foreign welcome back to re invent 2022 we're wrapping up four days well one evening and three solid days wall-to-wall of cube coverage I'm Dave vellante John furrier's birthday is today he's on a plane to London to go see his nephew get married his his great Sister Janet awesome family the furriers uh spanning the globe and uh and John I know you wanted to be here you're watching in Newark or you were waiting to uh to get in the plane so all the best to you happy birthday one year the Amazon PR people brought a cake out to celebrate John's birthday because he's always here at AWS re invented his birthday so I'm really pleased to have two really special guests uh former Cube host Cube Alum great wikibon contributor Stu miniman now with red hat still good to see you again great to be here Dave yeah I was here for that cake uh the twitterverse uh was uh really helping to celebrate John's birthday today and uh you know always great to be here with you and then with this you know Awesome event this week and friend of the cube of many time Cube often Cube contributor as here's a cube analyst this week as his own consultancy sarbj johal great to see you thanks for coming on good to see you Dave uh great to see you stu I'm always happy to participate in these discussions and um I enjoy the discussion every time so this is kind of cool because you know usually the last day is a getaway day and this is a getaway day but this place is still packed I mean it's I mean yeah it's definitely lighter you can at least walk and not get slammed but I subjit I'm going to start with you I I wanted to have you as the the tail end here because cause you participated in the analyst sessions you've been watching this event from from the first moment and now you've got four days of the Kool-Aid injection but you're also talking to customers developers Partners the ecosystem where do you want to go what's your big takeaways I think big takeaways that Amazon sort of innovation machine is chugging along they are I was listening to some of the accessions and when I was back to my room at nine so they're filling the holes in some areas but in some areas they're moving forward there's a lot to fix still it doesn't seem like that it seems like we are done with the cloud or The Innovation is done now we are building at the millisecond level so where do you go next there's a lot of room to grow on the storage side on the network side uh the improvements we need and and also making sure that the software which is you know which fits the hardware like there's a specialized software um sorry specialized hardware for certain software you know so there was a lot of talk around that and I attended some of those sessions where I asked the questions around like we have a specialized database for each kind of workload specialized processes processors for each kind of workload yeah the graviton section and actually the the one interesting before I forget that the arbitration was I asked that like why there are so many so many databases and IRS for the egress costs and all that stuff can you are you guys thinking about reducing that you know um the answer was no egress cost is not a big big sort of uh um show stopper for many of the customers but but the from all that sort of little discussion with with the folks sitting who build these products over there was that the plethora of choice is given to the customers to to make them feel that there's no vendor lock-in so if you are using some open source you know um soft software it can be on the you know platform side or can be database side you have database site you have that option at AWS so this is a lot there because I always thought that that AWS is the mother of all lock-ins but it's got an ecosystem and we're going to talk about exactly we'll talk about Stu what's working within AWS when you talk to customers and where are the challenges yeah I I got a comment on open source Dave of course there because I mean look we criticized to Amazon for years about their lack of contribution they've gotten better they're doing more in open source but is Amazon the mother of all lock-ins many times absolutely there's certain people inside Amazon I'm saying you know many of us talk Cloud native they're like well let's do Amazon native which means you're like full stack is things from Amazon and do things the way that we want to do things and you know I talk to a lot of customers they use more than one Cloud Dave and therefore certain things absolutely I want to Leverage The Innovation that Amazon has brought I do think we're past building all the main building blocks in many ways we are like in day two yes Amazon is fanatically customer focused and will always stay that way but you know there wasn't anything that jumped out at me last year or this year that was like Wow new category whole new way of thinking about something we're in a vocals last year Dave said you know we have over 200 services and if we listen to you the customer we'd have over two thousand his session this week actually got some great buzz from my friends in the serverless ecosystem they love some of the things tying together we're using data the next flywheel that we're going to see for the next 10 years Amazon's at the center of the cloud ecosystem in the IT world so you know there's a lot of good things here and to your point Dave the ecosystem one of the things I always look at is you know was there a booth that they're all going to be crying in their beer after Amazon made an announcement there was not a tech vendor that I saw this week that was like oh gosh there was an announcement and all of a sudden our business is gone where I did hear some rumbling is Amazon might be the next GSI to really move forward and we've seen all the gsis pushing really deep into supporting Cloud bringing workloads to the cloud and there's a little bit of rumbling as to that balance between what Amazon will do and their uh their go to market so a couple things so I think I think we all agree that a lot of the the announcements here today were taping seams right I call it and as it relates to the mother of all lock-in the reason why I say that it's it's obviously very much a pejorative compare Oracle company you know really well with Amazon's lock-in for Amazon's lock-in is about bringing this ecosystem together so that you actually have Choice Within the the house so you don't have to leave you know there's a there's a lot to eat at the table yeah you look at oracle's ecosystem it's like yeah you know oracle is oracle's ecosystem so so that is how I think they do lock in customers by incenting them not to leave because there's so much Choice Dave I agree with you a thousand I mean I'm here I'm a I'm a good partner of AWS and all of the partners here want to be successful with Amazon and Amazon is open to that it's not our way or get out which Oracle tries how much do you extract from the overall I.T budget you know are you a YouTube where you give the people that help you create a large sum of the money YouTube hasn't been all that profitable Amazon I think is doing a good balance of the ecosystem makes money you know we used to talk Dave about you know how much dollars does VMware make versus there um I think you know Amazon is a much bigger you know VMware 2.0 we used to think talk about all the time that VMware for every dollar spent on VMware licenses 15 or or 12 or 20 were spent in the ecosystem I would think the ratio is even higher here sarbji and an Oracle I would say it's I don't know yeah actually 1 to 0.5 maybe I don't know but I want to pick on your discussion about the the ecosystem the the partner ecosystem is so it's it's robust strong because it's wider I was I was not saying that there's no lock-in with with Amazon right AWS there's lock-in there's lock-in with everything there's lock-in with open source as well but but the point is that they're they're the the circle is so big you don't feel like locked in but they're playing smart as well they're bringing in the software the the platforms from the open source they're picking up those packages and saying we'll bring it in and cater that to you through AWS make it better perform better and also throw in their custom chips on top of that hey this MySQL runs better here so like what do you do I said oh Oracle because it's oracle's product if you will right so they are I think think they're filing or not slenders from their go to market strategy from their engineering and they listen to they're listening to customers like very closely and that has sort of side effects as well listening to customers creates a sprawl of services they have so many services and I criticized them last year for calling everything a new service I said don't call it a new service it's a feature of a existing service sure a lot of features a lot of features this is egress our egress costs a real problem or is it just the the on-prem guys picking at the the scab I mean what do you hear from customers so I mean Dave you know I I look at what Corey Quinn talks about all the time and Amazon charges on that are more expensive than any other Cloud the cloud providers and partly because Amazon is you know probably not a word they'd use they are dominant when it comes to the infrastructure space and therefore they do want to make it a little bit harder to do that they can get away with it um because um yeah you know we've seen some of the cloud providers have special Partnerships where you can actually you know leave and you're not going to be charged and Amazon they've been a little bit more flexible but absolutely I've heard customers say that they wish some good tunning and tongue-in-cheek stuff what else you got we lay it on us so do our players okay this year I think the focus was on the upside it's shifting gradually this was more focused on offside there were less talk of of developers from the main stage from from all sort of quadrants if you will from all Keynotes right so even Werner this morning he had a little bit for he was talking about he he was talking he he's job is to Rally up the builders right yeah so he talks about the go build right AWS pipes I thought was kind of cool then I said like I'm making glue easier I thought that was good you know I know some folks don't use that I I couldn't attend the whole session but but I heard in between right so it is really adopt or die you know I am Cloud Pro for last you know 10 years and I think it's the best model for a technology consumption right um because of economies of scale but more importantly because of division of labor because of specialization because you can't afford to hire the best security people the best you know the arm chip designers uh you can't you know there's one actually I came up with a bumper sticker you guys talked about bumper sticker I came up with that like last couple of weeks The Innovation favorite scale they have scale they have Innovation so that's where the Innovation is and it's it's not there again they actually say the market sets the price Market you as a customer don't set the price the vendor doesn't set the price Market sets the price so if somebody's complaining about their margins or egress and all that I think that's BS um yeah I I have a few more notes on the the partner if you you concur yeah Dave you know with just coming back to some of this commentary about like can Amazon actually enable something we used to call like Community clouds uh your companies like you know Goldman and NASDAQ and the like where Industries will actually be able to share data uh and you know expand the usage and you know Amazon's going to help drive that API economy forward some so it's good to see those things because you know we all know you know all of us are smarter than just any uh single company together so again some of that's open source but some of that is you know I think Amazon is is you know allowing Innovation to thrive I think the word you're looking for is super cloud there well yeah I mean it it's uh Dave if you want to go there with the super cloud because you know there's a metaphor for exactly what you described NASDAQ Goldman Sachs we you know and and you know a number of other companies that are few weeks at the Berkeley Sky Computing paper yeah you know that's a former supercloud Dave Linthicum calls it metacloud I'm not really careful I mean you know I go back to the the challenge we've been you know working at for a decade is the distributed architecture you know if you talk about AI architectures you know what lives in the cloud what lives at the edge where do we train things where do we do inferences um locations should matter a lot less Amazon you know I I didn't hear a lot about it this show but when they came out with like local zones and oh my gosh out you know all the things that Amazon is building to push out to the edge and also enabling that technology and software and the partner ecosystem helps expand that and Pull It in it's no longer you know Dave it was Hotel California all of the data eventually is going to end up in the public cloud and lock it in it's like I don't think that's going to be the case we know that there will be so much data out at the edge Amazon absolutely is super important um there some of those examples we're giving it's not necessarily multi-cloud but there's collaboration happening like in the healthcare world you know universities and hospitals can all share what they're doing uh regardless of you know where they live well Stephen Armstrong in the analyst session did say that you know we're going to talk about multi-cloud we're not going to lead with it necessarily but we are going to actually talk about it and that's different to your points too than in the fullness of time all the data will be in the cloud that's a new narrative but go ahead yeah actually Amazon is a leader in the cloud so if they push the cloud even if they don't say AWS or Amazon with it they benefit from it right and and the narrative is that way there's the proof is there right so again Innovation favorite scale there are chips which are being made for high scale their software being tweaked for high scale you as a Bank of America or for the Chrysler as a typical Enterprise you cannot afford to do those things in-house what cloud providers can I'm not saying just AWS Google cloud is there Azure guys are there and few others who are behind them and and you guys are there as well so IBM has IBM by the way congratulations to your red hat I know but IBM won the award um right you know very good partner and yeah but yeah people are dragging their feet people usually do on the change and they are in denial denial they they drag their feet and they came in IBM director feed the cave Den Dell drag their feed the cave in yeah you mean by Dragon vs cloud deniers cloud deniers right so server Huggers I call them but they they actually are sitting in Amazon Cloud Marketplace everybody is buying stuff from there the marketplace is the new model OKAY Amazon created the marketplace for b2c they are leading the marketplace of B2B as well on the technology side and other people are copying it so there are multiple marketplaces now so now actually it's like if you're in in a mobile app development there are two main platforms Android and Apple you first write the application for Apple right then for Android hex same here as a technology provider as and I I and and I actually you put your stuff to AWS first then you go anywhere else yeah they are later yeah the Enterprise app store is what we've wanted for a long time the question is is Amazon alone the Enterprise app store or are they partner of a of a larger portfolio because there's a lot of SAS companies out there uh that that play into yeah what we need well and this is what you're talking about the future but I just want to make a point about the past you talking about dragging their feet because the Cube's been following this and Stu you remember this in 2013 IBM actually you know got in a big fight with with Amazon over the CIA deal you know and it all became public judge wheeler eviscerated you know IBM and it ended up IBM ended up buying you know soft layer and then we know what happened there and it Joe Tucci thought the cloud was Mosey right so it's just amazing to see we have booksellers you know VMware called them books I wasn't not all of them are like talking about how great Partnerships they are it's amazing like you said sub GC and IBM uh with the the GSI you know Partnership of the year but what you guys were just talking about was the future and that's what I wanted to get to is because you know Amazon's been leading the way I I was listening to Werner this morning and that just reminded me of back in the days when we used to listen to IBM educate us give us a master class on system design and decoupled systems and and IO and everything else now Amazon is you know the master educator and it got me thinking how long will that last you know will they go the way of you know the other you know incumbents will they be disrupted or will they you know keep innovating maybe it's going to take 10 or 20 years I don't know yeah I mean Dave you actually you did some research I believe it was a year or so ago yeah but what will stop Amazon and the one thing that worries me a little bit um is the two Pizza teams when you have over 202 Pizza teams the amount of things that each one of those groups needs to take care of was more than any human could take care of people burn out they run out of people how many amazonians only last two or three years and then leave because it is tough I bumped into plenty of friends of mine that have been you know six ten years at Amazon and love it but it is a tough culture and they are driving werner's keynote I thought did look to from a product standpoint you could say tape over some of the seams some of those solutions to bring Beyond just a single product and bring them together and leverage data so there are some signs that they might be able to get past some of those limitations but I still worry structurally culturally there could be some challenges for Amazon to keep the momentum going especially with the global economic impact that we are likely to see in the next year bring us home I think the future side like we could talk about the vendors all day right to serve the community out there I think we should talk about how what's the future of technology consumption from the consumer side so from the supplier side just a quick note I think the only danger AWS has has that that you know Fred's going after them you know too big you know like we will break you up and that can cause some disruption there other than that I think they they have some more steam to go for a few more years at least before we start thinking about like oh this thing is falling apart or anything like that so they have a lot more they have momentum and it's continuing so okay from the I think game is on retail by the way is going to get disrupted before AWS yeah go ahead from the buyer's side I think um the the future of the sort of Technology consumption is based on the paper uh use and they actually are turning all their services to uh they are sort of becoming serverless behind the scenes right all analytics service they had one service left they they did that this year so every service is serverless so that means you pay exactly for the amount you use the compute the iops the the storage so all these three layers of course Network we talked about the egress stuff and that's a problem there because of the network design mainly because Google has a flatter design and they have lower cost so so they are actually squeezing the their their designing this their services in a way that you don't waste any resources as a buyer so for example very simple example when early earlier In This Cloud you will get a VM right in Cloud that's how we started so and you can get 20 use 20 percent of the VM 80 is getting wasted that's not happening now that that has been reduced to the most extent so now your VM grows as you grow the usage and if you go higher than the tier you picked they will charge you otherwise they will not charge you extra so that's why there's still a lot of instances like many different types you have to pick one I think the future is that those instances will go away the the instance will be formed for you on the fly so that is the future serverless all right give us bumper sticker Stu and then Serb G I'll give you my quick one and then we'll wrap yeah so just Dave to play off of sharp G and to wrap it up you actually wrote about it on your preview post for here uh serverless we're talking about how developers think about things um and you know Amazon in many ways you know is the new default server uh you know for the cloud um and containerization fits into the whole serverless Paradigm uh it's the space that I live in uh you know every day here and you know I was happy to see the last few years serverless and containers there's a blurring a line and you know subject we're still going to see VMS for a long time yeah yeah we will see that so give us give us your book Instagram my number six is innovation favorite scale that's my bumper sticker and and Amazon has that but also I I want everybody else to like the viewers to take a look at the the Google Cloud as well as well as IBM with others like maybe you have a better price to Performance there for certain workloads and by the way one vendor cannot do it alone we know that for sure the market is so big there's a lot of room for uh Red Hats of the world and and and Microsoft's the world to innovate so keep an eye on them they we need the competition actually and that's why competition Will Keep Us to a place where Market sets the price one vendor doesn't so the only only danger is if if AWS is a monopoly then I will be worried I think ecosystems are the Hallmark of a great Cloud company and Amazon's got the the biggest and baddest ecosystem and I think the other thing to watch for is Industries building on top of the cloud you mentioned the Goldman Sachs NASDAQ Capital One and Warner media these all these industries are building their own clouds and that's where the real money is going to be made in the latter half of the 2020s all right we're a wrap this is Dave Valente I want to first of all thank thanks to our great sponsors AWS for for having us here this is our 10th year at the cube AMD you know sponsoring as well the the the cube here Accenture sponsor to third set upstairs upstairs on the fifth floor all the ecosystem partners that came on the cube this week and supported our mission for free content our content is always free we try to give more to the community and we we take back so go to thecube.net and you'll see all these videos go to siliconangle com for all the news wikibon.com I publish weekly a breaking analysis series I want to thank our amazing crew here you guys we have probably 30 35 people unbelievable our awesome last session John Walls uh Paul Gillen Lisa Martin Savannah Peterson John Furrier who's on a plane we appreciate Andrew and Leonard in our ear and all of our our crew Palo Alto Boston and across the country thank you so much really appreciate it all right we are a wrap AWS re invent 2022 we'll see you in two weeks we'll see you two weeks at Palo Alto ignite back here in Vegas thanks for watching thecube the leader in Enterprise and emerging Tech coverage [Music]

(techno music intro) >> Welcome back to theCube's coverage of SuperComputing Conference 2022. We are here at day three covering the amazing events that are occurring here. I'm Dave Nicholson, with my co-host Paul Gillin. How's it goin', Paul? >> Fine, Dave. Winding down here, but still plenty of action. >> Interesting stuff. We got a full day of coverage, and we're having really, really interesting conversations. We sort of wrapped things up at Supercomputing 22 here in Dallas. I've got two very special guests with me, Scott from Intel and David from Dell, to talk about yeah supercomputing, but guess what? We've got some really cool stuff coming up after this whole thing wraps. So not all of the holiday gifts have been unwrapped yet, kids. Welcome gentlemen. >> Thanks so much for having us. >> Thanks for having us. >> So, let's start with you, David. First of all, explain the relationship in general between Dell and Intel. >> Sure, so obviously Intel's been an outstanding partner. We built some great solutions over the years. I think the market reflects that. Our customers tell us that. The feedback's strong. The products you see out here this week at Supercompute, you know, put that on display for everybody to see. And then as we think about AI in machine learning, there's so many different directions we need to go to help our customers deliver AI outcomes. Right, so we recognize that AI has kind of spread outside of just the confines of everything we've seen here this week. And now we've got really accessible AI use cases that we can explain to friends and family. We can talk about going into retail environments and how AI is being used to track inventory, to monitor traffic, et cetera. But really what that means to us as a bunch of hardware folks is we have to deliver the right platforms and the right designs for a variety of environments, both inside and outside the data center. And so if you look at our portfolio, we have some great products here this week, but we also have other platforms, like the XR4000, our shortest rack server ever that's designed to go into Edge environments, but is also built for those Edge AI use cases that supports GPUs. It supports AI on the CPU as well. And so there's a lot of really compelling platforms that we're starting to talk about, have already been talking about, and it's going to really enable our customers to deliver AI in a variety of ways. >> You mentioned AI on the CPU. Maybe this is a question for Scott. What does that mean, AI on the CPU? >> Well, as David was talking about, we're just seeing this explosion of different use cases. And some of those on the Edge, some of them in the Cloud, some of them on Prem. But within those individual deployments, there's often different ways that you can do AI, whether that's training or inference. And what we're seeing is a lot of times the memory locality matters quite a bit. You don't want to have to pay necessarily a cost going across the PCI express bus, especially with some of our newer products like the CPU Max series, where you can have a huge about of high bandwidth memory just sitting right on the CPU. Things that traditionally would have been accelerator only, can now live on a CPU, and that includes both on the inference side. We're seeing some really great things with images, where you might have a giant medical image that you need to be able to do extremely high resolution inference on or even text, where you might have a huge corpus of extremely sparse text that you need to be able to randomly sample very efficiently. >> So how are these needs influencing the evolution of Intel CPU architectures? >> So, we're talking to our customers. We're talking to our partners. This presents both an opportunity, but also a challenge with all of these different places that you can put these great products, as well as applications. And so we're very thoughtfully trying to go to the market, see where their needs are, and then meet those needs. This industry obviously has a lot of great players in it, and it's no longer the case that if you build it, they will come. So what we're doing is we're finding where are those choke points, how can we have that biggest difference? Sometimes there's generational leaps, and I know David can speak to this, can be huge from one system to the next just because everything's accelerated on the software side, the hardware side, and the platforms themselves. >> That's right, and we're really excited about that leap. If you take what Scott just described, we've been writing white papers, our team with Scott's team, we've been talking about those types of use cases using doing large image analysis and leveraging system memory, leveraging the CPU to do that, we've been talking about that for several generations now. Right, going back to Cascade Lake, going back to what we would call 14th generation power Edge. And so now as we prepare and continue to unveil, kind of we're in launch season, right, you and I were talking about how we're in launch season. As we continue to unveil and launch more products, the performance improvements are just going to be outstanding and we'll continue that evolution that Scott described. >> Yeah, I'd like to applaud Dell just for a moment for its restraint. Because I know you could've come in and taken all of the space in the convention center to show everything that you do. >> Would have loved to. >> In the HPC space. Now, worst kept secrets on earth at this point. Vying for number one place is the fact that there is a new Mission Impossible movie coming. And there's also new stuff coming from Intel. I know, I think allegedly we're getting close. What can you share with us on that front? And I appreciate it if you can't share a ton of specifics, but where are we going? David just alluded to it. >> Yeah, as David talked about, we've been working on some of these things for many years. And it's just, this momentum is continuing to build, both in respect to some of our hardware investments. We've unveiled some things both here, both on the CPU side and the accelerator side, but also on the software side. OneAPI is gathering more and more traction and the ecosystem is continuing to blossom. Some of our AI and HPC workloads, and the combination thereof, are becoming more and more viable, as well as displacing traditional approaches to some of these problems. And it's this type of thing where it's not linear. It all builds on itself. And we've seen some of these investments that we've made for a better half of a decade starting to bear fruit, but that's, it's not just a one time thing. It's just going to continue to roll out, and we're going to be seeing more and more of this. >> So I want to follow up on something that you mentioned. I don't know if you've ever heard that the Charlie Brown saying that sometimes the most discouraging thing can be to have immense potential. Because between Dell and Intel, you offer so many different versions of things from a fit for function perspective. As a practical matter, how do you work with customers, and maybe this is a question for you, David. How do you work with customers to figure out what the right fit is? >> I'll give you a great example. Just this week, customer conversations, and we can put it in terms of kilowatts to rack, right. How many kilowatts are you delivering at a rack level inside your data center? I've had an answer anywhere from five all the way up to 90. There's some that have been a bit higher that probably don't want to talk about those cases, kind of customers we're meeting with very privately. But the range is really, really large, right, and there's a variety of environments. Customers might be ready for liquid today. They may not be ready for it. They may want to maximize air cooling. Those are the conversations, and then of course it all maps back to the workloads they wish to enable. AI is an extremely overloaded term. We don't have enough time to talk about all the different things that tuck under that umbrella, but the workloads and the outcomes they wish to enable, we have the right solutions. And then we take it a step further by considering where they are today, where they need to go. And I just love that five to 90 example of not every customer has an identical cookie cutter environment, so we've got to have the right platforms, the right solutions, for the right workloads, for the right environments. >> So, I like to dive in on this power issue, to give people who are watching an idea. Because we say five kilowatts, 90 kilowatts, people are like, oh wow, hmm, what does that mean? 90 kilowatts is more than 100 horse power if you want to translate it over. It's a massive amount of power, so if you think of EV terms. You know, five kilowatts is about a hairdryer's around a kilowatt, 1,000 watts, right. But the point is, 90 kilowatts in a rack, that's insane. That's absolutely insane. The heat that that generates has got to be insane, and so it's important. >> Several houses in the size of a closet. >> Exactly, exactly. Yeah, in a rack I explain to people, you know, it's like a refrigerator. But, so in the arena of thermals, I mean is that something during the development of next gen architectures, is that something that's been taken into consideration? Or is it just a race to die size? >> Well, you definitely have to take thermals into account, as well as just the power of consumption themselves. I mean, people are looking at their total cost of ownership. They're looking at sustainability. And at the end of the day, they need to solve a problem. There's many paths up that mountain, and it's about choosing that right path. We've talked about this before, having extremely thoughtful partners, we're just not going to common-torily try every single solution. We're going to try to find the ones that fit that right mold for that customer. And we're seeing more and more people, excuse me, care about this, more and more people wanting to say, how do I do this in the most sustainable way? How do I do this in the most reliable way, given maybe different fluctuations in their power consumption or their power pricing? We're developing more software tools and obviously partnering with great partners to make sure we do this in the most thoughtful way possible. >> Intel put a lot of, made a big investment by buying Habana Labs for its acceleration technology. They're based in Israel. You're based on the west coast. How are you coordinating with them? How will the Habana technology work its way into more mainstream Intel products? And how would Dell integrate those into your servers? >> Good question. I guess I can kick this off. So Habana is part of the Intel family now. They've been integrated in. It's been a great journey with them, as some of their products have launched on AWS, and they've had some very good wins on MLPerf and things like that. I think it's about finding the right tool for the job, right. Not every problem is a nail, so you need more than just a hammer. And so we have the Xeon series, which is incredibly flexible, can do so many different things. It's what we've come to know and love. On the other end of the spectrum, we obviously have some of these more deep learning focused accelerators. And if that's your problem, then you can solve that problem in incredibly efficient ways. The accelerators themselves are somewhere in the middle, so you get that kind of Goldilocks zone of flexibility and power. And depending on your use case, depending on what you know your workloads are going to be day in and day out, one of these solutions might work better for you. A combination might work better for you. Hybrid compute starts to become really interesting. Maybe you have something that you need 24/7, but then you only need a burst to certain things. There's a lot of different options out there. >> The portfolio approach. >> Exactly. >> And then what I love about the work that Scott's team is doing, customers have told us this week in our meetings, they do not want to spend developer's time porting code from one stack to the next. They want that flexibility of choice. Everyone does. We want it in our lives, in our every day lives. They need that flexibility of choice, but they also, there's an opportunity cost when their developers have to choose to port some code over from one stack to another or spend time improving algorithms and doing things that actually generate, you know, meaningful outcomes for their business or their research. And so if they are, you know, desperately searching I would say for that solution and for help in that area, and that's what we're working to enable soon. >> And this is what I love about oneAPI, our software stack, it's open first, heterogeneous first. You can take SYCL code, it can run on competitor's hardware. It can run on Intel hardware. It's one of these things that you have to believe long term, the future is open. Wall gardens, the walls eventually crumble. And we're just trying to continue to invest in that ecosystem to make sure that the in-developer at the end of the day really gets what they need to do, which is solving their business problem, not tinkering with our drivers. >> Yeah, I actually saw an interesting announcement that I hadn't been tracking. I hadn't been tracking this area. Chiplets, and the idea of an open standard where competitors of Intel from a silicone perspective can have their chips integrated via a universal standard. And basically you had the top three silicone vendors saying, yeah, absolutely, let's work together. Cats and dogs. >> Exactly, but at the end of the day, it's whatever menagerie solves the problem. >> Right, right, exactly. And of course Dell can solve it from any angle. >> Yeah, we need strong partners to build the platforms to actually do it. At the end of the day, silicone without software is just sand. Sand with silicone is poorly written prose. But without an actual platform to put it on, it's nothing, it's a box that sits in the corner. >> David, you mentioned that 90% of power age servers now support GPUs. So how is this high-performing, the growth of high performance computing, the demand, influencing the evolution of your server architecture? >> Great question, a couple of ways. You know, I would say 90% of our platforms support GPUs. 100% of our platforms support AI use cases. And it goes back to the CPU compute stack. As we look at how we deliver different form factors for customers, we go back to that range, I said that power range this week of how do we enable the right air coolant solutions? How do we deliver the right liquid cooling solutions, so that wherever the customer is in their environment, and whatever footprint they have, we're ready to meet it? That's something you'll see as we go into kind of the second half of launch season and continue rolling out products. You're going to see some very compelling solutions, not just in air cooling, but liquid cooling as well. >> You want to be more specific? >> We can't unveil everything at Supercompute. We have a lot of great stuff coming up here in the next few months, so. >> It's kind of like being at a great restaurant when they offer you dessert, and you're like yeah, dessert would be great, but I just can't take anymore. >> It's a multi course meal. >> At this point. Well, as we wrap, I've got one more question for each of you. Same question for each of you. When you think about high performance computing, super computing, all of the things that you're doing in your partnership, driving artificial intelligence, at that tip of the spear, what kind of insights are you looking forward to us being able to gain from this technology? In other words, what cool thing, what do you think is cool out there from an AI perspective? What problem do you think we can solve in the near future? What problems would you like to solve? What gets you out of bed in the morning? Cause it's not the little, it's not the bits and the bobs and the speeds and the feats, it's what we're going to do with them, so what do you think, David? >> I'll give you an example. And I think, I saw some of my colleagues talk about this earlier in the week, but for me what we could do in the past two years to unable our customers in a quarantine pandemic environment, we were delivering platforms and solutions to help them do their jobs, help them carry on in their lives. And that's just one example, and if I were to map that forward, it's about enabling that human progress. And it's, you know, you ask a 20 year version of me 20 years ago, you know, if you could imagine some of these things, I don't know what kind of answer you would get. And so mapping forward next decade, next two decades, I can go back to that example of hey, we did great things in the past couple of years to enable our customers. Just imagine what we're going to be able to do going forward to enable that human progress. You know, there's great use cases, there's great image analysis. We talked about some. The images that Scott was referring to had to do with taking CAT scan images and being able to scan them for tumors and other things in the healthcare industry. That is stuff that feels good when you get out of bed in the morning, to know that you're enabling that type of progress. >> Scott, quick thoughts? >> Yeah, and I'll echo that. It's not one specific use case, but it's really this wave front of all of these use cases, from the very micro of developing the next drug to finding the next battery technology, all the way up to the macro of trying to have an impact on climate change or even the origins of the universe itself. All of these fields are seeing these massive gains, both from the software, the hardware, the platforms that we're bringing to bear to these problems. And at the end of the day, humanity is going to be fundamentally transformed by the computation that we're launching and working on today. >> Fantastic, fantastic. Thank you, gentlemen. You heard it hear first, Intel and Dell just committed to solving the secrets of the universe by New Years Eve 2023. >> Well, next Supercompute, let's give us a little time. >> The next Supercompute Convention. >> Yeah, next year. >> Yeah, SC 2023, we'll come back and see what problems have been solved. You heard it hear first on theCube, folks. By SC 23, Dell and Intel are going to reveal the secrets of the universe. From here, at SC 22, I'd like to thank you for joining our conversation. I'm Dave Nicholson, with my co-host Paul Gillin. Stay tuned to theCube's coverage of Supercomputing Conference 22. We'll be back after a short break. (techno music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase. This is season two, episode four of the ongoing series covering the exciting hot startups from the AWS ecosystem. Here we're talking about cybersecurity in this episode. I'm your host, John Furrier here we're excited to have CUBE alumni who's back Snehal Antani who's the CEO and co-founder of Horizon3.ai talking about exploitable weaknesses and vulnerabilities with autonomous pen testing. Snehal, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming back. >> Likewise, John. I think it's been about five years since you and I were on the stage together. And I've missed it, but I'm glad to see you again. >> Well, before we get into the showcase about your new startup, that's extremely successful, amazing margins, great product. You have a unique journey. We talked about this prior to you doing the journey, but you have a great story. You left the startup world to go into the startup, like world of self defense, public defense, NSA. What group did you go to in the public sector became a private partner. >> My background, I'm a software engineer by education and trade. I started my career at IBM. I was a CIO at GE Capital, and I think we met once when I was there and I became the CTO of Splunk. And we spent a lot of time together when I was at Splunk. And at the end of 2017, I decided to take a break from industry and really kind of solve problems that I cared deeply about and solve problems that mattered. So I left industry and joined the US Special Operations Community and spent about four years in US Special Operations, where I grew more personally and professionally than in anything I'd ever done in my career. And exited that time, met my co-founder in special ops. And then as he retired from the air force, we started Horizon3. >> So there's really, I want to bring that up one, 'cause it's fascinating that not a lot of people in Silicon Valley and tech would do that. So thanks for the service. And I know everyone who's out there in the public sector knows that this is a really important time for the tactical edge in our military, a lot of things going on around the world. So thanks for the service and a great journey. But there's a storyline with the company you're running now that you started. I know you get the jacket on there. I noticed get a little military vibe to it. Cybersecurity, I mean, every company's on their own now. They have to build their own militia. There is no government supporting companies anymore. There's no militia. No one's on the shores of our country defending the citizens and the companies, they got to offend for themselves. So every company has to have their own military. >> In many ways, you don't see anti-aircraft rocket launchers on top of the JP Morgan building in New York City because they rely on the government for air defense. But in cyber it's very different. Every company is on their own to defend for themselves. And what's interesting is this blend. If you look at the Ukraine, Russia war, as an example, a thousand companies have decided to withdraw from the Russian economy and those thousand companies we should expect to be in the ire of the Russian government and their proxies at some point. And so it's not just those companies, but their suppliers, their distributors. And it's no longer about cyber attack for extortion through ransomware, but rather cyber attack for punishment and retaliation for leaving. Those companies are on their own to defend themselves. There's no government that is dedicated to supporting them. So yeah, the reality is that cybersecurity, it's the burden of the organization. And also your attack surface has expanded to not just be your footprint, but if an adversary wants to punish you for leaving their economy, they can get, if you're in agriculture, they could disrupt your ability to farm or they could get all your fruit to spoil at the border 'cause they disrupted your distributors and so on. So I think the entire world is going to change over the next 18 to 24 months. And I think this idea of cybersecurity is going to become truly a national problem and a problem that breaks down any corporate barriers that we see in previously. >> What are some of the things that inspired you to start this company? And I loved your approach of thinking about the customer, your customer, as defending themselves in context to threats, really leaning into it, being ready and able to defend. Horizon3 has a lot of that kind of military thinking for the good of the company. What's the motivation? Why this company? Why now? What's the value proposition? >> So there's two parts to why the company and why now. The first part was what my observation, when I left industry realm or my military background is watching "Jack Ryan" and "Tropic Thunder" and I didn't come from the military world. And so when I entered the special operations community, step one was to keep my mouth shut, learn, listen, and really observe and understand what made that community so impressive. And obviously the people and it's not about them being fast runners or great shooters or awesome swimmers, but rather there are learn-it-alls that can solve any problem as a team under pressure, which is the exact culture you want to have in any startup, early stage companies are learn-it-alls that can solve any problem under pressure as a team. So I had this immediate advantage when we started Horizon3, where a third of Horizon3 employees came from that special operations community. So one is this awesome talent. But the second part that, I remember this quote from a special operations commander that said we use live rounds in training because if we used fake rounds or rubber bullets, everyone would act like metal of honor winners. And the whole idea there is you train like you fight, you build that muscle memory for crisis and response and so on upfront. So when you're in the thick of it, you already know how to react. And this aligns to a pain I had in industry. I had no idea I was secure until the bad guy showed up. I had no idea if I was fixing the right vulnerabilities, logging the right data in Splunk, or if my CrowdStrike EDR platform was configured correctly, I had to wait for the bad guys to show up. I didn't know if my people knew how to respond to an incident. So what I wanted to do was proactively verify my security posture, proactively harden my systems. I needed to do that by continuously pen testing myself or continuously testing my security posture. And there just wasn't any way to do that where an IT admin or a network engineer could in three clicks have the power of a 20 year pen testing expert. And that was really what we set out to do, not build a autonomous pen testing platform for security people, build it so that anybody can quickly test their security posture and then use the output to fix problems that truly matter. >> So the value preposition, if I get this right is, there's a lot of companies out there doing pen tests. And I know I hate pen tests. They're like, cause you do DevOps, it changes you got to do another pen test. So it makes sense to do autonomous pen testing. So congratulations on seeing that that's obvious to that, but a lot of other have consulting tied to it. Which seems like you need to train someone and you guys taking a different approach. >> Yeah, we actually, as a company have zero consulting, zero professional services. And the whole idea is that build a true software as a service offering where an intern, in fact, we've got a video of a nine year old that in three clicks can run pen tests against themselves. And because of that, you can wire pen tests into your DevOps tool chain. You can run multiple pen tests today. In fact, I've got customers running 40, 50 pen tests a month against their organization. And that what that does is completely lowers the barrier of entry for being able to verify your posture. If you have consulting on average, when I was a CIO, it was at least a three month lead time to schedule consultants to show up and then they'd show up, they'd embarrass the security team, they'd make everyone look bad, 'cause they're going to get in, leave behind a report. And that report was almost identical to what they found last year because the older that report, the one the date itself gets stale, the context changes and so on. And then eventually you just don't even bother fixing it. Or if you fix a problem, you don't have the skills to verify that has been fixed. So I think that consulting led model was acceptable when you viewed security as a compliance checkbox, where once a year was sufficient to meet your like PCI requirements. But if you're really operating with a wartime mindset and you actually need to harden and secure your environment, you've got to be running pen test regularly against your organization from different perspectives, inside, outside, from the cloud, from work, from home environments and everything in between. >> So for the CISOs out there, for the CSOs and the CXOs, what's the pitch to them because I see your jacket that says Horizon3 AI, trust but verify. But this trust is, but is canceled out, just as verify. What's the product that you guys are offering the service. Describe what it is and why they should look at it. >> Yeah, sure. So one, when I back when I was the CIO, don't tell me we're secure in PowerPoint. Show me we're secure right now. Show me we're secure again tomorrow. And then show me we're secure again next week because my environment is constantly changing and the adversary always has a vote and they're always evolving. And this whole idea of show me we're secure. Don't trust that your security tools are working, verify that they can detect and respond and stifle an attack and then verify tomorrow, verify next week. That's the big mind shift. Now what we do is-- >> John: How do they respond to that by the way? Like they don't believe you at first or what's the story. >> I think, there's actually a very bifurcated response. There are still a decent chunk of CIOs and CSOs that have a security is a compliance checkbox mindset. So my attitude with them is I'm not going to convince you. You believe it's a checkbox. I'll just wait for you to get breached and sell to your replacement, 'cause you'll get fired. And in the meantime, I spend all my energy with those that actually care about proactively securing and hardening their environments. >> That's true. People do get fired. Can you give an example of what you're saying about this environment being ready, proving that you're secure today, tomorrow and a few weeks out. Give me an example. >> Of, yeah, I'll give you actually a customer example. There was a healthcare organization and they had about 5,000 hosts in their environment and they did everything right. They had Fortinet as their EDR platform. They had user behavior analytics in place that they had purchased and tuned. And when they ran a pen test self-service, our product node zero immediately started to discover every host on the network. It then fingerprinted all those hosts and found it was able to get code execution on three machines. So it got code execution, dumped credentials, laterally maneuvered, and became a domain administrator, which in IT, if an attacker becomes a domain admin, they've got keys to the kingdom. So at first the question was, how did the node zero pen test become domain admin? How'd they get code execution, Fortinet should have detected and stopped it. Well, it turned out Fortinet was misconfigured on three boxes out of 5,000. And these guys had no idea and it's just automation that went wrong and so on. And now they would've only known they had misconfigured their EDR platform on three hosts if the attacker had showed up. The second question though was, why didn't they catch the lateral movement? Which all their marketing brochures say they're supposed to catch. And it turned out that that customer purchased the wrong Fortinet modules. One again, they had no idea. They thought they were doing the right thing. So don't trust just installing your tools is good enough. You've got to exercise and verify them. We've got tons of stories from patches that didn't actually apply to being able to find the AWS admin credentials on a local file system. And then using that to log in and take over the cloud. In fact, I gave this talk at Black Hat on war stories from running 10,000 pen tests. And that's just the reality is, you don't know that these tools and processes are working for you until the bad guys have shown. >> The velocities there. You can accelerate through logs, you know from the days you've been there. This is now the threat. Being, I won't say lazy, but just not careful or just not thinking. >> Well, I'll do an example. We have a lot of customers that are Horizon3 customers and Splunk customers. And what you'll see their behavior is, is they'll have Horizon3 up on one screen. And every single attacker command executed with its timestamp is up on that screen. And then look at Splunk and say, hey, we were able to dump vCenter credentials from VMware products at this time on this host, what did Splunk see or what didn't they see? Why were no logs generated? And it turns out that they had some logging blind spots. So what they'll actually do is run us to almost like stimulate the defensive tools and then see what did the tools catch? What did they miss? What are those blind spots and how do they fix it. >> So your price called node zero. You mentioned that. Is that specifically a suite, a tool, a platform. How do people consume and engage with you guys? >> So the way that we work, the whole product is designed to be self-service. So once again, while we have a sales team, the whole intent is you don't need to have to talk to a sales rep to start using the product, you can log in right now, go to Horizon3.ai, you can run a trial log in with your Google ID, your LinkedIn ID, start running pen test against your home or against your network against this organization right now, without talking to anybody. The whole idea is self-service, run a pen test in three clicks and give you the power of that 20 year pen testing expert. And then what'll happen is node zero will execute and then it'll provide to you a full report of here are all of the different paths or attack paths or sequences where we are able to become an admin in your environment. And then for every attack path, here is the path or the kill chain, the proof of exploitation for every step along the way. Here's exactly what you've got to do to fix it. And then once you've fixed it, here's how you verify that you've truly fixed the problem. And this whole aha moment is run us to find problems. You fix them, rerun us to verify that the problem has been fixed. >> Talk about the company, how many people do you have and get some stats? >> Yeah, so we started writing code in January of 2020, right before the pandemic hit. And then about 10 months later at the end of 2020, we launched the first version of the product. We've been in the market for now about two and a half years total from start of the company till present. We've got 130 employees. We've got more customers than we do employees, which is really cool. And instead our customers shift from running one pen test a year to 40, 50 pen test. >> John: And it's full SaaS. >> The whole product is full SaaS. So no consulting, no pro serve. You run as often as you-- >> Who's downloading, who's buying the product. >> What's amazing is, we have customers in almost every section or sector now. So we're not overly rotated towards like healthcare or financial services. We've got state and local education or K through 12 education, state and local government, a number of healthcare companies, financial services, manufacturing. We've got organizations that large enterprises. >> John: Security's diverse. >> It's very diverse. >> I mean, ransomware must be a big driver. I mean, is that something that you're seeing a lot. >> It is. And the thing about ransomware is, if you peel back the outcome of ransomware, which is extortion, at the end of the day, what ransomware organizations or criminals or APTs will do is they'll find out who all your employees are online. They will then figure out if you've got 7,000 employees, all it takes is one of them to have a bad password. And then attackers are going to credential spray to find that one person with a bad password or whose Netflix password that's on the dark web is also their same password to log in here, 'cause most people reuse. And then from there they're going to most likely in your organization, the domain user, when you log in, like you probably have local admin on your laptop. If you're a windows machine and I've got local admin on your laptop, I'm going to be able to dump credentials, get the admin credentials and then start to laterally maneuver. Attackers don't have to hack in using zero days like you see in the movies, often they're logging in with valid user IDs and passwords that they've found and collected from somewhere else. And then they make that, they maneuver by making a low plus a low equal a high. And the other thing in financial services, we spend all of our time fixing critical vulnerabilities, attackers know that. So they've adapted to finding ways to chain together, low priority vulnerabilities and misconfigurations and dangerous defaults to become admin. So while we've over rotated towards just fixing the highs and the criticals attackers have adapted. And once again they have a vote, they're always evolving their tactics. >> And how do you prevent that from happening? >> So we actually apply those same tactics. Rarely do we actually need a CVE to compromise your environment. We will harvest credentials, just like an attacker. We will find misconfigurations and dangerous defaults, just like an attacker. We will combine those together. We'll make use of exploitable vulnerabilities as appropriate and use that to compromise your environment. So the tactics that, in many ways we've built a digital weapon and the tactics we apply are the exact same tactics that are applied by the adversary. >> So you guys basically simulate hacking. >> We actually do the hacking. Simulate means there's a fakeness to it. >> So you guys do hack. >> We actually compromise. >> Like sneakers the movie, those sneakers movie for the old folks like me. >> And in fact that was my inspiration. I've had this idea for over a decade now, which is I want to be able to look at anything that laptop, this Wi-Fi network, gear in hospital or a truck driving by and know, I can figure out how to gain initial access, rip that environment apart and be able to opponent. >> Okay, Chuck, he's not allowed in the studio anymore. (laughs) No, seriously. Some people are exposed. I mean, some companies don't have anything. But there's always passwords or so most people have that argument. Well, there's nothing to protect here. Not a lot of sensitive data. How do you respond to that? Do you see that being kind of putting the head in the sand or? >> Yeah, it's actually, it's less, there's not sensitive data, but more we've installed or applied multifactor authentication, attackers can't get in now. Well MFA only applies or does not apply to lower level protocols. So I can find a user ID password, log in through SMB, which isn't protected by multifactor authentication and still upon your environment. So unfortunately I think as a security industry, we've become very good at giving a false sense of security to organizations. >> John: Compliance drives that behavior. >> Compliance drives that. And what we need. Back to don't tell me we're secure, show me, we've got to, I think, change that to a trust but verify, but get rid of the trust piece of it, just to verify. >> Okay, we got a lot of CISOs and CSOs watching this showcase, looking at the hot startups, what's the message to the executives there. Do they want to become more leaning in more hawkish if you will, to use the military term on security? I mean, I heard one CISO say, security first then compliance 'cause compliance can make you complacent and then you're unsecure at that point. >> I actually say that. I agree. One definitely security is different and more important than being compliant. I think there's another emerging concept, which is I'd rather be defensible than secure. What I mean by that is security is a point in time state. I am secure right now. I may not be secure tomorrow 'cause something's changed. But if I'm defensible, then what I have is that muscle memory to detect, respondent and stifle an attack. And that's what's more important. Can I detect you? How long did it take me to detect you? Can I stifle you from achieving your objective? How long did it take me to stifle you? What did you use to get in to gain access? How long did that sit in my environment? How long did it take me to fix it? So on and so forth. But I think it's being defensible and being able to rapidly adapt to changing tactics by the adversary is more important. >> This is the evolution of how the red line never moved. You got the adversaries in our networks and our banks. Now they hang out and they wait. So everyone thinks they're secure. But when they start getting hacked, they're not really in a position to defend, the alarms go off. Where's the playbook. Team springs into action. I mean, you kind of get the visual there, but this is really the issue being defensible means having your own essentially military for your company. >> Being defensible, I think has two pieces. One is you've got to have this culture and process in place of training like you fight because you want to build that incident response muscle memory ahead of time. You don't want to have to learn how to respond to an incident in the middle of the incident. So that is that proactively verifying your posture and continuous pen testing is critical there. The second part is the actual fundamentals in place so you can detect and stifle as appropriate. And also being able to do that. When you are continuously verifying your posture, you need to verify your entire posture, not just your test systems, which is what most people do. But you have to be able to safely pen test your production systems, your cloud environments, your perimeter. You've got to assume that the bad guys are going to get in, once they're in, what can they do? So don't just say that my perimeter's secure and I'm good to go. It's the soft squishy center that attackers are going to get into. And from there, can you detect them and can you stop them? >> Snehal, take me through the use. You got to be sold on this, I love this topic. Alright, pen test. Is it, what am I buying? Just pen test as a service. You mentioned dark web. Are you actually buying credentials online on behalf of the customer? What is the product? What am I buying if I'm the CISO from Horizon3? What's the service? What's the product, be specific. >> So very specifically and one just principles. The first principle is when I was a buyer, I hated being nickled and dimed buyer vendors, which was, I had to buy 15 different modules in order to achieve an objective. Just give me one line item, make it super easy to buy and don't nickel and dime me. Because I've spent time as a buyer that very much has permeated throughout the company. So there is a single skew from Horizon3. It is an annual subscription based on how big your environment is. And it is inclusive of on-prem internal pen tests, external pen tests, cloud attacks, work from home attacks, our ability to harvest credentials from the dark web and from open source sources. Being able to crack those credentials, compromise. All of that is included as a singles skew. All you get as a CISO is a singles skew, annual subscription, and you can run as many pen tests as you want. Some customers still stick to, maybe one pen test a quarter, but most customers shift when they realize there's no limit, we don't nickel and dime. They can run 10, 20, 30, 40 a month. >> Well, it's not nickel and dime in the sense that, it's more like dollars and hundreds because they know what to expect if it's classic cloud consumption. They kind of know what their environment, can people try it. Let's just say I have a huge environment, I have a cloud, I have an on-premise private cloud. Can I dabble and set parameters around pricing? >> Yes you can. So one is you can dabble and set perimeter around scope, which is like manufacturing does this, do not touch the production line that's on at the moment. We've got a hospital that says every time they run a pen test, any machine that's actually connected to a patient must be excluded. So you can actually set the parameters for what's in scope and what's out of scope up front, most again we're designed to be safe to run against production so you can set the parameters for scope. You can set the parameters for cost if you want. But our recommendation is I'd rather figure out what you can afford and let you test everything in your environment than try to squeeze every penny from you by only making you buy what can afford as a smaller-- >> So the variable ratio, if you will is, how much they spend is the size of their environment and usage. >> Just size of the environment. >> So it could be a big ticket item for a CISO then. >> It could, if you're really large, but for the most part-- >> What's large? >> I mean, if you were Walmart, well, let me back up. What I heard is global 10 companies spend anywhere from 50 to a hundred million dollars a year on security testing. So they're already spending a ton of money, but they're spending it on consultants that show up maybe a couple of times a year. They don't have, humans can't scale to test a million hosts in your environment. And so you're already spending that money, spend a fraction of that and use us and run as much as you want. And that's really what it comes down to. >> John: All right. So what's the response from customers? >> What's really interesting is there are three use cases. The first is that SOC manager that is using us to verify that their security tools are actually working. So their Splunk environment is logging the right data. It's integrating properly with CrowdStrike, it's integrating properly with their active directory services and their password policies. So the SOC manager is using us to verify the effectiveness of their security controls. The second use case is the IT director that is using us to proactively harden their systems. Did they install VMware correctly? Did they install their Cisco gear correctly? Are they patching right? And then the third are for the companies that are lucky to have their own internal pen test and red teams where they use us like a force multiplier. So if you've got 10 people on your red team and you still have a million IPs or hosts in your environment, you still don't have enough people for that coverage. So they'll use us to do recon at scale and attack at scale and let the humans focus on the really juicy hard stuff that humans are successful at. >> Love the product. Again, I'm trying to think about how I engage on the test. Is there pilots? Is there a demo version? >> There's a free trials. So we do 30 day free trials. The output can actually be used to meet your SOC 2 requirements. So in many ways you can just use us to get a free SOC 2 pen test report right now, if you want. Go to the website, log in for a free trial, you can log into your Google ID or your LinkedIn ID, run a pen test against your organization and use that to answer your PCI segmentation test requirements, your SOC 2 requirements, but you will be hooked. You will want to run us more often. And you'll get a Horizon3 tattoo. >> The first hits free as they say in the drug business. >> Yeah. >> I mean, so you're seeing that kind of response then, trial converts. >> It's exactly. In fact, we have a very well defined aha moment, which is you run us to find, you fix, you run us to verify, we have 100% technical win rate when our customers hit a find, fix, verify cycle, then it's about budget and urgency. But 100% technical win rate because of that aha moment, 'cause people realize, holy crap, I don't have to wait six months to verify that my problems have actually been fixed. I can just come in, click, verify, rerun the entire pen test or rerun a very specific part of it on what I just patched my environment. >> Congratulations, great stuff. You're here part of the AWS Startup Showcase. So I have to ask, what's the relationship with AWS, you're on their cloud. What kind of actions going on there? Is there secret sauce on there? What's going on? >> So one is we are AWS customers ourselves, our brains command and control infrastructure. All of our analytics are all running on AWS. It's amazing, when we run a pen test, we are able to use AWS and we'll spin up a virtual private cloud just for that pen test. It's completely ephemeral, it's all Lambda functions and graph analytics and other techniques. When the pen test ends, you can delete, there's a single use Docker container that gets deleted from your environment so you have nothing on-prem to deal with and the entire virtual private cloud tears itself down. So at any given moment, if we're running 50 pen tests or a hundred pen tests, self-service, there's a hundred virtual private clouds being managed in AWS that are spinning up, running and tearing down. It's an absolutely amazing underlying platform for us to make use of. Two is that many customers that have hybrid environments. So they've got a cloud infrastructure, an Office 365 infrastructure and an on-prem infrastructure. We are a single attack platform that can test all of that together. No one else can do it. And so the AWS customers that are especially AWS hybrid customers are the ones that we do really well targeting. >> Got it. And that's awesome. And that's the benefit of cloud? >> Absolutely. And the AWS marketplace. What's absolutely amazing is the competitive advantage being part of the marketplace has for us, because the simple thing is my customers, if they already have dedicated cloud spend, they can use their approved cloud spend to pay for Horizon3 through the marketplace. So you don't have to, if you already have that budget dedicated, you can use that through the marketplace. The other is you've already got the vendor processes in place, you can purchase through your existing AWS account. So what I love about the AWS company is one, the infrastructure we use for our own pen test, two, the marketplace, and then three, the customers that span that hybrid cloud environment. That's right in our strike zone. >> Awesome. Well, congratulations. And thanks for being part of the showcase and I'm sure your product is going to do very, very well. It's very built for what people want. Self-service get in, get the value quickly. >> No agents to install, no consultants to hire. safe to run against production. It's what I wanted. >> Great to see you and congratulations and what a great story. And we're going to keep following you. Thanks for coming on. >> Snehal: Phenomenal. Thank you, John. >> This is the AWS Startup Showcase. I'm John John Furrier, your host. This is season two, episode four on cybersecurity. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

hello and welcome to this special cube conversation i'm dave nicholson and this is part of our continuing coverage of google cloud next 2021 i have two very special guests with me and we are going to talk about the topic of security uh i have sunil potti who is vice president and general manager of google cloud security uh who in a previous life had senior leadership roles at nutanix and citrix along with lior div who is the ceo and co-founder of cyber reason lior was formerly a commander in the much famed unit 8200 uh part of the israeli defense forces uh where he was actually a medal of honor recipient uh very uh honored to have him here this morning sunil and lior welcome to the cube sunil welcome back to the cube yeah great to be here david and and to be in the presence of a medal of honor recipient by the way a good friend of mine leor so be here well good to have both of you here so uh i'm the kind of person who likes my dessert before my uh before my entree so why don't we just get right to it you're the two of you are here to announce something very very significant uh in the field of security uh sunil do you want to start us out what are we here to talk about yeah i mean i think maybe uh you know just to set this context um as as many of you know about a decade ago a nation's sponsored attack you know actually got into google plus a whole bunch of tech companies you know the project aurora was quite uh you know infamous for a certain period of time and actually google realized almost a decade ago that look you know security can't just be a side thing it has to be the primary thing including one of the co-founders becoming for lack of a better word the chief security officer for a while but one of the key takeaways from that whole incident was that look you have to be able to detect everything and trust nothing and and the underpinning for at least one of them led to this whole zero trust architectures that everybody now knows about but the other part which is not as popular at least in industry vernacular but in many ways equally important and some ways more important is the fact that you need to be able to detect everything so that you can actually respond and that led to the formation of you know a project internal to google to actually say that look let's democratize uh storage and make sure that nobody has to pay for capturing security events and that led to the formation of this uh new industry concept called a security data lake in chronicle was born and then as we started evolving that over into the enterprise segment partnering with you know cyber reason on one hand created a one plus one equals three synergy between say the presence around what do you detect from the end point but also generally just so happens that as lior will tell you the cyber reason technology happens to start with endpoint but it's actually the core tech is around detecting events but doing it in a smart way to actually respond to them in much more of a contextual manner but beyond just that you know synergy between uh you know a world-class planet scale you know security data like forming the foundation and integrating you know in a much more cohesive way with uh cyber reasons detection response offering the spirit was actually that this is the first step of a long journey to really hit the reset button in terms of going from reactive mode of security to a proactive mode of security especially in a nation-state-sponsored attack vector so maybe leo you can speak a few minutes on that as well absolutely so um as you said i'm coming from a background of uh nation state hacking so for us at cyberism it's uh not is foreign uh what the chinese are doing uh on a daily basis and the growing uh ransomware cartel that's happening right now in russia um when we looked at it we said then uh cyberism is very famous by our endpoint detection and response capability but when we establish cyber reason we establish the cyberism on a core or almost fundamental idea of finding malicious operation we call it the male idea so basically instead of looking for alerts or instead of looking for just pieces of data we want to find the hackers we want to find the attack we want to be able to tell basically the full story of what's going on uh in order to do that we build the inside cyberism basically from day one the ability to analyze any data in real time in order to stitch it into the story of the male the malicious operation but what we realize very quickly that while our solution can process more than 27 trillion events a week we cannot feed it fast enough just from end point and we are kind of blind when it comes to the rest of the attack surface so we were looking uh to be honest quite a while for the best technology that can feed this engine and to as sunil said the one plus one equal three or four or five to be able to fight against those hackers so in this journey uh we we found basically chronicle and the combination of the scale that chronicle bringing the ability to feed the engine and together basically to be able to find those hackers in real time and real time is very very important and then to response to those type of attack so basically what is uh exciting here we created a solution that is five times faster than any solution that exists right now in the market and most importantly it enables us to reverse the atmospheric advantage and basically to find them and to push them out so we're moving from hey just to tell you a story to actually prevent hackers to being in your environment so leor can you i want to double click on that just just a little bit um can you give give us a kind of a concrete example of this difference between simply receiving alerts and uh and actually um you know taking taking uh uh correlating creating correlations and uh and actually creating actionable proactive intelligence can you give us an example of that working in in the real world yeah absolutely we can start from a simple example of ransomware by the time that i will tell you that there is a ransomware your environment and i will send an alert uh it will be five computers that are encrypted and by the time that you gonna look at the alert it's gonna be five thousand uh basically machines that are encrypted and by the time that you will do something it's going to be already too little too late and this is just a simple example so preventing that thing from happening this is critical and very timely manner in order to prevent the damage of ransomware but if you go aside from ransomware and you look for example of the attack like solarwind basically the purpose of this attack was not to create damage it was espionage the russian wanted to collect data on our government and this is kind of uh the main purpose that they did this attack so the ability to be able to say hey right now there is a penetration this is the step that they are doing and there is five ways to push them out of the environment and actually doing it this is something that today it's done manually and with the power of chronicle and cyberism we can do it automatically and that's the massive difference sunil are there specific industries that should be really interested in this or is this a is this a broad set of folks that should be impacted no you know in some ways uh you know the the the saying these days to learn's point on ransomware is that you know if if a customer or an enterprise has a reasonable top-line revenue you're a target you know you're a target to some extent so in that sense especially given that this has moved from pure espionage or you know whether it be you know government oriented or industrial espionage to a financial fraud then at that point in time it applies to pretty much a wide gamut of industries not just financial services or you know critical infrastructure companies like oil and gas pipeline or whatever it could be like any company that has any sort of ip that they feel drives their top line business is now a target for such attacks so when you talk about the idea of partnership and creating something out of a collaboration what's the meat behind this what what what do you what are you guys doing beyond saying you know hey sunil lior these guys really like each other and they respect what the other is doing what's going on behind the scenes what are you actually implementing here moving forward so every partnership is starting with love so it's good [Laughter] but then it need to translate to to really kind of pure value to our customers and pure value coming from a deep integration when it's come to the product so basically uh what will happen is every piece of data that we can collect at cyber is in uh from endpoint any piece of data that the chronicle can collect from any log that exists in the world so basically this is kind of covering the whole attack surface so first we have access to every piece of information across the full attack surface then the main question is okay once you collect all this data what you're gonna do with it and most of companies or all the companies today they don't have an answer they're saying oh we're gonna issue an alert and we hope that there is a smart person behind the keyboard that can understand what just happened and make a decision and with this partnership and with this integration basically we're not asking and outsourcing the question what to do to the user we're giving them the answer we're telling them hey this is the story of the attack this is all the pieces that's going on right now and in most cases we're gonna say hey and by the way we just stopped it so you can prevent it from the future when will people be able to leverage this capability in an integrated way and and and by the way restate how this is going to market as an integrated solution what is what is the what is what are we going to call this moving forward so basically this is the cyber reason xdr uh powered by chronicle and we are very very um uh happy about it yeah and i think just to add to that i would say look the the meta strategy here and the way it'll manifest is in this offering that comes out in early 2022 um is that if you think about it today you know a classical quote-unquote security pipeline is to detect you know analyze and then respond obviously you know just just doing those three in a good way is hard doing it in real time at scale is even harder so just that itself was where cyber reason and chronicle would add real value where we are able to collect a lot of events react in real time but a couple of things that i think that you know to your original point of why this is probably going to be a little for game changer in the years to come is we're trying to change that from detect analyze respond to detect understand and anticipate so because ultimately that's really how we can change you know the profile from being reactive in a world of ransomware or anything else to being proactive against a nation sponsored or nation's influenced attacks because they're not going to stop right so the only way to do this is to rather than just go back up the hatches is just really you know change change the profile of how you'll actually anticipate what they were probably going to do in 6 months or 12 months and so the the graph technology that powers the heart of you know cyber reason is going to be intricately woven in with the contextual information that chronicle can get so that the intermediate step is not just about analysis but it's about truly understanding the overall strategy that has been employed in the past to predict what could happen in the future so therefore then actions could be taken downstream that you can now say hey most likely this these five buckets have this kind of personal information data there's a reasonable chance that you know if they're exposed to the internet then as you create more such buckets in that project you're going to be susceptible to more ransomware attacks or some other attacks right and that's the the the kind of thinking or the transformation that we're trying to bring out with this joint office so lior uh this this concept of uh of mallops and uh cyber reason itself you weren't just born yesterday you've been you've been uh you have thousands of customers around the globe he does look like he was born i i know i know i know well you you know it used to be that the ideal candidate for ceo of a startup company was someone who dropped out of stanford i think it's getting to the point where it's people who refused admission to stanford so uh the the dawn of the 14 year old ceo it's just it's just around the corner but uh but lior do you get frustrated when you see um you know when you become aware of circumstances that would not have happened had they implemented your technology as it exists today yeah we have a for this year it was a really frustrating year that starting with solarwind if you analyze the code of solarwind and we did it but other did it as well basically the russians were checking if cyberism is installed on the machine and if we were installed on the machine they decided to stop the attack this is something that first it was a great compliment for us from you know our not friend from the other side that decided to stop the attack but on a serious note it's like we were pissed because if people were using this technology we know that they are not going to be attacked when we analyze it we realize that we have three different ways to find the solar wind hackers in a three different way so this is just one example and then the next example in the colonial pipeline hack we were the one that found darkseid as a group that we were hacking we were the first one that released a research on them and we showed how we can prevent the basically what they are doing with our technology so when you see kind of those type of just two examples and we have many of them on a daily basis we just know that we have the technology in order to do that now when we're combining uh the chronicle technology into the the technology that we already have we basically can reverse the adversary advantage this is something that you're not doing in a single day but this is something that really give power to the defenders to the communities of siso that exist kind of across the us um and i believe that if we're going to join forces and lean into this community and and basically push the solution out the ability for us to fight against those cartels specifically the ransomware cartels is going to be massive sunil this time next year when we are in uh google cloud next 2022 um are you guys going to come back on and offer up the we told you so awards because once this is actually out there and readily available the combination of chronicle and cyber reasons technology um it's going to be hard for some csos to have an excuse uh it may be it may be a uncomfortable to know that uh they could have kept the door secure uh but didn't yeah where's that bad business is that bad business to uh hand out awards for doing dumb things i don't know about uh you know a version of darwin awards probably don't make sense but but but generally speaking so i do think uh you know we're all like as citizens in this right because you know we talk about customers i mean you know alphabet and google is a customer in some ways cyber reason is a customer the cube is a customer right so i think i think the robot hitting the road a year from now will be we should we should do this where i don't know if the cube does more than two folks at the same time david but we should i mean i'm sure we'll have enough to have at least a half a dozen in in the room to kind of talk about the solution because i think the the you know as you can imagine this thing didn't materialize i mean it's been being cooked for a while between your team and our team and in fact it was inspired by feedback from some joint customers out in the market and all that good stuff so so a year from now i think the best thing would be not just having customers to talk about the solution but to really talk about that transformation from respond to anticipate and do they feel better on their security posture in a world that they know like and leo should probably spend a few minutes on this is i think we're on the tip of the sphere of this nation-state era and what we've just seen in the last few years is what maybe the nation-states have seen over two decades ago and they're going to run those playbooks on the enterprise for the next decade or so yeah leor talk about that for a minute yeah it's it's really you know just to continue the sunil thought it's it's really about finding the unknown because what's happening on the other side it's like specifically china and russia and lately we saw iran starting to gain uh power um basically their job is to become better and better and to basically innovate and create a new type of attack on a daily basis as technology has evolved so basically there is a very simple equation as we're using more technology and relying more on technology the other side is going to exploit it in order to gain more power espionage and create financial damage but it's important to say that this evolution it's not going to stop this is just the beginning and a lot of the data that was belong just to government against government fight basically linked in the past few years now criminals starting to use it as well so in a sense if you think about it what's happening right now there is basically a cold war that nobody is talking about it between kind of the giant that everybody is hacking everybody and in the crossfire we see all of those enterprises across the world it was not a surprise that um you know after the biden and putin uh meeting suddenly it was a quiet it was no ransomware for six weeks and after something changing the politics suddenly we can see a a groin kind of attack when it's come to ransomware that we know that was directed from russia in order to create pressure on the u.s economy sunil wrap us up what are your f what are what are your final thoughts and uh what's what's the what's the big takeaway here no i think you know i i think the key thing for everyone to know is look i think we are going into an era of state-sponsored uh not espionage as much as threat vectors that affect every business and so in many ways the chiefs the chief information security officer the chief risk officer in many ways the ceo and the board now have to pay attention to this topic much like they paid attention to mobile 15 years ago as a transformation thing or maybe cloud 10 years ago i think cyber has been one of those it's sort of like the wireless error david like it existed in the 90s but didn't really break around until iphone hit or the world of consumerization really took off right and i think we're at the tip of the spear of that cyber really becoming like the era of mobile for 15 years ago and so i think that's the if there's like a big takeaway i think yes there's lots of solutions the good news is great innovations are coming through companies like cyber reason working with you know proven providers like google and so forth and so there's a lot of like support in the ecosystem but i think if there was one takeaway that was that everybody should just be ready internalized we don't have to be paranoid about it but we anticipate that this is going to be a long game that we'll have to play together well with that uh taking off my journalist hat for a moment and putting on my citizen hat uh it's reassuring to know that we have really smart people working on this uh because when we talk about critical infrastructure control systems and things like that being under threat um that's more significant than simply having your social security number stolen in a in a data breach so um with that uh i'd like to thank you sunil leor thank you so much for joining us on this special cube conversation this is dave nicholson signing off from our continuing coverage of google cloud next 2021 [Music] you

(cheerful music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to today's session of theCUBE's presentation of AWS Startup Showcase, New Breakthroughs in DevOps, Data Analytics, Cloud Management Tools, featuring Okera from the cloud management migration track. I'm John Furrier, your host. We've got two great special guests today, Nong Li, founder and CTO of Okera, and Sanjeev Mohan, principal @SanjMo, and former research vice president of big data and advanced analytics at Gartner. He's a legend, been around the industry for a long time, seen the big data trends from the past, present, and knows the future. Got a great lineup here. Gentlemen, thank you for this, so, life in the trenches, lessons learned across compliance, cloud migration, analytics, and use cases for Fortune 1000s. Thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having us. >> So Sanjeev, great to see you, I know you've seen this movie, I was saying that in the open, you've at Gartner seen all the visionaries, the leaders, you know everything about this space. It's changing extremely fast, and one of the big topics right out of the gate is not just innovation, we'll get to that, that's the fun part, but it's the regulatory compliance and audit piece of it. It's keeping people up at night, and frankly if not done right, slows things down. This is a big part of the showcase here, is to solve these problems. Share us your thoughts, what's your take on this wide-ranging issue? >> So, thank you, John, for bringing this up, and I'm so happy you mentioned the fact that, there's this notion that it can slow things down. Well I have to say that the old way of doing governance slowed things down, because it was very much about control and command. But the new approach to data governance is actually in my opinion, it's liberating data. If you want to democratize or monetize, whatever you want to call it, you cannot do it 'til you know you can trust said data and it's governed in some ways, so data governance has actually become very interesting, and today if you want to talk about three different areas within compliance regulatory, for example, we all know about the EU GDPR, we know California has CCPA, and in fact California is now getting even a more stringent version called CPRA in a couple of years, which is more aligned to GDPR. That is a first area we know we need to comply to that, we don't have any way out. But then, there are other areas, there is insider trading, there is how you secure the data that comes from third parties, you know, vendors, partners, suppliers, so Nong, I'd love to hand it over to you, and see if you can maybe throw some light into how our customers are handling these use cases. >> Yeah, absolutely, and I love what you said about balancing agility and liberating, in the face of what may be seen as things that slow you down. So we work with customers across verticals with old and new regulations, so you know, you brought up GDPR. One of our clients is using this to great effect to power their ecosystem. They are a very large retail company that has operations and customers across the world, obviously the importance of GDPR, and the regulations that imposes on them are very top of mind, and at the same time, being able to do effective targeting analytics on customer information is equally critical, right? So they're exactly at that spot where they need this customer insight for powering their business, and then the regulatory concerns are extremely prevalent for them. So in the context of GDPR, you'll hear about things like consent management and right to be forgotten, right? I, as a customer of that retailer should say "I don't want my information used for this purpose," right? "Use it for this, but not this." And you can imagine at a very, very large scale, when you have a billion customers, managing that, all the data you've collected over time through all of your devices, all of your telemetry, really, really challenging. And they're leveraging Okera embedded into their analytics platform so they can do both, right? Their data scientists and analysts who need to do everything they're doing to power the business, not have to think about these kind of very granular customer filtering requirements that need to happen, and then they leverage us to do that. So that's kind of new, right, GDPR, relatively new stuff at this point, but we obviously also work with customers that have regulations from a long long time ago, right? So I think you also mentioned insider trading and that supply chain, so we'll talk to customers, and they want really data-driven decisions on their supply chain, everything about their production pipeline, right? They want to understand all of that, and of course that makes sense, whether you're the CFO, if you're going to make business decisions, you need that information readily available, and supply chains as we know get more and more and more complex, we have more and more integrated into manufacturing and other verticals. So that's your, you're a little bit stuck, right? You want to be data-driven on those supply chain analytics, but at the same time, knowing the details of all the supply chain across all of your dependencies exposes your internal team to very high blackout periods or insider trading concerns, right? For example, if you knew Apple was buying a bunch of something, that's maybe information that only a select few people can have, and the way that manifests into data policies, 'cause you need the ability to have very, very scalable, per employee kind of scalable data restriction policies, so they can do their job easier, right? If we talk about speeding things up, instead of a very complex process for them to get approved, and approved on SEC regulations, all that kind of stuff, you can now go give them access to the part of the supply chain that they need, and no more, and limit their exposure and the company's exposure and all of that kind of stuff. So one of our customers able to do this, getting two orders of magnitude, a 100x reduction in the policies to manage the system like that. >> When I hear you talking like that, I think the old days of "Oh yeah, regulatory, it kind of slows down innovation, got to go faster," pretty basic variables, not a lot of combination of things to check. Now with cloud, there seems to be combinations, Sanjeev, because how complicated has the regulatory compliance and audit environment gotten in the past few years, because I hear security in a supply chain, I hear insider threats, I mean these are security channels, not just compliance department G&A kind of functions. You're talking about large-scale, potentially combinations of access, distribution, I mean it seems complicated. How much more complicated is it now, just than it was a few years ago? >> So, you know the way I look at it is, I'm just mentioning these companies just as an example, when PayPal or Ebay, all these companies started, they started in California. Anybody who ever did business on Ebay or PayPal, guess where that data was? In the US in some data center. Today you cannot do it. Today, data residency laws are really tough, and so now these organizations have to really understand what data needs to remain where. On top of that, we now have so many regulations. You know, earlier on if you were healthcare, you needed to be HIPAA compliant, or banking PCI DSS, but today, in the cloud, you really need to know, what data I have, what sensitive data I have, how do I discover it? So that data discovery becomes really important. What roles I have, so for example, let's say I work for a bank in the US, and I decide to move to Germany. Now, the old school is that a new rule will be created for me, because of German... >> John: New email address, all these new things happen, right? >> Right, exactly. So you end up with this really, a mass of rules and... And these are all static. >> Rules and tools, oh my god. >> Yeah. So Okera actually makes a lot of this dynamic, which reduces your cloud migration overhead, and Nong used some great examples, in fact, sorry if I take just a second, without mentioning any names, there's one of the largest banks in the world is going global in the digital space for the first time, and they're taking Okera with them. So... >> But what's the point? This is my next topic in cloud migration, I want to bring this up because, complexity, when you're in that old school kind of data center, waterfall, these old rules and tools, you have to roll this out, and it's a pain in the butt for everybody, it's a hassle, huge hassle. Cloud gives the agility, we know that, and cloud's becoming more secure, and I think now people see the on-premise, certainly things that'd be on-premises for secure things, I get that, but when you start getting into agility, and you now have cloud regions, you can start being more programmatic, so I want to get you guys' thoughts on the cloud migration, how companies who are now lifting and shifting, replatforming, what's the refactoring beyond that, because you can replatform in the cloud, and still some are kind of holding back on that. Then when you're in the cloud, the ones that are winning, the companies that are winning are the ones that are refactoring in the cloud. Doing things different with new services. Sanjeev, you start. >> Yeah, so you know, in fact lot of people tell me, "You know, we are just going to lift and shift into the cloud." But you're literally using cloud as a data center. You still have all the, if I may say, junk you had on-prem, you just moved it into the cloud, and now you're paying for it. In cloud, nothing is free. Every storage, every processing, you're going to pay for it. The most successful companies are the ones that are replatforming, they are taking advantage of the platform as a service or software as a service, so that includes things like, you pay as you go, you pay for exactly the amount you use, so you scale up and scale down or scale out and scale in, pretty quickly, you know? So you're handling that demand, so without replatforming, you are not really utilizing your- >> John: It's just hosting. >> Yeah, you're just hosting. >> It's basically hosting if you're not doing anything right there. >> Right. The reason why people sometimes resist to replatform, is because there's a hidden cost that we don't really talk about, PaaS adds 3x to IaaS cost. So, some organizations that are very mature, and they have a few thousand people in the IT department, for them, they're like "No, we just want to run it in the cloud, we have the expertise, and it's cheaper for us." But in the long run, to get the most benefit, people should think of using cloud as a service. >> Nong what's your take, because you see examples of companies, I'll just call one out, Snowflake for instance, they're essentially a data warehouse in the cloud, they refactored and they replatformed, they have a competitive advantage with the scale, so they have things that others don't have, that just hosting. Or even on-premise. The new model developing where there's real advantages, and how should companies think about this when they have to manage these data lakes, and they have to manage all these new access methods, but they want to maintain that operational stability and control and growth? >> Yeah, so. No? Yeah. >> There's a few topics that are all (indistinct) this topic. (indistinct) enterprises moving to the cloud, they do this maybe for some cost savings, but a ton of it is agility, right? The motor that the business can run at is just so much faster. So we'll work with companies in the context of cloud migration for data, where they might have a data warehouse they've been using for 20 years, and building policies over that time, right? And it's taking a long time to go proof of access and those kind of things, made more sense, right? If it took you months to procure a physical infrastructure, get machines shipped to your data center, then this data access taking so long feels okay, right? That's kind of the same rate that everything is moving. In the cloud, you can spin up new infrastructure instantly, so you don't want approvals for getting policies, creating rules, all that stuff that Sanjeev was talking about, that being slow is a huge, huge problem. So this is a very common environment that we see where they're trying to do that kind of thing. And then, for replatforming, again, they've been building these roles and processes and policies for 20 years. What they don't want to do is take 20 years to go migrate all that stuff into the cloud, right? That's probably an experience nobody wants to repeat, and frankly for many of them, people who did it originally may or may not be involved in this kind of effort. So we work with a lot of companies like that, they have their, they want stability, they got to have the business running as normal, they got to get moving into the new infrastructure, doing it in a new way that, you know, with all the kind of lessons learned, so, as Sanjeev said, one of these big banks that we work with, that classical story of on-premise data warehousing, maybe a little bit of Hadoop, moved onto AWS, S3, Snowflake, that kind of setup, extremely intricate policies, but let's go reimagine how we can do this faster, right? What we like to talk about is, you're an organization, you need a design that, if you onboarded 1000 more data users, that's got to be way, way easier than the first 10 you onboarded, right? You got to get it to be easier over time, in a really, really significant way. >> Talk about the data authorization safety factor, because I can almost imagine all the intricacies of these different tools creates specialism amongst people who operate them. And each one might have their own little authorization nuance. Trend is not to have that siloed mentality. What's your take on clients that want to just "Hey, you know what? I want to have the maximum agility, but I don't want to get caught in the weeds on some of these tripwires around access and authorization." >> Yeah, absolutely, I think it's real important to get the balance of it, right? Because if you are an enterprise, or if you have diversive teams, you want them to have the ability to use tools as best of breed for their purpose, right? But you don't want to have it be so that every tool has its own access and provisioning and whatever, that's definitely going to be a security, or at least, a lot of friction for you to get things going. So we think about that really hard, I think we've seen great success with things like SSO and Okta, right? Unifying authentication. We think there's a very, very similar thing about to happen with authorization. You want that single control plane that can integrate with all the tools, and still get the best of what you need, but it's much, much easier (indistinct). >> Okta's a great example, if people don't want to build their own thing and just go with that, same with what you guys are doing. That seems to be the dots that are connecting you, Sanjeev. The ease of use, but yet the stability factor. >> Right. Yeah, because John, today I may want to bring up a SQL editor to go into Snowflake, just as an example. Tomorrow, I may want to use the Azure Bot, you know? I may not even want to go to Snowflake, I may want to go to an underlying piece of data, or I may use Power BI, you know, for some reason, and come from Azure side, so the point is that, unless we are able to control, in some sort of a centralized manner, we will not get that consistency. And security you know is all or nothing. You cannot say "Well, I secured my Snowflake, but if you come through HTFS, Hadoop, or some, you know, that is outside of my realm, or my scope," what's the point? So that is why it is really important to have a watertight way, in fact I'm using just a few examples, maybe tomorrow I decide to use a data catalog, or I use Denodo as my data virtualization and I run a query. I'm the same identity, but I'm using different tools. I may use it from home, over VPN, or I may use it from the office, so you want this kind of flexibility, all encompassed in a policy, rather than a separate rule if you do this and this, if you do that, because then you end up with literally thousands of rules. >> And it's never going to stop, either, it's like fashion, the next tool's going to come out, it's going to be cool, and people are going to want to use it, again, you don't want to have to then move the train from the compliance side this way or that way, it's a lot of hassle, right? So we have that one capability, you can bring on new things pretty quickly. Nong, am I getting it right, this is kind of like the trend, that you're going to see more and more tools and/or things that are relevant or, certain use cases that might justify it, but yet, AppSec review, compliance review, I mean, good luck with that, right? >> Yeah, absolutely, I mean we certainly expect tools to continue to get more and more diverse, and better, right? Most innovation in the data space, and I think we... This is a great time for that, a lot of things that need to happen, and so on and so forth. So I think one of the early goals of the company, when we were just brainstorming, is we don't want data teams to not be able to use the tools because it doesn't have the right security (indistinct), right? Often those tools may not be focused on that particular area. They're great at what they do, but we want to make sure they're enabled, they do some enterprise investments, they see broader adoption much easier. A lot of those things. >> And I can hear the sirens in the background, that's someone who's not using your platform, they need some help there. But that's the case, I mean if you don't get this right, there are some consequences, and I think one of the things I would like to bring up on next track is, to talk through with you guys is, the persona pigeonhole role, "Oh yeah, a data person, the developer, the DevOps, the SRE," you start to see now, developers and with cloud developers, and data folks, people, however they get pigeonholed, kind of blending in, okay? You got data services, you got analytics, you got data scientists, you got more democratization, all these things are being kicked around, but the notion of a developer now is a data developer, because cloud is about DevOps, data is now a big part of it, it's not just some department, it's actually blending in. Just a cultural shift, can you guys share your thoughts on this trend of data people versus developers now becoming kind of one, do you guys see this happening, and if so, how? >> So when, John, I started my career, I was a DBA, and then a data architect. Today, I think you cannot have a DBA who's not a developer. That's just my opinion. Because there is so much of CICD, DevOps, that happens today, and you know, you write your code in Python, you put it in version control, you deploy using Jenkins, you roll back if there's a problem. And then, you are interacting, you're building your data to be consumed as a service. People in the past, you would have a thick client that would connect to the database over TCP/IP. Today, people don't want to connect over TCP/IP necessarily, they want to go by HTTP. And they want an API gateway in the middle. So, if you're a data architect or DBA, now you have to worry about, "I have a REST API call that's coming in, how am I going to secure that, and make sure that people are allowed to see that?" And that was just yesterday. >> Exactly. Got to build an abstraction layer. You got to build an abstraction layer. The old days, you have to worry about schema, and do all that, it was hard work back then, but now, it's much different. You got serverless, functions are going to show way... It's happening. >> Correct, GraphQL, and semantic layer, that just blows me away because, it used to be, it was all in database, then we took it out of database and we put it in a BI tool. So we said, like BusinessObjects started this whole trend. So we're like "Let's put the semantic layer there," well okay, great, but that was when everything was surrounding BusinessObjects and Oracle Database, or some other database, but today what if somebody brings Power BI or Tableau or Qlik, you know? Now you don't have a semantic layer access. So you cannot have it in the BI layer, so you move it down to its own layer. So now you've got a semantic layer, then where do you store your metrics? Same story repeats, you have a metrics layer, then the data centers want to do feature engineering, where do you store your features? You have a feature store. And before you know, this stack has disaggregated over and over and over, and then you've got layers and layers of specialization that are happening, there's query accelerators like Dremio or Trino, so you've got your data here, which Nong is trying really hard to protect, and then you've got layers and layers and layers of abstraction, and networks are fast, so the end user gets great service, but it's a nightmare for architects to bring all these things together. >> How do you tame the complexity? What's the bottom line? >> Nong? >> Yeah, so, I think... So there's a few things you need to do, right? So, we need to re-think how we express security permanence, right? I think you guys have just maybe in passing (indistinct) talked about creating all these rules and all that kind of stuff, that's been the way we've done things forever. We get to think about policies and mechanisms that are much more dynamic, right? You need to really think about not having to do any additional work, for the new things you add to the system. That's really, really core to solving the complexity problem, right? 'Cause that gets you those orders of magnitude reduction, system's got to be more expressive and map to those policies. That's one. And then second, it's got to be implemented at the right layer, right, to Sanjeev's point, close to the data, and it can service all of those applications and use cases at the same time, and have that uniformity and breadth of support. So those two things have to happen. >> Love this universal data authorization vision that you guys have. Super impressive, we had a CUBE Conversation earlier with Nick Halsey, who's a veteran in the industry, and he likes it. That's a good sign, 'cause he's seen a lot of stuff, too, Sanjeev, like yourself. This is a new thing, you're seeing compliance being addressed, and with programmatic, I'm imagining there's going to be bots someday, very quickly with AI that's going to scale that up, so they kind of don't get in the innovation way, they can still get what they need, and enable innovation. You've got cloud migration, which is only going faster and faster. Nong, you mentioned speed, that's what CloudOps is all about, developers want speed, not things in days or hours, they want it in minutes and seconds. And then finally, ultimately, how's it scale up, how does it scale up for the people operating and/or programming? These are three major pieces. What happens next? Where do we go from here, what's, the customer's sitting there saying "I need help, I need trust, I need scale, I need security." >> So, I just wrote a blog, if I may diverge a bit, on data observability. And you know, so there are a lot of these little topics that are critical, DataOps is one of them, so to me data observability is really having a transparent view of, what is the state of your data in the pipeline, anywhere in the pipeline? So you know, when we talk to these large banks, these banks have like 1000, over 1000 data pipelines working every night, because they've got that hundred, 200 data sources from which they're bringing data in. Then they're doing all kinds of data integration, they have, you know, we talked about Python or Informatica, or whatever data integration, data transformation product you're using, so you're combining this data, writing it into an analytical data store, something's going to break. So, to me, data observability becomes a very critical thing, because it shows me something broke, walk me down the pipeline, so I know where it broke. Maybe the data drifted. And I know Okera does a lot of work in data drift, you know? So this is... Nong, jump in any time, because I know we have use cases for that. >> Nong, before you get in there, I just want to highlight a quick point. I think you're onto something there, Sanjeev, because we've been reporting, and we believe, that data workflows is intellectual property. And has to be protected. Nong, go ahead, your thoughts, go ahead. >> Yeah, I mean, the observability thing is critically important. I would say when you want to think about what's next, I think it's really effectively bridging tools and processes and systems and teams that are focused on data production, with the data analysts, data scientists, that are focused on data consumption, right? I think bridging those two, which cover a lot of the topics we talked about, that's kind of where security almost meets, that's kind of where you got to draw it. I think for observability and pipelines and data movement, understanding that is essential. And I think broadly, on all of these topics, where all of us can be better, is if we're able to close the loop, get the feedback loop of success. So data drift is an example of the loop rarely being closed. It drifts upstream, and downstream users can take forever to figure out what's going on. And we'll have similar examples related to buy-ins, or data quality, all those kind of things, so I think that's really a problem that a lot of us should think about. How do we make sure that loop is closed as quickly as possible? >> Great insight. Quick aside, as the founder CTO, how's life going for you, you feel good? I mean, you started a company, doing great, it's not drifting, it's right in the stream, mainstream, right in the wheelhouse of where the trends are, you guys have a really crosshairs on the real issues, how you feeling, tell us a little bit about how you see the vision. >> Yeah, I obviously feel really good, I mean we started the company a little over five years ago, there are kind of a few things that we bet would happen, and I think those things were out of our control, I don't think we would've predicted GDPR security and those kind of things being as prominent as they are. Those things have really matured, probably as best as we could've hoped, so that feels awesome. Yeah, (indistinct) really expanded in these years, and it feels good. Feels like we're in the right spot. >> Yeah, it's great, data's competitive advantage, and certainly has a lot of issues. It could be a blocker if not done properly, and you're doing great work. Congratulations on your company. Sanjeev, thanks for kind of being my cohost in this segment, great to have you on, been following your work, and you continue to unpack it at your new place that you started. SanjMo, good to see your Twitter handle taking on the name of your new firm, congratulations. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much, such a pleasure. >> Appreciate it. Okay, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, you're watching today's session presentation of AWS Startup Showcase, featuring Okera, a hot startup, check 'em out, great solution, with a really great concept. Thanks for watching. (calm music)

>>and hello, we're back. I've got my panel and we are doing things real time here. So sorry for the delay a few minutes late. So the way let's talk about things, the reason we're here and we're going around the room and introduce everybody. Got three special guests here. I got my evil or my john and the normal And we're going to talk about get ops I called it future office just because I want to think about what's the next thing for that at the end, we're gonna talk about what our ideas for what's next for getups, right? Um, because we're all starting to just get into get ups now. But of course a lot of us are always thinking about what's next? What's better? How can we make this thing better? So we're going to take your questions. That's the reason we're here, is to take your questions and answer them. Or at least the best we can for the next hour. And all right, so let's go around the room and introduce yourself. My name is Brett. I am streaming from Brett from that. From Brett. From Virginia Beach in Virginia beach, Virginia, United States. Um, and I talk about things on the internet, I sell courses on you, to me that talk about Docker and kubernetes Ive or introduce yourself. >>How's it going? Everyone, I'm a software engineer at axel Springer, currently based in Berlin and I happen to be Brett Brett's teaching assistant. >>All right, that's right. We're in, we're in our courses together almost every day. Mm john >>hey everyone, my name is john Harris, I used to work at Dhaka um, I now work at VM ware is a star field engineer. Um, so yeah, >>and normal >>awesome by the way, you are streaming from Brett Brett, >>I answered from breath to breath. >>Um I'm normal method. I'm a distinguished engineer with booz allen and I'm also a doctor captain and it's good to see either in person and it's good to see you again john it's been a little while. >>It has the pre covid times, right? You're up here in Seattle. >>Yeah. It feels, it feels like an eternity ago. >>Yeah, john shirt looks red and reminds me of the Austin T shirt. So I was like, yeah, so we all, we all have like this old limited edition doctor on E. >>T. That's a, that's a classic. >>Yeah, I scored that one last year. Sometimes with these old conference church, you have to like go into people's closets. I'm not saying I did that. Um, but you know, you have to go steal stuff, you to find ways to get the swag >>post post covid. If you ever come to my place, I'm going to have to lock the closets. That >>that's right, That's right. >>So the second I think it was the second floor of the doctor HQ in SAn Francisco was where they kept all the T shirts, just boxes and boxes and boxes floor to ceiling. So every time I went to HQ you just you just as many as you can fit in your luggage. I think I have about 10 of these. You >>bring an extra piece of luggage just for your your shirt shirt grab. Um All right, so I'm going to start scanning questions uh so that you don't have to you can you help you all are welcome to do that. And I'm going to start us off with the topic. Um So let's just define the parameters. Like we can talk about anything devops and here we can go down and plenty of rabbit holes. But the kind of, the goal here is to talk about get ups and get ups if you haven't heard about it is essentially uh using versioning systems like get like we've all been getting used to as developers to track your infrastructure changes, not just your code changes and then automate that with a bunch of tooling so that the robots take over. And essentially you have get as a central source of truth and then get log as a central source of history and then there's a bunch of magic little bits in the middle and then supposedly everything is wonderful. It's all automatic. The reality is is what it's often quite messy, quite tricky to get everything working. And uh the edges of this are not perfect. Um so it is a relatively new thing. It's probably three, maybe four years old as an official thing from. We've uh so we're gonna get into it and I'll let's go around the room and the same word we did before and um not to push on that, put you on the spot or anything. But what is, what is one of the things you either like or either hate about getups um that you've enjoyed either using it or you know, whatever for me. I really, I really love that I can point people to a repo that basically is hopefully if they look at the log a tracking, simplistic tracking of what might have changed in that part of the world or the environment. I remember many years past where, you know, I've had executive or some mid level manager wants to see what the changes were or someone outside my team went to see what we just changed. It was okay, they need access to this system into that dashboard and that spreadsheet and then this thing and it was always so complicated and now in a world where if we're using get up orbit bucket or whatever where you can just say, hey go look at that repo if there was three commits today, probably three changes happened. That's I love that particular part about it. Of course it's always more complicated than that. But um Ive or I know you've been getting into this stuff recently. So um any thoughts? Yeah, I think >>my favorite part about get ops is >>reproducibility. Um >>you know the ability to just test something and get it up and running >>and then just tear it down. >>Uh not >>being worried that how did I configure it the first time? I think that's my favorite part about >>it. I'm changing your background as we do this. >>I was going to say, did you just do it get ups pushed to like change his >>background, just a dialogue that different for that green screen equals false? Uh Change the background. Yeah, I mean, um and I mean I think last year was really my first year of actually using it on anything significant, like a real project. Um so I'm still, I still feel like I'm very new to john you anything. >>Yeah, it's weird getups is that thing which kind of crystallizes maybe better than anything else, the grizzled veteran life cycle of emotions with the technology because I think it's easy to get super excited about something new. And when I first looked into get up, so I think this is even before it was probably called getups, we were looking at like how to use guest source of truth, like everything sounds great, right? You're like, wait, get everyone knows, get gets the source of truth, There's a load of robust tooling. This just makes a sense. If everything dies, we can just apply the get again, that would be great. Um and then you go through like the trough of despair, right? We're like, oh no, none of this works. The application is super stateless if this doesn't work and what do we do with secrets and how do we do this? Like how do we get people access in the right place and then you realize everything is terrible again and then everything it equalizes and you're kind of, I think, you know, it sounds great on paper and they were absolutely fantastic things about it, but I think just having that measured approach to it, like it's, you know, I think when you put it best in the beginning where you do a and then there's a magic and then you get C. Right, like it's the magic, which is >>the magic is the mystery, >>right? >>Magic can be good and bad and in text so >>very much so yeah, so um concurrence with with john and ever uh in terms of what I like about it is the potential to apply it to moving security to left and getting closer to a more stable infrastructures code with respect to the whole entire environment. Um And uh and that reconciliation loop, it reminds me of what, what is old is new again? Right? Well, quote unquote old um in terms of like chef and puppet and that the reconciliation loop applied in a in a more uh in a cleaner interface and and into the infrastructure that we're kind of used to already, once you start really digging into kubernetes what I don't like and just this is in concurrence with the other Panelist is it's relatively new. It has um, so it has a learning curve and it's still being, you know, it's a very active um environment and community and that means that things are changing and constantly and there's like new ways and new patterns as people are exploring how to use it. And I think that trough of despair is typically figuring out incrementally what it actually is doing for you and what it's not going to solve for you, right, john, so like that's that trough of despair for a bit and then you realize, okay, this is where it fits potentially in my architecture and like anything, you have to make that trade off and you have to make that decision and accept the trade offs for that. But I think it has a lot of promise for, for compliance and security and all that good stuff. >>Yeah. It's like it's like the potentials, there's still a lot more potential than there is uh reality right now. I think it's like I feel like we're very early days and the idea of especially when you start getting into tooling that doesn't appreciate getups like you're using to get up to and use something else and that tool has no awareness of the concept so it doesn't flow well with all of the things you're trying to do and get um uh things that aren't state based and all that. So this is going to lead me to our first question from Camden asking dumb questions by the way. No dumb questions here. Um How is get apps? Not just another name for C. D. Anybody want to take that as an answer as a question. How is get up is not just another name for C. D. I have things but we can talk about it. I >>feel like we need victor foster kids. Yeah, sure you would have opinions. Yeah, >>I think it's a very yeah. One person replied said it's a very specific it's an opinionated version of cd. That's a great that's a great answer like that. Yeah. >>It's like an implement. Its it's an implementation of deployment if you want it if you want to use it for that. All right. I realize now it's kind of hard in terms of a physical panel and a virtual panel to figure out who on the panel is gonna, you know, ready to jump in to answer a question. But I'll take it. So um I'll um I'll do my best inner victor and say, you know, it's it's an implementation of C. D. And it's it's a choice right? It's one can just still do docker build and darker pushes and doctor pulls and that's fine. Or use other technologies to deploy containers and pods and change your, your kubernetes infrastructure. But get apps is a different implementation, a different method of doing that same thing at the end of the day. Yeah, >>I like it. I like >>it and I think that goes back to your point about, you know, it's kind of early days still, I think to me what I like about getups in that respect is it's nice to see kubernetes become a platform where people are experimenting with different ways of doing things, right? And so I think that encourages like lots of different patterns and overall that's going to be a good thing for the community because then more, you know, and not everything needs to settle in terms of only one way of doing things, but a lot of different ways of doing things helps people fit, you know, the tooling to their needs, or helps fit kubernetes to their needs, etcetera. Yeah, >>um I agree with that, the, so I'm gonna, since we're getting a load of good questions, so um one of the, one of the, one of the, I want to add to that real quick that one of the uh from the, we've people themselves, because I've had some on the show and one of things that I look at it is distinguishing is with continuous deployment tools, I sort of think that it's almost like previous generation and uh continuous deployment tools can be anything like we would consider Jenkins cd, right, if you if you had an association to a server and do a doctor pull and you know, dr up or dr composed up rather, or if it did a cube control apply uh from you know inside an ssh tunnel or something like that was considered considered C. D. Well get ops is much more rigid I think in terms of um you you need to apply, you have a specific repo that's all about your deployments and because of what tool you're using and that one your commit to a specific repo or in a specific branch that repo depends on how you're setting it up. That is what kicks off a workflow. And then secondly there's an understanding of state. So a lot of these tools now I have uh reconciliation where they they look at the cluster and if things are changing they will actually go back and to get and the robots will take over and will commit that. Hey this thing has changed um and you maybe you human didn't change it, something else might have changed it. So I think that's where getups is approaching it, is that ah we we need to we need to consider more than just a couple of commands that be runnin in a script. Like there needs to be more than that for a getups repo to happen anyway, that's just kind of the the take back to take away I took from a previous conversation with some people um >>we've I don't think that lost, its the last piece is really important, right? I think like for me, C d like Ci cd, they're more philosophical ideas, write a set of principles, right? Like getting an idea or a code change to environments promoting it. It's very kind of pipeline driven um and it's very imperative driven, right? Like our existing CD tools are a lot of the ways that people think about Cd, it would be triggered by an event, maybe a code push and then these other things are happening in sequence until they either fail or pass, right? And then we're done. Getups is very much sitting on the, you know, the reconciliation side, it's changing to a pull based model of reconciliation, right? Like it's very declarative, it's just looking at the state and it's automatically pulling changes when they happen, rather than this imperative trigger driven model. That's not to say that there aren't city tools which we're doing pull based or you can do pull based or get ups is doing anything creatively revolutionary here, but I think that's one of the main things that the ideas that are being introduced into those, like existing C kind of tools and pipelines, um certainly the pull based model and the reconciliation model, which, you know, has a lot in common with kubernetes and how those kind of controllers work, but I think that's the key idea. Yeah. >>Um This is a pretty specific one Tory asks, does anyone have opinions about get ops in a mono repo this is like this is getting into religion a little bit. How many repos are too many repose? How um any thoughts on that? Anyone before I rant, >>go >>for it, go for it? >>Yeah. How I'm using it right now in a monitor repo uh So I'm using GIT hub. Right, so you have what? The workflow and then inside a workflow? Yeah, mo file, I'll >>track the >>actual changes to the workflow itself, as well as a folder, which is basically some sort of service in Amman Arepa, so if any of those things changes, it'll trigger the actual pipeline to run. So that's like the simplest thing that I could figure out how to, you know, get it set up using um get hubs, uh workflow path future. Yeah. And it's worked for me for writing, you know? That's Yeah. >>Yeah, the a lot of these things too, like the mono repo discussion will, it's very tool specific. Each tool has various levels of support for branch branching and different repos and subdirectories are are looking at the defense and to see if there's changes in that specific directory. Yeah. Sorry, um john you're going to say something, >>I was just going to say, I've never really done it, but I imagine the same kind of downsides of mono repo to multiple report would exist there. I mean, you've got the blast radius issues, you've got, you know, how big is the mono repo? Do we have to pull does the tool have to pull that or cashier every time it needs to determine def so what is the support for being able to just look at directories versus you know, I think we can get way down into a deeper conversation. Maybe we'll save it for later on in the conversation about what we're doing. Get up, how do we structure our get reposed? We have super granular repo per environment, Perper out reaper, per cluster repo per whatever or do we have directories per environment or branches per environment? How how is everything organized? I think it's you know, it's going to be one of those, there's never one size fits all. I'll give the class of consultant like it depends answer. Right? >>Yeah, for sure. It's very similar to the code struggle because it depends. >>Right? >>Uh Yeah, it's similar to the to the code problem of teams trying to figure out how many repose for their code. Should they micro service, should they? Semi micro service, macro service. Like I mean, you know because too many repose means you're doing a bunch of repo management, a bunch of changes on your local system, you're constantly get pulling all these different things and uh but if you have one big repo then it's it's a it's a huge monolithic thing that you usually have to deal with. Path based issues of tools that only need to look at a specific directory and um yeah, it's a it's a culture, I feel like yeah, like I keep going back to this, it's a culture thing. Does your what is your team prefer? What do you like? What um what's painful for everyone and who's what's the loudest pain that you need to deal with? Is it is it repo management? That's the pain um or is it uh you know, is that that everyone's in one place and it's really hard to keep too many cooks out of the kitchen, which is a mono repo problem, you know? Um How do we handle security? So this is a great one from Tory again. Another great question back to back. And that's the first time we've done that um security as it pertains to get up to anyone who can commit can change the infrastructure. Yes. >>Yes. So the tooling that you have for your GIT repo and the authentication, authorization and permissions that you apply to the GIT repo using a get server like GIT hub or get lab or whatever your flavor of the day is is going to be how security is handled with respect to changes in your get ups configuration repository. So um that is completely specific to your implementation of that or ones implementation of of how they're handling that. Get repositories that the get ups tooling is looking at. To reconcile changes with respect to the permissions of the for lack of better term robot itself. Right? They get up tooling like flux or Argosy. D Um one kid would would create a user or a service account or uh other kind of authentication measures to limit the permissions for that service account that the Gaddafi's tooling needs to be able to read the repose and and send commits etcetera. So that is well within the realm of what you have already for your for your get your get um repo. Yeah. >>Yeah. A related question is from a g what they like about get apps if done nicely for a newbie it's you can get stuff done easily if you what they dislike about it is when you have too many get repose it becomes just too complicated and I agree. Um was making a joke with a team the other week that you know the developer used to just make one commit and they would pass pass it on to a QA team that would then eventually emerging in the master. But they made the commits to these feature branches or whatever. But now they make a commit, they make a pR there for their code then they go make a PR in the helm chart to update the thing to do that and then they go make a PR in the get ups repeal for Argo. And so we talked about that they're probably like four or five P. R. Is just to get their code in the production. But we were talking about the negative of that but the reality was It's just five or 4 or five prs like it wasn't five different systems that had five different methodologies and tooling and that. So I looked at it I was like well yeah that's kind of a pain in the get sense but you're also dealing with one type. It's a repetitive action but it's it's the one thing I don't have to go to five different systems with five different ways of doing it. And once in the web and one's on the client wants a command line that I don't remember. Um Yeah so it's got pros and cons I think when you >>I think when you get to the scale where those kind of issues are a problem then you're probably at the scale where you can afford to invest some time into automation into that. Right? Like what I've when I've seen this in larger customers or larger organizations if there ever at that stage where okay apps are coming up all the time. You know, there's a 10 X 100 X developer to operations folks who may be creating get repose setting up permissions then that stuff gets automated, right? Like, you know, maybe ticket based systems or whatever. Developers say I need a new app. It templates things or more often using the same model, right of reconciliation and operators and the horrific abuse of cogs that we're seeing in the communities community right now. Um You know, developers can create a crd which just says, hey, I'm creating a new app is called app A and then a controller will pick up that app a definition. It will go create a get a repo Programmatically it will add the right definitely will look up and held up the developers and the permissions that need to be able to get to that repo it will create and template automatically some name space and the clusters that it needs in the environments that it needs, depending on, you know, some metadata it might read. So I think, you know, those are definite problems and they're definitely like a teething, growing pain thing. But once you get to that scale, you kind of need to step back and say, well look, we just need to invest in time into the operational aspect of this and automating this pain away, I think. Yeah, >>yeah. And that ultimately ends in Yeah. Custom tooling, which it's hard to avoid it at scale. I mean, there's there's two, there's almost two conversations here, right. There is what I call the Solo admin Solo devops, I bought that domain Solo devops dot com because, you know, whenever I'm talking to dr khan in the real world, it's like I asked people to raise hands, I don't know how we can raise hands here, but I would ask people to raise hands and see how many of you here are. The sole person responsible for deploying the app that your team makes and like a quarter of the room would raise their hand. So I call that solo devops like those, that person can't make all the custom tooling in the world. So they really need dr like solutions where it's opinionated, the workflow is sort of built in and they don't have to wrangle things together with a bunch of glue, you know, in other words bash. Um and so this kind of comes to a conversation uh starting this question from lee he's asking how do you combine get ops with ci cd, especially the continuous bit. How do you avoid having a human uh sort of the complaint the team I was working with has, how do you avoid a human editing and get committing for every single deploy? They've settled on customized templates and a script for routine updates. So as a seed for this conference, this question I'm gonna ask you all uh instead of that specific question cause it's a little open ended. Um Tell me whether you agree with this. I I kind of look at the image, the image artifact because the doctor image or container image in general is an artifact that I I view it that way and that thing going into the registry with the right label or right part of the label. Um That tag rather not the label but the tag that to me is like one of the great demarche points of, we're kind of done with Ci and we're now into the deployment phase and it doesn't necessarily mean the tooling is a clear cut there, but that artifact being shipped in a specific way or promoted as we sometimes say. Um what do you think? Does anyone have opinions on that? I don't even know if that's the right opinion to have so mhm. >>So um I think what you're, what you're getting at is that get ups, models can trigger off of different events um to trigger the reconciliation loop. And one way to do that is if the image, if it notices a image change in the registry, the other is if there's a commit event on a specific rebo and branch and it's up to, you are up to the person that's implementing their get ups model, what event to trigger there, that reconciliation loop off of, You can do both, you can do one or the other. It also depends on the Templeton engine that you're using on top of um on top of kubernetes, such as helm or um you know, the other ones that are out there or if you're not even doing that, then, you know straight. Yeah, mo um so it kind of just depends, but those are the typically the two options one has and a combination of of those to trigger that event. You can also just trigger it manually, right? You can go into the command line and force a a, you know, a really like a scan or a new reconciliation loop to occur. So it kind of just, I don't want to say this, but it depends on what you're trying to do and what makes sense in your pipeline. Right? So if you're if you're set up where you are tag, if you're doing it based off of image tags, then you probably want to use get ups in a way that you're using the image tags. Right. And the pattern that you've established there, if you're not really doing that and you're more around, like, different branches are mapped to different environments, then triggered off of the correct branch. And that's where the permissions also come into play. Where if you don't want someone to touch production and you've got your getups for your production cluster based off of like uh you know, a main branch, then whoever can push a change to that main branch has the authority to push that change to production. Right? So that's your authentication and permissions um system same for the registry itself. Right. So >>Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, anyone else have any thoughts on that? I was about to go to the next topic, >>I was going to say. I think certain tools dictate the approach, like, if you're using Argosy d it's I think I'm correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only way to use it right now is just through image modification. Like, the manifest changes, it looks at a specific directory and anything changes then it will do its thing. And uh Synchronize the cost there with whatever's and get >>Yeah, flux has both. Yeah, and flux has both. So it it kind of depends. I think you can make our go do that too, but uh this is back to what we were saying in the beginning, uh you know, these things are changing, right? So that might be what it is right now in terms of triggering the reconciliation loops and get ups, tooling, but there might be other events in the future that might trigger it, and it's not completely stand alone because you still need you're tooling to do any kind of testing or whatever you have in terms of like the specific pipeline. So oftentimes you're bolting in getups into some other part of broader Cfd solution. That makes sense. Yeah, >>we've got a lot of questions about secrets or people that are asking about secrets. >>So my my tongue and cheek answered the secrets question was, what's the best practices for kubernetes? Secrets? That's the same thing for secrets with good apps? Uh getups is not last time I checked and last time I was running this stuff get ups is not has nothing to do with secrets in that sense. It's just there to get your stuff running on communities. So, um there's probably a really good session on secrets at dr concept. I >>would agree with you, I agree with you. Yeah, I mean, get off stools, I mean every every project of mine handles secrets differently. Uh huh. And I think I'm not sure if it was even when I was talking to but talking to someone recently that I'm very bullish on get up actions, I love get up actions, it's not great for deployments yet, but we do have this new thing and get hub environments, I think it's called. So it allows me at least the store secrets per environment, which it didn't have the concept of that before, which you know, if you if any of you running kubernetes out there, you typically end up when you start running kubernetes, you end up with more than one kubernetes, like you're going to end up with a lot of clusters at some point, at least many multiple, more than two. Um and so if you're trying to store secret somewhere, you do have and there's a discussion happening in chat right now where people are talking about um sealed secrets which if you haven't heard of that, go look that up and just be versed on what sealed secrets is because it's a it's a fantastic concept for how to store secrets in the public. Um I love it because I'm a big P. K. I nerd but um it's not the only way and it doesn't fit all models. So I have clients that use A W. S. Secrets because they're in A W. S. And then they just have to use the kubernetes external secret. But again like like like normal sand, you know, it's that doesn't really affect get ops, get ops is just applying whatever helm charts or jahmal or images that you're, you're you're deploying, get off. It was more about the approach of when the changes happen and whether it's a push or pull model like we're talking about and you know, >>I would say there's a bunch of prerequisites to get ups secrets being one of them because the risk of you putting a secret into your git repo if you haven't figured out your community secrets architecture and start diving into getups is high and removing secrets from get repose is you know, could be its own industry, right. It's >>a thing, >>how do >>I hide this? How do I obscure this commit that's already now on a dozen machines. >>So there are some prerequisites in terms of when you're ready to adopt get up. So I think is the right way of saying the answer to that secrets being one of them. >>I think the secrets was the thing that made me, you know, like two or three years ago made me kind of see the ah ha moment when it came to get ups which, which was that the premier thing that everyone used to say about get up about why it was great. Was its the single source of truth. There's no state anywhere else. You just need to look at git. Um and then secrets may be realized along with a bunch of other things down the line that is not true and will never be true. So as soon as you can lose the dogmatism about everything is going to be and get it's fantastic. As long as you've understood everything is not going to get. There are things which will absolutely never be and get some tools just don't deal with that. They need to earn their own state, especially in communities, some controls on their own state. You know, cuz sealed secrets and and other projects like SOps and I think there are two or three others. That's a great way of dealing with secrets if you want to keep them in get. But you know, projects like vault more kind of like what I would say, production grade secret strategies. Right? And if you're in AWS or a cloud, you're more likely to be using their secrets. Your secret policy is maybe not dictated by you in large organizations might be dictated by CSO or security or Great. Like I think once if you, if you're trying to adopt getups or you're thinking about it, get the dogmatism of get as a single point of truth out of your mind and think about getups more as a philosophy and a set of best practice principles, then you will be in much better stead, >>right? Yeah. >>People are asking more questions in chat like infrastructure as code plus C d essentially get ups or C I rather, um, these are all great questions and a part of the debate, I'm actually just going to throw up on screen. I'm gonna put this in chat, but this is, this is to me the source, Right? So we worked with when they coined the term. We, a lot of us have been trying to get, if we talk about the history for a minute and then tell me if I'm getting this right. Um, a lot of us were trying to automate all these different parts of the puzzle, but a lot of them, they, some things might have been infrastructure as code. Some things weren't, some things were sort of like settings is coded, like you're going to Jenkins and type in secrets and settings or type in a certain thing in the settings of Jenkins and then that it wasn't really in get and so what we was trying to go for was a way to have almost like eventually a two way state understanding where get might change your infrastructure but then your infrastructure might also change and needs to be reflected in the get if the get is trying to be the single source of truth. Um and like you're saying the reality is that you're never gonna have one repo that has all of your infrastructure in it, like you would have to have, you have to have all your terra form, anything else you're spinning up. Right. Um but anyway, I'm gonna put this link in chat. So this guide actually, uh one of things they talk about is what it's not, so it's, it's kind of great to read through the different requirements and like what I was saying well ago um mhm. Having having ci having infrastructure as code and then trying a little bit of continuous deployment out, it's probably a prerequisite. Forget ops so it's hard to just jump into that when you don't already have infrastructure as code because a machine doing stuff on your behalf, it means that you have to have things documented and somewhere and get repo but let me put this in the in the >>chitty chat, I would like to know if the other panelists agree, but I think get apps is a okay. I would say it's a moderate level, it's not a beginner level communities thing, it's like a moderate level advanced, a little bit more advanced level. Um One can start off using it but you definitely have to have some pre recs in place or some understanding of like a pattern in place. Um So what do the other folks think about that opinion? >>I think if you're if you're trying to use get out before, you know what problem you have, you're probably gonna be in trouble. Right. It's like having a solution to it probably don't have yet. Mhm. Right. I mean if if you're just evil or and you're just typing, keep control apply, you're one person right, Get off. It doesn't seem like a big a big jump, like, I mean it doesn't like why would I do that? I'm just, I'm just gonna inside, it's the type of get commit right, I'm typing Q control apply. But I think one of the rules from we've is none of your developers and none of your admins can have cute control access to the cluster because if you can't, if you do have access and you can just apply something, then that's just infrastructure as code. That's just continuous deployment, that's, that's not really get ops um, getups implies that the only way things get into the cluster is through the get up, get automation that you're using with, you know, flux Argo, we haven't talked about, what's the other one that Victor Farsi talks about, by the way people are asking about victor, because victor would love to talk about this stuff, but he's in my next life, so come back in an hour and a half or whatever and victor is going to be talking about sys, admin list with me. Um >>you gotta ask him nothing but get up questions in the next, >>confuse them, confuse them. But anyway, that, that, that's um, it's hard, it's hard to understand and without having tried it, I think conceptually it's a little challenging >>one thing with getups, especially based off the we've works blog post that you just put up on there. It's an opinionated way of doing something. Uh you know, it's an opinionated way of of delivering changes to an environment to your kubernetes environment. So it's opinionated were often not used to seeing things that are very opinionated in this sense, in the in the ecosystem, but get apps is a opinionated thing. It's it's one way of doing it. Um there are ways to change it and like there are options um like what we were talking about in terms of the events that trigger, but the way that it's structured is an opinion opinionated way both from like a tooling perspective, like using get etcetera, but also from a devops cultural perspective, right? Like you were talking about not having anyone access cube control and changing the cluster directly. That's a philosophical opinion that get ups forces you to adopt otherwise. It kind of breaks the model and um I just I want everyone to just understand that. That is very opinion, anything in that sense. Yeah, >>polygamy is another thing. Infrastructure as code. Um someone's mentioning plummy and chat, I just had actually my life show self plug bread that live go there. I'm on Youtube every week. I did the same thing. These these are my friends um and had palami on two weeks ago uh last week, remember uh and it was in the last couple of weeks and we talked about their infrastructure as code solution. Were actually writing code instead of um oh that's an interesting take on uh developer team sort of owning coding the infrastructure through code rather than Yamil as a data language. I don't really have an opinion on it yet because I haven't used it in production or anything in the real real world, but um, I'm not sure how much they are applying trying to go towards the get up stuff. I will do a plug for Solomon hikes. Who has a, the beginning of the day, it's already happened so you can go back and watch it. It's a, it's a, what's it called? Q. Rethinking application delivery with Q. And build kit. So go look this up. This is the found co founder of Dr and former CTO Solomon hikes at the beginning of the day. He has a tool called dagger. I'm not sure why the title of the talk is delivering with Q. And built it, but the tool is showing off in there for an hour is called dagger. And it's, it's an interesting idea on how to apply a lot of this opinionated automated stuff to uh, to deployment and it's get off space and you use Q language. It's a graph language. I watched most of it and it was a really interesting take. I'm excited to see if that takes off and if they try that because it's another way that you can get a little bit more advanced with your you're get deployments and without having to just stick everything in Yemen, which is kind of what we're in today with helm charts and what not. All right. More questions about secrets, I think. I think we're not going to have a whole lot of more, a lot more about secrets basically. Uh put secrets in your cluster to start with and kubernetes in encrypted, you know, thing. And then, you know, as it gets harder, then you have to find another solution when you have five clusters, you don't wanna have to do it five times. That's when you have to go for Walton A W. S secrets and all >>that. Right? I'm gonna post it note. Yeah. Crm into the cluster. Just kidding. >>Yes, there are recordings of this. Yes, they will be later. Uh, because we're that these are all gonna be on youtube later. Um, yeah, detects secrets cushion saying detect secrets or get Guardian are absolute requirements. I think it's in reference to your secrets comment earlier. Um, Camels asking about Cuban is dropping support for Docker that this is not the place to ask for that, but it, it is uh, basically it's a Nonevent Marantz has actually just created that same plug in available in a different repos. So if you want to keep using Docker and kubernetes, you know, you can do it like it's no big deal. Most of us aren't using doctor in our communities anyway, so we're using like container D or whatever is provided to us by our provider. Um yeah, thank you so much for all these comments. These are great people helping each other and chat. I feel like we're just here to make sure the chats available so people can help each other. >>I feel like I want to pick up on something when you mentioned pollux me, I think there's a um we're talking about getups but I think in the original like the origination of that I guess was deploying applications to clusters right, picking up deployment manifest. But I think with the gloomy and I obviously terra form and things have been around a long time, folks are starting to apply this I think I found one earlier which was like um kub stack the Terror Forms get ups framework. Um but also with the advent of things like cluster A. P. I. Um in the Cuban at the space where you can declare actively build the infrastructure for your clusters and build the cluster right? We're not just talking about deploying applications, the cluster A. P. I will talk to a W. S. Spin up, VPc spin up machines, you know, we'll do the same kind of things that terra form does and and those other tools do I think applying getups principles to the infrastructure spin up right, the proper infrastructure as code stuff, constantly applying Terror form um you know, plans and whatever, constantly applying cluster Api resources spinning up stuff in those clouds. That's a super interesting. Um you know, extension of this area, I'd be curious to see if what the folks think about that. >>Yeah, that's why I picked this topic is one of my three. Uh I got I got to pick the topics. I was like the three things that there like the most bleeding edge exciting. Most people haven't, we haven't basically we haven't figured all this out yet. We as an industry, so um it's I think we're gonna see more ideas on it. Um what's the one with the popsicle as the as the icon victor talks about all the time? It's not it's another getups like tool, but it's um it's getups for you use this kubernetes limit and then we have to look it up, >>You're talking about cross plane. >>So >>my >>wife is over here with the sound effects and the first sound effect of the day that she chooses to use is one. >>All right, can we pick it? Let's let's find another question bret >>I'm searching >>so many of them. All right, so uh I think one really quick one is getups only for kubernetes, I think the main to tooling to tools that we're talking about, our Argosy D and flux and they're mostly geared toward kubernetes deployments but there's a, it seems like they're organized in a way that there's a clean abstraction in with respect to the agent that's doing the deployment and the tooling that that can interact with. So I would imagine that in the future and this might be true already right now that get ups could be applied to other types of deployments at some point in the future. But right now it's mostly focused and treats kubernetes as a first class citizen or the tooling on top of kubernetes, let's say something like how as a first class citizen? Yeah, to Brett, >>to me the field, back to you bret the thing I was looking for is cross plane. So that's another tool. Um Victor has been uh sharing a lot about it in Youtube cross plane and that is basically runs inside a kubernetes, but it handles your other infrastructure besides your app. It allows you to like get ops, you're a W. S stuff by using the kubernetes state engine as a, as a way to manage that. And I have not used it yet, but he does some really great demos on Youtube. So people are liking this idea of get off, so they're trying to figure out how do we, how do we manage state? How do we uh because the probably terra form is that, well, there's many problems, but it's always a lot of problems, but in the get outs world it's not quite the right fit yet, It might be, but you still, it's still largely as expected for people to, you know, like type the command, um, and it keeps state locally the ss, clouds and all that. And but the other thing is I'm I'm now realizing that when I saw the demo from Solomon, I'm going back to the Solomon hikes thing. He was using the demo and he was showing it apply deploying something on S three buckets, employing internet wifi and deploying it on google other things beyond kubernetes and saying that it's all getups approach. So I think we're just at the very beginning of seeing because it all started with kubernetes and now there's a swarm one, you can look up swarm, get office and there's a swarm, I can't take the name of it. Swarm sink I think is what's called swarm sink on git hub, which allows you to do swarm based getups like things. And now we're seeing these other tools coming out. They're saying we're going to try to do the get ups concepts, but not for kubernetes specifically and that's I think, you know, infrastructure as code started with certain areas of the world and then now then now we all just assume that you're going to have an infrastructure as code way of doing whatever that is and I think get off is going to have that same approach where pretty soon, you know, we'll have get apps for all the clouds stuff and it won't just be flexor Argo. And then that's the weird thing is will flex and Argo support all those things or will it just be focused on kubernetes apps? You know, community stuff? >>There's also, I think this is what you're alluding to. There is a trend of using um kubernetes and see rDS to provision and control things that are outside of communities like the cloud service providers services as if they were first class entities within kubernetes so that you can use the kubernetes um focus tooling for things that are not communities through the kubernetes interface communities. Yeah, >>yeah, even criticism. >>Yeah, yeah, I'm just going to say that sounds like cross plane. >>Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that's that's uh there were, you know, for the last couple of years, it's been flux and are going back and forth. Um they're like frenemies, you know, and they've been going back and forth with iterating on these ideas of how do we manage this complicated thing? That is many kubernetes clusters? Um because like Argo, I don't know if the flux V two can do this, but Argo can manage multiple clusters now from one cluster, so your, you can manage other clusters, technically external things from a single entity. Um Originally flux couldn't do that, but I'm going to say that V two can, I don't actually >>know. Um I think all that is gonna, I think that's going to consolidate in the future. All right. In terms of like the common feature set, what Iver and john what do you think? >>I mean, I think it's already begun, right, I think haven't, didn't they collaborate on a common engine? I don't know whether it's finished yet, but I think they're working towards a common getups engine and then they're just going to layer on features on top. But I think, I mean, I think that's interesting, right, because where it runs and where it interacts with, if we're talking about a pull based model, it shouldn't, it's decentralized to a certain extent, right? We need get and we need the agent which is pulling if we're saying there's something else which is orchestrating something that we start to like fuzzy the model even right. Like is this state living somewhere else, then I think that's just interesting as well. I thought flux was completely decentralized, but I know you install our go somewhere like the cargo has a server as well, but it's been a while since I've looked in depth at them. But I think the, you know, does that muddy the agent only pull model? >>I'm reading a >>Yeah, I would say that there's like a process of natural selection going on as as the C. N. C. F. Landscape evolves and grows bigger and a lot of divide and conquer right now. But I think as certain things kind of get more prominent >>and popular, I think >>it starts to trend and it inspires other things and then it starts to aggregate and you know, kind of get back into like a unified kind of like core. Maybe like for instance, cross plane, I feel like it shouldn't even really exist. It should be, it like it's a communities add on, but it should be built in, it should be built into kubernetes, like why doesn't this exist already >>for like controlling a cloud? >>Yeah, like just, you know, having this interface with the cloud provider and be able to Yeah, >>exactly. Yeah, and it kinda, you're right. That kinda happens because you do, I mean when you start talking about storage providers and networking providers was very specific implementations of operators or just individual controllers that do operate and control other resources in the cloud, but certainly not universally right. Not every feature of AWS is available to kubernetes out of the box. Um and you know, it, one of the challenges across plane is you gotta have kubernetes before you can deploy kubernetes. Like there's a chicken and egg issue there where if you're going to use, if you're going to use our cross plane for your other infrastructure, but it's gotta, but it has to run on kubernetes who creates that first kubernetes in order for you to put that on there. And victor talks about one of his videos, the same problem with flux and Argo where like Argo, you can't deploy Argo itself with getups. There has to be that initial, I did a thing with, I'm a human and I typed in some commands on a server and things happened but they don't really have an easy deployment method for getting our go up and running using simply nothing but a get push to an existing system. There's something like that. So it's a it's an interesting problem of day one infrastructure which is again only day one, I think data is way more interesting and hard, but um how can we spend these things up if they're all depending on each other and who is the first one to get started? >>I mean it's true of everything though, I mean at the end of that you need some kind of big bang kind of function too, you know, I started running start everything I >>think without going over that, sorry, without going off on a tangent. I was, I was gonna say there's a, if folks have heard of kind which is kubernetes and Docker, which is a mini kubernetes cluster, you can run in a Docker container or each container will run as a as a node. Um you know, that's been a really good way to spin up things like clusters. KPI because they boot strap a local kind, install the manifests, it will go and spin up a fully sized cluster, it will transfer its resources over there and then it will die itself. Right? So that, that's kind of bootstrapping itself. And I think a couple of folks in the community, Jason to Tiberius, I think he works for Quinyx metal um has, has experimented with like an even more minimal just Api server, so we're really just leveraging the kubernetes ideas of like a reconciliation loop and a controller. We just need something to bootstrap with those C R D s and get something going and then go away again. So I think that's gonna be a pattern that comes up kind of more and more >>Yeah, for sure. Um, and uh, the next, next quick answer to the question, Angel asked what your thoughts on getups being a niche to get or versus others vcs tools? Well, if I knew anyone who is using anything other than get, I would say no, you know, get ops is a horrible name. It should just be CVS office, but that doesn't or vcs ops or whatever like that, but that doesn't roll off the tongue. So someone had to come up with the get ups phrase. Um but absolutely, it's all about version control solutions used for infrastructure, not code. Um might get doctor asks a great question, we're not gonna have time for it, but maybe people can reply and chat with what they think but about infrastructure and code, the lines being blurred and that do develop, how much of infrastructure does developer do developers need to know? Essentially, they're having to know all the things. Um so unfortunately we've had way more questions like every panel here today with all the great community, we've got way more questions we can handle in this time. So we're gonna have to wrap it up and say goodbye. Go to the next live panel. I believe the next one is um on developer, developer specific setups that's gonna be peter running that panel. Something about development in containers and I'm sure it's gonna be great. Just like this one. So let's go around the room where can people find you on the internet? I'm at Brett fisher on twitter. That's where you can usually find me most days you are? >>Yeah, I'm on twitter to um, I'll put it in the chat. It's kind of confusing because the TSR seven. >>Okay. Yeah, that's right. You can't just say it. You can also look at the blow of the video and like our faces are there and if you click on them, it tells you our twitter in Arlington and stuff, john >>John Harris 85, pretty much everywhere. Get hub Twitter slack, etc. >>Yeah >>and normal, normal faults or just, you know, living on Youtube live with Brett. >>Yeah, we're all on the twitter so go check us out there and thank you so much for joining. Uh thank you so much to you all for being here. I really appreciate you taking time in your busy schedule to join me for a little chit chat. Um Yes, all the, all the cheers, yes. >>And I think this kid apps loop has been declarative lee reconciled. >>Yeah, there we go. And with that ladies and gentlemen, uh bid you would do, we will see you in the next, next round coming up next with Peter >>bye.

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. >>This is a cube conversation >>live on. Welcome to the Special Cube Virtual coverage of AWS Summit Online. This is an event of virtual event by AWS. We're covering with the Virtual Cube his Amazon, so it would have no >>looking started. We started. Thank you. Right >>everyone, welcome to this Special Cube. Virtual coverage of the AWS Summit Virtual Online This is an event that Amazon normally has in person in San Francisco, but now it's virtual around the world. Seoul, Korea, in Tokyo, all over the world, in Asia Pacific and in North America, I'm John Furrier Dave Jones Stew Minimum. Let's do We're kicking off aws Virtual with the Cube Virtual. I'm in Palo Alto with the quarantine crew. You're in Massachusetts in Boston when the quarantine crew there still great to have you on to talk about AWS Virtual summit. >>Yeah, John, it's it's great to see you. Ah, it's been ah, you know, interesting times doing all these remote interviews A Z Many of us say I don't blame hotels, but I do miss the communities I do miss the hallway conversation. But great to see you, John. Love the Midnight Madness shirt. We >>want to thank Amazon for stepping up with some sponsorship for allow us to do the Virtual Cube alongside their virtual event because now it's a global community. It's all virtual. There are no boundaries. The Cube has no boundaries to We've got a great program. We have Cory Quinn coming up. Expect to hear from him last week in AWS is known for is a rising star in the community. Certainly Cube guest and also guest host and analyst for the Cube. We spent to hear all the latest from his big zoom post controversy to really what's going on in AWS around what services are hot. I know you're going to a great interview with him, but that's not what Amazon we're seeing a ton of activity, obviously, most recently last week was the jet, I think, which was an agency protest kind of confidential. Microsoft blew that up big time with a post by their worldwide comes person. Frank Shaw countered by Drew Heard Who's the coms globally for end of us and so a war of words is ensuing. This is again pointing to the cloud Native War that's going on with a jet I conference gets Jedi contract a $10 billion which is awards to Microsoft. This shows that the heat is on to do. This is a absolute bloodbath between AWS and Microsoft. We're seeing it play out now virtually with Amazon ai Large scale cloud. This is huge. This is this is another level. A def con one. Basically your thoughts. >>Yeah, John, you know, you've covered this really well and really impressing plot number one you talk about You know, this requirement When AWS launched the govcloud had the CIA as a client early on many years ago. It was the green light for many companies to go from. Wait. Is the club secure enough? Do well, good enough for the federal government in the US It's probably good enough for the enterprise. When Microsoft one jet I they didn't have all the certifications to meet what was in the contract? They had a ticking clock. Make sure that they could meet those security engagements. Aziz. Well, as you know what, one of the pieces the esports that move was working, made a partnership announced with Azure. We know the federal government uses Oracle quite a bit, though they can now run that in azure and not have the penalties from Oracle. So you know that many have said, you know Hey, AWS, why don't you kind of let that one go? You got federal business, but those ripple effect we understand from one contract kind of move things around. >>Well, my take on this is just the tip of the teapot. Either Microsoft's got something that we don't know where they're running scared. My predictions do is that the clock is gonna take out D o. D. Is going award the contract again to Microsoft because I don't think the d. O. D. Wants to change basically on the data that I'm getting from my reporting. And then, ultimately Amazon will keep this going in court because Microsoft has been deficient on winning the deal. That is by the judge and in government contracts. As you know, when you're deficient, you're ineligible. So, essentially on the tech specs, Microsoft failed to meet the criteria the contract and they're deficient. They still can't host top secret content even if they wanted to. This is going to be a game changer when if this comes out to be true, it will be a huge tech scandal. If it's true, then am I gonna have egg on their face? OK, so we passed. This speaks to the large scale problems that are having with Cove it. You're seeing Amazon. They're all working at home, but they still got to run the servers. They >>can do >>it. They got cloud native. You've got Dev ops. But for their customers to be people who are trying to do hybrid. What >>are you >>hearing in terms of the kinds of situations that people are doing? Are they still going to work with maths on our There's still data centers that need to be managed. What >>are >>you hearing in the tech world's do around Covad 19. And as the cloud becomes more apparent, it's obvious that if you're not cloud native, you're going to be on the wrong side of history. Here is pretty obvious. >>Yeah, well, absolutely. John. There there is a bit of a Elwyn behind cloud. Everything from you mentioned work from home. Everybody needs to be on their VPN. They need to access their service access their services where they are. If you've got a global workforce, if you thought that your infrastructure was going to be able to handle that, you might not be in for a WS is meeting that need. There's been some of the cloud providers that have had performance issues have had to prioritize which customers can get access to things AWS standing strong. They're meeting their customers and their answering the call of cloud. You know, we know that AWS puts a huge investment into their environment. If you compare an availability zone from AWS, you know, it is very, very sturdy. It's not just, you know, a you know, a small cluster on. And they say, Hey, we can run all over the place, you know, to be specific It's, you know, John Azure has been having some of those performance issues and has been from concerns. Corey actually wrote a really good article talking about that. It actually put a bad you on public cloud in general. But we know not all public cloud with the same, though, you know, Google has been doing quite well, you know. Managing the demand spike, though, has AWS. Microsoft has needed to respond a little bit. >>It's just mentioned Microsoft's outages. Microsoft actually got caught on eight K filing, which you just have to be going through, and they noticed that they said they had all this up. Time for the cloud. Turns out it wasn't the cloud. It was the teams product. They had to actually put a strike a line through it legally. So a lot of people getting called out, it doesn't matter. It's a crisis. I think that's not gonna be a core issue is gonna be what technology has been needed the most. And I got to ask you still, when was the last time you and I talked about virtual desktops? Because, hey, if you're working at home and you're not at your desk, you need might need some stuff on your desk. This >>is a real issue. >>I mean, it's a >>kind >>of a corner case in tech, but virtual desktops. If >>you're not >>at the office, you need to have that at home. This is a huge issue. It's been a surge >>in demand. Yeah, there were jokes in the community that you know, finally, it's the year of VD I, but desktop as a service. John is an area that took a little while to get going. You know, Dave Volante and I were just having about this. You and Dave interviewed me when Amazon released workspaces, and it was like, Ah, you know, Citrix is doing so well and VD I, you know, isn't the hotness anymore, But that's not service as grown. If you talk about desktop as a service compared to V i p. I is still, you know, a bit of a heavy lift. Even if you've got, you know, hyper converged infrastructure. Roll this out. It's a couple of months to put these whole solutions together. Now, if you have some of that in perspective, can you scale it and you build them up much faster? Yes, you can. But if you're starting to enable your workforce a little bit faster, desktop as a service is going to be faster. AWS has a strong solution with work base. Is it really is that enablement? And it's also putting pressure on the SAS providers. One. They need scale and do they need to be responsive that some of their customers need to scale up really fast and some of them dial things down. Always worry about some of these on track that the SAS providers, but you in. So you know, customers need to make sure they're being loud and clear with their providers. If you need help. If you need to adjust something, you know, push back on them because they should be responsive because we know that there is a broad impact on this. But it will not be a permanent impact, though you know, these are the times that companies need to work closely with customers because otherwise you will. You will either make a customer for life, or you will have somebody that will not be saying about you for a long >>while. Still, let's just quickly run through some of the highlights so far on the virtual conference virtual event. Aussie Amazon Pre announced last month the Windows Migration Service, which has been a big part of their business. They've been doing it for 11 years, so we're gonna have an interview with an AWS person to talk about that also app Flows announced as well as part of the virtual kind of private, you know, private checks. So you're seeing that right here. Large scale data lakes breaking down those silos, moving data from the cloud from the console into the top. Applicants like Salesforce is a big one. That was kind of pre announced. The big story here is the Kendra availability and the augmented AI availability. Among other things, this is the big story. This kind of shows the Amazon track record they pre announced at reinvent, trying to run as fast as they can to get it shipping the focus of AI. The focus of large scale capacity, whether it's building on top of GC, too. Server list. Lambda ai. All this is kind of coming together data, high capacity, operational throughput and added value. That seems to be the highlights. Your reaction? >>Yeah, John, You know, at flow is an interesting one. We were just talking about asp providers. An area that we've been spending a lot of time talking with. The system is you know, my data is all over the place, you know? Yes, there's my data centers public, but there's all of these past provides. So, you know, if I have data in service now, I have it in workday. I have a sales force you know, how do I have connectors there? How do I You're that How do I protect that, though? Amazon, you know, working with a broad ecosystem and helping to pull that together. Eyes definitely an interesting one. What? Kendra definitely been some good buzz in the ecosystem for a while. They're You know, the question is on natural language processing and a I, you know, where are the customers with these deployments? Because some of them, if they're a little bit more long term, Egypt might be the kind of projects that get put on pause rather than the ones that are critical for me to run the business today. >>And I just did a podcast with the VM ware ecosystem last week talking about which projects will be funded. Which ones won't. It brings up this new virtual work environment where, you know, some people are going to get paid and some people aren't. If you're not core to the enterprise, you're probably not going to get paid. If you're not getting a phone call to come into work, you're probably gonna get fired. So there will be project that will be cut and projects that will be funded certainly virtual events, which I want to talk to you about in a minute to applications that are driving revenue and or engagement around the new workforce. So the virtualization of business is happening now. We joke because we know server virtualization actually enabled the cloud. Right? So I think there's going to be a huge Cambrian explosion of applications. So I want to get your thoughts. The folks you've been talking to the past few months, what are you hearing in terms of those kinds of projects that people will be leaning into and funding versus ones they might put on hold? Have you heard anything? >>Yeah. Well, you know, John, it's interesting when you go back at its core, what is AWS and they want to enable built. So, you know, the last couple of years we've been talking about all of the new applications that will get built. That's not getting put on hold, Jones. You know it. What? I do not just to run the business but grow the business. I need the We'll have applications at the core of what we do. Data and applications, Really. Or what? Driving companies today. So that piece is so critically important and therefore AWS is a very strategic partner there. >>I'm saying the same things Do I think the common trend that I would just add to that would be I'm seeing companies looking at the covert crisis is the opportunity and frankly in some cases, an excuse to lay people off, and that's kind of you're seeing some of that. But the >>end of >>the day that people are resetting, reinventing and then putting new growth strategies together that still doesn't change business still needs to get done. So great point. It's to virtual events were here with the AWS summit. Normally run the show floor. The Cube. We're here with the Virtual Cube doing our virtual thing. It's been interesting to a lot of our events have converted to virtual. Some have been canceled, but most of them have been been running on the virtual. We've been plugged in, but the cube is evolving, and I want to get your thoughts on how you see the Cube evolving. I've been getting a lot of questions that came again on the VM Ware community podcast. How is the Cube morphed and I know that we've been working hard with a lot of our customers. How have we evolved? Because we're >>in the >>middle of this digital way, this virtualization away. The Cube is in there. We've been successful. That's been different use cases. Some have been embedded into the software. Amazon's got their own run a show. But events are more than just running the show content. >>Yeah, more John, >>more community behind us to your thoughts and how well Cube has evolved. And what are you seeing? >>I'm glad, John. You just mentioned community. So you know, you and I have talked many times on air that, you know, the Cube is much network in the community as it is a media company. So, you know, first of all, it's been so heartening over the last couple of months that we've been putting out. We're still getting some great feedback from the community. One of things I personally miss is, you know, when we step off the stage and you walk the hallway and you bump into people that know when they ask your questions were you know, they share some of the things that they're going through. That data that we always look for is something we still need. So I'm making sure that reach out to friends, you know, diving back into the social channels to make sure that we understand the pulse of what's going on. But you know, John, you know, our community has always been online, though a big piece of the Cube is relatively unchanged. Other than we're doing all the interviews, we have to deal with everyone's home systems in home network. Every once in a while you hear a dog barking in the background or, you know, a child running, but it actually humanized. So there's that opportunity or the communities to rally together. Some of my favorite interviews have been, you know, the open source communities that are gathering together toe work on common issues, a lot of them specifically for the global endemic, you know, And so there are some really good stories out there. I worry when you talk about companies that are think, Hey, this There have been so many job losses in this pandemic that it just is heartbreak. So, you know, we've loved when the tech community is helping to spur new opportunities, great new industries. I had a great interview that I did with our friends from a cloud guru, and they've seen about a 20 to 30% increase on people taking the online training. And one of the main things that they're taking training on is the one on one courses on AWS on Google and on Azure, as well as an interesting point. John, they said, Multi cloud is something that come up. So you know, 2020 we've been wondering. Is aws going to admit that multi cloud is a thing, or are they going to stick with their hybrid message and, you know, as their partners not talk about? It's >>been interesting on the virtual queue because we and Amazon's been a visionary and this leading Q B virtual with them. It's become a connective tissues to between the community. And if you think about how much money the companies they're saving by not running the physical events and with the layoffs, as you mentioned, I think that could be an opportunity for the Cube to be that connective tissue to bring people together. I think that's the mission that we hope will unfold, but ultimately, digital investments will probably go up from this. I'm seeing a lot of great conversion around. Okay, So the content, What does it mean to me? Is that my friend group are my friends involved? How do I learn? How do I discover? How do I connect? And I think the interesting thing about the Cube is we've seen that up front. And I think there's a positive sign of heads do around virtualization of the media and the community. And I think it's going to be economic opportunity. And I hope that we could help people find either jobs or ways to re engage and reconnect. So again, reinvents coming. You got VM World. All >>these big shows do They dropped so much cash. Can you answer? They >>put all that cash with the community. I think that's a viable scenario. >>Yeah. No, Absolutely. John. There there is, you know, big money and events, you know? Yes, there are less cost. They're also, you know, almost none of them are charging for people to attend, and very few of them are urging the bunker. So, you know, big shift in and how we have to look at these. It needs to be a real focus on content. I mean from our standpoint, John, from day one. We've been doing this a decade now. In the early days when it was a wing and a prayer on the technology, it was always about the content. And the best people help extract that signal from the noise. So, you know, some things have changed the mission overall days. >>And you know what? Amazon is being humble. They're saying we're figuring it out. Of course, we're psyched that we're there with the Virtual Cube students do. Thanks for spending the time kicking off this virtual coverage wrap up. Not >>as good as face to face. >>Love to be there on site. But I think it's easy to get guests used to in the virtual world. But we're gonna go to a hybrid as soon as it comes back to normal. Sounds like clouds to public hybrid virtual. There it is too. Thanks so much. Okay, that's the cube coverage for AWS Summit. Virtual online. That's the Cube virtual coverage. I'm sure. First Amendment, Thanks for watching. Stay tuned for the next segment. Yeah, >>yeah, yeah, yeah

I'd say for me it's called it's really the power of the of the better together you know to me it's nobody's great apart it takes really an ecosystem of players to kind of work together for the customer benefit and the one that we've demonstrated the VMware with NetApp plus VMware has been a powerful one for well well over 17 years and the person they're putting in terms of the joint customers that have a ton of loyalty to both of us and they want us just to work it out so you know whether you're whether your allegiance on one side of the kubernetes community's battle or another or you're on one side of anyone's you know storage choice or another and I think customers want NetApp and VMware to work this out and in como solutions and we've done that and now what we for the second activist to come out will start that tomorrow I mean to me it starts from what the customer would like to do right and what what we're seeing from customers is it's increasingly a multi cloud world right that expands spans private cloud public cloud and Ed you're smiling when I yeah now there's an opportunity yeah but it's a chance for customers right and so if you look at how VMware is trying to help their meso sort of square the circle I think the first piece is this idea of consistent operations right then we have these management tools that you can use to consistently operate those environments whether they're based on a VMware based infrastructure or whether they're based on a native cloud infrastructure right so if you look at our cloud health platform for example it's a great example where that service can help you under get visibility to your cloud spend across different cloud platforms also be store based platforms and can help you reduce that spend over time so that's sort of what we refer to as consistent operations right which can span any any cloud you know my team is responsible for is more in that consistent infrastructure space and that's really all about how do we deliver consistent compute network and storage service that spans on from multiple public clouds an edge so that's really where we're bringing that same VMware cloud foundation stacked all those different environments you know the networking folks and networking was always relegated to being the underlay or the plumbing now what's becoming important is that the application are making their intent aware to the network and the intent is becoming aware as the intern becomes aware we networking people know what to do in the Estevan layer which then shields all the intricacies of what needs to get done in the underlay so to put it in very simple terms the container is what really drives the need and what we're doing is we're building the outcome to satisfy that need now containers are critical because as Pat was saying you know all of the new digital applications are going to be built with containers in mind so the reason we call it client to cloud to containers because the containers can literally be anywhere you know we're talking about them in the private cloud and in the public cloud they could be right next to where the client is because of the edge cloud they could be in the telco network which is the telco cloud so between these four clouds you literally have a network of these containers and the underlying infrastructure that we are doing is to provide that Estevan layer that will get the containers to talk to one another as well as to talk to the clients that are getting access to those application yeah I mean more than McAfee I think you know you you it's sort of you think of the and the the analog analog to cloud Security's data center security where you think of this sort of Amazon Cloud living in an Amazon datacenter and you know how can we protect that you know the data and the egress access into those cloud and you know same technology sort of apply but to your point that you sort of just touched upon its that cloud is not living in isolation right first of all that Amazon Cloud is connected to a whole bunch of you know applications that are still sitting in a data center right so they may not they're potentially not moving the Oracle database today since they're moving some workloads to the cloud right that's what most most companies are hey guess what there's all these endpoints that are connecting they're connecting both the data center and the cloud you're not gonna proxy to the cloud to get to the data center so there is a gateways so to me cloud security can't be an isolated you know sort of technology that companies have to sort of think about now is there is there opportunity to leverage the cloud to manage security better and get visibility in their security environments to do security analytics absolutely so I think to me that's where it's going because security I think has been proven is no longer you know sort of one thing single thing it's just you have to do multiple things every time I go talk to CIA source they tell me they got this technology that I said he made a minute you you have 20 did you cut down any yeah we've cut down a few but you know they just nervous about cutting down too much because if that one piece of software gets Paul so look I mean I think we again we're kind of really evolving our strategic aims you know historically we've looked at how do we really virtual eyes an entire data center right this concept of the software-defined data center really automating all that and driving great speed efficiency increases and now as we've been talking about we're in this world where you kind of STD sees everywhere right on pram and the cloud different public clouds and so how do you really manage across all those and these are the things we've been talking about so the cloud marketplace fits into that whole concept in the sense that now we can get people one place to go to get easy access to both software and solutions from our partners as well as open source solutions and these are things that come from the bitNami acquisition that we recently did so the idea here is that we cannot make it super simple for customers to become aware of the different solutions to draw those consistent operations that exists on top of our platform with our partners and then make it really easy for them to consume those as well I think we've really broaden and expanded our reach over the last ten years it used to be we're known primarily for our sports programming so now we have inclusive education and health programs we're being able to bring together people with and without intellectual disabilities through those mediums so we've divided resources to schools and education and they run Special Olympics programming during the school day so educators wanna have us because we're improving school clamp campuses reducing bullying enhancing social-emotional learning and so the work that we're doing is so so critical with that community then the air if health we have inclusive health so now we've got health and medical professionals that are now providing health screenings for our athletes so some of the the younger volunteers that we get that are there wanting to make a career in in the medical field they're exposed to our population right and so they learn more about their specific health needs so it's really about changing people's attitudes and so this community of supporters volunteers health Vettel's education were really our goal is to change people's attitudes fundamentally worldwide about people with intellectual disabilities and really kind of produce inclusive mindsets we call it really promote understanding and so now that the the road map that was shared in terms of what VMware looks to do to integrate containers into the ESXi platform itself right it's you know managing VMs and containers Nextiva that's perfect in terms of not having customers have to pick or choose between which platform and where you're gonna deploy something allow them to say you can deploy on whichever format you want it runs in the same ecosystem and management and then that trickles down to the again your storage layer so we do a lot of object storage within the container ecosystems today a lot of high-performance objects because you know the the the file sizes of instances or applications is much larger than you know a document file that URI might create online so there's a big need around performance in that space along with again management at scale the whole multi cloud hybrid cloud movement what's going on out at the enterprise your perspective on kind of where we are in that shift if you will or that transformation and and what's what's driving it you know what's what's creating all the bang you get that question a lot right people ask me what inning are we in question you know it's a regular you know I would say a couple years ago you know as people said I don't think that I think the national anthem is still being played kind of thing you know and I think the game has probably started you know but but I still were think for very early innings and you know I think I'd actually bring it up to even a higher level and talk about what's happening in terms of how companies are thinking about digital transformation and it would I what I think is happening is it's becoming a board level priority for companies they can't afford to ignore it you know digital is changing the Commun obey suspended of advantage in most industries around the globe and so they're investing in digital transformation and I think they're going to do that frankly independent of whatever macroeconomic climate we operate in and so and I think you know the big driving force probably you know in digital transformation today the cloud and so and what we're seeing is there's a you know it's a particular architecture of choice that's emerging for customers yep and I think you know you hit the nail on the head networking has changed it's no longer about speeds and feeds it's about availability and simplicity and so you know Dell and VMware I think are uniquely positioned to deliver a level of automation where this stuff just works right I don't need to go and configure these magic boxes individually I want to just write you know a line of code where my infrastructure is built into the CI CD pipeline and then when I deploy a workload it just works I don't need an army of people to go figure that out right and and I think that's the power of what we're working together to unleash so that was pretty dramatic moment of truth when we deployed atrium and we started the imaging process and it was finished and to be honest I thought that is broken but it actually was that fast so gave us a tremendous amount of I mean ability to deploy and manage and do the work during the workday instead of working after hours and what we doing for data protection before date really we use variety of different solutions backups just to tape and variety of services that actually backed up are they still do or know we've given that a lot up the floor of all the legacy stuff it got rid of that did you have to change your processes or what was that like Wow info we have to we have to get rid of a lot of process they were focused on backup focus on a time that it took to manage backup with atrium date reom didn't have the backup from the day one this is something that they designed I think a second year and that was very different to see the company that deals with storage creating such an innovative vision for developing old I mean developing a roadmap that was actually coming true with every iteration of the software deployment so the second tier that we provisioned was the snapshot and the snapshots that were incredibly fast that didn't take a lot of space that was you know give us ability to restore almost instantly gave us a huge amount of you know focus on not focusing and on storage anymore well since we're here at vmworld right you know be immoral has about 70 million work I think it's actually bigger than the public cloud I you correct me if I'm wrong right uh yeah I mean the I look I'm premise way bigger than the public cloud I have no question exactly and and and what's happening of course is faster sorry but the line is blurring between you know what's a public cloud what's a you know hybrid cloud multi-cloud edge and so look our opportunity is to really make all that go away for customers and allow them to choose and express our unique value add in whatever form the customer wants to use it so you've seen us align with all the public clouds you know you're seeing us take steps in the edge we're continuing to improve the on-premise systems you know with project dimension now it's the VMware cloud on Dell EMC that we're managing for you and it's on demand its consumption and it's consumed just like a public cloud I spend about 50 percent of my time talking to these customers so we learn a lot and here are the four big challenges they're facing first is the explosion of data data is just growing so fast Gartner estimates they'll be a hundred and seventy-five zettabytes of data in 2025 if you cram that into iphone so you take two point six trillion iPhones and go to the Sun and back right it's an enormous amount of data second they're worried about ransomware it's not a question of if you'll be attacked it's when you'll be attacked look at what's happening in Texas right now with the 22 municipalities dealing with that what you want in that case is a resilient infrastructure you want to be the ripples to restore from a really good backup copy of data third they want the hybrid multi cloud world just like Pat Gelson juror has been talking about that's what customers want but they want to be able to protect their data wherever it is make it highly available and get insights in their data wherever it's located and then finally they're dealing with this massive growth in government regulations around the world because of this concern about privacy I was in Australia a few weeks ago and one of our customers she was telling me that she deals with 27 different regulatory environments another customer was saying that California Privacy Act will be the death of him and he's based in st. Louis right so our strategy is focused on taking away the complexity and helping the largest companies in the world deal with these challenges and that's why we introduced the enterprise data services platform and that's why we're here at VMworld talking kubernetes the technology enabler I mean tcp/ip was that in the old networking days it enabled a lot of shifts in the industry you were far that way yeah kubernetes that disruptive enabler yeah I really see it as one of those key transition points in the industry and as I sort of joked if my name was Scott and we were 20 years ago I'd be banging the table calling it Java and Java defined enterprise software development for two decades by the way Scott's my neighbor he's down the hill so I looked down on mr. McNeely I always liked but you know the you know it changed how people did enterprise software development for the last two decades and kubernetes has that same kind of transformative effect but maybe even more important it's not just development but also operations and I think that's what we're uniquely bring together with project Pacific really being able to bridge those two worlds together so you know and if we deliver on this you know I think it is you know that X decade or two will be the center of innovation for us how we bridge those two roles together and really give developers what they need and make it operator friendly out-of-the-box across the history to the future this is pretty powerful yes so this conference is is I think a refreshing return to form so VMware is as you say this is an operators conference and VMware is for operators it's not for devs there was a period there where cloud was scary and and it was all this cloud native stuff and VMware tried to appeal to this new market and I guess tried to dress up and as something that it really wasn't and it didn't pull it off and we didn't it didn't feel right and now VMware has decided that well no actually this is what VMware is about and no one can be more VMware than VMware so it's returning to being its best self and I think against software they know software they know software so the the addition of putting project hands are in and having kubernetes in there and and it's it's to operate the software so it's it's going to be in there and apps will run on it and they want to have kubernetes baked into vSphere so that now yeah we'll have new app new apps and yeah there might be sass ups for the people who are consuming them but they've got to run somewhere and now we could run them on vmware whether it's on site at the edge could be in the cloud your vmware on AWS steve emotions [Music] you

>>Live from Denver, Colorado. It's the cube covering comm vault. Go 2019 brought to you by Combolt. >>Hey, welcome back to the cubes coverage of combo go 19. Stu Miniman is here with me, Lisa Martin and we are wrapping up two days of really exciting wall to wall coverage of the new vault and we're very pleased to welcome a couple of special guests onto the program. To help us wrap up our two days, we have Miranda foster, the vice president of worldwide communications for comm vault and Al Bunty is here, the co founder, former COO and board member. Welcome Miranda and Al. Great to have you on the program. Thanks Lisa. So a lot of energy at this event and I don't think it has anything to do with our rarefied air here in the mile high city. Al, let's start with you. >>Well, there's other things in Colorado. >>There are, yeah, they don't talk about it. They talked about that on stage yesterday. So owl, you have been with convo ball as I mentioned, co-founder. What an evolution over the last 20 years. Can you take us back? >>Surely. So, um, yeah and it's been, it's, it's really kind of cool to see it coming together at this point. But if you go back 20 years when we started this, the whole idea was around data. And remember we walked into a company that was focused on optical storage. Um, we decided it would be a good company to invest in. Um, for two reasons. One, we thought they were really great people here, very creative and innovative and two, it was a great space. So if we believed we believe data would grow and that was a pretty decent thesis to go with. Yeah. And then, then it started moving from there. So I tell people I wasn't burdened with facts so I didn't understand why all these copies were being made of the same set of data. So we developed a platform and an architecture focused on indexing it so you just index at once and then could use it for many different purposes. >>And that just kept moving through the years with this very data centric approach to storage, management, backup protection, etc. It was all about the data. I happened to be lucky and said, you know, I think there's something to this thing called NAS and sand and storage networks and all those things. And I also said we have to plan for fur on scale on our solution of a million X. Now it was only off a magnitude of about a thousand on that, but it was the right idea. You know, you had to build something to scale and, and we came in and we wanted to build a company. We didn't want to just flip a company but we thought there is a longterm vision in it and if you take it all the way to the present here it's, it's really, um, it's, it feels really good to see where the company came from. It's a great foundation and now it will propel off this foundation, um, with a similar vision with great modern execution and management. >>Yeah. Al, when we had the chance to talk with you last year at the show in Nashville, it was setting up for that change. So I want to get your view there. There are some things that the company was working on and are being continued, but there's some things that, you know, Bob hammer would not have happened under his regime. So want to get your viewpoint as to the new Convolt, you know, what, what is, what are some of those new things that are moving forward with the company that might not have in the previous days? >>Yeah, that's a good questions. Do I think Mo, a lot of the innovation that you've seen here, um, would have happened maybe not as quickly. Um, we, the company obviously acquired Hedvig. Uh, we were on a very similar path but to do it ourselves. So you had kind of been a modern, we need to get to market quicker with some real pros. I think, um, the, the evolution of redoing sales management essentially was probably the biggest shift that needed to be under a new regime, if you will. Yeah. >>So Miranda, making these transitions can be really tricky from a marketing standpoint. Talk, talk us through a bit, some of the, how do you make sure trusted yet innovative and new that you've accomplished at this show? >>Well, trust it is obviously the most important because the Bob, the brand that Bob and Al built really embodies reliability for what we provide to our customers. I mean that's what gives them the peace of mind to sleep at night. But I'll tell you, Sanjay has been with us for just eight months now, February of 2019 and it's been busy. We've done a lot of things from a points on J transition with Bob and now to his point we've, we've acquired Hedvig, we've introduced this new SAS portfolio and you're exactly right. What we need to do is make sure that the reliability that customers have come to rely on Convolt for translates into what we're doing with the new Convolt and I think we've done a really good job. We've put a lot of muscle behind making sure, particularly with metallic that it was tried, it was trusted, it was beta tested, we got input from customers, partners, industry influencers. We really built it around the customer. So I think the brand that comm brings will translate well into the things that we've done with these, with these new shifts and movements within the company >>on, on that questions too as well. Um, I think Miranda is a good example of somebody that was with the company before a tremendous talent. She's got new opportunities here and she's run with it. So it's kinda that balance of some, uh, understood the fundamentals and the way we're trying to run the business. And she's grasped the new world as well. So, >>and Rob as well, right? Robin in his new, >>yeah, that's another good point. So that was all part of the transitioning here and Sanjay and the team had been very careful on trying to keep that balance. >>Change is really difficult anywhere, right? Dissect to any element of life. And you look at a business that's been very successful, has built a very strong, reliable brand for 20 years. Big leadership changes, not just with Sanjay, but all of the leadership changes. You know, analysts said, all right, you've got to upgrade your Salesforce. We're seeing a lot of movement in the area. You got to enhance your marketing. We're seeing metallic has the new routes to market, new partner focus, so PSI focuses. We're also seeing this expansion in the market, so what folks were saying, you know a year ago come on is answering in a big way and to your point in a fast way that's not easy to do. You've been here nine years since the beginning. Can you give us a little bit of a perspective, Miranda, about some of the things that were announced at the show? >>How excited everybody is, customers, partners, combo folks. How do you now extend the message and the communications from go globally after the show ends? That's an awesome question. I'm really passionate about this. So you know, Monday we announced metallic, we announced a new head of channels and alliances and Mercer Rowe, we had crazy technology innovation announcements with activate, with the acceleration of the integration with Hedvig with the momentum release that we put out today. We're also doing cool stuff with our corporate social responsibility in terms of sponsoring the new business Avengers coalition. That's something that Chris Powell is really championing here at, at the show and also within combo. So we're very excited about that. And then when you add people like yourselves, you know the tech field day folks, because not everybody can be here, right? Not everybody can be at go. So being able to extend the opportunity for, for folks to participate in combo, go through things like the cube through things like tech field day and using our social media tools and just getting all of the good vibes that are here. Because as Al says, this really is an intimate show, but we try to extend that to anybody who wants to follow us, to anybody who wants to be a part of it. And that's something that we've really focused on the last couple of years to make sure that folks who aren't here can, can get an embrace the environment here at Commonweal go. >>It's such an important piece that you're here helping with the transition I talked about. It's important that some of the existing >>get new roles and do responsibility going forward. What's your role going to be and what should we expect to see from you personally? Somebody has got to mow the lawn. >>Yeah. >>But yes, do I, I'll stay on the board. Um, we're talking through that. I think I'll be a very active board, not just the legal side of the equation. Um, try and stay involved with customers and, and strategies and, and even, uh, potential acquisitions, those kinds of things. Um, I'm also wandering off into the university environment. Uh, my Alma mater is a university of Iowa. I'm on the board there and uh, I'm involved in setting up innovation centers and entrepreneurial programs and that kind of thing. Um, I'll keep doing my farming thing and uh, actually have some ideas on that. There's a lot of technology as you guys know, attacking Nat space. So, and like I said, I'll try to keep a lot of things linked back into a combo. >>What Al can have confidence in is that I will keep him busy. So there's that. And then I will also put on the table, we agree to disagree with our college athletic loyalties. So I'm a big kid just because we don't compete really. Right. So I mean, but if I won Kansas wherever to play, then we would just politely disagree. Yeah. Well that's good that you have this agreement in place. I would love to get some anecdotal feedback from you of some of the things that you've heard over the last three days with all this news, all these changes. What are you hearing from customers and partners who you've had relationships with for a very long time? >>I think they're, I think they're all really excited, but, and maybe I'm biased, but they liked the idea that we're trying to not throw out all the old focus on customers, focus on technologies, continue the innovation. I'm pleased that we, Miranda and the team started taking this theme of what we do to a personal level, you know, recovery and those kinds of things. It isn't just the money in the business outages. It's a really a effect on a personal lives. And that resonates. I hear that a lot. Um, I asked our bigger customers and they've loved us for our support, how we take care of them. The, the intimacy of the partnership, you know, and I think they feel pleased that that's staying yet there's lot of modern Emity if that's a good word. I think fokai was what you, I think it's the blend of things and I think that really excites people. >>We've heard that a lot. You guys did a great job with having customers on stage and as a marketer who does customer marketing programs, I think there's nothing more validating than the voice of a customer. But suddenly today that I thought was a pivot on that convo, did well as Sonic healthcare was on main stage. And then he came onto the program and I really liked how he talked about some of the failures that they've been through. You know, we had the NASA talking yesterday, NASA, 60 years young, very infamous, probably for failure is not an option, but it is a very real possibility whether you're talking about space flight or you're talking about data protection and cyber attacks and the rise of that. And it was really, I'd say, refreshing to hear the voice of a customer say, these are the areas in which we failed. This is how come they've helped us recover and how much better and stronger are they? Not just as a company as Sonic healthcare, but even as an individual person responsible for that. That was a really great message that you guys were able to extend to the audience today and we wanted to get that out. >>I loved that as well. I think that was good. I have also back on driving innovation, I always felt one of my biggest jobs was to not punish people that failed. Yeah. I, you know, with the whole engineering team, the bright people in marketing, I, I would be very down on them if they didn't try, but I never wanted them to feel bad about trying and never punish them. >>And one of the things Matthew said on main stage, first of all, I love him. He's great. He's been a longtime CommonWell supporter. I love his sense of humor. He said, you know, combo came to me and said, can you identify, you know, your biggest disaster recovery moment? And he was like, no, because there's so many. Yes. Right? Like there's so many when you're responsible for this. It's just the unpredictability of it is crazy. And so he couldn't identify one, but he had a series of anecdotes that I think really helped the audience identify with and understand this is, these are big time challenges that we're up against today. And hearing his use case and how con ball is helping him solve his heart problems, I think was really cool. You're right. I loved that too. He said, I couldn't name one. There are so many. That's reality, right? As data proliferates, which every industry is experiencing, there's a tremendous amount of opportunity. There's also great risk as technology advances for good. The bad actors also have access to that sort of technology. So his honesty, I thought was, was refreshing, but spot on. And what a great example for other customers to listen to the RA. To your point, I, if I punish people for failure, we're not going to learn from it. >>Yeah, you'll never move forward. >>Miranda. So much that we learn this week at the shows. Some, a lot of branding, a lot of customers, I know some people might be taking a couple of days off, but what should we expect to be seeing from con vault post go this year, >>continue to innovation. We're not letting our foot off the gas at all. Just continuing innovation as as as we integrate with Hedvig continued acceleration with metallic. I mean those guys are aggressive. They were built as a startup within an enterprise company built on Comvalt enterprise foundation. Those guys are often running, they are motivated, they're highly talented, highly skilled and they're going to market with a solution that is targeted at a specific market and those guys are really, really ready to go. So continued innovation with Hedvig integrate, sorry, integration with Hedvig with metallic. I think you're just going to be seeing a lot more from Combalt in the future on the heels of what we consider humbled, proud leadership with the Gartner magic quadrant. You know the one two punch with the Forrester wave. I think that you're just going to be seeing a lot more from Combalt and in terms of how we're really getting out there and aggressive. And that's not to mention Al, you know what we do with our core solutions. I mean today we just announced a bunch of enhancements to the core technology, which is, which is the bread and butter of, of what we do. So we're not letting the foot off the gas to be sure >>the team stay in really, really aggressive too. And the other thing I'd add as a major investor that I'm expecting is sales. Now I'd love to just your, your final thoughts that the culture of Convolt because while there's some acceleration and there's some change, I think some of the fundamentals stay the same. Yeah, it's, it's right to, and again, that's why I feel we're at a good point on this transition process. You alluded to it earlier, but I feel really good about the leadership that's in, they've treated me terrifically. I'm almost almost part of the team. I love that they're, they're trying to leverage off all the assets that were created in his company. Technology, obviously platform architecture, support base, our support capabilities. I, I told Sandy today I wish she really would have nailed the part about, and by the way, support and our capabilities with customers as a huge differentiator and it was part of our original, Stu knows he's heard me forever. Our original DNA, we wanted to focus on two things. Great technology, keep the great technology lead and customer support and satisfaction. So those elements, now you blend that stew with really terrific Salesforce. As Ricardo says, have you guys talk with Ricardo soon? But anyway, the head of sales is hiring great athletes, particularly for the enterprise space. Then you take it with a real terrific marketing organization that's focused, Oh, had modern techniques and analytics on all those things. You know, it's, it's in my opinion, as an investor especially, I'm expecting really good things >>bar's been set well. I can't think of a better way for Sue and me to our coverage owl veranda. Thank you. This has been fantastic. You've got to go. You get a lawn to mow, you've got a vacation to get onto and you need some wordsmithing would focus your rights. You have a flight ticket. They do five hours. Hi guys. Thank you. This has been awesome. Hashtag new comm vault for our guests and I, Lisa Martin, you've been watching the cubes coverage of Convault go and 19 we will see you next time.

>> Narrator: Live from Denver, Colorado, it's theCUBE. Covering Commvault Go 2019. Brought to you by Commvault. (upbeat electronic music) >> Hey, welcome back to theCUBE. Lisa Martin with Stu Miniman. We are covering Commvault Go '19 from Colorado and Stu and I are pleased to welcome a couple of guys back to theCUBE. We've got David Wigglesworth, a VP, now VP of Global Sales and Emerging Technologies at Commvault for what, a couple weeks now David? >> About a month and five days. >> About a month, and look who's back, it's Don Foster, VP of Storage Solutions, >> Great to be back. from the Keynote stage, welcome back Don. >> Thank you very much. >> Don, and we appreciate you bringing your own personal makeup artist, Sanjay Merchandandi, >> Yeah. >> A man of many skills. >> Indeed. (laughing) >> He really is. So if this whole, like, CEO thing doesn't work, he's clearly got a career in, you know, touch-up makeup. >> In makeup. >> Yeah, all right, so Wigs we'll start with you, you've got a cool nickname, so I got to use it. You've been here for about a month or so. This is a new Commvault. We've heard a lot in the last two days. A lot of news, a lot of leadership changes, obviously, go-to-market changes, new partner offerings, lots of stuff. Tell us first, before we dig in, what attracted you to Commvault? >> That's a pretty easy question to answer, it's the leadership. So, obviously I'm very familiar with Commvault. I've competed with them in my past career. Always been a very formidable competitor. When you walked into an account in my previous life and they said they had Commvault, you usually kind-of wiped your brow, and thought 'Oh okay, I've got to find something else here to talk about' but in all seriousness, for me it was, you know, when I first noticed in the News that Sanjay had come onboard. That peaked my interest, because obviously I knew Sanjay in my previous life at EMC and at VMware. And then when I watched Ricardo join the company, I was like, okay, this is something I really need to dig into. And so when I had the opportunity to meet with them and understand the direction of where they want to take the company, which was also already just a phenomenal IT organization, just a pillar in the IT community, with what the founders were able to do in relatively short amount of time. I was really excited to be able to come over and be a part of it. >> Wigs, you've got a emerging tech under your purview, tell us a little bit about what that's going to mean in your role. >> Right now it means I'm head big, right? So, by now, everyone's heard of the acquisition that was made. That was the other thing also that really interested me, was that technology because I really think that's where the market is going and I just felt like it was a great addition to the Commvault family of products. But it's a different technology. It's calling on a different set of folks with inside of an account and it's primarily an enterprise play. It can be a go-down-market a little bit, and enterprise's is kind of where I spent the last several years of my career, the last 20 or so (laughs) and so what we've decided to do is, because it's so different, we've decided for the time being, that we were going to create a special aid organization globally to go sell that solution so that our existing core sellers can focus on our existing set of products, right? That we can be a specialist organization that can help them with their customers, selling all of the additional emerging tech, right? And so, here at the show, we've obviously spent time talking about Hedvig. Metallic is another new technology for us. Now Metallic is going to handled differently, but as we continue to grow our emerging technologies from the traditional core Commvault family of products, that's what I'm going to be focused on. So it'll begin with Hedvig. >> So for the role that you're in now, you said about a month or so, are you bringing in a brand-new sales overlay team? Are you guys hiring like crazy or are some of the Commvault OG sales-guys-or-girls shifting up, we'll say? >> For the most part, we're bringing in new talent. We're looking for people that have a broad spectrum of the experience, right. Obviously someone with strong storage background, but also people that know virtualization code, people that understand containers. Those skillsets are really important to us. And so we're busy building out both an America sales team and also building out a Nemea sales team. And then my partner, I call him my partner-in-crime, Ediz. Ediz is building out our SE organization for the same two theaters. We'll start in those two theaters and then once we get the product fully integrated, which is part of what this guy is doing, once we get the product fully integrated, then I think you'll see us start to move into some other theaters. But right now we're going to focus on those. So yes, we're hiring. Right now my LinkedIn says, "David Wigglesworth, we're hiring." >> I think I saw that actually (laughing). >> So Don, we got to dig into some of the technology with you and Avinash yesterday. >> Absolutely. >> So we're now getting most of the way through the conference, bring us inside some of the conversations you're having. I know it was one of the biggest question, we had coming in was: 'All right The Hedvig that we knew, what's going to change, how does that fit?' Blurring the lines between primary and secondary and all those discussions we had with Sanjay. So take us to how people, are they kind of getting it at this point? And we know it's a journey for the integration and where it will ultimately end. >> Here's the real interesting thing, is probably in the first, I don't know, maybe 24 hours of having conversations with people from partner exchange all the way through to basically day one of actual Commvault Go, I probably had about four, maybe five if you count one of the service providers from Customers' Partners, come up and say, "Okay look, we looked at this tech about 18, 12 months ago and it was top of our list for what we wanted to do for building out this initiative, but there was a little bit too much risk." Going okay, do we really want to invest that much on a company that is maybe not the largest, most, I wouldn't want to say, reputable, but substantial in the marketplace. Will they be there in the future? And they're like, "Now that we know you've legitimized that business "and you want to keep that technology going forward, "this is fantastic. "We totally want to go and take a re-look back at this "and see how we can apply "that back into our infrastructure." So that's a great feedback to hear, and only serves as validation that when we look at the tech and say "This is good stuff," that we know it's good stuff and then of course the next piece is always, "All right, so now when can I start using this for Commvault and?" >> Right. >> That's when we start getting into the conversations of all right, we've got some integration work to do, the partners are asking when they can start to get access to sell it and again, we've got some work to do just to industrialize what we're doing and make the experience similar and then we'll start to roll it out in a considered fashion. >> I'm curious about the education piece. One of the customers that was onstage this morning, Sonic Healthcare, one of the things he said, on main stage and when he stopped by theCUBE a couple of hours ago, was, he said: "I wouldn't be in my job," and he runs disaster recovery and business continuity for Sonic Healthcare, "I wouldn't be in my job without Commvault's support." And I really appreciated and respected how he talked about some of the failures that they had. I always think failure is a good F-word if you leverage it in that way, (agreement) failure can mean success, if you learn from it. But the support organization and the training he talked about have been instrumental. Talk to us, guys, about how you're going to be partnering together to not just enable the big partners for those large enterprise accounts but maybe even the new sales-guys-and-girls that are coming, David, to your team to help everybody really understand how best to delivery a really stellar customer experience with something as exciting now as Hedvig is. >> You want to start, since you've been working on the integration. >> Yes, absolutely. First and foremost, I've been working with Avinash and his brother, Srinivas, and a lot of their engineering team. You really start to lock in things that are repeatable and scalable in nature, right? So that if we are going to open this up to more people, we do need to have repeatable nature of the building blocks for different use cases. So there's some core work we're doing on outlining, positioning, criteria, success, what the outcome needs to be, how that ties back in to hardware. Making sure as well that we understand how the messaging really does resonate and make sure that we're following and being focused on what our core targets are. Because a solution like what Hedvig offers, you can quickly start talking about a lot of different things that could be all things to many people, and we know that that's probably the worst decision to make, because you go super wide and don't go very deep at all and you end up losing the value prop. So identifying what the real core use cases are, getting deep in how it works, one with what the structure of it looks like, making it repeatable, that's the first and foremost thing, I think, for how we can help both Ediz and Wigs' sales team, and on the support side, doing very similar things but also doing some of the programmatic work of the integration and the experience. I talk about experience, like the sending of logs, the things that Matthew Magby from Sonic Healthcare was talking about how we really helped him. We want that same level of experience tied into where the software storage platform works as well. So there's some work to be done there. But as we get it done, the enablement on the support side, as you know, we deal with storage everyday anyway, so it's not like it's a big leap, but we do have to bring them into the mix of how the actual technology works, where it breaks, why it breaks, and those are all the things that we're really focused on in the next 90 days. >> Yeah, I think the real key for me as we talk to customers and also employees is I want them all to have the same experience with the new Hedvig solution that they experience with Commvault, right? And that goes from training our employees, really getting our SEs up to speed, so they can have a meaningful conversation to be able to get a customer to say, "Yeah, I think I'd like to speak with the Special Aid team. "Please have them give me a call." And also on the enablement for the clients, and having the customer understand that you can dial to 1-800 number for support, you can talk to somebody that can lead you down a path and give you the same quality of support you've been used to whether you're calling about a Hedvig solution or whether you're calling about a Commvault solution. >> Yeah, we talked about it a little yesterday, but the scale of the offering is a little bit different. >> It is. >> And therefore, that has some challenges on the support. And something that I'm sure Commvault is going to work on making that, it's not identical for every customer but a little bit more repeatable to be able to scale out that offering. >> I would agree, I would agree. The hardest thing to do is when you have a product that has so much functionality as Hedvig is to not lose focus and try to talk way too broad. What you've really got to do is, you've got to drill down with the client try to understand where their pinpoints are and because, quite frankly, the Hedvig product can do a lot of things. >> Don: Yeah, it can. >> Who's the ideal target customers, we talked about the theaters in which you're going to be launching first. Enterprise, we talked about that. Commvault has a significant presence in the Fortune 500, I think I read about three quarters of Commvault's revenue today comes from the Fortune 500, and Stu was saying yesterday about 80% of the revenue comes from the channel. So we look at Hedvig and the enterprise for a second, customers that are new to Commvault, those existing enterprise customers, GTM both? >> Yeah, I would say, the primary focus is going to be calling on the existent customer set. It's much easier to have a conversation with someone who knows who you are, even though you may be selling a new solution, at least they know who you are and they have a positive experience with us. So that, number one, we're going to focus on our probably our top 300 global accounts to start, as well as our top enterprise accounts. So there's probably, I would say, in the two theaters I mentioned earlier, there's probably about 35 hundred accounts that we're really going to focus on, and really try to make sure that we get in front of as many as we can and tell the story. I think that's where we have to start. Now, will there be greenfield opportunities? Yeah, I think quite frankly, that the Hedvig offering is different enough that it will enable us to go call on some of accounts that aren't doing business with Commvault today, maybe doing business with some of our competitors. So hopefully we can use that to actually win more traditional Commvault business. That's the plan. >> And the reason the enterprise really makes sense, the global accounts, is most larger companies have figured out how try solve the CapEx problem, right? >> David: Yeah. >> They've figured out just the economies of scale and how they grow and move, they can kind of handle that. What really still becomes a challenging piece is the operational efficiency. So, can I get the right solution at the right cost, but do it in a way that I'm actually making things more simplified? I'm not actually exploding more complexity into my environment. That's really where the Commvault data management platform and the Hedvig solution together really make a really solid story. >> All right, so Wigs, Don's team's really got their work cut out for them with all the integration work and know they've got a cadence and a roadmap. For you, obviously, new logos, there's got to be revenue goals. What are some of the key KPIs to measure how this becomes a successful acquisition? >> Well if my CEO is standing close by, he may be in earshot of this, right now it's trying to drive as much revenue as we can. But we also have to realize that we also have to build a pipeline, right? So right now my main focus here is I got to get a team in place that can go articulate the value of this solution to a client, right, number one, both technically and then working with Ediz to get the SE team in place, so that's number one. Number two, while we're doing that, we need to build a pipeline, right? When you make an investment, as you guys know, you're expected to start getting a return on that pretty quickly. And, it's nice, we inherited some nice pipeline with the acquisition. But with opportunity comes responsibility and so we've got to build that pipeline up and really get out in front of customers and find some opportunities that we can not only try to finish for this second half so we can hit all of our financial metrics, but really build pipeline for FY21, for us which starts in April. >> So the voice of the customer is, really can be really powerful. We've heard from a number of Commvault customers on our program yesterday, today on main stage. Is there a plan, Wigs, from your perspective, to get customers into some sort of data so that you have proof in the pudding to show those large enterprises and those theaters to help build that pipeline. Look at someone who's been an existing Commvault customer for five, 10 years or so, here's the, I don't want to say migration path, but maybe upgrade path to expand footprint in there. Here's how we did it, here's why this was ideal for this customer. Plans to get those early adopters to help you dial up the pipeline? >> So have you been reading my 'Go to market strategy' (laughing) 'cause you kind of you basically just read it. So yes, listen we are inheriting some nice accounts with Hedvig. They have some nice logos out there which is really good. And it's a good foundation for us to build upon. But we're very fortunate in that our core sellers have some really good relationships with some pretty large customers really in all different industries. And so, what we're doing right now is we're trying to identify probably about 10 accounts that make sense. That are really strong partners. They don't have to necessarily be really big customers, but just really strong partners that want to work together with us. And exactly what you just said, let's get in front of them, let's give them an opportunity to play with the technology and have them help us figure out, we think we have a pretty good idea what the go-to-marketing messaging should be for our existing customer base but certainly don't assume that we know everything. So have them help us build that strategy. So that is absolutely the plan. >> We've been hearing a lot about the last couple of days, of just, the openness of Commvault. Whether it's, I really thought it was cool with Metallic that the telemetry that partners can get to help customers, maybe even before a customer knows of an issue or an opportunity, but this telemetry, this 'let's learn from our customers,' couldn't agree as a marketer with you more about, we might think we have a great tagline, great messaging, but it's the users who need to validate that. What I'm hearing a lot over the last day and a half is how receptive Commvault is. We're listening to our customers, whether it's existing and comeback customers that Sanjay's team are dealing with, or even through partners. That message is loud and clear, and that's pretty important. >> Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I'll be honest with you, what's it's also been able to give us an opportunity to do is where we've had some relationships, quite frankly, that maybe we need to work a little harder on. Hedvig has given us that opportunity to kind of start those conversations as well. I think there's a lot of value, both on the existing opportunities as well as growing the business overall. >> Guys, nothing short of a lot of work ahead. But, pretty exciting stuff. We thank you both. Wigs, welcome again to Commvault. >> Thank you. >> Can't wait for next year. Going to bring some cool customers on the program. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Looking forward. The buzz is so amazing this year. So many customers have said, "I know you weren't here last year, but wow," and that's what they've said. I can't wait to see what this is going to be like next year. Thank you for having us on here. >> You've got to come back. >> Absolutely we will. >> Yeah? >> Yeah. >> All right, guys, thank you for joining Stu and I. >> Thank you both very much. >> Thank you. >> For Stu Miniman, I am Lisa Martin, and you're watching theCUBE from Commvault Go '19. (upbeat electronic music)

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019. Brought to you by VM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone. Live Cube Live coverage here in San Francisco, California in the Mosconi North lobby for V Emerald 2019 tapes our 10th year covering with some great guest, three days of wall to wall coverage that an amazing signorina Rob Salmon is the president CEO of Cohee City. Dave Solo, presidency of the Special Olympics Northern California. Thanks for coming on. Thanks to spend the time. Thanks for doing. Set the table. Why we hear what we're talking about. What's the purpose here? I know I wouldn't want to set it up more >> absolutely. I've been involved with Special Olympics for several years now. When former company Netapp Matt Thompson over Adobe called me and said, We got this high tech challenge. Dr. We've never sold it out. We want it. We want to get more companies involved when you help out, and the answer was absolutely and that led to David asking me to be on the board. So I've been involved with David, the team for an awful long time. KOHI City When I joined the company, some of the folks there knew of my involvement is that we'd like to start participating as well, which has led to what we're doing here. Of'em World >> David Talk about Special Olympics Quick mission for sure about the folks that might not given update for sure. >> John Yes, so Special Olympics enriches the lives of children, adults with intellectual disabilities. And so, in our footprint in Northern California, with serve over 23,000 athletes ages eight above and it's it's it's interesting. There's a lot of misconceptions people will say to me That's a great event that you do every four years And they referring the World Games, especially its world games, where athletes from all over the world get a common compete. But locally, through the state programs, hundreds of competitions happen a each and every year. And in Northern California we have, or 400 competitions per year in 14 different sports provides a wonderful ray of opportunities for athletes to demonstrate what what they can do when given the opportunity >> to do so. Talk about the community of aspect of it because I think What's interesting is what's on TV and what's in the mainstream press. It's more reach people that can be known for that. But it's deeper than as you point out. But >> talk about the >> community aspect. Got volunteers, people, individuals involved. Yeah, but the makeup of the network? No, it's an incredible network. >> I think we've really brought in an expanded our reach over the last 10 years. It used to be well known primarily for sports programming. So now we have inclusive education and health programs. We're able to bring together people with and without intellectual disabilities through those mediums. So if I'd resource is to schools an education and they run special Olympics programming during the school day. So educators wanna have us because we're improving school clamp campuses, reducing bowling, enhancing social emotional learning. And so the work that we're doing is so so critical with that community, then the area health. We have inclusive health. So now we got health and medical crypt, uh, professionals that are now providing health screenings for athletes. So some of the younger volunteers that we get that they're wanting to make a career in the medical field they're exposed to our population, right? And so they learn more about their specific health needs. So it's really about changing people's attitudes. And so this community of supporters volunteers, health professionals, education, Really. Our goal is to change people's attitudes fundamentally worldwide about people with intellectual disabilities and really kind of produce inclusive mindsets. We call it really promote understanding. >> If I may. I I really think what David and his team does and folks of sports Special Olympics around the world, they're dying. Changing attitudes are changing lives, lives of the athletes, lives of the people that work with the athletes, lives of the families. If you go to these events and there's something special, there are a lot of fun. And when you get involved and you see it, it definitely touches your heart and you realize we could be doing so much more. We could be doing so much more. >> I'm struck by you. Clearly, there's a passion thread here, and your background is really interesting to me because you're an accomplished student athlete, played football on and then you started a career in nonprofit right away, and now Rob, he was somebody would have hired right. It was like the perfect student athlete. You know, magna cum laude. I want this guy on my team. My hard driving says that How did you get into this? And described the background of that >> know for sure, sewn with nonprofit work. I kind of kind of started out. I was working for Boys and Girls Clubs of America, raising money to go to grad school, to be a history professor of all things. And so I got involved with the Boys and Girls Club with special Olympics. When the opportunity came, what was what was unique about it? It's really about how sports changes people's lives. Growing up, my father left me when I was 10 years old, and so was my coaches. They were the ones that really wasn't for them. I don't know that I would be here today, so they really took an active role in my life. So I've been very passion. I believe sports is a catalyst for social change, changed my life and provide an opportunity for me to be successful. And so that's what I want to help get back to our after. And it's also so. It's interesting is it's also proves that takes a village, you know, in these experiences changes lives. I think this is the big story, and it points to that. The sports is one element of other things. Health care. So you start getting connected in this is where the magic happens. This is the key. Yeah, some of the stories that wherever just phenomenal. I think society focuses on what our athletes can't do and dwells on the disability. We don't do that. So what? We're passionate about showcasing what they can do and having our volunteer, you know, certified train coaches work with our athletes to really help them get to the next level so they could be successful not only on the field, but off the field. So I mean, I got to get involved. Talk about the virtual. You're in Northern California. That's your territory, your area. But people, how they get involved, they wanna be share some no points of touch. Yeah, for sure. So a couple key points to touch would be number one. We have over 20,000 volunteers in our footprints, so we have a tremendous need for volunteers both globally and here locally, with Special Olympics, Northern California number two is from a donor standpoint. So everything that we do for athletes is completely free. And we're able to do that because the support of our community partners, our corporate partners like, Oh, he city, you know, individual supporters foundations were able to do that because of themselves. You know, either someone could go to the global website Special Olympics dot order come to W w dot s, O N C dot or for Northern California. We're always looking for volunteers, donor's community supporters, and we're also looking for board members, particularly from the tech sector. Senior executives in the tech sector. Justin, you stay channel lies for the people involved that also includes the people who volunteered. I'm sure people that want to make a difference whether you're thinking of senior approach, rather urine or your employees who want to give back so tell about the lives changing impact there because this is a corporate angle here that's not doesn't it's not for profit thing. It's a four good thing. >> Oh, this is for a good thing, and the thing I did to that is, and we touched briefly on Boys and Girls Clubs of America. These are all great organizations. I know Patton is key note. This morning, touched on giving back. This is an opportunity. Well, we're all blessed. We should give back. But the whole notion of getting more involved in touching lives I'll start with my two boys. They went to summer games and U C Davis three or four years ago. Now both of her good runners and they had some other kids on the high school team go with them. They were incredibly impressed. They had a lot of fun. A little banter with the athletes. Newsome, Bath, please. Out there there, Let's talk your heart. The gun goes off for the start, and they're already you get the arms up, curing away, and there's others incredibly talented athletes as well. It's so it just opened your eyes of what is possible. You're the one thing I touch on Is self esteem matters for every one of us, whether you have a disability or not, whether you're young or my age, it matters for someone to tell you that you are good. You are really worthy. Your hard work is paying off. You see these athletes when they finish the race or accomplished something that couldn't be more proud going to these events it will want. You will want to get involved. That's what typically happens. >> It sounds like you do coverages gonna be making its way to these events. Actually, wait, are fully got this part in the NHL MLB, NFL Masters golf tournaments. We have to get a pro circuit going on here way. Wonderful. Yeah. Hey, this is a really great cause. Any final thoughts again, back for people who want to get involved in the North California group. What? What can you offer people? No, I think we offer people a tangible way, especially when we think of the tech sector. And we think of the, you know, the employees and the millennials and hands on way for people to come out to our regional competitions and actually engage with our athletes and volunteer and be hands on and actually see where your money goes. You know, see, see that it's something tangible and you're helping provide that venue for athletes to be successful. One of things I didn't mention that we're really proud of. So we have a way of athletes are college students. We have athletes that are full time employees. Married couples, >> Um, >> and then we have a published poet. But last couple months we have an athlete that passed the bar exam who is now going to be a practicing attorney on. So that's really shows that you know, one of the things that you guys are hitting on here, Rob, I know you guys do a lot with your company. You guys even donating one of your tech sessions for a survey that John Troyer's team did around. Check burnout. People get it and even my kids to go to the high school In a lot of high schools like this now, where people get stressed out of the weirdest things, >> This is the kind >> of thing that getting involved in these community events like this really could help everybody. She allowed a little bit, Really. Take a load off, work with people, see the connection, see the impact. It's a burnout tactic option. It's also a way to relieve some stress. Feel >> good about it. >> The employees of Cohee City, when they came to me and said they want to get more evolved, they didn't do it because of me, they did it because they're excited about working with Special Olympics and they're beaming. Means some of the athletes 11 9 with a bunch of athletes going the baseball game tonight, Hamilton tomorrow night, their families as well. We couldn't be more excited, But I agree with you. You look at all the stresses in our lives, and I think this notion of what you do, who you do with how you give back is really, really important. I think that gives back piece, I think more of us allowing employees to do that, helping our children and school understand truly important the value. Um, is this absolutely >> You guys are making a great point because we've both been involved in youth sports all our lives, and it's kind of become twisted where you've got kids needs and parents needs and the parents trying to meet him in the middle, and that's not the way it should be. Your initiatives, I mean, it underscores what it's really all about. Self esteem, having fun, supporting your teammates and the broader community. >> But they stay well and compete and win two that they're in there. See some of those players. I mean, they're >> hard. I've seen some hard core competition, no doubt. But how well do they start? So >> eight years always started eight. And we have an athlete that's 81 that participates in watching. >> So okay, so appropriate. But the reason I miss it because, you know, having studied this allowed it. It's like 12 years old is the crossover point where people start to get crazy. And if you start before then, in other words Oh, this kid is nine. But he's not that good. Who could tell what a nine year old Michael Jordan got cut from his freshman basketball team? So it just goes to show you. So I think that that again, the values that you guys air promoting our worthy thanks >> me feel better about what we're doing. A cohesive it really does. Thank you for doing this. Being able to put two things I'm really passionate about together. Ah, this is pretty special for me. And I think my it around our founder and the rest of the company. And in David and team, they just do a fantastic job. I just wanna make sure we keep building on it. >> Congratulations. Great to get the word out. Congratulations. All your hard work. Awesome Cube coverage live in San Francisco. We back with more after this short break.

(upbeat funky music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California. This is a Cube conversation. >> Hello everyone welcome to this special Cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier. Co-host of the Cube. We got two special expert guests here talking multi-cloud, Jonathan King, Vice President of Strategy, Data Center, and Cloud for WWT. And Fabio Gori, Senior Director Cloud Solution and Marketing at Cisco. Multi-cloud is the topic. Guys are in the throes of it. Jonathan, you're in the front wave of a massive shift. Cisco powers networks for all companies these days, so guys multi-cloud is a reality. It's here. I want to get your thoughts on that, have a conversation. Thanks for joining us. >> Great, glad to be here. >> So multi-cloud is not really been debated. I mean people generally now step back and say multi-cloud is a reality. It's here, people have multiple clouds. Should only have data center on premise. But this idea of multi-cloud and hybrid cloud are somewhat getting mixed up, but multi-cloud is certainly more realistic in the reality sense than anything else. What's your take on multi-cloud, Jonathan? >> So I think we're at a point where there's a growing acceptance of multi-cloud as the architecture of the future. And when you arrive at that point it also means that multi-cloud is the architecture for today. Because if you see your competitors, you see new entrants in your space, moving in a rapid digital pace to meet their business needs, and you're not on the same kind of architecture. The same footing. Then you're going to be left behind. So, used to debate private cloud, hybrid cloud, multi-cloud. The way we see it is that we're in this multi-cloud world. And multi-cloud embraces an end-to-end imperative. How am I getting my apps and my development teams building those apps closer to my business and meeting my needs more rapidly? And then how am I connecting my entire business, my data, my network, all of it, to meet that needs. So multi-cloud architecture's really an imperative. It doesn't mean it's the only thing. There's other elements in terms of having a clear digital strategy. Thinking about how you're going to modernize your infrastructure. Of course, thinking about how you're transforming your security. All four of those elements really comprise a enterprise architecture. Multi-cloud being a core part of it. >> Fabio, Cisco, you guys have seen the waves of innovation, internet, connecting companies together through networking etc. Multi-cloud's a big part of your focus. Certainly at Cisco Live we covered that. What's the definition of multi-cloud now, because I've heard, it's been debunked, but I've heard people say, oh multi-cloud's an application workload moving across multiple clouds. Some say, no, it just means I have two clouds. So what is the definition? Baseline us here. >> So it's interesting because you can go Wikipedia and actually read the definition of multi-cloud, but what I'm really interested in is exactly what Jonathan was saying a moment ago. This is one of those rare cases where what you hear architecture is actually a technology architecture and the business architecture really coincide. People want to use innovation wherever it comes from. And because you can't allow yourself to be just restricted your choice, people want to have choice. Multiple choices. And that's why we're seeing adoption of multiple cloud services. Multiple SaaS solutioning for structure service solutions and the likes. So this is really what multi-cloud means. You're satisfying a business need. And while cloud computing was born, as we know, around 10 years ago, and it probably started with a kind of cost connotation, the speed and agility that you can get out of it now overwhelm the other parameters. And people are ready to spend anything it takes to become faster than their competitor, because that ultimately will really determines your destiny in the marketplace. >> And I want to drill into the tech side and have some specific pointed questions I'd love to ask you. Jonathan, first, talk about the relationship that WWT, World Wide Technology, has with Cisco, and your credibility in multi-cloud. You guys have a unique view First of all you work with Cisco, you guys partner together. A big part of your business. But you guys are in the middle of a lot of the action. Talk about the company. What kind of deals you guys are doing? What visibility do you guys have? Is it a landscape? Give an example of some of the work that you guys do, and then talk about the relationship with Cisco. >> Yeah so, the Cisco is a very strategic partner of ours. They have been for a long time. And we have the benefit of being at scale with Cisco. For repeatable waves of technology roll outs. In repeatable domains of technologies. So, customers come to us and look for our help as a trusted advisor to help them with their architectural decisions. And to help them often with knowledge gaps. So, architecture is a challenge. Especially when you're dealing with rapid change. So you have a pace of change externally. You cover this space. I mean every day, right? We were sitting here there's some kind of new thing going on. And, that change, I mean even companies who know what they're doing, and have deep benches of talent, have architectural challenges. But you take it to an enterprise or a government agency. How are they going to keep up? Well that's really our job and the value we bring is. We are constantly watching, talking to partners, talking to customers. And there's almost no one we're that as closely with as we are with Cisco, in terms of how we're watching trends, looking what's happening. And from a multi-cloud standpoint, in answer to your question there, it's a bit of a thought experiment. So if you define multi-cloud as really just, oh it's just between Amazon, Azure, Google. Multi-cloud is just multi public cloud. We do not see it that way, our clients don't see it that way. Our clients see it as a bigger domain. That multi-cloud includes how you're connecting to SaaS. How you're, there's multiple public clouds, a bigger definition there. But then it's also the edge, the cloud edge, the different edges that are out there are are being deployed in a cloud architecture. Your core data center has a private cloud. All of that we see as multi-cloud. And when you define it that way, you start to look at it. Companies are saying who do I turn to to help me with a multi-cloud architecture? Do I turn to someone that was born in the cloud. Who just really knows AWS. They know it really well. But that's what they know. Or a similar consulting company who's over here. The credibility that we have, we have those capabilities. But we also have depth and breadth, and history, and knowledge, and contracts and relationships. An incredible ecosystem. And important with Cisco, it's not just a one-way relationship. We have an ecosystem around us, collectively, that Cisco benefits because we have that ecosystem. And that's really what companies look for. It puts us in a very unique position because we see this AND world. It's not an OR world. And I think even the investments and movements that the public clouds have made recently. The hybrid offerings that they're bringing, and where Kubernetes is going to enable portability. All these things really are about a multi-cloud world, and we're just excited about where we are. >> It's interesting, there's the first wave, Amazon, I call it the Amazon wave because they really did take out the beach. And then public cloud. It kind of showed the way, the economics and the value creation piece. And you mentioned a few things that point at this next wave. That next big wave I see it is about people and technology. This holistic view around multiple architectures is a systems concept so it's not unproven. And Fabio we've seen this movie before in systems. Operating systems. You need networking. You got to connect things together. So this next wave of thinking about workloads and applications in context to an architecture see to the next narrative that people are starting to talk about. Versus. >> Absolutely >> Public cloud, because the people equation, who's going to run it, who's going to service it, who's the coders, what tools and APIs do I use. People behave in certain ways, and they like their favorite cloud, so it's a whole different ball game. You're thoughts. What's driving all this? >> I would say, look, we could talk about this forever. But I think we're seeing a pretty dramatic shift into an architectural model, right? I mean, if you remember a few years ago, we had networking specialists in the data center, storage specialists and compu-specialists, well guess what, people moved to full-stack type of expertise, right? And now we even have systems that are completely converged. Or hybrid converged. Well, we're seeing the same movie in the cloud. Where we're seeing the rise of cloud architectures, enterprise architectures, which become really determinable of the business. And these people, especially in the companies that are ahead of the game, in terms of cloud adoption and expertise. These guys are issuing the new guidance and guardrails for the entire organization in terms of what governance role you need to take, right? And the other groups actually execute this kind of strategy. This is, some people say this is finally SOA coming alive. The SOA, Service Oriented Architecture. That's exactly what it is without probably some of the kind of propriety underpinnings, or driven by certain market players in the past. This is a true, so if you think about microservices in containers, that's exactly what it is. And also we're seeing a lot of companies that are starting getting even organized by microservices. Which is the ultimate demonstration that the technology architecture and the business architecture are really converged. It's a fairly complicated concept, but in the end it's about really connecting the business to the underlying technology. >> And it's a shift that's happening in front of our eyes. And we're covering a lot of the news. Some notable news that we've been covering lately, the Department of Defense JEDI contract. That's in the public sector and military. CNCF, Amazon re:Invent. Google Nexus coming out. You're starting to see the formation where it's not about the cloud vendor or the cloud supplier anymore, as much as it is about the workload. So, there's been a debate of sole sourcing the cloud, that's certainly, we're seeing that on the DOD side 'cause it's more a military procurement thing. But that's not the right answer anymore, we're seeing that whole, spread the multi-vendor love around. It's not so much like it used to be. It's different now, there's new architecture. So, Jonathan, I want to go back to your multi-cloud architecture because I think the strategic question that I'd like to get to is. It might not be a bad thing to pick a cloud, a sole cloud for workload. But that's not meaning you're going to not use other clouds. This is a whole different thinking. So I can pick Amazon for this workload or pick Azure for that workload and Google for that workload. And holistically connect them all together. Seamlessly, this is not a bad thing. Your thoughts. >> There's a somewhat of a paradox when you talk about multi-cloud architecture and then you talk about moments in time where it makes architectural sense to pick one cloud, right? That particular decision there's issues around people and training and technology, and time to market, and API coverage. So there's all these things that you're trying to get a job done or a mission done and the amount of time that you have to achieve that job or that mission. What path am I going to choose? What engine am I going to put on the plane to get me there? Now that doesn't mean that that's the only engine you're going to put on your fleet. It just means that particular plane is going to have that kind of engine. And then the next time, you got another engine, you got a different kind of plane. You're thinking about how you're doing these things in waves and modules, and you're trying to build your aggregate velocity, 'cause really if you strip it all down. You know earlier we were talking about multi-cloud and people and talent, we're in a distributed computing land rush. And businesses of all sizes, government agencies, companies are trying to figure out how do we, you know. Electricity came along, now cloud has come along, right over the horizon cognification's coming along. How am I as an enterprise getting digitally ready, and getting on a footing to be able to do what I need to do in that domain? And really, it's about velocity and movement, so. Now that means that, that's why architecture is so important, because you have to make, you want a, people talk about one-way doors and two-way doors. So you want stop and think about, am I going through a one-way door or am I going through a two-way door? Meaning, do I have a way to come back? Is this a decision that I'm going to live with? If so how long? Is this a decision I can go through and I can come back? These kinds of approaches let you look across it. So an example would be networking. So networking is a foundation to every multi-cloud strategy. So you have to think, today my network in many enterprises is still a campus branch architecture. Well traffic patterns have changed. Even if you've just done nothing your customers have moved. Like all of a sudden, you know we talk to customers. We work with retailers, we work with all kinds of people, and it is like Global Climate Change. It's like global network change. The scale at which the clouds have arrived have changed the network patterns. So, if you start to look at it, you're saying, well what is a multi-cloud networking strategy? How do I need to rethink, well, guess what, the campus, my headquarters, is no longer the hub it used to be. The hub is now at the cloud edge, where all the other clouds are geographically aggregated. I need to move my network closer to that location. So we do a lot of work with Equinix in that context, right? So they have and have built a business around >> Sort of re-architecture's happening, and it's being driven by value creation, value shifting. >> Yes. >> Moving everything around. >> And that's where from a cloud networking standpoint, you look at that's a discussion where Cisco's so uniquely situated, because they are the networking company. They've been through the generations and they've been through different changes of generations. You know Wi-Fi, didn't used to be Wi-Fi. Now it is, right, it's here. And now we're in this next paradigm, where cloud networking didn't used to be here. Now it is, so. >> What's the new thought process for cloud networking. Because it makes a lot of sense, you have to connect clouds, obviously networking latency, SLAs around moving things around from point a to point b, storing stuff as well. Fabio, what's the equation look like? What's changed? Where do your customers go in this new architecture? >> Well, just building on top of what Jonathan was saying before, first of all the way we architect the networks, enterprise networks were networks in the past. Of course this is coming to an end. We need to rethink them, right? The fact that users now are going to use an enormous amount of software as a service applications that don't sit in your data center, means that constricting all the software in a single place doesn't make any more sense. But there's not just the traffic element. Think about all the intrusion detection and prevention, firewalling capabilities. Because you're moving away from that model, you need to start visualizing also those security functions and distributing them all the way to the edge of the network. In some cases, you need to have them in the cloud as well. We believe that the best way is a fully distributed model. Where you have a choice. Whether you keep it in your data center, or you put into the cloud, or even the to edge of the network. Again, you got to be ready for any kind of scenario. It's interesting how, you know, we're going to distributed computing as you said. But everything else is getting distributed as well. >> Oh yeah. >> Your entire infrastructure needs to follow your application and data. Wherever they go. And that's actually something unprecedented that we're seeing right now. >> And you brought up cloud architecture earlier, Jonathan. You mentioned it briefly. And this comes back to some of that this nuanced point around cloud architecture. The procurement standards aren't driving what you buy, its architectural workload dynamics are now telling procurement how we're buying. So the world shifting from, oh, I'm going to buy these servers. I'm going to buy this gear, the approved vendors. When you think about architecture the way you pointed it out, it's a completely different decision making process. So what's happening is old ways of procuring and buying and consuming technology are now shifting to. Still not going to stand up a cloud with a credit card if I'm doing dev ops, but now you start thinking holistically. The decision making on what that will look like has changed. This is probably impacting the cultural people side as well. What's your thoughts on this dynamic between cloud selection, security, architecture, and procurement? >> The example I normally give is, it's changing but it's also evolving, right? Because you're dealing with patterns that are there, and they're not going to go away, right? Money still has to be paid. Processes have to be followed and respected. The examples that I give would be, I've run large clouds in my past. Different platforms. And one thing you always watch out for when you're running a cloud is capacity. How much money do I have in the bank, so to speak, right? Am I going to have a run on the bank? So if you're running that cloud, either, and this is true if you're a service provider or you have your own private cloud. You're very concerned about you don't want to run out of capacity. Because bad things happen. Even unrecoverable bad things happen. Well in the public cloud, hey, I'm free and clear, I no longer have a capacity management team, I don't need to worry about them anymore. No, no, no no. 'Cause, you know, we just saw some press recently of a company that had a big overage. In cloud, what used to be capacity management is now cost optimization. 'Cause if you don't have it, you're going to have a similarly bad outcome. It's those kinds of things, right? How do you go, and it's those things, right? >> Once a benefit, now it's a challenge. So this could back down to the billion dollar question on the table in the industry is, how do I manage all this? I know how to connect it. Cisco could help me there. I understand multi-cloud, I totally buy into the architecture. I think this is clearly the direction. The management piece is kind of a fuzzy area. Can you guys help unpack cloud management? What are the table stakes? How should people be thinking about it? Because you mentioned security and intrusion detection. Not just moving packets around. We were talking before you came on about Kubernetes. There's all new sets of services moving up the stack, inside this dynamic. How do I manage it all? What single pane of glass is going to do it for me? >> Well, yeah, it's interesting you mentioned there. We've talked a lot about almost like an East West type shift you can think of where, multi-cloud is this thing that goes this way. Well, there's an equally crazy paradigm that's happening in a very fast period of time where it's almost like a North South North shift. Which is, Kubernetes, containers, service meshes. These architectures that are abstracting and lifting everything up. And in some ways, coming underneath as well, at the same time. Because now you've got a return of bare metal. You have these concepts architecturally where the VM is here to stay, it ain't going anywhere. It's still, the tooling around is insanely valuable. But you have now another benefit layer at a container orchestration layer, where there's portability, speed. There's all these benefits that come. And you just look at the stats of how fast containers are growing as a share. You're approaching a billion containers out there right now. And therein lies the challenge. Is that it'd be enough of a difficulty if you were saying I need to go from managing my private cloud, the stuff I have at a cloud edge, edge location, and the stuff I have in multiple public clouds. That's not all we're saying. We're saying also, you have a new tooling and a new set, and it's all software defined, and there's security, network, there's data. It just it's -- >> Complex. >> Exploding, it's complex. So the area that we're working on and want to hear more from Fabio is were innovating with Cisco on, we have great offerings and capabilities around cross cloud and VM orchestration. We're also looking now at that Kubernetes layer. >> Absolutely. >> What's real on that, the complexity he just pointed out is an opportunity at the same time because it just validates the shift that's going on. >> Absolutely. >> Management is an opportunity. >> Jonathan almost went through the entire set of needs. And what you take away from this is that fundamentally you have to instrument this incredibly distributed environment multiple sources and sourcing of this. In fact I love the analogy that you did with the planes, because there's a lot of kind of similarities to a supply chain management kind of business model, right? Where you want to supply different services. But a bottom line is that you're now moving away from what you have. It's a journey. And so this instrumentation, whether it's networking, security, analytics, management, these are actually the four pillars of our company multi-cloud strategy. They need to work across the old and the new. You can't afford to build another silo and maybe leveraging a bunch of open stores like-- >> So a data plane strategy is critical. >> It's, yeah, and it has to-- >> Across the hybrid and multi-cloud. >> East West, North South, and across the old and the new. It sounds very complex, but in reality the-- >> But you could build a taxonomy around this. And we've seen some research come out certainly from Wikiban and others. If it fits into the architecture that seems to be the question. So Jonathan, where does that fit in to the multi-cloud architecture in your opinion? >> So we, there's, you get into different terminology. We think about every company needs a cloud services strategy. So there's a taxonomy of services that we've developed. Where companies have to think about their application services strategy. Their operation strategy, governance strategy, foundation strategy. And this is, it's sort of coming what I teased upon earlier about moving from capacity planning when you own the cloud to cost optimization when you're running the cloud, right? It's the same, but different. And a lot of that difference gets down to services. I am going from a model of running my own product in an information technology modality to now I'm consuming services. So, I used to architect, and design, and build. Now I have to architect and really understand those differences. And so that's our cloud services strategy portfolio. And what we often see is we also have a dev ops portfolio. And we short-hand it, you could call it cloud native, right? Where we're looking at solutions around infrastructures code, around CICD pipelines, around cloud foundation capabilities that connect back-- >> Are they best practices or actually implementation? >> So both, we have content and workshops that we've developed, and then we have. Helping clients on projects very actively. And, you know, that's where it gets back to that architectural gap and knowledge gap. Is companies are looking for, hey, what's the pattern, what are the best practices. And then they don't expect, 'cause there's so many elements that change for a given company. And that change in the market, that there's a shelf-life to this. And it's like fresh produce. >> I love your example of engine in a plane. Do you have it for a single plane or fleet of planes? Does your company have two three big planes. It depends really, I mean, beauty's in the eye of the beholder, here, right? How you build and architect cloud, there's no boilerplate. It really is comes down to figuring it out. >> Where you are. >> So, with that, I want to go to my final point I want to dig into on the people side. So technology shift, business shift, check. You guys did a great job there. Great insight. Comes up every time I have to go to a Cube event and talk about cloud, is the cultural people skills gap problem. One, our company doesn't have the culture and/or we don't have the skill and we don't have the people to run it. So, automation certainly can help there but at the end of the day, if you don't have the people to do this. How do you solve the people problem? How are you guys helping companies? What is some of the state-of-the-art techniques? What's out there? >> So, I'll say a little. I appreciate Fabio's perspective, too. I think for us, really, you know, the old saying, culture eats strategy for breakfast. Culture's more important than ever. Because really, you're now moving to a mode where siloed organizations implementing siloed technology is enormously challenging. You have to move, and that's where dev ops and other patterns come in, where the people who build the app are doing the operations. Storage and networking and compute and apps and the business, they're all talking to each other. So culture really is foundational so that a culture where you're not making boundaries more rigid, you have to get to a point, and there's different ways to do this. I already recommend if people haven't already read the Phoenix Project. Hard to believe but it's an excellent book. And it's a fictional work about tech. It's like a novel about tech. >> I haven't read it yet, I'm going to get that. >> It's awesome. And it really gets you in the mindset of an organization going through change with the net. And it really, I mean I'm a geek, so I like it, but I've had other non-Geeks read it and they like it. But that's the key, it's a-- >> So you really got to set the table and invest in culture, making sure it's >> Culture's foundational. >> appropriately aligned. >> Culture's foundational. And then there's other best practices that always apply, right? So, what is your business vision? What is your mission? What are your values? What are the objectives you're trying to achieve in this space and time relationship? How are you prioritizing? These are all things because then if you have the right build around all that. Then what you drive to is an outcome at a certain point of time. And time's critical. We're in a market that's competing on time. So if you are not hyper aware of time. And what you're doing in a set point of time. And the trade-offs in making changes if your assumptions are wrong. These are all things that are foundational. >> Fabio, I want to get your thoughts. Chuck Robbins talks about solving the tech problems just because a tech company can solve tech problems all day long. He's also behind the people skillset. I've heard him publicly talk about it. But you guys at Cisco have actually had a great transformation with the DevNet Create community, where you harness the culture, and everyone's engaged around cloud, cloud native, and you have a kind of cloud DNA developing out of the core network. Your thoughts and Cisco's view on culture and people solving the problem. Because we need an army of cloud architects out there. There's not enough people. >> So that's true, but we carry an enormous responsibility in the marketplace as a vendor. We have to make things simple, right? There's still, you know, most of the IT infrastructure's still very complex to program and automate and the likes. That's why we're putting an enormous amount of RnD efforts, right? DevNet is like the tip of the spear. It's showing fundamentally our very loyal CCIEs and everybody else there's a better way to do things, right? Where you can actually really automate things together. You can get access to the APIs and simplify your life. You can simplify your life and the life of the business 'cause you can get faster. So making things simple, automating them, I don't know, if you think about, for instance, our cloud management orchestration philosophy. With the cloud center, we have a patent where we can actually model the application at once. And deploying it to wherever you want. We can deploy that application on-prem, on a VM, or like viralize kind of infrastructure. You can put it into AWS, you can put it into Azure, whatever you want. Kubernetes is kind of target on-prem. That is simplicity, right? We have to drive simplicity. And for me, it's all about automation, and sometimes you hear things like, in 10-base architecture and infrastructure all of that means simplicity and security. And that's the complexity of the whole thing for us is trading off, of course some of the complexity, richness, and flexibility. But it's got to be simple. If we don't make it simple, we are actually failing our goals. And that's where we're putting an enormous amount of RnD effort. >> And Jonathan, you guys at WWT have a unique aperture, view of the marketplace. You see a lot of the landscape, knowing what you guys do. Every vendor says they it, but you're really customer focused, so you're in you're digging in with the customers, it's a real value added service. I got to ask you the question with multi-cloud it sounds easy just to connect them all, right? It's like a subnet plug it in the coax, put a hub there. Put some adapter cards on a PC. The old days of connecting things. It just metaphorically seems easy What's the opportunity for connecting multi-cloud? So, as people realize when they wake up tomorrow or today. And they go, hey, you know what, I got lot of multi-cloud around. How do I connect them together? What's the opportunity, what's the opportunity for Cisco. 'Cause that seems to be the first order of business. I can connect things together in the architecture. And then what happens next? What's the opportunity to connect these clouds. >> The opportunity is gigantic. If you look at just the growth of the public clouds themselves. The CAGRs that they're representing. They're growing the rate their growing on very big numbers already. And it often gets overlooked, but Gartner will tell you also that the co-location, that cloud edge space, is also growing at a good CAGR. So you have just more and more going there. All of that needs to be connected. All of it needs to be protected. So networking is not just networking. Networking is security. A critical pillar of any security practice is really understanding and knowing in-depth your network. The introspection of it all. And at the same time, we're moving from a physical world. And we've moved and virtualized, but now the virtualization of the network now with SD-WAN coming, you're moving to a programmable model, where everything needs to be programmed. So it's not humans. So it's almost like every arc. Just in terms of the amount of data, the amount of traffic, that's all growing. Now, it's not just humans, it's machines doing things. And then also it's not just physical connections. It's software. So it's a three dimensional plot and it's growing on every axis. >> It just not in every device, it's software as a device. Software device connections. Service connections. What's Cisco's opportunity? How positioned are they that can do this? Because there's a lot of conversation around edge. Now you just mentioned a few of them, 5G. What's Cisco's opportunity in all this? >> Well I mean I think Cisco's shown recently and then through generations that they have a unique ability to lead and move with the market. And they're demonstrating that now. So, I think the importance of where the network sits, and not just the network, but again there's an adjacency of security. There's an adjacency of orchestration and management. Their global presence, their global operation. The sophistication of their channel business. All those things put them in a really strong place, we feel. >> You mentioned SD-WAN in a previous comment around talking about edge and stuff. If you think about Office 365, when companies roll that out. That basically takes SD-WAN from a little niche industry to all the internet. SD-WAN is basically the internet now. Your old grandfather's SD-WAN was over here, now everything's SD-WAN. That's basically the internet. So talk about the SD-WAN impact in this because with edge, that's super important too. Your thoughts. >> Well, it was back when we were talking about that traffic patterns are changing. So you're moving to no longer really this campus branch closed network. There's still an important need for that, of course. But now you're doing your business where your customers are. On their phone, in their car. Which means you're having to traverse and work and scale in a very different way. It's part where you have to put the network. And then, it's how you have to run and connect the network in your retail store or in these other things. Part of it is doing what we've always done in a better way. And then probably every day, more of it is about doing things in a new way that you couldn't do in the past to achieve a new business objective. >> Well Jonathan, thanks for coming on theCUBE conversation. I'd love to have you back on. Great insight. We could also do remotes. So when you go back to the home branch in St. Louis we can bring you in. >> Tells you Silicon Valley and St. Louis, man. Silicon angle, Silicon Valley, St. Louis. >> Let's do it. And I'll say congratulations on your success with Cisco. Fabio, it's been great to see you. Final word, Fabio, just bring it all together. Multi-cloud, it's here, kind of that's the reality. >> Yeah, I want to go back really to where we started the conversation, right? We can't forget the multicloud is still like a mean to and end. The end is, companies want to become and need to become innovative and fast. And that's actually why all this interest in multicloud. It's a business engine. That's why we're all so excited. Because it's a business issue. It's not so much a brand new technology that probably in two years is going to be out of fashion. My personal prediction, we're going to be talking about multicloud for several years. On the contrary of other trends. >> And just to real quickly bring in what we talked about before we came on camera. This is a CEO issue of companies, not CIO. >> Absolutely. >> This is showing the culture and the urgency, really, in all this. >> That's right. >> Absolutely. Guys, thanks so much for coming on. Great insight. Multi-cloud conversation, fantastic. Jonathan King, Vice President of Strategy, Data Center, and Cloud for WWT. Also Fabio Gori, friend of theCUBE, Senior Director Cloud Solution and Marketing at Cisco. Thanks for coming on. This theCUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat funky music)

>> Welcome to the special. Keep conversation. I'm John Furrier in the Palo Alto Studios of the Cube. We're a special guest Rowan Trollope of CEO of Five9, formerly of Cisco formerly CUBE alumni. Great to see you. Thanks for joining me today. >> Great to see you, John. So let's talk about >> the future. The Contact Center. You got a new role. CEO Five9. Looks like a great opportunity. Tell us about it. >> Well, the Contact Center is really where it's at right now in the UC space on in the collaboration space. And frankly, in the digitization trend for most companies, they're realizing that the experience that they give to their customers has got to transform. You know, customers are telling them that if they don't fix the experience they deliver, they're going to leave. The business is that they're doing business with him. So I think that's, you know, it's It's really emerging as this really hot space and interesting space in a place where businesses recognize they have to spend money and do a much better job. >> One of the things that we talked about the past, certainly that you're always on the wave of cloud data. You've always had that vision in our previous conversations. Five9 Now in this contact center, kind of an old legacy old way of doing things. Voice over i p. You know, managing customer relationships. Whether it's support or outbound seems to be changed with cloud computing in the role of data. And now, machine learning and eyes really been an accelerant. Yet what's your vision over the next five years as this starts to transform and people re imagine what that's going to look like for their businesses? Because certainly customer relationships are changing. People have multiple devices here on any platform, there, there horizontally, moving around different websites, different places different on the undergo. A lot of change happening. What's your vision? There >> is a lot of change happening, and it's changed. But that's primarily driven by consumer behavior and sort of enabled by technology. So the biggest factor, in my opinion, that's affecting businesses, that you have the age of this empowered consumer. You know, ten years ago, for example, my wife stuff is you're bugging the crap out of me about fixing cleaning up my garage and so at the time, the way that I did that as I ran down to Home Depot, I looked at what they had on the shelf. I picked a, you know, a shelving system, and I brought it home, and I set it up ten years later, and this is just about a year ago. We have moved since then and, you know, the garages yet again, a mess. And I've been giving getting a hard time about it. So she's finally I said, Okay, okay, I'll organize the garage. And so what do I do this time? I go out and I get on my phone and I search for garage organizing systems, and I get lots of different forms and people talking about things and reading customer reviews and so on and so forth. I do a whole bunch of research, actually call a couple of the companies that made three different calls just to get some details about their product that I couldn't get online and ultimately ordered one. And it shows up at my house. So ten years ago, you have sort of, you know, not very empowered consumer. I took what was on the shelf. That's what I got. Ten years later, you have zero trips to retail brick and mortar. You have a very empowered consumer. Me. It has lots of options, lots of choices and three calls to a contact center that happened in the span of ten years, powered by the Internet, >> power by my mobile phone, powered >> by connectivity and so on and so forth. So any business, who's in, you know, every business essentially is dealing with this challenge and my expectation in terms of who I'm gonna do. Businesses with heavily influenced by the quality of their website, the quality of the experience that they had the quality of their community, that user reviews, they were coming back and, you know, some of them. Some of the commentary, Like, I got this thing it was missing. Some stuff I couldn't get hold of them was super hard to deal with. I'm not going to do business with that company. So what? You know, part of that transformation over the last ten, twenty, thirty years has been the empowered consumer gets to make a choice, and they don't have to do business if you don't have a great experience. So that's moving the contact center industry from being a sort of an extension of the phone system that we really don't want to think about very often into some that's really, really important for businesses, and I was seeing that left and right coming from my previous job. >> It's interesting. It's an opportunity to its challenge on one hand, for company dealing with the old way to do it, it becomes an opportunity when the user expectations and experiences impacted. That's a buying decision or relationship. Emotional decision. What is this opportunity mean for companies? Because now this now flips to the potential sellers of services and products. They have now an opportunity to take advantage of this new dynamic where users are in charge of being empowered. What's the opportunity for companies? >> So so it's two things. One, if you're a disruptive company coming out, you know any or starting up a new company and you're going after this. You can look at the user experience as part of your differentiation value proposition. I'm not only going to have a great product, but I'm gonna wrap that in the great experience. And that's the expectation today that any new company company will take a company like Square, for example, Yes, they have a beautiful little card swipe reader, and they have a, you know, nice industrial design. But that's not just what you get. You get a team behind that coming from, you know, the company that provides great support and a great experience. And when you sign up for square, the first thing you get is an email from their CEO sort of welcoming you to the community, and you see that with a lot of modern companies. Tesla's another great example where you see a really tremendous experience being around what is fundamentally a great product. Uh, and that's not something that you would see with the the incumbents. I think if you're a disrupter or new company, or you're looking at transforming an industry, then the opportunity is think about the holistic customer experience. If you're an incumbent or you've been in the business for a while and you're facing one of these sort of digital disruptors, if you want to call them that, then your opportunity is to re imagine your customer experience end to end and put some time and effort into it. You know, the reality is still, and I was in the call center thirty years ago, almost. The customers at the call centre. In most businesses, most incumbent businesses today is a call is a cost center because it's something that you sort of essentially have to deal with once this product has been sold. And it's not a place that most executives in most businesses want to go. In fact, in many cases it's been sent to other countries. Your contact center is You don't even know where it is. It's in the Philippines or it's and you know, some other country or it's in India or it's it's in a state, you know, less expensive state, which is all fine. But it's not fine that executives and companies don't want to go and see where the frontline of their business is, which is the place where they that experience meets the customer. So if you're an incumbent, you really have to think about, you know, you have to think about putting your contact center as a priority for your business and re imagining the experience and look, go walk a day in their shoes and experience what it's like. >> One of the things that we've been reporting on over the years and and you know you've been following the Cube and it's looking angle is the talk of CX or custom experience been going on for many, many years, somewhat aspirational outside of the corner cases of companies that actually specialize in, you know, differentiating on customer satisfaction and user experience. And that's obvious than you check the box there. But as as the market changes its now attainable, we're seeing that the rial actionable execution for companies to modernize what was once a call. Soon, as you pointed out, >> how do they >> do that? What's what's happening? Certainly, cloud computing helps data, and I are kind of at the table. How does a company that wants to modernize and have a real advantage and change their business business approach? What do they do? What's the What's the plan? You guys seem to be position for that. What do I do? What's the playbook? >> Go to Five9.com. No. The reality is that the first thing you have to do is really believe that this is an important aspect of delivering your business to your end consumer and and look at what's making up your competitors offer not just their product, but their offer and and sort of internalize and get the idea that OK, yes, this turns out it is important and I care about it. I'm going to go spend time on it because, look, the reality is we know how to deliver any business. You don't have to be a genius to figure out how to deliver great customer service. You know, what customers want is actually really simple. When I call you answer the phone. Don't send me through some rigmarole of IVRs and other technology hurdles. Don't hide your phone number when I want to get a hold of you make it easy for me to contact you. And when I contact you, what I want, I want someone who understands me. Who knows the problem that I have, Who's an expert who can help me and who has empathy, you know who can really connect with me and relate with me. And if there's a problem, it's not just about I'm going to solve the problem. But it's like we understand and we're sorry, you know, and we're going to make this better for you, and we're going to follow up with you, so that's a big part of what you have to-turns out doing that is not hard. You don't have to be a genius to figure out how to do it. Now. There are lots of technology companies that are out there today that make that easy. And the history of the Contact Center, essentially over the last twenty five years, has been essentially kind of stuck in the, you know, in a phone closet, somewheres with some technology that has actually hindered what smart people knew. We knew how to do this. We knew how to deliver a great experience. The problem was, you had like this legacy technology, and you had to call somebody in the data center somewhere else, and they were like, That's going to be hard. It's going to cost millions of dollars and our system doesn't support that. And so there is a technology sort of shackles that were on customer service experts and executives in businesses was like, Wow, that sounds like it's going to be expensive. It's going to take a long time now. We're in a world with the cloud where within a few clicks and a few minutes, You can deploy a contact center >> so we go to >> our side or other sites, and you can instantly have, you know, very, very quickly have a contact center that is modern that is flexible, that is, you know, has all the latest features and functionality. And so technology is no longer the hindrance that has been taken off the table. Our company was born in the cloud. There's other companies out there people can use. The bottom line is this is not really a technology problem anymore. >> So people have multiple devices and a lot of different channels of how people engaged. That's expectation on the Cust company side variety of sets of resource is that could be deployed at any given time. So you kind of have this now integrated kind of philosophy with cloud. How What does Cloud and Data? And now Aye, aye, due to the context. And how's the contact center change? Yeah. Does it look like >> that? Yes. Of the real, most important thing that has happened with the cloud computing wave is, you know, first that it made technology easy to consume. You know, it used to be really hard and expensive like we just talked about just to get technology. And then once you've got it, you were stuck with it and didn't change ever. Okay, we're kind of beyond that now with the cloud and that those were the table stakes. But something else happened when we started moving technology to the cloud that was more important. That and that was that we started collecting data, and as we started to collect data >> that >> became really interesting because of one other thing that happened, which was the revolution that happened in machine learning, and it started about ten years ago with some very, you know, big scientific breakthroughs on deep learning, more specifically, and what that deep learning approach needed was lots and lots and lots of data in order to work. It was a great scientific breakthrough, but it kind of stalled a little bit at the beginning because you didn't. There wasn't a lot of data out there that could actually you could get the benefits. Well, as companies have more, more been moving to the cloud. What that's creating his centers of data and not just data for your company, because lots of businesses don't have enough data actually to power machine learning algorithms. Machine learning algorithms are famously data hungry. You know that there's a famous saying from, you know, a bunch of folks in the AI industry. But it's that more data is better data. You know, the more you have, the better you are. In fact, you can also say that you know if you have more data, it's better than having a great algorithm right. The more data will always win. So what the cloud has unlocked is massive amounts of data, and that data is important to actually get at the root cause of the problem of bad customer service and support, which is with that data and the breakthroughs in machine learning. And that data in our industry is customer conversations. What your customers are actually telling you, either by text or by voice or by email that information is really interesting and can be married with machine learning technology to provide automation. It's >> interesting you mentioned customer. I think that's, I think, a key point. And you know, as we look at the data world, people look at certainly from a tech perspective that supply technology to data great that could assist then things. But we tell what customers and you're in business to serve customers. That's probably most valuable data. So as you said earlier, people hide the phone Or is it that they want to shy away from engaging with customers to not support them or hope they go away? They might be indifferent of serving them. You're saying the reverse Be proactive, engaged the customer, get that data so you can iterated on that. So I get that I think that Israel innovation in terms of the direction but as you did with customers is also the human side of it. Yeah, customers want to know that there's someone on the other side. You brought your garage organizing system because that component, how is the role of humans and machines impacting this new transformation from customer center to custom contact Sent it to essentially customer center. Yeah, what is the What is that piece of human? Super important? >> Yeah, we don't see technology replacing all the humans, actually, because and this goes back to my experience in the in the contact center many years ago. And, you know, many years ago. And my observation was and I, in fact, my first job I said, you know, in between two different agents and one of them was named Dave and one was named Ken. And Ken was really warm and effusive, and he got, I remember, he used to get gifts on his desk from customers. They would send him flowers and chocolates and, you know, like their products and so on. And he could tell a customer to shut up in a nice way, and they would love him after it. I mean, it was amazing that he could do this. It was all about empathy. He didn't. He didn't actually know all the answers to all of the questions. But he created these, like, incredible fans amongst the customers. The guy to my right, Dave, he was super smart. He just had, like, as much empathy as a rock. And he could answer all the questions really fast. Okay, And I So I use that cause I would learn things from him, but customers didn't like him. And the answer, you know, what I saw in those two folks, was that you can't do one or the other. You need both And what computers, are and what machine learning specifically. But now that we're getting all this data through the cloud is is able to do is we're able to predict the answers to what customers. You know what the questions from customers will to predict those things really quickly. So that's a sort of a mastery, so machines can help with mastery. They can help with being able to answer every question instantly or know the best thing to say at it to a customer at any given time. But what machines can't do is empathy. Humans are the ones that have to bring the heart. So what we're working on at Five9 is using machines to help agents. Human agents give them mastery, and we're letting the humans then focus on what they do really well, which is bringing the heart to the customer. And that creates a a bond between a brand and a customer that is like, unbreakable. >> I think you're onto something big here because we look a digital, the impact of digital technologies And you could look at variety examples mainstream media to technology companies to any kind of industry of vertical. There's a lot lack of emotional I Q or emotional quotient, and this seems to be what people are looking at you. I'm just looking further than some of the polarization in with digital in terms of media coverage, politics or whatnot. You started to see this focus on how to bring Mohr empathy and Mohr emotional like, yeah, two systems. And I think users are responding to that. Can you comment on your reaction to that? >> Yeah, part of this starts with confusion that the contact that is rampant in the contact centre industry, which is that people don't really want to talk anymore. And, you know, this has been observed because of the fact that, you know, we have new generations entering the work force like millennials. You know, we'll have our kids out there who would prefer to text us than talkto us often. But the reality is, and we surveyed this that actually even millennials still prefer voice as the primary form of communication and and that what has happened, that is the mistake. What is the error that people made? The error that people made is assuming that no, if it were actually conflating a bad voice experience with the fact that voice is bad and that's just not true, and it's observable. Not too. We've gone and actually proven this. So So what we've sort of realised is that what you need to fix is the bad voice experience. What is that? It's like, Wait, going into an Ivy are Okay, That's frustrating. You know what's >> a G are real quick to >> find the interactive voice response. So it's the push one for this push to for that. Everybody hates everyone hates, you know, every company uses it, and it's like a stain on humanity. We need to get rid of those things because they're just awful. So you go into this tree and all that, Okay, so get rid of it. By the way, everybody, you know, five years ago said, Oh, we can fix that problem with bots. Oh, and that actually is almost worse. You know, I've been trying to use bots for the last three months. I've been doing my own little test on this and communicating, you know, using only using text and whenever I hit a But it's like the last thing I want to do is talk to a computer. I want to get to a human. So my first question now is Are you human, which is my version of push zero to get through the I v. R. Gets again to an agent. Okay, so you know, there's been a confusion about this, and when you go back to what you had said earlier, this notion that users that, you know, the empathy is what has tend to be lost. Well, turns out it's much harder to make a emotional connection on text. Then it is with voice, and people just in general are not as good at communicating that emotional content on text because they're not very good writers generally, and they don't have time, Whereas they're excellent at doing that with their voice. You know, I'm not happy verses. I'm not happy, you know, there's a huge range of emotion that commune can be communicated with the human voice, which is extremely powerful. So if we can fix the bad voice experience, take away all that crap so that when you get someone they know, you know they know who you are. It's a you know, if they understand you, they can get to the root cause of your problem very quickly. Then it turns out that the human voice is extremely useful and and we're in now entering into an era where we can use the computer to talk to humans in unique and interesting ways now that I believe is actually still a little bit further out because of a variety of reasons. But in the meantime, computers and a I can help agents master their craft and let them focus on the embassy side of >> things. So in terms of Five9, the core problem that you're solving is what. >> So we provide a flexible, easy to configure, easy to deploy, cloud based contact center. OK, and it's it's it's it's minutes or hours before you can have this technology deployed. You don't need to have a phone system. So you look at a call center that sort of from the old days, and it's like lots of phones on desks in our world. You sweep those away. You have a computer in a Web browser. You plug in a headset, your agent could be sitting anywhere in the world. They get a beautiful web UI that's deeply integrated into Sales Force or Zen desk or service. Now >> our Oracle or >> any CRM system that you have, and we give you this really, really tightly integrated end to end experience. And we just make all of that easy and it handles any kind of contact, whether it's voice or text or email, it all goes through our system. It's all in the cloud. It's really easy and it's affordable. >> And the data management is pretty straight forward. Is that going to be flexible and agile enough to use with other things as people start having different touchpoints? >> Absolutely. In fact, with our system, all your calls are recorded into the cloud, as are all of your contacts. All of that is stored securely in our servers and is accessible to you. You can. There's a whole range of APS in the contact center. You can plug in on >> top of our platform >> and including things like variant Collab Rios. You know this whole area of workforce optimization and and so on, so lots and lots of technologies are actually built on Five9. So when you, by our technology, really banged up technology platform with ah rich ecosystem of APS that plug in on top of it and where we sit really in that value chain, you know, is the core platform that delivers that delivers the data and the pipes, and we sort of provide the intelligence. Also, that runs on top of that data, and that's where we're heading >> and that's your core innovation. Pretty much get that cloud based in it up fast. Get the focus on >> that part of it, and I'd say the second part of it that's sort of product on platform. The second part is really the offer. So it turns out that if you go to most companies, the things that make their customer experience poor that they want to fix, ah, solvable through capabilities that are already available in the platforms that they generally already have. What they're missing is a partner who can help them make that happen because it turns out it's not easy. You know, we've got a very flexible platform. It's been built over more than a decade, so it's like, really rich and in features. But the question and more and more what we see our customers wanting from us is a complete offer, and that includes professional services on site support, you know, people to help you, you know, handhold walk you through that process so well, kind of go the extra mile for our customers and give them in end end solution to their problem, not just a piece of technology. Now, if just technology is what you wanted, Our technology works for businesses with two support center reps. So it's, you know, weeks scale >> all the >> way down to folks. But we also have context are running that have for thousand reps. So we run that entire that entire spectrum for the small customers. They want something easy pre configured off the shelf. Just go. Okay, There's nobody coming on site for those customers. You have four thousand reps, We've got people on site. We darken the skies with our support people and our our engineers and everyone else actually provide a complete solution to our customers. >> That's great. We'll congratulate. I think having that innovation and having the cloud approach gets it up fast, gets the value delivered. And then as they grow, you can flex it, flex with flex the size, the organization not limited. So I want to get Teo. You're doing a panel discussion. Enterprise connect coming up in Orlando That's where we first met. This has been a show that's been talking to the enterprise customers who are been evolving from voice over i. P. Integrated communications, unified communications. Though that world of voice, data and systems to now and open cloud based data A. I So should be exciting. Yeah, panel want to get I don't want to give it away, but what are you talking about? The title is why customer engagements leading the Enterprise communications conversation Give us a quick teaser. What? >> I'm going to be focused on what's coming next, and one of the big reasons that drove me to this company that's attracted some top talent in the industry is that many of us see that the era of the cloud has actually opened these golden doors to a new land, which is powered by artificial intelligence and machine learning, and that we see that solving some of the root cause problems that we talked about earlier, bad customer service and experience that have essentially been talked about for a long time but haven't been solved. That finally, the technology is actually caught up to the problem. And so our big play at Five9 is to become the world's best self learning intelligent contact center platform. And we see that the Contact Center has--is shifting from being less a contact center and more a center of customer data and that that is the key insight that that is the key and said that we had is that wow, this is a lot of really interesting data, you know? Turns out what your customers say to you. It's really, really important. And today, in almost all contact centers, almost everywhere that data goes nowhere. It goes away because it's not very useful. Most of the most of what customers they're telling you is actually voice traffic, and that sits in wave files. If you recorded at all, which many customers don't and then they're not very useful, so they get thrown away. We figured out that that information is ridiculously valuable, but it's only become valuable recently because of advances in machine learning that allow us to do speech to text reliably as good as humans. Okay, speech to text has been around for a while. It's just been really crappy. Now it's really good. And now that it's gotten really good and affordable. Every customer can take advantage of it. So because all of our customers have all of their data stored on our cloud and all calls get recorded, we can now start to translate those voice wave files into text and provide that as insight back to the customer. We signed a partnership with Google to leverage their technology to help us make sense of all of those spoken conversations and then, ultimately all of the text. So we believe the next generation of the Contact Center is going to be less about a contact center and more about a center of customer data, which can be used to drive automation and insight back into the business. That's the big transformation for the next decade in the Contact Center. >> taking the Contact center making gets a customer center. This is kind of compatible with >> Hostage Data Center. That's runner of customer data. >> I mean, it's it's really kind of in line with how dev ops change cloud computing, where you had Devon ops coming together and you're taking that concept, that ethos to the context center, You know? Look, >> um, >> I'm not sure that it's exactly like Deb ops, but I guess you could draw that correlation. I think what you do see in businesses that there's new functions >> popping up all >> the time. A recent function that's popped up his customer, uh, customer success and what his customers success. It's all about reaching out to your customer to help make them successful in the insight that led to customers successes. When you have a services business, if you engage with your customer proactively, you actually can make more money and drive higher value both for the customer and for the business. And you know, I relate this back to my first experience in business, and I remember and I was in support and we're on the twelfth floor. We had a >> whole floor of people, >> and I remember our boss came down one day and they said something really interesting. They said Every time you guys pick up the phone, we lose money. I mean, if you can believe that is that it is now. It sounds crazy, but that's what happened in America. I felt kind of bad about that was like, Wow, I don't want to answer the phone, but it's ringing all the time. So what am I going to do? Well, the answer was we hired someone, not me. But the team hired someone to hide the phone number, which is sort of logical if you're told that when you pick up the phone, you're going to lose money. What do you want to get less phone calls? Well, how are you going to do that? Well, the company's customers can't find about Guess what tons of customers did this other thing we did? Was we employment in an i. V. R. Let's try and give themselves service. So they really the motivation >> of hiding the customer experience that we were running away from the customer experience, >> that iron Iwas and this is in hindsight. I see this that right on the floor above me was it wasn't the thirteenth. It was the fourteenth floor. It was a sales floor and they were doing everything they could tow proactively reach out and contact customers who didn't want to really hear from here from the sales people. So you had this situation. We had a floor of people, my floor, which were sort of running away from customers and a floor of people they were trying to run towards customers and like we're both missing them. It was insane. And what's now transpired in businesses that people get this and go? Wow. If I can deliver a great experience, it actually increases loyalty. It increases the amount of services that my customer will get. They get more value, I get more value. We want to run way, want to run towards customers. We want to reduce the distance between a business and their customer to zero. We want that to be like this kind of connection. We want our businesses, you know, their customers, toe love them. And the way that you get that love actually often comes through the contact Center. So it's becoming much more >> strategic, connecting in, engaging with customers. We're only going >> to be powered by machine learning like you can't do this. Okay? Just by going, I mean, you could do it by hiring lots and lots of humans, but it's really expensive. OK? Does not scale. So the only answer to this problem, which we know how to solve, is toe leverage technology. And it starts in the cloud. >> Right? Great stuff. We'll see you at Enterprise Connect the Cube will be there and great degree to see you. Thanks for coming and great to see this's The Cube Conversation Special Cube comes here in Palo Alto. Grown trial of CEO of Five9. Solving the contact problem. Bring it in. Modernizing it. Running towards customers Customer engagement and big panel coming up. Enterprise connect. I'm John for here in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching.

>> Live, from Las Vegas, it's the Cube, covering AWS re:Invent 2018, brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back everyone, live here in Las Vegas for AWS re:Invent 2018, all the action is happening for Amazon Web Services. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, Dave six years covering Amazon, great opportunity, a lot of news, Red Hat is a big part of it, Mike Ferris is here. Vice President, Technical Business Development for Red Hat, welcome back, good to see you. >> Likewise. >> A lot's going with you guys since our Red Hat Summit days in San Francisco just a few months ago. >> Yeah. >> Big news hit. >> Yeah. >> The bomb around the world, the rock that hit the ground really hard, shook everyone up, surprised everyone including me, I'm like "Wow, IBM and Red Hat". What an interesting relationship, obviously the history with IBM has been good. Talk about the announcement with IBM because this is huge. Of course, big numbers, but also impact wise pretty big. >> Yeah, it's exciting times right? And if you kind of look at, you know, from the perspective of Red Hat in this, this will allow us to really scale and accelerate what we've already been doing for the past, you know, since really the 1994 era when Red Hat was founded and, you know, it kind of validates a lot of what we've put into open source and enterprise customers since then. You know, we really see a couple of key outtakes from this, one of which is, certainly it's going to give us the resources to be able to really grow with the scale that we need to. It's also going to allow us to invest more in open source in emerging areas, bring the value of scale and certainly choice and flexibility to more customers, and then ultimately kind of the global advantage of hybrid and multi cloud, we'll be able to reach more partners and customers everywhere, and it puts us several years ahead of where we have been and where we would have been frankly, and ultimately our intent is that with IBM we'll become the leading hybrid and multi cloud provider overall. >> Yeah, Jimmy and Jim Whitehurst kind of ruined our Sunday, we were sitting down to watch football and he's like got the announcement. And then Jimmy kept saying "It's not backend loaded, it's not backend loaded" and then you start to realize, wow, IBM has an enormous business of managing applications that need to be modernized and OpenShift is obviously a great place to do that so, it's got to be super exciting for you guys to have that giant new opportunity to go after as well as global scale that you didn't have before. >> And, you know, this extends the stuff that we did, announced in May at Red Hat Summit with IBM where we really focused on how do we take WebSphere DB2MQ, running on IBM cloud private, running on OpenShift, and make that the hybrid choice. And so it's a natural extension of what we've already been doing and it gives us a lot more resources than we would have otherwise. >> This is good, coming into the next segment I want to chat about is RHEL, and what people might not understand from the announcment is the synergy you guys have with IBM because, being a student of Red Hat, being just in the industry when you guys were rebels, open source, second tier citizen, and the enterprise, the adoption then became tier one service. I mean you guys have, level of service, 17 years or something, huge numbers, but remember where it all started. And then you became a tier one supplier to almost all the enterprises, so you're actually a product company as well as a huge open source player. That's powerful and unique. >> Absolutely, even if you look at kind of what Amazon is doing this week and have been doing over the years, they're a huge value ad provider of open source technology as well, and one of the statements that we've always made is, the public cloud would not exist if not for Linux and open source, and so everything has been based upon that. There's one provider that doesn't use Linux as the base of their platform but certainly as we've taken the in roads into the enterprise, you know, I was there when it started with just turning Red Hat Enterprise Linux on and then bringing it from the edge of network into the data center and talking about major providers like Oracle, HP, Del, IBM as part of that. Now, we're looking at "Is it a de facto standard?", and everyone including Amazon and all of it's competitors are really invested heavily in the open source world. >> And so, let's talk about the impact to the products, okay so one of the things that has come up, at least on my Twitter feed and the conversations is, okay, it's going to take some time to close the deal, you're still Red Hat, you're still doing your things, what's the impact to the customers and to the ecosystem in your mind? How are you guys talking about that right now? Obviously, it's more of the same, keep the Red Hat same, unique, independent, what new thing is going to come out of it? >> So, to be clear, the deal has not closed, right, so there's not a lot we're going to say otherwise. >> A year away, you got a lot of work to do. >> Our focus is what it always has been. Let's build the best enterprise products using the open source development model and make those available across all public and hybrid cloud environments. >> At a certain level, that's enterprise, multi-year, old Red Hat, same Red Hat model, alright. >> But let me follow up on that, because you're a believer in multi cloud, we're a believer in, whatever you call it, multiple clouds, customers are going to use multiple clouds. We believe that, you believe that, it seems like Amazon has a slightly different perspective on that, >> Cause they're one cloud. >> in that this greater value, right cause they're one cloud, there's greater value, but it seems like the reality when you talk to customers is, we're not just one company, we've got different divisions, and eventually we've got to bring those together in some kind of extraction layer. That's what you guys want to be, right? So, your perspectives on multi cloud? >> Absolutely, so, each individual department, each project, each developer, in all of these major enterprises, you know, has a different vantage, and yes, there are corporate standards, golden masters of RHEL that get produced, everybody's supposed to be using, but you know, the practicalities of how you develop software, especially in the age of dev ops and containers and moving forward is actually, you have to have the choice necessary to meet your specific needs, and while we will absolutely do everything we can to make sure that things are consistent, I mean, we started this with RHEL consistency, on and off premise, when we did the original Amazon relationship. The point is, you need to be able to give people the flexibility and choice that they desire, regardless of what area of the company that they're in, and that's going to be the focus, regardless of whether it's Microsoft, Amazon, Google, IBM clouds, international clouds with Alibaba, it's all the same to us and we have to make sure it's there. >> What's always great about the cloud shows, especially this one, it's one of my favorites, because it really is dev ops deep in the mindset culture. As you see AI and machine learning start to get powered by all these great resources, computer, et cetera, the developer is going crazy, there's going to be another renaissance in software development, and then you got things like Kubernetes and containers now mainstream. Kubernetes almost, I say, de facto standard. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely happened, you guys had a big part of making that happen. People are now agreeing on things, so the formation's coming together pretty quickly, you're seeing the growth, we're hearing terms like "co-creation", "co-opetition", those are signals for a large rising tide, your thoughts? >> So, it's interesting, we were an early investor in Kubernetes, we actually launched OpenShift prior to Kubernetes, and then we adopted it and made a shift of our platform before it was too late. We did the same thing with hypervisors when we moved from Zen to KBM, but this overall approach is, once we see the energy happening both in the community and the early customers, then you see the partners start to come on board, it becomes the de facto standard, it's really crucial for us as an open source company to make sure we follow those trends, and then we help mature them across the business ecosystem, and that's something we've loved being able to engage with. I mean, Google certainly instigated the Kubernetes movement, but then it starts to propagate, just like on the open stack side, it came out of Rackspace and Nasa and then moved on to different areas and so, you know, our focus is, how do we continue that choice and that evolution overall? >> How would you talk about the impact of Kubernetes if someone says "Hey Mike, what's the real impact, what is it going to accomplish at the end of the day?" What's your view of that? >> It will have the same impact that the Linux current standardization has had, you know, but in this case for micro services and application packaging and being able to do dev ops much more efficiently across heterogeneous platforms. >> Does it make it easier or less painful or does it go away? Is it automated under the covers? I mean, this is a big, awesome opportunity. >> So the orchestration capabilities of Kubernetes combined with all the other tools that surround key container platforms like OpenShift, really give that developer the full life cycle environment to be able to take something from concept through deployment, and onto the maintenance phases, and you know, what we end up doing is we look at, okay the technologies are there, what value ads to we have around that to make sure that a customer and a developer cn actually maintain this thing long term and keep their enterprise applications up? >> So, security for example. >> Security is a great example, right? How do we make sure that every container that gets deployed on Kubernetes platforms or by Kubernetes platforms, that every container that's deployed which, keep in mind, is an operating system, it has an operating system in the container itself, how is that kept up to date? How do you make sure that when the next security errata is released, from us or a different vendor possibly, how do you make sure that that container is secure? And, you know, we've done a lot in our registry as well as our catalog to make sure that all of our partners and customers can see their containers, know what grade they have in a security context, and be able to grow that. That's one of the core things that we see adding into this Kubernetes value and authorization level. >> It's not a trivial technical problem either. >> No. >> Sometimes micro services aren't so micro. >> It's been part of what we've for RHEL from the start, it's been how do we bring that enterprise value into technology that is maturing out of the open source community and make that available to customers? >> Yeah, one of the key things you guys, first of all, OpenShift has been phenomenal, you guys did a great job with that, been watching that grow, but I think a real seminal moment was the CoreOS acquisition. >> Sure. >> That was a real turbo boost for you guys, great acquisition, fits in with the culture, and then Kubernetes just lifted from that, that was the point but, at the timing of all this, Kubernetes gets mainstream lift, people recognize that the standardization it is a good thing, and then, boom, developers are getting engaged. >> Yeah, and if you see what the CoreOS environment has brought us from over their updates for our platforms, to being able to talk about a registry in the environment. Being able to say that, is kind of additive to this overall messaging, it really rounds out the offering for us, and allows us to participate even more deeply in the communities as well. >> Well, we're looking forward to keeping you covered, we love Kubernetes, we've got a special report called "Kubernetes Special Report" on siliconangle.com, it's called "The Rise Of Kubernetes", it's a dedicated set of content, we're publishing a lot on Kubernetes. Final question I want to get to you because I think it's super important, what's the relationship you have with AWS? And take some time to explain the partnership, how many years, what you guys are doing together, I know you're actively involved, so take a minute. >> It is somewhat blurry, it's been a long time, so 2007 era is when we started in depth with them, and I can remember the early days, actually in the development of S3, prior to EC2, being able to say alright, what is this thing and how does Red Hat participate in this? And I think, yesterday Terry Wiese even mentioned that we were one of the first partners to actually engage in the consumption model and, you know, claiming partial credit for out 34 billion dollar valuation that we just got announced. But, you know, overall the relationship really spawned out of that, how do we help build a cloud and how do we help offer our products to our customers in a more flexible way? And so that snowballed over the years from just early adopters being able to play with it to now where you see it's many many millions of dollars that are being generated in customers and they think, in the hundreds of millions of hours of our products being consumed, at least within a month if not shorter timeframes, every time period we have. >> You know that's an unsung benefit that people might not know about with Red Hat is that, you guys are in early markets because, one, everyone uses Linux pretty much these days for anything core, meaningful. And you listen to community, and so you guys are always involved in big moving things, cloud, Amazon, 2007, it was command line back then. >> Yeah. >> It wasn't even, I think RightScale just came online that year, so you remember. You guys are always in all these markets so it's a good indicator, you guys are a bellwether, I think it's a good beacon to look at. >> And we do this, certainly on the container space, and the middleware space, and the storage space, you know, we replicate this model and, including in management, about how do we actually invest in the right places where we see the industry and communities going so we can actually help those? >> And you're very partner friendly, you bring a lot to the table, I love the open source ethos, I think that's the future. The future of that ethos of contributing to get value downstream is going to be a business practice, not just software, so you guys are a big part of the industry on that and I want to give you guys props for that. Okay, more Cube coverage here in Las Vegas, AWS Reinvent, after this short break, more live coverage, I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, we'll be right back. (electronic music)