>>Hi, welcome to this cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John fur, host of the cube here at our headquarters on the west coast in Palo Alto, California. Got a great news guest here. Matt McGill, Wayne managing director of Madrona venture group is here with me on the big news and drone raising their record 690 million fund and partnering with their innovative founders. Matt, thanks for coming on and, and talking about the news and congratulations on the dry powder. >>Well, Hey, thanks so much, John. Appreciate you having me on the show. >>Well, great news here. Oley validation. We're in a new market. Everyone's talking about the new normal, we're talking about a recession inflation, but yet we've been reporting that this is kind of the first generation that cloud hyperscale economic scale and technical benefits have kind of hit any kind of economic downturn. If you go back to to 2008, our last downturn, the cloud really hasn't hit that tipping point. Now the innovation, as we've been reporting with our startup showcases and looking at the results from the hyperscalers, this funding news is kind of validation that the tech society intersection is working. You guys just get to the news 430 million in the Madrona fund nine and 200. And I think 60 million acceleration fund three, which means you're gonna go stay with your roots with seed early stage and then have some rocket fuel for kind of the accelerated expansion growth side of it. Not like late stage growth, but like scaling growth. This is kind of the news. Is that right? >>That's right. You know, we, we've had a long time strategy over 25 years here in Seattle of being early, early stage. You know, it's like our friends at Amazon like to say is, well, we're there at day one and we wanna help build companies for the long run for over 25 years. We've been doing that in Seattle. And I think one of the things we've realized, I mean, this is, these funds are the largest funds ever raised by a Seattle based venture capital firm and that's notable in and of itself. But we think that's the reason is because Seattle has continued to innovate in areas like consumer internet software cloud, of course, where the cloud capital of the world and increasingly the applications of machine learning. And so with all that combination, we believe there's a ton more companies to be built here in the Pacific Northwest and in Seattle in particular. And then through our acceleration fund where we're investing in companies anywhere in the country, in fact, anywhere in the world, those are the kinds of companies that want to have the Seattle point of view. They don't understand how to work with Amazon and AWS. They don't understand how to work with Microsoft and we have some unique relationships in those places and we think we can help them succeed in doing that. >>You know, it's notable that you guys in particular have been very close with Jeff Bayo Andy Jesse, and the success of ABUS as well as Microsoft. So, you know, Seattle has become cloud city. Everyone kind of knows that from a cloud perspective, obviously Microsoft's roots have been there for a long, long time. You go back, I mean, August capital, early days, funding Microsoft. You remember those days not to date myself, but you know, Microsoft kind of went up there and kind of established it a Amazon there as well. Now you got Google here, you got Facebook in the valley. You guys are now also coming down. This funding comes on the heels of you appointing a new managing director here in Palo Alto. This is now the migration of Madrona coming into the valley. Is that right? Is that what we're seeing? >>Well, I think what we're trying to do is bring the things that we know uniquely from Seattle and the companies here down to Silicon valley. We've got a terrific partner in Karama Hend, Andrew he's somebody that we have worked together with over the years, co-investing in companies. So we knew him really well. It was a bit opportunistic for us, but what we're hearing over and over again is a lot of these companies based in the valley, based in other parts of the country, they don't know really how to best work with the Microsoft and Amazons are understand the services that they offer. And, you know, we have that capability. We have those relationships. We wanna bring that to bear and helping build great companies. >>What is your expectation on the Silicon valley presence here? You can kind of give a hint here kind of a gateway to Seattle, but you got a lot of developers here. We just reported this morning that MEA just open source pie, torch to the Linux foundation again, and Mary material kind of trend we are seeing open source now has become there's no debate anymore has become the software industry. There's no more issue around that. This is real. I >>Think that's right. I mean, you know, once, you know, Satya became CEO, Microsoft, and they started embracing open source, you know, that was gonna be the last big tech holdout. We think open source is very interesting in terms of what it can produce and create in terms of next generation, innovative innovation. It's great to see companies like Facebook like Uber and others that have had a long track record of open source capabilities. But what we're also seeing is you need to build businesses around that, that a lot of enterprises don't wanna buy just the open source and stitch it together themselves. They want somebody to do it with them. And whether that's the way that, you know, companies like MongoDB have built that out over time or that's, you know, or elastic or, you know, companies like opt ML and our portfolio, or even the big cloud, you know, hyperscalers, you know, they are increasingly embracing open source and building finished services, managed services on top of it. So that's a big wave that we've been investing in for a number of years now and are highly confident gonna >>Continue. You know, I've been a big fan of Pacific Northwest for a while. You know, love going up there and talking to the folks at Microsoft and Amazon and AWS, but there's been a big trend in venture capital where a lot of the, the later stage folks, including private equity have come in, you seen tiger global even tiger global alumni, that the Cubs they call them, you know, they're coming down and playing in the early state and the results haven't been that good. You guys have had a track record in your success. Again, a hundred percent of your institutional investors have honed up with you on this two fund strategy of close to 700 million. What's this formula says, why aren't they winning what's is it, they don't have the ecosystem? Is it they're spraying and praying without a lot of discipline? What's the dynamic between the folks like Madrona, the Neas of the world who kind of come in and Sequoia who kind of do it right, right. Come in. And they get it done in the right way. The early stage. I just say the private equity folks, >>You know, I think that early stage venture is a local business. It is a geographically proximate business when you're helping incredible founders, try to really dial in that early founder market fit. This is before you even get to product market fit. And, and so the, the team building that goes on the talking to potential customers, the ITER iterating on business strategy, this is a roll up your sleeves kind of thing. It's not a financial transaction. And so what you're trying to do is have a presence and an understanding, a prepared mind of one of the big themes and the kinds of founders that with, you know, our encouragement and our help can go build lasting companies. Now, when you get to a, a, a later stage, you know, you get to that growth stage. It is generally more of a financial, you know, kind of engineering sort of proposition. And there's some folks that are great at that. What we do is we support these companies all the way through. We reserve enough capital to be with them at the seed stage, the series B stage the, you know, the crossover round before you go public, all of those sorts of things. And we love partnering with some of these other people, but there's a lot of heavy lifting at the early, early stages of a business. And it's, it's not, I think a model that everybody's architected to do >>Well, you know, trust becomes a big factor in all this. You kind of, when you talk about like that, I hear you speaking. It makes me think of like trusted advisor meets money, not so much telling people what to do. You guys have had a good track record and, and being added value, not values from track. And sometimes that values from track is getting in the way of the entrepreneur by, you know, running the certain meetings, driving board meetings and driving the agenda that you see to see that trend where people try too hard and that a force function, the entrepreneur we're living in a world now where everyone's talking to each other, you got, you know, there's no more glass door it's everyone's on Twitter, right? So you can see some move, someone trying to control the supply chain of talent by term sheet, overvaluing them. >>You guys are, have a different strategy. You guys have a network I've noticed that Madrona has attracted them high end talent coming outta Microsoft outta AWS season, season, senior talent. I won't say, you know, senior citizens, but you know, people have done things scaled up businesses, as well as attract young talent. Can you share with our audience that dynamic of the, the seasoned veterans, the systems thinkers, the ones who have been there done that built software, built teams to the new young entrepreneurs coming in, what's the dynamic, like, how do you guys look at at those networks? How do you nurture them? Could you share your, your strategy on how you're gonna pull all this together, going forward? >>You know, we, we think a lot about building the innovation ecosystem, like a phrase around here that you hear a lot is the bigger pie theory. How do we build the bigger pie? If we're focusing on building the bigger pie, there'll be plenty of that pie for Madrona Madrona companies. And in that mindset says, okay, how are we gonna invest in the innovation ecosystem? And then actually to use a term, you know, one of our founders who unfortunately passed away this year, Tom Aber, he had just written a book called flywheel. And I think it embodies this mindset that we have of how do you create that flywheel within a community? And of course, interestingly enough, I think Tom both learned and contributed to that. He was on the board of Amazon for almost 20 years in helping build some of the flywheels at Amazon. >>So that's what we carry forward. And we know that there's a lot of value in experiential learning. And so we've been fortunate to have some folks, you know, that have worked at some of those, you know, kind iconic companies, join us and find that they really love this company building journey. We've also got some terrific younger folks that have, you know, some very fresh perspectives and a lot of, a lot of creativity. And they're bringing that together with our team overall. And you know, what we really are trying to do at the end of the day is find incredible founders who wanna build something lasting, insignificant, and provide our kind of our time, our best ideas, our, our perspective. And of course our capital to help them be >>Successful. I love the ecosystem play. I think that's a human capital game too. I like the way you guys are thinking about that. I do wanna get your reaction, cause I know you're close to Amazon and Microsoft, but mainly Jeff Bezos as well. You mentioned your, your partner who passed away was on the board. A lot of great props on and tributes online. I saw that, I know I didn't know him at all. So I really can't comment, but I did notice that Bezos and, and jazz in particular were complimentary. And recently I just saw Bezos comment on Twitter about the, you know, the Lord of the rings movie. They're putting out the series and he says, you gotta have a team. That's kinda like rebels. I'm paraphrasing, cuz these folks never done a movie like this before. So they're, they're getting good props and reviews in this new world order where entrepreneurs gotta do things different. >>What's the one thing that you think entrepreneurs need to do different to make this next startup journey different and successful because the world is different. There's not a lot of press to relate to Andy Jassey even on stage last week in, in, in LA was kind of, he's not really revealing. He's on his talking points, message, the press aren't out there and big numbers anymore. And you got a lot of different go-to market strategies, omnichannel, social different ways to communicate to customers. Yeah. So product market fit is becomes big. So how do you see this new flywheel emerging for those entrepreneurs have to go out there, roll up their sleeves and make it happen. And what kind of resources do you think they need to be successful? What are you guys advocating? >>Well, you know, what's really interesting about that question is I've heard Jeff say many times that when people ask him, what's gotta be different. He, he reminds them to think about what's not gonna change. And he usually starts to then talk about things like price, convenience, and selection. Customer's never gonna want a higher price, less convenience, smaller selection. And so when you build on some of those principles of, what's not gonna change, it's easier for you to understand what could be changing as it relates to the differences. One of the biggest differences, I don't think any of us have fully figured out yet is what does it mean to be productive in a hybrid work mode? We happen to believe that it's still gonna have a kernel of people that are geographically close, that are part of the founding and building in the early stages of a company. >>And, and it's an and equation that they're going to also have people that are distributed around the country, perhaps around the world that are some of the best talent that they attract to their team. The other thing that I think coming back to what remains the same is being hyper focused on a certain customer and a certain problem that you're passionate about solving. And that's really what we look for when we look for this founder market fit. And it can be a lot of different things from the next generation water bottle to a better way to handle deep learning models and get 'em deployed in the cloud. If you've got that passion and you've got some inkling of the skill of how to build a better solution, that's never gonna go away. That's gonna be enduring, but exactly how you do that as a team in a hybrid world, I think that's gonna be different. >>Yeah. One thing that's not changing is that your investor, makeup's not changing a hundred percent of your existing institutional investors have signed back on with you guys and your oversubscribed, lot of demand. What is your flywheel success formula? Why is Tron is so successful? Can you share some feedback from your investors? What are they saying? Why are they re-upping share some inside baseball or anecdotal praise? >>Well, I think it's very kind to you to frame it that way. I mean, you know, it does for investors come back to performance. You know, these are university endowments and foundations that have a responsibility to, to generate great returns. And we understand that and we're very aligned with that. I think to be specific in the last couple years, they appreciated that we were also not holding onto our, our stocks forever, that we actually made some thoughtful decisions to sell some shares of companies like Smartsheet and snowflake and accolade in others, and actually distribute capital back to them when things were looking really, really good. But I think the thing, other thing that's very important here is that we've created a flywheel with our core strategy being Seattle based and then going out from there to try to find the best founders, build great companies with them, roll up our sleeves in a productive way and help them for the long term, which now leads to multiple generations of people, you know, at those companies. And beyond that we wanna be, you know, partner with and back again. And so you create this flywheel by having success with people in doing it in a respectful. And as you said earlier, a trusted way, >>What's the message for the Silicon valley crowd, obviously bay area, Silicon valley, Palo Alto office, and the center of it. Obviously you got them hybrid workforce hybrid venture model developing what's the goals. What's the message for Silicon valley? >>Well, our message for folks in Silicon valley is the same. It's always been, we we're excited to partner with them largely up here again, cause this is still our home base, but there'll be a, you know, select number of opportunities where we'll get a chance to partner together down in Silicon valley. And we think we bring something different with that deep understanding of cloud computing, that deep understanding of applied machine learning. And of course, some of our unique relationships up here that can be additive to what the they've already done. And some of them are just great partners and have built, you know, help build some really incredible companies over >>The years. Matt, I really appreciate you taking the time for this interview, given them big news. I guess the question on everyone's mind, certainly the entrepreneur's mind is how do I get some of that cash you have and put it into work for my opportunity. One what's the investment thesis can take a minute to put the plug in for the firm. What are you looking to invest in? What's the thesis? What kind of entrepreneurs you're looking for? I know fund one is seed fund nine is seed to, to a and B and the second one is beyond B and beyond for growth. What's the pitch. What's the pitch. >>Yeah. Well you can, you can think of us as you know, any stage from pre-seed to series seed. You know, we'll make a new investment in companies in all of those stages. You know, I think that, you know, the, the core pitch, you know, to us is, you know, your passion for the, for the problem that you're trying to, trying to get solved. And we're of course, very excited about that. And you know, at, at, at the end of the day, you know, if you want somebody that has a distinct point of view on the market that is based up here and can roll up their sleeves and work alongside you. We're, we're, we're the ones that are more than happy to do that. Proven track record of doing that for 25 plus years. And there's so much innovation ahead. There's so many opportunities to disrupt to pioneer, and we're excited to be a part of working with great founders to do that. >>Well, great stuff. We'll see you ATS reinvent coming up shortly and your annual get together. You always have your crew down there and, and team engaging with some of the cloud players as well. And looking forward to seeing how the Palo Alto team expands out. And Matt, thanks for coming on the cube. Appreciate your time. >>Thanks very much, John. Appreciate you having me look forward to seeing you at reinvent. >>Okay. Matt, Matt here with Madrona venture group, he's the partner managing partner Madrona group raises 690 million to fund nine and, and, and again, and big funds for accelerated growth fund. Three lot of dry powder. Again, entrepreneurship in technology is scaling. It's not going down. It's continuing to accelerate into this next generation super cloud multi-cloud hybrid cloud world steady state. This is the cubes coverage. I'm John for Silicon angle and host of the cube. Thanks for watching.

(gentle upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone, to "theCUBE"'s live stage performance here in Palo Alto, California at "theCUBE" Studios. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, kicking off our first inaugural Supercloud event. It's an editorial event, we wanted to bring together the best in the business, the smartest, the biggest, the up-and-coming startups, venture capitalists, everybody, to weigh in on this new Supercloud trend, this structural change in the cloud computing business. We're about to run the Ecosystem Speaks, which is a bunch of pre-recorded companies that wanted to get their voices on the record, so stay tuned for the rest of the day. We'll be replaying all that content and they're going to be having some really good commentary and hear what they have to say. I had a chance to interview and so did Dave. Dave, this is our closing segment where we kind of unpack everything or kind of digest and report. So much to kind of digest from the conversations today, a wide range of commentary from Supercloud operating system to developers who are in charge to maybe it's an ops problem or maybe Oracle's a Supercloud. I mean, that was debated. So so much discussion, lot to unpack. What was your favorite moments? >> Well, before I get to that, I think, I go back to something that happened at re:Invent last year. Nick Sturiale came up, Steve Mullaney from Aviatrix; we're going to hear from him shortly in the Ecosystem Speaks. Nick Sturiale's VC said "it's happening"! And what he was talking about is this ecosystem is exploding. They're building infrastructure or capabilities on top of the CapEx infrastructure. So, I think it is happening. I think we confirmed today that Supercloud is a thing. It's a very immature thing. And I think the other thing, John is that, it seems to me that the further you go up the stack, the weaker the business case gets for doing Supercloud. We heard from Marianna Tessel, it's like, "Eh, you know, we can- it was easier to just do it all on one cloud." This is a point that, Adrian Cockcroft just made on the panel and so I think that when you break out the pieces of the stack, I think very clearly the infrastructure layer, what we heard from Confluent and HashiCorp, and certainly VMware, there's a real problem there. There's a real need at the infrastructure layer and then even at the data layer, I think Benoit Dageville did a great job of- You know, I was peppering him with all my questions, which I basically was going through, the Supercloud definition and they ticked the box on pretty much every one of 'em as did, by the way Ali Ghodsi you know, the big difference there is the philosophy of Republicans and Democrats- got open versus closed, not to apply that to either one side, but you know what I mean! >> And the similarities are probably greater than differences. >> Berkely, I would probably put them on the- >> Yeah, we'll put them on the Democrat side we'll make Snowflake the Republicans. But so- but as we say there's a lot of similarities as well in terms of what their objectives are. So, I mean, I thought it was a great program and a really good start to, you know, an industry- You brought up the point about the industry consortium, asked Kit Colbert- >> Yep. >> If he thought that was something that was viable and what'd they say? That hyperscale should lead it? >> Yeah, they said hyperscale should lead it and there also should be an industry consortium to get the voices out there. And I think VMware is very humble in how they're putting out their white paper because I think they know that they can't do it all and that they do not have a great track record relative to cloud. And I think, but they have a great track record of loyal installed base ops people using VMware vSphere all the time. >> Yeah. >> So I think they need a catapult moment where they can catapult to the cloud native which they've been working on for years under Raghu and the team. So the question on VMware is in the light of Broadcom, okay, acquisition of VMware, this is an opportunity or it might not be an opportunity or it might be a spin-out or something, I just think VMware's got way too much engineering culture to be ignored, Dave. And I think- well, I'm going to watch this very closely because they can pull off some sort of rallying moment. I think they could. And then you hear the upstarts like Platform9, Rafay Systems and others they're all like, "Yes, we need to unify behind something. There needs to be some sort of standard". You know, we heard the argument of you know, more standards bodies type thing. So, it's interesting, maybe "theCUBE" could be that but we're going to certainly keep the conversation going. >> I thought one of the most memorable statements was Vittorio who said we- for VMware, we want our cake, we want to eat it too and we want to lose weight. So they have a lot of that aspirations there! (John laughs) >> And then I thought, Adrian Cockcroft said you know, the devs, they want to get married. They were marrying everybody, and then the ops team, they have to deal with the divorce. >> Yeah. >> And I thought that was poignant. It's like, they want consistency, they want standards, they got to be able to scale And Lori MacVittie, I'm not sure you agree with this, I'd have to think about it, but she was basically saying, all we've talked about is devs devs devs for the last 10 years, going forward we're going to be talking about ops. >> Yeah, and I think one of the things I learned from this day and looking back, and some kind of- I've been sauteing through all the interviews. If you zoom out, for me it was the epiphany of developers are still in charge. And I've said, you know, the developers are doing great, it's an ops security thing. Not sure I see that the way I was seeing before. I think what I learned was the refactoring pattern that's emerging, In Sik Rhee brought this up from Vertex Ventures with Marianna Tessel, it's a nuanced point but I think he's right on which is the pattern that's emerging is developers want ease-of-use tooling, they're driving the change and I think the developers in the devs ops ethos- it's never going to be separate. It's going to be DevOps. That means developers are driving operations and then security. So what I learned was it's not ops teams leveling up, it's devs redefining what ops is. >> Mm. And I think that to me is where Supercloud's going to be interesting- >> Forcing that. >> Yeah. >> Forcing the change because the structural change is open sources thriving, devs are still in charge and they still want more developers, Vittorio "we need more developers", right? So the developers are in charge and that's clear. Now, if that happens- if you believe that to be true the domino effect of that is going to be amazing because then everyone who gets on the wrong side of history, on the ops and security side, is going to be fighting a trend that may not be fight-able, you know, it might be inevitable. And so the winners are the ones that are refactoring their business like Snowflake. Snowflake is a data warehouse that had nothing to do with Amazon at first. It was the developers who said "I'm going to refactor data warehouse on AWS". That is a developer-driven refactorization and a business model. So I think that's the pattern I'm seeing is that this concept refactoring, patterns and the developer trajectory is critical. >> I thought there was another great comment. Maribel Lopez, her Lord of the Rings comment: "there will be no one ring to rule them all". Now at the same time, Kit Colbert, you know what we asked him straight out, "are you the- do you want to be the, the Supercloud OS?" and he basically said, "yeah, we do". Now, of course they're confined to their world, which is a pretty substantial world. I think, John, the reason why Maribel is so correct is security. I think security's a really hard problem to solve. You've got cloud as the first layer of defense and now you've got multiple clouds, multiple layers of defense, multiple shared responsibility models. You've got different tools for XDR, for identity, for governance, for privacy all within those different clouds. I mean, that really is a confusing picture. And I think the hardest- one of the hardest parts of Supercloud to solve. >> Yeah, and I thought the security founder Gee Rittenhouse, Piyush Sharrma from Accurics, which sold to Tenable, and Tony Kueh, former head of product at VMware. >> Right. >> Who's now an investor kind of looking for his next gig or what he is going to do next. He's obviously been extremely successful. They brought up the, the OS factor. Another point that they made I thought was interesting is that a lot of the things to do to solve the complexity is not doable. >> Yeah. >> It's too much work. So managed services might field the bit. So, and Chris Hoff mentioned on the Clouderati segment that the higher level services being a managed service and differentiating around the service could be the key competitive advantage for whoever does it. >> I think the other thing is Chris Hoff said "yeah, well, Web 3, metaverse, you know, DAO, Superclouds" you know, "Stupercloud" he called it and this bring up- It resonates because one of the criticisms that Charles Fitzgerald laid on us was, well, it doesn't help to throw out another term. I actually think it does help. And I think the reason it does help is because it's getting people to think. When you ask people about Supercloud, they automatically- it resonates with them. They play back what they think is the future of cloud. So Supercloud really talks to the future of cloud. There's a lot of aspects to it that need to be further defined, further thought out and we're getting to the point now where we- we can start- begin to say, okay that is Supercloud or that isn't Supercloud. >> I think that's really right on. I think Supercloud at the end of the day, for me from the simplest way to describe it is making sure that the developer experience is so good that the operations just happen. And Marianna Tessel said, she's investing in making their developer experience high velocity, very easy. So if you do that, you have to run on premise and on the cloud. So hybrid really is where Supercloud is going right now. It's not multi-cloud. Multi-cloud was- that was debunked on this session today. I thought that was clear. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think- >> It's not about multi-cloud. It's about operationally seamless operations across environments, public cloud to on-premise, basically. >> I think we got consensus across the board that multi-cloud, you know, is a symptom Chuck Whitten's thing of multi-cloud by default versus multi- multi-cloud has not been a strategy, Kit Colbert said, up until the last couple of years. Yeah, because people said, "oh we got all these multiple clouds, what do we do with it?" and we got this mess that we have to solve. Whereas, I think Supercloud is something that is a strategy and then the other nuance that I keep bringing up is it's industries that are- as part of their digital transformation, are building clouds. Now, whether or not they become superclouds, I'm not convinced. I mean, what Goldman Sachs is doing, you know, with AWS, what Walmart's doing with Azure connecting their on-prem tools to those public clouds, you know, is that a supercloud? I mean, we're going to have to go back and really look at that definition. Or is it just kind of a SAS that spans on-prem and cloud. So, as I said, the further you go up the stack, the business case seems to wane a little bit but there's no question in my mind that from an infrastructure standpoint, to your point about operations, there's a real requirement for super- what we call Supercloud. >> Well, we're going to keep the conversation going, Dave. I want to put a shout out to our founding supporters of this initiative. Again, we put this together really fast kind of like a pilot series, an inaugural event. We want to have a face-to-face event as an industry event. Want to thank the founding supporters. These are the people who donated their time, their resource to contribute content, ideas and some cash, not everyone has committed some financial contribution but we want to recognize the names here. VMware, Intuit, Red Hat, Snowflake, Aisera, Alteryx, Confluent, Couchbase, Nutanix, Rafay Systems, Skyhigh Security, Aviatrix, Zscaler, Platform9, HashiCorp, F5 and all the media partners. Without their support, this wouldn't have happened. And there are more people that wanted to weigh in. There was more demand than we could pull off. We'll certainly continue the Supercloud conversation series here on "theCUBE" and we'll add more people in. And now, after this session, the Ecosystem Speaks session, we're going to run all the videos of the big name companies. We have the Nutanix CEOs weighing in, Aviatrix to name a few. >> Yeah. Let me, let me chime in, I mean you got Couchbase talking about Edge, Platform 9's going to be on, you know, everybody, you know Insig was poopoo-ing Oracle, but you know, Oracle and Azure, what they did, two technical guys, developers are coming on, we dig into what they did. Howie Xu from Zscaler, Paula Hansen is going to talk about going to market in the multi-cloud world. You mentioned Rajiv, the CEO of Nutanix, Ramesh is going to talk about multi-cloud infrastructure. So that's going to run now for, you know, quite some time here and some of the pre-record so super excited about that and I just want to thank the crew. I hope guys, I hope you have a list of credits there's too many of you to mention, but you know, awesome jobs really appreciate the work that you did in a very short amount of time. >> Well, I'm excited. I learned a lot and my takeaway was that Supercloud's a thing, there's a kind of sense that people want to talk about it and have real conversations, not BS or FUD. They want to have real substantive conversations and we're going to enable that on "theCUBE". Dave, final thoughts for you. >> Well, I mean, as I say, we put this together very quickly. It was really a phenomenal, you know, enlightening experience. I think it confirmed a lot of the concepts and the premises that we've put forth, that David Floyer helped evolve, that a lot of these analysts have helped evolve, that even Charles Fitzgerald with his antagonism helped to really sharpen our knives. So, you know, thank you Charles. And- >> I like his blog, by the I'm a reader- >> Yeah, absolutely. And it was great to be back in Palo Alto. It was my first time back since pre-COVID, so, you know, great job. >> All right. I want to thank all the crew and everyone. Thanks for watching this first, inaugural Supercloud event. We are definitely going to be doing more of these. So stay tuned, maybe face-to-face in person. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante now for the Ecosystem chiming in, and they're going to speak and share their thoughts here with "theCUBE" our first live stage performance event in our studio. Thanks for watching. (gentle upbeat music)

>>Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to the Cube's coverage of snowflake summit 22 live from Caesar's forum in Las Vegas. Lisa Martin, here with Dave Valante. This is day three of our coverage. We've had an amazing, amazing time. Great conversations talking with snowflake executives, partners, customers. We're gonna be digging into data mesh with data.world. Please welcome John loins, the chief product officer. Great to have you on the program, John, >>Thank you so much for, for having me here. I mean, the summit, like you said, has been incredible, so many great people, so such a good time, really, really nice to be back in person with folks. >>It is fabulous to be back in person. The fact that we're on day four for, for them. And this is the, the solution showcase is as packed as it is at 10 11 in the morning. Yeah. Is saying something >>Yeah. Usually >>Chopping at the bit to hear what they're doing and innovate. >>Absolutely. Usually those last days of conferences, everybody starts getting a little tired, but we're not seeing that at all here, especially >>In Vegas. This is impressive. Talk to the audience a little bit about data.world, what you guys do and talk about the snowflake relationship. >>Absolutely data.world is the only true cloud native enterprise data catalog. We've been an incredible snowflake partner and Snowflake's been an incredible partner to us really since 2018. When we became the first data catalog in the snowflake partner connect experience, you know, snowflake and the data cloud make it so possible. And it's changed so much in terms of being able to, you know, very easily transition data into the cloud to break down those silos and to have a platform that enables folks to be incredibly agile with data from an engineering and infrastructure standpoint, data out world is able to provide a layer of discovery and governance that matches that agility and the ability for a lot of different stakeholders to really participate in the process of data management and data governance. >>So data mesh basically Jamma, Dani lays out the first of all, the, the fault domains of existing data and big data initiatives. And she boils it down to the fact that it's just this monolithic architecture with hyper specialized teams that you have to go through and it just slows everything down and it doesn't scale. They don't have domain context. So she came up with four principles if I may, yep. Domain ownership. So push it out to the businesses. They have the context they should own the data. The second is data as product. We're certainly hearing a lot about that today this week. The third is that. So that makes it sounds good. Push out the, the data great, but it creates two problems. Self-serve infrastructure. Okay. But her premises infrastructure should be an operational detail. And then the fourth is computational governance. So you talked about data CA where do you fit in those four principles? >>You know, honestly, we are able to help teams realize the data mesh architecture. And we know that data mesh is really, it's, it's both a process in a culture change, but then when you want to enact a process in a culture change like this, you also need to select the appropriate tools to match the culture that you're trying to build the process in the architecture that you're trying to build. And the data world data catalog can really help along all four of those axes. When you start thinking first about, let's say like, let's take the first one, you know, data as a product, right? We even like very meta of us from metadata management platform at the end of the day. But very meta of us. When you talk about data as a product, we track adoption and usage of all your data assets within your organization and provide program teams and, you know, offices of the CDO with incredible evented analytics, very detailed that gives them the right audit trail that enables them to direct very scarce data engineering, data architecture resources, to make sure that their data assets are getting adopted and used properly. >>On the, on the domain driven side, we are entirely knowledge graph and open standards based enabling those different domains. We have, you know, incredible joint snowflake customers like Prologis. And we chatted a lot about this in our session here yesterday, where, because of our knowledge graph underpinnings, because of the flexibility of our metadata model, it enables those domains to actually model their assets uniquely from, from group to group, without having to, to relaunch or run different environments. Like you can do that all within one day catalog platform without having to have separate environments for each of those domains, federated governance. Again, the amount of like data exhaust that we create that really enables ambient governance and participatory governance as well. We call it agile data governance, really the adoption of agile and open principles applied to governance to make it more inclusive and transparent. And we provide that in a way that Confederate across those means and make it consistent. >>Okay. So you facilitate across that whole spectrum of, of principles. And so what in the, in the early examples of data mesh that I've studied and actually collaborated with, like with JPMC, who I don't think is who's not using your data catalog, but hello, fresh who may or may not be, but I mean, there, there are numbers and I wanna get to that. But what they've done is they've enabled the domains to spin up their own, whatever data lakes, data, warehouses, data hubs, at least in, in concept, most of 'em are data lakes on AWS, but still in concept, they wanna be inclusive and they've created a master data catalog. And then each domain has its sub catalogue, which feeds into the master and that's how they get consistency and governance and everything else is, is that the right way to think about it? And or do you have a different spin on that? >>Yeah, I, I, you know, I have a slightly different spin on it. I think organizationally it's the right way to think about it. And in absence of a catalog that can truly have multiple federated metadata models, multiple graphs in one platform, I, that is really kind of the, the, the only way to do it, right with data.world. You don't have to do that. You can have one platform, one environment, one instance of data.world that spans all of your domains, enable them to operate independently and then federate across. So >>You just answered my question as to why I should use data.world versus Amazon glue. >>Oh, absolutely. >>And that's a, that's awesome that you've done now. How have you done that? What, what's your secret >>Sauce? The, the secret sauce era is really an all credit to our CTO. One of my closest friends who was a true student of knowledge graph practices and principles, and really felt that the right way to manage metadata and knowledge about the data analytics ecosystem that companies were building was through federated linked data, right? So we use standards and we've built a, a, an open and extensible metadata model that we call costs that really takes the best parts of existing open standards in the semantics space. Things like schema.org, DCA, Dublin core brings them together and models out the most typical enterprise data assets providing you with an ontology that's ready to go. But because of the graph nature of what we do is instantly accessible without having to rebuild environments, without having to do a lot of management against it. It's, it's really quite something. And it's something all of our customers are, are very impressed with and, and, and, and, you know, are getting a lot of leverage out of, >>And, and we have a lot of time today, so we're not gonna shortchange this topic. So one last question, then I'll shut up and let you jump in. This is an open standard. It's not open source. >>No, it's an open built on open standards, built on open standards. We also fundamentally believe in extensibility and openness. We do not want to vertically like lock you into our platform. So everything that we have is API driven API available. Your metadata belongs to you. If you need to export your graph, you know, instantly available in open machine readable formats. That's really, we come from the open data community. That was a lot of the founding of data.world. We, we worked a lot in with the open data community and we, we fundamentally believe in that. And that's enabled a lot of our customers as well to truly take data.world and not have it be a data catalog application, but really an entire metadata management platform and extend it even further into their enterprise to, to really catalog all of their assets, but also to build incredible integrations to things like corporate search, you know, having data assets show up in corporate Wiki search, along with all the, the descriptive metadata that people need has been incredibly powerful and an incredible extension of our platform that I'm so happy to see our customers in. >>So leasing. So it's not exclusive to, to snowflake. It's not exclusive to AWS. You can bring it anywhere. Azure GCP, >>Anytime. Yeah. You know where we are, where we love snowflake, look, we're at the snowflake summit. And we've always had a great relationship with snowflake though, and really leaned in there because we really believe Snowflake's principles, particularly around cloud and being cloud native and the operating advantages that it affords companies that that's really aligned with what we do. And so snowflake was really the first of the cloud data catalogs that we ultimately or say the cloud data warehouses that we integrated with and to see them transition to building really out the data cloud has been awesome. >>Talk about how data world and snowflake enable companies like per lodges to be data companies. These days, every company has to be a data company, but they, they have to be able to do so quickly to be competitive and to, to really win. How do you help them if we like up level the conversation to really impacting the overall business? >>That's a great question, especially right now, everybody knows. And pro is a great example. They're a logistics and supply chain company at the end of the day. And we know how important logistics and supply chain is nowadays and for them and for a lot of our customers. I think one of the advantages of having a data catalog is the ability to build trust, transparency and inclusivity into their data analytics practice by adopting agile principles, by adopting a data mesh, you're able to extend your data analytics practice to a much broader set of stakeholders and to involve them in the process while the work is getting done. One of the greatest things about agile software development, when it became a thing in the early two thousands was how inclusive it was. And that inclusivity led to a much faster ROI on software projects. And we see the same thing happening in data analytics, people, you know, we have amazing data scientists and data analysts coming up with these insights that could be business changing that could make their company significantly more resilient, especially in the face of economic uncertainty. >>But if you have to sit there and argue with your business stakeholders about the validity of the data, about the, the techniques that were used to do the analysis, and it takes you three months to get people to trust what you've done, that opportunity's passed. So how do we shorten those cycles? How do we bring them closer? And that's, that's really a huge benefit that like Prologis has, has, has realized just tightening that cycle time, building trust, building inclusion, and making sure ultimately humans learn by doing, and if you can be inclusive, it, even, it even increases things like that. We all want to, to, to, to help cuz Lord knows the world needs it. Things like data literacy. Yeah. Right. >>So data.world can inform me as to where on the spectrum of data quality, my data set lives. So I can say, okay, this is usable, shareable, you know, exactly of gold standard versus fix this. Right. Okay. Yep. >>Yep. >>That's yeah. Okay. And you could do that with one data catalog, not a bunch of >>Yeah. And trust trust is really a multifaceted and multi multi-angle idea, right? It's not just necessarily data quality or data observability. And we have incredible partnerships in that space, like our partnership with, with Monte Carlo, where we can ingest all their like amazing observability information and display that in a really like a really consumable way in our data catalog. But it also includes things like the lineage who touch it, who is involved in the process of a, can I get a, a, a question answered quickly about this data? What's it been used for previously? And do I understand that it's so multifaceted that you have to be able to really model and present that in a way that's unique to any given organization, even unique within domains within a single organization. >>If you're not, that means to suggest you're a data quality. No, no supplier. Absolutely. But your partner with them and then that you become the, the master catalog. >>That's brilliant. I love it. Exactly. And you're >>You, you just raised your series C 15 million. >>We did. Yeah. So, you know, really lucky to have incredible investors like Goldman Sachs, who, who led our series C it really, I think, communicates the trust that they have in our vision and what we're doing and the impact that we can have on organization's ability to be agile and resilient around data analytics, >>Enabling customers to have that single source of truth is so critical. You talked about trust. That is absolutely. It's no joke. >>Absolutely. >>That is critical. And there's a tremendous amount of business impact, positive business impact that can come from that. What are some of the things that are next for data.world that we're gonna see? >>Oh, you know, I love this. We have such an incredibly innovative team. That's so dedicated to this space and the mission of what we're doing. We're out there trying to fundamentally change how people get data analytics work done together. One of the big reasons I founded the company is I, I really truly believe that data analytics needs to be a team sport. It needs to go from, you know, single player mode to team mode and everything that we've worked on in the last six years has leaned into that. Our architecture being cloud native, we do, we've done over a thousand releases a year that nobody has to manage. You don't have to worry about upgrading your environment. It's a lot of the same story that's made snowflake. So great. We are really excited to have announced in March on our own summit. And we're rolling this suite of features out over the course of the year, a new package of features that we call data.world Eureka, which is a suite of automations and, you know, knowledge driven functionality that really helps you leverage a knowledge graph to make decisions faster and to operationalize your data in, in the data ops way with significantly less effort, >>Big, big impact there. John, thank you so much for joining David, me unpacking what data world is doing. The data mesh, the opportunities that you're giving to customers and every industry. We appreciate your time and congratulations on the news and the funding. >>Ah, thank you. It's been a, a true pleasure. Thank you for having me on and, and I hope, I hope you guys enjoy the rest of, of the day and, and your other guests that you have. Thank you. >>We will. All right. For our guest and Dave ante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes third day of coverage of snowflake summit, 22 live from Vegas, Dave and I will be right back with our next guest. So stick around.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of biz ops Manifesto unveiled. Brought to you by biz ops Coalition. Hey, welcome back your body, Jeffrey here with the Cube. Welcome back to our ongoing coverage of the busy ops manifesto unveiling its been in the works for a while. But today is the day that it actually kind of come out to the to the public. And we're excited to have a real industry luminary here to talk about what's going on, Why this is important and share his perspective. And we're happy to have from Cape Cod, I believe, is Tom Davenport. He is a distinguished author on professor at Babson College. We could go on. He's got a lot of great titles and and really illuminate airy in the area of big data and analytics. Thomas, great to see you. >>Thanks, Jeff. Happy to be here with you. Great. >>So let's just jump into it, you know, and getting ready for this. I came across your LinkedIn post. I think you did earlier this summer in June and right off the bat, the first sentence just grabbed my attention. I'm always interested in new attempts to address long term issues, Uh, in how technology works within businesses. Biz ops. What did you see in biz ops? That that kind of addresses one of these really big long term problems? >>Well, yeah. The long term problem is that we've had a poor connection between business people and I t people between business objectives and the i t. Solutions that address them. This has been going on, I think, since the beginning of information technology, and sadly, it hasn't gone away. And so busy ops is new attempt to deal with that issue with a, you know, a new framework. Eventually a broad set of solutions that increase the likelihood that will actually solve a business problem with a nightie capability. >>Right. You know, it's interesting to compare it with, like, Dev ops, which I think a lot of people are probably familiar with, which was, you know, built around a agile software development and the theory that we want to embrace change that that changes okay on. We wanna be able to iterate quickly and incorporate that, and that's been happening in the software world for for 20 plus years. What's taking so long to get that to the business side because the pace of change is change on the software side. You know, that's a strategic issue in terms of execution on the business side that they need now to change priorities. And, you know, there's no P R D S and M R. D s and big giant strategic plans that sit on the shelf for five years. That's just not the way business works anymore. Took a long time to get here. >>Yeah, it did. And, you know, there have been previous attempts to make a better connection between business and i t. There was the so called strategic alignment framework that a couple of friends of mine from Boston University developed, I think more than 20 years ago. But, you know, now we have better technology for creating that linkage. And the, you know, the idea of kind of ops oriented frameworks is pretty pervasive now. So I think it's, um you know, time for another serious attempt at it, >>right? And do you think doing it this way right with the bizarre coalition, you know, getting a collection of of kind of like minded individuals and companies together and actually even having a manifesto which were making this declarative statement of principles and values. You think that's what it takes to kind of drive this, you know, kind of beyond the experiment and actually, you know, get it done and really start to see some results in, in in production in the field. >>I think certainly no one vendor organization can pull this off single handedly. It does require a number of organizations collaborating and working together. So I think a coalition is a good idea, and a manifesto is just a good way to kind of lay out. What you see is the key principles of the idea, and that makes it much easier for everybody. Toe I understand and act on. >>Yeah, I I think it's just it's really interesting having, you know, having them written down on paper and having it just be so clearly articulated both in terms of the of the values as well as as the the principles and and the values, you know. Business outcomes, matter, trust and collaboration, data driven decisions, which is the number three or four and then learn, responded pivot. It doesn't seem like those should have to be spelled out so clearly. But obviously it helps to have them there. You can stick them on the wall and kind of remember what your priorities are. But you're the data guy. You're the analytics guy. Yeah, And a big piece of this is data analytics and moving to data driven decisions. And principle number seven says, you know, today's organizations generate more data than humans can process. And informed decisions can be augmented by machine learning and artificial intelligence right up your alley. You know, you've talked a number of times on kind of the many stages of analytics. Onda. How has that's evolved over over time? You know, it is You think of analytics and machine learning driving decisions beyond supporting decisions, but actually starting to make decisions in machine time. What's that? What's that think for you? What does that make you? You know, start to think Wow, this is This is gonna be pretty significant. >>Yeah, well, you know, this has been a long term interest of mine. Um, the last generation of a I I was very interested in expert systems. And then e think more than 10 years ago, I wrote an article about automated decision making using, um, what was available then, which is rule based approaches. But, you know, this address is an issue that we've always had with analytics and ai. Um, you know, we tended Thio refer to those things as providing decision support. The problem is that if the decision maker didn't want their support, didn't want to use them in order to make a decision, they didn't provide any value. And so the nice thing about automating decisions with now contemporary ai tools is that we can ensure that data and analytics get brought into the decision without any possible disconnection. Now, I think humans still have something to add here, and we often will need to examine how that decision is being made and maybe even have the ability to override it. But in general, I think, at least for, you know, repetitive tactical decisions, um, involving a lot of data. We want most of those I think, to be at least, um, recommended, if not totally made by analgesic rhythm or an AI based system, and that, I believe would add to the quality and the precision and the accuracy of decisions. And in most organizations, >>you know, I think I think you just answered my next question before I Before I asked it. You know, we had Dr Robert Gates on the former secretary of Defense on a few years back, and we were talking about machines and machines making decisions, and he said at that time, you know, the only weapon systems that actually had an automated trigger on it, We're on the North Korean South Korea border. Um, everything else that you said had to go through some person before the final decision was made. And my question is, you know what are kind of the attributes of the decision that enable us that more easily automated? And then how do you see that kind of morphing over time both as the the data to support that as well as our comfort level, Um, enables us to turn mawr mawr actual decisions over to the machine? >>Well, yeah, I suggested we need data, and the data that we have to kind of train our models has to be high quality and current, and we need to know the outcomes of the that data. You know, most machine learning models, at least in business, are supervised, and that means we need tohave labeled outcomes in the in the training data. But you know, the pandemic that we're living through is a good illustration of the fact that the data also have to be reflective of current reality. And, you know, one of the things that were finding out quite frequently these days is that the data that we have a do not reflect you know what it's like to do business in a pandemic. I wrote a little piece about this recently with Jeff Cam at Wake Forest University. We call it Data Science Quarantined and it we interviewed somebody who said, You know, it's amazing what eight weeks of zeros will do to your demand forecast. We just don't really know what happens in a pandemic. Our models may be have to be put on the shelf for a little while and until we can develop some new ones or we can get some other guidelines into making decisions. So I think that's one of the key things with automated decision making. We have toe make sure that the data from the past and you know that's all we have, of course, is a good guide toe. You know what's happening in the present and in the future, as far as we understand it. >>Yeah, I used to joke when we started this calendar year 2020 was finally the year that we know everything with the benefit of hindsight. But it turned out 2020 the year we found out we actually know nothing and everything >>we thought we d >>o. But I wanna I wanna follow up on that because, you know, it did suddenly change everything, right? We got this light switch moment. Everybody's working from home now. We're many, many months into it, and it's going to continue for a while. I saw your interview with Bernard Marr and you had a really interesting comment that now we have to deal with this change. We don't have a lot of data and you talked about hold, fold or double down, and And I can't think of, um or, you know, kind of appropriate metaphor for driving the value of the biz ops. When now your whole portfolio strategy, um, needs to really be questioned. And, you know, you have to be really well executing on what you are holding. What you're folding and what you're doubling down with this completely new environment? >>Well, yeah, And I hope I did this in the interview. I would like to say that I came up with that term, but it actually came from a friend of mine was a senior executive at gen. Packed, and I used it mostly to talk about AI and AI applications, but I think you could You could use it much more broadly to talk about your entire sort of portfolio. Digital projects you need to think about. Well, um, given some constraints on resource is and a difficulty economy for a while. Which of our projects do we wanna keep going on Pretty much the way we were for and which ones, um, are not that necessary anymore. You see a lot of that in a I because we had so many pilots. Somebody told me, You know, we've got more pilots around here than O'Hare Airport in a I, um and then the the ones that involve double down there, even mawr Important to you, they are. You know, a lot of organizations have found this out in the pandemic on digital projects. It's more and more important for customers to be ableto interact with you digitally. And so you certainly wouldn't want toe cancel those projects or put them on hold. So you double down on them, get them done faster and better. >>Another. Another thing I came up in my research that that you quoted um, was was from Jeff. Bezos is talking about the great bulk of what we do is quietly but meaning fleeing, improving core operations. You know, I think that is so core to this concept of not AI and machine learning and kind of the general sense, which which gets way too much buzz but really applied, applied to a specific problem. And that's where you start to see the value. And, you know, the biz ops manifesto is calling it out in this particular process. But I just love to get your perspective. As you know, you speak generally about this topic all the time, but how people should really be thinking about where the applications where I can apply this technology to get direct business value. >>Yeah, well, you know, even talking about automated decisions, um, the kind of once in a lifetime decisions, uh, the ones that a G laugh. Li, the former CEO of Proctor and Gamble, used to call the big swing decisions. You only get a few of those, he said. In your tenure as CEO, those air probably not going to be the ones that you're automating in part because you don't have much data about them. Your you know, only making them a few times and in part because they really require that big picture thinking and the ability to kind of anticipate the future that the best human decision makers have. Um, but in general, I think where they I The projects that are working well are you know what I call the low hanging fruit ones? The some people even report to refer to it as boring A. I so you know, sucking data out of a contract in order to compare it Thio bill of lading for what arrived at your supply chain. Companies can save or make a lot of money with that kind of comparison. It's not the most exciting thing, but a I, as you suggest, is really good at those narrow kinds of tasks. Um, it's not so good at the at the really big Moonshots like curing cancer or, you know, figuring out well, what's the best stock or bond under all circumstances or even autonomous vehicles. We made some great progress in that area, but everybody seems to agree that they're not gonna be perfect for quite a while. And we really don't wanna be driving around on, um in that very much, unless they're, you know, good and all kinds of weather and with all kinds of pedestrian traffic. And you know that sort of thing, right? >>That's funny. Bring up contract management. I had a buddy years ago. They had a startup around contract management, and I'm like and this was way before we had the compute power today and cloud proliferation. I said, You know how How could you possibly built off around contract management? It's language. It's legalese. It's very specific. He's like Jeff. We just need to know where's the contract and when does it expire? And who's the signatory? And he built a business on those you know, very simple little facts that weren't being covered because their contracts from people's drawers and files and homes and Lord only knows so it's really interesting as you said. These kind of low hanging fruit opportunities where you could extract a lot of business value without trying to, you know, boil the ocean. >>Yeah, I mean, if you're Amazon, Jeff Bezos thinks it's important toe have some kind of billion dollar projects, and he even says it's important to have a billion dollar failure or two every year. But I think most organizations probably are better off being a little less aggressive and, you know, sticking to what a I has been doing for a long time, which is, you know, making smarter decisions based on based on data. >>Right? So, Tom, I want to shift gears one more time before before you let Ugo on on kind of a new topic for you, not really new, but you know, not not the vast majority of your publications. And that's the new way toe work, you know, as as the pandemic hit in mid March, right? And we had this light switch moment. Everybody had to work from home, and it was, you know, kind of crisis and get everybody set up. Well, you know, now we're five months, six months, seven months. A number of companies have said that people are not gonna be going back to work for a while, and so we're going to continue on this for a while, and then even when it's not what it is now, it's not gonna be what it was before. So, you know, I wonder and I know you, you tease. You're working on a a new book, you know, some of your thoughts on, you know, kind of this new way, uh, toe work and and and the human factors in this new, this new kind of reality that we're kind of evolving into, I guess, >>Yeah, this was an interest of mine. I think. Back in the nineties, I wrote an article called a co authored an article called Two Cheers for the Virtual Office. And, you know, it was just starting to emerge than some people were very excited about it. Some people were skeptical, and we said to cheers rather than three cheers because clearly there's some shortcomings and, you know, I keep seeing these pop up. It's it's great that we can work from our homes. It's great that we can accomplish most of what we need to do with a digital interface, but you know, things like innovation and creativity and certainly, um a A good, um, happy social life kind of requires some face to face contact every now and then. And so you know, I think we'll go back to an environment where there is some of that. Um, will have, um, time when people convene in one place so they can get to know each other face to face and learn from each other that way. And most of the time, I think it's a huge waste of people's time to commute into the office every day and toe jump on airplanes. Thio, Thio, give every little sales call or give every little presentation we just have to really narrow down. What are the circumstances, where face to face contact really matters and when can we get by with digital? You know, I think one of the things in my current work on finding is that even when you have AI based decision making, you really need a good platform in which that all takes place. So in addition to these virtual platforms, we need to develop platforms that kind of structure the workflow for us and tell us what we should be doing next and make automated decisions when necessary. And I think that ultimately is a big part of biz ops as well. It's not just the intelligence of an AI system, but it's the flow of work that kind of keeps things moving smoothly throughout your organization. Yeah, >>I think such such a huge opportunity as you just said, because I forget the stats on how often were interrupted with notifications between email text, slack asana, salesforce The list goes on and on. So, you know, t put an AI layer between the person and all these systems that are begging for attention. And you've written a you know, a book on the attention economy, which is a whole nother topic will say for another day. You know, it really begs. It really begs for some assistance because, you know, you just can't get him picked, you know, every two minutes and really get quality work done. It's just not it's just not realistic. And you know what? I don't think that's the future that we're looking for. >>Great. Totally. Alright, >>Tom. Well, thank you so much for your time. Really enjoyed the conversation. I got to dig into the library. It's very long song. I might started the attention economy. I haven't read that one in to me. I think that's the fascinating thing in which we're living. So thank you for your time. And, uh, great to see you. >>My pleasure, Jeff. Great to be here. >>All right, take care. Alright. East, Tom. I'm Jeff. You are watching the continuing coverage of the biz ops manifesto. Unveil. Thanks for watching the Cube. We'll see you next time.

>>From around the globe. It's the queue cover >>Space and cyber security >>Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal poly. >>Hello and welcome to the space and cybersecurity symposium 2020 hosted by Cal poly and the cube I'm chilling for a, your host. We have a great session here. Space, cyber security, the department of defense perspective. We have bond Google hall, director of C four ISR directorate office of the undersecretary of defense for acquisition and sustainment for the DOD and Chris Henson, technical director space and weapons, cybersecurity solutions for the national security agency. Gentlemen, thank you for taking the time for this awesome session. Thank you, John. Thank you. So we're gonna talk about the perspective of the DOD relative to space cybersecurity, a lot, going on congestion, contention, freedom, evolution innovation. So Paul, I'd like to have you start with your opening statement on how you see the space cybersecurity perspective, Don, thanks for the intro. Really appreciate it. First, let me give my thanks to Cal poly for a convening, the space and cybersecurity symposium this year, you know, and despite the pandemic, the organization and the content delivery spreading impressive, I really foot stomping. >>What can possibly be done with a number of these virtual platforms? This has been awesome. Thanks for the opportunity. I also want to recognize my colleague, Chris Nissen from NSA was actually assigned to our staff that LSD, but he brings both policy and technical perspective in this whole area. So I think you'll, you'll find his commentary, uh, and positions on things very refreshing or for today's seminar. Now space cyber security is a pretty interesting terminology for us all. Uh, cyber security means protecting against cyber threats and it's really more than just computers here on earth, right? Uh, space is the newest war fighting domain, and cybersecurity's perhaps even more of a challenge in this domain that and others. Uh, I'm sure it'll turn journal Thompson and major journals Shaw discuss the criticality of this new dorm space force. It's the newest military service in the earlier sessions and they're at the risk of repeating what they already addressed. >>Let me start by talking about what space means to DOD and what we're doing directly from my vantage point as part of the acquisition and sustainment arm of the Pentagon. Uh, what I want to share with you today is how the current space strategy ties into the national defense strategy and supports the department's operational objectives. As the director of CFRI SAR. I have come to understand how the integration of CFRI Sarcic. Billy is a powerful asset to enhance the lethality of the joint war fighter. Secretary Lord, our boss, the sec, the undersecretary for acquisition and sustainment is diligent in her pursuit to adapt and modernize acquisition processes, to influence the strategy and to focus our efforts domain are to make our objectives a reality. I think first and foremost, we are building a more lethal force. This joint force will project low Valley and custom contested environments and across all domains through an operationally integrated and resiliency for ISR infrastructure. >>We are also called debating our alliances, deepening interoperability, which is very important in a future fight and collab, collaboratively planning with those partner with us in the fight most significantly for our work in acquisition and sustainment, we continue to optimize the department for greater performance and affordability through reform of the acquisition process. Now space is our newest war fighting domain. And while it is indeed unique, it shares many common traits with the others land, air and sea all are important to the defense of the U S in conflict. No doubt about this. They will be contested and they must be defended. One domain will not win future conflicts in a joint operation in a future fight in the future conflict. They must all succeed. I see three areas being key to a DOD strategic success in space, one, developing our whole of government approach in close partnership with the private sector and our allies to prioritizing our investments in resiliency, innovation, and adaptive operations, and third responding rapidly and effectively to leverage emerging technologies and seize opportunities to advance your strengths, partnerships and alliances. >>Let me emphasize that space is increasingly congested and tested and demanded as essential delete Valley operational effectiveness and the security of our nation. Now the commercialization of space offers a broad set of investments in satellite technology, potential opportunities to leverage those investments and pathways to develop cost efficient space architecture, where the department and the nation. It's funny, there's a new race, a race for space. If you will, between commercial companies buying for dominance of space. Now the joint staff within DOD is currently building an operational construct to employ and engage as a unified force, coordinated across all domains. We call it the joint, all domain command and control. It is the framework that is under development to allow us to conduct integrated operations in the future. The objective of Jesse too is to provide the war fighter access to the decision making information while providing mission assurance of the information and resilience of the underlying terrestrial air in space networks that support them operationally. >>six to maintain seamless integration, adaptation, and employment of our capability. To sense signal connect, transmit, process control, direct, and deliver lethal capabilities against the enemy. We gain a strategic advantage through the integration of these capabilities across all the domains, by providing balance bowel space, awareness, horse protection, and weapons controlled and deployment capabilities. Now successfully any ratings, the systems and capabilities will provide our war fighters overwhelming superiority on the battlefield environment, challenged by near peer adversaries, as well as non state actors in space. The character of its employment is changing, driven by increasing demands, not just by DOD, but by the commercial sector as well. You know, more and more, uh, we see greater use of small satellite systems to address a myriad of emerging questions, ubiquitous communications, awareness, sensor diversity, and many more. Uh, as I said before, the commercial world is pioneering high rate production of small satellites in our efforts to deploy hundreds, if not thousands of nodes space X, Darlene constellation is one example. >>Another one is Amazon's Kiper, uh, Kuyper just received FCC approval to deploy like over 3000 of these different notes. While a number of these companies continue to grow. Some have struggled. They some pointed as one web, uh, nevertheless, the appetite remains strong and DOD is taking advantage of these advances to support our missions. We are currently exploring how to better integrate the DOD activities involving small satellites under the small satellite coordinating activity, scholarly call it. We want to ensure collaboration and interoperability to maximize efficiency in acquisition and operation. When we started this activity on over a year and a half ago, we documented over 70 plus separate small, small sat programs within DOD. And now we've developed a very vibrant community of interest surrounding a small satellites. Now, part of the work we have identified nine focus areas for further development. These are common areas to all systems and by continuing to expand on these, our plan is they enable a standard of practice that can be applied across all of the domains. >>This includes lawn services, ground processing distribution, and of course, a topic of interest to the symposium space security and Chris we'll, we'll talk more about that being the Houston expert, uh, in this area. Uh, one challenge that we can definitely start working on today is workforce development. Cybersecurity's unique as it straddles STEM and security and policy, the trade craft is different. And unfortunately I've seen estimates recently, so suggesting a workforce gap in the next several years, much like the STEM fields, uh, during the next session, I am a part of a panel with precedent, Armstrong, Cal poly, and Steve Jake's the founder of the national security space association to address workforce development. But for this panel, I'll look forward to having further dialogue surrounding space, opera security with Chris and John. Thank you, John >>Bob, thank you for that whole thing, Steven. Yes. Workforce gaps. We need the new skill space is here. Thank you very much. Chris Henson, technical director of space and weapons, cybersecurity solutions for the national security agency. Your statement, >>Thank you for having me. Uh, I'm one of several technical leaders in space at the national security agency. And I'm currently on a joint duty assignment at the office of under secretary of defense for acquisition and sustainment. I work under mr. GUMA hot in the C four ISR area, but almost 63 years ago on the 4th of October, 1957, Sputnik was the first artificial satellite launched by the Soviet union in space. History was made in each of you can continue to write future space history in your careers. And just like in 1957, the U S isn't alone in space to include our close partnerships and longterm activities with organizations like the Japanese space agency, the European space agency, and, uh, the Canadian space agency, just to name a few. And when we tackle cybersecurity per space, we have to address, address the idea that the communications command and control, uh, and those mission datas will transverse networks owned and operated by a variety of partners, not only.go.mil.com.edu, et cetera. We need to have all the partners address the cyber effects of those systems because the risk excepted by one is shared by all and sharing cyber best practices, lessons learned, uh, data vulnerabilities, threat data, mitigation, mitigation procedures, all our valuable takeaways, uh, in expanding this space community, improving overall conditions for healthy environment. So thank you for having me, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you and your audience. And I look forward to the discussion questions. Thank you. >>Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Bob. Okay. I mean open innovation, the internet, you see plenty of examples. The theme here is partners, commercial government. It's going to take a lot of people and tech companies and technologies to make space work. So we asked my first question, Bonnie, we'll start with you is what do you see as the DOD his role in addressing cybersecurity in space? Uh, it's real, uh, it's a new frontier. Um, it's not going away. It's only going to get more innovative, more open, more contested. It seems like a lot to do there. So what's your role in addressing cyber security in space? >>I think our role is to be the leader in developing and only is it the strategy, but the, uh, the implementation plan is to ensure a full of cybersecurity. If you look at the national cyber cyber strategy, I think publishing 2018 calls for like-minded countries, industry academia, and civil society. Once you mentioned John, the support technology development, uh, digital safety policy advocacy, and research you here today, and those listening are fulfilling their strategy. When you, when you develop, enable use cyber hygiene products, as examples of capabilities, you're pushing the goal to fruition. When you know, what's on your network patron network backup, you're in encrypt your network, you're hardening and preventing cyber attacks. And we in government academia in the case of Cal poly civil networks and in commercial companies, we all benefit from doing that cyber security. Uh, and I think Chris will, we'll, we'll definitely back me up on this more than passwords encryption or pharma. It's truly a mindset and a culture of enabling missions to succeed in assured in a resilient fashion. >>Chris, you're taking reaction to, to the cybersecurity challenge involved here, >>That's it, it's starting really at the highest level of governments. We have, uh, you know, the, the recent security policy directive five that just came out just a couple of days ago, recognize all the factors of cybersecurity that need to come into play. And probably the most important outcome of that as mr said, is the leadership role and that leadership, uh, blends out very well into partnership. So partnership with industry partnership with academia partnership, with, uh, other people that are exploring space. And those partnerships lend itself very naturally to sharing cybersecurity issues, topics as we come up with best practices as we come up with mitigation strategies. And as we come up with vulnerabilities and share that information, the, uh, we're not going to go alone in space, just like we're probably not going to go alone in many other industries or areas, uh, that the DOD has to be, uh, involved in many spectrums of deploying to space. >>And that deployment involves as Mr. Guzman said, encryption authentication, knowing what's on the network, knowing the, the fabric of that network. And if nothing else, this, uh, this, uh, internet of things and work from home environment that we've, uh, partaken of these last few months has even explored and expanded that notion even more dramatically as we have people dial in from all over the different, uh, locations, well space will be that natural node that, uh, natural, uh, next network and mesh involvement that we'll have to protect and explore on not just from a terrestrial involvement, but all segments of it. Th the comm segment, the space vehicle and the ground portion, >>No bond. We talked about this in our other segment, um, around with the president of Cal poly, but the operating models of the space force and the DOD and getting space. It's a software defined world, right? So cybersecurity is a real big issue. Cause you have an operating model that's requiring software to power, these low hanging satellites. That's just an extension to the network. It's distributed computing, know what this is. If you understand what technology we do in space, it's no different, it's just a different environment. So it's software defined that just lends itself well to hacking. I mean, if I'm a hacker I'm going, Hey, why not just take out a satellite and crash it down or make the GPS do something different? I mean, it's definitely an attack vector. This is a big deal. It's not just like getting credentials that are cashed on a server. You gotta really protect, >>Right? Because in one hand it space will carry not only, uh, uh, you know, for local national security information. Uh, but the, uh, I feel like at the economic wellbeing, the financial state of allowed a lot of countries and institutions, you know, more and more John lb, they'll be using space assets to, uh, uh, to make, uh, make, make all that happen. Right. So, and if you look at the, you talk, you mentioned the attack vectors in space, you know, it's not just the computers in the ground, but if you look at the whole life cycle for satellite systems in space, you know, that the, the, the tasking that you need to do that the command, the controlling of the vehicle, the data that comes down in the ground, even when you launch the, the birds, the satellites, you know, they only need to be protected because they're all somewhat vulnerable to, uh, to hacking, uh, to cyber attacks. Especially as we grow into commercialization space, it's going to be a lot more people out there playing in this world. It's going to be a lot more companies out there. And, you know, it's hard to track, uh, uh, you know, the, the potential of, of, of foreign influences as an example, and therefore the potential of being vulnerable in terms of the cyber threat. >>Gentlemen, I like you guys said to move on to this leadership role, you mentioned that you want to be a leader. I get it. The DOD is department of defense. That's a new frontier to defend war time zone. You mentioned war time opportunity potentially, but how do you guys assist that's term hat to getting done? Because there's public and private space operations happening, um, there's security challenge. What does being a leader mean? And how does the DOD department of defense assist driving the public and private? Do you lead from a project standpoint, you lead from a funding standpoint? Is it architectural? I mean, you're talking about now a new end to end architecture. It's not just cloud it's on premise. It's in devices, it's offloaded with new AI technology and Nicks and devices. It's IOT, it's all, this is all new, this is all new. What does it mean for the DOD to be a leader and how do you assist others to get involved? And what does that mean? >>Yeah, I think, uh, the one hand, you know, DOD used to lead, uh, in terms of, uh, uh, being the only source of funding for a lot of, uh, highly developmental efforts. Uh, we're seeing a different story in space. Again, I keep going back to the commercialization of space. We're seeing a lot more players, right? So in many ways >>Ally's commercial companies are actually legally leading the R and D uh, of a lot of different technologies. So we want to take, we certainly want to take advantage of that. So from a leadership standpoint, I think we, we, Lucia can come in, you know, by partnering a lot more with, with the commercial companies, uh, in 2022, the DOD released the defense, uh, uh, space strategy as an example that highlights the threats, the challenges and opportunities the United States has faced by, by sending a example of how we, how we, uh, how we counter, uh, the threats that are out there, not just the DOD, but, but the disability and the commercial sector as well. Our current conditions are strong, but we want to use four lines of effort to meet our challenges and capitalize on our desire state space, uh, lines of effort include building a comprehensive military badges space, integrating space into a national joint and combined operations. Like I mentioned before, shaping that strategic environment and cooperating with allies, partners, and industry and other U S governmental agencies, departments, and agencies to advance the cost of space to take full advantage of what space can provide us, uh, in DOD, uh, and the nation. Chris has a domain. Now, what's your take on all that? >>That's because again, it's going to take more people, >>More diverse, potentially more security >>Halls. What's your view on it? >>Well, let's, let's look at how innovation and new technologies can help us in these areas. So, uh, and, and mentioned it a couple of topics that you hit on already. One of the areas that we can improve on is certainly in the, uh, the architecture, uh, where we look at a zero trust architecture, one of the NIST standards that's come about where it talks about the authentication, uh, the need to know a granular approach, this idea of being able to protect, not just data, but the resources and how people can get access to those, whether they're coming in through an identification, authentication Prudential, or, uh, other aspects of, uh, the, the idea of not just anybody should be able to have access to data or anybody should have access once they're on the inside of the network. So that zero trust architecture is, is one approach where we can show some leadership and guidance. >>Another area is in, uh, a topic that you touched on as well was in the software area. So some innovations are coming on very rapidly and strong in this artificial intelligence and machine learning. So if we can take this AI and ML and apply it to our software development areas, they can parse so much information very quickly. And, uh, you know, this vast array of code that's going into system nowadays, and then that frees up our human, uh, explicit talent and developers that can then look at other areas and not focus on minor bawling to Beverly fix a vulnerability. Uh, they, they can really use their unique skills and talents to come up with a better process, a better way, and let the artificial intelligence and machine learning, find those common problems, those, those unknown, hidden lines of code that, uh, get put into a software alarm Prairie, and then pull down over and over again from system to system. So I think between, uh, an architecture leadership role and employee innovation are two areas that we can show, uh, some benefits and process improvement to this whole system. >>That's a great point, Chris, and you think about just the architectural computer architecture, you know, S you know, network attached storage is an advantage software defined there. You could have flash all flash arrays for storage. You could have multiple cores on a device and this new architecture, offloads things, and it's a whole new way to gain efficiencies. I mean, you got Intel, you got Nvidia, you've got armed all the processors all built in. Um, so there's definitely been commercial best practices and benefits to a new kind of architecture that takes advantage of these new things. It's just, just efficiencies. Um, but this brings up the whole supply chain conversation. I want to get your thoughts on this, because there is talk about predatory investments and access and tactics to gain supply chain access to space systems, your thoughts. >>Yeah. It's a serious threat and not just for, uh, the U S uh, space. So supply chain, if you will, is the supply chain. And I says, you know, writ large, I think, uh, I think it's a, it's a, it's a threat that's, that's real, we're we're seeing today. I just saw an example recently, uh, involving, uh, our, I think our launch services were, there was a, uh, a foreign, uh, threat that was those trying to get into a true through with predatory investments. Uh, so, uh, it is something that we need to, uh, be aware of it it's happening, uh, and is continuing to happen. Uh, it's an easy way to gain access, to, uh, do our IP. Uh, and, uh, so it's something that we, uh, are serious about in terms of, uh, awareness and, and countering >>Chris, your thoughts. I mean, we've see, I mean, I'm an open source guy. I was seen it when I grew up in the industry in the eighties, open source became a revolution, but with that, it enabled new tactics for, um, state sponsored attacks on it that became a domain in of itself. Um, that's well-documented and people talk about that all the time in cyber. Now you have open innovation with hardware, software connected systems. This is going to bring supply chain nightmare. How do you track it all? Who's got what software and what device, where the chip come from, who made it, this is the potential is everywhere. How do you see the, these tactics, whether it's a VC firm from another country or this, that, and the other thing startup. >>Yeah. So when we see, when we see coal companies being purchased by foreign investors, and, you know, we can get blocked out of those, whether it's in the food industry, or if it's in a microchip, then that microchip could be used in a cell phone or a satellite or an automobile. So all of our industries that have these companies that are being purchased, or a large born investment influx into those, you know, that could be suspect. And we, we have to be very careful with those, uh, and, and do the tracking of those, especially when those, uh, some of those parts of mechanisms are coming from off shore. And then going again, going back to, uh, the space policy directive five, it calls out for better supply chain, resource management, the tracking, the knowing the pedigree and the, the quantitative of ability of knowing where those software libraries came from, where the parts came from and the tracking and delivery of that from an end to end system. >>And typically when we have a really large vendor, they can, they can do that really well. But when we have a subcontractor to a subcontractor, to a subcontractor, their resources may not be such that they can do that. Try tracking in mitigation for counterfeits or fraudulent materials going into our systems. So it's a very difficult challenge, and we want to ensure as best we can that as we ingest those parts, as we ingest those software libraries and technologies into the system, that, uh, before we employ them, we have to do some robust testing. And I don't want to say that the last line of defense, but that certainly is a mechanism for finding out, do the systems perform as they stated, uh, on a test bench or a flat set, whatever the case may be before we actually deploy it. And then we're relying on the output or the data that comes from that, that system that may have some corrupt or suspect parts in it. >>Great point, this federal grant, >>The problem with space systems is kind of, you know, is once you, once you launch the bird or the sunlight, uh, your access to it is, is diminished significantly, right? Unless you, you go up there and take it down. Uh, so, you know, kind of to Chris's point, we need to be able to test all the different parts of insurer that is performing as, as described there ass, I spent as specified, uh, with, with good knowledge that it's, uh, it's, uh, it's trustworthy. Uh, and, uh, so we that all on the ground before we, we take it up to launch it. >>It's funny. You want agility, you want speed and you want security, and you want reliability and risk management all aggressive, and it's a technical problem. It says it's a business model problem. I'd love to get real quick. Before we jump into some of the more workforce and gap issues on the personnel side, have you guys should just take a minute to explain quickly what's the federal view. If you had to kind of summarize the federal view of the DOD and the roll with it wants to take, so all the people out there on the commercial side or students out there who are, you know, wanting to jump in, what is the current modern federal view of space cybersecurity. >>Chris, why don't you take that on I'll follow up. Okay. Uh, I don't know that I can give you the federal view, but I can certainly give you the department of defense. That cybersecurity is extremely important. And as our vendors and our suppliers, uh, take on a very, very large and important role, one area that we're looking at improving on is a cyber certification maturity model, where we, where we look at the vendors and how they implement an employee cyber hygiene. So that guidance in and of itself shows the emphasis of cyber security that when we want to write a contract or a vendor, uh, for, for a purchase, that's going to go into a space system. We'd like to know from a third party audit capability, can that vendor, uh, protect and defend to some extent the amount that that part or piece or software system is going to have a cyber protection already built into it from that vendor, from the ground floor up before it even gets put into a larger system. >>So that shows a level of the CMMC process that we've thought about and, uh, started to employ, uh, beginning in 2021 and will be further built on in, in the out years. How, how important the DOD takes that. And other parts of the government are looking at this, in fact, other nations are looking at the CMMC model. So I think it shows a concern in very many areas, uh, not just in the department of defense that they're going to adopt an approach like this. Uh, so it shows the, the pluses and the benefits of a cybersecurity model that, uh, all can build on boggy reaction. Yeah, I'll just, uh, I'll just add to that, John, you, you, you, you asked earlier about, you know, how do we, uh, track, uh, commercial entities or, or people in the space and cyber security domains? Uh, I can tell you that, uh, at least my view of it, you know, space and cyber security are new, it's exciting, it's challenging a lot technical challenges there. So I think in >>Terms of attracting the right people, personnel to work those areas, uh, I think it's, it's not only intellectually challenging, uh, but it's important for, for the dependency that NASA States, uh, and it's important for, for, for economic security, uh, writ large for, for us as well. So I think, uh, in terms of a workforce and trying to get people interested in, in those domains, uh, I hope that they see the same thing we do in terms of, of the challenges and the opportunities it presents itself in the future. >>Awesome. I love your talk on intro track there falling. You mentioned, uh, the three key areas of DOD sec success, developing a government whole government approach to partnership with the private sector. I think that's critical and the allies prioritizing the right investments on resilience, innovation, adaptive operations, and responding to rapidly to effectively emerging technology. So you can be fast, all think are all things. I all, all those things are relevant. So given that, I want to get your thoughts on the defense space strategy in 2020, the DOD released dispense defense space, strategy, highlighting threats, and challenges and opportunities. How would you summarize those threats and those challenges and opportunities? What are the, what are those things that you're watching in the defense space area? Right. >>Well, I think, I think I saw, as I said before, of course, as well, you know, uh, or, or seeing that a space will be highly contested, uh, because it's a critical element in our, in our war fighting construct, uh, Dwayne, a future conflict, I think we need to, to win space as well. So when you, when you look at our near peer adversaries, there's a lot of efforts, uh, in trying to, to, to take that advantage away from the United States. So, so the threat is real, uh, and I think it's going to continue to evolve and grow. Uh, and the more we use space, both commercial and government, I think you're going to see a lot more when these threads some AFAs itself, uh, in, in forms of cyber, cyber attacks, or even kinetic attacks in some cases as needed. Uh, so yeah, so with the, the, the threat is need growing, uh, space is congested, as we talked about, it will continually be contested in the future as well. So we need to have, uh, like we do now in, in, in all the other domains, a way to defend it. And that's what we're working on with India, with the, how do we pilot with tech, our assets in space, and how do we make sure that the data information that traverses through space assets are trust 40, um, and, uh, and, and, and free of any, uh, uh, interference >>Chris, exciting time. I'm your, if you're in technology, um, this is crossing many lines here, tech society will war time, defense, new areas, new tech. I mean, it's security, it's intoxicating at many levels, because if you think about it, it's not one thing. It's not one thing anymore. It spans a broader spectrum, these opportunities. >>Yeah. And I, and I think that expansion is, is a natural outgrowth from, as our microprocessors and chips and technology continue to shrink smaller and smaller. You know, we, we think of our, our cell phones and our handheld devices and tablets, and so on that have just continued to, uh, get embedded in our everyday society, our everyday way of life. And that's a natural extension when we start applying those to space systems. When we think of smallsats and cube sets and the technology that's, uh, can be repurposed into, uh, a small vehicle and the cost has come down so dramatically that, you know, we, we can afford to get a rapid experiments, rapid, um, exploitations and, and different approaches in space and learn from those and repeat them very quickly and very rapidly. And that applies itself very well to an agile development process, dev sec ops, and this notion of spins and cycles and refreshing and re uh, addressing priorities very quickly so that when we do put a new technology up, that the technology is very lean and cutting edge, and hasn't been years and years in the making, but it's, uh, relevant and new, and the, uh, the cybersecurity and the vulnerabilities of that have to be addressed because of, and allow that DevSecOps process to take place so that we can look at those vulnerabilities and get that new technology and those new, new experiments and demonstrations in space and get lessons learned from them over and over again. >>Well, that brings us to the next big topic I want to spend the remainder of our time on that is workforce this next generation. If I wasn't so old, I would quit my job and I would join medially. It's so much, it's a fun, it's exciting. And it's important. And this is what I think is a key point is that cybersecurity in and of itself has got a big gap of shortage of workers, nevermind, adding space to it. So this is, uh, the intersection of space and cybersecurity. There is a workforce opportunity for this next generation, a young person to person re-skilling, this is a big deal. Bong, you have thoughts on this. It's not just STEM, it's everything. >>Yeah. It's everything, you know, uh, the opportunities would have in space it's significant and tremendous. And I think, uh, if I were young, again, as you pointed out, John, uh, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm lucky that I'm in this domain in this world and I started years ago. Uh, but it continues to be exciting, uh, lots of, lots of opportunities, you know, and when you, when you look at, uh, some of the commercial space, uh, systems that are being, being put up, uh, if you look at, I mentioned Starlink before, and, and, uh, Amazon's Kuyper constellation. These guys are talking about couple of thousand satellites in space to provide ubiquitous communications for internet globally and that sort of thing. Uh, and they're not the only ones that are out there producing capability. Uh, we're seeing a lot more commercial imagery products being developed by bike, by companies, both within the U S and, and, uh, foreign foreign elements as well. So I think it's an exciting time to be in space. Certainly lots of opportunities, there's technical challenges, uh, galore in terms of, you know, not only the overcoming the physics of space, but being able to operate, uh, flexibly, uh, in, uh, get the most you can out of the capabilities we have, uh, uh, operating up as high as being cool. I mean, everyone looks at launch. >>She gets millions of views on live streams, the on demand, reruns get millions and millions of views. Um, it's, there's a lot of things there. Um, so Chris, what specifically could you share are things that people would work on? Um, jobs skills, what are some, what's the aperture, what's it look like if you zoom out and look at all the opportunities from a scale standpoint, what's out there, >>We'll talk to the aperture, but I want to give a shout out to our space force. And I mean, their, their job is to train and equip, uh, future space and, uh, that, that space talent. And I think that's going to be a huge plus up, uh, to have, uh, uh, a space force that's dedicated to training equipping, uh, the, an acquisition and a deployment model that, uh, will benefit not just the other services, but all of our national defense and our, uh, you know, our, our strategic way of, uh, how, how this company, country, employees space, uh, altogether. So having, having a space for us, I think, as a, is a huge, uh, a huge issue. And then to get to that aperture aspect of, of what you're, what you're asking and, you know, that addresses a larger workforce. Uh, we need so many different talents in, in this area. >>Uh, we can, we can have, we can employ a variety of people, uh, from technical writers to people who write, uh, write in developed software to those who, uh, are bending metal and actually, uh, working in a hardware environment. And, uh, those that do planning and launch operations and all of those spectrums and issues of jobs, or are directly related to a workforce that can contribute to, to space. And then once that data gets to the ground and employed out to a user, whether it's a data or we're looking at, uh, from a sensor recent, uh, recent events on, uh, shipping lanes, those types of things. So space has such a wide and diverse swath that the aperture's really wide open, uh, for a variety of backgrounds. And, and those that, uh, really just want to take an opportunity, take a, take a technical degree or a degree that, uh, can apply itself to a tough problem, uh, because they certainly exist in space. And we can, we can use that mindset of problem solving, whether you come at it from a hacker mindset, an ethical, a white hat approach to testing and vulnerability exploration, or somebody who knows how to actually, um, make, uh, operations, uh, safer, better, uh, through space situation awareness. So there's a, there's a huge swath of opportunity for us >>Bon talk about the, um, the cyber security enabled environment, the use cases that are possible when you have cybersecurity in play with space systems, um, which is in and of itself, a huge range of jobs, codings supply chain. We just talked about a bunch of them. There's still more connected use cases that go beyond that, that, that are enabled by it. If you think about it, and this is what the students at Cal poly and every other college and university community college, you name it, or watching videos on YouTube, anyone with a brain can jump in. If they, if they see the future, it's an all net new space force is driving awareness, but there's a whole slew of these new use cases that I call space enabled by cybersecurity systems. Your thoughts. >>Absolutely. I, you know, I was, uh, had planned on attending the, uh, uh, the cyber challenge that's Cal poly had planned in June, of course, a pandemic, uh, uh, took care of that plan. But, but I was intrigued by, by the approach that the Cal poly was taking with, with, uh, middle school and high school kids of, of, of, of exposing him to a problem set here. You have a, a satellite that came down from space, uh, and, uh, part of the challenge was to do Porensic analysis on the debris, uh, the remaining pieces of the sound like to figure out what happened. Uh, it had a, uh, a cybersecurity connotation. It was hacked. It was attacked by, by cyber threat nation, took it down. And the beauty of having these kids kind of play with, with the remaining parts of the satellite figure out what happened. >>So I was pretty exciting. I was really looking forward to participating in that, but again, the pandemic kind of blew that up, but I, I look forward to future events like that to, to get our young people intrigued and interested in, uh, in this new field of space. Now, you know, Chris was talking earlier about opportunities, the opportunity that you talk about, you know, while I would like to have people come to the government, right. To help us out. It's not, it's not just focused on government, right? There's not lots of opportunities in commercial space. I, if you will, uh, for, for a lot of talent to, uh, uh, to have, uh, to participate in. So the challenge is a man's government and the commercial sector, John, >>I mean, you get the hardcore, you know, I want to work for the DOD. I want to work for NSA. I want to work for the government. You clearly got people who want to have that kind of mission, but for the folks out there, Chris and bong that are like, I'll do I qualify it? It's like the black box of the DOD. It's like a secret thing. You got any clearance, you've got to get all these certifications. And you've got to take all kinds of tests and background checks. And, um, is it like that? And will that continue? Cause some people might say, Hey, can I even get involved? What do I do? So I know there's some private partnerships going on with companies out there in the private sector. So this is now a new, you guys seem to be partnering and going outside the comfort zone of the old kind of tactical things. What are some of those opportunities that people could get involved that they might not know about >>PR for NSA, there's a variety of workforce, uh, initiatives that, uh, uh, for anybody from a high school work study can take advantage of to, uh, those that would like have to have internships. And those that are in a traditional academic environment, there's, uh, several NSA schools across the country that have a academic and cyber acts, uh, sites of excellence that participate in projects that are shepherded and mentored by those at NSA that can get those tough problems that don't have maybe a classified or super sensitive, uh, nature that that can be worked in and in an academia environment. So, so those are two or three examples of how somebody can break into, uh, the, uh, an intelligence organization and the, and the other agencies have those, uh, opportunities as well across the intelligence community and the, the partnership between and collaborative collaboration between private industry and the agencies and the department of defense just continue to grow over and over again. And even myself being able to take care advantage of a joint duty assignment between my home organization and the Pentagon just shows another venue of somebody that's in one organization can partner and leverage with another organization as well. So I'm an example of, of that partnering that's going on today. >>So there's some innovation, bong, non traditional pathways to find talent. What are out there? What are new, what are these new nontraditional ways >>I was going to add to what Chris was, was mentioning John? Yeah. Even within view and under the purview of our chief information officer, back in 2013, the deputy surfed dirty defense signed the, uh, what we call the DOD cyberspace workforce strategy, uh, into effect. And that included a program called the cyber information technology exchange program. It's an exchange program in which a, uh, you know, private sector employee and worked for the DOD in cyber security positions, uh, span across multiple mission critical areas. So this is one opportunity to learn, uh, you know, in inside the DOD what's happening as a private sector person, if you will, uh, going back to what we talked about, you know, kinda, uh, opportunities, uh, within the government for, for somebody who might be interested, uh, you know, you don't have to be super smart, Bork and space. Uh, there's a lot of like, like Chris pointed out, there's a lot of different areas that we need to have people down within people to do, uh, to conduct the mission space. So you don't have to be mathematician mathematician. You don't have to be an engineer to succeed in this business. I think there's plenty of opportunities for, for any types of, of talent, any type of academic disciplines that, that, that, that they're out there. >>And I think, you know, Chris is shout out to the space force is really worth calling out again, because I think to me, that's a big deal. It's a huge deal. It's going to change the face of our nation and society. So super, super important. And that's going to rise the tide. I think it's gonna create, uh, some activation, uh, for a younger generation, certainly, and kind of new opportunities, new problems to solve new threats to take on and, and move it on. So really super conversation space in cybersecurity, the department of defense perspective, Von and Chris, thank you for taking the time. I'd love you guys just to close out. We'll start with you bong. And then Chris summarize for the folks watching, whether it's a student at Cal poly or other university or someone in industry and government, what is the department of defense perspective for space cybersecurity? >>Chris, won't go and take that on. I started, thank you. Uh, cyber security applies to much more than just the launch and download of mission data or human led exploration and the planning, testing, and experiments in the lab prior to launch require that cyber protection, just as much as any other space link, ground segment, trust rail network, or user data, and any of that loss of intellectual property or proprietary data is an extremely valuable and important, and really warrants, cybersecurity safeguards in any economic espionage or data exfiltration or denied access to that data I E ransomware or some other, uh, attack that can cripple any business or government endeavor. Uh, no matter how small or large, if it's left in our economic backbone, uh, clearly depends on space and GPS is more than just a direction finding our banking needs that a T and timing from P and T or whether it says systems that protect our shipping and airline industry of whether they can navigate and go through a particular storm or not, uh, even fighting forest fires picked up by a remote sensor. >>All those space-based assets, uh, require protection from spoofing date, uh, data denial or total asset loss. An example would be if a satellite sensitive optics were intentionally pointed at the sun and damaged, or if a command, uh, to avoid collision with another space vehicle was delayed or disrupted or a ground termination command. As we just saw just a few days ago at T minus three seconds prior to liftoff, if those all don't go as planned, uh, those losses are real and can be catastrophic. So the threat to space is pervasive real and genuine, and your active work across all those platforms is a necessary and appreciated. And your work in this area is critical, uh, going forward going forward. Uh, thank you for this opportunity to speak with you and, uh, talking on this important topic. >>Thank you, Chris Henson, goodbye. >>Closing remarks. Yeah. Likewise, John, uh, again, uh, as, as Chris said, thank you for, for the opportunity to discuss this very important, uh, around space, cyber security, as well as addressing, uh, at the end there, we were talking about workforce development and the need to have, uh, people, uh, in the mix for four features. We discussed with you. We need to start that recruiting early, uh, as we're doing to address, uh, the STEM gap today, we need to apply the same thing for cybersecurity. We, we absolutely need smart, innovative people to protect both Iraq. Anomic wellbeings a nation as well as our national defense. So this is the right conversation to have at this time, John and I, again, thank you and our Cal poly hose for, or, uh, having a symposium and, and having this opportunity to have this dialogue. Thank you, >>Gentlemen. Thank you for your time and great insights. We couldn't be there in person. We're here virtual for the space and cybersecurity symposium, 2020, the Cal poly I'm Jennifer with Silicon angle and the cube, your host. Thank you for watching.

>> Voiceover: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, covering Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly. >> Hello everyone? Welcome to the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly and theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. We have a great session here. Space cybersecurity, the Department of Defense perspective. We have Bong Gumahad, Director of C4ISR, Directorate Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment for the DOD. And Chris Henson, Technical Director Space and Weapons, Cybersecurity Solutions for the National Security Agency. Gentlemen, thank you for taking the time for this awesome session. >> Thank you, John. >> Thank you. >> So we're going to talk about the perspective of the DOD relative to space cybersecurity. A lot going on, congestion, contention, freedom, evolution, innovation. So Bong, I'd like to have you start with your opening statement on how you see the space cybersecurity perspective. >> John, thanks for the intro, really appreciate it. First, let me give my thanks to Cal Poly for convening the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium this year. And despite the pandemic, the organization and the content delivery is pretty impressive. I really foot stomping what can possibly be done with a number of these virtual platforms. This has been awesome, thanks for the opportunity. I also want to recognize my colleague, Chris Henson from NSA, who is actually assigned to our staff at the OUSD, but he brings both policy and technical perspective in this whole area. So I think you'll find his commentary and positions on things very refreshing for today's seminar. Now space cybersecurity is a pretty interesting terminology for us all. Cybersecurity means protecting against cyber threats. And it's really more than just computers here on earth. Space is the newest war fighting domain and cybersecurity is perhaps even more of a challenge in this domain than others. I'm sure Lieutenant General Thompson and Major John Shaw discuss the criticality of this new Space Force. It's the newest military service in the earlier sessions and they're at the risk of repeating what they already addressed. Let me start by talking about what space means to DOD and what we're doing directly from my advantage point as part of the Acquisition and Sustainment arm of the Pentagon. Well, what I want to share with you today is how the current space strategy ties into the National Defense strategy and supports the department's operational objectives. As the director of C4ISR, I have come to understand how the integration of C4ISR capability is a powerful asset to enhance the lethality of the joint war fighter. Secretary Lord, our boss, the Under Secretary for Acquisition and Sustainment is diligent in her pursuit to adapt and modernize acquisition processes, to influence the strategy and to focus our efforts to make our objectives a reality. I think first and foremost, we are building a more lethal force. This joint force will project lethality in contested environments and across all domains through an operationally integrated and resiliency 4ISR infrastructure. We are also cultivating our alliances, deepening interoperability, which is very important in a future fight and collaboratively planning with those who partner with us in the fight. Most significantly for our work in acquisition and sustainment, we continue to optimize the department for greater performance and affordability through reform of the acquisition process. Now space is our newest fighting domain. And while it is indeed unique, it shares many common traits with the others, land, air and sea. All are important to the defense of the US. In conflict, no doubt about this, they will be contested and they must be defended. One domain will not win future conflicts and in a joint operation in a future fight and the future conflict they must all succeed. I see three areas being key toward DOD strategic success in space. One, developing our whole of government approach in close partnership with the private sector and our allies. Two, prioritizing our investments in resiliency, innovation and adaptive operations. And third, responding rapidly and effectively to leverage emerging technologies and seize opportunities to advance US strengths, partnerships and alliances. Let me emphasize that space is increasingly congested and tested and demanded as essential to lethality operational effectiveness and the security of our nation. Now the commercialization space offers a broad set of investments in satellite technology, potential opportunities to leverage those investments and pathways to develop cost efficient space architecture, for the department and the nation. It's funny, there's a new race, a race for space, if you will, between commercial companies buying for dominance of space. Now the joint staff within DOD is currently building an operational construct to employ and engage as a unified force coordinated across all domains. We call it the Joint All Domain Command and Control, JADC2. It is the framework that is under development to allow us to conduct integrated operations in the future. The objective of JADC2 is to provide the war fighter access to the decision making information while providing mission assurance of the information and resilience of the underlying terrestrial air in space networks that support them. Operationally, JADC2 seeks to maintain seamless integration, adaptation, and employment of our capability to sense signal, connect, transmit, process control, direct, and deliver lethal capabilities against the enemy. We gain a strategic advantage through the integration of these capabilities across all the domains, by providing balance space awareness, horse protection, and weapons controlled and deployment capabilities. Now successfully any ratings in these systems and capabilities will provide our war fighters overwhelming superiority on the battlefield in an environment challenged by near peer adversaries, as well as non state actors. In space, the character of its employment is changing, driven by increasing demands, not just by DOD, but by the commercial sector as well. You know, more and more we see greater use of small satellite systems to address a myriad of emerging questions, ubiquitous communications, awareness, sensory diversity, and many more. As I said before, the commercial world is pioneering high rate production of small satellites in their efforts to deploy hundreds, if not thousands of nodes. SpaceX Starlink Constellation is one example. Another one is Amazon's Kuiper. Kuiper just received FCC approval to deploy like over 3000 of these different nodes. While a number of these companies continue to grow, some have struggled. Case in point is OneWeb. Nevertheless, the appetite remains strong and DOD is taken advantage of these advances to support our missions. We are currently exploring how to better integrate the DOD activities involving small satellites under the small satellite coordinating activity, scholarly call it. We want to ensure collaboration and interoperability to maximize efficiency in acquisition and operation. When we started this activity on over a year and a half ago, we documented over 70 plus separate small sat programs within DOD. And now we've developed a very vibrant community of interest surrounding our small satellites. Now, part of the work we have identified nine focus areas for further development. These are common areas to all systems and by continuing to expand on these, our plan is to enable a standard of practice that can be applied across all of the domains. This includes lawn services, ground processing distribution, and of course, a topic of interest to the symposium space security and Chris will talk more about that, being that he's the expert in this area. One challenge that we can definitely start working on today is workforce development. Cybersecurity is unique as it straddles STEM and security and policy. The trade craft is different. And unfortunately I've seen estimates recently suggesting a workforce gap in the next several years, much like the STEM fields. During the next session, I am a part of a panel with president Armstrong at Cal Poly, and Steve Jacques, the founder of the National Security Space Association to address workforce development. But for this panel, I'll look forward to having this dialogue surrounding space cybersecurity with Chris and John. Thank you, John. >> Bong, thank you for that opening statement and yes, workforce gaps, we need the new skill space is here. Thank you very much. Chris Henson's Technical Director of Space and Weapons, Cybersecurity Solutions for the National Security Agency. Your opening statement. >> Thank you for having me. I'm one of several technical leaders in space at the National Security Agency. And I'm currently on a joint duty assignment at the office of Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment. I work under Mr. Gumahad in the C4ISR area. But almost 63 years ago, on the 4th of October, 1957, Sputnik was the first artificial satellite launched by the Soviet Union and space history was made. And each of you can continue to write future space history in your careers. And just like in 1957, the US isn't alone in space to include our close partnerships and longterm activities with organizations like the Japanese Space Agency, the European Space Agency and the Canadian Space Agency, just to name a few. And when we tackle cybersecurity per space, we have to address the idea that the communications command and control and those mission datas will transverse networks owned and operated by a variety of partners, not only .go, .mil, .com, .edu, et cetera. We need to have all the partners address the cyber effects of those systems because the risk accepted by one is shared by all. And sharing cyber best practices, lessons learned, data vulnerabilities, threat data mitigation procedures, all our valuable takeaways in expanding the space community, improving overall conditions for healthy environment. So thank you for having me, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you and your audience. And I look forward to the discussion questions, thank you. >> Thank you, Chris, thank you, Bong. Okay, I mean, open innovation, the internet, you see plenty of examples. The theme here is partners, commercial, government. It's going to take a lot of people and tech companies and technologies to make space work. So we asked my first question, Bong, we'll start with you is what do you see as the DOD's role in addressing cybersecurity in space? It's real, it's a new frontier. It's not going away, it's only going to get more innovative, more open, more contested. It seems like a lot to do there. What's your role in addressing cyber security in space? >> I think our role is to be the leader in developing not only is it the strategy, but the implementation plans to ensure a full of cybersecurity. If you look at the National Cyber Strategy, I think published in 2018, calls for like-minded countries, industry academia, and civil society. Once you mentioned John, the support technology development, digital safety policy, advocacy, and research. You here today, and those listening are fulfilling their strategy. When you develop, enable use cyber hygiene products as examples and capabilities, you're pushing the goal to provision. When you know what's on your network, patch network, backup and encrypt your network, you're hardening and preventing cyber attacks. And we in government academia, in the case of Cal Poly, civil networks and in commercial companies, we all benefit from doing that. Cyber security, and I think Chris will definitely back me up on this, more than passwords encryption or firewall. It's truly a mindset and a culture of enabling mission to succeed in assured and in a resilient fashion. >> Chris, you're take and reaction to the cybersecurity challenge involved here. >> It's starting really at the highest level of governments. We have, you know, the recent security policy Directive-5 that just came out just a couple of days ago, recognize all the factors of cybersecurity that need to come into play. And probably the most important outcome of that as Mr. Gumahad said, is the leadership role. And that leadership blends out very well into partnership. So partnership with industry, partnership with academia, partnership with other people that are exploring space. And those partnerships blend itself very naturally to sharing cybersecurity issues, topics, as we come up with best practices, as we come up with mitigation strategies, and as we come up with vulnerabilities and share that information. We're not going to go alone in space, just like we're probably not going to go alone in many other industries or areas. That the DOD has to be involved in many spectrums of deploying to space. And that deployment involves, as Mr. Gumahad said, encryption, authentication, knowing what's on the network, knowing the fabric of that network, and if nothing else, this internet of things and work from home environment that we've partaken of these last few months has even explored and expanded that notion even more dramatically as we have people dial in from all over the different locations. Well, space will be that natural node, that natural next network in measure involvement that we'll have to protect and explore on, not just from a terrestrial involvement, but all segments of it. The calm segment, the space vehicle, and the ground portion. >> You know, Bong, we talked about this in our other segment around with the president of Cal Poly, but the operating models of the Space Force and of the DOD and getting to space. But it's a software defined world, right? So cybersecurity is a real big issue 'cause you have an operating model that's requiring software to power these low hanging satellites. That's just an extension to the network. It's distributed computing, we know what this is. If you understand what technology we do in space, it's no different, it's just a different environment so it's software defined. That just lends itself well to hacking. I mean, if I'm a hacker I'm going, "Hey, why not just take out a satellite and crash it down "or make the GPS do something different?" I mean, it's definitely an attack vector. This is a big deal. It's not just like getting credentials that are cashed on a server, you got to really protect. >> Right, because in one hand it space will carry not only focal national security information, but if you look at the economic wellbeing, the financial state of a lot of countries, institutions, you know, more and more John, they'll be using space assets to make all that happen. So, and if you look at the, you mentioned the attack vectors in space. It's not just the computers in the ground, but if you look at the whole life cycle for satellite systems in space, the tasking that you need to do, the command and controlling of the vehicle, the data that comes down in the ground, even when you launch the birds, the satellites, you know, they all need to be protected because they're all somewhat vulnerable to hacking, to cyber attacks. Especially as we grow into commercialization space, it's going to be a lot more people out there playing in this world. It's going to be a lot more companies out there. And, you know, it's hard to track, the potential of foreign influences as an example, and therefore the potential of being vulnerable in terms of the cyber threat. >> Gentlemen, like you guys said to move on to this leadership role, Bong, you mentioned it. You want to be a leader, I get it, the DOD is Department of Defense, it's a new frontier to defend war time zone, you mentioned war time opportunity potentially. But how do you guys assist that's term hat to getting done? Because there's public and private space operations happening, there's security challenge. What does being a leader mean? And how does the DOD, Department of Defense assist driving the public and private? Do you lead from a project standpoint? Do you lead from a funding standpoint? Is it architectural? I mean, you're talking about now a new end-to-end architecture. It's not just cloud it's on premise, it's in devices, it's offloaded with new AI technology and nix and devices. It's IOT, it's all this and all new. This is all new. What does it mean for the DOD to be a leader and how do you assist others to get involved? And what does that mean? >> Yeah, I think the one hand, you know, DOD used to lead in terms of being the only source of funding for a lot of highly developmental efforts. We're seeing a different story in space. Again, I keep going back to the commercialization of space. We're seeing a lot more players, right? So in many ways allies commercial companies are actually leading the R&D of a lot different technology. So we certainly want to take advantage of that. So from a leadership standpoint, I think leadership can come in, by partnering a lot more with the commercial companies. In 2020, the DOD released the Defense Space Strategy, as an example, that highlights the threats, the challenges and opportunities the United States has faced by setting example of how we counter the threats that are out there, not just the DOD, but the civilian and the commercial sector as well. Our current conditions are strong, but we want to use four lines of effort to meet our challenges and capitalize on our desire to state space. Our lines of effort include building a comprehensive military badges space, integrating space into a national joint and combined operations, like I mentioned before. Shaping that strategic environment and cooperating with allies, partners in industry and other US governmental departments and agencies to advance the cost of space. To take full advantage of what space can provide us in DOD and the nation. >> Chris as a domain now, what's your take on all of this? Because again, it's going to take more people, more diverse, potentially more security hauls. What's your view on this? >> Well, let's look at how innovation and new technologies can help us in these areas. So, and mentioned it a couple of topics that you hit on already. One of the areas that we can improve on is certainly in the architecture. Where we look at a zero trust architecture, one of the NIST standards that's come about. Where it talks about the authentication, the need to know a granular approach, this idea of being able to protect, not just data, but the resources and how people can get access to those, whether they're coming in through an identification, authentication credential, or other aspects of the idea of not just anybody should be able to have access to data or anybody should have access once they're on the inside of the network. So that zero trust architecture is one approach where we can show some leadership and guidance. Another area is in a topic that you touched on as well, was in the software area. So some innovations are coming on very rapidly and strong in this artificial intelligence and machine learning. So if we can take this AI and ML and apply it to our software development areas, they can parse so much information very quickly. And you know, this vast array of software code that's going into system nowadays. And then that frees up our human exquisite talent and developers that can then look at other areas and not focus on minor vulnerability, fix a vulnerability. They can really use their unique skills and talents to come up with a better process, a better way, and let the artificial intelligence and machine learning, find those common problems, those unknown hidden lines of code that get put into a software library and then pull down over and over again from system to system. So I think between an architecture leadership role and employee innovation are two areas that we can show some benefits and process improvement to this whole system. >> That's a great point, Chris, and you think about just the architectural computer architecture network attached storage is an advantage software defined there. You could have flash, all flash arrays for storage. You could have multiple cores on a device. And this new architecture, offloads things, and it's a whole new way to gain efficiencies. I mean, you got Intel, you got Nvidia, you've got armed, all the processors all built in. So there's definitely been commercial best practices and benefits to a new kind of architecture that takes advantage of these new things. It's just efficiencies. But this brings up the whole supply chain conversation. I want to get your thoughts on this because there is talk about predatory investments and access and tactics to gain supply chain access to space systems, your thoughts? >> Yeah, it's a serious threat and not just for the US space supply chain, if you will, is the supply chain you access with large, I think it's a threat that's this real we're seeing today. I just saw an example recently involving, I think our law and services, where there was a foreign threat that was trying to get into a troop through with predatory investments. So it is something that we need to be aware of, it's happening and will continue to happen. It's an easy way to gain access to do our IP. And so it's something that we are serious about in terms of awareness and countering. >> Chris, your thoughts? I mean, I'm an open source guy. We've seen it when I grew up in the industry in the '80s open source became a revolution. But with that, it enabled new tactics for state sponsored attacks and that became a domain in of itself. That's well-documented and people talk about that all the time in cyber. Now you have open innovation with hardware, software connected systems. This is going to bring a supply chain nightmare. How do you track it all? (chuckles) Who's got what software and what device... Where the chip from? Who made it? Just the potential is everywhere. How do you see these tactics? Whether it's a VC firm from another country or this, that, and the other thing, startup, big company-- >> Yeah, so when we see coal companies being purchased by foreign investors, and, you know, we can get blocked out of those, whether it's in the food industry, or if it's in a microchip. Then that microchip could be used in a cell phone or a satellite or an automobile. So all of our are industries that have these companies that are being purchased or a large born investment influx into those, they can be suspect. And we have to be very careful with those and do the tracking of those, especially when those, some of those parts and mechanisms are coming from off shore. And again, going back to the Space Policy Directive-5, it calls out for better supply chain, resource management, the tracking, the knowing the pedigree and the quantitative ability of knowing where those software libraries came from, where the parts came from, and the tracking and delivery of that from an end-to-end system. And typically when we have a really large vendor, they can do that really well. But when we have a subcontractor to a subcontractor, to a subcontractor, their resources may not be such that they can do that tracking in mitigation for counterfeits or fraudulent materials going into our systems. So it's a very difficult challenge, and we want to ensure as best we can that as we ingest those parts, as we ingest those software libraries and technologies into the system, that before we employ them, we have to do some robust testing. And I don't want to say that's the last line of defense, but that certainly is a mechanism for finding out do the systems perform as they stated on a test bench or a flat set, whatever the case may be, before we actually deploy it. And then we're relying on the output or the data that comes from that system that may have some corrupt or suspect parts in it. >> Great point, this federal views-- >> The problem with space systems is kind of, you know, is once you launch the bird or the satellite, your access to it is diminished significantly, right? Unless you go up there and take it down. So, you know, kind of to Chris's point, we need to be able to test all the different parts to ensure that is performing as described there, as specified with good knowledge that it's trustworthy. And so we do that all on the ground before we take it up to launch it. >> It's funny, you want agility, you want speed, and you security, and you want reliability, and risk management. All aggressive, and it's a technical problem, it's a business model problem. Love to get real quick before we jump into some of the more workforce and gap issues on the personnel side, have you guys to just take a minute to explain quickly what's the federal view? If you had to kind of summarize the federal view of the DOD and the role with it wants to take, so all the people out there on the commercial side or students out there who are wanting to jump in, what is the current modern federal view of space cybersecurity? >> Chris, why don't you take that on and I'll follow up. >> Okay, I don't know that I can give you the federal view, but I can certainly give you the Department of Defense that cyber security is extremely important. And as our vendors and our suppliers take on a very, very large and important role, one area that we're looking at improving on is a cyber certification maturity model, where we look at the vendors and how they implement and employee cyber hygiene. So that guidance in and of itself shows the emphasis of cyber security. That when we want to write a contract or a vendor for a purchase that's going to go into a space system, we'd like to know from a third party audit capability, can that vendor protect and defend to some extent the amount that that part or piece or software system is going to have a cyber protection already built into it from that vendor, from the ground floor up, before it even gets put into a larger system. So that shows a level of the CMMC process that we've thought about and started to employ beginning in 2021 and will be further built on in the out years. How important the DOD takes that. And other parts of the government are looking at this. In fact, other nations are looking at the CMMC model. So I think it shows a concern in very many areas, not just in the Department of Defense, that they're going to adopt an approach like this. So it shows the pluses and the benefits of a cybersecurity model that all can build on. >> Bong, your reaction. >> Yeah, I'll just add to that. John, you asked earlier about, you know, how do we track commercial entities or people into the space and cyber security domains? I can tell you that at least my view of it, space and cybersecurity are new. It's exciting, it's challenging, a lot of technical challenges there. So I think in terms of attracting the right people and personnel to work those areas, I think it's not only intellectually challenging, but it's important for the defensing and near States. And it's important for economic security at large for us as well. So I think in terms of a workforce and trying to get people interested in those domains, I hope that they see the same thing we do in terms of the challenges and the opportunities it presents itself in the future. >> Awesome, I loved your talk on intro track there. Bong, you mentioned the three key areas of DOD success, developing a whole government approach to partnership with the private sector. I think that's critical, and the allies. Prioritizing the right investments on resilience, innovation, adaptive operations, and responding to rapidly to effectively emerging technology seem to be fast. I think all those things are relevant. So given that, I want to get your thoughts on the Defense Space Strategy. In 2020, the DOD released dispense Defense Space Strategy, highlighting threats, and challenges and opportunities. How would you summarize those threats and those challenges and opportunities? What are those things that you're watching in the defense space area? >> Right, well, I think as I said before, Chris as well, you know, we're seeing that space will be highly contested because it's a critical element in our war fighting construct. To win our future conflict, I think we need to win space as well. So when you look at our near peer adversaries, there's a lot of efforts in China to take that advantage away from the United States. So the threat is real, and I think it's going to continue to evolve and grow. And the more we use space, for both commercial and government, I think you're going to see a lot more when these threats, some AFAs itself in forms of cyber attacks, or even kinetic attacks in some cases as needed. So, yeah, so the threat is indeed growing, space is congested, as we talked about, it will continually be contested in the future as well. So we need to have, like we do now in all the other domains, a way to defend it. And that's what we're working on within DOD. How do we protect our assets in space, and how do we make sure that the data information that traverses through space assets are trustworthy and free of any interference. >> Chris, exciting time, I'm mean, if you're in technology, this is crossing many lines here, tech, society, war time defense, new areas, new tech. I mean, it's security, it's intoxicating at many levels because if you think about it, it's not one thing. It's not one thing anymore. It spans a broader spectrum, these opportunities. >> Yeah and I think that expansion is a natural outgrowth from, as our microprocessors and chips and technology continue to shrink smaller and smaller. You know, we think of our cell phones and our handheld devices and tablets and so on that have just continued to get embedded in our everyday society, our everyday way of life. And that's a natural extension when we start applying those to space systems, when we think of smallsats and cube sets and the technology that's can be repurposed into a small vehicle, and the cost has come down so dramatically that, you know, we can afford to get rapid experiments, rapid exploitations and different approaches in space and learn from those and repeat them very quickly and very rapidly. And that applies itself very well to an agile development process, DevSecOps, and this notion of spins and cycles and refreshing and re-addressing priorities very quickly so that when we do put a new technology up, that the technology is very lean and cutting edge, and hasn't been years and years in the making, but it's relevant and new. And the cybersecurity and the vulnerabilities of that have to be addressed and allow that DevSecOps process to take place so that we can look at those vulnerabilities and get that new technology and those new experiments and demonstrations in space and get lessons learned from them over and over again. >> Well, that brings us to the next big topic. I want to spend the remainder of our time on, that is workforce, this next generation. If I wasn't so old, I would quit my job and I would join immediately. It's so much fun, it's exciting, and it's important. And this is what I think is a key point is that cybersecurity in and of itself has got a big gap of shortage of workers, nevermind adding space to it. So this is the intersection of space and cybersecurity. There is a workforce opportunity for this next generation, young person to person re-skilling, this is a big deal. Bong, you have thoughts on this? It's not just STEM, it's everything. >> Yeah, it's everything, you know, the opportunities we have in space, it's significant and tremendous. And I think if I were young again, as you pointed out, John, you know, I'm lucky that I'm in this domain in this world and I started years ago, but it continues to be exciting, lots of opportunities, you know. When you look at some of the commercial space systems are being put up, if you look at, I mentioned Starlink before and Amazon's Kuiper Constellation. These guys are talking about couple of thousand satellites in space to provide ubiquitous communications for internet globally, and that sort of thing. And they're not the only ones that are out there producing capability. We're seeing a lot more commercial imagery products being developed by companies, both within the US and foreign elements as well. So I think it's an exciting time to be in space. Certainly lots of opportunities. There's technical challenges galore in terms of not only the overcoming the physics of space, but being able to operate flexibly and get the most you can out of the capabilities we have operating up in space. >> Besides being cool, I mean, everyone looks at launch of space gets millions of views on live streams, the On-Demand reruns get millions and millions of views. There's a lot of things there. So, Chris, what specifically could you share are things that people would work on? Jobs, skills, what's the aperture? What's it look like if you zoom out and look at all the opportunities from a scale standpoint, what's out there? >> I'll talk to the aperture, but I want to give a shout out to our Space Force. And I mean, their job is to train and equip each air space and that space talent. And I think that's going to be a huge plus up to have a Space Force that's dedicated to training, equipping, an acquisition and a deployment model that will benefit not just the other services, but all of our national defense and our strategic way of how this company, country employees space altogether. So having a Space Force, I think, is a huge issue. And then to get to that aperture aspect of what you're asking and that addresses a larger workforce, we need so many different talents in this area. We can employ a variety of people from technical writers, to people who write and develop software to those who bending metal and actually working in a hardware environment. And those that do planning and launch operations and all of those spectrums and issues of jobs, are directly related to a workforce that can contribute to space. And then once that data gets to the ground and employed out to a user, whether it's a weather data, or we're looking at from a sensor, recent events on shipping lanes, those types of things. So space has such a wide and diverse swath that the aperture's really wide open for a variety of backgrounds. And those that really just want to take an opportunity, take a technical degree, or a degree that can apply itself to a tough problem, because they certainly exist in space. And we can use that mindset of problem solving, whether you come at it from a hacker mindset, an ethical, white hat approach to testing and vulnerability exploration. Or somebody who knows how to actually make operations safer, better through space situation awareness. So there's a huge swath of opportunity for us. >> Bong, talk about the cybersecurity enabled environment, the use cases that are possible when you have cybersecurity in play with space systems, which is in and of itself, a huge range of jobs, codings, supply chain, we just talked about a bunch of them. There's still more connected use cases that go beyond that, that are enabled by it, if you think about it. And this is what the students at Cal Poly and every other college and university, community college, you name it, who are watching videos on YouTube. Anyone with a brain can jump in if they see the future. It's all net news. Space Force is driving awareness, but there's a whole slew of these new use cases that I call space enabled by cyber secure systems. Your thoughts? >> Absolutely, I was had planned on attending the Cyber Challenge that's Cal Poly had planned in June. Of course, the pandemic took care of that plan, but I was intrigued by the approach that the Cal Poly was taking with middle school and high school kids of exposing him to a problem set. Here, you have a satellite that came down from space and part of the challenge was to do forensic analysis on the debris, the remaining pieces of the satellite to figure out what happened. It had a cyber cybersecurity connotation. It was hacked, it was attacked by cyber threat nation, took it down. And the beauty of having these kids kind of play with the remaining parts of the satellite, figure out what happened. So it was pretty exciting. I was really looking forward to participating in that, but again, the pandemic kind of blew that up, but I look forward to future events like that, to get our young people intrigued and interested in this new field of space. Now, Chris was talking earlier about opportunities, there're opportunities that you talk about, while I would like to have people come to the government, to help us out, it's not just focused on government. There's lots of opportunities in commercial space, if you will, for a lot of talent to participate in. So the challenge is immense, both government and the commercial sector, John. >> I mean, you get the hardcore, you know, I want to work for the DOD, I want to work for NSA, I want to work for the government. You clearly got people who want to have that kind of mission. But for the folks out there, Chris and Bong that are like, "Do I qualify?" It's like the black box of the DOD, it's like a secret thing, you got to get clearance, you've got to get all these certifications. And you got to take all kinds of tests and background checks. Is it like that, and will that continue? 'Cause some people might say, "Hey, can I even get involved? "What do I do?" So I know there's some private partnerships going on with companies out there in the private sector. So this is now a new, you guys seem to be partnering and going outside the comfort zone of the old kind of tactical things. What are some of those opportunities that people could get involved in that they might not know about? >> For NSA, there's a variety of workforce initiatives that for anybody from a high school work study can take advantage of to those that would like have to have internships. And those that are in a traditional academic environment, there's several NSA schools across the country that have academic and cyber sites of excellence that participate in projects that are shepherded and mentored by those at NSA that can get those tough problems that don't have maybe a classified or super sensitive nature that can be worked in and in an academia environment. So those are two or three examples of how somebody can break into an intelligence organization. And the other agencies have those opportunities as well across the intelligence community. And the partnership between and collaboration between private industry and the agencies and the Department of Defense just continue to grow over and over again. And even myself being able to take advantage of a joint duty assignment between my home organization and the Pentagon, just shows another venue of somebody that's in one organization can partner and leverage with another organization as well. So I'm an example of that partnering that's going on today. >> So there's some innovation. Bong, nontraditional pathways to find talent, what are out there, what are new? What are these new nontraditional ways? >> I was going to add to what Chris was mentioning, John. Even within DOD and under the purview of our chief information officer, back in 2013, the Deputy Secretary Defense signed the, what we call the DOD Cyberspace Workforce Strategy into effect. And that included a program called the Cyber Information Technology Exchange Program. It's an exchange program in which a private sector employee can work for the DOD in cyber security positions span across multiple mission critical areas. So this is one opportunity to learn, inside the DOD what's happening as a private sector person, if you will. Going back to what we talked about, kind of opportunities within the government for somebody who might be interested. You don't have to be super smart, dork in space, there's a lot of, like Chris pointed out, there's a lot of different areas that we need to have people, talented people to conduct the mission in space. So you don't have to be mathematician. You don't have to be an engineer to succeed in this business. I think there's plenty of opportunities for any types of talent, any type of academic disciplines that are out there. >> All right, thank you, and Chris's shout out to the Space Force is really worth calling out again, because I think to me, that's a big deal. It's a huge deal. It's going to change the face of our nation and society. So super, super important. And that's going to rise the tide. I think it's going to create some activation for a younger generation, certainly, and kind of new opportunities, new problems to solve, new threats to take on, and move it on. So really super conversation, space and cybersecurity, the Department of Defense perspective. Bong and Chris, thank you for taking the time. I'd love you guys just to close out. We'll start with you Bong and then Chris. Summarize for the folks watching, whether it's a student at Cal Poly or other university or someone in industry and government, what is the Department of Defense perspective for space cybersecurity? >> Chris, want to go and take that on? >> That's right, thank you. Cybersecurity applies to much more than just the launch and download of mission data or human led exploration. And the planning, testing, and experiments in the lab prior to launch require that cyber protection, just as much as any other space link, ground segment, trust rail network, or user data, and any of that loss of intellectual property or proprietary data is an extremely valuable and important, and really warrants cyber security safeguards. In any economic espionage, your data exfiltration, or denied access to that data, i.e. ransomware or some other attack, that can cripple any business or government endeavor, no matter how small or large, if it's left unprotected. And our economic backbone clearly depends on space. And GPS is more than just a direction finding, banking needs that T and timing from P and T or whether it just systems that protect our shipping and airline industry of whether they can navigate and go through a particular storm or not. Even fighting forest fires picked up by a remote sensor. All those space space assets require protection from spoofing date, data denial, or total asset loss. An example would be if a satellite sensitive optics or intentionally pointed at the sun and damaged, or if a command to avoid collision with another space vehicle was delayed or disrupted or a ground termination command as we just saw just a few days ago at T minus three seconds prior to liftoff, if those all don't go as planned, those losses are real and can be catastrophic. So the threat to space is pervasive, real and genuine, and your active work across all those platforms is necessary and appreciated. And your work in this area is critical going forward. Thank you for this opportunity to speak with you and talking on this important topic. Thank you, Chris Henson. Bong Gumahad, closing remarks? >> Yeah, likewise, John, again, as Chris said, thank you for the opportunity to discuss this very important around space cybersecurity, as well as addressing at the end there, we were talking about workforce development and the need to have people in the mix for future. (indistinct) We discussed, we need to start that recruiting early as we're doing to address the STEM gap today, we need to apply the same thing for cybersecurity. We absolutely need smart and innovative people to protect both our economic wellbeing as a nation, as well as our national defense. So this is the right conversation to have at this time, John. And again, thank you and Cal Poly host for having this symposium and having this opportunity to have this dialogue. Thank you. >> Gentlemen, thank you for your time and great insights. We couldn't be there in person. We're here virtual for the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, the Cal Poly. I'm John Furrier with SiliconANGLE and theCUBE, your host. Thank you for watching. (soft music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios and Palo Alto in Boston. Connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at our Palo Alto studio as kind of our on going leadership coverage of what's happening with the COVID crisis, and really looking out into our community to find experts who can provide tips and tricks, and some guidance as everyone is kind of charting these uncharted waters if you will. And we've got a great cube alarm in our database. He's a fantastic resourcer. We're excited to get him on. Share the information with you. We'd like to welcome once again, Darren Murph. He is the Head of Remote for GitLab. Darren, great to see you. >> Absolutely, great to be here. Thanks for having me. >> Absolutely, so thank you and. First off, we had you on earlier this year, back when things were normal, in kind of a regular review. Who knew that you would be at the center of the work-from-home universe just a few short months later. I mean, you've been doing this for ever. So it's kind of a wile old veteran of the work-from-home, or not even from home, just work from some place else. What are some top level things that you can share for people that have never experienced this before? >> Yeah, on the working front. If you're one of the people that are working from home, I think there's a couple of things you can do to help acclimate, make your world a little bit better. The first is to try to create some sort of separation between your work life and your personal life. Now if you have a home big enough that you can dedicate a workspace to being your office, that's going to help a lot. Help from a focus standpoint and just. You don't want those lines between work and life to blur too much, that's where isolation kicks in. That's where burnout kicks in. You want to do whatever you can to avoid. You got to remember, when you're not physically walking out of a office and disconnecting from work. You have to replicate that and recreate that. I actually recommend for people that used to have a commute and now they don't. I would actually black something in your calendar, whether that's cooking, cleaning, spending time with your family. Resting more, anything so that you ramp into your day very deliberately and ramp out of very deliberately. Now on the team leading front. I'm going to say it may feel a little counter intuitive, but the further your team is from you, the more distributed they are. The more you really need to let go and allow them to have mechanism for feeding back to you. Managers job in a remote setting switches from just being a pure director, you're actually being an unblocker. A really active listener. And for people who have gotten to a certain point in their career through command and control, this is going to feel very strange, jarring and counter intuitive, but we've seen it time and time again. You need to trust that your workers are in a new environment. You have to give them a mechanism feeding back to you to help them unblock whatever it is. >> You know that's funny, we had someone on as part of this the other day, talking about leaders need to change their objectives that they're managing to, from kind of activity based, to deliverals based. And it actually floored me that someone is still writing in a blog in 2020, that people have to change their management deliverables from activity to deliverables. And it was so funny, you know, you had Martin Mikos on, we had him on too. My favorite comment was, "It's so easy to fake it in the office and look busy, "but when you're at home all you have is your deliverable." so it really, it seems like there's kind of a forcing function to get people to pay attention to the things they should be managing to anyway. >> You said it, forcing functions. I talk about this all the time, but there are so many forcing functions in remote that help you do remote well. But not only just do remote well, just run your business well. Even if you plan on going back to office. On some level there's a lot of things you can do now to help pave the infrastructure to creating a better and more effective team. And as a manager, if you have it in a writing down. The metrics or expectations for your direct reports in the office, now's the time to do it. Subjectivity is allowed to flourish in the office. You can praise or promote people just kind of how much you like them or how easy they are to work with. That really has nothing to do with metrics and results. I've often been asked, "How do you know if "someone's been working remotely?" And my response is, how do you know if they were working in the office. If you can't clearly answer that in the office, then you're not going to be able to answer it remotely. So frankly, in these times a lot of the burden falls more on the manager to actually take a hard look at what they're clarifying to their team. And if the metrics aren't laid out. It's on the manager to lay that out. It's not the responsibility of the direct report to figure out how to prove their worth. The manager has to be very articulant about what that value looks like. >> Right, and not only do they have to be articulate about what the deliverables are and what their expectations are, but. You guys have a remote play book GitLab has published, which is terrific. People should go online, it's 38 pages of dense, dense, dense material. It's a terrific resource, it's a open source, you got to love the open source, eat those. But one of the slides that jumped out to me, and it's consistent with a lot of these conversations that we're having, is that your frequency of communications when people are not in the same room together. Has to go up dramatically, which is a little counter intuitive, but what I found even more interesting was the variety of types of communication. Not just you kind of standard meeting, or you standard status on a project, or maybe a little bit of a look forward to some strategic stuff. But you outlined a whole variety of types of communication. Objectives or methods, or feel if you will, to help people stay connected and to help kind keep this team building going forward. >> So here's the thing about communication. You've got to be intentional about it in a remote setting. And in fact, you need to have more intentionality across the board in a remote setting. And communications is just a very obvious. So for a lot of companies, they leave a lot of things to spontaneity Inter-personal relationships and communications are two of the biggest ones. Where you may not actually lay out a plan for how work is communicated about, or what opportunities you give people to chat about their weekends, or sports, or anything like that. You just kind of put them in the same building and then people just kind of figure it out. In a remote setting that's unwise. You're going to get a lot of chaos and disfunction when people don't know how to communicate and on what channel. So at GitLab we're very prescriptive that work communication happens in a GitLab issue or a merge request. And then informal communication happens through Zoom calls or Slack. We actually expired our Slack messages after 90 days, specifically to force people not to do work in Slack. We want the work to begin where it needs to end up, and in that case it's a very, it's a tool, GitLab, that's built for asynchronous communication. We want to continue to encourage that bias towards asynchronous communication. So yeah, we write down everything about how we want people to communicate and through what channels. And that may sound like a lot of rules, but actually it's very much appreciated by our global team. We have over 1200 people, in more that 65 countries. And they all just need to know where communication is going to happen. And our team is really cohesive and on the same page because we're articulant about that. >> So I want to double down on that. On 'A secret is peace', 'cause you brought this up, or you and Stu brought it up in your conversation with Stu, and Stu raised an interesting point, right. Unfortunately in the day of email and connected phones, and this and that, there has grown an expectation that used to be business, okay was, "I'll get back to you within 24 hours "if you leave me a voicemail." And lord knows what it was when we were still typing letters and memos, and sticking stuff in the yellow envelop with the string, right, as multiple days. But somehow that all got changed to, "I need to hear back form you now." And often it feels like, if your trying to have just some uninterrupted work time, to get something done. It's like, why is your lack of planning suddenly my emergency. And you talked about, you can't operate that on a global, asynchronous team because everyone's in different timezones. And just by rule, there are going to be a lot of people that are not awake when you need the answer to that question. But that you've developed a culture that that's okay, and that that is kind of the flow and the pacing which A, forces people to ask in advance, not immediately when you need it. But also gives people unfettered time to actually plan to do work versus plan to answer communications. I wonder if you can dig into how did that evolve and how do you enforce that when somebody comes in from the outside world. >> The real key to that is something that might not be immediately apparent to everyone. Which is, at GitLab we try to shift as much burden as we possibly can humans to documentation. And this even starts at onboarding, where to get onboarded at GitLab, you get an onboarding issue within GitLab, with over 200 check boxes of things to read and knowledge assessments to take. And humans are a part of it, but very minimal compared to what most companies would do. And the thing that you just outlined was, we're talking about asking questions. Or tapping someone on the shoulder to fill in a knowledge gap. But at GitLab we want to write everything down in a very formalized structured way. We try to work handbook first. So we need to document all of our processes, protocols and solutions. Basically everything that we've ever seen or done, needs to be documented in the handbook. So it's not that GitLab team members just magically need less information, it's just that instead of having to ask someone on our team, we go ask the handbook. We go consult the documentation. And the more rich that your documentation is, the less you have to bother other people, and the less you need to rely on synchronicity. So for us it all starts with operating handbook first. That allows our humans to reserve their cycles for doing truly creative things, not just answering your question for the thousandth time. >> Right, another thing you covered, which I really enjoyed was getting senior executives to work from home for an extended period of time. Now obviously, before COVID that would probably be a lot harder to do. Well now COVID has forced that. And I think to your point about that is, it really forces the empathy for someone who had no interest in working from home. Didn't like to work from home. Loves going to the office, has their routine. Been doing it for decades, to kind of wake up to A, you need to have more empathy for what this is all about. And B, what's it all about by actually doing it. So I wonder, kind of your take in the movement to more of a work from anywhere future. Now that all the senior executives have been thrown into this work from home situation. >> Look Jeff, you never want to waste a crisis. We can't wish away the crisis that's in front of us, but we can choose how we respond to it. And this does present an opportunity to lay ground work, to lay infrastructure, to build a more remote organization. And I have absolutely advocated for companies to get their leadership teams out of the office for a meaningful amount of time. A month, ideally a quarter. So that they actually understand what the remote life is. They actually have some of those communication gaps and challenges so they can document what's happening. And then help fix it. But to your point, executives love going to the office because they're on a different playing field to begin with. They usually have an executive assistant. Things are just. There's less friction in general. So it behooves them to just kind of keep charging in that direction, but now what we have is a situation where all of those executives are remote. And I'm seeing a lot of them say, "You know what, I'm seeing the myths that I've perpetrated "break down in front of me." And this is even in the most suboptimal time ever to go remote. This isn't remote work, this is crisis induced work from home. We're all dealing with social isolation. Our parents are also doubling as homeschool teachers. We have a lot going on. And even on top of all of that, I'm amazed at how adaptable the human society has been. In just adjusting to this and figuring it out on the fly. And I think the companies that take this opportunity, to ask themselves the right question, and build this into their ongoing talent and operational strategy, will actually come out stronger on the other side. >> Yeah, as you said. This is as challenging as it's ever been. There was no planning ahead, you're spouse or significant other's also working from home. And has the same Zoom schedule as you do, for some strange reason, right. The kids are home as you said, and your homeschooling them. And they also have to get on Zoom to do their classes. So it's really suboptimal. But as you said, it's a forcing function and people are going to learn. One of the other things in your handbook is the kind of definitions. It's not just work from home or work at the office, but there's actually a continuum and a spectrum. And as people are doing this for weeks and months. And behaviors turn into habits. People are not going to want to go back to sitting on 101 for two hours every morning to go work on a laptop in the office. It just doesn't make sense. So as you kind of look forward. How do you see the evolution. How are people taking baby steps, if you will. To incorporate more of this learning as we go forward. And incorporate into more of their regular, everyday procedures. >> I'm really optimistic about the future because what I see happening here is people are unlocking their imaginations. So once they've kind of stabilized, they're starting to realize, "Hey, I'm getting a lot more time with my family. "I'm spending a lot less on gas. "I just feel better as a person because I don't show up "to work everyday with road rage. "So how can I keep this going." And I genuinely think what's going to happen in four or five months, we're going to have millions of people collectively look at each other and they say, "The boss just called me back into the office "but I just did my job from home. "Even in suboptimal conditions. "I saw my family more, I exercised more. "I had more time to cook and clean. "How about no, I'm not going to go back to the office "as my default location." And I think what's going to happen is the 80, 20 rule is going to flip. Right now people work from home only for a special occasion, like the cable company's coming or something like that. Going forward it think the offices are going to be the special occasion. You're only going to commute to the office, or fly to the office when you have a large contingent of people coming in and you need to wine and dine them, or something like that. And the second order of this is, people that are only living in expensive cities because of their location. When their lease comes up for renewal, they're going to cast a glance at places like Wyoming and Idaho, and Ohio. Maybe even Vietnam and Cambodia, or foreign places. Because now you have them thinking of, "What could life look like if I decouple geography at work. "I still want to work really hard "and contribute this knowledge. "But I can go to a place with better air quality, "better schools, better opportunity to actually "invest in a smaller community, "where I can see real impact." And I think that's just going to have massive, massive societal impacts. People are really taking this time to consider how tightly their identity has been woven into work. Now that they're home and they've become something more than just whatever the office life has defined them as. I think that's really healthy. I think a lot of people may have intertwined those two things too tightly in the past. And now it's a forcing function to really ask yourself, you aren't just your work, you're more than your work. And what can that look like when you can do that job from anywhere. >> Right, right. And as you said, there's so many kind of secondary benefits in terms of traffic and infrastructure, and the environment and all kinds of things. And the other thing I think that's interesting what you said, 80, 20 I think that was pretty generous. I wouldn't give it a 20 percent. But if people, even in this hybrid steps, do more once a week, twice a week. Once every two weeks, right. The impact on the infrastructure and peoples lives is going to be huge. But I wanted to drill on something as we go into kind of this hybrid mode at some point in time. And you talked about, and I thought it was fascinating, about the norms and really coming out from a work from home first, or a work from anywhere first. Your very good at specifying anywhere doesn't mean home. Could be the library, could be the coffee shop. Could be an office, could be a WeWork. Could be wherever. Because if you talked about the new norms and the one I thought was really interesting, which probably impacts a lot of teams, is when some of the team's in the office and some of the team isn't. The typical move, right, is to have everyone in the office go into the conference room. We sit around one big screen. So you get like five people sitting around one table and you got a bunch of heads on Zoom. And you said, "You know, no. "Let's all be remote. So if we just be happen to be sitting at our desk. If we happen to be in the office, that's okay. But really normalize. And like we saw the movement from Cloud got to Cloud-e to Cloud first, why not Cloud. And then you know, kind of mobile and does it work in a mobile. No, no, no it has to. It's mobile first. Really the shift to not, can it be done at home, but tell me why it shouldn't be done at home, a really different kind of opening position as to how people deploy resources and think about staffing and assigning teams. It's like turning the whole thing upside down. >> Completely upside down. I think remote first to your point, is going to be the default going forward. I think we're just one or two quarters away from major CEO's sitting on the hot seat on CNBC, when it's their turn for quarterly earnings. And they're going to have to justify why they're spending what they spend on real estate. Is if your spending a billion dollars a year on real estate, you could easily deploy that to more people, more R&D. Once that question is asked in mass, that is when you're going to see the next phase of this. Where you really have to justify, even from a cost stand point, why are you spending so much? Why are you tying so much of your business results to geography. The thing about remote first is that it's not a us versus them. A lot of what we've learned at GitLab, and how we operate so efficiently. They work really well for remote teams, and they are remote first. But they would work just as well in an office. We attach a Google doc agenda to every single business meeting that we have, so that there's always an artifact. There's always a documented thread on what happened in a meeting. Now this would work just as well in a co-located meeting. Who wouldn't want to have a meeting where it's not just in one ear and out the other. You're going to give the time to the meeting, you might as well get something out of it. And so a lot of these remote forced. Remote first forcing functions, they do help remote teams work well. But I think it's especially important for hybrid teams. Offices aren't going to vanish overnight. A lot of these companies are going to have some part of their company return to the office, when travel restrictions are lifted. It think the key here is that its going to be a lot more fluent. You're never going to know on a day to day basis, who is coming into the office, and who is not. So you need to optimize for everyone being out of the office. And if they just so happen to be there, they just so happen to be there. >> Right, right. So before we. I want to get into one little nitty gritty subject, in terms of investment into the home office. You know, we're doing 100% remote interviews now on theCUBE, we used to go to pretty much. Probably 80% of our business was at events, or at peoples offices, or facilities. Now it's all dial-in. You talked a lot about people need to flex a little bit on enabling people to invest in the little bits and pieces of infrastructure for their home office, that they just don't have the same set ups. You're talking about multiple monitors, a comfortable chair, a good light. That there's a few things you can invest in, not tremendous amounts of money. But a couple of hundred bucks here and there, to make a big difference on the home work environment. And how people should think about making that investment into a big monitor that they don't see. It's not sitting at the desk in the office. >> 100%, look if you're coming from a co-located space, you're probably sitting in a cube that costs five, 10, maybe 20 thousand dollars put together. You might not notice that, but it's not cheap to build cubicles in a high rise. And if you go to your home and you have nothing set up, I would say it's on the people group to think really hard about being more lax and more lenient about spending policy. People need multiple monitors. You need a decent webcam, you need a decent microphone. You need a chair that isn't going to kill your back. You want to help people create healthy ergonomics. Sustainable workspaces in their home. This is the kind of thing that will inevitably impact productivity. You force someone to just be hunched over on their couch, in front of a 13 inch laptop. I mean, what kind of productivity do you really expect from that. That's not a great long term solution. I think the people group actually has a higher burden to bare all the way around. You know when it comes to making sure teams feel like teams and they have the atmosphere to connect on a meaningful level. It comes down to the people group, to not letting that just go to spontaneity. You want to have a happy hour virtually, you're going to have to put a calendar invite on peoples calendar. You're going to create topical channels in Slack for people to talk about things other than work. Someone's going to have to do that. They don't just happen by default. So, from hardware all the way to communication. The people group really needs to use this opportunity to think about, "Okay, what can we unlock in this new world." >> Right, I'm glad you said the people group and not the resources group because they're not coal, or steel, or a factory. >> No, if anything COVID has humanized this in a way, and I think it's actually a really big silver lining, where we're all now peering into each others homes. And it is glaringly obvious, that we're all humans first, colleagues second. And of course that always been the case, but there's something about a sterile or co-located work environment. You check a piece of you at the door. And you just kind of get down to business. Why is that, we have technology at out fingertips. We can be humans with each other. And that going to actually encourage more empathy. As we've seen at GitLab, more empathy leads to better business results. It leads to more meaningful connections. I mean, I have people, friends, located all over the world that I feel like I have a closer bond with. A closer, more intimate connection with that a lot of people I've met in office. To some degree you don't know who they really are. You don't know what they really love and what makes them tick. >> Right, right. All right Darren, so before I let you go and again thank you for the time, the conversation. I'm sure everyone is calling you up and I just love the open source ETHOS and the sharing. It's made such a huge impact on the technology world and second order impacts that a lot of people take advantage. Again, give us the place that people can go for the playbook, so they can come and leverage some of the resources. And again, thank you guys for publishing 'em. >> Absolutely, so we're an open source. We try to open source all of our learnings on remote. So go to allremote.info that will redirect you right into the All Remote section of GitLab handbook. All of which is open source. Right at the top you can download the remote playbook, which is PDF that we talked about. Download that, it takes you through all of our best information on getting started and thriving as a remote team. Just under that there's a lot of comprehensive guides on how we think about everything. And how we operate synchronously. How we handle meeting, and even hiring and compensation. allremote.info and of course you're welcome to reach out to me on Twitter, I'm @darrenmurph. >> All right, well thanks a lot Darren. And I find it somewhat ironic that you have a jetliner over your shoulder. Waiting for the lockdown and the quarantine to end so you can get back on the airplane. And we're looking forward to that day. >> Can't wait man, I miss, I miss the airplanes. I told someone the other day, I never thought I'd say I miss having a middle seat at the very back of the airplane, with someone reclined into my nose. But honestly, I can't wait. Take me anywhere. >> I think you'll be fighting people for that seat in another month or so. All right, thanks a lot, Darren. >> Absolutely, take care all. >> All right, he's Darren. I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE, from our Palo Altos Studios. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

[Music] hello and welcome to the Palo Alto students leaky bomb John Farrar we're here for a special cube conversation and special report big news from VMware discuss the launch of the availability of vSphere 7 I'm here with Chris Prasad SVP and general manager of the vSphere business and cloud platform business unit and Paul Turner VP a VP of Product Management guys thanks for coming in and talking about the big news thank you for having us you guys announced some interesting things back in march around containers kubernetes and the vSphere Chris just about the hard news what's being announced today we are announcing the general availability of vSphere 7 John it's by far the biggest release that we have done in the last 10 years we previewed it this project Pacific a few months ago with this release we are putting kubernetes native support into the vSphere platform what that allows us to do is give customers the ability to run both modern applications based on kubernetes and containers as well as traditional VM based applications on the same platform and it also allows the IT departments to provide their developers cloud operating model using the VMware cloud foundation that is powered by this release this is a key part of our tansu portfolio of solutions and products that we announced this year and it is star gated fully at the developers of modern applications and the specific news is vSphere 7 is general available generally vSphere 7 yes ok that so let's on the trend line here the relevance is what what's the big trend line that this is riding obviously we saw the announcements at VMware last year and throughout the year there's a lot of buzz pascal sternness says there's a big wave here with kubernetes what does this announcement mean you guys with the marketplace trend yeah so what kubernetes is really about is people trying to have an agile operation they're trying to modernize their IT applications and they the best way to do that is build off your current platform expand it and make it a an innovative a agile platform for you to run kubernetes applications and VM applications together I'm not just that customers are also looking at being able to manage a hybrid cloud environment both on pram and public cloud together so they want to be able to evolve and modernize their application stack but modernize their infrastructure stack which means hybrid cloud operations with innovative applications kubernetes or container based applications on VMs what's excited about this trend increase we were talking with us at vmworld last year and we've had many conversations around cloud native but you're seeing cloud native becoming the operating model for modern business I mean this is really the move to the cloud if you look at the successful enterprises and even the suppliers the on-premises piece if not move to the cloud native marketplace technologies the on premise isn't effective so it's not so much on premises going away we know it's not but it's turning into cloud native this is the move to the cloud generally this is a big wave yeah absolutely I mean if John if you think about it on-premise we have significant market share by far the leader in the market and so what we are trying to do with this is to allow customers to use the current platform they are using but bring their application modern application development on top of the same platform today customers tend to set up stacks which are different right so you have a kubernetes stack you have a stack for the traditional applications you have operators and administrators who are specialized in kubernetes on one side and you have the traditional VM operators on the other side with this move what we are saying is that you can be on the same common platform you can have the same administrators who are used to administering the environment that you already had and at the same time offer the developers what they like which is kubernetes dial-tone that they can come and deploy their applications on the same platform that you use for traditional applications yeah Paul Paul Pat said kuba is gonna be the dial tone on the Internet most Millennials might even know what dial tone is but if what he meant is is that's the key fabric that's gonna work a straight and you know we've heard over the years skill gap skill gap not a lot of skills out there but when you look at the reality of skills gap it's really about skills gaps and shortages not enough people most CIOs and chief information security are so that we talk to you say I don't want to fork my development teams I don't want to have three separate teams so I don't have to I I want to have automation I want an operating model that's not gonna be fragmented this kind of speaks to this whole idea of you know interoperability and multi-cloud this seems to be the next big way behind ibrid I think it I think it is the next big wake the the thing that customers are looking for is a cloud operating model they like the ability for developers to be able to invoke new services on demand in a very agile way and we want to bring that cloud operating model to on-prem to Google cloud to Amazon Cloud to Microsoft cloud to any of our VC peepee partners you get the same cloud operating experience and it's all driven by a kubernetes based dial-tone it's effective and available within this platform so by bringing a single infrastructure platform that can one run in this hybrid manner and give you the cloud operating agility that developers are looking for that's what's key in version seven says Pat Kelsey near me when he says dial tone of the internet kubernetes does he mean always on or what does he mean specifically just that it's always available what's what's is what's the meaning behind that that phrase no I the first thing he means is that developers can come to the infrastructure which is the VMware cloud foundation and be able to work with a set of api's that are kubernetes api s-- so developers understand that they are looking for that they understand that dial tone right and you come to our VMware cloud foundation once across all these clouds you get the same API said that you can use to deploy that application okay so let's get into the value here of vSphere seven how does VMware vSphere seven specifically help customers isn't just bolting on kubernetes to vSphere some will say is it that's simple or used whether you're running product management no it's not that easy it's yeah some people say hey use bolton kubernetes on vSphere it's it's not that easy so so one of the things if if anybody's actually tried deploying kubernetes first it's highly complicated um so so definitely one of the things that we're bringing is you call it a Bolton but it's certainly not like that we are making it incredibly simple you talked about IT operational shortages customers want to be able to deploy kubernetes environments in a very simple way the easiest way that we can you can do that is take your existing environment that are out ninety percent of IT and just turn on turn on the kubernetes dial tone and it is as simple as that now it's much more than that in version seven as well we're bringing in a couple things that are very important you also have to be able to manage at scale just like you would in the cloud you want to be able to have infrastructure almost self manage and upgrade and lifecycle manage itself and so we're bringing in a new way of managing infrastructure so that you can manage just large scale environments both on-premise and public cloud environments and scale and then associated with that as well is you must make it secure so there's a lot of enhancements we're building into the platform around what we call intrinsic security which is how can we actually build in truly a trusted platform for your developers and IT yeah I mean I was just going to touch on your point about the shortage of IT staff and how we are addressing that here the the way we are addressing that is that the IT administrators that are used to administering vSphere can continue to administer this enhanced platform with kubernetes the same way they administered the older releases so they don't have to learn anything new they are just working the same way we are not changing any tools process technologies it was before same as it was before more capable dealer and developers can come in and they see new capabilities around kubernetes so it's best of both worlds and what was the pain point that you guys are so obviously the ease-of-use is critical Asti operationally I get that as you look at the cloud native developer Saiga's infrastructure as code means as app developers on the other side taking advantage of it what's the real pain point that you guys are solving with vSphere 7 so I think it's it's it's multiple factors so so first is we've we've talked about agility a few times right there is DevOps is a real trend inside an IT organizations they need to be able to build and deliver applications much quicker they need to be able to respond to the business and to do that what they are doing is they need infrastructure that is on demand so what what we're really doing in the core kubernetes kind of enablement is allowing that on-demand fulfillment of infrastructure so you get that agility that you need but it's it's not just tied to modern applications it's also your all of your existing business applications and your modern applications on one platform which means that you know you've got a very simple and and low-cost way of managing large-scale IT infrastructure so that's that's a huge piece as well and and then I I do want to emphasize a couple of other things it's it we're also bringing in new capabilities for AI and ML applications for sa P Hana databases where we can actually scale to some of the largest business applications out there and you have all of the capabilities like like the GPU awareness and FPGA where FPGA awareness that we built into the platform so that you can truly run this as the fastest accelerated platform for your most extreme applications so you've got the ability to run those applications as well as your kubernetes and container based applications that's the accelerate application innovation piece of the announcement right that's right yeah it's it's it's quite powerful that we've actually brought in you know basically new hardware awareness into the product and expose that to your developers whether that's through containers or through VMs which I want to get your thoughts on the ecosystem and then in the community but I want to just dig into one feature you mentioned I get the lifestyle improvement a life cycle improvement I get the application acceleration innovation but the intrinsic security is interesting could you take a minute explain what that is yeah so there's there's a few different aspects one is looking at how can we actually provide a trusted environment and that means that you need to have a way that the key management that even your administrator is not able to get keys to the kingdom as we would call it you you want to have a controlled environment that you know some of the worst security challenges inside and some of the companies has been your in choler internal IT staff so you've got to have a way that you can run a trusted environment and independent we've got these fair trust authority that we released in version 7 that actually gives you a a secure environment for actually managing your keys to the kingdom effectively your certificates so you've got this you know continuous runtime now not only that we've actually gone and taken our carbon black features and we're actually building in full support for carbon black into the platform so that you've got negative security of even your application ecosystem yeah that's been coming up a lot in conversations the carbon black in the security piece chrishelle see these fear everywhere having that operating model makes a lot of sense but you have a lot of touch points you got cloud hyper scale is that the edge you got partners so the other dominant market share and private cloud we are on Amazon as you well know as your Google IBM cloud Oracle cloud so all the major clouds there is a vSphere stack running so it allows customers if you think about it right it allows customers to have the same operating model irrespective of where their workload is residing they can set policies compliance security they said it once it applies to all their environments across this hybrid cloud and it's all fun a supported by our VMware cloud foundation which is powered by vSphere 7 yeah I think having that the cloud is API based having connection points and having that reliable easy to use is critical operating model all right guys so let's summarize the announcement what do you guys take dare take away from this vSphere 7 what is the bottom line what's what's it really mean I I think what we're if we look at it for developers we are democratizing kubernetes we already are in ninety percent of IT environments out there are running vSphere we are bringing to every one of those vSphere environments and all of the virtual infrastructure administrators they can now manage kubernetes environments you can you can manage it by simply upgrading your environment that's a really nice position rather than having independent kind of environments you need to manage so so I think that's that is one of the key things that's in here the other thing though is there is I don't think any other platform out there that other than vSphere that can run in your data center in Google's in Amazon's in Microsoft's in you know thousands of VC PP partners you have one hybrid platform that you can run with and that's got operational benefits that's got efficiency benefits that's got agility benefits yeah I just add to that and say that look we want to meet customers where they are in their journey and we want to enable them to make business decisions without technology getting in the way and I think the announcement that we made today with vSphere 7 is going to help them accelerate their digital transformation journey without making trade-offs on people process and technology and there's more to come look we're laser focused on making our platform the best in the industry for running all kinds of applications and the best platform for a hybrid and multi cloud and so you'll see more capabilities coming in the future stay tuned well one final question on this news announcement which is this awesome vSphere core product for you guys if I'm the customer tell me why it's gonna be important five years from now because of what I just said it is the only platform that is going to be running across all the public clouds right which will allow you to an operational model that is consistent across the clouds so think about it if you go to Amazon native and then you have orc Lord in Azure you're going to have different tools different processes different people trained to work with those clouds but when you come to VMware and you use our cloud foundation you have one operating model across all these environments and that's going to be game-changing great stuff great stuff thanks for unpacking that for us graduates on the insulin thank you at vSphere 7 News special report here inside the cube conversation I'm John Ferger thanks for watching [Music]

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] hello and welcome to the Palo Alto students leaky bomb John free we're here for a special cube conversation and special report big news from VMware to discuss the launch of the availability of vSphere seven I'm here with Chris Prasad SVP and general manager of the vSphere business and cloud platform business unit and Paul Turner VP a VP of Product Management guys thanks for coming in and talking about the big news thank you for having us you guys announced some interesting things back in march around containers kubernetes and the vSphere there's just about the hard news what's being announced today we are announcing the general availability of vSphere 7 John it's by far the biggest release that we have done in the last 10 years we previewed it this project Pacific a few months ago with this release we are putting kubernetes native support into the vSphere platform what that allows us to do is give customers the ability to run both modern applications based on kubernetes and containers as well as traditional VM based applications on the same platform and it also allows the IT departments to provide their developers cloud operating model using the VMware cloud foundation that is powered by this release this is a key part of our tansu portfolio of solutions and products that we announced this year and it is targeted fully at the developers of modern applications and the specific news is vSphere 7 is general available you know really vSphere 7 yes ok that so let's on the trend line here the relevance is what what's the big trend line that this is riding obviously we saw the announcements at VMworld last year and throughout the year there's a lot of buzz Pat Keller says there's a big wave here with kubernetes what does this announcement mean for you guys with the marketplace trend yeah so what kubernetes is really about is people trying to have an agile operation they're trying to modernize their IT applications and they the best way to do that is build off your current platform expanded and and make it a an innovative a agile platform for you to run kubernetes applications and VM applications together I'm not just that customers are also looking at being able to manage a hybrid cloud environment both on Prem and public cloud together so they want to be able to evolve and modernize their application stack but modernize their infrastructure stack which means hybrid cloud operations with innovative applications kubernetes or container based applications and VMs what's excited about this trend Chris we were talking with us at VMworld last year and we've had many conversations around cloud native but you're seeing cloud native becoming the operating model for modern business I mean this is really the move to the cloud if you look at the successful enterprises even the suppliers the on-premises piece if not move to the cloud native marketplace technologies the on premise isn't effective so it's not so much on premises going away we know it's not but it's turning into cloud native this is the move to the cloud generally this is a big wave yeah absolutely I mean if Jon if you think about it on-premise we have significant market share by far the leader in the market and so what we are trying to do with this is to allow customers to use the current platform they are using but bring their application modern application development on top of the same platform today customers tend to set up stacks which are different right so you have a kubernetes stack you have a stack for the traditional applications you have operators and administrators who are specialized in kubernetes on one side and you have the traditional VM operators on the other side with this move what we are saying is that you can be on the same common platform you can have the same administrators who are used to administering the environment that you already had and at the same time offer the developers what they like which is kubernetes dial-tone that they can come and deploy their applications on the same platform that you use for traditional applications yep all Pat said Cuba is gonna be the dial tone on the internet most Millennials might even know what dial tone is but a buddy mince is is that's the key fabric there's gonna work a straight and you know we've heard over the years skill gap skill gap not a lot of skills out there but when you look at the reality of skills gap it's really about skills gaps and shortages not enough people most CIOs and chief and major security are so that we talk to you say I don't want to fork my development teams I don't want to have three separate teams so I don't have to I want to have automation I want an operating model that's not gonna be fragmented this kind of speaks to this whole idea of you know interoperability and multi-cloud this seems to be the next big way behind ibrid I think it I think it is the next big wake the the thing that customers are looking for is a cloud operating model they like the ability for developers to be able to invoke new services on demand in a very agile way and we want to bring that cloud operating model to on-prem to Google cloud to Amazon Cloud to Microsoft cloud to any of our VC peepee partners you get the same cloud operating experience and it's all driven by a kubernetes based dial-tone it's effective and available within this platform so by bringing a single infrastructure platform that can one run in this hybrid manner and give you the cloud operating agility that developers are looking for that's what's key in version seven says Pat Kelsey near me when he says dial tone of the internet kubernetes does he mean always on or what does he mean specifically just that it's always available what's what says what's the meaning behind that that phrase the the first thing he means is that developers can come to the infrastructure which is the VMware cloud foundation and be able to work with a set of api's that are kubernetes api s-- so developers understand that they're looking for that they understand that dial tone right and you come to our VMware cloud foundation that runs across all these clouds you get the same API said that you can use to deploy their application okay so let's get into the value here of vSphere seven how does VMware vSphere 7 specifically help customers isn't just bolting on kubernetes to vSphere some will say is it that's simple or are you running product management no it's not that easy it's yeah some people say hey just Bolton kubernetes on vSphere it's it's not that easy so so one of the things if if anybody's actually tried deploying kubernetes first it's it's highly complicated um so so definitely one of the things that we're bringing is you call it a bolt on but it's certainly not like that we are making it incredibly simple you talked about IT operational shortages customers want to be able to deploy kubernetes environments in a very simple way the easiest way that we can you can do that is take your existing environment that are out ninety percent of IT and just turn on turn on the kubernetes dial tone and it is as simple as that now it's much more than that in version 7 as well we're bringing in a couple things that are very important you also have to be able to manage at scale just like you would in the cloud you want to be able to have infrastructure almost self-managed and upgrade and lifecycle manage itself and so we're bringing in a new way of managing infrastructure so that you can manage just large scale environments both on-premise and public cloud environments and scale and then associated with that as well is you must make it secure so there's a lot of enhancements we're building into the platform around what we call intrinsic security which is how can we actually build in truly a trusted platform for your developers and IIT yeah I mean I I was just going to touch on your point about the shortage of IT staff and how we are addressing that here the the way we are addressing that is that the IT administrators that are used to administering vSphere can continue to administer this enhanced platform with kubernetes the same way administered the older laces so they don't have to learn anything new they're just working the same way we are not changing any tools process technologies so same as it was before same as it was before more capable dealer and developers can come in and they see new capabilities around kubernetes so it's best of both worlds and what was the pain point that you guys are so obviously the ease-of-use is critical Asti operationally I get that as you look at the cloud native developer Saiga's infrastructure as code means as app developers on the other side taking advantage of it what's the real pain point that you guys are solving with vSphere 7 so I think it's it's it's multiple factors so so first is we've we've talked about agility a few times right there is DevOps as a real trend inside an IT organizations they need to be able to build and deliver applications much quicker they need to be able to respond to the business and to do that what they are doing is is they need infrastructure that is on demand so what what we're really doing in the core kubernetes kind of enablement is allowing that on-demand fulfillment of infrastructure so you get that agility that you need but it's it's not just tied to modern applications it's also your all of your existing business applications and your monitoring applications on one platform which means that you know you've got a very simple and and low-cost way of managing large-scale IT infrastructure so that's a that's a huge piece as well and and then I I do want to emphasize a couple of other things it's we're also bringing in new capabilities for AI and m/l applications for sa P Hana databases where we can actually scale to some of the largest business applications out there and you have all of the capabilities like like the GPU awareness and FPGA were FPGA awareness that we built into the platform so that you can truly run this as the fastest accelerated platform for your most extreme applications so you've got the ability to run those applications as well as your kubernetes and container based applications that's the accelerated application innovation piece of the announcement right that's right yeah it's it's it's quite powerful that we've actually brought in you know basically new hardware awareness into the product and expose that to your developers whether that's through containers or through VMs Chris I want to get your thoughts on the ecosystem and then the community but I want to just dig into one feature you mentioned I get the lifestyle improvement a life cycle improvement I get the application acceleration innovation but the intrinsic security is interesting could you take a minute explain what that is yeah so there's there's a few different aspects one is looking at how can we actually provide a trusted environment and that means that you need to have a way that the the key management that even your administrator is not able to get keys to the kingdom as we would call it you you want to have a controlled environment that you know some of the worst security challenges inside and some of the companies has been your Intel or internal IT staff so you've got to have a way that you can run a trusted environment in independent we've got these fair trust Authority that we released in version 7 that actually gives you a a secure environment for actually managing your keys to the kingdom effectively your certificates so you've got this you know continuous runtime now not only that we've actually gone and taken our carbon black features and we're actually building in full support for carbon black into the platform so that you've got negative security of even your application ecosystem yeah that's been coming up a lot conversations the carbon black in the security piece Chris obviously have vsphere everywhere having that operating model makes a lot of sense but you have a lot of touch points you got cloud hyper scale is got the edge you got partners so the other dominant market share and private cloud we are on Amazon as you well know as your Google IBM cloud Oracle cloud so all the major clouds there is a vSphere stack running so it allows customers if you think about it right it allows customers to have the same operating model irrespective where their workload is residing they can set policies compliance security they said it once it applies to all their environments across this hybrid cloud and it's all for a supported by our VMware cloud foundation which is powered by vSphere 7 yeah I think having that the cloud is API based having connection points and having that reliable easy to use is critical operating model all right guys so let's summarize the announcement what do you guys take Derek take away from this vSphere 7 what is the bottom line what's what's it really mean I think what we're if we look at it for developers we are democratizing kubernetes we already are in 90% of IT environments out there are running vSphere we are bringing to every one of those be sphere environments and all of the virtual infrastructure administrators they can now manage kubernetes environments you can you can manage it by simply upgrading your environment that's a really nice position rather than having independent kind of environments you need to manage so so I think that's that is one of the key things that's in here the other thing though is there is I don't think any other platform out there that other than vSphere that can run in your data center in Google's in Amazon's in Microsoft's in you know thousands of VC PP partners you have one hybrid platform that you can run with and that's got operational benefits that's got efficiency benefits that's got agility benefits yeah I just add to that and say that look we want to meet customers where they are in their journey and we want to enable them to make business decisions without technology getting in the way and I think the announcement that we made today with vSphere 7 is going to help them accelerate their digital transformation journey without making trade-offs on people process and technology and there's more to come that we're laser focused on making our platform the best in the industry for running all kinds of applications and the best platform for a hybrid and multi cloud and so you'll see more capabilities coming in the future stay tuned oh one final question on this news announcement which is this awesome vSphere core product for you guys if I'm the customer tell me why it's gonna be important five years from now because of what I just said it is the only platform that is going to be running across all the public clouds right which will allow you to have an operational model that is consistent across the clouds so think about it if you go to Amazon native and then you have orc Lord and as your you're going to have different tools different processes different people trained to work with those clouds but when you come to VMware and you use our cloud foundation you have one operating model across all these environments and that's going to be game-changing great stuff great stuff thanks for unpacking that for us graduates on the insulin Thank You Vera bees fear 7 News special report here inside the cube conversation I'm John Farrar your thanks for watch [Music] and welcome back everybody Jeff Rick here with the cube we are having a very special Q conversation and kind of the the ongoing unveil if you will of the new VMware vSphere 7 dot gonna get a little bit more of a technical deep dive here today we're excited to have a longtime cube alumni kit Kolbert here is the vp and CTO cloud platform at being work it great to see you yeah and and new to the cube jared rose off he's a senior director of product management at VMware and I'm guessin had a whole lot to do with this build so Jared first off congratulations for birthing this new release and great to have you on board alright so let's just jump into it from kind of a technical aspect what is so different about vSphere seven yeah great so vSphere seven baek's kubernetes right into the virtualization platform and so this means that as a developer I can now use kubernetes to actually provision and control workloads inside of my vSphere environment and it means as an IT admin I'm actually able to deliver kubernetes and containers to my developers really easily right on top of the platform I already run so I think we had kind of a sneaking suspicion that that might be coming when the with the acquisition of the hefty Oh team so really exciting news and I think it you tease it out quite a bit at VMware last year about really enabling customers to deploy workloads across environments regardless of whether that's on Prem public cloud this public cloud that public cloud so this really is the the realization of that vision yes yeah so we talked at VMworld about project Pacific right this technology preview and as Jared mentioned of what that was was how do we take kubernetes and really build it into vSphere as you know we had a hybrid cloud vision for quite a while now how do we proliferate vSphere to as many different locations as possible now part of the broader VMware cloud foundation portfolio and you know as we've gotten more and more of these instances in the cloud on-premises at the edge with service providers there's a secondary question how do we actually evolve that platform so it can support not just the existing workloads but also modern work clothes as well right all right so I think you brought some pictures for us a little demo so why don't ya well into there and let's see what it looks like you guys can cube the demo yes we're gonna start off looking at a developer actually working with the new VMware cloud foundation for an vSphere 7 so what you're seeing here is the developers actually using kubernetes to deploy kubernetes the self eating watermelon right so the developer uses this kubernetes declarative syntax where they can describe a whole kubernetes cluster and the whole developer experience now is driven by kubernetes they can use the coop control tool and all of the ecosystem of kubernetes api is and tool chains to provision workloads right into vSphere and so you know that's not just provisioning workloads though this is also key to the developer being able to explore the things they've already deployed so go look at hey what's the IP address that got allocated to that or what's the CPU load on this you know workload I just deployed on top of kubernetes we've integrated a container registry into vSphere so here we see a developer pushing and pulling container images and you know one of the amazing things about this is from an infrastructure as code standpoint now the developers infrastructure as well as their software is all unified in source control I can check in not just my code but also the description of the kubernetes environment and storage and networking and all the things that are required to run that app so now we're looking at a sort of a side-by-side view where on the right hand side is the developer continuing to deploy some pieces of their application and on the left-hand side we see V Center and what's key here is that as the developer deploys new things through kubernetes those are showing up right inside of the V center console and so the developer and IT are seeing exactly the same things with the same names and so this means what a developer calls their IT department says hey I got a problem with my database we don't spend the next hour trying to figure out which VM they're talking about they got the same name they say they see the same information so what we're gonna do is that you know we're gonna push the the developer screen aside and start digging into the vSphere experience and you know what you'll see here is that V Center is the V Center you've already known and loved but what's different is that now it's much more application focused so here we see a new screen inside of V Center vSphere namespaces and so these vSphere namespaces represent whole logical applications like a whole distributed system now as a single object inside a V Center and when I click into one of these apps this is a managed object inside of e spear I can click on permissions and I can decide which developers have the permission to deploy or read the configuration of one of these namespaces I can hook this into my Active Directory infrastructure so I can use the same you know corporate credentials to access the system I tap into all my existing storage so you know this platform works with all of the existing vSphere storage providers can use storage policy based management to provide storage for kubernetes and it's hooked in with things like DRS right so I can define quotas and limits for CPU and memory and all that's going to be enforced by Drs inside the cluster and again as an as an admin I'm just using vSphere but to the developer they're getting a whole kubernetes experience out of this platform now vSphere also now sucks in all this information from the kubernetes environment so besides you know seeing the VMS and and things that developers have deployed I can see all of the desired state specifications all the different kubernetes objects that the developers have created the compute network and storage objects they're all integrated right inside the the vCenter console and so once again from a diagnostics and troubleshooting perspective this data is invaluable it often saves hours just in trying to figure out what what we're even talking about when we're trying to resolve an issue so the you know as you can see this is all baked right into V Center the V Center experience isn't transformed a lot we get a lot of VI admins who look at this and say where's the kubernetes and they're surprised that like they've been managing kubernetes all this time it just looks it looks like the vSphere experience they've already got but all those kubernetes objects the pods and containers kubernetes clusters load balancer stores they're all represented right there natively in the V Center UI and so we're able to take all of that and make it work for your existing VI admins well that's a it's pretty it's pretty wild you know it really builds off the vision that again I think you kind of outlined kid teased out it at VMworld which was you know the IT still sees vSphere which is what they want to see when they're used to seeing but devs siku Nettie's and really bringing those together in a unified environment so that depending on what your job is and what you're working on that's what you're gonna see in this kind of unified environment yeah yeah as the demo showed it is still vSphere at the center but now there's two different experiences that you can have interacting with vSphere the kubernetes base one which is of course great for developers and DevOps type folks as well as the traditional vSphere interface API is which is great for VI admins and IT operations right and then and really it was interesting to you tease that a lot that was a good little preview of people knew they're watching but you talked about really cloud journey and and kind of this bifurcation of kind of classical school apps that are that are running in their classic memes and then kind of the modern you know county cloud native applications built on kubernetes and youyou outlined a really interesting thing that people often talk about the two ends of the spectrum and getting from one to the other but not really about kind of the messy middle if you will and this is really enabling people to pick where along that spectrum they can move their workloads or move their apps ya know I think we think a lot about it like that that we look at we talk to customers and all of them have very clear visions on where they want to go their future state architecture and that involves embracing cloud it involves modernizing applications and you know as you mentioned that it's it's challenging for them because I think what a lot of customers see is this kind of these two extremes either you're here where you are kind of the old current world and you got the bright Nirvana future on the far end there and they believe it's the only way to get there is to kind of make a leap from one side to the other that you have to kind of change everything out from underneath you and that's obviously very expensive very time-consuming and very error-prone as well there's a lot of things that can go wrong there and so I think what we're doing differently at VMware is really to your point as you call it the the messy middle I would say it's more like how do we offer stepping stones along that journey rather than making this one giant leap we had to invest all this time and resources how come you able people to make smaller incremental steps each of which have a lot of business value but don't have a huge amount of cost right and its really enabling kind of this next gen application where there's a lot of things that are different about about one of the fundamental things is we're now the application defines a reach sources that it needs to operate versus the resources defining kind of the capabilities of what the what the application can't do and that's where everybody is moving as quickly as as makes sense you said not all applications need to make that move but most of them should and most of them are and most of them are at least making that journey you see that yeah definitely I mean I think that you know certainly this is one of the big evolutions we're making in vSphere from you know looking historically at how we managed infrastructure one of things we enable in VCR 7 is how we manage applications right so a lot of the things you would do in infrastructure management of setting up security rules or encryption settings or you know your your resource allocation you would do this in terms of your physical and virtual infrastructure you talk about it in terms of this VM is going to be encrypted or this VM is gonna have this firewall rule and what we do in vSphere 7 is elevate all of that to application centric management so you actually look at an application and say I want this application to be constrained to this much CPU or I want this application to be have these security rules on it and so that shifts the focus of management really up to the application level right yeah and like I kind of even zoom back a little bit there and say you know if you look back one thing we did was something like V San before that people had to put policies on a LUN you know an actual storage LUN and a storage array and then by virtue of a workload being placed on that array it inherited certain policies right and so these have turned that around allows you to put the policy on the VM but what jerez talking about now is that for a modern workload a modern were close not a single VM it's it's a collection of different things you've got some containers in there some VMs probably distributed maybe even some on-prem some in the cloud and so how do you start managing that more holistically and this notion of really having an application as a first-class entity that you can now manage inside of vSphere it's really powerful and very simplifying one right and why this is important is because it's this application centric point of view which enables the digital transformation that people are talking about all the time that's it's a nice big word but the rubber hits the road is how do you execute and deliver applications and more importantly how do you continue to evolve them and change them you know based on either customer demands or competitive demands or just changes in the marketplace yeah well you look at something like a modern app that maybe has a hundred VMs that are part of it and you take something like compliance right so today if I want to check of this app is compliant I got to go look at every individual VM and make sure it's locked down and hardened and secured the right way but now instead what I can do is I can just look at that one application object inside of each Center set the right security settings on that and I can be assured that all the different objects inside of it are gonna inherit that stuff so it really simplifies that it also makes it so that that admin can handle much larger applications you know if you think about vCenter today you might log in and see a thousand VMs in your inventory when you log in with vSphere seven what you see is a few dozen applications so a single admin can manage a much larger pool of infrastructure many more applications and they could before because we automate so much of that operation and it's not just the scale part which is obviously really important but it's also the rate of change and this notion of how do we enable developers to get what they want to get done done ie building applications well at the same time enabling the IT operations teams to put the right sort of guardrails in place around compliance and security performance concerns these sorts of elements and so being by being able to have the IT operations team really manage that logical application at that more abstract level and then have the developer be able to push in new containers or new VMs or whatever they need inside of that abstraction it actually allows those two teams to work actually together and work together better they're not stepping over each other but in fact now they can both get what they need to get done done and do so as quickly as possible but while also being safe and in compliance is ready fourth so there's a lot more to this is a very significant release right again a lot of foreshadowing if you go out and read the tea leaves that's a pretty significant you know kind of RER context or many many parts of ease of beer so beyond the kubernetes you know kind of what are some of the other things that are coming out and there's a very significant release yeah it's a great question because we tend to talk a lot about kubernetes what was project Pacific but is now just part of vSphere and certainly that is a very large aspect of it but to your point you know vSphere 7 is a massive release with all sorts of other features and so instead of a demo here let's pull up with some slides right look at what's there so outside of kubernetes there's kind of three main categories that we think about when we look at vSphere seven so the first first one is simplified lifecycle management and then really focus on security it's a second one and then applications as well out both including you know the cloud native apps that don't fit in the kubernetes bucket as well as others and so we go on the first one the first column there there's a ton of stuff that we're doing around simplifying life cycle so let's go to the next slide here where we can dive in a little bit more to the specifics so we have this new technology vSphere lifecycle management VL cm and the idea here is how do we dramatically simplify upgrades lifecycle management of the ESX clusters and ESX hosts how do we make them more declarative with a single image you can now specify for an entire cluster we find that a lot of our vSphere admins especially at larger scales have a really tough time doing this there's a lot of in and out today it's somewhat tricky to do and so we want to make it really really simple and really easy to automate as well so if you're doing kubernetes on kubernetes I suppose you're gonna have automation on automation right because they're upgrading to the sevens is probably not any consequent inconsequential tasks mm-hm and yeah and going forward and allowing you know as we start moving to deliver a lot of this great VCR functionality at a more rapid clip how do we enable our customers to take advantage of all those great things we're putting out there as well right next big thing you talk about is security yep we just got back from RSA thank goodness we got that that show in before all the badness started yeah but everyone always talked about security's got to be baked in from the bottom to the top yeah talk about kind of the the changes in the security so done a lot of things around security things around identity Federation things around simplifying certificate management you know dramatic simplifications there across the board one I want to focus on here on the next slide is actually what we call vSphere trust Authority and so with that one what we're looking at here is how do we reduce the potential attack surfaces and really ensure there's a trusted computing base when we talk to customers what we find is that they're nervous about a lot of different threats including even internal ones right how do they know all the folks that work for them can be fully trusted and obviously if you're hiring someone you somewhat trust them but you know what what's how do you implement that the concept of least privilege right or zero trust right yeah topic exactly so the idea with trust authorities that we can specify a small number of physical ESX hosts that you can really lock down and sure fully secure those can be managed by a special vCenter server which is in turn very lockdown only a few people have access to it and then those hosts and that vCenter can then manage other hosts that are untrusted and can use attestation to actually prove that okay these untrusted hosts haven't been modified we know they're okay so they're okay to actually run workloads on they're okay to put data on and that sort of thing so is this kind of like building block approach to ensure that businesses can have a very small trust base off of which they can build to include their entire vSphere environment right and then the third kind of leg of the stool is you know just better leveraging you know kind of a more complex asset ecosystem if you know what things like FPGAs and GPUs and you know kind of all of the various components that power these different applications which now the application could draw the appropriate resources as needed so you've done a lot of work here as well yeah there's a ton of innovation happening in the hardware space as you mentioned all sort of accelerators coming out we all know about GPUs and obviously what they can do for machine learning and AI type use cases not to mention 3d rendering but you know FPGAs and all sorts of other things coming down the pike as well there and so what we found is that as customers try to roll these out they have a lot of the same problems that we saw in the very early days of virtualization ie silos of specialized hardware that different teams were using and you know what you find is all things we found before you found we find very low utilization rates inability to automate that inability to manage that well putting security and compliance and so forth and so this is really the reality that we see at most customers and it's funny because and some ones you think well well shouldn't we be past this as an industry shouldn't we have solved this already you know we did this with virtualization but as it turns out the virtualization we did was for compute and then storage and network but now we really needed to virtualize all these accelerators and so that's where this bit fusion technology that we're including now with vSphere it really comes to the forefront so if you see in the current slide we're showing here the challenge is that just these separate pools of infrastructure how do you manage all that and so if you go to the we go to the next slide what we see is that with bit fusion you can do the same thing that we saw with compute virtualization you can now pool all these different silos infrastructure together so they become one big pool of GPUs of infrastructure that anyone in an organization can use we can you know have multiple people sharing a GPU we can do it very dynamically and the great part of it is is that it's really easy for these folks to use they don't even need to think about it in fact integrates seamlessly with their existing workflows so it's pretty it's pretty trick is because the classifications of the assets now are much much larger much varied and much more workload specific right that's really the opportunities flash they are they're good guys are diverse yeah and so like you know a couple other things just I don't have a slide on it but just things we're doing to our base capabilities things around DRS and vmotion really massive evolutions there as well to support a lot of these bigger workloads right so you look at some of the massive sa P Hana or Oracle databases and how do we ensure that the emotion can scale to handle those without impacting their performance or anything else they're making DRS smarter about how it does load balancing and so forth right now a lot of this stuff not just kind of brand new cool new accelerator stuff but it's also how do we ensure the core ass people have already been running for many years we continue to keep up with the innovation and scale there as well right all right so do I give you the last word you've been working on this for a while there's a whole bunch of admins that have to sit and punch keys what do you what do you tell them what should they be excited about what are you excited for them in this new release I think what I'm excited about is how you know IT can really be an enabler of the transformation of modern apps right I think today you look at a lot of these organizations and what ends up happening is the app team ends up sort of building their own infrastructure on top of IT infrastructure right and so now I think we can shift that story around I think that there's you know there's an interesting conversation that a lot of IT departments and appdev teams are gonna be having over the next couple years about how do we really offload some of these infrastructure tasks from the dev team make you more productive give you better performance availability disaster recovery and these kinds of capabilities awesome well Jared congratulations that get both of you for forgetting to release out I'm sure it was a heavy lift and it's always good to get it out in the world and let people play with it and thanks for for sharing a little bit more of a technical deep dive I'm sure there's ton more resources from people I even want to go down into the weeds so thanks for stopping by thank you thank you all right ease Jared he's kid I'm Jeff you're watching the cube we're in the Palo Alto studios thanks for watching we'll see you next time [Music] hi and welcome to a special cube conversation I'm Stu min a minute and we're digging into VMware vSphere seven announcement we've had conversations with some of the executives some of the technical people but we know that there's no better way to really understand a technology than to talk to some of the practitioners that are using it so really happy to have joined me for the program I have Bill Buckley Miller who is in infrastructure designer with British Telecom joining me digitally from across the pond bill thanks so much for joining us nice - all right so Phil let's start of course British Telecom I think most people know you know what BT is and it's a you know a really sprawling company tell us a little bit about you know your group your role and what's your mandate okay so my group it's called service platforms it's the bit of BT that services all of our multi millions of our customers so they we have broadband we have TV we have mobile we have DNS and email systems and one and it's all about our customers it's not a B to be part of BT you with me we we specifically focus on those kind of multi million customers that we've got in those various services I'm in particular my group is for we do infrastructure so we really do from data center all the way up to really about boot time or so we'll just past boot time and the application developers look after that stage and above okay great we definitely gonna want to dig in and talk about that that boundary between the infrastructure teams and the application teams but let's talk a little bit first you know we're talking about VMware so you know how long's your organization been doing VMware and tell us you know what you see with the announcement that VMware's making work BC or seven sure well I mean we've had a really great relationship with VMware for about twelve thirteen years something like that and it's a absolutely key part of our of our infrastructure it's written throughout BT really in every part of our operations design development and the whole ethos of the company is based around a lot of VMware products and so one of the challenges that we've got right now is application architectures are changing quite significantly at the moment and as you know in particular with serving us and with containers and a whole bunch of other things like that we're very comfortable with our ability to manage VMs and have been for a while we currently use extensively we use vSphere NSX t.v raps log insight network insight and a whole bunch of other VMware constellation applications and our operations teams know how to use that they know how to optimize they know how to capacity plan and troubleshoot so that's that's great and that's been like that for a half a decade at least we've been really really confident with our ability to still with Yemen where environments and Along Came containers and like I say multi cloud as well and what we were struggling with was the inability to have a cell pane a glass really on all of that and to use the same people and the same same processes to manage a different kind of technology so we we'd be working pretty closely with VMware on a number of different containerization products for several years now I would really closely with the b-string integrated containers guys in particular and now with the Pacific guys with really the idea that when we we bring in version 7 and the containerization aspects of version 7 we'll be in a position to have that single pane of glass to allow our operations team to really barely differentiate between what's a VM and what's a container that's really the holy grail right so we'll be able to allow our developers to develop our operations team to deploy and to operate and our designers to see the same infrastructure whether that's on premises cloud or off premises and be able to manage the whole piece in that was bad ok so Phil really interesting things you walked through here you've been using containers in a virtualized environment for a number of years want to understand in the organizational piece just a little bit because it sounds I manage all the environment but you know containers are a little bit different than VMs you know if I think back you know from an application standpoint it was you know let's stick it in a vm I don't need to change it and once I spin up a VM often that's gonna sit there for you know months if not years as opposed to you know I think about a containerization environment it's you know I really want a pool of resources I'm gonna create and destroy things all the time so you know bring us inside that organizational piece you know how much will there need to be interaction and more interaction or change in policies between your infrastructure team and your app dev team well yes making absolutely right that's the nature and that the time scales that were talking about between VMs and containers oh he's wildly different as you say we we probably oughta certainly have VMs in place now that were in place in 2000 and 2018 certainly but I imagine I haven't haven't really been touched whereas as you say VMs and a lot of people talk about spinning them all up all the time there are parts of our architecture that require that in particular the very client facing bursty stuff it you know does require spinning up spinning down pretty quickly but some of our smaller the containers do sit around for weeks if not if not months I really just depend on the development cycle aspects of that but the heartbeat that we've we've really had was just the visualizing it and there are a number different products out there that allow you to see the behavior of your containers and understand the resource requirements that they are having at any given moment allows troubleshoot and so on but they are not they need their new products their new things that we we would have to get used to and also it seems that there's an awful lot of competing products quite a Venn diagram if in terms of functionality and user abilities to do that so through again again coming back to being able to manage through vSphere to be able to have a list of VMs and alongside it is a list of containers and to be able to use policies to define how the behave in terms of their networking to be able to essentially put our deployments on Rails by using in particular tag based policies means that we can take the onus of security we can take the onus of performance management and capacity management away from the developers you don't really care about a lot of time and they can just get on with their job which is to develop new functionality and help our customers so that then means that then we have to be really responsible about defining those policies and making sure that they're adhered to but again we know how to do that with VMs new visa so the fact that we can actually apply that straightaway just to add slightly different completely unit which is really what we're talking about here is ideal and then to be able to extend that into multiple clouds as well because we do use multiple cards where AWS and as your customers and were between them is an opportunity that we can't do anything of them be you know excited about take oh yeah still I really like how you described it really the changing roles that are happening there in your organization need to understand right there's things that developers care about you know they want to move fast they want to be able to build new things and there's things that they shouldn't have to worry about and you know we talked about some of the new world and it's like oh can the platform underneath this take care of it well there there's some things platforms take care of there's some things that the software or you know your theme is going to need to understand so maybe if you could dig in a little bit some of those what are the drivers from your application portfolio what is the business asking of your organization that that's driving this change and you know being one of those you know tailwind pushing you towards you know kubernetes and the the vSphere 7 technologies well it all comes down with the customers right our customers want new functionality they want new integrations they want new content and they want better stability and better performance and our ability to extend or contracting capacity as needed as well so they're the real ultimate we want to give our customers the best possible experience of our products and services so we have to address that really from a development perspective it's our developers that have the responsibility to design them to deploy those so we have to in infrastructure we have to act as a firm foundation really underneath all of that that allows them to know that what they spend their time and develop and want to push out to our customers is something that can be trusted as performant we understand where their capacity requirements are coming from in in the short term and in the long term for that and it's secure as well obviously is a big aspect to it so really we're just providing our developers with the best possible chance of giving our customers what will hopefully make them delighted great Phil you've mentioned a couple of times that you're using public clouds as well as you know your your your your VMware farm one of make sure I if you can explain a little bit a couple of things number one is when it comes to your team especially your infrastructure team how much are they involved with setting up some of the the basic pieces or managing things like performance in the public cloud and secondly when you look at your applications are some of your clouds some of your applications hybrid going between the data center and the public cloud and I haven't talked to too many customers that are doing applications that just live in any cloud and move things around but you know maybe if you could clarify those pieces as to you know what cloud really means to your organization and your applications sure well I mean to us climate allows us to accelerate development she's nice because it means we don't have to do on-premises capacity lifts for new pieces of functionality or so we can initially build in the cloud and test in the cloud but very often applications really make better sense especially in the TV environment where people watch TV all the time I mean yes there are peak hours and lighter hours of TV watching same goes for broadband really but we generally we're well more than an eight-hour application profile so what that allows us to do then is to have well it makes sense we run them inside our organization where we have to run them in our organization for you know data protection reasons or whatever then we can do that as well but where we say for instance we have a boxing match on and we're going to be seen enormous spike in the amount of customers that want to sign up into our order journey for to allow them to view that and to gain access to that well why would you spend a lot of money on servers just for that level of additional capacity so we do absolutely have hybrid applications not sorry hybrid blocks we have blocks of suburb locations you know dozens of them really to support oil platform and what you would see is that if you were to look at our full application structure for one of the platform as I mentioned that some of the smoothers application blocks I have to run inside some can run outside and what we want to be able to do is to allow our operations team to define that again by policy as to where they run and to you know have a system that allows us to transparently see where they're running how they're running and the implications of those decisions so that we can tune those maybe in the future as well and that way we best serve our customers we you know we get to get our customers yeah what they need all right great Phil final question I have for you you've been through a few iterations of looking at VMS containers public cloud what what advice would you give your peers with the announcement of vSphere 7 and how they can look at things today in 2020 versus what they might have looked at say a year or two ago well I'll be honest I was a little bit surprised by vSphere so we knew that VMware we're working on trying to make containers on the same level both from a management deployment perspective as we MS I mean they're called VMware after all we knew that they were looking it's no surprise by just quite how quickly they've managed to almost completely reinvent their application really it's you know if you look at the whole tansy stuff from the Mission Control stuff I think a lot of people were blown away by just quite how happy VMware were to reinvent themselves and from an application perspective you know and to really leap forward and this is the very between version six and seven I've been following these since version three at least and it's an absolutely revolutionary change in terms of the overall architecture the aims to - what they want to achieve with the application and you know luckily the nice thing is is that if you're used to version six is not that big a deal it's really not that big a deal to move forward at all it's not such a big change to process and training and things like that but my word there's no awful lot of work underneath that underneath the covers and I'm really excited and I think other people in my position should really just take it as an opportunity to really revisit what they can achieve with them in particular with vSphere and with in combination with and SXT it's it's but you know it's quite hard to put into place unless you've seen the slide or slides about it and useless you've seen the products just how revolutionary the the version 7 is compared to previous revisions which have kind of evolved for a couple of years so yeah I think I'm really excited to run it and know a lot of my peers other companies that I speak with quite often are very excited about seven as well so yeah I'm really excited about the whole ball base well Phil thank you so much absolutely no doubt this is a huge move for VMware the entire company and their ecosystem rallying around helped move to the next phase of where application developers and infrastructure need to go Phil Buckley joining us from British Telecom I'm Stu minimun thank you so much for watching the queue

>>from San Francisco. It's the queue every day to thank you. Brought to you by day to like you. Hey, >>welcome back already, Jeffrey. Here with the Cube were a day to IQ's headquarters in downtown San Francisco. They used to be metal sphere, which is what you might know them as. And they've rebranded earlier this year. And they're really talking about helping Enterprises in their journey to cloud native. And we're really excited to have really one of the product guys he's been here and seeing this journey and how through with the customers and helping the company transforming his Chandler hosing tonight. He's the s VP of engineering and product. Chandler, great to see you. Thanks. So, first off, give everyone kind of a background on on the day to like you. I think a lot of people knew mesosphere. You guys around making noise? What kind of changed in the marketplace to to do a rebranding? >>Sure. Yeah, we've been obviously, Mason's here in the past and may so so I think a lot of people watching the cube knows No, no one knows about Mace ose as as we were going along our journey as a company. We noticed that a lot of people are also asking for carbonates. Eso We've actually been working with kubernetes since I don't know 16 4017 something that for a while now and as Maur Maur as communities ecosystem starting involving mature more. We also want to jump in and take advantage of that. And we started building some products that were specific to kubernetes and eso. We thought, Look, you know, it's a little bit confusing for people May, SOS and Kubernetes and at times those two technologies were seen almost as competitive, even though we didn't always see it that way. The market saw it that way, so we said, Look, this is going too confusing for customers being called Mesa Sphere. Let's let's rebrand around Maur what we really do. And we felt like what we do is not just focus around one specific technology. We felt like we helped customers with more than that more than just may so support more than just community support, Andi said. Look, let's let's get us a name that shows what we actually do for customers, and that's really helping them take their workloads and put them on on Not just, you know, um, a source platform, but actually take their workloads, bring them into production and enterprise way. That's really ready for day two. And that's that's why we called it data. >>And let's unpack the day to, cause I think some people are really familiar with the concept of day two. And for some people, they probably never heard it. But it's a pretty interesting concept, and I think it packs a lot of meaning in it. A number of letters. I think you >>can kind of just think about it if you were writing software, right? I mean, Day zero is okay. We're gonna design it. We're gonna start playing with some ideas. We're gonna pull into different technologies. We're gonna do a POC. We're gonna build our skateboards. So to say, that's kind of your day. Zero. What do we want? Okay, we're gonna build a Data Analytics pipeline. We want spark. We're going to store data. Cassandra, we're gonna use cough. Go to pass it around. We're gonna run our containers on top of communities. That's just kind of your day. Zero idea. You get it working, you slap it on a cluster. Things are good right? Day one might be okay. Let's actually do a beta put in production in some kind of way. You start getting customers using it. But now, in Day two, after all that's done, you're like, Wait a second. Things were going wrong. Where's our monitoring? We didn't set that up. Where's our logging? Oh, I don't know. Like, >>who do we >>call this? Our container Run time, we think has above. Who do we call like? Oh, I don't know What support contract that we cut, Right? So that's the things that we want to help customers with. We want to help them in the whole journey, getting to Day two. But once they're there, we want them to be ready for day two, right? And that's what we do. >>I love it because one of my favorite quotes I've used it 1000 times. I'll do 2001 right? Is that open source is free like a puppy. Exactly for you. When you leave you guys, you're not writing a check necessarily to the to the shelter, But there's a whole lot of other check. You got a right and take care of. And I think that's such a key piece. Thio Enterprise, right. They need somebody to call when that thing breaks. >>Yeah. I mean, I haven't come from enterprise company. I was actually a customer basis Fear before I joined. Yeah, that's exactly why we're customers that we wanted. Not only that, insurance policy, but someone that partner with us as we start figuring this out, you know? I mean, just picking. You know what container run time do I want to use with communities? That one decision could take months if you're not familiar with it. And you you put a couple of your best architects on it. Go research container. You go research, cryo go research doctor. Tell me what's what's the best one we should use with kubernetes. Whereas if you're going, if you have a partnership with a company like day two, you can say, Look, I trust these. You know this company, they they're they're experts of this and they see a lot of this. Let's go with their recommendation. It's >>okay. So you got you got your white board. You've got a whole bunch of open source things going on, right? And you've got a whole bunch of initiatives and the pressure's coming down from from on high to get going, you've got containers, Asian and Cloud native and hybrid Cloud all the stuff. And then you've got some port CEO on his team trying to figure it out. You guys have a whole plethora of service is around some of these products. So as you try it and then you got the journey right and you don't start from from a standing start. You gotta go. You gotta go. So how do you map out the combination of how people progress through their journey? What are the different types of systems that they want to put in place and into, prioritize and have some type of a logical successful implementation and roll out of these things from day zero day 132? No, it's >>a great question. I think that's actually how we formed our product. Strategy is we've been doing this for a while now and we've we've gone. We've gone on this journey with really big advanced customers like ride sharing companies and large telcos customers like that. We've also gone on this journey with smaller, less sophisticated customers like, you know, industrial customers from the Midwest. Right? And those are two very, very different customers. But what's similar is they're both going on the same journey we feel like, but they're just at different places. So we wanted to build products, find the customer where they're at in their journey, and the way we see it really is just at the very beginning. It's just training, right? So we have, ah, bunch of support. We're sorry. Service is around training. Help you understand? Not just kubernetes, but the whole cloud native ecosystem. So what is all this stuff? How does it work? How does it fit together? How do I just deploy simple app to right? That's the beginning of it. We also have some products in that area as well, to help people scale their training across the whole whole organization. So that's really exciting for us once once, once that customer has their training down there like Okay, look, get I need a cluster now, like I need a destroyer of sorts and criminals itself is great, but it needs a lot of pieces to actually get it ready for prime time. And that's where we build a product called Convoy Say Okay, here is your enterprise great. Ready to go kubernetes destro right out of the box. And that product is really it's what you could use to just fiddle around with communities. It's also what you put into production right on the game. That's that's been scale tested, security tests and mixed workload tested. It's everything. So that's that's kind of our communities. Destro. So you've gotten your training. You have your destro and now you're like, OK, I actually wanna want to run some applesauce. >>Let me hold there. Is it Is it open corps? Or, you know, there's a lot of conversation in the way the boys actually >>the way we built convoy. It's a great question. The way we build convoys said, Okay, we don't We want to pick the best of breed from each of these. Have you seen the cloud native ecosystem kind of like >>by charter, high charter, whatever it is, where they have all the logos and all the different spiral thing. So it's crazy. Got thousands of logos, right? And >>we said, Look, we're gonna navigate this for you. What's the best container run time to pick. And it's It's almost as if we were gonna build this for ourselves using all open source technology. So convoys completely opens. Okay, um, there's some special sauce that we put in on how to bring these things together. Install it. But all the actual components itself is open source. Okay, so that's so if you're a customer, you're like, OK, I want open source. I don't want to be tied to any specific vendor. I want to run on Lee open. So >>yeah, I was just thinking in terms of you know, how Duke is a reference right. And you had, you know, the Horton worst cloud there and map our strategies, which were radically different in the way they actually packaged told a dupe under the covers. Yeah, >>you can think of it similar. How Cloudera per ship, Possibly where they had cdh. And they brought in a lot of open source. But they also had a lot of proprietary components to see th and what we've tried to get away from it is tying someone in tow. Us. I know that sounds counterintuitive from a business perspective, but we don't want customers to feel like if I go with D to like you. I always have to go with me to like you. I have to drink the Kool Aid, and I'm never gonna be able to get off. >>Kind of not. Doesn't really go with the open source. Exactly this stuff. It's not >>right for our customers, right? A lot of our customers want that optionality, and they don't want to feel locked in. And so when we built convoy, he said, Look, you know, if we were to start our own company, not not an infrastructure coming that we are right now, but just a software company build any kind of ab How would we approach it? And that was one of the problems we saw for We don't wanna feel like we're tied into any. >>Right. Okay, so you got to get the training, you got the products. What's >>next? What's next is if you think about the journey, you're like, OK, a lot. What we've found and this may or may not be totally true is one of the first things people like to run on committees is actually they're builds. So see, I see. And we said, How can we help with this. We looked around the market and there's a lot of great see, I see products out there right now. There's get lab, which is great partner of ours. It's a great product. There's there's your older products. Like Jenkins. There's a bunch of sass products, Travis. See all these things. But what we we wanted to do if we were customers of our own products is something that was native to Kubernetes. And so we started looking at projects like tectonic and proud. Some of these projects, right? And we said, How can we do the same thing we did with convoy where we bring these projects together and make it easy for someone to adopt these kubernetes native. See, I see tools. And we did some stuff there that we think is pretty innovative as well. And that's what that's the product we call dispatch. >>Okay. What do you got? More than just products. You've got profession service. That's right. So now >>you need help setting all this up. How do you actually bring your legacy applications to this new platform? How do you get your legacy builds onto these new build systems That that's where our service is coming the plate and kind of steer you through this whole journey. Lastly, what we next in the journey, though? Those service's compliment Really? Well, with with the kind of the rest of the product suite, right? And we didn't just stop with C i c. He said, what is the next type of work that we want to run here? Okay, so there we looked at things like red hat operators. Right? And we said, Look, red hats doing really cool thing here with this operator framework, how can we simplify it? We learn we've done a lot of this before with D. C. O s, where we built what we called the DCS sdk to help people bring advanced complex workloads onto that platform. And we saw a lot of similarities with operators to our d c West sdk. We said, How can we bring some of our understanding and knowledge to that world? And we built this open source product called kudo. Okay, people are free to go check that out. And that's how we bring more advanced workload. So if you think about the journey back to the journey again, you got some training you have your have your cluster, you put your builds on it. Now you want to run some advance work logs? That's where Kudo comes. >>Okay? And then finally, at the end of the trail is 1 800 I need help. Well, almost into the trail. We're not there yet. There was one thing they're still moving with one more step right on >>the very last one. Actually, we said, Okay, what's next in this journey? And that's running multiple clusters of the same. Okay, so that's kind of the scale. That's the end of the journey from for us, for our proxy as it stands right now. And that's where you build a product called Commander. And that's really helping us launch and manage multiple >>companies clusters at the same time. >>So it's so great that you have the perspective of a customer and you bring that directly in two. You know what you want because you just have gone through this this journey. But I'm just curious, you know, if you put your old hat on, you know, kind of c i o your customer. You know, you just talked about the cake chart with Lord knows how many logos? How do you help people even just begin to think about about the choices and about the crazy rapid change in what? That I mean? Kubernetes wasn't a thing four years ago to help them stay on top of it to help them, you know, both kind of have a night to the vision, you know, make sure you're delivering today on not just get completely distracted by every bright, shiny object that happens to come along. Yeah, no, >>I think it's really challenging for the buyers. You know, I think there's a, especially as the industry continues to make sure there's a new concept that gets thrown at all times. Service Manager. You know, some new, cool way to do monitoring or logging right? And you almost feel like a dinosaur. If you're not right on top of these things to go to a conference in, are you using? You know, you know B P f. Yet what is that? You didn't feel right? Exactly. I think I think most importantly, what customers want is the ability what, the ability to move their technology and their platforms as their business has the need. If the need isn't there for the business, and the technology is running well. There shouldn't be a reason to move to a new platform. Our new set of technologies, in fact, with dese us with Mason charities. To us, we have a lot of happy customers that are gonna be moving crib. Amazing if they wanted to anytime soon. Do you see What's that? Something's that criminal is currently doesn't do. It may never do because the community is just not focused on it that DCS is solving. And those customers just want to see that will continue to support them in the journey that they're on with their their business. And I think that's what's most important is just really understanding our customer's understanding their business, understand where they wanna go. What are their goals, So to say, for their technology platforms and and making sure you were always one step ahead >>of them, that's a >>good place to be one step ahead of demand. All right, well, thanks for for taking a few minutes and sharing the story. Appreciate it. Okay. Thank you. All right. Thanks. Chandler. I'm Jeff. You're watching >>the Cube. Where? Day two. I >>Q in downtown San Francisco. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time

>> live from Las Vegas. It's the queue covering Inform Attica, World 2019. Brought to you by in from Attica. >> Welcome back, everyone to the cubes. Live coverage of infra Matic A world. I am your host, Rebecca Night, along with my co host, John Furrier. We are joined by sir Rushman, and he is the senior vice president and general manager. Master Data Management here it in from Attica. Thank you so much for coming on the show. >> Thank you. It's great to be back. >> Great to welcome a Cube alum. So a major theme of this conference is customer 3 60 It's about customers need for trusted accurate data as they embark on their own digital transformation initiatives. Can you just talk a little bit about what you're hearing, what you're hearing from customers, what their priorities are? >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, with MGM, the promise of MGM has always been creating a trusted, authoritative version ofthe any business critical entity on DH who are the most important business critical entities for any organization customers. So almost 80 to 90% off. You know, if our customers are talking about re inventing a new customer experience because some >> of the >> things that they've been telling us is that we've all learned, you know, in the past that bad customer experience means that, you know, we've all had those experiences. We goto hotel, we use a particular airline, we have bad experience and we say, Promise ourselves we'll never go back there again. So organizations have always for years now understood that there is a cost to not delivering a good enough customer experience. The big change that I'm hearing, at least over the last you know, you're also now and especially at this event, is that organizations have now been able to quantify what great customer experience can mean in terms ofthe a premium that they can charge for that products or services. Now that is a big shift. When you start thinking about saying if I'd deliver a better customer experience, I'm actually be able to charge 10 cents more for a cup of coffee. I can charge, you know, 20% more for an airline ticket that now has a direct impact on the top line >> and data drives. This obviously data's a key part of it. What's changed this last year, I mean a lot happened. We see on the regular tourist my one year anniversary of GDP are a lot of pressure around regulation. We see everyone sees Facebook and goes, Oh my God, maybe I don't want to follow that trap. Woman Enterprise pressure to develop sass like applications with data because we know what cloud native and born the Cloud looks like. We've seen companies come out of the woodwork from his fresh start and used data as part of the input with a IE application for great software. So now the enterprise I want to do that exactly. It's hard, >> it's hard. And I think you know, they're in a lot of organizations minds, you know, collective minds. This is cushion pulled because in order to deliver that best possible customer experience, they realize they need to gather more data about us, right? Every in every touch, point, every interaction. If you can gain that complete 3 60 view, it just means that you'd be able to deliver better possible experience. But now you're gathering more data about customers into your example about Facebook. Now means that we in our custodians off what was you know, an explosion of data than what we used to have before. And if you're moving those to the cloud, how do I make sure that I don't end up, you know, in the front page of The Wall Street Journal? You know, like some of the other organizations have. So there is great, you know, volumes of data being collected. But how do I manage it? Secure it government effectively so that we don't have those? >> Don't ask a question. I have been talking a lot about fake news and Facebook lately because, you know, we're digital Cuba's official distribution. 10 years been doing it, putting out good payload with content. Great gets like yourself. But this really kind of too things. That's where I want to get your reaction to. There's the content payload. And then there's the infrastructure dynamics of network effect. So Facebook is an example where there was no regulation, I'll say they were incentive to actually get more data from the users, but she got content or data and then you got infrastructure kind of like dynamics. You guys are looking at an end to end. You got on premises to cloud that's it structure, and that's going to be powering the aye Aye, And the SAS data becomes the payload, right? So what? You're a zoo, a product management executive and someone thinking about the customer and talking to customers. How do you view that? What's the customers formula for success to take advantage of the best use of the content or data and digital while maximizing the opportunities around these new kinds of infrastructure scale and technology? >> Yeah, I think you know, they've come to the realization that data is not entirely sitting on premise animal, you know, in the in the in the old World, to get customer data, you go 23 applications of CR m nd R B and some kind of, you know, a couple of homegrown applications in on premise now for the same functionality. But that's wise of customer customer experience applications that whatever you call it, there's an app for it. And it happened to reside in the clouds. So now you have about 1,100 on average cloud applications that store components. So where do you where do you start bringing all of that content together? A lot of organizations have realized that, you know, do it in the cloud for two reasons because that's where the bulk of this data is being generated. That's where the bulk of this data is being consumed. But the other aspect of it is we're not no longer talking about hundreds of millions of records, but I just thought bringing in transaction data interaction later don't know billions of records, And where else can you scale with that? Much is other than the club s O. But at the same time, that is, there is a hybrid that is extremely important because those applications are sitting on premise are not going away. You know, they still serve up a lot of valuable customer data and continue to be frontline operation systems for a lot of the user. So a truly hybrid approach is being developed. I think that thought process is coming around where some domains live in the clouds. Some domains live on premise, but it's seamless experience across book. >> That's great insight I wanted Then follow up and ask you Okay, how did in from Attica fitted that because you guys want to provide that kind of horrors? Office scaleable data layer, depending on where the customer's needs are at any given time you got a pea Eye's out. There's things that Where do you guys How do you make that a reality? That statement you just made? >> Yeah. And the reality is eyes already being, you know, being lived today with a few of the few of our customers on it is that data layer that says, you know, we can, you know, bring data run work loads that are behind the firewall. We can do the same work, load in the cloud if that's where you want to scale the new workloads, but at the same time have a data layer that looks like one seamless bridge between the cloud and on premise. And that a number of different experiences that can, you know, help that we've invested in cloud, you know, designing and monitoring capabilities that allow view for a completely cloud like experience. But all of the data still decides on premise. It's still being managed and behind your firewalls, which is where a lot of the organizations are going as well, especially more conservative, more regulated organisations. >> One of things. I want to get your reaction to a swell, great great commentary, By the way, Great Insight is some success examples that might not be directly the inn from Attica, but kind of point to some of the patterns. Let's take slack, for instance, Great software. It's basically an IRC measures chat room with on the Web with great user experience. But the adoption really kicked in when they built integration points into other systems. So this seems to be a fundamental piece of informatics. Opportunity is, you kind of do this layer, but also integrating it. Because although you might have monitoring, I might want to use a better monitoring system. So So you're now thinking about immigration. How do you respond to that? What are you guys doing? Respected. Integration? What's What's the product touchpoints can He shared a commentary >> on Yeah, So you know, the openness off our entire data architecture and all of the solutions is something that we you know, I think they use the word Switzerland quite often. But what it also means is that you know, you are able to plug in a best of breed execution engine for a particular workload on a particular platform if you so desire. If you want to plug in a you know I am a model that happened to be developed on a specific let's say, an azure or a W You'd be ableto bring that in because the architecture's open completely FBI driven as a zoo mentioned. So we're able tto. Our customers have the flexibility to plug in, and we try to make that a little easier for them also, you know, as you might have seen some of the demos yesterday, we are providing recommendations and saying, You know, for this particular segment of your work, Lord, here are the choices that we recommend to you. And that's where Claire Gia, you know, comes in because it's very hard for users to keep up with all of the different possibilities. You know, our options that they might be having in that particular day, the landscape, and we can provide those recommendations to them. >> I want to ask about something you were saying earlier, and this is the company's heir using data to realize that they can charge a premium for a better customer experience. And that really requires a change in mindset from a gut driven decision making to a data driven decision making method and approach. How how are you seeing this? This mindset shift is it? Our company is still having a hard time sort of giving up my guts, telling me to do this in particular, with relationship to the new thie acquisition you made in February of all site. >> Yes. You know, I think the good news is, you know, across the board line of business leaders, CEOs, even boards are now recognizing custom experience. Customer engagement happened to be top of mind, but there's also equally react. You know, a recognition that data is what is going to help, you know, make this a reality. But so that was one of the reasons why you went out and, you know, do this acquisitions also, because if you think about it, customer data is no longer just a handful of slowly changing attributes like a name and address and telephone number or social media handles that, you know, you could be used to contact us. But it's really about now. Thousands of interactions we might have on the websites Click stream data Web chat, you know, even calls into call centers. All of this and even what we're tweeting about a product or service online is all the interactions and touch points that need to be pulled in and the dogs have to be connected in order. Bill that customer profile. So we have to do the scale, and that's something that Alcide, you know, has been doing very well. But it's now become more about just connecting the dots. So we can say, Here is this customer and this is the all the different Touchpoints customers had all the different products of purchase from us over the last few months. Few years. But now can we derive some inside some intelligence? So if I'm connecting four pieces of information cannot in for a life event, can I detect that an insurance customers ready to retire? Can I detect that this family is actually shopping for a vacation to Hawaii? That's the first level off Dr Intelligence Insight that we can now offer with. Also, the next level is also about saying >> cannot be >> understanding. You know, some of these, you know, intent. Can we also understand how happy is this customer, you know, have been mentioning competitive product, which can allow us to infer that person probably going to go off and buy a competitors product. If this problem they're having with this device or product is not resolved, so turn scoring, sentiment scoring. And now the third level on top of that which I think is really the game changer, is now. Can we in for what the next best action or interaction should be based upon all these things? Can we even do things such as, as I left here, not too happy customer with a particular maybe laptop that I, you know, perches I called the call center can before as a call is coming through, can we in for what I'm calling about based upon all of the interactions have had over the recent past and direct that call to 11 to 11 3 Technician who specialized in the laptop model >> that I have >> in orderto make me continue to be a customer for life. >> One of the biggest challenge is happening in the in the technology industry is the skills gap. I want to hear your thoughts on it and also how they help my how concerned are you about finding qualified candidates for your roles? >> So, you know, I think being a globally, you know, global organization with R and D centers distributed around the world. I think one of the luxuries we have is we're able to look across not just, you know, way from Silicon Valley, you know? And you know, there is a definitely a huge competition for skills over there. I think one of the things that we've been able to do is locations like Toronto we were just talking about. That's where Alcide is based. Extremely cool technology that's come out, that that's, you know, really transforming organisations and their approach. The customers stood guard, doubling bangle or Chennai Hyderabad. So you know, we are tapping into centers that have lots of skilled, you know, folks on DH calling hedging our you know, our approach and looking at this globally. Yes, there's definitely going to be even more of a demand as a lot of technology changes go for these skills. But I think, you know, by spreading you know that skills and having complete developed R and D centers in each of those locations helps us mitigate the farm. >> What about kids in school, elementary school, high school, college or even people retraining? Is there a certain discipline? Stats, philosophy, ethics will you see data opportunities for folks that may or may not have been obvious or even in place. I mean, Berkeley just had their first graduating class of data science this year. I mean, that's that's so early. People wanna hone in. What's what do you see? Its success for people attaining certain certain skills. What do you recommend? >> So I think that is definitely a combination ofthe technical skills, whether it is the new a n M L applications. But I think that is also, you know, in the past, we would have said, Let's go on higher than someone who has done computer science You know, on is very deep in that topic. But look at the problems we're trying to solve with data on the application of the animal. They're all in service of a business outcome, some kind of a business on DH more, we find people who are able to bridge the gap between strong application off the newer technologies on a animal and also an understanding off the broader world. And the business, I think, is really the combination of skills is really what's going to be required to succeed. >> Excellent, great note to end on. Thank you so much, sir. Arrest for coming on the show. >> Thank you. Thanks. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier. You are watching the Cube.

>> live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the key covering KubeCon Cloud, Native Con Europe twenty nineteen by Red Hat, the Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back to Barcelona, Spain >> were here of the era, and seventy seven hundred people are here for the KubeCon Cloud NativeCon, twenty, nineteen, Off student. My co host for the two days of coverage is Corey Quinn, and joining Me are the two co chairs of this CNC event. Janet Cooper, who is also thie, suffer engineer with Google and having done the wrap up on stage in the keynote this morning, find Lyle's a senior staff engineer with BM where thank you both for joining us, >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having me. >> So let's start. We're celebrating five years of Kubernetes as damn calm laid out this morning. You know, of course, you know came from Google board in over a decade of experience there. So it just helps out the state for us. >> Um, so I started working on communities since before the 1.4 release and then steal a project Montana today. And I feel so proud to see, uh, the progress off this project and its has grown exponentially. And today we have already thirty one thousand contributors and expect it to grow even more if you can. >> All right. So, Brian, you work with some of the original people that helped create who Burnett ease because you came to be and where, by way of the FTO acquisition, seventy seven hundred people here we said it. So it's, you know, just about the size of us feel that we had in Seattle a few months ago Way Expect that San Diego is going to be massive when we get there in the fall. But you know, talk to us is the co chair, you know, What's it mean to, you know, put something like this together? >> Well, so as ah is a long time open source person and seeing you know, all these companies move around for, you know, decades. Now it's nice to be a part of something that I saw from the sidelines for so, so long. I'm actually... it's kind of surreal because I didn't do anything special to get here. I just did what I was doing. And you know, Jan and I just wound up here together, so it's a great feeling, and it's the best part about it is whenever I get off stage and I walked outside and I walked back. It's like a ten minute walk each way. So many people are like, Yeah, you really made my morning And that's that's super special. >> Yeah. I mean, look, you know, we're we're huge fans of open source in general and, you know, communities, especially here. So look, there was no, you know, you both have full time jobs, and you're giving your time to support this. So thank you for what you did. And, you know, we know it takes an army to put together in a community. Some of these people, we're Brian, you know, you got upstate talk about all the various project. There's so many pieces here. We've only have a few minutes. Any kind of major highlights You wanna pull from the keynote? >> So the biggest. Actually, I I've only highlight won the open census open. Tracing merge is great, because not only because it's going to make a better product, but he had two pretty good pieces of software. One from Google, actually, literally both from Google. Ultimately, But they realize that. Hey, we have the same goals. We have similar interfaces. And instead of going through this arms race, what they did is sable. This is what we'LL do. We'LL create a new project and will merge them. That is, you know, that is one of the best things about open source. You know, you want to see this in a lot of places, but people are mature enough to say, Hey, we're going to actually make something bigger and better for everyone. And that was my favorite update. >> Yeah, well, I tell you, and I'm doing my job well, because literally like during the keynote, I reached out to Ben. And Ben and Morgan are going to come on the program to talk about that merging later today. That was interested. >> I've often been accused of having that first language being snark, and I guess in that light, something that I'm not particularly clear on, and this is not the setup for a joke. But one announcement that was made on stage today was that Tiller is no longer included in the current version of Wasn't Helm. Yes, yes, And everyone clapped and applauded, and my immediate response was first off. Wow, if you were the person that wrote Tiller, that probably didn't feel so good given. Everyone was copping and happy about it. But it seems that that was big and transformative and revelatory for a lot of the audience. What is Tiller and why is it perceived as being less than awesome? >> All right, so I will give you a disclaimer, >> please. >> The disclaimer is I do not work on the helm project... Wonderful >> ...so anything that I say should be fact checked. >> Excellent. >> So Well, so here's the big deal. When Tiller, when Helm was introduced, they had this thing called Tiller. And what tiller did was it ran at a basically a cluster wide level to make sure that it could coordinate software being installed and Kubernetes named Spaces or groups how Kubernetes applications are distributed. So what happens is is that that was the best vector for security problems. Basically, you had this root level piece of software running, and people were figuring out ways to get around it. And it was a big security hole. What >> they've done Just a component. It's an attack platform. It >> was one hundred percent. I mean, I remember bit. Nami actually wrote a block post. You know, disclaimer of'em were just bought that bit na me. >> Yes, I insisted It's called Bitten, am I? But we'LL get to that >> another. This's a disclaimer, You know, There Now you know there now my co workers But they wrote they were with very good article about a year and a half ago about just all the attack vectors, but and then also gave us solution around that. Now you don't need that solution. What you get by default. Now something is much more secure. And that's the most important piece. And I think the community really loves Helm, and now they have helm with better defaults. >> So, Janet, a lot of people at the show you talk about, you know, tens of thousands of contributors to it. But that being said, there's still a lot of the world that is just getting started. Part of the key note. And I knew you wrote something running workloads and cover Netease talk a little bit about how we're helping you know, those that aren't yet, you know, on board with you getting into the community ship. >> So I work on the C gaps. So she grabs one of the sub fracture that own is the work wells AP Eyes. That's why I had that. What post? About running for closing covered alleys. So basically, you you're using coronaries clarity, baby eyes to run a different type of application, and we call it were close. So you have stay full state wears or jobs and demons and you have different guys to run those clothes in the communities. And then for those who are just getting started, maybe start with, uh, stay last were close. That's the easiest one. And then for people who are looking Teo, contribute war I. I encouraged you to start with maybe small fixes, maybe take some documents or do some small P R's and you're reputations from there and star from small contributions and then feel all the way up. >> Yeah, so you know, one of one of the things when I look out there, you know, it's a complex ecosystem now, and, you know, there's a lot of pieces in there, you know, you know, trend we see is a lot of customers looking for manage services. A lot of you know, you know, I need opinions to help get me through all of these various pieces. You know what? What do you say to those people? And they're coming in And there's that, you know, paradox of choice When they, you know, come, come looking. You know, all the options out there. >> So I would say, Start with something simple that works. And then you can always ask others for advice for what works, What doesn't work. And you can hear from their success stories or failure stories. And then I think I recently he saw Block post about Some people in the community is collecting a potential failure stories. There is also a talk about humanity's fellow, the stories. So maybe you can go there and learn from the old those mistakes and then how to build a better system from there. >> I'd love that. We have to celebrate those failures that we hopefully can learn from them. Find anything on that, You know, from your viewpoint. >> Eso Actually, it's something I research is developer experience for you. Bernetti. So my communities is this whole big ping. I look on top of it and I'm looking at the outside in howto developers interact with Burnett, ese. And what we're seeing is that there's lots of room for opportunities and Mohr tools outside of the main community space that will help people actually interact with it because that's not really communities. Developers responsibility, you know, so one anything that I think that we're doing now is we're looking and this is something that we're doing and be aware that I can talk about is that we're looking at a P ice we're looking at. We realize that client go, which is the way that you burnett ese talks with sapi eyes, and a lot of people are using out externally were looking at. But what does it actually mean for human to use this and a lot of my work is just really around. Well, that's cool for computers. Now, what if a human has to use it? So what we're finding is that no. And I'm going to talk about this in my keynote tomorrow. You know, we're on this journey, and Kubernetes is not the destination. Coover Netease is the vehicle that is getting us to the destination that we don't even know what it is. So there's lots of spaces that we can look around to improve Kubernetes without even touching Cooper Netease itself, because actually, it's pretty good and it's fairly stable in a lot of cases. But it's hard, and that's the best part. So that's, you know, lots of work for us, the salt >> from my perspective. One of the turning points in Kou Burnett is a success. Story was when it got beyond just Google. Well, folks working on it. For better or worse, Google has a certain step of coding standards, and then you bring it to the real world, where there are people who are, Let's be honest, like me, where my coding standard is. I should try to right some some days, and not everything winds up having the same constraints. Not everything has the same approach. To some extent, it really feels like a tipping point for all of it was when you wind up getting to a position where people are bringing their real world workload that don't look like anything, anyone would be able to write a googol and keep their job. But still having to work with this, there was a wound up being sort of blossoming effect really accelerating the project. Conversely, other large infrastructure projects we need not mention when they had that tipping point in getting more people involved, they sort of imploded on themselves. I'm curious. Do you have any thoughts as to why you Burnett? He started thriving where other projects and failed trying to do the same things. >> I have something you go first. And >> I think the biggest thing about cybernetics is the really strong community and the ecosystem and also communities has the extensive bility for you to build on top of communities. We've seen people building from works, and then the platform is different platforms. Open source platforms on top of you. Burnett is so other people can use on other layers. Hyah. Layers off stacks on top of fraternities. Just use those open source. So, for example, we have the CRD. It's an A P I that allows you to feel your own customized, overnighted style FBI, so they're using some custom for couple databases. You could just create your own carbonated style FBI and call out your database or other stuffs, and then you can combine them into your own platform. And that's very powerful because everywhere. I can just use the same FBI, the Carbonari style idea to manage almost everything and that enables a Teo be able to, you know, on communities being adopted in different industry, such as I o t. A and Lord. >> So actually, this is perfect because the sleaze and so what I was going to say The secret of community is that we don't talk about actually job, Ada says. It's a lot, but it's a communities is a platform for creating platforms. So Kubernetes really is almost built on itself. You can extend Cooper. Netease like communities extends itself with the same semantics that it lets users extended. So Janet was talking about >> becoming the software that is eating the world. Yeah, it >> literally is. So Janet talked about the CRD sees custom resource definitions. It's the same. It's the same mechanism that Kubernetes uses to add new features. So whenever you're using these mechanisms, you're using Kou Burnett. He's basically the Cooper Nate's infrastructure to create. So really, what it is is that this is the tool kit for creating your solutions. What is why I say that Kubernetes is not an end point its its journey. >> So the cloud native system. >> So you know what? Yeah, and I like I like the limits analogy that people talk about. Like Coburn. Eighties is is like clinics. If you think about how Lennox you know little l. Lennox. Yeah. You know, I'm saying little l olynyk sub Let's put together. Yeah, you Burnett. He's like parts of communities would be system. And it's it's all these components come together the creature operating system, and that's the best part about it. >> Okay, so for me, the people that are not the seventy seven hundred that air here give them a little bit of, you know, walk around the show and some of the nooks and crannies that they might not know, like, you know, for myself having been to a number of these like Boy, there were so many half day and full day workshops yesterday there were, like, at least, like fifteen or seventeen or something like that that I saw, You know, obviously there's some of the big keynote. The Expo Hall is sprawling it, you know, I've been toe, you know, fifteen twenty thousand people show here This sex Bohol feels is bustling ahs that one is and well as tons of breakout session. So, you know, give us some of the things that people would have been missing if they didn't come to the show here. >> So just for the record, if you missed the show, you can still watch all the videos online. And then you can also watch the lifestream for keynotes so on. I personally love the applicant the different ways for a customizing covered at ease. So there's Ah, customizing overnight is track. And also there's the apple that applications track and I personally love that. And also I like the color case studies So you can't go to the case studies track to see on different users and users off Cooper, Natty shared. There were war stories, >> Yes, So I think that she will miss. There's a few things that you'll miss if you if you're not here in Barcelona right now, the first thing is that this convention center is huge. It's a ten minute walk from the door to where we're sitting right now, but more seriously, one. The things you'LL miss is that before the conference starts, there are there are a whole bunch of summits, Red had had a summit and fewer people had some. It's yesterday where they talk about things. There's the training sessions, which a lot of cases aren't recorded. And then another thing is that the special interest groups, the cigs. So Cooper ninety six, they all get together and they have faced the face discussions and then generally one from yesterday We're not. We're not recorded. So what you're missing is the people who actually make this big machine turn. They get together face to face and they first of all, they built from a rotary. But they get to discuss items that have require high bit of bandwith that you really can't do over again of issue or email, or even even a slack call like you can actually get this thing solved. And the best thing is watching these people. And then you watch the great ideas that in, you know, three, six months to a year become like, really big thing. So I bet yesterday, so something was discussed. Actually, I know of some things that we discussed yesterday that might fundamentally change how we deal with communities. So that's that is the value of being here and then the third thing is like when you come to a conference like this, where there's almost a thousand people, there's a lot of conversations that happened between, you know, the Expo Hall and the session rooms. And there's, um there's, you know, people are getting jobs here, People are finding new friends and people are learning. And before thing and I'll end with This is that I walk around looking for people who come in on the on the diversity scholarships, and I would not hear their stories if I did not come. So I met two people. I met a young lady from New Zealand who got the scholarship and flew here, you know, and super smart, but is in New Zealand and university, and I get to hear her insights with life. And then I get to share how you could be better in the same thing. I met a gentleman from Zimbabwe yesterday was going to school and take down, and what I hear is that there's so many smart people without opportunities, so if you're looking for opportunities, it's in these halls. There's a lot of people who have either money for you or they have re sources were really doesn't have a job or just you know what? Maybe there's someone you can call whenever you're stuck. So there is a lot of benefit to come into these. If you can get here, >> talent is evenly distributed. Opportunity is not. So I think the diversity scholarship program is one of the most inspirational things I saw mentioned out of a number of inspirational things that >> I know. It's It's my favorite part of communities. You know, I am super lucky that I haven't employees that our employer that can afford to send me here. Then I'm also super lucky that I probably couldn't afford to send myself here if I wanted to. And I do as much as I can to get people >> here. Well, Brian and Janet thank you so much for all you did to put this and sharing it with our community here. I'Ll repeat something that I said in Seattle. Actually, there was a lot of cloud shows out there. But if you're looking for you know, that independent cloud show that you know, lives in this multi hybrid cloud, whatever you wanna call it world you know this is one of the best out there. And the people? Absolutely. If you don't come with networking opportunities, we had into it on earlier, and they talked about how you know, this is the kind of place you come and you find a few people that you could hire to train the hundreds of people inside on all of the latest cloud native pieces. >> Can I say one thing, please? Brian S O, this is This is significant and it's significant for Janet and I. We are in the United States. We are, you know, Janet is a minority and I am a minority. This is the largest open source conference in the world. Siri's This is the largest open source conference in Europe. When we do, when we do, it ended a year. Whenever we do San Diego, it'Ll be the largest open source conference in the world. And look who's running it. You know, my new co chair is also a minority. This is amazing. And I love that. It shows that people who look like us we can come up here and do these things because like you said, opportunity is is, you know, opportunities the hard thing. Talent is everywhere. It's all over the place. And I'm glad we had a chance to do this. >> All right. Well, Brian, Janet, thank you so much for all of that. And Cory and I will be back with more coverage after this brief break. Thank you for watching the cues.

(upbeat music) >> From Washington D.C. it's theCUBE. Covering ScienceLogic Symposium 2019. Brought to you by ScienceLogic. >> I'm Stu Miniman and you're watching theCUBE's exclusive coverage of ScienceLogic Symposium 2019 here at the Ritz-Carlton in Washington D.C. Happy to welcome to the program a first time guest off the keynote stage this morning Bailey Szeto who is the Vice President of Customer and Seller Experience IT at Cisco. Thanks for coming and joining us. >> My pleasure. >> All right so Bailey, I've actually, you know I've watched, and partnered, and worked with Cisco my entire career but you actually changed my view of something about Cisco in your keynote this morning. And that's, you know, you said that 99% of Cisco's 50 billion dollars plus is transacted online so I should be thinking of you more as like Amazon.com you know, than as, you know the networking giant I've know my entire career. >> Well You know it's certainly true that most of our revenue comes through our online presence but it's perhaps in a different manner than what you're thinking right? So obviously we do do some business direct and we might have some stragglers selling, buying something with a credit card, but that's not the bulk of our business. The bulk of our business is through primarily partners, resellers and when I say online I meant B to B transactions. >> No no. I totally understand Bailey and what I love is you're in Cisco IT. >> That's right. >> And therefore we're not going to talk about a lot of the networking pieces. We're going to talk about what runs Cisco's business and you have the pieces and you know client success and support and all those run, and even, I didn't even realize the employee engagement all runs through you know Cisco.com >> That's right. >> And I love you did a nice little video. Gave all of those that have been in the industry. You kind of go through and look at the history of like oh okay there's the HTML stuff I used to code. >> That's right, that's right. >> Back in the 90s through all of the updates and yeah we definitely-- >> I was just expecting the little triangle with the guy like shoveling dirt under construction. You know the shovel right? >> Yeah the 404 not found. >> That's right, that's right. >> I know if I go to Cisco.com/go/product name that usually was a short cut to get me to some of the things I care about but for those people who weren't here for the key note or who might not know as much give us a little bit about you know your purview and kind of the scale and scope of what you do. >> Yeah so at Cisco I'm in Cisco IT. But I'm responsible for supporting all of the revenue generation portions of the company. So that's specifically marketing and what they do, sales and what sales does. Cisco services is a very big part of our company so I support the services organization. And most recently Cisco's been on a journey to really kind of move from a once and done hardware sales motion to a full reoccurring revenue type of stream. So we've stood up the whole customer success motion. And so I run the IT portions of that as well. And last but not least you heard me mention that 85% of our revenue actually comes through our partners. So I support all the systems that are partners interact with as well. >> Yeah it's interesting so we've done theCUBE at Cisco Live the last two years. >> Sure. >> And there's a observation I made a year ago when I started going to that show. And it was you know, if I'm a networking person but this applies to you know most people in IT, I used to manage stuff I could touch and go, I understand where it is and how I touch it and everything. Now a lot of what I have to deal with is outside of my purview and therefore I need to get into that environment kind of pair that with you know companies like yourself that are inquisitive. And so you have lots of change going on and lots of things that are in your environment there so we know change is the only constant in our industry. >> Without a doubt. >> So maybe give us a little bit of those dynamics and how that impact what's happening in your world. >> Yeah so I mean we talked a bit about my responsibilities and one of this is Cisco.com It's probably one of the more important platforms that I'm responsible for from an IT perspective. But I also mentioned that Cisco's a very, we grow through acquisitions a lot. It's one of our basic business strategies. And so every time we buy a company it's a big rush to kind of take that acquired company and integrate their online presence into Cisco.com right? So once a company is acquired we don't want people to think of it as a separate company both from a kind of marketing perspective but more importantly we're actually integrating that product into our Cisco ecosystem as well. So just having to move all that technology into Cisco.com is certainly a big job. But I think you are maybe asking this from a different perspective as well which is to say okay you know new technology is being introduced all the time and while it makes sense from a company portfolio perspective I think as a former IT person you're going to agree with me it makes our jobs a little bit more difficult. It's both a blessing and a curse right? From the perspective it's a blessing in that we get this great new technology to incorporate and use in our running of the business but it also adds a lot of complexity and so it's pretty important that we have both the systems and processes to be able to manage all that complexity in our infrastructure really. >> All right so infrastructure monitoring. >> Yes. >> Something you spent a lot of time talking about. I guess I'll set it up when I talked to my friends in the networking space these days or a lot of it, the joke is if you say single pane of glass they are going to spell it P-A-I-N because we understand that there's not one tool to rule them all. >> Right. >> Yes that I might have a primary piece but in the virtualization world I had to plug in to V Center and you know Cisco has you know you laid out a broad portfolio of various tools up and down and across the stack from you know security down to physical and upper layer and plus all the acquisitions. So can you lay out a little bit as to you know where ScienceLogic fits and there's a number of Cisco's tooling that that integrates in with. >> Yeah so when I talked about our journey with ScienceLogic you know Cisco of course has a number of tool and capabilities to take care of the pieces that we are known for. For example Application Dynamics is a great company that we bought and provides great insight into application health. But obviously in a network perspective right we have Cloud Management software, security software that type of thing and so I think what we realized in Cisco IT what my team realized is that it really isn't about a single system to rule them all it's about trying to find multiple platforms that can work together and really share data so as to drive richer insights. And so I think maybe the industry has been on a bit of a wrong path think it's you know it's not Lord of The Rings, one ring to rule them all or whatever right? It's about being able to use multiple applications but having the right data insides move around as needed so that depending on your lens or your role in IT whether you're a network guy or an application guy that you're going to use the tool that's more most natural to yourself but pulling in the right amount of data from those other parts to be able to get the right insight. >> Yeah I saw your closing slide mirrored the theme we've seen at the show of superheroes. So the super power everybody needs in IT today is how do I leverage my data and we understand that it probably takes more like the Avengers to be able to put those together because data is everywhere. >> Yeah the funny thing is that that wasn't actually a set theme. I think we must all have Avengers on our mind because everyone independently came up with the super hero concept. >> Yeah no spoilers on End Game either way though. >> That's right, that's right. >> Excellent so you know can you just bring us inside of some of that ScienceLogic journey? My understanding you're probably the largest enterprised employment of it so you know we always love to talk about scale and what that means and how it's been in your viewpoint. >> Yeah you know we actually before ScienceLogic we actually had our own system that Cisco IT wrote right and so you know as IT professionals we always think we can do it better than anyone else but we've reached a point where just so much technology and so much complexity came to the market that we really wanted to find a solution that would really kind of enable us to grow into the future with all the things that are happening right whether you're talking about Virtualization with Containers or you know Cloud native applications or Multicloud, these are all technology trends that have made our jobs in IT incredibly complex. And so we started to look for what could we replace our home grown monitoring platform with and ultimately we decided that ScienceLogic was the best fit for us. And since we've deployed it we as with most things we tend to stretch the scale especially with our vendors and so I think we are the largest ScienceLogic enterprise customer at this point. But we are seeing incredible benefits in terms of being able to connect ScienceLogic's Infrastructure Monitoring with our own Application Dynamics and really marry the two for those insightful bits that we get from both. >> All right so one of the big themed discussion here is that journey toward AI Ops. >> Yes. >> While we speak actually I've got a team in Mountainview that is at the DevNet Create Show which Cisco helped organize. >> Sure. >> We're doing two days of interviews there and DevSecOps is probably one of the key topics their going to be talking about. In your keynote this morning I heard IT Ops in a discussion there so bring us inside a little bit organizationally you know what you're seeing you know your viewpoint on these various trends that are you know helping to modernize you know transform operations. >> Yeah I think from a operations organization standpoint you're going to see the applications team and the infrastructure team work even closer together. Maybe one of the things that didn't really make super clear in my keynote this morning is I actually work on kind of the app side of the house right? I'm the direct interface to the business. And as such I actually don't interface with ScienceLogic directly but I'm a strong partner with my infrastructure team who are I think they are all sitting over there that do run ScienceLogic right and so in today's world you really can't just say oh this is infa problem they are going to deal with it. Because of that really big mix of well is it an infrastructure problem, is it an application health problem? And a lot of times it's both. And so organizationally it might be two separate organizations but the need to work together is you know even greater today than ever before. >> You're preaching to the choir. I mean when we launched Virtualization and then later when Containers came around there was the nirvana that oh I'm going to have some unit of infrastructure where the application people just don't need to worry about it. >> Right. >> You know serverless from it's name seems to imply that but we understand that eventually you know there's networking, there's storage, there's compute all underneath these kind of things. >> That's right. >> It's just repackaging so you know the applications important you know I'm long time infrastructure guy. >> That's right >> But, the number one rule is the reason we are here is to run that application and make sure your data you know gets where it needs to be otherwise you know we're not here just to power things. >> That's right. And I just realized I probably would get in trouble if I said it's actually the application, infrastructure, and of course the network all has to work together. >> Yeah well that's a given. Can you just we talked a little bit about App Dynamics you know when I think about Cisco you know broad portfolio, you know the SD-WAN, the ACI how do some of those fit into this discussion are there tie ins with what ScienceLogic is doing? >> It absolutely does. So as I talked about it when we talked about that collection of super heroes it's not a single super hero it's not a duo either it's really a big team. It's The Avengers right? And so when you think about Cisco's portfolio we have a lot of additional components needed to provide that modern operating IT operating platform right? So we talked about a lot about Application Dynamics we talked about ScienceLogic but what Cisco brings to the mix is things like ACI, Tetration, Policy Enforcement, Multicloud Management. So all those things again have to work together like The Avengers do to provide that modern platform. >> Yeah you mentioned multicloud and I know in your keynote you talked about AWS and GCP. >> That's right. >> How's Cloud changing things in your world? >> It absolutely is again it's I'll go back to the it's both a blessing and a curse right? The blessing is enormous capability that we get from the Cloud, enormous flexibility. As and example using Cisco.com as an example we host a lot of you know a lot of public information about our products and websites and data sheets and that type of thing on Cisco.com. And then a couple years ago we decided we're going to refresh the engagement of Cisco.com We wanted to make it much more personalized. We wanted to incorporate video. Those are all great things but the moment you try to throw video and guess what? Native video whether it be in English or French or Chinese or Japanese depending on where you are well that put an enormous strain on our infrastructure and if you had to travel if the packets had to travel from Japan to the United States to our data center that would slow things down. So we took advantage of Public Cloud to really kind of push out the content to the edges so that we could get localized content as close to the customer as possible. That's the great thing about it. But again the management of that increasing complexity right so both a blessing and a curse. AWS, GCP, we are using for doing a lot of video streaming work. And so again great capabilities from that platform as well. >> All right so we saw this week a lot of announcements of some of the integrations Service Now and App Dynamics were two of the ones that highlighted that I think impacted you. Anything from the announcements that is particularly excited you and I guess final on that is there anything roadmap wise that you know you'd be looking directionally for this phase to evolve towards? >> Yeah I think I was excited to see in fact that's one of the main reasons why we chose ScienceLogic in the first place was the quality and the amount of integrations that they have right? And so we're also a big Service Now customer and we see the benefits of automatically open cases in Service Now when ScienceLogic detects an issue as an example right? And I would say going forward we'll be looking to either have out of the box or if needed you know Cisco IT will build something even more integrations with the Cisco products. We already have App Dynamics but as I mentioned we have a lot of other components that are critical to the network and so we'll be looking for tighter integration and all this to drive really drive data together so that we can get to what I think what most people at this conference are hoping to achieve which is really driving towards automation and AI Ops right? So that's really the desire for I think for everyone attending this conference. It's certainly our desire in Cisco IT. And you know I'm looking forward to working with ScienceLogic to building out that roadmap. >> You know so I guess final question for you you talked about that automation, where are you when it comes to we look at you know things like machine learning and automation which if you listen to the analyst that spoke this morning is like you want to make sure you separate those things. >> That's right. >> We understand you know any of us that have done process and operations is you know you can automate a really bad process and it's not a good thing. >> That's right, that's right. >> So where are you on that journey? What do you see? You know what are the barriers that keep us from kind of the nirvana where you know oh geez I can actually just seal off the data center and let everything run? >> Right I think it's funny you mentioned Cisco Live so actually I present on a topic of AI at Cisco Live as well. So what this other speaker talked about really hit home with me understanding what is AI really. Because I think there's a general perception in the press that it's like this magical fairy dust you can just sprinkle on everything and it like makes everything perfect right? AI is really good at pattern recognition but you still need to put some check points and really have human beings kind of check the work of AI right? And so you know we actually have seen data center outages not Cisco but in the press when AI runs amok right? And so I think the first step of automation that's a given. We want to do that but that involves a lot of human beings kind of looking at the data and deciding okay these sequence of events can be cured by this set of automation. AI Ops is a something that's a whole different thing if you followed the definition of AI to say okay let the computer do it all on its own. I don't think we're there yet. I think we have a ways to go. And I certainly wouldn't trust want to trust our you know multi billion dollar business to AI Ops at this point in time. >> Well Bailey there's an event we did a couple years ago with a couple professors from MIT that are really forward looking on this and they say it's racing with the machines because people plus machines will always do better >> Yes. >> Than people alone or machines alone and hopefully that keeps some of us that are a little bit worried about the Skynets of the world taking over from getting a little bit too paranoid all of a sudden. >> I totally agree with that statement. In fact the quote that jumps in my head is "Better together". And I'll close with ScienceLogic App Dynamics better together. People AI better together. >> All right well Bailey since you ended on a perfect quote there thank you so much for joining and I hope to see you at Cisco Live San Diego. >> Fantastic, my pleasure. >> All right and thank you so much for watching theCUBE as always, I'm Stu Miniman here at ScienceLogic 2019 in Washington D.C. (upbeat music)

(pulsating electronic music) >> Welcome everybody, this is theCube, I'm Paul Gillin. Physical security and cybersecurity have traditionally been sort of isolated worlds, they didn't talk to each other. But in the age of the Internet of Things we now have unprecedented opportunities to unite these two traditionally separate areas. Armored Things is a startup out of Boston and is doing some very interesting work in using intelligent devices to make decisions and to intuit patterns in crowd behavior which has applications in cybersecurity, crowd management, traffic management, a lot of different potential uses of this technology. With me are Julie Johnson the co-founder and President of Armored Things, and Chris Lord, the Chief Technology Officer, Welcome. >> Thank you. >> Why don't you describe in a nutshell, let's start out, what you do Julie. >> Great, Armored things is building software to do next generation incident response. We're using the IOT devices and their data to power decisions across large environments used for safety. So for example the data that we're collecting can be used to get better situational awareness within seconds and drive incident response in seconds instead tens of minutes, which is the state of the art today. >> And so it's sounds like, is security the primary target area or are there others? >> That's right, we sit at the intersection of physical and cybersecurity. This information can also be used to drive additional value over time but right now we're really focused on achieving that mission, using these devices, this technology to improve both the physical and cyber realms for Internet of Things. >> Chris why don't you give us an example of how your technology might be applied? >> Sure, so a very common one is, you know active shooter. People are very concerned about active shooter, and so how can you leverage all the data that you have across different devices, different systems that you have out there, in order to understand what happened, and get people the right information at the right time. A more commonplace example might be something like a protest formation. So if you look at a university campus where you might have a controversial group meeting on campus and you need to get early warning when there's a protest forming on the other side. Our technology will allow you to see that before it's gotten to a critical proportion or before it's marching down the street. >> So why don't you take a deeper dive and talk about what, how are you federating these devices? How are you using these multiple devices together? >> Well that's exactly what we are. So we're a data analytics layer across all the silos of data that you already have in your environment. So as you look around you might have motion sensors in your environment, you might have access control systems in your environment, you have wireless infrastructure in your environment, all these things are used for specific purposes now but nothings really trying to correlate and connect the data across all of them. So Armored Things builds a layer across all of them, brings that data together to give you better understanding of what's going on in your environment, people and your physical space. >> Julie talk about how the company came about, what are the origins? >> Sure, so I started working with Charles Curran our CEO about two years ago at Qualcomm. We were really focused on understanding the security portion of the IOT layer and how to manage these things in enterprise. So if you're familiar with IOT in the household there's been a lot of proliferation around turning your lights on, understanding who's at your front door, but in enterprise it's been much slower to adopt. Fundamentally we believe that part of that was because management took a lot of time. Every time you provisioned a device it took a number of minutes and because there was an intrinsic lack of security on each of the devices. So we went around and started talking to different potential customer groups about what it would look like to bring more IOT into their environments. And we really got pulled into universities, and large sporting and entertainment venues, who we're still working with as our primary customers today. Because they saw a desperate need for IOT, not only to save time on managing these devices, and to make sure that they're secure in their environments, but also to use them for physical security. So now that we've spent, you know $15 million in selling IP video cameras, or a few million dollars in selling access control systems, how do we actually elevate their use from what they were initially intended for. That spend has a secondary use when it comes to physical security. That ability to, you know quickly get cameras on the scene of an incident. That ability to harness data coming off of motion sensors or environmental sensors. How do we use all of that information to drive an awareness of our environments day-to-day and then use it in critical emergencies for a better response. >> I understand you're working with some sports teams right now. Can you describe a scenario in which you might be able to help them manage crowds more effectively? >> So there was a great example we heard about two weeks ago from a top team, who's recently hosted some World Series events. They had a unfortunate incident where they were watching, they were hosting a watch party for the World Series in their venue during an away game, and they handed about 40,000 paper tickets out. They got a great turnout, 20,000 people came to the venue. But in the seventh inning of the game the other 20,000 people decided that they also wanted to be in the venue in order to celebrate. That was a pretty unanticipated event. Usually in the fifth or sixth inning you start to consolidate your entrances, you start to consolidate your security personnel and send them to other parts of the venue, and the net result of that was they ended up closing the doors, not allowing additional entrance in, and tweeting that there wouldn't be additional people allowed to enter. There were a lot of security issues with letting 20,000 people in, in the seventh inning, not of the least is you don't know where they're coming from, and you don't really know what their intent is in coming so late to that venue. But there's patterns in the data that we could've seen sooner. So hypothetically, understanding that a normal game day has a couple hundred people entering in the fifth, sixth, seventh innings. Seeing a significant uptick in that number of people coming into your environment should immediately say, what's unique, you know what's different about this situation? Now how do I tie in my resources, my security personnel, my responders, and just maybe notify people who are in charge of making these types of decisions, so that we're not closing the gate and tweeting out to our fans that there's no more entries. >> And getting back to the technical nuances of this situation, how might your technology detect this crowd assembling before it was even visually apparent? >> Good question, so there's many, many different things. So part of what we do is rely on diversity of data from different sources. So that might be mobile devices. That might be from wireless. That might be from cameras that you have there and doing occupancy counts on those cameras. It might be from other, you know motion sensors you have in your environment. All this data gets aggregated so that we can come up with a good understanding of population and flow within your environment. So we would have early indications and bring that awareness to people that have to respond, people who might be sitting in a network operations center, and looking at other cameras but not seeing the information. So we can bring the information right there, notify them that there's a problem forming before it's gotten to critical proportions. >> Fantastic. >> One more thought on that is there's kind of a unique advantage in data to go beyond what humans can perceive. When we're looking at these knocks, you know they have thousands of video cameras potentially united in one central screen. It takes not only having the right camera up but also noticing a degree of difference that might be quite minute, to actually see it as an anomaly in real-time. So you can imagine, you know a university campus where people are walking through the campus at a certain pace every single day. One day everyone's walking just 30% faster, not running just walking, why? You know is there a suspicious package? Is there someone gathered there that you know is attracting people that they don't necessarily want to be associated with, or end up in a vulnerable position? How can we see that in the data faster than someone in the control room might notice it and alert people to respond. >> And with machine learning, of course now we have the means to do that. Chris, talk about the, it strikes me that there must be a lot of complexity involved. You've got a great diversity of devices out there you have to connect to. Every institution would have a different fabric. How are you technically pulling this all together? >> Well the nice thing about a lot of these technologies is there is standardization across many of these different types of devices, and there are, you know there are tiers of players right. And so we do have to be selective about who we integrate with. We are integrated with the top-tier players in all these categories, and we'll prioritize other integrations over time based on our customers and our market so. >> And Julie, what are your plans for deployment? What's your timeframe? >> We're looking to rollout our first generation of product in the next nine to twelve months. That really drives home at that situational awareness piece. So before we even get to building through incident response at scale, the ability to give people very specific cues during a critical emergency. How do we start with getting more information to the people who are there? So getting occupancy, flow, the dynamics of movement around a campus or a large venue. How do we start equipping the police personnel, and security personnel to make better decisions and drive value from there. >> I understand there's no shortage of demand for your solution. >> We do have some top-tier universities, and pro-sporting and entertainment venues who we're working with to build the right solution not just the solution that we think is needed, but the solution that they're telling us, "Hey we would really like to use something like this." >> I also understand you've pulled together a team, kind of a dream team, talk about some of the people that you've brought on board for this operation which few people have even heard of. >> Yeah so I think the first of those you're seeing here, so Chris joined us as co-founder and CTO and has been really an asset to this team given his background in cybersecurity from Carbon Black and before that. And you know if you want to add more to that please feel free to. >> No thanks. >> We've also brought in, I would call it two pillars of our strategy. One one the physical security side and one on the machine learning data analytics side, and those two women are Elizabeth Carter. Who came to us from Apple, where she led crisis management for the Americas. She previously worked at Chertoff Group where she sat at the intersection of physical and cybersecurity, and before that actually worked for the city of New York, where she understood weapons of mass destruction, different types of biological and chemical weapons response planning. So she's kind of the pillar of our physical security response understanding and driving product. The other woman, her name is Clare Bernard and she recently joined us from another Boston startup called Tamr where she was running product and engineering for them. Clare's background is actually in particle physics. She was BU and John's Hopkins, and happened to work with the team that discovered the God particle while she was getting her PhD. So we' think she's as smart as you can find, and is going to help us think about these data challenges, the analytics piece at a scale that, you know we think has the potential to really improve physical security and cybersecurity. I would be remiss if I didn't mention the rest of our team. Our CEO Charles comes from a background in the venture capital community and is just incredibly knowledgeable about the process of building a company from the ground up, and has many skills when it comes to recruiting as well. Really helped drive some of these hires forward and the rest of the team is the next generation of rising stars, people from Oracle, HP Vertica, other Carbon Black individuals. People who just have experience from across the board that's going to help us build the right solution. >> And you know at a time when diversity has been a major issue for tech companies, I understand your team is unusually well represented. >> I think our executive team is about 60% women, which we're very proud of. I think our team in general might actually be, >> About that too, yup. >> About 60% women, which we're also very proud of. And I'd like to say that that's organic. That we've worked with some great advisors and potential customers, and I do think that from my perspective, it's been helpful to have younger women coming in who see a path forward for senior women in executive roles in their company. I think that's something that can't be underestimated. >> Where do you stand in funding right now? >> We just closed our first institutional capital about a week and a half ago. We're still finishing the close of that round but we have a Boston based partner who's very focused on machine learning and analytics, and also has been a well recognized investor in the cyber security realm. So we're very fortunate to have this investor as our partner, and excited to keep working with them. >> Chris, as someone whose background is in cybersecurity how do you see the security landscape changing now with the IOT coming on and the possibility of really transforming the way organizations look at their physical and cybersecurity operations? >> Good question, so over time they're converging, and they're converging I think more rapidly than we expected, so now I'm going to step back a little bit and say that there's a lot of parallels. Cybersecurity I think is probably about five years ahead of physical security in terms of maturity of technology and approaches to problems. And then so what we're seeing right now, and we're part of the force behind that, is taking the learnings from cyber security and applying them to physical security right. So when we talk about situational awareness, when we talk about the data analytics that supports that, and when we talk about incident response and orchestration automation. All of those are core to taking cybersecurity and applying it to physical security. In terms of convergence, we're seeing many cases, and this is going back a number of years, where people are using cyber events to create physical problems right. Stuxnet is a classic example, but you can do the same thing by taking over something and instilling panic in a stadium, and causing you know, all sorts of grief, cyber driving physical. You can also see cases where people who are running cybersecurity operation centers want access to physical knowledge of their environment in order to do their job better. Whether it is a malicious insider that they suspect, whether it's an infection that occurs on a particular machine, being able to pull up the cameras, know who was there at the time, bringing all that information together, is again necessary in order to understand their perception of situational awareness. So two converging towards one, we're going to be building towards that goal from our perspective. >> Now the flip side of federating IOT devices is that the bad guys can do the same thing. So you potentially have a much broader attack surface. That has to be factoring into your thinking. What is the embedded security in your platform? >> So, we're not going to address fully that right now, but so we take advantage of best in breed security principles in our design both for security and for privacy. But in terms of the dependency we have on a lot of IOT devices and IOT systems, part of what helps us is diversity of data across those, and diversity of devices right. And so while you might have compromises in specific cases, the fact that you are dealing with so many, and so many different categories at the same time, allows you to maintain and fulfill your mission, and deliver what you're trying to do regardless of some of those individual compromises. We're also in a unique vantage point where we can actually see the operational integrity of what's going on. So when you look across all those different categories and you look at the data that we're collecting, whether it's malicious or not, we're able to identify a failure, and bring that to the attention of the people who are dependent on those systems. So we could be an early morning to cyber events, malicious or not. >> Julie, entrepreneurs love to dream. I'm sure you are thinking big, beyond the immediate cybersecurity applications. Where could Armored Things eventually go? >> That's a great question. The dream is that we become not only the dominant solution for physical and cyber security for schools and large venues. But we bring our solution into K, 12 where some of this is desperately needed. That's kind of the mission orientation of our team. How do we start to drive value in a way that we can get to every school in the country sooner. In the longer term though, I think there's a lot of opportunities with IOT and we're still kind of at the tip of the iceberg here. We're going to see all sorts of new devices come online over the next two, five, 10 years. The growth of these devices is incredible. And the question is how do we continue this challenge of solving the data at scale in a way that continues to drive value, not just for some of the first use cases, which are often around marketing, and understanding an environment in that sense, but also continuing that physical cybersecurity angle. >> Enormous potential and hope you stay based in Boston. We can use more companies like that. Chris Lord and Julie Johnson, thanks very much for joining us today on theCUbe. >> Thanks Paul. >> Thank you. >> Armored Things, keep your eye on them. You're going to be hearing a lot more about this company in the months to come. I'm Paul Gillin, this is theCube.