>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering ServiceNow Knowledge18. Brought to you by ServiceNow. >> Welcome back, everyone, to theCUBE's live coverage of ServiceNow Knowledge18. We're coming at you from The Venetian in Las Vegas. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. I have with me Paul Webb; he is the ServiceNow Practice Lead for EY. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, Paul. >> Thanks for having me, Rebecca. >> So, before the cameras were rolling, we were talking about how, what EY's focus is, and it's not traditional IT, you're really focused on bringing ServiceNow into the business; can you talk a little bit about this? >> Yeah, that's right. >> Paul: So, traditionally ServiceNow's been seen inside the IT organization, transforming the way in which the service desk is run. But what we're finding is more and more of customers see the power of the platform and how it can be taken out into HR, customer service, and automate a lot of business process that have traditionally been manual or used by a bunch of disparate systems. So, that's been our focus and it's been very compelling to our customers and it's been very good to us. >> So, give me some examples of how, of what you're doing. What are some innovative solutions? >> Yeah, so we've got a couple of really cool ones. One is fleet car management, so we've taken a device that we've put in vehicles that then transmits back to a ServiceNow hub to give us the vehicle telemetry. So then when the vehicle comes back in from being used, someone like Hertz or Avis, anyone like that, they can then use a device to see whether the car needs a repair or a service, new tires, and then automatically trigger a work order to get that taken care of. So that's a really different use case than a traditional IT. >> Right, right, and so... How are clients, are they ready for this? Are they, you feel at this conference that there's been this pent-up exhaustion with the workplace and the way it's been structured because our consumer lives are so easy and intuitive. >> We're seeing this need for disruption sort of kicking in this year. It's like last year it was a lot of ideas, a lot of thought around the art of the possible, but now we're starting to see companies ready to embrace it, and so that change, that transformation is happening right now in 2018. >> And how are you helping them, because it's not easy, this stuff is hard, change management. >> Yeah, it's kind of great that we're such a diverse and broad company, so the fact that I can bring our customer service teams, our supply chain teams, our human resources teams, all of that consulting breadth that we have, and deep subject matter experience. We can bring that to the ServiceNow platform and then take it to a client to really transform the way in which they think about a problem. >> And what would you say are some of the best practices that have emerged, because as we've said, this is a really disruptive time for so many companies. You just talked about car industry. What would you say are the insights you've gleaned in working with clients? >> It's time to value, I think more than anything else it's getting something in the hands of the customer or the user very, very quickly. So, our typical cycle is 12 weeks from an ideation, an idea of what they want to achieve, to something they can actually touch and feel and experience. >> Rebecca: 12 weeks! >> 12 weeks, yeah. And we typically work in these 12-week delivery cycles, so that you don't end up with fatigue and design fatigue. You just get your hands on something you can touch, you can feel, you can experience, and then you can mature it from there. >> So, walk us through the process. I mean, at 12 weeks, that is stupendous. >> Yeah, first of all it's containing the scope, it's not trying to do too much all at once. We then really help the client to whiteboard what problem they want to solve, we may do something as simple as a proof of concept, or we call them hackathons, it's common here. Do that to get the ideas into an environment that they can touch, then we come up with a series of requirements that need to be in the first release, and then once we've done that, it's send it to our developers, get them to turn the crank, turn it into something that we can get in the hands, even if it's not in production, if it's not production-ready it's got to be close enough where they can say, "Yeah, we need x changed, we need y changed, we need something different." Or this is good to go, let's now evolve. >> When you're in this design process, which is messy and complicated, how are you sparking good ideas and creativity and innovation on your team? >> We find the client brings that themselves. We've got smart people, they do good things, they're young, they're innovative. But we find when we start to produce some ideas to the conversation, it rapidly sparks the same back from the client. So this collaborative approach works really well to bring everybody up to a whole new level of thinking. >> So, the tag line, the new branding for ServiceNow is making the world of work work better for people, and that is where you're focusing EY's business, too. So, what would you say should be next? What are the next employee pain points that you want to focus on with the ServiceNow platform? >> It's interesting that, it's a little less exciting, but it's this concept of the system of protection. One of the guys that works with me, Lawrence, came up with the concept of using ServiceNow as this system of protection, where we can look at things like compliance and security and risk, and use ServiceNow to help manage that, facilitate that risk. The second side is obviously the more creative, improve productivity, improve efficiency, drive more of this disruptive digital agenda into the equation. And so those two ends of the spectrum, protect the business and then innovate the business, are two prime agenda items right now. >> Finally, why would a client choose EY? What do you bring to the table? >> I think it's the breadth and depth. You know, we are a very large global company. We have a lot of really bright minds, I think 70 percent of our business is now millennials, so we've got a lot of brilliant minds that are really trying to bring new ideas, new disruptive thinking, and yet we still have that maturity and that experience across that spectrum. So, bring all that to bear on a problem for a client enables us to do some really unique things. >> Rebecca: Great, well thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, Paul. >> Thanks very much for having me, Rebecca. >> We will have more from ServiceNow Knowledge18 and theCUBE's live coverage just after this. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Hello everyone and welcome back to AWS re:Invent, here in wonderful Las Vegas, Nevada. We're theCUBE. I am Savannah Peterson. Joined with my co-host, Dave Vellante. Day four, you look great. Your voice has come back somehow. >> Yeah, a little bit. I don't know how. I took last night off. You guys, I know, were out partying all night, but - >> I don't know what you're talking about. (Dave laughing) >> Well, you were celebrating John's birthday. John Furrier's birthday today. >> Yes, happy birthday John! >> He's on his way to England. >> Yeah. >> To attend his nephew's wedding. Awesome family. And so good luck, John. I hope you feel better, he's got a little cold. >> I know, good luck to the newlyweds. I love this. I know we're both really excited for our next guest, so I'm going to bring out, Lena Smart from MongoDB. Thank you so much for being here. >> Thank you for having me. >> How's the show going for you? >> Good. It's been a long week. And I just, not much voice left, so. >> We'll be gentle on you. >> I'll give you what's left of it. >> All right, we'll take that. >> Okay. >> You had a fireside chat, at the show? >> Lena: I did. >> Can you tell us a little bit about that? >> So we were talking about the Rise, The developer is a platform. In this massive theater. I thought it would be like an intimate, you know, fireside chat. I keep believing them when they say to me come and do these talks, it'll be intimate. And you turn up and there's a stage and a theater and it's like, oh my god. But it was really interesting. It was well attended. Got some really good questions at the end as well. Lots of follow up, which was interesting. And it was really just about, you know, how we've brought together this developer platform that's got our integrated services. It's just what developers want, it gives them time to innovate and disrupt, rather than worry about the minutia of management. >> Savannah: Do the cool stuff. >> Exactly. >> Yeah, so you know Lena, it's funny that you're saying that oh wow, the lights came on and it was this big thing. When when we were at re:Inforced, Lena was on stage and it was so funny, Lena, you were self deprecating like making jokes about the audience. >> Savannah: (indistinct) >> It was hilarious. And so, but it was really endearing to the audience and so we were like - >> Lena: It was terrifying. >> You got huge props for that, I'll tell you. >> Absolutely terrifying. Because they told me I wouldn't see anyone. Because we did the rehearsal the day before, and they were like, it's just going to be like - >> Sometimes it just looks like blackness out there. >> Yeah, yeah. It wasn't, they lied. I could see eyeballs. It was terrifying. >> Would you rather know that going in though? Or is it better to be, is ignorance bliss in that moment? >> Ignorance is bliss. >> Yeah, yeah yeah. >> Good call Savannah, right? Yeah, just go. >> The older I get, the more I'm just, I'm on the ignorance is bliss train. I just, I don't need to know anything that's going to hurt my soul. >> Exactly. >> One of the things that you mentioned, and this has actually been a really frequent theme here on the show this week, is you said that this has been a transformative year for developers. >> Lena: Yeah. >> What did you mean by that? >> So I think developers are starting to come to the fore, if you like, the fore. And I'm not in any way being deprecating about developers 'cause I love them. >> Savannah: I think everyone here does. >> I was married to one, I live with one now. It's like, they follow me everywhere. They don't. But, I think they, this is my opinion obviously but I think that we're seeing more and more the value that developers bring to the table. They're not just code geeks anymore. They're not just code monkeys, you know, churning out lines and lines of code. Some of the most interesting discussions I've had this week have been with developers. And that's why I'm so pleased that our developer data platform is going to give these folks back time, so that they can go and innovate. And do super interesting things and do the next big thing. It was interesting, I was talking to Mary, our comms person earlier and she had said that Dave I guess, my boss, was on your show - >> Dave: Yeah, he was over here last night. >> Yeah. And he was saying that two thirds of the companies that had been mentioned so far, within the whole gamut of this conference use MongoDB. And so take that, extrapolate that, of all the developers >> Wow. >> who are there. I know, isn't that awesome? >> That's awesome. Congrats on that, that's like - >> Did I hear that right now? >> I know, I just had that moment. >> I know she just told me, I'm like, really? That's - >> That's so cool. >> 'Cause the first thing I thought of was then, oh my god, how many developers are we reaching then? 'Cause they're the ones. I mean, it's kind of interesting. So my job has kind of grown from, over the years, being the security geek in the back room that nobody talks to, to avoiding me in the lift, to I've got a seat at the table now. We meet with the board. And I think that I can see that that's where the developer mindset is moving towards. It's like, give us the right tools and we'll change your world. >> And let the human capital go back to doing the fun stuff and not just the maintenance stuff. >> And, but then you say that, you can't have everything automated. I get that automation is also the buzzword of the week. And I get that, trust me. Someone has to write the code to do the automation. >> Savannah: Right. >> So, so yeah, definitely give these people back time, so that they can work on ML, AI, choose your buzzword. You know, by giving people things like queriable encryption for example, you're going to free up a whole bunch of head space. They don't have to worry about their data being, you know harvested from memory or harvested while at rest or in motion. And it's like, okay, I don't have to worry about that now, let me go do something fun. >> How about the role of the developer as it relates to SecOps, right? They're being asked to do a lot. You and I talked about this at re:Inforce. You seem to have a pretty good handle on it. Like a lot of companies I think are struggling with it. I mean, the other thing you said said to me is you don't have a lack of talent at Mongo, right? 'Cause you're Mongo. But a lot of companies do. But a lot of the developers, you know we were just talking about this earlier with Capgemini, the developer metrics or the application development team's metrics might not be aligned with the CSO's metrics. How, what are you seeing there? What, how do you deal with it within Mongo? What do you advise your customers? >> So in terms of internal, I work very closely with our development group. So I work with Tara Hernandez, who's our new VP of developer productivity. And she and her team are very much interested in making developers more productive. That's her job. And so we get together because sometimes security can definitely be seen as a blocker. You know, funnily enough, I actually had a Slack that I had to respond to three seconds before I come on here. And it was like, help, we need some help getting this application through procurement, because blah, blah, blah. And it's weird the kind of change, the shift in mindset. Whereas before they might have gone to procurement or HR or someone to ask for this. Now they're coming to the CSO. 'Cause they know if I say yes, it'll go through. >> Talk about social engineering. >> Exactly. >> You were talking about - >> But turn it around though. If I say no, you know, I don't like to say no. I prefer to be the CSO that says yes, but. And so that's what we've done. We've definitely got that culture of ask, we'll tell you the risks, and then you can go away and be innovative and do what you need to do. And we basically do the same with our customers. Here's what you can do. Our application is secure out of the box. Here's how we can help you make it even more, you know, streamlined or bespoke to what you need. >> So mobile was a big inflection point, you know, I dunno, it seems like forever ago. >> 2007. >> 2007. Yeah, iPhone came out in 2007. >> You remember your first iPhone? >> Dave: Yeah. >> Yeah? Same. >> Yeah. It was pretty awesome, actually. >> Yeah, I do too. >> Yeah, I was on the train to Boston going up to see some friends at MIT on the consortium that I worked with. And I had, it was the wee one, 'member? But you thought it was massive. >> Oh, it felt - >> It felt big. And I remember I was sitting on the train to Boston it was like the Estella and there was these people, these two women sitting beside me. And they were all like glam, like you and unlike me. >> Dave: That's awesome. >> And they, you could see them like nudging each other. And I'm being like, I'm just sitting like this. >> You're chilling. >> Like please look at my phone, come on just look at it. Ask me about it. And eventually I'm like - >> You're baiting them. >> nonchalantly laid it on the table. And you know, I'm like, and they're like, is that an iPhone? And I'm like, yeah, you want to see it? >> I thought you'd never ask. >> I know. And I really played with it. And I showed them all the cool stuff, and they're like, oh we're going to buy iPhones. And so I should have probably worked for Apple, but I didn't. >> I was going to say, where was your referral kickback on that? Especially - >> It was a little like Tesla, right? When you first, we first saw Tesla, it was Ray Wong, you know, Ray? From Pasadena? >> It really was a moment and going from the Blackberry keyboard to that - >> He's like want to see my car? And I'm like oh yeah sure, what's the big deal? >> Yeah, then you see it and you're like, ooh. >> Yeah, that really was such a pivotal moment. >> Anyway, so we lost a track, 2007. >> Yeah, what were we talking about? 2007 mobile. >> Mobile. >> Key inflection point, is where you got us here. Thank you. >> I gotchu Dave, I gotchu. >> Bring us back here. My mind needs help right now. Day four. Okay, so - >> We're all getting here on day four, we're - >> I'm socially engineering you to end this, so I can go to bed and die quietly. That's what me and Mary are, we're counting down the minutes. >> Holy. >> That's so sick. >> You're breaking my heart right now. I love it. I'm with you, sis, I'm with you. >> So I dunno where I was, really where I was going with this, but, okay, there's - >> 2007. Three things happened. >> Another inflection point. Okay yeah, tell us what happened. But no, tell us that, but then - >> AWS, clones, 2006. >> Well 2006, 2007. Right, okay. >> 2007, the iPhone, the world blew up. So you've already got this platform ready to take all this data. >> Dave: Right. >> You've got this little slab of gorgeousness called the iPhone, ready to give you all that data. And then MongoDB pops up, it's like, woo-hoo. But what we could offer was, I mean back then was awesome, but it was, we knew that we would have to iterate and grow and grow and grow. So that was kind of the three things that came together in 2007. >> Yeah, and then Cloud came in big time, and now you've got this platform. So what's the next inflection point do you think? >> Oh... >> Good question, Dave. >> Don't even ask me that. >> I mean, is it Edge? Is it IOT? Is there another disruptor out there? >> I think it's going to be artificial intelligence. >> Dave: Is it AI? >> I mean I don't know enough about it to talk about it, to any level, so don't ask me any questions about it. >> This is like one of those ignorance is bliss moments. It feels right. >> Yeah. >> Well, does it scare you, from a security perspective? Or? >> Great question, Dave. >> Yeah, it scares me more from a humanity standpoint. Like - >> More than social scared you? 'Cause social was so benign when it started. >> Oh it was - >> You're like, oh - I remember, >> It was like a yearbook. I was on the Estella and we were - >> Shout out to Amtrak there. >> I was with, we were starting basically a wikibond, it was an open source. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Kind of, you know, technology community. And we saw these and we were like enamored of Facebook. And there were these two young kids on the train, and we were at 'em, we were picking the brain. Do you like Facebook? "I love Facebook." They're like "oh, Facebook's unbelievable." Now, kids today, "I hate Facebook," right? So, but social at the beginning it was kind of, like I say, benign and now everybody's like - >> Savannah: We didn't know what we were getting into. >> Right. >> I know. >> Exactly. >> Can you imagine if you could have seen into the future 20 years ago? Well first of all, we'd have all bought Facebook and Apple stock. >> Savannah: Right. >> And Tesla stock. But apart from, but yeah apart from that. >> Okay, so what about Quantum? Does that scare you at all? >> I think the only thing that scares me about Quantum is we have all this security in place today. And I'm not an expert in Quantum, but we have all this security in place that's securing what we have today. And my worry is, in 10 years, is it still going to be secure? 'Cause we're still going to be using that data in some way, shape, or form. And my question is to the quantum geniuses out there, what do we do in 10 years like to retrofit the stuff? >> Dave: Like a Y2K moment? >> Kind of. Although I think Y2K is coming in 2038, isn't it? When the Linux date flips. I'll be off the grid by then, I'll be living in Scotland. >> Somebody else's problem. >> Somebody else's problem. I'll be with the sheep in Glasgow, in Scotland. >> Y2K was a boondoggle for tech, right? >> What a farce. I mean, that whole - >> I worked in the power industry in Y2K. That was a nightmare. >> Dave: Oh I bet. >> Savannah: Oh my God. >> Yeah, 'cause we just assumed that the world was going to stop and there been no power, and we had nuclear power plants. And it's like holy moly. Yeah. >> More than moly. >> I was going to say, you did a good job holding that other word in. >> I think I was going to, in case my mom hears this. >> I grew up near Diablo Canyon in, in California. So you were, I mean we were legitimately worried that that exactly was going to happen. And what about the waste? And yeah it was chaos. We've covered a lot. >> Well, what does worry you? Like, it is culture? Is it - >> Why are you trying to freak her out? >> No, no, because it's a CSO, trying to get inside the CSO's head. >> You don't think I have enough to worry about? You want to keep piling on? >> Well if it's not Quantum, you know? Maybe it's spiders or like - >> Oh but I like spiders, well spiders are okay. I don't like bridges, that's my biggest fear. Bridges. >> Seriously? >> And I had to drive over the Tappan Zee bridge, which is one of the longest, for 17 years, every day, twice. The last time I drove over it, I was crying my heart out, and happy as anything. >> Stay out of Oakland. >> I've never driven over it since. Stay out of where? >> Stay out of Oakland. >> I'm staying out of anywhere that's got lots of water. 'Cause it'll have bridges. >> Savannah: Well it's good we're here in the desert. >> Exactly. So what scares me? Bridges, there you go. >> Yeah, right. What? >> Well wait a minute. So if I'm bridging technology, is that the scary stuff? >> Oh God, that was not - >> Was it really bad? >> It was really bad. >> Wow. Wow, the puns. >> There's a lot of seems in those bridges. >> It is lit on theCUBE A floor, we are all struggling. I'm curious because I've seen, your team is all over the place here on the show, of course. Your booth has been packed the whole time. >> Lena: Yes. >> The fingerprint. Talk to me about your shirt. >> So, this was designed by my team in house. It is the most wanted swag in the company, because only my security people wear it. So, we make it like, yeah, you could maybe have one, if this turns out well. >> I feel like we're on the right track. >> Dave: If it turns out well. >> Yeah, I just love it. It's so, it's just brilliant. I mean, it's the leaf, it's a fingerprint. It's just brilliant. >> That's why I wanted to call it out. You know, you see a lot of shirts, a lot of swag shirts. Some are really unfortunately sad, or not funny, >> They are. >> or they're just trying too hard. Now there's like, with this one, I thought oh I bet that's clever. >> Lena: It is very cool. Yes, I love it. >> I saw a good one yesterday. >> Yeah? >> We fix shit, 'member? >> Oh yeah, yeah. >> That was pretty good. >> I like when they're >> That's a pretty good one. >> just straightforward, like that, yeah yeah. >> But the only thing with this is when you're say in front of a green screen, you look as though you've got no tummy. >> A portal through your body. >> And so, when we did our first - >> That's a really good point, actually. >> Yeah, it's like the black hole to nothingless. And I'm like wow, that's my soul. >> I was just going to say, I don't want to see my soul like that. I don't want to know. >> But we had to do like, it was just when the pandemic first started, so we had to do our big presentation live announcement from home. And so they shipped us all this camera equipment for home and thank God my partner knows how that works, so he set it all up. And then he had me test with a green screen, and he's like, you have no tummy. I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? He's like, come and see. It's like this, I dunno what it was. So I had to actually go upstairs and felt tip with a magic marker and make it black. >> Wow. >> So that was why I did for two hours on a Friday, yeah. >> Couldn't think of another alternative, huh? >> Well no, 'cause I'm myopic when it comes to marketing and I knew I had to keep the tshirt on, and I just did that. >> Yeah. >> In hindsight, yes I could have worn an "I Fix Shit" tshirt, but I don't think my husband would've been very happy. I secure shit? >> There you go, yeah. >> There you go. >> Over to you, Savannah. >> I was going to say, I got acquainted, I don't know if I can say this, but I'm going to say it 'cause we're here right now. I got acquainted with theCUBE, wearing a shirt that said "Unfuck Kubernetes," 'cause it was a marketing campaign that I was running for one of my clients at Kim Con last year. >> That's so good. >> Yeah, so - >> Oh my God. I'll give you one of these if you get me one of those. >> I can, we can do a swapskee. We can absolutely. >> We need a few edits on this film, on the file. >> Lena: Okay, this is nothing - >> We're fallin' off the wheel. Okay, on that note, I'm going to bring us to our challenge that we discussed, before we got started on this really diverse discussion that we have had in the last 15 minutes. We've covered everything from felt tip markers to nuclear power plants. >> To the darkness of my soul. >> To the darkness of all of our souls. >> All of our souls, yes. >> Which is perhaps a little too accurate, especially at this stage in the conference. You've obviously seen a lot Lena, and you've been rockin' it, I know John was in your suite up here, at at at the Venetian. What's your 30 second hot take? Most important story, coming out of the show or for you all at Mongo this year? >> Genuinely, it was when I learned that two-thirds of the customers that had been mentioned, here, are MongoDB customers. And that just exploded in my head. 'Cause now I'm thinking of all the numbers and the metrics and how we can use that. And I just think it's amazing, so. >> Yeah, congratulations on that. That's awesome. >> Yeah, I thought it was amazing. >> And it makes sense actually, 'cause Mongo so easy to use. We were talking about Tengen. >> We knew you when, I feel that's our like, we - >> Yeah, but it's true. And so, Mongo was just really easy to use. And people are like, ah, it doesn't scale. It's like, turns out it actually does scale. >> Lena: Turns out, it scales pretty well. >> Well Lena, without question, this is my favorite conversation of the show so far. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you very much for having me. >> Dave: Great to see you. >> It's always a pleasure. >> Dave: Thanks Lena. >> Thank you. >> And thank you all, tuning in live, for tolerating wherever we take these conversations. >> Dave: Whatever that was. >> I bet you weren't ready for this one, folks. We're at AWS re:Invent in Las Vegas, Nevada. With Dave Vellante, I'm Savannah Peterson. You're washing theCUBE, the leader for high tech coverage.

>>Hey everyone. Welcome to the AWS partner showcase season one, episode three women in tech. I'm your host. Lisa Martin. I've got two female rock stars joining me. Next Vera Reynolds is here engineering manager, telemetry at honeycomb, and one of our Cub alumni, Danielle GShock ISV PSA director at AWS joins us as well. Ladies. It's great to have you talking about a very important topic today. >>Thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. >>Of course, Vera, let's go ahead and start with you. Tell me about your background and tech. You're coming up on your 10th anniversary. Happy anniversary. >>Thank you. That's right. I can't believe it's been 10 years, but yeah, I started in tech in 2012. I was an engineer for most of that time. And just recently, as of March switched to engineering management here at honeycomb and, you know, throughout my career, I was very much interested in all the things, right. And it was a big FOMO as far as trying a few different companies and products, and I've done things from web development to mobile, to platforms. It would be apt to call me a generalist. And in the more recent years, I was sort of gravitating more towards developer tool space. And for me, that came in the form of cloud Foundry circle CI, and now honeycomb. I actually had my eye on honeycomb for a while before joining, I came across a blog post by charity majors. Who's one of our founders and she was actually talking about management and how to pursue that and whether or not it's right for your career. >>And so I was like, who is this person? I really like her found the company. They were pretty small at the time. So I was sort of keeping my eye on them. And then when the time came around for me to look again, I did a little bit more digging, found a lot of talks about the product. And on the one hand, they really spoke to me as the solution. They talked about developers owning their coding in production and answering questions about what is happening, what are your users seeing? And I felt that pain, I got what they were trying to do. And also on the other hand, every talk I saw at the time was from an amazing woman, which I haven't seen before. So I came across charity majors again, Christine Young, who's our other founder. And then Liz Frank Jones, who's our, our principal developer advocate. And that really sealed the deal for me as far as wanting to work here. >>Yeah. Honeycomb is interesting. This is a female founded company. You two leaders, you mentioned that you liked the technology, but you were also attracted because you saw females and the leadership position. Talk to me a little bit about what that's like working for a female led organization at honeycomb. >>Yeah. You know, historically we have tried not to over index on that because there was this maybe fear or rareness of it taking away from our legitimacy as an engineering organization, from our success as a company. But I'm seeing that rhetoric shift recently because we believe that with great responsibility with great power comes great responsibility. And we're trying to be more intentional as far as using that attribute of our company. So I would say that for me, it was a choice between a few offers, right. And that was a selling point, for sure, because again, I've never experienced it and I've really seen how much they walk that walk. Even me being here and me moving into management, I think were both ways in which they really put a lot of trust and support in me. And so I it's been a great ride. >>Excellent. Sounds like it. Before we bring Danielle in to talk about the partnership. I do wanna have you here, talk to the audience a little bit about honeycomb, what technology it's delivering and what are its differentiators. >>Yeah, absolutely. So honeycomb is an observability tool that enables engineers to answer questions about the code that runs in production. And we work with a number of various customers. Some of them are Vanguards, slack. Hello, fresh. Just to name a couple. If you're not familiar with observability tooling, it's akin to traditional application performance monitoring, but we believe that observability is succeeding APM because APM tools were built at the time of monoliths and they just weren't designed to help us answer questions about complex distributed systems that we work with today, where things can go wrong anywhere in that chain. And you can't predict what you're gonna need to ask ahead of time. So some of the ways that we are different is our ability to store and query really rich data, which we believe is the key to understanding those complex systems. What I mean by rich data is something that has a lot of attributes. >>So for example, when an error happens, knowing who it happened to, which user ID, which I don't know region, they were in, what, what they were doing at the time and what was happening at the rest of your system. And our ingest engine is really fast. You could do it in as little as three seconds and we call data like this. I said, kind of rich data, contextual data. We refer it as having high ity and high dimensionality, which are big words. But at the end of the day, what that means is we can store and we can query this data and we can do it really fast. And to give you an example of how that looks for our customers, let's say you have a developer team who are using honeycomb to understand and observe their system. And they get a report that a user is experiencing a slowdown or something's wrong. >>They can go into honeycomb and figure out that this only happens to users who are using a particular language pack with their app. And they operated their app last week, that it only happens when they are trying to upload a file. And so it's this level of granularity and being able to zoom in and out under data that allows you to understand what's happening, especially when you have an incident going on, right. Or your really important high profile customer is telling you that something's wrong. And we can do that. Even if everything else in your other tools looks fine, right? All of your dashboards are okay. You're not actually getting paged on it, but your customers are telling you that something's wrong. And we believe that's where we shine in helping you there. >>Excellent. It sounds like that's where you really shine that realtime visibility is so critical these days. Danielle, Danielle, wanna bring you into the conversation. Talk to us a little bit about the honeycomb partnership from the AWS lens. >>Yeah. So excuse me, observability is obviously a very important segment in the cloud space, very important to AWS, because a lot of all of our customers, as they build their systems distributed, they need to be able to see where, where things are happening in the complex systems that they're building. And so honeycomb is a, is an advanced technology partner. They've been working with us for quite some time and they have a, their solution is listed on the marketplace. Definitely something that we see a lot of demand with our customers, and they have many integrations, which, you know, we've seen is key to success. Being able to work seamlessly with the rest of the services inside of the AWS platform. And I know that they've done some, some great things with people who are trying to develop games on top of AWS things in that area as well. And so very important partner in the observa observability market that we have >>You back to you, let's kind of unpack the partnership, the significance that honeycomb ha is getting from being partners with an organization as potent and pivotal as AWS. >>Yeah, absolutely. I know that this predates me to some extent, but I know for a long time, AWS and honeycomb has really pushed the envelope together. And I think it's a beneficial relationship for both ends. There is kind of two ways of looking at it. On the one side, there is our own infrastructure. So honeycomb runs on AWS and actually one of our critical workloads that supports that fast query engine that I mentioned uses Lambda. And it does so in a pretty Orthodox way. So we've had a long standing conversation with the AWS team as far as drawing outside those lines and kind of figuring out how to use the technology in a way that works for us and hopefully will work for other customers of theirs as well. That also allows us to ask for early access for certain features when they become available. >>And then that way we can be sort of the Guinea pigs and try things out in a way that migrates our system and optimizes our own performance, but also allows again, other customers of AWS to follow in that path. And then the other side of that partnership is really supporting our customers who are both honeycomb users and AWS users, because it's, as you imagine, quite a big overlap, and there are certain ways in which we can allow our customers to more easily get their data from AWS to honeycomb. So for example, last year we built a tool based on the new Lambda extension capability that allowed our users who run their applications in Lambdas to get that tele, telemetry data out of their applications and into honeycomb and it land was win-win >>Excellent. So I'm hearing a lot of synergies from a technology perspective, you're sticking with you, and then Danielle will bring you in. Let's talk about how honeycomb supports D and I across its organization. And how is that synergistic with AWS's approach? Yeah, >>Yeah, absolutely. So I, I sort of alluded to that hesitancy to over index on the women led aspect of ourselves. But again, a lot of things are shifting, we're growing a lot. And so we are recognizing that we need to be more intentional with our DEI initiatives, and we also notice that we can do better and we should do better. And to that, and we're doing a few things differently that are pretty recent initiatives. We are partnering with organizations that help us target specific communities that are underrepresented in tech. Some examples would be after tech hu Latinas in tech among a number of others. And another initiative is DEI head start. That's something that is an internal practice that we started that includes reaching out to underrepresented applicants before any new job for honeycomb becomes live. So before we posted to LinkedIn, before it's even live on our job speech, and the idea there is to kind of balance our pipeline of applicants, which the hope is we'll lead to more diverse hires in the long term. >>That's a great focus there. Danielle, I know we've talked about this before, but for the audience, in terms of the context of the honeycomb partnership, the focus at AWS for D E and I is really significant, unpack that a little bit for us. >>Well, let me just bring it back to just how we think about it with the companies that we work with, but also in, in terms of, you know, what we want to be able to do, excuse me, it's very important for us to, you know, build products that reflect the customers that we have. And I think, you know, working with a company like honeycomb that is looking to differentiate in a space by, by bringing in, you know, the experiences of many different types of people I genuinely believe. And I'm sure Vera also believes that by having those diverse perspectives, that we're able to then build better products for our customers. And, you know, it's one of, one of our leadership principles is, is rooted in this. I write a lot, it asks for us to seek out diverse perspectives and you can't really do that if everybody kind of looks the same and thinks the same and has the same background. So I think that is where our de and I, you know, I thought process is rooted and, you know, companies like honeycomb that give customers choice and differentiate and help them to do what they need to do in their unique environments is super important. So >>The, the importance of thought diversity cannot be underscored enough. It's something that is, can be pivotal to organizations. And it's very nice to hear that that's so fundamental to both companies, Barry, I wanna go back to you for a second. You, I think you mentioned this, the DEI headstart program, that's an internal program at honeycomb. Can you shed a little bit of light on that? >>Yeah, that's right. And I actually am in the process of hiring a first engineer for my team. So I'm learning a lot of these things firsthand and how it works is we try to make sure to pre-load our pipeline of applicants for any new job opening we have with diverse candidates to the best of our abilities. And that can involve partnering with the organizations that I mentioned or reaching out to our internal network and make sure that we give those applicants a head start, so to speak. >>Excellent. I like that. Danielle, before we close, I wanna get a little bit of, of your background. We've got various background in tech, she's celebrating her 10th anniversary. Give me a, a short kind of description of the journey that you've navigated through being a female in technology. >>Yeah, thanks so much. I really appreciate being able to share this. So I started as a software engineer back actually in the late nineties during the, the first.com bubble and have, have spent quite a long time actually as an individual contributor, probably working in software engineering teams up through 2014 at a minimum until I joined AWS as a customer facing solutions architect. I do think spending a lot of time, hands on, definitely helped me with some of the imposter syndrome issues that folks suffer from not to say I don't at all, but it, it certainly helped with that. And I've been leading teens at AWS since 2015. So it's really been a great ride. And like I said, I'm very happy to see all of our engineering teams change as far as their composition. And I'm, I'm grateful to be part of it. >>It's pretty great to be able to witness that composition change for the better last question for each of you. And we're almost out of time and Danielle, I'm gonna stick with you. What's your advice or your recommendations for women who either are thinking about getting into tech or those who may be in tech, maybe they're in individual contributor positions and they're not sure if they should apply for that senior leadership position. What do you advise them to do? >>I mean, definitely for the individual contributors, tech tech is a great career direction and you will always be able to find women like you, you have to maybe just work a little bit harder to join, have community in that. But then as a leader, representation is very important and we can bring more women into tech by having more leaders. So that's my, you just have to take the lead, >>Take the lead, love it there. Same question for you. What's your advice and recommendations for those maybe future female leaders in tech? >>Yeah, absolutely. Danielle mentioned imposter syndrome and I think we all struggle with it from time to time, no matter how many years it's been. And I think for me, for me, the advice would be if you're starting out, don't be afraid to ask questions and don't be afraid to kind of show a, a little bit of ignorance because we've all been there. And I think it's on all of us to remember what it's like to not know how things work. And on the flip side of that, if you are a more senior IC or in a leadership role, also being able to model just saying, I don't know how this works and going and figuring out answers together because that was a really powerful shift for me early in my career is just to feel like I can say that I don't know something. >>I totally agree. I've been in that same situation where just ask the question because you I'm guaranteed. There's a million other people in the room that probably has the, have the same question. And because of imposter syndrome, don't wanna admit, I don't understand that. Can we back up, but I agree with you. I think that is one of the best things. Raise your hand, ask a question, ladies. Thank you so much for joining me talking about honeycomb and AWS, what you're doing together from a technology perspective and the focus efforts that each company has on D and I, we appreciate your insights. >>Thank you so much for having us great talking to you. >>My pleasure, likewise for my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the AWS partner showcase women in check.

>>Hi everybody. This is Dave Volante. Welcome to this cube conversation where we're going to go back in time a little bit and explore the early days of Kubernetes. Talk about how it formed the improbable events, perhaps that led to it. And maybe how customers are taking advantage of containers and container orchestration today, and maybe where the industry is going. Matt Provo is here. He's the founder and CEO of storm forge and Chandler Huntington hoes. Hoisington is the general manager of EKS edge and hybrid AWS guys. Thanks for coming on. Good to see you. Thanks for having me. Thanks. So, Jenny, you were the vice president of engineering at miso sphere. Is that, is that correct? >>Well, uh, vice-president engineering basis, fear and then I ran product and engineering for DTQ masons. >>Yeah. Okay. Okay. So you were there in the early days of, of container orchestration and Matt, you, you were working at a S a S a Docker swarm shop, right? Yep. Okay. So I mean, a lot of people were, you know, using your platform was pretty novel at the time. Uh, it was, it was more sophisticated than what was happening with, with Kubernetes. Take us back. What was it like then? Did you guys, I mean, everybody was coming out. I remember there was, I think there was one Docker con and everybody was coming, the Kubernetes was announced, and then you guys were there, doc Docker swarm was, was announced and there were probably three or four other startups doing kind of container orchestration. And what, what were those days like? Yeah. >>Yeah. I wasn't actually atmosphere for those days, but I know them well, I know the story as well. Um, uh, I came right as we started to pivot towards Kubernetes there, but, um, it's a really interesting story. I mean, obviously they did a documentary on it and, uh, you know, people can watch that. It's pretty good. But, um, I think that, from my perspective, it was, it was really interesting how this happened. You had basically, uh, con you had this advent of containers coming out, right? So, so there's new novel technology and Solomon, and these folks started saying, Hey, you know, wait a second, wait if I put a UX around these couple of Linux features that got launched a couple of years ago, what does that look like? Oh, this is pretty cool. Um, so you have containers starting to crop up. And at the same time you had folks like ThoughtWorks and other kind of thought leaders in the space, uh, starting to talk about microservices and saying, Hey, monoliths are bad and you should break up these monoliths into smaller pieces. >>And any Greenfield application should be broken up into individuals, scalable units that a team can can own by themselves, and they can scale independent of each other. And you can write tests against them independently of other components. And you should break up these big, big mandalas. And now we are kind of going back to model this, but that's for another day. Um, so, so you had microservices coming out and then you also had containers coming out, same time. So there was like, oh, we need to put these microservices in something perfect. We'll put them in containers. And so at that point, you don't really, before that moment, you didn't really need container orchestration. You could just run a workload in a container and be done with it, right? You didn't need, you don't need Kubernetes to run Docker. Um, but all of a sudden you had tons and tons of containers and you had to manage these in some way. >>And so that's where container orchestration came, came from. And, and Ben Heineman, the founder of Mesa was actually helping schedule spark at the time at Berkeley. Um, and that was one of the first workloads with spark for Macy's. And then his friends at Twitter said, Hey, come over, can you help us do this with containers at Twitter? He said, okay. So when it helped them do it with containers at Twitter, and that's kinda how that branch of the container wars was started. And, um, you know, it was really, really great technology and it actually is still in production in a lot of shops today. Um, uh, more and more people are moving towards Kubernetes and Mesa sphere saw that trend. And at the end of the day, Mesa sphere was less concerned about, even though they named the company Mesa sphere, they were less concerned about helping customers with Mesa specifically. They really want to help customers with these distributed problems. And so it didn't make sense to, to just do Mesa. So they would took on Kubernetes as well. And I hope >>I don't do that. I remember, uh, my, my co-founder John furrier introduced me to Jerry Chen way back when Jerry is his first, uh, uh, VC investment with Greylock was Docker. And we were talking in these very, obviously very excited about it. And, and his Chandler was just saying, it said Solomon and the team simplified, you know, containers, you know, simple and brilliant. All right. So you guys saw the opportunity where you were Docker swarm shop. Why? Because you needed, you know, more sophisticated capabilities. Yeah. But then you, you switched why the switch, what was happening? What was the mindset back then? We ran >>And into some scale challenges in kind of operationalize or, or productizing our kind of our core machine learning. And, you know, we, we, we saw kind of the, the challenges, luckily a bit ahead of our time. And, um, we happen to have someone on the team that was also kind of moonlighting, uh, as one of the, the original core contributors to Kubernetes. And so as this sort of shift was taking place, um, we, we S we saw the flexibility, uh, of what was becoming Kubernetes. Um, and, uh, I'll never forget. I left on a Friday and came back on a Monday and we had lifted and shifted, uh, to Kubernetes. Uh, the challenge was, um, you know, you, at that time, you, you didn't have what you have today through EKS. And, uh, those kinds of services were, um, just getting that first cluster up and running was, was super, super difficult, even in a small environment. >>And so I remember we, you know, we, we finally got it up and running and it was like, nobody touch it, don't do anything. Uh, but obviously that doesn't, that doesn't scale either. And so that's really, you know, being kind of a data science focused shop at storm forge from the very beginning. And that's where our core IP is. Uh, our, our team looked at that problem. And then we looked at, okay, there are a bunch of parameters and ways that I can tune this application. And, uh, why are the configurations set the way that they are? And, you know, uh, is there room to explore? And that's really where, unfortunately, >>Because Mesa said much greater enterprise capabilities as the Docker swarm, at least they were heading in that direction, but you still saw that Kubernetes was, was attractive because even though it didn't have all the security features and enterprise features, because it was just so simple. I remember Jen Goldberg who was at Google at the time saying, no, we were focused on keeping it simple and we're going from mass adoption, but does that kind of what you said? >>Yeah. And we made a bet, honestly. Uh, we saw that the, uh, you know, the growing community was really starting to, you know, we had a little bit of an inside view because we had, we had someone that was very much in the, in the original part, but you also saw the, the tool chain itself start to, uh, start to come into place right. A little bit. And it's still hardening now, but, um, yeah, we, as any, uh, as any startup does, we, we made a pivot and we made a bet and, uh, this, this one paid off >>Well, it's interesting because, you know, we said at the time, I mean, you had, obviously Amazon invented the modern cloud. You know, Microsoft has the advantage of has got this huge software stays, Hey, just now run it into the cloud. Okay, great. So they had their entry point. Google didn't have an entry point. This is kind of a hail Mary against Amazon. And, and I, I wrote a piece, you know, the improbable, Verizon, who Kubernetes to become the O S you know, the cloud, but, but I asked, did it make sense for Google to do that? And it never made any money off of it, but I would argue they, they were kind of, they'd be irrelevant if they didn't have, they hadn't done that yet, but it didn't really hurt. It certainly didn't hurt Amazon EKS. And you do containers and your customers you've embraced it. Right. I mean, I, I don't know what it was like early days. I remember I've have talked to Amazon people about this. It's like, okay, we saw it and then talk to customers, what are they doing? Right. That's kind of what the mindset is, right? Yeah. >>That's, I, I, you know, I've, I've been at Amazon a couple of years now, and you hear the stories of all we're customer obsessed. We listened to our customers like, okay, okay. We have our company values, too. You get told them. And when you're, uh, when you get first hired in the first day, and you never really think about them again, but Amazon, that really is preached every day. It really is. Um, uh, and that we really do listen to our customers. So when customers start asking for communities, we said, okay, when we built it for them. So, I mean, it's, it's really that simple. Um, and, and we also, it's not as simple as just building them a Kubernetes service. Amazon has a big commitment now to start, you know, getting involved more in the community and working with folks like storm forage and, and really listening to customers and what they want. And they want us working with folks like storm florigen and that, and that's why we're doing things like this. So, well, >>It's interesting, because of course, everybody looks at the ecosystem, says, oh, Amazon's going to kill the ecosystem. And then we saw an article the other day in, um, I think it was CRN, did an article, great job by Amazon PR, but talk about snowflake and Amazon's relationship. And I've said many times snowflake probably drives more than any other ISV out there. And so, yeah, maybe the Redshift guys might not love snowflake, but Amazon in general, you know, they're doing great three things. And I remember Andy Jassy said to me, one time, look, we love the ecosystem. We need the ecosystem. They have to innovate too. If they don't, you know, keep pace, you know, they're going to be in trouble. So that's actually a healthy kind of a dynamic, I mean, as an ecosystem partner, how do you, >>Well, I'll go back to one thing without the work that Google did to open source Kubernetes, a storm forge wouldn't exist, but without the effort that AWS and, and EKS in particular, um, provides and opens up for, for developers to, to innovate and to continue, continue kind of operationalizing the shift to Kubernetes, um, you know, we wouldn't have nearly the opportunity that we do to actually listen to them as well, listen to the users and be able to say, w w w what do you want, right. Our entire reason for existence comes from asking users, like, how painful is this process? Uh, like how much confidence do you have in the, you know, out of the box, defaults that ship with your, you know, with your database or whatever it is. And, uh, and, and how much do you love, uh, manually tuning your application? >>And, and, uh, obviously nobody's said, I love that. And so I think as that ecosystem comes together and continues expanding, um, it's just, it opens up a huge opportunity, uh, not only for existing, you know, EKS and, uh, AWS users to continue innovating, but for companies like storm forge, to be able to provide that opportunity for them as well. And, and that's pretty powerful. So I think without a lot of the moves they've made, um, you know, th the door wouldn't be nearly as open for companies like, who are, you know, growing quickly, but are smaller to be able to, you know, to exist. >>Well, and I was saying earlier that, that you've, you're in, I wrote about this, you're going to get better capabilities. You're clearly seeing that cluster management we've talked about better, better automation, security, the whole shift left movement. Um, so obviously there's a lot of momentum right now for Kubernetes. When you think about bare metal servers and storage, and then you had VM virtualization, VMware really, and then containers, and then Kubernetes as another abstraction, I would expect we're not at the end of the road here. Uh, what's next? Is there another abstraction layer that you would think is coming? Yeah, >>I mean, w for awhile, it looked like, and I remember even with our like board members and some of our investors said, well, you know, well, what about serverless? And, you know, what's the next Kubernetes and nothing, we, as much as I love Kubernetes, um, which I do, and we do, um, nothing about what we particularly do. We are purpose built for Kubernetes, but from a core kind of machine learning and problem solving standpoint, um, we could apply this elsewhere, uh, if we went that direction and so time will tell what will be next, then there will be something, uh, you know, that will end up, you know, expanding beyond Kubernetes at some point. Um, but, you know, I think, um, without knowing what that is, you know, our job is to, to, to serve our, you know, to serve our customers and serve our users in the way that they are asking for that. >>Well, serverless obviously is exploding when you look again, and we tucked the ETR survey data, when you look at, at the services within Amazon and other cloud providers, you know, the functions off, off the charts. Uh, so that's kind of an interesting and notable now, of course, you've got Chandler, you've got edge in your title. You've got hybrid in, in your title. So, you know, this notion of the cloud expanding, it's not just a set of remote services, just only in the public cloud. Now it's, it's coming to on premises. You actually got Andy, Jesse, my head space. He said, one time we just look at it. The data centers is another edge location. Right. Okay. That's a way to look at it and then you've got edge. Um, so that cloud is expanding, isn't it? The definition of cloud is, is, is evolving. >>Yeah, that's right. I mean, customers one-on-one run workloads in lots of places. Um, and that's why we have things like, you know, local zones and wavelengths and outposts and EKS anywhere, um, EKS, distro, and obviously probably lots more things to come. And there's, I always think of like, Amazon's Kubernetes strategy on a manageability scale. We're on one far end of the spectrum, you have EKS distro, which is just a collection of the core Kubernetes packages. And you could, you could take those and stand them up yourself in a broom closet, in a, in a retail shop. And then on the other far in the spectrum, you have EKS far gate where you can just give us your container and we'll handle everything for you. Um, and then we kind of tried to solve everything in between for your data center and for the cloud. And so you can, you can really ask Amazon, I want you to manage my control plane. I want you to manage this much of my worker nodes, et cetera. And oh, I actually want help on prem. And so we're just trying to listen to customers and solve their problems where they're asking us to solve them. Cut, >>Go ahead. No, I would just add that in a more vertically focused, uh, kind of orientation for us. Like we, we believe that op you know, optimization capabilities should transcend the location itself. And, and, and so whether that's part public part, private cloud, you know, that's what I love part of what I love about EKS anywhere. Uh, it, you know, you shouldn't, you should still be able to achieve optimal results that connect to your business objectives, uh, wherever those workloads, uh, are, are living >>Well, don't wince. So John and I coined this term called Supercloud and people laugh about it, but it's different. It's, it's, you know, people talk about multi-cloud, but that was just really kind of vendor diversity. Right? I got to running here, I'm running their money anywhere. Uh, but, but individually, and so Supercloud is this concept of this abstraction layer that floats wherever you are, whether it's on prem, across clouds, and you're taking advantage of those native primitives, um, and then hiding that underlying complexity. And that's what, w re-invent the ecosystem was so excited and they didn't call it super cloud. We, we, we called it that, but they're clearly thinking differently about the value that they can add on top of Goldman Sachs. Right. That to me is an example of a Supercloud they're taking their on-prem data and their, their, their software tooling connecting it to AWS. They're running it on AWS, but they're, they're abstracting that complexity. And I think you're going to see a lot, a lot more of that. >>Yeah. So Kubernetes itself, in many cases is being abstracted away. Yeah. There's a disability of a disappearing act for Kubernetes. And I don't mean that in a, you know, in an, a, from an adoption standpoint, but, uh, you know, Kubernetes itself is increasingly being abstracted away, which I think is, is actually super interesting. Yeah. >>Um, communities doesn't really do anything for a company. Like we run Kubernetes, like, how does that help your bottom line? That at the end of the day, like companies don't care that they're running Kubernetes, they're trying to solve a problem, which is the, I need to be able to deploy my applications. I need to be able to scale them easily. I need to be able to update them easily. And those are the things they're trying to solve. So if you can give them some other way to do that, I'm sure you know, that that's what they want. It's not like, uh, you know, uh, a big bank is making more money because they're running Kubernetes. That's not, that's not the current, >>It gets subsumed. It's just become invisible. Right. Exactly. You guys back to the office yet. What's, uh, what's the situation, >>You know, I, I work for my house and I, you know, we go into the office a couple of times a week, so it's, it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's a crazy time. It's a crazy time to be managing and hiring. And, um, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's definitely a challenge, but there's a lot of benefits of working home. I got two young kids, so I get to see them, uh, grow up a little bit more working, working out of my house. So it's >>Nice also. >>So we're in, even as a smaller startup, we're in 26, 27 states, uh, Canada, Germany, we've got a little bit of presence in Japan, so we're very much distributed. Um, we, uh, have not gone back and I'm not sure we will >>Permanently remote potentially. >>Yeah. I mean, w we made a, uh, pretty like for us, the timing of our series B funding, which was where we started hiring a lot, uh, was just before COVID started really picking up. So we, you know, thankfully made a, a pretty good strategic decision to say, we're going to go where the talent is. And yeah, it was harder to find for sure, especially in w we're competing, it's incredibly competitive. Uh, but yeah, we've, it was a good decision for us. Um, we are very about, you know, getting the teams together in person, you know, as often as possible and in the safest way possible, obviously. Um, but you know, it's been a, it's been a pretty interesting, uh, journey for us and something that I'm, I'm not sure I would, I would change to be honest with you. Yeah. >>Well, Frank Slootman, snowflakes HQ to Montana, and then can folks like Michael Dell saying, Hey, same thing as you, wherever they want to work, bring yourself and wherever you are as cool. And do you think that the hybrid mode for your team is kind of the, the, the operating mode for the, for the foreseeable future is a couple of, >>No, I think, I think there's a lot of benefits in both working from the office. I don't think you can deny like the face-to-face interactions. It feels good just doing this interview face to face. Right. And I can see your mouth move. So it's like, there's a lot of benefits to that, um, over a chime call or a zoom call or whatever, you know, that, that also has advantages, right. I mean, you can be more focused at home. And I think some version of hybrid is probably in the industry's future. I don't know what Amazon's exact plans are. That's above my pay grade, but, um, I know that like in general, the industry is definitely moving to some kind of hybrid model. And like Matt said, getting people I'm a big fan at Mesa sphere, we ran a very diverse, like remote workforce. We had a big office in Germany, but we'd get everybody together a couple of times a year for engineering week or, or something like this. And you'd get a hundred people, you know, just dedicated to spending time together at a hotel and, you know, Vegas or Hamburg or wherever. And it's a really good time. And I think that's a good model. >>Yeah. And I think just more ETR data, the current thinking now is that, uh, the hybrid is the number one sort of model, uh, 36% that the CIO is believe 36% of the workforce are going to be hybrid permanently is kind of their, their call a couple of days in a couple of days out. Um, and the, the percentage that is remote is significantly higher. It probably, you know, high twenties, whereas historically it's probably 15%. Yeah. So permanent changes. And that, that changes the infrastructure. You need to support it, the security models and everything, you know, how you communicate. So >>When COVID, you know, really started hitting and in 2020, um, the big banks for example, had to, I mean, you would want to talk about innovation and ability to, to shift quickly. Two of the bigger banks that have in, uh, in fact, adopted Kubernetes, uh, were able to shift pretty quickly, you know, systems and things that were, you know, historically, you know, it was in the office all the time. And some of that's obviously shifted back to a certain degree, but that ability, it was pretty remarkable actually to see that, uh, take place for some of the larger banks and others that are operating in super regulated environments. I mean, we saw that in government agencies and stuff as well. >>Well, without the cloud, no, this never would've happened. Yeah. >>And I think it's funny. I remember some of the more old school manager thing people are, aren't gonna work less when they're working from home, they're gonna be distracted. I think you're seeing the opposite where people are too much, they get burned out because you're just running your computer all day. And so I think that we're learning, I think everyone, the whole industry is learning. Like, what does it mean to work from home really? And, uh, it's, it's a fascinating thing is as a case study, we're all a part of right now. >>I was talking to my wife last night about this, and she's very thoughtful. And she w when she was in the workforce, she was at a PR firm and a guy came in a guest speaker and it might even be in the CEO of the company asking, you know, what, on average, what time who stays at the office until, you know, who leaves by five o'clock, you know, a few hands up, or who stays until like eight o'clock, you know, and enhancement. And then, so he, and he asked those people, like, why, why can't you get your work done in a, in an eight hour Workday? I go home. Why don't you go in? And I sit there. Well, that's interesting, you know, cause he's always looking at me like, why can't you do, you know, get it done? And I'm saying the world has changed. Yeah. It really has where people are just on all the time. I'm not sure it's sustainable, quite frankly. I mean, I think that we have to, you know, as organizations think about, and I see companies doing it, you guys probably do as well, you know, take a four day, you know, a week weekend, um, just for your head. Um, but it's, there's no playbook. >>Yeah. Like I said, we're a part of a case study. It's also hard because people are distributed now. So you have your meetings on the east coast, you can wake up at seven four, and then you have meetings on the west coast. You stay until seven o'clock therefore, so your day just stretches out. So you've got to manage this. And I think we're, I think we'll figure it out. I mean, we're good at figuring this stuff. >>There's a rise in asynchronous communication. So with things like slack and other tools, as, as helpful as they are in many cases, it's a, it, isn't always on mentality. And like, people look for that little green dot and you know, if you're on the you're online. So my kids, uh, you know, we have a term now for me, cause my office at home is upstairs and I'll come down. And if it's, if it's during the day, they'll say, oh dad, you're going for a walk and talk, you know, which is like, it was my way of getting away from the desk, getting away from zoom. And like, you know, even in Boston, uh, you know, getting outside, trying to at least, you know, get a little exercise or walk and get, you know, get my head away from the computer screen. Um, but even then it's often like, oh, I'll get a slack notification on my phone or someone will call me even if it's not a scheduled walk and talk. Um, uh, and so it is an interesting, >>A lot of ways to get in touch or productivity is presumably going to go through the roof. But now, all right, guys, I'll let you go. Thanks so much for coming to the cube. Really appreciate it. And thank you for watching this cube conversation. This is Dave Alante and we'll see you next time.

(upbeat techno music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of Postgres Vision 2021. Brought to you by EBD. >> Hello everyone, this is David Vellante, for the CUBE. And we're here covering Postgres Vision 2021. The virtual version, thCUBE virtual, if you will. And welcome to our power-panel. Now in this session, we'll dig into database modernization. We want to better understand how and why customers are tapping open source to drive innovation. But at the same time, they've got to deliver the resiliency and enterprise capabilities that they're used to that are now necessary to support today's digital business requirements. And with me are three experts on these matters. Abdul Sheik, is Global CTO and President of Cintra. Young Il Cho, aka Charlie, is High Availability Cluster Sales Manager, at Daone CNS. And Alan Villalobos, is the Director of Development Partnerships, at IBM. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, Dave, nice to be here. >> Thank you, Dave. >> All right, let's talk trends and frame the problem. Abdul, I want to start with you? Cintra you're all about this topic. Accelerating innovation using EDB Postgres helping customers move to modern platforms. And doing so, you got to do it cost-effectively but what's driving these moves? What are the problems that you're seeing at the organizations that you serve? >> Oh, so let me quickly introduce, Abdul Sheik, CTO. I'll quickly introduce Cintra. So we are a multicloud and database architecture MSP. And we've been around for 25 plus years. Headquartered in New York and the UK. But as a global organization, we're serving our SMB customers as well as large enterprise customers. And the trends we're seeing certainly in this day and age is transformation and modernization. And what that means is, customers looking to get out of the legacy platforms, get out of the legacy data centers and really move towards a modern strategy with a lower cost base, while still retaining resiliency and freedom. Ultimately, in terms of where they're going. The key words that really I see driving this, number one is choice. They've been historically locked into vendors. With limited choice with a high cost base. So choice, freedom to choose in terms of what database technologies they apply to which workloads and certainly EDB and the work that has been done to closely marry what enterprise RD platforms offer with EDBs in a work that they've done in terms of filling those gaps and addressing where the resiliency monitoring performance and security requirements are, are certainly are required from an enterprise customer perspective. Choice is driving the move that we see and choice towards a lower cost platform that can be deployed anywhere. Both on-prem modernization customers are looking to retain on premise platforms or moving into any multi clouds whether it's an infrastructure cloud play or a platform cloud play. And certainly with EDBs offering in terms of, you know the latest cloud native offerings also very interesting. And lastly, aside from just cost and the freedom to choose where they deploy those platforms the SLA, the service level model where is the resiliency requirement where the which system is going to bronze, silver, gold? Which ones are the tier one revenue platform revenue generating platforms which are the lower, lower utility platforms. So a combination of choice, a combination of freedom to deploy anywhere and while still maintaining the resiliency and the service levels that the customers need to deliver to their businesses >> Abdul that was a beautiful setup. And, and we've got so much to talk about here because customers want to move from point A to point B but getting there and they, they need help. It's sometimes not trivial. So Charlie Daone is a consultancy. You've got a strong technical capabilities. What are you seeing in this space? You know, what are the major trends? Why are organizations considering that move? And what are some of the considerations there? >> Well, like in other country in South Korea or so our a lot of customers, banking's a manufacturing distributor. They are 90, over 90%. They are all are using Oracle DB and a rack system. But as the previous presenters pointed out, a lot of customers that are sick of the Oracle and they have to undergo the huge cost of a maintenance costs. They want to move away from this cost stress. And secondly, they can think about they're providing service to customer on their cloud base which is a private or the public. So we cannot imagine running on database, Oracle database running on the cloud the system that's not matches on this cloud. And first and second, and finally the customer what they want is the cost and they want to move away from the Oracle locking. They cannot be just a slave at Oracle for a long time and the premium for the new cloud the service for the customer. >> Great. Thank you for that. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. Did you have something else to add Charlie go ahead and please. >> No that's all. >> Okay, great. Yeah, Allen, welcome to theCUBE. You know, it's very interesting to us. IBM, you, you, of course, you're a big player in database. You have a lot of expertise here. And you partner with EDB, you're offering Postgres to customers, you know, what are you seeing? Charlie was talking about Oracle and RAC. I mean, the, the, the thing there is obviously, we talked about the maintenance costs but there's also a lot of high availability capabilities. That's something that IBM really understands well. Do you see this as largely a cloud migration trend? Is it more modernization? Interested in what's IBM's perspective on this? >> I think modernization is the right word. The points that the previous panelists brought up or are on point, right? You know, lower TCO or lower costs in general but that of agility and then availability for developers and data scientists as well. And then of course, you know, hybrid cloud, right? You know, you want to be able to deploy on prem or in the cloud, or both in a mixture of all of that. And I think, I think what ties it together is the customers are looking for insights, right? And, you know, especially in larger organizations there's a myriad of data sources that they're already working with. And, you know, we, you know we want to be able to play in that space. We want to give an offering that is based on Postgres and open source and be able to further what they're strong at at and kind of, you know on top of that, you know, a layer of, of of need that we see is, is seamless data governance across all of those different stores. >> All right, I'm going to go right to the heart of the hard problem here. So if, I mean, I want to, it's just that I want to get from point A to point B, I want to save money. I want to modernize, but if I'm the canary in the coal mine at the customer, I'm saying guys, migration scares me. How do I do that? What are the considerations? And what do I need to know that I don't know. So Abdul, maybe you could walk us through what are some of the concerns that customers have? How do you help mitigate those? Whether it's other application dependencies, you know freezing code, you know, getting, again from that point A to point B without risking my existing business processes how do you handle that? >> Yeah, certainly I think a customer needs to understand what the journey looks like to begin with. So we've actually developed our own methodology that we call Rocket Cloud, which is also part of our cloud modernization strategy that builds in and database modernization strategy built into it starts with an assessment in terms of current state discovery. Not all customers totally understand where they are today. So understanding where the database state is, you know where the risks lie what are the criticality of the various databases? What technologies are used, where we have RAC or we don't have RAC but we have data God, where we have encryption. And so on. That gives the customer a very good insight in terms of the current state, both commercially and technically that's a key point to understand how they're licensed today and what costs could be freed up to free the journey to effectively fund the journey. It's a big, big topic, but once we do that, we get an idea and we've actually developed a tool called rapid discovery. That's able to discover a largest stake without knowing the database list. We just put the scripts at the database servers themselves and it tells us exactly which databases are suited to be you know, effectively migrated to Postgres with in terms of the feature function usage in terms of how heavy they are, would store procedures in the database amount of business logic use of technologies like RAC data guard and how they convert over to to Postgres specifically. That ultimately gives us the ability to give that customer an assessment and that assessment in a short sharp few weeks and get the customer view of all of my hundreds of databases. Here are the subset of candidates for Postgres and specifically than we do the schemer advisor tool the actual assessment tool from EDB, which gives us a sense of how well the schema gets converted and how best to then also look at the stored procedure conversion as well. That gives the customer a full view of their architecture mapping their specific candidate databases and then a cost analysis in terms of what that migration looks like and how we migrate. We also run and maintain those platforms once we're on EDB. >> Thank you for that again, very clear but so you're not replacing, doing an organ transplant. You may, you're you're, you know, this is not I don't mean this as a pejorative, but you're kind of cherry picking those workloads that are appropriate for EDB and then moving those and then maybe, maybe through attrition or, you know over time, sun-setting those other, those other core pieces. >> Exactly. >> Charlie, let me ask you, so we talked about RAC, real application clusters, data guard. These are, you know kind of high profile Oracle capabilities. Can you, can you really replicate the kind of resiliency at lower costs with open source, with EDB Postgres and how do you do that? >> It's my turn? >> yes, please. >> Quite technically, again, I go on in depths and technically the RAC, RAC system is so-called is the best you know, best the tool to protect data and especially in the Unix system, but apart from the RAC by the some nice data replication solution we just stream the application and log shipping and something and then monitor Pam and, and EFM solution which is enterprise failover manager. So even though it be compared to Apple the Apple RAC versus with EDB solution, we can definitely say that RAC is more stable one, but after migration, whatever, we can overcome the, you know, drawbacks of the HA cluster system by providing the EDB tools. So whatever the customer feel that after a successful migration, utilizing the EDB high availability failable solution they can make of themselves at home. So that's, that's how we approach it with the customers. >> So, Alan, again, to me, IBM is fascinating here with your level of involvement because you're the, you guys are sort of historically the master of proprietary the mainframes, VCM, CICF, EB2, all that stuff. And then, you know IBM was the first I remember Steve Mills actually announced we're going to invest a billion dollars in open source with Linux. And that was a major industry milestone. And of course, the, the acquisition of red hat. So you've got now this open source mindset this open source culture. So we, you know, as it's all about recovery in, in database and enterprise database and all the acid properties in two phase commits, and we're talking about, you know the things that Charlie just talked about. So what's your perspective here? IBM knows a lot about this. How do you help customers get there? >> Yeah, well, I mean the main, the main thrust right now IBM has a offering called IBM cloud Pak for data which from here, which runs EDB, right? EDB, Postgres runs on top of cloud Pak for Data But the, you know I think going back to Abdul's points about, you know migrating whatever's needed and whatever can be migrated to Postgres and maybe migrating other things other places, we have data virtualization and autoSQL, right? So once you have migrated those parts of your database or those schemes that can be, having, you know a single point where you can query across them and by the way, being able to query across them you know, before, during and after migration as well. Right? So we're kind of have that seamless experience of layer of SQL. And now with autoSQL of spark SQL as well, as you're, as you're migrating and after is, I'd say, you know, key to this. >> What, what's the typical migration look like? I know I'm sorry, but it's a consultant question but thinking about the, you know, the average, in terms of timeframe, what are the teams look like? You know who are the stakeholders that I need to get involved? If I'm a customer to really make this a success? maybe Abdul, you could talk about that and Charlie and Alan can chime in. >> Well, I think, well, number one you knew the exact sponsors bought into it in terms of the business case, supporting the business case an architect has got a big picture understanding not only database technology but also infrastructure that they're coming from as well as the target cloud platforms and how you ensure that the infrastructure can deliver the performance. So the architect role is important, of course the core DBA that lives within the scope of the database understands the schema of the data model the business logic itself, and the application on it. That's key specifically around the application certification testing connectivity and the migration of the code. And specifically in terms of timeline just to touch on that quickly. I mean, in our experience so far and we're seeing the momentum really really take off the last 18 months, a small project with limited business logic within the database itself can we migrate it in a couple of months but typically with all the testing and rigor around that you typically say three months timeline a medium-sized complexity projects, a six month timeline and a large complex project could be anything from nine months and beyond, but it really comes down to how heavy the database is with business logic and the database and how much effort it will take to re-engineer effectively migrate that PLC code, business logic into EDB given the compatibility level between Oracle and EDB it's relatively certainly an easier path than any other target platform in terms of options. Yeah. Not perspective. That's certainly looks like the composition of a team and timeline >> Charlie or Alan, anything you guys would add. >> Yeah. So, so I think all those personas make sense. I think you might, on the consumer side of the consumer the consumer of the data side the data scientists often we see, you know during migrations and then obviously the dev ops, I think or any operations, right, have to be heavily involved. And then lastly, you know, you see more and more data steward role or data steward type persona, CDO office type type person coming in there make sure that, you know, whatever data governance that is already in place or wants to be in place after the migration is also part of the conversation. >> Why EDB? You know, there's a lot of databases out there you know, it's funny, I always say like, you know, 10, 15 years ago databases were kind of sort of a boring market, right? It was like, okay, you're going to work or whatever. And now it's exploded. You got open source databases, you got, you know not only sequel databases, you got graph databases you know, you get cloud databases, it's going crazy. Why EDB? You wonder if you guys could address that? >> Allan why don't you go first this time? I'll compliment your answers. >> Yeah. I mean, again, I think it goes back to, to the, the I guess varying needs and, and enterprises. Right. And I think that's, what's driven this explosion in databases, whether it's a document store like you're saying, or, or new types of RDBMS, the needs that we talked about at the beginning, like lower TCO, and the push to open source. But you know, the fact of the matter is that that yes, there is a myriad, an ecosystem of databases, pretty much any organization. And so, yeah, we want to tap into that. And why EDB? EDB has done a great job of taking Postgres and making it enterprise ready, you know, that's what they're, they're good at and that, you know fits very nicely with the IBM story obviously. And, and so, you know, and they've they've worked with us as well. They have an operator on, on the runs on red hat OpenShift. So that makes it portable as well but also part of the IBM cloud Pak for data story. And, and yeah, you know, we want to break down those silos. We realized that that need is there for all of these, you know, there's this ecosystem of databases. And so, you know, we're, we see our role as being that platform, whether it's red hat OpenShift, or IBM cloud Pak for data that, that unifies, and kind of gives you that single pane of glass across all of those sources. >> And Charlie, you're obviously all in, you've got EDB in your background. Why EDB for you? >> Before talking about EDB you asked about the previous question about how the migration was different from Oracle to EDB. We had a couple of success story in Korea telecom and some banking area, and it was easier. So EDB provide MTK tool as a people know but it was an appropriate, like a 90%. So we are the channel partner of the EDB for four years. So what we have done was to hire the Oracle expert. So we train Oracle export as as EDB expert at the same time so that they can approach customer and make it easy. So you have no worry about that. Just migrating EDB, Oracle to EDB. There is a no issue. Those telltales include all the tasks, you know Stratus test and trainee, and a POC that we there. So by investing that Oracle expert that we could overcome and persuade the customer to adopt EDB. So, why EDB? Simply I can say there, is there any database they can finally replaced Oracle in the world? Why is the, it's the interoperability between Oracle to EDB as the many experts pointed out there is no other DBE. They can, you know, 90, 90% in compatibility and intercooperability with EDB. That's why, of course, there's the somewhat, you know budget issues or maintenance issue cost the issue escape from Oracle lock-in. But I think the the number one reason was the interoperability and the compatibility with database itself, Oracle database. That was a reason, I guess >> Great Abdul we've talked about, we all know the, as is, you've got a high maintenance costs. You got a lot of tuning, and it's just a lot of complexity. What about the 2B maybe you could share with us sort of the outcome some of the outcomes you've seen what the business impact has been of some of these migrations? >> Sure. I mean, I'll give you a very simple example then just the idea of running Oracle on prem a lot of customer systems teams, for example will drive a virtualization VMware strategy. We know some of the challenges of running Oracle MBM where from a license perspective. So giving the business the ability where I want to go customer in the financial services market in New York, heavy virtualization strategy the ability for them to move away from Oracle on, you know expensive hardware on to Postgres EDB on virtualization just leverage existing skillsets, leveraging existing investment in terms of infrastructure, and also give them portability in AWS. The other clouds, you know, in terms of a migration. More from a business perspective as well, I would say about some of the Allan's points in terms of just freeing up the ability for data scientists and data consumers, to, you know, to consume some of that data from an Postgres perspective more accessibility spinning up environments quicker less latency in terms of the agility is another key word in terms of the tangible differences, the business, lower cost agility, and the freedom to deploy anywhere at the end of the day. Choices, I think the key word that we could come back to and knowing that we can do that to Charlie's point specifically around maintaining service levels. And as architects, we support some of the big, big names out there in terms of airlines, online, cosmetic retailers, financial services, trading applications, hedge funds, and they all want one thing as architect: for us to deliver that resiliency and stand behind them. And as the MSP we're accountable to ensure those systems are up and running and performing. So knowing that the EDB is provided the compatibility but also plugged the specific requirements around performance management, security availability that's fundamentally been key. >> [Dave I mean, having done a lot of TCO studies in this area, it's, it's it Oracle's different. You know, normally the biggest component of TCO is labor with Oracle. The biggest component of TCO is licensed and maintenance costs. So if you can virtualize and reduce those costs and of course, of course the Oracle will fight you and say we won't support it in a VMware environment. Of course, you know, they will, but, but you got to really, you got to battle. But, so here's my last question. So if I'm a customer in that state that you described you know, a lot of sort of Oracle sprawl a lot of databases out there, high maintenance costs, the whole lock-in thing. I got to choices. I, you know, a lot of choices out there. One is EDB. You guys have convinced me that you've got the expertise If I can partner with firms like yours, it's safer route. Okay, cool. My other choice is Oracle is going to, The Oracle sales reps is going to get me in a headlock and talk about exit data and how their Oracle cloud, and how it's, they've invested a lot there. And they have, and, I can pay by the drink all this sort of modern sort of discussion, you know, Oracle act like they invented it late to the game. And then here we are. So, so help me. What's the pitch as to, well, that's kind of compelling. It's maybe the safe bet they're there. They're working with my CIO, whatever. Why should I go with the open source route versus that route? It sounds kind of attractive to me, help me understand that each of you maybe take me through that. Abdul, why don't you start. >> Yeah. I'd say, you know, Oracle's being the defacto for so many years that people have just assumed and defaulted saying, high availability, RAC, DR. Data guard, you know, and I'll apply to any database need that I have. And at the end of the day customers have a three tier database requirement: the lowest, less critical, bronze level databases that really don't need RAC or a high availability, silver tier that are departmental solutions. That means some level of resiliency. And then you've got your gold revenue producing brand impact databases that are they're down. And certainly they won. You see no reason why the bronze and silver databases can be targeted towards EDB. Admittedly, we have some of our largest customers are running platforms, are running $5 million an hour e-commerce platform or airlines running large e-commerce platforms. And exit data certainly has a place. RAC has a place in those, in those scenarios. Were not saying that the EDB is a solution for everything in all scenarios, but apply the technology where it's appropriate where it's required and, you know, generally wherever Oracle has being the defacto and it's being applied across the estate, that's fundamentally what's changed. It doesn't have to be the only answer you have multiple choices now. EDB provides us with the ability to probably address, you know more than 50% of the databases' state, and comfortably cope with that and just apply that more expensive kind of gold tier one cost-based but also capability, you know from the highest requirements of performance and availability where it's appropriate. >> Yeah. Very pragmatic approach. Abdul, thank you for that. And Charlie. Charlie, what's your perspective? Give us your closing thoughts. >> Well, it has been, Oracle has been dominating in Asia in South Korea has market or over many years. So customers got tired of this, continuous spending money for the maintenance costs and there is no discount. There is no negotiation. So they want to move away from expensive stuff. And they were looking for a flexible platform with the easygoing and the high speed and performance open source database like a possibly as career. And now the EDB cannot replace a hundred percent of existing legacy worker, but 10%, 20% 50% as time goes on the trend that will continue. And it will be reaching some high point or replacing the existing Oracle system. And it can, it can also leading to good business chance to a channel partner and EDB steps and other related business in open source. >> Great. Thank you, Charlie and Allen, bring us home here. Give us your follow up >> I think my, co- panelists hit the nail on the head, right? It's a menu, right? That's as things become more diverse and as people make more choices and as everybody wants more agility, you have to provide, I mean, and so that, that's where that's coming in and I liked the way that Andul I kind of split it into gold silver and bronze. Yeah. And I think that that's where, we're going, right? I mean you should ask your developers right? Are your developers like pining to start up a new instance of Oracle every time you're starting a new project? Probably not reach for their Postgres right? And so, because of that, that's where this is coming from and that's not going to change. And, and yeah, that that ecosystem is going to continue to, to thrive. And there'll be lots of different flavors in the growing open source ecosystem. >> Yeah. I mean, open source absolutely is the underpinning you know, the, the bedrock of innovation, these days. Gentlemen, great power panel. Thanks so much for bringing your perspectives and best of luck in the future. >> Thank you, next time we'll try and match our backgrounds >> Next time. Well, we'll up our game. Okay. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for theCUBE. Stay tuned for more great coverage. Postgres vision, 21. Be right back. (upbeat techno music)

(upbeat techno music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of Postgres Vision 2021. Brought to you by enterprise Enterprise DB. >> Hello everyone, this is David Vellante, for the CUBE. And we're here covering Postgres Vision 2021. The virtual version, thCUBE virtual, if you will. And welcome to our power-panel. Now in this session, we'll dig into database modernization. We want to better understand how and why customers are tapping open source to drive innovation. But at the same time, they've got to deliver the resiliency and enterprise capabilities that they're used to that are now necessary to support today's digital business requirements. And with me are three experts on these matters. Abdul Sheik, is Global CTO and President of Cintra. Young Il Cho, aka Charlie, is High Availability Cluster Sales Manager, at Daone CNS. And Alan Villalobos, is the Director of Development Partnerships, at IBM. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, Dave, nice to be here. >> Thank you, Dave. >> All right, let's talk trends and frame the problem. Abdul, I want to start with you? Cintra you're all about this topic. Accelerating innovation using EDB Postgres helping customers move to modern platforms. And doing so, you got to do it cost-effectively but what's driving these moves? What are the problems that you're seeing at the organizations that you serve? >> Oh, so let me quickly introduce, Abdul Sheik, CTO. I'll quickly introduce Cintra. So we are a multicloud and database architecture MSP. And we've been around for 25 plus years. Headquartered in New York and the UK. But as a global organization, we're serving our SMB customers as well as large enterprise customers. And the trends we're seeing certainly in this day and age is transformation and modernization. And what that means is, customers looking to get out of the legacy platforms, get out of the legacy data centers and really move towards a modern strategy with a lower cost base, while still retaining resiliency and freedom. Ultimately, in terms of where they're going. The key words that really I see driving this, number one is choice. They've been historically locked into vendors. With limited choice with a high cost base. So choice, freedom to choose in terms of what database technologies they apply to which workloads and certainly EDB and the work that has been done to closely marry what enterprise RD platforms offer with EDBs in a work that they've done in terms of filling those gaps and addressing where the resiliency monitoring performance and security requirements are, are certainly are required from an enterprise customer perspective. Choice is driving the move that we see and choice towards a lower cost platform that can be deployed anywhere. Both on-prem modernization customers are looking to retain on premise platforms or moving into any multi clouds whether it's an infrastructure cloud play or a platform cloud play. And certainly with EDBs offering in terms of, you know the latest cloud native offerings also very interesting. And lastly, aside from just cost and the freedom to choose where they deploy those platforms the SLA, the service level model where is the resiliency requirement where the which system is going to bronze, silver, gold? Which ones are the tier one revenue platform revenue generating platforms which are the lower, lower utility platforms. So a combination of choice, a combination of freedom to deploy anywhere and while still maintaining the resiliency and the service levels that the customers need to deliver to their businesses >> Abdul that was a beautiful setup. And, and we've got so much to talk about here because customers want to move from point A to point B but getting there and they, they need help. It's sometimes not trivial. So Charlie Daone is a consultancy. You've got a strong technical capabilities. What are you seeing in this space? You know, what are the major trends? Why are organizations considering that move? And what are some of the considerations there? >> Well, like in other country in South Korea or so our a lot of customers, banking's a manufacturing distributor. They are 90, over 90%. They are all are using Oracle DB and a rack system. But as the previous presenters pointed out, a lot of customers that are sick of the Oracle and they have to undergo the huge cost of a maintenance costs. They want to move away from this cost stress. And secondly, they can think about they're providing service to customer on their cloud base which is a private or the public. So we cannot imagine running on database, Oracle database running on the cloud the system that's not matches on this cloud. And first and second, and finally the customer what they want is the cost and they want to move away from the Oracle locking. They cannot be just a slave at Oracle for a long time and the premium for the new cloud the service for the customer. >> Great. Thank you for that. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. Did you have something else to add Charlie go ahead and please. >> No that's all. >> Okay, great. Yeah, Allen, welcome to theCUBE. You know, it's very interesting to us. IBM, you, you, of course, you're a big player in database. You have a lot of expertise here. And you partner with EDB, you're offering Postgres to customers, you know, what are you seeing? Charlie was talking about Oracle and RAC. I mean, the, the, the thing there is obviously, we talked about the maintenance costs but there's also a lot of high availability capabilities. That's something that IBM really understands well. Do you see this as largely a cloud migration trend? Is it more modernization? Interested in what's IBM's perspective on this? >> I think modernization is the right word. The points that the previous panelists brought up or are on point, right? You know, lower TCO or lower costs in general but that of agility and then availability for developers and data scientists as well. And then of course, you know, hybrid cloud, right? You know, you want to be able to deploy on prem or in the cloud, or both in a mixture of all of that. And I think, I think what ties it together is the customers are looking for insights, right? And, you know, especially in larger organizations there's a myriad of data sources that they're already working with. And, you know, we, you know we want to be able to play in that space. We want to give an offering that is based on Postgres and open source and be able to further what they're strong at at and kind of, you know on top of that, you know, a layer of, of of need that we see is, is seamless data governance across all of those different stores. >> All right, I'm going to go right to the heart of the hard problem here. So if, I mean, I want to, it's just that I want to get from point A to point B, I want to save money. I want to modernize, but if I'm the canary in the coal mine at the customer, I'm saying guys, migration scares me. How do I do that? What are the considerations? And what do I need to know that I don't know. So Abdul, maybe you could walk us through what are some of the concerns that customers have? How do you help mitigate those? Whether it's other application dependencies, you know freezing code, you know, getting, again from that point A to point B without risking my existing business processes how do you handle that? >> Yeah, certainly I think a customer needs to understand what the journey looks like to begin with. So we've actually developed our own methodology that we call Rocket Cloud, which is also part of our cloud modernization strategy that builds in and database modernization strategy built into it starts with an assessment in terms of current state discovery. Not all customers totally understand where they are today. So understanding where the database state is, you know where the risks lie what are the criticality of the various databases? What technologies are used, where we have RAC or we don't have RAC but we have data God, where we have encryption. And so on. That gives the customer a very good insight in terms of the current state, both commercially and technically that's a key point to understand how they're licensed today and what costs could be freed up to free the journey to effectively fund the journey. It's a big, big topic, but once we do that, we get an idea and we've actually developed a tool called rapid discovery. That's able to discover a largest stake without knowing the database list. We just put the scripts at the database servers themselves and it tells us exactly which databases are suited to be you know, effectively migrated to Postgres with in terms of the feature function usage in terms of how heavy they are, would store procedures in the database amount of business logic use of technologies like RAC data guard and how they convert over to to Postgres specifically. That ultimately gives us the ability to give that customer an assessment and that assessment in a short sharp few weeks and get the customer view of all of my hundreds of databases. Here are the subset of candidates for Postgres and specifically than we do the schemer advisor tool the actual assessment tool from EDB, which gives us a sense of how well the schema gets converted and how best to then also look at the stored procedure conversion as well. That gives the customer a full view of their architecture mapping their specific candidate databases and then a cost analysis in terms of what that migration looks like and how we migrate. We also run and maintain those platforms once we're on EDB. >> Thank you for that again, very clear but so you're not replacing, doing an organ transplant. You may, you're you're, you know, this is not I don't mean this as a pejorative, but you're kind of cherry picking those workloads that are appropriate for EDB and then moving those and then maybe, maybe through attrition or, you know over time, sun-setting those other, those other core pieces. >> Exactly. >> Charlie, let me ask you, so we talked about RAC, real application clusters, data guard. These are, you know kind of high profile Oracle capabilities. Can you, can you really replicate the kind of resiliency at lower costs with open source, with EDB Postgres and how do you do that? >> It's my turn? >> yes, please. >> Quite technically, again, I go on in depths and technically the RAC, RAC system is so-called is the best you know, best the tool to protect data and especially in the Unix system, but apart from the RAC by the some nice data replication solution we just stream the application and log shipping and something and then monitor Pam and, and EFM solution which is enterprise failover manager. So even though it be compared to Apple the Apple RAC versus with EDB solution, we can definitely say that RAC is more stable one, but after migration, whatever, we can overcome the, you know, drawbacks of the HA cluster system by providing the EDB tools. So whatever the customer feel that after a successful migration, utilizing the EDB high availability failable solution they can make of themselves at home. So that's, that's how we approach it with the customers. >> So, Alan, again, to me, IBM is fascinating here with your level of involvement because you're the, you guys are sort of historically the master of proprietary the mainframes, VCM, CICF, EB2, all that stuff. And then, you know IBM was the first I remember Steve Mills actually announced we're going to invest a billion dollars in open source with Linux. And that was a major industry milestone. And of course, the, the acquisition of red hat. So you've got now this open source mindset this open source culture. So we, you know, as it's all about recovery in, in database and enterprise database and all the acid properties in two phase commits, and we're talking about, you know the things that Charlie just talked about. So what's your perspective here? IBM knows a lot about this. How do you help customers get there? >> Yeah, well, I mean the main, the main thrust right now IBM has a offering called IBM cloud Pak for data which from here, which runs EDB, right? EDB, Postgres runs on top of cloud Pak for Data But the, you know I think going back to Abdul's points about, you know migrating whatever's needed and whatever can be migrated to Postgres and maybe migrating other things other places, we have data virtualization and auto-sequel, right? So once you have migrated those parts of your database or those schemes that can be, having, you know a single point where you can query across them and by the way, being able to query across them you know, before, during and after migration as well. Right? So we're kind of have that seamless experience of layer of sequel. And now with auto sequel of sparks sequel as well, as you're, as you're migrating and after is, I'd say, you know, key to this. >> What, what's the typical migration look like? I know I'm sorry, but it's a consultant question but thinking about the, you know, the average, in terms of timeframe, what are the teams look like? You know who are the stakeholders that I need to get involved? If I'm a customer to really make this a success? maybe Abdul, you could talk about that and Charlie and Alan can chime in. >> Well, I think, well, number one you knew the exact sponsors bought into it in terms of the business case, supporting the business case an architect has got a big picture understanding not only database technology but also infrastructure that they're coming from as well as the target cloud platforms and how you ensure that the infrastructure can deliver the performance. So the architect role is important, of course the core DBA that lives within the scope of the database understands the schema of the data model the business logic itself, and the application on it. That's key specifically around the application certification testing connectivity and the migration of the code. And specifically in terms of timeline just to touch on that quickly. I mean, in our experience so far and we're seeing the momentum really really take off the last 18 months, a small project with limited business logic within the database itself can we migrate it in a couple of months but typically with all the testing and rigor around that you typically say three months timeline a medium-sized complexity projects, a six month timeline and a large complex project could be anything from nine months and beyond, but it really comes down to how heavy the database is with business logic and the database and how much effort it will take to re-engineer effectively migrate that PLC code, business logic into EDB given the compatibility level between Oracle and EDB it's relatively certainly an easier path than any other target platform in terms of options. Yeah. Not perspective. That's certainly looks like the composition of a team and timeline >> Charlie or Alan, anything you guys would add. >> Yeah. So, so I think all those personas make sense. I think you might, on the consumer side of the consumer the consumer of the data side the data scientists often we see, you know during migrations and then obviously the dev ops, I think or any operations, right, have to be heavily involved. And then lastly, you know, you see more and more data steward role or data steward type persona, CDO office type type person coming in there make sure that, you know, whatever data governance that is already in place or wants to be in place after the migration is also part of the conversation. >> Why EDB? You know, there's a lot of databases out there you know, it's funny, I always say like, you know, 10, 15 years ago databases were kind of sort of a boring market, right? It was like, okay, you're going to work or whatever. And now it's exploded. You got open source databases, you got, you know not only sequel databases, you got graph databases you know, you get cloud databases, it's going crazy. Why EDB? You wonder if you guys could address that? >> Allan why don't you go first this time? I'll compliment your answers. >> Yeah. I mean, again, I think it goes back to, to the, the I guess varying needs and, and enterprises. Right. And I think that's, what's driven this explosion in databases, whether it's a document store like you're saying, or, or new types of RDBMS, the needs that we talked about at the beginning, like lower TCO, and the push to open source. But you know, the fact of the matter is that that yes, there is a myriad, an ecosystem of databases, pretty much any organization. And so, yeah, we want to tap into that. And why EDB? EDB has done a great job of taking Postgres and making it enterprise ready, you know, that's what they're, they're good at and that, you know fits very nicely with the IBM story obviously. And, and so, you know, and they've they've worked with us as well. They have an operator on, on the runs on red hat OpenShift. So that makes it portable as well but also part of the IBM cloud Pak for data story. And, and yeah, you know, we want to break down those silos. We realized that that need is there for all of these, you know, there's this ecosystem of databases. And so, you know, we're, we see our role as being that platform, whether it's red hat OpenShift, or IBM cloud Pak for data that, that unifies, and kind of gives you that single pane of glass across all of those sources. >> And Charlie, you're obviously all in, you've got EDB in your background. Why EDB for you? >> Before talking about EDB you asked about the previous question about how the migration was different from Oracle to EDB. We had a couple of success story in Korea telecom and some banking area, and it was easier. So EDB provide MTK tool as a people know but it was an appropriate, like a 90%. So we are the channel partner of the EDB for four years. So what we have done was to hire the Oracle expert. So we train Oracle export as as EDB expert at the same time so that they can approach customer and make it easy. So you have no worry about that. Just migrating EDB, Oracle to EDB. There is a no issue. Those telltales include all the tasks, you know Stratus test and trainee, and a POC that we there. So by investing that Oracle expert that we could overcome and persuade the customer to adopt EDB. So, why EDB? Simply I can say there, is there any database they can finally replaced Oracle in the world? Why is the, it's the interoperability between Oracle to EDB as the many experts pointed out there is no other DBE. They can, you know, 90, 90% in compatibility and intercooperability with EDB. That's why, of course, there's the somewhat, you know budget issues or maintenance issue cost the issue escape from Oracle lock-in. But I think the the number one reason was the interoperability and the compatibility with database itself, Oracle database. That was a reason, I guess >> Great Abdul we've talked about, we all know the, as is, you've got a high maintenance costs. You got a lot of tuning, and it's just a lot of complexity. What about the 2B maybe you could share with us sort of the outcome some of the outcomes you've seen what the business impact has been of some of these migrations? >> Sure. I mean, I'll give you a very simple example then just the idea of running Oracle on prem a lot of customer systems teams, for example will drive a virtualization VMware strategy. We know some of the challenges of running Oracle MBM where from a license perspective. So giving the business the ability where I want to go customer in the financial services market in New York, heavy virtualization strategy the ability for them to move away from Oracle on, you know expensive hardware on to Postgres EDB on virtualization just leverage existing skillsets, leveraging existing investment in terms of infrastructure, and also give them portability in AWS. The other clouds, you know, in terms of a migration. More from a business perspective as well, I would say about some of the Allan's points in terms of just freeing up the ability for data scientists and data consumers, to, you know, to consume some of that data from an Postgres perspective more accessibility spinning up environments quicker less latency in terms of the agility is another key word in terms of the tangible differences, the business, lower cost agility, and the freedom to deploy anywhere at the end of the day. Choices, I think the key word that we could come back to and knowing that we can do that to Charlie's point specifically around maintaining service levels. And as architects, we support some of the big, big names out there in terms of airlines, online, cosmetic retailers, financial services, trading applications, hedge funds, and they all want one thing as architect: for us to deliver that resiliency and stand behind them. And as the MSP we're accountable to ensure those systems are up and running and performing. So knowing that the EDB is provided the compatibility but also plugged the specific requirements around performance management, security availability that's fundamentally been key. >> [Dave I mean, having done a lot of TCO studies in this area, it's, it's it Oracle's different. You know, normally the biggest component of TCO is labor with Oracle. The biggest component of TCO is licensed and maintenance costs. So if you can virtualize and reduce those costs and of course, of course the Oracle will fight you and say we won't support it in a VMware environment. Of course, you know, they will, but, but you got to really, you got to battle. But, so here's my last question. So if I'm a customer in that state that you described you know, a lot of sort of Oracle sprawl a lot of databases out there, high maintenance costs, the whole lock-in thing. I got to choices. I, you know, a lot of choices out there. One is EDB. You guys have convinced me that you've got the expertise If I can partner with firms like yours, it's safer route. Okay, cool. My other choice is Oracle is going to, The Oracle sales reps is going to get me in a headlock and talk about exit data and how their Oracle cloud, and how it's, they've invested a lot there. And they have, and, I can pay by the drink all this sort of modern sort of discussion, you know, Oracle act like they invented it late to the game. And then here we are. So, so help me. What's the pitch as to, well, that's kind of compelling. It's maybe the safe bet they're there. They're working with my CIO, whatever. Why should I go with the open source route versus that route? It sounds kind of attractive to me, help me understand that each of you maybe take me through that. Abdul, why don't you start. >> Yeah. I'd say, you know, Oracle's being the defacto for so many years that people have just assumed and defaulted saying, high availability, RAC, DR. Data guard, you know, and I'll apply to any database need that I have. And at the end of the day customers have a three tier database requirement: the lowest, less critical, bronze level databases that really don't need RAC or a high availability, silver tier that are departmental solutions. That means some level of resiliency. And then you've got your gold revenue producing brand impact databases that are they're down. And certainly they won. You see no reason why the bronze and silver databases can be targeted towards EDB. Admittedly, we have some of our largest customers are running platforms, are running $5 million an hour e-commerce platform or airlines running large e-commerce platforms. And exit data certainly has a place. RAC has a place in those, in those scenarios. Were not saying that the EDB is a solution for everything in all scenarios, but apply the technology where it's appropriate where it's required and, you know, generally wherever Oracle has being the defacto and it's being applied across the estate, that's fundamentally what's changed. It doesn't have to be the only answer you have multiple choices now. EDB provides us with the ability to probably address, you know more than 50% of the databases' state, and comfortably cope with that and just apply that more expensive kind of gold tier one cost-based but also capability, you know from the highest requirements of performance and availability where it's appropriate. >> Yeah. Very pragmatic approach. Abdul, thank you for that. And Charlie. Charlie, what's your perspective? Give us your closing thoughts. >> Well, it has been, Oracle has been dominating in Asia in South Korea has market or over many years. So customers got tired of this, continuous spending money for the maintenance costs and there is no discount. There is no negotiation. So they want to move away from expensive stuff. And they were looking for a flexible platform with the easygoing and the high speed and performance open source database like a possibly as career. And now the EDB cannot replace a hundred percent of existing legacy worker, but 10%, 20% 50% as time goes on the trend that will continue. And it will be reaching some high point or replacing the existing Oracle system. And it can, it can also leading to good business chance to a channel partner and EDB steps and other related business in open source. >> Great. Thank you, Charlie and Allen, bring us home here. Give us your follow up >> I think my, co- panelists hit the nail on the head, right? It's a menu, right? That's as things become more diverse and as people make more choices and as everybody wants more agility, you have to provide, I mean, and so that, that's where that's coming in and I liked the way that Andul I kind of split it into gold silver and bronze. Yeah. And I think that that's where, we're going, right? I mean you should ask your developers right? Are your developers like pining to start up a new instance of Oracle every time you're starting a new project? Probably not reach for their Postgres right? And so, because of that, that's where this is coming from and that's not going to change. And, and yeah, that that ecosystem is going to continue to, to thrive. And there'll be lots of different flavors in the growing open source ecosystem. >> Yeah. I mean, open source absolutely is the underpinning you know, the, the bedrock of innovation, these days. Gentlemen, great power panel. Thanks so much for bringing your perspectives and best of luck in the future. >> Thank you, next time we'll try and match our backgrounds >> Next time. Well, we'll up our game. Okay. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for theCUBE. Stay tuned for more great coverage. Postgres vision, 21. Be right back. (upbeat techno music)

>>what? Hello, I'm john free with the cube. I want to welcome Conrad Feldman, the founder and Ceo of Kwan cast here to kick off the quan cast industry summit on the demise of third party cookies. The events called the cookie conundrum, a recipe for success. The changing advertising landscape, super relevant conversation just now. More than ever. Conrad welcome to your own program kicking this off. Thanks for holding this event. It's a pleasure. Great to chat with you today. So a big fan been following your company since the founding of it. Been analytics is always the prize of any data driven company. Media. Anything's all data driven now. Um, talk about the open internet because now more than ever it's under siege. As I, as I mentioned in my open, um, we've been seeing the democratization, a new trend of decentralization. We're starting to see um, you know, everyone's present online now, Clay Shirky wrote a book called, here comes everyone in 2005. Well everyone's here. Right? So you know, we're here, it's gonna be more open. But yet people are looking at as close right now. You're seeing the big players, um, or in the data. What's your vision of this open internet? >>Well, an open internet exists for everyone. And if you think about the evolution of the internet, when the internet was created for the first time really in history, anyone that had access to the internet could publish the content, whatever they were interested in and could find an audience. And of course that's grown to where we are today, where five billion people around the world are able to engage in all sorts of content, whether that's entertainment or education, news, movies. What's perhaps not so widely understood is that most of that content is paid for by advertising and there's a lot of systems that support advertising on the open Internet and some of those are under siege today certainly. >>And what's the big pressure point? Is it just more control the data? Is it just that these walled gardens are wanting to, you know, suck the audience in there? Is that monetization driving it? What's where's the friction? >>Well, the challenges is sort of the accumulation of power into a really small number of now giant corporations who have actually reduced a lot of the friction that marketers have in spending their money effectively. And it means that those companies are capturing a disproportionate spend of the ad budgets that fund digital content. So the problem is if more of the money goes to them, less of its going to independent content creators. It's actually getting harder for independent voices to emerge and be heard. And so that's the real challenges. That has more power consolidates into just a limited number of tech giants. The funding path for the open Internet becomes constrained and there'll be less choice for consumers without having to pay for subscriptions. >>Everyone knows the more data you have the better and certainly, but the centralized power when the trend is going the other way, the consensus is everyone wants to be decentralized more truth, more trust all this is being talked about on the heels of the google's news around, you know, getting rid of third party cookies and others have followed suit. Um, what does this mean? I mean, this cookies have been the major vehicle for tracking and getting that kind of data. What is gonna be replaced with what is this all about? And can you share with us what the future will look like? >>Sure, Well, just as advertising funds the open Internet is advertising technology that supports that advertising spend. It supports sort of the business of advertising that funds the open Internet. And within all of that technology is the need for different systems to be able to align around um the identification of for example, a consumer, Have they been to this site before? Have they seen an ad before? So there's all of these different systems that might be used for advertising for measurement, for attribution, for creating personalization. And historically they've relied upon the third party cookie as the mechanism for synchronization. Well, the third party cookie has been in decline for some time. It's already mostly gone from actually apple safari browser, but google's chrome has so much control over how people access the internet. And so it was when Google announced that chrome was going to deprecate the third party cookie, that it really sort of focus the minds of the industry in terms of finding alternative ways to tailor content and ultimately to just simply measure the effectiveness of advertising. And so there's an enormous amount of um innovation taking place right now to find alternative solutions. >>You know, some are saying that the free open internet was pretty much killed when, you know, the big comes like facebook and google started bringing all this data and kind of pulls all sucks all the auction in the room, so to speak. What's this mean with cookies now getting, getting rid of um, by google has an impact publishers because is it helpful? I mean hurtful. I mean, where's the where is that, what the publisher impact? >>Well, I don't think anyone really knows right now. So first of all, cookies weren't necessarily a very good solution to the sort of the challenge of maintaining state and understanding those sorts of the delivery of advertising and so on. It's just the one that's commonly used, I think for different publishers it may mean different things. But many publishers need to be able to demonstrate the value and the effectiveness of the advertising solutions that they deliver. So they'll be innovating in terms of how they use their first party data. They'll be continuing to use contextual solutions that have long been used to create advertising relevant, relevant. I think the big question of course is how we're going to measure it that any of this is effective at all because everyone relies upon measuring advertising effectiveness to justify capturing those budgets in the first place. >>You know, you mentioned contextual come up a lot also in the other interviews we've done with the folks in the around the internet around this topic of machine learning is a big 12 What is the impact of this with the modernization of the solution? You mentioned cookies? Okay cookies, old technology. But the mechanisms in this ecosystem around it or not, it funds the open internet. What is that modern solution that goes that next level? Is it contextual metadata? Is that shared systems? What's the it's the modernization of that. >>It's all of those and and more. There's no there's no single solution to replace the third party cookie. There'll be a combination of solutions. Part of that will be alternative identity mechanisms. So you know, you will start to see more registration wars to access content so that you have what's called a deterministic identify there will be statistical models so called probabilistic models, contextual has always been important. It will become more important and it will be combined with we use contextual combining natural language processing with machine learning models to really understand the detailed context of different pages across the internet. You'll also see the use of first party data and there are discussions about shared data services as well. I think there's gonna be a whole set of different innovations that will need to inter operate and it's going to be an evolutionary process as people get used to using these different systems to satisfy the different stages of the media fulfillment cycle from research and planning to activation to measurement. >>You know, you put up walled gardens. I want to just touch on the on on this kind of concept of walled gardens and and and and compare and contrast that with the demand for community, open internet has always fostered a community vibe. You see network effects mostly in distinct user communities or subnets of sub networks. If you will kind of walled gardens became that kind of group get together but then became more of a media solution to make the user is the product, as they say, facebook's a great example, right? People talk about facebook and from that misinformation abuse walled garden is not the best thing happening right now in the world, but yet is there any other other choice? That's how they're going to make money? But yet everyone wants trust, truth community. Are they usually exclusive? How do you see this evolving, what's your take? >>Well, I think the open internet is a, is a forum where anyone can have their voice, uh, put their voice out there and have it discovered and it's in that regard, it's a it's a force for good look. I think there are there are challenges, obviously in terms of some of the some of the optimization that takes place with inside the walled gardens, which is, is sort of optimized to drive engagement can have some unintended consequences. Um obviously that's something that's, that's broadly being discussed today and the impact on society, but sort of more at a more pointed level, it's just the absorption of advertising dollars. There's a finite amount of money from advertisers. It's estimated to be $400 billion this year in digital advertising. So it's a huge amount of money in terms of funding the open Internet, which sounds great except for its increasingly concentrated in a tiny number of companies. And so, you know, our job at Quan cast as champions of the free and open Internet is to help direct money effectively to publishers across the open internet and give advertisers a reliable, repeatable way of accessing the audiences that they care about in the environment they care about and delivering advertising results. >>It's a publisher, we care a lot about what our audience wants and try to serve them and listen to them. If we could get the data, we want that data and then also broker in the monetization with advertisers, who might want to reach that audience in whatever way. So this brings up the question of, you know, automation and role of data. You know, this is a huge thing to having that data closed loop, if you will for for publishers. But yet most publishers are small, some niche. And even as they can become super large, they don't have all the data and more, the more data, the better the machine learning. So what's the answer to this as it goes forward? How do we get there? What's the dots that that we need to connect to get that future state? >>So I think it takes it takes companies working together effectively. I think a really important part of it is, is a more direct conversation with consumers. We've seen that change beginning to happen over the past few years with the introduction of regulations that require clear communication to consumers about the data that's captured. And y and I think that creates an opportunity to explain to your audience is the way in which content is funded. So I think that consumer that consumer conversation will be part of the collective solution. >>You know, I want to as we wind down this kickoff segment, get your thoughts and vision around um, the evolution of the internet and you guys have done some great work at quan Cast is well documented, but everyone used to talk about traffic by traffic, then it became cost of acquisitions. PPC search. This is either mechanisms that people have been using for a long, long time, then you know, your connections but audience is about traffic, audience traffic. If this if my family is online, doesn't it become about networks and the people. So I want to get your thoughts and your vision because if community is going to be more important than people agree that it is and things are gonna be decentralized, more openness, more voices to be heard. You need to dress ability. The formation of networks and groups become super important. What's your vision on that? >>So my vision is to create relevance and utility for consumers. I think that's one of the things that's often forgotten is that when we make advertising more relevant and useful for consumers, it automatically fulfils the objectives that publishers and marketers have, everyone wins when advertising is more relevant. And our vision is to make advertising relevant across the entire open internet so that that ad supported model can continue to flourish and that five billion and hopefully many more billions in the future, people around the world have access to high quality, diverse content. >>If someone asked you Conrad, what is quant cast doing to make the open internet viable now that cookies are going away? What's the answer? >>So well, the cookie pieces is a central piece of it in terms of finding solutions that will enable sort of planning activation and measurement post cookies and we have a lot of innovation going on. There were also working with a range of industry bodies and our and our partners to build solutions for this. What we're really trying to do is to make buying the open internet as straightforward for marketers as it is today and buying the walled gardens. The reason the walled gardens capture so much money is they made it really easy for marketers to get results, marketers would like to be able to spend their money across all of the diverse publishes the open internet. You know, our job at Comcast is to make it just as easy to effectively spend money in funding the content that they really care about in reaching the audiences that they want. >>Great stuff. Great Mission. Conrad, thanks for coming on. Conrad Feldmann founder and Ceo here at the cookie conundrum recipe for success event, Quant Cast Industry summit on the demise of third party cookies. Thank you. Conrad appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah, I'm john ferrier, stay with us for more on the industry event around the middle cookies. Mhm Yeah, yeah, thank you. Mhm. Welcome back to the Qantas industry summit on the demise of third party cookies, the cookie conundrum, a recipe for success. I'm john furrier host of the cube, the changing landscape of advertising is here and shit Gupta, founder of you of digital is joining us chief. Thanks for coming on this segment. Really appreciate, I know you're busy, you've got two young kids as well as providing education to the digital industry, you got some kids to take care of and train them to. So welcome to the cube conversation here as part of the program. >>Yeah, thanks for having me excited to be here. >>So the office of the changing landscape of advertising really centers around the open to walled garden mindset of the web and the big power players. We know the big 34 tech players dominate the marketplace so clearly in a major inflection point and we've seen this movie before Web mobile revolution which was basically a reply platform NG of capabilities. But now we're in an error of re factoring the industry, not re platt forming a complete changing over of the value proposition. So a lot at stake here as this open web, open internet, global internet evolves. What are your, what's your take on this, this industry proposals out there that are talking to this specific cookie issue? What does it mean? And what proposals are out there? >>Yeah, so, you know, I I really view the identity proposals and kind of to to kind of groups, two separate groups. So on one side you have what the walled gardens are doing and really that's being led by google. Right, so google um you know, introduce something called the privacy sandbox when they announced that they would be deprecating third party cookies uh as part of the privacy sandbox, they've had a number of proposals unfortunately, or you know, however you want to say they're all bird themed for some reason, I don't know why. Um but the one, the bird theme proposal that they've chosen to move forward with is called flock, which stands for Federated learning of cohorts. And essentially what it all boils down to is google is moving forward with cohort level learning and understanding of users in the future after third party cookies, unlike what we've been accustomed to in this space, which is a user level understanding of people and what they're doing online for targeting tracking purposes. And so that's on one side of the equation, it's what google is doing with flock and privacy sandbox now on the other side is, you know, things like unified I. D. Two point or the work that I. D five is doing around building new identity frameworks for the entire space that actually can still get down to the user level. Right? And so again, unified I. D. Two point oh comes to mind because it's the one that's probably got the most adoption in the space. It's an open source framework. So the idea is that it's free and pretty much publicly available to anybody that wants to use it and unified, I need to point out again is user level. So it's it's basically taking data that's authenticated data from users across various websites you know that are logging in and taking those authenticated users to create some kind of identity map. And so if you think about those two work streams right, you've got the walled gardens and or you know, google with flock on one side and then you've got unified I. D. Two point oh and other I. D. Frameworks for the open internet. On the other side, you've got these two very differing type of approaches to identity in the future. Again on the google side it's cohort level, it's going to be built into chrome. Um The idea is that you can pretty much do a lot of the things that we do with advertising today, but now you're just doing it at a group level so that you're protecting privacy, whereas on the other side of the open internet you're still getting down to the user level. Um And that's pretty powerful. But the the issue there is scale, right? We know that a lot of people are not logged in on lots of websites. I think the stat that I saw is under five of all website traffic is authenticated. So really if you if you simplify things you boil it all down, you have kind of these two very differing approaches. >>I guess the question it really comes down to what alternatives are out there for cookies and which ones do you think will be more successful? Because I think, you know, the consensus is at least from my reporting, in my view, is that the world agrees. Let's make it open, Which one is going to be better. >>Yeah, that's a great question, john So as I mentioned, right, we have we have to kind of work streams here, we've got the walled garden work streams, work stream being led by google and their work around flock, and then we've got the open internet, right? Let's say unified I. D to kind of represents that. I personally don't believe that there is a right answer or an endgame here. I don't think that one of them wins over the other, frankly, I think that, you know, first of all, you have those two frameworks, neither of them are perfect, they're both flawed in their own ways. There are pros and cons to both of them. And so what we're starting to see now is you have other companies kind of coming in and building on top of both of them as kind of a hybrid solution. Right? So they're saying, hey, we use, you know, an open I. D. Framework in this way to get down to the user level and use that authenticated data and that's important. But we don't have all the scale. So now we go to google and we go to flock to kind of fill the scale. Oh and hey, by the way, we have some of our own special sauce, right? We have some of our own data, we have some of our own partnerships, we're gonna bring that in and layer it on top. Right? And so really where I think things are headed is the right answer, frankly, is not one or the other. It's a little mishmash of both. With a little extra something on top. I think that's that's what we're starting to see out of a lot of companies in the space. And I think that's frankly where we're headed. >>What do you think the industry will evolve to, in your opinion? Because I think this is gonna, you can't ignore the big guys on this because these programmatic you mentioned also the data is there. But what do you think the market will evolve to with this, with this conundrum? >>So, so I think john where we're headed? You know, I think we're right now we're having this existential existential crisis, right? About identity in this industry, because our world is being turned upside down, all the mechanisms that we've used for years and years are being thrown out the window and we're being told they were gonna have new mechanisms, Right? So cookies are going away device ids are going away and now we got to come up with new things and so the world is being turned upside down and everything that you read about in the trades and you know, we're here talking about it, right? Like everyone's always talking about identity right now, where do I think this is going if I was to look into my crystal ball, you know, this is how I would kind of play this out. If you think about identity today. Right? Forget about all the changes. Just think about it now and maybe a few years before today, Identity for marketers in my opinion has been a little bit of a checkbox activity. Right? It's been hey, um, okay, uh, you know ad tech company or a media company, do you have an identity solution? Okay. Tell me a little bit more about it. Okay, Sounds good. That sounds good. Now can we move on and talk about my business and how are you going to drive meaningful outcomes or whatever for my business? And I believe the reason that is, is because identity is a little abstract, right? It's not something that you can actually get meaningful validation against. It's just something that, you know. Yes, You have it. Okay, great. Let's move on, type of thing. Right. And so that, that's, that's kind of where we've been now, all of a sudden The cookies are going away, the device ids are going away. And so the world is turning upside down in this crisis of how are we going to keep doing what we were doing for the last 10 years in the future. So everyone's talking about it and we're trying to re engineer right? The mechanisms now if I was to look into the crystal ball right 2 3 years from now where I think we're headed is not much is going to change. And what I mean by that john is um uh I think that marketers will still go to companies and say do you have an ID solution? Okay tell me more about it. Okay uh Let me understand a little bit better. Okay you do it this way. Sounds good. Now the ways in which companies are going to do it will be different right now. It's flock and unified I. D. And this and that right. The ways the mechanisms will be a little bit different but the end state right? Like the actual way in which we operate as an industry and kind of like the view of the landscape in my opinion will be very simple or very similar, right? Because marketers will still view it as a tell me you have an ID solution. Make me feel good about it. Help me check the box and let's move on and talk about my business and how you're going to solve for my needs. So I think that's where we're going. That is not by any means to discount this existential moment that we're in. This is a really important moment where we do have to talk about and figure out what we're going to do in the future. My just my viewpoint is that the future will actually not look all that different than the present. >>And I'll say the user base is the audience. Their their data behind it helps create new experiences, machine learning and Ai are going to create those and we have the data you have the sharing it or using it as we're finding shit Gupta great insight dropping some nice gems here. Founder of you of Digital and also the Adjunct professor of Programmatic advertising at Levi School of Business and santa Clara University professor. Thank you for coming dropping the gems here and insight. Thank you. >>Thanks a lot for having me john really appreciate >>it. Thanks for watching. The cooking 100 is the cube host Jon ferrier me. Thanks for watching. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Hello welcome back to the cookie conundrum recipe for success and industry conference and summit from Guanacaste on the demise of third party cookies. Got a great industry panel here to break it down chris Gunther Senior Vice president Global Head of programmatic at news corp chris thanks for coming on Zal in Managing Director Solutions at Z axis and Summer Simpson. Vice president Product at quan cast stellar panel. Looking forward to this conversation. Uh thanks for coming on and chatting about the cookie conundrum. Thank you for having us. So chris we'll start with you at news corp obviously a major publisher deprecation of third party cookies affects everyone. You guys have a ton of traffic, ton of audience across multiple formats. Um, tell us about the impact to you guys and the reliance he has had on them. And what are you gonna do to prepare for this next level change? >>Sure. I mean, I think like everyone in this industry there's uh a significant reliance and I think it's something that a lot of talk about audience targeting but obviously that reliance on third party cookies pervasive across the whole at tech ecosystem Martek stack. And so you know, we have to think about how that impact vendor vendors, we work with what it means in terms of use cases across marketing, across advertising, across site experience. So, you know, without a doubt, it it's it's significant, but you know, we look at it as listen, it's disruptive, uh, disruption and change is always a little scary. Um, but overall it's a, it's a long overdue reset. I mean, I think that, you know, our perspective is that the cookies, as we all know was it was a crutch, right sort of a technology being used in way it shouldn't. Um, and so as we look at what's going to happen presumably after Jan 2022 then it's, it's a good way to kind of fix on some bad practices practices that lead to data leakage, um, practice or devalue for our perspective, some of the, you know, we offered as as publishers and I think that this is a key thing is that we're not just looking to as we look at the post gender world, not just kind of recreating the prior world because the prior world was flawed or I guess you could say the current world since it hasn't changed yet. But the current world is flawed. Let's not just not, you know, let's not just replicate that. Let's make sure that, you know, third party cookie goes away. Other work around like fingerprinting and things like that. You know, also go away so philosophically, that's where our heads at. And so as we look at how we are preparing, you know, you look at what are the core building blocks of preparing for this world. Obviously one of the key ones is privacy compliance. Like how do we treat our users with consent? Yeah, obviously. Are we um aligned with the regulatory environments? Yeah. In some ways we're not looking just a Jan 2022, but Jan 23 where there's gonna be the majority of our audiences we covered by regulation. And so I think from regulation up to data gathering to data activation, all built around an internal identifier that we've developed that allows us to have a consistent look at our users whether they're logged in or obviously anonymous. So it's really looking across all those components across all our sites and in all in a privacy compliant way. So a lot of work to be done, a lot of work in progress. But we're >>excited about what's going on. I like how you framed at Old world or next gen kind of the current situation kind of flawed. And as you think about programmatic, the concept is mind blowing and what needs to be done. So we'll come back to that because I think that original content view is certainly relevant, a huge investment and you've got great content and audience consuming it from a major media standpoint. Get your perspective on the impact because you've got clients who want to get their their message out in front of the audience at the right time, at the right place and the right context. Right, So your privacy, you got consent, all these things kind of boiling up. How do you help clients prepare? Because now they can go direct to the consumer. Everyone, everyone has a megaphone, now, everyone's, everyone's here, everyone's connected. So how are you impacted by this new notion? >>You know, if if the cookie list future was a tic tac, dance will be dancing right now, and at least into the next year, um this has been top of mind for us and our clients for quite some time, but I think as each day passes, the picture becomes clearer and more in focus. Uh the end of the third party cookie does not mean the end of programmatic. Um so clients work with us in transforming their investments into real business outcomes based on our expertise and based on our tech. So we continue to be in a great position to lead to educate, to partner and to grow with them. Um, along this uh cookie list future, the impact will be all encompassing in changing the ways we do things now and also accelerating the things that we've already been building on. So we take it from the top planning will have a huge impact because it's gonna start becoming more strategic around real business outcomes. Uh where Omni channel, So clients want to drive outcomes, drew multiple touch points of a consumer's journey, whether it has programmatic, whether it has uh cookie free environment, like connected tv, digital home audio, gaming and so forth. So we're going to see more of these strategic holistic plans. Creative will have a lot of impact. It will start becoming more important with creative testing. Creative insights. You know, creative in itself is cookie list. So there will be more focused on how to drive uh brand dialogue to connect to consumers with less targeting. With less cookies, with the cohesiveness of holistic planning. Creative can align through multiple channels and lastly, the role of a. I will become increasingly important. You know, we've always looked to build our tech our products to complement new and existing technology as well as the client's own data and text back to deliver these outcomes for them. And ai in its core it's just taking input data uh and having an output of your desired outcome. So input data could be dSP data beyond cookies such as browser such as location, such as contextual or publisher taking clients first party data, first party crm data like store visitation, sales, site activity. Um and using that to optimize in real time regardless of what vendor or what channel we're on. Um So as we're learning more about this cookie list dance, we're helping our clients on the steps of it and also introducing our own moves. >>That's awesome. Data is going to be a key value proposition, connecting in with content real time. Great stuff. Somewhere with your background in journalism and you're the tech VP of product at quan cast. You have the keys to the kingdom over there. It's interesting Journalism is about truth and good content original content. But now you have a data challenge problem opportunity on both sides, brands and publishers coming together. It's a data problem in a way it's a it's a tech stack, not so much just getting the right as to show up at the right place the right time. It's really bigger than that now. What's your take on this? >>Um you know, >>so first >>I think that consumers already sort of like except that there is a reasonable value exchange for their data in order to access free content. Right? And that's that's a critical piece for us to all kind of like understand over the past. Hi guys, probably two years since even even before the G. D. P. R. We've been doing a ton of discovery with customers, both publishers and marketers. Um and so you know, we've kind of known this, this cookie going away thing has been coming. Um And you know, Google's announcement just kind of confirmed it and it's been, it's been really, really interesting since Google's announcement, how the conversations have changed with with our customers and other folks that we talked to. And I've almost gone from being like a product manager to a therapist because there's such an emotional response. Um you know, from the marketing perspective, there's real fear there. There's like, oh my God, how you know, it's not just about, you know, delivering ads, it's about how do I control frequency? How do I, how do I measure, you know, success? Because the technology has has grown so much over the years to really give marketers the ability to deliver personalized advertising, good content, right. The consumers um and be able to monitor it and control it so that it's not too too intrusive on the publisher perspective side, we see slightly different response. It's more of a yes, right. You know, we're taking back control and we're going to stop the data leakage, we're going to get the value back for our inventory. Um and that both things are a good thing, but if it's, if it's not managed, it's going to be like ships passing in the night, right? In terms of um of, you know, they're there, them coming together, right, and that's the critical pieces that they have to come together. They have to get closer, you got to cut out a lot of that loom escape in the middle so that they can talk to each other and understand what's the value exchange happening between marketers and publishers and how do we do that without cookies? >>It's a fascinating, I love love your insight there. I think it's so relevant and it's got broader implications because, you know, if you look at how data's impact, some of these big structural changes and re factoring of industries, look at cyber security, you know, no one wants to share their data, but now if they share they get more insight, more machine learning, benefit more ai benefit. So now we have the sharing notion, but that goes against counter the big guys that want to wall garden, they want to hoard all the data and and control that to provide their own personalization. So you have this confluence of, hey, I want to hoard the data and then now I want to share the data. So so christmas summer you're in the, in the wheelhouse, you got original content and there's other providers out there. So is there the sharing model coming with privacy and these kinds of services? Is the open, come back again? How do you guys see this uh confluence of open versus walled gardens, because you need the data to make machine learning good. >>So I'll start uh start off, I mean, listen, I think you have to give credit to the walled gardens have created, I think as we look as publishers, what are we offering to our clients, what are we offering to the buy side? We need to be compelling. We shouldn't just be uh yeah, actually as journalists, I think that there is a case of the importance of funding journalism. Um but ultimately we need to make sure we're meeting the KPI is and the business needs of the buy side. And I think around that it is the sort of three core pillars that its ease of access, its scope of of activation and targeting and finally measurable results. So as I think is us as an individual publishers, so we have, we have multiple publications. So we do have scale. But then in partnership with other publishers perhaps to organizations like pre bid, you know, I think we can, you know, we're trying to address that and I think we can offer something that's compelling um, and transparent in terms of what these results are. But obviously, you know, I want to make sure it's clear transparent terms of results, but obviously where there's privacy in terms of the data and I think the form, you know, I think we've all heard a lot like data clean rooms, a lot of them out there flogging those wears. I think there's something valuable but you know, I think it's the right who is sort of the right partner or partners um and ultimately who allows us to get as close as possible to the buy side. And so that we can share that data for targeting, share it for perhaps for measurement, but obviously all in a privacy compliant >>way summer, what's your take on this? Because you talk about the future of the open internet democratization, the network effect that we're seeing in Vire al Itty and across multiple on the on the channels. Is that pointed out what's happening? That's the distribution now. So um that's almost an open garden model. So it's like um yeah, >>yeah, it's it's um you know, back in the day, you know, um knight ridder who was who was the first group that I that I worked for, um you know, each of those individual properties, um we're not hugely valuable on their own from a digital perspective, but together as a unit, they became valuable, right, and got scale for advertisers. Now we're in a place where, you know, I kind of think that each of those big networks are going to have to come together and work together to compare in size to the, to the world gardens. Um, and yeah, this is something that we've talked about before and an open garden. Um, I think that's the, that's the definitely the right route to take. And I and I agree with chris it's, it's about publishers getting as close to the market. Is it possible working with the tech companies that enable them to do that and doing so in a very privacy centric >>way. So how do we bring the brands and agencies together to get ready for third party cookies? Because there is a therapist moment here of it's gonna be okay. The parachute will open. The future is not gonna be as as grim. Um, it's a real opportunity. But if managed properly, what's your take on this is just more first party data strategy and what's your assessment of this? >>So we collaborated right now with ball grants on how did this still very complex cookie list future. Um, you know what's going to happen in the future? 2, 6 steps that we can take right now and market should take. Um, The first step is to gather intel on what's working on your current campaign, analyzing the data sets across cookie free environment. So you can translate those tactics eventually when the cookies do go away. So we have to look at things like temperature or time analysis. We could look at log level data. We could look at site analytics data. We can look at brand measurement tools and how creative really impacts the campaign success. The second thing we can look at is geo targeting strategies. The geo target strategy has been uh underrated because the granularity and geo data could go down all the way to the local level, even beyond zip code. So for example the census black data and this is especially important for CPG brands. So we're working closely with the client teams to understand not only the online data but the offline data and how we can utilize that in the future. Uh We want to optimize investments around uh markets that are working so strong markets and then test and underperforming markets. The third thing we can look at is contextual. So contextual by itself is cookie free. Uh We could build on small scale usage to test and learn various keywords and content categories based sets. Working closely with partners to find ways to leverage their data to mimic audiences that you are trying to target right now with cookies. Um the 4th 1 is publisher data or publisher targeting. So working with your publishers that you have strong relationships with who can curate similar audiences using their own first party data and conducting RFs to understand the scale and reach against your audience and their future role maps. So work with your top publishers based on historical data to try to recreate your best strategies. The 15 and I think this is very important is first party data, you know, that's going to matter more than ever. In the calculus future brands will need to think about how to access and developed the first party data starting with the consumers seeing a value in exchange for the information. It's a gold mine and understanding of consumer, their intent, the journey um and you need a really great data science team to extract insights out of that data, which will be crucial. So partner with strategic onboarding vendors and vet their ability to accept first party data into a cleaner environment for targeting for modeling for insight. And lastly, the six thing that we can do is begin to inform prospect prospecting by dedicating test budget to start gaining learnings about cookie list 11 place that we can start and it is under invested right now is Safari and Firefox. They have been calculus for quite some time so you can start here and begin testing here. Uh work with your data scientist team to understand the right mix is to to target and start exploring other channels outside of um just programmatic cookies like CTV digital, out of home radio gaming and so forth. So those are the six steps that we're taking right now with our clients to uh prepare and plan for the cookie list future. >>So chris let's go back to you. What's the solution here? Is there one, is there multiple solutions? What's the future look like for a cookie was future? >>Uh I think the one certain answers, they're definitely not just one solution. Um as we all know right now there there seems to be endless solutions, a lot of ideas out there, proposals with the W three C uh work happening within other industry bodies uh you know private companies solutions being offered and you know, it's a little bit of it's enough to make everyone's head spin and to try to track it to understand and understand the impact. And as a publisher were obviously a lot of people are knocking on our door. Uh they're saying, hey our solution is one that is going to bring in lots of money, you know, the all the buy side is going to use it. This is the one like I ma call to spend um, and so expect here and so far is that none of these solutions are I think everyone is still testing and learning no one on the buy side from our, from our knowledge is really committed to one or a few. It's all about a testing stage. I think that, you know, putting aside all that noise, I think what matters the most to us as publisher is actually something summer mentioned before. It's about control. You know, if we're going to work with a again, outside of our sort of, you know, internal identifier work that we're doing is we're going to work with an outside party or outside approach doesn't give us control as a publisher to ensure that it is, we control the data from our users. There isn't that data leakage, it's probably compliant. What information gets shared out there. What is it, what's released within within the bid stream? Uh If it is something that's attached to a somewhat declared user registered user that if that then is not somehow amplified or leverage off on another site in a way that is leveraging bit stream data or fingerprinting and going against. I think that the spirit of what we're trying to do in a post third party cookie world so that those controls are critical and I think they have those controls, his publisher, we have collectively be disciplined in what solutions that we we test out and what we eventually adopt. But even when the adoption point arrives, uh definitely it will not be one. There will be multiple because it's just too many use cases to address >>great, great insight there from, from you guys, news corp summer. Let's get back to you. I want to get your thoughts. You've been in many waves of innovation ups and downs were on a new one. Now we talked about the open internet democratization. Journalism is under a lot of pressure now, but there's now a wave of quality people really leaning in towards fighting misinformation, understanding truth and community and date is at the heart of it. What do you see as the new future for journalists, reward journalism is our ways their path forward. >>So there's uh, there's what I hope is going to happen. Um, and then I'm just gonna ignore what could write. Um, you know, there's there's a trend in market right now, a number of fronts, right? So there are marketers who are leaning into wanting to spend their marketing dollars with quality journalists, focusing on bipac owned and operated, really leaning into into supporting those businesses that have been uh, those publishers that have been ignored for years. I really hope that this trend continues. Um We are leaning into into helping um, marketers curate that supply right? And really, uh, you know, speak with their dollars about the things that that they support. Um, and uh, and and value right in market. So I'm hoping that that trend continues and it's not just sort of like a marketing blip. Um, but we will do everything possible to kind of like encourage that behavior and and give people the information they need to find, you know, truly high quality journalism. >>That's awesome chris Summer. Thanks for coming on and sharing your insight on this panel on the cookie list future. Before we go, just quick summary each of you. If you don't mind just giving a quick sound bite or bumper sticker of what we can expect. If you had to throw a prediction For what's going to happen in the next 24 months Chris We'll start with you. >>Uh it's gonna be quite a ride. I think that's an understatement. Um I think that there, I wouldn't be surprised if if google delays the change to the chrome by a couple of months and and may give the industry some much needed time, but no one knows. I guess. I guess I'm not except for someone somewhere deep within chrome. So I think we all have to operate in a way that changes to happen, changes to happen quickly and it's gonna cover across all facets of the industry, all facets of from advertising, marketing. So just be >>prepared. >>Yeah, along the same lines, be prepared, nobody knows what's going to happen in the future. Uh You know, while dancing in this together. Uh I think um for us it's um planning and preparing and also building on what we've already been working on. Um So omni channel ai um creative and I think clients will uh lean more into those different channels, >>awesome. So we'll pick us home, last word. >>I think we're in the throwing spaghetti against the wall stage. Right, so this is a time of discovery of leaning in trying everything out, Learning and iterating as fast as we possibly >>can. Awesome. And I love the cat in the background over your shoulder. Can't stop staring at your wonderful cat. Thanks for coming on chris, Thanks for coming on. This awesome panel industry breakdown of the cookie conundrum. The recipe for success data ai open. Uh The future is here, it's coming, it's coming fast. I'm john fryer with the cube. Thanks for watching. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Welcome back to the Quant Cast industry summit on the demise of third party cookies. The cookie conundrum, a recipe for success. We're here peter day. The cto of quad cast and crew T cop car, head of product marketing quad cast. Thanks for coming on talking about the changing advertising landscape. >>Thanks for having us. Thank you for having >>us. So we've been hearing this story out to the big players. Want to keep the data, make that centralized control, all the leverage and then you've got the other end. You got the open internet that still wants to be free and valuable for everyone. Uh what's what are you guys doing to solve this problem? Because cookies go away? What's going to happen there? How do people track things you guys are in this business first question? What is quan cast strategies to adapt to third party cookies going away? What's gonna be, what's gonna be the answer? >>Yeah. So uh very rightly said, john the mission, the Qantas mission is the champion of free and open internet. Uh And with that in mind, our approach to this world without third party cookies is really grounded in three fundamental things. Uh First as industry standards, we think it's really important to participate and to work with organizations who are defining the standards that will guide the future of advertising. So with that in mind, we've been participating >>with I. A. B. >>Tech lab, we've been part of their project Triarc. Uh same thing with pre bid, who's kind of trying to figure out the pipes of identity. Di di di di di pipes of uh of the future. Um And then also is W three C, which is the World Wide Web Consortium. Um And our engineers and our engineering team are participating in their weekly meetings trying to figure out what's happening with the browsers and keeping up with the progress they're on things such as google's block. Um The second uh sort of thing is interoperability, as you've mentioned, there are lots of different uh I. D. Solutions that are emerging. You have you I. D. Two point oh, you have live RAM, you have google's flock. Uh And there will be more, there are more and they will continue to be more. Uh We really think it is important to build a platform that can ingest all of these signals. And so that's what we've done. Uh The reason really is to meet our customers where they are at today. Our customers use multiple different data management platforms, the mps. Um and that's why we support multiple of those. Um This is not going to be much different than that. We have to meet our customers where we are, where they are at. And then finally, of course, which is at the very heart of who contrast is innovation. Uh As you can imagine being able to take all of these multiple signals in including the I. D. S. And the cohorts, but also others like contextual first party um consent is becoming more and more important. Um And then there are many other signals, like time, language geo location. So all of these signals can help us understand user behavior intent and interests um in absence of 3rd party cookies. However, uh there's there's something to note about this. They're very raw, their complex, they're messy all of these different signals. Um They are changing all the time, they're real time. Um And there's incomplete information isolation. Just one of these signals cannot help you build a true and complete picture. So what you really need is a technology like AI and machine learning to really bring all of these signals together, combine them statistically and get an understanding of user behavior intent and interests and then act on it, be it in terms of providing audience insights um or responding to bid requests and and so on and so forth. So those are sort of the three um fundamentals that our approach is grounded in which is industry standards, interoperability and and innovation. Uh and you know, you have peter here, who is who is the expert So you can dive much deeper into >>it. Is T. T. O. You've got to tell us how is this going to actually work? What are you guys doing from a technology standpoint to help with data driven advertising in a third party cookie list world? >>Well, we've been um This is not a shock, you know, I think anyone who's been close to his space has known that the 3rd Party Cookie has been um uh reducing inequality in terms of its pervasiveness and its longevity for many years now. And the kind of death knell is really google chrome making a, making the changes that they're gonna be making. So we've been investing in the space for many years. Um and we've had to make a number of hugely diverse investment. So one of them is in how as a marketer, how do I tell if my marketing still working in the world without >>computers? The >>majority of marketers completely reliant on third party cookies today to tell them if they're if they're marketing is working or not. And so we've had to invest heavily and statistical techniques which are closer to kind of economic trick models that markets are used to things like out of home advertising, It's going to establishing whether they're advertising is working or not in a digital environment actually, >>just as >>often, you know, as is often the case in these kind of times of massive disruption, there's always opportunity to make things better. And we really think that's true. And you know, digital measurement has often mistaken precision for accuracy. And there's a real opportunity to kind of see the wood for the trees if you like. And start to come with better methods of measuring the affections of advertising without third party cookies. And in fact to make countless other investments in areas like contextual modeling and and targeting that third party cookies and and uh, connecting directly to publishers rather than going through this kind of bloom escape that's gonna tied together third party cookies. So if I was to enumerate all the investments we've made, I think we'll be here till midnight but we have to make a number of vestments over a number of years and that level investments only increasing at the moment. >>Peter on that contextual. Can you just double click on that and tell us more? >>Yeah, I mean contextual is unfortunately these things, this is really poorly defined. It can mean everything from a publisher saying, hey, trust us, this dissipated about CVS to what's possible now and has only really been possible the last couple of years, which is to build >>statistical >>models of the entire internet based on the content that people are actually consumed. And this type of technology requires massive data processing capabilities. It's able to take advantage of the latest innovations in there is like natural language processing and really gives um computers are kind of much deeper and richer understanding of the internet, which ultimately makes it possible to kind of organize, organized the Internet in terms of the types of content of pages. So this type of technology has only been possible the last two years and we've been using contextual signals since our inception, it's always been massively predictive in terms of audience behaviours, in terms of where advertising is likely to work. And so we've been very fortunate to keep the investment going um and take advantage of many of these innovations that have happened in academia and in kind of uh in adjacent areas >>on the ai machine learning aspect, that seems to be a great differentiator in this day and age for getting the most out of the data. How is machine learning and ai factoring into your platform? >>I think it's, it's how we've always operated right from our interception when we started as a measurement company, the way that we were giving our customers at the time, we were just publishers, just the publisher side of our business insights into who their audience was, were, was using machine learning techniques. And that's never really changed. The foundation of our platform has always been, has always been machine learning from from before. It was cool. A lot of our kind of, a lot of our core teams have backgrounds in machine learning phds in statistics and machine learning and and that really drives our our decision making. I mean, data is only useful if you can make sense of it and if you can organize it and if you can take action on it and to do that at this kind of scout scale, it's absolutely necessary to use machine learning technology. >>So you mentioned contextual also, you know, in advertising, everyone knows in that world that you've got the contextual behavioural dynamics, the behavior that's kind of generally everyone's believing is happening. The consensus is undeniable is that people are wanting to expect an environment where there's trust, there's truth, but also they want to be locked in. They don't wanna get walled into a walled garden, nobody wants to be in the world, are they want to be free to pop around and visit sites is more horizontal scalability than ever before. Yet, the bigger players are becoming walled garden, vertical platforms. So with future of ai the experience is going to come from this data. So the behavior is out there. How do you get that contextual relevance and provide the horizontal scale that users expect? >>Yeah, I think it's I think it's a really good point and we're definitely this kind of tipping point. We think, in the broader industry, I think, you know, every published right, we're really blessed to work with the biggest publishers in the world, all the way through to my mom's vlog, right? So we get to hear the perspectives of publishers at every scale. I think they consistently tell us the same thing, which is they want to more directly connected consumers, they don't wanna be tied into these walled gardens, which dictate how they must present their content and in some cases what content they're allowed to >>present. >>Um and so our job as a company is to really provide level >>the playing field a little bit, >>provide them the same capabilities they're only used to in the walled gardens, but let's give them more choice in terms of how they structure their content, how they organize their content, how they organize their audiences, but make sure that they can fund that effectively by making their audiences in their environments discoverable by marketers measurable by marketers and connect them as directly as possible to make that kind of ad funded economic model as effective in the open Internet as it is in social. And so a lot of the investments we've made over recent years have been really to kind of realize that vision, which is, it should be as easy for a marketer to be able to understand people on the open internet as it is in social media. It should be as effective for them to reach people in the environment is really high quality content as it is on facebook. And so we invest a lot of a lot of our R and D dollars in making that true. We're now live with the Comcast platform, which does exactly that. And as third party cookies go away, it only um only kind of exaggerated or kind of further emphasizes the need for direct connections between brands and publishers. And so we just wanna build the technology that helps make that true and gives the kind of technology to these marketers and publishers to connect and to deliver great experiences without relying on these kind of walled >>gardens. Yeah, the Director Director, Consumer Director audience is a new trend. You're seeing it everywhere. How do you guys support this new kind of signaling from for for that's happening in this new world? How do you ingest the content and just this consent uh signaling? >>Uh we were really fortunate to have an amazing, amazing R and D. Team and, you know, we've had to do all sorts to make this, you need to realize our vision. This has meant things like, you know, we have crawlers which scan the entire internet at this point, extract the content of the pages and kind of make sense of it and organize it uh, and organize it for publishers so they can understand how their audiences overlap with potential competitors or collaborators. But more importantly, organize it for marketers. So you can understand what kind of high impact opportunities are there for them there. So, you know, we've had to we've had to build a lot of technology. We've had to build analytics engines, which can get answers back in seconds so that marketers and publishers can kind of interact with their own data and make sense of it and present it in a way that's compelling and help them drive their strategy as well as their execution. We've had to invest in areas like consent management because we believe that a free and open internet is absolutely reliant on trust and therefore we spend a lot of our time thinking about how do we make it easy for end users to understand who has access to their data and easy for end users to be able to opt out. And uh and as a result of that, we've now got the world's most widely adopted adopted consent management platform. So it's hard to tackle one of these problems without tackling all of them. Were fortunate enough to have had a large enough R and D budget over the last four or five years, make a number investments, everything from consent and identity through context, your signals through the measurement technologies, which really bring advertisers >>and Publishers places together great insight. Last word for you is what's the what's the customer view here as you bring these new capabilities of the platform, uh what's what are you guys seeing as the highlight uh from a platform perspective? >>So the initial response that we've seen from our customers has been very encouraging, both on the publisher side as well as the marketer side. Um I think, you know, one of the things we hear quite a lot is uh you guys are at least putting forth a solution, an actual solution for us to test Peter mentioned measurement, that really is where we started because you cannot optimize what you cannot measure. Um so that that is where his team has started and we have some measurement very, very uh initial capabilities still in alpha, but they are available in the platform for marketers to test out today. Um so the initial response has been very encouraging. People want to engage with us um of course our, you know, our fundamental value proposition, which is that the Qantas platform was never built to be reliant on on third party data. These stale segments like we operate, we've always operated on real time live data. Um The second thing is, is our premium publisher relationships. We have had the privilege of working like Peter said with some of the um biggest publishers, but we also have a very wide footprint. We have first party tags across um over 100 million plus web and mobile destinations. Um and you know, as you must have heard like that sort of first party footprint is going to come in really handy in a world without third party cookies, we are encouraging all of our customers, publishers and marketers to grow their first party data. Um and so that that's something that's a strong point that customers love about us and and lean into it quite a bit. Um So yeah, the initial response has been great. Of course it doesn't hurt that we've made all these are in the investments. We can talk about consent. Um, and you know, I often say that consent, it sounds simple, but it isn't, there's a lot of technology involved, but there's lots of uh legal work involved as it as well. We have a very strong legal team who has expertise built in. So yeah, very good response. Initially >>democratization. Everyone's a publisher. Everyone's a media company. They have to think about being a platform. You guys provide that. So I congratulate Peter. Thanks for dropping the gems there. Shruti, thanks for sharing the product highlights. Thanks for, for your time. Thank you. Okay, this is the quan cast industry summit on the demise of third party cookies. And what's next? The cookie conundrum. The recipe for success with Kwan Cast. I'm john free with the cube. Thanks for watching. Mm

>>mhm Yes. Welcome back to the Qantas industry summit on the demise of third party cookies, the cookie conundrum, a recipe for success. I'm john furrier host of the cube. The changing landscape of advertising is here and Chip Gupta, founder of you of digital is joining us Chip, thanks for coming on this segment. Really appreciate, I know you're busy, you've got two young kids as well as providing education to the digital industry. You got some kids to take care of and train them to. So welcome to the cube conversation here as part of the program. >>Yeah, thanks for having me excited to be here. >>So the house of the changing landscape of advertising really centers around the open to walled garden mindset of the web and the big power players. We know the big 34 tech players dominate the marketplace. So clearly in a major inflection point and we've seen this movie before Web mobile revolution, which was basically a reply platform NG of capabilities. But now we're in an error of re factoring the industry, not re platt forming a complete changing over of the value proposition. So a lot at stake here as this open web, open internet global internet evolved. What are your, what's your take on this, this industry proposals out there that are talking to this specific cookie issue? What does it mean? And what proposals are out there? >>Yeah, so, you know, I I really view the identity proposals and kind of to to kind of groups, two separate groups. So on one side you have what the walled gardens are doing and really that's being led by google. Right, so google um you know, introduce something called the privacy sandbox when they announced that they would be deprecating third party cookies uh as part of the privacy sandbox, they've had a number of proposals unfortunately, or you know, however you want to say they're all bird themed for some reason, I don't know why. Um but the one the bird theme proposal that they've chosen to move forward with is called flock, which stands for Federated learning of cohorts. And essentially what it all boils down to is google is moving forward with cohort level Learning and understanding of users in the future after 3rd party cookies, unlike what we've been accustomed to in this space, which is a user level understanding of people and what they're doing online for targeting tracking purposes. And so that's on one side of the equation, it's what google is doing with flock and privacy sandbox. Now On the other side is, you know, things like unified, I need to point or the work that 85 is doing around building new identity frameworks for the entire space, that actually can still get down to the user level. Right? And so again, unified I. d 2.0 comes to mind because it's the one that's probably got the most adoption in the space. It's an open source framework. So the idea is that it's free and pretty much publicly available to anybody that wants to use it and unified, I need to point out again is user level. So it's it's basically taking data that's authenticated data from users across various websites you know that are logging in and taking those authenticated users to create some kind of identity map. And so if you think about those two work streams right, you've got the walled gardens and or you know, google with flock on one side and then you've got unified I. D. Two point oh and other I. D. Frameworks for the open internet on the other side, you've got these two very differing type of approaches to identity in the future. Again on the google side it's cohort level, it's gonna be built into chrome. Um The idea is that you can pretty much do a lot of the things that we do with advertising today, but now you're just doing it at a group level so that you're protecting privacy whereas on the other side of the open internet you're still getting down to the user level. Um And that's pretty powerful. But the the issue there is scale, right? We know that a lot of people are not logged in on lots of websites. I think the stat that I saw is under five of all website traffic is authenticated. So really if you if you simplify things, you boil it all down, you have kind of these two very differing approaches. >>I guess the question it really comes down to what alternatives are out there for cookies, and which ones do you think will be more successful? Because I think, you know, the consensus is at least from my reporting in my view, is that the world agrees, Let's make it open, Which one is going to be better. >>Yeah, that's a great question, john So as I mentioned, right, we have we have to kind of work streams here, we've got the walled garden work work stream being led by google and their work around flock, and then we've got the open internet, right? Let's say unified I. D to kind of represents that. I personally don't believe that there is a right answer or an endgame here. I don't think that one of them wins over the other, frankly, I think that, you know, first of all, you have those two frameworks, neither of them are perfect, they're both flawed in their own ways. There are pros and cons to both of them. And so what we're starting to see now is you have other companies kind of coming in and building on top of both of them as kind of a hybrid solution. Right? So they're saying, hey, we use, you know, an open I. D. Framework in this way to get down to the user level and use that authenticated data and that's important. But we don't have all the scale. So now we go to google and we go to flock to kind of fill the scale. Oh and hey, by the way, we have some of our own special sauce, right? We have some of our own data, we have some of our own partnerships, we're gonna bring that in and layer it on top. Right? And so really where I think things are headed is the right answer, frankly, is not one or the other. It's a little mishmash of both. With a little extra something on top. I think that's, that's what we're starting to see out of a lot of companies in the space and I think that's frankly where we're headed. >>What do you think the industry will evolve to, in your opinion? Because I think this is gonna, you can't ignore the big guys on this, has these programmatic, you mentioned also the data is there. But what do you think the market will evolve to with this, with this conundrum? >>So, so I think john where we're headed? Um, you know, I think we're right now we're having this existential existential crisis, right? About identity in this industry, because our world is being turned upside down, all the mechanisms that we've used for years and years are being thrown out the window and we're being told that we're gonna have new mechanisms, right? So cookies are going away device IEDs are going away and now we got to come up with new things and so the world is being turned upside down and everything that you read about in the trades and you know, we're here talking about it, right? Like everyone's always talking about identity right now, where do I think this is going if I was to look into my crystal ball, you know, this is how I would kind of play this out. If you think about identity today, Right? Forget about all the changes. Just think about it now and maybe a few years before today, Identity for marketers in my opinion, has been a little bit of a checkbox activity. Right? It's been, hey, um, okay, uh, you know, ad tech company or media company, do you have an identity solution? Okay. Tell me a little bit more about it. Okay. Sounds good. That sounds good. Now can we move on and talk about my business and how are you going to drive meaningful outcomes or whatever for my business? And I believe the reason that is, is because identity is a little abstract, right? It's not something that you can actually get meaningful validation against. It's just something that, you know, Yes, you have it. Okay, great. Let's move on, type of thing. Right. And so that, that's, that's kind of where we've been now, all of a sudden the cookies are going away, the device IDs are going away. And so the world is turning upside down. We're in this crisis of how are we going to keep doing what we were doing for the last 10 years in the future. So everyone's talking about it and we're trying to re engineer right? The mechanisms now if I was to look into the crystal ball right two or three years from now where I think we're headed is not much is going to change. And what I mean by that john is um I think that marketers will still go to companies and say do you have an ID solution? Okay tell me more about it. Okay uh let me understand a little bit better. Okay you do it this way. Sounds good. Now the ways in which companies are going to do it will be different right now. It's flock and unified I. D. And this and that right. The ways the mechanisms will be a little bit different but the end state right? Like the actual way in which we operate as an industry and kind of like the view of the landscape, in my opinion will be very simple or very similar, right? Because marketers will still view it as a tell me you have an ID solution, Make me feel good about it. Help me check the box and let's move on and talk about my business and how you're going to solve for my needs. So I think that's where we're going. That is not by any means to discount this existential moment that we're in. This is a really important moment where we do have to talk about and figure out what we're gonna do in the future. My just my viewpoint is that the future will actually not look all that different than the present. >>And I'll say the user base is the audience. Their their data behind it helps create new experiences, machine learning and Ai are going to create those and we have the data. You have the sharing it or using it as we're finding shit. Gupta great insight dropping some nice gems here, Founder of You of Digital and also the Adjunct professor of Programmatic advertising at Levi School of Business and santa Clara University Professor. Thank you for coming, dropping the gems here and insight. Thank you. >>Thanks a lot for having me john really appreciate it. >>Thanks for watching the cooking 100 is the cube host Jon ferrier. Me. Thanks for watching. Yeah. Yeah.

(upbeat electronic music) >> Welcome back to the Quantcast Industry Summit on the demise of third-party cookies. The Cookie Conundrum, A Recipe for Success. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. The changing landscape of advertising is here, and Shiv Gupta, founder of U of Digital is joining us. Shiv, thanks for coming on this segment. I really appreciate it. I know you're busy. You've got two young kids, as well as providing education to the digital industry. You got some kids to take care of and train them too. So, welcome to the cube conversation here as part of the program. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. Excited to be here. >> So, the house of the changing landscape of advertising really centers around the open to walled garden mindset of the web and the big power players. We know the big three, four tech players dominate the marketplace. So, clearly in a major inflection point. And you know, we've seen this movie before. Web, now mobile revolution. Which was basically a re-platforming of capabilities, but now we're in an era of refactoring the industry, not replatforming. A complete changing over of the value proposition. So, a lot at stake here as this open web, open internet-- global internet, evolves. What are your, what's your take on this? There's industry proposals out there that are talking to this specific cookie issue? What does it mean and what proposals are out there? >> Yeah, so, you know, I really view the identity proposals in kind of two kinds of groups. Two separate groups. So, on one side you have what the walled gardens are doing. And really that's being led by Google, right? So, Google introduced something called the Privacy Sandbox when they announced that they would be deprecating third-party cookies. And as part of the Privacy Sandbox, they've had a number of proposals. Unfortunately, or you know, however you want to say, they're all bird-themed, for some reason I don't know why. But the one, the bird-themed proposal that they've chosen to move forward with is called FLOC, which stands for Federated Learning of Cohorts. And, essentially what it all boils down to is Google is moving forward with cohort level learning and understanding of users in the future after third-party cookies. Unlike what we've been accustomed to in this space, which is a user level understanding of people and what they're doing online for targeting and tracking purposes. And so, that's on one side of the equation. It's what Google is doing with FLOC and Privacy Sandbox. Now, on the other side is, you know, things like unified ID 2.0 or the work that ID5 is doing around building new identity frameworks for the entire space that actually can still get down to the user level. Right? And so again, Unified ID 2.0 comes to mind because it's the one that's probably gotten the most adoption in the space. It's an open source framework. So the idea is that it's free and pretty much publicly available to anybody that wants to use it. And Unified ID 2.0 again is user level. So, it's basically taking data that's authenticated data from users across various websites that are logging in and taking those authenticated users to create some kind of identity map. And so, if you think about those two work streams, right? You've got the walled gardens and or, you know, Google with FLOC on one side. And then you've got Unified ID 2.0 and other ID frameworks for the open internet on the other side. You've got these two very different type of approaches to identity in the future. Again, on the Google side it's cohort level, it's going to be built into Chrome. The idea is that you can pretty much do a lot of the things that we do with advertising today but now you're just doing them at a group level so that you're protecting privacy. Whereas, on the other side with the open internet you're still getting down to the user level and that's pretty powerful but the the issue there is scale, right? We know that a lot of people are not logged in on lots of websites. I think the stat that I saw was under 5% of all website traffic is authenticated. So, really if you simplify things and you boil it all down you have kind of these two very differing approaches. >> So we have a publishing business. We'd love to have people authenticate and get that closed loop journalism thing going on. But, if businesses wannna get this level too, they can have concerns. So, I guess my question is, what's the trade-off? Because you have power in Google and the huge data set that they command. They command a lot of leverage with that. And again, centralized. And you've got open. But it seems to me that the world is moving more towards decentralization, not centralization. Do you agree with that? And does that have any impact to this? Because, you want to harness the data, so it rewards people with the most data. In this case, the powerful. But the world's going decentralized, where there needs to be a new way for data to be accessed and leveraged by anyone. >> Yeah. John, it's a great point. And I think we're at kind of a crossroads, right? To answer that question. You know, I think what we're hearing a lot right now in the space from publishers, like yourself, is that there's an interesting opportunity right now for them, right? To actually have some more control and say about the future of their own business. If you think about the last, let's say 10, 15, 20 years in advertising in digital, right? Programmatic has really become kind of the primary mechanism for revenue for a lot of these publishers. Right? And so programmatic is a super important part of their business. But, with everything that's happening here with identity now, a lot of these publishers are kind of taking a look in the mirror and thinking about, "Okay, we have an interesting opportunity here to make a decision." And, the decision, the trade off to your question is, Do we continue? Right? Do we put up the login wall? The registration wall, right? Collect that data. And then what do we do with that data? Right? So it's kind of a two-fold process here. Two-step process that they have to make a decision on. First of all, do we hamper the user experience by putting up a registration wall? Will we lose consumers if we do that? Do we create some friction in the process that's not necessary. And if we do, right? We're taking a hit already potentially, to what end? Right? And, I think that's the really interesting question, is to what end? But, what we're starting to see is publishers are saying you know what? Programmatic revenue is super important to us. And so, you know, path one might be: Hey, let's give them this data. Right? Let's give them the authenticated information, the data that we collect. Because if we do, we can continue on with the path that our business has been on. Right? Which is generating this awesome kind of programmatic revenue. Now, alternatively we're starting to see some publishers say hold up. If we say no, if we say: "Hey, we're going to authenticate but we're not going to share the data." Right? Some of the publishers actually view programmatic as almost like the programmatic industrial complex, right? That's almost taken a piece of their business in the last 10, 15, 20 years. Whereas, back in the day, they were selling directly and making all the revenue for themselves, right? And so, some of these publishers are starting to say: You know what? We're not going to play nice with FLOC and Unified ID. And we're going to kind of take some of this back. And what that means in the short term for them, is maybe sacrificing programmatic revenue. But their bet is long-term, maybe some of that money will come back to them direct. Now, that'll probably only be the premium pubs, right? The ones that really feel like they have that leverage and that runway to do something like that. And even so, you know, I'm of the opinion that if certain publishers kind of peel away and do that, that's probably not great for the bigger picture. Even though it might be good for their business. But, you know, let's see what happens. To each business their own >> Yeah. I think the trade-off of monetization and user experience has always been there. Now, more than ever, people want truth. They want trust. And I think the trust factor is huge. And if you're a publisher, you wannna have your audience be instrumental. And I think the big players have sucked out of the audience from the publishers for years. And that's well-documented. People talk about that all the time. I guess the question, it really comes down to is, what alternatives are out there for cookies and which ones do you think will be more successful? Because, I think the consensus is, at least from my reporting and my view, is that the world agrees. Let's make it open. Which one's going to be better? >> Yeah. That's a great question, John. So as I mentioned, right? We have two kinds of work streams here. We've got the walled garden work stream being led by Google and their work around FLOC. And then we've got the open internet, right? Let's say Unified ID 2.0 kind of represents that. I personally don't believe that there is a right answer or an end game here. I don't think that one of them wins over the other, frankly. I think that, you know, first of all, you have those two frameworks. Neither of them are perfect. They're both flawed in their own ways. There are pros and cons to both of them. And so what we're starting to see now, is you have other companies kind of coming in and building on top of both of them as kind of a hybrid solution, right? So they're saying, hey we use, you know, an open ID framework in this way to get down to the user level and use that authenticated data. And that's important, but we don't have all the scale. So now we go to a Google and we go to FLOC to kind of fill the scale. Oh and hey, by the way, we have some of our own special sauce. Right? We have some of our own data. We have some of our own partnerships. We're going to bring that in and layer it on top, right? And so, really where I think things are headed is the right answer, frankly, is not one or the other. It's a little mishmash of both with a little extra, you know, something on top. I think that's what we're starting to see out of a lot of companies in the space. And I think that's frankly, where we're headed. >> What do you think the industry will evolve to, in your opinion? Because, I think this is going to be- You can't ignore the big guys on this Obviously the programmatic you mentioned, also the data's there. But, what do you think the market will evolve to with this conundrum? >> So, I think John, where we're headed, you know, I think right now we're having this existential crisis, right? About identity in this industry. Because our world is being turned upside down. All the mechanisms that we've used for years and years are being thrown out the window and we're being told, "Hey, we're going to have new mechanisms." Right? So cookies are going away. Device IDs are going away. And now we've got to come up with new things. And so, the world is being turned upside down and everything that you read about in the trades and you know, we're here talking about it, right? Everyone's always talking about identity, right? Now, where do I think this is going? If I was to look into my crystal ball, you know, this is how I would kind of play this out. If you think about identity today, right? Forget about all the changes. Just think about it now and maybe a few years before today. Identity, for marketers, in my opinion, has been a little bit of a checkbox activity, right? It's been, Hey, Okay. You know, ad tech company or media company. Do you have an identity solution? Okay. Tell me a little bit more about it. Okay. Sounds good. That sounds good. Now, can we move on and talk about my business and how are you going to drive meaningful outcomes or whatever for my business. And I believe the reason that is, is because identity is a little abstract, right? It's not something that you can actually get meaningful validation against. It's just something that, you know? Yes, you have it. Okay, great. Let's move on, type of thing, right? And so, that's kind of where we've been. Now, all of a sudden, the cookies are going away. The device IDs are going away. And so the world is turning upside down. We're in this crisis of: how are we going to keep doing what we were doing for the last 10 years in the future? So, everyone's talking about it and we're tryna re-engineer the mechanisms. Now, if I was to look into the crystal ball, right? Two, three years from now, where I think we're headed is, not much is going to change. And what I mean by that, John is, I think that marketers will still go to companies and say, "Do you have an ID solution? Okay, tell me more about it. Okay. Let me understand a little bit better. Okay. You do it this way. Sounds good." Now, the ways in which companies are going to do it will be different. Right now it's FLOC and Unified ID and this and that, right? The ways, the mechanisms will be a little bit different. But, the end state. Right? The actual way in which we operate as an industry and the view of the landscape in my opinion, will be very simple or very similar, right? Because marketers will still view it as a, tell me you have an ID solution, make me feel good about it, help me check the box and let's move on and talk about my business and how you're going to solve for my needs. So, I think that's where we're going. That is not by any means to discount this existential moment that we're in. This is a really important moment, where we do have to talk about and figure out what we're going to do in the future. My viewpoint is that the future will actually not look all that different than the present. >> And then I'll say the user base is the audience, their data behind it helps create new experiences, machine learning and AI are going to create those. And if you have the data, you're either sharing it or using it. That's what we're finding. Shiv Gupta, great insights. Dropping some nice gems here. Founder of U of Digital and also the adjunct professor of programmatic advertising at Leavey School of business in Santa Clara University. Professor, thank you for coming and dropping the gems here and insight. Thank you. >> Thanks a lot for having me, John. Really appreciate it. >> Thanks for watching The Cookie Conundrum This is theCUBE host, John Furrier, me. Thanks for watching. (uplifting electronic music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> As you know by now, Jeff Bezos, CEO of Amazon, is stepping aside from his CEO role and AWS CEO, Andy Jassy, is being promoted to head all of Amazon. Bezos, of course, is going to remain executive chairman. Now, 15 years ago, next month, Amazon launched it's simple storage service, which was the first modern cloud offering. And the man who wrote the business plan for AWS, was Andy Jassy, and he's navigated the meteoric rise and disruption that has seen AWS grow into a $45 billion company that draws off the vast majority of Amazon's operating profits. No one in the media has covered Jassy more intimately and closely than John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE. And John joins us today to help us understand on theCUBE this move and what we can expect from Jassy in his new role, and importantly what it means for AWS. John, thanks for taking the time to speak with us. >> Hey, great day. Great to see you as always, we've done a lot of interviews together over the years and we're on our 11th year with theCUBE and SiliconANGLE. But I got to be excited too, that we're simulcasters on Clubhouse, which is kind of cool. Love Clubhouse but not since the, in December. It's awesome. It's like Cube radio. It's like, so this is a Cube talk. So we opened up a Clubhouse room while we're filming this. We'll do more live hits in studio and syndicate the Clubhouse and then take questions after. This is a huge digital transformation moment. I'm part of the digital transformation club on Clubhouse which has almost 5,000 followers at the moment and also has like 500 members. So if you're not on Clubhouse, yet, if you have an iPhone go check it out and join the digital transformation club. Android users you'll have to wait until that app is done but it's really a great club. And Jeremiah Owyang is also doing a lot of stuff on digital transformation. >> Or you can just buy an iPhone and get in. >> Yeah, that's what people are doing. I can see all the influences are on there but to me, the digital transformation, it's always been kind of a cliche, the consumerization of IT, information technology. This has been the boring world of the enterprise over the past, 20 years ago. Enterprise right now is super hot because there's no distinction between enterprise and society. And that's clearly the, because of the rise of cloud computing and the rise of Amazon Web Services which was a side project at AWS, at Amazon that Andy Jassy did. And it wasn't really pleasant at the beginning. It was failed. It failed a lot and it wasn't as successful as people thought in the early days. And I have a lot of stories with Andy that he told me a lot of the inside baseball and we'll share that here today. But we started covering Amazon since the beginning. I was as an entrepreneur. I used it when it came out and a huge fan of them as a company because they just got a superior product and they have always had been but it was very misunderstood from the beginning. And now everyone's calling it the most important thing. And Andy now is becoming Andy Jassy, the most important executive in the world. >> So let's get it to the, I mean, look at, you said to me over holidays, you thought this might have something like this could happen. And you said, Jassy is probably in line to get this. So, tell us, what can you tell us about Jassy? Why is he qualified for this job? What do you think he brings to the table? >> Well, the thing that I know about Amazon everyone's been following the Amazon news is, Jeff Bezos has a lot of personal turmoil. They had his marriage fail. They had some issues with the smear campaigns and all this stuff going on, the run-ins with Donald Trump, he bought the Washington post. He's got a lot of other endeavors outside of Amazon cause he's the second richest man in the world competing with Elon Musk at Space X versus Blue Origin. So the guy's a billionaire. So Amazon is his baby and he's been running it as best he could. He's got an executive team committee they called the S team. He's been grooming people in the company and that's just been his mode. And the rise of AWS and the business performance that we've been documenting on SiliconANGLE and theCUBE, it's just been absolutely changing the game on Amazon as a company. So clearly Amazon Web Services become a driving force of the new Amazon that's emerging. And obviously they've got all their retail business and they got the gaming challenges and they got the studios and the other diversified stuff. So Jassy is just, he's just one of those guys. He's just been an Amazonian from day one. He came out of Harvard business school, drove across the country, very similar story to Jeff Bezos. He did that in 1997 and him and Jeff had been collaborating and Jeff tapped him to be his shadow, they call it, which is basically technical assistance and an heir apparent and groomed him. And then that's how it is. Jassy is not a climber as they call it in corporate America. He's not a person who is looking for a political gain. He's not a territory taker, but he's a micromanager. He loves details and he likes to create customer value. And that's his focus. So he's not a grandstander. In fact, he's been very low profile. Early days when we started meeting with him, he wouldn't meet with press regularly because they weren't writing the right stories. And everyone is, he didn't know he was misunderstood. So that's classic Amazon. >> So, he gave us the time, I think it was 2014 or 15 and he told us a story back then, John, you might want to share it as to how AWS got started. Why, what was the main spring Amazon's tech wasn't working that great? And Bezos said to Jassy, going to go figure out why and maybe explain how AWS was born. >> Yeah, we had, in fact, we were the first ones to get access to do his first public profile. If you go to the Google and search Andy Jassy, the trillion dollar baby, we had a post, we put out the story of AWS, Andy Jassy's trillion dollar baby. This was in early, this was January 2015, six years ago. And, we back then, we posited that this would be a trillion dollar total addressable market. Okay, people thought we were crazy but we wrote a story and he gave us a very intimate access. We did a full drill down on him and the person, the story of Amazon and that laid out essentially the beginning of the rise of AWS and Andy Jassy. So that's a good story to check out but really the key here is, is that he's always been relentless and competitive on creating value in what they call raising the bar outside Amazon. That's a term that they use. They also have another leadership principle called working backwards, which is like, go to the customer and work backwards from the customer in a very Steve Job's kind of way. And that's been kind of Jobs mentality as well at Apple that made them successful work backwards from the customer and make things easier. And that was Apple. Amazon, their philosophy was work backwards from the customer and Jassy specifically would say it many times and eliminate the undifferentiated heavy lifting. That was a key principle of what they were doing. So that was a key thesis of their entire business model. And that's the Amazonian way. Faster, cheaper, ship it faster, make it less expensive and higher value. While when you apply the Amazon shipping concept to cloud computing, it was completely disrupted. They were shipping code and services faster and that became their innovation strategy. More announcements every year, they out announced their competition by huge margin. They introduced new services faster and they're less expensive some say, but in the aggregate, they make more money but that's kind of a key thing. >> Well, when you, I was been listening to the TV today and there was a debate on whether or not, this support tends that they'll actually split the company into two. To me, I think it's just the opposite. I think it's less likely. I mean, if you think about Amazon getting into grocery or healthcare, eventually financial services or other industries and the IOT opportunity to me, what they do, John, is they bring in together the cloud, data and AI and they go attack these new industries. I would think Jassy of all people would want to keep this thing together now whether or not the government allows them to do that. But what are your thoughts? I mean, you've asked Andy this before in your personal interviews about splitting the company. What are your thoughts? >> Well, Jon Fortt at CNBC always asked the same question every year. It's almost like the standard question. I kind of laugh and I ask it now too because I liked Jon Fortt. I think he's an awesome dude. And I'll, it's just a tongue in cheek, Jassy. He won't answer the question. Amazon, Bezos and Jassy have one thing in common. They're really good at not answering questions. So if you ask the same question. They'll just say, nothing's ever, never say never, that's his classic answer to everything. Never say never. And he's always said that to you. (chuckles) Some say, he's, flip-flopped on things but he's really customer driven. For example, he said at one point, no one should ever build a data center. Okay, that was a principle. And then they come out and they have now a hybrid strategy. And I called them out on that and said, hey, what, are you flip-flopping? You said at some point, no one should have a data center. He's like, well, we looked at it differently and what we meant was is that, it should all be cloud native. Okay. So that's kind of revision, but he's cool with that. He says, hey, we'll revise based on what customers are doing. VMware working with Amazon that no one ever thought that would happen. Okay. So, VMware has some techies, Raghu, for instance, over there, super top notch. He worked with Jassy, directly in his team Sanjay Poonen when they went to business school together, they cut a deal. And now Amazon essentially saved VMware, in my opinion. And Pat Gelsinger drove that deal. Now, Pat Gelsinger, CEO, Intel, and Pat told me that directly in candid conversation off theCUBE, he said, hey, we have to make a decision either we're going to be in cloud or we're not going to be in cloud, we will partner. And I'll see, he was Intel. He understood the Intel inside mentality. So that's good for VMware. So Jassy does these kinds of deals. He's not afraid he's got a good stomach for business and a relentless competitor. >> So, how do you think as you mentioned Jassy is a micromanager. He gets deep into the technology. Anybody who's seen his two hour, three hour keynotes. No, he has a really fine grasp of the technology across the entire stack. How do you think John, he will approach things like antitrust, the big tech lash of the unionization of the workforce at Amazon? How do you think Jassy will approach that? >> Well, I think one of the things that emerges Jassy, first of all, he's a huge sports fan. And many people don't know that but he's also progressive person. He's very progressive politically. He's been on the record and off the record saying things like, obviously, literacy has been big on, he's been on basically unrepresented minorities, pushing for that, and certainly cloud computing in tech, women in tech, he's been a big proponent. He's been a big supporter of Teresa Carlson. Who's been rising star at Amazon. People don't know who Teresa Carlson is and they should check out her. She's become one of the biggest leaders inside Amazon she's turned around public sector from the beginning. She ran that business, she's a global star. He's been a great leader and he's been getting, forget he's a micromanager, he's on top of the details. I mean, the word is, and nothing gets approved without Andy, Andy seeing it. But he's been progressive. He's been an Amazon original as they call it internally. He's progressive, he's got the business acumen but he's perfect for this pragmatic conversation that needs to happen. And again, because he's so technically strong having a CEO that's that proficient is going to give Amazon an advantage when they have to go in and change how DC works, for instance, or how the government geopolitical landscape works, because Amazon is now a global company with regions all over the place. So, I think he's pragmatic, he's open to listening and changing. I think that's a huge quality >> Well, when you think of this, just to set the context here for those who may not know, I mean, Amazon started as I said back in 2006 in March with simple storage service that later that year they announced EC2 which is their compute platform. And that was the majority of their business, is still a very large portion of their business but Amazon, our estimates are that in 2020, Amazon did 45 billion, 45.4 billion in revenue. That's actually an Amazon reported number. And just to give you a context, Azure about 26 billion GCP, Google about 6 billion. So you're talking about an industry that Amazon created. That's now $78 billion and Amazon at 45 billion. John they're growing at 30% annually. So it's just a massive growth engine. And then another story Jassy told us, is they, he and Jeff and the team talked early on about whether or not they should just sort of do an experiment, do a little POC, dip their toe in and they decided to go for it. Let's go big or go home as Michael Dell has said to us many times, I mean, pretty astounding. >> Yeah. One of the things about Jassy that people should know about, I think there's some compelling relative to the newest ascension to the CEO of Amazon, is that he's not afraid to do new things. For instance, I'll give you an example. The Amazon Web Services re-invent their annual conference grew to being thousands and thousands of people. And they would have a traditional after party. They called a replay, they'd have a band like every tech conference and their conference became so big that essentially, it was like setting up a live concert. So they were spending millions of dollars to set up basically a one night concert and they'd bring in great, great artists. So he said, hey, what's been all this cash? Why don't we just have a festival? So they did a thing called Intersect. They got LA involved from creatives and they basically built a weekend festival in the back end of re-invent. This was when real life was, before COVID and they turned into an opportunity because that's the way they think. They like to look at the resources, hey, we're already all in on this, why don't we just keep it for the weekend and charge some tickets and have a good time. He's not afraid to take chances on the product side. He'll go in and take a chance on a new market. That comes from directly from Bezos. They try stuff. They don't mind failing but they put a tight leash on measurement. They work backwards from the customer and they are not afraid to take chances. So, that's going to board well for him as he tries to figure out how Amazon navigates the contention on the political side when they get challenged for their dominance. And I think he's going to have to apply that pragmatic experimentation to new business models. >> So John I want you to take on AWS. I mean, despite the large numbers, I talked about 30% growth, Azure is growing at over 50% a year, GCP at 83%. So despite the large numbers and big growth the growth rates are slowing. Everybody knows that, we've reported it extensively. So the incoming CEO of Amazon Web Services has a TAM expansion challenge. And at some point they've got to decide, okay, how do we keep this growth engine? So, do you have any thoughts as to who might be the next CEO and what are some of their challenges as you see it? >> Well, Amazon is a real product centric company. So it's going to be very interesting to see who they go with here. Obviously they've been grooming a lot of people. There's been some turnover. You had some really strong executives recently leave, Jeff Wilkes, who was the CEO of the retail business. He retired a couple of months ago, formerly announced I think recently, he was probably in line. You had Mike Clayville, is now the chief revenue officer of Stripe. He ran all commercial business, Teresa Carlson stepped up to his role as well as running public sector. Again, she got more power. You have Matt Garman who ran the EC2 business, Stanford grad, great guy, super strong on the product side. He's now running all commercial sales and marketing. And he's also on the, was on Bezos' S team, that's the executive kind of team. Peter DeSantis is also on that S team. He runs all infrastructure. He took over for James Hamilton, who was the genius behind all the data center work that they've done and all the chip design stuff that they've innovated on. So there's so much technical innovation going on. I think you still going to see a leadership probably come from, I would say Matt Garman, in my opinion is the lead dog at this point, he's the lead horse. You could have an outside person come in depending upon how, who might be available. And that would probably come from an Andy Jassy network because he's a real fierce competitor but he's also a loyalist and he likes trust. So if someone comes in from the outside, it's going to be someone maybe he trusts. And then the other wildcards are like Teresa Carlson. Like I said, she is a great woman in tech who's done amazing work. I've profiled her many times. We've interviewed her many times. She took that public sector business with Amazon and changed the game completely. Outside the Jedi contract, she was in competitive for, had the big Trump showdown with the Jedi, with the department of defense. Had the CIA cloud. Amazon set the standard on public sector and that's directly the result of Teresa Carlson. But she's in the field, she's not a product person, she's kind of running that group. So Amazon has that product field kind of structure. So we'll see how they handle that. But those are the top three I think are going to be in line. >> So the obvious question that people always ask and it is a big change like this is, okay, in this case, what is Jassy going to bring in? And what's going to change? Maybe the flip side question is somewhat more interesting. What's not going to change in your view? Jassy has been there since nearly the beginning. What are some of the fundamental tenets that he's, that are fossilized, that won't change, do you think? >> I think he's, I think what's not going to change is Amazon, is going to continue to grow and develop their platform business and enable more SaaS players. That's a little bit different than what Microsoft's doing. They're more SaaS oriented, Office 365 is becoming their biggest application in terms of revenue on Microsoft side. So Amazon is going to still have to compete and enable more ecosystem partners. I think what's not going to change is that Bezos is still going to be in charge because executive chairman is just a code word for "not an active CEO." So in the corporate governance world when you have an executive chairman, that's essentially the person still in charge. And so he'll be in charge, will still be the boss of Andy Jassy and Jassy will be running all of Amazon. So I think that's going to be a little bit the same, but Jassy is going to be more in charge. I think you'll see a team change over, whether you're going to see some new management come in, Andy's management team will expand, I think Amazon will stay the same, Amazon Web Services. >> So John, last night, I was just making some notes about notable transitions in the history of the tech business, Gerstner to Palmisano, Gates to Ballmer, and then Ballmer to Nadella. One that you were close to, David Packard to John Young and then John Young to Lew Platt at the old company. Ellison to Safra and Mark, Jobs to Cook. We talked about Larry Page to Sundar Pichai. So how do you see this? And you've talked to, I remember when you interviewed John Chambers, he said, there is no rite of passage, East coast mini-computer companies, Edson de Castro, Ken Olsen, An Wang. These were executives who wouldn't let go. So it's of interesting to juxtapose that with the modern day executive. How do you see this fitting in to some of those epic transitions that I just mentioned? >> I think a lot of people are surprised at Jeff Bezos', even stepping down. I think he's just been such the face of Amazon. I think some of the poll numbers that people are doing on Twitter, people don't think it's going to make a big difference because he's kind of been that, leader hand on the wheel, but it's been its own ship now, kind of. And so depending on who's at the helm, it will be different. I think the Amazon choice of Andy wasn't obvious. And I think a lot of people were asking the question who was Andy Jassy and that's why we're doing this. And we're going to be doing more features on the Andy Jassy. We got a tons, tons of content that we've we've had shipped, original content with them. We'll share more of those key soundbites and who he is. I think a lot of people scratching their head like, why Andy Jassy? It's not obvious to the outsiders who don't know cloud computing. If you're in the competing business, in the digital transformation side, everyone knows about Amazon Web Services. Has been the most successful company, in my opinion, since I could remember at many levels just the way they've completely dominated the business and how they change others to be dominant. So, I mean, they've made Microsoft change, it made Google change and even then he's a leader that accepts conversations. Other companies, their CEOs hide behind their PR wall and they don't talk to people. They won't come on Clubhouse. They won't talk to the press. They hide behind their PR and they feed them, the media. Jassy is not afraid to talk to reporters. He's not afraid to talk to people, but he doesn't like people who don't know what they're talking about. So he doesn't suffer fools. So, you got to have your shit together to talk to Jassy. That's really the way it is. And that's, and he'll give you mind share, like he'll answer any question except for the ones that are too tough for him to answer. Like, are you, is facial recognition bad or good? Are you going to spin out AWS? I mean these are the hard questions and he's got a great team. He's got Jay Carney, former Obama press secretary working for him. He's been a great leader. So I'm really bullish on, is a good choice. >> We're going to jump into the Clubhouse here and open it up shortly. John, the last question for you is competition. Amazon as a company and even Jassy specifically I always talk about how they don't really focus on the competition, they focus on the customer but we know that just observing these folks Bezos is very competitive individual. Jassy, I mean, you know him better than I, very competitive individual. So, and he's, Jassy has been known to call out Oracle. Of course it was in response to Larry Ellison's jabs at Amazon regarding database. But, but how do you see that? Do you see that changing at all? I mean, will Amazon get more publicly competitive or they stick to their knitting, you think? >> You know this is going to sound kind of a weird analogy. And I know there's a lot of hero worshiping on Elon Musk but Elon Musk and Andy Jassy have a lot of similarities in the sense of their brilliance. They got both a brilliant people, different kinds of backgrounds. Obviously, they're running different things. They both are builders, right? If you were listening to Elon Musk on Clubhouse the other night, what was really striking was not only the magic of how it was all orchestrated and what he did and how he interviewed Robin Hood. He basically is about building stuff. And he was asked questions like, what advice do you give startups? He's like, if you need advice you shouldn't be doing startups. That's the kind of mentality that Jassy has, which is, it's not easy. It's not for the faint of heart, but Elon Musk is a builder. Jassy builds, he likes to build stuff, right? And so you look at all the things that he's done with AWS, it's been about enabling people to be successful with the tools that they need, adding more services, creating things that are lower price point. If you're an entrepreneur and you're over the age of 30, you know about AWS because you know what, it's cheaper to start a business on Amazon Web Services than buying servers and everyone knows that. If you're under the age of 25, you might not know 50 grand to a hundred thousand just to start something. Today you get your credit card down, you're up and running and you can get Clubhouses up and running all day long. So the next Clubhouse will be on Amazon or a cloud technology. And that's because of Andy Jassy right? So this is a significant executive and he continue, will bring that mindset of building. So, I think the digital transformation, we're in the digital engine club, we're going to see a complete revolution of a new generation. And I think having a new leader like Andy Jassy will enable in my opinion next generation talent, whether that's media and technology convergence, media technology and art convergence and the fact that he digs music, he digs sports, he digs tech, he digs media, it's going to be very interesting to see, I think he's well-poised to be, and he's soft-spoken, he doesn't want the glamorous press. He doesn't want the puff pieces. He just wants to do what he does and he puts his game do the talking. >> Talking about advice at startups. Just a quick aside. I remember, John, you and I when we were interviewing Scott McNealy former CEO of Sun Microsystems. And you asked him advice for startups. He said, move out of California. It's kind of tongue in cheek. I heard this morning that there's a proposal to tax the multi-billionaires of 1% annually not just the one-time tax. And so Jeff Bezos of course, has a ranch in Texas, no tax there, but places all over. >> You see I don't know. >> But I don't see Amazon leaving Seattle anytime soon, nor Jassy. >> Jeremiah Owyang did a Clubhouse on California. And the basic sentiment is that, it's California is not going away. I mean, come on. People got to just get real. I think it's a fad. Yeah. This has benefits with remote working, no doubt, but people will stay here in California, the network affects beautiful. I think Silicon Valley is going to continue to be relevant. It's just going to syndicate differently. And I think other hubs like Seattle and around the world will be integrated through remote work and I think it's going to be much more of a democratizing effect, not a win lose. So that to me is a huge shift. And look at Amazon, look at Amazon and Microsoft. It's the cloud cities, so people call Seattle. You've got Google down here and they're making waves but still, all good stuff. >> Well John, thanks so much. Let's let's wrap and let's jump into the Clubhouse and hear from others. Thanks so much for coming on, back on theCUBE. And many times we, you and I've done this really. It was a pleasure having you. Thanks for your perspectives. And thank you for watching everybody, this is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We'll see you next time. (soft ambient music)

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel and AWS. >>Welcome to the cubes coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 I'm Lisa Martin exciting conversation coming up next. We have Maureen Lonergan with us, the director of worldwide training and certification from AWS and Jared gains customer support analysts for IDB. S welcome to both of you. Thank you. Thanks for having us. >>Thank you. I appreciate being here. >>Likewise. So, you know, we're going to be talking about training and certification programs and skilling. And right now couldn't be more of an important time to talk about that. You know, the global health and economic crisis continues to loom over our heads, but cloud computing and the industry is continuing to grow. So there's demand for these skills. Maureen, I want to start with you to just kick us off with an overview of what the AWS restart program is. And then we'll hear from Jared about his experience. >> And so I thought I'd start off by saying, you know, today, uh, Accenture released, um, a study, uh, that said that connecting individuals to opportunities to learn. Um, we can create pathways and jobs with more opportunity, higher wages, accelerated growth and less vulnerability and sudden disruptions like COVID. Um, in fact, today we announced our commitment to help 29 million people grow their technical skills with free cloud computing and training. >>Uh, by 2025, one of those programs is, is restart and, uh, restart is, uh, uh, skills development and, and job training program that prepares learners, uh, for careers in the cloud. Um, we want to build local talent by providing AWS cloud skills and job opportunities to unemployed. You know, we work with nonprofits in the local communities and government organizations to deliver a learning experience, uh, and provide a pathway to earning an AWS certification and support the participants, um, as they launch their career career jobs by providing them training and, and matching them with company, uh, you know, giving them the opportunity to interview with companies. Um, and, and Jared's one of our graduates of that program. So, >> excellent. Look, Jared, welcome to the program. Talk to us about, you know, your background, what led you to join the AWS restart program? And when was that? >>Um, so I started the program in may and before COVID I was working in fitness. I was on my way to open my own studio and then COVID happened and kind of swept the rug from under my feet. So trying to recreate a career out of almost nothing. Now, since everything was in quarantine, I was referred to preschoolers, which was a program that hosted the restart program, where I learned Python skills, Linux administration skills, the architecture and infrastructure of AWS. It gave me a lot of tools to kind of grow a career in the cloud. >>And, and so you were in fitness before, did you have any tech training, any tech background experience >>Outside of the few online tools that I used? Uh, I always tell people the most tech experience I had was upgrading my iPhone. >>Wow. So this is a program Maureen, that anybody can enter. You talked about the number of 29 million. So, so Jared, I can imagine when you found this program, as you said in the beginning with fitness studios still shut down, who knows what could have happened, amazing opportunities that it provided you talk to us about. If we think back it's only been what eight or so months where you are now, you mentioned some of the certifications that you have a talk to us about how that's landed you and your current career. >>So during the program, I was matched up with the company and able to interview with them. And I was able to land a role as a customer support analyst, where I troubleshoot software support issues. >>So, so you go way beyond no upgrading your iPhone. I bet your friends are all going to be coming to you for fix those, this isn't working, right. You're going to have to be that tech support for all your >>It guy. Now >>You are. That's awesome. So talk to me about some of the things that you would recommend Jared to your peers and folks, especially if you're saying, you know, all, all I was good at before tech wise, just upgrading my phone. That really, I think dispels a lot of the, the concerns that folks might have. I don't have a tech background. I don't have a tech degree, your proof, you don't need one and you know, Python now, I don't even know that. >>Um, so what I always like to tell everyone is empty your cup and disarm the ego. Um, you know, starting something new when you're pivoting into a new career, it's going to require some changes. It's going to have a lot of challenges. So when you come to it with an open mind and are willing to kind of grind it out, um, it it's worth it in the end. So the results speak for themselves. >>Well, you have the right mindset. I think that is huge. It was a big advantage that you probably had going in, but that's such great advice for anyone. I think maybe one of the, I call them COVID catalysts. And this is one of them, some of the things that are coming out of this worrying that, that Jared and his peers are really being able to up-skill re-skill learn new skills, but to Jared's point, you got to have that open mind. So Marina, talk to me a little bit more, you mentioned 29 million folks being impacted with this. I'm sure there are a lot of folks like Jared who had no tech background and are now opening up because of the pandemic, uh, careers and opportunities that they never would've thought of. Yeah. I mean, research one of several programs that we'll be training 29 million people for free, but, um, I think for a restart in particular, it really is. >>And Jared's a great example of this is, is having a desire to dig in. You know, we had a conversation the other day and he was saying what an incredible opportunity. And, and if you have an open mind and to learn and be curious, kind of mentality, you w you can be successful in this program. And he's a great example of that. And, you know, this program has never been more important than, than during these times. And, and Jared's actually a graduate of the first virtual program because we actually deliver this, you know, in countries all over the world. Um, but we had to pivot quickly much like all of our other programs into a virtual environment. So, you know, even with those challenges, working remotely with the, you know, he has cohort, um, he was still able to get through the training and get, um, you know, get, get a certification and then hired by an employer. >>So it's, it's just, it's a credit to him and all the hard work he put into it. Exactly. And I can tell he's a disciplined guy, and that's one of the things that I think all of us have struggled with during the last nine months is having that discipline and motivation. It's everything is just completely it's, it's the upside down from stranger things. Right? Your talk to me a little bit about kind of specifically some of the things that when you think of the word restart, and you think of maybe where you were a year ago, this has really been an actual restart for you. Yeah. I'm sure fitness will get back hope to what it was a, you have now even more opportunities as a result of this crisis. >>Yeah. So I was able to really grow and become something more than myself because, because COVID in quarantine presented so many challenges and you kind of had to adapt quickly. It allowed me to recognize a lot of the transferable skills that I had other places and brought them and bringing them into the program. So that restart name fits perfect for the opportunity. And it gives people, you can literally become competitive in a new industry. Um, you know, within a few short months, >>I think wasn't doing it. Oh, go ahead, Maureen. I was just gonna say one of the other interesting things is that he has a son at home that he's homeschooling. So not only did COVID impact his business, but his family and his, um, you know, having to learn and, uh, and, and home, you know, online school help to online school, his son is also a credit, his, his character and his drive. Oh, absolutely. I can't imagine how challenging that is to do not just one do a regular job that you've been doing for a long time. We'll also having kids at home that you're having to help, but you are in the middle of a, a pretty big shift, the online talk to me about, I imagine maybe you were even inspiring to your son or vice versa in terms of having the dedication to show up online because there's nobody, you know, making sure that you're actually in a physical location. Right. Jared, >>Um, yeah, so there, you know, there, there, there was some advantages and disadvantages to learning in a virtual. Um, but having my son there, you know, we kinda pulled on each other and push each other, like, Hey, like, are you on break? What are you doing? Like, why are you working in and I'm not working. So, uh, we was able to kind of motivate and inspire each other to really make things happen. Um, and then with being in a virtual environment and then coming from a fitness background, I'll say like, I really didn't miss getting up at 5:00 AM for, you know, early sessions. Um, so, you know, there, there were some things that I really enjoyed from it. >>There's definitely a pros and cons. Yeah. I'm not getting up at 5:00 AM. So, yeah. So then in terms of like not getting up at >> 5: 00 AM Jerry, are you able to kind of create your own curriculum and complete it at your own? >>So there was a curriculum provided by the program. Um, as I always say, you need to do that plus more, getting away with the bare minimum. Isn't just enough. So in addition to the curriculum, I would take extra hours and really dive deeper into it to make sure that I had a firm grasp on it. >>So, Maureen, I can't imagine what this would have been like without programs like this. I think the name is, I think we all want a research. I think you're looking for the calendar to children in a couple of weeks to have a restart, but talk to me about some of the other opportunities and some of the big transformations like Jared's that you're helping people achieve. Well, I think, you know, we at AWS, we really believe in, in providing as much access to education and we have pivoted our entire curriculum to virtual, either virtual instructor led training or digital training. We have a digital platform, um, with 500 free courses on it. So really anybody can learn, you know, I talked a little bit about this earlier in the week, you know, my dad was asking me what, you know, what's cloud, what does that mean? >>And I introduced him to the cloud practitioner. So I think, you know, it's, it's anyone from, you know, my 78 year old father to two young kids really trying to, um, w you know, introduced STEM, you know, STEM into STEM programs, AWS cloud, and how it, how it, um, you know, and have them play around with it. So it's, it's, uh, there's a lot of amazing things. We've also, you know, we provide our curriculum into universities through our Academy and educate programs as well. So we just, we want to reach out to anybody that we can, we want to provide training to anybody that wants it. Um, and, and we do that through delivering it ourselves and through partnerships. And I love that. You just talked about such, such breadth of folks like Jared, to folks like your dad, wanting to understand something differently. I think that my mom learns about the cloud because she watches the queue, but I love that there's now the opportunity to reach even more people and help them transform, which right now, I can't imagine a better opportunity. Jared, what's your one piece of advice for folks, maybe in your situation who are going, we're locked down again. I don't know what's going to happen next year. We can't count on this vaccine to be this, this one day, June 1st, everything's going to open back up. What do you recommend that they do to not be afraid to take on something completely different? >>I would say stay fluid, um, be ready for anything that can come your way, uh, when you're able to change and move directions, uh, the force doesn't stop. It just goes, just goes more directed somewhere else. So when you're in control of that, um, there was the whole set going to be amazing. >>Jared, congratulations. I, I find you very inspirational. I'm sure your son does as well. Who knows? Maybe he'll be a esteem kid one of these days, but that's congratulations on having a discipline in a time that nobody ever could have predicted it, that we would be living in. And Maureen, I want to ask the last question to you following on to the question for Jared. What do you recommend to folks who are going, I don't know, should I look into this? It's, I'm scared of it, or I don't have this experience. What do you say? Yeah. I don't think people should be scared about it. I think Jared said to set it well, you know, you just have to have a desire to learn and, and a curiosity, and, and when we help you get there, right, we provide the program. So if you have an interesting cloud, whether it's through our restart program or any of our digital offerings, you know, take the digital offerings are probably the easiest way to go in and, you know, be curious yourself and take cloud practitioner. >>It's, it's online and it's available for free. And then you can start to see how you can build your skills. And if you're interested in restart, by all means, you know, go ahead and apply for the program. Um, we're looking for builders for the future. I love that the amount of opportunities are endless with this. So we'll say to folks be like, Jared. Yes, the health crisis is looming, but cloud is booming and there's opportunity for you. So be like Jared, Jared, and Maureen. Thank you so much for joining us today. This has been a great conversation. Thanks Lisa. Thanks Sharon. >>Thank you. It was a pleasure. >>All right, guys. Thank you so much for my desk. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. >>Okay.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. Special coverage sponsored by AWS Global Partner Network. Hello, everyone. This is Dave Balanta. And welcome to the cubes Virtual coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 with a special focus on the A p N partner experience. I'm excited to have two great guests on the program. Fernando Castillo is the head s a p on AWS Partner Network and s A P Alliance and AWS and Stephen Jones is the general manager s a p E c to enterprise that aws Gentlemen, welcome to the Cube. Great to see you. >>I'm here. >>So guys ASAP on AWS. It's a core workload for customers. I call it the poster child for mission Critical workloads and applications. Now a lot has happened since we last talked to you guys. So So tell us it. Maybe start with Stephen. What's going on with Sapna Ws? Give us the update. >>I appreciate the question Day. Look, a lot of customers continue to migrate. These mission critical workloads State of us on a good example is the U. S. Navy right? Who moved their entire recipe landscape European workload AWS. This is a very large system of support. Over 72,000 users across 66 different navy commands. They estimate that 70 billion worth of parts and goods actually transact through the system every year. Just just massive. Right? And this this type of adoptions continued to accelerate a very rapid clip. And today, over 5000 customers now are running SFP workloads. I need to be us on there really trusting us, uh, to to manage and run these workloads. And another interesting stat here is that more than half of these customers are actually running asap, Hana, which is a safe He's flagship in memory database. >>Right, Fernando, can you add to that? >>Sure. So definitely about, you know, the customs are also SCP themselves continue to lose a dollar less to run their own offerings. Right? So think about conquer SCP platform. SCP analytics were when new offers like Hannah Cloud. In addition to that, we continue to see the P and L despondent network to grow at an accelerated pace. Today we have over 60 SNP company partners all over the world helping SFP customers s O that customers are my green. There s appeal asking CW's. They only look for reduced costs, improved performance but also toe again access to new capabilities. So innovate around their core business systems and transform their businesses. >>So for now, I wonder if I could stay with you for a minute. I mean, the numbers that Steve was putting out there, it's just massive scale. So you obviously have a lot of data. So I'm wondering when you talk to these customers, Are you discerning any common patterns that are emerging? What are some of the things that you're hearing or seeing when you analyze the data? >>Sure. So just to give a couple example right. Our biggest customers are doing complete ASAP. Transformations on Toe s four Hana. Their chance they're going to these new S a p r p code nine All customers have immediate needs, and they're taking their existing assets to AWS, so looking to reduce costs and improve performance, but also to sell them apart for innovation. This innovation is something that operation or something that they can wait. They need it right now. It's they This time to innovate is now right on some of these customers saying that while s and P has nice apart. So that is a multi year process on most organizations and have a look from waiting for this just before they start innovating. So instead of that, they focus on bringing what they have on start innovating right away on Steve has some great stories around here, so maybe Steve can share with that. Goes with that? >>Yeah, that'd be great, Steve. >>Yeah. Look, I think a good example here on and Fernando touched it, touched on it. Well, right. So customers coming from all kind of different places in their journey aws as it relates to this this critical workload and some are looking to really reap the benefits of the investments they made over the last couple decades sometimes. And Vista is a really good example Here, um there a subsidiary of Cook Industries, they migrated and moved their existing S a P r P solution called E c C. To AWS. They estimate that this migration alone from an infrastructure cost savings perspective, has netted them about two million per year. Additionally, you know, they started to bring some of the other issues they were trying to solve from a business perspective, together now that they were on the on the on the business on the AWS platform. And one thing that recognizes they had different data silos, that they had been operating in an on premises world. Right? So massive factories solution and bringing all of that data together on a single platform on AWS and enriching that with the SCP data has allowed them to actually improve their forecasting supply chain processes across multiple data sources and the estimate that that is saving them additional millions per year. So again, customers are not necessarily waiting to innovate. Um, but actually moving forward now. >>All right, so I gotta ask, you don't hate me for asking this question, but but everybody talks about how great they are. Supporting s a P is It's one of the top, of course, because s a p, you know, huge player in the in the application space. So I want you guys to address how aws specifically compares Thio some of your competitors that are, you know, the hyper scaler specifically as it relates to supporting S a P workloads. What's the rial differential value that you guys bring? Maybe Steve, you could start >>Sure, you're probably getting to know us a little bit. Way don't focus a lot on competition, Aziz mentioned week We continue to see customers adopt AWS for S a p a really rapid clip. And that alone actually brings a lot of feedback back into how we consider our own service offerings as it relates to this particular workload on that, that's it. That's important signal right for what we're building. But customers do tell us the security performance availability matters, especially for this workload, which, you know, to be honest, is the backbone of many, many organizations. Right? And we understand why. And there was a study that was done recently about a. D. C. Where they found that even a single hour of unplanned downtime as a released this particular workload could cost millions. And so it's it's super important. And if you look at, um, you know, publicly available data from an average perspective, um, it has considerably less downtime than the other hyper scale is out there way. Take the performance and availability of oh, our entire global footprint and in this workload in particular, super important. >>Well, you know, that's a great point, Steve. I mean, if you got critical mission critical applications like ASAP supporting the business, that's driving revenue. It's driving productivity. The higher the value of the application, the greater the impact when it's down, I wonder, Fernando, you know, Steve said, You guys don't focus on the competition. Well, is an analyst. You know, I always focused on the competition, So I wonder if you're gonna add anything to that. >>Sure. So again, as you can imagine, multiple analyst called Space right. And, uh, everybody shares information. And analysts have agreed that Italy's clean infrastructure services, including the three quite a for CP across the globe. So we feel very humble and honor about this recognition on this encourages to continue to improve ourselves to give you a couple examples for a 10 year in a row. Italy's US evaluated as a leader in the century Gardner Magic Quadrant, right for cloud infrastructure from services. And, as you know, the measure to access right they measure very execute on complete, insufficient were the highest, both of them. Another third party, just not keep with one is icy, right? You know, technology research dreamers, you already you might know advice for famous Well, the reason they publisher s a p on infrastructure service provider lands reports long name which, basically, the analyzers providers were best suited to host s a. P s four hana workloads on more broadly s a p Hannah landscapes, you know, very large scape ASAP 100 landscapes. So they recognize it, at least for the third year in a row. And conservative right, the best class enterprise. Great infrastructure towards security performances, Steve mentioned, but also making the panic community secure. Differentiation. Andi, they posted. They mentioned it all us as a little position in quadrant for the U. S. U K France, Germany, the Nordics in Brazil. So again, really honor and humble on discontinued in court just to continue to improve. >>You know, Steve, I just wrote a piece on Cloud 2030 trying to project what the next 10 years is gonna look like in one of the I listed a lot of things, but one of the things I talked about was some of the technical factors like alternative processors, specialized networks, and you guys have have have really, always done a good job of sort of looking at purpose built, you know, stuff that that can run workloads faster. How relevant is that in the the S A P community? >>Oh, that's a great question, David. It's It's absolutely relevant. You take a look at what? What we've done over the years with nitro and how we've actually brought the ability for customers to run on environmental infrastructure but still have that integrated, uh, native cloud experience. Uh, that is absolutely applicable to Unless if you workload and we're actually able toe with that technology, bring the capability to customers to run thes mission critical workloads on instances with up to 24 terabytes of brand, albeit bare metal, but fully integrated into the AWS network fabric, >>right? I mean, a lot of people, you know, need that bare metal raw performance on, and that makes sense that you've been, you know, prioritize such an important class of workload. I'm not surprised that that I mean, the numbers that you threw out a pretty impressive eso. It's clear you're leading the charge here. Maybe you could share a little glimpse of what's coming in the future. Show us a little leg, Steve. >>Yeah, well, look, uh, we know that infrastructure is super important. Thio. Our customers and in particular the customers are running these mission critical workloads. But there's a lot of heavy lifting, uh, that that we also want to simplify. And so you've seen some indications of what we've done here over the years, uh, ice G that Fernando mentioned actually called out. AWS is differentiating here, right? So for for many years, we've actually been leading in releasing tools for customers to actually orchestrate and automate the deployment of these types of worthless so ASAP in particular. I mean, if you think about it a customer who is coming to a to a hyper scale platforms like AWS and having to learn what that means, Plus understand all the best practices from S, A, P and AWS to make that thing really shine from a performance and availability perspective, that's a heavy asked. Right? So we put a lot of work from a tooling perspective into into automating this and making this super simple not just for customers, but also partners. >>Anything you wanna chime in on that particular the partner side, Fernando. >>Sure. So this is super important for public community, right? As you can imagine, the tooling that we're bringing together toe. The market is helping the Spanish to move quicker, right? So they don't have to reinvent. They will all the time. They will just take this and move and take it and move forward. Give an example. One of our parents in New York, three hosts. Thanks for lunch. We start with Steve just reference right. They want to create work clothes in an automated way. Speeding up the delivery time. 75% corporation is every environments. So it just imagine the the impact of these eso a thing here that is important is our goal is to help customers and partners move quicker, removing any undifferentiated heavy lifting, right, Andi, that's kind of the mantra of this group. >>You know, when you think about what Doug Young was saying is in the keynote, um, the importance of partners and I've been on this kick about we've moved in this industry from products to platforms, and the next 10 years is gonna be about leveraging ecosystems. The power of many versus the resource is of a few or even one is large is a W s so so partners air critical on I wonder if you could talk toe the role that that the network partners air playing in affecting S a p customer outcomes and strategies. Maybe Steve, you could take that first. >>Yeah, but look, we recognize that the migration on the management of these systems it's complex, right? And for years, we've invested in a global community of partners many partners who have been fundamental to s a p customer success over over a couple decades, Right? And so, um, that there are some nuances that that need to be realized when it comes to running ASAP on on a hyper scale platforms like AWS. And so we put a lot of work into making sure these partners are equipped to ensure customers have have a really good experience. And I mean, in a recent conversation I had with a CEO of a large, uh, CPG company, he told me he reflected that the partners really are the glue. That kind of brings it all together for them. And, uh, you know, just to share something with you today, our partners, our partner community network for S. If he is actually helping over 90% of net new customers who are coming toe migrate as if you were close to AWS, so they're just absolutely critical. >>So, Fernando, there's the m word, the migration, you know, it's you don't want to unless you have to, but people have to move to the cloud. So So what can you add to this conversation? >>Sure, they So again, just to echo what Steve mentioned, right? Uh, migration. Super important. We have ah group of partners that are right now specializing in migration projects. And they have built migration factories. You may have seen some of them. They have been doing press releases through the whole year saying that they're part of these and their special cells they're bringing to the helping customers adopt AWS. So they go through the next, you know, very detailed process. We call them map for ASAP partners. So they have these incremental value on top of being SCP competent funds, which I referred earlier on. This group has, as mentioned, you know, show additional capability to safeguard these migrations on. Of course, we appreciate and respect and we have put investment programs for them to help them support their own customers right in those in these migrations. But because the SNP ecosystem on it. But it's not about only migrations, right? One important topic that we need technologies as you as Steve mentioned, we have these great set of partner of customers have trusted us or 5000 through a year on these, uh, these customers asking for innovation right there, asking us how come the ecosystem help us innovate faster? So these partners are using a dollars a plan off innovation, creating new solutions that are relevant for SCP. So basically helping customers modernize their business processes so you can take an example like Accenture Data Accelerator writers taking SCP information and data legs Really harm is the power of data there or the Lloyd you know, kinetic finances helping, you know, deploy Central finance, which is a key component of SCP, or customer like partners like syntax that has created our industrial i o. T. Offering that connects with the SNP core. So more and more you will see thes ecosystem partners innovating on AWS to support SNP customers. >>You know, I think that's such an important point because for for decades have been around for a while. It's the migrations air like this. Oftentimes there's forced March because maybe a vendor is not going to support it anymore. Or you're just trying to, you know, squeeze Mawr costs out of the lemon. What you guys are talking about is leveraging an ecosystem for innovation and again that ties into the themes that we're talking about about Cloud 2030 in the next decade of innovation. Let's close, guys. What can customers ASAP customers AWS customers expect from reinvent this year? Um, you know, maybe more broadly, what can they expect from A W S in the coming 12 months? Maybe, Steve, you could give us a sense, and then Fernando could bring us home. >>You bet. Look, um, this year we've really tried to focus on customer stories, right? So we've we've optimized. There's a number of sessions here agreement this year. We want customers and partners to learn from other from other customer experiences, so customers will be able to listen to Bristol Myers Squibb talk about their performance, their their experiences, Alando Newmont's and Volkswagen. And I'll be talking about kind of different places where they are on this, this journey to cloud and this innovation life cycle, right, because it really is about choice and what's right for their business. So we're pretty excited about that. >>Yeah. Nice mix of representative Industries there. I Fernando bring us home, please. >>Sure. So, again, we think about 21 in the future. Rest assured, we'll continue to invest heavily to make sure it values remains the platform innovation. Right on choice for recipe customers where a customer wants to move their existing investments on continue to add value. So what they have already done for years or goto export transformation. We're here to support their choice. Right? And we're committed to that as part of our customers Asian culture. So we're super excited about the future. And we're thankful for you to spend time with us today. >>Great, guys, Look, these are the most demanding workloads we're seeing that that rapid movement to the cloud is just gonna accelerate over the coming years. Thanks so much for coming on The Cube. Really appreciate it. >>Our pleasure. Thank >>you. All >>right. Thank you for watching everyone keep it right there from or great content. You're watching the cube aws reinvent 2020

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of PegaWorld Inspire brought to you by Pegasystems. Everybody welcome back to PegaWorld Inspired 2020 this is theCUBE and I'm Dave Vellante, we're here with Adam Field who is the head of innovation and experience at Pegasystems. Adam thanks for coming on, how are you doing man? >> It's my pleasure Dave, I'm doing well how are you? >> Good thank you, I'm excited we're talking innovation, we're talking to innovation hub but to start with your role I love the title, what do you do? Give us the background story. >> Yeah I get that question quite a bit so, I've been with Pega a little over 15 years now and I've held many roles, but currently as head of innovation and experience we have a team I like to call them Creative Misfits, if you will, we sort of bridge that gap between technology and creative, we do research on emerging tech and try to understand how our clients might use it, how it's going to change the future of work, that's the innovation side, on the experience side, we do things like for these PegaWorld events, we match we where art meets tech and we build these experiential things that people come and see at our events, we build all the demos and all the production that you see on the main stage, so we kind of touch a lot of different things around the future of where technology is going. >> Well, I can see, obviously you're innovative, you've got the awesome set up there, the great mic and sound, (laughing) fantastic you look good So and now you've been involved in previous PegaWorld both from behind the scenes and out front speaking obviously this is completely different, how did you prep differently for PegaWorld 2020 virtual versus what you normally do? >> Yeah right so this will be my well 16th I guess PegaWorld and obviously this one stands out as the most different normally we'd be in Boston today, we would have been, you know, working on our stage production and on a floor that's 170,000 square feet big with dozens of booths and hundreds of demos, and obviously this was completely different, but as far as prep goes, I remember the day we learned that early March, this was going virtual and after a few moments of sadness, the team really came together, and I remember the first thing we talked about is we're not going to take a three day event and try to put it all online. Let's--we know people's time is valuable, let's figure out how to take just what's important and get it out to people so that they're inspired to move forward and engage with Pega, so I think that's really been the biggest change in how we've prepped. >> Well, I think that's a great point because obviously theCUBE has been very much involved in these virtual events and. >> Right. >> People send out the note, hey we've made the tough decision to go virtual that's easy decision you really had no choice. >> That's right. >> The tough decision is what do you want to preserve from the physical and understanding that you can't just pop physical into virtual and you got to create a whole new content program, I think Robert Scoble wrote a post on, if you saw it he talks about, hey you better go out and hire Beyonce, oh you can't afford to be for Beyonce? well you better make your content interesting. So to me Adam, that's the tough part, help us understand how you thought that through and what the outcome actually is. >> Yeah, that's right. We didn't have Beyonce, but we did have the Dropkick Murphys, so that was pretty cool and they did a concert for us, so that's been great. But again a lot of people talk about all this free time that they have and I know I have two young kids who are schooling at home now, a job that's busier than it's ever been. I've tried to join a lot of these virtual events and frankly I have gotten overwhelmed, so we took two days and we boiled it down in a two and a half hours, and what we decided to do is we looked at all the areas which we go to market and how people design and deliver their apps, and some of the tech like Pega cloud that they use. And we went to our, I went to my extended team and I said, normally you have 75 booths, we're going to boil that down to 25, let's work together to figure that out. Normally your demos might be 20 minutes when someone walks up, we want to make them seven. But I think the biggest thing that we did, we said what we don't want to lose is that interactivity, and so we had online dozens of Pega experts we could ask questions live, Alan was online doing answering questions live. We made sure that we included live components, our host, Don Sherman was live from his house. We didn't just pre-record everything because then, why would anyone come join when they could just go watch it, 30 minutes later on your YouTube channel? >> See that's innovation to me is having that combination of live. Obviously, you've got to do some stuff a prerecorded, but having a live component adds a dimension, it's challenging, but that's pushing the envelope and I love it. The other thing is, Adam is roles. The roles are different in a virtual event, are they? You're not doing site inspections Like you said, you're not dealing with 170,000 square feet. How did you guys rethink the roles for virtual? >> Yeah so, there were some teams whose world was completely upended. You know, when this all went virtual, the people that do exactly what you were just talking about, dealing with hotels and vendors and things like that, and I got to tell you, one of the most events called PegaWorld Inspire and not to sound too cheesy about it, but one of the things that was really inspiring was to see how everyone stepped up and said, truly, how can I help? And what was really neat about it is we saw different skill sets come out of people that, maybe they hadn't had the opportunity to flex before where they might've worked on one thing that was no longer needed because of the change in the format, and they jumped into become copywriters or liaisons between cause now we have new vendors in this tech world that we didn't have that we turned around in just a matter of weeks. We had people like on my team who normally last year, build this massive physical exhibit containing mirrors and lights, that became video producers, to produce some of these live videos that we did. And one of the things was really impressive, you asked earlier about how did we prep differently and what changed? We looked in the marketplace for different tech and how to bring our CEO and our host and our head of product and everyone together live in split screen, and when you're a big studio you know, and you have that equipment ready to go, that's easy, but when you're just getting average people in their homes and you want to put all that together, we're finding some of the tech in the marketplace just wasn't there. My team built some new video chat technologies that they actually use to produce this in real time, so that was really impressive to me how we turn that around and really innovated not only the things that everyone sees, but all the stuff behind the scenes to. >> See again I think this is what's amazing to me is as I learned more and more about Pega interview Alan earlier. >> Sure. >> Pega is all about being able to adapt to these changes. So a lot of the processes we are using in virtual events, they're unknown. In normally software right through the history of software is okay, here's how the software works. Figure out how to fit your process into it, very rigid. >> That's right. >> Today you know, the last three months with this lockdown in this coronavirus have been completely unknown, and so that's sort of one of the hallmarks of your company, isn't it? >> That's right and we've had the tagline Build For Change for really long time, and I will tell you, I remember in that first meeting again, when we learned this was going virtual and someone stood up and they said, guys we're about to live our tagline. And people really do believe in that, 'cause we go to our clients every single day and say, change is what's going to make you special changes is what's going to make you different, now's your opportunity, seize that change and run with it. And so we said, look, we can't change the world right now, we know we got to go virtual, all we can do is change the type of event that we do, we're not going to do the standard event that we think every one else is going to do, let's do it differently and today was a pretty good example, I think we achieved that. >> I think a couple of things from a challenge standpoint, you mentioned the chat, how do you get people to engage? You had to sort of invent something. >> Yeah. >> And then really think it through for virtual. And I think the other is tech people come to these events, they want to touch the tech. And so you've got you know the innovation hub, it's where people get to play with the technology. You got to take us through how you thought through that and. >> Right. >> What the outcome is. >> Yeah, so that is the toughest part, and I got to tell you, you know all of this being said, I'm looking forward to someday being able to get back and meeting my clients in person, and I'm the type, when I see you on the floor of the innovation hub, I run by a booth and high five you for all the great weeks of hard work, you know? And I love to see people's faces, they see the demos and that's tough not being able to see them smile and get that moment of wow. But what was interesting was it really helped us hone our messages. I think we really realized when I went to everybody and said you don't have 20 minutes, you have seven minutes, here's a template, to follow, to be able to tell your story better, and people started thinking in that mode of storytelling, and what was interesting was lot of people came back to me and said, actually you know what? I can tell that story in a much more crisp way and really show people what they need to see in a in a much faster timeframe. And what it really allowed us to do was find those bits that we thought were most important, find those demos that we think are most important and just, you know bubble those up. One of the things we also did too, we took the opportunity to say you know what, we're going to be online, I watch my kids. My kids are avid gamers whether I like it or not, and they. >> Yeah. >> Watch these Twitch streams, and we thought well, we should be able to do that with even corporate software. So we had these live build sessions where we took some of our developers and I said you're going to be put on the hot seat for 15 minutes on script and we're going to let people just guide and direct you. And they were a little nervous at first, but they went off great, and it was a new format we had never tried before. So if we keep doing these types of different things and we just embrace the moment that we're in I think people will really really come to it and get some value out of it. >> I mean that's awesome, you've got to keep your audience engaged, and so you do lose, you don't have a captive audience, so you lose some time in terms of how much you can you know? how much Kool-Aid injection you can give him. I mean take 20 minutes down to seven minutes. But so you do lose some of that, but what do you gain with virtual? >> Well, I think one of the things that you obviously gain is you can be more widespread, so yeah, you know this event reached tens of thousands of people in dozens of countries. I did an event first week of April, so you can imagine you know, we had two weeks to turn on and I was supposed to be in London and Amsterdam presenting in soccer stadiums. And instead we made that a one hour virtual event and we thought, well, we're just going to get people from the London market and from the Netherlands market, and it turned out, we got people from all over the world to join. So one of the benefits to this is the reach, so we're able to reach a lot more people. I'd say one of the other just things that we realized after tours we're creating a lot of content, we filmed all of this as we were rehearsing, and we're going to put it up online later, so now we have all this great content that anyone can use and go view later, so that was sort of you know, unexpected outcome as well. >> Right yeah, you lose the airline miles, but you gain. (laughing) as I want to going to say you gian the post. >> I don't mind not traveling as well. >> Yeah I here you but, but you do gain that post and I think with physical events, people always at the end of it, it's like, I've never given birth, but I've witnessed that many times. but people feel like, okay, I got to just chill out now for a couple of weeks, and then when they come back, now they're swamped, they've got to catch up. And I think people are realizing, wow, there's a real opportunity maximize the post event here, post nurturing peep streaming out content and continue that engagement, that is a plus of these virtual event. >> Oh, for sure, and you know we started early on deciding how are we going to do, what are we going to do is follow ups you know? That European event that I talked about once again instead of taking all these different markets and trying to replicate it, we did one one hour event. But then because we were in the early days of COVID and some of our clients weren't able to get recorded and speak, we did subsequent webinars in the weeks following them, and the attendance was fantastic. So it allowed us to plan ahead and you know, have a lot of followup activities that we're starting to launch right now as soon as the event ended. >> How do you feel about the outcome for Pega? Do you think it was better, worse, the same or just different? >> I'm going to go with different you know, like I said I get energy I love being up on stage in front of 5,000 people, I love meeting my clients in person, I love the energy of being with my colleagues, but you know it is what it is, We had to do it, and I think what we really embraced it, so I'll say it's just a different way of doing things, but you know I do look forward to the day that I'm able to go meet my clients again and get back on stage and produce some really great things and once again being able to physically see our attendees go oh, when they actually see the software in person, that's the most rewarding thing for me. >> It's going to be interesting as we come out of this I mean, very clearly things are going to be different probably going to have hybrid for some time. Maybe even indefinitely but I'm interested in some of the learnings, some of the things that you think will be permanent, some of the advice. And one of the things I always say to people is don't start with what software are we going to use in there? Your software platform, think about the experience that you want to work backwards from there but what are other advice would you give for given your experiences? >> Right. >> You're so right about that point, I remember interviewing a lot of vendors that we were going to use to bring this online and we were telling them what we wanted to do, and some of them said no one's ever asked about that before we can't do that, so you're a hundred percent right about that. The advice I will say, and the thing I do worry about a little bit is, at first people were a little bit more accepting if maybe the video quality wasn't as good, or you know the content was like any old webinar. As months ago on expectations are going to be higher, people are going to have attended a lot of these things so you're going to have to keep upping the game. And I think the advice I would give is try to take what's great about an in person event and put it online but don't try to replicate the event and put it online. And some of the best things about in person events are just the live nature of it, take the risks, do some live stuff. People will really appreciate that, you'll get a lot of credit for that. The interactivity is what's important about a live event, so as best you can, figure out how to make sure there's some interactivity. Now in the early days I think it's going to be some live Q and A as we move on, it'll be real private rooms with experts that you're able to have one-on-one chats and go through and bounce around and be able to talk to people you know, just like you would accept, between two cameras instead of in person. So I think everyone is months go on. they just going to have to up their game. I think that's great advice, you're absolutely right up your game, up your brand, get a good camera, get good sound, and it's going to just, help your personal brand and your company's brand. Adam. >> We learned what it was like to try to ship microphone and camera equipment around the world (laughing) overnight so we're experts at that, if you you've got any questions. >> Well, I mean what a difference it made, so Adam, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE and sharing your experiences. You guys, have one of the best that we've seen at the Virtual Event Platform so congratulations on that and really appreciate your contribution (mumbles). >> Thanks it's my pleasure, great to talk to you today (mumbles). All right, keep it right there buddy, this is theCUBES coverage of PegaWorld Inspire 2020 the virtual event, will be right back after a short break. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of you. I path live the release show brought to you by you. >>I path Hi. Welcome back to this special R p A drill down with support from you. I path You're watching The Cube. My name is Dave Volante and Bobby CMO. You know I passed Bobby. Good to see you again. Hope you're doing well. Thanks for coming on. >>Hi, Dave. It's great to see you as well. It's always a pleasure to be on the Cube and even in the virtual format, this is really exciting. >>So, you know, last year at forward, we talked about the possibility of a downturn. Now nobody expected this kind of downturn. But we talked about that. Automation was likely something that was going to stay strong even in the downturn. We were thinking about potential recession or an economic downturn. Stock market dropped, but nothing like this. How are you guys holding up in this posted 19 pandemic? What are you seeing in the marketplace? >>Yeah, we certainly we're not thinking of a black swan or rhino or whatever we call this, but, you know, it's been a pretty crazy couple of months for everybody. You know, when When this first started, we were like everybody else. Not sure how it impact our business. The interesting thing has been that you're in code. It actually brought a reality check through. A lot of companies and organizations realize that it's very few tools to respond quickly, right? Bond with, you know, cost pressures that we're urgent or preserving revenue, perhaps, or responding to Ah, strange resource is, you know, in all centers, or or built to support. You know, the surge in in, um, in the healthcare community. And so r p a became one of those tools that quickly waas knowledge and adopted. And so we went out two months ago to go find those 1st 1st use cases. Talk about him, then. You know, 1st 30 days we had 50 in production, right? Companies, you know, great organizations like Cleveland Clinic, right? You know where they use their parking lot? Give the first tests the swab tests, right of, uh, well, who have proven right? You know, they had a line of 88 hours by, you know, putting a robot in place in two days. They got that line down by 80 or 90% right? It is a huge hit as we see that kind of a kind of benefit all across right now in the world. Right now we have. We were featured in The Wall Street Journal recently with nurses and a large hospital system in Ireland called Matter. The nurses said in the interview that, you know they have. They were able to free up time to be a patient's right, which is what they're there for, anyway, thanks to robots during this during this emergency. So I think you know, it's it's definitely raise The awareness that that this technology is provides an amazing time to value, and that's it's pretty unprecedented in the world of B two B software. >>I want to share some data with you in our community is the first time we've we've shown this. Guys would bring up the data slide, and so this is ah, chart that e. T are produced. There's enterprise technology research. They go out of reporter. They survey CIOs and I T practitioners and a survey in different segments and the use of methodology Net score. And this is sort of how method how Net scores derived. And so what this chart shows is the percent of customers that responded there were about 125 You I path customers that responded. Are you adopting new U I path? Are you increasing spending in 2020? Are you planning on flat spending or decreasing spending? Are you replacing the platform of beacons? And so basically, we take the green, uh, subtract the read from the green, and that gives us net score. But the point is that Bobby abouts about 80% of your customers are planning to spend Maurin 2020 than they spent in 2019 and only about 6% of planning on spending less, which is fairly astounding. I mean, we've been reporting on this for a while in the heat nous in the in the automation market generally and specifically. But are you seeing this in the marketplace? And maybe you could talk about why? >>Well, we just finished our first fiscal quarter into the end of April, and we're still privately held, so we can be, uh, find some insights of our company, but yeah, the the pace of our business picked up actually in in the mark. April timeframe. Um, customer adoption, large customer adoption. Um, the number of new new companies and new logos were at a record high. And, you know, we're entering into this quarter now, and we have some 20 plus $1,000,000 deals that are like that. It closed, right? I mean, that's probably a 30% increase Versus what? How many we have today alone. Right? So our business, you know, is is now well over 400 million and air are we ended last year, 3 60 and the growth rate continues fast. I think you know what's interesting is that the pace of the recode world was already fast, right? The the luxury of time has kind of disappeared. And so people are thinking about, you know, they don't have they can't wait now, months and years for digital transformation. They have to do things in days and days and days and weeks. And and that's where our technology really comes into play. Right? And and and it actually is also coming to play well in the world of the remote workforce. Reality two of the ability for remote workers to get trained while they're home on automation to build automation pipelines to to build automation. Now, with our latest release, you can download our podcast, capture and report what you're doing, and it basically generates the process definition document and the sample files, which allow for faster implementation by our center of excellence. So what's really happening here? We see it is a sense of urgency coming out of this. Prices are coming down the curve. Hopefully, now this is of urgency that our customers are facing in terms of how they respond, you know, and respond digitally to helping their business out. And it varies a lot by industry, our state and local business was really thinking was not going to be the biggest laggard of any industry picked up in a significant way in the last couple of months, New York State, with Governor Cuomo, became a big customer of ours. There's a quote from L. A County, see Iot that I've got here. They just employed us. It's public, this quote, he said. Deputy CIO said Price is always the mother of invention. We can always carry forward the good things they're coming out of this crisis situation. He's referring to our P A is being a lesson. They learned hearing this, that they're going to carry forward. And so we see this state of Oklahoma became a customer and others. So I think that's that's what we're seeing kind of a broad based. It's worldwide. >>You're really organizations can't put it off anymore. I think you're right. It sort of brought forward the future into the present. Now you mentioned 360 million last year. We had forecast 350 million was pretty good for you guys released, so it's happy about that. But so obviously still a strong trajectory. You know, it might have been higher without without covert. We'll never know, but sort of underscores the strength of the space. Um, and February you guys, there was an article that so you're essentially Theo Dan, Daniel Hernandez was quoted. Is that on hold now? Are you guys still sort of thinking about pressing forward or too early to say right? >>Yeah. I mean, I think I think the reality is we have a very, very strong business. We've raised, you know, significant money from great investors, some of which are the leading VCs in the world. and also that the public company investors and, you know, we have, ah, aggressive plan. We have an aggressive plan to build out our platform for hyper automation to continue. The growth path is now becoming the center of companies of I, T and Digital Strategies, not on the side. Right. And so to do that, you know, we're gonna want capital to help fuel our our our ambitions and fuel Our ability to serve our customers and public markets is probably a very, very logical one. As Daniel mentioned in a in a A recent, uh, he's on Bloomberg that he definitely sees. That is ah, maybe accelerating that, You know, we're late Last year, we started focusing on sustainable growth as a company and operational regular. These are important things in addition to having strong growth that, you know, a long term company has to have in place. And I can tell you, um, I'm really excited about the fact that we, you know, we operate very much like a public company. Now, internally, we you know, we do draft earnings releases that aren't public yet, and we do mock earnings, earnings calls, and we have hired Thomas Hansen is runs our chief revenue officer with storage backgrounds. And so you're gonna interview as well. These are these are these are the best of the best, right? That joint, they're joined this company, they're joining alongside the arm Kalonzo the world that are part of this company. And so I think, Yeah, I think it's an AR It's likely. And and it's gonna We're here to be a long term leader in this decade of automation. >>Well, and one of the other things that we forecast on our breaking analysis we took a look at the total available market kind of like into it. Early days of service Now is you know, people were really not fully understanding the market and chillin C it is is quite large, so video. So when we look at the competition, you know, you guys, if I showed you the same wheel with automation anywhere, it would also look strong. You know, some of the others, maybe not a strong but still stronger than many of the segments. I mean, for instance, you know, on Prem hardware. You know, compared with that and you know the automation space in general across the board is very, very strong. So I wonder if maybe you could talk a little bit about how you guys differentiate from the competition. How you see that? >>Yeah, I think you know, we've We've come a long way in the last three years, right? In terms of becoming the market leader, having the highest market share, we're very open and transparent about our numbers with We've long had the vision of a robot. Every person, uh, and and we've been delivering on that on on that vision and ah, building out a platform that helps companies, you know, transform digitally enterprise wide. Right. So, you know, I don't see any of our competitors with a platform for hyper automation like this. We have an incredible focus on the ability to help people actually find the ideas, build the pipeline, score the pipelines and integrate those with the automation center of excellence. Right? We have the ability now with our latest release to help test automation testers now not only in the world of art A but actually take robotic robots and and architecture into doing test automation. The traditional test automation market in a much better and faster way So you know, we're innovating at a pace that that it is, I think, much faster than I don't. I don't know automation anywhere. I won't share any their numbers. You know, who knows what the numbers are. We have guesses, but I'm fairly certain that we continue to gain share on them. But you know, what's most important is customer adoption, and we've also seen a number of customers switch from some of our competitors to us. Our competitors are undercapitalized and middle. Invest in R and D. This is an investment area, really build a platform out from our competitors have architectures that are hard to upgrade, right? This has been a big source of pain for companies that have been on our competitors. Where upgrades are difficult requires them to retest every time where our upgrades are very rolling, you know, are very smooth. We have an insider program which you know, I don't think any of our competitors have. If you go inside that you had pat that your customer every single bit every single review betting, private preview, public preview and general availability, you can provide feedback on and the customers can score up new ideas. They drive our our roadmap. Right. And this is I think we operate differently. I think our growth is a is a good indication of that. And, you know, and there are new competitors like Microsoft. But I think you know, you know, medium or long term, you know, they're gonna make effort around our, um and you know, they're behind the, um, automation is really hard. The buried entry here is not it's not. Not easy. And we're going to keep me on that platform, play out, and I think that's ah, that's what makes us so different. Um and ah, you know, we have the renewal numbers, retention numbers, expansion numbers and and the revenue numbers to improve that, uh, you know, we're number one. >>Well, so I mean, there's a lot of ways to skin the cat, and you're right. You guys are really focused, you know, you automation anywhere really focused on this space, and you shared with us how you differentiate there. But as you point out Microsoft, they sort of added on I had talked to Allan, preferably the day from paga. You know, those guys don't position themselves as our PC, but they have r p A. I talked to, you know, our mutual friend Robert Young John the other day, right? They're piling onto this this trend, right? So why not? Right, It's it's ah, it's hot. But so, you know, clearly you guys are innovating there. I want to talk about your vision before we get into the latest product release two things that I would call out the term hyper automation with, I think is the Gartner term. And then it will probably stick. And then this this idea of a robot for every person How would you describe your vision? >>Yeah, I mean, we think that robots can and improve, you know, the the lives of of or pers everywhere, right? We think in every every function, every role. And we see that already, the job satisfaction and the people don't want to do the mundane, repetitive work, right? The new hires coming out of college, you know, they're gonna be excel and sequel server. We're no longer the tools of productivity. For them, it's it's your path. We have business. Schools that have committed top tier business schools have committed to deploying your path or to putting you're passing every force in the school these students are graduating with the right path is their most important skill going into companies. And they're gonna expect to be able to use robots within their companies in their daily lives. A swell. So, you know, we have customers today that are rolling out a robot for every person you know. We had Ah, Conoco Phillips on just earlier in our launch, talking about citizen developers, enabling says, developer armies of developers and growing enterprise wide. See, Intel was on as well from Singapore, the large telco. They're doing the exact same thing. So I think you know, I think this is this is this is this is about broad based digital transformation. Everybody participating And what happens is the leading companies to do this, you know, they're going to get the benefit of benefits out of it. It can reinvest that productivity, benefits and data science and analytics and serving customers and in, you know, and and, ah, new product ideas. And so, you know, this is this. You know, automation is going to fuel now the ability for companies to really differentiate and serve their customers better. And it's only needed enterprise wide view on it that you really maximizing. Take Amazon, for example, a great customer during during this prices. You know, they're trying to hire hundreds of thousands of people, right? Help in the fact that in their in their distribution centers elsewhere, this all served demand to help people who like you and I home or ordering things that we need, right? Well, they're use your path robots all throughout their HR hr on boarding HR recruiting HR administration And so helping them has been a big during this prices surge of robots is helping them actually hire workers. You know another example of Schneider Electric and amazing customer of ours. They're bringing their plants, their manufacturing facilities, implants back online faster by using robots to help manage the PPE personal protective equipment in the plant allow people workers to get back to work faster. Right? So what's happening is is, you know in that in those cases is your different examples of robots and different functions, right? In all cases, it's about helping grow a company faster. It's about helping protect workers. It's about helping getting revenue machines back up and running after Kobe is going to be critical to get back to work faster. So I'm I'm really excited about the fact that as people think about automation across the organization, the number of ideas and Aaron opportunities for improvement are are we're just starting to tap that potential. >>Well, this is why I think the vision is so important because you're talking about things that are transformative. Now, as you well know, one of the criticisms of RPS. So you have people, the suppliers and just yeah, we, you know, looking at mundane tasks, just automating mundane tasks like sometimes paving the cow path and say, you're very much aware of that criticism. But if I look at the recent announcements, you're really starting to build out that vision that you just talked about. They're really four takeaways. You sort of extending the core PAP platform, injecting AI end some or and more automation end to end automation really taken that full lifestyles lifecycle systems view and the last one is sort of putting it talks to the robot. For every person that sort of citizen automation, if you will, that sort of encompasses your product announcements. So it wasn't just sort of a point Announcement really is a underscores the platform. I wonder if you could just What do we need to know about you guys? Just that out. >>So we think about how we think about the rolls back to a division of robots person how automation can help different roles. And so this product launch $20 for this large scale launch that you just articulated, um, impacts in a fax and helps many different kinds of new roles Certainly process analysts now who examined processes, passes performance improvements. You know, they're a user of our process mining solution in our past. Find a solution that helps speed on our way. Arpaio engine, no testers and quality engineers. Now they can actually use studio pro and actually used test robots are brand new, and our new test manager is sort of the orchestration and management of test executions. Now they can participate in in leveraged power of robots and what they do as well. And we kind of think about that, you know, kind of across the board in our organization across the platform. They can use tools like you have path insights in Europe. If you're an analyst or your, uh ah. B I, this intelligence person really know what's going on with robots in terms of our wife for my organization and provide that up to the, you know, sea levels in the board of directors in real time. So I think that's that's the big part. Here is we're bringing, and we're helping bring in many, many different kinds of roles different kinds of people. Data scientist. You mentioned AI. Now data scientists can build a model. The models applied to ai fabric an orchestrator. It's drag and drop by our developer in studio, and now you can turn, you know, a a mundane, rules based task right into an experience based ones where a robot can help make a decision right. Based on experience and data, they can tweak and tune that model and data scientists can interact, you know, with the automation is flowing through your path. So I think that's how we think about it, right? You know, one of the great new capabilities, as well as the ability to engage line workers, dispatch out workers If you're a telco or or retail story retail store workers you know the robots can work with humans out in the field. We've got one real large manufacturer with 18,000 drivers in a DST direct store delivery scenario. And you know the ability for them to interact with robots and help them do their job in the field. Our customers better after the list data entry and data manipulation, multiple systems. So I this is this makes us very unique in our vision and in our execution. And again, I don't I have not heard of a single ah example by competitors that has any kind of a vision or articulation to be able to help a company enterprise wide and, you know, with the speed and the and the full, full vision that we have. >>Okay, so you're not worried about downturns. You can't control black swans Anyway, you're not worried about the competition. It feels like you know, you're worried about what you're worried about. You want about growing too fast. Additionally, deploying the the capital that you've raised. What worries you? >>Yeah. You know, we're paranoid or paranoid company, right? And when it comes to the market and and trying to drive, I think we've done a lot to help actually push the rock up the hill in terms of really, really driving our market, building the market, and we want to continue that right and not let up. So there's this kind of desire to never let up, right? Well, we always remind ourselves we must work harder, must work harder. We must work harder. And that's that's That's sort of this this mentality around ourselves, by the smartest people. Hire the smartest people you work with our customers, our customers are priority. Do that with really high excellence and really high sincerity that it comes through and everything that we do, you know, to build a world class operation to be, you know, Daniel DNS. When I first met him, he said, You know, I really want to be the enemy of the great news ecology company that serve customers really well. And it was amazing things for society, and and, you know, we're on that track, but we've got, you know, we're in the in the in the early innings. So, you know, making sure that we also run our business in a way that, um, you know, uh, is ready to be Ah, you know, publicly successful company on being able to raise new sources of capital to fund our ambitions and our ideas. I mean, you saw the number of announcements from our 24 release. It reminded me of an AWS re invent conference, where it's just innovation, innovation, innovation, innovation. And these are very real. They're not made up mythical announcements that some of our competitors do about launching some kind of discovery box doesn't exist, right? These are very real with real customers behind them, and and so you know, just doing that with the same level of tenacity. But being, you know, old, fast, immersed and humble, which are four core culture values along the way and not losing that Azeri grow. That's that's something we talk about maintaining that culture that's super critical to us. >>Everybody's talking about Okay, What What's gonna be permanent? Postpone it. I was just listening to Julie Sweet, CEO of Accenture, and she was saying that, you know, prior to Covic, they had data that showed that the top 25% of companies that have leaned into digital transformation were outperforming. You know, the balance of their peers, and I know question now that the the rest of that base really is going to be focused on automation. Automation is is really going to be one of those things that is high, high priority now and really for the next decade and beyond. So, Bobby, thanks so much for coming on the Cube and supporting us in this in this r p. A drill down. Really appreciate it, >>Dave. It's always a pleasure as always. Great to see you. Thank you. >>Alright. And thank you for watching everybody. Dave Volante. We'll be right back right after this short break. You're watching the cube. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation hey welcome back here writer jeff rick here with the cube we're in our Palo Alto studios you know kind of continuing our leadership coverage reaching out to the community for people that we've got in our community to get their take on you know how they're dealing with the Kovach crisis how they're helping to contribute back to the community to to bring their resources to bear and you know just some general good tips and tricks of getting through these kind of challenging times and we're really excited to have one of my favorite guests he's being used to come on all the time we haven't had them on for three years which I can't believe it sabi Mehta the CEO of true SATA founder to say to obby I checked the record I can't believe it's been three years since we last that down great to see you Jeff there's well first of all it's always a pleasure and I think the only person to blame for that is you Jeff well I will make sure that it doesn't happen again so in just a check-in how's things going with the family the company thank you for asking you know family is great we have I've got two young kids who have become video conferencing experts and they don't teach me the tricks for it which I'm sure is happening a lot of families around the world and the team is great we vent remote at this point almost almost two months ago down and can't complain I think their intellectual property business like you are so it's been a little easier for us to go remote compared to a lot of other businesses in the world and in America but no complaints it'll be very fortunate we are glad that we have a business and a company that can withstand the the economic uncertainty and the family's great I hope the same for the queue family I haven't seen Dave and John and it's good to see you again and I hope all of you guys are helped happy and healthy great I think in we're good so thank you for asking so let's jump into it you know one of the things that I've always loved about you is you know really your sense of culture and this kind of constant reinforcing of culture in your social media posts and the company blog post at true SATA you know celebrating your interns and and you really have a good pulse for that and you know I just I think we may even talked about it before about you know kind of the CEOs and leadership and and social media those that do and that and those that don't and you know I think it's it's probably from any kind of a risk reward trade-off you know I could say something group it versus what am I getting at it but really it's super important and in these times with the distributed workforce that the the importance and value of communicating and culture and touching your people frequently across a lot of different mediums and topic areas is is more important than ever before share with us kind of your strategy why did you figure this out early how have you you know kind of adjusted you know your method of keeping your team up and communicating absolutely like I guess I owe you guys a little bit of gratitude for it which is we launched our company and you know I'm showing a member on the cube it was a social media launch you know if you say that say it like that I think there are two or three things that are very important Jeff and you hit on all of them one is the emphasis on information sharing it becomes more important than times like these and we as as a society value the ability to share a positive conversation of positive perspective and a positive outlook more but since day zero at the seder we've had this philosophy that there are no secrets it is important to be open and transparent both inside and outside the company and that our legacy is going to be defined by what we do for the community and not just what we do for our shareholders and by its very nature the fact that you know I grew up in a different continent now live and call America now a different continent my home I guess I was it's very important for me to stay connected to my roots it is a good memory or reminder that the world is very interconnected unfortunately the pandemic is the is the best or worst example of it in a really weird way but I think it's also a very important point Jeff that I believe we learned early and I hope coming out from this is something that we don't lose the point you made about kindness social media and social networking has a massively in my opinion massively positive binding force for the world at the same time there were certain business models it tried to capitalize on the negative aspects of it you know whether they are the the commercialized versions of slam books or not so nice business models that capitalize on the ability for people to complain I hope that people society and us humans coming out of it learn from people like yourself or you know the small voice that I have on social media or the messages we share and we are kinda in what we do online because the ability to have networks that are viral and can propagate or self propagate is a very positive unifying force and I hope out of this pandemic we all realize the positive nature's of it more than the negative nature's of it because unfortunately as you know that our business models built on the negative forces of social media and I really really hope they're coming out of this are positive voices drown out the negative voices that's great point and and it's a great I want to highlight a quote from one of your blog's again I think you're just a phenomenal communicator and in relationship to what's going on with kovat and and I quote we are fighting fear pain and anxiety as much as we are fighting the virus this is our humble attempt to we'll get into what you guys did to help the thousands of first responders clerks rockstars but I just really want to stick with that kindness theme you know I used to or I still joke right that the greatest smile in technology today is our G from signal FX the guys are gonna throw up a picture of him he's a great guy he looks like everybody's favorite I love that guy but therefore signal effects and actually it's funny signal FX also launched on the cube at big data a big data show I used to say the greatest smile intact is avi Mehta I mean how can I go wrong and and what I when I reached out to you I I do I consciously thought what what more important time do we have than to see people like you with a big smile with the great positive attitude focusing on on the positives and and I just think it's so important and it segues nicely into what we used to talk about it the strata shows and the big data shows all the time everyone wanted to talk about Hadoop and big data you always stress is never about the technology it's about the application of the technology and you focus your company on that very where that laser focus from day one now it's so great to see is we think you know the bad news about kovat a lot of bad news but one of the good news is is you know there's never been as much technology compute horsepower big data analytics smart people like yourself to bring a whole different set of tools to the battle than just building Liberty ships or building playing planes or tanks so you guys have a very aggressive thing that you're doing tell us a little bit about is the kovat active transmission the coat if you will tell us about what that is how did it come to be and what are you hoping to accomplish of course so first of all you're too kind you know thank you so much I think you also were the first people to give me a hard time about my new or Twitter picture I put on and he said what are you doing RV you know you have a good smile come on give me the smile die so thank you you're very kind Jeff I think as I as we as you know and I know I think you've a lot to be thankful for in life and there's no reason why we should not smile no matter what the circumstance we have so much to be thankful for and also I am remiss happy Earth Day you know I'm rocking my green for Earth Day as well as Ramadan Kareem today is the first day of Ramadan and you know I I wish everybody in the world Ramadan Kareem and on that friend right on that trend of how does do we as a community come together when faced with crisis so Court was a very simple thing you know it's I'm thank you for recognizing the hard work of the team that led it it was an idea I came up with it you know in the shower I'm like there are two kinds of people or to your you can we have we as humans have a choice when history is being made which I do believe I do believe history is being made right whether you look at it economically and a economic shock and that we have not felt as humanity since the depression so you look at it socially and again something we haven't seen sin the Spanish blue history is being made in in these times and I think we as humans have a choice we can either be witnesses to it or play our part in helping shape it and coat was our humble tiny attempt to when we look back when history was being made we chose to not just sit on the sidelines but be a part of trying to be part of the solution so all riddled with code was take a small idea I had team gets the entire credit read they ran with it and the idea was there was a lot of data being open sourced around co-ed a lot of work being done around reporting what is happening but nothing was being done around reporting or thinking through using the data to predict what could happen with it and that was code with code we try to make the first code wonder oh that came out almost two weeks ago now when you first contacted us was predicting the spread and the idea around breaking the spread wasn't just saying here is the number of cases a number of deaths and know what to be very off we wanted to provide like you know how firefighters do can we predict where it may go to next at a county by county level so we could create a little bit of a firewall to help it from stop you know have the spread of it to be slower in no ways are we claiming that if you did port you can stop it but if he could create firewalls around it and distribute tests not just in areas and cities and counties where it is you know spiking but look at the areas and counties where it's about to go to so we use a inner inner in-house Network algorithm we call that Orion and we were able to start predicting where the virus is gonna go to we also then quickly realize that this could be an interesting where an extra you know arrow and the quiver in our fight we should also think about where are there green shoots around where can recovery be be helped so before you know the the president email announced this it was surrender serendipitous before the the president came and said I want to start finding the green shoes to open the country we then did quote $2 which we announced a week ago with the green shoots around a true sailor recovery index and the recovery index is looking at its car like a meta algorithm we're looking at the rates of change of the rates of change so if you're seeing the change of the rates of change you know the meta part we're declining we're saying there are early shoots that we if as we plan to reopen our economy in our country these are the counties to look at first that was the second attempt of code and the third attempt we have done is we calling it the odd are we there yet index it got announced yesterday and now - you're the first public announcement of it and the are we there yet index is using the government's definition of the phase 1 phase 2 phase 3 and we are making a prediction on where which are the counties that are ready to be open up and there's good news everywhere in the country but we we are predicting there are 73 different counties that ask for the government's definition of ready to open are ready to open that's all you know we were able to launch the app in five days it is free for all first responders all hospital chains all not-for-profit organizations trying to help the country through this pandemic and poor profit operations who want to use the data to get tests out to get antibodies out and to get you know the clinical trials out so we have made a commitment that we will not charge for code through - for any of those organizations to have the country open are very very small attempt to add another dimension to the fight you know it's data its analytics I'm not a first responder this makes me sleep well at night that I'm at least we're trying to help you know right well just for the true heroes right the true heroes this is our our humble attempt to help them and recognize that their effort should not go to its hobby that that's great because you know there is data and there is analytics and there is you know algorithms and the things that we've developed to help people you know pick they're better next purchase at Amazon or where they gonna watch next on Netflix and it's such a great application no it's funny I just finished a book called ghost Bob and is a story of the cholera epidemic in London in like 1850 something or other about four but what's really interesting at that point in time is they didn't know about waterborne diseases they thought everything kind of went through the air and and it was really a couple of individuals in using data in a new and more importantly mapping different types of datasets on top of it and now this is it's as this map that were they basically figured out where the the pump was that was polluting everybody but it was a great story and you know kind of changing the narrative by using data in a new novel and creative way to get to an answer that they couldn't and you know they're there's so much data out there but then they're so short a date I'm just curious from a data science point of view you know um you know there there aren't enough tests for you know antibodies who's got it there aren't enough tests for just are you sick and then you know we're slowly getting the data on the desk which is changing all the time you know recently announced that the first Bay Area deaths were actually a month were they before they thought they were so as you look at what you're trying to accomplish what are some of the great datasets out there and how are you working around some of the the lack of data in things like you know test results are you kind of organizing pulling that together what would you like to see more of that's why I like talking to you so I missed you you are these good questions of me excellent point I think there are three things I would like to highlight number one it doesn't take your point that you made with the with the plethora of technical advances and this S curve shift that these first spoke at the cube almost eleven years ago to the date now or ten years ago just the idea of you know population level or modeling that cluster computing is finally democratized so everybody can run complicated tests and a unique segment or one and this is the beauty of what we should be doing in the pandemic I'm coming I'm coming I'm quite surprised actually and given the fact we've had this S curve shift where the world calls a combination of cloud computing so on-demand IO and technical resources for processing data and then the on-demand ability to store and run algorithms at massive scale we haven't really combined our forces to predict more you know that the point you made about the the the waterborne pandemic in the eighteen eighteen hundreds we have an ability as humanity right now to actually see history play out rather than write a book about it you know it has a past tense and it's important to do are as follows number one luckily for you and I the cost of computing an algorithm to predict is manageable so I am surprised why the large cloud players haven't come out and said you know what anybody who wants to distribute anything around predictions lay to the pandemic should get cloud resources for free I we are running quote on all three cloud platforms and I'm paying for all of it right that doesn't really make sense but I'm surprised that they haven't really you know joined the debate or contribute to it and said in a way to say let's make compute free for anybody who would like to add a new dimension to our fight against the pandemic number one but the good news is it's available number two there is luckily for us an open data movement you know that was started on the Obama administration and hasn't stopped because you can't stop open movements allows people companies like ours to go leverage know whether it's John Hancock Carnegie Mellon or the new data coming out of you know California universities a lot of those people are opening up the data not every single piece is at the level we would like to see you know it's not zip plus 4 is mostly county level it's available the third innovation is what we have done with code but not it's not an innovation for the world right which is the give get model so we have said we will curate everything is available lie and boo cost anybody is used but they're for purposes and computations you want to enrich it every organization who gives code data will get more out of it so we have enabled a data exchange keep our far-off purple form and the open up the rail exchange that my clients use but you know we've opened up our data exchange part of our software platform and we have open source for this particular case a give get model but the more you give to it the more you get out of there and our first installations this was the first week that we have users of the platform you know the state of Nevada is using it there are no our state in North Carolina is using it already and we're trying to see the first asks for the gift get model to be used but that's the three ways you're trying to address the that's great and and and and so important you know in this again when this whole thing started I couldn't help but think of the Ford plant making airplanes and and Keiser making Liberty ships in in World War two but you know now this is a different battle but we have different tools and to your point luckily we have a lot of the things in place right and we have mobile phones and you know we can do zoom and well you know we can we can talk as we're talking now so I want to shift gears a little bit and just talk about digital transformation right we've been talking about this for ad nauseam and then and then suddenly right there's this light switch moment for people got to go home and work and people got to communicate via via online tools and you know kind of this talk and this slow movement of getting people to work from home kind of a little bit and digital transformation a little bit and data-driven decision making a little bit but now it's a light switch moment and you guys are involved in some really critical industries like healthcare like financial services when you kind of look at this not from a you know kind of business opportunity peer but really more of an opportunity for people to get over the hump and stop you can't push back anymore you have to jump in what are you kind of seeing in the marketplace Howard you know some of your customers dealing with this good bad and ugly there are two towers to start my response to you with using two of my favorite sayings that you know come to mind as we started the pandemic one is you know someone very smart said and I don't know who's been attributed to but a crisis is a terrible thing to waste so I do believe this move to restoring the world back to a natural state where there's not much fossil fuels being burnt and humans are not careful about their footprint but even if it's forced is letting us enjoy the earth in its glory which is interesting and I hope you don't waste an opportunity number one number two Warren Buffett came out and said that it's only when the tide goes out you realize who's swimming naked and this is a culmination of both those phenomenal phrases you know which is one this is the moment I do believe this is something that is deep both in the ability for us to realize the virtuosity of humanity as a society as social species as well as a reality check on what a business model looks like visa vie a presentation that you can put some fancy words on even what has been an 11-year boom cycle and blitzscale your way to disaster you know I have said publicly that this the peak of the cycle was when mr. Hoffman mr. Reid Hoffman wrote the book bit scaling so we should give him a lot of credit for calling the peak in the cycle so what we are seeing is a kind of coming together of those two of those two big trends crises is going to force industry as you've heard me say many for many years now do not just modernize what we have seen happen chef in the last few years or decades is modernization not transformation and they are different is the big difference as you know transformation is taking a business model pulling it apart understanding the economics that drive it and then not even reassembling it recreating how you can either recapture that value or recreate that value completely differently or by the way blow up the value create even more value that hasn't happened yet digital transformation you know data and analytics AI cloud have been modernizing trends for the last ten years not transformative trends in fact I've also gone and said publicly that today the very definition of technology transformation is run a sequel engine in the cloud and you get a big check off as a technology organization saying I'm good I've transformed how I look at data analytics I'm doing what I was doing on Prem in the cloud there's still sequel in the cloud you know there's a big a very successful company it has made a businessman out of it you don't need to talk about the company today but I think this becomes that moment where those business models truly truly get a chance to transform number one number two I think there's going to be less on the industry side on the new company side I think the the error of anointing winners by saying grow at all cost economics don't matter is fundamentally over I believe that the peak of that was the book let's called blitzscaling you know the markets always follow the peaks you know little later but you and I in our lifetimes will see the return to fundamentals fundamentals as you know never go out of fashion Jeff whether it's good conversations whether it's human values or its economic models if you do not have a par to being a profitable contributing member of society whether that is running a good balance sheet individually and not driven by debt or running a good balance sheet as a company you know we call it financial jurisprudence financial jurisprudence never goes out of fashion and the fact that even men we became the mythical animal which is not the point that we became a unicorn we were a profitable company three years ago and two years ago and four years ago and today and will end this year as a profitable company I think it's a very very nice moment for the world to realize that within the realm of digital transformation even the new companies that can leverage and push that trend forward can build profitable business models from it and if you don't it doesn't matter if you have a billion users as my economic professor told me selling a watermelon that you buy for a dollar or fifty cents even if you sell that a billion times you cannot make it up in volume I think those are two things that will fundamentally change the trend from modernization the transformation it is coming and this will be the moment when we look back and when you write a book about it that people say you know what now Jeff called it and now and the cry and the pandemic is what drove the economic jurisprudence as much as the social jurisprudence obvious on so many things here we can we're gonna be we're gonna go Joe Rogan we're gonna be here for four hours so hopefully hopefully you're in a comfortable chair but uh-huh but I don't I don't sit anymore I love standing on a DD the stand-up desk but I do the start of my version of your watermelon story was you know I dad a couple of you know kind of high-growth spend a lot of money raised a lot of money startups back in the day and I just know finally we were working so hard I'm Michael why don't we just go up to the street and sell dollars for 90 cents with a card table and a comfy chair maybe some iced tea and we'll drive revenue like there's nobody's business and lose less money than we're losing now not have to work so hard I mean it's so interesting I think you said everyone's kind of Punt you know kind of this pump the brakes moment as well growth at the ethic at the cost of everything else right there used to be a great concept called triple-line accounting right which is not just shareholder value to this to the sacrifice of everything else but also your customers and your employees and-and-and your community and being a good steward and a good participant in what's going on and I think that a lot of that got lost another you know to your point about pumping the brakes and the in the environment I mean we've been kind of entertaining on the oil side watching an unprecedented supply shock followed literally within days by an unprecedented demand shock but but the fact now that when everyone's not driving to work at 9:00 in the morning we actually have a lot more infrastructure than we thought and and you know kind of goes back to the old mob capacity planning issue but why are all these technology workers driving to work every morning at nine o'clock it means one thing if you're a service provider or you got to go work at a restaurant or you're you're carrying a truck full of tools but for people that just go sit on a laptop all day makes absolutely no sense and and I'd love your point that people are now you know seeing things a little bit slowed down you know that you can hear birds chirp you're not just stuck in traffic and into your point on the digital transformation right I mean there's been revolution and evolution and revolution people get killed and you know the fact that digital is not the same as physical but it's different had Ben Nelson on talking about the changes in education he had a great quote I've been using it for weeks now right that a car is not a is not a mechanical horse right it's really an opportunity to rethink the you know rethink the objective and design a new solution so it is a really historical moment I think it is it's real interesting that we're all going through it together as well right it's not like there quake in 89 or I was in Mount st. Helens and that blew up in in 1980 where you had kind of a population that was involved in the event now it's a global thing where were you in March 20 20 and we've all gone through this indeed together so hopefully it is a little bit of a more of a unifying factor in kind of the final thought since we're referencing great books and authors and quotes right as you've all know Harare and sapiens talked about what is culture right cultures is basically it's it's a narrative that we all have bought into it I find it so ironic that in the year 2020 that we always joke is 20/20 hindsight we quickly found out that everything we thought was suddenly wasn't and the fact that the global narrative changed literally within days you know really a lot of spearhead is right here in Santa Clara County with with dr. Sarah Cody shutting down groups of more than 150 people which is about four days before they went to the full shutdown it is a really interesting time but as you said you know if you're fortunate enough as we are to you know have a few bucks in the bank and have a business that can be digital which you can if you're in the sports business or the travel business the hotel business and restaurant business a lot of a lot of a lot of not not good stuff happening there but for those of us that can it is an opportunity to do this nice you know kind of a reset and use the powers that we've developed for recommendation engines for really a much more power but good for good and you're doing a lot more stuff too right with banking and in in healthcare telemedicine is one of my favorite things right we've been talking about telemedicine and electronic medicine for now well guess what now you have to cuz the hospitals are over are overflowing Jeff to your point three stories and you know then at some point I know you have you I will let you go you can let me go I can talk to you for four hours I can talk to you for but days my friend you know the three stories that there have been very relevant to me through this crisis I know one is first I think I guess in a way all are personal but the first one you know that I always like to remind people on there were business models built around allowing people to complain online and then using that as almost like a a stick to find a way to commercialize it and I look at that all of our friends I'm sure you have friends have lots of friend the restaurant is big and how much they are struggling right they are honest working the hardest thing to do in life as I've been told and I've witnessed through my friends is to run a restaurant the hours the effort you put into it making sure that what you produce this is not just edible but it's good quality is enjoyed by people is sanitary is the hard thing to do and there was yet there were all of these people you know who would not find in their heart and their minds for two seconds to go post a review if something wasn't right and be brutal in those reviews and if they were the same people were to look back now and think about how they assort the same souls then anything to be supportive for our restaurant workers you know it's easy to go and slam them online but this is our chance to let a part of the industry that we all depend on food right critical to humanity's success what have we done to support them as easy as it was for us to complain about them what have we done to support them and I truly hope and I believe they're coming out of it those business models don't work anymore and before we are ready to go on and online on our phones and complain about well it took time for the bread to come to my table we think twice how hard are they working right number one that's my first story I really hope you do tell me about that my second story is to your have you chained to baby with Mark my kids I'm sure as your kids get up every morning get dressed and launch you know their online version of a classroom do you think when they enter the workforce or when they go to college you and me are going to try and convince them to get in a oil burning combustion engine but by the way can't have current crash and breakdown and impact your health impact the environment and show up to work and they'll say what do you talk about are you talking about I can be effective I can learn virtually why can't I contribute virtually so I think there'll be a generation of the next class of you know contribute to society who are now raised to live in an environment where the choice of making sure we preserve the planet and yet contribute towards the growth of it is no longer a binary choice both can be done so I completely agree with you we have fundamentally changed how our kids when they grew up will go to work and contribute right my third story is the thing you said about how many industries are suffering we have clients you know in the we have health care customers we have banking customers you know we have whoever paying the bills like we are are doing everything they can to do right by society and then we have customers in the industry of travel hospitality and one of my most humbling moments Jeff there's one of the no sea level executives sent us an email early in this in this crisis and said this is a moment where a strong David can help AV Goliath and just reading that email had me very emotional because they're not very many moments that we get as corporations as businesses where we can be there for our customers when they ask us to be their father and if we as companies and help our customers our clients who area today are flying people are feeding people are taking care of their health and they're well if V in this moment and be there for them we we don't forget those moments you know those as humans have long-term memories right that was one of the kindest gentlest reminders to me that what was more important to me my co-founder Richard you know my leadership team every single person at Reseda that have tried very hard to build automations because as an automation company to automate complex human process so we can make humans do higher order activities in the moment when our customers asked us to contribute and be there for them I said yes they said yes you said yes and I hope I hope people don't forget that that unicorns aren't important there are mythical animals there's nothing all about profits there's nothing mythical about fortress balance sheet and there's nothing mythical about a strong business model that is built for sustainable growth not good at all cost and those are my three stories that you know bring me a lot of lot of calm in this tremendous moment of strife and and in the piece that wraps up all those is ultimately it's about relationships right people don't do business I mean companies don't do business with companies people do business with people and it's those relationships and and in strong relationships through the bad times which really set us up for when things start to come back I me as always it's I'm not gonna let it be three years to the next time I hear me pounding on your door great to catch up you know love to love to watch really your your culture building and your community engagement good luck I mean great success on the company but really that's one thing I think you really do a phenomenal job of just keeping this positive drumbeat you always have you always will and really appreciate you taking some time on a Friday to sit down with us well first of all thank you I wish I could tell you I just up to you but we celebrate formal Fridays that to Seder and that's what this is all so I want to end on a good on a positive bit of news I was gonna give you a demo of it but if you want to go to our website and look at what everything we're doing we have a survival kit around a data survival kit around kovat how am I using buzzwords you know a is let's not use that buzzword right now but in your in your lovely state but on my favorite places on the planet when we ran the algorithm on who is ready as per the government definition of opening up we have five counties that are ready to be open you know between Santa Clara to LA Sacramento Kern and San Francisco the metrics today the data today with our algorithm there are meta algorithm is saying that those five counties those five regions look like I've done a lot of positive activities if the country was to open under all the right circumstances those five look you know the first as we were men at on cream happy Earth Day a pleasure to see you so good to know your family is doing well and I hope we see we talk to each other soon thanks AVI great conversation with avi Mehta terrific guy thanks for watching everybody stay safe have a good weekend Jeff Rick checking out from the cube [Music]

>> David: It's the cube covering the virtual Vertica Big Data conference 2020 brought to you by Vertica. Hello, buddy, welcome to this special digital presentation of the cube. We're tracking the Vertica virtual Big Data conferences, the cubes. I think fifth year doing the BDC. We've been to every big data conference that they've held and really excited to be helping with the digital component here in these interesting times. Ron Cormier is here, Principal database engineer at the Trade Desk. Ron, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Hi, David, my pleasure, good to see you as well. >> So we're talking a little bit about your background you got, you're basically a Vertica and database guru, but tell us about your role at Trade Desk and then I want to get into a little bit about what Trade Desk does. >> Sure, so I'm a principal database engineer at the Trade Desk. The Trade Desk was one of my customers when I was working with Hp, at HP, as a member of the Vertica team, and I joined the Trade Desk in early 2016. And since then, I've been working on building out their Vertica capabilities and expanding the data warehouse footprint and as ever growing database technology, data volume environment. >> And the Trade Desk is an ad tech firm and you are specializing in real time ad serving and pricing. And I guess real time you know, people talk about real time a lot we define real time as before you lose the customer. Maybe you can talk a little bit about you know, the Trade Desk in the business and maybe how you define real time. >> Totally, so to give everybody kind of a frame of reference. Anytime you pull up your phone or your laptop and you go to a website or you use some app and you see an ad what's happening behind the scenes is an auction is taking place. And people are bidding on the privilege to show you an ad. And across the open Internet, this happens seven to 13 million times per second. And so the ads, the whole auction dynamic and the display of the ad needs to happen really fast. So that's about as real time as it gets outside of high frequency trading, as far as I'm aware. So we put the Trade Desk participates in those auctions, we bid on behalf of our customers, which are ad agencies, and the agencies represent brands so the agencies are the madman companies of the world and they have brands that under their guidance, and so they give us budget to spend, to place the ads and to display them and once the ads get displayed, so we bid on the hundreds of thousands of auctions per second. Once we make those bids, anytime we do make a bid some data flows into our data platform, which is powered by Vertica. And, so we're getting hundreds of thousands of events per second. We have other events that flow into Vertica as well. And we clean them up, we aggregate them, and then we run reports on the data. And we run about 40,000 reports per day on behalf of our customers. The reports aren't as real time as I was talking about earlier, they're more batch oriented. Our customers like to see big chunks of time, like a whole day or a whole week or a whole month on a single report. So we wait for that time period to complete and then we run the reports on the results. >> So you you have one of the largest commercial infrastructures, in the Big Data sphere. Paint a picture for us. I understand you got a couple of like 320 node clusters we're talking about petabytes of data. But describe what your environment looks like. >> Sure, so like I said, we've been very good customers for a while. And we started out with with a bunch of enterprise clusters. So the Enterprise Mode is the traditional Vertica deployment where the compute and the storage is tightly coupled all raid arrays on the servers. And we had four of those and we're doing okay, but our volumes are ever increasing, we wanted to store more data. And we wanted to run more reports in a shorter period of time, was to keep pushing. And so we had these four clusters and then we started talking with Vertica about Eon mode, and that's Vertica separation of compute and storage where you get the compute and the storage can be scaled independently, we can add storage without adding compute or vice versa or we can add both, like. So that was something that we were very interested in for a couple reasons. One, our enterprise clusters, we're running out of disk, like when adding disk is expensive. In Enterprise Mode, it's kind of a pain, you got to add, compute at the same time, so you kind of end up in an unbalanced place. So beyond mode that problem gets a lot better. We can add disk, infinite disk because it's backed by S3. And we can add compute really easy to scale, the number of things that we run in parallel concurrency, just add a sub cluster. So they are two US East and US west of Amazon, so reasonably diverse. And and the real benefit is that they can, we can stop nodes when we don't need them. Our workload is fairly lumpy, I call it. Like we, after the day completes, we do the ingest, we do the aggregation for ingesting and aggregating all day, but the final hour, so it needs to be completed. And then once that's done, then the number of reports that we need to run spikes up, it goes really high. And we run those reports, we spin up a bunch of extra compute on the fly, run those reports and then spin them down. And we don't have to pay for that, for the rest of the day. So Eon has been a nice Boone for us for both those reasons. >> I'd love to explore you on little bit more. I mean, it's relatively new, I think 2018 Vertica announced Eon mode, so it's only been out there a couple years. So I'm curious for the folks that haven't moved the Eon mode, can you which presumably they want to for the same reasons that you mentioned why by the stories and chunks when you're on Storage if you don't have to, what were some of the challenges that you had to, that you faced in going to Eon mode? What kind of things did you have to prepare for? Were there any out of scope expectations? Can you share that experience with us? >> Sure, so we were an early adopter. We participated in the beta program. I mean, we, I think it's fair to say we actually drove the requirements and a lot of ways because we approached Vertica early on. So the challenges were what you'd expect any early adopter to be going through. The sort of getting things working as expected. I mean, there's a number of cases, which I could touch upon, like, we found an efficiency in the way that it accesses the data on S3 and it was accessing the data too frequently, which ended up was just expensive. So our S3 bill went up pretty significantly for a couple of months. So that was a challenge, but we worked through that another was that we recently made huge strides in with Vertica was the ability to stop and start nodes and not have to start them very quickly. And when they start to not interfere with any running queries, so when we create, when we want to spin up a bunch to compute, there was a point in time when it would break certain queries that were already running. So that that was a challenge. But again, the very good team has been quite responsive to solving these issues and now that's behind us. In terms of those who need to get started, there's or looking to get started. there's a number of things to think about. Off the top of my head there's sort of new configuration items that you'll want to think about, like how instance type. So certainly the Amazon has a variety of instances and its important to consider one of Vertica's architectural advantages in these areas Vertica has this caching layer on the instances themselves. And what that does is if we can keep the data in cache, what we've found is that the performance is basically the same performance of Enterprise Mode. So having a good size cast when needed, can be a little worrying. So we went with the I three instance types, which have a lot of local NVME storage that we can, so we can cache data and get good performance. That's one thing to think about. The number of nodes, the instance type, certainly the number of shards is a sort of technical item that needs to be considered. It's how the data gets, its distributed. It's sort of a layer on top of the segmentation that some Vertica engineers will be familiar with. And probably I mean, the, one of the big things that one needs to consider is how to get data in the database. So if you have an existing database, there's no sort of nice tool yet to suck all the data into an Eon database. And so I think they're working on that. But we're at the point we got there. We had to, we exported all our data out of enterprise cluster as cache dumped it out to S3 and then we had the Eon cluster to suck that data. >> So awesome advice. Thank you for sharing that with the community. So but at the end of the day, so it sounds like you had some learning to do some tweaking to do and obviously how to get the data in. At the end of the day, was it worth it? What was the business impact? >> Yeah, it definitely was worth it for us. I mean, so right now, we have four times the data in our Eon cluster that we have in our enterprise clusters. We still run some enterprise clusters. We started with four at the peak. Now we're down to two. So we have the two young clusters. So it's been, I think our business would say it's been a huge win, like we're doing things that we really never could have done before, like for accessing the data on enterprise would have been really difficult. It would have required non trivial engineering to do things like daisy chaining clusters together, and then how to aggregate data across clusters, which would, again, non trivial. So we have all the data we want, we can continue to grow data, where running reports on seasonality. So our customers can compare their campaigns last year versus this year, which is something we just haven't been able to do in the past. We've expanded that. So we grew the data vertically, we've expanded the data horizontally as well. So we were adding columns to our aggregates. We are, in reaching the data much more than we have in the past. So while we still have enterprise kicking around, I'd say our clusters are doing the majority of the heavy lifting. >> And the cloud was part of the enablement, here, particularly with scale, is that right? And are you running certain... >> Definitely. >> And you are running on prem as well, or are you in a hybrid mode? Or is it all AWS? >> Great question, so yeah. When I've been speaking about enterprise, I've been referring to on prem. So we have a physical machines in data centers. So yeah, we are running a hybrid now and I mean, and so it's really hard to get like an apples to apples direct comparison of enterprise on prem versus Eon in the cloud. One thing that I touched upon in my presentation is it would require, if I try to get apples to apples, And I think about how I would run the entire workload on enterprise or on Eon, I had to run the entire thing, we want both, I tried to think about how many cores, we would need CPU cores to do that. And basically, it would be about the same number of cores, I think, for enterprise on prime versus Eon in the cloud. However, Eon nodes only need to be running half the course only need to be running about six hours out of the day. So the other the other 18 hours I can shut them down and not be paying for them, mostly. >> Interesting, okay, and so, I got to ask you, I mean, notwithstanding the fact that you've got a lot invested in Vertica, and get a lot of experience there. A lot of you know, emerging cloud databases. Did you look, I mean, you know, a lot about database, not just Vertica, your database guru in many areas, you know, traditional RDBMS, as well as MPP new cloud databases. What is it about Vertica that works for you in this specific sweet spot that you've chosen? What's really the difference there? >> Yeah, so I think the key differences is the maturity. There are a number, I am familiar with another, a number of other database platforms in the cloud and otherwise, column stores specifically, that don't have the maturity that we're used to and we need at our scale. So being able to specify alternate projections, so different sort orders on my data is huge. And, there's other platforms where we don't have that capability. And so the, Vertica is, of course, the original column store and they've had time to build up a lead in terms of their maturity and features and I think that other other column stores cloud, otherwise are playing a little bit of catch up in that regard. Of course, Vertica is playing catch up on the cloud side. But if I had to pick whether I wanted to write a column store, first graph from scratch, or use a defined file system, like a cloud file system from scratch, I'd probably think it would be easier to write the cloud file system. The column store is where the real smarts are. >> Interesting, let's talk a little bit about some of the challenges you have in reporting. You have a very dynamic nature of reporting, like I said, your clients want to they want to a time series, they just don't want to snap snapshot of a slice. But at the same time, your reporting is probably pretty lumpy, a very dynamic, you know, demand curve. So first of all, is that accurate? Can you describe that sort of dynamic, dynamism and how are you handling that? >> Yep, that's exactly right. It is lumpy. And that's the exact word that I use. So like, at the end of the UTC day, when UTC midnight rolls around, that's we do the final ingest the final aggregate and then the queue for the number of reports that need to run spikes. So the majority of those 40,000 reports that we run per day are run in the four to six hours after that spikes up. And so that's when we need to have all the compute come online. And that's what helps us answer all those queries as fast as possible. And that's a big reason why Eon is advantage for us because the rest of the day we kind of don't necessarily need all that compute and we can shut it down and not pay for it. >> So Ron, I wonder if you could share with us just sort of the wrap here, where you want to take this you're obviously very close to Vertica. Are you driving them in a heart and Eon mode, you mentioned before you'd like, you'd have the ability to load data into Eon mode would have been nice for you, I guess that you're kind of over that hump. But what are the kinds of things, If Column Mahoney is here in the room, what are you telling him that you want the team, the engineering team at Vertica to work on that would make your life better? >> I think the things that need the most attention sort of near term is just the smoothing out some of the edges in terms of making it a little bit more seamless in terms of the cloud aspects to it. So our goal is to be able to start instances and have them join the cluster in less than five minutes. We're not quite there yet. If you look at some of the other cloud database platforms, they're beating that handle it so I know the team is working on that. Some of the other things are the control. Like I mentioned, while we like control in the column store, we also want control on the cloud side of things in terms of being able to dedicate cluster, some clusters specific. We can pin workloads against a specific sub cluster and take advantage of the cast that's over there. We can say, okay, this resource pool. I mean, the sub cluster is a new concept, relatively new concept for Vertica. So being able to have control of many things at sub cluster level, resource pools, configuration parameters, and so on. >> Yeah, so I mean, I personally have always been impressed with Vertica. And their ability to sort of ride the wave adopt new trends. I mean, they do have a robust stack. It's been, you know, been 10 plus years around. They certainly embraced to do, the embracing machine learning, we've been talking about the cloud. So I actually have a lot of confidence to them, especially when you compare it to other sort of mid last decade MPP column stores that came out, you know, Vertica is one of the few remaining certainly as an independent brand. So I think that speaks the team there and the engineering culture. But give your final word. Just final thoughts on your role the company Vertica wherever you want to take it. >> Yeah, no, I mean, we're really appreciative and we value the partners that we have and so I think it's been a win win, like our volumes are, like I know that we have some data that got pulled into their test suite. So I think it's been a win win for both sides and it'll be a win for other Vertica customers and prospects, knowing that they're working with some of the highest volume, velocity variety data that (mumbles) >> Well, Ron, thanks for coming on. I wish we could have met face to face at the the Encore in Boston. I think next year we'll be able to do that. But I appreciate that technology allows us to have these remote conversations. Stay safe, all the best to you and your family. And thanks again. >> My pleasure, David, good speaking with you. >> And thank you for watching everybody, we're covering this is the Cubes coverage of the Vertica virtual Big Data conference. I'm Dave volante. We'll be right back right after this short break. (soft music)