>>Live from Washington, D C it's the cube covering Boomi world 19 how to bide booming. >>Welcome to the cube at Lisa Martin at Boomi world 19 in Washington DC and with John furrier and John and I are pleased to welcome to the cube Jason Maynard, the SVP of global field operations from NetSuite. Jason, welcome. Thanks for having me. It's great to be in D C and on the cube. It is. We were just talking about baseball, so we'll have to park that for a second and talk about some other sexy stuff besides baseball, ERP. So nets we, I saw you on stage this morning. You guys have been a partner of the first Alliance partner with Boomi for about 12 years. Thousands of joint customers. candy.com is one of them. Yep. They're going to be on later today. So I'm excited to have my afternoon sugar rush. Make sure he brings a big bag. You got it. So talk to us about you guys. We're also, I noticed Boomie's 2019 Alliance partner of the year. Lots of innovations going on. Give our audience a little bit of an overview of what NetSuite is doing with Boomi. >>Great. So Boomi is, has been one of our longest partners. I said I think we, we first inked the partnership in 2007 so it goes back 12, 13 years. Um, we, we, when we sell ERP, you always end up having to connect to a legacy on prem system, right? Or you may have to connect to new marketplaces to sell and so there's always need for integration. And so from day one, Boomi wanted to really kind of push the envelope work with cloud players. You know, when we started NetSuite 20 years ago, it was kinda crazy to put business applications on the internet and they'd been there from day one with us really on this journey. And so they've been a great partner to sort of help all those customers migrate and move their business to the cloud. >> You guys had success with Boomi on the customer front. >>Can you unpack that a little bit? Because the customer equation around data is interesting. You guys have turned this into an opportunity with nets. We talk about how that works. Yeah, I mean look EV every customer needs to get more insight out of their data. And you know, the ERP system is one of the major hubs in any organization, right? You've got a handful of system of records, right? And core financials is one of the main systems of record and inevitably every customer will have probably 1520 legacy data sources, right? That are going to be necessary for an ERP. And so for us, working with Boomi across not just the U S but across the globe with a lot of different international customers, it's a natural fit because we're not obviously going to be connecting with all of the systems that they're touching today. It brings a lot more value of data into NetSuite, which obviously then helps our customer out. >>So you guys were at, you said an early partner of Boomi back in 2007 when they were founded. We got to speak with Rick Nucci yesterday. So one of the interesting things that we talk about, and John even pointed out yesterday is you know, they took a big bet, Boomi dead way back then with building this architecture that's pretty unique to this day. This single instance, multi-tenant cloud application. Take us back to, because obviously NetSuite's been around longer, you a lot of choice, there are more iPods vendors out there. What is it about the way that Boomi is architected that is enabling your customers to achieve so much success but also really that you buy saw back in Oh seven I think this is something that's going to be a real big opportunity for NetSuite. >>You know, it's, it's, it's been an interesting ride because if you go back even to Oh seven and didn't even maybe eight or nine years ago, it was not a foregone conclusion with a lot of technology vendors that the world was going to shift to the cloud. Yeah, right. There were a lot of server huggers out there. There still are. They still want to hug this, they still want to hug the machine. Right. And so it's important, I think that we work with partners who have the same true North in terms of where we think that the technology is going. And I think that alignment, which is, you know, we're 100% in the cloud, always have been, always will be. Boomi shared that vision early on. So it was easier to make a bet then right, with a vendor who was going to have that commitment. >>And so that's been, to their credit, the vision that they've had for obviously years now. And I think that's what's helped them grow so quickly. And one of the things that you observed obviously is that the customers have choices, but the world software's changing, right? I mean cloud has changed the software development life cycle. I mean just in the past decade alone, the business of change, you still going to have the system of records. Okay. But with containers and Kubernetes and some of these cloud native opportunities, there's more flexibility in how people are deploying legacy and or core apps. Yeah. So they're not getting thrown away as everyone had predicted. So, I mean, there was some funded saying, well, everyone's going to move to the cloud and not really. Yeah, well I look at it, it's a good point because there's no packaged applications. They're not the entirety of the application market as you know. >>Right? Custom application development will never go away. You will always have, you know, things that are custom. People build apps on NetSuite, right? Things that are very close to ERP you'll build on the NetSuite platform. But there are things that are not, you know, native to our platform that need to connect to NetSuite. And there are customers that we share who are, have legacy COBOL applications for example. Right? And they may need to put a wrapper around that and get certain forms into NetSuite. So it really does run the gamut. And so it'll never be one thing, right? We just sort of, in the technology industry, we never go from, you know, 100 to zero in terms of what's deployed in the legacy. We sort of layer in compost technology. And I think that's what's happening. And so, you know, we'll replace certain systems. We go in and we pretty much always replace a an on prem system but there are a lot of on-prem technologies that a will never, never go away. >> I was digging around about Boomi and you guys net suite looking at some of the use cases. One thing that caught my eye was, you know, the growth startup for instance, might be born in the cloud. Yup. Never have an it department. Um, they have kind of a um, hacked together system of record at HR and ERP kind of things, but at some point they've got to grow and they hit a growth spurt and they just become rapid growth. Eventually goes public. You guys have had good success with Boomi in these kinds of startups. It's pretty normal. You've seen this before. Can you talk about that dynamic because at some point people got to start establishing formal, is this the systems applications? You're gonna need payroll, you're gonna need HR. I mean this is blocking and tackling. You guys have been successful there. >> Well, you know, we, we like to think about we can be the first system that you'll ever need and hopefully we'll be the last system that you'll ever need. Right? And what ends up happening is we've architected NetSuite to let you start small and then add more functionality as you grow. So you may start with just basic financials. You may add order management, move into full fledged ERP, maybe you're going to use our HR system down the road. And so we kind of, we kind of stairway a customer through their journey. Boomi does the same thing. Maybe you start with two connectors, right? You're just connecting two basic applications and, and that's sweet. And then you evolve into something more sophisticated, right? Where as you saw today and some of the technology demos where, you know, they're tapping into all sorts of different systems that are not even ERP or CRM, it's, you know, IOT and just all sorts of different insights that they can bring from the different technologies. >>Better together message is legit and this works. Yeah. You know, we look at, technology is all about coopertition these days, right? Is every vendor, right? In some way we overlap, you know, Boomie's owned by Dell, NetSuite's owned by Oracle, right? We're, we're all sort of inner inner locked in one way or another. But ultimately we have to work together because we share so many customers and so customers don't have the patience and nor should they for any of the sort of the, the vendor warfare. And I think that's the cool thing that's evolved with technology standards. It's easy for us to work together and we have to do it and we want to do it because it's what's the right thing for the customer. >>Let's talk about net suite as a launching pad for a lot of tech IPOs in the last few years. Give us your perspectives on what you guys started to recognize as a lot of these tech companies have kind of, that's why it just seems to me like net suite has been this sort of launchpad for that. Talk to us about what you've achieved there. >>Yeah, no, it's, we're, we're really humbled by the fact that more companies go, Poe tech companies go public on NetSuite than frankly you need any other ERP system. Um, you know, we help invent the industry. Early on, 20 years ago, Evan Goldberg and Larry had the famous four minute phone call to, you know, kind of crazily idea to put business apps on the web. Um, and so we've been, you know, at the forefront of this, but it's not just technology. It's, you know, we, we're a subscription business right from day one. Like we didn't sell a license with maintenance. We sold a subscription. So I think a lot of customers look at us and say, okay, they've been through the journey that we have. You know, we went public 12 years ago, you know, we past $1 billion in sales, you know, we got acquired. So the journey that we've been on, most of our customers are going to be on that journey in one form or another. >>We're going to, we've made acquisitions. Our customers make acquisitions, right? So we tried it and this was sort of the genius of what Evan and the team built is a system that can handle any business model. So whether you're selling time as a service, whether you're selling time or you're selling a subscription, you're selling a widget, maybe you're going to sell a widget as a service in the future. We can kind of handle any of the business models and most of the IPS are innovative companies that innovate not just with what they sell, but in how they sell it. >> Show about some stories from the field that you've seen out there. Anecdotally, share some turn situation. What are customers going through right now? Enterprises as they go through their journeys, they realize cloud's there. They got some stuff on premise is going to keep there. >>There's obviously certain reasons you're gonna run payroll in the cloud. You're going to have to have multitenancy is allows it news cases and clouds, not that straightforward. When you start thinking about having an enterprise and the hybrid mode of operations, what are some of the customers feeling? What's a, what's the mindset? What's their architecture look like? What are some of the examples? Can you share? Yeah. You know, I'd say three things come to mind. So first off, it's this business model innovation, right? The, the on prem systems tend to lock you into a model, right? And there's nothing, and when they were built, they were innovative 1520, 30 years ago. Most companies, business models have outgrown that legacy system. So they need to move off that to enable some new thing that they want to do. So that's a big driver. I think the other thing is, is globalization is here to stay. >>Um, you know, whether you're in the United States or you're in the UK or you're in Asia, right? We're one interconnected global economy. And so you may, you know, source from Asia, you may design in California, you may do nearshore assembly in Mexico and then you do omni-channel distribution. So you have to be global. And I would say the thing that's changed in the last 10 years is companies are being global from day one. It's not just something you add on five, seven, eight years down the road. You see companies designed for being global. And that I think those two things, business model, innovation global are our big catalyst right now. I mean we had, Oh one more thing real quick. So we have a Cuba alumni set on the cube data's the new software. Yeah. So if you've got a global business, data's critical as the data needs to be acted upon, you've got policy, you got regulations, regulatory issues, personal privacy stuff, company policy. >>As you have this global layer of data, making it available, addressable across multiple systems is a huge task. What's your view on that? Well it's, it's, it's an interesting question cause we think of it and kind of three pillars. It's we give you visibility, we give you control and then we give you the agility, right? So you've got to, first off, you've got to have visibility into the data, right? You need to know what's happening. Like how much did we sell in the Australian subsidiary yesterday, right? You need to have controls. If your CFO, you need to have global financial controls. You may have sold a lot in Australia. You've got to make sure you're spending too much. Right? How do you manage that? And then ultimately the agility is how do you make a decision on that? Right. And so that's those three things I think all play into it. >>And how does the consumerization effect impact it? Visibility, control, agility. Because as consumers we have this expectation whether you know in our personal lives we can get anything that we want within a couple of clicks. So when you're talking to a tech, whether it's a young tech company or even not a tech company like candy.com which is seems like a mixture. You and I were talking before of a number of different industries, all, all in one. How does, has NetSuite evolved to enable that consumer to go from their personal life to being able to interact with ERP next, struck the value from it in the ways that they want? Anywhere, anytime. >>Let's, let's be honest, for a second, ERP kinda got a dirty reputation. You know, in the nineties nobody loved their ERP implementations. Books had been written on this, right? ERP was like, it was like going like a bad trip to the dentist office in the 90s and that was sort of the catalyst for our company. But that's not enough just to be in the cloud. It's you have to make your user experience consumer grade, right? We always talk about enterprise grade. It's all the, reliability, scalability, all that kind of stuff. That's sort of a given, like you have to do that, but I think you have to, you have to adopt the consumer grade. So we spent a lot of time and we're doing a lot more and we're going to be rolling out some new stuff around user interface and just how easy is it to have a dashboard on your phone so that you can run your business from your smartphone versus actually having to be tethered to the desktop because we're all mobile, we're all traveling. You're a business owner, you're a CFO, you're CEO. You need to be connected. Maybe you're too connected. Maybe that's part, maybe we have screen-time problems. We do business. If we, if we can give our customers Screentime addiction to watch their business in real time, I guess that's a good thing. Right? And so we want to be able to make sure that they can have all that insight at their fingertips, whether they're in the office or at the beach. >>And speaking of insight, talk to us about brain yard. What that is, why you developed it and what it's enabling. >>Yeah. Thank you. That's like my, I was hoping you were gonna ask me. It's my secret, but not so secret anymore. Pet project. So one of the things being in the cloud, we have 18,000 customers, right? We have a single instance of NetSuite and so we've had the unique seat at the table to see all of these different companies grow in all these different industries. We evolved into selling by industry. So we have a retail version of software version of manufacturing, nonprofit, 1213 different industries. What we had in that is we had all these insights by industry. What is the right DSO number for a software company, right? What is the thing that a nonprofit needs to look at? And so we had trapped inside of NetSuite, all these brains sitting in all this information and PowerPoint and word docs and just everywhere. And so we decided to crack the hood open and literally open source that information and put it on the website. >>And so there's a subtle message here is that we have to do more than just sell bits. We, we're ultimately selling customer success or a business outcome, whatever you want to call it. So we need to transfer that knowledge to our customers so they can run their business better. So it's our investment back into the customer saying, Hey, you know what, if you're a software company and your DSO is at this level, you know, best in class is actually, you know, five days lower on a day sale, outstanding. How do you get your business to close that gap? And that's where we can really add value comms. People love comparables and best practices. You're essentially taking that heavy lifting work. It's giving it up there. It's benchmarking, it's analysis. You know, I was a former wall street analyst, so this one's near and dear to my heart, which is comparison, you know, how is this company doing versus that company? >>And so we have lots of data, um, that we've gleaned over the years. Lots of insights. So we kind of know what those best practices are. This is just the first phase of what we're doing. We're working with a lot of partners across the industry to give us some of their industry data so we kind of mash it up and come up with the insights. So it wasn't as an analyst, I'd love to get your thoughts real quick and take the, take the net suite hat off, put your industry participants hat on. Lot of wall street challenges around we worked, pulled their IPO, their GP gross profit was down. Other SAS businesses have huge margins. Their successful zooms public. There's a new formula developing in this cloud 2.0 world software world where the dynamic between classic software and software economics in the cloud are changing. What's your thoughts on this? >>If a startups out there and growing companies that are really looking to crack the code by at all costs and then monetize, get the margins that would, what's your, what's your analysis? No, it's, I, this is an area that I think a lot of companies raise too much, too much capital. Right? And they, we've been in this very unique environment over the last kind of eight or nine years where I'd argue a lot of startups who've been overfunded and when you have overfunding you chase growth at really no, you know, at without any limit on terms of the cost and what you see as you sort of distort the reality of what's happening in the business. And so I would argue that we've had, you know, zero in basically free money in terms of access to capital and we've lost track of some of the basics that you need to build a profitable, sustainable business. >>So, you know, when I was working on wall street, you couldn't go public, you know, if you were within say four quarters of cashflow break even, right? Those are some of the things that we used to have. But you've seen, you know, business fundamentals. Yeah, I need, and so what's happening right now? It's just a little bit of her. I think it's mean reversion. Honestly. I think you're seeing, you know, the public markets, you know, if you will veto some of the frothiness that's been in the private markets. And so this is, I think companies, some marketplaces do. That's what they, that's there. It's fantastic. It's a self correcting mechanism, right? I mean it's, you know, just cause you marked up your last round when you were private to a good Jillian dollars doesn't mean that the buy side on, you know, the pension fund is going to want to pay that and we work so you can't be high and run a business. You know, as we were saying, you know, trying, you know, God bless them, they're trying, but it's probably not the best practice I would not have. I would not recommend that. It's not a good look for wall street. How a good luck, you know, you can get on the Joe Rogan show there, knock yourself out. If you're a Ilan, you can do it. But you know, he's the, he's the only one we're going to let, don't know. >>Probably shouldn't be publicly. Air's too much unless you want something to laugh at and you know what, in this economy, I think we all need that. Jason, thank you for sharing with us what you're doing at NetSuite with Boomi, the insights that you guys are opening up with brain yard. So from brain yard, let's go back to the other yard that I promised. The baseball yard, your Dodger fan giants fan. Hats off. You guys are there. We are not. So I will say good luck to your team. We appreciate your time and what can I say, Bri? I'll give it to ya. All right, well it's been a pleasure talking to you and thank you for your time. Thanks for John furrier. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube from booby world 19 thanks for watching.

(intense orchestral music) >> Hello everybody welcome to theCUBE, special announcement here, exclusive coverage. Covering Oracle NetSuite SuiteWorld with some special news, we're here with Jason Maynard, Sr. Vice President of Marketing and Strategy at Oracle NetSuite, and Jim McGeever, EVP, Second to Vice President at Oracle NetSuite. Thanks For joining this special CUBE coverage. >> Thanks... - Thank you. >> Great to be here. So we've got some exclusive news around SuiteWorld going on, so let's get down and dirty, so you got four major announcements goin' on: Oracle NetSuite global, vertical IntelligenceSuite, and new SuiteCommerce, let's get into the hard news. What's the big story around the news? >> The big story is we're going global, and in a big way, it's one of the big advantages of the Oracle acquisition, we could never have afforded to go to as many countries as fast as we can, and now with Oracle, we'll really be able to go really fast. And as a result, we're building a lot of new international features. So 2018, we've really turned the developmentship to build out deep localizations for most of the major economies around the world. >> NetSuite's had a great track record, obviously everyone kind of has well documented history, obviously now with Oracle. What's the stride look like, what's, what're you guys, you guys are hitting a stride. What's is look like, what's different about it, if anything, what's the big highlight here at SuiteWorld? >> Well, we've really put the foot on the gas petal, so we're actually growing much faster now than we were when we were independent. And a lot of it is due to the international growth, I mean, for example in China, China we didn't have a market presence, it's now our fourth biggest market after only a year. And that's just starting, it's amazing how fast that it's grown. >> Talk about the international global piece, because global has become kind of like a, a whitewash term for some, but it's hard to do. Especially China you mentioned that one, so you have China, and then the rest of international. There are issues with Cloud, you've got regions, you've got data privacy, obviously GDPR's on the horizon, and it's got some teeth to it I would argue, relatively, you know, sharp in some areas, not in others, but it's a challenging dynamic, but the upside is it's a very lucrative opportunity. What's different about international now, then say just five-six years ago? >> Oh, there's two major differences. So one is the data privacy rules, GDPR, I mean that's just amazing how, what an impact that has on businesses, and also the data residency rules. So we're having to build our data centers around the globe, which we never would've had to do before. Now this is, thankfully we have a company that has data centers around the world, so it's becoming a lot cheaper and easier for us to do that. But that's really tough for a business to be able to do that themselves. >> So, you know, the theme I want to get out there is, is that, you know people want to do more with less, that's a classic consolidation message. There's some consolidation going on, when you look at Cloud, how people are trying to figure out Cloud on premise in the, in Cloud. But it's not a consolidation market, it's a massive growth market. Jason what does more mean? I mean people want more, they might have to do with less, but there's an upside, growth component. How are you guys talking with that one challenge? Cuz there's challenges, and there's opportunities at the same time. >> You know, it's an interesting time, I think a lot of folks say it's easier than ever to start a business. But the flip side is, is it's harder than ever to actually scale and grow. So when we're out talking to our customers, and were getting, you know, into what they're trying to solve. The biggest issue they have, is how do I overcome this issue of breaking these barriers of growth. So, it could be going global, It could be doing more with less, right? How do I automate my business so I can reinvest into things that are going to make me more successful? Like acquiring new customers. Those are the type of challenges that we see out there, it's more with less, get me to where I need to be, and frankly, stop doing the things that are sort of counterproductive and inefficient, and really drive, top lane. >> I think that's one nuance that's missed a lot in the analysis is that, it's not so much more with less, it's more efficiency with Cloud, you get more leverage than software. That's always been the case with software economics. How does that translate to the business strategy for you guys as you guys go global? Talk about some of news around the, the verticals, vertical integration, cuz that's going to be a big part of it, with either the developer community and/or your partner ecosystems. >> Sure, so what we're seeing is, if you look at our product, what people use. When we looked at our customer base, customers who are international, customers who use vertical features grow much faster than customers who are single domestic. So we looked across the board, and so what we're really focused on is how we can help those companies grow even faster. So how do you go international quicker? But every business is not a generic business, so they all have these vertical features, some have inventory, some have projects. So what they really need is features that can help them execute their business better. So we go deep by vertical, and in fact, our whole company is organized vertically, our sales teams, our development teams, and so when we go to market we go vertically, and so we're doing some really cool stuff. Especially in the product-based area, uh, that's the new supply tower control center, which really helps enable people to get product to their customers on time. >> Well I'd like to get both of you to weigh in on the hard question, right? Bringin' the heat now. >> Jim: Okay. >> Jason: Alright. >> Everyone wants to know, okay, what's it like with Oracle? Is that helping you, is it hurting you? Oracle has a reputation, they're moving to the Cloud very quickly, but again they're an incumbent, okay in the old, in the Cloud way. So, you know hards pers putting up some numbers, you can talk to folks at amazon like whoa, you know, they're Oracle. So there's a lot of uncertainty around who's going to be the modern player. So the question is: How are you guys, working in that environment? Obviously Oracles numbers are up, they're moving to the Cloud model, they're stats are flying, at a pace that, they're moving as fast as they can. But you guys have always had a different perspective. How is the NetSuite/Oracle relationship working, and how do you talk to customers about that? >> Sure. So we're, they've run us really independently, so we're a global business unit inside of Oracle. So all sales, development, marketing, product, all report up through me, Evan, and Jason, and we report into the CEO of Oracle. So we're really run purely independently. The only other thing I'll add, so really not that much has changed, other than we get to leverage a lot of their global scale, and as Mark Hurd says, and try to avoid the negatives of the scale. But they are all in on Cloud, this is, when you're in a meeting with the senior leadership at Oracle, it's not a fake thing, it's a not a, a marketing message they truly believe at their core, that in the Cloud, or that everything's moving to the Cloud. So there's, we get the same incentives to sell to an Oracle owned premise customer as we do to an SAP owned premise customer. >> Jason to add to that, I want to get your perspective. We were talking before we came on around, the scale piece, that Jim just mentioned. Talk about the profile of the kind of customers that you guys have here as SuiteWorld. Is the profile of your customer changing? Take a minute to explain who is the NetSuite customer, cuz the global thing is interesting, if you're growing, soon to be multi-national, or you're already multi-national company, this matters. So, and then the scale matters as well, so, what is the profile of the customer, how does that help, how does that weave into the Oracle scale? >> So we have over 40 thousand organizations globally running NetSuite. It's a pretty interesting mix. Obviously a lot of small/mid-sized companies, and we have a few, you know, a good decent percentage of our base are multi-billion dollar companies. We see an interesting, I think, dynamic, which is: the most successful NetSuite customers, are the ones that have gone global. They grow faster like Jim said, than the domestic only. I think the one other hallmark that I would point out to the NetSuite customer, the customer base. You see sort of an innovative group of entrepreneurs. So we see all sorts of great stories with the customers, you know, in Jim's keynote, Kara Goldin, the founder of Hint, right? She started off with a mission to stop folks from drinking soda water and drink actual water. Started with, you know, 10 years ago, and is now on an amazing trajectory. So we find-- >> John: You guys get a lot of growth companies. >> Yeah, we get a lot of the growers, we get a lot of the, really kind of the entrepreneurs who start small with us, and then scale with us, all the way to becoming a multi-billion dollar company. >> And this is where the international piece matters, right? >> Oh yeah. >> So let's talk about that and then we'll move onto the the next set of news. So if I'm a growing company, and we're expanding crazy, I care about localization, I care about data in regions, certainly Cloud, as you mentioned Oracle's really serious about what they are, they care about regions, this is an issue. So talk about the benefits of me, a growing company, how do I take advantage of localization, what do you guys offer, what's the playbook? (laughing) >> It's, we just make it easy. I mean, our whole focus is: if you're a business, it's hard enough to go international, and figure out your value proposition, and what makes you unique and what makes you differentiated, the last thing you need to be worried about are your IT systems, and spending your time on infrastructure, and selling it all up. So our kind of job is, we'll just take care of that, if you want to go to Germany, you will literally flip a switch inside the system, and you have a German enabled application. >> And what's the alternative, if I don't go with you guys? >> You have to go find someone in Germany, to go buy an application, install it, then you implement it, then you integrate it. I mean that's a multi-month, if not year process. >> John: And expensive. >> Very expensive-- >> You've got to find people, you got to know the nuances, the local issues. (laughing) >> Right. And so you've got to learn all that. We come fully localized, and we don't do it just in a way that is, it's a starting point. We have all the German tax forms built-in to the system, when you log onto NetSuite and once you flip this switch, you go to page, all the German tax forms are there, and we will automatically fill them out for you. >> Jason, I want to get your perspective, because local marketing is a big deal. You guys are in hundreds of countries, I know that from, from doing the research and watching you guys grow. But where do you have actual presence and where does presence matter, can you just highlight, the NetSuite, cuz I think this is going to where, people going to want to know, okay, there's hundreds of countries out there, but where are you, where's the core going to be? >> So it's an interesting point because it's, I think it's not just about product, right? It's not just about having a product that's localized for a specific country, it's about having everything else, right? It's having, making sure the support is in the local language, it's making sure that we have people who speak the language, making sure we have facilities, sales, service people, having a localized data center-- >> John: You guys are committed to that. >> We are 100% committed, this is, you know you asked the question earlier about what, what has been the benefit of Oracle? I don't think, as a standalone company, we'd have been able to pull off what we're pulling off and announcing this week. Without the backing of, and the Oracle resources, because the have the global reach, that we can easily tap into. So when we do local now, we're doing it with everything that a customer needs to be successful. >> Okay, so the next set it is, I want to dive into the hard news is the, new SuiteCommerce kind of vibe, sweet success for SuiteCommerce. It's a new e-commerce solution that gives customers the freedom to grow and evolve their digital commerce business. So this is basically commerce, you're talking about like, doing business. What is this news about, gives us the quick summary, and let's discuss. So our previous commerce product was actually very advanced, we actually started at the top first. We enabled you to touch every pixel on the page, customizing in any way, shape, or form you wanted. What we've done with SuiteCommerce is now we've taken it, and came out with an entirely pre-packaged, pre-built websites. So you can be up and running, with a very complex, fully featured website, in 30 days or less. And it's point and click choose, and this is not going to a basic colors and theme choices, we have complex features that enable you to run your business. So you can come to us, and we will have you running, with commerce enabled, integrated with your back office, with less, in 30 days. >> Jason, I can see two use-cases for this, one is, you know, I need turnkey guys, here's the keys to the kingdom, build it for me, I'll give you all my raw materials, we're up and running, you know, classic turnkey. Then there's the more of the dev ops Cloud model, which is, hey I need access to APIs, I have my own development team. Okay, how do you talk to both those guys, and there's also hybrids in the intersection of both those. So there's two modes of use-cases, how do you guys address the developer? It's interesting, I think the way we look at it is, we can be the first system you buy, and we can also be the last system you'd ever buy, right? And that's that freedom to grow and evolve. So, you may want to start out with us because you're an emerging retailer, and you're launching just in the US. But as you evolve to six more countries in a year and a half because you've got the hit product or you're selling, and you want to start to then expand your sophistication, then we can migrate you to some of the more advanced capabilities, but. What we're delivering today is that ability to have a packaged, out of the Cloud, easier to use, on ramp, to get the value of of NetSuite. >> And the horizontally scalable Cloud is obviously, with developers like, what's the developer story here? Can you guys share the developer perspective for your customer, if I have a team of developers? >> So we use the exact same technology, so SuiteCommerce and SuiteCommerce advanced is the exact same technology. One, we've been the developer, and pre-packaged it, and delivered it to the customer. But if you start with that, you can instantly switch over, and take over the development yourself. So either stay with us, we'll work with you, we'll develop it. Or you can just take that as a starting point and develop it going forward. >> John: Awesome. >> Literally, I think something is 75-80% of our customers, literally customize NetSuite in some shape or form, so you can imagine-- >> John: So you guys are totally open to let developers completely develop them. >> Yeah, there's a platform as a service offering, inside of NetSuite, which is something, that as customers evolve and grow they tend to consume and use more of those platforming features. >> So one of the things I'm reading here in the news, that I want to dive into, that I like. You know I like... (stammering) I like new things. So the latest edition you guys are doing have this concept of micro verticals, that span a variety of industry. So that means data potentially could fly around, certainly. In cyber security we were covering at RSA just recently, the role of data sharing is huge, you obviously got the other end on the policy side of, you know the data protection. So you can't have, you got to have a combination of data sharing to make machine learning, and make, you know, some of these new AI capabilities work. At the same time, you got to have policies around that. But these micro verticals will have to operate in a new way. So, what does a micro vertical mean, and how are you helping customers saying you know, I played a little bit of media, I play a little bit in financial, you know have a lot of different requirements that may cross verticals. How do you guys handle that? >> Well we started off with industries, so we used to think of wholesale distribution as a whole series of vertical features, you need a warehouse, you need all the management, there's all these things that you needed in order to make that work. And now we're going into verticals within that, such as food and beverage, or health and beauty. Then we get down food and beverage, now you have cold storage, so that's where we get to the micro vertical level, and the requirements there are actually quite different than you may get from a generic health and beauty vertical. So what we build are those micro vertical features, to enable this business. >> So you guys drill down into the verticals and segment them down, and, rather than some general purpose solution that's, you know, tryin' to hit, so there's some requirements changes. >> And all the regulatory and compliance requirements that go with those micro verticals, those are engineered as part of the process. >> And what's the impact of the customers, talk about the customer impact, what's the benefit for them? They get better product, they're happier, they get it quicker, and they get it cheaper. So it's kind of the more we do, and the less you do, the happier the customer is going to be. >> Alright philosophical question now, this is really what customers want, they want to have, they want to feel like it's a personal experience customized for their business. How do you make that work in this new Cloud world, what's the secret sauce that you guys bring to the table to make customers get the flexibility, the agility, obviously the scale of Oracle helps, on the foundational level. But as you guys roll out the NetSuites next generation customer environment, what's the secret? >> Well we've always had a platform, a deep platform, and so people have always customized our product. So we're using the exact same customization technologies to deliver these micro verticals that customers and developers have been able to do for years so it's just about leveraging what everyone can do to make it a better solution for those customers. >> Final question now, I mentioned machine learning and AI before, so the IntelligenceSuite is news here. Let's get into that. If you're not doing AI you're not relevant these days, everyone's throwing AI around like it's like at, oh we're AI-ing this so it's machine learning. But this is real, I mean software has to drive efficiencies. There's scale involved in software. Machine learning and artificial intelligence is a great path to operationalize, and automate, and create insights. So what is IntelligenceSuite about, can you share the news there? >> Sure, so we're not building a generic AI tool, Oracle's got a massive investment in that, and I'm sure at some point we'll leverage it. We're actually looking at very specific use-cases within our application, that customers can use right now. And so we're actually taking solutions such as: what is the quickest way to get your inventory to your customer, and using some machine learning to help actually route, and pick the right inventory items, and the right location to get the quickest delivery time to your customer. So we're taking very specific use-cases, and we're building that intelligence in, around that. We're not coming out with a generic AI tool that will, solve all potential questions, answer all potential questions even if you don't know what the questions are, that will come a little bit later. But right now, this is really-- So you guys are taking the low-hanging fruit, drilling down in known use-cases for your customers, and bringing that kind of automation to the table? I think, we basically take the attitude of, machines and humans together are generally a better answer than either by themselves. So we'll give you all the choices, and give you the recommendations, and let you pick the way you want to go. >> Jason how do you market that to a customer? Cuz this is really, I think, a big point. Humans and machines clearly are involved, you look at all the success of machine learning. This is now becoming known, you look at Facebook in front of the United States lawmakers, you know, they don't even know how Facebook works so, you know, you've got an enterprise, they're learning about data, they want real answers and they need to have it digged out for them. >> Jason: I think AI and machine learning could perhaps be, you know, the new planking, the most overused, over-hyped, you know, thing out there right now, and every vendor has to come up with a, like a sort of a perceived AI strategy, so I think it's overwhelming for a lot of customers. Because at the end of the day, these customers are trying to figure out how do I solve really specific problems. They don't have AI problems, they have tangible business problems. And so we took this approach to build this from scratch, inside of NetSuite, we didn't acquire, you know, some random startup, and try and plug and graph that onto NetSuite, we built it with the same though process, around how do we solve that problem, make it more efficient, so. Our conversations with our customers are not about technology, they're about, hey how do we get you, you know, better turns on your inventory, how do we solve a specific business problem, and that resonates, that makes it a lot easier, cuz that's what they know. >> Yeah, there's a shiny new toy, kind of thing, hey look it we got some new tools, and there's a place for that kind of, from a developers standpoint I can see it being a great sandbox. But you guys are taking a different approach, add known customer problems, that you can automate away and create insights, is that right? >> That's it. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> To wrap up, I want to get the thoughts of SuiteWorld, what's going on here, what's the main conversations, what're you guys promoting, what's the message, what's some of the conversations, and what's next for NetSuite? >> You know the biggest conversation is customers talking to each other about how they grow and scale their business. And so we try and create an environment at SuiteWorld where these customers can learn from each other, they can talk to each other. Obviously we share our insights and perspectives, but it's really about them, and how they figure out, and really learn from other experiences to solve what they're trying to accomplish. >> Jim top level message to customers, next 10 years, what's the NetSuite 20 mile stair look like for you guys? >> You know the great thing about NetSuite, we've been around almost 20 years, we've been on the same mission, the same product, and we look at the confusion that's out there in the marketplace. I think people feel very grateful that we're on the path and we know where we're going, and we're delivering them real value, real deliverables, and we're not forcing them to change their business. We change for them, not the other way round. >> From a tech perspective, tech enablement, and outcome perspective, what's the main themes of the show this year. >> It's mostly about or international rollout, our new commerce products, our vertical features, our micro vertical features, and our intelligence assistance. >> Cloud, IOT, AI, software all powerin' this, guys thanks so much for the insight. Exclusive news coverage here on Oracle NetSuite SuiteWorld, big announcements here, this is theCUBE, thanks for watching. (intense orchestral music)

(gentle music playing) >> For centuries, we've been captivated by the concept of machines doing the job of humans. And over the past decade or so, we've really focused on AI and the possibility of intelligent machines that can perform cognitive tasks. Now in the past few years, with the popularity of machine learning models ranging from recent ChatGPT to Bert, we're starting to see how AI is changing the way we interact with the world. How is AI transforming the way we do business? And what does the future hold for us there. At theCube, we've covered Oracle's AI and ML strategy for years, which has really been used to drive automation into Oracle's autonomous database. We've talked a lot about MySQL HeatWave in database machine learning, and AI pushed into Oracle's business apps. Oracle, it tends to lead in AI, but not competing as a direct AI player per se, but rather embedding AI and machine learning into its portfolio to enhance its existing products, and bring new services and offerings to the market. Now, last October at Cloud World in Las Vegas, Oracle partnered with Nvidia, which is the go-to AI silicon provider for vendors. And they announced an investment, a pretty significant investment to deploy tens of thousands more Nvidia GPUs to OCI, the Oracle Cloud Infrastructure and build out Oracle's infrastructure for enterprise scale AI. Now, Oracle CEO, Safra Catz said something to the effect of this alliance is going to help customers across industries from healthcare, manufacturing, telecoms, and financial services to overcome the multitude of challenges they face. Presumably she was talking about just driving more automation and more productivity. Now, to learn more about Oracle's plans for AI, we'd like to welcome in Elad Ziklik, who's the vice president of AI services at Oracle. Elad, great to see you. Welcome to the show. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. >> You're very welcome. So first let's talk about Oracle's path to AI. I mean, it's the hottest topic going for years you've been incorporating machine learning into your products and services, you know, could you tell us what you've been working on, how you got here? >> So great question. So as you mentioned, I think most of the original four-way into AI was on embedding AI and using AI to make our applications, and databases better. So inside mySQL HeatWave, inside our autonomous database in power, we've been driving AI, all of course are SaaS apps. So Fusion, our large enterprise business suite for HR applications and CRM and ELP, and whatnot has built in AI inside it. Most recently, NetSuite, our small medium business SaaS suite started using AI for things like automated invoice processing and whatnot. And most recently, over the last, I would say two years, we've started exposing and bringing these capabilities into the broader OCI Oracle Cloud infrastructure. So the developers, and ISVs and customers can start using our AI capabilities to make their apps better and their experiences and business workflow better, and not just consume these as embedded inside Oracle. And this recent partnership that you mentioned with Nvidia is another step in bringing the best AI infrastructure capabilities into this platform so you can actually build any type of machine learning workflow or AI model that you want on Oracle Cloud. >> So when I look at the market, I see companies out there like DataRobot or C3 AI, there's maybe a half dozen that sort of pop up on my radar anyway. And my premise has always been that most customers, they don't want to become AI experts, they want to buy applications and have AI embedded or they want AI to manage their infrastructure. So my question to you is, how does Oracle help its OCI customers support their business with AI? >> So it's a great question. So I think what most customers want is business AI. They want AI that works for the business. They want AI that works for the enterprise. I call it the last mile of AI. And they want this thing to work. The majority of them don't want to hire a large and expensive data science teams to go and build everything from scratch. They just want the business problem solved by applying AI to it. My best analogy is Lego. So if you think of Lego, Lego has these millions Lego blocks that you can use to build anything that you want. But the majority of people like me or like my kids, they want the Lego death style kit or the Lego Eiffel Tower thing. They want a thing that just works, and it's very easy to use. And still Lego blocks, you still need to build some things together, which just works for the scenario that you're looking for. So that's our focus. Our focus is making it easy for customers to apply AI where they need to, in the right business context. So whether it's embedding it inside the business applications, like adding forecasting capabilities to your supply chain management or financial planning software, whether it's adding chat bots into the line of business applications, integrating these things into your analytics dashboard, even all the way to, we have a new platform piece we call ML applications that allows you to take a machine learning model, and scale it for the thousands of tenants that you would be. 'Cause this is a big problem for most of the ML use cases. It's very easy to build something for a proof of concept or a pilot or a demo. But then if you need to take this and then deploy it across your thousands of customers or your thousands of regions or facilities, then it becomes messy. So this is where we spend our time making it easy to take these things into production in the context of your business application or your business use case that you're interested in right now. >> So you mentioned chat bots, and I want to talk about ChatGPT, but my question here is different, we'll talk about that in a minute. So when you think about these chat bots, the ones that are conversational, my experience anyway is they're just meh, they're not that great. But the ones that actually work pretty well, they have a conditioned response. Now they're limited, but they say, which of the following is your problem? And then if that's one of the following is your problem, you can maybe solve your problem. But this is clearly a trend and it helps the line of business. How does Oracle think about these use cases for your customers? >> Yeah, so I think the key here is exactly what you said. It's about task completion. The general purpose bots are interesting, but as you said, like are still limited. They're getting much better, I'm sure we'll talk about ChatGPT. But I think what most enterprises want is around task completion. I want to automate my expense report processing. So today inside Oracle we have a chat bot where I submit my expenses the bot ask a couple of question, I answer them, and then I'm done. Like I don't need to go to our fancy application, and manually submit an expense report. I do this via Slack. And the key is around managing the right expectations of what this thing is capable of doing. Like, I have a story from I think five, six years ago when technology was much inferior than it is today. Well, one of the telco providers I was working with wanted to roll a chat bot that does realtime translation. So it was for a support center for of the call centers. And what they wanted do is, Hey, we have English speaking employees, whatever, 24/7, if somebody's calling, and the native tongue is different like Hebrew in my case, or Chinese or whatnot, then we'll give them a chat bot that they will interact with and will translate this on the fly and everything would work. And when they rolled it out, the feedback from customers was horrendous. Customers said, the technology sucks. It's not good. I hate it, I hate your company, I hate your support. And what they've done is they've changed the narrative. Instead of, you go to a support center, and you assume you're going to talk to a human, and instead you get a crappy chat bot, they're like, Hey, if you want to talk to a Hebrew speaking person, there's a four hour wait, please leave your phone and we'll call you back. Or you can try a new amazing Hebrew speaking AI powered bot and it may help your use case. Do you want to try it out? And some people said, yeah, let's try it out. Plus one to try it out. And the feedback, even though it was the exact same technology was amazing. People were like, oh my God, this is so innovative, this is great. Even though it was the exact same experience that they hated a few weeks earlier on. So I think the key lesson that I picked from this experience is it's all about setting the right expectations, and working around the right use case. If you are replacing a human, the level is different than if you are just helping or augmenting something that otherwise would take a lot of time. And I think this is the focus that we are doing, picking up the tasks that people want to accomplish or that enterprise want to accomplish for the customers, for the employees. And using chat bots to make those specific ones better rather than, hey, this is going to replace all humans everywhere, and just be better than that. >> Yeah, I mean, to the point you mentioned expense reports. I'm in a Twitter thread and one guy says, my favorite part of business travel is filling out expense reports. It's an hour of excitement to figure out which receipts won't scan. We can all relate to that. It's just the worst. When you think about companies that are building custom AI driven apps, what can they do on OCI? What are the best options for them? Do they need to hire an army of machine intelligence experts and AI specialists? Help us understand your point of view there. >> So over the last, I would say the two or three years we've developed a full suite of machine learning and AI services for, I would say probably much every use case that you would expect right now from applying natural language processing to understanding customer support tickets or social media, or whatnot to computer vision platforms or computer vision services that can understand and detect objects, and count objects on shelves or detect cracks in the pipe or defecting parts, all the way to speech services. It can actually transcribe human speech. And most recently we've launched a new document AI service. That can actually look at unstructured documents like receipts or invoices or government IDs or even proprietary documents, loan application, student application forms, patient ingestion and whatnot and completely automate them using AI. So if you want to do one of the things that are, I would say common bread and butter for any industry, whether it's financial services or healthcare or manufacturing, we have a suite of services that any developer can go, and use easily customized with their own data. You don't need to be an expert in deep learning or large language models. You could just use our automobile capabilities, and build your own version of the models. Just go ahead and use them. And if you do have proprietary complex scenarios that you need customer from scratch, we actually have the most cost effective platform for that. So we have the OCI data science as well as built-in machine learning platform inside the databases inside the Oracle database, and mySQL HeatWave that allow data scientists, python welding people that actually like to build and tweak and control and improve, have everything that they need to go and build the machine learning models from scratch, deploy them, monitor and manage them at scale in production environment. And most of it is brand new. So we did not have these technologies four or five years ago and we've started building them and they're now at enterprise scale over the last couple of years. >> So what are some of the state-of-the-art tools, that AI specialists and data scientists need if they're going to go out and develop these new models? >> So I think it's on three layers. I think there's an infrastructure layer where the Nvidia's of the world come into play. For some of these things, you want massively efficient, massively scaled infrastructure place. So we are the most cost effective and performant large scale GPU training environment today. We're going to be first to onboard the new Nvidia H100s. These are the new super powerful GPU's for large language model training. So we have that covered for you in case you need this 'cause you want to build these ginormous things. You need a data science platform, a platform where you can open a Python notebook, and just use all these fancy open source frameworks and create the models that you want, and then click on a button and deploy it. And it infinitely scales wherever you need it. And in many cases you just need the, what I call the applied AI services. You need the Lego sets, the Lego death style, Lego Eiffel Tower. So we have a suite of these sets for typical scenarios, whether it's cognitive services of like, again, understanding images, or documents all the way to solving particular business problems. So an anomaly detection service, demand focusing service that will be the equivalent of these Lego sets. So if this is the business problem that you're looking to solve, we have services out there where we can bring your data, call an API, train a model, get the model and use it in your production environment. So wherever you want to play, all the way into embedding this thing, inside this applications, obviously, wherever you want to play, we have the tools for you to go and engage from infrastructure to SaaS at the top, and everything in the middle. >> So when you think about the data pipeline, and the data life cycle, and the specialized roles that came out of kind of the (indistinct) era if you will. I want to focus on two developers and data scientists. So the developers, they hate dealing with infrastructure and they got to deal with infrastructure. Now they're being asked to secure the infrastructure, they just want to write code. And a data scientist, they're spending all their time trying to figure out, okay, what's the data quality? And they're wrangling data and they don't spend enough time doing what they want to do. So there's been a lack of collaboration. Have you seen that change, are these approaches allowing collaboration between data scientists and developers on a single platform? Can you talk about that a little bit? >> Yeah, that is a great question. One of the biggest set of scars that I have on my back from for building these platforms in other companies is exactly that. Every persona had a set of tools, and these tools didn't talk to each other and the handoff was painful. And most of the machine learning things evaporate or die on the floor because of this problem. It's very rarely that they are unsuccessful because the algorithm wasn't good enough. In most cases it's somebody builds something, and then you can't take it to production, you can't integrate it into your business application. You can't take the data out, train, create an endpoint and integrate it back like it's too painful. So the way we are approaching this is focused on this problem exactly. We have a single set of tools that if you publish a model as a data scientist and developers, and even business analysts that are seeing a inside of business application could be able to consume it. We have a single model store, a single feature store, a single management experience across the various personas that need to play in this. And we spend a lot of time building, and borrowing a word that cellular folks used, and I really liked it, building inside highways to make it easier to bring these insights into where you need them inside applications, both inside our applications, inside our SaaS applications, but also inside custom third party and even first party applications. And this is where a lot of our focus goes to just because we have dealt with so much pain doing this inside our own SaaS that we now have built the tools, and we're making them available for others to make this process of building a machine learning outcome driven insight in your app easier. And it's not just the model development, and it's not just the deployment, it's the entire journey of taking the data, building the model, training it, deploying it, looking at the real data that comes from the app, and creating this feedback loop in a more efficient way. And that's our focus area. Exactly this problem. >> Well thank you for that. So, last week we had our super cloud two event, and I had Juan Loza on and he spent a lot of time talking about how open Oracle is in its philosophy, and I got a lot of feedback. They were like, Oracle open, I don't really think, but the truth is if you think about database Oracle database, it never met a hardware platform that it didn't like. So in that sense it's open. So, but my point is, a big part of of machine learning and AI is driven by open source tools, frameworks, what's your open source strategy? What do you support from an open source standpoint? >> So I'm a strong believer that you don't actually know, nobody knows where the next slip fog or the next industry shifting innovation in AI is going to come from. If you look six months ago, nobody foreseen Dali, the magical text to image generation and the exploding brought into just art and design type of experiences. If you look six weeks ago, I don't think anybody's seen ChatGPT, and what it can do for a whole bunch of industries. So to me, assuming that a customer or partner or developer would want to lock themselves into only the tools that a specific vendor can produce is ridiculous. 'Cause nobody knows, if anybody claims that they know where the innovation is going to come from in a year or two, let alone in five or 10, they're just wrong or lying. So our strategy for Oracle is to, I call this the Netflix of AI. So if you think about Netflix, they produced a bunch of high quality shows on their own. A few years ago it was House of Cards. Last month my wife and I binge watched Ginny and Georgie, but they also curated a lot of shows that they found around the world and bought them to their customers. So it started with things like Seinfeld or Friends and most recently it was Squid games and those are famous Israeli TV series called Founder that Netflix bought in, and they bought it as is and they gave it the Netflix value. So you have captioning and you have the ability to speed the movie and you have it inside your app, and you can download it and watch it offline and everything, but nobody Netflix was involved in the production of these first seasons. Now if these things hunt and they're great, then the third season or the fourth season will get the full Netflix production value, high value budget, high value location shooting or whatever. But you as a customer, you don't care whether the producer and director, and screenplay writing is a Netflix employee or is somebody else's employee. It is fulfilled by Netflix. I believe that we will become, or we are looking to become the Netflix of AI. We are building a bunch of AI in a bunch of places where we think it's important and we have some competitive advantage like healthcare with Acellular partnership or whatnot. But I want to bring the best AI software and hardware to OCI and do a fulfillment by Oracle on that. So you'll get the Oracle security and identity and single bill and everything you'd expect from a company like Oracle. But we don't have to be building the data science, and the models for everything. So this means both open source recently announced a partnership with Anaconda, the leading provider of Python distribution in the data science ecosystem where we are are doing a joint strategic partnership of bringing all the goodness into Oracle customers as well as in the process of doing the same with Nvidia, and all those software libraries, not just the Hubble, both for other stuff like Triton, but also for healthcare specific stuff as well as other ISVs, other AI leading ISVs that we are in the process of partnering with to get their stuff into OCI and into Oracle so that you can truly consume the best AI hardware, and the best AI software in the world on Oracle. 'Cause that is what I believe our customers would want the ability to choose from any open source engine, and honestly from any ISV type of solution that is AI powered and they want to use it in their experiences. >> So you mentioned ChatGPT, I want to talk about some of the innovations that are coming. As an AI expert, you see ChatGPT on the one hand, I'm sure you weren't surprised. On the other hand, maybe the reaction in the market, and the hype is somewhat surprising. You know, they say that we tend to under or over-hype things in the early stages and under hype them long term, you kind of use the internet as example. What's your take on that premise? >> So. I think that this type of technology is going to be an inflection point in how software is being developed. I truly believe this. I think this is an internet style moment, and the way software interfaces, software applications are being developed will dramatically change over the next year two or three because of this type of technologies. I think there will be industries that will be shifted. I think education is a good example. I saw this thing opened on my son's laptop. So I think education is going to be transformed. Design industry like images or whatever, it's already been transformed. But I think that for mass adoption, like beyond the hype, beyond the peak of inflected expectations, if I'm using Gartner terminology, I think certain things need to go and happen. One is this thing needs to become more reliable. So right now it is a complete black box that sometimes produce magic, and sometimes produce just nonsense. And it needs to have better explainability and better lineage to, how did you get to this answer? 'Cause I think enterprises are going to really care about the things that they surface with the customers or use internally. So I think that is one thing that's going to come out. And the other thing that's going to come out is I think it's going to come industry specific large language models or industry specific ChatGPTs. Something like how OpenAI did co-pilot for writing code. I think we will start seeing this type of apps solving for specific business problems, understanding contracts, understanding healthcare, writing doctor's notes on behalf of doctors so they don't have to spend time manually recording and analyzing conversations. And I think that would become the sweet spot of this thing. There will be companies, whether it's OpenAI or Microsoft or Google or hopefully Oracle that will use this type of technology to solve for specific very high value business needs. And I think this will change how interfaces happen. So going back to your expense report, the world of, I'm going to go into an app, and I'm going to click on seven buttons in order to get some job done like this world is gone. Like I'm going to say, hey, please do this and that. And I expect an answer to come out. I've seen a recent demo about, marketing in sales. So a customer sends an email that is interested in something and then a ChatGPT powered thing just produces the answer. I think this is how the world is going to evolve. Like yes, there's a ton of hype, yes, it looks like magic and right now it is magic, but it's not yet productive for most enterprise scenarios. But in the next 6, 12, 24 months, this will start getting more dependable, and it's going to change how these industries are being managed. Like I think it's an internet level revolution. That's my take. >> It's very interesting. And it's going to change the way in which we have. Instead of accessing the data center through APIs, we're going to access it through natural language processing and that opens up technology to a huge audience. Last question, is a two part question. And the first part is what you guys are working on from the futures, but the second part of the question is, we got data scientists and developers in our audience. They love the new shiny toy. So give us a little glimpse of what you're working on in the future, and what would you say to them to persuade them to check out Oracle's AI services? >> Yep. So I think there's two main things that we're doing, one is around healthcare. With a new recent acquisition, we are spending a significant effort around revolutionizing healthcare with AI. Of course many scenarios from patient care using computer vision and cameras through automating, and making better insurance claims to research and pharma. We are making the best models from leading organizations, and internal available for hospitals and researchers, and insurance providers everywhere. And we truly are looking to become the leader in AI for healthcare. So I think that's a huge focus area. And the second part is, again, going back to the enterprise AI angle. Like we want to, if you have a business problem that you want to apply here to solve, we want to be your platform. Like you could use others if you want to build everything complicated and whatnot. We have a platform for that as well. But like, if you want to apply AI to solve a business problem, we want to be your platform. We want to be the, again, the Netflix of AI kind of a thing where we are the place for the greatest AI innovations accessible to any developer, any business analyst, any user, any data scientist on Oracle Cloud. And we're making a significant effort on these two fronts as well as developing a lot of the missing pieces, and building blocks that we see are needed in this space to make truly like a great experience for developers and data scientists. And what would I recommend? Get started, try it out. We actually have a shameless sales plug here. We have a free deal for all of our AI services. So it typically cost you nothing. I would highly recommend to just go, and try these things out. Go play with it. If you are a python welding developer, and you want to try a little bit of auto mail, go down that path. If you're not even there and you're just like, hey, I have these customer feedback things and I want to try out, if I can understand them and apply AI and visualize, and do some cool stuff, we have services for that. My recommendation is, and I think ChatGPT got us 'cause I see people that have nothing to do with AI, and can't even spell AI going and trying it out. I think this is the time. Go play with these things, go play with these technologies and find what AI can do to you or for you. And I think Oracle is a great place to start playing with these things. >> Elad, thank you. Appreciate you sharing your vision of making Oracle the Netflix of AI. Love that and really appreciate your time. >> Awesome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. >> Okay. Thanks for watching this Cube conversation. This is Dave Vellante. We'll see you next time. (gentle music playing)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, CUBE friends and welcome back to Vegas. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. This is our third day of coverage of AWS re:Invent. There are somewhere between 50,000 and 60, 70,000 people here. The excitement is palpable. The energy in the room has been on fire since Monday night. John, we love talking, we love re:Invent. We love talking about AWS and it's incredible ecosystem of partners and we're going to be doing that next. >> Yeah, I mean 10 years of theCUBE, we've been here since 2013. Watching it grow as the cloud computing invention. And then the ecosystem has just been growing, growing, growing at the same time innovation. And that's this next segment with the company that we both have covered deeply. Boomi is going to be a great segment. Looking forward to it. >> We have, we have. And speaking of innovation and Boomi, we have a four-time cube guests back with us. Ed Macosky joined us, Chief Innovation Officer at Boomi. And it's great to see you in person. >> Yeah, great to be here. Thanks for having me. >> What's going on at Boomi? I mean, I know up and to the right, continues we'll go this way. What's going on? >> Yeah, we continue to grow. We're really focused with AWS on the cloud and app modernization. Most of our projects and many of our customers are in this modernization journey from an enterprise perspective, moving from on-premises, trying to implement multicloud, hybrid cloud, that sort of thing. But what we're really seeing is this modernization choke point that a lot of our customers are facing in that journey where they just can't get over the hump. And a lot of their, they come to us with failing projects where they're saying, "Hey, I've got maybe this anchor of a legacy data source or applications that I need to bring in temporarily or I need to keep filling that." So we help with integrating these workflows, integrating these applications and help that lift and shift and help our customers projects from failing and quickly bringing themselves to the cloud. >> You know, Ed, we've been talking with you guys for many many years with theCUBE and look at the transition, how the market's evolved. If you look at the innovation going on now, I won't say it's an innovator's dilemma because there's a lot of innovation happening. It's becoming an integrator's dilemma. And I was talking with some of your staff. Booth traffic's up, great leads coming in. You mentioned on the keynote in a slide. I mean, the world spun in the direction of Boomi with all your capabilities around integration, understanding how data works. All the themes here at re:Invent kind of like are in that conversation top track that we've been mentioning and Boomi, you guys have been building around. Explain why that's happening. Am I right? Am I getting that right, or can you share your thoughts? >> Yeah, absolutely. We're in a great spot. I mean, given the way the economy's going today, people are, again, trying to do more with less. But there is this modernization journey that I talked about and there's an explosion of SaaS applications, cloud technologies, data sources, et cetera. And not only is it about integrating data sources and automating workflows, but implementing things at scale, making sure you have high data quality, high data governance, security, et cetera. And Boomi sits right in the middle of providing solutions of all of that to make a business more efficient. Not only that, but you can implement things very very quickly 'cause we're a low-code platform. It's not just about this hardcore technology that's really hard to implement. You can do it really quickly with our platform. >> Speaking of transformation, one of the things John does every year ahead of re:Invent is he gets to sit down with the CEO of re:Invent and really does a great, if you haven't seen it, check it out on siliconangle.com. Really kind of a preview of what we're going to expect at the show. And one of the things Adam said to you was CIOs, CEOs are coming to me not wanting to talk about technology. They want to talk about transformation, business transformation. It's no more, not so much about digital transformation anymore, it's about transforming businesses. Are you hearing customers come to you with the same help us transform our business so we can be competitive, so we can meet customer demand? >> Oh, absolutely. It's no longer about tools and technology and providing people with paint to paint on a canvas. We're offering solutions on the AWS marketplace. We have five solutions that we launched this year to get people up and running very quickly based on business problems from disbursement to lead to cash with Salesforce and NetSuite to business-to-business integrations and EDI dashboarding and that sort of thing. We also have our own marketplace that provide these solutions and give our customers the ability to visualize what they can do with our platform to actually solve business problems. Again, not just about tooling and technology and how to connect things. >> How's the marketplace relationship going for you? Are you guys seeing success there? >> Yeah, we're seeing a lot of success. I mean, in fact, we're going to be doubling down in the next year. We're going to be, we haven't announced it yet, but we're going to be announcing some new solutions. >> John: I guess we're announcing it now. >> No, I'm not going to get to specifics. But we're going to be putting more and more solutions on the marketplace and we're going to be offering more ways to consume and purchase our platform on the marketplace in the next couple of months. >> Ed, talk about what's new with Boomi real quick. I know you guys have new connectors Early Access. What's been announced? What have you guys announced? What's coming? What's the new things folks should pay attention from a product standpoint? >> Yeah, so you mentioned the connectors. We have 32 new connectors. And by the way in our ecosystem, our customers have connected 199,970 unique things. Amazon SQS is one of those in that number. So that's the kind of scale. >> What's the number again? >> 199,970. At least that's the last I checked earlier. >> That's a good recall right there. Exact number. >> It's an exciting number 'cause we're scaling very, very rapidly. But the other things that are exciting are we announced our event streaming service that we want to bring to our cloud. We've relied on partners in the past to do that for us, but it's been a very critical need that our customers have asked for. So we're integrating that into our platform. We're also going to be focusing more and more on our data management capabilities because I mentioned it a little earlier, connecting things, if bad data's going in and bad data's going out, bad data's going everywhere. So we have the tools and capability to govern data, manage data, high quality solutions. So we're going to invest more and more in that 'cause that's what our customers are asking us for. >> Data governance is a challenge for any business in any industry. Too much access is a huge risk, not enough access to the right people means you can't really extract the insights from data to be able to make data-driven decisions. How do you help customers really on that fine line of data governance? >> Very specifically, we have as part of our iPaaS platform, we have a data catalog and data prep capability within the platform itself that gives citizens in the organization the ability to catalog data in a secure way based on what they have capabilities to. But not only that, the integrator can use data catalog to actually catalog the data and understand what needs to be integrated and how they can make their business more efficient by automating the movement of data and sharing the data across the organization. >> On the innovation side, I want to get back to that again because I think this integration innovation angle is something that we talked about with Adams Selipsky in our stories hitting SiliconANGLE right now are all about the partner ecosystems. We've been highlighting some of the bigger players emerging. You guys are out there. You got Databricks, Snowflake, MongoDB where they're partnering with Amazon, but they're not just an ISV, they're platforms. You guys have your own ISVs. You have your own customers. You're doing low-code before no-code is popular. So where are you guys at on that wave? You got a good customer base, share some names. What's going on with the customers? Are they becoming more developer oriented? 'Cause let's face it, your customers that working on Boomi, they're developers. >> Yes. >> And so they got tools. You're enablers, so you're a platform on Amazon. >> We are a platform on Amazon. >> We call that supercloud, but that's where this new shift is happening. What's your reaction to that? >> Yes, so I guess we are a supercloud on Amazon and our customers and our partners are developers of our platforms themselves. So most of our partners are also customers of ours and they will be implementing their own integrations in the backend of their platforms into their backend systems to do things like billing and monitoring of their own usage of their platforms. But with our customers, they're also Amazon customers who are trying to connect in a multicloud way or many times just within the Amazon ecosystem. Or even customers like Kenco and Tim Heger who did a presentation from HealthBridge. They're also doing B2B connectivity to bring information from their partners into their ecosystem within their platform. So we handle all of the above. So now we are an independent company and it's nice to be a central part of all of these different ecosystems. And where I find myself in my role a lot of times is literally connecting different platforms and applications and SI partners to solve these problems 'cause nobody can really see it themselves. I had a conversation earlier today where someone would say, "Hey, you're going to talk with that SI partner later today. They're a big SI partner of ours. Why don't they develop solutions that we can go to market together to solve problems for our customers?" >> Lisa, this is something that we've been talking about a lot where it's an and conversation. My big takeaway from Adam's one-on-one and re:Invent so far is they're not mutually exclusive. There's an and. You can be an ISV and this platforms in the ecosystem because you're enabling software developers, ISV as they call it. I think that term is old school, but still independent software vendors. That's not a platform. They can coexist and they are, but they're becoming on your platform. So you're one of the most advanced Amazon partners. So as cloud grows and we mature and what, 13 years old Amazon is now, so okay, you're becoming bigger as a platform. That's the next wave. What happens in that next five years from there? What happens next? Because if your platform continues to grow, what happens next? >> So for us, where we're going is connecting platform providers, cloud providers are getting bigger. A lot of these cloud providers are embracing partnerships with other vendors and things and we're helping connect those. So when I talk about business-to-business and sharing data between those, there are still some folks that have legacy applications that need to connect and bring things in and they're just going to ride them until they go away. That is a requirement, but at some point that's all going to fall by the wayside. But where the industry is really going for us is it is about automation and quickly automating things and again, doing more with less. I think Tim Heger had a quote where he said, "I don't need to use Michelangelo to come paint my living room." And that's the way he thinks about low-code. It's not about, you don't want to just sit there and code things and make an art out of coding. You want to get things done quickly and you want to keep automating your business to keep pushing things forward. So a lot of the things we're looking at is not just about connecting and automating data transformation and that's all valuable, but how do I get someone more productive? How do I automate the business in an intelligent way more and more to push them forward. >> Out of the box solutions versus platforms. You can do both. You can build a platform. >> Yes. >> Or you can just buy out of the box. >> Well, that's what's great about us too is because we don't just provide solutions. We provide solutions many times as a starting point or the way I look at it, it's art of the possible a lot of what we give 'cause then our customers can take our low-code tooling and say, wow, I like this solution, but I can really take it to the next step, almost in like an open source model and just quickly iterate and drive innovation that way. And I just love seeing our, a lot of it for me is just our ecosystem and our partners driving the innovation for us. >> And driving that speed for customers. When I had the chance to interview Tim Heger myself last month and he was talking about Boomi integration and Flow are enabling him to do integration 10x faster than before and HealthBridge built their business on Boomi. They didn't replace the legacy solution, but he had experience with some of your big competitors and chose Boomi and said, "It is 10x faster." So he's able to deliver to those and it's a great business helping people pay for health issues if they don't have the funds to do that. So much faster than they could have if had they chosen a different technology. >> Yeah, and also what I like about the HealthBridge story is you said they started with Boomi's technology. So I like to think we scale up and scale down. So many times when I talk to prospects or new customers, they think that our technology is too advanced or too expensive or too big for them to go after and they don't think they can solve these problems like we do with enterprises. We can start with you as a startup going with SaaS applications, trying to be innovative in your organization to automate things and scale. As you scale the company will be right there along with you to scale into very very advanced solutions all in a low-code way. >> And also helping folks to scale up and down during what we're facing these macroeconomic headwinds. That's really important for businesses to be able to do for cost optimization. But at the end of the day, that company has to be a data company. They have to be able to make sure that the data matches. It's there. They know what they have. They can actually facilitate communications, conversations and deliver the end user customer is demanding whether it's a retailer, a healthcare organization, a bank, you name it. >> Exactly. And another thing with today's economy, a lot of people forget with integration or automation tooling, once you get things implemented, in many traditional forms you got to manage that long term. You have to have a team to do that. Our technology runs autonomously. I hear from our customers over and over again. I just said it, sometimes I'll walk away for a month and come back and wow, Boomi's still running. I didn't realize it. 'Cause we have technology that continues to patch itself, heal itself, continue running autonomously. That also saves in a time like now where you don't have to worry about sending teams out to patch and upgrade things on a continuous basis. We take care of that for our customers. >> I think you guys can see a lot of growth with this recession and looming. You guys fit well in the marketplace. As people figure out how to right size, you guys fit right nicely into that equation. I got to ask you, what's ahead for 2023 for Boomi? What can we expect to see? >> Yeah, what's ahead? I briefly mentioned it earlier, but the new service we're really excited about that 'cause it's going to help our customers to scale even further and bring more workloads into AWS and more workloads that we can solve challenges for our customers. We've also got additional solutions. We're looking at launching on AWS marketplace. We're going to continue working with SIs and GSIs and our ISV ecosystem to identify more and more enterprise great solutions and verticals and industry-based solutions that we can take out of the box and give to our customers. So we're just going to keep growing. >> What are some of those key verticals? Just curious. >> So we're focusing on manufacturing, the financial services industry. I don't know, maybe it's vertical, but higher ed's another big one for us. So we have over a hundred universities that use our technology in order to automate, grant submissions, student management of different aspects, that sort of thing. Boise State is one of them that's modernized on AWS with Boomi technology. So we're going to continue rolling in that front as well. >> Okay. Is it time for the challenge? >> It's time for the challenge. Are you ready for the challenge, Ed? We're springing this on you, but we know you so we know you can nail this. >> Oh no. >> If you were going to create your own sizzle reel and we're creating sizzle reel that's going to go on Instagram reels and you're going to be a star of it, what would that sizzle reel say? Like if you had a billboard or a bumper sticker, what's that about Boomi boom powerful story? >> Well, we joked about this earlier, but I'd have to say, Go Boomi it. This isn't real. >> Go Boomi it, why? >> Go Boomi it because it's such a succinct way of saying our customer, that terminology came to us from our customers because Boomi becomes a verb within an organization. They'll typically start with us and they'll solve an integration challenge or something like that. And then we become viral in a good way with an organization where our customers, Lisa, you mentioned it earlier before the show, you love talking to our customers 'cause they're so excited and happy and love our technology. They just keep finding more ways to solve challenges and push their business forward. And when a problem comes up, an employee will typically say to another, go Boomi it. >> When you're a verb, that's a good thing. >> Ed: Yes it is. >> Splunk, go Splunk it. That was a verb for log files. Kleenex, tissue. >> Go Boomi it. Ed, thank you so much for coming back on your fourth time. So next time we see you will be fifth time. We'll get you that five-timers club jacket like they have on SNL next time. >> Perfect, can't wait. >> We appreciate your insight, your time. It's great to hear what's going on at Boomi. We appreciate it. >> Ed: Cool. Thank you. >> For Ed Macosky and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>> From every ISV to solve the problems. You want there to be tools in place that you can use, either open source tools or whatever it is that help you build it. And slowly over time, that building will become easier and easier. So my question to you was, where do you see you playing? Do you see yourself playing to ISVs as a set of tools, which will make their life a lot easier and provide that work? >> Absolutely. >> If they don't have, so they don't have to do it. Or you're providing this for the end users? Or both? >> So it's a progression. If you go to the ISVs first, you're doomed to starved before you have time for that other option. >> Yeah. >> Right? So it's a question of phase, the phasing of it. And also if you go directly to end users, you can demonstrate the power of it and get the attention of the ISVs. I believe that the ISVs, especially those with the biggest footprints and the most, you know, coveted estates, they have already made massive investments at trying to solve decentralization of their software stack. And I believe that they have used it as a hook to try to move to a software as a service model and rope people into leasing their infrastructure. So if you look at the clouds that have been propped up by Autodesk or by Adobe, or you name the company, they are building proprietary makeshift solutions for decentralizing or hybrid clouding. Or maybe they're not even doing that at all and all they're is saying hey, if you want to get location agnosticness, then what you should just, is just move into our cloud. >> Right. >> And then they try to solve on the background how to decentralize it between different regions so they can have decent offerings in each region. But those who are more advanced have already made larger investments and will be more averse to, you know, throwing that stuff away, all of their makeshift machinery away, and using a platform that gives them high performance parallel, low level file system access, while at the same time having metadata-driven, you know, policy-based, intent-based orchestration to manage the diffusion of data across a decentralized infrastructure. They are not going to be as open because they've made such an investment and they're going to look at how do they monetize it. So what we have found with like the movie studios who are using us already, many of the app they're using, many of those software offerings, the ISVs have their own cloud that offers that software for the cloud. But what we got when I asked about this, 'cause I was dealt specifically into this question because I'm very interested to know how we're going to make that leap from end user upstream into the ISVs where I believe we need to, and they said, look, we cannot use these software ISV-specific SAS clouds for two reasons. Number one is we lose control of the data. We're giving it to them. That's security and other issues. And here you're talking about we're doing work for Disney, we're doing work for Netflix, and they're not going to let us put our data on those software clouds, on those SAS clouds. Secondly, in any reasonable pipeline, the data is shared by many different applications. We need to be agnostic as to the application. 'Cause the inputs to one application, you know, the output for one application provides the input to the next, and it's not necessarily from the same vendor. So they need to have a data platform that lets them, you know, go from one software stack, and you know, to run it on another. Because they might do the rendering with this and yet, they do the editing with that, and you know, et cetera, et cetera. So I think the further you go up the stack in the structured data and dedicated applications for specific functions in specific verticals, the further up the stack you go, the harder it is to justify a SAS offering where you're basically telling the end users you need to park all your data with us and then you can run your application in our cloud and get this. That ultimately is a dead end path versus having the data be open and available to many applications across this supercloud layer. >> Okay, so-- >> Is that making any sense? >> Yes, so if I could just ask a clarifying question. So, if I had to take Snowflake as an example, I think they're doing exactly what you're saying is a dead end, put everything into our proprietary system and then we'll figure out how to distribute it. >> Yeah. >> And and I think if you're familiar with Zhamak Dehghaniis' data mesh concept. Are you? >> A little bit, yeah. >> But in her model, Snowflake, a Snowflake warehouse is just a node on the mesh and that mesh is-- >> That's right. >> Ultimately the supercloud and you're an enabler of that is what I'm hearing. >> That's right. What they're doing up at the structured level and what they're talking about at the structured level we're doing at the underlying, unstructured level, which by the way has implications for how you implement those distributed database things. In other words, implementing a Snowflake on top of Hammerspace would have made building stuff like in the first place easier. It would allow you to easily shift and run the database engine anywhere. You still have to solve how to shard and distribute at the transaction layer above, so I'm not saying we're a substitute for what you need to do at the app layer. By the way, there is another example of that and that's Microsoft Office, right? It's one thing to share that, to have a file share where you can share all the docs. It's something else to have Word and PowerPoint, Excel know how to allow people to be simultaneously editing the same doc. That's always going to happen in the app layer. But not all applications need that level of, you know, in-app decentralization. You know, many of them, many workflows are pipelined, especially the ones that are very data intensive where you're doing drug discovery or you're doing rendering, or you're doing machine learning training. These things are human in the loop with large stages of processing across tens of thousands of cores. And I think that kind of data processing pipeline is what we're focusing on first. Not so much the Microsoft Office or the Snowflake, you know, parking a relational database because that takes a lot of application layer stuff and that's what they're good at. >> Right. >> But I think... >> Go ahead, sorry. >> Later entrance in these markets will find Hammerspace as a way to accelerate their work so they can focus more narrowly on just the stuff that's app-specific, higher level sharing in the app. >> Yes, Snowflake founders-- >> I think it might be worth mentioning also, just keep this confidential guys, but one of our customers is Blue Origin. And one of the things that we have found is kind of the point of what you're talking about with our customers. They're needing to build this and since it's not commercially available or they don't know where to look for it to be commercially available, they're all building themselves. So this layer is needed. And Blue is just one of the examples of quite a few we're now talking to. And like manufacturing, HPC, research where they're out trying to solve this problem with their own scripting tools and things like that. And I just, I don't know if there's anything you want to add, David, but you know, but there's definitely a demand here and customers are trying to figure out how to solve it beyond what Hammerspace is doing. Like the need is so great that they're just putting developers on trying to do it themselves. >> Well, and you know, Snowflake founders, they didn't have a Hammerspace to lean on. But, one of the things that's interesting about supercloud is we feel as though industry clouds will emerge, that as part of company's digital transformations, they will, you know, every company's a software company, they'll begin to build their own clouds and they will be able to use a Hammerspace to do that. >> A super pass layer. >> Yes. It's really, I don't know if David's speaking, I don't want to speak over him, but we can't hear you. May be going through a bad... >> Well, a regional, regional talks that make that possible. And so they're doing these render farms and editing farms, and it's a cloud-specific to the types of workflows in the median entertainment world. Or clouds specifically to workflows in the chip design world or in the drug and bio and life sciences exploration world. There are large organizations that are kind of a blend of end users, like the Broad, which has their own kind of cloud where they're asking collaborators to come in and work with them. So it starts to even blur who's an end user versus an ISV. >> Yes. >> Right? When you start talking about the massive data is the main gravity is to having lots of people participate. >> Yep, and that's where the value is. And that's where the value is. And this is a megatrend that we see. And so it's really important for us to get to the point of what is and what is not a supercloud and, you know, that's where we're trying to evolve. >> Let's talk about this for a second 'cause I want to, I want to challenge you on something and it's something that I got challenged on and it has led me to thinking differently than I did at first, which Molly can attest to. Okay? So, we have been looking for a way to talk about the concept of cloud of utility computing, run anything anywhere that isn't addressed in today's realization of cloud. 'Cause today's cloud is not run anything anywhere, it's quite the opposite. You park your data in AWS and that's where you run stuff. And you pretty much have to. Same with with Azure. They're using data gravity to keep you captive there, just like the old infrastructure guys did. But now it's even worse because it's coupled back with the software to some degree, as well. And you have to use their storage, networking, and compute. It's not, I mean it fell back to the mainframe era. Anyhow, so I love the concept of supercloud. By the way, I was going to suggest that a better term might be hyper cloud since hyper speaks to the multidimensionality of it and the ability to be in a, you know, be in a different dimension, a different plane of existence kind of thing like hyperspace. But super and hyper are somewhat synonyms. I mean, you have hyper cars and you have super cars and blah, blah, blah. I happen to like hyper maybe also because it ties into the whole Hammerspace notion of a hyper-dimensional, you know, reality, having your data centers connected by a wormhole that is Hammerspace. But regardless, what I got challenged on is calling it something different at all versus simply saying, this is what cloud has always meant to be. This is the true cloud, this is real cloud, this is cloud. And I think back to what happened, you'll remember, at Fusion IO we talked about IO memory and we did that because people had a conceptualization of what an SSD was. And an SSD back then was low capacity, low endurance, made to go military, aerospace where things needed to be rugged but was completely useless in the data center. And we needed people to imagine this thing as being able to displace entire SAND, with the kind of capacity density, performance density, endurance. And so we talked IO memory, we could have said enterprise SSD, and that's what the industry now refers to for that concept. What will people be saying five and 10 years from now? Will they simply say, well this is cloud as it was always meant to be where you are truly able to run anything anywhere and have not only the same APIs, but you're same data available with high performance access, all forms of access, block file and object everywhere. So yeah. And I wonder, and this is just me throwing it out there, I wonder if, well, there's trade offs, right? Giving it a new moniker, supercloud, versus simply talking about how cloud is always intended to be and what it was meant to be, you know, the real cloud or true cloud, there are trade-offs. By putting a name on it and branding it, that lets people talk about it and understand they're talking about something different. But it also is that an affront to people who thought that that's what they already had. >> What's different, what's new? Yes, and so we've given a lot of thought to this. >> Right, it's like you. >> And it's because we've been asked that why does the industry need a new term, and we've tried to address some of that. But some of the inside baseball that we haven't shared is, you remember the Web 2.0, back then? >> Yep. >> Web 2.0 was the same thing. And I remember Tim Burners Lee saying, "Why do we need Web 2.0? "This is what the Web was always supposed to be." But the truth is-- >> I know, that was another perfect-- >> But the truth is it wasn't, number one. Number two, everybody hated the Web 2.0 term. John Furrier was actually in the middle of it all. And then it created this groundswell. So one of the things we wrote about is that supercloud is an evocative term that catalyzes debate and conversation, which is what we like, of course. And maybe that's self-serving. But yeah, HyperCloud, Metacloud, super, meaning, it's funny because super came from Latin supra, above, it was never the superlative. But the superlative was a convenient byproduct that caused a lot of friction and flack, which again, in the media business is like a perfect storm brewing. >> The bad thing to have to, and I think you do need to shake people out of their, the complacency of the limitations that they're used to. And I'll tell you what, the fact that you even have the terms hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, private cloud, edge computing, those are all just referring to the different boundaries that isolate the silo that is the current limited cloud. >> Right. >> So if I heard correctly, what just, in terms of us defining what is and what isn't in supercloud, you would say traditional applications which have to run in a certain place, in a certain cloud can't run anywhere else, would be the stuff that you would not put in as being addressed by supercloud. And over time, you would want to be able to run the data where you want to and in any of those concepts. >> Or even modern apps, right? Or even modern apps that are siloed in SAS within an individual cloud, right? >> So yeah, I guess it's twofold. Number one, if you're going at the high application layers, there's lots of ways that you can give the appearance of anything running anywhere. The ISV, the SAS vendor can engineer stuff to have the ability to serve with low enough latency to different geographies, right? So if you go too high up the stack, it kind of loses its meaning because there's lots of different ways to make due and give the appearance of omni-presence of the service. Okay? As you come down more towards the platform layer, it gets harder and harder to mask the fact that supercloud is something entirely different than just a good regionally-distributed SAS service. So I don't think you, I don't think you can distinguish supercloud if you go too high up the stack because it's just SAS, it's just a good SAS service where the SAS vendor has done the hard work to give you low latency access from different geographic regions. >> Yeah, so this is one of the hardest things, David. >> Common among them. >> Yeah, this is really an important point. This is one of the things I've had the most trouble with is why is this not just SAS? >> So you dilute your message when you go up to the SAS layer. If you were to focus most of this around the super pass layer, the how can you host applications and run them anywhere and not host this, not run a service, not have a service available everywhere. So how can you take any application, even applications that are written, you know, in a traditional legacy data center fashion and be able to run them anywhere and have them have their binaries and their datasets and the runtime environment and the infrastructure to start them and stop them? You know, the jobs, the, what the Kubernetes, the job scheduler? What we're really talking about here, what I think we're really talking about here is building the operating system for a decentralized cloud. What is the operating system, the operating environment for a decentralized cloud? Where you can, and that the main two functions of an operating system or an operating environment are the process scheduler, the thing that's scheduling what is running where and when and so forth, and the file system, right? The thing that's supplying a common view and access to data. So when we talk about this, I think that the strongest argument for supercloud is made when you go down to the platform layer and talk of it, talk about it as an operating environment on which you can run all forms of applications. >> Would you exclude--? >> Not a specific application that's been engineered as a SAS. (audio distortion) >> He'll come back. >> Are you there? >> Yeah, yeah, you just cut out for a minute. >> I lost your last statement when you broke up. >> We heard you, you said that not the specific application. So would you exclude Snowflake from supercloud? >> Frankly, I would. I would. Because, well, and this is kind of hard to do because Snowflake doesn't like to, Frank doesn't like to talk about Snowflake as a SAS service. It has a negative connotation. >> But it is. >> I know, we all know it is. We all know it is and because it is, yes, I would exclude them. >> I think I actually have him on camera. >> There's nothing in common. >> I think I have him on camera or maybe Benoit as saying, "Well, we are a SAS." I think it's Slootman. I think I said to Slootman, "I know you don't like to say you're a SAS." And I think he said, "Well, we are a SAS." >> Because again, if you go to the top of the application stack, there's any number of ways you can give it location agnostic function or you know, regional, local stuff. It's like let's solve the location problem by having me be your one location. How can it be decentralized if you're centralizing on (audio distortion)? >> Well, it's more decentralized than if it's all in one cloud. So let me actually, so the spectrum. So again, in the spirit of what is and what isn't, I think it's safe to say Hammerspace is supercloud. I think there's no debate there, right? Certainly among this crowd. And I think we can all agree that Dell, Dell Storage is not supercloud. Where it gets fuzzy is this Snowflake example or even, how about a, how about a Cohesity that instantiates its stack in different cloud regions in different clouds, and synchronizes, however magic sauce it does that. Is that a supercloud? I mean, so I'm cautious about having too strict of a definition 'cause then only-- >> Fair enough, fair enough. >> But I could use your help and thoughts on that. >> So I think we're talking about two different spectrums here. One is the spectrum of platform to application-specific. As you go up the application stack and it becomes this specific thing. Or you go up to the more and more structured where it's serving a specific application function where it's more of a SAS thing. I think it's harder to call a SAS service a supercloud. And I would argue that the reason there, and what you're lacking in the definition is to talk about it as general purpose. Okay? Now, that said, a data warehouse is general purpose at the structured data level. So you could make the argument for why Snowflake is a supercloud by saying that it is a general purpose platform for doing lots of different things. It's just one at a higher level up at the structured data level. So one spectrum is the high level going from platform to, you know, unstructured data to structured data to very application-specific, right? Like a specific, you know, CAD/CAM mechanical design cloud, like an Autodesk would want to give you their cloud for running, you know, and sharing CAD/CAM designs, doing your CAD/CAM anywhere stuff. Well, the other spectrum is how well does the purported supercloud technology actually live up to allowing you to run anything anywhere with not just the same APIs but with the local presence of data with the exact same runtime environment everywhere, and to be able to correctly manage how to get that runtime environment anywhere. So a Cohesity has some means of running things in different places and some means of coordinating what's where and of serving diff, you know, things in different places. I would argue that it is a very poor approximation of what Hammerspace does in providing the exact same file system with local high performance access everywhere with metadata ability to control where the data is actually instantiated so that you don't have to wait for it to get orchestrated. But even then when you do have to wait for it, it happens automatically and so it's still only a matter of, well, how quick is it? And on the other end of the spectrum is you could look at NetApp with Flexcache and say, "Is that supercloud?" And I would argue, well kind of because it allows you to run things in different places because it's a cache. But you know, it really isn't because it presumes some central silo from which you're cacheing stuff. So, you know, is it or isn't it? Well, it's on a spectrum of exactly how fully is it decoupling a runtime environment from specific locality? And I think a cache doesn't, it stretches a specific silo and makes it have some semblance of similar access in other places. But there's still a very big difference to the central silo, right? You can't turn off that central silo, for example. >> So it comes down to how specific you make the definition. And this is where it gets kind of really interesting. It's like cloud. Does IBM have a cloud? >> Exactly. >> I would say yes. Does it have the kind of quality that you would expect from a hyper-scale cloud? No. Or see if you could say the same thing about-- >> But that's a problem with choosing a name. That's the problem with choosing a name supercloud versus talking about the concept of cloud and how true up you are to that concept. >> For sure. >> Right? Because without getting a name, you don't have to draw, yeah. >> I'd like to explore one particular or bring them together. You made a very interesting observation that from a enterprise point of view, they want to safeguard their store, their data, and they want to make sure that they can have that data running in their own workflows, as well as, as other service providers providing services to them for that data. So, and in in particular, if you go back to, you go back to Snowflake. If Snowflake could provide the ability for you to have your data where you wanted, you were in charge of that, would that make Snowflake a supercloud? >> I'll tell you, in my mind, they would be closer to my conceptualization of supercloud if you can instantiate Snowflake as software on your own infrastructure, and pump your own data to Snowflake that's instantiated on your own infrastructure. The fact that it has to be on their infrastructure or that it's on their, that it's on their account in the cloud, that you're giving them the data and they're, that fundamentally goes against it to me. If they, you know, they would be a pure, a pure plate if they were a software defined thing where you could instantiate Snowflake machinery on the infrastructure of your choice and then put your data into that machinery and get all the benefits of Snowflake. >> So did you see--? >> In other words, if they were not a SAS service, but offered all of the similar benefits of being, you know, if it were a service that you could run on your own infrastructure. >> So did you see what they announced, that--? >> I hope that's making sense. >> It does, did you see what they announced at Dell? They basically announced the ability to take non-native Snowflake data, read it in from an object store on-prem, like a Dell object store. They do the same thing with Pure, read it in, running it in the cloud, and then push it back out. And I was saying to Dell, look, that's fine. Okay, that's interesting. You're taking a materialized view or an extended table, whatever you're doing, wouldn't it be more interesting if you could actually run the query locally with your compute? That would be an extension that would actually get my attention and extend that. >> That is what I'm talking about. That's what I'm talking about. And that's why I'm saying I think Hammerspace is more progressive on that front because with our technology, anybody who can instantiate a service, can make a service. And so I, so MSPs can use Hammerspace as a way to build a super pass layer and host their clients on their infrastructure in a cloud-like fashion. And their clients can have their own private data centers and the MSP or the public clouds, and Hammerspace can be instantiated, get this, by different parties in these different pieces of infrastructure and yet linked together to make a common file system across all of it. >> But this is data mesh. If I were HPE and Dell it's exactly what I'd be doing. I'd be working with Hammerspace to create my own data. I'd work with Databricks, Snowflake, and any other-- >> Data mesh is a good way to put it. Data mesh is a good way to put it. And this is at the lowest level of, you know, the underlying file system that's mountable by the operating system, consumed as a real file system. You can't get lower level than that. That's why this is the foundation for all of the other apps and structured data systems because you need to have a data mesh that can at least mesh the binary blob. >> Okay. >> That hold the binaries and that hold the datasets that those applications are running. >> So David, in the third week of January, we're doing supercloud 2 and I'm trying to convince John Furrier to make it a data slash data mesh edition. I'm slowly getting him to the knothole. I would very much, I mean you're in the Bay Area, I'd very much like you to be one of the headlines. As Zhamak Dehghaniis going to speak, she's the creator of Data Mesh, >> Sure. >> I'd love to have you come into our studio as well, for the live session. If you can't make it, we can pre-record. But you're right there, so I'll get you the dates. >> We'd love to, yeah. No, you can count on it. No, definitely. And you know, we don't typically talk about what we do as Data Mesh. We've been, you know, using global data environment. But, you know, under the covers, that's what the thing is. And so yeah, I think we can frame the discussion like that to line up with other, you know, with the other discussions. >> Yeah, and Data Mesh, of course, is one of those evocative names, but she has come up with some very well defined principles around decentralized data, data as products, self-serve infrastructure, automated governance, and and so forth, which I think your vision plugs right into. And she's brilliant. You'll love meeting her. >> Well, you know, and I think.. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead, Peter. >> Just like to work one other interface which I think is important. How do you see yourself and the open source? You talked about having an operating system. Obviously, Linux is the operating system at one level. How are you imagining that you would interface with cost community as part of this development? >> Well, it's funny you ask 'cause my CTO is the kernel maintainer of the storage networking stack. So how the Linux operating system perceives and consumes networked data at the file system level, the network file system stack is his purview. He owns that, he wrote most of it over the last decade that he's been the maintainer, but he's the gatekeeper of what goes in. And we have leveraged his abilities to enhance Linux to be able to use this decentralized data, in particular with decoupling the control plane driven by metadata from the data access path and the many storage systems on which the data gets accessed. So this factoring, this splitting of control plane from data path, metadata from data, was absolutely necessary to create a data mesh like we're talking about. And to be able to build this supercloud concept. And the highways on which the data runs and the client which knows how to talk to it is all open source. And we have, we've driven the NFS 4.2 spec. The newest NFS spec came from my team. And it was specifically the enhancements needed to be able to build a spanning file system, a data mesh at a file system level. Now that said, our file system itself and our server, our file server, our data orchestration, our data management stuff, that's all closed source, proprietary Hammerspace tech. But the highways on which the mesh connects are actually all open source and the client that knows how to consume it. So we would, honestly, I would welcome competitors using those same highways. They would be at a major disadvantage because we kind of built them, but it would still be very validating and I think only increase the potential adoption rate by more than whatever they might take of the market. So it'd actually be good to split the market with somebody else to come in and share those now super highways for how to mesh data at the file system level, you know, in here. So yeah, hopefully that answered your question. Does that answer the question about how we embrace the open source? >> Right, and there was one other, just that my last one is how do you enable something to run in every environment? And if we take the edge, for example, as being, as an environment which is much very, very compute heavy, but having a lot less capability, how do you do a hold? >> Perfect question. Perfect question. What we do today is a software appliance. We are using a Linux RHEL 8, RHEL 8 equivalent or a CentOS 8, or it's, you know, they're all roughly equivalent. But we have bundled and a software appliance which can be instantiated on bare metal hardware on any type of VM system from VMware to all of the different hypervisors in the Linux world, to even Nutanix and such. So it can run in any virtualized environment and it can run on any cloud instance, server instance in the cloud. And we have it packaged and deployable from the marketplaces within the different clouds. So you can literally spin it up at the click of an API in the cloud on instances in the cloud. So with all of these together, you can basically instantiate a Hammerspace set of machinery that can offer up this file system mesh. like we've been using the terminology we've been using now, anywhere. So it's like being able to take and spin up Snowflake and then just be able to install and run some VMs anywhere you want and boom, now you have a Snowflake service. And by the way, it is so complete that some of our customers, I would argue many aren't even using public clouds at all, they're using this just to run their own data centers in a cloud-like fashion, you know, where they have a data service that can span it all. >> Yeah and to Molly's first point, we would consider that, you know, cloud. Let me put you on the spot. If you had to describe conceptually without a chalkboard what an architectural diagram would look like for supercloud, what would you say? >> I would say it's to have the same runtime environment within every data center and defining that runtime environment as what it takes to schedule the execution of applications, so job scheduling, runtime stuff, and here we're talking Kubernetes, Slurm, other things that do job scheduling. We're talking about having a common way to, you know, instantiate compute resources. So a global compute environment, having a common compute environment where you can instantiate things that need computing. Okay? So that's the first part. And then the second is the data platform where you can have file block and object volumes, and have them available with the same APIs in each of these distributed data centers and have the exact same data omnipresent with the ability to control where the data is from one moment to the next, local, where all the data is instantiate. So my definition would be a common runtime environment that's bifurcate-- >> Oh. (attendees chuckling) We just lost them at the money slide. >> That's part of the magic makes people listen. We keep someone on pin and needles waiting. (attendees chuckling) >> That's good. >> Are you back, David? >> I'm on the edge of my seat. Common runtime environment. It was like... >> And just wait, there's more. >> But see, I'm maybe hyper-focused on the lower level of what it takes to host and run applications. And that's the stuff to schedule what resources they need to run and to get them going and to get them connected through to their persistence, you know, and their data. And to have that data available in all forms and have it be the same data everywhere. On top of that, you could then instantiate applications of different types, including relational databases, and data warehouses and such. And then you could say, now I've got, you know, now I've got these more application-level or structured data-level things. I tend to focus less on that structured data level and the application level and am more focused on what it takes to host any of them generically on that super pass layer. And I'll admit, I'm maybe hyper-focused on the pass layer and I think it's valid to include, you know, higher levels up the stack like the structured data level. But as soon as you go all the way up to like, you know, a very specific SAS service, I don't know that you would call that supercloud. >> Well, and that's the question, is there value? And Marianna Tessel from Intuit said, you know, we looked at it, we did it, and it just, it was actually negative value for us because connecting to all these separate clouds was a real pain in the neck. Didn't bring us any additional-- >> Well that's 'cause they don't have this pass layer underneath it so they can't even shop around, which actually makes it hard to stand up your own SAS service. And ultimately they end up having to build their own infrastructure. Like, you know, I think there's been examples like Netflix moving away from the cloud to their own infrastructure. Basically, if you're going to rent it for more than a few months, it makes sense to build it yourself, if it's at any kind of scale. >> Yeah, for certain components of that cloud. But if the Goldman Sachs came to you, David, and said, "Hey, we want to collaborate and we want to build "out a cloud and essentially build our SAS system "and we want to do that with Hammerspace, "and we want to tap the physical infrastructure "of not only our data centers but all the clouds," then that essentially would be a SAS, would it not? And wouldn't that be a Super SAS or a supercloud? >> Well, you know, what they may be using to build their service is a supercloud, but their service at the end of the day is just a SAS service with global reach. Right? >> Yeah. >> You know, look at, oh shoot. What's the name of the company that does? It has a cloud for doing bookkeeping and accounting. I forget their name, net something. NetSuite. >> NetSuite. NetSuite, yeah, Oracle. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> Oracle acquired them, right? Is NetSuite a supercloud or is it just a SAS service? You know? I think under the covers you might ask are they using supercloud under the covers so that they can run their SAS service anywhere and be able to shop the venue, get elasticity, get all the benefits of cloud in the, to the benefit of their service that they're offering? But you know, folks who consume the service, they don't care because to them they're just connecting to some endpoint somewhere and they don't have to care. So the further up the stack you go, the more location-agnostic it is inherently anyway. >> And I think it's, paths is really the critical layer. We thought about IAS Plus and we thought about SAS Minus, you know, Heroku and hence, that's why we kind of got caught up and included it. But SAS, I admit, is the hardest one to crack. And so maybe we exclude that as a deployment model. >> That's right, and maybe coming down a level to saying but you can have a structured data supercloud, so you could still include, say, Snowflake. Because what Snowflake is doing is more general purpose. So it's about how general purpose it is. Is it hosting lots of other applications or is it the end application? Right? >> Yeah. >> So I would argue general purpose nature forces you to go further towards platform down-stack. And you really need that general purpose or else there is no real distinguishing. So if you want defensible turf to say supercloud is something different, I think it's important to not try to wrap your arms around SAS in the general sense. >> Yeah, and we've kind of not really gone, leaned hard into SAS, we've just included it as a deployment model, which, given the constraints that you just described for structured data would apply if it's general purpose. So David, super helpful. >> Had it sign. Define the SAS as including the hybrid model hold SAS. >> Yep. >> Okay, so with your permission, I'm going to add you to the list of contributors to the definition. I'm going to add-- >> Absolutely. >> I'm going to add this in. I'll share with Molly. >> Absolutely. >> We'll get on the calendar for the date. >> If Molly can share some specific language that we've been putting in that kind of goes to stuff we've been talking about, so. >> Oh, great. >> I think we can, we can share some written kind of concrete recommendations around this stuff, around the general purpose, nature, the common data thing and yeah. >> Okay. >> Really look forward to it and would be glad to be part of this thing. You said it's in February? >> It's in January, I'll let Molly know. >> Oh, January. >> What the date is. >> Excellent. >> Yeah, third week of January. Third week of January on a Tuesday, whatever that is. So yeah, we would welcome you in. But like I said, if it doesn't work for your schedule, we can prerecord something. But it would be awesome to have you in studio. >> I'm sure with this much notice we'll be able to get something. Let's make sure we have the dates communicated to Molly and she'll get my admin to set it up outside so that we have it. >> I'll get those today to you, Molly. Thank you. >> By the way, I am so, so pleased with being able to work with you guys on this. I think the industry needs it very bad. They need something to break them out of the box of their own mental constraints of what the cloud is versus what it's supposed to be. And obviously, the more we get people to question their reality and what is real, what are we really capable of today that then the more business that we're going to get. So we're excited to lend the hand behind this notion of supercloud and a super pass layer in whatever way we can. >> Awesome. >> Can I ask you whether your platforms include ARM as well as X86? >> So we have not done an ARM port yet. It has been entertained and won't be much of a stretch. >> Yeah, it's just a matter of time. >> Actually, entertained doing it on behalf of NVIDIA, but it will absolutely happen because ARM in the data center I think is a foregone conclusion. Well, it's already there in some cases, but not quite at volume. So definitely will be the case. And I'll tell you where this gets really interesting, discussion for another time, is back to my old friend, the SSD, and having SSDs that have enough brains on them to be part of that fabric. Directly. >> Interesting. Interesting. >> Very interesting. >> Directly attached to ethernet and able to create a data mesh global file system, that's going to be really fascinating. Got to run now. >> All right, hey, thanks you guys. Thanks David, thanks Molly. Great to catch up. Bye-bye. >> Bye >> Talk to you soon.

(intro upbeat music) >> TheCUBE presents UiPath Forward5, Brought to you by UiPath. >> Welcome to day two of Forward5 UiPath Customer Conference. You're watching theCUBE. My name is Dave Vellante. My co-host is David Nicholson. Yesterday, Dave, we heard about the extension into an enterprise platform. We heard about, from the two CEOs, a new go-to-market strategy. We heard from a lot of customers how they're implementing UiPath generally and automation, specifically, scaling, hyper-automation, and all the buzzwords you hear. Todd Foley is the CDO and CSO of Lydonia Technologies and Devika Saharya is the director of ERP and RPA at MongoDB. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for taking time out of your busy day and coming on. >> Thank you Dave. >> Thank you so much. >> So let's start with the roles. So Devika, ERP and RPA. >> Yes. >> It's like peanut butter and jelly, or how do those things relate? What's your, what's your role? >> Absolutely. So I started at Mongo as an ERP manager, and you know, as we were growing, the one thing that came out of, you know, the every year goals for the company, one big goal that came out was how we have to scale. There are so many barriers to scale. How can we become a billion dollar company? What do we need to do? And when we started drilling down into, you know, different areas, we figured it out that people do a lot of stuff manually. It's like comparing sheets, you know, copying data from one place to the other, and so on and so forth. So one thing that we realized was we definitely need some kind of automation. At that time, we didn't know about automation, but we did our own market research and here we are. >> Let's automate. Yeah, right. (Devika laughs) Sounds easy. All right, thank you. Todd, CDO, Chief Data or Chief Dig, and CSO, I'm assuming Chief Data? >> Chief Data. >> And the Chief Information Security Officer. Tell us about Lydonia and also your role. >> Sure, Lydonia, we started just over three years ago. We looked at the RPA market. We saw great opportunity, but we also saw a challenge. We saw that a lot of people had deployed RPA but weren't getting the promised, you know, immediate ROI, rapid deployment that was out there. And when we looked at it, we saw that it really wasn't a technical challenge. Sometimes it was how technology was applied, but there were a lot of things that people were doing in their process and how they were treating RPA, often as if it were traditional technology that slowed them down. So we built our practice, our company, around the idea of being able to help people scale very quickly and drive that faster. And we're finding now with the RPA being pretty ubiquitous, that it's the one thing that's in the greatest demand among our clients. >> Okay, so you're the implementation partner for Mongo, is that right? >> We are. >> Okay, so relatively new. Very new actually, but a specialist. Why'd you choose Lydonia? >> So, that's an interesting question. When we came last year to UiPath Forward, we were looking for, you know, the right kind of people who can, you know, put us on track. We had the technology, we had everything in place, we did the POC, everybody liked it, but we didn't know how to, you know, basically go in that direction. We were missing that direction. And then we, you know, we were doing our homework here, we found, we accidentally stumbled with Lydonia, and I had follow up conversations with Todd, and they were just so tapered. I knew exactly what Todd was explaining me, and we knew we are, we are in safe hands. >> So, where did you start? >> So we, the first thing that we did was a POC for the finance side of business. And right after that POC, we realized that, you know, how much time people were actually investing manually, like things that were done in three to four days was turning into a 30 minute process. And that gave us, you know, the idea that we should start drilling down into different departments and try to find where there are, you know, areas where we can improve. And we did all of that. And then we met with Todd, and Todd explained that how his Reignite process works. So we took Reignite as our first step and, you know, took it from there. We chose one department, we worked with them. We had about 10 processes highlighted, thanks to Todd, he worked with them, and he literally drilled and nailed it down that what we need to do. And as of today, all those 10 are automated. >> Wow. Okay. >> Todd, does this interaction between Lydonia and MongoDB, as a customer, apply equally in the field when you're going out and talking to clients that might be running MongoDB, they might be customers of MongoDB, they may have financial applications that are backended with MongoDB, is there a synergy there that you've been able to gain? >> I think there is. I think there's one thing that's kind of unique about RPA, and that the traditional questions around integration and applicability aren't as important when you have a platform that can work with anything that people can use. I think also, you know, when we look at what we typically do with people, some of the things we see at Mongo are very common use cases you know, across all of our clients. So I, there's definitely the ability for us to take things we've done and have clients get leverage out of them. At the same time, the platform itself is, makes it different than a traditional model where, you know if somebody has worked in a particular area or built an automation for a particular application, there's some kind of utility to do it faster for another client. What we find is that that's not really the case. And that oftentimes we'll compete with people who use different tool sets than UiPath who have that kind of value story around having done it before, we come in and we do it twice as fast as they could. >> So you've, you're a veteran of complex integrations. >> Oh yeah. (Todd laughs) >> I know that from our paths have crossed in the past. So you're saying that in this world of RPA, that this tool set like UiPath as a platform, we've been talking a lot about the difference between being a tool set and being a platform. >> Right. >> That this platform can sort of hover above things without that same layer of complexity, or level of complexity, that you've experienced in the past. Because that speaks to the idea that UiPath, as a platform, is going to work moving forward in a big way. >> Exactly, right. I think we've seen for years and years that regardless of the type of development environment you're using, a developer's value sometimes is based on what reusable libraries they've created, what they have to cut and paste from their old code to be able to do things faster. The challenge with that is it has to be maintained, when things change, they've got to update those libraries. It's a value prop that's very high touch. With UiPath, they've created the ultimate in reusability. The platform, especially since they acquired cloud elements and built all of those API integrations into their platform. The platform maintains the reusability and the libraries in such a way where they're drag and drop from a development standpoint and you don't have to maintain them. It's the ultimate expression of reusability as a platform. >> Yeah, cloud elements, API automation, obviously a key pick by UiPath. Devika, what's the scale of your operation today? Like how many bots and where do you see it going? >> Yes. So we, we started with one bot. Last year we experimented a lot that, you know, we were just trying to make our footprint in the company, trying to understand that, you know, people understand what RPA is, what UiPath is. Initially we got a lot of pushback. We got a pushback from our security team as well, because they could not understand, you know, that what UiPath is and how secure it is. And we had to explain them that how we would host it over AWS, how we will work, how we will not save passwords, et cetera. When we did all of that and they got comfort, we started picking, you know, very small processes around to show, you know, people the capability of RPA and UiPath per se. When we did that, people started just coming with bigger processes, and one specific team that I can think of came that we do, you know, fuzzy logic in Excel, and we do it twice a week, but it takes a lot of time. We automated it, they run it daily, every single day, two times now. And the exponential growth that we saw just with that one automation was mind boggling. I couldn't believe that, you know. We were tracking our insights and we were like, oh my God, what happened? It just blew out of proportion. >> Okay. So then did you need more bots? Are you still running one bot, or? >> Nope. Now at the moment we have nine. >> Okay. >> And we are still looking to grow. >> Okay. So the initial friction, you said there was some, you know, concern, it was primarily security or were there others, people afraid they're going to lose their jobs? Was there any of that? >> There was no risk of losing the job. The major, you know, pushback was, one was from security, the other one was from different system owners because a lot of people were not sure why we want UI access, or why we want API access, and why are we accessing their systems? What type of information we are trying to gather out of their systems. Are we writing into their system? Because a lot of people have issues when we start saying that we will write or override data. So most of the processes that we are working around are either writing, comparing, and reading and comparing, and if it is writing, we take special permission that this is what we are going to do. >> So what did you have to do to get through the security mottle, a AWS SOC 2 report, did you have to show them the UiPath pen test? >> Absolutely. >> Did you have to change any of your processes? What was that sort of punch list like? >> Everything. >> Yeah. >> So we had to start from pen test. We had to start, we had to explain that UiPath is in the process of, you know, acquiring SOC. We also explained that how things are hosted on AWS. We had to, you know, bring our consultants in who explained that how on, on AWS, this will be a very secured way of doing things. And when we did our first process, which was actually for the auditors, which is, you know, interesting. >> Yeah. >> What we did was we did segregation of duties, which I think is very important in every field and every sphere we work in. So for example, the the writeup that we were building for auditors, we made sure that it is approved by a physical or a human, you know, and not everything is done by the bot. The biggest piece of the puzzle was writing, you know, because it was taking a lot of time. People were going into different systems, gathering information, putting it on Excel, and then you know, comparing and submitting it to PWC. >> When you say write, you mean any update to a system of record? >> Correct. >> Required some scrutiny? >> Some scrutiny, yes, yes. >> Okay, initially by a human until there was comfort level and then it's like these bots know what they're doing. >> Correct, correct. >> Okay. And now you're a NetSuite customer, correct? >> Yes. >> That's your ERP? >> That's right. >> Now we were talking about Oracle is going to acquire OCR capabilities. Will that, and we've been talking, Dave and I, a week about, okay well ServiceNow has, you know, RPA, and Salesforce, and SAP, et cetera. How will that affect your thinking about adopting UiPath? >> I don't think it should matter because I think all these systems kind of coexist in a bigger ecosystem, you know, and I also feel that all these systems have their own plus points and minus points. Not one system in, per se, can do everything within a company. So it could be that, for example, NetSuite might be very strong for financials in the space we are in, but not extremely good around sales and marketing. So for that company chose Salesforce. So you know, you have those smaller smaller multiple systems that build into a bigger ecosystem, right. And I think the other piece of the puzzle is that UiPath helps bridge that gap between these systems. You know, it could happen that certain things can get integrated, certain things cannot because of the nature of business, the nature of work that the teams are trying to do. And I think UiPath is leveraging that gap, you know, and putting, you know, those strings together. >> As you scale - >> Mm hmm. >> How will, and Todd I presume you're going to assist in this process, but how will you decide what processes to prioritize, and is that a process driven decision? Is it data led? Both? If so, what kind of data? Can you describe how you guys are going to approach that? >> Yep. Todd, would you like to take that first before I start? >> Sure, yeah. >> Maybe some best practices and then we can maybe get specific to Mongo. >> Absolutely. Our guidance is always that it should be a business decision, right? And it should be data driven, based on a business defined metric around the business case for that particular automation. Our guidance to customers is don't automate it unless you know why you're automating it, and what the value is. We see sometimes there are challenges with people being able to articulate the business case for an automation, and it can almost always be resolved by having that business case be the first step, and qualifying and identifying an automation candidate. >> And how does that apply to Mongo? Do you, where are you thinking about scaling, in your opinion? >> It's interesting because, you know, initially we thought that we will, you know, explore one area in MongoDB. And the other thing that we did was we did road shows. So because we had to create some awareness in the company that we have UiPath there's something called bots. There's something called, you know, automation that we can do, so we created a presentation with small demos inside it and, you know, circulated it within the company. Different departments tried to explain what we can achieve. And based off of that, you know, we came up with a laundry list of all the automations that different departments needed. And out of that, you know, we started doing the business case, the value, you know, trying to come up with complexity, effort. We did a full estimation matrix and based off of that we came, okay, these are the top 20 that we should build first. And as soon as we built those top 20, we saw a skyrocket, you know, growth and - >> And you're looking for hard dollars, right? >> Yes, yes. Absolutely. >> Okay, just to be clear. >> Devika, I think Mongo also is great at taking a data driven approach to looking at their program. Do you want to share how you do that? >> Yes, absolutely. So one thing that we were very sure was we have to talk in terms of numbers because that's the only solid way to see growth. And what we did was, you know, we got insights, we started doing full metrics in terms of dollar saved, hour saved, and we are trying to track how every process is impacting, you know, in the grand scheme of things. Like say for example, for finance, are we shortening the close cycle in any shape or form by doing these two or three automations that we are doing? And I'm happy to report that we have really shortened our close cycle from where we started. >> Your quarter end or month end close. >> Correct, yes. >> Daily? You at the daily close yet, (all laugh) or the "John Chambers"? >> Drive everyone nuts. First I have to say, I could feel the audience sort of smiling as they see, as they hear from MongoDB, disruptor of legacy databases being cautious in their internal approach to change. As everyone else is. >> Exactly, yeah. >> But Todd, just sort of, double clicking on this idea of kind of stove pipes of capabilities in the RPA space. I mean OCR, being added to NetSuite, I'm not sure if that's the greatest example, but the point is Lydonia will work with all of those technologies to synthesize something. Is that correct? Or are you a UiPath only? >> Both. So we exclusively use UiPath with our customers. We don't use other RPA platforms. >> Okay. >> And we don't because, not because we can't, but because we don't believe that anything else is going to be as quick or as effective. Also, it's the only platform that is as broad and comprehensive as it needs to be to deliver outcomes to our customers. We have partnerships with other companies that have gaps where UiPath isn't currently playing, but the number of companies and the number of gaps has shrunk down to almost nothing these days. And we're well placed as UiPath continues to grow their platform to take advantage of that and leverage that to deliver outcomes to customers. >> It was a great story of starting small, being careful. >> Yes. >> And prudent, from a security standpoint, especially as a public company. And then it sounds like there's virtually unlimited opportunity. >> Yes, absolutely, absolutely. >> For you guys. Great story, thank you very much for sharing it. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> All right, good luck. All right, thank you for watching. Keep it right there. Dave Nicholson and Dave Vellante will be back from UiPath Forward5 from the Venetian in Las Vegas. Be right back. (upbeat music playing)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the cube in ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> On Friday, December 10th, Oracle announced a strong earnings beat and raise, on the strength of its licensed business, and slightly better than expected cloud performance. The stock was up sharply on the day and closed up nearly 16% surpassing 280 billion in market value. Oracle's success is due largely to its execution, of a highly differentiated strategy, that has really evolved over the past decade or more, deeply integrating its hardware and software, heavily investing in next generation cloud, creating a homogeneous experience across its application portfolio, and becoming the number one platform. Number one for the world's most mission critical applications. Now, while investors piled into the stock, skeptics will point to the beat being weighed toward licensed revenue and likely keep one finger on the sell button until they're convinced Oracle's cloud momentum, is more consistent and predictable. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibond CUBE insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we'll review Oracle's most recent quarter, and pull in some ETR survey data, to frame the company's cloud business, the momentum of fusion ERP, where the company is winning and some gaps and opportunities that we see. The numbers this quarter was strong, particularly top line growth. Here are a few highlights. Oracle's revenues that grew 6% year on year that's in constant currency, surpassed $10 billion for the quarter. Oracle's non-gap operating margins, were an impressive 47%. Safra Catz has always said cloud is more profitable business and it's really starting to show in the income statement. Operating cash and free cash flow were 10.3 billion and 7.1 billion respectively, for the past four quarters, and would have been higher, if not for charges largely related to litigation expenses tied to the hiring of Mark Hurd, which the company said would not repeat in the future quarters. And you can see in this chart how Oracle breaks down its business, which is kind of a mishmash of items they lump into so-called the cloud. The largest piece of the revenue pie is cloud services, and licensed support, which in reading 10Ks, you'll find statements like the following; licensed support revenues are our largest revenue stream and include product upgrades, and maintenance releases and patches, as well as technical support assistance and statements like the following; cloud and licensed revenue, include the sale of cloud services, cloud licenses and on-premises licenses, which typically represent perpetual software licenses purchased by customers, for use in both cloud, and on-premises, IT environments. And cloud license and on-prem license revenues primarily represent amounts earned from granting customers perpetual licenses to use our database middleware application in industry specific products, which our customers use for cloud-based, on-premise and other IT environments. So you tell me, "is that cloud? I don't know." In the early days of Oracle cloud, the company used to break out, IaaS, PaaS and SaaS revenue separately, but it changed its mind, which really makes it difficult to determine what's happening in true cloud. Look I have no problem including same same hardware software control plane, et cetera. The hybrid if it's on-prem in a true hybrid environment like exadata cloud@customer or AWS outposts. But you have to question what's really cloud in these numbers. And Larry in the earnings call mentioned that Salesforce licenses the Oracle database, to run its cloud and Oracle doesn't count that in its cloud number, rather it counts it in license revenue, but as you can see it varies that into a line item that starts with the word cloud. So I guess I would say that Oracle's reporting is maybe somewhat better than IBM's cloud reporting, which is the worst, but I can't really say what is and isn't cloud, in these numbers. Nonetheless, Oracle is getting it done for investors. Here's a chart comparing the five-year performance of Oracle to some of its legacy peers. We excluded Microsoft because it skews the numbers. Microsoft would really crush all these names including Oracle. But look at Oracle. It's wedged in between the performance of the NASDAQ and the S&P 500, it's up over 160% in that five-year timeframe, well ahead of SAP which is up 59% in that time, and way ahead of the dismal -22% performance of IBM. Well, it's a shame. The tech tide is rising, it's lifting all boats but, IBM has unfortunately not been able to capitalize. That's a story for another day. As a market watcher, you can't help but love Larry Ellison. I only met him once at an IDC conference in Paris where I got to interview Scott McNealy, CEO at the time. Ellison is great for analysts because, he's not afraid to talk about the competition. He'll brag, he'll insult, he'll explain, and he'll pitch his stories. Now on the earnings call last night, he went off. Educating the analyst community, on the upside in the fusion ERP business, making the case that because only a thousand of the 7,500 legacy on-prem ERP customers from Oracle, JD Edwards and PeopleSoft have moved Oracle's fusion cloud ERP, and he predicted that Oracle's cloud ERP business will surpass 20 billion in five years. In fact, he said it's going to bigger than that. He slammed the hybrid cloud washing. You can see one of the quotes here in this chart, that's going on when companies have customers running in the cloud and they claim whatever they have on premise hybrid, he called that ridiculous. I would agree. And then he took an opportunity to slam the hyperscale cloud vendors, citing a telco customer that said Oracle's cloud never goes down, and of course, he chose the same week, that AWS had a major outage. And so to these points, I would say that Oracle really was the first tech company, to announce a true hybrid cloud strategy, where you have an entirely identical experience on prem and in the cloud. This was announced with cloud@customer, two years, before AWS announced outposts. Now it probably took Oracle two years to get it working as advertised, but they were first. And to the second point, this is where Oracle differentiates itself. Oracle is number one for mission critical applications. No other vendor really can come close to Oracle in this regard. And I would say that Oracle is recent quarterly performance to a large extent, is due to this differentiated approach. Over the past 10 years, we've talked to hundreds literally. Hundreds and hundreds of Oracle customers. And while they may not always like the tactics and licensing policies of Oracle in their contracting, they will tell you, that business case for investing and staying with Oracle are very strong. And yes, a big part of that is lock-in but R&D investments innovation and a keen sense of market direction, are just as important to these customers. When you're chairman and founder is a technologist and also the CTO, and has the cash on hand to invest, the results are a highly competitive story. Now that's not to say Oracle is not without its challenges. That's not to say Oracle is without its challenges. Those who follow this program know that when it comes to ETR survey data, the story is not always pretty for Oracle. So let's take a look. This chart shows the breakdown of ETR is net score methodology, Net score measures spending momentum and works ETR. Each quarter asks customers, are you adding in the platform, That's the lime green. Increasing spend by 6% or more, that's the fourth green. Is you're spending E+ or minus 5%, that's the gray. You're spending climbing by 6%, that's the pinkish. Or are you leaving the platform, that's the bright red retiring. You subtract the reds from the greens, and that yields a net score, which an Oracle's overall case, is an uninspiring -4%. This is one of the anomalies in the ETR dataset. The net score doesn't track absolute actual levels, of spending the dollars. Remember, as the leader in mission critical workloads, Oracle commands a premium price. And so what happens here is the gray, is still spending a large amount of money, enough to offset the declines, and the greens are spending more than they would on other platforms because Oracle could command higher prices. And so that's how Oracle is able to grow its overall revenue by 6% for example, whereas the ETR methodology, doesn't capture that trend. So you have to dig into the data a bit deeper. We're not going to go too deep today, but let's take a look at how some of Oracle's businesses are performing relative to its competitors. This is a popular view that we like to share. It shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis, and market share. Market share is a measure of pervasiveness in the survey. Think of it as mentioned share. That's on the x-axis. And we've broken down and circled Oracle overall, Oracle on prem, which is declining on the vertical axis, Oracle fusion and NetSuite, which are much higher than Oracle overall. And in the case of fusion, much closer to that 40% magic red horizontal line, remember anything above that line, we consider to be elevated. Now we've added SAP overall which has, momentum comparable to fusion in the survey, using this methodology and IBM, which is in between fusion and Oracle, overall on the y-axis. Oracle as you can see on the horizontal axis, has a larger presence than any of these firms that are below the 40% line. Now, above that 40% line, you see companies with a smaller presence in the survey like Workday, salesforce.com, pretty big presence still, Google cloud also, and Snowflake. Smaller presence but much much higher net score than anybody else on this chart. And AWS and Microsoft overall with both a strong presence, and impressive momentum, especially for their respective sizes. Now that view that we just showed you excluded on purpose Oracle specific cloud offering. So let's now take a look at that relative to other cloud providers. This chart shows the same XY view, but it cuts the data by cloud only. And you can see Oracle while still well below the 40% line, has a net score of +15 compared to a -4 overall that we showed you earlier. So here we see two key points. One, despite the convoluted reporting that we talked about earlier, the ETR data supports that Oracle's cloud business has significantly more momentum than Oracle's overall average momentum. And two, while Oracle is smaller and doesn't have the growth of the hyperscale giants, it's cloud is performing noticeably better than IBM's within the ETR survey data. Now a key point Ellison emphasized on the earnings call, was the importance of ERP, and the work that Oracle has done in this space. It lives by this notion of a cloud first mentality. It builds stuff for the cloud and then, would bring it on-prem. And it's been attracting new customers according to the company. He said Oracle has 8,500 fusion ERP customers, and 28,000 NetSuite customers in the cloud. And unlike Microsoft, it hasn't migrated its on-prem install base, to the cloud yet. Meaning these are largely new customers. Now this chart isolates fusion and NetSuite, within a sector ETR calls GPP. The very giant, public and private companies. And this is a bellwether of spending in the ETR dataset. They've gone back and it correlates to performance. So think large public companies, the biggest ones, and also privates big privates like Mars or Cargo or Fidelity. The chart shows the net score breakdown over time for fusion and NetSuite going back to 2019. And you can see, a big uptick as shown in the blue line from the October, 2020 survey. So Oracle has done a good job building and now marketing its cloud ERP to these important customers. Now, the last thing we want to show you is Oracle's performance within industry sectors. On the earnings call, Oracle said that it had a very strong momentum for fusion in financial services and healthcare. And this chart shows the net score for fusion, across each industry sector that ETR tracks, for three survey points. October, 2020, that's the gray bars, July 21, that's the blue bars and October, 2021, the yellow bars. So look it confirms Oracles assertions across the board that they're seeing fusion perform very well including the two verticals that are called out healthcare and banking slash financial services. Now the big question is where does Oracle go from here? Oracle has had a history of looking like it's going to break out, only to hit some bumps in the road. And so investors are likely going to remain a bit cautious and take profits off the table along the way. But since the Barron's article came out, we reported on that earlier this year in February, declaring Oracle a cloud giant, the stock is up more than 50% of course. 16 of those points were from Friday's move upward, but still, Oracle's highly differentiated strategy of integrating hardware and software together, investing in a modern cloud platform and selectively offering services that cater to the hardcore mission critical buyer, these have served the company, its customers and investors as well. From a cloud standpoint, we'd like to see Oracle be more inclusive, and aggressively expand its marketplace and its ecosystem. This would provide both greater optionality for customers, and further establish Oracle as a major cloud player. Indeed, one of the hallmarks of both AWS and Azure is the momentum being created, by their respective ecosystems. As well, we'd like to see more clear confirmation that Oracle's performance is being driven by its investments in technology IE cloud, same same hybrid, and industry features these modern investments, versus a legacy licensed cycles. We are generally encouraged and are reminded, of years ago when Sam Palmisano, he was retiring and leaving as the CEO of IBM. At the time, HP under the direction ironically of Mark Hurd, was the now company, Palmisano was asked, "do you worry about HP?" And he said in fact, "I don't worry about HP. I worry about Oracle because Oracle invests in R&D." And that statement has proven present. What do you think? Has Oracle hit the next inflection point? Let me know. Don't forget these episodes they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen, all you do is search it. Breaking Analysis podcast, check out ETR website at etr.plus. We also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconANGLE.com. You can get in touch with me on email David.vellante@siliconangle.com, you can DM me @dvellante on Twitter or, comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights. Powered by ETR. Have a great week everybody. Stay safe, be well, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome everybody to the cubes live coverage of AWS reinvent 2021. We're here in the main hall. Yes, this is a physical event. It's a hybrid event, probably the industry's most important hybrid event in the year. We're super excited to be here. Of course, last year during the lockdown, reinvent was purely virtual. This year. They go in hybrid 20 plus thousand people. I hear the whisper numbers like 25, 20 7,000 hundreds of thousands of people online. The cubes here, two sets, we've got two remote studios, super excited. I'd like to introduce my co-host David Nicholson. He'll be here all week with us. Uh, John furrier is also here, Lisa Martin for the cubes wall-to-wall coverage. And we're so psyched to start off this session with Kenneth Chestnut. Who's the head of technology partnerships at Stripe. Stripe's an amazing company, Ken. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks for having me, Dave and David. I greatly appreciate it. How about this? >>Right. Finally live event. We've done a few. We probably done four or five this year, but >>It's good to be back in person. It is. Yeah, absolutely. It's >>A Stripe. I mean, wow. Can a powering the new economy. Tell us a little bit more for those people who may not be familiar with Stripe. They probably use it without even knowing it when they sign it away. Yeah. So tell us about the >>Well, uh, Stripe was founded in 2010 by two brothers, Patrick and John Colson. And really it was from their first business and realizing how hard it was to actually charge for things on online. Um, you had to acquire a relationship with, uh, with a gateway provider to accept payments. You had to acquire a relationship with a, with a acquiring bank. Um, and you had to do that for each and every country that you wanted to service. Uh, so the same way that AWS reduced the barrier in terms of not having to procure, spend millions of dollars on storage, computers, networking, uh, effectively, what we we've done at Stripe is reduce the barriers around economic infrastructure, accepting payments online, >>Use that undifferentiated heavy lifting for payments. So describe Ken, what it was like kind of pre Stripe. You would literally have to install servers, get storage and put, put software on there, get a database. And then what if you had any money left over, you can actually do some business, but, but describe the sort of what the experience is like with Stripe. >>Sure. So, uh, the R R with, with Stripe, we literally talk about seven lines of code. So we, we allow any developer to, um, uh, provide a set of APIs for any developer to accept payments on online. And we do the undifferentiated heavy lifting in terms of accepting payments, accepting those payments, processing them revenue, reporting, and reconciliation, um, all ensuring compliance and security. Um, so it's like you said, uh, taking care of the undifferentiated heavy lifting are around accepting payments online in the enabling >>The enabler. There is the cloud. I mean, it was 2009, 2010. You guys were founded, the cloud was only like three years old. Right. And so you had to really sort of take a chance on leveraging the cloud or maybe early on you just installed it yourself and said, this isn't going to scale. So maybe tell us how you sort of leverage the cloud. >>Sure. Um, so we're a long time, uh, AWS, uh, customer and user, um, uh, back in the early days of, of Stripe in the early days of, of AWS. And we've just grown, uh, with, with AWS and the ecosystem. And it's interesting because a lot of, uh, a lot of the companies that have been built on, on AWS and grown to be successful, they're also Stripe customers as well. So they use Stripe for their economic infrastructure. >>We use Stripe, we run our company on AWS and we use Stripe. It it's true. The integration took like minutes. It was so simple. Hey it, test it, make sure it scales. But so what, what's the stack look like? What is there, is there such thing as a payment stack? What's the technology stuff? >>Sure. So we initially started with payments and being able to accept payments, uh, on online. Uh we've we brought in out our, our, our Stripe product portfolio now to effectively provide economic, uh, infrastructure for the internet. So that could be accepting payments. Uh, it could be setting up marketplaces. So companies like Lyft and Deliveroo, uh, use Stripe to power their marketplaces with their, with their drivers and, and, um, uh, delivers, um, uh, we provide, uh, a product called radar that, uh, that, um, prevents fraud, uh, around, around the globe. Um, based upon the data that we're seeing from our, from our customers, um, we have, uh, issuing and treasury so that companies can provide their users or their merchants with banking services. So loans, uh, issuing credit cards. So we we've really broadened out the product portfolio of Stripe to provide sort of economic infrastructure for the internet. So >>We talked about strike being in the cloud from an infrastructure perspective and how that enables certain things, but that in and of itself, doesn't change the dynamics around sovereignty and governance from country to country. Sure. Uh, I imagine that the global nature of AWS sort of dovetails with your strategy, but how, how do you address that? It's one thing to tell me in Northern California, you can process payments for me, but now globally go across 150 countries. How do you make that work? Yeah, >>Uh, absolutely. So we, we establish relationships, uh, within, within each company country that we operate in we're in about 47, uh, countries, uh, today, um, and that's rapidly expanding so that companies can, can process or accept payments and do, uh, financial transactions within, within, within those countries. So we're in 47 countries today. We, we accept a multitude of different payment, uh, different currencies, different payment types. So the U S is very, uh, credit card focused. But if you go to other, other parts of the globe, it could be a debit cards. It could be, um, uh, wallets, uh, uh, Google pay, Ali pay, uh, others. So really it's, uh, providing sort of the payment methods that users prefer in, in the different countries, uh, and meeting and meeting those users where, where they are. >>Are you out of the box compliant? What integration is required to do that? Uh, what about things like data sovereignty, is that taken care of by the cloud provider or you guys, and where, w w where does, where does AWS end and you guys pick up? Yes, >>We're, we're PCI compliant. Um, we, we leverage AWS as our, as our infrastructure, um, to grow, grow and scale. So, um, one of the things that we're, we're proud of is, uh, through, throughout 2020 and 2021, we've, we've had 11 nines of, uh, of, of, uh, or five nines of uptime, um, even through, um, uh, black Friday and cyber Monday. So providing AWS provides that, that infrastructure, which we built on top of to provide, uh, you know, five nines of uptime for our, for our users. >>You describe in more detail, Kenya, your ecosystem. I mean, you're responsible for tech partnerships. What does that ecosystem, how I paint a picture of it? >>Sure. So, um, uh, a number of users want to be able to use Stripe with, with their other, uh, it infrastructure and, and their business processes. So a customer may start, uh, with a salesperson may start with a quote or order, uh, in, in Salesforce, want to automate the invoicing and billing and payment of that with, with Stripe and then, uh, reconcile re revenue and an ERP solution like SAP or Oracle or NetSuite or into it, um, in the case of, of small, medium businesses. So really, um, what we're focused on is building out that, that ecosystem to allow, uh, um, our, our customers to streamline their business processes, um, and, and integrate Stripe into their existing it infrastructure and, and business processes. >>You mentioned a lot of different services, but broadly speaking, if I think about payments, correct me if I'm wrong, but you were one of the early, uh, sort of software companies, if I can call you that, um, platforms, whatever, but to really focus on a usage based pricing, but how do I, how do I engage with you? What's, what's the pricing model. Maybe you could describe that a little. >>Sure. So the pricing model is very, very transparent. Uh, it's on, it's on the website. So, uh, we, we take a, um, a percentage of each transaction. So literally you can, you can set up a, a Stripe account it's self-service, um, uh, we, we take a 2.9% plus 30 cents on every, uh, Tran transaction. Um, we don't, you don't start getting, um, uh, charged until, uh, you start accepting payments from your, from your customers or from your users. >>Um, can you give us a sense of the business scope, maybe any metrics you can share, customers, whatever. >>Sure. So there's a couple of things we can share publicly, just in terms of the size of the business. I think since, uh, since 2020, uh, more than 2 million businesses have launched on, on Stripe. Uh, so, uh, 2 million in, in, in, in 2020, um, we've, uh, uh, in the past 12 months, we've, uh, uh, uh, processed over 173 billion, uh, API calls. Uh, we do we process about, um, uh, hundreds of billions of, of, of, uh, payment volume, uh, every, every year. Um, if you look at sort of the macros of the business, the business is growing faster than the broader e-commerce space. So the amount of payment volume that we did in this past year is more than the entire industry did when Patrick and John founded the company. And in 2010, just to give you a, uh, an idea of the, the, the size of the business and sort of the pace of the business >>You're growing as e-commerce grows, but you're also stealing share from other sort of traditional payment systems. Okay. So that's a nice flywheel effect. And of course, Stripe's a private company they've raised well over a billion dollars of Peter teal, and it wasn't original founders, so are funders. So, you know, that's, he's talking scale. I want to go back to something you said about radar. Sure. So there's tech in your stack fraud detection, right. So some of >>That in machine learning, right. >>So, and so you guys, I mean, are you a technology company, are you a F a FinTech company? What are you? >>We're a software company. We provide software and we provide technology for developers, uh, to make online businesses and make, uh, uh, commerce, uh, more seamless and more frictionless >>Cloud-first API first. I mean, maybe describe how that is different maybe than, you know, the technical debt that's been built up over, you know, decades with traditional payment systems. >>Yes, it's very similar to the early, earlier days of AWS where a lot of tech forward companies leveraged Stripe, um, to, um, whether it be large enterprises to transform their businesses and move online, or, or, uh, uh, startups and developers that want to, uh, start a new business online and, and do that, uh, as quickly and seamlessly as possible. So it's, it's quite the gamut from large enterprises that are digitally transforming themselves companies like Marske and, and NASDAQ and others, as well as, uh, um, startups and developers that have started their businesses and born on born on Stripe. So >>When you talk about a startup, how small of an entity makes sense, uh, when you think of, if you look at, from an economic perspective, lowering the friction associated with transactions can lift up a large part of the world with sort of, you know, w with very, very small businesses. Is that something that this is all about? >>Yeah, absolutely. So, like I said, you know, two, 2 million business have sub launched on, on, on Stripe, uh, in, in the past year. And, and those businesses vary, but it could be literally a, a developer or a, uh, uh, a small, uh, SMB that wants to be able to accept payments on online. And it can just set up a Stripe account and start accepting payments. >>Yeah. So this is not a one hit wonder, um, lay out the vision for Stripe, right? I mean, you're, you're a platform, uh, you're, you're becoming a fundamental ingredient of the digital economy sounds pre pandemic. That was all a bunch of buzzwords, but today we all know how important that is, but what lay out the vision for us can, >>Yeah, it really are. The mission of Stripe is to grow the GDP of the internet. Um, and, and so what that means is, uh, more and more our, our, our basic belief is more and more and more businesses, uh, will, will, uh, go, go online, uh, with, uh, with the pandemic that that was, uh, accelerated. But I think that the general trend of businesses moving online, uh, will continue to accelerate, and we want to provide, uh, economic infrastructure to support those businesses. Um, you know, um, uh, uh, Andreessen talked about sort of software, software eating the world well fit. Our belief has FinTech is eating software. So in, in the fullness of time, I think the opportunity is for, uh, any, any company to be a financial services company. And we want to empower any company that wants to, or any user that wants to be a financial services company to, to provide the economic infrastructure for them to do so. >>And, and, you know, I mean your data company in that sense, you're moving bits around, you know, and those datas, I like to say data's eating software, you know, cause really you gotta have your data act together. Absolutely. And that's an evolving, I mean, you guys started to, to 2010, I would imagine your data strategy has evolved quite dramatically. Yeah. >>It's a great, it's a great call out Dave. Uh, one of our other products is a product called Sigma. So Sigma allows, uh, merchants or our customers to query payment and transaction data. So they want to be able to understand who, who, who are their customers, what are the payment methods that those customers prefer in different countries, in different regions? Um, so we're, we're starting to have some interesting use cases, um, working with, with AWS and other partners when you can start combining payment and transaction data in Stripe with other data to understand customer segmentation, customer 360 lifetime value of a customer customer acquisition costs, being able to close the books faster in your ERP, because you can apply that payment and transaction data to your general ledger to, to close the books faster at the end of the month or at the end of the, at the end of the year. So, uh, yeah, we we're, um, uh, as, as more and more companies are using Stripe, um, they want to be able to take advantage of that data and combine it with other, other sources of data to drive business. >>Yeah. You mentioned some of those key metrics that are, that are so important to companies today. I'll give you the last word re-invent this hall is packed, um, a little bit surprising, frankly, you know, but, uh, but exciting. Uh, what are you looking forward to this? >>Yeah, I'm just looking forward to meeting people in person again, it's, uh, it's great to be here and, and, you know, uh, uh, we have a strong relationship with AWS. We have lots of partners in, in, in common here, uh, as well, both consulting partners and technology partners. So really looking forward to meeting with partners and customers, and especially as we, as we plan for next year and, uh, launching our, our, our partner program beginning of next year. Uh, there's a lot of, uh, uh, groundwork and things to learn from, from here. As we, as we, we, we, we launch our, our, our partner business formula next >>I'll bet. Looking forward to that, Ken, thanks so much for coming to the cure. You so much. It was great to have a chat at the time. All right. And we want to thank our sponsors, uh, AWS, of course, and also AMD who's making the editorial segments that we bring you this week possible for Dave Nicholson. I'm Dave Volante. You're watching the cube at AWS reinvent 2021. Keep it right there, right back.

(upbeat music) >> On February 19th of this year, Barron's dropped an article declaring Oracle, a cloud giant and the article explained why the stock was a buy. Investors took notice and the stock ran up 18% over the next nine trading days and it peaked on March 9th, the day before Oracle announced its latest earnings. The company beat consensus earnings on both top-line and EPS last quarter, but investors, they did not like Oracle's tepid guidance and the stock pulled back. But it's still, as you can see, well above its pre-Barron's article price. What does all this mean? Is Oracle a cloud giant? What are its growth prospects? Now many parts of Oracle's business are growing including Fusion ERP, Fusion HCM, NetSuite, we're talking deep into the double digits, 20 plus percent growth. It's OnPrem legacy licensed business however, continues to decline and that moderates, the overall company growth because that OnPrem business is so large. So the overall Oracle's growing in the low single digits. Now what stands out about Oracle is it's recurring revenue model. That figure, the company says now it represents 73% of its revenue and that's going to continue to grow. Now two other things stood out on the earnings call to us. First, Oracle plans on increasing its CapEX by 50% in the coming quarter, that's a lot. Now it's still far less than AWS Google or Microsoft Spend on capital but it's a meaningful data point. Second Oracle's consumption revenue for Autonomous Database and Cloud Infrastructure, OCI or Oracle Cloud Infrastructure grew at 64% and 139% respectively and these two factors combined with the CapEX Spend suggest that the company has real momentum. I mean look, it's possible that the CapEx announcements maybe just optics in they're front loading, some spend to show the street that it's a player in cloud but I don't think so. Oracle's Safra Catz's usually pretty disciplined when it comes to it's spending. Now today on March 17th, Oracle announced updates towards Autonomous Data Warehouse and with me is David Floyer who has extensively researched Oracle over the years and today we're going to unpack the Oracle Autonomous Data Warehouse, ADW announcement. What it means to customers but we also want to dig into Oracle's strategy. We want to compare it to some other prominent database vendors specifically, AWS and Snowflake. David Floyer, Welcome back to The Cube, thanks for making some time for me. >> Thank you Vellante, great pleasure to be here. >> All right, I want to get into the news but I want to start with this idea of the autonomous database which Oracle's announcement today is building on. Oracle uses the analogy of a self-driving car. It's obviously powerful metaphor as they call it the self-driving database and my takeaway is that, this means that the system automatically provisions, it upgrades, it does all the patching for you, it tunes itself. Oracle claims that all reduces labor costs or admin costs by 90%. So I ask you, is this the right interpretation of what Oracle means by autonomous database? And is it real? >> Is that the right interpretation? It's a nice analogy. It's a test to that analogy, isn't it? I would put it as the first stage of the Autonomous Data Warehouse was to do the things that you talked about, which was the tuning, the provisioning, all of that sort of thing. The second stage is actually, I think more interesting in that what they're focusing on is making it easy to use for the end user. Eliminating the requirement for IT, staff to be there to help in the actual using of it and that is a very big step for them but an absolutely vital step because all of the competition focusing on ease of use, ease of use, ease of use and cheapness of being able to manage and deploy. But, so I think that is the really important area that Oracle has focused on and it seemed to have done so very well. >> So in your view, is this, I mean you don't really hear a lot of other companies talking about this analogy of the self-driving database, is this unique? Is it differentiable for Oracle? If so, why, or maybe you could help us understand that a little bit better. >> Well, the whole strategy is unique in its breadth. It has really brought together a whole number of things together and made it of its type the best. So it has a single, whole number of data sources and database types. So it's got a very broad range of different ways that you can look at the data and the second thing that is also excellent is it's a platform. It is fully self provisioned and its functionality is very, very broad indeed. The quality of the original SQL and the query languages, etc, is very, very good indeed and it's a better agent to do joints for example, is excellent. So all of the building blocks are there and together with it's sharing of the same data with OLTP and inference and in memory data paces as well. All together the breadth of what they have is unique and very, very powerful. >> I want to come back to this but let's get into the news a little bit and the announcement. I mean, it seems like what's new in the autonomous data warehouse piece for Oracle's new tooling around four areas that so Andy Mendelsohn, the head of this group instead of the guy who releases his baby, he talked about four things. My takeaway, faster simpler loads, simplified transforms, autonomous machine learning models which are facilitating, What do you call it? Citizen data science and then faster time to insights. So tooling to make those four things happen. What's your take and takeaways on the news? >> I think those are all correct. I would add the ease of use in terms of being able to drag and drop, the user interface has been dramatically improved. Again, I think those, strategically are actually more important that the others are all useful and good components of it but strategically, I think is more important. There's ease of use, the use of apex for example, are more important. And, >> Why are they more important strategically? >> Because they focus on the end users capability. For example, one of other things that they've started to introduce is Python together with their spatial databases, for example. That is really important that you reach out to the developer as they are and what tools they want to use. So those type of ease of use things, those types of things are respecting what the end users use. For example, they haven't come out with anything like click or Tableau. They've left that there for that marketplace for the end user to use what they like best. >> Do you mean, they're not trying to compete with those two tools. They indeed had a laundry list of stuff that they supported, Talend, Tableau, Looker, click, Informatica, IBM, I had IBM there. So their claim was, hey, we're open. But so that's smart. That's just, hey, they realized that people use these tools. >> I'm trying to exclude other people, be a platform and be an ecosystem for the end users. >> Okay, so Mendelsohn who made the announcement said that Oracle's the smartphone of databases and I think, I actually think Alison kind of used that or maybe that was us planing to have, I thought he did like the iPhone of when he announced the exit data way back when the integrated hardware and software but is that how you see it, is Oracle, the smartphone of databases? >> It is, I mean, they are trying to own the complete stack, the hardware with the exit data all the way up to the databases at the data warehouses and the OLTP databases, the inference databases. They're trying to own the complete stack from top to bottom and that's what makes autonomy process possible. You can make it autonomous when you control all of that. Take away all of the requirements for IT in the business itself. So it's democratizing the use of data warehouses. It is pushing it out to the lines of business and it's simplifying it and making it possible to push out so that they can own their own data. They can manage their own data and they do not need an IT person from headquarters to help them. >> Let's stay in this a little bit more and then I want to go into some of the competitive stuff because Mendelsohn mentioned AWS several times. One of the things that struck me, he said, hey, we're basically one API 'cause we're doing analytics in the cloud, we're doing data in the cloud, we're doing integration in the cloud and that's sort of a big part of the value proposition. He made some comparisons to Redshift. Of course, I would say, if you can't find a workload where you beat your big competitor then you shouldn't be in this business. So I take those things with a grain of salt but one of the other things that caught me is that migrating from OnPrem to Oracle, Oracle Cloud was very simple and I think he might've made some comparisons to other platforms. And this to me is important because he also brought in that Gartner data. We looked at that Gardner data when they came out with it in the operational database class, Oracle smoked everybody. They were like way ahead and the reason why I think that's important is because let's face it, the Mission Critical Workloads, when you look at what's moving into AWS, the Mission Critical Workloads, the high performance, high criticality OLTP stuff. That's not moving in droves and you've made the point often that companies with their own cloud particularly, Oracle you've mentioned this about IBM for certain, DB2 for instance, customers are going to, there should be a lower risk environment moving from OnPrem to their cloud, because you could do, I don't think you could get Oracle RAC on AWS. For example, I don't think EXIF data is running in AWS data centers and so that like component is going to facilitate migration. What's your take on all that spiel? >> I think that's absolutely right. You all crown Jewels, the most expensive and the most valuable applications, the mission-critical applications. The ones that have got to take a beating, keep on taking. So those types of applications are where Oracle really shines. They own a very large high percentage of those Mission Critical Workloads and you have the choice if you're going to AWS, for example of either migrating to Oracle on AWS and that is frankly not a good fit at all. There're a lot of constraints to running large systems on AWS, large mission critical systems. So that's not an option and then the option, of course, that AWS will push is move to a Roller, change your way of writing applications, make them tiny little pieces and stitch them all together with microservices and that's okay if you're a small organization but that has got a lot of problems in its own, right? Because then you, the user have to stitch all those pieces together and you're responsible for testing it and you're responsible for looking after it. And that as you grow becomes a bigger and bigger overhead. So AWS, in my opinion needs to have a move towards a tier-one database of it's own and it's not in that position at the moment. >> Interesting, okay. So, let's talk about the competitive landscape and the choices that customers have. As I said, Mendelssohn mentioned AWS many times, Larry on the calls often take shy, it's a compliment to me. When Larry Ellison calls you out, that means you've made it, you're doing well. We've seen it over the years, whether it's IBM or Workday or Salesforce, even though Salesforce's big Oracle customer 'cause AWS, as we know are Oracle customer as well, even though AWS tells us they've off called when you peel the onion >> Five years should be great, some of the workers >> Well, as I said, I believe they're still using Oracle in certain workloads. Way, way, we digress. So AWS though, they take a different approach and I want to push on this a little bit with database. It's got more than a dozen, I think purpose-built databases. They take this kind of right tool for the right job approach was Oracle there converging all this function into a single database. SQL JSON graph databases, machine learning, blockchain. I'd love to talk about more about blockchain if we have time but seems to me that the right tool for the right job purpose-built, very granular down to the primitives and APIs. That seems to me to be a pretty viable approach versus kind of a Swiss Army approach. How do you compare the two? >> Yes, and it is to many initial programmers who are very interested for example, in graph databases or in time series databases. They are looking for a cheap database that will do the job for a particular project and that makes, for the program or for that individual piece of work is making a very sensible way of doing it and they pay for ads on it's clear cloud dynamics. The challenge as you have more and more data and as you're building up your data warehouse in your data lakes is that you do not want to have to move data from one place to another place. So for example, if you've got a Roller,, you have to move the database and it's a pretty complicated thing to do it, to move it to Redshift. It's a five or six steps to do that and each of those costs money and each of those take time. More importantly, they take time. The Oracle approach is a single database in terms of all the pieces that obviously you have multiple databases you have different OLTP databases and data warehouse databases but as a single architecture and a single design which means that all of the work in terms of moving stuff from one place to another place is within Oracle itself. It's Oracle that's doing that work for you and as you grow, that becomes very, very important. To me, very, very important, cost saving. The overhead of all those different ones and the databases themselves originate with all as open source and they've done very well with it and then there's a large revenue stream behind the, >> The AWS, you mean? >> Yes, the original database is in AWS and they've done a lot of work in terms of making it set with the panels, etc. But if a larger organization, especially very large ones and certainly if they want to combine, for example data warehouse with the OLTP and the inference which is in my opinion, a very good thing that they should be trying to do then that is incredibly difficult to do with AWS and in my opinion, AWS has to invest enormously in to make the whole ecosystem much better. >> Okay, so innovation required there maybe is part of the TAM expansion strategy but just to sort of digress for a second. So it seems like, and by the way, there are others that are doing, they're taking this converged approach. It seems like that is a trend. I mean, you certainly see it with single store. I mean, the name sort of implies that formerly MemSQL I think Monte Zweben of splice machine is probably headed in a similar direction, embedding AI in Microsoft's, kind of interesting. It seems like Microsoft is willing to build this abstraction layer that hides that complexity of the different tooling. AWS thus far has not taken that approach and then sort of looking at Snowflake, Snowflake's got a completely different, I think Snowflake's trying to do something completely different. I don't think they're necessarily trying to take Oracle head-on. I mean, they're certainly trying to just, I guess, let's talk about this. Snowflake simplified EDW, that's clear. Zero to snowflake in 90 minutes. It's got this data cloud vision. So you sign on to this Snowflake, speaking of layers they're abstracting the complexity of the underlying cloud. That's what the data cloud vision is all about. They, talk about this Global Mesh but they've not done a good job of explaining what the heck it is. We've been pushing them on that, but we got, >> Aspiration of moment >> Well, I guess, yeah, it seems that way. And so, but conceptually, it's I think very powerful but in reality, what snowflake is doing with data sharing, a lot of reading it's probably mostly read-only and I say, mostly read-only, oh, there you go. You'll get better but it's mostly read and so you're able to share the data, it's governed. I mean, it's exactly, quite genius how they've implemented this with its simplicity. It is a caching architecture. We've talked about that, we can geek out about that. There's good, there's bad, there's ugly but generally speaking, I guess my premise here I would love your thoughts. Is snowflakes trying to do something different? It's trying to be not just another data warehouse. It's not just trying to compete with data lakes. It's trying to create this data cloud to facilitate data sharing, put data in the hands of business owners in terms of a product build, data product builders. That's a different vision than anything I've seen thus far, your thoughts. >> I agree and even more going further, being a place where people can sell data. Put it up and make it available to whoever needs it and making it so simple that it can be shared across the country and across the world. I think it's a very powerful vision indeed. The challenge they have is that the pieces at the moment are very, very easy to use but the quality in terms of the, for example, joints, I mentioned, the joints were very powerful in Oracle. They don't try and do joints. They, they say >> They being Snowflake, snowflake. Yeah, they don't even write it. They would say use another Postgres >> Yeah. >> Database to do that. >> Yeah, so then they have a long way to go. >> Complex joints anyway, maybe simple joints, yeah. >> Complex joints, so they have a long way to go in terms of the functionality of their product and also in my opinion, they sure be going to have more types of databases inside it, including OLTP and they can do that. They have obviously got a great market gap and they can do that by acquisition as well as they can >> They've started. I think, I think they support JSON, right. >> Do they support JSON? And graph, I think there's a graph database that's either coming or it's there, I can't keep all that stuff in my head but there's no reason they can't go in that direction. I mean, in speaking to the founders in Snowflake they were like, look, we're kind of new. We would focus on simple. A lot of them came from Oracle so they know all database and they know how hard it is to do things like facilitate complex joints and do complex workload management and so they said, let's just simplify, we'll put it in the cloud and it will spin up a separate data warehouse. It's a virtual data warehouse every time you want one to. So that's how they handle those things. So different philosophy but again, coming back to some of the mission critical work and some of the larger Oracle customers, they said they have a thousand autonomous database customers. I think it was autonomous database, not ADW but anyway, a few stood out AON, lift, I think Deloitte stood out and as obviously, hundreds more. So we have people who misunderstand Oracle, I think. They got a big install base. They invest in R and D and they talk about lock-in sure but the CIO that I talked to and you talked to David, they're looking for business value. I would say that 75 to 80% of them will gravitate toward business value over the fear of lock-in and I think at the end of the day, they feel like, you know what? If our business is performing, it's a better business decision, it's a better business case. >> I fully agree, they've been very difficult to do business with in the past. Everybody's in dread of the >> The audit. >> The knock on the door from the auditor. >> Right. >> And that from a purchasing point of view has been really bad experience for many, many customers. The users of the database itself are very happy indeed. I mean, you talk to them and they understand why, what they're paying for. They understand the value and in terms of availability and all of the tools for complex multi-dimensional types of applications. It's pretty well, the only game in town. It's only DB2 and SQL that had any hope of doing >> Doing Microsoft, Microsoft SQL, right. >> Okay, SQL >> Which, okay, yeah, definitely competitive for sure. DB2, no IBM look, IBM lost its dominant position in database. They kind of seeded that. Oracle had to fight hard to win it. It wasn't obvious in the 80s who was going to be the database King and all had to fight. And to me, I always tell people the difference is that the chairman of Oracle is also the CTO. They spend money on R and D and they throw off a ton of cash. I want to say something about, >> I was just going to make one extra point. The simplicity and the capability of their cloud versions of all of this is incredibly good. They are better in terms of spending what you need or what you use much better than AWS, for example or anybody else. So they have really come full circle in terms of attractiveness in a cloud environment. >> You mean charging you for what you consume. Yeah, Mendelsohn talked about that. He made a big point about the granularity, you pay for only what you need. If you need 33 CPUs or the other databases you've got to shape, if you need 33, you've got to go to 64. I know that's true for everyone. I'm not sure if that's true too for snowflake. It may be, I got to dig into that a little bit, but maybe >> Yes, Snowflake has got a front end to hiding behind. >> Right, but I didn't want to push it that a little bit because I want to go look at their pricing strategies because I still think they make you buy, I may be wrong. I thought they make you still do a one-year or two-year or three-year term. I don't know if you can just turn it off at any time. They might allow, I should hold off. I'll do some more research on that but I wanted to make a point about the audits, you mentioned audits before. A big mistake that a lot of Oracle customers have made many times and we've written about this, negotiating with Oracle, you've got to bring your best and your brightest when you negotiate with Oracle. Some of the things that people didn't pay attention to and I think they've sort of caught onto this is that Oracle's SOW is adjudicate over the MSA, a lot of legal departments and procurement department. Oh, do we have an MSA? With all, Yes, you do, okay, great and because they think the MSA, they then can run. If they have an MSA, they can rubber stamp it but the SOW really dictateS and Oracle's gotcha there and they're really smart about that. So you got to bring your best and the brightest and you've got to really negotiate hard with Oracle, you get trouble. >> Sure. >> So it is what it is but coming back to Oracle, let's sort of wrap on this. Dominant position in mission critical, we saw that from the Gartner research, especially for operational, giant customer base, there's cloud-first notion, there's investing in R and D, open, we'll put a question Mark around that but hey, they're doing some cool stuff with Michael stuff. >> Ecosystem, I put that, ecosystem they're promoting their ecosystem. >> Yeah, and look, I mean, for a lot of their customers, we've talked to many, they say, look, there's actually, a tail at the tail way, this saves us money and we don't have to migrate. >> Yeah. So interesting, so I'll give you the last word. We started sort of focusing on the announcement. So what do you want to leave us with? >> My last word is that there are platforms with a certain key application or key parts of the infrastructure, which I think can differentiate themselves from the Azures or the AWS. and Oracle owns one of those, SAP might be another one but there are certain platforms which are big enough and important enough that they will, in my opinion will succeed in that cloud strategy for this. >> Great, David, thanks so much, appreciate your insights. >> Good to be here. Thank you for watching everybody, this is Dave Vellante for The Cube. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> SaaS companies have been some of the strongest performers in this COVID era. They finally took a bit of a breather this month, but they remain generally well-positioned for the next several years with their predictable models and cloud platforms. Meanwhile, the demise of on-prem legacy players from COVID shock, seems to have been overstated, in part because of the return of the laptop and in the case of Oracle with some see as a cloud play, Hmm. Then there's Bitcoin which is seeing public companies use their balance sheet liquidity to invest in the cryptocurrency. (chuckles) Wow. What does that all mean? I'll leave that for another day. Hello everyone and welcome to this week on Cube insights powered by ETR. On this breaking analysis, we'll pick out some of the more recent themes from this month and share our thoughts in some major enterprise software players, the future of on-prem, a review of our take on cloud and what cloud will look like in the 2020s. Wow. It's true, trees really don't grow to the moon. As predicted, the stock market has been a little bit crazy this month. February saw some leading SaaS names like Workday, Salesforce, and ServiceNow take a bit of a breather in the second half of the month. Workday and Salesforce announced earnings on the 25th. Workday had its first billion dollar subscription revenue quarter at 16% revenue growth a revenue and earnings beat. And of course the stock closed down Friday, more than 2%. Salesforce had a nearly $6 billion revenue quarter 20% growth, a revenue and earnings beat. And the day after it announced earnings the stock was down more than 6%. The market is worried about rising interest rates, and maybe concerned that an inflation fears are going to kill the stimulus bill. And so any whiff of caution by company managements is met with dampened enthusiasm. Meanwhile, it's looking like some of the big on-prem legacy firms, notably Dell, HPQ and HPE are making it through COVID, and might even come out in the other side stronger maybe. Dell handily beat expectations on the 25th on the strength of 17% growth in its client business. That's PCs. It's the gift that keeps on giving. HPQ had a strong beat as well, and we're anticipating a solid quarter from HPE next week on March 2nd. And then there's Oracle. Barron's had a big article on February 19th, entitled, "Oracle is turning into a cloud giant and why it's stock is a buy". It moved the market. And many investors rotated out of growth stocks, tech growth tech stocks into Oracle, others who had owned Oracle for a while scooped up some profits. Is Oracle a cloud giant? Hmm. We'll discuss that in a moment. And then there's all this Bitcoin mania. You know, our interest there is much more beyond the price fluctuations rather we're interested in the innovations in crypto. Look, we're going to table this for another day, but it's an interesting side note of this February madness. Let's take a look closer look at the February chill for SaaS companies. Here's a chart showing the relative performance of some of the big SaaS names in the latter half of this month. Now despite the strong earnings for Workday and Salesforce you can see the market's negative response on the 26th. Snowflake and ServiceNow they had epic runs last year, and they've been softening although on Friday morning ServiceNow shut down quickly on the open on sympathy with Workday and ServiceNow and then investors, you know, came back in. Very weird action in the market these days, again, not surprising. And look at the reaction investors had to the Barron's article on the 19th. They anointed Oracle as a cloud giant. Kudos to the Oracle PR team for that one. Now, let's take a look at these companies and put them in context. Even though they're not direct competitors it's instructive to model some of the top enterprise software players in positions, and line them up against each other. This chart here shows two dimensions from the ETR data. On the vertical axis is net score or customer spending momentum. And the horizontal axis is market share or pervasiveness in the survey. The table inset shows the net score measurement in the shared end. That's the metric that plots the dots. In both cases bigger is better. Note, that red dotted-line there is the 40% line. 40% to us is the magic number. Anything above that line is considered elevated. So we have ServiceNow and Salesforce they're up to the right. They're both big companies. They have significant market presence amongst the CIO and both have elevated spending velocity in the 50% range. And I've said for years, these two companies are on a collision course and I stand by that. It started happening and McDermott Bill McDermott, new CEO he's going to accelerate that in our view. We put a cloud around Snowflake tongue in cheek, because they are literally in the clouds on this chart. They stand alone, with a solid market presence that continues to grow in an off the charts net score of 83.3% now. For context you can see Oracle Fusion, NetSuite and Taleo. In addition, we put Slack and Coupa on the graphic, two names that have been on the radar lately and SAP, which continues to show decent spending momentum despite its challenges. All right, let me make a few comments on some of these companies. Snowflake, we've talked about a lot. I said earlier that their IPO, that if you really wanted to own it and couldn't wait for a better price, which I thought you'd get. And by the way you did, but then if you really wanted to own it on day one hold your nose and buy it and then wait a few years. So, you know, good luck. And I think you'll, it'll turn out okay for you. Now, the data really continues to show strong demand for Snowflake. There's no signs of them slowing down. So they announced earnings on March 3rd. We didn't have more data there. So we would expect confirmation of our analysis but you never know. Now Workday, here's our take. In our view the market is catching up to Workday. They had about a three-year lead at least in human capital management and the cloud and that whole model. And they had the best product. It was really simple and it was quite disruptive. But now you got Oracle, ADP, Ceridian they're catching up. Workday's expansion into financial management has been much more challenging and as it gets bigger, things get tougher. It's still though an enduring name. Salesforce, we see a bit differently. Salesforce is so big now, it's really hard for it to move the needle. And so it's been on an acquisition binge, and to grow that's likely going to continue. It could work well for the company. I mean, similar to the ways in which Oracle consolidated software names and picked up a lot of customers. Salesforce is a great name, and we think is going to continue to grow. ServiceNow is interesting. It's entering a new chapter under CEO, Bill McDermott, new CEO. He wants to double the company's revenue. And I think he's got a reasonable chance at that through a combination of great go-to-market and expanding the platform and in McDermott style doing acquisitions. SAP's market value tripled under his watch, and he knows the customers. And he's a magnet for attracting talent. Now ServiceNow is not without its challenges. Its customers often complain that ServiceNow is pricing is really high and it's becoming the Oracle of service management. But as McDermott aims more at SAP and Oracle customers, they create a nice umbrella for ServiceNow to work with. And technically, we think ServiceNow has other challenges around its multi-instance. We call it, if you can't fix it feature it architecture. That may present some issues down the road at scale. We don't have time to go into that in detail but suffice it to say that ServiceNow runs on its own cloud. So it's not running on a hyper scale cloud. Yeah. Good news it doesn't have to pay it through that. The bad news is, has got to manage all that infrastructure. It's basically be a cloud supply supplier but it doesn't do multi-tenant which means fundamentally, it has a more expensive cost structure. Okay. Let's turn our attention to what's happening on-prem with some of the big legacy names. Here's the same X Y chart with some of the big names that have a presence on-prem. First you can see VMware and Cisco, Oracle, Dell, IBM and HP. Look at them on the horizontal scale. They've got a large market share of presence in the ETR dataset. Unlike the larger SaaS companies however, none is above that magic 40% net scoreline. Pure, Dell's laptop business, Red Hat, OpenShift. They're above the line with Nutanix just about there at the line. The other major laptop players, Lenovo and HPQ showing momentum from the whole remote work trend. And for context, we put in NetApp so you can get a sense of where they're at. Pure beat its earnings last week but only grew 2% last quarter. Now remember the ETR survey, this is a forward-looking survey. So this potentially bodes well for the companies that are above that 40% line. Okay. So most so sorry of the companies on this chart only IBM and Oracle, those two own a public cloud. And we'll dig further into that in a moment, but virtually every name shown here, even Oracle has a mandate to redefine cloud. Meaning it has to put forth in our view in North star vision and execute on it. That will unify the experience between on-prem, hybrid cloud, public clouds, cross clouds and the edge. Now I say even Oracle, because in my view, Oracle is in a stronger position than the others, because of it's more coherent software architecture. Now the other companies on this chart, they have to architect a platform that abstracts the underlying complexity of clouds, leverage cloud native tooling in the respective public clouds. Connect on-prem infrastructure and build a layer, that stretches out and accommodates edge workloads. I think Oracle will follow suit and is actually ahead of most in a narrower context, i.e hybrid. But it doesn't have to race toward this vision. It can sit back as it often does, watch everyone else fumble around and make mistakes. And then Oracle will keep investing in R&D, watch the market, you know make its own experimental mistakes, and then enter the market and act like we invented it. Now, Cisco will come at this from a strong networking and security perspective. And it has a nice story on programmable infrastructure with Cisco DevNet. But unfortunately it does not own VMware as does Dell, but Dell is in the middle of a fairly remarkable journey. And it will be interesting to see what happens with the VMware spin-out and the cozy commercial relationship that Dell is structuring with VMware as you know, and as we've reported, Dell has used VMware's cash for a lot of this restructuring. And so we'll see, as it exits the current phase and enters a new phase, how it will be able to pursue that vision. It's going to be, whatever it does it's going to be much different than that vertically integrated Oracle approach, which of course brings me to IBM. Potentially Red Hat with OpenShift is the most powerful card in the deck right now. OpenShift I mean, it's open it's everywhere. It has momentum as we showed. And I like their position. My concern is IBM, IBM is still unwinding and restructuring its business. And it's taking a long time as we've seen, with its outsourcing business. And now the Watson health assets, Irvine is continuing that downsizing trend that we saw under Ginny, shedding non-strategic businesses that don't fit, Irvine has a lot to deal with. And I want to point out that this idea of an abstraction layer across clouds is not trivial. First, all of these companies have to stop being so defensive about the public cloud. To a large extent, VMware and Red Hat have found a happy place. But in my view, they all should be thanking AWS, Azure, and Google for building out this great global distributed system, that they can leverage and build on top of. And second, this is going to be expensive. And Cisco, Dell VMware, IBM, they're all really stretched thin from an R&D perspective. They a lot of mouths to feed across the portfolio. So is HPE stretched thin, and it doesn't have the R&D budget at less than $2 billion annually. So my concern is that we're going to have lots of complexity across these obstructions layers by vendor. Now maybe the good news for companies. This may be good news for companies like Hashi or specialists with a vision to do this within a domain like a clumial, or a vast data, but this is big, and they are small. So it's going to take the better part of a decade to play out. Now, let's take a quick look at the cloud players. OMG when I saw that article in Barron's last weekend my mouth dropped. What a headline and it had this illustration of a stout Larry Ellison rising above the clouds. Here's a picture of the ETR data for the cloud players. It's the same X, Y plotting or net score and market share. If you follow this program, you know we believe there are four and only four hyper scale cloud players, with the resources to compete and differentiate as horizontal infrastructure players, which really is how we view the origination of modern cloud computing. AWS created it with S3 and EC2 with 2006. Those four are AWS and Azure, which have a large lead over the pack. Google cloud and Alibaba. And you can see we've circled the on-prem pack which comprises Oracle and IBM along with Dell VMware. And we snuck Google just stuck them at the edge of that circle because the differentiate they're cozying up to companies with strong enterprise sales teams and Google's, they're smart, they're patient. And so we, by no means, count them out. They're spending like mad and they have a lot of cash. They've done some really interesting open source things with containers. And so, you know, no doubt they're a player, but they are behind. Now in that on-prem pack, IBM and Oracle they actually own their own public clouds. IBM, they acquired soft layer which was a bare metal hosting company at the time to get IBM into the game. They retooled the platform over several years. Now here's the thing, try and unpack IBM's cloud business looking at its financial or in earnings reports. It's just a mess. I hope Irvine cuts the nonsense and actually develops and reports a set of metrics that are meaningful to cloud observers and IBM observers, because the way IBM reports its cloud business today is opaque and it's nonsense. It's frankly embarrassing to the company. It needs to end sooner rather than later is fundamentally meaningless to any observers. Now observers of cloud. If you care about the big chunk of whatever then maybe it has meaning. Now Oracle for its part, they announced the public cloud years ago, its version of one datto cloud was crap. And the company, they hired a bunch of really smart cloud engineers and they spent a lot of money to fix that. Now neither IBM nor Oracle have the CapEx resources of the big four, not even close, yet they'll build out data centers and yes they'll have a play, but they're different and that's okay. Now in the Barron's article on Oracle, the author was quite positive on Oracle, noting that quote, "On a recent earnings call CEO Safra Catz said that Oracle cloud infrastructure revenue was up 139% for the quarter". So, (laughs) we have really no sense or a stake in the ground is to up from what? Anyway, noting further the author said, quote, "Alas! Oracle doesn't break out OCI sales and comps can be messy". Hmm, indeed. Oracle is hiding the ball on OCI, that's because if they did break it out, which by the way they used to report, AIS revenue explicitly, but if they did break it out, they would only be highlighting that they are a minor player in AIS. Further, the article continues, quote, "Catz says that hers is the only tech company that has both a global cloud and a full set of enterprise applications". Unquote, bingo. There it is. That's why Oracle is in a better position than many of or most of the on-prem players listed in this chart. By the way, I would argue that Microsoft has a pretty impressive set of enterprise applications in a fairly global cloud. But what Safra is talking about is applications that support the world's most mission critical work. And when it comes to that, Oracle is number one. Don't fool yourself and get caught up in the Oracle lock-in and high pricing narrative, thinking that they're going to get crushed. They're not. Oracle is the best in the mission critical workload game. There is no one better, period. But guys, come on. The big four last year grew 41% and accounted for $86 billion in AIS revenue, AKA real cloud revenue. And they're going to surpass $115 billion this year combined. Real cloud companies don't grow in the single digits today. So talk to me when we reach equilibrium on that front. Okay. So let's wrap by looking at what does a cloud company look like in the 2020s? Now, I'm not saying that the rest of the pack shouldn't redefine cloud they should. But I hope we can all agree by now that modern day cloud computing was defined in business terms by AWS. They are number one in cloud computing, make no mistake. However, AWS is bringing the cloud into the wheelhouse of the on-prem players, cleverly saying that it's bringing AWS to the edge and it looks at the data centers. Just another edge node is great positioning but that is not trivial. Just look it out posts and how AWS has had to evolve its pricing strategy in terms, can't just turn it off like you can, the public cloud. I have an entire rant on all the, SaaS service transformations. It's really interesting to watch as AWS goes out, and the on-prem players come in and go hybrid. I got a lot of thought on what's happening there both in terms of SaaS, which I think is an outdated pricing model, and the infrastructure as a service players that are really getting into this game, we would love to do a session on that sometime. And it's a real disruption I think coming. Anyway, AWS competitors should absolutely try to redefine cloud. By AWS moving to the edge, it's opened up the door to that possibility. Microsoft is obviously in the best position I think by far here. They've earned the right and I'll never accuse them of cloud washing. Google, they got some work to do in this regard, but they probably have the largest physical cloud infrastructure in the world. As I've said, they just need to pull their heads out of their ads and quadruple down on cloud. But this idea of abstracting away the underlying complexity of the cloud, leveraging cloud native capabilities and building on top of the shoulders of the cloud giants such as David Floyer has expressed in this chart, moving from stateless to state full, integrating across clouds, advancing automation not only through the stack, but across domains and ultimately using metadata to govern where workloads should live or be moved, be disintegrated and recombined with low latency and be highly secured. I look at this, I think about this and I say one there is this technically feasible and smart techies tell me yes, so I keep trying to dig here for signs and I definitely see some movement in this direction. And two, I don't think any one vendor is going to do this themselves. They're not going to, it's not going to be owned by one company. I think what's going to happen is you'll get successes within layers of the stack. I mean, think about Snowflakes data cloud. We're going to see that for storage. See it for backup, data management, security maybe security within different domains. You see endpoint and identity access management. Maybe that cloud comes together as cloud security. You see it in applications, but without clear standards, it's going to be a challenge. And with respect to my friends at Snowflake, we might even see it in database sometime LOL, but look you all have a lot of work to do. And to my CIO friends, you know the drill much better than I, technology is going to keep relentlessly coming at you and you can deal with that. It's the people and the change management in the culture. Those are your bigger challenges, but don't screw up the tech. Okay. Thanks for watching. Remember, these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen, just search breaking analysis podcasts, and please subscribe to the series, we appreciate that. Check out ETR's website at ETR.plus sorry, ETR.plus. We also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can email me at David.Vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me on Twitter at DVellante that's @DVellante or comment, excuse me on my LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Stay safe, be well, get the jab if you have an opportunity. And we'll see you next time. (soft music)

(gentle music) >> From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCube Conversation. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante, we're back at Cube on Cloud, and with me is Muddu Sudhakar. He's a long time alum of theCube, a technologist and executive, a serial entrepreneur and an investor. Welcome my friend, good to see you. >> Good to see you, Dave. Pleasure to be with you. Happy elections, I guess. >> Yeah, yeah. So I wanted to start, this work from home, pivot's been amazing, and you've seen the enterprise collaboration explode. I wrote a piece a couple months ago, looking at valuations of various companies, right around the snowflake IPO, I want to ask you about that, but I was looking at the valuations of various companies, at Spotify, and Shopify, and of course Zoom was there. And I was looking at just simple revenue multiples, and I said, geez, Zoom actually looks, might look undervalued, which is crazy, right? And of course the stock went up after that, and you see teams, Microsoft Teams, and Microsoft doing a great job across the board, we've written about that, you're seeing Webex is exploding, I mean, what do you make of this whole enterprise collaboration play? >> No, I think the look there is a trend here, right? So I think this probably trend started before COVID, but COVID is going to probably accelerate this whole digital transformation, right? People are going to work remotely a lot more, not everybody's going to come back to the offices even after COVID, so I think this whole collaboration through Slack, and Zoom, and Microsoft Teams and Webex, it's going to be the new game now, right? Both the video, audio and chat solutions, that's really going to help people like eyeballs. You're not going to spend time on all four of them, right? It's like everyday from a consumer side, you're going to spend time on your Gmail, Facebook, maybe Twitter, maybe Instagram, so like in the consumer side, on your personal life, you have something on the enterprise. The eyeballs are going to be in these platforms. >> Yeah. Well. >> But we're not going to take everything. >> Well, So you are right, there's a permanence to this, and I got a lot of ground to cover with you. And I always like our conversations mood because you tell it like it is, I'm going to stay on that work from home pivot. You know a lot about security, but you've seen three big trends, like mega trends in security, Endpoint, Identity Access Management, and Cloud Security, you're seeing this in the stock prices of companies like CrowdStrike, Zscaler, Okta- >> Right >> Sailpoint- >> Right, I mean, they exploded, as a result of the pandemic, and I think I'm inferring from your comment that you see that as permanent, but that's a real challenge from a security standpoint. What's the impact of Cloud there? >> No, it isn't impact but look, first is all the services required to be Cloud, right? See, the whole ideas for it to collaborate and do these things. So you cannot be running an application, like you can't be running conference and SharePoint oN-Prem, and try to on a Zoom and MS teams. So that's why, if you look at Microsoft is very clever, they went with Office 365, SharePoint 365, now they have MS Teams, so I think that Cloud is going to drive all these workloads that you have been talking about a lot, right? You and John have been saying this for years now. The eruption of Cloud and SAS services are the vehicle to drive this next-generation collaboration. >> You know what's so cool? So Cloud obviously is the topic, I wonder how you look at the last 10 years of Cloud, and maybe we could project forward, I mean the big three Cloud vendors, they're running it like $20 billion a quarter, and they're growing collectively, 35, 40% clips, so we're really approaching a hundred billion dollars for these three. And you hear stats like only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, so it feels like we're just getting started. How do you look at the impact of Cloud on the market, as you say, the last 10 years, and what do you expect going forward? >> No, I think it's very fascinating, right? So I remember when theCube, you guys are talking about 10 years back, now it's been what? More than 10 years, 15 years, since AWS came out with their first S3 service back in 2006. >> Right. >> Right? so I think look, Cloud is going to accelerate even more further. The areas is going to accelerate is for different reasons. I think now you're seeing the initial days, it's all about startups, initial workloads, Dev test and QA test, now you're talking about real production workloads are moving towards Cloud, right? Initially it was backup, we really didn't care for backup they really put there. Now you're going to have Cloud health primary services, your primary storage will be there, it's not going to be an EMC, It's not going to be a NetApp storage, right? So workloads are going to shift from the business applications, and these business applications, will be running on the Cloud, and I'll make another prediction, make customer service and support. Customer service and support, again, we should be running on the Cloud. You're not want to run the thing on a Dell server, or an IBM server, or an HP server, with your own hosted environment. That model is not because there's no economies of scale. So to your point, what will drive Cloud for the next 10 years, will be economies of scale. Where can you take the cost? How can I save money? If you don't move to the Cloud, you won't save money. So all those workloads are going to go to the Cloud are people who really want to save, like global gradual custom, right? If you stay on the ASP model, a hosted, you're not going to save your costs, your costs will constantly go up from a SaaS perspective. >> So that doesn't bode well for all the On-prem guys, and you hear a lot of the vendors that don't own a Cloud that talk about repatriation, but the numbers don't support that. So what do those guys do? I mean, they're talking multi-Cloud, of course they're talking hybrid, that's IBM's big play, how do you see it? >> I think, look, see there, to me, multi-Cloud makes sense, right? You don't want one vendor that you never want to get, so having Amazon, Microsoft, Google, it gives them a multi-Cloud. Even hybrid Cloud does make sense, right? There'll be some workloads. It's like, we are still running On-prem environment, we still have mainframe, so it's never going to be a hundred percent, but I would say the majority, your question is, can we get to 60, 70, 80% workers in the next 10 years? I think you will. I think by 2025, more than 78% of the Cloud Migration by the next five years, 70% of workload for enterprise will be on the Cloud. The remaining 25, maybe Hybrid, maybe On-prem, but I get panics, really doesn't matter. You have saved and part of your business is running on the Cloud. That's your cost saving, that's where you'll see the economies of scale, and that's where all the growth will happen. >> So square the circle for me, because again, you hear the stat on the IDC stat, IBM Ginni Rometty puts it out there a lot that only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, everything else is On-prem, but it's not a zero sum game, right? I mean the Cloud native stuff is growing like crazy, the On-prem stuff is flat to down, so what's going to happen? When you talk about 70% of the workloads will be in the Cloud, do you see those mission critical apps and moving into the car, I mean the insurance companies going to put their claims apps in the Cloud, or the financial services companies going to put their mission critical workloads in the Cloud, or they just going to develop new stuff that's Cloud native that is sort of interacts with the On-prem. How do you see that playing out? >> Yeah, no, I think absolutely, I think a very good question. So two things will happen. I think if you take an enterprise, right? Most businesses what they'll do is the workloads that they should not be running On-prem, they'll move it up. So obviously things like take, as I said, I use the word SharePoint, right? SharePoint and conference, all the knowledge stuff is still running on people's data centers. There's no reason. I understand, I've seen statistics that 70, 80% of the On-prem for SharePoint will move to SharePoint on the Cloud. So Microsoft is going to make tons of money on that, right? Same thing, databases, right? Whether it's CQL server, whether there is Oracle database, things that you are running as a database, as a Cloud, we move to the Cloud. Whether that is posted in Oracle Cloud, or you're running Oracle or Mongo DB, or Dynamo DB on AWS or SQL server Microsoft, that's going to happen. Then what you're talking about is really the App concept, the applications themselves, the App server. Is the App server is going to run On-prem, how much it's going to laureate outside? There may be a hybrid Cloud, like for example, Kafka. I may use a Purse running on a Kafka as a service, or I may be using Elasticsearch for my indexing on AWS or Google Cloud, but I may be running my App locally. So there'll be some hybrid place, but what I would say is for every application, 75% of your Comprende will be on the Cloud. So think of it like the Dev. So even for the On-prem app, you're not going to be a 100 percent On-prem. The competent, the billing materials will move to the Cloud, your Purse, your storage, because if you put it On-prem, you need to add all this, you need to have all the whole things to buy it and hire the people, so that's what is going to happen. So from a competent perspective, 70% of your bill of materials will move to the Cloud, even for an On-prem application. >> So, Of course, the susification of the industry in the last decade and in my three favorite companies last decade, you've worked for two of them, Tableau, ServiceNow, and Splunk. I want to ask you about those, but I'm interested in the potential disruption there. I mean, you've got these SAS companies, Salesforce of course is another one, but they can't get started in 1999. What do you see happening with those? I mean, we're basically building these sort of large SAS, platforms, now. Do you think that the Cloud native world that developers can come at this from an angle where they can disrupt those companies, or are they too entrenched? I mean, look at service now, I mean, I don't know, $80 billion market capital where they are, they bigger than Workday, I mean, just amazing how much they've grown and you feel like, okay, nothing can stop them, but there's always disruption in this industry, what are your thoughts on that. >> Not very good with, I think there'll be disrupted. So to me actually to your point, ServiceNow is now close to a 100 billion now, 95 billion market coverage, crazy. So from evaluation perspective, so I think the reason they'll be disrupted is that the SAS vendors that you talked about, ServiceNow, and all this plan, most of these services, they're truly not a multi-tenant or what do you call the Cloud Native. And that is the Accenture. So because of that, they will not be able to pass the savings back to the enterprises. So the cost economics, the economics that the Cloud provides because of the multi tenancy ability will not. The second reason there'll be disrupted is AI. So far, we talked about Cloud, but AI is the core. So it's not really Cloud Native, Dave, I look at the AI in a two-piece. AI is going to change, see all the SAS vendors were created 20 years back, if you remember, was an operator typing it, I don't respond administered we'll type a Splunk query. I don't need a human to type a query anymore, system will actually find it, that's what the whole security game has changed, right? So what's going to happen is if you believe in that, that AI, your score will disrupt all the SAS vendors, so one angle SAS is going to have is a Cloud. That's where you make the Cloud will take up because a SAS application will be Cloudified. Being SAS is not Cloud, right? Second thing is SAS will be also, I call it, will be AI-fied. So AI and machine learning will be trying to drive at the core so that I don't need that many licenses. I don't need that many humans. I don't need that many administrators to manage, I call them the tuners. Once you get a driverless car, you don't need a thousand tuners to tune your Tesla, or Google Waymo car. So the same philosophy will happen is your Dev Apps, your administrators, your service management, people that you need for service now, and these products, Zendesk with AI, will tremendously will disrupt. >> So you're saying, okay, so yeah, I was going to ask you, won't the SAS vendors, won't they be able to just put, inject AI into their platforms, and I guess I'm inferring saying, yeah, but a lot of the problems that they're solving, are going to go away because of AI, is that right? And automation and RPA and things of that nature, is that right? >> Yes and no. So I'll tell you what, sorry, you have asked a very good question, let's answer, let me rephrase that question. What you're saying is, "Why can't the existing SAS vendors do the AI?" >> Yes, right. >> Right, >> And there's a reason they can't do it is their pricing model is by number of seats. So I'm not going to come to Dave, and say, come on, come pay me less money. It's the same reason why a board and general lover build an electric car. They're selling 10 million gasoline cars. There's no incentive for me, I'm not going to do any AI, I'm going to put, I'm not going to come to you and say, hey, buy me a hundred less license next year from it. So that is one reason why AI, even though these guys do any AI, it's going to be just so I call it, they're going to, what do you call it, a whitewash, kind of like you put some paint brush on it, trying to show you some AI you did from a marketing dynamics. But at the core, if you really implement the AI with you take the driver out, how are you going to change the pricing model? And being a public company, you got to take a hit on the pricing model and the price, and it's going to have a stocking part. So that, to your earlier question, will somebody disrupt them? The person who is going to disrupt them, will disrupt them on the pricing model. >> Right. So I want to ask you about that, because we saw a Snowflake, and it's IPO, we were able to pour through its S-1, and they have a different pricing model. It's a true Cloud consumption model, Whereas of course, most SAS companies, they're going to lock you in for at least one year term, maybe more, and then, you buy the license, you got to pay X. If you, don't use it, you still got to pay for it. Snowflake's different, actually they have a different problem, that people are using it too much and the sea is driving the CFO crazy because the bill is going up and up and up, but to me, that's the right model, It's just like the Amazon model, if you can justify it, so how do you see the pricing, that consumption model is actually, you're seeing some of the On-prem guys at HPE, Dell, they're doing as a service. They're kind of taking a page out of the last decade SAS model, so I think pricing is a real tricky one, isn't it? >> No, you nailed it, you nailed it. So I think the way in which the Snowflake there, how the disruptors are data warehouse, that disrupted the open source vendors too. Snowflake distributed, imagine the playbook, you disrupted something as the $ 0, right? It's an open source with Cloudera, Hortonworks, Mapper, that whole big data that you want me to, or that market is this, that disrupting data warehouses like Netezza, Teradata, and the charging more money, they're making more money and disrupting at $0, because the pricing models by consumption that you talked about. CMT is going to happen in the service now, Zen Desk, well, 'cause their pricing one is by number of seats. People are going to say, "How are my users are going to ask?" right? If you're an employee help desk, you're back to your original health collaborative. I may be on Slack, I could be on zoom, I'll maybe on MS Teams, I'm going to ask by using usage model on Slack, tools by employees to service now is the pricing model that people want to pay for. The more my employees use it, the more value I get. But I don't want to pay by number of seats, so the vendor, who's going to figure that out, and that's where I look, if you know me, I'm right over as I started, that's what I've tried to push that model look, I love that because that's the core of how you want to change the new game. >> I agree. I say, kill me with that problem, I mean, some people are trying to make it a criticism, but you hit on the point. If you pay more, it's only because you're getting more value out of it. So I wanted to flip the switch here a little bit and take a customer angle. Something that you've been on all sides. And I want to talk a little bit about strategies, you've been a strategist, I guess, once a strategist, always a strategist. How should organizations be thinking about their approach to Cloud, it's cost different for different industries, but, back when the cube started, financial services Cloud was a four-letter word. But of course the age of company is going to matter, but what's the framework for figuring out your Cloud strategy to get to your 70% and really take advantage of the economics? Should I be Mono Cloud, Multi-Cloud, Multi-vendor, what would you advise? >> Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, I actually call it the tech stack. Actually you and John taught me that what was the tech stack, like the lamp stack, I think there is a new Cloud stack needs to come, and that I think the bottomline there should be... First of all, anything with storage should be in the Cloud. I mean, if you want to start, whether you are, financial, doesn't matter, there's no way. I come from cybersecurity side, I've seen it. Your attackers will be more with insiders than being on the Cloud, so storage has to be in the Cloud then come compute, Kubernetes. If you really want to use containers and Kubernetes, it has to be in the public Cloud, leverage that have the computer on their databases. That's where it can be like if your data is so strong, maybe run it On-prem, maybe have it on a hosted model for when it comes to database, but there you have a choice between hybrid Cloud and public Cloud choice. Then on top when it comes to App, the app itself, you can run locally or anywhere, the App and database. Now the areas that you really want to go after to migrate is look at anything that's an enterprise workload that you don't need people to manage it. You want your own team to move up in the career. You don't want thousand people looking at... you don't want to have a, for example, IT administrators to call central people to the people to manage your compute storage. That workload should be more, right? You already saw Sierra moved out to Salesforce. We saw collaboration already moved out. Zoom is not running locally. You already saw SharePoint with knowledge management mode up, right? With a box, drawbacks, you name anything. The next global mode is a SAS workloads, right? I think Workday service running there, but work data will go into the Cloud. I bet at some point Zendesk, ServiceNow, then either they put it on the public Cloud, or they have to create a product and public Cloud. To your point, these public Cloud vendors are at $2 trillion market cap. They're they're bigger than the... I call them nation States. >> Yeah, >> So I'm servicing though. I mean, there's a 2 trillion market gap between Amazon and Azure, I'm not going to compete with them. So I want to take this workload to run it there. So all these vendors, if you see that's where Shandra from Adobe is pushing this right, Adobe, Workday, Anaplan, all the SAS vendors we'll move them into the public Cloud within these vendors. So those workloads need to move out, right? So that all those things will start, then you'll start migrating, but I call your procurement. That's where the RPA comes in. The other thing that we didn't talk about, back to your first question, what is the next 10 years of Cloud will be RPA? That third piece to Cloud is RPA because if you have your systems On-prem, I can't automate them. I have to do a VPN into your house there and then try to automate your systems, or your procurement, et cetera. So all these RPA vendors are still running On-prem, most of them, whether it's UI path automation anywhere. So the Cloud should be where the brain should be. That's what I call them like the octopus analogy, the brain is in the Cloud, the tentacles are everywhere, they should manage it. But if my tentacles have to do a VPN with your house to manage it, I'm always will have failures. So if you look at the why RPA did not have the growth, like the Snowflake, like the Cloud, because they are running it On-prem, most of them still. 80% of the RP revenue is On-prem, running On-prem, that needs to be called clarified. So AI, RPA and the SAS, are the three reasons Cloud will take off. >> Awesome. Thank you for that. Now I want to flip the switch again. You're an investor or a multi-tool player here, but so if you're, let's say you're an ecosystem player, and you're kind of looking at the landscape as you're in an investor, of course you've invested in the Cloud, because the Cloud is where it's at, but you got to be careful as an ecosystem player to pick a spot that both provides growth, but allows you to have a moat as, I mean, that's why I'm really curious to see how Snowflake's going to compete because they're competing with AWS, Microsoft, and Google, unlike, Frank, when he was at service now, he was competing with BMC and with on-prem and he crushed it, but the competitors are much more capable here, but it seems like they've got, maybe they've got a moat with MultiCloud, and that whole data sharing thing, we'll see. But, what about that? Where are the opportunities? Where's that white space? And I know there's a lot of white space, but what's the framework to look at, from an investor standpoint, or even a CEO standpoint, where you want to put place your bets. >> No, very good question, so look, I did something. We talk as an investor in the board with many companies, right? So one thing that says as an investor, if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Docker or a computer, there's no way nobody's going to invest. So that we can motor off, even if you want to do object storage or a block storage, I mean, I've been an investor board member of so many storage companies, there's no way as an industry, I'll write a check for a compute or storage, right? If you want to create a next generation network, like either NetSuite, or restart Juniper, Cisco, there is no way. But if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Viper for remote working environments, where AI is at the core, I'm interested in that, right? So if you look at how the packets are dropped, there's no intelligence in either not switching today. The packets come, I do it. The intelligence is not built into the network with AI level. So if somebody comes with an AI, what good is all this NVD, our GPS, et cetera, if you cannot do wire speed, packet inspection, looking at the content and then route the traffic. If I see if it's a video package, but in UN Boston, there's high interview day of they should be loading our package faster, because you are a premium ISP. That intelligence has not gone there. So you will see, and that will be a bad people will happen in the network, switching, et cetera, right? So that is still an angle. But if you work and it comes to platform services, remember when I was at Pivotal and VMware, all models was my boss, that would, yes, as a platform, service is a game already won by the Cloud guys. >> Right. (indistinct) >> Silicon Valley Investors, I don't think you want to invest in past services, right? I mean, you might come with some lecture edition database to do some updates, there could be some game, let's say we want to do a time series database, or some metrics database, there's always some small angle, but the opportunity to go create a national database there it's very few. So I'm kind of eliminating all the black spaces, right? >> Yeah. >> We have the white spaces that comes in is the SAS level. Now to your point, if I'm Amazon, I'm going to compete with Snowflake, I have Redshift. So this is where at some point, these Cloud platforms, I call them aircraft carriers. They're not going to stay on the aircraft carriers, they're going to own the land as well. So they're going to move up to the SAS space. The question is you want to create a SAS service like CRM. They are not going to create a CRM like service, they may not create a sales force and service now, but if you're going to add a data warehouse, I can very well see Azure, Google, and AWS, going to create something to compute a Snowflake. Why would I not? It's so close to my database and data warehouse, I already have Redshift. So that's going to be nightlights, same reason, If you look at Netflix, you have a Netflix and you have Amazon prime. Netflix runs on Amazon, but you have Amazon prime. So you have the same model, you have Snowflake, and you'll have Redshift. The both will help each other, there'll be a... What do you call it? Coexistence will happen. But if you really want to invest, you want to invest in SAS companies. You do not want to be investing in a compliment players. You don't want to a feature. >> Yeah, that's great, I appreciate that perspective. And I wonder, so obviously Microsoft play in SAS, Google's got G suite. And I wonder if people often ask the Andy Jassy, you're going to move up the stack, you got to be an application, a SAS vendor, and you never say never with Atavist, But I wonder, and we were talking to Jerry Chen about this, years ago on theCube, and his angle was that Amazon will play, but they'll play through developers. They'll enable developers, and they'll participate, they'll take their, lick off the cone. So it's going to be interesting to see how directly Amazon plays, but at some point you got Tam expansion, you got to play in that space. >> Yeah, I'll give you an example of knowing, I got acquired by a couple of times by EMC. So I learned a lot from Joe Tucci and Paul Merage over the years. see Paul and Joe, what they did is to look at how 20 years, and they are very close to Boston in your area, Joe, what games did is they used to sell storage, but you know what he did, he went and bought the Apps to drive them. He bought like Legato, he bought Documentum, he bought Captiva, if you remember how he acquired all these companies as a services, he bought VMware to drive that. So I think the good angle that Microsoft has is, I'm a SAS player, I have dynamics, I have CRM, I have SharePoint, I have Collaboration, I have Office 365, MS Teams for users, and then I have the platform as Azure. So I think if I'm Amazon, (indistinct). I got to own the apps so that I can drive this workforce on my platform. >> Interesting. >> Just going to developers, like I know Jerry Chan, he was my peer a BMF. I don't think just literally to developers and that model works in open source, but the open source game is pretty much gone, and not too many companies made money. >> Well, >> Most companies pretty much gone. >> Yeah, he's right. Red hats not bad idea. But it's very interesting what you're saying there. And so, hey, its why Oracle wants to have Tiktok, running on their platform, right? I mean, it's going to. (laughing) It's going to drive that further integration. I wanted to ask you something, you were talking about, you wouldn't invest in storage or compute, but I wonder, and you mentioned some commentary about GPU's. Of course the videos has been going crazy, but they're now saying, okay, how do we expand our Team, they make the acquisition of arm, et cetera. What about this DPU thing, if you follow that, that data processing unit where they're like hyper dis-aggregation and then they reaggregate, and as an offload and really to drive data centric workloads. Have you looked at that at all? >> I did, I think, and that's a good angle. So I think, look, it's like, it goes through it. I don't know if you remember in your career, we have seen it. I used to get Silicon graphics. I saw the first graphic GPU, right? That time GPU was more graphic processor unit, >> Right, yeah, work stations. >> So then become NPUs at work processing units, right? There was a TCP/IP office offloading, if you remember right, there was like vector processing unit. So I think every once in a while the industry, recreated this separate unit, as a co-processor to the main CPU, because main CPU's inefficient, and it makes sense. And then Google created TPU's and then we have the new world of the media GPU's, now we have DPS all these are good, but what's happening is, all these are driving for machine learning, AI for the training period there. Training period Sometimes it's so long with the workloads, if you can cut down, it makes sense. >> Yeah. >> Because, but the question is, these aren't so specialized in nature. I can't use it for everything. >> Yup. >> I want Ideally, algorithms to be paralyzed, I want the training to be paralyzed, I want so having deep use and GPS are important, I think where I want to see them as more, the algorithm, there should be more investment from the NVIDIA's and these guys, taking the algorithm to be highly paralyzed them. (indistinct) And I think that still has not happened in industry yet. >> All right, so we're pretty much out of time, but what are you doing these days? Where are you spending your time, are you still in Stealth, give us a little glimpse. >> Yeah, no, I'm out of the Stealth, I'm actually the CEO of Aisera now, Aisera, obviously I invested with them, but I'm the CEO of Aisero. It's funded by Menlo ventures, Norwest, True, along with Khosla ventures and Ram Shriram is a big investor. Robin's on the board of Google, so these guys, look, we are going out to the collaboration game. How do you automate customer service and support for employees and then users, right? In this whole game, we talked about the Zoom, Slack and MS Teams, that's what I'm spending time, I want to create next generation service now. >> Fantastic. Muddu, I always love having you on you, pull punches, you tell it like it is, that you're a great visionary technologist. Thanks so much for coming on theCube, and participating in our program. >> Dave, it's always a pleasure speaking to you sir. Thank you. >> Okay. Keep it right there, there's more coming from Cuba and Cloud right after this break. (slow music)

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante as we watch an historic election unfold before our eyes we look back at the early days of the millennium with the memorable presidential race of 2000 that decade of course was defined by 911 which permanently reshaped our thinking and we exited that decade at the tail end of a massive financial crisis only to enter the 2010s with the hope and the momentum of fiscal stimulus a flat globe job growth and very importantly the ascendancy of the cloud cloud computing unquestionably powered the innovation engine over the last 10 years and the pandemic marks a new era where adoption of cloud data and ai have been accelerated by at least two to three years and that's what's going to shape the future of the technology industry and frankly all businesses and organizations hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode of thecube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we're going to update you on our latest cloud market share and dig in to some fresh october survey data from our partners over at etr let me start just with a brief summary of the latest action that's going on in cloud now quite interestingly each of the big three cloud players they showed nearly identical year-on-year growth rates in q3 as they did in q2 now we're going to dig into that in a moment but our data suggests that these three companies combined will account for more than 75 billion dollars in infrastructure as a service and platform as a service revenue in 2020 and they're potentially on track to hit 100 billion in 2021. customer survey data indicates that cio's top two infrastructure priorities remain security and cloud migration now that said as we previously reported the cloud it's not immune to the pandemic the remote worker pivot well it's a positive for cloud hasn't completely eradicated certain headwinds now what i mean here is that because the cloud vendors are now so large they're somewhat exposed to the softness in the overall i.t spending climate and also industries that have been hit hardest by the pandemic now would the cloud growth have been better if the pandemic didn't hit we'll never know for sure but our data suggests no covet has definitely been a benefactor to cloud in our view cloud will remain at the center of technological innovation for the foreseeable future the economics of cloud are becoming so compelling that we think the power of the big cloud companies will only increase this decade now importantly we're talking about the costs of running hyper-distributed systems we're not commenting here on what they charge customers that's a different story we believe the cost structure for the hyperscalers is superior to alternative approaches and we believe this advantage will only accelerate over the next several years we also believe that competition is going to continue to drive competitive pricing and innovation all right let's look at our latest market share numbers for the big three this chart shows our estimates of aws azure and the google cloud platform now viewers of this program know that these are is and pass figures and you also know that aws is the only company that provides clean numbers on that sector whereas azure and gcp are estimates that we make based on tidbits of guidance that the companies give us and survey data that we capture and other modeling that we do now as we've said we'll end this year it's about 75 billion in revenue or maybe even a little bit more note that for these three note that we've we've slightly restated some of our earlier estimates for azure to reconcile some differences that we had between constant currency and actual growth we try to keep things in constant currency where possible sorry for that but sometimes that happens azure according to our estimates as we reported last week is now 18 of microsoft's overall revenue number we had it at 19 that last week but when i dug in we made some adjustments so we toned it down a bit aws represents a much smaller percentage of course of amazon's revenues at about 12 percent but it represents 56 percent of amazon's profits gcp on the other hand accounts for less than five percent of google's overall revenue which as we've stated a few weeks ago needs more attention from google but look at the growth rates for these three platforms and the respective size of their is and pass businesses hear all this talk about repatriation i.e that what i mean by that is people go to the cloud but they're unhappy or the bill is too high it's too expensive so then they come back on prem well you just don't see that in the numbers so you gotta be careful when vendor a vendor tries to sell you on that trend i don't buy it except for selective situations now let's bring in some of the etr data and compare the spending momentum for each of the big three you've seen these wheel graphs before they show the breakdown of net score for aws microsoft and google now one note these figures represent these three companies overall within the etr technology taxonomy so for example they don't include amazon's retail business of course but they do include for example microsoft's entire tech portfolio not just the cloud the green portion of the wheel represents increases in spending via new adoptions and increased spending whereas the red sections show decreases via lower spending and defections net score which i've highlighted in the orange is calculated by subtracting the two reds from the two true greens in other words adoptions and increase minus decrease and replacements the takeaway here is these are all pretty strong with aws leading the pack microsoft is exceptionally strong as we pointed out last last week because they're so huge and they still have net scores comparable to aws which is a pure play gcp is a laggard and is showing softness in the data despite a sanguine outlook that we had back in 2019 based on survey data i don't know perhaps google's smaller presence muted their customers ability to take advantage of the platform the thinking there is the customers maybe needed to pivot to the cloud so quickly and aws and azure were the incumbents and that was maybe the most expedient path hence the higher increases in the spend more category but you do see gcp um they had 13 new adoptions which is pretty good so we'll keep looking at that regardless again these are not pure play cloud comparisons but they give a good indication of spending momentum i'd also note that all three show very low defections well each is showing solid increases in new adoptions especially google as i mentioned so that's kind of interesting to see but again google much much smaller you would expect that now i want to turn our attention to one of the hottest areas in cloud which is serverless and this is a pure play comparison so serverless let me start there it's a strange term because it's not really accurate but it's stuck serverless computing is a model where the cloud platform dynamically delivers services as the application requires so so you don't have to configure the compute and the containers for example rather when an application needs resources it goes and gets them and you only pay for when the services are actually invoked and in use so it's really good for workloads that spin up and spin down very frequently it kind of reminds me in concept anyway of the component tree that we saw in the days of soa if you remember that services oriented architecture but now this is cloud it's cloud native it's a whole new world and it's increasingly a popular model and as we'll show in a moment there's a lot of spending momentum in this area but before we do that i want to share some comments made by andy jassy a while back about serverless take a listen it's a good question and you know i really the comment i made was really about um directionally what amazon would do you know in this in the very earliest days of aws jeff used to say a lot if i were starting amazon today i'd have built it on top of aws we didn't have all the capability and all the functionality at that very moment but he knew what was coming and he saw what people were still able to accomplish even with where the services were at that point i think the same thing is true here with lambda which is i think if amazon were starting today it's a given they would build it on the cloud and i think with a lot of the applications that comprise amazon's consumer business we would build those on on our serverless capabilities now now lambda of course jesse referring to lambda that's amazon's serverless offering and if you think about amazon's retail business and take for example the frequent spin up and spin down of resources for something like black monday serverless would be a much more cost effective approach same for a managed data warehouse service for example where you know you don't want to pay for the compute if it's idle the app just calls for the compute when it's needed so it's a very popular model and it's got increased momentum today and you see that in this slide it shows the net score breakdown for serverless for azure aws is lambda which is again is their serverless offering and google cloud functions again you're shipping functions to the application that's why it's called functions look at the net scores azure functions nearly 70 aws at 65 google again lagging and that's a bit of a concern because this is a really really hot space all right let's move on and look at the competitive landscape as we like to do often and update you on that this xy graph is one of our favorites and it shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share on the horizontal market share is a measure of pervasiveness in the data set in the upper right you also see a table that ranks each vendor my net score and it includes the shared n in other words the number of mentions in this sector for each vendor now you can you can see up top in the middle i've selected on the cloud computing category so this represents only the cloud businesses for each of these players there's a little bit of nuance here and that we've selected on microsoft azure there's a category in the etr taxonomy for that and we're comparing that with aws overall so there's there are things in the aws overall number that fit into the other parts of the taxonomy like maybe ai collaboration etc whereas azures and gcp are just the cloud segments so i i know it's a bit strange because aws is all cloud but don't get caught up in the taxonomical nuance the point is it's good to be azure in aws it's shown there when you look at the upper right of the chart here they stand out and they stand alone in cloud leadership google cloud is they have nice elevated levels but they're much much smaller they don't have the presence in the market now look at that hybrid cloud zone emerging we've talked about this sometimes in the past and and i want to call it vmware cloud on aws red hat open shift and vmware cloud itself like vmware cloud foundation and their other cloud services all of these appear to be gaining traction and you can see in the number of occurrences in the upper right that shared end that i talked about we're starting to see real numbers that are meaningful in this space vmware cloud on aws for example has a net score of 53 percent with 116 accounts within that total respondent sample that you see there in the middle left of 1438 that's how many cios and technology buyers responded to the etr survey in october you look at open shift at 45 net score and that's with 82 accounts now openshift is in beta with what looked to be some really strong offerings on aws and you can see for context i've added dell emc's cloud offerings hpe's cloud offerings and the oracle cloud and ibm cloud and also rackspace dell actually pretty strong with a net score of 20 and 185 shared accounts much much higher than dell overall which is kind of in the red zone oracle ibm you see those rackspace you know organizing not killing it rackspace is kind of in the big negative so that's a concern but anyway we'd like for these guys we'd like to see the data match the marketing rhetoric for the the guys that are in the red and look alibaba is starting to to show up in the server there's only 26 shared ends but we thought we'd we'd put it in there those three key points again aws and microsoft keep on trucking google needs to do better hybrid is becoming real and that bodes well for multi-cloud and the legacy on-prem guys they got a lot of work to do they're under a lot of pressure the pivot to cloud has not been easy for them uh and it's still a case where they're i've talked about this a lot they're they're declines in their on-premises offerings they're not being offset by the new stuff the cloud momentum all right i want to close out by sharing some of the conversations and thoughts that we've had in the community around sas and its impact on cloud we really have been focusing on ias and pass of the sas layer obviously up the stack so let me first share that there's a lot of talk around and has been for years about aws they're slowing growth rates and whether or not they'll have to enter the sas market to expand their total available market and i've said consistently while i never say never about aws i don't think so at least not yet this chart plots the big three cloud players note aws is a bigger piece of this pie now that i've turned off the cloud computing filter and i know more nuances but the data wonks will will find you know see this and they'll ask me about it this is all of aws portfolio and again it's only the microsoft azure portfolio so you see it aws now overtakes azure on the x-axis i.e market share now we've plotted some of the major sas vendors and you can see servicenow and salesforce both very large and they have really strong spending momentum and servicenow's you know pushing 100 billion dollars in market value they've surpassed workday quite some time ago workday's got less presence but they've got really really solid net score and i got to say i'm impressed with sap despite some of the earnings challenges that they've been having they're right up there with splunk and tableau splunk has softened in recent surveys and i've i've also plotted in there netsuite and oracle fusion which are just okay and that is i think for now anyway aws is going to position as the best place and the most friendly and highest quality cloud in which to run your sas for example workday runs on aws aws is salesforce's preferred infrastructure platform so my premise here is just like retail companies might want not want to run on aws a number of sas companies that compete with microsoft they might think twice about running on azure so aws would be better off for now trying to attract those sas players and drive their services and sticking to infrastructure and the pass layer snowflake is actually kind of interesting and i've added them for context because their netscore is always kind of a bellwether it's really off the charts and they're an isv running on the cloud they're different from some of the other sas players and the snowflake is a database okay and most of snowflake's business runs on aws and aws competes with snowflake with redshift but aws has the best cloud and drives a lot of business for snowflake and vice versa so it's kind of interesting snow snowflake to redshift and a much smaller example is kind of like netflix to amazon prime video to compete they both thrive so i think aws is going to continue to grow by attracting sas players as the preferred platform and they'll also attract developers and try to disrupt sas players like servicenow which runs on its own cloud i remember years ago david floyer and i said that servicenow was it was awesome but at some point its infrastructure cost structure its infrastructure cost structure is going to be less competitive than those companies that are running on hyperscale clouds certainly the hyperscale clouds themselves and servicenow they have this multi-instance architecture which just can't easily port over to the cloud but it can charge a lot which it does now at some point some sharp developers are going to look at all this and say whoa see that service now i can build this for less and they'll attack servicenow and their seat base license model maybe with the consumption pricing model and a platform that's perhaps or a set of services that are perhaps less expensive you're seeing this to a you know a certain degree with like elastic inside the application performance management space so there's some some things to watch there but there are those who firmly believe that aws will and must enter the sas space directly we talked last week about how beneficial microsoft's application business is for azure and what a flywheel that is but for me i think we're not there yet let's give it some time i think maybe four to five years before aws may even start to think about filling some of the space up the stack now maybe they'll find some unique opportunities to do that for instance at the edge but i think that's way off okay so bottom line it's good to be in tech these days it's even better to be in the cloud and it's best if you're aws and microsoft and i don't see that changing for a while now remember these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen i publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com you can get in touch with me through email it's david at siliconangle.com feel free to dm me on twitter at d vallante i post on linkedin love your comments there thank you and don't forget to check out etr plus for all the survey action thanks for watching this episode of thecube insights powered by etr this is dave vellante stay safe stay sane and we'll see you next time 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(gentle music) >> From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCube Conversation. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante, we're back at Cube on Cloud, and with me is Muddu Sudhakar. He's a long time alum of theCube, a technologist and executive, a serial entrepreneur and an investor. Welcome my friend, good to see you. >> Good to see you, Dave. Pleasure to be with you. Happy elections, I guess. >> Yeah, yeah. So I wanted to start, this work from home, pivot's been amazing, and you've seen the enterprise collaboration explode. I wrote a piece a couple months ago, looking at valuations of various companies, right around the snowflake IPO, I want to ask you about that, but I was looking at the valuations of various companies, at Spotify, and Shopify, and of course Zoom was there. And I was looking at just simple revenue multiples, and I said, geez, Zoom actually looks, might look undervalued, which is crazy, right? And of course the stock went up after that, and you see teams, Microsoft Teams, and Microsoft doing a great job across the board, we've written about that, you're seeing Webex is exploding, I mean, what do you make of this whole enterprise collaboration play? >> No, I think the look there is a trend here, right? So I think this probably trend started before COVID, but COVID is going to probably accelerate this whole digital transformation, right? People are going to work remotely a lot more, not everybody's going to come back to the offices even after COVID, so I think this whole collaboration through Slack, and Zoom, and Microsoft Teams and Webex, it's going to be the new game now, right? Both the video, audio and chat solutions, that's really going to help people like eyeballs. You're not going to spend time on all four of them, right? It's like everyday from a consumer side, you're going to spend time on your Gmail, Facebook, maybe Twitter, maybe Instagram, so like in the consumer side, on your personal life, you have something on the enterprise. The eyeballs are going to be in these platforms. >> Yeah. Well. >> But we're not going to take everything. >> Well, So you are right, there's a permanence to this, and I got a lot of ground to cover with you. And I always like our conversations mood because you tell it like it is, I'm going to stay on that work from home pivot. You know a lot about security, but you've seen three big trends, like mega trends in security, Endpoint, Identity Access Management, and Cloud Security, you're seeing this in the stock prices of companies like CrowdStrike, Zscaler, Okta- >> Right >> Sailpoint- >> Right, I mean, they exploded, as a result of the pandemic, and I think I'm inferring from your comment that you see that as permanent, but that's a real challenge from a security standpoint. What's the impact of Cloud there? >> No, it isn't impact but look, first is all the services required to be Cloud, right? See, the whole ideas for it to collaborate and do these things. So you cannot be running an application, like you can't be running conference and SharePoint oN-Prem, and try to on a Zoom and MS teams. So that's why, if you look at Microsoft is very clever, they went with Office 365, SharePoint 365, now they have MS Teams, so I think that Cloud is going to drive all these workloads that you have been talking about a lot, right? You and John have been saying this for years now. The eruption of Cloud and SAS services are the vehicle to drive this next-generation collaboration. >> You know what's so cool? So Cloud obviously is the topic, I wonder how you look at the last 10 years of Cloud, and maybe we could project forward, I mean the big three Cloud vendors, they're running it like $20 billion a quarter, and they're growing collectively, 35, 40% clips, so we're really approaching a hundred billion dollars for these three. And you hear stats like only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, so it feels like we're just getting started. How do you look at the impact of Cloud on the market, as you say, the last 10 years, and what do you expect going forward? >> No, I think it's very fascinating, right? So I remember when theCube, you guys are talking about 10 years back, now it's been what? More than 10 years, 15 years, since AWS came out with their first S3 service back in 2006. >> Right. >> Right? so I think look, Cloud is going to accelerate even more further. The areas is going to accelerate is for different reasons. I think now you're seeing the initial days, it's all about startups, initial workloads, Dev test and QA test, now you're talking about real production workloads are moving towards Cloud, right? Initially it was backup, we really didn't care for backup they really put there. Now you're going to have Cloud health primary services, your primary storage will be there, it's not going to be an EMC, It's not going to be a ETAP storage, right? So workloads are going to shift from the business applications, and this business App again, will be running on the Cloud, and I'll make another prediction, make customer service and support. Customer service and support, again, we should be running on the Cloud. You're not want to run the thing on a Dell server, or an IBM server, or an HP server, with your own hosted environment. That model is not because there's no economies of scale. So to your point, what will drive Cloud for the next 10 years, will be economies of scale. Where can you take the cost? How can I save money? If you don't move to the Cloud, you won't save money. So all those workloads are going to go to the Cloud are people who really want to save, like global gradual custom, right? If you stay on the ASP model, a hosted, you're not going to save your costs, your costs will constantly go up from a SAS perspective. >> So that doesn't bode well for all the On-prem guys, and you hear a lot of the vendors that don't own a Cloud that talk about repatriation, but the numbers don't support that. So what do those guys do? I mean, they're talking multi-Cloud, of course they're talking hybrid, that's IBM's big play, how do you see it? >> I think, look, see there, to me, multi-Cloud makes sense, right? You don't want one vendor that you never want to get, so having Amazon, Microsoft, Google, it gives them a multi-Cloud. Even hybrid Cloud does make sense, right? There'll be some workloads. It's like, we are still running On-prem environment, we still have mainframe, so it's never going to be a hundred percent, but I would say the majority, your question is, can we get to 60, 70, 80% workers in the next 10 years? I think you will. I think by 2025, more than 78% of the Cloud Migration by the next five years, 70% of workload for enterprise will be on the Cloud. The remaining 25, maybe Hybrid, maybe On-prem, but I get panics, really doesn't matter. You have saved and part of your business is running on the Cloud. That's your cost saving, that's where you'll see the economies of scale, and that's where all the growth will happen. >> So square the circle for me, because again, you hear the stat on the IDC stat, IBM Ginni Rometty puts it out there a lot that only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, everything else is On-prem, but it's not a zero sum game, right? I mean the Cloud native stuff is growing like crazy, the On-prem stuff is flat to down, so what's going to happen? When you talk about 70% of the workloads will be in the Cloud, do you see those mission critical apps and moving into the car, I mean the insurance companies going to put their claims apps in the Cloud, or the financial services companies going to put their mission critical workloads in the Cloud, or they just going to develop new stuff that's Cloud native that is sort of interacts with the On-prem. How do you see that playing out? >> Yeah, no, I think absolutely, I think a very good question. So two things will happen. I think if you take an enterprise, right? Most businesses what they'll do is the workloads that they should not be running On-prem, they'll move it up. So obviously things like take, as I said, I use the word SharePoint, right? SharePoint and conference, all the knowledge stuff is still running on people's data centers. There's no reason. I understand, I've seen statistics that 70, 80% of the On-prem for SharePoint will move to SharePoint on the Cloud. So Microsoft is going to make tons of money on that, right? Same thing, databases, right? Whether it's CQL server, whether there is Oracle database, things that you are running as a database, as a Cloud, we move to the Cloud. Whether that is posted in Oracle Cloud, or you're running Oracle or Mongo DB, or Dynamo DB on AWS or SQL server Microsoft, that's going to happen. Then what you're talking about is really the App concept, the applications themselves, the App server. Is the App server is going to run On-prem, how much it's going to laureate outside? There may be a hybrid Cloud, like for example, Kafka. I may use a Purse running on a Kafka as a service, or I may be using Elasticsearch for my indexing on AWS or Google Cloud, but I may be running my App locally. So there'll be some hybrid place, but what I would say is for every application, 75% of your Comprende will be on the Cloud. So think of it like the Dev. So even for the On-prem app, you're not going to be a 100 percent On-prem. The competent, the billing materials will move to the Cloud, your Purse, your storage, because if you put it On-prem, you need to add all this, you need to have all the whole things to buy it and hire the people, so that's what is going to happen. So from a competent perspective, 70% of your bill of materials will move to the Cloud, even for an On-prem application. >> So, Of course, the susification of the industry in the last decade and in my three favorite companies last decade, you've worked for two of them, Tableau, ServiceNow, and Splunk. I want to ask you about those, but I'm interested in the potential disruption there. I mean, you've got these SAS companies, Salesforce of course is another one, but they can't get started in 1999. What do you see happening with those? I mean, we're basically building these sort of large SAS, platforms, now. Do you think that the Cloud native world that developers can come at this from an angle where they can disrupt those companies, or are they too entrenched? I mean, look at service now, I mean, I don't know, $80 billion market capital where they are, they bigger than Workday, I mean, just amazing how much they've grown and you feel like, okay, nothing can stop them, but there's always disruption in this industry, what are your thoughts on that. >> Not very good with, I think there'll be disrupted. So to me actually to your point, ServiceNow is now close to a 100 billion now, 95 billion market coverage, crazy. So from evaluation perspective, so I think the reason they'll be disrupted is that the SAS vendors that you talked about, ServiceNow, and all this plan, most of these services, they're truly not a multi-tenant or what do you call the Cloud Native. And that is the Accenture. So because of that, they will not be able to pass the savings back to the enterprises. So the cost economics, the economics that the Cloud provides because of the multi tenancy ability will not. The second reason there'll be disrupted is AI. So far, we talked about Cloud, but AI is the core. So it's not really Cloud Native, Dave, I look at the AI in a two-piece. AI is going to change, see all the SAS vendors were created 20 years back, if you remember, was an operator typing it, I don't respond administered we'll type a Splunk query. I don't need a human to type a query anymore, system will actually find it, that's what the whole security game has changed, right? So what's going to happen is if you believe in that, that AI, your score will disrupt all the SAS vendors, so one angle SAS is going to have is a Cloud. That's where you make the Cloud will take up because a SAS application will be Cloudified. Being SAS is not Cloud, right? Second thing is SAS will be also, I call it, will be AI-fied. So AI and machine learning will be trying to drive at the core so that I don't need that many licenses. I don't need that many humans. I don't need that many administrators to manage, I call them the tuners. Once you get a driverless car, you don't need a thousand tuners to tune your Tesla, or Google Waymo car. So the same philosophy will happen is your Dev Apps, your administrators, your service management, people that you need for service now, and these products, Zendesk with AI, will tremendously will disrupt. >> So you're saying, okay, so yeah, I was going to ask you, won't the SAS vendors, won't they be able to just put, inject AI into their platforms, and I guess I'm inferring saying, yeah, but a lot of the problems that they're solving, are going to go away because of AI, is that right? And automation and RPA and things of that nature, is that right? >> Yes and no. So I'll tell you what, sorry, you have asked a very good question, let's answer, let me rephrase that question. What you're saying is, "Why can't the existing SAS vendors do the AI?" >> Yes, right. >> Right, >> And there's a reason they can't do it is their pricing model is by number of seats. So I'm not going to come to Dave, and say, come on, come pay me less money. It's the same reason why a board and general lover build an electric car. They're selling 10 million gasoline cars. There's no incentive for me, I'm not going to do any AI, I'm going to put, I'm not going to come to you and say, hey, buy me a hundred less license next year from it. So that is one reason why AI, even though these guys do any AI, it's going to be just so I call it, they're going to, what do you call it, a whitewash, kind of like you put some paint brush on it, trying to show you some AI you did from a marketing dynamics. But at the core, if you really implement the AI with you take the driver out, how are you going to change the pricing model? And being a public company, you got to take a hit on the pricing model and the price, and it's going to have a stocking part. So that, to your earlier question, will somebody disrupt them? The person who is going to disrupt them, will disrupt them on the pricing model. >> Right. So I want to ask you about that, because we saw a Snowflake, and it's IPO, we were able to pour through its S-1, and they have a different pricing model. It's a true Cloud consumption model, Whereas of course, most SAS companies, they're going to lock you in for at least one year term, maybe more, and then, you buy the license, you got to pay X. If you, don't use it, you still got to pay for it. Snowflake's different, actually they have a different problem, that people are using it too much and the sea is driving the CFO crazy because the bill is going up and up and up, but to me, that's the right model, It's just like the Amazon model, if you can justify it, so how do you see the pricing, that consumption model is actually, you're seeing some of the On-prem guys at HPE, Dell, they're doing as a service. They're kind of taking a page out of the last decade SAS model, so I think pricing is a real tricky one, isn't it? >> No, you nailed it, you nailed it. So I think the way in which the Snowflake there, how the disruptors are data warehouse, that disrupted the open source vendors too. Snowflake distributed, imagine the playbook, you disrupted something as the $ 0, right? It's an open source with Cloudera, Hortonworks, Mapper, that whole big data that you want me to, or that market is this, that disrupting data warehouses like Netezza, Teradata, and the charging more money, they're making more money and disrupting at $0, because the pricing models by consumption that you talked about. CMT is going to happen in the service now, Zen Desk, well, 'cause their pricing one is by number of seats. People are going to say, "How are my users are going to ask?" right? If you're an employee help desk, you're back to your original health collaborative. I may be on Slack, I could be on zoom, I'll maybe on MS Teams, I'm going to ask by using usage model on Slack, tools by employees to service now is the pricing model that people want to pay for. The more my employees use it, the more value I get. But I don't want to pay by number of seats, so the vendor, who's going to figure that out, and that's where I look, if you know me, I'm right over as I started, that's what I've tried to push that model look, I love that because that's the core of how you want to change the new game. >> I agree. I say, kill me with that problem, I mean, some people are trying to make it a criticism, but you hit on the point. If you pay more, it's only because you're getting more value out of it. So I wanted to flip the switch here a little bit and take a customer angle. Something that you've been on all sides. And I want to talk a little bit about strategies, you've been a strategist, I guess, once a strategist, always a strategist. How should organizations be thinking about their approach to Cloud, it's cost different for different industries, but, back when the cube started, financial services Cloud was a four-letter word. But of course the age of company is going to matter, but what's the framework for figuring out your Cloud strategy to get to your 70% and really take advantage of the economics? Should I be Mono Cloud, Multi-Cloud, Multi-vendor, what would you advise? >> Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, I actually call it the tech stack. Actually you and John taught me that what was the tech stack, like the lamp stack, I think there is a new Cloud stack needs to come, and that I think the bottomline there should be... First of all, anything with storage should be in the Cloud. I mean, if you want to start, whether you are, financial, doesn't matter, there's no way. I come from cybersecurity side, I've seen it. Your attackers will be more with insiders than being on the Cloud, so storage has to be in the Cloud and encompass compute whoever it is. If you really want to use containers and Kubernetes, it has to be in the public Cloud, leverage that have the computer on their databases. That's where it can be like if your data is so strong, maybe run it On-prem, maybe have it on a hosted model for when it comes to database, but there you have a choice between hybrid Cloud and public Cloud choice. Then on top when it comes to App, the app itself, you can run locally or anywhere, the App and database. Now the areas that you really want to go after to migrate is look at anything that's an enterprise workload that you don't need people to manage it. You want your own team to move up in the career. You don't want thousand people looking at... you don't want to have a, for example, IT administrators to call central people to the people to manage your compute storage. That workload should be more, right? You already saw Sierra moved out to Salesforce. We saw collaboration already moved out. Zoom is not running locally. You already saw SharePoint with knowledge management mode up, right? With a box, drawbacks, you name anything. The next global mode is a SAS workloads, right? I think Workday service running there, but work data will go into the Cloud. I bet at some point Zendesk, ServiceNow, then either they put it on the public Cloud, or they have to create a product and public Cloud. To your point, these public Cloud vendors are at $2 trillion market cap. They're they're bigger than the... I call them nation States. >> Yeah, >> So I'm servicing though. I mean, there's a 2 trillion market gap between Amazon and Azure, I'm not going to compete with them. So I want to take this workload to run it there. So all these vendors, if you see that's where Shandra from Adobe is pushing this right, Adobe, Workday, Anaplan, all the SAS vendors we'll move them into the public Cloud within these vendors. So those workloads need to move out, right? So that all those things will start, then you'll start migrating, but I call your procurement. That's where the RPA comes in. The other thing that we didn't talk about, back to your first question, what is the next 10 years of Cloud will be RPA? That third piece to Cloud is RPA because if you have your systems On-prem, I can't automate them. I have to do a VPN into your house there and then try to automate your systems, or your procurement, et cetera. So all these RPA vendors are still running On-prem, most of them, whether it's UI path automation anywhere. So the Cloud should be where the brain should be. That's what I call them like the octopus analogy, the brain is in the Cloud, the tentacles are everywhere, they should manage it. But if my tentacles have to do a VPN with your house to manage it, I'm always will have failures. So if you look at the why RPA did not have the growth, like the Snowflake, like the Cloud, because they are running it On-prem, most of them still. 80% of the RP revenue is On-prem, running On-prem, that needs to be called clarified. So AI, RPA and the SAS, are the three reasons Cloud will take off. >> Awesome. Thank you for that. Now I want to flip the switch again. You're an investor or a multi-tool player here, but so if you're, let's say you're an ecosystem player, and you're kind of looking at the landscape as you're in an investor, of course you've invested in the Cloud, because the Cloud is where it's at, but you got to be careful as an ecosystem player to pick a spot that both provides growth, but allows you to have a moat as, I mean, that's why I'm really curious to see how Snowflake's going to compete because they're competing with AWS, Microsoft, and Google, unlike, Frank, when he was at service now, he was competing with BMC and with on-prem and he crushed it, but the competitors are much more capable here, but it seems like they've got, maybe they've got a moat with MultiCloud, and that whole data sharing thing, we'll see. But, what about that? Where are the opportunities? Where's that white space? And I know there's a lot of white space, but what's the framework to look at, from an investor standpoint, or even a CEO standpoint, where you want to put place your bets. >> No, very good question, so look, I did something. We talk as an investor in the board with many companies, right? So one thing that says as an investor, if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Docker or a computer, there's no way nobody's going to invest. So that we can motor off, even if you want to do object storage or a block storage, I mean, I've been an investor board member of so many storage companies, there's no way as an industry, I'll write a check for a compute or storage, right? If you want to create a next generation network, like either NetSuite, or restart Juniper, Cisco, there is no way. But if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Viper for remote working environments, where AI is at the core, I'm interested in that, right? So if you look at how the packets are dropped, there's no intelligence in either not switching today. The packets come, I do it. The intelligence is not built into the network with AI level. So if somebody comes with an AI, what good is all this NVD, our GPS, et cetera, if you cannot do wire speed, packet inspection, looking at the content and then route the traffic. If I see if it's a video package, but in UN Boston, there's high interview day of they should be loading our package faster, because you are a premium ISP. That intelligence has not gone there. So you will see, and that will be a bad people will happen in the network, switching, et cetera, right? So that is still an angle. But if you work and it comes to platform services, remember when I was at Pivotal and VMware, all models was my boss, that would, yes, as a platform, service is a game already won by the Cloud guys. >> Right. (indistinct) >> Silicon Valley Investors, I don't think you want to invest in past services, right? I mean, you might come with some lecture edition database to do some updates, there could be some game, let's say we want to do a time series database, or some metrics database, there's always some small angle, but the opportunity to go create a national database there it's very few. So I'm kind of eliminating all the black spaces, right? >> Yeah. >> We have the white spaces that comes in is the SAS level. Now to your point, if I'm Amazon, I'm going to compete with Snowflake, I have Redshift. So this is where at some point, these Cloud platforms, I call them aircraft carriers. They're not going to stay on the aircraft carriers, they're going to own the land as well. So they're going to move up to the SAS space. The question is you want to create a SAS service like CRM. They are not going to create a CRM like service, they may not create a sales force and service now, but if you're going to add a data warehouse, I can very well see Azure, Google, and AWS, going to create something to compute a Snowflake. Why would I not? It's so close to my database and data warehouse, I already have Redshift. So that's going to be nightlights, same reason, If you look at Netflix, you have a Netflix and you have Amazon prime. Netflix runs on Amazon, but you have Amazon prime. So you have the same model, you have Snowflake, and you'll have Redshift. The both will help each other, there'll be a... What do you call it? Coexistence will happen. But if you really want to invest, you want to invest in SAS companies. You do not want to be investing in a compliment players. You don't want to a feature. >> Yeah, that's great, I appreciate that perspective. And I wonder, so obviously Microsoft play in SAS, Google's got G suite. And I wonder if people often ask the Andy Jassy, you're going to move up the stack, you got to be an application, a SAS vendor, and you never say never with Atavist, But I wonder, and we were talking to Jerry Chen about this, years ago on theCube, and his angle was that Amazon will play, but they'll play through developers. They'll enable developers, and they'll participate, they'll take their, lick off the cone. So it's going to be interesting to see how directly Amazon plays, but at some point you got Tam expansion, you got to play in that space. >> Yeah, I'll give you an example of knowing, I got acquired by a couple of times by EMC. So I learned a lot from Joe Tucci and Paul Merage over the years. see Paul and Joe, what they did is to look at how 20 years, and they are very close to Boston in your area, Joe, what games did is they used to sell storage, but you know what he did, he went and bought the Apps to drive them. He bought like Legato, he bought Documentum, he bought Captiva, if you remember how he acquired all these companies as a services, he bought VMware to drive that. So I think the good angle that Microsoft has is, I'm a SAS player, I have dynamics, I have CRM, I have SharePoint, I have Collaboration, I have Office 365, MS Teams for users, and then I have the platform as Azure. So I think if I'm Amazon, (indistinct). I got to own the apps so that I can drive this workforce on my platform. >> Interesting. >> Just going to developers, like I know Jerry Chan, he was my peer a BMF. I don't think just literally to developers and that model works in open source, but the open source game is pretty much gone, and not too many companies made money. >> Well, >> Most companies pretty much gone. >> Yeah, he's right. Red hats not bad idea. But it's very interesting what you're saying there. And so, hey, its why Oracle wants to have Tiktok, running on their platform, right? I mean, it's going to. (laughing) It's going to drive that further integration. I wanted to ask you something, you were talking about, you wouldn't invest in storage or compute, but I wonder, and you mentioned some commentary about GPU's. Of course the videos has been going crazy, but they're now saying, okay, how do we expand our Team, they make the acquisition of arm, et cetera. What about this DPU thing, if you follow that, that data processing unit where they're like hyper dis-aggregation and then they reaggregate, and as an offload and really to drive data centric workloads. Have you looked at that at all? >> I did, I think, and that's a good angle. So I think, look, it's like, it goes through it. I don't know if you remember in your career, we have seen it. I used to get Silicon graphics. I saw the first graphic GPU, right? That time GPU was more graphic processor unit, >> Right, yeah, work stations. >> So then become NPUs at work processing units, right? There was a TCP/IP office offloading, if you remember right, there was like vector processing unit. So I think every once in a while the industry, recreated this separate unit, as a co-processor to the main CPU, because main CPU's inefficient, and it makes sense. And then Google created TPU's and then we have the new world of the media GPU's, now we have DPS all these are good, but what's happening is, all these are driving for machine learning, AI for the training period there. Training period Sometimes it's so long with the workloads, if you can cut down, it makes sense. >> Yeah. >> Because, but the question is, these aren't so specialized in nature. I can't use it for everything. >> Yup. >> I want Ideally, algorithms to be paralyzed, I want the training to be paralyzed, I want so having deep use and GPS are important, I think where I want to see them as more, the algorithm, there should be more investment from the NVIDIA's and these guys, taking the algorithm to be highly paralyzed them. (indistinct) And I think that still has not happened in industry yet. >> All right, so we're pretty much out of time, but what are you doing these days? Where are you spending your time, are you still in Stealth, give us a little glimpse. >> Yeah, no, I'm out of the Stealth, I'm actually the CEO of Aisera now, Aisera, obviously I invested with them, but I'm the CEO of Aisero. It's funded by Menlo ventures, Norwest, True, along with Khosla ventures and Ram Shriram is a big investor. Robin's on the board of Google, so these guys, look, we are going out to the collaboration game. How do you automate customer service and support for employees and then users, right? In this whole game, we talked about the Zoom, Slack and MS Teams, that's what I'm spending time, I want to create next generation service now. >> Fantastic. Muddu, I always love having you on you, pull punches, you tell it like it is, that you're a great visionary technologist. Thanks so much for coming on theCube, and participating in our program. >> Dave, it's always a pleasure speaking to you sir. Thank you. >> Okay. Keep it right there, there's more coming from Cuba and Cloud right after this break. (slow music)

(thoughtful electronic music) >> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Enterprise applications are an enormous market, and they're enormously important to organizations globally. Essentially, the world's businesses are running on enterprise applications. Companies' processes are wired into these systems, and the investments that they make in people, process, and technology are vital to these companies' success. But it's complicated because many of these systems are decades old. Markets have changed, but the ERP system for example fundamentally hasn't. Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. This week, we're going to do a data download on the enterprise software space, and put forth some themes in our thesis around this very important segment. I'd like to do a shout-out to my friend Sarbjeet Johal, who helped me frame this segment, and he's a strategic thinker and he shared some excellent insights for this episode. What I'd first like to do is let's lay out the scope of what we're going to talk about today. So we're going to focus on the core enterprise apps that companies rely on to run their businesses. Talkin' about the systems of record here, the ERP, the financial systems, HR, CRMs, service management we'll put in there. We may touch on some of the other areas, but this is core that we're going to drill into. This is a big, big market. Customers spend many hundreds of billions of dollars in this area, you could argue about a half a trillion. And it's a mature market, as you'll see from the data. Look, it's good to be in the technology business today. This business is doing better than most, and within the technology business, it's better to be in software because of the economics and scale. And if you have a SaaS cloud model, it's even better. But the market, it is fragmented, not nearly as much as it used to be, but there are many specialized areas where leaders have emerged. ServiceNow and ITSM or Workday and HCM are good examples of companies that've specialized and then exploded, first as we saw ServiceNow blow past Workday's valuation. It was nearly 2x at one point. Now, that was before Workday crushed its earnings this week. It's up 15% today. ServiceNow took a slight breather earlier this month, but it's up on Workday sympathy today. Salesforce also beat earnings, and of course replaced Exxon Mobile on the DOW Industrials, can you imagine that? But let's bring it back to this digital transformation that you hear about. This is the big cliche from all the tech companies and especially software players. Now a lot of this DX, I sometimes call it, is related to old systems. It's especially true for the mega-caps like Oracle, SAP, PeopleSoft, JD Edwards, and even Microsoft. Take ERP and some of the mature products for example, like Oracle R12, or SAP R3 or R4. Many of these systems were put in place 15 years ago, and yeah, they're going to need to transform. They are burnt in. They were installed in what, 2005? It was before the iPhone, before social media, before machine learning and AI made its big comeback, and before cloud. These systems were built on the 1.0 of cloud. The businesses have changed but the software really hasn't. It happens every 10 to 15 years, companies have to upgrade or re-implement their systems, and optimize for the way business now runs, because they had to be more competitive and more agile. They can't do it on their old software. And God help you if you made a bunch of custom modifications. Good lucking tryin' to rip those out. And this is why pure play companies in the cloud like ServiceNow and Workday have done so well. They're best-of-breed and they're cloud, and it sets up this age-old battle that we always talk about, best-of-breed versus integrated suites. So let's bring in some of the other themes and feedback that we get from the community. Now we've definitely seen this schism play out between on-prem and cloud plays. And that's created some challenges for the legacy players. People working remotely has meant less data center, less on-prem action for the legacy companies. Now, they have gone out and acquired to get to the cloud and/or they've had to rearchitect their software like Oracle has done with Fusion. But think about something like Oracle Financials. Oracle is tryna migrate them to Fusion, or think about SAP R3, with R4, SAP pushing HANA. All this is going to cloud-based SaaS. So the companies that've been pure play SaaS are doing better, and I say quasi-modern on this slide because Salesforce, ServiceNow, Workday, even Coupa, NetSuite which is now Oracle, SuccessFactors which SAP purchased, et cetera, these are actually pretty old companies, the earlier part of the 2000s or in the case of Salesforce, 1999. And you're seeing some really different pricing models in the market. Things are moving quickly to an OPEX model. You have the legacy perpetual pricing, and it's giving way to subscriptions, and now we even see companies like Datadog and Snowflake with so-called consumption-based pricing models, priced as a true cloud. And we think that that's going to eventually spill into the core SaaS applications. Now one of the concerns that we've heard from the community is that some of the traditional players that were able to hide from COVID earlier this year might not have enough deferred revenue dry powder to continue to power through the pandemic, but so far the picture continues to look pretty strong for the software companies. We'll get into some of that. Now, finally, this is a premise that I talked to Sarbjeet about, the disruption perhaps comes from cloud and developer ecosystems. Y'know I remember John Furrier and I had a conversation awhile back with Jerry Chen from Greylock. It was on theCUBE, and it was kind of like, went like this. People were talking about whether AWS was going to enter the applications market, and the thesis here is no, or not in the near future. Rather, the disruptive play, and this is really Sarbjeet's premise, is to provide infrastructure for innovation, and a PaaS layer for differentiation, and developers will build modern cloud-native apps to compete with the SaaS players on top of this. This is intriguing to me, and is likely going to play out over the next decade, but it's going to take a while, because these SaaS players are, they're very large, and they continue to pour money into their platforms. Now let's talk about the shift from CAPEX to OPEX and bring in some ETR data. Of course, this was well in play pre-COVID, but the trend has been accelerating. This chart shows data from the August ETR survey, and it was asking people to express their split between CAPEX and OPEX spend, and as you can see, the trend is clear. Goes from 48% last year, 55% today, and moving to over 62% OPEX a year from now. It's no surprise, but I think it could happen even faster depending on the technical debt that organizations have to shed. And hence, the attractiveness again of the SaaS cloud players. So now let's visualize some of the major players in this space, and do some comparisons. Here we show one of our favorite views, and what we're doing here is we juxtapose net score on the vertical axis with market share on the horizontal plane. Remember, net score is a measure of spending momentum. Each quarter, ETR asks buyers, are you planning to spend more or less, and they essentially subtract the lesses from the mores to derive net score. Market share on the other hand is a measure of pervasiveness in the dataset, and it's derived from the number of mentions in the sector divided by the total mentions in the survey, and you can see each metric in that embedded table that we put in there. So I said earlier, this was a pretty mature market and you can see that in the table. Eh, kind of middle-of-the-road net scores with pretty large shared ends, i.e. responses in the dataset, but a lot of red. There are some standouts, however, as you see in the upper right, namely, ServiceNow and Salesforce. These are two pretty remarkable companies. ServiceNow entered the market as a help desk or service management player, and has dramatically expanded its TAM, really to the point where they're aiming at $5 billion in revenue. Salesforce was the first in cloud CRM, and is pushing 20 billion in revenue. I've said many times, these companies are on a collision course, and I stand by that, as any of the next great software companies, and these are two, are going to compete with all the mega-caps, including Oracle, SAP, and Microsoft, and they'll bump into each other. Which brings us to those super-cap companies. You see Microsoft with Dynamics, they show up like they always do. I'm like a broken record on Microsoft. I mean they're everywhere in the survey data. Now Oracle and SAP, they've been extremely acquisitive over the years, and you can see some of their acquisitions on this chart. I've said many times in theCUBE that Larry Olsen used to denigrate his competitors for writing checks instead of code, but he saw the consolidation trend happening in the ERT, ERP space before anyone else did, and with the $10 billion PeopleSoft acquisition in 2005, set off a trend in enterprise software that did a few things. First, it solidified Oracle's position further up the stack. It also set Dave Duffield and Aneel Bhusri off to create a next-generation cloud software company, Workday, which you can see in the chart has a net score up there with ServiceNow, Salesforce, and Coupa, and it also led to Oracle Fusion Middleware, which is designed as an integration point for all these software components, and this is really important because Oracle is moving everything into its cloud. And you can see that its on-prem net score, which puts it deep into negative territory. Now SAP, take a look at them, they have much higher net scores than Oracle, and you can see it's acquired SaaS properties like Ariba, Concur, and SuccessFactors, which have decent momentum. But you know, SAP, and we've talked about this before, is not without its challenges. With SAP, HANA is the answer to all of its problems. The problem is that it's not necessarily the answer to all of SAP's customers' problems. Most of SAP's legacy customers run SAP on Oracle or other databases. HANA is used for the in-memory query workload, but most customers are going to continue to use other databases for their systems of record. So this adds complexity. But HANA is very good at the query piece. However, SAP never did what Oracle did with Fusion, which as you might recall, took more than a decade to get right. HANA is SAP's architectural attempt to unify the SAP portfolio and get, (laughs) really get off of Oracle, but it's many years away, and it's unclear when or if they'll ever get there. All right, let's move on. Here's a look at a similar set of companies, but I wanted to show you this view because it gives you a detailed look at ETR's net score approach, and it tells us a few things more. And remember, this is a survey of almost 1,200 technology buyers. That's the N, that's the respondent rate. So this chart shows the net score granularity for the enterprise players that we were just discussing. Let me explain this. Net score is actually more detailed than what I said before. It comprises responses in four categories. The lime green is new adoptions. The forest green is growth in spending of 6% or more, the gray is flat spend, the pink is a budget shrink of 6% or greater, and the red is retiring the platform. So what this tells us is that there's a big fat middle of stay the same. The lime green is pretty small, but you can see, NetSuite jumps out for new adoptions because they've been very aggressive going after smaller and mid-sized companies, and Coupa, the spend management specialist, shows reasonably strong new adoptions. Now ServiceNow is interesting to me. Not a ton of new adoptions. They've landed the ship and really penetrated larger organizations. And while new adoptions are not off the charts, look at the spending more categories, it's very very strong at 46%. And the other really positive thing for ServiceNow is there's very little red. This company is a beast. Now Salesforce similarly, not tons of new adoptions, but 40% spend more. For a company that size, that's pretty impressive. Workday similarly has a very strong spending profile. At the bottom of the chart, you see a fair amount of red, as we saw on the XY graph. But now, let's take another view of net score. Think of this as a zoom in, which takes those bar charts but shows it in a pie format for individual companies. So we're showing this here for ServiceNow, Workday, and Salesforce, and we've superimposed the net score for these three in green, so you can see ServiceNow at 48%, very good for a company headed toward five billion. Same with Workday, 40% for a company of similar size, and Salesforce has a comparable net score, and is significantly larger than those two revenue-wise. Now this is the same view, this next chart's the same view for SAP and Oracle, and you can see substantially lower than the momentum leaders in terms of net score. But these are much larger companies. SAP's about 33 billion, Oracle's closer to 40 billion. But Oracle especially has seen some headwinds from organizations spending less which drags its net score down. But you're not seeing a lot of replacement in Oracle's base because as I said at the top, these systems are fossilized and many are running on Oracle. And the vast majority of mission-critical workloads are especially running on Oracle. Now remember, this isn't a revenue-weighted view. Oracle charges a steep premium based on the number of cores, and it has a big maintenance stream. So while its net score is kind of sucky, its cashflow is not. All right, let's wrap it up here. We have a very large and mature market. But the semi-modern SaaS players like Salesforce and ServiceNow and Workday, they've gone well beyond escape velocity and solidified their positions as great software companies. Others are trying to follow that suit and compete with the biggest of the bigs, i.e. SAP and Oracle. Now I didn't talk much about Microsoft, but as always they show up prominently. They're huge and they're everywhere in this dataset. What I think is interesting is the competitive dynamics that we talked about earlier. These kind of newer SaaS leaders, they're disrupting Oracle and SAP, but they're also increasingly bumping into each other. You know, ServiceNow has HR for example, and they say that they don't compete with Workday, and that's true. But y'know, these two companies, they eye each other and they angle for account control. Same thing with Salesforce. It's that software mindset. The bigger a software company gets, the more they think they can own the world, because it's software, and if you're good at writing code and you see an opportunity that can add value for your customers, you tend to go after it. Now, we didn't talk much about M&A, but that's going to continue here, especially as these companies look for TAM expansion and opportunities to bring in new capabilities, particularly around data, analytics, machine learning, AI and the like, and don't forget industry specialization. You've seen Oracle pick up a number of industry plays and as digital transformation continues, you'll see more crossing of the industry streams because it's data. Now, the disruption isn't blatantly obvious in this market right now, other than SaaS clouds going after SAP and Oracle, and it's because these companies are deeply entrenched in their customer organizations and change is risky. But the cloud developer, the open source API trend, it could lead to disruptions, but I wouldn't expect that until the second half of this decade as cloud ecosystems really begin to evolve and take hold. Okay, well that's it for today. Remember, these Breaking Analysis episodes, they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen so please subscribe. I publish weekly on Wikibon.com and SiliconANGLE.com, so check that out, and please do comment on my LinkedIn posts. Don't forget, check out ETR.plus for all the survey action. Get in touch on Twitter, I'm @dvellante, or email me at David.Vellante@siliconangle.com. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching everybody. Be well, and we'll see you next time. (thoughtful electronic music)

>>Live from Orlando, Florida. It's the cube covering Microsoft ignite brought to you by Cohesity. >>Good afternoon everyone and welcome back to the cubes live coverage of Microsoft ignite. We are wrapping up three days of wall to wall coverage. Back to back interviews. I'm your host Rebecca Knight, alongside my cohost Stu Miniman. We have saved the best for last. We have BJ Jenkins, president and CEO of Barracuda networks. Thank you so much for coming on the cube. Feel a lot of pressure on internet. It's going to be great. Why don't you start by Barracuda. I think of that heartsong tell our viewers a little bit about, about your business, what you do. >>Yeah. Um, Barracuda is a company focused in the security industry, primarily on email security and network and application security. Uh, we have over 220,000 customers, uh, since we were founded a little over 15 years ago. And um, you know, we have a passion for making our customers secure and safe and being able to run their business. And we're a great partner in Microsoft, so, uh, they really help us drive our business. >>Yeah. So, so much to catch up, PJ, since it's been many years since you've been on the program, you were new in the role, but let's start with that Microsoft relationship here. We've been spending all week talking through all of the various environments. Talk about a little bit about your joint customers, the relationship and what's happening there. >>Yeah. I joined Barracuda seven years ago. Yesterday was my anniversary. And um, when I came into Barracuda, it was primarily at the time focused on a kind of small and midsize businesses. And most of those businesses ran Microsoft exchange or ran some form of Microsoft applications. And really that was the start of our partnership, realizing how important Microsoft was and it's grown. We were the first, uh, security company to put our firewalls in Azure. And that was over five years ago. And I think being first with a partner like Microsoft who is really at that point trying to catch up with Amazon and you know, Satya was, we're starting to drive the business in that direction. Uh, it gave us a unique vantage point in the partnership and it's grown from there. We were, uh, the Azure partner the year in 2016, uh, across their business. Um, we do joint development with them. We do joint go to market activities. And when you look around and you see 30,000 customers here, it's a, it's a good, good place to focus for a company like ourselves. >>Yeah. Well the, the, the changes in Microsoft business has had a ripple effect in the ecosystem, not only the launch of Azure, but I mean a big push office three 65 you talk about there's gotta be a difference between I'm rolling out exchange servers and well, it's all in the cloud. We know that customers still need to think sick as strong about security when they go to SAS Deere. If your customers figured that out yet. >>Yeah. I think, um, the trends that played out on prom play out in the cloud, um, how am I gonna secure my applications? How am I going to secure my data, my network? Um, and then the individuals that are using that cause at the end of the day, the individuals tend to be the weakest link in the security chain. And, um, you know, Mike, what I like is Microsoft has done a really good job improving their security posture, the base level that they provide to their customers every single day improves. And our job is to innovate on top of that and make them even safer. And, um, Microsoft's position in the industry too has been one where they want to be a ecosystem. They want to partner with third parties to help their customers move from on prem into Azure. And they know they're not gonna be able to do it on their own. >>So they've upped their game. We've got to up our game and we do it jointly, which is the nice thing. I, I joke with people. When I was at EMC and I used to go to Redmond, I'd go with battle armor on because there was not gonna be a fun meeting, uh, who's going to be, how Microsoft was going to hurt our business. And now I go to Redmond and you're embraced as a partner. They want to understand what customers and partners are thinking. They jointly plan with you. It's a completely different tone and tenor, which has been nice for us. >>So it is a scary world out there. And as we know that the threat environment is changing, hackers are becoming more sophisticated. I wonder if you could just set the scene for our viewers and just talk about security challenges in general and then we'll get into the specifics of the new solutions that you've announced here. >>Yeah, it's, threats come from everywhere and I think it's hard to boil it down and make it simple at times. But one of the stories I tell, uh, investors and customers about how fast the world is changing, uh, when I came on board, CEO's are obviously targets for hackers and the types of phishing mails I would get at that point. Um, and they would be very obvious. I've gone by BJ my entire life. On the website it says William Jenkins. And so the phishing emails would come in and say, you know, today fog, no, Hey, can you wire money here, William? Right. And so there was just base level intelligence. Nowadays they use LinkedIn, they use fee, they create social graphs. They study your communication forms, they look, they know how you're organized and they target the people. It will have, I always signed my emails past comma, BJ, the best fishing males have that in there. >>They've discovered that they've incorporated that they, so the, just the level of intelligence, the sophistication of what hackers do today, uh, has exponentially changed. And, you know, we're fortunate you can, we have more computing power. We have more artificial intelligence that we can apply to stop them. But the game just keeps getting escalated. And it's a, it's why the security industry has been strong. It's why there's so many companies out there. We've got to keep getting better. Um, but it's, it's a scary world. It's, it's, you know, you can never, never rest and never think you're ahead. You always gotta keep attacking it. >>So BJ, you had a number of announcements. Barracuda did, not nearly as many as Microsoft did, but give us the highlights if you would. >>Yeah. Um, so a number number of things announced here. Uh, first we're part of, uh, Misa, the Microsoft intelligence security association. So we're proud, proud to be a part of that. At launch. Um, we announced, uh, the cloud application platform security platform and the big announcement for us around that was our launch of as a service, uh, that's run on Azure. And, uh, we've always had a strong application approach. We've got integrated, um, detection, DDoSs uh, the O OS top 20 are all in Kurt corporate into our platform. What we've done is really leveraged Microsoft scale to run a very easy, simple to deploy a web application security platform, uh, that takes advantage of Microsoft scale and resiliency and brings that to our customers. Uh, we did a study, you know, only 10% of the websites in the world today are protected. So 90% of the web sites and web applications in the world today run on protected. >>We think this is a great way to go out and, um, help protect more of those. And then finally, um, you know, we announced Microsoft announced their V land solution and we have done joint development with them. We'll continue to innovate here, but we announced obviously our solution that we'll run, uh, with Microsoft's B when we're the only ones who can provide a customer really with multiple lengths run on Microsoft backbone, they can really run their data center. Now the corporate data center out of Azure, uh, we give them traffic prioritization, fail over resiliency that customers need when they're making those types of decisions. So there was more than that, but that was a lot of good stuff for us. We're excited about it. >>What does the recent announcement that Microsoft has won the Jetta contract, does that have any impact on Barracuda's business? Is that, >>well, I think anytime Microsoft wins business, it's a good thing because we're partnering with them. That contract is so big and, uh, has a lot of different elements and, and certainly security is a part of it. So we think there's aspects where we can play. I did hear, I think, um, Oracle was suing and I think AWS, so this may have a lot of legs before it becomes real. But it, I, you know, I think it continues to show that customers want to utilize, um, the scale breadth and depth of solutions that the cloud companies are bringing. And, you know, we view that as opportunity because security is an important element to making that work for those customers. >>So PJ, one to put aside the Microsoft stuff for a second here, since last we talk barracudas gone private and the security industry feels like it just growing so fast. You know, every week we're getting approached by new startups, heavy investment and the like, give us a little bit about your position has a CIO and CEO in this space. Uh, and you know, the love, a little bit of a note. We know it happened a few years back now, but going private when so many companies have, >>yeah, they're, you know, obviously there's a lot of funded companies in the security market. You know, we were in, uh, we had been public for, for four years. Um, a company that's been around 15 years where we were a profitable security company to, we were unique. We weren't, uh, the high flyer growth, but we were growing, you know, kind of, uh, low double digits with profitability, but there were investments that needed to be made in the business. Uh, we were running our transaction system on code, the founder wrote. Um, so there were investments we really needed to make to go from, you know, the 400, 500 million Mark to 1 billion mark. And so going private with a partner like Thoma Bravo, um, who really understands this industry has allowed us to reset the strategy and focus on, uh, the highest growth areas for us, which are email and network and application security. >>Um, they've helped us, we've invested over 20 million in internal systems, um, modern systems, Salesforce, NetSuite, uh, that we think give us the foundational elements to scale to $1 billion. And, um, you know, they combine that with operational expertise that they bring in to help us get more customers to the 220,000. Uh, one of the other interesting things for us too is, um, well we have 220,000 customers. We have 50 of the fortune 100. We have 250 of the fortune 1000 and as the movement, as, as customers have move to cloud, our solutions have become more relevant for customers of scale. And so they've given us the backing really to make that transition into that. So I liked not having to go on public conference calls every quarter. That's been a really nice thing. Um, but they've been a great partner for us. So we've, I think what you can think of us as we focused on areas that we think are the highest priority to our customers. >>Yeah, PJ, it also, we talked about there's so many startups in this space out there. The profile security keeps getting raised. Pat Gelsinger, VMware, you know, pounding the table saying that security needs to do over the, he just purchased black Boston based company that was public. You know, I talked to my friends that had been deep in the security industry and they scoff a little bit about, you know, we've been doing this for a long time. Barracuda is a company that has been around for quite a number of years. How's the industry doing? What do we need to do better? And how do you look at that landscape? >>Yeah, I, you know, I love pats energy and vigor, but there's no silver bullet that's gonna solve every problem out there. I do think, uh, where the industry is getting better is one on sharing information. You can see alliances, associations that have been formed. Um, you know, even with the cloud providers, we're actively sharing information and sharing of that information. We'll make more robust solutions first. Um, second you're seeing vendors go more towards platform where they're offering a larger, so the, the quality of solutions are getting better. And I do think there's consolidation happening where there, there are going to be certain segments of the market where you don't need 15 solutions. You really need, you know, one not from a particular player. So I think you'll see more, uh, consolidation occur around that. And you know, certainly that's been a trend we've been on in terms of integrating our solutions, making them easier to deploy and use for the customers. And then, you know, I think the last part of this is regulation is really a, it's still behind, but it's finally catching up and there's an interest in it. And I think in partnership with the industry, we can get our customers in a better position, a better security posture. So, you know, I, um, there will be consolidation over over time. Uh, you know, I've seen a map, I think there's 3000 security companies in all different segments that won't last forever. And, uh, it'll get easier for customers over time, is my belief. >>So with regulation, do you want to work in partnership with regulators? I mean, how do you, to help them understand the industry first of all and understand the dangers and the risks? I mean, how do you see the future of regulation for this industry? >>First of all, there's a large education process for legislators in general. You have to look no further than when Mark Zuckerberg got questioned by Congress. And the questions he were getting asked were not the best questions. Um, but you do have people who understand this industry and you can look at regulations like GDPR. You know, California's coming out data privacy law now and they're never perfect, but they're good foundational elements to start. And they're helping customers, um, get more aware of what they have to do to be secure and they're helping us explain to customers the things you can do to be in a better security posture. And so there's a continuum around this. We're in the early days, I, there's still a lot of education that has to go on, but when you see, >>start getting passed, it's a good step in the right direction. And by my estimation, BJ, we did save the best for last. Thank you so much for coming on the cube. That was terrific. Sorry it took so long. I'm Rebecca and I first two minutes and that wraps up three days of coverage at Microsoft ignite at the cube. Thank you so much for tuning in and we will see you next time.

>> Narrator: Live from Washington, D.C., it's theCUBE covering Boomi World 19. Brought to you by Boomi. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. I'm Lisa Martin, John Furrier is my co-host, and we are at Boomi World 2019 in Washington, D.C. Very pleased to be joined by the founder of Boomi and the co-founder and CEO of Guru, Rick Nucci. Hey, Rick. >> Hello. >> Lisa: Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me, this is very cool setup. >> Lisa: Yeah, isn't it?! >> Rick: Yeah. >> So this is a founder of Boomi. It's pretty cool to have a celebrity on our stage. >> Rick: I'm not a celebrity. (laughs) >> (laughs) Talk to us about all that back in the day back in Philadelphia when you had this idea for what now has become a company that has 9,000+ customers in 80+ countries. >> Yeah, I'm beyond proud of this team and just how well they have done and made this business into what it is today. Yeah, way back in 2007, we were really looking at the integration market, and back then, cloud was really an unknown future. It was creeping up the Hype Cycle of the Gartner. Hype Cycle's my favorite thing they do. A lot of people were dismissing it as a fad, and we were early adopters of cloud internally at Boomi. We were early users of Salesforce and NetSuite and just thought and made a bet and a lot of this stuff is luck as any founder will tell you, any honest founder will tell you. And recognize that, hey, if the world were to move to cloud, how would you actually think about the integration problem? Because it would be very different than how you would think about it in the on-prem days when you have everything in your own data center behind your own four walls. In this world, everything's different. Security's a huge deal, the way data moves and has to mediate between firewalls is a big deal. And none of these products are built like this and so, really wanted as a team, and I remember these early conversations and had the willingness to take a big bet and swing for the fences and what I mean by that is really build a product from the ground up in this new paradigm, new cloud, and take a bet and say, hey, if cloud does take off, this will be awesome for Boomi. If not, well, we'll be in the line of all the other startups that have come and gone. And I think we ended up in a good spot. >> Yeah, that's a great point, Rick, about the founders being honest. And a lot of it is hard work, but having a vision and making multiple bets and big bets. I remember, when EC2 came out, it was a startup dream, too, by the way. You could just purchase a data center. But it wasn't fully complete, it was actually growing very fast. More services were coming on, they were web services, so that was API-based concepts back then. When was the crossover point for you guys going, "okay, we got this, the bets are coming in. "We're going to double down, we're going to double down on this." What were some of those moments where you started to get visibility that was a good bet? And what did you do? >> Yeah, what it really was was the rise of SaaS, very specifically, and the rise of business applications that were being re-architected in the cloud. And everybody knew about Salesforce, but there weren't a lot of other things back then. And there was NetSuite and a handful of others, but then, you started to see additional business units start to build cloud, and you had, in the HR space, with success factors in Taleo and marketing automation space with Eloqua and Marketo. CRM space, we all know that story, e-commerce space procurement, and you start to see these best-of-breed products rise up which is amazing, but as that was happening, it was proliferating the integration problem. And so what became really clear to us, I think, as we were going through this and finding product market fit for Boomi, again, back in 2007, 2008, that was the pattern that emerged, like hey, every time someone buys one of these products, they are going to have to integrate 'cause you're talking about employee data, customer data. You have to integrate this with your other systems and that was going to create an opportunity for us and that was where we were like, okay, I think we're onto something. >> You know, to date, we've been doing theCUBE for 10 years. We made a big bet that people, authentic conversation would be a good bet, turns out it worked. We love it, things going great, but now, we're living in a world now that's getting more complex and I want to get your thoughts that Dave Vellante, myself, Stu who have been talking about how clouds changed and we were goofing on the Web 2.0 metaphor by saying, Cloud 1.0, Cloud 2.0. But I want to get your thoughts on how you might see this because, if you say Cloud 1.0 was Amazon, compute storage, AtScale, cloud NATO, all started there. Pretty straightforward if you're going to be born in the cloud, then you could work with some things there, but to bring multicloud and for enterprises to adopt with this integration challenge, Cloud 2.0 unveils some new things like, for instance, network management now is observability. Configuration management is now automation (chuckles). So you start to see things emerge differently in this Cloud 2.0 operating model. How do you see Cloud 2.0? Do you believe that, one, there's a Cloud 2.0 the way I said it, and if so, what is your version of what Cloud 2.0 would look like? >> Yeah, I think, yes, definitely think things are changing and the way that I think about it is that we're continuing to unbundle, and what I mean by unbundle is we're continuing to proliferate... Buyers are willing to buy and, therefore, we're continuing to proliferate relatively narrower and narrower and deeper and deeper capabilities and functionalities. And one big driver of that is AI, specifically, machine learning, and not the hypey stuff, but the real stuff. It's funny, man, when you compare, right now, AI, and what I was just talking about, it's the same thing all over again. It's Hype Cycle crawling up the thing, okay. But now, I think the recipe for good AI products that really do solve problems is that they're very intentionally narrow and they're very deep because they're gathering good training data and they're built to solve a very specific problem. So I think-- >> Like domain expertise, domain-specific-- >> Exactly, industry expertise, domain expertise, use case. If you're gathering training data about a knowledge worker, the data you'll gather is very different if you're a salesperson or an HR professional or an engineer. And I think the AI companies that are getting it right, are really dialed in and focused on that, so as a result, you see this proliferation of things that might be layered on top of big platforms like CRM's and technologies like Slack, which is creating a place for all this to come together, but you're seeing this unbundling where you're getting more and more kind of almost microservices, not quite, but very fine-tuned, specific things coming together. >> So machine learning, I totally agree with you, it's definitely hype, but the hardcore machine learning has a math side to it and a cognition side, cognitive learning thing. But, also, data is a common thread here. I mentioned domain-specific. >> Rick: All about the data. >> So, if data's super important, you want domain expertise which I agree with, but also there's now a horizontal scalability with observation data. The more data you have, the better at machine learning. It may or may not, depending on what the context is, so you have contextual data, this is a (chuckles) hard thing. What's your view on this because this is where people maybe get caught around the axis of machine learning hype and not nearly narrowing on what their data thinking is. >> Rick: 100%. >> What's your--? >> 100%, I think people will tend to fall in the trap of focusing on the algorithms that they're building and not recognizing that, without the data, the algorithms are useless. Right? >> Lisa: Right. >> And that it's really about how, as a ML problem that you're trying to tackle. Are you gathering data that's good, high-quality, scalable, accurate, protected, and safe? Because now, for different reasons, but again, just like when we were moving to cloud, security and privacy are utmost important because, for any AI to do its job well, it has to gather a lot of data out of the enterprise and store it and train off of that. >> It's interesting a lot of the cloud play. I mean sales was just a unicorn right out of the gate and they were a pioneer, that's what it is. They were cloud before cloud was cloud as we know it today. But you see a lot of things like the marketing automation cloud platform. It's a marketing cloud, I got a sales cloud. Almost seem too monolithic and you see people trying to unbundle that. I think you're right. Or break it apart 'cause the data is stuck in this full-stack model because, if you agree with your sets, horizontal scalability and vertical integration is the architecture. Technically, that's half-stack. (chuckles) >> Yes, yes. >> John: So half-stack developers are evaluable now. >> Totally, and yes, I like that term. The other problem that I think you're getting at is tendency isolation of that data. A lot of things were built with that in mind, meaning that the best AI you're going to build is only going to be what you can derive from one customer's set of data. Whereas, now, people are designing things intentionally such that the more customers that are using the thing, the better and smarter it gets. And so, to your point about monolithic, I think the opportunity that the next wave of startups have is that they can design in that world and that just means that their technology will get better faster 'cause it'll be able to learn from more data and-- >> This hasn't been changing a lot in cloud. I want to get your thoughts because you guys at Boomi here are on a single-tenant instance model because the collective intelligence of the data benefits everybody as more people come in. That's a beautiful fly, we'll feel a lot like Amazon model to me. But the old days, multi-tenancy was the holy grail. Maybe that came from the telcos or whatever, hosting world. What's your view on single-tenant instance on a SaaS business versus, say, multiten... There's trade-offs and pros and cons. What's your opinion, where do you lean on this one? >> Yeah, I mean we, both Boomi and Guru, so two eras worth or whatever. You have to have some level of tenancy isolation for some level of what you do. And, at Boomi, what we did is we separated the sensitive, private data. Boomi has customers processing payroll through its product, so very, very sensitive stuff absolutely has to be protected and isolated per tenant, and Boomi and Guru is signing up for that, and the clauses that we sign to are security agreements. But what you can decouple from that is more of the metadata or the attributes about that data and that customer, so Boomi, you're referring to, launched way back when Boomi Suggest which basically learned. As all the people were building data maps, connecting different things together, Boomi could learn from all that and go, oh, you're trying to do this. Well, these however many other customers, let me suggest how these maps are drawn, and Guru, we're following a very similar pattern, so Guru, we store knowledge which also tends to be IP for a company and so, yes, we absolutely adhere to the fact that only a handful of our employees can ever see that stuff, and that's 'cause they're in devops, and they needed to keep things running, but all the tenants are protected from one another. No one could ever leak to another one. But there are things about organization and structure and tagging and learnings you can get that are not that sensitive stuff that does make the product better from an AI perspective the more people that use it. And so, I don't know that I'm giving you one or another, but I think it does come down to how you intentionally design your data to it. >> John: Decoupling is the critical piece. >> Absolutely. >> This is the cloud architecture. Decouple, use API's to connect highly cohesive elements, and the platform can be cohesive if shared. >> Absolutely, and you can still get all the benefits of scalability and elastic growth and, yeah, 100%. >> Along that uncoupling line, tell us a little bit briefly about what Guru is and then I want to talk about some of the use cases. I know I'm a big Slack user; you probably are too, John. Talk to us about what you're doing there, but just give our folks a sense of what Guru is and all that good stuff. >> Sure, I mean Guru's, in some ways, like Boomi, rethinking a very old problem, in this case, it's knowledge management. That's a concept we've talked about for a long time and I think, these days, it has really become something that does impact a company's ability to scale and grow reliably, so very specifically, what we do is we bring the knowledge that employees need to do their job to them when they need it. So imagine if you're a customer support agent and you're supporting Spotify, you're an employee of Spotify. And I write in and I want to know about the new Hulu partnership. As an agent, you use Guru to look up and give me that answer and you don't have to go to a portal, you don't have to go to some other place to do that. Guru's sitting there right next to your ticket or your chat as you're having it in real time, saying, hey, there's asking about Hulu. This is the important things you want to know and talk about. And then the other half of that is, we make sure that that doesn't go still. The classic problem with knowledge products is the information, when you're talking about something like product knowledge, changes all the time. And the world we live in is moving faster and faster and faster, so we used to ship product once a year, once every two years. Now we ship product every month, sometimes couple times a month. >> Can you get a Guru bot for our journalism and our Cube hosts? We can be real time. >> Hey! >> I would be happy to do that. >> That'd be great! >> (laughs) Guru journalist. >> Actually, you're able to set it right in there where your ears are-- >> Lisa: I'll take it. >> Just prompting you, exactly. So, and then you asked about Slack, that's a really great partner for us. They were an early investor in the company. They're a customer, but together, if you think about where a lot of knowledge exchange happens in Slack, it's, hey, I need to know something. I think I can go slack John 'cause I think he'll know the answer. He knows about this. And you're like the 87th person who's asked me that same thing over again. Well, with Guru being integrated into Slack, you can just say, "Guru, give them the answer." And you don't have to repeat yourself. And that expert fatigue problem is a real thing. >> John: That's a huge issue. >> Absolutely. >> And, as your company grows and more and more people are, oh, poor John's getting buried for being the expert, one of the reasons he got you there. Now he's getting burned out and buried from it. And so we seek to solve that problem and then, post-Guru, a company will scale faster, they'll onboard their employees faster, they'll launch products better, 'cause everyone will know what to talk about-- >> It's like a frequently asked questions operating system. >> Rick: Exactly. >> At a moment's notice. >> Technology, right? And making it living 'cause all those FAQ's change all the time. >> And that's the important part too is keeping it relevant, 24 by 7. >> Rick: Absolutely. >> Which is difficult. >> Contextual data analysis is really hard. What's the secret sauce? >> The secret sauce is that we live where you work. The secret sauce is that we focus very specifically on specific workflows like that customer support agent and so, by knowing what you're doing and what ticket you're working on and what chat you're having with a customer, Guru can be anticipatory over time and start to say, "hey, you probably "want to talk to him about this," and bring that answer to you. It's because we live where you work. And that was frankly accidental in a lot of ways. We were trying to solve the problem of knowledge living where you work, and then what we realized is, wow, there's a lot of interesting stuff that we can learn and give back to the customer about what problems they're solving and when they're using Guru and why, and that only makes the product better. So that's really, I think, the thing that, if you ask our typical customers, really gets them excited. They'll say, hey, because of Guru, I feel more confident when I'm on the phone, that I'm always going to give the right answer. >> That's awesome. >> I love hearing customers talk about or even have business leaders talk about some of the accidental discoveries or capabilities, but just how, over time, more and more and more value gets unlocked if you can actually, really extract value from that data. Last question, Rick, I need to know what's in a name? The name Boomi, the name Guru? >> Yes, well, I'll start with the less exciting answer which I always get asked about, which is Boomi, which is a Hindi word that means "earth" or "from the earth". And, sometimes, if you're ordering at the Indian restaurant, you'll see B-H-O-M-I and that might be the vegetables on the menu. That name came from an early employee of the company. I wish I could say that it had a connection to business (laughs). It really doesn't, it just was like, it looks cool, and people tend to remember the name. And honestly, there have been so many moments in the early, early days where we were like, should we change the name, it doesn't really. And we're like you know what? People tend to, it sticks with them, it's kind of exciting, and we kept it. Guru, on the flip side, one of our early employees came up with that name too, and I think she was listening to me talk about what we were doing and she's like, oh, that thing is like a guru to you. And so the brand promise is that you feel like a guru in your area of expertise within a company and that our product plays a relatively small role in you having that, feeling confident about that expertise. >> I love that, awesome. Rick, thank you so much for joining John and me on theCUBE today, we appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> John: Thanks. >> For John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE from Boomi World 2019. Thanks for watching. (upbeat electronic music)