>> Announcer: From around the globe. It's the cube with coverage of Kubecon and cloud nativecon North America, 2020 virtual brought to you by Red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to theCUBE, >> Coverage of Kubecon cloud nativecon 2020. It's virtual this year, though, theCUBE is virtual. This is theCUBE virtual I'm John Furrier your host. This is the segment where we kind of pre tease out the show for this year. We do a CUBE review and analyze and talk about some of the things we're expecting trends in the marketplace. And I'm pleased to announce a new CUBE co-host with me, Ali Amagasu, who's been part of theCUBE community since 2013, going back to the OpenStack days, which is now different name, but it's private clouds making a come back. But she's part of the cloud community, the cloud Harati, as we say, Ali, welcome to being a CUBE host. >> Thank you so much, John. It's a pleasure, it's been a while since we've hung out, but I do remember pestering you back in those days, and I've certainly stayed with theCUBE ever since then. I mean, you guys are an institution to put it. >> It's been so much fun, I have to say I had less gray hair. I didn't have glasses, I wear contacts. Now I have progressive vision, so I can't wear the contacts. They're hard for me, but it's been such a great evolution. And one of the things that's been really important to our mission has been to be kind of like an upstream project to be kind of open and be part of the community to be on the ground floor. We can't be there this year 'cause of the pandemic, but it's been great and about a few years ago, Stu Miniman and I were seeing that we had a great community of people who wanted a co-host, and we got a great community host model. And thanks for coming on and being part of this mission, it's been important to our mission. We've got Lisa Martin, Rebecca Knight, John Troyer, Keith Townson, Justin Warren, Corey Quinn, to name a few. So welcome to the crew, thanks for coming on. >> Sure I'm happy to step in. >> So I want to go back in time. I mean, when we first met in 2013, you were a part of Metacloud, which got acquired by Cisco at that time, OpenStack was hot, OpenStack was at the cloud. And if you think about where Amazon was at that point and time, it was really the beginning of that sea change of rapid cloud scale, public cloud, specifically OpenStack kind of settled in, and that's kind of making a nice foundation for private cloud right now. It's still out there, telco clouds. You're seeing that trend, but this is the sixth Kubecon we've been there at all of them. We were there at the founding president creation. What an interesting turn of events. The world is kind of spun in the direction of all the conversations we were having back in 2013, 14, 15, 16. Now fast forward Kubernetes is the hottest thing on the planet and cloud native is the construct for all these modern apps, so what's your take on it. What's your view on this? 'Cause you've been riding this wave. >> Well, I think it's interesting. You brought up OpenStack because I remember in those days, OpenStack was smoking hot. And I remember talking to some of the organizers from the foundation, what they said was we want OpenStack to be boring. We want it to be part of the background. We will know we've made it when it's boring. And we could argue that they're there now, right? They aren't what we're talking about as much, but they're still there, they're still doing their thing. They're still growing as far as I know. So that's happened and now Kubernetes is the incredible hotness and it's just exploded. And so it turned from, you know, just a few projects, to now, if you look at the list of projects that are in incubation list of projects that have graduated, it's pretty long, and it's an impressive set of capabilities, when you look. >> It's been really interesting, you know, Dan Collin who's, the Ben was the director of the CNCF. I remember talking to him early on. And when he came, when he joined, he was, he hustled hard. He was smart. And he had a vision to balance the growing ecosystem cause he's done successful startups. So he kind of kind of knows the rocket ship labor, but he basically brought that entrepreneurial startup mentality. And I saw him in China when I was there with Intel with Alibaba conference in the lobby of the hotel, I'm like, dad, what are you doing here? So the CNC, I was already thinking global. They build out the most impressive landscape of vendors to participate in cloud nativecon and Kubecon At the same time, they maintain that end user focused. If you look at Envoy, right, it came from Lyft. So you have this really nice balance. And you know, it was always people chirping and complaining about this, that, and the other thing on the vendor's side. But the end user focus has been such a strong hand for Kubecon and the CNCF. It's just been really impressive and they maintain that. And this is the key. >> And I think what's impressive is that they've evolved. They've continued, they haven't sat there and said, "We've got a couple of fantastic projects," right? They're bringing in new ones all the time. They're staying at the cutting edge. They're looking at serverless and making sure there's projects that are taking care of that. And so I think that's, what's keeping it relevant, is the fact that they're relentlessly evolving. >> Yeah, and we comment, I think two years ago, Stu and I were pontificating about, can they maintain it? And one of the things that we were predicting, I want to get your reaction to this is that as Kubernetes becomes more standard and you're starting to see the tipping point now where it's beyond just testing and deploying in some clusters, you're starting to see Kubernetes native and in part of everything, in part of the future as service meshes and wrap around it and other things, the commercialization, the success of the vendor side is starting to be there. You starting to see real viable companies be started. So do they become end-users or so? So the question was, can it maintain its open source vibe while you have all this commercialization going on? Because that's always the challenge in open source. How do you balance it? What's your reaction to that threat or maybe an opportunity? >> I don't think it's a threat. I think there will always be folks who want to do it themselves. They want to use the vanilla upstream, Kubernetes. They want to build it. They don't want any vendor interference. There's also a very other solid other camp that says, "No, no, we don't want to deal with the updates ourselves. We don't want to deal with the integration with networking and security and all those things." And the vendor takes care of that. So I really think it's just serving two different audiences that as far as I can tell are changing, they're not, I don't see one side growing and one side shrinking. I really see it staying same, pretty stable. And so it's serving both teams. >> Yeah, I totally agree. And this is what's great about evolution. And when you talk about the community gets about the people involved. And I was riffing with someone the other day and were like, "Hey, you know what makes CNCF different?" And we were saying that everyone kind of knows each other. So as you have, you know, the most popular thing at Kubecon is the hallway tracks, right? So hallway tracks are always popular. And just being in the hallways, we call it lobby con and the CUBES on the floor there. So there's a lot of hallway conversations as hallway tracks, there's lightening talks, there's always something exciting, but even though people might move around from company to company for project to project, everyone kind of knows each other. So I think that kind of gives this kind of self governance piece, some legs. >> It does, and you're bringing up something that's really relevant right now 'cause it's virtual this year, right? So we don't get to have those hallway conversations. We don't get to have those, you know, accidental, you know, connections that means so much. I think they did an amazing job, amazing with the European version of Kubecon and you know, they're doing the best they can, I think the attend, I heard the attendance was great. The sessions were incredible from an efficiency standpoint. If you're an attendee, you could hit so many more sessions from home. There was so much to learn, the content was fabulous. The one thing that's missing, and I don't know how they replicate it is that ability to connect with your colleagues in the hallway, the folks you haven't seen'cause they, they moved on, they went to a different company. Maybe they'd been to two or three companies since you saw them last and the one place, you know, you're going to see them is at Kubecon or some of the other conferences you attend. >> Yeah and talking to Priyanka. And some of the co-chairs one of the things that was interesting out of that last conference was you had the virtual theater, but the Slack channel was very engaging. So you had people leaning in on the dialogue and it's interesting. And this is where I want to ask you your thoughts on the top conversations as we prepare. And we start doing the remote interviews, with the leaders of the CNCF, as well as the top end users, as well as vendors and companies, people want to know what's the top conversation that's happening and what are we looking for? So I want to ask you, what are you looking for, Ali? What are the things that you're trying to squint through? What smoke signals you're looking for? What's the trends that you're trying to tease out a coupon this year? >> I'm going to be really interested. You know, I already mentioned it once, but I'm going to be interested to hear how the new serverless projects are going. I know there are a couple in incubation that sounds really interesting. Priyanka brought them up when I've spoken with her. And so I'd love to see if those are getting so traction. What does the momentum around those look like? Is there as much excitement service meshes there was last year. I know there was a lot of discussion about what was happening with search. Most people were really excited. So I want to know what's happening with that. I want to know how new users to the community are dealing with the proliferation of projects. You know, how are they finding out ways to get involved? How are we nurturing new members to the CNCF community and making sure that they aren't overwhelmed, that they find their niche and they're able to contribute to become users, to do whatever their role is meant to be. I think those are the interesting things to me. How about you? >> That's a good question. I mean, I've, there's so many things. I mean, I look at the first of all, the open source projects are phenomenal. And again, talking about the people, I love to see the things that are maturing and getting promoted and what's kind of in sandbox, but I look at the, some of the ecosystem landscape maps with the vendors. And if you look at Amazon, Cisco and the HPE, IBM cloud, red hat, VMware to name a few, and you've got some other companies like Convolt for instance, which is pivoting to a cloud service, Microsoft Palo Alto networks for security Rancho was acquired., you know, a lot of companies are, I think at capital one out there, always in great end. You always great stuff. You got interesting and in Docker, for example, cup Docker containers, we did Docker con this year and I was blown away by the demand, the interest and just the openness of DAPA as they re-pivoted back to their roots. But I'm interested to see how the big cloud vendors are going to play because Google has always been an impressive and dominant partner in KubeCon, Amazon then joined, Azure is in there as well. So you've got those three, the big three in there. So the question is, okay, as this ecosystem is growing, I'm trying to tease out what is this, everything as a service, because one of the things that's coming out on the customer side, if you work backwards from the customer, they're getting kind of the missions from the CEOs and the CIO or CSO saying, "Take everything as a service," which is kind of like, I call it the ivory tower kind of marching orders. And then it gets handed down to the cloud architects and the developers and they go, "What's that? How's that, how does it's kind of hard?" It's not easy, right? So the modern apps is one and then this, everything as a service business model is going to be based upon cloud native. So I think the cloud native, this is the year that cloud native is going to start showing some signs and some visibility into what the metrics are going to be for success around the key projects. And then who can deliver at scale, do everything is a service. So, you know, understanding what that means, what does Kubernetes enable? What are some of the new things? So to me, I'm trying to tease that out because I think that's the next big wave. Everything is a service. And then what that means technically, how do you achieve it? Because when you start rolling out, it's like, okay, what's next? >> Yeah, I wonder who are going to be the new super users that emerged from this, you know, who are going to be the companies that maybe didn't adopt early, they're getting in now and they start running with it and they do incredible new things with it. And the truth is going to your earlier point about whether or not commercializing that, you know, should it be an upstream thing where you're using it vanilla using, you know, pure Kubernetes or using a vendor version? The truth is when you start getting vendors involved and getting super users involved, and these big companies, they can throw 10, 20 people at projects as contributors. You know, I tend to think of open source as being a bunch of small companies, but the truth is it's a lot harder for a small company to dedicate multiple head count to full-time contributions, right? Well big company, you could throw a couple dozen at them and not even blink. And so that's, it's critical to the survival truthfully of the community that we have, these big companies get in there and run with it. >> You know, I was talking to Constance and Steven Augustus, they're both co-chairs of the event and Steven brought up something. That's interesting because it's the theme that's kind of talked about, but no one likes to talk about it because it's kind of important and ugly at the same time. It's security and I think one of the things that I'm looking for this year, Ali is, you know, there's a buzz word out there has been kind of overused, but it's still kind of relevant and it's called shift left. So shift left means how do you build security into the CICB pipeline? So developers don't have to come back and do stuff, right? So it's like baking security in. This is going to be kind of a nuance point because of course everyone wants security, but that's not what application developers think about every day, right? It's like, they're not like security people, right? So, but they got to have security. So I think whoever can crack the code on making security brain dead easy will be great. And how that works together with across multiple vendors. So to me, that's something that I want to understand more. I don't yet have a formed opinion on it, but certainly we're hearing "Shift left" a lot. >> Yes I agree 100% at first we had developers and operators. Then we had devOps. Now I hear sec devOps all the time. You know, that I started hearing that last year and now these poor developers, you know, suddenly they are, whether they want to be, or not, to some degree, they are responsible for their company security, because if they aren't integrating best practices into their code, then they are introducing vulnerabilities. And so it it's just fallen upon them, whether they signed up for it or not, it's fallen upon them. And it'll be real interesting to see how that plays out. >> Well, one of the things I'd love to do is get me, you John, Troy, Keith Townsend, Justin Warren, and certainly Corey Quinn on a podcast or CUBE interview because man, we would have some war stories and have some real good stories to tell the evolution of what's real. And what's not real. Certainly Cory queen allows to talk about kind of like squinting through the hype and calling out kind of what's real, but this is kind of really kind of what's going on with coop comes a lot of exciting things. So I have to ask you over the years within CNCF and cloud nativecon and Kubecon, what are some of your favorite memories or moments that you can share could be personal, could be professional, could be code, could be accompany. What's some of the things that you can share about some, some happy moments for Kubecon >> Sure, sure, I'd say for me, some of the best moments have been the recent pivot toward trying to take care of the attendees. You know, I don't remember if it was San Diego. I think it was San Diego where they brought in all the puppies or mental wellness. And there was a meditation room. I don't know if you went in there, but it was quiet. And there was just some very soft lighting and some quiet music. And I didn't know how much traction that was going to get amongst attendees, that room was packed every time I went in there, dead quiet people relaxing, the puppies were bananas. People were just hoarding around the puppies and wanting to pet them. And I just really liked the way that they had really thought of a bunch of different angles to try to make sure that people who have left their families, they've come to a different place. They're, they're, they're under stress. 'Cause they're probably traveling with their boss and a bunch of their colleagues and they're stressed. And so to make sure that they had a break, I thought that was really somewhere where KubeCon was ahead of a lot of the other conferences I see. And it wasn't a single approach. It wasn't, we're going to throw a bunch of dogs in the hallway. It was, we're going to do that. We're going to have a therapist do a session. We're going to have puzzles in a quiet area at the hallway. It really went all in. And so for me, that was one of my favorite things from recent years. I thought that was fantastic. How about you? >> It's been fun. I mean, it's just so many moments. I mean, I love the European show. We did one year when I first, first time they had rolled out in Europe and I thought that was just so small and intimate. Of course the big mega shows have been great with activity. I think, but one of my favorite moments was I was wandering in the lobby. This was in Europe. It was, and it was a huge EU event, I think 2018 might've been, and I'm kind of buzzing around the lobby and I had nothing to do that night. And it was like five to 11 different parties to go to. People have, you know, dinners. And I ran into one of the CNCF co-hosts and also she's a Google engineer and I'm like, "Hey, what are you guys doing?" I'm like, she's like, "Oh, we're going to the women's happy hour." And I'm like, "Oh, that's cool." I'm like, "It sounds good." And she invited me and I went with her and I was the only guy there, okay. >> Oh lucky you. >> And I looked around and it was packed. And I said to myself, this is freaking amazing. And it was great women, great leaders, smart, super awesome. And they were all welcomed me. I wasn't like being stared at either, by the way. So I'm like, okay, there was no line for the men's room either by the way, just to, you know, and I was like, good tweet there. But I felt really welcomed. And I thought that was very cool. It was packed. And I went back until it's too much. Do you can't believe it was just really awesome. I was in this awesome happy hour. And I remember saying to myself, "This community is inclusive, they're awesome. And it was just one of just a great moment. >> It's great you've got to be the other side of that, right? Because as a woman, I am always on the standard side of it, which has guys everywhere, there's very few women, but here's the thing I have never felt intimidated or uncomfortable in any way at a Kubecon I've always felt welcomed, I've had fabulous interactions. I've met people from around the world. And I try to explain to my kids actually, when we talk and they they'll say something sometime not xenophobic, maybe that's an overstatement, but they're little kids. They don't have a great understanding of the world. And I'll say, "Wait till you grow up and you go to one of these conferences, you'll realize that people from countries that even fear that some of them there's some of the kindest, nicest, most polite people I have ever met. And you walk away really feeling like you want to just throw your arms around everyone, that's been my experience anyway. S0 maybe I've been lucky, but I haven't had that intimidation factor at all. >> You got it, you've got a great mindset and your kids are lucky. And I feel like for me, the moment was the community is very open and inclusive. And I think theCUBE when we interview people, we want people who are smart, you know, and we interview a lot of great women and at KubeCon, it's been fantastic, so that's the highlight. And of course the grueling hours, and then, you know, people like to drink beer in this community. And I like beer, although I'd been trimming down a little bit because, you know, IPA's have been kind of getting heavy on me, but good beer drinkers. They like to have fun and they also work hard and it's a great community, so. >> And now you have to bring your own beer. Now that it's virtual, you have to keep your own IPA. >> Well, the joke was virtual is that we can have a better lunch at home. 'Cause that's always kind of like the event thing. But I think virtuals, I miss the face to face, but we get to talk to more people with remote and they get more traffic on the site, but hopefully when it comes back, it'll be hybrid and we'll still be kind of doing more remote, but more face-to-face. >> So well, and it's more affordable. I did not look at what the pricing is this time, but I know for the European version, the pricing was very fair, certainly more affordable than going in real life. And, you know, for some folks who really can't swing that travel costs and the registration fee, it's a great opportunity to get in on the cheap and suck up a lot of knowledge really quickly. >> Well, Ali, thank you for riffing on Kubecon preview. Thank you very much. And looking forward to hosting with you and thanks for co-hosting on theCUBE, appreciate it. >> Thank you so much, John. I enjoyed it. >> Thank you, okay you're watching theCUBE virtual. This is a Kubecon preview. I'm here with Ali. I'm a goo who's our new CUBE host helping out on the Kubecon looking forward to more interviews, this is the CUBE I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's The Cube, with digital coverage of VMworld 2020, brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone to The Cube's coverage of VMworld 2020 virtual. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, and Stu Miniman, who's covering VMworld virtually from our Cube virtual studios, where we've been doing The Cube coverage for the past six months virtually. Guys, let's wrap up VMworld virtual this year, different, not in person, still packed with content. Again, they tried to replicate and they did a good job of bringing that site together. They didn't overdrive the platform. They have content, but still a big gap in not having it in person. A lot of action on Twitter. Certainly, we've been commenting on cube.net site, and getting all these videos out. But guys, let's wrap up VMworld this year. Great show. Again, content's virtual. So a lot of asynchronous content. The cloud city, lot of solution demos of obviously, Cube commentary on our side. But Dave, what's your reaction to the past few days? >> Well I thought, you know, as always, VMware has some highlight folks show up to their keynotes. John Donahoe, who knows a little bit about the enterprise 'cause he did a couple of years stinted service now, then he jumped to back to his consumer roots, went to Nike. Interestingly, the service now, the company left is, they're approaching $100 billion evaluation now. They're zoning in on Nike. Of course, and then, you had the Nvidia CEO. Everybody does business with Nvidia. And so, that's kind of a check box, but they actually get the CEO to come to your event. I think it's a big deal. So as always, people want to do business with VMware 'cause they got half a million customers, and I thought that was a pretty impressive gets. >> And the CEO from Nvidia, Jensen Huang. I mean, you couldn't ask for a timely guest because of the news with them buying Arm. >> Huge. >> Nvidia just is a key player in the chip game right now. >> Yeah, and I think too, you know, some of the announcements VMware made around Edge and even Telco, Nvidia is going to be huge there in Arm. You know, we think that that is going to be a really new and interesting AI inferencing at the edge. There were some AI announcements, so very strategic. Again, you know, VMware does a great job of identifying those waves and driving engineering to drive customer value. >> Stu, I want to get your take on the announcements, and Dave, you can chime in too 'cause as we saw the Snowflake IPO, to me, this is, this basically rings the bell for the worldwide global computer industry around cloud native. This, to me, puts the full stake in the ground, cloud native. VMware made some bets, Stu. We go back and look at Gelsinger's moves, and Sanjay's move, and the team's moves. Your thoughts on the announcement there, networking, a lot of multicloud, but it's all about operational cloud native, your thoughts. >> Yeah, well John, cloud's so important, you know? Let me make an analogy here. We all talked about, if this pandemic had happened, enter 15 years ago and we were stuck at home without our Netflix, without our Zoom, without our connectivity, where would we be? John, when we started coming to the VMworld show in 2010, it was a huge amount of gear sitting in Moscone and the amount of trucks that needed to deliver all of that. Of course today, it's all built in the cloud, doing those labs are so much easier, and learning and enabling these technologies can be done so much easier. So I think that that really puts a highlight on where we are with the technology and you know, that was one of the key things that we saw in that announcement. So we're VM, we're fit with the big HyperCloud players, how they're hoping to extend, what they have in a hybrid environment from a management standpoint, starting to push out to Edge Solutions, VMware has strong strength with service providers. So there's a lot of things there to dig into, and that we wouldn't have had if we were talking about this five years ago. >> I just love the glam of the Nvidia 'cause the AI angle there is super important, but I'm, you know, I love the Project Monterey, Stu because it kind of digs out VMware trying to set the agenda on Architecture. This is the end-to-end, you know, whether it's the edge of the network from a work perspective person. Even in space, a purpose-built devices at the edge still need to be updated by software. This is a huge architectural shift. Do you think VMware's got the right moves here? >> Well John, VMware's got some great strength in the service provider environment, and of course, you know, great strength in data center. They've been growing their cloud capabilities. So Edge is still a little bit of a jump ball, as we'd like to say. Absolutely like some of the things that they're doing, strong partnerships. We talked about Nvidia, absolutely one of the companies you want to be closely working to to be successful at the edge. So I like what I'm seeing, but as with anything with VMware, until they have thousands of customer doing it, it's still a little bit early for me to have any final say. >> Stu, 30 seconds left. >> Yeah- >> Tanzu portfolio and partnerships. >> Yeah, so the critique I'd have, John, is VMware have been trying for years to go deeper with developers and they've made some progress, but they haven't done enough. They have moved doing more with open source, they've made a number of acquisitions in the space, but it's all about developers, it's about building those apps. If you talk about a hybrid message, you know, Microsoft, nothing about bit but building new apps. VMware is starting to get there, but they still have work to do. >> Guys, great job, 2020 is in the books. The Cube is via virtually. And again, 10 years ago, John Troyer, Eric Nielsen, Robin Matlock was our partners. Now, we're going with the next generation with VMware the next 10 years. Unpredictable, we'll see how it goes. Thanks for joining us today, appreciate it. Okay, thanks everyone for watching. Cube coverage of VMworld 2020. I'm John Furrier, with Stu Miniman, and Dave Vellante. Thanks for watching.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube covering HP. Discover Virtual Experience Brought to you by HP >>Everyone welcome to the Cube studios here in Palo Alto, California We here for remote conversation. Where for HP Discover virtual experience. 2020. We would Kumar, Sri Context, chief technology officer and head of Software Cube alumni. We've been following Kumar since he started Blue Data. Now he's heading up the software team and CTO at HP and Robert Christensen, VP of Strategy of Office of the CTO Robert Both Cube alumni's Robert, formerly with CTP, now part of the team that's bringing the modernization efforts around enterprises in this fast changing world that's impacting the operating models for businesses. We're seeing that playing out in real time with Covert 19 as customers are modernizing the efforts. Guys, thanks for coming on. Taking the time. >>You're welcome, John. Good to be back here, >>Kumar. First I have to ask you, I have to ask you your new role at HP sent it up to CTO but also head of the software. How >>do you >>describe that role Because you're CTO and also heading up? This offers a general manager. Could you take him in to explain this new role and why It's important. >>Thank you. Thank you, John. And so good to be back. You get two for one with me and Robert didn't. Yeah, it's very exciting to be here as the CTO of HB. And as Antonio described in in his announcement, we consider software will be very key, essential part of the our people as a service. And, uh, we want we see that it's an opportunity for not only layer division but help drive the execution of that reason. Both organic them in our. So we we see we want to have a different change of software that helps the customers, too, to get us to the workloads optimized, or are there specific solutions? >>You guys were both on the Cube in November, Pre cove it with the minimum John Troyer talking about the container platform news, leveraging the acquisitions you guys have done at HP Kumar, your company Blue Data map, our CTP, Robert, the group. You're there really talking about the strategies around running these kinds of workloads. And if you think about Cove in 19 this transformation, it's really changing work. Workforces, workplaces, workloads, work flows everything to do with work and people are at home. That's an extension of the on premise environment. VPN provisions were under provisional hearing all these stories, exposing all the things that need to be worked on because no one ever saw this kind of direction. It highlights the modern efforts that a lot of your customers are going through rubber. Can you explain? And Kumar talk about this digital transformation in this cove it and then when we come out of it, the growth strategies that need to be put in place and the projects take a minute to explain. >>Go ahead. Robert Cover has been spending a lot of time with our customers, and I would like to go ahead. >>Yeah, thank you so much. It's Ah, uh, accelerators. What's happened? Many of our clients have been forced into the conversation about how do I engage our customers, and how do we engage our broad constituents, including our employees and colleagues, in a more rapid and easier way? And many of the systems that were targeted to make their way to a public cloud digital transformation process did not get the attention just because of their size and breadth and depth effort. So that's really put an accelerator down on what are we gonna do? So we have to be able to bring a platform into our clients organizations that have the same behavior characteristics or what we call you know, the same cloud experiences that people are expecting public. Bring it close to our client's data and their applications without having that you don't have a platform by which you can have an accelerated digital transformation because it's historically a public cloud. But the only path to get that done, what we're really considering, what we introduced a while ago was platform near our clients applications. That data that gives them that ability to move quicker and respond to these industries, situations and specifically, what's happened with company really pushes it harder for real solutions Now that they can act on >>Kumar, your thoughts on this pre coded >>Yeah, yeah, this is the piece of acceleration for the digital transformation is just is a longer dynamically multiplied the code. But I think as you pointed out, John the remote working and the VPN is the security. We were as an edge to the Cloud platform company we were already in that space, so it's actually very, very. As Robert pointed out, it's actually nice to see that transformation is his transition or rapidly getting into the digitization. But one thing that is very interesting to note here is you can you can lift and shift of data has gravity. And you actually saw we actually see the war. All the distributor cloud. We see that we're glad to see what we've seen we've been talking about prior to the Kool Aid. And recently even the industry analysts are talking about we believe there is a computer can happen where the data is on. But this is actually an interesting point for me to say. This is why we have actually announced our new software platform, which we as well, which is our our key differentiator pillar for our as a service people that companies are facing. >>Could you talk about what this platform is? You guys are announcing the capabilities and what customers can expect from this. Is that a repackaging? Is there something new here? What's is it something different, Making something better? What? Can you just give us a quick taste of what this is and what it means. >>Good love alive. >>Yeah, so yeah, that's a great question. Is it repackage There's actually something. Well, I'm happy to say. It's a combination of a lot of existing assets that come together in the ecosystem, I think a platform that is super unique. You know, you look at what the Blue data container Onda adoption of communities holistically is a control plane as well as our data fabric of motion to the market with Matt Bahr and you combine that with our network experiences and our other platform very specific platform solutions and your clients data that all comes together in intellectual property that we have that we packed together and make it work together. So there's a lot of new stuff in there, But more importantly, we have a number of other close partners that we've brought together to form out our as moral platform. We have a new, really interesting combination of security and authentication. Piece is through our site L organization that came underneath with us a few months back and are aggressive motion towards bringing in strong networking service that complexity as well. So these all come together and I'm sure leaving a few out there are specifically with info site software to continue to build out a Dr solution on premises that provides that world class of services that John >>Sorry, Johnny, was the question at the beginning is, what is that? Why the software role is This is exactly what I was waiting for that that that moment where Robert pointed out, our goal is we have a lots of good assets. In addition to a lot of good partnerships, we believe the market is the customers want outcome based solutions. Best motion not. I want peace meal. So we have an opportunity to provide the customers the solution from the top to the bottom we were announced, or the Discover ML ops as a service which is actually total top to the bottom and grow, and customers can build ml solutions on the top of the Green lake. This is built on HP is moral, so it's not. I wouldn't use the word repackaging, but it is actually a lot of the inorganic organic technologies that have come together that building the solution. >>You know, I don't think it's ah, negative package something up in >>Toto. So I wouldn't >>I didn't think >>negative, but I was just saying that it is. It's Ah, it's a lot of new stuff, but also, as Robert said included, or you built a very powerful container platform. As you said, you just mentioned it that you've gone. We announced the well. >>One of the things I liked about your talk on November was that the company is kind of getting in the weeds, but stateless versus State. Full data's a big part >>of >>it, but you don't get the cloud and public cloud and horizontal scalability. No one wants Peace meal, that word you guys just mentioned or these siloed tools and about the workforce workplace transformation with Cove it it's exposing the edge, everybody. It's not just a nightie conversation. You need to have software that traverses the environment. So you now looking at not so much point solutions best to breed but you guys have had in the past, but saying Okay, I got to look at this holistically and say, How do I make sure I make sure security, which is the new perimeter, is the home right or wherever is no perimeter anymore is everywhere, So >>this is now >>just a architectural concept. Not so much a point solution, right? I mean, is that kind of how you're thinking about it? >>That's correct. In fact, as you said, the data is generated at the edge and you take the compute and it's been edge to the cloud platform. What we have, actually what we are actually demonstrating is we want to give a complete solution no matter where the processing needs are. And with HP, you have no that cloud like experience both as UNP prime as well as what we call a hybrid. I think let's be honest, the world is going to be hybrid and you can actually see the changes that is happening even from the public cloud vendors. They're trying to come on pram. So HP is being established player in this, and with this technology I think provides that solution, you can process where the data is. >>Yeah, I would agree it's hybrid. I would say Multi cloud is also, you know, code word for multi environment, right? And Robert, I want todo as you mentioned in your talk with stew minimum in November, consistency across environments. So when you talk to customers. Robert. What are they saying? Because I can imagine them in zoom meetings right now or teleconferencing saying, Look it, we have to have an operating model that spans public on premise. Multiple environments, whether it's edge or clouds. I don't wanna have different environments and being managed separately and different data modeling. I won't have a control plane, and this is architectural. I mean, it's kind of complex, but customers are dealing with this right now. What are you hearing from customers? How are they handling and they doubling down on certain projects? Are they reshaping some of their investments? I mean, what's the mindset of the customer >>right now? The mindset is that the customers, under extreme pressure to control costs and improve automation and governance across all their platforms, the business, the businesses that we deal with have established themselves in a public cloud, at least to some extent, with what they call their systems of engagement. Those are all the lot of the elastic systems, the hype ones that the hyper scale very well, and then they have all of their existing on premises, stuff that you typically heavily focused on. A VM based mindset which is being more more viewed as legacy, actually, and so they're looking for that next decade of operating. While that spans both the public and the private cloud on Premises World and what's risen up, that operating model is the open source kubernetes orchestration based operating model, where they gives them the potential of walking into another operating model that's holistic across both public and private but more importantly, as a way for their existing platforms to move into this new operating model. That's what you're talking about, using state full applications that are more legacy minded, monolithic but still can run in the container based platform and move to a new ballistic operating model. Nobody's under the impression, by the way, that the existing operating model we have today on premises is compatible with the cloud operating model. Those two are not compatible in any shape. Before we have to get to an operating model that holistic in nature. We see that, >>and that's a great tee up for the software question Robert, I want to go to. Come on, I want to get thoughts because I know you personally and I've been following your career. Certainly you know. Well, well, well, deep in computer science and software. So I think it's a good role for you. But if you look at what the future is, this is the conversation we're having with CIOs and customers on the Cube is when I get back to work postcode. But I've gotta have a growth strategy. I need to reset, reinvent and have growth strategy. And all the conversations come back to the APS that they have to redevelop or modernize, right? So workloads or whatever. So what that means is they really want true agility, not just as a punch line or cliche. They gotta move security into the Dev Ops pipeline ing. They got to make the application environment. Dev Ops and Dev Ops was kind of a fringe industry thing for about a decade. And now that's implement. That's influencing I T ops, security ops and network ops. These are operational systems, not just, you know, Hey, let's sling some kubernetes and service meshes around. This is like really nuts and bolts business operations. So, you know, I t Ops has impacted SEC ops isn't impacted. They're working us not for the faint of Heart Dev Ops I get that now it's coming everywhere. What's your thoughts on that? What's your reaction? >>We see those things coming together, John. So again, going back to the Israel were the world we believe this innovative software is. It can run on any infrastructure to start with, whether it's HP hardware knowledge we are with. It's called Hybrid. And as we said we talked about, it is it is, um it's whether it is an edge already where the processing is. We also committed to providing integrated, optimized, secure, elastic and automate our solutions. Right. This is, I think, your question of are it's not just appealing to the one segment of the organization. I think there's going to be a I cannot just say I'm only giving you the devil ops solution, but it has to have a security built into. This is why we are actually committed to making our solutions more elastic, more scalable. We're investing in building a complete runtime stack and making sure it has the all the fleet compose. It's not only optimized for the work solution which we call the work runtime stack, it's also has this is our Green Lake solution that that brings these two pieces together. Robert? Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. >>Robert, you mentioned automation earlier. This is where the automation dream comes in. The Mission ml ops service. What you're really getting at is program ability for the developer across the board, right? Is that kind of what you're thinking? Or? >>Well, there's two parts of that. This is really important. The developer community is looking for a set of tools that they could be very creative and movement right. They don't want to have to be worried about provisioning managing, maintaining any kind of infrastructure. And so there's this bridge between that automation and the actual getting things done. So that's number one. But more importantly, I think this is hugely important, as you look about pushing into the on premises world for for H, P E or anybody else to succeed in that space, you have to have a high degree of automation that takes care of potential problems that humans would otherwise have to get involved with. And that's when they cost. So you have to drive in a commercial. I'm gonna fleet controls of Fleet management services that automate their behavior and give them an S L A that are custom to public cloud. So you've got two sets of automation that you really have to be dealing with. Not only are you talking about Dev ops, the second stage you just talked about, but you gotta have a corresponding automation bake back into drive. A higher user experience at both levels >>and Esmeraldas platforms is cool. I get that. I hear that. So the question next question on that Kumar is platforms have to enable value. What are you guys enabling for the value when you talk to customers? Because who everyone sees the platform play as the as the architecture, but it has to create disruptive, enabling value. What do you >>Yeah, that I'll go on as a starter, I think way pointed out to you. This is the when we announced the container platform, it's off, the very unique. It's not only it's open source Cuban it is. It has a persistent one of the best underlying persistent stories integrated the original map or a file system, as I pointed out, drones one of the world's largest databases, and we can actually allow the customers to run both both state full and stateless workloads. And as I said a few minutes ago, we are committed to having the run times off they run and both which we are. We're not a hardware, so the customers have the choice on. In addition to all of that, I think we're in a very unique solutions. We're offering is ML ops as we talked about and this is only beginning, and we have lots of other examples of Robert is working on a solution. Hopefully, we'll announce sometime soon, which is similar to that. Some of the key elements that we're seeing in the marketplace, the various solutions that goes from the top of the bar >>Robert to you on the same question. What's in it for me in the customer? Bottom line. What's the what's in it for me? >>Well, so I think, just the ease of simplicity. What we are ultimately want to provide for a client is one opportunity to solve a bunch of problems that otherwise have to stitch together myself. It's really about value and speed to value. If I have to solve the same computer vision problem in manufacturing facility and I need a solution and I don't have the resource of the wherewithal stacks like that, but I got to bring a bigger solution. I want a company that knows how to deliver a computer vision solution there or within an airport or wherever, where I don't need to build out sophisticated infrastructure or people are technologies necessary, is point on my own or have some third party product that doesn't have a vested interest in the whole stack. H P E is purposely have focused on delivering that experience with one organization from both hardware and software up to the stack, including the applications that we believe with the highest value to the client We want to be. That organization will be an organization on premises. >>I think that's great, consistent with what we're hearing if you can help take the heavy lifting away and have them focus on their business and the creativity. And I think the application renaissance and transformation is going to be a big focus both on the infrastructure side but also just straight up application developers. That's gonna be really critical path for a lot of these companies to come out of this. So congratulations on that love that love the formula final conclusion question for both you guys. This is something that a lot of people might be asking at HP. Discover virtual experience, or in general, as they have to plan and get back to work and reset, reinvent and grow their organizations. Where is HP heading? How do you see HP heading? How would you answer that question? If the customers like Kumar Robert, where's HP heading? How would you answer that? >>Go ahead, Robert. And then I can >>Yeah, yeah. Uh huh, Uh huh. I see us heading into the true distributed hybrid platform play where that they would look to HP of handling and providing all of their resource is and solutions needs as they relate to technology further and further into what their specific edge locations would look like. So edge is different for everybody. And what HP is providing is a holistic view of compute and our storage and our solutions all the way up through whether they be very close to the edge. Locations are all the way through the data center and including the integration with our public cloud partners out there. So I see HP is actually solving real value business problems in a way that's turnkey and define it for our clients. Really value >>John. I think I'll start with the word Antonio shared. We are edge to the cloud, everything as a service company and I think the we're actually sending is HPE is Valley Legend, and it's actually honored to be part of the such a great company. I think what we have to change with the market transformation the customer needs and what we're doing is we're probably in the customers that innovative solution that you don't have to. You don't have to take your data where the computers, as opposed to you, can take the compute where the data is and we provide you the simplified, automated, secure solutions no matter where you very rare execution needs are. And that is through the significant innovation of the software, both for as Model and the Green Lake. >>That's awesome. And, you know, for all of us, have been through multiple ways of innovation. We've seen this movie before. It's essentially distributive computing, re imagine and re architected with capability is the new scale. I mean, it's almost back to the old days of network operating systems and networking and Os is and it's a you know, >>I that's a very, very good point. And I will come through the following way, right? I mean, it is, It's Ah, two plus two is four no matter what university, Gordo. But you have to change with the market forces. I think the market is what is happening in the marketplace. As you pointed out, there was a shadow I t There's a devil Ops and his idea off the network ops and six years. So now I think we see that all coming together I call this kubernetes is the best equalizer of the past platform. The reason why it became popular is because it's provided that abstraction layer on. I think what we're trying to do is okay, if that is where the customers want and we provide a solution that helps you to build that very quickly without having to lock into any specific platform. >>I think you've got a good strategy there. I would agree with you. I would call that I call it the old TCP I p. What that did networking back in the day. Kubernetes is a unifying, disruptive enabler, and I think it enables things like a runtime stack. Things that you're mentioning. These are the new realities. I think Covad 19 has exposed this new architectures of the world. >>Yeah, one last year, we were saying >>once, if not having something in place >>started. So the last thing I would say is it we're not bolting coolness to anything. Old technologies. It's a fresh it's built in. It's an open source. And it is as a salaries, it can run on any platform that you choose to run. Now. >>Well, next time we get together, we'll refund, observe ability and security and all that good stuff, because that's what's coming next. All the basic in guys. Thank you so much, Kumar. Robert. Thanks for spending the time. Really appreciate it here for the HP Discover Virtual Spirits Cube conversation. Thanks for Thanks for joining me today. >>Thank you very much. >>I'm John Furrier with Silicon Angle. The Cube. We're here in our remote studios getting all the top conversations for HP Discover virtual experience. Thanks for watching. Yeah, >>yeah, yeah.

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. >>This is a cube conversation. I'm stew Minuteman, and this is the Cube's virtual coverage of AWS Summit online. Happy to welcome back to the program to help give us some insight into what's happening. Aws last week. And today, that is Cory Quinn is the cloud economist at the Duck Bill Group. Cory, I know it's >>thank you. Always a >>pleasure to see you >>now it is always a pleasure to see me. Thank you for once again exhibiting remarkably poor judgment and inviting me back onto your program. >>Yeah, you know, Korea, you've been on the program a few times now, including in some of the AWS goes Ah, 18 San Francisco AWS, New York City. You know, reinvent we see you. But this is the first time we've had you on online. So give us a little bit about you know what? That impact of the global pandemic has been meaning to you and more importantly, what you've been seeing from our dear friends at AWS. >>Sure, the fact that not traveling anymore and spending almost all of my time at home means that I'm a lot closer to the edge when it comes to the content I put out because I no longer have to worry about someone punching me in the face. But other than that, from a business perspective, things tend to be continuing on much as they have before with four different customer concerns. The more interesting question from my side has been what is the effect this is having on people Because we're working from home remotely? It's not really a fair test of how well you can do remote. I've been doing it like this for years, and there's a There's a sense of existential dread that's hanging over people's at more so than usual, more so than right before the AWS re invent. You know, when you're wondering if you're about to have your entire business put out of business by an AWS. Now, it's just that sort of dread that never goes away because they won't deliver the keynote If you'll pardon me if using a metal >>Yeah, it's been really interesting to watch, you know, for you, of course. I mean, Amazon is, you know, a big player in the industry before this Amazon one that gets talked about a lot in the news. You know Amazon overall, You know, when this first pitch they announced they were hiring 1000 then they went through that faster than anyone could believe. You know, you think about having to hire a driver remotely. You know, my joke was you know, Alexa the screen. Everybody and I are everyone. But then they hired another 75,000. And it's not just the warehouse and the whole food people, because I've seen a number of people that I know getting hired by AWS do. So you know, you talk. It's all about the people that you know, the number one in the endemic people. How's Amazon doing? What feedback are you getting for? How they're doing? >>Well, I don't have too many internal sources that confirm or deny things of strategic import because it turns out that I'm generally not for those things. Who knew something I'm picking up on across the industry has been that if you're building a hyper scale cloud provider, you're not looking to next border. The investments you make today are going to be realized 3 to 5 years No one is currently predicting a dramatic economic impact community felt for a decade, based on the current question. So, yeah, AWS is still investing in people, which is always going to be the limiting constraint there still launching regions we have to launch within a month, and we're still seeing a definite acceleration of anything of the pace of innovation as a W was like. Now my perspective, that's both reassuring that some things never change. And, of course, the usual level of depression where oh, good, there's still more services to learn what they do. Learn how the names work, find ways to poke holes in their various presentational aspects. And, of course, try and keep the content relatively fresh. There's only so many times you could make the same joke for people. >>Yeah, absolutely. And of course, you bring up a really good point. You know, Amazon that they have a long strategic plan there. If they're building new data centers, they're building the power in perfect for these things. It's not something that they're going to change on a dime. They plan these things out far in advance, and AWS does, of course, have a global scope. Um, you know, I really, you know, wonder. You know, from an operational standpoint, are there any pressures on them? You wrote an article you know, relatively recently talking about one of the other public cloud providers that is by our customers. And we even have performance issues. AWS seems to be running through this dealing with acid. You know, I've had phone systems that have problems. You know, everybody as when they're working from home engine internally. Even if you've got a gig bandwidth When the fire neighborhood has Children on, you know, the classrooms online for video. There's pressures there. So you know where your teams from what I've seen, you know, AWS operationally is running well and, you know, keeping things all up and running Is am I missing anything? >>No. I mean the database is fond of saying there's no compression algorithm for experience, as I'm fond of saying, that's why they charge per gigabyte. But what that means is that they've gone through a lot of these growing pains and largest instructional stories in 2010 to 2012 EBS outages, causing a cascading failures as everyone saturates links as they roll from region to region or availability zone availability zone. They understand what those workloads look like and what those years are, and they've put in credible amount of engineering into solving these problems. I think that anyone who looks at this and doesn't see this happening is unfortunate place because we don't have to its approach utility level of reliability. You don't wonder every time you turn the faucet on whether water is going to, and we're now at a point of seeing that with AWS Resource. Now they're still going to be recurring issues. And there have been basically since this thing watched a particular instance. Size and family in a particular availability zone of a particular region may be constrained for a period of weeks, and that is something that we've seen across the board. But that has less to do with the fact that they didn't see this stuff coming in that appropriately and more to do with the fact that there's a lot of different options and customer demand is never going to be an exact thing we are seeing some customers dramatically turn off city and others sporadically scrapping capacity up. It comes down to what is the nature of this endemic on >>there. Yeah, well, this absolutely does. But you know, some of those promises of the cloud test I should be able to spin things down some things I should be able to turn off. And if I have to know shut down by business, I should be able to do that. Um, I'm curious what you've heard on changing demand out there. Worry. Um, you know, on the one hand, you know customers there re buying, they're getting reserved. They're making for that. They can, you know, optimize every dollar. But when something like this comes up and they need a major change, you know, are they stuck with a lot of capacity that they didn't necessarily want? >>Sometimes it comes down to a lot of interesting variables For me, the more interesting expression of this is when companies see demand falling off a cliff. As users, we're no longer using what their what they built out. But their infrastructure spend doesn't change. That tells me that it's not a particularly elastic infrastructure. And in fact, when people are building the elasticity into their applications, they always interpret that is scaling up rather than scaling down because the failure mode of not scaling up fast enough is you're dropping customer requests on the floor. The failure mode of not scaling down fast enough just means you're spending money. So when you see user demand for environment cut by 80% but the infrastructure cost remains constant or the infrastructure usage defending. That's a more interesting problem. And you're not gonna have a lot of success asking any cloud provider for adjustment when? Well, okay, you're suddenly not seeing the demand, but you're still remains the same. What is this based upon? You need to actually demonstrate a shortfall. First of wow, you know, we normally spend a $1,000,000 a month. Well, now we're spending 200 grand a month. Yeah, about that. And once you could do that, there are paths forward. I have not yet heard stories about, frankly, any of the big Three cloud providers, absolutely hanging customers out to dry in the cloud I have heard whispers about, for example, with G suite, where they're not willing to. And this this feels like a very dark way to go. But I'm going for it. Where will we just laid off 1/3 of our staff and we get a break on the annual licensing for those seats on G suite. And the answer is no. That feels like it stings and is more than a little capricious. >>Yeah, No, absolutely. You know, one of the things that the underbelly of fast is, you know? Oh, it should be elastic like cloud. But often times you're locked one or your contract, and if all of a sudden you find yourself with that meeting half the demand and you call them up, you know, Are they going to give you that break? So you know, Price and Corey, you know better >>than most. So all right, let me spoil it for you. Every provider is going to give you a break on this because this is a temporary aberration. As far as the way the world works, we're not going to start seeing Global 10 X every year, I hope. And when this crisis passes, people are going to remember how their vendors treated. And if it's well, we held your feet to the fire and made you live up to that contract that sticks with me, and it doesn't take too many stories like that, or people pulling lawsuits out of Acer to demonstrate that a company beat the crap out of them to say, Huh? Maybe that's not where I want to thank my sizeable cloud. Invest. >>Yeah. So, Corey, how about you know, there are there certain areas where I heard, you know, certain that maybe were slow rolling cloud and all of a sudden realize that when they're working from home, they plug and adjust their servers that are saying, Oh, jeez, maybe I need to hop on this. Then there's other services. You think VPN usage must be through the roof workspaces. So when first announced, you know, many years ago was a bit of a slow roll had been a growth ah, area for Amazon for the last couple of years. Are you hearing anything specific to new services or increase growth in certain services like I'm in? >>There are two patterns we're seeing. Of all. One is the traditional company you just described, where they build out a VPN that assumes some people will occasionally be working from home at a 5% rate versus the entire workforce 40 hours a week that that model that model is training every. Whereas if you go back the last 10 years or so and look at a bunch of small businesses that have started up or startups that have launched where everything they're using is a SAS service or a cloud service, then there is no VPN. I don't have a VPN. For example, the fact that I have a wireless network here in my house and I'm at dislocation. There's this I p address isn't white listed anywhere. The only benefit that this network has over others is that there's a printer plugged in here, and that's it. The identity model of Ioffe indicate to these services by the credentials of a user name and password by enchanting something, and they send an email that I click the link that that winds up handling the Asian night and there is no bottleneck in the same direction. I feel like this is going to be the death now for a lot of VM centric for tonight. >>Alright, Corey, want one of the other things about aws is they don't stop. And what I mean is, you know, you talked about them always being online. But you know every week there's a new announcement. It keeps feeding your newsletter, feeding your feet. You know everything going on there. How is number one? You know the announcement? Brains from AWS going and anything specific. You know, John Furrier was, you know, interest in, you know, Amazon Apolo, something that was released relatively recently. >>The problem with a lot of these new services that get released relatively recently is that it requires time to vet out how it works, how it doesn't work, how it should have wound up being implemented to solve your particular use case or, in my case, how they could have named it better. But you're not able to come up with those things off the top of your head the first time you see it because it's irresponsible at scale to deploy anything in production. You don't understand. It's failure cases right now, with everyone scrambling, most companies are not making significant investments in new capabilities. They are desperately trying to get their workforces online and stay afloat and adjust very rapidly changing. And oh, they built a new data store or something of that. Nature is not going to be this sort of thing that gets people super excited in most shops, that time will change. But I do feel a bit of it right now for a lot of these product teams who've been working away on these things for months or years. And now suddenly they're releasing something into a time when people don't I care about it enough to invest the effort that, yeah, you bring up a really good >>point. Corey, you know, there's certain things. If I was working on a project that was going to help me be more agile and be more flexible, I needed that yesterday. But I still need that today. Um, some other projects, you know, might take years to roll out a eyes. Technology that has been growing bring over the last couple of years were I O T solutions are a little bit more nascent. So is what you're thinking. It's a little bit more Stick to your knitting and the solutions and the products that you're leveraging today. And some of the, you know, more visionary and futuristic ones might be a little bit of a pause button for the next couple months. >>Exactly if you're looking at exploring something that isn't going to pay dividends for 18 months. Right now, the biggest question everyone has is what is the long term repercussion of this going to be? What is the year? What we're gonna look like in three years? Because that's where a lot of these planning horizons are stretching to. And the answer is, Look, when I wind up doing a pre recorded video or podcast where I talk about this stuff and it's not going to release for four days, I'm worried about saying something that was going to be eclipsed by the new site. I worry on my podcast reporting, for example, that I'm going to wind up saying something about that dynamic, and by the time it airs in two months, it's Oh, look at this guy. He's talking about the pandemic. He doesn't even mention the meteor, and that's the place right now where people are operating from, it becomes much more challenging to be able to adequately and intelligently address the long term. When you don't know what it's going to look like, >>Yeah, absolutely. For our viewers, when you hear my segment on Cory's ask and you wonder why we could talk about that it's because we missed that one week window that we're in right now When we're talking about murder Hornet, Not when we recorded it. Not when we released the really good point court. You know, Corey, you know, data is one of the most important things. You've done a lot about data portability, you know, all the costs involved. Cloud Amazon's trying to help people, you know, with, you know, bringing data together. You know, I said in one of the interviews with Andy Jassy a couple years ago, while customers were really the flywheel for AWS for a number of years, I think it is data that is that next flywheel. So I'm curious your thoughts as our, you know, enterprises think about their data, and AWS is role >>there incorrectly. If you want me to be blunt, there's an awful lot of movement, especially as we look at AI and machine learning to gather all of the data. I've been on cost optimization projects where Wow, that's an awful lot of data sitting there. And that s three bucket. Do you need it all? And I'm assured that yes, all of the sales transaction logs from 2012 are absolutely going to be a treasure trove of data just as soon as they figure out what to do with it, and they're spending our piles of money on >>it. But >>it's worse than that because it's not just that you have this data that's costing you money. That's almost a by product. There's risk to an awful lot of forms of data with regulation that continues to expand. Data can become a toxic asset in many respects. But there's this belief of never throw anything away that's not really ideal. Part of the value of a same data management strategy is making sure that you can remove all of the stuff that you don't absolutely need right now, with AI and ML being where they are, there's this movement or keep everything because we don't know what that's going to be useful for. Down the road, it's a double edged sword, and enterprises are at this point not looking at this through a lens of this thing could hurt me so much as they are. This thing could possibly benefit that the business in the future. >>Alright, so Cory, I I've really noticed over the last few months you've spent a bit more. I'm talking publicly about some of the other clouds that aren't AWS, though. You know what we are covering? AWS Summit online. Give us what you're hearing from Microsoft, Google and others. You know any strategies that Aaron you any you know, customer movement? That is worth >>sure. I think that we're seeing customers move in the way that they've always been moving. People made a bit of a kerfuffle about a block post I put out with the extremely Clickbait idle of Zoom chose Oracle Cloud over AWS. Maybe you should, too, and there were a few. There are few conclusions people drew understandably from that particular headline, which was, for example, the idea that AWS have lost a workload that was being moved from AWS to Oracle. Not true. It was net new. They do already has existing relationships with both Azure and AWS by their own admission. But the argument what what I took that particular change to be in my case was an illustration of something that's been bugging me for a while. If you look at AWS data transfer pricing publicly posted stop, which again, no one of this scale is going to pay. It is over 10 times more expensive than Oracle. Wow. And what that tells me is that I'm now sitting here in a position where I can make you made a good faith recommendation to choose Oracle's for cost reasons, which sounds nuts. But that's the world in which we live. It's a storytelling problem, far more than it is a technical shortcoming. But that was interpreted to mean that Oracle's on the rise. AWS is in decline. Zoom is a very strong AWS customer and has made public commitments. They will remain so right now. This is what we're seeing across the board. You see Zoom doing super well. They're not building out a whole lot of net new, either. What they're doing is building is just it's desperately trying to stay up under brushing unprecedented demand. That's where the value is coming from right now, clouds elasticity and they're not doing. You know, we're going to go ahead and figure out if we can build a new continuous deploy process or something that it makes on call a little bit less brutal. That's not what anyone's focusing on it here. Wow, this boat is sinking. If we don't stay up, grab a bucket, start bailing. And that is what they're doing. The fact that they're working with every cloud provider, it shouldn't come as a surprise. >>Yeah, well, it's interesting. I'm thinking about Zoom, and one of the things that I've been watching them for the last couple of everybody has is, you know, the daily updates that are happening Related security. Um, you know, I think back, you know, 67 years ago, Amazon had This is our security model. We're not changing it for anyone now. You know Amazon as a much more flexible and nuanced. So there are >>still in violent principles that Amazon will not and cannot shift. So, to be clear, they have different ways of interfacing with security in different ways of handling data classification. But there are rules that you knew are not changing. It's not well surprised. Now, suddenly, every Amazonian who works there can look through your private data that none of that is >>happening. I >>just want to very clear on >>that. Yeah, No, you're absolutely right. It's more security, you know, getting more engine even than ever. And it was already coming into 2020 before everything changed. What was one of the hot topic? Great. You know, I'm curious. You know, we're looking at a virtual event for AWS. Have you been to some of these? You know, you're getting burnt out from all of the online content. I'm sure everybody's getting tired of you. So are you getting tired of everyone else? >>I don't accept that anyone ever get tired of me. I'm a treasure and of the light. But as far as online events go, I think that people are getting an awful lot profoundly wrong about that. For example, I think that people focus on, well, I need to get the best video and the best microphone, and that's the thing that people are going to focus on, rather than maybe I should come up with something that someone wants to listen. People are also assuming that the same type of delivery and content works super well in a stage for 45 minutes is not going to work when people can tab over to something else and stop paying attention. You've got to be more dynamic. You've got to be able to grab people's, and I think that people are missing the forest for the trees. Here, you're just trying to convert existing format into something that will work online in the immediate short term. Everyone is super sympathetic. It's not going to last. People are going to get very tired of the same tired formatting ropes, and there's only so much content people are going to consume. You've got to stand out and you've got to make it compelling and interesting. I've been spending a lot of time trying to find ways to make that >>work. Yeah, I had a great conversation with John Troyer, he said. You know, we can learn something about what? Some of the late those Ah, you know, I think there's a new opportunity for you to say There's a house band, you know. You have a small child at home, divert Amerine there's your house band. You know you can have a lot of fun with >>Oh, absolutely, especially during a tantrum that's going to go super. Well, I'm just gonna watch one of her meltdowns about some various innocuous topic, and then I'm going to wind up having toddler meltdown the Amazon s three remix, and I'm sure we could wind up tying it back to something that is hilarious in the world of cloud. But I'm trying to pull off a little bit longer before I start actively exploiting her for Internet points. I mean, I'm going to absolutely do it. I just wanted to get a little color. >>All right. Well, Corey, want to give you the final word on AWS? The online events happening, you know, give our audience that what they should be looking at when it comes to their AWS estate, >>cool as usual attention to what's coming out. It's always been to have a low level awareness of what's coming out on stage. I don't feel you need to jump in and adopt any of it immediately. Focus on the things that matter to your business. Just because something new and shiny has announced on stage does not need a fit for you doesn't mean it's not, but remain critical. I tend not to be one of the early adopters in production, things that have a potential to wind up housing challenges, and I'm not saying, Oh, stay on the exact old stuff from 2010 and nothing newer, but there is a bit of a happy medium. Don't think that just because they released something that a you need to try it or B, it's even for, you know, AWS service is for everyone but every AWS services for someone. >>Alright, Well, Cory Quinn, always a pleasure to catch up with you. Thanks so much for joining with you joining us. >>Thank you. It was over the suffering. The slings and arrows Appreciate >>it. All right. Thank you for watching everyone. Lots of coverage of the cube at the AWS Summit online. Check out the cube dot net for all the offering. And thank you for what? >>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>From the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cute conversation. >>Hi, I'm Stu middleman and welcome to a cube conversation. I'm coming to you from the cubes East coast studio offices and joining me is one of our cube alums from the earliest cube event that we ever did. He's also one of our guests hosts a long time friend of the program. Someone I've known for a long time. John Troyer, the chief reckoner at tech reckoning. John, so good to see you. Thanks so much for joining us. >>Hey Steve. Thanks for having me on dialing in here from sunny half moon Bay, California. >>All right, well John, you know, first of all it's been good to talk to you a bunch. You know, normally, uh, we would be seeing you at a number of the conferences of course, with today's global pandemic. Uh, it stopped us seeing in person, but I tell you a month ago you held the influencer marketing council and it was one of those weeks where it was just kind of everything's changing. The world is upside down. And it was just so nice to talk to, you know, so many of our peers in the community, the people that we've known for a long time and just, you know, commiserate a little bit at first and then, you know, all share as to how we're moving forward and what we're doing. So, you know, bring us up to speed as to, you know, what you're seeing out there in the community. >>Sure, sure. Well, let's do, I mean that's one of the ironies of, of the place we're at here, right? We are learning that connection is so important. We know it is, but we tend to lump it in together with conferences and with sales calls and seminars, webinars, and we're learning that this kind of connection, these relationships are what we as humans are built on. And also what business is built on businesses, built of relationships. So I work a lot with, uh, companies doing work with their practitioner, communities with advocacy, customer advocacy, partner, advocacy with influencers outside their ecosystem. These kinds of relationship based ways to get attention in ways to fill the, you know, the funnel and um, you know, they've really kind of been both pulled apart and, and, and put center stage on this current with our current pandemic. >>Yeah. It's interesting cause you think about like, you know, what was online before and there and a lot of communities you think about, you know, the forums there, the way you communicate, um, you know, lots of online things. Sure. Meetups are a huge part of what goes on and those big events that you get together. So is there anything you've seen that's drastically changed obviously from an event standpoint, you know, w we'll spend some time talking about virtual events, uh, and the like, but you know, influencer groups, uh, the, you know, kind of V experts and MVPs of the world. Uh, you know, has there been any immediate impact on those groups? >>Well, sure. I mean they're all, a lot of times there are, like you said, there is a component of offline as well as online to these programs. I mean going back to the vendor side, the org charts are, are always confused in the first place. Does this belong in digital? Does this belong somewhere else? But the best programs always have face to face meetings. And of course those are off the table now. So that, that really of levels the playing field in a certain way, you still have people at home, the people who are working are working harder than ever. A lot of layoffs in the industry. So those people are kind of, uh, either, you know, trying to cope. Some of them are, have time for more creative outlets. So we're seeing a resurgence in people making content and discussions in online forums and online discussion. So that's really interesting. A lot of >>John John sourdough bread, you forgot the sourdough bread. >>Bacon, sourdough bread. I made some this morning. It was pretty good. You know, the nice thing is it levels the playing field, right? Whether you're in Croatia or Cleveland or, or you know, the middle of Silicon Valley, you can start to attend these things. I mean, I know some folks who were saying, you know, I was hampered by attending meetups because I, you know, I have a family or a childcare, I job duties and now they're able to attend virtually. So even if they, even if it's in a different city. So in some ways this is a great leveler. This, this allows us everyone to participate to the level of their interest and their energy, you know, but there are downsides. >>Yeah, no, absolutely. One of the questions, they were always the people like, Oh, I'm feeling left out because I'm not at that event. Well, you know, absolutely. You mentioned, you know, the home strains are there, you know, if you had a family situation that might've kept you from traveling, well, chances are you probably have some family things that might not free you up to be able to spend, you know, multiple hours doing things. But it shifts it and it does level the playing field. So, right. You know, whether I'm sitting in Bangalore, India, you know, somewhere in Croatia or you know, in Silicon Valley, uh, they're all sitting at home right now. And you know, all looking through their webcams and talking through the internet. So um, sounds like right, they're there. Um, I'm curious if you think there will be lessons learned and it is early days of course, but one of the questions we say is, you know, what will we have the takeaway from there and what will be permanent? Um, when we talk about say communities and how we engage with them. >>Well the whole kind of community developer relations space is, is always a little bit, uh, it's a little bit aside from revenue producing, right? So it's not quite straight marketing, it's not really revenue producing. So there's always a tension there in the, in the tech community, the folks that are connected to their business, the folks that are, have developed relationships and have that already created asset of these, of these existing relationships are doing well, especially if they're connected back to their business. Cause this is a time to make those connections to retrench. My family is talking a lot more and your ecosystem, your tech families should be talking a lot more of your customers and partners. So those folks are doing well. We've also seen a lot of layoffs because these are seen in some companies as not essential or as non. Yeah, just nonproductive. And if I got cut something, you know, the community team goes, if it's not strategically connected to uh, you know, back to back to the business. So I think one of the lessons is those relationships in a time like this are, are strategically important. And I mean, we can drill down on that, but I think that's going to be one of the takeaways that the companies that have built these networks and built their strong ecosystems are going to come out. The winners here, I >>mean, John, you brought up a big point here as we speak right now. I think the number in the U S is over the last five weeks, it's about 30 million people that are out of a job. Those are staggering numbers. I mean, it had been decades, you know, there was never a million of new unemployed here in 30 million. Just, you know, does boggle the mind. Um, then you have companies like Amazon that if I hired 170,000 people, and it's not just the manufacturing, uh, you know, in the, uh, and the distribution of things. I've seen people get hired by AWS, uh, during these times, but it is, uh, you know, it feels that there's a little bit of thawing on some of the movement of some people that had jobs frozen a month ago now seem that they are now moving through the system again there. But absolutely the financial ripples of what's happening here are something that is going to be with us for many quarters going forward. >>Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the other lessons that we'll learn is the nature of events, right? We have a, we were in event overload. The cube is a witness to that. You're on the road many, many weeks a year. In fact, you have to, you have to clone yourself. You're, you're, there's so many. You have multiple teams out on the road during, during conference season, and a lot of people were saying, there's too much. I can't get this. There's just too many events. I can't go to the mall, I can't even pay attention to them. Well now we're trying to take all those events and school in, squirt them through the tiny pinhole of a digital experience and a Twitter and Facebook and video like this. You had a multichannel, very rich interactive experience. You could get somebody to commit and get away from their, uh, their house for a few days and pay attention. We're beginning, I think to rethink what this, how this marketing playbook works, right? The people event is from is, has many different roles. >>Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Donna. I had been asking for a few years to dial down some of my travel. I didn't ask for it to go to zero. Um, so be careful what you wish for out there, but you know, good. You know, I'm glad you brought up the, you know, virtual events, digital events, whatever you want to call them. Um, we know as an industry that there is work to be done to make them better. Uh, you were just an interruption or a mouse. Click away from being pulled away, um, from this online environment. And everyone is learning as we go. We've been spending a lot of time working with companies, trying to learn lessons, trying to, you know, ask the questions about what is critically important and you know, engagement. That's tough. You know, we know community John is something that isn't that you just stand it up. It is constant care and feeding and when events going on community's a piece of that thing. Um, and you know, how do we maintain that in a virtual world? So anything you've seen that you like or things that you'd like to see more when it comes to, you know, how do we make things engaging and how do you make people feel welcomed and part of it rather than just I'm watching something on the web and streaming content at me. >>I think there's a few things. One is we're blowing the digital experience apart right there. There are multiple jobs to be done. There are multiple audiences. I went to a big conference today. I'm not a practitioner for this particular tech company. I'm not interested in all the breakouts. I am interested in the keynotes and I would be interested in some networking. So a large part of kind of community development relationship, all these, this relationship building happens during and after their dinners and receptions and things like that. So you can replace that and it doesn't have to be, you know, right after the big keynote. So we're, we're breaking these things apart. I see people, I've talked to different vendors, breaking big events into a series of smaller events, breaking it into audiences and executive series of events or practitioner series of events. And then I think frankly, the produced thing, the produce component of the show, uh, can, can use an upgrade to, I mean, I, I'm looking at the way our TV talk shows have adapted over the last month or two and they all started off with like a crappy web cam or, or an iPhone. >>And now that many of them are, have a very interesting format that have adapted to their hosts and their guests being both at home and separate. So you know that there's a, there's a psychological through comfort level and through line to having an anchor to having a host, things like that that maybe isn't necessary when you're there, your 5,000 people in an auditorium and clapping. It's just a different feeling. >>So John, are we calling to see, you know, which executive has a child that can help with some hand drawn, uh, slides and things that they can put up there? Uh, you never know. That'd be interesting. >>Many people have commented that they like the evening news now when the, when the kids and the wife and the dog and the, and the husband interrupt, right? It's, it's humanizing. And frankly that's my, that's my business. And that's what I help companies do is, is humanize themselves and, and, and the, you know, you can sprinkle a little bit in. I mean, we'll get tired of the kids hand drawn stuff, you know, if we're in, if we're at stay at home for too many more months. >>Yeah. You know, I kind of want our enterprise sales. Is that the message we want going through when we want you to do, you know, a subscription that will be millions of dollars a year, um, that there's a hand drawn thing. So a little bit of a gap between the enterprise, uh, and uh, you know what they might say, but you bring up a really good point, right John, that, that experience, uh, personalizing it absolutely is something that can be done. Uh, you know, one of the things we've been talking to all our of our clients about is you don't just take a physical event and lifted onto some website and think that, you know, you're going to have some success, that you need to think about that audience, focus on what they do. You know, we're always of course focusing on the cube is, you know, we want really good con, uh, content and you know, real conversations with people and, you know, you brought up, right, that that interaction that I get at shows. How much can I make people feel that I've talked to people. Um, you should be able to get more, you know, executive access. Uh, and if you're a customer, you know, I, I've heard some good things. It's like, Hey, you want to break out and talk to an se, you know, live on a chat. The platforms can enable that sort of thing. So you know, you to be able to talk, you want to be able to make it personal down to small groups or even individuals. Um, and there is the opportunity to do that. >>Yeah. A lot of times people talk about the hallway track. Yeah. You gotta realize the hallway track is not the same for everybody. If you have gone to the same conference for 10 years and you know a lot of the people and see familiar faces, the hallway track is great. You run into people, Oh, Hey, Oh, Hey, uh, and that's when the real work gets done. But if you are a newcomer to an ecosystem, if you are a new prospect coming in here, uh, even if I provided you the same virtual hallway track, it's, it's not gonna work for you. So again, we come back to the companies that have established these relationships, who have built these, uh, you know, have these onboarding experiences now are going to be the winners. If you just have a bunch of strangers, I mean, you might as well just do an hour webinar and see who you can spam, you know, get your, get your internal sales team to call everybody the next day. Right. >>Uh, I'm, I'm, I'm listening to you and I'm thinking of, you know, the blogger lounge at VM world where, you know, you and I go and we know lots of people, but we also meet lots of new people because they show up and everybody is like, Hey, you need to meet all of these other people. So you're right. There's ways to be able to take those influencers and those people to help concierge, help make connections, um, and do those things >>well. A real core with tips though, single track things work really well for those scale events because you can just drop in, you know exactly what's live multi-track, very much harder to figure out what's going on live. I know it's live. The other thing I've seen from a lot of, uh, tech community events is an accompanying Slack with prerecorded talks and with the speaker then in different Slack channels, the speakers there, you can chit chat while it's live. So if Slack or any kind of chat, uh, but Slack, you know, if you're already in this community Slack, that works really well. So this kind of dual multichannel live interaction I think can be one of the things that works right away. >>Yeah, absolutely. You know, little little plug that similar to what we'll have for dr Tom. So on the content tracks, uh, you know, most of them I believe will be, you know, recorded ahead of time. So those experts, you'll actually be able to ask questions, there'll be interacting in real time, uh, you know, whether you'd like it threaded or unthreaded. There's, there's options that we're choosing on that kind of stuff. All right. Uh, John, want to give you the final word? Uh, you know, obviously we're, we're kind of in the middle of things here. You know, it feels like we're in the new abnormal if it were, but you know, right here at the end of April, just about into may, some States are opening up. We don't know when we'll be able to go from 10 people to 25 to 50 or more people. So, you know, try trying to understand some of those pieces. What are you looking for going forward? Uh, any last tips you want to give the community? >>Well, I think, I think we're in, I think we're in kind of in here for a long haul. It's at least before we bring 80,000 a hundred thousand people together from all over the world. So you know, the old saw is, you know, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The best, the second best time is today. You, you, you figure out what your metrics are, they're not going to be the same as the old metrics. You figure out what your, your audiences are looking for, what's in it for them. Do they want training? Do they want networking? And you start to deliver it to them. And you, and you iterate. None of us look community people and, and, and developer relations people aren't experts at digital marketing event. People aren't experts at digital marketing. In fact, they, all, the digital marketing people aren't experts at digital marketing in this context. So we're all learning and, and you know, it's gonna there's going to be a lot of money spent and we'll figure it out eventually. You know, I think over the course of this year, >>yeah, absolutely. It's the learning mindset is what we all need. Uh, the, the things that have, you know, brought my spirits up the most, are the communities engaging, uh, whether it's working on the pandemic or just, you know, sharing what they've seen, what they'd like to do better. Uh, that collaboration has been, uh, something really good to see. Alright, John Troyer great to see you as always, uh, look forward to, uh, talking much more with you in the future. And, uh, thanks again. Thanks for having me. Students stay safe. Alright, I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks as always for joining us and watching the queue.

[Music] hi and welcome to this cube conversation in the cube Studios in Palo Alto California I'm your host Sonia - Gauri and today we're joined by two guests Justin Warren who is the chief analyst and managing director of pivot 9 and John Troy the chief reckoner of tech reckoning John and Justin welcome to the cube Thanks thanks for having us great so Justin you're in Melbourne Australia John your local to California let's start with Justin Justin you work at pivot 9 tell us a little bit about your role and what you do so I'm the founder and chief analyst steered pivot know and so everything is my fault we we like to help customers with positioning and messaging that's what most of them come to us for so we we maintain a pretty good research focus on the market focus on enterprise infrastructure cloud and information security and our clients come to us for help with positioning into those markets that's awesome and John you're the chief reckoner at Tech reckoning so tell us more about tech reckoning and what you do sure in in a way my keep reckoner is just might know I guess I am also the bottle washer and analyst as well we work with companies that help them with their ecosystem of technologists we work community and influence and advocacy and Deverell is the term of art that people like right now but basically we work we help communities communicate with their their their the ecosystems of which that's great and you're both a host of the cube so let's go down the line John tell us how did you get into hosting the cube and how has that experience been like I was here at cube number one we we started to realize that video streaming was available in a reasonable way at events and I believe we worked we worked with John and Dave and some of the few boats who were Bill around now to bring them to VMworld over ten years ago I was also doing it home at myself with him disappear that we bought it electronic door I'm very quickly looking very welcome to have them take over a functionality for a lot of people and Justin how about you how's your experience been yeah it's been great it's a again happy accident as things started off I happen to nice to I've known him for a few years and they he was in need of submersed hosting spots at a conference that I I happen to be at anyway and I foolishly said yes and now I've done it more than once oh it's is it gets a lot easier after you've done it two or three time are there any tips and tricks you would give okay thank you so much for being on the cube and we will see you next time [Music] you [Music]

>> Live from San Diego California, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. We're at the end of three days of wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego. I am Stu Miniman and my co-host for this week has been John Troyer, and we figured no better way to cap our coverage than bring on a CUBE alumni who has likely educated more people about containers and Kubernetes, you know, may be second only to the CNCF. So, Nigel Poulton now the head of content at msb.com. Nigel, pleasure to see you and thanks for coming back on the program. >> Honestly gents, the pleasure is all mine, as always. >> All right, so Nigel, first of all I'd love to get your just gestalt of the week. You know, take away, what's the energy. You know, how is was this community doing. >> Yeah, so it's the end of the week and my brain is a mixture of fried and about to explode, okay. Which i think is a good thing. That's what you want at the end of a conference, right. But I think if we can dial it back to the first day at that opening keynote, something that really grabbed me at the time and has been sort of a theme for me throughout the conference, is when they asked, can you raise your hand if this is your first KubeCon, and it's a room of 8,000 people, and I don't have the data at hand right, but I'm sat there, I've got my brother on this side, it's his first ever KubeCon, and he kind of goes like this, and then he realizes that nearly everybody around us has got their hands up, so he's kind of like, whoa yeah, I feel like I'm on the in the in-crowd now. And I think from the people that I've spoken to it seems to be that the community is maturing, the conference or the event itself is maturing, and that starts to bring in kind of a different crowd, and a new crowd. People that are not necessarily building Kubernetes or building projects in the Kubernetes ecosystem, but looking to bring it into their organizations to run their own applications. >> Yeah, no absolutely. You know, the rough number I heard was somewhere two-thirds to three-quarters of that room were new. >> Nigel: I can believe that. >> 12,000 here in attendance, right. There were 8,000 here last year. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> You think about the, you know, somebody, oh I sent somebody this year, I sent somebody different the next year, and all the new people. So, you know, Nigel, luckily that keeps you busy, because there is something I've said for a long, long, time is there is always a need for that introductory and then how do I get started and how do I get into here, and luckily the the ecosystem and all the projects and everything, somebody could pick that up in five or 10 minutes if they'd just put their mind to it, right. >> So I say this a lot of the time, that I feel like we live in the Golden Age of being able to take hold of your own career and learn a technology and make the best of what's available for you. Now we don't live in the day where we used, you know, to learn something new you would have to buy infrastructure. I mean even to learn Windows back in the day, or NetWare or Linux you'd need a couple of dusty old PCs in the corner of your office or your bedroom or something, and it was hard. Whereas now with cloud, with video training, with all the hands-on labs and stuff that are out there, with all of the sessions that you get at events like this, if you're interested in pushing your career forward, not only have you not got an excuse not to do it anymore, but the opportunities are just amazing, right. I feel like we live in such an, I feel like we're living in a exciting time for tech. >> Well Nigel, you do books, said you've done training courses, you have your platform of like a lab platform, msb.com. And one of the challenges in this space is that it is moving so fast, right. Yes, you have, anything's at your fingertips, but. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> Kubernetes changes every every quarter. Here at the show, both scale of people's deployments, but also scale of the probably number of projects, and everything has a different name. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> So, how are you, what should people be looking for? How are you changing your curriculum? What are you what are you adding to it, what are you replicating? >> Yeah, so that's super interesting. I think, right, as well, so it's a Golden Age for learning right, but if you're in the technology industry in the sort of areas that we are, right, if you don't love it and if you're not passionate about it, I almost feel like you're in the wrong industry, because you need that passion, and that sort of it's my hobby as well as my job, just to keep up. Like I feel like I spend an unhealthy amount of time in the Cloud Native ecosystem and just trying to keep track of everything that's going on. And all that time that I spend in, I still feel like I'm playing catch-up all the time. So I think you have to adjust your mentality. Like if you thought that you could learn something, a technology or whatever, and be comfortable for five years in your role, then you really need to adjust that. Like just an example, right. So I write, I offer a book as well, and I would love nothing better than to write that book, stick it on a shelf on Amazon and what-have-you and let it be valid for five years. I would love that because it's hard work, but I can't so like I do a six monthly update, but that applies to way more than that. So for your career, you know, if you want to, it sounds cheesy, if you want to rock it in your career, you have got to keep yourself up to date. And it's a race, but I do think that the kind of things were doing with tech now, they're fun things, right. >> Yeah, a little scary, because while we're at this show I hope you kept up with all the Amazon announcements, the Google announcements. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> And everything going, because it is it is non-stop. >> Nigel: It is. >> Out there. Nigel, we last had you on theCUBE two years ago at this show, and at every show for a bunch of shows it seemed like there was a project or a category du jour. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> I don't know that I quite got that this year. There were some really cool things at edge computing. There was the observability, something we spent a bunch of time talking on. But we'd love to just kind of throw it out there as to what you're seeing in the ecosystem, the landscape, some of the areas that are interesting. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> Important, and what's growing, what's not. >> Okay, so if I can take the event first off, right, so KubeCon itself. Loads of new people, okay, and when I talk to them I'm getting three answers from them. Like number one, they're like, some people like, I just love it, you know, which is great, and I've loved it and it's an amazing event. Other people are like kind of over awed by it, the size. So I don't know, maybe we should send them to re:Invent and then come back here and then they'll be like, oh yeah, it's not so bad. But the second thing is that some of the sessions are going over the first timers heads. So I'm hoping, and I'm sure it will, that going forward in Amsterdam and Boston next year that we'll start to be able to pitch parts of the conference to that new user base. So that was kind of a theme from speaking to people at the event from me. But a couple of things from the ecosystem, like we talked about service mesh, right, two years ago, and it felt like it was a bit of a buzzword, but everyone was talking about it and it was a real theme, and I don't get that at this conference, but what I do feel from the community in general is that uptake and adoption is actually starting to happen now, and thanks a lot to, well look, Linkerd pretty easy these days, STO is making great strides to being easier to deploy, but I also think that the cloud providers, those hosted cloud providers, really stepping up to the plate, like they did with hosted Kubernetes, you know when it was hard to get Kubernetes for your environment. We're seeing a similar thing with the service mesh. You can spin something up in GKE, Kubernetes cluster, click the box, and I'll have a service mesh, thank you very much. >> Well, it's funny. I think back to Austin, when I talk to the average customer in the show floor and said, "What are you doing?" they were rolling their own. Picking all of the pieces and doing it. When I talk to the average customer here, is, I'm using managed services. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> Seems to have matured a lot. Of course, some of the manage public cloud services were brand new or a couple months there. Is that's a general direction you see things going? >> So, yes, but I almost wonder if it will be like cloud in general, right, where there was a big move to the cloud. And I understand why people will want to do hosted Kubernetes and things, 'cause it's easy and you know it gets you. I'm careful that when I use the term production grade, because I know it means different things to different people, but you get something that we can at least loosely turn production grade. >> Yeah, and actually just to be clear, we had a lot of discussions about on-premises, so I guess it's more the managed service rather than the, I'm going to roll all the pieces myself. >> Yeah, but I wonder will we start, and because of price and maybe the ability to tweak the cluster towards your needs and things, whether we might see people taking their first steps on a managed service or a hosted Kubernetes, and then as they scale up then they start to say, well, tell you what we'll start rolling our own, because we're better at doing this now, and then run like, you know, you still have your hosted stuff, but you have some stuff on premises as well, and then we move towards something that's a bit more hybrid. I don't know, but I just wonder if that will become a trend. >> Well Nigel, I mean it's been a busy week. You started off with workshops. I don't know, what did you miss? What's the first, when you go home, back to England, are you going to, and you pop open your browser and start looking at all the session videos and stuff, I don't know, what didn't you get a chance to do here this week? >> So I was kind of, for me it's been the busiest KubeCon I've had and it's robbed me of a lot of sessions, right, and when I remember when I looked at the catalog at the beginning it was like, you know it's one of those conferences where almost every slot there's three things that I want to go to, which is a sign of a good conference. I'm quite interested at the moment in K3s. I actually haven't touched it for a long time, but outside of KubeCon I have had a lot of people talk to me about that, so I will go home and I will hunt down, right, what are the K3s sessions to try and get myself back up to speed, 'cause I know there are other projects that are similar right, but I find it quite fascinating in that it's one of those projects where it started out with like this goal of we'll be for the edge, right, or for IOT or something, and the community are like, we really like it, and actually I want to use it for loads of other things. You have no idea whether it will go on to be like a roaring success, but it. I don't know, so often you have it where a project isn't planned to be something. >> Announcer: Good afternoon attendees. Breakout sessions will begin in 10 minutes. >> But it naturally in the community. >> Announcer: Session locations are listed. >> Take it on and say. >> Announcer: On the noted schedule. >> We're going to do something with it. >> Announcer: On digital signage throughout the venue. >> That wasn't originally planned, yeah. So I'll be looking up K3s as my first thing when I go home, but it is the first thing on a long list, right. >> All right. Nigel, tell us a little bit about, you know, latest things you're doing, msb.com. I know you had your book signing for your book here, had huge lines here. >> Yeah. >> Great to see. So, tell us about what you're doing overall. >> Thank you, yeah. So, I've got a couple of books and I've got a bunch of video training courses out there, and I'm super fortunate that I've reached a lot of people, but a real common theme when I talk to people are like, look, I love your book, I love your video courses, whatever, how do I take that next step, and the answer was always, look, get your hands on as much as possible, okay. And I would send people to like Minikube and to play with Docker or play with Kubernetes and various other solutions, but none of them really seem to be like, a real something that looked and smelled and tasted like production. So I'm working with a start-up at the moment, msb.com, where we have curated learning content. Everybody gets their own fully functioning private free node Kubernetes cluster. Ingress will work, internet-facing load balancers will all work on it, and the idea is that instead of having like a single node development environment on your laptop, which is fine, but you know, you can't really play with scheduling and things like that, then msb.com takes that sort of learning journey to the next level because it's it's a real working cluster, plus we've got this amazing visual dashboard so that when you're deploying stuff and scaling and rolling updates you see it all happening in the browser. And for me as an educator, right, it's sometimes hard for people to connect the dots when you're reading a book or, and I spend hours on like PowerPoint animations and stuff, whereas now in this browser to augment like reading a book, and to augment taking a training video, you can go and get your hands on and have this amazing sort of rich visual experience that really helps you like, sort of, oh I get it now, yeah. >> All right, so Nigel, final question I have for you. I've known you back when we were just a couple of infrastructure guys. You've done phenomenal things. >> Nigel: The glory days. >> With kind of the wave of containers, you're a Docker captain. You know, really well known in the Kubernetes. When you reflect back on something, on kind of this journey we've been on, you look at 12,000 people here, you know Docker has some recent news here, so give us a reflection back on that this journey the whole industry's on. >> Yeah, so I had breakfast with a guy this morning who I wrote my first ever public blog with. He had a blog site and he loaned me some space on his blog site 'cause I didn't even know how to build a blog at the time, and it was a storage blog, yeah, we're talking about EMC and HDS and all that kind of stuff, and I'm having breakfast with him, 14 I think years later in San Diego at KubeCon. And I think, and I don't know if this really answers your question, but I feel like that Kubernetes is almost so, if ubiquitous is the right word or it's so pervasive, and it's so all-encompassing almost, that it is bringing almost the entire community. I don't want to get too carried away with saying this, right, but it is bringing people from all different areas to like a common platform for want of a better term, right. I mean we were infrastructure guys, yourself as well John, and here we are at an event that as a community and as a technology I think it's just, it's changing the world, but it's also bringing things almost under one hood. So I would say anybody, like whatever you're doing, do all roads lead to Kubernetes at the moment, I don't know. >> Yeah, well we know software can actually be a unifying factor. Best term I've heard is Kubernetes is looking to be that universal back plain. >> Nigel: Yeah. >> and therefore, both you know, southbound to the infrastructure, northbound to the application. Nigel Poulton congratulations on the progress. Definitely, everybody makes sure to check out his training online, and thank you for helping us to wrap up our three days of coverage here. For John Troyer, I am Stu Miniman. TheCUBE will be at KubeCon 2020 in both Amsterdam and Boston. we will be at lots of other shows. Be sure to check out thecube.net. Please reach out if you have any questions. We are looking for more people to help support our growing coverage in the cloud native space, so thank you so much for the community, thank you to all of our guests, thank you to the CNCF and our sponsors that make this coverage possible, and thank you to you our audience for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon brought to you by Redhat, a CloudNative computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, we are here in San Diego where we are keeping CloudNative classy. I'm Stu Miniman, and my cohost is John Troyer, and we are happy to welcome back to the program, our host, Dan Kohn, who is the executive director of the CloudNative computing foundation, or the CNCF. Dan, thank you so much for having us. >> Thrilled to be back again. >> All right, and, yeah, so our fourth year doing this show, the big shows-- >> Dan: Nothing's really changed. You just tear right along the same level. One year to the next, you can just confuse them pretty easily.. >> So, you know, Dan, we actually did a prediction show yesterday, and I said, maybe it's my math background, but I look back two years ago, it was four thousand, then eight thousand, now twelve thousand, so I predict Boston must be sixteen thousand because I was used to those standardized tests, but with the growth, you never know, and it is very difficult, you know, we talk about planning, we've talked, this facility was booked before-- >> Dan: Two years ago. >> --the curve really started taking off. So, help us set the stage a little bit, we're getting towards the end of the event, but you know, tons of day zero things, so many sessions, so many people, there were pre-show events I heard that started like the end of last week, so, it's a small city in this community in so many pieces, and the CNCF helps enable all of it. >> It does, and what's fun for us is just that, the community is out there adopting these technologies and contributing to it and growing, and being able to come together, this is always our biggest event in North America but also in Europe and China. It's just a really nice snapshot of the point of time, in saying, okay, where are things, how many companies are interested in having sponsor booths, how many developers are there, how many track, but, I think maybe my favorite anecdote from Kubecon CloudNativeCon San Diego is that there was a, so we offer, a CFP track, a call for proposals that's extremely competitive, only 12% of the talks get accepted. And then we have a maintainer track, where the different providers can have either an intro, a deep-dive, or both. So the deep dive for the project Helm, which is not even a graduated project yet, I mean, it's very widely used, package manager for Kubernetes, but the deep dive for Helm had more than 1600 people inside their session, which is more than we had at all of attending Kubecon 2015 and 2016 combined. >> So, Dan, one of the words that gets mentioned a lot in this space, and it has lots of different meanings, is "scale". You know, we talk about Kubernetes built for big scale, we're talking about Edge computing which goes to small scale. This event, you look at the ecosystem. There's a thirty foot banner with all of the logos there, you look at the landscape-- >> Dan: They're not that big, either. >> --there are so many logos on there. Actually, I really thought you had an enjoyable yet useful analogy in your opening keynote. You talk about Minecraft. I've got a boy, he plays Xbox, I've seen Minecraft, so when he pulls up the little chart and there's like, you know, all of these little things on the side, my son can tell you how they're used and what you can build with them, I would be completely daunted looking at that, much like many of the people coming to this show, and they look around and they're like, I don't even know where to start. >> And that was fun keynote for me to put together, because I did need to make sure, both on the Minecraft part, that all the formulas were correct, I didn't want anyone... But then I drew the analogy to Kubernetes and how it is based on a set of building blocks, hundreds of them, that have evolved over time, and for that, I actually did some software archeology of reaching out to the people who created the original IPFW, Linux firewall 20 years ago based on PSD and then the evolution since then, made sure that they were comfortable with my description of it. But now, bringing it out to Kubecon, CNCF, we have a lot of projects now, so we're up to 43. When we met in Seattle four years ago, it was 2. And so it's definitely incumbent on CNCF to do a good job, and we can probably do an even better one on trying to draw this trail map, this recommended path through understanding the technologies, deciding on which ones people might want to adopt. >> Yeah, I think that would be really interesting. In fact, the words trail map kind of came up on Twitter, today, I saw. And one of the things that struck me was how the first rule of Kubecon is, well, Kubernetes is not maybe in the center of everything, it's underneath everything, but, like you said, 42 projects in the CNCF, many more projects, open-source projects, of course, from different vendors, from different coalitions, that you can see here on the show floor as well, if not in a session, so, without giving a maybe a CNCF 101, what does the path forward look like in terms of that, the growth of projects within the CNCF umbrella, the prominence of Kubecon, are we headed towards CloudNativeCon? >> Well, we've always been calling it Kubecon CloudNativeCon, and we could reverse the names, but I don't see any particular drive to do that. But I would really emphasize, and give credit to Craig McLuckie and some of the other people who originally set up CNCF, where Google had this technology, if they'd come to the Linux Foundation and said, we want to call it the Kubernetes Foundation, we probably would've said yes to that. But the impact, then, would be that all of these other technologies and approaches would have come in and said, we need to become part of the Kubernetes project, and instead, there was a vision of an ecosystem, and the reality is that Kubernetes is still by far the largest project. I mean, if you look at the total number of contributors, I believe it's approximately the same between Kubernetes and our other 42 projects combined. So, and of course, there's overlap. But in that sense, in some ways, Kubernetes sort of represents the sun, and the other projects are orbiting around it, but from the beginning, the whole idea was to say that we wanted to allow a diversity of different approaches, and CNCF has had this very clear philosophy that we're not king makers, that if you look at our landscape document, where we look at different functions like key management or container run times or databases or others, there can be multiple CNCF hosted projects in each box. And so far at least, that approach seems to be working quite well. >> Yeah, Dan, having been to a number of these, the maturity and progress is obvious. Something we've said is Kubernetes is really table sticks at this point, no matter where I go, there is going to be Kubernetes, and therefore, I've seen it some over the last year or so, but very prominent on this show, we're talking about work loads, we're talking about applications, you know, it's defining and explaining that CloudNative piece of it, and the tough thing is, you know, modern applications and building applications and that AppDev community. So, you know, speak a little bit-- You've got a very diverse audience here, talk about the personas you have to communicate with, and who you're attracting to this. I know they put out lots of metrics as to the surveys and who's coming and who's participating. >> Well, we do, and we'll be publishing those, and I love the fact. I think some people misunderstand in the thinking that Kubecon CloudNativeCon is all infrastructure engineers, and something like a third or more of the attendees are application developers, and so I do think there's this natural move, particularly towards AppDev. The difference is that on the infrastructure side, there's just a really strong consensus about Kubernetes, as you're saying, where on the application development side, it's still very early days. And I mean, if anything, I think really the only area that there is consensus on is that the abstractions that Kubernetes provides are not the ones that we want to have regular application developers at most enterprises working with, that they shouldn't actually need to build their own container and then write the YAML in order to configure it. Brian Liles hit that point nicely with his keynote today around Rails. But so we can agree that what we have isn't the right outcome, we can agree that whatever are the winning solutions are very likely underneath going to be building those containers and writing the YAML. But there are so many different approaches right now, at a high layer on what that right interface is. >> Yeah, I mean, just, one example I have, I had the opportunity to interview Bloomberg for the second time. And a year ago, we had talked very much about the infrastructure, and this year we talked about really, they've built internally that PaaS layer, so that their AppDevs, they might know that there's Kubernetes, but they don't have to interface with that at all. I've had a number of the CNCF end user members participate, maybe, speak to that, the community of end users participating, and end user usage overall. >> Yeah, so when we first met in Seattle four years ago, we had three members of our end user community. We appreciated them joining early, but that was a tough call. But to be up to 124 now, representing almost every industry, all around the world, just a huge number of brand names, has been fantastic. What is interesting is, if you go talk to them, almost all of them are using Kubernetes as the underlying layer for their own internal PaaS, and so the regular developers in their organizations can often just want to type get push, and then have the continuous integration run and the things built and then deployed out and everything. But it's somewhat surprising there hasn't yet been a level of consensus on what that sort of common PaaS, the common set of abstractions on top should be. There's a ton of our members and developers and others are all working to sort of build that winning solution, but I don't have a prediction for you yet. >> And of course, skill interoperability and skill transferability is going to be key in growing this ecosystem, but I thought the stats on you know, the searches you can do on the number of job openings for Kubernetes is incredible. >> Yeah, so on the interoperability, we were very pleased to announce Tuesday that we've now passed 100 certified vendors, and of all the things that CNCF does, probably even including Kubecon, I might say that that certified Kubernetes program is the one that's had the biggest impact. To have implementations from over 100 different organizations that you can take the same workloads and move them across and have the confidence, those APIs will be supported, it's just a huge accomplishment, and in some ways, up there with WiFi or Bluetooth or some of the best interoperability standards. And then you mentioned the job support, which is another-- >> Yeah, I want to transfer engineers too, as well as workloads. >> --area that we're thrilled, and we just launched that, but we now have a couple hundred jobs listed on it and a bunch of people applying, and it's just a perfect example of the kind of ecosystem development that we're thrilled to do, and in particular the fact that we're not charging either the employers or the applicants, so it's jobs.CNCF.io to get access to that. >> Great. Dan, you also mentioned in your keynote, Kubernetes has crossed the chasm. That changes the challenges that you have when you start talking about you know, the early or mid majority environment, so I know you've been flying around the globe, there's not only the three big events, but many small events, talk about how CNCF6 mission helps you know, educate and push, I guess not push, but educate and further innovation. >> Yeah, and just enable. So, one of the other programs we have is the Kubernetes Certified service provider, these are organizations, essentially consulting firms, that have a deep expertise that have had at least three of their engineers pass our certified Kubernetes administrator exam, and it is amazing now that we've passed 100 of those, but they're in over 30 different countries. So we're just thrilled to see businesses all around the world be able to take advantage of that. And I do get to go to a lot of events around the world; we're actually, CNCF is hosting our first ever events in Seoul and in Sydney in two weeks, that I'm quite excited for, and then in February, we're going to be back in India, and we're going to be in Bengaluru, where we had a very successful event in March. We'll be there in February 2020 and then our first one in New Delhi, those are both in the third week of February. And I think it does just speak to the number of people who are really eager for these to soak this up, but one of the cool things about it is we're combining both local experts, half of our speakers are local, half are international, and then we do a beginner track and an advanced track. >> Yeah, Dan, you know, I'd just love a little bit of insight from you as to, there's a little bit of uncontrolled chaos when you talk about open source. Many of the things that we're talking about this year, a year ago, we would've been, oh my gosh, I would've never thought of that. So give us what it's like to be kind of at the eye of the hurricane, if you would. >> A lot of criticism, to be honest. An amazing number of people like to point out the things that we're not quite doing correctly. But you know, the huge challenge for an organization like CNCF, where, we're a non-profit, these events are actually spinning off money that we're then able to reinvest directly into the projects, so doing things like a quarter million dollars for a security audit for Kubernetes that we were able to publish. Or a Jepson testing for NCD, or improving documentation and such. So a big part of it is trying to create those positive feedback loops, and have that, and then another huge part is just, given all the different competing interests and the fact that we literally have every big technology company in the world on our board and then all of the, I mean, hundreds of start ups that tend to be very competitive, it's just really important that we treat organizations similarly. So that all of our platinum members are treated the same, all our gold, all our silver, and then within the projects, that all the graduated projects are treated similarly, incubating, sandbox, and people really notice. I have kids, and it's a little bit there, where they're sort of always believing that the other kid is getting extra attention. >> Yeah, right, you can't be the king maker, if it will, you're letting it out. Look out a little bit, Dan, and you know, we still have more growth to go in the community, obviously the event has room for growth. What do you see looking forward to 2020 and beyond? >> Yeah, I would love to predict some sort of amazing discontinuity where everyone adopts these technologies and then CNCF is not necessary anymore, something like that. But the reality is, I mean, I love that crossing the chasm metaphor, and I do think it's very powerful, and we really do say 2018 was the year that Kubernetes crossed the chasm from the early adopters to the early majority, but I would emphasize the fact that it's only the early majority. We haven't reached in to the entire second half of the curve, the late majority and the laggards. And so there are a ton of organizations here at the event who are just getting up to speed on this and realizing, oh, we really need to invest and start understanding it. And so, I mean, I don't, we also talk about there will be some point of peak Kubecon, just like peak Loyal, and I don't yet see any signs of it being 2019 or 2020, but it's something that we're very cognizant of and working hard to try and ensure that the event remains useful for people and that they're seeing value from it. I mean, there was a real question when we went from one thousand Seattle four years ago to four thousand in Austin three years ago, oh, is this event even still useful, can developers still interact, do you still have conversations, is the hallway track still valuable? And thankfully, I'm able to chat with a lot of the core developers, where this is their fifth North American Kubecon and they're saying, no, I'm still getting value out of it. Now, what we tend to hear from them is, "but I didn't get to go to any sessions," or "I have so many hallway tracks and private meetings and interactions and such," but the great thing there is that we actually get all of these sessions up on YouTube within 48 or 72 hours, and so, people ask me, "oh, there's 18 different tracks, how do I decide which one to go to?" And I always say, "go to the one where you want to interact with the speaker afterwards, or ask a question," because the other ones, you can watch later. But there isn't really a substitute for being here on the ground. >> Well, there's so much content there, Dan, I think if they start watching now, by the time you get to Amsterdam, they'll have dented a little bit. >> I'll give a quick pitch for my favorite Chrome extension, it's called Video Speed Player. And you can speed people up to 120, 125%, get a little bit of that time back. >> Yeah, absolutely, we have at the backend of ours, there is YouTube, so you can adjust the speed and it does help most of the time, and you can back up a few seconds if needed. Dan, look, congratulations, we know you have a tough role, you and the CNCF, we really appreciate the partnership. We love our community, it has had a phenomenal time this week at the show, and look forward to 2020 and beyond. >> I do as well, I really want to thank you for being with us through this whole way, and I think it is just an important part of the ecosystem. >> And I know John Furrier also says thank you and looks forward to seeing you next year. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Dan, thank you so much. John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, getting towards the end of our three days, wall-to-wall coverage here in sunny San Diego, California, thanks for watching theCUBE.

>>Ly from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cube live coverage three days wall to wall coverage of CubeCon cloud native con in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost for these three days is John Troyer. And welcome to the program. First of all, from the keynote stage, Heather Kirksey, who is the vice president of community and ecosystem development with the Linux foundation for CNCF part of Linux foundation and from some of the technology behind the scenes joining her, Sandy Pennys are the SVP of strategic engagement at attorney. Thank you so much for joining us. Right. So Heather, this was a really cool demo with a lot of things going beyond the scene. Uh, if people actually go watch an interview we did yesterday, uh, with, uh, the people at red hat talk about, uh, it's a good thing. It was cloud native because there was a brownout cower was lost, had to rebuild the entire thing. Um, and everybody up on stage, you know, the next day, didn't know anything the wiser. So, uh, you know, really cool pot on stage. Uh, you know, talking about 5g global engagement, China mobile, uh, other banks. I like, um, I'm sorry, other mobile providers, uh, like from Canada and from Europe involved in this. Um, give us a little bit of the, the, the foundation view as to, you know, how something like this comes together and how you get participation from, you know, the technology providers, the telco providers. Uh, you know, it takes, it takes a village. >>First of all, you have to be slightly mad. Um, but I mean that's, that's really kind of the premise of open source, right? Is that people come together and they build things together. And so we done some demos in the past, um, where we looked at sort of, you know, the, the modernization of the central office. And so we had had some, you know, some tea, you know, some tapes of folks that had been building things. And then we, you know, we sent out a call basically to the community and said, yeah, we'd like to do another one. And what we're going to try to do is full five G full called native, if you're interested in joining, yo come on. And so it just ended up that basically 15 organizations said, yes, that sounds like something that we would like to prove out. And 80 volunteers across those organizations ended up working on it. >>My understanding was about four months, uh, to, to put all the pieces together, bring us, bring us through kinda, you know, how the stack gets built and. >>Yeah, well I mean, so amongst some of the issues where you have five G itself is fairly new. So we, we started with sort of the complexities of getting equipment, you know, and getting five G radio. You know, we had a partner in China who had a 5g handset that then wanted us to indemnify, you know, all of these things. Uh, to the extent that like we as a nonprofit didn't feel comfortable signing the agreement. So it was, you know, it started actually just, I mean, this was so cutting edge with in terms of the five G aspect that getting equipment was challenging. Um, yeah. And that's before you even get to sort of the challenges of building the stack. So, um, so, you know, it started kind of figuring out what pieces started building things, um, you know, found some yo gaps in Coobernetti's around supporting the, the, the sophistication of networking that we have to do. Um, so we figured out how to work around it for the demo, but what we want to do is start upstreaming some, um, some changes into, into some of the projects there. >>All right, so San Deepa, your company's one of the providers inside here. So tell us what, what drew you into it and how it is living on that bleeding edge was something like five. >>Well, it's, it's absolutely thrilling living on that leading edge. It's exciting, you know, lots of risks. But the payoff yesterday was fantastic. Be able to complete that call on stage. You know, from our perspective, we were invited in fairly early on into the project. Uh, and we're, we're thrilled to be part of it. And as once we understood the scope and what everyone's trying to do, we realized like we're providing the, the SD wan for this project, connecting the public cloud, the private cloud, and we're deploying, uh, using containers, Kubernetes. And we are able to bring the entire thing together by creating one virtual network so that it's seamless and all the underlying infrastructure, that layer, layer two, layer one, the underlay is just completely invisible to be able to transport that call, to do the signaling, to do everything that needs to be done. >>So for us to become part of this project was really powerful for one, for us to just, uh, just work with some of the companies that were there, like the Linux foundation and tell the Nobel all the other big name players that were out there. And so that was, that was amazing. An amazing experience. But then the community itself that came together, like the people that we met, we met them all at the show. It's all phone calls, we met them all at the show and it really is a community filled with love and a real drive and desire, uh, to build something new and different. Right. Sprinkled with a bit of crazy. >>Yeah. >>Well, so I mean this is a, is a great example of how the Linux foundation can be a catalyst here. I mean one of the Linux foundation is so broad, the CNCF is so broad and you're operating in many domains in this being, you know, bringing the telecom world together, being one of them. But I don't know, can you maybe just talk a little bit about the ecosystem and the unique challenges of, I mean there are some times open source approaches that are a little more strongly opinionated. Like this is going to be our, this is, this is what we're working on. This is going to be our stack. This is the projects in our stack. CNCF has a obviously a, a well documented and open, uh, process around bringing projects in and projects graduating. How does that make your >>life harder? >> Yeah. Well, I mostly focus on our networking projects and working with the telecom industry. And yeah, I mean Telekom definitely likes to be opinionated, you know, I mean that's, that's kind of, and our soul. Um, and so that is also is useful because really at the end of the day, interoperability for the type of scale that telecom operators has is very important. Right? It's um, yeah, some of the cloud providers, right? It's up to the people who want to run on them to like work with their API APIs. But the, the telecom operators, they're using all these applications to provide services to their customers so they have a business need to make sure everything really works end to end. And so there's actually an initiative right now between, um, the LF networking projects and the GSM, uh, where we're really trying to, not to prescriptively, because we do also understand that that doesn't know, you're not going to get the exact same pieces of software that worked for every single operator's network or business, but with a lot more sort of UPenn opinion around, you know, what should the cloud platforms, whether they are VM based or container based, what do they look like and how can we start doing things like compliance and verification programs around commercial implementations, whether it is the underlying platform or whether it's the applications on top. >>And so that's the thing that, you know, we're, we're working on right now because at the end of the day, we're really needing to help them accelerate their, their deployments and, um, get that agility. That's the promise of. >>So, Heather, I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier that there were some gaps in Coobernetti's speak to how fast the community rallied around to, you know, allow this, uh, solution to go forward. >>Yeah. So, um, I'll, I mean basically this is what happens when you get a bunch of engineers together, you know, for the demo itself, we weren't going to fork or make our own sort of changes Kubernetes. So we, we did some things to, to tie things together. Probably you've seen SD when I see Rampart. But yeah, one of the, one of the big issues is just being able to expose multiple interfaces. Um, which, you know, in a service writer network you have multiple interfaces, right? Um, fi six support is another big issue. And so being able to expose those natively in Kubernetes or natively just using cloud native, it's something that we're still working on. Um, there, there are a couple of projects that are looking at that um, network service mesh. Uh, you know, maybe there's some different CNI who are beginning to think through that problem. Um, none of them were quite there. So yeah, we didn't want to start forking and writing pseudo Kubernetes code. Um, so we kinda just use some of the tools and the players in place to work around that. But we, what we would love is to upstream that code and to main line. Sure. >>Yeah. So Sandy would love to hear a little bit more about how SD wind fits in the entire multicloud discussion. Um, we were, we had a pop here in San Diego. There's a lab in Montreal and then there is a, a lab in France and we use public, uh, a combination of, uh, the Alibaba cloud in North America and in Europe. And what we had to do is we had to create a way for the phones to reach each other. So we had to do this initial signaling where you do the request and you have to get to all of the different pods to make the, to make the request. So what we did is we put our, um, containers and all the, in all the cloud providers and also in the labs and we were able to create that private network. And that was what allowed for the call signaling to happen. >>And for the actual call to actually be completed from one to handset to the other. Cindy, you're uh, uh, you talked about community, you know, you're an engineer, a stye in our eyes, a word is SDN when a word, I suppose they usually hear more on an enterprise side of the show. Right. And, uh, you know, talk with lots of folks who provide, you know, in, in that space. This is a little bit different, right? As you, I don't know if you've had a chance to wander either in the sessions or on the floor, kind of curious. There is some, a little bit of networking out there, a little bit networking, security and a couple of other, certainly some service mesh stuff. Right. I don't know. What are your thoughts about how this is growing up on the, in this open source world? It's, listen, it's growing up very fast, right? >>That's, that's 100% sure. I mean, the show is, is, is growing like leaps and bounds every year. It's insane. And that, that, that debt, that performance yesterday was in front of, I don't know how many thousands of people, but I mean that was huge and it was amazing. Um, and you're right, you know, normally when you're thinking about this kind of stuff, you're not necessarily thinking about the networking, but at the end of the day, you know, Kubernetes is a platform or a tool. SD wan is a tool. Um, and if you take all of these tools and put them together, you can actually build something wonderful, right? And that's what we did in this project here. We were able to deliver a 5g call and you know, run it everywhere. So I think what's important in the community, even though this is really primarily a developer event and developer show, you are seeing some edge people here, you are seeing some networking people here and people are the awareness of, Oh wait, you know, we need edge and we need networking to actually build, you know, commercializable platforms or products, right. Is, it's that awareness that's just, I think this year at least is really starting to come out. And I think next year it's going to be even more prevalent and you're going to the show me evolve, you know? And that's why where I kind of see it going. >>Yeah. I mean, I think application developers and general tend to think networking is amazing. It just happens to be, they're sort of like plumbing and power. Um, but to actually deliver it is a fairly complicated challenge and it's part of the reason we want to do the demo yesterday was actually to kind of show some of the challenges and to kind of show what it takes to set up a mobile network. So the F we're going to use Kubernetes to do that. They, you know, the developers here would have a little bit more understanding so that when we were like, we need, you know, we need multiple interfaces or we need to be able to address things in a certain way. They, they, they have a better understanding of why so they can help us from the telecom industry, uh, design and build it out. >>Yeah. I guess the last thing is we've had the cube of the open source summit. We've been to the open networking summit. Uh, you know, when you get off the stage, you put, you know, there's so many different open source projects that Dan just give us a view as to how they span across all of these communities to make sure that we don't end up with a lot of fragmented things. How does everything kind of pull together in the networking? All right, so, so many projects across so many sources, how does, how does Linux foundation make sure that we don't just end up with, you know, siloed, uh, you know, places? >>Well, yeah, to be, to be honest, it's a little bit of a challenge because sometimes the reason that we end up with multiple projects serving what looks like similar needs is because there are different technical approaches. And so might be one will work better than the other. I mean, that's kind of the idea of open source that people can try different things. Um, and, uh, we just try to help people have more, less of a not invented here sort of mindset that if there's a good reason, uh, to try a different approach, go for it. And let's see what, what takes root and what flowers. Um, but you know, also other people are doing things, so just because you're not aware of them. So we, you know, there's a lot of stuff around education and, um, sharing of information that we try to do that, that helps with that. But I mean, yeah. >>Heather, Cindy, thank you so much for joining us regulations on, on the demo. A lot of hard work. >>Thank you. I just have to tell you, I feel as though a thousand pound weight has been lifted off my shoulders out, but it was extraordinarily fun to do actually. >>It was fun. Thank you for John Troyer. I'm Stu Miniman getting towards the end of our three days wall-to-wall coverage. They're running for the tee shirts that are left, but we've got a couple more interviews. Thank you for watching the queue.

>> Narrator: Live from San Diego, California. It's theCube! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, brought to you by Red Hat. A cloud native computing foundation. >> Welcome back. 12 thousand here in attendance for KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego. I am Stu Miniman, my cohost for this afternoon is John troyer. And happy to welcome to the program, recently out of Stealth, two gentlemen from Chronosphere, Austin. To my right is Martin Mao who is the co-founder and CEO and his co-founder Rob Skillington, who's also the CTO, we've stated on theCUBE actually, you understand where this conference is, where co-founder and CTO is like you know, the most prominent title that we've seen to get on here, because that's the type of geeks we love on the program and in this community. So first of all, congratulations on the launch >> Thank you so much >> And thank you so much for joining us. >> No worries. >> All right, when I've got the founders on, I'm going to start with the whys. How was kind of the problem statement, where you were coming from, and what led to the creation of Chronosphere. >> For sure for sure. So with Chronosphere we found a actual gap in the monitoring market, and a very crowded monitoring market, we found a gap, and the gap exists when companies with very large complex technology stacks, or large enterprises, move on to Cloud Native Technology and Kubernetes. So with this migration, what we've found was there's actually a lot more monitoring data being produced, because there's a lot more pieces now, we're moving from monoliths microservices, we're moving from like physical machines to VMs, to containers and pods. And that generates a lot more things that you need to monitor and track. And not only a lot more things, but you generally monitoring the relationship between these things. So as the number of things increases, the number of relationships exponentially increases. So yeah, that's the sort of problem we're solving, it's like monitoring all of these things at large scale, and when we couldn't find anything, and I could even store all of theses things, so that's it sort of. >> All right, so what is the background of the team that made you into position to work on this problem? >> Yeah great question. I mean me and Martin go back quite a few years. I officiated his wedding, only very very recently actually. And I, yeah we basically work together at several different companies. You know, I think both of us are entrepreneurial at heart. I'll let Martin talk a little bit more about the last few years. >> Yeah, so like you know, a few years ago we started working at Uber. And at Uber, we went through this migrations to our native communities and through that migration that's when we sort of had to solve the problem ourselves. And we solved the problem at Uber, with an open-source project called M3. That's really where this whole thing started. And Chronosphere sort of you know, building on top of M3, and now providing a product on top of the open-source platform that we created. >> Can we talk a little bit about the business? I noticed that you know, there are many ways of approaching open-source, in 2019, you know open core and but also as a service. So can you talk a little bit about how you've approached your business model. >> Yeah for sure. So we're very much in the position or in the camp of as a service, right, because you know a lot of companies do do open core, and they're sort of going into the enterprise support model, we sort of didn't want to go down that route. And also with our open-source product, it's not really an end to end solution in itself, like you use an open-source M3, but you still need to plug it together with other things yourself. So what we really wanted to do was to give customers, and end to end solution, and that was built on top of the great technology, we built with M3, but really it solves the problem sort of end to end, and we do that best as a service. >> Rob maybe you can help explain M3 a little bit for us as to how that fits in the landscape, but what it works with and the like. >> Yeah of course. Yeah it's basically at it's heart a metrics platform, that is built on, at first the lower layer in 3DB, which is a distributive time series database. And then on top of that, we have basically an aggregation platform, that is actually aggregating a lot of the samples, and metrics that we're, collecting. So we can really do some transformations on the data, as it comes in, before it's stored in the database itself. And this let's us do a lot of like smart processing, of what signals actually matter, what signals don't matter, kind of like storing them in a way that can be accessed, much faster than like, other typical systems that don't really do any aggregation before it gets stored. And then, you know we have of course like a query engine that works with this distributed set of data, and so, you know, it's really a database that was designed from day one, to be a metric store. You know, it's not built on Cassandra, it doesn't use Rocks DB, at the lower layers, it literarily every part of it, was built for this purpose. >> Can you talk a little bit about dimensionality and cardinality? Because as I look at this observability monitoring space, I see a lot of current discussion about that and frankly a little bit of fighting, and I'm not always, I can kind of see it, why it's important, but what are some of the reasons and what do people do where you know by having it, and what is it actually, let's start with that. >> Yeah for sure. So you know, with this hot topic of like high cardinality and high dimensionality is, what I was talking about earlier, where as you move into cloud native world, you're now monitoring things at like a pod level. So it's like instead of tracking things on like a per host level, you're now tracking things on like a per pod level now, and that is at >> (interjects) You're tracking more things per pod. >> More things per pod and like every pod unit, these are ephemeral pods now, so they don't live for very long. So you end up having more pieces of data and they're kept around for shorter period of time. And now you need a system that can store all of these pieces of data, because you want to see them uniquely. So you want to monitor each individual pod to see exactly what is running at the finest levels. Right, so you actually need technology that can store a lot more data than you could before. >> And I you know, adding to that, there's a lot more people running with like mobile applications, they use you know that are running in markets all round the world, using different cell providers, and different backend services. You may deploy your backend services multiple times, a week or even a day, and if you want to tag you know, the meta data on and slice and dice by that metadata, with your business and with your applications and your system, that requires you know, adding yet another dimension on your data, which adds to that cardinality. Every time you add a dimension, you know that just multiplies the cardinality of your existing data set of monitoring data. >> And it quickly adds up a lot right, so. >> All right Martin, maybe, since you're just out of Stealth, give us some of the speeds and feeds you know, the product GA, is it globally available? Series A funding, who's behind that? >> Yeah so we just kind of still two weeks ago, we closed up Series A a few months ago actually. It was led by Great Luck, we raised 11 million dollars, and our partner at Great Luck is Gary, and we like him very much. And you know the state of the companies that we are currently in private beta right now. So with our hosted platform, we are onboarding to customers into a private offering right now. And early next year, we'll sort of open that up for more public beta. Yeah. >> And the way folks would use this. You'll be using Prometheus or Graphite or something, and you'd be, so you'd have tracing, you'd have logs, you'd have other things and you would be plugging all of them into, into your services. >> Yeah it's a great question. So you mentioned two of the technologies. So if you're Prometheus or Graphite like to try find metrics, both of those can be pushed into the M3 system for sure. We actually just announced a trace integration, this week a KubeCon actually, Rob David spoke about that integration earlier this week at KubeCon. We haven't moved into the logs yet because the way we look at the problem is not from like a sort of like providing a one-stop shop for all observability solutions, we actually look at it from a use case perspective. So the use case we're looking at is like, realtime monitoring and remediation. So tracing is a part of that stroy, it's a critical part of that story, and now to add additional context, when you get to load it based on your metrics, but, we haven't quite moved into logging yet. >> Yeah, and we don't really want to solve any of these problems without knowing it'll work at scale, you know like a fundamental reason we even built the open-source project in the first place, was we were dealing with cardinality in the tens of billions of unique time series, and so, we don't want to just kind of like roll into any, every single feature under the sun, we really want to solve it once correctly and be able to systematically roll that out to enterprises at scale. >> Without, I mean without talking too much about Uber and any Uber secrets, I mean it seems like the game has changed with that kind of a scale of, you could not have done, you can't run Uber if you're tracking all those cars like literarily without some sort of a tracing like high cardinality sort of a system right? Because you're literarily tracking cars all over the world people all over the world, routes all over the world. >> Exactly, well uniquely positioned, we had the requirements to solve it at such a scale, and that's why we had to build this technology to solve it for that unique situation, because you know technologies ahead of time, did not really have this use case to solve. So that's why we had to sort of, we couldn't find anything out in the market because to solve it at that scale, that's why we sort of had to build our own, to uniquely solve it for this use case. >> And yeah, I would add to that, that typically engineers you know, at larger organizations, tend to want to organize everything very nicely, and split it up, and really control how they're monitoring that data, but we've noticed actually, definitely over the last few years, more and more people are open to letting people just start collecting you know, random data, that is relevant to the systems that they're building as they're rolling it out, even as they're experimenting with it, and you know systems today that are built from scratch, to deal with, to be as efficient as possible, with very unstructured data is becoming wildly popular because that's how developers want to develop software. You know, they don't want to have to have to like slice and dice it neatly and package it up and pass it on to others to run. They want to basically slice and dice however they want to, and dynamically , and as they scale up. >> I've always enjoyed every sequel skimmer I've had two, or change oh, yeah. (laughter) >> All right, how have you found the show? How's the reception been? Give us a little bit of the vibe of the show and how it's been going for you. >> Yeah it's been fantastic for us actually. So we just came in at silk so like the name is still quite new, but yeah, we've had a bunch of folks set up with the whole day, we've been giving a demo on the product, so a lot of companies are getting excited about it. I think a we're solving at a scale and that really resonates with, you know, a lot of the people here at the show, we're still solving at a scope, we're solving at a scale that's also in a cost efficient way as well. So that's really been our, we sleep quite well so far. >> Yeah Rob, you gave some sessions. What kind of feedback are you getting from people? Is the problem statement that we talked about at the beginning you know resonating with people that you talk to. >> I mean, I was really, yeah pleased to hear that after my session today, that a lot of people came up to me and said you know, I've never really seen metrics been linked to tracers, the way that we're doing it, in fact that's the first time they'd ever seen a demo, that can do, what we're kind of trying to upstream, we're actually you know, up-streaming a lot of those changes in the open-source well, as well at the same time. And so, you know we've found especially in a lot of the companies today that are pushing everything forward with development wise and how they are running operations is that they using a lot of pages in open source, and then those pages are battle tested in open-source, generally it becomes abstracted, to the point where we're actually a very large amount of people, but then when they need to scale it up, that's when it becomes difficult. So, no I think that you know, a lot of people have been very positive with basically us being able to also push forward the feature on >> Back upstream into the M3 project. >> And also into Prometheus. So I, you know I'm an open metrics, contributor and that's essentially, an exposition format that's built on the Prometheus, exposition format. So it's kind of become a standard way of exchanging metrics, from one system to another. And that's kind of like, basically commoditized and democratize the exchange of metrics to make a lot more systems, interoperable with each another. Which we fundamentally believe in as well, of course we're developing in open-source, and we believe that this systems need to play nicely together. So we can build you know, have building blocks that large companies and organizations can all share and build better things on top of. >> All right, so looking to go to public beta early 2020s, what we said, when we come back in 2020, what kind of the, some of the key KPIs and metrics that you'll be looking at to be successfull in your first year out of Stealth. >> Yeah it's a great question. So you know, since some of the KPIs you guys were looking at doing is coming at the public beta, making it available to a large range of companies, because right now we're sort of onboarding companies sort of one or two at a time, so yeah it's seeing how many companies adopt the product and also, we're again adding more features over time, for that particular use case of like you know, monitoring your technology just like in your business in real time. So it'll be a lot more features coming down the pipeline, and a lot more customer adoption along with that. >> And I would also say you know, our hosted platform is really about offering like deep isolation, between our tenants as well, so basically when we you know, in the next few months to come, we want to make sure that it works basically like clockwork, and everyone can, we can roll out and scale that highly isolated platform for you know tens and hundreds of organizations, and thousands eventually. And so, and doing that at scale is hard. So I think yeah, we'll see how we're doing with that. >> Yeah for sure. >> All right. Rob, Martin congratulations on coming out of Stealth, look forward to hearing more and thank you so much for joining us. >> Glad, thank you so much. >> All right, for John Troyer I'm Stu Miniman, we'll be back getting towards the end of three days, want to walk over here KubeCon, CloudNativeCon thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Live from San Diego, California. It's the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem. >>Welcome back to the queue bumps to men. And my cohost is John Troyer and you're watching the cube here at CubeCon, cloud-native con 2019 in beautiful and sunny San Diego today. Happy to welcome to the program a first time guest, Tom Willkie, who's vice president of product ECRO funnel labs. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. All right, so it's on your tee shirt. We've been hearing, uh, customers talking about it and the like, but, uh, why don't you introduce the company to our audience in a, where you fit in this broad landscape, uh, here at the CNCF show. Thank you. Yes. So Grafana is probably the most popular open source project for dashboarding and visualization. Um, started off focused on time series data on metrics, um, but really recently has branched out into log analysis and tracing and, and all, all of the kinds of aspects of your observability stack. >>Alright, so really big, uh, you know, broad topic there. Uh, we know many of the companies in that space. Uh, there's been many acquisitions, uh, you know, uh, recently in this, um, where, where do you fit in your system? I saw like databases, like a big focus, uh, when, when I, when I look at the company website, uh, bring us inside a little bit. Yeah. As a product to the offering. The customers most, um, >> most, most vendors in this space will sell you a monitoring product that includes the time series database normally includes visualization and some agent as well where pharma Lampson Griffon open source projects, very focused on the visualization aspects. So we are data source agnostic and we have back ends for more than 60 different data sources. So if you want to bring together data from let's say Datadog and combine it with some open source monitoring from, you can do that with. >>Uh, you can, you can have the dashboards and the individual panels in that dashboard combined data from multiple different data sources and we're pretty much the only game in town for that. You can, you can think of it like Tableau allows you to plug into a whole bunch of different databases for your BI with that. But for monitoring and for metrics. Well, so Tom, maybe let's, before we get into the exit products and more of the service and the, and the conference here, let's talk a little well on the front page of your website, you use the Oh 11, why word? So we've said where it's like monitoring here we use words like management, we use words like ops. Observability is a hot topic in the space and for people in a space that has some nuances. And so can you just maybe let the viewers and us know a little bit about what, how the space is looking at this and how you all feel about observability and what everybody here who's running some cloud native apps needs to actually function in production. >>Yeah. So I think, um, you can't talk about observability without either being pro or, or for, um, uh, the three pillars, right? So people talk about metrics, logs and traces. Um, I think what people miss here is that it's more about the experience for the developer, you know, Gruffalo and what we're trying to achieve is all about giving engineers and developers the tools they need to understand what their applications and their infrastructure doing, right? So we're not actually particularly picky about which pillars you use and which products you use to implement those pillars. But what we want to do is provide you with an experience that allows you to bring it all into a single, a single user interface and allows you to seamlessly move between the different sources of data and, and hopefully, uh, combine them in your analysis and in your root cause of any particular incident. >>And that for me is what observability means. It's about helping you understand the behavior of your application in particular. I mean, I'm, I'm a, I'm a software engineer by trade. I'm still on call. I still get paged at 3:00 AM occasionally. And, and having the right tools at 3:00 AM to allow me to as quickly as possible, figure out what happened and then dive into a fix. That's what we're about over funnel labs. All right. So Tom, one of the things we always need to understand and show here. There's the project and there's the company. Yep. Help us just kind of understand, you know, definitely a difference. The products, the, the, the mission of the company and how that fits with the project. So the Gruffalo project predates the company and it was started by taco. Um, he, you know, he saw a spot for like needing a much better kind of graphical editing of dashboards and making, making the kind of metrics way more accessible to your average human. >>Um, the final lab started really to focus on the it and, uh, monitoring observability use cases of profanity and, but the project itself is much broader than that. We see a lot of use cases in industrial, in IOT, even in BI as well. But Grafana labs is a company we're focused on the monitoring side of things. We're focused on the observability. So we also offer, we mean, like most companies, we have an enterprise version of. It has a few data sources for commercial vendors. So if you want to, you want to get your data dog or your Splunk into Grafana, then there's a commercial auction for that. But we also offer a hosted observability platform called Grafana clown. And this is where we take the best open source projects, the best tools that we think you need as an engineer to understand your applications and we host them for you and we operate them for you. >>We scale them, we upgrade them, we fix bugs, we sacrifice the clouds predominantly are hosted from atheists, our hosted graphite and our hosted Loki, our log aggregation system, um, all combined and brought together with uh, with the Gruffalo frontend. So yeah, like two products, a bunch of open source projects for final labs, employees, four of the promethium maintainers. And I'm one of the promethium maintainers. Um, we am employee graphite maintainers. Obviously a lot of Gryffindor maintainers, but also Loki. Um, I'm trying to think, like there's just so many open source projects. We, uh, we get involved with that. Really it's about synthesizing, uh, an observability platform out of those. And that's what we offer as a product. So you recently had an announcement that Loki is now GA. can you talk just a little bit about Loki and aggregation and logs and what Loki does? >>Yeah, I'd love to. Yeah. Um, a year ago in Seattle actually we announced the Loki project. Um, it was super early. I mean I just basically been finishing the code on the plane over and we announced it and no one I think could have predicted the response we had. Um, everyone was so keen and so hungry for alternative to traditional log aggregation systems. Um, so it's been a year and we've learned a hell of a lot. We've had so much feedback from the community. We've built a whole team internally around, around Loki. We now offer a hosted version of it and we've been running it in production now for over a year, um, doing some really great scale on it and we think it's ready for other people to do the same. One of the things we hear, especially at shows like this is I really, I really, you know, developers and the grassroots adopters come to us, say, we really love Loki. >>We really love what you're doing with it. Um, but my boss won't let me use it until it goes to be one. And so really yesterday we announced it's Don V. one, we think it's stable. We're not going to change any of the APS on you. We, uh, we would love you to use it and uh, and put it into production. All right. Uh, we'd like to hear a little bit more about the business side of things. So, um, I believe there was some news around funding, uh, uh, you know, how many people you have, how many, you know, can you parse for us, you know, how many customers have the projects versus how many customers have, uh, you know, the company's products. Well, we don't, we don't call them customers of the projects that users, yes, yes, we, uh, but I'm from a company where we have hundreds of customers. >>Um, I don't believe we make our revenue figures public and, uh, so I'm probably not going to dive into them, but I know, I know the CEO stands up at our, our yearly conference and, and discloses, you know, what our revenue the last year was. So I'll refer you to that. Um, the funding announcement, that was about a month ago. We, uh, we raised a great round from Lightspeed, um, 24 million I believe. Um, and we're gonna use that to really invest in the community, really invest in our projects and, and build a bit more of a commercial function. Um, the company is now about 110 people. I think, um, it's growing so quickly. I joined 18 months ago and we were 30 people and so we've almost quadrupled in size in, in the last year and a half. Um, so keeping up is quite a challenge. Uh, the two projects, uh, products I've already touched on a few hundred customers and I think we're, you know, we're really happy with the growth. >>We've been, uh, we've never had any institutional funding before this. The company is about five years old. So we've been growing based on organic revenue and, and, and, and, you know, barely profitable, uh, but reinvesting that into the company and, and it's, yeah, it's going really well. We're also one of the, I mean it's not that unique I guess, but we're remote first. We have a more than 50% of our employees work from home. I work from my basement in London. We have a few tiny like offices, one in Stockholm and one in New York, but, but we're really keen to hire the best people wherever they are. Um, and we invest a lot in travel. Uh, we invest a lot in, um, the, the right tools and getting the whole company together to really make that work. Actually a really fun place to work. What time? >>We're S we're still in the business here and I don't know how much time you've spent at the booth this year, but I don't, can you compare, I mean, we've been talking about the growth of this community and the growth of this conference. Can you compare say this year to last year, the, the people coming up, their maturity, the maturity of their production, et cetera. Are they, are they ready to buy? Are they still kicking? Are they still wondering what this Cooper Cooper need easy things is, you know, where, where is everybody this year and how does that, how has it changed? Yeah, and that's a good question where we're definitely seeing people with a lot more sophisticated questions. The, the, the conversations we're having at the booth are a lot longer than they've been in previous years. The um, you know, in particular people now know what key is. We only announced it a year ago and gonna have a lot of people asking us very detailed questions about what scale they can run it at. >>Um, otherwise, yeah, I think there is starting to be a bit more commercial intent at the conference, some few more buying decisions being made here. It's still predominantly a community oriented conference and I think the, the, I don't want that to go away. Like, that's one of the things that makes it attractive to me. And, and I bring my whole team here and that's one of the things that makes it attractive to them. But there is a little bit more, I'm a little more sales activity going on for sure. Any updates to the, to the tracing and monitoring observability stories of the projects here at CNCF this year since you as you're part of the promethium project? >> Yes. So we actually, we had the promethium conference in Munich two weeks ago and after each committee conference, the maintainers like to get together and kind of plan out the next six months of the project. >>So we started to talk about um, adding support for things like exemplars into Prometheus's. This is where each histogram bucket, you can associate an example trace that goes, that contributed towards that, that history and that latency. And then you can build nice user interfaces around that. So you can very quickly move from a latency graph to example traces that caused that. Um, so that's one of the things we're looking to do in Prometheus. And of course Jaeger graduated just a week ago. I think. Um, we're big users of Jaeger internally at for final amps. And actually on our booth right now, uh, we're showing a demo of how we're integrating, um, visualization of distributed tracing, integral foreigner. So you can, you know, using the same approach we do with metrics where we support multiple backends, we're going to support Yeager, we're going to support Zipkin, we're going to support as many open source tracing projects as we can with the Grafana UI experience and being able to seamlessly kind of switch between different data sources, metrics all the way to logs all the way to traces within one UI. >>And without ever having to copy and paste your query and make mistakes and kind of translate it in your head. Right. >> Tom, give us a little bit, look forward. Uh, you know, a lot of activities as the thing's going to, you know, graduating and pulling things together. So what should your users be looking for kind of over the next six to 12 months? >> That's a great question. Yeah, I think we do a yearly release cycle for foreigners. So the next one we're, we're aiming towards is for seven, like for me to find a seven's going to be all about tracing. So I really want to see the demo we're doing. I want to see that turned into like production ready code support for multiple different data sources, support for things like exemplars, which we're not showing yet. Um, I want to see all of that done in Grafana in the next year and we've also massively been flushing out the logging story. >>I'm with Loki, we've been adding support for uh, extracting metrics from the logs and I really think that's kind of where we're going to drive Loki forward in the future. And that really helps with systems that aren't really exposing metrics like legacy systems where the only kind of output you get from them is the logs. Um, beyond that. Yeah, I mean the welds are kind of oyster. I think I'm really keen to see the development of open telemetry and um, we've just starting to get involved to that project ourselves. Um, I'm really interested to kind of talk to people about what they need out of a tracing system. We, we see people asking for a hosted tracing systems. Um, but, but IMO is very much like pick the best open source ones. I don't think that's, that's emerged yet. I don't think people know which is the best one yet. >>So we're going to get involved in all of them. See which one's a C, which one's a community kind of coalesces around and maybe start offering a hosted version of that. >> You know, our final thing is, uh, you know, what advice do you have for users? Obviously, you know, you like the open source thing, but you know, they're hearing about observability everywhere there are, you know, the, the whole APM market is moving this direction. There's acquisitions as we talked about earlier. Um, there's so many moving pieces and a lot of different viewpoints out there. So just, you know, from a user, how do you know, how will things ma, what makes their lives easier and what advice would you give them? Yeah, no, definitely. I think a lot of vendors will tell you like to pick a, pick a vendor who's going to help you with this journey. >>Like I would say like, pick a vendor you trust who can help you make those decisions. Like find someone impartial who's gonna not make, not try and persuade you to buy their product. So we would, uh, you know, I would encourage you to try things out to dog food and to really like invest in experimentation. There's a lot going on in, uh, in, in the observability world and in the cloud native world. And you've got to, you've got to try it and see what fits. Like we embrace this, uh, composability of the, uh, of the observatory of, of the observability ecosystem. So like, try and find which, which choices work best for you. Like I, uh, whenever, whenever I talk to him, you still have to lick all the cupcakes in 2019. I think. I mean, I would, it depends on your level of kind of maturity, right? >>And sophistication. Like, I think if, uh, if, if this is really important to you, you should go down that approach. You should try them all. If this is not one of your core competencies that may be going with a vendor that helps you is a better approach. But, but I'm, I come from the open source world and, uh, you know, I like to see the, um, the whole ecosystem and all the different players and all the different, new and exciting ways to solve these problems. Um, so I'm, I'm always going to encourage people to have a play and try things out. All right, Tom, final word, Loki. Explain to us, uh, you know, when you're coming up with it, how you ended, uh, are you the God of mischief? Well, so the official line is the Loki is the, um, is the North mythology equivalent of Prometheus's, uh, in Greek mythology and, and lochia logging project is, is, is Prometheus's inspired logging. So we've tried to take the operational model from, from atheists, the query language from, from atheists and, and the kind of a cost efficiency from, from atheists and apply it to logs. Um, but I will admit to being a big fan of the Marvel movies. All right, Tom Willkie. Thank you so much for sharing the updates on, on the labs. Uh, we definitely look forward to hearing updates from you and thank you. All right, for, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Madmen back with more coverage here from San Diego. Thank you for watching. Thank you for watching the cube.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019. And a special segment, we're actually going to doing our 2020 predictions. I am Stu Miniman, joining me, my two co-hosts of the week. To my left is Justin Warren, who I believe's been to, you went to the first one? >> I've been to all four, yeah. >> All four of the North America shows. >> Yep. >> I personally have been now to three of the North American, as well as one in the Barcelona. And we have a first time KubeConner, but long time host of theCUBE and things, John Troyer to my right. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. So first thing, the rapid fire. 12,000 in attendance. Last year 8,000, the year before 4,000. So, my math says that it will be 16,000 when we come next year to beautiful November in Boston, Massachusetts, which I can drive to. We've had snow in Austin, rain in San Diego. So, I'm predicting 60 to 70 degree weather in Boston, 'cause that never happens in Boston. Number of attendees next year, Justin? >> Well, it was doubling and now they have dropped it to 50%, so I reckon another 50%, I'll reckon 18 to 20,000. >> Stu: Oh, John? >> Yeah, I'll go higher. That many plus one. >> Okay, I feel like we'll do, I bet $1, $1. But, okay-- >> We have not hit peak Kubernetes yet. >> No. >> We definitely have not hit peak Kubernetes. One of the things, I keep looking for the theme of the show, and one of the things, we've been talking in some of the segments, is there needs to be simplification. When we talk about where we're at with cloud adoption, when we talk about some of these environments, there is a broad ecosystem. So, there needs to be some winnowing down of the technologies. We've seen some areas where things like MicroK8s and K3s to be able to be able to put Kubernetes at the edge. It's not that, that will replace Kubernetes, but things need to get simpler in some environments. Justin, I'll throw it to you first. Is simplification the theme of the show, is there something else that's grabbing you? >> The theme for me is that the money has arrived. We saw a little bit of that last year but this year it is definitely just the number of sponsors that we have here, the number of startups that we have here, the ecosystem, the number of parties, the VCs are here. This feels like a lot of other technology shows that we've been to before in their hay day. We are right here in the hay day of Kubernetes. So, I can see it getting bigger. Will there be consolidation? Yes, I think there will. But I think that this is going to broaden out further first. I don't think that we're quite at the point where things need to start collapsing in. I think we're still going to be exploring all the different options that we have. I think the theme is simplification, yes, I agree. But it's now going to be people trying to solve that problem by creating these higher-level services, managed-Kubernetes offerings. A lot of the different component projects that are there, we're going to see a lot of options where they try to manage that for you and make it easier to consume. But there will be several different attempts at that and not all of them are going to survive. >> Yeah, I'll go with you. Simplification's going to be an issue. Has to happen, we saw a lot of different stacks here at the show, if you go out on the show floor. A lot of people are trying to give you a generic platform. A general-purpose platform, maybe it has its own opinionated view of networking, or storage, or management, or security. But at the end of the day we need things on top of the platform. So, I'm hoping next year we see more things on top of the platform, more applications. We saw some big data applications this year. But people are still building engines and I want them to build cars, because not everybody can build the engine. >> Justin: Yes! >> Well, and actually, Justin, a question for you is when we talk about Kubernetes, there's so many people I interview here and they're like, "Well, no, "we know how to build it better than others "and when you want to go across all environments "we should do it." Is that, are we still going to see that for awhile? Or, can we all hold hands, and talk about open source and be able to just manage across all of these environments? >> Well, one of the key founding principles of Kubernetes is that you can operate it the same everywhere. If it's certified Kubernetes, it should function the same, no matter who's build of it it is. So, that just provides us a common platform that we then build on top of. So, I think the main differentiation's going to be on things like the tooling and the services that allow you to operate that base layer of Kubernetes. But that base layer of Kubernetes is about interesting as Ethernet. It's extremely pluggable and it's just ubiquitous, but no one really cares which brand of Ethernet you happen to be giving me. I care about all the stuff that I run on it. And that's what I think that we're going to see a lot more, I'm with you, John. We're going to see a lot more of those services. I'm seeing a bunch of startups at this show that are starting on that journey, they're providing a lot of things like database services, very highly-tuned monitoring and measurement telemetry systems. There's a big push to make sure that there is a certain amount of interoperability between these different services. Things like having open telemetry be the standard for sending telemetry information around. Because everyone knows that if we all build to Ethernet we're all going to have a much better time of it, than if we all start trying to come up with our own version of it and call it Banyan VINES, and FidoNet, and God knows what. >> Okay, I'm glad you brought up the example of Ethernet. First of all, I have no problem watching a 45-minute discussion of what 400 Gig's going to look like, and the challenge and the opportunities. And if you are talking Ethernet in someone's data center, for the most part they're going to run that on a single vendor because while there is interoperability, it's not until I go to the Internet, because layer two, I want to keep it single vendor, when I go layer three I want to do that. Is that, maybe it's not the best analogy but Kubernetes-- >> No, I think that's reasonable. And if you're trying to operate something across different environments then it's much easier if the two environments can talk to each other. Simple example that people tend to forget about is M&A. If one company goes and buys another one and I run Banyan VINES and you run, I don't know, FinLand or something, then we can't talk to each other, and integrating those two companies becomes impossible. But at least if we both have, you might have Juniper, I might have Cicso, those two network sets can still talk to each other. You might be running, I don't know ,Mesosphere, and someone else might be running Mirantis or Rantia, and that's their system for operating Kubernetes. Turns out, actually if you can operate it much the same, one of you can decide, you know what, we're going to operate everything with Rantia, 'cause we think that that's going to be the best thing for the holistic company. You may keep them separate. As long as you get the same outcome then it doesn't really matter. >> Yeah, that's why I think we aren't yet at peak Kubernetes. Those Kubernetes skills that are in high demand from a job market that people are being upskilled on, they're actually still going to be useful. Now, these stacks that these opinions that people are doing. I mean, they want us to talk about people over projects, right? That's a great philosophy, this is a very friendly community, it's very open source. But, cynically, I think, and sometimes people swap your company T-shirt for your project T-shirt that your company is the one that's behind. And that's kind of a, that's a little bit of a bait and switch. Yes, it's an open source stack. Yes, all the major vendors have open source, 100% open source stacks around Kubernetes. But they're all with different projects and they all pick their own projects. So, I think that is yet to be resolved. >> Well, it's interesting 'cause the thing that I heard is it used to be open source was something that people contribute to it. Now, the majority of people that contribute to open source do it as part of their job. So, there is some of that. Yes, I'm paid by company X, but my job is to participate in the community. There is a large company that got bought by $34 billion. They have a lot of contributors out there. Their job is open source, they are on those projects, they might switch from one project to another. We had Kelsey Hightower on today, he's like, "Hey, right, "but we need to think of people above project. "It's okay for them to move from one to the other "between projects or between companies." But, right, it is very much often companies that are behind the scenes and pushing people and dollars into these projects. One thing I like about the CNCF here is we do have, there's 129 end-user companies participating here, so we've reached a certain maturity level that they are driving it, not just companies driving it for the dollars. So, I guess the thing I want to ask though is, there's so many companies here, we started off the conversation this week, John, talking about Docker. And the cautionary tale of how many companies, when I asked, "What is your business model, what do you do?" Is, I created some cool new project. What does that mean? You look at the business model. You live right with Silicon Valley there. What are you seeing as you look forward? What do you expecting to see consistently? >> Oh sure, I mean, half the logos will be gone but they'll be swapped out for other logos, so that's all fine, right? If you have a point solution, as I was kind of pointing out, things are kind of stackifying. So, things need to consolidate from a buyer's perspective. A lot of the sessions here were about custom projects that people did, either in-house or for a customer. So, I think that's okay, that's the natural, it's the natural Cambrian explosion and then die off. >> Yep, creative destruction. (John laughing) That's the general point of how we do things. There's a lot of things that are basically a feature and you can't really build a company behind a feature. They're hoping that they will find some sort of pathway to money, we've seen some big acquisitions where they didn't really find a good route to money. That's fine, people will figure that out. And how you fund this development, Stu, I mean that's the perennial problem. At the moment it's possibly not the perfect solution but it's a pretty good one, in that we have developers are employed by a company that pays them to develop open source software. So, anyone can go and grab that software and then use it. So, we don't actually really depend on that company sticking around. >> And enterprise sales, it's still very expensive to have even a small booth here, and three or four people and nice T-shirts, and all of your swag, and you flew them here. And fly them all around the country to company after company, conference room after conference room. That is an expensive model to sell things. I mean, you need to have a fair amount of revenue. >> All right, so, Justin, a lot of progress, a lot of projects. >> Yeah. >> What's missing? Look out for 2020, is there an area or a space that needs to mature or needs work? What's your advice for this ecosystem? >> Well, for me it's all about the data. So, we've seen a lot of evolution in stateful sets and being able to manage state-based data within the Kubernetes ecosystem, a lot of progress on that, but there's still a long, long, long way to go. Also, just on the general operational tooling. So, the things that we are used to and have taken for granted in other traditional, like vSphere, or we've come from the VMware ecosystem. Simple things like higher availability. So, I need my data to always be available and I need to be able to have this managed. There's a lot of stuff in there but there's still a lot more stuff that needs to happen. Service mesh and that service discovery and making that easy enough for normal mortal humans to deal with, that still really isn't there. You kind of have to be a bit of a super genius to configure that and get it working and operating. So, there's still a lot of very hard work on these quite hard problems, to then make it look simple. >> Yeah, so, John, the one I want to throw to you is Dan Kohn came out on the keynote stage yesterday and he said, "Kubernetes has crossed the chasm, "yet most enterprises are still worried "about software failure." We know many people that are coming in new and shell-shocked when they come to look. What does the industry as a whole and this ecosystem, specifically, need to do to make sure that we don't come a year from now and say, "Wow, things slowed down "because we kind of couldn't get "the vast majority of people on board?" >> Well, I mean, we're going back to, I guess then the same thing, things have to be simpler. In times of uncertainty people either stop or they go to a trusted provider. There is, probably, although there's a high value on Kubernetes skills right now, that also means there's not enough folks. So, if you can't get the engineers. That was a problem in previous generations of some of these stacks, in that if you couldn't get enough engineers, or if the stack, if everybody had their own snowflake version of it and the skills were not transferable you could not move forward. So, I'm hoping we'll see more managed service providers. I'm hoping that we'll see more startups and services built on top of these existing infrastructures, I think we're seeing more of those. I see a lot of stuff in the operations space and kind of the SRE space, the incident management space. Kind of all the tooling you'll need to actually run these things in day two and beyond. And then, hopefully, the industry keeps pounding on digital transformation and process transformation. One project at a time, you start with one, you start small, you start tooling, you start tooling up, you get some small things under your belt and start to learn. But that's enterprise timeline. So, at a certain speed. >> All right, last thing, any aha moments, surprises, cool things as you've been going around the show? Justin? >> Oh, just walking into the show surprised me. Just how big it has gotten and how much energy there is here. It's amazing to me and I can just only see it getting bigger and, I hope, better. I am surprised by the reaction from people who haven't come into the Kubernetes ecosystem, I think. There's still a lot of people out there for whom this is a big surprise. That it's as big a show as this is, there are lots and lots of people out there who can't actually spell Kubernetes. So, there's a lot of work for us to go and do to figure out how we get those people to come into this ecosystem in a way that doesn't shock them and scare them away. >> Yeah, absolutely. Welcome to the party, those of you that had been joined. John? >> Hey, the thing that surprised me was this is both a multicloud show and a non-cloud show. This is the only show where people working in multiple public clouds can come together. So, that's one of the systemic forces causing it to grow. On the other hand, this is not a public cloud-only show. Over and over again, we talk to people here on theCUBE, I talk to people on the show floor, and most of their workloads, or many of their workloads, are on-premises, right? Kubernetes is fully functional and fully up to speed in private cloud, in people's data centers because it is useful. And they're starting to do that process tooling and process re-engineering, even on-site. And then they may be using a portfolio of different clouds. So, I think that was one of the surprising things to me is this was not 100% public cloud show. >> Yeah, and a little bit of caution I'll give there is we want to make sure we don't become complacent and say, oh, well, we could just kind of slide in what we were doing before and not make some change because the driver here, we've been talking about for decades now, was really kind of that application modernization. And Kubernetes and this whole, it is about cloud-native. It's not the Kubernetes, it's the cloud-native piece. >> You know what I didn't hear? I did not hear putting legacy apps on Kubernetes as much this year. Much quieter this year. >> So, and I'll just say, I'll highlight, we did an interview yesterday with the American Red Cross. Tech For Good, it's something that we've been highlighting, John, for especially helping lead the charge and make sure we highlight that. The Microsoft show, they very much talked about that this year. American Red Cross is saying, hey, we always want your dollars but we'd also love your skillset. So, if this community, and specifically Kubernetes, cloud-native ecosystem makes it easier. There's common tooling, something that I've been hearing a lot this year is when I go through that modernization I can hire the next-generation workforce. There's too many of those, oh, I'm doing it the old way. If I don't have somebody with 30 or 40 years experience in the industry, you won't understand our systems and we need that next generation of workforce to be able to get involved. So, love future jobs, Tech For Good, all good things. This community's always been strong on diversity and inclusion. And so, I guess final word I'll say, big shout-out to, of course, the CNCF, this event, they have a large menagerie that they need to take in here and manage, and they're doing a good job. There's always things to work on. They are listening and open. We have really appreciated the partnership. A huge shout-out, of course, to our sponsors that make it possible for us to do this. So, for Justin Warren, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much. We definitely are excited for one more day. Tomorrow, as well as next year in 2020, Amsterdam and Boston. Please reach out always if you have any questions. And thank you so much for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>>Live from San Diego, California at the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage of CubeCon cloud date of con 2019 in San Diego, 12,000 in attendance. I'm just two minute and my cohost is John trier. And welcome back to the program. A multi-time cube alumni. You're on Aviv, who is the CTO and cofounder of a Gwoza. We've had quite a lot of, you know, founders, CTOs, you know, their big brains at this show, your own. So you know, let, let, let's start, you know, there's, there's really a gathering, uh, there's a lot of effort building out, you know, a very complicated ecosystem. Give us first, kind of your overall impressions of the show in this ecosystem. Yeah, so we're very early on on Desecco system. We were one of the first in the first batch of CNCF members when there were a few dozens of those. Not like a thousand of those. Uh, so I've been, I've been to all those shows. >>Uh, we're part of the CNCF committees for different things. And any initiating, I think this has become much more mainstream. I told you before, it's sort of the new van world. You know, I lot a lot more, uh, all day infrastructure vendors along with middleware and application vendor are coming here. All right, so, so one of the things we like having you on the program you're on is you don't pull any punches. So we've seen certain waves of technology come with big promise and fall short, you know, big data was going to allow us to leverage everything and you know, large percentage of, uh, solutions, you know, had to stop or be pulled back. Um, give us, what's the cautionary tale that we should learn and make sure that we don't repeat, you know, so I've been a CTO for many years in different companies and, and what everyone used to say about it, I'm always right. >>I'm only one year off usually. I'm usually a little more optimistic. So, you know, we've been talking about Cloudera and Hadoop world sort of going down and Kubernetes and cloud services, essentially replacing them. We were talking about it four years ago and what do you see that's actually happening? You know, with the collapse of my par and whore, then we're going to Cloudera things are going down, customer now Denon guys, we need equivalent solution for Kubernetes. We're not going to maintain two clusters. So I think in general we've been, uh, picking on many of those friends. We've, we've invented serverless before it was even called serverless with, with nuclear and now we're expanding it further and now we see the new emerging trends really around machine learning and AI. That's sort of the big thing. I'm surprised, you know, that's our space where essentially you're doing a data science platform as a service fully automated around serverless constructs so people can, can develop things really, really quickly. >>And what I see that, you know, third of the people I talk to are, have some relations to machine learning and AI. Yeah. Maybe explain that for our audience a little bit. Because when, you know, Kubernetes first started very much an infrastructure discussion, but the last year or two, uh, very much application specific, we hear many people talking about those data use cases, AI and ML early days. But you know how, how does that fit into the overall? It's simple. You know there, if you're moving to the cloud are two workloads. There is lift and shift workloads and there are new workloads. Okay, lift and ship. Why? Why bother moving them to Kubernetes? Okay, so you end up with new workloads. Everyone is trying to be cloud native server, elastic services and all that. Everyone has to feed data and machine learning into those new applications. This is why you see those trends that talk about old data integration, various frameworks and all that in that space. >>So I don't think it's by coincidence. I think it's, that's because new applications incorporate the intelligence. That's why you hear a lot of the talk about those things. What I loved about the architecture, what you just said is like people don't want to run into another cluster. I don't want to run two versions of Kubernetes, you know, if I'm moving there you, because you, but you're still built on that, that kind of infrastructure framework and, and knowledge of, of how to do serverless and how to make more nodes and fewer nodes and persistent storage and all that sort of good stuff and uh, and, and run TensorFlow and run, you know, all these, all these big data apps. But you can, um, you can talk about that just as a, as a, the advantage to your customer cause you could, it seems like you could, you could run it on top of GKE. >>You could run it on prem. I could run my own Coobernetti's you could, you could just give me a, uh, so >> we, we say Kubernetes is not interesting. I didn't know. I don't want anyone to get offended. Okay. But Kubernetes is not the big deal. The big deal is organizations want to be competitive in this sort of digital world. They need to build new applications. Old ones are sort of in sort of a maintenance mode. And the big point is about delivering new application with elastic scaling because your, your customers may, may be a million people behind some sort of, uh, you know, uh, app. Okay. Um, so that's the key thing and Kubernetes is a way to deliver those microservices. But what we figured out, it's still very complicated for people. Okay. Especially in, in the data science work. Uh, he takes him a few weeks to deliver a model on a Jupiter notebook, whatever. >>And then productizing it is about the year. That's something we've seen between six months to a year to productize things that are relatively simple. Okay. And that's because people think about the container, the TensorFlow, the Kuda driver, whatever, how to scale it, how to make it perform, et cetera. So let's, we came up with is traditionally there's a notion of serverless, which is abstraction with very slow performance, very limited set of use cases. We sell services about elastic scaling paper, use, full automation around dev ops and all that. Okay. Why cannot apply to other use cases are really high concurrency, high-speed batch, no distributed training, distributed workload. Because we're coming, if you know my background, you know, been beeping in Mellanox and other high-performance companies. So where I have a, we have a high performance DNA so we don't know how to build things are extremely slow. >>It sort of irritates me. So the point is that how can we apply this notion of abstraction and scaling and all that to variety of workloads and this is essentially what it was. It is a combination of high speed data technology for like, you know, moving data around on between those function and extremely high speed set though functions that work on the different domains of data collection and ingestion, data analytics, you know, machine learning, training and CIN learning model serving. So a customer can come on on our platform and we have testimonials around that, that you know, things that they thought about building on Amazon or even on prem for months and months. They'd built in our platform in few weeks with fewer people because the focus is on building the application. The focus is not about joining your Kubernetes. Now we go to customers, some of them are large banks, et cetera. >>They say, Alrighty, likes Kubernetes, we have our own Kubernetes. So you know what, we don't butter. Initially we, we used to bring our own Kubernetes, but then you know, I don't mind, you know, we do struggle sometimes because our level of expertise in Coobernetti's is way more sophisticated than what they have to say. Okay, we've installed Kubernetes and we come with our software stack. No you didn't, you know, you didn't configure the security, they didn't configure ingress, et cetera. So sometimes it's easier for us to bring, but we don't want him to get into this sort of tension with it. Our focus is to accelerate development on the new application that are intelligent, you know, move applications from, if you think of the traditional data analytics and data science, it's about reporting and what people want to do. And some applications we've announced this week and application around real time cyber collection, it's being used in some different governments is that you can collect a lot of information, SMS, telephony, video, et cetera. >>And in real time you could detect terrorists. Okay. So those application requires high concurrency always on rolling upgrades, things that weren't there in the traditional BI, Oracle, you know, kind of reporting. So you have this wave of putting intelligence into more highly concurrent online application. It requires all the dev ops sort of aspects, but all the data analytics and machine learning aspects to to come to come along. Alright. So speaking of those workloads for, for machine learning, uh, cube flow is a project, uh, moving the, moving in that space along it. Give us the update there. Yeah. So, so there is sort of a rising star in the Kubernetes community around how to automate machine learning workflows. That's cube flow. Uh, I'm personally, I one of the committers and killed flow and what we've done, because it's very complicated cause Google developed the cube cube flow as one of the services on, on a GKE. >>Okay. And the tweaked everything. It works great in GK, even that it's relatively new technology and people want to move around it in a more generic. So one of the things in our platform is a managed cube flow that works natively with all the rest of the solutions. And other thing that we've done is we make it, we made it fully. So instead of queue flow approach is very con, you know, Kubernetes oriented containers, the ammos, all that. Uh, in our flavor of Coupa we can just create function and you just like chain functions and you click and it runs. Just, you've mentioned a couple of times, uh, how does serverless, as you defined it, fit in with, uh, Coobernetti's? Is that working together just functions on top or I'm just trying to make here, >> you'll, you'll hear different things. I think when most people say serverless, they mean sort of front end application things that are served low concurrency, a Terra, you know, uh, when we mean serverless, it's, we have eight different engines that each one is very good in, in different, uh, domain like distributed deep learning, you know, distributed machine learning, et cetera. >>And we know how to fit the thing into any workloads. So for me, uh, we deliver the elastic scaling, the paper use and the ease of use of sort of no dev ops across all the eight workloads that we're addressing. For most people it's like a single Dreek phony. And I think really that the future is, is moving to that. And if you think about serverless, there's another aspect here which is very important for machine learning and Israel's ability. I'm not going to develop any algorithm in the world. Okay. There are a bunch of companies or users or developers that can develop an algorithm and I can just consume it. So the future in data science but not just data science is essentially to have like marketplaces of algorithms premade or analytic tools or maybe even vendors licensing their technology through sort of prepackaged solution. >>So we're a great believer of forget about the infrastructure, focus on the business components and Daisy chain them in to a pipeline like UFO pipeline and run them. And that will allow you most reusability that, you know, lowest amount of cost, best performance, et cetera. That's great. I just want to double click on the serverless idea one more time, but, so you're, you're developing, it's an architectural pattern, uh, and you're developing these concepts yourself. You're not actually, sometimes the concept gets confused with the implementations of other people's serverless frameworks or things like that. Is that, is that correct? I think there are confusion. I'm getting asked a lot of times. How do you compare your technology compared to let's say a? You've heard the term gay native is just a technology or open FAS or, yeah. Hold on. Pfizer's a CGIs or Alito. An open community is very nice for hobbies, but if you're an enterprise and it's security, Eldep integration, authentication for anything, you need DUIs, you need CLI, you need all of those things. >>So Amazon provides that with Lambda. Can you compare Lambda to K native? No. Okay. Native is, I need to go from get and build and all that. Serverless is about taking a function and clicking and deploying. It's not about building. And the problem is that this conference is about people, it people in crowd for people who like to build. So they, they don't like to get something that work. They want to get the build the Lego building blocks so they can play. So in our view, serverless is not open FAS or K native. Okay. It's something that you click and it works and have all the enterprise set of features. We've extended it to different levels of magnitude of performance. I'll give you an anecdote. I did a comparison for our customer asking me the same question, not about Canadian, but this time Lambda. How do you guys compare with London? >>Know Nokia is extremely high performance. You know we are doing up to 400,000 events on a single process and the customer said, you know what, I have a use case. I need like 5,000 events per second. How do you guys compare a total across all my functions? How do you compare against Lambda? We went into, you know the price calculator, 5,000 events per second on Lambda. That's $50,000 okay. $50,000 we do about, let's say even in simple function, 60,000 per process, $500 VM on Amazon, $500 VM on Amazon with our technology stick, 2000 transactions per second, 5,000 events per second on Lambda. That's 50,000. Okay. 100 times more expensive. So it depends on the design point. We designed our solution to be extremely efficient, high concurrency. If you just need something to do a web hook, use Lambda, you know, if you are trying to build a high concurrency application efficient, you know, an enterprise application on it, on a serverless architecture construct come to us. >>Yeah. So, so just a, I'll pause at this for you because a, it reminds me what you were talking about about the builders here in the early days of VMware to get it to work the way I wanted to. People need to participate and build it and there's the Ikea effect. If I actually helped build it a little bit, I like it more to get to the vast majority, uh, to uh, adopt those things. It needs to become simplified and I can't have, you know, all the applications move over to this environment if I have to constantly tweak that. Everything. So that's the trend we've been really seeing this year is some of that simplification needs to get there. There's focus on, you know, the operators, the day two operations, the applications so that anybody can get there without having to build themselves. So we know there's still work to be done. >>Um, but if we've crossed the chasm and we want the majority to now adopt this, it can't be that I have to customize it. It needs to be more turnkey. Yeah. And I think it's a friendly and attitude between what you'll see in Amazon reinvent in couple of weeks. And then what you see here, because there is those, the focus of we're building application a what kind of tools and the Jess is gonna just launch today on the, on the floor. Okay. So we can just consume it and build our new application. They're not thinking, how did Andy just, he built his tools. Okay. And I think that's the opposite here is like how can you know Ali's is still working inside underneath dude who cares about his team. You know, you care about having connectivity between two points and and all that. How do you implement it that, you know, let someone else take care of it and then you can apply your few people that you have on solving your business problem, not on infrastructure. >>You know, I just met a guy, came to our booth, we've seen our demo. Pretty impressive how we rise people function and need scales and does everything automatically said we want to build something like you're doing, you know, not really like only 10% of what you just showed me. And we have about six people and for three months where it just like scratching our head. I said, okay, you can use our platform, pay us some software license and now you'll get, you know, 10 times more functionality and your six people can do something more useful. Says right, let's do a POC. So, so that's our intention and I think people are starting to get it because Kubernetes is not easy. Again, people tell me we installed Kubernete is now installed your stack and then they haven't installed like 20% of all the things that you need to stop so well your own have Eve always pleasure to catch up with you. Thanks for the all the updates and I know we'll catch up with you again soon. Sure. All right. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back with more coverage here from CubeCon cloud date of con in San Diego. Thanks for watching the cube.

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and my Co-host is John Troyer. And you're watching theCUBE here in day two of our coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. And joining me is Tobi Knaup who is the co-founder and CTO of D2iQ. See what I did there, Tobi? >> That's right, I love it. >> Alright. So Tobi, first of all, KubeCon, of course D2iQ, last year when we were here it was Mesosphere, so give us a little bit, you've been to lots of customer meetings, 12,000 people in attendance, tell us a little bit about the energy and how your team's finding the show so far. >> Yeah, obviously biggest KubeCon so far and it's just amazing how far this community has come, how it's grown. How many projects are part of it now, how many vendors here, too. You know two expo halls with different booths and you know, I think it just shows how important this community, this ecosystem is. When customers come to us and say they want to work with Kubernetes the community's why they're really doing it. >> Yeah, it is a great community, great vibe for people that aren't already in it. It's easy to get started, but one of the big themes we're hearing here is simplicity, how to make it easier to get going and once they get going, what happens after day one? That's some of the rebranded pieces. So for our audience, explain a little bit, why the rebrand focus of the company, Day 2 operations, absolutely something that I hear a lot of discussion on and why is your team specifically well positioned for that environment. >> No absolutely, so the rebrand we did because obviously our old company named Mesosphere has Mesos in it. That's the open source product we started with. But we've been doing a lot more than that actually for many years, right? We help customers run Apache Kafka and Spark and Cassandra. We've been doing a lot with Kubernetes also for some time now and even more so now. So having one particular technology in the company name was holding us back, right. People just put us in that box but we're doing so much more. So that was the reason for the rebrand and so, we wanted a name that doesn't have a particular technology in it and so we're looking for what is really expressed, what we do, what we help our customers with? And we've always been focused on Day 2 operations, so everything that happens after the initial install. How do you monitor things properly, upgrade them and so on? So that's why we loved that Day 2 concept. And then the IQ really stands for a couple of things. First of all we try to put a lot of automation into our products, so make those products smart to help our customers. But more importantly too, when we look at the ecosystem as a whole, where are most customers at, where are most companies at. Well, they're still early in their cloud-native journey and they need to get up to speed, they need to get smart about cloud-native and about Day 2 operations and so that's the IQ piece. We want to help our customers become smart about this space, get educated and then learn to do cloud-native. >> So Tobi, one of the things that fascinates me about the Kubernetes ecosystem is that people bring stuff to the table. Kubernetes is here, that's evolving. Other companies, entities, projects are coming to the table with other open source concepts and solving problems that they have in the field. At D2iQ, when you were Mesosphere, you have years of experience dealing with production issues, scaling management, all these sort of really, really fascinating cloud-native problems, so you bring a lot of experience to the table. So one of the projects that you are now working on and working with your customers and partners and the bigger ecosystem on is a way of approaching operators. The concept of bringing this kind of lifecycle automation to applications and helping with all these Day 2 problems. Can you talk a little about so KUDO is the name of the framework, I guess. Can you talk a little bit about that and how you're bringing that here to sit at the table and what some people's experiences with that are and what they are using it for? >> Absolutely, yeah, so these data services, these stapler workloads like Kafka, Cassandra and Spark, that's been in our DNA for a very long time. In fact, a little known fact, Apache Spark was originally a demo application for Apache Mesos. That's how it started originally. Obviously, it took off. So, we've been doing that since even before we were a company. And we've been helping our customers on top of Mesos with running these complex data stacks and there's some equivalent of operators on top of Mesos called frameworks. So we've been building these frameworks and we realized it's a little too hard to build these things. We typically had to write thousands of lines of code, 10, 20,000 sometimes and it took too long. So what we actually did on Mesos many years ago is we extracted the common patterns from those frameworks and built it into a library and made it so you can actually build a framework with just configuration, with just YAML, so it's a language that allows you to essentially sequence your operations into phases and steps. kind of like you would write a run book that a human operator takes and then goes through, right? So when we looked at the Kubernetes Operator space, we saw some of those same challenges that we had faced years ago. Building a Kubernetes Operator requires to write a lot of code. Not every company has Go programmers, people that are skilled enough in Kubernetes that they can write an operator. And more importantly too, once you write those 10,000 lines of code or more, you also have to maintain it. You have to keep up with API changes and so, a lot of folks we talked to at KubeCon last year and to customers, said it's just too hard to build operators. The other side of that too, is folks said it's a little too hard to use those operators too because very common use cases, you build a data pipeline. That means you'll be using multiple different operators, say Kafka, Cassandra and Spark. So if those all have different APIs, that's pretty hard to manage. So we wanted to simplify that. We wanted to create an alternative way for building operators that doesn't require you to learn Go, doesn't require you to write code, it works with just this orchestration language that KUDO offers and then for the KUDO users, the API is the same across these different operators. It has a plugin for Kube Cuddle, so you can interface with all the different operators through that. So yeah, simplicity and a great developer experience are the keys here. >> Tobi, I was wondering maybe you bring us inside the personas you target with this type of solution. As we've seen the maturation of this space, first couple of years I came, it felt very infrastructure heavy. The last year or two, there's more of the AppDev discussion there. They don't always speak the same languages. Looks like you've got some tooling here to help simplify that environment and make it easier because of course your application developers don't want to worry about that stuff. That's the promise of things like serverless, or just we're going to take care of that and stats and whatnot, so where specifically do you target and what are you hearing from customers as to how they're sorting through these organizational changes? >> Yeah, so I think ultimately, everybody kind of wants a platform as a service in some way, right? If you're building an app for your business, you don't want to think about, how do I provision this database, how to do that? And obviously, I can go to a public cloud and I can use all those public cloud services but what a lot of folks are doing now is they're running on various different types of infrastructure. They're running on multiple public clouds. They're running on the Edge. We work with a lot of customers that have a need to deploy these data services, these operators in Edge locations, on the manufacturing floor in a factory, for instance. Or on a cruise ship, that's one company we're working with. So, how do you bring this API-driven deployment of these services to all these different types of locations? And so that's what we try to achieve with KUDO for the data services and then with our other products too, like Kommander, which is a multi-cluster control plane. It's about when organizations have all these different clusters. And very typically they get into the dozens or even hundreds of clusters fast. How do you then manage that? How do you apply configuration consistently across these clusters? Manage your secrets and RBAC rules and things like that? So those are all the Day 2 things that we try to help customers with. There's a little bit of a tension there sometimes, right? Because the great thing about Kubernetes is it's great for developers. It has a nice API, people love the API. People are very quick to adopt it, right? They try it out on their laptop, they setup their first cluster. That typically goes very fast and they very quickly have their first app running. So it happens organically, right? But every large organization also has a need to put the right governance in place, right? How I keep those clusters secure? How do I meet my regulatory requirements? How do I make sure I can upgrade those clusters fast, if I need to fix a security issue and so on? So there's that tension between the governance, the central IT and what the developers want to do. We try to strike a balance there with our products to give developers the agility that cloud-native promises but at the same time, give the IT folks the right controls so they can meet their requirements. >> Tobi, here at the show this year, obviously bigger and a lot more folks at different parts of their cloud-native journey. Again, with the experience you all have, as you talk to folks this year, obviously people are clearly in production. You talk about some of the governance issues, is there anything you can say about either what you think is going to make for a successful partnership with you and a successful customer? What qualities do you need to have by the time you're growing up in production and then also as they're making choices here, what should the end users be looking at? >> Right, so one of the things we realized over the years is actually cloud-native is a journey. Every organization is somewhere else on that journey. And you said partnership, I think that's the key word here. We want to partner with our customers because we realize that this stuff is complicated, right? And it's actually for us as a company, our journey has been kind of interesting because we started at this large scale spot, right? Before we were even a company, we were running these clusters with tens of thousands of notes. These large online services at Twitter and other companies, that's where we started and that's where our first product kind of landed. It's at that large scale is what we're known for but most organizations out there are much earlier in their journey to cloud-native. As so, what we realized is that we really need to partner with folks to even at the very first steps, where they're just getting educated about this space, right? What are containers? How are they different from VMs? What is this cluster management thing, right? How does this all fit together? So we try to hold our customers' hands, catch them where they are. Besides all of the software that we're building, we also offer trainings for example. And so we just try to have the conversation with the customer. Figure out what their needs are, whether that's training, whether that's services or different products. And the different products that come together in our Kubernetes product line, they're really designed to meet the customer at these different stages. There's Konway, that's our Kubernetes distribution, get your first project up and running. Then once you get a little bit more sophisticated, you probably want to do CI/CD. So we have an upcoming product for that, it's called Dispatch. Pretty excited about it. The data services with KUDO. Folks typically add that next and then very quickly you have these dozens of hundreds of clusters. Now, you need Kommander, right? So we try to fit that all together. Meet the customer where they are and I think education is a big piece of that. >> All right, Tobi, we want to give you the final word. You talked about some of the things coming out here, so just give us your viewpoint of the ecosystem broader as to what next things need to be done to help even further the journey that we're all on? >> Yeah, I think in terms of next things, there's a lot of interest around operators. Well, operators as the implementation but really what's happening is, people are running more and more different workloads on top of Kubernetes, right? And I think that's where a lot of the work is going to happen over the next year. There's some discussions in the CNCF now even. What is an operator? How do we define that? Is it something fairly broad? Is it something fairly specific? But Kubernetes is definitely the factor standard for doing cloud-native and people are putting it in a lot of different environments. They're putting it in Edge locations. So I think we need to figure out how do you have a sane sort of development workflow for these types of deployments? How do you define an application that might actually run on multiple different clusters? So I think there's going to be a lot of talk. Operators obviously, but also on the developers side, in a layer above Kubernetes, right? How can I just define my application in a way where I say maybe just run this thing at a highly available way on two different cloud providers, instead of saying specifically it needs to go here, it needs to go there? Or deploy this thing in a follow the sun model or whatever that is. So I think that's where a lot of the conversations are going to happen, is that level above. >> All right well Tobi, appreciate the updates. Congratulations on the progress and definitely look forward to catching more from you and D2iQ team in the near future. >> Thank you very much for having me. >> All right, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, lots more to come. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (light music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon, brought to you by RedHat, a CloudNative computing foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi and welcome back to Kubecon, CloudNativeCon 2019 here in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman and my cohost for three days of coverage is John Troyer, and happy to welcome back to the program, was on the keynote stage earlier at the conference, Derek Collison is the founder and CEO of Synadia. >> Yes, welcome. >> Stu: Showing the logo, thanks so much for joining us, Derek. >> Oh, thank you, I really appreciate it, it's been a while. >> Yeah, it has, so you know, we've known you for many years, had you on the program, you look at us, you've got one of those VIP logos 'cause you've been on the show a few times, and you've seen a couple of these waves. Latest thing, of course, you're talking a lot about NATS, but of course Cloud Foundry you built that, so you've seen a lot of these waves, but I want to start with something you said that I thought was really thought-provoking and interesting. A lot of people, we talk about the Cloud economy, talk about the data economy... You talk about the connective economy, so, explain to our audience a little bit what that means. >> So, the general gist of it is, hey, where's the innovation and where's the value coming out of information technology, IT, infrastructure and things like that, and for a long time, we were swept up in the Cloud economy, which was how you move from CapEx into OpEx, and things like that, and then of course it was all about data. And it still is about data, but if you notice, it's not the data moving to where you're trying to process things, now it's all of a sudden being distributed, and so you take that, and you take MicroServices, and you take all these things, and at least from my perspective, I see the value driving out of these systems now is in, how are they connected? How are you observing them, how are you securing them and trusting them? And I believe that's where the value in the next wave of innovation's going to come from. >> Yeah, it's funny, I hear sometimes we talk about the pendulum of technology, and I look in the ten years we've been doing this, really we're talking about the journey along the distributed architecture we've been trying to build, and it's not moving back and forth, but it's kind of... >> Derek: Circling. >> It's kind of circling, and some of the themes are repeating, but it's growing that along the way, so, give us NATS and messaging, how this plays into helping to solve that communication issue, it's the kind of thing, we read about in the Google papers as to, global distributed architectures. >> Yeah, so, the general gist is that NATS was built to power Cloud Foundry, right, and that was the deployment mechanism for applications and such like that. And NATS, just like a lot of the other technologies, was built for an itch I needed to scratch. And it was a silo technology. So about two years ago, we had the opportunity to actually think about if we wanted to make a business out of NATS, right? And any time you say open source and commercial entity, there's challenges, and I don't think anyone has all of the answers. But the answer we came up with internally as a team was, we need to build something that's value is greater than the sum of its parts. I personally, again, and a lot of people won't agree with me and that's okay, I don't believe in the open core model. I don't believe in the fact that you make certain enterprise features and certain open source features. However, what I do believe is that if we could take a communication technology and make it a true utility, like the global cellular now, or the Internet, and connect everything, we'd have these opportunities that no one could foresee, for example, with the web, or even with the global cellular network and what people think is about to happen with the 5G. So we took NATS, which is a very mature technology, made it multi-tinted, made it very, very forward-looking secure, made it run in any Cloud, Edge, IoT, with the hope that we could encourage people to connect everything, start isolated, but have the ability to say, hey, we want to start sharing data securely in an audited way, that it's drop-dead simple to do. It's not a, let's plan a six-month project to integrate your systems with these systems and things like that, and so that's the gist of what we're trying to do, and we believe that running this thing as a server as such that it's a utility, it's not just something for you or for you or for me, it's that we're all using the same thing and we're all connected if we want to be, we think there's value there. >> Derek, maybe let's go in a little bit on NATS, and the service you're running too, but maybe educate us a little bit on the landscape here. We've already talked about IoT, Cloud data, VAP messaging, and I think people understand, to a certain extent, what a messaging system is, sometimes it gets conflated with a streaming system, maybe you could talk about what NATS does really well, we've talked about security, we've talked about a few other things, you've teased already here, but how should we be thinking about NATS? >> Well, I think, outside of NATS, just in general, any type of way of communications, we need to think secure by default, right? We can't do what happened with the Internet, where we go, ooh, it'd be really nice to do these kind of things, but we need security. And we have to wait, as a group of excited individuals, probably 15 years to get that, we can't do that in this generation with IoT and things. But when you look at NATS, or any technology, there's essentially two types of patterns that anybody wants to support. A service-based pattern, where I ask you a question, you give me an answer, ninety-plus percent of distributed systems today, that's their main architectural pattern. So I'm coordinating and asking a lot of questions of these services, micro-services, you know, has become popular. Streaming is now becoming popular with things like Kafka and stuff like that, it's been around for a while, but that's the second, other pattern. So it's like, I'm emitting events or data streams or things like that, and they could be persisted or not, but essentially if you want to make it simple, it's services and streams, and for us, we wanted technology that did equally well in both of them, right, you didn't have to pick one technology for one pattern and another one for a different one. >> All right, let's talk a little bit about your business. So you talked a little bit about kind of the business model, so explain the business model, what you're doing, how that actually goes together? >> Yeah, and for the viewers, this is our take on it, which means it's advice, you get what you pay for, it's free, type of stuff, but, you know... Been around the block a little bit. So, when we started out, what we didn't want to do is ignore the old models. I don't think a long-term business model is the old models, meaning recurring support, consulting, NRE work type of stuff, but I've also seen startups that ignore that and say, "no, we're not going to do that at all." And I did a little bit of that with my prior company, so we embrace that, but we know long-term that's not going to be it. So we deploy a global network, we have a global network, it's available with a single URL, secure by default, runs in every Cloud, every major GO, and more importantly, you can extend it on your own, on your own servers, with the RN off to do that. And we believe that Saas model, that utility model where, again, its value is greater than the sum of its parts, allows us to keep everything open-source, but there's a value in being connected to this network. Multi-Cloud, Cloud to Edge, all that kind of stuff. And what we want is we want customers to slowly transition to that. I've been telling people there's basic cable, which is like, just the dial tone, then there's going to be premium channels on that, that you can pay for, like storage, DR, secrets, zero-trust mechanisms, anomaly detection around communication patterns. People might opt in and say, "ooh, we want to pay for those things 'cause they're interesting to us." And then the last piece of that pie is, there may be people who are running against the global utility, running their own servers, and they go, "that service right there inside of that system, we love it, we want it on premise, can we actually license it from you?" So it's a combination of softwares and service, license revenue, and recurring support. >> Okay, and so, are you enabling partners to deliver those services, is that Synadia does that themselves, where do those premium services come from? >> So, we're going to seed the market, but yeah, we want it to be an open marketplace, and what we will provide is things like billing and such like that, almost, not exactly, but almost like the app store, the Apple app store, where someone who just wants to write a simple service, and if people like it, they don't have to do much, they just have it run and it's receiving stuff and they just get paid. So we do think that's a federated model. Believe it or not, we also feel running the network on a global scale is also federated. So we've designed it such that we don't have to be the only operators. Matter of fact, if we're successful, we're the smallest operator going forward. But, the system is always interconnected, right, so if John's trying to connect in and he's connecting to a Google server, I can connect to that server also, even though Synadia might have actually granted me the rights to access the system. And so we're working on that, we're thinking about that, but Cloud providers are really good at running infrastructure and running services on that infrastructure. We want to embrace that, we just want to make sure that any user of the system, it's like a SIM card that's unlocked, essentially, right? You could go to any provider that you want and it works, that's what we want to make sure we set up for. >> Right, it seems like a great example of this next wave of companies that's being built on top of the existing Cloud infrastructure. You don't have to be a hoster yourself, you could take advantage of and partner with all the other infrastructure providers and interconnect them in several different ways. Maybe, Derek, could you give us an example of an app, what an app might look like that's globally distributed and what kind of messages would be being passed back and forth? >> Sure, so, we're about to release something on Synadia where we truly believe, at the base of everything, it's just sending messages. And so, most people think of NATS as a communication mechanism, and it is, but when we say storage or state storage, they kind of say, "oh, NATS doesn't do that." But we can send a message to a KV service that says KV.set, and I could send a message that says KV get and get it back. Now, what's interesting is, we can make that zero trust, meaning, it leaves your app totally encrypted, so none of our servers, none of Google, Amazon, or Azure's servers, actually even understand what the heck it is, but what's interesting is, you could connect to any of our servers worldwide, or even run your own servers, and connect to those, and it works, all the time. We have another one that's just a usage server, meaning it tells you how much usage you've been racking up, let's say, over the month, kind of like a cell bill. And the way we built it was, there's multiple servers that are running, collecting this data, totally independent, there's no consensus. Everyone has the same subject, NGS.usage, you send a request saying, "what's my usage for the last hour?" Yet the backend service, guaranteed secure, trusted, it receives a request that it knows it's John, knows it's Stu, knows it's Derek, and so it can say, "oh, I'm trying to get John's usage, I'm trying to get Stu's usage." Yet the user experience is, everyone does the same thing, which we think is extremely powerful. And you don't have to do anything unnatural to get that with a system like NATS, right, where we tried to put security first and really think hard about what it meant, and that wasn't fun, it wasn't easy, but we think it's important. >> Yeah. So, Derek, I want to kind of step up-level a second here, 'cause you've got some great viewpoints on things, so, there's some people that look at a show like this or look at the industry and say, "Ah, there's all this hype around multi-Cloud, but there's a lot of challenges." Does it become least common denominator? How do these things work together? My definition that I've been saying for a while, I'll use a phrase you've used a couple of times. If, for multi-Cloud to be real, the value that I get out of it has to be greater than the sum of its parts. You live through the PaaS and the post-PaaS era, you've done a number of environments here, so where are we today, where do we need to go as an industry, as a whole, to reach that value statement that we talk about? >> Yeah, that's a great question. Even from day one in Cloud Foundry, I've believed in multi-Cloud, but I've watched how the markets have actually reacted and what they are doing, and the first wave in my perspective was, posturing for better pricing. To be honest with you, it was Netflix go, "hey we're going to move to Google unless you give us a better price." And I've seen that time and time again. Where it becomes real, though, is, when there's a class of service in a given Cloud provider, that is extremely attractive. Amazon, just in terms of the breadth, Azure a lot for some of the big data stuff, Google a lot for some of the AI stuff they have. Where an organization has a legitimate use to say "we really need best of breed in AI," best of breed in, let's say, big data, and they want to run an app in Azure and an app in Google, and that's kind of the realest situation I've seen. The notion of running something that's truly oblivious and can run anywhere, it's possible, but your lowest common denominators compute and simple storage, and a lot of times, that's not actually distinguishing. So I still see a lot of pricing pressure, you know, posturing, around multi-Cloud, just as a negotiation tactic. Where I see it being real is, this class of app, we want to run it in this Cloud provider to access these services that are differentiating. >> Derek, you have been around for a few generations of Stack wars, PaaS wars, I don't know that they need a name. Any advice to application architects and technologists who are choosing technologies here? I mean, here at this conference, Kubernetes is kind of a common assumption for a lot of what people are doing, not everybody, but there's a lot of other parts that plug into it, and a lot of other decisions to be made about architectures, and about, everything from messaging, to security, to networking, to storage, and I can go on and on and on and on. So, I mean how... Again, you've seen this happen a couple times, people having to pick and make choices, worried about lock-in, whatever they're worried about, I don't know. What are your thoughts on what's the, what are the right ways to do this so you actually succeed? >> Yeah, you know, it's a great question. And yeah, I have seen the pendulum swing back and forth quite a bit, but I think for the viewers, I can simplify it, at least from my perspective. It goes between choice and simplicity. So if you look in even the PaaS wars versus IaS versus all that stuff, PaaS was a swing towards simplicity, get stuff done, you know what I mean? And then there was like, "oh, I can get stuff done, but I don't have enough choice." So we saw this swing back, and I think Kubernetes hit at the absolute perfect time to take advantage of, "hey, we need choice at these base layers," right? And the way Kubernetes was architected was to give you that full choice. So if a startup's coming along and saying, okay, given the fact that the pendulum's over here, knowing it's going to be swinging back, and at least in my opinion, we're swinging back for simplicity, concentrate on, how do you simplify what people are struggling with today? So at this conference, there's a tremendous amount of people, you can get a lot of insight into what's going on, ask 'em where it hurts, you know what I mean? What are you struggling with? How long have you been struggling with it? And then solve those problems, especially when the pendulum you know is starting to swing back around. Hey, can we do this in a more simplified way, why does it have to be so hard? Those are the big opportunities right now. But again, it'll swing this way, and it'll swing back, eventually it'll get to the middle, and then we'll pick a whole other class of problems to, you know, swing back and forth from. >> Well, you know, it actually, it's not surprising to me that you're actually echoing a comment that Steve Harrod made on the program yesterday, saying when he goes and talks to all the companies here, it's, tell me how you make my life better as a company, and that's what we need to focus on. That wave toward simplicity absolutely is something we see, it's something we've been driving toward from Kubernetes, but an area that you're spending some time in talking about at the keynote, Edge computing. And absolutely, we need simplicity for that to be able to come there. What are you seeing in the Edge space, what's real, customers you're talking to, give us a little bit of forward-looking as where you see that whole space going. >> Yeah, so, I mean, for me, Edge and IoT, you can define it a lot of different ways, but even for enterprise companies that are here, it's, hey, do you deploy a piece of software out into the field, or a hardware/software combination? So, Bose headsets, Peloton bikes, whatever, that's kind of an industrial IoT type of thing. I see a lot of people wanting to drag what they think works in Cloud out to the Edge. Kubernetes works here, we're going to drag it out here. We're just going to slim it up a little bit and package it. I don't know if that's the right answer. What I think we need to think about is how do we get data and compute, compute meaning processing of that data, securely in a trusted fashion out to the Edge, however that works? It doesn't necessarily mean we have to have all the same pieces, but you have to say, I want to push an update and I want it to go over the air so to speak to the Edge, I want to be able to trust that it's doing the right thing. And so I think there's a massive amount of opportunity around that, and in how do you move all those pieces around. And what we're trying to do at Synadia is encompassing both, right? So we started with the secure by default, trusting in the beginning, and then if we say, hey, it's just messages, and in the keynote, I talked a little bit about our excitement around web assembly. But where we get excited about it is, we give you a drop-dead easy system and say, I want to digitally sign that web assembly for use in this certain situation at the Edge. And then that shovels it out there, and the system looks at it, verifies that it was signed by John, and says, yep, I can run this now. And so we're looking very heavily at those types of opportunities. We don't care how the things are deployed per se, but I would say that I think as you get further out, I think you're going to see more common denominators around web assembly, secure and signed web assemblies, than on how we actually deploy them. So you're going to see lighter weight things, not to say that Kubernetes might not have relevance out there, but I don't think it's needed to get to where we want. We need that trust factor, ubiquitous, communications to really kind of light that field up. The other one at least that we feel we need to meet the customer where they're at, is most of the IoT type devices are MQTT. And so we talked also that in Q1, we're going to allow native MQTT apps to connect directly into a NATS server and the NGS ecosystem, meaning you get the best of both worlds as well. Then an Edge router's running a NATS server, could be a raspberry pie, thousands of devices all connecting in, we think that connectivity and trust will light up a lot of opportunities. >> All right, well, Derek, always a pleasure to catch up with you, thanks so much for the updates. >> Thank you guys, I really appreciate it. >> All right. John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with lots more coverage here at Kubecon CloudNativeCon, thanks for watching theCUBE.