(bright upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to SiliconANGLE News breaking story here. Amazon Web Services expanding their relationship with Hugging Face, breaking news here on SiliconANGLE. I'm John Furrier, SiliconANGLE reporter, founder, and also co-host of theCUBE. And I have with me, Swami, from Amazon Web Services, vice president of database, analytics, machine learning with AWS. Swami, great to have you on for this breaking news segment on AWS's big news. Thanks for coming on and taking the time. >> Hey, John, pleasure to be here. >> You know- >> Looking forward to it. >> We've had many conversations on theCUBE over the years, we've watched Amazon really move fast into the large data modeling, SageMaker became a very smashing success, obviously you've been on this for a while. Now with ChatGPT OpenAI, a lot of buzz going mainstream, takes it from behind the curtain inside the ropes, if you will, in the industry to a mainstream. And so this is a big moment, I think, in the industry, I want to get your perspective, because your news with Hugging Face, I think is another tell sign that we're about to tip over into a new accelerated growth around making AI now application aware, application centric, more programmable, more API access. What's the big news about, with AWS Hugging Face, you know, what's going on with this announcement? >> Yeah. First of all, they're very excited to announce our expanded collaboration with Hugging Face, because with this partnership, our goal, as you all know, I mean, Hugging Face, I consider them like the GitHub for machine learning. And with this partnership, Hugging Face and AWS, we'll be able to democratize AI for a broad range of developers, not just specific deep AI startups. And now with this, we can accelerate the training, fine tuning and deployment of these large language models, and vision models from Hugging Face in the cloud. And the broader context, when you step back and see what customer problem we are trying to solve with this announcement, essentially if you see these foundational models, are used to now create like a huge number of applications, suggest like tech summarization, question answering, or search image generation, creative, other things. And these are all stuff we are seeing in the likes of these ChatGPT style applications. But there is a broad range of enterprise use cases that we don't even talk about. And it's because these kind of transformative, generative AI capabilities and models are not available to, I mean, millions of developers. And because either training these elements from scratch can be very expensive or time consuming and need deep expertise, or more importantly, they don't need these generic models, they need them to be fine tuned for the specific use cases. And one of the biggest complaints we hear is that these models, when they try to use it for real production use cases, they are incredibly expensive to train and incredibly expensive to run inference on, to use it at a production scale. So, and unlike web search style applications, where the margins can be really huge, here in production use cases and enterprises, you want efficiency at scale. That's where Hugging Face and AWS share our mission. And by integrating with Trainium and Inferentia, we're able to handle the cost efficient training and inference at scale, I'll deep dive on it. And by teaming up on the SageMaker front, now the time it takes to build these models and fine tune them is also coming down. So that's what makes this partnership very unique as well. So I'm very excited. >> I want to get into the time savings and the cost savings as well on the training and inference, it's a huge issue, but before we get into that, just how long have you guys been working with Hugging Face? I know there's a previous relationship, this is an expansion of that relationship, can you comment on what's different about what's happened before and then now? >> Yeah. So, Hugging Face, we have had a great relationship in the past few years as well, where they have actually made their models available to run on AWS, you know, fashion. Even in fact, their Bloom Project was something many of our customers even used. Bloom Project, for context, is their open source project which builds a GPT-3 style model. And now with this expanded collaboration, now Hugging Face selected AWS for that next generation office generative AI model, building on their highly successful Bloom Project as well. And the nice thing is, now, by direct integration with Trainium and Inferentia, where you get cost savings in a really significant way, now, for instance, Trn1 can provide up to 50% cost to train savings, and Inferentia can deliver up to 60% better costs, and four x more higher throughput than (indistinct). Now, these models, especially as they train that next generation generative AI models, it is going to be, not only more accessible to all the developers, who use it in open, so it'll be a lot cheaper as well. And that's what makes this moment really exciting, because we can't democratize AI unless we make it broadly accessible and cost efficient and easy to program and use as well. >> Yeah. >> So very exciting. >> I'll get into the SageMaker and CodeWhisperer angle in a second, but you hit on some good points there. One, accessibility, which is, I call the democratization, which is getting this in the hands of developers, and/or AI to develop, we'll get into that in a second. So, access to coding and Git reasoning is a whole nother wave. But the three things I know you've been working on, I want to put in the buckets here and comment, one, I know you've, over the years, been working on saving time to train, that's a big point, you mentioned some of those stats, also cost, 'cause now cost is an equation on, you know, bundling whether you're uncoupling with hardware and software, that's a big issue. Where do I find the GPUs? Where's the horsepower cost? And then also sustainability. You've mentioned that in the past, is there a sustainability angle here? Can you talk about those three things, time, cost, and sustainability? >> Certainly. So if you look at it from the AWS perspective, we have been supporting customers doing machine learning for the past years. Just for broader context, Amazon has been doing ML the past two decades right from the early days of ML powered recommendation to actually also supporting all kinds of generative AI applications. If you look at even generative AI application within Amazon, Amazon search, when you go search for a product and so forth, we have a team called MFi within Amazon search that helps bring these large language models into creating highly accurate search results. And these are created with models, really large models with tens of billions of parameters, scales to thousands of training jobs every month and trained on large model of hardware. And this is an example of a really good large language foundation model application running at production scale, and also, of course, Alexa, which uses a large generator model as well. And they actually even had a research paper that showed that they are more, and do better in accuracy than other systems like GPT-3 and whatnot. So, and we also touched on things like CodeWhisperer, which uses generative AI to improve developer productivity, but in a responsible manner, because 40% of some of the studies show 40% of this generated code had serious security flaws in it. This is where we didn't just do generative AI, we combined with automated reasoning capabilities, which is a very, very useful technique to identify these issues and couple them so that it produces highly secure code as well. Now, all these learnings taught us few things, and which is what you put in these three buckets. And yeah, like more than 100,000 customers using ML and AI services, including leading startups in the generative AI space, like stability AI, AI21 Labs, or Hugging Face, or even Alexa, for that matter. They care about, I put them in three dimension, one is around cost, which we touched on with Trainium and Inferentia, where we actually, the Trainium, you provide to 50% better cost savings, but the other aspect is, Trainium is a lot more power efficient as well compared to traditional one. And Inferentia is also better in terms of throughput, when it comes to what it is capable of. Like it is able to deliver up to three x higher compute performance and four x higher throughput, compared to it's previous generation, and it is extremely cost efficient and power efficient as well. >> Well. >> Now, the second element that really is important is in a day, developers deeply value the time it takes to build these models, and they don't want to build models from scratch. And this is where SageMaker, which is, even going to Kaggle uses, this is what it is, number one, enterprise ML platform. What it did to traditional machine learning, where tens of thousands of customers use StageMaker today, including the ones I mentioned, is that what used to take like months to build these models have dropped down to now a matter of days, if not less. Now, a generative AI, the cost of building these models, if you look at the landscape, the model parameter size had jumped by more than thousand X in the past three years, thousand x. And that means the training is like a really big distributed systems problem. How do you actually scale these model training? How do you actually ensure that you utilize these efficiently? Because these machines are very expensive, let alone they consume a lot of power. So, this is where SageMaker capability to build, automatically train, tune, and deploy models really concern this, especially with this distributor training infrastructure, and those are some of the reasons why some of the leading generative AI startups are actually leveraging it, because they do not want a giant infrastructure team, which is constantly tuning and fine tuning, and keeping these clusters alive. >> It sounds like a lot like what startups are doing with the cloud early days, no data center, you move to the cloud. So, this is the trend we're seeing, right? You guys are making it easier for developers with Hugging Face, I get that. I love that GitHub for machine learning, large language models are complex and expensive to build, but not anymore, you got Trainium and Inferentia, developers can get faster time to value, but then you got the transformers data sets, token libraries, all that optimized for generator. This is a perfect storm for startups. Jon Turow, a former AWS person, who used to work, I think for you, is now a VC at Madrona Venture, he and I were talking about the generator AI landscape, it's exploding with startups. Every alpha entrepreneur out there is seeing this as the next frontier, that's the 20 mile stairs, next 10 years is going to be huge. What is the big thing that's happened? 'Cause some people were saying, the founder of Yquem said, "Oh, the start ups won't be real, because they don't all have AI experience." John Markoff, former New York Times writer told me that, AI, there's so much work done, this is going to explode, accelerate really fast, because it's almost like it's been waiting for this moment. What's your reaction? >> I actually think there is going to be an explosion of startups, not because they need to be AI startups, but now finally AI is really accessible or going to be accessible, so that they can create remarkable applications, either for enterprises or for disrupting actually how customer service is being done or how creative tools are being built. And I mean, this is going to change in many ways. When we think about generative AI, we always like to think of how it generates like school homework or arts or music or whatnot, but when you look at it on the practical side, generative AI is being actually used across various industries. I'll give an example of like Autodesk. Autodesk is a customer who runs an AWS and SageMaker. They already have an offering that enables generated design, where designers can generate many structural designs for products, whereby you give a specific set of constraints and they actually can generate a structure accordingly. And we see similar kind of trend across various industries, where it can be around creative media editing or various others. I have the strong sense that literally, in the next few years, just like now, conventional machine learning is embedded in every application, every mobile app that we see, it is pervasive, and we don't even think twice about it, same way, like almost all apps are built on cloud. Generative AI is going to be part of every startup, and they are going to create remarkable experiences without needing actually, these deep generative AI scientists. But you won't get that until you actually make these models accessible. And I also don't think one model is going to rule the world, then you want these developers to have access to broad range of models. Just like, go back to the early days of deep learning. Everybody thought it is going to be one framework that will rule the world, and it has been changing, from Caffe to TensorFlow to PyTorch to various other things. And I have a suspicion, we had to enable developers where they are, so. >> You know, Dave Vellante and I have been riffing on this concept called super cloud, and a lot of people have co-opted to be multicloud, but we really were getting at this whole next layer on top of say, AWS. You guys are the most comprehensive cloud, you guys are a super cloud, and even Adam and I are talking about ISVs evolving to ecosystem partners. I mean, your top customers have ecosystems building on top of it. This feels like a whole nother AWS. How are you guys leveraging the history of AWS, which by the way, had the same trajectory, startups came in, they didn't want to provision a data center, the heavy lifting, all the things that have made Amazon successful culturally. And day one thinking is, provide the heavy lifting, undifferentiated heavy lifting, and make it faster for developers to program code. AI's got the same thing. How are you guys taking this to the next level, because now, this is an opportunity for the competition to change the game and take it over? This is, I'm sure, a conversation, you guys have a lot of things going on in AWS that makes you unique. What's the internal and external positioning around how you take it to the next level? >> I mean, so I agree with you that generative AI has a very, very strong potential in terms of what it can enable in terms of next generation application. But this is where Amazon's experience and expertise in putting these foundation models to work internally really has helped us quite a bit. If you look at it, like amazon.com search is like a very, very important application in terms of what is the customer impact on number of customers who use that application openly, and the amount of dollar impact it does for an organization. And we have been doing it silently for a while now. And the same thing is true for like Alexa too, which actually not only uses it for natural language understanding other city, even national leverages is set for creating stories and various other examples. And now, our approach to it from AWS is we actually look at it as in terms of the same three tiers like we did in machine learning, because when you look at generative AI, we genuinely see three sets of customers. One is, like really deep technical expert practitioner startups. These are the startups that are creating the next generation models like the likes of stability AIs or Hugging Face with Bloom or AI21. And they generally want to build their own models, and they want the best price performance of their infrastructure for training and inference. That's where our investments in silicon and hardware and networking innovations, where Trainium and Inferentia really plays a big role. And we can nearly do that, and that is one. The second middle tier is where I do think developers don't want to spend time building their own models, let alone, they actually want the model to be useful to that data. They don't need their models to create like high school homeworks or various other things. What they generally want is, hey, I had this data from my enterprises that I want to fine tune and make it really work only for this, and make it work remarkable, can be for tech summarization, to generate a report, or it can be for better Q&A, and so forth. This is where we are. Our investments in the middle tier with SageMaker, and our partnership with Hugging Face and AI21 and co here are all going to very meaningful. And you'll see us investing, I mean, you already talked about CodeWhisperer, which is an open preview, but we are also partnering with a whole lot of top ISVs, and you'll see more on this front to enable the next wave of generated AI apps too, because this is an area where we do think lot of innovation is yet to be done. It's like day one for us in this space, and we want to enable that huge ecosystem to flourish. >> You know, one of the things Dave Vellante and I were talking about in our first podcast we just did on Friday, we're going to do weekly, is we highlighted the AI ChatGPT example as a horizontal use case, because everyone loves it, people are using it in all their different verticals, and horizontal scalable cloud plays perfectly into it. So I have to ask you, as you look at what AWS is going to bring to the table, a lot's changed over the past 13 years with AWS, a lot more services are available, how should someone rebuild or re-platform and refactor their application of business with AI, with AWS? What are some of the tools that you see and recommend? Is it Serverless, is it SageMaker, CodeWhisperer? What do you think's going to shine brightly within the AWS stack, if you will, or service list, that's going to be part of this? As you mentioned, CodeWhisperer and SageMaker, what else should people be looking at as they start tinkering and getting all these benefits, and scale up their ups? >> You know, if we were a startup, first, I would really work backwards from the customer problem I try to solve, and pick and choose, bar, I don't need to deal with the undifferentiated heavy lifting, so. And that's where the answer is going to change. If you look at it then, the answer is not going to be like a one size fits all, so you need a very strong, I mean, granted on the compute front, if you can actually completely accurate it, so unless, I will always recommend it, instead of running compute for running your ups, because it takes care of all the undifferentiated heavy lifting, but on the data, and that's where we provide a whole variety of databases, right from like relational data, or non-relational, or dynamo, and so forth. And of course, we also have a deep analytical stack, where data directly flows from our relational databases into data lakes and data virus. And you can get value along with partnership with various analytical providers. The area where I do think fundamentally things are changing on what people can do is like, with CodeWhisperer, I was literally trying to actually program a code on sending a message through Twilio, and I was going to pull up to read a documentation, and in my ID, I was actually saying like, let's try sending a message to Twilio, or let's actually update a Route 53 error code. All I had to do was type in just a comment, and it actually started generating the sub-routine. And it is going to be a huge time saver, if I were a developer. And the goal is for us not to actually do it just for AWS developers, and not to just generate the code, but make sure the code is actually highly secure and follows the best practices. So, it's not always about machine learning, it's augmenting with automated reasoning as well. And generative AI is going to be changing, and not just in how people write code, but also how it actually gets built and used as well. You'll see a lot more stuff coming on this front. >> Swami, thank you for your time. I know you're super busy. Thank you for sharing on the news and giving commentary. Again, I think this is a AWS moment and industry moment, heavy lifting, accelerated value, agility. AIOps is going to be probably redefined here. Thanks for sharing your commentary. And we'll see you next time, I'm looking forward to doing more follow up on this. It's going to be a big wave. Thanks. >> Okay. Thanks again, John, always a pleasure. >> Okay. This is SiliconANGLE's breaking news commentary. I'm John Furrier with SiliconANGLE News, as well as host of theCUBE. Swami, who's a leader in AWS, has been on theCUBE multiple times. We've been tracking the growth of how Amazon's journey has just been exploding past five years, in particular, past three. You heard the numbers, great performance, great reviews. This is a watershed moment, I think, for the industry, and it's going to be a lot of fun for the next 10 years. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and ETR this is breaking analysis with Dave vellante over the past decade cloudflare has built a Global Network that has the potential to become the fourth us-based hyperscale class cloud in our view the company is building a durable Revenue model with hooks into many important markets these include the more mature DDOS protection space to other growth sectors such as zero trust a serverless platform for application development and an increasing number of services such as database and object storage and other network services in essence cloudflare could be thought of as a giant distributed supercomputer that can connect multiple clouds and act as a highly efficient scheduling engine at scale its disruptive DNA is increasingly attracting novel startups and established Global firms alike looking for Reliable secure high performance low latency and more cost-effective alternatives to AWS and Legacy infrastructure Solutions hello and welcome to this week's wikibon Cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis we initiate our deeper coverage of cloudflare we'll briefly explain our take on the company and its unique business model we'll then share some peer comparisons with both the financial snapshot and some fresh ETR survey data finally we'll share some examples of how we think cloudflare could be a disruptive force with a super cloud-like offering that in many respects is what multi-cloud should have been cloudflare has been on our peripheral radar Ben Thompson and many others have written about their disruptive business model and recently a breaking analysis follower who will remain anonymous emailed with some excellent insights on cloudflare that prompted us to initiate more detailed coverage let's first take a look at how cloudflare seize the world in terms of its view of a modern stack this is a graphic from cloudflare that shows a simple three-layer Stack comprising Storage and compute the lower level and application layer and the network and their key message is basically that the big four hyperscalers have replaced the on-prem leaders apps have been satisfied and that mess of network that you see and Security in the upper left can now be handled all by cloudflare and the stack can be rented via Opex versus requiring heavy capex investment so okay somewhat of a simplified view is those companies on the the left are you know not standing still and we're going to come back to that but cloudflare has done something quite amazing I mean it's been a while since we've invoked Russ hanneman of Silicon Valley Fame on breaking analysis but remember when he was in a meeting one of his first meetings if not the first with Richard Hendricks it was the whiz kid on the show Silicon Valley and hanneman said something like if you had a blank check and you could build anything in the world what would it be and Richard's answer was basically a new internet and that led to Pied Piper this peer-to-peer Network powered by decentralized devices and and iPhones and this amazing compression algorithm that enabled high-speed data movement and low latency uh up to no low latency access across the network well in a way that's what cloudflare has built its founding premise reimagined how the internet should be built with a consistent set of server infrastructure where each server had lots of cores lots of dram lots of cash fast ssds and plenty of network connectivity and bandwidth and well this picture makes it look like a bunch of dots and points of presence on a map which of course it is there's a software layer that enables cloudflare to efficiently allocate resources across this Global Network the company claims that it's Network utilization is in the 70 percent range and it has used its build out to enter the technology space from the bottoms up offering for example free tiers of services to users with multiple entry points on different services and selling then more services over time to a customer which of course drives up its average contract value and its lifetime value at the same time the company continues to innovate and add new services at a very rapid cloud-like Pace you can think of cloudflare's initial Market entry as like a lightweight Cisco as a service the company's CFO actually he uses that term he calls it that which really must tick off Cisco who of course has a massive portfolio and a dominant Market position now because it owns the network cloudflare is a marginal cost of adding new Services is very small and goes towards zero so it's able to get software like economics at scale despite all this infrastructure that's building out so it doesn't have to constantly face the increasing infrastructure tax snowflake for example doesn't own its own network infrastructure as it grows it relies on AWS or Azure gcp and and while it gives the company obvious advantages it doesn't have to build out its own network it also requires them to constantly pay the tax and negotiate with hyperscalers for better rental rates now as previously mentioned Cloud Fair cloudflare claims that its utilization is very high probably higher than the hyperscalers who can spin up servers that they can charge for underutilized customer capacity cloudflare also has excellent Network traffic data that it can use to its Advantage with its Analytics the company has been rapidly innovating Beyond its original Core Business adding as I said before serverless zero trust offerings it has announced a database it calls its database D1 that's pretty creative and it's announced an object store called R2 that is S3 minus one both from the alphabet and the numeric I.E minus the egress cost saying no egress cost that's their big claim to fame and they've made a lot of marketing noise around about that and of course they've promised in our a D2 database which of course is R2D2 RR they've launched a developer platform cloudflare can be thought of kind of like first of all a modern CDN they've got a simpler security model that's how they compete for example with z-scaler that brings uh they also bring VPN sd-wan and DDOS protection services that are that are part of the network and they're less expensive than AWS that's kind of their sort of go to market and messaging and value proposition and they're positioning themselves as a neutral Network that can connect across multiple clouds now to be clear unlike AWS in particular cloudflare is not well suited to lift and shift your traditional apps like for instance sap Hana you're not going to run that in on cloudflare's platform rather the company started by making websites more secure and faster and it flew under the radar and much in the same way that clay Christensen described the disruption in the steel industry if you've seen that where new entrants picked off the low margin rebar business then moved up the stack we've used that analogy in the semiconductor business with arm and and even China cloudflare is running a similar playbook in the cloud and in the network so in the early part of the last decade as aws's ascendancy was becoming more clear many of us started thinking about how and where firms could compete and add value as AWS is becoming so dominant so for instance take an industry Focus you could do things like data sharing with snowflake eventually you know uh popularized you could build on top of clouds again snowflake is doing that as are others you could build private clouds and of course connect to hybrid clouds but not many had the wherewithal and or the hutzpah to build out a Global Network that could serve as a connecting platform for cloud services cloudflare has traction in the market as it adds new services like zero trust and object store or database its Tam continues to grow here's a quick snapshot of cloudflare's financials relative to Z scalar which is both a competitor and a customer fastly which is a smaller CDN and Akamai a more mature CDN slash Edge platform cloudflare and fastly both reported earnings this past week Cloud Fair Cloud flare surpassed a billion dollar Revenue run rate but they gave tepid guidance and the stock got absolutely crushed today which is Friday but the company's business model is sound it's growing close to 50 annually it has sas-like gross margins in the mid to high 70s and it's it it's got a very strong balance sheet and a 13x revenue run rate multiple in fact it's Financial snapshot is quite close to that of z-scaler which is kind of interesting which zinc sailor of course doesn't own its own network that's a pure play software company fastly is much smaller and growing more slowly than cloudflare hence its lower multiple well Akamai as you can see is a more mature company but it's got a nice business now on its earnings call this week cloudflare announced that its head of sales was stepping down and the company has brought in a new leader to take the firm to five billion dollars in sales I think actually its current sales leader felt like hey you know my work is done here bring on somebody else to take it to the next level the company is promising to be free cash flow positive by the end of the year and is working hard toward its long-term financial model or so working towards sorry it's a long-term financial model with gross margin Targets in the mid 70s it's targeting 20 non-gaap operating margins so so solid you know very solid not like completely off the charts but you know very good and to our knowledge it has not committed to a long-term growth rate but at that sort of operating profit level you would like to see growth be consistently at least in the 20 range so they could at least be a rule of 40 company or perhaps even even five even higher if they're going to continue to command a premium valuation okay let's take a look at the ETR data ETR is very positive on cloudflare and has recently published a report on the company like many companies cloudflare is seeing an across the board slowdown in spending velocity we've reported on this quite extensively using the ETR data to quantify the degree to that Slowdown and on the data set with ETR we see that many customers they're shifting their spend to Flat spend you know plus or minus let's say you know single digits you know two three percent or even zero or in the market we're seeing a shift from paid to free tiers remember cloudflare offers a lot of free services as you're seeing customers maybe turn off the pay for a while and going with the freebie but we're also seeing some larger customers in the data and the fortune 1000 specifically they're actually spending more which was confirmed on cloudflare's earnings call they did say everything across the board was softer but they did also indicate that some of their larger customers are actually growing faster than their smaller customers and their churn is very very low here's a two-dimensional graphic we'd like to share this view a lot it's got Net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and overlap or pervasiveness in the survey on the horizontal axis and this cut isolates three segments in the etrs taxonomy that cloudflare plays in Cloud security and networking now the table inserted in that upper left there shows the raw data which informs the position of each company in the dots with Net score in the ends listed in that rightmost column the red dotted line indicates a highly elevated Net score and finally we posted the breakdown those colors in the bottom right of cloudflare's Net score the lime green that's new adoptions the forest green is we're spending more six percent or more the gray is flat plus or minus uh five percent and you can see that the majority of customers you can see that's the majority of the customers that gray area the pink is we're spending Less in other words down six percent or worse and the bright red is churn which is minimal one percent very good indicator for for cloudflare what you do to get etr's proprietary Net score and they've done this for many many quarters so we have that time series data you subtract the Reds from the greens and that's Net score cloudflare is at 39 just under that magic red line now note that cloudflare and zscaler are right on top of each other Cisco has a dominant position on the x-axis that cloudflare and others are eyeing AWS is also dominant but note that its Net score is well above the red dotted line it's incredible Palo Alto networks is also very impressive it's got both a strong presence on the horizontal axis and it's got a Net score that's pretty comparable to cloudflare and z-scaler to much smaller companies Akamai is actually well positioned for a reasonably mature company and you can see fastly ATT Juniper and F5 have far less spending momentum on their platforms than does cloudflare but at least they are in positive Net score territory so what's going to be really interesting to see is whether cloudflare can continue to hold this momentum or even accelerate it as we've seen with some other clouds as it scales its Network and keeps adding more and more services cloudflare has a couple of potential strategic vectors that we want to talk about and it'll be going to be interesting to see how that plays out Now One path is to compete more directly as a Cloud Player offering secure access Edge services like firewall as a service and zero Trust Services like data loss prevention email security from its area one acquisition and other zero trust offerings as well as Network Services like routing and network connectivity this is The Sweet Spot of the company load balancing many others and then add in things like Object Store and database Services more Edge services in the future it might be telecom like services such as Network switching for offices so that's one route and cloudflare is clearly on that path more services more cohorts at innovating and and growing the company and bringing in more Revenue increasing acvs and and increasing long-term value and keeping retention high now the other Vector is what we're just going to refer to as super cloud as an enabler of cross-cloud infrastructure this is new value uh relative to the former Vector that we were just talking about now the title of this episode is what multi-cloud should have been meaning cloudflare could be the control plane providing a consistent experience across clouds one that is fast and secure at global scale now to give you Insight on this let's take a look at some of the comments made by Matthew Prince the CEO and co-founder of cloudflare cloudflare put its R2 Object Store into public beta this past May and I believe it's storing around a petabyte of data today I think that's what they said in their call here's what Prince said about that quote we are talking to very large companies about moving more and more of their stored objects to where we can store that with R2 and one of the benefits is not only can we help them save money on the egress fees but it allows them to then use those object stores or objects across any of the different Cloud platforms they're that they're using so by being that neutral third party we can let people adopt a little bit of Amazon a little bit of Microsoft a little bit of Google a little bit of SAS vendors and share that data across all those different places so what's interesting about this in the super cloud context is it suggests that customers could take the best of each Cloud to power their digital businesses I might like AWS for in redshift for my analytic database or I love Google's machine learning Microsoft's collaboration and I'd like a consistent way to connect those resources but of course he's strongly hinting and has made many public statements that aws's egress fees are a blocker to that vision now at a recent investor event Matthew Prince added some color to this concept when he talked about one metric of success being how much R2 capacity was consumed and how much they sold but perhaps a more interesting Benchmark is highlighted by the following statement that he made he said a completely different measure of success for R2 is Andy jassy says I'm sick and tired of these guys meaning cloudflare taking our objects away we're dropping our egress fees to zero I would be so excited because we've then unlocked the ability to be the network that interconnects the cloud together now of course it would be Adam solipski who would be saying that or maybe Andy Jesse you know still watching over AWS and I think it's highly unlikely that that's going to happen anytime soon and that of course but but in theory gets us closer to the super cloud value proposition and to further drive that point home and we're paraphrasing a little bit his comments here he said something the effect of quote customers need one consistent control plane across clouds and we are the neutral Network that can be consistent no matter which Cloud you're using interesting right that Prince sees the world that's similar to if not nearly identical to the concepts that the cube Community has been putting forth around supercloud now this vision is a ways off let's be real Prince even suggested that his initial vision of an application running across multiple clouds you know that's like super cloud Nirvana isn't what customers are doing today that's that's really hard to do and perhaps you know it's never going to happen but there's a little doubt that cloudflare could be and is positioning itself as that cross-cloud control plane it has the network economics and the business model levers to pull it's got an edge up on the competition at the edge pun intended cloudflare is the definition of Edge and it's distributed platform it's decentralized platform is much better suited for Edge workloads than these giant data centers that are you know set up to to try and handle that today the the hyperscalers are building out you know their Edge networks things like outposts you know going out to the edge and other local zones Etc now cloudflare is increasingly competitive to the hyperscalers and those traditional Stacks that it depositioned on an earlier slide that we showed but you know the likes of AWS and Dell and hpe and Cisco and those others they're not sitting in their hands they have a huge huge customer install bases and they are definitely a moving Target they're investing and they're building out their own Super clouds with really robust stacks as well let's face it it's going to take a decade or more for Enterprises to adopt a developer platform or a new database Cloud plus cloudflare's capabilities when compared to incumbent stacks and the hyperscalers is much less robust in these areas and even in storage you know despite all the great conversation that R2 generated and the buzz you take a specialist like Wasabi they're more mature they're more functional and they're way cheaper even than cloudflare so you know it's not a fake a complete that cloudflare is going to win in those markets but we love the disruption and if cloudflare wants to be the fourth us-based hyperscaler or join the the big four as the as the fifth if we put Alibaba in the mix it's got a lot of work to do in the ecosystem by its own admission as much to learn and is part of the value by the way that it sees in its area one acquisition it's email security company that it bought but even in that case much of the emphasis has been on reseller channels compare that to the AWS ecosystem which is not only a channel play but is as much an innovation flywheel filling gaps where companies like snowflake Thrive side by side with aws's data stores as well all the on-prem stacks are building hybrid connections to AWS and other clouds as a means of providing consistent experiences across clouds indeed many of them see what they call cross-cloud services or what we call super cloud hyper cloud or whatever you know Mega Cloud you want to call it we use super cloud they are really eyeing that opportunity so very few companies frankly are not going after that space but we're going to close with this cloudflare is one of those companies that's in a position to wake up each morning and ask who can we disrupt today and very few companies are in a position to disrupt the hyperscalers to the degree that cloudflare is and that my friends is going to be fascinating to watch unfold all right let's call it a wrap I want to thank Alex Meyerson who's on production and manages the podcast as well as Ken schiffman who's our newest addition to the Boston Studio Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help us get the word out on social media and in our newsletters and Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at silicon angle thank you to all remember all these episodes are available as podcasts wherever you listen all you're going to do is search breaking analysis podcasts I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com you can email me at david.velante at siliconangle.com or DM me at divalante if you comment on my LinkedIn posts and please do check out etr.ai they got the best survey data in the Enterprise Tech business this is Dave vellante for the cube insights powered by ETR thank you very much for watching and we'll see you next time on breaking analysis

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back, everyone, to theCUBE's coverage of VMware Explore 2022, formerly Vmworld. We've been covering this event since 2010. I'm with Dave Nicholson, my cohost. We've got two sets here, live for three days, breaking down all the action, what's going on in the news, what announcements, what are the partners doing, you got the VMware execs, you got the customers, and you got the partner ecosystem, which is booming. We got Darren Wolner, Senior Director of Product Management at Lumen, SASE and SD-WAN, in the midst of it all. The internet is SD-WAN, this is all rocking. Welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Hey. Thanks for having me, guys. I really appreciate being here. >> Well, we know the name change LUMEN from CenturyLink. You guys have been on many times on theCUBE talking about, you know, the connective tissue. You got infrastructure, platform, now SASE. Cloud's changing. We're calling it supercloud. Some people call it multicloud. But the game is still the same. You got an on-premise environment, you got edge, could be a building. And you got now cloud-native hyperscale, cloud players, now all connecting, kind of like the old branch office days, connect here. So a lot of the same kind of concepts, but done differently. Give us the quick update from Lumen. What are you guys seeing? What are some of the big trends? >> So the quick update from Lumen is that we just launched a new service called SASE that we're extremely excited about. And this new service from Lumen takes advantage of a lot of the infrastructure that you just mentioned. So we're able to take advantage of our cloud edge 60 plus nodes to help customers move their applications closer to where they're doing business. Major performance boosts. So even though all these customers want to move the workloads to the cloud to improve their efficiency, improve their performance, we are acting quickly to make sure that that experience is a positive one. So as things are evolving and changing, so is Lumen, Aad we're pushing towards that evolution to technology. >> Take a minute to explain, just kind of set the table to the situation of how you guys relate to your customers. You mentioned SASE, which is a service I want to get into. Okay, got connectivity. What are some of the use cases? Where does SASE fit in? What is the use case with the customers? Where are you seeing the most traction? >> And you need to define SASE. It's always a party foul to use an acronym without defining it immediately after the first time you used it, so. >> Okay, so I have to recover from that foul. So, absolutely. So SASE, we view SASE as a convergence of network and security. And what we're doing with SASE is that we're delivering this package of services that are cloud based, that customers can pick and choose whichever ones they want. And that's Secure Access Service Edge. And that is what we're very excited to talk about. >> I mean, basically it's connectivity, it's application security, it's edge. So it's end-to-end. So we all get the acronym. Nice play there. But when reality comes to the customer, what is the use case that you guys are seeing the most on? Lift and shift I get. Is it lift and shift and then cloud native to on-prem? What is some of the things specifically that you guys are selling into? >> Specifically what we're seeing is we're seeing that customers, they want to evolve their networks and move to cloud environments, but not everybody's ready to do it all at the same time. That's part of the reason why SASE has become so popular right now. Because we're enabling customers to pick and choose the order in which they want to move to cloud enabled services, and we're allowing them to choose one or choose them all. And from a use case perspective, as we've just gone through COVID, and everybody knows work from home has become extremely important way of doing business, and that we want to give that flexibility. >> No one would've forecasted 100% work-from-home, VPN, move it under provisioned. (men laughing) So again, shock to the system. >> It is, it is, it is. It was, but with a solution like this, we're able to provide our customers with flexibility to run their businesses any way they want. They to be premise-based, we can support them. They want to be remote, we can support them. That is a huge use case right now. >> I mean, all joking aside, the forcing function, necessity's the mother of invention, and the pandemic really kind of changed the game. How do you guys see security evolving? Because as you look at the security, you got FourNet out there. I know you guys have a relationship with them. You got VMware. There's a lot of different tools and platforms emerging. We hear every CSO we talk to is like, hey, I want to take my 35 tools down to 24, and more platforms, and much more defensibility, not just point security. How do you discuss that with customers around the security conversation? >> So we're finding that our customers want a little bit more simplicity. You had mentioned that they want to bring down their numbers to something that's a little bit more manageable. With the service that we've just launched, we have single vendor solutions, and we're looking to simplify that path for the customer. And it's about simplicity, but it's also about optionality. We want to make sure that we can say yes to our customers. And whatever path that they want to go to, from a software perspective, we're able to support them. And the flexibility of our platform allows that to happen. >> You know, networking, Dave, we always talk about the three major pillars: networking, compute, storage. They never go away. >> No. >> They'll always be around. Networking is now front and center, especially with the abstractions going on. You're starting to see supercloud discussions. You see companies buying more cloud native, like with AWS, to take that CapEx off, but now are putting all that energy into modern application development. Which now puts pressure on, okay, well about network policies? So networking is into the fold again. It's always been there, it never left, but it's becoming different. How do you see the different conversations happening with the network component, with cloud native trend that we're seeing here? >> Well, I think the network component is really table stakes. And what's happening is, as everybody is interested in moving to the cloud, services are becoming instant, right? Digitized. But you have the network that customers are still looking for that level of support from a company like Lumen, and they know that we have a vast infrastructure. So the network conversation doesn't go away. It just evolves. What's happening is customers want to understand how they can better secure those networks. And then what's also happening is people want to use any device, anywhere, anytime. So the conversation about the network is important, but when you think about security, it's starting to move away from the network. It already has. >> There's no more perimeter. >> Exactly. So we need to be able to secure our customers wherever they are, however they want to use their devices. And for us, that path was SASE. >> So go into a little more depth in terms of how this is deployed. What is this thing that is SASE? >> Absolutely. >> Is this software living on the edge on people's servers? Does it include some sort of physical components and wizardry? >> Well... (laughs) >> Peel back-- >> Is it self-service? Is it installable? Does it need professional services? >> So, there is a little bit of wizardry. And what we put together is really an awesome digital platform where customers have the ability to go into the Lumen marketplace, and in five simple steps, purchase a SASE solution based on a few discreet choices that they need to make. And once they've provisioned that, once they've purchased that service, now they have those entitlements. We've created an all new application from the ground up called the Lumen SASE Manager where they're able to go in, take their entitlements, design, build, manage their network. So the customer can go through this journey, and it's relatively quick. And they have tons of flexibility to do that. However, if a customer prefers a seller-led journey, we're still going to help them do that as well. So really the spirit of SASE for us was to give ultimate flexibility to the customer. Consume exactly what you want, consume it the way you want to, but the simplicity factor with our digital approach I think is something that we feel is pretty game changing. >> So when one of those customers, let's say you have a campaign, thank you SASE. What are those customers thanking you for? Give me an example of what a delighted customer would point to as, "I'm really glad we made the decision to do this with Lumen." Why would they be happy? >> Why would they be happy? Because the advantage of doing this with Lumen is not only that simplified digital approach, but we're selling them essentially a cookie, right? And that cookie has two layers, and it has cream filling. And what's going on is-- >> Tastes great. >> Definitely, definitely. But everybody has different tastes, and we'll get to that in a second. But the top layer is the infrastructure that Lumen provides. And we have a vast infrastructure, 450,000 route miles of fiber, 60 plus cloud edge nodes to bring compute closer to the customer. So that's a very important layer that we're providing. And then the other layer of the cookie is the management. Different customers have different needs. Not every business looks alike. So you're going to have some businesses who have invested in their security apparatus, and they may not need enough as much help from us. So we're offering customers different levels of managed service wrapper so they can buy exactly what they need, no more, no less. So let's get to the cream filling. Everybody likes the cream filling, but not everybody likes the same kind. Every time you go down the supermarket aisle and you look at your favorite cream cookie, there's different types of flavors that are introduced from time to time. So what we want to do is to be able to say yes to our customers and give them as much variety as the cream flavors as possible. And that's where the software comes in. If you have dedicated a lot of expertise to a certain platform, we want to be able to support that software platform. And I think the flexibility of the Lumen platform and the flexibility of Lumen SASE solutions allows us to give that flexibility back. >> So you putting that wizardry at the edge, so the customer's environment, whatever they have flexes with the connectivity? >> It does, yes. >> That's what you're getting at. I mean, at the end of the day, we need the network. Everybody wants more bandwidth. >> Its not going away. >> Faster, faster, faster. >> That's right. >> We need more bandwidth. >> That's right. >> But it could be smarter. But that also implements some potential overhead. So you got to understand the end to end. That's where I think the SD-WAN interesting tie-in comes in. How do you talk to customers about that piece? Is it simply you can have your cake and eat it too, and you lose weight with Lumen? I stole that line from Victoria from VMware. I want my cake and eat it too, and I want to lose weight. >> I mean, wouldn't that be a wonderful world if we could do that? Have our cake and lose weight. >> I want to make sure. Yeah. >> But when it comes to SD-WAN, especially under our SASE umbrella, what we're looking to do is go down the road of simplicity and try to work out the amount of compute that a customer needs, and the amount of storage, I'm sorry, not storage, the amount of throughput that a customer needs. And we're getting these customers to make these decisions. They know what they have. They know what they want to run. We will consult with them. Whether they go through our digital experience, whether they go through our seller-led experience, there's always off ramps and a way to talk to a human being and make choices. So we're giving the customer enough information to make an informed decision, and we're here to support them if they need more. >> So you're customer-centric. You guys are good there. I mean, that's solid. Great track record there. I guess my final two questions are: one, how do I consume? I'm the customer. How do I consume? And what's on the roadmap going forward? I mean, look at the project management. You got the keys to the kingdom on the roadmap. And you can share if you want, but maybe you can't share some things. But what's the consumption model? Where do I find it? Is it the marketplace? Is it through channel partners and service providers? And then what's on the roadmap? >> Sure, absolutely. So you can consume this on dotcom through the Lumen marketplace. You could interact with the learn and the buy experience. And then once you've gone through that experience, you're going to consume it through the SASE manager. That's how you're going to use and interact with the service. That's how you're going to consume it. And then you're going to continue to utilize the SASE manager for reporting, access to portals, so forth and so on. You need to make a change to your service, not a problem. It's simple. You go back into the SASE manager, you add more seats to your ZTNA solution. You want to add another site, you go back into the SASE manager, you could purchase another site. We'll take care of all of it. Everything is automated. >> If you're a VMware customer, what's in it for them? >> This is great for VMware. It's the automation of the complete security stack. It's the automation of the SD-WAN portion. And we think that this total package is something that's going to be very appealing to VMware fans, VMware customers, and most importantly, when a VMware customer comes to us and says, "I have a ton of experience with VMware, and I don't want to move away from it, but I can really use the management and the infrastructure that you guys have," I'm able to say yes. >> And then you got the Aria coming out, now you got the cross-cloud, going to be very interesting. Okay, what's on the roadmap? Tell us what's the secret sauce. Reveal some secrets. >> Reveal some secrets. I dunno, there's a lot of people watching. >> They're shaking their head over there, "Don't say it! Don't say it!" (laughs) >> We have a lot of exciting things on the roadmap. I will tell you this because I think it's very important. The way we are developing services today has shifted. No longer can companies afford to roll out one product a year and wait. It takes you a year to roll that product out, and it's stale by the time it comes out, and then it takes you another year to fix it. We have moved to continuous development cycles. We are keeping track of what's going on in the market, what the hot trends are, what the hot services are, and as SASE continues to evolve, we will be able to quickly evolve. So while we do have some ideas of where we want to go on the roadmap, and I'm sure they're shaking their heads over there, what I love is we now have the ability to listen to what our customers want and act quickly. >> I call it the holy trinity. Network storage, compute, get that software intelligence at the edge which is going to be really popular. You guys are in a really perfect position. Thanks for coming on, sharing on theCUBE. >> Thank you so much, thank you. >> Okay, Darren's here on theCUBE breaking it down for Lumen, formerly CenturyLink, rebranded a few years ago. Connectivity is the key. You still got to connect, network, compute, storage, and you got the data center now, the cloud hybrid, now multicloud. This is the super CUBE, covering supercloud here at VMware Explore 2022. We'll be right back after this short break. (upbeat music)

[Music] thecube's coverage of red hat summit 2022 thecube has been covering red hat summit for a number of years of course the last two years were virtual coverage now the red hat summit is one of the industry's most premier events and and typically red hat summits are many thousands of people i think the last one i went to was eight or nine thousand people very heavy developer conference this year red hat has taken a different approach it's a hybrid event it's kind of a vip event at the westin in boston with a lot more executives here than we would normally expect versus developers but a huge virtual audience my name is dave vellante i'm here with my co-host paul gillin paul this is a location that you and i have broadcast from many times and um of course 2019 the summer of 2019 ibm acquired red hat and um we of course we did red hat summit that year but now we're seeing a completely new red hat and a new ibm and you wouldn't know ibm owned red hat for what they've been talking about at this conference we just came out of the keynote where uh in the in the hour-long keynote ibm was not mentioned once and only appeared the logo only appeared once on the screen in fact so this is uh very much red hat being red hat not being a subsidiary at ibm and perhaps that's justified given that ibm's track record with acquisitions is that they gradually envelop the acquired company and and it becomes part of the ibm board yeah they blue wash the whole thing right it's ironic because ibm think is going on right across the street arvin krishna is here but no presence here and i think that's by design i mean it reminds me of when you know emc owned vmware you know the vmware team didn't want to publicize that they had an ecosystem of partners that they wanted to cater to and they wanted to treat everybody equally even though perhaps behind the scenes they were forced to do certain things that they might not have necessarily wanted to because they were owned by another company and i think that you know certainly ibm's done a good job of leaving the brand separate but when they talk about the con the conference calls ibm's earnings calls you certainly get a heavy dose of red hat when red hat was acquired by ibm it was just north of three billion dollars in revenue obviously ibm paid 34 billion dollars for the company actually by today's valuations probably a bargain you know despite the market sell-off in the last several months uh but now we've heard public statements from arvind kushner that that red hat is a 5 billion plus revenue company it's a little unclear what's in there of course when you listen to ibm earnings you know consulting is their big business red hat's growing at 21 but when i remember paul when red hat was acquired stu miniman and i did a session and i said this is not about cloud this is about consulting and modernizing applications and sure there's some cloud in there with openshift but from a financial standpoint ibm was able to take red hat and jam it right into its application modernization initiatives so it's hard to tell how much of that 5 billion is actually you know legacy red hat but i guess it doesn't matter anymore it's working ibm mathematics is notoriously opaque they if the business isn't going well it'll tend to be absorbed into another number in the in the earnings report that that does show some growth so we've heard uh certainly ibm talks a lot about red hat on its earnings calls it's very clear that red hat is the growth engine within ibm i'd say it's a bit of the tail wagging the dog right now where red hat really is dictating where ibm goes with its hypercloud strategy which is the foundation not only of its technology portfolio but of its consulting business and so red hat is really in the driver's seat of of hybrid cloud and that's the future for ibm and you see that very much at this conference where uh red hat is putting out its uh series of announcements today about improvements to his hybrid cloud the new release of route 9 red hat enterprise linux 9 improvements to its hybrid cloud portfolio it very much is going its own way with that and i sense that ibm is going to go along with wherever red hat chooses to go yeah i think you're absolutely right if by the way if you go to siliconangle.com paul just published a piece on red hat reds hats their roll out of their parade which of course is as you pointed out led by enterprise linux but to your point about hybrid cloud it is the linchpin of of certainly ibm strategy but many companies hybrid cloud strategies if you think about it openshift in particular it's it's the modern application development environment for kubernetes you can get kubernetes you can buy eks you can get that for free in a lot of places but you have to do dozens and dozens of things and acquire dozens of services to do what openshift does to get the reliability the recoverability the security and that's really red hat's play and they're the the thing about red hat combining with linux their linux heritage they're doing that everywhere it's going to open shift everywhere red hat everywhere whether it's on-prem in aws azure google out to the edge you heard paul cormier today saying he expects that in the next several years hardware is going to become one of the most important you know factors i agree i think we're going to enter a hardware renaissance you've seen the work that we've done on arm i think 2017 was when red hat and arm announced kind of their initial collaboration could have even been before that today we're hearing a lot about intel and nvidia and so affinity with all of these alternative processes i think they did throw in today in the keynote power and so i think i heard that that was the other ibm branding they sort of tucked that in there but the point is red hat runs everywhere so it's fundamental to building out hybrid cloud and that is fundamental to a lot of company strategies and red hat has been all over kubernetes with openshift it's i mean it's a drum beat here uh the openshift strategy is what really makes hybrid cloud possible because kubernetes is what makes it possible to shift workloads seamlessly from platform to platform you make an interesting point about hardware we have seen kind of a renaissance in hardware these last couple of years as these specific chipsets and uh and even full-scale processors have come to market we're seeing several in the ai area right now where startups are developing full-blown chipsets and and systems uh just for ai processing and nvidia of course that's that's really kind of their stock and trade these days so uh a a company that can run across all of those different platforms a platform like like rel which can run all across those different platforms is going to have a leg up on on anybody else and the implications for application development are considerable when you when you think about we talk about a lot about these alternative processes when flash replaced the spinning disk that had a huge impact on how applications are developed developers now didn't have to wait for that that disc to spin even though it's spinning very fast it's mechanical compared to electrons forget it and and the second big piece here is how memory is actually utilized the x86 you know traditional x86 you know memory everything goes through that core processor intel for years grabbed more and more function and you're seeing now that function become dispersed in fact a lot of people think we're moving from a processor-centric world to a connect centric world meaning connecting all these piece parts alternative processors memory controllers you know storage controllers io network interface cards smartnics and things like that where the communication across those resources is now where a lot of the innovation is going you see you're seeing a lot of that and now of course applications can take advantage of that especially now at the edge which is just a whole new frontier the edge certainly is part of that equation when you look at machine learning at training machine learning models the cpu actually does relatively little work most of it is happening in gpus in these parallel processes that are going on and the cpu is kind of acting as a traffic cop and you see that in the edge as well it's the same model at the edge where more of the intelligence is going to be out in discrete devices spread across the network and the cpu is going to be less of a uh you know less of a engine of intelligence at the same time though we've got cpus with we've got 100 core cpus are on the horizon and there are even 200 and 300 core cpus that we may see in the next uh in the next couple of years so cpus aren't standing still they are evolving to become really kind of super traffic cops for all of these other processors out in the network and on the edge so it's a very exciting time to be in hardware because so much innovation is happening really at the microprocessor level well we saw this you and i lived through the pc era and we saw a whole raft of applications come about as a result of the microprocessor the shift of the microprocessor-based economy we're going to see so we are seeing something similar with mobile and the edge you know just think about some of the numbers if you think about the traditional moore's law doubling a number of transistors every let's call it two years 18 to 24 months pat gelsinger at intel promises that intel is on that pace still but if you look at the apple m1 ultra they increased the transistor density 6x in the last 15 months okay so where is this another data point is the historical moore's law curve is 40 that's moderating to somewhere down you know down in the low 30s if you look at the apple a series i mean that thing is on average increasing performance at 110 a year when you add up into the combinatorial factors of the cpu the neural processing unit the gpu all the accelerators so we are seeing a new era the thing i i i wanted to bring up paul is you mentioned ai much of the ai work that's done today is modeling that's done in the cloud and when we talk about edge we think that the future of ai is ai inferencing in real time at the edge so you may not even be persisting that data but you're going to create a lot of data you're going to be operating on that data in streams and it's going to require a whole new new architectural thinking of hardware very low cost very low power very high performance to drive all that intelligence at the edge and a lot of that data is going to stay at the edge and and that's we're going to talk about some of that today with some of the ev innovations and the vehicle innovations and the intelligence in these vehicles yeah and in talking in its edge strategy which it outlined today and the announcements that are made today red hat very much uh playing to the importance of being able to run red hat enterprise linux at the edge the idea is you do these big machine learning models centrally and then you you take the you take what results from that and you move it out to smaller processors it's the only way we can cope with it with the explosion of data that will be uh that these sensors and other devices will be generating so some of the themes we're hearing in the uh announcements today that you wrote about paul obviously rel9 is huge uh red hat enterprise linux version nine uh new capabilities a lot of edge a lot of security uh new cross portfolio capabilities for the edge security in the software supply chain that's a big conversation especially post solar winds managed ansible when you think about red hat you really i think anyway about three things rel which is such as linux it powers the internet powers everything uh you think of openshift which is application development you think about ansible which is automation so itops so that's one of the announcements ansible on azure and then a lot of hybrid cloud talk and you're gonna hear a lot of talk this week about red hat's cloud services portfolio packaging red hat as services as managed services that's you know a much more popular delivery mechanism with clients because they're trying to make it easy and this is complicated stuff and it gets more complicated the more features they add and the more the more components of the red hat portfolio are are available it's it's gonna be complex to build these hybrid clouds so like many of these so thecube started doing physical events last summer by the way and so this is this is new to a lot of people uh they're here for the first time people are really excited we've definitely noticed a trend people are excited to be back together paul cormier talked about that he talked about the new normal you can define the new normal any way you want so paul cormier gave the uh the the intro keynote bidani interviewed amex stephanie cheris interviewed accenture both those firms are coming out stephanie's coming on with the in accenture as well matt hicks talked about product innovation i loved his reference to ada lovelace that was very cool he talked about uh serena uh ramyanajan a famous mathematician who nobody knew about when he was just a kid these were ignored individuals in the 1800s for years and years and years in the case of ada lovelace for a century even he asked the question what if we had discovered them earlier and acted on them and been able to iterate on them earlier and his point tied that to open source very brilliantly i thought and um keynotes which i appreciate are much shorter much shorter intimate they did a keynote in the round this time uh which i haven't seen before there's maybe a thousand people in there so a much smaller group much more intimate setting not a lot of back and forth but uh but there is there is a feeling of a more personal feel to this event than i've seen it past red hat summits yeah and i think that's a trend that we're going to see more of where the live audience is kind of the on the ground it's going to the vip audience but still catering to the virtual audience you don't want to lose them so that's why the keynotes are a lot tighter okay paul thank you for setting up red hat summit 2022 you're watching the cube's coverage we'll be right back wall-to-wall coverage for two days right after this short break [Music] you

(upbeat music) >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante. And welcome to this CUBE conversation where we welcome an ESG senior analyst, Bob Laliberte Bob, good to see you. >> Great to see you too. Thanks for having me >> Love it, I love to have the analyst sessions. Set it up. What's your scope, what's your area of expertise? >> So my coverage area right now is networking in its entirety. So that spans everything from enterprise networking, wired, wireless, campus, data center, et cetera. All the way up through telco and, in cloud networking. >> So how do you look at the landscape? One of the big things I think about a lot is how does the shift to cloud migration? How does that affect the existing, network layers? I mean, you got Cisco as the big whale and it's just, it's amazing to me. They still have whatever percent market share they have 60, 65% of the market. Are things, what's happening in the competitive landscape. How is cloud affecting that? >> That's a great question. I think the interesting piece is so many times organizations think about the network as plumbing. But the reality is the it's really important plumbing because as you talk about cloud and things get more distributed, well, guess what connects those distributed locations? It's the network. And so organizations as they've moved to the cloud you've seen a big shift with things like SD-WAN and so forth. How do I get more efficient connectivity up to that cloud? How do I not only enable able better connectivity between my data centers in the cloud, but now all my remote workers in the cloud. And so there's been a lot of big shifts going on that have driven the importance of having not only network, but secure networks. So like I said, cloud is one thing, and you're moving your applications there. But with the pandemic you saw the remote work. Think about the network administrators who we're managing, hey, I've got to control network connections between my data centers, a couple clouds and maybe dozens maybe a hundred remote branches. And now I'm connecting to 10,000 micro branches that I need to ensure that they can connect up to these applications and so forth. Hell of a lot more complex environment today than it used to be for these network teams. When we look at the, what we're seeing, how the networking providers are responding it's by driving comprehensive end-to-end solutions. So unifying, wired, wireless, and WAN. Driving efficiencies there. You're seeing even ThousandEyes for Cisco and things like that. Because they know the Internet's becoming more integral part of the corporate network. So being able to drive those types of things being able to, I think look at how to drive those operational efficiencies through AI and ML. So one of the big shifts we've seen in networking is the transition to cloud-based network management. And obviously that couple of things that helps with, first of all, the operations teams who are working remotely can more easily access it. But once all that data is up in the cloud, it creates a platform to be able to invest in AI/ML, and be able to drive intelligent alerting and even automation. And that's really what's needed because as the environments get more distributed and complex, you need to have that those operational efficiencies that automation, that intelligence to help them. >> How has remote work and hybrid work affected sort of network, spending priorities. Obviously when the pandemic hit you had to accommodate end points. And I always have this theory okay, when people come back to the office and I know it's going to be a different world but, the HQ probably needs some love as well. So has that been a tailwind for the industry? >> Absolutely, that's what we're seeing now. I think when the pandemic first hit, everyone said I've got to ramp up my VPNs. I've got to scale out my concentrators. I've got to add more firewalls in my data center. And then after a while, when they realized this was here to stay, they said, okay we just created that hub-and-spoke network that we just got rid of with SD-WAN. So what are the better solutions we can implement? So now you're seeing them not only implement better networking solutions for the remote workers. But reimagining what the campus looks like. Because it's not going to be ever 100% full or maybe it will, but how, for how many times a year will it be 100% full? So you've got to go from 80% cubes and 20% conference and collaboration areas, to 80% collaboration areas and 20% cubes. So we're seeing a lot of transition taking place in the campus environment as organizations are deploying newer technologies like Wi-Fi 6E. That have greater bandwidth to allow for those collaboration apps to run in those collaboration areas. Instead of just having the single wired conference room for video. Everyone's got to be able to run their video, voice and video collaboration apps. >> So how do you look at the landscape now? Again, you can't talk about networking without talking about Cisco. I think they, up there, I saw you and Zeus as talking about out, Cisco's quarter and other networking topics. Their long term guidance is for 60% growth for a company that size that's really outstanding. I mean, Cisco's, really has always been an execution machine of course. And it's a new era now under Chuck. There are more than ankle biters. If you look at Arista's doing pretty well there's guys like Extreme, there's others that are out there but nobody seemed to be able to unseat Cisco. What's happening in the landscape? >> I mean, that's a great question. Cisco's just been around for so long and been so big for so long. And you have to also keep in mind that with Cisco it's not just about the technology, but the fact from a if you think about it from a cultural standpoint these are workers who have been trained on Cisco since, some of them since high school. The educational component that Cisco has done has groomed generations of network technologists. So when they come into the market, they're fully familiar and used to Cisco. Plus they make a really good product and they've got products that cover everything. They cover the whole gambit. So they're still able to maintain their share. They're able to grow. They're able to move. They've made a shift last year. They announced in last spring that they were going to focus more on end-to-end. So instead of just having, hey, here's a point product, here's a point product. Here's a point product. Let's think about it in its entirety. Let's deliver a complete end-to-end solution solve bigger problems for customers, which obviously makes it much harder to remove when you're just trying to remove a piece of that single problem. But the other competitors are also having good years. And I think also the rising tide floats all boats. And so because of this distributed nature, the importance of the network, everyone is doing that. Plus obviously this has to be said, the supply chain issues where people are ordering ahead as well. But organizations, you look at Arista, they've gone from just being a data center company to expanding all the way down to the campus edge, wireless, right there creating an end-to-end environment Extreme did the same thing. They went out and made a lot of acquisitions. They pulled them all together, integrated. They're all moving to this cloud based end-to-end network management. Arista has been on a tear, bringing in a lot of, not only innovative technology, but innovative technologists. So if you look at some of the organizations they bought. I keep calling it Route 128, it's 128 Technologies. So sorry folks I live in Massachusetts. It's always been Route 128. >> You Remember when don't we. 128 Technology's Mist was their big. Mist was their, Mist was kind of like their VMware. VMware to EMC was Mist was to Juniper. And so we call it the Mistification of Juniper where every organization, every company they bring in they're rolling under that and this the AI engine. So they're bringing in 128 Technologies into that. They've got their own, their own stuff under that, their wired switches. So they've got this unified wired and wireless and WAN assurance now that they have. They've been gaining a lot of traction with that. And again, for the things we were talking about because it's far more distributed and complex. You need to have, It's not like people are getting replaced. It's not like, hey, we're leveraging this automation so that we can get rid of network teams. It's because it's getting so much more complex just to have the same number of people manage that more complex environment. We need those intelligence solutions. >> So I want to ask you about network and multi-cloud. And so it's kind of tongue in cheek because we coined this term super cloud. And so what we meant by that, so here's the premise. And I wonder you could give us your perspective. Multi-cloud, I've said many times is I think largely a symptom of multi-vendor I run in this, I run in AWS or, Azure, I've done the work to understand their primitives and or Google, whatever it is. But it's not like an abstraction layer that's floating above all those but now you're starting to see that. In fact, it re:Invent in November. The ecosystem it seemed like was everybody was focused on developing what we call these super clouds. And again, it's tongue in cheek, this abstraction layer it hides the underlying complexity of the primitives and the APIs adds incremental value on top of that. So there's a company Prosimo, which Steve Herrod, is invested in and others Praveen Akkiraju, whom I'm sure you know from Viptela. Aviatrix is another company that's sort of, Steve Malaney has come on theCUBE and talked about what they're doing. Like yeah, that's super cloud. It seems like it's something new and different than just multi-cloud which is kind of connecting in to different clouds. It's that value on top. What do you think about that? And what does that mean for networking? >> That's a really good point because we are starting to see the inception of organizations going beyond having multiple cloud providers and looking at starting to deploy applications across multiple clouds. It's still really early. The vast majority of organizations are still, I use this application for this cloud and this application for that cloud. But that's the next frontier. That's what they're trying to solve is how do I create this basically cloud fabric and make it as simple as possible. And again, all the things we've been talking about how do I, instead of you having to learn Amazon, Google, Azure networking technology, learn mine, I'll take care of it, but I'll abstract all that complexity from you and make it so much simpler to be able to connect to these interconnect, and connect to them in a seamless fashion. And so that's what they're really trying to do is they're. And the hard part is it takes really sophisticated solutions to remove that high level of complexity and make it simple for an organization to do that. So yeah, absolutely. >> If I had more time I'd make it shorter as somebody who writes a lot. And I think you're right. I think it is future. It's not definitely not here today, but the other thing is it ties into digital transformation. We used this again, throw that buzzword around but, companies not just tech company, I mean everybody's becoming like a tech company, but organizations, financial services companies, healthcare they're building their own clouds on top of the hyperscalers who spend $100 billion a year on CapEx. And that seems to be a trend that I think is going to take legs over this next decade. Just like in the previous decade everybody was thinking, okay, we're going to SaaSify our business softwares (indistinct) the world. And now it's software and cloud services are the way in which I'm going to create customer experiences. >> Correct, yeah. It's why should I go out and make an investment in technology when the technology's already there? And I can rent it for when I need it scale it as I need it and, and do all of that. I agree with that. I think that's something that we're seeing. The interesting part though is that when we look at our data points, probably let than 40% of the applications and workloads are in the cloud today. So there's still a role that the corporate data center plays. We are seeing over time. They expect that to progress and transition but I think there's still always going to be maybe a quarter of the workloads and applications may never leave. Depending on how they're built, et cetera. So there's always going to be that distributed environment where you've got workloads in the private data centers, workloads in multiple public clouds. And also, the big thing too is don't forget about the edge. We're seeing a lot more edge activity take place as organizations recognize, as they deploy more IOT devices, and want to get realtime business insights they've got to deploy the compute there. >> Well, and that's something that I wanted to ask you about, but going back to what you just said, which is, I agree with you. So that suggests to me, Bob that we're just kind of, with cloud just entering the steep part of the S curve. Amazon's headed toward $100 billion, run rate business. Maybe they probably won't get there this year but they will next year. We're entering that steep growth phase, really could be. It's incredible. But I wanted to ask you about the edge. Because you're right is we got to move compute to the edge, ARM is going to dominate. I would think, the edge. They already are with our smartphones. How do you see the cloud guys participating in the edge? Whether it was Andy Jassy, or now Adam Selipsky or anybody at Amazon. They have the dogma of in the fullness of time all workloads are going to be in the cloud. So they either have to change their definition of cloud. Or they're wrong. So what's your thought on that? >> I think it really starts coming down to what's your definition of edge. And so, much like when the cloud technologies first came about and you had all the shadow IT. Everyone running off, and everyone thought oh this is all great, until you realized you had to operationalize it and you had to pull the brakes. Stop doing that. We're going to make sure IT operations. >> Call the CIO up. Exactly, finding out where stuff was by going through accounting and seeing credit card charges. For the edge what we've seen I think is maybe organizations really saying I've got to deploy my servers in my own site. Right at that edge in order to get the lowest possible latency. And so what I think we're starting to see is organizations looking at that and saying, okay well I'm in a metro and I've got 25 locations in a metro. And I've deployed technology to every single one of those sites. Do I need it there? Or can I put it in an Equinix facility that's less than five milliseconds from all 25 sites? So I think there's starting to be this pragmatic approach of looking at let's look at the edge, let's take a look at what type of latencies. What is our definition of real time. When do we actually need the data and so forth? What kind of connectivity do we have? And then from there figure out how we go about connecting it. And so for companies like AWS and Google and Azure a lot of them there's local zones and things like that. They're deploying them in those colos because they don't have data centers in every metro but they can leverage an Equinix. They can leverage someone else's hardware that's there to deploy their software stack within that location. So I think that's something that we're starting to see more and more of as the edge. And obviously the association with the telcos as well. They've got a great footprint. If you want to get close to the edge with their colos Their home offices and things like that and whatnot. Their ability to move the compute closer to the edge, the base stations of the antennas and things like that, are certainly significant. And that's why you're seeing the wavelengths and things like that, programs like that. >> So I was going to close, but there some really interesting topics you just brought up. Call it whatever you going to call it near edge, far edge or deep edge. And you mentioned real time. Yeah. So for those Equinix data centers, I don't need, true real time. But for Tesla, I need real time. I need real time inference at the edge probably using a bunch of ARM cores and I can't go back to any cloud. How do you look at that? Both, I would think big markets. Do you have a sense as to, is one bigger than the other? Are they both just enormous or we don't even know yet. >> I'm not sure that we know yet. I think certainly, it's riding the tail of the IOTs. So the more sensors, the more things that are deployed the more that, that data businesses realize they can leverage that data to make real time business insights to drive either better experiences. And if you're in retail. So location based services and real time offer management it doesn't do any good to offer a coupon for something that you've, that's 40 yards behind you. That that's past, like you said with the cars there's, I've seen some studies recently. They say, well, based on the latency, if the command is to stop and you're at one millisecond, it stops within four inches. If you are at 50 milliseconds, it stops 10 feet later. That's a big difference. And I don't know if those numbers are right but you get the idea about the impact, what the real time impact is of. >> Margin is not huge. >> Exactly, so that's where organizations, I think first and foremost need to take a pragmatic approach to determine what is real time for us. What's our definition of it. And then that can lead them to where do I need to place this compute technology? And then that goes to how do I then connect to it? So for the Teslas and so forth, obviously you're going to want 5G connections if possible. Ultra low latency and not just any 5G. The good stuff, the millimeter bandwidth stuff that that's the ultra low latency. >> So let's wrap. So, what's going on in your research world obviously the big, big acquisition tech target they seem to be investing in ESG. You guys are really growing and hiring. That's awesome. Any research that you're working on? >> Yeah, there's a couple of couple of projects we have going on right now. We're wrapping up a four part distributed cloud research series. So we did it on distributed cloud infrastructure. Applications, observability. And now this last one is on the edge. Coincidentally. So we're working on that. We've got some new network modernization research that we've published. And we're going to be looking, from a networking perspective looking at end-to-end network modernization which will be coming out soon. >> Awesome, Bob, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. I really would love to have you back and chat about some of those things. Observability hot space. God, I wish we had more time. >> Absolutely, appreciate it, thanks. >> And thank you for watching this CUBE conversation. This is Dave Vellante and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel and AWS. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the cubes. Continuing coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 Virtual the Cube Virtual. We're here covering the partner ecosystem and some of the new innovations coming from the reinvent community. Let's talk about something that anyone who drives a vehicle can relate to. Roadside assistance with me or Beth Davidson, chief marketing officer at a zero, and Raj borrows the vice president and c t o at zero folks, welcome to the Cube. >>Hello, nice to see you. >>So let's start with you. Maybe talk a little bit about your your mission, how you work with automakers. You've got, you know, a lot of good pipeline, their insurers and other others in the in the ecosystem. Tell us about the company. >>Absolutely. So for 50 years, we've been helping consumers with their cars. Um, that's what it comes down Thio. We know that one in three people has a roadside event every year on the way you think about that is, you know, if in three years you haven't had a roadside event, tick tock. You know, statistically, it's coming for you. We work with everybody. We work with the auto manufacturers. We work with the insurers. What we're trying to do is get closer to consumers. On the reason you may have never heard of a Gero is that's by design. Were white label. We work for our clients typically on. Do you know they trust us with their consumers? They trust us with their brands. Um, and we're just in the business of getting consumers back on the road. >>Thank you for that. So talk a little bit about how you approach this problem. I mean, you looked out roadside assistance, and you know, we can again all relate. Oh, am I up to date or at least the car? So there's gotta be some kind of 800 number in my glove compartment somewhere, right? So what was the state of roadside assistance before you guys got involved? And maybe we could get into sort of how you solve the problem. >>Yeah, I think that's a great question, Dave, as we look at roadside assistance, everyone things about picking up the phone number 800 number from the glove box compartment And over the years we have invested heavily on bringing a fully digital experience to our customers from insurance companies to AM. And when this Alexa opportunity came up earlier this summer, he said, Hi. How about taking that digital experience, adding, all the Alexa do goods goods about voice interaction, making it very interactive for the users to request that experience in a very normal consumer friendly, friendly were and brought that we integrated all those services got that whole uber like experience with for roadside assistance? >>Yeah. Now. So, Beth, you know, I reminded when, like the smart TV first came out, you had a type in right, and we're really getting spoiled now. It should be easy as a blink. Okay, so you're unveiling blink, you know, what's this service all about? >>So this service is about, you know, trying to get to consumers as easy as we can and getting removing the friction. Right? So what Rogers just talking about is again we asked consumers. We say, you know, imagine that tomorrow you went out and there was a flat tire on your car in your driveway. What do you dio? And universally, they pause and They're like, I don't know. I haven't thought about it, right. And then they start making up stuff. Like maybe I'm gonna go through the glove box. Maybe I'm going to go through my files. But wouldn't it be great if they could just kind of talked to the air and say, Alexa, what? Doe ideo and have it work for them, you know, And that's one friction. The second friction is consumers actually don't know their addresses or don't know it. Well, we joke around the office about the difference between saying you're on route one and Route one A is is the difference between 20 minutes of that tow truck getting to you in time. You know, these air points of friction that technology can help us with, you know, and then with payments even better, Right? So the fact that you can pay for this thing with Amazon pay and you don't have to worry about having cash for a driver or have a credit card. I mean, there's just so many points of friction that are reduced by using Alexa. >>Okay, so let's talk about the the integrations here in the technical aspects of how you put everything together and made it work, and we'll get into some of the cloud aspect >>Attack launched. We're asking users to tell what they want, and they can tell the whole address. They can get the address from the Alexa device. Or if it is Alexa Auto. The GPS will provide us the Latin belong. And we take that address and we get what kind of experience they want. Whether it is a flat tire, we're going to send somebody else to put despair. If it is a jump start, we're gonna put send somebody Thio jumps out the vehicle. So depending on that, we put pull all that information together, get this consent for the user to charge their an Amazon parrot card on profile, and then go So it's literally to come to sentences. And then we're on. We're on to sending you experience with some of the text messages that will allow you to truck tractor truck coming down to your driver. >>Now I'll show my age. So yeah, we've all I don't have all but I've been locked out of the car many times Now, in the old days, used to be able to get a coat hanger and pop it open. But so? So that people still get locked out of their cars. >>Yes, cars. More often than not, it's, you know, the key. Fob stopped working, right? Lost the battery of my key fob these days. But it's the equivalent. >>Alright, so All right, so right. What else do you guys do in the cloud? Do you use a W s for your own business? Maybe share with us some of >>the over the years. For the past 78 years, we have, uh, integrated and got all of our technologies into the AWS cloud. And we have now revamped and re innovated on top of those and create a new product lines. We have accident scene management. We do, um, handle automatic clash notifications for some of our partner customers. We dio dealer service appointments, so we do a lot of these things. And all of these are not possible without the amazing teams. 20 or so teams that we have across three continents working on 50 plus, uh, approved services on aws, uh, innovating around the clock, bringing these new innovations to our market. >>So, Beth, you were saying earlier that you, you know, want to reach out to the consumer. I mean, how do you market? Uh, you obviously go through through partners. And I'm curious system, What's your go to market and maybe how you're different from from others in the marketplace, >>right? Eso again because we're white label with most of the client side business that we do, we help our clients message better on DSO. We talked to them about how often you have to remind people that this isn't a one and done, um, on the skill store for Alexa. You know how we're different is you know, you don't aske much as I love the branding that we came up with blank roadside. You know, you don't actually have to use it. You don't have to say, Alexa, open my blank roadside. You could just say, Alexa, help me with my flat tire, which really helps cut out the fact that I actually need to market the brand like a traditional market or would have had Thio. But our biggest problem is how do you market something to someone in that moment of need, right? How do I How do I prime you to get you to think about it way, way before you ever actually have the problem. >>And how do you charge for the service? >>Eso It's it's a flat fee on did. It's better than what consumers would be able to get on their own. Or at least we believe so. But it is a flat fee for any kind of road service, so it's flat tire. It's dead batteries. It's winching you out. You know, it's it's all of those things. Um, that can happen to you that are just kind of those minor everyday mishaps. >>Okay? And so and so do I. How do I get it? Do I do I have tow hope that my you know, if I'm leasing a car that the auto has it, can I go direct? How doe I >>all direct? It's all direct. So you don't have to worry about an I d number membership number. You're just paying for it out of your Amazon account on. Do you know you don't have to worry about knowing your how many digit vin number. You know, none of that stuff. It's just one and done. >>Awesome. So, Raja, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about your your scale. Um, maybe I don't know if you can share any metrics and what What factors? The cloud generally and a W s specifically has has played and enabling that scale. >>Yeah, we have amazing number of integrations with our Fortune 100 insurance companies. Um, over 35 insurance companies and we have 100 and 70 b two b clients today, Um, and we integrate with them were deeply, um, uh integrated into the building systems into their coverage systems. And all of that is to be able to provide that sub minute sub second experience to our customers when they're calling in, uh, when they need the service. Um, right now we do over a billion AP A calls. As a result of these transactions, all these integrations or for quarter and all of these, uh, our third parties, service providers who go around the on the roads and provide this location information today off the tow trucks to us, all of these 8 8000 or so trucks extreme that information to us almost on every hour. So we bring all that information together on the AWS platform, stream it back shaded back in a very secure private manner back to the customers, right at the moment of need. >>Yeah, So I mean, without the cloud, you'd be backing up. You know, the servers to the truck to the loading dock. And it would just take so much longer toe spin up new products. I would imagine that you guys have a lot of ideas about new data products or new services that you can you can provide. Um, you probably I'm sure you can tell us what they are, But but in terms of the time, it takes you to conceive toe to get to the market. That must be impressed with the cloud. >>Yeah, it's a fraction of what it used to take years ago when we were not in AWS, right? And it also allows us to not to spend all this time on worrying about the same thing that you used to worry about for every project. Now you can actually think about how, what how you let be able to leverage new innovations that are coming in and actually improve improve the experience with some kind of intelligence that is added on, which makes the experience much smoother for people. >>Well, Beth will give you last word. But first of all, thanks for helping us make our lives even even better and more convenient. But bring us home. What's the last word here? >>So the last word is, you know, we dio we do 12 million events a year right now, right? And if you if you like math, it's 35,000 day. It's 20 for every minute, you know. And the work that that Rajan team have done to make the scalable means we're ready to do the next 12 million on. Do you know we know. We know there are consumers out there having those events. We just want to be there for you, you know, take care of that frustrating event on get you back >>on the road. Well, it's just, you know, having you there and being able to push a button and talk to a device is just It's a game changer. So thank you guys for coming on the cube and sharing your story really interesting. Yeah. All right. Thanks for watching. Keep it right there. You're watching the cubes coverage of aws reinvent 2020. We'll be right back right after this short break

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with coverage of Yukon and Cloud. Native Con North America 2020 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat The Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to the cubes Ongoing coverage of Cuba con North America. Joe Fernandez is here. He's with Stephanie, Cheras and Joe's, the V, P and GM for core cloud platforms. That red hat and Stephanie is this s VP and GM of the Red Hat Enterprise. Lennox bu. Two great friends of the Cube. Awesome seeing you guys. How you doing? >>It's great to be here, Dave. Yeah, thanks >>for the opportunity. >>Hey, so we all talked, you know, recently, uh, answerable fest Seems like a while ago, but But we talked about what's new? Red hat really coming at it from an automation perspective. But I wonder if we could take a view from open shift and what's new from the standpoint of you really focus on helping customers, you know, change their operations and operationalize. And Stephanie, Maybe you could start, and then, you know, Joe, you could bring in some added color. >>No, that's great. And I think you know one of the things we try and do it. Red hat clearly building off of open source. We have been focused on this open hybrid cloud strategy for, you know, really years. Now the beauty of it is that hybrid cloud and open hybrid cloud continues to evolve right with bringing in things like speed and stability and scale and now adding in other footprints, like manage services as well as edge and pulling that all together across the whole red hat portfolio from the platforms, right? Certainly with Lennox and roll into open shift in the platform with open shift and then adding automation, which certainly you need for scale. But it's ah, it's continues to evolve as the as the definition of open hybrid cloud evolves. >>Great. So thank you, Stephanie jokes. You guys got hard news here that you could maybe talk about 46? >>Yeah. Eso eso open shift is our enterprise kubernetes platform. With this announcement, we announced the release of open ship 4.6 Eso eso We're doing releases every quarter tracking the upstream kubernetes release cycle. So this brings communities 1.19, which is, um but itself brings a number of new innovations, some specific things to call out. We have this new automated installer for open shift on bare metal, and that's definitely a trend that we're seeing is more customers not only looking at containers but looking at running containers directly on bare metal environments. Open shift provides an abstraction, you know, which combines Cuban. And he's, uh, on top of Lennox with RL. I really across all environments, from bare metal to virtualization platforms to the various public clouds and out to the edge. But we're seeing a lot of interest in bare metal. This is basically increasing the really three automation to install seamlessly and manage upgrades in those environments. We're also seeing a number of other enhancements open shifts service mesh, which is our SDO based solution for managing, uh, the interactions between micro services being able to manage traffic against those services. Being able to do tracing. We have a new release of that on open shift Ford out six on then, um, some work specific to the public cloud that we started extending into the government clouds. So we already supported AWS and Azure. With this release, we added support for the A W s government cloud as well. Azaz Acela's Microsoft Azure government on dso again This is really important to like our public sector customers who are looking to move to the public cloud leveraging open shift as an abstraction but wanted thio support it on the specialized clouds that they need to use with azure gonna meet us Cup. >>So, joke, we stay there for a minute. So so bare metal talking performance there because, you know, you know what? You really want to run fast, right? So that's the attractiveness there. And then the point about SDO in the open, open shift service measure that makes things simpler. Maybe talk a little bit about sort of business impact and what customers should expect to get out of >>these two things. So So let me take them one at a time, right? So so running on bare metal certainly performances a consideration. You know, I think a lot of fixed today are still running containers, and Cuban is on top of some form of virtualization. Either a platform like this fear or open stack, or maybe VMS in the in one of the public clouds. But, you know containers don't depend on a virtualization layer. Containers only depend on Lennox and Lennox runs great on bare metal. So as we see customers moving more towards performance and Leighton see sensitive workloads, they want to get that Barry mental performance on running open shift on bare metal and their containerized applications on that, uh, platform certainly gives them that advantage. Others just want to reduce the cost right. They want to reduce their VM sprawl, the infrastructure and operational cost of managing avert layer beneath their careers clusters. And that's another benefit. So we see a lot of uptake in open shift on bare metal on the service match side. This is really about You know how we see applications evolving, right? Uh, customers are moving more towards these distributed architectures, taking, you know, formally monolithic or enter applications and splitting them out into ah, lots of different services. The challenge there becomes. Then how do you manage all those connections? Right, Because something that was a single stack is now comprised of tens or hundreds of services on DSO. You wanna be able to manage traffic to those services, so if the service goes down, you can redirect that those requests thio to an alternative or fail over service. Also tracing. If you're looking at performance issues, you need to know where in your architecture, er you're having those degradations and so forth. And, you know, those are some of the challenges that people can sort of overcome or get help with by using service mash, which is powered by SDO. >>And then I'm sorry, Stephanie ever get to in a minute. But which is 11 follow up on that Joe is so the rial differentiation between what you bring in what I can just if I'm in a mono cloud, for instance is you're gonna you're gonna bring this across clouds. I'm gonna You're gonna bring it on, Prem And we're gonna talk about the edge in in a minute. Is that right? From a differentiation standpoint, >>Yeah, that That's one of the key >>differentiations. You know, Read has been talking about the hybrid cloud for a long time. We've we've been articulating are open hybrid cloud strategy, Andi, >>even if that's >>not a strategy that you may be thinking about, it is ultimately where folks end up right, because all of our enterprise customers still have applications running in the data center. But they're also all starting to move applications out to the public cloud. As they expand their usage of public cloud, you start seeing them adopted multi cloud strategies because they don't want to put all their eggs in one basket. And then for certain classes of applications, they need to move those applications closer to the data. And and so you start to see EJ becoming part of that hybrid cloud picture on DSO. What we do is basically provide a consistency across all those environments, right? We want run great on Amazon, but also great on Azure on Google on bare metal in the data center during medal out at the edge on top of your favorite virtualization platform. And yeah, that that consistency to take a set of applications and run them the same way across all those environments. That is just one of the key benefits of going with red hat as your provider for open hybrid cloud solutions. >>All right, thank you. Stephanie would come back to you here, so I mean, we talk about rail a lot because your business unit that you manage, but we're starting to see red hats edge strategy unfolded. Kind of real is really the linchpin I wanna You could talk about how you're thinking about the edge and and particularly interested in how you're handling scale and why you feel like you're in a good position toe handle that massive scale on the requirements of the edge and versus hey, we need a new OS for the edge. >>Yeah, I think. And Joe did a great job of said and up it does come back to our view around this open hybrid cloud story has always been about consistency. It's about that language that you speak, no matter where you want to run your applications in between rela on on my side and Joe with open shift and and of course, you know we run the same Lennox underneath. So real core os is part of open shift that consistently see leads to a lot of flexibility, whether it's through a broad ecosystem or it's across footprints. And so now is we have been talking with customers about how they want to move their applications closer to data, you know, further out and away from their data center. So some of it is about distributing your data center, getting that compute closer to the data or closer to your customers. It drives, drives some different requirements right around. How you do updates, how you do over the air updates. And so we have been working in typical red hat fashion, right? We've been looking at what's being done in the upstream. So in the fedora upstream community, there is a lot of working that has been done in what's called the I. O. T Special Interest group. They have been really investigating what the requirements are for this use case and edge. So now we're really pleased in, um, in our most recent release of really aid relate 00.3. We have put in some key capabilities that we're seeing being driven by these edge use cases. So things like How do you do quick image generation? And that's important because, as you distribute, want that consistency created tailored image, be able to deploy that in a consistent way, allow that to address scale, meet security requirements that you may have also right updates become very important when you start to spread this out. So we put in things in order to allow remote device mirroring so that you can put code into production and then you can schedule it on those remote devices toe happen with the minimal disruption. Things like things like we all know now, right with all this virtual stuff, we often run into things like not ideal bandwidth and sometimes intermittent connectivity with all of those devices out there. So we put in, um, capabilities around, being able to use something called rpm Austria, Um, in order to be able to deliver efficient over the air updates. And then, of course, you got to do intelligent rollbacks for per chance that something goes wrong. How do you come back to a previous state? So it's all about being able to deploy at scale in a distributed way, be ready for that use case and have some predictability and consistency. And again, that's what we build our platforms for. It's all about predictability and consistency, and that gives you flexibility to add your innovation on top. >>I'm glad you mentioned intelligent rollbacks I learned a long time ago. You always ask the question. What happens when something goes wrong? You learn a lot from the answer to that, but You know, we talk a lot about cloud native. Sounds like you're adapting well to become edge native. >>Yeah. I mean, I mean, we're finding whether it's inthe e verticals, right in the very specific use cases or whether it's in sort of an enterprise edge use case. Having consistency brings a ton of flexibility. It was funny, one of our talking with a customer not too long ago. And they said, you know, agility is the new version of efficiency. So it's that having that sort of language be spoken everywhere from your core data center all the way out to the edge that allows you a lot of flexibility going forward. >>So what if you could talk? I mentioned just mentioned Cloud Native. I mean, I think people sometimes just underestimate the effort. It takes tow, make all this stuff run in all the different clouds the engineering efforts required. And I'm wondering what kind of engineering you do with if any with the cloud providers and and, of course, the balance of the ecosystem. But But maybe you could describe that a little bit. >>Yeah, so? So Red Hat works closely with all the major cloud providers you know, whether that's Amazon, Azure, Google or IBM Cloud. Obviously, Andi, we're you know, we're very keen on sort of making sure that we're providing the best environment to run enterprise applications across all those environments, whether you're running it directly just with Lennox on Ralph or whether you're running it in a containerized environment with Open Chef, which which includes route eso eso, our partnership includes work we do upstream, for example. You know, Red Hat help. Google launched the Cuban community, and I've been, you know, with Google. You know, we've been the top two contributors driving that product that project since inception, um, but then also extends into sort of our hosted services. So we run a jointly developed and jointly managed service called the Azure Red Hat Open Shift Service. Together with Microsoft were our joint customers can get access to open shift in an azure environment as a native azure service, meaning it's, you know, it's fully integrated, just like any other. As your service you can tied into as you're building and so forth. It's sold by by Azure Microsoft's sales reps. Um, but you know, we get the benefit of working together with our Microsoft counterparts and developing that service in managing that service and then in supporting our joint customers. We over the summer announced sort of a similar partnership with Amazon and we'll be launching are already doing pilots on the Amazon Red Hat Open ship service, which is which is, you know, the same concept now applied to the AWS cloud. So that will be coming out g a later this year, right? But again, whether it's working upstream or whether it's, you know, partnering on managed services. I know Stephanie team also do a lot of work with Microsoft, for example, on sequel server on Lenox dot net on Lenox. Whoever thought be running that applications on Linux. But that's, you know, a couple of years old now, a few years old, So eso again. It's been a great partnership, not just with Microsoft, but with all the cloud providers. >>So I think you just shared a little little He showed a little leg there, Joe, what's what's coming g A. Later this year. I want to circle back to >>that. Yeah, eso we way announced a preview earlier this year of of the Amazon Red Hat Open ships service. It's not generally available yet. We're you know, we're taking customers. We want toe, sort of be early access, get access to pilots and then that'll be generally available later this year. Although Red Hat does manage our own service Open ship dedicated that's available on AWS today. But that's a service that's, you know, solely, uh, operated by Red Hat. This new service will be jointly operated by Red Hat and Amazon together Idea. That would be sort of a service that we are delivering together as partners >>as a managed service and and okay, so that's in beta now. I presume if it's gonna be g a little, it's >>like, Yeah, that's yeah, >>that's probably running on bare metal. I would imagine that >>one is running >>on E. C. Two. That's running an A W C C T V exactly, and >>run again. You know, all of our all of >>our I mean, we you know, that open shift does offer bare metal cloud, and we do you know, we do have customers who can take the open shift software and deploy it there right now are managed. Offering is running on top of the C two and on top of Azure VM. But again, this is this is appealing to customers who, you know, like what we bring in terms of an enterprise kubernetes platform, but don't wanna, you know, operated themselves, right? So it's a fully managed service. You just come and build and deploy your APS, and then we manage all of the infrastructure and all the underlying platform for you >>that's going to explode. My prediction. Um, let's take an example of heart example of security. And I'm interested in how you guys ensure a consistent, you know, security experience across all these locations on Prem Cloud. Multiple clouds, the edge. Maybe you could talk about that. And Stephanie, I'm sure you have a perspective on this is Well, from the standpoint of of Ralph. So who wants to start? >>Yeah, Maybe I could start from the bottom and then I'll pass it over to Joe to talk a bit. I think one of these aspects about security it's clearly top of mind of all customers. Um, it does start with the very bottom and base selection in your OS. We continue to drive SC Lennox capabilities into rural to provide that foundational layer. And then as we run real core OS and open shift, we bring over that s C Lennox capability as well. Um, but, you know, there's a whole lot of ways to tackle this we've done. We've done a lot around our policies around, um see ve updates, etcetera around rail to make sure that we are continuing to provide on DCA mitt too. Mitigating all critical and importance, providing better transparency toe how we assess those CVS. So security is certainly top of mind for us. And then as we move forward, right there's also and joke and talk about the security work we do is also capabilities to do that in container ization. But you know, we we work. We work all the way from the base to doing things like these images in these easy to build images, which are tailored so you can make them smaller, less surface area for security. Security is one of those things. That's a lifestyle, right? You gotta look at it from all the way the base in the operating system, with things like sc Lennox toe how you build your images, which now we've added new capabilities. There And then, of course, in containers. There's, um there's a whole focus in the open shift area around container container security, >>Joe. Anything you want to add to that? >>Yeah, sure. I >>mean, I think, you know, obviously, Lennox is the foundation for, you know, for all public clouds. It's it's driving enterprise applications in the data center, part of keeping those applications. Security is keeping them up to date And, you know, through, you know, through real, we provide, you know, securing up to date foundation as a Stephanie mentioned as you move into open shift, you're also been able to take advantage of, uh, Thio to take advantage of essentially mutability. Right? So now the application that you're deploying isn't immutable unit that you build once as a container image, and then you deploy that out all your various environments. When you have to do an update, you don't go and update all those environments. You build a new image that includes those updates, and then you deploy those images out rolling fashion and, as you mentioned that you could go back if there's issues. So the idea, the notion of immutable application deployments has a lot to do with security, and it's enabled by containers. And then, obviously you have cured Panetti's and, you know, and all the rest of our capabilities as part of open Shift managing that for you. We've extended that concept to the entire platform. So Stephanie mentioned, real core West Open shift has always run on real. What we have done in open shift for is we've taken an immutable version of Ralph. So it's the same red hat enterprise Lennox that we've had for years. But now, in this latest version relate, we have a new way to package and deploy it as a relic or OS image, and then that becomes part of the platform. So when customers want toe in addition to keeping their applications up to date, they need to keep their platform up to dates. Need to keep, you know, up with the latest kubernetes patches up with the latest Lennox packages. What we're doing is delivering that as one platform, so when you get updates for open shift, they could include updates for kubernetes. They could include updates for Lennox itself as well as all the integrated services and again, all of this is just you know this is how you keep your applications secure. Is making sure your you know, taking care of that hygiene of, you know, managing your vulnerabilities, keeping everything patched in up to date and ultimately ensuring security for your application and users. >>I know I'm going a little bit over, but I have I have one question that I wanna ask you guys and a broad question about maybe a trends you see in the business. I mean, you look at what we talk a lot about cloud native, and you look at kubernetes and the interest in kubernetes off the charts. It's an area that has a lot of spending momentum. People are putting resource is behind it. But you know, really, to build these sort of modern applications, it's considered state of the art on. Do you see a lot of people trying to really bring that modern approach toe any cloud we've been talking about? EJ. You wanna bring it also on Prem And people generally associate this notion of cloud native with this kind of elite developers, right? But you're bringing it to the masses and there's 20 million plus software developers out there, and most you know, with all due respect that you know they may not be the the the elites of the elite. So how are you seeing this evolve in terms of re Skilling people to be able, handle and take advantage of all this? You know, cool new stuff that's coming out. >>Yeah, I can start, you know, open shift. Our focus from the beginning has been bringing kubernetes to the enterprise. So we think of open shift as the dominant enterprise kubernetes platform enterprises come in all shapes and sizes and and skill sets. As you mentioned, they have unique requirements in terms of how they need toe run stuff in their data center and then also bring that to production, whether it's in the data center across the public clouds eso So part of it is, you know, making sure that the technology meets the requirements and then part of it is working. The people process and and culture thio make them help them understand what it means to sort of take advantage of container ization and cloud native platforms and communities. Of course, this is nothing new to red hat, right? This is what we did 20 years ago when we first brought Lennox to the Enterprise with well, right on. In essence, Carozza is basically distributed. Lennox right Kubernetes builds on Lennox and brings it out to your cluster to your distributed systems on across the hybrid cloud. So So nothing new for Red Hat. But a lot of the same challenges apply to this new cloud native world. >>Awesome. Stephanie, we'll give you the last word, >>all right? And I think just a touch on what Joe talked about it. And Joe and I worked really closely on this, right? The ability to run containers right is someone launches down this because it is magical. What could be done with deploying applications? Using a container technology, we built the capabilities and the tools directly into rural in order to be able to build and deploy, leveraging things like pod man directly into rural. And that's exactly so, folks. Everyone who has a real subscription today can start on their container journey, start to build and deploy that, and then we work to help those skills then be transferrable as you movinto open shift in kubernetes and orchestration. So, you know, we work very closely to make sure that the skills building can be done directly on rail and then transfer into open shift. Because, as Joe said, at the end of the day, it's just a different way to deploy. Lennox, >>You guys are doing some good work. Keep it up. And thanks so much for coming back in. The Cube is great to talk to you today. >>Good to see you, Dave. >>Yes, Thank you. >>All right. Thank you for watching everybody. The cubes coverage of Cuba con en a continues right after this.

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders around the globe. These are cloud native insights. Hi, I'm stew Minimum and the host of Cloud Native Insights. And the threat that we've been pulling on with Cloud Native is that we needed to be able to take advantage of the innovation and agility that cloud in the ecosystem around it can bring, not just the location. It's It's not just the journey, but how do I take advantage of something today and keep being able to move for Happy to welcome back to the program one of our regulars and someone that I've had lots of discussion about? Cloud Cloud. Native Serverless So Cory Quinn, the Keith Cloud economists at the Duck Bill Group. Corey, always good to see you. Thanks for joining us. >>It is great to see me. And I always love having the opportunity to share my terrible opinions with people who then find themselves tarred by the mere association. And there's certainly no exception to use, too. Thanks for having me back. Although I question your judgment. >>Yeah, you know, what was that? Pandora's box. I open when I was like Hey, Corey, let's try you on video so much. And if people go out, they can look at your feet and you've spent lots of money on equipment. You have a nice looking set up. I guess you missed that one window of opportunity to get your hair cut in San Francisco during the pandemic. But be doesn't may Corey, why don't you give our audience just the update You went from a solo or mentor of the cloud? First you have a partner and a few other people, and you're now you've got economists. >>Yes, it comes down to separating out. What I'm doing with my nonsense from other people's other people's careers might very well be impacted by it considered tweet of mine. When you start having other clouds, economists and realize, okay, this is no longer just me we're talking about here. It forces a few changes. I was told one day that I would not be the chief economist. I smile drug put on a backlog item to order a new business cards because it's not like we're going to a lot of events these days, and from my perspective, things continue mostly a base. The back. To pretend people now means that there's things that my company does that I'm no longer directly involved with, which is a relief, that absolutely, ever. But it's been an interesting right. It's always strange. Is the number one thing that people who start businesses say is that if they knew what they were getting into, they'd never do it again. I'm starting to understand that. >>Yeah, well, Corey, as I mentioned you, and I have had lots of discussions about Cloud about multi Cloud server. Listen, like when you wrote an article talking about multi cloud is a worse practice. One of the things underneath is when I'm using cloud. I should really be able to leverage that cloud. One of the concerns that when you and I did a cube con and cloud native con is does multi cloud become a least common denominator? And a comment that I heard you say was if I'm just using cloud and the very basic services of it, you know, why don't I go to an AWS or an azure which have hundreds of services? Maybe I could just find something that is, you know, less expensive because I'm basically thinking of it as my server somewhere else. Which, of course, cloud is much more than so you do with a lot of very large companies that help them with their bills. What difference there differentiates the companies that get advantage from the cloud versus those that just kind of fit in another location, >>largely the stories that they tell themselves internally and how they wind up adapting to cloud. If the reason I got into my whole feel about why multi cloud is a worst practice is that of you best practices a sensible defaults, I view multi cloud as a ridiculous default. Sure, there are cases where it's important, and so I don't say I'm not suggesting for a second that those people who are deciding to go down that are necessarily making wrong decisions. But when you're building something from scratch with this idea toward taking a single workload and deploying it anywhere in almost every case, it's the wrong decision. Yes, there are going to be some workloads that are better suited. Other places. If we're talking about SAS, including that in the giant wrapper of cloud definition in terms of what was then, sure you would be nuts to wind of running on AWS and then decide you're also going to go with codecommit instead of git Hub. That's not something sensible people to use get up or got sick. But when I am suggesting, is that the idea of building absolutely every piece of infrastructure in a way that avoids any of the differentiated offerings that your primary cloud provider uses is just generally not a great occasionally you need to. But that's not the common case, and people are believing that it is >>well, and I'd like to dig a little deeper. Some of those differentiated services out there there are concerned, but some that said, You know, I think back to the past model. I want to build something. I can have it live ever anywhere. But those differentiated services are something that I should be able to get value out of it. So do you have any examples, or are there certain services that you have his favorites that you've seen customers use? And they say, Wow, it's it's something that is effective. It's something that is affordable, and I can get great value out of this because I didn't have to build it. And all of these hyper scaler have lots of engineers built, building lots of cool things. And I want to take advantage of that innovation. >>Sure, that's most of them. If we're being perfectly honest, there are remarkably few services that have no valid use cases for no customer anywhere. A lot of these solve an awful lot of pain that customers have. Dynamodb is a good example of this Is that one a lot of folks can relate to. It's super fast, charges you for what you use, and that is generally yet or a provision Great. But you don't have to worry about instances. You have to worry about scaling up or scaling down in the traditional sense. And that's great. The problem is, is great. How do I migrate off of this on to something else? Well, that's a good question. And if that is something that you need to at least have a theoretical exodus for, maybe Dynamo DV is the wrong service for you to pick your data store personally. If I have to build for a migration in mind on no sequel basis, I'll pick mongo DB every time, not because it's any easier to move it, but because it's so good at losing data, that'll have remarkably little bit left. Migrate. >>Yeah, Corey, of course. One of the things that you help customers with quite a bit is on the financial side of it. And one of the challenges if I moved from my environment and I move to the public cloud, is how do I take advantage not only of the capability to the cloud but the finances of the cloud. I've talked to many customers that when you modernize your pull things apart, maybe you start leveraging serverless capabilities. And if I tune things properly, I can have a much more affordable solution versus that. I just took my stuff and just shoved it all in the cloud kind of a traditional lift and shift. I might not have good economics. When I get to the cloud. What do you see along those lines? >>I'd say you're absolutely right with that assessment. If you are looking at hitting break even on your cloud migration in anything less than five years, it's probably wrong. The reason to go to Cloud is not to save money. There are edge cases where it makes sense, Sure, but by and large you're going to wind up spending longer in the in between state that you would believe eventually you're going to give up and call it hybrid game over. And at some point, if you stall long enough, you'll find that the cloud talent starts reaching out of your company. At which point that Okay, great. Now we're stuck in this scenario because no one wants to come in and finish the job is harder than we thought we landed. But it becomes this story of not being able to forecast what the economics are going to look like in advanced, largely because people don't understand where their workloads start and stop what the failure modes look like and how that's going to manifest itself in a cloud provider environment. That's why lift and shift is popular. People hate, lift and ship. It's a terrible direction to go in. Yeah, so are all the directions you can go in as far as migrating, short of burning it to the ground for insurance money and starting over, you've gotta have a way to get from where you are, where you're going. Otherwise, migration to be super simple. People with five weeks of experience and a certification consult that problem. It's but how do you take what's existing migrated end without causing massive outages or cost of fronts? It's harder than it looks. >>Well, okay, I remember Corey a few years ago when I talk to customers that were using AWS. Ah, common complaint was we had to dedicate an engineer just to look at the finances of what's happening. One of the early episodes I did of Cloud Native Insights talked to a company that was embracing this term called Been Ops. We have the finance team and the engineering team, not just looking back at the last quarter, but planning understanding what the engineering impacts were going forward so that the developers, while they don't need tohave all the spreadsheets and everything else, they understand what they architect and what the impact will be on the finance side. What are you hearing from your customers out there? What guidance do you give from an organizational standpoint as to how they make sure that their bill doesn't get ridiculous? >>Well, the term fin ops is a bit of a red herring in there because people immediately equate it back to cloud ability before their app. Geo acquisitions where the fin ops foundation vendors are not allowed to join except us, and it became effectively a marketing exercise that was incredibly poorly executed in sort of poisoned the well. Now the finance foundations been handed off to the Cloud Native Beauty Foundation slash Lennox Foundation. Maybe that's going to be rehabilitated, but we'll have to find out. One argument I made for a while was that developers do not need to know what the economic model in the cloud is going to be. As a general rule, I would stand by that. Now someone at your company needs to be able to have those conversations of understanding the ins and outs of various costs models. At some point you hit a point of complexity we're bringing in. Experts solve specific problems because it makes sense. But every developer you have does not need to sit with 3 to 5 days course understanding the economics of the cloud. Most of what they need to know if it's on a business card, it's on an index card or something small that is carplay and consult business and other index ramos. But the point is, is great. Big things cost more than small things. You're not charged for what you use your charger for. What you forget to turn off and being able to predict your usage model in advance is important and save money. Data transfers Weird. There are a bunch of edge cases, little slice it and ribbons, but inbound data transfer is generally free. Outbound, generally Austin arm and a leg and architect accordingly. But by and large for most development product teams, it's built something and see if it works first. We can always come back later and optimize costs as you wind up maturing the product offering. >>Yeah, Cory, it's some of those sharp edges I've love learning about in your newsletter or some of your online activities there, such as you talked about those egress fees. I know you've got a nice diagram that helps explain if you do this, it costs a lot of money. If you do this, it's gonna cost you. It cost you a lot less money. Um, you know, even something like serverless is something that in general looks like. It should be relatively expensive, but if you do something wrong, it could all of a sudden cost you a lot of money. You feel that companies are having a better understanding so that they don't just one month say, Oh my God, the CFO called us up because it was a big mistake or, you know, where are we along that maturation of cloud being a little bit more predictable? >>Unfortunately, no. Where near I'd like us to be it. The story that I think gets missed is that when you're month over, month span is 20% higher. Finance has a bunch of questions, but if they were somehow 20% lower, they have those same questions. They're trying to build out predictive models that align. They're not saying you're spending too much money, although by the time the issues of the game, yeah, it's instead help us understand and predict what's happening now. Server less is a great story around that, because you can tie charges back to individual transactions and that's great. Except find me a company that's doing that where the resulting bill isn't hilariously inconsequential. A cloud guru Before they bought Lennox, I can't get on stage and talk about this. It serverless kind of every year, but how? They're spending $600 a month in Lambda, and they have now well, over 100 employees. Yeah, no one cares about that money. You can trace the flow of capital all you want, but it grounds up to No one cares at some point that changes. But there's usually going to be far bigger fish to front with their case, I would imagine, given, you know, stream video, they're probably gonna have some data transfer questions that come into play long before we talk about their compute. >>Yeah, um, what else? Cory, when you look at the innovation in the cloud, are there things that common patterns that you see that customers are missing? Some of the opportunities there? How does the customers that you talk to, you know, other than reading your newsletter, talking Teoh their systems integrator or partner? How are they doing it? Keeping up with just the massive amount of change that happens out >>there. Get customers. AWS employees follow the newsletter specifically to figure out what's going on. We've long since passed a Rubicon where I can talk incredibly convincingly about services that don't really exist. And Amazon employees won't call me out on the joke that I've worked in there because what the world could ever say that and then single. It's well beyond any one person's ability to keep it all in their head. So what? We're increasingly seeing even one provider, let alone the rest. Their events are outpacing them and no one is keeping up. And now there's the persistent, never growing worry that there's something that just came out that could absolutely change your business for the better. And you'll never know about it because you're too busy trying to keep up with all the other number. Every release the cloud provider does is important to someone but none of its important everyone. >>Yeah, Corey, that's such a good point. When you've been using tools where you understand a certain way of doing things, how do you know that there's not a much better way of doing it? So, yeah, I guess the question is, you know, there's so much out there. How do people make sure that they're not getting left behind or, you know, keep their their their understanding of what might be able to be used >>the right answer. There, frankly, is to pick a direction and go in it. You can wind up in analysis paralysis issues very easily. And if you talk about what you've done on the Internet, the number one responsible to get immediately is someone suggesting an alternate approach you could have taken on day one. There is no one path forward for any six, and you can second guess yourself that the problem is that you have to pick a direction and go in it. Make sure it makes sense. Make sure the lines talk to people who know what's going on in the space and validate it out. But you're going to come up with a plan right head in that direction, I assure you, you are probably not the only person doing it unless you're using. Route 53 is a database. >>You know, it's an interesting thing. Corey used to be said that the best time to start a project was a year ago. But you can't turn back time, so you should start it now. I've been saying for the last few years the best time to start something would be a year from now, so you can take advantage of the latest things, but you can't wait a year, so you need to start now. So how how do you make sure you maintain flexibility but can keep moving projects moving forward? E think you touched on that with some of the analysis paralysis, Anything else as to just how do you make sure you're actually making the right bets and not going down? Some, you know, odd tangent that ends up being a debt. >>In my experience, the biggest problem people have with getting there is that they don't stop first to figure out alright a year from now. If this project has succeeded or failed, how will we know they wind up building these things and keeping them in place forever, despite the fact that cost more money to run than they bring in? In many cases, it's figure out what success looks like. Figure out what failure looks like. And if it isn't working, cut it. Otherwise, you're gonna wind up, went into this thing that you've got to support in perpetuity. One example of that one extreme is AWS. They famously never turn anything off. Google on the other spectrum turns things off as a core competence. Most folks wind up somewhere in the middle, but understand that right now between what? The day I start building this today and the time that this one's of working down the road. Well, great. There's a lot that needs to happen to make sure this is a viable business, and none of that is going to come down to, you know, build it on top of kubernetes. It's going to come down. Is its solving a problem for your customers? Are people they're people in to pay for the enhancement. Anytime you say yes to that project, you're saying no to a bunch of others. Opportunity Cost is a huge thing. >>Yeah, so it's such an important point, Cory. It's so fundamental when you look at what what cloud should enable is, I should be able to try more things. I should be able to fail fast on, and I shouldn't have to think about, you know, some cost nearly as much as I would in the past. We want to give you the final word as you look out in the cloud. Any you know, practices, guidelines, you can give practitioners out there as to make sure that they are taking advantage of the innovation that's available out there on being able to move their company just a little bit faster. >>Sure, by and large, for the practitioners out there, if you're rolling something out that you do not understand, that's usually a red flag. That's been my problem, to be blunt with kubernetes or an awful lot of the use cases that people effectively shove it into. What are you doing? What if the business problem you're trying to solve and you understand all of its different ways that it can fail in the ways that will help you succeed? In many cases, it is stupendous overkill for the scale of problem most people are throwing. It is not a multi cloud answer. It is not the way that everyone is going to be doing it or they'll make fun of you under resume. Remember, you just assume your own ego. In this sense, you need to deliver an outcome. You don't need to improve your own resume at the expense of your employer's business. One would hope, >>Well, Cory, always a pleasure catching up with you. Thanks so much for joining me on the cloud. Native insights. Thank you. Alright. Be sure to check out silicon angle dot com if you click on the cloud. There's a whole second for cloud Native insights on your host to minimum. And I look forward to hearing more from you and your cloud Native insights Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of next level network experience event brought to you by Info blocks Hi ups to Minuteman and welcome to the Cube's coverage of the info blocks virtual event. Digging into the next level networking experience. I'm here with John Furrier, who is the host of the event. John. We've been talking about next level networking for for a few years now. Everything's multi cloud cloud native SAS adoption, really transforming the way that we have to think about networking. Tell us a little bit about this event. >>So as you know, yeah, again go back years from when member VM Ware bought in a sexual like Okay, you know that's going to change the game software to find networking. And we love that. We were all riffing on program ability. You saw the Dev Ops trajectory hitting networking. We would say that's where the action is on this event really kind of speaks to Info Blocks as a company which is really well known for DNS. I mean, they had cricket. Liu Stuart Bailey, that really kind of the pioneers in DNS and security have constantly been adding innovation to it, but DNS is one of those things where it's kind of like not thought about, but it runs everywhere, runs the web. It is critical infrastructure and, you know D HCP. We all know what that is. We have a home router, and then he got I p address management. These have been traditionally different things for enterprises, and everyone has it. They got to deal with it. And it's really, ultimately the location and how things resolved and connect. So you know, it really becomes a foundational opportunity to figure out where the access is not only a remote access, but security. So we had a great bunch of guests looking at looking at the info blocks. Next level networking, because they bought, had an acquisition, a Cube alumni snap route recently, and this caught our attention because they were doing Cloud Native. And one of the guests we had was Glenn Sullivan. He was the founder of Snap Route. He was the the guy who did all the Siri work for Apple. So this guy knows large scale of those cloud native We had kuna Sunni, who's the runs? Corporate development in all of the products for info blocks. He kind of went into the strategy of how they're taking the I won't say boring DNs, but the critical infrastructure of DNS and how they're extending the functionality with an abstraction layer around D D I, which is DNS DCP and management. And then we had some great guests on there. We had a Craig Sanderson from info blocks. He's on there. You'll hear from him. He talked about the security and then finally a customer who's running a big school district who, with Covert 19 exposes all these challenges around what has been called the borderless enterprise. So really, next level is that, you know, how do you deal with all this stuff? And that's been a big issue. So we're gonna unpack all that in this virtual event. We have four great interviews, and so it's going to be a great program. >>Yeah, John, as you said it to some of those foundational pieces of how network is done, a lot of times runs, you know, under the radar, something you don't need to think about. But all of these changes, as we said, you know my data. My network is now highly distributed, especially I would expect that the impact of the global pandemic and work from home are really causing even more of these challenges and to think about distributed infrastructure even more. So what are some of the themes we should be looking for here? How much of them kind of tie into what we've been talking about the last couple of years in some of these cloud native worlds? >>That's great questions to I'll get into some of the themes of the program, but you brought up the covert 19 again. We've been talking about this in our reporting. You've been doing a ton of interviews following all your your stuff as well as well as all of our team. Covert 19 really exposes the aspect of critical infrastructure, and to me it's like it's the It's the great I o T experiment happening in real time. It's forcing companies saying, Hey, the work. The future of work is about workplace. The location is now home workforce. Are the people emotional? They want ease of use. They want a different experience. They're all not in the office workloads and work flows. All of them have the common word working it so I think over 19 exposes this what I call I o t experiment because everyone is now borderless. It changes the game and really puts the pressure on security network access. And ultimately, you know, the bad guys are out there so you could have someone a teacher at home or a worker at home, and they get some malware attack and they're not sophisticated, zoom or whatever they're using for tools. All that's changed and they're vulnerable. So this brings up a huge networking challenge from whether even VP ends or even relevant or not to everything. So, to me, that is a huge point. You're gonna hear that throughout the commentary that that's kind of teased out. But the real things about innovation around the cloud you're gonna hear info blocks and they're experts talk about what they're doing and how they see cloud scale and cloud native integrating into an older paradigm like DNS. And to me, that's the That's the evolution of this DD I concept. That's an abstraction layer that creates innovation opportunities but also takes away a lot of the complexities around managing all the DNS things out there and again, that's the access of the network. It's a it's a place of truth is really kind of low level, but it's really foundational. So to me, that's the main theme. And customers want ease of use into it, whether they're at home or not, and replacing the old ways to putting a box out there. That's the way it was, DNs DNs. People would manage it all. Now they want to have it provisioned, managed a manage service cloud Native Cloud operations because it's only gonna get has to get that way. >>Yeah, it's interesting, John. You know, we watched the whole wave of software defined impact networking. I think of a company like Info blocks. They've been around for decades. They're dominant in the space is that they play in. Traditionally, it would have been an appliance that you thought of for their environment you talked about. They now have the snapper out acquisition as part of what they're doing. So it just what should we be looking for? What are they really the main point? That Info Box wants to bring people together for this next level networking experience? >>Well, Glenn Sullivan was one of my favorite discussions, and he's been on. He's a cube alumni and he's so smart. He came again from Apple. He knows that he knows what large scale looks like. Snap route was really early and was one of those technologies that just, you know, it has the core DNs built in kubernetes built in. They were doing some pretty aggressive, I would call it for lack of a better word kubernetes on bare metal. They were doing stuff, but really super cool kubernetes you combine that with DNS and info blocks actually has the core DNs that's actually in every kubernetes of in the CN CF. So everything that comes out of the CN CF from a core DNS standpoint is info blocks. So yeah, they're definitely relevant in the whole CNC of Cloud Native foundation, effort around cloud native. And as that scales just micro services, you're gonna have to have this new abstraction layer and also be compatible with automation. So that's, um, we didn't go into the weeds on that, but that was essentially the head room for all the different conversations roles of cloud native and open source technologies enabling borderless enterprises because you got to have the operation side and you got to have the program ability. So you start to get into the true dev ops that we used to riff on all the time. You know, move fast, break stuff to don't break anything. Right? So ops, ops and Dev have to come together. This is where the winners and losers of networking will be determined. You gotta provide the enablement for developers, but you gotta provide the stability of an operational checklist. >>Yeah, John, I guess the last question I want to ask you before we get to the guests, You know, that operational change, You know, we saw for so many years it was, Oh, all the networking people, they're going to have to learn to code up weight. Dev ops is actually gonna spreading the information around. And maybe I won't need a particular networking team. But we understand when things go wrong, you've gotta have somebody with the expertise that could be able to dig in. What are you know, who should be listening to this? What are some of those organizational implications for what you're talking about with info blocks? >>That's a great point. I mean, the biggest challenge that I see in all this entire digital transformation as it starts to get down into the cloud native world is, most people are asking the wrong questions. They don't even know what they're talking about When it comes down to trying to compare an apple to an orange, they're really kind of disconnected on language. You got server people in networking. We know that they have different languages, and working together is key. When you think about something like DNS, that's a technical. That's an operator that's an I t person, that someone who's running critical infrastructure. But when you start to think about the security aspect of it, it's a CSO conversation. So what I'm seeing come out of this that's critical, is when you start to get into this cloud native world. You have more stakeholders in the value proposition of all this and with covert 19. As I pointed out, you know you got hacks and you got security. So when you talk with security, that's up and down the organization. That's the CSO down to the teams themselves. We have about automation horizontally scaling with Dev ops. That's multiple teams, so you have an integration kind of stakeholders. You know DNS servers, all networking. All these people have to kind of come together. So the people who should watch this are the people who are concerned about scaling the modern enterprise, which is borderless, which is code word for multiple access points and multiple connection points. R i o t um, how do you make that work? And that's the real challenge. So it's kind of like an I t a person who wants to figure out where the puck will be so they could be there when it's there and skate to where the puck is, as we say, and and the CSO of the senior people have to understand that DNS cannot be overlooked because whether it's a managed service. So So Cloudflare had a huge out into the DNS. Setting DNS takes down everything. So it's ah, it's the most fertile ground and the most targeted ground for attacks, and that is well understood. So getting the right questions in place foundational we had to set up the modern enterprise, and then that's going to be a construct for the cloud native architecture and ultimately the developer environment. So yeah, it's a topic that's kind of nerdy with DNS, But it has implications across digital transformation. >>Jonah expecting lots of conversations around security and automation how they tie into all of the modern and modernization themes. Absolutely some pieces that shouldn't be left behind. All right, John Ferrier, Thanks so much for helping us kick off. Really interested. Make sure to stick with us off to listen to all the guest interviews here that John has done the info blocks. Next level networking experience. Instrument, man. And thank you for watching the Cube. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(upbeat music) >> From New York City, it's theCUBE. Covering "Welcome To The New Edge." Brought to you by Pensando Systems. >> Hey, welcome back here ready. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We are high atop Goldman Sachs in downtown Manhattan, I think it's 43 floors, for a really special event. It's the Pensando launch. It's really called welcome to the new edge and we talked about technology. We had some of the founders on but, these type of opportunities are really special to talk to some really senior leaders and we're excited to have John Chambers back on, who as you know, historic CEO of Cisco for many, many years. Has left that, is doing his own ventures he's writing books, he's investing and he's, happens to be chairman of the board of Pensando. So John, thanks for taking a few minutes with us. >> Well, more than a few minutes, I think what we talked about today is a major industry change and so to focus on that and focus about the implications will be a lot of fun. >> So let's jump into it. So, one of the things you led with earlier today was kind of these 10 year cycles and they're not exactly 10 years, but you outlined a series of them from mainframe, mini client server everybody knows kind of the sequence. What do you think it is about the 10 year kind of cycle besides the fact that it's easy and convenient for us to remember, that, kind of paces these big disruptions? >> Well, I think it has to do with once a company takes off they tend to, dominate that segment of the industry for so long that even if a creative idea came up they were just overpowering. And then toward the end of a 10 year cycle they quit reinventing themselves. And we talked earlier about the innovator's dilemma and the implications for it. Or an architecture that was designed that suddenly can't go to the next level. So I think it's probably a combination of three or four different factors, including the original incumbent who broke the glass, disrupted others, not disrupting themselves. >> Right, but you also talked about a story where you had to shift focus based on some customer feedback and you ran Cisco for a lot longer than 10 years. So how do you as a leader kind of keep your ears open to something that's a disruptive change that's not your regular best customer and your regular best salesman asking for a little bit faster, a little bit cheaper, a little bit of more the same versus the significant disruptive transformational shift? >> Well this goes back to one of my most basic views in life is I think we learn more from our setbacks or setbacks we were part of, or even the missteps or mistakes than you ever do your successes. Everybody loves to talk about successes and I'm no different there. But when you watched a great state like West Virginia that was the chemical center of the world and the coal mining center of the world, the 125,000 coal mines, six miners very well paid, 6,000 of the top engineers in the world, it was the Silicon Valley of the chemical industry and those just disappear. And because our state did not reinvent itself, because the education system didn't change, because we didn't distract attract a new set of businesses in we just kept doing the right thing too long, we got left behind. Then I went to Boston, it was the Silicon Valley of the world. And Route 128 around Boston was symbolic with the Silicon Valley and I-101 and 280 around it. And we had the top university at that time. Much like Stanford today, but MIT generating new companies. We had great companies, DEC, Wang, Data General. Probably a million jobs in the area and because we got stuck in a segment of the market, quit listening to our customers and missed the transitions, not only did we lose probably 1.2 million jobs on it, 100,000 out of DEC, 32,000 out of Wang, etc, we did not catch the next generation of technology changes. So I understand the implications if you don't disrupt yourself. But I also learned, that if you're not regularly reinventing yourself, you get left behind as a leader. And one of my toughest competitors came up to me and said, "John, I love the way you're reinventing Cisco "and how you've done that multiple times." And then I turned and I said "That's why a CEO has got to be in the job "for more than four or five years" and he said, "Now we disagree again." Which we usually did and he said, "Most people can't reinvent themselves." And he said "I'm an example." "I'm a pretty good CEO" he's actually a very good CEO, but he said, "After I've been there three or four years "I've made the changes, that I know "I've got to go somewhere else." And he could see I didn't buy-in and then he said, "How many of your top 100 people "you've been happy with once they've been "in the job for more than five years?" I hesitated and I said "Only one." And he's right, you've got to move people around, you've got to get people comfortable with disruption on it and, the hardest one to disrupt are the companies or the leaders who've been most successful and yet, that's when you got to think about disruption. >> Right, so to pivot on that a little bit in terms of kind of the government's role in jobs, specifically. >> Yes. >> We're in this really strange period of time. We have record low unemployment, right, tiny, tiny unemployment, and yet, we see automation coming in aggressively with autonomous vehicles and this and that and just to pick truck drivers as a category, everyone can clearly see that autonomous vehicles are going to knock them out in the not too distant future. That said, there's more demand for truck drivers today than there's every been and they can't fill the positions So, with this weird thing where we're going to have a bunch of new jobs that are created by technology, we're going to have a bunch of old jobs that get displaced by technology, but those people aren't necessarily the same people that can leave the one and go to the other. So as you look at that challenge, and I know you work with a lot of government leaders, how should they be thinking about taking on this challenge? >> Well, I think you've got to take it on very squarely and let's use the U.S. as an example and then I'll parallel what France is doing and what India is doing that is actually much more creative that what we are, from countries you wouldn't have anticipated. In the U.S. we know that 50% of the Fortune 500 will probably not exist in 10 years, 12 at the most. We know that the large companies will not incrementally hire people over this next decade and they've often been one of the best sources of hiring because of AI and automation will change that. So, it's not just a question of being schooled in one area and move to another, those jobs will disappear within the companies. If we don't have new jobs in startups and if we don't have the startups running at about three to four times the current volumes, we've got a real problem looking out five to 10 years. And the startups where everyone thinks we're doing a good job, the app user, third to a half of what they were two decades ago. And so if you need 25 million jobs over this next decade and your startups are at a level more like they were in the 90s, that's going to be a challenge. And so I think we've got to think from the government perspective of how we become a startup nation again, how we think about long-term job creation, how we think about job creation not taking money out of one pocket and give it to another. People want a real job, they want to have a meaningful job. We got to change our K through 12 education system which is broken, we've got to change our university system to generate the jobs for where people are going and then we've got to retrain people. That is very doable, if you got at it with a total plan and approach it from a scale perspective. That was lacking. And one of the disappointing things in the debate last night, and while I'm a republican I really want who's going to really lead us well both at the presidential level, but also within the senate, the house. Is, there was a complete lack of any vision on what the country should look like 10 years from now, and how we're going to create 25 million jobs and how we're going to create 10 million more that are going to be displaced and how we're going to re-educate people for it. It was a lot of finger pointing and transactional, but no overall plan. Modi did the reverse in India, and actually Macron, in all places, in France. Where they looked at GDP growth, job creation, startups, education changes, etc, and they executed to an overall approach. So, I'm looking for our government really to change the approach and to really say how are we going to generate jobs and how are we going to deal with the issues that are coming at us. It's a combination of all the the above. >> Yep. Let's shift gears a little bit about the education system and you're very involved and you talked about MIT. Obviously, I think Stanford and Cal are such big drivers of innovation in the Bay area because smart people go there and they don't leave. And then there's a lot of good buzz now happening in Atlanta as an investment really piggy-backing on Georgia Tech, which also creates a lot of great engineers. As you look at education, I don't want to go through K through 12, but more higher education, how do you see that evolving in today's world? It's super expensive, there's tremendous debt for the kids coming out, it doesn't necessarily train them for the new jobs. >> Where the jobs are. >> How do you see, kind of the role of higher education and that evolving into kind of this new world in which we're headed? >> Well, the good news and bad news about when I look at successful startups around the world, they're always centered around a innovative university and it isn't just about the raw horse power of the kids, It starts with the CEO of the university, the president of the university, their curriculum, their entrepreneurial approach, do they knock down the barriers across the various groups from engineering to business to law, etc? And are they thinking out of box? And if you watch, there is a huge missing piece between, Georgia Tech more of an exception, but still not running at the level they need to. And the Northeast around Boston and New York and Silicon Valley, The rest of the country's being left behind. So I'm looking for universities to completely redo their curriculum. I'm looking for it really breaking down the silos within the groups and focus on the outcomes. And much like Steve Case has done a very good job on focusing, about the Rust Belt and how do you do startups? I'm going to learn from what I saw in France at Polytechnique and the ITs in India, and what occurred in Stanford and MIT used to occur is, you've got to get the universities to be the core and that's where they kids want to stay close to, and we've got to generate a whole different curriculum, if you will, in the universities, including, continuous learning for their graduates, to be able to come back virtually and say how do I learn about re-skilling myself? >> Yeah. >> The current model is just not >> the right model >> It's broken. >> For the, for going forward. >> K through 12 is >> hopelessly broken >> Yeah. >> and the universities, while were still better than anywhere else in the world, we're still teaching, and some of the teachers and some of the books are what I could have used in college. >> Right, right >> So, we got to rethink the whole curriculum >> darn papers on the inside >> disrupt, disrupt >> So, shifting gears a little bit, you, played with lots of companies in your CEO role you guys did a ton of M&A, you're very famous for the successful M&A that you did over a number of years, but in an investor role, J2 now, you're looking at a more early stage. And you said you made a number of investments which is exciting. So, as you evaluate opportunities A. In teams that come to pitch to you >> Yeah. >> B. What are the key things you look for? >> In the sequence you've raised them, first in my prior world, I was really happy to do 180 acquisitions, in my current world, I'm reversed, I want them to go IPO. Because you add 76% of your headcount after an IPO, or after you've become a unicorn. When companies are bought, including what I bought in my prior role, their headcount growth is pretty well done. We'd add engineers after that, but would blow them through our sales channel, services, finance, etc. So, I want to see many more of these companies go public, and this goes back to national agenda about getting IPO's, not back to where they were during the 90's when it was almost two to three times, what you've seen over the last decade. But probably double, even that number the 90's, to generate the jobs we want. So, I'm very interested now about companies going public in direction. To the second part of your question, on what do I look for in startups and why, if I can bridge it, to am I so faired up about Pensando? If I look for my startups and, it's like I do acquisitions, I develop a playbook, I run that playbook faster and faster, it's how I do digitization of countries, etc. And so for a area I'm going to invest in and bet on, first thing I look at, is their market, technology transition, and business model transition occurring at the same time. That was Amazon of 15 years ago as an example. The second thing I look at, is the CEO and ideally, the whole founding team but it's usually just the CEO. The third thing I look for, is what are the customers really say about them? There's only one Steve Jobs, and it took him seven years. So, I go to the customers and say "What do you really think of this company?" Fourth thing I look for, is how close to an inflection point are they. The fifth thing I look for, is what they have in their ecosystem. Are they partnering? Things of that type. So, if I were to look at Pensando, Which is really the topic about can they bring to the market the new edge in a way that will be a market leading force for a whole decade? Through a ecosystem of partners that will change business dramatically and perhaps become the next major tech icon. It's how well you do that. Their vision in terms of market transitions, and business transitions 100% right. We've talked about it, 5G, IOT, internet of things, going from 15 billion devices to 500 billion devices in probably seven years. And, with the movement to the edge the business models will also change. And this is where, democratization, the cloud, and people able to share that power, where every technology company becomes a business becomes a, every business company becomes a technology company. >> Right. >> The other thing I look at is, the team. This is a team of six people, myself being a part of it, that thinks like one. That is so unusual, If you're lucky, you get a CEO and maybe a founder, a co-founder. This team, you've got six people who've worked together for over 20 years who think alike. The customers, you heard the discussions today. >> Right. >> And we've not talked to a single cloud player, a single enterprise company, a single insurance provider, or major technology company who doesn't say "This is very unique, let's talk about "how we work together on it." The inflection point, it's now you saw that today. >> Nobody told them it's young mans game obviously, they got the twenty-something mixed up >> No, actually were redefining (laughs) twenty-something, (laughs) but it does say, age is more perspective on how you think. >> Right, right. >> And Shimone Peres, who, passed away unfortunately, two years ago, was a very good friend. He basically said "You've got all your life "to think like a teenager, "and to really think and dream out of box." And he did it remarkably well. So, I think leaders, whether their twenty-something, or twenty-some years of experience working you've got to think that way. >> Right. So I'm curious, your take on how this has evolved, because, there was data and there was compute. And networking brought those two thing together, and you were at the heart of that. >> Mm-hmm. Now, it's getting so much more complex with edge, to get your take on edge. But, also more importantly exponential growth. You've talked about going from, how ever many millions the devices that were connected, to the billions of devices that are connected now. How do you stay? How do you help yourself think along exponential curves? Because that is not easy, and it's not human. But you have to, if you're going to try to get ahead of that next wave. >> Completely agree. And this is not just for me, how do I do it? I'm sharing it more that other people can learn and think about it perhaps the same way. The first thing is, it's always good to think of the positive, You can change the world here, the positive things, But I've also seen the negatives we talked about earlier. If you don't think that way, if you don't think that way as a leader of your company, leader of your country, or the leader of a venture group you're going to get left behind. The implications for it are really bad. The second is, you've got to say how do you catch and get a replicable playbook? The neat thing about what were talking about, whether it's by country in France, or India or the U.S., we've got replicable playbooks we know what to run. The third element is, you've got to have the courage to get outside your comfort zone. And I love change when it happens to you, I don't like it when it happens to me And I know that, So, I've got to get people around me who push me outside my comfort zone on that. And then, you've got to be able to dream and think like that teenager we talked about before. But that's what we were just with a group of customers, who were at this event. And they were asking "How do we get "this innovation into our company?" "How do we get the ability to innovate, through not just strategic partnerships with other large companies or partnerships with startups?" But "How do we build that internally?" It's comes down to the leader has to create that image and that approach. Modi's done it for 1.3 billion people in India. A vision, of the future on GDP growth. A digital country, startups, etc. If they can do it for 1.3 billion, tell me why the U.S. can not do it? (laughs) And why even small states here, can't do it. >> Yeah. Shifting gears a little bit, >> All right. >> A lot of black eyes in Silicon Valley right now, a lot of negativity going on, a lot of problems with privacy and trading data for currency and, it's been a rough road. You're way into tech for good and as you said, you can use technology for good you can use technology for bad. What are some things you're doing on the tech for good side? Because I don't think it gets the spotlight that it probably should, because it doesn't sell papers. >> Well, actually the press has been pretty good we just need to do it more on scale. Going back to Cisco days, we never had any major issues with governments. Even though there was a Snowden issue, there were a lot of implications about the power of the internet. Because we work with governments and citizens to say "What are the legitimate needs so that everybody benefits from this?" And where the things that we might have considered doing that, governments felt strongly about or the citizens wouldn't prosper from we just didn't do it. And we work with democrats and republicans alike and 90% of our nation believed tech was for good. But we worked hard on that. And today, I think you got to have more companies doing this and then, what, were doing uniquely in JC2, is were literally partnering with France on tech is for good and I'm Macron's, global tech ambassador and we focus about job creation and inclusion. Not just in Paris, or around Station F but throughout all the various regions in the country. Same thing within India, across 26 different states with Modi on how do you drive it through? And then if we can do it in France or India why can't we do it in each state in the U.S.? Partnering with West Virginia, with a very creative, president of the university there West Virginia University. With the democrats and republicans in their national senate, but also within the governor and speaker of the house and the president and senate within West Virginia, and really saying were going to change it together. And getting a model that you can then cookie cut across the U.S. if you change the curriculum, to your earlier comments. If you begin to focus on outcomes, not being an expert in one area, which is liable not to have a job >> Right. >> Ten years later. So, I'm a dreamer within that, but I think you owe an obligation to giving back, and I think they're all within our grasps >> Right >> And I think you can do, the both together. I think at JC2 we can create a billion dollar company with less than 10 people. I think you can change the world and also make a very good profit. And I think technology companies have to get back to that, you got to create more jobs than you destroy. And you can't be destroying jobs, then telling other people how to live their lives and what their politics should be. >> Yeah. >> That just doesn't work in terms of the environment. >> Well John, again, thanks for your time. Give you the last word on >> Sure >> Account of what happened here today, I mean you're here, and Tony O'Neary was here or at the headquarters of Goldman. A flagship launch customer, for the people that weren't here today why should they be paying attention? >> Well, if we've got this market transition right, the technology and business model, the next transition will be everything goes to the edge. And as every company or every government, or every person has to be both good in their "Area of expertise." or their vertical their in, they've got to also be good in technology. What happened today was a leveling of the playing field as it relates to cloud. In terms of everyone should have choice, democratization there, but also in architecture that allows people to really change their business models, as everything moves to the edge where 75% of all transactions, all data will be had and it might even be higher than that. Secondly, you saw a historic first never has anybody ever emerged from stealth after only two and a half years of existing as a company, with this type of powerhouse behind them. And you saw the players where you have a customer, Goldman Sachs, in one of the most leading edge areas, of industry change which is obviously finance leading as the customer who's driven our direction from the very beginning. And a company like NetApp, that understood the implication on storage, from two and a half years ago and drove our direction from the very beginning. A company like HP Enterprise's, who understood this could go across their whole company in terms of the implications, and the unique opportunity to really change and focus on, how do they evolve their company to provide their customer experience in a very unique way? How do you really begin to think about Equinix in terms of how they changed entirely from a source matter prospective, what they have to do in terms of the direction and capabilities? And then Lightspeed, one of the most creative intra capital that really understands this transition saying "I want to be a part of this." Including being on the board and changing the world one more time. So, what happened today? If we're right, I think this was the beginning of a major inflection point as everything moves to the edge. And how ecosystem players, with Pensando at the heart of that ecosystem, can take on the giants but also really use this technology to give everybody choice, and how they really make a difference in the future. As well as, perhaps give back to society. >> Love it. Thank you John >> My pleasure, that was fun. >> Appreciate it. You're John, I'm Jeff you're watching theCUBE. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>lie from Copenhagen, Denmark. >>It's the >>Q covering Nutanix dot Next 2019. Brought to you by >>Nutanix. Welcome back, everyone to the cubes. Live coverage of Nutanix. Stop! Next here in Copenhagen, Denmark. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, coasting along side of stew minimum. Of course. We're joined by Regime Mirani. He is the CTO clad platforms at Nutanix. Thank you so much for coming on the Cubans. You need >>to be here as usual. >>So you were up on the main stage talking about your guiding force. Your mission to make enterprise computing so reliable, so ubiquitous that it's invisible. >>You don't think about >>it. You don't even get a little No, I mean, look, >>if you look at any successful technology, consumer technology doesn't need to be aware of the details around it, right? I mean, take cars, even because the first introduced you probably had to understand Rick operate. There was how it all works. Remember for water in the radiator. But most people don't know how to do that today. I wouldn't know how to do that today, even though my Utah actually had to do some of those things. Um, that isn't the point. of the cars or self driving. Now the same thing should happen to computing. And we spend way too much time today just doing things that keep the light. Don't nights on. Just imagine infrastructure patching things up, grading them. I really should be something that not what idea is doing i d should be focusing on the business, delivering applications that their customers need and not so much on managing infrastructure. >>Rajiv, that one click Simplicity is so important, yet we know things are becoming even more complicated. Bring us inside a little bit that you know, you've got 14,000 customers. Guess and there's been a major, basically rewrite of a less to be able to be ready for all of the new ash cloud Native envy me obtained, you know, you name it all of these things. How do you balance getting all of this new stuff up with making sure that you keep that simplicity and don't make things for all of your customers while all the jet engines, uh, you know, >>it takes constant effort. It takes a conscious effort to make sure that things are in drifting away from our goal of being simple and to be frank. At times it has and you know, we periodically to audits off all our work floors. Make sure that as simple as you think they are and haven't drifted over time. And occasionally we do find some rail clunkers and have to go back and fix those things. What >>makes it >>different is that we start with a fairly opinionated view on how things should be done. The idea is to make it simple for 99% of the people, while still offering the all that washed options of one person power users would need them and making sure that we understand what 90% 99% of people need. And focusing on that is very important to a lot of customer focus study sort of design reviews, but also this constant going back and you're taking work feel like we m creation like provisioning of'em. When he started, it was pretty simple right then, as we started adding more and more options eyes, this thing going to use a PC I passed through isn't going to use this option. That option suddenly realized that now they're 30 things that people are feeling into provisional we have, most of which nobody cares I care about. So you go back, read I tte keep doing that again and again and again. >>So rich Eve It's one thing when you talk about living on different servers, whether it be super micro underneath or Delhi Emcee Lenovo H p e. It's >>gonna be a >>little bit different if you're talking about where you're going with H p E Green Lake with, you know, the X in AWS that you talk about when I talk to people, you know, it's like, Oh, I'm trying to use terror form and you know, But I have to write it. One way to work with Amazon. I have to write it another way. If it's, you know, azure G C P S o. You know, will Nutanix be able to keep that simplicity and bring, you know, homogeneity to thes dispersed invite? >>Absolutely. So the point is, watch a layer of abstraction right the way we are going to public cloud away we go every server winter out the way of doing things and sigh all if it starts with the hyper wiser and the story of stock and networking with three layers of abstraction. And if you have the same three components everywhere, everything we built on top of that remains exactly the same. Prison was the same on a P S. On the same. Everything looks the same. So higher level constructs like calm and so on don't have to be aware of what the actual substrate is creating a calm blueprint, whether it works on ZAY on AWS or whether Trump's on SX or whether runs on Nutanix H way. The blue blueprint remains exactly the same. Now, if you want to consume more, service is if you want to consume. So this is an Amazon, which are not available on premises. You want to use things like auto scaling groups in Ec2. Sure, you could then create blueprints that our customers we're putting in the substrate. >>So, in terms of this, you said, you start with a very opinionated place of where the customer is well, First of all, it's based on customer feedback and customer surveys. And so where were are you right now in terms of where the customer is? Are you meeting the customer now, or is the customer ahead or what? Where would you describe that? I think it >>depends on what you're looking at. If you're looking at the core products, absolutely, the customers are with us. They were ready to consume. They actually drive a lot of the innovation that we're doing. We're feeding, feeding back changes that we could be doing to make things even simpler on the private cloud side that's getting there. I think we get a lot off feedback on files on on present pro on com on on Flow because those have started getting a lot of adoption in the market, and we do get a lot of feedback on them on. So our newer products that you started a war being more recently, it's a more collaborative process. There were actually working with customers directly understanding their problems on dhe, moving a roadmap forward based on that. So while it's early in terms off adoption in production, the whole process is very collaborative in those situations. So we really are very close to the customers there. >>What are some of the biggest customer problems right now that they're facing what's what's keeping them up at night and therefore keeping you up at night? >>Security is always a big one. Complexity, people skills. All those things are big problems. In fact, one of the biggest things like that was just training enough people to handle all the complexity in a data set. Is the Morrigan removed from that? The more they don't have to focus on that, the easier you make their lives. The other thing is just a lot of time to spend on routine activities which, which acquired disruption to service is right. This is something we've talked about before. Why does it Why does it require a legacy three tier system to have maintenance windows and downtime to do an upgrade? Google our has downtime. Google is never down for maintenance. Doesn't mean they're not already there waiting all the time. So how do we bring that same kind of capabilities on premises that's gonna focus our long power? >>So, Rajiv, when I'm talking to users out there, when they talk about all of the items that are out there that they need to deal with and the routine task automation is something keeps, you know, coming up. So tell us where automation fits into some of the new things that you were talking about today in this week with your customer? >>Yeah, automation >>for us. Waking automation in three steps anything that's automatic better be safe. First of all, safety is paramount. Started security. It has to be simple, and we talked about how calm provides for that. And then you can start adding in this new wave off technologies around artificial intelligence and machine learning. And it's not so much about automation right now. It's all gone to me. It's it's autonomous operations, not just scripts. That due to a task on dhe, that's >>an area >>we invested in very heavily early on with our prison pro product way, build our own patented or thumbs for machine learning applied them to operational metrics like capacity planning. And what if modeling and dynamic alerts and what we've been doing with that is extending that more into the application layer so that not only can you apply these algorithms to CP when memory, we can actually get insights into Hey, the Leighton see on this particular application looks somewhat unusual, or the amount of cash available on a sequel server is unusually low and act on those, and the other part is acting on on alert. Something happens. There's a human being need to get in wall to solve for that. And if it does, then well, it's not really automatic. Right? So that's the other part that we introduce, which is a cross for a product which lets you define these action chains that automatically, uh, what about to be triggered when Annie went on alert takes place, they can go ahead and fix the problem. But also, you know, simple things like send your slack notification or an email locked. They went, maybe create a snapshot of your wee am so that you could go back and be back problems later. All that sort of thing made really, really simple. >>Yes, it goes back to the simplicity and the invisibility to this. >>Yes, yes. Uh, autonomous data centers, by definition, have to be invisible, right? If if if If you're to get involved in marriage and autonomous Data center, then what's the plane? It's a point. Exactly. So the whole idea is that, uh, human involvement in day to day operations against solo that everybody's focused on applications on line of business use cases. >>Rajiv, when it when it comes to those applications. You know, you talked about some of the new enhancements like envy me on and obtain, You know, Where are your customers today? You know, Are there any interesting applications that you're seeing them deploying today? Ah, Pattern. I've talked about the last couple of years of the Nutanix show, is modernized the platform and then modernized the absolute top of it. Things like container ization. I'm sure to bell curve in a journey where all the customers But you know, what are some of the patterns that air starting emergen where they finding success? >>Yeah, This >>whole wave off new applications around data pipelines with Kafka spark things like that Apache stack effectively which are putting more more off load on storage in particular. So that's that's one area. We see customers looking for more performance. But >>even, >>you know, some of the traditional ah traditional uh, applications like ASAP Hana and epic and meditate expanse. They also have patterns which can benefit greatly with some of that wants wants that we have been making and gets a technical issue. No, The size of the working said with it all fits and car and on sst was spitting on magnetic drives. But something like we've been doing is moving the overheads. If you do have a miss and you go to slow a media, you still get good performance. And that's really how we're getting good to the new. >>Well, yeah, maybe without getting, you know, we don't need to go drill down into the core of the intel chip everything. But you know, Nutanix doesn't just take off the shelf stuff and, you know, put a box together. It's software, and there's work that happens with your partners in the ecosystem. Give us a little flavor as toe. You know where you're making the investments and where some of those partnerships and integrations or a key? >>Yeah, So on the platform side, Ah, a lot of the investments happen in validation of the platforms, making sure that we're ahead of the curve in adopting technologies but also feeding back from our side things we would like to see in the platform. Right? So how do you adapt things like R d m A. To handle not just the traditional work with the happy converge workload? How do you essentially look for things in this new class? of memories that would benefit from data locality for us. So that's one class off partnership that we have the hardware vendors with GHB, with Intel, with the IBM, a whole bunch of people. But >>then >>we also have partnerships up the stock these days with companies like service. Now, with we for backup for for our mind product. I think you saw a little bit of that today. It's a whole bunch of things happening across all areas. >>One of the things that it really comes across at this conference is just how strong Nutanix culture is. The company culture, the humble, honest, hungry and another word that's creeping in now is resilient. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about your division of the company and describe how the company's resilience, the employees and the company itself has really displayed itself. >>So, you know, as it any company you know, Any time you go through the kind of growth we have, there's the forward momentum that everybody sees. They also a lot of setbacks that people don't really see, and they've been a whole bunch of us off these in our history. They've been areas where literally. The product has has a floor which is so fundamental we call it internally a near death experience. What's really great until again, from an engineering point of yours, how the teams come together at that point instead of these war rooms, even working weekends, Everybody's there. Everybody's on it and nobody talks about. Hey, look, where's my work? Life? Balance of things like that, especially when they're the customer in world. If there's if there's a problem that's causing customers outages, our engineers will give up everything. They'll give up everything and not just at work with their lives to make sure that gets fixed. And that has helped us get Basti setbacks get back in stride. Happens last Now. It used to happen a lot earlier, but spill this real culture resilience from the big *** in the early engineers. >>All right, Rajiv, what's exciting? You going forward? You know you don't have to touch on this one. But you know, when I saw at the end, the site clusters and hibernate feature was something that was like, Oh, yeah. I don't think I've seen that as to how I could make sure I save my data be ableto, you know, Shut things down. Maybe start there. But give us You know what a little bit. Look forward as to where the team's playing. >>Now, that's kind of, >>you know, thinking that detail thing that you have to do. What, you want to launch a new product, right? Okay, look, the whole point of doing doings, I clusters on Amazon. One of the biggest use cases. This cloud bursting cloud busting is not just about increasing your workload size, scaling it up at some point, you want to scale it down? How do you do that for state for work? Stateless. It's easy. All I'm registering Web servers over that sort of my way, they're gone. But our database that I scaled out over there well, that data can't go away. So we had to find ways to essentially solve for those from. So that's how the hibernate feature came around in general, The bigger question that you asked about, You know what I'm most excited about? I >>think this >>whole convergence of private and public cloud with same stack on both sides is a new new tank. It really hasn't existed before. Um, the father applications can now move back and forth seamlessly between public cloud and private cloud without rewriting without re factoring without a big lift and shift is very, very interesting. But by itself, it's not enough. Um, the flip that's missing is what about data movement? What about if you have your data and Amazon and I want to move it on premises? That there really are no good solutions of the Amazon doesn't give you a P eyes on dhe the tools to do that. So I think data movement's gonna be a big thing. And then Billy, a common service's tack on board because it's not just networking, storage in and compute anymore, right? If you're an Amazon, you're probably using all kinds off. Networking service is security groups. Ah, Route 53. How do you take those kind of service is and also make them available on premises. >>So, Rajiv, is there anything you've learned as a team when you look at AWS outposts or Oracle clouded customer, we've had a few years of talking about, but not a lot of deployments yet, so, you know, not saying you're late to the market, but you know what would have been able to sit back and learn from what has been done so far. >>So the >>reason we >>a little bit late to the market is that we think of solving a problem which the other windows are not, Which is kind of what I alluded to before that is that how do you support both the legacy applications on the cloud Net Cloud applications? How do you provide for migration both ways? Applications of a born in the cloud and now you want to move them on premises or applications of a born on premises and you want to move them to the Cloud Outpost is great. I think it's a good good product of technologies that AWS are thinks that hybrid is the right strategy, but it's also one problem. It's also the problem off cloud applications running on premises it does not solve for the problem of legacy applications running and cloud right, that is just a cz difficult as ever. That's that's not become any easier without force. Similarly, if you look at what we are very swing with AWS, it's also legacy applications going going to AWS. But in doing so, they don't have access to all the different networking services that AWS offers because you're not running and a sex, and you're kind of running a different networking start tonight. So with well, thought long and hard about this problem. And I said, Hey, look, we're not going to take the easy answer over here. You can take Take our stock, which is known to run both legacy and cloud native applications. If probe in that on Internet natively into Amazon so that you can use Amazon service is you can use our service is you can a legacy. Applications can run more than applications without giving up. Anything on that, I think is why signal this longer? But I think it's a more powerful solution for the long term. >>Thank you so much for coming on the Cube. It's always a pleasure having you on my back and see us again. Thanks. I'm Rebecca Knight for stew. Minutemen stay more of the cubes. Live coverage of dot Next Nutanix here in Copenhagen,

>> from San Matteo. It's the Cube covering scaler Innovation Day Brought to you by scaler. >> I'm John for the Cube. We are here in San Mateo, California, for special Innovation Day with scaler at their headquarters. Their new headquarters here. I'm here. She here. Lou, Who's Xia Liu? Who's the software engineering team? Good to see you. Thanks for joining. >> Thank you. >> So tell us, what do you do here? What kind of programming? What kind of engineering? >> Sure. Eso i'ma back and suffer engineer at scaler. What I work on from the day to day basis is building our highly scaleable distributed systems and serving our customers fast queries. >> What's the future that you're building? >> Yeah. So one of the project that I'm working on right now is it will help our infrastructure to move towards a more stateless infrastructure s o. The project itself is a meta data storage component and a series of AP ice that Comptel are back and servers where to find a lock file. That might sound really simple, but at the massive scale of ours, it is actually a significant challenge to do it fast and reliably. >> And you're getting date is a big challenge or run knows that data is the new oil date is the goal. Whatever the people saying, the states is super important. You guys have a unique architecture around data ingest What's so unique about it? You mind sharing? >> Of course, s O. We have a lot of things that we do or don't do. Uniquely. I would like to start with the ingestion front of things and what we don't do on that front. So we don't do keywords indexing which most other extinct existing solutions, too. By not doing that, not keeping the index files up to date with every single log message that's incoming. We saved a lot of time and resource, actually, from the moment that our customers applications generate a logline Teo that logline becoming available to for search in scaler. You y that takes just a couple of seconds on DH on other existing solutions. That can take hours. >> So that's the ingests I What about the query side? Because you got in just now. Query. What's that all about? >> Yeah, of course. Actually. Do you mind if we go to black board a little bit? >> Take a look. >> Okay. Grab a chart real quick. Um, so we have a lot of servers around here. We have, uh, Q >> servers. Let's see. >> These are accused servers and, um, a lot of back and servers, Um, just to reiterate on the interest inside a little bit. When locks come in, they will hit one of these Q servers, and you want them Any one of them. And the Q server will kind of batch the log messages together and then pick one of the bag and servers at random and send the batch of locks. Do them any Q can reach any back in servers. And that's how we kind of were able to handle gigs of laughs. How much ever log that you give us way in jazz? Dozens of terabytes of data on a daily basis. Um, and then it is this same farm of back and servers. That's kind of helping us on the query funds crave front. Um, our goal is when a query comes in, we summon all of these back and servers at once. We get all of their computation powers, all of their CPU cores, to serve this one queer Ari, And that is just a massively scalable multi tenant model and in my mind is really economies of scale at its best. >> So scales huge here. So they got the decoupled back in and accused Q system. But yet they're talking to each other. So what's the impact of the customer? What some of the order of magnitude scale we're talking about here? >> Absolutely. So for on the loch side, we talked about seconds response time from logs being generated, too. They see the lock show up and on the query side, um, the median response time of our queries is under 100 milli second. And we defined that response time from the moment the customer hit in the return button on their laptop to they see results show up and more than 90% of our queries return results in under one second. >> So what's the deployment model for the customers? So I'm a customer. Oh, that sounds great. Leighton sees a huge issue one of low late and seek. His legacy is really the lag issue for data. Do I buy it as a service on my deploying boxes? What does this look like here? >> Nope. Absolutely. Adult were 100 plan cloud native. All of this is actually in our cloud infrastructure and us a customer. You just start using us as a sulfur is a service, and when you submit a query, all of our back and servers are at your service. And what's best about this model is that asks Keller's business girls. We will add more back and servers at more computation power and you as a customer's still get all of that, and you don't need to pay us any extra for the increased queries. >> What's the customer news case for this given you, given example of who would benefit from this? >> Absolutely. So imagine your e commerce platform and you're having this huge black Friday sales. Seconds of time might mean millions of revenues to you, And you don't wantto waste any time on the logging front to debug into your system to look at your monitoring and see where the problem is. If you ever have a problem, so we give you a query response time on the magnitude of seconds versus other is existing solutions. Maybe you need to wait for minutes anxiously in front of your computer. >> She What's the unique thing here? This looks like a really good actor, decoupling things that might make sense. But what's the What's the secret sauce? You? What's the big magic here? >> Yeah, absolutely. So anyone can kind of do a huge server farm Route Fours query approach. But the 1st 80% of a brute force algorithm is easy. It's really the last 20%. That's kind of more difficult, challenging and really differentiate. That's from the rest of others. Solutions. So to start with, we make every effort we can teo identify and skip the work that we don't have to do. S O. Maybe we can come back to your seats. >> Cut. >> Okay, so it's so it's exciting. >> Yeah. So we there are a couple things we do here to skip the work that we don't have to do. As we always say, the fastest queries are those we don't even have to run, which is very true. We have this Colin, our database that wee boat in house highly performance for our use case that can lead us only scan the columns that the customer cares about and skipped all the rest. And we also build a data structure called bloom Filters And if a query term does not occur in those boom filters, we can just skip the whole data set that represents >> so that speed helps on the speed performance. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. If we don't even have to look at that data set, >> You know, I love talking to suffer engineers, people on the cutting edge because, you know, you guys were startup. Attracting talent is a big thing, and people love to work on hard problems. What's the hard problem that you guys are solving here? >> Yeah, absolutely. S o we we have this huge server farm at at our disposal. It's, however, as we always say, the key to brute force algorithms is really to recruit as much force as possible as fast as we can. If you have hundreds thousands, of course lying around. But you don't have an effective way to some of them around when you need them. Then there's no help having them around 11 of the most interesting things that my team does is we developed this customised scatter gather algorithm in order to assign the work in a way that faster back and servers will dynamically compensate for slower servers without any prior knowledge. And I just love that >> how fast is going to get? >> Well, I have no doubt that will one day reach light speed. >> Specialist. Physics is a good thing, but it's also a bottleneck. Just what? Your story. How did you get into this? >> Yeah, s o. I joined Scaler about eight months ago as an ap s server, Actually. Sorry. As an FBI engineer, actually eso during my FBI days. I use scaler, the product very heavily. And it just became increasingly fascinated about the speed at which our queria runs. And I was like, I really want to get behind the scene and see what's going on in the back end. That gives us such fast query. So here I am. Two months ago, I switched the back and team. >> Well, congratulations. And thanks for sharing that insight. >> Thank you, John. Thank >> jumper here with Cuban Sites Day and Innovation Day here in San Mateo. Thanks for watching

>> From the SiliconANGLE Media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCube! (funky electronic music) Now, here's your host, Dave Vellante! >> Welcome, everybody, to this Cube conversation here in our Marlborough offices. I am very excited today, I spent a number of years at IDC, which, of course, is owned by IDG. And there's a new book out, relatively new, called Future Forward: Leadership Lessons from Patrick McGovern, the Visionary Who Circled the Globe and Built a Technology Media Empire. And it's a great book, lotta stories that I didn't know, many that I did know, and the author of that book, Glenn Rifkin, is here to talk about not only Pat McGovern but also some of the lessons that he put forth to help us as entrepreneurs and leaders apply to create better businesses and change the world. Glenn, thanks so much for comin' on theCube. >> Thank you, Dave, great to see ya. >> So let me start with, why did you write this book? >> Well, a couple reasons. The main reason was Patrick McGovern III, Pat's son, came to me at the end of 2016 and said, "My father had died in 2014 and I feel like his legacy deserves a book, and many people told me you were the guy to do it." So the background on that I, myself, worked at IDG back in the 1980s, I was an editor at Computerworld, got to know Pat during that time, did some work for him after I left Computerworld, on a one-on-one basis. Then I would see him over the years, interview him for the New York Times or other magazines, and every time I'd see Pat, I'd end our conversation by saying, "Pat, when are we gonna do your book?" And he would laugh, and he would say, "I'm not ready to do that yet, there's just still too much to do." And so it became sort of an inside joke for us, but I always really did wanna write this book about him because I felt he deserved a book. He was just one of these game-changing pioneers in the tech industry. >> He really was, of course, the book was even more meaningful for me, we, you and I started right in the same time, 1983-- >> Yeah. >> And by that time, IDG was almost 20 years old and it was quite a powerhouse then, but boy, we saw, really the ascendancy of IDG as a brand and, you know, the book reviews on, you know, the back covers are tech elite: Benioff wrote the forward, Mark Benioff, you had Bill Gates in there, Walter Isaacson was in there, Guy Kawasaki, Bob Metcalfe, George Colony-- >> Right. >> Who actually worked for a little stint at IDC for a while. John Markoff of The New York Times, so, you know, the elite of tech really sort of blessed this book and it was really a lot to do with Pat McGovern, right? >> Oh, absolutely, I think that the people on the inside understood how important he was to the history of the tech industry. He was not, you know, a household name, first of all, you didn't think of Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and then Pat McGovern, however, those who are in the know realize that he was as important in his own way as they were. Because somebody had to chronicle this story, somebody had to share the story of the evolution of this amazing information technology and how it changed the world. And Pat was never a front-of-the-TV-camera guy-- >> Right. >> He was a guy who put his people forward, he put his products forward, for sure, which is why IDG, as a corporate name, you know, most people don't know what that means, but people did know Macworld, people did know PCWorld, they knew IDC, they knew Computerworld for sure. So that was Pat's view of the world, he didn't care whether he had the spotlight on him or not. >> When you listen to leaders like Reed Hoffman or Eric Schmidt talk about, you know, great companies and how to build great companies, they always come back to culture. >> Yup. >> The book opens with a scene of, and we all, that I usually remember this, well, we're just hangin' around, waitin' for Pat to come in and hand out what was then called the Christmas bonus-- >> Right. >> Back when that wasn't politically incorrect to say. Now, of course, it's the holiday bonus. But it was, it was the Christmas bonus time and Pat was coming around and he was gonna personally hand a bonus, which was a substantial bonus, to every single employee at the company. I mean, and he did that, really, literally, forever. >> Forever, yeah. >> Throughout his career. >> Yeah, it was unheard of, CEOs just didn't do that and still don't do that, you were lucky, you got a message on the, you know, in the lunchroom from the CEO, "Good work, troops! Keep up the good work!" Pat just had a really different view of the culture of this company, as you know from having been there, and I know. It was very familial, there was a sense that we were all in this together, and it really was important for him to let every employee know that. The idea that he went to every desk in every office for IDG around the United States, when we were there in the '80s there were probably 5,000 employees in the US, he had to devote substantial amount-- >> Weeks and weeks! >> Weeks at a time to come to every building and do this, but year after year he insisted on doing it, his assistant at the time, Mary Dolaher told me she wanted to sign the cards, the Christmas cards, and he insisted that he ensign every one of them personally. This was the kind of view he had of how you keep employees happy, if your employees are happy, the customers are gonna be happy, and you're gonna make a lot of money. And that's what he did. >> And it wasn't just that. He had this awesome holiday party that you described, which was epic, and during the party, they would actually take pictures of every single person at the party and then they would load the carousel, you remember the 35-mm. carousel, and then, you know, toward the end of the evening, they would play that and everybody was transfixed 'cause they wanted to see their, the picture of themselves! >> Yeah, yeah. (laughs) >> I mean, it was ge-- and to actually pull that off in the 1980s was not trivial! Today, it would be a piece of cake. And then there was the IDG update, you know, the Good News memos, there was the 10-year lunch, the 20-year trips around the world, there were a lot of really rich benefits that, you know, in and of themselves maybe not a huge deal, but that was the culture that he set. >> Yeah, there was no question that if you talked to anybody who worked in this company over, say, the last 50 years, you were gonna get the same kind of stories. I've been kind of amazed, I'm going around, you know, marketing the book, talking about the book at various events, and the deep affection for this guy that still holds five years after he died, it's just remarkable. You don't really see that with the CEO class, there's a couple, you know, Steve Jobs left a great legacy of creativity, he was not a wonderful guy to his employees, but Pat McGovern, people loved this guy, and they st-- I would be signing books and somebody'd say, "Oh, I've been at IDG for 27 years and I remember all of this," and "I've been there 33 years," and there's a real longevity to this impact that he had on people. >> Now, the book was just, it was not just sort of a biography on McGovern, it was really about lessons from a leader and an entrepreneur and a media mogul who grew this great company in this culture that we can apply, you know, as business people and business leaders. Just to give you a sense of what Pat McGovern did, he really didn't take any outside capital, he did a little bit of, you know, public offering with IDG Books, but, really, you know, no outside capital, it was completely self-funded. He built a $3.8 billion empire, 300 publications, 280 million readers, and I think it was almost 100 or maybe even more, 100 countries. And so, that's an-- like you were, used the word remarkable, that is a remarkable achievement for a self-funded company. >> Yeah, Pat had a very clear vision of how, first of all, Pat had a photographic memory and if you were a manager in the company, you got a chance to sit in meetings with Pat and if you didn't know the numbers better than he did, which was a tough challenge, you were in trouble! 'Cause he knew everything, and so, he was really a numbers-focused guy and he understood that, you know, his best way to make profit was to not be looking for outside funding, not to have to share the wealth with investors, that you could do this yourself if you ran it tightly, you know, I called it in the book a 'loose-tight organization,' loose meaning he was a deep believer in decentralization, that every market needed its own leadership because they knew the market, you know, in Austria or in Russia or wherever, better than you would know it from a headquarters in Boston, but you also needed that tightness, a firm grip on the finances, you needed to know what was going on with each of the budgets or you were gonna end up in big trouble, which a lot of companies find themselves in. >> Well, and, you know, having worked there, I mean, essentially, if you made your numbers and did so ethically, and if you just kind of followed some of the corporate rules, which we'll talk about, he kind of left you alone. You know, you could, you could pretty much do whatever you wanted, you could stay in any hotel, you really couldn't fly first class, and we'll maybe talk about that-- >> Right. >> But he was a complex man, I mean, he was obviously wealthy, he was a billionaire, he was very generous, but at the same time he was frugal, you know, he drove, you know, a little, a car that was, you know, unremarkable, and we had buy him a car. He flew coach, and I remember one time, I was at a United flight, and I was, I had upgraded, you know, using my miles, and I sat down and right there was Lore McGovern, and we both looked at each other and said right at the same time, "I upgraded!" (laughs) Because Pat never flew up front, but he would always fly with a stack of newspapers in the seat next to him. >> Yeah, well, woe to, you were lucky he wasn't on the plane and spotted you as he was walking past you into coach, because he was not real forgiving when he saw people, people would hide and, you know, try to avoid him at all cost. And, I mean, he was a big man, Pat was 6'3", you know, 250 lbs. at least, built like a linebacker, so he didn't fit into coach that well, and he wasn't flying, you know, the shuttle to New York, he was flyin' to Beijing, he was flyin' to Moscow, he was going all over the world, squeezing himself into these seats. Now, you know, full disclosure, as he got older and had, like, probably 10 million air miles at his disposal, he would upgrade too, occasionally, for those long-haul flights, just 'cause he wanted to be fresh when he would get off the plane. But, yeah, these are legends about Pat that his frugality was just pure legend in the company, he owned this, you know, several versions of that dark blue suit, and that's what you would see him in. He would never deviate from that. And, but, he had his patterns, but he understood the impact those patterns had on his employees and on his customers. >> I wanna get into some of the lessons, because, really, this is what the book is all about, the heart of it. And you mentioned, you know, one, and we're gonna tell from others, but you really gotta stay close to the customer, that was one of the 10 corporate values, and you remember, he used to go to the meetings and he'd sometimes randomly ask people to recite, "What's number eight?" (laughs) And you'd be like, oh, you'd have your cheat sheet there. And so, so, just to give you a sense, this man was an entrepreneur, he started the company in 1964 with a database that he kind of pre-sold, he was kind of the sell, design, build type of mentality, he would pre-sold this thing, and then he started Computerworld in 1967, so it was really only a few years after he launched the company that he started the Computerworld, and other than Data Nation, there was nothing there, huge pent-up demand for that type of publication, and he caught lightning in a bottle, and that's really how he funded, you know, the growth. >> Yeah, oh, no question. Computerworld became, you know, the bible of the industry, it became a cash cow for IDG, you know, but at the time, it's so easy to look in hindsight and say, oh, well, obviously. But when Pat was doing this, one little-known fact is he was an editor at a publication called Computers and Automation that was based in Newton, Massachusetts and he kept that job even after he started IDC, which was the original company in 1964. It was gonna be a research company, and it was doing great, he was seeing the build-up, but it wasn't 'til '67 when he started Computerworld, that he said, "Okay, now this is gonna be a full-time gig for me," and he left the other publication for good. But, you know, he was sorta hedging his bets there for a little while. >> And that's where he really gained respect for what we'll call the 'Chinese Wallet,' the, you know, editorial versus advertising. We're gonna talk about that some more. So I mentioned, 1967, Computerworld. So he launched in 1964, by 1971, he was goin' to Japan, we're gonna talk about the China Stories as well, so, he named the company International Data Corp, where he was at a little spot in Newton, Mass.-- >> Right, right. >> So, he had a vision. You said in your book, you mention, how did this gentleman get it so right for so long? And that really leads to some of the leadership lessons, and one of them in the book was, sort of, have a mission, have a vision, and really, Pat was always talking about information, about information technology, in fact, when Wine for Dummies came out, it kind of created a little friction, that was really off the center. >> Or Wine for Dummies, or Sex for Dummies! >> Yeah, Sex for Dummies, boy, yeah! >> With, that's right, Ruth Westheimer-- >> Dr. Ruth Westheimer. >> But generally speaking, Glenn, he was on that mark, he really didn't deviate from that vision. >> Yeah, no, it was very crucial to the development of the company that he got people to, you know, buy into that mission, because the mission was everything. And he understood, you know, he had the numbers, but he also saw what was happening out there, from the 1960s, when IBM mainframes filled a room, and, you know, only the high priests of data centers could touch them. He had a vision for, you know, what was coming next and he started to understand that there would be many facets to this information about information technology, it wasn't gonna be boring, if anything, it was gonna be the story of our age and he was gonna stick to it and sell it. >> And, you know, timing is everything, but so is, you know, Pat was a workaholic and had an amazing mind, but one of the things I learned from the book, and you said this, Pat Kenealy mentioned it, all American industrial and social revolutions have had a media company linked to them, Crane and automobiles, Penton and energy, McGraw-Hill and aerospace, Annenberg, of course, and TV, and in technology, it was IDG. >> Yeah, he, like I said earlier, he really was a key figure in the development of this industry and it was, you know, one of the key things about that, a lot publications that came and went made the mistake of being platform or, you know, vertical market specific. And if that market changed, and it was inevitably gonna change in high tech, you were done. He never, you know, he never married himself to some specific technology cycle. His idea was the audience was not gonna change, the audience was gonna have to roll with this, so, the company, IDG, would produce publications that got that, you know, Computerworld was actually a little bit late to the PC game, but eventually got into it and we tracked the different cycles, you know, things in tech move in sine waves, they come and go. And Pat never was, you know, flustered by that, he could handle any kind of changes from the mainframes down to the smartphone when it came. And so, that kind of flexibility, and ability to adjust to markets, really was unprecedented in that particular part of the market. >> One of the other lessons in the book, I call it 'nation-building,' and Pat shared with you that, look, that you shared, actually, with your readers, if you wanna do it right, you've gotta be on the ground, you've gotta be there. And the China story is one that I didn't know about how Pat kind of talked his way into China, tell us, give us a little summary of that story. >> Sure, I love that story because it's so Pat. It was 1978, Pat was in Tokyo on a business trip, one of his many business trips, and he was gonna be flying to Moscow for a trade show. And he got a flight that was gonna make a stopover in Beijing, which in those days was called Peking, and was not open to Americans. There were no US and China diplomatic relations then. But Pat had it in mind that he was going to get off that plane in Beijing and see what he could see. So that meant that he had to leave the flight when it landed in Beijing and talk his way through the customs as they were in China at the time with folks in the, wherever, the Quonset hut that served for the airport, speaking no English, and him speaking no Chinese, he somehow convinced these folks to give him a day pass, 'cause he kept saying to them, "I'm only in transit, it's okay!" (laughs) Like, he wasn't coming, you know, to spy on them on them or anything. So here's this massive American businessman in his dark suit, and he somehow gets into downtown Beijing, which at the time was mostly bicycles, very few cars, there were camels walking down the street, they'd come with traders from Mongolia. The people were still wearing the drab outfits from the Mao era, and Pat just spent the whole day wandering around the city, just soaking it in. He was that kind of a world traveler. He loved different cultures, mostly eastern cultures, and he would pop his head into bookstores. And what he saw were people just clamoring to get their hands on anything, a newspaper, a magazine, and it just, it didn't take long for the light bulb to go on and said, this is a market we need to play in. >> He was fascinated with China, I, you know, as an employee and a business P&L manager, I never understood it, I said, you know, the per capita spending on IT in China was like a dollar, you know? >> Right. >> And I remember my lunch with him, my 10-year lunch, he said, "Yeah, but, you know, there's gonna be a huge opportunity there, and yeah, I don't know how we're gonna get the money out, maybe we'll buy a bunch of tea and ship it over, but I'm not worried about that." And, of course, he meets Hugo Shong, which is a huge player in the book, and the home run out of China was, of course, the venture capital, which he started before there was even a stock market, really, to exit in China. >> Right, yeah. No, he was really a visionary, I mean, that word gets tossed around maybe more than it should, but Pat was a bonafide visionary and he saw things in China that were developing that others didn't see, including, for example, his own board, who told him he was crazy because in 1980, he went back to China without telling them and within days he had a meeting with the ministry of technology and set up a joint venture, cost IDG $250,000, and six months later, the first issue of China Computerworld was being published and within a couple of years it was the biggest publication in China. He said, told me at some point that $250,0000 investment turned into $85 million and when he got home, that first trip, the board was furious, they said, "How can you do business with the commies? You're gonna ruin our brand!" And Pat said, "Just, you know, stick with me on this one, you're gonna see." And the venture capital story was just an offshoot, he saw the opportunity in the early '90s, that venture in China could in fact be a huge market, why not help build it? And that's what he did. >> What's your take on, so, IDG sold to, basically, Chinese investors. >> Yeah. >> It's kind of bittersweet, but in the same time, it's symbolic given Pat's love for China and the Chinese people. There's been a little bit of criticism about that, I know that the US government required IDC to spin out its supercomputer division because of concerns there. I'm always teasing Michael Dow that at the next IDG board meeting, those Lenovo numbers, they're gonna look kinda law. (laughs) But what are your, what's your, what are your thoughts on that, in terms of, you know, people criticize China in terms of IP protections, etc. What would Pat have said to that, do you think? >> You know, Pat made 130 trips to China in his life, that's, we calculated at some point that just the air time in planes would have been something like three and a half to four years of his life on planes going to China and back. I think Pat would, today, acknowledge, as he did then, that China has issues, there's not, you can't be that naive. He got that. But he also understood that these were people, at the end of the day, who were thirsty and hungry for information and that they were gonna be a player in the world economy at some point, and that it was crucial for IDG to be at the forefront of that, not just play later, but let's get in early, let's lead the parade. And I think that, you know, some part of him would have been okay with the sale of the company to this conglomerate there, called China Oceanwide. Clearly controversial, I mean, but once Pat died, everyone knew that the company was never gonna be the same with the leader who had been at the helm for 50 years, it was gonna be a tough transition for whoever took over. And I think, you know, it's hard to say, certainly there's criticism of things going on with China. China's gonna be the hot topic page one of the New York Times almost every single day for a long time to come. I think Pat would have said, this was appropriate given my love of China, the kind of return on investment he got from China, I think he would have been okay with it. >> Yeah, and to invoke the Ben Franklin maxim, "Trading partners seldom wage war," and so, you know, I think Pat would have probably looked at it that way, but, huge home run, I mean, I think he was early on into Baidu and Alibaba and Tencent and amazing story. I wanna talk about decentralization because that was always something that was just on our minds as employees of IDG, it was keep the corporate staff lean, have a flat organization, if you had eight, 10, 12 direct reports, that was okay, Pat really meant it when he said, "You're the CEO of your own business!" Whether that business was, you know, IDC, big company, or a manager at IDC, where you might have, you know, done tens of millions of dollars, but you felt like a CEO, you were encouraged to try new things, you were encouraged to fail, and fail fast. Their arch nemesis of IDG was Ziff Davis, they were a command and control, sort of Bill Ziff, CMP to a certain extent was kind of the same way out of Manhasset, totally different philosophies and I think Pat never, ever even came close to wavering from that decentralization philosophy, did he? >> No, no, I mean, I think that the story that he told me that I found fascinating was, he didn't have an epiphany that decentralization would be the mechanism for success, it was more that he had started traveling, and when he'd come back to his office, the memos and requests and papers to sign were stacked up two feet high. And he realized that he was holding up the company because he wasn't there to do this and that at some point, he couldn't do it all, it was gonna be too big for that, and that's when the light came on and said this decentralization concept really makes sense for us, if we're gonna be an international company, which clearly was his mission from the beginning, we have to say the people on the ground in those markets are the people who are gonna make the decisions because we can't make 'em from Boston. And I talked to many people who, were, you know, did a trip to Europe, met the folks in London, met the folks in Munich, and they said to a person, you know, it was so ahead of its time, today it just seems obvious, but in the 1960s, early '70s, it was really not a, you know, a regular leadership tenet in most companies. The command and control that you talked about was the way that you did business. >> And, you know, they both worked, but, you know, from a cultural standpoint, clearly IDG and IDC have had staying power, and he had the three-quarter rule, you talked about it in your book, if you missed your numbers three quarters in a row, you were in trouble. >> Right. >> You know, one quarter, hey, let's talk, two quarters, we maybe make some changes, three quarters, you're gone. >> Right. >> And so, as I said, if you were makin' your numbers, you had wide latitude. One of the things you didn't have latitude on was I'll call it 'pay to play,' you know, crossing that line between editorial and advertising. And Pat would, I remember I was at a meeting one time, I'm sorry to tell these stories, but-- >> That's okay. (laughs) >> But we were at an offsite meeting at a woods meeting and, you know, they give you a exercise, go off and tell us what the customer wants. Bill Laberis, who's the editor-in-chief at Computerworld at the time, said, "Who's the customer?" And Pat said, "That's a great question! To the publisher, it's the advertiser. To you, Bill, and the editorial staff, it's the reader. And both are equally important." And Pat would never allow the editorial to be compromised by the advertiser. >> Yeah, no, he, there was a clear barrier between church and state in that company and he, you know, consistently backed editorial on that issue because, you know, keep in mind when we started then, and I was, you know, a journalist hoping to, you know, change the world, the trade press then was considered, like, a little below the mainstream business press. The trade press had a reputation for being a little too cozy with the advertisers, so, and Pat said early on, "We can't do that, because everything we have, our product is built, the brand is built on integrity. And if the reader doesn't believe that what we're reporting is actually true and factual and unbiased, we're gonna lose to the advertisers in the long run anyway." So he was clear that that had to be the case and time and again, there would be conflict that would come up, it was just, as you just described it, the publishers, the sales guys, they wanted to bring in money, and if it, you know, occasionally, hey, we could nudge the editor of this particular publication, "Take it a little bit easier on this vendor because they're gonna advertise big with us," Pat just would always back the editor and say, "That's not gonna happen." And it caused, you know, friction for sure, but he was unwavering in his support. >> Well, it's interesting because, you know, Macworld, I think, is an interesting case study because there were sort of some backroom dealings and Pat maneuvered to be able to get the Macworld, you know, brand, the license for that. >> Right. >> But it caused friction between Steve Jobs and the writers of Macworld, they would write something that Steve Jobs, who was a control freak, couldn't control! >> Yeah. (laughs) >> And he regretted giving IDG the license. >> Yeah, yeah, he once said that was the worst decision he ever made was to give the license to Pat to, you know, Macworlld was published on the day that Mac was introduced in 1984, that was the deal that they had and it was, what Jobs forgot was how important it was to the development of that product to have a whole magazine devoted to it on day one, and a really good magazine that, you know, a lot of people still lament the glory days of Macworld. But yeah, he was, he and Steve Jobs did not get along, and I think that almost says a lot more about Jobs because Pat pretty much got along with everybody. >> That church and state dynamic seems to be changing, across the industry, I mean, in tech journalism, there aren't any more tech journalists in the United States, I mean, I'm overstating that, but there are far fewer than there were when we were at IDG. You're seeing all kinds of publications and media companies struggling, you know, Kara Swisher, who's the greatest journalist, and Walt Mossberg, in the tech industry, try to make it, you know, on their own, and they couldn't. So, those lines are somewhat blurring, not that Kara Swisher is blurring those lines, she's, you know, I think, very, very solid in that regard, but it seems like the business model is changing. As an observer of the markets, what do you think's happening in the publishing world? >> Well, I, you know, as a journalist, I'm sort of aghast at what's goin' on these days, a lot of my, I've been around a long time, and seeing former colleagues who are no longer in journalism because the jobs just started drying up is, it's a scary prospect, you know, unlike being the enemy of the people, the first amendment is pretty important to the future of the democracy, so to see these, you know, cutbacks and newspapers going out of business is difficult. At the same time, the internet was inevitable and it was going to change that dynamic dramatically, so how does that play out? Well, the problem is, anybody can post anything they want on social media and call it news, and the challenge is to maintain some level of integrity in the kind of reporting that you do, and it's more important now than ever, so I think that, you know, somebody like Pat would be an important figure if he was still around, in trying to keep that going. >> Well, Facebook and Google have cut the heart out of, you know, a lot of the business models of many media companies, and you're seeing sort of a pendulum swing back to nonprofits, which, I understand, speaking of folks back in the mid to early 1900s, nonprofits were the way in which, you know, journalism got funded, you know, maybe it's billionaires buying things like the Washington Post that help fund it, but clearly the model's shifting and it's somewhat unclear, you know, what's happening there. I wanted to talk about another lesson, which, Pat was the head cheerleader. So, I remember, it was kind of just after we started, the Computerworld's 20th anniversary, and they hired the marching band and they walked Pat and Mary Dolaher walked from 5 Speen Street, you know, IDG headquarters, they walked to Computerworld, which was up Old, I guess Old Connecticut Path, or maybe it was-- >> It was actually on Route 30-- >> Route 30 at the time, yeah. And Pat was dressed up as the drum major and Mary as well, (laughs) and he would do crazy things like that, he'd jump out of a plane with IDG is number one again, he'd post a, you know, a flag in Antarctica, IDG is number one again! It was just a, it was an amazing dynamic that he had, always cheering people on. >> Yeah, he was, he was, when he called himself the CEO, the Chief Encouragement Officer, you mentioned earlier the Good News notes. Everyone who worked there, at some point received this 8x10" piece of paper with a rainbow logo on it and it said, "Good News!" And there was a personal note from Pat McGovern, out of the blue, totally unexpected, to thank you and congratulate you on some bit of work, whatever it was, if you were a reporter, some article you wrote, if you were a sales guy, a sale that you made, and people all over the world would get these from him and put them up in their cubicles because it was like a badge of honor to have them, and people, I still have 'em, (laughs) you know, in a folder somewhere. And he was just unrelenting in supporting the people who worked there, and it was, the impact of that is something you can't put a price tag on, it's just, it stays with people for all their lives, people who have left there and gone on to four or five different jobs always think fondly back to the days at IDG and having, knowing that the CEO had your back in that manner. >> The legend of, and the legacy of Patrick J. McGovern is not just in IDG and IDC, which you were interested in in your book, I mean, you weren't at IDC, I was, and I was started when I saw the sort of downturn and then now it's very, very successful company, you know, whatever, $3-400 million, throwin' off a lot of profits, just to decide, I worked for every single CEO at IDC with the exception of Pat McGovern, and now, Kirk Campbell, the current CEO, is moving on Crawford del Prete's moving into the role of president, it's just a matter of time before he gets CEO, so I will, and I hired Crawford-- >> Oh, you did? (laughs) >> So, I've worked for and/or hired every CEO of IDC except for Pat McGovern, so, but, the legacy goes beyond IDG and IDC, great brands. The McGovern Brain Institute, 350 million, is that right? >> That's right. >> He dedicated to studying, you know, the human brain, he and Lore, very much involved. >> Yup. >> Typical of Pat, he wasn't just, "Hey, here's the check," and disappear. He was goin' in, "Hey, I have some ideas"-- >> Oh yeah. >> Talk about that a little. >> Yeah, well, this was a guy who spent his whole life fascinated by the human brain and the impact technology would have on the human brain, so when he had enough money, he and Lore, in 2000, gave a $350 million gift to MIT to create the McGovern Institute for Brain Research. At the time, the largest academic gift ever given to any university. And, as you said, Pat wasn't a guy who was gonna write a check and leave and wave goodbye. Pat was involved from day one. He and Lore would come and sit in day-long seminars listening to researchers talk about about the most esoteric research going on, and he would take notes, and he wasn't a brain scientist, but he wanted to know more, and he would talk to researchers, he would send Good News notes to them, just like he did with IDG, and it had same impact. People said, "This guy is a serious supporter here, he's not just showin' up with a checkbook." Bob Desimone, who's the director of the Brain Institute, just marveled at this guy's energy level, that he would come in and for days, just sit there and listen and take it all in. And it just, it was an indicator of what kind of person he was, this insatiable curiosity to learn more and more about the world. And he wanted his legacy to be this intersection of technology and brain research, he felt that this institute could cure all sorts of brain-related diseases, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, etc. And it would then just make a better future for mankind, and as corny as that might sound, that was really the motivator for Pat McGovern. >> Well, it's funny that you mention the word corny, 'cause a lot of people saw Pat as somewhat corny, but, as you got to know him, you're like, wow, he really means this, he loves his company, the company was his extended family. When Pat met his untimely demise, we held a crowd chat, crowdchat.net/thankspat, and there's a voting mechanism in there, and the number one vote was from Paul Gillen, who posted, "Leo Durocher said that nice guys finish last, Pat McGovern proved that wrong." >> Yeah. >> And I think that's very true and, again, awesome legacy. What number book is this for you? You've written a lot of books. >> This is number 13. >> 13, well, congratulations, lucky 13. >> Thank you. >> The book is Fast Forward-- >> Future Forward. >> I'm sorry, Future Forward! (laughs) Future Forward by Glenn Rifkin. Check out, there's a link in the YouTube down below, check that out and there's some additional information there. Glenn, congratulations on getting the book done, and thanks so much for-- >> Thank you for having me, this is great, really enjoyed it. It's always good to chat with another former IDGer who gets it. (laughs) >> Brought back a lot of memories, so, again, thanks for writing the book. All right, thanks for watching, everybody, we'll see you next time. This is Dave Vellante. You're watchin' theCube. (electronic music)

>> What? Welcome to a special keep conversation here in Palo Alto. Shot for host of the Cube. The Palo Alto Studios here in Palo Alto. Where here With Adam Casella, CEO and co founder of Snap Route and Glenn Sullivan, Cofounder. Snap. Right, guys, Good to see you. Thanks for coming on. So, you guys are a hot startup launching you guys? Former apple engineers, running infrastructure, I would say large scale an apple, >> just a little bit >> global nature. Tell the story. What? How did you guys start the company? We did it all come from the apple. A lot of motivation to see a lot there. You seeing huge trends? You'd probably building your own stuff. What was that? What was the story? >> So, yeah, basically way. We were running a large external stuff at Apple. So think of you know, anything you would use his user, Siri maps, iTunes, icloud, those air, the networks that Adam and I were responsible for keeping up, keeping stable on DH. You know, there was a lot of growth. So this is pretty twenty fifteen. We started snapping on August twenty fifteen, so it's a big growth period for, you know, icloud. Big growth period for iTunes. Lots of users, lots of demand. Sort of lots of building infrastructure in sort of a firefighting mode on DH. One of the things that occurred is that we needed to move to more of, you know, infrastructure kind of building out as you need it for capacity. If you start talking to the folks up the road, you know, with Facebook and Google and Microsoft and all those folks, you realize that you have to kind of build it, and then they will come. You can't really always be reactionary and building these kind of bespoke artisanal networks, right? So him and I had to come at it from both a architectural apology network kind of network engineering, geeky kind of level, and also from an automation orchestration. Visibility standpoint. So we pretty much had to do a Nen tire reimagining of what we were building as we were going to build these new networks to make sure we could could anticipate capacity and deploy things before you know it was necessary. >> Yeah, and make sure that the network is agile, flexible enough to respond to those needs, and change isn't required. >> You mentioned. The surge came around time for twenty, twelve, twenty, thirteen, different exactly apples been around for a while, so they had. They were buying boxes and start racking and stacking for years. So they have applications probably going back a decade, of course. So as Apple started to really, really grow Icloud and the iPhone seven, you still got legacy. So how did you guys constantly reshaped the network without breaking it with some of the things that you guys saw? That was successful because it's kind of a case study of, you know, you know, the next level without breaking >> anything. Yeah, did when migration was interesting, uh, essentially into doing it. She start attacking it for the legacy environments as Iraq. Iraq process, right? You gotta figure out what applications better most easily be able to move and start with the low hanging fruit first so you could start proving out the concept that you're talking about. You try with the hardest aspect or the Horace Apt to move. You're going to get it with a lot of road block. If my you might actually fail potentially and you won't get what you need where you need to go if you took, took some low hanging fruit applications that can easily migrate between, you know, an old environment and new environment. >> It's not dissimilar to environments where things are acquisition heavy, like we've got some friends at some other Silicon Valley companies that are very active. You know, acquisition heavy, right? It's It's a company that's one name on the outside, but it's twenty thirty different Cos on the inside, and what they typically end up doing is they end up treating each one of those as islands of customers, and they build out a core infrastructure, and they treat themselves more like an ice pick. So if you if you Khun, meld your environment where you're more like a service provider and you're different legacy applications and new applications arm or you know customers, then you're going to end up in a better situation and that we did a little bit of that, you know, at Apple, where they have, you know, really, really core service provider, head the type. You know, if a structure with all of these different customers hanging >> off his isolation options there. But also integration, probably smoother. If you think it was a service provider. >> DeMarcus solid right and clear. >> So talk about the nature you got cloud experts. I'll see infrastructure experts. You're really in the The Deep Dev ops movement as it goes kind of multi and agree because he got storage, networking and compute the holy trinity of infrastructure kind. All changing on being reimagined. Storage isn't going away. More data is being stored. Networks need to be programmable on DH, Secure and Computers unlimited. Now it's naming all kinds of innovation. So you're seeing companies, whether it's the department defense with the Jed I contract trying to. You're the best architecture on enterprise that might have a lot of legacy trying to re imagine the question of what to do around multi cloud and data center relationships. What's your perspective on this phenomenon? OK, we have tohave scale, so we have a little bit on Prem or a lot of fun. Prem, We'll have cloud and Amazon maybe cloud over Microsoft, so it's really gonna be multiple clouds. But is it simply the answer of multiple clouds just for the sake of being multi cloud? Or is there a reason for Multi Cloud is reason for one cloud. You sure? Your perspective on the >> sure it's it it's the thought might be that it's kind of most important have one overarching strategy that you adapt to everything, and that's sort of true, right? We'd say, Okay, well, we're going to standardize something like you, Bernetti. So we're gonna have one Cuban, these cluster and that Cubans cluster is going to run in desert. It's got running. Google is going to run in, you know, on Prem and all that. It's actually less important that you have one fabric or one cluster, one unified way to manage things. What's more important is that you standardize on a tool set and you standardize on a methodology. And so you say, Okay, I need to have an orchestration later. Find that's communities. You have a run time environment for my container ization. Sure, that's Dr or whatever other solutions you wantto have. And then you have a P structures that used to program these things. It's much more important that all those things they're standardized that then they're unified, right? You say I have Cooper Natives control, and I'm gonna control it the same way, whether it's a desert, whether it's in Google Cloud or whether or not it's on Prem. That's the more important part. Rather than say, I have one big thing and I try to manage so to your point, >> by having that control point that's standard with all the guys allows for. The micro services camp allows for all these new agile and capabilities. Then it becomes the cloud for the job. Things are exactly Office three sixty five. Why not use Azure? >> Yeah, I mean, that's the whole problem with doing like technology. Pick technology sake. Technology doesn't solve problems. Old is maybe a, you know, piece technologies to peace technology. And I think it's why you look at like, cloud native communities and doctor and and you know why Dr initially had a lot more struggle and widely more successful after you, Seymour, that cloud that have come out there because cloud native put a process around how you could go ahead and ensure these things. We deployed in a way that was easily managed, right? You have C I. D for I want my container. But out there, I have a way to manage it with communities in this particular pipeline and have a way to get it deployed. Without that structure, you're going to be just doing technology for technology sake. >> Yeah, and this is modernizing, too. So it's a great point about the control point. I want to just take it the next level, which is, you know, back when I was breaking into the business, the word multi vendor was a word that everyone tossed around every multi vendor. Why we need choice choices good. While choice down streams always, it was always something. There's an option. More optionality, less of a reality, so obvious is good. No one wants the vendor locking unless you It's affordable and spine, right? So intel chips a lock in, but no one ever cares, processes stuff and moves on. Um, so the notion of multi vendor multi cloud How do you guys think about that? As you look at the architectural changes of a modern compute, modern stories modern network facility, >> I think it's really important. Tio, go back to what you said before about office three sixty five, right? Like why would you run that? Other places other than deserve rights, got all the tools. Lt's. It's really, really critical that you don't allow yourself to get boxed into a corner where you're going to the lowest common denominator across all the platforms, right? So so when you're looking at multi cloud or hybrid cloud solution, use what's best for what you're doing. But make sure that you've got your two or three points that you won't waver on right like communities like AP Integration like whatever service abstraction layers that you want right? Focus on those, but then be flexible to allow yourself to put the workloads where they make sense. And having mobile workloads is the whole point to going into the Qatar having a multi cloud strategy anyway. Workload mobility is key >> workloads and the apse of Super Port. You mentioned earlier about ass moving around, and that's the reality, correct. If that becomes the reality and is the norm than the architecture has to wrap around it, how did you advise and how do you view that of unfolding? Because if data becomes now a very key part of a workload data, considerable clouds late and see comes. And now here you go, backto Leighton Sea and laws of physics. So I just start thinking about the network and the realities of moving things around. What do you guys see as a A so directionally correct path for that? >> Sure. So I kind of see if you look if you break down, OK? You have storage, You have network. You have, You know, applications, right? And I heard something that from a while ago actually agree with that. I says, you know, Dad is the new soil, right? And I look at that, OK, That that is new soil. Then guess what network is the water and the applications air seats. And if you have missing one of those, you're not going to end up with a with a, you know, a growing plants. And so if you don't have the construct of having all these things managed in a way that you could actually keep track of all of them and make them work in chorus, you're going to end up where e Yeah, I could move my application to, you know, from point A to point B. But now it's failed. Haven't they? Don't have connectivity. I don't have storage. Or I can go out there and I have storage and, you know, no connectivity or kind. Give me and, you know, missing one. Those competed on there and you don't end up with a fully functioning you know, environment that allows you >> so. The interplay between stories, networking and compute has to be always tightly managed or controlled to be flexible, to manage whatever situation when I was growing >> and you gotta have the metadata, right, like, you've got to be able to get this stuff out of the network. That's why that's why what we're doing it's not proud is so critical for us is because you need to have the data presented in a way, using the telemetry tools of choice that give you the information to be able to move the workloads appropriately. The network can't be a black box, just like in the in the storage side. This storage stuff can't be a black box, either, right? You have to have the data so that you could place the workload is appropriately >> okay. What's your guy's thesis for a snapper out when you guys started the company? What was the the guiding principle or the core thesis? And what core problem did you solve? So answer the question. Core problem. We solve his blank. What is that? >> So I think the core problem we solve is getting applications deployed faster than they ever have been right And having making, doing, making sure it's not a secure way in an efficient way. Operationally mean those air, basically, what the tenants of what we're trying to solve a what we're going for. And, uh the reason for is that today the network is withholding back the business from being able to employ their applications faster, whether it be in a polo sight, whether it be local on data center or whether being, you know, in the cloud from, you know, their perspective connectivity between their local, on prep stuff on whatever might be in, you know, eight of us is ordered >> Google and enabling that happened in seamlessly so that the network is not in the way or >> yeah. So if you could now see what's happened on the network and now you can have control over that aspect of it, you do it in a way. It's familiar to people who are deploying those applications. They now have that ability to place those work clothes intelligently and making sure that they can have the configuration of activity that they need for those applications. >> Okay, so I say I said, You guys, Hey, I'm solvent. Assault, sold. I love this. What do I do next? How doe I engage with you guys, Do I buy software? So I loaded Bokkelen infrastructure. What's the What's the snap route solution? >> So so the first part of the discussions, we talk about hardware. Obviously, we don't make our own hardware. That's the whole point of this allegation. Is that you by the harbor from somebody else? Andi, you buy the software from us, so there's a lot of times of the initial engagements. There's some education that goes on about this is what this aggregation means, and it's very, very similar to what we saw in the computer world, right? You had your classic, you know, environments where people were buying. You know, big iron from HP and Dell and IBM and Sun and everybody else, right? But now they can get it from, you know, ziti and kwon and sort of micro and and whoever else and they wouldn't They would really think of buying software from those same companies. Maybe some management software, but you're not going to buy your licks version from the same people that you're buying your harbor from. So once we explain and kind of educate on that process and some folks that are already learning this, the big cloud providers already figuring this out, then it's a matter of, you know, here's the software solution and here's howto >> be a threat to civilians getting what? My plugging into my connecting to certain systems, how would I just deploy? It will take me through the use case of installing it. What is it? Connect to >> shirt. So you have your white box top Iraq device or, you know, switching my on there. You load our code on there. We used only to initially deploy the stuff on there on. Then you can go. You can go ahead and load all the containers on. They're using things like helm and pulling it from harbor. Whether that be exciting, if you have locally or internally or you Khun bundling altogether and loaded in one particular image and then you can start, you know, interacting with that cabinet is a P I. To go ahead and sort of computing device. Additionally, we'll make sure this is clear to people who are, you know, networking guys going on. Cooper. Netease. God, what is all this? I never heard of this stuff. We supply a full fledged CIA, lied. It looks and feels just like you want a regular network device toe act as a bridge from what you do, those guys are comfortable with today to where the future is going to be a and it sits on top of that same apia. >> So network as we're comfortable with this correct that's going >> and they get to do stuff using cloud native tools without worrying about, you know, understanding micro services or continue ization. They now have the ability to pull contenders off, put new containers on in a way that they would just normally use. Is he alive? >> I want to get you guys thoughts on a trend that we've been reporting on and kind of coming on the Cube. And I certainly have been a lot from past couple years past year. Particular covering this cloud native since the C in C S Koo coupon was starting, were there when that kind of started. Developers, we know that world develops a scene and agile, blah, blah, blah, All that good stuff. Networking guys used to be the keys, have keys thinking they were gods. You're networking engineer. Oh, yeah, I'm the guy saying No, All the time I'm in charge. Come through me. But now the world's flipped around. Applications need the network to do what it wants yet. Right. So you start to see program ability around networks. Let's go live. We saw the trend. The trend there is definite there. Developer programs growing really, really fast. He started. See networking folks turned into developers. So youjust smart ones do. And the networking concepts around provisioning is that you see service measures on top of you. Burnett. He's hot. So you start to see the network. Parent Policy based this policy based that program ability Automation. It's kind of in the wheelhouse of a network person. Yeah, your guys. Thoughts on the evolution of the developer, The network developer. Is it really? Is it hyped up? Is that and where's ago? So >> we're going back to where we're networking originated from right. Developers started networking. I mean, let's not forget that right. It wasn't done by some guy who says I have a sea lion. I'm going now that work's work. Know someone had to write the code. Someone have deployed out there. But eventually you got to those guys where they went to particular vendors and those systems became or closed. And they weren't able to go ahead and have that open ecosystem that we, you know, has been built on the compute side. So that's kind of, um it does say, or, you know, hindered those particular that industry from growing, right. Never going. She's been hindered by this. We have been able to do an open ecosystem to get that operational innovation in there. So as we've moved on further and now as we get that, you know, those people saying no. Hey, you can't do anything. No, no, no. We have the keys to the castle. We're not gonna let you through here. The devil's guys, we're going when we still need to. The player applications are business still needs to move forward, So we're going to go around. And you could see that with some of the early ESPN solutions going on there says, you know what? I figure like that we just exist. Okay. Tunnel we're going to go over you. That day is coming to an end. But we're not going to go do that long termers air going on here because that efficiency there, the overhead there is really, really high. So as we start going on further, we're good. I have to pull back in tow. When we originally started with networking where you have people will use that open ecosystem and develop things on there and start programming the networks to match what's happened with the applications. So I see it. Something just >> clicked in your thoughts. >> Yes. So the smart network engineers, the guys and girls out there that want to be progressive and, you know, really adapt themselves are going to recognize that their value add isn't in being a SEAL I jockey and cutting and pasting from their playbooks in their method. They're forty eight page method of procedures that they've written for how to upgrade this chassis. Right. Um, your your expertise is an operational, you know, run time. Your your expertise is an operational best practice, right? So you need to just translate that. Lookit communities, looking operators, right, operators, existing communities to bake in operational intelligence and best practices into a bundle deployment, Right? So translate that. Right? So what's the best way to take this device out of service and do an upgrade? It's us step. It's a method of procedures translating that new acumen and his operator to put that in your communities bundle Senate in your image. You're good to go like this is. The translation has happened there. There is an interim step right. You know, our friends over at answerable are friends and puppet, insult and chef and all. They've got different ways to control. You know, traditional see allies using, you know, very, very kind of screen scraping, pushing the commands down and verifying getting output in changing that, it's possible to do it that way. It's just really painful. So what we're saying is, why don't you just do it? Natively use the tool like an operator and then put your intelligence into design operational intelligence layout like do that level instead of, you know, cutting and pasting >> for so developers are it's all developers. Now it's emerged together. Now you have open >> infrastructure is code right? >> Infrastructures code? Yeah, everything >> Israel programmer, I mean, but you can't you can't and I want to make sure it's already clear to include was saying that you can't get away from the guys who run networks and what they've seen experienced that they've had so but they need to now take that to his point and making it something that you actually can develop in code against and actually make into a process that can be done over and over again. Not just words on paper. >> That's what I think they were. Developer angles. So really, it's about translating operational efficiencies into the network into code because to move APS around do kind of dynamic provisioning and containing all the services that are coming online. >> And you can only do that if you've actually taking a look at what how the network operating systems architected and adopt a new approach of doing it because the legacy, ways of doing it don't work here >> and getting an operation from like what you guys were approached. Your strategy and thesis is having OS baked as close to the network as possible for the most flexible on high performance. Nice thing. Secure abstraction, layers, first proxies and >> simple it down >> with that great guys. Thanks. And good luck on eventually keep will be following you. Thanks for the conversation. Thank you for your conversation here in Palo Alto. I'm John for you're talking networking cloud native with snap route. Launching a new operating system for networks for cloud native. I'm John Forget. Thanks for watching.

from Gillette Stadium in Foxborough Massachusetts it's the cube covering Vita winter warmer 2019 brought to you by silicon angle media hi I'm Stu minimun and this is the cube at V tug winter warmer 2019 at Gillette Stadium home of the New England Patriots the AFC Championship team going to the Super Bowl third year in a row yet again Randall right yeah paying it's my Los Angeles Rams oh so happy to welcome to the program Randall hunt who's a software engineer with AWS did a keynote this morning I believe it was a hundred AWS features in 50 minutes and felt like you we added a couple more than 100 and went a little over 50 minutes but I think we probably hit 57 minutes that was what the slide counter said but yeah I added a couple of the updates since reinvent you know reinvent is not the end of our innovation we continued releasing new stuff after that all right so our program we're not going to be showing JavaScript we're gonna take a deep breath and slow down a little bit because you know our audience absolutely knows Amazon I tell you this show remember like four years ago first time AWS presented me at Microsoft and AWS here and people heard cloud 101 and I was like come on I could have given this presentation and they were walking around like oh my god I just you know found out that you know who you know horseless carriages and I can do that do them and things like this so you know cloud we've been there for a decade but we're still I believe you know day zero day one is what Amazon always likes this is day one it's always day one so there's no way we can shove the entire reinventing keynote into this discussion so you know want to start first Tulsa rent a little bit about yourself your role what you work on and what customers you talk to sure so I studied physics and then I found out physicists don't really make any money so I became a software engineer and I worked at NASA I worked at SpaceX and worked with this company called MongoDB back then it was called Tianjin and then I am an Amazon I was my second time around in Amazon I'm a software engineer there but I'm also a Technical Evangelist and what that means is I get to travel around the world and make make all of the demos and chat with all of our customers and kind of solicit feedback from them and then kind of try to act as the voice of the customer for the service teams whenever I can get them to listen yeah so probably not going to go into open source versus software licensing of things with you because we want to make sure that we can publish I tell you space is one of those things I love it when I've interviewed people that have been in space I've talked to lots of companies that have our code in space Amazon you have I loved you know robotics and space are hard and we make it easy and I kind of laugh cuz I was an engineer as an undergrad I mean I studied a little bit of you know what it takes to break gravity and understand I always love watching you know all the shows about space and track SpaceX would you work for and things like that give me a break you haven't made space easy well I think space as a whole is getting easier this industry is becoming more approachable one of the things that we launched to reinvent this year was a ground station and this is something where if you have an S band or UHF you know satellite and leo which is low Earth orbit or mio which is medium Earth orbit you can basically down stream that data to one of these ground stations which is you know essentially attach to a region you know in this case us East 2 which is in a like Ohio area and you can go and say hey just stream this data into s3 for me or you know let me access this from my V PC which is pretty gnarly if you think about it you know you have a you have an IP address which is a satellite in space yeah I love I worked on replication technology 15 years ago and it was like okay can the application take the ping off the satellite or you know how do we do this so look we're leveraging satellites a little bit more I understand it's a great tagline to make those useful and more readily just you know it's amazing you think about when you think about my availability zones and regions it's now you know that things aren't just on the Terra Firma well I'm looking forward to the first availability zone on the on the moon or on Mars that that'll be you know when we have utopia planitia 1a that'll be the really cool AZ alright we heard the first blue origins working to Mars no well the latency you know if you have 300,000 and fit three hundred fifty thousand kilometers on average between the Earth and the moon so you know you can go around the earth it would speed of light 7.5 times every second to go to the moon is a fool I hang it's like six seven seconds or so so the latency requirements become a little bit harder there I roll more my wrong pin I have I have the Grace Hopper nanosecond which is the wit which is you know curled up and if you follow the white thing it's how long light would take to travel that and it does it in two nanoseconds so you got me I'm a physics lover and love space as does a lot of our audience so bring it down to the thing one of the things that amazon has done really well is I don't need to be a physics geek to be able to use this technology we're having arguments as to you know if I'm starting out or if I want to restart my career today do I go code or heck you know let me just use lambda and all these wonderful things that Amazon have and I might not even need to know traditional coding I mean when I learned programming you know it was you learned logic and wrote lines of code and then when you went to coding it's pulling pieces and modifying things and in the future it's it seems like serverless goes even further along that spectrum I definitely think there's opportunities for folks who have just you know I don't want to say modest coding abilities but people who were kind of you know industry adjacent scientists you know data scientists folks like that who may not necessarily be software engineers or have the they couldn't recite in Big O notation for mergesort and things like that from scratch you know but they know how to write basic code there's a lot of opportunity now for those developers and I'll call them developers to go and write a lambda function and just have it accomplishing a large portion of their business logic for their whole company I think the you know you have a spectrum of compute options you have you know ec2 on the one side and then you have containers and then as you move towards service you get this this you know spectrum between Fargate and lambda and lambda being the the chief level of abstraction but I I think in a couple cases you can you know even go further than that with things like amplify which is a service that well it's an open source project that we launched and it's also a service that we launched and it takes together a bunch of different AWS services things like app sank and kognito and lambda and it merges them all together with one CLI call you can go and say hey spin up a static site for me like a Hugo static site or something and it'll build the code pipeline build all that stuff for you without you having to you know worry about all the stuff and if developers are starting new today you know I remember when I started I really had to go deep on some of the networking stuff you know I had to learn all these different routers and like how to program them and these like the industry router so you know the million dollar ones and having to rack and stack this stuff and the knowledge is not really needed to operate of large-scale enterprise you know if you if you know a Ralph's table and you you you know V pcs you know you can run you know a multi-billion dollar company if you want yeah it's been interesting to watch too and you know I think the last five years the proliferation of services in AWS got to a point where is like oh my gosh if I wanted to kind of configure a server for my datacenter or configure an equivalent something that I wanted at AWS there was more choices in the public cloud than there was there and people like oh my gosh how do I learn it how do I do this but what we start to see is it's more don't need to do that because what do I want to do if there's an application that I can run where services that will help make it easier for me to do that because the whole it's not let me replicate what I was doing here and do it there but I have to kind of start with a clean sheet of paper and say okay well what what's the goal what data do I need what applications do I need to build and start there I'm curious what you see and how do you help companies through that so that this is a really common scenario so I this is a kind of key point here is enterprises and companies have existed since before the cloud was really around so why do we keep seeing so much uptick why do we keep seeing so many customers moving into the cloud and how do we make it easier for customers to get into the cloud with their existing workloads so along that same spectrum if you have greenfield projects if I were running my own company and I were doing everything I would absolutely start in the cloud and I would build everything as kind of cloud native and if you want to migrate these existing workloads that's part of the one of the things that we launched this year in partnership with VMware is VMware kind of interface for AWS so you can use your native vCenter and vSphere kind of control plane to access EBS to access route 53 and ec2 and all the other kind of underlying stuff that you are interested in run it you can even do RDS on VMware in my environment so that line is definitely blurring between my stuff and my stuff somewhere else and when people are talking about migrating workloads right you know you can take the lowest hanging fruit the most orthogonal piece of your infrastructure and you can say hey let me take this piece as an experimental proof of concept workload and what kind of lift and shift it into the cloud and then let me build the accoutrement the glue and all the other stuff that kind of is associated with that workload cloud native and you'll get additional agility your you know 1:1 ops person can manage this whole suite of things across 19 20 regions of AWS and you know there's kind of global availability and all this kind of good stuff that typically comes with the cloud and in addition to that as you keep moving more and more workloads over it's not like it's a static thing you know you can evolve you can adjust the application you can add new features and you can build new stuff as your move these applications over to the cloud yeah and it's interesting because just the dynamics are changing so much so there's been there's still so much movement to the cloud and then oh well some people I'm pulling stuff back and then you see you have a WS outposts so later 2019 we expect to Amazon to have you know footprint in people's environments and then you know Jeff just to make things even more complicated well the whole edge computing IOT and the like which you know everything from snowball and these pieces so the answer is it gets even more complicated but you know your your AWS I know is trying to help simplify this for use right the board I think I can say anything at all about AWS it's that if a customer is asking us to build something we are gonna do our best to make that customer happy we take customer feedback so incredibly seriously in all of our meetings all of our service team meetings you know we that voice of the customer is very strong and so if people are saying hey I want a AWS in my own datacenter you know that's kind of the genesis of outpost and it's this idea that well we have this control plane we have this hardware let's figure out how we can get it to more customers and customers are saying hey I want into my data center I want to just be able to plug in some fiber and plug in some power and I want it to work and that's the idea right we're gonna when I think of every company that I've watched there's usually something that people will gripe about and what I've been very impressed with Amazon Amazon absolutely listens and moves pretty fast to be able to address things and if you see you know if I'm a competitor of Amazon I'm like oh well you know this is the way that we get in there you know where we think we have an advantage chances are that Amazon is addressing it looking to you know move past it and you know absolutely the Amazon of 2019 is sure not the Amazon of 2018 or you know when you thought about it you know 2015 and it's big challenge for people as to because usually I think of something and you never get a second chance to make a first impression but it changes so much right everything changes that you know I need to revisit it it's like oh well this is the way I do things well Amazon has five different ways you can do that now um you know which one fits you best and I think that's important is different applications gonna have different characteristics that you want to be able to pull in and run in different ways yeah you know honestly I'm a huge fan of service I I think service is where a ton of different workloads are going to move into the future and I just see more and more companies migrating their existing you know everything from elastic Beanstalk applications so like vdq you know VMware images into the service environment and I like seeing that kind of uptick and someone recently I I can't remember who it was someone sent me a screenshot of their console with their ec2 instances in 2010 and maybe it was part of this 10-year challenge thing on Twitter where it's 2009 versus 2019 but they sent me you know they're in one large and the screenshot of the console from back then and they sent me a screenshot of 2019 and Wow things really have changed and you don't really notice it as much when you're using it every day but I can imagine you know their their Ops teams where they haven't logged into the console in three years because you know everything is done kind of in an automated fashion they set up their auto scaling group you know three years ago and then the only time they ever log in is to update to new instance types or something for the cost savings and I get messages on Twitter sometimes from people who are like whoa console got an update this is so cool and then sometimes we we get messages from people where you know we changed the EBS volume snapshotting things we had somebody who had it was like 130,000 EBS snapshots or something and they were like hey you removed my ability for me to select multiple snapshots it what it's like well you have a hundred and thirty thousand so we went in into the UI and we added a little icon that works better for large groups of snapshots you know if there's a customer pain point we will do everything we can to address it all right Randall Hunt really appreciate you sharing with us your experience what's going on with customers and absolutely that 10-year challenge we know things change fast we used to measure in decades I say now it's usually more like you know 18 to 24 months before between everything AWS in 2029 it's gonna be crazy and I can't I can't imagine what its gonna look like then all right well the cube we started broadcasting from in 2010 we appreciate you staying with us through 2019 check out the cube net for all of our programming I'm Stu minimun and thanks so much for watching the key