>>The cube presents, Dell technologies world brought to you by Dell. >>Welcome back to the cube. Lisa Martin and Dave Vale are live in Las Vegas. We are covering our third day of covering Dell technologies world 2022. The first live in-person event since 2019. It's been great to be here. We've had a lot of great conversations about all the announcements that Dell has made in the last couple of days. And we're gonna unpack a little bit more of that. Now. One of our alumni is back with us. Shannon champion joins us again, vice president product marketing at Dell technologies, and she's a company by Pete Robinson, the director of infrastructure engineering at Salesforce. Welcome. Thank >>You. >>So Shannon, you had a big announcement yesterday. I run a lot of new software innovations. Did >>You hear about that? I heard a little something >>About that. Unpack that for us. >>Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, it's so exciting to be here in person and have such a big moment across our storage portfolio, to see that on the big stage, the boom to announce major updates across power store, PowerMax and power flex all together, just a ton of innovation across the storage portfolio. And you probably also heard a ton of focus on our software driven innovation across those products, because our goal is really to deliver a continuously modern storage experience. That's what our customers are asking us for that cloud experience. Let's take the most Val get the most value from data no matter where it lives. That's on premises in the public clouds or at the edge. And that's what we, uh, unveil. That's what we're releasing. And that's what we're excited to talk about. >>Now, Pete, you, Salesforce is a long time Dell customer, but you're also its largest PowerMax customer. The biggest in the world. Tell us a little bit about what you guys are doing with PowerMax and your experience. >>Yeah, so, um, for Salesforce, trust is our number one value and that carries over into the infrastructure that we develop, we test and, and we roll out and Parex has been a key part of that. Um, we really like the, um, the technology in terms of availability, reliability, um, performance. And it, it has allowed us to, you know, continue to grow our customers, uh, continue needs for more and more data. >>So what was kind of eye popping to me was the emphasis on security. Not that you've not always emphasized security, but maybe Shannon, you could do a rundown of, yeah. Maybe not all the features, but give us the high level. And at Pete, I, I wonder how I, if you could comment on how, how you think about that as a practitioner, but please give us that. >>Sure. Yeah. So, you know, PowerMax has been leading for, uh, a long time in its space and we're continuing to lean into that and continue to lead in that space. And we're proud to say PowerMax is the world's most secure mission, critical storage platform. And the reason we can say that is because it really is designed for comprehensive cyber resiliency. It's designed with a zero trust security architecture. And in this particular release, there's 19 different security features really embedded in there. So I'm not gonna unpack all 19, but a couple, um, examples, right? So multifactor authentication also continuous ransomware anomaly detection, a leveraging cloud IQ, which is, uh, huge. Um, and last but not least, um, we have the industry's most granular cyber recovery at scale PowerMax can do up to 65 million imutable snapshots per array. So just, uh, and that's 30 times more than our next nearest competitor. So, you know, really when you're talking about recovery point objectives, power max can't be beat. >>So what does that mean to you, Pete? >>Uh, well, it's it's same thing that I was mentioning earlier about that's a trust factor. Uh, security is a big, a big part of that. You know, Salesforce invests heavily into the securing our customer data because it really is the, the core foundation of our success and our customers trust us with their data. And if we, if we were to fail at that, you know, we would lose that trust. And that's simply not, it's not an option. >>Let's talk about that trust for a minute. We know we've heard a lot about trust this week from Michael Dell. Talk to us about trust, your trust, Salesforce's trust and Dell technologies. You've been using them a long time, but cultural alignment yeah. Seems to be pretty spot on. >>I, I would agree. Um, you know, both companies have a customer first mentality, uh, you know, we, we succeed if the customer succeeds and we see that going back and forth in that partnership. So Dell is successful when Salesforce is successful and vice versa. So, um, when we've it's and it goes beyond just the initial, you know, the initial purchase of, of hardware or software, you know, how you operate it, how you manage it, um, how you continue to develop together. You know, our, you know, we work closely with the Dell engineering teams and we've, we've worked closely in development of the new, new PowerMax lines to where it's actually able to help us build our, our business. And, and again, you know, continue to help Dell in the process. So you've >>Got visibility on the new, a lot of these new features you're playing around with them. What I, I, I obviously started with security cuz that's on top of everybody's mind, but what are the things are important to you as a customer? And how do these features the new features kind of map into that? Maybe you could talk about your experience with the, I think you're in beta, maybe with these features. Maybe you could talk about that. >>Yeah. Um, probably the, the biggest thing that we're seeing right now, other than OB the obvious enhancements in hardware, which, which we love, uh, you know, better performance, better scalability, better, and a better density. Um, but also the, some of the software functionality that Dells starting to roll out, you know, we've, we've, we've uh, implemented cloud IQ for all of our PowerMax systems and it's the same thing. We continue to, um, find features that we would like. And we've actually, you know, worked closely with the cloud IQ team. And within a matter of weeks or months, those features are popping up in cloud IQ that we can then continue to, to develop and, and use. >>Yeah. I think trust goes both ways in our partnership, right? So, you know, Salesforce can trust Dell to deliver the, you know, the products they need to deliver their business outcomes, but we also have a relationship to where we can trust that Salesforce is gonna really help us develop the next generation product that's gonna, you know, really deliver the most value. Yeah. >>Can you share some business outcomes that you've achieved so far leveraging power max and how it's really enabled, maybe it's your organization's productivity perspective, but what are some of those outcomes that you've achieved so far? >>Um, there there's so many to, to, to choose from, but I would say the, probably the biggest thing that we've seen is a as we roll out new infrastructure, we have various generations that we deploy. Um, when we went to the new PowerMax, um, initially we were concerned about whether our storage infrastructure could keep up with the new compute, uh, systems that we were rolling out. And when we went through and began testing it, we came to realize that the, the performance improvements alone, that we were seeing were able to keep up with the compute demand, making that transition from the older VMAX platforms to the PMAX practically seamless and able to just deploy the new SKUs as, as they came out. >>Talk about the portfolio that you apply to PowerMax. I mean, it's the highest of the highest end mission critical the toughest workloads in the planet. Salesforce has made a lot of acquisitions. Yeah. Um, do you throw everything at PowerMax? Are you, are you selective? What's your strategy there? So >>It's, it's selective. In other words that there's no square peg that meets every need, um, you know, acquisitions take some time to, to ingest, um, you know, some run into cloud, some run in first, in, in first party. Um, but so we, we try to take a very, very intentional approach to where we deploy that technology. >>So 10 years ago, someone in your position, or maybe someone who works for you was probably do spent a lot of time managing lawns and tuning performance. And how has that changed? >>We don't do that. <laugh> we? >>We can, right. So what do you do with right. Talk, talk more double click on that. So how talk about how that transition occurred from really non-productive activities, managing storage boxes. Yeah. And, and where you are today, what are you doing with those resources? >>It, it, it all comes outta automation. Like, you know, the, you know, hardware is hardware to a point, um, but you reach a point where the, the manageability scale just goes exponential and, and we're way, well past that. And the only way we've been able to meet that, meet that need is to, to automate and really develop our operations, to be able to not just manage at a lung level or even at the system level, but manage at the data center level at the geographical, you know, location level and then being able to, to manage from there. >>Okay. Really stupid question. But I'm gonna ask it cause I wanna hear your answer. True. Why can't you just take a software defined storage platform and just run everything on that? Why do you need all these different platforms and why do you gotta spend all this money on PowerMax? Why, why can't you just do >>That? That's the million dollar question. Uh, I, I ask that all the time. <laugh>, um, I think software defined is it's on its way. Um, it's come a long way just in the last decade. Yeah. Um, but in terms of supporting what I consider mission critical, large scale, uh, applications, it's, it's not, it's just simply not on par just yet with what we do with PowerMax, for example. >>And that's exactly how we position it in our portfolio. Right? So PowerMax runs on 95% of the fortune 100 companies, top 20 healthcare companies, top 10 financial services companies in the world. So it's really mission critical high end has all of the enterprise level features and capabilities to really have that availability. That's so important to a lot of companies like Salesforce and, and Pete's right, you know, software define is on its way and it provides a lot of agility there. But at the end of the day for mission critical storage, it's all about PowerMax. >>I wonder if we're ever gonna get to, I mean, you, you, you, it was interesting answer cuz you kind of, I inferred from your that you're hopeful and even optimistic that someday will get to parody. But I wonder because you can't be just close enough. It's almost, you have to be. >>I think, I think the key answer to that is it's it's the software flying gets you halfway there. The other side of the coin is the application ecosystem has to change to be able to solve that other, other side of it. Cuz if you simply simply take an application that runs on a PowerMax and try to run it, just forklift it over to a software defined. You're not gonna have very much luck. >>Recovery has to be moved up to stack >>Operations recovery, the whole, whole whole works. >>Jenny, can you comment on how customers like Salesforce? Like what's your process for involving them in testing in roadmap and in that direction, strategic direction that you guys are going? Great >>Question. Sure. Yeah. So, you know, customer feedback is huge. You've heard it. I'm sure this is not new right product development and engineering. We love to hear from our customers. And there's multiple ways you heard about beta testing, which we're really fortunate that Salesforce can help us provide that feedback for our new releases. But we have user groups, we have forums. We, we hear directly from our sales teams, our, you know, our customers, aren't shy, they're willing to give us their feedback. And at the end of the day, we take that feedback and make sure that we're prioritizing the right things in our product management and engineering teams so that we're delivering the things that matter. Most first, >>We've heard a lot of that this week. So I would agree guys, thank you so much for joining Dave and me talking about Salesforce. What you doing with PowerMax? All the stuff that you announced yesterday, alone. Hopefully you get to go home and get a little bit of rest. >>Yes. >>I'm sure that there's, there's never a dull moment. Never. Can't wait guys. Great to have you. >>Thank you. You guys, >>For our guests on Dave Volante, I'm Lisa Martin and you're watching the queue. We are live day three of our coverage of Dell technologies world 2022, Dave and I will be right back with our final guest of the show.

>>And welcome back to the cubes coverage of alias reinvent 2021. I'm Jon furrier, your host of the cube we're onsite we're hybrid. It's a hybrid event. We've got Odile, Shara Dean vice president of north America solution engineering at Salesforce. We deal SIM thank you for coming on the cube >>You John, excited to be >>Here. So w you know, Salesforce obviously, um, being in Palo Alto in the bay area, they've got the Salesforce tower, great business cloud before cloud great innovation. A lot of growth has been very successful at SAS and platform. So you take that to the government, uh, an area public sector where public sector and other areas around this have been exploding with the pandemic with new use cases and just kind of a refactoring and replatforming of L all aspects of digital. It's been a big digital transformation surge, and rightfully so you guys are in the mix here. Um, talk about the Salesforce is positioned as you guys innovate and scale your platform and rethink this architecture with AWS in the public sector. >>Yeah. Thank you, John. So you're spot on Salesforce defines SAS as a delivery of services to customers, and that's really the precursor to where we are with cloud here. So let's talk about public sector and what that means. I'm very proud to work in and around public sector for many years. And I'll Salesforce, public sector group supports any number of use cases, different missions, anywhere from state and local, all the way through to federal use cases on, on a global scale. But what that means, and I mean, right back to your question is how do we deliver those in the cloud in a scalable, responsive way? You mentioned the pandemic and throughout the pandemic, we were instrumental in trying to deliver these services and getting states and localities towns, countries up and running to deliver the critical things that we all learned about in a hurry contact pricing. >>COVID testing all these ideas around vaccine management, what it takes to get vaccines to populations, but many of our customers, many of our governments just weren't well positioned to do that. So what they were relying on was a secure, scalable, flexible environment that allowed them to define their workflows or their business models in a very, very rapid pace as we were dealing with the surge and the constantly changing landscape of the pandemic. So from our perspective, we've spent years investing in public sector to make sure that we need the compliance requirements, whether that's FedRAMP or, or CMMC, or protected being Canada, how do we do that reliably quickly so that our government customers can rely on us for situations like the pandemic to be able to respond? >>Yeah, one of the things we've been doing a lot of reporting around is the idea that the pandemic has kind of forced, and it was a forcing function around digital transformation. Uh, so I have to ask you knowing the history of Salesforce and the greatness of the company that you guys have had over the years, uh, when you get into the public sector, I'm sure you get all kinds of questions. We don't have sales forces, and we don't have sales managers. Um, we don't need a CRM. Um, and we have industry regulations. We're not a commercial thing. How do you answer those? Because you guys have infrastructure, you are a hyperscale, uh, what's your take on that and how do you answer those direct questions when they come up? >>All great questions and yes, we get them all the time. Uh, so how do we answer them? Well, first and foremost, the idea of a CRM is around putting your customer at the center of your view of them. So that customer relationship management means you, you have a view into the services your customer needs and how they're engaging with you, digitally engagement, in-person engagement, et cetera. I would intend that that's no different for a government entity than it is for a consumer. Very sensitive government entity wants to treat their constituents around the services they need and getting that full 360 view of what, what are the services available to them? How do they access them, et cetera, actually fits really well into that CRM model, but it does take some explaining and reinvisioning it, but it plays really well into the digital transformation imperatives that these agencies have, because what you want to do in a digital transformation is also re-imagined all these old systems and legacy systems, how you're going to make them more accessible. >>But also to your point, how do you bring them to this level of expectation that our consumers have? I'm now accustomed to having mobile apps and on-demand, uh, applications and websites for ordering products for ordering needs, et cetera, for booking a restaurant reservation, I've developed the exact same requirements and expectations of my government services and our government customers are clearly aware of this. So they want to bring this capability to the fore and offer their constituents a better experience as well. When you asked about government regulations, this is absolutely critical to how we think about delivering that service, the value of the cloud. Isn't just, you can go get access to a service and not have to worry about that service. It's also, how do we unencumber agencies from these compliance requirements from audits, from privacy checks and needs in a constantly evolving landscape. There's always a legislative imperative to change something, add more constraints, more privacy requirements, compliance requirements, et cetera. So what we want to do is free our customers up from having to worry about that. That's what we undertake. We provide them that level of assurance, and they focus once again, on that higher value of the business flows, the mission, the constituency context, and how to make that constituent experience better. >>I have to ask you, I had a chance to sit down one-on-one with Adam. Slupski the new CEO of AWS recently prior to re-invent. And he said something to me. I want to get your reaction to, he said with scale, you can get visibility on some new use cases. So this applies to Salesforce. You guys are a hyperscaler, you have this new architecture named hyper force. What is this all about? And how does that tie into celebrities comment? Okay. >>Yeah. Uh, excellent question. And we'll talk a little about that history that brings us to two hype before. So just like many of our customers, we realize that having the ability to scale across the globe and be able to offer our services in different regions, different compliance requirements meant that our investments in first party data centers needed to be reconstructed a little bit. And that posed a bit of a rearchitecture for us as well. But that's what gave us the flexibility then to essentially decouple our architecture from the physical infrastructure layer, but it afforded us then the ability to deploy very quickly and very scaleably on AWS in regions that we previously weren't operating in. So it allows us to move along quicker, allows us to bring that flexibility and that scale to the customer where they are. And then we can meet once again, coming back to compliance and regulations. >>We can meet requirements around data residency and data privacy requirements in different regions that we were somewhat constrained in doing earlier. And that also then gives us the ability, I think, to what Adam might've been alluding to now that we're able to bring that service to the customer, they can say, well, actually here's another use case that I would like Salesforce to deliver on. And it gives us that flexibility. We do a lot in terms of expanding across use cases. And if I can point to the pandemic again, just as a great frame of reference that we're all thrust into. Initially, if you cast your mind back to may of last year, we were all worried about contact tracing, right? No side effects scenes, yet we didn't even have pelvic testing. Well, shortly thereafter, COVID testing became available and states were offering those well that from contact tracing to COVID testing is a massive shift. If you think about the use case for technology. So we enable our customers to move very quickly from contact tracing, to COVID, testing them to vaccine management. They're actually entirely different use cases, even though they all apply to solving for the pandemic where we had so many others, digital outreach, helping with loans and grants and management through the PPP programs, through unemployment programs, all different use cases that we helped our customers extend to, which you can't do that if you're not flexible enough to move quickly and scale effectively to support those. >>I think that value proposition and that notion of having that regional global support is going to really come into the whole data programmability trend. I call data as dev ops kind of vibe where data as code becomes more, more agile, right? You're going to see that. I think that's going to be, that's a big theme at a reinvent this year. So, so I have to ask you now, now we're sitting in this global scale, you've got geopolitics, you got public sector. How does Salesforce government cloud plus, and hyper force help your help governments and their partners because their ecosystems too, right? So it's not a commercial. Now it's looking a lot like a commercial lines between commercial and government looking the same. How do you guys help governments and their partners? >>So having been in this, this, uh, area for so long, I, I like to position this tonight. I use this actually as a good selling point, even in selling the value propositions for investment internally, I think of the government regulations and requirements around privacy compliance as a minimum barrier of entry. So I'll, uh, you mentioned our government cloud, plus that's really more in the U S and it's a FedRAMP, uh, tested at a federal and PI level. We've got privacy of lays. We've got our DOD out for, uh, PA in there we've got HIPAA and PCI compliance bank 10. Those are efforts that if a company or a government customer were to go run through individually, it's going to take them a lot of time, effort, and investment to support those. And you end up creating an operations business that just does that for 24 7. >>That's the only reason for them to exist is to manage those. But then we have the government adjacent industries that you're referring to. What about the parkers that service government, they have their own set of regulations. more recently CMMC coming out, et cetera. We provide all of those as a baseline for our government cloud plus. So that level of assurance is assumed by customers and consumers of the service. And again, they're worried about what type of beta and what type of business workflows they're gonna enable and not, can they meet the basic regulations to stand up the service? >>Yeah, I think that highly of the workflows piece is critical because workflows is the new integration layer, right? So these seeing a lot of that, and again, that's a big theme at a re-invent this year. I'll see the performance is key graviton to all the processor stuff and, and, you know, it's lambed and old serverless, but as you move up to the stack where there's actual agility and modern applications that need to be built, whatever they are, you need to have this programmable cloud scale, but the customization on workflows and machine learning and AI. So this is all beautiful for everyone to think about, but now they have to implement it. So how might your customers and prospects consider expanding their offerings with Salesforce in the cloud? Is there, is there a certain playbook that you see, is there a situational awareness that's needed? How would you advise your customers will want to consider expanding, uh, their portfolio in their, their apps and workflows with Salesforce? >>Yeah, that's a fantastic question. So, John, and I'm going to start with, again, going back a little bit to what is Salesforce and who are we as a company? So in as much as we started talking about Salesforce as the number one CRM platform was SAS, we've also acquired some companies and invested in a lot of different, uh, elements of businesses, uh, Tableau NeoSoft and velocity more recently, the slack acquisition, and they're all slightly outside of our platform in terms of capabilities and what we intend for those to deliver. So our customers have a lot more options in terms of what it means to partner with and invest with Salesforce. Uh, slack is a great example of where that becomes a communications mesh and infrastructure that allows them to integrate, uh, technologies, applications, workflows, et cetera. So you want to rethink almost what is Salesforce and what does it mean in your enterprise? >>And then coming back to, to the core of what we do, a lot of how we enable our customers is here's an environment. We enable these very quickly a customer's access to the environment right away. They can set up testing environments, sandboxes, start playing with workflows and really reimagine what that environment is going to look like for their internal users and their engagement with these applications. So yes, we have runbooks we have playbooks, but we've also got enablers in the form of applications. We have a huge application market, if you will, where customers can download different accelerators and try those. We've got a huge network of partners that have delivered rich value added applications. So in most cases, our customers are going to find someone's already created the use case or the application or the workflow they needed. And maybe it's a case of just announcing that a little bit or updating it a little bit, or creating the integration to an in-house system already. So it makes it very exciting, but also makes it a very quick start to solve a problem. >>Oh, Nielsen, you guys have a great opportunity with the cloud and cloud scale. Obviously, companies successful Salesforce is well-known, but as data and governance has to be more agile, more secure often, that sounds counter-intuitive, but this is the big deal that's happening right now, where you need the leverage, the scale you need to have it secure, which you'd think needs to be protective, but making it more permissive is agility. This is the core theme, your, your reaction to wrap up, >>Uh, all great points and yes, to be the data isn't useful if it's entirely locked up. So at Todd, you bring the user to the data they have access to, and that data to provide them value. But especially in a, we'll put a government lens on this. On the government side, the data is ultimately what our government entities are stewarding. So yes services, but that data is imperative. So our customers understand the value of that data and then also how to not just extract value from it, but how to shepherd and steward the security of that data very well. So for us, it's the ability to get that data to the right users, allow them to construct their business omission flow on that data. But the data has to persist has to add value, has to be available for analytics and so on >>Nielsen. Jardeen vice president of north America solutions engineering at Salesforce. Thanks for coming on the cube and, and sharing your story and congratulate a big opportunity ahead for you guys. Congratulations. >>Absolutely. John, thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of the week. Okay. >>It was coverage of eight of us reinvent 2021. Um, John for a, your host. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: From around the globe it's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021. Brought to you by IBM. >> And welcome back here on theCUBE. John Walls, your host with you as we continue our IBM Think 2021 initiative. Been talking a lot about IBM's assistance in terms of what it's doing for its client-base. We're going to talk about partnerships today, a little bit with Bill Patterson who is the EVP and General Manager of CRM Applications at Salesforce who has a really good partnership in great practice right now, with IBM. And Bill, thanks for the time today. Lookin' forward to spending some time with you, here. >> Yeah, thank you John, thanks for having me today. >> You bet. Well, let's just jump right in. First off, let's share with the viewers about your core responsibilities at Salesforce. We talked about CRM, what your engagement is there, but if you would just kind of of give us an idea of the kind of things that you're handling on a day-to-day basis. >> Well, I am responsible for our CRM applications here, at Salesforce, which are our sales cloud technologies to help organizations get back to growth, our service cloud technologies which are really helping organizations to take care of their customers, you know, through all moments of the digital lifecycle, our small business solutions, so to help growing organizations thrive, and our Work.com and vaccine management solutions which are helping the economy safely reopen through the crisis modes that we've all been living in. So broad range responsibilities and my day-to-day is nothing like it was a year ago. >> Yeah and I could only imagine, especially when you throw that last component in, COVID, which hopefully, we'll have time to talk about just because, I think, people are so are taken to the subject now and obviously it's impacting business on so many different levels. But let's talk, first off, about IBM and your partnership with them, kind of the genesis of that, how that came about, and maybe how you're working together. How are you integrated these days with IBM? >> Well, you know, one of the things at Salesforce that are key value as an organization is is to establish trust around the transformation of organizations across the world. And when you think about brands that you can trust to drive transformations with, IBM and Salesforce really stand apart. So IBM is an incredible partner for us on the technology side, on a service delivery side, and in an innovation side for us to create new solutions to help our clients really go in this from-to state of how their businesses used to operate to how they need to operate in the future. I loved working with the IBM team. We have a lot of great values that are shared across our two organizations. But most fundamentally, those values are deeply rooted in customer success. And I think that that is one of the things that really draws me too, working with such a great partner here. >> Go into the process a little bit, if you will. So if I'm a prospective client of yours and I come to you with some cloud needs, you know, again, whether it's storage or whether it's applications or whether it's Edge, whatever it is I'm coming to you for, how do you then translate that to IBM and how does IBM come into play, where do the boundaries kind of start and stop or do they? Or is it a complete mesh? >> Yeah, well I think one of the things that's sort of unique about today's climate is people aren't just looking to solve technology problems, they're looking to solve business problems. And what we really do at Salesforce is lead with the business transformation opportunity and deeply partner with IBM on a number of fronts to really go help those opportunities become realized. The first is in the services line. IBM has great partnerships with Salesforce around the transformation about core business processes, configuration, integration services. That's one of the dimensions that we work together on. We also work together on areas of artificial intelligence and how we help businesses become smart in their operations every day to empower their workforce to really achieve more. And finally, you know that you mentioned about core technology, you know, oftentimes, the business requirements translate into great technology transformation. And that's what we do deeply with the IBM team is really outlining a blueprint and a roadmap for modernizing the technical infrastructure to help organizations move fast, increase their operational agility, and run at such scale and safely in today in the modern world that we all operate in on. So through all those facets of the lifecycle, IBM continues to be one of our leading partners, globally, to help clients, you know, not just here, in the United States, but around the world to think about how they need to maximize their transformational abilities. >> Yeah, and you touched on this at the outset of the interview. We were talking about IBM and the impact and obviously, the great association relationship that you have with them and the value in that. I'd like you to amplify on that a little bit more in terms of, specifically, what are you getting out of it you think, from a Salesforce perspective to have kind of the power and the weight and the bench, basically, that IBM provides. >> Well you think about transformation and you know, you read a lot about digital transformation online, that means so many different things to so many different businesses. Businesses, not just, like I said, here in one country, but globally, the transformational needs really need to come with incredible bench and domain expertise by industry, by geography, even by some micro-regions in those geographies given what we've been experiencing here, in the public sector in the United States with this COVID response activity we've been doing with the IBM team. And so when you talk about the deep bench, what I love about working with IBM on is, again, commanding just great industry insights and knowledge of where industries are heading and also cross-industry insights so that you can really bring great best practices from say, one industry to another. Second is that real understanding of the global nature of business today. And I don't think the one thing that's fascinating about digital, it is not a sovereign identity, today. Digital really means that you need to understand how to operate in every country, every region, every location, you know, safely. And so IBM has incredible depth in bench of experiences to help our clients truly transform those areas. Maybe another area that I really have appreciated working with IBM on is that deep technical understanding and deep technical domain of excellence maybe in the area of artificial intelligence. And our partnership is quite unique between Salesforce and IBM. Not only do we work together for external clients but inside of IBM, IBM is using Salesforce today to run a lot of your core operations. And so the partnership we work with, not only IBM as a kind of delivery excellence, but internally as a customer, is really helping IBM transform its operations from service to sales to marketing all around the world. So I think this partnership is one that is deeply rooted in working together and really, like I mentioned before, finding the right path to drive the outcomes of tomorrow. >> You know, you mentioned COVID and so we'd like to touch on that. But I assume that's a big part of your current relationship, if you will, in terms of the partnership goes. What, specifically, are you doing with IBM in that space and what have you done, and then what are you continuing to do as we go through now, the vaccination process and the variant identification processes and all these things? So maybe you can share with our viewers a little bit about the kinds of things that you have been working on together and the kind of progress that you've been making. >> Well, back a year ago, you know, when the world was really at a standstill, Salesforce created a solution called Work.com which was to engineer new technologies to help businesses kind of deal with the reality of a hard shutdown to business in the, say, private sector and then in the public sector, to really create new innovation around key solutions like contact tracing that you might have needed to track, you know, kind of outbreak and the rate of progression of the virus. And what we did with the IBM team, working with clients around the world first was work together to deploy those technologies rapidly into the hands of our customers. Through those moments of opportunity and realization, you know, working with our clients, we also started to hear of, you know, kind of about where we find ourselves today, this mass vaccination wave of where our citizens and societies are kind of on the recovery journey. And the work that we did with IBM was to start to plan out the next wave of recovery options around vaccine managements, Salesforce creating a core vaccine scheduling, distribution, and administration management services and IBM focusing on more of that credentialing and vaccination state of how someone has gone from receiving a shot in arm to now having a trusted profile of which vaccines, when did you receive them, are they still accurate and valid around those solutions. So where we're working with the IBM team most acutely on COVID now is in the vaccine credential management side through Watson Health. >> Well, can you give us an idea now, let's see if we can dig in a little deeper on some of those other things you talked about to about core technologies, you talked about, I mentioned Edge, you know, and that's people tryin' to figure out how they integrate these Edge technologies into their primary systems, now. So can you give us some examples, some specific examples of some things that you're actually collaborating on today in those areas or maybe another that comes to mind? >> Yeah, Edge computing is probably one of the other more exciting things that we're doing with the IBM team and I think you find that really working with our field service business and IBM cloud services, you know, globally speaking. On the Edge, as devices become smarter and more digital, they have a lot of signals that organizations can now tap into, not only for real-time intelligence but also fault intelligence when a device is starting to need repair or preventative maintenance around the solutions that kind of need to be administered. And the work that we're doing to really broker this connected, not just enterprise, but connected sort of experiences with IBM, super powerful here, because the IBM Edge services are now helping us get into anomaly detection. Those anomaly detections are automatically routing to workers who use the Salesforce field service capabilities, and now we can help organizations stay running safely and with continuity which is really all our customers are asking us for. So the ability for us to be creative and understand, you know, our parts of the picture together are really the things that I think are most exciting for what we're doing for clients around the world. >> Yeah, you mentioned continuity, kind of a cousin to that, I think, is security in a way because you're-- >> Absolutely. >> So what are you hearing from your customer-base these days with regard to security? You know, a lot of high profile instances certainly from bad state actors, as we well know. But what are you hearing in terms of security that you're looking at and maybe cooperating or collaborating with IBM on to make sure that those concerns are being addressed? >> Yeah, you know, I think, well, first off, security is on the top of minds for all decision-makers, executives, today. It's the number one threat that a lot of companies are really needed to respond to given what we've seen in the geo-political world that we're in. And security isn't just about securing your servers, it's also about securing every operational touchpoint that you might have with, you know, your every end-user or even every customer that's inter-operating with your services that you project as an organization. And what I love about working with the IBM team is, as we mentioned, you know, such great insights across all parts of technology infrastructure to really help understand both the threat level, how to contain that threat level, and more importantly, how to engineer with, you know, great solutions all the way into the hands of customers so they become safe and easy for all actors in your environment to really operate with. And that's where, again, you know, you think about a solution like mobile sales professionals, they're out traveling around the world on mobile devices, sometimes, their AG even brought their own personal devices into the enterprise. And so IBM is a great partner for ours just to help us understand the overall threat level of every device every moment that an employee might have within their organizational data, and really help create great solutions to help keep organizations running safely. >> Yeah, I think it's interesting you tell about people bringing their own devices on, back when, I remember that acronym, BYOB was like a huge thing, right? (chuckling) And this major problem or conundrum and now it's almost like an afterthought, you've got it solved, you've got it well taken care of. >> Well you think about, again, devices in the enterprise and how much we've been able to achieve with the BYOB becoming commonplace and norm, even today, the workman place from home kind of environment that we're in. I mean, who would have thought a year ago that most of our operations can be conducted safely from our home offices, not just our regional or corporate offices? And again, that's the kind of thing that working with IBM has been such a great value for our clients because no one could have forecasted that the contact center would've had to moved to your kitchen last year. And yet, we had to really go achieve that in this time and working with great partners like IBM, it became not just a conversation but real practice. >> By the way, I think I said BYOB. I meant BYOD, so you know where my mind's at, right? (chuckling) >> I wasn't going to correct you. >> Hey thanks, Bill, I appreciate that. It just kind of hit me. I think that that just, that was a Freudian slip, certainly. Hey Bill, thanks for the time. I certainly do appreciate and thanks for shining a light on this really good partnership between Salesforce and IBM. And we wish you continued success down the road with that, as well. >> Yeah, thanks again. And again, love being your partner and love the impact we're having together. >> Great, thank you very much. Bill Patterson joining us, the EVP work in CRM at Salesforce talking about IBM and that relationship that they're putting into practice for their client-base. John Walls reporting here, on theCUBE. Thanks for joining us with more on IBM Think. (soft music) ♪ Dah de dah ♪ ♪ Dah ♪

>>from around the >>globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. Welcome back to the Cubes Coverage Cube Virtual coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 which is also virtual. We're not in person this year. We're doing the remote interviews. But of course, getting all the stories, of course, reinvented, full of partnerships full of news. And we've got a great segment here with Salesforce and AWS. Eileen Schneider Win, who is the senior vice president of strategic partnerships, and Maureen Lundergan, director of worldwide training and certification address. Maureen Eileen. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. And nice keynote. What's up with the partnership? Give us a quick over your lien. What's what's the Salesforce? A day was partnership. Take a minute to explain it. >>Sure, thank you. I think I'll start out by talking about how sales were thinks about strategic partnerships. So for us, it's really it starts with the customer and being where they want us to be. And we've been so fortunate to be in this relationship with AWS for over five years now. It really started out as an infrastructure based partnership as we were seeing customers start their digital transformation journeys and moved to the cloud. But what has been really exciting as we've spent more time working together and working with our customers, we have now started to move into emotion of really bringing some differentiated solutions between the number one CRM and the most broadly adopted cloud platform to market for customers, uh, in areas like productivity, security and training and certification which will talk more about in a bit Onda. Specifically, some of those solutions are service Cloud Voice Product, which we launched this summer, announced last fall, a dream force as well as our private connect product which creates great security between the AWS platform and Salesforce. >>What? Some of the impact area is actually the two clouds you mentioned CRM and Amazon. We're seeing data obviously being a part of the equation ai machine learning. Um, what's been the impact I lean to your customer specifically >>Yeah, so specifically I'd call out to areas what one is really that foundation of security. Specifically, as government regulations and data security has become more critical, we've really been able to partner together there and and that's been crucial for certain customers in certain regions as well a certain industries like government. Uh, in addition, I would call out again that service cloud voice partnership, a zoo. We see the world moving more digital. This really allows customers to go quickly and, uh, turn on. There are solutions from anywhere at any time. >>You know, I love that any time, anywhere kind of philosophy. Now more than ever. With the pandemic collaborations required more than ever, and some people are used to it. You know, I've seen more technical developers have used to working at home, but not everyone else. The workforce still needs to get the job done. So this idea of collaboration, what is the impact in for your customers and how are you guys helping them? Because I think this is a big theme of this year That's gonna not only carry over, even when the pandemics over this idea of anywhere is all about collaboration. >>Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, the exciting thing about the partnership is we've been talking digital transformation with customers for years, but I think what we saw at the beginning of this year, as we were all thrown home and forced Thio, you know, fire up our jobs from our bedrooms or our garages. It really came down to our ability to work quickly and turn on our solutions. It's and these unprecedented times, while we're going through this now, everything we're building really is the future. So it's not just the tools and technology, it's also the processes and how work is getting done that's really come into play. But again, I'll anchor back to that service blood voice solution. So for us, call centers were completely disrupted. You think of call centers and you know, pre 2020 everyone sitting in a room together, agent side by side managers, having the ability to pop over and assist with a call or managing escalation. Now that's been completely disrupted. And it's been very exciting for us to work with our customers, to reimagine what that looks like again both from a technology perspective but also from a process perspective. And along with that, you had to reimagine how employees are learning these solutions and being trained. So we're very grateful for the partnership with AWS, and we're doing some really amazing things together. >>You know this is one of my favorite things about the enablement of Cloud. But in Salesforce has been a pioneer. As you pointed out, this connectedness feature has always been there. Now more than ever, it's highlighted with call centers, not the call center more. It's the connected center. People are connecting. And I think, Maureen, I think last time you're in the Cube. A few years ago, we were talking about virtual training online, and that was pre pet pandemic. Now you're seeing surge of online training not only because people's jobs are changing and being displaced or even shut down. New roles are emerging, right? So the virtual space Virtual world digital world, there's everyone's getting more digital faster now. How has the cove in 19 changed the landscape for training and skills demand? From your perspective, I >>mean at AWS, we've been working on our virtual capabilities for a while, so we had a digital platform out. We had a great partnership, have a great partnership with Salesforce and putting content on trailhead. We had to pivot very rapidly to virtual instructor led training and also our certifications right. We were lucky that our vendors partnered with us rapidly to pivot certification toe proctor environment. And this actually has helped to expand our ability to deliver the both training and certification in locations that we may not have been able to do before. And we have seen while it slowed. Initially, we have seen such an uptake and training over the last, um, 6 to 8 months. It's been incredible. We've been working with our customers. We've been working with our partnerships like Salesforce. We've been pushing more content out. I think customers and partners air really looking for how toe upscale their employees, uh, in a in a way, that is easy for them. And so it's actually been a great surprise to see the adoption of all of our curriculum over the last couple months. >>Well, congratulations knows a lot more work to do. It's gonna get more engaging, more virtual, more rich media. But this idea of connecting lean I wanna get back to the your your thoughts earlier, um, mentioned trailhead. Maury mentioned trailhead. You guys were doing some work with the virtual training there. What? Can you tell us more about that? And how that's going so far? >>Sounds great. So trailhead is our free online learning platform. And it really started because we have a commitment to democratizing anyone's ability to enter our industry s so you could go there and both online or with our trail head go app and experience what we call trails, which our paths for learning again on different areas of knowledge and skills and technology. And late last year, we announced an incredible partnership with AWS, where we're bringing the AWS learning content and certification to trailhead. And this is really again driven by our customers to are asking us to do our part in bringing mawr of these skilled resource is into the ecosystem. But something I also wanna highlight is I feel like this moment that we're in right now has also forced everyone to reimagine how they're doing learning even businesses, how they're training their employees and again having this free platform. And the partnership with AWS has really helped us go very quickly and create a lot of impact with customers. >>I just want to say I love the trailhead metaphor because, you know, learnings nonlinear. It's asynchronous. You've got digital. So you want to take a shortcut? You gotta know the maps And I think that's, you know, people wanna learn versus the linear, you know, tracks on. And I think that's how people have been learning online. And AWS has got a data driven strategy. Marine, I want to get your take on this because as you bring content on the trailhead, can you talk about how that works? And how you working with Railhead? >>Yeah. I mean, we started conversations a couple of years ago, and I think the interesting thing is that Salesforce and AWS have a very similar philosophy about bringing education to anybody who wants it. You'll hear me talk a lot about that in my leadership talk at reinvent, but, um, we really believe that we wanna provide content where learners learn and salesforce and trailhead have this amazing captured audience. And, um, you know, we're really looking at exploring. How do we bring education to people that might not otherwise have access to it? On DSO, we started with really foundational level content, a ws Cloud, Practitioner Essentials and AWS Cloud for technical professionals. And the interesting thing is, both of those courses have been consumed. ITT's not enough to just put it out there you want people to complete the trails and we've seen such an amazing uptake on the courses with, like 85% completion rate on one of the trails and 95% completion rate on the other one. And to keep customers engage is really a credit toe. How trailhead is designed. >>You know, it's interesting. The certification people don't lose sight of the fact that that's kind of the in the end state. Then you start a new trail. I mean, this >>is >>the this is really what it's all about. Can you just share some observations that you've seen for people that are coming into this now to say, Hey, okay, what do I expect? And what are some of the outcomes? >>Yeah, I mean, first, what we're seeing is our customers are being very clear that they need more of these skills. So we're also seeing the need for Salesforce administrators out in our ecosystem. And I think with everything going on this year, it's also an opportunity for people who are looking to pivot. Their careers were moving to tech and again, this free learning platform and the content that we're bringing has been really powerful and again for us. The need for salesforce administrators and cloud practitioners out in our ecosystem are in more demand than ever. >>Maureen. From your perspective on AWS, you see a lot of the new new jobs cybersecurity, Brazilian openings. Where do you see the most needs on for training and certification? Can you highlight some of the areas that are emerging and trending, if you will? >>I would say it's interesting because what we're seeing is is both ends of the spectrum. People that are really trying to just really understand who cloud is, whether it's, ah, business leader within an organization, a finance person, a marketing person. So cloud practitioner, you know, we're seeing huge adoption and consumption on both our platform in on Salesforce. But also some other areas are security and machine learning machine learning. We have five learning paths on our digital platform. We've also extended that content out to other platforms and the consumption rate is significant. And so, you know, I think we're seeing, uh, customers consume that. But the other thing that we're doing is we're really focused on looking at who doesn't have access to education and making sure that's available. So I think the large adoption of Cloud Practitioner in Practitioner is is largely due to the other things that we're doing with programs like Restart our academic programs >>to close it out, Alina want to get your thoughts and final thoughts on the relationship and how people can find more information about this partnership and what it means. Take, take it home. >>Thank you for asking. So just like everything else we've been talking about today, we've had to reimagine how we're showing up at this event together and very exciting thing that my team has created is the AWS Virtual Park. And anyone can access that at salesforce dot com slash aws. So please go check it out. You can experience our products here from our experts and experience its innovation on your own. >>Great insight. Thanks for coming on and participating. Really appreciate Salesforce and AWS two big winning leading clouds working together Trail had great great offering. Thanks for coming on sharing the news. Appreciate >>it. Thank you. >>It's the Cube virtual covering. It was reinvent virtual. Of course. Check out all the information here All three weeks. Walter Wall coverage. I'm John Fury with the Cube. Thanks for watching

>>from around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of AWS Public sector online brought to you by Amazon Web services. >>Hi, I'm stupid man. And this is the Cube's coverage of AWS Public Sectors Summit Online. We've done this show for many years. Of course, this this time it's online rather than in person in the District of Washington D. C Happy to welcome to the program First time guest. Very good partner of Aws is from Salesforce is Casey Coleman. She is the senior vice president of Global Government Solutions, together with sales work. Casey, thanks so much for joining us. >>Thank you. Glad to be here. >>All right. So first of all, maybe if you could give us a little bit of level set your role at Salesforce and obviously, you know, a long partnership with Amazon. Tell us a little bit about that. >>Yes. My role at Salesforce is to work with our customers in the public sector globally and really help them map out their digital transformation. You know, it's an ongoing journey and we help them understand how to how to break that down into actionable steps and really transformed what they're doing to serve their constituents and citizens better. >>Excellent. So it of course said that the public sector show a lot about the leverage of govcloud and the other services. All the compliance that goes into that ahead of this event you had Ah, new update at Salesforce in partnership with AWS. Talk to us about it's the government cloud plus s o. You know what's entailed there? Uh, and, uh, tell us how AWS and Salesforce work together to launch this solution. >>Yeah, thanks Do. We are so excited to announce the launch of govcloud Plus, which is sales force is a customer 3 60 crm platform that runs on Amazon Web services in the govcloud in their govcloud environment. And we've just received a provisional 80 0 provisional authority to operate from the FEDRAMP program office at the high security level. So we are announcing govcloud Plus is fed ramp. I'm ready to go generally available and ready for customers. >>Excellent. Maybe bring us inside. You know what's different about how government agencies leverage sales force most companies out there, You know, Salesforce is a critical piece off how they manage, you know, number one, they're salesforce marketing and lots of other pieces, anything specific that we should understand about the public sector. >>Yeah, it's a great question because even our name Salesforce sounds like a commercial kind of thing to do. Governments don't think of themselves as selling, but if you break down to a level of detail about what governments actually do, it is the same kind of functions case management, its benefits delivery. It's communications and outreach. It's all the same kind of function that are necessary for commercial organizations to drive. And so that's what we do. We translate that into government ready terms so that they can serve child welfare, health information delivery record, former information, all kinds of services for the constituents of the public sector. And they might call them customers. They might call them citizens, residents constituent. But it's those they >>Yeah, well, what one of the things about Salesforce is, as you said, it's not just, you know, a sales tool. There's so much you've got a very broad and deep ecosystem. Their asses Well, as you know, people that know how to use it, they get underneath the covers. You know, when I think of not only a sales force. You know, the first company that I probably thought of and heard about that it was SAS. But if you talk about the AP economy, if you talk about how things integrate, Salesforce does a lot for developers. So I know one of the other pieces you had. There's everybody knows Dream Force. Maybe not as many people know, that trailhead DX show that that that Salesforce has had for developers. So bring us a little bit inside. What would Salesforce is doing for developers? And, of course, the government angle along those lines, too? >>Yeah, there's a lot going on in the developer world. We were glad to be able to host a virtual version of our trailhead developer conference and announced a lot of exciting new developments, including salesforce anywhere, which is really bringing an immersive voice, video and chat environment to collaborate in the developer environment and into the delivery environment. And you bring that into the public sector. And the benefits are amazing because one of the key challenges with government is keeping up with the pace of the public expectations. In a pace of change in the commercial world, all of the shop and bank and live on our mobile devices. And governments are being faced with the same expectations from the public to do any time anywhere personalized delivery as the code rapid development environments that force offers give public sector I t team the ability to quickly and respond to changing conditions like the code 19 pandemic and roll out applications that are not only fast to develop into boy but they also benefit from being in the govcloud environment. And so the compliance is party built in and that's another key challenges. Often it rises. The public sector is not almost building new applications and making sure they're secure with Salesforce all built in >>Yeah, sounds sounds a lot of sis similarity to what we hear in the private sector, of course, that the balance between what it is doing and how we enable developers, of course security, you mentioned super important anything specifically from the government sector that you'd say, Well, that might be different from what we see in the general enterprise world. >>You know, the but security is top of mind for the public sector, always because they're dealing with the most sensitive data they're dealing with the public trust and trust is really the currency of government. They're not dealing in profit and market share, but they are dealing in a public trust and protecting information like financial data, health data, personal data. And so it's essential that the government had the best in class commercial tools to make sure they are providing world class security for for their their constituents in their mission. And that's one reason we're so excited to be partnering with AWS on Golf Club was because Amazon AWS has already deployed the Fed Ramp I version of their infrastructures of service. And so, by riding on top of that, we inherit all of those existing controls at our own Fed ramp controls. And our customers benefit from the best in class security from two of the most trusted name in public Cloud >>Great. You know, absolutely. Govcloud has been a real boon for the entire industry. When it talks about how government agencies they're leveraging cloud, you talked about sitting on top of ah govcloud the government cloud plus, you know, leverages some of the certifications and like, can you bring us inside a little bit? How long did this effort take? to get anything specific in the integrations were, you know, functionality that that you might be able to highlight about this joint effort. >>Yeah, we've been working on for some time now because it's it's essential to really think from the ground up. And this is not just re platform ing our cloud solutions on AWS. It is rethinking the whole architecture so that we really are organically taking advantage of infrastructure services that AWS provides. So it is a really deep integration. And it's not only a technical tech, integration is the strategic partnership, and you're going to see a lot more now that's coming from both of us about the integration capabilities we're bringing together and a lot of the work we're going to be doing to continue to bring innovation to our joint customers. >>Excellent. You made reference to the pandemic. Uh, what are you hearing from your customers? How does this new offering impact them and support them both? Today is they're reacting to what happens as well as you know, going forward as we progress. >>Yes. Do you know the coveted 19 pandemic really exposed fault line in government programs that weren't scale to meet this demand. We saw website crashing when people were going to them and just overwhelming them with questions about the health situation. We saw benefits programs that only works where people could come in and sign up in a fly in person and obviously with government offices shut down, that wasn't an option. And a lot of government workers were sent home to tell a work without much notice, and their infrastructure just couldn't support it. And so just in general, there are a lot of breakdown along the way. But the good news is that a lot of public sector organizations and programs making that pivot quickly. For example, we worked with one state agency that experienced a 400% spikes in demand for applications for unemployment benefits. It makes sense people are out of work. They need unemployment benefit. But they just couldn't respond to that kind of surging demand. So we worked with them along with AWS and in less than a week stood up a virtual contact center with chatbots so that could meet the demand and provide those vital services to their residents at a time of real needs. So there's a lot to the optimistic about in the middle of this crisis, there is a lot of transformation happening. This kind of forcing function is producing a lot of innovation, transformation. And I think it's really going to make a fundamental shift in how we re imagined government in the future. >>Yeah. Okay, so you're absolutely right that this pandemic has shown a real spotlight on where you know what works and what doesn't, Um, and I think about not only government, but you know, a lot of how finances were often times you have your plans in place, you have your budgets in place. You have, you know, funding cycles. So you know what? What our sales force and Amazon doing to help those you talk about. They have to ramp things up a weight where they financially ready for this. Some companies Oh, wait. I have to temporarily dial things down. That's not in my 12 month or 36 month plan. So are there things that you're doing to help customers, you know, short term in and long term? Are you seeing some? Some change in how people think about their planning and how they could be ready for what change happens out there. >>Yeah, you know, one of the big findings from this whole experience, not just in the public sector but across every industry has been that digital transformation may in the past has been viewed as a nice to have. It is now really the only way to connect and serve both customers and employees, and so digital First, digital transformation is rapidly becoming an urgent imperative because this situation is is not going away overnight. And even when we get back to some state of normal, it's going to be different. It's a digital first and being able to move quickly to roll out services rapidly, to be able to start small and then scale rapidly. These are things that benefit any organization, whether it's government or commercial. >>Excellent. Okay, so I'll let you have the final word. What people want. What you want people to have is their take away of salesforce is participation in the AWS public sector online event. >>We are just so excited to be here with AWS to jointly come to our customers with govcloud plus the fed ramp. I authorized environment for the best in class theory, M and customer and employee services. Our partnership with AWS is one that we're excited about. You're going to see a lot more announcements coming to. It's not only a technology integration, it's also a strategic partnership. And we think our customers jointly. Just going to be really excited about the development. So thank you for the time and glad to be here. >>All right, well, thank you so much. Casey. Congratulations on the government cloud plus launch. And absolutely look forward to hearing more about it. >>Thank you. >>Alright. Be sure to stay tuned. Lots more coverage of the Cube at AWS Public Sector Summit online. I'm Stew Minimum. And thank you for watching the Cube. >>Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of AWS Public Sector Online. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of AWS Public Sector's Summit Online. We've done this show for many years, of course, this time it's online rather than in person in the District of Washington, D.C. Happy to welcome to the program first time guest, a very good partner of AWS's, from Salesforce, it's Casey Coleman. She is the Senior Vice President of Global Government Solutions, once again, with Salesforce. Casey, thanks so much for joining us. >> Stu, thank you, glad to be here. >> All right, so first of all maybe, if you could, give us a little bit of level set, your role at Salesforce and obviously a long partnership with Amazon. Tell us a little bit about that. >> Yes, my role at Salesforce is to work with our customers in the public sector, globally, and really help them map out their digital transformation. You know, it's an ongoing journey and we help them understand how to break that down into actionable steps and really transform what they're doing to server their constituents and citizens better. >> Excellent, so of course, at the Public Sector Show a lot about leverage of GovCloud and the other services, all of the compliance that goes into that. Ahead of this event, you had a new update at Salesforce in partnership with AWS. Talk to us about it's the Government Cloud Plus. So what's entailed there? And tell us how AWS and Salesforce work together to launch this solution. >> Yeah, thanks Stu. We are so excited to announce the launch of GovCloud Plus which is Salesforce's Customer 360 CRM platform that runs on Amazon Web Services in the GovCloud in their GovCloud environment and we've just received a provisional APO provisional authority to operate from the FedRAMP Program office at the high security level. So we are announcing GovCloud Plus is FedRamp High, ready to go, generally available and ready for customers. >> Excellent, maybe bring us inside. What's different about how government agencies leverage Salesforce. For most companies out there, Salesforce is a critical piece of how they manage not only their sales force but marketing and lots of other pieces, anything specific that we should understand about the public sector. >> Yeah, it's a great question because even our name, Salesforce, sounds like a commercial kind of thing to do. Governments don't think of themselves as selling, but if you break down to a level of detail about what governments actually do, it is the same kind of functions. It's case management, it's benefits delivery, it's communications and outreach, it's all the same kind of functions that are necessary for commercial organizations to thrive. And so that's what we do, we translate that into government-ready terms so that they can serve child welfare, health information delivery, patient records, farmer information, all kinds of services for constituents of the public sector. And they might call them customers, they might call them citizens, residents, constituents, but it's those they serve. >> Yeah, well one of the things about Salesforce is, as you said, it's not just a sales tool, there's so much. You've got a very broad and deep ecosystem there as well as people that know how to use it. They get underneath the covers. When I think of not only is Salesforce the first company that I probably thought of and heard about that it was SaaS, but if you talk about the API economy, if you talk about how things integrate, Salesforce does a lot for developers. So I know one of the other pieces you had that everybody knows Dreamforce, maybe not as many people know the TrailheaDX Show that Salesforce just had for developers, so bring us a little bit inside what Salesforce is doing for developers and of course, the government angle along those lines, too. >> Yeah, there's a lot going on in the developer world. We were glad to be able to host a virtual version of our Trailhead Developer Conference and announce a lot of exciting, new developments, including Salesforce Anywhere which his really bringing an immersive voice, video, and chat environment to collaborate in the developer environment and in the delivery environment. And you bring that into the public sector and the benefits are amazing because one of the key challenges with government is keeping up with the pace of the public expectations at a pace of change in the commercial world. All of us shop and bank, and live on our mobile devices, and governments are being faced with the same expectations from the public to do anytime, anywhere, personalized service delivery. It's the (audio distortion) rapid development environment that Salesforce offers gives the public sector IT teams the ability to quickly respond to changing conditions like the COVID-19 pandemic, and rollout applications that are not only fast to develop and deploy, but they also benefit from being in the GovCloud environment, and so the compliance is already built in. And that's another key challenge that often arises, the public sector (audio distortion) is not only fielding new applications but making sure they're secure, and so with Salesforce, it's all built in. >> Yeah, it sounds a lot of system similarity to what we hear in the private sector. Of course, the balance between what IT is doing and how we enable developers. Of course, security, you mentioned, is super important. Anything, specifically, from the government sector that you'd say might be different from what we see in the general enterprise world? >> You know, the security is top of mind for the public sector, always, because they're dealing with the most sensitive data. They're dealing with the public trust. And trust is really the currency of government. They're not dealing in profit and market share, but they are dealing in a public trust and protecting information like financial data, health data, personal data, and so it's essential that the government has the best in class commercial tools to make sure they are providing world class security for their constituents and their mission. And that's one reason we're so excited to be partnering with AWS on GovCloud Plus because Amazon AWS has already deployed the FedRAMP High version of their infrastructures and service, and so by riding on top of that, we inherit all of those existing controls, add our own FedRAMP High controls, and our customers benefit from the best in class security from two of the most trusted names in the Public Cloud. >> Great, you know, absolutely, GovCloud has been a real boon for the entire industry when it talks about how government agencies are leveraging Cloud. You talked about sitting on top of GovCloud, the Government Cloud Plus leverages some of the certifications and the like. Can you bring us inside a little bit? How long did this effort take to get? Anything specific in the integrations or functionality that you might be able to highlight about this joint effort? >> Yeah we've been working on it for some time now, because it's essential to really think from the ground, up. And this is really not just re-platforming our Cloud solutions on AWS, it is rethinking the whole architecture so that we really are organically taking advantage of infrastructure services that AWS provides. So it is a really deep integration. And it's not only a tech integration, it's a strategic partnership too, and you're going to see a lot more announcements coming from both of us about the integration, the capabilities we're bringing together. And a lot of the work we're going to be doing continue to bring innovation to our joint customers. >> Excellent. You made reference to the pandemic. What are you hearing from your customers? How does this new offering impact them and support them both, today, as they're reacting to what happens as well as going forward, as we progress? >> Yeah, Stu, you know, the COVID-19 pandemic really exposed a fault line in government programs that weren't scaled to meet this demand. We saw Websites crashing when people were going to them, and just overwhelming them with questions about the health situation. We saw benefits programs that only worked when people could come in and sign up and apply in person, and obviously, with government offices shut down, that wasn't an option. And a lot of government workers were sent home to tele-work without much notice, and their infrastructure just couldn't support it. And so just in general, there was a lot of breakdowns along the way. But the good news is that a lot of public sector organizations and programs are making that pivot quickly. For example, we worked with one state agency that experienced a 400% spike in demand for applications for unemployment benefits. It makes sense. People are out of work, they need unemployment benefits, but they just couldn't respond to that kind of surge in demand. So we worked with them along with AWS and in less than a week, stood up a virtual contact center with chatbot so they could meet the demand and provide those vital services for their residents at a time of real need. So there's a lot to be optimistic about in the middle of this crisis; there is a lot of transformation happening. This kind of forcing function is producing a lot of innovation and transformation and I think it's really going to make a fundamental shift in how we reimagine government in the future. >> Yeah, Casey, you're absolutely right. This pandemic has shown a real spotlight on what works and what doesn't. And I think about not only government, but a lot of how finances work. Oftentimes, you have your plans in place, you have your budgets in place, you have funding cycles, so what are Salesforce and Amazon doing to help those customers? You talk about they have to ramp things up. Oh wait, were they financially ready for this? Some companies, "Oh wait, I have to temporarily "dial things down that's not in my 12-month "or 36-month plan." So are there things that you're doing to help customers short-term and long-term? Are you seeing some change in how people think about their planning and how they can be ready for what change happens out there? >> Yeah, one of the big findings from this while experience, not just in the public sector, but across every industry, has been that digital transformation may, in the past, have been viewed as a nice-to-have. It is now really the only way to connect and serve both the customers and employees, and so digital first, digital transformation is rapidly becoming an urgent imperative because this situation is not going away overnight. And even when we get back to some state of normal, it's going to be different. And so digital first and being able to move quickly to rollout services rapidly, to be able to start small and then scale rapidly, these are things that benefit any organization, whether it's government or commercial. >> Excellent, well Casey, I'll let you have the final word what you want people to have as their takeaway of Salesforce's participation in the AWS Private Sector Online Event. >> We are just so excited to be here with AWS to jointly come to our customers with GovCloud Plus, the FedRAMP High authorized environment for the best in class CRM, and customer and employee services. Our partnership with AWS is one that we're excited about. You're going to see a lot more announcements coming soon. It's not only a technology integration, it's also a strategic partnership, and we think our customers are, jointly, just going to be really excited about the development. So thank you for the time and glad to be here. >> All right, well thank you so much, Casey. Congratulations on the Government Cloud Plus launch and absolutely look forward to hearing more about it in the future. >> Thank you, Stu. >> All right, be sure to stay tuned. Lots more coverage of theCUBE at AWS Public Sector Summit Online. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching theCUBE. (soft electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Live from San Francisco it's theCUBE. Covering IBM Think 2019. Brought to you by IBM >> Welcome back to theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin with John Furrier and we are on a rainy San Francisco day. Day three of theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2019 here to talk shopping. One of my favorite topics. We have Katie Dunlap VP of Global Unified rather Commerce and Marketing for Bluewolf part of IBM. Katie welcome to theCUBE. >> Welcome, thank you. >> And from Salesforce we have Ben Cesare Senior Director of Global Industry Retail Solutions. Ben it's great to have you on our program. >> How are you? >> Excellent. >> Good. >> Even though we are at the rejuvenated Moscone Center which is fantastic and I think all of the hybrid multi cloud have opened upon San Francisco. >> Right. >> It's a very soggy day. So Katie IBM announced a partnership with Salesforce a couple of years ago. >> Right. >> Just yesterday John and I were chatting. We heard Ginni Rometty your CEO talk about IBM is number one implementer of Salesforce. Talk to us a little bit about the partnership before we get into some specific examples with that. >> So we know that part of that partnership it's really to leverage the best of the technology from Salesforce as well as IBM and ways that we together married together create opportunities for the industry and specifically here today we're talking about retail. >> So on the retail side Salesforce as a great SAS company they keep on blowing the records on the numbers performance wise. SAS business has proven it's a cloud business but retails is a data business. >> Yes. >> So how does IBM look at that? What's the relationship with retail? What's the solution? >> Yeah. >> And what are people looking at Salesforce for retail. >> Yeah, I think it's really important to understand where our strengths are and I think when you talk about Salesforce you talk about Marketing Cloud and Commerce Cloud, Service Cloud. We call that the engagement layer. That's how we can really interact with our consumers with our shoppers. But at the same time to really have a great connection with consumers you need to have great data. You need have great insights. You need to understand what's happening with all the information that drives choices for retailers and that's why the relationship with IBM is absolutely so strong and it is a data driven relationship. Together I guess you can see the customers in the middle. So we have our engagement layer and a data layer. Together we satisfy the customer. >> Lisa what's the solution specifically because obviously you guys going to market together to explain the tactical relationship. You guys join sale, is it an integration? >> Sure. So what we have done given the disruption that's happening right now in the retail space and with the customer at the center of that conversation we've been looking at ways that what the native functionality for Salesforce is Einstein as an intelligent layer and for IBM it's Watson. So where do they complement one another? And so looking at retail with commerce and marketing and service as the center of that conversation and engagement layer. How are we activating and working with a customer from a collection of data information standpoint and activating that data all through supply chain. So the experience is not just the front experience that you and I have when we go to a site it's actually how and when is that delivered to me. If I have an issue how am I going to return that. So we've looked at the entire customer journey and looked at ways that we can support and engage along the way. So for us, we're looking at as you see retail and the way it's evolving is that we're no longer just talking about that one experience where you're actually adding to your cart and your buying. It goes all the way through servicing that customer returning and making sure that information that's specific to me. And if I can choose how I'm going to have that inventory sent to me and those products sent to me. That's exactly what we're looking to do. >> So then the retailer like a big clothing store is much more empowered than they've ever been. Probably really demanded by us consumers who want to be able to do any transaction anywhere started on my phone finish on a tablet, etc. So I can imagine maybe Ben is this like a Watson and Einstein working together to say take external data. Maybe it's weather data for example and combine those external data sources with what a retailer has within their customer database and Salesforce to create very personalized experiences for us shoppers as consumers. >> Right, and where retailers really can grow in terms of the future is really accessing all that data. I think if you look at some of the statistics retailers have up to 29 different systems of records and that's why some of our experiences are very good some of our experiences are not very good. So together if we can collapse that data in a uniform way that really drives personalization, contextual selling so you can actually see what you're buying why you're buying it, why it's just for me. That's the next level and I must say with all the changes in the industry there's some things that will never change and that is consumers want the right product, the right price, the right place and the right time. All enveloped in a great customer experience. That will never change but today we have data that can inform that strategy and when I was a senior merchant at Macy's years ago, I had no data. I had to do a lot of guessing and when mistakes are made that's when retailers have a problem. So if retailers are using data to it's benefit it just make sure that the customer experiences exceptional. And that's what we strive to do together. >> And I can build on that if we're thinking like specifically how we're engaged from a technology perspective. If I'm a merchandiser and I decide I want to run a promotion for New York and I want to make sure before I run that promotion that I have the right inventory and that I not only I'm I creating the right message but I have the information that I need in order to make that successful. One of the things that we partner with Salesforce on is the engagement layer being Salesforce. But in the back end we have access to something called Watson Embedded Business Agent and that business agent actually goes out and talks to all the disparate systems. So it doesn't have to be solutions that are necessarily a homegrown by IBM or Salesforce Watson could actually integrate directly with them and sits on top. So as a merchandiser I can ask the question and receive information back from supply chain. Yes there's enough product in New York for you to run this promotion. It can go out and check to see if there's any disruption that's expected and check in with weather so that as on the back end from an operation standpoint I'm empowered or the right data in order to run those promotions and be successful. >> It's interesting one of the things that comes up with her this expression from IBM. There's no AI without IA information architecture. You talk about systems of record all this silo databases. There's low latency you need to be real time in retail. So this is a data problem, right? So this is where AI really could fit in. I see that happening. The question that I have as a consumer is what's in it for me? Right? So Ben, tell us about the changes in retail because certainly online buying mobile is happening. But what are some of the new experiences that end users and consumers are seeing that are becoming new expectations? What's the big trend in retail? >> Well there's two paths they're your expectations as a consumer, then there's the retailer path and how they can meet your expectations. So let's talk about you first. So what you always want is a great customer experience. That's what you want. And what defines that is are they serving me the products I want when I want them? Are they delivering them on time? Do the products work? If I have a problem, how am I treated? How am I served? And these are all the things that we address with the Salesforce solutions. Now let's talk about the retailer. What's important to the retailer is next retailer myself. It was important that I understood what is my right assortment? And that's hard because you have a broad audience of consumers, you have regional or local requirements. So you want to understand what's the right assortment and working with IBM with their (mumbles) optimizer that helps us out in terms how we promote through our engagement later. That's number one. Number two, how about managing markdowns. This year there were over $300 billion in markdown through retailers. Half of those markdowns 150 billion were unplanned markdowns and that goes right to your P&L. So we want to make sure that the things we do satisfy the consumer but not at the expense of the retailer. The retailer has to succeed. So by using IBM supply chain data information we can properly service you. >> It's interesting we see the trend in retail I mean financial services for early on. >> Yeah. >> High-frequency trading, use of data. That kind of mindset is coming to retail where if you're not a data driven or data architecturally thinking about it. >> Yeah. >> The profit will drop. >> Yeah. >> Unplanned markdowns and other things and inventory variety of things. This is a critical new way to really reimagine retail. >> Yeah retail has become such a ubiquitous term there's retail banking, there's retail in every parts of our life. It's not just the store or online but it's retail everywhere and someone is selling their services to you. So I think the holy grail is really understanding you specifically. And it's not just about historical transact which you bought but behavioral data. What interests you. What are the trends and data has become a much broader term. It's just not numbers. Data is what are your trends? What are you saying on social media? What are you tweeting out? What are you reading.? What videos are you viewing? All that together really gives a retailer information to better serve you. So data is really become exponential in it's use and in it's form. >> So I'm curious what you guys see this retails it's very robust retail use case as driving in the future. We just heard yesterday one of the announcements Watson anywhere. I'm curious leveraging retail as an example and the consumerization of almost any industry because we expect to have things so readily and as you both point out data is commerce. Where do you think this will go from here with Watson Einstein and some of the other technologies? What's the next prime industry that really can benefit from what you're doing in retail? >> I think that I'll start and probably you can add that in as well. But I think that it's going to bleed into everything. So health and life sciences, consumer goods, product goods. We've talked about retail being all different kinds of things right now. Well CPG organizations are actually looking at ways to engage the customer directly and so having access utilizing Watson as a way of engaging and activating data to create insights that you've never thought of before. And so being able to stay a step ahead anticipate the needs stay on the bleeding edge of that interaction so that you're engaging customers in a whole new way is what we see and it's going to be proliferated into all kinds of different industries. >> Yes, every merchant every buyer wants to be able to predict. I mean won't that be incredible be able to see around the corner a bit and and while technologies don't give you the entire answer they can sure get you along the way to make better decisions. And I think with Watson and Einstein it does exactly that. It allows you to really predict what the customers want and that's very powerful. >> I want to get you guys perspective on some trend that we're seeing. We hear Ginni Rometty talk about chapter two of the cloud, you almost say there's a chapter two in retail, if you look at the certainly progressive way out front, doing all the new things. People doing the basics, getting an online presence, doing some basic things with mobile kind of setting the table a foundations, but they stare at the data problem. They almost like so it's a big problem. I know all this systems of record. How do I integrate it all in? So take us through a use case of how someone would attack that problem. Talking about an example a customer or a situation or use case that says okay guys help me. I'm staring at this data problem, I got the foundation set, I want to be a retail have to be efficient and innovative in retail, what do I do? Do I call IBM up, do I call Salesforce? How does that work? Take us through an example. >> So I think the first example that comes to mind is I think about Sally Beauty and how they're trying to approach the market and looking at who they are and many retailers right now because there's such a desire to understand data. Make sure that your cap. Everyone has enough data. But what is the right data to activate and use in that experience. So they came to us to kind of look at are we in the right space because right now everyone's trying to be everything to all people. So how do I pick the right place that I should be and am I in the right place with hair care and hair color? And the answer came back yes. You are in the right space. You need to just dive deeper into that and make sure that that experience online so they used a lot of information from their research on users to understand who their customers are, what they're expecting. And since they sell haircare product that is professional grade. How do I make sure that the customers are getting using it in the proper way. So they've actually created an entire infused way of deciding what exactly hair color you need and for me as a consumer, am I actually buying the right grade level from me and am I using that appropriately. And that data all came from doing the research because they are about to expand out and add in all kinds of things like (mumbles) where you're going into the makeup area but really helping them stay laser focused on what they need to do in order to be successful. >> Because you guys come and do like an audit engage with them on a professional service level. >> Yes, we went end-to-end >> And the buying SAS AI and then they plug in Salesforce. >> Yes, so they actually already had Salesforce. So they had the commerce solution marketing and service. They were fairly siloed so we go back to that whole conversation around data being held individually but not leveraging that as a unit in order to activate that experience for the consumer. What they have decided as a result of our work with them. So we came in and did a digital strategy. We're been involved as an agency of record to support them and how that entire brand strategy should be from an omnichannel perspective in the store, as well as that digital experience and then they actually just decided to go with IBM (mumbles) and use that as a way of activating from an omnichannel order orchestration standpoint. So all the way through that lifecycle we've been engaging them and supporting them and Watson obviously native to Salesforce's Einstein and they're leveraging that but they will be infusing Watson as part of their experience. >> So another benefit that Sally Beauty and imagine other retailers and other companies and other industries, we get is optimizing the use of Salesforce. It's a very ubiquitous tool but you mentioned, I think you mentioned Ben that in the previous days of many, many, many systems of records. So I imagine for Sally Beauty also not just to be able to deliver that personalized customer experience, track inventory but it's also optimizing their internal workforce productivity. But I'm curious-- >> Yes. >> For an organization of that size. What's the time to impact? They come in you guys do the joint implementation, go to market, the consulting, identify the phases of the project, how quickly did Sally Beauty start to see a positive impact on their business? >> I think they... Well there's immediate benefits, right? Because they are already Salesforce clients and so our team our IBM team was able to come in and infuse some best practices and their current existing site. So they've been able to leverage that and see that benefit through all the way through Black Friday and last holiday season. And now what they're seeing is they're on the verge of launching and relaunching their site in the next month and then implementing (mumbles) is a part of that. So they're still on the path in the journey to that success but they've already seen success based on the support that we've provided them. >> And what are some of the learnings you guys have seen with this? Obviously you got existing accounts. They take advantage of this, what are some of the learnings around this new engagement layer and with the data intelligence around AI? What's the learnings have you guys seen? >> Yeah I think the leading thing that I've learned is the power of personalization. It's incredibly powerful. And a good example is one of my favorite grocers and that's Kroger. If we really understand what Kroger has done, I'll talk about their business a bit. I'll talk about what they've been able to do. If you look at someone's shopper basket there's an amazing amount of things you can learn about that. You can learn if they're trying to be fit if they're on a diet. You can learn if their birthdays coming. You can learn if they just had a baby. You can learn so many different things. So with shopper basket analysis, you can understand exactly what coupons you send them. So when I get coupons digital or in my home they're all exactly what I buy. But to do that for 25-30 million top customers is a very difficult thing to do. So the ability to analyze the data, segment it and personalize it to you is extremely powerful and I think that's something that retailers and CPG organizations how they continue to try to do. We're not all the way there. Were probably 30% there I would say but personalization it's going to drive customer for life. That's what it's going to do and that's a massive learning for us. >> And the other thing too Ginni mentioned it in her keynote is the reasoning around the data. So it's knowing that the interest and around the personas, etc. But it's also those surprises. Knowing kind of in advance, maybe what someone might like given their situation-- >> Anticipating. >> And we were talking about this morning. Actually, we're talking about behavioral data and data has taken a different term. >> Data is again what are you doing online what are you talking about, what did you view. What video did you look at. For organizations that have access to that data tells me so much more about your interest right now today. And it's not just about a product but it's about a lifestyle. And if retails could understand your lifestyle that opens the door to so many products and services. So I think that's really what retailers are really into. >> My final question for you guys both of you get the answer. Answer will be great is what's the biggest thing that is going to happen in retail that people may not see coming that's going to be empowering and changing people's lives? What do you guys see as a trend that's knocking on the door or soon to be here and changing lives and empowering people and making them better in life. >> Yeah, I'll jump in on one real quick and I think it's already started but it's really phenomenon of commerce anywhere. Commerce used to be a very linear thing. You'd see an ad some would reach out to you and you buy something. The commerce now is happening wherever you are. You could be tweeting something on Instagram, you could be walking in an airport. You could be anywhere and you can actually execute a transaction. So I think the distance between media and commerce has totally collapsed. It's become real time and traditional media TV, print and radio is still a big part of media. A big part but there's distance. So I think it's the immediacy of media and a transaction. That's really going to take retailers and CPG customers by surprise. >> It changes the direct-to-consumer equation. >> It changes it. It does. >> And I think I would just build on that to say that people have relationships with their brands and the way that you can extend that in this and commerce anywhere is that people don't necessarily need to know they're in that commerce experience. They're actually having a relationship with that individual brand. They're seen for who they are as an individual not a segment. I don't fall into a segment that I'm kind of like this but I'm actually who I am and they're engaging. So the way that I think we're going to see things go as people thinking at more and more out of the box about how to make it more convenient for me and to not hide that it's a commerce experience but to make that more of an engagement conversation that-- >> People centric not person in a database. >> Exactly. >> That's right. >> Moving away from marketing from segmentation and more to individual conversations. >> Yeah I think you said it Ben it's the power of personalization. >> Power of personalization. >> Katie, Ben thanks so much for joining. >> Thank you. >> Talking about what you guys IBM and Salesforce are doing together and we're excited to see where that continues to go. >> Great. >> Thanks so much. >> Our pleasure, thank you. >> We want to thank you for watching theCUBE live from IBM Think 19 I'm Lisa Martin for John Furrier stick around on Express. We'll be joining us shortly. (upbeat music)

>> From Palo Alto, California, it's theCUBE, covering the Conference Board's Sixth Annual Innovation Master Class. (fast techno music) >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We are at the Innovation Master Collab at Xerox PARC. It's put on by the Conference Board, a relatively small event, but really, a lot of high-caliber individuals giving really great presentations. And we're excited about our next guest, he kicked the whole thing off this morning, and we could go for hours. We won't go for hours, we'll go about 10 minutes. But Peter Coffee, he's the VP of Strategic Research for Salesforce. Been there a long time, but you were a media guy before that for many, many years? So Peter, great to see you. >> It's good to be with you, thanks. >> So, you talk about so many things. So many things in your opening statement, and I have a ton of notes. But let's just jump into it, I think. One of the big things is you know, the future happens faster than we expect it. And we as humans have a really hard time with exponential growth, because it's not built that way. That's the way things move. >> So how do you as a businessperson kind of deal with that reality? Because the issue is you're never going to be ready for when they come. >> Yeah, well, it's not just humans as individuals, but the institutions and processes we've built. If you look at the process of getting a college degree, it's really seriously misaligned with the timeframe of change. By the time you're a senior, half of the subject matter in your field may be new since your freshman year, and conversely four years after you've graduated, perhaps a third of what you were taught will no longer be considered to be current information. Someone at Motorola once said, "a batch process "no matter how much you accelerate it "doesn't become a continuous flow process". You have to rethink what does a continuous flow look like, and that's useful conversation to have getting back to your actual opening question. When we're talking with customers, we say what are your unvoiced assumptions about the manner in which you have succession of technology, succession of product, and so on? Can we try to see what it would look like if that were a continuous process and not a project process? Many of our partners will tell us that their most difficult conversations with their customers are about getting away from a project mentality, a succession of Big Bang changes, into a process in which transformation is a way of life and not a bold initiative that will take a big sigh of relief and congratulate yourself on having transformed. No, dude, you've gotten your running shoes tied now you can begin to run. But now the hard part begins. >> Right, and the sun comes up tomorrow and you start to run again. You talked on big shifts count on new abundance and use horsepower. >> George Gilder's phrase, "errors are punctuated "by a dramatic change from a scarcity "to an abundance" so for example, horsepower or bandwidth or intelligence. >> So now we're coming into the era of massive big data we are asymptotically approaching free compute, free storage, and free networking. So how do you get business leaders to kind of rethink in an era where they have basically infinite resources, and it always goes back, so what would you build then? Because we're heading that way even if we're not there today. >> A Jedi mind trick that I often use with them is to say, let's not talk about the next couple of quarters, I want you to imagine the next Winter Olympics. When they light the torch four years from now I want you to try to visualize the world you're pretty sure you'll be living in four years from now and work backwards from that and say well if we all agree that within four years that's going to get done, well there's some implications about things we should be doing now and some things that we should stop doing now if we know that four years from now, the world is going to look like this. It helps free your mind from the pressures of incremental improvement and meeting next quarterly goals. And instead saying, ya know, that's not going to be a thing in four years and we should stop getting better at doing something that's simply not going to be relevant in that short of a time. >> So hard though, right? Innovators still, I mean, that's the classic conundrum especially if it's something that you have paying customers and you're driving great revenue to, it's hard to face the music that that may not be so important down the path. >> The willingness to acknowledge that someone will disrupt you, so it might as well be you, you might as well disrupt yourself, the conversation was had with IBM back in the days of the IBM PC, that they thought that that might be a quarter of a million machines they would sell, but whatever you do, don't touch the bread and butter of the 3270 terminal business, right? And they did not ultimately succeed in visualizing the impact of what they had done. Ironically, because they didn't think it was that important, they opened all the technology, and so things like Microsoft becoming what it is and the fact that the bios was open and allowed the compatibles industry like Compact to emerge was a side effect of IBM failing to realize how big of a door they were opening for the world. You can start off a spinoff operation. At Salesforce we have a product line called Essentials which is specifically tasked with create versions of Salesforce that are packaged and priced and supported in a way that's suitable to that small business. And that way you can kind of uncouple from that Clayton Christensen innovators dilemma thing by acknowledging it's a separate piece of the business, it can be measured differently, rewarded differently, and it's going to convey itself maybe even through a genuinely different brand. This is an example that was used once with Disney which when it decided it wanted to get away from family and children's entertainment, and start making movies aimed at more adult audiences, fine, they created the Touchstone brand so they could do that without getting in the way of, or maybe even polluting, a brand that they spent so much time building. So branding is important. A brand is a set of promises, and if you want to make different promises to different people, have a different brand. >> Right, so I'm shifting gears 'cause you touched on so many great things. A really popular thing that's going on now is the conversion of products to services. And repackaging your product as a service. And you talked about the don't taze me bro story which has so many elements of fun and interesting but I thought the best part of it, though, was now they took it to the next step. And we're only a stones throw away from Tesla, a lot of innovation but I think one of the most kind of not reported on benefits of these connected devices and a feedback loop back to the manufacturer is how people are actually using these things, checking in from home, being able to do these updates. And you talk about how the TASER company now is doing all the services, it's not even a service, it's a process. I thought it's awesome. >> Taking a product and selling it at a subscription price does not turn it into a service, even though some people will say, well see now we're moving to a services model. If you're still delivering a product in a lumpy, change-it-every-couple-of-years way, you haven't really achieved that transformation. So you have to go back into more of a sense of I mean, look at the expectation people have of the apps on their smartphones, that they just get better all the time, that the update process is low-burden, low-complexity, low-risk, and you have to achieve that same fluidity of continuous improvement. So that's one of the differences. You can't just take the thing you sell, bill for it on a monthly subscription, and think that you achieved that transition. The thing that they folks who were once TASER and now are Axon, of which TASER is a sub-brand, they managed to elevate their view from the device in a police officer's hand to a process of which that device is a part. Which is the incident that begins, is concluded, results in a report, maybe results in a criminal prosecution, and they broadened the scope of the Axon services package to the point that now it is selling the proposition of increased peace officer productivity rather than merely the piece of hardware that's part of that. So being able to zoom out and really see the environment in which your product is used, and this relates to yet another idea which is that people are saying you got to think outside your box. It doesn't help if you get outside your box, but all of the people with whom you might want to collaborate are all still inside their boxes. And so you may actually have to invest in the transformation and interface development of partners or maybe even competitors, and isn't that a wild idea. Elon Musk at Tesla open sourced a lot of their technology with the specific goal of growing that whole ecosystem of charging stations and other things so Tesla could be a great success. And the comment that I once made is it doesn't help if you're a perfect drop of artisanal oil in a world of water. You have to make the world capable of interacting with you and supporting you if you really want to grow. Or else you're an oddity, you're Betamax, which might have been technically superior but by failing to really build the ecosystem around it, wound up losing big time to VHS for a while. I may have to explain to all of your viewers under the age of 30 what VHS and Betamax even mean. >> I was sellin' those, I could tell you the whole Panasonic factory optimization story, which is whole 'nother piece of that puzzle. So that's good, so I'm going to shift gears again. >> You have to look a big perspective, you have to be prepared to forget that your excellence is your product, and start thinking of that as just the kernel of what needs to be your real proposition which is the need you meet, the pain you address, the process of which you become an inseparable part instead of a substitutable chunk of hardware. >> Well and I think too it's embracing the ongoing relationship as part of the process, versus selling something to your distribution and off it goes you cash the check and you build another one. >> Well that's another aspect, we've got whole industries where there's been a waterfall model. Automobiles were a particular example. Where manufacturers wholesaled cars to distributors who gave them the small markup to dealers who owned the buyer customer. And dealers would be very hostile to manufacturers trying to get involved in that relationship. But now because of the connected vehicles the manufacturer may know things about the manner of use of the vehicle and about the preliminary engagement of the prospective buyer with the manufacturers website. And so improving that relationship from a futile model, or a waterfall model, into a collaborative model is really necessary if all these great digital aspects are to have any value. >> Right, right, right. And as a distribution of information that desire to get a level of knowledge is no longer the case, there's so much more. >> Well it's scary how easy it is to do it wrong. IDC just did a study about the use in retail banking of technology like apps and websites. Which that industry was congratulating itself on adopting in ways that reduce the cost of things like bank office hours. And yet J.D. Power has found that the result is that customers no longer see differentiation among banks, are less loyal, more easily seduced by $50 to open a new bank account with direct deposit. And so innovation's a vector, and if you aim it at cost reduction, you'll get one set of results. And if you aim it at customer satisfaction improvement, you'll innovate differently, and ultimately I think much more successfully. >> Right, right, so we're almost out of time here. I want to go down one more path with you which I love. You talked a lot about visualization, you brought up some old NOPs, really talked about context, right? In the right context, this particular visualization is of value. And there's a lot of conversation about visualization especially with big data. And something I've been looking for, and maybe you've got an answer is, is there a visualization of a billion data point dataset that I can actually look at the visualization and see something, and see the insight. 'Cause most of the ones we see that are examples, they're very beautiful and there's a lot of compound shapes going on, but to actually pinpoint an actionable something out of that array, often times I don't see, I wonder if you have any good examples that you've seen out there where you can actually use visualization to drive insight from a really, really big dataset. >> Well if a big data exercise produces a table of numbers, then someone's going to have to apply an awful lot of understanding to know which numbers look odd. But a billion points, to use your initial question, well what is that? That's an array that's 1,000 by 1,000 by 1,000. We look at 1,000 by 1,000 two-dimensional screens all the time, visualizing a three-dimensional 1,000 by 1,000 cube is something we could do. And if there is use of color, use of motion, superposition of one over another with highlighting of what's changed, what people need most is for their attention to be drawn to what's changing or what's out of a range. And so it's tremendously important that people who are presenting the output of a big data exercise go beyond the high-resolution snapshot, if you will, and construct at least some sense of A B. Back in the ancient days of astronomy, they had a thing called the Blink Camera which would put two pictures side-by-side and simply let you flip back-and-forth between the images, and the human eye turned out to be amazingly good. There could be thousands of stars in that picture, the one dot that's moving and represents some new object, the one dot that suddenly appears, the human brain is very good at doing that. And there's a misperception that the human eye's just a camera. The eye does a lot of pre-processing before it ever sends stuff to the brain. And understanding what human vision does, it impressed the heck out of me the first time I had a consultation on the big data program at a university where the faculty waiting to meet with me turned out to be from the schools of Computer Science, Mathematics, Business, and Visual Arts. And having people with a sense of visual understanding and human perception in the room is going to be that critical link between having data and having understanding of opportunity threat or change. And that's really where it has to go. So if you just ask yourself, how can I add an element of color, or motion, or something else that the human eye and brain have millennia of evolution to get good at detecting, do that. And you will produce something that changes behavior and doesn't just give people facts >> Right, right. Well, Peter, thank you for taking a few minutes. We could go on, and on, and on. >> Happy to do chapters two, three, and four any time you like, yeah. >> We'll do chapter two at the new tower downtown. >> Any old time, thanks so much. >> Thanks for stoppin' by. >> My pleasure. >> He's Peter, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE. We're at the Master Innovation Class at Xerox PARC put on by the Conference Board. Thanks for watching. (fast techno music)

>> Live from San Francisco, it's the Cube covering Conga, Connect West 2018 Brought to you by Conga. >> Hey, welcome back everybody Jeff Frick with the Cube, we're at Salesforce Dreamforce in downtown, San Francisco, 170,000 people. As I said before please take public transit, take a scooter, take a bird, but do not get on the roads. We're excited to be here. We have our first guest from Salesforce. We're so excited. It's Greg Gsell, he's the VP of Product Marketing, Salesforce CPQ and billing. Greg, great to see you. >> Really happy to be here. >> Along with him is Ken Cavallon the EDP of Conga. Great to see you. >> Nice to meet you as well, thanks for having us here. >> Oh, for sure. So first off, Greg, you've been with, said almost your 13th anniversary with Salesforce. >> That's correct, my 13th, been with the company for 12 years. First band I saw was Train and there was about 5000 people at the conference. >> I was going to say, I want to get your perspective. There was 5000 people at the conference. >> Yeah, maybe a little bit more than that, but it was right around there, so it was much smaller. We only had one of the Moscone buildings. We were still growing as fast as we could back then. >> Did they bring this cruise ship in this year? I can't remember. I remember Lynn Vojvodich brought the cruise ship in a couple of years ago for a room. >> The dream boat has not come back. It made one appearance and I have not been back for the conference yet. >> Okay, so a lot of stuff going on, obviously you guys work very close together, but today some big product announcements, over the last couple of days, what if you can kind of run through those for us? >> Yeah, it's been super exciting. So we've been working with Conga for a long time. They've been a great Salesforce partner since 2006, I think. Now we just announced a brand new product Conga quote generation for Salesforce CPQ and Conga invoice generation for Salesforce billing, which is a purpose filled application that allows our CPQ and billing customers to build pixel perfect quotes using Conga right inside a Salesforce CPQ. It's a great product announcement. >> So you've integrated the Conga functionality into the Salesforce application around that specific >> Exactly right. >> Application. >> Exactly right. >> So why did you go that way? Why didn't you just build it yourself? >> We do configure pricing quotes, you're generating a quote and a quote's not good unless it gets signed by a customer. So generating the documents is such an integral part of that process. Conga's one of the leaders so we decided to make this partnership to bring it all together. >> That's great. So Ken, you got to be pretty excited. You got to like that, huh? >> I'm extremely excited about this opportunity, I've been working with Salesforce for the last ten years, in many other capacities as a partner on the outside looking in. This has been an amazing experience, having Salesforce bring a partner to the inside saying help us solve these customers' problems. I mean Salesforce is all about customer success and helping customers be more successful. It was phenomenal to see an ecosystem owner like Salesforce realize that they could use a partner to actually drive more success for their customers. As the leader in document generation, on the Salesforce platform, we help make those pixel perfect format-friendly documents out of the customer's data in Salesforce applying their rules and their templates to their format, the way they want it. The CPQ team, the CPQ and billing team came to us and said as the best in doc gen we want you guys to produce the quotes that come out of our quoting system. The Salesforce CPQ system is amazing. We're also a customer. We use the technology, not just the Salesforce platform, but Salesforce CPQ as well. We know what it's like to actually need to satisfy a customer in getting that sale through the funnel faster. Being able to tie these two technologies together and allow the Salesforce themselves to take this to the customer, they now have one point of contact where they can get all of CPQ in the way they want it. >> It's really interesting as people think about the generation, kind of the mechanics of working through the configuration and all the options, that's a really simple thing to generate a document that somebody can actually sign. Pretty important step that a lot of people don't tie the whole bow back together. >> That's right, that's right. >> So now we've got the best of breed in both solutions coming together and being able to take to market by the Salesforce team. I actually am not really familiar with another opportunity where there's been a partner that can actually support Salesforce in that way. Generally Salesforce takes Salesforce products to market and then to have the us take to market on their price book and in their quotes to their customers is a great privilege. We treat it that way, working with Greg and his team on the product marketing side, with Dan and his team on the technology side, to build a new product on Lightning, as a Lightning component to take it to market. Great experience. >> So Greg, I'm just curious, that's a super development, you've been working on the CPQ and the billing for a while. What are some of the things on your road map, what are some of the priorities that you got as you look forward? >> Sure, on CPQ and billing we just launched billing about three weeks ago, so billing completes the last mile of the sales cycle, so it's where we've really been focused. Billing allows all of our customers to generate invoices to collect payment, to automate their renewals, it really transforms a new business model. Still enabling our customers to take advantage of the subscription based or recurring revenue based business model that we hear so much about in our consumer life. We're really bringing those business models into new companies and enabling them to launch new products. That's where our head's at, we've been really focused on billing, we're really excited to bring that to market here at Dreamforce. >> So I wonder if you can unpack some of the complexity around subscriptions and some of these new kind of business relationships between vendors and customers. Because it's not just the I buy it, get an invoice, and we can finish the transaction, but there's all these new variances. The subscription thing is huge and a growing piece of the economy. >> Subscriptions are nothing new, right, newspaper subscriptions have been around for hundreds of years. So it's not a new concept, but taking that and applying it in a B to B setting is actually is really new because it gets really complex. The devil is in the details here. A traditional back end systems, your ERP, were built to quote a widget, sell a widget, and bill for a widget, then you collect your money and you move on. It's not that recurring relationship. With billing, it was subscription based products and recurring relationships, now midway through that contract, you could upgrade, you could swap out a product, you could renew early. There's so many different variations that you could do and you actually have to go in and amend that contract. In the past, all of our customers had their contract, it's a piece of paper with an actual signature on it, long before Conga Sign, that sat in someone's folder, in a drawer in the basement. It's very, very difficult to actually go back in and amend that contract in your ERP system. So we see lots of challenges with scale, manual processes, manually updating data, that physically prevented companies from moving into this subscription model. But now with Salesforce billing, bill right on the Salesforce platform, we are able to unlock that, enable all these new dramatic changes. >> Then we talked earlier, Ken, with some other people from Conga about the contract management piece of that too that's got to dovetail in with the billing and everything else because the T's and C's depending on what you buy, how much you buy, and when you buy could be very, very different, right? >> It can govern the next sell. As Greg was talking about transforming that configure pricing quote process to modernize business, to allow for these new business models, Conga wraps around Salesforce CPQ and billing to help digially transform the sales business process. Better presentations, built out of data that are customized to a specific customer engagement, better proposals that can lead to the quoting process so that you can make sure that the customer really knows what they're buying and then is able to get a quote. Better set of reports that come afterwards to show that consumption and visualize for the customer and help them understand what to buy next. Then Conga invoice generation for Salesforce billing generates that actual invoice document for them. This entire sales business process digitally transformation journey, a lot of customers are in that journey today and they just really don't know how to do it and they can unlock the power of Salesforce and all that technology they've got with the custom master records so they can move that throughout the entire sales process. That's what Conga's here to do and we're here to do in partnership with Salesforce CPQ and billing. >> Just curious, how much of the push to these types of development to the application are driven by the customer request like hey, we want to do some of these new things, can you please put it in, or is it more, hey, now you have this, classic chicken and egg, now you can start to explore some of these transformative ways of doing business? What do you kind of see in the field, is it more of we want it, or here you have it, now we can do it? >> Different customers are at different points in their journey in that digital transformation. This is the fourth industrial revolution where we're going from where we were in the past of that transactional business where it starts and stops and you have to restart it again to a constant flow of business that they have with their customers. Depending upon where they are in that journey, depends on whether or not they're pulling us along, saying I've got to innovate further, or we have to go explore with them what's possible, the art of possible. I have to give Marc and the Salesforce team a lot of credit. Salesforce over the last 20 years has done such an amazing job at helping business figure out how to unlock that potential that they've got, and this platform has allowed Conga to thrive. Conga was born on the AppExchange a little more than 10 years ago, we've grown with the AppExchange ever since and as you can see from this great event we've got going on here today, we're able to solve a lot of customers' problems. To answer your question directly, it's where they are in that journey depends on whether or not they need a little push, or they're going to pull us. >> Right, so Greg, a little shifting gears. I'm just curious from a product marketing, product development point of view, when you operate with such a robust ecosystem and you're making decisions as to what do we buy, what do we partner, what do we integrate, of the 100,000 plus whatever people here, a whole lot of them are partners. It's a super robust ecosystem, so as you look at that, how do you prioritize or you kind of looking for partners for new things or you looking for them to fill holes, how do you fit that portfolio into what you're trying to build natively in the product? >> Sure I mean it always just comes back to customer success. We listen to our customers and we see what is available out there and we look to partners like Conga and the rest of the three, four thousand plus applications, I think on the AppExchange to make sure that we're filling all of our customers' needs. It's always about what is going to help our customers be the most successful in the fourth industrial revolution like Ken was saying. >> Ken, Greg, congrats on the announcement, on the integration. I'm sure it will have tremendous success for both of you. >> Thank you very much. >> He's Ken, he's Greg, I'm Jeff, you're watching the Cube. We're at Conga Connect West at Dreamforce at the Thirsty Bear, come on down, free food, free drink, and free I think entertainment. Thanks for watching.

(dramatic music) >> Hi I'm Peter Burris, and welcome to another CUBE Conversation from our wonderful Palo Alto studios in beautiful Palo Alto, California. Another great conversation today, this one's especially interesting to me, we've got Tiffani Bova who's the Global Growth and Innovation Evangelist of Salesforce. Just written a book, great book by the way, Growth IQ, I guess it's coming out later in August of 2018. But Tiffani, I want to talk a little bit about something that seems near and dear to your heart, the notion of customer engagement and how that gets turned into business strategy. So, let's start there. What is, in your two and half years at Saleforce, what have you learned about customer engagement and how actionable is it, really? >> Well, you know, Peter, it's a great question 'cause I'd say this, you know, I thought I knew the answer to that question when I stated two and a half years ago and I've had the wonderful pleasure of spending time with customers of ours around the world and now I have a different perspective on what that is. You know, Clayton Christensen wrote that new book, Competing Against Luck and it was all about, sort of, the job that you have to do, right? You're going to go from point A to point B, are you going to catch a taxi or you going to catch an Uber. And what makes the difference if the job is the same, regardless of what you're doing. In my mind, right, it's the experience or the engagement that that particular driver or brand has with the customer that is riding in the back of the car, satisfying the need for the job that needed to be done. And when I started to shift my thinking around it's really this experience layer and this engagement layer of how easy is it, how friction, you could apply it to all kinds of industries now, you know. Whether it's meal delivery, or buying a book or buy, you know, software from someone like Salesforce or consulting or watching this show. It used to be you had to go and watch it live or you'd have to watch it on television, now we have very different ways and means in which you can be engaged. So that has been super exciting to me to see it live and in person as brands are really focusing on this importance of the way in which they engage with, connect with and inspire customers to do things with them as their brand of choice. >> So, as I said, Tiffani, I like the book and there is three or points that really want to draw out. I want to start with the first one though. >> Okay. >> Let's go back to this notion of engagement. >> Yes. >> You make the observation in the book and I also have some, a background, thinking about customer engagement, customer experience but you make a great point in the book that your brand is the promise that you're make to the marketplace. Customer experience is the customer side of the engagement. >> Right. >> It seems as though if there's a significant miss-match between those two, that's the first indication you've got a problem. If your brand promise and what is being experienced are not aligned, that says something, have I got that right? >> Absolutely and what's fascinating about that is many brands feel like they're totally aligned and then in mass, you know, research from all kinds of people whether it's McKenzie or Bain or Gartner or Forester or anybody else, you're seeing this disconnection where the brand thinks it's great and the customer's going, it's not that great. The gap between those two things, unfortunately, even with all the advancements with technology, I feel like it's getting wider, right? Because their still sort of, brands are still sort pushing out what they think is interesting and engaging and customers are going, it's kind of not so much. And so, this really a way and I really dug into it in Growth IQ of how brands can figure out, how do I get closer to that by starting with the customer and working their way back in. I mean, it's a long discussed topic of outside in versus inside out, it's nothing new there but now we have this advancements of technology that actually allow us to know what that outside in is telling us at scale, without having to throw people at the problem. >> Yeah, through data collection and other types of things. >> Absolutely. >> But it all starts with that impedance miss-match. >> Yes. >> And as you said, if businesses don't accept that they have a problem they're not going to change. But that is a measurable, actionable thing. >> Right. >> So, if nothing else, if nobody reads anything else out of the book, just that simple idea that it's not MPV, it's not, you know, other types of measures, your Net Promoter Score or other types of measures but it's, basically, is there that disconnect. So the second thing is is that you've observed how it can be made actionable. Now, you've come up with 10, a recipe, or let's call them 10 ingredients of different ways of thinking about what you might be able to do from a growth standpoint. Now, rather than going through all of them, let's just say that they're there but the thing that's interesting is you've come up with a general framework for how you can imagine putting those things together. You call it context combination sequence, what does that mean? >> It, I think it's, I, when I decided to embark on this journey of writing this book I said, you know, what do I feel has been missing, or what did I notice as a pattern as I was having conversations since I was traveling around and talking to customers. And it wasn't the decision that they make of how they were going to grow that was interesting, it was actually the fact that it was rarely in isolation. It was never a single answer to a very complex problem, it was a combination of a number of things. So, if you're going to launch a new product, like that's going to be your growth strategy, well, are you going to launch it yourself? Are you going to do it with partners? Are you going to launch it direct to consumer online or you going to go into retail? You have to then combine the fact that you want to launch a new product with other things to help you grow. Or if you you're going to say I want to reduce turn, it's not just, well, I'm going to lower a price because that's going to be a reason for people to stay, it's, well wait a second, are the platforms easy to use? Can people open a ticket easily? It's always in combination. >> Do I have visibility into whom I churn? >> And to whom I churn, right? But the first place people fail to start, let's to back to your original question of this gap between what customers expect and what businesses are doing is the context in the market has significantly shifted over the last decade. You could say, well obvious technology advancements but I think far more disruptive than technology is actually the customers themselves demanding more from brands. I want you to be better to the environment. I want you to be better socially. I want you to give me more value for what I'm spending. I want it as a service not as a product. I want it in a monthly bill not a one-time bill. I want to pay usage. Whatever they're saying, the customer has changed the context of the market. And I think that's one of the big triggers in this, so you start with context, what's going on, next is what are you going to combine those efforts with. And then the third thing and equally import is sequence. The order in which you do things actually has implications to the likelihood of success of whatever it is you're doing. If you're going to launch into a new market with a new product, and you don't have the infrastructure for distribution or selling or service in place before you launch the product, probably the wrong order. >> Right. >> Right and so if you need to set up the partnerships and the distribution and support and sales and marketing, support within region or translate things to language or do the things that you need to do to marketing materials or websites before you get there because if you launch, the first impression is gone if it's not a good experience for the customer. >> Yeah, you only have one time to make a first impression. >> You only have one time and it doesn't need to be perfect, but you cannot be just completely off the mark because getting them to come back is more expensive than it would of been had you just taken a pause, gotten it right and launched at the appropriate time. >> And that notion of context is also especially important because you identify something you call timing which is related to sequence in the fact that you have to be very honest about what you can and cannot effect. There are some things you may want to sequencing, you may want to fall the sequence. >> Right. >> But if the market isn't going to respond favorably, tell us a little bit about timing and how context shapes and resets prioritization as it changes as well. >> Yeah so, if you think of somebody like a Netflix, if Netflix had started with streaming and not with DVD mail, you know, in the United States at least, not everybody had bandwidth, it was too expensive, it was in very specific neighborhoods and as bandwidth started to make its way into the households and the cost started to decline, then they could say, well, wait a second, is this the best way to do it or could we potentially stream it and start doing OTT types of services? But they had to wait for the technology as well as the customer to catch up with what was possible. So, had they not done mail and started with streaming, maybe they couldn't of held on long enough. And so, mail was a great way to do, I'm going to capture these customers, I'm going to penetrate this base, get them to order more movies and do more things with me. Now I'm going to introduce streaming. Now I have this base of customers which now may want to transition to a new kind of delivery or experience that they want to have with us. And you might be surprised that they still have hundreds of thousands of mail customer including my mom, she still gets DVDs in the mail. And it's a huge profit engine for them, actually allows them to reinvest in the business to expand the streaming services other places in the world which may never get mail service, right. But in the beachhead of it and just let the customers churn out, never getting rid of it, not marketing it but not getting rid of it. So, had those timings been offered different, they may not have been as successful. So, it really has implications to think about what is the customer looking for, what is the temperature socially, what can technology help me deliver? Putting those things together and going, knowing what I know, I don't need it to be perfect but I'm willing to test it and fail and iterate and keep going as long as I keep that context of the market in mind and then the customer, you know, as sort of my true north of making sure that I'm aligning those things again, like we were talking about. >> So let me see if I can summarize that, so you got to get the context, which is-- >> Yes. >> What's really in the marketplace, customer, regulatory, competitor, all those other thing we think about. >> All those things. >> You think about the combination of recipes or combination of responses and then how you're going to sequence them out. Then that sequencing decision then goes back and says and what do I need to redefine about my understanding of context. >> That's right, that's right. >> So I got that right? >> You've got that right and I would tell you that-- >> So your avoiding boiling the ocean. >> Yeah, and that's what always, sort of, when I was trying to figure out what did I want to say in this book. I did not want it to be a boil of the ocean. I picked 10 paths to growth, none of which I think will be a surprise to anybody. It's a modernization on what Ansoff had done around the Ansoff four, there's that. There are things that now we have at our disposal which we didn't have at our disposal in 1957 when Ansoff came out. >> Yeah. >> I mean, so, you have to obviously introduce new things. So like, just using something like socially conscious enterprise was not something we were talking about 10 years ago. >> Right. >> But it's being used as a growth path now. And so, I wanted to try to give 10 very distinct growth paths so that people didn't feel overwhelmed by the hundreds of choices they could make. So if I could get it to something that was digestible and then say now, how do I put those things together. So I made natural associations between paths so that people would say, oh, if I'm going to do product and customer diversification, I might need to do partnerships. If I have a churn problem, I may need to optimize sales. Those two things fit together, right? If I'm going to, customer experience is at the foundation of everything. >> Right. >> Right, and so I tried to tell the story that people could say, oh, we're already on this path, should be stay on this path? Is it the right path? Should we be moving? Am I doing everything I could be doing to make this path be more effective? And that's what I was hoping to get out this is that I don't want people to think this is something completely flip the chessboard over and start from scratch. >> Right. >> I want you to pivot ever so slowly and make adjustments in real time so that you're not having to do, this is kind of an evolutionary versus revolutionary kind of transformation. >> Yeah, the strategies that seem to work today, or feature three things and kind of comes from Cluetrain Manifesto, agile, the empirical, they're based on data, they're optimistic, they identify what really can be done and their irritative, they take smaller steps when they do that. >> Yes. >> So, let me return back to kind of the notion of engagement, just for a second. >> Sure. >> One of the reasons why this book has so much prescriptive power is because there is a dramatic shift globally in market power. It used to be the sellers had the market power and therefore the information at your disposal that you used to make a decision largely came from the sellers and now, you're able to move into communities where buyers can come together and identify themselves in each other and use that source of information to help you make decisions. Very, very significant and profound shift and that's in many respects what's driving experience. Historically though, we've talked about sales and marketing alignment. (Tiffani laughing) About how we got to get the right message out, we got to enable sales in the right way. But customers spend most of their time with a brand in the form of a product or service which suggests that he whole notion of customer service and sustaining alignment between expectations and actuality in the customer service function becomes especially important. Have I got that right? >> You nailed it, I mean, I would say also you know, and I'm actually a practitioner before I was at Gartner, so I actually ran a division of Gateway computers, I ran sales and marketing for them. Before that I worked in web hosting company, we were the largest web hoster in the United States, we were actually four times the size of Rackspace. I was the beta client for ALOQUA, I was the beta client for Constant Contact. I was socially selling in 2000. Our shared property is web.com, if you watch golf. And so I was super early, so I'm actually a sales, I sort of say I'm a recovering seller, I bleed sales blood. (Peter laughing) And so when I was running both sales and marketing, I could argue with myself. But when I was just selling, you know, I understand this, you know, marketing giving us leads, sales not doing something with it. Then when I had customer service, you know, those three things together, I think today, is where companies really miss an opportunity. That just getting new customers in the door and it's so much more expensive to recruit new customers and to pay to get them versus just mining the gold you've already got. So, that is something that I'd say over the last two and a half years now that I'm here and I see it at scale that I will have conversations with CMOs and heads of sales and then the head of customer service is not in the room or it's just marketing and sales. So the same way marketing enables sales, they need to enable customer service. >> And, very importantly, the information that is being generated out of customer service-- >> Absolutely. >> Need to enable sales and marketing. >> Absolutely-- >> And in products. >> So I would tell you that in my opinion, the disconnection between what customers expect and businesses are doing actually is a manifestation of the unintentional consequence of the disconnection of teams because of the disconnection of metrics. Sales is very much, like how much did you sell? I mean, I'm over simplifying but how much did you sell. Marketing, how many leads did you, good or bad, how many leads? Customer service, how quickly did you get someone off the phone and how many calls did, tickets did you close today? Those three things pull those three groups in very different directions. So, something like a Net Promoter Score or churn or lifetime values, something can thread those three groups together in a metric so that people know that they're all in this together even though they play different roles. And so, I think the fact that people try to own customer experience worries me because I think the whole company has to be very focused on... >> It's a CEO job. >> But then it's a cultural shift, right? >> Absolutely. >> It's about culture, it's about this customer wants to have me help their problem but I have to get off the phone in two minutes because that's my quota and so do I get off the phone in two minutes or do I help my customer? >> Okay, let me make one quick comment and I'm going to ask you one last question. >> Yeah. >> And the quick comment I'll make is very prominent CEO of a very, very large computing company once said to me, I asked this person, 'cause I thought that they had won large because of marketing. And I said, so, tell me about he role of marketing within your company. And this person said to me, oh, marketing is what I put between engineering and sales so they don't kill each other. (Tiffani laughing) And I think that needs, obviously that orientation needs to change. But the last thing I wanted to talk about is one of the patterns you noted is disruption or disruptive-- >> Yes. >> I don't remember exactly what you called it but it boiled down, it could mean a lot of things, but you specifically focused on and you've already mentioned it, social good. >> Yep. >> As part of a strategy, give us a, you know 30 second, 44 second, why is social good becoming a viable strategy or viable pattern, one of the combinations that's working today? >> Well, I'd say, Salesforce was founded on the 1-1-1 model, which was very much about sort of this doing well by doing good, or doing good by doing good. But I would say this that even if you've watched television commercials over the last year, especially since Super Bowl last year, you'll see brands actually making statements about how they do well for the environment, how they're giving back, how they're hiring veterans, how they're doing things for... You know, Starbucks just announced they're going to- >> How they're willing to fly immigrant children home if they need to. >> Yeah, Starbucks is not doing a Starbucks in DC that will be signing so for hearing impaired. So you see people really making pivots and actually using that as I'm trying to connect with my constituency and my customer base in a new and different way. I love the fact that social consciousness is now getting into Unilever and getting into, you know the 1-1-1 model spread across 3,000 companies now. Or the Tom's model, one for one, buy a shoe, a shoe gets donated. You see it happening with a lot of start ups now where they're trying to start the company that way. Now, if you have a company that didn't start that way, there's not reason why you can't start to find a place where you can inject it going forward. But I'm super excited about that. >> Tiffani Bova, Global Growth Innovation Evangelist Salesforce, talking about the book Growth IQ. Again, great book. >> Thank you. >> Very prescriptive and I mean, I generally hate business books, lot of case studies. Thanks very much for being on theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me, peter, it's been a pleasure. >> Absolutely, so once again, thanks for participating in our CUBE Conversation and until the next one, we'll see you soon. (dramatic music)

>> Narrator: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. >> All right, welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. This is Dave Vellante with Dave Nicholson. Day 4 of coverage MWC 23. We've been talking all week about the disaggregation of the telco networks, how telcos need to increase revenue how they're not going to let the over the top providers do it again. They want to charge Netflix, right? And Netflix is punching back. There maybe are better ways to do revenue acceleration. We're going to talk to that topic with Dave Trigg who's the Global Vice President of Telecom systems business at Dell Technologies. And Ken Burns, who's a global telecom partner, sales lead. Guys, good to see you. >> Good to see you. Great to be here. >> Dave, you heard my, you're welcome. You heard my intro. It's got to be better ways to, for the telcos to make money. How can they accelerate revenue beyond taxing Netflix? >> Yeah, well, well first of all, sort of the promise of 5G, and a lot of people talk about 5G as the enterprise G. Right? So the promise of 5G is to really help drive revenue enterprise use cases. And so, it's sort of the promise of the next generation of technology, but it's not easy to figure out how we monetize that. And so we think Dell has a pretty significant role to play. It's a CEO conversation for every telco and how they accelerate. And so it's an area we're investing heavily into three different areas for telcos. One is the IT space. Dell's done that forever. 90% of the companies leaning in on that. The other places network, network's more about cost takeout. And the third area where we're investing in is working with what we call their line of businesses, but it's really their business units, right? How can we sit down with them and really understand what services do they take to market? Where do they go? So, we're making significant investments. So one way they can do it is working with Dell and and we're making big investments 'cause in most Geos we have a fairly significant sales force. We've brought in an industry leader to help us put it together. And we're getting very focused on this space and, you know, looking forward to talking more about it. >> So Ken, you know, the space inside and out, we just had at AT&T on... >> Dave Trigg: Yep. >> And they were saying we have to be hypersensitive because of our platinum brand to the use of personal information. >> Ken: Yeah. >> So we're not going to go there yet. We're not going to go directly monetize, but yet I'm thinking well, Netflix knows what I'm watching and they're making recommendations and they're, and and that's how they make money. And so the, the telcos are, are shy about doing that for right reasons, but they want to make better offers. They want to put, put forth better bundles. You know, they don't, they don't want to spend all their time trying to figure that out and not being able to change when they need to change. So, so what is the answer? If they're not going to go toward that direct monetization of data? >> Ken: Yeah. >> How do they get there? >> So I, I joined Dell in- at the end of June and brought on, as David said, to, to build and lead this what we call the line of business strategy, right? And ultimately what it is is tying together Dell technology solutions and the best of breed of what the telecoms bring to bear to solve the business outcomes of our joint customers. And there's a few jewels inside of Dell. One of it is that we have 35,000 sellers out there all touching enterprise business customers. And we have a really good understanding of what those customer needs are and you know what their outcomes needs to be. The other jewel is we have a really good understanding of how to solve those business outcomes. Dell is an open company. We work with thousands of integrators, and we have a really good insight in terms of how to solve those business outcomes, right? And so in my conversations with the telecom companies when you talk about, you know combining the best assets of Dell with their capabilities and we're all talking to the same customers, right? And if we're giving them the same story on these solutions solving business outcomes it's a beautiful thing. It's a time to market. >> What's an example of a, of a, of a situation where you'll partner with telcos that's going to drive revenue for, for both of you and value for the customer? >> Yeah, great question. So we've been laser focused on four key areas, cyber, well, let me start off with connected laptops, cyber, private mobility, and edge. Right? Now, the last two are a little bit squishy, but I'll I'll get to that in a bit, right? Because ultimately I feel like with this 5G market, we could actually make the market. And the way that we've been positioning this is almost, almost on a journey for IOT. When we talk about laptops, right? Dell is the, is the number one company in the world to sell business laptops. Well, if we start selling connected laptops the telcos are starting to say, well, you know what? If all of those laptops get connected to my network, that's a ton of 5G activations, right? We have the used cases on why having a connected workforce makes sense, right? So we're sharing that with the telcos to not simply sell a laptop, but to sell the company on why it makes sense to have that connected workforce. >> Dave Vellante: Why does it make sense? It could change the end customer. >> Ken: Yeah. So, you know, I'm probably not the best to answer that one right? But, but ultimately, you know Dell is selling millions and millions of laptops out there. And, and again, the Verizon's, the AT&T's, the T-mobile's, they're seeing the opportunity that, you know, connecting those laptops, give those the 5G activations right? But Dave, you know, the way that we've been positioning this is it's not simply a laptop could be really a Trojan horse into this IOT journey. Because ultimately, if you sell a thousand laptops to an enterprise company and you're connecting a thousand of their employees, you're connecting people, right? And we can give the analytics around that, what they're using it for, you know, making sure that the security, the bios, all of that is up to date. So now that you're connecting their people you could open up the conversation to why don't we we connect your place and, you know, allowing the telecom companies to come in and educate customers and the Dell sales force on why a private 5G mobility network makes sense to connecting places. That's a great opportunity. When you connect the place, the next part of that journey is connecting things in that place. Robotics, sensors, et cetera, right? And, and so really, so we're on the journey of people, places, things. >> So they got the cyber angle angle in there, Dave. That, that's clear benefit. If you, you know, if you got all these bespoke laptops and they're all at different levels you're going to get, you know, you're going to get hacked anyway. >> Ken: That's right. >> You're going to get hacked worse. >> Yeah. I'm curious, as you go to market, do you see significant differences? You don't have to name any names, but I imagine that there are behemoths that could be laggards because essentially they feel like they're the toll booth and all they have to do is collect, keep collecting the tolls. Whereas some of the smaller, more nimble, more agile entities that you might deal with might be more receptive to this message. That seems to be the sort of way the circle of life are. Are you seeing that? Are you seeing the big ones? Are you seeing the, you know, the aircraft carriers realizing that we got to turn into the wind guys and if we don't start turning into the wind now we're going to be in trouble. >> So this conference has been absolutely fantastic allowing us to speak with, you know, probably 30 plus telecom operators around this strategy, right? And all of the big guys, they've invested hundreds of billions of dollars in their 5G network and they haven't really seen the ROI. So when we're coming into them with a story about how Dell can help monetize their 5G network I got to tell you they're pretty excited >> Dave Nicholson: So they're receptive? >> Oh my God. They are very receptive >> So that's the big question, right? I mean is, who's, is anybody ever going to make any money off of 5G? And Ken, you were saying that private mobility and edge are a little fuzzy but I think from a strategy standpoint I mean that is a potential gold mine. >> Yeah, but it, for, for lot of the telcos and most telcos it's a pretty significant shift in mentality, right? Cause they are used to selling sim cards to some degree and how many sim cards are they selling and how many, what other used cases? And really to get to the point where they understand the use case, 'cause to get into the enterprise to really get into what can they do to help power a enterprise business more wholly. They've got to understand the use case. They got to understand the more complete solution. You know, Dell's been doing that for years. And that's where we can bring our Salesforce, our capabilities, our understanding of the customer. 'cause even your original question around AT&T and trying to understand the data, that's just really a how do you get better understanding of your customer, right? >> Right. Absolutely. >> And, and combined we're better together 'cause we bring a more complete picture of understanding our customers and then how can we help them understand what the edge is. Cause nobody's ever bought an Edge, right? They're buying an Edge to get a business outcome. You know, back in the day, nobody ever bought a data lake, right? Like, you know, they're buying an outcome. They want to use, use that data lake or they want to use the edge to deliver something. They want to use 5G. And 5G has very real capabilities. It's got intrinsic security, which, you know a lot of the wifi doesn't. It's got guaranteed on time, you know, for areas where you can't lose connectivity: autonomous vehicles, et cetera. So it's got very real capabilities that helps deliver that outcome. But you got to be able to translate that into the en- enterprise language to help them solve a problem. And that's where we think we need the help of the telcos. I think the telcos we can help them as well and, and really go drive that outcome. >> So Dell's bringing its go to market expertise and its technology. The telcos obviously have the the connectivity piece and what they do. There's no overlap in terms of the... >> Yeah. >> The, the equipment and the software that you're selling. I mean, they're going to, they're going to take your equipment and create new networks. Beautiful. And, and it's interesting you, like, you think about how Dell has transformed prior to EMC, Dell was, you know, PC maker with a subpar enterprise business, right? Kind of a wannabe enterprise business. Sorry Dell, it's the truth. And then EMC was largely, you know, a company sold storage boxes, but you owned VMware and then brought those two together. Now all of a sudden you had Dell powerhouse leader and Michael Dell, you had VMware incredibly strategic and important and it got EMC with amazing go to market. All of a sudden this Dell, Dell technologies became incredibly attractive to CIOs, C-level executives, board level. And you've come out of that transition VMware's now a separate company, right? And now, but now you have these relationships and you got the shops to be able to go into these edge locations at companies And actually go partner with the telcos. And you got a very compelling value proposition. >> Well, it's been interesting as in, in this show, again most telcos think of Dell as a server provider, you know? Important, but not overly strategic in their journey. But as we've started to invest in this business we've started to invest in things like automation. We've brought together things in our Infra Blocks and then we help them develop revenue. We're not only helping 'em take costs out of their network we're not helping 'em take risk out of deploying that network. We're helping them accelerate the deployment of that network. And then we're helping 'em drive revenue. We are having, you know, they're starting to see us in a new light. Not done yet, but, you know, you can start to see, one, how they're looking at Dell and two, and then how we can go to market. And you know, a big part of that is helping 'em drive and generate revenue. >> Yeah. Well, as, as a, as a former EMC person myself, >> Yeah? >> I will assert that that strategic DNA was injected into Dell by the acquisition of, of EMC. And I'm sticking... >> I won't say that. Okay I'll believe you on that. >> I'm sticking with the story. And it makes sense when you think about moving up market, that's the natural thing. What's, what's what's nearly impossible is to say, we sell semi-trucks but we want to get into the personal pickup truck market. That's that, that doesn't work. Going the other way works. >> Dave Trigg: Yeah. >> Now, now back to the conversation that you had with, with, with AT&T. I'm not buying this whole, no offense to AT&T, but I'm not buying this whole story that, you know, oh we're concerned about our branded customer data. That sounds like someone who's a little bit too comfortable with their existing revenue stream. If I'm out there, I want to be out partnering with folks who are truly aggressive about, about coming up with the next cool thing. You guys are talking about being connected in a laptop. Someone would say, well I got wifi. No, no, no. I'm thinking I want to sim in my laptop cause I don't want to screw around with wifi. Okay, fine. If I know I'm going to be somewhere with excellent wifi connectivity, great. But most of the time it's not excellent. >> That's right. >> So the idea that I could maybe hit F2 and have it switch over to my sim and know that anywhere that I've got coverage, I have high speed connections. Just the convenience of that. >> Ken: Absolutely. >> I'd pay extra for that as an end user consumer. >> Absolutely. >> And I pay for the service. >> Like I tell you, if it interests AT&T I think it's more not, they ask, they're comfortable. They don't know how to monetize that data. Now, of course, AT&T has a media >> Dave Nicholson: Business necessity is the mother of invention. If they don't see the necessity then they're not going to think about it. >> It's a mentality shift. Yes, but, but when you start talking about private mobility and edge, there's there's no concern about personal information there. You're going in with basically a business transformation. Hey, your, your business is, is not, not digital. It's not automated. Now we're going to automate that and digitize that. It's like the, the Dell booth with the beer guys. >> Right. >> You saw that, right? >> I mean that's, I mean that's a simple application. Yeah, a perfect example of how you network and use this technology. >> I mean, how many non-digital businesses are that that need to go digital? >> Dave Nicholson: Like, hundred percent of them. >> Everyone. >> Dave Nicholson: Pretty much. >> Yeah. And this, and this jewel that we have inside of Dell our global industries group, right, where we're investing really heavily in terms of what is the manufacturing industry looking for retail, finance, et cetera. So we have a CTO that came in, that it would be the CTO of manufacturing that gives us a really good opportunity to go to at AT&T or to Verizon or any telco out there, right? To, to say, these are the outcomes. There's Dell technology already in place. How do we connect it to your network? How do we leverage your assets, your manager professional services to provide a richer experience? So it's, there's, you said before Dave, there's really no overlap between Dell and, and our telecom partners. >> You guys making some serious investments here. I mean I, I've been, I was been critical over the years of, hey, you can't just take an X86 block, put a name on it that says edge something and throw it over the fence because that's what you were doing. >> Dave Trigg: And we would agree. >> Yeah. Right. But, of course, but that's all you had at the time. And so you put some... >> We may not have agreed then, but we would agree. >> You bought, brought some people in, you know, like Ken, who really know the business. You brought people into the technical side and you can really see it happening. It's not going to happen overnight. You know, I mean, you know if I were an investor in Dell, I'd be like, okay when are you going to start making money at this business? I'd be like, be patient. You know, it's going to take some time but look at the TAM. >> Yep. >> You know, you guys do a good, good TAM. Tennis is a pro at this stuff. >> We've been at, we've been at this two, three years and we're just now coming with some real material products. You've seen our server line really start to get more purpose-built, really start to get in there as we've started to put out some software that allows for quicker automation, quicker deployments. We have some telcos that are using it to deploy at 10,000 locations. They're literally turning up thousands of locations a week. And so yeah, we're starting to put out some real capability. Got a long way to go. A lot of exciting things on the roadmap. But to your point, it doesn't, you know the ship doesn't turn overnight, you know. >> It could be a really meaningful portion of Dell's business. I'm, I'm excited for the day that Tom Sweet starts reporting on it. Here's our telco business. Yeah. The telco business. But that's not going to happen overnight. But you know, Dell's pretty good at things like ROI. And so you guys do a lot of planning a lot of TAM analysis, a lot of technical analysis, bringing the ecosystem together. That's what this business needs. I, I just don't, it's, it feels unstoppable. You know, you're at this show everybody recognizes the need to open up. Some telcos are moving faster than others. The ones that move faster are going to disrupt. They're going to probably make some mistakes, you know but they're going to get there first. >> Well we've, we've seen the disruptors are making some mistakes and are kind of re- they're already at the phase where they're reevaluating, you know, their approach. Which is great. You know, you, you learn and adjust. You know, you run into a wall, you, you make a turn. And the interesting thing, one of the biggest learnings I've taken out of the show is talking to a bunch of the telcos that are a little bit more of the laggards. They're like, Nope, we, we don't believe in open. We don't think we can do it. We don't have the skillset. They're maybe in a geo that it's hard to find the skillset. As they've been talking to us, and we've been talking about, there's almost a glimmer of hope. They're not convinced yet, but they're like, well wait, maybe we can do this. Maybe open, you know, does give us choice. Maybe it can help us accelerate revenue. So it's been interesting to see a little bit of the, just a little bit, but a little bit of that shift. >> We all remember at 2010, 2011, you talked to banks and financial services companies about, the heck, the Cloud is happening, the Cloud's going to take over the world. We're never going to go into the Cloud. Now they're the biggest, you know Capital One's launching Cloud businesses, Western Union, I mean, they're all in the cloud, right? I mean, it's the same thing's going to happen here. Might, it might take a different pattern. Maybe it takes a little longer, but it's, it's it's a fate are completely >> I was in high school then, so I don't remember all that. >> Sorry, Dave. >> Wow, that was a low blow, like you know? >> But, but the, but the one thing that is for sure there's money to be made convincing people to get off of the backs of the dinosaurs they're riding. >> Dave Vellante: That's right. >> And also, the other thing that's a certainty is that it's not easy. And because it's not easy, there's opportunity there. So I know, I know it's, it, it, it, it, it all sounds great to talk about the the wonderful vision of the future, but I know how hard the the road is that you have to go down to get people, especially if you're comfortable with the revenue stream, if you're comfortable running the plumbing. If you're so comfortable that you can get up on stage and say, I want more money from you to pump your con- your content across my network. I love the Netflix retort, right Dave? >> Yeah, totally Dave. And, but the, the other thing is, telco's a great business. It's, they got monopolies that print money. So... >> Dave Nicholson: It's rational. It's rational. I understand. >> There's less of an incentive to move but what's going to be the incentive is guys like Dish Network coming in saying, we're going to, we're going to disrupt, we're going to build new apps. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> Well and it's, you know, revenue acceleration, the board level, the CEO level know that they have to, you know, do things different. But to your point, it's just hard, and there's so much gravity there. There's hundreds of years literally of gravity of how they've operated their business. To your point, a lot of them, you know, lot- most of 'em were regulated and most Geos around the world at one point, right? They were government owned or government regulated entities. It's, it's a big ship to turn and it's really hard. We're not claiming we can help them turn the ship overnight but we think we can help evolve them. We think we can go along with the journey and we do think we are better together. >> IT the network and the line of business. Love the strategy. Guys, thanks so much for coming in theCUBE. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> All right, for Dave, Nicholson, Dave Vellante here, John Furrier is in our Palo Alto studio banging out all the news, keep it right there. TheCUBE's coverage of MWC 23. We'll be right back.

(gentle music) >> Narrator: "TheCUBE's" live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Hello everybody, welcome back to day four of "theCUBE's" coverage of MWC '23. We're here live at the Fira in Barcelona. Wall-to-wall coverage, John Furrier is in our Palo Alto studio, banging out all the news. Really, the whole week we've been talking about the disaggregation of the telco network, the new opportunities in telco. We're really excited to have AT&T and Snowflake here. Dave Whittington is the AVP, at the Chief Data Office at AT&T. Roddy Tranum is the Assistant Vice President, for Channel Performance Data and Tools at AT&T. And Phil Kippen, the Global Head Of Industry-Telecom at Snowflake, Snowflake's new telecom business. Snowflake just announced earnings last night. Typical Scarpelli, they beat earnings, very conservative guidance, stocks down today, but we like Snowflake long term, they're on that path to 10 billion. Guys, welcome to "theCUBE." Thanks so much >> Phil: Thank you. >> for coming on. >> Dave and Roddy: Thanks Dave. >> Dave, let's start with you. The data culture inside of telco, We've had this, we've been talking all week about this monolithic system. Super reliable. You guys did a great job during the pandemic. Everything shifting to landlines. We didn't even notice, you guys didn't miss a beat. Saved us. But the data culture's changing inside telco. Explain that. >> Well, absolutely. So, first of all IoT and edge processing is bringing forth new and exciting opportunities all the time. So, we're bridging the world between a lot of the OSS stuff that we can do with edge processing. But bringing that back, and now we're talking about working, and I would say traditionally, we talk data warehouse. Data warehouse and big data are now becoming a single mesh, all right? And the use cases and the way you can use those, especially I'm taking that edge data and bringing it back over, now I'm running AI and ML models on it, and I'm pushing back to the edge, and I'm combining that with my relational data. So that mesh there is making all the difference. We're getting new use cases that we can do with that. And it's just, and the volume of data is immense. >> Now, I love ChatGPT, but I'm hoping your data models are more accurate than ChatGPT. I never know. Sometimes it's really good, sometimes it's really bad. But enterprise, you got to be clean with your AI, don't you? >> Not only you have to be clean, you have to monitor it for bias and be ethical about it. We're really good about that. First of all with AT&T, our brand is Platinum. We take care of that. So, we may not be as cutting-edge risk takers as others, but when we go to market with an AI or an ML or a product, it's solid. >> Well hey, as telcos go, you guys are leaning into the Cloud. So I mean, that's a good starting point. Roddy, explain your role. You got an interesting title, Channel Performance Data and Tools, what's that all about? >> So literally anything with our consumer, retail, concenters' channels, all of our channels, from a data perspective and metrics perspective, what it takes to run reps, agents, all the way to leadership levels, scorecards, how you rank in the business, how you're driving the business, from sales, service, customer experience, all that data infrastructure with our great partners on the CDO side, as well as Snowflake, that comes from my team. >> And that's traditionally been done in a, I don't mean the pejorative, but we're talking about legacy, monolithic, sort of data warehouse technologies. >> Absolutely. >> We have a love-hate relationship with them. It's what we had. It's what we used, right? And now that's evolving. And you guys are leaning into the Cloud. >> Dramatic evolution. And what Snowflake's enabled for us is impeccable. We've talked about having, people have dreamed of one data warehouse for the longest time and everything in one system. Really, this is the only way that becomes a reality. The more you get in Snowflake, we can have golden source data, and instead of duplicating that 50 times across AT&T, it's in one place, we just share it, everybody leverages it, and now it's not duplicated, and the process efficiency is just incredible. >> But it really hinges on that separation of storage and compute. And we talk about the monolithic warehouse, and one of the nightmares I've lived with, is having a monolithic warehouse. And let's just go with some of my primary, traditional customers, sales, marketing and finance. They are leveraging BSS OSS data all the time. For me to coordinate a deployment, I have to make sure that each one of these units can take an outage, if it's going to be a long deployment. With the separation of storage, compute, they own their own compute cluster. So I can move faster for these people. 'Cause if finance, I can implement his code without impacting finance or marketing. This brings in CI/CD to more reality. It brings us faster to market with more features. So if he wants to implement a new comp plan for the field reps, or we're reacting to the marketplace, where one of our competitors has done something, we can do that in days, versus waiting weeks or months. >> And we've reported on this a lot. This is the brilliance of Snowflake's founders, that whole separation >> Yep. >> from compute and data. I like Dave, that you're starting with sort of the business flexibility, 'cause there's a cost element of this too. You can dial down, you can turn off compute, and then of course the whole world said, "Hey, that's a good idea." And a VC started throwing money at Amazon, but Redshift said, "Oh, we can do that too, sort of, can't turn off the compute." But I want to ask you Phil, so, >> Sure. >> it looks from my vantage point, like you're taking your Data Cloud message which was originally separate compute from storage simplification, now data sharing, automated governance, security, ultimately the marketplace. >> Phil: Right. >> Taking that same model, break down the silos into telecom, right? It's that same, >> Mm-hmm. >> sorry to use the term playbook, Frank Slootman tells me he doesn't use playbooks, but he's not a pattern matcher, but he's a situational CEO, he says. But the situation in telco calls for that type of strategy. So explain what you guys are doing in telco. >> I think there's, so, what we're launching, we launched last week, and it really was three components, right? So we had our platform as you mentioned, >> Dave: Mm-hmm. >> and that platform is being utilized by a number of different companies today. We also are adding, for telecom very specifically, we're adding capabilities in marketplace, so that service providers can not only use some of the data and apps that are in marketplace, but as well service providers can go and sell applications or sell data that they had built. And then as well, we're adding our ecosystem, it's telecom-specific. So, we're bringing partners in, technology partners, and consulting and services partners, that are very much focused on telecoms and what they do internally, but also helping them monetize new services. >> Okay, so it's not just sort of generic Snowflake into telco? You have specific value there. >> We're purposing the platform specifically for- >> Are you a telco guy? >> I am. You are, okay. >> Total telco guy absolutely. >> So there you go. You see that Snowflake is actually an interesting organizational structure, 'cause you're going after verticals, which is kind of rare for a company of your sort of inventory, I'll say, >> Absolutely. >> I don't mean that as a negative. (Dave laughs) So Dave, take us through the data journey at AT&T. It's a long history. You don't have to go back to the 1800s, but- (Dave laughs) >> Thank you for pointing out, we're a 149-year-old company. So, Jesse James was one of the original customers, (Dave laughs) and we have no longer got his data. So, I'll go back. I've been 17 years singular AT&T, and I've watched it through the whole journey of, where the monolithics were growing, when the consolidation of small, wireless carriers, and we went through that boom. And then we've gone through mergers and acquisitions. But, Hadoop came out, and it was going to solve all world hunger. And we had all the aspects of, we're going to monetize and do AI and ML, and some of the things we learned with Hadoop was, we had this monolithic warehouse, we had this file-based-structured Hadoop, but we really didn't know how to bring this all together. And we were bringing items over to the relational, and we were taking the relational and bringing it over to the warehouse, and trying to, and it was a struggle. Let's just go there. And I don't think we were the only company to struggle with that, but we learned a lot. And so now as tech is finally emerging, with the cloud, companies like Snowflake, and others that can handle that, where we can create, we were discussing earlier, but it becomes more of a conducive mesh that's interoperable. So now we're able to simplify that environment. And the cloud is a big thing on that. 'Cause you could not do this on-prem with on-prem technologies. It would be just too cost prohibitive, and too heavy of lifting, going back and forth, and managing the data. The simplicity the cloud brings with a smaller set of tools, and I'll say in the data space specifically, really allows us, maybe not a single instance of data for all use cases, but a greatly reduced ecosystem. And when you simplify your ecosystem, you simplify speed to market and data management. >> So I'm going to ask you, I know it's kind of internal organizational plumbing, but it'll inform my next question. So, Dave, you're with the Chief Data Office, and Roddy, you're kind of, you all serve in the business, but you're really serving the, you're closer to those guys, they're banging on your door for- >> Absolutely. I try to keep the 130,000 users who may or may not have issues sometimes with our data and metrics, away from Dave. And he just gets a call from me. >> And he only calls when he has a problem. He's never wished me happy birthday. (Dave and Phil laugh) >> So the reason I asked that is because, you describe Dave, some of the Hadoop days, and again love-hate with that, but we had hyper-specialized roles. We still do. You've got data engineers, data scientists, data analysts, and you've got this sort of this pipeline, and it had to be this sequential pipeline. I know Snowflake and others have come to simplify that. My question to you is, how is that those roles, how are those roles changing? How is data getting closer to the business? Everybody talks about democratizing business. Are you doing that? What's a real use example? >> From our perspective, those roles, a lot of those roles on my team for years, because we're all about efficiency, >> Dave: Mm-hmm. >> we cut across those areas, and always have cut across those areas. So now we're into a space where things have been simplified, data processes and copying, we've gone from 40 data processes down to five steps now. We've gone from five steps to one step. We've gone from days, now take hours, hours to minutes, minutes to seconds. Literally we're seeing that time in and time out with Snowflake. So these resources that have spent all their time on data engineering and moving data around, are now freed up more on what they have skills for and always have, the data analytics area of the business, and driving the business forward, and new metrics and new analysis. That's some of the great operational value that we've seen here. As this simplification happens, it frees up brain power. >> So, you're pumping data from the OSS, the BSS, the OKRs everywhere >> Everywhere. >> into Snowflake? >> Scheduling systems, you name it. If you can think of what drives our retail and centers and online, all that data, scheduling system, chat data, call center data, call detail data, all of that enters into this common infrastructure to manage the business on a day in and day out basis. >> How are the roles and the skill sets changing? 'Cause you're doing a lot less ETL, you're doing a lot less moving of data around. There were guys that were probably really good at that. I used to joke in the, when I was in the storage world, like if your job is bandaging lungs, you need to look for a new job, right? So, and they did and people move on. So, are you able to sort of redeploy those assets, and those people, those human resources? >> These folks are highly skilled. And we were talking about earlier, SQL hasn't gone away. Relational databases are not going away. And that's one thing that's made this migration excellent, they're just transitioning their skills. Experts in legacy systems are now rapidly becoming experts on the Snowflake side. And it has not been that hard a transition. There are certainly nuances, things that don't operate as well in the cloud environment that we have to learn and optimize. But we're making that transition. >> Dave: So just, >> Please. >> within the Chief Data Office we have a couple of missions, and Roddy is a great partner and an example of how it works. We try to bring the data for democratization, so that we have one interface, now hopefully know we just have a logical connection back to these Snowflake instances that we connect. But we're providing that governance and cleansing, and if there's a business rule at the enterprise level, we provide it. But the goal at CDO is to make sure that business units like Roddy or marketing or finance, that they can come to a platform that's reliable, robust, and self-service. I don't want to be in his way. So I feel like I'm providing a sub-level of platform, that he can come to and anybody can come to, and utilize, that they're not having to go back and undo what's in Salesforce, or ServiceNow, or in our billers. So, I'm sort of that layer. And then making sure that that ecosystem is robust enough for him to use. >> And that self-service infrastructure is predominantly through the Azure Cloud, correct? >> Dave: Absolutely. >> And you work on other clouds, but it's predominantly through Azure? >> We're predominantly in Azure, yeah. >> Dave: That's the first-party citizen? >> Yeah. >> Okay, I like to think in terms sometimes of data products, and I know you've mentioned upfront, you're Gold standard or Platinum standard, you're very careful about personal information. >> Dave: Yeah. >> So you're not trying to sell, I'm an AT&T customer, you're not trying to sell my data, and make money off of my data. So the value prop and the business case for Snowflake is it's simpler. You do things faster, you're in the cloud, lower cost, et cetera. But I presume you're also in the business, AT&T, of making offers and creating packages for customers. I look at those as data products, 'cause it's not a, I mean, yeah, there's a physical phone, but there's data products behind it. So- >> It ultimately is, but not everybody always sees it that way. Data reporting often can be an afterthought. And we're making it more on the forefront now. >> Yeah, so I like to think in terms of data products, I mean even if the financial services business, it's a data business. So, if we can think about that sort of metaphor, do you see yourselves as data product builders? Do you have that, do you think about building products in that regard? >> Within the Chief Data Office, we have a data product team, >> Mm-hmm. >> and by the way, I wouldn't be disingenuous if I said, oh, we're very mature in this, but no, it's where we're going, and it's somewhat of a journey, but I've got a peer, and their whole job is to go from, especially as we migrate from cloud, if Roddy or some other group was using tables three, four and five and joining them together, it's like, "Well look, this is an offer for data product, so let's combine these and put it up in the cloud, and here's the offer data set product, or here's the opportunity data product," and it's a journey. We're on the way, but we have dedicated staff and time to do this. >> I think one of the hardest parts about that is the organizational aspects of it. Like who owns the data now, right? It used to be owned by the techies, and increasingly the business lines want to have access, you're providing self-service. So there's a discussion about, "Okay, what is a data product? Who's responsible for that data product? Is it in my P&L or your P&L? Somebody's got to sign up for that number." So, it sounds like those discussions are taking place. >> They are. And, we feel like we're more the, and CDO at least, we feel more, we're like the guardians, and the shepherds, but not the owners. I mean, we have a role in it all, but he owns his metrics. >> Yeah, and even from our perspective, we see ourselves as an enabler of making whatever AT&T wants to make happen in terms of the key products and officers' trade-in offers, trade-in programs, all that requires this data infrastructure, and managing reps and agents, and what they do from a channel performance perspective. We still ourselves see ourselves as key enablers of that. And we've got to be flexible, and respond quickly to the business. >> I always had empathy for the data engineer, and he or she had to service all these different lines of business with no business context. >> Yeah. >> Like the business knows good data from bad data, and then they just pound that poor individual, and they're like, "Okay, I'm doing my best. It's just ones and zeros to me." So, it sounds like that's, you're on that path. >> Yeah absolutely, and I think, we do have refined, getting more and more refined owners of, since Snowflake enables these golden source data, everybody sees me and my organization, channel performance data, go to Roddy's team, we have a great team, and we go to Dave in terms of making it all happen from a data infrastructure perspective. So we, do have a lot more refined, "This is where you go for the golden source, this is where it is, this is who owns it. If you want to launch this product and services, and you want to manage reps with it, that's the place you-" >> It's a strong story. So Chief Data Office doesn't own the data per se, but it's your responsibility to provide the self-service infrastructure, and make sure it's governed properly, and in as automated way as possible. >> Well, yeah, absolutely. And let me tell you more, everybody talks about single version of the truth, one instance of the data, but there's context to that, that we are taking, trying to take advantage of that as we do data products is, what's the use case here? So we may have an entity of Roddy as a prospective customer, and we may have a entity of Roddy as a customer, high-value customer over here, which may have a different set of mix of data and all, but as a data product, we can then create those for those specific use cases. Still point to the same data, but build it in different constructs. One for marketing, one for sales, one for finance. By the way, that's where your data engineers are struggling. >> Yeah, yeah, of course. So how do I serve all these folks, and really have the context-common story in telco, >> Absolutely. >> or are these guys ahead of the curve a little bit? Or where would you put them? >> I think they're definitely moving a lot faster than the industry is generally. I think the enabling technologies, like for instance, having that single copy of data that everybody sees, a single pane of glass, right, that's definitely something that everybody wants to get to. Not many people are there. I think, what AT&T's doing, is most definitely a little bit further ahead than the industry generally. And I think the successes that are coming out of that, and the learning experiences are starting to generate momentum within AT&T. So I think, it's not just about the product, and having a product now that gives you a single copy of data. It's about the experiences, right? And now, how the teams are getting trained, domains like network engineering for instance. They typically haven't been a part of data discussions, because they've got a lot of data, but they're focused on the infrastructure. >> Mm. >> So, by going ahead and deploying this platform, for platform's purpose, right, and the business value, that's one thing, but also to start bringing, getting that experience, and bringing new experience in to help other groups that traditionally hadn't been data-centric, that's also a huge step ahead, right? So you need to enable those groups. >> A big complaint of course we hear at MWC from carriers is, "The over-the-top guys are killing us. They're riding on our networks, et cetera, et cetera. They have all the data, they have all the client relationships." Do you see your client relationships changing as a result of sort of your data culture evolving? >> Yes, I'm not sure I can- >> It's a loaded question, I know. >> Yeah, and then I, so, we want to start embedding as much into our network on the proprietary value that we have, so we can start getting into that OTT play, us as any other carrier, we have distinct advantages of what we can do at the edge, and we just need to start exploiting those. But you know, 'cause whether it's location or whatnot, so we got to eat into that. Historically, the network is where we make our money in, and we stack the services on top of it. It used to be *69. >> Dave: Yeah. >> If anybody remembers that. >> Dave: Yeah, of course. (Dave laughs) >> But you know, it was stacked on top of our network. Then we stack another product on top of it. It'll be in the edge where we start providing distinct values to other partners as we- >> I mean, it's a great business that you're in. I mean, if they're really good at connectivity. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And so, it sounds like it's still to be determined >> Dave: Yeah. >> where you can go with this. You have to be super careful with private and for personal information. >> Dave: Yep. >> Yeah, but the opportunities are enormous. >> There's a lot. >> Yeah, particularly at the edge, looking at, private networks are just an amazing opportunity. Factories and name it, hospital, remote hospitals, remote locations. I mean- >> Dave: Connected cars. >> Connected cars are really interesting, right? I mean, if you start communicating car to car, and actually drive that, (Dave laughs) I mean that's, now we're getting to visit Xen Fault Tolerance people. This is it. >> Dave: That's not, let's hold the traffic. >> Doesn't scare me as much as we actually learn. (all laugh) >> So how's the show been for you guys? >> Dave: Awesome. >> What're your big takeaways from- >> Tremendous experience. I mean, someone who doesn't go outside the United States much, I'm a homebody. The whole experience, the whole trip, city, Mobile World Congress, the technologies that are out here, it's been a blast. >> Anything, top two things you learned, advice you'd give to others, your colleagues out in general? >> In general, we talked a lot about technologies today, and we talked a lot about data, but I'm going to tell you what, the accelerator that you cannot change, is the relationship that we have. So when the tech and the business can work together toward a common goal, and it's a partnership, you get things done. So, I don't know how many CDOs or CIOs or CEOs are out there, but this connection is what accelerates and makes it work. >> And that is our audience Dave. I mean, it's all about that alignment. So guys, I really appreciate you coming in and sharing your story in "theCUBE." Great stuff. >> Thank you. >> Thanks a lot. >> All right, thanks everybody. Thank you for watching. I'll be right back with Dave Nicholson. Day four SiliconANGLE's coverage of MWC '23. You're watching "theCUBE." (gentle music)

(soft electronic music) >> Hey everyone, welcome to this CUBE conversation as part of the AWS Startup Showcase, season three, episode one, featuring Astronomer. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. I'm in the CUBE's Palo Alto Studios, and today excited to be joined by a couple of guests, a couple of co-founders from Astronomer. Viraj Parekh is with us, as is Paola Peraza-Calderon. Thanks guys so much for joining us. Excited to dig into Astronomer. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> Yeah, and we're going to be talking about the role of data orchestration. Paola, let's go ahead and start with you. Give the audience that understanding, that context about Astronomer and what it is that you guys do. >> Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. So, Astronomer is a, you know, we're a technology and software company for modern data orchestration, as you said, and we're the driving force behind Apache Airflow. The Open Source Workflow Management tool that's since been adopted by thousands and thousands of users, and we'll dig into this a little bit more. But, by data orchestration, we mean data pipeline, so generally speaking, getting data from one place to another, transforming it, running it on a schedule, and overall just building a central system that tangibly connects your entire ecosystem of data services, right. So what, that's Redshift, Snowflake, DVT, et cetera. And so tangibly, we build, we at Astronomer here build products powered by Apache Airflow for data teams and for data practitioners, so that they don't have to. So, we sell to data engineers, data scientists, data admins, and we really spend our time doing three things. So, the first is that we build Astro, our flagship cloud service that we'll talk more on. But here, we're really building experiences that make it easier for data practitioners to author, run, and scale their data pipeline footprint on the cloud. And then, we also contribute to Apache Airflow as an open source project and community. So, we cultivate the community of humans, and we also put out open source developer tools that actually make it easier for individual data practitioners to be productive in their day-to-day jobs, whether or not they actually use our product and and pay us money or not. And then of course, we also have professional services and education and all of these things around our commercial products that enable folks to use our products and use Airflow as effectively as possible. So yeah, super, super happy with everything we've done and hopefully that gives you an idea of where we're starting. >> Awesome, so when you're talking with those, Paola, those data engineers, those data scientists, how do you define data orchestration and what does it mean to them? >> Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. So, you know, if you Google data orchestration you're going to get something about an automated process for organizing silo data and making it accessible for processing and analysis. But, to your question, what does that actually mean, you know? So, if you look at it from a customer's perspective, we can share a little bit about how we at Astronomer actually do data orchestration ourselves and the problems that it solves for us. So, as many other companies out in the world do, we at Astronomer need to monitor how our own customers use our products, right? And so, we have a weekly meeting, for example, that goes through a dashboard and a dashboarding tool called Sigma where we see the number of monthly customers and how they're engaging with our product. But, to actually do that, you know, we have to use data from our application database, for example, that has behavioral data on what they're actually doing in our product. We also have data from third party API tools, like Salesforce and HubSpot, and other ways in which our customer, we actually engage with our customers and their behavior. And so, our data team internally at Astronomer uses a bunch of tools to transform and use that data, right? So, we use FiveTran, for example, to ingest. We use Snowflake as our data warehouse. We use other tools for data transformations. And even, if we at Astronomer don't do this, you can imagine a data team also using tools like, Monte Carlo for data quality, or Hightouch for Reverse ETL, or things like that. And, I think the point here is that data teams, you know, that are building data-driven organizations have a plethora of tooling to both ingest the right data and come up with the right interfaces to transform and actually, interact with that data. And so, that movement and sort of synchronization of data across your ecosystem is exactly what data orchestration is responsible for. Historically, I think, and Raj will talk more about this, historically, schedulers like KRON and Oozie or Control-M have taken a role here, but we think that Apache Airflow has sort of risen over the past few years as the defacto industry standard for writing data pipelines that do tasks, that do data jobs that interact with that ecosystem of tools in your organization. And so, beyond that sort of data pipeline unit, I think where we see it is that data acquisition is not only writing those data pipelines that move your data, but it's also all the things around it, right, so, CI/CD tool and Secrets Management, et cetera. So, a long-winded answer here, but I think that's how we talk about it here at Astronomer and how we're building our products. >> Excellent. Great context, Paola. Thank you. Viraj, let's bring you into the conversation. Every company these days has to be a data company, right? They've got to be a software company- >> Mm-hmm. >> whether it's my bank or my grocery store. So, how are companies actually doing data orchestration today, Viraj? >> Yeah, it's a great question. So, I think one thing to think about is like, on one hand, you know, data orchestration is kind of a new category that we're helping define, but on the other hand, it's something that companies have been doing forever, right? You need to get data moving to use it, you know. You've got it all in place, aggregate it, cleaning it, et cetera. So, when you look at what companies out there are doing, right. Sometimes, if you're a more kind of born in the cloud company, as we say, you'll adopt all these cloud native tooling things your cloud provider gives you. If you're a bank or another sort of institution like that, you know, you're probably juggling an even wider variety of tools. You're thinking about a cloud migration. You might have things like Kron running in one place, Uzi running somewhere else, Informatics running somewhere else, while you're also trying to move all your workloads to the cloud. So, there's quite a large spectrum of what the current state is for companies. And then, kind of like Paola was saying, Apache Airflow started in 2014, and it was actually started by Airbnb, and they put out this blog post that was like, "Hey here's how we use Apache Airflow to orchestrate our data across all their sources." And really since then, right, it's almost been a decade since then, Airflow emerged as the open source standard, and there's companies of all sorts using it. And, it's really used to tie all these tools together, especially as that number of tools increases, companies move to hybrid cloud, hybrid multi-cloud strategies, and so on and so forth. But you know, what we found is that if you go to any company, especially a larger one and you say like, "Hey, how are you doing data orchestration?" They'll probably say something like, "Well, I have five data teams, so I have eight different ways I do data orchestration." Right. This idea of data orchestration's been there but the right way to do it, kind of all the abstractions you need, the way your teams need to work together, and so on and so forth, hasn't really emerged just yet, right? It's such a quick moving space that companies have to combine what they were doing before with what their new business initiatives are today. So, you know, what we really believe here at Astronomer is Airflow is the core of how you solve data orchestration for any sort of use case, but it's not everything. You know, it needs a little more. And, that's really where our commercial product, Astro comes in, where we've built, not only the most tried and tested airflow experience out there. We do employ a majority of the Airflow Core Committers, right? So, we're kind of really deep in the project. We've also built the right things around developer tooling, observability, and reliability for customers to really rely on Astro as the heart of the way they do data orchestration, and kind of think of it as the foundational layer that helps tie together all the different tools, practices and teams large companies have to do today. >> That foundational layer is absolutely critical. You've both mentioned open source software. Paola, I want to go back to you, and just give the audience an understanding of how open source really plays into Astronomer's mission as a company, and into the technologies like Astro. >> Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we, so we at Astronomers started using Airflow and actually building our products because Airflow is open source and we were our own customers at the beginning of our company journey. And, I think the open source community is at the core of everything we do. You know, without that open source community and culture, I think, you know, we have less of a business, and so, we're super invested in continuing to cultivate and grow that. And, I think there's a couple sort of concrete ways in which we do this that personally make me really excited to do my own job. You know, for one, we do things like we organize meetups and we sponsor the Airflow Summit and there's these sort of baseline community efforts that I think are really important and that reminds you, hey, there just humans trying to do their jobs and learn and use both our technology and things that are out there and contribute to it. So, making it easier to contribute to Airflow, for example, is another one of our efforts. As Viraj mentioned, we also employ, you know, engineers internally who are on our team whose full-time job is to make the open source project better. Again, regardless of whether or not you're a customer of ours or not, we want to make sure that we continue to cultivate the Airflow project in and of itself. And, we're also building developer tooling that might not be a part of the Apache Open Source project, but is still open source. So, we have repositories in our own sort of GitHub organization, for example, with tools that individual data practitioners, again customers are not, can use to make them be more productive in their day-to-day jobs with Airflow writing Dags for the most common use cases out there. The last thing I'll say is how important I think we've found it to build sort of educational resources and documentation and best practices. Airflow can be complex. It's been around for a long time. There's a lot of really, really rich feature sets. And so, how do we enable folks to actually use those? And that comes in, you know, things like webinars, and best practices, and courses and curriculum that are free and accessible and open to the community are just some of the ways in which I think we're continuing to invest in that open source community over the next year and beyond. >> That's awesome. It sounds like open source is really core, not only to the mission, but really to the heart of the organization. Viraj, I want to go back to you and really try to understand how does Astronomer fit into the wider modern data stack and ecosystem? Like what does that look like for customers? >> Yeah, yeah. So, both in the open source and with our commercial customers, right? Folks everywhere are trying to tie together a huge variety of tools in order to start making sense of their data. And you know, I kind of think of it almost like as like a pyramid, right? At the base level, you need things like data reliability, data, sorry, data freshness, data availability, and so on and so forth, right? You just need your data to be there. (coughs) I'm sorry. You just need your data to be there, and you need to make it predictable when it's going to be there. You need to make sure it's kind of correct at the highest level, some quality checks, and so on and so forth. And oftentimes, that kind of takes the case of ELT or ETL use cases, right? Taking data from somewhere and moving it somewhere else, usually into some sort of analytics destination. And, that's really what businesses can do to just power the core parts of getting insights into how their business is going, right? How much revenue did I had? What's in my pipeline, salesforce, and so on and so forth. Once that kind of base foundation is there and people can get the data they need, how they need it, it really opens up a lot for what customers can do. You know, I think one of the trendier things out there right now is MLOps, and how do companies actually put machine learning into production? Well, when you think about it you kind of have to squint at it, right? Like, machine learning pipelines are really just any other data pipeline. They just have a certain set of needs that might not not be applicable to ELT pipelines. And, when you kind of have a common layer to tie together all the ways data can move through your organization, that's really what we're trying to make it so companies can do. And, that happens in financial services where, you know, we have some customers who take app data coming from their mobile apps, and actually run it through their fraud detection services to make sure that all the activity is not fraudulent. We have customers that will run sports betting models on our platform where they'll take data from a bunch of public APIs around different sporting events that are happening, transform all of that in a way their data scientist can build models with it, and then actually bet on sports based on that output. You know, one of my favorite use cases I like to talk about that we saw in the open source is we had there was one company whose their business was to deliver blood transfusions via drone into remote parts of the world. And, it was really cool because they took all this data from all sorts of places, right? Kind of orchestrated all the aggregation and cleaning and analysis that happened had to happen via airflow and the end product would be a drone being shot out into a real remote part of the world to actually give somebody blood who needed it there. Because it turns out for certain parts of the world, the easiest way to deliver blood to them is via drone and not via some other, some other thing. So, these kind of, all the things people do with the modern data stack is absolutely incredible, right? Like you were saying, every company's trying to be a data-driven company. What really energizes me is knowing that like, for all those best, super great tools out there that power a business, we get to be the connective tissue, or the, almost like the electricity that kind of ropes them all together and makes so people can actually do what they need to do. >> Right. Phenomenal use cases that you just described, Raj. I mean, just the variety alone of what you guys are able to do and impact is so cool. So Paola, when you're with those data engineers, those data scientists, and customer conversations, what's your pitch? Why use Astro? >> Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. And honestly, to piggyback off of Viraj, there's so many. I think what keeps me so energized is how mission critical both our product and data orchestration is, and those use cases really are incredible and we work with customers of all shapes and sizes. But, to answer your question, right, so why use Astra? Why use our commercial products? There's so many people using open source, why pay for something more than that? So, you know, the baseline for our business really is that Airflow has grown exponentially over the last five years, and like we said has become an industry standard that we're confident there's a huge opportunity for us as a company and as a team. But, we also strongly believe that being great at running Airflow, you know, doesn't make you a successful company at what you do. What makes you a successful company at what you do is building great products and solving problems and solving pin points of your own customers, right? And, that differentiating value isn't being amazing at running Airflow. That should be our job. And so, we want to abstract those customers from meaning to do things like manage Kubernetes infrastructure that you need to run Airflow, and then hiring someone full-time to go do that. Which can be hard, but again doesn't add differentiating value to your team, or to your product, or to your customers. So, folks to get away from managing that infrastructure sort of a base, a base layer. Folks who are looking for differentiating features that make their team more productive and allows them to spend less time tweaking Airflow configurations and more time working with the data that they're getting from their business. For help, getting, staying up with Airflow releases. There's a ton of, we've actually been pretty quick to come out with new Airflow features and releases, and actually just keeping up with that feature set and working strategically with a partner to help you make the most out of those feature sets is a key part of it. And, really it's, especially if you're an organization who currently is committed to using Airflow, you likely have a lot of Airflow environments across your organization. And, being able to see those Airflow environments in a single place and being able to enable your data practitioners to create Airflow environments with a click of a button, and then use, for example, our command line to develop your Airflow Dags locally and push them up to our product, and use all of the sort of testing and monitoring and observability that we have on top of our product is such a key. It sounds so simple, especially if you use Airflow, but really those things are, you know, baseline value props that we have for the customers that continue to be excited to work with us. And of course, I think we can go beyond that and there's, we have ambitions to add whole, a whole bunch of features and expand into different types of personas. >> Right? >> But really our main value prop is for companies who are committed to Airflow and want to abstract themselves and make use of some of the differentiating features that we now have at Astronomer. >> Got it. Awesome. >> Thank you. One thing, one thing I'll add to that, Paola, and I think you did a good job of saying is because every company's trying to be a data company, companies are at different parts of their journey along that, right? And we want to meet customers where they are, and take them through it to where they want to go. So, on one end you have folks who are like, "Hey, we're just building a data team here. We have a new initiative. We heard about Airflow. How do you help us out?" On the farther end, you know, we have some customers that have been using Airflow for five plus years and they're like, "Hey, this is awesome. We have 10 more teams we want to bring on. How can you help with this? How can we do more stuff in the open source with you? How can we tell our story together?" And, it's all about kind of taking this vast community of data users everywhere, seeing where they're at, and saying like, "Hey, Astro and Airflow can take you to the next place that you want to go." >> Which is incredibly- >> Mm-hmm. >> and you bring up a great point, Viraj, that every company is somewhere in a different place on that journey. And it's, and it's complex. But it sounds to me like a lot of what you're doing is really stripping away a lot of the complexity, really enabling folks to use their data as quickly as possible, so that it's relevant and they can serve up, you know, the right products and services to whoever wants what. Really incredibly important. We're almost out of time, but I'd love to get both of your perspectives on what's next for Astronomer. You give us a a great overview of what the company's doing, the value in it for customers. Paola, from your lens as one of the co-founders, what's next? >> Yeah, I mean, I think we'll continue to, I think cultivate in that open source community. I think we'll continue to build products that are open sourced as part of our ecosystem. I also think that we'll continue to build products that actually make Airflow, and getting started with Airflow, more accessible. So, sort of lowering that barrier to entry to our products, whether that's price wise or infrastructure requirement wise. I think making it easier for folks to get started and get their hands on our product is super important for us this year. And really it's about, I think, you know, for us, it's really about focused execution this year and all of the sort of core principles that we've been talking about. And continuing to invest in all of the things around our product that again, enable teams to use Airflow more effectively and efficiently. >> And that efficiency piece is, everybody needs that. Last question, Viraj, for you. What do you see in terms of the next year for Astronomer and for your role? >> Yeah, you know, I think Paola did a really good job of laying it out. So it's, it's really hard to disagree with her on anything, right? I think executing is definitely the most important thing. My own personal bias on that is I think more than ever it's important to really galvanize the community around airflow. So, we're going to be focusing on that a lot. We want to make it easier for our users to get get our product into their hands, be that open source users or commercial users. And last, but certainly not least, is we're also really excited about Data Lineage and this other open source project in our umbrella called Open Lineage to make it so that there's a standard way for users to get lineage out of different systems that they use. When we think about what's in store for data lineage and needing to audit the way automated decisions are being made. You know, I think that's just such an important thing that companies are really just starting with, and I don't think there's a solution that's emerged that kind of ties it all together. So, we think that as we kind of grow the role of Airflow, right, we can also make it so that we're helping solve, we're helping customers solve their lineage problems all in Astro, which is our kind of the best of both worlds for us. >> Awesome. I can definitely feel and hear the enthusiasm and the passion that you both bring to Astronomer, to your customers, to your team. I love it. We could keep talking more and more, so you're going to have to come back. (laughing) Viraj, Paola, thank you so much for joining me today on this showcase conversation. We really appreciate your insights and all the context that you provided about Astronomer. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> My pleasure. For my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this Cube conversation. (soft electronic music)

(bright music) >> Hi, everybody, this is Dave Vellante, welcome back to Supercloud 2. Last August, at the first Supercloud event, we invited the broader community to help further define Supercloud, we assessed its viability, and identified the critical elements and deployment models of the concept. The objectives here at Supercloud too are, first of all, to continue to tighten and test the concept, the second is, we want to get real world input from practitioners on the problems that they're facing and the viability of Supercloud in terms of applying it to their business. So on the program, we got companies like Walmart, Sachs, Western Union, Ionis Pharmaceuticals, NASDAQ, and others. And the third thing that we want to do is we want to drill into the intersection of cloud and data to project what the future looks like in the context of Supercloud. So in this segment, we want to explore the concept of data architectures and what's going to be required for Supercloud. And I'm pleased to welcome one of our Supercloud sponsors, ChaosSearch, Ed Walsh is the CEO of the company, with Thomas Hazel, who's the Founder, CTO, and Chief Scientist. Guys, good to see you again, thanks for coming into our Marlborough studio. >> Always great. >> Great to be here. >> Okay, so there's a little debate, I'm going to put you right in the spot. (Ed chuckling) A little debate going on in the community started by Bob Muglia, a former CEO of Snowflake, and he was at Microsoft for a long time, and he looked at the Supercloud definition, said, "I think you need to tighten it up a little bit." So, here's what he came up with. He said, "A Supercloud is a platform that provides a programmatically consistent set of services hosted on heterogeneous cloud providers." So he's calling it a platform, not an architecture, which was kind of interesting. And so presumably the platform owner is going to be responsible for the architecture, but Dr. Nelu Mihai, who's a computer scientist behind the Cloud of Clouds Project, he chimed in and responded with the following. He said, "Cloud is a programming paradigm supporting the entire lifecycle of applications with data and logic natively distributed. Supercloud is an open architecture that integrates heterogeneous clouds in an agnostic manner." So, Ed, words matter. Is this an architecture or is it a platform? >> Put us on the spot. So, I'm sure you have concepts, I would say it's an architectural or design principle. Listen, I look at Supercloud as a mega trend, just like cloud, just like data analytics. And some companies are using the principle, design principles, to literally get dramatically ahead of everyone else. I mean, things you couldn't possibly do if you didn't use cloud principles, right? So I think it's a Supercloud effect, you're able to do things you're not able to. So I think it's more a design principle, but if you do it right, you get dramatic effect as far as customer value. >> So the conversation that we were having with Muglia, and Tristan Handy of dbt Labs, was, I'll set it up as the following, and, Thomas, would love to get your thoughts, if you have a CRM, think about applications today, it's all about forms and codifying business processes, you type a bunch of stuff into Salesforce, and all the salespeople do it, and this machine generates a forecast. What if you have this new type of data app that pulls data from the transaction system, the e-commerce, the supply chain, the partner ecosystem, et cetera, and then, without humans, actually comes up with a plan. That's their vision. And Muglia was saying, in order to do that, you need to rethink data architectures and database architectures specifically, you need to get down to the level of how the data is stored on the disc. What are your thoughts on that? Well, first of all, I'm going to cop out, I think it's actually both. I do think it's a design principle, I think it's not open technology, but open APIs, open access, and you can build a platform on that design principle architecture. Now, I'm a database person, I love solving the database problems. >> I'm waited for you to launch into this. >> Yeah, so I mean, you know, Snowflake is a database, right? It's a distributed database. And we wanted to crack those codes, because, multi-region, multi-cloud, customers wanted access to their data, and their data is in a variety of forms, all these services that you're talked about. And so what I saw as a core principle was cloud object storage, everyone streams their data to cloud object storage. From there we said, well, how about we rethink database architecture, rethink file format, so that we can take each one of these services and bring them together, whether distributively or centrally, such that customers can access and get answers, whether it's operational data, whether it's business data, AKA search, or SQL, complex distributed joins. But we had to rethink the architecture. I like to say we're not a first generation, or a second, we're a third generation distributed database on pure, pure cloud storage, no caching, no SSDs. Why? Because all that availability, the cost of time, is a struggle, and cloud object storage, we think, is the answer. >> So when you're saying no caching, so when I think about how companies are solving some, you know, pretty hairy problems, take MySQL Heatwave, everybody thought Oracle was going to just forget about MySQL, well, they come out with Heatwave. And the way they solve problems, and you see their benchmarks against Amazon, "Oh, we crush everybody," is they put it all in memory. So you said no caching? You're not getting performance through caching? How is that true, and how are you getting performance? >> Well, so five, six years ago, right? When you realize that cloud object storage is going to be everywhere, and it's going to be a core foundational, if you will, fabric, what would you do? Well, a lot of times the second generation say, "We'll take it out of cloud storage, put in SSDs or something, and put into cache." And that adds a lot of time, adds a lot of costs. But I said, what if, what if we could actually make the first read hot, the first read distributed joins and searching? And so what we went out to do was said, we can't cache, because that's adds time, that adds cost. We have to make cloud object storage high performance, like it feels like a caching SSD. That's where our patents are, that's where our technology is, and we've spent many years working towards this. So, to me, if you can crack that code, a lot of these issues we're talking about, multi-region, multicloud, different services, everybody wants to send their data to the data lake, but then they move it out, we said, "Keep it right there." >> You nailed it, the data gravity. So, Bob's right, the data's coming in, and you need to get the data from everywhere, but you need an environment that you can deal with all that different schema, all the different type of technology, but also at scale. Bob's right, you cannot use memory or SSDs to cache that, that doesn't scale, it doesn't scale cost effectively. But if you could, and what you did, is you made object storage, S3 first, but object storage, the only persistence by doing that. And then we get performance, we should talk about it, it's literally, you know, hundreds of terabytes of queries, and it's done in seconds, it's done without memory caching. We have concepts of caching, but the only caching, the only persistence, is actually when we're doing caching, we're just keeping another side-eye track of things on the S3 itself. So we're using, actually, the object storage to be a database, which is kind of where Bob was saying, we agree, but that's what you started at, people thought you were crazy. >> And maybe make it live. Don't think of it as archival or temporary space, make it live, real time streaming, operational data. What we do is make it smart, we see the data coming in, we uniquely index it such that you can get your use cases, that are search, observability, security, or backend operational. But we don't have to have this, I dunno, static, fixed, siloed type of architecture technologies that were traditionally built prior to Supercloud thinking. >> And you don't have to move everything, essentially, you can do it wherever the data lands, whatever cloud across the globe, you're able to bring it together, you get the cost effectiveness, because the only persistence is the cheapest storage persistent layer you can buy. But the key thing is you cracked the code. >> We had to crack the code, right? That was the key thing. >> That's where the plans are. >> And then once you do that, then everything else gets easier to scale, your architecture, across regions, across cloud. >> Now, it's a general purpose database, as Bob was saying, but we use that database to solve a particular issue, which is around operational data, right? So, we agree with Bob's. >> Interesting. So this brings me to this concept of data, Jimata Gan is one of our speakers, you know, we talk about data fabric, which is a NetApp, originally NetApp concept, Gartner's kind of co-opted it. But so, the basic concept is, data lives everywhere, whether it's an S3 bucket, or a SQL database, or a data lake, it's just a node on the data mesh. So in your view, how does this fit in with Supercloud? Ed, you've said that you've built, essentially, an enabler for that, for the data mesh, I think you're an enabler for the Supercloud-like principles. This is a big, chewy opportunity, and it requires, you know, a team approach. There's got to be an ecosystem, there's not going to be one Supercloud to rule them all, so where does the ecosystem fit into the discussion, and where do you fit into the ecosystem? >> Right, so we agree completely, there's not one Supercloud in effect, but we use Supercloud principles to build our platform, and then, you know, the ecosystem's going to be built on leveraging what everyone else's secret powers are, right? So our power, our superpower, based upon what we built is, we deal with, if you're having any scale, or cost effective scale issues, with data, machine generated data, like business observability or security data, we are your force multiplier, we will take that in singularly, just let it, simply put it in your object storage wherever it sits, and we give you uniformity access to that using OpenAPI access, SQL, or you know, Elasticsearch API. So, that's what we do, that's our superpower. So I'll play it into data mesh, that's a perfect, we are a node on a data mesh, but I'll play it in the soup about how, the ecosystem, we see it kind of playing, and we talked about it in just in the last couple days, how we see this kind of possibly. Short term, our superpowers, we deal with this data that's coming at these environments, people, customers, building out observability or security environments, or vendors that are selling their own Supercloud, I do observability, the Datadogs of the world, dot dot dot, the Splunks of the world, dot dot dot, and security. So what we do is we fit in naturally. What we do is a cost effective scale, just land it anywhere in the world, we deal with ingest, and it's a cost effective, an order of magnitude, or two or three order magnitudes more cost effective. Allows them, their customers are asking them to do the impossible, "Give me fast monitoring alerting. I want it snappy, but I want it to keep two years of data, (laughs) and I want it cost effective." It doesn't work. They're good at the fast monitoring alerting, we're good at the long-term retention. And yet there's some gray area between those two, but one to one is actually cheaper, so we would partner. So the first ecosystem plays, who wants to have the ability to, really, all the data's in those same environments, the security observability players, they can literally, just through API, drag our data into their point to grab. We can make it seamless for customers. Right now, we make it helpful to customers. Your Datadog, we make a button, easy go from Datadog to us for logs, save you money. Same thing with Grafana. But you can also look at ecosystem, those same vendors, it used to be a year ago it was, you know, its all about how can you grow, like it's growth at all costs, now it's about cogs. So literally we can go an environment, you supply what your customer wants, but we can help with cogs. And one-on one in a partnership is better than you trying to build on your own. >> Thomas, you were saying you make the first read fast, so you think about Snowflake. Everybody wants to talk about Snowflake and Databricks. So, Snowflake, great, but you got to get the data in there. All right, so that's, can you help with that problem? >> I mean we want simple in, right? And if you have to have structure in, you're not simple. So the idea that you have a simple in, data lake, schema read type philosophy, but schema right type performance. And so what I wanted to do, what we have done, is have that simple lake, and stream that data real time, and those access points of Search or SQL, to go after whatever business case you need, security observability, warehouse integration. But the key thing is, how do I make that click, click, click answer, and do it quickly? And so what we want to do is, that first read has to be fast. Why? 'Cause then you're going to do all this siloing, layers, complexity. If your first read's not fast, you're at a disadvantage, particularly in cost. And nobody says I want less data, but everyone has to, whether they say we're going to shorten the window, we're going to use AI to choose, but in a security moment, when you don't have that answer, you're in trouble. And that's why we are this service, this Supercloud service, if you will, providing access, well-known search, well-known SQL type access, that if you just have one access point, you're at a disadvantage. >> We actually talked about Snowflake and BigQuery, and a different platform, Data Bricks. That's kind of where we see the phase two of ecosystem. One is easy, the low-hanging fruit is observability and security firms. But the next one is, what we do, our super power is dealing with this messy data that schema is changing like night and day. Pipelines are tough, and it's changing all the time, but you want these things fast, and it's big data around the world. That's the next point, just use us alongside, or inside, one of their platforms, and now we get the best of both worlds. Our superpower is keeping this messy data as a streaming, okay, not a batch thing, allow you to do that. So, that's the second one. And then to be honest, the third one, which plays you to Supercloud, it also plays perfectly in the data mesh, is if you really go to the ultimate thing, what we have done is made object storage, S3, GCS, and blob storage, we made it a database. Put, get, complex query with big joins. You know, so back to your original thing, and Muglia teed it up perfectly, we've done that. Now imagine if that's an ecosystem, who would want that? If it's, again, it's uniform available across all the regions, across all the clouds, and it's right next to where you are building a service, or a client's trying, that's where the ecosystem, I think people are going to use Superclouds for their superpowers. We're really good at this, allows that short term. I think the Snowflakes and the Data Bricks are the medium term, you know? And then I think eventually gets to, hey, listen if you can make object storage fast, you can just go after it with simple SQL queries, or elastic. Who would want that? I think that's where people are going to leverage it. It's not going to be one Supercloud, and we leverage the super clouds. >> Our viewpoint is smart object storage can be programmable, and so we agree with Bob, but we're not saying do it here, do it here. This core, fundamental layer across regions, across clouds, that everyone has? Simple in. Right now, it's hard to get data in for access for analysis. So we said, simply, we'll automate the entire process, give you API access across regions, across clouds. And again, how do you do a distributed join that's fast? How do you do a distributed join that doesn't cost you an arm or a leg? And how do you do it at scale? And that's where we've been focused. >> So prior, the cloud object store was a niche. >> Yeah. >> S3 obviously changed that. How standard is, essentially, object store across the different cloud platforms? Is that a problem for you? Is that an easy thing to solve? >> Well, let's talk about it. I mean we've fundamentally, yeah we've extracted it, but fundamentally, cloud object storage, put, get, and list. That's why it's so scalable, 'cause it doesn't have all these other components. That complexity is where we have moved up, and provide direct analytical API access. So because of its simplicity, and costs, and security, and reliability, it can scale naturally. I mean, really, distributed object storage is easy, it's put-get anywhere, now what we've done is we put a layer of intelligence, you know, call it smart object storage, where access is simple. So whether it's multi-region, do a query across, or multicloud, do a query across, or hunting, searching. >> We've had clients doing Amazon and Google, we have some Azure, but we see Amazon and Google more, and it's a consistent service across all of them. Just literally put your data in the bucket of choice, or folder of choice, click a couple buttons, literally click that to say "that's hot," and after that, it's hot, you can see it. But we're not moving data, the data gravity issue, that's the other. That it's already natively flowing to these pools of object storage across different regions and clouds. We don't move it, we index it right there, we're spinning up stateless compute, back to the Supercloud concept. But now that allows us to do all these other things, right? >> And it's no longer just cheap and deep object storage. Right? >> Yeah, we make it the same, like you have an analytic platform regardless of where you're at, you don't have to worry about that. Yeah, we deal with that, we deal with a stateless compute coming up -- >> And make it programmable. Be able to say, "I want this bucket to provide these answers." Right, that's really the hope, the vision. And the complexity to build the entire stack, and then connect them together, we said, the fabric is cloud storage, we just provide the intelligence on top. >> Let's bring it back to the customers, and one of the things we're exploring in Supercloud too is, you know, is Supercloud a solution looking for a problem? Is a multicloud really a problem? I mean, you hear, you know, a lot of the vendor marketing says, "Oh, it's a disaster, because it's all different across the clouds." And I talked to a lot of customers even as part of Supercloud too, they're like, "Well, I solved that problem by just going mono cloud." Well, but then you're not able to take advantage of a lot of the capabilities and the primitives that, you know, like Google's data, or you like Microsoft's simplicity, their RPA, whatever it is. So what are customers telling you, what are their near term problems that they're trying to solve today, and how are they thinking about the future? >> Listen, it's a real problem. I think it started, I think this is a a mega trend, just like cloud. Just, cloud data, and I always add, analytics, are the mega trends. If you're looking at those, if you're not considering using the Supercloud principles, in other words, leveraging what I have, abstracting it out, and getting the most out of that, and then build value on top, I think you're not going to be able to keep up, In fact, no way you're going to keep up with this data volume. It's a geometric challenge, and you're trying to do linear things. So clients aren't necessarily asking, hey, for Supercloud, but they're really saying, I need to have a better mechanism to simplify this and get value across it, and how do you abstract that out to do that? And that's where they're obviously, our conversations are more amazed what we're able to do, and what they're able to do with our platform, because if you think of what we've done, the S3, or GCS, or object storage, is they can't imagine the ingest, they can't imagine how easy, time to glass, one minute, no matter where it lands in the world, querying this in seconds for hundreds of terabytes squared. People are amazed, but that's kind of, so they're not asking for that, but they are amazed. And then when you start talking on it, if you're an enterprise person, you're building a big cloud data platform, or doing data or analytics, if you're not trying to leverage the public clouds, and somehow leverage all of them, and then build on top, then I think you're missing it. So they might not be asking for it, but they're doing it. >> And they're looking for a lens, you mentioned all these different services, how do I bring those together quickly? You know, our viewpoint, our service, is I have all these streams of data, create a lens where they want to go after it via search, go after via SQL, bring them together instantly, no e-tailing out, no define this table, put into this database. We said, let's have a service that creates a lens across all these streams, and then make those connections. I want to take my CRM with my Google AdWords, and maybe my Salesforce, how do I do analysis? Maybe I want to hunt first, maybe I want to join, maybe I want to add another stream to it. And so our viewpoint is, it's so natural to get into these lake platforms and then provide lenses to get that access. >> And they don't want it separate, they don't want something different here, and different there. They want it basically -- >> So this is our industry, right? If something new comes out, remember virtualization came out, "Oh my God, this is so great, it's going to solve all these problems." And all of a sudden it just got to be this big, more complex thing. Same thing with cloud, you know? It started out with S3, and then EC2, and now hundreds and hundreds of different services. So, it's a complex matter for a lot of people, and this creates problems for customers, especially when you got divisions that are using different clouds, and you're saying that the solution, or a solution for the part of the problem, is to really allow the data to stay in place on S3, use that standard, super simple, but then give it what, Ed, you've called superpower a couple of times, to make it fast, make it inexpensive, and allow you to do that across clouds. >> Yeah, yeah. >> I'll give you guys the last word on that. >> No, listen, I think, we think Supercloud allows you to do a lot more. And for us, data, everyone says more data, more problems, more budget issue, everyone knows more data is better, and we show you how to do it cost effectively at scale. And we couldn't have done it without the design principles of we're leveraging the Supercloud to get capabilities, and because we use super, just the object storage, we're able to get these capabilities of ingest, scale, cost effectiveness, and then we built on top of this. In the end, a database is a data platform that allows you to go after everything distributed, and to get one platform for analytics, no matter where it lands, that's where we think the Supercloud concepts are perfect, that's where our clients are seeing it, and we're kind of excited about it. >> Yeah a third generation database, Supercloud database, however we want to phrase it, and make it simple, but provide the value, and make it instant. >> Guys, thanks so much for coming into the studio today, I really thank you for your support of theCUBE, and theCUBE community, it allows us to provide events like this and free content. I really appreciate it. >> Oh, thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right, this is Dave Vellante for John Furrier in theCUBE community, thanks for being with us today. You're watching Supercloud 2, keep it right there for more thought provoking discussions around the future of cloud and data. (bright music)

(gentle synth music) (music ends) >> Welcome back to Supercloud 2, an open industry collaboration between technologists, consultants, analysts, and of course practitioners to help shape the future of cloud. At this event, one of the key areas we're exploring is the intersection of cloud and data. And how building value on top of hyperscale clouds and across clouds is evolving, a concept of course we call "Supercloud". And we're pleased to welcome our friends from Enterprise Technology research, Erik Bradley and Darren Brabham. Guys, thanks for joining us, great to see you. we love to bring the data into these conversations. >> Thank you for having us, Dave, I appreciate it. >> Yeah, thanks. >> You bet. And so, let me do the setup on what is Supercloud. It's a concept that we've floated, Before re:Invent 2021, based on the idea that cloud infrastructure is becoming ubiquitous, incredibly powerful, but there's a lack of standards across the big three clouds. That creates friction. So we defined over the period of time, you know, better part of a year, a set of essential elements, deployment models for so-called supercloud, which create this common experience for specific cloud services that, of course, again, span multiple clouds and even on-premise data. So Erik, with that as background, I wonder if you could add your general thoughts on the term supercloud, maybe play proxy for the CIO community, 'cause you do these round tables, you talk to these guys all the time, you gather a lot of amazing information from senior IT DMs that compliment your survey. So what are your thoughts on the term and the concept? >> Yeah, sure. I'll even go back to last year when you and I did our predictions panel, right? And we threw it out there. And to your point, you know, there's some haters. Anytime you throw out a new term, "Is it marketing buzz? Is it worth it? Why are you even doing it?" But you know, from my own perspective, and then also speaking to the IT DMs that we interview on a regular basis, this is just a natural evolution. It's something that's inevitable in enterprise tech, right? The internet was not built for what it has become. It was never intended to be the underlying infrastructure of our daily lives and work. The cloud also was not built to be what it's become. But where we're at now is, we have to figure out what the cloud is and what it needs to be to be scalable, resilient, secure, and have the governance wrapped around it. And to me that's what supercloud is. It's a way to define operantly, what the next generation, the continued iteration and evolution of the cloud and what its needs to be. And that's what the supercloud means to me. And what depends, if you want to call it metacloud, supercloud, it doesn't matter. The point is that we're trying to define the next layer, the next future of work, which is inevitable in enterprise tech. Now, from the IT DM perspective, I have two interesting call outs. One is from basically a senior developer IT architecture and DevSecOps who says he uses the term all the time. And the reason he uses the term, is that because multi-cloud has a stigma attached to it, when he is talking to his business executives. (David chuckles) the stigma is because it's complex and it's expensive. So he switched to supercloud to better explain to his business executives and his CFO and his CIO what he's trying to do. And we can get into more later about what it means to him. But the inverse of that, of course, is a good CSO friend of mine for a very large enterprise says the concern with Supercloud is the reduction of complexity. And I'll explain, he believes anything that takes the requirement of specific expertise out of the equation, even a little bit, as a CSO worries him. So as you said, David, always two sides to the coin, but I do believe supercloud is a relevant term, and it is necessary because the cloud is continuing to be defined. >> You know, that's really interesting too, 'cause you know, Darren, we use Snowflake a lot as an example, sort of early supercloud, and you think from a security standpoint, we've always pushed Amazon and, "Are you ever going to kind of abstract the complexity away from all these primitives?" and their position has always been, "Look, if we produce these primitives, and offer these primitives, we we can move as the market moves. When you abstract, then it becomes harder to peel the layers." But Darren, from a data standpoint, like I say, we use Snowflake a lot. I think of like Tim Burners-Lee when Web 2.0 came out, he said, "Well this is what the internet was always supposed to be." So in a way, you know, supercloud is maybe what multi-cloud was supposed to be. But I mean, you think about data sharing, Darren, across clouds, it's always been a challenge. Snowflake always, you know, obviously trying to solve that problem, as are others. But what are your thoughts on the concept? >> Yeah, I think the concept fits, right? It is reflective of, it's a paradigm shift, right? Things, as a pendulum have swung back and forth between needing to piece together a bunch of different tools that have specific unique use cases and they're best in breed in what they do. And then focusing on the duct tape that holds 'em all together and all the engineering complexity and skill, it shifted from that end of the pendulum all the way back to, "Let's streamline this, let's simplify it. Maybe we have budget crunches and we need to consolidate tools or eliminate tools." And so then you kind of see this back and forth over time. And with data and analytics for instance, a lot of organizations were trying to bring the data closer to the business. That's where we saw self-service analytics coming in. And tools like Snowflake, what they did was they helped point to different databases, they helped unify data, and organize it in a single place that was, you know, in a sense neutral, away from a single cloud vendor or a single database, and allowed the business to kind of be more flexible in how it brought stuff together and provided it out to the business units. So Snowflake was an example of one of those times where we pulled back from the granular, multiple points of the spear, back to a simple way to do things. And I think Snowflake has continued to kind of keep that mantle to a degree, and we see other tools trying to do that, but that's all it is. It's a paradigm shift back to this kind of meta abstraction layer that kind of simplifies what is the reality, that you need a complex multi-use case, multi-region way of doing business. And it sort of reflects the reality of that. >> And you know, to me it's a spectrum. As part of Supercloud 2, we're talking to a number of of practitioners, Ionis Pharmaceuticals, US West, we got Walmart. And it's a spectrum, right? In some cases the practitioner's saying, "You know, the way I solve multi-cloud complexity is mono-cloud, I just do one cloud." (laughs) Others like Walmart are saying, "Hey, you know, we actually are building an abstraction layer ourselves, take advantage of it." So my general question to both of you is, is this a concept, is the lack of standards across clouds, you know, really a problem, you know, or is supercloud a solution looking for a problem? Or do you hear from practitioners that "No, this is really an issue, we have to bring together a set of standards to sort of unify our cloud estates." >> Allow me to answer that at a higher level, and then we're going to hand it over to Dr. Brabham because he is a little bit more detailed on the realtime streaming analytics use cases, which I think is where we're going to get to. But to answer that question, it really depends on the size and the complexity of your business. At the very large enterprise, Dave, Yes, a hundred percent. This needs to happen. There is complexity, there is not only complexity in the compute and actually deploying the applications, but the governance and the security around them. But for lower end or, you know, business use cases, and for smaller businesses, it's a little less necessary. You certainly don't need to have all of these. Some of the things that come into mind from the interviews that Darren and I have done are, you know, financial services, if you're doing real-time trading, anything that has real-time data metrics involved in your transactions, is going to be necessary. And another use case that we hear about is in online travel agencies. So I think it is very relevant, the complexity does need to be solved, and I'll allow Darren to explain a little bit more about how that's used from an analytics perspective. >> Yeah, go for it. >> Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think any modern, you know, multinational company that's going to have a footprint in the US and Europe, in China, or works in different areas like manufacturing, where you're probably going to have on-prem instances that will stay on-prem forever, for various performance reasons. You have these complicated governance and security and regulatory issues. So inherently, I think, large multinational companies and or companies that are in certain areas like finance or in, you know, online e-commerce, or things that need real-time data, they inherently are going to have a very complex environment that's going to need to be managed in some kind of cleaner way. You know, they're looking for one door to open, one pane of glass to look at, one thing to do to manage these multi points. And, streaming's a good example of that. I mean, not every organization has a real-time streaming use case, and may not ever, but a lot of organizations do, a lot of industries do. And so there's this need to use, you know, they want to use open-source tools, they want to use Apache Kafka for instance. They want to use different megacloud vendors offerings, like Google Pub/Sub or you know, Amazon Kinesis Firehose. They have all these different pieces they want to use for different use cases at different stages of maturity or proof of concept, you name it. They're going to have to have this complexity. And I think that's why we're seeing this need, to have sort of this supercloud concept, to juggle all this, to wrangle all of it. 'Cause the reality is, it's complex and you have to simplify it somehow. >> Great, thanks you guys. All right, let's bring up the graphic, and take a look. Anybody who follows the breaking analysis, which is co-branded with ETR Cube Insights powered by ETR, knows we like to bring data to the table. ETR does amazing survey work every quarter, 1200 plus 1500 practitioners that that answer a number of questions. The vertical axis here is net score, which is ETR's proprietary methodology, which is a measure of spending momentum, spending velocity. And the horizontal axis here is overlap, but it's the presence pervasiveness, and the dataset, the ends, that table insert on the bottom right shows you how the dots are plotted, the net score and then the ends in the survey. And what we've done is we've plotted a bunch of the so-called supercloud suspects, let's start in the upper right, the cloud platforms. Without these hyperscale clouds, you can't have a supercloud. And as always, Azure and AWS, up and to the right, it's amazing we're talking about, you know, 80 plus billion dollar company in AWS. Azure's business is, if you just look at the IaaS is in the 50 billion range, I mean it's just amazing to me the net scores here. Anything above 40% we consider highly elevated. And you got Azure and you got Snowflake, Databricks, HashiCorp, we'll get to them. And you got AWS, you know, right up there at that size, it's quite amazing. With really big ends as well, you know, 700 plus ends in the survey. So, you know, kind of half the survey actually has these platforms. So my question to you guys is, what are you seeing in terms of cloud adoption within the big three cloud players? I wonder if you could could comment, maybe Erik, you could start. >> Yeah, sure. Now we're talking data, now I'm happy. So yeah, we'll get into some of it. Right now, the January, 2023 TSIS is approaching 1500 survey respondents. One caveat, it's not closed yet, it will close on Friday, but with an end that big we are over statistically significant. We also recently did a cloud survey, and there's a couple of key points on that I want to get into before we get into individual vendors. What we're seeing here, is that annual spend on cloud infrastructure is expected to grow at almost a 70% CAGR over the next three years. The percentage of those workloads for cloud infrastructure are expected to grow over 70% as three years as well. And as you mentioned, Azure and AWS are still dominant. However, we're seeing some share shift spreading around a little bit. Now to get into the individual vendors you mentioned about, yes, Azure is still number one, AWS is number two. What we're seeing, which is incredibly interesting, CloudFlare is number three. It's actually beating GCP. That's the first time we've seen it. What I do want to state, is this is on net score only, which is our measure of spending intentions. When you talk about actual pervasion in the enterprise, it's not even close. But from a spending velocity intention point of view, CloudFlare is now number three above GCP, and even Salesforce is creeping up to be at GCPs level. So what we're seeing here, is a continued domination by Azure and AWS, but some of these other players that maybe might fit into your moniker. And I definitely want to talk about CloudFlare more in a bit, but I'm going to stop there. But what we're seeing is some of these other players that fit into your Supercloud moniker, are starting to creep up, Dave. >> Yeah, I just want to clarify. So as you also know, we track IaaS and PaaS revenue and we try to extract, so AWS reports in its quarterly earnings, you know, they're just IaaS and PaaS, they don't have a SaaS play, a little bit maybe, whereas Microsoft and Google include their applications and so we extract those out and if you do that, AWS is bigger, but in the surveys, you know, customers, they see cloud, SaaS to them as cloud. So that's one of the reasons why you see, you know, Microsoft as larger in pervasion. If you bring up that survey again, Alex, the survey results, you see them further to the right and they have higher spending momentum, which is consistent with what you see in the earnings calls. Now, interesting about CloudFlare because the CEO of CloudFlare actually, and CloudFlare itself uses the term supercloud basically saying, "Hey, we're building a new type of internet." So what are your thoughts? Do you have additional information on CloudFlare, Erik that you want to share? I mean, you've seen them pop up. I mean this is a really interesting company that is pretty forward thinking and vocal about how it's disrupting the industry. >> Sure, we've been tracking 'em for a long time, and even from the disruption of just a traditional CDN where they took down Akamai and what they're doing. But for me, the definition of a true supercloud provider can't just be one instance. You have to have multiple. So it's not just the cloud, it's networking aspect on top of it, it's also security. And to me, CloudFlare is the only one that has all of it. That they actually have the ability to offer all of those things. Whereas you look at some of the other names, they're still piggybacking on the infrastructure or platform as a service of the hyperscalers. CloudFlare does not need to, they actually have the cloud, the networking, and the security all themselves. So to me that lends credibility to their own internal usage of that moniker Supercloud. And also, again, just what we're seeing right here that their net score is now creeping above AGCP really does state it. And then just one real last thing, one of the other things we do in our surveys is we track adoption and replacement reasoning. And when you look at Cloudflare's adoption rate, which is extremely high, it's based on technical capabilities, the breadth of their feature set, it's also based on what we call the ability to avoid stack alignment. So those are again, really supporting reasons that makes CloudFlare a top candidate for your moniker of supercloud. >> And they've also announced an object store (chuckles) and a database. So, you know, that's going to be, it takes a while as you well know, to get database adoption going, but you know, they're ambitious and going for it. All right, let's bring the chart back up, and I want to focus Darren in on the ecosystem now, and really, we've identified Snowflake and Databricks, it's always fun to talk about those guys, and there are a number of other, you know, data platforms out there, but we use those too as really proxies for leaders. We got a bunch of the backup guys, the data protection folks, Rubric, Cohesity, and Veeam. They're sort of in a cluster, although Rubric, you know, ahead of those guys in terms of spending momentum. And then VMware, Tanzu and Red Hat as sort of the cross cloud platform. But I want to focus, Darren, on the data piece of it. We're seeing a lot of activity around data sharing, governed data sharing. Databricks is using Delta Sharing as their sort of place, Snowflakes is sort of this walled garden like the app store. What are your thoughts on, you know, in the context of Supercloud, cross cloud capabilities for the data platforms? >> Yeah, good question. You know, I think Databricks is an interesting player because they sort of have made some interesting moves, with their Data Lakehouse technology. So they're trying to kind of complicate, or not complicate, they're trying to take away the complications of, you know, the downsides of data warehousing and data lakes, and trying to find that middle ground, where you have the benefits of a managed, governed, you know, data warehouse environment, but you have sort of the lower cost, you know, capability of a data lake. And so, you know, Databricks has become really attractive, especially by data scientists, right? We've been tracking them in the AI machine learning sector for quite some time here at ETR, attractive for a data scientist because it looks and acts like a lake, but can have some managed capabilities like a warehouse. So it's kind of the best of both worlds. So in some ways I think you've seen sort of a data science driver for the adoption of Databricks that has now become a little bit more mainstream across the business. Snowflake, maybe the other direction, you know, it's a cloud data warehouse that you know, is starting to expand its capabilities and add on new things like Streamlit is a good example in the analytics space, with apps. So you see these tools starting to branch and creep out a bit, but they offer that sort of neutrality, right? We heard one IT decision maker we recently interviewed that referred to Snowflake and Databricks as the quote unquote Switzerland of what they do. And so there's this desirability from an organization to find these tools that can solve the complex multi-headed use-case of data and analytics, which every business unit needs in different ways. And figure out a way to do that, an elegant way that's governed and centrally managed, that federated kind of best of both worlds that you get by bringing the data close to the business while having a central governed instance. So these tools are incredibly powerful and I think there's only going to be room for growth, for those two especially. I think they're going to expand and do different things and maybe, you know, join forces with others and a lot of the power of what they do well is trying to define these connections and find these partnerships with other vendors, and try to be seen as the nice add-on to your existing environment that plays nicely with everyone. So I think that's where those two tools are going, but they certainly fit this sort of label of, you know, trying to be that supercloud neutral, you know, layer that unites everything. >> Yeah, and if you bring the graphic back up, please, there's obviously big data plays in each of the cloud platforms, you know, Microsoft, big database player, AWS is, you know, 11, 12, 15, data stores. And of course, you know, BigQuery and other, you know, data platforms within Google. But you know, I'm not sure the big cloud guys are going to go hard after so-called supercloud, cross-cloud services. Although, we see Oracle getting in bed with Microsoft and Azure, with a database service that is cross-cloud, certainly Google with Anthos and you know, you never say never with with AWS. I guess what I would say guys, and I'll I'll leave you with this is that, you know, just like all players today are cloud players, I feel like anybody in the business or most companies are going to be so-called supercloud players. In other words, they're going to have a cross-cloud strategy, they're going to try to build connections if they're coming from on-prem like a Dell or an HPE, you know, or Pure or you know, many of these other companies, Cohesity is another one. They're going to try to connect to their on-premise states, of course, and create a consistent experience. It's natural that they're going to have sort of some consistency across clouds. You know, the big question is, what's that spectrum look like? I think on the one hand you're going to have some, you know, maybe some rudimentary, you know, instances of supercloud or maybe they just run on the individual clouds versus where Snowflake and others and even beyond that are trying to go with a single global instance, basically building out what I would think of as their own cloud, and importantly their own ecosystem. I'll give you guys the last thought. Maybe you could each give us, you know, closing thoughts. Maybe Darren, you could start and Erik, you could bring us home on just this entire topic, the future of cloud and data. >> Yeah, I mean I think, you know, two points to make on that is, this question of these, I guess what we'll call legacy on-prem players. These, mega vendors that have been around a long time, have big on-prem footprints and a lot of people have them for that reason. I think it's foolish to assume that a company, especially a large, mature, multinational company that's been around a long time, it's foolish to think that they can just uproot and leave on-premises entirely full scale. There will almost always be an on-prem footprint from any company that was not, you know, natively born in the cloud after 2010, right? I just don't think that's reasonable anytime soon. I think there's some industries that need on-prem, things like, you know, industrial manufacturing and so on. So I don't think on-prem is going away, and I think vendors that are going to, you know, go very cloud forward, very big on the cloud, if they neglect having at least decent connectors to on-prem legacy vendors, they're going to miss out. So I think that's something that these players need to keep in mind is that they continue to reach back to some of these players that have big footprints on-prem, and make sure that those integrations are seamless and work well, or else their customers will always have a multi-cloud or hybrid experience. And then I think a second point here about the future is, you know, we talk about the three big, you know, cloud providers, the Google, Microsoft, AWS as sort of the opposite of, or different from this new supercloud paradigm that's emerging. But I want to kind of point out that, they will always try to make a play to become that and I think, you know, we'll certainly see someone like Microsoft trying to expand their licensing and expand how they play in order to become that super cloud provider for folks. So also don't want to downplay them. I think you're going to see those three big players continue to move, and take over what players like CloudFlare are doing and try to, you know, cut them off before they get too big. So, keep an eye on them as well. >> Great points, I mean, I think you're right, the first point, if you're Dell, HPE, Cisco, IBM, your strategy should be to make your on-premise state as cloud-like as possible and you know, make those differences as minimal as possible. And you know, if you're a customer, then the business case is going to be low for you to move off of that. And I think you're right. I think the cloud guys, if this is a real problem, the cloud guys are going to play in there, and they're going to make some money at it. Erik, bring us home please. >> Yeah, I'm going to revert back to our data and this on the macro side. So to kind of support this concept of a supercloud right now, you know Dave, you and I know, we check overall spending and what we're seeing right now is total year spent is expected to only be 4.6%. We ended 2022 at 5% even though it began at almost eight and a half. So this is clearly declining and in that environment, we're seeing the top two strategies to reduce spend are actually vendor consolidation with 36% of our respondents saying they're actively seeking a way to reduce their number of vendors, and consolidate into one. That's obviously supporting a supercloud type of play. Number two is reducing excess cloud resources. So when I look at both of those combined, with a drop in the overall spending reduction, I think you're on the right thread here, Dave. You know, the overall macro view that we're seeing in the data supports this happening. And if I can real quick, couple of names we did not touch on that I do think deserve to be in this conversation, one is HashiCorp. HashiCorp is the number one player in our infrastructure sector, with a 56% net score. It does multiple things within infrastructure and it is completely agnostic to your environment. And if we're also speaking about something that's just a singular feature, we would look at Rubric for data, backup, storage, recovery. They're not going to offer you your full cloud or your networking of course, but if you are looking for your backup, recovery, and storage Rubric, also number one in that sector with a 53% net score. Two other names that deserve to be in this conversation as we watch it move and evolve. >> Great, thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, we had both of those guys in the chart and I failed to focus in on HashiCorp. And clearly a Supercloud enabler. All right guys, we got to go. Thank you so much for joining us, appreciate it. Let's keep this conversation going. >> Always enjoy talking to you Dave, thanks. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> All right, keep it right there for more content from Supercloud 2. This is Dave Valente for John Ferg and the entire Cube team. We'll be right back. (gentle synth music) (music fades)

>> Now we're recording. >> All right. >> Appreciate that, Hannah. >> Yeah, so I mean, I think in general we continue to do very, very well as a company. I think like everybody, there's economic headwinds today that are unavoidable, but I think we have a couple things going for us. One, we're in the cyberspace, which I think is, for the most part, recession proof as an industry. I think the impact of a recession will impact some vendors and some categories, but in general, I think the industry is pretty resilient. It's like the power industry, no? Recession or not, you still need electricity to your house. Cybersecurity is almost becoming a utility like that as far as the needs of companies go. I think for us, we also have the ability to do the security, the security operations, for a lot of companies, and if you look at the value proposition, the ROI for the cost of less than one to maybe two or three, depending on how big you are as a customer, what you'd have to pay for half to three security operations people, we can give you a full security operations. And so the ROI is is almost kind of brain dead simple, and so that keeps us going pretty well. And I think the other areas, we remove all that complexity for people. So in a world where you got other problems to worry about, handling all the security complexity is something that adds to that ROI. So for us, I think what we're seeing is mostly is some of the larger deals are taking a little bit longer than they have, some of the large enterprise deals, 'cause I think they are being a little more cautious about how they spend it, but in general, business is still kind of cranking along. >> Anything you can share with me that you guys have talked about publicly in terms of any metrics, or what can you tell me other than cranking? >> Yeah, I mean, I would just say we're still very, very high growth, so I think our financial profile would kind of still put us clearly in the cyber unicorn position, but I think other than that, we don't really share business metrics as a private- >> Okay, so how about headcount? >> Still growing. So we're not growing as fast as we've been growing, but I don't think we were anyway. I think we kind of, we're getting to the point of critical mass. We'll start to grow in a more kind of normal course and speed. I don't think we overhired like a lot of companies did in the past, even though we added, almost doubled the size of the company in the last 18 months. So we're still hiring, but very kind of targeted to certain roles going forward 'cause I do think we're kind of at critical mass in some of the other functions. >> You disclose headcount or no? >> We do not. >> You don't, okay. And never have? >> Not that I'm aware of, no. >> Okay, on the macro, I don't know if security's recession proof, but it's less susceptible, let's say. I've had Nikesh Arora on recently, we're at Palo Alto's Ignite, and he was saying, "Look," it's just like you were saying, "Larger deal's a little harder." A lot of times customers, he was saying customers are breaking larger deals into smaller deals, more POCs, more approvals, more people to get through the approval, not whole, blah, blah, blah. Now they're a different animal, I understand, but are you seeing similar trends, and how are you dealing with that? >> Yeah, I think the exact same trends, and I think it's just in a world where spending a dollar matters, I think a lot more oversight comes into play, a lot more reviewers, and can you shave it down here? Can you reduce the scope of the project to save money there? And I think it just caused a lot of those things. I think, in the large enterprise, I think most of those deals for companies like us and Palo and CrowdStrike and kind of the upper tier companies, they'll still go through. I think they'll just going to take a lot longer, and, yeah, maybe they're 80% of what they would've been otherwise, but there's still a lot of business to be had out there. >> So how are you dealing with that? I mean, you're talking about you double the size of the company. Is it kind of more focused on go-to-market, more sort of, maybe not overlay, but sort of SE types that are going to be doing more handholding. How have you dealt with that? Or have you just sort of said, "Hey, it is what it is, and we're not going to, we're not going to tactically respond to. We got long-term direction"? >> Yeah, I think it's more the latter. I think for us, it's we've gone through all these things before. It just takes longer now. So a lot of the steps we're taking are the same steps. We're still involved in a lot of POCs, we're involved in a lot of demos, and I don't think that changed. It's just the time between your POC and when someone sends you the PO, there's five more people now got to review things and go through a budget committee and all sorts of stuff like that. I think where we're probably focused more now is adding more and more capabilities just so we continue to be on the front foot of innovation and being relevant to the market, and trying to create more differentiators for us and the competitors. That's something that's just built into our culture, and we don't want to slow that down. And so even though the business is still doing extremely, extremely well, we want to keep investing in kind of technology. >> So the deal size, is it fair to say the initial deal size for new accounts, while it may be smaller, you're adding more capabilities, and so over time, your average contract values will go up? Are you seeing that trend? Or am I- >> Well, I would say I don't even necessarily see our average deal size has gotten smaller. I think in total, it's probably gotten a little bigger. I think what happens is when something like this happens, the old cream rises to the top thing, I think, comes into play, and you'll see some organizations instead of doing a deal with three or four vendors, they may want to pick one or two and really kind of put a lot of energy behind that. For them, they're maybe spending a little less money, but for those vendors who are amongst those getting chosen, I think they're doing pretty good. So our average deal size is pretty stable. For us, it's just a temporal thing. It's just the larger deals take a little bit longer. I don't think we're seeing much of a deal velocity difference in our mid-market commercial spaces, but in the large enterprise it's a little bit slower. But for us, we have ambitious plans in our strategy or on how we want to execute and what we want to build, and so I think we want to just continue to make sure we go down that path technically. >> So I have some questions on sort of the target markets and the cohorts you're going after, and I have some product questions. I know we're somewhat limited on time, but the historical focus has been on SMB, and I know you guys have gone in into enterprise. I'm curious as to how that's going. Any guidance you can give me on mix? Or when I talk to the big guys, right, you know who they are, the big managed service providers, MSSPs, and they're like, "Poo poo on Arctic Wolf," like, "Oh, they're (groans)." I said, "Yeah, that's what they used to say about the PC. It's just a toy. Or Microsoft SQL Server." But so I kind of love that narrative for you guys, but I'm curious from your words as to, what is that enterprise? How's the historical business doing, and how's the entrance into the enterprise going? What kind of hurdles are you having, blockers are you having to remove? Any color you can give me there would be super helpful. >> Yeah, so I think our commercial S&B business continues to do really good. Our mid-market is a very strong market for us. And I think while a lot of companies like to focus purely on large enterprise, there's a lot more mid-market companies, and a much larger piece of the IT puzzle collectively is in mid-market than it is large enterprise. That being said, we started to get pulled into the large enterprise not because we're a toy but because we're quite a comprehensive service. And so I think what we're trying to do from a roadmap perspective is catch up with some of the kind of capabilities that a large enterprise would want from us that a potential mid-market customer wouldn't. In some case, it's not doing more. It's just doing it different. Like, so we have a very kind of hands-on engagement with some of our smaller customers, something we call our concierge. Some of the large enterprises want more of a hybrid where they do some stuff and you do some stuff. And so kind of building that capability into the platform is something that's really important for us. Just how we engage with them as far as giving 'em access to their data, the certain APIs they want, things of that nature, what we're building out for large enterprise, but the demand by large enterprise on our business is enormous. And so it's really just us kind of catching up with some of the kind of the features that they want that we lack today, but many of 'em are still signing up with us, obviously, and in lieu of that, knowing that it's coming soon. And so I think if you look at the growth of our large enterprise, it's one of our fastest growing segments, and I think it shows anything but we're a toy. I would be shocked, frankly, if there's an MSSP, and, of course, we don't see ourself as an MSSP, but I'd be shocked if any of them operate a platform at the scale that ours operates. >> Okay, so wow. A lot I want to unpack there. So just to follow up on that last question, you don't see yourself as an MSSP because why, you see yourselves as a technology platform? >> Yes, I mean, the vast, vast, vast majority of what we deliver is our own technology. So we integrate with third-party solutions mostly to bring in that telemetry. So we've built our own platform from the ground up. We have our own threat intelligence, our own detection logic. We do have our own agents and network sensors. MSSP is typically cobbling together other tools, third party off-the-shelf tools to run their SOC. Ours is all homegrown technology. So I have a whole group called Arctic Wolf Labs, is building, just cranking out ML-based detections, building out infrastructure to take feeds in from a variety of different sources. We have a full integration kind of effort where we integrate into other third parties. So when we go into a customer, we can leverage whatever they have, but at the same time, we produce some tech that if they're lacking in a certain area, we can provide that tech, particularly around things like endpoint agents and network sensors and the like. >> What about like identity, doing your own identity? >> So we don't do our own identity, but we take feeds in from things like Okta and Active Directory and the like, and we have detection logic built on top of that. So part of our value add is we were XDR before XDR was the cool thing to talk about, meaning we can look across multiple attack surfaces and come to a security conclusion where most EDR vendors started with looking just at the endpoint, right? And then they called themselves XDR because now they took in a network feed, but they still looked at it as a separate network detection. We actually look at the things across multiple attack surfaces and stitch 'em together to look at that from a security perspective. In some cases we have automatic detections that will fire. In other cases, we can surface some to a security professional who can go start pulling on that thread. >> So you don't need to purchase CrowdStrike software and integrate it. You have your own equivalent essentially. >> Well, we'll take a feed from the CrowdStrike endpoint into our platform. We don't have to rely on their detections and their alerts, and things of that nature. Now obviously anything they discover we pull in as well, it's just additional context, but we have all our own tech behind it. So we operate kind of at an MSSP scale. We have a similar value proposition in the sense that we'll use whatever the customer has, but once that data kind of comes into our pipeline, it's all our own homegrown tech from there. >> But I mean, what I like about the MSSP piece of your business is it's very high touch. It's very intimate. What I like about what you're saying is that it's software-like economics, so software, software-like part of it. >> That's what makes us the unicorn, right? Is we do have, our concierges is very hands-on. We continue to drive automation that makes our concierge security professionals more efficient, but we always want that customer to have that concierge person as, is almost an extension to their security team, or in some cases, for companies that don't even have a security team, as their security team. As we go down the path, as I mentioned, one of the things we want to be able to do is start to have a more flexible model where we can have that high touch if you want it. We can have the high touch on certain occasions, and you can do stuff. We can have low touch, like we can span the spectrum, but we never want to lose our kind of unique value proposition around the concierge, but we also want to make sure that we're providing an interface that any customer would want to use. >> So given that sort of software-like economics, I mean, services companies need this too, but especially in software, things like net revenue retention and churn are super important. How are those metrics looking? What can you share with me there? >> Yeah, I mean, again, we don't share those metrics publicly, but all's I can continue to repeat is, if you looked at all of our financial metrics, I think you would clearly put us in the unicorn category. I think very few companies are going to have the level of growth that we have on the amount of ARR that we have with the net revenue retention and the churn and upsell. All those aspects continue to be very, very strong for us. >> I want to go back to the sort of enterprise conversation. So large enterprises would engage with you as a complement to their existing SOC, correct? Is that a fair statement or not necessarily? >> It's in some cases. In some cases, they're looking to not have a SOC. So we run into a lot of cases where they want to replace their SIEM, and they want a solution like Arctic Wolf to do that. And so there's a poll, I can't remember, I think it was Forrester, IDC, one of them did it a couple years ago, and they found out that 70% of large enterprises do not want to build the SOC, and it's not 'cause they don't need one, it's 'cause they can't afford it, they can't staff it, they don't have the expertise. And you think about if you're a tech company or a bank, or something like that, of course you can do it, but if you're an international plumbing distributor, you're not going to (chuckles), someone's not going to graduate from Stanford with a cybersecurity degree and go, "Cool, I want to go work for a plumbing distributor in their SOC," right? So they're going to have trouble kind of bringing in the right talent, and as a result, it's difficult to go make a multimillion-dollar investment into a SOC if you're not going to get the quality people to operate it, so they turn to companies like us. >> Got it, so, okay, so you're talking earlier about capabilities that large enterprises require that there might be some gaps, you might lack some features. A couple questions there. One is, when you do some of those, I inferred some of that is integrations. Are those integrations sort of one-off snowflakes or are you finding that you're able to scale those across the large enterprises? That's my first question. >> Yeah, so most of the integrations are pretty straightforward. I think where we run into things that are kind of enterprise-centric, they definitely want open APIs, they want access to our platform, which we don't do today, which we are going to be doing, but we don't do that yet today. They want to do more of a SIEM replacement. So we're really kind of what we call an open XDR platform, so there's things that we would need to build to kind of do raw log ingestion. I mean, we do this today. We have raw log ingestion, we have log storage, we have log searching, but there's like some of the compliance scenarios that they need out of their SIEM. We don't do those today. And so that's kind of holding them back from getting off their SIEM and going fully onto a solution like ours. Then the other one is kind of the level of customization, so the ability to create a whole bunch of custom rules, and that ties back to, "I want to get off my SIEM. I've built all these custom rules in my SIEM, and it's great that you guys do all this automatic AI stuff in the background, but I need these very specific things to be executed on." And so trying to build an interface for them to be able to do that and then also simulate it, again, because, no matter how big they are running their SIEM and their SOC... Like, we talked to one of the largest financial institutions in the world. As far as we were told, they have the largest individual company SOC in the world, and we operate almost 15 times their size. So we always have to be careful because this is a cloud-based native platform, but someone creates some rule that then just craters the performance of the whole platform, so we have to build kind of those guardrails around it. So those are the things primarily that the large enterprises are asking for. Most of those issues are not holding them back from coming. They want to know they're coming, and we're working on all of those. >> Cool, and see, just aside, I was talking to CISO the other day, said, "If it weren't for my compliance and audit group, I would chuck my SIEM." I mean, everybody wants to get rid of their SIEM. >> I've never met anyone who likes their SIEM. >> Do you feel like you've achieved product market fit in the larger enterprise or is that still something that you're sorting out? >> So I think we know, like, we're on a path to do that. We're on a provable path to do that, so I don't think there's any surprises left. I think everything that we know we need to do for that is someone's writing code for it today. It's just a matter of getting it through the system and getting into production. So I feel pretty good about it. I think that's why we are seeing such a high growth rate in our large enterprise business, 'cause we share that feedback with some of those key customers. We have a Customer Advisory Board that we share a lot of this information with. So yeah, I mean, I feel pretty good about what we need to do. We're certainly operate at large enterprise scales, so taking in the amount of the volume of data they're going to have and the types of integrations they need. We're comfortable with that. It's just more or less the interfaces that a large enterprise would want that some of the smaller companies don't ask for. >> Do you have enough tenure in the market to get a sense as to stickiness or even indicators that will lead toward retention? Have you been at it long enough in the enterprise or you still, again, figuring that out? >> Yeah, no, I think we've been at it long enough, and our retention rates are extremely high. If anything, kind of our net retention rates, well over 100% 'cause we have opportunities to upsell into new modules and expanding the coverage of what they have today. I think the areas that if you cornered enterprise that use us and things they would complain about are things I just told you about, right? There's still some things I want to do in my Splunk, and I need an API to pull my data out and put it in my Splunk and stuff like that, and those are the things we want to enable. >> Yeah, so I can't wait till you guys go public because you got Snowflake up here, and you got Veritas down here, and I'm very curious as to where you guys go. When's the IPO? You want to tell me that? (chuckling) >> Unfortunately, it's not up to us right now. You got to get the markets- >> Yeah, I hear you. Right, if the market were better. Well, if the market were better, you think you'd be out? >> Yeah, I mean, we'd certainly be a viable candidate to go. >> Yeah, there you go. I have a question for you because I don't have a SOC. I run a small business with my co-CEO. We're like 30, 40 people W-2s, we got another 50 or so contractors, and I'm always like have one eye, sleep with one eye open 'cause of security. What is your ideal SMB customer? Think S. >> Yeah. >> Would I fit? >> Yeah, I mean you're you're right in the sweet spot. I think where the company started and where we still have a lot of value proposition, which is companies like, like you said it, you sleep with one eye open, but you don't have necessarily the technical acumen to be able to do that security for yourself, and that's where we fit in. We bring kind of this whole security, we call it Security Operations Cloud, to bear, and we have some of the best professionals in the world who can basically be your SOC for less than it would cost you to hire somebody right out of college to do IT stuff. And so the value proposition's there. You're going to get the best of the best, providing you a kind of a security service that you couldn't possibly build on your own, and that way you can go to bed at night and close both eyes. >> So (chuckling) I'm sure something else would keep me up. But so in thinking about that, our Amazon bill keeps growing and growing and growing. What would it, and I presume I can engage with you on a monthly basis, right? As a consumption model, or how's the pricing work? >> Yeah, so there's two models that we have. So typically the kind of the monthly billing type of models would be through one of our MSP partners, where they have monthly billing capabilities. Usually direct with us is more of a longer term deal, could be one, two, or three, or it's up to the customer. And so we have both of those engagement models. Were doing more and more and more through MSPs today because of that model you just described, and they do kind of target the very S in the SMB as well. >> I mean, rough numbers, even ranges. If I wanted to go with the MSP monthly, I mean, what would a small company like mine be looking at a month? >> Honestly, I do not even know the answer to that. >> We're not talking hundreds of thousands of dollars a month? >> No. God, no. God, no. No, no, no. >> I mean, order of magnitude, we're talking thousands, tens of thousands? >> Thousands, on a monthly basis. Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. Thousands per month. So if I were to budget between 20 and $50,000 a year, I'm definitely within the envelope. Is that fair? I mean, I'm giving a wide range >> That's fair. just to try to make- >> No, that's fair. >> And if I wanted to go direct with you, I would be signing up for a longer term agreement, correct, like I do with Salesforce? >> Yeah, yeah, a year. A year would, I think, be the minimum for that, and, yeah, I think the budget you set aside is kind of right in the sweet spot there. >> Yeah, I'm interested, I'm going to... Have a sales guy call me (chuckles) somehow. >> All right, will do. >> No, I'm serious. I want to start >> I will. >> investigating these things because we sell to very large organizations. I mean, name a tech company. That's our client base, except for Arctic Wolf. We should talk about that. And increasingly they're paranoid about data protection agreements, how you're protecting your data, our data. We write a lot of software and deliver it as part of our services, so it's something that's increasingly important. It's certainly a board level discussion and beyond, and most large organizations and small companies oftentimes don't think about it or try not to. They just put their head in the sand and, "We don't want to be doing that," so. >> Yeah, I will definitely have someone get in touch with you. >> Cool. Let's see. Anything else you can tell me on the product side? Are there things that you're doing that we talked about, the gaps at the high end that you're, some of the features that you're building in, which was super helpful. Anything in the SMB space that you want to share? >> Yeah, I think the biggest thing that we're doing technically now is really trying to drive more and more automation and efficiency through our operations, and that comes through really kind of a generous use of AI. So building models around more efficient detections based upon signal, but also automating the actions of our operators so we can start to learn through the interface. When they do A and B, they always do C. Well, let's just do C for them, stuff like that. Then also building more automation as far as the response back to third-party solutions as well so we can remediate more directly on third-party products without having to get into the consoles or having our customers do it. So that's really just trying to drive efficiency in the system, and that helps provide better security outcomes but also has a big impact on our margins as well. >> I know you got to go, but I want to show you something real quick. I have data. I do a weekly program called "Breaking Analysis," and I have a partner called ETR, Enterprise Technology Research, and they have a platform. I don't know if you can see this. They have a survey platform, and each quarter, they do a survey of about 1,500 IT decision makers. They also have a survey on, they call ETS, Emerging Technology Survey. So it's private companies. And I don't want to go into it too much, but this is a sentiment graph. This is net sentiment. >> Just so you know, all I see is a white- >> Yeah, just a white bar. >> Oh, that's weird. Oh, whiteboard. Oh, here we go. How about that? >> There you go. >> Yeah, so this is a sentiment graph. So this is net sentiment and this is mindshare. And if I go to Arctic Wolf... So it's typical security, right? The 8,000 companies. And when I go here, what impresses me about this is you got a decent mindshare, that's this axis, but you've also got an N in the survey. It's about 1,500 in the survey, It's 479 Arctic Wolf customers responded to this. 57% don't know you. Oh, sorry, they're aware of you, but no plan to evaluate; 19% plan to evaluate, 7% are evaluating; 11%, no plan to utilize even though they've evaluated you; and 1% say they've evaluated you and plan to utilize. It's a small percentage, but actually it's not bad in the random sample of the world about that. And so obviously you want to get that number up, but this is a really impressive position right here that I wanted to just share with you. I do a lot of analysis weekly, and this is a really, it's completely independent survey, and you're sort of separating from the pack, as you can see. So kind of- >> Well, it's good to see that. And I think that just is a further indicator of what I was telling you. We continue to have a strong financial performance. >> Yeah, in a good market. Okay, well, thanks you guys. And hey, if I can get this recording, Hannah, I may even figure out how to write it up. (chuckles) That would be super helpful. >> Yes. We'll get that up. >> And David or Hannah, if you can send me David's contact info so I can get a salesperson in touch with him. (Hannah chuckling) >> Yeah, great. >> Yeah, we'll work on that as well. Thanks so much for both your time. >> Thanks a lot. It was great talking with you. >> Thanks, you guys. Great to meet you. >> Thank you. >> Bye. >> Bye.