(upbeat intro music) >> Good afternoon, fellow tech nerds. My name is Savannah Peterson, coming to you from theCube's Remote Studio here in Motown, Detroit, Michigan where we are at KubeCon. John, this is our 12th interview of the day. How are you feeling? >> I'm feeling fresh as the first interview. (Savannah laughs) As always. >> That delivery really implied a level of freshness. >> Let's go! No, this is only Day 1. In three days, reinvent. We go hardcore. These are great events. We get so much great content. The conversations are amazing. The guests are awesome. They're technical, they're smart, and they're making the difference in the future. So, this next segment about Scale MySQL should be awesome. >> I am very excited to introduce our next guest who actually has a Twitter handle that I think most people, at least of my gender in this industry would love to have. She is @ATechGirl. So you can go ahead and tweet her and tell her how great this interview is while we're live. Please welcome Deepthi Sigireddi. Thank you so much for being here with us. >> Thank you for having me. >> You're feeding us in. You've got two talks you're giving while we're here. >> Yes, yes. So tomorrow we will be talking about VTR, myself and one of the other maintainers of Vitess and on Friday we have the Vitess Maintainer Talk. All graduated projects get a maintainer talk. >> Wow, so you are like KubeCon VIP celebrity. >> Well, I hope so. >> Well, you're a maintainer and technical lead, also software engineer at the PlanetScale. But talk about the graduation process where that means to the project and the people involved. >> So Vitess graduated in 2019 and there are strict criteria for graduation and you don't just have to meet the minimum, you sort of have to over perform on the graduation criteria. Some of which are like there must be at least two large production deploys and people from those companies have to go in front of the CNCF committee that approves these things and say that, "Yes, this project is critical to our business." >> A lot of peer review, a lot of deployment success. >> Yes. >> Good consistency in the code. >> Deepthi: Community diversity. >> All that. >> All those things. >> Talk about the importance of this project. What is the top story that people should know about around the project? Why it exists, why it's important, why it's relevant, why it's cool. How would you answer that? >> So MySQL is now 30 years old and yet they are still- >> Makes me feel a little sidebar. (Deepthi laughs) Yeah. >> And yet even though there are many other newer databases, it continues to be used at many of the largest internet scale companies. And some of them, for example, Slack, GitHub, Square, they have grown to a level where they could not have if they had tried to do it with Vanilla MySQL that they started with, and the only reason they are where they are is Vitess. So that is I think the number one thing people should know about Vitess. >> And the origination story on notes say "Came from YouTube." >> Yes. So the way Vitess started was that YouTube was having problems with their MySQL deployment and they got tired of dealing with the site being down. So the founders of Vitess decided that they had to do something about it and they started building Vitess which started as a pretty small, relatively code-based with limited features, and over time they built charting and all of the other things that we have today. >> Well, this is exciting Savannah because we've seen this industry. Like with Facebook, when they started, everyone built their own stuff. MySQL was a great- >> Oh gosh, and everyone wanted to build it their way, reinventing the wheel. >> And MySQL was great. And then as it kind of broke when it grew, it got retrofitted. So, it was constantly being scaled up to the point where now you guys, if I get this right, said, "Hey, we're going to work on this. We're going to make it next-gen." So it's kind of like next-gen MySQL. Almost. >> Yes, yes. I would say that's pretty accurate, yeah. So there are still large companies which run their own MySQL and they have scaled it in their own way, but Vitess happens to be an open source way of scaling MySQL that people can adopt without having to build all of their own tooling around it. >> Speaking of that and growing, you just announced a new version today. >> Yes, yes. >> Tell us about that. >> The focus in this version was to make Vitess easier to use and to deploy. So in the past, there was one glaring gap in Vitess which was that Vitess did not automatically detect and repair MySQL level failures. With this release, we've actually closed that gap. And what that means for people using Vitess is that they will actually spend less time dealing with outages manually, or less human intervention, More automated recovery is what it means. The other thing we've released today is a new web UI. Vitess had a very old web UI, ugly, hard to maintain. Nobody liked it. But it was functional, except we couldn't add anything new to it because it was so old. So, the backend functionality kept advancing but the front end was kind of frozen. Now we have a next generation UI to which in upcoming releases we can add more and more functionality. >> So, it's extensible. They add things in. >> Deepthi: Oh yes, of course. Yeah. >> Awesome. What's the biggest thing that you like about the new situation? Is it more contributors are on board the UI? What's the fresh new impact that's happening in the community? What's getting you excited about with the current project? And the UI's great 'cause usability is important. >> Deepthi: Right. >> Scalability is important. >> I think Vitess solved the scalability problem way early and only now we are really grappling with the usability problem. So the hope and the desire is to make Vitess autopilot so that you reduce human intervention to a minimum once you deploy it. Obviously, you have to go through the process of deploying it. But once you've deployed it, it should just run itself. >> Runs at scale. So, the scale's huge? >> Deepthi: Yes. >> How many contributors are involved in the project? Can you give some numbers? Do you have any handy that you can speak to? >> Right. So, CNCF actually tracks these statistics for all the projects and we consolidated some numbers for the last two full calendar years, 2020 and 2021. We had over 400 contributors and 200 plus of them contributed code and the others contributed documentation issues, website changes, and things like that. So that gives- >> How about downloads? Download's good? >> Oh, okay. So we started publishing the current official Vitess Docker Image in 2018. And by October of 2020, we had about 3.8 million downloads. And by August of 2021, we had 5.2 million. And today, we have had over 10 million downloads- >> Wow! >> Of the main image. >> Starting to see a minute of that hockey stick that we all like to see. Seems like you're very clearly a community-first leader and it seems like that's in the PlanetScale and the test's DNA. Is that how the whole company culture views it? Would you say it's community-first business? >> PlanetScale is very much committed to Vitess as an open source project and to serving the Vitess community. So as part of my role at PlanetScale, some of the things I do are helping new contributors whether they are from PlanetScale or from outside PlanetScale. A number of PlanetScale engineers who don't work full-time on Vitess still contribute bug fixes and features to Vitess. We spend a significant amount of our energy helping users in our community Slack. The releases we do are mainly for the benefit of the community and PlanetScale is making those releases because for Planet Scale... Within PlanetScale, we actually do separate releases versus the public ones. >> One of the things that's coming up here at the show is deploying on Kubernetes. How does that look like? Everyone wants ease of use. Are you guys easy to use? >> Yes, yes. So PlanetScale also open sourced a Kubernetes operator for Vitess that people outside PlanetScale are using to run their production deployments of Vitess. Prior to that, there were Vitess users who actually built their own Kubernetes deployments of Vitess and they are still running those, but new users and new adopters of Vitess tend to use the Kubernetes operator that we are publishing. >> And you guys are the managed service for Vitess for the people that that's the business model for PlanetScale. >> Correct. So PlanetScale has a serverless database on demand which is built on Vitess. So if someone's starting something new and they just need a database, you sign up. It takes 30 seconds to get a database. Connect to it and start doing things with it. Versus if you are a large enterprise and you have a huge database deployment, you can migrate to PlanetScale, import all of your existing data, cut over with minimal downtime and then go, and then PlanetScale manages that. >> And why would they do that? What's the use case for that? Save time new development team or refactoring? >> Save time not being able to hire people with the skills to run it in-house. Not wanting to invest engineering resources in what businesses think is not their core competency. They want to focus on their business value. >> So, this database is a service in their whatever they're doing without adding more costs. >> Right. >> And speed. Okay, cool. How's that going? >> It's going well. >> Any feedback from customers in terms of why that there are any benefit statements you seek popping out? What are the big... What's the big aha when they... When people realize what they have here, what's the aha moment for them? Do they go, "Wow, this is awesome. It's so easy. Push a button. Migrate." Or is it... >> All of those. And people have actually seen cost savings when they've migrated from Amazon RDS to PlanetScale and we have testimonials from people who've said that, "It was so easy to use PlanetScale. Why would we try to do it ourselves?" >> It's the best thing a customer could say, right? We're all about being painkillers and solving some sort of problem. I think that that's a great opportunity to let you show off some of your customers. So, who is receiving this benefit? 'Cause I know PlanetScale specifically is for a certain style of business. >> Hmm. We have a list of customers on the website. >> Savannah: I was going to say you have a really- >> John: She's a software engineer. She's not marketing. >> You did sexy. >> You're doing a great job as much as marketing. >> So the reason I am bringing this up is because it's clear this is a solution for companies like Square, SoundCloud, Etsy, Jordan, and other exciting brands. So when you're talking about companies at scale, these companies are very much at scale, which is awesome. >> Yeah. >> What's next? What do you guys see the future for the project? >> I think we talked about that a little bit already. So, usability is a big thing. We did the new UI. It's not complete, right? Because over the last four years we've built more features into the backend which you can't yet access from the UI. So we want to be able for people to use things like online schema changes which is a big feature of Vitess. Doing schema changes without downtime from the UI. So, schema management from the UI. Vitess has something called VReplication which is the core technology that enables charting. And right now you can from the UI monitor your charting status, but you can't actually start charting from the UI. So more of the administrative functions we want to enable from the UI. >> John: Awesome. >> Last question. What are you personally most excited about this week being here with our wonderful community? >> I always enjoy being at KubeCon. This is my fifth or sixth in-person and I've done a couple of virtual ones. >> Savannah: Awesome. >> Because of the energy, because you get to meet people in person whom previously you've only met in Slack or maybe in a monthly community Zoom calls. We always have people come to our project booth. We have a project booth here for Vitess. People come to the company booth. PlanetScale has a booth. People come to our talks, ask questions. We end up having design discussions, architecture discussions. We get feedback on what is important to the people who show up here. That always informs what we do with the project in future releases. >> Perfect answer. I already mentioned that you can get a hold and in touch with Deepthi through her wonderful Twitter handle. Is there any other website or anything you want to shout out here before I do our close? >> vitess.io. V-I-T-E-S-S dot I-O is the Vitess website and planetscale.com is the PlanetScale website. >> Deepthi Sigireddi, thank you so much for being on the show with us today. John, thanks for keeping me company as always. >> You're welcome. >> And thank all of you for tuning into theCUBE. We will be here in Detroit, Michigan all week live from KubeCon and we hope to see you there. (gentle upbeat music)

>>Welcome to the cubes coverage of C CFS, co con EU cloud native con in Valencia Spain, I'm John furrier. This is a preview interview with the co-chairs versus we have Jasmine James senior engineering manager and of developer experience and Coon cloud native con EU co-chair and RI ricotta Rocher computing engineer at CERN and Coon co-chair as well at EU. Great to have you both on great to see you, both of you, >>Hey, to be here, >>Us >>Keep alumni. So, you know, Coon just continues to roll and get bigger and bigger, um, and watching all the end user action watching the corporations enterprises come in and just all the open source projects being green litted and just all the developer onboarding has been amazing. So it should be a great EU and Vale span, great venue. A lot of people I I'm talking to are very excited, so let's get into it as co-chairs take us through kind of the upcoming schedule at a very high level. Then I wanna dig into, uh, some of the new insights into selection and program programming that you guys had to go through. I know every year it's hard. So let's start with the overall upcoming schedule for COCOM. >>Yeah. So I'll dive into that. So the schedule is represents a, quite a diverse set of topics. I would say, um, I personally am a fan of those, you know, more personal talks from an end user perspective. There's also like a lot of the representation from a community perspective and how folks can get involved. Um, as most of, you know, like our tracks, the types of tracks has evolved over the year as well. So we now have a community track student track. So it's gonna be very exciting to hear content within those tracks, um, through in Valencia. So a very exciting schedule. Um, yeah. >>And just real quick for the folks watching it's virtual and physical it's hybrid event May 4th through seventh Ricardo, what's your take on the schedule? Uh, how do you see it breaking down from a high level standpoint? >>Yeah, so, um, I'm pretty excited. Um, I think the, the fact that this hybrid will help keep, um, build on the experiences we had, uh, during the pandemic times to, to give a better experience for people not making, uh, it to Valencia. I'm pretty excited also about the number of co-located events. So the two days before the conference will include, uh, um, a large number of co-located events, focusing on security S uh, and some new stuff for like batch and HPC workloads that I'm pretty close to as well. Uh, and then some, some really good consolidation in some tracks like this value, which I think will be quite, quite interesting as well. >>So you mentioned this is gonna be like watch parties, people gonna be creating kind of satellite events. Is that what you're referring to, uh, in terms of the physical space gonna be an event, obviously, um, what's going on around, outside the event, either online or as part of the program. >>So, yeah, uh, the, the, all the sessions, uh, from, from the collocated events will be available virtually as well. I don't know if people will actually be setting up parties everywhere. <laugh>, I'm sure some people will. Yeah, >>There'll definitely be >>Some. And then for, for, for the conference itself, there will be dedicated rooms where for the virtual talks, uh, people can just join in and sit for a while and watch the virtual talks and then go back to the in person, ones, uh, Monday feel >>Like, yeah, it's always a good event. Uh, Jasmine, we talked about this last time and Ricardo, we always get into the hood as well. What's the vibe on the, the, the, the programming. And honestly, people wanna get, give talks. There's a virtual component, which opens up more aperture, uh, for more community and more actions as, as Ricardo pointed out. What's what was the process this year? Because we're seeing a lot of big trends emerge, obviously securities front and center, um, end user projects are growing data engineering is a new persona. That's just really emerged out of kind of the growth of data and the role of data that it plays and containers. And, and with Kubernetes, just a lot of action. What's the, what was it like this year in, in the selection process for the program? >>Yeah, I mean, the selection process is always lots of fun for the co-chairs. Um, you shout out to program committee, track chairs, you put in a lot of great work and reviewing talks and, and it's just a very, very thorough process. So kudos to all of us who are getting through it for this year. I think that lots of things emerge, but I still feel like security is top of mind for a lot of folks, like security is really has provided. One of the biggest, um, submissions is from, from a quantity perspective, there are tons of talks submitted for security track, and that just kind of speaks for itself, right? This is something that the cloud native community cares about, and there's still a lot of innovation and people wanna voice what they're doing and share it. >>Ricardo, what's your take, we've had a lot of chats around not only some of the hardcore tech, but some of the new waves that are emerging out of the growth, the mature maturization of, of, of the segment. What are you seeing, uh, as terms of like the, the key things that came out during the, the process? >>Yeah, exactly. So I think I would highlight something that Jasmine said, which is the, the emergency emergence of some new tracks as well. Uh, she mentioned the student track, but also we added a research track, which is actually the first time we'll have it. So I'm pretty excited about that. Of course, uh, then for the trends, clearly security observability are, uh, massive tracks for app dev operations, uh, extending Kubernetes had also a lot of submissions. Um, I think the, the main things I saw that, uh, kind of, uh, gain a bit of more consistency is the part for the business value. And, uh, the, the, the fact that people are now looking more at the second step, like managing cloud costs, uh, how to optimize, uh, spot usage and, um, usage of GPUs for machine learning, things like this. So I'm pretty excited. And all these hybrid deployments also is something that keeps coming back. So those were, are the ones that, uh, I, I think came out from, from, from the submission at this time, >>You know, it's interesting as the growth comes in, you see these cool new things happen, but there are also signs of problems that need to be solved to create opportunities. Jasmine, you mentioned security. Um, there's a lot of big trends, scale Ricardo kind of hinting at the scale piece of it, but there's all this now new things, the security posture changes, uh, as you shift left, it's not, it's not, it's not over when you shift left in security in the pipeline in there, but it's, there's audits. There's the size of, uh, the security elements, uh, there's bill of materials. Now, people who got supply chains, these are huge conversations right now in the industry, supply chain security, um, scale data, uh, optimization management, um, notifications, all this is built in, built into a whole nother level. What do you guys see in the key trends in the cloud native ecosystem? >>I, I would say that a lot of the key trends, like you said, it, right, these things are not going anywhere. It's actually coming to a point of maturation. Um, I see more of a focus on how consuming, how, how companies go about consuming these different capabilities. What is that experience like? There's a talk that's gonna be offered, um, as a keynote, um, just about that security and leveraging developers to scale security within your environment. And not only is it a tool problem, it's a mindset thing that you have to be able to get over and partner bridge gaps between teams in order to make this, um, a reality within, within, um, people, within certain organizations. So I see the experience part of it, um, coming a big, a big thing. Um, there's multiple talks about that. >>Ricardo, what's your take on these trends? Cause I look at the, the, the paragraph of the projects now it's like this big used to be like a couple sentences. Now you got more projects coming on, you got the rookies in there and you got the, the veterans, the veteran projects in there. So this speaks volumes to kind of things like notaries new, right? So this is cool. Wait, what does that mean? Okay. Security auditing all this is happening. What are the, what are the big trends that you're excited about that you see that people are gonna be digging in, in, in the pro in, in the event? >>Yeah, I think we, we, we talked about supply chain just before. I think that's, that's a big one. We, we saw a, a keynote back in north America already introducing this, and we saw a lot of consolidation happening now in projects, but also companies supporting this project. Um, I, I'm also quite interested, interested in the evolution of Kubernetes in the sense that it's not just for, what was it, it was traditionally used for like traditional it services and scaling. We start seeing, there will be a very cool keynote from, from deploying, uh, Kubernetes at the edge, but really at the edge with the lower orbit satellites running ES in basically, uh, space. So those things I think are, are, are very cool. Like we start seeing really a lot of consolidation, but also people looking at Kubernetes for, for pretty crazy things, which is very exciting. >>Yeah. You mention, you mentioned space that really takes us to a whole edge, another level of edge thinking, um, you know, I've had many conversations around how do you do break fixing space with some folks in, in the space industry, in, in public sector, software is key in all this. And again, back to open source, open source has to be secured. It has to be, be able to managed effectively. It needs to be optimized into the new workflows space is one of them, you know, you see in, um, 5g edge is huge, uh, with new kind of apps that are being built there. So open source plays a big role in all this. So the, the question I wanna ask you guys is as open source continues to grow and it's growing, we're seeing startups emerge with the playbook of you. You play an open source or you actually create a project and then you get funding behind it because I know at least three or four VCs here in Silicon valley that look at the projects and say, they're looking for deals. And they're saying, keep it open a whole nother level. Can you guys share your insights on how the ecosystem's, uh, evolving with entrepreneurship and, and startups? >>Uh, oh, I guess I'll start. Um, I think that it's such a healthy thing, um, to have such innovation occurring, um, is it's really just, uh, Testament as to how the cloud native community right. Nurtures and cultivates these ideas and provides a great framework for them to develop over time, going from, you know, the sandbox and incubating and graduating and having the support of a solid framework, I think is a lot of the reason why a lot of these projects grow so quickly and reach certain these high levels of adoption. Um, so it's a really fantastic thing to see. I think that, you know, VCC an opportunity and, and, and there's a lot of great innovation that can be, you know, operationalized and scaled, right. Um, and applied to a lot of industries. So I feel it, I feel like it's a very healthy thing. Um, it also creates a lot of opportunities about something I'm passionate about, which is like, you know, people getting involved in open source as a step into the world of tech. Um, so all of these projects coming about provide an opportunity for folks to get involved in a particular component they're interested in and then grow their career in open source. So really great thing, in my opinion. >>And you mentioned the student track, by the way, I kept to point that out. I mean, that's huge. That's gonna be a lot of people who have, you know, in computer science programs or self learning. I mean, the, the, the ability to get up to speed, uh, from a development standpoint, as a coder, um, you can be a rural comp SI or, uh, just a practitioner just coding. I mean, data's everywhere. So data engineering, coding, I mean, Ricardo, this is huge student and then just every sector's opening up. I mean, the color codes on the calendar is, uh, larger than ever before. >>Yeah. I think, yeah, the, the diversity of the usage and the communities is, is something that is really important and it's been growing still. So I, I think this one not stop. Um, I'm pretty, pretty, pretty excited to see also how we'll handle this growth, because as you mentioned, like everything is increasing in numbers, number of projects, number of startups around this project. Uh, so one, one thing that I'm particularly interested on as an end user is to understand also how to help other end users that are jumping in not only the, the developers or, or the people wanting to support these projects, but also the end users. How, how do they choose their sta how, how it's, how, how should they look like for their use cases, much more than just going, uh, from, from the selection, individual projects to understand how they, they work together. So I think this is a challenge for, for the next couple of years. >>Yeah. I mean, roll your own and building blocks, whatever you wanna call it, you're starting to see people, uh, build their own stacks. And that's not a bad thing. It might be a feature, not a bug. >>Yeah. I, I would agree that I think it's something that we have to work on, uh, together to, to, to help, especially people starting in the ecosystem, but also for, for the experienced ones that start looking at other use cases as well. >>Okay. Jasmine, we talked about this last time, you gotta pick a favorite, uh, child in the, in the, in the agenda. Uh, what's your favorite session? Um, and you gotta pick one or three or maybe put handful, um, as you guys look through this year, what's the theme. I mean, people like you can kind of sense what's happening. Uh, when you look at the agenda, obviously observability is in there, all these great stuff's in there, but what's the, what's your favorite, um, uh, project or topic this year that, uh, you're jazzed about >>For me, I I'd say there's such diverse, um, topics that are being presented both on the keynote stage and throughout, um, the various tracks. I will just reference, um, the talk that I, I sort of alluded to earlier about, um, leveraging developers to scale Kubernetes. Um, it's a talk given by red hat on the keynote stage. Um, I just think it, you know, the abstracts will me because it's talks about bridging two different roles together, um, and scaling what we all know to be so important within the cloud native space, security and Kubernetes. So it's something that's very like real for me, um, in, in my current role and previous roles. So I think that that's the one that spoke to me. >>Awesome. Ricardo, what's your favorite, uh, this year? What do you, what do you, uh, if you had to put a little gold star on something that you're interested in, what it would it be? >>I think I hinted on, on it just before, which is, uh, I'm, I'm kind of a space enthusiast. So all, all this idea of running Kubernetes in space, um, makes me very excited. So really looking forward to that one, but as an end user, I'm also very interested in talks. Uh, like the one Mercedes will be doing, which is the transition from a kind of a more traditional company to this, uh, uh, more modern world of, uh, cloud native. And I'm quite interested to hear how, how, what their experience has been has been like in the last few years. >>Well, you guys do a great job. I love chatting with you and I love, uh, CNCF and following from the beginning, we were there when it was, when it was created and watched it grow from an insider perspective, the hyperscalers people who are really kind of eating glass and building scale, you know, SREs. Now you have, you have the SRE concept going kind of global mainstream, seeing enterprises and end users contributing and participating enterprises, getting, connecting those two worlds. Jasmine, as you said, as you look at that, you're starting to see the scale piece become huge. You mentioned it a little bit earlier, Jasmine, the SRE role was specific to servers and cloud. You're kind of seeing that kind of role needed for this kind of cloud native layer. We're seeing it with data engineering. It's not for the faint of heart. It may not be a persona. That's got zillions of people, but it scales. It's like an SRE role. You're seeing that with this kind of monitoring and, and with containers and Kubernetes where it's gotta get easier and scale, how do you guys see that? Do you see that emerging in the community, this, this kind of new scale role and, um, what is it, what is this trend? Or maybe I'm misrepresenting it or maybe I'm sensing it wrong, but what do you guys think about the scale piece? How is that F falling into place? >>Yeah, I, I think that is, um, adoption, like, or there's more saturation of, of cloud native technologies within any environment. Um, most in most companies realize that you have to have that represented right within the role that is managing it. Um, if you wanna have it be reliable. Um, so I think that a lot of roles are adopting those behaviors, right. In order to be able to sustain this within their environment and learning as they start to implement these things. Um, so I see that to be something that just happens. Um, we saw it was like DevOps, right? You know, engineers were starting to adopt, you know, working on the systems versus just, you know, working on software. Um, so it's sort of like encompassing all the things, right. We're, we're seeing a shift in the role and, and the behaviors that are within it in order to maintain these cloud native services. So >>Ricardo, what's your take, we've been seeing engineers get to the front lines more and more. Uh, you guys mentioned business value as one of the tracks and, uh, focus topics this year, it's happening, engineers and developers. They're getting in the front lines cuz as you move up that stack, whether it's a headless system for retail or deploying something in another sector, they gotta be in the front lines. If you're gonna be in doing machine learning and have data, you gotta have domain scales about what the business is. Right? >>Yeah. I, I, I agree very much with what Jasmine said and, and uh, if we add this for, for kind of the business value and the, this opportu opportunistic usage of, uh, all types of resources that can come from basically anywhere these days, I think this is, this is really becoming, um, a real role to, to understand how, how to best, uh, use all of this and uh, to, to make the best of all this available resources. When we start talking about, uh, CPUs, it's already important. If we start talking about GPU's, which are more scar or some sort of specialized accelerators, then, then it becomes really like something that, uh, you, you need people that know where, where to go and fish for those. Cause they, they, you can just build your own data center and, and scale that anymore. So you really need to understand what's out there. >>Applications gotta have the security posture nailed down. They gotta have it. Automation built in. You gotta have the observability, you gotta have the business value. I mean, it sounds like a mature industry developing here finally. It's happening. Good job guys. Thanks for coming on the queue. Really appreciate it. >>Thank you. Thank you for having >>Us. And we'll see the cube here at Koon cloud native con May 16th through the 20th in Vale Spain, the cube will be there. We'll have some online coverage as well. Look for the virtual from CNCF. The cube will bring all the, all the action. I'm John fur, your host, see you in Spain and see you on the 16th.

>>Hello, and welcome to this cubes presentation with unstoppable domains. It's a showcase we're featuring all the best content in web three. And with unstabled a showcase I'm John furrier, your host of the cube. We've got a great guest here, Matt Miscavige. Covich who's the chief revenue officer of unstoppable domains. Matt, welcome to the showcase. Appreciate it. >>Thank you for having me. So >>The theme of this segment is the potential of the web three marketplace with unstoppable domains, the chief revenue officer, you guys have a very intriguing, interesting concept. That's going extremely well. Congratulations, but you're using NFTs for access and domains. Of course, the, the metaverse is huge. People want their own domains, but it's not just like real estate in the sense of a website. It's bigger than that. It's a lot going on. So take us through what is the value proposition and what is the product? >>Absolutely. So for the past 20 years, most of us have been interacting on the internet. Using usernames issued to us by big corporations like Facebook, Google, Twitter, tech talks, Snapchat, et cetera. Whenever we get these usernames for free it's because we in our data are the product as some of the recent leaks. And the media has shown incentives. Individuals and companies are not always aligned. And most importantly, individuals are not in control of their own digital identity and the data, which means they can economically benefit from the value they create online. Think of Twitter as a two-sided marketplace with 0% revenue share back to its creators. We're now having in the creator economy and we believe that individuals should see the economic rewards of what they do in create online. That's all we're trying to do here at unstoppable domains is provide user own take control identity to four and a half billion internet users. >>It's interesting to see change that's happening with web three. And just in cultural terms, users are expecting to be part of the creative, the personality of the company. There's this almost this disintermediation of the middleman. You know, whether it's an ad network or a gatekeeper of any kind people going direct, right? So if I'm an artist, I can go direct to my fans. >>Exactly. So web through really shifts the power away from aggregators, aggregators and marketplaces have been some of the best business models. The last 20 years onto the internet, the web three is going to dramatically change that over the next decade, paying more power back in the hands of consumers. >>What type of companies do you guys work with and partner with that we see out there, what's give us some examples of the kinds of companies you're doing business with and partnering with. >>Yeah. So let's talk about use cases. First actually is the big use case that we identified initially for NFT domain names was around cryptocurrency transfers. Anyone who's ever bought cryptocurrency and tried to transfer it between the council while it's is familiar with these awkwardly long hexadecimal strings of random numbers and letters, where if you make a single type of money is lost forever. That's a pretty scary experience that exists today in our $2 trillion asset class with 250 million users. So the first set of partners that we worked on integrating with who actually cook the wilds and exchanges. So we will allow users to do is replace all their long hexadecimal wallet addresses with a single human readable name, like John dot NFT or Maxim needs give each dot crypto to allow for simple crypto transfers. >>And how did the exchange work with you guys on that as it is? Is it a plugin? Is it co-locating code together? What's the, what's the, what's the relationship between exchanges and unstoppable domains? >>Yeah, absolutely. A great question. So exchange has actually have to do a little bit of an engineering lift to work with us, and they can do that by either using our resolution libraries or using one of our API APIs or in order to look up an unstoppable name and figure out all the wallet addresses that's associated with that name. So today we work with dozens of the world's top exchanges and wallets ranging from Oko DX to Coinbase wallet, to trust wallet, to bread wallet, and many, many others. >>I got to ask you on the wallet side, is that a requirement in terms of having specific code and are there wallets that you work well with? Explain the wallet dynamic between unstoppable domains and wallets. >>Yeah. So while it's all have this huge usability problem for their users, because every single cryptocurrency held by every single one of their users has a different hexadecimal wallet address. And once again, every user is subject to the same human fallacies and errors, where they make a single type where their money can be lost forever. So we enable these wallets to do is to make crypto transfer as simple and as less scary than the current status code by giving the users on a sub well name that they can use to attach to all the waltz addresses on the backend. So companies like trust world, for example, which has 10 million users or Coinbase wallet. When you go to the crypto transfer fields, they can just type in an unstoppable name. They'll correctly, route the currency to the right person, to the right world, without any chance for human error. >>You know, when these big waves come, I gotta ask you this question. Cause a lot of people in the mainstream are getting into it. Now reminds me of the web wave that hit the big thing was how many people are coming online. It was one of the key metrics and how many web pages are being developed was another metric, which meant that people were building out web pages. And it's hard to look back and think, wow, that was actually a KPI. So internet users and webpages were the two proxies cause then search and just came out and everything else happened. So I'm going to ask you, there are people watching, they're seeing that on commercials on TV, they're seeing it everywhere stadiums are named after crypto companies. So the bottom line is people want to know how NFT domains take the fear out of working with crypto and sending crypto. >>Yeah, absolutely. So imagine if we had to navigate the web using IP addresses rather than typing in google.com, you'd have to type in a random string of words and numbers that you'd have to memorize. That would be super painful for users. And didn't, it wouldn't have gotten to where it is today with this, you know, almost 5 billion people online, the history of computer networks. We have human readable naming systems built on top. In every single instance. It's almost crazy that we got to a $2 trillion asset class with 250 million users worldwide 13 years after this, the Toshi white paper without a human readable naming system, other than supple domains and a few of our competitors, that's a fundamental problem that we need to solve in order to go from 250 million crypto users in 2022 to 5 billion crypto users, a decade from now. >>And just to point out and not to look back and maybe make a correlation, but I will, if you look at the naming system of DNS, what it did to IP addresses, that's one major innovation that enabled the web. Then you look at what keyword navigation has done on top of DNS, what that did for the industry. And that basically birthed Googled keywords, basically ads. So that's trillions and trillions of dollars again. Now shifting to you guys, is that how you see it? Obviously it's decentralized, so what's different. Okay. I get, so if you compare, Hey, Google was successful, you know, keyword advertising industry for less than 25 years or 20 years. >>Yeah. Yeah. What's different. Now is the technology inflection points. So blockchains have evolved to a point where they enable high throughput, high transaction volume and true decentralized ownership. The NFT standard, which is only a couple of years old know, has taken off massively around trading of profile pictures like crypto punks and the boy apes yacht club where they use cases extended much more than just, you know, a cool JPEG that goes up in value two or three X year over year. There is the true use case here around ownership of identity ownership over a data set, decentralized log-in authentication and permission data sharing. One of the sad things that happened in Jeanette on the internalized decade really was that the platforms built out have now allowed developers to built on top of them and a trustless permissionless way. Developers who build applications on top of some of the early monopolies in the last decade, got the rules changed on them. APIs, cutoff, new fees instituted. That's not going to happen in web three because all permissionless custody in a user's own wallet, we cannot take the way they will continue to exist in eternity, regardless of what happens to unstoppable domains, which gives developers a lot more confidence in building new products for the web three identity standard that we're building out. >>You guys amazing is that's a whole nother generational shift. I'm always been a big fan of abstractions when innovation is needed, when they're problems that need to be solved, messes to be cleaned up. Good abstraction layer on top of new architecture is really, really phenomenal. I guess the key question for I have for you is, you know, the queue, we have all this video where where's our NFT should, how should we implement NFTs? >>There's a couple of different ways you could think about it. You could do proof of attendance, protocol NFTs, which are really interesting way for users to show that they were at particular events. So just in the same way that people collect, t-shirts some conferences, people will be collecting. And if Ts to show, there were in person attending in person cultural moments, whether they were acquired an event online or offline, you could do NFTs for employees to show that they were at your company during certain periods of the company's growth. So think of replacing the resume with a cryptographically secure resume like this on the blockchain and perpetuity. Now more than half of all the resumes contain lies, which is a pretty gnarly problem as a hiring manager, or you constantly have to sort through as ways that this can impact that side of the market as well. >>I saw some, and I think it was a use case for everything. Appreciate that. And of course we can have the most favorite, cute moments. It could be a cube host NFT at 40 apes out there. Why not have a board cube host going on and, and >>Auction for charity on open? >>All right, great stuff. Now let's get into some of the cool tech nerd stuff, which is really the login piece, which I think is fascinating. The having NFTs be a login mechanism is another great innovation. Okay. So this is cool. Cause it's like think of it as one click and FTS, if you will. What's the response been on this? Log-in with unstoppable for that product? What some of the use gates is. Can you give some examples of the momentum and traction? >>Yeah, absolutely. So we launched the product less than 90 days ago. We already have 90 committed or integrated partners live today with a login product. And this replaces login with Google login with Facebook, with a way that's user owned and user controlled. And over time, people will be capturing additional information back to their NFP domain names, such as their reputation, their history, things they've done online and be able to permission to share that with applications that they interact with in order to get any rewards, once you own all your data and you can choose to share it with companies or incentivize you to share data. For example, imagine you just bought a new house and you have 3000 square feet to furnish. You could tell that fact and prove it to a company like Wayfair. Would they be incentivized to give you discounts? We're spending 10, 20, $30,000 and you'll do all of your purchasing there rather than spread across other e-commerce retailers. For sure they would. But right now, when you go to that website, you're just another random email address. They have no idea who you are, what you've done, what your credit score is, whether you house buyer or not. But if you could permission to share that to using a log-in open software product, I mean the web would just be much, much different. >>And I think one of the things too, as these, I call them analog old school companies, old guard companies is referred to in the cube talk here, but we were still always called that old guard is the people who aren't innovating. You could think about companies having more community too, because if you have more sharing and you have this marketplace concept and you have these new dynamics of how people are working together, sharing will provide more transparency, but yet security on identity. Therefore things are going to be happening organically. That's a community dynamic. What's your view on that? And what's your reaction >>Communities are such an important part of web three and the cryptos ecosystem in general, people are very tightly knit and they all support each other. There's a huge amount of collaboration in this space because we're all trying to onboard the next billion users into the ecosystem. And we know we have some fundamental challenges and problems to solve, whether it's complex wallet addresses, whether it's the lack of portable data sharing, whether it's just simple education, right? I'm sure, you know, tens of millions of people got into crypto for the first time during the super bowl face on some of those awesome ads that ran. >>Yeah. Love the QR code. That's a direct response. I remember when the QR code has been around for a long time. I remember in the nineties, late nineties, it was a thing, a device at red QR codes that did navigation to a webpage. So I mean, QR codes are super cool, great way to get, and we all using it to, with the pandemic to ordering food. So I think QR codes are here to stay. In fact, we should have a QR code on all of our images here on the screen too. So we'll work on that, but I gotta ask you on the project side, now let's get into the devs and kind of the applications, the users that are adopting unstoppable and this new way of doing things, why are they gravitating towards this login concepts? Can you give some examples and put, give some color commentary to why are these D application distribute application guys and gals programming and with you guys? >>Yeah. They all believe that the potential for why we're trying to create a round user own the controlled identity. We're the only company in the market right now with a product that's live and working today. There's been a lot of promises made and we're the first ones to actually deliver to companies like cook finance, for example, are seeing the benefit of being able to have their users go through a simple process to check in and authenticate into the application, using your NFT domain name, rather than having to create an email address and password combination as a login, which inevitably leads to problems such as lost passwords, password resets, all those fun things that we used to deal with on a daily basis. >>Okay. So now I got to ask you the kind of partnerships you guys are looking at doing. I can only imagine the old, old school days you had a registry and you had registrars, you had a sales mechanism. I noticed you guys are selling NFT kind of like domain names on your website. Is that a kind of a current situation? Is that going to be ongoing? How do you envision your business model evolving and what kind of partnerships do you see coming along? >>Yeah, absolutely. So we're working with a lot of different companies from browsers that took changes to wallets, to individual NFT projects, to more recently even exploring partnership, partnership opportunities with fashion brands. For example, the Tyree market is moving so so fast. And what we're trying to essentially do here is create the standard naming system for web three. So a big part of that for us, we'll be working with partners like blockchain.com and with circle who's behind the DC coin on creating registries, such as dot blockchain and dot coin and making those available to tens of millions and ultimately hundreds of millions and billions of users worldwide. We want an ensemble domain name to be the first asset that every user in crypto gets, even before they buy their Bitcoin Ethereum or dovish coin. >>It makes a lot of sense obstruct the way the long hexadecimal string. We all know that we all write down putting a safe, hopefully you don't forget about it. You know, I always say, make sure you tell someone where your addresses. So in case something happens, you don't lose all that crypto. All good stuff. I got to ask the question around the ecosystem. Okay, can you share your view and vision of either your purse, yourself or the company when you have this kind of new market, you have all kinds of, and we meant the web was a good example, right? Web pages, you need web development tools. You had HTML by hand. Then you had all these tools. So you had tools and platforms and things kind of came well, grew together. How was the web three stakeholder ecosystem space evolving? What's what are some of the white spaces? What are some of the clearly defined areas that are developing? >>Yeah, I mean, we've seen an explosion in new smart contract blockchains and the past couple of years actually going live, which is really interesting because they support a huge number of different use cases, different trade-offs on each. We recently partnered and moved over a primary infrastructure to polygon, which is a leading EVM compatible smart chain, which allows us to provide free gas fees to users for maintaining and managing their domain name. So we're trying to move all obstacles around user adoption. Here. We all need to have Ethereum in your wallet. You know, it'd be an unstoppable domains customer or user. You don't have to worry about paying transaction fees. Every time you want to update the wallet, addresses associated with your domain name. We want to make this really big and accessible for everybody. And that means driving down costs as much as possible. Yeah, >>It's a whole nother wave. It's a wave that's built on the shoulders of others. It's a shift and infrastructure, new capabilities, new new applications. I think it's a, it's a great thing. You guys doing the naming system makes a lot of sense. This abstraction layer creates that ease of use. It simplifies things makes things easier. I mean, this is, was the promise of, of these abstraction layers. Final question. If I want to get involved, say we want to do a cube NFT with unstoppable. How do we work with you? How do we engage? Can you give a quick plug on what companies can do to engage with you guys on a business level? >>Yeah, absolutely. So we're looking to partner with wallets, exchanges, browsers, and companies who are in the crypto space already and realize they have a huge problem around usability with crypto transfers and wild addresses. Additionally, we're looking to partner with decentralized applications as well as web to companies who perhaps want to offer log-in with unstoppable domain functionality. In addition to, or in replacement of the login with Google and log-in with Facebook buttons that we all know and love. And we're looking to work with fashion brands and companies in the sports sector who perhaps want to claim their unstoppable names, free of charge from us. I might add in order to use that on Twitter or other marketing materials that they may have out there in the world to signal that they're not only forward looking, but that they're supportive of this huge wave that we're all riding at the most. >>May I great insight, chief revenue officer ensemble domains. Thanks for coming on the showcase, the cube and unstoppable domain share in the insights. Thanks for coming on. Okay. This cubes coverage here with the unstoppable domain showcase. I'm John furrier, your host. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome to theCUBE studios of Palo Alto California for RSA conference keynote coverage and conference coverage. I'm Sean for your host of theCUBE. We're breaking down the keynote of RSA day one kickoff. We had Mark Nunnikhoven, who's the distinguished cloud strategist at Lacework. Mark former cube alumni and expert and security has been on many times before, Mark great to see you. Thanks for coming on and helping me break down RSA conference 2021 virtual this year. Thanks for joining. >> Happy to be here. Thanks for having me John. >> You know, one of the things Mark about these security conferences is that interesting, RSA was the last conference we actually did interviews physically face to face and then the pandemic went down and it was a huge shutdown. So we're still virtual coming back to real life. So and they're virtual this year, so kind of a turn of events, but that was kind of the theme this year in the keynote. Changing the game on security, the script has been flipped, connectivity everywhere, security from day one being reinvented. Some people were holding onto the old way some people trying to get on there, on the future wave. Clearly you got the laggards and you've got the innovators all trying to kind of, you know, find their position. This has been obvious in this keynote. What's your take? >> Yeah and that was exactly it. They use that situation of being that last physical security conference, somewhat to their advantage to weave this theme of resiliency. And it's a message that we heard throughout the keynote. It's a message we're going to hear throughout the week. There's a number of talks that are tying back to this and it really hits at the core of what security aims to do. And I think aims is really the right word for it because we're not quite there yet. But it's about making sure that our technology is flexible that it expands and adapts to the situations because as we all know this year, you know basically upended everything we assumed about how our businesses were running, how our communities and society was running and we've all had to adapt. And that's what we saw at the keynote today was they acknowledged that and then woven into the message to drive that home for security providers. >> Yeah and to me one of the most notable backdrops to the entire thing was the fact that the RSA continues to operate from the sell out when Dell sold them for alright $2 billion to a consortium, private privately private equity company, Symphony Technology Group. So there they're operating now on their own. They're out in the wild, as you said, cybersecurity threats are ever increasing, the surface area has changed with cloud native. Basically RSA is a 3000 person startup basically now. So they've got secure ID, the old token business we all have anyone's had those IDs you know it's pretty solid, but now they've got to kind of put this event back together and mobile world Congress is right around the corner. They're going to try to actually have a physical event. So you have this pandemic problem of trying to get the word out and it's weird. It's kind of, I found it. It's hard to get your hands around all the news. >> It is. And it's, you know, we're definitely missing that element. You know, we've seen that throughout the year people have tried to adapt these events into a virtual format. We're missing those elements of those sorts of happenstance run-ins I know we've run into each other at a number of events just sort of in the hall, you get to catch up, but you know as part of those interactions, they're not just social but you also get a little more insight into the conference. Hey, you know, did you catch this great talk or are you going to go catch this thing later? And we're definitely missing that. And I don't think anyone's really nailed this virtual format yet. It's very difficult to wrap your head around like you said, I saw a tweet online from one InfoSec analyst today. It was pointed out, you know, there were 17 talks happening at the same time, which you know, in a physical thing you'd pick one and go to it in a virtual there's that temptation to kind of click across the channels. So even if you know what's going on it's hard to focus in these events. >> Yeah the one conference has got a really good I think virtual platform is Docker con, they have 48 panels, a lot of great stuff there. So that's one of more watching closest coming up on May 27. Check that one out. Let's get into this, let's get into the analysis. I really want to get your thoughts on this because you know, I thought the keynote was very upbeat. Clearly the realities are presenting it. Chuck Robbins, the CEO of Cisco there and you had a bunch of industry legends in there. So let's start with, let's start with what you thought of Rowan's keynote and then we'll jump into what Chuck Robbins was saying. >> Sure yeah. And I thought, Rohit, you know, at first I questioned cause he brought up and he said, I'm going to talk about tigers, airplanes and sewing machines. And you know, as a speaker myself, I said, okay, this is either really going to work out well or it's not going to work out at all. Unfortunately, you know, Rohit head is a professional he's a great speaker and it worked out. And so he tied these three examples. So it was tiger king for Netflix, at World War II, analyzing airplane damage and a great organization in India that pivoted from sewing into creating masks and other supplies for the pandemic. He wove those three examples through with resiliency and showed adaptation. And I thought it was really really well done first of all. But as a cloud guy, I was really excited as well that that first example was Netflix. And he was referencing a chaos monkey, which is a chaos engineering tool, which I don't think a lot of security people are exposed to. So we use it very often in cloud building where essentially this tool will purposely blow up things in your environment. So it will down services. It will cut your communications off because the idea is you need to figure out how to react to these things before they happen for real. And so getting keynote time for a tool like that a very modern cloud tool, I thought was absolutely fantastic. Even if that's, you know, not so well known or not a secret in the cloud world anymore, it's very commonly understood, but getting a security audience exposure to that was great. And so you know, Rohit is a pro and it was a good kickoff and yeah, very upbeat, a lot of high energy which was great for virtual keynote. Cause sometimes that's what's really missing is that energy. >> Yeah, we like Rohit too. He's got some, he's got charisma. He also has his hand on the pulse. I think the chaos monkey point you're making is as a great call out because it's been around the DevOps community. But what that really shows I think and puts an exclamation point around this industry right now is that DevSecOps is here and it's never going away and cloud native and certainly the pandemic has shown that cloud scale speed data and now distributed computing with the edge, 5G has been mentioned, as you said, this is a real deal. So this is DevOps. This is infrastructure as code and security is being reinvented in it. This is a killer theme and it's kind of a wake-up call. What's your reaction to that? what's your take? >> Yeah, it absolutely is a wake-up call and it actually blended really well into a Rohit second point, which was around using data. And I think, you know, having these messages put out to the, you know, what is the security conference for the year always, is really important because the rest of the business has moved forward and security teams have been a little hesitant there, we're a little behind the times compared to the rest of the business who are taking advantage of these cloud services, taking advantage of data being everywhere. So for security professionals to realize like hey there are tools that can make us better at our jobs and make us, you know, keep or help us keep pace with the business is absolutely critical because like you said, as much as you know I always cringe when I hear the term DevSecOps, it's important because security needs to be there. The reason I cringe is because I think security should be built into everything. But the challenge we have is that security teams are still a lot of us are still stuck in the past to sort of put our arms around something. And you know, if it's in that box, I'm good with it. And that just doesn't work in the cloud. We have better tools, we have better data. And that was really Rohit's key message was those tools and that data can help you be resilient, can help your organization be resilient and whether that's the situation like a pandemic or a major cyber attack, you need to be flexible. You need to be able to bounce back. >> You know, when we actually have infrastructure as code and no one ever talks about DevOps or DevSecOps you know, we've, it's over, it's in the right place, but I want to get your thoughts and seeing if you heard anything about automation because one of the things that you bring up about not liking the word DevSecOps is really around, having this new team formation, how people are organizing their developers and their operations teams. And it really is becoming programmable and that's kind of the word, but automation scales it. So that's been a big theme this year. What are you hearing? What did you hear on the keynote? Any signs of reality around automation, machine learning you mentioned data, did they dig into automation? >> Automation was on the periphery. So a lot of what they're talking about only works with automation. So, you know, the Netflix shout out for chaos monkey absolutely as an automated tool to take advantage of this data, you absolutely need to be automated but the keynote mainly focused on sort of the connectivity and the differences in how we view an organization over the last year versus moving forward. And I think that was actually a bit of a miss because as you rightfully point out, John, you need automation. The thing that baffles me as a builder, as a security guy, is that cyber criminals have been automated for years. That's how they scale. That's how they make their money. Yet we still primarily defend manually. And I don't know if you've ever tried to beat, you know the robots that are everything or really complicated video games. We don't tend to win well when we're fighting automation. So security absolutely needs to step up. The good news is looking at the agenda for the week, taking in some talks today, while it was a bit of a miss and the keynote, there is a good theme of automation throughout some of the deeper dive sessions. So it is a topic that people are aware of and moving forward. But again, I always want to see us move fast. >> Was there a reason Chuck Robbins headlines or is that simply because there are a big 800 pound gorilla in the networking space? You know, why Cisco? Are they relevant security? Is that signaling that networking is more important? As of 5G at the edge, but is Cisco the player? >> Obviously Cisco has a massive business and they are a huge player in the security industry but I think they're also representative of, you know and this was definitely Chuck's message. They were representative of this idea that security needs to be built in at every layer. So even though, you know I live on primarily the cloud technologies dealing with organizations that are built in the cloud, there is, you know, the reality of that we are all connected through a multitude of networks. And we've seen that with work from home which is a huge theme this year at the conference and the improvements in mobility with 5G and other connectivity areas like Edge and WiFi six. So having a big network player and security player like Cisco in the keynote I think is important just because their message was not just about inclusion and diversity for skills which was a theme we saw repeated in the keynote actually but it was about building security in from the start to the finish throughout. And I think that's a really important message. We can't just pick one place and say this is where we're going to build security. It needs to be built throughout all of our systems. >> If you were a Cicso listening today what was your take on that? Were you impressed? Were you blown away? Did you fall out of your chair or was it just right down the middle? >> I mean, you might fall out of your chair just cause you're sitting in it for so long taken in a virtual event. And I mean, I know that's the big downside of virtual is that your step counter is way down compared to where it should be for these conferences but there was nothing revolutionary in the opening parts of the keynote. It was just, you know sort of beating the drum that has been talked about, has been simmering in the background from sort of the more progressive side of security. So if you've been focusing on primarily traditional techniques and the on-premise world, then perhaps this was a little a bit of an eye-opener and something where you go, wow, there's, you know there's something else out here and we can move things forward. For people who are, you know, more cloud native or more into that automation space, that data space this is really just sort of a head nodding going, yeap, I agree with this. This makes sense. This is where we all should be at this point. But as we know, you know there's a very long tail insecurity and insecurity organizations. So to have that message, you know repeated from a large stage like the keynote I think was very important. >> Well you know, we're going to be, theCUBE will be onsite and virtual with our virtual platform for Amazon web services reinforced coming up in Houston. So that's going to be interesting to see and you compare contrast like an AWS reinforce which is kind of the I there I think they had the first conference two years ago so it's kind of a new conference. And then you got the old kind of RSA conference. The question I have for you, is it a just a position of almost two conferences, right? You got the cloud native AWS, which is really about, oh shared responsibility, et cetera, et cetera a lot more action happening there. And you got this conference here seem come the old school legacy players. So I want to get your thoughts on that. And I want to get your take on just just the cryptographers panel, because, you know, as I'm not saying this as a state-of-the-art that the old guys saying get off my lawn, you know crypto, we're the crypto purists, they were trashing NFTs which as you know, is all the rage. So I, and Ron rivers who wrote new co-create RSA public key technology, which is isn't everything these days. Is this a sign of just get off my lawn? Or is it a sign of the times trashing the NFTs? What's your take? >> Yeah, well, so let's tackle the NFTs then we'll do the contrast between the two conferences. But I thought the NFT, you know Ron and Addie both had really interesting ways of explaining what an NFT was, because that's most of the discussion around the NFT is exactly what are we buying or what are we investing in? And so I think it was Addie who said, you know it was basically you have a tulip then you could have a picture of a tulip and then you could have something explaining the picture of the tulip and that's what an NFT is. So I think, you know, but at the same time he recognized the value of potential for artists. So I think there was some definitely, you know get off my lawn, but also sort of the the cryptographer panels is always sort of very pragmatic, very evidence-based as shown today when they actually were talking about a paper by Schnorr who debates, whether RSA or if he has new math that he thinks can debunk RSA or at least break the algorithm. And so they had a very logical and intelligent discussion about that. But the cryptographers panel in contrast to the rest of the keynote, it's not about the hype. It's not about what's going on in the industry. It's really is truly a cryptographers panel talking about the math, talking about the fundamental underpinnings of our security things as a big nerd, I'm a huge fan but a lot of people watch that and just kind of go, okay now's a great time to grab a snack and maybe move those legs a little bit. But if you're interested in the more technical deeper dive side, it's definitely worth taking in. >> Super fascinating and I think, you know, it's funny, they said it's not even a picture of a tulip it's s pointer to a picture of a tulip. Which is technically it. >> That was it. >> It's interesting how, again, this is all fun. NFTs are, I mean, you can't help, but get an Amber by decentralization. And that, that wave is coming. It's very interesting how you got a decentralization wave coming, yet a lot of people want to hang on to the centralized view. Okay, this is an architectural conflict. Is there a balance in your mind as a techie, we look at security, certainly as the perimeter is gone that's not even debate anymore, but as we have much more of a distributed computing environment, is there a need for some sensuality and or is it going to be all decentralized in your opinion? >> Yeah that's actually a really interesting question. It's a great set up to connect both of these points of sort of the cryptographers panel and that contrast between newer conferences and RSA because the cryptographers panel brought up the fact that you can't have resilient systems unless you're going for a distributed systems, unless you're spreading things out because otherwise you're creating a central point of failure, even if it's at hyper-scale which is not resilient by definition. So that was a very interesting and very valid point. I think the reality is it's a combination of the two is that we want resilient systems that are distributed that scale up independently of other factors. You know, so if you're sitting in the cloud you're going multi-region or maybe even multicloud, you know you want this distributed area just for that as Verner from AWS calls it, you know, the reduced blast radius. So if something breaks, not everything does but then the challenge from a security and from an operational point of view, is you need that central visibility. And I think this is where automation, where machine learning and really viewing security as a data problem, comes into play. If you have the systems distributed but you can provide visibility centrally which is something we can achieve with modern cloud technologies, you kind of hit that sweet spot. You've got resilient underpinnings in your systems but you as a team can actually understand what's going on because that was a, yet another point from Carmela and from Ross on the cryptographers panel when it comes to AI and machine learning, we're at the point where we don't really understand a lot of what's going on in the algorithm we kind of understand the output and the input. So again, it tied back to that resiliency. So I think that key is distributed systems are great but you need that central visibility and you only get there through viewing things as a data problem, heavy automation and modern tooling. >> Great great insight, Mark. Great, great call out there. And great point tied in there. Let me ask you a question on your take on the keynote in the conference in general as first day gets going. Do you see this evolving from the classic enterprise kind of buyer supplier relationship to much more of a CSO driven or CXO driven? I need to start building about my teams. I got to start hiring developers, not so much in operation side. I mean, I see InfoSec is these industries are not going away. People are still buying tools and stacking up the tool shed but there's been a big trend towards platforms and shifting left from a developer CICB pipeline standpoint which speaks to scale on the cloud native side and that distributed side. So is this conference hitting that Mark, or you still think there are more hardware and service systems people? What's the makeup? What's the take? >> I think we're definitely starting to a shift. So a great example of that is the CSA. The Cloud Security Alliance always runs a day one or day zero summit at RSA. And this year it was a CSO executive summit. And whereas in previous years it's been practitioners. So that is a good sign I think, that's a positive sign to start to look at a long ignored area of security, which is how do we train the next generation of security professionals. We've always taken this traditional view. We've, you know, people go through the standard you get your CISSP, you hold onto it forever. You know, you do your time on the firewall, you go through the standard thing but I think we really need to adjust and look for people with that automation capability, with development, with better business skills and definitely better communication skills, because really as we integrate as we leave our sort of protected little cave of security, we need to be better business people and better team players. >> Well Mark, I really appreciate you coming on here. A cube alumni and a trusted resource and verified, trusted contributor. Thank you for coming on and sharing your thoughts on the RSA conference and breaking down the keynote analysis, the RSA conference. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Well, what we got you here to take a minute to plug what you're doing at Lacework, what you're excited about. What's going on over there? >> Sure, I appreciate that. So I just joined Lacework, I'm a weekend. So I'm drinking from the fire hose of knowledge and what I've found so far, fantastic platform, fantastic teams. It's got me wrapped up and excited again because we're approaching, you know security from the data point of view. We're really, we're born in the cloud, built for the cloud and we're trying to help teams really gather context. And the thing that appealed to me about that was that it's not just targeting the security team. It's targeting builders, it's targeting the business, it's giving them that visibility into what's going on so that they can make informed decision. And for me, that's really what security is all about. >> Well, I appreciate you coming on. Thanks so much for sharing. >> Thank you. >> Okay CUBE coverage of RSA conference here with Lacework, I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hi, and welcome to another CUBE Conversation. I'm Stu Miniman coming to you from our Boston area office. We've been in the cloud native ecosystem for many years. We know many open source projects, really helping to drive innovation, help companies modernize what they're doing. And one of the companies that leads one of those initiatives, happy to welcome to the program, we're going to be talking to the co-founder and CTO of Styra, that is Tim Hinrichs. First time on theCUBE, of course, company behind OPA. Tim, thank you for joining us. Welcome to the program. >> Hi Stu, thanks for having me. >> All right, so we've had the CEO of Styra, Bill Mann, on the program before, he's many time CUBE alum, it's your first time, and I always love when I get the founder on the program. Of course the question is, give us the why Tim. There's no shortage of tools out there in the industry, but as we've seen in the ecosystem, there's always companies, I wish something could happen, I wish we had something there. Often they've built it for themselves, and then, create a project. So bring us back a little bit to that origin story and what you and the team, what was the inspiration? >> So when we... the first thing to know is that really at Styra what we're focused on is helping enterprises that are embracing cloud native technology, sort of enforce and control the authorization policies across all their different Cloud native software. So I remember authorization is that problems of which people and which machines can perform which actions on software. And so the way this all got started was we were at DIEMware, before we founded Styra, and we were talking to a number of our customers from finance and tech, and what they did was they had built one of these things. They had built a unified solution policy to manage their authorization needs across many different pieces of software. So at that point we knew that the problem was very real, cause people had to solve it themselves. And so when- >> I'm sorry Tim. Just one thing to make sure I understand this. So in the policy management you talk about there, help me understand how that fits into say identity management which is one of the top things we think about when I'm managing my IT, when I go to the Cloud. It seems related but different, yes? >> Absolutely, yeah. So identity management is really this problem of who are you? It's often solved, from a user's point of view, by providing a username and a password, or a thumbprint, or a multi-factor authentication. That's an important problem that needs to be solved. That's authentication or identity. And it's really about proving who you are. But authorization is the next step, it's about what actions can you perform once you've convinced the machine who you are. And so really that's the piece that we focus on. >> All right, yeah, once can we get people in we need... It's usually you want to give them the least amount of access possible. We understand that from a security standpoint, we need to do this. So you've said what the kind of problem was, and that this is there so how open source?... I mean we know often it's, there's many reasons why projects end up open source. So give us the journey here. >> So it started, we've really got two pieces of software, So one of which, as you say is completely open source, it's become the open policy agent project, we decided to open source it and then eventually donate it to the CNCF because it's sort of mission in life is to make authorization decisions make decisions about if an action that a user or machine is trying to take a safe or not. And, that project is really designed to be a decision maker across all the different kinds of software in the cloud native ecosystem. And so naturally, there's a need for a lot of expertise about a whole bunch of different areas, about a whole bunch of different pieces of software and the best way to sort of leverage all of the world's knowledge about all those different pieces of software is to put that project out into the open. And so for us, it was just an easy, very easy thing to do. Every single line of OPA of code that goes into OPA has been done. >> Well, absolutely it's a project I know I've seen the stickers, I've seen people talking about it in the breakout at KubeCon CloudNativeCon shows. Let's not leave everybody, waiting for the news though Tim, it had been an incubating project, believe you've got some news for us. Yeah, absolutely so OPA has now officially graduated, it's now moved from incubation into the graduation portion the CNCF. And for us, it's really exciting because it really is a reflection of the maturity of the project. Right? There's so many people using OPA and using it to solve all kinds of different use cases. We're even seeing vendors pick it up and offer native integrations with their homegrown software. So it's really exciting to see the progress of the project has made >> It just for audience that might not be familiar. What does this mean now that it's graduated as a maturity level? Is it production? Ready? What what are those criteria that allowed to go from that incubating stage to the graduation? Yeah, so there are a bunch of criteria, but I think the biggest one really is really users in production, right? It has been proven at scale for many different users all over the world, right? CNCF just did a survey recently there, a couple hundred different organizations all across the world who were using open in some way, shape or form. We see it all the time and KubeCon and CloudNativeCon talks, you can hear all about all the folks who were using it. >> Yeah, so maybe it would help if you've got a customer example or use case that you can walk us through as to how exactly that fits. >> For sure yeah. So the nice thing about OPA and more generally Styra is that you can apply it to all different kinds of use cases. So there are a couple of very popular ones using it for Kubernetes admission control or micro service authorization, those are the two most popular right now. And they both work roughly the same way but I'll give you a concrete example. For Kubernetes, anytime some end users trying to spin up any resource, whether the pod or an Ingress or anything on the Kube cluster, you can integrate OPA with that Kube API server and allow open make a decision, is this new resource safe to deploy on the cluster? Or is it not? Micro service authorization works almost exactly the same way, every time one of those micro services receives an API call, it can ask OPA is this API call safe for me to off to execute or not? And so both of those are going to work in basically the same way and that's true for all the other applications and use cases for OPA. >> Okay, and give us some of the stats if you would, how many people how many companies and people contribute to it? What was the customer base look like? >> So think they're a bunch of interesting metrics I think that was the one that's most interesting to me is that number of downloads a week. Right now, we're at roughly a million downloads a week, which is super exciting. I remember those days when we hit that one million mark total and we were very excited. And so now we're at a point where it's every week, we're hitting a million downloads, all kinds of contributors as well and I think, another good metric there to think about are, talks I think we had nearly 50 talks, organic talks from end users on OPA that we ran across it last year. >> Well it's wonderful is the thing we love in that ecosystem there is it's not just using it contributing, to the code, sharing with the community. Tim, what are the challenges in this ecosystem? if you go to the CNCF website and you look at the landscape, it's a little bit scary and taunting just because there's so many different pieces. What I understand from OPA is, are there any dependencies there when you think about, the other services that it interacts with? Or does it just, kind of do its own thing enables customers? >> Yeah, so OPA is, wasn't designed to be a standalone project, right? It doesn't depend on really any other CNCF or really any other project. It was designed to make these policies of these authorization decisions and but at the same time, it's also designed to make it very easy to integrate with a wide range of software systems. And so, I think on the OPA website we've got over 25 different integrations that we are the community have built around OPA, to go ahead and give you and deliver on that vision of unified authorization. >> You mentioned that styro has kind of two pieces help us understand, what is graduating mean for customers in general? And for Styra? Help us understand a little bit more of the business that goes along with it. >> So like I said, that first piece that we build that first piece of software we built was the policy agent project open source, the second piece of software that we built is a control plane for OPA. The idea architecturally behind OPA is that you don't have one copy of OPA running, typically, you might have 10, or 100, or thousand copies of OPA running. And you do that for availability and performance aid for decision making. And so Styra second piece of software is what we call the declarative authorization service. It is a control plane and management plane, a single pane of glass that allows you to operationalize OPA at scale for the enterprise. So it really is designed to give you that ability to control and manage distribute policy, right policy log all the policy decisions for all those Opus. And so that's really where we're, that's the second piece of software that we're putting a lot of effort energy into. >> All right, now that the great graduation is there, what does this mean? Give us a little bit of the roadmap, you're the CTO, we know, there's always, feedbacks and other updates coming. So what should we be expecting to be seeing going forward? >> So there a couple of things I'll mention here, one of which is that with OPA we did a survey recently, just trying to get a sense as to what the community needs and how they're using OPA and so one of the things we found was that the fastest growing use case for OPA, it looks to be application authorization, right? So if you're building a custom application, maybe it's a banking application, that application needs to decide every time a user performs an action is this authorized or not? So if I'm trying to withdraw money from an account, is it safe or not? And so that's the fastest growing use case for OPA that we saw on that and so what I expect to see is more and more people talking about using OPA for that application level authorization. On the Styra side, I think what we're looking forward to is just continuing to chat with the community and understand what they need around operationalizing OPA and making that control plane, that management plane do all the things that enterprises need to operationalize OPA at scale. >> Tim, you've reached the graduation, which is a phenomenal milestone in the project there, there's so many other projects out there wonder what advice you would give to other people starting business, starting a project engaging with the open source community? What have you learned along the way? Any lessons learned? And what feedback would you give others? >> Absolutely, so if I'm talking to somebody else who's interested in, starting an open source project, I'll give them a little bit of advice. So the first of which is that certainly the code matters a lot, it's codes got to be technically sound, it's got to be solving real problems. Everybody understands that. I think what a lot of people understand less of is that when you start a project, you need to put a lot of energy into growing, that community that communication, you need to focus a lot, you need to reach out to end users, and actively engage with them. Help them understand what the project's good for. Help them be successful with it. And so I think that piece is what a lot of people don't really understand, and it's something that I think we that if more people did, we'd see a lot more successful open source projects. >> Alright, Tim, I'll let you have the final word and any final things you want to feed back to the community or, potential customers for Styra? >> Sure, so first of all, I'd like to say thank you to all of our community members, all the users who've worked with us, all the vendors who are taking her doing integrations with OPA, we'd love to see it, we'd love to see more of it. And at the end of the day, I got to say I'm super excited to be working both with OPA and our commercial declared authorization service really deliver on that vision of unified authorization and deliver that to the vote to the world at large. >> Tim, congratulations to you and the OPA team and Styra definitely looking forward to seeing you at the next gathering of the community. And we'l hear more updates in the future. >> Thanks so much for having me. Steve, this is great. >> All right, and be sure to check out the cube.net for all the back catalog of interviews that we've done, including with the CEO Styra as well as upcoming events that we will be at including, of course KubeCon CloudNativeCon North America happening later this year virtually. I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you for watching theCUBE.

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon the 2020 European show of course happening virtually and that has put some unique challenges for the people running the show, really happy to welcome to the program she is one of the co-chairs of this event, and she is also a Principal Software Engineer at Splunk, Constance Caramanolis thank you so much for joining us. >> Hi, thank you for having me, I'm really excited to be here, it's definitely an interesting time. >> Alright, so Constance we know KubeCon it's a great community, robust everybody loves to get together there's some really interesting hallway conversations and so much going on, we've been watching, the four or five years we've been doing theCUBE at this show, just huge explosion of the breadth and depth of the content and of course, great people there. Just, if we could start with a little bit, your background, as I mentioned you're the co-chair, you work for Splunk by way of an acquisition, of Omnition try saying that three times fast, and Omnition you were telling me is a company that was bought really before it came out of stealth, but when it comes to the community itself, how long have you been involved in this community? What kind of led you to being co-chair? >> Yeah, I guess I've been involved with the community since 2017, so, I was at Lyft before Omnition Splunk, and I was lucky enough to be one of the first engineers, on Envoy you might've heard of Envoy, sorry I laugh at my own jokes. (laughing) Like my first exposure to KubeCon and seeing the CNCF community was KubeCon Austin and the thing that I was amazed by was actually you said it the hallway tracks, right? I would just see someone and be like, "Hey, like, I think I've seen your code review can I say hi?" And that started back on me at least a little bit involved in terms of talking to more people then they needed people I would work on a PR or in some of the community meetings and that was my first exposure to the community. And so I was involved in Envoy pretty actively involved in Envoy all the way until from 2016 until mid 2018 and then I switched projects and turning it left and did some other stuff and I came back into CNCF community, in OpenTelemetry as of last year, actually almost exactly a year ago now to work on making tracing, I'm going to say useful and the reason why I say useful is that usually people think of tracing as, not as important as metrics and logs, but there is so much to tracing that we tend to undervalue and that's why I got involved with OpenTelemetry and Omnition, because there's some really interesting ways that you could view tracing, use tracing, and you could answer a lot of questions that we have in our day-to-day and so that's kind of that's how I got involved in the second-round community and then ended up getting nominated to be on the co-chair and I obviously said yes, because this is an amazing opportunity to meet more people and have more of that hallway track. >> Alright, so definitely want to talk about OpenTracing, but let's talk about the event first, as we were talking about. >> Yeah. >> That community you always love the speakers, when they finish a session, they get mobbed by people doing questions. When you walk through the expo hall, you go see people so give us a little bit of insight as to how we're trying to replicate that experience, make sure that there's I don't know office hours for the speakers and just places and spaces for people to connect and meet people. >> Yeah, so I will say that like, part of the challenge with KubeCone EU was that it had already been meant to be an in person event and so we're changing it to virtual, isn't going to be as smooth as a KubeCon or we have the China event that's happening in a few weeks or at Boston, right that's still going on, like, those ones are being thought out a lot more as a proper virtual event. So a little bit of the awkwardness of, now everything is going to be online, right? It's like you can't actually shake someone's hand in a hallway but we are definitely trying to be cognizant of when I'm in terms of future load, like probably less content, right. It's harder to sit in front of a screen and listen to everything and so we know that we know we have enough bandwidth we're trying to find, different pieces of software that allow for better Q and A, right? Exactly, like the mobbing after session is go in as a speaker and one as attendee is sometimes like the best part about conferences is you get to like someone might've said something like, "Hey, like this little tidbit "I need to ask you more questions about this." So we're providing software to at least make that as smooth, and I'm putting this in quotation and as you'll be able to tell anyone who's watching as I speak with my hands. Right, so we're definitely trying to provide software to at least make that initial interaction as smooth as possible, maybe as easy as possible we know it's probably going to be a little bit bumpy just because I think it's also our first time, like everyone, every conference is facing this issue so it's going to be really interesting to see how the conference software evolves. It is things that we've talked about in terms of maybe offering their office hours, for that it's still something that like, I think it's going to be really just an open question for all of us, is that how do we maintain that community? And I think maybe we were talking or kind of when I was like planting the seed of a topic beforehand, it's like it's something I think that matters like, how do we actually define community? 'Cause so much of it has been defined off that hallway track or bumping into someone, right? And going into someone's booth and be like, like asking that question there, because it is a lot more less intimidating to ask something in person than is to ask it online when everyone gets to hear your question, right. I know I ask less questions online, I guess maybe one thing I want to say is that for now that am thinking about it is like, if you have a question please ask questions, right? If recording is done, if there's a recording for a talk, the speakers are usually made available online during the session or a bit afterwards, so please ask your questions when things come up, because that's going to be a really good way to, at least have a bit of that question there. And also don't be shy, please, even when I say like in terms of like, when it comes to review, code reviews, but if something's unintuitive or let's say, think about something else, like interact with it, say it or even ask that question on Twitter, if you're brave enough, I wouldn't but I also barely use Twitter, yeah I don't know it's a big open question I don't know what the community is going to look like and if it's going to be harder. >> Yeah, well, one of the things I know every, every time I go to the show conferences, when the keynote when it's always like, okay, "How many people is this your first time at the show?" And you look around and it's somewhere, third or half people attending for the first time. >> Yeah. I know I'm trying to remember if it was year and a half ago, or so there was created a kind of one-on-one track at the show to really help onboard and give people into the show because when the show started out, it was like okay, it was Kubernetes and a couple of other things now you've got the graduated, the incubated, the dozens of sandbox projects out there and then even more projects out there so, cloud-native is quite a broad topic, there is no wrong way where you can start and there's so many paths that you can go on. So any tips or things that we're doing this time, to kind of help broaden and welcome in those new participants? >> Yeah so there's two things, one is actually the one to attract is official for a KubeCon EU so we do have like, there's a few good talks in terms of like, how to approach KubeCon it was meant to originally be for a person but at least helping people in terms of general terms, right? 'Cause sometimes there's so much terminology that it feels like you need to carry, cloud-native dictionary around with you, doing that and giving suggestions there, so that's one of the first talks that's going to be able to watch on KubeCon so I highly suggest that, This is actually a really tough question because a lot of it would have been like, I guess it would have been for me, would have been in person be like, don't be afraid to like, if you see someone that, said something really interesting in a talk you attended, like, even if it's not after the question, just be like, "Hey, I thought what you said was really cool "and I just want to say I appreciate your work." Like expressing that appreciation and just even if it isn't like the most thoughtful question in the world just saying thank you or I appreciate you as a really good way to open things up because the people who are speaking are just as well most people are probably just as scared of going up there and sharing their knowledge as probably or of asking a question. So I think the main takeaway from that is don't be shy, like maybe do a nervous dance to get those jitters out and then after (laughing) and then ask that question or say like, thank you it's really nice to meet you. It's harder to have a virtual coffee, so hopefully they have their own teapot or coffee maker beside them, but offered you that, send an email I think, one thing that is very common and I have a hard time with this is that it's easy to get overwhelmed with how much content there is or you said it's just like, I first feel small and at least if everyone is focusing on Kubernetes, especially like a few years ago, at least and you're like, maybe that there are a lot of people who are really advanced but now that there's so many different people like so many people from all range of expertise in this subject matter experts, and interests that it's okay to be overwhelmed just be like, I need to take a step back because mentally attending like a few talks a day is like, I feel like it's taking like several exams 'cause there's so much information being bombarded on you and you're trying to process it so understand that you can't process it all in one day and that's okay, come back to it, right. It's a great thing is that all of these talks are recorded and so you can watch it another time, and I would say probably just choose like three or four talks that you're really excited about and listen to those, don't need to watch everything because as I said we can't process it all and that's okay and ask questions. >> Some great advice there because right, if we were there in person it was always, attend what you really want to see, are there speakers you want to engage with? Because you can go back and watch on demand that's been one of the great opportunities with the virtual events is you can have access on demand, you can poke and prod, personally I love that a lot of them you can adjust the speed of them so, if it's something that it's kind of an intro talk, I can crank it up to one and a half or 2X speed and get through more content or I can pause it, rewind if I'm not getting it. And the other opportunity is I tell you the last two or three years, when I'm at an event, I try to just spend my time, not looking at my phone, talking to people, but now there's the opportunity, hey, if I can be of help, if anybody in the community has a question or wants to get connected to somebody, we know a lot of people I'm easily reachable on Twitter and I'm not sitting on a plane or in the middle of something that being like, so there is just a great robust community out there, online, and it were great be a part of it. So speaking of projects, you mentioned OpenTelemetry, which is what, your day job works on it's been a really, interesting topic of course for those that don't know the history, there were actually two projects that merged, it was a OpenTracing and OpenCensus created OpenTelemetry, so why don't you bring us up to speed as to where we are with the project, and what people should be looking at at the show and throughout the rest of 2020? >> OpenTelemetry is very exciting, we just did our first beta release so for anyone who's been on the fence of, is OpenTelemetry getting traction, or is it something that you're like at, this is a really great time to want to get involved in OpenTelemetry and start looking into it, if it's as a viable project, but I guess should probably take a step back of what is OpenTelemetry, OpenTelemetry as you mentioned was the merging or the marriage of OpenTracing-OpenCensus, right? It was an acknowledgement that so many engineers were trying to solve the same problem, but as most of us knows, right, we are trying to solve the same problem, but we had two different implementations and we actually ended up having essentially a lot of waste of resources because we're all trying to solve the same problem, but then we're working on two different implementations. So that marriage was to address that because, right it's like if you look at all of the major players, all of the players on OpenTelemetry, right? They have a wide variety of vendor experience, right even as of speaking from the vendor hat, right vendors are really lucky that they get to work with so many customers and they get to see all these different use cases. Then there's also just so many actually end users who are using it and they have very peculiar use cases, too, even with a wide set of other people, they're not going to obviously have that, so OpenTelemetry gets to merge all of those different use cases into one, or I guess not into one, but like into a wide set of implementations, but at least it's maintained by a larger group instead of having two separate. And so the first goal was to unify tracing tracing is really far ahead in terms of implementation,, or several implementations of libraries, like Go, Java, Python, Ruby, like on other languages right now but quite a bit of lists there and there's even a collector too which some people might refer to as an agent, depending on what background they have. And so there's a lot of ways to one, implement tracing and also metrics for your services and also gather that data and manipulate it, right? 'Cause for example, tracings so tracing where it's like you can generate a lot of traces, but sometimes missing data and like the collector is a really great place to add data to that, so going back to the state of OpenTelemetry, OpenTelemetry since we just did a beta release, right, we're getting closer to GA. GA is something that we're tracking for at some point this year, no dates yet but it's something that we're really pushing towards, but we're starting to have a very stable API in terms of tracing a metric was on its way, log was all something we're wrapping up on. It is a really great opportunity to, all the different ways that we are that, we even say like service owners, applications, even business rate that we're trying to collect data and have visibility into our applications, this is a really great way to provide one common framework to generate all that data, to gather all that data and generate all that data. So it was really exciting and I don't know, we just want more users and why we say that is to the earlier point is that the more users that we have who are engaged with community, right if you want to open an issue, have a question if you want to set up a PR please do, like we really want more community engagement. It is a great time to do that because we are just starting to get traction, right? Like hopefully, hopefully in a year or two, like we are one of those really big, big projects right up on a CNCF KubeCon and it's like, let's see how much has grown. And it's a great time to join and help influence a project and so many chances for ownership, I know it's really exciting, the company-- >> Excellent well Constance, it's really exciting >> Yeah. >> Congratulations on the progress there, I'm sure everybody's looking forward to as you said GA later this year, want to give you the final word, yourself and Vicky Cheung as the co-chairs for the event, what's your real goal? What do you hope the takeaway is from this instance of the 2020 European show? Of course, virtual now instead of Amsterdam. I guess like two parts one for the takeaway is that it's probably going to be awkward, right? Especially again going back to the community is that we don't have a lot of that in person things so this will be an awkward interaction, but it's a really great place for us to want to assess what a community means to us and how we interact with the community. So I think it's going to be going into it with an open mindset of just knowing like, don't set the expectations, like any other KubeCon because we just know it won't be right, we can't even have like the after hours, like going out for coffee or drinks and other stuff there so having that there and being open to that being different and then also if you have ideas share it with us, 'cause we want to know how we can make it better, so expect that it's different, but it's still going to provide you with a lot of that content that you've been looking for and we still want to make that as much of a welcoming experience for you, so know that we're doing our best and we're open to feedback and we're here for you. >> Excellent, well Constance thank you so much for the work that you and the team have been doing on. absolutely, one of the events that we always look forward to, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> Alright, lots more coverage of theCUBE at KubeCon-Cloud Native on Europe 2020, I'm Stu Miniman and thanks for watching. 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>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon LIVE 2020, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of DockerCon LIVE 2020. Happy to welcome back to the program one of our CUBE alumni, Deepak Singh. He's the vice president of compute services at Amazon Web Services. Deepak, great to see you. >> Likewise, hi, Stu. Nice to meet you again. >> All right, so for our audience that hasn't been in your previous times on theCUBE, give us a little bit about, you know, your role and your organization inside AWS? >> Yeah, so I'm, I've been part of the AWS compute services world from, for the last 12 years in various capacities. Today, I run a number of teams, all our container services, our Linux teams, I also happen to run a high performance computing organization, so it's a nice mix of all the computing that our customers do, especially some of the more new and large scale compute types that our customers are doing. >> All right, so Deepak, obviously, you know, the digital events, we understand what's happening with the global pandemic. DockerCon was actually always planned to be an online event but I want to understand, you know, your teams, how things are affecting, we know distributed is something that Amazon's done, but you have to cut up those two pizza and send them out to the additional groups or, you know, what advice are you giving the developers out there? >> Yeah, in many ways, obviously, how we operate has changed. We are at home, maybe I think with our families. DockerCon was always going to be virtual, but many other events like AWS Summits are now virtual so, you know, in some ways, the teams, the people that get most impacted are not necessarily the developers in our team but people who interact a lot with customers, who go to conferences and speak and they are finding new ways of being effective and being successful and they've been very creative at it. Our customers are getting very good at working with us virtually because we can always go to their site, they can always come to Seattle, or run of other sites for meeting. So we've all become very good at, and disciplined at how do you conduct really nice virtual meetings. But from a customer commitment side, from how we are operating, the things that we're doing, not that much has changed. We still run our projects the same way, the teams work together. My team tends to do a lot of happy things like Friday happy hours, they happen to be all virtual. I think last time we played, what word, bingo? I forget exactly what game we played. I know I got some point somewhere. But we do our best to maintain sort of our team chemistry or camaraderie but the mission doesn't change which is our customers expect us to keep operating their services, make sure that they're highly available, keep delivering new capabilities and I think in this environment, in some ways that's even more important than ever, as customer, as the consumer moves online and so much business is being done virtually so it keeps us on our toes but it's been an adjustment but I think we are all, not just us, I think the whole world is doing the best that they can under the circumstances. >> Yeah, absolutely, it definitely has humanized things quite a bit. From a technology standpoint, Deepak, you know, distributed systems has really been the challenge of you know, quite a long journey that people have been going on. Docker has played, you know, a really important role in a lot of these cloud native technologies. It's been just amazing to watch, you know, one of the things I point to in my career is, you know, watching from those very, very early days of Docker to the Cambrian explosion of what we've seen container based services, you know, you've been part of it for quite a number of years and AWS had many services out there. For people that are getting started, you know, what guidance do you give them? What do they understand about, you know, containerization in 2020? >> Yeah, containerization in 2020 is quite a bit different from when Docker started in 2013. I remember speaking at DockerCon, I forget, that's 2014, 2015, and it was a very different world. People are just trying to figure out what containers are that they could package code in deeper. Today, containers are mainstream, it is more customers or at least many customers and they are starting to build new applications, probably starting them either with containers or with some form of server technology. At least that's the default starting point but increasingly, we also seen customers with existing applications starting to think about how do they adapt? And containers are a means to an end. The end is how can we move faster? How can we deliver more quickly? How can our teams be more productive? And how can you do it more, less expensively, at lower cost? And containers are a big part, important and critical piece of that puzzle, both from how customers are operating their infrastructure, that there's a whole ecosystem of schedulers and orchestration and security tools and all the things that an enterprise need to deliver applications using containers that they have built up. Over the last few years, you know, we have multiple container services that meet those needs. And I think that's been the biggest change is that there's so much more. Which also means that when you're getting started, you're faced with many more options. When Docker started, it was this cute whale, Docker run, Docker build Docker push, it was pretty simple, you could get going really quickly. And today you have 500 different options. My guidance to customers really is, boils down to what are you trying to achieve? If you're an organization that's trying to corral infrastructure and trying to use an existing VM more effectively, for example, you probably do want to invest in becoming experts at schedulers and understanding orchestration technologies like ECS and EKS work but if you just want to run applications, you probably want to look at something like Fargate or more. I mean, you could go towards Lambda and just run code. But I think it all boils down to where you're starting your journey. And by the way, understanding Docker run, Docker build and Docker push is still a great idea. It helps you understand how things work. >> All right, so Deepak, you've already brought up a couple of AWS services of, you know, talk about the options out there, that you can either run on top of AWS, you have a lot of native services, you know, ECS, EKS, you mentioned, Fargate there, and very broad ecosystem in space. Could you just, you know, obviously, there are entire breakout sessions to talk about , the various AWS services, but you know, give us that one on one level as to what to understand for container service by AWS. >> Yeah, and these services evolved organically and we launched the Amazon Elastic Container Service or ECS in preview in November or whenever re:Invent was that year in 2014, which seems ages ago in the world of containers but in the end, our goal is to give our customers the most choice, so that they can solve problems the way they want to solve them. So Amazon ECS is our native container orchestration service, it's designed to work with and the rest of the AWS ecosystem. So it uses VPC for networking, it uses IAM identity, it uses ALB for load balancing, other than just good examples, some examples of how it works. But it became pretty clear over time that there was a lot of customers who were investing in communities, very often starting in their own data centers. And as they migrated onto the cloud, they wanted to continue using the same tool plane but they also wanted to not have to manage the complexity of communities control planes, upgrades. And they also wanted some of the same integrations that they were getting with ECS and so that's where the Amazon Elastic Kubernetes Service or EKS comes in, which is, okay, we will manage a control plane for you. We will manage upgrades and patches for you. You focus on building your applications in Kubernetes way, so it embraces Kubernetes. It has, invokes with all the Kubernetes tooling and gives you a Kubernetes native experience, but then also ties into the broad AWS ecosystem and allows us to take care of some of the muck that many customers quite frankly don't and shouldn't have to worry about. But then we took it one step further and actually launched the same time as EKS and that's, AWS Fargate, and Fargate was, came from the recognition that we had, actually, a long time ago, which is, one of the beauties of EC2 was that customers never had, had to stop, didn't have to worry about racking and stacking and where a server was running anymore. And the idea was, how can we apply that to the world of containers. And we also learned a little bit from what we had done with Lambda. And we took that and took the server layer and took it out of the way. Then from a customer standpoint, all you're launching is a pod or a task or a service and you're not worrying about which machines I need to get, what types of machines I need to get. And the operational simplicity that comes with it is quite remarkable and quite finding not that, surprisingly, our customers want us to keep pushing the boundary of the kind operational simplicity we can give them but Fargate serves a critical building block and part of that, and we're super excited because, you know, today by far when a new customer, when a customer comes and runs a container on AWS the first time they pick Fargate, we're usually using ECS because EKS and Fargate is much newer, but that is a default starting point for any new container customer on AWS which is great. >> All right, well, you know, Docker, the company really helped a lot with that democratization, container technologies, you know, all those services that you talked about from AWS. I'm curious now, the partnership with Docker here, you know, how do some of the AWS services, you know, fit in with Docker? I'm thinking Docker Desktop probably someplace that they're, you know, or some connection? >> Yeah, I think one of the things that Docker has always been really good at as a company, as a project, is understanding the developer and the fact that they start off on a laptop. That's where the original Docker experience that go well, and Docker Desktop since then and we see a ton of Docker Desktop customers have used AWS. We also learned very early on, because originally ECS CLI supported Docker Compose. That ecosystem is also very rich and people like building Docker files and post files and just being able to launch them. So we continue to learn from what Docker is doing with Docker Desktop. We continue working with them on making sure that customizing the Docker Compose and Docker Desktop can run all their services and application on AWS. And we'll continue working with Docker, the company, on how we make that a lot easier for our customers, they are our mutual customers, and how we can learn from their simplicity that Docker, the simplicity that Docker brings and the sort of ease of use the Docker bring for the developer and the developer experience. We learn from that for our own services and we love working with them to make sure that the customer that's starting with Docker Desktop or the Docker CLI has a great experience as they move towards a fully orchestrated experience in the cloud, for example. There's a couple of other areas where Docker has turned out to have had foresight and driven some of our thinking. So a few years ago, Docker released this thing called containerd, where they took out their container runtime from inside the bigger Docker engine. And containerd has become a very important project for us as well as, it's the underpinning of Fargate now and we see a lot of interest from customers that want to keep building on containerd as well. And it's going to be very interesting to see how we work with Docker going forward and how we can continue to give our customers a lot of value, starting from the laptop and then ending up with large scale services in the cloud. >> Very interesting stuff, you know, interesting. Anytime we have a conversation about Docker, there's Docker the technology and Docker the company and that leads us down the discussion of open-source technologies . You were just talking about, you know, containerd believe that connects us to Firecracker. What you and your team are involved in, what's your viewpoint is the, you know, what you're seeing from open-source, how does Amazon think of that? And what else can you share with the audience on this topic? >> Yeah, as you've probably seen over the last few years, both from our work in Kubernetes, with things like Firecracker and more recently Bottlerocket. AWS gets deeply involved with open-source in a number of ways. We are involved heavily with a number of CNCF projects, whether it be containerd, whether it be things like Kubernetes itself, projects in the Kubernetes ecosystem, the service mesh world with Envoy and with the containerd project. So where containerd fits in really well with AWS is in a project that we call firecracker-containerd. They're effectively for Fargate, firecracker-containerd as we move Fargate towards Firecracker becomes out of the container in which you run containerd. It's effectively the equivalent of runC in a traditional Docker engine world. And, you know, one of the first things we did when Firecracker got rolled out was open-source the firecracker-containerd project. It's a go project and the idea was it's a great way for people to build VM like isolation and then build sort of these serverless container architectures like we want to do with Fargate. And, you know, I think Firecracker itself has been a great success. You see customer, you know, companies like Libvirt integrating with Firecracker. I've seen a few other examples of, sometimes unbeknownst to us, of people picking a Firecracker and using it for very, very interesting use cases and not just on AWS in other places as well. And we learnt a lot from that that's kind of why Bottlerocket is, was released the way it was. It is both a product and a project. Bottlerocket, the operating system is an open-source project. It's on GitHub, it has all the building tooling, you can take it and do whatever you want with it. And then on the AWS side, we will build and publish Bottlerocket armies, Amazon machine images, we will support them on AWS and there it's a product. But then Bottlerocket the project is something that anybody in the world who wants to run a minimal operating system can choose to pick up. And I think we've learnt a lot from these experiences, how we deal with the community, how we work with other people who are interested in contributing. And you know, Docker is one of the, the Docker open-source pieces and Docker the company are both part of the growing open-source ecosystem that's coming from AWS, especially on the container world. So it's going to be very interesting. And I'll end with, containerization has started impacting other parts of AWS, as well as our other services are being built, very often through ECS and EKS, but they're also influencing how we think about what capabilities we need to build into the broader container ecosystem. >> Yeah, Deepak, you know, you mentioned that some of the learnings from Lambda has impacted the services you're doing on the containerization side. You know, we've been watching some of the blurring of the lines between another container world and the containerization world. You know, there's some open-source projects out there, the CNCS working on things, you know, what's the latest, as you see kind of containerization and serverless and you know, where do you see them going forward? >> This is that I say that crystal balls are not my strong suite. But we hear customers, customers often want the best of both world. What we see very often is that customers don't actually choose just Fargate or just Lambda, they'll choose both. Where for different pieces of their architecture, they may pick a different solution. And sometimes that's driven by what they know, sometimes driven by what fits into their need. Some of the lines blur but they're still quite different. Lambda, for example, as a very event driven architecture, it is one process at a time. It has all these event hooks into the rest of AWS that are hard to replicate. And if that's the world you want to live in or benefit from, you're going to use lambda. If you're running long running services or you want a particular size that you don't get in Lambda or you want to take a more traditional application and convert it into a more modern application, chances are you're starting on Fargate but it fits in really well you have an existing operational model that fits into it. So we see applications evolving very interestingly. It's one reason why when we build a service mesh, we thought forward instead. It is almost impossible that we will have a world that's 100% containers, 100% Lambda or 100% EC2. It's going to be some mix of all of these. We have to think about it that way. And it's something that we constantly think about is how can we do things in a way that companies aren't forced to pick one way to it and "Oh, I'm going to build on Fargate" and then months later, they're like, "Yeah, we should have probably done Lambda." And I think that is something we think a lot about, whether it's from a developer's experience side or if it's from service meshes, which allow you to move back and forth or make the mesh. And I think that is the area where you'll see us do a lot more going forward. >> Excellent, so last last question for you Deepak is just give us a little bit as to what, you know, industry watchers will be looking at the container services going forward, next kind of 12, 18 months? >> Yeah, so I think one of the great things of the last 18 months has been that type of application that we see customers running, I don't think there's any bound to it. We see everything from people running microservices, or whatever you want to call decoupled services these days, but are services in the end, people are running, most are doing a lot of batch processing, machine learning, artificial intelligence that work with containers. But I think where the biggest dangers are going to come is as companies mature, as companies make containers, not just things that they build greenfield applications but also start thinking about migrating legacy applications in much more volume. A few things are going to happen. I think we'll be, containers come with a lot of complexity right now. I think you've, if you've seen my last two talks at re:Invent along with David Richardson from the Lambda team. You'll hear that we talk a lot about the fact that we see, we've made customers think about more things than they used to in the pre container world. I think you'll see now that the early adopter techie part has done, cloud has adopted containers and the next wave of mainstream users is coming in, you'll see more attractions come on as well, you'll see more governance, I think service meshes have a huge role to play here. How identity works or this fits into things like control tower and more sort of enterprise focused tooling around how you put guardrails around your containerized applications. You'll see it two or three different directions, I think you'll see a lot more on the serverless side, just the fact that so many customers start with Fargate, they're going to make us do more. You'll see a lot more on the ease of use developer experience of production side because you started off with the folks who like to tinker and now you're getting more and more customers that just want to run. And then you'll see, and that's actually a place where Docker, the company and the project have a lot to offer, because that's always been different. And then on the other side, you have the governance guardrails, and how is going to be in a compliant environment, how am I going to migrate all these applications over so that work will keep going on and you'll more and more of that. So those are the three buckets I'll use, the world can surprise us and you might end up with something completely radically different but that seems like what we're hearing from our customers right now. >> Excellent, well, Deepak, always a pleasure to catch up with you. Thanks so much for joining us again on theCUBE. >> No, always a pleasure Stu and hopefully, we get to do this again someday in person. >> Absolutely, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks as always for watching theCUBE. >> Deepak: Yep, thank you. (gentle music)

>> From around the globe. It's theCUBE, with digital coverage of DockerCon Live 2020. brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome to DockerCon 2020. I'm John Furrier here in the DockerCon virtual studios. It's CUBE studios it's theCUBE virtual meets DuckerCon 2020 virtual event with my coach, Jenny Barocio and Peter McKee, as well as Brett Fisher, over on the captains who's doing his sessions. This is the wrap up of the long day of continuous amazing action packed DockerCon 2020. Jenny and Peter, what a day we still got the energy. We can go another 24 hours, let's do it now. This is a wrap up. So exciting day, tons of sessions, great feedback. Twitter's on fire the chats and engagements are on fire, but this is the time where we do the most coveted piece, the community awards, so Jenny, this is the time for you to deliver the drum roll for the community awards, take it away. >> Okay, (mumbles) It's the past few years and have been able to recognize those in the community that deliver so much to everyone else. And even though we're wrapping up here, there is still other content going on because we just couldn't stop till five o'clock. Peter what's happening right now? >> Yeah, so over in the Devs in Action channel, we have earning Docker Daemon with rootless mode. That's still going on, should be a great talk. And then in the How To channel, we have transforming open source into live service with Docker. They're still running now, two great talks. >> Awesome, and then the captains are still going. I think they probably started the after party already, although this channel's going to wait till, you know, 30 more minutes for that one. So if you're an after party mode, definitely go check out after we announced the awards, Brett and Marcos and Jeff and the captain's channel. So, we have some great things to share. And I mentioned it in my last segment, but nothing happens without the collective community. DockerCon is no exception. So, I really just want to take a moment again to thank the Docker team, the attendees, our sponsors and our community leaders and captains. They've been all over the virtual conference today, just like they would have been at a real conference. And I love the energy. You know, as an organizer planning a virtual event, there's always the concern of how it's going to work. Right, this is new for lots of people, but I'm in Florida and I'm thrilled with how everyone showed up today. Yeah, for sure. And to the community done some excellent things, Marcus, over them in the Captain's channel, he has built out PWD play with Docker. So, if you haven't checked that out, please go check that out. We going to be doing some really great things with that. Adding some, I think I mentioned earlier in the day, but we're adding a lot of great content into their. A lot more labs, so, please go check that out. And then talking about the community leaders, you know, they bring a lot to the community. They put there their free time in, right? No one paying them. And they do it just out of sheer joy to give back to the community organizing events. I don't know if you ever organized an event Jenny I know you have, but they take a lot of time, right? You have to plan everything, you have to get sponsors, you have to find out place to host. And now with virtual, you have to figure out how you're going to deliver the feel of a meetup in virtually. And we just had our community summit the other day and we heard from the community leaders, what they're doing, they're doing some really cool stuff. Live streaming, Discord, pulling in a lot of tools to be able to kind of recreate that, feel of being together as a community. So super excited and really appreciate all the community leaders for putting in the extra effort one of these times. >> Yeah, for really adapting and continuing in their mission and their passion to share and to teach. So, we want to recognize a few of those awesome community leaders. And I think we get to it right now Peter, are you ready? >> Set, let's go for it, right away. >> All right, so, the first community leaders are from Docker Bangalore and they are rocking it. Sangam Biradar, Ajeet singh Raina and Saiyam Pathak, thank you all so much for your commitment to this community. >> All right, and the next one we have is Docker Panang. Thank you so much to Sujay Pillai, did a great job. >> Got to love that picture and that shirt, right? >> Yeah. >> All right, next up, we'd love to recognize Docker Rio, Camila Martins, Andre Fernande, long time community leaders. >> Yeah, if I ever get a chance that's. I have a bunch of them that I want to go travel and visit but Rio is on top of list I think. >> And then also-- >> Rio maybe That could be part of the award, it's, you get to. >> I can deliver. >> Go there, bring them their awards in person now, as soon as we can do that again. >> That would be awesome, that'd be awesome. Okay, the next one is Docker Guatemala And Marcos Cano, really appreciate it and that is awesome. >> Awesome Marcos has done, has organized and put on so many meetups this last year. Really, really amazing. All right, next one is Docker Budapest and Lajos Papp, Karoly Kass and Bence Lvady, awesome. So, the mentorship and leadership coming out of this community is fantastic and you know, we're so thrilled to write, now is you. >> All right, and then we go to Docker Algeria. Yeah we got some great all over the country it's so cool to see. But Ayoub Benaissa, it's been great look at that great picture in background, thank you so much. >> I think we need we need some clap sound effects here. >> Yeah where's Beth. >> I'm clapping. >> Lets, lets. >> Alright. >> Last one, Docker Chicago, Mark Panthofer. After Chicago, Docker Milwaukee and Docker Madison one meet up is not enough for Mark. So, Mark, thank you so much for spreading your Docker knowledge throughout multiple locations. >> Yeah, and I'll buy half a Docker. Thank you to all of our winners and all of our community leaders. We really, really appreciate it. >> All right, and the next award I have the pleasure of giving is the Docker Captain's Award. And if you're not familiar with captains, Docker captains are recognized by Docker for their outstanding contributions to the community. And this year's winner was selected by his fellow captains for his tireless commitment to that community. On behalf of Docker and the captains. And I'm sure the many many people that you have helped, all 13.3 million of them on Stack Overflow and countless others on other platforms, the 2020 tip of the Captain's Hat award winner is Brandon Mitchell, so so deserving. And luckily Brandon made it super easy for me to put together this slide because he took his free DockerCon selfie wearing his Captains' Hat, so it worked out perfectly. >> Yeah, I have seen Brandon not only on Stack Overflow, but in our community Slack answering questions, just in the general area where everybody. The questions are random. You have everybody from intermediate to beginners and Brandon is always in there answering questions. It's a huge help. >> Yeah, always in there answering questions, sharing code, always providing feedback to the Docker team. Just such a great voice, both in and out for Docker. I mean, we're so proud to have you as a captain, Brandon. And I'm so excited to give you this award. All right, so, that was the most fun, right? We get to do the community awards. Do you want to do any sort of recap on the day? >> What was your favorite session? What was your favorite tweet? Favorite tweet was absolutely Peter screenshotting his parents. >> Mom mom my dear mom, it's sweet though, that's sweet. I appreciate it, can't believe they gave me an award. >> Yeah, I mean, have they ever seen you do a work presentation before? >> No, they've seen me lecture my kids a lot and I can go on about life's lessons and then I'm not sure if it's the same thing but yeah. >> I don't think so. >> No they have never see me. >> Peter you got to get the awards for the kids. That's the secret to success, you know, and captain awards and the community household awards for the kids. >> Yeah, well I am grooming my second daughter, she teaches go to afterschool kids and never thought she would be interested in programming cause when she was younger she wasn't interested in, but yes, super interested in now I have to, going to bring her into the community now, yeah. >> All right, well, great awards. Jenny is there any more awards, we good on the awards? >> Nope, we are good on the awards, but certainly not the thank yous is for today. It's an absolute honor to put on an event like this and have the community show up, have our speakers show up have the Docker team show up, right? And I'm just really thrilled. And I think the feedback has been phenomenal so far. And so I just really want to thank our speakers and our sponsors and know that, you know, while DockerCon may be over, like what we did today here and it never ends. So, thank you, let's continue the conversation. There's still things going on and tons of sessions on demand now, you can catch up, okay. >> One more thing, I have to remind everybody. I mentioned it earlier, but I got to say it again go back, watch the keynote. And I'll say at this time there is an Easter egg in there. I don't think anybody's found it yet. But if you do, tweet me and might be a surprise. >> Well you guys-- >> Are you watching your tweet feed right now? Because you're going to get quite a few. >> Yeah, it's probably blowing up right now. >> Well you got to get on a keynote deck for sure. Guys, it's been great, you guys have been phenomenal. It's been a great partnership, the co-creation this event. And again, what's blows me away is the global reach of the event, the interaction, the engagement and the cost was zero to attend. And that's all possible because of the sponsors. Again, shout out to Amazon web services, Microsoft Azure Engine X, Cockroach Labs and sneak of Platinum sponsors. And also we had some ecosystem sponsors. And if you liked the event, go to the sponsors and say hello and say, thank you. They're all listed on the page, hit their sessions and they really make it possible. So, all this effort on all sides have been great. So, awesome, I learned a lot. Thanks everyone for watching. Peter you want to get a final word and then I'll give Jenny the final, final word. >> No again, yes, thank you, thank you everybody. It's been great, theCUBE has been phenomenal. People behind the scenes has been just utterly professional. And thank you Jenny, if anybody doesn't know, you guys don't know how much Jenny shepherds this whole process through she's our captain internally making sure everything stays on track and gets done. You cannot even imagine what she does. It's incredible, so thank you, Jenny. I really, really appreciate it. >> Jenny, take us home, wrap this up 2020, dockerCon. >> All Right. >> In the books, but it's going to be on demand. It's 365 days a year now, come on final word. >> It's not over, it's not over. Community we will see you tomorrow. We will continue to see you, thank you to everyone. I had a great day, I hope everyone else did too. And happy DockerCon 2020, see you next year. >> Okay, that's a wrap, see on the internet, everyone. I'm John, for Jenny and Peter, thank you so much for your time and attention throughout the day. If you were coming in and out, remember, go see those sessions are on a calendar, but now they're a catalog of content and consume and have a great evening. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>long from Las Vegas. It's the Q covering a ws re invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web service is and in along with its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the Cube. Here live in Las Vegas for aws reinvent I'm John for a devil on the ads, always extracting the signal from the noise. We're here for 1/7 reinvent of the eight years that they've had at what a wave. One of the biggest waves is the modernization of procurement, the modernization of business, commercial business and the rapid acceleration of public sector. We're here with the chief of public sector for AWS. Teresa Carlson, vice president publics that globally great to have you >>so great to have the Q begin this year. We appreciate you being here, >>so we're just seeing so much acceleration of modernization. Even in the commercial side, 80 talks about transformation. It's just a hard core on the public sector side. You have so many different areas transforming faster because they haven't transformed before. That's correct. This is a lot of change. What's changed the most for you in your business? >>Well, again, I'll be here 10 years this mad that A B s and my eighth reinvent, and what really changed, which was very exciting this year, is on Monday. We had 550 international government executives here from 40 countries who were talking about their modernization efforts at every level. Now again, think about that. 40 different governments, 550 executives. We had a fantastic day for them planned. It was really phenomenal because the way that these international governments or think about their budget, how much are they going to use that for maintaining? And they want to get that lesson last. Beckett for Modernization The Thin John It's a Beckett for innovation so that they continue not only modernized, but they're really looking at innovation cycles. So that's a big one. And then you heard from somewhere customers at the breakfast this morning morning from from a T. F. As part of the Department of Justice. What they're doing out. I'll call to back on firearms. They completely made you the cloud. They got rid of 20 years of technical debt thio the Veterans Administration on what they're digging for V A benefits to educational institutions like our mighty >>nose, and he had on stages Kino, Cerner, which the health care companies and what struck me about that? I think it relates to your because I want to get your reaction is that the health care is such an acute example that everyone can relate to rising costs. So cloud helping reduce costs increase the efficiencies and patient care is a triple win. The same thing happens in public sector. There's no place to hide anymore. You have a bona fide efficiencies that could come right out of the gate with cloud plus innovation. And it's happening in all the sectors within the public sector. >>So true. Well, Cerner is a great example because they won the award at V a Veteran's administration to do the whole entire medical records modernization. So you have a company on stage that's commercial as I met, commercial as they are public sector that are going into these large modernization efforts. And as you sit on these air, not easy. This takes focus and leadership and a real culture change to make these things happen. >>You know, the international expansion is impressive. We saw each other in London. We did the health care drill down at your office is, of course, a national health. And then you guys were in Bahrain, and what I deserve is it's not like these organizations. They're way behind. I mean, especially the ones that it moved to. The clouds are moving really fast. So well, >>they don't have as much technical debt internationally. It's what we see here in the U. S. So, like I was just in Africa and you know what we talked about digitizing paper. Well, there's no technology on that >>end >>there. It's kind of exciting because they can literally start from square one and get going. And there's a really hunger and the need to make that happen. So it's different for every country in terms of where they are in their cloud journey. >>So I want to ask you about some of the big deals. I'll see Jet eyes in the news, and you can't talk about it because it's in protest and little legal issues. But you have a lot of big deals that you've done. You share some color commentary on from the big deals and what it really means. >>Yeah, well, first of all, let me just say with Department of Defense, Jet are no jet. I We have a very significant business, you know, doing work at every part of different defense. Army, Navy, Air Force in the intelligence community who has a mission for d o d terminus a t o N g eight in a row on And we are not slowing down in D. O d. We had, like, 250 people at a breakfast. Are Lantian yesterday giving ideas on what they're doing and sharing best practices around the fence. So we're not slowing down in D. O d. We're really excited. We have amazing partners. They're doing mission work with us. But in terms of some really kind of fend, things have happened. We did a press announcement today with Finn Rat, the financial regulatory authority here in the U. S. That regulates markets at this is the largest financial transactions you'll ever see being processed and run on the cloud. And the program is called Cat Consolidated Audit Trail. And if you remember the flash crash and the markets kind of going crazy from 2000 day in 2008 when it started, Finneran's started on a journey to try to understand why these market events were happening, and now they have once have been called CAT, which will do more than 100 billion market points a day that will be processed on the cloud. And this is what we know of right now, and they'll be looking for indicators of nefarious behavior within the markets. And we'll look for indicators on a continuous basis. Now what? We've talked about it. We don't even know what we don't know yet because we're getting so much data, we're going to start processing and crunching coming out of all kinds of groups that they're working with, that this is an important point even for Finn rep. They're gonna be retiring technical debt that they have. So they roll out Cat. They'll be retiring other systems, like oats and other programs that they >>just say so that flash crash is really important. Consolidated, honest, because the flash crash, we'll chalk it up to a glitch in the system. Translation. We don't really know what happened. Soto have a consolidated auto trail and having the data and the capabilities, I understand it is really, really important for transparency and confidence in the >>huge and by the way, thinner has been working with us since 2014. They're one of our best partners and are prolific users of the cloud. And I will tell you it's important that we have industries like thin red regulatory authorities, that air going in and saying, Look, we couldn't possibly do what we're doing without cloud computing. >>Tell me about the technical debt because I like this conversation is that we talk about in the commercial side and developer kind of thinking. Most businesses start ups, Whatever. What is technical debt meet in public sector? Can you be specific? >>Well, it's years and years of legacy applications that never had any modernization associated with them in public sector. You know now, because you've talked about these procurement, your very best of your very savvy now public sector >>like 1995 >>not for the faint of heart, for sure that when you do procurement over the years when they would do something they wouldn't build in at new innovations or modernizations. So if you think about if you build a data center today a traditional data center, it's outdated. Tomorrow, the same thing with the procurement. By the time that they delivered on those requirements. They were outdated. So technical debt then has been built up years of on years of not modernizing, just kind of maintaining a status quo with no new insides or analytics. You couldn't add any new tooling. So that is where you see agencies like a T F. That has said, Wow, if I'm gonna if I'm gonna have a modern agency that tracks things like forensics understands the machine learning of what's happening in justice and public safety, I need to have the most modern tools. And I can't do that on an outdated system. So that's what we kind of call technical death that just maintains that system without having anything new that you're adding to >>their capabilities lag. Everything's products bad. Okay, great. Thanks for definite. I gotta ask you about something that's near and dear to our heart collaboration. If you look at the big successes in the world and within Amazon Quantum Caltex partnering on the quantum side, you've done a lot of collaboration with Cal Cal Poly for ground station Amazon Educate. You've been very collaborative in your business, and that's a continuing to be a best practice you have now new things like the cloud innovation centers. Talk about that dynamic and how collaboration has become an important part of your business model. >>What we use their own principles from Amazon. We got building things in our plan. Innovation centers. We start out piloting those two to see, Could they work? And it's really a public private partnership between eight MPs and universities, but its universities that really want to do something. And Cal Poly's a great example. Arizona State University A great example. The number one most innovative university in the US for like, four years in a row. And what we do is we go in and we do these public sector challenges. So the collaboration happens. John, between the public sector Entity, university with students and us, and what we bring to the table is technical talent, air technology and our mechanisms and processes, like they're working backwards processes, and they were like, We want you to bring your best and brightest students. Let's bring public sector in the bowl. They bring challenges there, riel that we can take on, and then they can go back and absorb, and they're pretty exciting. I today I talked about we have over 44 today that we've documented were working at Cal Poly. The one in Arizona State University is about smart cities. And then you heard We're announcing new ones. We've got two in France, one in Germany now, one that we're doing on cybersecurity with our mighty in Australia to be sitting bata rain. So you're going to see us Add a lot more of these and we're getting the results out of them. So you know we won't do if we don't like him. But right now we really like these partnerships. >>Results are looking good. What's going on with >>you? All right. And I'll tell you why. That why they're different, where we are taking on riel public sector issues and challenges that are happening, they're not kind of pie in the sky. We might get there because those are good things to do. But what we want to do is let's tackle things that are really homelessness, opioid crisis, human sex trafficking, that we're seeing things that are really in these communities and those air kind of grand. But then we're taking on areas like farming where we talked about Can we get strawberries rotting on the vine out of the field into the market before you lose billions of dollars in California. So it's things like that that were so its challenges that are quick and riel. And the thing about Cloud is you can create an application and solution and test it out very rapidly without high cost of doing that. No technical Dan, >>you mentioned Smart Cities. I just attended a session. Marty Walsh, the mayor of Boston's, got this 50 50 years smart city plan, and it's pretty impressive, but it's a heavy lift. So what do you see going on in smart cities? And you really can't do it without the cloud, which was kind of my big input cloud. Where's the data? What do you say, >>cloud? I O. T is a big part at these. All the centers that Andy talked about yesterday in his keynote and why the five G partnerships are so important. These centers, they're gonna be everywhere, and you don't even know they really exist because they could be everywhere. And if you have the five G capabilities to move those communications really fast and crypt them so you have all the security you need. This is game changing, but I'll give you an example. I'll go back to the kids for a minute at at Arizona State University, they put Io TI centers everywhere. They no traffic patterns. Have any parking slots? Airfield What Utilities of water, if they're trash bins are being filled at number of seats that are being taken up in stadiums. So it's things like that that they're really working to understand. What are the dynamics of their city and traffic flow around that smart city? And then they're adding things on for the students like Alexis skills. Where's all the activity? So you're adding all things like Alexa Abs, which go into a smart city kind of dynamic. We're not shop. Where's the best activities for about books, for about clothes? What's the pizza on sale tonight? So on and then two things like you saw today on Singapore, where they're taking data from all different elements of agencies and presenting that bad to citizen from their child as example Day one of a birth even before, where's all the service is what I do? How do I track these things? How do I navigate my city? to get all those service is the same. One can find this guy things they're not. They're really and they're actually happening. >>Seems like they're instrumented a lot of the components of the city learning from that and then deciding. Okay, where do we double down on where do we place? >>You're making it Every resilient government, a resilient town. I mean, these were the things that citizens can really help take intro Web and have a voice in doing >>threes. I want to say congratulations to your success. I know it's not for the faint of heart in the public sector of these days, a lot of blockers, a lot of politics, a lot of government lockers and the old procurement system technical debt. I mean, Windows 95 is probably still in a bunch of PCs and 50 45 fighters. 15 fighters. Oh, you've got a great job. You've been doing a great job and riding that wave. So congratulations. >>Well, I'll just say it's worth it. It is worth it. We are committed to public sector, and we really want to see everyone from our war fighters. Are citizens have the capabilities they need. So >>you know, you know that we're very passionate this year about going in the 2020 for the Cube and our audience to do a lot more tech for good programming. This'll is something that's near and dear to your heart as well. You have a chance to shape technology. >>Yes, well, today you saw we had a really amazing not for profit on stage with It's called Game Changer. And what we found with not for profits is that technology can be a game changer if they use it because it makes their mission dollars damage further. And they're an amazing father. And send a team that started game changer at. Taylor was in the hospital five years with terminal cancer, and he and his father, through these five years, kind of looked around. Look at all these Children what they need and they started. He is actually still here with us today, and now he's a young adult taking care of other young Children with cancer, using gaming technologies with their partner, twitch and eight MPs and helping analyze and understand what these young affected Children with cancer need, both that personally and academically and the tools he has He's helping really permit office and get back and it's really hard, Warren says. I was happy. My partner, Mike Level, who is my Gran's commercial sales in business, and I ran public Sector Day. We're honored to give them at a small token of our gift from A to B s to help support their efforts. >>Congratulates, We appreciate you coming on the Cube sharing the update on good luck into 2020. Great to see you 10 years at AWS day one. Still, >>it's day one. I feel like I started >>it like still, like 10 o'clock in the morning or like still a day it wasn't like >>I still wake up every day with the jump in my staff and excited about what I'm gonna do. And so I am. You know, I am really excited that we're doing and like Andy and I say we're just scratching the surface. >>You're a fighter. You are charging We love you, Great executive. You're the chief of public. Get a great job. Great, too. Follow you and ride the wave with Amazon and cover. You guys were documenting history. >>Yeah, exactly. We're in happy holidays to you all and help seeing our seventh and 20 >>so much. Okay, Cube coverage here live in Las Vegas. This is the cube coverage. Extracting the signals. Wanna shout out to eight of us? An intel for putting on the two sets without sponsorship, we wouldn't be able to support the mission of the Cube. I want to thank them. And thank you for watching with more after this short break.

>> Announcer: From London, England, it's theCUBE! Covering Coupa Insp!re'19 EMEA. Brought to you by Coupa. >> Hey, welcome to theCUBE. Lisa Martin on the ground in London at Coupa Insp!re'19. Can you hear all the buzz around me? You probably can hear it, it's electric. The keynote just ended, and I'm very pleased to welcome, fresh from the keynote stage, we have Rachel Botsman, author and trust expert from Oxford University. Rachel, welcome to theCUBE! >> Thank you for having me. >> Your talk this morning about the intersection of trust and technology, to say it's interesting is an understatement. You had some great examples where you showed some technology brands, that we all know, and have different relationships with: Uber, Facebook, and Amazon. And the way that you measured the audience is great, you know, clap the brand that you trust the most. And it was so interesting, because we expect these technology brands to, they should be preserving our information, but we've also seen recent history, some big examples, of that trust being broken. >> Rachel: Yeah, yeah. >> Talk to us about your perspectives. >> So what I thought was interesting, well kind of unexpected for me, was no one clapped for Facebook, not one person in the room. And this is really interesting to me, because the point that I was making is that trust is really, really contextual, right? So if I had said to people, do you trust on Facebook that you can find your friends from college, they probably would've clapped. But do I trust them with my data, no. And this distinction is so important, because if you lose trust in one area as a company or a brand, and it can take time, you lose that ability to interact with people. So our relationship and our trust relationship with brands is incredibly complicated. But I think, particular tech brands, what they're realizing is that, how badly things go wrong when they're in a trust crisis. >> Talk to me about trust as a currency. You gave some great examples this morning. Money is the currency for transactions, where trust is the currency of interactions. >> Yeah, well I was trying to frame things, not because they sound nice, but how do you create a lens where people can really understand, like what is the value of this thing, and what is the role that it plays? And I'm never going to say money's not important; money is very important. But people can understand money; people value money. And I think that's because it has a physical, you can touch it, and it has an agreed value, right? Trust I actually don't believe can be measured. Trust is, what is it? It's something there, there's a connection between people. So you know when you have trust because you can interact with people. You know when you have trust because you can place their faith in them, you can share things about yourself and also share things back. So it's kind of this idea that, think of it as a currency, think of it as something that you should really value that is incredibly fragile in any situation in any organization. >> How does a company like Coupa, or an Amazon or a Facebook, how do they leverage trust and turn it into a valuable asset? >> Yeah, I don't like the idea that you sort of unlock trust. I think companies that really get it right are companies that think day in and day out around behaviors and culture. If you get behaviors and culture right, like the way people behave, whether they have empathy, whether they have integrity, whether you feel like you can depend on them, trust naturally flows from that. But the other thing that often you find with brands is they think of trust as like this reservoir, right? So it's different from awareness and loyalty; it's not like this thing that, you can have this really full up battery which means then you can launch some crazy products and everyone will trust it. We've seen this with like, Mattel, the toy brand. They launched a smart system for children called Aristotle, and within six months they had to pull it because people didn't trust what it was recording and watching in people's bedrooms. We were talking about Facebook and the cryptocurrency Libra, their new smart assistants; I wouldn't trust that. Amazon have introduced smart locks; I don't know if you've seen these? >> Lisa: Yes. >> Where if you're not home, it's inconvenient for a very annoying package slip. So you put in an Amazon lock and the delivery person will walk into your home. I trust Amazon to deliver my parcels; I don't trust them to give access to my home. So what we do with the trust and how we tap into that, it really depends on the risk that we're asking people to take. >> That's a great point that you bring about Amazon, because you look at how they are infiltrating our lives in so many different ways. There's a lot of benefits to it, in terms of convenience. I trust Amazon, because I know when I order something it's going to arrive when they say it will. But when you said about trust being contextual and said do you trust that Amazon pays their taxes, I went wow, I hadn't thought of it in that way. Would I want to trust them to come into my home to drop off a package, no. >> Rachel: Yeah. >> But the, I don't know if I want to say infiltration, into our lives, it's happening whether we like it or not. >> Well I think Amazon is really interesting. First of all because so often as consumers, and I'm guilty, we let convenience trump trust. So we talk about trust, but, you know what, like, if I don't really trust that Uber driver but I really want to get somewhere, I'll get in the car, right? I don't really trust the ethics of Amazon as a company or like what they're doing in the world, but I like the convenience. I predict that Amazon is actually going to go through a major trust crisis. >> Lisa: Really? >> Yeah. The reason why is because their trust is largely, I talked about capability and character. Amazon's trust is really built around capability. The capability of their fulfillment centers, like how efficient they are. Character wobbles, right? Like, does Bezos have integrity? Do we really feel like they care about the bookshops they're eating up? Or they want us to spend money on the right things? And when you have a brand and the trust is purely built around capability and the character piece is missing, it's quite a precarious place to be. >> Lisa: I saw a tweet that you tweeted recently. >> Uh oh! (laughs) >> Lisa: On the difference between capability and character. >> Yes, yeah. >> Lisa: And it was fascinating because you mentioned some big examples, Boeing. >> Yes. >> The two big air disasters in the last year. Facebook, obviously, the security breach. WeWork, this overly aggressive business model. And you said these companies are placing the blame, I'm not sure if that's the right word-- >> No no, the blame, yeah. >> On product or service capabilities, and you say it really is character. Can you talk to our audience about the difference, and why character is so important. >> Yeah, it's so interesting. So you know, sometimes you post things. I actually post more on LinkedIn, and suddenly like, you hit a nerve, right? Because I don't know, it's something you're summarizing that many people are feeling. And so the point of that was like, if you look at Boeing, Theranos was another example, WeWork, hundreds of banks, when something goes wrong they say it was a flaw in the product, it was a flaw in the system, it's a capability problem. And I don't think that's the case. Because the root cause of capability problems come from character and culture. And so, capability is really about the competence and reliability of someone or a product or service. Character is how someone behaves. Character gets to their intentions and motives. Character gets to, did they know about it and not tell us. Even VW is another example. >> Lisa: Yes. >> So it's not the product that is the issue. And I think we as consumers and citizens and customers, where many companies get it wrong in a trust crisis is they talk about the product fix. We won't forgive them, or we won't start giving them our trust again until we really believe something's changed about their character. I'm not sure anything has changed with Facebook's culture and character, which is why they're struggling with every move that they take, even though their intentions might be good. That's not how people in the world are viewing them. >> Do you think, taking Boeing as an example, I fly a lot, I'm sure you do as well. >> Rachel: Yeah. >> When those accidents happened, I'm sure everybody, including myself, was checking, what plane is this? >> Rachel: Yeah. >> Because when you know, especially once data starts being revealed, that demonstrated pilots, test pilots, were clearly saying something isn't right here, why do you think a company like Boeing isn't coming out and addressing that head on from an integrity perspective? Do you think that could go a long way in helping their brand reputation? >> I never, I mean I do get it, I'm married to a lawyer so I understand, legal gets involved, governance gets involved, so it's like, let's not disclose that. They're so worried about the implications. But it's this belief they can keep things hidden. It's a continual pattern, right? And that they try to show empathy, but really it comes across as some weird kind of sympathy. They don't really show humility. And so, when the CEO sits there, I have to believe he feels the pain of the human consequence of what happened. But more importantly, I have to believe it will never happen again. And again, it's not necessarily, do I trust the products Boeing creates, it's do I trust the people? Do I trust the decisions that they're making? And so it's really interesting to watch companies, Samsung, right? You can recover from a product crisis, with the phones, and they kind of go away. But it's much harder to recover from what, Boeing is a perfect example, has become a cultural crisis. >> Right, right. Talk to us about the evolution of trust. You talked about these three waves. Tell our audience about that, and what the third wave is and why we're in it, benefits? And also things to be aware of. >> Yes! (laughs) I didn't really talk about this today, because it's all about inspiration. So just to give you a sense, the way I think about trust is three chapters of human history. So the first one is called local trust; all running around villages and communities. I knew you, I knew your sister, I knew whoever was in that village. And it was largely based on reputation. So, I borrowed money from someone I knew, I went to the baker. Now this type of trust, it was actually phenomenally effective, but we couldn't scale it. So when we wanted to trade globally, the Industrial Revolution, moving to cities, we invented what I call institutional trust. And that's everything from financial systems to insurance products, all these mechanisms that allow trust to flow on a different level. Now what's happening today, it's not those two things are going away and they're not important; they are. It's that what technology inherently does, particularly networks, marketplaces, and platforms, is it takes this trust that used to be very hierarchical and linear, we used to look up to the CEO, we used to look up to the expert, and it distributes it around networks and platforms. So you can see that at Coupa, right? And this is amazing because it can unlock value, it can create marketplaces. It can change the way we share, connect, collaborate. But I think what's happened is that, sort of the idealism around this and the empowerment is slightly tinged, in a healthy way, realizing a lot can go wrong. So distributed trust doesn't necessarily mean distributed responsibility. My biggest insight from observing many of these communities is that, we like the idea of empowerment, we like the idea of collaboration, and we like the idea of control, but when things go wrong, they need a center. Does that make sense? >> Lisa: Absolutely, yes. >> So, a lot of the mess that we're seeing in the world today is actually caused by distributed trust. So when I like, read a piece of information that isn't from a trusted source and I make a decision to vote for someone, just an example. And so we're trying to figure out, what is the role of the institution in this distributed world? And that's why I think things have got incredibly messy. >> It certainly has the potential for that, right? Looking at, one of the things that I also saw that you were talking about, I think it was one of your TED Talks, is reputation capital. And you said you believe that will be more powerful than credit history in the 21st century. How can people, like you and I, get, I want to say control, over our reputation, when we're doing so many transactions digitally-- >> Rachel: I know. >> And like I think you were saying in one of your talks, moving from one country to another and your credit history doesn't follow you. How can somebody really control their trust capital and creative positive power from it? >> They can't. >> They can't? Oh no! >> I don't want to disappoint you, but there's always something in a TED speech that you wish you could take out, like 10 years later, and be like, not that you got it wrong, but that there's a naivety, right? So it is working in some senses. So what is really hard is like, if I have a reputation on Airbnb, I have a reputation on Amazon, on either side of the marketplace, I feel like I own that, right? That's my value, and I should be able to aggregate that and use that to get a loan, or get a better insurance, because it's a predictor of how I behave in the future. So I don't believe credit scores are a good predictor of behavior. That is very hard to do, because the marketplaces, they believe they own the data, and they have no incentive to share the reputation. So believe me, like so many companies after, actually it was wonderful after that TED Talk, many tried to figure out how to aggregate reputation. Where I have seen it play out as an idea, and this is really very rewarding, is many entrepreneurs have taken the idea and gone to emerging markets, or situations where people have no credit history. So Tala is a really good example, which is a lending company. Insurance companies are starting to look at this. There's a company called Traity. Where they can't get a loan, they can't get a product, they can't even open a bank account because they have no traditional credit history. Everyone has a reputation somewhere, so they can tap into these networks and use that to have access to things that were previously inaccessible. So that's the application I'm more excited about versus having a trust score. >> A trust score that we would be able to then use for our own advantages, whether it's getting a job, getting a loan. >> Yeah, and then unfortunately what also happened was China, and God forbid that I in any way inspired this decision, decided they would have a national trust score. So they would take what you're buying online and what you were saying online, all these thousands of interactions, and that the government would create a trust score that would really impact your life: the schools that your children could go to, and there's a blacklist, and you know, if you jaywalk your face is projected and your score goes down. Like, this is like an episode of Black Mirror. >> It's terrifying. >> Yeah. >> There's a fine line there. Rachel, I wish we had more time, because we could keep going on and on and on. But I want to thank you-- >> A pleasure. >> For coming right from the keynote stage to our set; it was a pleasure to meet you. >> On that dark note. >> Yes! (laughing) For Rachel Botsman, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE from Coupa Insp!re London '19. Thanks for watching. (digital music)

>> live from Mountain View, California It's the queue covering definite create twenty nineteen Brought to you by Cisco >> Hey, welcome back to the cave, Lisa Martin with John Barrier. We're coming to you Live from the Computer System Museum at the third annual Cisco Definite Create twenty nineteen Excited to be joined by Joycelyn Developer Advocate from Postman Joyce Welcome to the Q Thank you. So you are a developer advocate. But postman is a tool that helps the community learn about Cisco ap eyes Postman is a Cisco was a customer of yours but a little bit about your experience at definite cry Because you have an interesting story from last year, which was your first year of this event >> Exactly last year. We just happen to stop by. And as I was walking through this very room you hear all these workshops going on behind us My ears perked up cause I heard somebody say python in postman or two of most powerful tools And I was like, Hey, I >> work a postman >> So I like, stopped in to see and I slapped my team back immediately at the office there, really using postman to teach Cisco Technology here. >> That was surprising to you. And here you are now here a year later. Tell us some of the things that you're expecting to learn and hear and feel and see from twenty nineteen. Create. >> So this year I hear about all these people learning postman learning about tech through postman. So I'm actually giving to talks this afternoon The first talks talking about building the community because a lot of people use postman in the second talk is about using mock servers. Had a fake an AP I until you actually coded and deploy it. >> Take a minute to explain. Postman. Why is it so popular? Why Francisco jazzed about it? What are they using it for? How they bring that in take a minute to talk about what you guys do >> Well, several years ago, when postman started as a side project was primarily for developers and help developers do their day to day jobs. But we found a lot more People are interacting with technology or working at tech companies where they might not have the setup to initiate a request. AP I request, and so postman allows them tio on their desktop be able. Teo interact with the tech in a way that normally they wouldn't have the whole set up to do it. >> So So in terms of developers, what's is a freemium model? They do have a free hand leads >> premium. And I think within the last year we've scooch almost anything that used to be a paid feature down to free so you can try it out. And in fact, if you have a small business or a side project, it's it's free. >> And what's the talk track? You're gonna have to get to talks. One on community, one on serve servers. Monster. >> Yeah, So Mock service is something that I thought might be interesting to this crowd. But a lot of these people have are in charge of managing the infrastructure or supporting existing AP eyes or services that are out in the cloud. And so mock servers are a way that you can essentially mock an FBI for parallel development or to build a prototype put into >> you. And so this helps develop, get faster app up and running. And then what happens when they have to get rid of mock server and put a real server on there? They had built out the re p I. Is that what happens? >> Typically, they're spinning Oppa marks over first, and then they're building out their own servers. So, yeah, they would swap out the mock with their own. >> And what's the other talk on community? Just how did do a community open sores? What's the aspects of the community talk? >> It's kind of on >> odd topic for this kind of crowd, but a lot of people work for companies that are or work for teams where they're just trying to build, like, a sense of community or foster some sort of mission. And so just telling the Postman story and Postman was free for absolutely free for a super long time in growth has just been astronomical. >> You're six million developers on the planet working on that, but I can't say on the company's one hundred thirty million plus AP eyes. And that's all. Just since the company was established in twenty fourteen after this sort of side project that you talked about so pretty, >> pretty quick >> growth trajectory that you guys are on >> and a lot of it was word of mouth. I mean, until I came here last year and heard all the system people talking about how they're using postman. We did not know that. >> So how have how has Postman actually evolved your technology in the last year? Just since you stumbled upon? Wow, this we're actually really hot here. We are really facilitator of developers. This community that's now what five hundred eighty five thousand members strong Learn about Cisco AP eyes. I'd love to know how that has sort of catalyzed growth for postman. Well, back in the >> day, Postman started as developer first. So here's an individual developer. How can they work more effectively? But teams like Cisco you'll be lucky if you find a team of ten people these air hundreds and thousands of developers coming together to work together. So postman as a tool has shifted from focusing on on ly the developer to how do you support developers working in larger teams? >> So what? The community angle? Because one of the things that Lise and I were just talking about you she does a lot of women in tech interviews with Cube and we're building out these communities ourselves and in Silicon Valley, the old expression fake it till you make it. It's kind of a startup buzzword, but people try to fake community or by community. You really can't get away with that. In communities, communities are very fickle. A successful open source projects you've gotta contribute. You've gotta have presence. You've got to show your work to get you to the bad actors. It's >> pretty >> efficient. But things air new now in communities this modern era coming into slag, you got tools. How is community evolving? That's your perspective on this. >> That's an interesting question. I think the community you never wanted fake community absolutely agree, and something that Postman is kind of lagged on is the community's been huge, but we haven't really been involved. So around the world we have people giving workshops that we don't even know about, like around the world. And how can we support them and allow them to tell, teach things consistently and teach best practices? So I wouldn't say unfortunately, well or fortunately, we're not in the position where we have to encourage the growth, but rather just support the people that are already doing this. This >> is the pure ingredient Teo Community development, because you're enabling other people to be relevant with their communities. So you're not so much like just trying to be a community player. You're just your product enables community growth. >> Absolutely. Yeah. >> You just gotta come feed >> postman as a tool. And then postman, the seeds >> of community. >> Yeah, we're healthy. >> So talk about some of the where you guys locate. How many people in your company? What's this? What numbers >> were headquartered in San Francisco. We have a huge engineering department in Bangalore where our founders air from. And I think just a few months ago, we started having distributed people. So now we're everywhere. I think we're about a hundred head count. Uh, fifty five percent of that is engineering. So where? I don't know where a >> start off. I mean, they were started hunting with number two hundred thousand companies using the technologies. We said over six million developers. How do you get a handle on to your point earlier supporting all of these groups that are out there enabling us Johnson enabling and fueling communities like Deb. Nanny? How do you start that with a one hundred person organization? >> Yeah. I'm so glad you're like, Wow, that doesn't seem like a huge organization because other people are like I thought you are way bigger than that. One thing is that we do listen to our community. And so if they're having a pain point way, try to aggregate all those voices and then come out with a cohesive road map because what might be the loudest voice for even a lot of voices might not be what's right for the tool. The other thing is, we're not open source company, but we have a ton of open source projects. So the community has again developed converters, integrations all these open source tools that for their specific workflow works for them. And actually, they're sharing with the community. >> How did you get into all this? How did you join the company? What attracted you and what's what story? >> Well, I'm in San Francisco, so I work for a tech company. I have a hodgepodge background, but I won't go into because it just sounds confusing. Some people call me the Wolverine at work. >> That's a nickname. >> Um, hopefully it's not because I'm so Harry, but because I've had many lives, so I I kind of bring a little bit of that, too. My developer advocate role, a little bit of product, A little bit of marketing, little bit of the business side. >> It's good versatility, lot of versatility. Yeah, let me ask a question. One of the things we've been covering is actually we love cloud nated. We've been covering cloud in the early days. Oh, wait. Oh, seven All the way through Love Cloud native We get that check enterprises Ha! You see Cisco using your stuff. Enterprise developers are hot right now. People are fast filling applications has got a cloud native flare to a definite create. It's also gotta integrate into the classic enterprise. What's the difference in your view and your experience, your observations between enterprise developers and then your classic You know, hard core cloud native developer >> I would say that's something that postman, as an organization is dealing with right now because we started developer first. Now we're finding Oh, it's a different person making these decisions. What tools should we use? Sometimes it's top down, but at the end of the day, it's always the developer that is going to support a top down decision. A developer that's going to find the utility out of certain tool. So we're shifting our focus. But not necessarily by that much. Because long as you focus developer first, it's still >> so enterprise. Kind of taking more of a classic cloud developer or native cloud native developer. You think that kind of profile you in your mind? >> Well, again, you have an enterprise developer. But what? Where's that enterprise developer going to be in two years? So we're not hanging our hat too much on Enterprise? Only now >> what do you want? The Ciscos measures of programming. The network. I mean, infrastructure is code. That's kind of a nice value proposition. Take the complexity away. What's your take on reaction toe that vision? >> I don't know what you're talking >> about. I don't know what part. >> What part of tell you are. >> Well, they're saying developers shouldn't have to configure hardware. You know, abstract the network capabilities out and make it code. So the developers just it just happens. >> Got it? Yeah, And if you think about how you Khun scale, can you scale linearly or exponentially? Enabling every developer or team to deploy their own code at their own pace with their own tools is something that allows you to scale exponentially. So things like mock servers that were talking about earlier. If I'm relying on somebody, that's my bottleneck. To spin this up with the normal workflow for the organization, that's a bottleneck. Spin up your own mock server. >> Find mock servers were great. Resource because remember the old days and mobile the emulators kind of had to have an emulator to kind of get going. Okay, that was, like five years, but similar model like, Hey, I don't need I can't build that out now. But I need to know what it's gonna look like so I can get this done. >> And that allows you to iterated at the fastest >> level at the local >> developer level. >> We've been covering the old days here in the Cube world. >> Throwback. Joyce, thanks so much for your time joining us on the cue program this morning. It a definite creed. Best of luck in your two sessions later on today. We look forward to seeing you next time. Great. Thank you. Nice to meet you for John Ferrier. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching to keep live from Cisco Definite create twenty nineteen. Thanks for watching

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America 2018, brought to you by Redhat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone, this is theCUBE's live coverage here in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman breaking down all the action, talking to all the top people, influencers, executives, start-ups, vendors, the foundation itself. We're here with two co-leads of Kubernetes at Google, legends in the Kubernetes industry. Tim Hockin and Brian Grant, both with Google, both co-leads at GKE. Thanks for joining us, legends in the industry. Kubernetes is still a short life, but still, being there from the beginning, you guys were instrumental at Google building out and contributing to this massive tsunami of 8000 people here. Who would have thought? >> It's amazing! >> It's a little overwhelming. >> It's almost like you guys are celebrity-status here inside this crowd. How's that feel? >> It's a little weird. I don't buy into the celebrity culture for technologists. I don't think it works well. >> We agree, but it's great to have you on. Let's get down to it. Kubernetes, certainly the rise of Kubernetes has grown. It's now pretty mainstream, people look at that as a key linchpin for the center of Cloud Native. And we see the growth of Cloud, you guys are living it with Google. What is the importance of Kubernetes? Why is it so important? Fundamentally at it's core, has a lot of impact, what's the fundamental reason why it's so successful? >> I think fundamentally Kubernetes provides a framework for driving migration towards Cloud Native patterns across your entire operational infrastructure. The basic design of Kubernetes is pretty simple and can be applied to automating pretty much anything. We're seeing that here, there are at least more than half a dozen talks about how people are using the Kubernetes to control plane to manage their applications or workflows or functions or things other than just core Kubernetes, containers, for example. Cloud Native is about... One of the things I'm involved with is I'm on the Technical Oversight Committee of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. I drove the update of the Cloud Native definition. If you're trying to operate with high velocity, deploying many times a day, if you're trying to operate at scale, especially with containers and functions, scale is increasing and compounding as people break their applications into more and more micro services. Kubernetes really provides the framework for managing that scale and for integrating other infrastructure that needs to accommodate that scale and that pace of change. >> I think Kubernetes speaks to the pain points that users are really having today. Everybody's a software company now, right? And they have to deploy their software, they have to build their software, they have to run their software, and these things, they build up pain. When it was just a little thing, you didn't have to worry about scale, internet-scale and web-scale, you could tolerate it within your organization. But more and more, you need to deploy faster, you need to automate things. You can't afford to have giant staffs of people who are running your applications. These things are all part of Kubernetes purvey. I think it just spoke to people in a way, they said I suffer from that every day and you just made it go away. >> And what's the core impact now? Because then now people are seeing it, what is the impact to the organizations that are rethinking their entire operation from all parts of the staff, from how they buy infrastructure, which is also Cloud, you see some Cloud there, and then that deploying applicant, what's the real impact? >> I think the most obvious, the most important part here is the way it changes how people operate and how they think about how they manage systems. It no longer becomes scary to update your application. It's just a thing you do. If you can do it with high confidence, you're going to do it more often, which means you get features and bugs fixed and you get your roll-outs done quicker. It's amazing, the result that it can have on the user experience. A user reports a bug in the morning, and you fix it in the afternoon, and you don't worry about that. >> You bring up some really interesting points. I think back 10 years ago, from a research standpoint, we were looking at how can the enterprise do some of the things that the hyperscale vendors were doing. I feel over the last 10 years, every time Google released one of the great scientific papers, we'd all get a peer inside and say like, oh hey. When I went to the first DockerCon and heard how Google was using containers, when Kubernetes first came out, it's like, oh wow, maybe the rest of us will get to do something that Google's been doing for the last 10 years. Maybe bring us back a little bit to Borg and how that led to Kubernetes. Are we still all the rest of us just doing whatever Google did 10 years ago? >> Yeah, Tim and I both worked on Borg previously, Tim on the node-agent side and I worked on the control-point side in Borg One lesson we really took from Borg is that really you can run all types of applications. People started with stateless applications and we started with that because it's simpler in Kubernetes. But really it's just a general management control plane for managing applications. With the model of one application per container, then you can manage the applications in a much more first-class way and unlock a lot of opportunities for automation in the management control plane. At Google, several years ago when we started, Google had already gone through the transition of moving most of its applications to Borg. It was after that phase that Google started its Cloud effort and the rest of the world was doing VMs. When Docker emerged, we were... In the early phases, Tim mentioned this in our keynote yesterday of open-sourcing our container runtime. When Docker emerged, it is clear it had a much better user experience for the way folks were managing applications outside of Google and we just pivoted to that immediately. >> When Docker first came out, we took a look at it, we, my node-agent team in Borg, and we went, yeah, it's kind of like poor man's version of Borglet. We sort of ignored it for awhile because we were already working on our open-source effort. We were open-sourcing it, not really to change the world and make everybody use it, but more so that we can have conversations with people like the Linux kernel community. When we said we need this feature, and they'd say well why, why do you need this, we could actually demonstrate for them why we needed it. When Docker landed, we saw the community building, and building, and building. That was a snowball of its own, right? As it caught on, we realized we know what this is going to. We know once you embrace the Docker mindset that you very quickly need something to manage all of your Docker nodes once you get beyond two or three of them. We know how to build that. We got a ton of experience here. We went to our leadership and said, please, this is going to happen with us or without us and I think the world would be better if we helped. >> I think that's an interesting point. You guys had to open-source to do collaboration with Linux to get that flywheel going for you guys out of necessity. Then when Docker validated the community acceptance of hey, we can just use containers, a lot of magic will happen, it hit the second trigger point. What happened after that? You guys just had a debate internally? Is this another MapReduce? What's happening? Like, we should get behind this. I knew there was a big argument or debate, I should say, within Google. At that time there were a lot of conversations, how do we handle this? >> That was around the time that Google Compute Engine, our infrastructures and service platform, was going GA and really starting to get usage. So then we had an opportunity to enable our customers to benefit from the kinds of techniques we had been using internally. So I don't think the debate was whether we should participate, it was more how. For example, should we have a fully managed product, should we have to do open-source, should we do managed open-source, so those were really the three alternatives that we were discussing. >> Well, congratulations, you guys done great work and certainly a huge impact to the industry. I think it's clear that the motivation to have some sort of standardization, de facto standard, whatever word can be used to kind of let people be enabled on top or below Kubernetes is great. I guess the next question is how do you guys envision this going forward as a core? If we're going to go to decomposition with low levels of granularity tying together through the network and cloud-scale and the new operating law, we'll have comments in this, how does the industry maintain the greatness of what Kubernetes is delivering and bring new things to market faster? What's your vision on this? >> I talked a little bit about this this week. We put a ton of work into extension points, extensibility of the system trying to stay very true to the original vision of Kubernetes. It is a box, and Kubernetes fits inside a box, and anything that's outside the box has to stay outside the box. This gives us the opportunity to build new ecosystems. You can see it in networking space, you can see it in storage space where whole sort of cottage industries are now springing up around doing networking for Kubernetes and doing storage for Kubernetes. And that's fantastic! You see projects like Istio, which I'm a big fan of, it's outside of Kubernetes. It works really well with Kubernetes, it's designed on top of Kubernetes infrastructure, but it's not Kubernetes. It's totally removable and you don't need it. There's systems like Knative which are taking the serverless idea and upleveling Kubernetes into serverless space. It's happening all over the place. We're trying to sort of pray fanatically, say, no, we're staying this big and no bigger. >> It's a really... From an engineering standpoint, it's much simpler if I just build a product and build everything into it. All those connection points, I go back to my engineering training. It's like every connection point is going to be another place where it could fail. Now it's got all these APIs, there's all the security issues, and things like that. But what I love what I heard right here is some of the learnings that we've had in open-source is these are all of these individual components that most of them can stand on their own. They don't even have to be with Kubernetes, but altogether you can build lots of different offerings. How do you balance that? How do you look at that from kind of a design and architecture standpoint? >> So one thing I've been looking at is how do we ensure compatibility of workloads across Kubernetes in all different environments and different configurations. How do we ensure that the tools and other systems building an ecosystem work with Kubernetes everywhere? So this is why we created the Conformance Program to certify that the critical APIs that everybody depends on behave the same way. As we try to improve the test coverage of the conformance, people are focusing on these areas of the system that are highly pluggable and extensible. So for example, the kubelet in the node has a pluggable container runtime, pluggable networks, pluggable storage systems now with CSI. So we're really focusing on ensuring we have good coverage of the Pod API, for example. And other parts of the system, people have swapped out an ecosystem, whether it's kube-proxy for our Kubernetes services or the scheduler. So we'll be working through those areas to make sure that they have really good coverage so users can deploy, say, a Helm Chart or their takes on a configuration or whatever, however they manage their applications and have that behave the same way on Kubernetes everywhere. >> I think you guys have done a great job of identifying this enabling concept. What is good enabling technology? Allowing others to do innovation around it. I think that's a nice positioning. What are the new problem areas that you guys see to work on next? Now I see things are developing in the ecosystem. You mentioned the Istio service mesh and people see value in that. Security is certainly a big conversation we've been having this week. What new problem areas or problem sets you guys see emerging that are needed to just tackle and just knock down right away? >> The most obvious, the thing that comes up sort of in every conversation of users now is multi-cluster, multi-cloud, hybrid, whether that's two clouds or on-prem plus cloud or even across different data centers on your premises. It's a hard topic. For a long time Kubernetes was able to sort of put a finger in our ears and pretend it didn't exist while we built out the Kubernetes model. Now we're at a place where we've crossed the adoption chasm. We're into the real adoption now. It's a real problem. It actually exists and we have to deal with it, and so we're now looking at how's it supposed to work. Philosophically, what do we think is supposed to happen here? Technologically, how do we make it happen? How do these pieces fit together? What primitives can we bring into Kubernetes to make these higher level systems possible? >> Would you consider 2019 to be the year of multi-cloud, in terms of the evolution of trying to tackle some of these things from latency? >> Yeah, I'm always reluctant to say the year of something because... >> Someone has to get killed, and someone dies, and someone's winning. >> It's the year of the last desktop. >> It's the year of something. (laughs) EDI, I'm just saying. >> I think multi-cluster is definitely the hot topic right now. It's certainly almost every customer that we talk to through Google and tons of community chatter about how to make this work. >> You've seen companies like NetApp and Cisco, for instance, and how they're been getting a tail-wind from the Kubernetes. It's been interesting. You need networks. They have a lot of networks. They can play a role in it. So it's interesting how it's designed to allow people to put their hands in there without kind of mucking up the main... >> Yeah, I think that really contributes to the success of Kubernetes, the more people that can help add value to Kubernetes, more people have a stake in the success of Kubernetes, both users and vendors, and developers, and contributors. We're all stakeholders in this endeavor now and we all share common goals, I think. >> Well guys, final question for you. I know we got to break on time. Thanks for coming. I really appreciate the time. Talk about an area of Kubernetes that most people should know about that might not know about. In other words, there was a lot of hype around Kubernetes, and it's warranted, it's a lot of buzz, what's an important area that's not talked about much that people should know more about it and pay attention to within the Kubernetes realms of that world? Is there any area that you think is not talked about enough that should be focused on in the conversations, the press, or just in general? >> Wow, that's a challenging question. I spent a lot of my time in the infrastructure side of Kubernetes, the lower end of the stack, so my brain immediately goes to networking and storage and all the lower level pieces there. I think there's a lot of policy knobs that Kubernetes has that not everybody's aware of, whether those are security policies or network policies. There's a whole family of these things and I think we're going to continue to acree more and more policy as more people come up with real-use cases for doing stuff. It's hard to keep that all in your mind, but it's really valuable stuff down there. >> For programmability, it's like a Holy Grail, really. Thoughts on the things that (chuckles) put you on the spot there? >> I think this question of how people should change what they were doing before if they're going to migrate to Kubernetes. To operate any workload, you need at least monitoring and you need really CI/CD if you want to operate with any amount of velocity. When you bring those practices to Kubernetes, should you just lift and shift those into Kubernetes or do you really need to change your mindset? I think Kubernetes really provides some capabilities that create opportunities for changing the way some things happen. I'm a big fan of GitOps, for example, in managing the resources to declaritively using version control as a source of truth and keeping that in sync with the state in your for live clusters. I think that enables a lot of interesting capabilities like instant disaster recovery, for example, migrations, new locations. There are some key folks here who are talking about that, giving that message, but we're really at the early stages there. >> All right, well great to have you guys on. Thanks for the insight. We've got to wrap up. Thanks Brian, thanks Tim, appreciate it. Live coverage here, theCUBE is at KubeCon, Cloud Native, Cloud 2018. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, we'll be back after this short break.

from the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas it's the cube recovering no joke on 2018 brought to you by Osho okay welcome back everyone we're here live here at hosts show con in Las Vegas the first security conference for blockchain its inaugural event and we're here with Gabriel Shepherd VP of strategy at Global Strike for host show they're the hosts of the event although it's an industry conference for the entire community all coming together Gabriel thanks for coming on and spend the time yeah thanks for having me thanks for you know supporting the event and we appreciate your team coming out and covering what we're trying to build here well we think it's super important now so you guys are doing a great service for the industry and stepping up and put in the event together and so props to you guys thank you this is not a hosts show sales like conference you guys aren't selling anything you're doing the service for the community so props to you guys in the team great stuff and we know this is a kernel of all the smartest people and its really an industry event so it shows in the session so appreciate that yes we think it's important because you know we see a lot of trends the queue has a unique advantage in how we cover hundreds of events and yeah so we get to go we see a horizontal observation space from the industry and when you have formation like this with the community this is important you guys have up leveled the conversation focused the conversation around blockchain where security is the top-level conversation that's it no I feel pitches right so for the folks watch and this is really one of those events where it's not a huge number of people here like the thousands and thousands of other blockchain shows that make money off events this is about community and around getting the conversations and having substantive conversations so great job so for the folks watching the content agenda is super awesome host show con-com you go browse it but give us some color commentary on some of the types of speakers here the diversity yeah I think I think the first thing that we wanted to accomplish was with Hojo Khan was we we wanted to put front and center the conversations that were not taking place at other events there are plenty of platforms and opportunities for companies early-stage companies to go pitch there are other great conference organizers that do events and have their own wheelhouse but what we wanted to do was put together a conference that was focused around a type of conference that we ourselves would want to attend as a cybersecurity firm and you know after traveling the world I mean you know you you and artesia spoke many times and hosho has sponsored quite a few events around the world after attending by the end of 2018 will attended something like a hundred plus events in some capacity and so it was clear to us early on that companies weren't our conferences weren't going to focus on security or at least put them on the main stage where I believed that they should be at least with all the hacks happening so what we wanted to do was bring together thought leadership with respect to security technical leadership with respect to developers and security engineers and we wanted to bridge those two what I mean by that is we wanted thought leadership that could get executives to start the non-technical people so start thinking about security in the larger format and how it's applicable to their company but what we also wanted to do is we wanted to connect these non-technical people with the technical people in an intimate setting where they could learn think about the brain power that we have in this hotel for hosho Khan you've got the minds of Andre Assante innopolis Diego's LDR of RSK Michael berkland of shape-shift josub Kuan of hosho we've got Ron stone from c4 you've got an on Prakash a world-class white hat bug bounty hunter consider what he's top-5 bug bounty hunter for our top top bug bounty hunter for Facebook five years in a row the the level of the calibre of technical talent in this building has the potential to solve problems that Enterprise has been trying to solve individually for years but those conversations don't take place in earnest with the non-technical people and so the idea behind hoshikawa was to bridge those to provide education that's what we're doing things like workshops sure we have keynotes and panels but we also have the ability to teach non-technical people how to enable two-factor authentication how to set up PGP for your email how to set up your hardware wallet these things aren't these conversations are not the bridge is a clearly established we interview people from on the compliance side all the way down to custodial services which again the diversity is not a group think events just giving them more props here because I think you guys did a great job worthy of promotion because you not only bridge the communities together you're bringing people in cross functionally colonizing and the asset test for me is simple the groupthink event is when everyone's kind of rah rah each other I know this conditions we got Andre is saying hey if you put database substitute database for blockchain and it reads well it's not a real revolutionary thing and oh all you custodian services you're screwed I mean so you have perspectives on both side that's right and there's contentious conversation that's right and that to me proves it and as well as the sessions are highly attended or we don't want it we don't want a panel of everybody in agreeance because we know that's not reality i mean that you you bring up the issue of curse of custody a prime example is we had a great talk a four-person panel led by Joe Kelly who's the CEO of Unchained Capital he had a panel with traditional equities custodian Paul pooi from edge wallet Joseph Kwon is the CEO of hosho and there was clear differences of opinion with respect to custody and it got a little contentious but isn't that the point yeah it's to have these conversations in earnest and let's put them out in the public on what's right and what's wrong for the community and let the community to decide the best way forward that's the best is exactly what you want to do I gotta ask you what are the big surprises for you what have you learned what's the big reveal for you that you've super surprised you or are things you expected what were some of the things that went on here yeah I think the biggest surprise to me was the positive feedback that we received you know I understand that we know people maybe looked at how shock on year one and said hosho like they're a cybersecurity firm what are they doing running a conference right but my background is a you know I've produced conferences I have a former employee of South by Southwest I believe a big an experience and so when we started to put this together we thought we knew we would make mistakes and we certainly made mistakes with respect to programming and schedule and just things that we had didn't think about attention to detail but we had plans far in that the mistakes were mitigated that they weren't exposed to the public right there behind the scenes fires that kind like a wedding or a party but no one actually really notices sure we put them out behind the scenes nobody that the our guests don't notice and that was my biggest concern I'm pleasantly surprised at the positive feedback we've yet to get any negative feedback publicly on Twitter telegram anecdotally individually people now they made just being nice to my face but I feel good about what the response that we've got it's been good vibes here so I gotta ask you well sure the DJ's were great last night good experience yeah experience and knowledge and and networking has been a theme to correct I lost him the networking dynamics I saw a lot of people I had I had ran to some people I met for the first time we've had great outreach that with the queue was integrated in people very friendly talked about the networking and that's been going on here yeah I mean this panels are great I'd love to hear from from panels and solo presentations but a lot of work gets done in the hallways and we have a saying in the conference business hallway hustlers right the ones that are hustling in the hallways are those early stage entrepreneurs or trying to close deals trying to figure out how to get in front of the right person serendipitously are at the bar at the same time as somebody they want to meet that is to me conference 101 that is the stuff I grew up on and so we wanted to make sure that we were encouraging those interactions through traffic flow so you'll notice that they're strategically the content rooms are strategically placed so that when you're changing rooms people are forced to cross interact with each other because they're forced to bump into each other and if you look at the programming we purposefully to our demise to be honest year one put a lot of programming that was conflicted with each other we made people make a decision about what talk they wanted to go to because there were two really compelling people at the same time or 10 minutes off yeah and so you had to make a decision vote with your feet you got to vote with your feet and and and from a conference perspective we call that FOMO right we want our guests to FOMO not because we want them to miss a particular talk but because we want them to be so overwhelmed with content and opportunity with networking that they when they walk away they've had a good experience they're fulfilled but they they think I got to go back here too because that thing I missed I'm not gonna miss this yeah we will point out to you guys made a good call on film all the session everything so everything's gonna be online we'll help guys do that yep so the video is gonna be available for everyone to look on demand you also had some good broadcast here we had a couple shows the cubes been here your mobile mention the DJs yeah yeah so good stuff so okay hallway conversations our lobby con as we call it when people hang up a lot on it's always good hallway con so what Gabriel in your mind as you walked around what was some of the hallway culture that you overheard and and that you thought were interesting and what hall would cartridges were you personally involved in the personal conversations I was involved with is why isn't somebody not this station why someone not Gardens but I will tell you i from what I heard from from conference attendees the conversations that I heard taking place were and I hope Jonathan doesn't mind but Jonathan Nelson from hack fund spoke on our main stage and I hope he doesn't mind me speaking out of turn but he came to me said this is one of the best run blockchain conferences I've ever been to and to have somebody like Jonathan say that who has done hundreds of talks and thousands was really meaningful but but what was more important is to talk to him and him feel comfortable enough to sit down with me and just talk generally that's the vibe we want for every attendant we want you to feel comfortable meeting with people in the hallway who you've never met and be vulnerable from a security perspective you know Michael Turpin for example sitting down and talking proactively about being the AT&T hack great these are opportunities for people to really talk about what's happened and be vulnerable and have the opportunity to educate us all how to get better as an industry you know the other thing I want to get your thoughts on is obviously the program's been phenomenal in the content side thank you but community is really important to us we're of a community model to q you guys care about the community aspect of this and as a real event you want to have an ongoing year after year and hopefully it'll get bigger I think it will basically our results we're seeing talk about the community impact because what you're really talking about there is community that's right well I mean Vegas we talk about there's multiple communities right regionally post-show is a Vegas based company we're born here we close I think forty some employees all based here in Las Vegas which is our home so the first thing that we did with respect to community as we created a local local price if you're a Nevada resident we didn't want you to have to invest a significant amount of money to come to something in your own town the second thing we did is we've invited the local Vegas Bitcoin meet up in aetherium meet ups to come and partake and not only participate but contribute to the content and opening day in fact there was so much influx of people from those meetups it wasn't official it wasn't like a program where we had actually a VTEC set up I thought I was gonna be like a meet-up there were so many people that attended we had to on the fly provide AV because we were overwhelmed with the amount of people that showed up so that's a regional community but with respect to the community from blockchain community what we wanted to do is make sure we brought people of all ethnicities all countries we have 26 countries represented in the first blockchain security conference and you had some big-name celebrities here yeah Neil Kittleson Max Keiser you go mama Anan Prakash Yakov Prensky a layer from your side pop popcorn kochenko has some big names yeah I'll see andreas yes here keynoting yeah I'm Michel parkland andreas Diego Zaldivar I mean these lena katina Viren OVA I mean these are big names yeah these big names okay what so so what's your takeaway of you as you know my takeaway is that there's a there's a yearning for this type of event my takeaway is that we're doing something right we have the luxury as hosho and that we're not an events company people think that might be a disadvantage to run a confident you're not a cotton vent company I think it's an advantage yeah because it holds my feet to the fire yeah much closer than an event organiser who doesn't have a company reputation and brand to protect hosho as you know has a good brand in the cybersecurity world with respect to blockchain we don't have the luxury of throwing a poor event giving you a bad experience because that would tarnish house of but also your in the community so you're gonna have direct feedback that's right the other thing too I will say I'm gonna go to a lot of events and there are people who are in the business of doing events and they have a profit motive that's right so they'll know lanyards are all monetize everything is monetized yeah and that sometimes takes away from the community aspect correct and I think you guys did a good job of you know not being profligate on the events you want to yeah a little bit of cash but you didn't / yeah / focus on money-making finding people right for the cash you really needed about the content yeah and the experience for and with the community and I think that's a formula that people want yeah I would like to see the model I would like to see the model changed over time if I'm being honest a majority of crypto conferences today are paid to play so a lot of the content you're getting this sponsored so I'm okay with that but I think it should be delineated between con disclose your disclosure you don't want water down the country but but the conference circuit and crypto is not ready for that it hasn't rest in my opinion hasn't reached that level of maturation yet like I told you I I'm a former South by Southwest guy that like my belief is you create the content and the sponsors will come I don't I don't begrudge conference organizers for for for sponsoring out events because they're really really expensive a cost per attend to manage demand to this hype out there yeah hundreds of dollars per attendee I get it I understand why they do it but what I would like to see is the model change over time whereas as we get more sophisticated as a technology space we should also grow as a vent and conference circuit as well what I mean by that is let's change the model that eventually someday it's free for all attendees to come and those conferences and the costs associated with them are subsidized by companies that want access to the people that are tending them it sounds like an upstream open source project sure how open source became so popular you don't screw with the upstream yep but you have downstream opportunities so if you create a nice upstream model yep that's the cube philosophy as well we totally agree with you and I think you guys are onto something pioneering with the event I think you're motivated to do it the community needs it yeah I think that's ultimately the self governing aspect of it I think you're off to something really good co-creation yeah I'll see we believe in that and the results speak for themselves congratulations thank you so much I appreciate you guys coming here and investing your time and I hope that all our staff has been accommodated and the hard rock is treated you well you guys been great very friendly but I think again you know outside of you guys is a great company and great brand and you guys and speaks for itself and the results this is an important event I agreed because of the timing because of this focus its crypto its crypto revolution its cybersecurity and FinTech all kind of coming together through huge global demand I mean we haven't gotten into IOT and supply chain yeah all the hacks going on with China and these things being reported this is serious business is a lot on the line a lot and you guys having a clear focus on that is really a service business Thank You staff doing it alright our cube coverage here in Las Vegas for host Joe Kahn this is the first conference of its kind where security is front and center it is the conference for security and blockchain bringing the worlds together building the bridges and building the community bridges as well we love that that's our belief as well as the cube coverage here in Vegas tigress more after this short break

>> Hey welcome back to everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto studio for a CUBE conversation. The crazy conference schedule is just about ready to break over our heads, but we still have a little time to do CUBE conversations before we hit the road. But one show we're doing this summer that we've never done before is Kubecon Cloud Native Con, I got to get all the words. It used to be Cloud Native, now Kubecon's up front. But we're going to go to the European show first time ever. It's May 2nd through 4th at the Bella Center in Copenhagen, Denmark. We're really excited to go 'cause obviously a ton of activity around containers and Kubecon and Kubernetes, and we're excited to have a little preview of the show with two folks. We've got Wendy Cartee, she is the Senior Director Cloud Native Applications Marketing for VMWare. Welcome. >> Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here. >> And also giving us a little preview on her keynote, maybe we can get something out of her, I don't know, Aparna Sinha, she is a Group Product Manager for Kubernetes and Google's Kubernete Engine at Google, long title. Just see the Kubernete shirt, that's all we need to see. Welcome. >> Thank you. Glad to be here. >> Absolutely. So for the folks that have not been to Kubecon before, let's go through some of the basics. How big is it? Who can they expect to be there? Do you have the fancy letter for them to give to their boss to get out of work for a week? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Give us the basics. >> This is going to be our biggest event in Europe yet. So we're expecting actually four thousand plus people. We expect that it'll be sold out. So, folks should register early. And who should go? Actually tends to be a mix of developers who want to contribute to the project as well as users. I think in Austin, which was our last conference, there was about a 50/50 mix of folks that were using Kubernetes. So it's a really great place to meet others that are using the software. >> Are there a couple of new themes this year? Or is just just kind of generic training and moving the platform along? Or are there some big announcements that people can expect? >> Yeah, I expect some big announcements. And I expect that there'll be a couple of themes around security, around Serverless, that's a major area, and around developer experience, and of course machine learning. So those are some of the things that are top of mind for the community. >> And probably Service Mesh will be another round of hot topics this year as well. >> Which one? >> Service Mesh. >> Jeff: What is that? >> It's a project that is a part of CNCF around Envoy. And it's essentially the notion of having a stack of services that provide everything from connectivity to API access for microservices. >> I ask because we had an old customer of Service Mesh saying they got bought by some services company... >> Yeah, this is, I think the term is an old term, so obviously when you start using Kubernetes it's really around breaking down your applications and having microservices. You get a proliferation of microservices. Service Mesh essentially enables you to manage those, so set up security and communication between those services and then manage them at scale, so that's really what a Service Mesh is. And Envoy is at the heart of that. And then there's a project called Istio. There will definitely be, and there was a lot of discussion around that at Kubecon in Austin. And they'll be some training before the conference this time. There are several co-located events. There'll be some training beforehand. So for folks that want to learn, they're new to Kubernetes, they're new to the concept of Service Mesh, I would recommend coming a day early or two days early, 30th and 1st, there's a number of different workshops. >> It's pretty amazing just the growth and the momentum of containers and Serverless, and obviously Docker kind of came out of nowhere a couple three or four years ago. And then Kubernetes really kind of seemed to jump on the scene in terms of at least me paying attention, probably a couple two, three years ago. And it's phenomenal. And even only just to check it out, Google's putting on all these little development workshops. This one was at Santa Clara Convention Center probably a month ago that I went down. And the place was packed, packed. And it was, get out your laptop, get out your notes, and let's start going through and developing applications and really learning. I mean, why does this momentum continue to grow so strongly? >> From what we see, we have enterprises that are in the journey of digital, you're kind of going on the digital transformation. >> Jeff: Right. >> And to drive that faster business model they need technologies like Cloud Native to help them with faster development, to help them with driving new innovations in their application, and I think that that's what we see in the Kubernetes community. I think we see developers and contributors coming to conferences like Kubecon, especially to really learn from each other and find out what are some of the latest innovations in this space and how they can bring that back into their companies to drive faster development, and at the end of it, essentially driving better services, better experience for their end users as well. >> And it's really been interesting watching the VMWare story particularly, because you know people were a little confused when the merger happened with Dell and EMC and how was that going to affect (mumbles) and VMWare, and yet, the ecosystem is super vibrant. We do VMworld every single year. It's one of our biggest shows. The thing is packed with a really excited ecosystem, obviously you guys made big moves with Amazon last year. You're making moves with Google and Kubernetes, and it was funny. People were concerned a couple years. It's almost this rebirth of what's going on at VMworld and this adoption of really (mumbles) technology as well as open source technologies. Has the culture changed inside? Is this something that you guys figured you have to do or was it always there under the covers and maybe we just weren't paying enough attention? >> Yeah, I think it was always there. I think we are very close to the transformation and the journey that our customers are on. And obviously the customers themselves have a full stack solution deployed in their environment today. Many of them are using vSphere or vSan or NSX, vRealize Portfolio to build their business, and they're looking at how to transform and add containers as another layer on top of their software defined data center, to essentially breathe some of these newer technologies into their environment as well. >> Yeah, and Aparna, Google's been sharing open source stuff for a while. Even back to early Hadoop, Hadoop days. So, as big and powerful as a company that it is and as much as scale is such an important piece of that competitive advantage, it's wild that you guys are opening things up and really embracing an open source developer kind of ethos to acknowledge. As smart as you are, as big as you are, as much power as you have, you don't have all the smartest people inside the four walls of Google. Well, Google has always contributed to open source. I think we have a very long and rich history of sharing software and, you know, really doing joint development. So Android is an open source, Chrome, Chromium is open source. TensorFlow is open source. And Kubernetes really is, I think, different in that sense in that there is a thriving community around it and Google's been very, very active, and I've been very active personally, in developing that community and engaging in the project. And I think that goes back to what you were saying about the meetups. There are several meetups all around, so it's not just in one location. I think globally. And I think the reason it's so diverse and so many people are involved is because it does lead to, you know, Kubernetes enables a benefit that is meaningful in enterprises, large and small, where you can start rolling out applications multiple times a day. And it just gives developers that productivity. It's very accessible. And over the years, especially as the project has matured, it has become, it's like my daughter or my son can go and they can use it. It's really easy to use. So it's not hard to pick up either. >> And it's also interesting because we do a lot of shows, as you know, theCUBE goes to a ton of shows, and everybody wants the attention of developer if they haven't had (mumbles) everybody's got a developer track a developer this, a developer that. Everybody wants to get to developers. It's very competitive. As a developer you have a lot of options of where you want to spend your time. But really, especially Google, kind of comes at it from, and always has, development first. Right? It's kind of developer first. So I'm curious, you talked about the community that's going to be gathered in Denmark when you've got contributors as well as users and contributors all kind of blended together. Not really forced together, but coming together around this universal gravity that is Kubernetes. What is that enable that you don't get if you're traditionally either a developer show or kind of a user show? >> Yes, I think that's really important and one of the beautiful things about open source, is that you get what you see. And you can actually change it and own it and it's not some other entity that owns it. So we'll have many companies presenting, so Bookings.com, Spotify, New York Times, Ebay, Lyft. These are all companies that are using Kubernetes and also contributing to Kubernetes. And so it's a nice virtual cycle. And what you get from that is you're in touch, you're in constant touch with your users. So a lot of them actually use Google Kubernetes Engine, and I know what they're looking for. And so we can then shape the project and shape the product accordingly. >> Then the other question I always think is interesting when you're working with open source projects and contributors, right? A lot of times it's a big part of whom they are, especially if they're a good contributor. You know, it's part of their identity, it's part of the way they connect with their community, but they got to get work done for the company, too. So in terms of kind of managing in the development world with contributing people, people contributing to open source projects as well as you got to get our work done that we're working on, too. How do you manage that? How is kind of best practices for having a vibrant open source contributing staff that's also being very productive in getting their day job done? >> I think engineers love to learn from other engineers and developers, and I think that community is the reason why they come. And it's not only our conferences when everybody gets together at a conference like Kubecon, but there's a tremendous amount of activity day to day offline over conference calls like Zoom and, you know I'm on some of the calls that Aparna is on and its amazing. You have people from all over the world, developers from everywhere, who will meet on a weekly basis, and they'll Slack each other. And I think that that sense of community, that sharing of information and really learning some of the best practices and learning what others have done is why people come, and it's great to have a conference like Kubecon where people can finally come together and meet in person and just kind of enjoy each other's presence and communicate face to face, and really connect in person. We're very excited about Kubecon and kind of being part of that energy, that enthusiasm that is in the community. >> It's interesting, the Slack, the kind of cross-enterprise Slack phenomenon, which I hadn't really been exposed to until a couple of projects we got involved with, and I got invited into these other companies' Slack, which I didn't really know that that was a thing to open up that wall in between the two companies and enable a very similar type of interaction and engagement that I have with my peers inside the walls as I do now with my peers outside the walls. So that's a pretty interesting twist in enabling these tools to build community outside of your own company. >> Yes, it is, and Slack is a great tool for that. But even aside from the tooling, I think that the pace of software innovation is very, very fast these days. And if you stay within the walls of your company you miss out on so much innovation that is available, and I totally agree with Wendy. Contributors and developers in general, they like to know what's next. And they like to contribute to what's next. And you said you went to some of the meetups, so you can sort of see that you're actually benefiting from that, from both contributing as well as from meeting with and absorbing what others are doing. You're directly benefiting your company, you're directly benefiting in your own job because you're innovating. >> So before we let you go, any particular session or something is happening at the show in Denmark that either you're super excited about or maybe is a little bit kind of flying underneath the radar that people should be aware of that maybe they didn't think to go to that type of session. >> Well I think there are a variety of excellent sessions at the Kubecon that's coming up. There are user topics. Arpana talked about some of the companies that will be there to share their experience. I've seen talks about communities and contributors and how they can contribute and build the community. I think there are SIG updates that I think would be very informative. And I also think that there are a lot of announcements that will be made at the event as well. I think that's exciting for everybody to see the new innovations that's coming out that impact the community, the users, and in general the ecosystem as well. >> Aparna? >> Yeah, yeah, so if I were to lay it out, I mean definitely folks should register early 'cause it's going to sell out. There were a thousand plus submissions and a 125 talks have been accepted. There are 31 Google talks. There's all manner of content. I would suggest users go a little bit early if they want to get the hands-on training in the workshops. And then as Wendy mentioned, I think on May 2nd there's a contributor summit, which is actually, that's the thing that's flying under the radar. It's a free event, and if you want to learn how to contribute to Kubernetes, that's where a lot of the training will be. And the SIGs, the special interest groups, in the community, each of them will be giving an introduction to what they do. So it's a really good event to meet maintainers, meet contributors, become one yourself. And then in terms of the agenda, I think I mentioned the topics. I'm giving a keynote. I think I'm giving the opening keynote there. It'll be about developer experience, because that's a big deal that we're working on in Kubernetes, and I think there's many new innovations in improving the developer experience with Kubernetes. I'll also be giving an overall project update. And then some of the other keynotes, there's a keynote on KubeFlow, which is a machine learning framework on top of Kubernetes. And then there's a series of talks on security and how to run securely in containers. >> All right, well I think we're almost ready. We got to register, we got to study up, and make a couple contributions before we're headin' over there, right? >> Absolutely. >> All right, Wendy, Aparna, thanks for taking a few minutes and look forward to seeing you across the pond in a month or so. It's May 2nd through 4th in Denmark at the Bella Center, Copenhagen, Denmark. Thanks again for stopping by. >> Wendy: Thank you. >> Aparna: Thank you. >> All right, I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching theCUBE from Palo Alto, we'll see you next time. Thanks for watchin'.