>>Hello everyone and welcome back to Las Vegas. I've got my jazz hands because I am very jazzed to be here at AWS Reinvent Live from the show floor all week. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined with the infamous John Farer. John, how you feeling >>After feeling great? Love? What's going on here? The vibe is a cloud, cloud native. Lot of security conversation, data, stuff we love Cloud Native, >>M I >>A L, I mean big news. Security, security, data lake. I mean, who would've thought Amazon have a security data lake? You know, e k s, I mean >>You might have with that tweet you had out >>Inside outside the containers. Reminds me, it feels like coan here. >>It honestly, and there's a lot of overlap and it's interesting that you mention CubeCon because we talked to the next company when we were in Detroit just a couple weeks ago. Teleport E is the CEO and founder F Welcome to the show. How you doing? >>I'm doing well. Thank you for having me today. >>We feel very lucky to have you. We hosted Drew who works on the product marketing side of Teleport. Yeah, we got to talk caddies and golf last time on the show. We'll talk about some of your hobbies a little bit later, but just in case someone's tuning in, unfamiliar with Teleport, you're all about identity. Give us a little bit of a pitch, >>Little bit of our pitch. Teleport is the first identity native infrastructure access platform. It's used by engineers and it's used by machines. So notice that I used very specific choice of words first identity native, what does it mean? Identity native? It consists of three things and we're writing a book about those, but I'll let you know. Stay >>Tuned on that front. >>Exactly, yes, but I can talk about 'em today. So the first component of identity, native access is moving away from secrets towards true identity. The secrets, I mean things like passwords, private keys, browser cookies, session tokens, API keys, all of these things is secrets and they make you vulnerable. The point is, as you scale, it's absolutely impossible to protect all of the seekers because they keep growing and multiplying. So the probability of you getting hacked over time is high. So you need to get rid of secrets altogether that that's the first thing that we do. We use something called True Identity. It's a combination of your biometrics as well as identity of your machines. That's tpms, HSMs, Ubikes and so on, so forth. >>Go >>Ahead. The second component is Zero Trust. Like Teleport is built to not trust the network. So every resource inside of your data center automatically gets configured as if there is no perimeter it, it's as safe as it was on the public network. So that's the second thing. Don't trust the network. And the third one is that we keep access policy in one place. So Kubernetes clusters, databases on stage, rdp, all of these protocols, the access policy will be in one place. That's identity. Okay, >>So I'm, I'm a hacker. Pretend I'm a hacker. >>Easy. That sounds, >>That sounds really good to me. Yeah, I'm supposed to tell 'em you're hacker. Okay. I can go to one place and hack that. >>I get this question a lot. The thing is, you want centralization when it comes to security, think about your house being your AWS account. Okay? Everything inside your furniture, your valuable, like you'll watch collection, like that's your data, that's your servers, paper clusters, so and so forth. Right Now I have a choice and your house is in a really bad neighborhood. Okay, that's the bad internet. Do you wanna have 20 different doors or do you want to have one? But like amazing one, extremely secure, very modern. So it's very easy for you to actually maintain it and enforce policy. So the answer is, oh, you probably need to have >>One. And so you're designing security identity from a perspective of what's best for the security posture. Exactly. Sounds like, okay, so now that's not against the conventional wisdom of the perimeter's dead, the cloud's everywhere. So in a way kind of brings perimeter concepts into the posture because you know, the old model of the firewall, the moat >>It Yeah. Just doesn't scale. >>It doesn't scale. You guys bring the different solution. How do you fit into the new perimeters dead cloud paradigm? >>So the, the way it works that if you are, if you are using Teleport to access your infrastructure, let's just use for example, like a server access perspective. Like that machine that you're accessing doesn't listen on a network if it runs in Teleport. So instead Teleport creates this trusted outbound tunnels to the proxy. So essentially you are managing devices using out going connection. It's kind of like how your phone runs. Yeah. Like your phone is actually ultimate, it's like a teleport like, like I It's >>Like teleporting into your environment. >>Yeah, well play >>Journal. But >>Think about actually like one example of an amazing company that's true Zero trust that we're all familiar with would be Apple. Because every time you get a new iOS on your phone, the how is it different from Apple running massive software deployment into enormous cloud with billions of servers sprinkle all over the world without perimeter. How is it possible That's exactly the kind of technology that Teleports >>Gives you. I'm glad you clarified. I really wanted to get that out on the table. Cuz Savannah, this is, this is the paradigm shift around what an environment is Exactly. Did the Apple example, so, okay, tell 'em about customer traction. Are people like getting it right away? Are their teams ready? Are they go, oh my god this is >>Great. Pretty much you see we kinda lucky like in a, in a, like in this business and I'm walking around looking at all these successful startups, like every single one of them has a story about launching the right thing at just the right like moment. Like in technology, like the window to launch something is extremely short. Like months. I'm literally talking months. So we built Teleport started to work on it in like 2015. It was internal project, I believe it or not, also a famous example. It's really popular like internal project, put it on GitHub and it sat there relatively unnoticed for a while and then it just like took off around 2000 >>Because people start to feel the pain. They needed it. Exactly, >>Exactly. >>Yeah. The timing. Well and And what a great way to figure out when the timing is right? When you do something like that, put it on GitHub. Yeah. >>People >>Tell you what's up >>Yeah's Like a basketball player who can just like be suspended in the air over the hoop for like half the game and then finally his score and wins >>The game. Or video gamer who's lagged, everyone else is lagging and they got the latency thing. Exactly. Thing air. Okay. Talk about the engineering side. Cause I, I like this at co con, you mentioned it at the opening of this segment that you guys are for engineers, not it >>Business people. That's right. >>Explain that. Interesting. This is super important. Explain why and why that's resonating. >>So there is this ongoing shift on more and more responsibilities going to engineers. Like remember back in the day before we even had clouds, we had people actually racking servers, sticking cables into them, cutting their fingers, like trying to get 'em in. So those were not engineers, they were different teams. Yeah. But then you had system administrators who would maintain these machines for you. Now all of these things are done with code. And when these things are done with code and with APIs, that shifts to engineers. That is what Teleport does with policy. So if you want to have a set of rules that govern who or what and when under what circumstances can access what data like on Kubernetes, on databases, on, on servers wouldn't be nice to use code for it. So then you could use like a version control and you can keep track of changes. That's what teleport enables. Traditionally it preferred more kind of clicky graphical things like clicking buttons. And so it's just a different world, different way of doing it. So essentially if you want security as code, that's what Teleport provides and naturally this language resonates with this persona. >>Love that. Security is coding. It's >>A great term. Yeah. Love it. I wanna, I wanna, >>Okay. We coined it, someone else uses it on the show. >>We borrow it >>To use credit. When did you, when did you coin that? Just now? >>No, >>I think I coined it before >>You wanted it to be a scoop. I love that. >>I wish I had this story when I, I was like a, like a poor little 14 year old kid was dreaming about security code but >>Well Dave Ante will testify that I coined data as code before anyone else but it got 10 years ago. You >>Didn't hear it this morning. Jimmy actually brought it back up. Aws, you're about startups and he's >>Whoever came up with lisp programming language that had this concept that data and code are exact same thing, >>Right? We could debate nerd lexicon all day on the cube. In fact, that could even be a segment first >>Of we do. First of all, the fact that Lisp came up on the cube is actually a milestone because Lisp is a very popular language for object-oriented >>Grandfather of everything. >>Yes, yes, grandfather. Good, good. Good catch there. Yeah, well done. >>All right. I'm gonna bring us back. I wanna ask you a question >>Talking about nerd this LIS is really >>No, I think it's great. You know how nerdy we can get here though. I mean we can just hang out in the weeds the whole time. All right. I wanna ask you a question that I asked Drew when we were in Detroit just because I think for some folks and especially the audience, they may not have as distinctive a definition as y'all do. How do you define identity? >>Oh, that's a great question. So identity as a term was, it was always used for security purposes. But most people probably use identity in the context of single signon sso. Meaning that if your company uses identity for access, which instead of having each application have an account for you, like a data entry with your first name, last name emails and your role. Yeah. You instead have a central database, let's say Okta or something like that. Yep. And then you, you use that to access everything that's kind of identity based access because there is a single source of identity. What we say is that we, that needs to be extended because it it no longer enough because that identity can be stolen. So if someone gets access to your Okta account using your credentials, then they can become you. So in order for identity to be attached to you and become your true identity, you have to rely on physical world objects. That's biometrics your facial fingerprint, like your facial print, your fingerprints as well as biometric of your machine. Like your laptops have PPM modules on it. They're absolutely unique. They cannot be cloned stolen. So that is your identity as well. So if you combine whatever is in Octa with the biker chip in this laptop and with your finger that collectively is your true identity, which cannot be stolen. So it's can't be hacked. >>And someone can take my finger like they did in the movies. >>So they would have to do that. And they would also have to They'd >>Steal your match. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And they'd have to have your eyes >>And they have to, and you have >>Whatever the figure that far, they meant what >>They want. So that is what Drew identity is from telecom and >>Biometric. I mean it's, we're so there right now it's, it's really not an issue. It's only getting faster and better to >>Market. There is one important thing I said earlier that I want to go back to that I said that teleport is not just for engineers, it's also for machines. Cuz machines they also need the identity. So when we talk about access silos and that there are many different doors into your apartment, there are many different ways to access your data. So on the infrastructure side, machines are doing more and more. So we are offloading more and more tasks to them. That's a really good, what do machines use to access each other? Biome? They use API keys, they use private keys, they use basically passwords. Yeah. Like they're secrets and we already know that that's bad, right? Yeah. So how do you extend biometrics to machines? So this is why AWS offers cloud HSM service. HSM is secure hardware security module. That's a unique private key for the machine that is not accessible by anyone. And Teleport uses that to give identities to machines. Does do >>Customers have to enable that themselves or they have that part of a Amazon, the that >>Special. So it's available on aws. It's available actually in good old, like old bare metal machines that have HSMs on them on the motherboard. And it's optional by the way Teleport can work even if you don't have that capability. But the point is that we tried, you >>Have a biometric equivalent for the machines with >>Take advantage of it. Yeah. It's a hardware thing that you have to have and we all have it. Amazon sells it. AWS sells it to us. Yeah. And Teleport allows you to leverage that to enhance security of the infrastructure. >>So that classic hardware software play on that we're always talking about here on the cube. It's all, it's all important. I think this is really fascinating though. So I had an on the way to the show, I just enrolled in Clear and I had used a different email. I enrolled for the second time and my eyes wouldn't let me have two accounts. And this was the first time I had tried to sort of hack my own digital identity. And the girl, I think she was humoring me that was, was kindly helping me, the clear employee. But I think she could tell I was trying to mess with it and I wanted to see what would happen. I wanted to see if I could have two different accounts linked to my biometric data and I couldn't it, it picked it up right away. >>That's your true >>Identity. Yeah, my true identity. So, and forgive me cuz this is kind of just a personal question. It might be a little bit finger finger to the wind, but how, just how much more secure if you could, if you could give us a, a rating or a percentage or a a number. How much more secure is leveraging biometric data for identity than the secrets we've been using historically? >>Look, I could, I played this game with you and I can answer like infinitely more secure, right? Like but you know how security works that it all depends on implementation. So let's say you, you can deploy teleport, you can put us on your infrastructure, but if you're running, let's say like a compromised old copy of WordPress that has vulnerability, you're gonna get a hack through that angle. But >>Happens happens to my personal website all the time. You just touched Yeah, >>But the fact is that we, I I don't see how your credentials will be stolen in this system simply because your TPM on your laptop and your fingerprint, they cannot be downloaded. They like a lot of people actually ask us a slightly different question. It's almost the opposite of it. Like how can I trust you with my biometrics? When I use my fingerprint? That's my information. I don't want the company I work at to get my fingerprint people. I think it's a legit question to ask. >>Yeah. And it's >>What you, the answer to that question is your fingerprint doesn't really leave your laptop teleport doesn't see your fingerprint. What happens is when your fingerprint gets validated, it's it's your laptop is matching what's on the tpm. Basically Apple does it and then Apple simply tells teleport, yep that's F or whoever. And that's what we are really using. So when you are using this form authentication, you're not sharing your biometric with the company you work at. >>It's a machine to human confirmation first and >>Then it's it. It's basically you and the laptop agreeing that my fingerprint matches your TPM and if your laptop agrees, it's basically hardware does validation. So, and teleport simply gets that signal. >>So Ed, my final question for you is here at the show coupon, great conversations there for your company. What's your conversations here like at reinvent? Are you meeting with Amazon people, customers? What are some of the conversations? Because this is a much broader, I mean it's still technical. Yep. But you know, a lot of business kind of discussions, architectural refactoring of organizations. What are some of the things that you're talking about here with Telepo? What are, >>So I will mention maybe two trends I observed. The first one is not even security related. It's basically how like as a cloud becomes more mature, people now actually at different organizations develop their own internal ways of doing cloud properly. And they're not the same. Because when cloud was earlier, like there were this like best practices that everyone was trying to follow and there was like, there was just a maybe lack of expertise in the world and and now finding that different organizations just do things completely different. Like one, like for example, yeah, like some companies love having handful, ideally just one enormous Kubernetes cluster with a bunch of applications on it. And the other companies, they create Kubernetes clusters for different workloads and it's just like all over the map and both of them are believed that they're doing it properly. >>Great example of bringing in, that's Kubernetes with the complexity. And >>That's kind of one trend I'm noticing. And the second one is security related. Is that everyone is struggling with the access silos is that ideally every organization is dreaming about a day, but they have like one place which is which with great user experience that simply spells out this is what policy is to access this particular data. And it gets a automatically enforced by every single cloud provider, but every single application, but every single protocol, but every single resource. But we don't have that unfortunately Teleport is slowly becoming that, of course. Excuse me for plugging >>TelePro. No, no worries. >>But it is this ongoing theme that everyone is can't wait to have that single source of truth for accessing their data. >>The second person to say single source of truth on this stage in the last 24 >>Hours or nerds will love that. I >>Know I feel well, but it's all, it all comes back to that. I keep using this tab analogy, but we all want everything in one place. We don't wanna, we don't wanna have to be going all over the place and to look for >>Both. Because if it's and everything else places, it means that different teams are responsible for it. Yeah. So it becomes this kind of internal information silo as well. So you not even, >>And the risks and liabilities there, depending on who's overseeing everything. That's awesome. Right? So we have a new challenge on the cube specific to this show thing of this as your 30 minute or 30 minute that would be bold. 32nd sizzle reel, Instagram highlight. What is your hot take? Most important thing, biggest theme of the show this year. >>This year. Okay, so here's my thing. Like I want cloud to become something I want it to be. And every time I come here and I'm like, are we closer? Are we closer? So here's what I want. I want all cloud providers collectively to kind of merge. So then when we use them, it feels like we are programming one giant machine. Kind of like in the matrix, right? The movie. So like I want cloud to feel like a computer, like to have this almost intimate experience you have with your laptop. Like you can like, like do this and the laptop like performs the instructions. So, and it feels to me that we are getting closer. So like walking around here and seeing how everything works now, like on the single signon on from a security perspective, there is so that consolidation is finally happening. So it's >>The software mainframe we used to call it back in 2010. >>Yeah, yeah. Just kind of planetary scale thing. Yes. It's not the Zuckerberg that who's building metaverse, it's people here at reinvent. >>Unlimited resource for developers. Just call in. Yeah, yeah. Give me some resource, spin me up some, some compute. >>I would like alter that slightly. I would just basically go and do this and you shouldn't even worry about how it gets done. Just put instructions into this planetary mainframe and mainframe will go and figure this out. Okay. >>We gotta take blue or blue or red pill. I >>Know. I was just gonna say y'all, we are this, this, this, this segment is lit. >>We got made tricks. We got brilliant. We didn't get super cloud in here but we, we can weave that in. We got >>List. We just said it. So >>We got lisp. Oh great con, great conversation. Cloud native. >>Outstanding conversation. And thank you so much for being here. We love having teleport on the show. Obviously we hope to see you back again soon and and Drew as well. And thank all of you for tuning in this afternoon. Live from Las Vegas, Nevada, where we are hanging out at AWS Reinvent with John Furrier. I'm Savannah Peterson. This is the Cube. We are the source for high tech coverage.

>>How y'all doing? My name's Savannah Peterson, coming to you from Detroit, Michigan, where the cube is excited to be at Cube Con. Our guest this afternoon is a wonderfully brilliant woman who's been leading in the space for over eight years. Please welcome Gar Kapur. Gar, thanks for being with us. >>Well, thank you for having me to, It's a pleasure. Good >>To see you. So, update what's going on here? Co saw you at VMware Explorer. Yes. Welcome back to the Cube. Yes. What's, what's going on for you guys here? What's the message? What's the story >>Soupcon like I always say, it's our event, it's our audience. So, you know, Minayo, I dunno if you've been keeping track, Mani ha did reach like a billion docker downloads recently. So >>Congratulations. >>This is your tribe right here. Yes, >>It is. It is. Our >>Tribe's native infrastructure. Come on. Yes. >>You know, this audience understands us. We understand them. You know, you were asking when did we start the company? So we started in 2014, and if you see, Kubernetes was born in 2015 in all sorts of ways. So we kind of literally grew up together along with the Kubernetes journey. So all the decisions that we took were just, you know, making sure that we addressed the Kubernetes and the cloud native audiences, the first class citizens when it comes to storage. So I think that has been very instrumental in leading us up to the point where we have reached a billion docker downloads and we are the most loved object storage out >>There. So, So do you like your younger brother Kubernetes? Or not? Is this is It's a family that gets along. >>It does get along. I think in, in Kubernetes space, what we are seeing from customer standpoint as well, right? They're warming up to Kubernetes and you know, they are using Kubernetes as a framework to deploy anything at scale. And especially when you're, you know, offering storage as a service to your, whether it is for your internal audience or to the external audience, Kubernetes becomes extremely instrumental because it makes Multitenancy extremely easy. It makes, you know, access control points extremely easy for different user sets and so on. Yeah. So Kubernetes is definitely the way to go. I think enterprises need to just have little bit more skill set when it comes to Kubernetes overall, because I think there are still little bit areas in which they need to invest in, but I think this is the right direction, This is the right way. If you, if you want multi-tenant, you need Kubernetes for compute, you need Kubernetes for storage. So >>You guys hit an interesting spot here with Kubernetes. You have a product that targets builders. Yes. But also it's a service that's consumed. >>Yes. Yes. >>How do you see those two lanes shaping out as the world starts to grow, the ecosystems growing, You've got products for builders and products for people who are developers consuming services. How do you see that shaking out? Is just, is there intersections there? There is. You seem to be hitting that. >>There is. There is definitely an intersection. And I think it's getting merged because a lot of these users are the ones who dictate what kind of stack they want as part of their application ecosystem overall, right? So that is where, when an application, for example, in the big data workloads, right? They tell their IT or their storage department, this is the S3 compatible storage that they want their applications to run on or sit on. So the bridges definitely like becoming very narrow in that way from builders versus the service consumers overall. And I think, you know, at the end of the day, people need to get their job done from application users perspective. They want to just get in and get out. They don't want to deal with the underlying complexity when it comes to storage or any of the framework, right? So I think what we enable is for the builders to make sure they have extremely easy, simple, high performance software service that they can offer it to their customers, which is as three compatible. So now they can take their applications wherever they need to go, whether it is edge, whether it is on-prem, whether it is any of the public cloud, wherever you need to be, go be with it. With >>Mei, I mean, I wanna get your thoughts on a really big trend that's happening now. That's right. In your area of expertise. That is people are realizing that, hey, I don't necessarily need AWS S3 for storage. I gotta do my own storage or build my own. So there's a cost slash value for commodity storage. Yes. When does a company just dive to what to do there? Do they do their own? You see, CloudFlare, you seeing Wasabi, other companies? Yes. Merging. You guys are here. Yeah, yeah. Common services then there's a differentiator in the cloud. What's the, what's this all about? >>Yeah, so there are a couple of things going on in this space, right? So firstly, I think cloud model is the way to go. And what, what we mean by cloud is not public cloud, it's the cloud operating model overall, right? You need to build the applications the correct way so that they can consume cloud native infrastructure correctly. So I think that is what is going on. And secondly, I think cloud is great for your burst workloads. It's all about productivity. It's all about getting your applications to the market as fast as you can. And that is where of course, MIN IO comes into play when you know you can develop your applications natively on something like mania. And when, when you take it to production, it's very easy no matter where you go. And thirdly, I think when it comes to the cost perspective, you know, what we offer to the customers is predictability of the cost and no surprise in the builds when it comes, which is extremely important to like a CFO of a company because everyone knows that cloud is not the cheapest place to run your sustainable workloads. And there is unpredictability element involved because, you know, people leave their buckets on, people leave their compute nodes on it, it happens all the time. So I think if you take that uncertainty out of it and have more predictability around it, I think that is, that is where the true value lies. >>You're really hitting on a theme that we've been hearing a lot on the cube today, which is standardization, predictability. Yes. We, everyone always wants to move fast, but I think we're actually stepping away from that Mark Zuckerberg parity, move fast and break things and let's move fast, but know how much it's gonna cost and also decrease the complexity. Drugs >>Don't things. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And try, you know, minimize the collateral damage when Yeah. I, I love that you're enabling folks like that. How is, I'm curious because I see that your background, you have a PhD in philosophy, so we don't always see philosophy and DevOps and Kubernetes in the same conversation. Yeah. So how does this translate into your leadership within your team and the, And Min i's culture, >>So it's PhD in financial management and financial economics. So that is where my specialization lies. And I think after that I came to Bay Area. So once you're in Bay Area, you cannot escape technology. It is >>To you, >>It is just the way things are. You cannot escape startups, you cannot escape technology overall. So that's how I got introduced to it. And yeah, that it has been a great journey so far. And from the culture standpoint of view, you know, I always tell like if I can learn technology, anyone can learn technology. So what we look for is the right attitude, the right kind of, you know, passion to learn is what is most important in this world if you want to succeed. And that's what I tell everyone who joins the, who joins win I, two months, three months, you'll be up and going. I, I'm not too worried about it. >>But pet pedigree doesn't always play into it because no, the changing technology you could level up. So for sure you get into those and be contributing. >>I think one of the reasons why we have been successful the way we have been successful with storage is because we've not hired storage experts. Because they come with their own legacy and mindset of how to build things. And we are like, and we always came from a point of view, we are not a storage company. We are a data company and we want to be close to the data. So when you come to that mindset, you build a product directly attacking data, not just like, you know, in traditional appliance world and so on, so forth. So I think those things have been very instrumental in terms of getting the right people on board, making sure that they're very aligned with how we do things and you know, the dnf, the company's, >>That's for passion and that's actually counterintuitive, but it's makes sense. Yes. In new markets it doesn't always seem to take the boiler plate. Yes. Skill set or person. No, we're doing journalism, but we don't hire journalists. No, >>I mean you gotta be, It's adventurers. It is. It's curious. >>Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I, yeah, I think also, you know, for you to disrupt any space, you cannot approach it from how they approach the problem. You need to completely turn the tables upside down as they say, right? You need to disrupt it and have the surprise element. And I think that is what always makes a technology very special. You cannot follow the path that others have followed. You need to come from a different space, different mindset altogether. So that is where it's important that you, like you said, adventurous are the people >>That that is for sure. Talk to us about the company. Are you growing scaling? How do people find out more? >>Oh yeah, for sure. So people can find out more by visiting our website. Min dot i, we are growing. We just closed last year, end of last year we closed our CDC round unicorn valuation and so on, so forth. So >>She says unicorn valuation, so casually, I just wanna point that out, that, that, that, that's funny. Like a true strong female leader. I love that. I >>Love that. Thank you. Yes. So in terms of, you know, in terms of growth and scalability, we are growing the team. We are, you know, onboarding more commercial customers to the platform. So yeah, it's growth all across growth from the community standpoint, growth from commercial number standpoint. So congratulations. Yeah, thank you. >>Yeah, that's very exciting. Grma, thank you so much for being, >>Being with us. Thank you for >>Having me. Always. Thanks for hanging out and to all of you, thank you so much for tuning into the Cube, especially for this exciting edition for all of us here in Detroit, Michigan, where we're coming to you from Cuban. See you back here in a little bit.

[Music] hello everyone welcome back to the live coverage here in monaco for the monaco crypto summit i'm john furrier host of thecube uh we have a great great guest lineup here already in nine interviews small gathering of the influencers and the people making it happen powered by digital bits sponsored by digital bits presented by digital bits of course a lot happening around decentralization web 3 the metaverse we've got a a powerhouse influencer on the qb ryan gills the founder of openmeta been in the issue for a while ryan great to see you thanks for coming on great to be here thank you you know one of the things that we were observing earlier conversations is you have young and old coming together the best and brightest right now in the front line it's been there for a couple years you know get some hype cycles going on but that's normal in these early growth markets but still true north star is in play that is democratize remove the intermediaries create immutable power to the people the same kind of theme has been drum beating on now come the metaverse wave which is the nfts now the meta verses you know at the beginning of this next wave yeah this is where we're at right now what are you working on tell us what's what's open meta working on yeah i mean so there is a reason for all of this right i think we go through all these different cycles and there's an economic incentive engine and it's designed in because people really like making money but there's a deeper reason for it all and the words the buzzwords the terms they change based off of different cycles this one is a metaverse i just saw it a little early you know so i recognized the importance of an open metaverse probably in 2017 and really decided to dedicate 10 years to that um so we're very early into that decade and we're starting to see more of a movement building and uh you know i've catalyzed a lot of that from from the beginning and making sure that while everything moves to a closed corporate side of things there's also an equal bottom-up approach which i think is just more important and more interesting well first of all i want to give you a lot of props for seeing it early and recognizing the impact and potential collateral damage of not not having open and i was joking earlier about the facebook little snafu with the the exercise app and ftc getting involved and you know i kind of common new york times guy comment online like hey i remember aol wanted to monopolize dial up internet and look the open web obviously changed all that they went to sign an extinction not the same comparable here but you know everyone wants to have their own little walled guard and they feel comfortable first-party data the data business so balancing the benefit of data and all the ip that could come into whether it's a visualization or platform it has to be open without open then you're going to have fragmentation you're going to have all kinds of perverse incentives how does the metaverse continue with such big players like meta themselves x that new name for facebook you know big bully tons of cash you know looking to you know get their sins forgiven um so to speak i mean you got google probably will come in apple's right around the corner amazon you get the whales out there how do is it proprietary is walled garden the new proprietary how do you view all that because it's it's still early and so there's a lot of change can happen well it's an interesting story that's really playing out in three acts right we had the first act which was really truly open right there was this idea that the internet is for the end user this is all just networking and then web 2 came and we got a lot of really great business models from it and it got closed up you know and now as we enter this sort of third act we have the opportunity to learn from both of those right and so i think web 3 needs to go back to the values of web one with the lessons in hindsight of web 2. and all of the winners from web 2 are clearly going to want to keep winning in web 3. so you can probably guess every single company and corporation on earth will move into this i think most governments will move into it as well and um but they're not the ones that are leading it the ones that are leading it are are just it's a culture of people it's a movement that's building and accumulating over time you know it's weird it's uh the whole web 2 thing is the history is interesting because you know when i started my podcasting company in 2004 there's only like three of us you know the dave weiner me evan williams and jack dorsey and we thought and the blogging just was getting going and the dream was democratization at the time mainstream media was the enemy and then now blogs are media so and then all sudden it like maybe it was the 2008 area with the that recession it stopped and then like facebook came in obviously twitter was formed from the death of odio podcasting company so the moment in time in history was a glimmic glimmer of hope well we went under my company went under we all went under but then that ended and then you had the era of twitter facebook linkedin reddit was still around so it kind of stopped where did it where did it pick up was it the ethereum bitcoin and ethereum brought that back where'd the open come back well it's a generational thing if you if you go back to like you know apple as a startup they were trying to take down ibm right it was always there's always the bigger thing that was that we we're trying to sort of unbundle or unpackage because they have too much power they have too much influence and now you know facebook and apple and these big tech companies they are that on on the planet and they're doing it bigger than it's ever been done but when they were startups they existed to try to take that from a bigger company so i think you know it's not an it's not a fact that like facebook or zuckerberg is is the villain here it's just the fact that we're reaching peak centralization anything past this point it becomes more and more unhealthy right and an open metaverse is just a way to build a solution instead of more of a problem and i think if we do just allow corporations to build and own them on the metaverse these problems will get bigger and larger more significant they will touch more people on earth and we know what that looks like so why not try something different so what's the playbook what's the current architecture of the open meta verse that you see and how do people get involved is there protocols to be developed is there new things that are needed how does the architecture layout take us through that your mindset vision on that and then how can people get involved yeah so the the entity structure of what i do is a company called crucible out of the uk um but i i found out very quickly that just a purely for-profit closed company a commercial company won't achieve this objective there's limitations to that so i run a dao as well out of switzerland it's called open meta we actually we named it this six months before facebook changed their name and so this is just the track we're on right and what we develop is a protocol uh we believe that the internet built by game developers is how you define the metaverse and that protocol is in the dao it is in the dow it's that's crucial crucible protocol open meta okay you can think of crucible as labs okay no we're building we're building everything so incubator kind of r d kind of thing exactly yeah and i'm making the choice to develop things and open them up create public goods out of them harness things that are more of a bottom-up approach you know and what we're developing is the emergence protocol which is basically defining the interface between the wallets and the game engines right so you have unity and unreal which all the game developers are sort of building with and we have built software that drops into those game engines to map ownership between the wallet and the experience in the game so integration layer basically between the wallet kind of how stripe is viewed from a software developer's campaign exactly but done on open rails and being done for a skill set of world building that is coming and game developers are the best suited for this world building and i like to own what i built yeah i don't like other people to own what i build and i think there's an entire generation that's that's really how do you feel about the owning and sharing component is that where you see the scale coming into play here i can own it and scale it through the relationship of the open rails yeah i mean i think the truth is that the open metaverse will be a smaller network than even one corporate virtual world for a while because these companies have billions of people right yeah every room you've ever been in on earth people are using two or three of facebook's products right they just have that adoption but they don't have trust they don't have passion they don't have the movement that you see in web3 they don't have the talent the level of creative talent those people care about owning what they create on the on what can someone get involved with question is that developer is that a sponsor what do people do to get involved with do you and your team and to make it bigger i mean it shouldn't be too small so if this tracks you can assume it gets bigger if you care about an open metaverse you have a seat at the table if you become a member of the dao you have a voice at the table you can make decisions with us we are building developing technology that can be used openly so if you're a game developer and you use unity or unreal we will open the beta this month later and then we move directly into what's called a game jam so a global hackathon for game developers where we just go through a giant exploration of what is possible i mean you think about gaming i always said the early adopters of all technology and the old web one was porn and that was because they were they were agnostic of vendor pitches or whatever is it made money they've worked we don't tell them we've always been first we don't tolerate vaporware gaming is now the new area where it is so the audience doesn't want vapor they want it to work they want technology to be solid they want community so it's now the new arbiter so gaming is the pretext to metaverse clearly gaming is swallowing all of media and probably most of the world and this game mechanics under the hood and all kinds of underlying stuff now how does that shape the developer community so like take the classic software developer may not be a game developer how do they translate over you seeing crossover from the software developers that are out there to be game developers what's your take on that it's an interesting question because i come to a lot of these events and the entire web 3 movement is web developers it's in the name yeah right and we have a whole wave of exploration and nfts being sold of people who really love games they're they're players they're gamers and they're fans of games but they are not in the skill set of game development this is a whole discipline yeah it's a whole expertise right you have to understand ik retargeting rigging bone meshes and mapping of all of that stuff and environment building and rendering and all these things it's it's a stacked skill set and we haven't gone through any exploration yet with them that is the next cycle that we're going to and that's what i've spent the last three or four years preparing for yeah and getting the low code is going to be good i was saying earlier to the young gun we had on his name was um oscar belly he's argo versus he's 25 years old he's like he made a quote i'm too old to get into esports like 22 old 25 come on i'd love to be in esports i was commenting that there could be someone sitting next to us in the metaverse here on tv on our digital tv program in the future that's going to be possible the first party citizenship between physical experience absolutely and meta versus these cameras all are a layer in which you can blend the two yeah so that that's that's going to be coming sooner and it's really more of the innovation around these engines to make it look real and have someone actually moving their body not like a stick figure yes or a lego block this is where most people have overlooked because what you have is you have two worlds you have web 3 web developers who see this opportunity and are really going for it and then you have game developers who are resistant to it for the most part they have not acclimated to this but the game developers are more of the keys to it because they understand how to build worlds yeah they do they understand how to build they know what success looks like they know what success looks like if you if you talk about the metaverse with anyone the most you'll hear is ready player one yeah maybe snow crash but those things feel like games yeah right so the metaverse and gaming are so why are game developers um like holding back is because they're like ah it's too not ready yet i'm two more elite or is it more this is you know this is an episode on its own yeah um i'm actually a part of a documentary if you go to youtube and you say why gamers hate nfts there's a two-part documentary about an hour long that robin schmidt from the defiant did and it's really a very good deep dive into this but i think we're just in a moment in time right now if you remember henry ford when he he produced the car everybody wanted faster horses yeah they didn't understand the cultural shift that was happening they just wanted an incremental improvement right and you can't say that right now because it sounds arrogant but i do believe that this is a moment in time and i think once we get through this cultural shift it will be much more clear why it's important it's not pure speculation yeah it's not clout it's not purely money there's something happening that's important for humanity yeah and if we don't do it openly it will be more of a problem yeah i totally agree with you on that silent impact is number one and people some people just don't see it because it's around the corner visionaries do like yourselves we do my objective over the next say three to six months is to identify which game developers see the value in web 3 and are leaning into it because we've built technology that solves interoperability between engines mapping ownership from wallets all the sort of blueprints that are needed in order for a game developer to build this way we've developed that we just need to identify where are they right because the loudest voices are the ones that are pushing back against this yeah and if you're not on twitter you don't see how many people really see this opportunity and i talked to epic and unity and nvidia and they all agree that this is where the future is going but the one question mark is who wants it where are they you know it's interesting i talked to lauren besel earlier she's from the music background we were talking about open source and how music i found that is not open it's proprietary i was talking about when i was in college i used to deal software you'd be like what do you mean deal well at t source code was proprietary and that started the linux movement in the 80s that became a systems revolution and then open source then just started to accelerate now people like it's free software is like not a big deal everyone knows it's what it was never proprietary but we were fighting the big proprietary code bases you mentioned that earlier is there a proprietary thing for music well not really because it's licensed rights right so in the metaverse who's the proprietary is it the walled garden is the is it is it the gamers so is it the consoles is it the investment that these gaming companies have in the software itself so i find that that open source vibe is very much circulating around your world actually open maps in the word open but open source software has a trajectory you know foundations contributors community building same kind of mindset music not so much because no one's it's not direct comparable but i think here it's interesting the gaming culture could be that that proprietary ibm the the state the playstation the xbox you know if you dive into the modding community right the modding community has sort of been this like gray area of of gaming and they will modify games that already exist but they do it with the values of open source they do it with composability and there's been a few breakthroughs counter-strike is a mod right some of the largest games of all time came from mods of other games look at quake had a comeback i played first multiplayer doom when it came out in the 90s and that was all mod based exactly yeah quake and quake was better but you know i remember the first time on a 1.5 cable mode and playing with my friends remember vividly now the graphics weren't that good but that was mod it's mod so then you go i mean and then you go into these other subcultures like dungeons and dragons which was considered to be such a nerdy thing but it's just a deeply human thing it's a narrative building collective experience like these are all the bottom-up type approaches modding uh world building so you're going to connect so i'm just kind of thinking out loud here you're going to connect the open concept of source with open meta bring game developers and software drills together create a fabric of a baseline somewhat somewhat collected platform tooling and components and let it just sell form see what happens better self form that's your imposing composability is much faster yeah than a closed system and you got what are your current building blocks you have now you have the wallet and you have so we built an sdk on both unity and unreal okay as a part of a system that is a protocol that plugs into those two engines and we have an inventory service we have an avatar system we basically kind of leaned into this idea of a persona being the next step after a pfp so so folks that are out there girls and boys who are sitting there playing games they could build their own game on this thing absolutely this is the opportunity for them entrepreneurs to circumvent the system and go directly with open meta and build their own open environment like i said before i i like to own the things i built i've had that entrepreneurial lesson but i don't think in the future you should be so okay with other companies or other intermediaries owning you and what you build i think i mean opportunity to build value yeah and i think i think your point the mod culture is not so much going to be the answer it's what that was like the the the the dynamic of modding yes is developing yes and then therefore you get the benefit of sovereign identity yeah you get the benefit of unbanking that's not the way we market this but those are benefits that come along with it and it allows you to live a different life and may the better product win yeah i mean that's what you're enabling yeah ryan thanks so much for coming on real final question what's going on here why are we here in monaco what's going on this is the inaugural event presented by digital bits why are we here monaco crypto summit i'm here uh some friends of mine brittany kaiser and and lauren bissell invited me here yeah i've known al for for a number of years and i'm just here to support awesome congratulations and uh we'll keep in touch we'll follow up on the open meta great story we love it thanks for coming on okay cube coverage continues here live in monaco i'm john furrier and all the action here on the monaco crypto summit love the dame come back next year it'll be great back with more coverage to wrap up here on the ground then the yacht club event we're going to go right there as well that's in a few hours so we're going to be right back [Music] you

>>From the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas. It's the cube covering UI path forward for brought to you by UI path. >>Good morning. Welcome to the cubes coverage of UI path forward for day two. Live from the Bellagio in Las Vegas. I'm Lisa Martin with Dave Velante, Dave. We had a great action packed day yesterday. We're going to have another action packed day today. We've got the CEO coming on. We've got customers coming on, but there's been a lot in the news last 24 hours. Facebook, what are your thoughts? >>Yeah, so wall street journal today, headline Facebook hearing fuels call for rain in on big tech. All right, everybody's going after big tech. Uh, for those of you who missed it, 60 minutes had a, uh, an interview with the whistleblower. Her name is, uh, Francis Haugen. She's very credible, just a little background. I'll give you my take. I mean, she was hired to help set Facebook straight and protect privacy of individuals, of children. And I really feel like, again, she, she didn't come across as, as bitter or antagonistic, but, but I feel as though she feels betrayed, right, I think she was hired to do a job. They lured her in to say, Hey, this is again, just my take to say, Hey, we want your help in earnest to protect the privacy of our users, our citizens, et cetera. And I think she feels betrayed because she's now saying, listen, this is not cool. >>You hired us to do a job. We in earnest, went in and tried to solve this problem. And you guys kind of ignored it and you put profit ahead of safety. And I think that is the fundamental crux of this. Now she made a number of really good points in her hearing yesterday and I'll, and we'll try to summarize, I mean, there's a lot of putting advertising revenue ahead of children's safety and, and, and others. The examples they're using are during the 2020 election, they shut down any sort of negative conversations. They would be really proactive about that, but after the election, they turned it back on and you know, we all know what happened on January 6th. So there's sort of, you know, the senators are trying that night. Um, the second thing is she talked about Facebook as a wall garden, and she made the point yesterday at the congressional hearings that Google actually, you can data scientists, anybody can go download all the data that Google has on you. >>You and I can do that. Right? There's that website that we've gone to and you look at all the data Google has and you kind of freak out. Yeah, you can't do that with Facebook, right? It's all hidden. So it's kind of this big black box. I will say this it's interesting. The calls for breaking up big tech, Bernie Sanders tweeted something out yesterday said that, uh, mark Zuckerberg was worth, I don't know. I think 9 billion in 2007 or eight or nine, whatever it was. And he's worth 122 billion today, which of course is mostly tied up in Facebook stock, but still he's got incredible wealth. And then Bernie went on his red it's time to break up big tech. It's time to get people to pay their fair share, et cetera. I'm intrigued that the senators don't have as much vigilance around other industries, whether it's big pharma, food companies addicting children to sugar and the like, but that doesn't let Facebook. >>No, it doesn't, but, but you ha you bring up a good point. You and I were chatting about this yesterday. What the whistleblower is identifying is scary. It's dangerous. And the vast majority, I think of its users, don't understand it. They're not aware of it. Um, and why is big tech being maybe singled out and use as an example here, when, to your point, you know, the addiction to sugar and other things are, uh, have very serious implications. Why is big tech being singled out here as the poster child for what's going wrong? >>Well, and they're comparing it to big tobacco, which is the last thing you want to be compared to as big tobacco. But the, but the, but the comparison is, is valid in that her claim, the whistleblower's claim was that Facebook had data and research that it knew, it knows it's hurting, you know, you know, young people. And so what did it do? It created, you know, Instagram for kids, uh, or it had 600,000. She had another really interesting comment or maybe one of the senators did. Facebook said, look, we scan our records and you know, kids lie. And we, uh, we kicked 600,000 kids off the network recently who were underaged. And the point was made if you have 600,000 people on your network that are underage, you have to go kill. That's a problem. Right? So now the flip side of this, again, trying to be balanced is Facebook shut down Donald Trump and his nonsense, uh, and basically took him off the platform. >>They kind of thwarted all the hunter Biden stuff, right. So, you know, they did do some, they did. It's not like they didn't take any actions. Uh, and now they're up, you know, in front of the senators getting hammered. But I think the Zuckerberg brings a lot of this on himself because he put out an Instagram he's on his yacht, he's drinking, he's having fun. It's like he doesn't care. And he, you know, who knows, he probably doesn't. She also made the point that he owns an inordinate percentage and controls an inordinate percentage of the stock, I think 52% or 53%. So he can kind of do what he wants. And I guess, you know, coming back to public policy, there's a lot of narrative of, I get the billionaires and I get that, you know, the Mo I'm all for billionaires paying more taxes. >>But if you look at the tax policies that's coming out of the house of representatives, it really doesn't hit the billionaires the way billionaires can. We kind of know the way that they protect their wealth is they don't sell and they take out low interest loans that aren't taxed. And so if you look at the tax policies that are coming out, they're really not going after the billionaires. It's a lot of rhetoric. I like to deal in facts. And so I think, I think there's, there's a lot of disingenuous discourse going on right now at the same time, you know, Facebook, they gotta, they gotta figure it out. They have to really do a better job and become more transparent, or they are going to get broken up. And I think that's a big risk to the, to their franchise and maybe Zuckerberg doesn't care. Maybe he just wants to give it a, give it to the government, say, Hey, are you guys are on? It >>Happens. What do you think would happen with Amazon, Google, apple, some of the other big giants. >>That's a really good question. And I think if you look at the history of the us government, in terms of ant anti monopolistic practices, it spent decade plus going after IBM, you know, at the end of the day and at the same thing with Microsoft at the end of the day, and those are pretty big, you know, high profiles. And then you look at, at T and T the breakup of at T and T if you take IBM, IBM and Microsoft, they were slowed down by the U S government. No question I've in particular had his hands shackled, but it was ultimately their own mistakes that caused their problems. IBM misunderstood. The PC market. It gave its monopoly to Intel and Microsoft, Microsoft for its part. You know, it was hugging windows. They tried to do the windows phone to try to jam windows into everything. >>And then, you know, open source came and, you know, the world woke up and said, oh, there's this internet that's built on Linux. You know, that kind of moderated by at T and T was broken up. And then they were the baby bells, and then they all got absorbed. And now you have, you know, all this big, giant telcos and cable companies. So the history of the U S government in terms of adjudicating monopolistic behavior has not been great at the same time. You know, if companies are breaking the law, they have to be held accountable. I think in the case of Amazon and Google and apple, they, a lot of lawyers and they'll fight it. You look at what China's doing. They just cut right to the chase and they say, don't go to the, they don't litigate. They just say, this is what we're doing. >>Big tech, you can't do a, B and C. We're going to fund a bunch of small startups to go compete. So that's an interesting model. I was talking to John Chambers about this and he said, you know, he was flat out that the Western way is the right way. And I believe in, you know, democracy and so forth. But I think if, to answer your question, I think they'll, they'll slow it down in courts. And I think at some point somebody's going to figure out a way to disrupt these big companies. They always do, you know, >>You're right. They always do >>Right. I mean, you know, the other thing John Chambers points out is that he used to be at 1 28, working for Wang. There is no guarantee that the past is prologue that because you succeeded in the past, you're going to succeed in the future. So, so that's kind of the Facebook break up big tech. I'd like to see a little bit more discussion around, you know, things like food companies and the, like >>You bring up a great point about that, that they're equally harmful in different ways. And yet they're not getting the visibility that a Facebook is getting. And maybe that's because of the number of users that it has worldwide and how many people depend on it for communication, especially in the last 18 months when it was one of the few channels we had to connect and engage >>Well. And, and the whistleblower's point, Facebook puts out this marketing narrative that, Hey, look at all this good we're doing in reality. They're all about the, the, the advertising profits. But you know, I'm not sure what laws they're breaking. They're a public company. They're, they're, they have a responsibility to shareholders. So that's, you know, to be continued. The other big news is, and the headline is banks challenge, apple pay over fees for transactions, right? In 2014, when apple came up with apple pay, all the banks lined up, oh, they had FOMO. They didn't want to miss out on this. So they signed up. Now. They don't like the fact that they have to pay apple fees. They don't like the fact that apple introduced its own credit card. They don't like the fact that they have to pay fees on monthly recurring charges on your, you know, your iTunes. >>And so we talked about this and we talk about it a lot on the cube is that, that in, in, in, in his book, seeing digital David, Michelle, or the author talked about Silicon valley broadly defined. So he's including Seattle, Microsoft, but more so Amazon, et cetera, has a dual disruption agenda. They're not only trying to disrupt horizontally the technology industry, but they're also disrupting industry. We talked about this yesterday, apple and finances. The example here, Amazon, who was a bookseller got into cloud and is in grocery and is doing content. And you're seeing these a large companies, traverse industry value chains, which have historically been very insulated right from that type of competition. And it's all because of digital and data. So it's a very, pretty fascinating trends going on. >>Well, from a financial services perspective, we've been seeing the unbundling of the banks for a while. You know, the big guys with B of A's, those folks are clearly concerned about the smaller, well, I'll say the smaller FinTech disruptors for one, but, but the non FinTech folks, the apples of the world, for example, who aren't in that industry who are now to your point, disrupting horizontally and now going after individual specific industries, ultimately I think as consumers we want, whatever is going to make our lives easier. Um, do you ever, ever, I always kind of scratch my nose when somebody doesn't take apple pay, I'm like, you don't take apple pay so easy. It's so easy to make this easy for me. >>Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out. I, I do think, um, you know, it begs the question when will banks or Willbanks lose control of the payment systems. They seem to be doing that already with, with alternative forms of payment, uh, whether it's PayPal or Stripe or apple pay. And then crypto is, uh, with, with, with decentralized finance is a whole nother topic of disruption and innovation, >>Right? Well, these big legacy institutions, these organizations, and we've spoke with some of them yesterday, we're going to be speaking with some of them today. They need to be able to be agile, to transform. They have to have the right culture in order to do that. That's the big one. They have to be willing. I think an open to partner with the broader ecosystem to unlock more opportunities. If they want to be competitive and retain the trust of the clients that they've had for so long. >>I think every industry has a digital disruption scenario. We used to always use the, don't get Uber prized example Uber's coming on today, right? And, and there isn't an industry, whether it's manufacturing or retail or healthcare or, or government that isn't going to get disrupted by digital. And I think the unique piece of this is it's it's data, data, putting data at the core. That's what the big internet giants have done. That's what we're hearing. All these incumbents try to do is to put data. We heard this from Coca-Cola yesterday, we're putting data at the core of our company and what we're enabling through automation and other activities, uh, digital, you know, a company. And so, you know, can these, can these giants, these hundred plus year old giants compete? I think they can because they don't have to invent AI. They can work with companies like UI path and embed AI into their business and focused on, on what they do best. Now, of course, Google and Amazon and Facebook and Microsoft there may be going to have the best AI in the world. But I think ultimately all these companies are on a giant collision course, but the market is so huge that I think there's a lot of, >>There's a tremendous amount of opportunity. I think one of the things that was exciting about talking to one, the female CIO of Coca-Cola yesterday, a hundred plus old organization, and she came in with a very transformative, very different mindset. So when you see these, I always appreciate when I say legacy institutions like Coca-Cola or Merck who was on yesterday, blue cross blue shield who's on today, embracing change, cultural change going. We can't do things the way we used to do, because there are competitors in that review mirror who are smaller, they're more nimble, they're faster. They're going to be, they're going to take our customers away from us. We have to deliver this exceptional customer and employee experience. And Coca-Cola is a great example of one that really came in with CA brought in a disruptor in order to align digital with the CEO's thoughts and processes and organization. These are >>Highly capable companies. We heard from the head of finance at, at applied materials today. He was also coming on. I was quite, I mean, this is a applied materials is really strong company. They're talking about a 20 plus billion dollar company with $120 billion market cap. They supply semiconductor equipment and they're a critical component of the semiconductor supply chain. And we all know what's going on in semiconductors today with a huge shortage. So they're a really important company, but I was impressed with, uh, their finance leaders vision on how they're transforming the company. And it was not like, you know, 10 years out, these were not like aspirational goals. This is like 20, 19, 20, 22. Right. And, and really taking costs out of the business, driving new innovation. And, and it's, it was it's, it's refreshing to me Lisa, to see CFOs, you know, typically just bottom line finance focused on these industry transformations. Now, of course, at the end of the day, it's all about the bottom line, but they see technology as a way to get there. In fact, he put technology right in the middle of his stack. I want to ask him about that too. I actually want to challenge him a little bit on it because he had that big Hadoop elephant in the middle and this as an elephant in the room. And that picture, >>The strategy though, that applied materials had, it was very well thought out, but it was also to your point designed to create outcomes year upon year upon year. And I was looking at some of the notes. I took that in year one, alone, 274 automations in production. That's a lot, 150,000 in annual work hours automated 124 use cases they tackled in one year. >>So I want to, I want to poke at that a little bit too. And I, and I did yesterday with some guests. I feel like, well, let's see. So, um, I believe it was, uh, I forget what guests it was, but she said we don't put anything forward that doesn't hit the income statement. Do you remember that? Yes, it was Chevron because that was pushing her. I'm like, well, you're not firing people. Right. And we saw from IDC data today, only 13% of organizations are saying, or, or, or the organizations at 13% of the value was from reduction in force. And a lot of that was probably in plan anyway, and they just maybe accelerated it. So they're not getting rid of headcount, but they're counting hours saved. So that says to me, there's gotta be an normally or often CFOs say, well, it's that soft dollars because we're redeploying folks. But she said, no, it hits the income statement. So I don't, I want to push a little bit and see how they connect the dots, because if you're going to save hours, you're going to apply people to new work. And so either they're generating revenue or cutting costs somewhere. So, so there's another layer that I want to appeal to understand how that hits the income state. >>Let's talk about some of that IDC data. They announced a new white paper this morning sponsored by UI path. And I want to get your perspectives on some of the stats that they talked about. They were painting a positive picture, an optimistic picture. You know, we can't talk about automation without talking about the fear of job loss. They've been in a very optimistic picture for the actual gains over a few year period. What are your thoughts about that? Especially when we saw that stat 41% slowed hiring. >>Yeah. So, well, first of all, it's a sponsored study. So, you know, and of course the conferences, so it's going to be, be positive, but I will say this about IDC. IDC is a company I would put, you know, forest they're similar. They do sponsored research and they're credible. They don't, they, they have the answer to their audience, so they can't just out garbage. And so it has to be defensible. So I give them credit there that they won't just take whatever the vendor wants them to write and then write it. I've used to work there. And I, and I know the culture and there's a great deal of pride in being able to defend what you do. And if the answer doesn't come out, right, sorry, this is the answer. You know, you could pay a kill fee or I dunno how they handle it today. >>But, but, so my point is I think, and I know the people who did that study, many of them, and I think they're pretty credible. I, I thought by the way, you, to your 41% point. So the, the stat was 13% are gonna reduce head count, right? And then there were two in the middle and then 41% are gonna reduce or defer hiring in the future. And this to me, ties into the Erik Brynjolfsson and, and, and, uh, and, and McAfee work. Andy McAfee work from MIT who said, look, initially actually made back up. They said, look at machines, have always replaced humans. Historically this was in their book, the second machine age and what they said was, but for the first time in history, machines are replacing humans with cognitive functions. And this is sort of, we've never seen this before. It's okay. That's cool. >>And their, their research suggests that near term, this is going to be a negative economic impact, sorry, negative impact on jobs and salaries. And we've, we've generally seen this, the average salary, uh, up until recently has been flat in the United States for years and somewhere in the mid fifties. But longterm, their research shows that, and this is consistent. I think with IDC that it's going to help hiring, right? There's going to be a boost buddy, a net job creator. And there's a, there's a, there's a chasm you've got across, which is education training and skill skillsets, which Brynjolfsson and McAfee focused on things that humans can do that machines can't. And you have this long list and they revisited every year. Like they used to be robots. Couldn't walk upstairs. Well, you see robots upstairs all the time now, but it's empathy, it's creativity. It's things like that. >>Contact that humans are, are much better at than machines, uh, even, even negotiations. And, and so, so that's, those are skills. I don't know where you get those skills. Do you teach those and, you know, MBA class or, you know, there's these. So their point is there needs to be a new thought process around education, public policy, and the like, and, and look at it. You can't protect the past from the future, right? This is inevitable. And we've seen this in terms of economic activity around the world countries that try to protect, you know, a hundred percent employment and don't let competition, they tend to fall behind competitively. You know, the U S is, is not of that category. It's an open market. So I think this is inevitable. >>So a lot about upskilling yesterday, and the number of we talked with PWC about, for example, about what they're doing and a big focus on upscaling. And that was part of the IDC data that was shared this morning. For example, I'll share a stat. This was a survey of 518 people. 68% of upscaled workers had higher salaries than before. They also shared 57% of upskilled workers had higher roles and their enterprises then before. So some, again, two point it's a sponsored study, so it's going to be positive, but there, there was a lot of discussion of upskilling yesterday and the importance on that education, because to your point, we can't have one without the other. You can't give these people access to these tools and not educate them on how to use it and help them help themselves become more relevant to the organization. Get rid of the mundane tasks and be able to start focusing on more strategic business outcome, impacting processes. >>We talked yesterday about, um, I use the example of, of SAP. You, you couldn't have predicted SAP would have won the ERP wars in the early to mid 1990s, but if you could have figured out who was going to apply ERP to their businesses, you know what, you know, manufacturing companies and these global firms, you could have made a lot of money in the stock market by, by identifying those that were going to do that. And we used to say the same thing about big data, and the reason I'm bringing all this up is, you know, the conversations with PWC, Deloitte and others. This is a huge automation, a huge services opportunity. Now, I think the difference between this and the big data era, which is really driven by Hadoop is it was big data was so complicated and you had a lack of data scientists. >>So you had to hire these services firms to come in and fill those gaps. I think this is an enormous services opportunity with automation, but it's not because the software is hard to get to work. It's all around the organizational processes, rethinking those as people process technology, it's about the people in the process, whereas Hadoop and the big data era, it was all about the tech and they would celebrate, Hey, this stuff works great. There are very few companies really made it through that knothole to dominate as we've seen with the big internet giants. So you're seeing all these big services companies playing in this market because as I often say, they like to eat at the trough. I know it's kind of a pejorative, but it's true. So it's huge, huge market, but I'm more optimistic about the outcomes for a broader audience with automation than I was with, you know, big data slash Hadoop, because I think the software as much, as much more adoptable, easier to use, and you've got the cloud and it's just a whole different ball game. >>That's certainly what we heard yesterday from Chevron about the ease of use and that you should be able to see results and returns very quickly. And that's something too that UI path talks about. And a lot of their marketing materials, they have a 96, 90 7% retention rate. They've done a great job building their existing customers land and expand as we talked about yesterday, a great use case for that, but they've done so by making things easy, but hearing that articulated through the voice of their customers, fantastic validation. >>So, you know, the cube is like a little, it's like a interesting tip of the spirits, like a probe. And I will tell you when I, when we first started doing the cube and the early part of the last decade, there were three companies that stood out. It was Splunk service now and Tableau. And the reason they stood out is because they were able to get customers to talk about how great they were. And the light bulb went off for us. We were like, wow, these are three companies to watch. You know, I would tell all my wall street friends, Hey, watch these companies. Yeah. And now you see, you know, with Frank Slootman at snowflake, the war, the cat's out of the bag, everybody knows it's there. And they're expecting, you know, great things. The stock is so priced to perfection. You could argue, it's overpriced. >>The reason I'm bringing this up is in terms of customer loyalty and affinity and customer love. You're getting it here. Absolutely this ecosystem. And the reason I bring that up is because there's a lot of questions in the, in the event last night, it was walking around. I saw a couple of wall street guys who came up to me and said, Hey, I read your stuff. It was good. Let's, let's chat. And there's a lot of skepticism on, on wall street right now about this company. Right? And to me, that's, that's good news for you. Investors who want to do some research, because the words may be not out. You know, they, they, they gotta prove themselves here. And to me, the proof is in the customer and the lifetime value of that customer. So, you know, again, we don't give stock advice. We, we kind of give fundamental observations, but this stock, I think it's trading just about 50. >>Now. I don't think it's going to go to 30, unless the market just tanks. It could have some, you know, if that happens, okay, everything will go down. But I actually think, even though this is a richly priced stock, I think the future of this company is very bright. Obviously, if they continue to execute and we're going to hear from the CEO, right? People don't know Daniel, Denise, right? They're like, who is this guy? You know, he started this company and he's from Eastern Europe. And we know he's never have run a public company before, so they're not diving all in, you know? And so that to me is something that really pay attention to, >>And we can unpack that with him later today. And we've got some great customers on the program. You mentioned Uber's here. Spotify is here, applied materials. I feel like I'm announcing something on Saturday night. Live Uber's here. Spotify is here. All right, Dave, looking forward to a great action packed today. We're going to dig more into this and let's get going. Shall we let's do it. All right. For David Dante, I'm Lisa Martin. This is the cube live in Las Vegas. At the Bellagio. We are coming to you presenting UI path forward for come back right away. Our first guest comes up in just a second.

>>mhm >>Hello and welcome to this cube conversation here in Palo alto California, I'm john for a year host of the cube, we're here with a great guest Jt gear, Ceo and founder and ops Hot Startup. Jt Welcome to the cube conversation. >>Hey, that sound, thanks for having me. It sounds like we know each other, we used to run into each other at meat out. So yeah, >>it's fun to talk to you because I know you're, you know, scratching the devops it from the beginning before devops was devops before infrastructure of code was infrastructure as code. All that's played out. So it's really a great ride. I know you had a good time doing it a lot of action though. If you look at devops it's kind of like this new, I won't say devops two point because it kind of cliche but you're starting to see the mature ization of companies besides the early adopters and the people who are hardcore adopting and they realize this is amazing and then they? Re platform in the cloud and they go great, let's do more and next thing, you know, they have an operations issue and they got a really kind of stabilize and then also not break anything. So this is kind of the wheelhouse of what you guys are doing in ops reminds me of no ops, no operations, you know, we don't want to have a lot of extra stuff. This is a big thing. Take a but take them in to explain the company, you're what you guys stand for and what you're all about. >>Yeah, so you know, our main focus is more on the operation side, so, you know the reason why you move to cloud or the reason why you have devops practices, you want to go fast. Um but you know when you're building cloud infrastructure, you have to make trade offs right? You have to maybe some environment, maybe you have to optimize for S L A. And maybe another workload, you have to optimize for um you know, maybe costs, right? So what we're on a mission to do is to make sure that companies are able to make the right trade offs, right? We help companies to make sure all their workload, every single resource in the cloud is aligned with the business needs, you know, so we do a lot of cool things by like, you know, bringing accountability mapping and we're close to different genes. But yeah, the end goal is, can we make sure that every single resource on data Bs is aligned with the business needs >>and they're also adding stuff. Every reinvent zillion more services get announced. So a lot, a lot of stuff going on, I gotta ask you while I got you here, what is the definition of cloud apps these days, from your standpoint and why is it important? A lot of folks are looking at this and they want to have stable operations. They love the cloud really can't deny the cloud value at all. But cloud ops has become a big topic. What is cloud apps and why is it important. >>Right? I mean, first of all, Like you just mentioned, right? Like Amazon keeps on launching more services. It's over 200. So the environment is very complex, Right? And then mm complexity within the services is uh pretty uh you really need to be the main expert for example, know everything about do So, you know, our question to us is, let's say if you find a critical issue, uh let's say you want to uh you know, enable multi AZ on your RDS for example. Uh and it's critical because you know, you're running a uh high availability workloads on AWS. How do you follow up on that right to us. Operation is how do you build a cloud backlog? How do you prioritize, how do you come together as a team to actually remediate those issues? No one is tackling that job, everyone's surfaces like, hey, here's 1000 things that are wrong with your environment. No one is focused on like how do you go from these issues to prioritization to backlog to actually coming together as a team. You know, I've been fixing some of those issues. That's that's what operation means is >>I know it's totally hard because sometimes I don't even know what's going on. I gotta ask you why, why is it harder now? Why are people, I mean I get the impression that people like looking the other way? I hope it goes the problem kind of goes away. What are the challenges? What's the big blocker from getting at the root cause or trying to solve these problems? What's the big thing that's holding people back? >>Yeah, I mean, when I first got into, you know, I t you know, I was working in data center and every time we needed a server, you know, we have to ask for approvals, right? And you finally got a server, but nowadays anyone could provision resources. And normally you have different people within the team's provisioning resources and you can have hundreds of different teams who are provisioning resources. So the complexity uh and the speed that we are, you know, provisioning resources across multiple people, it just continues to go higher and higher. So that's why uh you know, on the surface it might look that hey, this, you know, maybe the biggest instance uh is, you know, aligned with the business needs, you know, looking at the changes, it's hard to know, are those aligned with the business? They're not? So that's that's that's where the complexity and player. >>So the question I get a lot from people we talk about devops and cloud, cloud apps or cloud management or whatever kind of buzz words out there, it kind of comes down to cloud apps and cloud management seems to be the category, people focus on. How is cloud ops different then? Say the traditional cloud management and what impact does it have for customers and why should they care and what do they need an option. >>Right. So one of the things we do uh and and we do think that cloud operation is sort of an evolution from cloud management. We make sure that Every single resource 1st, first of all blondes and workload. So and you know, workload could be a group of microservices uh and then uh you know every single workload has owners like define owners who are responsible for making sure they managed budget that they're responsible for security that normally doesn't exist. Right? Cloud is this black box, you know where multiple people are provisioning resources, you know, everyone tries to sort of build sort of a structure to kind of see like what are these resources for? What are these resources for as part of onboarding to end up? So what we do, we actually, you know, analyze all your metadata. We create like 56 workloads and then we say here is a bucket where there's there, this is totally unassigned, right? And then we actually walked them through assigning different roles and also we walk them through to kinda looking under this unallocated resources and assign resources for those as well. So once you're done, every single resource has clear definition, right? Is this a compliant? Uh you know hip hop workload, what are the run books, what is this for? John I don't know if he heard that before. Sometimes there are workloads running and how people don't know, I don't even know who is the owner, right? So after you're done with an office and after you're managing and uh, you know, uh, managing your workload on and off, you have full visibility and clear understanding of what are the. It's funny, it's >>funny you mentioned the workloads being kind of either not knowing the owners, but also we see people um, with the workloads sometimes it's like throwing a switch and leaving the hose on the water on. And next thing you know, they get the bill. They're like, oh my God, what happened? Why did I leave? What, what is this? So there's a lot of things that you could miss. This brings up the point you just said and what you said earlier aligning resources across the cloud uh and and having accountability. And then you, you mentioned at the top of this interview that aligning with the business needs. I find that fastest. I would like to take him in to explain because it sounds really hard. I get how you can align the resources and do some things, identify what's going on, accountability kind of map that that's, that's good tech. How does that, how do you get that to the alignment on the business side. >>Yeah. I mean we start by, first of all, like I said, you know, we use machine learning to play these workloads? And then we asked basic questions about the workload. You know, what is this workload for? Uh Do you need to meet with any kind of compliance is for this workload? Uh What is your S. O. A. For this workload? You know, depending on that. We we make recommendations. Uh So we kind of ask those questions and we also walk them through where they create roles. Like we asked who was responsible for creating budgets or managing security for this workload and guess what also the you know the bucket where resources are allocated for. We ask for you know, owners for that as well like in this bucket who's the owner for who's going to monitor the budget and things like that. So you know we asked, you know, we start by just asking the question, having teams complete that sort of information and also you know, why do you a little bit more information on how this aligns with the business needs? You know, >>talk about the complexity side of it. I love that conversation around the number of services. You said 200 services depending how you count what you call services in the thousands of so many different things uh knobs to turn on amazon uh web services. So why are people um focused on the complexity and the partnering side? Because you know, it's the clouds at E. P. I. Based system. So you're dealing with a lot of different diverse resources. So you have complexity and diversity. Can you talk me through how that works? Because that's that seems to be a tough beast to tame the difference between the complexity of services and also working with other people. >>Yeah for sure like this this normal to have um you know maybe thousands of lambda functions in their application. We're working with a customer where within last month there were nine million containers that launched and got terminated right there, pretty much leveraging, auto scaling and things like that. So these environments are like very complex. You know, there's a lot of moving pieces even, you know, depending on the type of services they're using. So again what we do, you know we when we look at tags and we look at other variables like environments and we look at who's provisioning resources, those resources and we try to group them together and that way there's accountability uh you know if the cost goes up for one workload were able to show that team like your cost is going up uh And also we can show uh unallocated bucket that hey within last week Your cost is you know, $4,000 higher in the unallocated bucket. Where would you like to move this these resources to just like an ongoing game. You >>know, you know jt I was talking with my friend jerry Chen is that Greylock partners is a V. C. Has been on the cube many times a couple of years ago. We're talking about how you can build a business within the cloud, in the shadows of the clouds, what he called it, but I called it more the enabling side and and that's happened now, you're seeing the massive growth. I'm also talking to some C X O C IOS or CSOs and they're like trying to figure out which companies that are evolving and growing to be to buy from, get to get the technology. Uh and they always say to me john I'm looking for game changing kind of impact. I'm looking for the efficiency and you know, enablement, the classic kind of criteria. So how would you guys position yourself to those buyers out there that might want to look at you guys as a solution and ups what game changing aspect of what you do is out there, how would you talk to that that C I O or C. So or buyer um out in the end the enterprise and the thieves ran his piece. What would you say to them? >>Yeah, I think the biggest uh advantage and I think right now it's a necessity, you hear these stories where, you know, people provision resources, they don't even know which project is it for. It's just very hard to govern the cloud environment, but I believe we're the only tool. Mhm where you want to compromise on the speed, right? The whole reason um cloud but they want to innovate faster. No one wants to follow that. Right? But I think what's important. We need to make sure everything is aligned with the business value. Uh, we allow people to do that. You know, we, we, we can both fast at the same time. You can have some sort of guard rails. So there are proper ownership. There's accountability. People are collaborating and people are also rightsizing terminating resources, they're not using. It's like, you know, I think if companies are looking for a tool that's gonna drive better accountability on how people build and collaborate on cloud, I think reply the best solution. >>So people are evolving with the cloud and you mentioned terminating services. That's a huge deal in cloud. Native things are being spun up and turned off all the time. So you need to have good law, You have a good visibility, observe ability is one of the hottest buzzwords out there. We see a zillion companies saying, hey, we're observe ability, which is to me is just monitoring stuff. They can sure you're tracking everything. So when you have all this and you start to operationalize this next gen, next level cloud scale, cost optimization and visibility is huge. Um, what is the, what is the secret sauce uh, for that you guys offer? Because the change management is a big 12 teams are changing too cost team accountability. All this is kind of, it's not just speeds and feeds, there's, it's kind of intersection of both. What's your take on that reaction to that? >>Yeah, I think it's the Delta. Right? So change management, What you're really looking for is not a, like a fire hose, you're looking for. What changed what the root cause who did it, what happened? Right. Because it's totally normal for someone to provision maybe thousands or even millions containers. But how many of those got shut down? What is the delta and uh, you know, if there is a, there is an anomaly, what is the root cause? Right? Uh, how we fix it. So you know the way we've changed managers, change management is a lot different. We really get to the root cause analysis and we really help companies to make, really show what changed and how they can take action to a media. But if there were issues, >>I want to put a little plug in for you guys. I noticed you guys have a really strong net promoter score. You have happy customers also get partners. A lot of enablement there. You kind of got a lot of things going on. Um, explain what you guys are all about. How did you get here? What's the day in the life of a customer that you're serving? Why then why are the scores so high? Um, take us through a use case of someone getting that value. >>Yeah. So I, I come from like a consulting background, john so you know, I was migrating companies to read the Bs when the institute was in beta and then I, you know, founded a consulting company over 100 employees. Really successful interview. S premier partner called in clouds. And so Enos was born there because because you know it was, it was born out a consulting company, there are a lot of other partners who are leveraging the tools to help their customers and it goes back to our point earlier, john like amazon has to wonder services, right? We are noticing customers are open to work with partners and uh you know with different partners that really helped them to make sure they're making the right decisions when they are building on cloud. So a lot of the partners, a lot of the consulting companies are leveraging uh and hopes to deliver value to their customers as far as uh you know how we actually operate. You know, we pay attention to uh you know what, what customers are looking for, what, where are the next sort of challenges uh you know, customers are facing in a cloud environment world like super obsessed, you know, like we're trying to figure out how do we make sure every single resource is aligned with the business value without slowing companies down so that really drives us, we're constantly welcome customers to stay true to the admission >>and that's the ethos of devops moving fast. The old quote Mark Zuckerberg used to have move fast, break stuff and then he revised it to move move fast and make it stable, which is essentially operational thing. Right, so you're starting to see that maturity, I noticed that you guys also have a really cool pricing model, very easy to get in and you have a high end too. So talk us through about how to engage with you guys, how do people get involved? Just click and just jump in there, buying software buying services, take a minute to explain how people can, can work with you. >>Yeah, it's just, it's just signing up on our site, you know, our pricing is tier model, uh you know, once you sign up, if you do need help with, you know, remediating high risk issues we can bring in partners, we have a strong partner ecosystem. Uh we could definitely help you do interviews to the right partners but it's as simple as just signing up and just taking me out. First thing I guess. >>Jt great chatting with you have been there from early days of devops, born in the field, getting, getting close to the customers and you mentioned ec two and beta, they just celebrate their 15th birthday and I remember one of my starts that didn't actually get off the off the blocks, they didn't even have custom domains at that time was still the long remember the long you are else >>everything was ephemeral like when you restart server, everything will go away a cool >>time. And I just remember saying to myself man, every entrepreneur is going to use this service who would ever go out and buy and host the server. So you were there from the beginning and it's been great to see the success. Thanks for coming on the cube >>all That's >>okay. Jt thanks so much as a cube conversation here in Palo alto. I'm john for your host. Thanks for watching. Mhm.

>>Okay. We're back here at the cube. We're in the middle of all the action at mobile world. Cause we're in cloud city, uh, physically in onset here, we got the virtual space. People are watching remotely. We do a remote interviews, but now we're in person with. Who's the transformational leader, head of innovation in his previous Zane telecom, 50 million customers, big projects. You've seen it all, you know, you know all about the operators and you know about innovation. Those are two great topics that we're going to talk about. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So we were talking about on the open, uh, with Chloe this morning about the difference between building and operating and operators. Technically it's in the definition of running large networks, but now the change is here. You've got cloud scale, you've got edge developing with 5g, open, ran for standardization and off the shelf equipment that will give more infrastructure surface area, which will bring more innovation. A lot of change, a lot of build-out. This is a mindset change you want to it's like war time, peace time. It's not a mature market. It's a growing turbulent opportunity and the trillions of dollars at stake. And, um, >>I, I believe that we as humans on anything that we do so much of our learning comes from doing, and whatever you do is what you learn. So what have we, as an operator's been doing, we have been buying things. So our learning has been on procurement, how to do a business casing, how to get approvals, but not necessarily how to really introduce something new to our customers. And what has, what has said to us as an industry is that all the innovation and there's been a lot of innovation on communication space has been done either by the handset people or has been done by the internet people, but not so much as some operators. So I think that's really something that you have to have to change, but you have to change what you learn. You have to change how you actually do it. >>It's interesting. You know, I'm very pro telecom, but people think I'm, I'm not because I tend to criticize and pontificate around the change. But if you look at the telecon, it's been a bunch of dumb pipes and that's been a good thing and it's been reliable. We've had great connectivity growth. The internet was stable during the pandemic. It literally saved people's lives and change things that we survived and it worked great. But now when you have applications and infrastructure as code, new opportunities are going to be forcing that change quicker. So it's not so much, it needs to radically change. It just needs to get more versatile, more >>Get on the >>Program. So if you look what has happened on other industries, WhatsApp, how the internet payers do it, how does apple do it? How does Google do it? How does Facebook do it? They are using these new technologies. They are using cloud first approaches. They are building huge scale and they able to innovate. So the way I'm looking at it, that you guys are an operator you need to get on the program. And it's not, it's not the question. Should I do it? Should I not do it? Question is how do you do it? It's not the question when you should do it, you should do it. Now, the question is, how do you do it? How do you get started? I think, no, I think >>You're exactly right. It's in the here and now we're going to have a exclusive Google news conference later in the day, but you've mentioned the cloud players. If you look at the success of say Android, Android is a great use case that I think might be something that you can look at to the telecom industry and say, Hmm, how open source software changed the handset business? I think there's kind of a movement here in the telco space. And this ecosystem where you hear open, you got the Linux foundation participated with the software group for Iran. You got other things happening with open gardens, not walled gardens. Interesting. What's your take on how the, the innovation from the software side might come in here because you want to preserve the legacy operational stability, but bringing in new >>For you to be able to do a new, you need to have those software skills, because that's how the new things happen. You have to build them, you have to program them. But then the, then the issue is that your organization, most likely something good for this. So you don't have the designers. You don't have the software engineers, you don't have, uh, how to do customer experience, how to do, how to do the planning. You don't have it. So then the, then the challenge is how are you going to do that? And I'm a big saver off of operators starting to build some of the internal teams, have them separate teams and have them start to trial on these things. Give don't be so hard on yourself, allow yourself to try and try. Some things, allow yourself to fail. Don't make them huge programs because then the failure becomes a huge issue also. And then once you learn, once you know how to do it, then scale it up. But yes, these new skills software, you have to do it. And open is very well. >>You know, we were talking yesterday about this new world where feature creep used to be a bad thing. But now with cloud scale, you can develop rapid features quickly and get data and then abandon those things quickly. The time to do that is now part of the development process. So as software changes, you're starting to see the human resources configurations, where teams are formed differently. What's your take on this? Because end to end workloads can have multiple layers on an SRE, an operator, a developer, and a UX person, all on one team. I >>Agree. And I think that, and this is not something we have to invent as a telecom industry. Let's just go look at what the software guys are doing, right? So for decades, over the better part of a decade, there have been having HR teams. They're having the actual, working more working on sprains. All the tools already exist. All it's, it's all available for us. So all we have to do is just look at how they are doing that and start to use some of those practices and on our business. And by the way, we have been trying, this is not very good at it because we tend to kind of take it to the previous way of doing patients. And then we get ourselves into trouble. You know, >>It's the classic old playbook. We're good at procuring things. We know how to get that email, checking the list, done cost efficiency, drive more revenue chip away at it, moved the ball down the field slowly. Now the new playbook is agility, software economics, software playbook. So I have to ask you on, on that piece of it, how do you think the operators are psychologically right now? Are they, are they have a frog in boiling water? Do they know what's happening? Are they open to it? Or they just need more repetition? What's the psychology of the, with the progress and the progress bar of the operators relative to the trends. >>I think they might be a little bit desperate, right? So also telecom people. I like to think they're relatively smart people. They are not dummies. They know what they are doing, but th there's 30 years of history, maybe more and there's large organizations, maybe thousands of people who are, who are, who they have to work with. So somehow you have to have to figure out how do you get these new skills? And, and we're getting older. Also. I was in 1995, working for telecom. TSM standard loans. We were young at that point. I'm not young anymore. >>So this is your whole experience. I appreciate that. Well, >>I mean, old is good because now if you look at, I mean, I would, again, not to bring up ageism, but um, young, young guns, they never really loaded a Linux operating system before they never really wired splice cable. Um, and also there's also the systems thinking. And I think one of the things that's coming out of this show, that's clear to us here at the cube is if you're a systems thinker you tend to do well because the edge Springs distributed computing to the table. So, you know, I think this experience collision with the young talent. Yeah. >>And I had a, a program where I actively wanted to bring new talent into the organization. We didn't want to hire it. As people have five to 10 years of working experience. Now let's give us some guys fresh out of the college. It's fine. We have plenty of telecom knowledge. We can teach them no issues, but we need some of the newer more, more open-minded approaches to what we can do. It's >>Funny, mark Zuckerberg said once years ago, it's a young man's game, a young person's game. And we were all like, yeah, screw you. But the point was is that now he looked at all the best players. Amazon has Gosling over there. A lot of these pioneers in the computing industry and the telecom industry are now leaders on the new architecture because there's an architectural change over, but it's not a rip and replace. It's a net abstraction. So it's not like it's going away. So the skills are there. So how do you talk about that? Because this is the big, an untold story, this new arc and architectural shift or tweak, uh, >>On architecture side. I think we, as an operators, we are really focused on building the networks and our networks started site. It's all about standard, uh, days. And it's all about buying buying boxes. And unfortunately, a lot of our leaders are then coming, growing up on that thinking. So then they trying to do the same thing on software side and it just doesn't work. So software is a totally different animal. So I think you need to really have a different mindset, different way of looking at that. When you start to get on the software side of business and how do you do your architectures? You need to have this flexibility. TSMA is a standard that evolves in a 10 year cycle. Your software architecture can evolve and 10, 10 year cycle. It has to move faster than that >>While you've used it to our ears. You're definitely come back on the cube. We're going to have you back because this is the most important story in this industry is the software paradigm. Um, and our minutes that we have left, why have you here, what do you think of the show? Mobile world Congress, uh, speeds and feeds radios boxes. Now you got chips software. What does this show turning into? What is this about? >>I think it's amazing to start to see this year. What, because of the COVID a lot of the old players are not here. So suddenly that space has been filled more of a newer company. It's different kinds of things. And I think that's really important for this conference. I think it's really important for the industry and it's really good for all of us. It's nice to see something, something new, something, something else, >>Another team of >>Edge brings up education, health care, societal change, cyber defenses, peace and challenges >>With that. Also security and how to control. And yeah, I >>Mean, a lot of people were watching people participating so well. Great to have you on great expertise and congratulations on your new role as a transformation leader in Washington, DC. And again, Nate, we need you there. So did you get up there on the hill and help educate some of those, uh, leaders that need to write the new laws? Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Okay. We are here in the cube. We're breaking down all the action here at the middle of cloud city. I'm John from the cube. David lump is on assignment. I'm gonna send it back to the studio, Adam.

>>From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage for ADFS reinvent 2020 I'm John Ford with the cube, your host. We are the cube virtual. We're not there in person this year. We're remote with the pandemic and we're here for the keynote analysis for Verner Vogels, and we've got some great analysts on and friends of the cube cube alumni is Rob Hirschfeld is the founder and CEO of Rakin a pioneer in the dev ops space, as well as early on on the bare metal, getting on the whole on-premise he's seen the vision and I can tell you, I've talked to him many times over the years. He's been on the same track. He's on the right wave frog. Great to have you on. I'm going to have to start Veatch, come on. Y'all come on as well, but great to see you. Thanks, pleasure to be here. Um, so the keynote with Verna was, you know, he's like takes you on a journey, you know, and, and virtual is actually a little bit different vibe, but I thought he did an exceptional job of stage layout and some of the virtual stage craft. Um, but what I really enjoyed the most was really this next level, thinking around systems thinking, right, which is my favorite topic, because, you know, we've been saying, going back 10 years, the cloud is just, here's a computer, right. It's operating system. And so, um, this is the big thing. This is, what's your reaction to the keynote. >>Wow. So I think you're right. This is one of the challenges with what Amazon has been building is it's, you know, it is a lock box, it's a service. So you don't, you don't get to see behind the scenes. You don't really get to know how they run these services. And what, what I see happening out of all of those pieces is they've really come back and said, we need to help people operate this platform. And, and that shouldn't be surprising to anyone. Right? Last couple of years, they've been rolling out service, service service, all these new things. This talk was really different for Verner's con normal ones, because he wasn't talking about whizzbang new technologies. Um, he was really talking about operations, um, you know, died in the wool. How do we make the system easier to use? How do we expose things? What assistance can we have in, in building applications? Uh, in some cases it felt like, uh, an application performance monitoring or management APM talk from five or even 10 years ago, um, canaries, um, you know, Canary deployments, chaos engineering, observability, uh, sort of bread and butter, operational things. >>We have Savi Joel, who's a influencer cloud computing Xtrordinair dev ops guru. Uh, we don't need dev ops guru from Amazon. We got Sarpy and prop here. So it'd be great to see you. Um, you guys had a watch party. Um, tell me what the reaction was, um, with, of the influencers in the cloud or ADI out there that were looking at Vernon's announcement, because it does attract a tech crowd. What was your take and what was the conversation like? >>Yeah, we kinda geeked out. Um, we had a watch party and we were commenting back and forth, like when we were watching it. I think that the general consensus is that the complexity of AWS stack itself is, is increasing. Right. And they have been focused on developers a lot, I think a lot longer than they needed to be a little bit. I think, uh, now they need to focus on the operations. Like we, we are, we all love dev ops talks and it's very fancy and it's very modern way of building software. But if you think deep down that, like once we developed software traditionally and, and also going forward, I think we need to have that separation. Once you develop something in production, it's, it's, it's operating right. Once you build a car, you're operating car, you're not building car all the time. Right? >>So same with the software. Once you build a system, it should have some stability where you're running it, operating it for, for a while, at least before you touch it or refactoring all that stuff. So I think like building and operating at the same time, it's very good for companies like Amazon, AWS, especially, uh, and, and Google and, and, and Facebook and all those folks who are building technology because they are purely high-tech companies, but not for GM Ford Chrysler or Kaiser Permanente, which is healthcare or a school district. The, they, they need, need to operate that stuff once it's built. So I think, uh, the operationalization of cloud, uh, well, I think take focus going forward a lot more than it has and absorbable Deanna, on a funny note, I said, observability is one of those things. I, now these days, like, like, you know, and the beauty pageants that every contestant say is like, whatever question you asked, is it Dora and the answer and say at the end world peace, right? >>And that's a world peace term, which is the absorbability. Like you can talk about all the tech stuff and all that stuff. And at the end you say observability and you'll be fine. So, um, what I'm making is like observability is, and was very important. And when I was talking today about like how we can enable the building of absorbability into this new paradigm, which is a microservices, like where you pass a service ID, uh, all across all the functions from beginning to the end. Right. And so, so you can trace stuff. So I think he was talking, uh, at that level. Yeah. >>Let me, let's take an observer Billy real quick. I have a couple of other points. I want to get your opinions on. He said, quote, this three, enabling major enabling technologies, powering observability metrics, logging and tracing here. We know that it would, that is of course, but he didn't take a position. If you look at all the startups out there that are sitting there, the next observability, there's at least six that I know of. I mean, that are saying, and then you got ones that are kind of come in. I think signal effects was one. I liked, like I got bought by Splunk and then is observability, um, a feature, um, or is it a company? I mean, this is something that kind of gets talked about, right? I mean, it's, I mean, is it really something you can build a business on or is it a white space? That's a feature that gets pulled in what'd you guys react to that? >>So this is a platform conversation and, and, you know, one of the things that we've been having conversations around recently is this idea of platforms. And, and, you know, I've been doing a lot of work on infrastructure as code and distributed infrastructure and how people want infrastructure to be more code, like, which is very much what, what Verna was, was saying, right? How do we bring development process capabilities into our infrastructure operations? Um, and these are platform challenges. W what you're asking about from, uh, observability is perspective is if I'm running my code in a platform, if I'm running my infrastructure as a platform, I actually need to understand what that platform is doing and how it's making actions. Um, but today we haven't really built the platforms to be very transparent to the users. And observability becomes this necessary component to fix all the platforms that we have, whether they're Kubernetes or AWS, or, you know, even going back to VMware or bare metal, if you can't see what's going on, then you're operating in the blind. And that is an increasingly big problem. As we get more and more sophisticated infrastructure, right? Amazon's outage was based on systems can being very connected together, and we keep connecting systems together. And so we have to be able to diagnose and troubleshoot when those connections break or for using containers or Lambdas. The code that's running is ephemeral. It's only around for short periods of time. And if something's going wrong in it, it's incredibly hard to fix it, >>You know? And, and also he, you know, he reiterated his whole notion of log everything, right? He kept on banging on the drum on that one, like log everything, which is actually a good practice. You got to log everything. Why wouldn't you, >>I mean, how you do, but they don't make it easy. Right? Amazon has not made it easy to cross, cross, and, uh, connect all the data across all of those platforms. Right? People think of Amazon as one thing, but you know, the people who are using it understand it's actually a collection of services. And some of those are not particularly that tied together. So figuring out something that's going on across, across all of your service bundles, and this isn't an Amazon problem, this is an industry challenge. Especially as we go towards microservices, I have to be able to figure out what happened, even if I used 10 services, >>Horizontal, scalability argument. Sorry. Do you want to get your thoughts on this? So the observability, uh, he also mentioned theory kind of couched it before he went into the talk about systems theory. I'm like, okay. Let's, I mean, I love systems, and I think that's going to be the big wake up call here for the next 10 years. That's a systems mindset. And I think, you know, um, Rob's right. It's a platform conversation. When you're thinking about an operating system or a system, it has consequences when things change, but he talked about controllability versus, uh, observability and kinda T that teed up the, well, you can control systems controls, or you can have observability, uh, what's he getting at in all of this? What's he trying to say, keep, you know, is it a cover story? Is it this, is it a feature? What was the, what was the burner getting at with all this? >>Uh, I, I, I believe they, they understand that, that, uh, that all these services are very sort of micro in nature from Amazon itself. Right. And then they are not tied together as Rob said earlier. And they, he addressed that. He, uh, he, uh, announced that service. I don't know the name of that right now of problem ahead that we will gather all the data from all the different places. And then you can take a look at all the data coming from different services at this at one place where you have the service ID passed on to all the servers services. You have to do that. It's a discipline as a software developer, you have to sort of adhere to even in traditional world, like, like, you know, like how you do logging and monitoring and tracing, um, it's, it's your creativity at play, right? >>So that's what software is like, if you can pass on, I was treating what they gave an example of Citrix, uh, when, when, when you are using like tons of applications with George stream to your desktop, through Citrix, they had app ID concept, right? So you can trace what you're using and all that stuff, and you can trace the usage and all that stuff, and they can, they can map that log to that application, to that user. So you need that. So I think he w he was talking about, I think that's what he's getting too. Like we have to, we have to sort of rethink how we write software in this new Microsoft, uh, sort of a paradigm, which I believe it, it's a beautiful thing. Uh, as long as we can manage it, because Microsoft is, are spread across like, um, small and a smaller piece of software is everywhere, right? So the state, how do we keep the state intact? How do we, um, sort of trace things? Uh, it becomes a huge problem if we don't do it right? So it it's, um, it's a little, this is some learning curve for most of the developers out there. So 60 dash 70% >>Rob was bringing this up, get into this whole crash. And what is it kind of breakdown? Because, you know, there's a point where you don't have the Nirvana of true horizontal scalability, where you might have microservices that need to traverse boundaries or systems, boundaries, where, or silos. So to Rob's point earlier, if you don't see it, you can't measure it or you can't get through it. How do you wire services across boundaries? Is that containers, is that, I mean, how does this all work? How do you guys see that working? I just see a train wreck there. >>It's, it's a really hard problem. And I don't think we should underestimate it because everything we toast talked about sounds great. If you're in a single AWS region, we're talking about distributed infrastructure, right? If you think about what we've been seeing, even more generally about, you know, edge sites, uh, colo on prem, you know, in cloud multi-region cloud, all these things are actually taking this one concept and you're like, Oh, I just want to store all the log data. Now, you're not going to store all your log data in one central location anymore. That in itself, as a distributed infrastructure problem, where I have to be able to troubleshoot what's going on, you know, and know that the logs are going to the right place and capture the data, that's really important. Um, and one of the innovations in this that I think is going to impact the industry over the next couple of years is the addition of more artificial intelligence and machine learning, into understanding operations patterns and practices. >>And I think that that's a really significant industry trend where Amazon has a distinct advantage because it's their systems and it's captive. They can analyze and collect a lot of data across very many customers and learn from those things and program systems that learn from those things. Um, and so the way you're going to keep up with this is not by logging more and more data, but by doing exactly what we're talking through, which was how do I analyze the patterns with machine learning so that I can get predictive analysis so that I can understand something that looks wrong and then put people on checking it before it goes wrong. >>All right, I gotta, I gotta bring up something controversial. I can't hold back any longer. Um, you know, Mark Zuckerberg said many, many years ago, all the old people, they can do startups, they're too old and you gotta be young and hungry. You gotta do that stuff. If we're talking systems theory, uh, automated meta reasoning, evolvable systems, resilience, distributed computing, isn't that us old guys that have actually have systems experience. I mean, if you're under the age of 30, you probably don't even know what a system is. Um, and, or co coded to the level of systems that we use to code. And I'm putting my quote old man kind of theory, only kidding, by the way on the 30. But my point is there is a generation of us that had done computer science in the, in the eighties and seventies, late seventies, maybe eighties and nineties, it's all it was, was systems. It was a systems world. Now, when you have a software world, the aperture is increasing in terms of software, are the younger generation of developers system thinkers, or have we lost that art, uh, or is it doesn't matter? What do you guys think? >>I, I think systems thinking comes with age. I mean, that's, that's sort of how I think, I mean, like I take the systems thinking a greater sort of, >>Um, world, like state as a system country, as a system and everything is a system, your body's a system family system, so it's the same way. And then what impacts the system when you operated internal things, which happened within the system and external, right. And we usually don't talk about the economics and geopolitics. There's a lot of the technology. Sometimes we do, like we have, I think we need to talk more about that, the data sovereignty and all that stuff. But, but even within the system, I think the younger people appreciate it less because they don't have the, they don't see, um, software taught like that in the universities. And, and, and, and by these micro micro universities now online trainings and stuff like sweaty, like, okay, you learn this thing and you're good at it saying, no, no, it's not like that. So you've got to understand the basics and how the systems operate. >>Uh, I'll give you an example. So like we were doing the, the, the client server in early nineties, and then gradually we moved more towards like having ESB enterprise services, bus where you pass a state, uh, from one object to another, and we can bring in the heterogeneous, uh, languages. This thing is written in Java. This is in.net. This is in Python. And then you can pass it through that. Uh, you're gonna make a state for, right. And that, that was contained environment. Like ESBs were contained environment. We were, I, I wrote software for ESPs myself at commerce one. And so like, we, what we need today is the ESP equallant in the cloud. We don't have that. >>Rob, is there a reverse ageism developers? I mean, if you're young, you might not have systems. What do you think? I, I don't agree with that. I actually think that the nature of the systems that we're programming forces people into more distributed infrastructure thinking the platforms we have today are much better than they were, you know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, um, in the sense that I can do distributed infrastructure programming without thinking about it very much anymore, but you know, people know, they know how to use cloud. They know how to use a big platform. They know how to break things into microservices. I, I think that these are inherent skills that people need to think about that you're you're right. There is a challenge in that, you know, you get very used to the platform doing the work for you, and that you need to break through it, but that's an experiential thing, right? >>The more experienced developers are going to have to understand what the platforms do. Just like, you know, we used to have to understand how registers worked inside of a CPU, something I haven't worried about for a long, long time. So I, I don't think it's that big of a problem. Um, from, from that perspective, I do think that the thing that's really hard is collaboration. And so, you know, it's, it's hard people to people it's hard inside of a platform. It's hard when you're an Amazon size and you've been rolling out services all over the place and now have to figure out how to fit them all together. Um, and that to me is, is a design problem. And it's more about being patient and letting things, uh, mature. If anything might take away from this keynote is, you know, everybody asked Amazon to take a breath and work on usability and, and cross cross services synchronizations rather than, than adding more services into the mix. And that's, >>That's a good point. I mean, again, I bring up the conversation because it's kind of the elephant in the room and I make it being controversial to make a point there. So our view, because, you know, I interviewed Judy Estrin who helped found the internet with Vince Cerf. She's well-known for her contributions for the TCP IP protocol. Andy Besta Stein. Who's the, who's the Rembrandt of motherboards. But as Pat Gelsinger, CEO of VMware, I would say both said to me on the cube that without systems thinking, you don't understand consequences of when things change. And we start thinking about this microservices conversation, you start to hear a little bit of that pattern emerging, where those systems, uh, designs matter. And then you have, on the other hand, you have this modern application framework where serverless takes over. So, you know, Rob back to your infrastructure as code, it really isn't an either, or they're not mutually exclusive. You're going to have a set of nerds and geeks engineering systems to make them better and easier and scalable. And then you're going to have application developers that need to just make it work. So you start to see the formation of kind of the, I won't say swim lanes, but I mean, what do you guys think about that? Because you know, Judy and, um, Andy better sign up. They're kind of right. Uh, >>Th th the enemy here, and we're seeing this over and over again is complexity. And, and the challenge has been, and serverless is like, those people like, Oh, I don't have to worry about servers anymore because I'm dealing with serverless, which is not true. What you're doing is you're not worrying about infrastructure as much, but you, the complexity, especially in a serverless infrastructure where you're pulling, you know, events from all sorts of things, and you have one, one action, one piece of code, you know, triggering a whole bunch of other pieces of code in a decoupled way. We are, we are bringing so much complexity into these systems, um, that they're very hard to conceive of. Um, and AIML is not gonna not gonna address that. Um, I think one of the things that was wonderful about the setting, uh, in the sugar factory and at all of that, you know, sort of very mechanical viewpoint, you know, when you're actually connecting all things together, you can see it. A lot of what we've been building today is almost impossible to observe. And so the complexity price that we're paying in infrastructure is going up exponentially and we can't sustain infrastructures like that. We have to start leveling that in, right? >>Your point on the keynote, by the way, great call out on, on the, on the setting. I thought that was very clever. So what do you think about this? Because as enterprises go through this transformation, one of the big conversations is the solution architecture, the architecture of, um, how you lay all this out. It's complexity involved. Now you've got on premise system, you've got cloud, you've got edge, which you're hearing more and more local processing, disconnected systems, managing it at the edge with visualization. We're going to hear more about that, uh, with Dirk, when he comes on the queue, but you know, just in general as a practitioner out there, what, what's, what's your, what do you see people getting their arms around, around this, this keynote? What do they, what's your thoughts? >>Yeah, I, I think, uh, the, the pattern I see emerging is like, or in the whole industry, regardless, like if you put, when does your sign is that like, we will write less and less software in-house I believe that SAS will emerge. Uh, and it has to, I mean, that is the solution to kill the complexity. I believe, like we always talk about software all the time and we, we try to put this in the one band, like it's, everybody's dining, same kind of software, and they have, I'm going to complexity and they have the end years and all that stuff. That's not true. Right. If you are Facebook, you're writing totally different kind of software that needs to scale differently. You needs a lot of cash and all that stuff, right. Gash like this and cash. Well, I ain't both gases, but when you are a mid size enterprise out there in the middle, like fly over America, what, uh, my friend Wayne says, like, we need to think about those people too. >>Like, how do they drive software? What kind of software do they write? Like how many components they have in there? Like they have three tiers of four tiers. So I think they're a little more simpler software for internal use. We have to distinguish these applications. I always talk about this, like the systems of record systems of differentiation, the system of innovation. And I think cloud will do great. And the newer breed of applications, because you're doing a lot of, a lot of experimentation. You're doing a lot of DevOps. You have two pizza teams and all that stuff, which is good stuff we talk about, well, when you go to systems of record, you need stability. You need, you need some things which is operational. You don't want to touch it again, once it's in production. Right? And so the, in between that, that thing is, I think that's, that's where the complexity lies the systems are, which are in between those systems of record and system or innovation, which are very new Greenfield. That, that's what I think that's where we need to focus, uh, our, um, platform development, um, platform as a service development sort of, uh, dollars, if you will, as an industry, I think Amazon is doing that right. And, and Azura is doing that right to a certain extent too. I, I, I, I worry a little bit about, uh, uh, Google because they're more tilted towards the data science, uh, sort of side of things right now. >>Well, Microsoft has the most visibility into kind of the legacy world, but Rob, you're shaking your head there. Um, on his comment, >>You know, I, I, you know, I, I watched the complexity of all these systems and, and, you know, I'm not sure that sass suffocation of everything that we're doing is leading to less is pushing the complexity behind a curtain so that you, you, you can ignore the man behind the curtain. Um, but at the end of the day, you know what we're really driving towards. And I think Amazon is accelerating this. The cloud is accelerating. This is a new set of standard operating processes and procedures based on automation, based on API APIs, based on platforms, uh, that ultimately, I think people could own and could come back to how we want to operate it. When I look at what we w we were just shown with the keynote, you know, it was an, is things that application performance management and monitoring do. It's, it's not really Amazon specific stuff. There's no magic beans that Amazon is growing operational knowledge, you know, in Amazon, greenhouses that only they know how to consume. This is actually pretty block and tackle stuff. Yeah. And most people don't need to operate it at that type of scale to be successful. >>It's a great point. I mean, let's, let's pick up on that for the last couple of minutes we have left. Cause I think that's a great, great double-down because you're thinking about the mantra, Hey, everything is a service, you know, that's great for business model. You know, you hand it over to the techies. They go, wait a minute. What does that actually mean? It's harder. But when I talk to people out there and you hear people talking about everything is a service or sanctification, I do agree. I think you're putting complexity behind the curtain, but it's kind of the depends answer. So if you're going to have everything as a service, the common thesis is it has to have support automation everywhere. You got to automate things to make things sassiphy specified, which means you need five nines, like factory type environments. They're not true factories, but Rob, to your point, if you're going to make something a SAS, it better be Bulletproof. Because if you're, if you're automating something, it better be automated, right? You can measure things all you want, but if it's not automated, like a, like a, >>And you have no idea what's going on behind the curtains with some of these, these things, right. Especially, you know, I know our business and you know, our customers' businesses, they're, they're reliant on more and more services and you have no idea, you know, the persistence that service, if they're going to break an API, if they're going to change things, a lot of the stuff that Amazon is adding here defensively is because they're constantly changing the wheels on the bus. Um, and that is not bad operational practice. You should be resilient to that. You should have processes that are able to be constantly updated and CICB pipelines and, you know, continuous deployments, you shouldn't expect to, to, you know, fossilize your it environment in Amber, and then hope it doesn't have to change for 10 years. But at the same time, we'll work control your house. >>That's angle about better dev ops hypothetical, like a factory, almost metaphor. Do you care if the cars are being shipped down the assembly line and the output works and the output, if you have self-healing and you have these kinds of mechanisms, you know, you could have do care. The services are being terminated and stood up and reformed as long as the factory works. Right? So again, it's a complexity level of how much it, or you want to bite off and chew or make work. So to me, if it's automated, it's simple, did it work or not? And then the cost of work to be, what's your, what's your angle on this? Yeah. >>I believe if you believe in systems thinking, right. You have to believe in, um, um, the concept of, um, um, Oh gosh, I'm losing over minor. Um, abstraction. Right? So abstraction is your friend in software. Abstraction is your friend anyways, right? That's how we, humans pieces actually make a lot more progress than any other sort of living things here in this world. So that's why we are smart. We can abstract complexity behind the curtains, right? We, we can, we can keep improving, like from the, the, you know, wooden cart to the car, to the, to the plane, to the other, like, we, we, we have this, like when, when we see we are flying these airplanes, like 90% of the time they're on autopilot, like that's >>Hi, hiding my attractions is, is about evolution. Evolvable software term. He said, it's true. All right, guys, we have one minute left. Um, let's close this out real quick. Each of you give a closing statement on what you thought of the keynote and Verner's talk prop, we'll start with you. >>Uh, you know, as always, it's a perf keynote, uh, very different this year because it was so operationally focused and using the platform and, and helping people run their, their, off their applications and software better. And I think it's an interesting turn that we've been waiting for for Amazon, uh, to look at, you know, helping people use their own platform more. Um, so, uh, refreshing change and I think really powerful and well delivered. I really did like the setting >>Great shopping. And when we found, I found out today, that's Teresa Carlson is now running training and certification. So I'm expecting that to be highly awesomely accelerated a success there. Sorry, what's your take real quick on burners talk, walk away. Keynote thoughts. >>I, I, I think it was what I expected it to be like, he focused on the more like a software architecture kind of discussion. And he focused this time a little more on the ops side and the dev side, which I think they, they are pivoting a little bit, um, because they, they want to sell more AWS stuff to us, uh, to the existing enterprises. So I think, um, that was, um, good. Uh, I wish at the end, he said, not only like, go, go build, but also go build and operate. So can, you know, they all say, go build, build, build, but like, who's going to operate this stuff. Right. So I think, um, uh, I will see a little shift, I think, going forward, but we were talking earlier, uh, during or watch party that I think, uh, going forward, uh, AWS will open start open sourcing the commoditized version of their cloud, which have been commoditized by other vendors and gradually they will open source it so they can keep the hold onto the enterprises. I think that's what my take is. That's my prediction is >>Awesome and want, I'll make sure I'm at your watch party next time. Sorry. I missed it. Nobody's taking notes. Try and prepare. Sorry, Rob. Thanks for coming on and sharing awesome insight and expertise to experts in cloud and dev ops. I know them. And can firstly vouch for their awesomeness? Thanks for coming on. I think Verner can verify what I thought already was reporting Amazon everywhere. And if you connect the dots, this idea of reasoning, are we going to have smarter cloud? That's the next conversation? I'm John for your host of the cube here, trying to get smarter with Aus coverage. Thanks to Robin. Sarvi becoming on. Thanks for watching.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting innovation for good, brought to you by on shape. >>Hello, everyone, and welcome to Innovation for Good Program, hosted by the Cuban. Brought to You by on Shape, which is a PTC company. My name is Dave Valentin. I'm coming to you from our studios outside of Boston. I'll be directing the conversations today. It's a very exciting, all live program. We're gonna look at how product innovation has evolved and where it's going and how engineers, entrepreneurs and educators are applying cutting edge, cutting edge product development techniques and technology to change our world. You know, the pandemic is, of course, profoundly impacted society and altered how individuals and organizations they're gonna be thinking about an approaching the coming decade. Leading technologists, engineers, product developers and educators have responded to the new challenges that we're facing from creating lifesaving products to helping students learn from home toe how to apply the latest product development techniques and solve the world's hardest problems. And in this program, you'll hear from some of the world's leading experts and practitioners on how product development and continuous innovation has evolved, how it's being applied toe positive positively affect society and importantly where it's going in the coming decades. So let's get started with our first session fueling Tech for good. And with me is John Hirschbeck, who is the president of the Suffers, a service division of PTC, which acquired on shape just over a year ago, where John was the CEO and co founder, and Dana Grayson is here. She is the co founder and general partner at Construct Capital, a new venture capital firm. Folks, welcome to the program. Thanks so much for coming on. >>Great to be here, Dave. >>All right, John. >>You're very welcome. Dana. Look, John, let's get into it for first Belated congratulations on the acquisition of Von Shape. That was an awesome seven year journey for your company. Tell our audience a little bit about the story of on shape, but take us back to Day zero. Why did you and your co founders start on shape? Well, >>actually, start before on shaping the You know, David, I've been in this business for almost 40 years. The business of building software tools for product developers and I had been part of some previous products in the industry and companies that had been in their era. Big changes in this market and about, you know, a little Before founding on shape, we started to see the problems product development teams were having with the traditional tools of that era years ago, and we saw the opportunity presented by Cloud Web and Mobile Technology. And we said, Hey, we could use Cloud Web and Mobile to solve the problems of product developers make their Their business is run better. But we have to build an entirely new system, an entirely new company, to do it. And that's what on shapes about. >>Well, so notwithstanding the challenges of co vid and difficulties this year, how is the first year been as, Ah, division of PTC for you guys? How's business? Anything you can share with us? >>Yeah, our first year of PTC has been awesome. It's been, you know, when you get acquired, Dave, you never You know, you have great optimism, but you never know what life will really be like. It's sort of like getting married or something, you know, until you're really doing it, you don't know. And so I'm happy to say that one year into our acquisition, um, PTC on shape is thriving. It's worked out better than I could have imagined a year ago. Along always, I mean sales are up. In Q four, our new sales rate grew 80% vs Excuse me, our fiscal Q four Q three. In the calendar year, it grew 80% compared to the year before. Our educational uses skyrocketing with around 400% growth, most recently year to year of students and teachers and co vid. And we've launched a major cloud platform using the core of on shape technology called Atlas. So, um, just tons of exciting things going on a TTC. >>That's awesome. But thank you for sharing some of those metrics. And of course, you're very humble individual. You know, people should know a little bit more about you mentioned, you know, we founded Solid Works, co founded Solid where I actually found it solid works. You had a great exit in the in the late nineties. But what I really appreciate is, you know, you're an entrepreneur. You've got a passion for the babies that you you helped birth. You stayed with the salt systems for a number of years. The company that quiet, solid works well over a decade. And and, of course, you and I have talked about how you participated in the the M I T. Blackjack team. You know, back in the day, a zai say you're very understated, for somebody was so accomplished. Well, >>that's kind of you, but I tend to I tend Thio always keep my eye more on what's ahead. You know what's next, then? And you know, I look back Sure to enjoy it and learn from it about what I can put to work making new memories, making new successes. >>Love it. Okay, let's bring Dana into the conversation. Hello, Dana. You look you're a fairly early investor in in on shape when you were with any A And and I think it was like it was a serious B, but it was very right close after the A raise. And and you were and still are a big believer in industrial transformation. So take us back. What did you see about on shape back then? That excited you. >>Thanks. Thanks for that. Yeah. I was lucky to be a early investment in shape. You know, the things that actually attracted me. Don shape were largely around John and, uh, the team. They're really setting out to do something, as John says humbly, something totally new, but really building off of their background was a large part of it. Um, but, you know, I was really intrigued by the design collaboration side of the product. Um, I would say that's frankly what originally attracted me to it. What kept me in the room, you know, in terms of the industrial world was seeing just if you start with collaboration around design what that does to the overall industrial product lifecycle accelerating manufacturing just, you know, modernizing all the manufacturing, just starting with design. So I'm really thankful to the on shape guys, because it was one of the first investments I've made that turned me on to the whole sector. And while just such a great pleasure to work with with John and the whole team there. Now see what they're doing inside PTC. >>And you just launched construct capital this year, right in the middle of a pandemic and which is awesome. I love it. And you're focused on early stage investing. Maybe tell us a little bit about construct capital. What your investment thesis is and you know, one of the big waves that you're hoping to ride. >>Sure, it construct it is literally lifting out of any what I was doing there. Um uh, for on shape, I went on to invest in companies such as desktop metal and Tulip, to name a couple of them form labs, another one in and around the manufacturing space. But our thesis that construct is broader than just, you know, manufacturing and industrial. It really incorporates all of what we'd call foundational industries that have let yet to be fully tech enabled or digitized. Manufacturing is a big piece of it. Supply chain, logistics, transportation of mobility or not, or other big pieces of it. And together they really drive, you know, half of the GDP in the US and have been very under invested. And frankly, they haven't attracted really great founders like they're on in droves. And I think that's going to change. We're seeing, um, entrepreneurs coming out of the tech world orthe Agnelli into these industries and then bringing them back into the tech world, which is which is something that needs to happen. So John and team were certainly early pioneers, and I think, you know, frankly, obviously, that voting with my feet that the next set, a really strong companies are going to come out of the space over the next decade. >>I think it's a huge opportunity to digitize the sort of traditionally non digital organizations. But Dana, you focused. I think it's it's accurate to say you're focused on even Mawr early stage investing now. And I want to understand why you feel it's important to be early. I mean, it's obviously riskier and reward e er, but what do you look for in companies and and founders like John >>Mhm, Um, you know, I think they're different styles of investing all the way up to public market investing. I've always been early stage investors, so I like to work with founders and teams when they're, you know, just starting out. Um, I happened to also think that we were just really early in the whole digital transformation of this world. You know, John and team have been, you know, back from solid works, etcetera around the space for a long time. But again, the downstream impact of what they're doing really changes the whole industry. And and so we're pretty early and in digitally transforming that market. Um, so that's another reason why I wanna invest early now, because I do really firmly believe that the next set of strong companies and strong returns for my own investors will be in the spaces. Um, you know, what I look for in Founders are people that really see the world in a different way. And, you know, sometimes some people think of founders or entrepreneurs is being very risk seeking. You know, if you asked John probably and another successful entrepreneurs, they would call themselves sort of risk averse, because by the time they start the company, they really have isolated all the risk out of it and think that they have given their expertise or what they're seeing their just so compelled to go change something, eh? So I look for that type of attitude experience a Z. You can also tell from John. He's fairly humble. So humility and just focus is also really important. Um, that there's a That's a lot of it. Frankly, >>Excellent. Thank you, John. You got such a rich history in the space. Uh, and one of you could sort of connect the dots over time. I mean, when you look back, what were the major forces that you saw in the market in in the early days? Particularly days of on shape on? And how is that evolved? And what are you seeing today? Well, >>I think I touched on it earlier. Actually, could I just reflect on what Dana said about risk taking for just a quick one and say, throughout my life, from blackjack to starting solid works on shape, it's about taking calculated risks. Yes, you try to eliminate the risk Sa's much as you can, but I always say, I don't mind taking a risk that I'm aware of, and I've calculated through as best I can. I don't like taking risks that I don't know I'm taking. That's right. You >>like to bet on >>sure things as much as you sure things, or at least where you feel you. You've done the research and you see them and you know they're there and you know, you, you you keep that in mind in the room, and I think that's great. And Dana did so much for us. Dana, I want to thank you again. For all that, you did it every step of the way, from where we started to to, you know, your journey with us ended formally but continues informally. Now back to you, Dave, I think, question about the opportunity and how it's shaped up. Well, I think I touched on it earlier when I said It's about helping product developers. You know, our customers of the people build the future off manufactured goods. Anything you think of that would be manufacturing factory. You know, the chair you're sitting in machine that made your coffee. You know, the computer you're using, the trucks that drive by on the street, all the covert product research, the equipment being used to make vaccines. All that stuff is designed by someone, and our job is given the tools to do it better. And I could see the problems that those product developers had that we're slowing them down with using the computing systems of the time. When we built solid works, that was almost 30 years ago. If people don't realize that it was in the early >>nineties and you know, we did the >>best we could for the early nineties, but what we did. We didn't anticipate the world of today. And so people were having problems with just installing the systems. Dave, you wouldn't believe how hard it is to install these systems. You need toe speck up a special windows computer, you know, and make sure you've got all the memory and graphics you need and getting to get that set up. You need to make sure the device drivers air, right, install a big piece of software. Ah, license key. I'm not making this up. They're still around. You may not even know what those are. You know, Dennis laughing because, you know, zero cool people do things like this anymore. Um, and it only runs some windows. You want a second user to use it? They need a copy. They need a code. Are they on the same version? It's a nightmare. The teams change, you know? You just say, Well, get everyone on the software. Well, who's everyone? You know, you got a new vendor today? A new customer tomorrow, a new employee. People come on and off the team. The other problem is the data stored in files, thousands of files. This isn't like a spreadsheet or word processor, where there's one file to pass around these air thousands of files to make one, even a simple product. People were tearing their hair out. John, what do we do? I've got copies everywhere. I don't know where the latest version is. We tried like, you know, locking people out so that only one person can change it At the time that works against speed, it works against innovation. We saw what was happening with Cloud Web and mobile. So what's happened in the years since is every one of the forces that product developers experience the need for speed, the need for innovation, the need to be more efficient with their people in their capital. Resource is every one of those trends have been amplified since we started on shape by a lot of forces in the world. And covert is amplified all those the need for agility and remote work cove it is amplified all that the same time, The acceptance of cloud. You know, a few years ago, people were like cloud, you know, how is that gonna work now They're saying to me, You know, increasingly, how would you ever even have done this without the cloud. How do you make solid works work without the cloud? How would that even happen? You know, once people understand what on shapes about >>and we're the >>Onley full SAS solution software >>as a service, >>full SAS solution in our industry. So what's happened in those years? Same problems we saw earlier, but turn up the gain, their bigger problems. And with cloud, we've seen skepticism of years ago turn into acceptance. And now even embracement in the cova driven new normal. >>Yeah. So a lot of friction in the previous environments cloud obviously a huge factor on, I guess. I guess Dana John could see it coming, you know, in the early days of solid works with, you know, had Salesforce, which is kind of the first major independent SAS player. Well, I guess that was late nineties. So his post solid works, but pre in shape and their work day was, you know, pre on shape in the mid two thousands. And and but But, you know, the bet was on the SAS model was right for Crick had and and product development, you know, which maybe the time wasn't a no brainer. Or maybe it was, I don't know, but Dana is there. Is there anything that you would invest in today? That's not Cloud based? >>Um, that's a great question. I mean, I think we still see things all the time in the manufacturing world that are not cloud based. I think you know, the closer you get to the shop floor in the production environment. Um e think John and the PTC folks would agree with this, too, but that it's, you know, there's reliability requirements, performance requirements. There's still this attitude of, you know, don't touch the printing press. So the cloud is still a little bit scary sometimes. And I think hybrid cloud is a real thing for those or on premise. Solutions, in some cases is still a real thing. What what we're more focused on. And, um, despite whether it's on premise or hybrid or or SAS and Cloud is a frictionless go to market model, um, in the companies we invest in so sass and cloud, or really make that easy to adopt for new users, you know, you sign up, started using a product, um, but whether it's hosted in the cloud, whether it's as you can still distribute buying power. And, um, I would I'm just encouraging customers in the customer world and the more industrial environment to entrust some of their lower level engineers with more budget discretionary spending so they can try more products and unlock innovation. >>Right? The unit economics are so compelling. So let's bring it, you know, toe today's you know, situation. John, you decided to exit about a year ago. You know? What did you see in PTC? Other than the obvious money? What was the strategic fit? >>Yeah, Well, David, I wanna be clear. I didn't exit anything. Really? You >>know, I love you and I don't like that term exit. I >>mean, Dana had exit is a shareholder on and so it's not It's not exit for me. It's just a step in the journey. What we saw in PTC was a partner. First of all, that shared our vision from the top down at PTC. Jim Hempleman, the CEO. He had a great vision for for the impact that SAS can make based on cloud technology and really is Dana of highlighted so much. It's not just the technology is how you go to market and the whole business being run and how you support and make the customers successful. So Jim shared a vision for the potential. And really, really, um said Hey, come join us and we can do this bigger, Better, faster. We expanded the vision really to include this Atlas platform for hosting other SAS applications. That P D. C. I mean, David Day arrived at PTC. I met the head of the academic program. He came over to me and I said, You know, and and how many people on your team? I thought he'd say 5 40 people on the PTC academic team. It was amazing to me because, you know, we were we were just near about 100 people were required are total company. We didn't even have a dedicated academic team and we had ah, lot of students signing up, you know, thousands and thousands. Well, now we have hundreds of thousands of students were approaching a million users and that shows you the power of this team that PTC had combined with our product and technology whom you get a big success for us and for the teachers and students to the world. We're giving them great tools. So so many good things were also putting some PTC technology from other parts of PTC back into on shape. One area, a little spoiler, little sneak peek. Working on taking generative design. Dana knows all about generative design. We couldn't acquire that technology were start up, you know, just to too much to do. But PTC owns one of the best in the business. This frustrated technology we're working on putting that into on shaping our customers. Um, will be happy to see it, hopefully in the coming year sometime. >>It's great to see that two way exchange. Now, you both know very well when you start a company, of course, a very exciting time. You know, a lot of baggage, you know, our customers pulling you in a lot of different directions and asking you for specials. You have this kind of clean slate, so to speak in it. I would think in many ways, John, despite you know, your install base, you have a bit of that dynamic occurring today especially, you know, driven by the forced march to digital transformation that cove it caused. So when you sit down with the team PTC and talk strategy. You now have more global resource is you got cohorts selling opportunities. What's the conversation like in terms of where you want to take the division? >>Well, Dave, you actually you sounds like we should have you coming in and talking about strategy because you've got the strategy down. I mean, we're doing everything said global expansion were able to reach across selling. We got some excellent PTC customers that we can reach reach now and they're finding uses for on shape. I think the plan is to, you know, just go, go, go and grow, grow, grow where we're looking for this year, priorities are expand the product. I mentioned the breath of the product with new things PTC did recently. Another technology that they acquired for on shape. We did an acquisition. It was it was small, wasn't widely announced. It, um, in an area related to interfacing with electrical cad systems. So So we're doing We're expanding the breath of on shape. We're going Maura, depth in the areas were already in. We have enormous opportunity to add more features and functions that's in the product. Go to market. You mentioned it global global presence. That's something we were a little light on a year ago. Now we have a team. Dana may not even know what we have. A non shape, dedicated team in Barcelona, based in Barcelona but throughout Europe were doing multiple languages. Um, the academic program just introduced a new product into that space that z even fueling more success and growth there. Um, and of course, continuing to to invest in customer success and this Atlas platform story I keep mentioning, we're going to soon have We're gonna soon have four other major PTC brands shipping products on our Atlas Saas platform. And so we're really excited about that. That's good for the other PTC products. It's also good for on shape because now there's there's. There's other interesting products that are on shape customers can use take advantage of very easily using, say, a common log in conventions about user experience there, used to invest of all they're SAS based, so they that makes it easier to begin with. So that's some of the exciting things going on. I think you'll see PTC, um, expanding our lead in SAS based applications for this sector for our our target, uh, sectors not just in, um, in cat and data management, but another area. PTC's Big and his augmented reality with of euphoria, product line leader and industrial uses of a R. That's a whole other story we should do. A whole nother show augmented reality. But these products are amazing. You can you can help factory workers people on, uh, people who are left out of the digital transformation. Sometimes we're standing from machine >>all day. >>They can't be sitting like we are doing Zoom. They can wear a R headset in our tools, let them create great content. This is an area Dana is invested in other companies. But what I wanted to note is the new releases of our authoring software. For this, our content getting released this month, used through the Atlas platform, the SAS components of on shape for things like revision management and collaboration on duh workflow activity. All that those are tools that we're able to share leverage. We get a lot of synergy. It's just really good. It's really fun to have a good time. That's >>awesome. And then we're gonna be talking to John MacLean later about that. Let's do a little deeper Dive on that. And, Dana, what is your involvement today with with on shape? But you're looking for you know, which of their customers air actually adopting. And they're gonna disrupt their industries. And you get good pipeline from that. How do you collaborate today? >>That sounds like a great idea. Um, Aziz, John will tell you I'm constantly just asking him for advice and impressions of other entrepreneurs and picking his brain on ideas. No formal relationship clearly, but continue to count John and and John and other people in on shaping in the circle of experts that I rely on for their opinions. >>All right, so we have some questions from the crowd here. Uh, one of the questions is for the dream team. You know, John and Dana. What's your next next collective venture? I don't think we're there yet, are we? No. >>I just say, as Dana said, we love talking to her about. You know, Dana, you just returned the compliment. We would try and give you advice and the deals you're looking at, and I'm sort of casually mentoring at least one of your portfolio entrepreneurs, and that's been a lot of fun for May on, hopefully a value to them. But also Dana. We uran important pipeline to us in the world of some new things that are happening that we wouldn't see if you know you've shown us some things that you've said. What do you think of this business? And for us, it's like, Wow, it's cool to see that's going on And that's what's supposed to work in an ecosystem like this. So we we deeply value the ongoing relationship. And no, we're not starting something new. I got a lot of work left to do with what I'm doing and really happy. But we can We can collaborate in this way on other ventures. >>I like this question to somebody asking With the cloud options like on shape, Wilmore students have stem opportunities s Oh, that's a great question. Are you because of sass and cloud? Are you able to reach? You know, more students? Much more cost effectively. >>Yeah, Dave, I'm so glad that that that I was asked about this because Yes, and it's extremely gratified us. Yes, we are because of cloud, because on shape is the only full cloud full SAS system or industry were able to reach. Stem education brings able to be part of bringing step education to students who couldn't get it otherwise. And one of most gratifying gratifying things to me is the emails were getting from teachers, um, that that really, um, on the phone calls that were they really pour their heart out and say We're able to get to students in areas that have very limited compute resource is that don't have an I T staff where they don't know what computer that the students can have at home, and they probably don't even have a computer. We're talking about being able to teach them on a phone to have an android phone a low end android phone. You can do three D modeling on there with on shape. Now you can't do it any other system, but with on shape, you could do it. And so the teacher can say to the students, They have to have Internet access, and I know there's a huge community that doesn't even have Internet access, and we're not able, unfortunately to help that. But if you have Internet and you have even an android phone, we can enable the educator to teach them. And so we have case after case of saving a stem program or expanding it into the students that need it most is the ones we're helping here. So really excited about that. And we're also able to let in addition to the run on run on whatever computing devices they have, we also offer them the tools they need for remote teaching with a much richer experience. Could you teach solid works remotely? Well, maybe if the student ran it had a windows workstation. You know, big, big, high end workstation. Maybe it could, but it would be like the difference between collaborating with on shape and collaborate with solid works. Like the difference between a zoom video call and talking on the landline phone. You know, it's a much richer experience, and that's what you need. And stem teaching stem is hard, So yeah, we're super super. Um, I'm excited about bringing stem to more students because of cloud yond >>we're talking about innovation for good, and then the discussion, John, you just had it. Really? There could be a whole another vector here. We could discuss on diversity, and I wanna end with just pointing out. So, Dana, your new firm, it's a woman led firm, too. Two women leaders, you know, going forward. So that's awesome to see, so really? Yeah, thumbs up on that. Congratulations on getting that off the ground. >>Thank you. Thank you. >>Okay, so thank you guys. Really appreciate It was a great discussion. I learned a lot and I'm sure the audience did a swell in a moment. We're gonna talk with on shaped customers to see how they're applying tech for good and some of the products that they're building. So keep it right there. I'm Dave Volonte. You're watching innovation for good on the Cube, the global leader in digital tech event coverage. Stay right there. >>Oh, yeah, it's >>yeah, yeah, around >>the globe. It's the Cube presenting innovation for good. Brought to you by on shape. >>Okay, we're back. This is Dave Volonte and you're watching innovation for good. A program on Cuba 3 65 made possible by on shape of PTC company. We're live today really live tv, which is the heritage of the Cube. And now we're gonna go to the sources and talkto on shape customers to find out how they're applying technology to create real world innovations that are changing the world. So let me introduce our panel members. Rafael Gomez Furberg is with the Chan Zuckerberg bio hub. A very big idea. And collaborative nonprofit was initiative that was funded by Mark Zuckerberg and his wife, Priscilla Chan, and really around diagnosing and curing and better managing infectious diseases. So really timely topic. Philip Tabor is also joining us. He's with silver side detectors, which develops neutron detective detection systems. Yet you want to know if early, if neutrons and radiation or in places where you don't want them, So this should be really interesting. And last but not least, Matthew Shields is with the Charlottesville schools and is gonna educate us on how he and his team are educating students in the use of modern engineering tools and techniques. Gentlemen, welcome to the Cuban to the program. This should be really interesting. Thanks for coming on. >>Hi. Or pleasure >>for having us. >>You're very welcome. Okay, let me ask each of you because you're all doing such interesting and compelling work. Let's start with Rafael. Tell us more about the bio hub and your role there, please. >>Okay. Yeah. So you said that I hope is a nonprofit research institution, um, funded by Mark Zuckerberg and his wife, Priscilla Chan. Um, and our main mission is to develop new technologies to help advance medicine and help, hopefully cure and manage diseases. Um, we also have very close collaborations with Universe California, San Francisco, Stanford University and the University California Berkeley on. We tried to bring those universities together, so they collaborate more of biomedical topics. And I manage a team of engineers. They by joining platform. Um, and we're tasked with creating instruments for the laboratory to help the scientist boats inside the organization and also in the partner universities Do their experiments in better ways in ways that they couldn't do before >>in this edition was launched Well, five years ago, >>it was announced at the end of 2016, and we actually started operation with at the beginning of 2017, which is when I joined, um, So this is our third year. >>And how's how's it going? How does it work? I mean, these things take time. >>It's been a fantastic experience. Uh, the organization works beautifully. Um, it was amazing to see it grow From the beginning, I was employee number 12, I think eso When I came in, it was just a nem P office building and empty labs. And very quickly we had something running about. It's amazing eso I'm very proud of the work that we have done to make that possible. Um And then, of course, that's you mentioned now with co vid, um, we've been able to do a lot of very cool work attire being of the pandemic in March, when there was a deficit of testing, uh, capacity in California, we spun up a testing laboratory in record time in about a week. It was crazy. It was a crazy project, Um, but but incredibly satisfying. And we ended up running all the way until the beginning of November, when the lab was finally shut down. We could process about 3000 samples a day. I think at the end of it all, we were able to test about 100 on the order of 100 and 50,000 samples from all over the state. We were providing free testing toe all of the Department of Public Health Department of Public Health in California, which at the media pandemic, had no way to do testing affordably and fast. So I think that was a great service to the state. Now the state has created that testing system that would serve those departments. So then we decided that it was unnecessary to keep going with testing in the other biopsy that would shut down. >>All right. Thank you for that. Now, Now, Philip, you What you do is mind melting. You basically helped keep the world safe. Maybe describe a little bit more about silver sod detectors and what your role is there and how it all works. >>Tour. So we make a nuclear bomb detectors and we also make water detectors. So we try and do our part thio keep the world from blowing up and make it a better place at the same time. Both of these applications use neutron radiation detectors. That's what we make. Put them out by import border crossing places like that. They can help make sure that people aren't smuggling. Shall we say very bad things. Um, there's also a burgeoning field of research and application where you can use neutrons with some pretty cool physics to find water so you could do things. Like what? A detector up in the mountains and measure snowpack. Put it out in the middle of the field and measure soil moisture content. And as you might imagine, there's some really cool applications in, uh, research and agronomy and public policy for this. >>All right, so it's OK, so it's a It's much more than, you know, whatever fighting terrorism, it's there's a riel edge or I kind of i o t application for what you guys >>do. We do both its's to plowshares. You might >>say a mat. I I look at your role is kind of scaling the brain power for for the future. Maybe tell us more about Charlottesville schools and in the mission that you're pursuing and what you do. >>Thank you. Um, I've been in Charlottesville City schools for about 11 or 12 years. I started their teaching, um, a handful of classes, math and science and things like that. But Thescore board and my administration had the crazy idea of starting an engineering program about seven years ago. My background is an engineering is an engineering. My masters is in mechanical and aerospace engineering and um, I basically spent a summer kind of coming up with what might be a fun engineering curriculum for our students. And it started with just me and 30 students about seven years ago, Um, kind of a home spun from scratch curriculum. One of my goals from the outset was to be a completely project based curriculum, and it's now grown. We probably have about six or 700 students, five or six full time teachers. We now have pre engineering going on at the 5th and 6th grade level. I now have students graduating. Uh, you know, graduating after senior year with, like, seven years of engineering under their belt and heading off to doing some pretty cool stuff. So it's It's been a lot of fun building a program and, um, and learning a lot in the process. >>That's awesome. I mean, you know, Cuba's. We've been passionate about things like women in tech, uh, diversity stem. You know, not only do we need more, more students and stem, we need mawr underrepresented women, minorities, etcetera. We were just talking to John Herstek and integrate gration about this is Do you do you feel is though you're I mean, first of all, the work that you do is awesome, but but I'll go one step further. Do you feel as though it's reaching, um, or diverse base? And how is that going? >>That's a great question. I think research shows that a lot of people get funneled into one kind of track or career path or set of interests really early on in their educational career, and sometimes that that funnel is kind of artificial. And so that's one of the reasons we keep pushing back. Um, so our school systems introducing kindergartners to programming on DSO We're trying to push back how we expose students to engineering and to stem fields as early as possible. And we've definitely seen the first of that in my program. In fact, my engineering program, uh, sprung out of an after school in Extracurricular Science Club that actually three girls started at our school. So I think that actually has helped that three girls started the club that eventually is what led to our engineering programs that sort of baked into the DNA and also our eyes a big public school. And we have about 50% of the students are under the poverty line and we e in Charlottesville, which is a big refugee town. And so I've been adamant from Day one that there are no barriers to entry into the program. There's no test you have to take. You don't have to have be taking a certain level of math or anything like that. That's been a lot of fun. To have a really diverse set of kids enter the program and be successful, >>that's final. That's great to hear. So, Philip, I wanna come back to you. You know, I think about maybe some day we'll be able to go back to a sporting events, and I know when I when I'm in there, there's somebody up on the roof looking out for me, you know, watching the crowd, and they have my back. And I think in many ways, the products that you build, you know, our similar. I may not know they're there, but they're keeping us safe or they're measuring things that that that I don't necessarily see. But I wonder if you could talk about a little bit more detail about the products you build and how they're impacting society. >>Sure, so There are certainly a lot of people who are who are watching, trying to make sure things were going well in keeping you safe that you may or may not be aware of. And we try and support ah lot of them. So we have detectors that are that are deployed in a variety of variety of uses, with a number of agencies and governments that dio like I was saying, ports and border crossing some other interesting applications that are looking for looking for signals that should not be there and working closely to fit into the operations these folks do. Onda. We also have a lot of outreach to researchers and scientists trying to help them support the work they're doing. Um, using neutron detection for soil moisture monitoring is a some really cool opportunities for doing it at large scale and with much less, um, expense or complication than would have been done. Previous technologies. Um, you know, they were talking about collaboration in the previous segment. We've been able to join a number of conferences for that, virtually including one that was supposed to be held in Boston, but another one that was held out of the University of Heidelberg in Germany. And, uh, this is sort of things that in some ways, the pandemic is pushing people towards greater collaboration than they would have been able to do. Had it all but in person. >>Yeah, we did. Uh, the cube did live works a couple years ago in Boston. It was awesome show. And I think, you know, with this whole trend toward digit, I call it the Force march to digital. Thanks to cove it I think that's just gonna continue. Thio grow. Rafael. What if you could describe the process that you use to better understand diseases? And what's your organization's involvement? Been in more detail, addressing the cove in pandemic. >>Um, so so we have the bio be structured in, Um um in a way that foster so the combination of technology and science. So we have to scientific tracks, one about infectious diseases and the other one about understanding just basic human biology, how the human body functions, and especially how the cells in the human body function on how they're organized to create tissues in the body. On Ben, it has this set of platforms. Um, mind is one of them by engineering that are all technology rated. So we have data science platform, all about data analysis, machine learning, things like that. Um, we have a mass spectrometry platform is all about mass spectrometry technologies to, um, exploit those ones in service for the scientist on. We have a genomics platform that it's all about sequencing DNA and are gonna, um and then an advanced microscopy. It's all about developing technologies, uh, to look at things with advanced microscopes and developed technologies to marry computation on microscopy. So, um, the scientists set the agenda and the platforms, we just serve their needs, support their needs, and hopefully develop technologies that help them do their experiments better, faster, or allow them to the experiment that they couldn't do in any other way before. Um And so with cove, it because we have that very strong group of scientists that work on have been working on infectious disease before, and especially in viruses, we've been able to very quickly pivot to working on that s O. For example, my team was able to build pretty quickly a machine to automatically purified proteins on is being used to purify all these different important proteins in the cove. It virus the SARS cov to virus Onda. We're sending some of those purified proteins all over the world. Two scientists that are researching the virus and trying to figure out how to develop vaccines, understand how the virus affects the body and all that. Um, so some of the machines we built are having a very direct impact on this. Um, Also for the copy testing lab, we were able to very quickly develop some very simple machines that allowed the lab to function sort of faster and more efficiently. Sort of had a little bit of automation in places where we couldn't find commercial machines that would do it. >>Um, eso Matt. I mean, you gotta be listening to this and thinking about Okay, So someday your students are gonna be working at organizations like like, like Bio Hub and Silver Side. And you know, a lot of young people they're just don't know about you guys, but like my kids, they're really passionate about changing the world. You know, there's way more important than you know, the financial angles and it z e. I gotta believe you're seeing that you're right in the front lines there. >>Really? Um, in fact, when I started the curriculum six or seven years ago, one of the first bits of feedback I got from my students is they said Okay, this is a lot of fun. So I had my students designing projects and programming microcontrollers raspberry, PiS and order we nose and things like that. The first bit of feedback I got from students was they said Okay, when do we get to impact the world? I've heard engineering >>is about >>making the world a better place, and robots are fun and all, but, you know, where is the real impact? And so um, dude, yeah, thanks to the guidance of my students, I'm baking that Maurin. Now I'm like day one of engineering one. We talk about how the things that the tools they're learning and the skills they're gaining, uh, eventually, you know, very soon could be could be used to make the world a better place. >>You know, we all probably heard that famous line by Jeff Hammer Barker. The greatest minds of my generation are trying to figure out how to get people to click on ads. I think we're really generally generationally, finally, at the point where young students and engineering a really, you know, a passionate about affecting society. I wanna get into the product, you know, side and understand how each of you are using on shape and and the value that that it brings. Maybe Raphael, you could start how long you've been using it. You know, what's your experience with it? Let's let's start there. >>I begin for about two years, and I switched to it with some trepidation. You know, I was used to always using the traditional product that you have to install on your computer, that everybody uses that. So I was kind of locked into that. But I started being very frustrated with the way it worked, um, and decided to give on ship chance. Which reputation? Because any change always, you know, causes anxiety. Um, but very quickly my engineers started loving it, Uh, just because it's it's first of all, the learning curve wasn't very difficult at all. You can transfer from one from the traditional product to entree very quickly and easily. You can learn all the concepts very, very fast. It has all the functionality that we needed and and what's best is that it allows to do things that we couldn't do before or we couldn't do easily. Now we can access the our cat documents from anywhere in the world. Um, so when we're in the lab fabricating something or testing a machine, any computer we have next to us or a tablet or on iPhone, we can pull it up and look at the cad and check things or make changes. That's something that couldn't do before because before you had to pay for every installation off the software for the computer, and I couldn't afford to have 20 installations to have some computers with the cat ready to use them like once every six months would have been very inefficient. So we love that part. And the collaboration features are fantastic, especially now with Kobe, that we have to have all the remote meetings eyes fantastic, that you can have another person drive the cad while the whole team is watching that person change the model and do things and point to things that is absolutely revolutionary. We love it. The fact that you have very, very sophisticated version control before it was always a challenge asking people, please, if you create anniversary and apart, how do we name it so that people find it? And then you end up with all these collection of files with names that nobody ever remembers, what they are, the person left. And now nobody knows which version is the right one. A mess with on shape on the version ING system it has, and the fact that you can go back in history off the document and go back to previous version so easily and then go back to the press and version and explore the history of the part that is truly, um, just world changing for us, that we can do that so easily on for me as a manager to manage this collection of information that is critical for our operations. It makes it so much easier because everything is in one place. I don't have to worry about file servers that go down that I have to administer that have to have I t taken care off that have to figure how to keep access to people to those servers when they're at home, and they need a virtual private network and all of that mess disappears. I just simply give give a person in accounting on shape and then magically, they have access to everything in the way I want. And we can manage the lower documents and everything in a way that is absolutely fantastic. >>Feel what was your what? What were some of the concerns you had mentioned? You had some trepidation. Was it a performance? Was it security? You know some of the traditional cloud stuff, and I'm curious as to how, How, whether any of those act manifested really that you had to manage. What were your concerns? >>Look, the main concern is how long is it going to take for everybody in the team to learn to use the system like it and buy into it? Because I don't want to have my engineers using tools against their will write. I want everybody to be happy because that's how they're productive. They're happy, and they enjoyed the tools they have. That was my main concern. I was a little bit worried about the whole concept of not having the files in a place where I couldn't quote unquote seat in some server and on site, but that That's kind of an outdated concept, right? So that took a little bit of a mind shift, but very quickly. Then I started thinking, Look, I have a lot of documents on Google Drive. Like, I don't worry about that. Why would I worry about my cat on on shape, right? Is the same thing. So I just needed to sort of put things in perspective that way. Um, the other, um, you know, the concern was the learning curve, right? Is like, how is he Will be for everybody to and for me to learn it on whether it had all of the features that we needed. And there were a few features that I actually discussed with, um uh, Cody at on shape on, they were actually awesome about using their scripting language in on shape to sort of mimic some of the features of the old cat, uh, in on, shaped in a way that actually works even better than the old system. So it was It was amazing. Yeah, >>Great. Thank you for that, Philip. What's your experience been? Maybe you could take us through your journey within shape. >>Sure. So we've been we've been using on shaped silver side for coming up on about four years now, and we love it. We're very happy with it. We have a very modular product line, so we make anything from detectors that would go into backpacks. Two vehicles, two very large things that a shipping container would go through and saw. Excuse me. Shape helps us to track and collaborate faster on the design. Have multiple people working a same time on a project. And it also helps us to figure out if somebody else comes to us and say, Hey, I want something new how we congrats modules from things that we already have put them together and then keep track of the design development and the different branches and ideas that we have, how they all fit together. A za design comes together, and it's just been fantastic from a mechanical engineering background. I will also say that having used a number of different systems and solid works was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Before I got using on shape, I went, Wow, this is amazing and I really don't want to design in any other platform. After after getting on Lee, a little bit familiar with it. >>You know, it's funny, right? I'll have the speed of technology progression. I was explaining to some young guns the other day how I used to have a daytime er and that was my life. And if I lost that daytime, er I was dead. And I don't know how we weigh existed without, you know, Google maps eso we get anywhere, I don't know, but, uh but so So, Matt, you know, it's interesting to think about, you know, some of the concerns that Raphael brought up, you hear? For instance, you know, all the time. Wow. You know, I get my Amazon bill at the end of the month that zip through the roof in, But the reality is that Yeah, well, maybe you are doing more, but you're doing things that you couldn't have done before. And I think about your experience in teaching and educating. I mean, you so much more limited in terms of the resource is that you would have had to be able to educate people. So what's your experience been with With on shape and what is it enabled? >>Um, yeah, it was actually talking before we went with on shape. We had a previous CAD program, and I was talking to my vendor about it, and he let me know that we were actually one of the biggest CAD shops in the state. Because if you think about it a really big program, you know, really big company might employ. 5, 10, 15, 20 cad guys, right? I mean, when I worked for a large defense contractor, I think there were probably 20 of us as the cad guys. I now have about 300 students doing cat. So there's probably more students with more hours of cat under their belt in my building than there were when I worked for the big defense contractor. Um, but like you mentioned, uh, probably our biggest hurdle is just re sources. And so we want We want one of things I've always prided myself and trying to do in this. Programs provide students with access two tools and skills that they're going to see either in college or in the real world. So it's one of the reason we went with a big professional cad program. There are, you know, sort of K 12 oriented software and programs and things. But, you know, I want my kids coding and python and using slack and using professional type of tools on DSO when it comes to cat. That's just that That was a really hurt. I mean, you know, you could spend $30,000 on one seat of, you know, professional level cad program, and then you need a $30,000 computer to run it on if you're doing a heavy assemblies, Um and so one of my dreams And it was always just a crazy dream. And I was the way I would always pitcher in my school system and say, someday I'm gonna have a kid on a school issued chromebook in subsidized housing, on public WiFi doing professional level bad and that that was a crazy statement until a couple of years ago. So we're really excited that I literally and you know, March and you said the forced march, the forced march into, you know, modernity, March 13th kids sitting in my engineering lab that we spent a lot of money on doing cad March 14th. Those kids were at home on their school issued chromebooks on public WiFi, uh, keeping their designs going and collaborating. And then, yeah, I could go on and on about some of the things you know, the features that we've learned since then they're even better. So it's not like this is some inferior, diminished version of Academy. There's so much about it. Well, I >>wanna I wanna ask you that I may be over my skis on this, but we're seeing we're starting to see the early days of the democratization of CAD and product design. It is the the citizen engineer, I mean, maybe insulting to the engineers in the room, But but is that we're beginning to see that >>I have to believe that everything moves into the cloud. Part of that is democratization that I don't need. I can whether you know, I think artists, you know, I could have a music studio in my basement with a nice enough software package. And Aiken, I could be a professional for now. My wife's a photographer. I'm not allowed to say that I could be a professional photographer with, you know, some cloud based software, and so, yeah, I do think that's part of what we're seeing is more and more technology is moving to the cloud. >>Philip. Rafael Anything you Dad, >>I think I mean, yeah, that that that combination of cloud based cat and then three d printing that is becoming more and more affordable on ubiquitous It's truly transformative, and I think for education is fantastic. I wish when I was a kid I had the opportunity to play with those kinds of things because I was always the late things. But, you know, the in a very primitive way. So, um, I think this is a dream for kids. Teoh be able to do this. And, um, yeah, there's so many other technologies coming on, like Arduino on all of these electronic things that live kids play at home very cheaply with things that back in my day would have been unthinkable. >>So we know there's a go ahead. Philip, please. >>We had a pandemic and silver site moved to a new manufacturing facility this year. I was just on the shop floor, talking with contractors, standing 6 ft apart, pointing at things. But through it all, our CAD system was completely unruffled. Nothing stopped in our development work. Nothing stopped in our support for existing systems in the field. We didn't have to think about it. We had other server issues, but none with our, you know, engineering cad, platform and product development in support world right ahead, which was cool, but also a in that's point. I think it's just really cool what you're doing with the kids. The most interesting secondary and college level engineering work that I did was project based, taken important problem to the world. Go solve it and that is what we do here. That is what my entire career has been. And I'm super excited to see. See what your students are going to be doing, uh, in there home classrooms on their chromebooks now and what they do building on that. >>Yeah, I'm super excited to see your kids coming out of college with engineering degrees because, yeah, I think that Project based experience is so much better than just sitting in a classroom, taking notes and doing math problems on day. I think it will give the kids a much better flavor. What engineering is really about Think a lot of kids get turned off by engineering because they think it's kind of dry because it's just about the math for some very abstract abstract concept on they are there. But I think the most important thing is just that hands on a building and the creativity off, making things that you can touch that you can see that you can see functioning. >>Great. So, you know, we all know the relentless pace of technology progression. So when you think about when you're sitting down with the folks that on shape and there the customer advisor for one of the things that that you want on shape to do that it doesn't do today >>I could start by saying, I just love some of the things that does do because it's such a modern platform. And I think some of these, uh, some some platforms that have a lot of legacy and a lot of history behind them. I think we're dragging some of that behind them. So it's cool to see a platform that seemed to be developed in the modern era, and so that Z it is the Google docks. And so the fact that collaboration and version ing and link sharing is and like platform agnostic abilities, the fact that that seems to be just built into the nature of the thing so far, That's super exciting. As far as things that, uh, to go from there, Um, I don't know, >>Other than price. >>You can't say >>I >>can't say lower price. >>Yeah, so far on P. D. C. S that work with us. Really? Well, so I'm not complaining. There you there, >>right? Yeah. Yeah. No gaps, guys. Whitespace, Come on. >>We've been really enjoying the three week update. Cadence. You know, there's a new version every three weeks and we don't have to install it. We just get all the latest and greatest goodies. One of the trends that we've been following and enjoying is the the help with a revision management and release work flows. Um, and I know that there's more than on shape is working on that we're very excited for, because that's a big important part about making real hardware and supporting it in the field. Something that was cool. They just integrated Cem markup capability. In the last release that took, we were doing that anyway, but we were doing it outside of on shapes. And now we get to streamline our workflow and put it in the CAD system where We're making those changes anyway when we're reviewing drawings and doing this kind of collaboration. And so I think from our perspective, we continue to look forward. Toa further progress on that. There's a lot of capability in the cloud that I think they're just kind of scratching the surface on you, >>right? I would. I mean, you're you're asking to knit. Pick. I would say one of the things that I would like to see is is faster regeneration speed. There are a few times with convicts, necessities that regenerating the document takes a little longer than I would like. It's not a serious issue, but anyway, I I'm being spoiled, >>you know? That's good. I've been doing this a long time, and I like toe ask that question of practitioners and to me, it It's a signal like when you're nit picking and that's what you're struggling to knit. Pick that to me is a sign of a successful product, and and I wonder, I don't know, uh, have the deep dive into the architecture. But are things like alternative processors. You're seeing them hit the market in a big way. Uh, you know, maybe helping address the challenge, But I'm gonna ask you the big, chewy question now. Then we maybe go to some audience questions when you think about the world's biggest problems. I mean, we're global pandemics, obviously top of mind. You think about nutrition, you know, feeding the global community. We've actually done a pretty good job of that. But it's not necessarily with the greatest nutrition, climate change, alternative energy, the economic divides. You've got geopolitical threats and social unrest. Health care is a continuing problem. What's your vision for changing the world and how product innovation for good and be applied to some of the the problems that that you all are passionate about? Big question. Who wants toe start? >>Not biased. But for years I've been saying that if you want to solve the economy, the environment, uh, global unrest, pandemics, education is the case. If you wanna. If you want to, um, make progress in those in those realms, I think funding funding education is probably gonna pay off pretty well. >>Absolutely. And I think Stam is key to that. I mean, all of the ah lot of the well being that we have today and then industrialized countries. Thanks to science and technology, right improvements in health care, improvements in communication, transportation, air conditioning. Um, every aspect of life is touched by science and technology. So I think having more kids studying and understanding that is absolutely key. Yeah, I agree, >>Philip, you got anything to add? >>I think there's some big technical problems in the world today, Raphael and ourselves there certainly working on a couple of them. Think they're also collaboration problems and getting everybody to be able to pull together instead of pulling separately and to be able to spur the ideas on words. So that's where I think the education side is really exciting. What Matt is doing and it just kind of collaboration in general when we could do provide tools to help people do good work. Uh, that is, I think, valuable. >>Yeah, I think that's a very good point. And along those lines, we have some projects that are about creating very low cost instruments for low research settings, places in Africa, Southeast Asia, South America, so that they can do, um, um, biomedical research that it's difficult to do in those place because they don't have the money to buy the fancy lab machines that cost $30,000 an hour. Um, so we're trying to sort of democratize some of those instruments. And I think thanks to tools like Kahn shape then is easier, for example, to have a conversation with somebody in Africa and show them the design that we have and discuss the details of it with them on. But it's amazing, right to have somebody, you know, 10 time zones away, Um, looking really life in real time with you about your design and discussing the details or teaching them how to build a machine, right? Because, um, you know, they have a three D printer. You can you can just give them the design and say like, you build it yourself, uh, even cheaper than and, you know, also billing and shipping it there. Um, so all that that that aspect of it is also super important. I think for any of these efforts to improve some of the hardest part was in the world for climate change. Do you say, as you say, poverty, nutrition issues? Um, you know, availability of water. You have that project at about finding water. Um, if we can also help deploy technologies that teach people remotely how to create their own technologies or how to build their own systems that will help them solve those forms locally. I think that's very powerful. >>Yeah, the point about education is right on. I think some people in the audience may be familiar with the work of Erik Brynjolfsson and Andrew McAfee, the second machine age where they sort of put forth the premise that, uh, is it laid it out. Look, for the first time in history, machines air replacing humans from a cognitive perspective. Machines have always replaced humans, but that's gonna have an impact on jobs. But the answer is not toe protect the past from the future. The answer is education and public policy that really supports that. So I couldn't agree more. I think it's a really great point. Um, we have We do have some questions from the audience. If if we could If I can ask you guys, um, you know, this one kind of stands out. How do you see artificial intelligence? I was just talking about machine intelligence. Um, how do you see that? Impacting the design space guys trying to infuse a I into your product development. Can you tell me? >>Um, absolutely, like, we're using AI for some things, including some of these very low cost instruments that will hopefully help us diagnose certain diseases, especially this is that are very prevalent in the Third World. Um, and some of those diagnostics are these days done by thes armies of technicians that are trained to look under the microscope. But, um, that's a very slow process. Is very error prone and having machine learning systems that can to the same diagnosis faster, cheaper and also little machines that can be taken to very remote places to these villages that have no access to a fancy microscope. To look at a sample from a patient that's very powerful. And I we don't do this, but I have read quite a bit about how certain places air using a Tribune attorneys to actually help them optimize designs for parts. So you get these very interesting looking parts that you would have never thought off a person would have never thought off, but that are incredibly light ink. Earlier, strong and I have all sort of properties that are interesting thanks to artificial intelligence machine learning in particular >>yet another. The advantage you get when when your work is in the cloud I've seen. I mean, there's just so many applications that so if the radiology scan is in the cloud and the radiologist is goes to bed at night, Radiologist could come in in the morning and and say, Oh, the machine while you were sleeping was using artificial intelligence to scan these 40,000 images. And here's the five that we picked out that we think you should take a closer look at. Or like Raphael said, I can design my part. My, my, my, my, my you know, mount or bracket or whatever and go to sleep. And then I wake up in the morning. The machine has improved. It for me has made it strider strider stronger and lighter. Um And so just when your when your work is in the cloud, that's just that's a really cool advantage that you get that you can have machines doing some of your design work for you. >>Yeah, we've been watching, uh, you know, this week is this month, I guess is AWS re invent and it's just amazing to see how much effort is coming around machine learning machine intelligence. You know Amazon has sage maker Google's got, you know, embedded you no ML and big query. Uh, certainly Microsoft with Azure is doing tons of stuff and machine learning. I think the point there is that that these things will be infused in tow R and D and in tow software product by the vendor community. And you all will apply that to your business and and build value through the unique data that your collecting, you know, in your ecosystems. And and that's how you add value. You don't have to be necessarily, you know, developers of artificial intelligence, but you have to be practitioners to apply that. Does that make sense to you, Philip? >>Yeah, absolutely. And I think your point about value is really well chosen. We see AI involved from the physics simulations all the way up to interpreting radiation data, and that's where the value question, I think, is really important because it's is the output of the AI giving helpful information that the people that need to be looking at it. So if it's curating a serious of radiation alert, saying, Hey, like these air the anomalies. You need to look at eyes it, doing that in a way that's going to help a good response on. In some cases, the II is only as good as the people. That sort of gave it a direction and turn it loose. And you want to make sure that you don't have biases or things like that underlying your AI that they're going to result in less than helpful outcomes coming from it. So we spend quite a lot of time thinking about how do we provide the right outcomes to people who are who are relying on our systems? >>That's a great point, right? Humans air biased and humans build models, so models are inherently biased. But then the software is hitting the market. That's gonna help us identify those biases and help us, you know? Of course. Correct. So we're entering Cem some very exciting times, guys. Great conversation. I can't thank you enough for spending the time with us and sharing with our audience the innovations that you're bringing to help the world. So thanks again. >>Thank you so much. >>Thank you. >>Okay. Welcome. Okay. When we come back, John McElheny is gonna join me. He's on shape. Co founder. And he's currently the VP of strategy at PTC. He's gonna join the program. We're gonna take a look at what's next and product innovation. I'm Dave Volonte and you're watching innovation for good on the Cube, the global leader. Digital technology event coverage. We'll be right back. >>Okay? Okay. Yeah. Okay. >>From around >>the globe, it's the Cube. Presenting innovation for good. Brought to you by on shape. >>Okay, welcome back to innovation. For good. With me is John McElheny, who is one of the co founders of On Shape and is now the VP of strategy at PTC. John, it's good to see you. Thanks for making the time to come on the program. Thanks, Dave. So we heard earlier some of the accomplishments that you've made since the acquisition. How has the acquisition affected your strategy? Maybe you could talk about what resource is PTC brought to the table that allowed you toe sort of rethink or evolve your strategy? What can you share with us? >>Sure. You know, a year ago, when when John and myself met with Jim Pepperman early on is we're we're pondering. Started joining PTC one of things became very clear is that we had a very clear shared vision about how we could take the on shape platform and really extended for, for all of the PTC products, particular sort of their augmented reality as well as their their thing works or the i o. T business and their product. And so from the very beginning there was a clear strategy about taking on shape, extending the platform and really investing, um, pretty significantly in the product development as well as go to market side of things, uh, toe to bring on shape out to not only the PTC based but sort of the broader community at large. So So So PTC has been a terrific, terrific, um, sort of partner as we've we've gonna go on after this market together. Eso We've added a lot of resource and product development side of things. Ah, lot of resource and they go to market and customer success and support. So, really, on many fronts, that's been both. Resource is as well a sort of support at the corporate level from from a strategic standpoint and then in the field, we've had wonderful interactions with many large enterprise customers as well as the PTC channels. So it's been really a great a great year. >>Well, and you think about the challenges of in your business going to SAS, which you guys, you know, took on that journey. You know, 78 years ago. Uh, it's not trivial for a lot of companies to make that transition, especially a company that's been around as long as PTC. So So I'm wondering how much you know, I was just asking you How about what PCP TC brought to the table? E gotta believe you're bringing a lot to the table to in terms of the mindset, uh, even things is, is mundane is not the right word, but things like how you compensate salespeople, how you interact with customers, the notion of a service versus a product. I wonder if you could address >>that. Yeah, it's a it's a really great point. In fact, after we had met Jim last year, John and I one of the things we walked out in the seaport area in Boston, one of things we sort of said is, you know, Jim really gets what we're trying to do here and and part of let me bring you into the thinking early on. Part of what Jim talked about is there's lots of, you know, installed base sort of software that's inside of PTC base. That's helped literally thousands of customers around the world. But the idea of moving to sass and all that it entails both from a technology standpoint but also a cultural standpoint. Like How do you not not just compensate the sales people as an example? But how do you think about customer success? In the past, it might have been that you had professional services that you bring out to a customer, help them deploy your solutions. Well, when you're thinking about a SAS based offering, it's really critical that you get customers successful with it. Otherwise, you may have turned, and you know it will be very expensive in terms of your business long term. So you've got to get customers success with software in the very beginning. So you know, Jim really looked at on shape and he said that John and I, from a cultural standpoint, you know, a lot of times companies get acquired and they've acquired technology in the past that they integrate directly into into PTC and then sort of roll it out through their products, are there just reached channel, he said. In some respects, John John, think about it as we're gonna take PTC and we want to integrate it into on shape because we want you to share with us both on the sales side and customer success on marketing on operations. You know all the things because long term, we believe the world is a SAS world, that the whole industry is gonna move too. So really, it was sort of an inverse in terms of the thought process related to normal transactions >>on That makes a lot of sense to me. You mentioned Sharon turns the silent killer of a SAS company, and you know, there's a lot of discussion, you know, in the entrepreneurial community because you live this, you know what's the best path? I mean today, You see, you know, if you watch Silicon Valley double, double, triple triple, but but there's a lot of people who believe, and I wonder, if you come in there is the best path to, you know, in the X Y axis. If if it's if it's uh, growth on one and retention on the other axis. What's the best way to get to the upper right on? Really? The the best path is probably make sure you've nailed obviously the product market fit, But make sure that you can retain customers and then throw gas on the fire. You see a lot of companies they burn out trying to grow too fast, but they haven't figured out, you know that. But there's too much churn. They haven't figured out those metrics. I mean, obviously on shape. You know, you were sort of a pioneer in here. I gotta believe you've figured out that customer retention before you really, You know, put the pedal to the >>metal. Yeah, and you know, growth growth can mask a lot of things, but getting getting customers, especially the engineering space. Nobody goes and sits there and says, Tomorrow we're gonna go and and, you know, put 100 users on this and and immediately swap out all of our existing tools. These tools are very rich and deep in terms of capability, and they become part of the operational process of how a company designs and builds products. So any time anybody is actually going through the purchasing process. Typically, they will run a try along or they'll run a project where they look at. Kind of What? What is this new solution gonna help them dio. How are we gonna orient ourselves for success? Longer term. So for us, you know, getting new customers and customer acquisition is really critical. But getting those customers to actually deploy the solution to be successful with it. You know, we like to sort of, say, the marketing or the lead generation and even some of the initial sales. That's sort of like the Kindle ing. But the fire really starts when customers deploy it and get successful. The solution because they bring other customers into the fold. And then, of course, if they're successful with it, you know, then in fact, you have negative turn which, ironically, means growth in terms of your inside of your install. Bates. >>Right? And you've seen that with some of the emerging, you know, SAS companies, where you're you're actually you know, when you calculate whatever its net retention or renew ALS, it's actually from a dollar standpoint. It's up in the high nineties or even over 100%. >>So >>and that's a trend we're gonna continue. See, I >>wonder >>if we could sort of go back. Uh, and when you guys were starting on shape, some of the things that you saw that you were trying to strategically leverage and what's changed, you know, today we were talking. I was talking to John earlier about in a way, you kinda you kinda got a blank slate is like doing another startup. >>You're >>not. Obviously you've got installed base and customers to service, but But it's a new beginning for you guys. So one of the things that you saw then you know, cloud and and sas and okay, but that's we've been there, done that. What are you seeing? You know today? >>Well, you know, So So this is a journey, of course, that that on shape on its own has gone through it had I'll sort of say, you know, several iterations, both in terms of of of, you know, how do you How do you get customers? How do you How do you get them successful? How do you grow those customers? And now that we've been part of PTC, the question becomes okay. One, There is certainly a higher level of credibility that helps us in terms of our our megaphone is much bigger than it was when we're standalone company. But on top of that now, figuring out how to work with their channel with their direct sales force, you know, they have, um, for example, you know, very large enterprises. Well, many of those customers are not gonna go in forklift out their existing solution to replace it with with on shape. However, many of them do have challenges in their supply chain and communications with contractors and vendors across the globe. And so, you know, finding our fit inside of those large enterprises as they extend out with their their customers is a very interesting area that we've really been sort of incremental to to PTC. And then, you know, they they have access to lots of other technology, like the i o. T business. And now, of course, the augmented reality business that that we can bring things to bear. For example, in the augmented reality world, they've they've got something called expert capture. And this is essentially imagine, you know, in a are ah, headset that allows you to be ableto to speak to it, but also capture images still images in video. And you could take somebody who's doing their task and capture literally the steps that they're taking its geo location and from their builds steps for new employees to be, we'll learn and understand how todo use that technology to help them do their job better. Well, when they do that, if there is replacement products or variation of of some of the tools that that they built the original design instruction set for they now have another version. Well, they have to manage multiple versions. Well, that's what on shape is really great at doing and so taking our technology and helping their solutions as well. So it's not only expanding our customer footprint, it's expanding the application footprint in terms of how we can help them and help customers. >>So that leads me to the tam discussion and again, as part of your strategist role. How do you think about that? Was just talking to some of your customers earlier about the democratization of cat and engineering? You know, I kind of joked, sort of like citizen engineering, but but so that you know, the demographics are changing the number of users potentially that can access the products because the it's so much more of a facile experience. How are you thinking about the total available market? >>It really is a great question, You know, it used to be when you when you sold boxes of software, it was how many engineers were out there. And that's the size of the market. The fact that matter is now when, When you think about access to that information, that data is simply a pane of glass. Whether it's a computer, whether it's a laptop, UH, a a cell phone or whether it's a tablet, the ability to to use different vehicles, access information and data expands the capabilities and power of a system to allow feedback and iteration. I mean, one of the one of the very interesting things is in technology is when you can take something and really unleash it to a larger audience and builds, you know, purpose built applications. You can start to iterate, get better feedback. You know there's a classic case in the clothing industry where Zara, you know, is a fast sort of turnaround. Agile manufacturer. And there was a great New York Times article written a couple years ago. My wife's a fan of Zara, and I think she justifies any purchases by saying, You know, Zara, you gotta purchase it now. Otherwise it may not be there the next time. Yet you go back to the store. They had some people in a store in New York that had this woman's throw kind of covering Shaw. And they said, Well, it would be great if we could have this little clip here so we can hook it through or something. And they sent a note back toe to the factory in Spain, and literally two weeks later they had, you know, 4000 of these things in store, and they sold out because they had a closed loop and iterative process. And so if we could take information and allow people access in multiple ways through different devices and different screens, that could be very specific information that, you know, we remove a lot of the engineering data book, bring the end user products conceptually to somebody that would have had to wait months to get the actual physical prototype, and we could get feedback well, Weaken have a better chance of making sure whatever product we're building is the right product when it ultimately gets delivered to a customer. So it's really it's a much larger market that has to be thought of rather than just the kind of selling A boxes software to an engineer. >>That's a great story. And again, it's gonna be exciting for you guys to see that with. The added resource is that you have a PTC, Um, so let's talk. I promise people we wanna talk about Atlas. Let's talk about the platform. A little bit of Atlas was announced last year. Atlas. For those who don't know it's a SAS space platform, it purports to go beyond product lifecycle management and you You're talking cloud like agility and scale to CAD and product design. But John, you could do a better job than I. What do >>we need to know about Atlas? Well, I think Atlas is a great description because it really is metaphorically sort of holding up all of the PTC applications themselves. But from the very beginning, when John and I met with Jim, part of what we were intrigued about was that he shared a vision that on shape was more than just going to be a cad authoring tool that, in fact, you know, in the past these engineering tools were very powerful, but they were very narrow in their purpose and focus. And we had specialty applications to manage the versions, etcetera. What we did in on shape is we kind of inverted that thinking. We built this collaboration and sharing engine at the core and then kind of wrap the CAD system around it. But that collaboration sharing and version ING engine is really powerful. And it was that vision that Jim had that he shared that we had from the beginning, which was, how do we take this thing to make a platform that could be used for many other applications inside of inside of any company? And so not only do we have a partner application area that is is much like the APP store or Google play store. Uh, that was sort of our first Stan Shih ation of this. This this platform. But now we're extending out to broader applications and much meatier applications. And internally, that's the thing works in the in the augmented reality. But there'll be other applications that ultimately find its way on top of this platform. And so they'll get all the benefits of of the collaboration, sharing the version ing the multi platform, multi device. And that's an extremely extremely, um, strategic leverage point for the company. >>You know, it's interesting, John, you mentioned the seaport before. So PTC, for those who don't know, built a beautiful facility down at the Seaport in Boston. And, of course, when PTC started, you know, back in the mid 19 eighties, there was nothing at the seaport s. >>So it's >>kind of kind of ironic, you know, we were way seeing the transformation of the seaport. We're seeing the transformation of industry and of course, PTC. And I'm sure someday you'll get back into that beautiful office, you know? Wait. Yeah, I'll bet. And, uh and but I wanna bring this up because I want I want you to talk about the future. How you how you see that our industry and you've observed this has moved from very product centric, uh, plat platform centric with sass and cloud. And now we're seeing ecosystems form around those products and platforms and data flowing through the ecosystem powering, you know, new innovation. I wonder if you could paint a picture for us of what the future looks like to you from your vantage point. >>Yeah, I think one of the key words you said there is data because up until now, data for companies really was sort of trapped in different applications. And it wasn't because people were nefarious and they want to keep it limited. It was just the way in which things were built. And, you know, when people use an application like on shape, what ends up happening is there their day to day interaction and everything that they do is actually captured by the platform. And, you know, we don't have access to that data. Of course it's it's the customer's data. But as as an artifact of them using the system than doing their day to day job, what's happening is they're creating huge amounts of information that can then be accessed and analyzed to help them both improve their design process, improve their efficiencies, improve their actual schedules in terms of making sure they can hit delivery times and be able to understand where there might be roadblocks in the future. So the way I see it is companies now are deploying SAS based tools like on shape and an artifact of them. Using that platform is that they have now analytics and tools to better understand and an instrument and manage their business. And then from there, I think you're going to see, because these systems are all you know extremely well. Architected allow through, you know, very structured AP. I calls to connect other SAS based applications. You're gonna start seeing closed loop sort of system. So, for example, people design using on shape, they end up going and deploying their system or installing it, or people use the end using products. People then may call back into the customers support line and report issues, problems, challenges. They'll be able to do traceability back to the underlying design. They'll be able to do trend analysis and defect analysis from the support lines and tie it back and closed loop the product design, manufacture, deployment in the field sort of cycles. In addition, you can imagine there's many things that air sort of as designed. But then when people go on site and they have to install it. There's some alterations modifications. Think about think about like a large air conditioning units for buildings. You go and you go to train and you get a large air conditioning unit that put up on top of building with a crane. They have to build all kinds of adaptors to make sure that that will fit inside of the particulars of that building. You know, with on shape and tools like this, you'll be able to not only take the design of what the air conditioning system might be, but also the all the adapter plates, but also how they installed it. So it sort of as designed as manufactured as stalled. And all these things can be traced, just like if you think about the transformation of customer service or customer contacts. In the early days, you used to have tools that were PC based tools called contact management solution, you know, kind of act or gold mine. And these were basically glorified Elektronik role in Texas. It had a customer names and they had phone numbers and whatever else. And Salesforce and Siebel, you know, these types of systems really broadened out the perspective of what a customer relationship? Waas. So it wasn't just the contact information it was, you know, How did they come to find out about you as a company? So all of the pre sort of marketing and then kind of what happens after they become a customer and it really was a 3 60 view. I think that 3 60 view gets extended to not just to the customers, but also tools and the products they use. And then, of course, the performance information that could come back to the manufacturer. So, you know, as an engineer, one of the things you learn about with systems is the following. And if you remember, when the CD first came out CDs that used to talk about four times over sampling or eight times over sampling and it was really kind of, you know, the fidelity the system. And we know from systems theory that the best way to improve the performance of a system is to actually have more feedback. The more feedback you have, the better system could be. And so that's why you get 16 60 for example, etcetera. Same thing here. The more feedback we have of different parts of a company that a better performance, The company will be better customer relationships. Better, uh, overall financial performance as well. So that's that's the view I have of how these systems all tied together. >>It's a great vision in your point about the data is I think right on. It used to be so fragmented in silos, and in order to take a system view, you've gotta have a system view of the data. Now, for years, we've optimized maybe on one little component of the system and that sometimes we lose sight of the overall outcome. And so what you just described, I think is, I think sets up. You know very well as we exit. Hopefully soon we exit this this covert era on John. I hope that you and I can sit down face to face at a PTC on shape event in the near term >>in the seaport in the >>seaport would tell you that great facility toe have have an event for sure. It >>z wonderful >>there. So So John McElhinney. Thanks so much for for participating in the program. It was really great to have you on, >>right? Thanks, Dave. >>Okay. And I want to thank everyone for participating. Today we have some great guest speakers. And remember, this is a live program. So give us a little bit of time. We're gonna flip this site over toe on demand mode so you can share it with your colleagues and you, or you can come back and and watch the sessions that you heard today. Uh, this is Dave Volonte for the Cube and on shape PTC. Thank you so much for watching innovation for good. Be well, Have a great holiday. And we'll see you next time. Yeah.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting innovation for good. Brought to you by on shape. >>Okay, we're back. This is Dave Volonte and you're watching innovation for good. A program on Cuba 3 65 made possible by on shape of BTC company. We're live today really live TV, which is the heritage of the Cuban. Now we're gonna go to the sources and talkto on shape customers to find out how they're applying technology to create real world innovations that are changing the world. So let me introduce our panel members. Rafael Gomez Fribourg is with the Chan Zuckerberg bio hub. A very big idea. And collaborative nonprofit was initiative that was funded by Mark Zuckerberg and his wife, Priscilla Chan, and really around diagnosing and curing and better managing infectious diseases. So really timely topic. Philip Tabor is also joining us. He's with silver side detectors which develops neutron detective detection systems. Yet you want to know if early if neutrons and radiation or in places where you don't want them, so this should be really interesting. And last but not least, Matthew Shields is with the Charlottesville schools and is gonna educate us on how he and his team are educating students in the use of modern engineering tools and techniques. Gentlemen, welcome to the Cuban to the program. This should be really interesting. Thanks for coming on. >>Hi. Or pleasure >>for having us. >>You're very welcome. Okay, let me ask each of you because you're all doing such interesting and compelling work. Let's start with Rafael. Tell us more about the bio hub and your role there, please. >>Okay. Yes. As you said, the Bio Hope is a nonprofit research institution, um, funded by Mark Zuckerberg and his wife, Priscilla Chan. Um and our main mission is to develop new technologies to help advance medicine and help, hopefully cure and manage diseases. Um, we also have very close collaborations with Universe California, San Francisco, Stanford University and the University California Berkeley on. We tried to bring those universities together, so they collaborate more of biomedical topics. And I manage a team of engineers in by joining platform. Um, and we're tasked with creating instruments for the laboratory to help the scientist boats inside the organization and also in the partner universities do their experiments in better ways in ways that they couldn't do before >>in this edition was launched five years ago. It >>was announced at the end of 2016, and we actually started operations in the beginning of 2017, which is when I joined um, so this is our third year. >>And how's how's it going? How does it work? I mean, these things >>take time. It's been a fantastic experience. Uh, the organization works beautifully. Um, it was amazing to see it grow from the beginning. I was employee number 12, I think eso When I came in, it was just a nem p off his building and MP labs. And very quickly we had something running about from anything. Eso I'm very proud of the work that we have done to make that possible. Um And then, of course, that's you mentioned now, with co vid, um, we've been able to do a lot of very cool work, um, very being of the pandemic In March, when there was a deficit of testing, uh, capacity in California, we spun up a testing laboratory in record time in about a week. It was crazy. It was a crazy project. Um, but but incredibly satisfying. And we ended up running all the way until the beginning of November, when the lab was finally shut down, we could process about 3000 samples a day. I think at the end of it all, we were able to test about 100 on the road, 150,000 samples from all over the state. We were providing free testing toe all of the Department of Public Health Department of Public Health in California, which, at the media pandemic, had no way to do testing affordably and fast. So I think that was a great service to the state. Now the state has created a testing system that will serve those departments. So then we decided that it was unnecessary to keep going with testing in the other biopsy that would shut down, >>right? Thank you for that. Now, Now, Philip, you What you do is mind melting. You basically helped keep the world safe. Maybe you describe a little bit more about silver side detectors and what your role is there and how it all works. >>Tour. So we make a nuclear bomb detectors and we also make water detectors. So we try and do our part. Thio Keep the world from blowing up and make it a better place at the same time. Both of these applications use neutron radiation detectors. That's what we make. Put them out by a port border crossing Places like that they can help make sure that people aren't smuggling, shall we say, very bad things. Um, there's also a burgeoning field of research and application where you can use neutrons with some pretty cool physics to find water so you can do things like but a detector up in the mountains and measure snowpack. Put it out in the middle of the field and measure soil moisture content. And as you might imagine, there's some really cool applications in, uh, research and agronomy and public policy for this. >>All right, so it's OK, so it's It's much more than you know, whatever fighting terrorism, it's there's a riel edge, or I kind of i o t application for what you guys do. >>You do both Zito shares. You might >>say a mat. I I look at your role is kind of scaling the brain power for for the future. Maybe tell us more about Charlottesville schools and in the mission that you're pursuing and what you do. >>Thank you. Um, I've been in Charlottesville city schools for about 11 or 12 years. I started their teaching, Um, a handful of classes, math and science and things like that. But Thescore board and my administration had the crazy idea of starting an engineering program about seven years ago. My background is an engineering is an engineering. My masters is in mechanical and aerospace engineering. And, um, I basically spent a summer kind of coming up with what might be a fun engineering curriculum for our students. And it started with just me and 30 students about seven years ago, Um, kind of a home spun from scratch curriculum. One of my goals from the outside was to be a completely project based curriculum, and it's now grown. We probably have about six or 700 students, five or six full time teachers. We now have pre engineering going on at the 5th and 6th grade level. I now have students graduating. Uh, you know, graduating after senior year with, like, seven years of engineering under their belt and heading off to doing some pretty cool stuff. So it's It's been a lot of fun building up a program and, um, and learning a lot in the process. >>That's awesome. I mean, you know, Cuba's. We've been passionate about things like women in tech, uh, diversity stem. You know, not only do we need more more students in stem, we need mawr underrepresented women, minorities, etcetera. We were just talking to John her stock and integrate Grayson about this is do you do you feel is though you're I mean, first of all, the work that you do is awesome, but but I'll go one step further. Do you feel as though it's reaching, um, or, you know, diverse base and And how is that going? >>That's a great question. I think research shows that a lot of people get funneled into one kind of track or career path or set of interests really early on in their educational career. And sometimes that that funnels kind of artificial. And so that's one of the reasons we keep pushing back. Um, so our school systems introducing kindergartners to programming on DSO. We're trying to push back how we expose students to engineering and to stem fields as early as possible, and we've definitely seen the fruits of that in my program. In fact, my engineering program, uh, sprung out of an after school in Extracurricular Science Club that actually three girls started at our school. So I think that actually has helped that three girls started the club That eventually is what led our engineering programs that sort of baked into the DNA and also are a big public school. And we have about 50% of the students are under the poverty line, and we should I mean, Charlottesville, which is a big refugee town. And so I've been adamant from Day one that there are no barriers to entry into the program. There's no test you have to take. You don't have to have be taking a certain level of math or anything like that. That's been a lot of fun. To have a really diverse set of kids and or the program and be successful, >>that's phenomenal. That's great to hear. So, Philip, I wanna come back to you. You know, I think about maybe some day we'll be able to go back to a sporting events, and I know when I when I'm in there, there's somebody up on the roof looking out for me, you know, watching the crowd. And they have my back. And I think in many ways, the products that you build, you know, our similar I may not know they're there, but they're keeping us safe or they're measuring things that that that I don't necessarily see. But I wonder if you could talk about a little bit more detail about the products you build and how they're impacting society. >>Sure, So there are certainly a lot of people who are who are watching, trying to make sure things were going well in keeping you safe that you may or may not be aware of. And we try and support ah lot of them. So we have detectors that are that are deployed in a variety of variety of uses with a number of agencies and governments that dio like I was saying, ports and border crossing some other interesting applications that are looking for looking for signals that should not be there and working closely to fit into the operations these folks do Onda. We also have ah lot of outreach to researchers and scientists trying to help them support the work they're doing, um, using neutron detection for soil moisture monitoring is a some really cool opportunities for doing it at large scale and with much less, um, expense or complication then would have been done previous technologies. Mhm. You know, they were talking about collaboration in the previous segment. We've been able to join a number of conferences for that, virtually including one that was supposed to be held in Boston. But another one that was held, uh, of the University of Heidelberg in Germany. And, uh, this is sort of things that in some ways, the pandemic is pushing people towards greater collaboration than there would have been able to do. Had it all but in person. >>Yeah, we did. Uh, the cube did live works a couple years ago in Boston. It was awesome show. And I think, you know, with this whole trend toward digit, I call it the forced march to digital. Thanks to cove it I think that's just gonna continue. Thio grow Raphael one. If you could describe the process that you used to better understand diseases and what's your organization's involvement? Been in more detail, addressing the cove in pandemic. >>Um, so so we have the bio be structured in, Um um, in a way that foster So the combination of technology and science. So we have to scientific tracks, one about infectious diseases and the other one about understanding just basic human biology how the human body functions and especially how the cells in the human body function on how they're organized to create teachers in the body. Um, and then it has the set of platforms. Um, mind is one of them by engineering that are all technology. Read it. So we have data science platform, all about data analysis, machine learning, things like that. Um, we have a mass spectrometry platform is all about mass spectrometry technologies to, um, exploit those ones in service for the scientists on. We have a genomics platform. That is all about sequencing DNA in our DNA. Um, and then an advanced microscopy. It's all about developing technologies, uh, to look at things with advanced microscopes and the little technologies to marry computation on microscope. So, um, the scientists said the agenda and the platforms we just serve their needs, support their needs, and hopefully develop technologies that help them do their experiments better, faster, or allow them to the experiment that they couldn't do in any other way before. Um And so with cove, it because we have that very strong group of scientists that work on. I have been working on infectious disease before, and especially in viruses, we've been able to very quickly pivot to working on that s O, for example, my team was able to build pretty quickly a machine to automatically purified proteins, and it's being used to purify all these different important proteins in the cove. It virus the SARS cov to virus on Dwyer, sending some of those purified proteins all over the world. Two scientists that are researching the virus and trying to figure out how to develop vaccines, understand how the virus affects the body and all that. So some of the machines we built are having a very direct impact on this. Um, Also for the copy testing lab, we were able to very quickly develop some very simple machines that allowed the lab to function sort of faster and more efficiently. Sort of had a little bit of automation in places where we couldn't find commercial machines that would do it. >>Um, God s o mat. I mean, you gotta be listening to this in thinking about, Okay? Some. Someday your students are gonna be working at organizations like Like like Bio Hub and Silver Side. And you know, a lot of young people that just have I don't know about you guys, but like my kids, they're really passionate about changing the world. You know, there's way more important than, you know, the financial angles and that z e I gotta believe you're seeing that you're right in the front lines there. >>Really? Um, in fact, when I started the curriculum six or seven years ago, one of the first bits of feedback I got from my students is they said Okay, this is a lot of fun. So I had my students designing projects and programming microcontrollers raspberry, PiS and order We nose and things like that. The first bit of feedback I got from students was they said Okay, when do we get to impact the world? I've heard engineering is about making the world a better place, and robots are fun and all, but, you know, where is the real impact? And so, um do Yeah, thanks to the guidance of my students, I'm baking that Maurin. Now I'm like Day one of engineering one. We talk about how the things that the tools they're learning and the skills they're gaining eventually you know, very soon could be could be used to make the world a better place. >>You know, we all probably heard that famous line By Jeff Hammond Barker. The greatest minds of my generation are trying to figure out how to get people to click on ads. E. I think we're really generally generationally finally, at the point where you know young students and engineering and really you know it passionate about affecting society. I wanna get into the product, you know, side and understand how each of you are using on shape and and the value that that it brings. Maybe Raphael, you could start how long you've been using it. You know, what's your experience with it? Let's let's start there. >>I begin for about two years, and I switched to it with some trepidation. You know, I was used to always using the traditional product that you have to install on your computer, that everybody uses that. So I was kind of locked into that, but I started being very frustrated with the way it worked, um, and decided to give on ship chance. Which reputation? Because any change always, you know, causes anxiety. But very quickly my engineers started loving it. Uh, just because it's it's first of all, the learning curve wasn't very difficult at all. You can transfer from one from the traditional product to entree very quickly and easily. You can learn all the concepts very, very fast. It has all the functionality that we needed, and and what's best is that it allows to do things that we couldn't do before or we couldn't do easily. Um, now we can access the our cat documents from anywhere in the world. Um, so when we're in the lab fabricating something or testing a machine, any computer we have next to us or a tablet or on iPhone, we can pull it up and look at the cad and check things or make changes that something that couldn't do before because before you had to pay for every installation off the software for the computer, and I couldn't afford to have 20 installations to have some computers with the cat ready to use them like once every six months would have been very inefficient. So we love that part. And the collaboration features are fantastic. Especially now with Kobe, that we have to have all the remote meetings, eyes fantastic, that you can have another person drive the cad while the whole team is watching that person change the model and do things and point to things that is absolutely revolutionary. We love it. The fact that you have very, very sophisticated version control before it was always a challenge asking people, please, if you create anniversary and apart, how do we name it so that people find it? And then you end up with all these collection of files with names that nobody remembers, what they are, the person left and now nobody knows which version is the right one m s with on shape on the version ING system it has, and the fact that you can go back in history off the document and go back to previous version so easily and then go back to the press and version and explore the history of the part that is truly, um, just world changing for us, that we can do that so easily on for me as a manager to manage this collection of information that is critical for our operations. It makes it so much easier because everything is in one place. I don't have to worry about file servers that go down that I have to administer that have to have I t taken care off that have to figure how to keep access to people to those servers when they're at home. And they need a virtual private network and all of that mess disappears. I just simply give give a personal account on shape. And then, magically, they have access to everything in the way I want. And we can manage the lower documents and everything in a way, that is absolutely fantastic. >>Rafael, what was your what? What were some of the concerns you had mentioned? You had some trepidation. Was it a performance? Was it security? You know, some of the traditional cloud stuff and I'm curious as to how How whether any of those act manifested were they really that you had to manage? What were your concerns? >>Look, the main concern is how long is it going to take for everybody in the team? to learn to use the system like it and buy into it because I don't want to have my engineers using tools against their will write. I want everybody to be happy because that's how they're productive. They're happy and they enjoyed the tools they have. That was my main concern. I was a little bit worried about the whole concept of not having the files in a place where I couldn't quote unquote seat in some serving on site, but that that's kind of an outdated concept, right? So that took a little bit of a mind shift. But very quickly. Then I started thinking, Look, I have a lot of documents on Google Drive like I don't worry about that. Why would I worry about my cat on on shape? Right is the same thing. So I just needed to sort of put things in perspective that way. Um, the other, um, you know, their concern was the learning curve right is like how is he will be for everybody to and for me to learn it on whether it had all of the features that we needed and there were a few features that I actually discussed with, um uh, Cody at on shape on. They were actually awesome about using their scripting language in on shape to sort of mimic some of the features of the old cat, uh, in on shaped in a way that actually works even better than the old system. So it was It was amazing. Yeah. >>Great. Thank you for that, Phillip. What's your experience been? Maybe you could take us through your journey with on shape? >>Sure. So we've been we've been using on shaped Silver Side for coming up on about four years now, and we love it. We're very happy with it. We have a very modular product line, so and we make anything from detectors that would go into backpacks? Two vehicles, two very large things that a shipping container would go through and saw. Excuse me. Shape helps us to track and collaborate faster on the design, have multiple people working a same time on a project. And it also helps us to figure out if somebody else comes to us and say, Hey, I want something new. How we congrats modules from things that we already have. Put them together and then keep track of the design development and the different branches and ideas that we have, how they all fit together. A za design comes together and it's just been fantastic from a mechanical engineering background. I will also say that having used a number of different systems and solid works was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Before I got using on shape, I went, Wow, this is amazing. And I really don't want to design in any other platform after after getting on Lee a little bit familiar with it. >>You know, it's funny, right? I will have the speed of technology progression. I was explaining to some young guns the other day how e used to have a daytime er and that was my life. And if I lost that day, timer, I was dead. And I don't know how we weigh existed without, you know, Google Maps. Eso did we get anywhere? I don't know, but, uh, but so So, Matt, you know, it's interesting to think about, um, you know, some of the concerns that Raphael brought up, you hear? For instance, you know, all the time. Wow. You know, I get my Amazon bill at the end of the month It's through the roof in. But the reality is that Yeah, well, maybe you are doing more, but you're doing things that you couldn't have done before. And I think about your experience in teaching and educating. I mean, you so much more limited in terms of the resource is that you would have had to be able to educate people. So what's your experience been with With on shape and what is it enabled? >>Um, yeah, it was actually talking before we went with on shape. We had a previous CAD program and I was talking to my vendor about it, and he let me know that we were actually one of the biggest CAD shops in the state. Because if you think about it a really big program, you know, really big company might employ 5, 10, 15, 20 cad guys, right? I mean, when I worked for a large defense contractor, I think there were probably 20 of us as the cad guys. I now have about 300 students doing cat. So there's probably more students with more hours of cat under their belt in my building than there were when I worked for the big defense contractor. Um, but like you mentioned, uh, probably our biggest hurdle is just re sources. And so we want We want one of things I've always prided myself and trying to do in this programs provide students with access two tools and skills that they're going to see either in college or in the real world. So it's one of the reason we went with a big professional cad program. There are, you know, sort of k 12 oriented software and programs and things. But, you know, I want my kids coding and python and using slack and using professional type of tools on DSO when it comes to cat. That's just that that was a really hurt. I mean, you know, you could spend $30,000 on one seat of, you know, professional level cad program, and then you need a $30,000 computer to run it on if you're doing a heavy assemblies, Um, and so one of my dreams and it was always just a crazy dream. And I was the way I would always pitcher in my school system and say someday I'm gonna have a kid on a school issued chromebook in subsidized housing on public WiFi doing professional level bad and that that was a crazy statement until a couple of years ago. So we're really excited that I literally and, you know, march in, um, you said the forced march the forced march into, you know, modernity, March 13th kids sitting in my engineering lab that we spent a lot of money on doing. Cad March 14th. Those kids were at home on their school shoot chromebooks on public WiFi, uh, keeping their designs going and collaborating. And then, yeah, I could go on and on about some of the things you know, the features that we've learned since then they're even better. So it's not like this is some inferior, diminished version of the cat. And there's so much about it, E >>wanna I wanna ask you that I may be over my skis on this, but we're seeing we're starting to see the early days of the democratization of CAD and product design. It is the the citizen engineer. I mean, maybe insulting to the engineers in the room, but but is that we're beginning to see that >>I have to believe that everything moves into the cloud. Part of that is democratization that I don't need. I can whether you know, I think artists, you know, I could have a music studio in my basement with a nice enough software package. And Aiken, I could be a professional for now. My wife's a photographer. I'm not allowed to say that I could be a professional photographer with, you know, some cloud based software. And so, yeah, I do think that's part of what we're seeing is more and more technology is moving to the cloud >>Philip or Rafael anything. Your dad, >>I think I mean yeah, that that that combination of cloud based cat and then three D printing that is becoming more and more affordable on ubiquitous It's truly transformative, and I think for education is fantastic. I wish when I was a kid I had the opportunity to play with those kinds of things because I was always the late things. But, you know, the in a very primitive way. So, um, I think there's a dream for kids Thio to be able to do this. And, um, yeah, there's so many other technologies coming on, like Arduino and all of these electronic things that live. Kids play at home very cheaply with things that back in my day would have been unthinkable. >>So we know there's a go ahead. Philip Way >>had a pandemic and silver site moved to a new manufacturing facility this year. I was just on the shop floor, talking with contractors, standing 6 ft apart, pointing at things. But through it all, our CAD system was completely unruffled. Nothing stopped in our development work. Nothing stopped in our support for existing systems in the field. We didn't have to think about it. We had other server issues, but none with our, you know, engineering cad, platform and product development and support world right ahead, which was cool, but also a That's point. I think it's just really cool what you're doing with the kids. The most interesting secondary and college level engineering work that I did was project based. It's an important problem to the world. Go solve it and that is what we do here. That is what my entire career has been. And I'm super excited to see See what your students are gonna be doing, uh, in there home classrooms on their chromebooks now and what they do. Building on that. >>Yeah, I'm super excited to see your kids coming out of college with engineering degrees because yeah, I think that project based experience is so much better than just sitting in a classroom, taking notes and doing math problems on. And I think he will give the kids a much better flavor What engineering is really about. Think a lot of kids get turned off by engineering because they think it's kind of dry because it's just about the math for some very abstract abstract concept, and they are there. But I think the most important thing is just that. Hands on a building and the creativity off, making things that you can touch that you can see that you can see functioning. >>Great. So you know, we all know the relentless pace of technology progression. So when you think about when you're sitting down with the folks that on shape and there the customer advisor for one of the things that you want on shape to do that it doesn't do today >>I could start by saying, I just love some of the things that does do because it's such a modern platform and I think some of these, uh, some some platforms that have a lot of legacy and a lot of history behind them. I think we're dragging some of that behind them. So it's cool to see a platform that seemed to be developed in a modern era. And so that's, you know, it is the Google docks. And so the fact that collaboration and version ing and link sharing is, and, like, platform agnostic abilities the fact that that seems to be just built into the nature of the thing so far, that's super exciting as far as things that it to go from there, Um, I don't know. >>Other than price, >>you can't say I >>can't say lower price. >>Yeah, so far on a PTC s that worked with us. Really well, so I'm not complaining. There. You there? >>Yeah. Yeah. No Gaps, guys. Whitespace, Come on. >>We've been really enjoying the three week update Cadence. You know, there's a new version every three weeks and we don't have to install it. We just get all the latest and greatest goodies. One of the trends that we've been following and enjoying is the the help with a revision management and release work flows. Um, and I know that there's more than on shape is working on that we're very excited for, because that's a big important part about making real hardware and supporting it in the field. Um, something that was cool. They just integrated Cem markup capability In the last release that took, we were doing that anyway, but we were doing it outside of on shapes, and now we get to streamline our workflow and put it in the CAD system where we're making those changes anyway, when we're reviewing drawings and doing this kind of collaboration. And so I think from our perspective, we continue to look forward toa further progress on that. There's a lot of capability in the cloud that I think they're just kind of scratching the surface on you. >>I would. I mean, you're you're asking to knit. Pick. I would say one of the things that I would like to see is is faster regeneration speed. There are a few times with comics necessities that regenerating the document takes a little longer than I would like to. It's not a serious issue, but anyway, I'm being spoiled, >>you know. That's good. I've been doing this a long time and I like toe Ask that question of practitioners and to me, it it's a signal like when you're nit picking and that you're struggling to knit. Pick that to me is a sign of a successful product. And And I wonder, I don't know, uh, have the deep dive into the architecture, But are things like alternative processors? You're seeing them hit the market in a big way. Uh, you know, maybe a helping address the challenge, But I'm gonna ask you the big, chewy question now, then would maybe go to some audience questions when you think about the world's biggest problems. I mean, we're global pandemics. Obviously top of mind. You think about nutrition, you know, feeding the global community. We've actually done a pretty good job of that. But it's not necessarily with the greatest nutrition climate change, alternative energy, the economic divides. You've got geopolitical threats and social unrest. Health care is a continuing problem. What's your vision for changing the world and how product innovation for good can be applied to some of the the problems that that you all are passionate about? Big question. But who wants toe start >>not biased. But for years I've been saying that if you want to solve the economy, the environment, uh, global unrest, pandemics education is the case If you wanna if you want to, um, make progress in those in those realms, I think funding funding education is probably gonna pay off pretty well. >>Absolutely. And I think stem is key to that. I mean, all of the, ah lot of the well being that we have today and then industrialized countries, thanks to science and technology, right, improvements in health care, improvements in communication, transportation, air conditioning. Um, every aspect of life is touched by science and technology. So I think having more kids studying and understanding that is absolutely key. Yeah, I agree, >>Philip, you got anything they had? >>I think there's some big technical problems in the world today, Raphael and ourselves there certainly working on a couple of them. Think they're also collaboration problems and getting everybody doing ableto pull together instead of pulling, pulling separately and to be able to spur the idea is onwards. So that's where I think the education side is really exciting. What Matt is doing and and it just kind of collaboration in general when we could do provide tools to help people do good work? Uh, that is, I think, valuable. >>Yeah, I think that's a very good point. And along those lines, we have some projects that are about creating very low cost instruments for low research settings places in Africa, Southeast Asia, South America so that they can do, um, um, biomedical research that it's difficult to do in those place because they don't have the money to buy the fancy lab machines that cost $30,000 an hour. Um, so we're trying to sort of democratize some of those instruments. And I think thanks to tools like Kahn shaped and is easier, for example, to have a conversation with somebody in Africa and show them the design that we have and discuss the details of it with them. Andi, that's amazing. Right? To have somebody you know, 10 time zones away, Um, looking really life in real time with you about your design and discussing the details or teaching them how to build a machine. Right? Because, um, you know, they have a three d printer. You can you just give them the design and say, like, you build it yourself, uh, even cheaper than and, you know, also billing and shipping it there. Um, so all that that that aspect of it is also so super important, I think, for any of these efforts to improve, um, some of the hardest part was in the world from climate change. Do you say, as you say, poverty, nutrition issues? Um, you know, availability of water. You have that project at about finding water. Um, if we can also help deploy technologies that teach people remotely how to create their own technologies or how to build their own systems that will help them solve those forms locally. I think that's very powerful. >>Yeah, that point about education is right on. I think some people in the audience may be familiar with the work of Erik Brynjolfsson and Andrew McAfee, the second machine age where they sort of put forth the premise that, uh, is it laid it out. Look, for the first time in history, machines air replacing humans from a cognitive perspective. Machines have always replaced humans, but that's gonna have an impact on jobs. But the answer is not toe protect the past from the future. Uh, the answer is education and public policy. That really supports that. So I couldn't agree more. I think it's a really great point. Um, we have We do have some questions from the audience. If if we can. If I can ask you guys, um, you know, this one kind of stands out. How do you see artificial intelligence? I was just talking about machine intelligence. Um, how do you see that? Impacting the design space guys trying to infuse a I into your product development. What can you tell me? >>Um, absolutely. Like, we're using AI for some things, including some of these very low cost instruments that will hopefully help us diagnose certain diseases, especially this is that are very prevalent in the Third World. Um, and some of those diagnostics are these days done by thes armies of technicians that are trained to look under the microscope. But, um, that's a very slow process. Is very error prone and having machine learning systems that can, to the same diagnosis faster, cheaper and also little machines that can be taken to very remote places to these villages that have no access to a fancy microscope to look at a sample from a patient that's very powerful, and I we don't do this. But I have read quite a bit about how certain places air, using a Tribune attorneys to actually help them optimize designs for parts. So you get these very interesting looking parts that you would have never thought off. A person would have never thought off, but that are incredibly light ink earlier strong and I have all sort of properties that are interesting thanks to artificial intelligence machine learning in particular, >>yet another, uh, advantage you get when when your work is in the cloud I've seen. I mean, there's just so many applications that so if the radiology scan is in the cloud and the radiologist is goes to bed at night, radiologist could come in in the morning and and say, Oh, the machine while you were sleeping was using artificial intelligence to scan these 40,000 images. And here's the five that we picked out that we think you should take a closer look at or like Raphael said. I can design my part. My, my, my, my, my you know, mount or bracket or whatever and go to sleep. And then I wake up in the morning. The machine has improved. It for me has made it strider strider stronger and lighter. Um And so just when your when your work is in the cloud, that's just that's a really cool advantage that you get that you can have machines doing some of your design work for you. >>Yeah, we've been watching, uh, you know, this week is this month, I guess is aws re invent and it's just amazing to see how much effort is coming around machine learning machine intelligence. You know, Amazon has sage maker Google's got, you know, embedded you no ML and big query. Certainly Microsoft with Azure is doing tons of stuff and machine learning. I think the point there is that that these things will be infused in tow R and D and in tow software products by the vendor community. And you all will apply that to your business and and build value through the unique data that your collecting you know, in your ecosystems. And and that's how you add value. You don't have to be necessarily, you know, developers of artificial intelligence, but you have to be practitioners to apply that. Does that make sense to you, Philip? >>Yeah, absolutely. And I think your point about value is really well chosen. We see AI involved from the physics simulations all the way up to interpreting radiation data, and that's where the value question, I think, is really important because it's is the output of the AI giving helpful information that the people that need to be looking at it. So if it's curating a serious of radiation alert, saying, Hey, like these are the anomalies you need to look at eyes it, doing that in a way that's going to help a good response on. In some cases, the II is only as good as the people. That sort of gave it a direction and turn it loose. And you want to make sure that you don't have biases or things like that underlying your AI that air going to result in, uh in less than helpful outcomes coming from it. So we spend quite a lot of time thinking about how do we provide the right outcomes to people who are who are relying on our systems? >>That's a great point, right? Humans, air biased and humans build models, so models are inherently biased. But then software is hitting the market. That's gonna help us identify those biases and help us, you know? Of course. Correct. So we're entering Cem some very exciting times, guys. Great conversation. I can't thank you enough for spending the time with us and sharing with our audience the innovations that you're bringing to help the world. So thanks again. >>Thank you so much. >>Thank you. >>Okay. You're welcome. Okay. When we come back, John McElheny is gonna join me. He's on shape. Co founder. And he's currently the VP of strategy at PTC. He's gonna join the program. We're gonna take a look at what's next and product innovation. I'm Dave Volonte and you're watching innovation for good on the Cube, the global leader. Digital technology event coverage. We'll be right back

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation you know for years marketers marketers have been pushing for more digital especially with their big conferences I heard forward-thinking CMO say the war will be won in digital but the sales teams love the belly-to-belly interaction so every year once or even sometimes more often big corporations have hosted gatherings of thousands or even tens of thousands of attendees these events were like rock concerts they had DJs in the hallway thumping music giant screens beautiful pitches highly produced videos thing a technical breakouts Food lines private dinners etc all come on it culminating in a customer appreciation event with a big-name band physical events are expensive but they generate tons of leads for the host companies and their partner ecosystems well then BOOM coronavirus hits and the marketing teams got what they wished for right overnight virtual events became a mandate if you don't have a solution you were in big trouble because your leads from these large events just dried up hello everyone this is Dave Allen day and welcome to this week's cube insights powered by ETR ETR is entering its quiet period and I won't be able to share any new data for a couple of weeks so rather than look back at the April survey in this breaking analysis we thought we'd take a pause and really talk about the virtual event landscape and just a few of the things that we've learned in the past 120 days now this isn't meant to be an exhaustive list but we do want to call out a few important items that we see is critical in this new digital world in the isolation economy every company scrambled they took one of three paths first companies either postpone their events to buy some time think like Dell technology world Google cloud next cube convey my MIT CBO event etc or to some companies flat-out canceled their events for the year until next year like snowflake and uipath forth number three they scrambled to deploy a virtual event and they went forward IBM think did this HPE discover Susac on AWS summits docker convey Monde a peggle world Vertica big data conference octane sa P sapphire and hundreds of others pushed forward so when this braking analysis I want to share some data from the cube what we've learned not only in the last hundred and twenty days but in ten years of doing events mostly physical and we want to share the new rules of events and event marketing and beyond so let's get right into it everyone knows events events have gone virtual and there are tons of people who could give you advice on approving your digital events including us and and I will in this segment but the first thing that everyone found out is they're going to attract far more people online with a free virtual event than they do with a paid physical event so removing time timing in the expensive travel dramatically increases the participation Tam the total available market here's a tweet from docker CEO Scott Johnson he says that he's looking forward to welcoming 50,000 people to his event this is based on registration data somewhere around 30,000 people logged into the live event so docker got 60% of the pre event registrants to actually log in which is outstanding but there's a lot more to this story I'll share some other stats that are worth mentioning by the way I got permission from docker to to share these numbers not surprising because the event was it was a huge success for such a small company in the end they got nearly 83,000 registrations and they continue to come in weeks after the event which was held in late May now marketers generally will cite 2 to 3 minutes as a respect-- respectable time on site for a web property docker logged in users averaged almost four and a half minutes on site that's the average the bell curve sauce superfans like this guy who was binge watching so this brings me to rule number one it's actually really easy to get people to sign up for free online events but it's not so easy to keep them there now I could talk all day about what docker did right and I'm gonna bring some examples in during this except this segment but the one thing docker did was they did a call for papers or a call for sessions and that's a lot of work but if you look at the docket on speaker list the content is all community driven not all but mostly community driven talker had to break some eggs and reject some folks but it also had a sponsor track so it gave folks another avenue to participate so big success for docker they definitely did it right which brings us to new rule number two attention is precious you got to create high-quality content and realize that you have much less time with participants than if they were in person now unfortunately the doctor docker example is a bit of an outlier it hasn't always been this pretty remember that scene in the social network the movie when a duardo pulled the funding on the servers just to get marks attention remember how Jesse Eisenberg the actor who played Zuckerberg reacted everybody else we don't crash ever if the server's are down for even a day our entire reputation is irreversibly destroyed the whole point well some of the big tech companies crashed their servers and they say there's no such thing as bad press but look at look what happened to s AP and s AP apologized publicly and its CEO told people that they made a mistake in outsourcing their event platform so this brings us to new rule number three don't crash now I come back to Dhaka Khan for a second here's a tweet from a developer who shared the network traffic profile of his network before and during docker con you can see no glitches I mean I don't mean to pick on sa P they they owned the problem and look s AP had a huge attention attendance at its digital event more than 200,000 people and over a million views so Wow you'll kill me with that problem but it underscores the importance of scaling and s AP you have to say was not alone there have been lots of fails from much smaller events here's an example that was really frustrating you try to log in at 7:59 but the event doesn't start until 8:00 sharp really come on back in 60 seconds and in another example there was a slide failure I mean many of these virtual events are glorified webinars so if you're going to rely on slide where make sure the slides will render its scale you maybe embed them into the video you know but at least this company had a back-up plan here's another example and I've redacted the email because I'm not here to throw anyone under the bus well you know kind of but but no reason to name names you know who they are but in this case an old legacy webinar platform failed and they had to move to WebEx and again at least there was a back-up plan so you know it's been tough in a lot of these cases here's a tweet from Jason Reed it kind of summed sums it up now what does he mean by vendors are not getting the job done not enough creativity well not only were platforms failing they weren't performing adequately but the virtual experience is leaving many users unenthused they're they're just one alt-tab away from something better if the virtual event fails to engage them so new rule number four is virtual events that look like webinars actually our webinar webinars I mean in fairness you know the industry had to pivot with no notice but this is why I always tell people start with the outcome that you want and work backwards that'll inform you as to the content strategy the new roles you need to assign and make no mistakes there are new rules you know there's no site inspection virtual and then you got to figure out what you want to use your experience to be there's a whole lot to figure out and this next next one is a bit of a throwaway because yeah it's so obvious and everyone talks about it but I want to bring it up because it's important because I'm amazed at how many virtual event speakers really haven't thought through their setup you can look good you know or at least less bad get those things called books and raise up the laptop figure out some better audio your better yet get a good kit send it to their home with a nice camera and a solid mic maybe you know a clearer IFB comms for the ear spend some money to look good just as you might go and buy a nice outfit even if you're a developer put on a clean t-shirt so rule number five don't cheap out on production value get your guests a good set up and coach them up it doesn't have to be over the top no just a bit thought out okay one of the biggest mistakes I've seen is event organisers they become enamored with a platform and the features of that platform that really don't support their objectives kind of feature creep or they have so many competing objectives and masters that they're serving that they lose sight of the user experience and then the event becomes a buffet of unused features rather than a buffet of engaging content now many have told me that Dave these virtual events are too long there's too much content now I don't necessarily agree I really think if you have something to say you should say it as long as you do it right and you keep people engaged so I want to talk a little bit about a to of the meteor events that we attended one was octane twenty20 hosted by octo the identity management security player and then IBM think 2020 they called it the the think digital event experience and they both had multi day events with lots of content they both organized sessions by topic and made it pretty easy to find stuff and all assessing sessions had a reasonably consistent look and feel to them which kind of helped the production value IBM had content organized and categorized which made things easy to find and they both had good search and with IBM you could go directly from the list of topics right into the videos which I really liked very easy and intuitive and as you can see here in this octane video they had a nice and very ambitious agenda that was really quite well organized and things were pretty easy to find as you can see with this crisp filtering on the left hand side and in really nice search but one of the things that has been frustrating with most of the events that I've watched is you can't get to the sessions directly from the agenda you got to go back out for some linear path and find the content and it's somewhat confusing so I want to come back to the docker count example because I think there were two things that I found interesting and useful with docker con you know this got George nailed it when he said this is how you display a virtual conference what's relevant about this picture is you have multiple simultaneous sessions running live and concurrently and you can pop in and out of them you can easily see the sessions and this tile and there's a red line this linear clock that's running in real time to show you where you are in the event agenda versus in a time of day so I felt like with docker that as a user user you're really connected to the event you come to the site and there's a hero video very easy to find the content and in fact you can't miss it it's not a sales pitch to get to the content and then I really liked what what George change was talking about in terms of the agenda and the tile layout you can see they ran simultaneous sessions and at one point up to seven at once and they gave their sponsors a track on the agenda which is very easy to navigate but what I really like as well is when you click on a tile it takes you directly to the session video and you can see the chat which docker preserved in the PO event mode and you have this easy-to-follow agenda and again you can go directly to the session video and in the chat from the agenda so many paths to find the content I mean something so simple is navigating directly from the agenda to the session most events haven't done that they make you back out and then what I call this linear manner and then go forward and find the sessions that you want and then dive in now maybe they're trying to simulate walking to a session in a Las Vegas Convention Center because it takes about that long to figure out where most of these events in these sessions live so rule number six is make it easy to discover and consume content sounds so simple why is it not happening in most events okay I'm running out of time so I want to encapsulate a number of items in one idea that we talk about all the time at the cube I ran a little survey of the day and someone asked does it really make sense to cram educational content product content partner content customer content rally content and leadership content into the constrain confines of an arbitrary one or two-day window I thought that was an interesting comment now it doesn't necessarily mean shorten up the virtual event which a lot of people think should happen people complain that these things are too long well let me leave you with this it's actually not just about events what do I mean by that well you know how everyone says that all companies are software companies or every company is a SAS company well guess what we believe that every company is a media company in 2004 at the low point of its reputation Microsoft launched channel 9 it was named after the United Airlines channel 9 that lets you listen in to the pilots and their unfiltered conversations kind of cool Microsoft understood that having an authentic voice with which to communicate to developers and serve its community was a smart thing to do and that is the key point channel 9 is about community it's not about audience metrics or lead generation both important things but Microsoft they launched this site understanding the leverage it gets out of its community of developers and instead of treating them like leads they created a site to help developers learn so rule number seven is get your best media mojo on one of the biggest failures I see with physical events and it's clearly carrying over to digital is the failure to optimize the post-event opportunity and experience so just like physical events when the event is over I see companies and their employees they're so burnt out after a virtual event because they feel like they've just given birth and what do they do now after the event they take some time off they got to recharge and when they come back they're swamped and so they're on to the next project it might be another event it might be a webinar series or some regional summits or whatever now it's interesting it feels like all tech companies talk about these days is breaking down silos but most of these parent and child events are disconnected silos sure maybe the data around the events is consolidated into a marketing cloud maybe so that you can nurture leads okay that's fine but what about the community kovat has given us a great opportunity to reimagine how we serve communities and one thing I'm certain about is that physical events they're going to come back at some point in some form but when they do there's gonna be a stronger digital component attached to them hybrids will emerge and some will serve communities better than others and in our opinion the ones that do the best job in digital and serving their communities are gonna win the marketing Wars so ask yourself how are you serving your community are you serving the best way that you can is a lead conversion your number one metric that's okay there's nothing wrong with that but how are your content consumption metrics looking what are you measuring what does your Arc of content look like what's your content and an organic media strategy what does your media stack look like media stack you ask what do you mean Dave well you nailed physical and then you were forced to do virtual overnight eventually there's going to be a hybrid that emerges so there's physical at the bottom and then there's a virtual layer and then you get this hybrid layer at some point on top of that at the very top of the stack you got apps social media you got corporate content you got TV like channel 9 you have video library's website you have tools for agile media you got media production and distribution tooling remember customers will be entering from any one of these layers of that stack and they'll be looking to you for guidance inspiration learning vision product knowledge how to's etc and you'd be delivering that primarily through content so your media stack should be designed to serve your community events software yeah sure but it's much more than that we believe that this stack will emerge not as a monolithic beast but rather as a set of scalable cloud services and api's think of paths for media that you can skin yes of course but also one that you can control add value to integrate with other platforms and fit your business as your community demands and remember new roles are emerging as a result of this pandemic and the pivot to digital the things are different really mostly from from most physical events is that it's very important to think about these roles and one of the important roles is this designer or UX developer that can actually do some coding and API integration think of it as a DevOps for digital organizations that's emerging organizations like yours will want self-service and sometimes out-of-the-box functionality and features for sure no question but we believe that as a media producer you will want to customize your media experience for your community and this work will require new skills that you haven't really prioritized in the past what what do you think what's your vision as to how this will all play out and unfold do you buy that all companies must become media companies or at least media savvy not in the sense of Corp comms but really as an organic media producer tweet me at devonté or email me at David Galante at Silicon angle comm or comment on my LinkedIn post who would react next week with some data from et our survey sphere thanks for watching this wiki bond cube insights powered by ETR this is Dave Volante we'll see you next time [Music]

>> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering Accenture Tech Vision 2020. Brought to you by Accenture. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here from theCUBE. We are high atop San Francisco at the Accenture Innovation Hub, 33rd floor of the Salesforce Tower. It's a beautiful night, but we're here for a very special occasion. It's the Tech Vision 2020 reveal, and we are happy to have the guy that runs the whole thing, he's going to reveal on stage a little bit later, but we got him in advance. He's Paul Daugherty, the chief technology and innovation officer for Accenture. Paul, great to see you as always. >> Great to see you, Jeff, too. It is a beautiful evening here, looking out over the Bay. >> If only we could turn the cameras around, but, sorry, we can't do that. >> Yeah. >> All right, so you've been at this now, the Tech Vision's been going on for 20 years, we heard earlier today. >> Yeah. >> You've been involved for almost a decade. How has this thing evolved over that time? >> Yeah, you know, we've been doing the Vision for 20 years, and what we've been trying to do is forecast what's happening with business and technology in a way that's actionable for executives. There's lots of trend forecasts and lists and things, but if you just see a list of cloud, or-- >> Jeff: Mobile's going to be really big. (laughs) >> AI, mobile, it doesn't really help you. We're trying to talk a little bit about the impact on business, impact to the world, and the decisions that you need to make. What's changed over that period of time is just the breadth of the impact that technology's having on people, so we focus a lot of our Visions on the impact on humans, on individuals, what's happening with technology, what the impact on business, we can talk about that a little bit more, but business is certainly not the back office of companies anymore. It's not just the back office and front office, either. In business, it's instrumental in the fabric of how every part of the company operates, their strategy, their operations, their products and services, et cetera, and that's really the trajectory we've seen. As technology advances, we have this accelerating exponential increase in technology, the implications for executives and the stakes just get higher and higher. >> It's weird, there are so many layers to this. One of the things we've talked about a lot is trust, and you guys talk about trust a lot. But what strikes me as kind of this dichotomy is on one hand, do I trust the companies, right? Do I trust Mark Zuckerberg with my data, to pick on him, he gets picked on all the time. That might be a question, but do I trust that Facebook is going to work? Absolutely. And so, our reliance on the technology, our confidence in the technology, our just baseline assumption that this stuff is going to work, is crazy high, up to and including people taking naps in their Teslas, (laughs) which are not autonomous vehicles! >> Not an advisable practice. >> Not autonomous vehicles! So it's this weird kind of split where it's definitely part of our lives, but it seems like kind of the consciousness is coming up as kind of the second order. What does this really mean to me? What does this mean to my data? What are people actually doing with this stuff? And am I making a good value exchange? >> Well, that's the, we talk in the Vision this year about value versus values, and the question you're asking is getting right at that, the crux between value and values. You know, businesses have been using technology to drive value for a long time. That's how applying different types of technology to enterprise, whether it be back to the mainframe days or ERP packages, cloud computing, et cetera, artificial intelligence. So value is what they were talking about in the Vision. How do you drive value using the technology? And one thing we found is there's a big gap. Only 10% of organizations are really getting full value in the way they're applying technology, and those that are are getting twice the revenue growth as companies that aren't, so that's one big gap in value. And this values point is really getting to be important, which is, as technology can be deployed in ways that are more pervasive and impact our experience, they're tracking our health details-- >> Right, right. >> They know where we are, they know what we're doing, they're anticipating what we might do next. How does that impact the values? And how are the values of companies important in other ways? The values you have around sustainability and other things are increasingly important to new generations of consumers and consumers who are thinking in new ways. This value versus values is teeing up what we call a tech-clash, which isn't a tech-lash, just, again, seeing people reacting against tech companies, as you said earlier, it's a tech-clash, which is the values that consumer citizens and people want sometimes clashing with the value of the models that companies have been using to deliver their products and services. >> Right. Well, it seems like it's kind of the "What are you optimizing for?" game, and it seems like it was such an extreme optimization towards profitability and shareholder value, and less, necessarily, employees, less, necessarily, customers, and certainly less in terms of the social impact. So that definitely seems to be changing, but is it changing fast enough? Are people really grasping it? >> Well, I think the data's mixed on that. I think there's a lot of mixed data on "What do people really want?" So people say they want more privacy, they say they want access and control of their data, but they still use a lot of the services that it may be inconsistent with the values that they talk about, and the values that come out in surveys. So, but that's changing. So consumers are getting more educated about how they want their data to be used. But the other thing that's happening is that companies are realizing that it's really a battle for experience. Experience is what, creating broader experiences, better experiences for consumers is what the battleground is. A great experience, whether you're a travel company or a bank or a manufacturing company, or whatever you might be, creating the experience requires data, and to get the data from an individual or another company, it takes trust. So this virtuous circle of experience, data, and trust is something that companies are realizing is essential to their competitive advantage going forward. We say trust is the currency of the digital and post-digital world that we're moving into. >> Right, it's just how explicit is that trust, or how explicit does it need to be? And as you said, that's unclear. People can complain on one hand, but continue to use the services, so it seems to be a little bit kind of squishy. >> It's a sliding scale. It's really a value exchange, and you have to think about it. What's the value exchange and the value that an individual consumer places on their privacy versus free access to a service? That's what's being worked out right now. >> Right, so I'm going to get your take on another thing, which is exponential curves, and you've mentioned time and time again, the pace of change is only accelerating. Well, you've been saying that, probably, for (laughs) 20 years. (Paul laughs) So the curve's just getting steeper. How do you see that kind of playing out over time? Will we eventually catch up? Is it just presumed that this is kind of the new normal? Or how is this going to shake out? 'Cause people aren't great at exponential curves. It's just not really in our DNA. >> Yeah, but I think that's the world we're operating in now, and I think the exponential potential is going to continue. We don't see a slowdown in the exponential growth rates of technology. So artificial intelligence, we're at the early days. Cloud computing, only about 20% enterprise adoption, a lot more to go. New adoptions are on the horizon, things like central bank digital currencies that we've done some research and done some work on recently. Quantum computing and quantum cryptography for networking, et cetera. So the pace of innovation is going to accelerate, and the challenge for organizations is rationalizing that and deciding how to incorporate that into their business, change their business, and change the way that they're leveraging their workforce and change the way that they're interacting with customers. And that's why what we're trying to address in the Vision is provide a little bit of that road map into how you digest it down. Now, there's also technology foundations of this. We talk about something at Accenture called living systems. Living systems is a new way of looking at the architecture of how you build your technology, because you don't have static systems anymore. Your systems have to be living and biological, adapting to the new technology, adapting to the business, adapting to new data over time. So this concept of living systems is going to be really important to organizations' success going forward. >> But the interesting thing is, one of the topics is "AI and Me," and traditional AI was very kind of purpose-built. For instance, Google Photos, can you find the cat? Can I find the kids at the beach? But you're talking about models where the AI can evolve and not necessarily be quite so data-centric around a specific application, but much more evolutionary and adaptable, based on how things change. >> Yeah, I think that's the future of AI that we see. There's been a lot of success in applying AI today, and a lot of it's been based on supervised learning, deep learning techniques that require massive amounts of data. Solving problems like machine vision requires massive amounts of data to do it right. And that'll continue. There'll continue to be problem sets that need large data. But what we're also seeing is a lot of innovation and AI techniques around small data. And we actually did some research recently, and we talk about this a little bit in our Vision, around the future being maybe smaller data sets and more structured data and intelligence around structured data, common-sense AI, and things that allow us to make breakthroughs in different ways. And that's, we used to look at "AI and Me," which is the trend around the workforce and how the workforce changes. It's those kinds of adaptations that we think are going to be really important. >> So another one is robotics, "Robots in the Wild." And you made an interesting comment-- >> Paul: Not "Robots Gone Wild," "Robots in the Wild," "Robots in the Wild." >> Well, maybe they'll go wild once they're in the wild. You never know. Once they get autonomy. Not a lot of autonomy, that's probably why. But it's kind of interesting, 'cause you talk about robots being designed to help people do a better job, as opposed to carving out a specific function for the robot to do without a person, and it seems like that's a much easier route to go, to set up a discrete thing that we can carve out and program the robot to do. Probably early days of manufacturing and doing spot welding in cars, et cetera. >> Right. >> So is it a lot harder to have the robot operate with its human partner, if you will, but are the benefits worth it? How do you kind of see that shaking out, versus, "Ah, I can carve out one more function"? >> Yeah, I think it's going to be a mix. I think there'll be, we see a lot of application of the robots paired with people in different ways, cobots in manufacturing being a great example, and something that's really taking off in manufacturing environments, but also, you have robots of different forms that serve human needs. There's a lot of interesting things going on in healthcare right now. How can you support autistic children or adults better using human-like robots and agents that can interact in different ways? A lot of interesting things around Alzheimer's and dealing with cognitive impairment and such using robots and robotics. So I think the future isn't, there's a lot of robots in the wild in the form of C-3POs and R2-D2s and those types of robots, and we'll see some of those. And those are being used widely in business today, even, in different contexts, but I think the interesting advance will be looking at robots that complement and augment and serve human needs more effectively. >> Right, right, and do people do a good enough job of getting some of the case studies? Like, you just walked through kind of the better use cases, the more humane use cases, the kind of cool medical breakthroughs, versus just continued optimization of getting me my Starbucks coupon when I walk by out front? (Paul laughs) >> Yeah, I'm not sure. >> Doesn't seem like I get the pub, like they just don't get the pub, I don't think. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe not. A little mixology is another (Jeff laughs) inflection that robots are getting good at. But I think that's what we're trying to do, is through the effort we do with the Vision, as well as our Tech for Good work and other things, is look at how we amplify and highlight some of the great work that is happening in those areas. >> So, you've been doing it for a decade. What struck you this year as being a little bit different, a little bit unexpected, not necessarily something you may have anticipated? >> I think the thing that is maybe a tipping point that I see in this Vision that I didn't anticipate is this idea that every company's really becoming a technology company. We said eight years ago, "Every business "will be a digital business," and that was, while ridiculed by some at the time, that really came true, and every business and every industry really is becoming digital or has already become digital. But I think we might've gotten it slightly wrong. Digital was kind of a step, but every company is deploying technology in the way they serve their customers, in the way they build their products and services. Every product and service is becoming technology-enabled. The ecosystem of technology providers is critical to companies in every industry. So every company's really becoming a technology company. Maybe every company needs to be as good as a digital native company at developing products and services, operating them. So I think that this idea of every company becoming a technology company, every CEO becoming a technology CEO, technology leader, is something that I think will differentiate companies going forward as well. >> Well, really, good work, you, Michael, and the team. It's fun to come here ever year, because you guys do a little twist. Like you said, it's not "Cloud's going to be really big, "mobile's going to be really big," but a little bit more thoughtful, a little bit more deep, a little bit longer kind of thought cycles on these trends. >> Yeah, and I think the, if you read through the Vision, we're trying to present a complete story, too, so it's, as you know, "We, the post-digital people." But if you look at innovation, "The I in Experience" is about serving your customers differently. "The Dilemma of Smart Machines" and "Robots in the Wild" is about your new products and services and the post-digital environment powered by technology. "AI and Me" is about the new workforce, and "Innovation DNA" is about driving continuous innovation in your organization, your culture, as you develop your business into the future. So it really is providing a complete narrative on what we think the future looks like for executives. >> Right, good, still more utopian than dystopian, I like it. >> More utopia than dystopia, but you got to steer around the roadblocks. (Jeff chuckles) >> All right, Paul, well, thanks again, and good luck tonight with the big presentation. >> Thanks, Jeff. >> All right, he's Paul, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. We're at the Accenture innovation reveal 2020, when we're going to know everything with the benefit of hindsight. Thanks for watching, (laughs) we'll see you next time. (upbeat pop music)

>>from Las Vegas. It's the Q covering. Next work. 2019 America's Do You buy Juniper Networks? Come back already. Jeffrey here with the Cube were in Las Vegas at Caesar's at the Juniper. Next work event. About 1000 people kind of going over a lot of new cool things. 400 gigs. Who knew that was coming out of new information for me? But that's not what we're here today. We're here for the fourth installment of around the Cube unpacking. I were happy to have all the winners of the three previous rounds here at the same place. We don't have to do it over the phone s so we're happy to have him. Let's jump into it. So winner of Round one was Bob Friday. He is the VP and CTO at Missed the Juniper Company. Bob, Great to see you. Good to be back. Absolutely. All the way from Seattle. Sharna Parky. She's a VP applied scientist at Tech CEO could see Sharna and, uh, from Google. We know a lot of a I happen to Google. Rajan's chef. He is the V p ay ay >>product management on Google. Welcome. Thank you, Christy. Here >>All right, so let's jump into it. So just warm everybody up and we'll start with you. Bob, What are some When you're talking to someone at a cocktail party Friday night talking to your mom And they say, What is a I What >>do you >>give him? A Zen examples of where a eyes of packing our lives today? >>Well, I think we all know the examples of the south driving car, you know? Aye, aye. Starting to help our health care industry being diagnosed cancer for me. Personally, I had kind of a weird experience last week at a retail technology event where basically had these new digital mirrors doing facial recognition. Right? And basically, you start to have little mirrors were gonna be a skeevy start guessing. Hey, you have a beard, you have some glasses, and they start calling >>me old. So this is kind >>of very personal. I have a something for >>you, Camille, but eh? I go walking >>down a mall with a bunch of mirrors, calling me old. >>That's a little Illinois. Did it bring you out like a cane or a walker? You know, you start getting some advertising's >>that were like Okay, you guys, this is a little bit over the top. >>Alright, Charlotte, what about you? What's your favorite example? Share with people? >>Yeah, E think one of my favorite examples of a I is, um, kind of accessible in on your phone where the photos you take on an iPhone. The photos you put in Google photos, they're automatically detecting the faces and their labeling them for you. They're like, Here's selfies. Here's your family. Here's your Children. And you know, that's the most successful one of the ones that I think people don't really think about a lot or things like getting loan applications right. We actually have a I deciding whether or not we get loans. And that one is is probably the most interesting one to be right now. >>Roger. So I think the father's example is probably my favorite as well. And what's interesting to me is that really a I is actually not about the Yeah, it's about the user experience that you can create as a result of a I. What's cool about Google photos is that and my entire family uses Google photos and they don't even know actually that the underlying in some of the most powerful a I in the world. But what they know is they confined every picture of our kids on the beach whenever they whenever they want to. Or, you know, we had a great example where we were with our kids. Every time they like something in the store, we take a picture of it, Um, and we can look up toy and actually find everything that they've taken picture. >>It's interesting because I think most people don't even know the power that they have. Because if you search for beach in your Google photos or you search for, uh, I was looking for an old bug picture from my high school there it came right up until you kind of explore. You know, it's pretty tricky, Raja, you know, I think a lot of conversation about A They always focus the general purpose general purpose, general purpose machines and robots and computers. But people don't really talk about the applied A that's happening all around. Why do you think that? >>So it's a good question. There's there's a lot more talk about kind of general purpose, but the reality of where this has an impact right now is, though, are those specific use cases. And so, for example, things like personalizing customer interaction or, ah, spotting trends that did that you wouldn't have spotted for turning unstructured data like documents into structure data. That's where a eyes actually having an impact right now. And I think it really boils down to getting to the right use cases where a I right? >>Sharon, I want ask you. You know, there's a lot of conversation. Always has A I replace people or is it an augmentation for people? And we had Gary Kasparov on a couple years ago, and he talked about, you know, it was the combination if he plus the computer made the best chess player, but that quickly went away. Now the computer is actually better than Garry Kasparov. Plus the computer. How should people think about a I as an augmentation tool versus a replacement tool? And is it just gonna be specific to the application? And how do you kind of think about those? >>Yeah, I would say >>that any application where you're making life and death decisions where you're making financial decisions that disadvantage people anything where you know you've got u A. V s and you're deciding whether or not to actually dropped the bomb like you need a human in the loop. If you're trying to change the words that you are using to get a different group of people to apply for jobs, you need a human in the loop because it turns out that for the example of beach, you type sheep into your phone and you might get just a field, a green field and a I doesn't know that, uh, you know, if it's always seen sheep in a field that when the sheep aren't there, that that isn't a sheep like it doesn't have that kind of recognition to it. So anything were we making decisions about parole or financial? Anything like that needs to have human in the loop because those types of decisions are changing fundamentally the way we live. >>Great. So shift gears. The team are Jeff Saunders. Okay, team, your mind may have been the liquid on my bell, so I'll be more active on the bell. Sorry about that. Everyone's even. We're starting a zero again, so I want to shift gears and talk about data sets. Um Bob, you're up on stage. Demo ing some some of your technology, the Miss Technology and really, you know, it's interesting combination of data sets A I and its current form needs a lot of data again. Kind of the classic Chihuahua on blue buried and photos. You got to run a lot of them through. How do you think about data sets? In terms of having the right data in a complete data set to drive an algorithm >>E. I think we all know data sets with one The tipping points for a I to become more real right along with cloud computing storage. But data is really one of the key points of making a I really write my example on stage was wine, right? Great wine starts a great grape street. Aye, aye. Starts a great data for us personally. L s t M is an example in our networking space where we have data for the last three months from our customers and rule using the last 30 days really trained these l s t m algorithms to really get that tsunami detection the point where we don't have false positives. >>How much of the training is done. Once you once you've gone through the data a couple times in a just versus when you first started, you're not really sure how it's gonna shake out in the algorithm. >>Yeah. So in our case right now, right, training happens every night. So every night, we're basically retraining those models, basically, to be able to predict if there's gonna be an anomaly or network, you know? And this is really an example. Where you looking all these other cat image thinks this is where these neural networks there really were one of the transformational things that really moved a I into the reality calling. And it's starting to impact all our different energy. Whether it's text imaging in the networking world is an example where even a I and deep learnings ruling starting to impact our networking customers. >>Sure, I want to go to you. What do you do if you don't have a big data set? You don't have a lot of pictures of chihuahuas and blackberries, and I want to apply some machine intelligence to the problem. >>I mean, so you need to have the right data set. You know, Big is a relative term on, and it depends on what you're using it for, right? So you can have a massive amount of data that represents solar flares, and then you're trying to detect some anomaly, right? If you train and I what normal is based upon a massive amount of data and you don't have enough examples of that anomaly you're trying to detect, then it's never going to say there's an anomaly there, so you actually need to over sample. You have to create a population of data that allows you to detect images you can't say, Um oh, >>I'm going to reflect in my data set the percentage of black women >>in Seattle, which is something below 6% and say it's fair. It's not right. You have to be able thio over sample things that you need, and in some ways you can get this through surveys. You can get it through, um, actually going to different sources. But you have to boot, strap it in some way, and then you have to refresh it, because if you leave that data set static like Bob mentioned like you, people are changing the way they do attacks and networks all the time, and so you may have been able to find the one yesterday. But today it's a completely different ball game >>project to you, which comes first, the chicken or the egg. You start with the data, and I say this is a ripe opportunity to apply some. Aye, aye. Or do you have some May I objectives that you want to achieve? And I got to go out and find the >>data. So I actually think what starts where it starts is the business problem you're trying to solve. And then from there, you need to have the right data. What's interesting about this is that you can actually have starting points. And so, for example, there's techniques around transfer, learning where you're able to take an an algorithm that's already been trained on a bunch of data and training a little bit further with with your data on DSO, we've seen that such that people that may have, for example, only 100 images of something, but they could use a model that's trained on millions of images and only use those 100 thio create something that's actually quite accurate. >>So that's a great segue. Wait, give me a ring on now. And it's a great Segway into talking about applying on one algorithm that was built around one data set and then applying it to a different data set. Is that appropriate? Is that correct? Is air you risking all kinds of interesting problems by taking that and applying it here, especially in light of when people are gonna go to outweigh the marketplace, is because I've got a date. A scientist. I couldn't go get one in the marketplace and apply to my data. How should people be careful not to make >>a bad decision based on that? So I think it really depends. And it depends on the type of machine learning that you're doing and what type of data you're talking about. So, for example, with images, they're they're they're well known techniques to be able to do this, but with other things, there aren't really and so it really depends. But then the other inter, the other really important thing is that no matter what at the end, you need to test and generate based on your based on your data sets and on based on sample data to see if it's accurate or not, and then that's gonna guide everything. Ultimately, >>Sharon has got to go to you. You brought up something in the preliminary rounds and about open A I and kind of this. We can't have this black box where stuff goes into the algorithm. That stuff comes out and we're not sure what the result was. Sounds really important. Is that Is that even plausible? Is it feasible? This is crazy statistics, Crazy math. You talked about the business objective that someone's trying to achieve. I go to the data scientist. Here's my data. You're telling this is the output. How kind of where's the line between the Lehman and the business person and the hard core data science to bring together the knowledge of Here's what's making the algorithm say this. >>Yeah, there's a lot of names for this, whether it's explainable. Aye, aye. Or interpret a belay. I are opening the black box. Things like that. Um, the algorithms that you use determine whether or not they're inspect herbal. Um, and the deeper your neural network gets, the harder it is to inspect, actually. Right. So, to your point, every time you take an aye aye and you use it in a different scenario than what it was built for. For example, um, there is a police precinct in New York that had a facial recognition software, and, uh, victim said, Oh, it looked like this actor. This person looked like Bill Cosby or something like that, and you were never supposed to take an image of an actor and put it in there to find people that look like them. But that's how people were using it. So the Russians point yes, like it. You can transfer learning to other a eyes, but it's actually the humans that are using it in ways that are unintended that we have to be more careful about, right? Um, even if you're a, I is explainable, and somebody tries to use it in a way that it was never intended to be used. The risk is much higher >>now. I think maybe I had, You know, if you look at Marvis kind of what we're building for the networking community Ah, good examples. When Marvis tries to do estimate your throughput right, your Internet throughput. That's what we usually call decision tree algorithm. And that's a very interpretive algorithm. and we predict low throughput. We know how we got to that answer, right? We know what features God, is there? No. But when we're doing something like a NAMI detection, that's a neural network. That black box it tells us yes, there's a problem. There's some anomaly, but that doesn't know what caused the anomaly. But that's a case where we actually used neural networks, actually find the anomie, and then we're using something else to find the root cause, eh? So it really depends on the use case and where the night you're going to use an interpreter of model or a neural network which is more of a black box model. T tell her you've got a cat or you've got a problem >>somewhere. So, Bob, that's really interested. So can you not unpacking? Neural network is just the nature of the way that the communication and the data flows and the inferences are made that you can't go in and unpack it, that you have to have the >>separate kind of process too. Get to the root cause. >>Yeah, assigned is always hard to say. Never. But inherently s neural networks are very complicated. Saito set of weights, right? It's basically usually a supervised training model, and we're feeding a bunch of data and trying to train it to detect a certain features, sir, an output. But that is where they're powerful, right? And that's why they basically doing such good, Because they are mimicking the brain, right? That neural network is a very complex thing. Can't like your brain, right? We really don't understand how your brain works right now when you have a problem, it's really trialling there. We try to figure out >>right going right. So I want to stay with you, bought for a minute. So what about when you change what you're optimizing? Four? So you just said you're optimizing for throughput of the network. You're looking for problems. Now, let's just say it's, uh, into the end of the quarter. Some other reason we're not. You're changing your changing what you're optimizing for, Can you? You have to write separate algorithm. Can you have dynamic movement inside that algorithm? How do you approach a problem? Because you're not always optimizing for the same things, depending on the market conditions. >>Yeah, I mean, I think a good example, you know, again, with Marvis is really with what we call reinforcement. Learning right in reinforcement. Learning is a model we use for, like, radio resource management. And there were really trying to optimize for the user experience in trying to balance the reward, the models trying to reward whether or not we have a good balance between the network and the user. Right, that reward could be changed. So that algorithm is basically reinforcement. You can finally change hell that Algren works by changing the reward you give the algorithm >>great. Um, Rajan back to you. A couple of huge things that have come into into play in the marketplace and get your take one is open source, you know, kind of. What's the impact of open source generally on the availability, desire and more applications and then to cloud and soon to be edge? You know, the current next stop. How do you guys incorporate that opportunity? How does it change what you can do? How does it open up the lens of >>a I Yeah, I think open source is really important because I think one thing that's interesting about a I is that it's a very nascent field and the more that there's open source, the more that people could build on top of each other and be able to utilize what what others others have done. And it's similar to how we've seen open source impact operating systems, the Internet, things like things like that with Cloud. I think one of the big things with cloud is now you have the processing power and the ability to access lots of data to be able to t create these thes networks. And so the capacity for data and the capacity for compute is much higher. Edge is gonna be a very important thing, especially going into next few years. You're seeing Maur things incorporated on the edge and one exciting development is around Federated learning where you can train on the edge and then combine some of those aspects into a cloud side model. And so that I think will actually make EJ even more powerful. >>But it's got to be so dynamic, right? Because the fundamental problem used to always be the move, the computer, the data or the date of the computer. Well, now you've got on these edge devices. You've got Tanya data right sensor data all kinds of machining data. You've got potentially nasty hostile conditions. You're not in a nice, pristine data center where the environmental conditions are in the connective ity issues. So when you think about that problem yet, there's still great information. There you got latent issues. Some I might have to be processed close to home. How do you incorporate that age old thing of the speed of light to still break the break up? The problem to give you a step up? Well, we see a lot >>of customers do is they do a lot of training on the cloud, but then inference on the on the edge. And so that way they're able to create the model that they want. But then they get fast response time by moving the model to the edge. The other thing is that, like you said, lots of data is coming into the edge. So one way to do it is to efficiently move that to the cloud. But the other way to do is filter. And to try to figure out what data you want to send to the clouds that you can create the next days. >>Shawna, back to you let's shift gears into ethics. This pesky, pesky issue that's not not a technological issue at all, but right. We see it often, especially in tech. Just cause you should just cause you can doesn't mean that you should. Um so and this is not a stem issue, right? There's a lot of different things that happened. So how should people be thinking about ethics? How should they incorporate ethics? Um, how should they make sure that they've got kind of a, you know, a standard kind of overlooking kind of what they're doing? The decisions are being made. >>Yeah, One of the more approachable ways that I have found to explain this is with behavioral science methodologies. So ethics is a massive field of study, and not everyone shares the same ethics. However, if you try and bring it closer to behavior change because every product that we're building is seeking to change of behavior. We need to ask questions like, What is the gap between the person's intention and the goal we have for them? Would they choose that goal for themselves or not? If they wouldn't, then you have an ethical problem, right? And this this can be true of the intention, goal gap or the intention action up. We can see when we regulated for cigarettes. What? We can't just make it look cool without telling them what the cigarettes are doing to them, right so we can apply the same principles moving forward. And they're pretty accessible without having to know. Oh, this philosopher and that philosopher in this ethicist said these things, it can be pretty human. The challenge with this is that most people building these algorithms are not. They're not trained in this way of thinking, and especially when you're working at a start up right, you don't have access to massive teams of people to guide you down this journey, so you need to build it in from the beginning, and you need to be open and based upon principles. Um, and it's going to touch every component. It should touch your data, your algorithm, the people that you're using to build the product. If you only have white men building the product, you have a problem you need to pull in other people. Otherwise, there are just blind spots that you are not going to think of in order to still that product for a wider audience, but it seems like >>they were on such a razor sharp edge. Right with Coca Cola wants you to buy Coca Cola and they show ads for Coca Cola, and they appeal to your let's all sing together on the hillside and be one right. But it feels like with a I that that is now you can cheat. Right now you can use behavioral biases that are hardwired into my brain is a biological creature against me. And so where is where is the fine line between just trying to get you to buy Coke? Which somewhat argues Probably Justus Bad is Jule cause you get diabetes and all these other issues, but that's acceptable. But cigarettes are not. And now we're seeing this stuff on Facebook with, you know, they're coming out. So >>we know that this is that and Coke isn't just selling Coke anymore. They're also selling vitamin water so they're they're play isn't to have a single product that you can purchase, but it is to have a suite of products that if you weren't that coke, you can buy it. But if you want that vitamin water you can have that >>shouldn't get vitamin water and a smile that only comes with the coat. Five. You want to jump in? >>I think we're going to see ethics really break into two different discussions, right? I mean, ethics is already, like human behavior that you're already doing right, doing bad behavior, like discriminatory hiring, training, that behavior. And today I is gonna be wrong. It's wrong in the human world is gonna be wrong in the eye world. I think the other component to this ethics discussion is really round privacy and data. It's like that mirror example, right? No. Who gave that mirror the right to basically tell me I'm old and actually do something with that data right now. Is that my data? Or is that the mirrors data that basically recognized me and basically did something with it? Right. You know, that's the Facebook. For example. When I get the email, tell me, look at that picture and someone's take me in the pictures Like, where was that? Where did that come from? Right? >>What? I'm curious about to fall upon that as social norms change. We talked about it a little bit for we turn the cameras on, right? It used to be okay. Toe have no black people drinking out of a fountain or coming in the side door of a restaurant. Not that long ago, right in the 60. So if someone had built an algorithm, then that would have incorporated probably that social norm. But social norms change. So how should we, you know, kind of try to stay ahead of that or at least go back reflectively after the fact and say kind of back to the black box, That's no longer acceptable. We need to tweak this. I >>would have said in that example, that was wrong. 50 years ago. >>Okay, it was wrong. But if you ask somebody in Alabama, you know, at the University of Alabama, Matt Department who have been born Red born, bred in that culture as well, they probably would have not necessarily agreed. But so generally, though, again, assuming things change, how should we make sure to go back and make sure that we're not again carrying four things that are no longer the right thing to do? >>Well, I think I mean, as I said, I think you know what? What we know is wrong, you know is gonna be wrong in the eye world. I think the more subtle thing is when we start relying on these Aye. Aye. To make decisions like no shit in my car, hit the pedestrian or save my life. You know, those are tough decisions to let a machine take off or your balls decision. Right when we start letting the machines Or is it okay for Marvis to give this D I ps preference over other people, right? You know, those type of decisions are kind of the ethical decision, you know, whether right or wrong, the human world, I think the same thing will apply in the eye world. I do think it will start to see more regulation. Just like we see regulation happen in our hiring. No, that regulation is going to be applied into our A I >>right solutions. We're gonna come back to regulation a minute. But, Roger, I want to follow up with you in your earlier session. You you made an interesting comment. You said, you know, 10% is clearly, you know, good. 10% is clearly bad, but it's a soft, squishy middle at 80% that aren't necessarily super clear, good or bad. So how should people, you know, kind of make judgments in this this big gray area in the middle? >>Yeah, and I think that is the toughest part. And so the approach that we've taken is to set us set out a set of AI ai principles on DDE. What we did is actually wrote down seven things that we will that we think I should do and four things that we should not do that we will not do. And we now have to actually look at everything that we're doing against those Aye aye principles. And so part of that is coming up with that governance process because ultimately it boils down to doing this over and over, seeing lots of cases and figuring out what what you should do and so that governments process is something we're doing. But I think it's something that every company is going to need to do. >>Sharon, I want to come back to you, so we'll shift gears to talk a little bit about about law. We've all seen Zuckerberg, unfortunately for him has been, you know, stuck in these congressional hearings over and over and over again. A little bit of a deer in a headlight. You made an interesting comment on your prior show that he's almost like he's asking for regulation. You know, he stumbled into some really big Harry nasty areas that were never necessarily intended when they launched Facebook out of his dorm room many, many moons ago. So what is the role of the law? Because the other thing that we've seen, unfortunately, a lot of those hearings is a lot of our elected officials are way, way, way behind there, still printing their e mails, right? So what is the role of the law? How should we think about it? What shall we What should we invite from fromthe law to help sort some of this stuff out? >>I think as an individual, right, I would like for each company not to make up their own set of principles. I would like to have a shared set of principles that were following the challenge. Right, is that with between governments, that's impossible. China is never gonna come up with same regulations that we will. They have a different privacy standards than we D'oh. Um, but we are seeing locally like the state of Washington has created a future of work task force. And they're coming into the private sector and asking companies like text you and like Google and Microsoft to actually advise them on what should we be regulating? We don't know. We're not the technologists, but they know how to regulate. And they know how to move policies through the government. What will find us if we don't advise regulators on what we should be regulating? They're going to regulate it in some way, just like they regulated the tobacco industry. Just like they regulated. Sort of, um, monopolies that tech is big enough. Now there is enough money in it now that it will be regularly. So we need to start advising them on what we should regulate because just like Mark, he said. While everyone else was doing it, my competitors were doing it. So if you >>don't want me to do it, make us all stop. What >>can I do? A negative bell and that would not for you, but for Mark's responsibly. That's crazy. So So bob old man at the mall. It's actually a little bit more codified right, There's GDP are which came through May of last year and now the newness to California Extra Gatorade, California Consumer Protection Act, which goes into effect January 1. And you know it's interesting is that the hardest part of the implementation of that I think I haven't implemented it is the right to be for gotten because, as we all know, computers, air, really good recording information and cloud. It's recorded everywhere. There's no there there. So when these types of regulations, how does that impact? Aye, aye, because if I've got an algorithm built on a data set in in person, you know, item number 472 decides they want to be forgotten How that too I deal with that. >>Well, I mean, I think with Facebook, I can see that as I think. I suspect Mark knows what's right and wrong. He's just kicking ball down tires like >>I want you guys. >>It's your problem, you know. Please tell me what to do. I see a ice kind of like any other new technology, you know, it could be abused and used in the wrong waste. I think legally we have a constitution that protects our rights. And I think we're going to see the lawyers treat a I just like any other constitutional things and people who are building products using a I just like me build medical products or other products and actually harmful people. You're gonna have to make sure that you're a I product does not harm people. You're a product does not include no promote discriminatory results. So I >>think we're going >>to see our constitutional thing is going applied A I just like we've seen other technologies work. >>And it's gonna create jobs because of that, right? Because >>it will be a whole new set of lawyers >>the holdings of lawyers and testers, even because otherwise of an individual company is saying. But we tested. It >>works. Trust us. Like, how are you gonna get the independent third party verification of that? So we're gonna start to see a whole terrorist proliferation of that type of fields that never had to exist before. >>Yeah, one of my favorite doctor room. A child. Grief from a center. If you don't follow her on Twitter Follower. She's fantastic and a great lady. So I want to stick with you for a minute, Bob, because the next topic is autonomous. And Rahman up on the keynote this morning, talked about missed and and really, this kind of shifting workload of fixing things into an autonomous set up where the system now is, is finding problems, diagnosing problems, fixing problems up to, I think, he said, even generating return authorizations for broken gear, which is amazing. But autonomy opens up all kinds of crazy, scary things. Robert Gates, we interviewed said, You know, the only guns that are that are autonomous in the entire U. S. Military are the ones on the border of North Korea. Every single other one has to run through a person when you think about autonomy and when you can actually grant this this a I the autonomy of the agency toe act. What are some of the things to think about in the word of the things to keep from just doing something bad, really, really fast and efficiently? >>Yeah. I mean, I think that what we discussed, right? I mean, I think Pakal purposes we're far, you know, there is a tipping point. I think eventually we will get to the CP 30 Terminator day where we actually build something is on par with the human. But for the purposes right now, we're really looking at tools that we're going to help businesses, doctors, self driving cars and those tools are gonna be used by our customers to basically allow them to do more productive things with their time. You know, whether it's doctor that's using a tool to actually use a I to predict help bank better predictions. They're still gonna be a human involved, you know, And what Romney talked about this morning and networking is really allowing our I T customers focus more on their business problems where they don't have to spend their time finding bad hard were bad software and making better experiences for the people. They're actually trying to serve >>right, trying to get your take on on autonomy because because it's a different level of trust that we're giving to the machine when we actually let it do things based on its own. But >>there's there's a lot that goes into this decision of whether or not to allow autonomy. There's an example I read. There's a book that just came out. Oh, what's the title? You look like a thing. And I love you. It was a book named by an A I, um if you want to learn a lot about a I, um and you don't know much about it, Get it? It's really funny. Um, so in there there is in China. Ah, factory where the Aye Aye. Is optimizing um, output of cockroaches now they just They want more cockroaches now. Why do they want that? They want to grind them up and put them in a lotion. It's one of their secret ingredients now. It depends on what parameters you allow that I to change, right? If you decide Thio let the way I flood the container, and then the cockroaches get out through the vents and then they get to the kitchen to get food, and then they reproduce the parameters in which you let them be autonomous. Over is the challenge. So when we're working with very narrow Ai ai, when use hell the Aye. Aye. You can change these three things and you can't just change anything. Then it's a lot easier to make that autonomous decision. Um and then the last part of it is that you want to know what is the results of a negative outcome, right? There was the result of a positive outcome. And are those results something that we can take actually? >>Right, Right. Roger, don't give you the last word on the time. Because kind of the next order of step is where that machines actually write their own algorithms, right? They start to write their own code, so they kind of take this next order of thought and agency, if you will. How do you guys think about that? You guys are way out ahead in the space, you have huge data set. You got great technology. Got tensorflow. When will the machines start writing their own A their own out rhythms? Well, and actually >>it's already starting there that, you know, for example, we have we have a product called Google Cloud. Ottawa. Mel Village basically takes in a data set, and then we find the best model to be able to match that data set. And so things like that that that are there already, but it's still very nascent. There's a lot more than that that can happen. And I think ultimately with with how it's used I think part of it is you have to start. Always look at the downside of automation. And what is what is the downside of a bad decision, whether it's the wrong algorithm that you create or a bad decision in that model? And so if the downside is really big, that's where you need to start to apply Human in the loop. And so, for example, in medicine. Hey, I could do amazing things to detect diseases, but you would want a doctor in the loop to be able to actually diagnose. And so you need tohave have that place in many situations to make sure that it's being applied well. >>But is that just today? Or is that tomorrow? Because, you know, with with exponential growth and and as fast as these things are growing, will there be a day where you don't necessarily need maybe need the doctor to communicate the news? Maybe there's some second order impacts in terms of how you deal with the family and, you know, kind of pros and cons of treatment options that are more emotional than necessarily mechanical, because it seems like eventually that the doctor has a role. But it isn't necessarily in accurately diagnosing a problem. >>I think >>I think for some things, absolutely over time the algorithms will get better and better, and you can rely on them and trust them more and more. But again, I think you have to look at the downside consequence that if there's a bad decision, what happens and how is that compared to what happens today? And so that's really where, where that is. So, for example, self driving cars, we will get to the point where cars are driving by themselves. There will be accidents, but the accident rate is gonna be much lower than what's there with humans today, and so that will get there. But it will take time. >>And there was a day when will be illegal for you to drive. You have manslaughter, right? >>I I believe absolutely there will be in and and I don't think it's that far off. Actually, >>wait for the day when I have my car take me up to Northern California with me. Sleepy. I've only lived that long. >>That's right. And work while you're while you're sleeping, right? Well, I want to thank everybody Aton for being on this panel. This has been super fun and these air really big issues. So I want to give you the final word will just give everyone kind of a final say and I just want to throw out their Mars law. People talk about Moore's law all the time. But tomorrow's law, which Gardner stolen made into the hype cycle, you know, is that we tend to overestimate in the short term, which is why you get the hype cycle and we turn. Tend to underestimate, in the long term the impacts of technology. So I just want it is you look forward in the future won't put a year number on it, you know, kind of. How do you see this rolling out? What do you excited about? What are you scared about? What should we be thinking about? We'll start with you, Bob. >>Yeah, you know, for me and, you know, the day of the terminus Heathrow. I don't know if it's 100 years or 1000 years. That day is coming. We will eventually build something that's in part of the human. I think the mission about the book, you know, you look like a thing and I love >>you. >>Type of thing that was written by someone who tried to train a I to basically pick up lines. Right? Cheesy pickup lines. Yeah, I'm not for sure. I'm gonna trust a I to help me in my pickup lines yet. You know I love you. Look at your thing. I love you. I don't know if they work. >>Yeah, but who would? Who would have guessed online dating is is what it is if you had asked, you know, 15 years ago. But I >>think yes, I think overall, yes, we will see the Terminator Cp through It was probably not in our lifetime, but it is in the future somewhere. A. I is definitely gonna be on par with the Internet cell phone, radio. It's gonna be a technology that's gonna be accelerating if you look where technology's been over last. Is this amazing to watch how fast things have changed in our lifetime alone, right? Yeah, we're just on this curve of technology accelerations. This in the >>exponential curves China. >>Yeah, I think the thing I'm most excited about for a I right now is the addition of creativity to a lot of our jobs. So ah, lot of we build an augmented writing product. And what we do is we look at the words that have happened in the world and their outcomes. And we tell you what words have impacted people in the past. Now, with that information, when you augment humans in that way, they get to be more creative. They get to use language that have never been used before. To communicate an idea. You can do this with any field you can do with composition of music. You can if you can have access as an individual, thio the data of a bunch of cultures the way that we evolved can change. So I'm most excited about that. I think I'm most concerned currently about the products that we're building Thio Give a I to people that don't understand how to use it or how to make sure they're making an ethical decision. So it is extremely easy right now to go on the Internet to build a model on a data set. And I'm not a specialist in data, right? And so I have no idea if I'm adding bias in or not, um and so it's It's an interesting time because we're in that middle area. Um, and >>it's getting loud, all right, Roger will throw with you before we have to cut out, or we're not gonna be able to hear anything. So I actually start every presentation out with a picture of the Mosaic browser, because what's interesting is I think that's where >>a eyes today compared to kind of weather when the Internet was around 1994 >>were just starting to see how a I can actually impact the average person. As a result, there's a lot of hype, but what I'm actually finding is that 70% of the company's I talked to the first question is, Why should I be using this? And what benefit does it give me? Why 70% ask you why? Yeah, and and what's interesting with that is that I think people are still trying to figure out what is this stuff good for? But to your point about the long >>run, and we underestimate the longer I think that every company out there and every product will be fundamentally transformed by eye over the course of the next decade, and it's actually gonna have a bigger impact on the Internet itself. And so that's really what we have to look forward to. >>All right again. Thank you everybody for participating. There was a ton of fun. Hope you had fun. And I look at the score sheet here. We've got Bob coming in and the bronze at 15 points. Rajan, it's 17 in our gold medal winner for the silver Bell. Is Sharna at 20 points. Again. Thank you. Uh, thank you so much and look forward to our next conversation. Thank Jeffrey Ake signing out from Caesar's Juniper. Next word unpacking. I Thanks for watching.

(informative tune) >> From San Francisco, it's The Cube. Covering D2 iQ. Brought to you by D2 iQ. (informative tune) >> Hey, welcome back everybody! Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in downtown San Francisco at D2 iQ Headquarters, a beautiful office space here, right downtown. And we're talking about customers' journey to cloud data. We talk about it all the time, you hear about cloud native, everyone's rushing in, Kubernetes is the hottest thing since sliced bread, but the at the end of the day, you actually have to do it and we're really excited to talk to the founder who's been on his own company journey as he's watching his customers' company journeys and really kind of get into it a little bit. So, excited to have Tobi Knaup, he's a co-founder and CTO of D2 iQ. Tobi, great to see you! >> Thanks for having me. >> So, before we jump into the company and where you are now, I want to go back a little bit. I mean, looking through your resume, and your LinkedIn, etc. You're doing it kind of the classic dream-way for a founder. Did the Y Combinator thing, you've been at this for six years, you've changed the company a little bit. So, I wonder if you can just share form a founder's perspective, I think you've gone through four, five rounds of funding, raised a lot of money, 200 plus million dollars. As you sit back now, if you even get a chance, and kind of reflect, what goes through your head? As you've gone through this thing, pretty cool. A lot of people would like this, they think they'd like to be sitting in your seat. (chuckles) What can you share? >> Yeah, it's definitely been, you know, an exciting journey. And it's one that changes all the time. You know, we learned so many things over the years. And when you start out, you create a company, right? A tech company, you have you idea for the product, you have the technology. You know how to do that, right? You know how to iterate that and build it out. But there's many things you don't know as a technical founder with an engineering background, like myself. And so, I always joke with the team internally, this is that, you know, I basically try to fire myself every six months. And what I mean by that, is your role really changes, right? In the very beginning I wrote code and then is tarted managing engineers, when, you know, once you built up the team, then managed engineering managers and then did product and, you know. Nowadays, I spend a lot of time with customers to talk about our vision, you know, where I see the industry going, where things are going, how we fit into the greater picture. So, it's, you know, I think that's a big part of it, it's evolving with the company and, you know, learning the skills and evolving yourself. >> Right. It's just funny cause you think about tech founders and there's some big ones, right? Some big companies out there, to pick on Zuckerberg's, just to pick on him. But you know, when you start and kind of what your vision and your dream is and what you're coding in that early passion, isn't necessarily where you end up. And as you said, your role in more of a leadership position now, more of a guidance and setting strategy in communicating with the market, communicating with customers has changed. Has that been enjoyable for you, do you, you know, kind of enjoy more the, I don't want to say the elder states when you're a young guy, but more kind of that leadership role? Or just, you know, getting into the weeds and writing some code? >> Yeah. Yeah, what always excites me, is helping customers or helping people solve problems, right? And we do that with technology, in our case, but really it's about solving the problems. And the problems are not always technical problems, right? You know, the software that is at the core of our products, that's been running in production for many years and, you know, in some sense, what we did before we founded the company, when I worked at Airbnb and my co-founders worked at, you know, Airbnb and Twitter, we're still helping companies do those same things today. And so, where we need to help the most sometimes, it's actually on education, right? So, solving those problems. How do you train up, you know, a thousand or 10 thousand internal developers at a large organization, on what are containers, what is container management, cluster management, how does cloud native work? That's often the biggest challenge for folks and, you know, how did they transform their processes internally, how did they become really a cloud native organization. And so, you know, what motivates me is helping people solve problems in, whatever, you know, shape or form. >> Right >> It's funny because it's analogous to what you guys do, in that you got an open-source core, but people, I think, are often underestimate the degree of difficulty around all the activities beyond just the core software. >> Mm-hmm. >> Whether, as you said, it's training, it's implementation it's integration, it's best practices, it's support, it's connecting all these things together and staying on top of it. So, I think, you know, you're in a great position because it's not the software. That's not the hard part, that's arguably, the easy part. So, as you've watched people, you know, deal with this crazy acceleration of change in our industry and this rapid move to cloud native, you know, spawned by the success of the public clouds, you know, how do you kind of stay grounded and not jump too fast at the next shiny object, but still stay current, but still, you know, kind of keep to your kneading in terms of your foundation of the company and delivering real value for the customers? >> Yeah. Yeah, I know, it's exactly right. A lot of times, the challenges with adopting open-sourcing enterprise are, for example, around the skills, right? How do you hire a team that can manage that deployment and manage it for many years? Cause once software's introduced in an enterprise, it typically stays for a couple of years, right? And this gets especially challenging when you're using very popular open-source project, right? Because you're competing for those skills with, literally, everybody, right? A lot of folks want to deploy these things. And then, what people forget sometimes too is, so, a lot of the leading open-source projects, in the cloud native space, came out of, you know, big software companies, right? Kubernetes came from Google, Kafka came from LinkedIn, Cassandra from Facebook. And when those companies deploy these systems internally, they have a lot of other supporting infrastructure around it, right? And a lot of that is centered around day-two operations. Right? How do you monitor these things, how do you do lock management, how do you do do change management, how do you upgrade these things, keep current? So, all of that supporting infrastructure is what an enterprise also needs to develop in order to adopt open-source software and that's a big part of what we do. >> Right. So, I'd love to get your perspective. So, you said, you were at Airbnb, your founders were at Twitter. You know, often people, I think enterprises, fall into the trap of, you know, we want to be like the hyper-scale guys, you know. We want to be like Google or we want to be like Twitter. But they're not. But I'm sure there's a lot of lessons that you learned in watching the hyper-growth of Airbnb and Twitter. What are some of those ones that you can bring and hep enterprises with? What are some of the things that they should be aware of as, not necessarily maybe their sales don't ramp like those other companies, but their operations in some of these new cloud native things do? >> Right, right. Yeah, so, it's actually, you know, when we started the company, the key or one of the drivers was that, you know, we looked at the problems that we solved at Airbnb and Twitter and we realized that those problems are not specific to those two companies or, you know, Silicon Valley tech companies. We realized that most enterprises in the future will have, will be facing those problems. And a core one is really about agility and innovation. Right? Marc Andreessen, one of our early investors, said, "Software is eating the world." he wrote that up many years ago. And so, really what that means is that most enterprises, most companies on the planet, will transform into a software company. With all of that entails, right? With he agility that software brings. And, you know, if they don't do that, their competitors will transform into a software company and disrupt them. So, they need to become software companies. And so, a lot of the existing processes that these existing companies have around IT, don't work in that kind of environment, right? You just can't have a situation where, you know, a developer wants to deploy a new application that, you know, is very, you know, brings a lot of differentiation for the business, but the first thing they need to do in order to deploy that is file a ticket with IT and then someone will get to it in three months, right? That is a lot of waste of time and that's when people surpass you. So, that was one of the key-things we saw at Airbnb and Twitter, right? They were also in that old-school IT approach, where it took many months to deploy something. And deploying some of the software we work with, got that time down to even minutes, right? So it's empowering developers, right? And giving them the tools to make them agile so they can be innovative and bring the business forward. >> Right. The other big issue that enterprises have that you probably didn't have in some of those, you know, kind of native startups, is the complexity and the legacy. >> That's right. >> Right? So you've got all this old stuff that may or may not make any sense to redeploy, you've got stuff (laughing) stuff running in data centers, stuff running on public clouds, everybody wants to get the hyper-cloud to have a single point of view. So, it's a very different challenge when you're in the enterprises. What are you seeing, how are you helping them kind of navigate through that? >> Yeah, yeah. So, one of the first thongs we did actually, so, you know, most of our products are sort of open-core products. They have a lot of open-source at the center, but then, you know, we add enterprise components around that. Typically the first thing that shows up is around security, right? Putting the right access controls in place, making sure the traffic is encrypted. So, that's one of the first things. And then often, the companies we work with, are in a regulated environment, right? Banks, healthcare companies. So, we help them meet those requirements as well and often times that means, you know, adding features around the open-source products to get them to that. >> Right. So, like you said, the world has changed even in the six or seven years you've been at this. The, you know, containers, depending who you talk to, were around, not quite so hot. Docker's hot, Kubernetes is hot. But one of the big changes that's coming now, looking forward, is IOT and EDGE. So, you know, you just mentioned security, from the security point of view, you know, now you're tax services increased dramatically, we've done some work with Forescout and their secret sauce and they just put a sniffer on your network and find the hundreds and hundreds of devices (laughs)-- >> Yeah. >> That you don't even know are on your network. So do you look forward to kind of the opportunity and the challenges of IOT supported by 5G? What's that do for your business, where do you see opportunities, how are you going to address that? >> Yeah, so, I think IOT is really one of those big mega-trends that's going to transform a lot of things and create all kinds of new business models. And, really, what IOT is for me at the core, it's all around data, right? You have all these devices producing data, whether those are, you know, sensors in a factory in a production line, or those have, you know, cars on the road that send telemetry data in real time. IOT has been, you know, a big opportunity for us. We work with multiple customers that are in the space. And, you know, one fundamental problem with it is that, with IOT, a lot of the data that organizations need to process, are now, all of a sudden generated at the EDGE of the network, right? This wasn't the case many years for enterprises, right? Most of the data was generated, you know, at HQ or in some internal system, not at the EDGE of the network. And what always happens is when, with large-volume data is, compute generally moves where the data is and not the other way around. So, for many of these deployments, it's not efficient to move all that data from those IT devices to a central-cloud location or data-center location. So, those companies need to find ways to process data at the EDGE. That's a big part of what we're helping them with, it's automating real-time data services and machine-learning services, at the EDGE, where the EDGE can be, you know, factories all around the world, it could be cruise ships, it could be other types of locations where working with customers. And so, essentially what we're doing is we're bringing the automation that people are used to from the public cloud to the EDGE. So, you know, with the click of a button or a single command you can install a database or a machine-learning system or a message queue at all those EDGE locations. And then, it's not just that stuff is being deployed at the EDGE, I think the, you know, the standard type of infrastructure-mix, for most enterprises, is a hybrid one. I think most organizations will run a mix of EDGE, their data centers and typically multiple public cloud providers. And so, they really need a platform where they can manage applications across all of those environments and well, that's big value that our products bring. >> Yeah. I was at a talk the other day with a senior exec, formerly from Intel, and they thought that it's going to level out at probably 50-50, you know, kind of cloud-based versus on-prem. And that's just going to be the way it is cause it's just some workloads you just can't move. So, exciting stuff, so, what as you... I can't believe we're coming to the end of 2019, which is amazing to me. As you look forward to 2020 and beyond, what are some of your top priorities? >> Yeah, so, one of my top priorities is really, around machine-learning. I think machine-learning is one of these things that, you know, it's really a general-purpose tool. It's like a hammer, you can solve a lot of problems with it. And, you know, besides doing infrastructure and large-scale infrastructure, machine-learning has, you know, always been sort of my second baby. Did a lot of work during grad-school and at Airbnb. And so, we're seeing more and more customers adopt machine-learning to do all kinds of interesting, you know, problems like predictive maintenance in a factory where, you know, every minute of downtime costs a lot of money. But, machine-learning is such a new space, that a lot of the best practices that we know from software engineering and from running software into production, those same things don't always exist in machine-learning. And so, what I am looking at is, you know, what can we take from what we learned running production software, what can we take and move over to machine-learning to help people run these models in production and you know, where can we deploy machine-learning in our products too, internally, to make them smarter and automate them even more. >> That's interesting because the machine-learning and AI, you know, there's kind of the tools and stuff, and then there's the application of the tools. And we're seeing a lot of activity around, you know, people using ML in a specific application to drive better performances. As you just said,-- >> Mm-hmm. >> You could do it internally. >> Do you see an open-source play in machine-learning, in AI? Do you see, you know, kind of open-source algorithms? Do you see, you know, a lot of kind of open-source ecosystem develop around some of this stuff? So, just like I don't have time to learn data science, I won't necessarily have to have my own algorithms. How do you see that,-- >> Yeah. >> You know, kind of open-source meets AI and ML, of all things? >> Yeah. It's a space I think about a lot and what's really great, I think is that we're seeing a lot of the open-source, you know, best-practice that we know from software, actually, move over to machine-learning. I think it's interesting, right? Deep-learning is all the rage right now, everybody wants to do deep-learning, deep-learning networks. The theory behind deep-networks is actually, you know, pretty old. It's from the '70s and 80's. But for a long time, we dint have that much, enough compute-power to really use deep-learning in a meaningful way. We do have that now, but it's still expensive. So, you know, to get cutting edge results on image recognition or other types of ML problems, you need to spend a lot of money on infrastructure. It's tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars to train a model. So, it's not accessible to everyone. But, the great news is that, much like in software engineering, we can use these open-source libraries and combine them together and build upon them. There is, you know, we have that same kind of composability in machine-learning, using techniques like transfer-learning. And so, you can actually already see some, you know, open-community hubs spinning up, where people publish models that you can just take, they're pre-trained. You can take them and you know, just adjust them to your particular use case. >> Right. >> So, I think a lot of that is translating over. >> And even though it's expensive today, it's not going to be expensive tomorrow, right? >> Mm-hhm. >> I mean, if you look through the world in a lens, with, you know, the price of compute-store networking asymptotically approaching zero in the not-to-distant future and think about how you attack problems that way, that's a very different approach. And sure enough, I mean, some might argue that Moore's Law's done, but kind of the relentless march of Moore's Law types of performance increase it's not done, it's not necessarily just doubling up of transistors anymore >> Right >> So, I think there's huge opportunity to apply these things a lot of different places. >> Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. >> Can be an exciting future. >> Absolutely! (laughs) >> Tobi, congrats on all your successes! A really fun success story, we continue to like watching the ride and thanks for spending the few minutes with us. >> Thank you very much! >> All right. He's Tobi, I'm Jeff, you're watching The Cube, we're at D2 iQ Headquarters downtown in San Francisco. Thanks for watching, we'll catch you next time! (electric chime)

>>Live from Orlando, Florida. It's the cube covering Microsoft ignite brought to you by Cohesity. >>Good afternoon everyone and welcome back to the cubes live coverage of Microsoft ignite. We are wrapping up three days of wall to wall coverage. Back to back interviews. I'm your host Rebecca Knight, alongside my cohost Stu Miniman. We have saved the best for last. We have BJ Jenkins, president and CEO of Barracuda networks. Thank you so much for coming on the cube. Feel a lot of pressure on internet. It's going to be great. Why don't you start by Barracuda. I think of that heartsong tell our viewers a little bit about, about your business, what you do. >>Yeah. Um, Barracuda is a company focused in the security industry, primarily on email security and network and application security. Uh, we have over 220,000 customers, uh, since we were founded a little over 15 years ago. And um, you know, we have a passion for making our customers secure and safe and being able to run their business. And we're a great partner in Microsoft, so, uh, they really help us drive our business. >>Yeah. So, so much to catch up, PJ, since it's been many years since you've been on the program, you were new in the role, but let's start with that Microsoft relationship here. We've been spending all week talking through all of the various environments. Talk about a little bit about your joint customers, the relationship and what's happening there. >>Yeah. I joined Barracuda seven years ago. Yesterday was my anniversary. And um, when I came into Barracuda, it was primarily at the time focused on a kind of small and midsize businesses. And most of those businesses ran Microsoft exchange or ran some form of Microsoft applications. And really that was the start of our partnership, realizing how important Microsoft was and it's grown. We were the first, uh, security company to put our firewalls in Azure. And that was over five years ago. And I think being first with a partner like Microsoft who is really at that point trying to catch up with Amazon and you know, Satya was, we're starting to drive the business in that direction. Uh, it gave us a unique vantage point in the partnership and it's grown from there. We were, uh, the Azure partner the year in 2016, uh, across their business. Um, we do joint development with them. We do joint go to market activities. And when you look around and you see 30,000 customers here, it's a, it's a good, good place to focus for a company like ourselves. >>Yeah. Well the, the, the changes in Microsoft business has had a ripple effect in the ecosystem, not only the launch of Azure, but I mean a big push office three 65 you talk about there's gotta be a difference between I'm rolling out exchange servers and well, it's all in the cloud. We know that customers still need to think sick as strong about security when they go to SAS Deere. If your customers figured that out yet. >>Yeah. I think, um, the trends that played out on prom play out in the cloud, um, how am I gonna secure my applications? How am I going to secure my data, my network? Um, and then the individuals that are using that cause at the end of the day, the individuals tend to be the weakest link in the security chain. And, um, you know, Mike, what I like is Microsoft has done a really good job improving their security posture, the base level that they provide to their customers every single day improves. And our job is to innovate on top of that and make them even safer. And, um, Microsoft's position in the industry too has been one where they want to be a ecosystem. They want to partner with third parties to help their customers move from on prem into Azure. And they know they're not gonna be able to do it on their own. >>So they've upped their game. We've got to up our game and we do it jointly, which is the nice thing. I, I joke with people. When I was at EMC and I used to go to Redmond, I'd go with battle armor on because there was not gonna be a fun meeting, uh, who's going to be, how Microsoft was going to hurt our business. And now I go to Redmond and you're embraced as a partner. They want to understand what customers and partners are thinking. They jointly plan with you. It's a completely different tone and tenor, which has been nice for us. >>So it is a scary world out there. And as we know that the threat environment is changing, hackers are becoming more sophisticated. I wonder if you could just set the scene for our viewers and just talk about security challenges in general and then we'll get into the specifics of the new solutions that you've announced here. >>Yeah, it's, threats come from everywhere and I think it's hard to boil it down and make it simple at times. But one of the stories I tell, uh, investors and customers about how fast the world is changing, uh, when I came on board, CEO's are obviously targets for hackers and the types of phishing mails I would get at that point. Um, and they would be very obvious. I've gone by BJ my entire life. On the website it says William Jenkins. And so the phishing emails would come in and say, you know, today fog, no, Hey, can you wire money here, William? Right. And so there was just base level intelligence. Nowadays they use LinkedIn, they use fee, they create social graphs. They study your communication forms, they look, they know how you're organized and they target the people. It will have, I always signed my emails past comma, BJ, the best fishing males have that in there. >>They've discovered that they've incorporated that they, so the, just the level of intelligence, the sophistication of what hackers do today, uh, has exponentially changed. And, you know, we're fortunate you can, we have more computing power. We have more artificial intelligence that we can apply to stop them. But the game just keeps getting escalated. And it's a, it's why the security industry has been strong. It's why there's so many companies out there. We've got to keep getting better. Um, but it's, it's a scary world. It's, it's, you know, you can never, never rest and never think you're ahead. You always gotta keep attacking it. >>So BJ, you had a number of announcements. Barracuda did, not nearly as many as Microsoft did, but give us the highlights if you would. >>Yeah. Um, so a number number of things announced here. Uh, first we're part of, uh, Misa, the Microsoft intelligence security association. So we're proud, proud to be a part of that. At launch. Um, we announced, uh, the cloud application platform security platform and the big announcement for us around that was our launch of as a service, uh, that's run on Azure. And, uh, we've always had a strong application approach. We've got integrated, um, detection, DDoSs uh, the O OS top 20 are all in Kurt corporate into our platform. What we've done is really leveraged Microsoft scale to run a very easy, simple to deploy a web application security platform, uh, that takes advantage of Microsoft scale and resiliency and brings that to our customers. Uh, we did a study, you know, only 10% of the websites in the world today are protected. So 90% of the web sites and web applications in the world today run on protected. >>We think this is a great way to go out and, um, help protect more of those. And then finally, um, you know, we announced Microsoft announced their V land solution and we have done joint development with them. We'll continue to innovate here, but we announced obviously our solution that we'll run, uh, with Microsoft's B when we're the only ones who can provide a customer really with multiple lengths run on Microsoft backbone, they can really run their data center. Now the corporate data center out of Azure, uh, we give them traffic prioritization, fail over resiliency that customers need when they're making those types of decisions. So there was more than that, but that was a lot of good stuff for us. We're excited about it. >>What does the recent announcement that Microsoft has won the Jetta contract, does that have any impact on Barracuda's business? Is that, >>well, I think anytime Microsoft wins business, it's a good thing because we're partnering with them. That contract is so big and, uh, has a lot of different elements and, and certainly security is a part of it. So we think there's aspects where we can play. I did hear, I think, um, Oracle was suing and I think AWS, so this may have a lot of legs before it becomes real. But it, I, you know, I think it continues to show that customers want to utilize, um, the scale breadth and depth of solutions that the cloud companies are bringing. And, you know, we view that as opportunity because security is an important element to making that work for those customers. >>So PJ, one to put aside the Microsoft stuff for a second here, since last we talk barracudas gone private and the security industry feels like it just growing so fast. You know, every week we're getting approached by new startups, heavy investment and the like, give us a little bit about your position has a CIO and CEO in this space. Uh, and you know, the love, a little bit of a note. We know it happened a few years back now, but going private when so many companies have, >>yeah, they're, you know, obviously there's a lot of funded companies in the security market. You know, we were in, uh, we had been public for, for four years. Um, a company that's been around 15 years where we were a profitable security company to, we were unique. We weren't, uh, the high flyer growth, but we were growing, you know, kind of, uh, low double digits with profitability, but there were investments that needed to be made in the business. Uh, we were running our transaction system on code, the founder wrote. Um, so there were investments we really needed to make to go from, you know, the 400, 500 million Mark to 1 billion mark. And so going private with a partner like Thoma Bravo, um, who really understands this industry has allowed us to reset the strategy and focus on, uh, the highest growth areas for us, which are email and network and application security. >>Um, they've helped us, we've invested over 20 million in internal systems, um, modern systems, Salesforce, NetSuite, uh, that we think give us the foundational elements to scale to $1 billion. And, um, you know, they combine that with operational expertise that they bring in to help us get more customers to the 220,000. Uh, one of the other interesting things for us too is, um, well we have 220,000 customers. We have 50 of the fortune 100. We have 250 of the fortune 1000 and as the movement, as, as customers have move to cloud, our solutions have become more relevant for customers of scale. And so they've given us the backing really to make that transition into that. So I liked not having to go on public conference calls every quarter. That's been a really nice thing. Um, but they've been a great partner for us. So we've, I think what you can think of us as we focused on areas that we think are the highest priority to our customers. >>Yeah, PJ, it also, we talked about there's so many startups in this space out there. The profile security keeps getting raised. Pat Gelsinger, VMware, you know, pounding the table saying that security needs to do over the, he just purchased black Boston based company that was public. You know, I talked to my friends that had been deep in the security industry and they scoff a little bit about, you know, we've been doing this for a long time. Barracuda is a company that has been around for quite a number of years. How's the industry doing? What do we need to do better? And how do you look at that landscape? >>Yeah, I, you know, I love pats energy and vigor, but there's no silver bullet that's gonna solve every problem out there. I do think, uh, where the industry is getting better is one on sharing information. You can see alliances, associations that have been formed. Um, you know, even with the cloud providers, we're actively sharing information and sharing of that information. We'll make more robust solutions first. Um, second you're seeing vendors go more towards platform where they're offering a larger, so the, the quality of solutions are getting better. And I do think there's consolidation happening where there, there are going to be certain segments of the market where you don't need 15 solutions. You really need, you know, one not from a particular player. So I think you'll see more, uh, consolidation occur around that. And you know, certainly that's been a trend we've been on in terms of integrating our solutions, making them easier to deploy and use for the customers. And then, you know, I think the last part of this is regulation is really a, it's still behind, but it's finally catching up and there's an interest in it. And I think in partnership with the industry, we can get our customers in a better position, a better security posture. So, you know, I, um, there will be consolidation over over time. Uh, you know, I've seen a map, I think there's 3000 security companies in all different segments that won't last forever. And, uh, it'll get easier for customers over time, is my belief. >>So with regulation, do you want to work in partnership with regulators? I mean, how do you, to help them understand the industry first of all and understand the dangers and the risks? I mean, how do you see the future of regulation for this industry? >>First of all, there's a large education process for legislators in general. You have to look no further than when Mark Zuckerberg got questioned by Congress. And the questions he were getting asked were not the best questions. Um, but you do have people who understand this industry and you can look at regulations like GDPR. You know, California's coming out data privacy law now and they're never perfect, but they're good foundational elements to start. And they're helping customers, um, get more aware of what they have to do to be secure and they're helping us explain to customers the things you can do to be in a better security posture. And so there's a continuum around this. We're in the early days, I, there's still a lot of education that has to go on, but when you see, >>start getting passed, it's a good step in the right direction. And by my estimation, BJ, we did save the best for last. Thank you so much for coming on the cube. That was terrific. Sorry it took so long. I'm Rebecca and I first two minutes and that wraps up three days of coverage at Microsoft ignite at the cube. Thank you so much for tuning in and we will see you next time.