>>Hello and welcome to the AWS partners showcase season one, episode two. I'm your host of the cube John ferry. We're here with two great guests who John Kumar, CEO of and Sabina Joseph, the general manager of AWS. Welcome to the show. Welcome to welcome to the cube, >>John. Good to see you >>Again. Great to see both of you both cube. Alumna's great to see how the businesses is going, going very well. Cloud scale, continuing to dominate Columbia is doing extremely well. Tell us more about what's going on in Columbia. What's your mission? What kinds of use cases are you seeing? Napa John, that's helping you guys keep your growth trajectory and solve your customer problems. >>Yeah. Firstly, thank you, John. Thank you, Sabina. Great to be here is a backup as a service platform. That's built natively on AWS for AWS, and we do support other use cases beyond AWS. But our primary mission is to basically deliver, you know, a ransomware data protection solution, you know, on AWS for AWS customers. Right? So if we think about it, you know, one of the things that's, you know, typically holding back any company to put mission critical workloads on a fantastic platform, a public cloud platform like AWS is to make sure that the data is protected in the event of any attack. And it's also done with extreme amount of simplicity, right? So that nobody is doing the heavy lift of doing backup themselves, right? So that's what really drew me or provides. It's a service. It's a turnkey service that provides, you know, data protection on AWS, whatever. >>Well, you're a frequent cube alumni. We're always talking about the importance of that, but I want to ask you this year more than ever, you're seeing it at the center of the conversation built in from day one, you're seeing a lot more threats, certainly mentioned ransomware and more there's more and more online attacks that's impacting this particular area more than ever before. Can you comment on what your focus has been this year around that? >>Yeah, I see it. If you think about tumor's evolution, our primary mission has been to go and protect every data source, but guess what? Right with more and more move to the public cloud and you look just AWS is journey and that pioneer in public cloud going from, you know, whatever 3 billion in revenues, 10 years ago to north of 70 billion run rate today, there's so much of data that is in the public cloud and the, and the most important thing that customers need is they want to free themselves from going and protecting this data themselves. Right? And, and there's a lot of scale in these environments, right? If you look at customers running hundreds of thousands of AWS accounts across every region on AWS, and if you give them that kind of flexibility and that kind of scale, what they want is give me a turnkey solution that just allows me to go and protect all of these workloads running across all of these regions in a service that takes the data out of my accounts separately in an air gap fashion, right. And that's really what we basically provide. And that's what we focused on over the last 12 months. Right? So if you look at what we have done is we've gone after every important service on AWS TC to EBS RDS, S3, dynamo, sequel databases, and other databases running on top of BC too. So now that becomes the comprehensive set of things that somebody needs to use to really deliver an application on top of the public cloud. And that's where we want for, >>And the growth has been there and the results on Amazon because of the refactoring has been huge. Can you share any examples of some successes that you've had with, with the AWS refactoring and all that good stuff going on? >>Yeah. I mean, I think that what we have seen is, you know, customers that basically told us that before you guys existed, we had to go and build these things ourselves, right. Again, you know, they had all the, the, the blocks to go and do it themselves, but it was so much of a heavy lift to go and do it themselves. And again, they didn't want to be in a, you know, in that business. So, so what we have done essentially for, and we have, you know, we have some joint customers at a pretty massive scale that basically have said that, okay, let me just use your solution to protect my critical assets. Like, you know, things, you know, sitting in S3 and really, you know, we'll use gloomy as a, as a >>Yeah, I think that's a great example of the refactoring Sabina. Gotta, I gotta ask you, you obviously you're at the center of this. You have your hand on the wheel of the partnerships and all the innovators out there. The growth of AWS just has been spectacular because there's value being created. Again, companies are refactoring their business on the cloud and you're at the center of it. So talk about the partnership with Clooney. Can you tell us how it all started and where it's going? >>Yeah, thanks for having me here, John, and good to see you again, Fujian, if I'm not mistaken for John, we met each other at the San Francisco summit, the AWS San Francisco summit, actually I believe it was in 2016 or 2017. You can correct me if I'm wrong here, but yes, I think so. It was, it was in the 8% a month of April. I still remember it. And that's when, you know, you kind of mentioned to me about and this modern backup as a service solution that you were creating, you're still in stealth mode. So you couldn't talk a lot about it. And B started to engage deeply on the partnership, right from 2017. And initially we were kind of focused around helping Colombia build a solution using our well-architected review. And then as soon as we all came out of stealth mode, we started to engage more deeply around deeper integrations and also on go to market activities. >>As you know, AWS has a very prescriptive approach to our partnerships. So we started to work with around the five pillars of security, reliability, cost optimization, performance, and operational excellence to really help them tune the solution on AWS. And we also started to engage with our service teams and I have to thank Paul John and his team here. They really embraced those deeper and broader integrations, many services that Pooja mentioned, but also specifically want to mention S3 EBS. And our Columbia was also a launch partner for AWS outpost when AWS in fact, launched outpost. So I want to kind of commend CLU, CLU MEO, and the entire team kind of embracing this technology and innovation and this modern backup as a service approach. And also also embracing how we want to focus on the five key pillars that I mentioned. >>And that's a great example of success when you ride the wave, which I talk about the ACLU, Colombia trends in the data protection, because one of the things that you pointed out earlier is the ransomware. Okay. That's a big one, right? That's a big, hot area. How, how is the cloud, first of all, how is that going? And then how has the cloud equation changed the ransomware defense and protection piece of it? >>Yeah. Now I just, I wonder I had a little bit on what Sabina mentioned before I answered the question, John, if you don't mind. Sure. I think that collaboration is where is the reason why we are here today, right? Like if you think about it, like we were the first design partners to go and build, you know, the EBS direct API, right. And we work closely with the EBS teams, not just for the API, but the cost structure of it. How would somebody like us use it? So we are at the bleeding edge of some of these services that we are using and that has enabled us, you know, to be where we are today. So again, thank you very much to be enough for this fantastic partnership. And again, there's so much to go and do to really go and nail this in a, in a, in a, in a great way on, on the public cloud. >>So now coming back to your question, John, you know, fundamentally, if you see right, you know, what happened is when, when, when customers move to the public cloud, you know, right there, you know, the ease of use with which, you know, AWS provides these services, right? And the consumption of these services actually drives some amazing behavior, right? Where people actually want to go and build, build, build, and build. But then it comes a time where somebody comes in and says, okay, you know, are you compliant? Right. You know, do you have the right compliance in place? You have all these accounts that you have, but what is running in each of these accounts, you have visibility in those accounts. And are these accounts that the data in these accounts is this gap, right? This is getting air gap in the same region, or does it need to be across regions? >>Right. You know, I'm in the east, do I need to, you know, have an air gap in the west and so on and so forth. Right? So all of these, you know, confluence of all these things come in and by the, all these problems existed in on-premise world, they get translated in, in the public cloud, where do I need to replicate my data, doing it to back it up? Do I need air gapped in a, like an on-prem world? You had a data domain of plans, which was separate from your primary storage for a reason, same similar something similar now needs to happen here for compliance reasons and for ransomware reason. So a lot of parallels here is just that here we are, it almost feels like, you know, as they say, right, the more things changed. The more they remain the same. That's what it is in the public cloud again. >>Well, that's a good point. I mean, let's take that example of on premises versus the cloud. Also, the clouds got more scale too, by the way. So now you've got regions, this is a common problem that customers are having, you can build your own and, or use solutions, but if you don't get ahead of it, the compliance question can bite you in the, you know what, because you then got to go back and retrofit everything. So, so that's kind of what I hear a lot on my end is like, okay, I want to be compliant from day one. I want to have an answer when asked, I don't want to have to go to old techniques that don't fit the cloud. That comes up a lot. What's your answer to that? >>Yeah, no, no. We were pretty much right. I think it's like, you know, when it, when it comes to compliance and all of these things, you know, people at the end of the day are looking for that same foundation of, of things. The same questions are asked for an encryption. You know, you know, I is my data where it needs to be when it needs to be right. What is my recovery point? Objective? What is my recovery time objective? All of these things basically come together. And now, as you said, it's just the scale that you're dealing is, is extremely different in the cloud and the, and the services, right? The easier it is that, you know, it is to use these services. And especially what AWS does, it makes it so easy. So compelling that same ease of use needs to get translated with a SAS service, like what we are doing with data protection, right? That that ease of use is very important. You have to preserve that sanctity >>Sabina. Let's get back to you. You mentioned earlier about the design partner, that benefits for Colombia. Now let's take it to the next level. As customers really realize they have a problem, they need solutions and you're on the AWS side. So you gotta have the answers for the customers. You've got to put people together, make things work. There's a variety of things that you guys offer. What are some of the different facets of the ISV or the partner programs that you offer to partners like Clooney, you know, that they can benefit from? >>Absolutely John, we believe in a win-win approach to the partnerships because that's what makes partnerships durable over time. We're always striving to do better here. And we continue to broaden our investments. As you know, John, the AWS management team, right from Adam Phillipsky, our CEO down firmly believe that partners are critical to our success, our longterm success, and as partners like CLU MEO work to lean in with us with more investment resources, our technology innovation. We also ensure that we are doing our part by providing value back to Cleo about a few years ago, as you might recall, right. We really did a lot of investment in our sales team on the AWS side. Well, one of the tanks me and also our partners observed is while we were making investments in the AWS sales team, I don't think we were doing a great job at helping our partners with reaching out to those customers. >>What we call as co-sale and partners gave us feedback on this. We are very partner and customer feedback driven, and we introduced in fact, a new role called the ISP success manager, ISS, who are basically embedded in our field. And they work with partners to help them close opportunities. And also net new opportunities are we've also in 2020. I believe that re-invent, we launched the ISB accelerate program whereby we offer incentives to the AWS field team to work with our partners to close existing opportunities and also bring in net new opportunities. So all of this has led to closer collaboration in the field between both our field teams, Muir's field team and our field team, but also accelerated mutual customer wins. I'm not saying that we are doing everything great. We still have a long ways to go. And we are constantly getting feedback from cluneal and also some of our other key partners, and we'll continue to get better at it. But I think the role of the ISV success manager and also the ISP accelerate program has been key to bringing in cold cell success. >>Well, John, what's your take on, is this a good partnership for you? I mean, see, the wave of Vegas has got the growth numbers. You mentioned that, but from a partnership standpoint, you're closing business, they got scale. Is it working? How do you organize your company to take advantage of these benefits? Can you share your thoughts? >>Absolutely not. We have embraced the ecosystem wholeheartedly 100%, but if you think about it, what we have done is look at our offering on AWS marketplace. There's an example, right? We are the only company I would say in our domain, obviously that routes our entire business through AWS marketplace. Whether obviously we get a lot of organic benefit from AWS marketplace, people go and search for a solution and from your shows up, and obviously they go and onboard self onboard themselves, and guess what? We let them self onboard themselves. And we rely on AWS's billing automatically. So you don't need to talk to us. You can just get billed automatically in your AWS bill and you get your data protection solution. Or if you directly reached out to us, guess what we do. We actually route you through AWS marketplace. All the onboarding is just to one place and it's a fantastic experience. >>So we have gone like all in, on that experience and completely like, you know, internalized that that's the right way to do things. And of course, thanks to, you know, Sabina's team and the marketplace team to create that platform so that we could actually plug it into it. But that's the kind of benefits that we have that we have, you know, taken advantage of a DWI. That's one example, another example that Sabina mentioned, right, which is the whole ACE program. We put a ton of registrations on AIS and with all the wins that we get on AWS, they could broadcast it to the sellers. So that creates its own vicious cycle in terms of more coming into the pipeline and more closing in. So, so these are just two small examples, but there's other examples that we look at our recent press release, where AWS, you know, when we, when we launched yesterday data protection and backup, the GM of AWSs three supported us in the press release. So there's things like that, that it's a, it's a fantastic collaboration. That's working really well for our joint customers. Sorry. >>And tell us something about the partnership between 80 of us, including, you know, that people might not be aware of some of the things that Poojan said that they're different out there that, that are, co-selling go marketing, that you guys offer people you guys work together on. >>Yeah. The, the ISV accelerate program that was created, it was really created with partners like Klunier in mind, our SAS partners. I think that that is something very, very unique between our partnership and, you know, I, I want to double click on what Poojan said, which is riding their opportunities through marketplace, right? All of their opportunities. That is something pretty unique. They understand the richness of the platform and also how customers are procuring software today in this world. And they've embraced that. And we really appreciate that. And I want to say, you know, another thing about Qumulo is they're all in on AWS, which is another unique thing. There are not a lot of, I would say all in partnerships in my world and I manage infrastructure, business apps, applications, and industry partnerships from the Americas globally. And all of those things are very, very unique in our partnership, which has led to success. Right. We started very, very early stage when Columbia was in stealth mode in 2017 and look where we've come today. And it's really kudos to Paul, John and his entire team for believing in the partnership for leaning in with us and for placing that trust with us. >>Awesome. Pooja, any final words you'd like to share for folks out there about the conversation and what's going on in Columbia? >>Yeah, no, absolutely. You know, as I said, I think we have been fortunate to be very early adopters of all these technologies and go and really build what a true cloud native solution has to be. Right. And, and again, right, you know, this is what customers are really looking for. And people are looking for, you know, at least on the data protection side, you know, ransomware air gap solution, people are looking for a solution natively built on the cloud because that's the only way a solution can deliver something at the scale and the cost structure that is needed to have, you know, a data protection solution in the public cloud. So, so this has been just a fantastic thing end to end, you know, for us overall. And we really look forward to, you know, going, you know, doing much more with AWS as we essentially go and scale, >>I have to ask, but before we, before we go, cause you're the CEO of the company and founder having all that backend infrastructure from Amazon, just on the resources, great. It creates a market for your product, but also the sales piece, you know, they got the marketplace, you mentioned, that's a big expense that you don't have to carry, you know, and you get revenue and top line. I mean, that's an impact for startups out there and growing companies. That's a pretty big deal. What's your, what's your advice to folks out there who are trying to think about the buy versus use the leverage of the, of the marketplace, which is, which is at large scale, because as a CEO, you're, you've got to make these decisions. What's your opinion on that? >>It's not, it's not as, as easy as I make it sound to do your own part. You know, AWS is, is, is, is huge, right? It's huge. And so we have to do our part to educate everybody within the, you know, even the AWS seller base to make sure that they internalize the fact that this is the right solution for the customers, for our joint customers, right? So we have to do that all day long. So there's no running away the no shortcut to everything, but obviously AWS does its part to make it very, as easy as possible, but there's a lot of heavy lifting we still have to do. And I think that'll only become easier and easier over the next few years >>And Sabina your takeout at AVS. You've got a great job. You were with all the hot growth companies. This is the big wave we're on right now with the cloud next generation clouds here, a lot of opportunities. >>Absolutely. And it's, and it's thanks to Pooja and, and partners like Lumeo that really understand what it takes to build a cloud native solution because it's part of it is building. And part of it is the co-selling go-to-market engine and embracing both of that is critical to success. >>Well, thank you both for coming on this journey here on the cube, as part of the showcase, push on. Great to see you to being a great to see you as well. And thanks for sharing that insight. Appreciate it. >>Thank you very much. >>Okay. AWS partners showcase speeding innovation with AWS. I'm John Ford, your host of the cube. Thanks for watching.

from around the globe it's thecube covering space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly hello and welcome to thecube's coverage we're here hosting with cal poly an amazing event space in the intersection of cyber security this session is defending satellite and space infrastructure from cyber threats got two great guests we've got major general john shaw combined four space component commander u.s space command and vandenberg air force base in california and roland cuello who's the ceo of maverick space systems gentlemen thank you for spending the time to come on to this session for the cal poly space and cyber security symposium appreciate it absolutely um guys defending satellites and space infrastructure is the new domain obviously it's a war warfighting domain it's also the future of the world and this is an important topic because we rely on space now for our everyday life and it's becoming more and more critical everyone knows how their phones work and gps just small examples of all the impacts i'd like to discuss with this hour this topic with you guys so if we can have you guys do an opening statement general if you can start with your opening statement we'll take it from there thanks john and greetings from vandenberg air force base we are just down the road from cal poly here on the central coast of california and uh very proud to be part of this uh effort and part of the partnership that we have with with cal poly on a number of fronts um i should uh so in in my job here i actually uh have two hats that i wear and it's i think worth talking briefly about those to set the context for our discussion you know we had two major organizational events within our department of defense with regard to space last year in 2019 and probably the one that made the most headlines was the stand-up of the united states space force that happened uh december 20th last year and again momentous the first new branch in our military since 1947 uh and uh it is a it's just over nine months old now as we're making this recording uh and already we're seeing a lot of change uh with regard to how we're approaching uh organizing training and equipping on a service side or space capabilities and so i uh in that with regard to the space force the hat i wear there is commander of space operations command that was what was once 14th air force when we were still part of the air force here at vandenberg and in that role i'm responsible for the operational capabilities that we bring to the joint warfighter and to the world from a space perspective didn't make quite as many headlines but another major change that happened last year was the uh the reincarnation i guess i would say of united states space command and that is a combatant command it's how our department of defense organizes to actually conduct warfighting operations um most people are more familiar perhaps with uh central command centcom or northern command northcom or even strategic command stratcom well now we have a space com we actually had one from 1985 until 2002 and then stood it down in the wake of the 9 11 attacks and a reorganization of homeland security but we've now stood up a separate command again operationally to conduct joint space operations and in that organization i wear a hat as a component commander and that's the combined force-based component command uh working with other all the additional capabilities that other services bring as well as our allies that combined in that title means that uh i under certain circumstances i would lead an allied effort uh in space operations and so it's actually a terrific job to have here on the central coast of california uh both working the uh how we bring space capabilities to the fight on the space force side and then how we actually operate those capabilities it's a point of joint in support of joint warfighters around the world um and and national security interests so that's the context now what el i i also should mention you kind of alluded to john you're beginning that we're kind of in a change situation than we were a number of years ago and that space we now see space as a warfighting domain for most of my career going back a little ways most of my my focus in my jobs was making sure i could bring space capabilities to those that needed them bringing gps to that special operations uh soldier on the ground somewhere in the world bringing satellite communications for our nuclear command and control bringing those capabilities for other uses but i didn't have to worry in most of my career about actually defending those space capabilities themselves well now we do we've actually gone to a point where we're are being threatened in space we now are treating it more like any other domain normalizing in that regard as a warfighting domain and so we're going through some relatively emergent efforts to protect and defend our capabilities in space to to design our capabilities to be defended and perhaps most of all to train our people for this new mission set so it's a very exciting time and i know we'll get into it but you can't get very far into talking about all these space capabilities and how we want to protect and defend them and how we're going to continue their ability to deliver to warfighters around the globe without talking about cyber because they fit together very closely so anyway thanks for the chance to be here today and i look forward to the discussion general thank you so much for that opening statement and i would just say that not only is it historic with the space force it's super exciting because it opens up so much more challenges and opportunities for to do more and to do things differently so i appreciate that statement roland your opening statement your your job is to put stuff in space faster cheaper smaller better your opening statement please um yes um thank you john um and yes you know to um general shaw's point you know with with the space domain and the need to protect it now um is incredibly important and i hope that we are more of a help um than a thorn in your side um in terms of you know building satellites smaller faster cheaper um you know and um definitely looking forward to this discussion and you know figuring out ways where um the entire space domain can work together you know from industry to to us government even to the academic environment as well so first would like to say and preface this by saying i am not a cyber security expert um we you know we build satellites um and uh we launch them into orbit um but we are by no means you know cyber security experts and that's why um you know we like to partner with organizations like the california cyber security institute because they help us you know navigate these requirements um so um so i'm the ceo of um of maverick space systems we are a small aerospace business in san luis obispo california and we provide small satellite hardware and service solutions to a wide range of customers all the way from the academic environment to the us government and everything in between we support customers through an entire you know program life cycle from mission architecture and formulation all the way to getting these customer satellites in orbit and so what we try to do is um provide hardware and services that basically make it easier for customers to get their satellites into orbit and to operate so whether it be reducing mass or volume um creating greater launch opportunities or providing um the infrastructure and the technology um to help those innovations you know mature in orbit you know that's you know that's what we do our team has experienced over the last 20 years working with small satellites and definitely fortunate to be part of the team that invented the cubesat standard by cal poly and stanford uh back in 2000 and so you know we are in you know vandenberg's backyard um we came from cal poly san luis obispo um and you know our um our hearts are fond you know of this area and working with the local community um a lot of that success um that we have had is directly attributable um to the experiences that we learned as students um working on satellite programs from our professors and mentors um you know that's you know all you know thanks to cal poly so just wanted to tell a quick story so you know back in 2000 just imagine a small group of undergraduate students you know myself included with the daunting task of launching multiple satellites from five different countries on a russian launch vehicle um you know many of us were only 18 or 19 not even at the legal age to drink yet um but as you know essentially teenagers we're managing million dollar budgets um and we're coordinating groups um from around the world um and we knew that we knew what we needed to accomplish um yet we didn't really know um what we were doing when we first started um the university was extremely supportive um and you know that's the cal poly learn by doing philosophy um i remember you know the first time we had a meeting with our university chief legal counsel and we were discussing the need to to register with the state department for itar nobody really knew what itar was back then um and you know discussing this with the chief legal counsel um you know she was asking what is itar um and we essentially had to explain you know this is um launching satellites as part of the um the u.s munitions list and essentially we have a similar situation you know exporting munitions um you know we are in similar categories um you know as you know as weapons um and so you know after that initial shock um everybody jumped in you know both feet forward um the university um you know our head legal counsel professors mentors and the students um you know knew we needed to tackle this problem um because you know the the need was there um to launch these small satellites and um you know the the reason you know this is important to capture the entire spectrum of users of the community um is that the technology and the you know innovation of the small satellite industry occurs at all levels you know so we have academia commercial national governments we even have high schools and middle schools getting involved and you know building satellite hardware um and the thing is you know the the importance of cyber security is incredibly important because it touches all of these programs and it touches you know people um at a very young age um and so you know we hope to have a conversation today um to figure out you know how do we um create an environment where we allow these programs to thrive but we also you know protect and you know keep their data safe as well thank you very much roland appreciate that uh story too as well thanks for your opening statement gentlemen i mean i love this topic because defending the assets in space is is as obvious um you look at it but there's a bigger picture going on in our world right now and generally you kind of pointed out the historic nature of space force and how it's changing already operationally training skills tools all that stuff is revolving you know in the tech world that i live in you know change the world is a topic they use that's thrown around a lot you can change the world a lot of young people we have just other panels on this where we're talking about how to motivate young people changing the world is what it's all about with technology for the better evolution is just an extension of another domain in this case space is just an extension of other domains similar things are happening but it's different there's a huge opportunity to change the world so it's faster there's an expanded commercial landscape out there certainly government space systems are moving and changing how do we address the importance of cyber security in space general we'll start with you because this is real it's exciting if you're a young person there's touch points of things to jump into tech building hardware to changing laws and and everything in between is an opportunity and it's exciting and it's truly a chance to change the world how does the commercial government space systems teams address the importance of cyber security so john i think it starts with with the realization that as i like to say that cyber and space are bffs uh there's nothing that we do on the cutting edge of space that isn't heavy reliant heavily reliant on the cutting edge of cyber and frankly there's probably nothing on the cutting edge of cyber that doesn't have a space application and when you realize that you see how how closely those are intertwined as we need to move forward at at speed it becomes fundamental to to the to answering your question let me give a couple examples we one of the biggest challenges i have on a daily basis is understanding what's going on in the space domain those on the on the on the surface of the planet talk about tyranny of distance across the oceans across large land masses and i talk about the tyranny of volume and you know right now we're looking out as far as the lunar sphere there's activity that's extending out to the out there we expect nasa to be conducting uh perhaps uh human operations in the lunar environment in the next few years so it extends out that far when you do the math that's a huge volume how do you do that how do you understand what's happening in real time in within that volume it is a big data problem by the very definition of that that kind of effort to that kind of challenge and to do it successfully in the years ahead it's going to require many many sensors and the fusion of data of all kinds to present a picture and then analytics and predictive analytics that are going to deliver an idea of what's going on in the space arena and that's just if people are not up to mischief once you have threats introduced into that environment it is even more challenging so i'd say it's a big data problem that we'll be enjoying uh tackling in the years ahead a second example is you know we if i if i had to if we had to take a vote of what were the most uh amazing robots that have ever been designed by humans i think that spacecraft would have to be up there on the list whether it's the nasa spacecraft that explore other planets or the ones that we or gps satellites that that amazingly uh provide a wonderful service to the entire globe uh and beyond they are amazing technological machines that's not going to stop i mean all the work that roland talked about at the at the even even that we're doing it at the kind of the microsoft level is is putting cutting-edge technology into smaller packages you can to get some sort of capability out of that as we expand our activities further and further into space for national security purposes or for exploration or commercial or civil the the cutting edge technologies of uh artificial intelligence uh and machine to machine engagements and machine learning are going to be part of that design work moving forward um and then there's the threat piece as we try to as we operate these these capabilities how these constellations grow that's going to be done via networks and as i've already pointed out space is a warfighting domain that means those networks will come under attack we expect that they will and that may happen early on in a conflict it may happen during peace time in the same way that we see cyber attacks all the time everywhere in many sectors of of activity and so by painting that picture you kind of get you we start to see how it's intertwined at the very very base most basic level the cutting edge of cyber and cutting edge of space with that then comes the need to any cutting edge cyber security capability that we have is naturally going to be needed as we develop space capabilities and we're going to have to bake that in from the very beginning we haven't done that in the past as well as we should but moving forward from this point on it will be an essential ingredient that we work into all of our new capability roland we're talking about now critical infrastructure we're talking about new capabilities being addressed really fast so it's kind of chaotic now there's threats so it's not as easy as just having capabilities because you've got to deal with the threats the general just pointed out but now you've got critical infrastructure which then will enable other things down down the line how do you protect it how do we address this how do you see this being addressed from a security standpoint because you know malware these techniques can be mapped in as extended into into space and takeovers wartime peacetime these things are all going to be under threat that's pretty well understood i think people kind of get that how do we address it what's your what's your take yeah you know absolutely and you know i couldn't agree more with general shaw you know with cyber security and space being so intertwined um and you know i think with fast and rapid innovation um comes you know the opportunity for threats especially um if you have bad actors um that you know want to cause harm and so you know as a technology innovator and you're pushing the bounds um you kind of have a common goal of um you know doing the best you can um and you know pushing the technology balance making it smaller faster cheaper um but a lot of times what entrepreneurs and you know small businesses and supply chains um are doing and don't realize it is a lot of these components are dual use right i mean you could have a very benign commercial application but then a small you know modification to it and turn it into a military application and if you do have these bad actors they can exploit that and so you know i think the the big thing is um creating a organization that is you know non-biased that just wants to kind of level the playing field for everybody to create a set standard for cyber security in space i think you know one group that would be perfect for that you know is um cci um you know they understand both the cybersecurity side of things and they also have you know at cal poly um you know the the small satellite group um and you know just having kind of a a clearinghouse or um an agency where um can provide information that is free um you know you don't need a membership for and to be able to kind of collect that but also you know reach out to the entire value chain you know for a mission and um making them aware um of you know what potential capabilities are and then how it might um be you know potentially used as a weapon um and you know keeping them informed because i think you know the the vast majority of people in the space industry just want to do the right thing and so how do we get that information free flowing to you know to the us government so that they can take that information create assessments and be able to not necessarily um stop threats from occurring presently but identify them long before that they would ever even happen um yeah that's you know general i want to i want to follow up on that real quick before we go to the next talk track critical infrastructure um you mentioned you know across the oceans long distance volume you know when you look at the physical world you know you had you know power grids here united states you had geography you had perimeters uh the notion of a perimeter and the moat this is and then you had digital comes in then you have we saw software open up and essentially take down this idea of a perimeter and from a defense standpoint and that everything changed and we had to fortify those critical assets uh in the u.s space increases the same problem statement significantly because it's you can't just have a perimeter you can't have a moat it's open it's everywhere like what digital's done and that's why we've seen a slurge of cyber in the past two decades attacks with software so this isn't going to go away you need the critical infrastructure you're putting it up there you're formulating it and you've got to protect it how do you view that because it's going to be an ongoing problem statement what's the current thinking yeah i i think my sense is a mindset that you can build a a firewall or a defense or some other uh system that isn't dynamic in his own right is probably not heading in the right direction i think cyber security in the future whether it's for our space systems or for other critical infrastructure is going to be a dynamic fight that happens at a machine-to-machine um a speed and dynamic um i don't think it's too far off where we will have uh machines writing their own code in real time to fight off attacks that are coming at them and by the way the offense will probably be doing the same kind of thing and so i i guess i would not want to think that the answer is something that you just build it and you leave it alone and it's good enough it's probably going to be a constantly evolving capability constantly reacting to new threats and staying ahead of those threats that's the kind of use case just to kind of you know as you were kind of anecdotal example is the exciting new software opportunities for computer science majors i mean i tell my young kids and everyone man it's more exciting now i wish i was 18 again it's so so exciting with ai bro i want to get your thoughts we were joking on another panel with the dod around space and the importance of it obviously and we're going to have that here and then we had a joke it's like oh software's defined everything it says software's everything ai and and i said well here in the united states companies had data centers and they went to the cloud and they said you can't do break fix it's hard to do break fix in space you can't just send a tech up i get that today but soon maybe robotics the general mentions robotics technologies and referencing some of the accomplishments fixing things is almost impossible in space but maybe form factors might get better certainly software will play a role what's your thoughts on that that landscape yeah absolutely you know for for software in orbit um you know there's there's a push for you know software-defined radios um to basically go from hardware to software um and you know that's that that's a critical link um if you can infiltrate that and a small satellite has propulsion on board you could you know take control of that satellite and cause a lot of havoc and so you know creating standards and you know that kind of um initial threshold of security um you know for let's say you know these radios you know communications and making that um available um to the entire supply chain to the satellite builders um and operators you know is incredibly key and you know that's again one of the initiatives that um that cci is um is tackling right now as well general i want to get your thoughts on best practices around cyber security um state of the art today uh and then some guiding principles and kind of how the if you shoot the trajectory forward what what might happen uh around um supply chain there's been many stories where oh we outsourced the chips and there's a little chip sitting in a thing and it's built by someone else in china and the software is written from someone in europe and the united states assembles it it gets shipped and it's it's corrupt and it has some cyber crime making i'm oversimplifying the the statement but this is what when you have space systems that involve intellectual property uh from multiple partners whether it's from software to creation and then deployment you get supply chain tiers what are some of the best practices that you see involving that don't stunt the innovation but continues to innovate but people can operate safely what's your thoughts yeah so on supply chain i think i think the symposium here is going to get to hear from lieutenant general jt thompson uh from space missile system center down in los angeles and and uh he's a he's just down the road from us there uh on the coast um and his team is is the one that we look to really focus on as he acquires and develop again bake in cyber security from the beginning and knowing where the components are coming from and and properly assessing those as you as you put together your space systems is a key uh piece of what his team is focused on so i expect we'll hear him talk about that when it talks to i think she asked the question a little more deeply about how do the best practices in terms of how we now develop moving forward well another way that we don't do it right is if we take a long time to build something and then you know general general jt thompson's folks take a while to build something and then they hand it over to to to me and my team to operate and then they go hands-free and and then and then that's you know that's what i have for for years to operate until the next thing comes along that's a little old school what we're going to have to do moving forward with our space capabilities and with the cyber piece baked in is continually developing new capability sets as we go we actually have partnership between general thompson's team and mine here at vandenberg on our ops floor or our combined space operations center that are actually working in real time together better tools that we can use to understand what's going on the space environment to better command and control our capabilities anywhere from military satellite communications to space domain awareness sensors and such and so and we're developing those capabilities in real time it's a dev and and with the security pieces so devsecops is we're practicing that in in real time i think that is probably the standard today that we're trying to live up to as we continue to evolve but it has to be done again in close partnership all the time it's not a sequential industrial age process while i'm on the subject of partnerships so general thompson's and team and mine have good partnerships it's part partnerships across the board are going to be another way that we are successful and that uh it means with with academia in some of the relationships that we have here with cal poly it's with the commercial sector in ways that we haven't done before the old style business was to work with just a few large um companies that had a lot of space experience well we need we need a lot of kinds of different experience and technologies now in order to really field good space capabilities and i expect we'll see more and more non-traditional companies being part of and and organizations being part of that partnership that will work going forward i mentioned at the beginning that um uh allies are important to us so everything that uh that role and i've been talking about i think you have to extrapolate out to allied partnerships right it doesn't help me uh as a combined force component commander which is again one of my jobs it doesn't help me if the united states capabilities are cyber secure but i'm trying to integrate them with capabilities from an ally that are not cyber secure so that partnership has to be dynamic and continually evolving together so again close partnering continually developing together from the acquisition to the operational sectors with as many um different sectors of our economy uh as possible are the ingredients to success general i'd love to just follow up real quick i was having just a quick reminder for a conversation i had with last year with general keith alexander who was does a lot of cyber security work and he was talking about the need to share faster and the new school is you got to share faster and to get the data you mentioned observability earlier you need to see what everything's out there he's a real passionate person around getting the data getting it fast and having trusted partners so that's not it's kind of evolving as i mean sharing is a well-known practice but with cyber it's sensitive data potentially so there's a trust relationship there's now a new ecosystem that's new for uh government how do you view all that and your thoughts on that trend of the sharing piece of it on cyber so it's i don't know if it's necessarily new but it's at a scale that we've never seen before and by the way it's vastly more complicated and complex when you overlay from a national security perspective classification of data and information at various levels and then that is again complicated by the fact you have different sharing relationships with different actors whether it's commercial academic or allies so it gets very very uh a complex web very quickly um so that's part of the challenge we're working through how can we how can we effectively share information at multiple classification levels with multiple partners in an optimal fashion it is certainly not optimal today it's it's very difficult even with maybe one industry partner for me to be able to talk about data at an unclassified level and then various other levels of classification to have the traditional networks in place to do that i could see a solution in the future where our cyber security is good enough that maybe i only really need one network and the information that is allowed to flow to the players within the right security environment um to uh to make that all happen as quickly as possible so you've actually uh john you've hit on yet another big challenge that we have is um is evolving our networks to properly share with the right people at the right uh clearance levels as at speed of war which is what we're going to need yeah and i wanted to call that out because this is an opportunity again this discussion here at cal poly and around the world is for new capabilities and new people to solve the problems and um it's again it's super exciting if you you know you're geeking out on this it's if you have a tech degree or you're interested in changing the world there's so many new things that could be applied right now roland will get your thoughts on this because one of the things in the tech trends we're seeing this is a massive shift all the theaters of the tech industry are are changing rapidly at the same time okay and it affects policy law but also deep tech the startup communities are super important in all this too we can't forget them obviously the big trusted players that are partnering certainly on these initiatives but your story about being in the dorm room now you got the boardroom and now you got everything in between you have startups out there that want to and can contribute and you know what's an itar i mean i got all these acronym certifications is there a community motion to bring startups in in a safe way but also give them a ability to contribute because you look at open source that proved everyone wrong on software that's happening now with this now open network concept the general is kind of alluding to which is it's a changing landscape your thoughts i know you're passionate about this yeah absolutely you know and i think um you know as general shaw mentioned you know we need to get information out there faster more timely and to the right people um and involving not only just stakeholders in the us but um internationally as well you know and as entrepreneurs um you know we have this very lofty vision or goal uh to change the world and um oftentimes um you know entrepreneurs including myself you know we put our heads down and we just run as fast as we can and we don't necessarily always kind of take a breath and take a step back and kind of look at what we're doing and how it's touching um you know other folks and in terms of a community i don't know of any formal community out there it's mostly ad hoc and you know these ad hoc communities are folks who let's say have you know was was a student working on a satellite um you know in college and they love that entrepreneurial spirit and so they said well i'm gonna start my own company and so you know a lot of the these ad hoc networks are just from relationships um that are that have been built over the last two decades um you know from from colleagues that you know at the university um i do think formalizing this and creating um kind of a you know clearinghouse to to handle all of this is incredibly important yeah um yeah there's gonna be a lot of entrepreneurial activity no doubt i mean just i mean there's too many things to work on and not enough time so i mean this brings up the question though while we're on this topic um you got the remote work with covid everyone's working remotely we're doing this remote um interview rather than being on stage works changing how people work and engage certainly physical will come back but if you looked at historically the space industry and the talent you know they're all clustered around the bases and there's always been these areas where you're you're a space person you're kind of working there and there's jobs there and if you were cyber you were 10 in other areas over the past decade there's been a cross-pollination of talent and location as you see the intersection of space general start with you you know first of all central coast is a great place to live i know that's where you guys live but you can start to bring together these two cultures sometimes they're you know not the same maybe they're getting better we know they're being integrated so general can you just share your thoughts because this is uh one of those topics that everyone's talking about but no one's actually kind of addressed directly um yeah john i i think so i think i want to answer this by talking about where i think the space force is going because i think if there was ever an opportunity or inflection point in our department of defense to sort of change culture and and try to bring in non-traditional kinds of thinking and and really kind of change uh maybe uh some of the ways that the department of defense has does things that are probably archaic space force is an inflection point for that uh general raymond our our chief of space operations has said publicly for a while now he wants the us space force to be the first truly digital service and uh you know what we what we mean by that is you know we want the folks that are in the space force to be the ones that are the first adopters or the early adopters of of technology um to be the ones most fluent in the cutting edge technological developments on space and cyber and and other um other sectors of the of of the of the economy that are technologically focused uh and i think there's some can that can generate some excitement i think and it means that we probably end up recruiting people into the space force that are not from the traditional recruiting areas that the rest of the department of defense looks to and i think it allows us to bring in a diversity of thought and diversity of perspective and a new kind of motivation um into the service that i think is frankly is is really exciting so if you put together everything i mentioned about how space and cyber are going to be best friends forever and i think there's always been an excitement in them you know from the very beginning in the american psyche about space you start to put all these ingredients together and i think you see where i'm going with this that really changed that cultural uh mindset that you were describing it's an exciting time for sure and again changing the world and this is what you're seeing today people do want to change world they want a modern world that's changing roy look at your thoughts on this i was having an interview a few years back with a tech entrepreneur um techie and we were joking we were just kind of riffing and we and i said everything that's on star trek will be invented and we're almost there actually if you think about it except for the transporter room you got video you got communicators so you know not to bring in the star trek reference with space force this is digital and you start thinking about some of the important trends it's going to be up and down the stack from hardware to software to user experience everything your thoughts and reaction yeah abs absolutely and so you know what we're seeing is um timeline timelines shrinking dramatically um because of the barrier to entry for you know um new entrants and you know even your existing aerospace companies is incredibly low right so if you take um previously where you had a technology on the ground and you wanted it in orbit it would take years because you would test it on the ground you would verify that it can operate in space in a space environment and then you would go ahead and launch it and you know we're talking tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to do that now um we've cut that down from years to months when you have a prototype on the ground and you want to get it launched you don't necessarily care if it fails on orbit the first time because you're getting valuable data back and so you know we're seeing technology being developed you know for the first time on the ground and in orbit in a matter of a few months um and the whole kind of process um you know that that we're doing as a small business is you know trying to enable that and so allowing these entrepreneurs and small small companies to to get their technology in orbit at a price that is sometimes even cheaper than you know testing on the ground you know this is a great point i think this is really an important point to call out because we mentioned partnerships earlier the economics and the business model of space is doable i mean you do a mission study you get paid for that you have technology you can get stuff up up quickly and there's a cost structure there and again the alternative was waterfall planning years and millions now the form factors are different now again there may be different payloads involved but you can standardize payloads you got robotic arms all this is all available this brings up the congestion problem this is going to be on the top of mind the generals of course but you got the proliferation okay of these constellation systems you have more and more tech vectors i mean essentially that's malware i mean that's a probe you throw something up in space that could cause some interference maybe a takeover general this is the this is the real elephant in the room the threat matrix from new stuff and new configurations so general how does the proliferation of constellation systems change the threat matrix so i i think the uh you know i guess i'm gonna i'm gonna be a little more optimistic john than i think you pitched that i'm actually excited about these uh new mega constellations in leo um i'm excited about the the growing number of actors that are that are going into space for various reasons and why is that it's because we're starting to realize a new economic engine uh for the nation and for human society so the question is so so i think we want that to happen right when uh um when uh we could go to almost any any other domain in history and and and you know there when when air traffic air air travel started to become much much more commonplace with many kinds of uh actors from from private pilots flying their small planes all the way up to large airliners uh you know there there was a problem with congestion there was a problem about um challenges about uh behavior and are we gonna be able to manage this and yes we did and it was for the great benefit of society i could probably look to the maritime domain for similar kinds of things and so this is actually exciting about space we are just going to have to find the ways as a society and it's not just the department of defense it's going to be civil it's going to be international find the mechanisms to encourage this continued investment in the space domain i do think the space force uh will play a role in in providing security in the space environment as we venture further out as as economic opportunities emerge uh wherever they are um in the in the lunar earth lunar system or even within the solar system space force is going to play a role in that but i'm actually really excited about the those possibilities hey by the way i got to say you made me think of this when you talked about star trek and and and space force and our technologies i remember when i was younger watching the the next generation series i thought one of the coolest things because being a musician in my in my spare time i thought one of the coolest things was when um commander riker would walk into his quarters and and say computer play soft jazz and there would just be the computer would just play music you know and this was an age when you know we had we had hard uh um uh media right like how will that that is awesome man i can't wait for the 23rd century when i can do that and where we are today is is so incredible on those lines the things that i can ask alexa or siri to play um well that's the thing everything that's on star trek think about it almost invented i mean you got the computers you got the only thing really is the holograms are starting to come in you got now the transporter room now that's physics we'll work on that right right so there's a there is this uh a balance between physics and imagination but uh we have not exhausted either well um personally everyone that knows me knows i'm a huge star trek fan all the series of course i'm an original purist but at that level but this is about economic incentive as well roland i want to get your thoughts because you know the gloom and doom you got to think about the the bad stuff to make it good if i if i put my glass half full on the table there's economic incentives just like the example of the plane and the air traffic there's there's actors that are more actors that are incented to have a secure system what's your thoughts to general's comments around the optimism and and the potential threat matrix that needs to be managed absolutely so and you know one of the things that we've seen over the years um as you know we build these small satellites is a lot of the technology you know that the general is talking about um you know voice recognition miniaturized chips and sensors um started on the ground and i mean you know you have you know your iphone um that about 15 years ago before the first iphone came out um you know we were building small satellites in the lab and we were looking at cutting-edge state-of-the-art magnetometers and sensors um that we were putting in our satellites back then we didn't know if they were going to work and then um a few years later as these students graduate they go off and they go out to under you know other industries and so um some of the technology that was first kind of put in these cubesats in the early 2000s you know kind of ended up in the first generation iphone smartphones um and so being able to take that technology rapidly you know incorporate that into space and vice versa gives you an incredible economic advantage because um not only are your costs going down um because you know you're mass producing you know these types of terrestrial technologies um but then you can also um you know increase you know revenue and profit um you know by by having you know smaller and cheaper systems general let's talk about that for real quickly it's a good point i want to just shift it into the playbook i mean everyone talks about playbooks for management for tech for startups for success i mean one of the playbooks that's clear from in history is investment in r d around military and or innovation that has a long view spurs innovation commercially i mean just there's a huge many decades of history that shows that hey we got to start thinking about these these challenges and you know next you know it's in an iphone this is history this is not like a one-off and now with space force you get you're driving you're driving the main engine of innovation to be all digital you know we we riff about star trek which is fun but the reality is you're going to be on the front lines of some really new cool mind-blowing things could you share your thoughts on how you sell that people who write the checks or recruit more talent well so i first i totally agree with your thesis that the that you know national security well could probably go back an awful long way hundreds to thousands of years that security matters tend to drive an awful lot of innovation and creativity because um you know i think the the probably the two things that drive drive people the most are probably an opportunity to make money uh but only by beating that out are trying to stay alive um and uh and so i don't think that's going to go away and i do think that space force can play a role um as it pursues uh security uh structures you know within the space domain to further encourage economic investment and to protect our space capabilities for national security purposes are going to be at the cutting edge this isn't the first time um i think we can point back to the origins of the internet really started in the department of defense and with a partnership i should add with academia that's how the internet got started that was the creativity in order to to meet some needs there cryptography has its roots in security but we use it uh in in national security but now we use it in for economic reasons and meant and a host of other kinds of reasons and then space itself right i mean we still look back to uh apollo era as an inspiration for so many things that inspired people to to either begin careers in in technical areas or in space and and so on so i think i think in that same spirit you're absolutely right i guess i'm totally agreeing with your thesis the space force uh will be and a uh will have a positive inspirational influence in that way and we need to to realize that so when we are asking for when we're looking for how we need to meet capability needs we need to spread that net very far look for the most creative solutions and partner early and often with those that that can that can work on those when you're on the new frontier you've got to have a team sport it's a team effort you mentioned the internet just anecdotally i'm old enough to remember this because i remember the days that was going on and said the government if the policy decisions that the u.s made at that time was to let it go a little bit invisible hand they didn't try to commercialize it too fast and but there was some policy work that was done that had a direct effect to the innovation versus take it over and next you know it's out of control so i think you know i think this this just a cross-disciplinary skill set becomes a big thing where you need to have more people involved and that's one of the big themes of this symposium so it's a great point thank you for sharing that roland your thoughts on this because you know you got policy decisions we all want to run faster we want to be more innovative but you got to have some ops view now mostly ops people want things very tight very buttoned up secure the innovators want to go faster it's the yin and yang that's that's the world we live in how's it all balanced in your mind yeah um you know one of the things um that may not be apparently obvious is that you know the us government and department of um of defense is one of the biggest investors in technology in the aerospace sector um you know they're not the traditional venture capitalists but they're the ones that are driving technology innovation because there's funding um you know and when companies see that the us governments is interested in something businesses will will re-vector um you know to provide that capability and in the i would say the more recent years we've had a huge influx of private equity venture capital um coming into the markets to kind of help augment um you know the government investment and i think having a good partnership and a relationship with these private equity venture capitalists and the us government is incredibly important because the two sides you know can can help collaborate and kind of see a common goal but then also too on um you know the other side is you know there's that human element um and as general shaw was saying it's like not you know not only do companies you know obviously want to thrive and do really well some companies just want to stay alive um to see their technology kind of you know grow into what they've always dreamed of and you know oftentimes entrepreneurs um are put in a very difficult position because they have to make payroll they have to you know keep the lights on and so sometimes they'll take investment um from places where they may normally would not have you know from potentially foreign investment that could potentially you know cause issues with you know the you know the us supply chain well my final question is the best i wanted to say for last because i love the idea of human space flight i'd love to be on mars i'm not sure i'll be able to make it someday but how do you guys see the possible impacts of cyber security on expanding human space flight operations i mean general this is your wheelhouse this is urine command putting humans in space and certainly robots will be there because they're easy to go because they're not human but humans in space i mean you're starting to see the momentum the discussion uh people are are scratching that itch what's your take on that how do we see making this more possible well i i think we will see we will see uh commercial space tourism uh in the future i'm not sure how wide and large a scale it will become but we'll we will see that and um part of uh i think the mission of the space force is going to be probably to again do what we're doing today is have really good awareness of what's going on the domain to uh to to to ensure that that is done safely and i think a lot of what we do today will end up in civil organizations to do space traffic management and safety uh in in that uh arena um and uh um it is only a matter of time uh before we see um humans going even beyond the you know nasa has their plan the the artemis program to get back to the moon and the gateway initiative to establish a a space station there and that's going to be an exploration initiative but it is only a matter of time before we have um private citizens or private corporations putting people in space and not only for tourism but for economic activity and so it'll be really exciting to watch it would be really exciting and space force will be a part of it general roland i want to thank you for your valuable time to come on this symposium i really appreciate it final uh comment i'd love to you to spend a minute to share your personal thoughts on the importance of cyber security to space and we'll close it out we'll start with you roland yeah so i think that the biggest thing um i would like to try to get out of this you know from my own personal perspective is um creating that environment that allows um you know the the aerospace supply chain small businesses you know like ourselves be able to meet all the requirements um to protect um and safeguard our data but also um create a way that you know we can still thrive and it won't stifle innovation um you know i'm looking forward um to comments and questions um you know from the audience um to really kind of help um you know you know basically drive to that next step general final thoughts the importance of cyber security to space i'll just i'll go back to how i started i think john and say that space and cyber are forever intertwined they're bffs and whoever has my job 50 years from now or 100 years from now i predict they're going to be saying the exact same thing cyber and space are are intertwined for good we will always need the cutting edge cyber security capabilities that we develop as a nation or as a as a society to protect our space capabilities and our cyber capabilities are going to need space capabilities in the future as well general john shaw thank you very much roland cleo thank you very much for your great insight thank you to cal poly for putting this together i want to shout out to the team over there we couldn't be in person but we're doing a virtual remote event i'm john furrier with thecube and siliconangle here in silicon valley thanks for watching

>>from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley. Palo ALTO, California It is a cute conversation. >>Hi, and welcome to the Cube Studios for another cube conversation where we go in depth with thought leaders driving innovation across the tech industry. I'm your host, Peter Boris. Everybody's talking about the cloud and with the cloud might be able to do for their business. The challenge is there are a limited number of people in the world who really understands what it means to build for the cloud utilizing the cloud. It's a lot of approximations out there, but not a lot of folks are deeply involved in actually doing it right. We've got one here with us today. Wound Junk is thesis CEO and co founder of Clue Meo Womb. Welcome to the Cube. >>Happy to be here. >>So let's start with this issue of what it means to build for the cloud. Now Lou Meows made the decision to have everything fit into that as a service model. What does that practically need? >>So from the engineering point of view, building our sauce application is fundamentally different. So the way that I'll go and say is that at Cuneo. We actually don't build software and ship software. What we actually do, it builds service and service is what you're actually shipped our customers. Uh, let me give you an example. In the case of Kun, you they say backups fail like so far sometimes fails. We get that failures too. The difference in between Clooney oh, and traditional solutions is that if something were to fail, we are they one detecting that failure before our customers do Not only that, when something fails, we actually know exactly why it failed. Therefore, we can actually troubleshoot it, and we can actually fix it and operate the service without the customer intervention. So it's not about the books also or about the troubleshooting aspect, but it's also about new features. If you were to introduce a new features, we can actually do this without having customers upgraded call. We will actually do it ourselves. So essentially it frees the customers from actually doing all these actions because we will do them on behalf of them >>at scale. And I think that's the second thing I want to talk about quickly. Is that the ability to use the cloud to do many of the things that you're talking about at scale creates incredible ranges of options that customers have at their disposal. So, for example, a W s customers of historically using like snapshots to provide ah modicum of data protection to their AWS workloads. But there are other new options that could be applied if the systems are built to supply them. Give us a sense of how clue Meal is looking at this question of, you know, snapshots were something else. >>Yes, so, basically, traditionally, even on their own prints, out of the things you have something called the snapshots and you had your backups right, and they're they're fundamentally different. But if you actually shift your gears and you look at what A. W S offers today, they actually offers the ability for you to take snapshots. But actually that's not a backup, right? And they're they're fundamentally different. So let's talk about it a little bit more what it means to be snapshots and a backup. Right? So they say, there's a bad actor and your account gets compromised like your AWS account gets compromised. So then the bad actor has access not only to the EBS volumes, but also to the snap shows. What that means is that that person can actually go in and delete the E. V s volume as well as the TVs. No options. Now, If you had a backup, let's say you are should take a backup of that TVs William to whom? You, that bad actor would have access to the CVS volumes. However, it won't be able to delete the backup that we actually have, including you. So in the whole thing. The idea off Romeo is that you should be able to protect all of your assets, that being either an on Prem or neither of us by setting up a single policies. And these are true backups and not just snapshots. >>And that leads to the last question I have, which is ultimately the ability to introduce thes capabilities. At scale creates a lot of new opportunities that customers can utilize to do a better job of building applications, but also, I presume, managing how they use AWS because snapshots and other types of service can expand dramatically, which can increase your cost. How is doing it better with things like native backup service is improve customers ability to administer the AWS spend and accounts. >>So great question. So, essentially, if you look at the enterprises today, obviously they have multiple on premise data centers and also a different car providers that they use like AWS and azure and also a few sauce applications. Right? So then the idea is for Camilo is to create this single platform. What? All of the stains can actually be backed up in a uniform way where you can actually manage all of them. And then the other thing is all doing it in the cloud. So if you think about it, if you don't solve the problem, fundamental in the car, their stings that you end up paying later on. So let's take an example. Right. Uh, moving bites moving bites in between one server to the other, traditionally basically moving bites from one rack to the other. It was always free. You never had to pay anything for that. >>Certainly in the data center, >>right? But if you actually go to the public cloud, you cannot say the same thing, right? Basically, moving by across AWS recent regions is not free anymore. Moving data from AWS to the on premises. That's not for either. So these are all the things that any, you know, cop provider service provider, because has to consider and actually solved so that the customers can on Lee back it up into Clem you. But then they actually can leverage different cloud providers, you know, in a seamless way, without having to worry all of this costs associated with it so criminal we should be able to back it up. But we should be able to also offer mobility in between either aws back up the M word or the M. C. >>So if I can kind of summarize what you just said that you want to be able to provide to an account to an enterprise the ability to not have to worry about the back and infrastructure from a technical and process standpoint, but not also have to worry so much about the back and infrastructure from a cost of financial standpoint that by providing a service and then administering how that service is optimally handled, the customer doesn't have to think about some of those financial considerations of moving data around in the same way that they used to have. I got that right? >>I absolutely yes. Basically multiple accounts, multiple regions, multiple couple providers. It is extremely hard to manage. What come you does? It will actually provide you a single pane of glass where you can actually manage them all. But then, if you actually think about just and manageability this actually you can actually do that by just building a management layer on top of it. But more importantly, you really need to have a single data repository for you. For us to be able to provide a true mobility in between them. One is about managing. But the other thing is about if you're done, if you're done with the real divide way, it provides you the belly to move them and leverages the cloud power so that you don't have to worry about the cloud expenses but whom you internally is the one that actually optimizing all of this for our customers. >>Wound young cto and co founder of Cleo. Thanks very much for being on the Q. Thank you. And thank you for joining us for another cube conversation. I'm Peter Bursts. See you next time

>> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley. HOLLOWAY ALTO, California It is a cube conversation. >> Hello and welcome to Cube conversations. I'm James Kabila's lead analyst at Wicked Bond. Today we've got an excellent guest. Who's a Cube alumnus? Par excellence. It's your own Haviv who is the founder and CEO of a guajillo. Hello. You're wrong. Welcome in. I think you're you're coming in from Tel Aviv. If I'm not mistaken, >> right? Really? Close the deal of any thanks from my seeing you again. >> Yeah. Nice to see you again. So I'm here in our Palo Alto studios. And so I'm always excited when I can hear your own and meet with your room because he always has something interesting in new to share. But what they're doing in the areas of cloud and serve earless and really time streaming analytics And now, data science. I wasn't aware of how deeply they're involved in the whole data Science pipelines, so ah, your own. This is great to have you. So my first question really is. Can you sketch out? What are the emerging marketplace requirements that USA gua Si are seeing in the convergence of all these spaces? Especially riel time streaming analytics edge computing server lis and data science and A I can you give us a sort of ah broad perspective and outlook on the convergence and really the new opportunities or possibilities that the convergence of those technologies enable for enterprises that are making deep investments. >> Yeah, so I think we were serving dissipated. What's happening now? We just call them different names will probably get into into this discussion in a minute. I think what you see is the traditional analytics and even data scientist Science was starting at sort of a research labs, people exploring cancer, expressing, you know, impact. Whether on, you know, people's moved its era. And now people are trying to make real or a Y from a guy in their assigned, so they have to plug it within business applications. Okay, so it's not just a veil. A scientist Inning the silo, you know, with a bunch of large that he got from his friends, the data engineer in the scan them and Derrickson Namesake runs to the boss and says, You know what? You know, we could have made some money in a year ago. We've done something so that doesn't make a lot of impact on the business, where the impact on the business is happening is when you actually integrate a I in jackpot in recommendation engines in doing predictive analytics on analyzing failures and saving saving failures on, you know, saving people's life. Those kind of use cases. Doctors are the ones that record a tighter integration between the application and the data and algorithms that come from the day I. And that's where we started to think about our platform. Way worked on a real time data, which is where you know, when you're going into more production environment of not fatal accident. Very good, very fast integration with data. And we have this sort of fast computation layer, which was a one micro services, and now everyone talks about micro services. We sort of started with this area, and that is allowing people to build those intelligent application that are integrated into the business applications. And the biggest challenges they see today for organizations is moving from this process of books on research, on data in a historical data and translating that into a visit supplication or into impact on business application. This is where people can spend the year. You know, I've seen the tweet saying with build a machine learning model in, like, a few weeks. And now we've waited eleven months for the product ization. So that artifact, >> Yes, that's what we're seeing it wicked bomb. Which is that A. I is the heart of modern applications in business and the new generation of application developers, in many ways, our data scientists, or have you know, lovers the skills and tools for data science. Now, looking at a glass zeros portfolio, you evolve so rapidly and to address a broader range of use cases I've seen. And you've explained it over the years that in position to go, as well as being a continuous data platform and intelligent edge platform, a surveillance platform. And now I see that you're a bit of a data science workbench or pipeline tooling. Clever. Could you connect these dots here on explain what is a guajillo fully >> role, Earl? Nice mark things for this in technology that we've built, OK, just over the years, you know, people, four years when we started, So we have to call it something else. Well, that I thought that analytic sort of the corporate state of science. And when we said continued analytics, we meant essentially feeding data and running, some of them speaking some results. This is the service opposed to the trend of truth which was dating the lady Throw data in and then you run the batch that analytic and they're like, Do you have some insight? So continue statistics was served a term that we've came up with a B, not the basket. You know, describe that you're essentially thinking, needing from different forces crunching it, Prue algorithms and generating triggers and actions are responsible user requests. Okay on that will serve a pretty unique and serve the fireman here in this industry even before they called it streaming or in a real time, data science or whatever. Now, if you look at our architecture are architecture, as I explained before, is comprised of three components. The first event is a real time, full time model database. You know, you know about it really exceptional in his performance and its other capabilities. The second thing is a pursue miss engine that allows us to essentially inject applications. Various guys, initially we started with application. I sense you do analytics, you know, grouping joining, you know, correlating. And then we start just adding more functions and other things like inference, saying humans recognitions and analysis. It's Arab is we have dysfunction engine. It allows us a lot of flexibility and find the really fast for the engine on a really fast data there endure it, remarkable results and then this return calling this turn this micro assume it's finger serve Ellis who certainly even where have the game of this or service gang. And the third element of our platform is a sense she having a fully manage, passed a platform where a ll those micro services our data and it threw a self service into face surfing over there is a mini cloud. You know, we've recently the last two years we've shifted to working with coronaries versus using our own A proprietary micro spurs does or frustration originally. So we went into all those three major technologies. Now, those pit into different application when they're interesting application. If you think about edge in the engine in serving many clouds, you need variety of data, sources and databases. With you, no problem arose streaming files. Terra. We'LL support all of them when our integrated the platform and then you need to go micro services that developed in the cloud and then just sort of shift into the enforcement point in the edge. And you need for an orchestration there because you want to do suffer upgrades, you need to protect security. So having all the integrated separated an opportunity for us to work with providers of agin, you may have noticed our joint announcement with Google around solution for hedge around retailers and an i O. T. We've made some announcement with Microsoft in the fast. We're going to do some very interesting announcement very soon. We've made some joint that nonsense with Samsung and in video, all around those errands, we continue. It's not that we're limited to EJ just what happens because we have extremely high density data platform, very power of fish and very well integrated. It has a great feat in the India, but it's also the same platform that we sell in. The cloud is a service or we sell two on from customers s so they can run. The same things is in the clouds, which happens to be the fastest, most real time platform on the Advantage service. An essential feature cannot just ignore. >> So you're wrong. Europe. Yeah, Iguazu is a complete cloud, native development and run time platform. Now serve earless in many ways. Seems to be the core of your capability in your platform. New Cleo, which is your technology you've open sourced. It's bill for Prem bays to private clouds. But also it has is extensible to be usable in broader hybrid cloud scenarios. Now, give us a sense for how nuclear and civilised functions become valuable or useful for data science off or for executing services or functions of data of the data science pipeline kick you connect the dots of nuclear and data science and a I from the development standpoint >> church. So So I think you know, the two pillars that we have technology that the most important ones are the data. You know, we have things like twelve batons on our data engine is very high performance and nuclear functions, and also they're very well integrated because usually services stateless. So you know, you you end up. If you want to practice that they have some challenges with service with No, no, you can't. You stay for use cases. You can mount files. You have real time connections to data, so that makes it a lot more interesting than just along the functions. The other thing, with no clothes that is extremely high performance has about two hundred times faster than land. So that means that you can actually go and build things like the stream processing and joins in real time all over practice, their base activities. You can just go and do collectors. We call them those like things. Go fetch information from whether services from routers for the X cybersecurity analysis for all sorts of sensors. So those functions are becoming like, you know, those nanobots technology of off the movies is that you just send them over to go and do things for you, whether it's the daily collection and crunching, whether it's the influencing engines, those things that, for example, get a picture of very put the model, decide what's in the picture, and that this is where we're really comes into play. They nothing important you see now an emergence off a service patterns in data science. So there are many companies that do like mother influencing as a service city what they do, they launch an end point of your eleven point and serve runs the model inside you send the Vector America values and get back in the Americans and their conversion. It's not really different and service it just wait more limited because I don't just want to send a vector off numbers because usually I understand really like a geo location of my cellphone, which are user I D. And I need dysfunction to cross correlated with other information about myself with the location. Then came commendation of which a product they need to buy. So and then those functions also have all sorts of dependency exam on different packages. Different software environment, horribles, build structures, all those. This is really where service technologies are much more suitable now. It's interesting that if you'LL go to Amazon, they have a product called Sage Maker. I'm sure yes, which is dinner, then a science block. Okay, now sage mint for although you would say that's a deal use case for after Onda functions actually don't use Amazon London functions in sage maker, and you ask yourself, Why aren't they using Lambda Stage Maker just telling you, you know you could use Lambda is a blue logic around sage maker. And that's because because London doesn't feed the use case. Okay, because lambda doesn't it is not capable of storing large content and she learning miles could be hundreds of megabytes or Landa is extremely slow. So you cannot do hi concurrency influencing with will land the function so essentially had to create another surveillance and college with a different name. Although if they just would have approved Landa, maybe it was one or a Swiss are So we're looking, We've took it, were taken the other approach We don't have the resources that I have so we created a monster virus Engine one servant attention does batch Frost is saying scream processing, consort, lots of data, even rocketeer services to all the different computation pattern with a single engine. And that's when you started taking all this trend because that's about yeah, we need two version our code. We need to, you know, record all our back into dependencies. And although yes, service doesn't so if we just had to go and tied more into the existing frameworks and you've looked at our frantically product called Tokyo Jupiter, which is essentially a scientist, right, some code in his data's passport book and then in clicks. One command called nuclear Deploy, it automatically compiles, is their science artifact in notebooks, that server and converted into a real hand function that can listen in on your next city. People can listen on streams and keep the scheduled on various timing. It could do magic. So many other things. So, and the interesting point is that if you think about their scientists there, not the farmers, because they should be a scientist on this's means that they actually have a bigger barrier to write in code. So if you serve in this framework that also automates the law daughter scaling the security provisioning of data, the versions of everything in fact fantasies, they just need to focus on writing other them's. It's actually a bigger back for the book. Now, if you just take service into them, Epstein's and they will tell you, Yeah, you know, we know how to explain, Doctor. We know all those things, so they're very their eyes is smaller than the value in the eyes of their scientists. So that's why we're actually seeing this appeal that those those people that essentially focus in life trying math and algorithms and all sorts of those sophisticated things they don't want to deal with. Coding and maintenance are refreshed. And by also doing so by oppression analyzing their cool for service, you can come back to market. You can address calle ability to avoid rewriting of code. All those big challenges the organizations are facing. >> You're gonna have to ask you, that's great. You have the tools to build, uh, help customers build serve Ellis functions for and so forth inside of Jupiter notebooks. And you mentioned Sage Maker, which is in a WS solution, which is up in coming in terms of supporting a full data science tool chain for pipeline development. You know, among teams you have a high profile partnerships with Microsoft and Google and Silver. Do you incorporate or integrator support either of these cloud providers own data science workbench offerings or third party offerings from? There's dozens of others in this space. What are you doing in terms of partnerships in that area? >> Yeah, obviously we don't want to lock us out from any of those, and, you know, if someone already has his work bench that I don't know my customers say they were locking me into your world back in our work when things are really cool because like our Jupiter is connected for real time connections to the database. And yes, serve other cool features that sentir getting like a huge speed boost we have. But that's on A with an within vigna of round Heads and Integration, which reviews are creating a pool of abuse from each of one of the data scientist running on African essentially launch clubs on this full of civilians whose off owning the abuse, which are extremely expensive, is you? No. But what we've done is because of her. The technology beside the actual debate engine is open source. We can accept it essentially just going any sold packages. And we demonstrate that to Google in danger. The others we can essentially got just go and load a bunch of packages into their work match and make it very proposed to what we provide in our manage platform. You know, not with the same performance levels. Well, functionality wise, the same function. >> So how can you name some reference customers that air using a guajillo inside a high performance data science work flows is ah, are you Are there you just testing the waters in that market for your technology? Your technology's already fairly mature. >> That says, I told you before, although you know, sort of changed messaging along the lines. We always did the same thing. So when we were continuous analytics and we've spoken like a year or two ago both some news cases that we Iran like, you know, tell cooperators and running really time, you know, health, a predictive health, monitoring their networks and or killing birds and those kind of things they all use algorithms. You control those those positions. We worked with Brian nailing customers so we can feed a lot of there there in real time maps and do from detection. And another applications are on all those things that we've noticed that all of the use cases that we're working with involved in a science in some cases, by the way, because of sort of politics that with once we've said, we have analytics for continuous analytics, we were serving send into sent into the analytic schools with the organization, which more focused on survey data warehouse because I know the case is still serve. They were saying, and I do. And after the people that build up can serve those data science applications and serve real time. Aye, aye. OK, Ianto. Business applications or more, the development and business people. This is also why we sort of change are our name, because we wanted to make it very clear that we're aren't the carnage is about building a new applications. It's not about the warehousing or faster queries. On a day of Eros is about generating value to the business, if you ask it a specific amplification. And we just announced two weeks in the investment off Samsung in Iguazu, former that essentially has two pillars beyond getting a few million dollars, It says. One thing is that they're adopted. No cure. Is there a service for the internal clouds on the second one is, we're working with them on a bunch of us, Della sighs. Well, use case is one of them was even quoted in enough would make would be There are no I can not say, but says she knows our real business application is really a history of those that involves, you know, in in intercepting data from your sister's customers, doing real time on analytics and responding really quickly. One thing that we've announced it because of youse off nuclear sub picture. We're done with inferior we actually what were pulled their performance. >> You're onto you see if you see a fair number of customers embedding machine learning inside of Realtor time Streaming stream computing back ones. This is the week of Flink forward here in San San Francisco. I I was at the event earlier this week and I I saw the least. They're presenting a fair amount of uptake of ml in sight of stream computing. Do you see that as being a coming meet Mainstream best practice. >> Streaming is still the analytics bucket. OK, because what we're looking for is a weakness which are more interactive, you know, think about like, uh, like a chatterbox or like doing a predictive analytic. It's all about streaming. Streaming is still, you know, it's faster flow data, but it's still, sir has delay the social. It's not responses, you know. It's not the aspect of legacy. Is that pickle in streaming? Okay, the aspect of throughput is is higher on streaming, but not necessarily the response that I think about sparks streaming. You know, it's good at crossing a lot of data. It's definitely not good at three to one on would put spark as a way to respond to user request on the Internet S O. We're doing screaming, and we see that growth. But think where we see the real growth is panic to reel of inches. The ones with the customer logs in and sends a request or working with telcos on scenarios where conditions of LA car, if the on the tracks and they settled all sorts of information are a real time invent train. Then the customer closer says, I need a second box and they could say No, this guy needs to go away to that customer because how many times you've gotten technician coming to your house and said I don't have that more exactly. You know, they have to send a different guy. So they were. How do you impact the business on three pillars of business? Okay, the three pillars are one is essentially improving your china Reducing the risk is essentially reducing your calls. Ask him. The other one is essentially audio, rap or customer from a more successful. So this is around front and application and whether it's box or are doing, you know our thing or those kind of us kisses. And also under you grow your market, which is a together on a recommendation in at this time. So all those fit you if you want, have hey, I incorporated in your business applications. In few years you're probably gonna be dead. I don't see any bits of sustained competition without incorporating so ability to integrate really real data with some customer data and essentially go and react >> changes. Something slightly you mentioned in video as a partner recently, Of course, he announced that few weeks ago. At their event on, they have recently acquired Melon ox, and I believe you used to be with Melon Axe, so I'd like to get your commentary on that acquisition or merger. >> Right? Yes, yes, I was VP Data Center man Ox. Like my last job, I feel good friends off off the Guider, including the CEO and the rest of the team with medicines. And last week I was in Israel's with talk to the media. Kansas. Well, I think it's a great merger if you think about men in Ox Head as sort of the best that breaking and storage technology answer Silicon Side and the video has the best view technologies, man. It's also acquired some compute cheap technologies, and they also very, very nice. Photonics technologies and men are today's being by all the club providers. Remiss Troll was essentially only those technical engagement would like the seizures and you know the rest of the gas. So now VP running with the computation engine in and minerals coming, we serve the rest of the pieces were our storage and make them a very strong player. And I think it's our threatens intel because think about it until they haven't really managed to high speed networking recently. They haven't really managed to come with Jiffy use at your combat and big technology, and so I think that makes a video, sort of Ah, pretty. You know, vendor and suspect. >> And another question is not related to that. But you're in Tel Aviv, Israel. And of course, Israel is famous for the start ups in the areas of machine learning. And so, especially with a focus on cyber security of the Israel, is like near the top of the world in terms of just the amount of brainpower focused on cyber security there. What are the hot ML machine? Learning related developments or innovations you see, coming out of Israel recently related to cybersecurity and distributed cloud environments, anything in terms of just basic are indeed technology that we should all be aware of that will be finding its way into mainstream Cloud and Cooper Netease and civilised environments. Going forward, your thoughts. >> Yes, I think there are different areas, you know, The guys in Israel also look at what happens in sort of the U. S. And their place in all the different things. I think with what's unique about us is a small country is always trying to think outside of the box because we know we cannot compete in a very large market. It would not have innovation. So that's what triggers this ten of innovation part because of all this tippy expects in the country. And also there's a lot of cyber, you know, it's time. I think I've seen one cool startup. There's also backed by our VC selling. Serve, uh, think about like face un recognition, critical technology off sent you a picture and make it such that you machine learning will not be able to recognize Recognize that, you know, sort of out of the cyber attack for image recognition. So that's something pretty unique that I've heard. But there are other starts working on all the aspects on their ops and information in our animal and also cyber automated cyber security and hope. Curious aspect. >> Right, Right. Thank you very much. Your own. This has been an excellent conversation, and we've really enjoyed hearing your comments. And Iguazu. It was a great company. Quite quite an innovator is always a pleasure to have you on the Cube. With that, I'm going to sign off. This is James Kabila's with wicked bond with your own haviv on dh er we bid You all have a good day. >> Thank you.