>>Hey everyone, welcome to the Cube's coverage of AWS Reinvent 2022. Lisa Martin here with you with Subaru ier, one of our alumni who's now the CEO of Aerospike. Sabu. Great to have you on the program. Thank you for joining us. >>Great as always, to be on the cube. Luisa, good to meet you. >>So, you know, every company these days has got to be a data company, whether it's a retailer, a manufacturer, a grocer, a automotive company. But for a lot of companies, data is underutilized, yet a huge asset that is value added. Why do you think companies are struggling so much to make data a value added asset? >>Well, you know, we, we see this across the board when I talk to customers and prospects. There's a desire from the business and from it actually to leverage data to really fuel newer applications, newer services, newer business lines, if you will, for companies. I think the struggle is one, I think one the, you know, the plethora of data that is created, you know, surveys say that over the next three years data is gonna be, you know, by 2025, around 175 zetabytes, right? A hundred and zetabytes of data is gonna be created. And that's really a, a, a growth of north of 30% year over year. But the more important, and the interesting thing is the real time component of that data is actually growing at, you know, 35% cagr. And what enterprises desire is decisions that are made in real time or near real time. >>And a lot of the challenges that do exist today is that either the infrastructure that enterprises have in place was never built to actually manipulate data in real time. The second is really the ability to actually put something in place which can handle spikes yet be cost efficient if you'll, so you can build for really peak loads, but then it's very expensive to operate that particular service at normal loads. So how do you build something which actually works for you, for both you, both users, so to speak? And the last point that we see out there is even if you're able to, you know, bring all that data, you don't have the processing capability to run through that data. So as a result, most enterprises struggle with one, capturing the data, you know, making decisions from it in real time and really operating it at the cost point that they need to operate it at. >>You know, you bring up a great point with respect to real time data access. And I think one of the things that we've learned the last couple of years is that access to real time data, it's not a nice to have anymore. It's business critical for organizations in any industry. Talk about that as one of the challenges that organizations are facing. >>Yeah. When, when, when we started Aerospike, right when the company started, it started with the premise that data is gonna grow, number one, exponentially. Two, when applications open up to the internet, there's gonna be a flood of users and demands on those applications. And that was true primarily when we started the company in the ad tech vertical. So ad tech was the first vertical where there was a lot of data both on the supply side and the demand side from an inventory of ads that were available. And on the other hand, they had like microseconds or milliseconds in which they could make a decision on which ad to put in front of you and I so that we would click or engage with that particular ad. But over the last three to five years, what we've seen is as digitization has actually permeated every industry out there, the need to harness data in real time is pretty much present in every industry. >>Whether that's retail, whether that's financial services, telecommunications, e-commerce, gaming and entertainment. Every industry has a desire. One, the innovative companies, the small companies rather, are innovating at a pace and standing up new businesses to compete with the larger companies in each of these verticals. And the larger companies don't wanna be left behind. So they're standing up their own competing services or getting into new lines of business that really harness and are driven by real time data. So this compelling pressures, one, the customer exp you know, customer experience is paramount and we as customers expect answers in, you know, an instant in real time. And on the other hand, the way they make decisions is based on a large data set because you know, larger data sets actually propel better decisions. So there's competing pressures here, which essentially drive the need. One from a business perspective, two from a customer perspective to harness all of this data in real time. So that's what's driving an inces need to actually make decisions in real or near real time. >>You know, I think one of the things that's been in short supply over the last couple of years is patients we do expect as consumers, whether we're in our business lives, our personal lives that we're going to be getting, be given information and data that's relevant, it's personal to help us make those real time decisions. So having access to real time data is really business critical for organizations across any industries. Talk about some of the main capabilities that modern data applications and data platforms need to have. What are some of the key capabilities of a modern data platform that need to be delivered to meet demanding customer expectations? >>So, you know, going back to your initial question Lisa, around why is data really a high value but underutilized or underleveraged asset? One of the reasons we see is a lot of the data platforms that, you know, some of these applications were built on have been then around for a decade plus and they were never built for the needs of today, which is really driving a lot of data and driving insight in real time from a lot of data. So there are four major capabilities that we see that are essential ingredients of any modern data platform. One is really the ability to, you know, operate at unlimited scale. So what we mean by that is really the ability to scale from gigabytes to even petabytes without any degradation in performance or latency or throughput. The second is really, you know, predictable performance. So can you actually deliver predictable performance as your data size grows or your throughput grows or your concurrent user on that application of service grows? >>It's really easy to build an application that operates at low scale or low throughput or low concurrency, but performance usually starts degrading as you start scaling one of these attributes. The third thing is the ability to operate and always on globally resilient application. And that requires a, a really robust data platform that can be up on a five, nine basis globally, can support global distribution because a lot of these applications have global users. And the last point is, goes back to my first answer, which is, can you operate all of this at a cost point? Which is not prohibitive, but it makes sense from a TCO perspective. Cuz a lot of times what we see is people make choices of data platforms and as ironically their service or applications become more successful and more users join their journey, the revenue starts going up, the user base starts going up, but the cost basis starts crossing over the revenue and they're losing money on the service, ironically, as the service becomes more popular. So really unlimited scale, predictable performance always on, on a globally resilient basis and low tco. These are the four essential capabilities of any modern data platform. >>So then talk to me with those as the four main core functionalities of a modern data platform. How does aerospace deliver that? >>So we were built, as I said, from the from day one to operate at unlimited scale and deliver predictable performance. And then over the years as we work with customers, we build this incredible high availability capability which helps us deliver the always on, you know, operations. So we have customers who are, who have been on the platform 10 years with no downtime for example, right? So we are talking about an amazing continuum of high availability that we provide for customers who operate these, you know, globally resilient services. The key to our innovation here is what we call the hybrid memory architecture. So, you know, going a little bit technically deep here, essentially what we built out in our architecture is the ability on each node or each server to treat a bank of SSDs or solid state devices as essentially extended memory. So you're getting memory performance, but you're accessing these SSDs, you're not paying memory prices, but you're getting memory performance as a result of that. >>You can attach a lot more data to each node or each server in your distributed cluster. And when you kind of scale that across basically a distributed cluster you can do with aerospike, the same things at 60 to 80% lower server count and as a result 60 to 80% lower TCO compared to some of the other options that are available in the market. Then basically, as I said, that's the key kind of starting point to the innovation. We layer around capabilities like, you know, replication change, data notification, you know, synchronous and asynchronous replication. The ability to actually stretch a single cluster across multiple regions. So for example, if you're operating a global service, you can have a single aerospace cluster with one node in San Francisco, one northern New York, another one in London. And this would be basically seamlessly operating. So that, you know, this is strongly consistent. >>Very few no SQL data platforms are strongly consistent or if they are strongly consistent, they will actually suffer performance degradation. And what strongly consistent means is, you know, all your data is always available, it's guaranteed to be available, there is no data lost anytime. So in this configuration that I talked about, if the node in London goes down, your application still continues to operate, right? Your users see no kind of downtime and you know, when London comes up, it rejoins the cluster and everything is back to kind of the way it was before, you know, London left the cluster so to speak. So the op, the ability to do this globally resilient, highly available kind of model is really, really powerful. A lot of our customers actually use that kind of a scenario and we offer other deployment scenarios from a higher availability perspective. So everything starts with HMA or hybrid memory architecture and then we start building out a lot of these other capabilities around the platform. >>And then over the years, what our customers have guided us to do is as they're putting together a modern kind of data infrastructure, we don't live in a silo. So aerospace gets deployed with other technologies like streaming technologies or analytics technologies. So we built connectors into Kafka, pulsar, so that as you're ingesting data from a variety of data sources, you can ingest them at very high ingest speeds and store them persistently into Aerospike. Once the data is in Aerospike, you can actually run spark jobs across that data in a, in a multithreaded parallel fashion to get really insight from that data at really high, high throughput and high speed, >>High throughput, high speed, incredibly important, especially as today's landscape is increasingly distributed. Data centers, multiple public clouds, edge IOT devices, the workforce embracing more and more hybrid these days. How are you ex helping customers to extract more value from data while also lowering costs? Go into some customer examples cause I know you have some great ones. >>Yeah, you know, I think we have, we have built an amazing set of customers and customers actually use us for some really mission critical applications. So, you know, before I get into specific customer examples, let me talk to you about some of kind of the use cases which we see out there. We see a lot of aerospace being used in fraud detection. We see us being used in recommendations and since we use get used in customer data profiles or customer profiles, customer 360 stores, you know, multiplayer gaming and entertainment, these are kind of the repeated use case digital payments. We power most of the digital payment systems across the globe. Specific example from a, from a specific example perspective, the first one I would love to talk about is PayPal. So if you use PayPal today, then you know when you actually paying somebody your transaction is, you know, being sent through aero spike to really decide whether this is a fraudulent transaction or not. >>And when you do that, you know, you and I as a customer not gonna wait around for 10 seconds for PayPal to say yay or me, we expect, you know, the decision to be made in an instant. So we are powering that fraud detection engine at PayPal for every transaction that goes through PayPal before us, you know, PayPal was missing out on about 2% of their SLAs, which was essentially millions of dollars, which they were losing because, you know, they were letting transactions go through and taking the risk that it, it's not a fraudulent transaction with the aerospace. They can now actually get a much better sla and the data set on which they compute the fraud score has gone up by, you know, several factors. So by 30 x if you will. So not only has the data size that is powering the fraud engine actually grown up 30 x with Aerospike. Yeah. But they're actually making decisions in an instant for, you know, 99.95% of their transactions. So that's, >>And that's what we expect as consumers, right? We want to know that there's fraud detection on the swipe regardless of who we're interacting with. >>Yes. And so that's a, that's a really powerful use case and you know, it's, it's a great customer, great customer success story. The other one I would talk about is really Wayfair, right? From retail and you know, from e-commerce. So everybody knows Wayfair global leader in really, you know, online home furnishings and they use us to power their recommendations engine and you know, it's basically if you're purchasing this, people who bought this but also bought these five other things, so on and so forth, they have actually seen the card size at checkout go by up to 30% as a result of actually powering their recommendations in G by through Aerospike. And they, they were able to do this by reducing the server count by nine x. So on one ninth of the servers that were there before aerospace, they're now powering their recommendation engine and seeing card size checkout go up by 30%. Really, really powerful in terms of the business outcome and what we are able to, you know, drive at Wayfair >>Hugely powerful as a business outcome. And that's also what the consumer wants. The consumer is expecting these days to have a very personalized, relevant experience that's gonna show me if I bought this, show me something else that's related to that. We have this expectation that needs to be really fueled by technology. >>Exactly. And you know, another great example you asked about, you know, customer stories, Adobe, who doesn't know Adobe, you know, they, they're on a, they're on a mission to deliver the best customer experience that they can and they're talking about, you know, great customer 360 experience at scale and they're modernizing their entire edge compute infrastructure to support this. With Aerospike going to Aerospike, basically what they have seen is their throughput go up by 70%, their cost has been reduced by three x. So essentially doing it at one third of the cost while their annual data growth continues at, you know, about north of 30%. So not only is their data growing, they're able to actually reduce their cost to actually deliver this great customer experience by one third to one third and continue to deliver great customer 360 experience at scale. Really, really powerful example of how you deliver Customer 360 in a world which is dynamic and you know, on a dataset which is constantly growing at north, north of 30% in this case. >>Those are three great examples, PayPal, Wayfair, Adobe talking about, especially with Wayfair when you talk about increasing their cart checkout sizes, but also with Adobe increasing throughput by over 70%. I'm looking at my notes here. While data is growing at 32%, that's something that every organization has to contend with data growth is continuing to scale and scale and scale. >>Yep. I, I'll give you a fun one here. So, you know, you may not have heard about this company, it's called Dream 11 and it's a company based out of India, but it's a very, you know, it's a fun story because it's the world's largest fantasy sports platform and you know, India is a nation which is cricket crazy. So you know, when, when they have their premier league going on, you know, there's millions of users logged onto the dream alone platform building their fantasy lead teams and you know, playing on that particular platform, it has a hundred million users, a hundred million plus users on the platform, 5.5 million concurrent users and they have been growing at 30%. So they are considered a, an amazing success story in, in terms of what they have accomplished and the way they have architected their platform to operate at scale. And all of that is really powered by aerospace where think about that they are able to deliver all of this and support a hundred million users, 5.5 million concurrent users all with you know, 99 plus percent of their transactions completing in less than one millisecond. Just incredible success story. Not a brand that is you know, world renowned but at least you know from a what we see out there, it's an amazing success story of operating at scale. >>Amazing success story, huge business outcomes. Last question for you as we're almost out of time is talk a little bit about Aerospike aws, the partnership GRAVITON two better together. What are you guys doing together there? >>Great partnership. AWS has multiple layers in terms of partnerships. So you know, we engage with AWS at the executive level. They plan out, really roll out of new instances in partnership with us, making sure that, you know, those instance types work well for us. And then we just released support for Aerospike on the graviton platform and we just announced a benchmark of Aerospike running on graviton on aws. And what we see out there is with the benchmark, a 1.6 x improvement in price performance and you know, about 18% increase in throughput while maintaining a 27% reduction in cost, you know, on graviton. So this is an amazing story from a price performance perspective, performance per wat for greater energy efficiencies, which basically a lot of our customers are starting to kind of talk to us about leveraging this to further meet their sustainability target. So great story from Aero Aerospike and aws, not just from a partnership perspective on a technology and an executive level, but also in terms of what joint outcomes we are able to deliver for our customers. >>And it sounds like a great sustainability story. I wish we had more time so we would talk about this, but thank you so much for talking about the main capabilities of a modern data platform, what's needed, why, and how you guys are delivering that. We appreciate your insights and appreciate your time. >>Thank you very much. I mean, if, if folks are at reinvent next week or this week, come on and see us at our booth. We are in the data analytics pavilion. You can find us pretty easily. Would love to talk to you. >>Perfect. We'll send them there. So Ira, thank you so much for joining me on the program today. We appreciate your insights. >>Thank you Lisa. >>I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cubes coverage of AWS Reinvent 2022. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, friends. Welcome back to The Cube's live coverage of AWS re:Invent 2022. We're in Vegas. Lovely Las Vegas. Beautiful outside, although I have only seen outside today once, but very excited to be at re:Invent. We're hearing between 50,000 and 70,000 attendees and it's insane, but people are ready to be back. This morning's keynote by CEO Adam Selipsky was full of great messages, big focus on data, customers, partners, the ecosystem. So excited. And I'm very pleased to welcome back one of our alumni to the program, David Shacochis, VP Enterprise Portfolio Strategy Product Management at Lumen. David, welcome back. >> Lisa, good to be here. The Five Timers Club. >> You are in the Five Timers Club. This is David's fifth appearance on the show. And we were talking before we went live- >> Do we do the jacket now and do we do the jacket later? >> Yeah, the jacket will come later. >> Okay. >> The Five Timers Club, like on SNL. We're going to have that for The Cube. We'll get you measured up and get that all fitted for you. >> That'd be better. >> So talk a little bit about Lumen. 'Cause last time you hear it wasn't Lumen. >> We weren't Lumen last time. So this is the first time... last time we were here on The Cube at re:Invent. This was probably 2019 or so. We were a different company. The company was called CenturyLink back then. We rebranded in 2020 to really represent our identity as a delivery of...as a solutions provider over our fiber network. So Lumen is the corporate brand, the company name. It represents basically a lot of the fiber that's been laid throughout the world and in North America and in enterprise metropolitan areas over the past 10 to 15 years. You know, companies like CenturyLink and Quest and Level 3, all those companies have really rolled up into building that core asset of the network. So Lumen is really the brand for the 21st century for the company, really focused on delivering services for the enterprise and then delivering a lot of value added services around that core network asset. >> So rebranding during the pandemic, what's been the customer feedback and sentiment? >> Yeah, I think customers have really actually appreciated it as certainly a more technology oriented brand, right? Sort of shifting away a little bit from some of the communications and telecom background of the company and the heritage. And while those assets that were built up during that period of time have been substantial, and we still build off of those assets going forward, really what a lot of the customer feedback has been is that it puts us in a posture to be a little bit more of a business solutions provider for customers, right? So there's a lot of things that we can do with that core network asset, the fiber networking a lot of the services that we launch on that in terms of public IP, you know, public internet capacity, private networking, private VPNs, VoIP and voice services. These are services that you'd expect from a company like that. But there's a lot of services inside the Lumen brand that you might surprise you, right? There's an edge computing capability that can deliver five milliseconds of latency within 95% of North American enterprise. >> Wow. >> There's a threat detection lab that goes and takes all of the traffic flowing over the public side of our network and analyzes it in a data lake and turns it into threat intelligence that we then offer off to our customers on a subscription basis. There's a production house that goes and, you know, does production networking for major sports arenas and sports events. There's a wide range of services inside of Lumen that really what the Lumen brand allows us to do is start talking about what those services can do and what networking can do for our customers in the enterprise in a more comprehensive way. >> So good changes, big brand changes for Lumen in the last couple of years. Also, I mean, during a time of such turmoil in the world, we've seen work change dramatically. You know, everybody...companies had to pivot massively quickly a couple years ago. >> Yep. >> Almost approaching three years ago, which is crazy amazing to be digital because they had to be able to survive. >> They did >> Now they're looking at being able to thrive, but now we're also in this hybrid work environment. The future of work has changed. >> Totally. >> Almost permanently. >> Yep. >> How is Lumen positioned to address some of the permanent changes to the work environments? Like the last time we were at re:Invented- >> Yeah. >> In person. This didn't exist. >> That's right. So really, it's one of the things we talk to our customers almost the most about is this idea of the future of work. And, you know, we really think about the future of work as about, you know, workers and workloads and the networks that connect them. You think about how much all of those demands are shifting and changing, right? What we were talking about, and it's very easy for all of us to conceptualize what the changing face of the worker looks like, whether those are knowledge workers or frontline workers the venues in which people are working the environments and that connectivity, predictability of those work desk environments changes so significantly. But workloads are changing and, you know we're sitting here at a trade show that does nothing but celebrate the transformation of workloads. Workloads running in ways in business logic and capturing of data and analysis of data. The changing methodologies and the changing formats of workloads, and then the changing venues for workloads. So workloads are running in places that never used to be data centers before. Workloads are running in interesting places and in different and challenging locations for what didn't used to be the data center. And so, you know, the workloads and the workloads are in a very dynamic situation. And the networks that connect them have to be dynamic, and they have to be flexible. And that's really why a lot of what Lumen invests in is working on the networks that connect workers and workloads both from a visibility and a managed services perspective to make sure that we're removing blind spots and then removing potential choke points and capacity issues, but then also being adaptable and dynamic enough to be able to go and reconfigure that network to reach all of the different places that, you know, workers and workloads are going to evolve into. What you'll find in a lot of cases, you know, the workers...a common scenario in the enterprise. A 500 person company with, you know, five offices and maybe one major facility. You know, that's now a 505 office company. >> Right. >> Right? The challenge of the network and the challenge of connecting workers and workloads is really one of the main conversations we have with our customers heading into this 21st century. >> What are some of the things that they're looking forward to in terms of embracing the future of work knowing this is probably how it's going to remain? >> Yeah, I think companies are really starting to experiment carefully and start to think about what they can do and certainly think about what they can do in the cloud with things like what the AWS platform allows them to do with some of the AWS abstractions and the AWS services allow them to start writing software for, and they're starting to really carefully, but very creatively and reach out into their you know, their base of enterprise data, their base of enterprise value to start running some experiments. We actually had a really interesting example of that in a session that Lumen shared here at re:Invent yesterday. You know, for the few hundred people that were there. You know, I think we got a lot of great feedback. It was really interesting session about the...really gets at this issue of the future of work and the changing ways that people are working. It actually was a really cool use case we worked on with Major League Baseball, Fox Sports, and AWS with the... using the Lumen network to essentially virtualize the production truck. Right? So you've all heard that, you know, the sports metaphor of, you know, the folks in the booth were sitting there started looking down and they're saying, oh great job by the guys or the gals in the truck. >> Yep. >> Right? That are, you know, that bring in that replay or great camera angle. They're always talking about the team and their production truck. Well, that production truck is literally a truck sitting outside the stadium. >> Yep. >> Full of electronics and software and gear. We were able to go and for a Major League Baseball game in...back in August, we were able to go and work with AWS, using the Lumen network, working with our partners and our customers at Fox Sports and virtualize all of that gear inside the truck. >> Wow. That's outstanding. >> Yep. So it was a live game. You know, they simulcast it, right? So, you know, we did our part of the broadcast and many hundreds of people, you know, saw that live broadcast was the first time they tried doing it. But, you know, to your point, what are enterprises doing? They're really starting to experiment, sort to push the envelope, right? They're kind of running things in new ways, you know, obviously hedging their bets, right? And sort of moving their way and sort of blue-green testing their way into the future by trying things out. But, you know, this is a massive revenue opportunity for a Major League Baseball game. You know, a premier, you know, Sunday night baseball contest between the Yankees and the Cardinals. We were able to go and take the entire truck, virtualize it down to a small rack of connectivity gear. Basically have that production network run over redundant fiber paths on the Lumen network up into AWS. And AWS is where all that software worked. The technical director of the show sitting in his office in North Carolina. >> Wow. >> The sound engineer is sitting in, you know, on his porch in Connecticut. Right? They were able to go and do the work of production anywhere while connected to AWS and then using the Lumen network, right? You know, the high powered capabilities of Lumens network underlay to be able to, you know, go and design a network topology and a worked topology that really wasn't possible before. >> Right. It's nice to hear, to your point, that customers are really embracing experimentation. >> Right. >> That's challenging to, obviously there was a big massive forcing function a couple of years ago where they didn't have a choice if they wanted to survive and eventually succeed and grow. >> Yeah. >> But the mindset of experimentation requires cultural change and that's a hard thing to do especially for I would think legacy organizations like Major League Baseball, but it sounds like they have the appetite. >> Yeah. They have the interest. >> They've been a fairly innovative organization for some time. But, you know, you're right. That idea of experimenting and that idea of trying out new things. Many people have observed, right? It's that forcing function of the pandemic that really drove a lot of organizations to go and make a lot of moves really quickly. And then they realized, oh, wait a minute. You know... I guess there's some sort of storytelling metaphor in there at some point of people realizing, oh wait, I can swim in these waters, right? I can do this. And so now they're starting to experiment and push the envelope even more using platforms like AWS, but then using a lot of the folks in the AWS partner network like Lumen, who are designing and sort of similarly inspired to deliver, you know, on demand and virtualized and dynamic capabilities within the core of our network and then within the services that our network can and the ways that our network connects to AWS. All of that experimentation now is possible because a lot of the things you need to do to try out the experiment are things you can get on demand and you can kind of pat, you can move back, you can learn. You can try new things and you can evolve. >> Right. >> Yep. >> Right. Absolutely. What are some of the things that you're excited about as, you know, here was this forcing function a couple years ago, we're coming out of that now, but the world has changed. The future of work as you are so brilliantly articulated has changed permanently. What are you excited about in terms of Lumen and AWS going forward? As we saw a lot of announcements this morning, big focus on data, vision of AWS is really that flywheel with Adams Selipsky is really, really going. What are you excited about going forward into 2023? >> Yeah, I mean we've been working with AWS for so long and have been critical partners for so long that, you know, I think a lot of it is continuation of a lot of the great work we've been doing. We've been investing in our own capabilities around the AWS partner network. You know, we're actually in a fairly unique position, you know, and we like to think that we're that unique position around the future of work where between workers, workloads and the networks that connect them. Our fingers are on a lot of those pulse points, right? Our fingers are on at really at the nexus of a lot of those dynamics. And our investment with AWS even puts us even more so in a position to go where a lot of the workloads are being transformed, right? So that's why, you know, we've invested in being one of the few network operators that is in the AWS partner network at the advanced tier that have the managed services competency, that have the migration competency and the network competency. You can count on one hand the number of network operators that have actually invested at that level with AWS. And there's an even smaller number that is, you know, based here in the United States. So, you know, I think that investment with AWS, investment in their partner programs and then investment co-innovation with AWS on things like that MLB use case really puts us in a position to keep on doing these kinds of things within the AWS partner network. And that's one of the biggest things we could possibly be excited about. >> So what does the go to market look like? Is it Lumen goes in, brings in AWS, vice versa? Both? >> Yeah, so a lot of being a member of the AWS partner network you have a lot of flexibility. You know, we have a lot of customers that are, you know, directly working with AWS. We have a lot of customers that would basically look to us to deliver the solution and, you know, and buy it all as a complete turnkey capability. So we have customers that do both. We have customers that, you know, just look to Lumen for the Lumen adjacent services and then pay, you know, pay a separate bill with AWS. So there's a lot of flexibility in the partner network in terms of what Lumen can deliver as a service, Lumen can deliver as a complete solution and then what parts of its with AWS and their platform factors into on an on-demand usage basis. >> And that would all be determined I imagine by what the customer really needs in their environment? >> Yeah, and sort of their own cloud strategy. There's a lot of customers who are all in on AWS and are really trying to driving and innovating and using some of the higher level services inside the AWS platform. And then there are customers who kind of looked at AWS as one of a few cloud platforms that they want to work with. The Lumen network is compatible and connected to all of them and our services teams are, you know, have the ability to go and let customers sort of take on whatever cloud posture they need. But if they are all in on AWS, there's, you know. Not many networks better to be on than Lumen in order to enable that. >> With that said, last question for you is if you had a bumper sticker or a billboard. Lumen's rebranded since we last saw you. What would that tagline or that phrase of impact be on that bumper sticker? >> Yeah, I'd get in a lot of trouble with our marketing team if I didn't give the actual bumper sticker for the company. But we really think of ourselves as the platform for amazing things. The fourth industrial revolution, everything going on in terms of the future of work, in terms of the future of industrial innovation, in terms of all the data that's being gathered. You know, Adam in the keynote this morning really went into a lot of detail on, you know, the depth of data and the mystery of data and how to harness it all and wrangle it all. It requires a lot of networking and a lot of connectivity. You know, for us to acquire, analyze and act on all that data and Lumen's platform for amazing things really helps forge that path forward to that fourth industrial revolution along with great partners like AWS. >> Outstanding. David, it's been such a pleasure having you back on The Cube. We'll get you fitted for that five timers club jacket. >> It sounds good. (Lisa laughs) >> I'll be back. >> Thanks so much for your insights and your time and well done with what you guys are doing at Lumen and AWS. >> Thanks Lisa. >> For David Shacochis, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching The Cube hopefully all day. This is our first full day of coverage at AWS re:Invent '22. Stick around. We'll be back tomorrow, and we know we're going to see you then. Have a great night. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone. It's the CUBE's live coverage from Monaco for the Monaco Crypto Summit. I'm John Furrier, host of the CUBE. We're getting all the action here as the world goes decentralization as assets from the physical world connect with virtual to hybrid steady state. But Mattia Baldassarre's here, founder and CEO of Epico Play. Welcome to the CUBE! >> Thank you, John >> So I love to have you on. I love the Italian accent. Get a little European going here. We're from Silicon valley, where you're in Italy. Great to have you on. So Epico Play, what is it? >> So Epico Play is an innovative startup with the aim to digitalize the sport industry, to support clubs, federation leagues, to move into the digital era. Right? So we build up a technology. It is, actually two heads. One is a kind of white label technology for, you know, small, bigger club and then a B2C platform api-play.com where you actually can open up your own engaging channel straight away and allow clubs to have a digital infrastructure, to engage directly with their community, to monetize it and to make together some let's say two way engagement experience. Because we are used today, to just, you know a communication usually by this brand that has one way. So I tell you something, here is something, you know we create something together between the brand that is a club and the community itself. So it's kind of our ability to lump these experiences. >> Yeah. So I saw something on YouTube a day and a half ago. Roma soccer team introduced a new player and the fans were going crazy. They had a little light show. He comes out with the Big Digital Bits logo on this jersey. I forgot who the player was. You know, it was a young player. >> Dybala. Paulo Dybala. >> Yes. And the fans packed the place. And I know he's got the sponsorship with Digital Bits. So Digital Bits is sponsoring that club, but then the underlying technology. Are you over the top? Are you building apps on top of digital bits? >> Yes. I mean, that's also one of the, you know touching point of our partnership. Digital Bits today we announce our partnership with them, with Digital Bits Foundation. They're going to become, you know, our blockchain partner. They will support us on offering the token service to clubs. And for sure, we are going to, we are aiming to create our own token for Epico Play Platform which will always be the substances of the Digital Bits blockchain. And a second step will be for sure optimizing the relationship of Digital Bits, you know, also around the world. >> Yeah. >> But on ourself already has, you know a big pipeline of clubs onboarding. And I was telling before in the in the Summit is not just, we don't want just the top clubs. Right? That's easy. They have money. We want to help, you know, smaller club to go into this new era. Otherwise they're going to lose a lot of audience. They're going to lose a lot of revenue. >> It's interesting Mattia. I was telling earlier guests we had on about the meta version, sports. Sports clubs have been savvy around data for a decade, over a decade, all the big clubs that have TV contracts, certainly. They know how to manage, use technology to manage the team. They have technology to manage the stadiums and they have technology to manage the fan experience which was normally ticketing and, you know, I got a beer, I go to my seat, get stuff delivered, get a shirt, you know spot pricing, being smart. >> Sure. >> So with data. So, okay. That's good. That's a nice foundation. Now with the digital side of things and NFTs you've got assets and you've got a whole other level of interaction on the assets, the player, the brand the fan who can be a player and a fan. And so like now the multiple dimensions of new use cases. >> Completely. It is I believe it is, is like the game A New Hero, you know? So the touching point are much more our, let's say the Gen-Z, you know, the teenager, like they need more, much more input during the week. You know, for our, for my generation going to the stadium was the most exciting thing. So we were waiting for Sunday to go to the stadium, right? Now, the kids, they have so much information that if you don't engage them through this kind of fun engagement during the week, they will play PlayStation, you know or play whatever gaming on Sunday instead of watching the live match. >> But so to get that example let's stay with that for a second. You use your personal experience. Because I felt the same way for sports. If they could reach you during the week you'd be engaging with them. >> Exactly. You collect more data. >> You were ready. >> Exactly, you collect more data and mostly you have a higher quality of the data itself because you see how they behave. You see what they like, not just on the offline pitch. Right? But you can track everything here. So it's a, I think the big step that we bringing also into, into sports >> You know, I did a talk over 15 years ago at MIT and I said, web one was about information. Web two is about connections. And web three is about relationships. Okay, not just who you, you know connected to with devices, relationships. And guess what? Community, NFTs, self-expression, engagement, and the engagement patterns are changing as well. You're talking about things that aren't around right now. >> Yeah, exactly. >> This is new, new benefits. >> It's a new benefit, completely >> New benefits of everybody >> Completely for everybody. And especially, you know, actions that clubs need to do if they want to evolve, you know, that's I think really crucial for them. >> Great. You're building on Digital Bits. Where are you with the company? Talk about the origination story. How did it get started? Did you wake up one day and the apple fell on your head and you said, well, what happened? What's going on? >> So the story is this one, I worked in media, into sport media industry with a big group in London for a long time. And then I was also the CEO of a sport, OTT broadcaster. It is international, but I was taking care of Italy. While I was getting along with clubs, federation leagues, I said, there is a missing here. Right? They still not consider this as a main aspect. They always scared of investment or investing money in this. Right? So that's why we say, okay, you know what when I quit my job, we say, okay, I want, I'm going to... >> You just quit your job. Say I'm going to quit. >> Okay, no, I finished the season. Then I say, okay, done. Now I'm, I'm already thinking about what's going on. And then I open Epico Play. We also, with these mission say, okay there is an opportunity. There is a need in the market. And again, John, I'm not talking about just the top three teams of each league. I'm talking about all the teams. >> All the teams. >> All the teams, professional clubs, being basketball and volleyball. You know, all the sports need these changes. >> Yeah, some are bigger than others, but it's the power law. They all have communities. >> But if you aggregate all the small and medium teams, you know, right, You reach 1.5 billion fans. Right. So huge amount of data. And again, with our technology, we are able to give this environment without an investment from the club. So they are more open. They feel more like comfortable. And we are going to make money together with that. >> And they contribute the assets. So they're partner. >> Yeah. We are completely partner. So we build ecosystem, we then, for them and we make money together. >> It's a joint venture kind of, not formally but it's a win-win. >> It's a win. >> Not a lot of money out of pocket. They put a little bit probably to integrate in, but not big numbers. >> Not a lot of impact on the cash flow because in their mind is still for sure. The pitch, not the field is the most important thing. >> Yes. >> So that's why, okay, then we will help them. Okay. Don't worry. >> It's all upside for them. Do they have a rev share on things too? >> Yes. Exactly. >> So they do a business deal on their side? >> Yes >> So they're happy. They have the option for the future and... >> We build up everything for the future. Then we keep starting and keep monetizing together. So into different ways. >> So can you get some good tickets when the CUBE is in town? >> Whenever you want John. (laughs) >> Of course. What's next for you? Take us through your fundraising. You're building your team. Take a minute to put a plug in for your company. >> We actually, at the end, like seen around 1.2 million. Between, you know, an investment group that we're working with. This other venue, you know, one big TECHO company and some angel, strategic angel investor. Now we are also closing another bridge round to go then in 2023 to make a big round, you know, and scale internationally. So already, now we are approaching five to seven countries new countries, especially, you know, also going to South America where there is a massive adoption of this kind of opportunity, especially in terms of data. Then straight after we're going to, you know, make this fundraising and expand our business. Be really aggressive. As I told you before on the fact that, okay you know what we do the investment. Just let's build us your ecosystem together. >> Yes. >> And then we see, you know can be a different element between eventually other competitors will come out after. >> Okay. Great venture. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for coming on the CUBE. We'll see you at the yacht club later today. >> Thank you so much. >> The big gala event. Stay right there. We're wrapping it up here. I'm John for you here live in Monaco with the CUBE, Monaco Crypto Summit. All the next generation, new wave of businesses being refactored with new technologies, bring in value. That's what decentralization is, web three all coming together. Of course the Cube's covering it like a blanket. I'm John Furrier. We'll be back in more coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

>>Hello, everybody. Welcome to Von 2022, the live version. Yes, we're finally back live. Last time we did Von was 2019 live. Of course we did two subsequent years, uh, virtual. My name is Dave Valante and we've got two days of wall to wall coverage of VEON. As usual Veeam has brought together a number of customers, but it's really doing something different this year. Like many, uh, companies that you see, they have a big hybrid event. It's close to 40,000 people online and that's sort of driving the actual program where the content is actually different for the, the, the virtual viewers versus the onsite onsite. There's the, the V I P event going on, they got the keynotes. VM is a company who's a ancy occurred during the, the VMware rise. They brought in a new way of doing data protection. They didn't use agents. They, they protected at the hypervisor level. >>That changed the way that people did things. They're now doing it again in cloud, in SAS, in containers and ransomware. And so we're gonna dig into that. My cohost is Dave Nicholson this week, and we've got a special guest Zs Carava who is the principal at ZK research. He's an extraordinary analyst Zs. Great to see you, David. Thanks for coming out. Absolutely good to see you Beon. Great to be here. Yeah, we've done. Von act, live things have changed so dramatically. Uh, I mean the focus ransomware, it's now a whole new Tam, uh, the adjacency to security data protection. It's just a Zs. It's a whole new ballgame, isn't it? >>Well, it is. And, and in fact, um, during the keynote, they, they mentioned that they've, they're now tied at number one in, for, you know, back of a recovery, which is, I think it's safe to say Veeam. Does that really well? >>I think from a that's tied with Dell. Yes. Right. They didn't, I don't think they met Dell as >>Keto. And, uh, but I, you know, they've been rising Dell, EMC's been falling. And so I think >>It's somebody said 10 points that Dell lost and sharing the I data. >>It's not a big surprise. I mean, they haven't really invested a whole lot, >>I think anyway, >>Anyways, but I think from a Veeam perspective, the question is now that they've kind of hit that number one spot or close to it, what do they do next? This company, they mentioned, I was talking the CTO yesterday. You mentioned they're holding X bite of customer data. That is a lot of data. Right. And so they, they do back recovery really well. They do it arguably better than anybody. And so how do they take that data and then move into other adjacent markets to go create, not just a back recovery company, but a true data management platform company that has relevancy in cyber and analytics and artificial intelligence and data warehousing. Right? All those other areas I think are, are really open territory for this company right now. >>You know, Dave, you were a CTO at, at EMC when you, when you saw a lot of the acquisitions that the company made, uh, you, you know, they really never had a singular focus on data protection. They had a big data protection business, but that's the differentiator with Veeam. That's all it does. And you see that shine through from a, from a CTO's perspective. How do you see this market changing, evolving? And what's your sense as to how Vema is doing here? >>I think a lot of it's being driven by kind of, uh, unfortunately evil genius, uh, out in the market space. Yeah. I know we're gonna be hearing a lot about ransomware, uh, a lot about some concepts that we didn't really talk about outside of maybe the defense industry, air gaping, logical air gaping, um, Zs, you mentioned, you know, this, this, this question of what do you do when you have so many petabytes of data under management exabytes now exabytes, I'm sorry. Yeah, I see there I'm I'm already falling behind. One thing you could do is you could encrypt it all and then ask for Bitcoin in exchange for access to that data. >>Yes. That is what happens a >>Lot of them. So we're, we're getting, we're getting so much of the evil genius stuff headed our way. You start, you start thinking in those ways, but yet to, to your point, uh, dedicated backup products, don't address the scale and scope and variety of threats, not just from operational, uh, uh, you know, mishaps, uh, but now from so many bad actors coming in from the outside, it it's a whole new world. >>See us as analysts. We get inundated with ransomware solutions. Everybody's talking about it across the spectrum. The thing that interested me about what's happening here at VEON is they're, they're sort of trotting out this study that they do Veeam does some serious research, you know, thousands of customers that got hit by ransomware that they dug into. And then a, a larger study of all companies, many of whom didn't realize or said they hadn't been hit by ransomware, but they're really trying to inject thought leadership into the equation. You saw some of that in the analyst session this morning, it's now public. Uh, so we could talk about it. What were your thoughts on that data? >>Yeah, that was, uh, really fascinating data cuz it shows the ransomware industry, the response to it is largely reactive, right? We wait to get breach. We wait to, to uh, to get held at ransom I suppose. And then we, a lot of companies paid out. In fact, I thought there's one hospital in Florida, they're buying lots and lots of Bitcoin simply to pay out ransomware attacks. They didn't even really argue with them. They just pay it out. And I think Veeam's trying to change that mentality a little bit. You know, if you have the right strategy in place to be more preventative, you can do that. You can protect your data and then restore it right when you want to. So you don't have to be in that big bucket of companies that frankly pay and actually don't get their data back. Right. >>And like a third, I think roughly >>It's shocking amount of companies that get hit by that. And for a lot of companies, that's the end of their business. >>You know, a lot of the recovery process is manual is again a technologist. You understand that that's not the ideal way to go. In fact, it's probably a, a way to fail. >>Well, recovery's always the problem when I was in corporate, it used to joke that we were the best at backup, terrible at recovery. Well, you know, that's not atypical. >>My Fred Fred Moore, who was the vice president of strategy at a company called storage tech storage technology, corpor of storage tech. He had a great, uh, saying, he said, backup is one thing. Recovery is everything. And he started, he said that 30 years ago, but, but orchestration and automating that orchestration is, is really vital. We saw in the study, a lot of organizations are using scripts and scripts are fragile here they break. Right? >>Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, unfortunately the idea of the red run book on the shelf is still with us. Uh, uh, you know, scripting does not equal automation necessarily in every case, there's still gonna be a lot of manual steps in the process. Um, but you know, what I hope we get to talk about during the next couple of days is, you know, some of the factors that go into this, we've got day zero exploits that have already been uncovered that are stockpiled, uh, and tucked away. And it's inevitable that they're gonna hit. Yeah. So whether it's a manual recovery process or some level of automation, um, if you don't have something that is air gapped and cut off from the rest of the world in a physical or logical way, you can't guarantee >>That the, the problem with manual processes and scripting is even if you can set it up today, the environment changes so fast, right? With shadow it and business units buying their own services and users storing things and you know, wherever, um, you, you can't keep up with scripts in manual. Automation must be the way and I've been, and I don't care what part of it. You work in, whether it's this area in networking, communications, whatever automation must be the way I think prior to the pandemic, I saw a lot of resistance from it pros in the area of mission. Since the pandemic, I've seen a lot of warming up to it because I think it pros, I just realized they can't do their job without it. So, so you >>Don't, you don't think that edge devices, uh, lend themselves to manual >>Recovery, no process. In fact, I think that's one of the things they didn't talk about. What's that is, is edge. Edge is gonna be huge. More, every retailer, I talk to oil and gas, company's been using it for a long time. I've, you know, manufacturing organizations are looking at edge as a way to put more data in more places to improve experiences. Cuz you're moving the data closer, but we're creating a world where the fragmentation of data, you think it's bad now just wait a couple of years until the edge is a little more, you know, uh, to life here. And I think you ain't see nothing yet. This is this world of data. Everywhere is truly becoming that. And the thing with edge is there's no one definition, edge, you got IOT edge cellular edge, campus edge, right? Um, you know, you look at hotels, they have their own edge. I talked to major league baseball, right? They have every, stadium's got its own edge server in it. So we're moving into a world. We're putting more data in more places it's more fragmented than ever. And we need better ways of managing Of securing that data. But then also being able to recover for when >>Things happen. I was having that Danny Allen, he used the term that we coined called super cloud. He used that in the analyst meeting today. And, and that's a metaphor for this new layer of cloud. That's developing to your point, whether it's on-prem in a hybrid across clouds, not just running on the cloud, but actually abstracting away the complexity of the underlying primitives and APIs. And then eventually to your point, going out to the edge, I don't know if anyone who has an aggressive edge strategy Veeam to its credit, you know, has gone well beyond just virtualization and gone to bare metal into cloud. They were the containers. There was first at SAS. They acquired Caston who was a partner of theirs and they tried to acquire them earlier, but there was some government things and you know, that whole thing that got cleaned up and now they've, they own Caston. And I think the edge is next. I mean, it's gotta be, there's gonna be so much data at the edge. I guess the question is where is it today? How much of that is actually persisted? How much goes back to the cloud? I don't think people really have a good answer for that yet. >>No. In fact, a lot of edge services will be very ephemeral in nature. So it's not like with cloud where we'll take data and we'll store it there forever with the edge, we're gonna take data, we'll store it there for the time, point in time we need it. But I think one of the interesting things about Veeam is because they're decoupled from the airline hardware, they can run virtual machines and containers, porting Veeam to whatever platform you have next actually isn't all that difficult. Right? And so then if you need to be able to go back to a certain point in time, they can do that instantly. It's, it's a fascinating way to do backup. Are >>You you' point about it? I mean, you remember the signs up and down, you know, near the EMC facility, right outside of Southborough no hardware agenda that that was Jeremy Burton when he was running Verto of course they've got a little hardware agenda. So, but Veeam doesn't Veeam is, you know, they they're friendly with all the hardware players of pure play software, couple other stats on them. So they're a billion dollar company. They've now started to talk about their ARR growth. They grew, uh, 27% last year in, in, in annual recurring revenue, uh, 25%, uh, in the most recent quarter. And so they're in, in the vast majority of their business is subscription. I think they said, uh, 73% is now subscription based. So they really trans transitioned that business. The other thing about vem is they they've come up with a licensing model that's very friendly. >>Um, and they sort of removed that friction early on in the process. I remember talking to TIR about this. He said, we are gonna incent our partners and make it transparent to them, whether it's, you know, that when we shift from, you know, the, the, the, the crack of, of perpetual license to a subscription model, we're gonna make that transparent to partners. We'll take care of that. Essentially. They funded that transition. So that's worked very well. So they do stand out, I think from some of the larger companies at these big portfolios, although the big portfolio companies, you know, they get board level contacts and they can elbow their ways in your thoughts on that sort of selling dynamic. >>So navigating that transition to a subscription model is always fraught with danger. Everybody wants you to be there, but they want you to be there now. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, they don't like the transition that happens over 1824 months to get there. Um, >>As a private company, they're somewhat shielded from what they would've been if they were appli. Sure, >>Exactly. But, but that, but that bodes well from a, from a, a Veeam perspective. Um, the other interesting thing is that they sit where customers sit today in the real world, a hybrid world, not everything is in the cloud or a single cloud, uh, still a lot of on-prem things to take care of. And, >>And there will be for >>A long time exactly. Back to this idea. Yeah. There's a very long tail on that. So it's, it's, it's well enough to have a niche product that addresses a certain segment of the market, but to be able to go in and say all data everywhere, it doesn't matter where it lives. We have you covered. Um, that's a powerful message. And we were talking earlier. I think they, they stand a really good shot at taking market share, you know, on an ongoing basis. >>Yeah. The interesting thing about this market, Dave is they're, you know, although, you know, they're tied to number one with Dell now, they're, it's 12%, right? This reminds me of the security industry five, six years ago, where it's so fragmented. There's so many vendors, no one really stood out right. Then what happened in security? It's a little company called Palo Alto networks came around, they created a platform story. They moved into adjacent markets like SDWAN, they did a lot of smart acquisitions and they took off. I think vem is at that similar point where they've now, you know, that 12% number they've got some capital. Now they could go do some acquisitions that they want do. There's lots of adjacent markets as they talk about this company could be the Palo Alto of the data management market, if you know, and based on good execution. But there's certainly the opportunities there with all the data that they're holding. >>That's a really interesting point. I wanna stay that in a second. So there's obviously, there's, there's backup, there's recovery, there's data protection, there's ransomware protection, there's SAS data protection. And now all of a sudden you're seeing even a company like Rubrik is kind of repositioning as a security play. Yeah. Which I'm not sure that's the right move for a company that's really been focused on, on backup to really dive into that fragmented market. But it's clearly an adjacency and we heard Anan the new CEO today in the analyst segment, you know, we asked him, what's your kinda legacy gonna look like? And he said, I want to, I want to, defragment this market he's looking at. Yeah. He wants 25 to 45% of the market, which I think is really ambitious. I love that goal now to your point, agree, he, he sure. But that doubles yeah. >>From today or more, and he gets there to your point, possibly through acquisitions, they've made some really interesting tuck-ins with Castin. They certainly bought an AWS, uh, cloud play years ago. But my, my so, uh, Veeam was purchased by, uh, private equity inside capital inside capital in January of 2020, just before COVID for 5 billion. And at the time, then COVID hit right after you were like uhoh. And then of course the market took off so great acquisition by insight. But I think an IPO is in their future and that's, uh, Zs when they can start picking up some of these adjacent markets through every day. >>And I think one of the challenges for them is now that the Holden XAB bited data, they need to be able to tell customers things they, the customer doesn't know. Right. And that's where a lot of the work they're doing in artificial intelligence machine learning comes into play. Right. And, and nobody does that better than AWS, right? AWS is always looking at your data and telling you things you don't know, which makes you buy more. And so I think from a Veeam perspective, they need to now take all this, this huge asset they have and, and find a way to monetize it. And that's by revealing these key insights to customers that the customers don't even know they have. And >>They've got that monitor monitoring layer. Um, it's if you called it, Danny, didn't like to use the term, but he called it an AI. It's really machine learning that monitors. And then I think makes recommendations. I want to dig into that a little bit with it. >>Well, you can see the platform story starting to build here. Right. And >>Here's a really good point. Yeah. Because they really have been historically a point product company. This notion of super cloud is really a platform play. >>Right. And if you look in the software industry, look across any, any segment of the software industry, those companies that were niche that became big became platforms, Salesforce, SAP, Oracle. Right. And, and they find a way to allow others to build on their platform. You know, companies, they think like a Citrix, they never did that. Yeah. And they kind of taped, you know, petered out at a certain level of growth and had to, you know, change. They're still changing their business model, in fact. But I think that's Veeam's at that inflection point, right. They either build a platform story, enable others to do more on their platform or they stagnate >>HP software is another good example. They never were able to get that platform. And we're not able bunch of spoke with it, a non used to work there. Why is it so important Dave, to have a platform over a product? >>Well, cynical, Dave says, uh, you have a platform because it attracts investment and it makes you look cooler than maybe you really are. Um, but, uh, but really for longevity, you have, you, you, you have to be a platform. So what's >>The difference. How do you know when you have platform versus it? APIs? Is it, yeah. Brett, is it ecosystem? >>Some of it is. Some of it is semantics. Look at when, when I'm worried about my critical assets, my data, um, I think of a platform, a portfolio of point solutions for backing up edge data stuff. That's in the cloud stuff that exists in SAS. I see that holistically. And I think guys, you're doing enough. This is good. Don't, don't dilute your efforts. Just keep focusing on making sure that you can back up my data wherever it lives and we'll both win together. So whenever I hear a platform, I get a little bit, a little bit sketchy, >>Well platform, beats products, doesn't >>It? Yeah. To me, it's a last word. You said ecosystem. Yes. When you think of the big platform players, everybody B in the customer, uh, experience space builds to build for Salesforce. First, if you're a small security vendor, you build for Palo Alto first, right? Right. If you're in the database, you build for Oracle first and when you're that de facto platform, you create an ecosystem around you that you no longer have to fund and build yourself. It just becomes self-fulfilling. And that drives a level of stickiness that can't be replicated through product. >>Well, look at the ecosystem that, that these guys are forming. I mean, it's clear. Yeah. So are they becoming in your view >>Of platform? I think they are becoming a platform and I think that's one of the reasons they brought on and in, I think he's got some good experience doing that. You could argue that ring kind of became that. Right. The, when, you know, when he was ring central. >>Yeah. >>Yeah. And, uh, so I think some, some of his experiences and then moving into adjacencies, I think is really the reason they brought him in to lead this company to the next level. >>Excellent guys, thanks so much for setting up VEON 20, 22, 2 days of coverage on the cube. We're here at the area. It's a, it's a great venue. I >>Love the area. >>Yeah. It's nice. It's a nice intimate spot. A lot of customers here. Of course, there's gonna be a big Veeam party. They're famous for their parties, but, uh, we'll, we'll be here to cover it and, uh, keep it right there. We'll be back with the next segment. You're watching the cube VEON 20, 22 from Las Vegas.

>>Mm. >>Okay. Hello, and welcome to the Cubes Coverage of the International Women in Tech Showcase featuring National Women's Day. I'm John for a host of the Cube. We have a great guest here of any theory a PJ head of aerospace and satellite for A W S A P J s Asia Pacific in Japan. Great to have you on many thanks for joining us. Talk about Space and International Women's Day. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks, John. It's such a pleasure to be here with you. >>So obviously, aerospace space satellite is an area that's growing. It's changing. AWS has made a lot of strides closure, and I had a conversation last year about this. Remember when Andy Jassy told me about this initiative to 2.5 years or so ago? It was like, Wow, that makes a lot of sense Ground station, etcetera. So it just makes a lot of sense, a lot of heavy lifting, as they say in the satellite aerospace business. So you're leading the charge over there in a p J. And you're leading women in space and beyond. Tell us what's the Storey? How did you get there? What's going on. >>Thanks, John. Uh, yes. So I need the Asia Pacific business for Clint, um, as part of Amazon Web services, you know, that we have in industry business vertical that's dedicated to looking after our space and space customers. Uh, my journey began really? Three or four years ago when I started with a W s. I was based out of Australia. Uh, and Australia had a space agency that was being literally being born. Um, and I had the great privilege of meeting the country's chief scientist. At that point. That was Dr Alan Finkel. Uh, and we're having a conversation. It was really actually an education conference. And it was focused on youth and inspiring the next generation of students. Uh, and we hit upon space. Um, and we had this conversation, and at that stage, we didn't have a dedicated industry business vertical at A W s well supported space customers as much as we did many other customers in the sector, innovative customers. And after the conversation with Dr Finkel, um, he offered to introduce me, uh, to Megan Clark, who was back back then the first CEO of the Australian Space Agency. So that's literally how my journey into space started. We had a conversation. We worked out how we could possibly support the Australian Space Agency's remit and roadmap as they started growing the industry. Uh, and then a whole industry whole vertical was set up, clinic came on board. I have now a global team of experts around me. Um, you know, they've pretty much got experience from everything creating building a satellite, launching a satellite, working out how to down link process all those amazing imagery that we see because, you know, um, contrary to what a lot of people think, Uh, space is not just technology for a galaxy far, far away. It is very much tackling complex issues on earth. Um, and transforming lives with information. Um, you know, arranges for everything from wildfire detection to saving lives. Um, smart, smart agriculture for for farmers. So the time of different things that we're doing, Um, and as part of the Asia Pacific sector, uh, my task here is really just to grow the ecosystem. Women are an important part of that. We've got some stellar women out here in region, both within the AWS team, but also in our customer and partner sectors. So it's a really interesting space to be. There's a lot of challenges. There's a lot of opportunities and there's an incredible amount of growth so specific, exciting space to be >>Well, I gotta say I'm super inspired by that. One of the things that we've been talking about the Cuban I was talking to my co host for many, many years has been the democratisation of digital transformation. Cloud computing and cloud scale has democratised and change and level the playing field for many. And now space, which was it's a very complex area is being I want kind of democratised. It's easier to get access. You can launch a satellite for very low cost compared to what it was before getting access to some of the technology and with open source and with software, you now have more space computing things going on that's not out of reach. So for the people watching, share your thoughts on on that dynamic and also how people can get involved because there are real world problems to solve that can be solved now. That might have been out of reach, but now it's cloud. Can you share your thoughts. >>That's right. So you're right, John. Satellites orbiting There's more and more satellites being launched every day. The sensors are becoming more sophisticated. So we're collecting huge amounts of data. Um, one of our customers to cut lab tell us that we're collecting today three million square kilometres a day. That's gonna increase to about three billion over the next five years. So we're already reaching a point where it's impossible to store, analyse and make sense of such massive amounts of data without cloud computing. So we have services which play a very critical role. You know, technologies like artificial intelligence machine learning. Help us help these customers build up products and solutions, which then allows us to generate intelligence that's serving a lot of other sectors. So it could be agriculture. It could be disaster response and recovery. Um, it could be military intelligence. I'll give you an example of something that's very relevant, and that's happening in the last couple of weeks. So we have some amazing customers. We have Max our technologies. They use a W S to store their 100 petabytes imagery library, and they have daily collection, so they're using our ground station to gather insight about a lot of changing conditions on Earth. Usually Earth observation. That's, you know, tracking water pollution, water levels of air pollution. But they're also just tracking, um, intelligence of things like military build up in certain areas. Capella space is another one of our customers who do that. So over the last couple of weeks, maybe a couple of months, uh, we've been watching, uh, images that have been collected by these commercial satellites, and they've been chronicling the build up, for instance, of Russian forces on Ukraine's borders and the ongoing invasion. They're providing intelligence that was previously only available from government sources. So when you talk about the democratisation of space, high resolution satellite images are becoming more and more ridiculous. Um, I saw the other day there was, uh, Anderson Cooper, CNN and then behind him, a screenshot from Capella, which is satellite imagery, which is very visible, high resolution transparency, which gives, um, respected journalists and media organisations regular contact with intelligence, direct intelligence which can help support media storytelling and help with the general public understanding of the crisis like what's happening in Ukraine. And >>I think on that point is, people can relate to it. And if you think about other things with computer vision, technology is getting so much stronger. Also, there's also metadata involved. So one of the things that's coming out of this Ukraine situation not only is tracking movements with the satellites in real time, but also misinformation and disinformation. Um, that's another big area because you can, uh, it's not just the pictures, it's what they mean. So it's well beyond just satellite >>well, beyond just satellite. Yeah, and you know, not to focus on just a crisis that's happening at the moment. There's 100 other use cases which were helping with customers around the globe. I want to give you a couple of other examples because I really want people to be inspired by what we're doing with space technology. So right here in Singapore, I have a company called Hero Factory. Um, now they use AI based on Earth observation. They have an analytics platform that basically help authorities around the region make key decisions to drive sustainable practises. So change detection for shipping Singapore is, you know, it's lots of traffic. And so if there's oil spills, that can be detected and remedy from space. Um, crop productivity, fruit picking, um, even just crop cover around urban areas. You know, climate change is an increasing and another increasing, uh, challenges global challenge that we need to tackle and space space technology actually makes it possible 15 50% of what they call e CVS. Essential climate variables can only be measured from space. So we have companies like satellite through, uh, one of our UK customers who are measuring, um, uh, carbon emissions. And so the you know, the range of opportunities that are out there, like you said previously untouched. We've just opened up doors for all sorts of innovations to become possible. >>It totally is intoxicating. Some of the fun things you can discuss with not only the future but solving today's problems. So it's definitely next level kind of things happening with space and space talent. So this is where you start to get into the conversation like I know some people in these major technical instance here in the US as sophomore second year is getting job offers. So there's a There's a there's a space race for talent if you will, um and women talent in particular is there on the table to So how How can you share that discussion? Because inspiration is one thing. But then people want to know what to do to get in. So how do you, um how do you handle the recruiting and motivating and or working with organisations to just pipeline interest? Because space is one of the things you get addicted to. >>Yeah. So I'm a huge advocate for science, technology, engineering, math. We you know, we highlights them as a pathway into space into technology. And I truly believe the next generation of talent will contribute to the grand challenges of our time. Whether that climate change or sustainability, Um, it's gonna come from them. I think I think that now we at Amazon Web services. We have several programmes that we're working on to engage kids and especially girls to be equipped with the latest cloud skills. So one of the programmes that we're delivering this year across Singapore Australia uh, we're partnering with an organisation called the Institute for Space Science, Exploration and Technology and we're launching a programme called Mission Discovery. It's basically students get together with an astronaut, NASA researcher, technology experts and they get an opportunity to work with these amazing characters, too. Create and design their own project and then the winning project will be launched will be taken up to the International space station. So it's a combination of technology skills, problem solving, confidence building. It's a it's a whole range and that's you know, we that's for kids from 14 to about 18. But actually it, in fact, because the pipeline build is so important not just for Amazon Web services but for industry sector for the growth of the overall industry sector. Uh, there's several programmes that were involved in and they range from sophomore is like you said all the way to to high school college a number of different programmes. So in Singapore, specifically, we have something called cloud Ready with Amazon Web services. It's a very holistic clouds killing programme that's curated for students from primary school, high school fresh graduates and then even earlier careers. So we're really determined to work together closely and it the lines really well with the Singapore government's economic national agenda, um so that that's one way and and then we have a tonne of other programmes specifically designed for women. So last year we launched a programme called She Does It's a Free online training learning programme, and the idea is really to inspire professional women to consider a career in the technology industry and show them pathways, support them through that learning process, bring them on board, help drive a community spirit. And, you know, we have a lot of affinity groups within Amazon, whether that's women in tech or a lot of affinity groups catering for a very specific niches. And all of those we find, uh, really working well to encourage that pipeline development that you talk about and bring me people that I can work with to develop and build these amazing solutions. >>Well, you've got so much passion. And by the way, if you have, if you're interested in a track on women in space, would be happy to to support that on our site, send us storeys, we'll we'll get We'll get them documented so super important to get the voices out there. Um and we really believe in it. So we love that. I have to ask you as the head of a PJ for a W S uh aerospace and satellite. You've you've seen You've been on a bunch of missions in the space programmes of the technologies. Are you seeing how that's trajectory coming to today and now you mentioned new generation. What problems do you see that need to be solved for this next generation? What opportunities are out there that are new? Because you've got the lens of the past? You're managing a big part of this new growing emerging business for us. But you clearly see the future. And you know, the younger generation is going to solve these problems and take the opportunities. What? What are they? >>Yes, Sometimes I think we're leaving a lot, uh, to solve. And then other times, I think, Well, we started some of those conversations. We started those discussions and it's a combination of policy technology. We do a lot of business coaching, so it's not just it's not just about the technology. We do think about the broader picture. Um, technology is transferring. We know that technology is transforming economies. We know that the future is digital and that diverse backgrounds, perspective, skills and experiences, particularly those of women minority, the youth must be part of the design creation and the management of the future roadmaps. Um, in terms of how do I see this going? Well, it's been sort of we've had under representation of women and perhaps youth. We we just haven't taken that into consideration for for a long time now. Now that gap is slowly becoming. It's getting closer and closer to being closed. Overall, we're still underrepresented. But I take heart from the fact that if we look at an agency like the US Mohammed bin Rashid Space Centre, that's a relatively young space agency in your A. I think they've got about three or 400 people working for them at this point in time, and the average age of that cohort John, is 28. Some 40% of its engineers and scientists are women. Um, this year, NASA is looking to recruit more female astronauts. Um, they're looking to recruit more people with disabilities. So in terms of changing in terms of solving those problems, whatever those problems are, we started the I guess we started the right representation mix, so it doesn't matter. Bring it on, you know, whether it is climate change or this ongoing crisis, productive. Um, global crisis around the world is going to require a lot more than just a single shot answer. And I think having diversity and having that representation, we know that it makes a difference to innovation outputs. We know that it makes a difference to productivity, growth, profit. But it's also just the right thing to do for so long. We haven't got it right, and I think if we can get this right, we will be able to solve the majority of some of the biggest things that we're looking at today. >>And the diversity of problems in the diversity of talent are two different things. But they come together because you're right. It's not about technology. It's about all fields of study sociology. It could be political science. Obviously you mentioned from the situation we have now. It could be cybersecurity. Space is highly contested. We dated long chat about that on the Last Cube interview with AWS. There's all these new new problems and so problem solving skills. You don't need to have a pedigree from Ivy League school to get into space. This is a great opportunity for anyone who can solve problems because their new No one's seen them before. >>That's exactly right. And you know, every time we go out, we have sessions with students or we're at universities. We tell them, Raise your voices. Don't be afraid to use your voice. It doesn't matter what you're studying. If you think you have something of value to say, say it. You know, by pushing your own limits, you push other people's limits, and you may just introduce something that simply hasn't been part of before. So your voice is important, and we do a lot of lot of coaching encouraging, getting people just to >>talk. >>And that in itself is a great start. I think >>you're in a very complex sector, your senior leader at AWS Amazon Web services in a really fun, exciting area, aerospace and satellite. And for the young people watching out there or who may see this video, what advice would you have for the young people who are trying to navigate through the complexities of now? Third year covid. You know, seeing all the global changes, um, seeing that massive technology acceleration with digital transformation, digitisation it's here, digital world we're in. >>It could >>be confusing. It could be weird. And so how would you talk to that person and say, Hey, it's gonna be okay? And what advice would you give? >>It is absolutely going to be okay. Look, from what I know, the next general are far more fluent in digital than I am. I mean, they speak nerd. They were born speaking nerd, so I don't have any. I can't possibly tell them what to do as far as technology is concerned because they're so gung ho about it. But I would advise them to spend time with people, explore new perspectives, understand what the other is trying to do or achieve, and investing times in a time in new relationships, people with different backgrounds and experience, they almost always have something to teach you. I mean, I am constantly learning Space tech is, um it's so complicated. Um, I can't possibly learn everything I have to buy myself just by researching and studying. I am totally reliant on my community of experts to help me learn. So my advice to the next generation kids is always always in this time in relationships. And the second thing is, don't be disheartened, You know, Um this has happened for millennia. Yes, we go up, then we come down. But there's always hope. You know, there there is always that we shape the future that we want. So there's no failure. We just have to learn to be resilient. Um, yeah, it's all a learning experience. So stay positive and chin up, because we can. We can do it. >>That's awesome. You know, when you mentioned the Ukraine in the Russian situation, you know, one of the things they did they cut the Internet off and all telecommunications and Elon Musk launched a star linked and gives them access, sending them terminals again. Just another illustration. That space can help. Um, and these in any situation, whether it's conflict or peace and so Well, I have you here, I have to ask you, what is the most important? Uh uh, storeys that are being talked about or not being talked about are both that people should pay attention to. And they look at the future of what aerospace satellite these emerging technologies can do for the world. What's your How would you kind of what are the most important things to pay attention to that either known or maybe not being talked about. >>They have been talked about John, but I'd love to see more prominent. I'd love to see more conversations about stirring the amazing work that's being done in our research communities. The research communities, you know, they work in a vast area of areas and using satellite imagery, for instance, to look at climate change across the world is efforts that are going into understanding how we tackle such a global issue. But the commercialisation that comes from the research community that's pretty slow. And and the reason it's loads because one is academics, academics churning out research papers. The linkage back into industry and industry is very, um, I guess we're always looking for how fast can it be done? And what sort of marginal profit am I gonna make for it? So there's not a lot of patients there for research that has to mature, generate outputs that you get that have a meaningful value for both sides. So, um, supporting our research communities to output some of these essential pieces of research that can Dr Impact for society as a whole, Um, maybe for industry to partner even more, I mean, and we and we do that all the time. But even more focus even more. Focus on. And I'll give you a small example last last year and it culminated this earlier this month, we signed an agreement with the ministry of With the Space Office in Singapore. Uh, so it's an MOU between AWS and the Singapore government, and we are determined to help them aligned to their national agenda around space around building an ecosystem. How do we support their space builders? What can we do to create more training pathways? What credits can we give? How do we use open datasets to support Singaporeans issues? And that could be claimed? That could be kind of change. It could be, um, productivity. Farming could be a whole range of things, but there's a lot that's happening that is not highlighted because it's not sexy specific, right? It's not the Mars mission, and it's not the next lunar mission, But these things are just as important. They're just focused more on earth rather than out there. >>Yeah, and I just said everyone speaking nerd these days are born with it, the next generations here, A lot of use cases. A lot of exciting areas. You get the big headlines, you know, the space launches, but also a lot of great research. As you mentioned, that's, uh, that people are doing amazing work, and it's now available open source. Cloud computing. All this is bringing to bear great conversation. Great inspiration. Great chatting with you. Love your enthusiasm for for the opportunity. And thanks for sharing your storey. Appreciate it. >>It's a pleasure to be with you, John. Thank you for the opportunity. Okay. >>Thanks, Manny. The women in tech showcase here, the Cube is presenting International Women's Day celebration. I'm John Ferrier, host of the Cube. Thanks for watching. Mm mm.

(tubular bells chiming) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage, AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier your host of theCUBE. We're here, get all the action wall-to-wall coverage. The keynotes with the new CEO, Adam Leschi just happened. A lot of action wall-to-wall coverage for days, and we'd love cloud computing because it impacts business. We love all that, but when it impact sports, we love it even more because it can relate to it. You can see the two great guests here from the NHL Formula 1. We got David Lehanski the EVP of business development and innovation at the NHL, Rob Smedley, director of data systems at Formula 1. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me today in theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us. >> So obviously formula one we know is very data driven. Pun intended, NHL has a lot of action going on as well with innovation streaming, et cetera. Let's get into it. You're both Amazon customers, right? We'll start with you. Formula 1, big partnership with AWS. What's that about? how you guys look at this cloud as you guys go to the next level? Cause you're under a lot of pressure with the data, from the cars and standards and all that good stuff. What's up. >> What's going on? >> Well, I mean, you know, it started probably four or five years ago with the acquisition of Liberty media and formula 1, and there was a real drive towards data. There was a real drive towards, you know, unearthing all of the data that we've got, you know, formula 1, arguably probably generates the most data, this most sports data of any sport on the planet. You know, we have car telemetry data, timing data, metadata, image data, you know, we own all the video data, and the audio data of driver radio, tire data, weather data, you put all that together. You got to, you know, a real massive data. And it was just about trying to unearth that and, and engage the fans more. And that's where the partnership with AWS come from. >> And the competitiveness in formula one I know is really high. You got a lot of smart people on these teams looking for an edge. And I know it's like, it's a whole new world with data as things get exposed. So I got to ask you, what is your job? Are you there to like to corral the data that kind of set standards? What's your role? >> Well, my role is essentially, to use the data at central league level, if you want, for all the franchises, that's all 20 drivers, within the 10 teams to try to, you know, use that data in whatever way possible, whether it's the new car or whether it's the F1 insights powered by AWS to try to engage the fans more. You know, we've understood that data, is really important to tell the story of Formula 1. And it's really important to reach different demographics as well. The younger demographics, the young, the gen Zedders is, you know, those types of guys, it's really important to get to them, because you can condense and at one hour 45 race down to five minutes, right. Which is what they want. So this has been a really important step for us. And a really important part of that journey has been the enablement. >> And I can see the whole e-sports thing I could see after a race. Okay. Now the fans race amongst themselves, as the technology simulation gets better, only headroom there. So to speak. >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's what we're, you know, that's probably the next generation of what we want to do with the data is we want to make it much more interactive. We're already giving, you know, through the insights and through, you know, the way that, we're trying to tell stories with the different data assets we're already trying to do that, in a much more proactive way of telling the story. The next level of that. is completely immersive, is interactive. And that's what we call the 21st drivers. So there's 20, formula 1 drivers. Right. But, we want to build systems using the data and gamification where you can embed yourself and immerse yourself in that, in the races, the 21st driver and race against the other guys on a Sunday afternoon. >> Awesome. Dave, let's get to the NHL National Hockey League. You guys are doing a lot of good stuff. You're the EVP of innovation and what's going on over there. How do you see the cloud helping you guys innovate. what's on your agenda and what's your role? >> Wow. I don't know if we have enough time, but at the highest level, you know, we're trying to expand and enhance the way we produce and present our game to the world. You know, our sport, we have some similarities, but there's a lot of differences based on the uniqueness of the sport. Statistics, hadn't really been a big part of the National Hockey League in the way people consume the game. I always say, you know, goaltenders have two statistics that have been used to evaluate them. And they were the same ones that were used to evaluate them back in 1917. So almost again a hundred years where it hasn't really evolved that much, but we think there's so much there that can really enrich and transform the game. So we're trying to partner with AWS and the best technology companies in the world to figure out how we can start to capture that data and turn it into meaningful content and experiences that allow fans to go a little bit deeper and a little bit broader. >> Yeah, I can see the data being used for also seeing what the NFL is doing a lot with the safety. Hits are getting harder and faster in the NHL. I mean, the collisions, the equipment, everyone is going faster. That's a big safety issue too. Isn't it? >> There is a safety component too. And it, look, that is one of the unique things about our sports. Both of us are speed involved. The speed though, for us, it's not just on the ice, it's also the pace of play, right? So when you have a stoppage, it's typically 10 or 15 seconds long. So there's not a lot of time to integrate data, to tell stories, to build and graphics and visualizations. So the first phase for us was to build the tracking system that could capture the positional, the positions of the puck and the players throughout the course of every game. And that's generating a massive amount of new data. Now we're trying to add video to that data so we could start to use it to create entirely new experiences. >> What are you guys thinking about from a fan experience as you look at the analytics. Are they interested in more like the, where the puck is, how fast people are going, what are some of the analytics sharing? >> So it depends, Right? So from a fan standpoint, you know, avid fans really want to, they want to go deep and they want understand controlled zone entries and like, you know, things that are really inherent to, you know, the core factors for determining outcome. Casual fans, they like just on knowing speed, right? How fast is the puck moving? How fast are the players moving. Before we had the system, we weren't able to produce it. Before we had AWS, you won't be able to produce that in real time and overlay it onto a game. So we could go even deeper when it comes to players and coaches and media partners, but the ability to build a solution that works in real time to give them the data and the video that they can use to tell those stories is born from AWS. >> And that brings up a great point. I'd love to ask both of you, if you can answer this question about the fan expectations. One of the big trends coming out of this re-invent this year as cloud is creating more capabilities, but the users and the consumers have new expectations. They want it on mobile, they want the highlights, they want everything. They want the data, there are data junkies. They want everything, cause they're immersing, into the experience with multiple touchpoints. TV, app. Whatever. >> I think that's right. And I think that it's up to, you know, as David's just saying that the two sports here with a lot of similarities and you can see that we're both on the same journey and that's because it's been driven in the end by the consumers, it's been driven by our customers. And, I think that now we're on, you know, what I would call the data flywheel, where there's a lot of inertia and it's just getting stronger and stronger and stronger. And this was, if we go back say three, four years when we started the partnership with AWS and we started to get really deep into the data and understand, you know, what the objectives of this whole exercise were, we always knew that there'd be a point where it started to build a lot of momentum and have a lot of inertia and that's, what's happening now. There's a real thirst for it, right? And it's not just, you know, even the naysayers, you know, even the people that kind of looked at it and went, well, why are you filling my screen with data exactly the same as what Dave says, you know, since you know, the goaltender since 1917, you've used the same two stats to evaluate that particular player. In formula 1 it's been exactly the same. So we started to introduce stuff which had been the same state as core for 70 years. And they say, well, what's all this about. Now, those people can't live without that. Right? It's become, a key part of the broadcast. >> And it creates new products, like things like Netflix, who would've thought a series would be on Formula 1, a soap opera for formula 1 in behind the scenes, driving to survive has been quite an acceleration for fan base. I mean, techies in Silicon valley and all around the world have told us like, hey, you know what? That exposes the nerdiness of Formula 1. Kind of cool. So who would have thought, I mean, there's going to be shows on this whole other level. >> I think, another point to add it is about increasing your distribution points and getting your content out to as many people as possible through as many platforms as possible. But I think in addition to that, it's really about, Rob started to touch on this personalization and customization. What can you do within those platforms to give fans the ability to sort of create their own experience? Right? So data highlights, huge, huge, huge level of importance. >> I think community is going to be a big part of this too. As you start to see the data creates more interactions and more progression, if you will. Community, I'm a Bruins fan in California. There's not a lot of Bruins fans, mostly sharks fans, but I got to get online. Where am I? Where's my tribe. I want to hang, that's not just on Twitter. >> Yeah >> So there's a whole another level coming. How do you guys see community developing in your sports? >> I think the community is the biggest factor in all of this. Right? And it's kind of bringing together. It's a global sports community, first and foremost, but then you've got these pockets. So you've got NHL, NFL, you've got formula 1 and they're all gaining popularity, but it's all through really everybody being on this same journey. Everybody's on this same journey of involving tech in the sport of revolutionizing their particular sport. And it's building this global community. I mean, In formula 1, we've got a billion fans worldwide, but that's growing, it's growing every single year, but it's only growing because we're starting now to get to that younger demographic, formerly one could never get to the demographic, you know, formula 1 fans looked like us, but now it's starting to really improve our system. >> The virtualization of this hybrid world we're living in opens up the doors for more access. >> Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's the key point here. And again, they've touched on it. It's the personalization. It's using data and platforms and packages to personalize somebody's engagement with their particular sport. >> I got a couple of questions from the fan base, I knew you guys were coming on. I want to get to you , first, Rob, how has F1 been using Amazon and the cloud to develop the new 2022 race car? >> Well, I mean, it, I would say it's no exaggeration to say Amazon technology enabled, was the key enabler in as being able to design that 2022 car, you know, we designed it in a virtual environment called computational fluid dynamics. You know, the simulations, when we were first running design iterations, were taking something like 40 hours with when we started running it on the EC2, you know, spinning up 7,000 calls, something like that. We got that down to seven hours, manageable. We designed the whole new car. >> Awesome. On the NHL, the question here for you, is that okay, how is the young generation coming into the game? What's changed with the innovation that's impacting, how the games played and how the young guns are coming up? Is there any in technology enabling that? >> Sure. You know, so we're looking at the type of content that younger fans are gravitating to, obviously highlights and dance games, but we talked about it before the ability to see what they want to see with regard to that. So, you know, where we're trying to get to is where you could watch a game and ultimately decide whether or not you want to turn on a right rail of real-time statistics for your favorite player, for your favorite team, for a specific event, whether or not you want to turn on the ability to network with your friends across social platforms, whether or not you want to turn on the betting functionality, whether or not you want to turn on the game functionality. Right? So this is how the younger generation really wants to consume the data, like sort of, they want to see what they want to see, when and how they want to see it. So we're working on that. And then there's everything that goes beyond that. The world of NFTs and VR and AR and alternate forms of content distribution, none of that would be capable or available if not for the ability to capture process and distribute data and video in an aggregate in real time. >> You know, I really think we're onto something so new here. And if you guys are really kind of illustrating the whole point of how being in person, the old model of physical, I don't have to go into arena to watch hockey or go watch formula 1, and hopefully it's on TV. Maybe it's got coverage here and there, but now with hybrid, you can integrate the experiences from the physical in-person where the asset is. >> Absolutely. >> And to virtual and just open up completely new hybrid use cases. I mean, this is brand new. There's no standards. >> Not, exactly. And that's something that we're really starting to look at, which is the event of the future. You know? So how would you bring, how do you mismatch? How would you bring that whole data experience and that whole broadcast experience to the actual event, the live event, and how would you bring the live event to somebody's front room? It's the hybrid model, right? And this is definitely next generation of how we're using the data. We're working with AWS. We're calling it event of the future. It's really, really exciting. I mean, you can imagine going there, to a formula 1 race, you're sat in the stands. You're no longer, you know, watching a car pass every few seconds and wondering what's going on. You've now got AR, VR that you can kind of put up and lay-up across what's going on the track. >> Well, a lot of people would love to get you guys' reaction to this comment online. Cause this is big, I see a lot of naysayers out there because they're so locked into the business model of the physical location. There's a lot of investment in events like this, wants me to buy tickets and show up. So they call it a one-way door here in the industry, they don't want to go through that one way door, but I'm saying that door has already been passed. It's like you're in this hybrid world is here. If you don't get out in front of it, you're going to be toast. So the question is, how do you guys think about this when you talk about the business model of experience? Cause you have to get in there and it's not super great right now on virtual. It could be better. It has to get better. So it's a balance. How do you guys talk about that in your respective fields to educate the potential? I won't say naysayers, but yeah. >> Yeah no, no, no. So we believe it wholeheartedly. You know, when you think about the inner arena experience, there's a lot of infrastructure that needs to be in place to be able to deliver those types of experiences to fans, while they're in the building, we wholeheartedly believe that the people who are paying the most to see our games should get the best possible experience. So there should be no replay, they don't get, there should be no game that they can't access, no application that they couldn't have on their phone, but you need to have, you know, fairly advanced wireless in the arena infrastructures in place. You need to have a lot of cloud infrastructure and services there. So, you know, that's why we're leveraging Kinesis and SageMaker and AWS elemental services to get all of it condensed, operating in the cloud and distributed. So if you're a fan at a game, they're 18,000 other people, like you trying to access a mobile phone to place a bet on a real-time event that just happened, you can actually do it, but a lot needs to go into that. >> Yeah, that's really good insight because what you're pointing out is is that the physical location is the first party asset. That's the key. You build on that, invest in that and then feed it out into the next world and then figure that out. Do you agree with that. >> Absolutely. 100 percent correct. Well, 100 percent agree with everything that David just said. And we've got probably, you know, an even bigger challenge because we've got these 20 sites where we lift and shift 20, 23 races, you know, all round the world where we lift and shift every couple of weeks, and they're not arenas either. They're, you know, these are huge sites. These are you know, five, six kilometer by five, six kilometer square sites. So trying to do everything that David just said in that space, we can open it. >> Yeah, we just turn the lights off, it's over, he's got to pack it all up. >> The private 5G is going to totally help. You can run drones and have full blanket coverage over the location. That's good. That's good stuff. Final question for you guys on data, because I think this is something that we've been kind of talking about on theCUBE over the past year, we see open source software has become a huge success. Do you guys see opening up the data to your fan base and seeing e-sports races in formula 1, is just going crazy. Everyone loves it. It's not there yet but the equipment having your own car in your living room, but it's close, pretty close, it's there. Opening up the data, how do you see that potential? Because there are people who want to maybe code on top of it. How do you guys view that? >> Well, I think it, has to, I mean, Dave, again, touched on this earlier when he talked about, you know, the difference between the casual and the avid. The avid, you'll never, ever satisfy the average thirst for data, right. They want to do what I did and sit on a pit wall and manage a grand Prix team. And that's great, you know, it shouldn't just be for a privilege, you know, 10, 20 people in the world to do that. We should be able to give everybody that experience because we have the technology and the ability and the know how to be able to do that. And that's where, you know, again, partnership with AWS, where we're talking about something called the virtual pit wall. So, you know, the pit stands where it's kind of like the mission control. We want to be able to bring that to the average. And it's just getting deeper and deeper layers where you can set up your bespoke environment. You can set it up just as if you were a race engineer or a team strategist, one of those guys, and you can just get deeper and deeper. And then you start to lay over that. You start to build your own models. We bring in simulation into that whole area. And, you know, it's exactly the same as what you have in the teams. You just go deeper and deeper and deeper. >> What's it like to be on the pit wall there, managing teams. what's it. (men laughing) >> Hmm scary sometimes >> Nerve wrecking. >> Nerve-wracking, I mean, I talked about, you know, the gen Zedders who want the, you know, a two hour race to pass in five minutes, it passes in five minutes. Cause there's so much going on. You know, it's kind of like being the coach or the, you know, the football manager, you know, you're under a lot of pressure. You've got to make the right decisions. You've got to, you know, you've got to make decisions in split seconds. Everybody's an expert 10 seconds after the decision has been made. It's that type of thing, but it's great fun, you know. >> I can see virtual Formula 1 being a hot total hit because with all the data and now autonomous vehicles, you can almost have a collective kind of team approach, like swapping out AI in the cars in real time from the virtual pit. >> Yeah. And again, you know, I'm just going to name check deep racer because you know, AWS deep racer, you know, we formula 1, and AWS deep racer. We did an activation about a year back in the first lockdown, in the first COVID lockdown. So we took a couple of formula 1 drivers, Daniel Ricardo being one of them. And then we built out this deep racer platform and we're trying to look at how we can bring that more, you know, more together. So you've got this virtual, sorry, this AI car, this autonomous car, and you've got formula 1. And how do we merge those two worlds together? And again, that's just trying to immerse people more in the experience. >> Alright, final question. What's the coolest thing you got going on in each of your respective innovation fields with AWS? What would you highlight your favorite innovation or coolest thing you're doing? >> Well, I can't tell you about the coolest, right. That's for sure. Look, I just think what we're doing with AWS with regard to AIML around data and statistics analytics, based on what I said earlier, the evolution of statistics and analytics and hockey really hasn't taken hold, we're there now. The ability to really take a game that's has so much volatility, and we're the only professional teams sport that has personnel changes occurring in life play. So you never really know who's on the ice and the ability now to deliver real-time graphics and visualizations in the broadcast based on movements that had just played within milliseconds. And, we're starting to do that today with shot and save analytics with AWS. So where that can go in the future is really, what's probably the most exciting because it'll totally transform the way fans consumer our game. >> The NHS has always been on the cutting edge on the tech. Been following you guys for years, congratulations. Rob, the coolest thing you're working on, from Amazon, that's cool, and in formula 1 that's in your plate right now. >> Do you know what, I mean, there's so much going on at the minute. It's really difficult to choose any one thing. I think the whole partnership it's everything that we wanted it to be that, you know, the whole way that we're moving data forward and where we're revolutionizing this sport in a lot of ways, you know, sport has sat still for a long time. And to go through that digital transformation, you know, with Amazon and you know, in all the various areas that we're working on, I just think it's all, you know, it's all really, really cool. I mean, it's just moving forward at such a pace. Now. >> If you don't mind me asking why I got you here on the whole data thing, I'm just thinking about if I was on a team, I'd be like, okay, there's a whole new wild west. It's this arbitrage of data, we'll get over on the other team. Do you have to watch out, do you guys talk about like watching teams actually, I mean, it's actually innovative that they can get an edge, but an unfair advantage if they actually had used the data, is there like discussion around, like who can use the data, which teams? >> Of course. I mean, you know, when you get down to the franchises, each team can only use its individual data. You know, that's where we have key insight up at the league level because we've got, you know, a subset of all of the teams data. So we can kind of see everything that's going on. >> And watch out for the hackers coming in and get that data. >> Oh, well, alright, we've got pretty good security. >> Guys, thanks for coming on. I love the sports angle on this. It's really awesome. I think this is a great example of how cloud and digital lifestyle is coming together. The tech integration with the fan experience and the business models are super compelling, and I think that's illustration to just every other business. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate it. >> Awesome. >> Thank you. >> Okay so theCUBE's coverage here at AWS re:Invent. I'm John furrier, your host in theCUBE. You're watching the leader in event tech covers theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (soul music)

(upbeat electronic music) >> Okay thanks, Adam, and the studio. We're here on the floor in Cloud City, right in the middle of all the action, the keynotes are going on in the background. It's a packed house. I'm John Furrier. Dave Vellante's on assignment, digging in, getting those stories. He'll have the analysis, he'll be back on theCUBE, but I want to welcome Chloe Richardson, who has been holding down the main stage here in Cloud City with amazing content that she's been hosting. Chloe, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, and kicking it off day two with me. >> No, not at all. Thank you for having me! It's very exciting! I love what you guys have got over here, very fun! >> We're inside theCUBE. This is where all the action is, and also, Cloud City is really changing the game. If you look at what's going on here in Cloud City, it's pretty spectacular. >> No, I mean, the atmosphere is absolutely palpable. Isn't it? You can just feel it. People walk in and see what the future looks like for the telecoms industry. Very exciting. >> And you've been doing a great job on the main stage, we're really loving your content. Let's get into some of the content here. After the keynotes are going on, we're going to have DR maybe fly by the set later, we're going to check that out. But let's check out this videotape. This is TelcoDR. You got to check out this reel, and we'll be right back, and we'll talk about it. (smooth electronic music) >> TelcoDR burst onto the global telecom scene this year, making headlines for taking over the huge Erickson space at MWC 21, and for building Cloud City in just a hundred days. But why did the company go to such trouble? And what is their unique offering to the telecoms industry? And what drives their dynamic CEO, Danielle Royston, or DR, as everyone calls her? Cloud City Live caught up with DR, away from the hustle and bustle of the city to find out. (upbeat instrumental music) >> Hi, I'm Danielle Royston, coming to you from beautiful Barcelona! I'm here for MWC 21. About a hundred days ago, I decided to take over the iconic Erickson booth to turn it into Cloud City. Cloud City has over 30 vendors, and 70 demos, to introduce telco to what I think is the future for our industry. We're going to have three awesome experiences. We're going to talk about the new subscriber experience. We're going to talk about what's in store for the new network, and the future of work. And I'm really excited to create a community, and invite awesome telco executives to see this new feature. It's been a really tough 18 months, and we didn't know what MWC 21 was going to be like in terms of attendance. And so from the get-go, we planned this amazing experience that we call Cloud City Live. At Cloud City Live, we have two main components. We have the speaker series, where we have over 50 speakers from Amazon, Google, Microsoft, as well as CSPs, and awesome vendors, talking about the public cloud in telco. The second part of Cloud City Live is theCUBE. Think of this as like an ESPN desk of awesome tech interviews focused on telco and the public cloud, hosted by John furrier and Dave Vallente. Dave and John are going to talk to a variety of guests focused on telco in the public cloud. It's a great way for our virtual participants to feel like they're at the show, experiencing what's going on here. So excited to have them as part of the Cloud City booth. There's a ton of innovation going on in telco, and 20 years ago, Elon Musk set on his mission to Mars. I, like Elon Musk, am on a quest to take telco to the public cloud. Every year at MWC, there's always a flurry of announcements, and this year is no different. At this year's MWC, Totogi, a startup that I invested $1,000,000 in, will be launching. Totogi is introducing two products to the market this week at MWC. The first is at planetary scale charger. More than a charger, it's an engagement, coupling your network data with charging information to drive subscriber engagement, and doubling your ARPU. The second product that Totogi is introducing is a planetary scale BSS system, built on top of the TM Forum Open APIs. Both of these products will be available for viewing in the virtual booth, as well as on the show floor. The public cloud is an unstoppable mega trend that's coming to telco! I'm super excited to bring to you the vendors, the products, the demonstrations, and the speakers, both to people here in Barcelona, and virtually around the world! (upbeat instrumental music) Well, that was a fascinating insight into the origins of TelcoDR, why public cloud is going to truly disrupt the telecoms industry, and why DR herself is so passionate about it. If you'd like to find out more, come and see us at Cloud City. (groovy electronic music) >> Okay, thanks. Just rolling that reel. Chloe, I mean, look at that reel, I mean, DR, Danielle Royston, she's a star. And I've seen a lot of power players in the industry. She's got guts and determination, and she's got a vision, and she's not just, you know, making noise about telco and cloud, there's actually a lot of real good vision there! I mean, it's just so impressive. >> No, it really is. And for me, it's almost like the next moonshot. It's the moonshot of the telco world! She's innovative, she's exciting. And if we've learned anything over the last 18 months, it's that we need that in this industry, to grow for the future of the industry. So, so exciting. I think she's a real inspiration! >> And I love the fact that she's so takes the tiger by the tail. Because the telco industry is being disrupted, she's just driving the bus here. And I remember, I did a story on Teresa Carlson, who was with Amazon Web Services, she was running the public sector, and she was doing the same exact thing in that public sector world in DC, and around the world. She opened up regions in Bahrain, which as a woman, that was an amazing accomplishment. And she wasn't just a woman, she was just a power player! And she was an exceptional leader. I see DR doing the same thing, and people aren't going to like that, I'll tell you right now. People are going to be like, "Whoa, what's going on here?" >> Now of course, it's always that way we pioneers though, isn't it? At the time, people thinking what is going on here, we don't like change, why are being shaken up? But actually, afterwards, in retrospect, they think, "Oh, okay. I see why that happened, and we needed it." So, really exciting stuff. >> Making things happen, that's what we're doing here on theCUBE. Obviously, the main stage's doing a great job. Let's go check out this highlight reel. If you're watching and you missed some of the action, this is obviously the physical event back since 2019 in February, but there's also a hybrid event, a lot of virtual action going on. So, you got theCUBE Virtual, you got a lot of content on virtual sites. But in person here, we're going to go show you a highlight reel from what we did yesterday, and what was happening around the show. Enjoy this quick highlight reel from yesterday. (groovy electronic music) (cheerful instrumental music) (groovy electronic music) Okay. We're back here in theCUBE. We're on the main floor out here with Chloe, who is emceeing, hosting, and driving the content on the Cloud City main stage. Chloe, it's been great here. I mean so far, day one, I was watching your presentations and fireside chats you've been hosting. Awesome content. I mean, people are like jazzed up. >> Yeah, no, for sure. We had Scott Brighton on yesterday, who was our opening keynote on the live stage, and his session was all about the future of work, which is so relevant and so pertinent to now. And he talked about the way it's changing. And in 10 years, it's going to be a trillion dollar industry to be in the cloud at work. So, really interesting! I mean, yeah, the atmosphere here is great. Everyone's excited. It's new content everyday. And that's the thing, it's not stale content! It's stuff that people want to hear. People are here for the new hot trends, the new hot topics. It's very exciting. >> Yeah, the next big thing. And also it's a fiscal event, so since 2019, this Mobile World Congress has been a massive event, and hasn't happened since February, 2019. That's a lot of time that's elapsed in the industry because of COVID, and people are glad to be here. But a lot of stuff's changed! >> Yeah. It's a different world, right? I mean, two years in the telco industry is like a hundred years elsewhere. Everything has changed! Digital transformation migration, obviously cloud, which is what we're talking about over here at Cloud City Live. I'm wondering though, John, I'd like to pick your brains on something. >> John: Sure. >> It has changed in the last two years. We know that! But what about the future of Mobile World Congress? How do you see it changing in the next few years. >> Oh, man. That's a great question. I mean, my observation, I've been coming to the show for a very long time, over a decade and a half, and it's been a nerdy show about networks, and telecom, which is basically radios, and wireless, and then mobile. But it's very global, a lot of networks. But now it's evolving! And many people are saying, and we were talking on theCUBE yesterday, Dave Vellante was commenting, that this show is turning into a consumer like show. So CES is the big consumer electronics show in the US, in Las Vegas every year. This show has got a vibe, because of all the technology from the cloud players, and from the chips, getting smaller, faster, cheaper, more capability, lower power. So people look at the chips, the hardware. It's less about the speeds and feeds, it's more about the consumer experience. We got cars. I was talking to a guy yesterday, he said, "Vehicle e-commerce is coming." I went, "What the hell his vehicle e-commerce?" And you could be on your app driving down the freeway and go, "Hey, I want some food." Instead of having it delivered to you, you order it, you pick it up. So that's kind of what can be happening now in real time, you can do all kinds of other things. So, a lot of new things are happening. >> Yeah, I think so. Do you see that as another disruption for the industry? That is, the fact that it's moving to be more consumer focused? Is there anything we should be worried about in that space? >> Well, I think the incumbents are going to lose their positions. So I think in any new shift, new brands come in out of nowhere. And it's the people that you don't think about. It's the the company that you don't see. (audience in background applauding) And we got DR on the main stage right here, look at this! We saw her walk out with the confidence of a pro. >> Chloe: Yeah, for sure. >> She just walked out there, and she's not afraid. >> Well, as she said in her video, she is ready to wake them up! And you can see as soon as she walks out, that is what she intends to do today. >> I love her mojo. She's got a lot of energy. And back to the show, I mean, she's just an example of what I was saying. Like in every market shift, a new brand emerges. >> Chloe: Yep. >> I mean, even when Apple was tainted, they were about to shut down, they were going to run out of cash, when Steve Jobs brought back Apple, he consolidated and rebooted the company, the iPad was a seminal, iPod, a seminal moment. Then the iPhone, and just, the rest is history. That kind of disruption is coming. You're going to see that now. >> Oh, it's exciting though, isn't it? To be future ready, rather than future proof! But actually I wanted to ask you something as well, because we are seeing all these cloud players getting hot under the collar about telco. Why are they so excited? What's the buzz about wire, as you're on AWS and Google Cloud, why do they want to have a slice of the pie? >> Well, I think they're hot and heavy on the fact that telco is a ripe opportunity. And it used to be this boring, slow moving glacier. It's almost like global warming now, the icebergs are melting, and it's going to just change. And because of the edge, 5G is not a consumer wireless thing, it's not like a better phone. It's a commercial app opportunity, because it's high bandwidth. We've all been to concerts, or football games, or sporting events where a stadium is packed. Everyone gets bars on their wifi, but can't get out. Can't upload their picture to Instagram. Why? Because it's choking them on the network. That's where 5G solves a problem. It brings a lot of bandwidth, and that's going to bring the edge to life, and that's money. So when you got money, and greed, and power, changing hands, if it's on the table, and the wheel's spinning, it could be double zero, or it could be lucky seven. You don't know! >> Oh, for sure. And that's certainly enough to get all the big players hot and bothered about getting involved! And I suppose it circles back to the fact that DR is really leading the charge, and they're probably thinking, "Okay, what's going on here? This is different. We want something new." You did notice it, OpenRAN is something that we've been talking about over the last day or so. We've had quite a few of us speakers over here at Cloud City Live mention OpenRAN. What is it all about, Don? Because why all the buzz if 5G is such a hot topic? Why are we get excited about it? >> That's a great thing. The 5G certainly will drive the main trend, for sure. OpenRAN is essentially an answer to the fact that 5G is popular, and they need more infrastructure. So open source, the Linux Foundation, has been the driver for most of the open source software. So, they're trying to make open software, and open architectures, to create more entrepreneurial activity around hardware, and around infrastructure, because we need more infrastructure, we need more antennas, we need more transceivers, we need more devices. That could be open. So in order to do that, you got to open up the technology, and you want to minimize the licensing, and minimize a lot of these, you know, proprietary aspects. >> What did we look at? So on Wednesday, we've got a great keynote from Phillip Langlois, who is CEO and founder of P1 Security. And he's coming to talk to us about cybersecurity within the cloud, and within telco. So you just mentioned that OpenRAN is all about having open source, about having that space where we can share more efficiently and easily more easily. What does that mean for security though? Is it at risk? >> I think it's going to increase the value of security, and minimize the threats. Because open source, even though it's open, the more people that are working on it, the more secure it could be. So yes, it could be more open in a sense that could be explored by hackers, but open can also protect. And I think we've seen open source, and cloud in particular, be more secure. Because everyone said, cloud is not secure, open source is insecure. And as it turns out, when the collective hive minds of developers work on things, it gets secure. >> And it is interesting, isn't it? Because we have seen that there has been an uptick in cyber security threats, but actually I was speaking to some leaders across various industries, and particularly in tech, and they were saying, actually, there's not been an uptick in attempted threats, there's been an uptick because with this open-source environment, we are able to track them, and measure them, and defend more efficiently. So actually, they're being batted away. But the number is probably the same as it always was, we just didn't know about them before we had this open source environment. >> There's more money in threats, and there's more surface area. So as the tide rises, so to the threats. So on a net basis, it's more, because there's more volume, but it's pretty much the same. And look it, there's money involved, they are organized. There's a business model on attacking and getting the cash out of your bank, or ransomware is at an all time high. >> Yes! >> So this is like a big problem, and it's beyond the government. It's around individual freedom. So, security is huge. And I think open source and cloud are going to be, I think, the answer to that. >> Yeah, for sure. And it's, again, about collaboration, isn't it? Which we talk about all the time, but without collaboration, the industries are going to have to work together to promote this environment. So yeah, it should be good to talk with Phillip on Wednesday. >> I'd just say on security, don't download that PDF, if you don't know who it came from. The phishing is always good. Well, we got some great stuff coming up. We're going to have a great day. We got a video here of Mobile World Live. We're going to show this next segment, and we're going to toss it to a video. And this is really about to give the experience, Chloe, for people who aren't here. To get a feel for what's going on in Barcelona, and all the action. And if you look at the video, enjoy it. >> Hi, I'm Daniel Royston, CEO and founder of TelcoDR. But you can call me DR! Ready for some more straight talk about telco? It's go time! Let's do it. Holy shit! It sure is a great time to be a tech company! I mean, if you're Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Grab, Twilio, Door Dash, or Uber, life's pretty great! Just look at these stock prices over the past five years, with their shareholder value going up and to the right. Totally amazing! But where's telco? Dare I add our stocks to this awesome chart? Let's compare these fabulous tech stocks to AT&T, Vodafone, Telefonica, TIM, America Movil, and Zain Group. Huh. Not so great, right? Yep. I'm talking directly to you, senior telco execs. I'm here to wake you up! Why is it that Wall Street doesn't see you as tech? Why aren't CSPs seen as driving all the tech change? Why is it always Apple, Amazon and Google who get the big buzz? But more importantly, why isn't it you? Before I came to this industry, I always thought of carriers as tech companies. I gave more of my money to AT&T than to Apple, because I really cared about the quality of the network. But I also wondered why on earth the carriers allowed all the other tech companies to take center stage. After spending the last few years in telco, I now understand why. It's because you are network people, you are not customer people! I get it. You have the security blanket. You're a network oligopoly. It's crazy expensive to build a network, and it's expensive to buy spectrum. It takes operational chops to run a killer network, and it takes great skill to convince Wall Street to finance all of it. You telco execs are amazing at all those things. But because you focus on the network, it means you don't focus on the customer. And so far, you haven't had to. Every Telco's KPI is to be less shitty than their next competitor. You don't have to be the best. Just don't be last. Everyone else's NPS is in the thirties too. Their mobile app ratings are just as terrible as yours. Everyone's sucks at customer sat. And it's widely acknowledged and accepted. Let's talk about the cost of that. The cost is not measured on market share against other MNOs. The cost is measured in lost ARPU that the tech guys are getting. Everyone knows about the loss of texting to WeChat, WhatsApp, and the other OTT apps. But it is not just texting. The total adjustable market, or TAM, of the mobile app disruptors is huge! Instead of remaining network focused, you should be leveraging your network into a premier position. And because you're network people, I bet you think I'm talking about coercive network leverage. That is not what I'm talking about! I'm talking about love, customer love. There is one thing the highly valued tech companies all have in common. They all crush it on customer love! They look at every interaction with the customer and say, how do we make the customer love this? Like Netflix has easy monthly cancellation, Amazon does no questions asked returns, Uber gives users a real time view into driver rating and availability. Compare those ideas to the standard telco customer interaction. The highly valued tech companies don't have the network oligopoly to fall back on like you do. To survive, they must make customers love them. So, they focus on it in a big way! And it pays off. Their NPS is close to 70, and they have app ratings of 4.5 or higher. A far cry from your thirties NPS, and app ratings of 3.5. If you want to have those huge tech multiples for yourself, you have to start thinking about these guys as your new competition, not the other telcos in your market. The crazy thing is, if you give up using your network as a crutch, and put all of your focus on the customer, the network becomes an asset worth more than all the super apps. Let's step back and talk about the value of super apps, and becoming customer centered! Retooling around the customer is a huge change, so let's make sure it's worth it. We aren't talking about 25% improvement. I'm going to show you that if you become customer centric, you can double your ARPU, double your valuation multiples, and drive big shareholder value, just like the tech companies on that chart! Now let's talk about the customer focused super apps. There are hundreds of companies in a variety of categories vying for your subscribers' disposable income. Movies, food delivery, financial services. Who are they? And why does Wall Street give them such high valuations and like them so much? Well first, look at what they are telling Wall Street about their TAM. They broadcast ridiculously huge TAMs that are greater than the telco TAMs. You know, who should have a ridiculously huge TAM? You! Hello? What I'm saying is that if you got what's yours, you double in size. And if you take the TAMs they throw around, you'd be five times as big. When I think about the opportunity to double ARPU, without having to double the cap ex to build out the network, I say to myself, hell yeah! We should totally go do it, and do whatever it takes to go get it. For example, let's talk about Grab. Grab is a Southeast Asian super app company with an expected $40 billion valuation. Grab's customer focus started in Rideshare, but then leveraged its customer love into wallet deliveries, hospitality, and investing. Their ARPU is now larger than a Telco's ARPU in countries where they compete, and they have a higher valuation than those telcos too. Imagine if you could combine a great user experience with the valuable services that helped grow your ARPU. That would be huge! So, how do you build a super app? I bet right about now, you're wishing you had a super app. Everyone wants a super app! A lot of money has been unsuccessfully spent by telcos trying to build their own. I bet you're saying to yourself, "DR, your pie in the sky sounds great, but it has no chance of success." Well, I'm betting things are about to change. There is a public cloud startup called to Totogi that is going to help carriers build world-class super apps. To have a successful super app, there is one key metric you need to know. It is the KPI that determines if your super app will be a success or a flop. It's not about the daily active users. It's not the average order value. It's not even gross merchandise value. It's all about the frequency of use per day by the user. That's the metric that matters. How many have you used that metric in your telco apps? Do you have a team driving up user app interactions every day? Most telco apps are used for top-up, or to check a bill. This is a huge missed opportunity. Super app companies excel at building great experiences and driving a huge amount of interactions. They have to, their business depends on it. They have to be customer focused. They have to keep bringing the user back to the app, every day, multiple times a day. And you know what? They do a great job. Customers love their super apps. They have great user experiences. Like Apple credit cards, no information required application process. They have high net promoter scores because of customer friendly policies. Like how Door Dash retroactively credits fees when you move to a better plan. And they have great app store ratings, because they do simple things, like remember your last order, or allow you to use the app, rather than forced you to call customer service. Customers of successful super apps love it when new services are added. And because of the customer love, every time something is added to the app, customers adopt it immediately. New services drive frequent daily user interactions. So our problem in telco is we have an app that is only open once per month, not multiple times per day. And without frequent opens, there is no super app. Hm, what do we have in telco that we could use to help with this problem? I wonder. While you don't currently have a mobile app that subscribers use multiple times a day, you have something that's 10 times better! You have a network. Subscribers already interact with your network. 10 times more frequently than any user with any of the super apps. But telcos don't leverage those interactions into the insanely valuable engagements they could be. Worse, even if you wanted to, your crappy, over customized, on-premise solutions, make it impossible. Thankfully, there's this new tech that's come around, you may have heard of it, the public cloud. When you bring the enabling technology of the public cloud, you can turn your network interactions into valuable super app interactions. And there's a special new startup that's going to help you do it, Totogi! Totogi will leverage all those network interactions, and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Let me repeat that. Totogi will leverage all those network interactions, and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Totogi allows the carrier to leverage its network, and all the network interactions, into customer engagement. This is something that super apps don't have, but will wish they did. But this magic technology is not enough. Telcos also need to move from being network focused to being customer focused. Totogi enables telcos to chase exciting revenue growth without that annoying, massive cap ex investment. Totogi is going to help you transform your sucky mobile apps, with the crappy customer ratings, into something your subscribers want to open multiple times a day, and become a platform for growth. I'm so excited about Totogi, I'm investing $100,000,000 into it. You heard me right. $100,000,000. Is this what it feels like to be SoftBank? I'm investing into Totogi because it's going to enable telcos to leverage their network interactions into super app usage! Which will lead to an improved subscriber experience, and will give you a massive jump in your ARPU. And once you do that, all those telco valuations will go from down here, (buzzes lips) to up here. And so I've been talking to some folks, you know, checking in, feeling them out, getting their thoughts. And I've been asking them, what do you think about telcos building super apps? And the response has been, "Click. Eh." Everyone says, no way. Telcos can't do it. Zero chance. Total goose egg. (egg cracking) One suggested I build a bonfire with a hundred million dollars, because then at least I wouldn't waste years of my life. Well, I think those people are dead wrong! I do believe that telcos can build super apps and make them super successful. The public cloud is changing all parts of telco, and Totogi and super apps are fundamentally changing the customer relationships. In one month at MWC, people will see what Totogi has to offer, and they will understand why I'm making this bold call. Because Totogi takes the value of the network, and the power of the public cloud, to help telcos move from being network centric, to being customer centric. Boom! If you want to make this transformation and reap all the financial benefits, you will have to compete for customers with a whole new set of players. You will no longer compete with the network focused guys, like the other telcos. Instead, you will be competing against the customer focused companies. These players don't have a network to fall back on like your old competitors, they know they have to make customers love them. Their customer loyalty is so off the charts, their customers are called fans. So if you want that big money, you will have to compete on their turf, and make the customers want to choose you. You need Apple level loyalty. That bar is uber high. We'll have to give up the security blanket of the network, and change. Instead of NPS at the thirties, it needs to be in the seventies. Instead of mobile app ratings in the threes, they need to get five stars. I'm betting big that Totogi will make that possible! I'm going to help you every step of the way, starting with my keynote next month at MWC. Join me, and I'll share the secrets to converting your super valuable network interactions to make your super app a massive success. We're going to have an amazing time, and I can't wait to see you there! >> Okay. We're back here in theCUBE here at Mobile World Congress in Cloud City. I'm John Furrier. Chloe Richardson's filling in for Dave Vellante who's out on assignment. He's out getting all the data out there and getting stories. Chloe, what a great keynote by Danielle Royston. We just heard her involving major action, major pump you up, punch in the face, "Wake the heck up cloud people, cloud is here!" She didn't pull any punches. >> No, I mean the thing is, John, there's trillions of dollars on the table, and everyone seems to be fighting for it. >> And you heard her up there, if you're not on the public cloud, you're not going to get access to that money. It's a free for all. And I think the cloud people are like, they might think they're going to walk right in, and the telco industry is going to just give it up. >> No, of course. >> And it's not going to be, it's going to be a fight! Who will win? >> Who will win, but also who will build the next big thing? (John laughing) >> Someone needs to die in the media conversations. It's always a fight. Something's dead. Something's dead but keeps the living. All that kidding aside, this is really about partnering. Think what's happened is Telco's already acknowledged that they need to change. And the 5G edge conversation, the chip acceleration. Look at Apple. They've got their own processors, Nvidia, Amazon makes their own chips, Intel's pumping stuff out, you've got Qualcomm. You've got all these new things. So, the chips are getting faster, and the software's more open source. And I'm telling you, the cloud is just going to drive that bus right down Cloud Street, and it's going to be in Cloud City everywhere. >> And it's going to be peepin' on the board as it drives down. (John laughing) John, I'm not a stalker, but I have read some of the things that you've written, and one of the things you mentioned that was really interesting was the difference between building and operating. Break it down for me, what does that mean? >> That means basically in mature markets, and growing markets, things behave differently, and certainly economics, and the people, and the makeup, and the mindset. So the telco has been kind of this mature market, it's been changing and growing, but not like radically. Cost optimization, make profit. You know, to install a lot of cable, you got to get the rents out of that infrastructure. And that's kind of gone on for too long. Cloud is a growth market. And it's about building, not just operating. And you've got operators, carriers are operating networks. So you're going to see the convergence of operators and builders coming together. Builders being software developers, new technology, and executives that think about building. And you want people on your team that are going to be, I won't say war time, you know, lieutenants or generals, but people who can handle the pace of change. Because the change and the nature is different. And some people want slow and steady, keep the boat from rocking. But in a growth market, it's turbulent, and the ride might not be quiet, first-class ticket to paradise. It's bumpy, but it's thrilling. >> No, of course. Is it similar to the old sales adage of hunter versus farmer? Are there parallels there? >> Yeah. I mean, there's a mindset. If you have a team of people that aren't knocking down new opportunities and building the next big thing, fixing your house, get your house in order, you know, refactor, reset, reboot, replatform with the cloud, and then refactor your business! If you don't have the people thinking like that, you're probably either going to be taken over, or go out of business. And that's what the telcos with all these assets, they're going to get bought, rolled into a SPAC, Special Purpose Acquisition Company, which is super hot in the United States. A lot of roll-ups going on with private equity. So a lot of these telcos, if they don't refactor, or replatform then refactor, they're going to be toast, and they're going to get rolled up, and eaten up by somebody else. >> Yeah, sure. It's interesting though, isn't it? Because when we think of telco in tech, we often think of, obviously we've got the triad, people, process, technology, and we think, process and technology really to the forefront here. But like you said there, people are also so important because if you don't have this right balance, you're not going to be able to drive that change. We had, obviously, Scott Brighton on the stage yesterday, and after his session, somebody came up to me and just said, "I'm interested to hear what that means for education." So how can we establish this new generation of tech and telco leaders from the grassroots with educational associations, establishments. How can we encourage that? I wonder, is this something that you talk about? >> Yeah. I mean, education's huge, and this highlights the change that telco's now part of. Telco used to be a boring industry that ran the networks, or moving packets around, and mobile was there. But once the iPhone came out in 2007, the life has changed, society has changed, education's changed, how people interact has changed. So, you start to see people now aware of the value. And if you look at during COVID, the internet didn't crash, the telcos actually saved our asses, and everyone survived because the network didn't break. Yeah, we had some bad Zoom meetings here and there, and some teleconferences that didn't go well, but for the most part we survived, and they really saved everybody. So, they should get kudos for that. But now they're dependent upon healthcare, education. People care about that stuff, so now you're going to start to see an elevated focus on what telecom is doing. That's why the edge has got trillions of dollars up for grabs. But education, there's negative unemployment in cybersecurity and in cloud. So for the people who say, "Oh, there's no jobs." Or, "I can't work." That's a bunch of BS, because you can just get online, get on YouTube, and just get a degree. You can get a degree. You can get an Amazon job. It pays a hundred thousand dollars a year! American. You can make a hundred thousand pounds, and be unemployed six months, and then be employed. So negative unemployment means, there's more jobs than people to fill them all, in fact. >> Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned that, because I was talking to a cyber security leader who was saying in something, I think there were now 3 million vacancies in cybersecurity. And there's such a skill shortage. There is nobody around to fill it! So it's an interesting problem to have, isn't it? Because it's reversed to what we've been used to for the last few decades! And obviously, telco is in the same space. But what can we do about it do you think, to actually -- >> I think it's going to take leadership, and I'm a big proponent of kids not going to university if they don't have to. Why spend the dough, money, if you don't have to? You can get online. I mean, the data's there. But to me, it's the relationships, the mentorship. You're starting to see a women in tech, and underrepresented minorities in the tech field, where mentorship is more important than curriculum. Community is more important than just going through a linear courseware. Nobody wants to sit online and go through linear courseware. Now, if they have to get a certificate, or degree, and accreditation, no problem. But the communities are out there, so that's a big change over, I'm a big fan of that. And I think people should, you know, get some specialized skills. You can get that online, so why even go to school? So, people are figuring that out. >> For sure. And also, even transferring. I mean, so many skills are transferable nowadays, aren't they, so we could easily be talking to people from other industries, and bringing them into telco, and saying, "Look, bring what you know from your retail background, or your healthcare background, and help us at telco to, again, drive forwards." Just like DR was saying, it's all about the next big thing. >> Well, Danielle is always also driving a lot of change. And if you think about the jobs, and the pedigree of going to a university, oh, Harvard, all the big Ivy Leagues, Oxford in your area. So it's like, if you go to the school like that, and you get a pedigree, you instantly get a job. Now the jobs that are available weren't around five years ago, so there's no like pedigree or track record. There's no like, everyone's equal. >> Yeah. >> So you could, the democratization of the internet now, from a job standpoint, is people are leveling up faster. So it's not about the Ivy League, or the big degree, or silver spoon in your mouth, you've got the entitlement. So you start to see people emerging and making things happen. Entrepreneurship in America, immigrant entrepreneurship. People are billionaires that have no high school diplomas! >> It's interesting you mention that, John, because we can't have more than five years experience in this space, we know that. But in telco, there is a problem. And maybe it's, again, it's a flipped problem where telco recruiters, or talent acquisition leaders, are now asking for kind of 10, 20 years experience when they're sending out job descriptions. So does that mean that we are at fault for not being able to fill all these vacancies? >> I think that's just, I mean I think there's a transition of the new skill set happening, one. But two, I think, you know, to be like a chip engineer, (laughs) you can't learn that online. But if you want to run a cloud infrastructure, you can. But I think embedded systems is an area that I was talking to an engineer, there's a huge shortage of engineers who code on the microprocessors, on the chips. So, embedded systems is a big career. So there's definitely paths you can specialize. Space is another area you've seen a lot of activity on. You see Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk is going to be here on a virtual keynote, trying to go to Mars. And you know, Danielle Royston always says, "What's going to happen first, Mars colony, or telco adopting public cloud?" And some people think Mars will happen first, but. >> What do you think, John? >> I think Telco's going to get cloud. I mean first of all, public cloud is now hybrid cloud, and the edge, this whole internet edge, 5G, is so symbolic and so important, because it's an architectural beachhead. And that's where the trillion dollar baby is. So, the inside baseball, and the inside money, and all the investors are focusing on the edge, because whoever can command the edge, wins all the dollars. So everyone kind of knows, it's a public secret, and it's fun to watch everyone jockey for the positions. >> Yeah no, it really is. But it's also quite funny, isn't it? Because the edge is almost where we were decades ago, but we're putting the control back in the hands of consumers. So, it's an interesting flip. And I wonder if, with the edge, we can really enhance this acceleration of product development, this efficiency, this frictionless system in which we live in. And also, I've heard you say hybrid a few times, John. >> John: Yeah. >> Is hybrid going to be the future of the world no matter what industry you're in? >> Hybrid is everything now. So, we're the hybrid CUBE, we've got hybrid cloud. >> Exactly. >> You got hybrid telco, because now you've got the confluence of online and offline coming together. That is critical dynamic! And you're seeing it. Like virtual reality, for instance, now you're seeing things, I know you guys are doing some great work at your company around creating experiences that are virtual. You got, companies like Roblox went public recently. Metaverse. It's a good time to be in that business, because experiential human relations are coming. So, I think that's going to be powered by 5G. You know, gamers. So, all good stuff. Chloe, great to be with you here on theCUBE, and we're looking forward to seeing your main stage. >> Great. >> And then we're going to send it back to the studio, Adam, and the team. We're waiting for DR to arrive here in Cloud City. And this is theCUBE, from Cloud City, back to you, Adam, and the studio.

(upbeat music) >> Okay, thanks Adam in the studio. We're here on the floor in Cloud City, right in the middle of all the action. The keynotes are going on in the background, it's a packed house. I'm John Furrier. Dave Vellante is on assignment, digging in, getting those stories. He'll have the analysis, he'll be back on theCUBE but I want to welcome Chloe Richardson, who has been holding down the main stage here in Cloud City, with amazing content that she's been hosting. Chloe, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE and kicking it up day two with me. >> No, not at all. Thank you for having me. It's very exciting. I love what you guys have got over here, very fun. >> We're inside theCUBE. This is where all the action is. And also the Cloud City is really changing the game. If you look at what's going on here in Cloud City, it's pretty spectacular. >> Know, I mean the atmosphere is absolutely palpable, isn't it? You can just feel as people walk in and see what the future looks like to the Telecoms industry, it's very exciting. >> And you've been doing a great job on the main stage. We've been really loving your content. Let's get into some of the content here. Actually the keynote is going on, we're going to have DR, maybe fly by the set later, we're going to check that up. But let's check out this videotape of, this is TelcoDR. You got to check out this reel and we'll be right back, we'll talk about it. (upbeat music) >> TelcoDR burst onto the global telecom scene this year, making headlines for taking over the huge Erickson's space at MWC21. And for building Cloud City in just a hundred days. But why did the company go to such trouble? And what is the unique offering to the telecoms industry? And what drives their dynamic CEO, Danielle Royston or DR as everyone calls her? Cloud City Live caught up with DR, away from the hustle and bustle of the city to find out. (upbeat music) >> Hi, I'm Danielle Royston, coming to you from beautiful Barcelona. I'm here for MWC21. About a hundred days ago, I decided to take over the iconic Erickson booth to turn it into Cloud City. Cloud City has over 30 vendors and 70 demos to introduce telco to what I think is the future for our industry. We're going to have three awesome experiences. We're going to talk about the new subscriber experience, we're going to talk about what's in store for the new network and the future of work. I'm really excited to create a community and invite awesome telco executives to see this new future. It's been a really tough 18 months, and we didn't know what MWC21 was going to be like in terms of attendance. And so from the get go we plan this amazing experience that we call, Cloud City Live. At Cloud City Live, we have two main components. We have the speaker series where we have over 50 speakers from Amazon, Google, Microsoft, as well as CSPs and awesome vendors talking about the public cloud in telco. The second part of Cloud City Live, is theCUBE. Think of this as like an ESPN desk of awesome tech interviews focused on telco and the public cloud hosted by John Furrier and Dave Vellante. Dave and John are going to talk to a variety of guests, focused on telco and the public cloud. It's a great way for our virtual participants to feel like they're at the show, experiencing what's going on here. So excited to have them as part of the Cloud City booth. There's a ton of innovation going on in telco. And 20 years ago, Elon Musk set on his mission to Mars. I, like Elon Musk, I'm on a quest to take telco to the public cloud. Every year at MWC, there's always a flurry of announcements and this year is no different. At this year's MWC, Totogi, a startup that I invested a hundred million dollars in, will be launching. Totogi is introducing two products to the market, this week at MWC. The first is a planetary scale charger. More than a charger, it's an engagement coupling dual network data with charging information to drive subscriber engagement and doubling your ARPU. The second product that Totogi is introducing, is a planetary scale BSS system built on top of the TM forum, open APIs. Both of these products will be available for viewing in the virtual booth, as well as on the show for. The public cloud is an unstoppable mega trend that's coming to telco. I'm super excited to bring to you, the vendors, the products, the demonstrations, and the speakers, both to people here in Barcelona and virtually around the world. (upbeat music) >> Well, that was a fascinating insight into the origins of TelcoDR, why public cloud is going to truly disrupt the telecoms industry and why DR herself is so passionate about it. If you'd like to find out more, come and see us at Cloud City. (upbeat music) >> Okay, thanks. Just roll on that reel. Chloe, I mean, look at that reel. I mean, DR, Danielle Royston, she's a star and I've seen a lot of power players in the industry. She's got guts and determination, and she's got a vision and she's not just, you know, making noise about telco and cloud, there's actually a lot of real good vision there. I mean, it's just so impressive. >> No, really isn't. And for me, it's almost like the next moonshot. It's the moonshot of the telco world. She's innovative, she's exciting and if we've learned anything over the last 18 months is that we need to in this industry to grow and for the future of the industry. So, it's so exciting. I think she's a real inspiration. >> And I love the fact that she's so, takes a tiger by the tail, because the telco industry is being disrupted. She's just driving the bus here and I remember I did a story on Teresa Carlson, who was with Amazon web services, she was running the public sector and she was doing the same exact thing in that public sector world in DC and around the world. She opened up regions in Bahrain, which as a woman, that was an amazing accomplishment. And she wasn't just a woman, she was just a power player. And she was exceptional leader. I see DR doing the same thing and people aren't going to like that, I'll tell you right now. People are going to be like, whoa, what's going on here? >> And of course, it's always the way we pioneers though, isn't it? At the time people thinking what's going, we don't like change, why are we being shaken up. But actually afterwards, in retrospect, they think, oh, okay, I see why that happened and we needed it. So really exciting stuff. >> Making things happen, that's what we're doing here in theCUBE. Obviously the main stage's doing a great job. Let's go check out this highlight reel. If you're watching and you miss some of the action, this is, I'll see the physical event back since 2019 in February, but there's also a Hybrid event. A lot of virtual action going on. So you got theCUBE virtual, you got a lot of content on virtual sites, but in person here, we're going to go show you a highlight reel from what we did yesterday, what was happening around the show? Enjoy this quick highlight reel from yesterday. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Okay. We're back here in theCUBE. We're the main floor out here with Chloe Richardson, who is emceeing, hosting and driving the content on the Cloud City main stage. Chloe, it's been great here. I mean, so far day one, I was watching your presentations and inspire site chats you've been hosting. Awesome content. I mean, people are like jazzed up. >> Yeah, I know for sure. We had Scott Brighton on yesterday, who was our opening keynote on the live stage. And his session was all about the future of work, which is so relevant and so pertinent to now. And he talked about the way it's changing and in 10 years it's going to be a trillion dollar industry to be in the cloud at work. So really interesting. I mean, yeah, the atmosphere here is great, everyone's excited, there's new content everyday. And that's the thing, it's not stale content. It's stuff that people want to hear. People are here for the new hot trends, the new hot topics. Really exciting. >> Yeah, the next big thing. And also it's a fiscal event. So since 2019, this Mobile World Congress has been a massive event and hasn't happened since February, 2019. That's a lot of time that's elapsed in the industry cause of COVID and people are glad to be here, but a lot of stuff's changed. >> Yeah, it's a different world, right? I mean, two years in the telco industry is like a hundred years elsewhere. Everything has changed, digital transformation migration, obviously cloud, which is what we're talking about over here at Cloud City Live. I'm wondering though John, I'd like to pick your brains on something. >> Sure. >> It has changed in the last two years, we know that, but what about the future of Mobile World Congress? How do you see it changing in the next few years? >> Oh man, that's a great question. I mean, my observation, I've been coming to the show for a very long time, over a decade and a half, and it's been a nerdy show about networks and telecom, which is basically radios and wireless and then mobile. It's very global, a lot of networks, but now it's evolving and many people are saying, and we were talking on theCUBE yesterday, Dave Vellante was commenting that this show is turning into a consumer like show. So CES is the big consumer electronics show in the US, in Las Vegas every year. This show has got a vibe because what's all the technology from the cloud players and from the chips, are getting smaller, faster, cheaper, more capability, lower power. So if you look at the chips, the hardware, it's less about the speeds and feeds. It's more about the consumer experience. You got cars. I was talking to a guy yesterday, he said, "Vehicle e-commerce is coming." I'm like, "What the hell his vehicle e-commerce?" And you could be on your app, driving down the freeway and go, "Hey, I want some food." Instead of having it delivered to you, if you order it you pick it up. So that's kind of can be happening now in real time, you can do all kinds of other things. so a lot of new things are happening. >> Yeah, I think so. Do you see that as another disruption for the industry that is the fact that it's moving to be more consumer focused? Is that anything we should be worried about in that space? >> Well I think the incumbents are going to lose their position. So I think in any new shift, new brands come in out of nowhere. >> For sure. >> And it's the people that you don't think about. It's the company that's not, that you don't see. And we got DR on the main stage right here, look at this. You saw her walk out with the confidence of a pro. She just walked out there and she's not afraid. >> No. Well, as she said in her video, she is ready to wake them up and you can see as soon as she worked out. That is what she intends to do. >> I love her mojo, she's got a lot of energy. And back to the show, I mean, she's just an example of what I was saying. Like in every market shift, a new brand emerges. >> Yep. >> I mean, even when apple was tainted, they were about to shut down, they were going to run out of cash. When Steve Jobs brought back apple, he consolidated and rebooted the company. The iPad was a similar moment, then the iPhone and just the rest is history. That kind of disruption's coming. You're going to see that here. >> Yeah. Oh, it's exciting though isn't it? To be future ready rather than future proof but actually I wanted to ask you something as well, because we are seeing all these cloud players getting hot under the collar about telco. Why are they so excited? What's the buzz about why, as you're in MWS and Google Cloud? Why do they want to have a slice of the pie? >> Well, I think they're hot, hot and heavy on the fact that telco is a ripe opportunity and it used to be this boring, slow moving glacier. >> Okay. >> It's almost like global warming now. The icebergs are melting and it's going to just change and because of the edge, 5G is not a consumer wireless thing. It's not like a better phone, it's a commercial app opportunity cause it's high bandwidth. We've all been to concerts or football games or sporting events where a stadium is packed. Everyone gets bars on their wifi, but can't get out, can't upload their pictures on Instagram. Why? Because it's choking them in the network. That's where 5G solves the problem. It brings a lot of bandwidth and that's going to bring the edge to life and that's money. So when you got money and greed and power changing hands, it's every, it's on the table and the wheel's spinning, and it could be double zero, or it could be lucky seven. You don't know. >> Yeah, for sure. And that's certainly enough to get all the big players hot and bothered about getting involved. And I suppose it circles back to the fact that, DR is really leading the charge and they're probably thinking, okay, what's going on here? This is different, we want something new. You didn't know it's an open run or something that we've been talking about over the last day or so. We've had quite a few of us speakers over here constantly. I've mentioned open run. What is it all about John? Because why all the bars, if 5G is such a hot topic? Why are we getting excited about it? >> That's a great thing. 5G certainly is Google Drive the main trend for sure. OpenRent is essentially an answer to the fact that 5G is popular and they need more infrastructure. So open source, the Linux Foundation has been the driver for most of the open source software. So they're trying to bring software and open architectures to create more entrepreneurial activity around hardware and around infrastructure because we need more infrastructure. We need more antennas, we need more transceivers, we need more devices that could be open. So in order to do that, you got to open up the technology and you want to minimize the licensing and minimize a lot of these, you know, proprietary aspects. >> What if we look at, so on Wednesday, we've got a great keynote from Philippe Langlois, who is CEO and founder of P1 Security. And he's coming to talk to us about cybersecurity within the cloud and within telco. So you just mentioned that. Open mind, it's all about having open source, about having that space where we can share more efficiently and easy, more easily. What does that mean for security though? Is it a risk? >> I think that's going to increase the value of security and minimize the threats. Because open source, even though it's open, the more people that are working on it, the more secure it could be. So yes, it could be more open in sense that could be explored by hackers, but it can be open to also protect. And I think we've seen open source and cloud in particular be more secure because everyone said, "Cloud is not secure, open source is not secure." And as it turns out when the collective hive minds of developers work on things, it gets secure. >> And it is interesting, isn't it? Because we have seen that there has been an uptick in cyber security and threats. But actually I was speaking to some leaders in across various industries and particularly in tech. And they were saying, "Actually there's not been an uptick in attempted threats, there's been an uptick because with this open source environment. We are able to track them and measure them and defend more efficiently. So actually they're being battered away, but the number is probably the same as it always was. We just didn't know about them before we had this open source environment. >> There's more money in threats and there's more surface area. So as the tide rises, so do the threats. So on a net basis it's more because there's more volume, but it's pretty much the same. And look at it, there's money involved, they're organized, there's a business model on attacking and getting the cash out of your bank or ransomwares at an all time high. So this is like a big problem and it's beyond the government, it's our individual freedom. So security its huge and I think open source and cloud are going to be, I think the answer to that. >> Yeah, for sure. And it's again about collaboration, isn't it? Which we talk about all the time but without collaboration that the industries aren't going to have to work together to promote this environment. So yeah, it should be good to talk with Phillip on Wednesday. >> I just say in security, don't download that PDF if you don't know who came from. The fishing is always good. Well, we got some great stuff coming up. We're going to have a great day. We got a video here on Mobile World Live, we're going to show this next segment and we're going to toss it to a video. And this is really about to give the experience Chloe, for people who aren't here, right? >> Yeah. >> To get a feel for what's going on in Barcelona and all the actions. And if you look at the video, enjoy it. >> Hi, I'm Danielle Royston, CEO and founder of TelcoDr, but you can call me DR. Ready for some more straight talk about telco? It's go time, let's do it. Holy shit. It sure is a great time to be a tech company. I mean, if you're Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Grab, Twilio, DoorDash or Uber, life's pretty great. Just look at these stock prices over the past five years with their shareholder value going up into the right. Totally amazing. But where's telco? There I add our stocks to this awesome chart. Let's compare these fabulous tech stocks to AT&T, Vodafone, Telefonica, Tim, America Movil and Zain group. Huh, not so great, right? Yep. I'm talking directly to you senior telco execs. I'm here to wake you up. Why is it that Wall Street doesn't see you as tech? Why aren't CSPs seen as driving all the tech change? Why is it always Apple, Amazon and Google who get the big buzz? But more importantly, why isn't it you? Before I came to this industry, I always thought of carriers as tech companies. I gave more of my money to AT&T and to Apple because I really cared about the quality of the network. But I also wondered why on earth, the carriers allowed all the other tech companies to take center stage. After spending the last few years in telco, I now understand why. It's because you are network people, you are not customer people. I get it, you have the security blanket, you're a network oligopoly. It's crazy expensive to build a network and it's expensive to buy spectrum. It takes operational chops to run a killer network and it takes great skill to convince Wall Street, to finance all of it. You telco execs are amazing at all those things, but because you focus on the network, it means you don't focus on the customer. And so far you haven't had to. Every telco's KPI is to be less shitty than their next competitor. You don't have to be the best, just don't be last. Everyone else's NPS, is in the thirties too. Their mobile app ratings are just as terrible as yours. Everyone's sucks at customer sat and it's widely acknowledged and accepted. Let's talk about the cost of that. The cost is not measured on market share against other MNOs. The cost is measured in lost ARPU that the tech guys are getting. Everyone knows about the loss of texting, to WeChat, WhatsApp and the other OTT apps, but it is not just texting. The total adjustable market or term of the mobile app disruptors is huge. Instead of remaining network focused, you should be leveraging your network into a premier position. And because you're a network people, I bet you think I'm talking about coercive network leverage. That is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about love, customer love. There is one thing the highly valued tech companies all have in common. They all crush it on customer love. They look at every interaction with the customer and say, "How do we make the customer love this?" Like Netflix has easy monthly cancellation, Amazon does no questions asked returns, Uber gives users a real time view into driver rating and availability. Compare those ideas to the standard telco customer interaction. The highly valued tech companies, don't have the network oligopoly to fall back on like you do. To survive they must make customers love them. So they focus on it in a big way and it pays off. Their NPS is close to 70 and they have app ratings of 4.5 or higher. A far cry from your thirties NPS and app ratings of 3.5. If you want to have those huge tech multiples for yourself, you have to start thinking about these guys as your new competition, not the other telcos in your market. The crazy thing is, if you give up using your network as a crutch and put all of your focus on the customer, the network becomes an asset worth more than all the super apps. Let's step back and talk about the value of super apps and becoming customer centric. Retooling around the customer is a huge change. So let's make sure it's worth it. We aren't talking about 25% improvement. I'm going to show you that if you become customer centric, you can double your ARPU, double your valuation multiples and drive big shareholder value just like the tech companies on that chart. Now let's talk about the customer focused super apps. There are hundreds of companies and a variety of categories vying for your subscriber's disposable income. Movies, food delivery, financial services, who are they? And why does Wall Street give them such high evaluations and like them so much? Well first, look at what they are telling Wall Street about their TAM. They broadcast ridiculously huge TAMs that are greater than the telco TAMs. You know, who should have a ridiculously huge TAM? You. Hello. What I'm saying is that if you got what's yours, you double in size. And if you take the TAAMs they throw around, you'll be five times as big. When I think about the opportunity to double ARPU, without having to double the CapEx, to build out the network, I say to myself, "Hell yeah, we should totally go do it and do whatever it takes to go get." For example, let's talk about Grab. Grab is a southeast Asian super app company with an expected $40 billion valuation. Grab's customer focused started in rideshare, but then leverage its customer love into wallet deliveries, hospitality, and investing. Their ARPU is now larger than a telco's ARPU in countries where they compete, and they have a higher valuation than those telcos too. Imagine if you could combine a great user experience with a valuable services that helped grow your ARPU, that would be huge. So how do you build a super app? I bet right about now, you're wishing you had a super app. Everyone wants a super app. A lot of money has been unsuccessfully spent by telcos trying to build their own. I bet you're saying to yourself, "DR, your pie in the sky sounds great but it has no chance of success." Well, I'm betting things are about to change. There is a public cloud startup called Totogi that is going to help carriers build world class super apps. To have a successful super app, there is one key metric you need to know. It is the KPI that determines if your super app will be a success or a flop. It's not about the daily active users, it's not the average order value, it's not even gross merchandise value. It's all about the frequency of use per day by the user, that's the metric that matters. How many of you use that metric in your telco apps? Do you have a team driving up user app interactions every day? Most telco apps are used for top up or to check a bill. This is a huge missed opportunity. Super app companies excel at building great experiences and driving a huge amount of interactions. They have to, their business depends on it. They have to be customer focused. They have to keep bringing the user back to the app, every day, multiple times a day. And you know what? They do a great job. Customers love their super apps. They have great user experiences like Apple credit cards, no information required, application process. They have high net promoter scores because of customer friendly policies, like how DoorDash retroactively credits fees when you move to a better plan. And they have great app store ratings because they do simple things like remember your last order, or allow you to use the app rather than force you to call customer service. Customers of successful super apps love it when new services are added. And because of the customer love, every time something is added to the app, customers adopt it immediately. New services drive frequent daily user interactions. So our problem in telco is we have an app that is only open once per month, not multiple times per day. And without frequent opens, there is no super app. What do we do we have in telco that we could use to help with this problem? I wonder, why you don't currently have a mobile app that subscribers use multiple times a day. You have something that's 10 times better. You have a network. Subscribers already interact with your network 10 times more frequently than any user with any of the super apps. But telcos don't leverage those interactions into the insanely valuable engagements they could be. Worse, even if you wanted to your crappy over customized on premise solutions, make it impossible. Thankfully, there's this new tech that's come around, you may have heard of it. The public cloud. When you bring the enabling technology of the public cloud, you can turn your network interactions into valuable super app interactions. And there's a special new startup that's going to help you do it, Totogi. Totogi will leverage all those network interactions and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Let me repeat that. Totogi will leverage all those network interactions and turn them into valuable customer interactions. Totogi allows the carrier to leverage its network and all the network interactions into customer engagement. This is something the super apps don't have but will wish they did. But this magic technology is not enough. Telcos also need to move from being network focus to being customer focused. Totogi enables telcos to chase exciting revenue growth without that annoying massive CapEx investment. Totogi is going to help you transform your sucky mobile apps with the crappy customer ratings, into something your subscribers want to open multiple times a day and become a platform for growth. I'm so excited about Totogi, I'm investing $100 million into it. You heard me right, $100 million. Is this what it feels like to be soft bank? I'm investing in Totogi because it's going to enable telcos to leverage the network interactions into super app usage. Which will lead to an improved subscriber experience and will give you a massive jump in your ARPU. And once you do that, all those Telco valuations will go from down here to up here. And so I've been talking to some folks, you know, checking in, feeling them out, getting their thoughts, and I've been asking them, what do you think about telcos building super apps? And the response has been, click, everyone says, "No way, telcos can't do it." Zero chance, total goose egg. One suggested I build a bonfire with 100 million dollars, because then at least I wouldn't waste years of my life. Well I think those people are dead wrong. I do believe that telcos can build super apps and make them super successful. The public cloud is changing all parts of telco and Totogi and super apps are fundamentally changing, the customer relationships. In one month at MWC, people will see what Totogi has to offer, and they will understand why I'm making this bold call. Because the Totogi takes the value of the network and the power of the public cloud to help telcos move from being network centric, to being customer centric. Boom! If you want to make this transformation and reap all the financial benefits, you will have to compete for customers with a whole new set of players. You will no longer compete with the network focus guys like the other telcos, instead you will be competing against the customer focused companies. These players don't have a network to fall back on like your old competitors. They know they have to make customers love them. Their customer loyalty is so off the charts, their customers are called fans. So if you want that big money, you will have to compete on their turf and make the customers want to choose you, you need Apple level loyalty. That bar is uber high. We will have to give up the security blanket of the network and change. Instead of NPS of the thirties, it needs to be in the 70s. Instead of mobile app ratings in the threes, they need to get five stars. I'm betting big that Totogi will make that possible. I'm going to help you every step of the way, starting with my keynote next month at MWC. Join me and I'll share the secrets to converting your super valuable network interactions to make your super app a massive success. We're going to have an amazing time and I can't wait to see you there. >> Okay. We're back here in theCUBE here at Mobile World Congress in Cloud City. I'm John Furrier, Chloe Richardson filling it for Dave Vellante who's out on assignment. He's out getting all the data out there and getting stories. Chloe, what a great keynote by Danielle Royston. We just heard her and while with major action, major pump me up, punch in the face, wake the heck up cloud people, cloud is here. She didn't pull any punches. >> No, I mean the thing is John, there's trillions of dollars on the table and everyone seems to be fighting for it. >> And you heard her up there, if you're not on the public cloud, you're not going to get access to that money. It's a free for all. And I think the cloud people are like, they might think they're going to walk right in and the telco industry is going to just give it up. >> No, of course. >> There's not going to be, it's going to be a fight, who will win. >> Who will win but also who will build the next big thing? >> Someone needs to die in the media conversation, it's always a fight, something's dead, something's dead but keeps the living. All that kidding aside, this is really about partnering. I think what's happened is, telco's already acknowledged that they need to change in the 5G edge conversation, the chip acceleration. Look at Apple, they've got their own processors, Nvidia, Amazon makes their own chips, Intel's pumping stuff out, you've got Qualcomm, you've got all these new things. So the chips are getting faster and the software's more open source and I'm telling you, cloud is just going to drive that bus right down clouds street and it's going to be in Cloud City everywhere. >> And it's going to be peeping on the board as it drives down. John, I'm not a stalker, but I have read some of the things that you've written. And one of the things you mentioned that was really interesting was the difference between building and operating. Break it down for me. What does that mean? >> That means basically in mature markets and growing markets things behave differently and certainly economics and the people and the makeup and the mindset. >> Okay. >> So the telco has been kind of this mature market. It's been changing and growing but not like radically. Cost optimization, make profit, you know, install a lot of cable. You got to get the rents out of that infrastructure and that's kind of gone on for too long. Cloud is a growth market, and it's about building, not just operating and you've got operators, carriers are operating networks. So you're going to see the convergence of operators and builders coming together, builders being software developers, new technology and executives that think about building. And you want people on your team that are going to be, I won't say war time, you know, lieutenants or generals, but people who can handle the pace of change. >> Okay. >> Because the change and the nature is different. And some people want slow and steady, keep the boat from rocking, but in a growth market, it's turbulent and ride might not be quiet, first class ticket to paradise, but it's bumpy, but it's thrilling. >> No, of course. Is it similar to the old sales adage of hunter versus farmer and the parallels? >> Yeah. I mean, the mindset. If you have a team of people that aren't knocking down new opportunities and building the next big thing, fixing your house, get your house in order, you know, refactor, reset, reboot, re platform with the cloud and then refactor your business. If you don't have the people thinking like that, you're probably either going to be taken over or go out of business. And that's what the telco with all these assets, they're going to get bought roll into a SPAC, special purpose acquisition company was a super hot in the United States. A lot of roll ups going on with Private equity. So a lot of these telcos, if they don't refactor or re platform, then refactor, they're going to be toast and they're going to get rolled up and eaten up by somebody else. >> Yeah, sure. It's interesting though, isn't it? Because when we think of telco in tech, we often think of, obviously we've got the triad. People process technology, and we think process and technology really take the forefront here but like you said there, people are also so important because if you don't have this right balance, you're not going to be able to drive that change. We had, obviously Scott Brighton on the stage yesterday and after his session, somebody came up to me and just said, "I'm interested to hear what that means for education." So how can we establish this new generation of tech and telco leaders from the grassroots with educational associations establishments? How can we encourage that? I wonder, is this something that you talk about often? >> Yeah. I mean, education is huge and this highlights the change that telcos now part of. Telco used to be a boring industry that ran the networks, or moving packets around and mobile was there, but once the iPhone came out in 2007, the life has changed, society has changed, education's changed, how people interact has changed. So you start to see people now aware of the value and if you look at the, during the COVID, the internet didn't crash, the telcos actually saved our asses and everyone was, survive because the network didn't break. Yeah, we had some bad zoom meetings here and there and some teleconferences that didn't go well but for the most part we survived and they really saved everybody, my goodness. So they should get kudos for that. But now they're dependent upon healthcare, education, people care about that stuff. So now you're going to start to see an elevated focus on what telecom is doing. That's why The Edge has checked trillions of dollars up for grabs. But education, there's negative unemployment in cybersecurity and in cloud. So for the people who say, oh, there's no jobs or I can't work, that's a bunch of BS because you can just get online, get on YouTube and just get a degree. You can get a degree, you can get an Amazon job, it pays a hundred thousand dollars a year, American. You can make a hundred thousand pounds and be unemployed six months and then be employed. So negative unemployment means there's more jobs than people to fill them qualify. >> Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned that because I was talking to a cyber security leader who was saying in some of the things there were now 3 million vacancies in cybersecurity and there's such a skill shortage, there is nobody around to fill it. So it's an interesting problem to have isn't it? Cause it's reversed to what we've been used to for the last few decades and obviously telco is in the same space. What can we do about it? Do you think it will actually bring people in? >> I think it's going to take leadership and I'm a big proponent of kids not going to university, they don't have to. Why spend the dough, money if you don't have to? You can get online. I mean, the data's there, but to me it's the relationships, the mentorship. You starting to see women in tech and underrepresented minorities in the tech field, where mentorship is more important than curriculum. Community is more important than just going through a linear course where nobody wants to sit online and go through linear courseware. Now, if they have to get a certificate or degree and accreditation no problem, but communities are out there. So that's a big change over, I'm a big fan of that and I think people should, you know, get some specialized skills, you can get that online. So why even go to school? So people are figuring that out. >> For sure. And also even transferring, I mean, so many skills are transferable nowadays, aren't there? So we could easily be talking to people from other industries and bringing them into telco and saying, look, bring what you know from your retail background or your healthcare background and help us at telco to again, drive forward, just like DR is saying it's all about the next big thing. >> Danielle, I was also driving a lot of change and if you think about the jobs and a pedigree of going to a university, oh, Harvard, all the big Ivy leagues, Oxford in your area. So it's like, if you go to a school like that and you get a pedigree, you instantly get a job. Now, the jobs that are available, weren't around five years ago. So there's no like pedigree or track record, there's no like, everyone's equal. >> Yeah. >> So you could, the democratization of the internet now is, from a job standpoint is, people are leveling up faster. So it's not about the Ivy league or the big degree or silver spoon in your mouth, you've got the entitlement. So you start to see people emergent and make things happen, entrepreneurship in America, immigrant entrepreneurship. People are billionaires that have no high school diplomas. >> It's interesting you mentioned that John, because we can have more than five years experience in this space, we know that but in telco there is a problem and maybe it's, again it's a flipped problem where, telco recruiters or talent acquisition leaders, are now asking for kind of 10, 20 years experience when they're sending out job descriptions. So does that mean that we are at fault for not being able to fill all these vacancies? >> Well, I mean, I think that's just, I mean, I think there's a transition of the new skill set happening one, but two, I think, you know, you've got to be like a chip engineer, you can't learn that online, but if you want to run a cloud infrastructure, you can. But I think embedded systems is an area that I was talking to an engineer, there's a huge shortage of engineers who code on the microprocessors, on the chips. So embedded systems is a big career. So there's definitely parts, you can specialize, space is another area you've seen a lot of activity on, obviously Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk is going to be here on virtual keynote, trying to go to Mars. And, you know, Danielle Royston always says, who's going to happen first, Mars, colony, or telco adopting public cloud? Some people think Mars will happen first but. >> What do you think John? >> I think telco's going to get cloud. I mean, first of all, public cloud is now hybrid cloud and the edge, this whole internet edge, 5G, is so symbolic and so important because it's an architectural beachhead. >> Yeah. >> And that's where the trillion dollar baby is. >> Of course. >> So the inside baseball and the inside money and all the investors are focusing on the edge because whoever can command the edge, wins all the dollars. So everyone kind of knows it's a public secret and it's fun to watch, everyone jockey for the positions. >> Yeah, know, it really is. But it's also quite funny, isn't it? Because the edge is almost where we were decades ago, but we're putting the control back in the hands of consumers. So it's an interesting flip and I wonder if with the edge, we can really enhance this acceleration of product development its efficiency, this frictionless system in which we live in. And also, I've heard you say hybrid a few times John. >> Yeah. >> Is hybrid going to be the future of the world no matter what industry you're in? >> Hybrid is everything now. So it's, we're the hybrid cube, we've got hybrid cloud. >> Exactly. >> You got hybrid telco, because now you've got the confluence of online and offline coming together. >> Yeah. >> That is critical dynamic, and you seeing it. Like virtual reality for instance, now you seeing things, I know you guys are doing some great work at your company around creating experiences that are virtual. >> Exactly. >> You got, like Roblox went public recently. >> Yeah. >> Metaverse is a good time to be in that business because experiential human relations are coming. So I think that's going to be powered by 5G, you know, gamers. So all good stuff, Chloe, great to be with you here in theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> And we're looking forward to seeing your main stage. >> Great. >> And then we're going to send it back to the studio, Adam and the team, we're waiting for DR to arrive here in Cloud City and this is theCUBE, from Cloud City back to you, Adam in the studio.

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 special coverage sponsored by AWS global partner network. >>Welcome everyone to the cube live covering AWS reinvent 2020. I'm your host Rebecca Knight. Today. We are joined by Joshua Virgin. He is the general manager at AWS outposts. Thanks so much for coming on the cube. Joshua, >>Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. >>It's great to have you, so tell our viewers a little bit about AWS, AWS outposts. >>Oh sure. It's one of my favorite subjects, obviously. So outposts is a service from AWS that allows you to use the same tools, technology, API APIs, programming interfaces that you do in the cloud, but install this and run it on your own premises or in a co-location facility. So it really extends the reach of AWS to far more locations than you could otherwise use it. >>So what are some of the advancements, uh, this year >>It's, it's been an amazingly busy year, even under unprecedented kind of circumstances where we've tried to turn the crank really hard and deliver value for our customers. We increased the number of countries you could order outposts in up to 51 countries. You can now connect outpost to all 22 AWS regions and our gov cloud regions, everything outside of China. And we delivered 15 new services or incremental features, including a S3 on outposts, which was the top thing that customers asked for, but also our application load balancer, Alasta cash, our relational database service RDS. Uh, you know, there's probably more than I'm missing here, but, um, you know, and we're definitely not slowing down in that regard. 2021 will probably be an even bigger year. >>So tell us a little bit about the, the response from customers since the launch of AWS outpost last year. What are, what are you hearing? >>Yeah, I mean, we're, we're hearing a lot, uh, I think we've been pleasantly surprised by the, the breadth and the depth of the customer use cases. One of the biggest things we heard from people was, you know, the, the outposts are great, but it's a, it's a full rack of compute or many racks of compute in some cases and storage, you know, their locations that people wanted to put it in that were smaller where their space constrained, maybe a restaurant or a factory floor or a small medical facility, uh, you know, a telco like a cell site. And so what we did based on that is something that we actually just announced in Andy's keynote. Uh, just a few days ago here, which is the new small form factor outposts that are one you and two use size, uh, servers. It's about the size of one or two pizza boxes stacked on top of each other. >>So that's even going to make outposts available to even more use cases, uh, you know, early on, uh, we kind of said to ourselves that it's important to kind of give people that consistent experience wherever they might need the compute and the storage and the other services. And so I've been, I've been really pleasantly surprised, as I mentioned earlier, by how many people have talked to us. We have customers like Phillips healthcare. They are, uh, they're bringing their medical imaging solution to outposts and it allows them to kind of modernize the way they deliver services to hospitals and medical research centers around the world. Something that really wouldn't be possible without having AWS everywhere. >>And that is much, much needed today. Um, tell us a little bit about more about this year in particular, you said it yourself at the beginning of our conversation, this is an unprecedented year for so many different reasons. How has the COVID-19 pandemic effected AWS outposts and how your team interacts with customers and, and gets your job done? >>Yeah, we, I think we have some unique challenges in that regard, obviously, as I mentioned earlier, AWS outposts are installed in a co-location facility or on a customer's own premises in a data center, you know, other things like that. So obviously we have to get our technicians out there to roll them in and hook them up to your network and, you know, to get them powered up. So that means that we are complying with, uh, COVID restrictions. And as I mentioned, 51 different countries. So there was even an install earlier this year at a mining location, uh, you know, far outside the U S where we had to get technicians working with, uh, local technicians from the customer following COVID guidelines, wearing protective gear, and actually installing the outpost, uh, you know, using kind of satellite conductivity and phones to phone home, and talk to us during the installation of course, cause it's not hooked up yet. So those are just kind of examples of the, the links to which we'll go to make sure that, of course we're safe, the customers are safe, but that they can kind of continue to modernize their application portfolio and get benefits from the outposts. >>And what are you hearing from clients and customers in terms of how they're thinking about their technology needs now and in the coming year? >>Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. I mean, it, it really varies by market segment. So you have customers like Ericsson and Telefonica. They're going to be using outpost to, uh, kind of run their 5g packet core technology, Abe it's, it's gotta be run at the edge right there, telcos, they need to minimize latency single digit milliseconds, or you might have a customer like Lockheed Martin. And what they've told us is they have projects that are subject to government contracts and regulations. And not only do they have of course compliance regimes, like fed ramp that they need to be aware of, but there's data residency requirements. So whether they're deploying in the United States or, you know, with our allies all around the world, the compute and the storage, they need to run in specific locations. So now outposts are going to be a key, uh, advancement and kind of a key differentiator for them in how they deliver services to their customers and still meet those data residency or compliance requirement. >>Joshua, tell our viewers more about AWS outpost ready? >>Oh, that's a, it's another thing I'm really glad you mentioned. So the outposts ready program, these are solutions from our APN and our Amazon AWS partner network that are, uh, validated and following our best practices on AWS outposts. They're certified to work and, you know, they're generally available to customers. And so it's a program where, you know, ISV and SAS providers can ensure that the technology that they provide that this third-party technology is going to work in the outpost environment. And there's, there's something about outposts that I think makes this, uh, a differentiator and uniquely valuable when I mentioned kind of that consistent hybrid experience. When you think about how outposts are deployed, you know, in a customer's data center, maybe alongside other technology they're already using. And so customers say, look, these AWS services are great, but I already use a variety of third party technology maybe from Veritas or trend micro Palo Alto networks Convolt size sense, PagerDuty, pure storage NetApp, or the, you know, the list is actually pretty extensive of what people are already using. >>And so they've said, you know, I do plan on using AWS services, but I also don't want to give up, uh, you know, what my team is already familiar with. So can you make sure that's going to work for me, whether I'm using it in the region or on the AWS outposts. And so the, the, the interest in kind of demand for this, both from customers and the enthusiasm from the partners has been off the charts. We started the program in just September, which is not that long ago, and we had 32 partners. And, uh, as of today we have an additional, uh, additional 25 partners, right? It's 57 partners, total 64 certified solutions. So that's a lot of momentum and just kind of a, a short amount of time. And I'm really happy that we can deliver that to the customer. >>So it does, it's already showing tremendous momentum. How do you think about it in terms of the primary benefits that it gives to customers and how it helps customers and partners, >>You know, in order to qualify, the solution has to be tested and validated upon, uh, against a bunch of, uh, criteria that we have very specific technical criteria, security requirements, operational, and, you know, they're, they're supported for customers with clear deployment guidelines. So, you know, the customers can kind of think of this as a guarantee that we're not just saying maybe this could work, but, but this will work. If you're already using it, it's going to continue to work in a way that's familiar to you. And again, that's important that consistent hybrid experience, whether you're using a solution from a third party or from AWS, whether you're using it in the region or on a local zone or in a wavelength zone, and some of our other kind of innovative infrastructure deployments or using it on an outpost, no matter where you're using it, it has to work the same way. >>And so this is something that customers have said, I want to be able to get up and running quickly. We had a customer riot games, uh, th they're the maker of league of legends, but also when they were launching their new game, Valerie hunt, uh, in, in June of 2020, they deployed outposts in four different locations to kind of ensure a level playing field in terms of latency and what they told us, uh, you know, very much like the service ready program is they were able to get up and running in just a matter of days once the outpost was deployed. And it's because we gave them those same API APIs, that same tooling. So I think that's really important for people and, you know, I hope we can continue to deliver on that promise. >>So to close this out here, I want you to look into your crystal ball and think ahead, 12 and 24 months, when you know, fingers crossed, things are back to somewhat more normal. Uh, what's in store for AWS outposts. >>Yeah. I mean, we're going to deliver on what we announced here at reinvent, which has the new small form factor outposts. And I think what we're going to continue to do is listen to customers. We develop outposts from the very beginning because customer said, could, could you deploy outposts in our, in our data center or, sorry, can you deploy AWS? And our data center didn't have a name back then. And so that's really the hallmark of AWS. You know, somewhere around 90% of our roadmaps are based on what customers tell us they want. And the other 10% is when we kind of look around the corner and hopefully delight people with something they didn't even know they needed. And I really hope for my team and that that's what 2021 and 2022 brings is more countries, more services, more value, more compliance, certifications, you know, all the things that people tell us they want. We're going to keep turning the crank as hard as we can. And delivering that as quickly as possible >>With the trademark Amazon customer delight. Yes, absolutely. Excellent. Well, Joshua, Virgin, thank you so much for coming on the cube. It was a pleasure having you. >>It was a pleasure talking to you. Thank you very much. >>I'm Rebecca Knight for more of the cubes coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 stay tuned.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 Special coverage sponsored by A. W s Global Partner Network. Hello. And welcome back to the cubes Live coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. It's virtual this year. Normally, were there in person doing the interviews, getting the signal from the noise. I'm John for your host. And where the cube virtual Got a great guest here. Aidan McDonald, Program manager, Justice through code the center of justice at the Columbia University. Um, this is a great story, Aiden. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate you taking the time to join me. >>Thanks so much for having me, John. >>So first of all talk about the mission of justice through code. This is such an awesome program. It really is impactful. It's one of those examples where, you know, people want to change the world. This is one. You can actually do it. And with code, take us through the mission. >>Yeah, So I think to understand the mission here, you have to understand a little bit about the problem, right? So the United States has, uh, 5% of the world's population, 25% of the global prison population. When people come home from prison, they're confronted with the reality that it's just very difficult to find jobs right. We have unemployment rates that are stratospherically higher than for the general population. And so, at the core of what we're doing in our mission is really to provide a pathway to career track employment for formerly incarcerated individuals to help support them and their families, and also to begin to change the negative stereotypes that air attached to the formerly incarcerated. >>It's an upwardly mobile mindset growth mindset. Also, there's new skills, always hard to do that, given the environmental conditions, what skills are you guys delivering? Take us through how it works. Give us a feel for kind of the skill sets and what gets what happens. >>Yeah, so we focused the program kind of in two distinct ways. So we have the technical skills aspect of the curriculum and the interpersonal skills. So as far as the technical skills go, we teach a version of a course that's taught to current Columbia MBA students eso that is set up. We teach the fundamentals of programming python, what we call phase one of the program. Then we move on to a P I S and data analysis. And then from there we do a Capstone software project. And for that project, groups of two or more students come together. Really? They conceptualize the design on day execute on building this project. And during that phase, of course, we actually pair students with mentors who are season software engineers from many of the top tech companies in the US and then in terms of the story in terms of the interpersonal skills, um, you know, we really focus on the skills that are necessary to success in the tech workforce s Oh, this is, you know, resumes, cover letters, interviewing skills and also really understanding that for many of our students, they don't have the networks that so maney people are fortunate enough to have that have gone through a traditional educational pathways. We bring in guest speakers from different corporations. Um, and, you know, having the students were quick mentors there really able to start to build that network to support themselves in their career transition when they complete the program. >>You know what's really amazing about what you're doing is and this really is so timing. The timing is perfect. Um, is that with the cloud and the tech scene, where we're at now is you don't you can come out. You can level up pretty quickly with things. In other words, you know, you could have someone go to an Ivy League school and be all the pedigree, and it doesn't matter because the skills now are different. You literally could be a surfing and be a couch potato surfing TV and get online and get an Amazon degree and through educate and and come out, make six figures. I mean, so there is definitely a path here. It's not like it's a slog. It's not like it's a huge leap, so the timing is perfect. We're seeing that across the board. There's more empty jobs, opening cybersecurity, cloud computing administration and with land in all these cool services, it's just gonna get easier. We hear that we see that clearly. What are some of the examples can you share of the graduates? What have they gone on to do? You mentioned some of the big tech companies. Take us through that that tipping point when the success kicks in. >>What s so you know, as I mentioned, one of the really integral parts of our program is this mentorship, right? So students finished the program. They often continue to work on their final projects, um, in conjunction with their mentors and then really focused during that time period on developing the skill sets that they'll need to have entering into junior level software development roles a tech companies For some of our students, this means, um, they've actually found out through the course of the class that they prefer front end web development, and they start working on JavaScript and full stack. And a few of our students have gone on to work it a or enter into apprenticeships that major tech companies, um, in those roles. And then we also have students who are focused on continuing in their development of their technical skill set with Python s. So we have some students who have actually entered into the Columbia University I t department on a big project. They're working on other students that have worked with freelance Web development agencies and projects really have a very diverse, talented group of students. And so from that we see that Everybody has different interests and definitely no one specific pathway but many successful pathways. >>How is Amazon Web services helping you guys? They contributing? They're giving you credits. What's their role here? >>Yeah, so they've provided kind of their expertise and support to the program. Just really excited to be collaborating with them on really looking at, How do we take this program to scale? Right. So we know that this is a problem that affect so many Americans, right? There's 77 million Americans currently with a criminal record. And so, um, you know, with the barriers to employment that come from having been incarcerated, I came to this work because I spent four years incarcerated for my own involvement in the marijuana industry in California Prior toe legalization. And so, you know, I saw a kind of these challenges, right? Firsthand of what it's like to try to get a job. And so, you know, we're just very invested in collaborating with AWS again. Thio bring this program to scale so we can really help uplift the communities that have been impacted by mass incarceration. >>It's interesting you talk about your personal experience, talk about this stigma that comes with that and how this breaks through that stigma. And this is really not only is a self esteem issues up this Israel, you could make more money. You have a career and literally the difference between going down or up is huge. Talk about the stigma and how this program changes the lives of the individual. >>Yeah, I think one important thing Thio consider hearing before understanding is this statement right? Is that unemployment or employment should say is the number one predictor of recidivism. Right? So we see that for people that have really jobs, they don't go back to prison on DSO. You know, we're just so invested in working on that and in terms of the stigma, uh, you know, it's just so prevalent, right? I can think through myself. Before I had going thio to prison, I had started to businesses. I was actually accepted. Thio go to Columbia University when I got out and I would apply the landscaping jobs, couldn't get to the final round, and the job offer would be rescinded, right? I mean, just this automatic sense of this person is not to be trusted because they have a history of incarceration. And so what we're really working on doing with our students is first redefining what people think it's possible, right? I saw this myself coming home from prison. The constant messaging is your life is over. You're never going to accomplish anything of meaning and so just kind of accept your lot on DSO. At first, we really focus on that with students in terms of sharing stories of success. Other people that we know that have taken this pathway on been really looking at providing leadership development. So when our students do enter into these companies, they're really able to service leaders and for people to understand that while you may have these assumptions because of depictions of people that have been incarcerated in the media, the end of they formerly incarcerated people, our brothers, sisters, family members and really deserve a chance in life. >>Yeah, And I got to say, you know, as someone who loves technology and been, uh, computer science when his early days, you know, there was a ladder, you have to have a requisite level now. I mean, you literally could be six weeks in and be fluent on Cloud Computing Administration as three bucket configurations. I mean, there are so many things that so many opportunities if you have some intelligence and some drive you're in, I mean, it's just Z pretty right? It's right there. It's great. It's attainable. It's not a fantasy, it's it's doable. And programs like yours are awesome. My hat's off to you for doing that. Thanks for sharing. >>Definitely. Thank you so much for having me >>final question before we go, How does people get involved? Can you share a minute? Give a plug for what you guys are doing? How do I get involved? How do I give support? Take a minute to >>get? Definitely. I mean, I think at the core like the most important thing that anybody can dio right is to look within the organizations that they work and work at and find out what your fair chance hiring practices are and see if if there's an opportunity to hire our students or other formerly incarcerated students. E think it also were very engaged, as I mentioned in our mentorship program s so people can confined US center for Justice that, uh, Colombia dot e d u on board, you know reach out, tow us about the mentorship program and really begin toe talk about this and share the stories of those who have succeeded and provide support Thio other people that will be returning home. >>All right. And thank you very much. Just a fur coat. Check it out. Columbia University 18 McDonald, Program manager. Thanks for joining us. I'm John for here in the Cube Cube Coverage Cube. Virtual coverage of reinvent 2020. Thanks for watching.

>>from >>around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. Special coverage sponsored by AWS Global Partner Network >>Right. Welcome, everyone to the Cube. Live covering aws reinvent 2020. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. Today we're joined by Joshua Virgin. He is the general manager at AWS Outpost. Thanks so much for coming on the Cube. Joshua, >>thank you for having me. It's great to be here. >>Well, it's great to have you So tell our viewers a little bit about aws out AWS Outpost. >>Sure, it's the one of my favorite subjects, obviously. So outpost is a service from AWS that allows you to use the same tools technology ap ice. You know, programming interfaces that you do in the cloud, but install this and run it on your own premises or in a co location facility. So it really extends the reach of A W S two far more locations than you could otherwise use it. >>So what are some of the advancements this year? >>It's been an amazingly you know, busy year, even under unprecedented kind of circumstances, where we've tried to turn the crank really hard and deliver value for our customers. We increase the number of countries you could order outposts in up to 51 countries. You can now connect outpost all 22 AWS regions and or govcloud regions everything outside of China. On we delivered 15 new services or incremental features, including S three on outpost, which was the top thing that customers asked for. But also our application load balancer, elastic cash are relational database service RDS. You know, there's probably more that I'm missing here, but, you know, and we're definitely not slowing down in that regard. 2021 will probably be an even bigger year. >>So tell us a little bit about the response from customers since the launch of a W s outpost last year. What are you hearing? >>Yeah, I mean, we're hearing a lot. I think we've been pleasantly surprised by the breadth and the depth of the customer use cases. One >>of the >>biggest things we heard from people was, you know, the the outposts are great, but it's a it's a full rack of compute or many racks of compute in some cases in storage, you know, their locations that people wanted to put it in that were smaller where their space constrained. Maybe a restaurant or a factory floor or ah, you know, small medical facility. You know, a telco like a cell site. And and so what we did, based on that is something that we actually just announced and Andy's keynote just a few days ago here, which is the new small form factor outposts that are one you and to you size servers. It's about the size of one or two pizza boxes stacked on top of each other. So that's even going to make outposts available toe even Mawr use cases. Uh, you know, early on we kind of said to ourselves that it's important to kind of give people that consistent experience wherever they might need the compute and storage and the other services. And so I've been I've been really pleasantly surprised, as I mentioned earlier by how many people have talked to us. We have customers like Philips Healthcare. They are. They're bringing their medical imaging solution toe outposts, and it allows them to kind of modernize the way they deliver services, the hospitals and medical research centers around the world, something that really wouldn't be possible without having A W s everywhere, >>and that is much, much needed today. Um, tell us a little bit about Maura. About this year in particular. You said it yourself at the beginning of our conversation. This is an unprecedented year for so many different reasons. How has the cove in 19 pandemic affected AWS outpost and how your team interacts with customers and get your job done? >>Yeah, we I >>think we have >>some unique, you know, challenges in that regard. Obviously, as I mentioned earlier, a W s outposts are installed in a co location, facility or on a customer's own premises in a data center. You know, other things like that. So obviously we have to get our technicians out there toe, roll them in and hook them up to your network and, you know, to get them powered up. So that means that we are complying with, uh, covert restrictions. And as I mentioned 51 different countries. So there was even an install earlier this year at a mining location, you know, far outside the U. S. Where we had to get technicians working with, uh, local technicians from the customer following Kobe guidelines wearing protective gear and actually installing the outpost. You know, using kind of satellite connectivity and phones, toe phone home and talk to us during the installation, of course, because it's not hooked up yet. So those were just kind of examples of the lengths to which will go to make sure that, of course, we're safe. The customers were safe, but that they can kind of continue to modernize their application portfolio and get benefits from the outpost. >>And what are you hearing from clients and customers in terms of how they're thinking about their technology needs now and in the coming year? >>Yeah, that's a That's a great question. I mean, it really varies by market segment. So you have customers like Cisco and Ericsson and Telefonica. They're gonna be using Outpost Thio kind of run their five g packet core technology. It it's got to be run at the edge right there. Telcos. They need to minimize Leighton, see single digit milliseconds, or you might have a customer like Lockheed Martin, And what they've told us is they have projects that are subject to government contracts and regulations. And not only do they have, of course, compliance regimes like Fed ramp that they need to be aware of. But there's data residency requirements. So whether they're deploying in the United States or, you know, with our allies all around the world, the compute in the storage that they need to run in specific locations. So now outposts are going to be a key advancement and kind of a key differentiator for them in how they deliver services to their customers and still meet those data residency or compliance requirements. >>Joshua, tell our viewers more about AWS Outpost ready? >>Oh, that zits. Another thing. I'm really glad you mentioned. So the Outpost Ready program. These are solutions from our a Pienaar Amazon AWS partner Network that are validated in following our best practices on AWS outposts. They're certified toe work and you know they're generally available to customers. And so it's a program where, you know, I SVs and saz providers can ensure that the technology that they provide this third party technology is going to work in the outpost environment. And and there's there's something about outpost that I think makes this, uh, differentiator and uniquely valuable. When I mentioned kind of that consistent hybrid experience. When you think about how outposts are deployed, you know, in a customer's data center, Mike. Maybe alongside other technology they're already using. And so customers say, Look, these AWS services are great, but I already use a variety of, you know, third party technology, maybe from Veritas or Trend Micro Palo Alto Networks. Con vault sigh since pager duty Pure storage Netapp. You know, the list is actually pretty extensive of what people are already using. And so they said, you know, I do plan on using AWS services, but I also don't want to give up. You know what what my team is already familiar with, So can you make sure that's gonna work for me, whether I'm using it in the region or on the AWS outposts? And so the interest and kind of demand for this both from customers and the enthusiasm from the partners has been off the charts. We started the program in just September, which is not that long ago, and we had 32 partners, and as of today we have an additional, uh, additional 25 partners, right? It's 57 partners, total 64 certified solutions so that that's a lot of momentum in just kind of, ah, short amount of time. And I'm really happy that we can deliver that to the customers >>so it doesn't. It's already showing tremendous momentum. How do you think about it in terms of the primary benefits that it gives to customers and how it helps customers and partners? >>Yeah, I think, you know, in order to qualify, the solution has to be tested and validated upon against a bunch of criteria that we have very specific technical criteria, security requirements operational and you know, they're they're supported for customers with clear deployment guidelines. So you know, the customers can kind of think of this as a guarantee that we're not just saying maybe this could work, but but this will work. If you're already using it, it's going to continue to work in a way that's familiar to you and and again, that's important. That consistent hybrid experience, whether you're using a solution from a third party or from AWS, whether you're using it in the region or on a local zone or in a wavelength zone, some of our other, you know, kind of innovative infrastructure deployments or using it on outpost, no matter where you're using it, it has to work the same way. And so this is something that customers have said. I want to be able to get up and running quickly. We had a customer riot games. They're the maker of league of Legends. But also when they were launching their new game, Valerie Int, in June of 2020 they deployed outpost in four different locations to kind of ensure a level playing field in terms of latency. What they told us, you know, very much like this service ready program is they were able to get up and running in just a matter of days once the outpost was deployed. And it's because we gave them those same a p I s that same tooling. So I think that's really important for people. And, you know, I hope we can continue to deliver on that promise. >>So the closest out here, I want you to look into your crystal ball and think ahead 12 and 24 months when you know, fingers crossed things are back to somewhat more normal. What? What's in store for AWS Outpost? >>Yeah, I mean, we're going to deliver on what we announced here at reinvent, which is the new small form factor outposts on. I think what we're going to continue to do is listen to customers. We developed outpost from the very beginning because customers said Could could you deploy outposts in our in our data center or Sorry, can you deploy eight of us? And our data center didn't have a name back then. And so that's really the hallmark of AWS, you know, somewhere around 90% of our road maps or based on what customers tell us they want, then the other 10% is when we kind of look around the corner and hopefully delight people with something they didn't even know they needed. And I really hope for my team. And that that's what 2021 2022 brings is, you know, more countries, more services, more value, more compliance certifications. You know, all the things that people tell us they want. We're going to keep turning the crank as hard as we can and delivering that as quickly as possible >>with the trademark Amazon customer delight. >>Yes, absolutely >>excellent. Well, Joshua Virgin. Thank you so much for coming on the Cube. It was a pleasure having you. >>That was a pleasure talking to you. Thank you very much. >>I'm Rebecca night for more of the cubes. Coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. Stay tuned. >>Yeah.

>>from around the globe. >>It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel and AWS. Yeah. Hello and welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. It's virtual this year. Normally, were there in person doing the interviews, getting the signal from the noise. I'm Sean for your host. And where the cube virtual Got a great guest here. Aidan McDonald, Program manager, Justice through code, the center of justice at the Columbia University. Um, this is a great story, Aiden. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate you taking the time to join me. >>Thanks so much for having me, John. >>So first of all, talk about the mission of justice through code. This is such an awesome program. It really is impactful. It's one of those examples where, you know, people want to change the world. This is one. You can actually do it. And with code, take us through the mission. >>Yeah, so I think to understand the mission here, you have to understand a little bit about the problem, right? So the United States has 5% of the world's population, 25% of the global prison population when people come home from prison, they're confronted with the reality that it's just very difficult to find jobs right. We have unemployment rates that are stratospherically higher than for the general population. And so, at the core of what we're doing in our mission is really to provide a pathway to career track employment for formerly incarcerated individuals to help support them and their families, and also to begin to change the negative stereotypes that air attached to the formerly incarcerated. >>It's an upwardly mobile mindset growth mindset. Also, there's new skills always hard to do that right. Given the environmental conditions. What skills are you guys delivering? Take us through how it works. Give us a feel for kind of the skill sets and what gets what happens. >>Yeah, so we focused the program kind of in two distinct ways. So we have the technical skills aspect of the curriculum and the interpersonal skills. Soas faras. The technical skills go. We teach a version of a course that's taught to current Columbia MBA students eso that is set up. We teach the fundamentals of programming python in what we call phase one of the program. Then we move on to a P I s and data analysis. And then from there we do a Capstone software project. And for that project, groups of two or more students come together. Really? They conceptualize the design on day execute on building this project. And during that phase, of course, we actually pair students with mentors who are season software engineers from many of the top tech companies in the US And then in terms of the story in terms of the interpersonal skills, um, you know, we really focus on the skills that are necessary to success in the tech workforce s Oh, this is, you know, resumes, cover letters, interviewing skills and also really understanding that for many of our students, they don't have the networks that so maney people are fortunate enough to have that have gone through a traditional educational pathway. So we bring in guest speakers from different corporations. Um, and you know, having the students work with mentors there really able to start to build that network to support themselves in their career transition when they complete the program. >>You know what's really amazing about what you're doing is, and this really is so timing The timing is perfect. Um, is that with the cloud and the tech scene, where we're at now is you don't you can come out. You can level up pretty quickly with things. In other words, you know, you could have someone go to an Ivy League school and be all the pedigree, and it doesn't matter because the skills now are different. You literally could be a surfing and be a couch potato surfing TV and get online and get an Amazon degree and through educate and and come out, make six figures. I mean, so there is definitely a path here. It's not like it's a slog. It's not like it's a huge leap, so the timing is perfect. We're seeing that across the board. There's more empty jobs, opening cybersecurity, cloud computing administration, and with land in all these cool services, it's just gonna get easier. We hear that we see that clearly. What are some of the examples can you share of the graduates? What have they gone on to do? You mentioned some of the big tech companies take us through that, that tipping point when the success kicks in? >>Yeah, so you know, as I mentioned one of the really integral parts of our program. Is this mentorship? Right? So students finished the program. They often continue to work on their final projects, um, in conjunction with their mentors and then really focused during that time period on developing the skill sets that they'll need to have entering into junior level software development roles a tech companies For some of our students, this means, um, they've actually found out through the course of the class that they prefer front end web development and they start working on JavaScript and full stack. And a few of our students have gone on to work it a or enter into apprenticeships that major tech companies, um, in those roles. And then we also have students who are focused on continuing in their development of their technical skill set with Python s. So we have some students who have actually entered into the Columbia University I T department on a big project. They're working on other students that have worked with freelance Web development agencies and projects, um, really have a very diverse, talented group of students. And so from that we see that everybody has different interests and definitely no one specific pathway, but many successful pathways. >>How is Amazon Web services helping you guys? They contributing? They're giving you credits. What's their role here? >>Yeah, so they've provided kind of their expertise and support to the program. Just really excited to be collaborating with them on really looking at, How do we take this program to scale? Right. So we know that this is a problem that affect so many Americans, right? There's 77 million Americans currently with a criminal record. And so, um, you know, with the barriers to employment that come from having been incarcerated, I came to this work because I spent four years incarcerated for my own involvement in the marijuana industry in California Prior toe legalization. And so, you know, I saw kind of these challenges right firsthand of what it's like to try to get a job. And so, you know, we're just very invested in collaborating with AWS again. Thio bring this program to scale so we can really help uplift the communities that have been impacted by mass incarceration. >>It's interesting you talk about your personal experience, talk about this stigma that comes with that and how this breaks through that stigma and this is really not only is a self esteem issues up this Israel, you could make more money. You have a career and literally the difference between going down or up is huge. Talk about the stigma and how this program changes the lives of the individual. >>Yeah, I think one important thing Thio consider hearing before understanding is this statement, right? Is that, um, unemployment or employment should say is the number one predictor of recidivism. Right. So we see that for people that have really jobs, they don't go back to prison on dso Um you know, we're just so invested in working on that and in terms of the stigma, um, you know, it's just so prevalent, right? I could think through myself. Before I had gone thio to prison, I had started to businesses. I was actually accepted. Thio go to Columbia University when I got out and I would apply the landscaping jobs, couldn't get to the final round, and the job offer would be rescinded, right? I mean, it's just this automatic sense of this person is not to be trusted because they have a history of incarceration And so what we're really working on doing with our students is first redefining what people think it's possible, right? I saw this myself coming home from prison. The constant messaging is your life is over. You're never going to accomplish anything of meaning and so just kind of accept your lot on DSO. At first, we really focus on that with students in terms of sharing stories of success. Other people that we know that have taken this pathway on been really looking at providing leadership development. So when our students do enter into these companies, they're really able to service leaders and for people to understand that while you may have these assumptions because of depictions of people that have been incarcerated in the media, the end of they formerly incarcerated people, our brothers, sisters, family members and really deserve a chance in life. >>Yeah, And I got to say, you know, as someone who loves technology and been, uh, computer science when his early days, you know, there was a ladder, you have to have a requisite level now. I mean, you literally could be six weeks in and be fluent on Cloud Computing Administration as three bucket configurations. I mean, there are so many things that so many opportunities if you have some intelligence and some drive you're in, I mean, it's just Z pretty right? It's right there. It's great. It's attainable. It's not a fantasy, it's it's doable. And programs like yours are awesome. My hat's off to you for doing that. Thanks for sharing. >>Definitely. Thank you so much for having me >>final question Before we go, How does people get involved? Can you share a minute? Give a plug for what you guys are doing? How do I get involved? How do I give support? Take a minute to >>get? Definitely. I mean, I think at the core like the most important thing that anybody can dio right is to look within the organizations that they work and work at and find out what your fair chance hiring practices are and see if if there's an opportunity to hire our students or other formerly incarcerated students. E think also were very engaged, as I mentioned in our mentorship program s so people can confined US center for Justice that, um, Colombia dot e d u on bond, you know, reach out, tow us about the mentorship program and really begin toe talk about this and share the stories of those who have succeeded and provide support Thio other people that will be returning home. >>All right. And thank you very much. Just a fur coat. Check it out. Columbia University 18 McDonald, Program manager. Thanks for joining us. I'm John for here in the Cube Cube Coverage Cube. Virtual coverage of reinvent 2020. Thanks for watching.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube covering Google Cloud. Next on Air 20. Hi, I'm Stew Minimum And and this is the Cube's coverage of Google Cloud next 20 on air, Of course. Last year we were all in person in San Francisco. This year it's an online experience. It's actually spanning many weeks and this week when we're releasing the Cube interviews, talking about application modernization, happy to welcome back program two of our Cube alumni. Chris Well, I've got Aparna Sinha, Uh, who is the director of product management, and joining her is Pali Bhat, who's the vice president of product and design, both with Google Cloud Poly. Welcome back. Thanks so much for joining us. >>Thank you. Good to be here. >>Well, so it goes without saying it. That 2020 has had quite a lot of changes. Really affect it. Start with you. You know, obviously there's been a lot of discussion is what is the impact of the global pandemic? The ripple in the economy on cloud. So I would love to hear a little bit. You know what you're hearing from your customers. What? That impact has been on on you and your business. >>Yes to thank thank you for asking as I look at our customers, what's been most inspiring for me to see is how organizations and the people in those organizations are coming together to help each other during this unprecedented event. And one of the things I wanted to highlight is, as we all adjust to this sort of new normal, there are two things that I keep seeing across every one of our customers. Better operation efficiency, with the focus on cost saving is something that's a business imperative and has drawn urgency. And the second bit is an increased focus on agility and business innovation. In the current atmosphere, where digital has truly become gone from being one of the channels being D channel, we're seeing our customers respond by being more innovative and reaching their customers in the way that they want to be rich. And that's been, for me personally, very inspiring to see. And we turned on Google Cloud to be a part of helping our customers in this journey in terms of our business itself. We're seeing tremendous momentum around our organization business because it plays directly into these two business imperatives around operational efficiency, cost saving and, of course, business innovation and agility. In Q two of 2020 we saw more than 100,000 companies use our application modernization platform across G ke and those cloud functions Cloud Run and our developers tools. So we've been, uh, just tagged with the response of how customers are using our tools in order to help them run their businesses, operate more efficiently and be more innovative on behalf of their customers. So we're seeing customers use everything from building mission critical applications who then securing, migrating and then operating our services. And we've also seen that customers get tremendous benefits. We've seen up to a 35% increase simply by using our own migration tools. And we've also seen it up to 75% improvement to all of the automation and re platform ing that they can do with our monetization platform. That's been incredible. What I do want to do. Those have a partner chime in on some of the complexity that these customers are seeing and how we're going about trying to address that >>Yes, eso to help our customers with the application modernization journey. Google Cloud really offers three highly differentiated capabilities. Us to the first one is really providing a consistent development and operations experience, and this is really important because you want the same experience, regardless of whether you're running natively in Google Cloud or you're running across clouds or you're running hybrid or you're running at the edge. And I think this is a truly unique differentiator off what we offer. Secondly, we really give customers and their developers industry leading guidance. And this is particularly important because there's a set of best practices on how you do development, how you run these applications, how you operate them in production for high reliability, a exceptional security staff, the stature and for the maximum developer efficiency on. And we provide the platform and the tooling to do that so that it can be customized to it's specific customers needs and their specific place on that modernization journey. And then the third thing on and I think this is incredibly important as well is that we would ride a data driven approach, a data driven optimization and benchmarking approach so that we can tell you where you are with regard to best practice and then help you move towards best practice, no matter where you're starting. >>Yeah, well, thank you, Aparna and Polly definitely resonates with what we're hearing. You know, customers need to be data driven. And then there's the imperative Now that digital movement Pali last year at the show, of course, Antos was, you know, really the talk of the conference years gone by. We know things move really fast, so if you could, you know, probably don't have time to get all of the news, but share with us the updates what differentiated this year along from a new standpoint, >>Yeah, So we've got tremendous set off improvements to the platform. And one of the things that I wanted to just share was that our customers as they actually migrate on to onto the cloud and begin the modernization journeys in their digital transformation programs. What we're seeing over and over is those customers that start with the platform as opposed to an individual application, are set up for success in the future. The platform, of course, is an tos where your application modernization journey begins. In terms of updates, we're gonna share a series off updates in block post, etcetera. I just want to highlight a few. We're sharing their availability off Antos for their middle swathe things that our customers have been asking about. And now our customers get to run on those on Prem and at the edge without the need for a hyper visor. What this does is helps organizations minimize unnecessary overhead and ultimately unlock all of the new cloud and edge use case. The second bit is we're not in the GF our speech to text on prem capability, but this is our first hybrid AI capability. So customers like Iron Mountain get to use hybrid AI, so they have full control of the infrastructure and have control off their data so they can implement data residency and compliance while still leveraging all of Google Cloud AI capabilities. Third services identity again. This extends existing identity solutions so that you can seamlessly work on and those workloads again. This is going to be generally available for on premise customers and better for Antos on AWS, and you're going to see more and more customers be able to leverage their existing identity investments while still getting the consistency that Anton's provides across environments. In the last one that I like to highlight is on those attached clusters, which lets customers bring any kubernetes conforming cluster on Toronto's and still take advantage of the advanced capabilities that until provides like declarative configurations and service automation. So one of the customers I just want to call out is Cold just built it. Entire hybrid cloud strategy on Anton's Day began with the platform first, and now we're seeing a record number of customers on Cold Start camaraderie. Take advantage of Mantel's tempting. With Macquarie Bank played, there's a number of use cases. I am particularly excited about major league baseball. I'm a big fan of baseball, and Major League Baseball is now using and those for 2020 season and all of the stadium across, trusting a large amount of data and gives them the capability to get those capabilities in stadiums very, really acceptable. All of those >>Okay, quick, quick. Follow up on that and those attached clusters because it was one of the questions I had last year. Google Cloud has partnerships with VM Ware for what they're doing. You know, Red Hat and Pivotal also is part of the VM Ware families, and they have their own kubernetes offering. So should I be thinking of this as a management capability that's similar to like what? What Andrew does Or maybe as your arca, Or is it just a kind of interoperability piece? How do we understand how these multiple kubernetes fit together? >>Yeah. So what we've done with Antos has really taken the approach that we need to help our customers are made and manage the infrastructure to specifically what Antos attach clusters gives our customers is they can have any kubernetes cluster as long as it's kubernetes conformance, they can benefit from all of the things that we provide in terms of automation. One of the challenges, of course, is you know, those two is configuring these very, very large instances in walls. A lot of handcrafting today we can provide declarative configuration. So you automate all of that. So think of this as configures code I think of this is infrastructure scored management scored. We're providing that service automation layer on top of any kubernetes conforming cluster with an tools. >>Great. Alright, uh, it's at modernization weeks, so Ah, partner, maybe bring us in aside. You were talking about your customers and what their what they're doing to modernize what's new that they should be aware of this year. >>Yeah, so So, First of all, you know, our mission is really to accelerate innovation in every organization through making their developers more productive as well as automating their operations. And this is something that is resonating even more in these times. Specifically, I think the biggest news that we have is really around, how we're going to help companies get started with the application modernization so that they can maximize the impact of their modernization efforts. And to do this, we're introducing what we're calling. The Google Cloud Application Modernization program or a Google camp for short on Google Camp has three pieces. It has an assessment, which is really data driven and fact based. It's a baseline assessment that helps organizations understand where they are in terms of their maturity with application modernization. Secondly, we give them a blueprint. This is something that is, is it encapsulates a specific set of best practices, proven best practices from development to security to operations, and it's something that they can put into practice and implement immediately. These practices, they cover the entire application lifecycle from writing the code to the See I CD to running it and operating it for maximum reliability and security. And then the third aspect, of course, is the application platform. And this is a modern platform, but also extremely extensible. And, as you know, it spans across clouds on this enables organizations to build, run and secure and, of course, manage both legacy as well as new applications. And the good news, of course, here is you know, this is a time tested platform. It's something that we use internally as well. For our Cloud ML services are being query omni service capability as well as for apogee, hot hybrid and many more at over time. So with the Google campus really covered all aspects of the application lifecycle. And we think it's extremely important for enterprises to have this capability. >>Yeah, so a party when you talk about the extent ability, I would expect that Google Cloud Run is one of the options there to help give us a bridge to get to server list. If that's where customers looking to my right on >>that, that's rights to the camp program provides is holistic, and it brings together many of our capabilities. So Cloud Code Cloud See I CD Cloud Run, which is our server less offering and also includes G ki e and and those best practices. Because customers for their applications, they're usually using multiple platforms. Now, in the case of Cloud Run, in particular, I want to highlight that there's been a lot of interest in the serverless capability during this last few months. In particular, I think, disproportionate amount of interest and server lists on container Native. In fact, according to the CNC F 2020 State of Cloud Native Development Report, you might have seen that, you know, they noted that 2.7 million cloud native developers are using kubernetes and four million are using serverless architectures or cloud functions, and that about 60% of back and developers are now using containers. So this just points to the the usage that was happening already and is now really disproportionately accelerated. In our case, you know, we've we've worked with several customers at the New York State Department and Media Market. Saturn are two that are really excellent stories with the New York State Department. They had a unemployment claims crisis. There was a lot. Ah, volume. That was difficult for their application to handle. And so we worked with them to re architect their application as a set of micro services on Google Cloud on our public sector team of teamed up with them to roll out a new unemployment website in record time. That website was able to handle the 1600% increase in Web traffic compared to a typical week. And this is very much do, too, the dev ops tooling that we provided and we worked with them on and then with Media market Saturn. This is really an excellent example in EMEA based example of a retailer that was able to achieve an eight X increase in speed as well as a 40% cost reduction. And these are really important metrics in these times in particular because for a retailer in the Cove in 19 crisis, to be able to bring new applications and new features to the hands of their customers is ultimately something that impacts their business is extremely valuable. >>Yeah, you think you bring up a really great point of partner when I traditionally think of application modernization. Maybe I've been in the space to long. But it is. Simplicity is not. The first thing that comes to mind is probably pointed out right now. There's an imperative people need to move fast, so I want to throw it out to both of you. How is Google's trying to make sure that, you know, in these uncertain times that customers can move fast and that with all these technology options that it could be just a little bit simpler? >>Yeah, I think I just, uh you know, start off by saying the first thing we've done is build all of our services from the ground up with automation, simplicity and agility in mind. So we've designed for development teams and operations teams be able to take these solutions and get productive with them right away. In addition, we understand that some of our largest customers actually need dedicated program where they can actually assess where they are and then map out a plan for incremental improvement so they can get on their journey to application modernization. But do it with the highest our way. And that was Google camp that apartment talked about ultimately at Google Cloud. Our mission, of course, is to accelerate innovation. Every organization toe hold developer velocity improvements, but also giving them the operation automation that we talked about with that application modernization platform. So we're very excited to be able to do this with every organization. >>Great. Well, Aparna, I'll let you have the final word Is the application modernization week here at Google Cloud. Next online, you can have the final take away for customers. >>Well, thank you, cio. You know, we are extremely passionate about developers on. We want to make sure that it is easy for anyone, anywhere to be able to get started with development as well as to have a path to, uh, accelerated path to production for their applications. So some of what we've done in terms of simplicity, which, as you said is extremely important in this environment, is to really make it easy to get started on. Some of the announcements are around build packs and the integration of cloud code are plug ins to the development environment directly into our serverless environment. And that's the type of thing that gets me excited. And I think I'm very passionate about that because it's something that applies to everyone. Uh, you know, regardless of where they are or what type of person they are, they can get started with development. And that can be a path to economic renewal and growth not just for companies, but for individuals. And that's a mission that we're extremely passionate about. Google Cloud >>Apartment Poly Thank you so much for sharing all the updates. Congratulations to the team. And definitely great to hear about how you're helping customers in these challenging times. >>Thank you for having us on. >>Thank you. So great to see you again. >>Alright. Stay tuned for more coverage from stew minimum and, as always, Thank you for watching the Cube. Yeah, yeah.

>> Introducer: From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto and in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hi everybody this is Dave Volante. Welcome to the special CUBE Conversation. I'm really excited to invite in my mentor and friend. We go way back. Fred Moore is here. He's the president of Horizon Information Strategies. We going to talk about managing data in the zettabyte era. Fred, I think when we first met, we were talking about like the megabyte era. >> Right, exactly. I think back then we had, you know, maybe 10 bytes in our telephone and one on the wristwatch, you know, but now you can put a whole data center in a single cartridge of tape and take off. Things that really changed. >> It's pretty amazing. And of course, for those who don't know Fred, he was the first a systems engineer at Storage Tech. And as I said, somebody who taught me a lot in my early days, of course he's very famous for the term that everybody uses today. Backup is one thing, recovery is everything. And Fred just wrote, you know, this fantastic paper. He's done this year after year after year. He's just dug in, he's a clear thinker, strategic planner with a technical bent in a business bent. You're like one of those five tool baseball players, Fred. But tell me about this paper. Why, did you write it? >> Well, the reason I wrote that is there's been so much focus in the last year or so on the archive component of the storage hierarchy. And the thing that's happening, we're generating data lots faster than we're analyzing it. So it's piling up being unanalyzed and sitting basically untapped for years at a time. So that has posed a big challenge for people. The other thing that got me deeper into this last year was the Hyperscale market. They are, those people are so big in terms of footprint and infrastructure that they can no longer keep everything on disk. It's just economically not possible. The energy consumption per disk, the infrastructure costs, the frequency of, you know, taking a disc out every three, four or five years for just for replacement, has made it very difficult to do that. So Hyperscale has gone to tape in a big way, and it's kind of where most of the tape business in the future is going to wind up in these Hyperscale businesses. >> Right. >> We know tape doesn't exist in the home. It doesn't exist in a small data center. It's only a large scale data center technology, but that whole cosmos led me into the archive space and in a need for a new archive technology beyond tape. >> So, I want to set up the premise here. Just going to pull this out of your paper. It says a 60% of all data is archival, and could reach 80% or more by 2024, making archival data by far the largest storage class. And given this trajectory, the traditional storage hierarchy paradigm is going to to need to disrupt itself. And quickly we're going to talk about that. That really is the premise of your paper here, isn't it? >> It is, you know, to do all this with traditional technologies is going to get very painful for a variety of reasons. So the stage is set for a new tier and a new technology to appear in the next five years. Fortunately, I'm actually working with somebody who is after this in a big way, and in a different way than what you and I know. So I think there is some hope here that we can redefine and really add a new tier down at the bottom. You see it kind of emerging on that picture of the deep archive tier it's. Beginning to show up now and it's, you know, infinite storage. I mean, if you look at major league sports, the world series and Superbowl, you know, that data will never be deleted. It'll be here forever. It'll be used periodically based on circumstances. >> Yeah, well, we've got that pyramid chart up here. I mean, you invented this chart, essentially. At least you were the first person that ever showed it to me. I honestly think that you first created this concept where you had a high performance tier, and a high cost per bit, and then an archive tier. Maybe it wasn't this granular, you know, back in the '70s and '80s? But it's constantly been changing with different media types and different use cases. >> You know, you're right. I mean, and you all know this because you know, when storage deck introduced the nearline architecture, nearline set in between online and offline storage, we called it nearline, and trademarked that term. So that was the tape library concept to move data from offline status to online status, with a robotic library. So that brought up that third tier online, nearline, and offline, but you're right. This pyramid has evolved and morphed into several things. And, you know, I keep it alive. Somebody said, I'll have a pyramid on my tombstone instead of my name when I go down. (both chuckles) But it's really the heart and soul of the infrastructure for data. And then out of this comes all the management and security, the deletion, the immutable storage concepts, the whole thing starts here. So it's like your house, you got to have a foundation, then you can build everything on top of it. >> Well, and as you pointed out in your paper, a minute ago, it always comes down to economics. So I want to bring up the sort of 10 year expected cost of ownership the TCO for the three levels you got all disk, you got all cloud and you got LTO and you got the different aspects of the cost. The purple is always the biggest piece of cost. It's the labor costs. But of course, you know, in cloud, you've got the big media cost because they've done so much automation. I wonder if you could take us through this slide, what are the key takeaways there? >> Well, you know the thing that hurts here with all these technologies is, as you can see up on top up there, what the key issues are with this and the staff and personnel. So the less people you have to manage data, the better off you are. And then, you know, it's pretty high for disk compared to a lot of things to do on desk, but lack of manage a lot of, you know, sadly what you and I had to deal with years ago and provision kind of, I mean, a lot of this stuff is just labor intensive. The further you get, the further down the pyramid and you also get less labor intensive storage. And that helps then you get a lower cost for energy and cost of ownership. The TCO thing is kind of taking on a new meaning. I hate to put up a TCO chart in some regards, because it's all based on what your input variables are. So you can decide something different, but we've tried to normalize all kinds of pricing and come up with everything. And the cloud is a big question for most people as to how does it stack up. And if you don't ever touch the data in the cloud, you know, the price comes way down. If you want to start moving data in and out of the cloud, you're going to have to ante up in a big way like that. But, you know we're going to see dollar a terabyte storage prices down at the bottom of this pyramid here in the next five years. But hey, you can get down to four or five terabyte with drives media in libraries tape, just entire flash and certainly higher than that. But you know, we're going to have the race to a dollar a terabyte, total TCO cost here in 2025. >> So when Amazon announced, they just announced a glacier. Everybody said, okay, what is that? Is that tape is that, you know, this spun down disk, cause it took a while to get it back. But you're kind of seeing that tape technology as you said, really move into the Hyperscale space and that's going to accommodate this massive, you know, lower part of the pyramid, isn't it? >> Exactly. Yeah. And we don't have a spin down disk solution today. I was actually on the board of a company that started that called Copay and years ago, right up here near Boulder. >> You watch him (both chuckles) You absolutely right. And a few other people that, you know also, but the spin down disk never made it. And you know, you can spin up and down on a desk on your desktop computer, but doing that in a data center, then on a fiber channel drive never made it. So we don't have a spin down disk to do that. The archive space is kind of dominated by very high capacity disc and then tape. And most of the archive data in the world today, unfortunately sits on display. It's not used and spinning seven by 24, three 65 and not touch much. So that's a bad economic move, but customers just found that easier to handle by doing that then going back to tape. So we've got a lot of data stored in the wrong place from a total economics point of view. >> But the Hyperscalers are solving this problem, or they're not through automation. And, you know, you referenced storage, tiering, really trying to take the labor cost out. How are they doing? Are they doing a good job? >> They've done really well taking the labor costs down, I mean, they have optimized every screw, nut and bolt in the 42 chassis that you could imagine to make it as clean as possible to do that. So they've done a whole lot to bring that cost down, but still the magnitude of these data centers, we're going to finish the year 2020 with about 570 Hyperscale data centers. So it's going right now around the world. You know, each one of these things is 350 400,000 square feet, and up of race wars space. And the economics just don't allow you to keep putting inactive data on spinning disk. We don't have to spin down disk, tape You know, I feel like the only guy in the industry that says this sometimes, but, you know, tapes had a, you know, a renaissance. That people don't appreciate in terms of reliability, throughput, you know, tapes three orders of reliability higher than disc right now. And most people don't know this. So tape's viable, the Hyperscalers see that. And read one Hyperscalers or you know, by over a million pieces of LTO tape last year alone. Just to handle this, you know, be the pressure valve to take all of this inactive stuff off of the gigantic disc farms that they have. >> Well, so let's talk about that a little bit. So you just try to keep it simple. You've got, you know, flash disk and tape. It feels like disc is getting squeezed. We know what flash has done in terms of eating into disc. And you see in that, in the storage market generally, it's soft right now. And I've posited that a lot of that is the headroom that data centers have with flash, is they don't have to buy spindles anymore for performance reasons. And the market is soft. Only pure is showing consistent growth, and ends up a little bit, cause because of mainframe, you've got Dell popping back and forth, but generally speaking, the primary storage market is not a great place to be right now, all the actions and sort of secondary storage and data protection. And so just going to get squeezed, and you mentioned tape, you said that if your only person talking about it, but you said in your paper, you know, it's sequential. So time to first bite is, is sometimes problematic, but you can front end a tape with cash. You can use algorithms and, you know, smart scans and to really address that problem. And dramatically lower the cost. Plus you could do things like you tell me Fred, you're the technologists here, but you're going to have multiple heads things that you can't necessarily do in a hermetically sealed disc drive. >> (chuckles) You can. And what you just described is called the active archive layer in the pyramid. So when you front end a tape library with a disk array for a cash buffer, you create an active archive and that data will sit in there three or four or five days before it gets demoted based on inactivity. So, you know for repetitive use and you're going to get dislike performance for tape data, and that's the same cash in concept that deserve systems had 30 years ago. So that does work and the active archive has got a lot of momentum right now. There's right here near me, where I live in Boulder. We have the Active Archive Alliances headquarters, and I get to do their annual report every year. And this whole active archives thing is a big way to make and overcome that time, the first bike problem that we've had in tape. And we'll have for quite a while. >> In your paper, you've talked about some of the use cases and workloads and you laid out, you know basically taking the pyramid and saying, okay based on the workload, some certain percentage should be up at the top of the pyramid for the high performance stuff. And of course lower for the, you know, the less, you know, important traditional workloads, et cetera. And it was striking to see the Delta between annual, the highest performance we had 70% , I think was up in the top of the pyramid versus, you know the last use case. So in you're talking about what it costs to store a zettabyte in services is that if I talk about 108 million at the high end versus a about 11 or 12 million, so huge Delta 10 X Delta between the top and the bottom based on those, you know allocations based on the workload. >> Yeah, I tried to get at the value of tiered storage based on your individual workload in your business. So I looked at five different workloads, the top one that you referenced. That was in there at 108 million, you know, is the HPC market. I mean, when I visited a few of the HPC people, you know, their DOD agencies in many cases, you know that and I threw the pyramid up. The first thing they would say our permanents inverted. You know (chuckles), all of our archive data is about 10%. You know, we were all flash as much as we can. And we have a little bit archived, we're in constant. Simulation and compute mode and producing results like crazy from the data. So we do an IO, bring in maybe a whole file at a time and compute for minutes before we come up with an answer. So just the reverse. And then I got to look into all the different workloads talking to people, and that's how we develop these profiles. >> So let's pull up this future of the storage hierarchy, was again kind of of talks to the premise of your paper. Walk us through this like, what changes should we be expecting, and you got air gap in here. We're going to, I'm going to ask you about remastering and lifespan, but take us through this. >> Yeah, you know, the traditional chart that you had up on the first big year had four tiers, you know, two disturbs and solid state at the top. And then the big archive tier, which is kind of everything falling down into tape at this point. But you know again, tape has some challenges. You know time to first bite and sequential access on. And then when we couple using tape or disc as an archive, most of that data that's archival is captured as unstructured data. So we don't have, we don't have tags, we don't have metadata, we don't have indices, and that has led to the movement for object storage, to be a primary, maybe in the next five years, the primary format in store archived data, because it's got all that information inside of it. So now we have a way to search things and we can get to objects, but in the interim, you know, it's hard to find and search out things that are unstructured and, you know, most estimates would say 80% of the world's data is at least that much is unstructured. So archives are hard to find once you store it, there's one storing is one thing, retrieving it is another thing. And that's led to the formation of another layer in the story tier. It's going to be data that doesn't have to be remastered or converted to a new technology. in the case of the disc, every three, four or five years or tape drive every eight, maybe 10 years take large lost. Kate Media can go 30 years, but with all new modern tape media, but unfortunately, you know, the underlying drive doesn't go back that far, you can't support that many different versions. So the media life is actually longer than it needs to be. So the stage is set for a new technology to appear down here to deal with this archives. So it'll have faster access will not need to be remastered every five or 10 years, but you'll have, you know, a 50 year life in here. And I believe me, I've been looking for a long time to be able find something like this. And, you know we have a shot at this now, and I'm actually working with the technology that could pull this off. >> Well, it's interesting also as well, you calling out the air gap and the chart we go back to our mainframe guesses, is not a lot we haven't seen before, you know, maybe data D duplication, but you know, the adversary has become a lot more sophisticated. And so air gaps and, you know, ransomware on everybody's mind today, but you've sort of highlighted three layers of the pyramid that are actually candidates for that air gapping. >> Yeah. The active archive up there, of course, you know, with the disk and tape combined, then just pure tape. And then this new technology, which can be removable. You know, when you have removability you create an air gap. little did we know when you and I met that removability would be important to take. We thought we were trying to get rid of the Chevy truck access method, and now without electricity with a terrorist attack and pandemic or whatever. The fastest way to move data is put it on a truck and get it out of town. So that has got renewed life right now. Removability much to my shock from where we started. >> You talked about remastering and you said it's a costly labor intensive process that typically migrates previously archived data to new media every five to 10 years. First of all, explain why you have to do that and how a data center operators can solve that problem. >> Yeah. And let's start with data where most of it sits today on described, you know it describes useful life is four to five years before it either fails or is replaced. That's pretty much common now. So then they have to start replacing these things. And that means you have to copy, you know, read the data off the disk and write it somewhere else, big data move. And as the years go by that amount of data to revamp or gets bigger and bigger. So, I mean, you can do the math as you well know, you want to move, you know, 50 petabytes of data. It's going to take several weeks to do that electronically. So this gets to be a real time consuming effort. So most data centers that I've seen will keep about one fifth of their disposal every year migrating to a new technology, just kind of rolling forward as they go like that rather than do the whole thing every five years. So that's the new build in the disc world. And then for tape the drive stay in there longer, you know the LTO family drives a good read. You know two generations back from the current one that's been there. They cut that off a year ago. They'll go back to something like this soon. But you know, you can go into 10 years on a tape drive. The media life because of very unfair right media, which was already oxidized the last 30 years or more. The old media metal particle was not oxidized. So, you know, the oxidized flake, the particles would fall off people will say shit. I've had this in here eight years, you know, and it's kind flake it I put it back in. So that didn't work well. But now that we had various Verite Media, it was all oxidized, the media lives skyrocket. So that was the whole trick with tape to get into something that was preoxidized before time could cause it to decay. So the remastering is a lot, is less on tape by two to one to three to one, but still when you've got petabytes, maybe an exabyte sitting on tape in the future, that's going to take a long time to do that. >> Right. >> So remastering you'd love a way to scale capacity without having to continue to move the data to something new ever so often. >> So my last question is you've , you know, you went from a technical role into a strategic planning role, which of course the more technical you are in that role, the better off you're going to be. You don't understand that the guardrails, but you've always had a sort of telescope in the industry and you close the paper and it's kind of where I want to end here on, you know, what's ahead. And you talk about some of the technologies that obviously have legs, like three D NAND and obviously magnetic storage. You got optical in here, but then you've got all these other ones that you even mentioned, you know, don't hold your breath waiting for these multilayer photonics and dedic DNA. What class media, holographic storage, quantum storage we do a lot about quantum. What should we be thinking about and expecting as observers as to, you know, new technologies that might drive some innovation in the storage business? >> Well, I've listed the ones that are in the lab that have any life at all, right on this paper. So, you know can kind of take your pick at what goes on there. I mean, optical disk has not made it in the data center. We talked about it for 35 years. We invested in it in storage deck and never saw the light of day. You know, optical disk has remained an entertainment technology throughout the last 35 years. And the bigger rate is very low compared to data center technology. So, you know optical would have to take a huge step going forward. We got a lot of legs left in the solid state business. That's really active SSB, the whole nonvolatile memory spaces. Probably not 45% of the total disc shipments in terms of units, from what it was at it's high and in 2010. Unbelievable though. You know, in disc shipment 650 million drives a year announced just under 400, 35,400. So flashes has taken this stuff away, like crazy. Tape shouldn't be taking just away, but the tape industry doesn't do a very effective job of marketing itself. Most people still don't know what's going on with tape. They're still looking out of the roof, still looking out of the rear view mirror at a tape, as opposed to the front windshield. We see all the new things that have happened. So, you know they have bad memories of taping the past load stretch, edge damage tape, wouldn't work a tear or anything like that. It was a problem. Oh, that's pretty well gone away now. In a moderate tape is a whole different ball game, but most people don't know that. So, you know tapes going to have to struggle with access time and sequential reality. They've done a few things to come over excess time and the order request now to take the optimizer based on physical movement on the tape that can take out 50% of your access time for multiple requests on a cartridge. The one on here that's got the most promise right now would be a version of a multilayer photonic storage, which is. I would say sort like optical, but, you know, with data center, class characteristics, multi-layer recording capability on that random access, which tape doesn't have. And, you know, I would say that's probably the one that you would want to take some look at going forward like this. The others are highly specular. You know, we've been talking about DNA since we were kids. So we don't have a DNA product out here yet. You know, it's access times eight hours. It's probably not going to work for us. That's your, that's not your deep archive anymore. That's your time capsule storage. >> Yeah, right. >> Lock the earth. So, I mean, I think you kind of see what's here. I mean, the chances are it's still going to be the magnetic technologies tape disc, and then the solid state number and stuff. >> Right. >> But these are the ones that I'm tracking and looking at, trying to have worked with a few of the companies that are in this. Future list and I'd love to see something breakthrough out there, but it's like, we've always said about a holographic storage. For example, you know, there's been more written about it than there's ever been written on it. (both chuckles) >> Well, the paper's called Reinventing Archival Storage. You can get it on your website I presume Fredhorizon.com >> Yep, absolutely. >> Awesome. >> Fred Moore, great to see you again. Thanks so much for coming on the CUBE. >> My pleasure, Dave. Thanks a lot. Great job. >> All right. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for the CUBE. 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