>>from the >>Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders around the globe. >>These are cloud native insights. Hi, I'm stupid, man. And welcome to Episode one of Cloud Native Insights. So this is a new program brought to you by Silicon Angle Media's The Cube. I am your host stew minimum, and we're going to be digging in to cloud native and, of course, cloud native like cloud before kind of a generic term. If you look at it online, there's a lot of buzzwords. There's a lot of jargon out there, and so we want to help. Understand what? This is what This isn't on And really happy to welcome back to the program to help me kick it off you piss car. He is an industry analyst. His company is T l A Tech. You. Thanks so much for joining us. >>Thanks, Dave. Glad we're >>all right. And one of the reasons I wanted you to help me kick this off. Not only have you been on the Cube, you know your background. I met you when you were the cto of a service provider over there in Europe, where you're Netherlands based. You were did strategy for a very large ah, supermarket chain also. And you've been on the program that shows like docker con in the past. You work in the cloud native space you've done consulting for. Some of the companies will be talking about today. But you help me kick this off a little bit. When you heard here the term cloud native. Does that mean anything to you? Did that mean anything back in your previous roles? You know, help us tee that up. >>So, you know, it kind of gives off a certain direction and where people are going. Right. Um so to me, Cloud native is more about the way you use cloud, not necessarily about the cloud services themselves. So, you know, for instance, I'll take the example of the supermarket. They had a big e commerce presence. And so we were come getting them to a place where they could, in smaller teams, deploy software in a faster, more often and in a safer way so that teams could work independently of each other, work on, you know, adding business value, whatever that may be for any kind of different company. That's a cloud native to me, Connie means using that to the fullest extent, using those services available to you in a way organizationally and culturally. That makes sense to you, you know, Go wherever you need to go. Be that release every hour or, you know, transform your s AP environment to something that is more nimble, more flexible, literally more agile. So what cloud native means so many things to so many people? Because it's immediately is not directly about the technology, but how you actually use it. >>Um, and u Pua and I are in, you know, strong agreement on this thing. One is you've noticed we haven't said kubernetes yet. We haven't talked about containers because cloud native is not about the tooling. We're, you know, strong participants in you know, the CN CF activities. The Cloud Native Computing Foundation, cube con and cloud native is a huge show. Great momentum one. We're big fans of too often people would conflate and they'd say, Oh, cloud native equals. I'm doing containers and I've, you know, deployed kubernetes one of the challenges out there. You talk about companies, you know? Well, you know, I had a cloud first initiative and I'm using multi cloud and all this stuff. It's like, Well, are you actually leveraging these capabilities, or did I shove things in something I'd railed about for the last couple of years? You talk about repatriation, and repatriation is often I went to go do cloud. I didn't really understand what I was doing. I didn't understand how to leverage that stuff. And I crawled back to what I was doing before because I knew how to do that. Well, so, you know, I think you said it really well. Cloud native means I'm taking advantage of the services. I'm doing things in a much more modern way. The thing I've loved talking to practitioners and one of things I want to do on this program absolutely is talk to practitioners is how have you gone through things organizationally, there are lots of things right now. Talk about like, thin ops. And, of course, all the spin off from Dev Ops and Dev SEC ops. And, like, how are we breaking through silos? How we're modernizing our environments, how we're taking advantage of new ways of doing things and new services. So yeah, I guess you You know, there are some really cool tools out there. Those are awesome things. But, you know, I love your viewpoint. Your perspective on often people in tech are like, Hey, I have this really cool new tool that I can use, you know? Can I take advantage of that? You know, do I do things in a new way, or do I just kind of take my old way and just make things maybe a little incrementally better? Hopefully with some new tooling. >>Oh, yeah. I mean, I totally agree. Um, you know, tooling is cool. Let me let me start by saying that I You know, I'm an engineer by heart, so I love tinkering with new new stuff. So I love communities I love. Um, you know that a new terra form released, for instance, I love seeing competition in the container orchestration space. I love driving into K native server lists. You know, all those technologies I like, But it is a matter of, you know, what can you do with them, right. So, for instance, has she corporate line of mine? I work on their hashtag off. Even they offer kind of Ah, not necessarily an alternative, but kind of adjacent approach to you what the CNC F is doing, and even in those cases, and I'm up specifically calling out Hashi Corp. But I'm kind of giving. The broader overview is, um, it doesn't actually matter what to use, Even though it'll help me. It'll make me happy just to play around with them. But those new tools have to mean something. They have to solve a particular problem. You have either in speed of delivery or consistency of delivery or quality of service, the thing you are building for your customers. So it has to mean something. So back in the day when I started out in engineering 15 years ago, a lot of the engineering loss for the sake of engineering just because, you know you could create a piece of infrastructure a little faster, but there was no actual business value to be out there. That's a lot of the engineering kind of was stuck inside of its own realm, or as what you see now is, if you can use terraform and actually get all of you know the potential out of you, it allow you to release offer more quickly because you're able to stand up infrastructure for that software more quickly. And so you know, we've kind of shifted from back in the in the attic or in the basement doing I t. Stuff that no one really understands. The one kind of perceives the business value of it into the realm of okay, If we can deploy this faster or we don't even need to use a server, we can use server lists. Then we have an advantage in the marketplace. You know, whatever marketplace that is, whatever application we're talking about. And so that's the difference to me. And that was that. You know, that's what CN CF is doing to me. That is what has she Corpus is helping build. That is what you know. A lot of companies that built, for instance, a managed kubernetes service. But from nine spectral crowd, all those kinds of companies, they will help, you know, a given customer to speed up their delivery, to not care about the underlying infrastructure anymore. And that's what this is all about to me. And that is what cloud native means use it in a way that I don't actually have to do the toil off the engineering anymore. There's loads of smart people working for, you know, the Big Three cloud vendors. There's loads of people working for those manage service providers, but he's used them so that you can speed up your delivery, create better software created faster, make customers happy. >>Yeah, it's a lot to unpack there. I want to talk a little bit about that landscape, right When you talk about, you know, cloud native, maybe a little compare contrast I think about, you know, the wave of Dev ops and for often people like, you know, Dev Ops. You know, that's a cultural movement. But there's also tooling that I could buy to help me along that weighs automation, you know, going agile methodology. See, I CD are all things that you're like. Well, is this part of Dev Ops, isn't it? There's lots of companies out there that we saw rows rode that wave of Dev ops. And if you talk about cloud native, you know the first thing you know, you start with the cloud providers. So when I hear you talking about, how do we get rid of things that we don't need to worry about? Well, for years, we heard Amazon Web services talk about getting rid of undifferentiated heavy lifting. And it's something that we're huge fans off you talk about. What is the business outcome? It's not. Hey, I went from, you know, a stand alone server to I did virtualized environments. And now I'm looking container ization or serverless. What can I get rid of? How do I take advantage of native services and all of those cloud platforms? One of the huge values there is, it isn't Hey, I deployed this and maybe it's a little bit cheaper and maybe a little better. But there's that that is really the center of where innovation is happening not only from the platform providers they're setting themselves, but from that ecosystem. And I guess I'll put it out there. One of the things I would like to see from Cloud Native should be that I should be able to take care of take advantage of innovation wherever it is. So Cloud Native does not mean it must live in the public cloud. It does not necessarily mean that I'm going, you know, full bore, multi cloud everywhere. I've had some great debates with Corey Quinn, on the Cube Online and the like, because if you look at customer environments today, you know, yes, they absolutely have their data centers. They're leveraging, typically more than one public cloud. SAS is a big part of the picture and then edge computing and pulls everything away into a much more distributed architecture. So, you know, I'm glad you brought up. You know, Hashi, a company you're working with really interesting. And if you talk about cloud native, it's there. They're not trying to get people to, oh, use multiple clouds because it's good for us. It's they. Hey, the reality is that you're probably using multiple clouds, and whether it's one cloud or many clouds or even in your data center, we have a set of tools that we can offer you. So you know, Hashi, you mentioned, you know, terra form vault. You know, the various tooling is that they have open source, you know, big play in this environment, both under the CN CF umbrella and beyond. Give us a little bit as to, you know, where are the interesting places where you see either vendors and technology today, or opportunity to make these solutions better for users. >>So that's an interesting question, because I literally don't know where to begin. The spectrum is so so broad, it's all start off with a joke on this, right? You cannot buy that helps. But the vendors were sure try and sell it to you. So it's kind of where you know, the battle is is raging on its getting foothold into an organization. Um, and you see that? You know, you see companies like, how is she doing that? Um, they started out with open source tooling that kind of move into the enterprise realm. Um, you solve the issues that enterprises usually have, and that's what the club defenders will trying to you as although you know, the kind of kick start you with a free service and then move you up into their their stack. And that's you know, that's where Cloud native is kind of risky because the landscape is so fragmented, it is really hard to figure out. Okay, this tool, it actually solves my use case versus this one doesn't. But again, it's in the ecosystem in this ecosystem already, so let's let's still use it just because it's easier. Um, but it does boil the disk a lot of the discussion down into. Basically, it's a friction. How much effort does it take to start using something? Because that's where and that's basically the issues enterprises are trying to solve. It's around friction, and it used to be friction around, you know, buying servers and then kind of being stuck with him for 4 to 5 years. But now it is the vendor lock in where people in organizations have to make tough decisions. You know, what ecosystems am I going to buy into it? It's It's also where a lot of the multi cloud marketing comes from on the way down to get you into a specific ecosystem on your end companies kind of filling that gap, helping you manage that complexity and how she corpus is one of those examples in my book that help you manage that multi cloud ah challenge. So but yeah, But it is all part of that discussion around friction. >>Yeah, and I guess I would start if you say, as you said, it is such a broad spectrum out there. If you look in the developer tooling marketplace is, there's lots of people that have, you know, landscapes out there. So CN cf even has a great landscape. And you know, things like Security, you no matter wherever I am and everywhere that I am. And there's a lot of effort to try to make sure that I can have something that spans across the environment. Of course, Security, you know, huge issue in general. And right now, Cohen, 19. The global pandemic coming on has been, you know, putting a spotlight on it even more. We know shared responsibility models where security needs to be. Data is at the center of what we're talking about when we've been talking for years about companies going through their transformation, I hadn't talked about, you know, digital transformation. What that means is, at the end of the day, you need to be data driven. So there's lots of companies, you know, big movement and things like ml ops. How can I actually harness my data? I said one of the things I think we got out of the whole big data wave. It was that bit flip from, Oh my God, their data everywhere. And maybe that's a challenge for me. It now becomes an opportunity and often times somewhere that I can have new value or even new business models that we can create around data. So, you know, data security on and everyone is modernizing. So, you know, worry a bit that there is sometimes, you know, cloud native washing. You know, just like everything else. It's, you know, cloud enabled. You know, ai ready from an infrastructure standpoint, you know, how much are you actually leveraging Cloud native? The bar, we always said, is, you know, if you're putting something in your data center, how does that compare against what I could get if I'm doing aws azure or Google type of environment? So I have seen good progress over the last couple of years in what we used to call it Private Cloud. And now it's more Ah, hybrid environment or multi cloud. And it looks and acts and is managed much more like the public cloud at a lot of that. Is that driver for developers? So you know Palmer, you know, developers, developers, developers, you know, absolutely. He was right as to how important that is. And one of the things I've been a little bit hardened at is it used to be. You talked about the enterprise and while the developers were off in the corner and, you know, we need to think about them and help enable them. But now, like the Dev Ops movement, we're trying to break down those silos. You know, developers are much more in the workflow. When I look at tools out there not only get hub, you know, you talked about Hashi, you know, get lab answerable and others. Often they have ways to have nothing to developers. The product owners and others all get visibility into it. Because if you can get, you know, people in the organization all accessing the same work stream the way that they need to have it there. There's goodness there. So I guess final question I have for you is you know, what advice do we have for practitioners themselves? Often, the question is, how do I get from where I've been? So where I'm going, This whole discussion of Cloud native is you know, we spent more than a decade talking about cloud, and it was often the kind of where in the movement and the like So what? I want to tee up with cloud native is discussion, really for the next decade. And you know, if I'm, you know, a c i o If I'm in, i t how do I make sure that I'm ready for these next opportunities while still managing? You know what I have in my own environment. >>So that kind of circles back to where we started this discussion, right? Cloud native and Dev ops and a couple of those methodologies they're not actually about the tooling. They are about what to do with them. Can you leverage them to achieve a goal? And so my biggest advice is Look for that goal. First, have something toward towards because if you have a problem, the solution will present itself. Um, and I'm not saying go look for a problem. The problems, they're already It's a matter of, um, you know, articulating that problem in a way that your developers will actually understand what to do. And then they will go and find the tools that are needed to solve that particular problem. And so we turn this around in a sense that so finally, we are at a point where we can have business problems. Actually, solved by I t in a way that doesn't require, you know, millions of upfront investment or, you know, consultants from an outside company. Your developers are now able to start solving those problems, and it will maybe take a while. They may need some outside help Teoh to figure some stuff out, But the point is, we can now use you know, these cloud resource is these cloud native services in such a small, practical way that we can actually start solving these business problems in a real way. >>Yeah, you actually, earlier this year I've done a series of interviews getting ready for this type of environment. You know, one of the areas I spent a bunch of time trying to dig in. And to be frank, understand has been server lists. So, you know, people very excited about server lists. You know, one of the dynamics always is, You know, everything we're talking about with containers and kubernetes driving them to think about that. I always looked as container ization was kind of moving up the stack in making infrastructure easier. The work for applications, but something like serverless it comes, top down. It's it's more of not the tooling, but how do I build those applications in those environments and not need to think at least as much about the infrastructure? So server lists Absolutely something we will cover, you know, containers, kubernetes what I'm looking for. Always love practitioners love to somebody. You you've been, you know, in that end, user it before startups. Absolutely. We'll be talking to as well as other people you know, in the ecosystem that you want to help, have discussions, have debates. You know, we don't have, you know, a strong. You know, this is the agenda that we have for cloud native, but I really want to help facilitate the dialogue. So I'll give you a final word here. Anything You know, what's exciting you these days when you talk to your peers out there, you know, in general, you know, it can be some tools, even though we understand tools are only a piece of it or any other final tips that you have in this market >>space. Well, I want to kind of go go forward on on your statement earlier about server lists without calling, You know, any specific serverless technology out there specifically, but you're looking at those technologies you'll see, But we're now able to solve those business problems. Um, without actually even needing I t right. So no code low code platforms are very adjacent to you to do serverless movement. Um, and that's where you know, that's what really excites me of this at this point, simply because, you know, we no longer need actual hardcore engineering as a trait Teoh use i t to move the needle forward. And that's what I love about the cloud native movement that it used to be hard. And it's getting simpler in a way also more complex in a way. What we're paying someone else Teoh to solve those issues. So I'm excited to see where you know, no code low code survivalism those the kinds of technologies will take us in the next decade. >>Absolutely wonderful. When you have technology that makes it more globally accessible There, obviously, you know, large generational shifts happening in the workforce. You Thank you so much for joining us, >>actually, Sue. >>All right. And I guess the final call to action really is We are looking for those guests out there, so, you know, practitioners, startups people that have a strong viewpoint. You can reach out to me. My emails just stew Stu at silicon angle dot com where you can hit me up on the twitters. I'm just at stew on there. Also. Eso thank you so much for joining us. Planning to do these in General Weekly cadence. You'll find the articles that go along with these on silicon angle dot com. Of course. All the video on the cube dot net I'm stew minimum in and love to hear more about your cloud Native insights >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

>>Ly from San Diego, California. It's the cube covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back to San Diego. I'm Stewman and my cohost is Justin Warren. And coming back to our program, one of our cube alumni and be coach hair of this coupon cloud native con prion Lyles who is also a senior staff engineer at VMware. Brian, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me on. And do you want to have a shout out of course to a Vicky Chung who is your coach hair. She has been doing a lot of work. She came to our studio ahead of it to do a preview and unfortunately she's supposed to be sitting here but a little under the weather. And we know there was nothing worse than, you know, doing travel and you know, fighting an illness. But she's a little sick today, but um, uh, she knows that we'll, we'll, we'll still handle it. Alright, so Brian, 12,000 people here in attendance. >>Uh, more keynotes than most of us can keep a track of. So, first of all, um, congratulations. Uh, things seem to be going well other than maybe, uh, choosing the one day of the year that it rained in, uh, you know, San Diego, uh, which we we can't necessarily plan for. Um, I'd love you to bring us a little bit insight as to some of the, the, the goals and the themes that, uh, you know, you and Vicki and the, the, the, the, the community we're, we're looking at for, for this coupon. So you're right, let's help thousand people and so many sponsors and so many ideas and so many projects, it's really hard to have a singular theme. But a few months ago we came up with was, well, if, if Kubernetes in this cloud software make us better or basically advances, then we can do more advanced things. >>And then our end users can be more advanced. And it was like a three pong thing. And if you look, go back and look at our keynotes, he would say, Hey, we're looking at our software. Hey, we're looking at an amazing things that we did, especially cat by that five G keynote yesterday. And the notice that we had, it was me talking about how we could look forward and then, and then notice we had in talking about security and then we had Walmart and target talking about how they're using it and, and that was all on purpose. It's trying to tell a story that people can go back and look at. Yeah, I liked the, the message that you were, you were trying to put out there around how we need to make Kubernetes a little bit easier, but how we need to change the way that we talk about it as well. >>So maybe you could, uh, fill us in a little bit more. Let's say, unfortunately, Kubernetes is not going to get an easier, um, that's like saying we wish Linux was easier to use. Um, Linux has a huge ABI and API interface. It's not going to get easier. So what we need to do is start doing what we did with Linux and Linux is the Colonel. Um, this should be some Wars happened over the years and you notice some distributions are easier to use. Another. So if you use the current fedora or you the current Ubuntu or even like mint, it's getting really easy to use. And I'm not suggesting that we need Kubernetes distributions. That's actually the furthest thing, but we do need to work on building our ecosystem on top of Kubernetes because I mentioned like CIS CD, um, observability security audit management and who knows what else we need to start thinking about those things as pretty much first-class items. >>Just as important as Kubernetes. Kubernetes is the Colonel. Yeah. Um, in the keynotes, there's, as you said, there's such a broad landscape here. Uh, uh, I've heard some horror stories that people like, Oh, Hey, where do I start? And they're like, Oh, here's the CNCF landscape. And they're like, um, I can't start there. There's too much there. Uh, you, you picked out and highlighted, um, some of the lesser known pieces. Uh, th there's some areas that are a little bit mature. What, what are some of the more exciting things that you've seen going on right now, your system and this ecosystem? >> Um, I'm not even gonna. I highlighted open policy agent as a, as an interesting product. I don't know if it's the right answer, actually. I kind of wish there was a competitor just so I could determine if it was the right answer. >>But things like OPA and then like open telemetry, um, two projects coming together and having even bigger goals. Uh, let's make a severability easy. What I would also like to see is a little bit more, more maturity and the workflow space. So, you know, the CII and CD space. And I know with Argo and flux merging to Argo flux, uh, that's very interesting. And just a little bit of a tidbit is that I, I also co-chair the CNCF SIG application delivery, uh, special interest group, but, uh, we're thinking about that, that space right there. So I would love to see more in the workflow space, but then also I would like to see more security tools and not just old school check, check, check, but, um, think about what Aqua security is doing. And I'm, I don't know if they're now Snick or S, I don't know how to say it, but, um, there's, there's companies out there rethinking security. >>Let's do that. Yeah. I spoke to Snick a couple of days ago and it's, I'm pretty sure it's sneak. Apparently it stands for, so now you know, which that was news to me that, so now I know interesting. But they have a lot of good projects coming up. Yeah. You mentioned that the ecosystem and that you like that there's competitors for particular projects to kind of explore which way is the right way of doing things. We have a lot of exhibitors here and we have a lot of competitors out there trying to come into this ecosystem. It seems to actually be growing even bigger. Are we going to see a period of consolidation where some of these competing options, we decided that actually no, we don't want to use that. We want to go over here. I mean according to crossing the chasm, yes, but we need to figure out where we are on the maturity chart for, for the whole ecosystem. >>So I think in a healthy, healthy ecosystem, people don't succeed and products go away, but then what we see is in maybe six months or a year or two later, those same founders are out there creating new products. So not everyone's going to win on their first shot. So I think that's fine because, you know, we've all had failures in the past, but we're still better for those failures. Yeah, I've heard it described as a kind of Cambridge and explosion at the moment. So hopefully we don't get an asteroid that comes in and, uh, and hopefully it is out cause yeah. Um, one of the things really, really noticed is, uh, if you went back a year or even two years ago, we were talking about very much the infrastructure, the building blocks of what we had. Uh, I really noticed front and center, especially in the keynote here, talking a lot about the workload. >>You're talking about the application. We're talking about, uh, you know, much more up the stack and uh, from kind of that application, uh, uh, piece down, even, uh, some friends of mine that were new to this ecosystem was like, I don't understand what language they're talking. I'm like, well, they're talking to the app devs. That's why, you know, they're not speaking to you. Is that, was that intentional? >> Well, I mean for me it is because I like to speak to the app devs and I realized that infrastructure comes and goes. I've been doing this for decades now and I've seen the rise of Cisco as, as a networking platform and I've seen their ups and downs. I've worked in security. But what I know is fundamentals are, are just that. And I would like to speak to the developers now because we need to get back to the developers because they create the value. >>I mean the only people who win at selling via our selling Kubernetes are vendors of Kubernetes. So, you know, I work for one and then there's the clouds and then there's other companies as well. So the thing that stays constant are people are building applications and ultimately if Kubernetes and the cloud native landscape can't take care of those application developers remember happened, remember, um, OpenStack, and not in like a negative way, but remember OpenStack, it got to be so hard that people couldn't even focus on what gave value. >> Unlike obvious fact leaves on it. It's still being used a lot in, in service providers and so on. So technology never really goes away completely. It just may fade off and live in a corner and then we move on to whatever's the next newest and greatest thing and then end up reinventing ourselves and having to do all of the same problems again. >>It feels a little bit like that with sometimes the Kubernetes way where haven't we already sold this? Linux is still here, Linux is still, and Linux is still growing. I mean Linux is over Virgin five right now and Linux is adapting and bringing in new things in a Colonel and moving things out to the user land. Kubernetes needs to figure out how to do that as well. Yeah, no Brian, I think it's a great point. You know, I'm an infrastructure guy and we know the only reason infrastructure exists is to serve up that application. What Matt managed to the business, my application, my data. Um, you and your team have some open source projects that you're involved in. Maybe give us a little bit about right? So oxen is a, so let me tell you the quick story. Joe Beda and I talked about how do we approach developers where they are. >>And one thing came up really early in that conversation was, well, why don't we just tell developers where things are broken? So come to find out using Kubernetes object model and a little bit of computer science, like just a tiny little bit. You can actually build this graph where everything is connected and then all you need to do then is determine if for any type of object, is it working or is it not working? So now look at this. Now I can actually show you what's broken and what's not broken. And what makes octane a little bit different is that we also wrapped it with a dashboard that shows everything inside of a Kubernetes cluster. And then we made it extensible. And just, just a crazy thing. I made a plugin API one weekend because I'm like, Oh, that would be kind of cool. And just at this conference alone, nine to 10 people to walk up to me and said, Oh, um, we use oxygen and we use your plugin system. >>And now we've done things that I can't imagine, and I think I might've said this, I know I've said it somewhere recently, but the hallmark of a good platform is when people start creating things you could never imagine on it. And that's what Linux did. That's what Kubernetes is doing. And octane is doing it in the small right now. So kudos to me and me really and my team that's really exciting. So fry, Oakton, Coobernetti's and Tansu both are seven sided. Uh, was, was that, that, that uh, uh, moving to, uh, to, to eight, uh, so no marketing. Okay. And I don't profess to understand what marketing is. Someone just named it. And I said, you know what, I'm a developer. I don't really mind w as long as you can call it something, that's fine. I do like the idea that we should evolve the number of platonic solids. >>There's another answer too. So if you think about what seven is, it, um, people were thinking ahead and said, well, someone could actually take that and use it as another connotation. So I was like, all right, we'll just get out of that. That's why it's called octane, but still nautical theme. Okay, great. Brian. So much going on. You know, even outside of this facility, there's things going on. Uh, any hidden gems that just the, you know, our audience that's watching or people that we'll look back at this event and say, Hey, you know, here's some cool little things there. I mean, they hit the Twitters, I'm sure they'll see the therapy dogs and whatnot, but you know, for the people geeking out, some of those hidden gems that you'd want to share. Um, some of the hidden gems or I'll, I'll throw up to, um, watch what these end-user companies are doing and watch what, like the advanced companies like Walmart and target and capital one are doing. >>I just think there's a lot of lessons to be learned and think about this. They have a crazy amount of money. They're actually investing time in this. It might be a good idea. And other hidden gyms are, are companies that are embracing the, the extension model of Kubernetes through custom resource definitions and building things. So the other day I had the tests on, on the stage, and they're not the only example of this, but running my sequel and Coobernetti's and it pretty much works all well, let's see what we can run with this. So I think that there's going to be a lot more companies that are going to invest in this space and, and, and actually deliver on these types of products. And, and I think that's a very interesting space. Yeah. We, we spoke to Bloomberg just before and uh, we talked to the tests, we spoke to Subaru from the test yesterday. >>Uh, seeing how people are using Kubernetes to build these systems, which can then be built upon themselves. Right. I think that's, that's probably for me, one of the more interesting things is that we end up with a platform and then we build more platforms on top of it. But we, we're creating these higher levels of abstraction, which actually gets us closer to just being able to do the work that we want to do as developers. I don't need to think about how all of the internals work, which again to your keynote today is like, I don't want to write machine code and I just want to solve this sort of business problem. If we can embed that into the, into this ecosystem, then it just makes everyone's lives much, much easier. So you basically, that is my secret. I'm really, I know people hate it for attractions and they say they will, but no one hates an abstraction. >>You don't actually turn the crank in your motor to make the car run. You press the accelerator and it goes. Yeah. Um, so we need to figure out the correct attractions and we do that through iteration and failure, but I'm liking that people are pushing the boundaries and uh, like Joe beta and Kelsey Hightower said is that Kubernetes is a platform of platforms. It is basically an API for writing API APIs. Let's take advantage of that and write API APIs. All right. Well, Brian, thank you. Thank Vicky. Uh, please, uh, you know, share, congratulations to the team for everything done here. And while you might be stepping down as, or we do hope you'll come and join us back on the cube at a future event. No, I enjoyed talking to you all, so thank you. Alright, thanks so much Brian for Justin Warren we'll be back with more of our water wall coverage. CubeCon cloud native con here in San Diego. Thanks for watching the queue.

>> Live, from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS re:Invent, 2018. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and, their ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, live here in Las Vegas, for AWS, Amazon Web Services, re:Invent, 2018. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Dave, our sixth year covering this event. We've been to all the re:Invents, except for the original one, watched the progress of cloud computing. And it's a lot of new things happening, more compute, more power. We're here with our special guest, RaeJeanne Skillern, who's also known as RJ inside Intel. Vice-President of Data Center Group and the General Manager of the Cloud Service Provider Platform Group at Intel. Good to see you again. >> Nice to see you again. >> The headline on silkenangle dot com right now, "In a blockbuster move, "Amazon jumps into data center with both feet". Which really validates kind of some of the commentary we've been seeing in the queue for many, many years. And our analysts and you guys are involved in the Data Center. Data Center's still going to be a big part of computing. It's not going away. That's your business. >> Yes. >> And the cloud service provider, which is also growing. So, take a minute. >> It is growing, I've been personally covering the public cloud at Intel for a decade. And, when I started I'm not sure I had any concept how big this was going to be. And the one thing that I'm positive about, is we're just still at the beginning. Because every use case you see, all the development, all the IOT, all the business transformation, we're just starting, right. This is a good place to be, but there's more coming. And, if I look at just 2018, I'm a little competitive at work, but we were to proud to announce earlier this year, the end of the summer, that the cloud is now 43% of the Data Center Group's revenue. So, coming from when I started, 10% or something like that little, now to be the number one contributor. And, we, in the first half of the year, had a 43% a year revenue growth. This industry is booming. And I wish I could say it was my hard doing, but I mean, if you come to an event like this, you know why it's growing. >> And the cham is increasing in the total market availability with the cloud, is requiring more and more horsepower. >> Yes. >> You've got IOT Edge, you've got the Data Center, you got the cloud, and software is being written, specifically to take advantage of something. So, huge market opportunity, still. >> Yes. >> What are some of the innovations? Take us through a little bit of your mindset on how you guys are attacking this growth, surface area of the market, starting to see specialized things, general purpose, compute is not going away, storage, networking, still very important. You've got FTGAs out there. I mean, amazing amount of opportunities, with innovations. >> You know, you hit so much of it, and I really agree with some of the comments you made. It started off for us, with silicon technology. But, what a lot of people don't know is, we have core computes, network, storage, FPGAs, purpose built accelerators, and we can create custom aesics for any one of our customers. We also have a unique ability to not only just customize, uniquely, but you talked about the many different use cases from Edge to Data Center, it's because every workload demands a different set of technology capability. If you want true optimization at the TCO, per TCO level. And so that's why it's so important for us to work with customers like Amazon, not just to customize one SKU, but many SKUs. We are, and I was surprised at this number, out of our latest Xeon processor, the Intel Xeon scalable processors, there's actually 54 instances, on just that one CPU generation alone, and 51 of those, are from a custom CPU, that were tailored for unique workloads and instance types. So, that's part of it, but you also talked about the software. And, that's another thing, I think people think Intel's the hardware company. OK, we make hardware, we're a huge software company, thousands of engineers. And, what I love about my job, is I built a team and call them the Cloud Ninjas, but they're software and hardware engineers, that go onsite with customers. They, whether it's performance tuning and optimization, or we are co-creating cloud services. New cloud services, with our customers, that innovation, up and down the stack, that's where real innovation can happen. Two heads together, not just one. (laughs) >> So the cloud is now the number one consumer of your technologies. >> Yes. >> There are a lot of misconceptions early on about the cloud. Everybody thought, okay, the cloud is going to be just one big cloud. It's actually quite diverse. It's global in scale, it's a services business, which has always been sort of fragmented and global, despite Amazon's dominance in infrastructure service. The Data Center itself, the players are kind of consolidating, which is kind of interesting. So, how has cloud affected the way in which you guys look at the market, go to market, everybody else thought everything was going to be standard off the shelf components, in the early days of cloud. >> No. >> Now you're driving towards customization. >> No. >> So what's happening there, what are the big ideas. >> I think we've learned a lot along the way, you're right. One of the things, I mean, these cloud service providers are pushing me off the road map. They want more than we can deliver, so that's where we bring so much at hand to do about it. But, I'd say while a lot of big players are getting bigger, the market is still really in a healthy way diversified. The Super Seven, as we call them, the world's largest, they're growing fast, about 35% around the world. The next wave around the world are growing almost as fast, about 25, 27%. Consumer SAS, has been, Twitters, and Facebooks, and Ubers, right, has been a large part of the cloud. It's now 50/50 with business. And they're both growing at the same categories going forwards, so you're going to see the diversity. Not just big players, but also small. Not just consumers, but business services. And then that's spanning a lot of global growth, and a lot of, if you see the wall of logos in any Amazon presentation, it's because they have partners all over the world. >> RaeJeanne, I want to get your perspective. I talked about this a couple years ago on theCUBE, about the power law of distribution of cloud providers, the top of the head is the big guys, then kind of narrows down. But then I was predicting a cloud service provider market was going to expand and I want to get your thoughts cause that's kind of happening now, you're kind of saying. But I want to get specific on this. You got core cloud, Amazon's of the world. Then you've got hybrid cloud, kind of Data Center. Then you've got the business cloud, business SAS. >> Business SAS. >> Sales force, Twitter, you mentioned those guys. >> Uh huh. >> They run clouds. Enterprises are now going to be cloudified, with commonality. >> Multi-cloud road. >> This is changing the nature of the business. Do you see it that way, talk about this business cloud, it's not competing with core cloud, it's just an expansionary. >> It's so interesting because there is certainly some competition or cannibalization within the cloud. But what I tend to see is, whichever part of this, because you'll hear a Business SAS company, some of it's running in the cloud, some of it's running on their own premises. They're doing that for a reason and both are growing. And then you talk about infrastructure service, but what really happens, especially we another rise moves their business into the cloud, there is just some part of it, just moved A to B, but what we're finding is about 30% of it is TAM expansive, because there are things when you move to an Amazon, or you move to another cloud service provider, take a mature SAS provider, they're just things that they can do that you never would have been able to do in your own IT shop. So, that's driving TAM expansion on top of it. That's also creating a lot of new market entry points, for new businesses to come in and innovate around. Security offerings, verticalized offerings, geo-based specialized offerings. So, yes, there's some friendly competition, but even when I ask somebody who would say, they might be the little challenger to a big infrastructure service player, they say but you know what, we actually get so much business by working with them too, it's hard for me to say, are they competition or a partner, right. That's the industry we live in. >> Co-creation, you mentioned that earlier, a big part of it. >> And the other big TAM expander is you've got the data, you've got AI, machine learning. >> Yes. >> You've got the cloud for scale and then you've got Edge. >> Yeah. >> These are not, it's not a zero sum game, where you're moving stuff from the Data Center into the cloud, these are all incremental. >> New. All new. >> So what are you seeing there? >> Yeah, I'm really excited about the Edge. For me, it kind of feels like that next, uncharted frontier, everybody's investing, everybody's doing amazing things. We're getting the 5G out, we're getting better technologies, we're learning how to store data, and move it faster, quicker, and cheaper. We're getting set up, but the use cases are just yet to be really fully defined. And I'll be honest, when I look at my market modeling, over the next five to 10 years, I always put a little disclaimer, this does not comprehend what's going to happen when billions of devices come online, when we activate. So I think when people say, it's a cloud, it's been going so fast it's going to just slow down. Why? Because innovation's not stopping. >> I think you hit the nail on a point we try to clarify on theCUBE here, is that a lot of people are misunderstanding what a cloud is, and about cloud service providers. As it grows, it's a rising tide floats all boats, so everyone tries to squint through, they're winning and a market share there. It's a different game changing, so that's a great point. I want to, as we get ready to end this segment here, give you a chance to talk about the relationship with Intel. You guys, again, cloud service provider is growing. Big part of your business. But you guys have been working with Amazon, for a long time, talk about the relationship between Intel and AWS. >> Yeah it is, it's a privilege, to be able to. The folks at a company like Amazon, and specifically the ones at Amazon I work with, they have the ability, obviously, to track some of the most amazing talent in the industry. And these people move fast. And, they have a lot of choice. You can either be there with them, ahead of them, and do the customization and differentiate them, and give them what they need. Or, they're going to leave you in the dust. So, I'd like to say we have a great partnership, because they've given us the honor over 12 years. We have so many, from the Data Center, to the Edge, the car, the racer car, deep lines. So many things we're doing together, Stage Maker, Machine and Deep Learning. But it's a, if we slow down, even for a bit, we're going to get left behind. So my job is to just keep running and trying to get ahead of them. And every time I think I get there, they come and poof. But, we're working together. It's a great, challenging partnership. But one that I can guarantee there's better innovation, from Intel, coming out of it, because of getting the opportunity to work with Amazon. >> And you guys are contributing to them too. It's a good win, win scenario. >> I believe so. They've said some really nice things about us, so, about our processing technologies. Our products, seven generations of our products, we're in every availability zone, every instance frame. We've got a great position. >> Well, congratulations on the business performance, I love the Cloud Service Provider expansion, love the Data Center focus, that's really relevant. And acknowledging by Amazon, that's good news to see. And, just stuff. Thank you guys for your partnership with theCUBE. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Here at theCUBE, Intel Cube. Intel is a big sponsor of theCUBE, we really appreciate that. I'm John with Dave Vallante. Stay with us for more AWS coverage re:Invent, our sixth year in a row, covering all the action. All the value being created. Stay tuned for more after this short break. (techno music)

(lively music) >> Hello, and welcome to this special CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, founder of SiliconANGLE Media, co-host of theCUBE. We are here in our Palo Alto Studio to have a conversation around cloud computing, multi-cloud, hybrid cloud, the changes going on in the IT industry and for businesses across the globe as impacted by cloud computing, data, AI. All that's coming together, and a lot of people are trying to figure out how to architect their solution to scale globally but also take care of their businesses, not just cutting costs for information technologies, but delivering services that scale and benefit the businesses and ultimately their customers, the end users. I'm here with a very special guest, Donnie Berkholz, who's the VP of IT services delivery at CWT, Carlson Wagonlit Travel. Also the program chair of the Open Source summit, part of the Linux Foundation, formerly an analyst, a great friend of theCUBE. Donnie, great to see you. Thanks for joining us today. >> Well, thanks for having me on the show. I really appreciate it. >> So we've been having a lot of conversations around, obviously, cloud. We've been there, watching it, from day one. I know you have been covering it as an analyst. Part of that cloud ought to go back to 2007, '08 time frame roughly speaking, you know, even before that with Amazon. Just the massive growth certainly got everyone's attention. IBM once called Amazon irrelevant. Now going full cloud with buying Red Hat for billions and billions of dollars at a 63% premium. Open Source has grown significantly, and now cloud absolutely is the architectural linchpin for companies trying to change how they do business, gather more efficiencies, all built on the ethos of DevOps. That is now kind of going mainstream. So I want to get your thoughts and talk about this across a variety of touchpoints. One is what people are doing in your delivering services, IT services for CWT, and also trying to get positioned for the future. And then Open Source. You're on the Open Source program chair. Open Source driving all these benefits, now with IBM buying Red Hat, you've seen the commercialization of Open Source at a whole nother level which is causing a lot of conversation. So tell us what you're doing and what CWT is about and your role at the company. >> Absolutely, thank you. So CWT, we're in the middle of this journey we call CWT 3.0, which is really one about how do we take the old school green screens that you've seen when you've got travel agents or airline agents booking travel and bring people into the picture and blend together people with technology. So I joined about a year and a half ago to really help push things forward from the perspective of DevOps, because what we came to realize here was we can't deliver quickly and iterate quickly without the underlying platforms that give us the kind of agility that we need without the connections across a lot of our different product groups that led us, again, to iterate on the right things from the perspective of our customers. So I joined a year and a half ago. We've made a lot of strides since then in modernizing many of our technology platforms. The way I think about it here, it's a large enterprise. We've got hundreds of different applications. We've got many, many different product teams, and everything is on a spectrum. We've got some teams that are on the bleeding edge. Not even the leading edge, but I'd say the bleeding edge, trying out the very latest things that come out, experimenting with brand new Open Source tools, with brand new cloud offerings to see, can we incorporate that as quickly as possible so we can innovate faster than our competitors? Whether those are the traditional competitors or some of the new software companies coming into things from that angle. And then on the other end of the spectrum, we've got teams who are taking a much more conservative approach, and saying, "Let's wait and see what sticks "before we pick it up." And the fortunate thing, I think, about a company at the scale we are, is that we can have some of those groups really innovating and pushing the needle, and then other groups who can wait and see which parts stick before we start adopting those at scale. >> And so you've got to manage the production kind of stability versus kind of kicking the tires for the new functionality. So I've got to ask you first. Set up the architecture there. Are you guys on premise with cloud hybrid? Are you in the cloud-native? Do you have multiple clouds? Could you just give a sense of how you're deploying specifically with cloud? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think just like anything else, it's a spectrum of all we see here. There's a lot of different products. Some of them have been built cloud-native. They're using those serverless functions as service technologies from scratch. Brought in some leaders from Amazon to lead some of that drive here. They brought in a lot of good thinking, a lot of good culture, a lot of new perspective to the technologies we're adopting as a company that's not traditionally been a software company. But that is more and more so every day. So we've got some of that going on as completely cloud-native. We've got some going on that's more, I would say, hybrid cloud, where we're spanning between a public cloud environment back to our data centers, and then we've got some that are different applications across multiple different public clouds, because we're not in any one place right now. We're putting things in the best place to do the job. So that's very much the approach that we take, and it's one that, you know, back when I was in my analyst's world, as one of my colleagues called it, the best execution venue. What's the best place? What's the right place to do the right kind of task? We incorporate what are the best technologies we can adopt to help us differentiate more quickly, and where does the data live? What's the data gravity look like? Because we can't be shipping data back and forth. We can't have tons of transactions going back and forth all the time between different public clouds or between a public cloud and one of our data centers. So how do we best account for that when we're architecting what our applications should look like, whether they're brand new ones or whether they're ones we're in the middle of modernizing. >> Great, thanks for sharing, that's great, so yeah, I totally see that same thing. People put, you know, where the best cloud for the app, and if you're Microsoft Shop, you use Azure. If you want to kick the tires on Amazon, there's good roles for that, so we're seeing a lot of those multiple clouds. But while I've got you on the line here, I know you've been an analyst. I want you to just help me define something real quick because there's always kind of confusion between hybrid cloud and multi-cloud. Certainly the multi-cloud, we're getting a lot of hype on that. We're seeing with Kubernetes, with stateful applications versus stateless. You're seeing some conversations there. Certainly on Open Source, that's top of the agenda. Donnie, explain for folks watching the difference between hybrid cloud and multi-cloud, because there's some nuances there, and some people have different definitions. How do you guys look at that? Cause you have multiple clouds, but some aren't necessarily running a workload across clouds yet because of latency issues, so define what hybrid means to you guys and what multi-cloud means to you. >> All right, yeah, I think for us, hybrid cloud would be something where it's about integrating an on-prem workload off a more traditional workload with something in a public cloud environment. It's really, hybrid cloud to me is not two different public clouds working together or even the same application in two different public clouds. That's something a little bit different, and that's where you start to get, I think, into a lot of the questions of what is multi-cloud? We've seen that go through a lot of different transitions over the past decade or so. We've seen a lot of different, you know, vendors, going out there thinking they could sell multi-cloud management that, you know, panned out at different levels of success. I think for at least a decade, we've been talking about ideas like can we do cloud bursting? Has that ever really worked in practice? And I think it's almost as rare as a unicorn. You know, on-prem for the cost efficiencies and then we burst the cloud for the workload. Well, you know, to this day, I've never seen anything that gives you 100% functionality and 100% performance comparability between an on-prem workload and public cloud workload. There always seems to be some kind of difference, and this is a conversation that, I think, Randy Bias has actually been a great proponent of it's not just about the API compatibility. It's not just, you know, can I run Azure in their data centers or in mine? It's about what is the performance difference look like? What does the availability difference look like? Can I support that software in my data center as well as the engineers at Microsoft or at Amazon or at Google or wherever else they're supporting it today? Can I keep it up and running as well? Can I keep it performing as well? Can I find problems as quickly? And that's where it comes to the question of how do we focus on our differentiators and let the experts focus on theirs. >> That's a great point about Randy Bias. Love that great API debate. I was looking at some of that footage we had years ago. But this brings up a good point that I want to get your reaction to, because, you know, a lot of vendors going out there, saying, "Oh, our cloud's this. "We've got all this stuff going on," and there's a lot of hype and a lot of posturing and positioning. The great thing about cloud is that you really can't fake it until you make it. It's got to be working, right? So when you get into the kind of buying into the cloud. You say, "Okay, great, we're going to do some cloud," and maybe you get some cloud architects together. They say, "Okay, here's what it means to us. "In each environment, we'll have to, you know, "understand what that means and then go do it." The reality kind of kicks in, and this is what I'd like to get your reaction to. What is the realities when you say, "Okay, "I want to go to cloud," either for pushing the envelope and/or moving solid workloads that are in production into the cloud. What is the impact on the network, network security, and application performance? Because at the end of the day, those are going to be impacted. Those three areas come up a lot in conversations when all of the glam and all the bloom is off the rose, those are the things that are impacted. What's your thoughts on how practitioners should prepare for those three areas? The network impact, network security impact, and application performance? >> Yeah, I think preparation is exactly the right word there of how do we get the people we have up to speed? And how do we get more and more out of that kind of project mindset and into much more of the product mindset and whether that product is customer-facing or whether that product is some kind of infrastructure or platform product? That's the kind of thinking we're trying to have going into it of how do we get our people, who, you know, may run a Ci Cd pipeline, may run an on-prem container platform, may even be responsible for virtualization, may be responsible for on-prem networks or firewalls or security. How do we get them up to speed and turn them into real software engineers? That's a multi-year journey. That's not something that happens overnight. You can't bring in a team of consultants to fix that problem for you and say, "Oh, well, we came in and implemented it, "and now it's yours, and we walk out the door." It's no longer that, you know, build and operate mindset that you could take a little bit more with on-prem. Because everything is defined as code. And if you don't know how to deal with code, you're going to be in a real rough spot the next time you have to make a change to that stuff that that team of consultants came in and implemented for you. So I think it's turned into a much more long-term approach, which is very, very healthy for technology and for technology companies as a whole of how do we think about this long-term and in a sustainable way, think about scaling up our people. What do those training paths look like? What do those career paths look like? So we can decide, you know, how many people do we want certified? What kind of certifications should they have or equivalent skill sets? I remember hearing not too long ago that I think it was Capital One had over 10,000 people who were AWS certified, which is an enormously large number to think about, but that's the kind of transitions that we've been making as we become more and more cloud-native and cloud by default, is getting the right people. The people we have today trained up in these new kinds of skill sets instead of assuming that's something we can have some team fly in from magic land and implement and then fly away again afterwards. >> That's great, Don, thanks for sharing that insight. I also want to get your thoughts on the Open Source summit, but before we get there, I've got to ask you a question around some of the trends we've been seeing. Early on at DevOps we saw this together of the folks doing the hard work in the early pioneering days, where you saw the developers really getting closer to the front lines. They were becoming part of the business conversation. In the old world of IT, "Okay, here's our strategy. "Consolidate this, load some virtual machines," you know, "Get all this stuff up and running." The business decisions would then trickle down to the tech folks, then with the DevOps revolution, that's now cloud computing and all things, you know, IoT and everything else happening where the developers and the engineering side of it and the applications are on the front lines. They're in more of the business conversations, so I have to ask you. When you're at CWT, what are some of the business drivers and conversations that you guys are having with executive management around choices? Are they business drivers? Do you see an order of preference around agility? The transformation value for either customers or employees, compliance and security, are the top ones that people talk about generally. Of those business drivers, which ones do you guys see the most that are part of iterating through the architecture and ultimately the environment that you deploy? >> Yeah, I think as part of what I mentioned earlier, that we're on this journey we call CWT 3.0, and what's really new about that is bringing in speed and agility into the conversation of if we have something that we imagine as a five year transformation, how do we get to market quickly with new products so that we can start really executing and seeing the outcomes of it? So we've always had the expectations around availability, around security, around all these other factors. Those aren't going away. Instead, we're adding a new one, so we've got new conversations and a new balance to reach at an executive level of we now need a degree of speed that was not the expectation, let's say, a decade ago. It may not even have been the expectation in our industry five years ago, but is today. And so we're now incorporating speed into that balance of maybe we'll decide to very intentionally say, "We're not going to go over quite as many nine's today "so that we can be iterating more quickly on our software." Or, "We're going to invest more "in better release management approaches and tools," right? Like Canary releases, like, you know, Green-Blue releases, all these sorts of new techniques, feature flags, that sort of thing so that we can better deal with speed and better account for the risk and spread it to the smallest surface area possible. >> And you were probably doing those things also to understand the impact and look at kind of what's that's coming in that you're instrumenting in infrastructure because you don't want to have to put it out there and pray and hope that it works. Right, I mean? The old way. >> The product teams that are building it are really great and really quick at understanding about what the user experience looks like. And whether that's their Real User monitoring tools or through, you know, other tools and tricks that we may incorporate to understand what our users are doing on our tools in real time, that's the important part of this, is to shorten the iteration cycle and to understand what things look like in production. You've got to expose that back to the software engineers, to the business analysts, to the product managers who are building it or deciding what should be built in the first place. >> All right, so now that you're on the buyer's side, you've actually got people knocking on your door. "Hey, Donnie, buy my cloud. "Do this, you know, I've got all these solutions. "I've got all these tools. "I've got a toolshed full of," you know, the fool with the tool, as they say. You don't want to be that person, right? So ultimately you've got to pick an environment that's going to scale. When you look at the cloud, how do you evaluate the different clouds? You mentioned gravity or data gravity earlier. All kinds of new criteria is up there now in terms of cloud selection. You mentioned best cloud for the job. I get that. Is there certain things that you look for? Is there a list? Is there criteria on cloud selection that goes through your desk? >> Yeah, I think something that's been really healthy for me coming into the enterprise side from the analyst perspective is you get a couple of new criteria that start to rise up real quickly. You start thinking about things like what's that vendor relationship going to look like? How is the sales force? Are they willing to work with you? Are they willing to adapt to your needs? And then you can adapt back with them so you can build a really strong, healthy relationship with some of your strategic vendors, and to me, a public cloud vendor is absolutely a strategic vendor. That's one where you have to really care a lot and invest in that relationship and make sure things go well when you're sailing together, going in the same direction. And so to me, that's a little bit of a newer factor because it was easy to sit back and come in as the strategic advisor role and say, "Oh, you should go with this cloud. "You should go with that cloud "because of reasons X, Y, or Z," but that doesn't really account for a lot of things that happen behind the scenes, right? What's your sourcing and human department doing? How do they like to work with around contract, right? Will you negotiate a good MSA? All these sorts of things where you don't think about that when you're only thinking about technology and business value. You also have to think about the other, just the day to day, what does it look like? What's the blocking and tackling working with some of those strategic vendors? So you've got that to incorporate in addition to the other criteria around do they have great managed services? You know, self-service managed services that will work for your needs? For example, what do they have around data bases? What do they have around stream processing? What do they have around serverless platforms, right? Whatever it might be that suits the kinds of needs you have. Like for example, you might think about what does our business look like, and it's a graph, right? It's travelers, it's airports, it's planes, it's hotels. It's a bunch of different graphs all intersecting, and so we might imagine looking for a cloud provider that's really well-suited to processing those sorts of workloads. >> In the old days, the networking guys used to run the keys to the kingdom. Hey, you know, I'm going to rack and stack servers. I'm going to do all this stuff, but I've got to go talk to the networking guys, make sure all the routes are provisional and all that's locked down, mainly because that was a perimeter environment then. With cloud now, what's the impact of the networking? What's the role of the network? As we see DevOps notion of infrastructure as code, you've got to compute networking stores as three main pillars of all environments. Compute, check. Stores getting better. Networking, can you imagine Randy Bias? This was a big pet peeve for him. What's the role that cloud does? What's the role of the network with your cloud strategy? >> Yeah, I think something that I've seen following DevOps for the past decade or so has been that, you know, it really started as the ops doing development moved more into the developers and the ops working together and in many cases sharing roles in different ways, then incorporated, you know, QA, and incorporated product, to some extent. Most recently it's really been focused on security and how do we have that whole DevSecOps, SecDevOps thing going on. Something that's been trailing behind a little bit was network, absolutely. I had some very close friends about 10 years ago, maybe, who were getting into that, and they were the only people they knew and they only people they'd ever even heard of thinking beyond the level of using some kind of an expect script to automate your network interaction. But now I think networking as code is really starting to pick up. I mean, you look at what people are doing in public cloud environments. You look at what Open Source projects like Ansible are doing or on the new focus on network functionality. They're not alone in that. Many others are investing in that same kind of area. It's finally really starting to get up. Like for example, we have an internal DevOps Day that we run twice a year, and at the most recent one, guess who one of our speakers was? It was a network engineer talking about the kinds of automation they'd been starting to build against our network environments, not just in public cloud, but also on-premise. And so we're really investing in bringing them into our broader DevOps community, even though Net may not be in the name today. I don't think the name can ever extend to include all possible roles. But it is absolutely a big transition that more and more companies, I think, are going to see rolling along, and one that we've seen happening in public cloud externally for many, many years now. It's been inevitable that the network's going to get engaged in that automation piece. And the network teams are going to be more and more thinking about how do we focus our time in automation and on defining policy, and how do we enable the product teams to work in a self-service way, right? We set up the governance, but governance now means they can move at speed. It doesn't mean wait seven to 30 days for us to verify all of the port openings, match our requirements, and so on and so forth. That's defined up front. >> Yeah, and that's awesome, and I think that's the last leg of the stool in my opinion, and I think you nailed it. Making it operationally automation enabled, and then actually automating it. So, okay, before we get to the Open Source, one final question for you. You know, as you look at plan for the technologies around containers and microservices, what sounds a lot like networking constructs, provisioning, services. The role of stateless applications become a big part of that. As you look at those technologies, what are some of the things you're looking for and evaluating containers and microservices? And what role will that play in your environment and your job? >> I think something that we spend a lot of time focusing on is what is the day two experience going to look like? What is it going to be like? Not just to roll it out initially, but to, you know, operate on an ongoing basis, to make upgrades, to monitor it, to understand what's happening when things are going wrong, to understand, you know, the security stance we're at, right? How well are we locked down? Is everything up-to-date? How do we know that and verify it on a continuous basis instead of the, you know, older school approach of hey, we kind of do a ECI survey or an audit, you know, once a year, and that's the day we're in compliance, and then after that, we're not. Which I was just reading some stories the other day about companies saying, "Hey, there's a large percentage "of the time that you're out of compliance, "but you make sure to fix it just in time "for your quarterly surveys or scans or what have you." And so that's what we spend a lot of our time focusing on is not just the ease of installation, but the ease of ongoing operability and getting really good visibility into the security, into the health, of the underlying platforms that we're running. And in some cases, that may push us to, let's say, a cloud managed service. In some cases, we may say, "Well, that doesn't quite suit our needs." We might have some unique requirements, although I spend a lot of my time personally saying, "In most cases, we are not a snowflake, right?" We should be a snowflake where we differentiate as a company. We should not be a snowflake at the level of our monitoring tools. There's nothing unique we should really be doing in that area. So how can we make sure that we use, whether it's trusted vendors, trusted cloud providers, or trusted Open Source projects with a large and healthy community behind them to run that stuff instead of build it ourselves, 'cause that's not our forte. >> I love that. That's a great conversation I'd love to have with you another time around competitive advantage around IT which is coming back in vogue again. It hasn't been that way in awhile because of all the consolidation and outsourcing. You're seeing people really, really ramp up and say, "Wait a minute, we outsourced our core competency and IT," and now with cloud, there's a competitive advantage, so how do you balance the intellectual property that you need to build for the business and then also use the scale and agility with Open Source? So I want to move to that Open Source conversation. I think this is a good transition. Developers at the end of the day still have to build the apps and services they're going to run on these environments to add value. So Open Source has become, I won't say a professional circuit for developers. It really is become the place for developers because that's where now corporations and projects have been successful, and it's going to a whole nother level. Talk about how Open Source is changing, and specifically around it becoming a common vehicle for one, employees of companies to participate in as part of their job, and two, how it's going to a whole nother level with all this code that's flying around. You can't, you know, go dig without finding out that, you know, new TensorFlow library's been donated for Google, big code bases are being rolled in there, and still the same old success formula for Open Source is continuing to work. You're on the program chair for Open Source summit, which is part of the Linux foundation, which has been very, very successful in this modern era. How has that changed? What's going on in Open Source? And how does that help people who are trying to stand up architecture and build businesses? >> I think Open Source has gone through a lot of transitions over the past decade or so. All right, so it started, and in many ways it was driven by the end users. And now it's come back full circle so that it's again driven more and more by the end users in a way that there was a middle term there where Open Source was really heavily dominated by vendors, and it's started to come back around, and you see a lot of the web companies in particular, right? You're sort of Googles and Amazons and LinkedIns and Facebooks and Twitters, they're open sourcing tools on an almost daily basis, it feels like. I just saw another announcement yesterday, maybe the day before, about a whole set of kernel tools that I think it was Facebook had open sourced. And so you're seeing that pace just going so quickly, and you think back to the days of, for example, the Apache web server, right? Where did that come about from? It didn't come from a software vendor. It came from a coalition of end users all working together to develop the software that they needed because they felt like there's a big gap there and there's an opportunity to cooperate. So it's been really pleasing for me to see that kind of come back around full circle of now, you can hardly turn around and see a company that doesn't have some sort of Open Source program office or something along those lines where they start to develop a much more healthy approach to it. All right, the early 2000's, it was really heavy on that fear and uncertainty and doubt around Open Source. In particular by some vendors, but also a lot of uncertainty because it wasn't that common, or maybe it wasn't that visible inside of these Fortune 500 global 2000 companies. It may have been common, right? What we used to say back when I worked at RedMonk was you turned around, and you asked the database admins, you know, "Are you running MySQL? "Or are you running Postgres?" You asked the infrastructure engineers, "Are you running Linux here?" and you'll get a yes, nine times out of ten, but the CIO was the last to know. Well now, it's started to flip back around because the CIO's are seeing the business value and adopting Open Source and having a really healthy approach to it, and they're trying to kind of normalize the approach to it as a consequence to that, saying, "Look, it's awesome "that we're adopting Open Source. "We have to use this "so that we can get a competitive advantage "because every thousand lines of code we can adopt "is a thousand lines of code we don't have to write, "and we can focus on our own products instead." And then starting to balance that new model of it used to be, you know, is it buy versus built? And then Sass came around, and it's buy versus build versus rent. And now there's Open Source, and it's buy versus build versus rent versus adopt. So every one of these just shifts conversation a little bit of how do you make the right choice at the right time at the right level of the stack? >> Yeah, that's a great observation, and it's awesome insight. It feels like dumping a little bit, a lot of dumping going on in Open Source, and you worry that the flood of vendor-contributed code is the new tactic, but if you look at all the major inflection points from the web, you know, through bitcoin, which is now 10 years old this year, it all started out as organic community projects or conversations on a message board. So there's still a revolution, and I think you're right. Their script is flipping around. I love that comment about the CIO's were last to know about Open Source. I think now that might be flipping around to the CIO's will be last to know about some proprietary advantage that might come out. So it's interesting to see the trend where you're starting to see smart people look at using Open Source but really identifying how they can use their engineering and their intellectual capital to build something proprietary within Open Source for IT advantage. Are you seeing that same trend? Is that on the radar at all? Is that just more of a fantasy on my part? >> I think it's always on the radar, and I think especially with Open Source projects that might be just a little bit below the surface of where a company's line of business is, that's where it will happen the most often. And so, you know, if you were building an analytics product, and you decided to build it on top of, you know, maybe there's the ELK Stack or the Elastic Stack, or maybe there's Graylog. There's a bunch of tools in that space, right? Maybe, you know, Solar, that sort of thing. And you're building an analytics tool or some kind of graph tool or whatever it might be, yeah, you might be inclined to say, "Well, the functionality's not quite there. "Maybe we need to build a new plugin. "Maybe we need to enhance a little bit." And I think this is the same conversation that a lot of the Linux kernel embedded group went through some number of years ago, which is, it's long term a higher burden to maintain a lot of those forks in-house and keep updating them forever than it is to bring some of that functionality back upstream. That's a good, healthy dialogue that hopefully will be happening more and more inside a lot of these companies that are taking Open Source and enhancing it for their own purposes, is taking the right level of those enhancements, deciding what that right level is, and contributing those back upstream and building a really healthy upstream participation regardless of whether you're a software vendor or an adopter of that software that uses it as a really critical part of their product stack. >> Awesome, Donnie, thanks for spending the time chatting with me today. Great to see you, great to connect over our remote here in our studio in Palo Alto. A final question for you. Are you having fun, these days? And what are you most excited about because, again, you've seen. You've been on multiple sides of the table. You've seen what the vendors have. You actually had the realities of doing your job to build value for Carlson Wagonlit Travel, CWT. What are you excited about right now? What's hot for you? What's jazzing you these days? >> Yeah, I think what's hot for me is, you know, to me there's nothing or very little that's revolutionary in technology. A lot of it is evolutionary, right? So you can't say nothing's new. There's always something a little bit different. And so the serverless is another example of something that it's a little bit different. It's a little bit new. It's similar to some previous takes, but you got new angles, specifically around the financials and around, you know, how do you pay? How is it priced? How do you get really almost closer to the metal, right? Get the things you need to happen closer to the way you're paying for them or the way they're running. That's remains a really exciting area for me. I've been going to Serverlessconf for probably since the first or second one now. I haven't been to the most recent one, but you know, there's so much value left in there to be tapped that I'm not yet really on to say, "What's next? What's next?" I've helped myself move out of that analyst world of getting excited about what's next, and for me it's now, "What's ready now?" Where can I leverage some value today or tomorrow or next week? And not think about what's coming down the pipe. So for me, that's, "Well, what went GA?" Right? What can I pick up? What can I scale inside our company so that we can drive the kinds of change we're looking for? So, you know, you asked me what am I the most excited about right now, and it's being here a year and a half and seeing the culture change that I've been driving since day one start to come back. Seeing teams that have never built automation in their lives independently go and learn it and build some automation and save themselves 80 hours a month. That's one example that just came out of our group a couple months back. That's what's valuable for me. That's what I love to see happen. >> Automation's addicting. It's almost an addictive flywheel. We automate something. Oh, that's awesome. I can move on to something else, something better. That was grunt work. Why do I want to do that again? Donnie, thanks so much, and again, thanks for the insight. I appreciate you taking the time and sharing with theCUBE here in our studio. Donnie Berkholz is the VP of IT source of CWT, a great guest. I'm John Furrier here inside theCUBE studio in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching. (lively music)

>> From San Francisco, It's theCUBE. Covering Sumo Logic Illuminate 2018. Now here's Jeff Frick. >> Hey welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We are at Sumo Logic Illuminate 2018: about 600 people. I think its three times as big as it was last year here at the Hyatt San Francisco Airport in Burlingame, and on of the big topics of today is the release of this new report. It's called The State of Modern Applications in DevOps Security, and to talk all about it and the results and kind of the process we are excited to have Kalyan Ramanathan, excuse me, VP of Product Marketing at Sumo Logic. Welcome. >> Thank you, Jeff. >> So you've been doing this report for a while, correct? >> Yeah, exactly, I think this is the third version of this report, and from what we know the first and only report that looks at how, you know, leading edge customers actually build, run, manage, and secure their applications in public cloud environments. >> Right, so just a little history for people that aren't familiar: Sumo launched in the cloud natively, right, and I think you guys launched on AWS. >> Absolutely. >> Way back when, I think, one of our very first AWS shows we went to in 2013, Summit San Francisco, I remember it well, we had you guys on, and so you guys have really grown along with AWS, but obviously you have expanded well beyond just simply inside of AWS. >> That's right. So, the company was founded in 2010, and we were one of the first big data services to run on AWS. I think our founders, you know, ran into one of the AWS architects who describe this new thing called a cloud, and they were completely smitten by it. They thought that this was the next new wave of how services are going to be delivered, so it just made a lot of sense to build this machine data analytics platform, that we were building, or that we were planning to build on AWS. >> Right. >> The scalability, the agility, the, ya know, the flexibility that AWS offered was exactly what our platform needed, and so this was a marriage made in heaven. But we can support applications that run just about anywhere. We obviously support applications running on AWS extremely well; that's our DNA. We get those applications, because we build and run those applications ourselves, but we also support Azure. We support GCP. We support hybrid environments. Many of our customers, ya know, are either, ya know, built in the cloud, and they know only cloud, but a few of them are also making the transition to the cloud, are migrating their applications to the cloud, and you know, we believe that we live in an age where flexibility is extremely important, and we support our customers where ever their applications are today. >> Right, so let's look at some of the findings, so. >> Absolutely. >> Just from a process point of view, you interviewed your customer data base, right? Your, your numbers here? >> Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah. We looked at our 16 hundred customers. >> Sixteen hundred customers, okay. >> And an important point to make out here is that we don't interview our customers. What we do is to, essentially, collect data from our customers, which is what we do when we are doing machine data analytics, we anonymize those data, and we represent as to what is happening in terms of these applications. How do our customers build these applications, you know, manage them, and secure them? >> Right. >> So this is not a >> It's the real data, though. >> It's real data. >> This is not, this is not what they think they know, and they're going to answer the survey. >> Absolutely. Exactly. Right. >> And all the survey biases that can come up. >> You are very right, I mean, you know, that's what makes this report unique, right? >> Right, right. >> It's the first report where we're actually reflecting what customers actually do. It's not a survey. It's not an aggregation of, you know, data from ten other sources. This is as close to truth as you can get in terms of running and building and securing applications. >> Right. >> In the cloud environment. >> So, I was happy to see that the data supports a number of the hypotheses that we derive at a lot of the shows. >> Absolutely. >> That we go through. You know, right of the top: Docker and the adoption of Kubernetes in orchestration is growing rapidly. >> Absolutely, I mean, ya know, everywhere you go you hear containers: container this, container that, so, ya know, we see a similar adoption. Docker has grown from 14 percent to about 28 percent in this, as we see in this report, but what's interesting is also the growth of Kubernetes and orchestration, right? If you were to ask anyone, even in this conference, you know, about orchestration, let's say two or three years ago, and even the word Kubernetes, ya know, I'm sure you'd have gotten blank stares. >> Right, right. >> Here we are, two years into Kubernetes becoming, you know, somewhat mainstream, and we are already starting to see 30 per cent adoption of orchestration within AWS, and out of that 30 per cent, we almost see fifteen per cent of those folks using Kubernetes as a native technology. AWS has just announced their own Kubernetes service. I am sure if, when we have this conversation next year, >> Right. >> Kubernetes, you know, will become a household name. You will see 30 per cent adoption of Kubernetes alone, >> Right. >> Ya know, in a report of this kind. >> Well it's funny: when we were at VMworld a couple weeks ago, and Kubernetes was both in Pat's, Pat Gelsinger's keynote. >> Uh-huh. >> As well as Sonjay's, you know, so it's just, it really shows how fast in this type of a world a new technology adoption can just be put into place. >> Yeah, I mean, if you bring the right capabilities, if you have the right support, which is what Kubernetes does, and, obviously, if you have the right backing, you know, in the form of Google, obviously, incubating this project and then, you know, promoting it as an open source standard, and everybody is now falling behind it. Ya know, we support it. We hear it from our customers, and, you know, the data also bears this out. >> Right, so what about on the database side? What did you find on the database side? >> Yeah, I mean, the database results are always interesting for us, right? You know, I think the most important thing that we learned is that, you know, as customers are building apps in their public cloud environments, they really have a choice, ya know? If you were to build an on-prem, you know, application, once upon a time, I mean, you are usually stuck with Oracle or, ya know, MySQL or SQL Silver or some of those standard database fares everyone has heard about. >> Right. >> But when you, now, go to the cloud, when you migrate to the cloud, or when you are, you know, incubating your applications in the cloud to begin with, you want to re-think your database layer. This is the core layer that powers your application, and there are lots more, ya know, opportunities to, and options out there. >> Right. >> So, what we are seeing is, one, the growth of no-SQL databases: they are way more scalable, ya know, they handle big data way better that, ya know, traditional SQL databases, so we're definitely seeing a growth of that, of no-SQL databases. >> Right. >> What's also interesting is that, ya know, is customers have the choice. They are looking at other forms of databases. Ya know, I could look at Redis, I could look at MongoDB, I could look at Posgres, and, right, I'm not stuck going back to, ya know, our favorite Oracle or SQL Silver anymore. >> Right. What strikes me is that the definition of the requirement has been flipped upside-down. Before it was, "What infrastructure do we have? What's available that IT can deliver to me? What do we have licenses for, and what can I build on top of?" Now the application has taken center stage, so now it's "This is what I want to do with my application. What is it that I need underneath the covers to deliver that capability?" So it really flipped the whole thing on its head. >> Ya know, this also goes back to that, you know, sort of the democratization of decisions where, you know, developers, now, can make these choices. You know, once upon a time, right, I mean, someone, a muckity-muck in your organization says Oracle is the way to go, and everybody follows suite, follows suit. That's not the case any more, right? >> Right. >> I mean, the engineer, they're a developer who is building their application, especially in the microservices world, they can make choices in terms of what is a data server that they may choose to build into that microservcie? And that doesn't have to be Oracle every time. It doesn't have to be SQL Silver every time. You know, if Redis makes sense, if MongoDB makes sense, let's go build that into our into our platform. >> Right, so, another one, you know, serverless is all the hot buzz, and clearly that is supported here with some of the data around Lambda adoption. >> Yeah, I mean, Lambda growth, you know, continues to astound us. We are seeing Lambda grow from twelve per cent two years ago, which is when we did our first report, to now, you know, almost 30 per cent, you know? So, imagine that, right: one in three enterprises today are using Lambda, and this is a technology that is very easy to use, but architecture-wise, you need to re-think how you are putting your applications together with Lambda, and we are starting to see, you know, some wide-spread Lambda adoption, you know, within enterprises. >> Right, but isn't that the ultimate goal, I mean, as we get closer and closer to, you know, atomic versions of store, compute, & networking, I mean, shouldn't it all, ultimately, get there. >> Yeah. >> I mean, there's requirements, and, you know, there's reality I don't deal, you know, luckily I don't have to go turn the stuff on and run it, but, you know, that is the vision, right? Atomic units of compute, atomic units of store, atomic units of network. >> Yeah, I mean, look, serverless is the ultimate Nirvana when it comes to the cloud, right? I mean, the notion of the cloud is that, you know, I have an application. It needs to run. I don't worry about the infrastructure, and to a certain extent, I don't even worry about the management. So, serverless and Lambda is the manifestation of that. >> Right. >> Right, and what we are starting to see is that many customers are, at least dabbling with Lambda. Now, I won't say that customers are building their core application with Lambda yet, because that requires a re-think of their application itself, but what we are starting to see is that Lambda is used in DevOps, Lambda is used in integration, Lambda is a glue-ware that sort of ties all of these applications together. >> Right. >> In fact, you know, this report that we put together, a lot of it has actually been put together on the back of Lambda. We use Lambda extensively to collect this kind of data, and create a report of this kind. >> (chuckles) That's great! Another piece I wanted to make sure that we talked about is really, kind of, the break-down of the clouds. >> Uh-huh. >> Obviously you guys have a huge percentage of your business is, you know, you ask customers, you guys were born in AWS. >> That's right. >> That seems pretty logical, but what's interesting is a lot of multi-cloud, so, you know, I don't know if you distinguish between multi-cloud, hyper-cloud, but at the end of the day, as I think Ramin talked about in the keynote, right, there's going to be different places for different workloads. >> Absolutely. You know, look, as you rightfully pointed out, we are born in AWS, so we have an affinity to AWS, and so AWS customers also have an affinity to Sumo Logic, so it's not wonder that a big swath of our customers are built in AWS. Now, having said that, what we are also seeing is actually an acceleration of our customers, you know, adopting more and more AWS. I mean, they are the leaders in the space. I mean, I think nobody can, nobody can question that statistics. What is interesting, though, is that we are starting to see increased adoption of multi-cloud. We saw about five per cent of our customers dabble in multi-cloud last year. We are at close to ten per cent this year. We are also seeing increased adoption of Azure. We had a, you know, about five per cent of our customers use Azure last year. We are starting to see almost, I should say about eight per cent of our customers used Azure last year. We saw, we're seeing about fifteen per cent of our customers use Azure this year. >> Right, right. >> Right, so Azure is a, you know, has definitely become a very credible second cloud alternative for many of our customers. >> Sure. >> Now, we do see interest in GCP. It's not translated into lots of GCP adoption in production environments yet, but we're definitely seeing that increased interest, and I'm sure, you know, when we put this report together next year, you'll see some very credible and statistically relevant GCP data in this report. >> Right, right, so, Kalyan, there's a lot here, and we could go on for (chuckles) and on and on. So, people can go to the website. They can download the report, but... It's so great, but what I like most about this report is you lay out the facts, right, you lay out your findings, people can question your data source or this or that, but you lay out your methodology, but then you have very specific instructions for the IT buyer about what they should consider, and I think that is so powerful, because I think from the position of an IT purchaser today, >> Right. >> They've got to just be getting creamed with, you know, like, with things we're talkin' about, like, with serverless and Lambda and security and DevOps and >> Right. >> And the pace of change for them keeps going faster, so where do they even begin when they're doin' this kind of analysis? It's not just putting it out for an RFP anymore, right? >> Yeah, I mean, that was the intent of this report, right? I mean, at the, you know, when we started this report our goal was to provide accurate, real-time information about, you know, where are these modern apps in the public cloud going? You know, our leading-edge customers, like Airbnb and the Twitters and the Salesforce and the Adobes, know how to do this well, but there is a huge swath of our community that is, in some sense, perplexed, right? I mean, they see this cloud adoption happening. They see this cloud wave coming. They have cut their teeth on, you know, data centers and applications in the data center. How do I make that transition to the cloud? How do I, you know, follow these cloud-first companies and learn from these companies? And, so, what we wanted to do was to collect this data, anonymously surface this data, and provide, you know, this insight to this community so that they can, you know, in some sense emulate, you know, these leading-edge companies and learn how to architect, build, run and secure their apps. >> Right, right, and I love this little, you know, kind of, the new stack, if you will, the architecture set-up. >> Right. >> Cake chart that you've done in the past. All right, great! So, a lot of, ton of information. I'll give you the last word as we're here at Illuminate, triple last year's numbers. A little bit about where you guys are goin' next. What's, kind of, top of your mind? >> You know, look, you know, Sumo Logic, as a company, you know, we are doing exceptionally well in this machine data analytics space. We are the only cloud-native machine data analytics vendor. We are where the market is going, right? We understand cloud; the apps are going to the cloud. We know how to manage these apps exceptionally well, but more importantly, you know, we think that it's also important and it behooves us to make sure that we take our developer community, our ops community, our security community along with us, and that's the intent of this report. >> Right. >> It's to not sell product, though we do want to sell it eventually. >> Yeah. >> But it's to provide you guys, actually I should say, provide the community with the right kinds of information so that, you know, they can do their jobs better. >> Right, right. >> That's the goal of Sumo Logic. It's all about, you know, empowering the people who power these modern apps, which is actually the theme of this event itself. >> Well, very good. Well, we'll leave it there, and thanks for taking a few minutes of your time. >> Thank you very much, Jeff. >> All right, he's Kalyan. I'm Jeff. You're watchin' theCUBE. We're at Sumo Logic Illuminate at San Francisco Hyatt Regency by the airport. See ya next time. (hip music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco it's theCUBE, covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hey welcome back everyone, this is theCUBE's exclusive of Red Hat Summit 2018, live in San Francisco at the Moscone West, I'm John Furrier the cohost of theCUBE. Here this week, as a cohost analyst John Troyer, co-founder of TechReckoning, an advisory and community development firm. Our next guest is Jim Whitehurst, the president and CEO of Red Hat, we have the man at the helm, the chief of Red Hat. Jim great to see you thanks for coming on and taking the time. >> Yes great to be here, thank you for hosting with us here. >> So you're fresh off the keynote, you've got a spring in your step, you're pumped up. Red Hat is really getting accolades across the board so congratulations on the big bets you've made. >> Jim: Thank you. >> You guys are looking like geniuses. We know you're super smart as a company so congratulations. >> Either that or lucky, but we'll take it either way. We are well positioned. >> Analysts love your opportunity, we're reading in the financial analysts out in the web it's saying, you know, the expanded market opportunity for Red Hat is looking really good. You've got infrastructure applications and management all kind of come in together. OpenShift is a center piece of all this and the cloud scale world is moving right to your doorstep. This is really the big tailwind for you guys. By design or like, how does that all coming together, is it the master plan? >> Well yeah I think it's two things, one is because we don't bet five years out on technology and write a technology stack to get there. That's not our model. Our model is to engage in communities, and when those communities get popular enough that we think that there's value in a supported version, then we offer the supported version. Now if you flip that around and think about what that means, it means we're never wrong with the technology bet, because we're not providing a product until it's something that's already highly successful. So we didn't offer OpenStack until it was successful. We weren't offering a Kubernetes offering until it was popular, and so I think that's one benefit. We truly work bottom up in communities. And then secondly I do think we've benefited from the fact that we've lived in the old traditional enterprise world for 20 years helping them migrate from Unix to Linux. So I think we understand the old world and the one kind of spin we put on the technologies is we have the sense of, okay for traditional enterprises, it's great there's all this cool stuff that Facebook and Twitter and others are doing, how does that apply to this set of problems? I think we uniquely have a foot in both worlds so we work and develop with the Googles, Facebooks, Twitters, but we really think hard about how those technologies apply to a traditional enterprise and the context and legacy migration and all the other issues that they face. >> You had years of experience dealing with the practical nature of getting support to customers. But you got to bring that new shiny new toy but make it right for the customers. >> Yeah exactly, and I think one of the reasons OpenShift, you mentioned that, it's our Kubernetes platform, is getting so much attention is we have instrumented and architected it to be able to run traditional stateful enterprise applications, and so you can do cloud native 12 factor, blah blah blah blah blah on it, but importantly you can run your traditional application suite on it, and so one of the reasons like you see so much momentum and so much interest in it is we're trying to span both worlds, and really thinking from an enterprise IT mindset in terms of their problems and saying how do you apply these technologies to make it work. So we're not sitting here saying you need to go do this, you need to adopt Google's practices. What we're saying is here's great technology we think you can leverage to kind of help you as you migrate to this new world. >> You guys got some clear visibility, and I think it's interesting in the container trend and Kubernetes, really good timing for Red Hat with this going on, and so two things we were commenting on our open today was we got to interoperability of multiple cloud options going on with Kubernetes and containers with respect to legacy applications, and then you got the cloud native scale for all the new stuff. So the old model in tech was kill the old to bring in the new, but now you have a new model where you can actually keep the old legacy, containerize it while building new functionality all within software that you guys are enabling, so this is kind of a breath of fresh air for a lot of people in the industry, on the enterprise side saying oh I can still use my stuff. But yet build new scale with cloud and on-prem and have a choice. >> Exactly. And it's not just use my old stuff. It is also leverage my existing people and their skills. Recognize the appdev world, most people aren't developing in a stateless cloud native way, and if you look at the traditional enterprise developer, they on average have four hours a month to do continuing education and new skill development. So, the idea that you're going to flick a switch and say all my new applications are going to be in this new model is crazy. Plus so much of the work you're doing is around your existing estate, really providing a platform that says you can develop new with the skills once you have those. You can take your existing people and take them on a journey versus like this big chasm that you have to get over as you think about both your applications and skill sets and build over time. I think that resonates really well with enterprises. >> Jim I really liked the keynote this morning. It was a very customer focused, not technology focused, and a lot of these keynotes lately have been fear based. You know, change or die, right? Your company's going to go out of business. You had a more positive vision, and the stories there were very good. A lot about time to market, time to value, some nice stories. I was joking, I think, you know, flying cars would be great, but I know I'm in the future if T-Mobile can help car makers update the apps in the car within a couple months using OpenShift, right? That's the future as far as I'm concerned. But you had this really nice framework of instead of preplanning everything as IT is want to do, you talked about configure, enable, engage. Can you talk a little bit about that framework and kind of your prescription for upleveling the organization and it's resiliency basically, as it hits the ground running. >> Yeah sure, and so I think you put a really good light on this idea of so many technology companies are out there kind of almost fear mongering around digital transformation, and what's happening is organizations around the world, fundamentally how they create value is changing. And it's all gotten listed under this moniker of digital transformation. But what it's basically saying is the future is very unknowable because the world is changing very, very fast, and it's ambiguous. You're likely to have the uberized, I mean that's a word now, orthogonal competitors coming in different ways. So your normal way of let me do a five year plan, let me prescribe a set of initiatives, organizations, and job descriptions to go attack that, and then execution becomes about compliance against that plan. That model no longer works when you don't know the future well enough to be able to do that. And so rather than just pick on that and say oh you should be scared, you should be scared, what we tried to do is say hey, Red Hat's lived in that world forever. Like, we had no idea that Kubernetes was going to be as successful as it is, and we don't necessarily know where it's going to be five years from now. But we know if we build the right context, it will develop the capabilities required for us to meet our customers' needs. And so applying that same model that we've seen in open source, and frankly we see in a lot of web 2.0 companies, we get asked over and over again, hey you provide me great technology, but help me contextualize this broader problem. Because the problem that everybody has is I need to be able to move more quickly, I need to be able to react to change more quickly, and I need to innovate more effectively. That is not a SKU. If that were a SKU we would be $100 billion company, right? That's not a product you can buy, it's a capability to build. And so the model we talked about was planning gets replaced by configuring, right? So, you don't know what the future's going to be but you know it's going to change, and so configure yourself for change. Prescription, or this idea you lay out all the steps that need to happen for people. In an unknowable world you can't do that and it gets replaced by enablement. So how do you enable people with the strategy, the context, but also the tools, decision support tools and information to make the right decision. And execution becomes less about compliance and more about engagement. So how do you engage your people in your organization to effectively react to change going forward? And so this model, and it's a very open sourceish type model of from plan, prescribe, execute, to configure, enable, engage, I think encapsulates a lot of what organizations will need to go do to be successful. >> I got to ask you a question on the community piece. I think that's where you guys have been successful with the community. It's a great way to be successful. You know, AB testing, you just look at what people want and you deliver on it. There's feedback from the community. So I got to ask you, modern open source, as we look forward on this next wave, what is, in your opinion, the key dynamic going on in open source? How is it changing for the better? What are you guys looking at? Because you're seeing a lot of younger people coming in. Open source is a tier one citizen in the world. Everyone knows that now. I mean and when you guys started it was, you know Red Hat and there's an alternative and now you guys have made that market. But now we're looking at another generation, microservices, cloud scale. Open source has become the model. You're seeing a lot more commercializations. Projects maintaining open, some productization going on at the same time. Is there some key changes that you see that people should be aware of or that you guys are watching in how open source has evolved? >> Yeah, so two changes. One kind of a broad role of open source, and then I'll come back then to how it's consumed. You're exactly right. Ten years ago and certainly 15 years ago, open source was about creating lower costs open alternatives to traditional software, right? And that's what we did. You know, Linux looks a lot like Unix, it's just lower cost and more flexible, etc., etc. Over time, though, as the big web 2.0 companies adopted open source as a model, you get this move so more innovation was coming from users than from vendors. So it's like big data, take that as an example. Big data exists not because of open source, it's because a ton of large IT leaders like Google and Facebook and Microsoft and Yahoo, etc., had these big data problems. And rather than going and finding vendors to solve them they solved them themselves. They did it in open source. And so you see this model move from vendor led to user led, and it's just like the industrial revolution. The industrial revolution, the winner's were at the machine tool manufacturers. These people use the machine tools. So I think we'll continue to see this happening where the majority of innovation is happening from users done in an open source way. Now the flip side then is, I think there was a sense 20 years ago and even 10 years ago among the zealots, that it's a big war between open source and proprietary. What we're seeing now, I think developing, you see this with a lot of the partnerships we announced, is open source will be embedded across virtually any technology platform, right? You can't use your phone, you can't get money out of a bank machine, you can't do a search, you can't do any of that stuff without using a lot of open source software. Doesn't mean the whole stack has to be open. Now we're all open and we're advocates for that, but you're seeing Microsoft embrace it, you're seeing IBM embrace, and so broadly I think you will see a larger and larger share of the technology stacks that people use today, be open source, and that'll continue. >> I mean I think the proprietary thing is pretty much a dead horse at this point. I mean, open has always won, open is winning, but also to your point about earlier making decisions in the community, there's a risk management benefit on this user led. You're taking away the risk. There's all kinds of risk management being done for you. There's no longer operational things that cost money, like managing releases. You can actually get great operational benefits as well as risk management for what to do. >> Well exactly, because these platforms, it's not let me look at three vendor solutions and say which one do I think looks the best. You actually can say what are people using at scale, what's worked well? And unless you are a bleeding edge adopter, you actually can get the observations of how people are using it and what's working and what's not. And I'll tell you from a vendor perspective it's great. When we release a product we never say, oh, does the market want this? We're not releasing the product until after the market's already adopted the technology in a community way in a pretty significant way. It's a great day, certainly game changing, I think it's going to be written up as kind of a new dynamic that's going to certainly be referenced in the history books. I want to get your perspective on the going forward basis. I know you guys are a public company so you can't really talk about the numbers, but in looking at some of the financial analysts reports recently on you guys, there's a quote I want to get your reaction to. This analyst said, "Software containers "look to be much larger opportunity than RHEL ever was, "and if Red Hat can become a leader here, "it will set the company up for many years to come. So there's obviously some people saying, obviously the container thing is pretty big. How are you guys talking to the marketplace, both the industry market, financial market, and customers around the containerization opportunity, how does Red Hat look at that? How is you as the CEO talk to that trend? 'Cause I know RHEL. RHEL's got a track record. But now you got containers. What's the order of magnitude? What's the mental model people should take to think about containers? >> So I can answer that in a couple of different ways. So let me start off with the size of the opportunity. So, as applications go from these monolithic services for applications to containerized microservices, that architecture is very, very different. And in the old world you'd have an operating system. And then you'd have a whole set of tool chains and management tools and all of these things to manage these applications, right? Well, in a containerized world you expect the platform to manage that for you, right? And so in the old world, which still exists in this growing force, but in the Linux world we provide the operating system on which the application ran, and then you got different management tools, application performance management, CMBD, all of this stuff that worked around that, right? You expect your platform to do that now, so if you think about the value we have in OpenShift, which is our platform, it's doing that telemetry, it's doing patching, it's doing a lot of the automation that was happening before. So there's a lot more value in the platform. And so like a two socket server running RHEL versus a two socket server running OpenShift, there's like an order magnitude price difference. And our customers aren't looking at it saying, oh my god that's expensive, they're actually looking at it like it's cheap versus the whole sets of tool change and management tools they were doing in the old world. So fundamentally the container platform has a dramatic amount of value. Now then from a Red Hat perspective, and I'll bring up another company, it's a little bit of a competitor, but VMWare did a great job of becoming the default management tool company around a virtualized infrastructure. Well why? Because in the shift from physical to virtual they were there first. And they kind of built a paradigm for managing that. Well in this world going to containers, containers are Linux containers, so we're there first. And so working to drive that paradigm, I think we can be a significant share player in these new container platforms, and honestly if you look out in the market, the clouds have their individual cloud offerings, which are fine. We actually can span all of that. So if you have any hybrid structure at all, we have by far the best solution to address that, and I think analysts are assuming we're going to be successful at a much higher value add and therefore more expensive product. If we get our RHEL share of that, you know it's an order of magnitude larger opportunity. >> And that's the cloud economics in play right there. 'Cause with that scale you're talking about okay, OpenShift's taking on a new role for the multi-cloud, for the large scale, you know horizontally scalable synchronous services that are coming online like microservices. >> Exactly, exactly. >> (sound distorts voice) cloud scale partnership and ecosystem strategy right? Your customers are deploying OpenShift on clouds like Amazon, Google, big partnership with Microsoft announced this week as well as a big IBM partnership. Can you talk a little bit about how Red Hat is approaching that cooperation and competition and what parts you'd like to keep on Red Hat versus where you're going to end up partnering. >> Yeah so, we, when you think about the fact that we sell free software, right? You got to think hard about the value proposition. And one of the value propositions we've always believed in is we create choice for our customers. So running Red Hat Enterprise Linux, we're geeks we can talk about all this value associated with it. For many purchasing departments the value was always, when it comes up for a hardware refresh, I'm not locked into one vendor now. I can bid that out because every vendor works on RHEL. So if my application runs on RHEL, I have unlocked choice at that layer. So that's built into our DNA. It's not just a value our software adds, it's the flexibility we're providing customers. So when we look at these new generation platforms, we really strongly believe we can add a lot of value by abstracting whether you want to run it on premise, on a server, on VMWare, on any of the public clouds. By abstracting those away we're giving our customers choice at the core platform layer. So part one is to make sure OpenShift is a first-class citizen and runs well everywhere. And so for our customers then, you know that your application will run anywhere. For our ISV partners to take IBM for instance, because IBM has announced all of their software running on OpenShift, that can now run wherever OpenShift runs, which is, by the way, everywhere, without IBM having to do a lot of work. So creating this abstraction layer huge benefits for someone like IBM. So you can now run mission critical IBM software anywhere you want to run it via OpenShift. So real value to a partner like that, obviously a value to us as it drives workloads. Now one of the other things that we've seen a lot is that people have gotten used to cloud, is they're really saying, hey I love OpenShift, this is great, but honestly you manage it for me. That's one of the things I like about cloud, so I love the idea of this abstraction layer, but I don't want to have to build my own management or my organization to be able to manage this at scale, so you be my service provider. And so we built that in a small way, so we have OpenShift Dedicated, which is an offering that Red Hat engineers run that runs on Amazon. But we want to make sure our customers had choice and also they could choose other vendors they want to work with and you know, Microsoft has a lot of heritage in enterprises, so this opportunity for enterprise is to be able to run OpenShift at scale on Microsoft, fully managed and supported jointly by Microsoft and Red Hat we think is a really phenomenal offering, 'cause we just don't have the scale to build out the capabilities to even meet the demand that's coming in right now for us to offer a managed service of OpenShift. >> And you guys are also doing some work, just to point out and I want to get your comment on, to help with the licensing issues. I know there's been some announcements where you guys are trying to get some more support for folks who are dealing with some of the licensing issues when expiring and so we had your associate general counsel on talking about some of the, version two, version three, grace periods. What does that mean for customers? What is the internal motivation behind that? Is it just making it easier? >> Well you know, this whole idea of licensing being an impediment to customer success, I just find horribly bothersome in the technology industry. And so we've always tried to strip that out for Red Hat, with our customers, and now trying to say well Red Hat's big enough it can have enough influence broadly. How do we try to be more influential in communities? So certainly nothing in the open source licensing arena, not just for us but for any vendor, gets in the way of customer success. And I think that's so important this idea of the artifact of protecting IP means you create lack of flexibility for your customers. I don't think anybody wanted that to happen, but it's happened. And so anything we can do to kind of tear that down we're working to do. >> Well congratulations on all your success, and I know that when I hear words like defacto standard it gets my attention. You see Kubernetes, role OpenShift's doing. We're envisioning a huge wealth creation of new value creation market coming online pretty quickly. You guys doing a great job. Congratulations on that. >> Thank you, thank you. >> Awesome work. Final question for you, I know you got to roll, but you guys are also growing, I noticed your teams are growing, how do you maintain the Red Hat culture? You get more people coming on working for the company, what's the strategy? Give them the Kool-Aid injection? Do you got to bring them in, assimilate into the open source ethos that you guys built and are expanding? What's the plan of getting all these new employees and new partners on board with the Red Hat way? You hand them the red pill and the blue pill and they better take the red pill. No in all seriousness, it's a high class problem but it's still a problem. You know, we do grow roughly 20% a year. Taking this account even modest attrition, roughly 25% of the people at the end of the year at Red Hat weren't here at the beginning of the year. And so when you think about a culture based company, and I spend a lot of time talking about our source of advantages and capability that's tied up in our culture, that's critical, so from how we think about recruiting over half our employees come from employee referrals, they say nobody knows a Red Hatter like a Red Hatter, to the way we do onboarding, which people laugh, you walk out of onboarding you still don't know how to get a computer, but you have been indoctrinated in the power of open source to the way we do checkups along the way, the way we use video and a whole bunch of things to do that. Because it is critical. It is who we are and what allows us to be successful. >> Do you get a lot of Red Hatters out there who left the company, started companies, they come back in the fold through acquisitions? So that's always a great, great sign and we love what you're doing. I'll say CUBE are open. We love open always is winning and it's the new standard. So congratulations. >> Well thank you for having me. It's great. And I really appreciate you being here, participating in the summit. >> All right, Jim Whitehurst, CEO of Red Hat. We're here in theCUBE, live coverage day two of three days of wall-to-wall coverage. Check out all the coverage on thecube.net, siliconangle.com, and wikibon.com for all the action. I'm John Furrier, John Troyer, more live coverage after this short break. Stay with us, we'll be right back.

>> Narrator: Live from San Juan, Puerto Rico It's theCUBE. Covering Blockchain Unbound. Brought to you by Blockchain Industries. (latin music) >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE exclusive coverage in Puerto Rico for Blockchain Unbound I'm John Furrier, your host, here covering all the action in Puerto Rico as the global society and industry come together. Our next guest is Marhall Taplits he's the Chief Strategy Officer and Co Founder of Nynja.biz, check out their site, Nynja.biz. Marshall, thanks for joining me. >> Thank you. >> So tell about what you guys do. You guys are doing some disruptive stuff, tell us about what you guys do, then it will jam into a conversation. >> Sure, so are you familiar with WeChat in China, for example? >> Yeah. >> Okay great. So I've personally been living in China 15 years, so we've watched kind of the birth of the Chinese internet, which as we know, is a little different than the regular internet. >> A lot of mobile users. >> A lot of mobile users, 800 million China mobile subscribers alone. WeChat, basically, is a platform that started off as just a messenger but basically what it's done is it's integrated into every facet of Chinese society. To give you an example, you go to a restaurant, you scan the QR code, the menu comes up, you pick the food, you pay for the food, it comes, you walk out. Everything like that is in China. Everything like that is in Wuzhen China. So what we've done is we've kind of taken this concept, and we're working on a global version of it, that's cryptocurrency based, and we are working specifically with Chinese companies in order to help them go global as part of the China One Belt One Road program and working with companies like Alibaba, what have you, in order to help Chinese companies go overseas and take what they've built in China but operate globally with cryptocurrency. >> Are you guys in China? Cause it's been hard for companies to start companies in China. So you're living in China or you're working in China? >> Yeah so because we live in Shenzhen, right next to it is Hong Kong. Hong Kong is where our company is based. Hong Kong, as you know, previous British colony, the legal system, and the financial system-- >> And you domicile in Hong Kong, that's where you're based? >> Me personally in Shenzhen, but the company is in Hong Kong. So we also have a Wyoming corporation in the US. >> That's where all the action is. >> That's right >> That's where WeChat is >> That's right >> Alibaba's got Alipay and then there's more business to business with their app. So I get that WeChat's been highly successful. In fact we have a huge following on WeChat, Sou Kanai, Niki Bond, free content. But that brings up the question of Chinese kind of showing the way with mobile expansion, so their users are heavily mobile savy. >> Marshall: That's right. >> This is pretty obvious when you think about it, but in America and around the world, that's going to translate to the new user experience. So in your opinion, how would you describe the expectations that users have? Because you're living on the front end of the wave of what mobile's doing, I mean there's a lot of gamification going on, some if it's kind of creepy, but what is your view of the expectations that users have and what's different about what's currently available in the webstac, and the 20 year old e-commerce stacks, that are out there? >> Sure, I think the most important thing is reducing friction, all right. You don't want to be using platforms where you can not do it wherever you are whenever you are, you don't want to have to go through payment processes, you don't want to have to re-authenticate yourself across whatever platforms you use. And interestingly, when I first went to China, it was all about copying what was in the west over to there, but actually it's kind of the opposite now, right, so we basically want to take this concept of the frictionless digital life, and make it a global opportunity. And especially with BlockChain and cryptocurrency you have that really as an opportunity, because if you look at all the apps that are out there, and the platforms that are out there, the only ones that have gone past a billion users, WhatsApp, Instagram, whatever are the free ones. But as soon as you layer in payment, it becomes very locked. And as big as WeChat is, and as big as LINE is, but ultimately it's locked into the Rem and B system or Reo in Korea, what have you, so the cryptocurrency is really the first opportunity that the world's had to create platforms that can get up to a billion, two billion, three billion users that are able to pay. And we just think that's a once in a lifetime opportunity and we want to be part of it. >> So I got to ask you about the impact that cloud computing has had on this, obviously we've seen cloud computing destroy the data center model, allow people to get time to value faster, mobile on top, big data analytics using data, all this stuff's awesome stuff. So the question is, is that, that's kind of a horizontally disruptive view, so these stacks that are built old way where I got to own the stack end to end, yeah there's some standardization on the lower end of the stack. But now you're thinking about more of a horizontal, I got jurisdictions, I got regions, I got countries, I got sovereignty, all these things are in the melting pot of the cryptocurrency BlockChain, de-centralized applications, are major impacts to all those things. How do you see that playing out because, that's kind of what developers worry about, oh shit will this work on that chain? I got Neo I got this I got that, so the plumbing is totally a moving train right now. >> Marshall: That's right. >> But the business models are pretty obvious. So there's like a business ops thing going on. What Dev opts did for Cloud, you got this new abstraction thing going on with this world. What's your view on that, do you agree? Or what's your take? >> Yeah well you pretty much nailed it. I mean basically what's happening is over the last 10 or 15 years people have finally accepted that having your own server is kind of silly, you know, and most people now will just spin up whatever they need in terms of resources on TheCloud. But over the last couple years, you're really going more toward Edge Cloud, where the way the clouds work, is that basically it's pushing to get the least amount of latency and store the data as close to the user as possible. And then there's also regulatory in some countries now in terms of, if your users are from this country, you have to legally store the data in this area. So this is all kind of evolving. And if you look at the BlockChain technology, I think it's the payment version of that. So for example, everyone's always concerned about getting in and out of Fiat Currency, and how am I going to get back to dollars, and this and that, but I think what's going to wind up happening, is this is going to get pushed towards the edges and there will be opportunities and ways with exchanges and what have you to get in and out. But more importantly, it's going to be like, just other currencies, so for example, I live in China but I come to the US a few times a year, I also travel to Europe, I have some dollars, I have some Euros, I have some Rem and B, when I leave China, I don't immediately sell all of my Rem and B, I just keep it because at some point I'm going to need it. And I think what's going to happen in the cryptocurrency space is, especially on the larger BlockChains, like Ethereum and Neo and what have you, is people are just going to get used to keeping some of it and they're going to stop worrying about what the exact exchange rate is and how am I going to get in and out, and this and that, and they're just going to start treating it as part of their currency stack that they keep. >> Yeah as long as there's some level of stability. It's just like, I remember when I was growing up, there was no Euro, every country had their own currency. You had the French Franc, the Swiss Francs, the Deutsche Mark, Lira, etc, etc. But you're seeing that the viability of the money aspect, cause at the end of the day there's two things that we've identified in analysis, and I was talking about it last night, talked about it this morning on theCUBE, is the killer apps for BlockChain cryptocurrency, these sorts of apps is two things, money and marketplaces. >> Marshall: That's right. >> Everything else is just kind of circling around those two. >> Well there's more but certainly that's the main part of it >> Money, moving around. So the UK just announced with coin based, the Financial Conduct Authority, reading the news yesterday, has essentially said we're going to allow for the fast payment system to convert to Fiat. This is a government, the UK is a nation. This is the beginning, to your point, that if they don't get up to speed, the edge of the network will democratize them and kind of circle the wagons, if you will, so it's already happening. >> Yeah and I think what governments are starting to realize is hey guys this is just a technology and not only do you don't really have jurisdiction to control it, but also that you don't even have the technical means. So Wyoming is a good example of regulation coming into play, that just kind of accepts the presence that this now exists, right. And they're not going to try to make it something and fit it into the old way. So, and in terms of the stability of these coins, I think it is important because people want stability, but in other ways, if you don't look at the exchange rate, it's actually way more stable than the current system, and I'll give an example. In the last month or two, the prices of cryptocurrency have dropped almost 40%. Now if the stock markets and the global affects markets drop 40%, you'd have blood in the streets. But the crypto market is asset based instead of debt based and because it's so structurally sound it's able to handle these wild swings without actually collapsing the system, so in may ways, it's way more stable, and then as the market gaps and the buy in of these currencies get bigger and bigger, of course it's going to be more stable over time. >> Well I mean its stable from a fail standpoint, but a lot of emotional instability. People losing money for the first time. >> But that's just because they're-- >> That's a lot of speculation, right? >> There's a lot of speculating and then if they're down they feel like they lost but, that's life. >> People that are into the game, like you, were long on this. So what would you explain to someone, cause I have two, a lot of friends that have two schools of thought, that's a total scam, don't associate with that, to oh my god, that's the next biggest wave, lets get our surfboards out there and lets get on this, there's a multiple set coming in, it's the biggest thing we've seen, and everything in between. How do you explain it to people for the first time? >> It's just your traditional curve, there's early adopters and what have you, and if you were one of the guys buying up domaine names in the early 90s, you know some people would say I can't believe you're spending $100,000 buying up domaine names, but some of them now are worth, you know, tens of millions of dollars. But again, this is the speculatory piece of it. And there's no shortage of opportunities for speculation and I encourage everybody to speculate a little bit because what it does is it gets you a taste of the technology. And usually, when you have some money on the line, you pay more attention, so if speculation is what gets people interested, and it gets them watching it and understanding the technology and using it, then I'm all for it, but people shouldn't be speculating with money they don't have. Anything could happen in the short term. Nobody knows what's going to happen with any specific currency. But in terms of the technology itself, this is a revolution way bigger than the internet itself. This is where you're getting, not only, communications like the internet, but financing governance and all as one. Programmable money, programmable contracts, that wipes out finance, it wipes out legal, it whites out governance in many ways. So this is a huge evolution in human society, and we've termed this Open Unity actually. And so we believe that society has to reach a state of open unity in order to go into the singularity as we would envision it wanting to be, as something that's under our control. >> Yeah and I think one of the things, first of all that's a great statement, well said. I'll just kind of put some reality on that, connect the dots, is that if you look at the trajectory of cloud computing, Amazon Web Services was laughed at years ago. S3 came out, compute storage building, basic building blocks and a slew more services. What Cloud did for software developers, and what they've disrupted from a business standpoint, dev ops, it's proven. What open source has done, even going back to the old red-hat days and linux, is that now a tier one global citizen in software, you look at those two trends, you can connect that dots to what you just said. And what made Cloud great was they made application developers have access to programmable infrastructure. >> Marshall: Exactly. >> You're talking about a whole nother level of software programmability, money, marketplace, society, >> Yeah you hit it on the head. >> We're there right? >> That's exactly right, so when a programmer wants to start a business, instead of going to create an LLC, and getting their EIN Tax ID or whatever, and when they want to go into Europe, and dealing with that and then trying to open a bank account, which is almost impossible, internationally now, instead of that, you just have your SDKs and your APIs or whatever and you've got access to money, program adding, you can take money, you can move money around, globally, frictionless, permissionless, with governancy, smart contracts-- >> They might not not need an SDK dashboard, its a console, click, click, click, smart contracts, governance, turn key. >> And one of the things we're working on with Nynja in particular, is this kind of on-demand marketplace and putting together a de-centralized teams for work. And this is all driven by smart contracts. So one of the issues with the economy is the huge booms and busts that people have in the economy. And if you look at the root cause of that, my personal opinion, is that it's because of payment terms. So for example, if I do work for you, and then there's an invoice, but it's not due for 30 days, now your business may be structurally sound, but the truth is your cashflow is all over the place. With BlockChain technology, we can actually do real time payments. You could be paid minute by minute, hour by hour. Real time, program, contract. So we're going to create very flat even money flows through the entire economy globally, and we're going to just completely remove these booms and busts that are really nothing more than just cashflow issues that are compounded and compounded at a global level. >> I mean I lived through the dot com bubble, I was actually part of it on the front end, on the euphoria side, as well as on the crash. Part of the whole search paradigm, google right there. Key words, all that stuff happening, growth, massive growth. So I saw that, the scammers in there, or the bubble people, that's what we called them. But the reality is, everything happened. It was pet foods online, you could get shopping delivered to your house. So again, to your point, it's a little euphoric right now, but what's different is, is you have now, community data. See what I see happening is, it's not a major bubble crash, because self government, self governing, self governance, is a community dynamic. So I think there's going to be a lot of self healing, inside the networks themselves. You're already seeing it here, a lot of people, bad act is being identified, investors flight to quality, looking at quality deals. Interesting times, your thoughts? >> Well I mean you know, we've been through many evolutions of society, we've had surf-dom, we've had monarchies, we've had representative democracies, we have all these things, and I just think the next evolution is decentralized governance. And we don't even know what that means yet, because it's just starting, but I think we can all, if we can close our eyes and really think about it. I think it's pretty obvious what the issues are with our current system and not just the US, but globally, and I think we have an opportunity here to build in organic program governance. And what's really special about BoxChain technology is if I program it to do X, it's going to do X. So we don't need to, I don't need to know who you are to trust you. I don't need to worry about where we're going to sue each other, or we're going to have arbitration if things go wrong. We're just going to make an agreement, and we're going to program it that way, and that's it. And now the next phase is, I could build on top of that trusting that that's just going to happen. So you can create these chains of trust, and that can happen anywhere in the world. So I think this is a whole nother-- >> Sounds like a bunch of web services. >> Well in many ways, in terms of the architecture, sure you could absolutely think of it like that. >> The reusability, the leverage is amazing. All right, so I want to just end the segment Marshall, take a minute to end the segment, to talk about what you're working on, Nynja coin, Nynja, N-Y-N-J-A .biz, you guys have a product, you got a BlockChain enabled platform, you got a coin, take a minute to explain what you're working on. >> Basically we want to provide the tools and services to help people live in this new reality. So in order to basically function in the world that we're entering into, we're going to need tools that far surpass what's currently available in terms of the messengers, the web sites, all these things. We need to be operating at a level that takes communication completely frictionless, payment completely frictionless, and governance completely frictionless. And we have to put this all together, and that's what we're doing with Nynja. We're staring with a global communicator, which is basically, if you want to take WeChat, telegram, whatever, but we have about 50 additional features that really take communications to the next level. And then on top of it, creating the baseline with cryptocurrency payment, and also smart contract wizards and helping people kind of get these teams going and get paid and organize their financial life in a de-centralized way. So we're just basically going to be the next generation of these messenger type platforms with BlockChain integrated. And what you're going to see is that over the next couple years you're going to get to the first companies that are achieving not just a billion or two billion or three billion users, but paying users, and we're going to be one of the probably three to five platforms that are offering tools at the global level like this. >> And have you got an IC already or not? >> We've just started our private ICO about two weeks ago. We're getting tremendous support in Asia. Quite frankly, the US is not seeing it as much-- >> Is it a utility token or security? >> Utility Token, and I think it's really telling, interesting, coming here. It's the first time I've been doing the presenting. We spoke yesterday at the d10e and we also spoke at d10e in Korea a week or two ago, and the response is incredible. And I think the reason is because-- >> The Asian market gets it. >> Well they're already living in this world within their own confines in terms of the messenger with their payment and governance built in, so when I tell them that we're going to do this globally with crypto, immediately they get it. I'm having trouble here, especially in these five minute pitches which is ridiculous, it's like a chop shop, I don't know how to communicate the idea within this short time frame, so, what I'm looking for while we're here this week is just to find people who really want to take an hour or two or even people like yourself who want to do interviews and just kind of really talk to people and really explain-- >> Well platform is complex, a lot of pieces to it. It's a system, but the value you offer is essentially offering developers, who are building products, for tools that you've built so they can scale faster. That sounds like your value. >> That's right and although I can't say specifically, we're also working on a deal that's going to get us started with about 15 million active users on day one, so that's very exciting and we're really really excited about that. >> And the coins will be utility of measures, what? >> Sorry? >> Well your utility coins going to be measuring what, what's the main token economics that drives the-- >> For the ICO economics? >> Your Nynja Coin. >> So basically we're releasing 5 billion tokens, 45% of them will be sold. There's five cents a token, so the hard cap, by definition is about 112 million, actually we're planning to do the public sale in April, but we may cancel it or postpone it just because the private sale is going really well, but we'll see how that goes. But in terms of once it's live, this will basically be the utility token of the entire eco-system, so anybody, not just within our Nynja App or platform, but even people, I don't know if you know XMPP federation, like back in the day-- >> Yeah you know about real messaging >> If you could think of us as the next version of XMPP federation, but using cryptocurrency in order to avoid bad actors by making it very expensive to do bad things, and very cheap to do good things and globally. >> So it's like Twitter you can create a bot instantly, but if there's coins involved, you'd have to spend to get it. >> That's right and also people could spin up nodes that are basically their own Twitters and decide if those Twitters of their own, their Nynja boxes of their own, are either just internally, or you could specify specifically context or group of context-- >> We agree, that's a great way to get bad actors out because it costs them money. And it's de-centralized, there's no single spot. >> That's right, if email came out today, when cryptocurrency existed, there would be no spam. Because it would be expensive as hell to send more than a few a second, but it would still be free and for everybody generally, and you wouldn't even have spam. So we think we can do that for messaging globally. >> Great. Marshall, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, really appreciate it, check out Nynja. Marshall Taplits is the Chief Strategy Officer and co-founder of Nynja.biz, check them out online. Check out the website, it's in Asia, bringing that culture of mobile and fast moving, real time apps, to the rest of the developers. This is theCUBE coverage in Puerto Rico for BlockChain Unbound exclusive two days of coverage. We'll be right back with more, after this short break, thanks for watching.

(bright music) >> Hi, this is Donald Klein with CUBEConversations, coming to you from our Palo Alto studios. We're here doing a special series on CMOs and the challenges of digital marketing, and today we're here with Peter Smails, who is the former chief marketeer at DatosIO. Welcome, Peter. >> Thanks for having me, always fun to be here. >> Good, good. Well look, so, I wanted to set aside this time and have a discussion with you, because you're somebody who's had a long marketing career, you've been in big companies, you've been in small companies, most recently with Datos. >> Yup. >> You've been in companies where you've had established brands with proven product stories. You've also been in situations where you've got companies that were sort of unknown to the broader world, and you had to find a way to make them known and prove out that proposition-- >> Put 'em on the map. >> Put 'em on the map. So talk to us a little bit about how you've approached that challenge when you've been in some of the smaller companies. >> Sure. Sure, happy to do that. And yeah, my past has been an interesting mix of big companies and small, and the small companies present a bunch of unique challenges, but there's nothing more fun than having the opportunity of having a company that's got some great technology, some great people, and essentially the fun job of any marketeer is, how do you put them on the map? And we've been talking a lot about, what are the levers you can pull? What can you do? And one of the challenges with being a small company is you don't have any money. >> Mm. >> I mean, you might, but you don't have a ton of money. So, that's where social, right off the bat, if I sort of look at the levers I can pull initially, when you look at your strategy, OK, I need to put the company on the map so I've got to drive thought leadership, I've got to drive awareness. You know, I've also got to drive demand-gen. So what are the levers I can use, what are the vehicles that I can use to drive that? And I think that's where social has, a lot of people think of social as the new demand-gen vehicle. I don't necessarily see it that way, I think social has actually become an ideal complement to all the other traditional levers that you still want to use. And again, there's segmentation that comes into this as well, in terms of what organizations you're trying to target. Are you going after SNB, are you going after the enterprise, et cetera. In my case, it's primarily been going after the enterprise. >> Mm-hmm. >> So, when I look at that from a social standpoint, social media in general sort of the value of it is really as a complement to the other traditional levers that you have in your arsenal. Whether that be events, industry events, whether that be traditional demand-gen things, outcome type things, social becomes an ideal complement for promoting those things, and then social also becomes a very important pillar in the sense it removes sort of the barrier to entry in terms of being relevant if you will, because it's a very cost-effective way of creating a drum-beat of news. And again, we can get into more specifics, of the different aspects of that, whether it's traditional social, like the twitters, whether it's videos and that type of things, the different pieces you could use in there. >> OK. So, now, talk a little about the role of events. One of the challenges with the smaller companies, you don't have the big event budgets, you don't have the big booths, but still now, you say digital, you often hear some companies talk about how we're going to try to go all digital. Because that's a place where we can play, because even if we don't have the money. But digital is a crowded space, so did you strike a balance between events and digital? What was your thinking? >> That's a great question. And balance is exactly the right word. It's going to vary, there's no sort of exact science, but you have to be selective, again, going into an enterprise clientele, you have to be selective about the events that you're going to do, number one. Digital is a very good instrument, particularly as a small company, this is a point I didn't make before, the whole notion of inbound versus outbound as well. Where digital can play a very key role from an inbound standpoint, think simple things like SEO and SEM. Can people find you? Are you relevant? The early adopters are the people that know they have a problem, so they're going to look for something. So you can very cost-effectively make yourself relevant there if they know what they're looking for. And particularly, that's what's fun about creating a segment, is if you're doing something nobody else is doing, then you're playing in a potential blue ocean, where you're not competing at a very high cost, you're not bidding at a very high cost for some of the things you do, form say Google Ad Words or that type of stuff. So you've got your ability to be effective from an inbound standpoint, number one. To your point about the events, you absolutely need to do those events. Your core set of whatever segment you're in, whatever business you're in, you've got to be focused on those core events, because I still find that to be, that's where a lot of, enterprises, they still use events as one of the key places they go to learn, to educate themselves, to find out what's happening in the marketplace. The key is, how do you maximize your presence at those events? How do you leverage social to promote the fact that you're going to be there? >> Right. >> What do you do at the event? What can you do? And again, this is where we can come back and talk about things specifically like theCUBE, you know, where you can use vehicles like theCUBE very effectively, because, one, I can drive a lot of influence in-show, but then as well I can create a much longer tail, I can maximize my presence, I can maximize the IP that I bring to that show by capturing that in digital medium, like video, and then being able to use it post. Simply put, you go to a show these days, if you're not on theCUBE, then you're missing the boat. It's just sort of like a regular pillar of all the core industry shows. So that's great for driving influence, not only to customers, but within the industry, but then it also is a great way for creating assets that I can then use for longer tail. For thought leadership, or demand-gen, or whatever I may want to use. >> OK, understood, understood. So let's talk a little bit about this notion of complement. So what you're saying is that, you want to go to the events, that's where the belly-to-belly interaction is, that's where things are happening, right, and then you're using social to leverage up your presence at those events. >> Correct. Or to promote the fact that you're going to be there. Drive interest in people showing when you do a contest, or there's, you know, creative things you can do, but yeah, you're using social to basically drive awareness to the fact that you're going to be there. You're using social to promote you're in the session. You're on theCUBE, or whatever it is you might be doing. You're hosting an event that evening, an offsite event, use that as a way to complement the fact that you're at the event doing your belly-to-belly, great term, you're doing your traditional belly-to-belly get-together. >> Understood. Because we've heard people talk about it and say, social's great, digital is great, but it's also very crowded out there. And where you've got people's attention, where you've got people's mind chair is in and around events. >> Yeah, I would agree with that. I would agree with that. And it's, you know, social is a great way, it removes the barriers to entry, but the flip side of that, for good or for bad, is that it also creates a lot of noise. So how do you separate the noise? How do you rise above the noise? And that really is, leveraging social, leveraging digital overall, in the appropriate high-credibility, high-integrity ways, to drive influence within the industry, to drive relevance of what you're doing, and then also use that as a vehicle for helping other demand-gen sites. So it's the new normal kind of thing. It's not the ideal platform, social, per se, is not the ideal demand-gen platform, but it is a complementary piece, but also to your point, creates a tremendous amount of noise, so then the challenge becomes, how do you basically stand above the noise? And that comes down to influence, that comes down to credibility. >> OK. >> Are you telling your credible narrative, are you talking to credible people, are you in the appropriate forums, that type of thing. >> OK, and so let's talk about video and how that kind of fits into that digital strategy. Cause that's kind of the new realm in terms of everybody wanting to kind of create digital content, in video form, what's been your experience in terms of the challenges of creating that content, and then getting it out in digestible forms? >> A couple different aspects to that. The creation of content is getting, it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. The creation of video content is getting easier, if you will, in the sense of the cost of, you know, you can put a studio and a small business together reasonably inexpensively, but then what content are you creating there? Well, what content I'm creating there is essentially I'm going to promote what we're doing as a company, we're going to create some short little blurb about the recent launch or something, or potentially have a customer, although typically you have a customer, and you go visit the customer and do it there. But that's the stuff where you're sort of the self-promotional stuff. You know, where I find the events, in particular what you guys are doing with theCUBE in Silicon Valley, what I like about that is that the content that I'm creating, it's by no means sort of a pre-canned, sort of has a black and white beginning and end. It's very topical, it's very sound bite-ish in a good way, not a bad way, if you will, and it's also very topical. Very topical, which is key, because again, back to the whole influence, it's not just about hammering away at the customer, hey look at me, look at me, look how great I am. It's basically, you have to build a community, you have to build an eco-system, you have to build a community of people that know you, that trust you, and we talked earlier about the whole earned media versus paid media, if you build that credibility, you build that influence, like hey, saw you on theCUBE. Get an email from Fortune or Forbes, like, oh yeah, I saw you on theCUBE, we'd be interested in doing this, that, and the other thing and it all comes down to building that arsenal, if you will, or that library of high-credibility, high-integrity, high-influence content. Which is all video-based, because video is the way people consume information. >> So I think we'd agree with you, right, having content which is based on authentic interactions between a vendor and his customers, between vendors and partners, between vendors and analysts, right, that's really the key to making good, engaging content. Now what about, in terms of, how do you find getting that content out to individuals in a way that is kind of consistent with the way people are consuming content now in social media? I think we're seeing, there's a whole debate out there, long-form versus short-form content, clips, et cetera, what's been your experience? >> I don't know the number, but I'm quite certain that the average attention span of people in general is dramatically down. There'd be an interesting metric on that. So the world leans absolutely heavily towards, as I said earlier, more sound bite-oriented. But not sound bite in a bad way, it's just sort of, just look at the landscape we live in now, it's like, until recently, we lived in a 140 character world kind of thing. And you can convey a lot more through spoken word than you can just typing, but people consume things in very short bursts of information. So one, you want to take advantage of that. Two, the other thing I would say to this, is that one of the things I like about short-form video is again, I'm a big meta-data guy. In one five-minute, just in the conversation we're having now, we've covered eight different topics. >> Right. >> So to me, as a marketeer, I'm like OK, great, that's eight different-- >> Donald: That's eight different clips. >> Kind of thing, great, and I can use that for any number of different things I want to. One of those pieces that maybe was the part about so what are you doing now? Maybe the plug part could be, we could promote that, that could actually be a demand-gen thing. Or if you're talking about a segment where you're just like well how are you guys uniquely differentiated? You could use that for consideration. You know, there's all different ways, but the notion of sort of highly granular video content has huge value. >> Donald: Interesting, OK. >> It just creates a lot of leverage. >> So this has kind of been a blocking and tackling for marketeers kind of conversation, so kind of sum up your main points here, so one you were saying, use social to complement your presence at events and other types of-- >> And not just events, use it as a way of supporting demand-gen, use it as a way of staying relevant, join all the appropriate communities you need to be joining. You have to stay relevant, you have to stay within the noise, sort of as the table stakes, then beyond that, you got to figure out how do you rise above the noise, how do you use it strategically, to actually rise above the noise of everybody else's banging away on social as well. >> OK, agree with that. Second point then, use authentic content. Try to mix in relevant-- >> People are tired of just talking heads. People are tired of, I don't need to see another video on how great you are, or whatever, so back to your point, that's my interpretation of authentic content. Do what you do. Share what you do. Put it in context and smart people will figure out, and then obviously share it in the appropriate communities so that people can find it, but they very naturally, I think there's a very low appetite now for BS, 'cause there's so much noise. People are so hungry for just getting to the relevance of the information that they want, which again is where the sound bite-level stuff, and the more you can index and be intelligent about that data, the faster you can help people find information they're looking for. >> OK, excellent, alright, well we're going to have to wrap it up on that point but I think that was exactly right, I think we're seeing that in some of the customers we work with as well. So, leverage to social, focus on authentic content, get it out there in forms that people are willing to digest. >> Peter: Absolutely correct. >> Alright, well thank you everyone, this has been Donald Klein here with Peter Smails, former chief marketeer at DatasIO, with CUBEConversations. (bright music)

Live from Las Vegas. It's the Cube covering AWS Reinvent 2017 presented by AWS, Intel, and our ecosystem of partners. >> Hello, welcome back. This is live coverage of the Cube's AWS re:Invent 2017. Two sets, a lot of action, day one of three days of wall to wall coverage. I'm John Furrier with my co-host Keith Townsend. Our next guest cube alumni is Yaron Haviv who's the founder and CTO of Iguazio, a hot new start up. And big news coming next. We got a big announcement. In following their work, Yaron, good to see you again. Thanks for coming back on. >> Hi, thanks! >> Hey you got a new shirt. Share that logo there. >> That's nuclio. That's our new serverless brainwork which is open source. Really kicks ass, it's about 100 times faster than Amazon. >> Word says it's 200 times faster. >> Yeah we don't want to shame. >> You set the bar. >> We doing 400,000 events per second on a single process. They do about 2000. Most of the open source project around the same ball park. >> Yaron, I got to get this off the bat. And then we can have a nice discussion afterwards. A pleasant discussion. Serverless. Let's first define what that means. Because there's a bunch of- I can take nuclio, install it in my data center, run it, am I serverless? >> You know so I mean I'm in the serverless working group. >> For CNCF >> for CNCF. And a we had a hot debate between the open source start ups. Doing what is called functional service and Amazon and others trying to push the notion of serverless. Which is serverless stands for server less. Meaning you don't manage server. And the way we position nucleo, it's actually both. Because on one end you can consume it as an open source project. Very easy to download. Single docker instruction and it's up and running unlike some other solutions. And on the other hand you can consume it as something within the Iguazio data platform. There is a slide from Amazon which I really like. Which is about serverless. They show serverless is attached to kinesis, DynaomoDB, S3 and Athena. Four services of data that attach to Lamda. Iguazio has API compatibility with kineses, DynamoDB with S3 and Presto, which is Athena as well. So exactly the same four data services that they position as far as the service ecosystem are supported on our platform. So we provide one platform, all the data services at Amazon has or at least interesting ones, serverless functions which are a hundred times faster, a few more tricks that they don't have-- >> So what is the definition then. In a pithy way, for someone out there who's learning about serverless. What is it? What's the definition? >> So the notion as a developer, you're sort of avoiding IT. You go, open a nice portal, you write the function, or you write your function in a get up repository somewhere. You click on a button and it gets deployed somewhere. Right now you know where it's going to get deployed. In the future, you may not know. >> Instead of an EC2 instance, get that prepared >> It's not really an EC2. >> The old way. The old way was. Right? >> The old way there were infrastructure guys building your EC2 instance, security layers, milware, etc. You go develop on your laptop and then you need to go and conform and all the continuous integration play was very complicated. Serverless comes inherently with scale out without the scale in, with continuous integration. You have versioning for the code. You can downgrade the version, you can upgrade the version. So essentially its a package version of a cloud native solution. That's the general idea. >> So I can do that if I'm doing it and managing it myself. It functions as a server. And if I'm doing it and it's a provided it as a cloud provider as a server, as a service, it's serverless. None of my operations team is dealing with servers. It's just writing code and just go. >> Yeah, you're writing a function. Push commit. You should play with nucleo, not just other things. But you'll see you're writing a function. Even see it has a built in editor. You write, you push deploy and it's already deployed somewhere. >> So give us some perspective before you move on. On the game what the impact is to a developer. Apples to oranges. Our old way you described it, new ways, it sounds easier! What's the impact? Is it time? Money? Can you quantify? >> The biggest challenge for businesses is to transform. I saw an interesting sentence. It's not about digital transformation, it's about businesses that need to work in a digital world. Okay? Because again, most of the communication of customers to businesses is becoming digital. Okay? Whether it's today from mobile apps tomorrow through Alexa. >> As Luke Cerney says, it's all software. Your business is the software. >> It's all about interactive really. Okay. As a business I always position there are two things you need to take care of as a business. One is increasing the revenue. And that's by engaging more customers. And increasing the revenue per customer. How do you engage more customer? Through digital services. Whether it's Twitters or proving a new service through your web portal. And the next thing is how do you generate more revenue from a customer is by showing recommendations. >> Finding more value. >> And the other aspect is operational efficiency. How do you automate your reparations to reduce the cost. You know Amazon uses robots to do the shipping and packing. So their margins can now be lower. So the generator is both those things. Reducing cost is becoming more and more dependent on automation which is digital. And increasing revenue become more about customer engagement which is digital. Okay so now you're a traditional enterprise. And you have your exchange to worry about. And all the legal stuff and the mainframes. But if you're not going to work on the transformation piece. You're going to die. Because some other start up is going to build insurance company which is sort of agile and all that. >> So you made an interesting comment earlier when you were talking about nucleo. And integrating the functions that really matter. The services that matter. Amazon releases 800 new services a year. >> Actually 1300. >> I'm sorry 1300. >> This time less, no? >> Right now they're at 1130 and they expect 1500, 1700 by the end of the year. Two years ago it was like 750 and then the year before that was 600. >> So is that an indicator as to Amazon's leading this race between the big, I don't know, three, four cloud providers. Rack and stack them for us. How do we assess the capability? >> It's a matter of mentality. Okay. Persos thinks like a supermarket. Just like an Amazon market. I could say I need a cover for my iPad. I'm gonna get 100 covers for my iPad. No one really, I need to now choose. So their strategy is we'll put dozens of services that do similar things. One is better at this, one is better at that. We control the market we'll sell more. We have a different approach. We do fewer services but each one sort of kicks ass. Each one is much better, much faster, much better engineered. Okay? This is also why we are on data plus provides 10 different data APIs and not 10 different individual data platforms. >> Alright so let's talk about the scoreboard. Even though they might be thinking about the supermarket. You've got Amazon, Azure Microsoft and Google. I've looked at some of the data. I mean, Microsoft's been international for a while from their MSN business. They now have Skype. They have data centers, they know a little bit about cloud. Amazon's got a lot more services. They support multiple versions of things. Google is kind of non-existent on the scale of comprehensiveness. >> Have you looked at their serverless functions? By the way? >> There's new stuff. Tensorflow, serverless. >> But serverless they only support an OJS. They have very few triggers and it's still defined as beta. >> That's the point, so people are touting my Forbes article. They're touting like a feature. There's a lot more that needs to get done. So the question I have for you is. There's a level of comprehensiveness that you need now. And I know you guys spend a lot of time building your solution. We've talked abut this at our last Cube interview. So the question is the whole MVP cousin, minimal viable product. Is great when you're building a consumer app for an iPhone. But when you start talking about a platform and now cloud. Question to you is there a level of completeness bar to be hurdled over for a legit cloud or cloud player? >> I don't think you need 1000 services to build a good cloud. But you do need a bunch of services. Okay? Now the way we see the world like Satya. Okay? Which is there is a core cloud. But there is sort of a belt around it which is what we call intelligence cloud. We would define ourselves as the intelligence cloud. So if someone is building a machine learning model and it needs a 5 year worth of data. And it just needs to do crawling on top of it. It's not really an interesting problem. It's commoditized, lots of CPO power, object storage. But the bigger challenge is doing game referencing close to the edge. This is what needs to happen in real time. You need fewer services but you need to be real time. >> Smarter integration to do that. Right? I mean. >> You have density problems. You don't have a lot of room to put a 100 servers. It needs to be a lot more integrated. You know look at Azure stack. Their slogan is consistency. Look at a slide that shows which Azure services are part of Azure stack. Less than 20%. Because it's a lot more complicated to take technology design whereas hyper scale and put them on few servers. >> How do customers figure it out? What does a customer do? It's all mind boggling. >> I love that concept of core services and then value around those core services. What are those core services that a cloud must have before I start to invest in that cloud providers strategy? >> So the point again, there's a lot of legacy that you need to grab with you. Especially someone like Amazon. So they have to have VMs and migration services from Oracle, etc. But let's assume I'm a start up and building a new client native applications. Do I need any of that? No. I can probably can do with containers. I don't really need to be VMs. I can use something like cybernetics, I can use sequel databases maybe some like sequel. So I can redesign my application differently with a lot fewer services. The problem for someone like Amazon in order to grow and be a supermarket, you have to have ten of everything. If I'm someone that focus on new applications I don't need so many services and so much legacy. >> Well I'll say one thing. You can call them a supermarket, use that retail analogy, I buy that analogy only to the extent that you used it. But if that's the case, then everyone's hungry for food. And they're the only supermarket in town. >> But Wholefoods maybe less stuff on the shelf. >> Everyone else is like a little hot dog stand compared to the supermarket. Amazon is crushing it. Your thoughts? I say that. Are they kicking ass? >> Obviously Amazon is kicking ass. But I think Azure is ramping up faster. Amazon is generating more alienation among people that they are starting to compete with. You know. >> Azure is copying Amazon. Right? >> Yeah. But they have a different angle. They know how to sell to enterprises. They already have the foot in the door for Office 365. I've talked to a customer. We're going Azure. I say why? >> Together: They've got 365. >> We already certify the security with 365 for us to use Azure it's a- >> Right up until that next breech. >> So the guys owning ITs, it's easier for them to go to Azure. The developers want Amazon. Because Amazon is sexier. >> We got to break. We debated this on the intro segment with he analyst. Question. IT buyers have been driven by a top down CIO driven, CXO driven waterfall, whatever you want to call it, old way. With developers now at the driver's seat, with all of this serverless function, serverless coming around the corner very fast. Are developers driving the buying decisions or not? Or is it IT? The budget's still there. They want to eliminate labor. They want more efficiencies. Are you seeing it again? Will it happen? >> Yeah because we are just in the middle. On one end we're an infrastructure. We're an infrastructure consumed by developers. So we keep on having those challenges within the accounts themselves. IT doesn't get what we're doing. Serverless, and database is serverless. Because they like to build stuff. They want to take the nutanix and take a hundred services on top of it. And it will take them two years to integrate it. By that time the business already moved somewhere else. >> So IT could be a dinosaur like the mainframe? >> Right. I think the smart ITs understand they need to adopt cloud instead of fight it. And more the line further up the step. And that sort of the thing we are trying to provide to them. When you are building stuff you are buying EMC storage. You are not just taking discs. So why do you focus on this low level block storage when you're buying infrastructure. Why no buy database as a service. And then you don't need all the hassle. Streaming is a service. Serverless is a service. And then you don't need all that stack. >> Yaron, you should be our guest analyst. But you're too busy building a company. We're going see you next week in Austin for Cubicon. Congratulations. I know you guys have worked hard. The founder and CTO of Iguazio. You're going to hear a lot about these guys. Smart team. They're either going to go big or go home. I think they're going to go big. Congratulations. More coverage here at AWS Re:Invent after this short break. I'm John Furrier with Keith Townsend.

>> Announcer: From Hell's Kitchen in New York City. It's theCUBE, on the ground, at Serverlessconf. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, here with theCUBE at Serverlessconf 2017 in New York City, Hell's Kitchen, actually, happy to welcome to the program, hard to believe, someone, as far as I can tell, we've never had on the program-- >> Yeah, I don't think so. >> But I've known for a long time, actually been drinking with him in Hell's Kitchen before, so Aneel Lakhani, thanks so much for letting me interview you. Your current position is vice president of marketing at Honeycomb.io >> Correct. >> Do you just call it Honeycomb or-- >> We just call it Honeycomb. >> Alright. So, Aneel, how are you doing? Tell us a little bit about your background, but keep it short and what gets you involved in the whole serverless ecosystem? >> Yeah, sure. So, about me, I've been in tech for a little over 20 years now, started out as an engineer, moved through a bunch of systems roles, architecture roles, and product roles, and now I run marketing at start-ups, which is what I've been doing for the last half decade or so. >> I think back to when Amazon announced Lambda, everybody's like, "Ooh, it's cool, what is it? "How do I use it?" Things like that. One of the things I've heard out of this event, this week, is tooling, monitoring, understanding, digging into it, which really falls into Honeycomb space. >> Yeah, I mean, it sort of does. I mean, at Honeycomb we do what we call observability, which is something a bit larger than just monitoring, right. It's really getting to the point where you can develop an understanding of what your services and what your code do in real life under real load with real users. >> Speaking of John Willis, about what is the role of operations when I don't own the infrastructure, I have to trust someone else to do it. So, bring us in there a little bit, what are some of the challenges people are having, how do they help when they're leveraging? >> Yeah, so something that's very clear about serverless approaches to building things, and especially if you're using something like Lambda, is that, as a software engineer, who writes a function, you are 100% responsible for all of your operations at that point, because the ops people for your stack are behind an API. You are on the other side of that API, and what they do is effectively a black box, which means you have to not only understand what your thing does, you have to understand what they do and how they do it, and it's some means of accessing both those bits of data. So you get what Amazon tells you for Lambda, or what any of the other providers tell you for their functions, but you also have to then understand how your code performs on that specific provider, which means you have to do things like wrap your functions in timers and emit events which go into Kinesis, or wherever else, so that you can track what's going on. >> Yeah, one of the problems, of course, any time you have any layer of abstraction is, if things go wrong, how do you get the expertise to know, how do you get in there, is this even worse in serverless? >> Yes and no, I mean, it depends on how much faith you have in your provider, right? So, one of the companies here put up a chart that shows you the performance, on average, of the call response time for the functions for all of the providers that provide serverless infrastructure. And they're not even remotely consistent. They're not consistent within even a few percentiles. In other words, if you care about performance, and you care about predictability for your function, it's basically impossible to get that from any given provider. >> Alright, so, talk to us, what are you hearing from users these days, what's exciting you in this space? >> Yeah, so what we hear from our users, anyway, at Honeycomb, who are using Lambda, and using serverless functions, is that the ability for them to get visibility into how a function performs is basically the highest priority outside of writing a function itself. Because they don't know what's happening below them, they don't know all the resource allocations at any given point in time by the provider, so the thing they have to go on, for the rest of the black box, is how their own function performs, which means they need the ability to take any given function and either decompose it into parts, which have their own events or metrics or telemetry that they emit, or they need to do that to the entire function from end-to-end. So basically have a concept of, this is an old concept for us, which is an end-to-end check, right? I want to know what happens when a point that I touch with a sim until my entire set of functions are complete at the end. >> Yeah, we're going back to like an IP ping, right? >> That's right, yeah, effectively. >> Today, Honeycomb, do you only support Lambda, do you support some of the other serverless frameworks that are out there? >> So, we are agnostic. So, basically, the way Honeycomb works is that our users instrument their code, and we're not service-only, it could be any code running anywhere, and they emit data, and that data is in the form of structured events, those structured events are consumed by Honeycomb, and then Honeycomb turns around and lets you do fast analysis against it. >> Yeah, you've got a lot of background of, "How do we leverage the knowledge of the crowd?" >> Yeah. >> So many times it's what are people finding when they're really getting involved here, you're tooling and others, what mistakes are they making, how can they get better, faster at what they're doing? >> Yeah, a common mistake that people make is not thinking about what is and is not blocking within their functions, and not understanding the threading model of the underlying stack, and when they should spin up additional functions and split up work, versus when they shouldn't, and the only way to understand that is, one, to read all the damn docs, and two to experiment. >> Yeah. What about the maturity of serverless? There've been a lot of discussions here. I had Mark from Trendade on, we talked about security, and the like, but what do you see, kind of in the maturation cycle, of serverless, anything you've heard, or still things that are looking to get fixed even more? >> Maturity isn't the word that I want to use here, I think it's more interesting to think of it in terms of breadth of capabilities, right? So, all of the serverless offerings for all of the vendors have limitations on either the programming languages you can use or the nature of the functions that can be run or the research allocation you can have. I think there's not a lot of maturity that we're going to see from the vendors other than more consistent performance, what we are going to see maturity in is, from the users' standpoint, of how they construct things. >> Yeah. Any data you can share is just how prevalent serverless is out there in the wild, you know, what's the typical use taste, typical customer kind of order of magnitude, how many people are doing it, and therefore driving discussions? >> Yeah, I have no idea. >> You have no idea about this. >> What I do know is, in our user base, we have some significant users of Honeycomb who are 100% run on Amazon Lambda, but that's my tiny, little sample size. >> Okay, want to give you the final word, serverless conference and serverless in general, what's your take today, what should people be looking at in the next six or 12 months? >> Yeah, so I more-or-less agree with Simon Wardley about this, which is, effectively this is a way for Amazon to eat most of the tech ecosystem, assuming people become dependent on it. >> Alright, well, I always say with theCUBE we like to take those hallway conversations, someone that I've had many hallway conversations with, and over the Twitters, and other ways, it's great to catch up with you, Aneel Lakhani, thanks so much for joining us >> Thank you so much. >> I'm Stu Miniman and thanks for watching theCUBE.

>> Announcer: Live, from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering AWS Summit 2017, brought to you by Amazon Web Services. (bouncy techno music) >> Hi, welcome back to theCUBE, live in San Francisco at the AWS Summit here. I'm Lisa Martin, joined by my co-host Jeff Frick. Our next guest is from Sumo Logic. We have the VP of Product Marketing, Kalyan Ramanathan. Welcome to theCUBE! >> Thank you very much. Very excited to be here. >> Very excited to have you here. So, tell us a little bit about what Sumo Logic is doing with AWS and machine data. What services are you delivering, who's your target audience, all that good stuff. >> Yeah, absolutely. We are a cloud native, i.e., SaaS-based, machine data analytics platform, and what we do is to help our customers manage the operations and security of their machine-critical applications. Right, so we are an entirely AWS-based customer, we've been using AWS since our inception. What we do is to provide machine data and machine learning so that our customers can manage the performance of their applications, right. So, what is machine data, you might ask. So machine data typically includes logs, metrics, events, anything that your application is generating when it is running, when it is serving the enterprise's customers. And what Sumo Logic excels at is to ingest this data. We collect and ingest this data, and then we apply a lot of analytics on that data. We have some patented machine learning technologies that helps us correlate this data, get insights from this data, and then using this data, our customers manage the applications that they are providing to their end customers. >> And it's not just their applications that are co-located at AWS with your application, it's beyond that, I assume. >> Absolutely, I mean, we have customers from, you know, very different walks of life, we have customers who are on-prem, customers who are down the hybrid path and moving to AWS, and customers who are on an AWS. You know, I can rattle off a queue of great names, Pinterest, Twitter, Airbnb, are examples of customers who are born in the cloud. They run on AWS from the very get-go. And they use us today to manage the security and performance of their applications. We have other customers who have migrated to AWS, Scripps Network, the guys behind HGTV, it's a great example of a customer who was running applications in their on-prem data center, and then one day decided that they are a content company, and they don't want to be running their own data center. >> Right. >> And so they wanted to move their applications to the cloud, and they used Sumo Logic to help migrate their applications to AWS. >> What are some of the barriers that you help customers overcome when it comes to maybe that daunting task of migrating services? >> Yeah, that's a great question. You know, the first thing that someone has to do before they start to migrate their applications to the cloud is to understand what is it that they have within the data centers, right. If I don't know what I have, how do I even migrate that to the cloud? The first task is obviously provide visibility into what is within their data center. And that's where Sumo Logic comes in, right. If you deploy Sumo Logic, and if you implement Sumo Logic as a SaaS service, the first thing that we do is to provide you complete visibility into your applications. All the application components, the infrastructures that the application is deployed on, the services that the application may be using. The next thing that you want to do is start to migrate your workload to the cloud. But you want to do this in a very thoughtful way, and what that means is that you start to move your applications and your infrastructure to AWS, but then you do this cut of work to AWS, only when you are convinced about the performance as well as the security of that application in this new environment. So the ability to baseline what you have in your current environment, and then compare it to what it might look like in this new environment within AWS is extremely critical, and what Sumo Logic helped Scripps Network do is to essentially compare and contrast how they are performing in this new environment. And when they were extremely comfortable that their security and their performance was no less in this new environment compared to what they were doing in the data center, they were able to flip that switch and complete the move over to AWS. >> You guys are in an interesting position, because you were born in AWS, essentially, cloud-native, and you have a lot of customers that are running in AWS. And so you guys did a survey, a report, really kind of taking a look at what's actually happening with cloud-native companies running their apps in AWS. I wonder if you can kind of give-- What did you guys find in this thing? >> Yeah, absolutely Jeff. And this is, the report that we put out towards the end of last year, I think is one of the first start leadership reports that gives, you know, people in AWS, a birds-eye view into how are their peers, you know, deploying, architecting, and managing their applications within the AWS environment. So, how did we put this report together? Sumo Logic has over 1200 customers under management today and more than 80% of our customers are, you know, using AWS today. They are implementing their applications within AWS. So what we did was to anonymously mine data from our customers, and publish a report that provides the set of best practices, and the commonly-used techniques and architectures that, you know, the leaders are doing and implementing today as they move to AWS. Now there were some great learnings that we found out as we put this report together, alright. First and foremost, we discovered that the stack, that a customer typically deploys in AWS, is very unlike the stack that they deploy within their on-premise data center. So, how does that work out? I mean, so, many of the AWS customers that we mined here, happen to use Docker extensively within their AWS environment. In fact, 18% of our customers, this was last year, already are using Docker, you know, for the production application. Which is pretty amazing, given that Docker is just, you know, two or three years-- >> Well hopefully Solomon and Ben are watching, we actually have another crew with Docker-- >> Absolutely. >> Right now. >> We'll have to report that back. >> You know, Docker is all the rage, no doubt about, and we are seeing, you know, increased adoption of Docker across the board, among all of, for AWS customer. The other thing that we found very interesting was that the applications that you may typically expect to succeed in your data center, are not quite doing that well in the AWS world. I'll give you a good example, in the database world, you would expect to see Oracle and SQL Server, you know, ruling the root within a typical data center today. You go on AWS, that's not the case at all. The NoSQL databases, right, are the leading vendors of databases within the AWS world. MongoDB, Redis, you know, are well ahead of Oracle and SQL Server when it comes to AWS. When it comes to web server technologies. You know, Nginx and Apache, you know, are well ahead of IAS, which happens to be the web server of choice within the data center world. Now we've also seen, you know, pretty amazing adoption of Lambda Technologies within AWS. I mean, that's to be expected, a certain bit, because I know AWS is definitely pushing it, but again, 12% use it within a production environment. You know, one year into Lambda, GA in some sense, is pretty astonishing numbers, so-- >> What was your takeaway? Was it because of the applications that are deployed, is it because, kind of, historical legacy of what Amazon offered, kind of for an on-prem versus an on-prem, you know, those early business decisions, not so much today, but, you know, years ago, when there was the security and public cloud, you know, it was a very different conversation three years ago. What were some of your takeaways as to the why? >> The takeaways that I think, there's a meta takeaway here, and let me start with that. The meta takeaway is that as people are building applications in AWS, native AWS applications, or as they are migrating their applications from an on-prem data center to, let's say, AWS, this is giving IT architects the opportunity rethink how their applications are constructed. You know, they are no longer bound by the old shackles of, if I have to use a database, it's Oracle or SQL Server. If I have to use a IIS web server, it's IIS or some other option. >> Right. >> So, once you are unchained from these shackles, you have the ability now to rethink and re-architect your application from scratch to target and to focus on this amazing new world that the cloud, you know, offers. So that's the, that's a big meta takeaway for us, and, what we have learned is that once you are unbound, you can come up with new technologies and new ways of doing things that are adopted and better suitable for this new space. That's one. The second thing that we do see, obviously, is that the vendors of yesterday are not yet focused on the cloud technologies. It may be heresy to say this, but, you know, Oracle has not found a cult religion until very recently. And that's why you see Oracle as not doing a lot, or not making a dent in, you know, in cloud places or in cloud technologies like AWS. >> Right, right, it's just interesting, that procurement angle, because, as anyone who's ever been at a relatively small company, trying to sell into a big company, one of the biggest hurdles is actually just getting on the procurement list, becoming an approved vendor. So, it's interesting to think about that from the other side as a consumer. That if now you are unshackled from the approved vendor list, and you, because if now the only approved vendor is Amazon, and now you have this whole breadth of things to choose from within that ecosystem, that, how that could really impact your behavior and what you actually buy, build, and deliver. >> Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great point too. I mean, there are economics involved here, there is the friction of adopting certain technologies to AWS, which also makes it a little harder to adopt some of the more traditional software applications in the AWS world. Now that's why AWS obviously has come up with the notion of a marketplace, and Sumo Logic, you know, we face the same challenges when we are signing up customers, right. We have some big-name customers who, you know, if we have to sell into those customers, you know, we have to get into their procurement list, we have to, you know, go through a few rigamaroles-- >> Jeff: Right, Right >> To even get into that list. That's where, you know, getting into the AWS marketplace has really helped us a lot. Now you have one vendor, you have one relationship, you have one payment terms, and that vendor is already on your approved list. And so, hey, Sumo Logic comes along with the rights. >> So, definitely a simplification there, which was one of the themes in the keynote this morning, as well as this unshackling. What are your objectives for the report, are you going to be either going back to some of your existing customers or to new customers to show them all of these best practices that you've developed? >> Yeah, I mean, I think our goal of this report, obviously, first thing from us is to make this an annual report, we plan to do this every year, write it on reinvent. And what we want to do is to provide our community, who are mostly AWS shops today. We do have a few Microsoft Azure customers, and we are starting to see some Google Cloud platform customers too. But what we want to do is become the hot leader, who not only serves his customers, but also provides them a road map, in terms of, you know, how should they be adopting these cloud technologies. >> Jeff: Right. >> What are their leading-edge peers like the Twitters and the Airbnbs and the Pinterests of the world starting to do. Obviously, in a anonymized way, we don't want to be calling out any of our customers by name, but here is how you need to think about architecting your applications in the cloud. There is an opportunity, as we said, to, you know, break open from the chains of the past, redo this. We want to help our customer redo this well. >> I'd love to get your perspective, what are the, you know, and I think we're past the security and some of those kind of historic impediments, to you will, to public cloud adoption, but one of the ones that still comes up all the time is the rent versus buy, and you know I think it goes back to the tested roots of, yes, it's great to rent for awhile, but at some point in time, when you hit some scale-- >> Kalyan: Right. >> The business model flips and now it's more economical to buy and operate your own. But what we see in the slide that Werner showed today, there's plenty of customers, Netflix, of course always being the flagship, that are giant, and must have a giant AWS bill every month, who have chosen to still leverage them as their IT platform, and not flip the switch to a purchase. So you know, kind of either from the survey or anecdotally with your own customers, and you as a company, you know, what impacts that decision and do you have, like this review every couple of years, when those CFOs go, "Ah, we're paying these guys a lot of money," should we build our own stuff, but clearly you haven't gone that route. >> I mean, there are definitely enterprises who are still on-prem today, I think the last stat that I heard from Gartner is that 20% of enterprises have flipped over to public cloud infrastructure. 80% is still running things in the cloud, you know, within the data center, maybe a private cloud or maybe in the traditional old ways of running applications. But that tide is definitely turning. And what we see from many of our customers is that there are many reasons for customers or enterprises to now start adopting public cloud. Economics is obviously one, I mean, there is a big advantage of going from Capex to Opex, it obviously makes a lot of sense to do that. The second thing is that what we see is that it's not just about moving the application to the cloud, it's also having the right tooling around the application that can now allow you to manage that application, manage the performance of that application, the security of that application, the deployment of that application in the public cloud environment. And that has taken a while to mature, and I think we are already there, I mean, in an event like this, you can see so many companies come up with new, innovative ways of managing applications within the public cloud environment. And I think we are there now, I mean, the pendulum has swung, and we have enough technologies now to do this with a very high level of confidence. The third thing I would say, and you know, we keep hearing this from our customers again and again, and you know, I brought up Scripps as a great example, you know, we just did a public webinar with a company called Hootsuite, and, you know, they are a social media management platform company, and one of the comments from the Hootsuite VP of Operations was very telling, he said, "Look, I can do this, I can run my own stuff, but do I really want to do it, right? I am a social media company, I want to provide the best application to my customers. I'm not in the business of running a management technology, you know, on-prem or even, for that matter, you know, within the four walls of the company itself. What I want to do is focus on where I can deliver the best value to my customer, and that is by delivering a great social media application." >> Lisa: Exactly. >> "And I want to let the infrastructure game, the management game to the experts," right. >> Focusing on their core competencies to really drive more business. >> I mean I think we are definitely starting to see that, there are certain verticals that have adopted this, you know, wholeheartedly, retail is a good one, media is a good one, there are also cost pressures in those verticals that are forcing them to adopt this at a much faster pace. Financial is kicking and screaming, but they are also getting on board. >> But definitely from a thematic perspective, you talk about maturation, maturation of the services, maturation of the technologies, and maturation of the user. So we want to thank you so much for stopping by theCUBE, great to have you here. >> Thank you very much, I mean, it's been a great conversation with you guys, and it's a great event. >> Excellent, well for my co-host Jeff Frick, I am Lisa Martin, you're watching this on theCUBE live in San Francisco as the AWS Summit. Stick around, we'll be right back. (bouncy techno music)