(techno music) >> From Cambridge, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium 2019, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Welcome back to MIT CDOIQ. The CDO Information Quality Conference. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with my co-host, Paul Gillin. This is our day two of our two day coverage. Jean Ross is here. She's the principle research scientist at MIT CISR, Jean good to see you again. >> Nice to be here! >> Welcome back. Okay, what do all these acronyms stand for, I forget. MIT CISR. >> CISR which we pronounce scissor, is the Center for Information Systems Research. It's a research center that's been at MIT since 1974, studying how big companies use technology effectively. >> So and, what's your role as a research scientist? >> As a research scientist, I work with both researchers and with company leaders to understand what's going on out there, and try to present some simple succinct ideas about how companies can generate greater value from information technology. >> Well, I guess not much has changed in information technology since 1974. (laughing) So let's fast forward to the big, hot trend, digital transformation, digital business. What's the difference between a business and a digital business? >> Right now, you're hoping there's no difference for you and your business. >> (chuckling) Yeah, for sure. >> The main thing about a digital business is it's being inspired by technology. So in the past, we would establish a strategy, and then we would check out technology and say, okay, how can technology make us more effective with that strategy? Today, and this has been driven a lot by start-ups, we have to stop and say, well wait a minute, what is technology making possible? Because if we're not thinking about it, there sure are a lot of students at MIT who are, and we're going to miss the boat. We're going to get Ubered if you will, somebody's going to think of a value proposition that we should be offering and aren't, and we'll be left in the dust. So, our digital businesses are those that are recognizing the opportunities that digital technologies make possible. >> Now, and what about data? In terms of the role of digital business, it seems like that's an underpinning of a digital business. Is it not? >> Yeah, the single biggest capability that digital technologies provide, is ubiquitous data that's readily accessible anytime. So when we think about being inspired by technology, we could reframe that as inspired by the availability of ubiquitous data that's readily accessible. >> Your premise about the difference between digitization and digital business is interesting. It's more than just a sematic debate. Do companies now, when companies talk about digital transformation these days, in fact, are most of them of thinking of digitization rather than really transformative business change? >> Yeah, this is so interesting to me. In 2006, we wrote a book that said, you need to become more agile, and you need to rely on information technology to get you there. And these are basic things like SAP and salesforce.com and things like that. Just making sure that your core processes are disciplined and reliable and predictable. We said this in 2006. What we didn't know is that we were explaining digitization, which is very effective use of technology in your underlying process. Today, when somebody says to me, we're going digital, I'm thinking about the new value propositions, the implications of the data, right? And they're often actually saying they're finally doing what we thought they should do in 2006. The problem is, in 2006, we said get going on this, it's a long journey. This could take you six, 10 years to accomplish. And then we gave examples of companies that took six to 10 years. LEGO, and USAA and really great companies. And now, companies are going, "Ah, you know, we really ought to do that". They don't have six to 10 years. They get this done now, or they're in trouble, and it's still a really big deal. >> So how realistic is it? I mean, you've got big established companies that have got all these information silos, as we've been hearing for the last two days, just pulling their information together, knowing what they've got is a huge challenge for them. Meanwhile, you're competing with born on the web, digitally native start-ups that don't have any of that legacy, is it really feasible for these companies to reinvent themselves in the way you're talking about? Or should they just be buying the companies that have already done it? >> Well good luck with buying, because what happens is that when a company starts up, they can do anything, but they can't do it to scale. So most of these start-ups are going to have to sell themselves because they don't know anything about scale. And the problem is, the companies that want to buy them up know about the scale of big global companies but they don't know how to do this seamlessly because they didn't do the basic digitization. They relied on basically, a lot of heroes in their company to pull of the scale. So now they have to rely more on technology than they did in the past, but they still have a leg up if you will, on the start-up that doesn't want to worry about the discipline of scaling up a good idea. They'd rather just go off and have another good idea, right? They're perpetual entrepreneurs if you will. So if we look at the start-ups, they're not really your concern. Your concern is the very well run company, that's been around, knows how to be inspired by technology and now says, "Oh I see what you're capable of doing, "or should be capable of doing. "I think I'll move into your space". So this, the Amazon's, and the USAA's and the LEGO's who say "We're good at what we do, "and we could be doing more". We're watching Schneider Electric, Phillips's, Ferovial. These are big ole companies who get digital, and they are going to start moving into a lot of people's territory. >> So let's take the example of those incumbents that you've used as examples of companies that are leaning into digital, and presumably doing a good job of it, they've got a lot of legacy debt, as you know people call it technical debt. The question I have is how they're using machine intelligence. So if you think about Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, Google, they own horizontal technologies around machine intelligence. The incumbents that you mentioned, do not. Now do they close the gap? They're not going to build their own A.I. They're going to buy it, and then apply it. It's how they apply it that's going to be the difference. So do you agree with that premise, and where are they getting it, do they have the skill sets to do it, how are they closing that gap? >> They're definitely partnering. When you say they're not going to build any of it, that's actually not quite true. They're going to build a lot around the edges. They'll rely on partners like Microsoft and Google to provide some of the core, >> Yes, right. >> But they are bringing in their own experts to take it to the, basically to the customer level. How do I take, let me just take Schneider Electric for an example. They have gone from being an electrical equipment manufacturer, to a purveyor of energy management solutions. It's quite a different value proposition. To do that, they need a lot of intelligence. Some of it is data analytics of old, and some of it is just better representation on dashboards and things like that. But there is a layer of intelligence that is new, and it is absolutely essential to them by relying on partners and their own expertise in what they do for customers, and then co-creating a fair amount with customers, they can do things that other companies cannot. >> And they're developing a software presumably, a SAS revenue stream as part of that, right? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> How about the innovators dilemma though, the problem that these companies often have grown up, they're very big, they're very profitable, they see disruption coming, but they are unable to make the change, their shareholders won't let them make the change, they know what they have to do, but they're simply not able to do it, and then they become paralyzed. Is there a -- I mean, looking at some of the companies you just mentioned, how did they get over that mindset? >> This is real leadership from CEO's, who basically explain to their boards and to their investors, this is our future, we are... we're either going this direction or we're going down. And they sell it. It's brilliant salesmanship, and it's why when we go out to study great companies, we don't have that many to choose from. I mean, they are hard to find, right? So you are at such a competitive advantage right now. If you understand, if your own internal processes are cleaned up and you know how to rely on the E.R.P's and the C.R.M's, to get that done, and on the other hand, you're using the intelligence to provide value propositions, that new technologies and data make possible, that is an incredibly powerful combination, but you have to invest. You have to convince your boards and your investors that it's a good idea, you have to change your talent internally, and the biggest surprise is, you have to convince your customers that they want something from you that they never wanted before. So you got a lot of work to do to pull this off. >> Right now, in today's economy, the economy is sort of lifting all boats. But as we saw when the .com implosion happened in 2001, often these breakdown gives birth to great, new companies. Do you see that the next recession, which is inevitably coming, will be sort of the turning point for some of these companies that can't change? >> It's a really good question. I do expect that there are going to be companies that don't make it. And I think that they will fail at different rates based on their, not just the economy, but their industry, and what competitors do, and things like that. But I do think we're going to see some companies fail. We're going to see many other companies understand that they are too complex. They are simply too complex. They cannot do things end to end and seamlessly and present a great customer experience, because they're doing everything. So we're going to see some pretty dramatic changes, we're going to see failure, it's a fair assumption that when we see the economy crash, it's also going to contribute, but that's, it's not the whole story. >> But when the .com blew up, you had the internet guys that actually had a business model to make money, and the guys that didn't, the guys that didn't went away, and then you also had the incumbents that embrace the internet, so when we came out of that .com downturn, you had the survivors, who was Google and eBay, and obviously Amazon, and then you had incumbent companies who had online retailing, and e-tailing and e-commerce etc, who thrived. I would suspect you're going to see something similar, but I wonder what you guys think. The street today is rewarding growth. And we got another near record high today after the rate cut yesterday. And so, but companies that aren't making money are getting rewarded, 'cause they're growing. Well when the recession comes, those guys are going to get crushed. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> And you're going to have these other companies emerge, and you'll see the winners, are going to be those ones who have truly digitized, not just talking the talk, or transformed really, to use your definition. That's what I would expect. I don't know, what do you think about that? >> I totally agree. And, I mean, we look at industries like retail, and they have been fundamentally transformed. There's still lots of opportunities for innovation, and we're going to see some winners that have kind of struggled early but not given up, and they're kind of finding their footing. But we're losing some. We're losing a lot, right? I think the surprise is that we thought digital was going to replace what we did. We'd stop going to stores, we'd stop reading books, we wouldn't have newspapers anymore. And it hasn't done that. Its only added, it hasn't taken anything away. >> It could-- >> I don't think the newspaper industry has been unscathed by digital. >> No, nor has retail. >> Nor has retail, right. >> No, no no, not unscathed, but here's the big challenge. Is if I could substitute, If I could move from newspaper to online, I'm fine. You don't get to do that. You add online to what you've got, right? And I think this right now is the big challenge. Is that nothing's gone away, at least yet. So we have to sustain the business we are, so that it can feed the business we want to be. And we have to make that transition into new capabilities. I would argue that established companies need to become very binary, that there are people that do nothing but sustain and make better and better and better, who they are. While others, are creating the new reality. You see this in auto companies by the way. They're creating not just the autonomous automobiles, but the mobility services, the whole new value propositions, that will become a bigger and bigger part of their revenue stream, but right now are tiny. >> So, here's the scary thing to me. And again, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. And I've been an outspoken critic of Liz Warren's attack on big tech. >> Absolutely. >> I just think if they're breaking the law, and they're really acting like monopolies, the D.O.J and F.T.C should do something, but to me, you don't just break up big tech because they're good capitalists. Having said that, one of the things that scares me is, when you see Apple getting into payment systems, Amazon getting into grocery and logistics. Digital allows you to do something that's never happened before which is, you can traverse industries. >> Yep. >> Yeah, absolutely >> You used to have this stack of industries, and if you were in that industry, you're stuck in healthcare, you're stuck in financial services or whatever it was. And today, digital allows you to traverse those. >> It absolutely does. And so in theory, Amazon and Apple and Facebook and Google, they can attack virtually any industry and they kind of are. >> Yeah they kind are. I would certainly not break up anything. I would really look hard though at acquisitions, because I think that's where some of this is coming from. They can stop the overwhelming growth, but I do think you're right. That you get these opportunities from digital that are just so much easier because they're basically sharing information and technology, not building buildings and equipment and all that kind of thing. But I think there all limits to all this. I do not fear these companies. I think there, we need some law, we need some regulations, they're fine. They are adding a lot of value and the great companies, I mean, you look at the Schneider's and the Phillips, yeah they fear what some of them can do, but they're looking forward to what they provide underneath. >> Doesn't Cloud change the equation here? I mean, when you think of something like Amazon getting into the payments business, or Google in the payments business, you know it used to be that the creating of global payments processing network, just going global was a huge barrier to entry. Now, you don't have nearly that same level of impediment right? I mean the cloud eliminates much of the traditional barrier. >> Yeah, but I'll tell you what limits it, is complexity. Every company we've studied gets a little over anxious and becomes too complex, and they cannot run themselves effectively anymore. It happens to everyone. I mean, remember when we were terrified about what Microsoft was going to become? But then it got competition because it's trying to do so many things, and somebody else is offering, Sales Force and others, something simpler. And this will happen to every company that gets overly ambitious. Something simpler will come along, and everybody will go "Oh thank goodness". Something simpler. >> Well with Microsoft, I would argue two things. One is the D.O.J put some handcuffs on them , and two, with Steve Ballmer, I wouldn't get his nose out of Windows, and then finally stuck on a (mumbles) (laughter) >> Well it's they had a platform shift. >> Well this is exactly it. They will make those kind of calls . >> Sure, and I think that talks to their legacy, that they won't end up like Digital Equipment Corp or Wang and D.G, who just ignored the future and held onto the past. But I think, a colleague of ours, David Moschella wrote a book, it's called "Seeing Digital". And his premise was we're moving from a world of remote cloud services, to one where you have to, to use your word, ubiquitous digital services that you can access upon which you can build your business and new business models. I mean, the simplest example is Waves, you mentioned Uber. They're using Cloud, they're using OAuth.in with Google, Facebook or LinkedIn and they've got a security layer, there's an A.I layer, there's all your BlockChain, mobile, cognitive, it's all these sets of services that are now ubiquitous on which you're building, so you're leveraging, he calls it the matrix, to the extent that these companies that you're studying, these incumbents can leverage that matrix, they should be fine. >> Yes. >> The part of the problem is, they say "No, we're going to invent everything ourselves, we're going to build it all ourselves". To use Andy Jassy's term, it's non-differentiated heavy lifting, slows them down, but there's no reason why they can't tap that matrix, >> Absolutely >> And take advantage of it. Where I do get scared is, the Facebooks, Apples, Googles, Amazons, they're matrix companies, their data is at their core, and they get this. It's not like they're putting data around the core, data is the core. So your thoughts on that? I mean, it looks like your slide about disruption, it's coming. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> No industry is safe. >> Yeah, well I'll go back to the complexity argument. We studied complexity at length, and complexity is a killer. And as we get too ambitious, and we're constantly looking for growth, we start doing things that create more and more tensions in our various lines of business, causes to create silos, that then we have to coordinate. I just think every single company that, no cloud is going to save us from this. It, complexity will kill us. And we have to keep reminding ourselves to limit that complexity, and we've just not seen the example of the company that got that right. Sooner or later, they just kind of chop them, you know, create problems for themselves. >> Well isn't that inherent though in growth? >> Absolutely! >> It's just like, big companies slow down. >> That's right. >> They can't make decisions as quickly. >> That's right. >> I haven't seen a big company yet that moves nimbly. >> Exactly, and that's the complexity thing-- >> Well wait a minute, what about AWS? They're a 40 billion dollar company. >> Oh yeah, yeah, yeah >> They're like the agile gorilla. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> I mean, I think they're breaking the rule, and my argument would be, because they have data at their core, and they've got that, its a bromide, but that common data model, that they can apply now to virtually any business. You know, we're been expecting, a lot of people have been expecting that growth to attenuate. I mean it hasn't yet, we'll see. But they're like a 40 billion dollar firm-- >> No that's a good example yeah. >> So we'll see. And Microsoft, is the other one. Microsoft is demonstrating double digit growth. For such a large company, it's astounding. I wonder, if the law of large numbers is being challenged, so. >> Yeah, well it's interesting. I do think that what now constitutes "so big" that you're really going to struggle with the complexity. I think that has definitely been elevated a lot. But I still think there will be a point at which human beings can't handle-- >> They're getting away. >> Whatever level of complexity we reach, yeah. >> Well sure, right because even though this great new, it's your point. Cloud technology, you know, there's going to be something better that comes along. Even, I think Jassy might have said, If we had to do it all over again, we would have built the whole thing on lambda functions >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Not on, you know so there you go. >> So maybe someone else does that-- >> Yeah, there you go. >> So now they've got their hybrid. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> You know maybe it'll take another ten years, but well Jean, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE, >> it was great to have you. >> My pleasure! >> Appreciate you coming back. >> Really fun to talk. >> All right, keep right there everybody, Paul Gillin and Dave Villante, we'll be right back from MIT CDOIQ, you're watching theCUBE. (chuckles) (techno music)

>>Welcome to the cubes, continuing coverage of AWS reinvent 2021 find Lisa Martin and we are running one of the industry's most important and largest hybrid tech events with AWS in this ecosystem partners. This year, we have two live sets, two remote sites over 100 guests talking about the next decade in cloud innovation. And we're excited to be joined by Patrick Jeanne, the CTO of OutSystems Patrick. Welcome to the program. >>Thank you. I appreciate being one of those 100 guests, >>One of the 100, one of the elite, 100, we'll say it like that. Right? So, so OutSystems has some revolutionary news. You guys are saying, you know, what developer experience needs to change? Tell us more. >>It does. I mean, it needs to change. And I've been in the industry developing applications for too many years dimensions basically since I was 12 years old writing software and, you know, going over that time and thinking about it, doing the traditional software development route. So many applications that take too long was, you know, costly to build so much risk involved in it. Eventually it didn't meet all the requirements. And if you look at the investment we make in software, which is important, I mean, software is a, is a unique differentiator for, for businesses. That investment has such a high risk and a high cost, and that needs to change and it needs to change just because of the complexity that is in that process inherent in it that's. And that is what we are doing and OutSystems is tackling that problem. And, um, from a business standpoint, it must change. >>It must change that that is strong words there. So talk to me about what you're announcing, what, what were the gaps in the market customer feedback? Was it, or were there any catalysts from the pandemic going we've got to change this developer experience and this is the time >>For sure. I mean, if you think about from the pandemic and I mean, we were on a journey for digital transformation. We've been on this journey for a number of years and it really accelerated that the experiences that we have with each other, with you and me, we're not the same studio today. I mean, there's there reasons that we have used this experience remote, we have a technology that can do it, the pandemic accelerated that. And so, so much of the experiences we have are digital experiences. And if you think about it, there's a device in between us. There's going to be a device in between all the people viewing what we're looking at, that experience that, uh, that they will have with us will be basically surfaced through an application on that device. And the pandemic has really accelerated that. And that's an area that we play in, obviously for what's considered low code application development. >>And if you just think about application development in general, that's what powers all of these experiences. And going back to that, you know, statement about that, it needs to change if we need these experiences to be diverse, if we need these experiences to be meaningful, if we need them to make sure that when people engage, as far as what that device is, something that brings, you know, delight and pleasure to them, we need developers across the board. Investing in that today, there is a very constrained market for professional developers, but because of the inherent complexity in software development. And so if you think about how that's almost almost you're limiting access to the people who can create those experiences, that's not a good situation. There's about 25 million developers in the world that would consider themselves developers today, 7, 8, 9, 10 billion devices out there. Think of that disparity between those two numbers. >>And so we need a larger number of people to actually develop applications. So that experience can be much more diverse. We need to expose development to many more people. That is the problem today with software development is that it is complex. It is too specialized. It's too inherit as far as with failure when you get it together. And so either you shy away from that as an organization or as an individual to do development, or you go on these very long development as far as cycles to actually create these applications. What we do is we take the approach of let's make it very simple to get into, you know, some terms and call it citizen developer, low code, basically all they're saying is let's, let's reduce the risk of development. Let's go into a process where we make it accessible to more and more people. You can go through and develop applications with the lower risk. You can build change into that process and you can get value into end users as rapidly as possible. So that's, that is the value proposition. That is what needs to change >>Strong value proposition well said, Patrick, talking about reducing the complexity, uh, the risk as well. So, so go ahead and crack crack open what you guys are actually announcing today. >>Yeah, for sure. So with, we we've been doing this for many years, we have, um, software development, we have 14 million plus as far as end-users using applications that have been developed with the Al systems platform, what we're announcing is taking some of the great benefits that we have to what you'd consider as the first part of that low code process, where you have a, you have a developer that has an idea, and there's a canvas in front of you. You know, you're, you're an artist, right? But again, this is what you are as a developer. And so you go in and you create that application. We've been doing this for many years and it works really well. But thing that we're improving upon now is the ability to do that and scale that out to millions of end-users 10 millions of end-users. So if you think about that inherent speed of developing an application, using a platform like OutSystems, we're taking that same concept and rolling that into an internet scale application, hosting architecture. >>So any developer that uses our systems, basically like it would be comparable to a traditional development team that has application architects, cloud architects, security, engineers, database engineers, a whole team of very smart individuals that generally the, the biggest technology companies in the world can put together. Most companies can't do that. You don't have access to that type of that type of skillset. And so we're providing that with project Neo, which is what we're announcing today in our, um, at our user conference and customer conference, is this brand new as far as platform that allows you to build these applications at scale. And this is initially built on AWS using all the great AWS technologies. If you look at what AWS has done and provided to developers today, it's amazing. It is absolutely amazing. The amount of technologies that you can leverage. It's also daunting because as a traditional developer, you have to go in and choose, you know, what do you do? It's like, there's just massive cognitive load as far as upfront when you're going to design and application and what type of messaging what's at the data store. Well, how do I host my application? What type of network, you know, as far as security do I use, we're taking all that heavy lifting, all that undifferentiated, heavy lifting off of the developers, putting it into the project, Neo platform, allowing a single developer or a small group of developers to actually leverage that best in class architecture on AWS today. >>So when you're talking to developers, what are some of the things that you described as the unique differentiators of project Neo? It sounds like this was really apt and apt time for change, but when you're talking to those folks, what do you say? You know, 1, 2, 3, these are the things that make project Neo unique. >>Yeah. So you're the first is don't worry about the application architecture. Like I mentioned, don't when you go in that, the idea, the concept of that application and what it means to, to deliver some value, whether it's into a business or a hobby or whatever. I mean, however, you're developing application, you're doing it for a reason. You want that value to come out as quickly as possible. You want that experience. And so that first thing is you don't have to worry about the architecture anymore. So in the past, you know, you'd have to think about if it's a very large application, it's millions and millions of end-users. How do you structure that? How do you put it together? That concern is removed from you in that process? The other thing is we solve the problem of software disintegration. So with traditional development, when you develop an application and you get it into the hands of end, users get immediately starts to disintegrate. >>So there will be bugs that will appear. There will be, as far as, um, security flaws that will come up services that you use will become deprecated. We'll swap out cloud services, you know, AWS or Azure or Google, we'll swap out cloud services with different services behind the scenes version that we new versions of those that is software disintegration. As soon as you develop software today and all of these beautiful cloud services that you use and components, they often something will become outdated almost by the time you release it. A lot of times with software development projects, it literally is you start with some version or some component before you can get that out in a traditional mode. Something becomes outdated. We solve that issue. What I like to call software disintegration, we, as far as our systems, ensure we invest in that platform. And so when we need to change out those components, so services, those versions fix is for a security flaws, fixed bugs. >>We do that and it seamless. And so your application, you do not have to rewrite your application. You do not have to go through that process as a tradition, as a developer on our systems like you would, as your traditional developer, we solve that software disintegration issue. So it is it's, it's very empowering to developers to not have to worry about that. There are many, you look at the numbers today about how much is invested in innovation versus maintenance. You know, a lot of companies start out at 70% innovation, 30% as far as maintenance. And then over time that flips and you'll get to 30% of your time spent on innovations development, 70% maintenance, that burden we removed that burden. >>Those are some really powerful statements protect that you mean, I really liked the way that you described software disintegration. I've actually never heard that term before. And it kind of reminded me of, you know, when you buy a brand new car, you drive it off. The lot the value goes down right away, then before you even get things out. And on the consumer side, we know that as soon as we buy the newest iPhone, the next one's going to be out, or there's some part of it, that's going to be outdated in terms of technical debt. I was reading a stat that technical debt is expected to reach and costs businesses 5 trillion us dollars over the next 10 years. How does OutSystems helps customers address the challenges with technical debt and even reduce it? >>Yeah. If you think about the guy, the truest sense of technical debt, it's a, it's a decision that you make in the development process to basically, you know, load up the future with some work that you don't want to do right now. And so we're solving that issue where number one, we, you don't even have to make that decision. So you can go back to that concept of removing that cognitive load of, do I get the software out right now or do I get it out in the right way? And that's really what technical debt technical debt is saying. I need to get it out now. And there are some things I want to do that it'd be better if I did them now, but I'm going to go ahead and push that out into the future. You don't have to do that today with us. >>And so what happens with our systems? We invest in that platform, and this is hard. I mean, this is not an easy thing to do. This is why we have some of the best and brightest engineers focusing on this process at the heart of this, not to get too technical, but the heart of this is what we call the true change engine. But then, um, within our platform, we go through and we look at all of the changes that you need to make. So if you think of that concept of technical debt of like, oh, I want to get this into the hands of man users, but I don't want to invest in the time to do something right. It's always done right. As far as with the OutSystems platform. So we take that, we look at the intent of your change. So it's like a, it's like a process where you tell us the intent. >>When you, as a application developer, you're designing an application, you tell us the intent of the application is to look and feel. It could be some business processes can be some integrations. We determine what's the best way to do that. And then once again, from a software disintegration standpoint, we continue to invest in all the right ways to do that the best way possible. And so, I mean, we have customers that have written applications. That's 10, 15 years ago, they're still using our platform with those same applications they've added to them, but they actually have not rewritten those applications. And so if you think about the normal traditional development process, the technical debt incurred over that type of lifetime would be enormous with us. There's no technical debt. They're still using the same application. They have simply added capabilities to it. We invest in that platform. So they don't have to >>So big business outcomes there, obviously from a developer productivity perspective, but from the company wide perspective, the ability to eliminate technical debt, some significant opportunities there. Talk to me about the existing OutSystems customers. When are they going to be able to take advantage of this? What is the migration or upgrade path that they can take? >>Yeah. And so it's, it was very important to me and, and, uh, and the team, as far as our systems, to be able to integrate, to innovate as far as for customers, without disrupting customers. And we've probably all been through this path of great new technology is awesome. But then to actually utilize that technology when you're a current customer, it creates pain. And so we've invested heavily in making sure that the process is pain-free so you can use project Niamh. So we are announcing it as it was in public preview, as far as now, and then we will release it from GA as far as in the first quarter of next year. So over this timeframe, you'll be able to get in and try it out and all that continue to use your current version, which is OutSystems 11. So what we, what we affectionately call it 11, as far as Alice systems, Al systems, 11 version, and continued to use, and you can continue to use that today. >>Side-by-side and coexistence with the project, Neo and project Neo is a code name. So we will, we will have an official product name is for as at launch, but it's our it's. Our affectionate is kind of a unofficial mascot as Neo. So we call it project Neo bit of a fun thing, and you can use it side by side. And then in the future, you'll be able to migrate applications over, or you can just continue to coexist. I mean, we see a very long lifetime for OutSystems 11, it's a different platform, different technology behind the scenes project, Neos, Kubernetes base, Lennox containers. Based once again on the bill, we went in with the, just looked at it and said, rearchitect re-imagined, how would you do this? If you had the best and brightest, as far as engineers, architects, um, you know, we have, which we do, you know, very smart in those people. >>And we did that. And so we did that for our customers. And so Neo is that how systems 11 still a great choice. If you have applications on it, you can use it. And we have, we anticipate that customers will actually side by side, develop on both in which we have some customers in preview today. And that's the process that they have. They will develop on 11, they will develop on the Neo and they will continue to do that. And there's no, we, we are dedicated to making sure that there's no disruption and no pain in that process. And then when customers are ready to migrate over, if that's what they choose, we'll help them migrate over. >>You make it sound easy. And I was wondering if project Neo had anything to do with the new matrix movie, I just saw the trailer for it the other day. >>It was a happy coincidence. It is not easy. Let me, let me be clear. It is something we have been working on for three years and really this last year really kicked into high gear. And, um, you know, a lot of behind the scenes work, obviously for us, but once again, that's our value proposition. It's we do the hard work. So developers and customers don't have to do that hard work, uh, but no relations in the L I love, I do love the matrix movies. So it's a, it's a nice coincidence. >>It is a nice coincidence. Last question, Patrick, for you, you know, as we wrap up the calendar year 2021, we head into 20, 22. I think we're all very hopeful that 2022 will be a better year than the last two. What are some of the things that you see as absolutely critical for enterprises? What are they most concerned about right now? >>Yeah, I think it's look, I mean, it's, obviously it has been a crazy couple of years. And, um, and if you think about what enterprises want, I mean, they want to provide, uh, a great experiences for their customers, a great experience for their employees. Once again, digital transformation, we're where you don't even kind of talk about digital transformation more because we're in it. And I think that customers need to make sure that the experiences they provide these digital experiences are the best possible experiences. And these are differentiators. These are differentiators for employees is, are differentiators for customers. I believe that software is one of the big differentiators for businesses today and going forward, and that will continue to be so we're where businesses may be invested in supply chains and invested in certain types of technologies. Business will continue to invest in software because software is that differentiator. >>And if you look at where we fit, you can go, you can go buy, you know, some great satisfied where my software as a service off the shelf in the end, you're just like every other business you bought the same thing that everybody else has bought. You can go the traditional development route, where you invest a bunch of money. It's a high risk, takes a long time. And once again, you may not get what you want. We believe what is most important to businesses. Get that unique software that fits like a glove that is great for employees is great for their customers. And it is a unique differentiator for them. And I really see that in 2022, that's going to be big and, and going forward. They're the legs for that type of investment that companies make and their return on that is huge. >>I agree with you on that in terms of software as a differentiator. No, we're seeing every company become a software company in every industry these days to be first to survive in the last 20 months and now to be competitive, it's really kind of a must have. So Patrick, thank you for joining me on the program, talking about project Neo GA in quarter of calendar year 22 exciting stuff. We appreciate your feedback and your insights and congratulations on project Neil. Thanks, Lisa. Appreciate it for Patrick Jean I'm Lisa Martin, and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of re-invent 2021.

>>Live from Las Vegas. It's the cube covering UI path forward Americas 2019 brought to you by UI path. >>We're back in Las Vegas. UI path forward three. You're watching the cube, the leader in live tech coverage. Bobby Patrick is here. He's the COO of UI path. Welcome. Hi Dave. Good to see it to be here. Wow. Great to have the cube here again. Right? Q loves these hot shows like this. I mean this is, you've said Gardner hasn't done the fastest growing software segment you've seen in the data that we share from ETR. You guys are off the chart in terms of net score. It's happening. I hanging onto the rocket ship. How's it feel? Well it's crazy. I mean it's great. You all have seen some of the growth along the way too, right? I mean we had our first forward event less than two years ago and you know about 500 plus plus non UI path and people then go year later. It was Miami USY. >>There's probably a lot. Cube I think was Miami right yet and a, and that was a great event, but that was more in the 13 1400 range. This one's almost 3000 and the most amazing part about it was we had 8% attrition from the registrations. Yeah. That's never seen that we're averaging 18% of 20% for all of our, most of our events worldwide. But 8% the commitment is unbelievable. Even 18 to to 20% is very good. I mean normally you'll see 25 to sometimes as high as 50% yeah. It just underscores the heat. >> Well I think what's also great, other stats that you might find interesting. So over 50% of the attendees here are exec. Our senior executives, like for the first time we actually had S you know, C level executive CHRs and CEOs on stage. Right. You could feel the interest level. Now of course we want RPA developers at events too, right? >>But this show really does speak, I think to the bigger value propositions and the bigger business transformation opportunity from RPA. And I mean, you've come so far where no one knew RPA two years ago to the CIO of Morgan Stanley on stage, just warning raving about it. That's, we've come a long way in two years. >> Well, and I saw a lot of the banks here hovering around, you know, knocking on your door so they, they know they are like heat seeking missiles, you know, so, but the growth has been amazing. I mean I think ARR in 2017 was what, 25 million at this time. Uh, at the end of 17 it was 43 and 43 and 25 and now you're at 12 times higher now 1212 X solve X growth, which is the fastest growing software company. I think in that we know from one to 100 we were, we did that in 21 months and all that. >>And we had banks who now we're not really counting anymore and we're kind of, you know, now focus more on customer expansion. Even though we hit 5,000 customers, which we started the year at 2050 ish. We just crossed 5,000. I mean, so the number of customers is great, but there's no question. This conference is focused on scaling, helping them grow at enterprise wide with, with, with RPA. So I think our focus will be in to shift a bit, you know, to really customer expansion. Uh, and that's a lot of what this announcements, the product announcements were about a lot of what the theme here is about. We had four dozen customers on, on stage, you know, the Uber's of the world, the Amazons of the world. It's all about how they've been scaling. So that's the story now. Well, you know, we do a lot of these events and I go back to some of the, uh, when the cube first started, companies like Tablo, Dallas Blunck great service. >>Now, I mean, these you can, and when you talk to customers, first of all, it's easy to get customers to come talk about RPA. Yeah. And they're, they're all saying the same thing. I mean, Jeanne younger said she's never been more excited in her career from security benefit. But the thing is, Bobby, it's, I feel like they're, they're really just getting started. Yeah. I mean most of the use cases that you see are again, automating mundane task. We had one which was the American fidelity, which is a really bringing in AI. Right. But they're really just getting started. It's like one to 3% penetration. So what are your thoughts on that to kind of land and expand, if you will? I think, you know, look, last year we announced our vision of a robot for every person. At that point we had SNBC on stage and they were the one behind it. >>And they are an amazing story. Now we have a dozen or so that are onstage talking about a robot for every person like st and others. And so, but that, that, that's a pretty, pretty, pretty bold vision I think. Look, I think it's important to look at it both ways. Um, there's huge gold and applying RPA to solve real problems. There's a big opportunity, enterprise wide, no question. We've got that. But I look New York Foundling was on stage yesterday. We have New York Foundling is a 150 year old associate. Our charity in New York focused on child welfare, started by three fishers of charity. They focused on infants. And anyway, it's an amazing firm. Just the passion that New York family had on stage with Daniel yesterday was amazing. But what they flew here because for once they found a technology that actually makes a huge difference for them and what in their mission. >>So their first RPA operation was they have 850 clinicians every week. They spend four hours a week moving their contact, uh, a new contact data associate with child child issues from system to system to spreadsheet and paper to system, right? They use RPA and they now say for a 200,000 hours a year. But more importantly, those clinicians spend those four hours every week with children not moving. So I'm still taking, I think Daniel had a bit of a tear in his eye, hearing them talk about it on stage, but I'm still taken by, by the, by the sheer massive opportunity for RPA in, in a particular to solve some really amazing things. Now on a mass scale, a company can drive, you know, 10, 15, 20% productivity by every employee having a robot. Yes, that's true on a mass scale. They can completely transform their business, your transform customer experience, transform the workplace on a mass scale. >>And that, that is, that's a sea level GFC level goal and that's a big deal. But I love the stories that are very real. Um, and, and I think those are important to still do plug some great tech for good story. Look, tech gives, you know, the whole Facebook stuff and the fake news got beat up and it had Benny come out recently say, Hey, it's, it's not just about increasing the value to shareholders, you know, it's about tech for good and doing other things affecting lifestyle's life changing. And Michael Dell is another one. Now I've, I've, I've kind of said tongue in cheek, you know, show me the CEO misses is four quarters in a row and see if that holds up. But nonetheless, you love to see successful companies giving back. It seems to be, it's part of your, well look I've been part of hardware companies and I met you all through a few of them and others they have good noble causes but it was hard to really connect the dots. >>Yes there CPS underneath a number of these things. But I think judging by the emotional connection that these customers have on stage, right and these are the Walmarts and Uber's and others in the world judging by the employee and job satisfaction that they talk about the benefits there. I just, I my career, I have not seen that kind of real direct impact from you know, from B2B software for example on the lives of people both everyday at work but also just solving the solving, you know, help accelerate human achievement. Right. And so many amazing ways. We had the CEO of the U N I T shared services group on stage yesterday and they have a real challenge with, you know, with the growth of refugees worldwide and he would express them and they can't hit keep up. They don't have the funding, which is, you know, with everybody and, and Trump and others trying to hold back money. >>But they had this massive charter for of good, the only way they get there is through digital. The new CEO, the new head of the U N is a technology engineer. He came in and said, the way we solve this is with templates, with technology. And they decided, they said on stage yesterday that RPA and RPA has the path to AI and the greater, the greater new technologies and that's how they're going to do it. And it's just a, it's a really, it's, I think it's, it feels really great. You know, it's funny too, one of the things we've been talking about this week is people might be somewhat surprised that there's so much head room left for automation because the boy, 50 years of tech, Kevin, we automated everything. That's the other, but, and Daniel put forth the premise last night, it actually, technology is created more process problems or inefficiencies. >>So it's almost like tech has created this new problem. Can tech get us out of the problem? Well, essentially you think about all the applications we use in our lives, right? Um, you know, although people do have, you know, a Salesforce stack and sometimes in this SAP, the reality is they have a mix of a bunch of systems and then we add Slack to it and we add other tools and we add all the tools alone, have some great value. But from a process perspective of how we work everyday, right? How a business user might work at a call center, they have to interact then. And the reality is they're often interacting with old systems too because moving them is not easy, right? So now you've got old systems, new systems and, and really the only way to do that is to put a layer on top of the systems of engagement and the systems of record, right? >>A layer on top that's easy to actually build an application that goes between all of these different, these different applications, outlook, Excel, legacy systems and salesforce.com and so on and so on and, and build an app that solves a real problem, have it have outcomes quickly. And this is why, Dave, we unveiled the vision here that we believe that automation is the application. And when you begin to think about I could solve a problem now without requiring a bunch of it engineers who already are maxed out, right? Uh, I can solve a problem that can directly impact the businesses or directly impact customers. And I can do that on top of these old technologies by just dragging and dropping and using a designer tool like studio or studio X in a business user can do that. That's, that's a game changer. I think what's amazing is when you go to talk to a CIO who says, I've been automating for 20 years, you know, take up the ROI. >>Once they realize this is different, the light bulb goes off. We call it the automation first mindset. A light bulb goes off and you realize, okay, this is a very different whole different way of creating value for, for an organization. I think about how people weigh the way that people work today. You're constantly context switching. You're in different systems. Like you said, Slack, you're getting texts and you want to be responsive. You want to be real time. I know Jeff Frick who was the GM of the cube has got two giant screens right on his desk. I myself, I always have 1520 tabs open if I go, Oh you got so many tabs on my, yeah. Cause I'm constantly context switching, pulling things out of email, going back and forth and so and so. I'm starting to grok this notion of the automation is the app. >>At first I thought, okay, it's the killer app, but it's not about stitching things together with through API APIs. It's really about bringing an automation perspective across the organization. We heard it from Pepsi yesterday. Yeah, right. Sort of the fabric, the automation fabric throughout the organization. Now that's aspirational for most companies today, but that really is the vision. Well, I think you had Layla from Coca-Cola also on, right. And her V their vision there and they actually took the CDO role of the CIO and put them together. And they're realizing now that that transformation is driven by this new way of thinking. Yeah, I think, you know, look, we introduced a whole set of new brand new products and capabilities around scaling around helping build these applications quicker. I, I think, you know, fast forward one year from now, the, you know, the vision we outlined will be very obvious the way people interact with, you know, via UI path to build applications, assault come, the speed to the operate will be transformational and, and so, you know, and you see this conference hear me walk around. >>I mean you saw last year in the year before you see the year before, but it's, it's a whole, the speed at which we're evolving here, I think it's unprecedented. And so I'll talk a little bit about the market for has Crigler killer was awesome this morning. He really knows his stuff now. Last year I saw some data from him and said the market by 2020 4 billion, and I said, no way. It's going to be much larger than that. Gonna be 10 billion by 2020 I did Dave Volante fork, Becca napkin by old IDC day forecast. Now what he, what he showed today is data. It actually was 10 billion by 2020 because he was including services, the services, which is what I was including in my number as well, but the of it, which was so good for him now, but the only thing is he had this kind of linear growth and that's not how these rocket ship Marcus grow. >>They're more like an old guy for an S curve. You're going to get some steep part now, so I'd love to see like a longer term forecast because that it feels like that's how this is going to evolve. Right now it's like you've seated the base and you can just feel the momentum building and then I would expect you're going to see massive steep sort of exponential growth. Steeper. There may be, you know, nonlinear because that's how these markets go >> to come from the expansion potential, right? And none of our customers are more than 1% audit automated from an RPA perspective. So that shows you the massive opportunity. But back to the market site, data size, Craig and I and the other analysts, we talk often about this. I think the Tam views are very low and you'll look at our market share, let's just get some real data out there, right? >>Our market share in 2017 was 5% let's use Craig's linear data for now. You know, our market share this year is over 20% our market share applying, and I don't want to give the exact numbers as you don't provide guidance anymore, is substantially we're substantially gaining share now. I believe that's the reality of the market. I think because we know blue prisms numbers, we go four times faster than the every quarter automation. The world won't share their numbers. But you know, I can make some guesses, but either way I think, you know, I think we're gaining share on them significantly. I think, you know, Craig's not gonna want us to be 50% of the market two years, he's just not. And so he's going to have to figure out how to identify how to think. That brought more broadly about, about that market trend. He talked about it on stage today about how does he calculate the AI impact and the other pieces now the process mining now that now that we are integrating process mining into RPA, right? >>It's strategic component of that. How does that also involve the market? So I think you have both the expansion and the plot product portfolio, which drives it. And then you have the fact that customers are going to add more automations at faster pace and more robots and that's where the expansion really kicks in. And we often say, you know, look as a, as a, as a, as a company that, you know, one day we'll be public company, our ARR numbers. Very important. We do openly transparently share that. But you know, the other big metric will be, you know, dollar based net expansion rate that shows really how customers are expanding. I think that, I know it, our numbers, we haven't shared it yet. I know all the SAS companies, the top 10 I can tell you, you know we're higher than all of them. >>The market projections are low. And I think he knows it well. >> Speaking of Tam, and when we, I saw this with, with service now, now service now the core was it right? So the, the ROI was not as obvious with, with, with you guys, you're touching business process. And so, so in David Flory are way, way back, did an analysis of service and now he said, wow, the Tam is way being way under counted by everybody. That wall street analyst Gardner, it feels like the same here because there are so many adjacencies and just talk to the customers and you're seeing that the Tam could be enormous, much bigger than the whatever 16 billion a Daniel show, the other Danielson tangles, the guy's balls. He said, Oh that's 16 billion. That's you. I pass this data. And you know, we laugh, but I'm, I'm like listening. Say I wonder if he's serious cause this guy thinks big. >>I mean, who would've thought that he'd be at this point by now? And you're just getting started? Well, I think, you know, one thing I think is, you know, we're, we're, you know, we were a little bit kind of over a little less humble when we talked about things like valuation over the last few years. We were trying to show this market's real, you know, we want to now focus more on outcomes and things get a little less from around those numbers. And I think that shows the evolution of a company's maturity, um, that we, I think we're going through right now. Uh, you know, the outcomes of, you know, Walmart on stage saying, you know, their first robot that was, this was, this was two years ago, delivered 360,000 hours of capacity for them in, in, in, in, in HR, right? That, you know, I think those, that's where we're gonna be focused because the reality is if we can deliver these big outcomes and continue them and we can go company-wide deliver on the robot for every, every, every, every person, then you know, the numbers follow along with it. >>Well we saw some M and a this week as well, which again leads me to the larger Tam cause we had PD on, um, with Rudy and you can start to see how, okay now we're going to actually move into that vision that the guy from PepsiCo laid out this, this fabric of this automation fabric across the organization. So M and a is, is a part of that as well. That starts to open up new Tam. Opportunity does. And I think, you know, a process mind is a great example of a market that is pretty well known in Europe, not so much in the U S um, and there are really only a few players in that, in that market today. Look, we're going to do what we did in RPA. We're going to do the same thing. You're process mining. We're going to just say anything we're doing in it, not as democratization, you'll our strategy will be to go mass market with these technologies, make it very easy for accessibility for every single person in the case of process mining, every business analyst to be able to mind their processes for them and, and ultimately that flows through to drive faster implementations and then faster, faster outcomes. >>I think our approach, again, our approach to the business users, our approach to democratization, um, you know it's very different than our competitors. A lot of these low code companies, I won't name a number cause I don't remember our partners here at our conference. They're IT-focused their services heavy and, and you know, their growth rates I'll be at okay are 30% year over year in this market. That shouldn't be the case at all. I mean we're a 200 plus a year. We are still and we've got big numbers and we have a whole different approach to the market. I don't think people have figured it out yet, Dave. Exactly, exactly. The strategy behind which is, which is when you have business users, subject matter experts and citizen developers that can access our technology and build automations quickly and deliver value proof for their company. And you do that in mass scale. >>Right. And then you will now allow with our apps for your end users, I get a call center to engage with a robot as part of their daily operation that none of the other it vendors who are all kind of conventional thinking and that's not, our models are very different, which I think shows in our numbers and and, and the growth rates. Yeah. Well you bet on simplicity early on. In fact, when you join you iPad, you challenged me so you have some of your Wiki bond analysts go out. I remember head download our stuff and then try to download the competitors and they'll tell us, you know how easy it as well we were able to download UI path. We, we built some simple automations. We couldn't get ahold of the other other, other companies products we tried. We were told we'll go to the reseller or how much did you have to spend and okay so you bet on simplicity, which was interesting because Daniel last night kind of admitted, look, he tracked the audience. >>He said thank you for taking a chance on us because frankly a couple of years ago this wasn't fully baked right and and so, so I want to talk about last, the last topic is sort of one of the things Craig talked about was consolidation and I've been saying that all week and said this, this market is going to consolidate. You guys are a leader now you've got to get escape velocity cause the leader makes a lot of money and becomes, gets big. The number two does. Okay, number three man, everybody else and the big guys are starting to jump in as well. You saw SAP, you know, makes an announcement and you guys are specialists and so your thoughts on hitting escape velocity, I wouldn't say you're quite there yet. I want to see more on the ecosystem. There's maybe, who knows, maybe there's an IPO coming. I've predicted that there is, but your thoughts on achieving escape velocity and some of the metrics around there, whether it's customer adoption penetration, what are your thoughts? >>Yeah, I mean we definitely don't have a timetable on an IPO, but we have investors, public investors and VCs that at some point are going to want, this is the reality of how, of how it works. Right. Um, you know, I think the, uh, you know, I think the numbers to focus right now are on around, you know, customer outcomes. I think the ecosystem is a good one. Right? You know, we have, I'd say the biggest ecosystem for us to date has been the SAP ecosystem. When we look at our advisory board members, for others, that's really where, where the action is. Supply chain management, ERP, you know, certainly CRM and others, we don't have a view that, so our competitors have, but we have chosen not to take money from our, from ecosystem companies because we don't, our customers here are building processes, all the automation across ecosystems. >>Right? So you know, we don't want to go bet on say just one like Salesforce or Workday. We want to help them across all the ecosystem now. So I think it's a little bit of a different strategy there. Look, I think the interesting thing is the SAP is the world. They bought a small company in France called contexture. They're trying to do this themselves. Microsoft, Microsoft didn't in Mark Benioff and Salesforce are asked on every earnings call now what are you doing for RPA? So they've got pressure. So maybe they invest in one of our competitors or maybe they, you'll take flow in Microsoft and expanded. I think we can't move fast enough because you know, I don't know if Microsoft has, I mean they're a great sponsor by the way. So I don't want to only be careful we swept with what I say. But you know, strategically speaking, these larger companies operate in 18 months, 12 1824 months kind of planning cycles. >>If he did that, he will never keep up with us. There's no one at any of our traditional large enterprise software companies that ever would have bet that we would come out and say that the best way to build applications right to solve problems will be through RPA. Either there'll be a layer on top of all their technologies that makes it easier than ever for business users to build applications and solve problems, that's going to scare them to death. Why? Because you don't have to move all your legacy systems anymore. Yes, you've got tons of databases, but guess what? Don't worry about it. Leave him alone. Stop spending money on ridiculous upgrades right now. Just build a new layer and I'm telling you I there. As they figured this out, they're going to keep looking back and say, Oh my God, why didn't we know? >>Why did we know there's it looked I hopefully we could all partner. We're going to try to go down that route, but there's something much bigger going on here and they haven't figured it out. Well, the SAP data is very interesting to me that I'm starting to connect the dots. I just did a piece on my breaking analysis and SAP, they thank you. They, they've acquired 31 companies over the last nine years, right? And they've not bit the bullet on integration the way Oracle had to with fusion. Right? And so as a result, there's this, they say throw everything into HANA. It's a memory that's not going to work from an integration standpoint, right? Automation is actually a way to connect, you know, the glue across all those disparate systems, right? And so that makes a lot of sense that you're having success inside SAP and there's no reason that can't continue. >>Why there's, you know, there's a number of major kind of trends we've outlined here. One of, uh, we call human in the loop. And you know, today, you know, when each, when an unattended robot could actually stop a process and instead of sending the exception to a, an it person who monitoring, say, orchestrator actually go to an inbox, a task and box of that business user in a call center or wherever, and that robot can go do something else because it's so, so efficient and productive. But once that human has to solve that problem, right, that robot or a robot will take that back on and keep going. This human and robot interaction, it doesn't exist today and we know we're rolling that out in our UI path apps. I think you know that that's kind of mind blowing and then when you add a, I can't go too far into our roadmap and strategy or when you added the app programming layer and you add data science, that's a little bit of a hint into where we're going because we're open and transparent. >>Our data science connection, it's, it's this platform here, this kind of, I'd like to still call it all RPA. I think that that's a good thing, but the reality is this platform does Tam. What it can do is nothing like it was a year ago and it won't be like where it is today. A year from now you've got the tiger by the tail, Bobby, you got work to do, but congratulations on all the success. It's really been great to be able to document this and cover it, so thanks for coming on the cube. Thank you. All right. Thank you for watching everybody back with our next guest. Right after this short break, you're watching the cube live from UI path forward three from Bellagio in Vegas right back.

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape hi everybody welcome to the special edition of the cube insights powered by ETR over the past several weeks we've been running breaking analysis on various market segments and today we're gonna talk about the robotic process automation market the spending data from ETR really shows that that market is poised for for continued growth it's been rocketing these segments are independent editorial they are not sponsored in any way although two of the companies that I'll be talking about today are sponsors of the cube automation anywhere and uipath both sponsor the cube we we attend their shows but they have absolutely no input over these editorial segments it's 100% data-driven based on ETR data and cube insight opinions in my opinions so thank you for watching let's get into it so Alex if you bring up the first slide I want to share with people what the robotic process automation market is and what you need to know about it it's a small but very fast-growing market according to a combination of Forrester and and Gartner data it's around one and a half to 1.7 billion dollars this year and it's growing at over 60 percent per year Gartner calls it the fastest growing software sub segment that they tracked garden just put out a Magic Quadrant on this space which was you know is always interesting reading despite what you think about magic quadrants it's essentially software robots that are automating repetitive mundane tasks and I underline tasks in this chart because it's largely tasks simple tasks that are being automated in a big way as opposed to really big complex processes they tend to be targeted at line of business users and it very popular in environments like finance and service roles and and back office areas where they're a repetitive common tasks that people frankly hate and we're going to give you some feedback from from customers there are a number of upstarts in the space uipath automation anywhere blue prism these these companies have attracted a massive influx of venture capital particularly uipath an automation anywhere over a billion and a half dollars in the last couple of years there monster valuations take those three companies their valuations are up over ten billion dollars and growing uipath for example several months ago announced that it had more than 200 million dollars in annual recurring revenue they were just at eight million dollars two years ago so you're seeing just this this massive growth a lot of influx of capital and a lot of jockeying for position now users that we've talked to will express a great deal of business impact related to the introduction and application of RPA in their business so I want you to take a look at this video of one practitioner that we interviewed at a cube event let's listen to to see what Jeanne younger has to say and then we'll come back and talk about it it's interesting because I also teach the Six Sigma courses there and one of them my slides I've had for years teaching that classes most business processes are like between 3.2 and 3.6 3.8 Sigma which is like 95 to 98% accurate and I said that's all the better we can usually do because of the expense that it would normally be to get us to a Six Sigma you look at the places that have Six Sigma it's life-threatening airline you know airplane engines you hope they're at least 7 Sigma you know those type of things but business processes 3 5 3 2 but now I get to change that because with our PA I can make them Six Sigma very cheap very cheaply because I can pull them in I got my bought it comes over pulls the information and there's no double king there's no miss keys its accuracy 100% accuracy this is a perfect example of how companies are applying robotic process automation to to improve existing business processes you would never try to get a standard business process up to Six Sigma it's just not worth it and as Jean younger explained now she can get there very inexpensively with our PA there many many other use cases but I wanted to share that one with you now the next slide I'm going to show you comes from ETR ETR is an organization that runs a panel is about a 4,500 user panel and they focus on spending intentions they do periodic surveys throughout the year they capture a fairly large number of users and what they're spending on that built this great taxonomy and we've been partnering with ETR to share with you some of that insights and what this slide shows is really spending intentions from the july 2019 survey asking about the second half spending intentions on the sector of robotic process automation you can see here the N is 1068 respondents in that July survey on the left-hand side you can see four vendors that we've chose to profile uipath automation anywhere blue prism and pega systems a company that's been around for a long time and is not exclusively focused on RPA they've got more of a business process focus and I'll come back to that but what this slide shows is really the spending intentions around four areas the bright red is we're going to leave the platform stop spending we're out of here the lighter red is we're gonna spend less in the second half the gray is we're flat the dark green is we're gonna increase spending in the lime green is where a new customer coming on so if you subtract the red from the green you get what ETR calls the net score and that is an indication of spending intentions and momentum so the higher the net score the better you can see here uipath leads the pack with an 81% next score ironically that's the identical next school net score as was snowflake in this survey we profiled the enterprise data warehouse market and snowflake was one of the leaders there so uipath and snowflake even though there are sort of different markets and different levels of maturity sort of around in the same net score so two very hot companies and you can see going down the list automation anywhere 69% blue prism 53% and pega systems 44% actually these are all very strong compared to some of the other market segments we track like for instance if you look at the disk array market and some of the legacy disk array companies some of the enterprise data warehouse companies you'll see sometimes negative scores now on the right-hand side and the black you see shared accounts what this says this is the number of accounts that were mentioned as intending to spend on or in the case of the dark red leave or in the case of the bright green add but the number of counts out of that 1068 corpus of data that mentioned these respective companies so you can see relatively small you know 68 for uipath 42 for automation anywhere 45 for blue prism and only 27% repair systems but these I remind you were still significantly statistically significant enough to at least get indications so you can see again your UI path leads but all of the companies are actually quite strong on a relative basis so the next slide that I want to show you Alex if you bring this up is a time series for some of these leading competitors over over time so we'll go back to January of 18 and the number of shared accounts back then was relatively small it was in the low double digits and in some cases the single digits but as we go to the right you can start to see it it increases in terms of the shared accounts out of that a thousand 1068 from this past survey so you can see uipath at that 81% next score of net score very high but but also automation anywhere very very strong blue prism you can see the decline in that yellow line but again very very strong with a 53% Nets so this space is is new and it's in it's very hot I say it's new and then it's been around for a while but it's really starting to take off and then you can see see Pegasus Thames you're lower than these other companies but still very very strong at 44% now we'll tell you the folks at Wycombe on the the analyst side of our house have gone out they've done some research they maybe it was about 18 months ago they they downloaded the UI paths Community Edition they tried to do the same for automation anywhere in blue prison they tried to get access to the software so they could apply it and you know run some robots against some mundane tasks they were only able to get the automation of the sorry the uipath software which was very simple to install and apply and you know some simple tasks they couldn't get the automation anywhere in blue president you had to go to resellers and it was sort of this complicated you know setup so that was sort of a red flag that we put up but but the UI paths you know claims that their stuff was easy to use some of their users that we've talked to you know talked about it in the context of low code and so we've we've clarified some of that we don't have as much data on automation anywhere in blue prism although we've covered automation anywheres events customers you know seemed quite happy and and reporting strong business impacts don't have as much information at this time on blue prisms on blue prism we have attended some of the peg assistance events just as observers I was saying before I come back to them they take more of a holistic approach to business process it's really not they're not positioning themselves as a standalone RPA vendor which you know frankly I wouldn't do if I were up against uipath and automation anywhere because they've got so much influx of capital they've got modern platforms that are ostensibly easy to use so packet system seems to be look going after our PA in a much sort of broader context around process business process engineering so in summer you just want to say so the very fast-growing market there's a book there's a lot of competition you got uipath automation anywhere blue prism there's about 15 or 20 players in this space that are sort of sizable it's a combination of as they say standalone robotic process automation players with integrated BPM players like Pegasus Thames it's important remember you're largely here automating existing procedures and tasks you know you're not doing a lot of necessarily re-engineering it so that's you know some people are concerned about that saying okay we're kind of paving the cart path at the same time practitioners are reporting that it's having a major business impact and and although they've also said that's not likely to reduce headcount rather we're redirecting resources you're not firing people because you're bringing in robots so people aren't necessarily losing their jobs over this they're just shifting away from that sort of undifferentiated heavy lifting that they hate doing mundane tasks automating that and moving on to more strategic items so a lot of discussion in the industry about artificial intelligence in in machine learning and some folks have said well AI and RP a they have nothing to do with each other I will say this that that machine learning has been injected into the RP a space via computer vision and a good example is it recognized a button like a send button if you know you're sending out you know emails or pushing a certain button every day at the you can automate that process so computer vision is a key part of this and again it's something that certain RPF Enders are touting I know uipath again talks about that a lot but the business impact is tangible and this is based on customer feedback a lot of customer feedback you know generally speaking you're seeing CFOs are hopping on to this they're seeing this is a really good way to take out some of the inefficiencies in their business refocus people on higher value activities and so we're going to continue to watch this RPA space I think it's going to be big we see big s eyes coming into this we're talking about companies like Accenture IBM Deloitte PwC Ernie Young those guys are starting to you know go after the space and I've always said this about the the big sis they love to eat at the trough so with there's money there they find it and they go hard after it so thanks for watching everybody we're gonna continue to report on this space this is Dave Volante with cube insights powered by ETR we'll see you next time

hi from Las Vegas Nevada it's the cube covering IBM world of Watson 2016 brought to you by IBM now here are your hosts John Fourier as Dave Volante hey welcome back everyone we are here live at the Mandalay Bay at the IBM world of Watson this is Silicon angles cube our flagship program we go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise I'm John Fourier with my co-host Dave allanté for the two days of wall-to-wall coverage our next guest is michelle fools so who's the chief marketing officer for IBM knew the company fairly new within the past year yes welcome to the queue last month I think you check all these new hires a lot of new blood coming inside me but this is a theme we heard from Staples to be agile to be fast you're new what's what's your impressions and what's your mandate for the branding the IBM strong brand but yes what's the future look well look I'm I'm thrilled to be here and I'm thrilled to be here because this is an extraordinary company that makes real difference in the world right and that I think you feel it here at the world of Watson in the sort of everyday ways that Watson and IBM touches consumers such as end-users makes their health better you know allows them to have greater experiences so so that's incredible to be part of my kind of company having said that and exactly to your point it's a time of acceleration and change for everyone in IBM is not immune to that and so my mandate here in my remit here and coming in and being a huge fan of what IBM has to say well how do we sharpen our messaging how do we always feel like a challenger brand you know how do we think about what Watson can do for people what the cloud can do what our services business can do and how is that distinctive and differentiated from everybody else out there and I think we have an incredible amount of assets to play with that's got to be through the line you know it's no longer the case that we can have a message on TV and that you know attracts the world the digital experiences are having every single day when they're clicking through on an ad when they're chatting with somebody when their car call center when they have a sales interaction is that differentiated message that brand resident all the way through second thing is marketing's become much more of a science you know and that to me is super exciting I've been a CEO most of my career and you know that the notion that marketing has to drive revenue that marketing has to drive retention and loyalty and expansion that we can come to the table with much more science in terms of what things are most effective in making sure that more clients love us more deeply for longer I'm gonna ask you the question because we had we've had many conversations with Kevin he was just here he was on last year Bob Lord the new chief digital officer we talked to your customers kind of the proof points in today's market is about transparency and if you're not a digital company how could you expect customers to to work with them so this has been a big theme for IBM you guys are hyper focused on being a digital company yes yes and how does it affect the brand a brand contract with the users what's your thoughts on that well first of all Bob Lord is awesome we've known each other for 10 years so it's so wonderful to be working with him again and Dave Kenny as well I think that the at the end of the day consumers have experiences and and you know think of every business you know out there as a consumer and they're having experiences all the time their expectations are being shaped by the fact that they go on Amazon and get prime delivery right their expectations are being shaped by they can go on Netflix and get you know personalized recommendations for them or Spotify and so our job of course and we have some of the greatest technical minds in the world it's to make sure that every experience lines up with the highest of their expectations and so much of that is digital and so my passion my background is entirely in the digital space I have a CEO of Travelocity and then CEO of gilt chief marketing a digital officer at Citigroup so the notion that you know the world's greatest digital experiences is something I'm very passionate about you mentioned Zelda so big TV ads and you think of the smarter planet which was so effective but it was a big TV campaign so you do what's the what's the sort of strategy that you're envisioning is in sort of digital breadcrumbs maybe you could talk about deadly yeah well think about Watson it's a perfect place to think about the Watson branding what does Watson really mean right Watson is and Ginni has said this so well of course it's cognitive and but at the end of the day it's about helping people make better decisions and so you can do some advertising with Watson and Bob Dylan and Watson and you know the young young girl with Serena and and you can get that messaging high but then you've got to bring it all the way through so that's why it's something like this is so powerful to see Woodside up their alley or all these companies talking about staples how they are using Watson embedded in their processes their tools to make their end-users experiences better and how nobody else could do this for them the way Watson's doing it that's taking a brand on high and advertising message on high and delivering value for businesses for patients for consumers all the way through that's what we have to do I got to ask you about that ad advertising trends I so we all see ad blocker in the news digital is a completely different new infrastructure expanded dynamic with social what not you can talk about Bob and I were talking last night about it too you Trevor you know banner ads are all out there impression base and then coded URLs to a landing page email marketing not gonna go away anytime soon but it's changing rapidly we have now new channels yeah what's your thoughts because this is now a new kind of ROI equation is there any thoughts on how you look at that and is it going to integrate into the top level campaigns how are you looking at the new digital that the cutting-edge digital stuff huge amounts of thoughts on this topic so I think you know if you think back 15 20 years ago there were always something called market mix modelling which helps advertisers and marketers to understand the effectiveness of their TV campaigns and frankly not too dissimilar from Nielsen you know there were so there was art and science at best in it and then all of a sudden the digital world evolved and you could get at a tactical level very very clear about attribution and whether you drove something and the challenge for us now is much more sophisticated models that are multi-touch attribution because the reality is an average consumer doesn't do one thing or have one interaction with a brand they're gonna see a TV show and watch a commercial while they're watching that commercial that business user or that end consumer is on their iPad or on their phone they're seeing a digital ad the next day at work they're being retargeted because they were aughts company they search for something they see a search campaign our job is to connect those dots and understand what really moves that consumer that business user to take an action and there are many sophisticated multi-touch attribution models where you model you know a standard set of behaviors and you test correlations against a bunch of different behaviors so you understand of what I did all the money I spent what really drove impact and by cohort I think that's the other credit there's no more the sense of sort of aggregated everything you really have to break it out yeah I didn't space my cohort to see what moves me and improve that experience right which has been you you get the example in the day of the Hilton retirees you already know that the retard the hotel was full so so obviously Watson plays a role in them Satyam plays a role in that so it's all about data it's all about you know that's where I think Watson can be extraordinarily helpful so if you think about the tool as a marketer has they're becoming more and more sophisticated and retargeting with something out of 10 years ago whenever was introduced that helped all of us a little bit and getting that message but it is only as good as the API is behind it and the the experience behind it when now when I was at gilt I was CEO of gilt we would put over a thousand products on sale every day that would be sold out by the next day sales down this 24-hour flash sale we had to get really really good at knowing how to how to retarget because last thing you want is to retarget something that sold out right or gone the next day and understand the user that was in and out and they're coming back and of course in that cohort that's where Watson to me is very exciting and you probably saw this in some of the demos of where Watson can help marketers you know where Watson can can really understand what are the drivers of behavior and what is likely to drive the highest purpose why were you so successful at guild and and how are the challenges different years because there's a sort of relatively more narrow community or city group to I was called the chief marketing and digital officer at Citigroup and and you know a tremendous budget and a lot of transactions you have to drive every day a lot of people you want to open credit cards and bank accounts so around the world I think that the the relentless focus on on marketing being art and science you know art and science and I think that's you know that passion for analytics passion for measurement having been CEO that passion for being able to say this is what we're doing and this is what we're driving so you've been kind of a data geek in your career you mentioned the financial services you can't to measure everything but back to the ad question you know the old saying used to be wasting half my advertise I just don't know which half yeah and my archives is wasted but now for the first time in the history of business in the modern era you measure everything online that's right so does that change your view and the prism of how you look at the business cuz you mentioned multi-touch yeah so now does that change the accountability for the suppliers I mean at agencies doing the big campaign I think it changes the game for all of us and there's no destination this is every day you can get better at optimizing your budget and and I would be the first to tell you as much of a sort of engineering and data geek because I've always been and deep-fried in the reality is there is art even in those attribution models what look back windows you choose etc that you know you're making decisions as a company but once you make those decisions you can start arraying all of your campaigns and saying what really moved the needle what was the most effective it's not an indictment that say what are we can do differently tomorrow you know the best marketers are always optimizing they're always figuring out at what point in the final can we get better tomorrow well in answer about talent because that's one of the things that we always talk about and also get your thoughts on Women in Technology scheme we were just at Grace Hopper last week and we started to fellowship called the tech truth and we're doing it's real passion area for us we have a site up QP 65 net / women in tech all women interviews we're really trying it the word out but this is now a big issue because now it's not stem anymore it's team arts is in there and we were also talking to the virtual reality augmented reality user experience is now potentially going to come into the immersion students and there's not enough artists yeah so you starting to see a combination of new discipline talents that are needed in the professions as well as the role of women in technology yeah your thoughts on that because this isn't you've been very successful what's your view on that at what's your thoughts about thank you for what you're doing right it takes a lot of people up there saying that this is important to make a difference so most of all thank you you know I think that this this is obviously a place I've been passion about forever I remember being a and being pregnant and that becoming this huge you know issue a news story and you're trying to juggle it right and how could a woman CEO be pregnant so it's so funny how people ridiculous took attention but but I think that the point is that the the advantage as a company has when there are great women in engineering and great women in data science and great women and user experience and design are just palpable they're probable in a variety of ways right when the team thinks differently the team is more creative the team is more open to new ideas the output for the customers are better right I mean they just saw a snapchat today just announced that in 2013 70% of their users were women so all the early adopters were women you know now it's balance but the early the early crowd were women and so we have got to figure out how to break some of the minds now I'm incredibly encouraged though while we still have a long way to go the numbers would suggest that we're having the conversation more and more and women are starting to see other women like them that they want to be it's a global narrative which is good why we're putting some journalists on there and funding it as and just as a fellowship because this it's a global story yeah okay and the power women I mean it's like there are real coders and this real talent coming in and the big theme that came out of that was is that 50% of the consumers of product are women's but therefore they should have some women features and related some vibe in there not just a male software driven concept well and should too when a powerful individual male individual like Satya steps in it and and you know understands what the mistaken and someone like refer to his speech two years ago where he said that you should just bad karma don't speak up and opening up transparency he got some heat yeah but that talk as you probably know but my opinion it's it's it's a positive step when an individual like that it was powerful and opening transparency within their company yeah that's it is that great networking I host a core I've been doing this for a year years with a good friend of mine Susan line from AOL we host a quarterly breakfast for women in tech every every quarter in New York City and we've been doing it for a long time it's amazing when those women come together the conversations we have the discussions we have how to help each other and support each other and so that's that's a real passion we were lost in a few weeks ago for the data science summit which Babu Chiana was hosting in and one of the folks was hosting the data divas breakfast we a couple there were a couple day two dudes who walked in and it was interesting yeah the perspectives 25 percent of the women or the chief data officer were women mm-hmm which was an interesting discussion as well so great 1,000 men at 15 you know as you see that techno but it's certainly changing when I get back to the mentoring thing because one of the things that we're all so passionate about is you've been a pioneer okay so now there's now an onboarding of new talent new personas new professions are being developed because we're seeing a new type of developer we're seeing new types of I would say artists becoming either CG so there's new tech careers that weren't around and a lot of the new jobs that are going to be coming online haven't even been invented yet right so you see cognition and what cognitive is enabling is a new application of skills yep can your thoughts on that because this is an onboarding opportunity so this could change the the number of percentage of women is diverse when you think about what I mean it's clear your notion of steam right your notion of stem that is a male and female phenomena and that is what this country needs it's what this world needs more of and so there's a policy and education obligation and all of us have to the next generation to say let's make sure we're doing right by them in terms of education and job opportunities when you think about onboarding I mean to me that the biggest thing about onboarding is the world is so much more interconnected than it used to be if you're a marketer it's not just art or science you have to do both it's a right brain left brain connectivity and I think 1020 years ago you could grow up in a discipline that was functional and maybe siloed and maybe you were great at left brain or great at right brain and the world demands so much more it's a faster pace it's an accelerated pace and the interconnection is critical and I've one of the things we're doing is we're putting together these diamond teams and I think it's going to really help lead the industry diamond teams are when you have on every small agile marketing team and analytics head a product marketing had a portfolio marketing had a design or a social expert these small pods that work on campaigns gone are the days that you could say designer designs it product comes up with the concept then it goes so it's design team then it goes to a production team then it goes to an analytics team we're forcing this issue by putting these teams together and saying you work together every day you'll get a good sense of where the specialty is and how you learn how to make your own discipline better because you've got the analytics person asked a question about media buying and media planning advertising as we're seeing this new real-time wet web yeah world mobile world go out the old days of planned media buyers placed the advertisement was a pacing item for execution yep now things you mentioned in the guild flash sales so now you're seeing new everyday flash opportunities to glob on to an opportunity to be engagement yeah and create a campaign on the fly yes and a vision of you guys I mean do you see that and does it change the cadence of how you guys do your execution of course of course that's one of the reasons we're moving to this diamond team and agile I think agile will ultimately be as impactful to marketing as it was to engineering and development and so I think the of course and that has to start with great modeling and great attribution because you have to know where things are performing so that you can iterate all the time I mean I believe in a world where you don't have marketing budgets and I know that sounds insane but I believe in a world where you set target and ranges on what you think you're gonna spend at the beginning of the year and every week like an accordion you're optimizing spend shipping code you've been marketing you should be doing like code so much of marketing is its episodic you boom and then it dies in a moment it's gone to the next one and you're talking about something that's I love that you know the personas to your point are much more fluid as well you got Millennials just creating their own vocations yes well this is where I think consumer companies have led the path and you know if you think about a lot of b2b companies we've had this aggregated CIO type buyer and now we've got to get much more sophisticated about what does the developer want you know what's important to the developer the messaging the tools the capabilities the user experience what about the marketer you know what the person in financial services and so both industry and professional discipline and you know schooling now with Watson you don't have to guess what they want you can actually just ask them yeah well you can actually the huge advantage you got you observe the observation space is now addressable right so you pull that in and say and that's super important even the stereotype of the persona is changing you've been saying all week that the developer is increasingly becoming business oriented maybe they don't they want they don't want to go back and get their MBA but they want to learn about capex versus op X and that's relevant to them and they to be a revolutionary you have to understand the impact right and and and they want to ship code they want to change the world I mean that is every engineering team I've ever worked at the time only worked with I mean I've been as close to engineering as from day one of the internet or early on in the internet great engineers are revolutionaries they want to change the world and they change the world they want to have a broader and broader understanding of what levers are at their disposal and I will say that I you know and I am one of the reasons I came to yam is I am passionate about this point technology cannot be in the hands of a few companies on the west coast who are trying to control and dominate the experience technology has to exist for all those amazing developers everywhere in the world who will make a difference to end user this is IBM strategy you actually have a big presence on the west coast also in Germany so you guys are going to where the action centers ours but not trying to just be so Malory point is what exactly because my point is IBM has always been there for making businesses stronger and better we don't monetize their data that's not our thing our thing is to use our cloud our cognitive capabilities and Watson to make actual businesses better so that ultimately consumers have better health care and better results I know you're new on the job silence this is not a trick question just kind of a more conversational as you talk to Bob lower Bob Chiana Jeanne yeah what's the promise of the brand and you used to be back in the days when you know Bob piano we talk about when we I worked at IBM in the 80s co-op student and it was you'll never get fired for buying IBM mainframe the kind of concept but it's evolved and I'll see we see a smarter plan what's the brand promise now you guys talk about what's the brainstorm on its head I think that I think the greatest innovators the world the most passionate business leaders of tomorrow come to IBM to make the world better and I I believe this is a brand for the forward the forward lookers the risk takers the you know the makers I think that you come to IBM because there's extraordinary assets and industry knowledge real humans real relationships that we exist to make your business better not our business will be a vibrato be exist to make your business better that has always been where IBM has been strong you know it's interesting that brings up a good point and just riffing on that Dave and I were just observing you know at the Grace Hopper with our tech truth mentorship which is promoting the intersection of Technology and social justice you're seeing that mission of Technology business value and social justice as an integral part of strategies because now the consumer access the consumerization of business yeah software based is now part of that feedback you're not doing good Millennials demand it I mean Millennials now when you look at the research in the next generation high Millennials are very very you know they want to know what are you doing for the world I mean who could do a 60 minute show besides IBM who could have who could be on 60 minutes changing cancer changing cancer outcomes for people beside IBM that that is an extraordinary testament to what the brand is and how it comes to life every day and that's important for Millennials we had Mary click-clack Clinton yesterday she is so impressive we're talking about how though these ozone layer is getting smaller these are us problems it can be solved they have to be so climate change can be solved so the whole getting the data and she's weather compass oh she's got a visit view on that is interesting her point is if we know what the problems are we as a community global society could actually solve them completely and it's an you know the more we make this a political and we say here is a problem and we have the data and we have the tools we have the people and capabilities to solve it that is where IBM Stan's tallest well I think with Watson use its focused on some big hairy problems to start with and now you're knocking off some some of the you know maybe more mundane but obviously significant to a marketer incredible that a company can start with the hardest most complicated problems the world has and actually make a difference my final question when I asked Mary this yesterday and she kind of talked about if she could have the magic Watson algorithm to just do something magical her and what would it be and she said I'll send Watson to the archives of all the weather data going back to World War two just compile it all and bring it back or addressability so the question is if you could have a Magic Watson algorithm for your chief marketing officer job what would you assign it to do like what would it be it's like first task well first of all reaction of course I'm a mom of six year olds an eight year old and so I want Watson to optimize my time no but a chief marketing officer I mean I think it really does go back to getting Watson's help in understanding how we use a dollar better how we use a dollar smarter how we affect more customers and and and connect connects with more customers in the way we you know we communicate the way we engage the way we've put our programs out that would be extraordinary and that's possible that's becoming more and more possible you know bringing science into the art of marketing I think will have great impact on what we're doing in also just the world I mean nobody wants to have you know maybe targeted ten times for something that's sold out well we asked one more time here so I got some more couple of questions because it's not getting the hook yet I gotta ask you see you mentioned Travelocity you know the web you've been through the web 1.2.0 yeah yeah so on so URLs and managing URLs was a great tracking mechanism from the old impressions weren't working and go to call to action get that look right there but now we different where that world is kind of like become critical infrastructure for managing technology since you're kind of geeking out with us here what's your view of the API economy because now apps don't use URLs they use tokens they use api's they use new push notification based stuff what sure how does api's change the marketing opportunities both right it's clearly changes the engineering environment and sort of opens up the world of possibilities in terms of who you partner with and how etc and I think it changes the marketing world too and entirely right you think about the API economy and the access you have to new ways of doing business new potential partnerships new ways of understanding data you know that that is absolutely you know at the fore of a lot of our thinking it might change the agency relationships to if they got to be more technical in changing as much as fast as companies are and they have to you know they are an extension they're your best you should be able to look in a room of agency and your team and not know who is who when you can tell who is who you have a problem and so agencies themselves have to become you know way more scientific harder-hitting faster pace and outcomes orient and somebody sees now are saying you know what pay me on outcomes I love that I love that mode to say we're in the boat with you pay me on outcome and the big s eyes are right there - absolutely yes Michele Palooza new chief marketing officer at IBM changing the game bring in some great mojo to IBM they're lucky to have you great conversations and thanks for coming on the cube live at Mandalay Bay this is silicon angles the cube I'm John four with Dave Volante be right back with more after this short break