>> Announcer: Live from the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. It's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2018. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. This is theCUBE, live here in Mountain View, California, heart of Silicon Valley for Cisco's DevNet Create. This is their Cloud developer event. It's not the main Cisco DevNet which is more of the Cisco developer, this is much more Cloud Native DevOps. I'm joined with my cohost, Lauren Cooney and our next guest is Christine Yen, who is co-founder and Chief Product Officer of Honeycomb.io. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Great to have an entrepreneur and also Chief Product Officer because you blend in the entrepreneurial zeal, but also you got to build the product in the Cloud Native world. You guys done a few ventures before. First, take a minute and talk about what you guys do, what the company is built on, what's the mission? What's your vision? >> Absolutely, Honeycomb was built, we are an observability platform to help people find the unknown unknowns. Our whole thesis is that the world is getting more complicated. We have microservices and containers, and instead of having five application servers that we treated like pets in the past, we now have 500 containers running that are more like cattle and where any one of them might die at any given time. And we need our tools to be able to support us to figure out how and why. And when something happens, what happened and why, and how do we resolve it? We look around at the landscape and we feel like this dichotomy out there of, we have logging tools and we have metrics tools. And those really evolved from the fact that in 1995, we had to choose between grep or counters. And as technology evolved, those evolved to distribute grep or RDS. And then we have distribute grep with fancy UIs and well, fancy RDS with UIs. And Honeycomb, we were started a couple years ago. We really feel like what if you didn't have to choose? What if technology supported the power of having all the context there the way that you do with logs while still being able to provide instant analytics the way that you have with metrics? >> So the problem that you're solving is one, antiquated methodologies from old architectures and stacks if you will, to helping people save time, with the arcane tools. Is that the main premise? >> We want people to be able to debug their production systems. >> All right, so, beyond that now, the developer that you're targeting, can you take us through a day in the life of where you are helping them, vis a vis the old way? >> Absolutely, so I'll tell a story of when myself and my co-founder, Charity, were working together at PaaS. PaaS, for those who aren't familiar, used to be RD, a backend form of mobile apps. You can think of someone who just wants to build an iOS app, doesn't want to deal with data storage, user records, things like that. And PaaS started in 2011, got bought by Facebook in 2013, spun down very beginning of 2016. And in 2013, when the acquisition happened, we were supporting somewhere on the order of 60,000 different mobile apps. Each one of them could be totally different workload, totally different usage pattern, but any one of them might be experiencing problems. And again, in this old world, this pre-Honeycomb world, we had our top level metrics. We had latency, response, overall throughput, error rates, and we were very proud of them. We were very proud of these big dashboards on the wall that were green. And they were great, except when you had a customer write in being like, "Hey, PaaS is down." And we look at our dashboard we'd be like, "Nope, it's not down. "It must be network issues." >> John: That's on your end. >> Yeah, that's on your end. >> John: Not a good answer. >> Not a good answer, and especially not if that customer was Disney, right? When you're dealing with these high level metrics, and you're processing tens or hundreds of thousands of requests per second, when Disney comes in, they've got eight requests a second and they're seeing all of them fail. Even though those are really important, eight requests per second, you can't tease that out of your graphs. You can't figure out why they're failing, what's going on, how to fix it. You've got to dispatch an engineer to go add a bunch of if app ID equals Disney, track it down, figure out what's going on there. And it takes time. And when we got to Facebook, we were exposed to a type of tool that essentially inspired Honeycomb as it is today that let us capture all this data, capture a bunch of information about everything that was happening down to these eight requests per second. And when a customer complained, we could immediately isolate, oh, this one app, okay let's zoom in. For this one customer, this tiny customer, let's look at their throughput, error rates, latency. Oh, okay. Something looks funny there, let's break down by endpoint for this customer. And it's this iterative fast, highly granular investigation, that is where all of us are approaching today. With our systems getting more complicated you need to be able to isolate. Okay, I don't care about the 200s, I only care about the 500s, and within the 500s, then what's going on? What's going on with this server, with that set of containers? >> So this is basically an issue of data, unstructured data or have the ability to take this data in at the same time with your eye on the prize of instrumentation. And then having the ability to make that addressable and discoverable in real time, is that kind of? >> Yeah, we've been using the term observability to describe this feeling of, I need to be able to find unknown unknowns. And instrumentation is absolutely the tactic to observability of the strategy. It is how people will be able to get information out of their systems in a way that is relevant to their business. A common thing that we'll hear or people will ask, "Oh, can you ingest my nginx logs?" "Can you ingest my SQL logs?" Often, that's a great place to start, but really where are the problems in an application? Where are your problems in the system? Usually it's the places that are custom that the engineers wrote. And tools need to be able to support, providing information, providing graphs, providing analytics in a way that makes it easy for the folks who wrote the code to track down the problem and address them. >> It's a haystack of needles. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> They're all relevant but you don't know which needle you're going to need. >> Exactly. >> So, let me just get this. So I'm ducking out, just trying to understand 'cause this is super important because this is really the key to large scale Cloud ops, what we're talking about here. From a developer standpoint, and we just had a great guest on, talking about testing features and production which is really the important, people want to do that. And then, but for one person, but in production scale, huge problem, opportunity as well. So, if most people think of like, "Oh, I'll just ingest with Splunk," but that's a different, is that different? I mean, 'cause people think of Splunk and they think of Redshift and Kinesis on Amazon, they go, "Okay." Is that the solution? Are you guys different? Are you a tool? How do I understand you guys' context to those known solutions? >> First of all, explain the difference between ourselves and the Redshifts and big queries of the world, and then I'll talk about Splunk. We really view those tools as primarily things built for data scientists. They're in the big data realm, but they are very concerned with being 100% correct. They're concerned with fitting into big data tools and they often have an unfortunate delay in getting data in and making it acquirable. Honeycomb is 100% built for engineers. Engineers of people, the folks who are going to be on the hook for, "Hey, there's downtime, what's going on?" And in-- >> So once business benefits, more data warehouse like. >> Yeah. And what that means is that for Honeycomb, everything is real time. It's real time. We believe in recent data. If you're looking to get query data from a year ago we're not really the thing, but instead of waiting 20 minutes for a query over a huge volume of data, you wait 10 seconds, or it's 3:00 AM and you need to figure out what's happening right now, you can go from query to query, to query, to query, as you come up with hypotheses, validate them or invalidate them, and continue on your investigation path. So that's... >> That makes sense. >> Yeah. >> So data wrangling, doing queries, business intelligence, insights as a service, that's all that? >> Yeah. We almost, we played with and tossed the tagline BI for systems because we want that BI mentality of what's going on, let me investigate. But for the folks who need answers now, an approximate answer now is miles better than a perfect one-- >> And you can't keep large customers waiting, right? At the end of the day, you can't keep the large customers waiting. >> Well, it's also so complicated. The edge is very robust and diverse now. I mean, no-js is a lot of IO going on for instance. So let's just take an example. I had developer talking the other day with me about no-js. It's like, oh, someone's complaining but they're using Firefox. It's like, okay, different memory configuration. So the developer had to debug because the complaints were coming in. Everyone else was fine, but the one guy is complaining because he's on Firefox. Well, how many tabs does he have open? What's the memory look like? So like, this a weird thing, I mean, that's just a weird example, but that's just the kinds of diverse things that developers have to get on. And then where do they start? I mean. >> Absolutely. So, there's something we ran into or we saw our developers run into all the time at PaaS, right? These are mobile developers. They have to worry about not only which version of the app it is, they have to worry about which version of the app, using which version of RSDK on which version of the operating system, where any kind of strange combination of these could result in some terrible user experience. And these are things that don't really work well if you're relying on pre-aggregated 10 series system, like the evolution of the RDS, I mentioned. And for folks who are trying to address this, something like Splunk, these logging tools, frankly, a lot of these tools are built on storage engines that are intended for full text search. They're unstructured text, you're grepping over them, and then you're build indices and structure on top of that. >> There's some lag involved too in that. >> There's so much lag involved. And there's almost this negative feedback loop built in where if you want to add more data, if on each log line you want to start tracking browser user agent, you're going to incur not only extra storage costs, you're going to incur extra read time costs because you're reading that more data, even if you're don't even care about that on those queries. And you're probably incurring cost on the right time to maintain these indices. Honeycomb, we're a column store through and through. We do not care about your unstructured text logs, we really don't want them. We want you to structure your data-- >> John: Did you guys write your own column store or is that? >> We did write our own column store because ultimately there's nothing off the shelf that gave us the speed that we wanted. We wanted to be able to, Hey, sending us data blogs with 20, 50, 200 keys. But if you're running analysis and all you care about is a simple filter and account, you shouldn't have to pull in all this-- >> To become sort of like Ferrari, if you customize, it's really purpose built, is that what you guys did? >> That is. >> So talk about the dynamic, because now you're dealing with things like, I mean, I had a conversation with someone who's looking at say blockchain, where there's some costs involved, obviously writing to the blockchain. And this is not like a crypto thing it's more of a supply chain thing. They want visibility into latency and things of that nature. Does this sounds like you would fit there as a potential use case? Is that something that you guys thought of at all? >> It could absolutely be. I'm actually not super familiar with the blockchain or blockchain based applications but ultimately Honeycomb is intended for you to be able to answer questions about your system in a way that tends to stymie existing tools. So we see lots of people come to us from strange use cases who just want to be able to instrument, "Hey I have this custom logic. "I want to be able to look at what it's doing." And when a customer complains and my graphs are fine or when my graphs are complaining, being able to go in and figure out why. >> Take a minute to talk about the company you founded. How many employees funding, if you can talk about it. And use case customers you have now. And how do you guys engage? The service, is it, do I download code? Is it SaaS? I mean, you got all this great tech. What's the value proposition? >> I think I'll answer this-- >> John: Company first. >> All right. >> John: Status of the company. >> Sure. Honeycomb is about 25 people, 30 people. We raised a series A in January. We are about two and a half years old and we are very much SaaS of the future. We're very opinionated about a number of things and how we want customers to interact with us. So, we are SaaS only. We do offer a secure proxy option for folks who have PII concerns. We only take structured data. So, at our API, you can use whatever you want to slurp data from your system. But at our API, we want JSON. We do offer a wide variety of integrations, connectors, SDKs, to help you structure that data. But ultimately-- >> Do you provide SDKs to your customers? >> We do. So that if they want to instrument their application, we just have the niceties around like batching and doing things asynchronously so it doesn't block their application. But ultimately, so we try to meet folks where they're at, but it's 2016, it was 2017, 2018-- >> You have a hardened API, API pretty much defines your service from an inbound standpoint. Prices, cost, how does someone engage with you guys? When does someone know to engage? Where's the smoke signals? When is the house on fire? Is it like people are standing around? What's the problem? When does someone know to call you guys up at? >> People know to call us when they're having production problems that they can't solve. When it takes them way too long to go from there's an alert that went off or a customer complaint, to, "Oh, I found the problem, I can address it." We price based on storage. So we are a bunch of engineers, we try to keep the business side as simple as possible for better, for worse. And so, the more data you send us, the more it'll cost. If you want a lot of data, but stored for a short period of time, that will cost less than a lot of data stored for a long period of time. One of the things that we, another one of the approaches that is possibly more common in the big data world and less in the monitoring world is we talk a lot about sampling. Sampling as a way to control those costs. Say you are, Facebook, again, I'll return to that example. Facebook knew that in this world where lots and lots of things can go wrong at any point in time, you need to be able to store the actual context of a given event happening. Some unit of work, you want to keep track of all the pieces of metadata that make that piece of work unique. But at Facebook scale, you can't store every single one of them. So, all right, you start to develop these heuristics. What things are more interesting than others? Errors are probably more interesting than 200 okays. Okay. So we'll keep track of most errors, we'll store 1% of successful requests. Okay. Well, within that, what about errors? Okay. Well, things that time out are maybe more interesting than things that are permissioning errors. And you start to develop this sampling scheme that essentially maps to the interesting ness of the traffic that's flowing through your system. To throw out some numbers, I think-- >> Machine learning is perfect for that too. They can then use the sampling. >> Yeah. There's definitely some learning that can happen to determine what things should be dropped on the ground, what requests are perfectly representative of a large swath of things. And Instagram, used a tool like this inside Facebook. They stored something like 1/10 of a percent or a 1/100 of a percent of their requests. 'Cause simply, that was enough to give them a sketch of what representative traffic, what's going wrong, or what's weird that, and is worth digging into. >> Final question. What's your priorities for the product roadmap? What are you guys focused on now? Get some fresh funding, that's great. So expand the team, hiring probably. Like product, what's the focus on the product? >> Focus on the product is making this mindset of observability accessible to software engineers. Right, we're entering this world where more and more, it's the software engineers deploying their code, pushing things out in containers. And they're going to need to also develop this sense of, "Okay, well, how do I make sure "something's working in production? "How do I make sure something keeps working? "And how do I think about correctness "in this world where it's not just my component, "it's my component talking to these other folks' pieces?" We believe really strongly that the era of this single person in a room keeping everything up, is outdated. It's teams now, it's on call rotations. It's handing off the baton and sharing knowledge. One of the things that we're really trying to build into the product, that we're hoping that this is the year that we can really deliver on this, is this feeling of, I might not be the best debugger on the team or I might not be the best person, best constructor of graphs on the team, and John, you might be. But how can a tool help me as a new person on a team, learn from what you've done? How can a tool help me be like, Oh man, last week when John was on call, he ran into something around my SQL also. History doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. So how can I learn from the sequence of those things-- >> John: Something an expert system. >> Yeah. Like how can we help build experts? How can we raise entire teams to the level of the best debugger? >> And that's the beautiful thing with metadata, metadata is a wonderful thing. 'Cause Jeff Jonas said on the, he was a Cube alumni, entrepreneur, famous data entrepreneur, observation space is super critical for understanding how to make AI work. And that's to your point, having observation data, super important. And of course our observation space is all things. Here at DevNet Create, Christine, thanks for coming on theCUBE, spending the time. >> Thank you. >> Fascinating story, great new venture. Congratulations. >> Christine: Thank you. >> And tackling the world of making developers more productive in real time in production. Really making an impact to coders and sharing and learning. Here in theCUBE, we're doing our share, live coverage here in Mountain View, DevNet Create. We'll be back with more after this short break. (gentle music)

>>Hey, everyone. Welcome to the AWS partner, showcase women in tech. I'm Lisa Martin from the cube. And today we're gonna be looking into the exciting evolution of women in the tech industry. I'm going to be joined by Danielle GShock, the ISP PSA director at AWS. And we have the privilege of speaking with some wicked smart women from Teradata NetApp. JFI a 10th revolution group, company and honeycomb.io. We're gonna look at some of the challenges and biases that women face in the tech industry, especially in leadership roles. We're also gonna be exploring how are these tech companies addressing diversity, equity and inclusion across their organizations? How can we get more young girls into stem earlier in their careers? So many questions. So let's go ahead and get started. This is the AWS partner showcase women in tech. Hey, everyone. Welcome to the AWS partner showcase. This is season one, episode three. And I'm your host, Lisa Martin. I've got two great guests here with me to talk about women in tech. Hillary Ashton joins us the chief product officer at Terry data. And Danielle Greshaw is back with us, the ISV PSA director at AWS ladies. It's great to have you on the program talking through such an important topic, Hillary, let's go ahead and start with you. Give us a little bit of an intro into you, your background, and a little bit about Teradata. >>Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Hillary Ashton. I head up the products organization. So that's our engineering product management office of the CTO team. Um, at Teradata I've been with Terra data for just about three years and really have spent the last several decades. If I can say that in the data and analytics space, um, I spent time, uh, really focused on the value of, of analytics at scale, and I'm super excited to be here at Teradata. I'm also a mom of two teenage boys. And so as we talk about women in tech, I think there's, um, uh, lots of different dimensions and angles of that. Um, at Teradata, we are partnered very deeply with AWS and happy to talk a little bit more about that, um, throughout this discussion as well. >>Excellent. A busy mom of two teen boys. My goodness. I don't know how you do it. Let's now look, Atter data's views of diversity, equity and inclusion. It's a, the, it's a topic that's important to everyone, but give us a snapshot into some of the initiatives that Terra data has there. >>Yeah, I have to say, I am super proud to be working at Teradata. We have gone through, uh, a series of transformations, but I think it starts with culture and we are deeply committed to diversity, equity and inclusion. It's really more than just a statement here. It's just how we live our lives. Um, and we use, uh, data to back that up. Um, in fact, we were named one of the world's most ethical companies for the 13th year in a row. Um, and all of our executive leadership team has taken an oath around D E and I that's available on LinkedIn as well. So, um, in fact, our leadership team reporting into the CEO is just about 50 50, um, men and women, which is the first time I've worked in a company where that has been the case. And I think as individuals, we can probably appreciate what a huge difference that makes in terms of not just being a representative, but truly being on a, on a diverse and equitable, uh, team. And I think it really, uh, improves the behaviors that we can bring, um, to our office. >>There's so much value in that. It's I impressive to see about a 50 50 at the leadership level. That's not something that we see very often. Tell me how you, Hillary, how did you get into tech? Were you an engineering person by computer science, or did you have more of a zigzaggy path to where you are now? >>I'm gonna pick door number two and say more zigzaggy. Um, I started off thinking, um, that I started off as a political science major or a government major. Um, and I was probably destined to go into, um, the law field, but actually took a summer course at Harvard. I did not go to Harvard, but I took a summer course there and learned a lot about multimedia and some programming. And that really set me on a trajectory of how, um, data and analytics can truly provide value and, and outcomes to our customers. Um, and I have been living that life ever since. Um, I graduated from college, so, um, I was very excited and privileged in my early career to, uh, work in a company where I found after my first year that I was managing, um, uh, kids, people who had graduated from Harvard business school and from MIT Sloan school. Um, and that was super crazy, cuz I did not go to either of those schools, but I sort of have always had a natural knack for how do you take technology and, and the really cool things that technology can do, but because I'm not a programmer by training, I'm really focused on the value that I'm able to help, um, organizations really extract value, um, from the technology that we can create, which I think is fantastic. >>I think there's so much value in having a zigzag path into tech. You bring Danielle, you and I have talked about this many times you bring such breadth and such a wide perspective. That really is such a value. Add to teams. Danielle, talk to us from AWS's perspective about what can be done to encourage more young women to get and under and underrepresented groups as well, to get into stem and stay. >>Yeah, and this is definitely a challenge as we're trying to grow our organization and kind of shift the numbers. And the reality is, especially with the more senior folks in our organization, unless you bring folks with a zigzag path, the likelihood is you won't be able to change the numbers that you have. Um, but for me, it's really been about, uh, looking at that, uh, the folks who are just graduating college, maybe in other roles where they are adjacent to technology and to try to spark their interest and show that yes, they can do it because oftentimes it's really about believing in themselves and, and realizing that we need folks with all sorts of different perspectives to kind of come in, to be able to help really, um, provide both products and services and solutions for all types of people inside of technology, which requires all sorts of perspectives. >>Yeah, the diverse perspectives. There's so much value and there's a lot of data that demonstrates how much value revenue impact organizations can make by having diversity, especially at the leadership level. Hillary, let's go back to you. We talked about your career path. You talked about some of the importance of the focus on de and I at Tarana, but what are, what do you think can be done to encourage, to sorry, to recruit more young women and under groups into tech, any, any carrot there that you think are really important that we need to be dangling more of? >>Yeah, absolutely. And I'll build on what Danielle just said. I think the, um, bringing in diverse understandings, um, of, of customer outcomes, I mean, I, the we've really moved from technology for technology's sake and I know AWS and entirety to have had a lot of conversations on how do we drive customer outcomes that are differentiated in the market and really being customer centric and technology is wonderful. You can do wonderful things with it. You can do not so wonderful things with it as well, but unless you're really focused on the outcomes and what customers are seeking, um, technology is not hugely valuable. And so I think bringing in people who understand, um, voice of customer who understand those outcomes, and those are not necessarily the, the, the folks who are PhD in mathematics or statistics, um, those can be people who understand a day in the life of a data scientist or a day in the life of a citizen data scientist. And so really working to bridge the high impact technology with the practical kind of usability, usefulness of data and analytics in our cases, I think is something that we need more of in tech and sort of demystifying tech and freeing technology so that everybody can use it and having a really wide range of people who understand not just the bits and bites and, and how to program, but also the value in outcomes that technology through data and analytics can drive. >>Yeah. You know, we often talk about the hard skills, but this, their soft skills are equally, if not more important that even just being curious, being willing to ask questions, being not afraid to be vulnerable, being able to show those sides of your personality. I think those are important for, for young women and underrepresented groups to understand that those are just as important as some of the harder technical skills that can be taught. >>That's right. >>What do you think about from a bias perspective, Hillary, what have you seen in the tech industry and how do you think we can leverage culture as you talked about to help dial down some of the biases that are going on? >>Yeah. I mean, I think first of all, and, and there's some interesting data out there that says that 90% of the population, which includes a lot of women have some inherent bias in their day, day behaviors when it comes to to women in particular. But I'm sure that that is true across all kinds of, of, um, diverse and underrepresented folks in, in the world. And so I think acknowledging that we have bias and actually really learning how, what that can look like, how that can show up. We might be sitting here and thinking, oh, of course I don't have any bias. And then you realize that, um, as you, as you learn more about, um, different types of bias, that actually you do need to kind of, um, account for that and change behaviors. And so I think learning is sort of a fundamental, um, uh, grounding for all of us to really know what bias looks like, know how it shows up in each of us. >>Um, if we're leaders know how it shows up in our teams and make sure that we are constantly getting better, we're, we're not gonna be perfect anytime soon. But I think being on a path to improvement to overcoming bias, um, is really, is really critical. And part of that is really starting the dialogue, having the conversations, holding ourselves and each other accountable, um, when things aren't going in, in a, in a Coptic way and being able to talk openly about that, that felt, um, like maybe there was some bias in that interaction and how do we, um, how do we make good on that? How do we change our, our behavior? Fundamentally of course, data and analytics can have some bias in it as well. And so I think as we look at the, the technology aspect of bias, um, looking at at ethical AI, I think is a, a really important, uh, additional area. And I'm sure we could spend another 20 minutes talking about that, but I, I would be remiss if I didn't talk more about sort of the bias, um, and the over the opportunity to overcome bias in data and analytics as well. >>Yeah. The opportunity to overcome it is definitely there you bring up a couple of really good points, Hillary. It, it starts with awareness. We need to be aware that there are inherent biases in data in thought. And also to your other point, hold people accountable ourselves, our teammates, that's critical to being able to, to dial that back down, Daniel, I wanna get your perspective on, on your view of women in leadership roles. Do you think that we have good representation or we still have work to do in there? >>I definitely think in both technical and product roles, we definitely have some work to do. And, you know, when I think about, um, our partnership with Teradata, part of the reason why it's so important is, you know, Teradata solution is really the brains of a lot of companies. Um, you know, the what, how, what they differentiate on how they figure out insights into their business. And it's, it's all about the product itself and the data and the same is true at AWS. And, you know, we really could do some work to have some more women in these technical roles, as well as in the product, shaping the products. Uh, just for all the reasons that we just kind of talked about over the last 10 minutes, um, in order to, you know, move bias out of our, um, out of our solutions and also to just build better products and have, uh, better, you know, outcomes for customers. So I think there's a bit of work to do still. >>I agree. There's definitely a bit of work to do, and it's all about delivering those better outcomes for customers at the end of the day, we need to figure out what the right ways are of doing that and working together in a community. Um, we've had obviously a lot had changed in the last couple of years, Hillary, what's your, what have you seen in terms of the impact that the pandemic has had on this status of women in tech? Has it been a pro is silver lining the opposite? What are you seeing? >>Yeah, I mean, certainly there's data out there that tells us factually that it has been, um, very difficult for women during COVID 19. Um, women have, uh, dropped out of the workforce for a wide range of, of reasons. Um, and, and that I think is going to set us back all of us, the, the Royal us or the Royal we back, um, years and years. Um, and, and it's very unfortunate because I think we we're at a time when we're making great progress and now to see COVID, um, setting us back in, in such a powerful way. I think there's work to be done to understand how do we bring people back into the workforce. Um, how do we do that? Understanding work life balance, better understanding virtual and remote, working better. I think in the technology sector, um, we've really embraced, um, hybrid virtual work and are, are empowering people to bring their whole selves to work. >>And I think if anything, these, these zoom calls have, um, both for the men and the women on my team. In fact, I would say much more. So for the men on my team, I'm seeing, I was seeing more kids in the background, more kind of split childcare duties, more ability to start talking about, um, other responsibilities that maybe they had, uh, especially in the early days of COVID where maybe daycares were shut down. And, um, you had, you know, maybe a parent was sick. And so we saw quite a lot of, um, people bringing their whole selves to the office, which I think was, was really wonderful. Um, uh, even our CEO saw some of that. And I think, um, that that really changes the dialogue, right? It changes it to maybe scheduling meetings at a time when, um, people can do it after daycare drop off. >>Um, and really allowing that both for men and for women makes it better for, for women overall. So I would like to think that this hybrid working, um, environment and that this, um, uh, whole view into somebody's life that COVID has really provided for probably for white collar workers, if I'm being honest for, um, people who are in a, at a better point of privilege, they don't necessarily have to go into the office every day. I would like to think that tech can lead the way in, um, you know, coming out of the, the old COVID. I don't know if we have a new COVID coming, but the old COVID and really leading the way for women and for people, um, to transform how we do work, um, leveraging data and analytics, but also, um, overcoming some of the, the disparities that exist for women in particular in the workforce. >>Yeah, I think there's, there's like we say, there's a lot of opportunity there and I like your point of hopefully tech can be that guiding light that shows us this can be done. We're all humans at the end of the day. And ultimately if we're able to have some sort of work life balance, everything benefits, our work or more productive, higher performing teams impacts customers, right? There's so much value that can be gleaned from, from that hybrid model and embracing for humans. We need to be able to, to work when we can, we've learned that you don't have to be, you know, in an office 24, 7 commuting, crazy hours flying all around the world. We can get a lot of things done in a ways that fit people's lives rather than taking command over it. Wanna get your advice, Hillary, if you were to talk to your younger self, what would be some of the key pieces of advice you would say? And Danielle and I have talked about this before, and sometimes we, we would both agree on like, ask more questions. Don't be afraid to raise your hand, but what advice would you give your younger self and that younger generation in terms of being inspired to get into tech >>Oh, inspired and being in tech? You know, I think looking at technology as, in some ways, I feel like we do a disservice to, um, inclusion when we talk about stem, cuz I think stem can be kind of daunting. It can be a little scary for people for younger people. When I, when I go and talk to folks at schools, I think stem is like, oh, all the super smart kids are over there. They're all like maybe they're all men. And so, um, it's, it's a little, uh, intimidating. Um, and stem is actually, you know, especially for, um, people joining the workforce today. It's actually how you've been living your life since you were born. I mean, you know, stem inside and out because you walk around with a phone and you know how to get your internet working and like that is technology right. >>Fundamentally. And so demystifying stem as something that is around how we, um, actually make our, our lives useful and, and, and how we can change outcomes. Um, through technology I think is maybe a different lens to put on it. So, and there's absolutely for, for hard sciences, there's absolutely a, a great place in the world for folks who wanna pursue that and men and women can do that. So I, I don't want to be, um, uh, setting the wrong expectations, but I, I think stem is, is very holistic in, um, in the change that's happening globally for us today across economies, across global warming, across all kinds of impactful issues. And so I think everybody who's interested in, in some of that world change can participate in stem. It just may be through a different, through a different lens than how we classically talk about stem. >>So I think there's great opportunity to demystify stem. I think also, um, what I would tell my younger self is choose your bosses wisely. And that sounds really funny. That sounds like inside out almost, but I think choose the person that you're gonna work for in your first five to seven years. And it might be more than one person, but be, be selective, maybe be a little less selective about the exact company or the exact title. I think picking somebody that, you know, we talk about mentors and we talk about sponsors and those are important. Um, but the person you're gonna spend in your early career, a lot of your day with a lot, who's gonna influence a lot of the outcomes for you. That is the person that you, I think want to be more selective about, um, because that person can set you up for success and give you opportunities and set you on course to be, um, a standout or that person can hold you back. >>And that person can put you in the corner and not invite you to the meetings and not give you those opportunities. And so we're in an economy today where you actually can, um, be a little bit picky about who you go and work for. And I would encourage my younger self. I actually, I just lucked out actually, but I think that, um, my first boss really set me, um, up for success, gave me a lot of feedback and coaching. Um, and some of it was really hard to hear, but it really set me up for, for, um, the, the path that I've been on ever since. So it, that would be my advice. >>I love that advice. I it's brilliant. I didn't think it choose your bosses wisely. Isn't something that we primarily think about. I think a lot of people think about the big name companies that they wanna go after and put on a resume, but you bring up a great point. And Danielle and I have talked about this with other guests about mentors and sponsors. I think that is brilliant advice and also more work to do to demystify stem. But luckily we have great family leaders like the two of you helping us to do that. Ladies, I wanna thank you so much for joining me on the program today and talking through what you're seeing in de and I, what your companies are doing and the opportunities that we have to move the needle. Appreciate your time. >>Thank you so much. Great to see you, Danielle. Thank you Lisa, to see you. >>My pleasure for my guests. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the AWS partner showcase season one, episode three. Hey everyone. Welcome to the AWS partner showcase. This is season one, episode three, with a focus on women in tech. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. I've got two guests here with me, Sue Peretti, the EVP of global AWS strategic alliances at Jefferson Frank, a 10th revolution group company, and Danielle brushoff. One of our cube alumni joins us ISV PSA director, ladies. It's great to have you on the program talking about a, a topic that is near and dear to my heart at women in tech. >>Thank you, Lisa. >>So let's go ahead and start with you. Give the audience an understanding of Jefferson Frank, what does the company do and about the partnership with AWS? >>Sure. Um, so let's just start, uh, Jefferson Frank is a 10th revolution group company. And if you look at it, it's really talent as a service. So Jefferson Frank provides talent solutions all over the world for AWS clients, partners and users, et cetera. And we have a sister company called revelent, which is a talent creation company within the AWS ecosystem. So we create talent and put it out in the ecosystem. Usually underrepresented groups over half of them are women. And then we also have, uh, a company called rubra, which is a delivery model around AWS technology. So all three companies fall under the 10th revolution group organization. >>Got it. Danielle, talk to me a little bit about from AWS's perspective and the focus on hiring more women in technology and about the partnership. >>Yes. I mean, this has definitely been a focus ever since I joined eight years ago, but also just especially in the last few years we've grown exponentially and our customer base has changed. You know, we wanna have, uh, an organization interacting with them that reflects our customers, right. And, uh, we know that we need to keep pace with that even with our growth. And so we've very much focused on early career talent, um, bringing more women and underrepresented minorities into the organization, sponsoring those folks, promoting them, uh, giving them paths to growth, to grow inside of the organization. I'm an example of that. Of course I benefit benefited from it, but also I try to bring that into my organization as well. And it's super important. >>Tell me a little bit about how you benefited from that, Danielle. >>Um, I just think that, um, you know, I I've been able to get, you know, a seat at the table. I think that, um, I feel as though I have folks supporting me, uh, very deeply and wanna see me succeed. And also they put me forth as, um, you know, a, represent a representative, uh, to bring more women into the organization as well. And I think, um, they give me a platform, uh, in order to do that, um, like this, um, but also many other, uh, spots as well. Um, and I'm happy to do it because I feel that, you know, if you always wanna feel that you're making a difference in your job, and that is definitely a place where I get that time and space in order to be that representative to, um, bring more, more women into benefiting from having careers in technology, which there's a lot of value there, >>A lot of value. Absolutely. So back over to you, what are some of the trends that you are seeing from a gender diversity perspective in tech? We know the, the numbers of women in technical positions, uh, right. There's so much data out there that shows when girls start dropping up, but what are some of the trends that you are seeing? >>So it's, that's a really interesting question. And, and Lisa, I had a whole bunch of data points that I wanted to share with you, but just two weeks ago, uh, I was in San Francisco with AWS at the, at the summit. And we were talking about this. We were talking about how we can collectively together attract more women, not only to, uh, AWS, not only to technology, but to the AWS ecosystem in particular. And it was fascinating because I was talking about, uh, the challenges that women have and how hard to believe, but about 5% of women who were in the ecosystem have left in the past few years, which was really, really, uh, something that shocked everyone when we, when we were talking about it, because all of the things that we've been asking for, for instance, uh, working from home, um, better pay, uh, more flexibility, uh, better maternity leave seems like those things are happening. >>So we're getting what we want, but people are leaving. And it seemed like the feedback that we got was that a lot of women still felt very underrepresented. The number one thing was that they, they couldn't be, you can't be what you can't see. So because they, we feel collectively women, uh, people who identify as women just don't see enough women in leadership, they don't see enough mentors. Um, I think I've had great mentors, but, but just not enough. I'm lucky enough to have a pres a president of our company, the president of our company, Zoe Morris is a woman and she does lead by example. So I'm very lucky for that. And Jefferson, Frank really quickly, we put out a hiring a salary and hiring guide a career and hiring guide every year and the data points. And that's about 65 pages long. No one else does it. Uh, it gives an abundance of information around, uh, everything about the AWS ecosystem that a hiring manager might need to know. But there is what, what I thought was really unbelievable was that only 7% of the people that responded to it were women. So my goal, uh, being that we have such a very big global platform is to get more women to respond to that survey so we can get as much information and take action. So >>Absolutely 7%. So a long way to go there. Danielle, talk to me about AWS's focus on women in tech. I was watching, um, Sue, I saw that you shared on LinkedIn, the Ted talk that the CEO and founder of girls and co did. And one of the things that she said was that there was a, a survey that HP did some years back that showed that, um, 60%, that, that men will apply for jobs if they only meet 60% of the list of requirements. Whereas with females, it's far, far less, we've all been in that imposter syndrome, um, conundrum before. But Danielle, talk to us about AWS, a specific focus here to get these numbers up. >>I think it speaks to what Susan was talking about, how, you know, I think we're approaching it top and bottom, right? We're looking out at what are the, who are the women who are currently in technical positions and how can we make AWS an attractive place for them to work? And that's all a lot of the changes that we've had around maternity leave and, and those types of things, but then also, um, more flexible working, uh, can, you know, uh, arrangements, but then also, um, early, how can we actually impact early, um, career women and actually women who are still in school. Um, and our training and certification team is doing amazing things to get, um, more girls exposed to AWS, to technology, um, and make it a less intimidating place and have them look at employees from AWS and say like, oh, I can see myself in those people. >>Um, and kind of actually growing the viable pool of candidates. I think, you know, we're, we're limited with the viable pool of candidates, um, when you're talking about mid to late career. Um, but how can we, you know, help retrain women who are coming back into the workplace after, you know, having a child and how can we help with military women who want to, uh, or underrepresented minorities who wanna move into AWS, we have a great military program, but then also just that early high school, uh, career, you know, getting them in, in that trajectory. >>Sue, is that something that Jefferson Frank is also able to help with is, you know, getting those younger girls before they start to feel there's something wrong with me. I don't get this. Talk to us about how Jefferson Frank can help really drive up that in those younger girls. >>Uh, let me tell you one other thing to refer back to that summit that we did, uh, we had breakout sessions and that was one of the topics. What can cuz that's the goal, right? To make sure that, that there are ways to attract them. That's the goal? So some of the things that we talked about was mentoring programs, uh, from a very young age, some people said high school, but then we said even earlier, goes back to you. Can't be what you can't see. So, uh, getting mentoring programs, uh, established, uh, we also talked about some of the great ideas was being careful of how we speak to women using the right language to attract them. And some, there was a teachable moment for, for me there actually, it was really wonderful because, um, an African American woman said to me, Sue and I, I was talking about how you can't be what you can't see. >>And what she said was Sue, it's really different. Um, for me as an African American woman, uh, or she identified, uh, as nonbinary, but she was relating to African American women. She said, your white woman, your journey was very different than my journey. And I thought, this is how we're going to learn. I wasn't offended by her calling me out at all. It was a teachable moment. And I thought I understood that, but those are the things that we need to educate people on those, those moments where we think we're, we're saying and doing the right thing, but we really need to get that bias out there. So here at Jefferson, Frank, we're, we're trying really hard to get that careers and hiring guide out there. It's on our website to get more women, uh, to talk to it, but to make suggestions in partnership with AWS around how we can do this mentoring, we have a mentor me program. We go around the country and do things like this. We, we try to get the education out there in partnership with AWS. Uh, we have a, a women's group, a women's leadership group, uh, so much that, that we do, and we try to do it in partnership with AWS. >>Danielle, can you comment on the impact that AWS has made so far, um, regarding some of the trends and, and gender diversity that Sue was talking about? What's the impact that's been made so far with this partnership? >>Well, I mean, I think just being able to get more of the data and have awareness of leaders, uh, on how <laugh>, you know, it used to be a, a couple years back, I would feel like sometimes the, um, uh, solving to bring more women into the organization was kind of something that folks thought, oh, this is Danielle is gonna solve this. You know? And I think a lot of folks now realize, oh, this is something that we all need to solve for. And a lot of my colleagues who maybe a couple years ago, didn't have any awareness or didn't even have the tools to do what they needed to do in order to improve the statistics on their, or in their organizations. Now actually have those tools and are able to kind of work with, um, work with companies like Susan's work with Jefferson Frank in order to actually get the data and actually make good decisions and feel as though, you know, they, they often, these are not lived experiences for these folks, so they don't know what they don't know. And by providing data and providing awareness and providing tooling and then setting goals, I think all of those things have really turned, uh, things around in a very positive way. >>And so you bring up a great point about from a diversity perspective, what is Jefferson Frank doing to, to get those data points up, to get more women of, of all well, really underrepresented minorities to, to be able to provide that feedback so that you can, can have the data and gleamy insights from it to help companies like AWS on their strategic objectives. >>Right? So as I, when I go back to that higher that, uh, careers in hiring guide, that is my focus today, really because the more data that we have, I mean, the, and the data takes, uh, you know, we need people to participate in order to, to accurately, uh, get a hold of that data. So that's why we're asking, uh, we're taking the initiative to really expand our focus. We are a global organization with a very, very massive database all over the world, but if people don't take action, then we can't get the right. The, the, the data will not be as accurate as we'd like it to be. Therefore take better action. So what we're doing is we're asking people all over the, all over the world to participate on our website, Jefferson frank.com, the se the high, uh, in the survey. So we can learn as much as we can. >>7% is such a, you know, Danielle and I we're, we've got to partner on this just to sort of get that message out there, get more data so we can execute, uh, some of the other things that we're doing. We're, we're partnering in. As I mentioned, more of these events, uh, we're, we're doing around the summits, we're gonna be having more ed and I events and collecting more information from women. Um, like I said, internally, we do practice what we preach and we have our own programs that are, that are out there that are within our own company where the women who are talking to candidates and clients every single day are trying to get that message out there. So if I'm speaking to a client or one of our internal people are speaking to a client or a candidate, they're telling them, listen, you know, we really are trying to get these numbers up. >>We wanna attract as many people as we can. Would you mind going to this, uh, hiring guide and offering your own information? So we've gotta get that 7% up. We've gotta keep talking. We've gotta keep, uh, getting programs out there. One other thing I wanted to Danielle's point, she mentioned, uh, women in leadership, the number that we gathered was only 9% of women in leadership within the AWS ecosystem. We've gotta get that number up, uh, as well because, um, you know, I know for me, when I see people like Danielle or, or her peers, it inspires me. And I feel like, you know, I just wanna give back, make sure I send the elevator back to the first floor and bring more women in to this amazing ecosystem. >>Absolutely. That's not that metaphor I do too, but we, but to your point to get that those numbers up, not just at AWS, but everywhere else we need, it's a help me help use situation. So ladies underrepresented minorities, if you're watching go to the Jefferson Frank website, take the survey, help provide the data so that the woman here that are doing this amazing work, have it to help make decisions and have more of females and leadership roles or underrepresented minorities. So we can be what we can see. Ladies, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing what you guys are doing together to partner on this important. Cause >>Thank you for having me, Leah, Lisa, >>Thank you. My pleasure for my guests. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes coverage of the AWS partner showcase. Thanks for your time. Hey everyone. Welcome to the AWS partner showcase season one, episode three women in tech. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. We've got two female rock stars here with me next. Stephanie Curry joins us the worldwide head of sales and go to market strategy for AWS at NetApp and Danielle GShock is back one of our QM ISV PSA director at AWS. Looking forward to a great conversation, ladies, about a great topic, Stephanie, let's go ahead and start with you. Give us an overview of your story, how you got into tech and what inspired you. >>Thanks so much, Lisa and Danielle. It's great to be on this show with you. Um, thank you for that. Uh, my name's Stephanie cur, as Lisa mentioned, I'm the worldwide head of sales for, uh, AWS at NetApp and run a global team of sales people that sell all things AWS, um, going back 25 years now, uh, when I first started my career in tech, it was kind of by accident. Um, I come from a different background. I have a business background and a technical background from school, um, but had been in a different career and I had an opportunity to try something new. Um, I had an ally really that reached out to me and said, Hey, you'd be great for this role. And I thought, I'd take a chance. I was curious. Um, and, uh, it, it turned out to be a 25 year career, um, that I'm really, really excited about and, and, um, really thankful for that person, for introducing me to the, to the industry >>25 years in counting. I'm sure Danielle, we've talked about your background before. So what I wanna focus on with you is the importance of diversity for high performance. I know what a machine AWS is, and Stephanie'll come back to you with the same question, but talk about that, Danielle, from your perspective, that importance, um, for diversity to drive the performance. >>Yeah. Yeah. I truly believe that, you know, in order to have high performing teams, that you have to have people from all different types of backgrounds and experiences. And we do find that oftentimes being, you know, field facing, if we're not reflecting our customers and connecting with them deeply, um, on, on the levels that they're at, we, we end up missing them. And so for us, it's very important to bring people of lots of different technical backgrounds experiences. And of course, both men, women, and underrepresented minorities and put that forth to our customers, um, in order to make that connection and to end up with better outcomes. So >>Definitely it's all about outcomes, Stephanie, your perspective and NetApp's perspective on diversity for creating highly performant teams and organizations. >>I really aligned with Danielle on the comment she made. And in addition to that, you know, just from building teams in my, um, career know, we've had three times as many women on my team since we started a year ago and our results are really showing in that as well. Um, we find the teams are stronger, they're more collaborative and to Danielle's point really reflective, not only our partners, but our customers themselves. So this really creates connections, which are really, really important to scale our businesses and, and really, uh, meet the customer where they're at as well. So huge proponent of that ourselves, and really finding that we have to be intentional in our hiring and intentional in how we attract diversity to our teams. >>So Stephanie let's stay with you. So a three X increase in women on the team in a year, especially the kind of last year that we've had is really incredible. I, I like your, I, your thoughts on there needs to be a, there needs to be focus and, and thought in how teams are hired. Let's talk about attracting and retaining those women now, especially in sales roles, we all know the number, the percentages of women in technical roles, but what are some of the things that, that you do Stephanie, that NetApp does to attract and retain women in those sales roles? >>The, the attracting part's really interesting. And we find that, you know, you, you read the stats and I'd say in my experience, they're also true in the fact that, um, a lot of women would look at a job description and say, I can't do a hundred percent of that, that, so I'm not even going to apply with the women that we've attracted to our team. We've actually intentionally reached out and targeted those people in a good way, um, to say, Hey, we think you've got what it takes. Some of the feedback I've got from those women are, gosh, I didn't think I could ever get this role. I didn't think I had the skills to do that. And they've been hired and they are doing a phenomenal job. In addition to that, I think a lot of the feedback I've got from these hires are, Hey, it's an aggressive sales is aggressive. Sales is competitive. It's not an environment that I think I can be successful in. And what we're showing them is bring those softer skills around collaboration, around connection, around building teams. And they do, they do bring a lot of that to the team. Then they see others like them there and they know they can be successful cuz they see others like them on the team, >>The whole concept of we can't be what we can't see, but we can be what we can't see is so important. You said a couple things, Stephanie, that really stuck with me. And one of them was an interview on the Cub I was doing, I think a couple weeks ago, um, about women in tech. And the stat that we talked about was that women will apply will not apply for a job unless they meet 100% of the skills and the requirements that it's listed, but men will, if they only meet 60. And I, that just shocked me that I thought, you know, I, I can understand that imposter syndrome is real. It's a huge challenge, but the softer skills, as you mentioned, especially in the last two years, plus the ability to communicate, the ability to collaborate are incredibly important to, to drive that performance of any team of any business. >>Absolutely. >>Danielle, talk to me about your perspective and AWS as well for attracting and retaining talent. And, and, and particularly in some of those challenging roles like sales that as Stephanie said, can be known as aggressive. >>Yeah, for sure. I mean, my team is focused on the technical aspect of the field and we definitely have an uphill battle for sure. Um, two things we are focused on first and foremost is looking at early career women and that how we, how can we bring them into this role, whether in they're in support functions, uh, cl like answering the phone for support calls, et cetera, and how, how can we bring them into this organization, which is a bit more strategic, more proactive. Um, and then the other thing that as far as retention goes, you know, sometimes there will be women who they're on a team and there are no other women on that team. And, and for me, it's about building community inside of AWS and being part of, you know, we have women on solution architecture organizations. We have, uh, you know, I just personally connect people as well and to like, oh, you should meet this person. Oh, you should talk to that person. Because again, sometimes they can't see someone on their team like them and they just need to feel anchored, especially as we've all been, you know, kind of stuck at home, um, during the pandemic, just being able to make those connections with women like them has been super important and just being a, a long tenured Amazonian. Um, that's definitely one thing I'm able to, to bring to the table as well. >>That's so important and impactful and spreads across organizations in a good way. Daniel let's stick with you. Let's talk about some of the allies that you've had sponsors, mentors that have really made a difference. And I said that in past tense, but I also mean in present tense, who are some of those folks now that really inspire you? >>Yeah. I mean, I definitely would say that one of my mentors and someone who, uh, ha has been a sponsor of my career has, uh, Matt YK, who is one of our control tower GMs. He has really sponsored my career and definitely been a supporter of mine and pushed me in positive ways, which has been super helpful. And then other of my business partners, you know, Sabina Joseph, who's a cube alum as well. She definitely has been, was a fabulous partner to work with. Um, and you know, between the two of us for a period of time, we definitely felt like we could, you know, conquer the world. It's very great to go in with a, with another strong woman, um, you know, and, and get things done, um, inside of an organization like AWS. >>Absolutely. And S I've, I've agreed here several times. So Stephanie, same question for you. You talked a little bit about your kind of, one of your, uh, original early allies in the tech industry, but talk to me about allies sponsors, mentors who have, and continue to make a difference in your life. >>Yeah. And, you know, I think it's a great differentiation as well, right? Because I think that mentors teach us sponsors show us the way and allies make room for us at the table. And that is really, really key difference. I think also as women leaders, we need to make room for others at the table too, and not forget those softer skills that we bring to the table. Some of the things that Danielle mentioned as well about making those connections for others, right. And making room for them at the table. Um, some of my allies, a lot of them are men. Brian ABI was my first mentor. Uh, he actually is in the distribution, was in distribution, uh, with advent tech data no longer there. Um, Corey Hutchinson, who's now at Hashi Corp. He's also another ally of mine and remains an ally of mine, even though we're not at the same company any longer. Um, so a lot of these people transcend careers and transcend, um, um, different positions that I've held as well and make room for us. And I think that's just really critical when we're looking for allies and when allies are looking for us, >>I love how you described allies, mentors and sponsors Stephanie. And the difference. I didn't understand the difference between a mentor and a sponsor until a couple of years ago. Do you talk with some of those younger females on your team so that when they come into the organization and maybe they're fresh outta college, or maybe they've transitioned into tech so that they can also learn from you and understand the importance and the difference between the allies and the sponsors and the mentors? >>Absolutely. And I think that's really interesting because I do take, uh, an extra, uh, approach an extra time to really reach out to the women that have joined the team. One. I wanna make sure they stay right. I don't want them feeling, Hey, I'm alone here and I need to, I need to go do something else. Um, and they are located around the world, on my team. They're also different age groups, so early in career, as well as more senior people and really reaching out, making sure they know that I'm there. But also as Danielle had mentioned, connecting them to other people in the community that they can reach out to for those same opportunities and making room for them >>Make room at the table. It's so important. And it can, you never know what a massive difference and impact you can make on someone's life. And I, and I bet there's probably a lot of mentors and sponsors and allies of mine that would be surprised to know, uh, the massive influence they've had Daniel back over. Let's talk about some of the techniques that you employ, that AWS employees to make the work environment, a great place for women to really thrive and, and be retained as Stephanie was saying. Of course that's so important. >>Yeah. I mean, definitely I think that the community building, as well as we have a bit more programmatic mentorship, um, we're trying to get to the point of having a more programmatic sponsorship as well. Um, but I think just making sure that, um, you know, both everything from, uh, recruit to onboard to ever boarding that, uh, they they're the women who come into the organization, whether it's they're coming in on the software engineering side or the field side or the sales side that they feel as that they have someone, uh, working with them to help them drive their career. Those are the key things that were, I think from an organizational perspective are happening across the board. Um, for me personally, when I run my organization, I'm really trying to make sure that people feel that they can come to me at any time open door policy, make sure that they're surfacing any times in which they are feeling excluded or anything like that, any challenges, whether it be with a customer, a partner or with a colleague. Um, and then also of course, just making sure that I'm being a good sponsor, uh, to, to people on my team. Um, that is key. You can talk about it, but you have to start with yourself as well. >>That's a great point. You you've got to, to start with yourself and really reflect on that. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and look, am I, am I embodying what it is that I need? And not that I know they need that focused, thoughtful intention on that is so importants, let's talk about some of the techniques that you use that NetApp uses to make the work environment a great place for those women are marginalized, um, communities to really thrive. >>Yeah. And I appreciate it and much like Danielle, uh, and much like AWS, we have some of those more structured programs, right around sponsorship and around mentorship. Um, probably some growth there, opportunities for allies, because I think that's more of a newer concept in really an informal structure around the allies, but something that we're growing into at NetApp, um, on my team personally, I think, um, leading by example's really key. And unfortunately, a lot of the, um, life stuffs still lands on the women, whether we like it or not. Uh, I have a very, uh, active husband in our household, but I still carry when it push comes to shove it's on me. Um, and I wanna make sure that my team knows it's okay to take some time and do the things you need to do with your family. Um, I'm I show up as myself authentically and I encourage them to do the same. >>So it's okay to say, Hey, I need to take a personal day. I need to focus on some stuff that's happening in my personal life this week now, obviously to make sure your job's covered, but just allowing some of that softer vulnerability to come into the team as well, so that others, um, men and women can feel they can do the same thing. And that it's okay to say, I need to balance my life and I need to do some other things alongside. Um, so it's the formal programs, making sure people have awareness on them. Um, I think it's also softly calling people out on biases and saying, Hey, I'm not sure if you know, this landed that way, but I just wanted to make you aware. And usually the feedback is, oh my gosh, I didn't know. And could you coach me on something that I could do better next time? So all of this is driven through our NetApp formal programs, but then it's also how you manifest it on the teams that we're leading. >>Absolutely. And sometimes having that mirror to reflect into can be really eye-opening and, and allow you to, to see things in a completely different light, which is great. Um, you both talked about, um, kind of being what you, uh, can see, and, and I know both companies are upset customer obsessed in a good way. Talk to me a little bit, Danielle, go back over to you about the AWS NetApp partnership. Um, some of that maybe alignment on, on performance on obviously you guys are very well aligned, uh, in terms of that, but also it sounds like you're quite aligned on diversity and inclusion. >>Well, we definitely do. We have the best partnerships with companies in which we have these value alignments. So I think that is a positive thing, of course, but just from a, from a partnership perspective, you know, from my five now plus years of being a part of the APN, this is, you know, one of the most significant years with our launch of FSX for NetApp. Um, with that, uh, key key service, which we're making available natively on AWS. I, I can't think of a better Testament to the, to the, um, partnership than that. And that's doing incredibly well and it really resonates with our customers. And of course it started with customers and their need for NetApp. Uh, so, you know, that is a reflection, I think, of the success that we're having together. >>And Stephanie talk to, uh, about the partnership from your perspective, NetApp, AWS, what you guys are doing together, cultural alignment, but also your alignment on really bringing diversity into drive performance. >>Yeah, I think it's a, a great question. And I have to say it's just been a phenomenal year. Our relationship has, uh, started before our first party service with FSX N but definitely just, um, uh, the trajectory, um, between the two companies since the announcement about nine months ago has just taken off to a, a new level. Um, we feel like an extended part of the family. We worked together seamlessly. A lot of the people in my team often say we feel like Amazonians. Um, and we're really part of this transformation at NetApp from being that storage hardware company into being an ISV and a cloud company. And we could not do this without the partnership with AWS and without the, uh, first party service of Fs XM that we've recently released. Um, I think that those joint values that Danielle referred to are critical to our success, um, starting with customer obsession and always making sure that we are doing the right thing for the customer. >>We coach our team teams all the time on if you are doing the right thing for the customers, you cannot do anything wrong. Just always put the customer at the, in the center of your decisions. And I think that there is, um, a lot of best practice sharing and collaboration as we go through this change. And I think a lot of it is led by the diverse backgrounds that are on the team, um, female, male, um, race and so forth, and just to really, uh, have different perspectives and different experiences about how we approach this change. Um, so we definitely feel like a part of the family. Uh, we are absolutely loving, uh, working with the AWS team and our team knows that we are the right place, the right time with the right people. >>I love that last question for each of you. And I wanna stick with you Stephanie advice to your younger self, think back five years. What advice would you seen what you've accomplished and maybe the thet route that you've taken along the way, what would you advise your youngest Stephanie self. >>Uh, I would say keep being curious, right? Keep being curious, keep asking questions. And sometimes when you get a no, it's not a bad thing, it just means not right now and find out why and, and try to get feedback as to why maybe that wasn't the right opportunity for you. But, you know, just go for what you want. Continue to be curious, continue to ask questions and find a support network of people around you that wanna help you because they are there and they, they wanna see you be successful too. So never be shy about that stuff. >><laugh> absolutely. And I always say failure does not have to be an, a bad F word. A no can be the beginning of something. Amazing. Danielle, same question for you. Thinking back to when you first started in your career, what advice would you give your younger self? >>Yeah, I think the advice I'd give my younger self would be, don't be afraid to put yourself out there. Um, it's certainly, you know, coming from an engineering background, maybe you wanna stay behind the scenes, not, not do a presentation, not do a public speaking event, those types of things, but back to what the community really needs, this thing. Um, you know, I genuinely now, uh, took me a while to realize it, but I realized I needed to put myself out there in order to, um, you know, allow younger women to see what they could be. So that would be the advice I would give. Don't be afraid to put yourself out there. >>Absolutely. That advice that you both gave are, is so fantastic, so important and so applicable to everybody. Um, don't be afraid to put yourself out there, ask questions. Don't be afraid of a, no, that it's all gonna happen at some point or many points along the way. That can also be good. So thank you ladies. You inspired me. I appreciate you sharing what AWS and NetApp are doing together to strengthen diversity, to strengthen performance and the advice that you both shared for your younger selves was brilliant. Thank you. >>Thank you. >>Thank you >>For my guests. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the AWS partner showcase. See you next time. Hey everyone. Welcome to the AWS partner showcase season one, episode three women in tech. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. I've got two female rock stars joining me. Next Vero Reynolds is here engineering manager, telemetry at honeycomb, and one of our cube alumni, Danielle Ock ISV PSA director at AWS. Join us as well. Ladies. It's great to have you talking about a very important topic today. >>Thanks for having us. >>Yeah, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. >>Of course, Vera, let's go ahead and start with you. Tell me about your background and tech. You're coming up on your 10th anniversary. Happy anniversary. >>Thank you. That's right. I can't believe it's been 10 years. Um, but yeah, I started in tech in 2012. Um, I was an engineer for most of that time. Uh, and just recently as a March, switched to engineering management here at honeycomb and, um, you know, throughout my career, I was very much interested in all the things, right. And it was a big FOMO as far as trying a few different, um, companies and products. And I've done things from web development to mobile to platforms. Um, it would be apt to call me a generalist. Um, and in the more recent years I was sort of gravitating more towards developer tool space. And for me that, uh, came in the form of cloud Foundry circle CI and now honeycomb. Um, I actually had my eye on honeycomb for a while before joining, I came across a blog post by charity majors. >>Who's one of our founders and she was actually talking about management and how to pursue that and whether or not it's right, uh, for your career. And so I was like, who is this person? I really like her, uh, found the company. They were pretty small at the time. So I was sort of keeping my eye on them. And then when the time came around for me to look again, I did a little bit more digging, uh, found a lot of talks about the product. And on the one hand they really spoke to me as the solution. They talked about developers owning their coding production and answering questions about what is happening, what are your users seeing? And I felt that pain, I got what they were trying to do. And also on the other hand, every talk I saw at the time was from, uh, an amazing woman <laugh>, which I haven't seen before. Uh, so I came across charity majors again, Christine Y our other founder, and then Liz Jones, who's our principal developer advocate. And that really sealed the deal for me as far as wanting to work here. >>Yeah. Honeycomb is interesting. This is a female founded company. You're two leaders. You mentioned that you like the technology, but you were also attracted because you saw females in the leadership position. Talk to me a little bit about what that's like working for a female led organization at honeycomb. >>Yeah. You know, historically, um, we have tried not to over index on that because there was this, uh, maybe fear awareness of, um, it taking away from our legitimacy as an engineering organization, from our success as a company. Um, but I'm seeing that, uh, rhetoric shift recently because we believe that with great responsibility, uh, with great power comes great responsibility, and we're trying to be more intentional as far as using that attribute of our company. Um, so I would say that for me, it was, um, a choice between a few offers, right. And that was a selling point for sure, because again, I've never experienced it and I've really seen how much they walk that walk. Um, even me being here and me moving into management, I think were both, um, ways in which they really put a lot of trust and support in me. And so, um, I it's been a great ride. >>Excellent. Sounds like it. Before we bring Danielle in to talk about the partnership. I do wanna have you there talk to the audience a little bit about honeycomb, what technology it's delivering and what are its differentiators. >>Yeah, absolutely. Um, so honeycomb is an observability tool, uh, that enables engineers to answer questions about the code that runs in production. And, um, we work with a number of various customers. Some of them are Vanguards, slack. Hello, fresh, just to name a couple, if you're not familiar with observability tooling, it's akin to traditional application performance monitoring, but we believe that observability is succeeding APM because, uh, APM tools were built at the time of monoliths and they just weren't designed to help us answer questions about complex distributed systems that we work with today, where things can go wrong anywhere in that chain. And you can't predict what you're gonna need to ask ahead of time. So some of the ways that we are different is our ability to store and query really rich data, which we believe is the key to understanding those complex systems. >>What I mean by rich data is, um, something that has a lot of attributes. So for example, when an error happens, knowing who it happened to, which user ID, which, um, I don't know, region, they were in, um, what, what, what they were doing at the time and what was happening at the rest of your system. And our ingest engine is really fast. You can do it in as little as three seconds and we call data like this. I said, kind of rich data, contextual data. We refer it as having high ality and high dimensionality, which are big words. But at the end of the day, what that means is we can store and we can query the data. We can do it really fast. And to give you an example of how that looks for our customers, let's say you have a developer team who are using comb to understand and observe their system. >>And they get a report that a user is experiencing a slowdown or something's wrong. They can go into comb and figure out that this only happens to users who are using a particular language pack with their app. And they operated their app last week, that it only happens when they are trying to upload a file. And so it's this level of granularity and being able to zoom in and out, um, under your data that allows you to understand what's happening, especially when you have an incident going on, right. Or your really important high profile customer is telling you that something's wrong. And we can do that. Even if everything else in your other tools looks fine, right? All of your dashboards are okay. You're not actually getting paged on it, but your customers are telling you that something's wrong. Uh, and we believe that's where we shine in helping you there. >>Excellent. It sounds like that's where you really shine that real time visibility is so critical these days. Danielle, Danielle, wanna bring you into the conversation. Talk to us a little bit about the honeycomb partnership from the AWS lens. >>Yeah. So excuse me, observability is obviously a very important, uh, segment in the cloud space, very important to AWS, um, because a lot of all of our customers, uh, as they build their systems distributed, they need to be able to see where, where things are happening in the complex systems that they're building. And so honeycomb is a, is an advanced technology partner. Um, they've been working with us for quite some time and they have a, uh, their solution is listed on the marketplace. Um, definitely something that we see a lot of demand with our customers and they have many integrations, uh, which, you know, we've seen is key to success. Um, being able to work seamlessly with the rest of the services inside of the AWS platform. And I know that they've done some, some great things with people who are trying to develop games on top of AWS, uh, things in that area as well. And so, uh, very important partner in the observa observability market that we have >>Back to you, let's kind of unpack the partnership, the significance that honeycomb ha is getting from being partners with an organization as potent and pivotal as AWS. >>Yeah, absolutely. Um, I know this predates me to some extent, but I know for a long time, AWS and honeycomb has really pushed the envelope together. And, um, I think it's a beneficial relationship for both ends. There's kind of two ways of looking at it. On the one side, there is our own infrastructure. So honeycomb runs on AWS and actually one of our critical workloads that supports that fast query engine that I mentioned uses Lambda. And it does so in a pretty Orthodox way. So we've had a longstanding conversation with the AWS team as far as drawing outside those lines and kind of figuring out how to use this technology in a way that works for us and hopefully will work for other customers of theirs as well. Um, that also allows us to ask for early access for certain features when they become available. >>And then that way we can be sort of the Guinea pigs and try things out, um, in a way that migrates our system and optimizes our own performance, but also allows again, other customers of AWS to follow in that path. And then the other side of that partnership is really supporting our customers who are both honeycomb users and AWS users, because it's, as you imagine, quite a big overlap, and there are certain ways in which we can allow our customers to more easily get their data from AWS to honeycomb. So for example, last year we built a tool, um, based on the new Lambda extension capability that allowed our users who run their applications in Lambdas to get that telemetry data out of their applications and into honeycomb. And it man was win, win. >>Excellent. So I'm hearing a lot of synergies from a technology perspective, you're sticking with you, and then Danielle will bring you in, let's talk about how honeycomb supports D and I across its organization. And how is that synergistic with AWS's approach? Yeah, >>Yeah, absolutely. So I sort of alluded to that hesitancy to over index on the women led aspect of ourselves. Um, but again, a lot of things are shifting, we're growing a lot. And so we are recognizing that we need to be more intentional with our DEI initiatives, and we also notice that we can do better and we should do better. And to that, and we're doing a few things differently, um, that are pretty recent initiatives. We are partnering with organizations that help us target specific communities that are underrepresented in tech. Um, some examples would be after tech hu Latinas in tech among, um, a number of others. And another initiative is DEI head start. That's something that is an internal, um, practice that we started that includes reaching out to underrepresented applicants before any new job for honeycomb becomes live. So before we posted to LinkedIn, before it's even live on our job speech, and the idea there is to kind of balance our pipeline of applicants, which the hope is will lead to more diverse hires in the long term. >>That's a great focus there. Danielle, I know we've talked about this before, but for the audience, in terms of the context of the honeycomb partnership, the focus at AWS for D E and I is really significant, unpack that a little bit for us. >>Well, let me just bring it back to just how we think about it, um, with the companies that we work with, but also in, in terms of, you know, what we want to be able to do, excuse me, it's very important for us to, you know, build products that reflect, uh, the customers that we have. And I think, you know, working with, uh, a company like honeycomb that is looking to differentiate in a space, um, by, by bringing in, you know, the experiences of many different types of people I genuinely believe. And I'm sure Vera also believes that by having those diverse perspectives, that we're able to then build better products for our customers. Um, and you know, it's one of, one of our leadership principles, uh, is, is rooted in this. I write a lot, it asks for us to seek out diverse perspectives. Uh, and you can't really do that if everybody kind of looks the same and thinks the same and has the same background. So I think that is where our de and I, um, you know, I thought process is rooted and, you know, companies like honeycomb that give customers choice and differentiate and help them, um, to do what they need to do in their unique, um, environments is super important. So >>The, the importance of thought diversity cannot be underscored enough. It's something that is, can be pivotal to organizations. And it's very nice to hear that that's so fundamental to both companies, Barry, I wanna go back to you for a second. You, I think you mentioned this, the DEI head start program, that's an internal program at honeycomb. Can you shed a little bit of light on that? >>Yeah, that's right. And I actually am in the process of hiring a first engineer for my team. So I'm learning a lot of these things firsthand, um, and how it works is we try to make sure to pre-load our pipeline of applicants for any new job opening we have with diverse candidates to the best of our abilities, and that can involve partnering with the organizations that I mentioned or reaching out to our internal network, um, and make sure that we give those applicants a head start, so to speak. >>Excellent. I like that. Danielle, before we close, I wanna get a little bit of, of your background. We've got various background in tag, she's celebrating her 10th anniversary. Give me a, a short kind of description of the journey that you've navigated through being a female in technology. >>Yeah, thanks so much. I really appreciate, uh, being able to share this. So I started as a software engineer, uh, back actually in the late nineties, uh, during the, the first.com bubble and, uh, have, have spent quite a long time actually as an individual contributor, um, probably working in software engineering teams up through 2014 at a minimum until I joined AWS, uh, as a customer facing solutions architect. Um, I do think spending a lot of time, hands on definitely helped me with some of the imposter syndrome, um, issues that folks suffer from not to say I don't at all, but it, it certainly helped with that. And I've been leading teams at AWS since 2015. Um, so it's really been a great ride. Um, and like I said, I'm very happy to see all of our engineering teams change, uh, as far as their composition. And I'm, I'm grateful to be part of it. >>It's pretty great to be able to witness that composition change for the better last question for each of you. And we're almost out of time and Danielle, I'm gonna stick with you. What's your advice, your recommendations for women who either are thinking about getting into tech or those who may be in tech, maybe they're in individual positions and they're not sure if they should apply for that senior leadership position. What do you advise them to do? >>I mean, definitely for the individual contributors, tech tech is a great career, uh, direction, um, and you will always be able to find women like you, you have to maybe just work a little bit harder, uh, to join, have community, uh, in that. But then as a leader, um, representation is very important and we can bring more women into tech by having more leaders. So that's my, you just have to take the lead, >>Take the lead, love that there. Same question for you. What's your advice and recommendations for those maybe future female leaders in tech? >>Yeah, absolutely. Um, Danielle mentioned imposter syndrome and I think we all struggle with it from time to time, no matter how many years it's been. And I think for me, for me, the advice would be if you're starting out, don't be afraid to ask, uh, questions and don't be afraid to kind of show a little bit of ignorance because we've all been there. And I think it's on all of us to remember what it's like to not know how things work. And on the flip side of that, if you are a more senior IC or, uh, in a leadership role, also being able to model just saying, I don't know how this works and going and figuring out answers together because that was a really powerful shift for me early in my career is just to feel like I can say that I don't know something. >>I totally agree. I've been in that same situation where just ask the question because you I'm guaranteed, there's a million outta people in the room that probably has the, have the same question and because of imposter syndrome, don't wanna admit, I don't understand that. Can we back up, but I agree with you. I think that is, um, one of the best things. Raise your hand, ask a question, ladies. Thank you so much for joining me talking about honeycomb and AWS, what you're doing together from a technology perspective and the focus efforts that each company has on D E and I, we appreciate your insights. Thank you so much for having us great talking to you. My pleasure, likewise for my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the AWS partner showcase women in check. Welcome to the AWS partner showcase I'm Lisa Martin, your host. This is season one, episode three, and this is a great episode that focuses on women in tech. I'm pleased to be joined by Danielle Shaw, the ISV PSA director at AWS, and the sponsor of this fantastic program. Danielle, it's great to see you and talk about such an important topic. >>Yes. And I will tell you, all of these interviews have just been a blast for me to do. And I feel like there has been a lot of gold that we can glean from all of the, um, stories that we heard on these interviews and good advice that I myself would not have necessarily thought of. So >>I agree. And we're gonna get to set, cuz advice is one of the, the main things that our audience is gonna hear. We have Hillary Ashton, you'll see from TETA there, Reynolds joins us from honeycomb, Stephanie Curry from NetApp and Sue Paris from Jefferson Frank. And the topics that we dig into are first and foremost, diversity equity and inclusion. That is a topic that is incredibly important to every organization. And some of the things Danielle that our audiences shared were really interesting to me. One of the things that I saw from a thematic perspective over and over was that like D Reynolds was talking about the importance of companies and hiring managers and how they need to be intentional with de and I initiatives. And that intention was a, a, a common thing that we heard. I'm curious what your thoughts are about that, that we heard about being intentional working intentionally to deliver a more holistic pool of candidates where de I is concerned. What are your, what were some of the things that stuck out to you? >>Absolutely. I think each one of us is working inside of organizations where in the last, you know, five to 10 years, there's been a, you know, a strong push in this direction, mostly because we've really seen, um, first and foremost, by being intentional, that you can change the, uh, the way your organization looks. Um, but also just that, you know, without being intentional, um, there was just a lot of, you know, outcomes and situations that maybe weren't great for, um, you know, a healthy, um, and productive environment, uh, working environment. And so, you know, a lot of these companies have made a big investments and put forth big initiatives that I think all of us are involved in. And so we're really excited to get out here and talk about it and talk about, especially as these are all partnerships that we have, how, you know, these align with our values. So >>Yeah, that, that value alignment mm-hmm <affirmative> that you bring up is another thing that we heard consistently with each of the partners, there's a cultural alignment, there's a customer obsession alignment that they have with AWS. There's a D E and I alignment that they have. And I, I think everybody also kind of agreed Stephanie Curry talked about, you know, it's really important, um, for diversity on it, on, on impacting performance, highly performant teams are teams that are more diverse. I think we heard that kind of echoed throughout the women that we talked to in >>This. Absolutely. And I absolutely, and I definitely even feel that, uh, with their studies out there that tell you that you make better products, if you have all of the right input and you're getting all many different perspectives, but not just that, but I can, I can personally see it in the performing teams, not just my team, but also, you know, the teams that I work alongside. Um, arguably some of the other business folks have done a really great job of bringing more women into their organization, bringing more underrepresented minorities. Tech is a little bit behind, but we're trying really hard to bring that forward as well to in technical roles. Um, but you can just see the difference in the outcomes. Uh, at least I personally can just in the adjacent teams of mine. >>That's awesome. We talked also quite a bit during this episode about attracting women and underrepresented, um, groups and retaining them. That retention piece is really key. What were some of the things that stuck out to you that, um, you know, some of the guests talked about in terms of retention? >>Yeah. I think especially, uh, speaking with Hillary and hearing how, uh, Teradata is thinking about different ways to make hybrid work work for everybody. I think that is definitely when I talk to women interested in joining AWS, oftentimes that might be one of the first, uh, concerns that they have. Like, am I going to be able to, you know, go pick my kid up at four o'clock at the bus, or am I going to be able to, you know, be at my kids' conf you know, conference or even just, you know, have enough work life balance that I can, um, you know, do the things that I wanna do outside of work, uh, beyond children and family. So these are all very important, um, and questions that especially women come and ask, but also, um, you know, it kind of is a, is a bellwether for, is this gonna be a company that allows me to bring my whole self to work? And then I'm also gonna be able to have that balance that I need need. So I think that was something that is, uh, changing a lot. And many people are thinking about work a lot differently. >>Absolutely. The pandemic not only changed how we think about work, you know, initially it was, do I work from home or do I live at work? And that was legitimately a challenge that all of us faced for a long time period, but we're seeing the hybrid model. We're seeing more companies be open to embracing that and allowing people to have more of that balance, which at the end of the day, it's so much better for product development for the customers, as you talked about there's, it's a win-win. >>Absolutely. And, you know, definitely the first few months of it was very hard to find that separation to be able to put up boundaries. Um, but I think at least I personally have been able to find the way to do it. And I hope that, you know, everyone is getting that space to be able to put those boundaries up to effectively have a harmonious, you know, work life where you can still be at home most of the time, but also, um, you know, have that cutoff point of the day or at least have that separate space that you can feel that you're able to separate the two. >>Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of that from a work life balance perspective leads into one of the next topics that we covered in detail with, and that's mentors and sponsors the differences between them recommendations from, uh, the women on the panel about how to combat imposter syndrome, but also how to leverage mentors and sponsors throughout your career. One of the things that, that Hillary said that I thought was fantastic, advice were mentors and sponsors are concerned is, is be selective in picking your bosses. We often see people, especially younger folks, not necessarily younger folks. I shouldn't say that that are attracted to a company it's brand maybe, and think more about that than they do the boss or bosses that can help guide them along the way. But I thought that was really poignant advice that Hillary provided something that I'm gonna take into consideration myself. >>Yeah. And I honestly hadn't thought about that, but as I reflect through my own career, I can see how I've had particular managers who have had a major impact on helping me, um, with my career. But, you know, if you don't have the ability to do that, or maybe that's not a luxury that you have, I think even if you're able to, you know, find a mentor for a period of time or, um, you know, just, just enable for you to be able to get from say a point a to point B just for a temporary period. Um, just so you can grow into your next role, have a, have a particular outcome that you wanna drive, have a particular goal in mind find that person who's been there and done that and can really help you get through. If you don't have the luxury of picking your manager mentor, who can help you get to the next step. >>Exactly. That, that I thought that advice was brilliant and something that I hadn't really considered either. We also talked with several of the women about imposter syndrome. You know, that's something that everybody, I think, regardless of gender of your background, everybody feels that at some point. So I think one of the nice things that we do in this episode is sort of identify, yes, imposter syndrome is real. This is, this is how it happened to me. This is I navigated around or got over it. I think there's some great advice there for the audience to glean as well about how to dial down the imposter syndrome that they might be feeling. >>Absolutely. And I think the key there is just acknowledging it. Um, but also just hearing all the different techniques on, on how folks have dealt with it because everybody does, um, you know, even some of the smartest, most confident men I've, I've met in, uh, industry still talk to me about how they have it and I'm shocked by it oftentimes, but, um, it is very common and hopefully we, we talk about some good techniques to, to deal with that. >>I think we do, you know, one of the things that when we were asking the, our audience, our guests about advice, what would they tell their younger selves? What would they tell young women or underrepresented groups in terms of becoming interested in stem and in tech and everybody sort of agreed on me, don't be afraid to raise your hand and ask questions. Um, show vulnerabilities, not just as the employee, but even from a leadership perspective, show that as a leader, I, I don't have all the answers. There are questions that I have. I think that goes a long way to reducing the imposter syndrome that most of us have faced at some point in our lives. And that's just, don't be afraid to ask questions. You never know, oh, how can people have the same question sitting in the room? >>Well, and also, you know, for folks who've been in industry for 20, 25 years, I think we can just say that, you know, it's a, it's a marathon, it's not a sprint and you're always going to, um, have new things to learn and you can spend, you know, back to, we talked about the zing and zagging through careers, um, where, you know, we'll have different experiences. Um, all of that kind of comes through just, you know, being curious and wanting to continue to learn. So yes, asking questions and being vulnerable and being able to say, I don't know all the answers, but I wanna learn is a key thing, uh, especially culturally at AWS, but I'm sure with all of these companies as well, >>Definitely I think it sounded like it was really ingrained in their culture. And another thing too, that we also talked about is the word, no, doesn't always mean a dead end. It can often mean not right now or may, maybe this isn't the right opportunity at this time. I think that's another important thing that the audience is gonna learn is that, you know, failure is not necessarily a bad F word. If you turn it into opportunity, no isn't necessarily the end of the road. It can be an opener to a different door. And I, I thought that was a really positive message that our guests, um, had to share with the, the audience. >>Yeah, totally. I can, I can say I had a, a mentor of mine, um, a very, uh, strong woman who told me, you know, your career is going to have lots of ebbs and flows and that's natural. And you know that when you say that, not right now, um, that's a perfect example of maybe there's an ebb where it might not be the right time for you now, but something to consider in the future. But also don't be afraid to say yes, when you can. <laugh> >>Exactly. Danielle, it's been a pleasure filming this episode with you and the great female leaders that we have on. I'm excited for the audience to be able to learn from Hillary Vera, Stephanie Sue, and you so much valuable content in here. We hope you enjoy this partner showcase season one, episode three, Danielle, thanks so much for helping >>Us with it's been a blast. I really appreciate it >>All audience. We wanna enjoy this. Enjoy the episode.

(bright music) >> Welcome to the AWS Partner Showcase. I'm Lisa Martin, your host. This is season one episode three and this is a great episode that focuses on women in tech. I'm pleased to be joined by Danielle Greshock, the ISV PSA director at AWS, and a sponsor of this fantastic program. Danielle, it's great to see you and talk about such an important topic. >> Yes, and I will tell you all of these interviews have just been a blast for me to do and I feel like there has been a lot of gold that we can glean from all of the stories that we heard on these interviews and good advice that I myself would not have necessarily thought of. >> I agree, and we're going to get to (indistinct) 'cause advice is one of the the main things that our audience is going to hear. We have Hillary Ashton, you'll see from Teradata. Vera Reynolds joins us from Honeycomb. Stephanie Curry from NetApp. And Sue Persichetti from Jefferson Frank and the topics that we dig into are, first and foremost, diversity equity and inclusion, that is a topic that is incredibly important to every organization. And some of the things, Danielle, that our audiences shared were really interesting to me. One of the things that I saw, from a thematic perspective, over and over, was that, like Vera Reynolds was talking about, the importance of companies and hiring managers and how they need to be intentional with DE&I initiatives and that intention was a common theme that we heard. I'm curious what your thoughts are about that, that we heard about being intentional, working intentionally to deliver a more holistic pool of candidates where DE&I is concerned. What were some of the things that stuck out to you? >> Absolutely, I think each one of us is working inside of organizations where, in the last five to 10 years, there's been a strong push in this direction, mostly because we've really seen, first and foremost by being intentional, that you can change the way your organization looks. But also just that without being intentional there was just a lot of outcomes and situations that maybe weren't great for a healthy and productive environment, working environment. And so a lot of these companies have made big investments and put forth big initiatives that I think all of us are involved in and so we're really excited to get out here and talk about it and talk about, especially as these are all partnerships that we have, how these align with our values. >> Yeah, that value alignment that you bring up is another theme that we heard consistently with each of the partners. There's a cultural alignment. There's a customer obsession alignment that they have with AWS. There's a DE&I alignment that they have and I think everybody also kind of agreed, Stephanie Curry talked about, it's really important for diversity on impacting performance, highly performant teams are teams that are more diverse. I think we heard that kind of echoed throughout the women that we talked to in this episode. >> Absolutely, and I definitely even feel that there are studies out there that tell you that you make better products if you have all of the right input and you're getting many different perspectives. But not just that, I can personally see it in the performing teams, not just my team, but also the teams that I work alongside. Arguably some of the other business folks have done a really great job of bringing more women into their organization, bringing more underrepresented minorities, tech is a little bit behind but we're trying really hard to bring that forward as well in technical roles. But you can just see the difference in the outcomes. At least I personally can, just in the adjacent teams of mine. >> That's awesome, we talked also quite a bit during this episode about attracting women and underrepresented groups and retaining them. That retention piece is really key. What were some of the things that stuck out to you that some of the guests talked about in terms of retention? >> Yeah, I think, especially speaking with Hillary and hearing how Teradata is thinking about different ways to make hybrid work work for everybody, I think that is definitely, when I talk to women interested in joining AWS, oftentimes that might be one of the first concerns that they have. Like, am I going to be able to go pick my kid up at four o'clock at the bus? Or, am I going to be able to be at my kid's conference? Or even just have enough work life balance that I can do the things that I want to do outside of work, beyond children and family. So these are all very important questions that especially women come and ask, but also it kind of is a bellwether for, is this going to be a company that allows me to bring my whole self to work and then I'm also going to be able to have that balance that I need. So I think that was something that is changing a lot and many people are thinking about work a lot differently. >> Absolutely, the pandemic not only changed how we think about work. You know, initially it was, do I work from home or do I live at work, and that was legitimately a challenge that all of us faced for a long time period, but we're seeing the hybrid model, we're seeing more companies be open to embracing that and allowing people to have more of that balance, which, at the end of the day, it's so much better for product development for the customers, as you talked about, it's a win-win. >> Absolutely, and definitely the first few months of it was very hard to find that separation, to be able to put up boundaries, but I think, at least I personally, have been able to find the way to do it and I hope that everyone is getting that space to be able to put those boundaries up, to effectively have a harmonious work life where you can still be at home most of the time, but also have that cutoff point of the day or at least have that separate space that you can feel that you're able to separate the two. >> Yeah absolutely, and a lot of that, from a work life balance perspective, bleeds into one of the next topics that we covered in detail and that's mentors and sponsors, the differences between them, recommendations from the women on the panel about how to combat imposter syndrome, but also how to leverage mentors and sponsors throughout your career. One of the things that Hillary said that I thought was fantastic advice, where mentors and sponsors are concerned, is be selective in picking your bosses. We often see people, especially younger folks, not necessarily younger folks, I shouldn't say that, that are attracted to a company, it's brand maybe, and think more about that than they do the boss or bosses that can help guide them along the way, but I thought that was really poignant advice that Hillary provided, something that I'm going to take into consideration myself. >> Yeah, and I honestly hadn't thought about that but as I reflect through my own career I can see how I've had particular managers who have had a major impact on helping me with my career. But if you don't have the ability to do that or maybe that's not a luxury that you have, I think even if you're able to find a mentor for a period of time or just enable for you to be able to get from, say a point A to point B, just for a temporary period, just so you can grow into your next role. Have a particular outcome that you want to drive. Have a particular goal in mind. Find that person who's been there and done that and they can really help you get through. If you don't have the luxury of picking your manager, at least be able to pick a mentor who can help you get to the next step. >> Exactly, I thought that advice was brilliant and it's something that I hadn't really considered either. We also talked with several of the women about imposter syndrome. You know that's something that everybody, I think regardless of gender, of your background, everybody feels that at some point. So I think one of the nice things that we do in this episode is sort of identify, yes, imposter syndrome is real, this is how it happened to me, this is how I navigated around or got over it. I think there's some great advice there for the audience to glean as well, about how to dial down the imposter syndrome that they might be feeling. >> Absolutely and I think the key there is just acknowledging it but also just hearing all the different techniques on how folks have dealt with it because everybody does. Even some of the smartest, most confident men I've met in industry still talk to me about how they have it and I'm shocked by it oftentimes, but it is very common and hopefully we talk about some good techniques to deal with that. >> I think we do. You know, one of the things that, when we were asking our guests about advice, what would they tell their younger selves, what would they tell young women or underrepresented groups in terms of becoming interested in STEM and in tech, and everybody sort of agreed on the, don't be afraid to raise your hand and ask questions. Show vulnerabilities, not just as the employee, but even from a leadership perspective, show that as a leader. I don't have all the answers. There are questions that I have. I think that goes a long way to reducing the imposter syndrome that most of us have faced at some point in our lives and that's just, don't be afraid to ask questions. You never know how many people have the same question sitting in the room. >> Well and also, for folks who've been in industry for 20, 25 years, I think we can just say that it's a marathon, it's not a sprint, and you're always going to have new things to learn and you can spend, back to we talked about the zigging and zagging through careers where we'll have different experiences, all of that kind of comes through just being curious and wanting to continue to learn. So yes, asking questions and being vulnerable and being able to say, "I don't know all the answers but I want to learn," is a key thing, especially culturally at AWS, but I'm sure with all of these companies as well. >> Definitely I think it sounded like it was really ingrained in their culture. And another thing too that we also talked about is the word no doesn't always mean a dead end. It can often mean, not right now, or maybe this isn't the right opportunity at this time. I think that's another important thing that the audience is going to learn is that failure is not necessarily a bad F word if you turn it into opportunity. No isn't necessarily the end of the road. It can be an opener to a different door and I thought that was a really positive message that our guests had to share with the audience. >> Yeah totally, I can say I had a mentor of mine, a very strong woman who told me, your career is going to have lots of ebbs and flows and that's natural and that when you say that, not right now, that's a perfect example of maybe there's an ebb where it might not be the right time for you now, but something to consider in the future. But also don't be afraid to say yes, when you can. >> Exactly, Danielle, it's been a pleasure filming this episode with you and the great female leaders that we have on. I'm excited for the audience to be able to learn from Hillary, Vera, Stephanie, Sue, and you. So much valuable content in here. We hope you enjoy this Partner Showcase. Season one episode three. Danielle, thank you so much for helping us. >> Thank you. Thank you, it's been a blast. I really appreciate it. >> All right, audience, we want to thank you. Enjoy the episode. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Everyone, it's nice to see you. Welcome to the "AWS Partner Showcase". I'm Lisa Martin, your host. This is season one, episode three, and this is a great episode that focuses on women in tech. I'm pleased to be joined by Danielle Greshock, the ISV PSA Director at AWS, and the sponsor of this fantastic program. Danielle, it's great to see you, and talk about such an important topic. >> Yes, and I will tell you all of these interviews have just been a blast for me to do, and I feel like there has been a lot of gold that we can glean from all of the stories that we heard on these interviews and good advice that I myself would not have necessarily thought of. So-- >> I agree, and we're going to get to that. 'Cause advice is one of the main things that our audience is going to hear. We have Hillary Ashton, you'll see from Teradata, Vera Reynolds joins us from Honeycomb, Stephanie Curry from NetApp and Sue Persichetti from Jefferson Frank. And the topics that we dig into are first and foremost, diversity, equity and inclusion. That is a topic that is incredibly important to every organization. And some of the things, Danielle, that our audiences shared were really interesting to me. One of the things that I saw from a thematic perspective over and over was that like Vera Reynolds was talking about the importance of companies and hiring managers and how they need to be intentional with DE&I initiatives. And that intention was a common thing that we heard. I'm curious what your thoughts are about that, that we heard about being intentional, working intentionally to deliver a more holistic pool of candidates where DE&I is concerned. What were some of the things that stuck out to you? >> Absolutely, I think each one of us is working in the inside of organizations where in the last five to 10 years there's been a strong push in this direction. Mostly because we've really seen first and foremost by being intentional, that you can change the way your organization looks. But also just that without being intentional, there was just a lot of outcomes and situations that maybe weren't great for a healthy and productive working environment. And so a lot of these companies have made big investments and put forth big initiatives that I think all of us are involved in. And so we're really excited to get out here and talk about it and talk about, especially as these are all partnerships that we have, how these align with our values. >> Yeah, that value alignment that you bring up is another thing that we heard consistently with each of the partners. There's a cultural alignment, there's a customer obsession alignment that they have with AWS, there's a DE&I alignment that they have. And I think everybody also kind of agreed. Stephanie Curry talked about it's really important for diversity on impacting performance. Highly performing teams are teams that are more diverse. I think we heard that kind of echoed throughout the women that we talked to in this episode. >> Absolutely, and I definitely even feel that there are studies out there that tell you that you make better products if you have all of the right input and you're getting many different perspectives. But not just that, but I can personally see it in the performing teams, not just my team, but also the teams that I work alongside. Arguably some of the other business folks have done a really great job of bringing more women into their organization, bringing more underrepresented minorities. Tech is a little bit behind, but we're trying really hard to bring that forward as well in technical roles. But you can just see the difference in the outcomes. At least I personally can just in the adjacent teams of mine. >> That's awesome. We talked also quite a bit during this episode about attracting women and underrepresented groups and retaining them. That retention piece is really key. What were some of the things that stuck out to you that some of the guests talked about in terms of retention? >> Yeah, I think especially speaking with Hillary and hearing how Teradata is thinking about different ways to make hybrid work work for everybody. I think that is definitely... When I talk to women interested in joining AWS, oftentimes that might be one of the first concerns that they have. Like, am I going to be able to go pick my kid up at four o'clock at the bus? Or am I going to be able to be at my kids' conference, or even just have enough work-life balance that I can do the things that I want to do outside of work beyond children and family. So these are all very important questions that especially women come and ask, but also it kind of is a bellwether for, is this going to be a company that allows me to bring my whole self to work? And then I'm also going to be able to have that balance that I need. So I think that was something that is changing a lot and many people are thinking about work a lot differently. >> Absolutely, the pandemic not only changed how we think about work. Initially it was, do I work from home or do I live at work? And that was legitimately a challenge that all of us faced for a long time period. But we're seeing the hybrid model, we're seeing more companies be open to embracing that and allowing people to have more of that balance which at the end of the day it's so much better for product development for the customers as you talked about, it's a win-win. >> Absolutely. And definitely the first few months of it was very hard to find that separation to be able to put up boundaries. But I think at least I personally have been able to find the way to do it and I hope that everyone is getting that space to be able to put those boundaries up to effectively have a harmonious work life. Where you can still be at home most of the time, but also have that cutoff point of the day or at least have that separate space that you can feel that you're able to separate the two. >> Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of that from a work-life balance perspective leads into one of the next topics that we covered in detail. And that's mentors and sponsors, the differences between them, recommendations from the women on the panel about how to combat imposter syndrome, but also how to leverage mentors and sponsors throughout your career. One of the things that Hillary said that I thought was fantastic advice where mentors and sponsors are concerned is be selective in picking your bosses. We often see people, especially younger folks, not necessarily younger folks, I shouldn't say that, that are attracted to a company, its brand maybe, and think more about that than they do the boss or bosses that can help guide them along the way. But I thought that was really poignant advice that Hillary provided, something that I'm going to take into consideration myself. >> Yeah, and I honestly hadn't thought about that, but as I reflect through my own career, I can see how I've had particular managers who have had a major impact on helping me with my career. But if you don't have the ability to do that or maybe that's not a luxury that you have, I think even if you're able to find a mentor for a period of time or just enable for you to be able to get from say a point A to point B just for a temporary period, just so you can grow into your next role, have a particular outcome that you want to drive, have a particular goal in mind. Find that person who's been there and done that and they can really help you get through if you don't have the luxury of picking your manager, at least be able to pick a mentor who can help you get to the next step. >> Exactly, I thought that advice was brilliant and something that I hadn't really considered either. We also talked with several other women about imposter syndrome. That's something that everybody, I think regardless of gender, of your background, everybody feels that at some point. So I think one of the nice things that we do in this episode is sort of identify, yes, imposter syndrome is real. This is how it happened to me, this is how I navigated around it or got over it. I think there's some great advice there for the audience to glean as well about how to dial down the imposter syndrome that they might be feeling. >> Absolutely. And I think the key there is just acknowledging it, but also just hearing all the different techniques on how folks have dealt with it, because everybody does. Even some of the smartest, most confident men I've met in industry still talk to me about how they have it. And I'm shocked by it oftentimes, but it is very common. And hopefully we talk about some good techniques to deal with that. >> I think we do. One of the things that when we were asking our guests about advice, what would they tell their younger selves, what would they tell young women or underrepresented groups in terms of becoming interested in STEM and in tech. And everybody sort of agreed on the don't be afraid to raise your hand and ask questions. Show vulnerabilities, not just as the employee, but even from a leadership perspective, show that as a leader, I don't have all the answers. There are questions that I have. I think that goes a long way to reducing the imposter syndrome that most of us have faced at some point in our lives. And that's just, don't be afraid to ask questions. You never know how many people have the same question sitting in the room. >> Well, and also for folks who've been in industry for 20, 25 years, I think we can just say that it's a marathon, it's not a sprint, and you're always going to have new things to learn. And you can spend... Back to we talked about the zigging and zagging through careers where we'll have different experiences. All of that kind of comes through just being curious and wanting to continue to learn. So yes, asking questions and being vulnerable and being able to say, I don't know all the answers but I want to learn is a key thing, especially culturally at AWS, but I'm sure with all of these companies as well. >> Definitely I think it sounded like it was really ingrained in their culture. And another thing too that we also talked about is the word, no, doesn't always mean a dead end, it can often mean, not right now or maybe this isn't the right opportunity at this time. I think that's another important thing that the audience is going to learn is that failure is not necessarily a bad F-word if you turn it into opportunity. No isn't necessarily the end of the road. It can be an opener to a different door. And I thought that was a really positive message that our guests had to share with the audience. >> Yeah, totally. I can say I had a mentor of mine, a very strong woman who told me, "Your career is going to have lots of ebbs and flows, and that's natural." And that when you say that, not right now, that's a perfect example of maybe there's an ebb where it might not be the right time for you now, but something to consider in the future. But also don't be afraid to say yes when you can. >> Exactly. Danielle, it's been a pleasure filming this episode with you and the great female leaders that we have on. I'm excited for the audience to be able to learn from Hillary, Vera, Stephanie, Sue and you. So much valuable content in here. We hope you enjoy this partner showcase season one episode three. Danielle, thanks so much for helping us with this. >> Thank you. Thank you, it's been a blast, I really appreciate it. >> All right. Audience, we want to thank you, enjoy the episode. (gentle music)

>>Hey everyone. Welcome to the AWS partner showcase season one, episode three women in tech. I'm your host. Lisa Martin. I've got two female rock stars joining me. Next Vera Reynolds is here engineering manager, telemetry at honeycomb, and one of our Cub alumni, Danielle GShock ISV PSA director at AWS joins us as well. Ladies. It's great to have you talking about a very important topic today. >>Thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. >>Of course, Vera, let's go ahead and start with you. Tell me about your background and tech. You're coming up on your 10th anniversary. Happy anniversary. >>Thank you. That's right. I can't believe it's been 10 years, but yeah, I started in tech in 2012. I was an engineer for most of that time. And just recently, as of March switched to engineering management here at honeycomb and, you know, throughout my career, I was very much interested in all the things, right. And it was a big FOMO as far as trying a few different companies and products, and I've done things from web development to mobile, to platforms. It would be apt to call me a generalist. And in the more recent years, I was sort of gravitating more towards developer tool space. And for me, that came in the form of cloud Foundry circle CI, and now honeycomb. I actually had my eye on honeycomb for a while before joining, I came across a blog post by charity majors. Who's one of our founders and she was actually talking about management and how to pursue that and whether or not it's right for your career. >>And so I was like, who is this person? I really like her found the company. They were pretty small at the time. So I was sort of keeping my eye on them. And then when the time came around for me to look again, I did a little bit more digging, found a lot of talks about the product. And on the one hand, they really spoke to me as the solution. They talked about developers owning their coding in production and answering questions about what is happening, what are your users seeing? And I felt that pain, I got what they were trying to do. And also on the other hand, every talk I saw at the time was from an amazing woman, which I haven't seen before. So I came across charity majors again, Christine Young, who's our other founder. And then Liz Frank Jones, who's our, our principal developer advocate. And that really sealed the deal for me as far as wanting to work here. >>Yeah. Honeycomb is interesting. This is a female founded company. You two leaders, you mentioned that you liked the technology, but you were also attracted because you saw females and the leadership position. Talk to me a little bit about what that's like working for a female led organization at honeycomb. >>Yeah. You know, historically we have tried not to over index on that because there was this maybe fear or rareness of it taking away from our legitimacy as an engineering organization, from our success as a company. But I'm seeing that rhetoric shift recently because we believe that with great responsibility with great power comes great responsibility. And we're trying to be more intentional as far as using that attribute of our company. So I would say that for me, it was a choice between a few offers, right. And that was a selling point, for sure, because again, I've never experienced it and I've really seen how much they walk that walk. Even me being here and me moving into management, I think were both ways in which they really put a lot of trust and support in me. And so I it's been a great ride. >>Excellent. Sounds like it. Before we bring Danielle in to talk about the partnership. I do wanna have you here, talk to the audience a little bit about honeycomb, what technology it's delivering and what are its differentiators. >>Yeah, absolutely. So honeycomb is an observability tool that enables engineers to answer questions about the code that runs in production. And we work with a number of various customers. Some of them are Vanguards, slack. Hello, fresh. Just to name a couple. If you're not familiar with observability tooling, it's akin to traditional application performance monitoring, but we believe that observability is succeeding APM because APM tools were built at the time of monoliths and they just weren't designed to help us answer questions about complex distributed systems that we work with today, where things can go wrong anywhere in that chain. And you can't predict what you're gonna need to ask ahead of time. So some of the ways that we are different is our ability to store and query really rich data, which we believe is the key to understanding those complex systems. What I mean by rich data is something that has a lot of attributes. >>So for example, when an error happens, knowing who it happened to, which user ID, which I don't know region, they were in, what, what they were doing at the time and what was happening at the rest of your system. And our ingest engine is really fast. You could do it in as little as three seconds and we call data like this. I said, kind of rich data, contextual data. We refer it as having high ity and high dimensionality, which are big words. But at the end of the day, what that means is we can store and we can query this data and we can do it really fast. And to give you an example of how that looks for our customers, let's say you have a developer team who are using honeycomb to understand and observe their system. And they get a report that a user is experiencing a slowdown or something's wrong. >>They can go into honeycomb and figure out that this only happens to users who are using a particular language pack with their app. And they operated their app last week, that it only happens when they are trying to upload a file. And so it's this level of granularity and being able to zoom in and out under data that allows you to understand what's happening, especially when you have an incident going on, right. Or your really important high profile customer is telling you that something's wrong. And we can do that. Even if everything else in your other tools looks fine, right? All of your dashboards are okay. You're not actually getting paged on it, but your customers are telling you that something's wrong. And we believe that's where we shine in helping you there. >>Excellent. It sounds like that's where you really shine that realtime visibility is so critical these days. Danielle, Danielle, wanna bring you into the conversation. Talk to us a little bit about the honeycomb partnership from the AWS lens. >>Yeah. So excuse me, observability is obviously a very important segment in the cloud space, very important to AWS, because a lot of all of our customers, as they build their systems distributed, they need to be able to see where, where things are happening in the complex systems that they're building. And so honeycomb is a, is an advanced technology partner. They've been working with us for quite some time and they have a, their solution is listed on the marketplace. Definitely something that we see a lot of demand with our customers, and they have many integrations, which, you know, we've seen is key to success. Being able to work seamlessly with the rest of the services inside of the AWS platform. And I know that they've done some, some great things with people who are trying to develop games on top of AWS things in that area as well. And so very important partner in the observa observability market that we have >>You back to you, let's kind of unpack the partnership, the significance that honeycomb ha is getting from being partners with an organization as potent and pivotal as AWS. >>Yeah, absolutely. I know that this predates me to some extent, but I know for a long time, AWS and honeycomb has really pushed the envelope together. And I think it's a beneficial relationship for both ends. There is kind of two ways of looking at it. On the one side, there is our own infrastructure. So honeycomb runs on AWS and actually one of our critical workloads that supports that fast query engine that I mentioned uses Lambda. And it does so in a pretty Orthodox way. So we've had a long standing conversation with the AWS team as far as drawing outside those lines and kind of figuring out how to use the technology in a way that works for us and hopefully will work for other customers of theirs as well. That also allows us to ask for early access for certain features when they become available. >>And then that way we can be sort of the Guinea pigs and try things out in a way that migrates our system and optimizes our own performance, but also allows again, other customers of AWS to follow in that path. And then the other side of that partnership is really supporting our customers who are both honeycomb users and AWS users, because it's, as you imagine, quite a big overlap, and there are certain ways in which we can allow our customers to more easily get their data from AWS to honeycomb. So for example, last year we built a tool based on the new Lambda extension capability that allowed our users who run their applications in Lambdas to get that tele, telemetry data out of their applications and into honeycomb and it land was win-win >>Excellent. So I'm hearing a lot of synergies from a technology perspective, you're sticking with you, and then Danielle will bring you in. Let's talk about how honeycomb supports D and I across its organization. And how is that synergistic with AWS's approach? Yeah, >>Yeah, absolutely. So I, I sort of alluded to that hesitancy to over index on the women led aspect of ourselves. But again, a lot of things are shifting, we're growing a lot. And so we are recognizing that we need to be more intentional with our DEI initiatives, and we also notice that we can do better and we should do better. And to that, and we're doing a few things differently that are pretty recent initiatives. We are partnering with organizations that help us target specific communities that are underrepresented in tech. Some examples would be after tech hu Latinas in tech among a number of others. And another initiative is DEI head start. That's something that is an internal practice that we started that includes reaching out to underrepresented applicants before any new job for honeycomb becomes live. So before we posted to LinkedIn, before it's even live on our job speech, and the idea there is to kind of balance our pipeline of applicants, which the hope is we'll lead to more diverse hires in the long term. >>That's a great focus there. Danielle, I know we've talked about this before, but for the audience, in terms of the context of the honeycomb partnership, the focus at AWS for D E and I is really significant, unpack that a little bit for us. >>Well, let me just bring it back to just how we think about it with the companies that we work with, but also in, in terms of, you know, what we want to be able to do, excuse me, it's very important for us to, you know, build products that reflect the customers that we have. And I think, you know, working with a company like honeycomb that is looking to differentiate in a space by, by bringing in, you know, the experiences of many different types of people I genuinely believe. And I'm sure Vera also believes that by having those diverse perspectives, that we're able to then build better products for our customers. And, you know, it's one of, one of our leadership principles is, is rooted in this. I write a lot, it asks for us to seek out diverse perspectives and you can't really do that if everybody kind of looks the same and thinks the same and has the same background. So I think that is where our de and I, you know, I thought process is rooted and, you know, companies like honeycomb that give customers choice and differentiate and help them to do what they need to do in their unique environments is super important. So >>The, the importance of thought diversity cannot be underscored enough. It's something that is, can be pivotal to organizations. And it's very nice to hear that that's so fundamental to both companies, Barry, I wanna go back to you for a second. You, I think you mentioned this, the DEI headstart program, that's an internal program at honeycomb. Can you shed a little bit of light on that? >>Yeah, that's right. And I actually am in the process of hiring a first engineer for my team. So I'm learning a lot of these things firsthand and how it works is we try to make sure to pre-load our pipeline of applicants for any new job opening we have with diverse candidates to the best of our abilities. And that can involve partnering with the organizations that I mentioned or reaching out to our internal network and make sure that we give those applicants a head start, so to speak. >>Excellent. I like that. Danielle, before we close, I wanna get a little bit of, of your background. We've got various background in tech, she's celebrating her 10th anniversary. Give me a, a short kind of description of the journey that you've navigated through being a female in technology. >>Yeah, thanks so much. I really appreciate being able to share this. So I started as a software engineer back actually in the late nineties during the, the first.com bubble and have, have spent quite a long time actually as an individual contributor, probably working in software engineering teams up through 2014 at a minimum until I joined AWS as a customer facing solutions architect. I do think spending a lot of time, hands on, definitely helped me with some of the imposter syndrome issues that folks suffer from not to say I don't at all, but it, it certainly helped with that. And I've been leading teens at AWS since 2015. So it's really been a great ride. And like I said, I'm very happy to see all of our engineering teams change as far as their composition. And I'm, I'm grateful to be part of it. >>It's pretty great to be able to witness that composition change for the better last question for each of you. And we're almost out of time and Danielle, I'm gonna stick with you. What's your advice or your recommendations for women who either are thinking about getting into tech or those who may be in tech, maybe they're in individual contributor positions and they're not sure if they should apply for that senior leadership position. What do you advise them to do? >>I mean, definitely for the individual contributors, tech tech is a great career direction and you will always be able to find women like you, you have to maybe just work a little bit harder to join, have community in that. But then as a leader, representation is very important and we can bring more women into tech by having more leaders. So that's my, you just have to take the lead, >>Take the lead, love it there. Same question for you. What's your advice and recommendations for those maybe future female leaders in tech? >>Yeah, absolutely. Danielle mentioned imposter syndrome and I think we all struggle with it from time to time, no matter how many years it's been. And I think for me, for me, the advice would be if you're starting out, don't be afraid to ask questions and don't be afraid to kind of show a, a little bit of ignorance because we've all been there. And I think it's on all of us to remember what it's like to not know how things work. And on the flip side of that, if you are a more senior IC or in a leadership role, also being able to model just saying, I don't know how this works and going and figuring out answers together because that was a really powerful shift for me early in my career is just to feel like I can say that I don't know something. >>I totally agree. I've been in that same situation where just ask the question because you I'm guaranteed. There's a million other people in the room that probably has the, have the same question. And because of imposter syndrome, don't wanna admit, I don't understand that. Can we back up, but I agree with you. I think that is one of the best things. Raise your hand, ask a question, ladies. Thank you so much for joining me talking about honeycomb and AWS, what you're doing together from a technology perspective and the focus efforts that each company has on D and I, we appreciate your insights. >>Thank you so much for having us great talking to you. >>My pleasure, likewise for my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the AWS partner showcase women in check.

>>Hey everyone. Welcome to the AWS partner showcase season one, episode three women in tech. I'm your host. Lisa Martin. I've got two female rock stars joining me. Next Vera Reynolds is here engineering manager, telemetry at honeycomb, and one of our Cub alumni, Danielle GShock ISV PSA director a at AWS joins us as well. Ladies. It's great to have you talking about a very important topic today. >>Thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. >>Of course, Vera, let's go ahead and start with you. Tell me about your background and tech. You're coming up on your 10th anniversary. Happy anniversary. >>Thank you. That's right. I can't believe it's been 10 years, but yeah, I started in tech in 2012. I was an engineer for most of that time. And just recently, as of March switched to engineering management here at honeycomb and, you know, throughout my career, I was very much interested in all the things, right. And it was a big FOMO as far as trying a few different companies and products. And I've done things from web development to mobile, to platforms. It would be apt to call me a generalist. And in the more recent years, I was sort of gravitating more towards developer tool space. And for me, that came in the form of cloud Foundry circle CI, and now honeycomb. I actually had my eye on honeycomb for a while before joining, I came across a blog post by charity majors. Who's one of our founders and she was actually talking about management and how to pursue that and whether or not it's right for your career. >>And so I was like, who is this person? I really like her found the company. They were pretty small at the time. So I was sort of keeping my eye on them. And then when the time came around for me to look again, I did a little bit more digging, found a lot of talks about the product. And on the one hand, they really spoke to me as the solution. They talked about developers owning their coding in production and answering questions about what is happening, what are your users seeing? And I felt that pain, I got what they were trying to do. And also on the other hand, every talk I saw at the time was from an amazing woman, which I haven't seen before. So I came across charity majors again, Christine yen, who our other founder, and then Liz Frank Jones, who our principal developer advocate. And that really sealed the deal for me as far as wanting to work here. >>Yeah. Honeycomb is interesting. This is a female founded company. You're two leaders. You mentioned that you like the technology, but you were also attracted because you saw females in the leadership position. Talk to me a little bit about what that's like working for a female led organization at honeycomb. >>Yeah. You know, historically we have tried not to over index on that because there was this maybe fear or rareness of it taking away from our legitimacy as an engineering organization, from our success as a company. But I'm seeing that rhetoric shift recently because we believe that with great responsibility with great power comes great responsibility. And we're trying to be more intentional as far as using that attribute of our company. So I would say that for me, it was a choice between a few offers, right. And that was a selling point, for sure, because again, I've never experienced it and I've really seen how much they walk that walk. Even me being here and me moving into management, I think were both ways in which they really put a lot of trust and support in me. And so I it's been a great ride. >>Excellent. Sounds like it. Before we bring Danielle in to talk about the partnership. I do wanna have you here, talk to the audience a little bit about honeycomb, what technology it's delivering and what are its differentiators. >>Yeah, absolutely. So honeycomb is an observability tool that enables engineers to answer questions about the code that runs in production. And we work with a number of various customers. Some of them are Vanguard, slack. Hello, fresh. Just to name a couple. If you're not familiar with observability tooling, it's akin to traditional application performance monitoring, but we believe that observability is succeeding APM because APM tools were built at the time of monoliths and they just weren't designed to help us answer questions about complex distributed systems that we work with today, where things can go wrong anywhere in that chain. And you can't predict what you're gonna need to ask ahead of time. So some of the ways that we are different is our ability to store and query really rich data, which we believe is the key to understanding those complex systems. What I mean by rich data is something that has a lot of attributes. >>So for example, when an error happens, knowing who it happened to, which user ID, which I don't know region, they were in, what, what, what they were doing at the time and what was happening at the rest of your system. And our ingest engine is really fast. You can do it in as little as three seconds and we call data like this. I said, kind of rich data, contextual data. We refer it as having high ity and high dimensionality, which are big words. But at the end of the day, what that means is we can store and we can query this data and we can do it really fast. And to give you an example of how that looks for our customers, let's say you have a developer team who are using comb to understand and observe their system. And they get a report that a user is experiencing a slowdown or something's wrong. >>They can go into honeycomb and figure out that this only happens to users who are using a particular language pack with their app. And they operated their app last week, that it only happens when they are trying to upload a file. And so it's this level of granularity and being able to zoom in and out under data that allows you to understand what's happening, especially when you have an incident going on, right. Or your really important high profile customer is telling you that something's wrong. And we can do that. Even if everything else in your other tools looks fine, right? All of your dashboards are okay. You're not actually getting paged on it, but your customers are telling you that something's wrong. And we believe that's where we shine in helping you there. >>Excellent. It sounds like that's where you really shine that real time visibility is so critical these days. Danielle, Danielle, wanna bring you into the conversation. Talk to us a little bit about the honeycomb partnership from the AWS lens. >>Yeah. So excuse me, observability is obviously a very important segment in the cloud space, very important to AWS, because a lot of all of our customers, as they build their systems distributed, they need to be able to see where, where things are happening in the complex systems that they're building. And so honeycomb is a, is an advanced technology partner. They've been working with us for quite some time and they have a, their solution is listed on the marketplace. Definitely something that we see a lot of demand with our customers, and they have many integrations, which, you know, we've seen is key to success. Being able to work seamlessly with the rest of the services inside of the AWS platform. And I know that they've done some, some great things with people who are trying to develop games on top of AWS things in that area as well. And so very important partner in the observa observability market that we have. >>Vera a back to you, let's kind of unpack the partnership, the significance that honeycomb ha is getting from being partners with an organization as potent and pivotal as AWS. >>Yeah, absolutely. I Don know that this Predates me to some extent, but I Don know for a long time, AWS and honeycomb has really pushed the envelope together. And I think it's a beneficial relationship for both ends. There's kind of two ways of looking at it. On the one side, there is our own infrastructure. So honeycomb runs on AWS and actually one of our critical workloads that supports that fast query engine that I mentioned uses Lambda. And it does also in a pretty unorthodox way. So we've had a long standing conversation with the AWS team as far as drawing outside those lines and kind of figuring out how to use the technology in a way that works for us and hopefully will work for other customers of theirs as well. That also allows us to ask for early access for certain features when they become available. >>And then that way we can be sort of the Guinea pigs and try things out in a way that migrates our system and optimizes our own performance, but also allows again, other customers of AWS to follow in that path. And then the other side of that partnership is really supporting our customers who are both honeycomb users and AWS users, because it's, as you imagine, quite a big overlap, and there are certain ways in which we can allow our customers to more easily get their data from AWS to honeycomb. So for example, last year, we built a tool based on the new Lambda extension capability that allowed our users who run their applications in Lambdas to get that tele telemetry data out of their applications and into honeycomb and demand was win-win >>Excellent. So I'm hearing a lot of synergies from a technology perspective, you're sticking with you, and then Danielle will bring you in. Let's talk about how honeycomb supports D E and I across its organization. And how is that synergistic with AWS's approach Vera? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I sort of alluded to that hesitancy to over index on the women led aspect of ourselves. But again, a lot of things are shifting, we're growing a lot. And so we are recognizing that we need to be more intentional with our DEI initiatives, and we also notice that we can do better and we should do better. And to that end, we're doing a few things differently that are pretty recent initiatives. We are partnering with organizations that help us target specific communities that are underrepresented in tech. Some examples would be Africa, tech hu Latinas in tech among a number of others. And another initiative is DEI head start. That's something that is an internal practice that we started that includes reaching out to underrepresented applicants before any new job for honeycomb becomes live. So before we posted to LinkedIn, before it's even live on our job speech, and the idea there is to kind of balance our pipeline of applicants, which the hope is will lead to more diverse hires in the long term. >>That's a great focus there. Danielle, I know we've talked about this before, but for the audience, in terms of the context of the honeycomb partnership, the focus at AWS for D E and I is really significant, unpack that a little bit for us. >>Well, let me just bring it back to just how we think about it with the companies that we work with, but also in, in terms of, you know, what we want to be able to do, excuse me, it's very important for us to, you know, build products that reflect the customers that we have. And I think, you know, working with a company like honeycomb that is looking to differentiate in a space by, by bringing in, you know, the experiences of many different types of people I genuinely believe. And I'm sure Vera also believes that by having those diverse perspectives, that we're able to then build better products for our customers. And, you know, it's one of, one of our leadership principles is, is rooted in this. I write a lot, it asks for us to seek out diverse perspectives and you can't really do that if everybody kind of looks the same and thinks the same and has the same background. So I think that is where our de and I, you know, I thought process is rooted and, you know, companies like honeycomb that give customers choice and differentiate and help them to do what they need to do in their unique environments is super important. So >>The, the importance of thought diversity cannot be underscored enough. It's something that is, can be pivotal to organizations. And it's very nice to hear that that's so fundamental to both companies, Barry, I wanna go back to you for a second. You, I think you mentioned this, the DEI head start program, that's an internal program at honeycomb. Can you shed a little bit of light on that? >>Yeah, that's right. And I actually am in the process of hiring a first engineer for my team. So I'm learning a lot of these things firsthand and how it works is we try to make sure to pre-load our pipeline of applicants for any new job opening we have with diverse candidates to the best of our abilities. And that can involve partnering with the organizations that I mentioned or reaching out to our internal network and make sure that we give those applicants a head start, so to speak. >>Excellent. I like that. Danielle, before we close, I wanna get a little bit of, of your background. We've got various background in tech, she's celebrating her 10th anniversary. Give me a, a short kind of description of the journey that you've navigated through being a female in technology. >>Yeah, thanks so much. I really appreciate being able to share this. So I started as a software engineer back actually in the late nineties during the, the first.com bubble and have, have spent quite a long time actually as an individual contributor, probably working in software engineering teams up through 2014 at a minimum until I joined AWS as a customer facing solutions architect. I do think spending a lot of time, hands on, definitely helped me with some of the imposter syndrome issues that folks suffer from not to say I don't at all, but it, it certainly helped with that. And I've been leading teen at AWS since 2015. So it's really been a great ride. And like I said, I'm very happy to see all of our engineering teams change as far as their composition. And I'm, I'm grateful to be part of it. >>It's pretty great to be able to witness that composition change for the better last question for each of you. And we're almost out of time and Danielle, I'm gonna stick with you. What's your advice, your recommendations for women who either are thinking about getting into tech or those who may be in tech, maybe they're in individual contributor positions, and they're not sure if they should apply for that senior leadership position. What do you advise them to do? >>I mean, definitely for the individual contributors, tech tech is a great career direction and you will always be able to find women like you, you have to maybe just work a little bit harder to join, have community in that. But then as a leader, representation is very important and we can bring more women into tech by having more leaders. So that's my, you just have to take the lead, >>Take the lead. Love that various same question for you. What's your advice and recommendations for those maybe future female leaders in tech? >>Yeah, absolutely. Danielle mentioned imposter syndrome and I think we all struggle with it from time to time, no matter how many years it's been. And I think for me, for me, the advice would be if you're starting out, don't be afraid to ask questions and don't be afraid to kind of show a bit, a little bit of ignorance because we've all been there. And I think it's on all of us to remember what it's like to not know how things work. And on the flip side of that, if you are a more senior IC or in a leadership role, also being able to model just saying, I don't know how this works and going and figuring out answers together because that was a really powerful shift for me early in my career is just to feel like I can say that I don't know something. >>I totally agree. I've been in that same situation where just ask the question because you I'm guaranteed. There's a million outta people in the room that probably has the, have the same question and because an imposter syndrome don't wanna admit, I don't understand that. Can we back up, but I agree with you. I think that is one of the best things. Raise your hand and ask a question, ladies. Thank you so much for joining me talking about honeycomb and AWS, what you're doing together from a technology perspective and the focus efforts that each company has on D E and I, we appreciate your insights. >>Thank you so much for having us talking to >>My pleasure. Likewise, for my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the AWS partner showcase women in.

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> The pandemic has changed the way we think about and predict the future. As we enter the third year of a global pandemic, we see the significant impact that it's had on technology strategy, spending patterns, and company fortunes Much has changed. And while many of these changes were forced reactions to a new abnormal, the trends that we've seen over the past 24 months have become more entrenched, and point to the way that's coming ahead in the technology business. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we welcome our partner and colleague and business friend, Erik Porter Bradley, as we deliver what's becoming an annual tradition for Erik and me, our predictions for Enterprise Technology in 2022 and beyond Erik, welcome. Thanks for taking some time out. >> Thank you, Dave. Luckily we did pretty well last year, so we were able to do this again. So hopefully we can keep that momentum going. >> Yeah, you know, I want to mention that, you know, we get a lot of inbound predictions from companies and PR firms that help shape our thinking. But one of the main objectives that we have is we try to make predictions that can be measured. That's why we use a lot of data. Now not all will necessarily fit that parameter, but if you've seen the grading of our 2021 predictions that Erik and I did, you'll see we do a pretty good job of trying to put forth prognostications that can be declared correct or not, you know, as black and white as possible. Now let's get right into it. Our first prediction, we're going to go run into spending, something that ETR surveys for quarterly. And we've reported extensively on this. We're calling for tech spending to increase somewhere around 8% in 2022, we can see there on the slide, Erik, we predicted spending last year would increase by 4% IDC. Last check was came in at five and a half percent. Gardner was somewhat higher, but in general, you know, not too bad, but looking ahead, we're seeing an acceleration from the ETR September surveys, as you can see in the yellow versus the blue bar in this chart, many of the SMBs that were hard hit by the pandemic are picking up spending again. And the ETR data is showing acceleration above the mean for industries like energy, utilities, retail, and services, and also, notably, in the Forbes largest 225 private companies. These are companies like Mars or Koch industries. They're predicting well above average spending for 2022. So Erik, please weigh in here. >> Yeah, a lot to bring up on this one, I'm going to be quick. So 1200 respondents on this, over a third of which were at the C-suite level. So really good data that we brought in, the usual bucket of, you know, fortune 500, global 2000 make up the meat of that median, but it's 8.3% and rising with momentum as we see. What's really interesting right now is that energy and utilities. This is usually like, you know, an orphan stock dividend type of play. You don't see them at the highest point of tech spending. And the reason why right now is really because this state of tech infrastructure in our energy infrastructure needs help. And it's obvious, remember the Florida municipality break reach last year? When they took over the water systems or they had the ability to? And this is a real issue, you know, there's bad nation state actors out there, and I'm no alarmist, but the energy and utility has to spend this money to keep up. It's really important. And then you also hit on the retail consumer. Obviously what's happened, the work from home shift created a shop from home shift, and the trends that are happening right now in retail. If you don't spend and keep up, you're not going to be around much longer. So I think the really two interesting things here to call out are energy utilities, usually a laggard in IT spend and it's leading, and also retail consumer, a lot of changes happening. >> Yeah. Great stuff. I mean, I recall when we entered the pandemic, really ETR was the first to emphasize the impact that work from home was going to have, so I really put a lot of weight on this data. Okay. Our next prediction is we're going to get into security, it's one of our favorite topics. And that is that the number one priority that needs to be addressed by organizations in 2022 is security and you can see, in this slide, the degree to which security is top of mind, relative to some other pretty important areas like cloud, productivity, data, and automation, and some others. Now people may say, "Oh, this is obvious." But I'm going to add some context here, Erik, and then bring you in. First, organizations, they don't have unlimited budgets. And there are a lot of competing priorities for dollars, especially with the digital transformation mandate. And depending on the size of the company, this data will vary. For example, while security is still number one at the largest public companies, and those are of course of the biggest spenders, it's not nearly as pronounced as it is on average, or in, for example, mid-sized companies and government agencies. And this is because midsized companies or smaller companies, they don't have the resources that larger companies do. Larger companies have done a better job of securing their infrastructure. So these mid-size firms are playing catch up and the data suggests cyber is even a bigger priority there, gaps that they have to fill, you know, going forward. And that's why we think there's going to be more demand for MSSPs, managed security service providers. And we may even see some IPO action there. And then of course, Erik, you and I have talked about events like the SolarWinds Hack, there's more ransomware attacks, other vulnerabilities. Just recently, like Log4j in December. All of this has heightened concerns. Now I want to talk a little bit more about how we measure this, you know, relatively, okay, it's an obvious prediction, but let's stick our necks out a little bit. And so in addition to the rise of managed security services, we're calling for M&A and/or IPOs, we've specified some names here on this chart, and we're also pointing to the digital supply chain as an area of emphasis. Again, Log4j really shone that under a light. And this is going to help the likes of Auth0, which is now Okta, SailPoint, which is called out on this chart, and some others. We're calling some winners in end point security. Erik, you're going to talk about sort of that lifecycle, that transformation that we're seeing, that migration to new endpoint technologies that are going to benefit from this reset refresh cycle. So Erik, weigh in here, let's talk about some of the elements of this prediction and some of the names on that chart. >> Yeah, certainly. I'm going to start right with Log4j top of mind. And the reason why is because we're seeing a real paradigm shift here where things are no longer being attacked at the network layer, they're being attacked at the application layer, and in the application stack itself. And that is a huge shift left. And that's taking in DevSecOps now as a real priority in 2022. That's a real paradigm shift over the last 20 years. That's not where attacks used to come from. And this is going to have a lot of changes. You called out a bunch of names in there that are, they're either going to work. I would add to that list Wiz. I would add Orca Security. Two names in our emerging technology study, in addition to the ones you added that are involved in cloud security and container security. These names are either going to get gobbled up. So the traditional legacy names are going to have to start writing checks and, you know, legacy is not fair, but they're in the data center, right? They're, on-prem, they're not cloud native. So these are the names that money is going to be flowing to. So they're either going to get gobbled up, or we're going to see some IPO's. And on the other thing I want to talk about too, is what you mentioned. We have CrowdStrike on that list, We have SentinalOne on the list. Everyone knows them. Our data was so strong on Tanium that we actually went positive for the first time just today, just this morning, where that was released. The trifecta of these are so important because of what you mentioned, under resourcing. We can't have security just tell us when something happens, it has to automate, and it has to respond. So in this next generation of EDR and XDR, an automated response has to happen because people are under-resourced, salaries are really high, there's a skill shortage out there. Security has to become responsive. It can't just monitor anymore. >> Yeah. Great. And we should call out too. So we named some names, Snyk, Aqua, Arctic Wolf, Lacework, Netskope, Illumio. These are all sort of IPO, or possibly even M&A candidates. All right. Our next prediction goes right to the way we work. Again, something that ETR has been on for awhile. We're calling for a major rethink in remote work for 2022. We had predicted last year that by the end of 2021, there'd be a larger return to the office with the norm being around a third of workers permanently remote. And of course the variants changed that equation and, you know, gave more time for people to think about this idea of hybrid work and that's really come in to focus. So we're predicting that is going to overtake fully remote as the dominant work model with only about a third of the workers back in the office full-time. And Erik, we expect a somewhat lower percentage to be fully remote. It's now sort of dipped under 30%, at around 29%, but it's still significantly higher than the historical average of around 15 to 16%. So still a major change, but this idea of hybrid and getting hybrid right, has really come into focus. Hasn't it? >> Yeah. It's here to stay. There's no doubt about it. We started this in March of 2020, as soon as the virus hit. This is the 10th iteration of the survey. No one, no one ever thought we'd see a number where only 34% of people were going to be in office permanently. That's a permanent number. They're expecting only a third of the workers to ever come back fully in office. And against that, there's 63% that are saying their permanent workforce is going to be either fully remote or hybrid. And this, I can't really explain how big of a paradigm shift this is. Since the start of the industrial revolution, people leave their house and go to work. Now they're saying that's not going to happen. The economic impact here is so broad, on so many different areas And, you know, the reason is like, why not? Right? The productivity increase is real. We're seeing the productivity increase. Enterprises are spending on collaboration tools, productivity tools, We're seeing an increased perception in productivity of their workforce. And the CFOs can cut down an expense item. I just don't see a reason why this would end, you know, I think it's going to continue. And I also want to point out these results, as high as they are, were before the Omicron wave hit us. I can only imagine what these results would have been if we had sent the survey out just two or three weeks later. >> Yeah. That's a great point. Okay. Next prediction, we're going to look at the supply chain, specifically in how it's affecting some of the hardware spending and cloud strategies in the future. So in this chart, ETRS buyers, have you experienced problems procuring hardware as a result of supply chain issues? And, you know, despite the fact that some companies are, you know, I would call out Dell, for example, doing really well in terms of delivering, you can see that in the numbers, it's pretty clear, there's been an impact. And that's not not an across the board, you know, thing where vendors are able to deliver, especially acute in PCs, but also pronounced in networking, also in firewall servers and storage. And what's interesting is how companies are responding and reacting. So first, you know, I'm going to call the laptop and PC demand staying well above pre-COVID norms. It had peaked in 2012. Pre-pandemic it kept dropping and dropping and dropping, in terms of, you know, unit volume, where the market was contracting. And we think can continue to grow this year in double digits in 2022. But what's interesting, Erik, is when you survey customers, is despite the difficulty they're having in procuring network hardware, there's as much of a migration away from existing networks to the cloud. You could probably comment on that. Their networks are more fossilized, but when it comes to firewalls and servers and storage, there's a much higher propensity to move to the cloud. 30% of customers that ETR surveyed will replace security appliances with cloud services and 41% and 34% respectively will move to cloud compute and storage in 2022. So cloud's relentless march on traditional on-prem models continues. Erik, what do you make of this data? Please weigh in on this prediction. >> As if we needed another reason to go to the cloud. Right here, here it is yet again. So this was added to the survey by client demand. They were asking about the procurement difficulties, the supply chain issues, and how it was impacting our community. So this is the first time we ran it. And it really was interesting to see, you know, the move there. And storage particularly I found interesting because it correlated with a huge jump that we saw on one of our vendor names, which was Rubrik, had the highest net score that it's ever had. So clearly we're seeing some correlation with some of these names that are there, you know, really well positioned to take storage, to take data into the cloud. So again, you didn't need another reason to, you know, hasten this digital transformation, but here we are, we have it yet again, and I don't see it slowing down anytime soon. >> You know, that's a really good point. I mean, it's not necessarily bad news for the... I mean, obviously you wish that it had no change, would be great, but things, you know, always going to change. So we'll talk about this a little bit later when we get into the Supercloud conversation, but this is an opportunity for people who embrace the cloud. So we'll come back to that. And I want to hang on cloud a bit and share some recent projections that we've made. The next prediction is the big four cloud players are going to surpass 167 billion, an IaaS and PaaS revenue in 2022. We track this. Observers of this program know that we try to create an apples to apples comparison between AWS, Azure, GCP and Alibaba in IaaS and PaaS. So we're calling for 38% revenue growth in 2022, which is astounding for such a massive market. You know, AWS is probably not going to hit a hundred billion dollar run rate, but they're going to be close this year. And we're going to get there by 2023, you know they're going to surpass that. Azure continues to close the gap. Now they're about two thirds of the size of AWS and Google, we think is going to surpass Alibaba and take the number three spot. Erik, anything you'd like to add here? >> Yeah, first of all, just on a sector level, we saw our sector, new survey net score on cloud jumped another 10%. It was already really high at 48. Went up to 53. This train is not slowing down anytime soon. And we even added an edge compute type of player, like CloudFlare into our cloud bucket this year. And it debuted with a net score of almost 60. So this is really an area that's expanding, not just the big three, but everywhere. We even saw Oracle and IBM jump up. So even they're having success, taking some of their on-prem customers and then selling them to their cloud services. This is a massive opportunity and it's not changing anytime soon, it's going to continue. >> And I think the operative word there is opportunity. So, you know, the next prediction is something that we've been having fun with and that's this Supercloud becomes a thing. Now, the reason I say we've been having fun is we put this concept of Supercloud out and it's become a bit of a controversy. First, you know, what the heck's the Supercloud right? It's sort of a buzz-wordy term, but there really is, we believe, a thing here. We think there needs to be a rethinking or at least an evolution of the term multi-cloud. And what we mean is that in our view, you know, multicloud from a vendor perspective was really cloud compatibility. It wasn't marketed that way, but that's what it was. Either a vendor would containerize its legacy stack, shove it into the cloud, or a company, you know, they'd do the work, they'd build a cloud native service on one of the big clouds and they did do it for AWS, and then Azure, and then Google. But there really wasn't much, if any, leverage across clouds. Now from a buyer perspective, we've always said multicloud was a symptom of multi-vendor, meaning I got different workloads, running in different clouds, or I bought a company and they run on Azure, and I do a lot of work on AWS, but generally it wasn't necessarily a prescribed strategy to build value on top of hyperscale infrastructure. There certainly was somewhat of a, you know, reducing lock-in and hedging the risk. But we're talking about something more here. We're talking about building value on top of the hyperscale gift of hundreds of billions of dollars in CapEx. So in addition, we're not just talking about transforming IT, which is what the last 10 years of cloud have been like. And, you know, doing work in the cloud because it's cheaper or simpler or more agile, all of those things. So that's beginning to change. And this chart shows some of the technology vendors that are leaning toward this Supercloud vision, in our view, building on top of the hyperscalers that are highlighted in red. Now, Jerry Chan at Greylock, they wrote a piece called Castles in the Cloud. It got our thinking going, and he and the team at Greylock, they're building out a database of all the cloud services and all the sub-markets in cloud. And that got us thinking that there's a higher level of abstraction coalescing in the market, where there's tight integration of services across clouds, but the underlying complexity is hidden, and there's an identical experience across clouds, and even, in my dreams, on-prem for some platforms, so what's new or new-ish and evolving are things like location independence, you've got to include the edge on that, metadata services to optimize locality of reference and data source awareness, governance, privacy, you know, application independent and dependent, actually, recovery across clouds. So we're seeing this evolve. And in our view, the two biggest things that are new are the technology is evolving, where you're seeing services truly integrate cross-cloud. And the other big change is digital transformation, where there's this new innovation curve developing, and it's not just about making your IT better. It's about SaaS-ifying and automating your entire company workflows. So Supercloud, it's not just a vendor thing to us. It's the evolution of, you know, the, the Marc Andreessen quote, "Every company will be a SaaS company." Every company will deliver capabilities that can be consumed as cloud services. So Erik, the chart shows spending momentum on the y-axis and net score, or presence in the ETR data center, or market share on the x-axis. We've talked about snowflake as the poster child for this concept where the vision is you're in their cloud and sharing data in that safe place. Maybe you could make some comments, you know, what do you think of this Supercloud concept and this change that we're sensing in the market? >> Well, I think you did a great job describing the concept. So maybe I'll support it a little bit on the vendor level and then kind of give examples of the ones that are doing it. You stole the lead there with Snowflake, right? There is no better example than what we've seen with what Snowflake can do. Cross-portability in the cloud, the ability to be able to be, you know, completely agnostic, but then build those services on top. They're better than anything they could offer. And it's not just there. I mean, you mentioned edge compute, that's a whole nother layer where this is coming in. And CloudFlare, the momentum there is out of control. I mean, this is a company that started off just doing CDN and trying to compete with Okta Mite. And now they're giving you a full soup to nuts with security and actual edge compute layer, but it's a fantastic company. What they're doing, it's another great example of what you're seeing here. I'm going to call out HashiCorp as well. They're more of an infrastructure services, a little bit more of an open-source freemium model, but what they're doing as well is completely cloud agnostic. It's dynamic. It doesn't care if you're in a container, it doesn't matter where you are. They recently IPO'd and they're down 25%, but their data looks so good across both of our emerging technology and TISA survey. It's certainly another name that's playing on this. And another one that we mentioned as well is Rubrik. If you need storage, compute, and in the cloud layer and you need to be agnostic to it, they're another one that's really playing in this space. So I think it's a great concept you're bringing up. I think it's one that's here to stay and there's certainly a lot of vendors that fit into what you're describing. >> Excellent. Thank you. All right, let's shift to data. The next prediction, it might be a little tough to measure. Before I said we're trying to be a little black and white here, but it relates to Data Mesh, which is, the ideas behind that term were created by Zhamak Dehghani of ThoughtWorks. And we see Data Mesh is really gaining momentum in 2022, but it's largely going to be, we think, confined to a more narrow scope. Now, the impetus for change in data architecture in many companies really stems from the fact that their Hadoop infrastructure really didn't solve their data problems and they struggle to get more value out of their data investments. Data Mesh prescribes a shift to a decentralized architecture in domain ownership of data and a shift to data product thinking, beyond data for analytics, but data products and services that can be monetized. Now this a very powerful in our view, but they're difficult for organizations to get their heads around and further decentralization creates the need for a self-service platform and federated data governance that can be automated. And not a lot of standards around this. So it's going to take some time. At our power panel a couple of weeks ago on data management, Tony Baer predicted a backlash on Data Mesh. And I don't think it's going to be so much of a backlash, but rather the adoption will be more limited. Most implementations we think are going to use a starting point of AWS and they'll enable domains to access and control their own data lakes. And while that is a very small slice of the Data Mesh vision, I think it's going to be a starting point. And the last thing I'll say is, this is going to take a decade to evolve, but I think it's the right direction. And whether it's a data lake or a data warehouse or a data hub or an S3 bucket, these are really, the concept is, they'll eventually just become nodes on the data mesh that are discoverable and access is governed. And so the idea is that the stranglehold that the data pipeline and process and hyper-specialized roles that they have on data agility is going to evolve. And decentralized architectures and the democratization of data will eventually become a norm for a lot of different use cases. And Erik, I wonder if you'd add anything to this. >> Yeah. There's a lot to add there. The first thing that jumped out to me was that that mention of the word backlash you said, and you said it's not really a backlash, but what it could be is these are new words trying to solve an old problem. And I do think sometimes the industry will notice that right away and maybe that'll be a little pushback. And the problems are what you already mentioned, right? We're trying to get to an area where we can have more assets in our data site, more deliverable, and more usable and relevant to the business. And you mentioned that as self-service with governance laid on top. And that's really what we're trying to get to. Now, there's a lot of ways you can get there. Data fabric is really the technical aspect and data mesh is really more about the people, the process, and the governance, but the two of those need to meet, in order to make that happen. And as far as tools, you know, there's even cataloging names like Informatica that play in this, right? Istio plays in this, Snowflake plays in this. So there's a lot of different tools that will support it. But I think you're right in calling out AWS, right? They have AWS Lake, they have AWS Glue. They have so much that's trying to drive this. But I think the really important thing to keep here is what you said. It's going to be a decade long journey. And by the way, we're on the shoulders of giants a decade ago that have even gotten us to this point to talk about these new words because this has been an ongoing type of issue, but ultimately, no matter which vendors you use, this is going to come down to your data governance plan and the data literacy in your business. This is really about workflows and people as much as it is tools. So, you know, the new term of data mesh is wonderful, but you still have to have the people and the governance and the processes in place to get there. >> Great, thank you for that, Erik. Some great points. All right, for the next prediction, we're going to shine the spotlight on two of our favorite topics, Snowflake and Databricks, and the prediction here is that, of course, Databricks is going to IPO this year, as expected. Everybody sort of expects that. And while, but the prediction really is, well, while these two companies are facing off already in the market, they're also going to compete with each other for M&A, especially as Databricks, you know, after the IPO, you're going to have, you know, more prominence and a war chest. So first, these companies, they're both looking pretty good, the same XY graph with spending velocity and presence and market share on the horizontal axis. And both Snowflake and Databricks are well above that magic 40% red dotted line, the elevated line, to us. And for context, we've included a few other firms. So you can see kind of what a good position these two companies are really in, especially, I mean, Snowflake, wow, it just keeps moving to the right on this horizontal picture, but maintaining the next net score in the Y axis. Amazing. So, but here's the thing, Databricks is using the term Lakehouse implying that it has the best of data lakes and data warehouses. And Snowflake has the vision of the data cloud and data sharing. And Snowflake, they've nailed analytics, and now they're moving into data science in the domain of Databricks. Databricks, on the other hand, has nailed data science and is moving into the domain of Snowflake, in the data warehouse and analytics space. But to really make this seamless, there has to be a semantic layer between these two worlds and they're either going to build it or buy it or both. And there are other areas like data clean rooms and privacy and data prep and governance and machine learning tooling and AI, all that stuff. So the prediction is they'll not only compete in the market, but they'll step up and in their competition for M&A, especially after the Databricks IPO. We've listed some target names here, like Atscale, you know, Iguazio, Infosum, Habu, Immuta, and I'm sure there are many, many others. Erik, you care to comment? >> Yeah. I remember a year ago when we were talking Snowflake when they first came out and you, and I said, "I'm shocked if they don't use this war chest of money" "and start going after more" "because we know Slootman, we have so much respect for him." "We've seen his playbook." And I'm actually a little bit surprised that here we are, at 12 months later, and he hasn't spent that money yet. So I think this prediction's just spot on. To talk a little bit about the data side, Snowflake is in rarefied air. It's all by itself. It is the number one net score in our entire TISA universe. It is absolutely incredible. There's almost no negative intentions. Global 2000 organizations are increasing their spend on it. We maintain our positive outlook. It's really just, you know, stands alone. Databricks, however, also has one of the highest overall net sentiments in the entire universe, not just its area. And this is the first time we're coming up positive on this name as well. It looks like it's not slowing down. Really interesting comment you made though that we normally hear from our end-user commentary in our panels and our interviews. Databricks is really more used for the data science side. The MLAI is where it's best positioned in our survey. So it might still have some catching up to do to really have that caliber of usability that you know Snowflake is seeing right now. That's snowflake having its own marketplace. There's just a lot more to Snowflake right now than there is Databricks. But I do think you're right. These two massive vendors are sort of heading towards a collision course, and it'll be very interesting to see how they deploy their cash. I think Snowflake, with their incredible management and leadership, probably will make the first move. >> Well, I think you're right on that. And by the way, I'll just add, you know, Databricks has basically said, hey, it's going to be easier for us to come from data lakes into data warehouse. I'm not sure I buy that. I think, again, that semantic layer is a missing ingredient. So it's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out. And to your point, you know, Snowflake's got the war chest, they got the momentum, they've got the public presence now since November, 2020. And so, you know, they're probably going to start making some aggressive moves. Anyway, next prediction is something, Erik, that you and I have talked about many, many times, and that is observability. I know it's one of your favorite topics. And we see this world screaming for more consolidation it's going all in on cloud native. These legacy stacks, they're fighting to stay relevant, but the direction is pretty clear. And the same XY graph lays out the players in the field, with some of the new entrants that we've also highlighted, like Observe and Honeycomb and ChaosSearch that we've talked about. Erik, we put a big red target around Splunk because everyone wants their gold. So please give us your thoughts. >> Oh man, I feel like I've been saying negative things about Splunk for too long. I've got a bad rap on this name. The Splunk shareholders come after me all the time. Listen, it really comes down to this. They're a fantastic company that was designed to do logging and monitoring and had some great tool sets around what you could do with it. But they were designed for the data center. They were designed for prem. The world we're in now is so dynamic. Everything I hear from our end user community is that all net new workloads will be going to cloud native players. It's that simple. So Splunk has entrenched. It's going to continue doing what it's doing and it does it really, really well. But if you're doing something new, the new workloads are going to be in a dynamic environment and that's going to go to the cloud native players. And in our data, it is extremely clear that that means Datadog and Elastic. They are by far number one and two in net score, increase rates, adoption rates. It's not even close. Even New Relic actually is starting to, you know, entrench itself really well. We saw New Relic's adoption's going up, which is super important because they went to that freemium model, you know, to try to get their little bit of an entrenched customer base and that's working as well. And then you made a great list here, of all the new entrants, but it goes beyond this. There's so many more. In our emerging technology survey, we're seeing Century, Catchpoint, Securonix, Lucid Works. There are so many options in this space. And let's not forget, the biggest data that we're seeing is with Grafana. And Grafana labs as yet to turn on their enterprise. Elastic did it, why can't Grafana labs do it? They have an enterprise stack. So when you look at how crowded this space is, there has to be consolidation. I recently hosted a panel and every single guy on that panel said, "Please give me a consolidation." Because they're the end users trying to actually deploy these and it's getting a little bit confusing. >> Great. Thank you for that. Okay. Last prediction. Erik, might be a little out of your wheelhouse, but you know, you might have some thoughts on it. And that's a hybrid events become the new digital model and a new category in 2022. You got these pure play digital or virtual events. They're going to take a back seat to in-person hybrids. The virtual experience will eventually give way to metaverse experiences and that's going to take some time, but the physical hybrid is going to drive it. And metaverse is ultimately going to define the virtual experience because the virtual experience today is not great. Nobody likes virtual. And hybrid is going to become the business model. Today's pure virtual experience has to evolve, you know, theCUBE first delivered hybrid mid last decade, but nobody really wanted it. We did Mobile World Congress last summer in Barcelona in an amazing hybrid model, which we're showing in some of the pictures here. Alex, if you don't mind bringing that back up. And every physical event that we're we're doing now has a hybrid and virtual component, including the pre-records. You can see in our studios, you see that the green screen. I don't know. Erik, what do you think about, you know, the Zoom fatigue and all this. I know you host regular events with your round tables, but what are your thoughts? >> Well, first of all, I think you and your company here have just done an amazing job on this. So that's really your expertise. I spent 20 years of my career hosting intimate wall street idea dinners. So I'm better at navigating a wine list than I am navigating a conference floor. But I will say that, you know, the trend just goes along with what we saw. If 35% are going to be fully remote. If 70% are going to be hybrid, then our events are going to be as well. I used to host round table dinners on, you know, one or two nights a week. Now those have gone virtual. They're now panels. They're now one-on-one interviews. You know, we do chats. We do submitted questions. We do what we can, but there's no reason that this is going to change anytime soon. I think you're spot on here. >> Yeah. Great. All right. So there you have it, Erik and I, Listen, we always love the feedback. Love to know what you think. Thank you, Erik, for your partnership, your collaboration, and love doing these predictions with you. >> Yeah. I always enjoy them too. And I'm actually happy. Last year you made us do a baker's dozen, so thanks for keeping it to 10 this year. >> (laughs) We've got a lot to say. I know, you know, we cut out. We didn't do much on crypto. We didn't really talk about SaaS. I mean, I got some thoughts there. We didn't really do much on containers and AI. >> You want to keep going? I've got another 10 for you. >> RPA...All right, we'll have you back and then let's do that. All right. All right. Don't forget, these episodes are all available as podcasts, wherever you listen, all you can do is search Breaking Analysis podcast. Check out ETR's website at etr.plus, they've got a new website out. It's the best data in the industry, and we publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can always reach out on email, David.Vellante@siliconangle.com I'm @DVellante on Twitter. Comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. (mellow music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, Bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Recent survey data from ETR shows that enterprise tech spending is tracking with projected US GDP growth at six to 7% this year. Many markers continue to point the way to a strong recovery, including hiring trends and the loosening of frozen IT Project budgets. However skills shortages are blocking progress at some companies which bodes well for an increased reliance on external IT services. Moreover, while there's much talk about the rotation out of work from home plays and stocks such as video conferencing, VDI, and other remote worker tech, we see organizations still trying to figure out the ideal balance between funding headquarter investments that have been neglected and getting hybrid work right. In particular, the talent gap combined with a digital mandate, means companies face some tough decisions as to how to fund the future while serving existing customers and transforming culturally. Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE's Insights powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis", we welcome back Erik Porter Bradley of ETR who will share fresh data, perspectives and insights from the latest survey data. Erik, great to see you. Welcome. >> Thank you very much, Dave. Always good to see you and happy to be on the show again. >> Okay, we're going to share some macro data and then we're going to dig into some highlights from ETR's most recent March COVID survey and also the latest April data. So Erik, the first chart that we want to show, it shows CIO and IT buyer responses to expected IT spend for each quarter of 2021 versus 2020, and you can see here a steady quarterly improvement. Erik, what are the key takeaways, from your perspective? >> Sure, well, first of all, for everyone out there, this particular survey had a record-setting number of participation. We had a 1,500 IT decision makers participate and we had over half of the Fortune 500 and over a fifth of the Global 1000. So it was a really good survey. This is seventh iteration of the COVID Impact Survey specifically, and this is going to transition to an overlarge macro survey going forward so we can continue it. And you're 100% right, what we've been tracking here since March of last year was, how is spending being impacted because of COVID? Where is it shifting? And what we're seeing now finally is that there is a real re-acceleration in spend. I know we've been a little bit more cautious than some of the other peers out there that just early on slapped an eight or a 9% number, but what we're seeing is right now, it's at a midpoint of over six, about 6.7% and that is accelerating. So, we are still hopeful that that will continue, and really, that spending is going to be in the second half of the year. As you can see on the left part of this chart that we're looking at, it was about 1.7% versus 3% for Q1 spending year-over-year. So that is starting to accelerate through the back half. >> I think it's prudent to be cautious (indistinct) 'cause normally you'd say, okay, tech is going to grow a couple of points higher than GDP, but it's really so hard to predict this year. Okay, the next chart here that we want to show you is we asked respondents to indicate what strategies they're employing in the short term as a result of coronavirus and you can see a few things that I'll call out and then I'll ask Erik to chime in. First, there's been no meaningful change of course, no surprise in tactics like remote work and holding travel, however, we're seeing very positive trends in other areas trending downward, like hiring freezes and freezing IT deployments, a downward trend in layoffs, and we also see an increase in the acceleration of new IT deployments and in hiring. Erik, what are your key takeaways? >> Well, first of all, I think it's important to point out here that we're also capturing that people believe remote work productivity is still increasing. Now, the trajectory might be coming down a little bit, but that is really key, I think, to the backdrop of what's happening here. So people have a perception that productivity of remote work is better than hybrid work and that's from the IT decision makers themselves, but what we're seeing here is that, most importantly, these organizations are citing plans to increase hiring, and that's something that I think is really important to point out. It's showing a real following, and to your point right in the beginning of the intro, we are seeing deployments stabilize versus prior survey levels, which means early on, they had no plans to launch new tech deployments, then they said, "Nope, we're going to start." and now that stalling, and I think it's exactly right, what you said, is there's an IT skills shortage. So people want to continue to do IT deployments 'cause they have to support work from home and a hybrid back return to the office, but they just don't have the skills to do so, and I think that's really probably the most important takeaway from this chart, is that stalling and to really ask why it's stalling. >> Yeah, so we're going to get into that for sure, and I think that's a really key point, is that accelerating IT deployments, it looks like it's hit a wall in the survey, but before we get deep into the skills, let's take a look at this next chart, and we're asking people here how our return to the new normal, if you will, and back to offices is going to change spending with on-prem architectures and applications. And so the first two bars, they're Cloud-friendly, if you add them up, it's 63% of the respondents, say that either they'll stay in the Cloud for the most part, or they're going to lower their on-prem spend when they go back to the office. The next three bars are on-prem friendly. If you add those up it's 29% of the respondents say their on-prem spend is going to bounce back to pre-COVID levels or actually increase, and of course, 12% of that number, by the way, say they've never altered their on-prem spend. So Erik, no surprise, but this bodes well for Cloud, but isn't it also a positive for on-prem? We've had this dual funding premise, meaning Cloud continues to grow, but neglected data center spend also gets a boost. What's your thoughts? >> Really, it's interesting. It's people are spending on all fronts. You and I were talking in the prep, it's like we're in battle and I've got naval, I've got air, I've got land, I've got to spend on Cloud and digital transformation, but I also have to spend for on-prem. The hybrid work is here and it needs to be supported. So this is spending is going to increase. When you look at this chart, you're going to see though, that roughly 36% of all respondents say that their spending is going to remain mostly on Cloud. So that is still the clear direction, digital transformation is still happening, COVID accelerated it greatly, you and I, as journalists and researchers already know this is where the puck is going, but spend has always lagged a little bit behind 'cause it just takes some time to get there. Inversely, 27% said that their on-prem spending will decrease. So when you look at those two, I still think that the trend is the friend for Cloud spending, even though, yes, they do have to continue spending on hybrid, some of it's been neglected, there are refresh cycles coming up, so, overall it just points to more and more spending right now. It really does seem to be a very strong backdrop for IT growth. >> So I want to talk a little bit about the ETR taxonomy before we bring up the next chart. We get a lot of questions about this, and of course, when you do a massive survey like you're doing, you have to have consistency for time series, so you have to really think through what the buckets look like, if you will. So this next chart takes a look at the ETR taxonomy and it breaks it down into simple-to-understand terms. So the green is the portion of spending on a vendor's tech within a category that is accelerating, and the red is the portion that is decelerating. So Erik, what are the key messages in this data? >> Well, first of all, Dave, thank you so much for pointing that out. We used to do, just what we call a Net score. It's a proprietary formula that we use to determine the overall velocity of spending. Some people found it confusing. Our data scientists decided to break this sector, break down into what you said, which is really more of a mode analysis. In that sector, how many of the vendors are increasing versus decreasing? So again, I just appreciate you bringing that up and allowing us to explain the reasoning behind our analysis there. But what we're seeing here goes back to something you and I did last year when we did our predictions, and that was that IT services and consulting was going to have a true rebound in 2021, and that's what this is showing right here. So in this chart, you're going to see that consulting and services are really continuing their recovery, 2020 had a lot of the clients and they have the biggest sector year-over-year acceleration sector wise. The other thing to point out on this, which we'll get to again later, is that the inverse analysis is true for video conferencing. We will get to that, so I'm going to leave a little bit of ammunition behind for that one, but what we're seeing here is IT consulting services being the real favorable and video conferencing having a little bit more trouble. >> Great, okay, and then let's take a look at that services piece, and this next chart really is a drill down into that space and emphasizes, Erik, what you were just talking about. And we saw this in IBM's earnings, where still more than 60% of IBM's business comes from services and the company beat earnings, in part, due to services outperforming expectations, I think it had a somewhat easier compare and some of this pent-up demand that we've been talking about bodes well for IBM and other services companies, it's not just IBM, right, Erik? >> No, it's not, but again, I'm going to point out that you and I did point out IBM in our predictions when we did in late December, so, it is nice to see. One of the reasons we don't have a more favorable rating on IBM at the moment is because they are in the process of spinning out this large unit, and so there's a little bit of a corporate action there that keeps us off on the sideline. But I would also want to point out here, Tata, Infosys and Cognizant 'cause they're seeing year-over-year acceleration in both IT consulting and outsourced IT services. So we break those down separately and those are the three names that are seeing acceleration in both of those. So again, at the Tata, Infosys and Cognizant are all looking pretty well positioned as well. >> So we've been talking a little bit about this skills shortage, and this is what's, I think, so hard for forecasters, is that in the one hand, There's a lot of pent up demand, Scott Gottlieb said it's like Woodstock coming out of the COVID, but on the other hand, if you have a talent gap, you've got to rely on external services. So there's a learning curve, there's a ramp up, it's an external company, and so it takes time to put those together. So this data that we're going to show you next, is really important in my view and ties what we were saying at the top. It asks respondents to comment on their staffing plans. The light blue is "We're increasing staff", the gray is "No change" and the magenta or whatever, whatever color that is that sort of purplish color, anyway, that color is decreasing, and the picture is very positive across the board. Full-time staff, offshoring, contract employees, outsourced professional services, all up trending upwards, and this Erik is more evidence of the services bounce back. >> Yeah, it's certainly, yes, David, and what happened is when we caught this trend, we decided to go one level deeper and say, all right, we're seeing this, but we need to know why, and that's what we always try to do here. Data will tell you what's happening, it doesn't always tell you why, and that's one of the things that ETR really tries to dig in with through the insights, interviews panels, and also going direct with these more custom survey questions. So in this instance, I think the real takeaway is that 30% of the respondents said that their outsourced and managed services are going to increase over the next three months. That's really powerful, that's a large portion of organizations in a very short time period. So we're capturing that this acceleration is happening right now and it will be happening in real time, and I don't see it slowing down. You and I are speaking about we have to increase Cloud spend, we have to increase hybrid spend, there are refresh cycles coming up, and there's just a real skills shortage. So this is a long-term setup that bodes very well for IT services and consulting. >> You know, Erik, when I came out of college, somebody told me, "Read, read, read, read as much as you can." And then they said, "Read the Wall Street Journal every day." and so I did it, and I would read the tech magazines and back then it was all paper, and what happens is you begin to connect the dots. And so the reason I bring that up is because I've now taken a bath in the ETR data for the better part of two years and I'm beginning to be able to connect the dots. The data is not always predictive, but many, many times it is. And so this next data gets into the fun stuff where we name names. A lot of times people don't like it because they're either marketing people at organizations, say, "Well, data's wrong." because that's the first thing they do, is attack the data. But you and I know, we've made some really great calls, work from home, for sure, you're talking about the services bounce back. We certainly saw the rise of CrowdStrike, Okta, Zscaler, well before people were talking about that, same thing with video conferencing. And so, anyway, this is the fun stuff and it looks at positive versus negative sentiment on companies. So first, how does ETR derive this data and how should we interpret it, and what are some of your takeaways? >> Sure, first of all, how we derive the data, are systematic survey responses that we do on a quarterly basis, and we standardize those responses to allow for time series analysis so we can do trend analysis as well. We do find that our data, because it's talking about forward-looking spending intentions, is really more predictive because we're talking about things that might be happening six months, three months in the future, not things that a lot of other competitors and research peers are looking at things that already happened, they're looking in the past, ETR really likes to look into the future and our surveys are set up to do so. So thank you for that question, It's a enjoyable lead in, but to get to the fun stuff, like you said, what we do here is we put ratings on the datasets. I do want to put the caveat out there that our spending intentions really only captures top-line revenue. It is not indicative of profit margin or any other line items, so this is only to be viewed as what we are rating the data set itself, not the company, that's not what we're in the game of doing. So I think that's very important for the marketing and the vendors out there themselves when they take a look at this. We're just talking about what we can control, which is our data. We're going to talk about a few of the names here on this highlighted vendors list. One, we're going to go back to that you and I spoke about, I guess, about six months ago, or maybe even earlier, which was the observability space. You and I were noticing that it was getting very crowded, a lot of new entrants, there was a lot of acquisition from more of the legacy or standard players in the space, and that is continuing. So I think in a minute, we're going to move into that observability space, but what we're seeing there is that it's becoming incredibly crowded and we're possibly seeing signs of them cannibalizing each other. We're also going to move on a little bit into video conferencing, where we're capturing some spend deceleration, and then ultimately, we're going to get into a little bit of a storage refresh cycle and talk about that. But yeah, these are the highlighted vendors for April, we usually do this once a quarter and they do change based on the data, but they're not usually whipsawed around, the data doesn't move that quickly. >> Yeah, so you can see some of the big names in the left-hand side, some of the SAS companies that have momentum. Obviously, ServiceNow has been doing very, very well. We've talked a lot about Snowflake, Okta, CrowdStrike, Zscaler, all very positive, as well as several others. I guess I'd add some things. I mean, I think if thinking about the next decade, it's Cloud, which is not going to be like the same Cloud as the last decade, a lot of machine learning and deep learning and AI and the Cloud is extending to the edge and the data center. Data, obviously, very important, data is decentralized and distributed, so data architectures are changing. A lot of opportunities to connect across Clouds and actually create abstraction layers, and then something that we've been covering a lot is processor performance is actually accelerating relative to Moore's law. It's probably instead of doubling every two years, it's quadrupling every two years, and so that is a huge factor, especially as it relates to powering AI and AI inferencing at the edge. This is a whole new territory, custom Silicon is really becoming in vogue and so something that we're watching very, very closely. >> Yeah, I completely, agree on that and I do think that the next version of Cloud will be very different. Another thing to point out on that too, is you can't do anything that you're talking about without collecting the data and organizations are extremely serious about that now. It seems it doesn't matter what industry they're in, every company is a data company, and that also bodes well for the storage goal. We do believe that there is going to just be a huge increase in the need for storage, and yes, hopefully that'll become portable across multi-Cloud and hybrid as well. >> Now, as Erik said, the ETR data, it's really focused on that top-line spend. So if you look on the right side of that chart, you saw NetApp was kind of negative, was very negative, right? But it is a company that's in transformation now, they've lowered expectations and they've recently beat expectations, that's why the stock has been doing better, but at the macro, from a spending standpoint, it's still stout challenged. So you have big footprint companies like NetApp and Oracle is another one. Oracle's stock is at an all time high, but the spending relative to sort of previous cycles are relative to, like for instance, Snowflake, much, much smaller, not as high growth, but they're managing expectations, they're managing their transition, they're managing profitability. Zoom is another one, Zoom looking negative, but Zoom's got to use its market cap now to transform and increase its TAM. And then Splunk is another one we're going to talk about. Splunk is in transition, it acquired SignalFX, It just brought on this week, Teresa Carlson, who was the head of AWS Public Sector. She's the president and head of sales, so they've got a go-to-market challenge and they brought in Teresa Carlson to really solve that, but Splunk has been trending downward, we called that several quarters ago, Erik, and so I want to bring up the data on Splunk, and this is Splunk, Erik, in analytics, and it's not trending in the right direction. The green is accelerating spend, the red is in the bars is decelerating spend, the top blue line is spending velocity or Net score, and the yellow line is market share or pervasiveness in the dataset. Your thoughts. >> Yeah, first I want to go back. There's a great point, Dave, about our data versus a disconnect from an equity analysis perspective. I used to be an equity analyst, that is not what we do here. And the main word you said is expectations, right? Stocks will trade on how they do compare to the expectations that are set, whether that's buy-side expectations, sell-side expectations or management's guidance themselves. We have no business in tracking any of that, what we are talking about is the top-line acceleration or deceleration. So, that was a great point to make, and I do think it's an important one for all of our listeners out there. Now, to move to Splunk, yes, I've been capturing a lot of negative commentary on Splunk even before the data turns. So this has been a about a year-long, our analysis and review on this name and I'm dating myself here, but I know you and I are both rock and roll fans, so I'm going to point out a Led Zeppelin song and movie, and say that the song remains the same for Splunk. We are just seeing recent spending attentions are taking yet another step down, both from prior survey levels, from year ago levels. This, we're looking at in the analytics sector and spending intentions are decelerating across every single group, and we went to one of our other slide analysis on the ETR+ platform, and you do by customer sub-sample, in analytics, it's dropping in every single vertical. It doesn't matter which one. it's really not looking good, unfortunately, and you had mentioned this is an analytics and I do believe the next slide is an information security. >> Yeah, let's bring that up. >> And unfortunately it's not doing much better. So this is specifically Fortune 500 accounts and information security. There's deep pockets in the Fortune 500, but from what we're hearing in all the insights and interviews and panels that I personally moderate for ETR, people are upset, that they didn't like the strong tactics that Splunk has used on them in the past, they didn't like the ingestion model pricing, the inflexibility, and when alternatives came along, people are willing to look at the alternatives, and that's what we're seeing in both analytics and big data and also for their SIM and security. >> Yeah, so I think again, I pointed Teresa Carlson. She's got a big job, but she's very capable. She's going to meet with a lot of customers, she's a go-to-market pro, she's going to to have to listen hard, and I think you're going to see some changes there. Okay, so sorry, there's more bad news on Splunk. So (indistinct) bring this up is Net score for Splunk and Elastic accounts. This is for analytics, so there's 106 Elastic accounts in the dataset that also have Splunk and it's trending downward for Splunk, that's why it's green for Elastic. And Erik, the important call out from ETR here is how Splunk's performance in Elastic accounts compares with its performance overall. The ELK stack, which obviously Elastic is a big part of that, is causing pain for Splunk, as is Datadog, and you mentioned the pricing issue, well, is it pricing in your assessment or is it more fundamental? >> It's multi-level based on the commentary we get from our ITDMs teams that take the survey. So yes, you did a great job with this analysis. What we're looking at is the spending within shared accounts. So if I have Splunk already, how am I spending? I'm sorry if I have Elastic already, how am I spending on Splunk? And what you're seeing here is it's down to about a 12% Net score, whereas Splunk overall, has a 32% Net score among all of its customers. So what you're seeing there is there is definitely a drain that's happening where Elastic is draining spend from Splunk and usage from them. The reason we used Elastic here is because all observabilities, the whole sector seems to be decelerating. Splunk is decelerating the most, but Elastic is the only one that's actually showing resiliency, so that's why we decided to choose these two, but you pointed out, yes, it's also Datadog. Datadog is Cloud native. They're more dev ops-oriented. They tend to be viewed as having technological lead as compared to Splunk. So a really good point. Dynatrace also is expanding their abilities and Splunk has been making a lot of acquisitions to push their Cloud services, they are also changing their pricing model, right? They're trying to make things a little bit more flexible, moving off ingestion and moving towards consumption. So they are trying, and the new hires, I'm not going to bet against them because the one thing that Splunk has going for them is their market share in our survey, they're still very well entrenched. So they do have a lot of accounts, they have their foothold. So if they can find a way to make these changes, then they will be able to change themselves, but the one thing I got to say across the whole sector is competition is increasing, and it does appear based on commentary and data that they're starting to cannibalize themselves. It really seems pretty hard to get away from that, and you know there are startups in the observability space too that are going to be even more disruptive. >> I think I want to key on the pricing for a moment, and I've been pretty vocal about this. I think the old SAS pricing model where you essentially lock in for a year or two years or three years, pay up front, or maybe pay quarterly if you're lucky, that's a one-way street and I think it's a flawed model. I like what Snowflake's doing, I like what Datadog's doing, look at what Stripe is doing, look at what Twilio is doing, you mentioned it, it's consumption-based pricing, and if you've got a great product, put it out there and damn, the torpedoes, and I think that is a game changer. I look at, for instance, HPE with GreenLake, I look at Dell with Apex, they're trying to mimic that model and apply it to infrastructure, it's much harder with infrastructure 'cause you've got to deploy physical infrastructure, but that is a model that I think is going to change, and I think all of the traditional SAS pricing is going to come under disruption over the next better part of the decades, but anyway, let's move on. We've been covering the APM space pretty extensively, application performance management, and this chart lines up some of the big players here. Comparing Net score or spending momentum from the April 20th survey, the gray is, sorry, the gray is the April 20th survey, the blue is Jan 21 and the yellow is April 21, and not only are Elastic and Datadog doing well relative to Splunk, Erik, but everything is down from last year. So this space, as you point out, is undergoing a transformation. >> Yeah, the pressures are real and it's sort of that perfect storm where it's not only the data that's telling us that, but also the direct feedback we get from the community. Pretty much all the interviews I do, I've done a few panels specifically on this topic, for anyone who wants to dive a little bit deeper. We've had some experts talk about this space and there really is no denying that there is a deceleration in spend and it's happening because that spend is getting spread out among different vendors. People are using a Datadog for certain aspects, they are using Elastic where they can 'cause it's cheaper. They're using Splunk because they have to, but because it's so expensive, they're cutting some of the things that they're putting into Splunk, which is dangerous, particularly on the security side. If I have to decide what to put in and whatnot, that's not really the right way to have security hygiene. So this space is just getting crowded, there's disruptive vendors coming from the emerging space as well, and what you're seeing here is the only bit of positivity is Elastic on a survey-over-survey basis with a slight, slight uptick. Everywhere else, year-over-year and survey-over-survey, it's showing declines, it's just hard to ignore. >> And then you've got Dynatrace who, based on the interviews you do in the (indistinct), one-on-one, or one-on-five, the private interviews that I've been invited to, Dynatrace gets very high scores for their roadmap. You've got New Relic, which has been struggling financially, but they've got a really good product and a purpose-built database just for this APM space, and then of course, you've got Cisco with AppD, which is a strong business for them, and then as you mentioned, you've got startups coming in, you got ChaosSearch, which Ed Walsh is now running, leave the data in place in AWS and really interesting model, Honeycomb is getting really disruptive, Jeremy Burton's company, Observed. So this space is it's becoming jumped ball. >> Yeah, there's a great line that came out of one of them, and that was that the lines are blurring. It used to be that you knew exactly that AppDynamics, what they were doing, it was APM only, or it was logging and monitoring only, and a lot of what I'm hearing from the ITDM experts is that the lines are blurring amongst all of these names. They all have functionality that kind of crosses over each other. And the other interesting thing is it used to be application versus infrastructure monitoring, but as you know, infrastructure is becoming code more and more and more, and as infrastructure becomes code, there's really no difference between application and infrastructure monitoring. So we're seeing a convergence and a blurring of the lines in this space, which really doesn't bode well, and a great point about New Relic, their tech gets good remarks. I just don't know if their enterprise level service and sales is up to snuff right now. As one of my experts said, a CTO of a very large public online hospitality company essentially said that he would be shocked that within 18 months if all of these players are still standalone, that there needs to be some M and A or convergence in this space. >> Okay, now we're going to call out some of the data that really has jumped out to ETR in the latest survey, and some of the names that are getting the most queries from ETR clients, many of which are investor clients. So let's start by having a look at one of the most important and prominent work from home names, Zoom. Let's look at this. Erik is the ride over for Zoom? >> Ah, I've been saying it for a little bit of a time now actually. I do believe it is, and we'll get into it, but again, pointing out, great, Dave, the reason we're presenting today Splunk, Elastic and Zoom, they are the most viewed on the ETR+ platform. Trailing behind that only slightly is F5, I decided not to bring F5 to the table today 'cause we don't have a rating on the data set. So then I went one deep, one below that and it's pure. So the reason we're presenting these to you today is that these are the ones that our clients and our community are most interested in, which is hopefully going to gain interest to your viewers as well. So to get to Zoom, yeah, I call Zoom the pandemic bull market baby. This was really just one that had a meteoric ride. You look back, January in 2020, the stock was at $60 and 10 months later, it was like 580, that's in 10 months. That's cooled down a little bit into the mid-300s, and I believe that cooling down should continue, and the reason why is because we are seeing huge deceleration in our spending intentions. They're hitting all-time lows, it's really just a very ugly dataset. More importantly than the spending intentions, for the first time, we're seeing customer growth in our survey flatten. In the past, we knew that the deceleration of spend was happening, but meanwhile, their new customer growth was accelerating, so it was kind of hard to really make any call based on that. This is the first time we're seeing flattening customer growth trajectory, and that in tandem with just dominance from Microsoft in every sector they're involved in, I don't care if it's IP telephony, productivity apps or the core video conferencing, Microsoft is just dominating. So there's really just no way to ignore this anymore. The data and the commentary state that Zoom is facing some headwinds. >> Well, plus you've pointed out to me that a lot of your private conversations with buyers says that, "Hey, we're, we're using the freebie version of Zoom, and we're not paying them." And that combined with Teams, I mean, it's... I think, look, Zoom, they've got to figure out how to use their elevated market cap to transform and expand their TAM, but let's move on. Here's the data on Pure Storage and we've highlighted a number of times this company is showing elevated spending intentions. Pure announced it's earnings in May, IBM just announced storage, it was way down actually. So still, Pure, more positive, but I'll on that comment in a moment, but what does this data tell you, Erik? >> Yeah, right now we started seeing this data last survey in January, and that was the first time we really went positive on the data set itself, and it's just really continuing. So we're seeing the strongest year-over-year acceleration in the entire survey, which is a really good spot to be. Pure is also a leading position among its sector peers, and the other thing that was pretty interesting from the data set is among all storage players, Pure has the highest positive public Cloud correlation. So what we can do is we can see which respondents are accelerating their public Cloud spend and then cross-reference that with their storage spend and Pure is best positioned. So as you and I both know, digital transformation Cloud spending is increasing, you need to be aligned with that. And among all storage sector peers, Pure is best positioned in all of those, in spending intentions and adoptions and also public Cloud correlation. So yet again, to start another really strong dataset, and I have an anecdote about why this might be happening, because when I saw the data, I started asking in my interviews, what's going on here? And there was one particular person, he was a director of Cloud operations for a very large public tech company. Now, they have hybrid, but their data center is in colo, So they don't own and build their own physical building. He pointed out that during COVID, his company wanted to increase storage, but he couldn't get into his colo center due to COVID restrictions. They weren't allowed. You had 250,000 square feet, right, but you're only allowed to have six people in there. So it's pretty hard to get to your rack and get work done. He said he would buy storage, but then the colo would say, "Hey, you got to get it out of here. It's not even allowed to sit here. We don't want it in our facility." So he has all this pent up demand. In tandem with pent up demand, we have a refresh cycle. The SSD depreciation cycle is ending. SSDs are moving on and we're starting to see a new technology in that space, NVMe sorry, technology increasing in that space. So we have pent up demand and we have new technology and that's really leading to a refresh cycle, and this particular ITDM that I spoke to and many of his peers think this has a long tailwind that storage could be a good sector for some time to come. >> That's really interesting, thank you for that extra metadata. And I want to do a little deeper dive on storage. So here's a look at storage in the industry in context and some of the competitive. I mean, it's been a tough market for the reasons that we've highlighted, Cloud has been eating away that flash headroom. It used to be you'd buy storage to get more spindles and more performance and we're sort of forced to buy more, flash, gave more headroom, but it's interesting what you're saying about the depreciation cycle. So that's good news. So ETR combines, just for people's benefit here, combines primary and secondary storage into a single category. So you have companies like Pure and NetApp, which are really pure play primary storage companies, largely in the sector, along with Veeam, Cohesity and Rubrik, which are kind of secondary data or data protection. So my quick thoughts here that Pure is elevated and remains what I call the one-eyed man in the land of the blind, but that's positive tailwinds there, so that's good news. Rubrik is very elevated but down, it's big competitor, Cohesity is way off its highs, and I have to say to me, Veeam is like the Steady Eddy consistent player here. They just really continue to do well in the data protection business, and the highs are steady, the lows are steady. Dell is also notable, they've been struggling in storage. Their ISG business, which comprises servers and storage, it's been softer in COVID, and during even this new product rollout, so it's notable with this new mid range they have in particular, the uptick in Dell, this survey, because Dell is so large, a small uptick can be very good for Dell. HPE has a big announcement next month in storage, so that might improve based on a product cycle. Of course, the Nimble brand continues to do well, IBM, as I said, just announced a very soft quarter, down double digits again, and they're in a product cycle shift. And NetApp, it looks bad in the ETR data from a spending momentum standpoint, but their management team is transforming the company into a Cloud play, which Erik is why it was interesting that Pure has the greatest momentum in Cloud accounts, so that is sort of striking to me. I would have thought it would be NetApp, so that's something that we want to pay attention to, but I do like a lot of what NetApp is doing, and other than Pure, they're the only big kind of pure play in primary storage. So long-winded, intro there, Erik, but anything you'd add? >> No, actually I appreciate it as long-winded. I'm going to be honest with you, storage is not my best sector as far as a researcher and analyst goes, but I actually think that a lot of what you said is spot on. We do capture a lot of large organizations spend, we don't capture much mid and small, so I think when you're talking about these large, large players like NetApp not looking so good, all I would state is that we are capturing really big organization spending attention, so these are names that should be doing better to be quite honest, in those accounts, and at least according to our data, we're not seeing it in. It's longterm depression, as you can see, NetApp now has a negative spending velocity in this analysis. So, I can go dig around a little bit more, but right now the names that I'm hearing are Pure, Cohesity. I'm hearing a little bit about Hitachi trying to reinvent themselves in the space, but I'll take a wait-and-see approach on that one, but pure Cohesity are the ones I'm hearing a lot from our community. >> So storage is transforming to Cloud as a service. You've seen things like Apex in GreenLake from Dell and HPE and container storage. A little, so not really a lot of people paying attention to it, but Pure bought a company called Portworx which really specializes in container storage, and there's many startups there, they're trying to really change the way. David Flynn, has a startup in that space, he's the guy who started Fusion-io. So a lot of transformations happening here. Okay, I know it's been a long segment, we have to summarize, and let me go through a summary and then I'll give you the last word, Erik. So tech spending appears to be tracking US GDP at 6 to 7%. This talent shortage could be a blocker to accelerating IT deployments, so that's kind of good news actually for services companies. Digital transformation, it remains a priority, and that bodes, well, not only for services, but automation. UiPath went public this week, we profiled that extensively, that went public last Wednesday. Organizations that sit at the top face some tough decisions on how to allocate resources. They're running the business, growing the business, transforming the business, and we're seeing a bifurcation of spending and some residual effects on vendors, and that remains a theme that we're watching. Erik, your final thoughts. >> Yeah, I'm going to go back quickly to just the overall macro spending, 'cause there's one thing I think is interesting to point out and we're seeing a real acceleration among mid and small. So it seems like early on in the COVID recovery or COVID spending, it was the deep pockets that moved first, right? Fortune 500 knew they had to support remote work, they started spending first. Around that in the Fortune 500, we're only seeing about 5% spend, but when you get into mid and small organizations, that's creeping up to eight, nine. So I just think it's important to point out that they're playing catch up right now. I also would point out that this is heavily skewed to North America spending. We're seeing laggards in EMEA, they just don't seem to be spending as much. They're in a very different place in their recovery, and I do think that it's important to point that out. Lastly, I also want to mention, I know you do such a great job on following a lot of the disruptive vendors that you just pointed out, with Pure doing container storage, we also have another bi-annual survey that we do called Emerging Technology, and that's for the private names. That's going to be launching in May, for everyone out there who's interested in not only the disruptive vendors, but also private equity players. Keep an eye out for that. We do that twice a year and that's growing in its respondents as well. And then lastly, one comment, because you mentioned the UiPath IPO, it was really hard for us to sit on the sidelines and not put some sort of rating on their dataset, but ultimately, the data was muted, unfortunately, and when you're seeing this kind of hype into an IPO like we saw with Snowflake, the data was resoundingly strong. We had no choice, but to listen to what the data said for Snowflake, despite the hype. We didn't see that for UiPath and we wanted to, and I'm not making a large call there, but I do think it's interesting to juxtapose the two, that when snowflake was heading to its IPO, the data was resoundingly positive, and for UiPath, we just didn't see that. >> Thank you for that, and Erik, thanks for coming on today. It's really a pleasure to have you, and so really appreciate the collaboration and look forward to doing more of these. >> Yeah, we enjoy the partnership greatly, Dave. We're very happy to have you on the ETR family and looking forward to doing a lot, lot more with you in the future. >> Ditto. Okay, that's it for today. Remember, these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen. All you have to do is search "Breaking Analysis" podcast, and please subscribe to the series. Check out ETR website it's etr.plus. We also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can email me, david.vellante@siliconangle.com, you can DM me on Twitter @dvellante or comment on our LinkedIn posts. I could see you in Clubhouse. This is Dave Vellante for Erik Porter Bradley for the CUBE Insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, stay safe, be well and we'll see you next time. (bright music)

>> From theCube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCube and ETR, this is breaking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> As we reported in our last episode tech spending overall continues to be significantly muted relative to 2019. Now, our forecast continues to project a 4 to 5% decline in 2020 spending, and a tepid 2% increase in 2021. This is based on the latest data from ETR surveys of CIOs and other it buyers. Nonetheless, there continues to be some sectors and vendor bright spots in what is generally an overall challenging market. Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. My name is Dave Vellante, and in this breaking analysis, we welcome back Erik Bradley from ETR to provide added color from my solo flight from last time. Erik always a pleasure to see you, thanks so much for coming back in theCube. >> I always enjoy it. Happy Friday Dave, We're almost through. >> Happy Friday. They just blend together. Guys, if you would bring up the first slide, I just want to summarize the situation. This is from ETR's latest findings, I just extracted some. And I want to go down very quickly, Erik, and then get your take. As I said, technology buyers expect the downturn for 2020, but this quarter, coming into fourth quarter, minus 3.2% was ETR's forecast, that's year to year spending decline and a 2% uptick in 2021. Now, Erik this is slightly, what I call it slightly less bad, relative to last quarter. So sequentially it's less bad. >> Yeah, there's a couple of things to break down there. So first to begin with, beginning of the year, when we launched not only our spending attention surveys, we did a simultaneous COVID impact survey, and that's where we caught originally a 5% decline was expected. So although negative 3.2 was probably the worst quarter over quarter lapse we've seen, as a matter of fact it is the lowest drop we've had theory, going into 2021, the IT people that we've actually surveyed are actually expecting a 2% increase. So there is a reason for optimism, but if we're looking at the current data set, there is no doubt the picture remains a little bit bleak. We can go into different sectors and vendors where they are impacted, but I think maybe if you're willing, I think it might be worth just sort of breaking down the demographics of the survey a little bit and how we got to that 3.2% survey over survey decline. >> Yeah, and we have a chart on that. But before we get that, I just wanted to lay out some of the other key points of your analysis. The other one, which is we talked about this in the last episode, we call it a slow thawing. Hiring an IT project freezes are thawing, with fewer companies expecting layoffs. So that gives us some bright spots, but there are definitely a widening bifurcation between vendors gaining share and those who are donating share. And then, you know, again, relative to last quarter survey we're seeing government and education and fortune 100, you guys are showing the deepest cuts from the last survey. Where's IT Telco, retail and retail consumer are showing a little bit more stability. And then of course you talked about the work from home which we've covered doubling from pre pandemic. Pretty interesting findings from your COVID survey. >> Yeah, it's a fantastic, and this is the fourth iteration of this survey that we've done now. So we've been able to track it very quickly, launched it in the field when we realized the true impact of what was happening in early March. This is our fourth version, and we've been able to track it overall. Yes, without a doubt government, education are being the biggest impact, the biggest declines without a doubt. Now, clearly the caveat to that is if there's any sort of government policy maybe those could actually help a little bit, but for right now, those are getting hit the most. Retail consumer is fairing much, much better, and the IT companies, as generally, we're seeing in the market as well, they can, you know, are still spending money and still moving. But the reason for optimism actually comes from multiple metrics. And I will say, we have caught a bottom on all of the negative metrics at this point. Now, who knows what will happen the next time we do it, right? The world is always fluid. But based on this, this is our fourth iteration of this survey, whether it be IT projects being frozen, whether it be layoffs, whether it be just overall expected budget increase, everything looks like it is already bottomed and there is some optimism going into 2021. Of course, the January survey that we launched will be able to corroborate that hopefully, and we'll have much more granularity into those findings at that time. >> Great. Okay, now let's get into the demographics that you referenced for. This next slide shows those. The record number of respondents Erik, congratulations on that. And so take us through the makeup of the survey respondents guys, if you bring up this next slide. >> Yeah. So for the October 20, what we're really doing here is we're asking the it decision makers to update the survey responses they gave us in July. We're basically saying, okay, you thought you were going to spend this in the back half, what did you actually do? And in this particular survey we had 1,438 qualified IT decision makers get involved. That's 60% of the fortune 100 is represented, almost a quarter of the global 1000, and we had about 35% of the fortune 500. The industry breakdown is all across the board, whether it's financials/insurance, IT/Telco, we have industrials/manufacturing, we have energy/utilities, we have government. So it's really a great cross section. Now, geographically, that tends to be about 80% North America. We are heavily concentrated in that area, but we also have a 12% EMEA, 5% APAC and remainder is Latin AmErika. If there were any visibility concerns at all would probably be in China. It's just not that easy to get qualified IT decision makers from China to respond to us. But that's an area we are working on going forward, but overall a huge survey response, certainly meaningful end, and we're very happy with the data that we collected this time. >> Okay, thank you for that. Now, I want to go into the next graphic here, and I want to look at how net score has changed over time. And I want to remind people that, so this slide basically goes back to 2016, and shows some ebbs and flows and then some real strength coming in, 'cause you see 17 and 18, and you may forget going into Q4'19 and into 2020, the ETR data was telling us, hey, things are going to slow down a little bit. It's hard to remember that. And so, and the thinking back then was okay, last couple of years, people have spent a lot on digital transformation, and would a lot of experimentation, they were hanging on to their legacy stuff, and with all that technical debt and they were experimenting with a lot of the new technologies. And what we saw coming into Q4 2019 was people beginning to unplug some of that and making bets basically, unplugging some of the legacy stuff. Oh, and by the way, maybe saying hey, the new stuff that we tried didn't work, we're going to do less experimentation. So we saw a somewhat depressed next score, and you can see that in here coming into 2020, and then of course COVID hit and you can see the bottom fell out. But wow what a drop, I mean, that says it all, a lot different than what we're seeing in the stock market. >> Yeah, first of all, just a great recap on what we caught last year. Really well done. So at that time there was concurrent spending. There was a lot of proof of concepts being done. People weren't exactly sure how to transition off, how fast they were going to get into the cloud, how fast they could make that digital transformation. And they were kicking the tires on everything, and there was a ton of spend. It was the golden era of IT spending at the time. But we did catch that some of that was coming down. So what we will see now is obviously that spending was going to cool off either way, but now with the global pandemic impact hitting what we've caught, of course, is the biggest survey over survey decline. 3.2% was matched at one other point in our survey's history, but that was at very elevated spendings, so that drop was not as meaningful. When we're seeing from a more baseline that drop right now is extremely seasonal, and extremely meaningful, my apologies. Now, I do want to make a quick caveat that usually the October survey catches some seasonality, because a lot of people have expected spend in the back half that doesn't always materialize. But make no mistake, this is way beyond our normal seasonality. This trough is a real metric. >> Yeah, and when I talk to buyers and I talk to even salespeople, for if you want the truth, you'll talk to salespeople, if you can get the truth out of them, which you usually can. Sales and engineering, that's really if we want to know what's happening in companies, but they will tell you that their visibility, same with the buyers, they're saying, look, I think I'm going to spend and I think I'm going to get approval on it, but the normal buying signals, you kind of have to take with a grain of salt because it's, the buyers don't know the sellers don't really know. I mean, they think they've got reasonable visibility but things change so fast as we know. So you have to be really, really careful. All right, let's drill in to some of the sectors, and that's really the next two slides, guys, if you bring up the first of the next two. So this shows the change from July to October. So the last survey to this survey, 2020, and the green bars of July, yellow bars are October. And you can see right away, jumps out at you, container orchestration and ML and AI, and we've got some other data on this jump right off the charts. They're still elevated levels, so that's a real positive. You can see AI actually, maybe waning a bit, and I think that's probably, Erik, is a lot of it is just, you don't even see it, it's just embedded. But take us through this first chart and then we'll dig into some of these sectors. What are you seeing? >> Yeah, certainly. So from a sector breakdown point of view, that lesson, none of them were spared, let's be honest, right? There's a slow down in spending. But containers and containerization were by far the most stable. So clearly this is a priority. People are recognizing that they need to go that route. Nobody wants to be tied to any particular cloud provider. So container and containers are moving the best, they are looking about as stable as they can be. When we drill down a little bit further in there, we're seeing Kubernetes of course, Microsoft and AWS really supporting in that sector. Now, when you talk about the ones that had the biggest survey over survey declines, we are looking at ML/AI, but like you said, still elevated spend. So even though there was a big survey over survey decline, the overall spending intentions are healthy. Nobody is getting away from it. Also to corroborate that in the COVID impact study, we asked people, given the current situation where their priorities are, and unfortunately in that area ML/AI and the RPA we're actually not positioned as well. So it actually corroborates the COVID impact survey, corroborates what we're seeing here in our larger intentions. Now, when you look at ML/AI, Microsoft is still very well suited in that area. Virtualization was another big area that dropped, which was interesting because I think the immediate COVID impact and the work from home, we saw a little spike there. I think we definitely saw companies like Citrix, right? F5 and Nutanix and AWS workspaces. They all had a really good impact, positive, when we first hit, but virtualization is dropping quite a bit there. And again, no surprise, Microsoft is well positioned as well. And then lastly, enterprise content management also had a big, big drop-off, and there you're looking at Adobe Box, Open Text, those are the type of companies that seem to be having the biggest survey over survey decline and ECM. >> Yeah. And I just want to make a comment on this first of the two slides. Is you see security, it's okay, there's a little bit of decline, but there's the story of the haves and the have nots. If you're an end point security, you're in cloud security, you're in identity access management, there's some real tailwinds for you right now. You're seeing that with Octa, CrowdStrike and Zscaler, SailPoint, you know, had a really good quarter. So that's the story of kind of the, a mixed bag. If you go to the next slide, guys, what jumps out here on the second sector breakdown, and Erik you alluded to this as RPA, very elevated, although down, somewhat still, again, very elevated and cloud computing. I mean, that's all everybody wants to talk about. This is a large market that continues to grow very, very fast. >> Yeah. It's a A2 cloud, right? I mean, even the cloud, we're kind of shocked and we saw that too. But, you know, again, it's still a healthy survey at 4Cloud. Spending is still there, but what we are seeing is a pretty big survey over-serving decline that is probably, if you had to translate that, it's going to show slower growth. Still double digit growth, but slower than we expected. And interestingly in the cloud, again, Microsoft is very steady, GCP steady. We saw AWS soften a little bit, and that's something that I think we need to keep an eye on there, we are seeing some softening trends. IBM and Oracle, unfortunately, no matter how hard they push, it doesn't really seem to be making a dent, at least with our it decision makers that respond to the survey. But one thing that was interesting was VMware on AWS actually looked much, much better than VMware alone. So on the cloud side, those are pretty interesting takeaways. >> Yeah, we talked about that a couple of episodes back as the, well, couple of things to pick up on your comments. You mentioned IBM and Oracle, they're just so large, they're growing businesses are not growing fast enough and they're not large enough to offset the decline and their declining businesses. Yet they're huge, they have, they throw off a lot of cash and so maybe their stock's not going through the roof, but they're pretty stable companies from that regard. I wonder, maybe AWS is starting to hit some of those, the law of large numbers. I mean, it's still growing very, very rapidly for a 45 plus billion dollar organization, still growing well into the double digits, so it just gets harder. And then, but the other thing I wanted to pick up on is you mentioned VMware cloud on AWS, we're seeing those hybrid solutions really start to pick up the multi-cloud solutions, which I was a real skeptic a couple of years ago 'cause it wasn't really real, now becoming real. And I think when you talk to, you know this well from your Ven discussions, people are looking at options for cloud. They want multiple clouds, the right horse for the right course, they want to reduce their risk, they want to ensure exit strategies and some clouds are just better at some things than others. >> Yeah, completely agree. And as you know, I do interview a lot of these IT decision makers that we survey to get a little more granularity and to dig into the details, and you and I just, great example. We did a session on Data Warehousing as a Service, we're at Snowflake. And the main reason that people love them is 'cause they have cloud portability. They can move across multiple clouds. Nobody wants to be tied to one cloud provider, they need to be agnostic. And if you look at, you know, something like Microsoft, right? Their Software Suite is fantastic. So most people are going to be aligned for them. They provide great active directory, the enterprise applications are absolutely incredible. But if you're looking to do straight ML/AI or straight data warehousing, maybe AWS Redshift, maybe Google Big Query might be a better fit for you. There's no reason to be tied into one. So what we're seeing more and more is those vendors that offer cloud portability or hybrid availability to do some on-prem for security, some cloud, they're really taking a step up in our recent surveys. Another comment you made Dave, if I can just backtrack to it is, you kind of mentioned how some of the vendors are taking more and more share. We are continuing to see this theme of a widening bifurcation, where although the overall spend that pie is shrinking, the leading vendors are taking much bigger slices from that pie. And that is continuing across the entire year. >> Yeah, definitely a time of disruption. So thank you for bringing that up. Okay, the next graphic I want to show you is actually a motion graphic, and what we're showing here is one of our favorite views. On the vertical axis you've got net score, remember, net score, essentially ETR, every quarter like clockwork asks customers are you spending more you're spending less, it's more granular than that, but essentially they subtract the red from the green and that leaves you with net score. So the higher the net score the better on the vertical axis, on the on the horizontal is axis is market share, its presence, its pervasiveness in the dataset. So you want to be up into the right, of course, like all these charts and XY's. And what we're showing here is, we go back to October, 2018. Remember this is the October survey and you can see the movement and what's happening. And a couple of points here really is one is container orchestration and container platforms, cloud, RPA, ML, they all stand out. And now we, you can see the the context of their "market share" as well, and you see that bunching, you see some of the Legacy stuff, the more mature markets like storage and PC tablets and laptops. They don't have a huge next or outsourcing, not a big net score, but they're there and they're kind of bunched up, down in the middle. But you can also see how they've slowly got depressed over time, even the elevated ones. Nobody in the recent survey is over a 60% net net score. I think you guys said that the overall net score was the lowest in history. So this is just a good way to visualize the various sectors and how spending, momentum and share is shifting. >> Yeah, that's a very good point, and you are right. The overall survey net score is actually 25.3% and it is the lowest ever we've captured. So that actually is translating into what we expect to be single digit declines in overall growth in IT budgets, which again is in line with what we've been saying. We caught early on about negative 5 1/2, that is improved now it's in this quarter to about negative 3 1/2, but if you look at the mid point here, we're very clearly in mid single digit declines, and the entire area is being impacted. Now, there are certainly some areas that are more important than others, there's no doubt about it. But yeah, outsourcing is one you mentioned, absolutely getting decimated. Nobody really has the money right now to be doing IT outsourcing, that's just not a priority. The priority is remote connectivity, remote security, how do I get identity access and governance to make sure that my employees are doing what they're supposed to be doing, even though they're not on my network anymore. All of those things are continuing. And as you saw on the COVID-19 Impact Survey, they're not going away. You had mentioned on a solo session you did, I think a week ago, where you have cited our data saying that permanent workforce is going to double from where it was in pre-pandemic levels. So that means a lot of the people that slapped a bandaid on their networking to get their employees to work from home, that bandaid solution is not going to work. They need to find one that's permanent now. So the areas of spend, although it is declining, there are very clear delineations of where that spend is going. >> Yeah, I want to just pick up on something you said about the work from home doubling, 'cause I've shared that data with some folks and had some discussions. We're talking about people that work from home, not come in a couple of times a week, this is the work from home component. And so I think the hybrid is going to increase as well, but the hardcore work from home, I think it was mid-teens, 16% or something doubling in the post pandemic was the expectation. And again, I just wanted to sort of clarify that I think your data there is quite good. How about some of the vendors? I think, now that's Snowflakes public, you guys may be doing some forecasts there. Let's start there. >> Sure, yeah. So it's fun to talk about the high level, right? And talk about the sector breakdown and where we're seeing things, but at the end of the day, people just love to talk about the individual vendors. So there's a few things that were interesting, yeah. We were able to finally come out with a real viewpoint on Snowflake now that they're out in public, and we kind of launched with a positive to neutral viewpoint. I don't think there's going to be anything here that shocks you. We're absolutely outstanding expansion rates. All the commentary we get from our CIOs are just incredible, the market share gains are about as high as you're going to see in the survey, they are extremely well positioned to continue executing, and this is not in the data set, but we also know that that management team is fantastic. I would think that they had set themselves up coming out as a public company not to completely disappoint. And everything in our data set shows absolutely no reason why they would disappoint. >> Well, and so you may be wondering folks, like, well, wait a minute, with all that great news, I mean, how could they be positive to neutral. Maybe it maybe neutral, the reason is because they have a 66, roughly $66 billion valuation. And what ETR is doing is they're taking that into consideration as well relative to, so they're looking at the street forecast, the consensus forecast and saying, okay, how does the data line up to that? And so a lot of people are asking the question, can Snowflake live up to its valuation. I don't think there's any lack of total available market here. I mean, it's very, very large, the data market, it's enormous. And as, just a plug for an event that we're doing on November 17th, it starts, we're doing a global event, and we're going to be looking at this issue very closely, interviewing customers and partners and executives and, you know, you can judge for yourself if you think the vision, they're putting out this vision of a data cloud. You see this, if this vision, you think is going to have a big enough term that they can grow into, and as Erik said, great management team, will they be able to execute? Decide for yourself, but very exciting IPO obviously that we've tracked quite closely. Elastic is another one that you guys have followed quite closely. I know you've got some data there that you want to share as well. >> Yeah, I certainly do. The APM spaces is really interesting. One last quick point on Snowflake. We don't have regression forecasts on them, because they haven't been out public long enough for us to be able to do that sort of back-testing. So without that data science behind us, we will never really go with a full positive. So to your point that saying positive to neutral is not negative or neutral stance whatsoever, it's just without that regression support behind our data, that's what we just tend to do. Because at the end of the day, we're a data science company, so.. >> Yeah. You need some some history there to really make those calls. But yeah, let's talk about Elastic. >> Yeah, sure, you got it. So recently I hosted a panel on the APM and monitoring space. It was incredibly enlightening. It's a very crowded space that our CIOs told us is right for disruption. And it ended up being a little bit of an avalanche in our data, because it wasn't just Elastic, but it was also Splunk and Dynatrace that we ended up putting ratings on. Now, Elastic as we know is an open source model, a freemium to pay type of model. And we normally try to stay away from open source models, 'cause it's kind of hard to predict how that converts to revenue, but the data was so strong that again, we came out with a positive to neutral rating on Elastic. It was based on just elevated spend levels across, there was almost no negativity, we weren't seeing any decrease or replacement indications, really solid positioning in the fortune 500 accounts, which I was a bit surprised about. And the other thing here is that Elastic tends to be really expanding in the information security. This is no longer just about monitoring and logging, they are becoming a very relevant infosec play and they are breathing down the necks of Splunk. They can do the same thing and they can do it much cheaper. The caveat being, you need to have the IT and the human skillset to run Elastic. So it really comes down to, are you sophisticated enough with the human capital management to run it? But everything we saw here just incredibly improved competitive positioning, they actually had the number one net score in all of information security in any vendor that had over 50 citations. It was just too hard to ignore, we had to come out with a positive neutral. >> That's super interesting Erik, and of course, yeah, we covered that space recently. Everybody wants a piece of Splunk and have for a number of years, but, you know, you see in Datadog come after it, then you see some startups getting into the space. Jeremy Burton launched his company, Observe, Honeycomb is in that, they kind of coined the term observability. Kakao Search is another one. Ed Wall's joined that company, and so you see a lot of folks really going after that space, why not? I mean, it's such a successful company. The pickup of SignalFX filling some holes, we talked about that on the Ven, and it's a very interesting space, and one I think has some somewhat depressed levels from a net score standpoint but as some of your Ven observers said, this market is here to stay and it becoming much more important as part of digital transformation, as part of a dashboard of digital transformation. >> Yeah. Coining that term observability really just hit it on the nail on the head. When we just talked about monitoring an application, that's not what it's about anymore, right? You need to have observability in multi hybrid cloud environments, whether it's your infrastructure or people actually writing code for your application. And so that single pane of glass, end-to-end is the holy grail of monitoring, and that's what these guys are pushing for. The New Relics, the Datadog's, the Elastics, they're getting there more quickly than Splunk and Dynatrace or AppDynamics from Cisco are. That's what the people are telling us, the ones I speak to, the CIOs that use it in the field. They're getting there more quickly and they're doing it more cheaply. Now, this is not to say Splunk is not a great company, we know it is. And also Splunk has more API integration into any ecosystem you want. They're not getting pulled or ripped out anytime soon, we're not saying that. But when we look at our data, we had no choice but to come out with a neutral to negative. They are deteriorating and their spending intentions, their customer growth is completely stalling, we're not seeing any more increased perversion in our dataset or among customers. There just wasn't really anything we could really do. Looking at the data set and that's what we do, we had no choice. There's a lot of skepticism heading into the back half of this year and next year, there's so much competition coming after them, and some of these people are just giving it away for free. It's pretty hard to compete with free. >> Yeah, free is very powerful. All right, speaking of skepticism, Rackspace had their IPO, what do you see in there? >> Oh man, I'm not really sure how to start there. But listen, I don't want to beat a company while it's down, but their net scores are actually negative. I think at the negative 20% range, if I could possibly recall that. But listen, Rackspace, when they were private, let's give them some credit, right? They decided to go out and buy a bunch of different managed service providers, they tried to align themselves with AWS, with Oracle. So they've got this whole bundle thing right now that isn't just straight cloud computing anymore. We'll see if that plays out. But clearly we saw that the IPO was not a very special IPO. In this environment the valuations in the technology stocks being very elevated, having a negative IPO was very telling. But sticking straight to the data, basically we're seeing negativity across several years, it's the worst position vendor in cloud computing that we even cover. We just had to take a look at it right now, and just be honest and say according to the data, this is a very negative data set, there just isn't much we can do about it. Wish them the best, I hope their MSP revenue starts kicking in, and hopefully it'll change. But for right now the snapshot of our data was quite dire. >> Okay, Erik, Well, thanks so much. So let's update folks, so the ETR is exiting, it's quiet, period, which I love, because that means I can have the data and share with you. So we'll be updating our cloud scenarios, security, automation, our infrastructure, and many other segments as well. Certainly the data piece, we've been tracking snowflake very closely. And of course, Erik, you guys are already gearing up for your January survey. So, you know... >> It never ends Dave. And I've... >> Well, I got a really... I've got a sizzle panel that I'm doing next week as well, where we got four sizzles talking about security threats and priorities for 2021. So as soon as I wrap that, you'll be the first one I get my summary to. >> Oh, those are great. I mean, there's such deep dives with practitioners, and it's just an open discussion. So Erik Bradley, thanks so much for coming back in theCube. >> Have a great weekend Dave. >> Yeah, you too. And thank you for watching everybody this episode of Cube Insights powered by ETR. Go to etr.plus, that's where all the survey action is. I publish every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. All these episodes are available on podcast. Wherever you watch, you can DM me, I'm @DVelllante. I post on LinkedIn, you can comment there or email me @david.vellanteat, @siliconangle.com. This is Dave Vellante for Erik Bradley. Thanks for watching everybody, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Application performance management AKA APM, you know it's been around since the days of the mainframe. Now, as systems' architectures became more complex, the technology evolved to accommodate client-server, web-tier architectures, mobile and now of course, cloud-based systems. A spate of vendors have emerged to solve the sticky problems associated with ensuring consistent and predictable user experiences. The market has grown, I mean it's decent size, it's about $5 billion globally. It's growing at a consistent 10% CAGR. It's got a variety of established companies and new entrants that are attacking this space. Hi everyone, welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. My name is Dave Vellante and today, we welcome back ETR's Erik Bradley, who was the chief engagement strategist at Aptiviti which is the holding company of our data partner, ETR. Erik, my friend, great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on and spending some time with us. >> Oh, always enjoy it Dave. Great to see you too and I'm just glad I got some fresh material for ya. >> As always, you have fresh data. Now, Erik just recently hosted an ETR VENN session and on this particular topic, APM. Now VENNs are an open round table, they're exclusively available to ETR's clients and what we do is we sometimes come in theCUBE and we summarize those sessions in our Breaking Analysis. Now Erik, yo let's start with a summary slide here, guys, if you could bring that up, we just want to make a couple of points and... So as I said Erik, I mean this started back, you know in the System/390 days. Now, distributed systems and cloud of course create a lot more complexity, you got data that's really fragmented. You got user data, you got application data, you have infrastructure data and it gets complicated and you've got guys in lab coats having to come in and diagnose these stuff, lot of tribal knowledge. What are you seeing in the space? >> Well yeah, you know to start back, you know it's funny when the panel I hosted, one of the guys even brought up Tivoli, how long ago that was right? Then of course you get, you know you have the solar winds and you had people like that trying to just kind of monitor your network. You know what we've heard a lot about now is infrastructure has really become code-based. So when that happens, you really start wondering to yourself the lines are blurring between infrastructure and application because at the end of the day, what you're really monitoring is code. So it has gotten incredibly complex, you have OnPrem, you have hybrid, you have multi-cloud approach so it has gotten extremely complex and there's also now a third wave of next-gen vendors getting involved in the mix as well. As you're aware, New Relic and Datadog, obviously, Splunk has been in logging and monitoring for a long time. You also had some of the traditional players throw their hat in the ring through acquisition, that you know AppDynamics gobbled up by Cisco and obviously Splunk trying to continue to reinvent themselves a little bit by SignalFx. So it is a very crowded, complex space, it is a complicated problem but it's also a problem that needs to be solved. You know, we were looking at, you said in your intro about, it's only about a $5 billion market right now but there's been a lot of data out there from industry analysts saying that that's going to grow quite handsomely over the next five years and it could get up to 13, 14, 15 billion. And when I asked my panel about that, I had one gentleman say without a doubt, they see the next 10 years that spending in this space will continue. And when you pry and ask why, they simply state that digital transformation is not going to stop, it's marching forward, whether anyone likes it or not and as it does, monitoring is going to be critical, it's only going to increase and increase and increase. So right now, to your point, it's a small market but it's a growing market and there's a lot of entrance in there and their whole goal is to reduce this complexity that you're talking about. >> Now, one of the things we heard from the panel, guys if you bring up that same slide again, you know the third point on that slide was what's closely tied to digital transformation. You heard a number of individuals say, "Look, your digital business is critical, it's all about monitoring your applications and your data and your infrastructure. And we heard a lot that they wanted a, a single pane of glass and you made a number of points about the market. What are your thoughts on both the digital transformation, maybe the COVID acceleration of that mandate and that notion of a single pane of glass, is that aspirational or is it, in your view, something that is actually technically feasible? >> Not only is it technically feasible, it has to happen. It's going to be demanded by the large enterprise, they can't continue to monitor hundreds and hundreds of applications. They need something that not only can give them observability through their entire stack, but they need to be able to view it in one way, there's enough fatigue in monitoring and logging. And actually it goes even further than one pane of glass, they're demanding that these systems can now actually employ machine learning algorithms to be proactive. It's not enough to just say, "Okay, I observed this," you have to let me know that this may happen in the future and what to do about it. So not only is it feasible, it's something that is being demanded by the end-user market and the players that survive are the ones that already have that in their roadmap. >> Now, as we always like to do in these sessions, we're going to bring up some ETR data and we like to position the companies. So what we do is, we're going to bring up some of the pure players, pure-play companies and you can see them on this slide. But Erik, and when we talk about companies in this space, they are well over a dozen. It's just again for reference, you know it's Cisco with AppD, you mentioned that before Dynatrace is one of the leaders, New Relic has been around for awhile and is doing well, Splunk, Datadog. Now of course, and we're not showing them here, AWS, Microsoft and Google cause they just sort of, they pollute the chart. But so I want to start with the guys that are on this view and maybe talk about a few. Elastic came up a lot, certainly AppD came up a little, Dynatrace was obviously mentioned, especially in large organizations. Lot of conversations about New Relic. So let's go through them. Where do you want to start here? >> Yeah there's a lot to go through and we did spend the majority of the panel talking about the individual players, the differences between them and also what we thought their longer term prospects were but yeah, we'll go through each one. I think maybe to start with, let's go back in time a little bit, right? Cisco is a wonderful acquirer, they do a great job at M&A. A lot of companies will acquire something and let it die on the vine. Cisco has proven recently that they are reinventing themselves as a full platform play, whether that be through, you know, kind of, their networking reach or whether it be through the security. And AppDynamics is one of those that actually kind of gives you a little bit of both with being able to monitor. It is a great play for people that are already involved with Cisco. Now, I don't think you're going to see too many people that are non-Cisco customers run out and buy it. There you're going to see some of them, maybe the pure plays or one of my guests called the third wave of vendors. And that third wave is really about a Datadog and a New Relic. Let's talk about Datadog first. >> Yeah let's bring that back up guys, if you would. Now let me just, sorry to interrupt you Erik (indistinct) The vertical axis here is net score, that's the ETR's primary metric, and that's an indication of spending velocity, the higher, the better. And on the horizontal axis is market share. Now we're showing the July data, the October data is in the field, you know once ETR releases that to its clients, then we'll share that with you. But the first thing that jumps out at me is other than Elastic Erik, I mean, I'm not blown away by the spending momentum in this space but let's talk about that and then some of your thoughts on the specific vendors. >> Yeah, you know I'll go back because you asked a little bit about the digital transformation, I don't think I answered it fully. So to your comment about maybe not being impressed with the spend, I think this is one where the spend is going to come, kind of as a laggard because you're not going to rush out and go buy the software to monitor until you've built out the, what needs to be monitored. So as we're seeing this increase in the digital transformation, and I think you and I had a conversation in the past, but when COVID first hit and I did a series of panels, we had one person say that this virus is going to increase digital transformation by five to 10 years. Now that was an amazing statement. Basically, if you were on the fence, if you didn't, if you weren't already heading down to digital transformation, you needed to play catch up quickly. So now that you are doing that right, now that you're moving from OnPrem to a multicloud or a hybrid cloud environment, you have to get observability, you have to get monitoring into it. So now these players start to play catch up and this is where you're going to see the proof of concepts and you're going to see people trying to decide which direction they're going to take their company. Now back to the actual vendors. I believe that there is some differentiation, right? So we'll just take, for instance, Splunk. Splunk is obviously probably the biggest boy on the block when it comes to just straight up logging and monitoring. They've leveraged that big boy position to really, you know, add some costs, kind of intimidate their customers they've been compared in the past of the type of things that Oracle used to do from their cost perspective. And that's opened up some new competition, Datadog is one of those. According to my panel, Datadog is viewed more for logging and monitoring than it is truly full end-to-end observability throughout your entire network and application system. So that is one of the areas that's there. Now, to stay on those two names for a quick second, Splunk obviously has some holes in what they're trying to offer, they went out and tried to buy SignalFx to fill one of those holes. Now according to my panel again, did a great job filling that hole, problem is if you have a boat with three holes, you can't put your fingers everywhere. So they think, hey listen, Splunk scrape, they're going to keep the company they have and I know that we can talk a little bit more about valuations and the equity side later, but I think it's very clear that their sales and revenue are trending flat to down, whereas some of these other names still have great acceleration in their sales. So Splunk and Datadog both are really facing pressure from Elastic or generally just open-source. >> I was struck by the panel and how much emphasis they, how much complaining they did about Splunk pricing. Generally, I feel like hey, if your price is too high is the biggest objection, that's actually not a bad thing for a company but the way they kept hitting on it and said, "Hey, we're actively looking for alternatives" and Datadog was one of those and given the momentum that Datadog has, I don't think that that's necessarily a positive. But you know Splunk has a lot of loyal customers but you know to your point if you go back to the slide, Elastic came up very, very strong and they are head and shoulders from a spending momentum above the rest of the crowd here. >> Right. And you know, so you're right. If the only problem with a vendor or a technology is cost, usually you live with it because that means it's giving you what you need. So okay, it's expensive but it's also the best in breed and that's where Splunk has been for a very long time. And I think they're resting on their laurels knowing that. Enter Elastic and you say to these guys, the panel, I asked them, well okay, you can make Elastic work but is it truly a viable alternative from a technology standpoint? And the answer to that was not only is it viable, it's half the price. So if you can bring something in that can do the job the same and it's half the cost, it's really difficult not to at least try. And I had one of the other gentlemen who was a Datadog customer said, "Listen, we love Datadog, we were a huge customer and then I started getting enormous bills and I just switched over to open-source, I switched to Elastic, I switched to Kibana, I switched to Kafka and I can do this search myself. Now the difference is not every enterprise has the human skillset to do so and I'm not saying Splunk's going to turn around to disappear tomorrow, not even close. Because there is a difference in spending that money with the vendor or spending that money developing the human skillset to use open-source. But the bigger backdrop here is there are more alternatives than there used to be, there's more competition and the space is getting very crowded. >> Yeah, comment on open-source. I mean open-source is free like a puppy. But the thing about that, and we had one of the panelists was a very senior consultant, exclusively work with very large companies, he told a story about one of the companies years ago, he came in to solve a problem. The problem was they had 70% availability and then they had no visibility on their infrastructure and there's really no great, no good monitor, they get them up to whatever, five nines or two, three nines or wherever they got them to, but dramatic improvement. And so, but he said, "Look it, I work with companies with billions of dollars, $3 billion IT budgets so they don't rely on open-source for this stuff, they're happy to spend." But there's a huge market, particularly in the mid size where we heard that New Relic plays in a big way, it might be more receptive to open-source. >> Couple of great points there Dave, honestly. I'm going to jump over to the use case that was given by that person who was in a healthcare role. And essentially the part I didn't write into my summary was that his CEO was two days away from shutting down the entire business because he was so frustrated that he had no observability and Dynatrace was the one that was able to step in and fix that. And this gentleman did say that the majority of the companies that he does work with which are all in the Fortune 100, Dynatrace has a stranglehold in that spot. So that's really interesting to note. Now on the flip side, when pushed a little bit more later in the panel, he said, "Dynatrace is sort of resting on its laurels from a product roadmap standpoint and that's going to open up the possibility of a New Relic getting in," a transition to New Relic as you mentioned on their small to medium sized business. They recently launched a new pricing strategy which is basically a free version to get you involved to kind of get their hooks into you and see if you can work it out. And basically what they're trying to do there I think is, you know, make up for their lack of marketing. As you saw the panel that we spoke about said, "New Relic's technology is fantastic." They have the ability to provide a single pane of glass which is the Holy Grail in this space and they have the ability to provide machine learning and proactive type of ability which again are the two things that all of the end-users are asking for. The problem is that most people might not be aware of it because New Relic doesn't have as flashy a marketing department, they don't have the dollars as much as the others to go out there and compete with the Splunk and Dynatrace and Cisco. But from a roadmap perspective, it was almost unanimous that our panel agreed, New Relic is by far, one of the leaders from a functionality standpoint. >> Yeah, if you guys bring that slide up one more time, the X Y. I mean, I look at where New Relic is and I'm like wow, I'm surprised. I mean this company, I mean they were the hot company for awhile and I think still have the capability. You're talking about the technology. NRDB, New Relic database is like, it kicks ass. In fact, you know Erik, somebody brought up in the panel that they thought that snowflake could compete in this market because essentially Snowflake's positioning is this data cloud. But you know, here's New Relic, they have a purpose-built database specifically for monitoring an APM so you would think that with that technology, they could really make some moves. And then I just want to bring in two other companies to the mix here. Honeycomb who I think even their founder and former CEO now CTO, she coined the term I believe, observability. And there's another company that is run by Jeremy Burton, company's called Observe, okay (indistinct) and it's funded by the Silicon Valley Mafia. So that's going to be an interesting one to watch, they're coming out, well they're out of stealth but they're doing a launch on October 7th. So I think those are two companies that could disrupt this space and I would expect to see, as you said, it's a latent momentum in net score from a dataset standpoint because people are trying to plug the holes cause of COVID, you know security, work from home, that pivot and now it's really on to digital transformation and that's where APM really comes in. >> It really does and again, it comes back to that comment someone made a long time ago that everything's becoming code as software eats the world and everything becomes code, you need the ability to kind of monitor that code, enter Honeycomb. And as you know, we have two different studies at ETR, one of them is for emerging technology. Honeycomb is in our emerging technology study that's more of a private series B to series E round stage whereas our main study is for companies that are pre IPO or already public. But Honeycomb is a little bit different in my opinion, that they're focused very much so on the developers or the software engineers. They're a very microservices oriented type of product whereas some of the other ones may have started as an infrastructure monitoring and then kind of work their way backward into application. But Honeycomb certainly needs to be observed and it's funny when you talk about that, the one thing I think is, "Oh great, more players." The crowded space gets even more crowded. And I think well you know, kind of foreshadowing something you and I will be speaking about in a little bit but there's a lot of players in this space and there's a lot of other possible interest in there. You mentioned Snowflake. It actually wasn't brought up from our panelists, it was a question that came from one of my clients that said, "Hey, I'm curious, can snowflake play in this space?" And the panel thought about it for a second and said, "There's absolutely no reason why they can't, they most certainly can." And we all know the cash they have so I mean the easiest way to play in that would maybe be to buy some of the technology, integrate it in and yeah, they have that portability. And if I can real quickly, they've just, one of the things that came out that was so important about this, we haven't spoken about the vendors is, is the public cloud. The public cloud offers this. They offer monitoring, they'll give it to you for free. If I'm going to run Kubernetes at Google, I'm going to get the monitoring for free which is super nice, right? But if I have an enterprise that has multicloud or hybrid cloud, and I'm working outside of that public cloud silo, it doesn't work. This is the exact conversation you and I had about Snowflake. AWS Redshift's fantastic but it doesn't work outside of AWS. So if every one of our enterprises continues on the digital transformation, they need portability. They have to be able to go across any architecture structure and that's why these independent providers are really starting to gain steam when you would think they could never compete with the public cloud. >> Yeah man, that's a great point. And we've talked about this in the context of Snowflake that who are you going to trust with your multi-cloud strategy? Are you going to trust AWS? Are you going to trust Google? Yeah, okay, they got Anthos but we kind of know why they're taking that posture. Microsoft, look, I'm probably going to partner with somebody who can, who's maybe I have a relationship with them with my OnPrem and that is really sort of agnostic to the various clouds so I'm glad you brought that up. And you know the point you're making about Honeycomb is a good one and I'll add that, again, it gets more complex with microservices and containers, that's spinning them up, spinning them down. Sometimes these, first of all, these microservices, sometimes aren't that micro and second of all, you're sometimes talking about hundreds of thousands of containers so it's a really increasingly complex environment. All right. What I want to do is-- >> You didn't even touch on serverless, we'll do that some other day. >> Oh, yeah, I mean absolutely. A hundred percent, right. So, now let's take a look at some of the valuations, guys if you bring that up for me. So I put this little chart together and it's always instructive. Now I like to, simple guy Erik so I like to... So you see, the company, I take a trailing 12-month revenue and then the market cap as of 9/25. And then just a simple revenue multiple, just to get a sense, it's not a hardcore valuation model but it's interesting and there usually is a correlation to the growth rate, I just pulled that off the latest quarterly growth rate. I mean, look at Datadog. I mean that's like Snowflake pre IPO valuations. I mean you're really, right around there with smaller revenue, smaller growth rate, Snowflakes up in the whatever 120% range but well eye-popping. You know the same valuation as Splunk, I mean that's just amazing. What do you make of this data? >> Well, you know I was an equity analyst for almost 15 years on the Wall Street side. So the, my first caveat is a trailing revenue to the multiple is not always the same because people are looking at what the forward expected revenue will be but I actually do see the correlation here. And when you brought this up, my eyes popped open. I do not understand why Datadog has a 27 billion market cap on a trailing 350 million in revenue. I just don't know if their forward looking growth really warrants that and at the same time, then you look at a Splunk, right? I mean they have two and a half billion in revenue but their growth rate's down and truthfully, when I see a -5% growth rate, I don't know why you weren't at 12% sales either. I would argue that there's quite a few names on here that could be in for a reckoning, ETR actually as far back as a year ago caught this in our data and said, "Hey, there's some inflection points here and I think investors need to pay attention to them." And since we came out with the July report, a lot of these names we're talking about, despite insane valuations in the equity markets are flat to down. And, you know I do think that, hey if they stay stagnant and their technology is right but it's a crowded space, I think we're really leading to the point where as one of my panelists said, this industry is ripe for consolidation. These players are not all going to be here in 12 months, it's that simple. >> Yeah and by the way, thank you for mentioning that as a former equity analyst, you were right (indistinct) 12 months, it's kind of the rear-view mirror. But I'll tell you, two reasons why I do that. One is, I put the growth rate in there so you can pick your own growth rate and your own forward revenue. The other is it's really easy for me to get TTM off a Yahoo as opposed to >> Right exactly. >> And so truth be told. But, guys bring that back up one more time cause I want to make a point about New Relic. I mean I think they are potentially right for an M&A because they got great technology. Now remember Elliot Management is in there and when Elliot's is in there, stuff's going to happen. They're going to start cleaning house, they're going to really create changes, they don't just get in in a big way and sit back and watch, they are extremely active. And the New Relic, leader in this space, great technology, great heritage. So either they got to clean up and get that valuation back up maybe as you pointed out, little bit better marketing posture, et cetera or they get taken out. >> Yeah and let's think about the two things that coincide, right? You have one of the world's best activist funds get involved in Elliot Management. And as you said, they don't get involved to just sort of watch or observe as we're talking about here today, they are very active in trying to get some sort of a, you know, corporate action done. And at the same time, all of a sudden New Relic comes out with a new pricing model. They're trying to create a moat around the small to medium business, right? They're trying to grow their footprint. Now the great thing about getting involved in small to medium businesses, it starts off for free but you grow with them. So I don't think those two are a coincidence, let me just put it that way. I think that they're coming in, they're trying to entrench themselves in a new market and set themselves up for future growth and I truly believe that based on the product roadmap and the feedback we were getting from the end-users in my panel, New Relic has the ability to look across all architecture, it has the ability to provide a single pane of glass and it has the ability to incorporate machine learning for proactive response. Their roadmap is fantastic, they have an active manager inside as an investor, I don't think they're going to be around for much, much longer. And obviously that you look around and you wonder who the acquirers will be and it might be one of the major cloud players. >> Yeah that would be interesting. I mean it gives them a play in a multicloud world and either they're going to just use that for their own advantage or they will actually see that as an opportunity, we'll be itching to watch. Alright, anything we didn't cover that you want to touch on or give us your final thoughts, please Erik. >> You know I would also just sort of mention a little bit about Splunk. This is a company that has a tremendous amount of revenue, a tremendous installed customer base but many, many times we've seen it before and Oracle is the greatest example. They kind of forget about their customers and they don't treat them properly. And I can't tell you how many people I have mentioned to me said, "Hey when this all went down in the viral pandemic and I went to Splunk and I asked for a little bit of pricing flexibility, I asked for this, I asked for that and they just wouldn't give it to me." And I wrote an article once called (indistinct) never forget similar to an elephant. And when they come out the other side, they're going to find a way to replace them. And today I also wrote an article that it was our 200th interview and I entitled it, The Splunk Funk. And basically it's about all the alternatives that are now out there, not just open source, but other vendors, even the vulnerability management players like a Rapid7, like a Tenable are getting into this space now. Fortinet, which one guy called "Fortaeverything" is a company that's really expanding. So I would just really kind of caution some of those vendors out there that don't rest on your laurels, don't take your customers for granted because sooner or later, they're going to be in a position to bite the back. >> Well I'll say this about Splunk, I've been following the company since the early part of last decade and I've done a lot of Cube interviews at their shows. They do have a passionate, passionate customer base, they got the experts that run around with that crazy hat and I've seen Splunk killers emerge for the last decade and so... But I think your point is right. I mean they've, the SignalFx acquisition was something that, it was a hole to fill and it gets them into a subscription-based model, they're going through that transition now. But I think they have some real gravity with their customer base. So, all right, let me summarize. For years, the application monitoring and management, it's really relied on alerts, logs, traces and even what I call tribal knowledge. In that world of pre-distributed systems, that was fine, like I said a trace can tell you what was going on. But things have begotten much more complicated architecturally with cloud and mobile and they're really changing fast now. Erik mentioned serverless, we talked about containers. So, today it's much harder to understand the customer experience because it's difficult to get a full picture of the data. And what I mean by that is that the user data, the application data, the infrastructure data, they're all fragmented and the Holy Grail solution really takes all this disparate data, it ingests it, it transforms it. Connects the dots if you will, across clouds, Onprem and then it shapes it, brings in machine intelligence, really creating an organic systems view that can proactively tell you that there's a problem coming. And finally, nearly absolute Nirvana is doing this in a way that non-technical people are going to be able to understand the true user experience. You know in theory, this is going to allow organizations to remediate in 110th the time with much, much lower costs and that's going to be critical in this world of digital transformation. So thank you Erik, really appreciate you coming on today. >> Always enjoy it Dave, it's always great talking to you and hopefully we'll do it again soon. >> All right, I can't wait. And thank you everybody for watching this episode of theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Remember these episodes, they're all available on podcasts. We publish weekly on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com so you got to check that out. And don't forget, go to etr.plus for all the survey action. Would appreciate if you kindly comment on my LinkedIn post or tweet me @dvellante or email at david.vellante@siliconangle.com This is Dave Vellante. Thanks so much to Erik Bradley, be well and we'll see you next time. (bouncy music)

>> Announcer: It's theCUBE! Covering the Virtual Vertica Big Data Conference 2020 brought to you by Vertica. >> Hi, everybody. Welcome back. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of the Vertica Virtual Big Data Conference. It was, of course, going to be in Boston at the Encore Hotel. Win big with big data with the new casino but obviously Coronavirus has changed all that. Our hearts go out and we are empathy to those people who are struggling. We are going to continue our wall-to-wall coverage of this conference and we're here with Larry Lancaster who's the founder and CTO of Zebrium. Larry, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Hi, thanks for having me. >> You're welcome. So first question, why did you start Zebrium? >> You know, I've been dealing with machine data a long time. So for those of you who don't know what that is, if you can imagine servers or whatever goes on in a data center or in a SAS shop. There's data coming out of those servers, out of those applications and basically, you can build a lot of cool stuff on that. So there's a lot of metrics that come out and there's a lot of log files that come. And so, I've built this... Basically spent my career building that sort of thing. So tools on top of that or products on top of that. The problem is that since at least log files are completely unstructured, it's always doing the same thing over and over again, which is going in and understanding the data and extracting the data and all that stuff. It's very time consuming. If you've done it like five times you don't want to do it again. So really, my idea was at this point with machine learning where it's at there's got to be a better way. So Zebrium was founded on the notion that we can just do all that automatically. We can take a pile of machine data, we can turn it into a database, and we can build stuff on top of that. And so the company is really all about bringing that value to the market. >> That's cool. I want to get in to that, just better understand who you're disrupting and understand that opportunity better. But before I do, tell us a little bit about your background. You got kind of an interesting background. Lot of tech jobs. Give us some color there. >> Yeah, so I started in the Valley I guess 20 years ago and when my son was born I left grad school. I was in grad school over at Berkeley, Biophysics. And I realized I needed to go get a job so I ended up starting in software and I've been there ever since. I mean, I spent a lot of time at, I guess I cut my teeth at Nedap, which was a storage company. And then I co-founded a business called Glassbeam, which was kind of an ETL database company. And then after that I ended up at Nimble Storage. Another company, EMC, ended up buying the Glassbeam so I went over there and then after Nimble though, which where I build the InfoSight platform. That's where I kind of, after that I was able to step back and take a year and a half and just go into my basement, actually, this is my kind of workspace here, and come up with the technology and actually build it so that I could go raise money and get a team together to build Zebrium. So that's really my career in a nutshell. >> And you've got Hello Kitty over your right shoulder, which is kind of cool >> That's right. >> And then up to the left you got your monitor, right? >> Well, I had it. It's over here, yeah. >> But it was great! Pull it out, pull it out, let me see it. So, okay, so you got that. So what do you do? You just sit there and code all night or what? >> Yeah, that's right. So Hello Kitty's over here. I have a daughter and she setup my workspace here on this side with Hello Kitty and so on. And over on this side, I've got my recliner where I basically lay it all the way back and then I pivot this thing down over my face and put my keyboard on my lap and I can just sit there for like 20 hours. It's great. Completely comfortable. >> That's cool. All right, better put that monitor back or our guys will yell at me. But so, obviously, we're talking to somebody with serious coding chops and I'll also add that the Nimble InfoSight, I think it was one of the best pick ups that HP, HPE, has had in a while. And the thing that interested me about that, Larry, is the ability that the company was able to take that InfoSight and poured it very quickly across its product lines. So that says to me it was a modern, architecture, I'm sure API, microservices, and all those cool buzz words, but the proof is in their ability to bring that IP to other parts of the portfolio. So, well done. >> Yeah, well thanks. Appreciate that. I mean, they've got a fantastic team there. And the other thing that helps is when you have the notion that you don't just build on top of the data, you extract the data, you structure it, you put that in a database, we used Vertica there for that, and then you build on top of that. Taking the time to build that layer is what lets you build a scalable platform. >> Yeah, so, why Vertica? I mean, Vertica's been around for awhile. You remember you had the you had the old RDBMS, Oracles, Db2s, SQL Server, and then the database was kind of a boring market. And then, all of a sudden, you had all of these MPP companies came out, a spade of them. They all got acquired, including Vertica. And they've all sort of disappeared and morphed into different brands and Micro Focus has preserved the Vertica brand. But it seems like Vertica has been able to survive the transitions. Why Vertica? What was it about that platform that was unique and interested you? >> Well, I mean, so they're the first fund to build, what I would call a real column store that's kind of market capable, right? So there was the C-Store project at Berkeley, which Stonebreaker was involved in. And then that became sort of the seed from which Vertica was spawned. So you had this idea of, let's lay things out in a columnar way. And when I say columnar, I don't just mean that the data for every column is in a different set of files. What I mean by that is it takes full advantage of things like run length and coding, and L file and coding, and block--impression, and so you end up with these massive orders of magnitude savings in terms of the data that's being pulled off of storage as well as as it's moving through the pipeline internally in Vertica's query processing. So why am I saying all this? Because it's fundamentally, it was a fundamentally disruptive technology. I think column stores are ubiquitous now in analytics. And I think you could name maybe a couple of projects which are mostly open source who do something like Vertica does but name me another one that's actually capable of serving an enterprise as a relational database. I still think Vertica is unique in being that one. >> Well, it's interesting because you're a startup. And so a lot of startups would say, okay, we're going with a born-in-the-cloud database. Now Vertica touts that, well look, we've embraced cloud. You know, we have, we run in the cloud, we run on PRAM, all different optionality. And you hear a lot of vendors say that, but a lot of times they're just taking their stack and stuffing it into the cloud. But, so why didn't you go with a cloud-native database and is Vertica able to, I mean, obviously, that's why you chose it, but I'm interested from a technologist standpoint as to why you, again, made that choice given all these other choices around there. >> Right, I mean, again, I'm not, so... As I explained a column store, which I think is the appropriate definition, I'm not aware of another cloud-native-- >> Hm, okay. >> I'm aware of other cloud-native transactional databases, I'm not aware of one that has the analytics form it and I've tried some of them. So it was not like I didn't look. What I was actually impressed with and I think what let me move forward using Vertica in our stack is the fact that Eon really is built from the ground up to be cloud-native. And so we've been using Eon almost ever since we started the work that we're doing. So I've been really happy with the performance and with reliability of Eon. >> It's interesting. I've been saying for years that Vertica's a diamond in the rough and it's previous owner didn't know what to do with it because it got distracted and now Micro Focus seems to really see the value and is obviously putting some investments in there. >> Yeah >> Tell me more about your business. Who are you disrupting? Are you kind of disrupting the do-it-yourself? Or is there sort of a big whale out there that you're going to go after? Add some color to that. >> Yeah, so our broader market is monitoring software, that's kind of the high-level category. So you have a lot of people in that market right now. Some of them are entrenched in large players, like Datadog would be a great example. Some of them are smaller upstarts. It's a pretty, it's a pretty saturated market. But what's happened over the last, I'd say two years, is that there's been sort of a push towards what's called observability in terms of at least how some of the products are architected, like Honeycomb, and how some of them are messaged. Most of them are messaged these days. And what that really means is there's been sort of an understanding that's developed that that MTTR is really what people need to focus on to keep their customers happy. If you're a SAS company, MTTR is going to be your bread and butter. And it's still measured in hours and days. And the biggest reason for that is because of what's called unknown unknowns. Because of complexity. Now a days, things are, applications are ten times as complex as they used to be. And what you end up with is a situation where if something is new, if it's a known issue with a known symptom and a known root cause, then you can setup a automation for it. But the ones that really cost a lot of time in terms of service disruption are unknown unknowns. And now you got to go dig into this massive mass of data. So observability is about making tools to help you do that, but it's still going to take you hours. And so our contention is, you need to automate the eyeball. The bottleneck is now the eyeball. And so you have to get away from this notion of a person's going to be able to do it infinitely more efficient and recognize that you need automated help. When you get an alert agent, it shouldn't be that, "Hey, something weird's happening. Now go dig in." It should be, "Here's a root cause and a symptom." And that should be proposed to you by a system that actually does the observing. That actually does the watching. And that's what Zebrium does. >> Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, you're right. The last thing you want is just another alert and it say, "Go figure something out because there's a problem." So how does it work, Larry? In terms of what you built there. Can you take us inside the covers? >> Yeah, sure. So there's really, right now there's two kinds of data that we're ingesting. There's metrics and there's log files. Metrics, there's actually sort of a framework that's really popular in DevOp circles especially but it's becoming popular everywhere, which is called Prometheus. And it's a way of exporting metrics so that scrapers can collect them. And so if you go look at a typical stack, you'll find that most of the open source components and many of the closed source components are going to have exporters that export all their stacks to Prometheus. So by supporting that stack we can bring in all of those metrics. And then there's also the log files. And so you've got host log files in a containerized environment, you've got container logs, and you've got application-specific logs, perhaps living on a host mount. And you want to pull all those back and you want to be able to associate this log that I've collected here is associated with the same container on the same host that this metric is associated with. But now what? So once you've got that, you've got a pile of unstructured logs. So what we do is we take a look at those logs and we say, let's structure those into tables, right? So where I used to have a log message, if I look in my log file and I see it says something like, X happened five times, right? Well, that event types going to occur again and it'll say, X happened six times or X happened three times. So if I see that as a human being, I can say, "Oh clearly, that's the same thing." And what's interesting here is the times that X, that X happened, and that this number read... I may want to know when the numbers happened as a time series, the values of that column. And so you can imagine it as a table. So now I have table for that event type and every time it happens, I get a row. And then I have a column with that number in it. And so now I can do any kind of analytics I want almost instantly across my... If I have all my event types structured that way, every thing changes. You can do real anomaly detection and incident detection on top of that data. So that's really how we go about doing it. How we go about being able to do autonomous monitoring in a way that's effective. >> How do you handle doing that for, like the Spoke app? Do you have to, does somebody have to build a connector to those apps? How do you handle that? >> Yeah, that's a really good question. So you're right. So if I go and install a typical log manager, there'll be connectors for different apps and usually what that means is pulling in the stuff on the left, if you were to be looking at that log line, and it will be things like a time stamp, or a severity, or a function name, or various other things. And so the connector will know how to pull those apart and then the stuff to the right will be considered the message and that'll get indexed for search. And so our approach is we actually go in with machine learning and we structure that whole thing. So there's a table. And it's going to have a column called severity, and timestamp, and function name. And then it's going to have columns that correspond to the parameters that are in that event. And it'll have a name associated with the constant parts of that event. And so you end up with a situation where you've structured all of it automatically so we don't need collectors. It'll work just as well on your home-grown app that has no collectors or no parsers to find or anything. It'll work immediately just as well as it would work on anything else. And that's important, because you can't be asking people for connectors to their own applications. It just, it becomes now they've go to stop what they're doing and go write code for you, for your platform and they have to maintain it. It's just untenable. So you can be up and running with our service in three minutes. It'll just be monitoring those for you. >> That's awesome! I mean, that is really a breakthrough innovation. So, nice. Love to see that hittin' the market. Who do you sell to? Both types of companies and what role within the company? >> Well, definitely there's two main sort of pushes that we've seen, or I should say pulls. One is from DevOps folks, SRE folks. So these are people who are tasked with monitoring an environment, basically. And then you've got people who are in engineering and they have a staging environment. And what they actually find valuable is... Because when we find an incident in a staging environment, yeah, half the time it's because they're tearing everything up and it's not release ready, whatever's in stage. That's fine, they know that. But the other half the time it's new bugs, it's issues and they're finding issues. So it's kind of diverged. You have engineering users and they don't have titles like QA, they're Dev engineers or Dev managers that are really interested. And then you've got DevOps and SRE people there (mumbles). >> And how do I consume your product? Is the SAS... I sign up and you say within three minutes I'm up and running. I'm paying by the drink. >> Well, (laughs) right. So there's a couple ways. So, right. So the easiest way is if you use Kubernetes. So Kubernetes is what's called a container orchestrator. So these days, you know Docker and containers and all that, so now there's container orchestrators have become, I wouldn't say ubiquitous but they're very popular now. So it's kind of on that inflection curve. I'm not exactly sure the penetration but I'm going to say 30-40% probably of shops that were interested are using container orchestrators. So if you're using Kubernetes, basically you can install our Kubernetes chart, which basically means copying and pasting a URL and so on into your little admin panel there. And then it'll just start collecting all the logs and metrics and then you just login on the website. And the way you do that is just go to our website and it'll show you how to sign up for the service and you'll get your little API key and link to the chart and you're off and running. You don't have to do anything else. You can add rules, you can add stuff, but you don't have to. You shouldn't have to, right? You should never have to do any more work. >> That's great. So it's a SAS capability and I just pay for... How do you price it? >> Oh, right. So it's priced on volume, data volume. I don't want to go too much into it because I'm not the pricing guy. But what I'll say is that it's, as far as I know it's as cheap or cheaper than any other log manager or metrics product. It's in that same neighborhood as the very low priced ones. Because right now, we're not trying to optimize for take. We're trying to make a healthy margin and get the value of autonomous monitoring out there. Right now, that's our priority. >> And it's running in the cloud, is that right? AWB West-- >> Yeah, that right. Oh, I should've also pointed out that you can have a free account if it's less than some number of gigabytes a day we're not going to charge. Yeah, so we run in AWS. We have a multi-tenant instance in AWS. And we have a Vertica Eon cluster behind that. And it's been working out really well. >> And on your freemium, you have used the Vertica Community Edition? Because they don't charge you for that, right? So is that how you do it or... >> No, no. We're, no, no. So, I don't want to go into that because I'm not the bizdev guy. But what I'll say is that if you're doing something that winds up being OEM-ish, you can work out the particulars with Vertica. It's not like you're going to just go pay retail and they won't let you distinguish between tests, and prod, and paid, and all that. They'll work with you. Just call 'em up. >> Yeah, and that's why I brought it up because Vertica, they have a community edition, which is not neutered. It runs Eon, it's just there's limits on clusters and storage >> There's limits. >> But it's still fully functional though. >> So to your point, we want it multi-tenant. So it's big just because it's multi-tenant. We have hundred of users on that (audio cuts out). >> And then, what's your partnership with Vertica like? Can we close on that and just describe that a little bit? >> What's it like. I mean, it's pleasant. >> Yeah, I mean (mumbles). >> You know what, so the important thing... Here's what's important. What's important is that I don't have to worry about that layer of our stack. When it comes to being able to get the performance I need, being able to get the economy of scale that I need, being able to get the absolute scale that I need, I've not been disappointed ever with Vertica. And frankly, being able to have acid guarantees and everything else, like a normal mature database that can join lots of tables and still be fast, that's also necessary at scale. And so I feel like it was definitely the right choice to start with. >> Yeah, it's interesting. I remember in the early days of big data a lot of people said, "Who's going to need these acid properties and all this complexity of databases." And of course, acid properties and SQL became the killer features and functions of these databases. >> Who didn't see that one coming, right? >> Yeah, right. And then, so you guys have done a big seed round. You've raised a little over $6 million dollars and you got the product market fit down. You're ready to rock, right? >> Yeah, that's right. So we're doing a launch probably, well, when this airs it'll probably be the day before this airs. Basically, yeah. We've got people... Like literally in the last, I'd say, six to eight weeks, It's just been this sort of pique of interest. All of a sudden, everyone kind of gets what we're doing, realizes they need it, and we've got a solution that seems to meet expectations. So it's like... It's been an amazing... Let me just say this, it's been an amazing start to the year. I mean, at the same time, it's been really difficult for us but more difficult for some other people that haven't been able to go to work over the last couple of weeks and so on. But it's been a good start to the year, at least for our business. So... >> Well, Larry, congratulations on getting the company off the ground and thank you so much for coming on theCUBE and being part of the Virtual Vertica Big Data Conference. >> Thank you very much. >> All right, and thank you everybody for watching. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. Keep it right there. We're covering wall-to-wall Virtual Vertica BDC. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From Hell's Kitchen in New York City. It's theCUBE, on the ground, at Serverlessconf. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, here with theCUBE at Serverlessconf 2017 in New York City, Hell's Kitchen, actually, happy to welcome to the program, hard to believe, someone, as far as I can tell, we've never had on the program-- >> Yeah, I don't think so. >> But I've known for a long time, actually been drinking with him in Hell's Kitchen before, so Aneel Lakhani, thanks so much for letting me interview you. Your current position is vice president of marketing at Honeycomb.io >> Correct. >> Do you just call it Honeycomb or-- >> We just call it Honeycomb. >> Alright. So, Aneel, how are you doing? Tell us a little bit about your background, but keep it short and what gets you involved in the whole serverless ecosystem? >> Yeah, sure. So, about me, I've been in tech for a little over 20 years now, started out as an engineer, moved through a bunch of systems roles, architecture roles, and product roles, and now I run marketing at start-ups, which is what I've been doing for the last half decade or so. >> I think back to when Amazon announced Lambda, everybody's like, "Ooh, it's cool, what is it? "How do I use it?" Things like that. One of the things I've heard out of this event, this week, is tooling, monitoring, understanding, digging into it, which really falls into Honeycomb space. >> Yeah, I mean, it sort of does. I mean, at Honeycomb we do what we call observability, which is something a bit larger than just monitoring, right. It's really getting to the point where you can develop an understanding of what your services and what your code do in real life under real load with real users. >> Speaking of John Willis, about what is the role of operations when I don't own the infrastructure, I have to trust someone else to do it. So, bring us in there a little bit, what are some of the challenges people are having, how do they help when they're leveraging? >> Yeah, so something that's very clear about serverless approaches to building things, and especially if you're using something like Lambda, is that, as a software engineer, who writes a function, you are 100% responsible for all of your operations at that point, because the ops people for your stack are behind an API. You are on the other side of that API, and what they do is effectively a black box, which means you have to not only understand what your thing does, you have to understand what they do and how they do it, and it's some means of accessing both those bits of data. So you get what Amazon tells you for Lambda, or what any of the other providers tell you for their functions, but you also have to then understand how your code performs on that specific provider, which means you have to do things like wrap your functions in timers and emit events which go into Kinesis, or wherever else, so that you can track what's going on. >> Yeah, one of the problems, of course, any time you have any layer of abstraction is, if things go wrong, how do you get the expertise to know, how do you get in there, is this even worse in serverless? >> Yes and no, I mean, it depends on how much faith you have in your provider, right? So, one of the companies here put up a chart that shows you the performance, on average, of the call response time for the functions for all of the providers that provide serverless infrastructure. And they're not even remotely consistent. They're not consistent within even a few percentiles. In other words, if you care about performance, and you care about predictability for your function, it's basically impossible to get that from any given provider. >> Alright, so, talk to us, what are you hearing from users these days, what's exciting you in this space? >> Yeah, so what we hear from our users, anyway, at Honeycomb, who are using Lambda, and using serverless functions, is that the ability for them to get visibility into how a function performs is basically the highest priority outside of writing a function itself. Because they don't know what's happening below them, they don't know all the resource allocations at any given point in time by the provider, so the thing they have to go on, for the rest of the black box, is how their own function performs, which means they need the ability to take any given function and either decompose it into parts, which have their own events or metrics or telemetry that they emit, or they need to do that to the entire function from end-to-end. So basically have a concept of, this is an old concept for us, which is an end-to-end check, right? I want to know what happens when a point that I touch with a sim until my entire set of functions are complete at the end. >> Yeah, we're going back to like an IP ping, right? >> That's right, yeah, effectively. >> Today, Honeycomb, do you only support Lambda, do you support some of the other serverless frameworks that are out there? >> So, we are agnostic. So, basically, the way Honeycomb works is that our users instrument their code, and we're not service-only, it could be any code running anywhere, and they emit data, and that data is in the form of structured events, those structured events are consumed by Honeycomb, and then Honeycomb turns around and lets you do fast analysis against it. >> Yeah, you've got a lot of background of, "How do we leverage the knowledge of the crowd?" >> Yeah. >> So many times it's what are people finding when they're really getting involved here, you're tooling and others, what mistakes are they making, how can they get better, faster at what they're doing? >> Yeah, a common mistake that people make is not thinking about what is and is not blocking within their functions, and not understanding the threading model of the underlying stack, and when they should spin up additional functions and split up work, versus when they shouldn't, and the only way to understand that is, one, to read all the damn docs, and two to experiment. >> Yeah. What about the maturity of serverless? There've been a lot of discussions here. I had Mark from Trendade on, we talked about security, and the like, but what do you see, kind of in the maturation cycle, of serverless, anything you've heard, or still things that are looking to get fixed even more? >> Maturity isn't the word that I want to use here, I think it's more interesting to think of it in terms of breadth of capabilities, right? So, all of the serverless offerings for all of the vendors have limitations on either the programming languages you can use or the nature of the functions that can be run or the research allocation you can have. I think there's not a lot of maturity that we're going to see from the vendors other than more consistent performance, what we are going to see maturity in is, from the users' standpoint, of how they construct things. >> Yeah. Any data you can share is just how prevalent serverless is out there in the wild, you know, what's the typical use taste, typical customer kind of order of magnitude, how many people are doing it, and therefore driving discussions? >> Yeah, I have no idea. >> You have no idea about this. >> What I do know is, in our user base, we have some significant users of Honeycomb who are 100% run on Amazon Lambda, but that's my tiny, little sample size. >> Okay, want to give you the final word, serverless conference and serverless in general, what's your take today, what should people be looking at in the next six or 12 months? >> Yeah, so I more-or-less agree with Simon Wardley about this, which is, effectively this is a way for Amazon to eat most of the tech ecosystem, assuming people become dependent on it. >> Alright, well, I always say with theCUBE we like to take those hallway conversations, someone that I've had many hallway conversations with, and over the Twitters, and other ways, it's great to catch up with you, Aneel Lakhani, thanks so much for joining us >> Thank you so much. >> I'm Stu Miniman and thanks for watching theCUBE.