>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas. It's theCUBE. Covering NetApp Insight, 2018. Brought to you by NetApp. >> Hey, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of NetApp Insight 2018. From the Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas, I am Lisa Martin with Stu Miniman. And we're welcoming back one of our alumni, Brendon Howe SVP of the Cloud Volume Services at NetApp. Hey, Brendon. >> Hey. >> Thanks for taking some time to come chat with Stu and me. >> Brendon: And thank you for having me. Great to be here. >> Big event about 5,000 plus people, the keynote this morning we had a chance to go to that, and it was when we were leaving standing room only. Biggest, Jean English was saying, this is the biggest collection of customers and partners under one roof. >> That's great. >> Yeah, fantastic. You're a long time NetApp-iac. >> 12 and a half years. >> 12 and a half years young. So you've seen a lot of NetApp's transformation. >> I have. >> In the messaging and the positioning, NetApp is the data authority. We're helping customers to be hashtag data driven. Cloud is really now seeming to be at the heart of NetApp's strategy. >> Brendon: Yeah. >> Talk to us about that evolution. >> Absolutely, you always want to be positioning yourself ahead of where you are, where you want to go. Alright, you want to be perceived as the future of where you're aiming. And I think it's been clear to us for a while now that the whole dynamic and movement to cloud, is probably the most disruptive and most impactful thing that's hit traditional IT. We've lived through a lot of changes. I've been here for a lot of them, where you went to a virtualization and the way applications were deployed and the way infrastructure was deployed waves. And up and down of the economy. Those were minor speed bumps, I think, in the journey of how we get to where we want to go. The disruption of cloud, which really could be characterized as the availability of an unprecedented set of services from the biggest public clouds in the world, who happen to be the biggest companies in the world, has changed the dynamics completely. I don't know that people fully appreciate why it's been so impactful. When you talk to customers, what you hear is they go to the cloud for agility and speed. It's not really a cost discussion of where are compute instances or bits or storage cheaper, one or the other. It's an agility argument. And what cloud brings to them is unprecedented pace of change, of adoption, of speed of line of business. That they can't reproduce otherwise. So, I think it's really important, that we aim ahead of where we want to be, which is really a cloud-first, data-oriented company. And that's why you see so much of that messaging from us. >> Brendan, it's really interesting, I think back. If I turn back the clock a dozen years ago, we didn't talk about software defines. >> Brendon: No. >> Yet, there were certain companies out there that storage, it was like, okay, we're going to create software for storage. Well, no, that was some software that ran on their box and only on their box. >> Brendon: That's right. >> You know, NetApp was the hipster software defines storage company, right? They were software before anybody else was. When you talk about NetApp in this cloud world, I think it's taken a while to come into focus. I remember back at the early solutions it was like, oh, let's stick a filer in a data center direct-connect it, we can offer some services. But the nirvana we've been trying to reach is storage services, available lots of different places. Can you walk us through some of that? Philosophically where NetApp's going? >> Yup, I think that's a good observation. I would say, think back four or five years ago, which I still think most of the industry's in at the moment, the notion of working with cloud was largely a connect-to-cloud theory. As you describe, where you have systems that would interconnect into the cloud. Or even leap into that world of taking an operating system and having it run in a VM in the cloud. I think of that as a cloud-connected strategy. And customers were intrigued, but what we often heard from them is it really can't be consumed as a cloud service. And it really can't be part of my traditional build with Azure, Google, or AWS. So, it's interesting, but it's an adjacency. And what we're really looking for are native cloud services. So, we took that to heart and really retrenched our effort to figure out how to build Cloud Data Services that behaved every bit like a native cloud service from the big cloud companies. All the way through to metered billing, provisioned and managed through the native portals of those cloud companies. Other than a brand label here and there, a customer may not even know it's NetApp. That's how cloud-oriented these services are. I think that's what it's going to take to be successful in this space. And you do that across multiple clouds with a quest towards going after market share. At the end of the day, you want to be relevant in as many cloud instances as exist, so you aim at the big cloud companies and you aim at global scale. I think that was what the learnings that we had through that journey is, it's not enough to reference architectures or software ports to the cloud, you really have to think about native services. There clearly, you have to find unique value, you have to do something that's not available otherwise, which is par for the course, but you also have to look at levels of integration that make it very, very easy to consume. And in the cloud, that's an unprecedented level of simplicity. >> One of the big challenges of the multi-cloud world is, it would be really nice if it was just a utility. People always say, oh well, I'm going to choose a cloud, and I can change things. Well, as you said, there's differentiation in the cloud. If you go talk to Amazon, Google and Microsoft, they're not all saying. no longer is it the race to the bottom. >> Absolutely. >> When you talk about partnering with the clouds, how do you provide, you need to provide unique differentiation, you need to integrate with all of the different players, yet, customers would love to be able to, oh, it's just a Kubernetes service and I use this deal and I move things around. How do you balance and deal with that complicated nuanceness of what multi-cloud really is? >> I think that the starting point is being good at a cloud in something. Right, and then you build on that competency. The Big Bang theory of going in and helping a customer with a hybrid cloud scenario that extends to multi-cloud is sort of the longest term vision of where they might end up over time. So, to some extent, it's the hardest problem to take on first. So if you core that back a little bit saying, let's focus on a use case that runs on the cloud to get started, and we'll build on that. The true fashion of, start small, iterate, grow, earn monthly recurring revenue, build under success and go is really the nature of the beast of what we're trying to do. Each of the cloud environments, tend to have real core competents that leads customers there in the first place. I don't know that you can ever listen to discussions from AWS without hearing about the breadth of their platform as a service. And how attractive it's been to the development in the DevOps community. Or you swing over and talk to Google, it's all about machine learning and analytics and tensor data flow, and all of that big query type stuff. And you swing over to Azure, and you hear about linking to the enterprise with traditional applications now enabled to run natively in the cloud. You follow those paths toward use case success and figure out how to build those solution stack with real value for the customer. So, we're trying to bring Cloud Volume Services into the fold, not as infrastructure as a service that's an option as well that might be faster, but tether that to real use cases where, look people are trying to move SAP HANA environments into the cloud; can we help? People are trying to figure out how to run database in the cloud; can we help? People are trying to figure out how to run analytics on file data that may even be collected on-prem; how can we help? You get into those types of discussions and start building validation, and it gets a lot easier to begin the journey of getting involved. I do think a multi-cloud world is the reality where people end up. As I do a hybrid-cloud. But customers have to work their way through that implementation in order to achieve that outcome. I think that's a long journey for a lot of customers. And I think there's a lot of technology that still has to be built to realize that full vision, the point is we're focused on that. I think we're on the right path, and if you saw the keynote this morning Anthony gave a nice preview of some of the data fabric vision that really showed snippets of how that plays out. A lot of which is available today. Which is pretty cool. >> Last question, and about a minute left, Brendon, NetApp is very customer focused, very customer-centric >> Brendon: Always has been. >> Exactly. Massive install base, as George was addressing this morning. A lot of enterprise customers not born in the cloud, those who are digital, those who are now. And last question, how have your customers helped influence the evolution of Cloud Volume Services? >> In a variety of ways. At times the traditional NetApp customer, that runs with things on-prem, is the most complex customer for services in the cloud because they're expectations are take everything the way they run on premise, and reproduce that in the cloud. And that's just simply not practical. Because you're in a new environment with new circumstances with new economics that make that achievement for a customer near impossible to do. To some extent, you have to sort of reprogram the traditional NetApp customer to understand, the cloud is different. The compare is not against us on-premise, the compare is the services in the cloud today that we look to improve upon. So that's one aspect of it. But clearly, a lot of our customers here at the show have decades of experience in leveraging the features we have into application environments that exist in the cloud today as well. And as it turns out, efficient handling of data, still is a problem. Having a reliable and dependable way to do backup and recovery is still a problem for customers. The ability to deal with bulk data from a backup and archive perspective, it's still a problem. So, I think a lot of the themes are the same and that the technology applies, but it has to be built differently because of the ecosystems that we're going in. I think the customers here are beginning to realize that, and then you bring in the wildcards of what's happening with Kubernetes and the drive towards application provisioning and how all of that can be linked to our solution set. We bring a lot of new opportunity that is different than the way traditional on-premises worked. >> Is that just one of the biggest barriers initially, was helping these large incumbent enterprises realize that it isn't possible to just go from on-prem to cloud, poof? >> Yes, I think so. The whole notion of taking the exact configuration, by the way, they custom tuned, and said I want to do that exact same thing in the cloud. It turns out that the configuration options in global cloud services just simply aren't available to do that. So you have to rework your customer's minds set, into the proper compare, and set expectations the right way. >> Lisa: It's all an evolution. Well, Brendon thanks so much for stopping by >> Thank you. >> and having a chat with Stu and me. We appreciate it. >> Thank you, it was a pleasure. >> We want to thank you for watching theCUBE, Lisa Martin with Stu Miniman. We are at NetApp Insight 2018 from Vegas, we'll be back with our next guest shortly. 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>>Welcome to this cube conversation. I'm john Kerry host of the cube here in Palo alto California. We got a hot startup doing new things differently. The new way the cloud native way brendon, Hannigan, Ceo of sun rays securities. They deliver an awesome new solutions platform on all clouds to change the game and how security is done Brendan. Thanks for joining me on this cube conversation. >>Really nice to talk to you today, john >>you know, I loved showcasing companies that are, that are thinking about their entire optimizing their efforts to bring in the new, the new way to do things. And we certainly with the pandemic we've seen and everyone's validating this general global consensus that cloud scale and devops and def sec apps is generating a new kind of modern applications and this is just clearly has been known for a while inside the industry, but now it's mainstream. You guys are building a company around this notion of security. So let's get into it. What do you guys do is get right to it? What's the product? >>Well, firstly to get going And before getting into the specifics of product, john just I like to frame it, which is the ways in which I started out as a software engineer. You know, a long, long time ago built a company based on classic, traditional ways of developing software. The way we develop software has just changed dramatically change from stem to stern. We've gone from monolithic applications to microservices. We've gone from 18 month development cycles to two weeks from business units and I. T. Controlling it to devoPS teams. And then the amazing this is the incredible thing from a security perspective is we used to call up people in traditional networks and data centers to reconfigure the firewall so I could put my application of data center. But now I represented in code infrastructure is code that basically represents the infrastructure I have shows up in of course the cloud. The reason why I'd like to explain this story is we talk about cloud security and the complexities of cloud security. That's just where it all comes together. The reality is everything has changed around it. And we have a simple belief if everything has changed in terms of how it is, you build technology, value, deploy it and operators, we have to change how it is reduced security and it has to be also from stem to stern. So that's what basically that's why we started this business. Our mission is simple. We want to reinvent how it is. People secure new technology in these new environments and we do it by building a service that sits on top of companies usage of cloud amazon as your google cloud. And we help find risks automatically, eliminate them, Make sure they never come back and then deliver incredible new ways of continuously monitor activity to prevent cyber security incidents from happening in the first place. >>So this reinvention is a big, big trend. We've talked about this on the cube, you know, with many guests, even Pat Gelsinger's now the ceo of intel. When was that VM ware told us that you need to do over it in security, got to redo it all, not just incremental improvement. You know, fundamental revolutionary change was you're basically getting out here. So the question is top to bottom reinvention totally get that. How do you do it? Okay, Do you change the airplane engine out of 30,000 ft? It's hard people, it's easier said than done. What are the elements to reinvent security >>in this? We have we have a magical opportunity here because of cloud. So what happens is into traditional data centers and the traditional enterprise networks, There's, there's kind of Control points that are traditionally, which we understand and security John, right. And it's built up over 2030, 50 years. Right. And there's certain ways around which we rotate our security controls and you're familiar with them, right? Firewalls, Endpoint, antivirus security, information, security, event management system. Think of all those things, those control points are not relevant in the cloud. It's not, it's, they're interesting. V p c s and narrow grooves are kind of interesting in the cloud. Totally insufficient. So there's a necessity to reinvent and there's new control points and I will then tell you why it leads with an incredible better result. The new control points of the cloud, we believe and strenuously push when we speak to our customers, our identities. And it's not about Brandon and john, it's nearly always about non people identities, serverless functions, pieces of compute containers, all of these things have rights to like people. The second control point our data. Where is it? We used to have a data center. It's in the word, it says it data center, but in this instance I may have 20 devops teams. Each one of them is using RDS. One of them is using elastic cash. One of them is using a different thing. So data is the second one. The third one is applications. Why is this so important? The service providers have done a great job with core infrastructure. They give us two mechanisms to set up these environments. We need to help our customers organize and reinvent our security around these three pillars. The reason why it's so important, I love what you said is God, we've got to start from scratch. You get to start from scratch and when you do it, you actually can deliver a level of granularity and control and security that is unimaginable in the traditional enterprise network and data center. >>It's like golf, you got an extra Mulligan off the T if you hit it out of bounds and security, you get a do over. This is this is an opportunity. I love that concept because this is I mean it's not many times you get this clean sheet of paper or the opportunity to to pivot or reinvent or refresh re platform re factor whatever word you use. This is a time >>once in our life this transition, we know digital transformation is transforming industries, every industry is feeling it. We can see and understand the significance of the inventions like like AWS, it's an amazing invention, the power of it and what it delivers to us. The opportunity which is a must take opportunity is reinventing security from top to bottom. And by the way if you don't do it, if you just do this kind of half I have asked you end up with a mess on your hands if you do it properly, you end up in a better place than you would have been a traditional enterprise network and data center. >>The old expression you gotta burn the boats to get people motivated to kind of get it done right with the cloud. Let me ask you questions. Identity security and the data secure. Love that perspective because Identity the first thing in terms in my head when you said that was I thought about the identity of the individual their I. D. You know and you could actually get down to the firmware of a phone or you know to fact multifactor authentication. I get that access authentication. You're talking more in terms of other naming spaces and naming systems like specifically around services and applications identity, not just users. Right? >>Can you expand more on that? We we we we understand this as many people now understand this at a superficial level, but they haven't truly understand stood what's under the hood of what's happening inside cloud when you have reinvented applications, microservices, applications, auto scaling applications, it's all cloud is about incredible innovation happening across teams. What happens in the cloud is you have developers, administrators creating workloads. Those work clothes have huge numbers of compute functions which could be a container, a compute instance, a serverless function. They're gaining access to resources, other compute resources, cues and data to give you a sense of scale job you could have a company. It's not unusual. 80,000 pieces of compute 20,000 active at a particular point in time. We've got companies and then they assume these roles which give them access and rights to do things on these cloud services. It's not unusual to have 10,000 rolls in a cloud environment across multiple different accounts. Now, you see the identities, these pieces of compute have rights to do things. That's good because I can restrict what they do. It can be bad because if I don't have a handle on it, it's a mess. By the way, when you talk about this scale, human beings can't process this much information must be able to understand the risks, configure and automate remediation of these risks. The cloud providers give us the tools to build these flexible workloads. They're incredibly flexible. The dark side of it is in experience and basically inefficient deployment of those tools can lead to a whole host of risks that, quite frankly a lot of customers don't fully appreciate yet. >>And then people call that day to operation. But I love this idea of identity, the thousands and thousands of services out there because with microservices and you're seeing coming out of the cloud native world is these these new kinds of services could be stood up and torn down very quickly. So, you know, the observe ability trend is a great indicator in my opinion of this whole, you know, manic focus on data. So, you know, because you need machines to know, you don't know if something could be terminated and and stood up not even knowing about it, it could be errors. How do you log it? Right. So this is just an example. What's your thoughts on that? What's your reaction? Is that right? >>Ephemeral nature is the beauty of cloud. Right. Because, you know, there's problems that even now when we build our, we have a cloud native application ourselves and when we have a problem sometimes, of course we can go in and spin up 400 servers to go solve a problem and spin them back down half an hour later. We couldn't do that before a cloud. We can actually have developers doing this incredible rapid work with serverless functions to go and interrogate data to go out of data. Like to go and do analytics. It's wonderful. But what you said is their ephemeral. Now, just think about an environment. 20,000 pieces of compute 10,000 active, lots of 20 different teams across a 50 amazon accounts. Somebody comes in and basically during a period of time compromises. It compromises something and gets access to data, but it's a federal, it just comes and goes, we have to know that we have to know what's possible. We have to know if it's happened and then we have to basically greatly minimize the possibility of that happened. My promise because I'm security people are always trying to scare everybody which is valid. However, my promise the power of this cloud has created complexity opportunities but actually it also gives us the solution because using analytics machine learning in our case graphing technologies, we can actually find these things and give micro control two workloads so that actually we can see these things and automatically eliminate these risks and that was impossible >>in the the automation is programmable. You can actually set policies around automation. Pretty cool. I gotta ask you about get to the technical and want to understand the graphics and the platform more. But I want to ask you the question on the reinvention. If I follow your your playbook Yes. What's the end results? Can you take me through the all in bet the redo what happens? Can you just take me through the day in the life of an outcome? What's it look like and walk me through that? >>So firstly what the outcome I want to give our clients is they have these complex cloud environment spreading across, you know, any, even a moderate sized enterprise. What I basically want to be able to give our clients and when we have delivered for our clients is they basically managed to break that cloud from being this amorphous thing into specific work clothes. Each and every one of those workloads have specific controls in place that understand how that workload should operate in this environment across staging development and production. And actually we're able to essentially locked down what it is these workloads can do from an identity perspective, a data access perspective, a platform rights perspective and then monitor anything that changes. That's one thing. So the complexity were actually able to push away the complexity leveraged up lower to give that level of granularity at very deep levels. Identity, data platform. The second thing, actually, and this is john again, what's possible will clown? It doesn't it can't be all security teams, its security needs, It could be audit teams, its developers. So we have customers who have onboard tens and tens and tens of teams onto our platform. Why do we do that when we're finding issues and finding things that need to be resolved for directing it directly to the development teams? So we're saying developer to get into production, you're going to have to fix your identity set up in this environment. It's too risky, but it doesn't have to go to the security team. The security team will only hear about it if the developer doesn't fix it. >>Got it. So they're proactive, >>we're involving the teams responsible for creation and resolution of issues. The security and cloud teams are setting up the ground rules for a workload to operate in this environment and now we've got a level of granularity across workloads, whether they're in production or not. That basically is wonderful. That's the that's the ultimate endgame. >>What's the uh status of the vision and product on execution uh where your customers at now? Um how do you feel about it? Where is it going? Can you share a little bit about the roadmap and kind of where the product is? Uh It's a huge vision, it sounds easy to do, but it's not >>it's not actually and, you know, underlying it also, we actually, we've production service, we have wonderful, very large customers who are deployed and operational on our platform. You know, an example of one of them would be world fuel services, fortunate 93 company were the center of their kind of new security environment and operating model for everything they're doing and cloud. It's a beautiful story job. They've gone from in, in, you know, a few years ago. They 22 to the centers today to to yeah, it's unbelievable. And now all that future real estate were the center of that cloud security operating model. What does it mean? A 50 ft plus different teams on boarded onto the platform, following the rules of the road. If they don't follow the rules where all the exceptions are coming in and we're doing a continuous monitoring process underneath it. What is it that we've done? That's interesting. We actually have this incredible, unique way of collecting information from the cloud so that we can gather it in a very uh continuous way. So we're constantly seeing what's happening in addition to interrogating A PS and clouds are actually monitoring logs so we can see all the actions, what you just said. By the way, something comes and goes, we see it. The second thing which we do is we gather the information. We build a graph. This was actually, this was hard because it's not just as simple as sticking things in a graph with all of it to be. But what is the graph doing? The graph is basically understanding the intricacies of all the identity and access management models. I can see everything that can do anything to any other resource in the cloud, right? There is a surplus functioning container or a VM And we boil it down to very simple things. So underneath it's complex. We represented grass with boiling two simple things. Then we run analytics across the graph too, find and eliminate plaque from risk, find and eliminate identity risk. Get customers to the privilege enforced separation of duties, find data that you may not know is there that has incredible amounts of things capable of accessing it and help our customers lockdown that access. And then finally had we getting it into an operational automation kind of pipeline so that basically on an ongoing operational perspective it's efficient. So we're actually doing this for customers. We've got some very large financial institution customers. We've got, you know, large customers like World Fuel Services. And now actually our mission this year is to actually help simplify a lot of what we're describing so that, you know, you know, other companies and maybe companies not as sophisticated as a big financial institution or World Fuel Services is able to just very quickly get the value out of a solution. Like, >>you know, when you have these new technologies, new way of doing things, it's exciting at the same time, you have to kind of vector into an environment where the customer is ready to be operationalized. So, um, I got to ask you about how um teams are forming. I've I've been having a lot of conversation with VPs of engineering, large enterprises and and also big companies and hyper scale as well. And they're all talking about how, because of what you're doing and the kind of the general philosophy that you're you guys have is changing how teams are organized. You have a platform engineer now who can work on a platform and then flex and go work with other say feature engineers. And so it used to be just to do your features, You got your platform guys, you got your networking people. Okay, now you don't have to talk to the networking people because you can abstract away the network. You now have more composite, more compose herbal applications with all the observe ability. And now you can actually build that foundational platform. Redeploy the platform engineers with the other teams. So you seem like and then you got sRS embedded into teams and so you kind of got this new engineering formation going on, new kind of ways to organize the new modern era is here, it's on on this, this how people organize their teams. >>Actually is. There's no, there's no entire recipe at because you go to different customers and customers are basically experimenting with different ways to organize their teams. There's no question. But actually, I think one thing that's changed in the last 18 months is companies realizing we definitely need to change how it is. We've organized our team. I'm going to give you a simple example. Again in the old world, they would have network teams and network security teams you call up, Let me re configure the firewall. That doesn't work. It's just, it's just so broken. It can't work in clarity, can't be calling on people to re configure a firewall. That's an example. Another example which companies are realizing the latest identity. They will go through an approval process and they go through a governance and certification process. Well, these, these teams in the class, they want to get to work out in into, they need to get it in a month in an hour, in an hour. They can take a month and a manual approval processes sort of realizing that you need a skill set antiseptic ground rules and then the teams should be allowed to innovate within the ground rules. That's what the platform teams need to do. And so what we see emerging, which I think is a really best practice, is cloud centers of excellence. They're responsible for what I would call the shared infrastructure of the enterprise. The 250 Amazon accounts for 50 is your subscriptions, whatever it is that is king. Then the devoPS teams are using this shared infrastructure. The question is, how do you interface, how do you help coordinate between these different responsibilities from a security and governance and risk perspective? And that's actually what a big part of what our product is, helping teams coordinate their activities. That's a big part of what our product is, >>love. The first principles, they're sitting those ground rules. I mean there's been a chef and a cook, you know, you know, working with the environment and putting the new ingredients together and then getting that operational. It's a huge opportunity. Great stuff. Brandon. I gotta ask you the final question. Well I got you here, Sunrise Securities, the name Sunray. Where'd that come from? What does it mean? >>It actually means it's a Gaelic word and it means data and it's just so central to you know, what are people trying to steal? Like we can talk about security we're going to face. But at the end of the day they're trying to do damage. You're trying to get access to data. That's the most valuable thing we're trying to protect. So that's why we put it in our name. >>Digital transformation, everything's data now, everything's data, content, data Securities, data, data is everything >>it is. and I did >>great stuff. Brendan. Thank you for sharing the story here on the cube conversation, Brennan Hannigan's ceo of suddenly secure. Thanks for joining me. >>Thank you very much, john, it was a great pleasure. >>Okay. It's the cube from Palo alto California remote. Still. Thanks for watching.

>>Live from Barcelona, Spain, execute covering CubeCon cloud native con Europe, 2019 onto you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back. We're here in Barcelona, Spain where 7,700 attendees are here for Q con cloud native con. I'm Stu Miniman and this is the cubes live two day coverage having to have on the program to returning guests to talk about five years of Kubernetes. To my right is Tim Hawkin wearing the Barna contributors shirt. Uh, and uh, sitting to his right is gay Bon Roy. So, uh, I didn't introduce their titles and companies, but you know, so Tim's and Google gives it Microsoft, uh, but you know, heavily involvement in uh, you know, Coobernetti's since the very early days. I mean, you know, Tim, you're, you're on the Wikipedia page game, you know, I think we have to do some re editing to make sure we get the community expanded in some of the major contributors and get you on there. But gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having us. >>Alright. Uh, so, you know, Tim just spoke to Joe Beda and we talked about, you know, the, the, the idea of, you know, Craig and Brendan and him sitting in the room and, you know, open source and, you know, really bringing this out there to community. But let's start with you. Cause he, you know, uh, I remember back many times in my career like, Oh, I read this phenomenal paper about Google. You know, we're going to spend the next decade, you know, figuring out the ripple effect of this technology. Um, you know, Coobernetti's has in five years had a major impact on, on what we're doing. Uh, it gives a little bit of your insight is to, you know, what you've seen from those early days, you know. >>Yeah. You know, um, in the early days we had the same conversations we produced. These papers are, you know, seminal in the industry. Um, and then we sort of don't follow up on them sometimes as Google. Um, we didn't want this to be that, right. We wanted this to be alive living thing with a real community. Uh, that took root in a different way than MapReduce, Hadoop sort of situation. Um, so that was very much front of mind as we work through what are we going to build, how are we going to build and how are we going to manage it? How are we going to build a community? How, how do you get people involved? How do you find folks like Gaiman and Deus and get them to say we're in, we want to be a part of this. >>All right, so Gabe, it was actually Joe corrected me when I said, well, Google started it and they pulled in some other like-minded vendors. Like he said, no, no stew. We didn't pull vendors in. We pulled in people and people that believed in the project and the vision, you were one of those people that got pulled in early. He were, you know, so help give us a little context in your, your viewpoint. I did. And, and, and you know, at the time I was working for a company, uh, called, uh, that I had started and we were out there trying to make developers more productive in industry using modern technology like containers. And you know, it was through the process of trying to solve problems for customers, sort of the lens that I was bringing, uh, to this where, um, I was introduced to some really novel technology approaches first through Docker. >>Uh, and you know, I was close with Solomon hikes, the, the founder over there. Uh, and then, you know, started to work closely with folks at Google, uh, namely Brendon burns, who I now work with at Microsoft. Um, you know, part of the, the founding Kubernetes team. Uh, and I, I agree with that statement that it is really about people. It's really about individual connections at the end of the day. Um, I think we do these things that at these coupons, uh, events called the contributor summits. And it's very interesting because when folks land at one of these summits, it's not about who you work for, what Jersey you're wearing, that sort of thing. It's people talking to people, trying to solve technical problems, trying to solve organizational challenges. Uh, and I think, you know, the, the phenomenon that's happened there and the scale with which that's happened is part of the reason why there's 8,000 people here in Barcelona today. >>Yeah. It's interesting to him cause you know, I used to be involved in some standards work and I've been, you know, working with the open source community for about 20 years. It used to be ah, you know, it was the side project that people did at nights and everything like that. Today a lot of the people that are contributing, well they do have a full time job and their job will either let them or asking them to do that. So I do talk to people here that when they're involved in the working groups, when they're doing these things, yes. You think about who their paycheck comes for, but that's secondary to what they're doing as part of the community. And it is, you know, some of the people what, what >>absolutely. It's part of the ethos of the project that the project comes first and if company comes second or maybe even third. Uh, and for the most part, this has been wildly successful. Uh, there's this huge base of trust among, uh, among the leadership and among the contributors. Um, and you know, it's, it's a big enough project now that I don't know every one of the contributors, but we have this web of trust. And, you know, I, I have this, this army of people that I know and I trust very well and they know people and they know people and it works out that the project has been wildly successful and we've never yet had a major conflict or strife that centered on company this or company that. >>Yeah. And I don't, I'd also add that it's an important development has happened in the wake of Kubernetes where, you know, for example, in my teams at Microsoft, I actually have dedicated PM and engineering staff where their only job is to focus on community engagements, right? Running the release team for communities one 15 or working on IPV six support or windows container support. Uh, and, and that work, that upstream work, uh, puts folks in contact with people from all different companies, Google, uh, uh, you know, Microsoft working closely together on countless initiatives. Uh, and the same is true really for the entire community. So I think it's really great to see that you can get not just sort of the interpersonal interactions. We can also get sort of corporate sponsorship of that model. Cause I do think at the end of the day people need to get their paychecks. Uh, and oftentimes that's going to come from a big company. Uh, and, and seeing that level of investment is, I think, uh, pretty encouraging. Okay. Well, you know, luckily five years in we've solved all the problems and everything works perfectly. Um, if that's not maybe the case, where do we need people involved? What things should we be looking at? Kind of the, the, the next year or two in this space, you know, a project >>of this size, a community of this size, a system of this scope has infinite work to do, right? The, the, the barrel is never going to be empty. Um, and in some cases it's filling faster than it's draining. Um, every special interest group, every SIG, it has a backlog of issues of things that they would like to see fixed of features that they have some user pounding the table saying, I need this thing to work. Uh, IPV six is a great example, right? And, and we have people now stepping up to take on these big issues because they have customers who need it or they see it as important foundational work for building future stuff. Um, so, you know, there's, there's no shortage of work to do. That's not just engineering work though, right? It's not just product definition or API. We have a, what we call a contributor experience. People who work with our community to entre online, uh, new contributors and um, and, and streamline how to get them in and involved in documentation and testing and release engineering. And there's so much sort of non-core work. Uh, I could go on on this for. >>Yeah, you're just reminding me of the session this morning is I don't manage clusters. I manage fleets. And you have the same challenge with the people. Yeah. And I also had another dimension to this about just the breadth of contribution. We were just talking before the show that, um, you know, outside at the logo there is this, uh, you know, characters, book characters, and such. And really that came from a children's book that was created to demonstrate core concepts, uh, to developers who were new to Kubernetes. And it ended up taking off and it was eventually donated to the CNCF. Um, but things like that, you can't underestimate the importance and impact that that can have on making sure that Kubernetes is accessible to a really broad audience. Okay. Uh, yeah, look, I want to give you both a, just the, the, the final word as to w what you shout out, you one for the community and uh, yeah. And any special things that have surprised you or exciting you? Uh, you know, here in 2019, >>uh, you know, exciting is being here. If you rewind five years and tell me I'm going to in Barcelona with with 7,500 of my best friends, uh, I would think you are crazy or are from Mars. Um, this is amazing. And uh, I thank everybody who's here, who's made this thing possible. We have a ton of work to do. Uh, and if you feel like you can't figure out what you need to work on, come talk to me and we'll, we'll figure it out. >>Yeah. And for me, I just want to give a big thank you to all the maintainers folks like Tim, but also, you know, some other folks who, you know, may, you may not know their name but they're the ones slogging it out and to get hub PRQ you know, trying to just make the project work and function day to day and were it not for their ongoing efforts, we wouldn't have any of this. So thank you to that. Well and look, thank you. Of course, to the community and thank you both for sharing with our community. We're always happy to be a small piece of a, you know, helping to spread the word and uh, give some voice to everything that's going on here. Thank you so much. All right, so we will be back with more coverage here from coupon cloud native con 2019 on Stu Miniman and thank you for watching the cube.

>> Announcer: Live, from Austin, Texas, it's theCube, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Linux Foundation, and theCube's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, live here. This is theCube's exclusive coverage, live in Austin, Texas for Cloud Native Con and KubeCon with The Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier, the founder. Silicon Angle Media, my cohost Stu Miniman, and next to us Joe Beda, who's the co-founder, co-founder and CTO of Heptio With Craig McLuckie, the famous startup that came out of the Google team, really one of the principal founders of Kubernetes with Craig and the team Brendon Burns and the like. Great to have you on theCube, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much for having me, it's exciting. >> Good time, first time on theCube, glad to have you, we've been trying to get your perspective because obviously we're fans of the Kubernetes, I just had Lou Tucker on, we were talking interclouding and some orchestration opportunity. You guys had that vision and it's really important to tell the story, at the beginning with Kubernetes. You guys were sitting around, having a little beer, free food at the Google cafeteria, what was it like? What happened? How did it all come together? >> All right well, I started at Google probably 10, 12 years ago, did a whole bunch of stuff but eventually landed doing cloud. Craig and I started up a Google compute engine, VM as a service and the odd thing to recognize is that nobody who had been at Google for a long time thought that there was anything to this VM stuff. Because Google had been on containers for so long, that was their mindset, Borg was the way that stuff was actually deployed, so my boss at the time, who's now in Cloud Era booted up a VM for the first time, and anybody in the outside world would be like hey, that's really cool and his response was like, well now what? You're sitting at a prompt, that's not super interesting, how do I run my app? That's what everybody's been struggling with with Cloud, it's not how do I get a VM, how do I actually run my code? As Google got more and more serious about Cloud, every big company wants to dog food their products. How do we make the experience that folks inside of Google have, developers inside of Google have, match the experience that Cloud customers have? The choice there was either we make everybody inside of Google start using VM's which would have felt like that step backwards, or we teach the rest of the world about Borg. Now around the same time, docker started getting a lot of attention and we were like hey, those guys are onto something, they really found a good way to make this technology accessible to users on a single node level, but our experience at Google really taught us that that clusters you, how do you actually create this abstraction that a whole bunch of computers are one thing that you operate with? That was the thing that was going to be interesting and so out of that, we decided Kubernetes was going to be the thing or at least getting Borg out to the rest of the world, and we knew for it to be effective, it couldn't just be Google doing it alone, we had to do it in a way that would bring the rest of the industry with us. That's the motivation behind Kubernetes. It took us about another three months to convince all the folks at Google that this was a good idea, it was controversial, the open source projects at the time were things like, the biggest things would be like Chrome and Android. Those things were, the relationship with their community was very different from what we were aiming for with Kubernetes, they were much more consumer focused versus infrastructure focused. >> It was early too for Google to recognize the multi cloud world. >> I think some it wasn't so much multi cloud as much as developers have a really strong sense of where the lock in is, where the vendor lock in is, and we knew that if we wanted to win the hearts and minds of engineers and developers and folks that took this stuff seriously, as the underdog in the cloud world at the time, you had to really go out there and build something that was going to be widely applicable. Because you don't want to invest your time and energy into something that's super specialized to one cloud and I think the whole multi cloud thing, honestly I think it's engineers and developers and operations folks that had that sense from the get go, we were just reacting to that. >> Good instincts too. Kubernetes certainly working out today, state of the union, cause we're still only less than three years old as a community, seems like 20, but the momentum's been amazing, has been a lot of revision, a lot of people have their own versions of Kubernetes, yet there's a core, vanilla Kubernetes, but it's working. People have gotten around this. What is the big thing that has surprised you the most and where are you most excited right now, where Kubernetes is at? >> Okay surprise, there's 4100 people here at KubeCon, that's absolutely insane. I think we had this idea that it could be a thing and that, but I don't think that any of us imagined that within three years we'd be sitting here, doing this type of thing. That I think for me is the most surprising. It's a challenge to take these ideas that have been successful inside at Google and translate those to the rest of the world and it wasn't an easy or obvious thing, there were a lot of good ideas but figuring out how to get those out there, I think that really is due to the larger community. Folks like Clayton Pullman from Red Hat coming in early with a lot of that really brought a lot of that outside DNA necessary to bridge that gap. Surprising that we got here, but really it took the community to make that happen. In terms of what I'm most excited about right now, with the announcement of EKS from Amazon, it definitely feels like we're moving into a new phase of Kubernetes where folks are being much more focused on what do you do with Kubernetes versus how do you get Kubernetes running. Kelsey tweeted it the other day, but I think we've been saying for a while, Kubernetes at its heart is a platform for building platforms, really we viewed it from the start as a toolbox and I think we're only now starting to see, what other things are people going to be building with that toolbox and I think that's going to be that larger ecosystem, is going to be much larger than Kubernetes itself. >> Joe, coming into this show, there were so many announcements around Kubernetes, there's like 42 certified different versions out there. I think you could help explain a little bit because there's the big cloud guys, you mentioned Clayton who we had earlier from Red Hat, there's all these companies, oh well, Kubernetes is just like it's a piece and it's in there. Your company is around Kubernetes, so what does this mean that Kubernetes is, I guess we'd say commoditized across there, I think it's a good thing for the industry, but what does it mean, why is there a need for Heptio and what do you guys see as your role in the ecosystem? >> There's a bunch of folks that are really concentrating on how do I get Kubernetes up and running and that's one thing, and I think that landscape is going to be changing and evolving over time. We're definitely happy to help folks be successful with Kubernetes, it's one of those things we're going to do, we're going to do an open source project, services, support and training with that, but when we look forward, I think a big part of it is, how do we bridge the gap to integrate Kubernetes into businesses, how do we start building those next layer tools on top of it and to some degree, it's a wild west. There's those 42 companies, everybody's trying to actually find something that's going to be interesting, start solving problems, but the thing that's really encouraging to me is that Kubernetes is the base and we're doing work, both Heptio and the community around conformance to make sure that we actually have a solid base that folks can build on top of. Then everybody's focused on how can we actually capture the attention of developers, how can we actually deliver value there and so that's a really great dynamic, when everybody's like I want to do something really great that people are going to get a lot out of, only good things are going to come from that. >> Yeah and I liked, there was a concern some people had, oh last week AWS is now all in, they've got EKS, but you had an announcement about the Heptio authenticator open source authentication, a little bit of a partnership with AWS it looked like. Maybe explain, it sounds like one of the things you're building on top of this. >> Yeah exactly. Like everybody else, we had heard all the rumors, hey is Amazon going to do a Kubernetes offering or not. In our mind, there were two ways. >> Didn't they have to Joe? >> Well that's what I thought last year, but who knows, I think Amazon doesn't have to do anything but when we first started Kubernetes, we reached out to the folks at Amazon including Deepak and we're like hey, you guys are welcome, come join us here and they were like yeah, yeah, we'll join you when the customers are asking for it. Well it turns out the customers were asking for it, so here they are and I think it's a great thing. I think it could've gone two ways, they could have built in a bunch of integrations into Kubernetes that were only available through EKS that really made EKS a more integrated, better Kubernetes than running open source Kubernetes on top of Amazon, or they could've worked with the community, with upstream to try and make Kubernetes run great on Amazon, better on Amazon as is but then run even better when you're running it with EKS and they actually have the management on top of it. I think they decided to go that second route which is much more community friendly. A couple weeks before the announcement, they reached out to us, said hey, we noticed you had this project, it looks really interesting, we need a way to bridge IM to authenticate to Kubernetes and we like the approach that you're taking, can we work together to continue to develop this and that was the first signal to us that they wanted to really reach out and work with the community and so we're like hey, that sounds great, let's work together and get that stuff out there. It's still very early, I think EKS is GA next year, they set an aggressive goal for themselves, so I'm really looking forward to see where they take that and we're going to partner with them where it makes sense around things like authenticator. >> You mentioned we're going to a whole other level with Kubernetes and Amazon's announcement goes to the next level, you also mentioned you worked at Google Compute, Apple, all these other cool names with Google and you got Heptio, you're solving making interesting things happen with Kubernetes and you got a new class of developers coming in that have never heard of what a local director is. Infrastructure as code is happening, so you got the cloud game going on. I got to ask you, as Kubernetes starts to continue to take shape, a lot of people are trying to survive. In this technical architecture decisions, almost a tech chess game, which side of history will you be on thing going on and customers want more clarity. You have a lot of movement and customers want clarity. How do you see it continuing and what is the right path in your mind because it's looking good right now and commoditization as some say, I think is a good thing because value, there's value in interoperability, there's value in orchestration, there's value in a new class of web developer creating, solving problems with code, whether it's societal problems or other things, so there's a lot of big picture, wholistic things happening and Kubernetes kind of strikes at the heart of that. What's the right path in your mind, what's the vision you think Kubernetes should go into. >> Well I think first of all, I think change happens in the industry both fast and slow. It feels like it's been three years since Kubernetes, since we open sourced Kubernetes, and it's come a huge way since then. That happened really fast. You look at Enterprise, you look at Enterprise adoption cycles, I believe last I heard the mainframe division was a growing profit center for IBM. This stuff doesn't go away so as we see things like containers and Kubernetes and serverless and cloud, as we see these things come on the scene, it doesn't necessarily replace stuff, it augments and it adds over time so we see the mix of where people invest shift. In that way, things become established quickly, but old things go away slowly. I don't think it's going to be as quick of a shift as maybe it might seem at first. Now in terms of where the opportunities are moving forward and where we see this developing, the thing that's exciting for me is as we have, and this is something early on, talking with Brendon, he got super excited about, is as we provide new abstractions, as we provide a new toolbox, how do people start creating systems and applications that take advantage of that. I'll give you an example, distributed systems, pre-systems like Kubernetes were very difficult because not only did you have to do the thing that you wanted to do, you had to build all of this plumbing to actually get your things to talk to each other, the finds, the secure, all that stuff had to be created from scratch and those systems were rare and hard to manage and few and far between. Now with things like Kubernetes, there's a whole set of problems that you actually don't have to solve. The floor that you need, the floor is that much higher for building these systems so I think we're going to see a shift not just to cloud native, but I also think we're going to see a set of applications that are Kubernetes native. These are applications that assume that Kubernetes is the substrate that they're running on, and they take special advantage of it and I think we're going to see amazing thing happens when we really democratize the plumbing for building distributed systems. >> And that's the key, make that frictionless so if people want to go Kubernetes native, they're taking advantage, that's cool. I want to get to, to take that to the next level, as the world of IOT comes down, you can almost look at the world now as all IOT. There's no on prem and there's no cloud. If you believe this service mission unpluggable architectures, you could argue that a data center is a network point, it's an attached device to a myriad things, so you're going to need policy, the light bulb has a process in it, the wifi has wifis everywhere, so in a way, this is all going to be a grid if you will, it's going to be kind of a mesh. This is the right direction don't you think, the more services that come online, you just want to connect to them. That's the nirvana right? Are we smoking the peace pipe here too much? >> I think there's a bunch of trends that we're seeing happen there. I think with IOT, we see also a move towards edge computing, this idea of, we're going to see much more stuff happening in a more distributed manner. Whether that edge happens to be in your house or whether it's in a telecom cabinet or whether it's just mini data centers that are dropped in to parking lots here and there. That introduces a whole bunch of new problems in terms of how do you manage that stuff at scale. One of the things that I see is that we're seeing an interesting overlap between CDM providers and cloud providers, so you have cloud flare introducing their cloud workers, where you can start running actual code in their CDM nodes and that's the culmination of CDM providers over time fighting with each other to drive more and more customization. On the other hand, you have Amazon taking lambda, finding ways to actually use lambda and push that out to the edge, even into devices that are doing local machine learning. There's this overlap between these two different worlds. Then also, as we move stuff closer out to the clouds, the political situations that people deal with become that much more complex. As you start running compute in all these different countries, all of a sudden you can't necessarily go to one provider to actually deal with all of that. We're moving from this world where, when you're centered around data which is the traditional cloud, when you want to put it all in one big pile with compute around the edges, that's kind of like the traditional data center. Going with a few large providers makes a ton of sense. As we move towards a much more distributed world, it becomes a more distributed problem both in terms of how do you manage the compute, but how do you manage the relationships and how do you actually understand what's happening across all that and I think Kubernetes can be a part of that puzzle for sure, but it's not the end of the answer, there's still a lot of problems to be solved there. >> No but you get the first mile post. You can say hey, I can start orchestrating workloads and have endpoints that have services that talk to each other as the first step. >> Joe, one thing I wanted to ask you, what are the stumbling blocks? What do people need to look out for? Because most companies out there aren't Google. >> This morning at today's keynote and you can find it online, there's that cloud native road map that Dan was showing. That is an interesting thing that cuts both ways. On the one hand, it shows an enormous amount of innovation, it shows that we're seeing this explosion of interest in this world and it's really invigorating. That's from an entrepreneur's view and a technologist's view. If I'm a customer, that thing's kind of horrifying. I look at that and I say wow, I really have to understand all of this stuff to get ahead? I think the biggest stumbling block is really being able to make sense of all the noise out there. I think that noise is part and parcel of an active, innovative, chaotic ecosystem, but I think it's one of those things that makes it that much harder for enterprises and for more mainstream developers to adopt. Tim, we've been saying this for a while, for Kubernetes to be successful, we had to make it boring. That's Tim Hawkin, I think maybe was the first one to say that, but we not only had to make Kubernetes boring, we had to make that entire stack boring, we had to make cloud native boring. That's when it will have succeeded. I don't know what this conference will look like when cloud native is boring, but it'll probably be very different than. >> It'll certainly create some excitement, boring is reliable, boring is safe, boring is secure, boring is comfortable. Mark Zuckerberg once said move fast, break stuff, then he revised it to move fast and be 100% reliable. That's boring. >> Did he actually say that? >> I don't know, he shifted his narrative because that was the maverick early days when he started running at five nines it's like a whole nother ball game. >> Actually that matters. >> Joe, great to have you on theCube, thanks for sharing your awesome insight into the dynamics of the computing industry that's going cloud native, going KubeCon, and certainly Kubernetes that you helped put together with the team, it's certainly taken on a life of its own, last minute, take a minute to talk about Heptio, what you guys are working on, get the plug in. >> Yeah Heptio, we have services, support and training that we're offering to make customers successful with Kubernetes today and that's been invigorating, really getting out there and talking with folks, seeing the problems that they're hitting now versus where we want it to go. We're doing a bunch of work around open source projects, we have Heptio Arc which is a backup disaster recovery project open source, we have Sona Boy, which is a diagnostic project for running the conformance tests and it underpins the Kubernetes conformance effort. We have K Sonic which helps you configure applications and then we also have Contour, which is an ingress controller building on top of Envoy and other CNCF project and then into 2018, we're going to be offering more products and projects and services that really start targeting the special needs of larger and larger enterprises and that's where our focus is going to shift over time. >> You guys are certainly helping customers who are under pressure to add more services, including what Amazon's doing, more pronouncements, there are little announcements, some big some little, but still, the cadence of new things happening is fast at all times right now. >> I can't keep up either, nobody else can. >> We try. Two and a half hour keynote, it's ridiculous. Joe Beda here inside theCube, cofounder CTO of Heptio a hot startup, making Kubernetes interesting and exciting and reliable and boring. Not boring, we should say that. >> Oh boring's good. >> Infrastructure's good, it's theCube, bringing you all the live action from Austin, Texas, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, KubeCon and Cloud Native Con, we'll be right back after this short break.