>> Live, from Las Vegas, it's the Cube, covering AWS re:Invent 2018, brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back everyone, live here in Las Vegas for AWS re:Invent 2018, all the action is happening for Amazon Web Services. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, Dave six years covering Amazon, great opportunity, a lot of news, Red Hat is a big part of it, Mike Ferris is here. Vice President, Technical Business Development for Red Hat, welcome back, good to see you. >> Likewise. >> A lot's going with you guys since our Red Hat Summit days in San Francisco just a few months ago. >> Yeah. >> Big news hit. >> Yeah. >> The bomb around the world, the rock that hit the ground really hard, shook everyone up, surprised everyone including me, I'm like "Wow, IBM and Red Hat". What an interesting relationship, obviously the history with IBM has been good. Talk about the announcement with IBM because this is huge. Of course, big numbers, but also impact wise pretty big. >> Yeah, it's exciting times right? And if you kind of look at, you know, from the perspective of Red Hat in this, this will allow us to really scale and accelerate what we've already been doing for the past, you know, since really the 1994 era when Red Hat was founded and, you know, it kind of validates a lot of what we've put into open source and enterprise customers since then. You know, we really see a couple of key outtakes from this, one of which is, certainly it's going to give us the resources to be able to really grow with the scale that we need to. It's also going to allow us to invest more in open source in emerging areas, bring the value of scale and certainly choice and flexibility to more customers, and then ultimately kind of the global advantage of hybrid and multi cloud, we'll be able to reach more partners and customers everywhere, and it puts us several years ahead of where we have been and where we would have been frankly, and ultimately our intent is that with IBM we'll become the leading hybrid and multi cloud provider overall. >> Yeah, Jimmy and Jim Whitehurst kind of ruined our Sunday, we were sitting down to watch football and he's like got the announcement. And then Jimmy kept saying "It's not backend loaded, it's not backend loaded" and then you start to realize, wow, IBM has an enormous business of managing applications that need to be modernized and OpenShift is obviously a great place to do that so, it's got to be super exciting for you guys to have that giant new opportunity to go after as well as global scale that you didn't have before. >> And, you know, this extends the stuff that we did, announced in May at Red Hat Summit with IBM where we really focused on how do we take WebSphere DB2MQ, running on IBM cloud private, running on OpenShift, and make that the hybrid choice. And so it's a natural extension of what we've already been doing and it gives us a lot more resources than we would have otherwise. >> This is good, coming into the next segment I want to chat about is RHEL, and what people might not understand from the announcment is the synergy you guys have with IBM because, being a student of Red Hat, being just in the industry when you guys were rebels, open source, second tier citizen, and the enterprise, the adoption then became tier one service. I mean you guys have, level of service, 17 years or something, huge numbers, but remember where it all started. And then you became a tier one supplier to almost all the enterprises, so you're actually a product company as well as a huge open source player. That's powerful and unique. >> Absolutely, even if you look at kind of what Amazon is doing this week and have been doing over the years, they're a huge value ad provider of open source technology as well, and one of the statements that we've always made is, the public cloud would not exist if not for Linux and open source, and so everything has been based upon that. There's one provider that doesn't use Linux as the base of their platform but certainly as we've taken the in roads into the enterprise, you know, I was there when it started with just turning Red Hat Enterprise Linux on and then bringing it from the edge of network into the data center and talking about major providers like Oracle, HP, Del, IBM as part of that. Now, we're looking at "Is it a de facto standard?", and everyone including Amazon and all of it's competitors are really invested heavily in the open source world. >> And so, let's talk about the impact to the products, okay so one of the things that has come up, at least on my Twitter feed and the conversations is, okay, it's going to take some time to close the deal, you're still Red Hat, you're still doing your things, what's the impact to the customers and to the ecosystem in your mind? How are you guys talking about that right now? Obviously, it's more of the same, keep the Red Hat same, unique, independent, what new thing is going to come out of it? >> So, to be clear, the deal has not closed, right, so there's not a lot we're going to say otherwise. >> A year away, you got a lot of work to do. >> Our focus is what it always has been. Let's build the best enterprise products using the open source development model and make those available across all public and hybrid cloud environments. >> At a certain level, that's enterprise, multi-year, old Red Hat, same Red Hat model, alright. >> But let me follow up on that, because you're a believer in multi cloud, we're a believer in, whatever you call it, multiple clouds, customers are going to use multiple clouds. We believe that, you believe that, it seems like Amazon has a slightly different perspective on that, >> Cause they're one cloud. >> in that this greater value, right cause they're one cloud, there's greater value, but it seems like the reality when you talk to customers is, we're not just one company, we've got different divisions, and eventually we've got to bring those together in some kind of extraction layer. That's what you guys want to be, right? So, your perspectives on multi cloud? >> Absolutely, so, each individual department, each project, each developer, in all of these major enterprises, you know, has a different vantage, and yes, there are corporate standards, golden masters of RHEL that get produced, everybody's supposed to be using, but you know, the practicalities of how you develop software, especially in the age of dev ops and containers and moving forward is actually, you have to have the choice necessary to meet your specific needs, and while we will absolutely do everything we can to make sure that things are consistent, I mean, we started this with RHEL consistency, on and off premise, when we did the original Amazon relationship. The point is, you need to be able to give people the flexibility and choice that they desire, regardless of what area of the company that they're in, and that's going to be the focus, regardless of whether it's Microsoft, Amazon, Google, IBM clouds, international clouds with Alibaba, it's all the same to us and we have to make sure it's there. >> What's always great about the cloud shows, especially this one, it's one of my favorites, because it really is dev ops deep in the mindset culture. As you see AI and machine learning start to get powered by all these great resources, computer, et cetera, the developer is going crazy, there's going to be another renaissance in software development, and then you got things like Kubernetes and containers now mainstream. Kubernetes almost, I say, de facto standard. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely happened, you guys had a big part of making that happen. People are now agreeing on things, so the formation's coming together pretty quickly, you're seeing the growth, we're hearing terms like "co-creation", "co-opetition", those are signals for a large rising tide, your thoughts? >> So, it's interesting, we were an early investor in Kubernetes, we actually launched OpenShift prior to Kubernetes, and then we adopted it and made a shift of our platform before it was too late. We did the same thing with hypervisors when we moved from Zen to KBM, but this overall approach is, once we see the energy happening both in the community and the early customers, then you see the partners start to come on board, it becomes the de facto standard, it's really crucial for us as an open source company to make sure we follow those trends, and then we help mature them across the business ecosystem, and that's something we've loved being able to engage with. I mean, Google certainly instigated the Kubernetes movement, but then it starts to propagate, just like on the open stack side, it came out of Rackspace and Nasa and then moved on to different areas and so, you know, our focus is, how do we continue that choice and that evolution overall? >> How would you talk about the impact of Kubernetes if someone says "Hey Mike, what's the real impact, what is it going to accomplish at the end of the day?" What's your view of that? >> It will have the same impact that the Linux current standardization has had, you know, but in this case for micro services and application packaging and being able to do dev ops much more efficiently across heterogeneous platforms. >> Does it make it easier or less painful or does it go away? Is it automated under the covers? I mean, this is a big, awesome opportunity. >> So the orchestration capabilities of Kubernetes combined with all the other tools that surround key container platforms like OpenShift, really give that developer the full life cycle environment to be able to take something from concept through deployment, and onto the maintenance phases, and you know, what we end up doing is we look at, okay the technologies are there, what value ads to we have around that to make sure that a customer and a developer cn actually maintain this thing long term and keep their enterprise applications up? >> So, security for example. >> Security is a great example, right? How do we make sure that every container that gets deployed on Kubernetes platforms or by Kubernetes platforms, that every container that's deployed which, keep in mind, is an operating system, it has an operating system in the container itself, how is that kept up to date? How do you make sure that when the next security errata is released, from us or a different vendor possibly, how do you make sure that that container is secure? And, you know, we've done a lot in our registry as well as our catalog to make sure that all of our partners and customers can see their containers, know what grade they have in a security context, and be able to grow that. That's one of the core things that we see adding into this Kubernetes value and authorization level. >> It's not a trivial technical problem either. >> No. >> Sometimes micro services aren't so micro. >> It's been part of what we've for RHEL from the start, it's been how do we bring that enterprise value into technology that is maturing out of the open source community and make that available to customers? >> Yeah, one of the key things you guys, first of all, OpenShift has been phenomenal, you guys did a great job with that, been watching that grow, but I think a real seminal moment was the CoreOS acquisition. >> Sure. >> That was a real turbo boost for you guys, great acquisition, fits in with the culture, and then Kubernetes just lifted from that, that was the point but, at the timing of all this, Kubernetes gets mainstream lift, people recognize that the standardization it is a good thing, and then, boom, developers are getting engaged. >> Yeah, and if you see what the CoreOS environment has brought us from over their updates for our platforms, to being able to talk about a registry in the environment. Being able to say that, is kind of additive to this overall messaging, it really rounds out the offering for us, and allows us to participate even more deeply in the communities as well. >> Well, we're looking forward to keeping you covered, we love Kubernetes, we've got a special report called "Kubernetes Special Report" on siliconangle.com, it's called "The Rise Of Kubernetes", it's a dedicated set of content, we're publishing a lot on Kubernetes. Final question I want to get to you because I think it's super important, what's the relationship you have with AWS? And take some time to explain the partnership, how many years, what you guys are doing together, I know you're actively involved, so take a minute. >> It is somewhat blurry, it's been a long time, so 2007 era is when we started in depth with them, and I can remember the early days, actually in the development of S3, prior to EC2, being able to say alright, what is this thing and how does Red Hat participate in this? And I think, yesterday Terry Wiese even mentioned that we were one of the first partners to actually engage in the consumption model and, you know, claiming partial credit for out 34 billion dollar valuation that we just got announced. But, you know, overall the relationship really spawned out of that, how do we help build a cloud and how do we help offer our products to our customers in a more flexible way? And so that snowballed over the years from just early adopters being able to play with it to now where you see it's many many millions of dollars that are being generated in customers and they think, in the hundreds of millions of hours of our products being consumed, at least within a month if not shorter timeframes, every time period we have. >> You know that's an unsung benefit that people might not know about with Red Hat is that, you guys are in early markets because, one, everyone uses Linux pretty much these days for anything core, meaningful. And you listen to community, and so you guys are always involved in big moving things, cloud, Amazon, 2007, it was command line back then. >> Yeah. >> It wasn't even, I think RightScale just came online that year, so you remember. You guys are always in all these markets so it's a good indicator, you guys are a bellwether, I think it's a good beacon to look at. >> And we do this, certainly on the container space, and the middleware space, and the storage space, you know, we replicate this model and, including in management, about how do we actually invest in the right places where we see the industry and communities going so we can actually help those? >> And you're very partner friendly, you bring a lot to the table, I love the open source ethos, I think that's the future. The future of that ethos of contributing to get value downstream is going to be a business practice, not just software, so you guys are a big part of the industry on that and I want to give you guys props for that. Okay, more Cube coverage here in Las Vegas, AWS Reinvent, after this short break, more live coverage, I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, we'll be right back. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCube. Covering DevNet Create 2017, brought to you by Cisco. >> Hey welcome back everyone. Live here in San Francisco, exclusive coverage with theCube at Cisco's inaugural DevNet Create event. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Peter Burris. We're breaking down the new foray into the open source world with a big presence. Cisco expanding their DevNet core developer classic program and creating an open source model with collaboration, 90% of that activity is non-Cisco, really a good formula. And to help us this down is Krish Subramanian, Principal Analyst at Rishidot Research, formerly of Red Hat, formerly of a start up that was recently sold. Can't talk about it because it's not released yet. Friend of theCube, Cube alumni, part of the Clouderati, going way back. Krish, we've seen a lot of the waves of how cloud has evolved from the early days. I remember when EngineYard was a startup, Haruku was a couple guys, we were having our meetups. >> And the AWS was still like people who weren't able to make money. >> They were poo-pooing the hell out of it. It was EC2 and S3 with a couple different, I mean RightScale did everything back then, so think about the changes. And now Cisco here with the formula, they have the right formula, I got to give them props for that, doing it right. They're not trying to come in and do a land grab and sort of, "Ahh, we're Cisco", throwing their elbows around. Really doing it right, your thoughts? >> Yeah, definitely, come back to what some other legacy companies tried to do. Cisco didn't try to jump in and say, "Hey, we are going to run public cloud, compete with Amazon", and sort of take them down. They sort of waited for right moment, they initially started with the InterCloud, which will go much further, but when IoT came into picture, they were there right for that and they were there taking advantage of that. And with the increasing focus on developers, they are going right to capture the minds of developers. Especially for IoT, that is critical for Cisco to go-- >> Well, I'm really glad you're on with Peter. We have two analysts here who know the industry up and down, from every dimension. Of course, I'll add my color, but I want to ask both of you guys a couple questions. One, do you think Cisco's making the right moves by coming out and really focusing on their core competency, which is the network? They also bought AppDynamics, so that is a big purchase. So, you got apps meets infrastructure, programmable infrastructure, which means infrastructure as code. You really can't have infrastructure as code unless Cisco gets behind it, they're the leader. So, with IoT looming, this seems like a good move for Cisco. What do you think? >> Yeah, definitely, they are going in the right direction, so it's really like IoT's still in the early stages and we have to wait and see how it is going to evolve, but Cisco is very persistent. Especially I like the AppDynamics acquisition because they are clearly telling the world that we understand that applications are the future and developers need the right tools if they are to develop their apps on Cisco infrastructure. And with the emphasis on programmability, Cisco is taking right steps towards capturing developer attention and I hope with successful events like this, they will be able to get there. >> Peter, I want to go to you for a second because we just found out, in talking to Suzy, I did not know this, but in your previous life, when you ran research at META Group, folks may not know what that was, it was a big research firm at the time, you did some really similar work around the infrastructure developer. >> Yeah >> Okay, and our comment was, "What is old is now new". I got a degree in operating systems and computer science and that seems to be the model. What is this notion of an infrastructure developer? It was mentioned in the keynote today. Does that exist in this new scenario? Do you see it being viable? It seems like the messaging is tight. What is your reaction to this notion? You've done a lot of work on that. >> Well, as a way of answering the question John, and I'll play off of something you just said, when we talk about the degree with which this is relevant to Cisco, here's what I say. Everybody's always looking for what is it that's different from today, relative to yesterday? And there's a lot of things that are different. One of the most important ones is that yesterday's computing industry emphasized a priority set of models about how you do things. So, if you thought about the network, the network had a modeled structure. You sat there and you designed a network to be as relevant to as many things as possible. Same with the database. You sat there and you designed the database to be as relevant to whatever notion of applications. When we start talking about the new world, now what we're discovering is the data is going to force a reconfiguration. That's what big data is. In many respects, it's non-structured, non-modeled data, but we still want to do analytics. Same thing with the network. We want the network to evolve and emerge, have emerging characteristics that allow us to do things that we never really anticipated when we first put this stuff down. And so, the thing that an infrastructure developer, at least as we conceived it, and we were way ahead and probably wrong for that reason, but the way we conceive it is someone has to take some degree of responsibility for starting to characterize, fill that gap, characterize the services in the infrastructure that need to be made available to application developers in a way that makes coherent and consistent sense so that an application written to an infrastructure, in fact, may become a service to another application at some point in time in the future, because they make consistent assumptions about where they operate within that margin between the application and the infrastructure. >> John: Does that environment exist today, in your opinion? >> It does in certain places. It does in certain places. I think the whole notion of containers is making, in Kubernetes for example, is making some very powerful presumptions about how applications are going to interact with each other in the future. Now, we had SOA, but we also talked about Conway's law, it just never happened because the structure of the organizations that were using SOA just guaranteed you end up with monolithic, crap applications anyway. >> Explain Conway's law real quick for people who didn't-- >> Yeah, Conway's law is, it's been mentioned in theCube a couple times, basically, it's a suggestion that the structure of the application is a reflection of the structure of the organization that created it. And so, if you have a silo-based application development organization that's looking at the application for the finance group, or the marketing group, you are going to get a structured, siloed-oriented application, no matter what underlying technology you use. And that's been that way forever. >> And so, Krish, I want to get your thoughts because let's take that to the next level. So, one of the benefits of cloud was horizontally scalable model. That really kind of, to me, was the big ah-ha moment around software. And with DevOps, which is now called cloud native, which is the same thing, infrastructures code was, hey, I'm not not an infrastructure person. I just want it to be available for me and help me configure it out and programmable, as Suzy was saying. Okay, so if you take what Peter's saying about data, you've lived through the infrastructure as a service, platform as a service, SAS wars or evolution, however you want to look at it. And, now you see that kind of coalescing into SAS and infrastructure and PAS kind of folding away and kind of becoming less of a contentious conversation. But, now that same thing's happening with data, we believe. I mean I think, maybe he may disagree, but now data's now the new data layer. What's your thoughts on that? Because now, if you inject data into what was the old cloud stack, new things are really possible. >> Yeah, the thing is, data brings in a new dimensionality to what we are seeing right now. Everything from infrastructure to application, everything requires a mindset change in terms of seeing them as services. So, even if it is a physical hardware you are dealing with, you have to make it more service-like by putting an API in front of it. So, it's changing the way how we consume these services. But, data is the one that is bringing business value to customers. When you make data easily, sort of like, inter operate with the services, let's say call it, for lack of a better term, a services ocean kind of IT model you have in your enterprise. So, when you offer to bring data into it, it offers you a lot of opportunities which didn't exist in the past. It opens up new avenues in which you could manipulate data, make sense out of it and probably get more value than what you were getting in the past. >> What's interesting, if you bring micro services, if you think about Docker and Kubernetes, as you were saying, and you bring data now into the equation and the notion of microservices, you can apply all that microservices knowledge to data. That's what you were saying, from what I hear. Or concepts of-- >> Sort of like you will bring data close to take, earlier as Peter pointed out, data was in silos, representative of the organizational structure. So, by taking a more services approach and spreading the services across these siloed, PAS, siloed organization, you are bringing the entire organization into one single umbrella, sharing the data and thereby benefiting much more than what they were getting in the past. >> So John, in the opening, one of the things we talked about, and I'll repeat it here because he's probably going to see it and I'd love to hear your comments on it, is that we went to hardware-defined networking. And then we went to software-defined networking. And, Wikibon's working on a proposition and I'm sure we'll find reasons why it's not going to play out, but again, I'd like to hear your position, is what I'll call data-defined infrastructure. So, we were on theCube last week at Informatica and we heard a lot about the role that metadata's going to play in discovery of data resources and whatnot. I can imagine adding metadata when we start talking about dependencies and time and location and things that are relevant to how a network or how an infrastructure might configure itself to serve the data, becoming a feature of the programmability of the underlying infrastructure so that we end up, in five years, we do talk about data-defined infrastructure. Just as today, we're talking about software-defined infrastructure, where the infrastructure, literally, responds to the needs of the data because that, ultimately, is the most flexible way of think about this. What do you think? >> Yeah, I fully agree with you. In fact, data brings in a new dimensionality to the equation where applications, it's a morph based on what is there in the data. So, on-the-fly, the infrastructure needs to be modified. So, data sort of brings in a new way of doing infrastructure from what we have done in the past. I fully agree with the role of data in that and how, through the application, that influences how we deal with infrastructure. It does change completely. >> All right, so I got to ask you guys a question. Journeys, is journey to DevOps, journey to digital transformation, certainly has a lot of cloud, has a lot of open source involved with it. We're seeing the Ford CEO get fired, he hasn't been on the job for four years, right? So, you guys both work with end users and advise them, so what's your advise to CXOs where, hey the clock now is, I thought four years was short. It really should be seven to 10 on the transformation scale, but people are getting axed in their third year, so they got to show results. How does an executive make all this stuff happen in such a short time? Or should they just reset expectations? >> When the executive comes in, he, or she, not only should look at their core business, they should also think that they are a technology business and change the mindset completely. That mindset change needs a push from the top that's going to accelerate the change down the lane and I think the executive should think that they are becoming a CEO, or CXO, of a technology company, rather than a manufacturing company or a automobile company kind of thing. >> I think that's true, but look, we haven't studied what happened at Ford in detail because I'm sure there's some subtleties in there that we just don't fully understand, but on the surface, it sounds like he might have gotten a little bit of a raw deal, just from the pure standpoint of-- >> Well the stock was down 39%, so my guess is total Wall Street hatchet job, but -- >> Peter: Exactly. >> We don't know a lot of the politics, but Val Bercovici, who was on earlier, who has a lot of experience in organizations that net app since 97, or late 90s, brought an interesting point, you were saying earlier. Tesla creates a car that's a service. And so, to me, I hate to use the cliche, "Everything as a service", but essentially, that's what software's going to. So, where you make up a day, that's why I'm kind of poking at the data thing because I think you're on to som-- >> But it's the end of the day, Tesla still has to have a shop that bends metal, there's still some car manufacturing things that have to happen. And, in many respects, whether the old CEO is saying, well the value proposition is, someday this autonomous vehicle is going to happen, but right now, we still got to build cars that can compete in the world market. There's a lot of subtleties here. There are-- >> Yeah, but Tesla does upgrade with software over the network. >> For an 80 to $100,000 price point and there's about four billion people that are going to buy cars in the next five years that may, or may not, be able to buy a 80,000 to $100,000 car. So anyway, coming back to your core point, I think what it really means is that if you're in a situation where you don't have visibility in a how, some of these new, digital approaches are going to create value for your business, you're doomed. So, I think the first thing you got to do is you got to be very explicit. This is how digital technology's going to create value for my business, that's number one. And, be able to articulate that to, virtually, anybody that's capable of understanding it, including Wall Street. But, to do that, you have to step back and say, and what is it about that digital technology that's going to create value for my business. And the thing that's going to do it, or not, is the data. >> And the asset configuration around, the work around the assets. >> Especially the asset configuration, as it's defined by the data. And, increasingly, there's an economics terms, what we're going to see happen over the next 10 years is the asset specificities are going to go down dramatically. In other words, the ability to which, or the degree to which an asset can only be configured to a specific purpose. Software's going to change that dynamic dramatically. And that, in many respects, is one of the fundamental, underlying things that's going on here. But, at the end of the day, you have to say, what role is data going to play in my business? How am I going to articulate that role by saying that I'm going to incorporate digital in this way? And then, put in place a plan that demonstrates that you're competent about some of these things. And, if your shareholders don't like it, they're not going to like it from anybody, not just you. >> Krish, I want to get your thoughts on the Cloud Native Compute Foundation. Why it's so successful. Why, in your opinion, do you think, there just booming with vendors, a lot of cash infusion, a lot of activity, projects went from one, three, 10. We had Dan on earlier, a lot of growth in the cloud native. And then, also, Kubernetes as a, kind of as an emerging, really interesting dynamic, vis-a-vis multicloud. So why cloud native is so popular and the impact of Kubernetes. >> Cloud native is popular because of late, developers are understanding that the role we are building applications is not going to work in cloud. When containers came into picture, that really made it easy for developers to develop cloud native apps. It got them to take advantage of the more distributed nature of the underlying infrastructure. So, the containers are the main reason why cloud native has become the household term, even in the enterprises. That could be one of the reason why Cloud Native Foundation is popular. Because they came at the right time to host all these development projects and evangelize with the developers and take steps in that. As far as Kubernetes is concerned, it worked at Google's CE. If it can work at Google's CE and then solve Google's problem, it should be able to help-- >> If it's good for Google, it's good for me. That's their strategy. >> And also, people are slowly realizing that as more and more enterprises go to cloud, they are realizing that going with a single cloud provider may not solve all their problems because different cloud providers have different set of services. So, they want to take advantage of all that. But, they want a single pane of glass to manage everything. Kubernetes is this general to be that at the cloud-- >> Krish, thanks for coming on. Peter, thanks for the comments, I'll just wrap up the analyst segment by saying, in my opinion, I think Cisco's making a good move here because, to your point about Google and Kubernetes is, and that's one of many examples of great software being contributed to open source. And open source, for all the times I've been involved with it since I was in college, is this more great software coming to the table now than ever before and that's creating great innovation. So, combined with the cloud and cloud native and Kubernetes, a perfect storm of innovation is coming. And it's coming, not from vendors, it's coming from open source. And, so the smart vendors are putting their toe in the water and really figuring it out. And again, the-- >> Peter: It is coming from vendor support though. >> Well the vendors are smart by putting their people in open source as a proxy for contribution. That's the open source model. That, to me, is the new R&D. It's a new innovation strategy, coupled with some proprietary R&D. Not saying they should be going all open source. >> I agree with it completely. In fact, I would even go one step further and say open source is completely disrupting the traditional enterprise software in modern business. Think about someone like Capital One putting critical software as open source and disrupting all the vendors in the space, so it's-- >> Well, let's continue the conversation in studio or tomorrow. Again, open source is horizontally scaling as well. Great stuff, great projects. More exclusive coverage from the inaugural event for Cisco's DevNet Create after this short break. (up-tempo music) >> Hi, I'm April Mitchell and I'm the senior director of strategy--