>> Introducer: From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto and in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hi everybody this is Dave Volante. Welcome to the special CUBE Conversation. I'm really excited to invite in my mentor and friend. We go way back. Fred Moore is here. He's the president of Horizon Information Strategies. We going to talk about managing data in the zettabyte era. Fred, I think when we first met, we were talking about like the megabyte era. >> Right, exactly. I think back then we had, you know, maybe 10 bytes in our telephone and one on the wristwatch, you know, but now you can put a whole data center in a single cartridge of tape and take off. Things that really changed. >> It's pretty amazing. And of course, for those who don't know Fred, he was the first a systems engineer at Storage Tech. And as I said, somebody who taught me a lot in my early days, of course he's very famous for the term that everybody uses today. Backup is one thing, recovery is everything. And Fred just wrote, you know, this fantastic paper. He's done this year after year after year. He's just dug in, he's a clear thinker, strategic planner with a technical bent in a business bent. You're like one of those five tool baseball players, Fred. But tell me about this paper. Why, did you write it? >> Well, the reason I wrote that is there's been so much focus in the last year or so on the archive component of the storage hierarchy. And the thing that's happening, we're generating data lots faster than we're analyzing it. So it's piling up being unanalyzed and sitting basically untapped for years at a time. So that has posed a big challenge for people. The other thing that got me deeper into this last year was the Hyperscale market. They are, those people are so big in terms of footprint and infrastructure that they can no longer keep everything on disk. It's just economically not possible. The energy consumption per disk, the infrastructure costs, the frequency of, you know, taking a disc out every three, four or five years for just for replacement, has made it very difficult to do that. So Hyperscale has gone to tape in a big way, and it's kind of where most of the tape business in the future is going to wind up in these Hyperscale businesses. >> Right. >> We know tape doesn't exist in the home. It doesn't exist in a small data center. It's only a large scale data center technology, but that whole cosmos led me into the archive space and in a need for a new archive technology beyond tape. >> So, I want to set up the premise here. Just going to pull this out of your paper. It says a 60% of all data is archival, and could reach 80% or more by 2024, making archival data by far the largest storage class. And given this trajectory, the traditional storage hierarchy paradigm is going to to need to disrupt itself. And quickly we're going to talk about that. That really is the premise of your paper here, isn't it? >> It is, you know, to do all this with traditional technologies is going to get very painful for a variety of reasons. So the stage is set for a new tier and a new technology to appear in the next five years. Fortunately, I'm actually working with somebody who is after this in a big way, and in a different way than what you and I know. So I think there is some hope here that we can redefine and really add a new tier down at the bottom. You see it kind of emerging on that picture of the deep archive tier it's. Beginning to show up now and it's, you know, infinite storage. I mean, if you look at major league sports, the world series and Superbowl, you know, that data will never be deleted. It'll be here forever. It'll be used periodically based on circumstances. >> Yeah, well, we've got that pyramid chart up here. I mean, you invented this chart, essentially. At least you were the first person that ever showed it to me. I honestly think that you first created this concept where you had a high performance tier, and a high cost per bit, and then an archive tier. Maybe it wasn't this granular, you know, back in the '70s and '80s? But it's constantly been changing with different media types and different use cases. >> You know, you're right. I mean, and you all know this because you know, when storage deck introduced the nearline architecture, nearline set in between online and offline storage, we called it nearline, and trademarked that term. So that was the tape library concept to move data from offline status to online status, with a robotic library. So that brought up that third tier online, nearline, and offline, but you're right. This pyramid has evolved and morphed into several things. And, you know, I keep it alive. Somebody said, I'll have a pyramid on my tombstone instead of my name when I go down. (both chuckles) But it's really the heart and soul of the infrastructure for data. And then out of this comes all the management and security, the deletion, the immutable storage concepts, the whole thing starts here. So it's like your house, you got to have a foundation, then you can build everything on top of it. >> Well, and as you pointed out in your paper, a minute ago, it always comes down to economics. So I want to bring up the sort of 10 year expected cost of ownership the TCO for the three levels you got all disk, you got all cloud and you got LTO and you got the different aspects of the cost. The purple is always the biggest piece of cost. It's the labor costs. But of course, you know, in cloud, you've got the big media cost because they've done so much automation. I wonder if you could take us through this slide, what are the key takeaways there? >> Well, you know the thing that hurts here with all these technologies is, as you can see up on top up there, what the key issues are with this and the staff and personnel. So the less people you have to manage data, the better off you are. And then, you know, it's pretty high for disk compared to a lot of things to do on desk, but lack of manage a lot of, you know, sadly what you and I had to deal with years ago and provision kind of, I mean, a lot of this stuff is just labor intensive. The further you get, the further down the pyramid and you also get less labor intensive storage. And that helps then you get a lower cost for energy and cost of ownership. The TCO thing is kind of taking on a new meaning. I hate to put up a TCO chart in some regards, because it's all based on what your input variables are. So you can decide something different, but we've tried to normalize all kinds of pricing and come up with everything. And the cloud is a big question for most people as to how does it stack up. And if you don't ever touch the data in the cloud, you know, the price comes way down. If you want to start moving data in and out of the cloud, you're going to have to ante up in a big way like that. But, you know we're going to see dollar a terabyte storage prices down at the bottom of this pyramid here in the next five years. But hey, you can get down to four or five terabyte with drives media in libraries tape, just entire flash and certainly higher than that. But you know, we're going to have the race to a dollar a terabyte, total TCO cost here in 2025. >> So when Amazon announced, they just announced a glacier. Everybody said, okay, what is that? Is that tape is that, you know, this spun down disk, cause it took a while to get it back. But you're kind of seeing that tape technology as you said, really move into the Hyperscale space and that's going to accommodate this massive, you know, lower part of the pyramid, isn't it? >> Exactly. Yeah. And we don't have a spin down disk solution today. I was actually on the board of a company that started that called Copay and years ago, right up here near Boulder. >> You watch him (both chuckles) You absolutely right. And a few other people that, you know also, but the spin down disk never made it. And you know, you can spin up and down on a desk on your desktop computer, but doing that in a data center, then on a fiber channel drive never made it. So we don't have a spin down disk to do that. The archive space is kind of dominated by very high capacity disc and then tape. And most of the archive data in the world today, unfortunately sits on display. It's not used and spinning seven by 24, three 65 and not touch much. So that's a bad economic move, but customers just found that easier to handle by doing that then going back to tape. So we've got a lot of data stored in the wrong place from a total economics point of view. >> But the Hyperscalers are solving this problem, or they're not through automation. And, you know, you referenced storage, tiering, really trying to take the labor cost out. How are they doing? Are they doing a good job? >> They've done really well taking the labor costs down, I mean, they have optimized every screw, nut and bolt in the 42 chassis that you could imagine to make it as clean as possible to do that. So they've done a whole lot to bring that cost down, but still the magnitude of these data centers, we're going to finish the year 2020 with about 570 Hyperscale data centers. So it's going right now around the world. You know, each one of these things is 350 400,000 square feet, and up of race wars space. And the economics just don't allow you to keep putting inactive data on spinning disk. We don't have to spin down disk, tape You know, I feel like the only guy in the industry that says this sometimes, but, you know, tapes had a, you know, a renaissance. That people don't appreciate in terms of reliability, throughput, you know, tapes three orders of reliability higher than disc right now. And most people don't know this. So tape's viable, the Hyperscalers see that. And read one Hyperscalers or you know, by over a million pieces of LTO tape last year alone. Just to handle this, you know, be the pressure valve to take all of this inactive stuff off of the gigantic disc farms that they have. >> Well, so let's talk about that a little bit. So you just try to keep it simple. You've got, you know, flash disk and tape. It feels like disc is getting squeezed. We know what flash has done in terms of eating into disc. And you see in that, in the storage market generally, it's soft right now. And I've posited that a lot of that is the headroom that data centers have with flash, is they don't have to buy spindles anymore for performance reasons. And the market is soft. Only pure is showing consistent growth, and ends up a little bit, cause because of mainframe, you've got Dell popping back and forth, but generally speaking, the primary storage market is not a great place to be right now, all the actions and sort of secondary storage and data protection. And so just going to get squeezed, and you mentioned tape, you said that if your only person talking about it, but you said in your paper, you know, it's sequential. So time to first bite is, is sometimes problematic, but you can front end a tape with cash. You can use algorithms and, you know, smart scans and to really address that problem. And dramatically lower the cost. Plus you could do things like you tell me Fred, you're the technologists here, but you're going to have multiple heads things that you can't necessarily do in a hermetically sealed disc drive. >> (chuckles) You can. And what you just described is called the active archive layer in the pyramid. So when you front end a tape library with a disk array for a cash buffer, you create an active archive and that data will sit in there three or four or five days before it gets demoted based on inactivity. So, you know for repetitive use and you're going to get dislike performance for tape data, and that's the same cash in concept that deserve systems had 30 years ago. So that does work and the active archive has got a lot of momentum right now. There's right here near me, where I live in Boulder. We have the Active Archive Alliances headquarters, and I get to do their annual report every year. And this whole active archives thing is a big way to make and overcome that time, the first bike problem that we've had in tape. And we'll have for quite a while. >> In your paper, you've talked about some of the use cases and workloads and you laid out, you know basically taking the pyramid and saying, okay based on the workload, some certain percentage should be up at the top of the pyramid for the high performance stuff. And of course lower for the, you know, the less, you know, important traditional workloads, et cetera. And it was striking to see the Delta between annual, the highest performance we had 70% , I think was up in the top of the pyramid versus, you know the last use case. So in you're talking about what it costs to store a zettabyte in services is that if I talk about 108 million at the high end versus a about 11 or 12 million, so huge Delta 10 X Delta between the top and the bottom based on those, you know allocations based on the workload. >> Yeah, I tried to get at the value of tiered storage based on your individual workload in your business. So I looked at five different workloads, the top one that you referenced. That was in there at 108 million, you know, is the HPC market. I mean, when I visited a few of the HPC people, you know, their DOD agencies in many cases, you know that and I threw the pyramid up. The first thing they would say our permanents inverted. You know (chuckles), all of our archive data is about 10%. You know, we were all flash as much as we can. And we have a little bit archived, we're in constant. Simulation and compute mode and producing results like crazy from the data. So we do an IO, bring in maybe a whole file at a time and compute for minutes before we come up with an answer. So just the reverse. And then I got to look into all the different workloads talking to people, and that's how we develop these profiles. >> So let's pull up this future of the storage hierarchy, was again kind of of talks to the premise of your paper. Walk us through this like, what changes should we be expecting, and you got air gap in here. We're going to, I'm going to ask you about remastering and lifespan, but take us through this. >> Yeah, you know, the traditional chart that you had up on the first big year had four tiers, you know, two disturbs and solid state at the top. And then the big archive tier, which is kind of everything falling down into tape at this point. But you know again, tape has some challenges. You know time to first bite and sequential access on. And then when we couple using tape or disc as an archive, most of that data that's archival is captured as unstructured data. So we don't have, we don't have tags, we don't have metadata, we don't have indices, and that has led to the movement for object storage, to be a primary, maybe in the next five years, the primary format in store archived data, because it's got all that information inside of it. So now we have a way to search things and we can get to objects, but in the interim, you know, it's hard to find and search out things that are unstructured and, you know, most estimates would say 80% of the world's data is at least that much is unstructured. So archives are hard to find once you store it, there's one storing is one thing, retrieving it is another thing. And that's led to the formation of another layer in the story tier. It's going to be data that doesn't have to be remastered or converted to a new technology. in the case of the disc, every three, four or five years or tape drive every eight, maybe 10 years take large lost. Kate Media can go 30 years, but with all new modern tape media, but unfortunately, you know, the underlying drive doesn't go back that far, you can't support that many different versions. So the media life is actually longer than it needs to be. So the stage is set for a new technology to appear down here to deal with this archives. So it'll have faster access will not need to be remastered every five or 10 years, but you'll have, you know, a 50 year life in here. And I believe me, I've been looking for a long time to be able find something like this. And, you know we have a shot at this now, and I'm actually working with the technology that could pull this off. >> Well, it's interesting also as well, you calling out the air gap and the chart we go back to our mainframe guesses, is not a lot we haven't seen before, you know, maybe data D duplication, but you know, the adversary has become a lot more sophisticated. And so air gaps and, you know, ransomware on everybody's mind today, but you've sort of highlighted three layers of the pyramid that are actually candidates for that air gapping. >> Yeah. The active archive up there, of course, you know, with the disk and tape combined, then just pure tape. And then this new technology, which can be removable. You know, when you have removability you create an air gap. little did we know when you and I met that removability would be important to take. We thought we were trying to get rid of the Chevy truck access method, and now without electricity with a terrorist attack and pandemic or whatever. The fastest way to move data is put it on a truck and get it out of town. So that has got renewed life right now. Removability much to my shock from where we started. >> You talked about remastering and you said it's a costly labor intensive process that typically migrates previously archived data to new media every five to 10 years. First of all, explain why you have to do that and how a data center operators can solve that problem. >> Yeah. And let's start with data where most of it sits today on described, you know it describes useful life is four to five years before it either fails or is replaced. That's pretty much common now. So then they have to start replacing these things. And that means you have to copy, you know, read the data off the disk and write it somewhere else, big data move. And as the years go by that amount of data to revamp or gets bigger and bigger. So, I mean, you can do the math as you well know, you want to move, you know, 50 petabytes of data. It's going to take several weeks to do that electronically. So this gets to be a real time consuming effort. So most data centers that I've seen will keep about one fifth of their disposal every year migrating to a new technology, just kind of rolling forward as they go like that rather than do the whole thing every five years. So that's the new build in the disc world. And then for tape the drive stay in there longer, you know the LTO family drives a good read. You know two generations back from the current one that's been there. They cut that off a year ago. They'll go back to something like this soon. But you know, you can go into 10 years on a tape drive. The media life because of very unfair right media, which was already oxidized the last 30 years or more. The old media metal particle was not oxidized. So, you know, the oxidized flake, the particles would fall off people will say shit. I've had this in here eight years, you know, and it's kind flake it I put it back in. So that didn't work well. But now that we had various Verite Media, it was all oxidized, the media lives skyrocket. So that was the whole trick with tape to get into something that was preoxidized before time could cause it to decay. So the remastering is a lot, is less on tape by two to one to three to one, but still when you've got petabytes, maybe an exabyte sitting on tape in the future, that's going to take a long time to do that. >> Right. >> So remastering you'd love a way to scale capacity without having to continue to move the data to something new ever so often. >> So my last question is you've , you know, you went from a technical role into a strategic planning role, which of course the more technical you are in that role, the better off you're going to be. You don't understand that the guardrails, but you've always had a sort of telescope in the industry and you close the paper and it's kind of where I want to end here on, you know, what's ahead. And you talk about some of the technologies that obviously have legs, like three D NAND and obviously magnetic storage. You got optical in here, but then you've got all these other ones that you even mentioned, you know, don't hold your breath waiting for these multilayer photonics and dedic DNA. What class media, holographic storage, quantum storage we do a lot about quantum. What should we be thinking about and expecting as observers as to, you know, new technologies that might drive some innovation in the storage business? >> Well, I've listed the ones that are in the lab that have any life at all, right on this paper. So, you know can kind of take your pick at what goes on there. I mean, optical disk has not made it in the data center. We talked about it for 35 years. We invested in it in storage deck and never saw the light of day. You know, optical disk has remained an entertainment technology throughout the last 35 years. And the bigger rate is very low compared to data center technology. So, you know optical would have to take a huge step going forward. We got a lot of legs left in the solid state business. That's really active SSB, the whole nonvolatile memory spaces. Probably not 45% of the total disc shipments in terms of units, from what it was at it's high and in 2010. Unbelievable though. You know, in disc shipment 650 million drives a year announced just under 400, 35,400. So flashes has taken this stuff away, like crazy. Tape shouldn't be taking just away, but the tape industry doesn't do a very effective job of marketing itself. Most people still don't know what's going on with tape. They're still looking out of the roof, still looking out of the rear view mirror at a tape, as opposed to the front windshield. We see all the new things that have happened. So, you know they have bad memories of taping the past load stretch, edge damage tape, wouldn't work a tear or anything like that. It was a problem. Oh, that's pretty well gone away now. In a moderate tape is a whole different ball game, but most people don't know that. So, you know tapes going to have to struggle with access time and sequential reality. They've done a few things to come over excess time and the order request now to take the optimizer based on physical movement on the tape that can take out 50% of your access time for multiple requests on a cartridge. The one on here that's got the most promise right now would be a version of a multilayer photonic storage, which is. I would say sort like optical, but, you know, with data center, class characteristics, multi-layer recording capability on that random access, which tape doesn't have. And, you know, I would say that's probably the one that you would want to take some look at going forward like this. The others are highly specular. You know, we've been talking about DNA since we were kids. So we don't have a DNA product out here yet. You know, it's access times eight hours. It's probably not going to work for us. That's your, that's not your deep archive anymore. That's your time capsule storage. >> Yeah, right. >> Lock the earth. So, I mean, I think you kind of see what's here. I mean, the chances are it's still going to be the magnetic technologies tape disc, and then the solid state number and stuff. >> Right. >> But these are the ones that I'm tracking and looking at, trying to have worked with a few of the companies that are in this. Future list and I'd love to see something breakthrough out there, but it's like, we've always said about a holographic storage. For example, you know, there's been more written about it than there's ever been written on it. (both chuckles) >> Well, the paper's called Reinventing Archival Storage. You can get it on your website I presume Fredhorizon.com >> Yep, absolutely. >> Awesome. >> Fred Moore, great to see you again. Thanks so much for coming on the CUBE. >> My pleasure, Dave. Thanks a lot. Great job. >> All right. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for the CUBE. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>Live from Denver, Colorado. It's the cube covering com vault go 2019 brought to you by Combolt. >>Welcome to the cube. Lisa Martin with Stu Miniman. We are in Denver, Colorado, specifically Aurora, actually for the fourth annual comm vault. Go. Stu, I'm super excited to be back hosting with you again. Lisa, it's great to be with you our second year doing Convolt go last year. Keith Townsend with here with me and so glad you're here with me because you've got a little bit of background with this company I was with come out 10 years ago. It's scary to think that it's been 10 years that we're at the Gaylord Gaylord Rockies, which is one of their customers, massive conventions that aren't, as you said, the first conference that the Gaylord that probably heard that this, this convention center just opened up a couple of months ago. I think it holds like 1500 people, the 1500 rooms at the hotel and supposedly this is the first large event that they've done and this was planned last year. >>Last year we were in Nashville at the Gaylord the year before. I think they were in DC at the Gaylord and next year I know there'll be at another Gaylord, so definitely putting their customers first. Just like in the keynote this morning they had the state of Colorado opening up the event. We always love to hear a local customer welcoming us and talking about their partnership with the supplier. Absolutely agree with that. The state of Colorado, the statue share the highest number of micro breweries per capita and I don't know about you, I'm not a beer person. I would be super blown away if that, if I was there is the too much choice in beer. It used to be, you know, you'd go in and say, okay, here's the five or 10 beers I like. Now you go in and it's like, all right, there's a hundred new ones. I haven't tried that because they weren't here last time. >>So many beers here, a greater Denver. I've been to Boulder a couple of times. They say if you want to start a microbrewery, there's one that's ready to hand you over a place because they're going out of business. They just churn and go over and everything like that. So yeah, my first time actually hosting an event of the cube here in Colorado. Super excited for that. It's a great locale. And yeah, we're talking about, you know, so Convolt a 20 year old company, a lot of customers, but a lot of new faces. You look, we're going to be talking to the next two days. They run a whole new executive team. We knew this was coming last year. Our final guest in our two days is going to be Al Bunty, who is the CEO, was one of the original 20 years with the company. So we'll, we'll talk about the Baton and some of the changes in some of the things that are, are the same. >>So yeah. Interesting. You mentioned they started things off this morning with the customer at the state of Colorado. I too, like you always love to hear the voice of the customer. And I also really like it when customers talk about the challenges that they had. They talked about the Samsung attack and all of the exposures and vulnerabilities. I love that because that's what happens. We're seeing data protection as a service, the market positive trends in the market. There are a rise in cyber attacks. I love it when customers articulate, yep, nothing is perfect, but here's how working with Combalt we were able to recover quickly from something like that. A lot of big news, you mentioned a lot of new executive leadership. This is Sanjay merchant Donnie's first go. As CEO came in about nine months ago. He's a cube alumni, said we'll get to talk to him later this morning, but he came in after successfully leading puppet through many rounds of millions and venture funding. >>He took puppet worldwide, but he came into a company with declining revenues and one where folks said combat, you've got pressures to find alternative sources of growth. They said three things specifically. One, you need to upgrade your sales force. Two, you need to enhance your marketing, and three, we need to shift gears and expand your market share and there's been a whole bunch of news, not just yesterday, today, but in the last month or so, last few weeks actually where combo is making headway in all three of them. >> At least so right, because you look on paper and you look in the key, the keynote and say we have 20 years of experience. Here's all of the analyst reports that show us as the clear leader in this space. But then you look at it and say, Oh, 2018 to 2019 declining revenues. There are a lot of competitors both as some of the big stalwarts in technology as well as many startups. >>Heck, I'm even seeing the startups now. They're trying to call the last generation of startups that are going after con vault as the legacy. So if you're not fully cloud native microservice sass base architecture, you're the old way. And that's one of the news from Combolt already is they, they've done a couple of what they call Convult ventures. So the first one you were alluding to is they bought Hedvig, which was a software defined storage company. They just bought them back in September. What was their a two 40 $250 million, which was almost half of the cash that Combolt had sitting there. Hedvig company that had been around for a number of years. We're going to have Avinash who's the founder and CEO on the program here. He was on the keynote stage going through the demo. They kind of sat at this interesting line between software defined storage and actually hyperconverged infrastructure because you could in the early days do either storage only or fully converged environments, but massive scale. >>The customer that he talked about was a very large scale deployment. Those large scale deployments are really tough and can be challenging and they're not something that you just deploy everywhere. Unlike the other announcement that Convolt announced is metallic. If you go to metallic.io, they have this new sass based architecture. They built it in months from the ground up from the internal team. Part of me is sitting there saying, okay, wait, if they could do this and you know, six months or nine months or whatever it was, why hadn't they done it before? What has changed what Convolt technology is under there? It's great. It's working, you know, Azure and AWS as well as you can have a local copy in your environment. They call it SAS plus. Um, and we need to understand a little bit more of the technology. So a lot of exciting things. >>Definitely getting awareness, but both metallic and Hedvig they call Convolt ventures. So new areas, areas that they're looking to add some incremental growth. And one of the things Sandra said in his keynote is we want to, you know, rethink primary and secondary storage. So where is Convolt will they start dipping their toe into the primary storage? Does that line blur? We've got HP on the program, you know, NetApp is up on stage with them. They have partnerships. So changing landscape Convolt has long had a strong position in the market, but as things change they want to make sure that they make themselves relevant for the next era. >>Absolutely. And the Hedvig acquisition gives them a pretty significant, a much larger presence in the software defined space. But it also is going to give them a big Tam expansion. We look at metallic as you mentioned, the venture. I want to, I want to break that down. We've got Rob Kelly's, John Colussy, and on a little bit later, what is this Combolt venture, but also giving them, it sounds to me like giving customers in mid market more choice, but one of the things I mentioned that that analysts were saying is, Hey you guys, you gotta, you gotta expand your market share, you really gotta expand marketing. So we're seeing not just the technology announcements with Hedvig for the large scale enterprises of which I think most of their revenue, at least three quarters of combat revenue does come from that large space, metallic for mid market, but also some of the seals, leadership changes that they've made to are really positioning them. New initiatives, new partner initiatives, really focused on the largest global enterprises. We're gonna break some of that down today. So in terms of routes to market, you're seeing a lot of focus on mid-market and enterprise. >>Well, at least 80% of the convulse revenue comes from the partners. So that is hugely important. How does metallic fit in? Will that be as a SAS offering? Will that be direct? Will that go through the channel? Believe it's going to, you know, the channel's going to be able to be enabled. How do all of these pieces go together? One, one note on Hedvig you talk about Tam expansion. Hedwig was not a leader in the market when it comes to where they are. There's a lot of competition there. You know, they were not a, you know, a unicorn that had a road to $1 billion worth of actual revenue there. So they got bought at a very high multiple of what their actual revenue was. And the question was did they just not have the go to market to be able to bring that and maybe Convolt can bring them there where they miss positioned in the market. >>Should they not be really primary storage? Should they go more to secondary storage where partner closely with secondary storage, because I know some of Combolt's competitors did work with Hedvig. I've talked to a number of partners out there that liked Hedvig and was like, Oh it's a nice complimentary offering to what we have, whether they be a hardware or place. So we'll being in Convolt hyper charge that growth. Obviously they've got some smart team, smart team members, have an Ash, came from Amazon and Facebook and his team. But what will this do to accelerate what they're doing? How will there be hit the word but synergies between the two sides of the company. So Sanjay and team really laying out their vision for where they want to take the company and it's challenging to be, we're the trusted, reliable enterprise and we're going to go down to the lower end of the market and we're going to go on all these cool new spaces and everything. So Combalt only has limited resources just like any other company. And how will they maintain and grow their position going forward. >>We are going to hear from a number of their customers do today who been combo customers for 10 plus years. Some of them who have a number of Convolt competitors within, you know, disparate organizations. I love to hear from them, why are you running, you know, comm vault, the backup exec within these different departments. For example. AstraZeneca is one of them. And what makes Combalt in certain departments really ideal. So going to get a good picture of that, but also love to understand from these customers who've been using Combolt for years. Do you see a new combo in 20 in their fiscal year 2020 talked about the leadership changes. As you mentioned, this is a company that's not only 20 years old but at low run. Some stats by you that Sandra Mirchandani shared this morning, they've got 2.8 million. The virtual machines protected, they've got over 700 millions of petabytes. They're protecting in the cloud, 1.6 million servers on and on and on. How is con vault of fiscal year 2020 different and and really poised at this intersection of unified >>in? One of the answers for that that we'll dig into is it's about data. So while con vault does 45 million weekly backup jobs, we used to know backup is something that you just kind of had, but you didn't necessarily use it. Now it's not just having my data and making sure that it's relied on, but how can I leverage that data? It's, you know, data at the core and you know, Sandra said data is the heart of everything they're doing. So coming from puppet, Sanjay knows about dev ops and agile and he's going to bring some of that in. He's brought in a team that's going to infuse some change in the culture and we'll see. I expect Convolt to be moving a little, little faster. They definitely have made a number of changes in the short time that he has already been there and we'll get a little bit of a roadmap as to where we see them going. >>Yeah, there's certainly seems Stu to be moving quickly. You mentioned, you know, Sonjay being nine months metallic. You mentioned also being developed in house in a matter of months, announcing the Hedvig acquisition in September. It closed October 1st there Q2 earnings come out in just a couple of weeks right before Halloween. So it seems like a lot of momentum carrying into the Denver aura area. Is it going to be a trick or a treat? Ooh, I like that as a marketer, I'm jealous that you thought of that and I didn't, but I liked that. We'll go with that all these years on the cube. You gotta you gotta have the snappy comebacks, right? So, Steve, it's gonna be a great day today we are jam packed session interview after interview with combat executives, really dissecting what they're doing, what's new, what's positioning them to really kick the door wide open and really reverse those revenues, taking them positive and really not only meeting the endless expectations, but exceeding them. So I'm looking forward to an action packed two days in Aurora with use to, can't wait. All right, first two minute, man. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube from comm vault. Go 19 we'll be right back with our first guest.

>>live >>from Denver, Colorado. It's the Q covering com vault Go 2019. Brought to you by combo. >>Hey, welcome to the Cube. Lisa Martin in Colorado for CONMEBOL Go 19. Statement. A man is with me this week, and we are pleased to welcome one of combos, longtime customers from the University of Leicester. We have Mark Penny, the systems specialist in infrastructure. Mark. Welcome to the Cube. >>Hi. It's good to be here. >>So you have been a convo customer at the UNI for nearly 10 years now, just giving folks an idea of about the union got 51 different academic departments about five research institutes. Cool research going on, by the way and between staff and students. About 20,000 folks, I'm sure all bringing multiple devices onto the campus. So talk to us about you came on board in 20 ton. It's hard to believe that was almost 10 years ago and said, All right, guys, we really got to get a strategy around back up, talk to us about way back then what? You guys were doing what you saw as an opportunity. What you're doing with combo today, a >>time and the There's a wide range of backup for us. There was no really assurance that we were getting back up. So we had a bit of convert seven that was backing up the Windows infrastructure. There was tyranny storage manager backing up a lot of Linux. And there was Amanda and open source thing. And then there was a LL sorts of scripts and things. So, for instance, of'em where backups were done by creating an array snapshot with the script, then mounting that script into that snapshot into another server backing up the server with calm bolt on the restore process is an absolute takes here. It was very, very difficult, long winded, required a lot of time on the checks. For this, it really was quite quite difficult to run it. Use a lot of stuff. Time we were, as far as the corporate side was concerned it exclusively on tape resource manager, we're using disc. Amanda was again for tape in a different, completely isolated system. Coupled with this, there had been a lack of investment in the data centers themselves, so the network hadn't really got a lot of throughput. This men that way were using data private backup networks in order to keep back up data off the production networks because there was really challenges over bandwidth contention backups on. So consider it over around and so on. If you got a back up coming into the working day defect student So Way started with a blank sheet of paper in many respects on went out to see what was available on Dhe. There was the usual ones it with the net back up, typically obviously again on convert Arc Serve has. But what was really interesting was deed Implication was starting to come in, But at the time, convo tonight just be released, and it had an absolutely killer feature for us, which was client side duplication. This men that we could now get rid of most of this private backup network that was making a lot of complex ISI. So it also did backup disk on back up to tape. So at that point, way went in with six Media agents. Way had a few 100 terabytes of disk storage. The strategy was to keep 28 days on disk and then the long term retention on tape into a tape library. WeII kept back through it about 2013 then took the decision. Disc was working, so let's just do disco only on save a whole load of effort. In even with a take life, you've got to refresh the tapes and things. So give it all on disk with D Duplication way, basically getting a 1 to 1. So if we had take my current figures about 1.5 petabytes of front side protected data, we've got about 1.5 petabytes in the back up system, which, because of all the synthetic fools and everything, we've got 12 months retention. We've got 28 days retention. It works really, really well in that and that that relationship, almost 1 to 1 with what's in the back up with all the attention with plants like data, has been fairly consistent since we went all disc >>mark. I wonder if you'd actually step back a second and talks about the role in importance of data in your organization because way went through a lot of the bits and bytes in that is there. But as a research organization, you know, I expect that data is, you know, quite a strategic component of the data >>forms your intellectual property. It's what is caught your research. It's the output of your investigations. So where were doing Earth Operational science. So we get data from satellites and that is then brought down roars time, little files. They then get a data set, which will consist of multiple packages of these, these vials and maybe even different measurements from different satellites that then combined and could be used to model scenarios climate change, temperature or pollution. All these types of things coming in. It's how you then take that raw data work with it. In our case, we use a lot of HPC haIf of computing to manipulate that data. And a lot of it is how smart researchers are in getting their code getting the maximum out of that data on. Then the output of that becomes a paper project on dhe finalized final set of of date, which is the results, which all goes with paper. We've also done the a lot of genetics and things like that because the DNA fingerprinting with Alec Jeffrey on what was very interesting with that one is how it was those techniques which then identified the bones that were dug up under the car park in Leicester, which is Richard >>Wright documentary. >>Yeah, on that really was quite exciting. The way that well do you really was quite. It's quite fitting, really, techniques that the university has discovered, which were then instrumental in identifying that. >>What? One of the interesting things I found in this part of the market is used to talk about just protecting my data. Yeah, a lot of times now it's about howto. Why leverage my data even Maur. How do I share my data? How do I extract more value out of the data in the 10 years you've been working with calm Boulder? Are you seeing that journey? Is that yes, the organization's going down. >>There's almost there's actually two conflicting things here because researchers love to share their data. But some of the data sets is so big that can be quite challenging. Some of the data sets. We take other people's Day to bring it in, combining with our own to do our own modeling. Then that goes out to provide some more for somebody else on. There's also issues about where data could exist, so there's a lot of very strict controls about the N. H s data. So health data, which so n hs England that can't then go out to Scotland on Booth. Sometimes the regulatory compliance almost gets sidelines with the excitement about research on way have quite a dichotomy of making sure that where we know about the data, that the appropriate controls are there and we understand it on Hopefully, people just don't go on, put it somewhere. It's not because some of the data sets for medical research, given the data which has got personal, identifiable information in it, that then has to be stripped out. So you've got an anonymous data set which they can then work with it Z assuring that the right data used the right information to remove so that you don't inadvertently go and then expose stuff s. So it's not just pure research on it going in this silo and in this silo it's actually ensuring that you've got the right bits in the right place, and it's being handled correctly >>to talk to us about has you know, as you pointed out, this massive growth and data volumes from a university perspective, health data perspective research perspective, the files are getting bigger and bigger In the time that you've started this foundation with combo in the last 9 10 years. Tremendous changes not just and data, but talking about complaints you've now got GDP are to deal with. Give us a perspective and snapshot of your of your con vault implementation and how you've evolved that as all the data changes, compliance changes and converts, technology has evolved. So if you take >>where we started off, we had a few 100 petabytes of disk. It's just before we migrated. Thio on Premise three Cloud Libraries That point. I think I got 2.1 petabytes of backup. Storage on the volume of data is exponentially growing covers the resolution of the instruments increases, so you can certainly have a four fold growth data that some of those are quite interesting things. They when I first joined the great excitement with a project which has just noticed Betty Colombo, which is the Mercury a year for in space agency to Demeter Mercury and they wanted 50 terabytes and way at that time, that was actually quite a big number way. We're thinking, well, we make the split. What? We need to be careful. Yes. Okay. 50 terrorizes that over the life of project. And now that's probably just to get us going. Not much actually happened with it. And then storage system changed and they still had their 50 terabytes with almost nothing in it way then understood that the spacecraft being launched and that once it had been launched, which was earlier this year, it was going to take a couple of years before the first data came back. Because it has to go to Venus. It has to go around Venus in the wrong direction, against gravity to slow it down. Then it goes to Mercury and the rial bolt data then starts coming back in. You'd have thought going to Mercury was dead easy. You just go boom straight in. But actually, if you did that because of gravity of the sun, it would just go in. You'd never stop. Just go straight into the sun. You lose your spacecraft. >>Nobody wants >>another. Eggs are really interesting. Is artfully Have you heard of the guy? A satellite? >>Yes. >>This is the one which is mapping a 1,000,000,000 stars in the Milky Way. It's now gone past its primary mission, and it's got most of that data. Huge data sets on DDE That data, there's, ah, it's already being worked on, but they are the university Thio task, packaging it and cleansing it. We're going to get a set of that data we're going to host. We're currently hosting a national HPC facility, which is for space research that's being replaced with an even bigger, more powerful one. Little probably fill one of our data centers completely. It's about 40 racks worth, and that's just to process that data because there's so much information that's come from it. And it's It's the resolution. It's the speed with which it can be computed on holding so much in memory. I mean, if you take across our current HPC systems, we've got 100 terabytes of memory across two systems, and those numbers were just unthinkable even 10 years ago, a terrible of memory. >>So Mark Lease and I would like to keep you here all way to talk about space, Mark todo of our favorite topics. But before we get towards the end, but a lot of changes, that combo, it's the whole new executive team they bought Hedvig. They land lost this metallic dot io. They've got new things. It's a longtime customer. What your viewpoint on com bold today and what what you've been seeing quite interesting to >>see how convoy has evolved on dhe. These change, which should have happened between 10 and 11 when they took the decision on the next generation platform that it would be this by industry. Sand is quite an aggressive pace of service packs, which are then come out onto this schedule. And to be fair, that schedule is being stuck to waken plan ahead. We know what's happening on Dhe. It's interesting that they're both patches and the new features and stuff, and it's really great to have that line to work, too. Now, Andi way with platform now supports natively stone Much stuff. And this was actually one of the decisions which took us around using our own on Prem Estimate Cloud Library. We were using as you to put a tear on data off site on with All is working Great. That can we do s3 on friend on. It's supported by convoy is just a cloud library. Now, When we first started that didn't exist. Way took the decision. It will proof of concept and so on, and it all worked, and we then got high for scale as well. It's interesting to see how convoy has gone down into the appliance 11 to, because people want to have to just have a box unpack it. Implicated. If you haven't got a technical team or strong yo skills in those area, why worry about putting your own system together? Haifa scale give you back up in a vault on the partnerships with were in HP customer So way we're using Apollo's RS in storage. Andi Yeah, the Apollo is actually the platform. If we bought Heifer Scale, it would have gone on an HP Apollo as well, because of the way with agreements, we've got invited. Actually, it's quite interesting how they've gone from software. Hardware is now come in, and it's evolving into this platform with Hedvig. I mean, there was a convoy object store buried in it, but it was very discreet. No one really knew about it. You occasionally could see a term on it would appear, but it it wasn't something which they published their butt object store with the increasing data volumes. Object Store is the only way to store. There's these volumes of data in a resilient and durable way. Eso Hedvig buying that and integrating in providing a really interesting way forward. And yet, for my perspective, I'm using three. So if we had gone down the Hedvig route from my perspective, what I would like to see is I have a story policy. I click on going to point it to s three, and it goes out it provision. The bucket does the whole lot in one a couple of clicks and that's it. Job done. I don't need to go out, create the use of create the bucket, and then get one out of every little written piece in there. And it's that tight integration, which is where I see benefits coming in you. It's giving value to the platform and giving the customer the assurance that you've configured correctly because the process is an automated in convoy has ensured that every step of the way the right decisions being made on that. Yet with metallic, that's everything is about it's actually tried and tested products with a very, very smart work for a process put round to ensure that the decisions you make. You don't need to be a convoy expert to get the outcome and get the backups. >>Excellent. Well, Mark, thank you for joining Student on the Cape Talking about tthe e evolution that the University of Leicester has gone through and your thoughts on com bolts evolution in parallel. We appreciate your time first to Minutemen. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cue from combo go 19.

>> live from San Francisco, California It's the Q covering the IBM Chief Data Officer Summit brought to you by IBM. >> We're back. You're watching the Cube, the leader in life Tech coverage. My name is Dave Volant Day, and we're covering the IBM Chief Data officer event hashtag IBM CDO is the 10th year that IBM has been running This event on the New Cube has been covering this for the last I'd say four or five years. Beth rottenness here. She's the distinguished engineer and principal data scientist. Cognitive within GTS Large Service's organization within IBM. Bet thanks so much for coming on the Cube. >> Absolutely. Thank you for having me. >> So you're very welcome. So really interesting sort of title. I'm inferring a lot. Um, and you're sexually transforming lives through data and analytics. Talk about your role a little bit. >> So my role is to infuse workforce transformation with cognitive. I typically we go from I think you've heard the ladder to a I. But as we move up that ladder and we can actually >> apply artificial intelligence and NLP, which is a lot of what I'm doing, >> it is it's instrumental in being able to see human beings in a lot more dimensions. So when we classify humans by a particular job role skill set, we often don't know that they have a passion for things like coding or anything else. And so we're really doing a lot more where we're getting deeper and being able to match your supply and demand in house as well as know when we have a demand for someone. And this person almost meets that demand. Based on all the different dimensionality that weaken dio, >> we can >> put them into this specific training class and then allow them to go through that training class so that we can upgrade the entire upscale and reschedule the entire work force. >> So one of the challenges you're working on is trying to operationalize machine intelligence and obviously starts with that training and skill level so well, it's not easy company the size of of I B M E. You're starting the GTS group, which probably has an affinity, at least conceptually, for transformation. That's what you guys do for your clients. So how's that going? You know, where are you in that journey? >> I think that we're in the journey and we're doing really well. I think that a lot of our people and the people who are actually working on the ground, we're talking to our clients every single day. So people on the helped us, they're talking to clients and customers. They understand what that client is doing. They understand the means, the troops, the mores, the language of the customer, of the organization of the customer, in the client, giving those people skills to understand what they can do better. To help solve our client's problems is really what it's all about. So understanding how we can take all of the unstructured data, all of like the opportunity for understanding what skills those people have on the ground and then being able to match that to the problems that our clients and customers are having. So it's a great opportunity. I think, that I've been in GTS my entire career and being an I t. I think that you understand this is where you store or create or, you know, manage all of the data in an entire enterprise organization, being able to enable and empower the people to be ableto upscale and Reese kill themselves so that they can get access to that so that we can do better for our clients and customers. >> So when you think about operations, folks, you got decades of skills that have built up you. D. B A is, you got network engineers, you got storage administrators. You know the VM add men's, you know, Unix. Add men's, I mean and a lot of those jobs. Air transforming clearly people don't want to invest is much in heavy lifting and infrastructure deployment, right? They want to go up the stack, if you will. So my question is, as you identify opportunities for transformation, I presume it's a lot of the existing workforce that you're transforming. You're not like saying, Okay, guys, you're out. What is gonna go retrain or bring in new people? Gonna retrain existing folks? How's that going? What's their appetite for that? Are they eagerly kind of lining up for this? You could describe that dynamic. >> I think the bits on the ground, they're very hungry. Everyone is so, so, so hungry because they understand what's coming on. They listen to the messages, they're ready. We were also in flexing. I'm sure you've heard of the new collar program were influencing a lot of youth as early professional hires. I have 2 16 year olds in the 17 year old on my team as interns from a P Tech program in Boulder, and getting that mix in that diversity is really all what it's about. We need that diversity of thought. We need that understanding of how we can start to do these things and how people can start to reach for new ways to work. >> All right, so I love this top of the cube we've we've covered, you know, diversity, women in tech. But so let's talk about that a little bit. You just made a statement that you need that diversity. Why is it so important other than it's the right thing to do? What's the what's the business effect of bringing diversity to the table? >> I think that would. We're searching for information truth if you want. If you want to go there, you need a wide variance of thought, the white of your variance, the more standard you're me, and it's actually a mathematical theory. Um, so this is This is something that is part of our truth. We know that diversity of thoughts we've been working. I run and sponsor the LGBT Q Plus group. I do women's groups in the B A R G's and then we also are looking at neuro diversity and really understanding what we can bring in as far as like, a highly diverse workforce. Put them all together, give them the skills to succeed. Make sure that they understand that the client is absolutely the first person that they're looking at in the first person that they're using Those skills on enable them to automate, enable them to stop doing those repeatable tasks. And there's so much application of a I that we can now make accessible so that people understand how to do this at every single level. >> So it's a much wider scope of an observation space. You're sort of purposefully organizing. So you eliminate some of that sampling bias and then getting to the truth. As you say, >> I think that in order to come up with ethical and explainable, aye, aye, there's definitely a way to do this. We know how to do it. It's just hard, and I think that a lot of people want to reach for machine learning or neural nets that spit out the feature without really understanding the context of the data. But a piece of data is an artifact of a human behavior, so you have to trace it all the way back. What process? What person who put it there? Why did they put it there? What was that? When we when we look at really simple things and say, Why are all these tickets classified in this one way? It's because when you observe the human operator, they're choosing the very first thing human behaviors put data in places or human behaviors create machines to put data in places. All of this can be understood if we look at it in a little bit of a different way. >> I thought I had was. So IBM is Business is not about selling ads, so there's no one sent to future appropriate our data to sell advertising. However, if we think about IBM as an internal organism, there's certain incentive structures. There's there's budgets, there's resource is, and so there's always incentives to game the system. And so it sounds like you're trying to identify ways in which you can do the right thing right thing for the business right for people and try to take some of those nuances out of the equation. Is that >> so? From an automation perspectively build digital management system. So all the executives can go in a room and not argue about whose numbers are correct, and they can actually get down to the business of doing business. From the bottoms up perspective, we're enabling the workforce to understand how to do that automation and how to have not only the basic tenets of data management but incorporate that into a digital management system with tertiary and secondary and triangulation and correlations so that we have the evidence and we can show data providence for everything that we're doing. And we have this capability today we're enabling it and operational izing. It really involves a cultural transformation, which is where people like me come in. >> So in terms of culture, so incentives drive behavior, how have you thought through and what are you doing in terms of applying new types of incentives? And how's that working? >> So when we start to measure skills were not just looking at hard skills. We're looking at soft skills, people who are good collaborators, people who have grit, people who are good leaders, people who understand how to do things over and over and over again in a successful manner. So when you start measuring your successful people, you start incentivizing the behaviors that you want to see. And when you start measuring people who can collaborate globally in global economies that that is our business as IBM, that is who we want to see. And that's how we're incentivizing the behaviors that we want to. D'oh. >> So when I look at your background here, obviously you're you're a natural fit for this kind of transformation. So you were You have an anthropology background language. Your data scientist, you do modeling. >> I always say I'm a squishy human data scientist, but I got to work with a huge group of people to create the data science profession with an IBM and get that accredited through open group. And that's something we're very passionate about is to give people a career past so that they know where their next step is. And it's all about moving to growth and sustainable growth by making sure that the workforce knows how value they are by IBM and how valuable they are by our clients. What does >> success look like to you? >> I think success is closer than we think. I think that success is when we have everybody understanding everybody, understanding what it's like to pick up the phone and answer a customer service call from our client and customer and be able to empathize and sympathize and fix the problem. We have 350,000 human beings. We know somebody in some circle that can help fix a client's problem. I think success looks like being able to get that information to the right people at the right time and give people a path so that they know that they're on the boat together, all rowing together in order to make our clients successful. >> That's great. I love the story. Thanks so much for coming on the hearing. You're very welcome. Keep it right there, but we'll be back with our next guest is a day. Violante. We're live from Fisherman's. More for the IBM CDO Chief Data officer event. Right back sticker The cube dot net is where the