>> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with David Nicholson, day four of MWC '23. Show's winding down a little bit, but it's still pretty packed here. Lot of innovation, planes, trains, automobiles, and we're talking 5G all week, private networks, connected breweries. It's super exciting. Really happy to have Warren Jackson here as the Edge Gateway Product Technologist at Dell Technologies, and Scott Waller, the CTO of the 5G Open Innovation Lab. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. >> Good to be here. >> Really interesting stories that we're going to talk about. Let's start, Scott, with you, what is the Open Innovation Lab? >> So it was hatched three years ago. Ideated about a bunch of guys from Microsoft who ran startup ventures program, started the developers program over at Microsoft, if you're familiar with MSDN. And they came three years ago and said, how does CSPs working with someone like T-Mobile who's in our backyard, I'm from Seattle. How do they monetize the edge? You need a developer ecosystem of applications and use cases. That's always been the thing. The carriers are building the networks, but where's the ecosystem of startups? So we built a startup ecosystem that is sponsored by partners, Dell being one sponsor, Intel, Microsoft, VMware, Aspirant, you name it. The enterprise folks who are also in the connectivity business. And with that, we're not like a Y Combinator or a Techstars where it's investment first and it's all about funding. It's all about getting introductions from a startup who might have a VR or AI type of application or observability for 5G slicing, and bring that in front of the Microsoft's of the world, or the Intel's and the Dell's of the world that they might not have the capabilities to do it because they're still a small little startup with an MVP. So we really incubate. We're the connectors and build a network. We've had 101 startups over the last three years. They've raised over a billion dollars. And it's really valuable to our partners like T-Mobile and Dell, et cetera, where we're bringing in folks like Expedo and GenXComm and Firecell. Start up private companies that are around here they were cohorts from our program in the past. >> That's awesome because I've often, I mean, I've seen Dell get into this business and I'm like, wow, they've done a really good job of finding these guys. I wonder what the pipeline is. >> We're trying to create the pipeline for the entire industry, whether it's 5G on the edge for the CSPs, or it's for private enterprise networks. >> Warren, what's this cool little thing you got here? >> Yeah, so this is very unique in the Dell portfolio. So when people think of Dell, they think of servers laptops, et cetera. But what this does is it's designed to be deployed at the edge in harsh environments and it allows customers to do analytics, data collection at the edge. And what's unique about it is it's got an extended temperature range. There's no fan in this and there's lots of ports on it for data ingestion. So this is a smaller box Edge Gateway 3200. This is the product that we're using in the brewery. And then we have a bigger brother of this, the Edge Gateway 5200. So the value of it, you can scale depending on what your edge compute requirements are at the edge. >> So tell us about the brewery story. And you covered it, I know you were in the Dell booth, but it's basically an analog brewery. They're taking measurements and temperatures and then writing it down and then entering it in and somebody from your company saw it and said, "We can help you with this problem." Explain the story. >> Yeah, so Scott and I did a walkthrough of the brewery back in November timeframe. >> It's in Framingham, Mass. >> Framingham, Mass, correct. And basically, we talked to him, and we said, what keeps you guys up at night? What's a problem that we can solve? Very simple, a kind of a lower budget, didn't have a lot money to spend on it, but what problem can we solve that will realize great benefit for you? So we looked at their fermentation process, which was completely analog. Somebody was walking around with a clipboard looking at analog gauges. And what we did is we digitized that process. So what this did for them rather than being completely reactive, and by the time they realized there was something going wrong with the fermentation process, it's too late. A batch of scrap. This allowed them to be proactive. So anytime, anywhere on the tablet or a phone, they can see if that fermentation process is going out of range and do something about it before the batch gets scrapped. >> Okay. Amazing. And Scott, you got a picture of this workflow here? >> Yeah, actually this is the final product. >> Explain that. >> As Warren mentioned, the data is actually residing in the industrial side of the network So we wanted to keep the IT/OT separation, which is critical on the factory floor. And so all the data is brought in from the sensors via digital connection once it's converted and into the edge gateway. Then there's a snapshot of it using Telit deviceWISE, their dashboarding application, that is decoding all the digital readings, putting them in a nice dashboard. And then when we gave them, we realized another problem was they're using cheap little Chromebooks that they spill beer on once a week and throw them out. That's why they bought the cheap ones 'cause they go through them so fast. So we got a Dell Latitude Rugged notebook. This is a brand new tablet, but they have the dashboarding software. So no matter if they're out there on the floor, but because the data resides there on the factory they have access to be able to change the parameters. This one's in the maturation cycle. This one's in the crashing cycle where they're bringing the temperature back down, stopping the fermentation process, getting it ready to go to the canning side of the house. >> And they're doing all that from this dashboard. >> They're doing all from the dashboard. They also have a giant screen that we put up there that in the floor instead of walking a hundred yards back behind a whole bunch of machinery equipment from a safety perspective, now they just look up on the screen and go, "Oh, that's red. That's out of range." They're actually doing a bunch of cleaning and a bunch of other things right now, too. So this is real time from Boston. >> Dave: Oh okay. >> Scott: This is actually real time from Boston. >> I'm no hop master, but I'm looking at these things flashing at me and I'm thinking something's wrong with my beer. >> We literally just lit this up last week. So we're still tweaking a few things, but they're also learning around. This is a new capability they never had. Oh, we have the ability to alert and monitor at different processes with different batches, different brews, different yeast types. Then now they're also training and learning. And we're going to turn that into eventually a product that other breweries might be able to use. >> So back to the kind of nuts and bolts of the system. The device that you have here has essentially wifi antennas on the back. >> Warren: Correct. >> Pull that up again if you would, please. >> Now I've seen this, just so people are clear, there are also paddle 5G antennas that go on the other side. >> Correct. >> That's sort of the connection from the 5G network that then gets transmogrified, technical term guys, into wifi so the devices that are physically connected to the brew vats, don't know what they're called. >> Fermentation tanks. >> Fermentation tanks, thank you. Those are wifi. That's a wifi signal that's going into this. Is that correct? >> Scott: No. >> No, it's not. >> It's a hard wire. >> Okay, okay. >> But, you're right. This particular gateway. >> It could be wifi if it's hard wire. >> It could be, yes. Could be any technology really. >> This particular gateway is not outfitted with 5G, but something that was very important in this application was to isolate the IT network, which is on wifi and physically connected from the OT network, which is the 5G connection. So we're sending the data directly from the gateway up to the cloud. The two partners that we worked with on this project were ifm, big sensor manufacturer that actually did the wired sensors into an industrial network called IO-Link. So they're physically wired into the gateway and then in the gateway we have a solution from our partner Telit that has deviceWISE software that actually takes the data in, runs the analytics on it, the logic, and then visualizes that data locally on those panels and also up to their cloud, which is what we're looking at. So they can look at it locally, they're in the plant and then up in the cloud on a phone or a tablet, whatever, when they're at home. >> We're talking about a small business here. I don't know how many employees they have, but it's not thousands. And I love that you're talking about an IT network and an OT network. And so they wanted, it is very common when we talk about industrial internet of things use cases, but we're talking about a tiny business here. >> Warren: Correct. >> They wanted to separate those networks because of cost, because of contention. Explain why. >> Yeah, just because, I mean, they're running their ERP system, their payroll, all of their kind of the way they run their business on their IT network and you don't want to have the same traffic out on the factory floor on that network, so it was pretty important. And the other thing is we really, one of the things that we didn't want to do in this project is interrupt their production process at all. So we installed this entire system in two days. They didn't have to shut down, they didn't have to stop. We didn't have to interrupt their process at all. It was like we were invisible there and we spun the thing up and within two days, very simple, easy, but tremendous value for their business. >> Talk about new markets here. I mean, it's like any company that's analog that needs to go digital. It's like 99% of the companies on the planet. What are you guys seeing out there in terms of the types of examples beyond breweries? >> Yeah, I could talk to that. So I spent a lot of time over the last couple years running my own little IoT company and a lot of it being in agriculture. So like in Washington state, 70% of the world's hops is actually grown in Washington state. It's my hometown. But in the Ag producing regions, there's lack of connectivity. So there's interest in private networks because the carriers aren't necessarily deploying it. But because we have the vast amount of hops there's a lot of IPAs, a lot of hoppy IPAs that come out of Seattle. And with that, there's a ton of craft breweries that are about the same size, some are a little larger. Anheuser-Busch and InBev and Heineken they've got great IoT platforms. They've done it. They're mass scale, they have to digitize. But the smaller shops, they don't, when we talk about IT/OT separation, they're not aware of that. They think it's just, I get local broadband and I get wifi and one hotspot inside my facility and it works. So a little bit of it was the education. I have got years in IT/OT security in my background so that education and we come forward with a solution that actually does that for them. And now they're aware of it. So now when they're asking questions of other vendors that are trying to sell them some type of solution, they're inherently aware of what should be done so they're not vulnerable to ransomware attacks, et cetera. So it's known as the Purdue Model. >> Well, what should they do? >> We came in and keep it completely separated and educated them because in the end too we'll build a design guide and a starter kit out of this that other brewers can use. Because I've toured dozens of breweries in Washington, the exact same scenario, analog gauges, analog process, very manual. And in the end, when you ask the brewer, what do they want out of this? It keeps them up at night because if the temperature goes out of range, because the chiller fails, >> They ruined. >> That's $30,000 lost in beer. That's a lot to a small business. However, it's also once they start digitizing the data and to Warren's point, it's read-only. We're not changing any of the process. We augmented on top of their existing systems. We didn't change their process. But now they have the ability to look at the data and see batch to batch consistency. Quality doesn't always mean best, it means consistency from batch to batch. Every beer from exhibit A from yesterday to two months from now of the same style of beer should be the same taste, flavor, boldness, et cetera. This is giving them the insights on it. >> It's like St. Louis Buds, when we were kids. We would buy the St. Louis Buds 'cause they tasted better than the Merrimack Buds. And then Budweiser made them all the same. >> Must be an East coast thing. >> It's an old guy thing, Dave. You weren't born yet. >> I was in high school. Yeah, I was in high school. >> We like the hops. >> We weren't 21. Do me a favor, clarify OT versus IT. It's something we talk about all the time, but not everyone's familiar with that separation. Define OT for me. >> It's really the factory floor. You got IT systems that are ERP systems, billing, you're getting your emails, stuff like that. Where the ransomware usually gets infected in. The OT side is the industrial control network. >> David: What's the 'O' stand for? >> Operation. >> David: Operation? >> Yeah, the operations side. >> 'Cause some people will think objects 'cause we think internet of things. >> The industrial operations, think of it that way. >> But in a sense those are things that are connected. >> And you think of that as they are the safety systems as well. So a machine, if someone doesn't push the stop button, you'd think if there's a lot of traffic on that network, it isn't guaranteed that that stop button actually stops that blade from coming down, someone's going to lose their arm. So it's very tied to safety, reliability, low latency. It is crafted in design that it never touches the internet inherently without having to go through a security gateway which is what we did. >> You mentioned the large companies like InBev, et cetera. You're saying they're already there. Are they not part of your target market? Or are there ways that you can help them? Is this really more of a small to mid-size company? >> For this particular solution, I think so, yeah. Because the cost to entry is low. I mean, you talk about InBev, they have millions of dollars of budgets to spend on OT. So they're completely automated from top to bottom. But these little craft brewers, which they're everywhere in the US. Vermont, Washington state, they're completely manual. A lot of these guys just started in their garage. And they just scaled up and they got a cult kind of following around their beers. One thing that we found here this week, when you talk around edge and 5G and beer, those things get people excited. In our booth we're serving beer, and all these kind of topics, it brings people together. >> And it lets the little guy compete more effectively with the big giants. >> Correct. >> And how do you do more with less as the little guy is kind of the big thing and to Warren's point, we have folks come up and say, "Great, this is for beer, but what about wine? What about the fermentation process of wine?" Same materials in the end. A vessel of some sort, maybe it's stainless steel. The clamps are the same, the sensors are the same. The parameters like temperature are key in any type of fermentation. We had someone talking about olive oil and using that. It's the same sanitary beverage style equipment. We grabbed sensors that were off the shelf and then we integrated them in and used the set of platforms that we could. How do we rapidly enable these guys at the lowest possible cost with stuff that's at the shelf. And there's four different companies in the solution. >> We were having a conversation with T-Mobile a little earlier and she mentioned the idea of this sounding scary. And this is a great example of showing that in fact, at a relatively small scale, this technology makes a lot of sense. So from that perspective, of course you can implement private 5G networks at an industrial scale with tens of millions of dollars of investment. But what about all of the other things below? And that seems to be a perfect example. >> Yeah, correct. And it's one of the things with the gateway and having flexibility the way Dell did a great job of putting really good modems in it. It had a wide spectrum range of what bands they support. So being able to say, at a larger facility, I mean, if Heineken wants to deploy something like this, oh, heck yeah, they probably could do it. And they might have a private 5G network, but let's say T-Mobile offers a private offering on their public via a slice. It's easy to connect that radio to it. You just change the sims. >> Is that how the CSPs fit here? How are they monetized? >> Yeah, correct. So one of our partners is T-Mobile and so we're working with them. We've got other telco partners that are coming on board in our lab. And so we'll do the same thing. We're going to take this back and put it in the lab and offer it up as others because the baseline building blocks or Lego blocks per se can be used in a bunch of different industries. It's really that starter point of giving folks the idea of what's possible. >> So small manufacturing, agriculture you mentioned, any other sort of use cases we should tune into? >> I think it's environmental monitoring, all of that stuff, I see it in IoT deployments all over the world. Just the simple starter kits 'cause a farmer doesn't want to get sold a solution, a platform, where he's got to hire a bunch of coders and partner with the big carriers. He just wants something that works. >> Another use case that we see a lot, a high cost in a lot of these places is the cost of energy. And a lot of companies don't know what they're spending on electricity. So a very simple energy monitoring system like that, it's a really good ROI. I'm going to spend five or $10,000 on a system like this, but I'm going to save $20,000 over a year 'cause I'm able to see, have visibility into that data. That's a lot of what this story's about, just giving visibility into the process. >> It's very cool, and like you said, it gets people excited. Is it a big market? How do you size it? Is it a big TAM? >> Yeah, so one thing that Dell brings to the table in this space is people are buying their laptops, their servers and whatnot from Dell and companies are comfortable in doing business with Dell because of our model direct to customer and whatnot. So our ability to bring a device like this to the OT space and have them have that same user experience they have with laptops and our client products in a ruggedized solution like this and bring a lot of partners to the table makes it easy for our customers to implement this across all kinds of industries. >> So we're talking to billions, tens of billions. Do we know how big this market is? What's the TAM? I mean, come on, you work for Dell. You have to do a TAM analysis. >> Yes, no, yeah. I mean, it really is in the billions. The market is huge for this one. I think we just tapped into it. We're kind of focused in on the brewery piece of it and the liquor piece of it, but the possibilities are endless. >> Yeah, that's tip of the spear. Guys, great story. >> It's scalable. I think the biggest thing, just my final feedback is working and partnering with Dell is we got something as small as this edge gateway that I can run a Packet Core on and run a 5G standalone node and then have one of the small little 5G radios out there. And I've got these deployed in a farm. Give the farmer an idea of what's possible, give him a unit on his tractor, and now he can do something that, we're providing connectivity he had never had before. But as we scale up, we've got the big brother to this. When we scale up from that, we got the telco size units that we can put. So it's very scalable. It's just a great suite of offerings. >> Yeah, outstanding. Guys, thanks for sharing the story. Great to have you on theCUBE. >> Good to be with you today. >> Stop by for beer later. >> You know it. All right, Dave Vellante for Dave Nicholson and the entire CUBE team, we're here live at the Fira in Barcelona MWC '23 day four. Keep it right there. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome to this exclusive discussion. IBM, the next three years of life sciences, innovation, precision medicine, advanced clinical data management and beyond. My name is Dave Volante from the Cuban today, we're going to take a deep dive into some of the most important trends impacting the life sciences industry in the next 60 minutes. Yeah, of course. We're going to hear how IBM is utilizing Watson and some really important in life impacting ways, but we'll also bring in real world perspectives from industry and the independent analyst view to better understand how technology and data are changing the nature of precision medicine. Now, the pandemic has created a new reality for everyone, but especially for life sciences companies, one where digital transformation is no longer an option, but a necessity. Now the upside is the events of the past 22 months have presented an accelerated opportunity for innovation technology and real world data are coming together and being applied to support life science, industry trends and improve drug discovery, clinical development, and treatment commercialization throughout the product life cycle cycle. Now I'd like to introduce our esteemed panel. Let me first introduce Lorraine Marshawn, who is general manager of life sciences at IBM Watson health. Lorraine leads the organization dedicated to improving clinical development research, showing greater treatment value in getting treatments to patients faster with differentiated solutions. Welcome Lorraine. Great to see you. >>Dr. Namita LeMay is the research vice-president of IDC, where she leads the life sciences R and D strategy and technology program, which provides research based advisory and consulting services as well as market analysis. The loan to meta thanks for joining us today. And our third panelist is Greg Cunningham. Who's the director of the RWE center of excellence at Eli Lilly and company. Welcome, Greg, you guys are doing some great work. Thanks for being here. Thanks >>Dave. >>Now today's panelists are very passionate about their work. If you'd like to ask them a question, please add it to the chat box located near the bottom of your screen, and we'll do our best to answer them all at the end of the panel. Let's get started. Okay, Greg, and then Lorraine and meta feel free to chime in after one of the game-changers that you're seeing, which are advancing precision medicine. And how do you see this evolving in 2022 and into the next decade? >>I'll give my answer from a life science research perspective. The game changer I see in advancing precision medicine is moving from doing research using kind of a single gene mutation or kind of a single to look at to doing this research using combinations of genes and the potential that this brings is to bring better drug targets forward, but also get the best product to a patient faster. Um, I can give, uh, an example how I see it playing out in the last decade. Non-oncology real-world evidence. We've seen an evolution in precision medicine as we've built out the patient record. Um, as we've done that, uh, the marketplace has evolved rapidly, uh, with, particularly for electronic medical record data and genomic data. And we were pretty happy to get our hands on electronic medical record data in the early days. And then later the genetic test results were combined with this data and we could do research looking at a single mutation leading to better patient outcomes. But I think where we're going to evolve in 2022 and beyond is with genetic testing, growing and oncology, providing us more data about that patient. More genes to look at, uh, researchers can look at groups of genes to analyze, to look at that complex combination of gene mutations. And I think it'll open the door for things like using artificial intelligence to help researchers plow through the complex number of permutations. When you think about all those genes you can look at in combination, right? Lorraine yes. Data and machine intelligence coming together, anything you would add. >>Yeah. Thank you very much. Well, I think that Greg's response really sets us up nicely, particularly when we think about the ability to utilize real-world data in the farm industry across a number of use cases from discovery to development to commercial, and, you know, in particular, I think with real world data and the comments that Greg just made about clinical EMR data linked with genetic or genomic data, a real area of interest in one that, uh, Watson health in particular is focused on the idea of being able to create a data exchange so that we can bring together claims clinical EMR data, genomics data, increasingly wearables and data directly from patients in order to create a digital health record that we like to call an intelligent patient health record that basically gives us the digital equivalent of a real life patient. And these can be used in use cases in randomized controlled clinical trials for synthetic control arms or natural history. They can be used in order to track patients' response to drugs and look at outcomes after they've been on various therapies as, as Greg is speaking to. And so I think that, you know, the promise of data and technology, the AI that we can apply on that is really helping us advance, getting therapies to market faster, with better information, lower sample sizes, and just a much more efficient way to do drug development and to track and monitor outcomes in patients. >>Great. Thank you for that now to meta, when I joined IDC many, many years ago, I really didn't know much about the industry that I was covering, but it's great to see you as a former practitioner now bringing in your views. What do you see as the big game-changers? >>So, um, I would, I would agree with what both Lorraine and Greg said. Um, but one thing that I'd just like to call out is that, you know, everyone's talking about big data, the volume of data is growing. It's growing exponentially actually about, I think 30% of data that exists today is healthcare data. And it's growing at a rate of 36%. That's huge, but then it's not just about the big, it's also about the broad, I think, um, you know, I think great points that, uh, Lorraine and Greg brought out that it's, it's not just specifically genomic data, it's multi omic data. And it's also about things like medical history, social determinants of health, behavioral data. Um, and why, because when you're talking about precision medicine and we know that we moved away from the, the terminology of personalized to position, because you want to talk about disease stratification and you can, it's really about convergence. >>Um, if you look at a recent JAMA paper in 2021, only 1% of EHS actually included genomic data. So you really need to have that ability to look at data holistically and IDC prediction is seeing that investments in AI to fuel in silico, silicone drug discovery will double by 20, 24, but how are you actually going to integrate all the different types of data? Just look at, for example, diabetes, you're on type two diabetes, 40 to 70% of it is genetically inherited and you have over 500 different, uh, genetic low side, which could be involved in playing into causing diabetes. So the earlier strategy, when you are looking at, you know, genetic risk scoring was really single trait. Now it's transitioning to multi rate. And when you say multi trade, you really need to get that integrated view that converging for you to, to be able to drive a precision medicine strategy. So to me, it's a very interesting contrast on one side, you're really trying to make it specific and focused towards an individual. And on the other side, you really have to go wider and bigger as well. >>Uh, great. I mean, the technology is enabling that convergence and the conditions are almost mandating it. Let's talk about some more about data that the data exchange and building an intelligent health record, as it relates to precision medicine, how will the interoperability of real-world data, you know, create that more cohesive picture for the, for the patient maybe Greg, you want to start, or anybody else wants to chime in? >>I think, um, the, the exciting thing from, from my perspective is the potential to gain access to data. You may be weren't aware of an exchange in implies that, uh, some kind of cataloging, so I can see, uh, maybe things that might, I just had no idea and, uh, bringing my own data and maybe linking data. These are concepts that I think are starting to take off in our field, but it, it really opens up those avenues to when you, you were talking about data, the robustness and richness volume isn't, uh, the only thing is Namita said, I think really getting to a rich high-quality data and, and an exchange offers a far bigger, uh, range for all of us to, to use, to get our work done. >>Yeah. And I think, um, just to chime, chime into that, uh, response from Greg, you know, what we hear increasingly, and it's pretty pervasive across the industry right now, because this ability to create an exchange or the intelligent, uh, patient health record, these are new ideas, you know, they're still rather nascent and it always is the operating model. Uh, that, that is the, uh, the difficult challenge here. And certainly that is the case. So we do have data in various silos. Uh, they're in patient claims, they're in electronic medical records, they might be in labs, images, genetic files on your smartphone. And so one of the challenges with this interoperability is being able to tap into these various sources of data, trying to identify quality data, as Greg has said, and the meta is underscoring as well. Uh, we've gotta be able to get to the depth of data that's really meaningful to us, but then we have to have technology that allows us to pull this data together. >>First of all, it has to be de-identified because of security and patient related needs. And then we've gotta be able to link it so that you can create that likeness in terms of the record, it has to be what we call cleaned or curated so that you get the noise and all the missing this out of it, that's a big step. And then it needs to be enriched, which means that the various components that are going to be meaningful, you know, again, are brought together so that you can create that cohort of patients, that individual patient record that now is useful in so many instances across farm, again, from development, all the way through commercial. So the idea of this exchange is to enable that exact process that I just described to have a, a place, a platform where various entities can bring their data in order to have it linked and integrated and cleaned and enriched so that they get something that is a package like a data package that they can actually use. >>And it's easy to plug into their, into their studies or into their use cases. And I think a really important component of this is that it's gotta be a place where various third parties can feel comfortable bringing their data together in order to match it with other third parties. That is a, a real value, uh, that the industry is increasingly saying would be important to them is, is the ability to bring in those third-party data sets and be able to link them and create these, these various data products. So that's really the idea of the data exchange is that you can benefit from accessing data, as Greg mentioned in catalogs that maybe are across these various silos so that you can do the kind of work that you need. And that we take a lot of the hard work out of it. I like to give an example. >>We spoke with one of our clients at one of the large pharma companies. And, uh, I think he expressed it very well. He said, what I'd like to do is have like a complete dataset of lupus. Lupus is an autoimmune condition. And I've just like to have like the quintessential lupus dataset that I can use to run any number of use cases across it. You know, whether it's looking at my phase one trial, whether it's selecting patients and enriching for later stage trials, whether it's understanding patient responses to different therapies as I designed my studies. And so, you know, this idea of adding in therapeutic area indication, specific data sets and being able to create that for the industry in the meta mentioned, being able to do that, for example, in diabetes, that's how pharma clients need to have their needs met is through taking the hard workout, bringing the data together, having it very therapeutically enriched so that they can use it very easily. >>Thank you for that detail and the meta. I mean, you can't do this with humans at scale in technology of all the things that Lorraine was talking about, the enrichment, the provenance, the quality, and of course, it's got to be governed. You've got to protect the privacy privacy humans just can't do all that at massive scale. Can it really tech that's where technology comes in? Doesn't it and automation. >>Absolutely. >>I, couldn't more, I think the biggest, you know, whether you talk about precision medicine or you talk about decentralized trials, I think there's been a lot of hype around these terms, but what is really important to remember is technology is the game changer and bringing all that data together is really going to be the key enabler. So multimodal data integration, looking at things like security or federated learning, or also when you're talking about leveraging AI, you're not talking about things like bias or other aspects around that are, are critical components that need to be addressed. I think the industry is, uh, it's partly, still trying to figure out the right use cases. So it's one part is getting together the data, but also getting together the right data. Um, I think data interoperability is going to be the absolute game changer for enabling this. Uh, but yes, um, absolutely. I can, I can really couldn't agree more with what Lorraine just said, that it's bringing all those different aspects of data together to really drive that precision medicine strategy. >>Excellent. Hey Greg, let's talk about protocols decentralized clinical trials. You know, they're not new to life silences, but, but the adoption of DCTs is of course sped up due to the pandemic we've had to make trade-offs obviously, and the risk is clearly worth it, but you're going to continue to be a primary approach as we enter 2022. What are the opportunities that you see to improve? How DCTs are designed and executed? >>I see a couple opportunities to improve in this area. The first is, uh, back to technology. The infrastructure around clinical trials has, has evolved over the years. Uh, but now you're talking about moving away from kind of site focus to the patient focus. Uh, so with that, you have to build out a new set of tools that would help. So for example, one would be novel trial, recruitment, and screening, you know, how do you, how do you find patients and how do you screen them to see if are they, are they really a fit for, for this protocol? Another example, uh, very important documents that we have to get is, uh, you know, the e-consent that someone's says, yes, I'm, well, I understand this study and I'm willing to do it, have to do that in a more remote way than, than we've done in the past. >>Um, the exciting area, I think, is the use of, uh, eco, uh, E-Pro where we capture data from the patient using apps, devices, sensors. And I think all of these capabilities will bring a new way of, of getting data faster, uh, in, in this kind of model. But the exciting thing from, uh, our perspective at Lily is it's going to bring more data about the patient from the patient, not just from the healthcare provider side, it's going to bring real data from these apps, devices and sensors. The second thing I think is using real-world data to identify patients, to also improve protocols. We run scenarios today, looking at what's the impact. If you change a cut point on a, a lab or a biomarker to see how that would affect, uh, potential enrollment of patients. So it, it definitely the real-world data can be used to, to make decisions, you know, how you improve these protocols. >>But the thing that we've been at the challenge we've been after that this probably offers the biggest is using real-world data to identify patients as we move away from large academic centers that we've used for years as our sites. Um, you can maybe get more patients who are from the rural areas of our countries or not near these large, uh, uh, academic centers. And we think it'll bring a little more diversity to the population, uh, who who's, uh, eligible, but also we have their data, so we can see if they really fit the criteria and the probability they are a fit for the trial is much higher than >>Right. Lorraine. I mean, your clients must be really pushing you to help them improve DCTs what are you seeing in the field? >>Yes, in fact, we just attended the inaugural meeting of the de-central trials research Alliance in, uh, in Boston about two weeks ago where, uh, all of the industry came together, pharma companies, uh, consulting vendors, just everyone who's been in this industry working to help define de-central trials and, um, think through what its potential is. Think through various models in order to enable it, because again, a nascent concept that I think COVID has spurred into action. Um, but it is important to take a look at the definition of DCT. I think there are those entities that describe it as accessing data directly from the patient. I think that is a component of it, but I think it's much broader than that. To me, it's about really looking at workflows and processes of bringing data in from various remote locations and enabling the whole ecosystem to work much more effectively along the data continuum. >>So a DCT is all around being able to make a site more effective, whether it's being able to administer a tele visit or the way that they're getting data into the electronic data captures. So I think we have to take a look at the, the workflows and the operating models for enabling de-central trials and a lot of what we're doing with our own technology. Greg mentioned the idea of electronic consent of being able to do electronic patient reported outcomes, other collection of data directly from the patient wearables tele-health. So these are all data acquisition, methodologies, and technologies that, that we are enabling in order to get the best of the data into the electronic data capture system. So edit can be put together and processed and submitted to the FDA for regulatory use for clinical trial type submission. So we're working on that. I think the other thing that's happening is the ability to be much more flexible and be able to have more cloud-based storage allows you to be much more inter-operable to allow API APIs in order to bring in the various types of data. >>So we're really looking at technology that can make us much more fluid and flexible and accommodating to all the ways that people live and work and manage their health, because we have to reflect that in the way we collect those data types. So that's a lot of what we're, what we're focused on. And in talking with our clients, we spend also a lot of time trying to understand along the, let's say de-central clinical trials continuum, you know, w where are they? And I know Namita is going to talk a little bit about research that they've done in terms of that adoption curve, but because COVID sort of forced us into being able to collect data in more remote fashion in order to allow some of these clinical trials to continue during COVID when a lot of them had to stop. What we want to make sure is that we understand and can codify some of those best practices and that we can help our clients enable that because the worst thing that would happen would be to have made some of that progress in that direction. >>But then when COVID is over to go back to the old ways of doing things and not bring some of those best practices forward, and we actually hear from some of our clients in the pharma industry, that they worry about that as well, because we don't yet have a system for operationalizing a de-central trial. And so we really have to think about the protocol it's designed, the indication, the types of patients, what makes sense to decentralize, what makes sense to still continue to collect data in a more traditional fashion. So we're spending a lot of time advising and consulting with our patients, as well as, I mean, with our clients, as well as CRS, um, on what the best model is in terms of their, their portfolio of studies. And I think that's a really important aspect of trying to accelerate the adoption is making sure that what we're doing is fit for purpose, just because you can use technology doesn't mean you should, it really still does require human beings to think about the problem and solve them in a very practical way. >>Great, thank you for that. Lorraine. I want to pick up on some things that Lorraine was just saying. And then back to what Greg was saying about, uh, uh, DCTs becoming more patient centric, you had a prediction or IDC, did I presume your fingerprints were on it? Uh, that by 20 25, 70 5% of trials will be patient-centric decentralized clinical trials, 90% will be hybrid. So maybe you could help us understand that relationship and what types of innovations are going to be needed to support that evolution of DCT. >>Thanks, Dave. Yeah. Um, you know, sorry, I, I certainly believe that, uh, you know, uh, Lorraine was pointing out of bringing up a very important point. It's about being able to continue what you have learned in over the past two years, I feel this, you know, it was not really a digital revolution. It was an attitude. The revolution that this industry underwent, um, technology existed just as clinical trials exist as drugs exist, but there was a proof of concept that technology works that this model is working. So I think that what, for example, telehealth, um, did for, for healthcare, you know, transition from, from care, anywhere care, anytime, anywhere, and even becoming predictive. That's what the decentralized clinical trials model is doing for clinical trials today. Great points again, that you have to really look at where it's being applied. You just can't randomly apply it across clinical trials. >>And this is where the industry is maturing the complexity. Um, you know, some people think decentralized trials are very simple. You just go and implement these centralized clinical trials, but it's not that simple as it it's being able to define, which are the right technologies for that specific, um, therapeutic area for that specific phase of the study. It's being also a very important point is bringing in the patient's voice into the process. Hey, I had my first telehealth visit sometime last year and I was absolutely thrilled about it. I said, no time wasted. I mean, everything's done in half an hour, but not all patients want that. Some want to consider going back and you, again, need to customize your de-centralized trials model to, to the, to the type of patient population, the demographics that you're dealing with. So there are multiple factors. Um, also stepping back, you know, Lorraine mentioned they're consulting with, uh, with their clients, advising them. >>And I think a lot of, um, a lot of companies are still evolving in their maturity in DCTs though. There's a lot of boys about it. Not everyone is very mature in it. So it's, I think it, one thing everyone's kind of agreeing with is yes, we want to do it, but it's really about how do we go about it? How do we make this a flexible and scalable modern model? How do we integrate the patient's voice into the process? What are the KPIs that we define the key performance indicators that we define? Do we have a playbook to implement this model to make it a scalable model? And, you know, finally, I think what organizations really need to look at is kind of developing a de-centralized mature maturity scoring model, so that I assess where I am today and use that playbook to define, how am I going to move down the line to me reach the next level of maturity. Those were some of my thoughts. Right? >>Excellent. And now remember you, if you have any questions, use the chat box below to submit those questions. We have some questions coming in from the audience. >>At one point to that, I think one common thread between the earlier discussion around precision medicine and around decentralized trials really is data interoperability. It is going to be a big game changer to, to enable both of these pieces. Sorry. Thanks, Dave. >>Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So again, put your questions in the chat box. I'm actually going to go to one of the questions from the audience. I get some other questions as well, but when you think about all the new data types that are coming in from social media, omics wearables. So the question is with greater access to these new types of data, what trends are you seeing from pharma device as far as developing capabilities to effectively manage and analyze these novel data types? Is there anything that you guys are seeing, um, that you can share in terms of best practice or advice >>I'll offer up? One thing, I think the interoperability isn't quite there today. So, so what's that mean you can take some of those data sources. You mentioned, uh, some Omix data with, uh, some health claims data and it's the, we spend too much time and in our space putting data to gather the behind the scenes, I think the stat is 80% of the time is assembling the data 20% analyzing. And we've had conversations here at Lilly about how do we get to 80% of the time is doing analysis. And it really requires us to think, take a step back and think about when you create a, uh, a health record, you really have to be, have the same plugins so that, you know, data can be put together very easily, like Lorraine mentioned earlier. And that comes back to investing in as an industry and standards so that, you know, you have some of data standard, we all can agree upon. And then those plugs get a lot easier and we can spend our time figuring out how to make, uh, people's lives better with healthcare analysis versus putting data together, which is not a lot of fun behind the scenes. >>Other thoughts on, um, on, on how to take advantage of sort of novel data coming from things like devices in the nose that you guys are seeing. >>I could jump in there on your end. Did you want to go ahead? Okay. So, uh, I mean, I think there's huge value that's being seen, uh, in leveraging those multiple data types. I think one area you're seeing is the growth of prescription digital therapeutics and, um, using those to support, uh, you know, things like behavioral health issues and a lot of other critical conditions it's really taking you again, it is interlinking real-world data cause it's really taking you to the patient's home. Um, and it's, it's, there's a lot of patients in the city out here cause you can really monitor the patient real-time um, without the patient having coming, you know, coming and doing a site visit once in say four weeks or six weeks. So, um, I, and, uh, for example, uh, suicidal behavior and just to take an example, if you can predict well in advance, based on those behavioral parameters, that this is likely to trigger that, uh, the value of it is enormous. Um, again, I think, uh, Greg made a valid point about the industry still trying to deal with resolving the data interoperability issue. And there are so many players that are coming in the industry right now. There are really few that have the maturity and the capability to address these challenges and provide intelligence solutions. >>Yeah. Maybe I'll just, uh, go ahead and, uh, and chime into Nikita's last comment there. I think that's what we're seeing as well. And it's very common, you know, from an innovation standpoint that you have, uh, a nascent industry or a nascent innovation sort of situation that we have right now where it's very fragmented. You have a lot of small players, you have some larger entrenched players that have the capability, um, to help to solve the interoperability challenge, the standards challenge. I mean, I think IBM Watson health is certainly one of the entities that has that ability and is taking a stand in the industry, uh, in order to, to help lead in that way. Others are too. And, uh, but with, with all of the small companies that are trying to find interesting and creative ways to gather that data, it does create a very fragmented, uh, type of environment and ecosystem that we're in. >>And I think as we mature, as we do come forward with the KPIs, the operating models, um, because you know, the devil's in the detail in terms of the operating models, it's really exciting to talk these trends and think about the future state. But as Greg pointed out, if you're spending 80% of your time just under the hood, you know, trying to get the engine, all the spark plugs to line up, um, that's, that's just hard grunt work that has to be done. So I think that's where we need to be focused. And I think bringing all the data in from these disparate tools, you know, that's fine, we need, uh, a platform or the API APIs that can enable that. But I think as we, as we progress, we'll see more consolidation, uh, more standards coming into play, solving the interoperability types of challenges. >>And, um, so I think that's where we should, we should focus on what it's going to take and in three years to really codify this and make it, so it's a, it's a well hum humming machine. And, you know, I do know having also been in pharma that, uh, there's a very pilot oriented approach to this thing, which I think is really healthy. I think large pharma companies tend to place a lot of bets with different programs on different tools and technologies, to some extent to see what's gonna stick and, you know, kind of with an innovation mindset. And I think that's good. I think that's kind of part of the process of figuring out what is going to work and, and helping us when we get to that point of consolidating our model and the technologies going forward. So I think all of the efforts today are definitely driving us to something that feels much more codified in the next three to five years. >>Excellent. We have another question from the audience it's sort of related to the theme of this discussion, given the FDA's recent guidance on using claims and electronic health records, data to support regulatory decision-making what advancements do you think we can expect with regards to regulatory use of real-world data in the coming years? It's kind of a two-parter so maybe you guys can collaborate on this one. What role that, and then what role do you think industry plays in influencing innovation within the regulatory space? >>All right. Well, it looks like you've stumped the panel there. Uh, Dave, >>It's okay to take some time to think about it, right? You want me to repeat it? You guys, >>I, you know, I I'm sure that the group is going to chime into this. I, so the FDA has issued a guidance. Um, it's just, it's, it's exactly that the FDA issues guidances and says that, you know, it's aware and supportive of the fact that we need to be using real-world data. We need to create the interoperability, the standards, the ways to make sure that we can include it in regulatory submissions and the like, um, and, and I sort of think about it akin to the critical path initiative, probably, I don't know, 10 or 12 years ago in pharma, uh, when the FDA also embrace this idea of the critical path and being able to allow more in silico modeling of clinical trial, design and development. And it really took the industry a good 10 years, um, you know, before they were able to actually adopt and apply and take that sort of guidance or openness from the FDA and actually apply it in a way that started to influence the way clinical trials were designed or the in silico modeling. >>So I think the second part of the question is really important because while I think the FDA is saying, yes, we recognize it's important. Uh, we want to be able to encourage and support it. You know, when you look for example, at synthetic control arms, right? The use of real-world data in regulatory submissions over the last five or six years, all of the use cases have been in oncology. I think there've been about maybe somewhere between eight to 10 submissions. And I think only one actually was a successful submission, uh, in all those situations, the real-world data arm of that oncology trial that synthetic control arm was actually rejected by the FDA because of lack of completeness or, you know, equalness in terms of the data. So the FDA is not going to tell us how to do this. So I think the second part of the question, which is what's the role of industry, it's absolutely on industry in order to figure out exactly what we're talking about, how do we figure out the interoperability, how do we apply the standards? >>How do we ensure good quality data? How do we enrich it and create the cohort that is going to be equivalent to the patient in the real world, uh, in the end that would otherwise be in the clinical trial and how do we create something that the FDA can agree with? And we'll certainly we'll want to work with the FDA in order to figure out this model. And I think companies are already doing that, but I think that the onus is going to be on industry in order to figure out how you actually operationalize this and make it real. >>Excellent. Thank you. Um, question on what's the most common misconception that clinical research stakeholders with sites or participants, et cetera might have about DCTs? >>Um, I could jump in there. Right. So, sure. So, um, I think in terms of misconceptions, um, I think the communist misconceptions that sites are going away forever, which I do not think is really happening today. Then the second, second part of it is that, um, I think also the perspective that patients are potentially neglected because they're moving away. So we'll pay when I, when I, what I mean by that neglected, perhaps it was not the appropriate term, but the fact that, uh, will patients will, will, will patient engagement continue, will retention be strong since the patients are not interacting in person with the investigator quite as much. Um, so site retention and patient retention or engagement from both perspectives, I think remains a concern. Um, but actually if you look at, uh, look at, uh, assessments that have been done, I think patients are more than happy. >>Majority of the patients have been really happy about, about the new model. And in fact, sites are, seem to increase, have increased investments in technology by 50% to support this kind of a model. So, and the last thing is that, you know, decentralized trials is a great model and it can be applied to every possible clinical trial. And in another couple of weeks, the whole industry will be implementing only decentralized trials. I think we are far away from that. It's just not something that you would implement across every trial. And we discussed that already. So you have to find the right use cases for that. So I think those were some of the key misconceptions I'd say in the industry right now. Yeah. >>Yeah. And I would add that the misconception I hear the most about is, uh, the, the similar to what Namita said about the sites and healthcare professionals, not being involved to the level that they are today. Uh, when I mentioned earlier in our conversation about being excited about capturing more data, uh, from the patient that was always in context of, in addition to, you know, healthcare professional opinion, because I think both of them bring that enrichment and a broader perspective of that patient experience, whatever disease they're faced with. So I, I think some people think is just an all internet trial with just someone, uh, putting out there their own perspective. And, and it's, it's a combination of both to, to deliver a robust data set. >>Yeah. Maybe I'll just comment on, it reminds me of probably 10 or 15 years ago, maybe even more when, um, really remote monitoring was enabled, right? So you didn't have to have the study coordinator traveled to the investigative site in order to check the temperature of the freezer and make sure that patient records were being completed appropriately because they could have a remote visit and they could, they could send the data in a via electronic data and do the monitoring visit, you know, in real time, just the way we're having this kind of communication here. And there was just so much fear that you were going to replace or supplant the personal relationship between the sites between the study coordinators that you were going to, you know, have to supplant the role of the monitor, which was always a very important role in clinical trials. >>And I think people that really want to do embrace the technology and the advantages that it provided quickly saw that what it allowed was the monitor to do higher value work, you know, instead of going in and checking the temperature on a freezer, when they did have their visit, they were able to sit and have a quality discussion for example, about how patient recruitment was going or what was coming up in terms of the consent. And so it created a much more high touch, high quality type of interaction between the monitor and the investigative site. And I think we should be looking for the same advantages from DCT. We shouldn't fear it. We shouldn't think that it's going to supplant the site or the investigator or the relationship. It's our job to figure out where the technology fits and clinical sciences always got to be high touch combined with high-tech, but the high touch has to lead. And so getting that balance right? And so that's going to happen here as well. We will figure out other high value work, meaningful work for the site staff to do while they let the technology take care of the lower quality work, if you will, or the lower value work, >>That's not an, or it's an, and, and you're talking about the higher value work. And it, it leads me to something that Greg said earlier about the 80, 20, 80% is assembly. 20% is actually doing the analysis and that's not unique to, to, to life sciences, but, but sort of question is it's an organizational question in terms of how we think about data and how we approach data in the future. So Bamyan historically big data in life sciences in any industry really is required highly centralized and specialized teams to do things that the rain was talking about, the enrichment, the provenance, the data quality, the governance, the PR highly hyper specialized teams to do that. And they serve different constituencies. You know, not necessarily with that, with, with context, they're just kind of data people. Um, so they have responsibility for doing all those things. Greg, for instance, within literally, are you seeing a move to, to, to democratize data access? We've talked about data interoperability, part of that state of sharing, um, that kind of breaks that centralized hold, or is that just too far in the future? It's too risky in this industry? >>Uh, it's actually happening now. Uh, it's a great point. We, we try to classify what people can do. And, uh, the example would be you give someone who's less analytically qualified, uh, give them a dashboard, let them interact with the data, let them better understand, uh, what, what we're seeing out in the real world. Uh, there's a middle user, someone who you could give them, they can do some analysis with the tool. And the nice thing with that is you have some guardrails around that and you keep them in their lane, but it allows them to do some of their work without having to go ask those centralized experts that, that you mentioned their precious resources. And that's the third group is those, uh, highly analytical folks that can, can really deliver, uh, just value beyond. But when they're doing all those other things, uh, it really hinders them from doing what we've been talking about is the high value stuff. So we've, we've kind of split into those. We look at people using data in one of those three lanes and it, and it has helped I think, uh, us better not try to make a one fit solution for, for how we deliver data and analytic tools for people. Right. >>Okay. I mean, DCT hot topic with the, the, the audience here. Another question, um, what capabilities do sponsors and CRS need to develop in-house to pivot toward DCT? >>Should I jump in here? Yeah, I mean, um, I think, you know, when, when we speak about DCTs and when I speak with, uh, folks around in the industry, I, it takes me back to the days of risk-based monitoring. When it was first being implemented, it was a huge organizational change from the conventional monitoring models to centralize monitoring and risk-based monitoring, it needs a mental reset. It needs as Lorraine had pointed out a little while ago, restructuring workflows, re redefining processes. And I think that is one big piece. That is, I think the first piece, when, you know, when you're implementing a new model, I think organizational change management is a big piece of it because you are disturbing existing structures, existing methods. So getting that buy-in across the organization towards the new model, seeing what the value add in it. And where do you personally fit into that story? >>How do your workflows change, or how was your role impacted? I think without that this industry will struggle. So I see organizations, I think, first trying to work on that piece to build that in. And then of course, I also want to step back for the second to the, uh, to the point that you brought out about data democratization. And I think Greg Greg gave an excellent point, uh, input about how it's happening in the industry. But I would also say that the data democratization really empowerment of, of, of the stakeholders also includes the sites, the investigators. So what is the level of access to data that you know, that they have now, and is it, uh, as well as patients? So see increasingly more and more companies trying to provide access to patients finally, it's their data. So why shouldn't they have some insights to it, right. So access to patients and, uh, you know, the 80, 20 part of it. Uh, yes, he's absolutely right that, uh, we want to see that flip from, uh, 20%, um, you know, focusing on, on actually integrating the data 80% of analytics, but the real future will be coming in when actually the 20 and 18 has gone. And you actually have analysts the insights out on a silver platter. That's kind of wishful thinking, some of the industries is getting there in small pieces, but yeah, then that's just why I should, why we share >>Great points. >>And I think that we're, we're there in terms that like, I really appreciate the point around democratizing the data and giving the patient access ownership and control over their own data. I mean, you know, we see the health portals that are now available for patients to view their own records, images, and labs, and claims and EMR. We have blockchain technology, which is really critical here in terms of the patient, being able to pull all of their own data together, you know, in the blockchain and immutable record that they can own and control if they want to use that to transact clinical trial types of opportunities based on their data, they can, or other real world scenarios. But if they want to just manage their own data because they're traveling and if they're in a risky health situation, they've got their own record of their health, their health history, uh, which can avoid, you know, medical errors occurring. So, you know, even going beyond life sciences, I think this idea of democratizing data is just good for health. It's just good for people. And we definitely have the technology that can make it a reality. Now >>You're here. We have just about 10 minutes left and now of course, now all the questions are rolling in like crazy from the crowd. Would it be curious to know if there would be any comments from the panel on cost comparison analysis between traditional clinical trials in DCTs and how could the outcome effect the implementation of DCTs any sort of high-level framework you can share? >>I would say these are still early days to, to drive that analysis because I think many companies are, um, are still in the early stages of implementation. They've done a couple of trials. The other part of it that's important to keep in mind is, um, is for organizations it's, they're at a stage of, uh, of being on the learning curve. So when you're, you're calculating the cost efficiencies, if ideally you should have had two stakeholders involved, you could have potentially 20 stakeholders involved because everyone's trying to learn the process and see how it's going to be implemented. So, um, I don't think, and the third part of it, I think is organizations are still defining their KPIs. How do you measure it? What do you measure? So, um, and even still plugging in the pieces of technology that they need to fit in, who are they partnering with? >>What are the pieces of technology they're implementing? So I don't think there is a clear cut as answered at this stage. I think as you scale this model, the efficiencies will be seen. It's like any new technology or any new solution that's implemented in the first stages. It's always a little more complex and in fact sometimes costs extra. But as, as you start scaling it, as you establish your workflows, as you streamline it, the cost efficiencies will start becoming evident. That's why the industry is moving there. And I think that's how it turned out on the long run. >>Yeah. Just make it maybe out a comment. If you don't mind, the clinical trials are, have traditionally been costed are budgeted is on a per patient basis. And so, you know, based on the difficulty of the therapeutic area to recruit a rare oncology or neuromuscular disease, there's an average that it costs in order to find that patient and then execute the various procedures throughout the clinical trial on that patient. And so the difficulty of reaching the patient and then the complexity of the trial has led to what we might call a per patient stipend, which is just the metric that we use to sort of figure out what the average cost of a trial will be. So I think to point, we're going to have to see where the ability to adjust workflows, get to patients faster, collect data more easily in order to make the burden on the site, less onerous. I think once we start to see that work eases up because of technology, then I think we'll start to see those cost equations change. But I think right now the system isn't designed in order to really measure the economic benefit of de-central models. And I think we're going to have to sort of figure out what that looks like as we go along and since it's patient oriented right now, we'll have to say, well, you know, how does that work, ease up? And to those costs actually come down and then >>Just scale, it's going to be more, more clear as the media was saying, next question from the audiences, it's kind of a best fit question. You all have touched on this, but let me just ask it is what examples in which, in which phases suit DCT in its current form, be it fully DCT or hybrid models, none of our horses for courses question. >>Well, I think it's kind of, uh, it's, it's it's has its efficiencies, obviously on the later phases, then the absolute early phase trials, those are not the ideal models for DCTs I would say so. And again, the logic is also the fact that, you know, when you're, you're going into the later phase trials, the volume of number of patients is increasing considerably to the point that Lorraine brought up about access to the patients about patient selection. The fact, I think what one should look at is really the advantages that it brings in, in terms of, you know, patient access in terms of patient diversity, which is a big piece that, um, the cities are enabling. So, um, if you, if, if you, if you look at the spectrum of, of these advantages and, and just to step back for a moment, if you, if you're looking at costs, like you're looking at things like remote site monitoring, um, is, is a big, big plus, right? >>I mean, uh, site monitoring alone accounts for around a third of the trial costs. So there are so many pieces that fall in together. The challenge actually that comes when you're in defining DCTs and there are, as Rick pointed out multiple definitions of DCTs that are existing, uh, you know, in the industry right now, whether you're talking of what Detroit is doing, or you're talking about acro or Citi or others. But the point is it's a continuum, it's a continuum of different pieces that have been woven together. And so how do you decide which pieces you're plugging in and how does that impact the total cost or the solution that you're implementing? >>Great, thank you. Last question we have in the audience, excuse me. What changes have you seen? Are there others that you can share from the FDA EU APAC, regulators and supporting DCTs precision medicine for approval processes, anything you guys would highlight that we should be aware of? >>Um, I could quickly just add that. I think, um, I'm just publishing a report on de-centralized clinical trials should be published shortly, uh, perspective on that. But I would say that right now, um, there, there was a, in the FDA agenda, there was a plan for a decentralized clinical trials guidance, as far as I'm aware, one has not yet been published. There have been significant guidances that have been published both by email and by, uh, the FDA that, um, you know, around the implementation of clinical trials during the COVID pandemic, which incorporate various technology pieces, which support the DCD model. Um, but I, and again, I think one of the reasons why it's not easy to publish a well-defined guidance on that is because there are so many moving pieces in it. I think it's the Danish, uh, regulatory agency, which has per se published a guidance and revised it as well on decentralized clinical trials. >>Right. Okay. Uh, we're pretty much out of time, but I, I wonder Lorraine, if you could give us some, some final thoughts and bring us home things that we should be watching or how you see the future. >>Well, I think first of all, let me, let me thank the panel. Uh, we really appreciate Greg from Lily and the meta from IDC bringing their perspectives to this conversation. And, uh, I hope that the audience has enjoyed the, uh, the discussion that we've had around the future state of real world data as, as well as DCT. And I think, you know, some of the themes that we've talked about, number one, I think we have a vision and I think we have the right strategies in terms of the future promise of real-world data in any number of different applications. We certainly have talked about the promise of DCT to be more efficient, to get us closer to the patient. I think that what we have to focus on is how we come together as an industry to really work through these very vexing operational issues, because those are always the things that hang us up and whether it's clinical research or whether it's later stage, uh, applications of data. >>We, the healthcare system is still very fragmented, particularly in the us. Um, it's still very, state-based, uh, you know, different states can have different kinds of, uh, of, of cultures and geographic, uh, delineations. And so I think that, you know, figuring out a way that we can sort of harmonize and bring all of the data together, bring some of the models together. I think that's what you need to look to us to do both industry consulting organizations, such as IBM Watson health. And we are, you know, through DTRA and, and other, uh, consortia and different bodies. I think we're all identifying what the challenges are in terms of making this a reality and working systematically on those. >>It's always a pleasure to work with such great panelists. Thank you, Lorraine Marshawn, Dr. Namita LeMay, and Greg Cunningham really appreciate your participation today and your insights. The next three years of life sciences, innovation, precision medicine, advanced clinical data management and beyond has been brought to you by IBM in the cube. You're a global leader in high tech coverage. And while this discussion has concluded, the conversation continues. So please take a moment to answer a few questions about today's panel on behalf of the entire IBM life sciences team and the cube decks for your time and your feedback. And we'll see you next time.

>>Well, good day and welcome back to the cube as we continue our segment featuring AWS star showcase we're with now Mike Bilodeau, who's in corporate development and operations at Kong. Mike, uh, thank you for joining us here on the cube and particularly on the startup showcase. Nice to have you and pong represented here today. Thanks for having me, John. Great to be here. You bet. All right, first off, let's just tell us about pong a little bit and, and, uh, con cadet, which I know is your, your feature program, um, or, um, service. Oh, I love the name by the way. Um, but tell us a little bit about home and then what connect is all about to? Sure. So, uh, Kong as a company really came about in the past five years, our two co-founders came over from Italy in, uh, in the late, in the late aughts, early 20 teens and, uh, had a company called Mashape. >>And so what they were looking at and what they were betting on at that time was that API APIs, uh, were going to be the future of how software was built and how developers interacted with software. And so what came from that was a piece of, uh, they were running that shape as a marketplace at the time. So connecting developers sit in for an API so they can consume them and use them to build new software. And what they found was that actually the most valuable piece of technology that they created was the backbone for running that marketplace. And that backbone is what Kong is. And so they created it to be able to handle a massive amount of traffic, a massive amount of API APIs, all simultaneously. This is a problem that a lot of enterprises have, especially now that we've started to get some microservices, uh, started to, to have more distributed technologies. >>And so what Kong is really is it's a way to manage all of those different API APIs, all of the connections between different microservices, uh, through a single platform, which is called connect. And now that we've started to have Coobernetti's, uh, the, sort of the birth and the, the nascent space of service mesh con connect allows all of those connections to be managed and to be secured and made reliable, uh, through a single platform. So what's driving this right. I mean, um, you, you mentioned micro services, um, and Coobernetti's, and that environment, which is kind of facilitating, you know, this, uh, I guess transformation you might say. Um, but what's the big driver in your opinion, in terms of, of what's pushing this microservices phenomenon, if you will, or this revolution. Sure. And when I think it starts out at, at the simple active of technology acceleration in general, um, so when you look at just the, the real shifts that have come in enterprise, uh, especially looking, you know, start with that at the cloud, but you could even go back to VMware and virtualization is it's really about allowing people to build software more rapidly. >>Um, all of these different innovations that have happened, you know, with cloud, with virtualization now with containers, Kubernetes, microservices, they're really focused on making it, uh, so that developers can build software a lot more quickly, uh, develop the, the latest and greatest in a more rapid way. >>A huge driver out of this is just making it easier for developers, for organizations to bring new technologies to market. Uh, and we see that as a kind of a key driver in a lot of these decisions that are being made. I think another piece of it that's really coming about is looking at, uh, security, uh, as a really big component, you know, do you have a huge monolithic app? Uh, it can become very challenging to actually secure that if somebody gets into kind of that initial, uh, into the, the initial ops space, they're really past the point of no return and can get access to some things that you might not want them to similar for compliance and governance reasons that becomes challenging. So I think you're seeing this combination of where people are looking at breaking things into smaller pieces, even though it does come with its own challenges around security, um, that you need to manage, it's making it so that, uh, there's less ability to just get in and cause a lot of damage kind of all at once. Often Melissa malicious attackers. >>Yeah. You bring up security. And so, yeah, to me, it's almost, in some cases it's almost counterintuitive. I think about, I've got the, if I got this model, the gap and I've got a big parameter around it, right. And I know that I can confine this thing. I can contain this. This is good. Now microservices, now I got a lot of, it's almost like a lot of villages, right. They're all around. And, and uh, I don't have the castle anymore. I've got all these villages, so I have to build walls around all these villages. Right. But you're saying that there that's actually easier to do, or at least you're more capable of doing that now as opposed to living >>Three years ago. Well, you can almost think of it, uh, as if you have this little just right, and you might, um, if you have one castle and somebody gets inside, they're going to be able to find whatever treasury may have, you know, to extend the analogy here a bit, but now it's different, uh, 50 different villages that, you know, uh, an attacker needs to look in, it starts to become really time-consuming and really difficult. And now when you're looking at, especially this idea of kind of cybersecurity, um, the ability to secure a monolithic app is typically not all that different from what you can do with a microservice or with a once you get past that initial point, instead of thinking of it, you know, I have my one wall around everything, you know, think of it almost as a series of walls where it gets more and more difficult. Again, this all depends on, uh, that you're, you're managing that security well, which can get really time-consuming more than anything else and challenging from a pure management standpoint, but from an actual security posture, it is a way of where you can strengthen it, uh, because you're, you're creating more, um, more difficult ways of accessing information for attackers, as well as just more layers potentially of security. >>But what do you do to lift that burden then from, from the customer? Because like you said, that that that's a concern they really don't want to have. Right. They want, they want you to do that. They want somebody to do that for them. So what can, what do you do to alleviate those kinds of stress >>On their systems? Yeah, it's a great question. And this is really where the idea of API management and, um, in it's in its infancy came from, was thinking about, uh, how do we extract a way these different tasks that people don't really want to do when they're managing, uh, how API, how people can interact with their API APIs, whether that be a device or another human, um, and part of that is just taking away. So what we do and what API gate management tools have always done is abstract that into a, a new piece of software. So instead of having to kind of individually develop and write code for security, for logging, for, you know, routing logic, all these different pieces of how those different APIs will communicate with each other, we're putting that into a single piece of software and we're allowing that to be done in a really easy way. >>And so what we've done now with con connect and where we've extended that to you, is making it even easier to do that at a microservices level of scale. So if you're thinking about hundreds or thousands of different microservices that you understand and be able to manage, that's what we're really building to allow people to do. And so that comes with, you know, being able to, to make it extremely easy, uh, to, to actually add policies like authentication, you know, rate-limiting, whatever it may be, as well as giving people the choice to use what they want to use. Uh, we have great partners, you know, looking at the Datadog's, the Okta's of the world who provide a pretty, pretty incredible product. We don't necessarily want to reinvent the wheel on some of these things that are already out there, and that are widely loved and accepted by, uh, technology, practitioners and developers. We just want to make it really easy to actually use those, uh, those different technologies. And so that's, that's a lot of what we're doing is providing a, a way to make it easy to add this, you know, these policies and this logic into each one of these different services. >>So w if you're providing these kinds of services, right. And, and, and, and they're, they're, they're new, right. Um, and you're merging them sometimes with kind of legacy, uh, components, um, that transition or that interaction I would assume, could be a little complex. And, and you've, you've got your work cut out for you in some regards to kind of retrofit in some respects to make this seamless, to make this smooth. So maybe shine a little light on that process in terms of not throwing all the, you know, the bath out, you know, with, with the baby, all the water here, but just making sure it all works right. And that it makes it simple and, and, um, takes away that kind of complexity that people might be facing. >>Yeah, that's really the name of the game. Uh, we, we do not believe that there is a one size fits all approach in general, to how people should build software. Uh, there are going to need instances aware of building a monolithic app. It makes the most sense. There are going to be instances where building on Kubernetes makes the most sense. Um, the key thing that we want to solve is making sure that it works and that you're able to, to make the best technical decision for your products and for your organization. And so in looking at, uh, sort of how we help to solve that problem, I think the first is that we have first class support for everything. So we support, you know, everything down to, to kind of the oldest bare metal servers to NAMS, to containers across the board. Uh, and, and we had that mindset with every product that we brought to market. >>So thinking about our service mesh offering, for instance, um, Kula is the open source project that under tens now are even, but looking at Kumo, one of the first things that we did when we brought it out, because we saw this gap in space was to make sure that that adds first-class support for and chance at the time that wasn't something that was commonly done at all. Uh, now, you know, there there's more people are moving in that direction because they do see it as a need, which is great for the space. Um, but that's something where we, we understand that the important thing is making sure your point, you said it kind of the exact way that we like to, which is it needs to be reliable. It needs work. So I have a huge estate of, you know, older applications, older, uh, you know, potentially environments, even. I might have data centers that might've cloud being, trying to do everything all at once. Isn't really a pragmatic approach. Always. It needs to be able to support the journey as you move to, to a more modern way of building. So in terms of going from on-premise to the cloud, running in a hybrid approach, whatever it may be, all of those things shouldn't be an all or nothing proposition. It should be a phase approach and moving to, to really where it makes sense for your business and for the specific problem >>Talking about cloud deployments, obviously AWS comes into play there in a major way for you guys. Um, tell me a little bit about that, about how you're leveraging that relationship and how you're partnering with them, and then bringing the, the value then to your customer base and kind of how long that's been going on and the kinds of work that you guys are doing together, uh, ultimately to provide this kind of, uh, exemplary product or at least options to your customers. >>Yeah, of course. I think the way that we're doing it first and foremost is that, um, we, we know exactly who AWS is and the space and, and, you know, a great number of our customers are running on AWS. So again, I think that first class support in general for AWS environments services, uh, both from the container service, their, their Kubernetes services, everything that they can have and that they offer to their customers, we want to be able to support, uh, one of the first areas of really that comes to mind in terms of first-class integration and support is thinking about Lambda and serverless. Um, so at the time when we first came out, was that, again, it was early for us, uh, or early in our journey as product and as company, uh, but really early for the space. And so how we were able to support that and how we were able to see, uh, that it could support our vision and, and what we wanted to bring as a value proposition to the market has been, you know, really powerful. So I think in looking at, you know, how we work with AWS, certainly on a partnership level of where we share a lot of the same customers, we share a very similar ethos and wanting to help people do things in the most cost-effective rapid manner possible, and to build the best software. Uh, and, you know, I mean, for us, we have a little bit of a backstory with AWS because Jeffrey's us was a, an early investor in, in common. >>Yeah, exactly. I mean, the, the whole memo that he wrote about, uh, you know, build an API or you're fired was, was certainly an inspiration to, to us and it catalyzed, uh, so much change in, in the technology landscape in general, about how everyone viewed API APIs about building a software that could be reused and, and was composable. And so that's something that, you know, we, we look at, uh, kind of carrying forward and we've been building on that momentum ever since. So, >>Well, I mean, it's just kind of take a, again, a high level, look at this in terms of microservices. And now that it's changing in terms of cloud connectivity. Thank you. Actually, I have a graphic to that. Maybe we can pull up and take a look at this and let's talk about this evolution. You know, what's occurring here a little bit, and, and as we take a look at this, um, tell us what you think those, these impacts are at the end of the day for your customers and how they're better able to provide their services and satisfy their customer needs. >>Absolutely. So this is really the heart of the connect platform and of our vision in general. Um, we'd spoken just a minute ago about thinking how we can support the entire journey or, uh, the, the enterprise reality that is managing a, a relatively complex environment of modelists different services, microservices, you know, circle assumptions, whatever it may be, uh, as well as lots of different deployment methods and underlying tech platforms. You know, if you have, uh, virtual machines and Kubernetes, whatever, again, whatever it may be. But what we look at is just the different sort of, uh, design patterns that can occur in thinking about a monolithic application. And, um, okay. Mainly that's an edge concern of thinking about how you're going to handle connectivity coming in from the edge and looking at a Kubernetes environment of where you're going to have, you know, many Kubernetes clusters that need to be able to communicate with each other. >>That's where we start to think about, uh, our ingress products and Kubernetes ingress that allows for that cross applic, uh, across application communication. And then within the application itself, and looking at service mesh, which we talked a little bit about of just how do I make sure that I can instrument and secure every transaction that's happening in a, a truly microservices, uh, deployment within Kubernetes or outside of it? How do I make sure that that's reliable and secure? And so what we look at is this is just a, uh, part of it is evolution. And part of it is going to be figuring out what works best when it, um, certainly if you're, if you're building something from scratch, it doesn't always make sense to build it, your MDP, as, you know, microservices running on Kubernetes. It probably makes sense to go with the shortest path, uh, at the same time, if you're trying to run it at massive scale and big applications and make sure they're as reliable as possible, it very well does make sense to spend the time and the effort to, to make humanize work well for you. >>And I think that's, that's the, the beauty of, of how the space is shifting is that, uh, it's, it's going towards a way of the most practical solution to get towards business value, to, to move software quicker, to give customers the value that they want to delight them to use. Amazon's, uh, you know, phrase ology, if that's, uh, if that's a word, uh, it's, it's something of where, you know, that is becoming more and more standard practice versus just trying to make sure that you're doing the, the latest and greatest for the sake of, of, uh, of doing it. >>So we've been talking about customers in, in rather generic terms in terms of what you're providing them. We talked about new surfaces that are certainly, uh, providing added value and providing them solutions to their problems. Can you give us maybe just a couple of examples of some real life success stories, where, where you've had some success in terms of, of providing services that, um, I assume, um, people needed, or at least maybe they didn't know they needed until, uh, you, you provided that kind of development that, but give us an idea of maybe just, uh, shine, a little light on some success that you've had so that people at home watching this can perhaps relate to that experience and maybe give them a reason to think a little more about calm. >>Yeah, absolutely. Uh, there, there's a number that come to mind, but certainly one of the customers that I spent a lot of time with, uh, you know, become almost friends would be with, uh, with the different, with a couple of the practitioners who work there is company called Cargill. Uh, it's a shared one with us and AWS, you know, it's one we've written about in the past, but this is one of the largest companies in the world. Um, and, uh, the, the way that they describe it is, is that if you've ever eaten a Vic muffin or eaten from McDonald's and had breakfast there, you you've used a Cargill service because they provide so much of the, the food supply chain business and the logistics for it. They had a, uh, it's a, it's an old, you know, it's a century and a half old company. >>It has a really story kind of legacy, and it's grown to be an extremely large company that's so private. Uh, but you know, they have some of the most unique challenges. I think that I've, I've seen in the space in terms of needing to be able to ensure, uh, that they're able to, to kind of move quickly and build a lot of new services and software that touch so many different spaces. So they were, uh, the challenge that was put in front of them was looking at really modernizing, you know, again, a century and a half old company modernizing their entire tech stack. And, you know, we're certainly not all of that in any way, shape or form, but we are something that can help that process quite a bit. And so, as they were migrating to AWS, as they were looking at, you know, creating a CICB process for, for really being able to ship and deploy new software as quickly as possible as they were looking at how they could distribute the, the new API APIs and services that they were building, we were helping them with every piece of that journey, um, by being able to, to make sure that the services that they deployed, uh, performed in the way that they expected them to, we're able to give them a lot of competence and being able to move, uh, more rapidly and move a lot of software over from these tried and true, uh, you know, older or more legacy of doing things to a much more cloud native built as they were looking at using Kubernetes in AWS and, and being able to support that handle scale. >>Again, we are something that was able to, to kind of bridge that gap and make sure that there weren't going to be disruptions. So there, there are a lot of kind of great reasons of why they're their numbers really speak for themselves in terms of how, uh, how much velocity they were able to get. You know, they saying them saying them out loud on the sense fake in some cases, um, because they were able to, you know, I think like something, something around the order of 20 X, the amount of new API APIs and services that they were building over a six month period, really kind of crazy crazy numbers. Um, but it is something where, you know, the, for us, we, we got a lot out of them because they were open source users. So calling is first and foremost, an open source company. >>And so they were helping us before they even became paying customers, uh, just by testing the software and providing feedback, really putting it through its paces and using it at a scale that's really hard to replicate, you know, the scale of a, uh, a couple of hundred thousand person company, right? Yeah. Talking about a win-win yeah. That worked out well. It's certainly the proof is in the pudding and I'm sure that's just one of many examples of success that you've had. Uh, we appreciate the time here and certainly the insights and wish you well on down the road. Thanks for joining us, Mike. Thanks, Sean. Thanks for having me. I've been speaking with Mike Villa from Kong. He is in corporate development and operations there on John Walls, and you're watching on the cube, the AWS startup showcase.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting innovation for good, brought to you by on shape. >>Hello, everyone, and welcome to Innovation for Good Program, hosted by the Cuban. Brought to You by on Shape, which is a PTC company. My name is Dave Valentin. I'm coming to you from our studios outside of Boston. I'll be directing the conversations today. It's a very exciting, all live program. We're gonna look at how product innovation has evolved, where it's going and how engineers, entrepreneurs and educators are applying cutting edge, cutting edge product development techniques and technology to change our world. You know, the pandemic is, of course, profoundly impacted society and altered how individuals and organizations they're gonna be thinking about and approaching the coming decade. Leading technologists, engineers, product developers and educators have responded to the new challenges that we're facing from creating lifesaving products to helping students learn from home toe how to apply the latest product development techniques and solve the world's hardest problems. And in this program, you'll hear from some of the world's leading experts and practitioners on how product development and continuous innovation has evolved, how it's being applied toe positive, positively affect society and importantly where it's going in the coming decades. So let's get started with our first session fueling Tech for good. And with me is John Herstek, who is the president of the Suffers, a service division of PTC, which required on shape just over a year ago, where John was the CEO and co founder. And Dana Grayson is here. She is the co founder and general partner at Construct Capital, a new venture capital firm. Folks, welcome to the program. Thanks so much for coming on. Great >>to be here, Dave. >>All right, John. You're very welcome. Dana. Look, John, let's get into it for first. A belated congratulations on the acquisition of Von Shape. That was an awesome seven year journey for your company. Tell our audience a little bit about the story of on shape, but take us back to Day zero. Why did you and your co founders start on shape? Well, >>actually, start before on shaping the You know, David, I've been in this business for almost 40 years. The business of building software tools for product developers and I had been part of some previous products in the industry and companies that had been in their era. Big changes in this market and about, you know, a little Before founding on shape, we started to see the problems product development teams were having with the traditional tools of that era years ago, and we saw the opportunity presented by Cloud Web and Mobile Technology. And we said, Hey, we could use Cloud Web and Mobile to solve the problems of product developers make their Their business is run better. But we have to build an entirely new system, an entirely new company, to do it. And that's what on shapes about. >>Well, so notwithstanding the challenges of co vid and difficulties this year, how is the first year been as, Ah, division of PTC for you guys? How's business? Anything you can share with us? >>Yeah, our first year of PTC has been awesome. It's been, you know, when you get acquired, Dave, you never You know, you have great optimism, but you never know what life will really be like. It's sort of like getting married or something, you know, until you're really doing it, you don't know. And so I'm happy to say that one year into our acquisition, a TPI TC on shape is thriving. It's worked out better than I could have imagined a year ago. Along always, I mean sales are up. In Q four, our new sales rate grew 80% vs Excuse me, our fiscal Q four Q three. In the calendar year, it grew 80% compared to the year before. Our educational uses skyrocketing with around 400% growth, most recently year to year of students and teachers and co vid. And we've launched a major cloud platform using the core of on shape technology called Atlas. So, um, just tons of exciting things going on a TTC. >>That's awesome. But thank you for sharing some of those metrics. And of course, you're very humble individual. You know, people should know a little bit more about you mentioned, you know, we founded solid works, go founded solid, where I actually found it solid works. You had a great exit in the late nineties. But what I really appreciate is, you know, you're an entrepreneur. You've got a passion for the babies that you helped birth. You stayed with the salt systems for a number of years. The company that quiet, solid works well over a decade. And and, of course, you and I have talked about how you participated in the M I t blackjack team. You know, back in the day a Z I say you're very understated, for somebody was so accomplished. So well, >>that's kind of you. But I tend to I tend Thio always keep my eye more on what's ahead. You know what's next then? And you know, I look back Sure to enjoy it and learn from it about what I can put toe work, making new memories, making new successes. >>I love it. Okay, let's bring Dana into the conversation. Hello, Dana. And you Look, you were fairly early investor in on shape when you were with any A. And I think it was like it was a Siri's B. But it was very right close after the A raise. And and you were and still are a big believer in industrial transformation. So take us back. What did you see about on shape back then? That that excited you? >>Thanks. Thanks for that. Yeah. I was lucky to be a early investment in shape. You know, the things that actually attracted me. Don shape were largely around John and, uh, the team. They're really setting out to do something, as John says humbly, something totally new, but really building off of their background was a large part of it. Um, but, you know, I was really intrigued by the design collaboration side of the product. Um, I would say that's frankly what originally attracted me to it. What kept me in the room, you know, in terms of the industrial world was seeing just if you start with collaboration around design what that does to the overall industrial product lifecycle accelerating manufacturing just, you know, modernizing, manufacturing, just starting with design. So I'm really thankful to the on shape guys, because it was one of the first investments I've made that turned me on to the whole sector. And, wow, just such a great pleasure to work with with John and the whole team there. Now see what they're doing inside PTC, >>and you just launched construct capital this year, right in the middle of a pandemic and which is awesome. I love it. And you're focused on early stage investing. Maybe tell us a little bit about construct capital. What? Your investment thesis is and you know, one of the big waves that you're hoping to ride. >>Sure, it construct it is literally lifting out of any what I was doing there, um uh, you're on shape. I went on to invest in companies such as desktop metal and Tulip, to name a couple of them form labs, another one in and around the manufacturing space. But our thesis it construct is broader than just, you know, manufacturing and industrial. It really incorporates all of what we'd call foundational industries that have let yet to be fully tech enabled or digitized. Manufacturing is a big piece of it. Supply chain, logistics, transportation and mobility or not, or other big pieces of it. And together they really drive, you know, half of the GDP in the US and have been very under invested. And frankly, they haven't attracted really great founders like Iran in droves. And I think that's going to change. We're seeing, um, entrepreneurs coming out of the tech world or staggolee into these industries and then bringing them back into the tech world, which is which is something that needs to happen. So John and team were certainly early pioneers and I think, you know, frankly, obviously, that voting with my feet that the next set, a really strong companies are going to come out of this space over the next decade. >>I think there's a huge opportunity to digitize the sort of traditionally non digital organizations. But Dana, you focused. I think it's it's accurate to say you're focused on even Mawr early stage investing now. And I want to understand why you feel it's important to be early. I mean, it's obviously riskier and reward e er, but what do you look for in companies and and founders like John >>Mhm, Um, you know, I think they're different styles of investing all the way up to public market investing. I've always been early stage investors, so I like to work with founders and teams when they're, you know, just starting out. Um, I happened to also think that we were just really early in the whole digital transformation of this world. You know, John and team have been, you know, back from solid works, etcetera around the space for a long time. But again, the downstream impact of what they're doing really changes the whole industry and and so we're pretty early and in digitally transforming that market. Um, so that's another reason why I wanna invest early now, because I do really firmly believe that the next set of strong companies and strong returns for my own investors will be in the spaces. Um, you know, what I look for in Founders are people that really see the world in a different way. And, you know, sometimes some people think of founders or entrepreneurs is being very risk seeking. You know, if you asked John probably and another successful entrepreneurs, they would call themselves sort of risk averse, because by the time they start the company, they really have isolated all the risk out of it and think that they have given their expertise or what they're seeing their just so compelled to go change something, eh? So I look for that type of attitude experience a Z. You can also tell from John. He's fairly humble. So humility and just focus is also really important. Um, that there's a that's a lot of it. Frankly, >>excellent. Thank you. And John, you got such a rich history in the space in one of you could sort of connect the dots over time. I mean, when you look back, what were the major forces that you saw in the market in in the early days? Uh, particularly days of on shape on how is that evolved? And what are you seeing today? Well, I >>think I touched on it earlier. Actually, could I just reflect on what Dana said about risk taking for just a quick one and say, throughout my life, from blackjack to starting solid works on shape, it's about taking calculated risks. Yes, you try to eliminate the risk sa's much as you can, but I always say, I don't mind taking a risk that I'm aware of, and I've calculated through as best I can. I don't like taking risks that I don't know I'm taking. >>That's right. You like to bet on >>sure things as much sure things, or at least where you feel you. You've done the research and you see them and you know they're there and you know, you, you you keep that in mind in the room, and I think that's great. And Dana did so much for us. Dana, I want to thank you again for all that you did it every step of the way from where we started. Thio, Thio You know your journey with us ended formally but continues informally. Now back to you. Um, Dave, I think question about the opportunity and how it's shaped up. Well, I think I touched on it earlier when I said It's about helping product developers. You know, our customers of the people build the future of manufactured goods. Anything you think of that would be manufacturing factory. You know, the chair you're sitting in machine that made your coffee. You know, the computer you're using that trucks that drive by on the street, all the covert product research, the equipment being used to make vaccines. All that stuff is designed by someone, and our job is given the tools to do it better. And I could see the problems that those product developers had that we're slowing them down with using the computing systems of the time. When we built solid works, that was almost 30 years ago. People don't realize that it was in the early >>nineties, and, you know, we did the >>best we could for the early nineties, but what we did, we didn't anticipate the world of today. And so people were having problems with just installing the systems. Dave, you wouldn't believe how hard it is to install these systems. You need a spec up a special windows computer, you know, and make sure you've got all the memory and graphics you need and getting to get that set up. You need to make sure the device drivers air, right, install a big piece of software. Ah, license key. I'm not making this up. They're still around. You may not even know what those are. You know, Dennis laughing because, you know, zero cool people do things like this anymore on but only runs some windows. You want a second user to use it? They need a copy. They need a code. Are they on the same version? It's a nightmare. The teams change. You know? You just say, Well, get everyone on the software. Well, who's everyone? You know? You got a new vendor today? A new customer tomorrow, a new employee. People come on and off the team. The other problem is the data stored in files, thousands of files. This isn't like a spreadsheet or word processor where there's one file to pass around these air thousands of files to make one, even a simple product. People were tearing their hair out. John, what do we do? I've got copies everywhere. I don't know where the latest version is. We tried like, you know, locking people out so that only one person can change it at the time that works against speed. It works against innovation. We saw what was happening with Cloud Web and mobile. So what's happened in the years since is every one of the forces that product developers experience the need for speed, the need for innovation, the need to be more efficient with their people in their capital. Resource is every one of those trends have been amplified since we started on shape by a lot of forces in the world. And covert is amplified all those the need for agility and remote work cove it is amplified all that the same time, The acceptance of cloud. You know, a few years ago, people were like cloud, you know, how is that gonna work now They're saying to me, you know, increasingly, how would you ever even have done this without the cloud? How do you make solid works Work without the cloud? How would that even happen? You know, And once people understand what on shapes about >>and we're the >>Onley full SAS solution software as a service, full SAS solution in our industry. So what's happened in those years? Same problems we saw earlier, but turn up the gain, their bigger problems. And with cloud, we've seen skepticism of years ago turn into acceptance. And now even embracement in the cova driven new normal. >>Yeah. So a lot of friction in the previous environments cloud obviously a huge factor on, I guess. I guess Dana John could see it coming, you know, in the early days of solid works with Salesforce, which is kind of the first major independent SAS player. Well, I guess that was late nineties. So it was post solid works, but pre in shape and their work day was, you know, pre on shape in the mid two thousands. And and but But, you know, the bet was on the SAS model was right for Crick had and and product development, you know, which Maybe the time wasn't a no brainer. Or maybe it was I don't know, but Dana is there. Is there anything that you would invest in today that's not Cloud based? >>Um, that's a great question. I mean, I think we still see things all the time in the manufacturing world that are not cloud based. I think you know, the closer you get to the shop floor in the production environment. Um, e think John and the PTC folks would agree with this, too, but that it's, you know, there's reliability requirements. There's performance requirements. There's still this attitude of, you know, don't touch the printing press. So the cloud is still a little bit scary sometimes. And I think hybrid cloud is a real thing for those or on premise. Solutions, in some cases is still a real thing. What, what were more focused on. And, um, despite whether it's on premise or hybrid or or SAS and Cloud is a frictionless go to market model, um, in the companies we invest in so sass and cloud, or really make that easy to adopt for new users, you know, you sign up, start using a product, um, but whether it's hosted in the cloud, whether it's as you can still distribute buying power. And, um, I would I'm just encouraging customers in the customer world and the more industrial environment to entrust some of their lower level engineers with more budget discretionary spending so they can try more products and unlock innovation. >>Right? The unit economics are so compelling. So let's bring it, you know, toe today's you know, situation. John, you decided to exit about a year ago. You know? What did you see in PTC? Other than the obvious money? What was the strategic fit? >>Yeah, Well, David, I wanna be clear. I didn't exit anything. Really? You >>know, I love you and I don't like that term exit. I >>mean, Dana had exit is a shareholder on and so it's not It's not exit for me. It's just a step in the journey. Um, what we saw in PTC was a partner. First of all, that shared our vision from the top down at PTC. Jim Hempleman, the CEO. He had a great vision for for the impact that SAS can make based on cloud technology. And really is Dana of highlighted so much. It's not just the technology is how you go to market and the whole business being run and how you support and make the customers successful. So Jim shared a vision for the potential. And really, really, um said Hey, come join us and we can do this bigger, Better, faster. We expanded the vision really to include this Atlas platform for hosting other SAS applications. That P D. C. I mean, David Day arrived at PTC. I met the head of the academic program. He came over to me and I said, You know, and and how many people on your team? I thought he'd say 5 40 people on the PTC academic team. It was amazing to me because, you know, we were we were just near about 100 people were required are total company. We didn't even have a dedicated academic team and we had ah, lot of students signing up, you know, thousands and thousands. Well, now we have hundreds of thousands of students were approaching a million users, and that shows you the power of this team that PTC had combined with our product and technology whom you get a big success for us and for the teachers and students to the world. We're giving them great tools. So so many good things were also putting some PTC technology from other parts of PTC back into on shape. One area, a little spoiler, little sneak peek. Working on taking generative design. Dana knows all about generative design. We couldn't acquire that technology were start up, you know, just to too much to do. But PTC owns one of the best in the business. This frustrated technology we're working on putting that into on shaping our customers. Um, will be happy to see it, hopefully in the coming year sometime. >>It's great to see that two way exchange. Now, you both know very well when you start a company, of course, a very exciting time. You know, a lot of baggage, you know, our customers pulling you in a lot of different directions and asking you for specials. You have this kind of clean slate, so to speak in it. I would think in many ways, John, despite you know, your install base, you have a bit of that dynamic occurring today especially, you know, driven by the forced march to digital transformation that cove it caused. So when you sit down with the team PTC and talk strategy, you now have more global resource is you got cohorts selling opportunities. What's the conversation like in terms of where you want to take the division? >>Well, Dave, you actually you sounds like we should have you coming in and talking about strategy because you've got the strategy down. I mean, we're doing everything said global expansion were able to reach across selling. We've got some excellent PTC customers that we can reach reach now and they're finding uses for on shape. I think the plan is to, you know, just go, go, go and grow, grow, grow where we're looking for this year, priorities are expand the product. I mentioned the breath of the product with new things PTC did recently. Another technology that they acquired for on shape. We did an acquisition. It was it was small, wasn't widely announced. It, um, in an area related to interfacing with electrical cad systems. So? So we're doing We're expanding the breath of on shape. We're going Maura. Depth in the areas were already in. We have enormous opportunity. Add more features and functions that's in the product. Go to market. You mentioned it global global presence. That's something we were a little light on a year ago. Now we have a team. Dana may not even know what we have a non shape, dedicated team in Barcelona, based in Barcelona but throughout Europe were doing multiple languages. Um, the academic program just introduced a new product into that space. That's that's even fueling more success and growth there, Um, and of course, continuing to to invest in customer success. And this Atlas platform story I keep mentioning, we're going to soon have We're gonna soon have four other major PTC brands shipping products on our Atlas Saas platform. And so we're really excited about that. That's good for the other PTC products. It's also good for on shape because now there's there's. There's other interesting products that are on shape customers can use take advantage of very easily using, say, a common log in conventions about user experience there used to invest of all their SAS based, so they that makes it easier to begin with. So that's some of the exciting things going on. I think you'll see P. D. C. Um expanding our lead in saas based applications for this sector for our target sectors, not just in in cat and data management. But another area, PTC's Big and his augmented reality with of euphoria, product line leader and industrial uses of a R. That's a whole other story we should do. A whole nother show augmented reality. But these products are amazing. You can You can help factory workers people on, uh, people who are left out of the digital transformation. Sometimes we're standing from machine >>all day. >>They can't be sitting like we are doing Zoom. They could wear a R headset in our tools. Let them create great content. This is an area Dana is invested in in other companies, but what I wanted to note is the new releases of our authoring software. For this, our content getting released this month, used through the Atlas platform, the SAS components of on shape for things like revision management and collaboration on duh workflow activity. All that those are tools that we're able to share leverage. We get a lot of synergy. It's just really good. It's really fun to We'll have a good time, >>that's awesome. And then we're gonna be talking to John MacLean later about Atlas and do a little deeper dive on that. And, Dana, what is your involvement today with with on shape? But you're looking for you know, which of their customers air actually adopting, and they're gonna disrupt their industries. You get good pipeline from that. How do you collaborate today? >>That sounds like a great idea. Um, a Z John will tell you I'm constantly just ask him for advice and impressions of other entrepreneurs and picking his brain on ideas. No formal relationship clearly, but continue to count John and and John and other people in on shaping in the circle of experts that I rely on for their opinions. >>All right, so we have some questions from the crowd here. Uh, one of the questions is for the dream team. You know, John and Dana. What's your next next collective venture? I don't think we're there yet, are we? No. I >>just say, as Dana said, we love talking to her about. You know, Dana, you just returned the compliment. We would try and give you advice and the deals you're looking at, and I'm sort of casually mentoring at least one of your portfolio entrepreneurs, and that's been a lot of fun for May on hopefully a value to them. But also Dana, We uran important pipeline to us in the world of some new things that are happening that we wouldn't see if you know you've shown us some things that you've said. What do you think of this business? And for us, it's like, Wow, it's cool to see that's going on And that's what's supposed to work in an ecosystem like this. So we we deeply value the ongoing relationship. And no, we're not starting something new. I got a lot of work left to do with what I'm doing and really happy. But we can We can collaborate in this way on other ventures. >>I like this question to somebody asking with the cloud options like on shape, Wilmore students have stem opportunities s Oh, that's a great question. Are you because of sass and cloud? Are you able to reach? You know, more students? Much more cost effectively. >>Yeah, Dave, I'm so glad that that that I was asked about this because Yes, and it's extremely gratifying us. Yes, we are because of cloud, because on shape is the only full cloud full SAS system. Our industry were able to reach stem education brings able to be part of bringing step education to students who couldn't get it otherwise. And one of most gratifying gratifying things to me is the emails were getting from teachers, um, that that really, um, on the phone calls that were they really pour their heart out and say We're able to get to students in areas that have very limited compute resource is that don't have an I T staff where they don't know what computer that the students can have at home, and they probably don't even have a computer. We're talking about being able to teach them on a phone to have an android phone a low end android phone. You could do three D modeling on there with on shape. Now you can't do it any other system, but with on shape, you could do it. And so the teacher can say to the students, They have to have Internet access, and I know there's a huge community that doesn't even have Internet access, and we're not able, unfortunately to help that. But if you have Internet and you have even an android phone, we can enable the educator to teach them. And so we have case after case of saving a stem program or expanding it into the students that need it most is the ones we're helping here. So really excited about that. And we're also able to let in addition to the run on run on whatever computing devices they have, we also offer them the tools they need for remote teaching with a much richer experience. You know, could you teach solid works remotely? Well, maybe if the student ran it had a windows workstation, you know, big, big, high and workstation. Maybe it could, but it would be like the difference between collaborating with on shape and collaborate with solid works. Like the difference between a zoom video call and talking on the landline phone. You know, it's a much richer experience, and that's what you need in stem teaching. Stem is hard. So, yeah, we're super super excited about bringing stem to more students because of clouds. >>Yeah, we're talking about innovation for good, and then the discussion, John, you just had it. Really? There could be a whole another vector here. We could discuss on diversity, and I wanna end with just pointing out So, Dana, your new firm. It's a woman led firm, too. Two women leaders, you know, going forward. So that's awesome to see, so really? Yeah, thumbs up on that. Congratulations on getting that off the ground. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. So thank you guys. Really appreciate It was a great discussion. I learned a lot, and I'm sure the audience did a swell in a moment. We're gonna talk with on shape customers to see how they're applying tech for good and some of the products that they're building. So keep it right there. I'm Dave Volonte. You're watching innovation for good on the Cube, the global leader in digital tech event coverage. Stay right there. Yeah.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting innovation for good. Brought to you by on shape. >>Okay, we're back. This is Dave Volonte and you're watching innovation for good. A program on Cuba 3 65 made possible by on shape of BTC company. We're live today really live TV, which is the heritage of the Cuban. Now we're gonna go to the sources and talkto on shape customers to find out how they're applying technology to create real world innovations that are changing the world. So let me introduce our panel members. Rafael Gomez Fribourg is with the Chan Zuckerberg bio hub. A very big idea. And collaborative nonprofit was initiative that was funded by Mark Zuckerberg and his wife, Priscilla Chan, and really around diagnosing and curing and better managing infectious diseases. So really timely topic. Philip Tabor is also joining us. He's with silver side detectors which develops neutron detective detection systems. Yet you want to know if early if neutrons and radiation or in places where you don't want them, so this should be really interesting. And last but not least, Matthew Shields is with the Charlottesville schools and is gonna educate us on how he and his team are educating students in the use of modern engineering tools and techniques. Gentlemen, welcome to the Cuban to the program. This should be really interesting. Thanks for coming on. >>Hi. Or pleasure >>for having us. >>You're very welcome. Okay, let me ask each of you because you're all doing such interesting and compelling work. Let's start with Rafael. Tell us more about the bio hub and your role there, please. >>Okay. Yes. As you said, the Bio Hope is a nonprofit research institution, um, funded by Mark Zuckerberg and his wife, Priscilla Chan. Um and our main mission is to develop new technologies to help advance medicine and help, hopefully cure and manage diseases. Um, we also have very close collaborations with Universe California, San Francisco, Stanford University and the University California Berkeley on. We tried to bring those universities together, so they collaborate more of biomedical topics. And I manage a team of engineers in by joining platform. Um, and we're tasked with creating instruments for the laboratory to help the scientist boats inside the organization and also in the partner universities do their experiments in better ways in ways that they couldn't do before >>in this edition was launched five years ago. It >>was announced at the end of 2016, and we actually started operations in the beginning of 2017, which is when I joined um, so this is our third year. >>And how's how's it going? How does it work? I mean, these things >>take time. It's been a fantastic experience. Uh, the organization works beautifully. Um, it was amazing to see it grow from the beginning. I was employee number 12, I think eso When I came in, it was just a nem p off his building and MP labs. And very quickly we had something running about from anything. Eso I'm very proud of the work that we have done to make that possible. Um And then, of course, that's you mentioned now, with co vid, um, we've been able to do a lot of very cool work, um, very being of the pandemic In March, when there was a deficit of testing, uh, capacity in California, we spun up a testing laboratory in record time in about a week. It was crazy. It was a crazy project. Um, but but incredibly satisfying. And we ended up running all the way until the beginning of November, when the lab was finally shut down, we could process about 3000 samples a day. I think at the end of it all, we were able to test about 100 on the road, 150,000 samples from all over the state. We were providing free testing toe all of the Department of Public Health Department of Public Health in California, which, at the media pandemic, had no way to do testing affordably and fast. So I think that was a great service to the state. Now the state has created a testing system that will serve those departments. So then we decided that it was unnecessary to keep going with testing in the other biopsy that would shut down, >>right? Thank you for that. Now, Now, Philip, you What you do is mind melting. You basically helped keep the world safe. Maybe you describe a little bit more about silver side detectors and what your role is there and how it all works. >>Tour. So we make a nuclear bomb detectors and we also make water detectors. So we try and do our part. Thio Keep the world from blowing up and make it a better place at the same time. Both of these applications use neutron radiation detectors. That's what we make. Put them out by a port border crossing Places like that they can help make sure that people aren't smuggling, shall we say, very bad things. Um, there's also a burgeoning field of research and application where you can use neutrons with some pretty cool physics to find water so you can do things like but a detector up in the mountains and measure snowpack. Put it out in the middle of the field and measure soil moisture content. And as you might imagine, there's some really cool applications in, uh, research and agronomy and public policy for this. >>All right, so it's OK, so it's It's much more than you know, whatever fighting terrorism, it's there's a riel edge, or I kind of i o t application for what you guys do. >>You do both Zito shares. You might >>say a mat. I I look at your role is kind of scaling the brain power for for the future. Maybe tell us more about Charlottesville schools and in the mission that you're pursuing and what you do. >>Thank you. Um, I've been in Charlottesville city schools for about 11 or 12 years. I started their teaching, Um, a handful of classes, math and science and things like that. But Thescore board and my administration had the crazy idea of starting an engineering program about seven years ago. My background is an engineering is an engineering. My masters is in mechanical and aerospace engineering. And, um, I basically spent a summer kind of coming up with what might be a fun engineering curriculum for our students. And it started with just me and 30 students about seven years ago, Um, kind of a home spun from scratch curriculum. One of my goals from the outside was to be a completely project based curriculum, and it's now grown. We probably have about six or 700 students, five or six full time teachers. We now have pre engineering going on at the 5th and 6th grade level. I now have students graduating. Uh, you know, graduating after senior year with, like, seven years of engineering under their belt and heading off to doing some pretty cool stuff. So it's It's been a lot of fun building up a program and, um, and learning a lot in the process. >>That's awesome. I mean, you know, Cuba's. We've been passionate about things like women in tech, uh, diversity stem. You know, not only do we need more more students in stem, we need mawr underrepresented women, minorities, etcetera. We were just talking to John her stock and integrate Grayson about this is do you do you feel is though you're I mean, first of all, the work that you do is awesome, but but I'll go one step further. Do you feel as though it's reaching, um, or, you know, diverse base and And how is that going? >>That's a great question. I think research shows that a lot of people get funneled into one kind of track or career path or set of interests really early on in their educational career. And sometimes that that funnels kind of artificial. And so that's one of the reasons we keep pushing back. Um, so our school systems introducing kindergartners to programming on DSO. We're trying to push back how we expose students to engineering and to stem fields as early as possible, and we've definitely seen the fruits of that in my program. In fact, my engineering program, uh, sprung out of an after school in Extracurricular Science Club that actually three girls started at our school. So I think that actually has helped that three girls started the club That eventually is what led our engineering programs that sort of baked into the DNA and also are a big public school. And we have about 50% of the students are under the poverty line, and we should I mean, Charlottesville, which is a big refugee town. And so I've been adamant from Day one that there are no barriers to entry into the program. There's no test you have to take. You don't have to have be taking a certain level of math or anything like that. That's been a lot of fun. To have a really diverse set of kids and or the program and be successful, >>that's phenomenal. That's great to hear. So, Philip, I wanna come back to you. You know, I think about maybe some day we'll be able to go back to a sporting events, and I know when I when I'm in there, there's somebody up on the roof looking out for me, you know, watching the crowd. And they have my back. And I think in many ways, the products that you build, you know, our similar I may not know they're there, but they're keeping us safe or they're measuring things that that that I don't necessarily see. But I wonder if you could talk about a little bit more detail about the products you build and how they're impacting society. >>Sure, So there are certainly a lot of people who are who are watching, trying to make sure things were going well in keeping you safe that you may or may not be aware of. And we try and support ah lot of them. So we have detectors that are that are deployed in a variety of variety of uses with a number of agencies and governments that dio like I was saying, ports and border crossing some other interesting applications that are looking for looking for signals that should not be there and working closely to fit into the operations these folks do Onda. We also have ah lot of outreach to researchers and scientists trying to help them support the work they're doing, um, using neutron detection for soil moisture monitoring is a some really cool opportunities for doing it at large scale and with much less, um, expense or complication then would have been done previous technologies. Mhm. You know, they were talking about collaboration in the previous segment. We've been able to join a number of conferences for that, virtually including one that was supposed to be held in Boston. But another one that was held, uh, of the University of Heidelberg in Germany. And, uh, this is sort of things that in some ways, the pandemic is pushing people towards greater collaboration than there would have been able to do. Had it all but in person. >>Yeah, we did. Uh, the cube did live works a couple years ago in Boston. It was awesome show. And I think, you know, with this whole trend toward digit, I call it the forced march to digital. Thanks to cove it I think that's just gonna continue. Thio grow Raphael one. If you could describe the process that you used to better understand diseases and what's your organization's involvement? Been in more detail, addressing the cove in pandemic. >>Um, so so we have the bio be structured in, Um um, in a way that foster So the combination of technology and science. So we have to scientific tracks, one about infectious diseases and the other one about understanding just basic human biology how the human body functions and especially how the cells in the human body function on how they're organized to create teachers in the body. Um, and then it has the set of platforms. Um, mind is one of them by engineering that are all technology. Read it. So we have data science platform, all about data analysis, machine learning, things like that. Um, we have a mass spectrometry platform is all about mass spectrometry technologies to, um, exploit those ones in service for the scientists on. We have a genomics platform. That is all about sequencing DNA in our DNA. Um, and then an advanced microscopy. It's all about developing technologies, uh, to look at things with advanced microscopes and the little technologies to marry computation on microscope. So, um, the scientists said the agenda and the platforms we just serve their needs, support their needs, and hopefully develop technologies that help them do their experiments better, faster, or allow them to the experiment that they couldn't do in any other way before. Um And so with cove, it because we have that very strong group of scientists that work on. I have been working on infectious disease before, and especially in viruses, we've been able to very quickly pivot to working on that s O, for example, my team was able to build pretty quickly a machine to automatically purified proteins, and it's being used to purify all these different important proteins in the cove. It virus the SARS cov to virus on Dwyer, sending some of those purified proteins all over the world. Two scientists that are researching the virus and trying to figure out how to develop vaccines, understand how the virus affects the body and all that. So some of the machines we built are having a very direct impact on this. Um, Also for the copy testing lab, we were able to very quickly develop some very simple machines that allowed the lab to function sort of faster and more efficiently. Sort of had a little bit of automation in places where we couldn't find commercial machines that would do it. >>Um, God s o mat. I mean, you gotta be listening to this in thinking about, Okay? Some. Someday your students are gonna be working at organizations like Like like Bio Hub and Silver Side. And you know, a lot of young people that just have I don't know about you guys, but like my kids, they're really passionate about changing the world. You know, there's way more important than, you know, the financial angles and that z e I gotta believe you're seeing that you're right in the front lines there. >>Really? Um, in fact, when I started the curriculum six or seven years ago, one of the first bits of feedback I got from my students is they said Okay, this is a lot of fun. So I had my students designing projects and programming microcontrollers raspberry, PiS and order We nose and things like that. The first bit of feedback I got from students was they said Okay, when do we get to impact the world? I've heard engineering is about making the world a better place, and robots are fun and all, but, you know, where is the real impact? And so, um do Yeah, thanks to the guidance of my students, I'm baking that Maurin. Now I'm like Day one of engineering one. We talk about how the things that the tools they're learning and the skills they're gaining eventually you know, very soon could be could be used to make the world a better place. >>You know, we all probably heard that famous line By Jeff Hammond Barker. The greatest minds of my generation are trying to figure out how to get people to click on ads. E. I think we're really generally generationally finally, at the point where you know young students and engineering and really you know it passionate about affecting society. I wanna get into the product, you know, side and understand how each of you are using on shape and and the value that that it brings. Maybe Raphael, you could start how long you've been using it. You know, what's your experience with it? Let's let's start there. >>I begin for about two years, and I switched to it with some trepidation. You know, I was used to always using the traditional product that you have to install on your computer, that everybody uses that. So I was kind of locked into that, but I started being very frustrated with the way it worked, um, and decided to give on ship chance. Which reputation? Because any change always, you know, causes anxiety. But very quickly my engineers started loving it. Uh, just because it's it's first of all, the learning curve wasn't very difficult at all. You can transfer from one from the traditional product to entree very quickly and easily. You can learn all the concepts very, very fast. It has all the functionality that we needed, and and what's best is that it allows to do things that we couldn't do before or we couldn't do easily. Um, now we can access the our cat documents from anywhere in the world. Um, so when we're in the lab fabricating something or testing a machine, any computer we have next to us or a tablet or on iPhone, we can pull it up and look at the cad and check things or make changes that something that couldn't do before because before you had to pay for every installation off the software for the computer, and I couldn't afford to have 20 installations to have some computers with the cat ready to use them like once every six months would have been very inefficient. So we love that part. And the collaboration features are fantastic. Especially now with Kobe, that we have to have all the remote meetings, eyes fantastic, that you can have another person drive the cad while the whole team is watching that person change the model and do things and point to things that is absolutely revolutionary. We love it. The fact that you have very, very sophisticated version control before it was always a challenge asking people, please, if you create anniversary and apart, how do we name it so that people find it? And then you end up with all these collection of files with names that nobody remembers, what they are, the person left and now nobody knows which version is the right one m s with on shape on the version ING system it has, and the fact that you can go back in history off the document and go back to previous version so easily and then go back to the press and version and explore the history of the part that is truly, um, just world changing for us, that we can do that so easily on for me as a manager to manage this collection of information that is critical for our operations. It makes it so much easier because everything is in one place. I don't have to worry about file servers that go down that I have to administer that have to have I t taken care off that have to figure how to keep access to people to those servers when they're at home. And they need a virtual private network and all of that mess disappears. I just simply give give a personal account on shape. And then, magically, they have access to everything in the way I want. And we can manage the lower documents and everything in a way, that is absolutely fantastic. >>Rafael, what was your what? What were some of the concerns you had mentioned? You had some trepidation. Was it a performance? Was it security? You know, some of the traditional cloud stuff and I'm curious as to how How whether any of those act manifested were they really that you had to manage? What were your concerns? >>Look, the main concern is how long is it going to take for everybody in the team? to learn to use the system like it and buy into it because I don't want to have my engineers using tools against their will write. I want everybody to be happy because that's how they're productive. They're happy and they enjoyed the tools they have. That was my main concern. I was a little bit worried about the whole concept of not having the files in a place where I couldn't quote unquote seat in some serving on site, but that that's kind of an outdated concept, right? So that took a little bit of a mind shift. But very quickly. Then I started thinking, Look, I have a lot of documents on Google Drive like I don't worry about that. Why would I worry about my cat on on shape? Right is the same thing. So I just needed to sort of put things in perspective that way. Um, the other, um, you know, their concern was the learning curve right is like how is he will be for everybody to and for me to learn it on whether it had all of the features that we needed and there were a few features that I actually discussed with, um uh, Cody at on shape on. They were actually awesome about using their scripting language in on shape to sort of mimic some of the features of the old cat, uh, in on shaped in a way that actually works even better than the old system. So it was It was amazing. Yeah. >>Great. Thank you for that, Phillip. What's your experience been? Maybe you could take us through your journey with on shape? >>Sure. So we've been we've been using on shaped Silver Side for coming up on about four years now, and we love it. We're very happy with it. We have a very modular product line, so and we make anything from detectors that would go into backpacks? Two vehicles, two very large things that a shipping container would go through and saw. Excuse me. Shape helps us to track and collaborate faster on the design, have multiple people working a same time on a project. And it also helps us to figure out if somebody else comes to us and say, Hey, I want something new. How we congrats modules from things that we already have. Put them together and then keep track of the design development and the different branches and ideas that we have, how they all fit together. A za design comes together and it's just been fantastic from a mechanical engineering background. I will also say that having used a number of different systems and solid works was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Before I got using on shape, I went, Wow, this is amazing. And I really don't want to design in any other platform after after getting on Lee a little bit familiar with it. >>You know, it's funny, right? I will have the speed of technology progression. I was explaining to some young guns the other day how e used to have a daytime er and that was my life. And if I lost that day, timer, I was dead. And I don't know how we weigh existed without, you know, Google Maps. Eso did we get anywhere? I don't know, but, uh, but so So, Matt, you know, it's interesting to think about, um, you know, some of the concerns that Raphael brought up, you hear? For instance, you know, all the time. Wow. You know, I get my Amazon bill at the end of the month It's through the roof in. But the reality is that Yeah, well, maybe you are doing more, but you're doing things that you couldn't have done before. And I think about your experience in teaching and educating. I mean, you so much more limited in terms of the resource is that you would have had to be able to educate people. So what's your experience been with With on shape and what is it enabled? >>Um, yeah, it was actually talking before we went with on shape. We had a previous CAD program and I was talking to my vendor about it, and he let me know that we were actually one of the biggest CAD shops in the state. Because if you think about it a really big program, you know, really big company might employ 5, 10, 15, 20 cad guys, right? I mean, when I worked for a large defense contractor, I think there were probably 20 of us as the cad guys. I now have about 300 students doing cat. So there's probably more students with more hours of cat under their belt in my building than there were when I worked for the big defense contractor. Um, but like you mentioned, uh, probably our biggest hurdle is just re sources. And so we want We want one of things I've always prided myself and trying to do in this programs provide students with access two tools and skills that they're going to see either in college or in the real world. So it's one of the reason we went with a big professional cad program. There are, you know, sort of k 12 oriented software and programs and things. But, you know, I want my kids coding and python and using slack and using professional type of tools on DSO when it comes to cat. That's just that that was a really hurt. I mean, you know, you could spend $30,000 on one seat of, you know, professional level cad program, and then you need a $30,000 computer to run it on if you're doing a heavy assemblies, Um, and so one of my dreams and it was always just a crazy dream. And I was the way I would always pitcher in my school system and say someday I'm gonna have a kid on a school issued chromebook in subsidized housing on public WiFi doing professional level bad and that that was a crazy statement until a couple of years ago. So we're really excited that I literally and, you know, march in, um, you said the forced march the forced march into, you know, modernity, March 13th kids sitting in my engineering lab that we spent a lot of money on doing. Cad March 14th. Those kids were at home on their school shoot chromebooks on public WiFi, uh, keeping their designs going and collaborating. And then, yeah, I could go on and on about some of the things you know, the features that we've learned since then they're even better. So it's not like this is some inferior, diminished version of the cat. And there's so much about it, E >>wanna I wanna ask you that I may be over my skis on this, but we're seeing we're starting to see the early days of the democratization of CAD and product design. It is the the citizen engineer. I mean, maybe insulting to the engineers in the room, but but is that we're beginning to see that >>I have to believe that everything moves into the cloud. Part of that is democratization that I don't need. I can whether you know, I think artists, you know, I could have a music studio in my basement with a nice enough software package. And Aiken, I could be a professional for now. My wife's a photographer. I'm not allowed to say that I could be a professional photographer with, you know, some cloud based software. And so, yeah, I do think that's part of what we're seeing is more and more technology is moving to the cloud >>Philip or Rafael anything. Your dad, >>I think I mean yeah, that that that combination of cloud based cat and then three D printing that is becoming more and more affordable on ubiquitous It's truly transformative, and I think for education is fantastic. I wish when I was a kid I had the opportunity to play with those kinds of things because I was always the late things. But, you know, the in a very primitive way. So, um, I think there's a dream for kids Thio to be able to do this. And, um, yeah, there's so many other technologies coming on, like Arduino and all of these electronic things that live. Kids play at home very cheaply with things that back in my day would have been unthinkable. >>So we know there's a go ahead. Philip Way >>had a pandemic and silver site moved to a new manufacturing facility this year. I was just on the shop floor, talking with contractors, standing 6 ft apart, pointing at things. But through it all, our CAD system was completely unruffled. Nothing stopped in our development work. Nothing stopped in our support for existing systems in the field. We didn't have to think about it. We had other server issues, but none with our, you know, engineering cad, platform and product development and support world right ahead, which was cool, but also a That's point. I think it's just really cool what you're doing with the kids. The most interesting secondary and college level engineering work that I did was project based. It's an important problem to the world. Go solve it and that is what we do here. That is what my entire career has been. And I'm super excited to see See what your students are gonna be doing, uh, in there home classrooms on their chromebooks now and what they do. Building on that. >>Yeah, I'm super excited to see your kids coming out of college with engineering degrees because yeah, I think that project based experience is so much better than just sitting in a classroom, taking notes and doing math problems on. And I think he will give the kids a much better flavor What engineering is really about. Think a lot of kids get turned off by engineering because they think it's kind of dry because it's just about the math for some very abstract abstract concept, and they are there. But I think the most important thing is just that. Hands on a building and the creativity off, making things that you can touch that you can see that you can see functioning. >>Great. So you know, we all know the relentless pace of technology progression. So when you think about when you're sitting down with the folks that on shape and there the customer advisor for one of the things that you want on shape to do that it doesn't do today >>I could start by saying, I just love some of the things that does do because it's such a modern platform and I think some of these, uh, some some platforms that have a lot of legacy and a lot of history behind them. I think we're dragging some of that behind them. So it's cool to see a platform that seemed to be developed in a modern era. And so that's, you know, it is the Google docks. And so the fact that collaboration and version ing and link sharing is, and, like, platform agnostic abilities the fact that that seems to be just built into the nature of the thing so far, that's super exciting as far as things that it to go from there, Um, I don't know. >>Other than price, >>you can't say I >>can't say lower price. >>Yeah, so far on a PTC s that worked with us. Really well, so I'm not complaining. There. You there? >>Yeah. Yeah. No Gaps, guys. Whitespace, Come on. >>We've been really enjoying the three week update Cadence. You know, there's a new version every three weeks and we don't have to install it. We just get all the latest and greatest goodies. One of the trends that we've been following and enjoying is the the help with a revision management and release work flows. Um, and I know that there's more than on shape is working on that we're very excited for, because that's a big important part about making real hardware and supporting it in the field. Um, something that was cool. They just integrated Cem markup capability In the last release that took, we were doing that anyway, but we were doing it outside of on shapes, and now we get to streamline our workflow and put it in the CAD system where we're making those changes anyway, when we're reviewing drawings and doing this kind of collaboration. And so I think from our perspective, we continue to look forward toa further progress on that. There's a lot of capability in the cloud that I think they're just kind of scratching the surface on you. >>I would. I mean, you're you're asking to knit. Pick. I would say one of the things that I would like to see is is faster regeneration speed. There are a few times with comics necessities that regenerating the document takes a little longer than I would like to. It's not a serious issue, but anyway, I'm being spoiled, >>you know. That's good. I've been doing this a long time and I like toe Ask that question of practitioners and to me, it it's a signal like when you're nit picking and that you're struggling to knit. Pick that to me is a sign of a successful product. And And I wonder, I don't know, uh, have the deep dive into the architecture, But are things like alternative processors? You're seeing them hit the market in a big way. Uh, you know, maybe a helping address the challenge, But I'm gonna ask you the big, chewy question now, then would maybe go to some audience questions when you think about the world's biggest problems. I mean, we're global pandemics. Obviously top of mind. You think about nutrition, you know, feeding the global community. We've actually done a pretty good job of that. But it's not necessarily with the greatest nutrition climate change, alternative energy, the economic divides. You've got geopolitical threats and social unrest. Health care is a continuing problem. What's your vision for changing the world and how product innovation for good can be applied to some of the the problems that that you all are passionate about? Big question. But who wants toe start >>not biased. But for years I've been saying that if you want to solve the economy, the environment, uh, global unrest, pandemics education is the case If you wanna if you want to, um, make progress in those in those realms, I think funding funding education is probably gonna pay off pretty well. >>Absolutely. And I think stem is key to that. I mean, all of the, ah lot of the well being that we have today and then industrialized countries, thanks to science and technology, right, improvements in health care, improvements in communication, transportation, air conditioning. Um, every aspect of life is touched by science and technology. So I think having more kids studying and understanding that is absolutely key. Yeah, I agree, >>Philip, you got anything they had? >>I think there's some big technical problems in the world today, Raphael and ourselves there certainly working on a couple of them. Think they're also collaboration problems and getting everybody doing ableto pull together instead of pulling, pulling separately and to be able to spur the idea is onwards. So that's where I think the education side is really exciting. What Matt is doing and and it just kind of collaboration in general when we could do provide tools to help people do good work? Uh, that is, I think, valuable. >>Yeah, I think that's a very good point. And along those lines, we have some projects that are about creating very low cost instruments for low research settings places in Africa, Southeast Asia, South America so that they can do, um, um, biomedical research that it's difficult to do in those place because they don't have the money to buy the fancy lab machines that cost $30,000 an hour. Um, so we're trying to sort of democratize some of those instruments. And I think thanks to tools like Kahn shaped and is easier, for example, to have a conversation with somebody in Africa and show them the design that we have and discuss the details of it with them. Andi, that's amazing. Right? To have somebody you know, 10 time zones away, Um, looking really life in real time with you about your design and discussing the details or teaching them how to build a machine. Right? Because, um, you know, they have a three d printer. You can you just give them the design and say, like, you build it yourself, uh, even cheaper than and, you know, also billing and shipping it there. Um, so all that that that aspect of it is also so super important, I think, for any of these efforts to improve, um, some of the hardest part was in the world from climate change. Do you say, as you say, poverty, nutrition issues? Um, you know, availability of water. You have that project at about finding water. Um, if we can also help deploy technologies that teach people remotely how to create their own technologies or how to build their own systems that will help them solve those forms locally. I think that's very powerful. >>Yeah, that point about education is right on. I think some people in the audience may be familiar with the work of Erik Brynjolfsson and Andrew McAfee, the second machine age where they sort of put forth the premise that, uh, is it laid it out. Look, for the first time in history, machines air replacing humans from a cognitive perspective. Machines have always replaced humans, but that's gonna have an impact on jobs. But the answer is not toe protect the past from the future. Uh, the answer is education and public policy. That really supports that. So I couldn't agree more. I think it's a really great point. Um, we have We do have some questions from the audience. If if we can. If I can ask you guys, um, you know, this one kind of stands out. How do you see artificial intelligence? I was just talking about machine intelligence. Um, how do you see that? Impacting the design space guys trying to infuse a I into your product development. What can you tell me? >>Um, absolutely. Like, we're using AI for some things, including some of these very low cost instruments that will hopefully help us diagnose certain diseases, especially this is that are very prevalent in the Third World. Um, and some of those diagnostics are these days done by thes armies of technicians that are trained to look under the microscope. But, um, that's a very slow process. Is very error prone and having machine learning systems that can, to the same diagnosis faster, cheaper and also little machines that can be taken to very remote places to these villages that have no access to a fancy microscope to look at a sample from a patient that's very powerful, and I we don't do this. But I have read quite a bit about how certain places air, using a Tribune attorneys to actually help them optimize designs for parts. So you get these very interesting looking parts that you would have never thought off. A person would have never thought off, but that are incredibly light ink earlier strong and I have all sort of properties that are interesting thanks to artificial intelligence machine learning in particular, >>yet another, uh, advantage you get when when your work is in the cloud I've seen. I mean, there's just so many applications that so if the radiology scan is in the cloud and the radiologist is goes to bed at night, radiologist could come in in the morning and and say, Oh, the machine while you were sleeping was using artificial intelligence to scan these 40,000 images. And here's the five that we picked out that we think you should take a closer look at or like Raphael said. I can design my part. My, my, my, my, my you know, mount or bracket or whatever and go to sleep. And then I wake up in the morning. The machine has improved. It for me has made it strider strider stronger and lighter. Um And so just when your when your work is in the cloud, that's just that's a really cool advantage that you get that you can have machines doing some of your design work for you. >>Yeah, we've been watching, uh, you know, this week is this month, I guess is aws re invent and it's just amazing to see how much effort is coming around machine learning machine intelligence. You know, Amazon has sage maker Google's got, you know, embedded you no ML and big query. Certainly Microsoft with Azure is doing tons of stuff and machine learning. I think the point there is that that these things will be infused in tow R and D and in tow software products by the vendor community. And you all will apply that to your business and and build value through the unique data that your collecting you know, in your ecosystems. And and that's how you add value. You don't have to be necessarily, you know, developers of artificial intelligence, but you have to be practitioners to apply that. Does that make sense to you, Philip? >>Yeah, absolutely. And I think your point about value is really well chosen. We see AI involved from the physics simulations all the way up to interpreting radiation data, and that's where the value question, I think, is really important because it's is the output of the AI giving helpful information that the people that need to be looking at it. So if it's curating a serious of radiation alert, saying, Hey, like these are the anomalies you need to look at eyes it, doing that in a way that's going to help a good response on. In some cases, the II is only as good as the people. That sort of gave it a direction and turn it loose. And you want to make sure that you don't have biases or things like that underlying your AI that air going to result in, uh in less than helpful outcomes coming from it. So we spend quite a lot of time thinking about how do we provide the right outcomes to people who are who are relying on our systems? >>That's a great point, right? Humans, air biased and humans build models, so models are inherently biased. But then software is hitting the market. That's gonna help us identify those biases and help us, you know? Of course. Correct. So we're entering Cem some very exciting times, guys. Great conversation. I can't thank you enough for spending the time with us and sharing with our audience the innovations that you're bringing to help the world. So thanks again. >>Thank you so much. >>Thank you. >>Okay. You're welcome. Okay. When we come back, John McElheny is gonna join me. He's on shape. Co founder. And he's currently the VP of strategy at PTC. He's gonna join the program. We're gonna take a look at what's next and product innovation. I'm Dave Volonte and you're watching innovation for good on the Cube, the global leader. Digital technology event coverage. We'll be right back

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting innovation for good. Brought to >>you by on shape. Okay, welcome back to innovation. For good. With me is John McElheny, who is one of the co founders of on Shape and is now the VP of strategy at PTC. John, good to see you. Thanks for making the time to come on the program. Thanks, Dave. So we heard earlier some of the accomplishments that you've made since the acquisition. How has the acquisition affected your strategy? Maybe you could talk about what resource is PTC brought to the table that allowed you toe sort of rethink or evolve your strategy? What can you share with us? >>Sure. You know, a year ago when John and myself met with Jim Hempleman early on is we're we're pondering started joining PTC. One of things became very clear is that we had a very clear shared vision about how we could take the on shape platform and really extended for for all of the PTC products, particular sort of their augmented reality as well as their their thing works or the i o. T business and their product. And so from the very beginning, there was a clear strategy about taking on shape, extending the platform and really investing, um, pretty significantly in the product development as well as go to market side of things, uh, toe to bring on shape out to not only the PTC based but sort of the broader community at large. So So So PTC has been terrific. Terrific, um, sort of partner as we've we've gonna go on after this market together. Eso we've added a lot of resource and product development side of things. Ah, lot of resource and to go to market and customer success and support. So really, on many fronts, that's with both resource is, as well a sort of support at the corporate level from from a strategic standpoint and then in the field, we've had wonderful interactions with many large enterprise customers as well as the PTC channels. So it's been really a great a great year. >>Well, and you think about the challenges of your business going to sas what you guys, you know, took on that journey, you know, 78 years ago. Uh, it's not trivial for a lot of companies to make that transition, especially company. That's been around as long as PTC. So So I'm wondering how much you know, I was just asking you what PC PTC brought the table. E gotta believe you're bringing a lot to the table to in terms of the mindset, uh, even things is, is mundane is not the right word. But things like how you compensate sales people, how you interact with customers, the notion of a service versus a product. I wonder if you could address >>that. Yeah, it's a It's a really great point. In fact, after we had met Jim last year, John and I one of the things we walked out in the seaport area in Boston one of things we sort of said is you know, Jim really gets what we're trying to do here and and part of let me bring you into the thinking early on. Part of what Jim talked about is there's lots of, you know, installed base sort of software that's inside of PTC base. That helped literally thousands of customers around the world. But the idea of moving to sass and all that it entails both from a technology standpoint, but also a cultural standpoint, like how do you not not just compensate the sales people as an example? But how do you think about customers? Success? In the past, it might have been that you had professional services that you bring out to a customer, help them deploy your solutions. Well, when you're thinking about a SAS based offering, it's really critical that you get customers successful with it. Otherwise, you may have turned, and you know it will be very expensive in terms of your business long term. So you've got to get customers success with software in the very beginning. So you know, Jim really looked at on shape and he said that John and I from a cultural standpoint, you know, a lot of times companies get acquired and they've acquired technology in the past that they integrate directly into into PTC and then sort of roll it out through their products or their distribution channels, he said. In some respects, John John, think about it as we're gonna take PTC and we want to integrate it into on shape because we want you to share with us both on the sales side and customer success on marketing on operations, you know, all the things because long term, we believe the world is a SAS world, that the whole industry is gonna move too. So, really, it was sort of an inverse in terms of the thought process related to normal transactions >>on that makes a lot of sense to me. You mentioned Sharon turns the silent killer of a SAS company. And you know, there's a lot of discussion, you know, in the entrepreneurial community because you live this, you know, what's the best path? I mean, today, you see, you know, you you watch Silicon Valley double, double, triple triple. But but there's a lot of people who believe, and I wonder, if you come in there is the best path to, you know, in the X Y axis. If if it's if it's, uh, growth on one and retention on the other axis, what's the best way to get to the upper right on? Really, the the best path is probably make sure you've nailed obviously the product market fit, but make sure that you can retain customers and then throw gas on the fire. You see a lot of companies they burn out trying to grow too fast, but they haven't figured out, you know that. But there's too much churn. They haven't figured out those metrics. I mean, obviously on shape. You know, you were sort of a pioneer in here. I gotta believe you've figured out that customer retention before you really? You know, put the pedal to the >>metal. Yeah. And you know, growth growth can mask a lot of things, but getting getting customers, especially the engineering space. Nobody goes and sits there and says, Tomorrow we're gonna go and and, you know, put 100 users on this and and immediately swap out all of our existing tools. These tools are very rich and deep in terms of capability, and they become part of the operational process of how a company designs and builds products. So any time anybody is actually going through the purchasing process, typically they will run a try along or they'll run a project where they look at Kind of What? What is this new solution gonna help them dio. How are we gonna orient ourselves for success? Longer term. So for us, you know, getting new customers and customer acquisition is really critical. But getting those customers to actually deploy the solution to be successful with it. You know, we like to sort of, say, the marketing or the lead generation and even some of the initial sales. That's sort of like the Kindle ing. But the fire really starts when customers deploy it and get successful with the solution because they bring other customers into the fold. And then, of course, if they're successful with it, you know, then in fact, you have negative turn which, ironically, means growth in terms of your inside of your install Bates. >>Right? And you've seen that with some of the emerging, you know, SAS companies, where you're you're actually you know, when you calculate whatever its net retention or renew ALS, it's actually from a dollar standpoint that's up in the high nineties or even over 100% >>so and >>that's a trend we're gonna continue. See, I wonder if we could sort of go back. Uh, and when you guys were starting on shape, some of the things that you saw that you were trying to strategically leverage and what's changed, you know, today we were talking. I was talking to John earlier about in a way, you kinda you kinda got a blank slate is like doing another startup. You're not. Obviously you've got installed base and customers to service, but but it's a new beginning for you guys. So one of the things that you saw then you know, cloud and and sas and okay, but that's we've been there, done that. What are you seeing? You know, today? >>Well, you know, So So this is a journey, of course, that that on shape on its own has gone through. And had, I'll sort of say, you know, several iterations, both in terms of of of, you know, how do you How do you get customers? How do you How do you get them successful? How do you grow those customers? And now that we've been part of PTC, the question becomes okay, One, there is certainly a higher level of credibility that helps us in terms of our our megaphone is much bigger than it was when we're standalone company. But on top of that now, figuring out how to work with their channel with their direct sales force, you know, they have, um, for example, you know, very large enterprises. Well, many of those customers are not gonna go in forklift out their existing solution to replace it with with on shape. However, many of them do have challenges in their supply chain and communications with contractors and vendors across the globe. And so, you know, finding our fit inside of those large enterprises as they extend out with their their customers is a very interesting area that we've really been sort of incremental to to PTC. And then, you know, they they have access to lots of other technology, like the i O. T business. And now, of course, the augmented reality business that that we can bring things to bear. For example, in the augmented reality world they've they've got something called expert capture. And this is essentially imagined, you know, in a are, ah, headset that allows you to be ableto to speak to it but also capture images, still images in video, and you could take somebody who's doing their task and capture literally the steps that they're taking its geo location and from their builds steps for new employees. We'll learn and understand how todo use that technology to help them do their job better. Well, when they do that if there is replacement products or variation of of some of the tools that that they built the original design instruction set for they now have another version. Well, they have to manage multiple versions. Well, that's what on shape is really great at doing and so taking our technology and helping their solutions as well. So it's not only expanding our customer footprint, it's expanding the application footprint in terms of how we can help them and help customers. >>So that leads me to the tam discussion. And again, it was part of your strategist role. How do you think about that? Was just talking to some of your customers earlier about the democratization of cat and engineering. You know, I kind of joked, sort of like citizen engineering, but but so that, you know, the demographics are changing the number of users potentially that can access the products because the it's so much more of a facile experience. How are you thinking about the total available market? >>It really is a great question, you know, It used to be when you when you sold boxes of software, it was how many engineers were out there, and that's the size of the market. The fact that matter is now when, When you think about access to that information, that data is simply a pane of glass. Whether it's a computer, whether it's a laptop, uh, a cell phone or whether it's a tablet, the ability to to use different vehicles, access information and data expands the capabilities and power of a system to allow feedback and iteration. I mean, one of the one of the very interesting things is in technology is when you can take something and really unleash it to a larger audience and builds, you know, purpose built applications. You can start to iterate, get better feedback. You know, there's a classic case in the clothing industry where Zara, you know, is a fast, sort of turnaround agile manufacturer. And there was a great New York Times article written a couple years ago. My wife's a fan of Zara, and I think she justifies any purchases by saying, you know, was Are you gotta purchase it now. Otherwise it may not be there the next time. Yet you go back to the store. They had some people in the store in New York that had this woman's throw kind of covering Shaw, and they said, Well, it would be great if we could have this little clip here so we could hook it through or something. And they sent a note back toe to the factory in Spain and literally two weeks later they had, you know, 4000 of these things in store, and they sold out because they had a closed loop and iterative process. And so if we could take information and allow people access in multiple ways through different devices and different screens, that could be very specific information that, you know, we remove a lot of the engineering data book, bring the end user products conceptually to somebody that would have had to wait months to get the actual physical prototype, and we could get feedback. Well, Weaken have a better chance of making sure whatever product we're building is the right product when it ultimately gets delivered to a customer. So it's really it's a much larger market that has to be thought of rather than just the kind of selling a boxes off where to an engineer, >>that's a great story, and and again, it's gotta be exciting for you guys to see that on day with the added resource is that you have a PTC eso. Let's talk. I promise people we want to talk about Atlas. Let's talk about the platform. A little bit of Atlas was announced last year. Atlas. For those who don't know it's a SAS space platform, it purports to go beyond product lifecycle management and you you're talking cloudlike agility and scale to CAD and product design. But, John, you could do a better job than I. What do >>we need to know about Atlas? Well, I think Atlas is a great description because it really is metaphorically, sort of holding up all of the PTC applications themselves. But from the very beginning, when John and I met with Jim, part of what we were intrigued about was that he shared a vision that on shape was more than just going to be a cad authoring tool that, in fact, you know, in the past, these engineering tools were very powerful, but they were very narrow in their purpose and focus, and we had specialty applications to manage diversions, etcetera. What we did in on shape is we kind of inverted that thinking we built this collaboration and sharing engine at the core and then kind of wrap the CAD system around it. But that collaboration sharing and version ING engine is really powerful. And it was that vision that Jim had that he shared that we had from the beginning, which was, how do we take this thing to make a platform that could be used for many other applications inside of inside of any company? And so not only do we have a partner application area that is is much like the APP store or Google play store. Uh, that was sort of our first misty initiation of this this this platform. But now we're extending out to broader applications and much meatier applications. And internally, that's the thing works in the in the augmented reality. But there'll be other applications that ultimately find its way on top of this platform, and so they'll get all the benefits of of the collaboration, sharing the version ing the multi platform multi device. And that's an extremely extremely, um, strategic leverage point for the company. >>You know, it's interesting, John, you mentioned the seaport before, So PTC For those who don't know built a beautiful facility down at the seaport in Boston. And of course, when PTC started back in the mid 19 eighties, this there was nothing at the seaport s. >>So it's >>kind of kind of ironic, you know, we were way seeing the transformation of the seaport. We're seeing the transformation of industry and of course, PTC. And I'm sure someday you'll get back into that beautiful office, you know? Wait. Yeah, I'll Bet. And, uh and but I wanna bring this up because I want I want you to talk about the future. How you how you see that our industry and you've observed this has moved from very product centric, uh, plat platform centric with sass and cloud. And now we're seeing ecosystems form around those products and platforms and in data flowing through the ecosystem, powering you new innovation. I wonder if you could paint a picture for us of what the future looks like to you from your vantage point. >>Yeah, I think one of the key words you said there is data because up until now, data for companies really was sort of trapped in different applications. And it wasn't because people with nefarious and they want to keep it limited. It was just the way in which things were built, and you know, when people use an application like on shape, what ends up happening is there their day to day interactions and everything that they dio is actually captured by the platform. And you know, we don't have access to that data. Of course it's it's the customer's data. But as as an artifact of them using the system than doing their day to day job, what's happening is they're creating huge amounts of information that can then be accessed and analyzed to help them both improve their design process, improve their efficiencies, improve their actual schedules in terms of making sure they can hit delivery times and be able to understand where there might be roadblocks in the future. So the way I see it is, companies now are deploying SAS based tools like an shape and an artifact of them. Using that platform is that they have now analytics and tools to better understand and an instrument and manage their business. And then from there, I think you're going to see, because these systems are all you know extremely well. architected allow through, you know, very structured AP. I calls to connect other SAS based applications. You're gonna start seeing closed loop sort of system. So, for example, people design using on shape. They end up going and deploying their system or installing it, or people use the end using products. People then may call back into the customers support line and report issues problems, challenges. They'll be able to do traceability back to the underlying design. They'll be able to do trend analysis and defect analysis from the support lines and tie it back and closed loop the product design, manufacture, deployment in the field sort of cycles. In addition, you can imagine there's many things that air sort of as designed. But then when people go on site and they have to install it, there's some alterations modifications. Think about think about like a large air conditioning units for buildings. You go and you go to train and you get a large air conditioning unit that put up on the top of building with a crane. They have to build all kinds of adaptors to make sure that that will fit inside of of of the particulars of that building. You know, with on shape and tools like this, you'll be able to not only take the design of what the air conditioning system might be, but also the all the adapter plates, but also how they installed it. So it sort of as designed as manufactured as stalled. And all these things can be traced just like if you think about the transformation of customer service or customer contacts. In the early days, you used to have tools that were PC based tools called contact management solution, you know, kind of act or gold mine. And these were basically glorified Elektronik role in Texas. It had a customer names, and they had phone numbers and whatever else. And Salesforce and Siebel, these types of systems really broadened out the perspective of what a customer relationship waas. So it wasn't just the contact information it was, you know, How did they come to find out about you as a company? So all the pre sort of marketing and then kind of what happens after they become a customer and it really was a 3 60 view. I think that 3 60 view gets extended to not just to the customers, but also tools and the products they use. And then, of course, the performance information that could come back to the manufacturer. So, you know, as an engineer, one of the things you learn about with systems is the following. And if you remember, when the 501st came out CDs that used to talk about four times over sampling or eight times over sampling and it was really kind of, you know, the fidelity the system. And we know from systems theory that the best way to improve the performance of a system is to actually have more feedback. The more feedback you have, the better system could be. And so that's why you got 16 60 for example, etcetera. Same thing here. The more feedback we have of different parts of a company that a better performance. The company will be better customer relationships, better overall financial performance as well. So that's that's the view I have of how these systems all tied together. >>The great vision in your point about the data is, I think, right on. It used to be so fragmented in silos, and in order to take a system view, you've gotta have a system view of the data. Uh, for years we've optimized maybe on one little component of the system and that sometimes we lose sight of the overall outcome. And so what you just described, I think is, I think sets up. You know very well as we exit. Hopefully soon we exit this this covert era on John. I hope that you and I can sit down face to face at a PTC on shape event in the near term. Who's >>in the seaport in the >>seaport Would tell you that great facility toe have have an event for sure. It >>z wonderful >>there. So So, John McElhinney. Thanks so much for for participating in the program. It was really great to have you on. >>Right. Thanks, Dave. >>Okay. And I want to thank everyone for participating. Today. We have some great guest speakers. And remember, this is a live program, so give us a little bit of time. We're gonna flip this site over to on demand mode so you can share it with your colleagues and you, or you can come back and and watch the sessions that you heard today. Uh, this is Dave Volonte for the Cube and on shape PTC. Thank you so much for watching innovation for good. Be well, have a great holiday and we'll see you next time.

>> We're here at the Data Cloud Summit 2020, tracking the rise of the data cloud. And we're talking about the ecosystem powering the next generation of innovation in cloud, you know, for decades, the technology industry has been powered by great products. Well, the cloud introduced a new type of platform that transcended point products and the next generation of cloud platforms is unlocking data-centric ecosystems where access to data is at the core of innovation, tapping the resources of many versus the capabilities of one. Casey McGee is here. He's the vice president of global ISV sales at Microsoft, and he's joined by Colleen Kapase, who is the VP of partnerships and global alliances at Snowflake. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. It's great to see you. >> Thanks Dave, good to see you. Thank you. >> Thanks for having us here. >> You're very welcome. So, Casey, let me start with you please. You know, Microsoft's got a long heritage, of course, working with partners, you're renowned in that regard, built a unbelievable ecosystem, the envy of many in the industry. So if you think about as enterprises, they're speeding up their cloud adoption, what are you seeing as the role and the importance of ecosystem, the ISV ecosystem specifically, in helping make customers' outcomes successful? >> Yeah, let me start by saying we have a 45 year history of partnership, so from our very beginning as a company, we invested to build these partnerships. And so let me start by saying from day one, we looked at a diverse ecosystem as one of the most important strategies for us, both to bring innovation to customers and also to drive growth. And so we're looking to build that environment even today. So 45 years later, focused on how do we zero in on the business outcomes that matter most to customers, usually identified by the industry that they're serving. So really building an ecosystem that helps us serve both the customers and the business outcomes they're looking to drive. And so we're building that ecosystem of ISVs on the Microsoft cloud and focused on bringing that innovation as a platform provider through those companies. >> So Casey, let's stay on that for a moment, if we can. I mean, you work with a lot of ISVs and you got a big portfolio of your own solutions. Now, sometimes they overlap with the ISV offerings of your partners. How do you balance the focus on first party solutions and third-party ISV partner solutions? >> Yeah, first and foremost, we're a platform company. So our whole intent is to bring value to that partner ecosystem. Well, sometimes that means we may have offers in market that may compliment one another. Our focus is really on serving the customer. So anytime we see that, we're looking at what is the most desired outcome for our customer, driving innovation into that specific business requirement. So for us, it's always focusing on the customer, and really zeroing in on making sure that we're solving their business problems. Sometimes we do that together with partners like Snowflake. Sometimes that means we do that on our own, but the key for us is really deeply understanding what's important to the customer and then bringing the best of the Microsoft and Snowflake scenarios to bear. >> You know, Casey, I appreciate that. A lot times people say "Dave, don't ask me that question. It's kind of uncomfortable." So Colleen, I want to bring you into the discussion. How does Snowflake view this dynamic, where you're simultaneously partnering and competing sometimes with some of the big cloud companies on the planet? >> Yeah, Dave, I think it's a great question, and really in this era of innovation, so many large companies like Microsoft are so diverse in their product set, it's almost impossible for them to not have some overlap with most of their ecosystem. But I think Casey said it really well, as long as we stay laser focused on the customer, and there are a lot of very happy Snowflake customers and happy Azure customers, we really win together. And I think we're finding ways in which we're working better and better together, from a technology standpoint, and from a field standpoint. And customers want to see us come together and bring best of breed solutions. So I think we're doing a lot better, and I'm looking forward to our future, too. >> So Casey, Snowflake, you know, they're really growing, they've got a pretty large footprint on Azure. You're talking hundreds of customers here that are active on that platform. I wonder if you could talk about the product integration points that you kind of completed initially, and then kind of what's on the horizon that you see as particularly important for your joint customers? >> You have to say, so one of the things that I love about this partnership is that, well, we start with what the customer wants. We bring that back into the engineering-level relationship that we have between the two companies. And so that's produced some pretty incredibly rich functionality together. So let me start by saying, you know, we've got eight Azure regions today with nine coming on soon. And so we have a geographic diversity that is important for many of our customers. We've also got a series of engineering-level integrations that we've already built. So that's functionality for Azure Private Link, as well as integration between Power BI, Azure Data Factory, and Azure Data Lake, all of this back again to serve the business outcomes that are required for our customers. So it's this level of integration that I think really speaks to the power of the partnership. So we are intently focused on the democratization of data. So we know that Snowflake is the premier partner to help us do that. So getting that right is key to enabling high concurrency use cases with large numbers of businesses, users coming together, and getting the performance they expect. >> Yeah, I appreciate that Casey, because a lot of times I'll, you know, I'll look at the press release. Sometimes we laugh, we call them Barney deals. You know, "I love you. You love me." But I listen for the word engineering and integration. Those are sort of important triggers. Colleen, or Casey too, but I want to start with Colleen. I mean, anything you would add to that, are there things that you guys have worked on together that you're particularly proud of, or maybe that have pushed the envelope and enabled new capabilities for customers where they've given you great feedback? Any examples you can share? >> Great question. And we're definitely focusing on making sure stability is a core value for both of us, so that what we offer, that our customers can trust, is going to work well and be dependable, so that's a key focus for us. We're also looking at how can we advance into the future, what can we do around machine learning, it's an area that's really exciting for a lot of the CXO-level leadership at our customers, so we're certainly focused on that. And also looking at Power BI and the visualization of how do we bring these solutions together as well. I'd also say at the same time, we're trying to make the buying experience frictionless for our customers, so we're also leveraging and innovating with Azure's Marketplace, so that our customers can easily acquire Snowflake together with Azure. And even that is being helpful for our customers. Casey, what are your thoughts, too? >> Yeah, let me add to that. I think the work that we've done with Power BI is pretty, pretty powerful. I mean, ultimately, we've got customers out there that are looking to better visualize the data, better inform decisions that they're making. So as much as AI and ML and the inherent power of the data that's being stored within Snowflake is important in and of itself, Power BI really unlocks that and helps drive better decisions, better visualization, and help drive to decision outcomes that are important to the customer. So I love the work that we're doing on Power BI and Snowflake. >> Yeah, and you guys both mentioned, you know, machine learning. I mean, they really are an ecosystem of tools. And the thing to me about Azure, it's all about optionality. You mentioned earlier, Casey, you guys are a platform. So, you know, customer A may want to use Power BI. Another customer might want to use another visualization tool, fine, from a platform perspective, you really don't care, do you? So I wonder Colleen, if we could, and again, maybe Casey can chime in afterwards. You guys, obviously everybody these days, but you in particular, you're focused on customer outcomes. That's the sort of starting point, and Snowflake for sure has built pretty significant experience working with large enterprises and working alongside of Microsoft to get other partners. In your experience, what are customers really looking for out of the two joint companies when they engage with Snowflake and Microsoft, so that one plus one is, you know, much bigger than two. Maybe Colleen, you could start. >> Yeah, I definitely think that what our customers are looking for is both trust and seamlessness. They just want the technology to work. The beauty of Snowflake is our ease of use. So many customers have questions about their business, more so now in this pandemic world than ever before. So the seamlessness, the ease of use, the frictionless, all of these things really matter to our joint customers, and seeing our teams come together, too, in the field, to show here's how Snowflake and Azure are better together, in your local area, and having examples of customers where we've had win-wins, which I'd say Casey, we're getting more and more of those every day, frankly, so it's pretty exciting times. And having our sales teams work as a partnership, even though we compete, we know where we play well together, and I see us doing that over and over again, more and more, around the world, too, which is really important as Snowflake pushes forward, beyond the North America geographies into stronger and stronger in the global regions, where frankly, Microsoft's had a long, storied history at. That's very exciting, especially in Europe and Asia. >> Casey, anything you'd add to that? >> Yeah. Colleen, it's well said. I think ultimately, what customers are looking for is that when our two companies come together, we bring new innovation, new ideas, new ways to solve old problems. And so I think what I love about this partnership is ultimately when we come together, whether it's engineering teams coming together to build new product, whether it's our sales and marketing teams out in front of the customers, across that spectrum, I think customers are looking for us to help bring new ideas. And I love the fact that we've engineered this partnership to do just that. And ultimately we're focused on how do we come together and build something new and different. And I think we can solve some of the most challenging problems with the power of the data and the innovation that we're bringing to the table. >> I mean, you know, Casey, I mean, everybody's really quite in awe and amazed at Microsoft's transformation, and really openness and willingness to really, change and lean into some of the big waves. I wonder if you could talk about your multi-platform strategy and what problems that you're solving in conjunction with Snowflake. >> Yeah, let me start by saying, you know, I think as much as we appreciate that feedback on the progress that we've been striving for, I mean, we're still learning every day, looking for new opportunities to learn from customers, from partners, and so a lot of what you see on the outside is the result of a really focused culture, really focusing on what's important to our customers, focusing on how do we build diversity and inclusion to everything we do, whether that's within Microsoft, with our partners, our customers, and ultimately, how do we show up as one Microsoft, I call one Microsoft kind of the partner's gift. It's ultimately how do our companies show up together? So I think if you look multi-platform, we have the same concept, right? We have the Microsoft cloud that we're offering out in the marketplace. The Microsoft cloud consists of what we're serving up as far as the platform, consists of what we're serving up for data and AI, modern workplace and business applications. And so this multi-cloud strategy for us is really focused on how do we bring innovation across each of the solution areas that matter most to customers. And so I see really the power of the Snowflake partnership playing in there. >> Awesome. Colleen, are there any examples you can share where, maybe this partnership has unlocked the customer opportunity or unique value? >> Yeah, I can't speak about the customer-specific, but what I can do and say is, Casey and I play very corporate roles in terms of we're thinking about the long-term partnership, we're driving the strategy. But hey, look, we'll get called in, we're working a deal right now, it's almost close of the quarter for us, we're literally working on an opportunity right now, how can we win together, how can we be competitive, the customers, the CIO has asked us to come together, to work on that solution. Very large, well-known brand. And we're able to get up to the very senior levels of our companies very quickly to make decisions on what do we need to do to be better and stronger together. And that's really what a partnership is about, you can do the long-term plans and the strategics and you can have great products, but when your executives can pick up the phone and call each other to work on a particular deal, for a particular customer's need, I think that's where the power of the partnership really comes together, and that's where we're at. And that's been a growth opportunity for us this year, is, wasn't necessarily where we were at, and I really have to thank Casey for that. He's done a ton, getting us the right glue between our executives, making sure the relationships are there, and making sure the trust is there, so when our customers need us to come together, that dialogue and that shared diction of putting customers first is there between both companies. So thank you, Casey. >> Oh, thanks, Colleen, the feeling's mutual. >> Well, I think this is key because as I said up front, we've gone from sort of very product-focused to platform-focused. And now we're tapping the power of the ecosystem. That's not always easy to get all the parts moving together, but we live in this API economy. You could say "Hey, I'm a company, everything's going to be homogeneous. Everything is going to be my stack." And maybe that's one way to solve the problem, but really that's not how customers want to solve the problem. Casey, I'll give you the last word. >> Yeah, let me just end by saying, you know, first off the cultures between our two companies couldn't be more well aligned. So I think ultimately when you ask yourself the question, "What do we do to best show up in front of our customers?" It is, focus on their business outcomes, focus on the things that matter most to them. And this partnership will show up well. And I think ultimately our greatest opportunity is to tap into that need, to that interest. And I couldn't be happier about the partnership and the fact that we are so well aligned. So thank you for that. >> Well guys, thanks very much for coming on theCUBE and unpacking some of the really critical aspects of the ecosystem. It was really a pleasure having you. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> Okay, and thank you for watching. Keep it right there. We've got more great content coming your way at the Data Cloud Summit.

>> Welcome everyone to the Cube Virtual. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. With me today is Clint Poole, who is the head of marketing at Onshape for PTC. Clint, welcome to the Cube. >> Well, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Great to be here. >> It is a pleasure to have you. And we are here marking the one-year anniversary of PTCs acquisition of Onshape, which PTC acquired last year for just under five, 500 million dollars. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> So tell our viewers a little bit about Onshape. It is a true software and service company that helps product developers, by combining computer-aided design and with data management and collaboration tooling. Tell our viewers a little bit more about Onshape and why this space is growing so fast. >> I'm happy to do that. Onshape is the first cloud native, meaning it was built in the cloud for the cloud product development platform. And what that really means is it enables product designers, engineers from across the globe to create and collaborate on the development of any type of product. From mundane, household goods to very complex technology for the automotive industry. And it was founded actually by a group of folks who built the largest player in this market already. Won't be named. And they knew , intimately, the challenges that customers were facing with the old technology, which was the only technology available, when the previous set of products was built. So that was the motivation. It's very centered on the mission of the customers and what they're trying to do. And the way that we see it as is our role is just to give them a better set of tools so they can enable, to enable them to accomplish their mission of creating better products for a better world. >> So in terms of the challenges that customers face in this realm, can you dig in a little deeper there and talk, talk about what customers are trying to accomplish here? >> Well, they were trying to create, in whatever sector they work, the best possible products for their end customers, sets of customers. And the challenges are it's hard enough to ideate and design, but historically they've been restricted in the way that they had to work, because the technology that was available. The second generation of technology that most people are using today, wasn't built for global collaboration and most organizations, even if they're a small business, are collaborating with suppliers outside of the organization who are across the globe, different time zones, different locations. And certainly, for larger companies, you know, you have global design teams and, you know, their ability to work in real time on the set, the same set of models, same set of data is restricted. So we really unlock that challenge for them and just give them the power to work the way that they want to for the modern era. >> Empowering these people to collaborate. And as you said in real time, which is so critical, right now. >> Correct. So we've seen the SaaSification in CRM and also in human resources, in other things. Is this product lifecycle management, is this just a logical extension of those trends, in your mind? >> It is. I mean, again, this is, you know, Onshape itself was founded because this was an industry that hadn't seen much innovation in, really, decades on the product development side. And the team set out to build, you know, the only SaaS native product in the market. And we're seeing an increased adoption of the platform. Really was a natural extension of a macro trend called digital transformation, right? That's something this entire sector has been focused on. Manufacturers and product development teams have been focused on transforming their businesses and in every facet, whether it's, you know, enabling engineers to work from anywhere, if it's bringing additive manufacturing, 3D printing into the supply chain, robotics and factory automation on the factory floor, digitization of the supply chain, et cetera. You know, that macro trend has been going on for some time. And the industry, because it's so complex, has sort of been laggard in the adoption. And some are more mature along that digital transformation curve than others. Or what you saw with the pandemic was an absolute accelerated need to make movement and to become more mature, because you, really, you couldn't even work. You couldn't work the way that you had traditionally for 20 years. And it requires a completely different set of tools to accomplish the same set of goals. And, you know, we were built for the future and the future was accelerated by, you know, external crisis that no one could predict, but it is opening manufacturer's and design teams eyes to what they could accomplish if they work differently. >> So, as you're saying, a lot of companies are under a lot of stress and strain because of the pandemic, but it's also been a time for a lot of innovation and ingenuity and resourcefulness. And you said yourself that the pandemic has been almost a forcing mechanism to make companies make changes that maybe they had planned to make within the next five or 10 years. And they're having to make them now, out of necessity. So what kinds of products are you seeing customers making that's particularly interesting, in relation to the COVID-19 pandemic? >> Yeah. You know, our, again, the vision for us, which is it's a customer centric vision was always to give them something, our customer, a platform to enable them to make better products for a better world. That's our, our joint mission. And so pre-pandemic I described a little bit, you know, there's everything from the mundane to light switches. And lighting to really, really cool tech, you know. You know, battery packs for electric vehicles and even more socially conscious products like farm bots and affordable prosthetics. What has been incredible during the COVID crisis is engineers around the world have really come together and you know, focused on areas where they could help and particularly in the healthcare sector, which has been under siege with patients and was facing a shortage of supplies and in particular personal protective equipment, PPE and ventilators. And we watched these groups of teams, you know, sometimes formally under makeshift non-profits, and sometimes just informally with groups of engineers in their local community. You know, really thinking outside of the box and doing things like retrofitting scuba gear to be a medical grade masks and delivering those to their local hospital care providers. Designing, you know, face shields that could be easily manufactured with 3D printing locally and source and deliver. And folks taking all their equipment and retrofitting it to be ventilators, you know, and again, you know, mass manufacturing them as, as fast as they could in their local communities. It was really at the local level and you're seeing it globally. And it was incredible to watch the power of this customer community and what they can do. It was a living example of what we call innovation for good. >> Well, I definitely want to talk more about innovation for good, but of course, there's that Winston Churchill quote, never let it never let a crisis go to waste. It sounds as though the way you're talking about the way these engineers have come together, it's really inspiring. And it sounds, they got really creative. Do you think that this will be a lasting trend or does it take a crisis situation to have these people come together to solve these really difficult problems? >> No, this is a group of folks who solve problems every day and that's their persona. It's their passion and, you know, our role in their lives is to give them better capabilities to do that. It was just an opportunity for a set of professionals who are uniquely qualified to solve a problem in real time to come together. But it did show that what the modern workforce should look like for the sector. It showed how mint product design teams and manufacturers could collaborate globally, all right? Some of these groups of non-profits, were pulled together globally, overnight. You know, engineers who've never met each other, working across time zones on products. And then also with the advancements in manufacturing, additive manufacturing, 3D printing, you could build things locally, right? So maybe you don't need a global supply chain. It really was an illustration of how the industry needs to rethink how it designs, how it works and how it delivers products. There's ways to do things on a global basis more quickly, there's ways to source things locally and rethink supply chains. So it was really an inflection moment for a group of folks who've been trying to advance really better products for a better world, for some time. >> How do you see this confluence of CAD and PLM workflow affecting society in the coming decades? >> It really comes back to the joint mission that, you know, Onshape has with our customers and everybody in our space has with our customers. Developing better products for a better world. The idea of bringing those technologies together was integrating CAD with the management capabilities and a SaaS platform was all about enabling product teams to more easily collaborate on designs with colleagues or external vendors in real time, across locations, across time zones and not being inhibited by legacy technology. And this means that they can spend more time iterating on actual ideas and actually doing designing and focused on innovation and, and less time on the menial tasks that the former technology required of them. You know, administrative tasks, always tasks in every sector, inhibit innovation and good work. And, you know, because that's been removed what you're going to see as a better outcome at the end of the product development process. And that benefits everyone because as we've, as I said, they're working a lot of these folks are working on socially conscious products. They're all working on products that make our daily lives better as consumers, as patients and as customers. >> And making things better for society too. And importantly, they're enjoying their jobs more, which leads to bet better engagement and better productivity too. >> Correct. No employee likes to show up and have headaches with the way that you're supposed to work. And it's never been a driver of employee engagement. And for types of employees like this, who have this intellectual curiosity, you know, for the ability to expand that the scope of the team that they'd work on to give them more access to other intellectuals and professionals like themselves, and other times zones across the globe, you know, all brought together in a singular technology platform and empowered by it. You know, it is really a new way of thinking in a new way of working. Which yes, it drives our employee engagement, because this is, it suits their their persona and it suits how they want to work here. And that's a good thing for everybody because when employees are showing up fully engaged and fully empowered to do their best work, you have a better outcome. >> And excited to solve these important problems. You know, we talk a lot on the Cube about tech for good, and this is the theme innovation for good, which has been a theme of our conversation here today. And it's also an event that the Cube is co-hosting with you next month. The event is December 9th. What can people look forward to at the innovation for good event? Who should attend? What's in it for them? Give us the lowdown. >> Yeah. I mean, everybody who's involved in the product development and manufacturing sector, anyone who's involved in the development and the design and the development and manufacturing of products will benefit from the content that they'll see. And it's educators, it's professionals. You're going to hear from actual customers who are doing this, who are doing the actual work. You know, everything we do in Onshape is about the customer. You know, we enable the great work of other people, just to be very clear. And so you're going to hear from technology companies, aerospace companies, defense companies and academia. What they're doing to solve these challenges, what they're doing to leverage technology, to drive innovation for good. And you're going to walk away with insights of what you can do differently inside your workforce. >> So it will be actual news you can use and bring back to your company and apply the lessons that you're learning at the event. >> Correct. >> Excellent. Well, Clint Poole, a really, a pleasure to talk to you. By all means, join us on December 9th for Onshape's innovation for good event. We'll put the link in the description of this video. So please register and add the event to your calendar. We hope to see you there. Clint, again, thank you so much for coming on the Cube. Real pleasure talking to you. >> My pleasure. Hope it really joins us. >> Indeed. >> I'm Rebecca Knight. Stay tuned for more of the Cube Virtual.

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE conversation. >> Hi, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE Studios here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here for coverage of AWS Public Sector Summit. This is theCUBE Virtual with our quarantine crew going out and covering the latest posts of the Virtual Summit where our next guest is Matthew Cornelius, Executive Director for the Alliance for Digital Innovation. Matthew, thanks for joining me today for part of AWS virtual Public Sector Summit. >> That's great, thanks, John. Appreciate you having me. >> I know that John Wood and I have been talking about this organization and some of the ambition and the relevance of it. So I think it's a super important story. I want to get your thoughts on this in an unpack kind of the mission but for starters, tell us what is the Alliance for Digital Innovation? When were you formed? What's the mission? What do you do? >> Sure. Yeah, so ADI was formed about two years ago, to create a new advocacy group that could focus explicitly on getting cloud forward, commercial, highly innovative companies into the public sector. So the government technology space has traditionally been dominated by a lot of legacy vendors, folks that are very happy with vendor lock-in, folks that have an outdated business model that would not suffice in the commercial sector. So why does it have to be that way for government and ADI started with about eight members has since grown. We're approaching two dozen now. So we've had a lot of growth and I think a lot of the response that you've seen in the public sector, especially to the COVID crisis, and the response and relief efforts have made this organization and our mission more relevant now than ever. There's no way that you can go back to the previous way of doing business, so adopting all these commercials technologies, changing your business model, changing your operating model, and really use an emerging technology to deliver all these missions services is critical. >> You know, one of the things that I've been reporting on for many, many years is this idea of modernization. Certainly on the commercial side with cloud, it's been really important and Amazon has done extremely well, from a business standpoint. We all know that where that's going. The issue that's happening now is the modernization is kicking in. So the government has started to move down this track, we've seen the procurement start to get more modernized. Move from buying manuals to actually having the modern stuff and in comes COVID-19. You couldn't have accelerated, you couldn't have pulled the future forward fast enough to an already struggling federal government, in my opinion, and I've talked to many people in DC and the young crowd saying, "Hey, old government get modern", and then this comes. It's almost like throwing the rock on your back and you're sinking. This is a problem. What's your take on this? Because you're trying to solve a problem with modernizing, but now you got COVID-19 coming in, it compounds the complexity and the challenge. What's your chosen reaction to that? >> Yeah, so it there's a multifaceted response to this. So part of it is what I like to say is the government's done more in the past four months than it's done in the past 14 years when it comes to modernization and adopting commercial capabilities. I think with individual agencies, you've seen those those agencies, I will name a couple like the Small Business Administration, the General Services Administration, where I used to work, folks that were already heavily invested in cloud, heavily invested in modern digital tools and modern digital processes, they were able to weather this storm and to deal especially in SPS case, with a dramatic increase in their mission. I mean, running the paycheck Protection Program is something unlike an organization that size has ever seen. And from a technology standpoint, they have a lot of good stories that are worth telling and I think it's because they were so cloud forward. I think one of the other interesting points that as really come to light over the past four months is so many of the issues around modernization were cultural. Now, of course, there are some that are legal, there's acquisition, there's the way agencies are appropriated and financed and the way they can spend their money, but by and large, all of these agencies had to move to maximum telework, they had to get rid of all of these outdated on premise processes, these paper based processes that they had. And although surely there were some bumps in the road, and that was not easy, especially for these folks working around the clock to keep their agencies operational to make sure citizens are getting the services, they need, especially during this crisis, I think there's a lot of great success stories that you see there and because of this, no one even if they're allowed to go back into the office or when they're allowed to go back in the office, people are going to understand how much more productive they are, how much more technologically capable they are. And that's not just CIO officers that's people on programs in the front lines delivering services that mission response. We've really seen it powerful word over the last four months. >> You know, Matthew, I've been very vocal given that I'm kind of the old guy, get off my lawn kind of commentary. (Matthew laughs) I've seen that the waves and I remember coming in when I was in my late 20s and 30s old school enterprises, the commercial business wouldn't do business with startups, you had to be approved or you were in entrenched vendors supporting those things and then in comes the web, in comes the 90s, and then the web came there's more agile, you had startups that were more open and working with commercial vendors. It seems like we're seeing that movie play out in public sector where you have the entrenched incumbents, they got the town wired, who knows what's going on. It's been called the Beltway bandits for years and Tris and Curson and I talk about that all the time, but now the government can be agile, and startups need to be product to these new solutions, like whether it's video conferencing or virtual events, things like we do. New solutions are coming that need to come in, it's hard. Can you share how a company whether it's a startup or a new solution can come in and work with the government? Because the perception is, it's impossible. >> Yeah, and part of why ADI exist is to break that down. One to recruit more members to join us to really help drive commercial innovation in the government. And we have some very large companies like AWS and others that do an awful lot of work with the government. And we have a lot of smaller startups that are interested in dipping their toe in there. And so we try to help them demystify how it is that you go about working with the government. I think there have been again, some good success stories on this one. I think that there are lots of places like the Department of Defense, a lot of the folks in the intelligence community, some other agencies, they have authorities, they have partnership programs that make it easier for folks to adopt commercial innovation. They have unique authorities like other transaction authorities or commercial solutions offerings that really lowers the barrier for new technologies to be piloted and potentially scaled inside government. But that's not the case across lots of agencies, and that's why we advocate broadly for getting the acquisition process to move at the speed of technology. If there are good authorities that work in some agencies, let's get into everybody, let's have everybody try it because the people in the agencies, the acquisition professionals, the technical professionals, they have to be committed to working with industry, so the industry is committed to working with them. And as a former federal employee, myself, I worked at the Office of Management and Budget and the General Service Administration, I always was upset at the fact that the government is very good at speaking to industry, but not very good at working with industry and listening, and so we see a lot more of that now and I think part of that is a response to COVID, but it's also the recognition that you can't do things the way you used to do it, the traditional butts in seats contracting business model where everybody in between a federal employee and that outsourced service provider. You don't need all those people there, you can do it yourself and be just as effective and get all the real outcomes you're looking for with commercial innovation. >> It sounds like ADI your priorities is to make things go fast and be modernized. So I have to ask you, the question that's on my mind, probably on everyone's mind is, what are the key conversations or messages you provide to the agencies, heads or members of Congress to get them excited about this, to take action to support what you're doing? Because let's face it, most of these guys up on the Hill are girls now, most of them have a law backgrounds, they don't have a tech background. So that's a complaint that I've heard in the hallways in DC is, the guy making all the decisions doesn't know jack about tech. >> No, it's it's a great point. When we advocate up on the Hill there's a law that I don't think a lot of folks pay in awful lot of attention to. Everybody likes the nice new things that are coming from Capitol Hill but there's a great piece of legislation from 1994 for the Federal Acquisition Streamlining Act. We actually did some tremendous original research at ADI, about a year ago and released an interesting report that got a lot of uptick here. And most people don't even understand that the law requires you to do market research and see if there's a commercial product or service that meets your need before you go down building any sort of specific requirements or building out some sort of long procurement process. And so a lot of what we're doing is educating folks, not just on what the law says, but on why these can lead to better outcomes for agencies. I mean, I truly believe that most of the folks in government whether they're technical folks or not want to do the best thing, but if you're a company trying to do business with the government, you have to go through what is often a five or six or sometimes 10 person human supply chain. There's someone in government who wants your solution because it addresses a particular problem, and between them, and you the company, there's all sorts of additional bureaucratic overlays and folks that are not technical, that have other incentives and other priorities that don't always lead to the most optable procurement outcome. So there's an educational component, there's a cultural component. We need more champions inside government. We need not just better technology that's wanting to work with the government but we also need smarter, better people inside that understand the technology and can get to it the way they need to get to it so that they can deliver mission. >> As someone like me who's in the technology business, who loves entrepreneurship, loves business, loves the impact of technology, I'm not a public servant, and I'm not at that up to speed on all the government kind of inside baseball, so I kind of look at it a little bit differently. I've always been a big proponent of public private partnerships that's been kicked around in the past. It's kind of like digital transformation, kind of cliche, but there's been some pockets of success there, but look at the future. The role of influence and the commercial impact just China, for instance, just riffing the other day with someone around China doesn't actually go through government channels for how they deal with the United States. There's a little commercial, they have intellectual property issues going on, people saying they're stealing, they're investing in the United States. So there's a commercial influence. So as the government has to look at these commercial influences, they then have to modernize their workforce, their workloads, their applications, their workplaces. The work is not just workloads, it's workplace, workforce. So if you had your way, how would you like to see the landscape of the federal technology piece of this look like in five years? Because there's now new influence vectors coming in that are outside the channels of federal purview. >> No, it's a great question, and I appreciate you bringing up the other complexities around nation state actors in China and everything else. Obviously, supply chain security and being able to deal with legitimate security threat is critical when you're inside government. I mean, your first sort of purpose is to do no harm and to make sure that you're keeping citizen data, whether it's classified or unclassified secure. We think at ADI that there's a great balance to be heard there and part of that is if you're working with American companies, and you're adopting the best and most agile and most innovative commercial technology that America has to offer, that's going to make our industry more competitive and position it better in the commercial market and it's also going to make government agencies more effective. They're going to be able to meet their mission faster, they're going to be able to lower costs, they're going to be able to shift what are going to be tighter and tighter budgets over the next four or five or 10 years to other areas because they're not wasting so much money on these old systems and this old business processes, this old way of doing business. So you that is one of the balances that we have to take from an advocacy standpoint. We have to understand that supply chain security, cybersecurity are real issues, but security can also be an enabler to innovation and not an impediment and if a lot of the commercial capabilities that are coming out now and a lot of these companies like the ones ADI represents, want to do business with the government, and their commercial products can inherently be more secure than a lot of these old bespoke systems or old business practices. That's good for not just federal agencies, that's good for citizens and that's good for our national defense and our economy. >> You know, I look at our landscape and being an American born here, looking at other emerging countries, certainly China's one example of becoming very world digital native, even other areas where 5G and then telecom has made great internet access, you're seeing digital native countries, so as we modernize, and our lawmakers have more tech savvy and things become digital native, the commercial enabling piece is a huge thing, having that enabling technology, because it creates wealth and jobs and other things so you got three things, digital native country, enabling technologies to promote good and wealth and engine of economic value, and then societal impact. What's your take on those three kind of pillars? Because we're kind of as a country coming into this world order and look at the younger generation, they're all screaming for it, we're digital native, and all kinds of arbitrage there, fake news, misinformation, then you got enabling technology with the cloud, and then you get societal benefits, future of elections and everything else. So what's your thoughts? 'Cause it sounds like you're thinking about these things in your Digital Innovation Alliance. >> Yeah, absolutely. The one thing I will say and as someone that was a former federal employee, the one thing we need more of whether you're on the executive branch or in Congress, we need more people that like you said, are digital natives that understand technology that also want to be inside government either running programs or dealing with policy issues. We need as many good new ideas and folks with real, legitimate, necessary and current skills in there. Because if you don't understand the technology, you don't understand, like you said the societal impacts, you don't understand the business impacts of government decision making and the government can drive markets. I mean, especially in the middle of Coronavirus, we're spending trillions of dollars to keep folks afloat and we're using technology primarily as a way to make that happen. So the first thing I would say is, we need, we continue, need to continue, sorry, we need to continue to recruit and retain and train the best and the brightest to go into government service because it is a joy and a privilege to serve government and we've got to have better smarter technical people in there or we're going to keep getting these same outcomes, like you've mentioned over the past 30 plus years. >> I think we're in a JFK moment where John F. Kennedy said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, "what you can do for your country". Moment in the modern era and that was the 60s, that we saw the revolution of that happen there, we're kind of having a digital version of that now where it's an opportunity for people to get involved, younger generations and make change rather than arguing about it. So I feel fairly strongly about this so I think this is an opportunity. Your reaction to that? >> No, that's a fantastic point. I hadn't really thought about the JFK resemblance. From an industry standpoint, I think that is what is happening with these emerging technology companies and even some of the large companies. They understand that this is their way to contribute to the country whose R&D dollars and these public private partnerships helped a lot of these folks to grow and become the companies they are now. At least started them down that road. And so for us at the Alliance for Digital Innovation and the companies that are a part of us that is sort of purposeful to who we are. We do what we do and we want the government to build stronger relationships and to use this technology, because it does serve mission. I mean, we exclusively focus on the public sector. Focus of these companies and it's tremendously valuable when you see a federal agency who spent five or 10 years and hundreds of millions of dollars and still not solving a problem and then they can pick up the commercial off the shelf technology from a company that we represent, and can solve that problem for $5 million and do it in six months. I mean, that's truly rewarding and whether you're inside government or out, we should all celebrate that and we should find ways to make that the norm and not the exception. >> And take all that hate and violence and challenge it towards voting and getting involved. I'm a big proponent of that. Matthew, thank you so much for taking the time. I'll give you the last word. Take a minute to put a plug in for the Alliance for Digital Innovation. Who are the charter members, who's involved? I know John Wood from Telos is a charter member. Who's involved, how did it all start? >> Yeah. >> Give it taste of the culture and who's involved. >> Yeah, thanks, John. So, yeah, like you mentioned, we have tremendous members, AWS is obviously a great partner. We have a lot of big companies that are involved, Google Cloud, Salesforce, Palantir, Palo Alto Networks. We also have great midsize and small companies. You think of Telos, you think of SAP NS2 and Iron Net, you think of Saildrone. We've got companies that whose technology product and service offerings run the range for government needs. We all come together because we understand that the government can and should and must do better to buy and leverage commercial technology to meet mission outcomes. So that is what we focus on. And, frankly, we have seen tremendous growth since COVID started. I mean, we are 24 members now we were at 18, just four months ago, but I like to say that ADI is an organization whose mission is more important and more resonant now, not just in the technology, parts of government, but at the secretary level at the Chief Acquisition Officer level, in Congress. We are folks that are trying to paint the future, we're doing a positive vision for change for what government can and should be. And for all of those other technology companies that want to be a part of that, that understand that the government can do better, and that has ideas for making it work better and for getting commercial innovation into government faster, to solve mission outcomes and to increase that trust between citizens and government, we want you. So if folks are interested in joining you got people that are watching out there, you can go to alliance4digitalinnovation.org. We're always accepting interested applicants and we look forward to continuing this message, showing some real outcomes and helping the government for the next year, five years, 10 years, really mature and modernize faster and more effectively than it has before. >> Great mission, love what you're doing. I think the future democracy depends on these new models to be explored, candidly and out in the open, and it's a great mission, we support that. Thanks for taking the time, Matthew. Appreciate it. >> Thanks, John. Have a great Public Sector Summit. >> Okay, this is theCUBE coverage of AWS Public Sector Virtual Summit. I'm John Furrier here in theCUBE Virtual. Thanks for watching and stay tuned for more coverage. (gentle music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's the queue with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome, welcome, welcome to DockerCon 2020. We got over 50,000 people registered so there's clearly a ton of interest in the world of Docker and Eddie's as I like to call it. And we've assembled a power panel of Open Source and cloud native experts to talk about where things stand in 2020 and where we're headed. I'm Shawn Conley, I'll be the moderator for today's panel. I'm also a proud alum of JBoss, Red Hat, SpringSource, VMware and Hortonworks and I'm broadcasting from my hometown of Philly. Our panelists include; Michelle Noorali, Senior Software Engineer at Microsoft, joining us from Atlanta, Georgia. We have Kelsey Hightower, Principal developer advocate at Google Cloud, joining us from Washington State and we have Chris Aniszczyk, CTO CIO at the CNCF, joining us from Austin, Texas. So I think we have the country pretty well covered. Thank you all for spending time with us on this power panel. Chris, I'm going to start with you, let's dive right in. You've been in the middle of the Docker netease wave since the beginning with a clear focus on building a better world through open collaboration. What are your thoughts on how the Open Source landscape has evolved over the past few years? Where are we in 2020? And where are we headed from both community and a tech perspective? Just curious to get things sized up? >> Sure, when CNCF started about roughly four, over four years ago, the technology mostly focused on just the things around Kubernetes, monitoring communities with technology like Prometheus, and I think in 2020 and the future, we definitely want to move up the stack. So there's a lot of tools being built on the periphery now. So there's a lot of tools that handle running different types of workloads on Kubernetes. So things like Uvert and Shay runs VMs on Kubernetes, which is crazy, not just containers. You have folks that, Microsoft experimenting with a project called Kruslet which is trying to run web assembly workloads natively on Kubernetes. So I think what we've seen now is more and more tools built around the periphery, while the core of Kubernetes has stabilized. So different technologies and spaces such as security and different ways to run different types of workloads. And at least that's kind of what I've seen. >> So do you have a fair amount of vendors as well as end users still submitting in projects in, is there still a pretty high volume? >> Yeah, we have 48 total projects in CNCF right now and Michelle could speak a little bit more to this being on the DOC, the pipeline for new projects is quite extensive and it covers all sorts of spaces from two service meshes to security projects and so on. So it's ever so expanding and filling in gaps in that cloud native landscape that we have. >> Awesome. Michelle, Let's head to you. But before we actually dive in, let's talk a little glory days. A rumor has it that you are the Fifth Grade Kickball Championship team captain. (Michelle laughs) Are the rumors true? >> They are, my speech at the end of the year was the first talk I ever gave. But yeah, it was really fun. I wasn't captain 'cause I wasn't really great at anything else apart from constantly cheer on the team. >> A little better than my eighth grade Spelling Champ Award so I think I'd rather have the kickball. But you've definitely, spent a lot of time leading an Open Source, you've been across many projects for many years. So how does the art and science of collaboration, inclusivity and teamwork vary? 'Cause you're involved in a variety of efforts, both in the CNCF and even outside of that. And then what are some tips for expanding the tent of Open Source projects? >> That's a good question. I think it's about transparency. Just come in and tell people what you really need to do and clearly articulate your problem, more clearly articulate your problem and why you can't solve it with any other solution, the more people are going to understand what you're trying to do and be able to collaborate with you better. What I love about Open Source is that where I've seen it succeed is where incentives of different perspectives and parties align and you're just transparent about what you want. So you can collaborate where it makes sense, even if you compete as a company with another company in the same area. So I really like that, but I just feel like transparency and honesty is what it comes down to and clearly communicating those objectives. >> Yeah, and the various foundations, I think one of the things that I've seen, particularly Apache Software Foundation and others is the notion of checking your badge at the door. Because the competition might be between companies, but in many respects, you have engineers across many companies that are just kicking butt with the tech they contribute, claiming victory in one way or the other might make for interesting marketing drama. But, I think that's a little bit of the challenge. In some of the, standards-based work you're doing I know with CNI and some other things, are they similar, are they different? How would you compare and contrast into something a little more structured like CNCF? >> Yeah, so most of what I do is in the CNCF, but there's specs and there's projects. I think what CNCF does a great job at is just iterating to make it an easier place for developers to collaborate. You can ask the CNCF for basically whatever you need, and they'll try their best to figure out how to make it happen. And we just continue to work on making the processes are clearer and more transparent. And I think in terms of specs and projects, those are such different collaboration environments. Because if you're in a project, you have to say, "Okay, I want this feature or I want this bug fixed." But when you're in a spec environment, you have to think a little outside of the box and like, what framework do you want to work in? You have to think a little farther ahead in terms of is this solution or this decision we're going to make going to last for the next how many years? You have to get more of a buy in from all of the key stakeholders and maintainers. So it's a little bit of a longer process, I think. But what's so beautiful is that you have this really solid, standard or interface that opens up an ecosystem and allows people to build things that you could never have even imagined or dreamed of so-- >> Gotcha. So I'm Kelsey, we'll head over to you as your focus is on, developer advocate, you've been in the cloud native front lines for many years. Today developers are faced with a ton of moving parts, spanning containers, functions, Cloud Service primitives, including container services, server-less platforms, lots more, right? I mean, there's just a ton of choice. How do you help developers maintain a minimalist mantra in the face of such a wealth of choice? I think minimalism I hear you talk about that periodically, I know you're a fan of that. How do you pass that on and your developer advocacy in your day to day work? >> Yeah, I think, for most developers, most of this is not really the top of mind for them, is something you may see a post on Hacker News, and you might double click into it. Maybe someone on your team brought one of these tools in and maybe it leaks up into your workflow so you're forced to think about it. But for most developers, they just really want to continue writing code like they've been doing. And the best of these projects they'll never see. They just work, they get out of the way, they help them with log in, they help them run their application. But for most people, this isn't the core idea of the job for them. For people in operations, on the other hand, maybe these components fill a gap. So they look at a lot of this stuff that you see in the CNCF and Open Source space as number one, various companies or teams sharing the way that they do things, right? So these are ideas that are put into the Open Source, some of them will turn into products, some of them will just stay as projects that had mutual benefit for multiple people. But for the most part, it's like walking through an ion like Home Depot. You pick the tools that you need, you can safely ignore the ones you don't need, and maybe something looks interesting and maybe you study it to see if that if you have a problem. And for most people, if you don't have that problem that that tool solves, you should be happy. No one needs every project and I think that's where the foundation for confusion. So my main job is to help people not get stuck and confused in LAN and just be pragmatic and just use the tools that work for 'em. >> Yeah, and you've spent the last little while in the server-less space really diving into that area, compare and contrast, I guess, what you found there, minimalist approach, who are you speaking to from a server-less perspective versus that of the broader CNCF? >> The thing that really pushed me over, I was teaching my daughter how to make a website. So she's on her Chromebook, making a website, and she's hitting 127.0.0.1, and it looks like geo cities from the 90s but look, she's making website. And she wanted her friends to take a look. So she copied and paste from her browser 127.0.0.1 and none of her friends could pull it up. So this is the point where every parent has to cross that line and say, "Hey, do I really need to sit down "and teach my daughter about Linux "and Docker and Kubernetes." That isn't her main goal, her goal was to just launch her website in a way that someone else can see it. So we got Firebase installed on her laptop, she ran one command, Firebase deploy. And our site was up in a few minutes, and she sent it over to her friend and there you go, she was off and running. The whole server-less movement has that philosophy as one of the stated goal that needs to be the workflow. So, I think server-less is starting to get closer and closer, you start to see us talk about and Chris mentioned this earlier, we're moving up the stack. Where we're going to up the stack, the North Star there is feel where you get the focus on what you're doing, and not necessarily how to do it underneath. And I think server-less is not quite there yet but every type of workload, stateless web apps check, event driven workflows check, but not necessarily for things like machine learning and some other workloads that more traditional enterprises want to run so there's still work to do there. So server-less for me, serves as the North Star for why all these Projects exists for people that may have to roll their own platform, to provide the experience. >> So, Chris, on a related note, with what we were just talking about with Kelsey, what's your perspective on the explosion of the cloud native landscape? There's, a ton of individual projects, each can be used separately, but in many cases, they're like Lego blocks and used together. So things like the surface mesh interface, standardizing interfaces, so things can snap together more easily, I think, are some of the approaches but are you doing anything specifically to encourage this cross fertilization and collaboration of bug ability, because there's just a ton of projects, not only at the CNCF but outside the CNCF that need to plug in? >> Yeah, I mean, a lot of this happens organically. CNCF really provides of the neutral home where companies, competitors, could trust each other to build interesting technology. We don't force integration or collaboration, it happens on its own. We essentially allow the market to decide what a successful project is long term or what an integration is. We have a great Technical Oversight Committee that helps shepherd the overall technical vision for the organization and sometimes steps in and tries to do the right thing when it comes to potentially integrating a project. Previously, we had this issue where there was a project called Open Tracing, and an effort called Open Census, which is basically trying to standardize how you're going to deal with metrics, on the tree and so on in a cloud native world that we're essentially competing with each other. The CNCF TC and committee came together and merged those projects into one parent ever called Open Elementary and so that to me is a case study of how our committee helps, bridges things. But we don't force things, we essentially want our community of end users and vendors to decide which technology is best in the long term, and we'll support that. >> Okay, awesome. And, Michelle, you've been focused on making distributed systems digestible, which to me is about simplifying things. And so back when Docker arrived on the scene, some people referred to it as developer dopamine, which I love that term, because it's simplified a bunch of crufty stuff for developers and actually helped them focus on doing their job, writing code, delivering code, what's happening in the community to help developers wire together multi-part modern apps in a way that's elegant, digestible, feels like a dopamine rush? >> Yeah, one of the goals of the(mumbles) project was to make it easier to deploy an application on Kubernetes so that you could see what the finished product looks like. And then dig into all of the things that that application is composed of, all the resources. So we're really passionate about this kind of stuff for a while now. And I love seeing projects that come into the space that have this same goal and just iterate and make things easier. I think we have a ways to go still, I think a lot of the iOS developers and JS developers I get to talk to don't really care that much about Kubernetes. They just want to, like Kelsey said, just focus on their code. So one of the projects that I really like working with is Tilt gives you this dashboard in your CLI, aggregates all your logs from your applications, And it kind of watches your application changes, and reconfigures those changes in Kubernetes so you can see what's going on, it'll catch errors, anything with a dashboard I love these days. So Yali is like a metrics dashboard that's integrated with STL, a service graph of your service mesh, and lets you see the metrics running there. I love that, I love that dashboard so much. Linkerd has some really good service graph images, too. So anything that helps me as an end user, which I'm not technically an end user, but me as a person who's just trying to get stuff up and running and working, see the state of the world easily and digest them has been really exciting to see. And I'm seeing more and more dashboards come to light and I'm very excited about that. >> Yeah, as part of the DockerCon just as a person who will be attending some of the sessions, I'm really looking forward to see where DockerCompose is going, I know they opened up the spec to broader input. I think your point, the good one, is there's a bit more work to really embrace the wealth of application artifacts that compose a larger application. So there's definitely work the broader community needs to lean in on, I think. >> I'm glad you brought that up, actually. Compose is something that I should have mentioned and I'm glad you bring that up. I want to see programming language libraries, integrate with the Compose spec. I really want to see what happens with that I think is great that they open that up and made that a spec because obviously people really like using Compose. >> Excellent. So Kelsey, I'd be remiss if I didn't touch on your January post on changelog entitled, "Monoliths are the Future." Your post actually really resonated with me. My son works for a software company in Austin, Texas. So your hometown there, Chris. >> Yeah. >> Shout out to Will and the chorus team. His development work focuses on adding modern features via micro services as extensions to the core monolith that the company was founded on. So just share some thoughts on monoliths, micro services. And also, what's deliverance dopamine from your perspective more broadly, but people usually phrase as monoliths versus micro services, but I get the sense you don't believe it's either or. >> Yeah, I think most companies from the pragmatic so one of their argument is one of pragmatism. Most companies have trouble designing any app, monolith, deployable or microservices architecture. And then these things evolve over time. Unless you're really careful, it's really hard to know how to slice these things. So taking an idea or a problem and just knowing how to perfectly compartmentalize it into individual deployable component, that's hard for even the best people to do. And double down knowing the actual solution to the particular problem. A lot of problems people are solving they're solving for the first time. It's really interesting, our industry in general, a lot of people who work in it have never solved the particular problem that they're trying to solve for the first time. So that's interesting. The other part there is that most of these tools that are here to help are really only at the infrastructure layer. We're talking freeways and bridges and toll bridges, but there's nothing that happens in the actual developer space right there in memory. So the libraries that interface to the structure logging, the libraries that deal with rate limiting, the libraries that deal with authorization, can this person make this query with this user ID? A lot of those things are still left for developers to figure out on their own. So while we have things like the brunettes and fluid D, we have all of these tools to deploy apps into those target, most developers still have the problem of everything you do above that line. And to be honest, the majority of the complexity has to be resolved right there in the app. That's the thing that's taking requests directly from the user. And this is where maybe as an industry, we're over-correcting. So we had, you said you come from the JBoss world, I started a lot of my Cisco administration, there's where we focus a little bit more on the actual application needs, maybe from a router that as well. But now what we're seeing is things like Spring Boot, start to offer a little bit more integration points in the application space itself. So I think the biggest parts that are missing now are what are the frameworks people will use for authorization? So you have projects like OPA, Open Policy Agent for those that are new to that, it gives you this very low level framework, but you still have to understand the concepts around, what does it mean to allow someone to do something and one missed configuration, all your security goes out of the window. So I think for most developers this is where the next set of challenges lie, if not actually the original challenge. So for some people, they were able to solve most of these problems with virtualization, run some scripts, virtualize everything and be fine. And monoliths were okay for that. For some reason, we've thrown pragmatism out of the window and some people are saying the only way to solve these problems is by breaking the app into 1000 pieces. Forget the fact that you had trouble managing one piece, you're going to somehow find the ability to manage 1000 pieces with these tools underneath but still not solving the actual developer problems. So this is where you've seen it already with a couple of popular blog posts from other companies. They cut too deep. They're going from 2000, 3000 microservices back to maybe 100 or 200. So to my world, it's going to be not just one monolith, but end up maybe having 10 or 20 monoliths that maybe reflect the organization that you have versus the architectural pattern that you're at. >> I view it as like a constellation of stars and planets, et cetera. Where you you might have a star that has a variety of, which is a monolith, and you have a variety of sort of planetary microservices that float around it. But that's reality, that's the reality of modern applications, particularly if you're not starting from a clean slate. I mean your points, a good one is, in many respects, I think the infrastructure is code movement has helped automate a bit of the deployment of the platform. I've been personally focused on app development JBoss as well as springsSource. The Spring team I know that tech pretty well over the years 'cause I was involved with that. So I find that James Governor's discussion of progressive delivery really resonates with me, as a developer, not so much as an infrastructure Deployer. So continuous delivery is more of infrastructure notice notion, progressive delivery, feature flags, those types of things, or app level, concepts, minimizing the blast radius of your, the new features you're deploying, that type of stuff, I think begins to speak to the pain of application delivery. So I'll guess I'll put this up. Michelle, I might aim it to you, and then we'll go around the horn, what are your thoughts on the progressive delivery area? How could that potentially begin to impact cloud native over 2020? I'm looking for some rallying cries that move up the stack and give a set of best practices, if you will. And I think James Governor of RedMonk opened on something that's pretty important. >> Yeah, I think it's all about automating all that stuff that you don't really know about. Like Flagger is an awesome progressive delivery tool, you can just deploy something, and people have been asking for so many years, ever since I've been in this space, it's like, "How do I do AB deployment?" "How do I do Canary?" "How do I execute these different deployment strategies?" And Flagger is a really good example, for example, it's a really good way to execute these deployment strategies but then, make sure that everything's happening correctly via observing metrics, rollback if you need to, so you don't just throw your whole system. I think it solves the problem and allows you to take risks but also keeps you safe in that you can be confident as you roll out your changes that it all works, it's metrics driven. So I'm just really looking forward to seeing more tools like that. And dashboards, enable that kind of functionality. >> Chris, what are your thoughts in that progressive delivery area? >> I mean, CNCF alone has a lot of projects in that space, things like Argo that are tackling it. But I want to go back a little bit to your point around developer dopamine, as someone that probably spent about a decade of his career focused on developer tooling and in fact, if you remember the Eclipse IDE and that whole integrated experience, I was blown away recently by a demo from GitHub. They have something called code spaces, which a long time ago, I was trying to build development environments that essentially if you were an engineer that joined a team recently, you could basically get an environment quickly start it with everything configured, source code checked out, environment properly set up. And that was a very hard problem. This was like before container days and so on and to see something like code spaces where you'd go to a repo or project, open it up, behind the scenes they have a container that is set up for the environment that you need to build and just have a VS code ID integrated experience, to me is completely magical. It hits like developer dopamine immediately for me, 'cause a lot of problems when you're going to work with a project attribute, that whole initial bootstrap of, "Oh you need to make sure you have this library, this install," it's so incredibly painful on top of just setting up your developer environment. So as we continue to move up the stack, I think you're going to see an incredible amount of improvements around the developer tooling and developer experience that people have powered by a lot of this cloud native technology behind the scenes that people may not know about. >> Yeah, 'cause I've been talking with the team over at Docker, the work they're doing with that desktop, enable the aim local environment, make sure it matches as closely as possible as your deployed environments that you might be targeting. These are some of the pains, that I see. It's hard for developers to get bootstrapped up, it might take him a day or two to actually just set up their local laptop and development environment, and particularly if they change teams. So that complexity really corralling that down and not necessarily being overly prescriptive as to what tool you use. So if you're visual code, great, it should feel integrated into that environment, use a different environment or if you feel more comfortable at the command line, you should be able to opt into that. That's some of the stuff I get excited to potentially see over 2020 as things progress up the stack, as you said. So, Michelle, just from an innovation train perspective, and we've covered a little bit, what's the best way for people to get started? I think Kelsey covered a little bit of that, being very pragmatic, but all this innovation is pretty intimidating, you can get mowed over by the train, so to speak. So what's your advice for how people get started, how they get involved, et cetera. >> Yeah, it really depends on what you're looking for and what you want to learn. So, if you're someone who's new to the space, honestly, check out the case studies on cncf.io, those are incredible. You might find environments that are similar to your organization's environments, and read about what worked for them, how they set things up, any hiccups they crossed. It'll give you a broad overview of the challenges that people are trying to solve with the technology in this space. And you can use that drill into the areas that you want to learn more about, just depending on where you're coming from. I find myself watching old KubeCon talks on the cloud native computing foundations YouTube channel, so they have like playlists for all of the conferences and the special interest groups in CNCF. And I really enjoy talking, I really enjoy watching excuse me, older talks, just because they explain why things were done, the way they were done, and that helps me build the tools I built. And if you're looking to get involved, if you're building projects or tools or specs and want to contribute, we have special interest groups in the CNCF. So you can find that in the CNCF Technical Oversight Committee, TOC GitHub repo. And so for that, if you want to get involved there, choose a vertical. Do you want to learn about observability? Do you want to drill into networking? Do you care about how to deliver your app? So we have a cig called app delivery, there's a cig for each major vertical, and you can go there to see what is happening on the edge. Really, these are conversations about, okay, what's working, what's not working and what are the next changes we want to see in the next months. So if you want that kind of granularity and discussion on what's happening like that, then definitely join those those meetings. Check out those meeting notes and recordings. >> Gotcha. So on Kelsey, as you look at 2020 and beyond, I know, you've been really involved in some of the earlier emerging tech spaces, what gets you excited when you look forward? What gets your own level of dopamine up versus the broader community? What do you see coming that we should start thinking about now? >> I don't think any of the raw technology pieces get me super excited anymore. Like, I've seen the circle of around three or four times, in five years, there's going to be a new thing, there might be a new foundation, there'll be a new set of conferences, and we'll all rally up and probably do this again. So what's interesting now is what people are actually using the technology for. Some people are launching new things that maybe weren't possible because infrastructure costs were too high. People able to jump into new business segments. You start to see these channels on YouTube where everyone can buy a mic and a B app and have their own podcasts and be broadcast to the globe, just for a few bucks, if not for free. Those revolutionary things are the big deal and they're hard to come by. So I think we've done a good job democratizing these ideas, distributed systems, one company got really good at packaging applications to share with each other, I think that's great, and never going to reset again. And now what's going to be interesting is, what will people build with this stuff? If we end up building the same things we were building before, and then we're talking about another digital transformation 10 years from now because it's going to be funny but Kubernetes will be the new legacy. It's going to be the things that, "Oh, man, I got stuck in this Kubernetes thing," and there'll be some governor on TV, looking for old school Kubernetes engineers to migrate them to some new thing, that's going to happen. You got to know that. So at some point merry go round will stop. And we're going to be focused on what you do with this. So the internet is there, most people have no idea of the complexities of underwater sea cables. It's beyond one or two people, or even one or two companies to comprehend. You're at the point now, where most people that jump on the internet are talking about what you do with the internet. You can have Netflix, you can do meetings like this one, it's about what you do with it. So that's going to be interesting. And we're just not there yet with tech, tech is so, infrastructure stuff. We're so in the weeds, that most people almost burn out what's just getting to the point where you can start to look at what you do with this stuff. So that's what I keep in my eye on, is when do we get to the point when people just ship things and build things? And I think the closest I've seen so far is in the mobile space. If you're iOS developer, Android developer, you use the SDK that they gave you, every year there's some new device that enables some new things speech to text, VR, AR and you import an STK, and it just worked. And you can put it in one place and 100 million people can download it at the same time with no DevOps team, that's amazing. When can we do that for server side applications? That's going to be something I'm going to find really innovative. >> Excellent. Yeah, I mean, I could definitely relate. I was Hortonworks in 2011, so, Hadoop, in many respects, was sort of the precursor to the Kubernetes area, in that it was, as I like to refer to, it was a bunch of animals in the zoo, wasn't just the yellow elephant. And when things mature beyond it's basically talking about what kind of analytics are driving, what type of machine learning algorithms and applications are they delivering? You know that's when things tip over into a real solution space. So I definitely see that. I think the other cool thing even just outside of the container and container space, is there's just such a wealth of data related services. And I think how those two worlds come together, you brought up the fact that, in many respects, server-less is great, it's stateless, but there's just a ton of stateful patterns out there that I think also need to be addressed as these richer applications to be from a data processing and actionable insights perspective. >> I also want to be clear on one thing. So some people confuse two things here, what Michelle said earlier about, for the first time, a whole group of people get to learn about distributed systems and things that were reserved to white papers, PhDs, CF site, this stuff is now super accessible. You go to the CNCF site, all the things that you read about or we used to read about, you can actually download, see how it's implemented and actually change how it work. That is something we should never say is a waste of time. Learning is always good because someone has to build these type of systems and whether they sell it under the guise of server-less or not, this will always be important. Now the other side of this is, that there are people who are not looking to learn that stuff, the majority of the world isn't looking. And in parallel, we should also make this accessible, which should enable people that don't need to learn all of that before they can be productive. So that's two sides of the argument that can be true at the same time, a lot of people get caught up. And everything should just be server-less and everyone learning about distributed systems, and contributing and collaborating is wasting time. We can't have a world where there's only one or two companies providing all infrastructure for everyone else, and then it's a black box. We don't need that. So we need to do both of these things in parallel so I just want to make sure I'm clear that it's not one of these or the other. >> Yeah, makes sense, makes sense. So we'll just hit the final topic. Chris, I think I'll ask you to help close this out. COVID-19 clearly has changed how people work and collaborate. I figured we'd end on how do you see, so DockerCon is going to virtual events, inherently the Open Source community is distributed and is used to not face to face collaboration. But there's a lot of value that comes together by assembling a tent where people can meet, what's the best way? How do you see things playing out? What's the best way for this to evolve in the face of the new normal? >> I think in the short term, you're definitely going to see a lot of virtual events cropping up all over the place. Different themes, verticals, I've already attended a handful of virtual events the last few weeks from Red Hat summit to Open Compute summit to Cloud Native summit, you'll see more and more of these. I think, in the long term, once the world either get past COVID or there's a vaccine or something, I think the innate nature for people to want to get together and meet face to face and deal with all the serendipitous activities you would see in a conference will come back, but I think virtual events will augment these things in the short term. One benefit we've seen, like you mentioned before, DockerCon, can have 50,000 people at it. I don't remember what the last physical DockerCon had but that's definitely an order of magnitude more. So being able to do these virtual events to augment potential of physical events in the future so you can build a more inclusive community so people who cannot travel to your event or weren't lucky enough to win a scholarship could still somehow interact during the course of event to me is awesome and I hope something that we take away when we start all doing these virtual events when we get back to physical events, we find a way to ensure that these things are inclusive for everyone and not just folks that can physically make it there. So those are my thoughts on on the topic. And I wish you the best of luck planning of DockerCon and so on. So I'm excited to see how it turns out. 50,000 is a lot of people and that just terrifies me from a cloud native coupon point of view, because we'll probably be somewhere. >> Yeah, get ready. Excellent, all right. So that is a wrap on the DockerCon 2020 Open Source Power Panel. I think we covered a ton of ground. I'd like to thank Chris, Kelsey and Michelle, for sharing their perspectives on this continuing wave of Docker and cloud native innovation. I'd like to thank the DockerCon attendees for tuning in. And I hope everybody enjoys the rest of the conference. (upbeat music)

>> From the KIPP studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> IBM's new CEO has an opportunity to reset the direction of the company. Outgoing CEO Ginni Rometty, inherited a strategy that was put in place over two decades. It became fossilized in a lower-margin services-led model that she helped architect. Ginni spent a large portion of her tenure, shrinking the company so it could grow. But unfortunately, she ran out of time. For decades, IBM has missed opportunities to aggressively invest in the key waves that are now powering the tech economy. Instead, IBM really tried to balance investing innovation with placating Wall Street. We believe IBM has an opportunity to return to the Big Blue status that set the standard for the tech industry. But several things have to change, some quite dramatically. So we're going to talk about what it's going to take for IBM to succeed in this endeavor. Welcome to this special Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we're going to address our view of the future of IBM and try to accomplish three things. First, I want to review IBM's most recent earnings, the very first one under new CEO Arvind Krishna, and we'll discuss IBM's near-term prospects. Next, we'll look at how IBM got to where we are today. We want to review some of the epic decisions that it has made over the past several years and even decades. Finally, we'll look at some of the opportunities that we see for IBM to essentially remake itself and return to that tech titan that was revered by customers and feared by competitors. First, I want to look at the comments from new CEO Arvind Krishna. And let's try to decode them a bit. Arvind in the first earnings call that he held, and in interviews as well, and also internal memos, he's given some clues as to how he's thinking. This slide addresses a few of the key points. Arvind has clearly stated that he's committed to growing the IBM company, and of course, increasing its value. This is no surprise, as you know, every IBM CEO has been under pressure to do the same. And we'll look at that further a little later on in the segment. Arvind, also stated that he wants the company, he said it this way, "To lead with a technical approach." Now as we reported in January when Krishna was appointed to CEO. We're actually very encouraged that the IBM board chose a technical visionary to lead the company. Arvind's predecessors did not have the technical vision needed to make the bold decisions that we believe are now needed to power the company's future. As a technologist, we believe his decisions will be more focused on bigger tactical bets that can pay bigger returns, potentially with more risk. Now, as a point of just tactical commentary, I want to point out that IBM noted that it was doing well coming into the March month, but software deals especially came to a halt as customers focused on managing the pandemic and other parts of the business were okay. Now, this chart pulls some of the data from IBM's quarter. And let me make a few comments here. Now, what was weird here, IBM cited modest revenue growth on this chart, this was pulled from their slides. But revenue was down 2% for the quarter relative to last year. So I guess that's modest growth. Cloud revenue for the past 12 months, the trailing 12 months, was 22 billion and grew 23%. We're going to unpack that in a minute. Red Hat showed good growth, Stu Miniman and I talked about this last week. And IBM continues to generate a solid free cash flow. Now IBM, like many companies, they prudently suspended forward guidance. Some investors bristled at that, but I really have no problem with it. I mean, just way too much uncertainty right now. So I think that was a smart move by IBM. And basically, everybody's doing it. Now, let's take a look at IBM's business segments and break those down and make a few comments there. As you can see, in this graph, IBM's 17 plus billion dollar quarter comprises their four reporting segments. Cloud and cognitive software, which is, of course, its highest margin and highest growth business at 7%. You can see its gross margin is really, really nice. But it only comprises 30% of the pie. Services, the Global Business Services and GTS global technology services are low-growth or no growth businesses that are relatively low margin operations. But together they comprise more than 60% of IBM's revenue in the quarter and consistently throughout the last several years. Systems, by the way, grew nicely on the strength of the Z15 product cycles, it was up by 60% and dragged storage with it. But unfortunately power had a terrible quarter and hence the 4% growth. But decent margins compared to services of 50%. IBM's balance sheet looks pretty good. It took an advantage of some low rates recently and took out another $4 billion in corporate debt. So it's okay, I'm not too concerned about its debt related to the Red Hat acquisition. Now, welcome back to cloud at 22 billion for the past 12 months and growing at 23%. What, you say? That sounds very large, I don't understand. It's understandable that you don't understand. But let me explain with this next graphic. What this shows is the breakdown of IBM's cloud revenue by segment from fiscal year 19. As you can see, the cloud and cognitive segments, or segment which includes Red Hat comprises only 20% of IBM's cloud business. I know, kind of strange. Professional services accounts for 2/3 of IBM's Cloud revenue with systems at 14%. So look, IBM is defining cloud differently than most people. I mean, actually, that's 1% of the cloud business of AWS, Azure and Google Cloud come from professional services and on-prem hardware. This just doesn't have real meaning. And I think frankly, it hurts IBM's credibility as it hides the ball on cloud. Nobody really believes this number. So, I mean, it's really not much else I can say there. But look, why don't we bring in the customer angle, and let's look at some ETR data. So what this chart shows is the results of an ETR survey. That survey ran, we've been reporting on this, ran from mid March to early April. And more than 1200 respondents and almost 800 IBM customers are in there. If this chart shows the percentage of customers spending more on IBM products by various product segments that we chose with three survey samples April last year, January 2020, and the most recent April 2020 survey. So the good news here is the container platforms, OpenShift, Ansible, the Staples of Red Hat are showing strength, even though they're notably down from previous surveys. But that's the part of IBM's business that really is promising. AI and machine learning and cloud, they're right there in the mix, and even outsourcing and consulting and really across the board, you can see a pretty meaningful and respectable number or percent of customers are actually planning on spending more. So that's good, especially considering that the survey was taken right during the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic. But, if you look at the next chart, the net scores across IBM's portfolio, they're not so rosy. Remember, net score is a measure of spending momentum. It's derived by essentially subtracting the percent of customers that are spending less from those that are spending more. It's a nice simple metric. Kind of like NPS and ETR surveys, every quarter with the exact same methodology for consistency so we can do some comparisons over time series, it's quite nice. And you can see here that Red Hat remains the strongest part of IBM's portfolio. But generally in my experience as net scores starts to dip below 25% and kind of get into the red zone, that so called danger zone. And you can see many parts of IBM's portfolio are showing softness as we measure in net score. And even though you see here, the outsourcing and consulting businesses are up relative to last year, if you slice the data by large companies, as we showed you with Sagar Kadakia last week, that services business is showing deceleration, same thing we saw for Accenture, EY, Deloitte, etc. So here's the takeaway. Red Hat, of course, is where all the action is, and that's where IBM is going to invest in our opinion, and we'll talk a little bit more about that and drill into that kind of investment scenario a bit later. But what I want to do now is I want to come back to Arvind Krishna. Because he has a chance to pull off a Satya Nadella like move. Maybe it's different, but there are definite similarities. I mean, you have an iconic brand, a great company, that's in many technology sectors, and yes, there are differences, IBM doesn't have the recurring software revenue that Microsoft had, it didn't have the monopoly and PCs. But let's move on. Arvind has cited four enduring platforms for IBM, mainframes, services, middleware, and the newest hybrid cloud. He says that IBM must win the architectural battle for hybrid cloud. Now, I'm going to really share later what we think that means. There's a lot in that statement, including the role of AI in the edge. Both of which we'll address later on in this breaking analysis. But before we get there, I want to understand from a historical perspective where we think Arvind is going to take IBM. And to do that, we want to look back over the modern history of IBM, modern meaning of the post mainframe dominance era, which really started in 1993 when Louis Gerstner took over. Look, it's been well documented how Louis Gerstner pivoted into services. He wrote his own narrative with the book, "Who Says Elephants Can't Dance". And you know, look, you can't argue with his results. The graphic here shows IBM's rank in the fortune 500, that's the green line over time. IBM was sixth under Gerstner, today it's number 38. The blue area chart on the Insert, it shows IBM's market cap. Now, look, Gerstner was a hero to Wall Street. And IBM's performance under his tenure was pretty stellar. But his decision to pivot to services set IBM on a path that to this day marks company's greatest strength, and in my view, its greatest vulnerability. Name a product under the mainframes in which IBM leads. Again, middleware, I guess WebSphere, okay. But you know, IBM used to be the leader in the all important database market, semiconductors, storage servers, even PCs back in the day. So, I don't want to beat on this too much, I can say it's been well documented. And I said earlier, Ginni essentially inherited a portfolio that she had to unwind, and hence the steep revenue declines as you see here, and it's 'cause she had to jettison the so called non-strategic businesses. But the real issue is R&D, and how IBM has used it's free cash. And this chart shows IBM's breakdown of cash use between 2007 and 2019. Blue is cash return to shareholders, orange is research and development, and gray is CapEx. Now I chose these years because I think we can all agree that this was the period of tech defined by cloud. And you can see, during those critical early formative years, IBM consistently returned well over 50%, and often 60% plus of its free cash flow to shareholders in the form of dividends and stock buybacks. Now, while the orange appears to grow, it's because of what you see in this chart. The point is the absolute R&D spend really didn't change too much. It pretty much hovered, if you look back around 5 1/2 to $6 billion annually, the percentage grew because IBM's revenue declined. Meanwhile, IBM's competitors were spending on R&D and CapEx, what were they doing? Well, they were building up the cloud. Now, let me give you some perspective on this. In 2007 IBM spent $6.2 billion on R&D, Microsoft spent 7 billion that same year, Intel 5.8 billion, Amazon spent 800 million, that's it. Google spent 2.1 billion that year. And that same year, IBM returned nearly $21 billion to shareholders. In 2012 IBM spent $6.3 billion on R&D, Microsoft that year 9.8 billion, Intel 10 billion, Amazon 4.6 billion, less than IBM, Google 6.1 billion, about the same as IBM. That year IBM returned almost $16 billion to shareholders. Today, IBM spends about the same 6 billion on R&D, about the same as Cisco and Oracle. Meanwhile, Microsoft and Amazon are spending nearly $17 billion each. Sorry, Amazon 23 billion, and IBM could only return $7 billion to shareholders last year. So while IBM was returning cash to its shareholders, its competitors were investing in the future and are now reaping the rewards. Now IBM suspended its stock buybacks after the Red Hat deal, which is good, in my opinion. Buybacks have been a poor use of cash for IBM, in my view. Recently, IBM raised its dividend by a penny. It did this so it could say that it has increased its dividend 25 years in a row. Okay, great, not expensive. So I'm glad that that investors were disappointed with that move. But since 2007, IBM has returned more than $175 billion to shareholders. And somehow Arvind has to figure out how to tell Wall Street to expect less while he invests in the future. So let's talk about that a little bit. Now, as I've reported before, here is the opportunity. This chart shows data from ETR. It plots cloud landscape and is a proxy for multi-cloud and hybrid cloud. It plots net score or spending momentum on the y-axis, and market share, which really isn't market share, as we've talked about, it's a measure of pervasiveness in the data set, that's plotted on the x-axis. So, the point is, IBM has presence, it's pervasive in the marketplace, Red Hat and OpenShift, they have relevance, they have momentum with higher net scores. Arvind's opportunity is to really plug OpenShift into IBM's, large install base, and increase Red Hat's pervasiveness, while at the same time lifting IBM momentum. This, in my view, as Stu Miniman and I reported last week at the Red Hat Summit, puts IBM in a leading position to go after multi and hybrid cloud and the edge. So let's break that down a little bit further. When Arvind talks about winning the architectural battle for hybrid cloud, what does he mean by that? Here's our interpretation. We think IBM can create the de facto standard for cloud and hybrid cloud. And this includes on-prem, public cloud, cross clouds, or multi cloud, and importantly, the edge. Here's the opportunity, is to have OpenShift run natively, natively everywhere, on-premises in the AWS cloud, in the Azure Cloud, GCP, Alibaba, and the IBM Cloud and the Oracle Cloud, everywhere natively, so we can take advantage of the respective services within all those clouds. Same thing for on-prem, same thing for edge opportunities. Now I'll talk a little bit more about that in a moment. But what we're talking about here is the entire IT stack running natively, if I haven't made that point on OpenShift. The control plane, the security plane, the transport, the data management plane, the network plane, the recovery plane, every plane, a Red Hat lead stack with a management of resources is 100% identical, everywhere the same cloud experience. That's how IBM is defining cloud. Okay, I'll give them a mulligan on that one. IBM can be the independent broker of this open source standard covering as many use cases and workloads as possible. Here's the rub, this is going to require an enormous amount of R&D. Just think about all the startups that are building cloud native services and imagine IBM building or buying to fill out that IT stack. Now I don't have enough time to go in too deep to all other areas, but I do want to address the edge, the opportunity there and weave in AI. Beyond what I said above, which I want to stress, the points I made above about hybrid, multi-cloud include edge, the edge is a huge opportunity. But IBM and in many other, if not most other traditional players, we think are kind of missing the boat on that. I'll talk about that in a minute. Here's the opportunity, AI inference is going to run at the edge in real-time. This is going to be incredibly challenging. We think about this, a car running inference AI generates a billion pixels per second today, in five years, it'll be 15 times that. The pressure for real-time analysis at the edge is going to be enormous, and will require a new architecture with new processing models that are likely going to be ARM-based in our opinion. IBM has the opportunity to build end-to-end solutions powered by Red Hat to automate the data pipeline from factory to data center to cloud and everywhere. Anywhere there's instruments, IBM has an opportunity to automate them. Now rather than toss traditional Intel-based IT hardware over the fence to the edge, which is what IBM and most people are doing right now, IBM can develop specialized systems and make new silicon investments that can power the edge with very low cost and efficient systems that process data in real-time. Hey look, I'm out of time, but some other things I want you to consider, IBM transitioning to a recurring revenue model. Interestingly, Back to the Future, right? IBM used to have a massive rental revenue stream before it converted that base to sales. But if Arvind can recreate a culture of innovation and win the day with developers via its Red Hat relationships, as I said recently, he will be CEO of the decade. But he has to transform the portfolio by investing more in R&D. He's got to convince the board to stop pouring money back to investors for a number of years, not just a couple of quarters and do Whatever they have to do to protect the company from corporate raiders. This is not easy, but with the right leader, IBM, a company that has shown resilience through the decades, I think it can be done. All right, well, thanks for watching this episode of the Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. This is Dave Vellante. And don't forget, these episodes are available as podcasts, wherever you listen, I publish weekly on siliconangle.com, where you'll find all the news, I publish on wikibon.com which is our research site. Please comment on my LinkedIn posts, check out etr.plus, that's where all the data lives. And thanks for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for Breaking Analysis, we'll see you next time. (soft music)

>> From the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the CUBE, covering COMCAST Innovation Day, brought to you by COMCAST. >> Hey welcome back here ready Jeff Frick here with the CUBE. We're at the COMCAST Silicon Valley Innovation Center. You know there's innovation centers all over Silicon Valley we hadn't been to the COMCAST one until we came to this event, it's very very cool, I think it's like five storeys in this building, where they're developing a lot of new technologies, partnering with technologies, but today the focus is on customer experience, brought together a panel of people to talk about some of the issues, and we're excited to have a representative from a company that's really out on the edge of defining customer experience, and measuring customer experience, joined by Ganesh Subramanian. He is the senior director of product marketing for Gainsight. Ganesh, great to see you. >> Great, happy to be here. >> Yeah, so I'm a huge Nick Mehta fan, I've interviewed him before I've been following Gainsight for a long time and you know, it really struck me the first time that, that Nick said you know CRM is you know, basically order management. It's not customer relationship management, you know customer relationships are complicated, and they're multi-faceted and there's lots of touch points and you guys really try to build a solution to help customers manage, actually do manage that relationship so they have a great experience with their customer. >> Yeah that's totally right, and not to say that CRM isn't an important ingredient when you make that cake, but there's a lot of other touchpoints right? How are people interacting with your digital products? What is that customer journey across sales, services, support? How does all of that come together? So what Gainsight does is really provide the customer cloud to bring all of those solutions together so that businesses can really operate in a more customer-centric way. >> So you, you said an interesting thing earlier in the conversation about customer success being measured just by revenue, again kind of the CRMy kind of approach to worth versus measuring success and measuring lifetime value and measuring so many other things that can define a great relationship. What are some of those things that people should be thinking about? What are some of those other metrics out there beyond you know, did I get a, you know, a net increase value of my contract? >> Yeah absolutely you know one way we think about it at Gainsight is the two-by-two of customer experience and customer outcomes. So, you can think about experience just as how happy are people on a day-to-day basis interacting with you, your products, your organization, your team? The flipside's also true though. You can have the happiest customer, that isn't getting what they want out of their product or service. In a B2B context we think about it as tangible ROI or outcomes. So at Gainsight we're ultimately trying to make sure our clients are delivering on both of those vectors. They want happy, successful clients, ultimately that's going to lead to the recurring revenue cycle: retention, growth, adoption and advocacy. >> So where does that kind of tie together? 'Cause I'm sure there's a lot of people that think those are in conflict right? That if I bend over backwards and I provide this great experience and these great services and all these things that this is going to negatively impact my profitability, it's going to negatively impact my transactional value. How should they be measuring those things? How should they be balancing, 'cause 'cause, you know, you can sell dollars for 90 cents, have a really happy customer, not going to be in business very long. >> Yeah I think that's kind of the secret sauce right? True innovation, what we talked about today at COMCAST, a lot about, how do you take that next step forward? How do you improve your products and services in ways that make customers, customers for life? Right, and if you make the right investments, you actually find out that maybe it's, it's minor change, maybe it's process change in your call center or call service, maybe it's implementing AI in an appropriate way, so that you're able to deliver more value with less time, or maybe it's transformative, maybe it's something that's a new service you're offering all together, that's making customers get outsized or unrealized returns on their investment. Well, it doesn't matter what that investment was, if it's going to long term drive your company to higher valuations and greater competitive differentiation. So we don't think about customer experience on kind of below the line, what's going to get me the incremental ROI, we really think about it as a fundamental differentiator for your business. >> Right. Now you're in charge of, of kickin' off new products. >> That's right. >> And you know one of the things I think is really interesting about the COMCAST voice, which has had a lot of conversation today, is I still get emails from COMCAST telling me how I should use it! Right 'cause it's a different behavior, it's a different experience that I'm not necessarily used to. As you look forward, you know introducing new products, what are some of the, the kind of trends that you're keepin an eye on, what do you think is going to kind of change and impact some of the things you guys are bringing to market? What are some of the new things we should be thinking about in customer experience? >> Yeah absolutely. So one thing at Gainsight, one thing we've learned leading the customer success movement is that to be customer-centric is more than a given function, or a given team, customer success managers kind of took the mantle in B2B and started leading the charge, leading the way towards being more customer-centric but that team on their own can't do everything. Nor do they want to, or can they, right? So, one big change and one big innovation that we're leading the front on is how do you bring all those different teams together? Which is why we launched the Gainsight customer cloud. So what we're doing is we're bringing disparate data together, that used to be silohed in functional specific software, bring that into a single source of truth, to truly provide an actionable customer 360, one that provides meaning to different teams with the right context, and then drive action off of that. So whether it's an automated email to get, improve product adoption in the COMCAST example, or maybe it's some kind of escalation effort, where you need a cross-functional team to get together on the same page, to improve a red customer, or maybe it's something that's in the product itself, by just making the product easier to use or a little bit more intuitive, the, all of your end users will end up benefiting from that. What Gainsight's tryna do is to try figure out, how can we break down these walls across these different teams, make it easier for people to collaborate to improve the customer experience. >> So Ganesh I got to tease you right, 'cause everyone's eyes just rolled out when you said 360 view of the customer right, we've been talking about this forever. >> Yeah. >> So what's different, you know, what's different today? Not specifically for what you're tryna do with your product and share that too, but more generally, that, that we're getting closer to that vision. >> Yeah. >> That we're actually getting closer to delivering on, on the promise of a 360 view, and information from that view that will enable us to take positive action? >> I love that question, and I think whenever you hear the word 360 view or digital transformation, you're going to get a couple eye-rolls in the crowd right? And, I actually totally believe that, that, you know, to date I think we've done things in too much of a waterfall methodology. Let's spend three years, get a unified idea across all our disparate data sources, and then we're going to be customer-centric. I think we've learned our lessons over the course of time that, hey you know, the end result doesn't really materialize in the time frame and ROI you expected, so why don't we start with the other end of the spectrum? What are the gaps that customers are perceiving? If it's just, let me, go back to that example of product ease of use. Are we identifying that as a major gap? Then how do we go solve that? How do we reverse engineer that process? And by the way that doesn't just fall on the product team to make the product easier, services need to onboard customers more effectively, you need documentation so that they can access and understand the key aspects of your product in a more concrete way. So all of that needs to come together. So I think the biggest difference between what we used to talk about, with 360s and digital transformation, to where we are today, is really the context and the outcome you're trying to deliver, and then reverse engineer the 360 that's most meaningful to you. So to make that a little bit more clear, what does that mean at the grassroots level? If you're a services team member you're working on projects. Does a 360 view about the next opportunity from a financial or commercial perspective really matter to you? How far down in that 360 view do you have to scroll before you start seeing information that's relevant? So at Gainsight what we're trying to do is use a many-to-many relationship mapping so that if you're a services team member, or a sales member, the view you're accessing is curated to what you need to actually do. >> Right. >> And that'll drive adoption of the digital transformation efforts within your organization. >> Right. Which then obviously opens up the opportunity for automation and AI and ML to, as you said, context is so important to make sure the right information is getting to the right person at the right time for the context of the job that I have and building that customer relationship. >> That's right. Yeah we think about AI all the time how's that going to improve the customer experience? It starts with that data foundation and understanding hey what should we own and what should we leverage? And being very conscious about what you're about to do, and then second, thinking about those point problems and, again, reverse engineering how can we staff augment, or make the experience better, maybe make the lives of our employees a little bit better, when they're engaging with customers. Ultimately it's got to be in service of people. >> Right. Well Ganesh thanks for sharing your story. Again I think what you guys are doing, and Nick and Gainsight is so important in terms of redefining this beyond order management, and to actually customer relationship management. >> So, >> That's right. >> Thanks for spending a few minutes with us. >> Awesome. >> My pleasure. >> All - >> All right. >> Thank you. >> He's Ganesh I'm Jeff you're watching the CUBE we're at the COMCAST Innovation Center in Silicon Valley. Thanks for watching we'll see you next time.

>> Innovation Day, brought to you by Comcast. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Rick, here with theCube. We're at the Comcast Silicon Valley Innovation Center here in Sunnyvale. It's a very cool space, I think it's grown up over a number of years as they've originated with some acquired companies, and now they got a huge setup here, and we had a big day today talking about customer experience, and really, if you look at the Comcast Voice Remote, and there's a lot of stuff going on that's maybe under the covers, you don't really give Comcast credit for, but they're actually doing a lot. And we're excited to, kind of dive into it a little bit deeper with our next guest, she's Annie Weskesser, she's a CMO of Uniphore. Annie, welcome. >> Yeah, thank you for having me here today. >> Absolutely. So what is Uniphore, for people that aren't familiar with the company. >> So Uniphore is a global leader in conversational service automation, and our vision is to bridge the gap between human and machine, through voice AI and automation. >> That's a mouth full. >> Yes. >> Conversational... >> Service. >> Service. >> Yes. >> So, people talk, and so you guys are heavily involved in voice. So what are the applications where people are using your voice? >> Yep, well primarily our focus is call centers. >> Okay. >> So large enterprises who have massive call centers, where we want to go in and help them with AI and automation, to help better listen to their customers, help better listen to the customers voice, and solve the problems in a faster manner. >> So I don't have to repeat my account number six different times to six different agents. >> Exactly, right. >> Or caught an in IVR cycle, or perhaps the chat that you were talking to doesn't-- The person on the phone, you have to repeat your story. This is something where the AI and automation will actually assist the agent to become a superhero. >> So, it's pretty interesting cause you know there's a lot of conversation about AI and ML, but really you know where it's going to have its impact is applied AI. >> Yes. And you said the company started out really more just on a pure voice, but now you're applying more and more kind of AI in the back end. So what kind of opportunities do you have now beyond just simply being able to do voice conversion?. >> To the first part of your question, the company started at IIT Madras back in 2008. And originally the focus of the company was really centered on voice, voice being the lowest common denominator and in Indie where the languages are 260 you know, potential languages to understand and maybe 25 at the top. We set out really to focus on voice and then realize that customer service was a large market and somewhere we can have a big impact. >> Right, right. So you reckon as you said a 100 different languages. >> A 100 different languages through our platform which is pretty incredible when you think about it. All of the different people calling in to customer service potentially or maybe through a chatbot or a voicebot to get their issues solved. >> And then you integrate in whatever the core system is that the customer services agent are using. >> Yes. >> So what are the types of tips and tricks that the call agent gets by using your guys service? >> So think about it as a platform where the customer can help they agents be more affective agents. So one of the things that call centers struggle with is something called after call work, where agents may spend two to three minutes after a call, summarizing the call. One of the things that our technology does and this is primarily for one of our customers who's a health care client. They said "Wouldn't it be great if we can automate that completely". So we've taken the after call work for one customer client, taken that two to three minutes down to 10 seconds, where that work that the agent would have done is completely summarized and the agent validates it, can correct it if needed and its completely done. So that not only saves the agent time to either pick up more calls and help other customers or it can get them of the phone in a quicker manner to save the call center more money. >> So that's doing more than just simply providing a transcript of the call which is something a different track than actually listening into to provide suggestions is actually taking it to the next level in terms of what categorizing, what type of call, the outcome etc. >> it's actually quite interesting because often times less than 1% of calls are listened to somewhere between 1 and 10% of calls are listened to in calls centers. So we can listen to a 100% of those calls in addition we offer something called that's more along the line of like a live agent coach to where the agent can concentrate on the conversation with the customer which is the primary thing listening to the customer. And our technology will serve you up coaching mechanism in terms of getting to faster resolution for the customer and getting them better insights to be almost a superhero of a agent. >> Right, and I would imagine the accuracy in terms of recording what happened in the call to go back and do the analytics and have a text base search you can do all types of analysis on those calls which was data that was probably just lost before right into (mumbles) >> You're exactly right. I think the accuracy is clearly a lot lower than if you were to have the AI and automation and Machine learning technology there. >> So the other conversation in the sit down that we had earlier today was really about driving a customer centric culture in your own company, not only just enabling it but really building it inside. I wonder if you could share some of the things that you guys have done to help make sure that everybody stays focused on the objective, which is the customer. >> Yip, I think it really starts at the top it starts with the leader of the organization. So we have a CEO whose extremely focused on customer centricity and in fact its our number one core value within the organization. So you see everyone from the CEO down to the rest of the organization completely focused on the customer and their needs. >> What about when the customer doesn't know what they need? What about you know, you bringing a new technology and your inviting a slightly different process or a slightly different change and your saying "Hey, this is actually a better way to keep text and transactions and we actually have a really coach that can help", you know, kind of guy to people. How do you help move customers to a place they don't necessarily know they want to go? >> Yeah, I mean you find that a lot, right. Its not necessarily the technology that we're providing for today but its having the innovation and having the foresight to create a platform that will be future proof. So that's critical, you know, I think that there are a lot of customers who might not know what they need today but that's our job to help them innovate and push the envelope on all things AI and automation. >> Right, I'm just curious to in terms of the impact of your technology on kind of the tracking software for those call center agents, right. So this is a group of people that have to process a lot of calls, you know everything is track to the minute and you know its funny I had a demo with Westworld and you know when Westworld's funny cause we started treating machines like machines and they wanted to be treated like people sometimes I wonder on some of these technologies You know is it enabling them to have more time to be more thoughtful, is it enabling them to have more time to get the better outcomes or is it sometimes perceived as 'oh my gosh you just trying to jam' you know, 'four more calls on in my hour by taking care of my two more minutes that I used to spend wrapping up the call". Do you think about those things and the end customer? >> The time is really the premium, right. So the number one focus is giving people time back and whether that's the customer who's calling in and you want to solve an issue and get them faster resolution or whether that's the agent that wants to free up more time in having the conversation with the customer, solving their problem and then getting of the phone I think that's the most effective way of doing it. >> Final question in terms of voice and the evolution of voice. `Cause I don't think people are really completely tuned in certainly not people old like we are. What are some of the conversations when people finally get, you know, kind of the enabler that voice communications opens up that's not necessarily available with texts or not necessarily available with other types of channels? >> Yeah, I mean I see it most easily in my children they expect everything to be voice enabled and so everything from the Comcast remote that they pick up in our living room everywhere they go when they see a remote they expect everything to be voice enabled. So that's really the future and I think a lot of customer service will be listening to your customers voice however, they want to communicate with you, whatever channel they want to communicate on. >> Great, really cool story Annie and thanks for taking the few minutes and sharing it with us. >> Yeah, thanks for inviting me. >> All right, she's Annie, I'm Jeff your watching theCube with the Comcast CX Experience Innovation day here at the Sillicon Valley Innovation Center. Thanks for watching see you next time.

>> From the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE covering Comcast Innovation Day. (smooth music) Brought to you by Comcast. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at the Comcast Silicon Valley Innovation Center here in Sunnyvale. Very cool facility right off the runway from Moffett. They got a ton of cool toys downstairs which I get to go play with, which I'm looking forward to, but today the conversation was all about CX, customer experience, and you know, Comcast is there. A lot of people like to watch their TVs, interacting with their cable systems for a long, long time, but there's a whole range of new and innovative things that are coming out from Comcast, and we're excited to have an engineer who's kind of down in the bowels here in the engine room building all this stuff. So like to welcome Mike Fine. He's a cable software architect for Comcast. Mike, great to see you. >> Likewise. >> So you had a really cool demo earlier, which is not a demo, right? I think this thing is-- >> Production. >> Now in production, it's called the X1 Eye Control. I think most people know what X1 is. What's X1 Eye Control? >> Yeah. X1 Eye Control is a web application that integrates with off-the-shelf accessibility hardware, so that could be a Tobii eye gaze rig, it could be something called a sip-and-puff, which let's users use their inhalation and exhalation to control the application, or any other off-the-shelf accessibility hardware that can mimic a mouse to a piece of software. >> Too, it's-- >> Yeah. The goal of the project was pretty simple. It was to let people with ALS and other conditions control their TVs independently. >> That's amazing, and you showed a great video. The gentleman on the video is using I think an eye gaze method, but you said you've got integrations to a number of different, you know, kind of ADA-approved interface devices. >> That's right, the journey that this project has taken has been interesting. We started with just the ALS use case, which was the eye gaze, but it turned out that one of our early users had control over his voice, which is somewhat unusual for ALS patients, and so he asked whether he could control it with his voice, so we did that work through he had Dragon NaturallySpeaking, which was nice, so we did that work, and then of course given that we have the voice remote we decided could we make voice work for everybody, which we did, so now the application is on par with a physical remote, and then we even went further and let people type in voice commands, so in case somebody who's perhaps mute or had a speech impediment, or some sort of speech pathology issue that prevented them from using a voice, they could do that as well. >> It's really interesting, I mean you guys have so many kind of interface points to an ecosystem broader than simply what's available at Comcast, whether it's on the front end, as you said, with some of these interfaces with ADA devices, or on the backend if I want to watch my Netflix or I want to watch YouTube, or I want to watch, you know, a different service. You guys have really taken, you know, kind of an open, integrated approach to all these, one might argue, competitive threats to really bring it in as the customer wants to experience. Why did you do that, what's kind of the philosophy driving that? >> Yeah, well, the first thought that comes to mind is that none of it's possible without the right cloud APIs, so somebody very visionary years ago made the decision that everything you can do on your TV or on the mobile app you can do through the cloud, and so a project like this couldn't happen unless it was possible for a piece of software that somebody invented well after the fact to cause a TV to change channels unless there was that underpinning, so like any other piece of software it's a bit of an iceberg. There's a lot of stuff underneath that you don't realize as a user-- >> Right. >> But it's there and that's what makes it possible. >> Right, I'm just curious about some of the challenges in terms of moving UI and UX forward into places that people are not familiar with. And I've joked about it on a number of these interviews that, you know, I still get an email, not only from Comcast, but from Google and from Alexa, suggesting to me ways in which I might use voice. You know, as you sit back from a technologist what are some of the challenges you guys, you know, kind of anticipate, what are some of the ones you didn't anticipate, and how do you help us old people, you know, find new ways to interact with the technology? >> Yeah, it's a great question. I mean there's a lot of us here that spend our days solving that exact problem, right? Part of it is is notifying you of interesting things through SMS or through mobile push, or the messages on the TV, so your team is playing in a game that you want to see, a movie that you've declared interest in has become cheaper, become free, or maybe even buyable if you wanted to do that. Obviously there's lots of AI and ML in terms of putting recommendations in front of you based on your viewing habits, based on broader trends across, you know, because you watch this, other people watch this, so we know this is probably a good solution for you as well, but yeah, we're all, there's a large number of us trying to optimize what we call "time to joy," from the time you pick up your remote to think about what you want to watch to the time you're actually watching something you want to watch; make that as seamless as possible. >> Preston said you guys get like a billion voice commands, what was the period of time? >> A month. >> A month. >> A month, yeah. (chuckles) >> So obviously a big, giant new dataset for you guys now to have at your disposal. >> What are some of the things that you're learning from that inbound, what can you do with it, how do you, you know, now use this direct touch with the customer to, again, kind of recycle and have another iteration on improved experience? >> Right, so voice is a lot like a text chat, like a bot interface in that it's an experience where users are telling you exactly what they want to do, so if a user sits in front of a traditional web application or mobile application and has trouble finding what they want to do, they can't figure out what button to press, what screen to go to, you have no idea, right? You can't infer that they're having a problem, but with voice or somebody interacting with a bot, they type exactly what they mean, or they say exactly what they mean, so we can mine those voice commands and find the popular ones that we don't at that point have implemented, and if we can iterate on that cycle fast enough we can quickly introduce new voice commands that our users are literally asking for as quickly as possible. >> Right. What about the stuff that customers are not asking for, because right? There's one line of thought, which is the customer knows best, but the customer doesn't know-- >> That's right. >> What they don't know. So how do you guys continue to look for more kind of cutting edge stuff that isn't necessarily coming back through a feedback loop? >> Right, yeah, so it's an interesting question. So we're trying to add other non-TV use cases into the mix, right, so controlling your IoT devices at home, controlling your security, seeing your cameras through the Set-Top Box, and so on. So you know, until those use cases exist nobody's asking for them, and so you do have to be a bit visionary in terms of what you want to put out there as voice commands. You know, luckily we have people who, well, we're all customers of the platform generally, so we know what it means to be a user, but you know, we have people that talk with users and have a general sense of what they want to do, and then we figure out what the right commands are. >> Right, not voice specifically, but let's unpack a little bit deeper into the impact of IoT. You know, Nest probably was the first kind of broadly accepted kind of IoT device in the home, and now you got Ring, which everybody loves to take pictures of people stealing their boxes from the front porch, but that puts you guys with the internet connectivity in a very different place than simply providing a football game or the entertainment. So as you think of your role changing in the house, specifically with now these connected devices, how do you think about new opportunities, new challenges that being the person in the middle of that is different than just sending a TV signal? >> Yeah, there's a lot of talk about trying to be the home OS. Certainly we are in a unique position being in the home, both in terms of the router and the internet, but also, you know, often frankly you know when your system's setup a human being came in and helps you understand how to best position the physical devices in your house, and so on, that other companies don't have, right? Those vendors just don't have that builtin advantage. Clearly security has become a big thing for us. Home automation, I sit very close to that group. They're doing amazing things with automating rules like, you know, "Tell me when my door's been open too long," and these sort of things, and so more and more the use cases start to converge, that, for example, when you say, "Good morning," we have this idea of scenes, all right. So when your morning starts you not only want to tune the TV, but you also want to crank up the lights and unlock the door and open the windows, or whatever, and when you go to bed, so the actions that are involved in those use cases span not just TV and not just internet, but all of it. >> Right, it's just funny because I don't think Comcast would be the first name that people would say when they're talking about voice technology and the transformational impact of voice technology, right? They're probably going to say Siri was the first and Alexa's probably the most popular, and you know-- >> Right. >> Google's got Lord knows how many inputs they have, but you guys are really sitting at a central place, and I might argue it's one of the more used voice applications-- >> Absolutely. >> Out there, so from kind of a technology leadership perspective you guys have a bunch of really unique assets in terms of where you are, what you control, what you're sitting on in terms of that internet. You know, how does that really help you and the team think about Comcast as an innovation company, Comcast as a cool tech company, not necessarily Comcast as what used to be just a cable company? >> Right, right. Well you know, as somebody in the valley with friends in the valley it's always interesting to try to differentiate reality from the view that many people have. You know, this is definitely much more than your dad's cable company. It's a consumer and electronic company as much as anything else. We very much position ourselves with all the, you know, with the FAANG companies, et cetera, so you know, when we talked about CX it's no longer the case that whatever's passable for a stodgy cable company passes as CX anymore. Now you're being compared to a set of customers, companies that are providing fantastic user experiences for their customers, and you're being held to that standard, so you know, there's a lot of pressure on us, which is great; we like that. We want to produce fantastic products, and yeah, I don't know if I have a great answer in terms of how to move forward in terms of melding it all together, but we have a lot of smart people in the hallways making that happen. (chuckles) >> So last question is really the impact of AI, because you know, we cover a lot of tech events and a lot of talk about AI, but you know, I think those of us around know that really where AI shines is applied AI in specific applications for specific U cases. So how are you guys, you know, kind of implementing AI, where are some of the opportunities that you see that you can do in the future that you couldn't do the past, whether it be just with much better datasets, whether it be with much faster connectivity and much better compute so that you can ultimately deliver a better customer experience using some of these really modern tools? >> Right, so some of the work is just making what you already do or experience better, so for example showing you recommendations, right? Just make that algorithm better, and so there's a great deal of effort, as you might expect, at a company like this on that problem, but there's also work being done to just take any interactivity between you and the system out of the picture completely. We talked a little bit about this earlier, that, for example, we're working on technology that when you turn your TV on in the morning it should probably tune to the channel that you normally tune to in the morning. That's a pretty simple problem, in a sense, but you know, if I watch your viewing patterns and I see that you turn on a particular news show in the morning, why should you have to pick up the remote and change it from what you watched the night before to that channel? It should just happen. We talked about the Smart Resume stuff, that's obviously a fantastic use case for end users, so there's, you know, it's not surprising it's being used all over the technology set. It's in the home automation world. You know, it's in A/B testing, so trying to figure out the right cohorts to try different things in front of, so it's everywhere as you would expect. >> Right, right, it's pretty amazing. I mean there's just so many things going on, you know, kind of under the covers, some that we can see, some that we can't see where you guys are really kind of progressing, you know kind of the leading edge, cutting edge customer experience with something that people interact with every single day. >> That's right. >> Yeah, cool stuff. Well Mike, thanks for taking a few minutes. Congratulations on the Eye Control; really a cool story, and look forward to more publicity around that because that's a really important piece of technology. >> Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. >> All right. He's Mike, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE. We're at Comcast Silicon Valley Innovation Center. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (smooth music)

>>from the heart of Silicon Valley. It's the Q covering Comcast Innovation Date to you by Comcast. >>Hey, welcome back it ready? Geoffrey here with the Cube were in the Comcast Silicon Valley Innovation Center here in Sunnyvale, just off the runways here. Moffett feels really cool place, a lot of fun toys and gadgets that I have not got to play with yet, but I got to do before I leave. But the conversation today is really about customer experience. We had a small panel this morning of experts talking about customer experience. What does that mean? How do we do a better job at it? And we're excited. Have an expert brought in just for this conversation. She's a net Franz, the founder and CEO of C X Journey, and it's great to see you. >>Thank you. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. Absolutely been a fun morning. >>What did you think? >>What were some of your impressions of the conversation this morning? You know >>what? It's always great to sit in a room with so many people who have been living and breathing this customer experience journey. And so it was great to hear what Comcast is doing. It was great to hear from some of the other folks in the room. What are some of the latest trends in terms of data and technology and where customer experiences headed? Yeah, it was awesome. >>So customer experiences, it's >>a little bit over. It's almost kind of digital transformation a little bit. Everyone's like experience, experience, experience. And that's a big, complicated topic. How do you help customers really kind of break it down, make it into something manageable, make it into something they can actually approach and have some success with >>us? So I spent a lot of my time working with clients who are brand new to this field, right? I had a former boss who said that they can't even spell C X. Right. So yes, so So yes. So I go in there and I really listen and understand what their pain points are and what they need help with and then get them started on that journey. Basically, soup did not see X strategy work. We typically start out making sure that the right foundation is in place in terms of the executives that they're all a line that they're all committed to this work. The culture. We've got the right culture in place. We've got, you know, some feedback from employees and from customers of what's going well and what's not. And then from there we dive right into a phase that I call understanding. And that's listening to customers listening to employees developing personas so that we can really understand who customers are and who are employees really are, and then also journey mapping to really walk in their shoes to understand the experience that they're having today and then design. Use that to design a better experience for tomorrow. So there's a lot of work that happens up front to make you know the things that we talked about in there this morning. >>Right? Happen. What's the biggest gap? Because everyone >>always talks about being customer centric. And I'm sure if you talk to any sea, of course, were customer centric and you know, we see it would like would like Amazon Andy Jassy and that team is just crazy hyper customer centric and they executed with specific behavior. So what's the part that's usually missing that they think their customer centric, but they're really not? >>Yeah, I think you just hit the nail on the head with the word execute, right? So there's a stat out there that's been out there for forever, and we know it. Every single company, every single business interviews or surveys us to death, right? So they have all this great feedback, but they do nothing with it. They just don't execute. They just don't act on it. And they've got such rich feedback and and and customers want to tell them, Hey, you're doing this well behaved. This is not going so well. So please fix it because we want to continue doing business with you. And so, yeah, it's about execution. I think that's one problem. The other problem is that they focus on the metrics and not on actually doing something with the feedback >>temporary experience. Do they just ignore it? Do they not have the systems to capture it? Are they are they kind of analysis? Paralysis? He just said they have all this great data, and I'm not doing anything about it. Why >>there it is that, too Analysis, paralysis. Let's just beat the numbers to death and and what's the What's the quote about beating the number until the beating the data until the talks >>kind of thing. You know, I don't know that something. I know I'm just mess that, >>but But yeah, they don't have the system in place to actually. Then take what they learn and go do something with it. And I think a big part of it. We talked about this in the room this morning, too. Was around having that commitment from the top, having the CEO say, Listen, we're doing this and we're going to when we listen to, our customers were going toe act on what we hear, So But they don't They don't have the infrastructure in place to actually go and then do it >>right. It's pretty interesting. You have, Ah, a deck that you shared in advance Eight Principles of customer centric city. Yes. And of the aid three are people people before products people before profits people before metrics. That sounds great, but it sounds contrary to everything we hear these days about measure, measure, measure, measure, measure. Right? It's human resource is it almost feels like we're kind of back to these kind of time. Motion studies in tryingto optimize people as if they're a machine as opposed to being a person. >>Yeah, well, it's It's not, because we have to. The way that we could think about is we have to put the human into this. That's what customer experience is all about, right? It's about putting the human in the experience. And it's interesting that you bring up that back because when I opened that talk, I'm show a comm your commercial from Acura, and it's if you've never seen it. It's called the test. If you can google it and find the video and it's really about. If we don't view them as dummies, something amazing happens. That's the tagline, right? And so it's really about people. The experience is all about people. Our business is all about people. That's why we're in business, right? It's all about the customer. It's for the customer. And who's gonna deliver that? Our employees? And so we've got to put the people first, and then the numbers will come >>right. Another one that you had in there, I just have to touch on was forget the golden rule, which which I always thought the golden rules of us. You know, he has the gold makes a >>rule. You're talking about a different golden, which is really treat. Treat others >>not the way you think they want, that you want to be treated but treat people the way that they want to be treated in such a small It's the pylons, but it's so important. >>It's so important. And I love this example that I share. Thio just recently read a book by Hal Rosenbluth called The Customer Comes Second, right, and to most people, that seems counterintuitive, but he's really referring to The employee comes more first, which I love, and I'm the example that he gives us. He's left handed and he goes into a restaurant. He frequents this restaurant all the time, and until I read this story, I never even thought about this. And now that I go to restaurants, I think about this all the time. The silverware is always on the right hand side, but he's left handed, so this restaurant that he frequents the waitress. He always seemed to have the same waitress she caught on, and so when when he would come into the restaurant, she would set the silvery down on the left hand side. for him that's treating people the way that they want to be treated. And that's what customer experience is all about, >>right? One of the topics that he talked about in the session this morning was, um, the reputation that service experiences really defined by the sum of all your interactions. And it's really important to kind of keep a ah view of that that it's not just an interaction with many, many interactions over a period of time that sounds so hard to manage. And then there's also this kind of the last experience, which is probably overweighted based on the whole. >>How do people >>keep that in mind? How did they How did they, you know, make sure that they're thinking that kind of holistically about the customer engagement across a number of fronts within the company. >>Well, you've got to think >>about it as think about it as a journey, not just touch points, not just a bunch of little touch points, because if you think about just the last experience or just a touch point, then you're thinking about transactions. You're not thinking about a relationship, and what we're trying to get at is customer relationships and not just transactional, you know, it's it's they're in, they're out, they're gone, right? So what? We want relationships. We want them to be customers for life. And and that's the only way that we're gonna do it is if we focus on the journey, >>right? What about the challenge of that which was special suddenly becomes the norm. And we talked a lot about, you know, kind of consumers ations of i t. Because as soon as I get great results on a Google search or, you know, I find exactly what I need on Amazon in two clicks and then to take that into whatever my be to be your B to C application as when Now those expectations are not being driven by what I promised to deliver. But they're being driven by all these third party app said. I have a no control up and they're probably developing at a faster pace of innovation that I can keep up housing people, you know, kind of absorb that deal with it and try to take some lessons from that in the delivery of their own application >>essay. You you brought up two things there which I want to address the 1st 1 to which was about the delighting customers. But to answer your question is really about focusing on your customers and your customers needs on. And that's why I talk a lot about customer understanding, right? It's it's about listening to your customers. It's about developing personas and really understanding who they are, what their pain points are, what their problems are, what needs. Are they trying to solve our problems? Are they trying to solve on and then walking in their shoes through journey, mapping? And that understanding allows us to design an experience for our customers, right for our customers. If we don't solve a problem up for our customers, they will go elsewhere and they'll get their problems solved elsewhere, right? So I think that's really important. The first part of your question was, our point was around delighting our customers, and you're absolutely right. We don't have to delight customers at every touch point. I know that's counter to what a lot of people might say or think, but to your point, once we delighted every touch point, now it becomes the new norm. It's an expectation that has now been set and now delight, Where does it stop? You know, Delight is here, and then it's here. And then it's here. And so So it's It's a whole different. So my thinking on that is that most businesses cannot delight at every touch point, and they certainly don't. Um, I think we need to meet expectations and the and the only way that we can do that is to listen and understand and and and then act on what we hear. And, um, most businesses are still very primitive, even when it comes to that, >>right? Okay. Give you the last word. What's what's the kind of the most consistent, easy to fix stumble that most customers are doing when you when you get engaged and you walk in, what's that one thing that you know with 90% confidence factor that when you walk in, this is gonna be, you know, one of these three or four little things that they should stop doing or that they should do just just just get off the baseline? >>Yeah, I think it's You know what I think it >>za combination of sort of speed and responsiveness. I'll give an example. I won't mean the company, but But I thought, man, in this day and age, this shouldn't be happening, right? It was a company that I contacted. I was supposed to set up an account and they said I couldn't for it just wasn't working. I tried different browsers, just wasn't working. So I sent them and eat. First. I tried to call, but I got stuck in Ivy are hell. And then I sent an email and my the email that I got back was an auto responder. That's I will reply within five business days. >>Five business days, Thio like, really, where? Why don't you just ask me to send a fax, right? You know, So So that's the kind >>of stuff that seriously I I want to solve that e mails like really in 2019. We're still responding in five business days. That's just that's just ludicrous. I think that's one of the and it's such it doesn't cost anything to respond in a timely manner and to respond at all right now. Here it is. It's been I haven't heard from them yet, so it's been like seven days now, so >>there's that just tweet tweet at the CEO going to, hopefully the >>CEO tweets and maybe doesn't tweet. >>I know, right? Yeah, well, in >>that you know nothing about opportunity for you because this is not an easy it's not an easy thing to do is it's hard to stay up with people's expectations and to drive new and innovative products when they don't necessarily even know how to engage with those things. >>Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, The field is wide open because, like I said, there's still so many companies that are still just trying to get the basics right. So >>Well, thanks for taking a few minutes of your time. Thanks for participating. Absolutely, She's in that. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube worth the Comcast Silicon Valley Innovation Center. Thanks for watching. We'll see next time.

(futuristic music) >> From the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the Cube covering Comcast Innovation Day. Brought to you by Comcast. >> Hey welcome back Jeff Frick here with the Cube. We're at the Comcast Silicon Valley Innovation Center here in Sunnyvale, just off the runway here at Moffett Field. Really interesting place, a lot of cool toys downstairs. But we had a conversation today about customer experience and kind of next gen customer experience, and how to drive a better customer experience so that you have a better customer relationship, and we're really excited to have our next guest. She's Kristy Schaffler, the director of customer experience for Comcast California regions. Kristy, great to see you. >> Thank you! Thanks for having me here, I appreciate it. >> Absolutely, so it's funny, we had this great little panel discussion talking about customer experience, but you kept coming back to employees, and really leading with employees before you worry about what's going on with the customer. Where does that mindset come from and how should people be prioritizing employees for the benefit of customers? >> So, you know, honestly, it all comes back to Comcast itself. It is a very strong employee culture. And so the company began as a small company, family owned, and I think that's what's permeated throughout the company as a whole. So when we started to introduced the best practices for a net promoter system overall, it was an easy grasp, I think, for employees to start looking at how is it that I'm going to be able to help overall? Because I think they're all out there trying to help each other. >> Right, well its funny, right? Because there's kind of two dynamics. There's a great dynamic of helping a teammate right? And this goes back to military rule and you fight for the person that you're with, and not necessarily some great cause or old white guys that are back thousands of miles away. But it's different in terms of getting bad news up to the boss. That's a really hard problem, and nobody wants to tell the boss bad news, and in fact, a lot of times, the bad news doesn't get up. >> Exactly. >> So how do you enable people to actually share the real bad news that they might be uncomfortable or not necessarily even addressable. >> Yeah, so what we did was we introduced our employees to the concept of elevations, and so what they do is they input an issue where they're struggling with helping out the customer. There's a barrier to them to be able to deliver the service we're expecting. And what happens is once that gets input, then that actually goes up into the region, we take a look at it and say "We can't really do anything with it here, but we can bump it up to the next level." That eventually gets to a point, especially in the case of employee tools, for example, where is has to go all the way up to the headquarters and there's a team that's ready and waiting for that to happen. So, when you tell them, "Hey, there's something broken here", they have to come back and respond within two weeks. They have to be able to get back with that employee to say "Here is what we're going to do about that" or maybe put on a map to say that we're going to eventually fix that. That communication goes directly back to the person who actually inputted. So, its a direct communication between the employee who's having the issue and the software developer who may actually own that tool. >> So it goes directly-- is it a special type of ticket, if you will? >> Exactly. >> That I want a post knowing that this is a-- I've decided its a high enough priority that I'm going to take the risk, and take the personal risk or professional risk to go ahead and escalate that up the chain of command? >> Right, so what I'm so proud about is we've gone back to the team and said "Give be your number one barrier that's holding you back?" . So they work it out amongst their peers about what they think should be the top issue. Then they get everybody else to watch that issue. Once you get a number of watchers on it, it becomes elevated into the company where it becomes a big issue, and its like Hey, there's a lot of people that look at this issue, want it resolved, and so as soon as they put that in, they assign it to the area that responsible, and that is a direction communication, because as soon as they comment, anybody who's watching that elevation gets an email in their inbox with the actual comment from the person who owns it. So, its a nice targeted communication for issues that they're having. >> So, is there any fanfare when there some big one that gets voted by the broader group that "Oh my gosh, this was a really big deal."? >> So recently, we had something that came up with our Xfinity Home, and so, as you probably know, we have the ability to have security where you can actually look at your cameras on your mobile app. And one of our technicians said "Hey guys, I'm hearing this from the customer.". So what they do is they come back in and they have a huddle with their team and have the discussion, and then that manager takes that and puts it into the system. What happened was it went straight back up to the person, they actually did a software update on it, And then our Senior Vice President of Customer Experience out of our corporate headquarters said "Hey guys, congratulations, that's fantastic! This got fixed!". Then that communication went directly back to the person who input it, so it's just a celebratory moment when you can be able to get that direct feedback from the customer, comes up through the employee. The employee's owning it as an issue that they can't solve personally, but they know to get it to the right people. >> Right. So you've talked a lot earlier today about employee tools, and so, you know, as you clearly there's something that you think is a great investment, how should people think about investment in employee tools actually manifesting itself in better customer experience with the company? >> Exactly. We actually had an elevation that was associated with that, where the employee was using a tool in the home, and when he was trying to check the health of the system, they found that there was a piece of the tool that was breaking off. And so, again, they took it back to the owner of that tool, and they worked with the manufacturer to go back and redesign that tool, so that meant that the customer was able to get better service, because of their tools aren't working, that's what they depend on to be able to serve our customers. >> Right. >> And so, it's key that we take care of them. >> So, just curious, to kind of wrap it up, what has the focus on the NPS, both the score as well as the process, you know, kind of, what's happened from then? Not only the, you know, the direct result in terms of changing in the score and execution details, but more kind of the second order and unintended consequences of that focus? >> Yeah so we've definitely seen our net promoter score increase year over year, so that's very exciting, and we're celebrating that, and we're not there yet, so we still have a ways to go. But the other thing that we're seeing is that the employees are feeling empowered. They're feeling like that they can bring back issues, but something that they share with everybody, they feel like they have a sense of "I can help direct where we need to focus our time and make sure that those issues are being addressed". So, we have an employee survey. It's actually called the ENPS, so actually, we send that out every other month, and ask for employees, you know, "How do you feel about the workplace?", "Are you motivated?". We have some of the highest scores of any company of employees that are motivated because we have set up this system to basically come back and say "Let us know where you need help", and we're coming back in and helping. So, I'm excited about it. >> Great, alright Kristy, well we need to have another followup conversation about NPS another time-- >> Definitely! >> --I need to get educated, but thanks for spending a few minutes, and inviting us to attend today's event. >> Thank you so much, I appreciate it. >> Alright, she's Kristy, I'm Jeff, you're watching the Cube. We're at Comcast Silicon Valley Innovation Center. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (futuristic music)

>> From the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE! Covering Comcast Innovation Day. Brought to you by Comcast. >> Hey welcome back, get ready, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we're at the Comcast Silicon Valley Innovation Center, here in Sunnyvale, California. They had a really cool thing today, it was a customer experience day, brought a bunch of Comcast executives and a bunch of thought leaders in the customer experience base. We're excited to come down and sit in and talk to some of the guests, and really excited about our next guest, 'cause he's an anthropologist, he's Brian Solis, digital analyst, author, analyst, anthropologist, futurist, Brian, you've got it all going on, thanks for taking a few minutes of your day. >> Course, this is a really great conversation, so, I'm happy to be here. >> So first off, just kind of impressions of the conversation earlier today, talking about customer experience, the expectation, consumerization of IT is something we talk a lot about, where people's expectations of the way this stuff is supposed to work, change, all the time, and what was magical and almost impossible, like talking on a cell phone in your car, suddenly becomes expected and the norm, so how do you think of this, as you look at these big, sweeping changes that we're going through? >> Well today's conversation I think has been sort of, a spotlight on what's most important, which is innovation not for the sake of innovation, but innovation for the sake of pushing the customer experience forward, changing customer behaviors in a way that's going to create a new standard for experiences, and that way you become the leader in engagement. Everybody else has to catch up to you, and what was so important is that we're here at a company with all the love that wasn't the best in customer experience several years ago, and now they're sort of one of the pioneers in what customer experience needs to be, from a technological standpoint, a customer service standpoint, and an overall experience standpoint, right? >> I want to jump into the voice capability specifically, because I don't think there's really enough accolades as to what Comcast has achieved with the voice remote, I think if you don't have it you don't know it's there, and the ability to migrate across hundreds or thousands of channels, multiple services, to find the show that you want with just the ask of your voice is amazing. What's even more amazing is trying to teach people to actually navigate that way, so changing people's behavior in the way they interact with devices is not a simple thing. >> So, it's come up, and it's an expression shared in many UI and UX circles, which is the best interface is no interface, and in many ways, voice was the next frontier, that's a frontier that was pioneered, I think at a mass level by Amazon and Alexa, Apple and Siri, Google and Ok Google, we're really starting to see that voice as a UI is much more natural, what makes it so complex is all of the back end, I think Comcast has done a really nice job in the simplistic linguistic engagement of saying the name of a TV show or a genre of shows or movies, and then the back end to be reimagined in order to bring you something that's not just this long list of stuff, that is much more intuitive and helps you get to what they call time to joy, much faster. That's game changing, right, but that isn't just something that Comcast looked, for example, to just Alexa, or anything specifically, it looked, and also, especially not to other cable companies. They looked to the best-in-class experiences in every area, to pick those parts and build something altogether new that becomes the new standard, and I think voice, one of the things that you and I were talking about, Jeff, earlier, was kids, there was a time when they would walk up to a screen and they still do to some regard, where they want to do this, but I have a three year old at home who has a toy remote control, and I had to record video from afar of just watching her talk into her toy remote, "Mickey Mouse Club, Mickey Mouse Club," and just sitting there, with all the patience in the world, nothing was happening but expecting that something was going to happen. And it's just a new standard. The other thing, though, is that we're not done, we now live in an era of AI, machine learning, automation, so personalization now is really going to start to build upon voice experiences where it's just simply turning on the TV is going to give you instant options of all of the things you're most likely going to want to watch all on one nav. >> Right, it's just, we say that and yet we still have qwerty keyboards, right, which were specifically designed to slow people down and yet now we're not using arm typewriters anymore, and we still have qwerty keyboards, so changing people's behavior is not easy, and it's interesting to see kind of these generational shifts based on the devices in which they grew up using, kind of define the way in which they expect everything else to work. But it's, I still get the email, maybe, or even, they talked about here at Comcast, where instead of just saying NCAA Football, it knows I like to watch Stanford football, it suggests, maybe you should just say Stanford football, so there's still kind of a lot of education, surprising amount of education that has to happen. >> Yes and no, if you think about the conversation, I often talk about it in terms of iteration and innovation, iteration is doing the same things better, innovation is creating new value, and if you look at the evolution of the remote control, I mean just go back 50 years, it has gotten progressively worse over time, in fact on average, today's remote control has 70 buttons on it, and if you think about iteration in that regard, we've completely started to fail in the user interface, I don't know that anybody has mastered their relationship with the remote control except for some geeks, so I think if anything, voice is going to change the game for the better. >> Yeah, I was in the business for a long time, and now I know what killed the VCR, right, was the flashing 12, nobody could ever get their flashing 12, and for all the young people, look it up on the internet, you'll figure out what a VCR and a flashing 12 is. So you talk about something called Generation C, what is Generation C, why should we be paying attention? >> Look, I think voice is a good example of Generation C, so anybody who uses, you mentioned qwerty, right, I don't know that I've actually even used qwerty in a sentence in a really long time, but I'm old enough to, I trained on a manual typewriter back in the day, so it doesn't mean that I don't get it, it means that my behaviors and my expectations as a human being have changed, because of my relationship, my personal relationship, so for example, in consumerization of technology and IT, my personal relationship has changed with technology, and so what I had found in my research over the years was especially when it comes to customer experience, if you study a customer journey, and you look at demographics of these personas that we've created, you can see specifically that people who live a mobile-first lifestyle, regardless of age, will make decisions the same way, they're increasingly impatient, they're demanding, they're self-centered, I call 'em accidental narcissists, they, time, convenience are really important, they want personalization, their standards are much different than the personas that we've developed in the past, and so I gave it a name, which is Generation C, because it wasn't one, where C stood for connected, it wasn't one bound by age, or traditional demographics, education, income, it was defined by shared interests, behaviors, and shared outcomes, and it was a game changer for all things, if you're going to point innovation or customer experience or whatever it is, and you're going to aim at that growing customer segment, then they're going to have a different set of needs than your traditional customer, right? >> But it's so bizarre, again, how quickly the novel becomes expected baseline, and how the great search algorithm that we get out of Google, which is based on lots and lots and lots and lots of data, and a bunch of smart people and a whole bunch of hardware and software, suddenly now we expect that same search result if we're searching on, pick some random retailer or some other random website, when in fact, that is special, but we have this crazy sliding scale of what's expected and how can companies stay out in front of that, at least chase close behind, 'cause it's a very different world in how fast the expectations change. >> I'm sorry, I totally spaced out 'cause my attention span went away. I'm just kidding, I'm kidding. >> Well I didn't even get to the attention economy question yet. >> It's, you're competing at a much different level today, and I think that's what so disruptive for companies, is that they're still thinking that momentum and progress and experience and performance and success, I have to say that success is the worse teacher when it comes to innovation because you're basing your decisions on the future based on things that you did in the past. So what do companies need to get, is that the customers change, I'll give you an example. I think in many ways, companies compete against Uber, right, because Uber has changed the game for what it takes to get a service brought to you, and to give it to you and take you where you need to go, where time and convenience are big factors of that. So for example, one of the things I studied was how long is too long to wait for an Uber before you open Lyft in certain markets, and the reason that I wanted to do that was I wanted to show that the number went down every single year. Now, for example, Uber will advertise in Sydney that the average pickup time is three minutes and 39 seconds, because it knows it adds a competitive advantage over everybody else, because it's important, because once that experience happens to you and you get something your way fast, you're not going to suddenly realize, when you're at the Department of Motor Vehicles, that "Well, I understand that this isn't Uber, "and therefore I shouldn't expect "to have things done at a much more efficient "and personal manner." You take that mindset subconsciously to everything you do, so while it's a threat, it's also an opportunity, but you got to break that executive mindset to say, "How can we take "best-in-class experiences across the board, "and how can we apply it to what we do?" >> Yeah, again, an interesting concept in the conversation earlier today, where there was a question about ROI, and you threw it back as ROE, return on experience, so how should people start to adjust their thinking, because the thing on, return on investment implies almost a very small kind of direct impact, kind of one to one benefit, where really, return on experience implies a much broader, kind of accidental benefits, benefits across a lot of parameters that you may or may not necessarily be measuring, it's a very, a much better way to measure your investment. >> Look, it's almost impossible to get away from the ROI conversation, it's important, executives have to make decisions based on what they know the outcomes are going to be, a lot of this is, you don't know what you don't know, and so if you can tie some types of rudimentary metrics that are going to show progress and also return, it helps, but at the same time, I always say, what happens in the ROI equation if I equals ignorance, what's the return of ignorance? What's the return of not doing something, and so what I tried to demonstrate in a book I wrote about experience design, which was called X, it was, let's break it down to what we're actually trying to do, the word experience actually means an emotional reaction to a moment, and so for example, in a high sales pitch situation like a dealership for an automobile, that's not a good experience. If you have to call customer service, you've probably not had a good experience, and all of those things are emotional, so if you can design for emotional outcomes, where people are going to feel great in the moment and feel great afterwards, that is a metric that you can have a before and after state. The likelihood of attaching that emotion to things like loyalty, customer lifetime value, growth, then you can get to your ROI in a different way, but you have to first do it with intention. >> Yeah, Brian, fascinating conversation, we could go all day, but unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there, but thanks for joining today, and thanks for spending a few minutes with us. >> Thank you, thank you, it was a pleasure. >> Absolutely, he's Brian, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE, we're at the Comcast Innovation Center in Sunnyvale, thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (techno music)