>> Narrator: From Berlin, Germany, it's The Cube. Covering DataWorks Summit Europe 2018. Brought to you by Hortonworks. >> Well, hello. Welcome to The Cube. I'm James Kobielus. I'm the Lead Analyst for Big Data Analytics in the Wikibon team of SiliconANGLE Media. We are here at DataWorks Summit 2018 in Berlin. Of course, it's hosted by a Hortonworks. We are in day one of two days of interviews with executives, with developers, with customers. And this morning the opening keynote, one of the speaker's was a customer of Hortonworks from Munich Re, the reinsurance company based of course in Munich, Germany. Andreas Kohlmaier, who's the the head of Data Engineering I believe, it was an excellent discussion you've built out of data lake. And the first thing I'd like to ask you Andreas is right now it's five weeks until GDPR, the general data protection regulation, goes into full force on May 25th. And of course it applies to the EU, to anybody who does business in the EU including companies based elsewhere, such as in the US, needs to start complying with GDPR in terms of protecting personal data. Give us a sense for how Munich Re is approaching the deadline, your level of readiness to comply with GDPR, and how your investment in your data lake serves as a foundation for that compliance. >> Absolutely. So thanks for the question. GDPR, of course, is the hot topic across all European organizations. And we actually pretty well prepared. We compiled all the processes and the necessary regulations and in fact we are now selling this also as a service product to our customers. This has been an interesting side effect because we have lots of other insurance companies and we started to think about why not offer this as a service to other insurance companies to help them prepare for GDPR. This is actually proving to be one of the exciting interesting things that can happen about GDPR. >> Maybe that would be your new line of business. You make more money doing that then. >> I'm not sure! (crosstalk) >> Well that's excellent! So you've learned a lot of lessons. So already so you're ready for May 25th? You have, okay, that's great. You're probably far ahead of I know a lot of U.S. based firms. We're, you know in our country and in other countries, we're still getting our heads around all the steps that are needed so you know many companies outside the EU may call on you guys for some consulting support. That's great! So give us a sense for your data lake. You discussed it this morning but can you give us a sense for the business justification for building it out? How you've rolled it out? What stage it's in? Who's using it for what? >> So absolutely. So one of the key things for us at Munich Re is the issue about complexity or data diversity as it was also called this morning. So we have so many different areas where we are doing business in and we have lots of experts in the different areas. And those people and I really have they are very knowledgeable in the area and now they also get access to new sources of information. So to give you a sense we have people for example that are really familiar with weather and climate change, also with satellites. We have captains for ships and pilots for aircraft. So we have lots of expertise in all the different areas. Why? Because we are taking those risks in our books. >> Those are big risks too. You're a reinsurance company so yeah. >> And these are actually complex risks where we really have people that really are experts on their field. So we have sometimes have people that have 20 years plus of experience in the area and then they change to the insurer to actually bring their expertise on the field also to the risk management side. And all those people, they now get an additional source of input which is the data that is now more or less readily available everywhere. So first of all, we are getting new data with the submissions and the risks that we are taking and there are also interesting open data sources to connect to so that those experts can actually bring their knowledge and their analytics to a new level by adding the layer of data and analytics to their existing knowledge. And this allows us, first of all, to understand the risks even better, to put a better price tag on that, and also to take up new risks that have not been possible to cover before. So one of the things is also in the media I think is that we are also now covering the Hyperloop once it's going to be built. So those kind of new things are only possible with data analytics. >> So you're a Hortonworks customer. Give us a sense for how you're using or deploying Hortonworks data platform or data plane service and whatnot inside of your data lake. It sounds like it's a big data catalog, is that a correct characterization? >> So one of the things that is key to us is actually finding the right information and connecting those different experts to each other. So this is why the data catalog plays a central role. Here we have selected Alation as a catalog tool to connect the different experts in the group. The data lake at the moment is an on-prem installation. We are thinking about moving parts of that workload to the cloud to actually save operation costs. >> On top of HTP. >> Yeah so Alation is actually as far as I know technically it's a separate server that indexes the hive tables on HTP. >> So essentially the catalog itself is provides visualization and correlation across disparate data sources that are managing your hadoop. >> Yeah, so the the catalog actually is a great way of connecting the experts together. So that's you know okay if we have people on one part of the group that are very knowledgeable about weather and they have great data about weather then we'd like to connect them for example to the guys that doing crop insurance for India so that they can use the weather data to improve the models for example for crop insurance in Asia. And there the data catalog helps us to connect those experts because you can first of all find the data sources and you can also see who is the expert on the data. You can then also call them up or ask them a question in the tool. So it's essentially a great way to share knowledge and to connect the different experts of the group. >> Okay, so it's also surfacing up human expertise. Okay, is it also serving as a way to find training datasets possibly to use to build machine learning models to do more complex analyses? Is that something that you're doing now or plan to do in the future? >> Yes, so we are doing some of course machine learning also deep learning projects. We are also just started a Center of Excellence for artificial intelligence to see okay how we can use deep learning and machine learning also to find different ways of pricing insurance lists for example and this of course for all those cases data is key and we really need people to get access to the right data. >> I have to ask you. One of the things I'm seeing, you mentioned Center of Excellence for AI. I'm seeing more companies consider, maybe not do it, consider establishing a office of the chief AI officer like reporting to the CEO. I'm not sure that that's a great idea for a lot of businesses but since an insurance company lives and dies by data and calculations and so forth, is that something that Munich Re is doing or considering in a C-Suite level officer of that sort responsible for this AI competency or no? >> Could be in the future. >> Okay. >> We sort of just started with the AI Center of Excellence. That is now reporting to our Chief Data Officer so it's not yet a C-Suite. >> Is the Center of Excellence for AI, is it simply like a training institute to provide some basic skill building or is there something more there? Do you do development? >> Actually they are trying out and developing ways on how we can use AI on deep learning for insurance. One of the core things of course is also about understanding natural language to structure the information that we are getting in PDFs and in documents but really also while using deep learning as a new way to build tariffs for the insurance industry. So that's one of the the core things to find and create new tariffs. And we also experimenting, haven't found the product yet there, whether or not we can use deep learning to create better tariffs. That could also then be one of the services, again we are providing to our customers, the insurance companies and they build that into their products. Something like yeah the algorithms is powered by Munich Re. >> Now your users of your data lake, these are expert quantitative analysts, right, for the most part? So you mentioned using natural language understanding AI capabilities. Is that something that you have a need to do in high volume as a reinsurance company? Take lots of source documents and be able to as it were identify the content and high volume and important you know not OCR but rather the actual build a graph of semantic graph of what's going on inside the document? >> I'm going to give you an example of the things that we are doing with natural language processing. And this one is about the energy business in the US. So we are actually taking up or seeing most of the risks that are related to oil and gas in the U.S. So all the refineries, all the larger stations, and the the petroleum tanks. They are all in our books and for each and every one of them we get a nice report on risks there with a couple of hundred of pages. And inside these reports there's also some paragraph written in where actually the refinery or the plants gets its supplies from and where it ships its products to. And thence we are seeing all those documents. That's in the scale of a couple of thousands so it's not really huge but all together a couple of hundred thousand pages. We use NLP and AI on those documents to extract the supply chain information out of it so in that way we can stitch together a more or less complete picture of the supply chain for oil and gas in the U.S. which helps us again to better understand that risk because supply chain breakdown is one of the major risk in the world nowadays. >> Andreas, this has been great! We can keep on going on. I'm totally fascinated by your use of AI but also your use of a data lake and I'm impressed by your ability to get your, as a company get your as we say in the U.S. get your GDPR ducks in a row and that's great. So it's been great to have you on The Cube. We are here at DataWorks Summit in Berlin. (techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from the Moscone Center, it's theCube, covering AWS Summit San Francisco 2018 brought to you by Amazon Web Services. (upbeat music) >> We're back I'm Stu Miniman and we're here with theCube's exclusive coverage of AWS Summit San Francisco here in the Moscone Center West. Happy to welcome to the program two gentlemen from DynaTrace, we've got Andy Grabner, who's a DevOps specialist and Dave Anderson, vice president of marketing. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having us. >> Alright so Dave we'll start, since you've got the marketing title, give us a little bit your role there and for our audience that might not be familiar with DynaTrace, I'm sure everybody knows 'em, but give us a little bit of the background. >> So essentially what DynaTrace does is, the world needs software to work perfectly. What we do is we help customers build and manage their software in their cloud environments on premise to help deliver a fantastic customer experiences because we know that it all needs to work. We've been in the market for the Magic Quadrant leader for the last eight years in the APM space, but we're expanding out beyond that now as the customer demands. >> Excellent, well one of my favorite lines you say you have to make software work, is they said hardware will eventually fail and software will eventually work. So Andy you've given a session here at the show tell us what your role is at DynaTrace, what are you doing here at the show? >> So I've been with the company for 10 years and I've been through a similar transformation that I believe most of the people here want to go through from quote unquote old-fashion, on premise, legacy, monolithic applications to using containers, microservices, and eventually serverless. So my session was all about fearless from monolith to serverless. I gave them some ideas on what we went through, how we as a company transformed, but also how our product transformed from, before we did on premise monitoring, built for the monolithic apps, and now we basically do full cloud-scale, in the cloud, but still covering all the enterprise technology because everybody that wants to build the cool, new stuff that they are selling here, you still have legacy applications that you integrate with and still carry around. So it's all about enterprise cloud technology that we cover. >> So Dave I hear all this I'm sure DynaTrace has more than 10 years of server-less and 12 factor authentication experience, right? >> Dave: Yes. >> Okay so you're the hipster you know, a cloud native company, you were doing all of it before any of us knew about exists. Tell us a little bit, historically, how did DynaTrace start before and move into this space? >> Yeah, so we've been in the space for around 10 years. We've been a leader in the space, but what we really did four or five years ago is we predicted on the future we were going to have serverless environments, we're going to have microservices, customers are going to have multiple cloud environments, they're going to need that software to work and they're going to need automation. So what we did is we took our 50 best engineers and we said go and re-invent the future and that's exactly what they've done. Our CTO has a vision, fully automated IT, so our whole product philosophy is around making it really simple for our customers to be able to see within this really complex digital environment, exactly what's going on, how is the software performing, how are the users adopting it and how do we role out better features and better functions to the customer base. >> All right, I love the re-invent pun, but this is the Summit, ReInvent's in November. Andy, we were talking to Sandy Carter, in the last segment, talking about customers and customers have so many applications that it's great to say this is the future and serverless and micro-architectures distributed is great and everything, but some of your stuff's going to be lift and shift, some of the stuff's probably got to stay where it is for a while, how do customers manage that portfolio and a few years ago it was like, we're going to do a bi-model world, we were not onboard with that, but there's a spectrum and there's lots of applications and it's really complicated, so what is the advice, how do you help customers kind of squint through that, and work through that? >> So I think essentially people want to update the critical apps, be more innovative, they want to go and invest in the new enterprise clouds tech, I would say, right? So we basically help them, first of all, figure out which of the applications that they have right now are easier to migrate, whether it's lift and shift or re-platform because we actually give them full visibility into the current tech, tell them where are the most dependent and least dependent services, which ones are easier to extract and harder to extract, depending on the dependencies and the traffic take us over into criticalities. So we help them first of all figure out their cloud migration plan, what to migrate first. We talked about T-shirt sizing your migration, small, medium, and large, and then not only do we help them to migrate things over but to break the big monoliths apart put stuff on top of it, right? So this is also happening, so we really help them to figure out which application, which service to tackle first, to migrate over. We do it in a safe way because we not only help them to later on monitor their new system, but we help them along the way. So we talked about DevOps earlier. I mean we had our little prep call. We actually think that monitoring, the space we are, is not just something to keep the lights on in production, but it's something that has to be checked along the delivery pipeline. That's why we are part of the development process, we are apart of your CICD, when a code change goes in, an architectural change goes in, when they move over, we monitor all these changes and we give you early warning signals that this change is going to be good one or not a good one. And that's how we solve them. >> Well so much things in the cloud, it's never a one time thing, it's got to be an ongoing process, it's iterative and if I hear right though, you're not just only an AWS, it's my on premises stuff, multi-cloud, you play with all of those environments. >> Yes. Yes exactly so I mean you name it. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to name all the other vendors in this space here at AWS. >> Look we're independent media, we cover all of those shows, and I think your customers are using all them, so you can say, they're all in an AWS, but they might also use GCP and Azure and other stuff. >> I think the stats were like 98 or 90% of customers are hybrid enterprise, multi-cloud, and that's why we designed the product to be able to do just that. They're going to have applications running in the cloud that are making calls back to things on premise. You want to be able to see that entire delivery chain. So absolutely we provide that single visibility across all of their cloud environments and on premise. >> What are you seeing as some of the biggest challenges your customers are facing, Dave? >> The shear, the complexity, the pressures which they face, which is they've got to shift to the cloud faster. They've got their CEO going, we need to provide better digital experience. They're going to build out these new cloud platforms. They're just struggling for time to deploy these things. They need to move faster. There's threats of competition, all the buzzwords that come, but they're all real for IT people. And then all we're doing is giving them that visibility because the environments have become so complex, microservice, serverless, multi-cloud, on-premise, and just to be able to help them challenge the visibility into where is everything, how is it performing, is it working and then give them the confidence to release faster as Andy talks about. >> So Andy, one of the things that people look at sometimes is okay it's a multi-cloud environment, but okay if I go down the container environment, can I do that multi-cloud? If I go down the path of say something like Fargate, that's only with Amazon, so are your customers concerned about that, how deep down do they go? I should say, how far up the stack are they willing to go with Amazon or are they holding back and trying to use services that are more easy to be able to be migrated if need be? >> I want to give you two answers to this. >> Yeah. >> First of all, the developers don't care. >> Okay. >> I don't care where it runs. >> No, I understand. I've got a software development team. When they port it over to any of us, they're like autoscaling's awesome, it's great, I don't want to have to port somewhere else, and if it works, I go back to, it was like, standards and proprietary versus that if you solve my business need, I'm needed. So I agree, but, what's your other answer? >> Yeah so but it is clear that people, what we hear at least, what I hear, people want to figure out, how can they define their next platform and make sure that at least they're not doing a complete vendor lock in, a cloud lock in, so they definitely think and invest in, how can we deliver something, a platform to our developers so that they can just worry about writing code and we make sure that, if we decide Amazon today, maybe something else later, it's not going to be too hard and so I think we see the people try, I think still a lot of people are in the early stages. So they start primarily with one vendor, with one platform, with one technology, but they always make sure that they keep their options open to eventually move over and they're constantly look, that's why they're constantly bringing in new technology, which is also a challenge for every vendor that is here on the floor to make sure we're coping with this technology disruption that is constantly happening, not only for the users, the consumers of the technology, but those of us as vendors and I think that's what we try to keep up with, yeah? >> Yeah, so how we doing as industry and how are customers doing at keeping up with all this change? >> It is, I think, constant dedication, constantly looking what's new. We, as Dave mentioned, we until only a couple of years ago figured out something new is coming, so we actually broke out our own team, our innovation team, that figure out what's the next big thing, I think we see this also with our customers. You constantly have to disrupt yourself, you constantly have to redefine yourself and that's what we did with monitoring. We redefined monitoring because we saw five years ago that a new wave of technology's coming and we don't stop now, we keep innovating and everybody else is doing it as well. You always have to keep up with what's coming and experiment and figure out what makes sense for you and what maybe does not make sense for you. You don't have to be part of every hype. >> And we do that in two ways, we sort of do that also in that a lot of the features that we put into the product actually come from our customer base. So we have a really strong connection with our customers, we listen to the customers, and we say, what do you need, what challenges are you suffering, what would you like to have, and then we build them into our product roadmap. So it's kind of a hybrid model of making sure you're able to listen to the customer and take their needs in, but also sometimes they don't know what's coming, so we'd work with an AWS, to understand what they're building out, and other technology partners to make sure that our product is future proof. >> So when you built that innovation team and everything, is it serverless underneath now for some of your products? >> It's a set of technologies, right? It's all of what you basically see here on the floor and others. I think the nice thing, what I heard actually today on the floor, they said you don't only talk about DevOps and CICD and innovation, you actually live it and what they mean with this, he said, if I look at how often DynaTrace produces new features, we deploy new feature releases twice a month, we deploy daily new updates, and then they said, if you look at other vendors in this space they also claim to be living what they expect from you, but they deploy twice a year still or maybe every other month. So I think we redefined monitoring, but also redefined and live what we actually expect our customers to do. >> Yeah, if you say you're a DevOps company, you better be embracing CICD and publish now and often. All right, Andy and Dave, thank you so much for giving us the updates. Congrats on the progress, we look forward to catching with you up more in the future. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from AWS Summit San Francisco, I'm Stu Miniman. You're watching theCube. 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>> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE we're at the data privacy day at Twitter's world headquarters in downtown San Fransciso and we're really excited to get into it with our next guest Dr. Andreas Weigend, he is now at the Social Data Lab, used to be at Amazon, recently published author. Welcome. >> Good to be here, morning. >> Absolutely, so give us a little about what is Social Data Lab for people who aren't that familiar with it and what are you doing over at Berkeley? >> Alright, so let's start with what is social data? Social data is a data people create and share whether they know it or not and what that means is Twitter is explicit but also a geo location or maybe even just having photos about you. I was in Russia all day during the election day in the United States with Putin, and I have to say that people now share on Facebook what the KGB wouldn't have gotten out of them under torture. >> So did you ever see the Saturday Night Live sketch where they had a congressional hearing and the guy the CIA guy says, Facebook is the most successful project that we've ever launched, people tell us where they are who they're with and what they're going to do, share pictures, location, it's a pretty interesting sketch. >> Only be taught by Black Mirror, some of these episodes are absolutely amazing. >> People can't even watch is it what I have not seen I have to see but they're like that's just too crazy. Too real, too close to home. >> Yeah, so what was the question? >> So let's talk about your new book. >> Oh that was social data. >> Yeah social data >> Yeah, and so I call it actually social data revolution. Because if you think back, 10, 20 years ago we absolutely we doesn't mean just you and me, it means a billion people. They think about who they are, differently from 20 years ago, think Facebook as you mentioned. How we buy things, we buy things based on social data we buy things based on what other people say. Not on what some marketing department says. And even you know, the way we think about information I mean could you do a day without Google? >> No >> No. >> Could you go an hour without Google? >> An hour, yes, when I sleep. But some people actually they Google in their sleep. >> Well and they have their health tracker turned on while they sleep to tell them if they slept well. >> I actually find this super interesting. How dependent I am to know in the morning when I wake up before I can push a smiley face or the okay face or the frowny face, to first see how did I sleep? And if the cycles were nice up and down, then it must have been a good night. >> So it's interesting because the concept from all of these kind of biometric feedback loops is if you have the data, you can change your behavior based on the data, but on the other hand there is so much data and do we really change our behaivor based on the data? >> I think the question is a different one. The question is alright, we have all this data but how can we make sure that this data is used for us, not against us. Within a few hundred meters of here there's a company where employees were asked to wear a fit bit or tracking devices which retain more generally. And then one morning one employee came in after you know not having had an exactly solid night of sleep shall we say and his boss said I'm sorry but I just looked at your fit bit you know this is an important meeting, we can't have you at that meeting. Sorry about that. >> True story? >> Yeah >> Now that's interesting. So I think the fit bit angle is interesting when that is a requirement to have company issued health insurance and they see you've been sitting on your couch too much. Now how does that then run into the HIPPA regulations. >> You know, they have dog walkers here. I'm not sure where you live in San Francisco. But in the area many people have dogs. And I know that a couple of my neighbors they give when the dog walker comes to take the dog, they also give their phone to the dog walker so now it looks like they are taking regular walks and they're waiting for the discount from health insurance. >> Yeah, it's interesting. Works great for the person that does walk or gives their phone to the dog walker. But what about the person that doesn't, what about the person that doesn't stop at stop signs. What happens in a world on business models based on aggregated risk pooling when you can segment the individual? >> That is a very very very biased question. It's a question of fairness. So if we know everything about everybody what would it mean to be fair? As you said, insurance is built on pooling risk and that means by nature that there are things that we don't know about people. So maybe, we should propose lbotomy data lobotomy. So people actually have some part chopped off out of the data chopped off. So now we can pool again. >> Interesting >> Of course not, the answer is that we as society should come up with ways of coming up with objective functions, how do we weigh the person you know taking a walk and then it's easy to agree on the function then get the data and rank whatever insurance premium whatever you're talking about here rank that accordingly. So I really think it's a really important concept which actually goes back to my time at Amazon. Where we came up with fitness functions as we call it. And it takes a lot of work to have probably spent 50 hours on that with me going through groups and groups and groups figuring out, what do we want the fitness function to be like? You have to have the buy in of the groups you know it they just think you know that is some random management thing imposed on us, it's not going to happen. But if they understand that's the output they're managing for, then not bad. >> So I want to follow up on the Amazon piece because we're big fans of Jeff Hamilton and Jeff Bezzos who we go to AWS and it's interesting excuse me, James Hamilton when he talks about the resources that EWS can bring to bear around privacy and security and networking and all this massive infrastructure being built in terms of being able to protect privacy once you're in the quote un-quote public cloud versus people trying to execute that at the individual company level and you know RSA is in a couple of weeks the amount of crazy scary stuff that is coming in for people that want interviews around some of this crazy security stuff. When you look at kind of public cloud versus private cloud and privacy you know supported by a big heavy infrastructure like what EWS has versus a Joe Blow company you know trying to implement them themselves, how do you see that challenge. I mean I don't know how the person can compete with having the resourses again the aggregated resources pool that James Hamilton has to bring to barrel this problem. >> So I think we really need to distinguish two things. Which is security versus privacy. So for security there's no question in my mind that Joe Blow, with this little PC has not a chance against our Chinese or Russian friends. Is no question for me that Amazon or Google have way better security teams than anybody else can afford. Because it is really their bread and butter. And if there's a breach on that level then I think it is terrible for them. Just think about the Sony breach on a much smaller scale. That's a very different point from the point of privacy. And from the point about companies deliberately giving the data about you for targeting purposes for instance. And targeting purposes to other companies So I think for the cloud there I trust, I trust Google, I trust Amazon that they are doing hopefully a better job than the Russian hackers. I am more interested in the discussion on the value of data. Over the privacy discussion after all this is the world privacy day and there the question is what do people understand as the trade off they have, what they give in order to get something. People have talked about Google having this impossible irresistible value proposition that for all of those little data you get for instance I took Google Maps to get here, of course Google needs to know where I am to tell me to turn left at the intersection. And of course Google has to know where I want to be going. And Google knows that a bunch of other people are going there today, and you probably figure out that something interesting is happening here. >> Right >> And so those are the interesting questions from me. What do we do with data? What is the value of data? >> But A I don't really think people understand the amount of data that they're giving over and B I really don't think that they understand I mean now maybe they're starting to understand the value because of the value of companies like Google and Facebook that have the data. But do you see a shifting in A the awareness, and I think it's even worse with younger kids who just have lived on their mobile phones since the day they were conscious practically these days. Or will there be a value to >> Or will they even mobile before they were born? Children now come pre-loaded, because the parents take pictures of their children before they are born >> That's true. And you're right and the sonogram et cetera. But and then how has mobile changed this whole conversation because when I was on Facebook on my PC at home very different set of information than when it's connected to all the sensors in my mobile phone when Facebook is on my mobile phone really changes where I am how fast I'm moving, who I'm in proximity to it completely changed the privacy game. >> Yes so geo location and the ACLU here in Northern California chapter has a very good quote on that. "Geo location is really extremely powerful variable" Now what was the question? >> How has this whole privacy thing changed now with the proliferation of the mobile, and the other thing I would say, when you have kids that grew up with mobile and sharing on the young ones don't use Facebook anymore, Instagram, Snap Chat just kind of the notion of sharing and privacy relative to folks that you know wouldn't even give their credit card over the telephone not that long ago, much less type it into a keyboard, um do they really know the value do they really understand the value do they really get the implications when that's the world in which they've lived in. Most of them, you know they're just starting to enter the work force and haven't really felt the implications of that. >> So for me the value of data is how much the data impacts a decision. So for the side of the individual, if I have data about the restaurant, and that makes me decide whether to go there or to not go there. That is having an impact on my decision thus the data is valuable. For a company a decision whether to show me this offer or that offer that is how data is valued from the company. So that kind of should be quantified The value of the picture of my dog when I was a child. That is you know so valuable, I'm not talking about this. I'm very sort of rational here in terms of value of data as the impact is has on decisions. >> Do you see companies giving back more of that value to the providers of that data? Instead of you know just simple access to useful applications but obviously the value exceeds the value of the application they're giving you. >> So you use the term giving back and before you talked about kids giving up data. So I don't think that it is quite the right metaphor. So I know that metaphor come from the physical world. That sometimes has been data is in your oil and that indeed is a good metaphor when it comes to it needs to be refined to have value. But there are other elements where data is very different from oil and that is that I don't really give up data when I share and the company doesn't really give something back to me but it is much interesting exchange like a refinery that I put things in and now I get something not necessarily back I typically get something which is very different from what I gave because it has been combined with the data of a billion other people. And that is where the value lies, that my data gets combined with other peoples data in some cases it's impossible to actually take it out it's like a drop of ink, a drop in the ocean and it spreads out and you cannot say, oh I want my ink back. No, it's too late for that. But it's now spread out and that is a metaphor I think I have for data. So people say, you know I want to be in control of my data. I often think they don't have deep enough thought of what they mean by that. I want to change the conversation of people saying You what can I get by giving you the data? How can you help me make better decisions? How can I be empowered by the data which you are grabbing or which you are listening to that I produce. That is a conversation which I want to ask here at the Privacy Day. >> And that's happening with like Google Maps obviously you're exchanging the information, you're walking down the street, you're headed here they're telling you that there's a Starbucks on the corner if you want to pick up a coffee on the way. So that is already kind of happening right and that's why obviously Google has been so successful. Because they're giving you enough and you're giving them more and you get in this kind of virtuous cycle in terms of the information flow but clearly they're getting a lot more value than you are in terms of their you know based on their market capitalization you know, it's a very valuable thing in the aggregation. So it's almost like a one plus one makes three >> Yes. >> On their side. >> Yes, but it's a one trick pony ultimately. All of the money we make is rats. >> Right, right that's true. But in-- >> It's a good one to point out-- >> But then it begs the question too when we no longer ask but are just delivered that information. >> Yes, I have a friend Gam Dias and he runs a company called First Retail, and he makes the point that there will be no search anymore in a couple of years from now. What are you talking about? I search every day, but is it. Yes. But You know, you will get the things before you even think about it and with Google now a few years ago when other things, I think he is quite right. >> We're starting to see that, right where the cards come to you with a guess as to-- >> And it's not so complicated If let's see you go to the symphony you know, my phone knows that I'm at the symphony even if I turn it off, it know where I turned it off. And it knows when the symphony ends because there are like a thousand other people, so why not get Ubers, Lyfts closer there and amaze people by wow, your car is there already. You know that is always a joke what we have in Germany. In Germany we have a joke that says, Hey go for vacation in Poland your car is there already. But maybe I shouldn't tell those jokes. >> Let's talk about your book. So you've got a new book that came out >> Yeah >> Just recently released, it's called Data for the People. What's in it what should people expect, what motivated you to write the book? >> Well, I'm actually excited yesterday I got my first free copies not from the publisher and not from Amazon. Because they are going by the embargo by which is out next week. But Barnes and Noble-- >> They broke the embargo-- Barnes and Noble. Breaking news >> But three years of work and basically it is about trying to get people to embrace the data they create and to be empowered by the data they create. Lots of stories from companies I've worked with Lots of stories also from China, I have a house in China I spend a month or two months there every year for the last 15 years and the Chinese ecosystem is quite different from the US ecosystem and you of course know that the EU regulations are quite different from the US regulations. So, I wrote on what I think is interesting and I'm looking forward to actually rereading it because they told me I should reread it before I talk about it. >> Because when did you submit it? You probably submitted it-- >> Half a year >> Half a year ago, so yeah. Yeah. So it's available at Barnes and Noble and now Amazon >> It is available. I mean if you order it now, you'll get it by Monday. >> Alright, well Dr. Andreas Weigin thanks for taking a few minutes, we could go forever and ever but I think we've got to let you go back to the rest of the sessions. >> Thank you for having me. >> Alright, pleasure Jeff Frick, you're watching theCUBE see you next time.

>>Hello, welcome to the Cube here in Palo Alto, California. We're here for a preview of Ansible Fest 2022 this year in Chicago, in Person. And I'm here with Andreas. I've been on Craus, who's a senior manager for Ansible Technical Marketing at Red Hat. And just great to see you Cube alumni. Thanks for coming on and giving us a preview of what to expect at Ansible Fest. Thanks. >>No problem. Thanks for having us and thanks for everyone tuning in. >>You know, one of the things that's exciting this year is one, it's back in person from 2019 was the last in person Ansible Fest. Always a great event for folks doing it. Cloud native configuration management and automation, I think, and last year in our virtual event was the three things where automation, automation, automation kind of drove the point home. This year it's, it's more exciting than ever because if you look at the growth of Cloud Native, we're seeing a lot more traction in mainstream enterprises with Kubernetes. And obviously containers continue to grow with open source, powering everything under the coverage. So like this has like become such a whole nother inflection point this year more than ever. There's a focus on not just automation, but where the dots are gonna connect into the future. So I'd like to get your thoughts on what we're gonna expect this year at Ansible Fest. What's the themes? What do you, what do you see coming down the pike? What can people expect, >>People can really expect? Thanks. Thanks very much John. Really excited. So we're gonna see a lot of what we've seen before, right? So a little difference is from the previous onsite Ansel Fest is, I think we no longer have to say, you know, what's Ansible? We typically have had to say, you know, what is this Ansible thing? I don't know what this is. This is automation. I think we've gone beyond that and this is great. Ansible itself is now the defacto, what we believe is the de facto kind of automation language and Ansible automation platform is the defacto automation platform. So as you move into this year, we we're gonna be able to see, be able to really hone in on really having those beginners starting off much, much more quickly. But also those that have no and love Ansible for over the years to take that automation to the next level to, to new areas. Either new domains going beyond the data center, into the cloud, and then going beyond by all the partner certifications, integrations that we have. So it's a lot, it's just more of, of everything I think. So it's more for everyone all the time. So it's not, it's you, it's, it's no longer kind of a beginner's for everything, but we go all the way to kind of crawl, walk, run for this one. >>You know, it always surprises me every year, I'm always surprised by how great open source I remember every year. It's like, pinch me, This is amazing. If you're a developer right now, it's a good time to be coding because of open source growth is, is at an all time high, continues to grow, more projects are emerging. DevOps, which really came out of the ethos of the kind of the early days of the cloud and, and and scaling infrastructure was, was about infrastructure as code, which was the dream we all had in the late two thousands. If you remember right now that's happened. DevOps is now in the C I C D pipeline. Developers are shifting. Left cloud native hybrid actually now is a steady state and that's pretty well documented. What, what's next beyond infrastructures code? What's beyond the on premise cloud integration from a, from a, from a tech standpoint, what are you guys seeing around infrastructures, code, what's next and then what's beyond on premise? >>I think the big thing is scale, right? So we've always been able to kind of automate people, developers, as you said, DevOps, you can automate from your laptop, you can open up your laptop, download some open source Ansible and you know, automate your windows, your Linux, your network, no problem. But how do you actually operationalize that in an enterprise way across large teams, right? A global environment and then being able to like actually secure that, right? Security is such a big, sp a big piece of that now. So being able to actually apply automation securely in secure environments. So, and wrap all of that around cloud, right? So we've always been talking about a, you, you mentioned it on premises going into the cloud, right? So being able to operationalize in the cloud. So being able to automate cloud targets. So being able to automate aws, Azure GCP targets, but also running your automation on the cloud like say OpenShift. So being able to dynamically load load balance, create execution on demand for Ansible in OpenShift. So it's kind of hard and we, we hope that an Ansible fest will be able to kind of like demystify that from like when you hear, when you hear the word cloud and, and cloud native and hybrid cloud, it kind of goes in your head. We hope to kind of clear that up for folks at, at the fest. >>Certainly we're gonna talk about Super Cloud as well with the cube there. I wanna hear your thoughts real quick on the edge. You know, we gonna hear anything about the edge. This, this year, again, Edge has become hugely important, but yet it's not clear to a lot of people what that looks like. Are we gonna hear anything there? >>Absolutely. Edges is huge. And to some people I will say that when, when you say edge automation, it may not click to some folks, but if you were to say automating wireless access points in a branch office, you thinking, oh, okay, I can't now I know what you're talking about. Right? So a lot of people really may not have made the connection to what Edge Automation is because we, you know, maybe that hasn't been defined. And as we start moving into edge automation, we can start talking about extending, right? We're already talking about extending the data center, especially for network automation. So network automation no longer is in data center. You can now extend that out to the branch office to campus Wireless, right? And you can also extend that out into other areas such as industrial applications, right? If you wanna move a glue gun from one end of the warehouse to the other, you know, that has to be automated and we'll be able to be able to do that by means of some of the enhancements we made for that. >>What can customers and attendees who are gonna be there either in person and after remote hybrid expect us hear about Ansible's automation platform this year? What's gonna be some of the announcements? Can you tease a little bit out on what >>I can tease a little bit? Yeah. You know, day one's gonna be more of making me upleveling what you have today. I think you're gonna see some of the, the futures, right? A lot of the things around Edge, you'll hear something called event driven automation. So you, this is, this is very akin to maybe self-driving or self-healing or, you know, being able to automatically say event is triggered and then you can actually cause some automation to be spun up to actually remediate those things. So going beyond observability, right? Observability is great, but just observing problems is, is, you know, I can look at a million things wrong in my network, but if they're not being remediated, you know, it doesn't really mean much. So, you know, talking about event driven there is gonna be really hot. And then a lot of the other use cases in frameworks, you know, going beyond the configuration, I think, yeah, >>I think they develop things. Cool. And, and final question for you, because one of the things that last year we came away with was automation. What's that next automation at scale. Because remember, you know, we remember where we came from writing scripts, automating things from just basic scripting and, and configuration automation to full scale automation. That's become a big part and we see a lot of that in the cloud. Native conversations with containers and whatnot. How do you scale at, at, at, in the cloud with the cloud na hyperscalers. So again, the relationship with the hyperscalers and scale, what can we expect to hear there? >>Oh, everything from, so we'll be teasing out a little bit. You, you know that we have Ansible automation platform on Azure as a marketplace offering. We may be extending that to maybe some other hyperscalers. So making it super easy for customers or prospects to get automating quickly in their hyperscaler of choice, using their own means and, and, and methods and processes. And then going beyond that and ensuring security. So I mess in security again, how do you ensure that what you're in, what you're actually automating is part of like a security supply chain is part of your content or part of your playbooks and keeping things actually running well at scale, like you said, >>Okay, you got Azure, I'll put, I'll put my guessing hat on. There's only a few others in the pull from. That's awesome. Congratulations. And looking forward to the event, final word here. What's, what's, what do you see outcome at the end of the event? What's gonna, what's in your mind's eye? What's the, what's the outcome look like? >>Yeah, I, I just gotta do a shameless plug. I'm actually running the labs and workshops. So if you're in person or if you're not, you know, come check out the labs and workshops. We have four rooms. You can just camp out and just do hands on learning with workshop instructor led learnings or self-paced training. You can see me and all that. But I think the future learnings here is really trying to futureproof everyone's use cases. So actually, you know, you talk about ai, you talk about Cloud native, talking about other Red Hat products being, being part of that conversation with re and OpenShift, it's really a great time to, to be automating right now. >>And it's interesting. And the Ansible community that's well, well known. They all know each other and it's, it, I won't say niche, it's not niche anymore. It used to be one of those areas where super important for making things run now we need to take cloud and cloud scale. Horizontal scalability across multiple environments is kind of an Ansible thing, right? It's like you need to think about how to scale the Ansible concept. And I think that's the big exciting thing that I see with Cloud Native Andrews is this idea that, you know, what Ansible stood for back then now applies to almost all environments. So the automation, the scaling of, of, of configurations and tearing stuff down and standing things up with machines and software is just, I think, an incredible opportunity. And I think it operations is now in the developer's hands and data and security ops are front and center in, in all these conversations. And it's gonna be super exciting. Can't wait to, can't wait to hear. Okay. Thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thanks for, for giving your opinion. >>All right. I appreciate it. Thank you very much for hosting us. See you and we'll see you there in Chicago. >>Okay. Andrew's been a creative senior manager and it's potential marketing to breaking it down, getting the preview on what's coming, expect to hear more about automation and how it's relevant at scale and, and all new things are happening with cloud native inflection point. We're living right now. So we'll see you there. Thanks for watching.

welcome back to thecube's live coverage coming to you from the big apple in new york city we're talking all things aws summit but right now i've got two powerhouses you know them you love them john furrier dave vellante going to be talking about super cloud guys we've been talking a lot about this there's a big event coming up on the cube august 9th and i gotta start dave with you because we talk about it pretty much in every interview where it's relevant why super cloud yeah so john furrier years ago started a tradition lisa prior to aws which was to lay down the expectation for our audiences what they should be looking for at aws reinvent okay john when did that start 2012 2013. actually 2013 was our first but 2015 was the first time when we get access to andy jassy who wasn't doing any briefings and we realized that the whole industry started looking at amazon web services as a structural forcing function of massive change uh some say inflection point we were saying complete redefinition so you wrote the trillion dollar baby yeah right which actually turns into probably multi-trillion dollars we got it right on that one surprisingly it was pretty obvious so every year since then john has published the seminal article prior to reinvent so this year we were talking we're coming out of the isolation economy and john hedwig also also adam silevski was the new ceo so we had a one-on-one with adam that's right and then that's where the convergence between andy jassy and adam celebski kicked in which is essentially those guys work together even though they he went off and boomerang back in as they say in aws but what's interesting was is that adam zluski's point of view piggyback jassy but he had a different twist yeah some so you know low you know people who didn't have really a lot of thought into it said oh he's copying microsoft moving up the stack we're like no no no no no something structural is happening again and so john wrote the piece and he started sharing it we're collaborating he said hey dave take a take a look add your perspectives and then jerry chen had just written castles in the cloud and he talked about sub-markets and we were sort of noodling and one of the other things was in 2018 2019 around that time at aws re invent there was this friction between like snowflake and aws because redshift separated compute from storage which was snowflake's whole thing now fast forward to 2021 after we're leaving you know the covert economy by the way everyone was complaining they are asking jassy are you competing with your ecosystem the classic right trope and then in in remember jason used to use cloudera as the example i would like to maybe pick a better example snowflake became that example and what the transition was it went from hey we're kind of competitive for sure there's a lot of examples but it went from we're competitive they're stealing our stuff to you know what we're making so much money building on top of aws specifically but also the clouds and cross clouds so we said there's something new happening in the ecosystem and then just it popped up this term super cloud came up to connote a layer that floats above the hyperscale capex not is it's not pass it's not sas it's the combination of the of those things on top of a new digital infrastructure and we chose the term super cloud we liked it better than multi-cloud because multiplayer at least one other point too i think four or five years earlier dave and i across not just aws reinvent all of our other events we were speculating that there might be a tier two cloud service provider models and we've talked with intel about this and others just kind of like evaluating it staring at it and we met by tier two like maybe competing against amazon but what happened was it wasn't a tier two cloud it was a super cloud built on the capex of aws which means initially was a company didn't have to build aws to be like aws and everybody wanted to be like aws so we saw the emergence of the smart companies saying hey let's refactor our business model in the category or industry scope and to dominate with cloud scale and they did it that then continued that was the premise of chen's post which was kind of rift on the cube initially which is you can have a moat in a castle in the cloud and have a competitive advantage and a sustainable differentiation model and that's exactly what's happening and then you introduce the edge and hybrid you now have a cloud operating model that that super cloud extends as a substrate across all environments so it's not multi-cloud which sounds broken and like put it distance jointed joint barriers hybrid cloud which is the hybrid operating model at scale and you don't have to be amazon to take advantage of all the value creation since they took care of the capex now they win too on the other side because because they're selling ec2 and storage and ml and ai and this is new and this is information that people don't might not know about internally at aws there was a debate dave okay i heard this from sources do we go all in and compete and just own the whole category or open the ecosystem and coexist with [ __ ] why do we have these other companies or snowflake and guess what the decision was let's make it open ecosystem and let's have our own offerings as well and let the winner take off smart because they can't hire enough people and we just had aws and snowflake on the cube a few weeks ago talking about the partnership the co-op petition the value in it but what's been driving it is the voice of the customer but i want to ask you paint the picture for the audience of the critical key components of super cloud what are those yeah so i think first and foremost super cloud as john was saying it's not multi-cloud chuck whitten had a great phrase at dell tech world he said multi-cloud by default right versus multi-cloud by design and multi-cloud has been by default it's been this sort of i run in aws and i run my stack in azure or i run my stack in gcp and it works or i wrap my stack in a container and host it in the cloud that's what multi-cloud has been so the first sort of concept is it's a layer that that abstracts the underlying complexity of all the clouds all the primitives uh it takes advantage of maybe graviton or microsoft tooling hides all that and builds new value on top of that the other piece of of super cloud is it's ecosystem driven really interesting story you just told because literally amazon can't hire everybody right so they have to rely on the ecosystem for feature acceleration so it's it also includes a path layer a super pass layer we call it because you need to develop applications that are specific to the problem that the super cloud is solving so it's not a generic path like openshift it's specific to whether it's snowflake or [ __ ] or aviatrix so that developers can actually build on top of and not have to worry about that underlying and also there's some people that are criticizing um what we're doing in a good way because we want to have an open concept sure but here's the thing that a lot of people don't understand they're criticizing or trying to kind of shoot holes in our new structural change that we're identifying to comparing it to old that's like saying mainframe and mini computers it's like saying well the mainframe does it this way therefore there's no way that's going to be legitimate so the old thinking dave is from people that have no real foresight in the new model right and so they don't really get it right so what i'm saying is that we look at structural change structural change is structural change it either happens or it doesn't so what we're observing is the fact that a snowflake didn't design their solution to be multi-cloud they did it all on aws and then said hey why would we why are we going to stop there let's go to azure because microsoft's got a boatload of customers because they have a vertically stacking integration for their install base so if i'm snowflake why wouldn't i be on azure and the same for gcp and the same for other things so this idea that you can get the value of an amp what amazon did leverage and all that value without paying for it up front is a huge dynamic and that's not just saying oh that's cloud that's saying i have a cloud-like scale cloud-like value proposition which which will look like an ecosystem so to me the acid test is if i build on top of say [ __ ] or say snowflake or super cloud by default i'm either a category leader i own the data at scale or i'm sharing data at scale and i have an ecosystem people are building on top of me so that's a platform so that's really difficult so what's happening is these ecosystem partners are taking advantage as john said of all the hyperscale capex and they're building out their version of a distributed global system and then the other attribute of super cloud is it's got metadata management capability in other words it knows if i'm optimizing for latency where in the super cloud to get the data or how to protect privacy or sovereignty or how many copies to make to have the proper data protection or where the air gap should be for ransomware so these are examples of very specific purpose-built super clouds that are filling gaps that the hyperscalers aren't going after what's a good example of a specific super cloud that you think really articulates what you guys are talking about i think there are a lot of them i think snowflake is a really good example i think vmware is building a multi-cloud management system i think aviatrix and virtual you know private cloud networking and for high performance networking i think to a certain extent what oracle is doing with azure is is is definitely looks like a super cloud i think what capital one is doing by building on to taking their own tools and and and moving that to snowflake now that they're not cross-cloud yet but i predict that they will be of i think uh what veeam is doing in data protection uh dell what they showed at dell tech world with project alpine these are all early examples of super well here's an indicator here's how you look at the example so to me if you're just lifting and shifting that was the first gen cloud that's not changing the business model so i think the number one thing to look at is is the company whether they're in a vertical like insurance or fintech or financial are they refactoring their spend not as an i.t cost but as a refactoring of their business model yes like what snowflake did dave or they say okay i'm gonna change how i operate not change my business model per se or not my business identity if i'm gonna provide financial services i don't have to spend capex it's operating expenses i get the capex leverage i redefine i get the data at scale and now i become a service provider to everybody else because scale will determine the power law of who wins in the verticals and in the industry so we believe that snowflake is a data warehouse in the cloud they call it a data cloud now i don't think snowflake would like that dave i call them a data warehouse no a super data cloud but but so the other key here is you know the old saying that andreessen came up with i guess with every company's a software company well what does that mean it means every company software company every company is going digital well how are they going to do that they're going to do that by taking their business their data their tooling their proprietary you know moat and moving that to the cloud so they can compete at scale every company should be if they're not thinking about doing a super cloud well walmart i think i think andreessen's wrong i think i would revise and say that andreessen and the brain trust at andreas and horowitz is that that's no longer irrelevant every company isn't a software company the software industry is called open source everybody is an open source company and every company will be at super cloud that survives yeah to me to me if you're not looking at super cloud as a strategy to get value and refactor your business model take advantage of what you're paying it for but you're paying now in a new way you're building out value so that's you're either going to be a super cloud or get services from a super cloud so if you're not it's like the old joke dave if you're at the table and you don't know who the sucker is it's probably you right so if you're looking at the marketplace you're saying if i'm not a super cloud i'm probably gonna have to work with one because they're gonna have the data they're gonna have the insights they're gonna have the scale they're going to have the castle in the cloud and they will be called a super cloud so in customer conversations helping customers identify workloads to move to the cloud what are the ideal workloads and services to run in super cloud so i honestly think virtually any workload could be a candidate and i think that it's really the business that they're in that's going to define the workload i'll say what i mean so there's certain businesses where low latency high performance transactions are going to matter that's you know kind of the oracle's business there's certain businesses like snowflake where data sharing is the objective how do i share data in a governed way in a secure way in any location across the world that i can monetize so that's their objective you take a data protection company like veeam their objective is to protect data so they have very specific objectives that ultimately dictate what the workload looks like couchbase is another one they they in my opinion are doing some of the most interesting things at the edge because this is where when you when you really push companies in the cloud including the hyperscalers when they get out to the far edge it starts to get a little squishy couchbase actually is developing capabilities to do that and that's to me that's the big wild card john i think you described it accurately the cloud is expanding you've got public clouds no longer just remote services you're including on-prem and now expanding out to the near edge and the deep what do you call it deep edge or far edge lower sousa called the tiny edge right deep edge well i mean look at look at amazon's outpost announcement to me hp e is opportunity dell has opportunities the hardware box guys companies they have an opportunity to be that gear to be an outpost to be their own output they get better stacks they have better gear they just got to run cloud on it yeah right that's an edge node right so so that's that would be part of the super cloud so this is where i think people that are looking at the old models like operating systems or systems mindsets from the 80s they look they're not understanding the new architecture what i would say to them is yeah i hear what you're saying but the structural change is the nodes on the network distributed computing if you will is going to run hybrid cloud all the way across the fact that it's multiple clouds is just coincidence on who's got the best capex value that people build on for their super cloud capability so why wouldn't i be on azure if microsoft's going to give me all their customers that are running office 365 and teams great if i want to be on amazon's kind of sweet which is their ecosystem why wouldn't i want to tap into that so again you can patch it all together in the super cloud so i think the future will be distributed computing cloud architecture end to end and and we felt that was different from multi-cloud you know if you want to call it multi-cloud 2.0 that's fine but you know frankly you know sometimes we get criticized for not defining it tightly enough but we continue to evolve that definition i've never really seen a great definition from multi-cloud i think multi-cloud by default was the definition i run in multiple clouds you know it works in azure it's not a strategy it's a broken name it's a symptom right it's a symptom of multi-vendor is really what multi-cloud has been and so we felt like it was a new term of examples look what we're talking about snowflake data bricks databricks another good one these are these are examples goldman sachs and we felt like the term immediately connotes something bigger something that sits above the clouds and is part of a digital platform you know the people poo poo the metaverse because it's really you know not well defined but every 15 or 20 years this industry goes through dave let me ask you a question so uh lisa you too if i'm in the insurance vertical uh and i'm a i'm an insurance company i have competitors my customers can go there and and do business with that company and you know and they all know that they go to the same conferences but in that sector now you have new dynamics your i.t spend isn't going to keep the lights on and make your apps work your back-end systems and your mobile app to get your whatever now it's like i have cloud scale so what if i refactored my business model become a super cloud and become the major primary service provider to all the competitors and the people that are the the the channel partners of the of the ecosystem that means that company could change the category totally okay and become the dominant category leader literally in two three years if i'm geico okay i i got business in the cloud because i got the app and i'm doing transactions on geico but with all the data that they're collecting there's adjacent businesses that they can get into maybe they're in the safety business maybe they can sell data to governments maybe they can inform logistics and highway you know patterns roll up all the people that don't have the same scale they have and service them with that data and they get subscription revenue and they can build on top of the geico super insurance cloud right yes it's it's unlimited opportunity that's why it's but the multi-trillion dollar baby so talk to us you've done an amazing job of talking which i know you would of why super cloud what it is the critical components the key workloads great examples talk to us in our last few minutes about the event the cube on super cloud august 9th what's the audience going to who are they going to hear from what are they going to learn yeah so august 9th live out of our palo alto studio we're going to have a program that's going to run from 9 a.m to 1 p.m and we're going to have a number of industry luminaries in there uh kit colbert from from vmware is going to talk about you know their strategy uh benoit de javille uh from snowflake is going to is going to be there of g written house of sky-high security um i i i don't want to give it away but i think steve mullaney is going to come on adrian uh cockroft is coming on the panel keith townsend sanjeev mohan will be on so we'll be running that live and also we'll be bringing in pre-recorded interviews that we'll have prior to the show that will run post the live event it's really a pilot virtual event we want to do a physical event we're thinking but the pilot is to bring our trusted friends together they're credible that have industry experience to try to understand the scope of what we're talking about and open it up and help flesh out the definition make it an open model where we can it's not just our opinion we're observing identifying the structural changes but bringing in smart people our smart friends and companies are saying yeah we get behind this because it has it has legs for a reason so we're gonna zoom out and let people participate and let the conversation and the community drive the content and that is super important to the cube as you know dave but i think that's what's going on lisa is that it's a pilot if it has legs we'll do a physical event certainly we're getting phones to bring it off the hook for sponsors so we don't want to go and go all in on sponsorships right now because it's not about money making it's about getting that super cloud clarity around to help companies yeah we want to evolve the concept and and bring in outside perspectives well the community is one of the best places to do that absolutely organic it's an organic community where i mean people want to find out what's going on with the best practices of how to transform a business and right now digital transformation is not just getting digitized it's taking advantage of the technology to leapfrog the competition so all the successful people we talked to at least have the same common theme i'm changing my game but not changing my game to the customer i'm just going to do it differently better faster cheaper more efficient and have higher margins and beat the competition that's the company doesn't want to beat the competition go to thecube.net if you're not all they're all ready to register for the cube on supercloud august 9th 9am pacific you won't want to miss it for john furrier and dave vellante i'm lisa martin we're all coming at you from new york city at aws summit 22. i'll be right back with our next guest [Music] you

>> Hello everyone. Welcome to this CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier host like you here in our Palo Alto studio here in Palo Alto. Here with Dominic Wilde, known as Dom, CEO of SnapRoute, a hot new startup. A great venture. Backers don. Welcome to skip conversation. So love having to start ups. And so talk about Snape route the company because you're doing something interesting that we've been covering your pretty aggressively the convergence between Dev Ops and Networking. We've known you for many, many years. You were a former Hewlett Packard than you woodpecker enterprise running the networking group over there. You know, networking. And you're an operator. Snap rows. Interesting, because, um, great names back behind it. Big venture backers. Lightspeed Norwest, among others. Yes. Take a minute. Explain what? A SnapRoute. >> So SnapRoute was founded to really address one of the big, big problems we see in infrastructure, which is that, you know, essentially the network gets in the way of the deployment the rapid and angel deployment of applications. And so in the modern environment that we're in, you know, the business environment, highly competitive environment of disruption, continuous disruption going on in our industry, every company out there is constantly looking over their shoulder is, you know, making sure that they're moving fast enough there innovating fast enough that they don't want to be disrupted. They don't want to be overrun by, you know, a new upstart. And in order to do that, you know the application is is actually the work product that you really want to deploy, that you you want to roll out, and you want to be able to do that on a continuous basis. You want to be really agile about how you do it. And, quite frankly, when it comes to infrastructure, networking has been fifteen years behind the rest of the infrastructure and enabling that it's, ah, it's a big roadblock. It's obviously, you know, some of the innovations and developments and networking of lag behind other areas on what we snap Brown set out to do was to say, You know, look, if we're if we're going to bring networking forward and we're going to try and solve some of these problems, how do we do that? In a way, architecturally, that will enable networking to become not just a part of Ah, you know a cloud native infrastructure but actually enable those those organizations to drive forward. And so what we did was we took all of our sort of devops principles and Dev ups tools, and we built a network operating system from the ground up using devops principles, devops architectures and devops tools. And so what we're delivering is a cloud native network operating system that is built entirely on containers and is delivered is a micro services architecture on the big...one of the big value propositions that we deliver is what we call see a CD for networking, which is your continuous integration. Continuous deployment is obviously, you know, Big devops principal there. But doing that for networking, allowing a network to be constantly up enabling network Teo adapt to immutable infrastructure principles. You know we're just replacing pieces that need to be replaced. Different pieces of the operating system can be replaced If there's a security vulnerability, for instance, or if there's ah, bugger and you feature needed so you know we can innovate quicker. We can enable the network to be more reliable, allow it to be more agile, more responsive to the needs of the organization on all of this, fundamentally means that your Operation shins model now becomes ah, lot more unified. A lot more simple. You. Now, we now enable the net ox teams to become a sort of more native part of the conversation with devils. Reduce the tension there, eliminate any conflicts and everything. And we do that through this. You know, this innovative offices. >> Classically, the infrastructure is code ethos. >> Yeah, exactly right. I mean, it's you know, a lot of people have been talking about infrastructure is code for a long, long time. But what we really do, I mean, if if you deploy our network operating system you employ onto the bare metal switching, then you really enable Dev ops to hang have, you know, I take control and to drive the network in the way they want using their native tool chains. So, you know, Cuba Netease, for instance, ears. You know that the big growing dev ops orchestration to all of the moment. In fact, we think it's more than of the moment. You know, I've never seen in the industry that sort of, you know, this kind of momentum behind on open source initiative like there is behind Cuba. Netease. And we've taken communities and baked it natively into the operating system. Such that now our network operating system that runs on a physical switch can be a native part off that communities and develops tool >> Dom, I want to get to the marketplace, dynamics. Kind of what's different. Why now? But I think what's interesting about SnapRoute you're the chief of is that it's a venture back with big names? Yeah. Lightspeed, Norwest, among others. It's a signal of a wave that we've been covering people are interested in. How do you make developers deploy faster, more agility at scale, on premises and in clouds. But I want you to before we get there, want to talk about the origin story of company? Yeah. Why does it exist? How did it come to bear you mentioned? Operation is a big part of cloud to cloud is about operating model so much a company. Yes. This is the big trend. That's the big way. But how did it all get started? What's the SnapRoute story? >> Yeah, it's an interesting story. Our founders were actually operators at at Apple back in the day, and they were responsible for building out some of Apple's biggest. You know, data centers for their sort of customer facing services, like, you know, like loud iTunes, all those good things and you know they would. They were tasked with, sort of, you know, sort of modernizing the operational model with with those data centers and, you know, and then they, like many other operators, do you know, had a sense of community and worked with their peers. You know, another big organizations, even you know, other hyper scale organizations and wanted to learn from what they did on DH. What they recognised was that, you know, cos like, you know, Google and Facebook and Microsoft is urine things. They had done some incredible things and some incredible innovations around infrastructure and particularly in networking, that enabled them to Dr Thie infrastructure from A from a Devil ops perspective and make it more native. But those words that if you know, fairly tailored for there, if you know, for their organizations and so what they saw was the opportunity to say, Well, you know, there's there's many other organizations who are delivering, you know, infrastructure is a service or SAS, or you know, who are just very large enterprises who are acting as these new cloud service providers. And they would have a need to, you know, to also have, you know, tools and capabilities, particularly in the network, to enable the network to be more responsive, more to the devil apps like. And so, you know, they they they founded SnapRoute on that principle that, you know, here's the problem that we know we can solve. It's been solved, you know, some degree, but it's an architectural problem, and it's not about taking, You know, all of the, you know, the last twenty five years of networking knowledge and just incrementally doing a sort of, you know, dot upgrade and, you know, trying to sort of say, Hey, we're just add on some AP eyes and things. You really needed to start from the ground up and rethink this entirely from an architectural perspective and design the network operating system as on with Dev ups, tools and principles. So they started the company, you know, been around just very late two thousand fifteen early two thousand sixteen. >> And how much money have you read >> The last around. We are Siri's, eh? We took in twenty five million. >> And who were the venture? >> It was Lightspeed Ventures on DH Norwest. And we also had some strategic investment from Microsoft Ventures and from teams >> from great name blue chips. What was their interest? What was their thesis? Well, and you mentioned the problem. What was the core problem that you're solving that they were attracted to? Why would that why was the thirst with such big name VCs? >> Yeah, I mean, I think it was, you know, a zip said, I think it's the the opportunity to change the operational more. And I think one of the big things that was very different about our company is and, you know, we like to say, you know, we're building for effort. Operators, by operators, you know, I've found is, as I said, well, more operators from Apple, they have lived and breathed what it is to be woken up at three. A. M. On Christmas Eve toe. You know, some outage and have to, you know, try and figure that out and fight your way through a legacy kind of network and figure out what's going on. So you know, so they empathize with what that means and having that DNA and our company is incredibly meaningful in terms of how we build that you know the product on how we engage with customers. We're not just a bunch of vendors who you know we're coming from, you know, previous spender backgrounds. Although I do, you know, I bring to the table the ability to, you know, to deliver a package and you know, So there's just a cloud scale its clouds, Gail. It's it's but it's It's enabling a bridge if you like. If you look at what the hyper scales have done, what they're achieving and the operational models they have, where a if you like a bridge to enable that capability for a much broader set of operators and C. S. P s and as a service companies and dry forward a an aggressive Angela innovation agenda for companies, >> businesses. You know, we always discussing the Cuban. Everyone who watches the Kiev knows I'm always ranting about how cloud providers make their market share numbers, and lot of people include sass, right? I think everyone will be in the SAS business, so I kind of look at the SAS numbers on, say, it's really infrastructures service platform to service Amazon, Google, Microsoft and then, you know, Ali Baba in China. Others. Then you got IBM or one of it's kind of in the big kind of cluster there top. That is a whole nother set of business requirements that sass driven this cloud based. Yeah, this seems to be a really growing market. Is that what you're targeting? And the question is, how do you relate Visa? Visa Cooper? Netease trend? Because communities and these abstraction layers, you're starting to hear things like service mesh, policy based state Full application states up. Is that you trying to that trend explain. >> We're very complimentary, Teo. Those trends, we're, you know, we're not looking to replace any of that, really. And and my big philosophy is, if you're not simplifying something, then you're not really adding back here, you know, what you're doing is complicating matters or adding another layer on top. So so yeah, I mean, we are of value to those companies who are looking at hybrid approaches or have some on prime asset. Our operating system will land on a physical, bare metal switch So you know what? What we do is when you look at it, you know, service most is your message measures and all the other, You know, technologies you talked about with very, very complimentary to those approaches because we're delivering the on underlying network infrastructure on network fabric. Whatever you'd like to call it, that can be managed natively with class native tools, squeezing the alliteration there. But but, you know, it means that you don't need toe add overlays. We don't need to sort of say, Hey, look, the network is this static, archaic thing that's really fragile. And And I mean, if we touch it, it's going to break. So let's just leave it alone and let's let's put some kind of overlay over the top of it on do you know, run over the top? What we're saying is you can collapse that down. Now what you can say, what you can do is you can say, Well, let's make the network dynamic responsive. Let's build a network operating system out of micro services so you can replace parts of it. You can, you know, fix bugs. You can fix security vulnerabilities and you can do all that on the fly without having to schedule outage windows, which is, you know, for a cloud native company or a sass or infrastructure service company. I mean, that's your business. You can't take outage windows. Your business depends on being available all the time. And so we were really changing that fundamentals of a principle of networking and saying, You know, networking is now dynamic, you know, in a very, very native way, but it also integrates very closely with Dev ops. Operational model >> is a lot of innovation that network. We're seeing that clearly around the industry. No doubt everyone sees late and see that comes into multi Cloud was saying that the trend moving the data to the compute coyote again that's a network issue network is now an innovation opportunity. So I gotta ask you, where do you guys see that happening? And I want to ask you specifically talking about the cloud architects out in the marketplace in these enterprises who were trying to figure out about the architecture of clowns. So they know on premises there, moving that into a cloud operations. We see Amazon, they see Google and Microsoft has clouds that might want to engage with have cloud native presence in a hybrid and multi cloud fashion for those cloud architects. What are the things that you like to see them doing? More of that relates to your value problems. In other words, if they're using containers or they're using micro services, is this good or bad? What? What you should enterprise to be working on that ties into your value proposition. >> So I think about this the other way around, actually, if I can kind of turn that turn that question. But on his head, I think what you know, enterprises, you know, organization C, S. P s. I think what they should be doing is focusing on their business and what their business needs. They shouldn't be looking at their infrastructure architecture and saying, you know, okay, how can we, you know, build all these pieces? And then you know what can the business and do on top of that infrastructure? You wanna look at it the other way around? I need to deploy applications rapidly. I need to innovate those applications. I need to, you know, upgrade, change whatever you need to do with those applications. And I need an infrastructure that can be responsive. I need an infrastructure that can be hybrid. I need infrastructure that can be, you know, orchestrated in the hybrid manner on DH. Therefore, I want to go and look for the building blocks out there of those those architectural and infrastructure building blocks out there that can service that application in the most appropriate way to enable the velocity of my business and the innovation from my business. Because at the end of the day, I mean, you know, when we talk to customers, the most important thing T customers, you know, is the velocity of their business. It is keeping ahead in the highly competitive environment and staying so far ahead that you're not going to be disrupted. And, you know, if any element of your infrastructure is holding you back and even you know, you know the most mild way it's a problem. It's something you should address. And we now have the capability to do that for, you know, for many, many years. In fact, you know, I would claim up to today without snap route that you know, you you do not have the ability to remove the network problem. The network is always going to be a boat anchor on your business. It introduces extra cycles. It introduces big security, of underplaying >> the problems of the network and the consequences that prior to snap her out that you guys saw. >> So I take the security issue right? I mean, everybody is very concerned about security today. One of the biggest attack vectors in the security world world today is the infrastructure. It's it's it's so vulnerable. A lot of infrastructure is is built on sort of proprietary software and operating systems. You know, it's very complex. There's a lot of, you know, operations, operational, moves out and change it. So there's there's a lot of opportunity for mistakes to be made. There's a lot of opportunity for, you know, for vulnerabilities to be exposed. And so what you want to do is you want to reduce the threat surface of, you know, your your infrastructure. So one of the things that we can do it SnapRoute that was never possible before is when you look at a traditional network operating system. Andreas, A traditional. I mean, any operating system is out there, other you know, Other >> than our own. >> It's basically a monolithic Lennox blob. It is one blob of code that contains all of the features. And it could be, you know, architect in in a way that it Sze chopped up nicely. But if you're not using certain features, they're still there. And that increases the threat surface with our sat proud plant native network operating system. Because it is a micro services are key picture. If you are not using certain services or features, you can destroy and remove the containers that contain those features and reduce the threat surface of the operating system. And then beyond that, if you do become aware ofthe vulnerability or a threat that you know is somewhere in there, you can replace it in seconds on the fly without taking the infrastructure. Damn, without having to completely replace that whole blob of software causing, you know, an outage window. So that's just one example of, you know, the things we can do. But even when it comes to simple things, like, you know, adding in new services or things because we're containerized service is a ll boot together. It's no, eh? You know it doesn't. It doesn't have a one after the other. It it's all in parallel. So you know this this operating system comes up faster. It's more reliable. It eliminates the risk factors, the security, you know, the issues that you have. It provides native automation capabilities. It natively integrates with, You know, your Dev Ops tool chain. It brings networking into the cloud. Native >> really, really isn't in frustrations. Code is an operating system, so it sounds like your solution is a cloud native operating system. That's correct. That's pretty much the solution. That's it. How do customers engage with you guys? And what do you say? That cloud architect this is Don't tell me what to do. What's the playbook, right? How you guys advice? Because I see this is a new solution. Talk about the solution and your recommendation to architects as they start thinking about building that elastic in that flexible environment. >> Yeah. I mean, I think you know, Ah, big recommendation is, you know, is to embrace, you know, that all the all of the cloud native principles and most of the companies that were talking to, you know, definitely doing that and moving very quickly. But, you know, my recommendation. You know, engaging with us is you should be looking for the network to in naval, your your goals and your you know your applications rather than limiting. I mean, that's that's the big difference that, you know, the people who really see the value in what we do recognize that, you know, the network should be Andi is an asset. It should be enabling new innovation, new capabilities in the business rather than looking at the network as necessary evil where we you know, where we have to get over its limitations or it's holding us back. And so, you know, for any organization that is, you know, is looking at deploying, you know, new switching infrastructure in any way, shape or form. I think, you know, you should be looking at Well, how am I going to integrate this into a dev ops? You know, world, how may going to integrate this into a cloud native world. So as my business moves forward, I'm actually servicing the application in enabling a faster time to service for the application for the business. At the end of the day, that's that's everybody's going, >> you know, we've been seeing in reporting this consistently, and it's even more mainstream now that cloud computing has opened up the aperture of the value and the economics and also the technical innovation around application developers coding faster having the kind of resource is. But it also created a CZ creating a renaissance and networking. So the value of networking and application development that collision is coming together very quickly. So the intersection you guys play. So I'm sure this will resonate well with customers Will as they try to figure out the role the network because against security number one analytics all the things that go into what Sadiq they care about share data, shared coat all this is kind of coming together. So if someone hears this story, they'll go, OK, love this snap around store. I gotta I gotta dig in. How do they engage you? What do you guys sell to them? What's the pitch? Give the quick plug for the company real >> quick. Engaging with us is, you know, is a simple issue. No, come to www snapper out dot com. And you know, you know contacts are up there. You know, we were currently obviously we're a small company. We sell direct, more engaged with, you know, our first customers and deploying our product, you know, right now, and it's going very, very well, and, you know, it's a PSE faras. You know how you know what and when to engage us. I would say you can engage us at any stage and and value whether or not your architect ing a whole new network deploying a new data center. Obviously. Which is, you know, it is an ideal is built from the ground up, but we add value to the >> data center preexisting data saying that wants >> the modernizing data centers. I mean, very want >> to modernize my data center, my candidate. >> So one of the biggest challenges in an existing data center in when one of the biggest areas of tension is at the top of rack switch the top of racks, which is where you connect in your you know, your your application assets, your servers are connected. You're connecting into the into the, you know, first leap into the network. One of the challenges there is. You know, Dev ops engineers, They want Teo, you know, deploy containers. They want to deploy virtual machines they wantto and stuff move stuff, change stuff and they need network engineers to help them to do that. For a network engineer, the least interesting part of the infrastructure is the top Arax. Which it is a constant barrage day in, day, out of request. Hey, can I have a villain? Can have an i p address. Can we move this? And it's not interesting. It just chews up time we alleviate that tension. What we enable you to do is network engineer can you know, deploy the network, get it up and running, and then control what needs to be controlled natively from their box from debits tool chains and allow the devil ups engineers to take control as infrastructure. So the >> Taelon is taking the stress out of the top of racks. Wedge, take the drama out of this. >> Take that arm around the network. Right. >> So okay, you have the soul from a customer. What am I buying? What do you guys offering? Is that a professional services package? Is it software? Is it a sad solution? Itself is the product. >> It is software, you know. We are. We're selling a network operating system. It lands on, you know, bare metal. He liked white box switching. Ah, nde. We offer that as both perpetual licenses or as a subscription. We also office, um, you know, the value and services around that as well. You know, Andre, right now that is, you know, that is our approach to market. You know, we may expand that, you know, two other services in the future, but that is what we're selling right now. It is a network operating >> system down. Thanks for coming and sharing this story of SnapRoute. Final question for you is you've been in this century. While we've had many conversations we'd love to talk about gear, speeds and feeds. I'll see softwares eating. The world was seeing that we're seeing cloud create massive amounts. Opportunity. You're in a big wave, right? What is this wave look like for the next couple of years? How do you see this? Playing out as Cloud continues to go global and you start to Seymour networking becoming much more innovative. Part of the equation with Mohr developers coming onboard. Faster, more scale. How do you see? It's all playing out in the industry. >> Yeah. So I think the next sort of, you know, big wave of things is really around the operational. But I mean, we've we've we've concentrated for many years in the networking industry on speeds and feeds. And then it was, you know, it's all about protocols and you know how protocol stacks of building stuff. That's all noise. It's really about How do you engage with the network? How do you how do you operate your network to service your business? Quite frankly, you know, you should not even know the network is there. If we're doing a really good job of network, you shouldn't even know about it. And that's where we need to get to is an industry. And you know that's that's my belief is where, where we can take >> it. Low latent. See programmable networks. Great stuff. SnapRoute Dominic. While no one is dominant industry friend of the Cube also keep alumni CEO of Snapper Out. Hot new start up with some big backers. Interesting signal. Programmable networks software Cloud Global all kind of big Party innovation equation. Here in Silicon Valley, I'm showing for with cube conversations. Thanks for watching

>> From the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas, It's theCUBE, covering HoshoCon 2018. Brought to you by Hosho. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We're here for CUBE's live coverage here in Las Vegas for HoshoCon. This is the first industry conference where the smartest people in security are together talking about blockchain security. That's all they're talking about here. It's a bridge between multiple diverse communities from developers, white hat hackers, technologist, the business people all kind of coming together. This is theCUBE's coverage, I'm John, for our next guest Anand Prakash, who's the founder for AppSecure. He's also the number one bounty hunter in the world. He's hacked everything you could think of; exchanges, crypto exchanges, Facebook, Twitter, Uber. Welcome to theCUBE, thanks for joining me. >> Uh, thank you John. >> So, you've hacked a lot of people, so let's, before we get started, who have you hacked? You've hacked an exchange. >> Yeah. >> Exchanges plural? >> Most of the exchanges. >> Mostly the exchanges? >> Yeah, ICOs. >> ICOs? >> Yeah, and bunch of other MNCs. >> Twitter, Facebook? >> Twitter, Uber, Facebook, and then Tinder. Yeah. >> A lot. >> Yeah, a lot. I cannot say the name. >> You're the number one bounty hunter. Just to clarify you're a white hat hacker, which means you go out and you do a service for companies. And it's well known that Facebook has put bounties out there. So, you take them up on their offer, or-- >> Yeah, so basically companies say us, hack us, and we'll pay you. So, we go and try to hack their systems, and say this is how we are able to discover a vulnerability, and this is how it can be exploited against your users to steal data, to hack your systems. And then they basically say, this is how much we are going to pay you for this exploit. How did you get into this, how did you get started? >> So, it started with a simple Phishing hack in 2008. It was an Orkut phishing hack, and one of my friend telling me to hack his Orkut account. And I Googled, how to hack Orkut account, and I wasn't having any technical knowledge at that point of time. No coding, no knowledge, nothing. I just Googled it and found ten steps, and I followed that ten steps. Created a fake page, I sent it to my friend, and he basically clicked on it, and there it is, username and password. (laughs) >> He fell for the trap >> Definitely, >> right away. >> Yeah. >> So, quick Google kiddie script kind of thing going on there, which is cool. Okay, now you're doing it full-time, and it's interesting here, this is the top security conference. Those are big names up there, Andreas was giving keynote. But I was fascinated by your two discussion panels, or sessions. Yesterday you talked about hacking an exchange, and today it was about how to hack Facebook, Twitter, these guys as part of the bounties. This is fascinating because everyone's getting hacked. I mean you see the numbers. >> Yeah. >> I mean, half a billion dollars, 60 million here, 10 million. So, people are vulnerable and it's pretty easy. So, first question for you is how easy is it these days and how hard is it to protect yourself? >> So, the attacks, the technologies, and then attacks are getting more sophisticated, and hackers are trying newer and newer exploits. So, it's good for companies and descryptpexion just to employ ethical hackers, white hat hackers, and moodapentas, and bunch of other stuff to secure their assets. So, it's, you wouldn't say for companies not doing security, then it's very easy for someone like us to hack their systems, but there were companies doing Golden Security. They are already have an internal security team, external folks securing their systems, then it's difficult. But, it's not that difficult. Let's talk about your talk yesterday about the exchange. Take us through what you talked about there that got some rave reviews. How did you attack the exchange? What did you learn? Take us through some of the exchanges you hacked and how, and why the outcome? >> Yeah, so, we have been auditing bunch of ISOs and exchanges from past two months, and quite a good number. So, what we see is most of them, don't have security, basic security text in place. So I can log into anyone's account. They have a password screen on the UA, but I can simply type it in without, without no indication or alteration, I can just log into anyone's account, and then I can get fund's out of their system. Very similar to, one issue which we found in talk in sale, was we were able to see PIA information of all the users. All the passwords details and everything, who has done KYC. So, there are lot of information disclosures in the API. And the main thing which we hackers do is we try to test this systems manually instead of going more into an automated kind of approach, running some scanner to figure out sets of hues. So, scanners are, sorry. Scanners are obviously good, but they're not that much good in finding out all the logical loopholes. >> So, you manually go in there, brute force, kind of thing? >> Yeah, not exactly, not that brute forcing, >> Not brute force. >> but of our own ways of doing things, and there are lot of good bounty hunters or white hat hackers, who are better than me and who are doing things. So, it becomes more and more sophisticated. We don't know when you get hacked. >> So, when the bounties are out there, does Facebook just say, hey, go to town? Or they give you specific guidance, so, you just, they say go at us? What do you do? >> Yeah, so basically the publicist sends some kind of legal documentation around it, and some kind of scoping on the top targets to hack. And then, they basically publish their reward size, and everything, and the policy and everything around. And then we just go through it. We try to hack it and then we report it to their team, via channel, and then they fix it, and then they come back to us saying, this is how we fixed it and this is what the impact was, and this is how much we're going to pay you. >> And then they just they pay you. >> Yeah, my yesterday's talk was mainly focused on hacking these ICOs, and descryptpexion in the past. Some of the case studies which we have done in the past, and obviously we can't disclose customer names, but we directed some of the information, and showed them how we helped them. >> What should ICO's learn, what should exchanges learn from your experience? What's the walkaway for them? Besides being focused on security. What specifically do you share? >> Yeah, so to be very frank, I know few of the companies and bunch of companies who don't appreciate white hat hackers at all. So, these are ICOs and crypexinges. So, the first and foremost thing they should do is, if they are not having any internal, external, if they are having any internal security team right now, then they should go further back down the program to make sure people like us, or people like other white hat hackers, go and hack their systems and tell them ethically. >> How does a bounty, how does someone set that up? >> So, uh-- >> Have you helped people do that? >> Yeah, so, our company does that. We help them setting up a bug bounty program from scratch, and we manage it by our typewriting platforms, and we invite private, and we do it privately, and we invite ethical hackers to hack into their systems ethically. And then we do have arguments with bunch of them, and that's how they're going to secure. >> So, how does that work, they call you up on the phone? Or they send you an email? They send you a telegram? How do they get in touch with, the website? They do face-to-face with you? They have to do it electronically? What's the process? >> For the bounty hunting? >> Yeah, for setting up a bounty program. >> Yeah, for setting up a bounty program with our company, we basically get on Skype call with them, we explain them what is going to be their budget and everything. How good their security team is, and if they are not having any internal security team, what I know, then we never suggest them going for the bounty program because they may end up paying huge amount of money. (John laughs) So, then we basically sell our pen testing services to them, and say, this is, you should go out for a pen testing service first, and then you should go for a bounty program. >> Because they could be paying way too much in bounties. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, 'cause they don't know what their exposure is. So, you do some advisory, consulting, get them set up, help them scale up their security practice basically. >> Yes, yes, yes. Their entire security team. >> So what was the questions at the sessions? What were some of the things the audience was asking you? Did any good questions come out that you were surprised by, or you expected? >> No, so, all of, so, for the very first talk, about the hacking the crypexion and all, all of them were surprised. They thought putting up a two-factor authentication, or something like that, makes their account secure. But it's not like that. (both laughing) We hack on the APIs. So, it's very, very, very super easy for us most of the time. >> So, the APIs are where the vulnerabilities are? >> Yeah. >> Mainly. >> The APIs, the URLs. >> Yeah. So, you guys use cloud computing at all? Do you use extra resource? I saw a bunch of stories out there about quantum computers, and that makes things better on the encryption side. What's your thoughts on all that, and hubbub? >> Yeah, so mainly we use anomaly intercepting proxy to intercept these calls, which are going on a straight to PS outputting, out of our own SSLP, 'cause the safety we get, and then trusting it. So, we try to plane to the APIs and them doing stuff. We don't need a big, high-end machine to hack into services. >> Gotcha, so you're dealing with them in the wire transmission. So, what do you, tell me about the conference here, what of some of the hallway conversations you've had? What's your observation? The folks that could not make it here, what's it like? What's the vibe like? What's it like here? >> So, they missed lot of things. (both laughing) And um, it was first Blockchain Security Conference, and I've been flying from all over doing the art, to just attend this conference. I was here one month back for Defcon and Black Hat, and for some other hacking event. >> So, you wanted to come here? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I meet a lot of cool people here. I met so many great people. >> I planned it out even before Defcon Black Hat. (laughs) >> Okay, go 'head. >> I had to go to Hosho. (giggles) >> I think this is an important event 'cause I think it's like a new kind of black hat. Because it's a new culture, new architecture. Blockchain's super important, there's a lot of interest. And there's a lot of immature companies out there that are building fast, and they need to ramp up. And they're getting ICO money, which is like going public, so, it's like being grown-up before you're grown-up. And you got to get there faster. And I mean, that seems to be, do you agree with that? >> Um, yeah, definitely so. A lot of people love putting money into ICOs then what if they go tag, then people don't know about security that much, so, it's a big-- >> So, what are you excited about? Stepping back from the bounty hunter that you are, as you look at the tech industry, security, and blockchain in general, what are you most excited about? What are you working on? >> So, frankly saying, so, I'm looking forward to hack, articulately hack more and more exchanges, and uh, I believe none of them should die the legal tag, but, that's where most of the money is going to be in the future. So, that's the most interesting thing. Blockchain security is the most-- >> Yeah, that's where the money is. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> The modern day bank robbery. It's happening. Global, modern, bank robbery. (Anand laughs) Andreas is right, by the way. (Anand giggles) He talked about that today. It's not like the old machine gun, give me the teller way. Give me your cash drawer, on, it's-- >> That was a very nice talk. >> It's other people from other banks with licenses. >> Yup. >> The new bank robbers. Well, thanks for coming on theCUBE, sharing your story, appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Great to have you on. >> Thank you for inviting me. >> You're a real big celebrity in the space, and your work's awesome, and love the fact that you're ethically hacking. >> Yeah, by the way, I'm not the world's number one bounty hunter. I'm just-- >> Number two. >> Not number two, maybe, there are lot people out there. >> You're up there. >> I'm just learning and-- >> We could do a whole special or a Netflix series on the bounty hunting. >> Yeah, yeah. (laughs) >> And follow you around. (both laughing) And now, thanks for coming out, appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Good to see you. >> Good to see-- >> All right. More CUBE coverage after this short break, stay with us. Here, live, in HoshoCon. First security conference around Blockchain. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)

from the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas it's the cube recovering no joke on 2018 brought to you by Osho okay welcome back everyone we're here live here at hosts show con in Las Vegas the first security conference for blockchain its inaugural event and we're here with Gabriel Shepherd VP of strategy at Global Strike for host show they're the hosts of the event although it's an industry conference for the entire community all coming together Gabriel thanks for coming on and spend the time yeah thanks for having me thanks for you know supporting the event and we appreciate your team coming out and covering what we're trying to build here well we think it's super important now so you guys are doing a great service for the industry and stepping up and put in the event together and so props to you guys thank you this is not a hosts show sales like conference you guys aren't selling anything you're doing the service for the community so props to you guys in the team great stuff and we know this is a kernel of all the smartest people and its really an industry event so it shows in the session so appreciate that yes we think it's important because you know we see a lot of trends the queue has a unique advantage in how we cover hundreds of events and yeah so we get to go we see a horizontal observation space from the industry and when you have formation like this with the community this is important you guys have up leveled the conversation focused the conversation around blockchain where security is the top-level conversation that's it no I feel pitches right so for the folks watch and this is really one of those events where it's not a huge number of people here like the thousands and thousands of other blockchain shows that make money off events this is about community and around getting the conversations and having substantive conversations so great job so for the folks watching the content agenda is super awesome host show con-com you go browse it but give us some color commentary on some of the types of speakers here the diversity yeah I think I think the first thing that we wanted to accomplish was with Hojo Khan was we we wanted to put front and center the conversations that were not taking place at other events there are plenty of platforms and opportunities for companies early-stage companies to go pitch there are other great conference organizers that do events and have their own wheelhouse but what we wanted to do was put together a conference that was focused around a type of conference that we ourselves would want to attend as a cybersecurity firm and you know after traveling the world I mean you know you you and artesia spoke many times and hosho has sponsored quite a few events around the world after attending by the end of 2018 will attended something like a hundred plus events in some capacity and so it was clear to us early on that companies weren't our conferences weren't going to focus on security or at least put them on the main stage where I believed that they should be at least with all the hacks happening so what we wanted to do was bring together thought leadership with respect to security technical leadership with respect to developers and security engineers and we wanted to bridge those two what I mean by that is we wanted thought leadership that could get executives to start the non-technical people so start thinking about security in the larger format and how it's applicable to their company but what we also wanted to do is we wanted to connect these non-technical people with the technical people in an intimate setting where they could learn think about the brain power that we have in this hotel for hosho Khan you've got the minds of Andre Assante innopolis Diego's LDR of RSK Michael berkland of shape-shift josub Kuan of hosho we've got Ron stone from c4 you've got an on Prakash a world-class white hat bug bounty hunter consider what he's top-5 bug bounty hunter for our top top bug bounty hunter for Facebook five years in a row the the level of the calibre of technical talent in this building has the potential to solve problems that Enterprise has been trying to solve individually for years but those conversations don't take place in earnest with the non-technical people and so the idea behind hoshikawa was to bridge those to provide education that's what we're doing things like workshops sure we have keynotes and panels but we also have the ability to teach non-technical people how to enable two-factor authentication how to set up PGP for your email how to set up your hardware wallet these things aren't these conversations are not the bridge is a clearly established we interview people from on the compliance side all the way down to custodial services which again the diversity is not a group think events just giving them more props here because I think you guys did a great job worthy of promotion because you not only bridge the communities together you're bringing people in cross functionally colonizing and the asset test for me is simple the groupthink event is when everyone's kind of rah rah each other I know this conditions we got Andre is saying hey if you put database substitute database for blockchain and it reads well it's not a real revolutionary thing and oh all you custodian services you're screwed I mean so you have perspectives on both side that's right and there's contentious conversation that's right and that to me proves it and as well as the sessions are highly attended or we don't want it we don't want a panel of everybody in agreeance because we know that's not reality i mean that you you bring up the issue of curse of custody a prime example is we had a great talk a four-person panel led by Joe Kelly who's the CEO of Unchained Capital he had a panel with traditional equities custodian Paul pooi from edge wallet Joseph Kwon is the CEO of hosho and there was clear differences of opinion with respect to custody and it got a little contentious but isn't that the point yeah it's to have these conversations in earnest and let's put them out in the public on what's right and what's wrong for the community and let the community to decide the best way forward that's the best is exactly what you want to do I gotta ask you what are the big surprises for you what have you learned what's the big reveal for you that you've super surprised you or are things you expected what were some of the things that went on here yeah I think the biggest surprise to me was the positive feedback that we received you know I understand that we know people maybe looked at how shock on year one and said hosho like they're a cybersecurity firm what are they doing running a conference right but my background is a you know I've produced conferences I have a former employee of South by Southwest I believe a big an experience and so when we started to put this together we thought we knew we would make mistakes and we certainly made mistakes with respect to programming and schedule and just things that we had didn't think about attention to detail but we had plans far in that the mistakes were mitigated that they weren't exposed to the public right there behind the scenes fires that kind like a wedding or a party but no one actually really notices sure we put them out behind the scenes nobody that the our guests don't notice and that was my biggest concern I'm pleasantly surprised at the positive feedback we've yet to get any negative feedback publicly on Twitter telegram anecdotally individually people now they made just being nice to my face but I feel good about what the response that we've got it's been good vibes here so I gotta ask you well sure the DJ's were great last night good experience yeah experience and knowledge and and networking has been a theme to correct I lost him the networking dynamics I saw a lot of people I had I had ran to some people I met for the first time we've had great outreach that with the queue was integrated in people very friendly talked about the networking and that's been going on here yeah I mean this panels are great I'd love to hear from from panels and solo presentations but a lot of work gets done in the hallways and we have a saying in the conference business hallway hustlers right the ones that are hustling in the hallways are those early stage entrepreneurs or trying to close deals trying to figure out how to get in front of the right person serendipitously are at the bar at the same time as somebody they want to meet that is to me conference 101 that is the stuff I grew up on and so we wanted to make sure that we were encouraging those interactions through traffic flow so you'll notice that they're strategically the content rooms are strategically placed so that when you're changing rooms people are forced to cross interact with each other because they're forced to bump into each other and if you look at the programming we purposefully to our demise to be honest year one put a lot of programming that was conflicted with each other we made people make a decision about what talk they wanted to go to because there were two really compelling people at the same time or 10 minutes off yeah and so you had to make a decision vote with your feet you got to vote with your feet and and and from a conference perspective we call that FOMO right we want our guests to FOMO not because we want them to miss a particular talk but because we want them to be so overwhelmed with content and opportunity with networking that they when they walk away they've had a good experience they're fulfilled but they they think I got to go back here too because that thing I missed I'm not gonna miss this yeah we will point out to you guys made a good call on film all the session everything so everything's gonna be online we'll help guys do that yep so the video is gonna be available for everyone to look on demand you also had some good broadcast here we had a couple shows the cubes been here your mobile mention the DJs yeah yeah so good stuff so okay hallway conversations our lobby con as we call it when people hang up a lot on it's always good hallway con so what Gabriel in your mind as you walked around what was some of the hallway culture that you overheard and and that you thought were interesting and what hall would cartridges were you personally involved in the personal conversations I was involved with is why isn't somebody not this station why someone not Gardens but I will tell you i from what I heard from from conference attendees the conversations that I heard taking place were and I hope Jonathan doesn't mind but Jonathan Nelson from hack fund spoke on our main stage and I hope he doesn't mind me speaking out of turn but he came to me said this is one of the best run blockchain conferences I've ever been to and to have somebody like Jonathan say that who has done hundreds of talks and thousands was really meaningful but but what was more important is to talk to him and him feel comfortable enough to sit down with me and just talk generally that's the vibe we want for every attendant we want you to feel comfortable meeting with people in the hallway who you've never met and be vulnerable from a security perspective you know Michael Turpin for example sitting down and talking proactively about being the AT&T hack great these are opportunities for people to really talk about what's happened and be vulnerable and have the opportunity to educate us all how to get better as an industry you know the other thing I want to get your thoughts on is obviously the program's been phenomenal in the content side thank you but community is really important to us we're of a community model to q you guys care about the community aspect of this and as a real event you want to have an ongoing year after year and hopefully it'll get bigger I think it will basically our results we're seeing talk about the community impact because what you're really talking about there is community that's right well I mean Vegas we talk about there's multiple communities right regionally post-show is a Vegas based company we're born here we close I think forty some employees all based here in Las Vegas which is our home so the first thing that we did with respect to community as we created a local local price if you're a Nevada resident we didn't want you to have to invest a significant amount of money to come to something in your own town the second thing we did is we've invited the local Vegas Bitcoin meet up in aetherium meet ups to come and partake and not only participate but contribute to the content and opening day in fact there was so much influx of people from those meetups it wasn't official it wasn't like a program where we had actually a VTEC set up I thought I was gonna be like a meet-up there were so many people that attended we had to on the fly provide AV because we were overwhelmed with the amount of people that showed up so that's a regional community but with respect to the community from blockchain community what we wanted to do is make sure we brought people of all ethnicities all countries we have 26 countries represented in the first blockchain security conference and you had some big-name celebrities here yeah Neil Kittleson Max Keiser you go mama Anan Prakash Yakov Prensky a layer from your side pop popcorn kochenko has some big names yeah I'll see andreas yes here keynoting yeah I'm Michel parkland andreas Diego Zaldivar I mean these lena katina Viren OVA I mean these are big names yeah these big names okay what so so what's your takeaway of you as you know my takeaway is that there's a there's a yearning for this type of event my takeaway is that we're doing something right we have the luxury as hosho and that we're not an events company people think that might be a disadvantage to run a confident you're not a cotton vent company I think it's an advantage yeah because it holds my feet to the fire yeah much closer than an event organiser who doesn't have a company reputation and brand to protect hosho as you know has a good brand in the cybersecurity world with respect to blockchain we don't have the luxury of throwing a poor event giving you a bad experience because that would tarnish house of but also your in the community so you're gonna have direct feedback that's right the other thing too I will say I'm gonna go to a lot of events and there are people who are in the business of doing events and they have a profit motive that's right so they'll know lanyards are all monetize everything is monetized yeah and that sometimes takes away from the community aspect correct and I think you guys did a good job of you know not being profligate on the events you want to yeah a little bit of cash but you didn't / yeah / focus on money-making finding people right for the cash you really needed about the content yeah and the experience for and with the community and I think that's a formula that people want yeah I would like to see the model I would like to see the model changed over time if I'm being honest a majority of crypto conferences today are paid to play so a lot of the content you're getting this sponsored so I'm okay with that but I think it should be delineated between con disclose your disclosure you don't want water down the country but but the conference circuit and crypto is not ready for that it hasn't rest in my opinion hasn't reached that level of maturation yet like I told you I I'm a former South by Southwest guy that like my belief is you create the content and the sponsors will come I don't I don't begrudge conference organizers for for for sponsoring out events because they're really really expensive a cost per attend to manage demand to this hype out there yeah hundreds of dollars per attendee I get it I understand why they do it but what I would like to see is the model change over time whereas as we get more sophisticated as a technology space we should also grow as a vent and conference circuit as well what I mean by that is let's change the model that eventually someday it's free for all attendees to come and those conferences and the costs associated with them are subsidized by companies that want access to the people that are tending them it sounds like an upstream open source project sure how open source became so popular you don't screw with the upstream yep but you have downstream opportunities so if you create a nice upstream model yep that's the cube philosophy as well we totally agree with you and I think you guys are onto something pioneering with the event I think you're motivated to do it the community needs it yeah I think that's ultimately the self governing aspect of it I think you're off to something really good co-creation yeah I'll see we believe in that and the results speak for themselves congratulations thank you so much I appreciate you guys coming here and investing your time and I hope that all our staff has been accommodated and the hard rock is treated you well you guys been great very friendly but I think again you know outside of you guys is a great company and great brand and you guys and speaks for itself and the results this is an important event I agreed because of the timing because of this focus its crypto its crypto revolution its cybersecurity and FinTech all kind of coming together through huge global demand I mean we haven't gotten into IOT and supply chain yeah all the hacks going on with China and these things being reported this is serious business is a lot on the line a lot and you guys having a clear focus on that is really a service business Thank You staff doing it alright our cube coverage here in Las Vegas for host Joe Kahn this is the first conference of its kind where security is front and center it is the conference for security and blockchain bringing the worlds together building the bridges and building the community bridges as well we love that that's our belief as well as the cube coverage here in Vegas tigress more after this short break

from the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas it's the cube covering no joke on 2018 brought to you by osho everyone welcome back to our live coverage here in Las Vegas for Osho Khan's first industry security conference dedicated to security in the blockchain it's presented by ho show and also the industry it's an industry conference it's not necessarily a host show cause I'm John Ford's the cue for our coverage our next guest is Kenzie Crone and vice president of business development prime trust welcome to the cube thanks for joining us thanks for having me here so crowdsourcing and crowdfunding all this has been a big part of it I mean terrorists are funding through Bitcoin you've got all kinds of things going on in entrepreneurial spaces so it's clearly the money's flowing with with with crypto what do you guys do if we're getting into some of the things that we want to talk about what is prime trust to take a minute to explain your business business model value proposition absolutely so prime trust is a trust company so it's a regulated financial institution that holds funds between transactions between businesses you could also use prime trust to created a trust account for an individual as well so what our value is in this industry is that we hold crypto assets which very few qualified custodians like us exist to do that so that's a really important part of bringing in institutional funding because institutions are looking for qualified custodians as a regulated place to keep funds and they want to get into crypto so it's a it's a very important part of the puzzle so custody and custodial service has been a big topic here at O joke on controversial on the keynotes as well because you know the purists will say hey like Andreas why don't we need custody if it's working it's just it's the same old guard with new faces new business cards it's not really revolutionary and that's on one answer on the other inspection is there's so much growth in activity we've got a trusted partners to actually help us manage the risk and do these things so you have again two spectrums what's the story what should people understand about these two dynamics well what I think yeah what I think the key note you're talking about the the idea is we are just trading one type of banker for another type of banker right that's happening anyway so you are you're trading one type of financial system for another type of financial system the question is what does that look like and how can we be secure and safe in that space right personally I'm a big fan of anything that requires some kind of a license right and it's not because I think it's really fun to go through the bureaucratic process of getting a license or filling out paperwork but it's really because that once you have a license that license can be taken away from you if you misbehave right and that's really important so if you're following the laws that are set forth that are designed to protect people and then you break those laws then you're not you're not allowed to do that anymore right so that's what you get out of having regulation involved in this space is its protection and it's making sure that they're really by the way the regulation is happening anyway so that's another the regulation is happening anyway and that's why these very smart people who are managing billions of dollars are looking for that they're not saying oh cool you have a website that with technology that I don't understand you're telling me that you can safely hold something but there's no other protection there there's no liability you could just mount GOx me right and so there's got to be a way to get some sort of some sort of regulation in there and I know there's a lot of opinions in the space and obviously I'm very much on the side of regulation yeah and it also made some balance within the day those are polarized positions but I think the industry recognizes growth by recognizing the domicile problem of companies and governments so the question is you know really than a licenses legitimacy is people want legitimacy trust and growth yes at the same time but the other side says is hey you know who are those people making the laws so who's taking what away so again this is the ecosystem will solve these problems in my opinion and I believe that you know as much as I love the purist view and I think this architectural technical things that make that happen the end of the day is the self-governance of the community really is is what me happen here and so that's where the growth comes in because if real money is coming in to the sector you got to have parties that are trusted it's my opinion all right so what do you think about the conference here what's your take away so far I'll see its kind of diverse background you got you know people walking around with colorful costumes too you know buttoned up bankers and FBI agents and NSA agency folks yes we're in a really funny time in this space I think because you still have yet the Bitcoin garb and the like you know the flashing glasses and and then you've got people who spent 20 years on Wall Street and now they're in the space so I've seen that actually a lot lately in the last year at these conferences and it's very interesting I love when both sides can come in with an open mind to the other because you think there's something to be learned on both sides absolutely it's so for the people who have been in the traditional regulated space they are getting all this inspiration and the possibility of doing things differently the system that the financial system that we have now is one it's essentially you know a very old house that's just been added on to and built and there's corridors going into stairways that you know don't go anywhere right and that's that's something that needs to be fixed and and it is being fixed well Security's a driver in all this and I think one of the things I've observed you'd love to get your reaction to is you have the crypto world that's certainly changing a lot of in dynamics on the global scale you have a cyber security and then you have fin tech so you guys this is where everything I think is a melting pot which is interesting you have all these things happening but at the center of all this is security absolutely it's almost like we're all swimming out to the to the raft and whoever gets there first and wins a security model wins at all well I thought I think well I think this the conversations all threads through security so the cyber conversations we've had are like okay Cyrus security for individuals and nation-states crypto currency for protection and freedom and and you know in immutability Ledger's almost great supply-chain aspects and then you get the FinTech which is like hey people want to do business so you have the entire changeover on the financial services side all kind of happening yeah yeah I think that they're all gonna be contributing to a solution it's it's each one is going to learn we're really open-minded at prime trust we want to build and grow we know that this we're in the most embryonic stage of this and so we don't know exactly what's gonna come next or what's going to be down the road and we want to be informed by everybody that's around us at a place that makes sense do you have to work with with the industries so take me through I want to ask you a question about your job so we'll take me through the day in the life of what's going on in prime chess what are some of the things that you guys do customers and what are they asking for what's like what's the some of the issues you guys are solving what did some of the dynamics can you share some color around that sure so our main services are so we are a trust company so we do escrow services and we do compliance on all of the escrow that comes through our ICS and stos that come through so that's a ml and kyc that's really important what distinguishes us I think is a real a real game changer for our customers is that we're really a technology company and we have API stocks that allow for companies to build their businesses on top of integration so that they have customers coming in and making accounts on their their their website their dashboard their platform and that's all feeding directly and they're actually making an account so you're building your you're targeting folks saying hey we'll take care of the heavy lifting on kyc ma ml and all the stuff that needs to happens that's heavy lifting that's around DoDEA services custodial service all comes through you yes so it comes in we can hold it we can review it you're not having asset managers also holding funds which is a problem so you're not needing to touch the funds at all you can just you can just do you at you're trying to do in this space and we'll take care of that aspect that's entrepreneurial side that's the stos and the IC knows what's the alternative for the your customer build their own go with unknown shop of their other so what so if I if it's a great service sounds like a great service and takes a lot of pressure off the build out of a opportunity what's the alternative if someone doesn't go with you well there's a few I mean it's to hold your own funds right figure that out on your own in the case of many different types of funds and businesses their boards are not okay with that because it's it's too much risk and liability so in many cases the alternative is don't do it yet just keep watching and waiting and wanting to be in crypto but you can't yet so and when we're seeing that a lot that there's like a sigh of relief when we finally have this conversation and it turns out it's extremely easy to make an account with us and suddenly that major roadblock is just gone so that's what that's the career opportunity takes the risk off the table little bit and accelerates the opportunity when the sec bomb decrypt yesterday was reporting that the sec in the united states is actually going into IC OS and having them return their money because of of course they are like well of course they are that makes sense that's they were always going to do that just because they make a statement and slowly decide how to act because look last july is when they said we're going to do this and most of the crypto community said you can't because we really don't want you to and we are gonna tell ourselves all these excuses for why it's not possible for the US government to actually pursue this and why they won't really do it because they're dinosaurs and that's just not how the government works so the way the government does work is that they everything takes a long time and it's all thought through and there are a million different approval processes within the system and they don't tell you anything until they're really ready to stand by whatever same and they make so they leave you in the dark for eight months a year whatever well you guys have a good opportunity so I had to ask the question what's the business model how does someone engage with you guys sounds likely to go in and create an account is there a fee involved what's the fee can you share the engagement that somewhere would would engage with you young sure so they can visit our website which is prime trust com they can email me at Kinsey at prime trust pretty easy and we have different pricing for escort services versus custodial services and we actually pay interest on any Fiat that we held in custody and we charge a monthly basis point fee based on how much is in in custody with us and where's you guys located was the company located headquarters this here in Nevada in Las Vegas I'm based out of Los Angeles we've got some team members in San Francisco in New York as well that's awesome so it's a question how did you get into the space what's your story I got into the space I started out an equity crowdfunding so I was working with companies that were raising capital under A+ reg D and reg CF and I was in the trenches with them figuring out from like the very earliest days how what the laws were gonna look like you know launching companies the day the regulations came out barking into effect and then sort of working through that so it's been an adventure on that side and then my first experience in crypto was at an at a meet up in Santa Monica where companies were talking about raising 40 million dollars in ten seconds and that and they were also pitching in methods like I knew were not legal so it was it's kind of just dropping to me well one was how did you manage to get that many people to want to invest in you so quickly because it's a struggle for for many companies and then so that's amazing I want to learn more about that and then also did you know that there's a more legal way to do this and that you're putting yourself at a lot of risk so that made me really want to jump in and figure this out so you got totally intoxicated by the Wild West yeah there's a problem they gotta be solved in there it's kind of fun at the same time because you know all those those days are over thankfully so because you know it should be it should be more legitimize and it is getting there I think security tokens are a good sign that people are moving border security tokens at least in the u.s. the legal firms the service providers are starting to get hold up on some of the new things and that's good still expensive to run the run the process it's like own public almost as a start-up it's almost ridiculous and I kinda had the same view we're the gaps in your opinion so you now look at the crowdfunding which has been great you see all that stuff happening as essentially as a decentralized you know efficiency around disrupting venture capital and other fundraising which is great where are the gaps in your mind from a service provider standpoint from an ecosystem where's the to-do items what needs to get done faster where are the gaps I think everybody's building out their technology to make everything easier currently there's a lot that's done manually or just to manually and needs to be more automated and then I think there's also a lot of education on both sides that needs to be done that's that's I think a huge gap there's a tendency to create echo chambers and so you end up talking with people who just won't even consider the other side of it with the possibility for change in whichever area they're in and that is I think we are gonna see that come together but that tends to hold people back because you thanks for coming on and sharing your insights great to have you on the cube and good luck with prime trust thank you okay this is a cube live coverage here at hosts show con I'm John furrow your stay with us more live coverage after the short break

>> From the Hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering HoshoCon 2018. Brought to you by Hosho. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. It's theCUBE live coverage here in Las Vegas for the first annual blockchain security conference. The brightest minds in the industry coming together, it's called HoshoCon, and it's presented by, and sponsored by Hosho. But it's not their event, it's an industry event. And we're here with the co-founder and president, Hartej Sawhney, who is theCUBE alumni. Great to see you. You guys are doing a great event. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, it's always good to see you, and I'm so glad theCUBE is here at HoshoCon. >> So you've talked with us many times, but recently in Toronto about this event. This is not your company's event. You guys are putting it together. You're holding it because there's no other conferences that do this, but it's not just you guys. You guys are bringing the industry brains together. >> Yeah, I mean, we see ourselves as being on the intersection of cybersecurity and blockchain. And (coughs) just getting over a cold, but not a lot of conferences are out there that have a open discussion about cyber security in the blockchain industry. And hundreds of millions of dollars are stolen from exchanges. And 10% of all the money in the ICO space has been lost or stolen. And there's simply not enough platforms for this to be discussed. So, we figured we'd start the first conference that solely focuses on being a blockchain security conference. We chose not to have any ICO pitch competition. And it feels like there's more and more typical blockchain conferences out there, but it's important to be home base for anyone who wants to affiliate themselves with cyber security and the blockchain industry. >> And the depth and breadth of security is changing. We are hearing talks with, unfortunately I won't be able to attend the sessions, we're interviewing people all day, but amazing talks. How to hack an exchange, all these new surface areas. I mean, people kind of generally know they're unsecure, but this growth going on. There's new things happening. This is exposing some of the security vulnerabilities. What is the hot topics in the talk tracks here at HoshoCon? >> We have Anand Prakash, who runs a company called AppSecure. He's one of the worlds best white hat hackers. Who has hacked into the likes of Linkedin, Facebook, Google, all the top names. And to have someone walk us through today, Anand Prakash said, "Here's how you hack into a crypto "currency exchange and here's how they actually did it." And to have a white hat hacker walk us through that, it opens up our eye balls as to how easy it actually was for a Japanese exchange to loose 500 million dollars. That's no small sum of money. And this industry is only going to survive if we together as a community come together and evaluate how was it that 500 million dollars got stolen? And how can we as a community of global lovers of bitcoin make sure that this does not happen moving forward? >> On that exchange hack, 500 million dollars in Japan, was that white hat done or was that black hat? >> It was black hat. Unfortunately the money's not been given back. >> So it's not given back. So that's a half a billion dollars? >> It's half a billion dollars stolen, yeah you know. How many industries are worth just about that much? >> Yes, you could feed a couple countries. This is legit, right? Obviously it's like total, you know, wild west if you want to call it. Stage coach robberies they got the mask on. No one knows who it is. This is real, this is absolutely real. What are you guys doing as an industry? What's happening here to prevent this? What are the key, you know hygiene or social, anti-social engineering? What are the key things that are going on that are solving this problem? >> So, every exchange needs to value security and get a penetration test. Every company needs to make sure that somebody at their company is in charge of their in house security practices. Most companies when you ask them, "Who's in charge of security?" They point their finger at the CTO. The CTO is in charge of architecting the software. You need to have somebody full time, in house taking care of the security. Ideally a CISO and if you can afford it, pay someone five to ten thousand dollars a month as a consultant to come in for a couple of months and take care of your in house security. These are basic things that, you know, surprisingly most bitcoin exchanges often times when they're hacked, they're hacked by a basic phishing attack. That one of your employees opened up the wrong email. They opened up a PDF and the hacker gained access to your computer and is now monitoring your keyboard strokes and stole millions of dollars. Or the exchange didn't get an actual penetration test of their exchange. Or exchanges are listing contracts that have not gone through a professional smart contract audit. These things are now, also we're seeing them service in regulation with central governments. And it seems that all the smaller island nations are spearheading the way in terms of writing clarity on regulation. In Malta, Bermuda, Gibraltar, all of them are trying to spearhead the way. I'm much more excited, to be honest, about some of the larger nations bringing clarity on regulation in the next two to three years. We all can't just move to a small island off the coast of Italy that is infamous for actually laundering money in the gaming space. Yes, now they're trying to bring clean clarity doing KYC and AML in Malta and write a actual regulation about security. And if you're domiciled in Malta and you're a exchange then you can only list a token that's been audited. It's wonderful but at the end of the day Malta is also a part of the EU and if the EU changes their mind, things can change Malta. I just feel like it shows the immaturity of the space. If very legitimate companies are all going to flee to small countries like Malta or to islands like Bermuda. Good on those island nations for being so pragmatic and forward thinking and for bringing legal clarity. I mean if I was in an exchange today, arguably yes you have to go to Malta if you want clarity on regulation and you don't want to be in the United States. Right now, Malta is your choice. I'm just personally a little bit much more excited about the next three years where, I make a joke to my co-founder and I say, "The suits are coming." That we look around these conferences and you don't see that many suits but the fortunate 500, many of them are either writing private blockchains, they're evaluating how they're going to leverage blockchain technology in their major businesses and they're going to leverage decentralized applications and tokenization for already running products that have millions of customers, that are already profitable and then when they get tokenized they're going to be up and running right away. So the next two to three years are going to be very interesting. From Hosho's perspective we've taken a big turn towards catering towards more publicly traded large sophisticated companies. We've partnered up with Telefonica. Telefonica is a Fortune 200 company. Its wonderful to be able to leverage that kind of a brand. To deal with major world wide entities that are publicly traded come to Telefonica and evaluate how they can leverage blockchain technology and get one bundled security package that includes Hosho, Rivets, and Telefonica. >> Yeah the Rivets solution is interesting. It's a hardware based solution. So the subscriber of the phone becomes the entity. It's really interesting and I think this points to new paradigms of security, which I want to get to in a second but I want to just unpack what you said about the small country, big country dynamic. Great for the small countries to be opportunistic. To be creative and capture this opportunity. But people want stability. They want clarity on regulations, yes, but also standards, technical standards. >> We can't all just move to the small country of Malta. >> Yeah I'll be in a plane the whole time. >> It just doesn't work. >> Yeah and by the way the game changes too. Whats the implications of say, Malta decides one day, "You know what?" "We're getting out, we're changing things." A company would have to move their domicile again. So it's a moving train, you don't know what you're going to get. It might be stable now but it's not a scalable opportunity. >> Yeah, people have families and they want to stay where they are. Simple as that. We have large countries that have a strong crypto community that's growing and let's see how they pan out. Singapore seems like a likely next candidate. You have Korea. I would argue to say that the worlds first decentralized application that will be massively adopted will be in Korea. Korea is going to be the place where we have the worlds first decentralized application launched with mass adoption, a paradigm shift. The kind of shift where you forgot what it was like before you used Gmail regularly. >> Yeah, total, total infrastructure change. Alright so I got to ask you the hallway conversation question. Obviously you're very popular here. It's you event, you're sponsoring with the community. I see you talking to a lot of people at the VIP dinner last night. What are some of the hallway conversations that you're having? A lot of interesting people here from diverse backgrounds, in security, technology, some policy, some regulatory, some business, and legal, but really bright minds. What's the hallway conversation like? What are you talking about? >> We're talking about how all of us are going to survive crypto winter that we just entered. We've entered a time where fund raising has become extremely difficult. A lot of funds are simply bleeding. They lost a lot of money and they're not cutting checks right now. So the companies that are going to survive and stick around through this crypto winter, they're making a strong statement and they're going to be the ones that are going to stick around. And a lot of them are here at this conference at HoshoCon. And it amazing to have discussions to see what are the problems that fellow founders are facing? Building companies that will survive this crypto winter. Another thing has been just what are we going to do as a community to self-regulate? Are we going to create self-regulatory organizations? Are we going to let another Moody's get created? What is our viewpoint on regulation in the space overall, right? We love Max Keiser. His viewpoint on regulation is very extreme where he believes bitcoin is a self-regulatory technology. And on the other hand we have people saying, "No, we need to quickly move to regulate the space. "Work with central banks, work with central governments, "and write out the regulations." That's been lot of the hallway conversation. And a lot of other ones that have been really intriguing to me has been people talking about what are things that they have done within their company to protect their employees. Because the reality is in the crypto currency space every single employee of a major company in this industry is a target by naturally being in this industry. And this includes you. We are all naturally targets. And it's not about how much bitcoin you have maybe its about how much bitcoin someone thinks you have. And all of a sudden you become a target. And we need to think about things like our physical security. So some of the more interesting conversations I've been having with people have been around, along the lines of what are you doing to protect you and your family in regards to your physical security? On top of that your online presences. >> So ransoms, people getting kidnapped and or extorted. These kinds of physical pressures? >> Yeah, like ShapeShift has a lot of great stories. Michael Perklin from, the CIS of ShapeShift is here. You should totally talk to him and get him on theCUBE. Michael Perklin has a long list of war stories that ShapeShift has been through. Some of them they went through before he was actually hired as a CISO. And ShapeShift would've also not been hacked of millions of dollars if they had brought on a CISO earlier such as Michael Perklin. I believe they had hired him as a consultant. Did not renew the contract, got hacked, and brought him on as CISO. And he was like, "If you had continued working with me "I would of, this would of been avoided." And that's really-- >> It's foolish. >> One other thing I've seen with ShapeShift actually is online you'll notice that all the employees of ShapeShift, their last names are not online. So on the website it says, their chief marketing officers name is Emily, it says "Emily Shape Shift". And their badges at conferences also says "Emily Shape Shift". These are interesting things to learn from other companies that this is what you're doing to protect your employees from them being hacked. It's very interesting for us to all exchange notes-- >> Shoot I'm out there, (mumbles) everywhere pretty much online. >> Well I'm out there as well. We just got to protect ourselves and we got to think about things like our physical security. People feel uncomfortable thinking about their physical security. They think that, "Oh no we're in America, "we'll just call the cops." What about when we travel? What about when you and I are in a village in Thailand hanging out? We are microorganisms and when microorganisms are hungry they'll do what ever it takes to eat. So if they smell abundance, you and I are in trouble. >> Yeah, we got to be careful. And this is something that you really got to worry about because there's been tons of war stories. Now ultimately when you get back down to the wallet, it's one of the things we've been talking a lot this morning on, with Rivets, was on about the notion of how hard it is for mainstream to use tokens. Where's my private key? This has always been the crypto problem, even with private key encryption. >> Yeah, or should we build a multi-sig wallet to store your tokens in a secure manner? People have been asking us for a long time, Crypto funds, ICO's, "How do we store our tokens!" And our problem was that A, we've either hacked into the other wallets that are available and we saw that they're insecure or the UI and UX completely sucks. So we said lets build our own and so we built our own. >> Are you open sourcing that, is that-- >> No, we're going to be, this is going to be a unique multi-sig wallet that we release, it's not. You're open sourcing the actual code of the wallet or else it's not going to be considered legitimate. >> Yeah, it's good, it's a goldmine. >> It's a profitable venture. >> And that's going to be 100% bullet proof? >> It's going to be very secure. >> Let's talk about Meadow Suite. >> So, we came to a point where our engineers needed better tooling to find security vulnerabilities in smart contracts. And what is available, Truffle, is weak and slow. And so we built Meadow Suite. We built in a long list of tools and a full suite of tooling that we believe are going to be used by a long list of people that are building on the Ethereum blockchain. Including a lot of our competitors. And so we've open sourced it and we're excited for people to check out Meadow Suite. It's on GitHub and our engineers have put a lot of time and effort into it. We even have our own logo for it. >> And the goal is to automate things, make it easier? What's the main, main initial goals? >> I would say, long story short, is to find security vulnerabilities in smart contracts and to build tooling around that. And to effectively build and find vulnerabilities in smart contracts. >> So they build it into their development process natively? >> Correct. >> Alright Hartej great to have you on and hey congratulations for putting on this event. I know we've talked about >> Awesome to be here. it in the past, it actually happened. It's the first inaugural one. >> We had this vision and I'm glad it came through. We had a great global events team. Gabriel Shepherd, and Ryan Shewchuk, and Brad Horspool, and Michelle Yon. And like they've put on conference's the size of Southwest by Southwest. And our vision is, look we're not in the events business. And we're a cyber security business at the end of the day. But we found it necessary that there has to be a conference where there's a platform for people to talk about cyber security intersecting with the blockchain industry. There's got to be a platform for someone to get on stage and say, "Hey here's lessons that "we learned from getting hacked" And if this industry is going to survive, this topic needs to survive. And the brands that want to affiliate themselves with blockchain security and that want to be apart of the discussion. This will be a go to conference every single year. We're going to keep doing it and I look forward to having you at every single one, coming. >> It's been great. And you know what's key is having reputable people working together in a community, building an open community, sharing data, sharing best practices, and having candid conversations. >> Yep, it's the only way to get someone as epic as Andreas Antonopoulos to your conference. I mean my co-founder and I have been looking up to Andreas for so long. Watching videos of Andreas. Watching videos of Max Keiser, Stacy Herbert. To have them here is really just truly remarkable and I'm grateful, I'm honored, I'm touched. I'm touched to have you here. I miss David Vellante, I wish he was here. >> He's in San Francisco, he says hi. He was going to fly in tonight but-- >> He texted me. >> He did, okay. >> Hartej it's great to see you. >> Great to see you >> Congratulations. as well. thank you. >> Great event. Okay we're here live with theCUBe coverage for HoshoCon 2018, the first inaugural security conference on blockchain. Industry leaders coming together. The brilliant, bright minds of the industry working out the solutions, trying to pedal faster. Better security, check it out HoshoCon.com. I'm John Furrier stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (techno music)

>> Voiceover: Live from Washington, D.C., it's The Cube covering .NEXT Conference. Brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back to Nutanix .NEXT Con, this is The Cube, the leader in live tech coverage, and we're here just outside of Washington, D.C. John Walton is here, he's the CIO of San Mateo County, Cube alum, good to see you again, thanks for coming back on. >> Great to be here, thanks for having me. You're very welcome, so it was good show. You been to .NEXT Con before, or-- >> This is my second one. >> Second one, okay. It's good little meet-ups, still kind of intimate, but they're growing, good buzz, what's your sense so far? >> I think it's good, I like to see the partners here. I've been wandering around, talking to some of my fellow CIOs on the floor here. It seems like people are really starting to understand better where Nutanix is going. I think there's a little bit of, you know, concern in the CIO community when they went public what that would mean, would they going to get bought out? And I think people are just happy to see status quo, heading in the right direction, being stable. You know, we all feel like our money's well invested and they are going to be around for the long run. >> I wonder if we could talk, sort of about the CIO role specifically at the county. And, you know, CIO, a lot of jokes, career is over, and keeping the lights on, that's all you do, and kind of thankless jobs, etc. But times are changing, everybody's talking about digital disruption, everybody's talking about being data driven. The whole big data thing is actually starting to feel real. And a lot of CIOs tell us that, in fact the last guest was saying we were sort of able to shift our attention from doing just nitty gritty infrastructure management to doing fun stuff. Is that what you're seeing in your environment? What are some of the drivers, and what's the environment like for you? >> Yeah, it is that way in San Mateo County. I mean, San Mateo County is interesting 'cause we are kind of the forgotten county between San Jose and San Francisco, right? Everybody commutes through San Mateo to one place or the other. But it's an exciting county to work in because you have so many of the thought leaders who actually live in the county. They run the companies and things. So, you have a community that's a very embracing of technology, and as the CIO for the county, I have the opportunity to play a multiple number of roles. I think what you alluded to, sort of the traditional view of the CIO role was keep the lights on, make sure everybody's got a new PC, don't let anything go down. And in our county certainly there was an aspect of that when I first joined them. And that's how we met Nutanix, was really refreshing our infrastructure, getting our uptime up, getting compute up. But that's all invisible now. That is a thing that technologies like Nutanix have afforded a CIO like myself is after you go through that initial big lift of getting up into the 21st century, and getting your infrastructure modernized in government, then you're able to be that chief innovation officer, chief disruption person, and really say, "What can I do for the community?", "What can I do on a regional scale?", "What can I do through partnerships?", so... You know, I really feel like infrastructure really has to become invisible. Nobody cares what switch is transmitting their data, nobody care what WAP they're connecting to. I mean, the end users don't really care what hyper-convert solution we use to provide the solution. I care, 'cause I'm a geek, and I care about the budget, and I care that my staff are happy, but really at the end of the day, the people who I'm most worried about are, you know, that departments that provide services to the public I'm trying to show relevance to, the elected officials who want to see us heading in the right direction and really adding value as government to the public that pays a lot of taxes, frankly. They want to see benefits. So, I'm really excited about the coming, we just got out of our budget cycle, and sort of really setting that vision for what do we want to do in the coming years. Nutanix powers that, but I don't have to worry about it anymore. >> John, what are some of those drivers that are helping you to innovate or provide more services, what are some of the big things you can share? >> Well I think you have to look at it from a, when you have infrastructure that's robust and it's up and it's cost-affordable, then you don't spend 80% of your time worrying about that. That's not what's keeping you awake at night. I get asked that a lot, "What's keeping you awake at night?" It's no longer that hard work on a crash or fail, or become the thing that delays all of my projects. So now the value-adds we look for is connectivity. You know, we talk about SMC Connect, San Mateo County Connect. It's now that we've created the infrastructure, put all of the services online, how do we get people better to connect to those? Do we need to market them more, or do we need to help understand the value they add to the community more? Do we need more wireless connectivity, do we need fiber connectivity? It's more connecting the public to the backend solution, whether they live in my data center or the cloud, what I care about are, are the applications and data relevant to the public, are they making their lives better, and do they have the tools to connect to those? 'Cause, kind of like San Mateo, it's very diverse. You know, you have sort of a high-tech corridor down the 101 corridor, where you have a lot of high tech area, and then you have a very rural area out towards the coast, and very different population you have to serve. >> Sounds like you're a service provider. >> Yes >> Yeah, yeah. >> Talk about this notion of invisibility. How has it changed the way in which your team works? >> Well, I think, you know, everyone wants to feel valued. I think if you're a network engineer or a server engineer, you want to feel like you add value. The one thing I think we do well in San Mateo County is, you know, we have performance metrics that we publish, that we're trying to achieve. Whether it's uptime or customer satisfaction, those trickle down to every group. So, invisibility means you don't have to worry about it anymore. But we do try to keep some visibility on how every staff person contributes to the ultimate outcome we're trying to achieve. So if people can see how6 they're individual efforts add value to the end result, I think they feel valued and they feel important. Invisibility's important because when I go to board meeting now, I'm not talking about, "Oh I need millions of dollars for this server," "Oh, we need to do this big network refresh." That's too visible. That's making the infrastructure the cornerstone of all your conversations, and it takes about two seconds before the board member's or elected official's eyes glaze over. They don't want to hear it. They want to hear about what are the visible aspects, how are we helping youth and community centers better connect to educational opportunities or job or internships. So, I think there'll always going to be a spend on technology to make things better. But I think as CIOs, when we get trapped in talking about specific technologies or how important infrastructure is, that makes it too visible. That makes it seem like that's all we care about. And I think the biggest compliment I ever got, in a budget meeting, was somebody saying, "What I appreciate is we spent 30 minutes talking about IT, and you never used one technical term." You know, and I think that's the invisibility piece of it is. I think as a CIO, you know you've done your job when you never have to to talk about the technology, right? The people that we serve in the community and the elected officials, they need to assume we're making a good technical decision to make those solutions happen. So I think, in a sense, the technology should be invisible, it should be affordable it should be simple. It should enable the end results, but the nuances of the technology we use, should probably in large be invisible to the public 'cause that's not really their concern. >> So you've suppressed a lot of the mundane, complex infrastructure, kind of low value add discussion, it sounds like, with the board. I imagine one area that you still talk about a lot is security. Is that a topic that is a regular topic at board meetings? >> Absolutely, and I think all the ransomware and virus attacks and hacker attacks, you've seen recently. And, I tweet about those a lot, and we talk about those a lot because we've have real impacts on our organization about things like that, phishing attacks. And this again is back to the value add, I think the message I try to bring to the board is our weakest point in security isn't always necessarily the technology, it's the complexity of the technology, right? So, the more complex we make our systems, the more complex and difficult to manage our infrastructure is, the more opportunities for weakness there are. So, we've gone from taking about security in an ivory tower aspect to, I think the two areas where we can focus on is more simplifying our infrastructure so it's easier to manage and easier to secure from our staff's standpoint, and that really adds value. So, we're really able to rapidly react to and address security issues as they come up because we have simplified our infrastructure. The board doesn't really need to worry about how we've done that, but the staff feel more confident that they're able to react to and manage those things, and then we can do value add things like train the users to be more aware of how phishing attacks happen when there's threats. Communicate better. We spent most of our time in the back room hashing servers, now with the Nutanix infrastructure, it's the easy button upgrade to patch servers and to get things addressed, and we can spend more of our time communicating with the end users about threats that are out there, how they should react, how they should respond to it. >> So John, you're kind of an early adopter of this whole concept of convergence. When we first met at VM Worlds a couple years ago, I think we were talking about traditional converged infrastructure, if I can use that term. Are you still using that type of infrastructure, how does is compare with so-called hyper-converged infrastructure, do you see differences? Is HCI a buzzword, or is it substantive in your view? >> I think it's substantive, you know I was doubtful at first too. You know, I came from, like you said, a few years ago, I think every CIO faces this. Especially in the public sector. It's what I call project ware. You know, you do a project, you do an RFP, you got three or four racks of equipment in of the lowest bidder, and that becomes a little island. And then you do the next RFP and you kind of grow your data center like that. We had tried early on when some of the new, sort of converged infrastructures were coming out, and I spend a lot of time going to EBCs, and talking about reference architectures, and one throat to choke when it came to when there's a problem, is it a compute problem or is it a storage problem? I think the industry has recognized for a while now since we first had these conversations about, again, simplifying and collapsing the complexity of those infrastructures is important. You know, I was doubtful when we first did the pilot with Nutanix. We first did the pilot around just VDI. We just saw Nutanix three years ago as a point solution, sort of the project where this was going to be our VDI platform. We would still maintain these other infrastructures for really important projects that needed the more traditional architectures. And, you know, it's really credited to my staff and engineers, it only took about six months before we had failing infrastructure, they would say, "Hey, we can use Nutanix. Let's hyper-converge, and chime in for other things, for compute. And now we're 100% virtualized. You know, we have over 1,200 servers now, all running on the Nutanix. There hasn't been a time in two years where my staff came to me and said, "The hyper-converged infrastructure we've selected isn't going to work for this, we have to buy something else." And so, to me that's when it goes from the theoretical, it might work, it might just be a... to a reality. If I'm going to go all in, and my staff are going to go all in on something, they have to be pretty confident that that's going to work for 'em. >> Are you Acropolis Hypervisor? >> We are in some things, you know, we don't use it for everything. But I think, you know, it goes back. We still have a very good relationship with VMware, we still think in some cases that VMware tools are still slightly more mature than the Acropolis tools. We think Acropolis has been catching up, we've actually been pushing really hard on Nutanix, to make it mature. And that's one of the reasons we've went with this platform, is we like to see that competition. We'd like to think that the Acropolis product will continue to mature, and challenge Vmware to either continue to evolve ahead of it, or bring their prices down to compete with it. >> You know, John, what's still on your to do list for Nutanix and it's ecosystem in your mind? >> You know, we're really looking at, really now around our disaster-recovery strategy, we're doing local replication between two data centers that are about six miles apart, which from a local building failure standpoint's useful. But my county's on the San Andreas fault, so the likelihood that a large earthquake is going to take both local data center is pretty high. So, we're really looking with Commvault and Nutanix and Amazon Web Services now, sort of about, you know, we have over 200 applications we support, for both public safety, healthcare, really mission-critical things that we can have zero downtime on, and in a disaster situation, healthcare and public safety applications are probably going to be the most needed applications out there. So, we're really pushing to try to see what that future looks like in the next 12 months around the Nutanix infrastructure. I don't say we have everything solved locally, but we're very confident in what we've implemented locally for our local compute, but really that next thing, what is the right balance between cloud compute and local compute? And how does that fit into the DR conversation's important. And back to your question about security, we still have real concerns about how secure is the public cloud. You know, it's not is it going to get hacked, but can the public cloud infrastructure be compromised to the point where in a disaster, if that's not available, how are we still going to get the data and applications up and running we need? So, we really see that there needs to be a balance between the two things. >> It's a response issue for you, and in that case-- >> It is, and we don't believe it's less secure, but we believe there's a RTO we need to meet in a disaster, and having lived through the Japan earthquake when I was in Tokyo when they had the 9.0, response time was critical. You can't say, "Well, we'll have the internet connection back up by then," and be reliant on your partners to do that, you need access to that data right now. So you've got a synchronous connection today, between your two data center, is that right? >> We have two data centers, but not to an out-of-area data center yet. That's what we need to accomplish next. >> Okay, yeah, good. Alright, listen. John, thanks very much for coming to The Cube. >> It's my pleasure. >> Let me give you the last word here on Nutanix, your future with them, or other things that you'd want to share? >> Well, we're excited about it and I'd recommend to any CIO who's watching this or thinking about it, really consider it, and see how it fits into your ecosystem. >> Great, always good having you on. Thanks very much for coming. >> It's my pleasure, thank you gentlemen. >> You're welcome. Alright, keep right there, buddy. Stew and I back with our next guest. This is The Cube, we're live from Nutanix .NEXT Conf. Be right back. >> Voiceover: Robert Herjavec

>> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering Red Hat Summit 2017 brought to you by Red Hat. (electronic music) >> Welcome back to the Red Hat Summit here in Boston, Massachusetts, I'm Rebecca Knight, your host, my cohost, Stu Miniman, we are joined by Tim Cramer, he is the engineering director at Ansible Red Hat. Thanks so much for joining us, Tim. >> Hey, great to be here. >> So, you've been at Ansible a couple of years now, talk a little bit about your role, what you do, and new projects you're working on. >> All right, yeah, so I came over with the acquisition of Ansible into Red Hat, I manage the Ansible engineering team and I now have the Insights engineering team as well. We have many cool projects that we've been working on, one that's really exciting was Networking, but I know that you've talked to other people about that one. Another one is Ansible Container, which I'm also really excited about. What we've done is we noticed the Dockerfile sure did look convoluted, so we thought, it kind of looked like a bad shell script, and we thought well since we take bad shell scripts and we turn them into playbooks, into something very human readable, wouldn't it be great if we did the same thing for Dockerfile? So that's what Ansible Container really is. It's for companies that have really invested in Ansible, and they have a lot of Ansible content, take that content and be able to basically onboard it into OpenShift really easily with the Ansible container project. >> I actually, it was interesting, we were talking about kind of the history and things like the old Solaris Containers versus Docker, I read an interesting article talking about you know, containers aren't a thing it's more like a collection of things because I mean, you've got Linux Namespaces, Cgroups, and all those pieces, so it sounds like that's one of things that you guys are trying to help like Red Hat has always done, bring some supervision to some of these open source pieces. >> Yeah, a big thing about Ansible the thing that we try to do, over and over again is just make things as simple as possible, we're all about simplicity, and that's what we're trying to do on the Docker, sort of lifecycle. Between Dockerfile becoming easier, we also try to make it easier for you to be able to compose those into some kind of running set of microservices. >> Tim, since you came over with the acquisition, one thing that we've noted is, you know, Ansible's everywhere this week, it's been 18 months since the acquisition, we talked to Joe Fitzgerald, we talked to Andreas and it's getting it's pieces all over the place and sounds like more, could you give us a little bit of the insider view as to, you know, how that progression went, you know, what you're seeing, any challenges, I mean, we know it's all open source, but what do you have to navigate and how do you get that one plus one equals three once you put all this stuff together? >> Yeah, so I think that the acquisition itself was a really great move, right? It was great for Ansible, it was great for Red Hat. It filled a gap that they needed on the automation side and to make their products easier to install, configure especially, so what we noticed is that right after the acquisition Red Hat really just tried to let us keep going and run the business as is. They didn't try to force us into any specific model that they had for running things at Red Hat. What naturally happened was, because of the acquisition a lot of teams just started using it, playing with it, we were there as a consulting team to help a bunch of teams through whatever questions they had, but it took off virally just like it seems to take off virally with a lot of our customers. It is in literally every product that Red Hat ships today and then we have deeper integrations with some of the products. I know you've talked probably about CloudForms and Ansible Inside and we have a better integration with Satellite and Insights is the other one that's really good. >> In terms of the acquisition, what about the cultures? Before the cameras were rolling we were talking about how deep the Red Hat culture runs, really that's sort of brought down by Jim Whitehurst. Ansible had its own culture, how has the blending of the cultures been from your perspective? >> Yeah, one thing that I was really excited about coming in was, I've been in several large enterprises and I've been acquired now, this will be the third time that I've been acquired, and it's definitely the best one. This is a software company and that in itself is very exciting, because we're not trying to placate the hardware teams or you know, with some software add on stuff that I had in other acquisitions. The culture at Red Hat is one of really cooperation and everybody helping each other out, working together in communities, especially upstream communities, it's really upstream community first oriented, and that really helps teams integrate better at Red Hat because we can just work in our upstream community, we work in other people's upstream communities and get everything to tie together, it's a really nice collaborative model. So that culture of collaboration, and everybody's trying to get things done, do the right thing, it's fascinating. >> In a previous interview, you described your management philosophy as one of trust and enablement and that is something we've heard a lot at this conference is really empowering the individual, trusting the individual, it sounds wonderful, and it's the kind of boss I would want to work for, but how do you do it, what are some of the practices that you do to ensure that your engineers feel supported? And that you trust them? >> Well first, we do have a few job openings, so if you want to apply. >> (laughs) Okay, good to know. >> I guess some of the practices that I have when it comes to trust and enablement is I give my, there's an unending amount of work to do, right? So it's actually kind of an easy philosophy to employ. I just make sure that my team has a set of directives that are really clear, that they need to perform and you do sort of trust but verify, right? So you give them a bunch of actions to perform and make sure that you're checking in regularly and let them solve problems the way they want to. If they have an issue, or a question, or they're confused about something, we just cover it in a one on one or in a group meeting. The other thing that I do a lot of is, I tend to do a lot of group meetings. So I have my entire staff, like an all hands event, we do those every two weeks to make sure everybody's on the same page about what's going on in the greater Red Hat and within our own projects and I think that keeps people really tied in. >> Tim, management is something that gets pulled out, you know, pulled out from every vendor in the environment. The cloud guys are trying to build more into it, those infrastructure guys you mentioned that do hardware are all, you know, trying to do that pieces. Talk to us a little bit about your customers, why they turn to Red Hat and Ansible rather than to some of the other alternatives that are out there. >> Sure, so again, I think that one of the things that's given us a huge advantage is that Ansible is just so simple and we appeal to a very broad range of users. So I think that's why it took off so quickly and is used by so many people. So a system that anybody that can write a shell script can start using Ansible and writing playbook and we've got tons of examples out there so you can cargo cult things. So it's number one, really, really easy to get going. I just lost my train of thought, and the question was? >> Customers, why they're choosing it. >> Oh, customers, yeah. On the customer side, I'll give you an example. So there's a large technology company in Silicon Valley that uses us, and I can't say their name, but one of the problems that they had was utilizing, well, they were having problems communicating between development and production, okay? So the development guys would go off and they'd come up with a product and they'd know how they would deploy it in development, but when it came to production they needed you know, a different way of deploying it. So they used to create these giant documents, requirements documents and they'd pass them back and forth and they would speak different languages, it really wouldn't work, it'd take a long time to get something into prod. Now they're using Ansible Playbooks as that definition. Since it's so readable, the production guys can understand what they're trying to do, the development guys can easily write that in. So it's a great communication mechanism between those teams, it really helps create a real DevOps environment for them. So that's one good example. >> Look at management, it usually has a different pricing structure than some of the rest of Red Hat, some of the cloud models, how do you guys look at pricing? How are you trying to make sure that you make it as you know, affordable as possible for customers? >> Wow, yeah, that's not my area (laughs). >> Fair enough, you want to talk a little bit about some other customers, you know, you're here at the show, what are they asking you about, what are they excited about, I'd love to get some of the customer viewpoints that you're hearing this week. >> It's been fascinating, I've done mostly customer interviews the whole time and what I get is a lot of positivity. They're excited about Ansible, they're excited about the integrations that we're having with the other Red Hat products, it's taking off everywhere and yeah, they're generally just really happy with the product. We have a lot of interest in Tower as well which helps manage your Ansible environment. It's been super positive. >> As you look forward, what do we expect to see going forward? We understand Ansible will keep growing across the portfolios and environments, but what excites you and what should we look for going forward? >> So I think within the community one thing that I'm excited about is the number of contributors we have, right? We have over 2,600 contributors to Ansible and even like in our Windows practice, we've got 83 people that are working actively on helping our Windows modules. I want to see that continue to accelerate, I want to be able to make sure that our contributors are able to get changes in quickly and easily and that's something that we've been focusing on a lot. One thing about a really large community, it's great because you get a lot of attention, but the difficult part is that you can't accept all the contributions that people want to give you without just letting anything in, so we've come up with some techniques now, we have some bots that we wrote that help people formulate their pull requests and what I see going forward is we'll get more and more contributions in. >> And you'll continue that, creating more bots to let more people in, or let more people contribute? >> Yeah, we're also doing some tagging, so we're making it really clear what things are really managed by the core team itself, right? All the basic stuff and the engine of Ansible, then we have vendor modules, that's another thing that's pretty exciting, a lot of vendors are coming in and contributing publicly which is fantastic, especially on the networking side. And then we'll have those things that are curated so they have an active maintainer within the community, and they go through review from our core team to make sure that they're up to the right standards, but those are modules you know you can count on and then we'll have more of that wild west, you know, experimental modules. >> Rebecca: I like it. >> People are really trying some things out. That's one way that we can really help, if we can get a lot more of those wild west and let those settle a little bit, get some community leadership and kind of take off, and then they go into the curated pile. >> Rebecca: It's the open source way. >> Tim: It is. >> Tim, thanks so much for joining us. >> Right, yeah, it's great being here. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman, we will continue with more of Red Hat in Boston, Massachusetts after this. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Munich, Germany, it's The CUBE, covering DataWorks Summit Europe 2017. Brought to you by Heartenworks. >> Okay, welcome back everyone, we are here live in Munich, Germany For DataWorks 2017, the DataWorks Summit, formally Hadoop Summit. I'm John Furrier with Silicone Angle's theCUBE, my co-host Dave Vellante, wrapping up day two of coverage here with Christoph Schubert, who's the Senior Director of SAP Big Data, handles all the go-to-market for SAP Big Data, @sapbigdata is the Twitter handle. You have a great shirt there, Go Live >> Go Live or go home. (Laughs) >> John: You guys are a part. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Christoph: Thank you, I appreciate it. >> Thanks for joining us and on the wrap up. You and I have known each other, we've known each other for a long time. We've been in many Sapphires together, we've had many conversations around the role of data, the role of architecture, the role of how organizations are transforming at the speed of business, which is SAP, it's a lot of software that powers business, under transformation right now. You guys are no stranger to analytics, we have the HANA Cloud Platform now. >> Christoph: We know a thing or two about that, yeah. (laughs) >> You know a little bit about data and legacy as well. You guys power pretty much most of the Fortune 100, if not all of them. What's your thoughts on this? >> Yeah, good point. On the topic of some numbers, about 75% of the world GDP runs through SAP systems eventually. So yes, we know a thing or two about transactional and analytical systems, definitely. >> John: And you're a partner with Hortonworks >> With Hortonworks and other Cloud providers, Hadoop Providers, certainly, absolutely but in this case, Hortonworks. We have, specifically, a solution that runs on Hadoop Spark and that allows, actually, our customers to unify much, much larger data sets with a system of records that we now do so many of them around the world for new and exciting new cases. >> And you were born in Munich. This is your hometown. >> This is actually a home gig for me, exactly. So, yes, unfortunately I'll also be presenting in English but yeah, I want to talk German, Bavarian, all the time. (laughs) >> I see my parents tonight. >> I wish we could help you >> but we don't speak Bavarian. But we do like to drink the beer though. It's the fifth season but a lot of great stuff here in Germany. Dave, you guys, I want to get your thoughts on something. I wanted to get you, just 'cause you're both, you're like an analyst, Christoph as well. I know you're over at SAP but, you know, you have such great industry expertise and Dave obviously covers the stuff everyday. I just think that the data world is so undervalued, in my mind. I think the ecosystem of startups that are coming out in the, out of the open source ecosystems, which are well-defined, by the way, and getting better. But now you have startups doing things like VIMTEC, we just had a bank on. Startups creating value and things like block chain on the horizon. Other new paradigms are coming on, is going to change the landscape of how wealth is created and value is created and charged. So, you've got a whole new tsunami of change. What's your thoughts on how this expands and obviously, certainly, Hortonworks as a public company and Cloudera is going public, so you expect to see that level up in valuation. >> They're in the process, yes. >> But I still think they're both undervalued. Your thoughts. >> Well it's not just the platform, right? and that what, I think, where Hadoop also came from. The legacy of Hadoop is that you don't have to really think about how you want to use your data. You have to, don't think ahead what kind of schema you want to apply and how you want to correlate your data. You can create a large data lake, right? That's the term that was created a long time ago, that allows customers to just collect all that data and think in the second stage about what to use with it and how to correlate it. And that's exactly, now, we're also seeing in the third stage, to not just create analytics but also creating applications instead of analytics or on top of analytics, correlating with data that also drives the business, the core business, from an OLTP perspective or also from an OLAP perspective. >> I mean, Dave, you were the one who said Amazon's a trillion dollar TAM, will be the first trillion dollar company and you were kind of, but you looked at the thousand points of Live with Cloud enables, all these aggregated all together, what's your thoughts on valuation of this industry? Because if Hortonworks continues on this peer play and they've got Cloudera coming in and they're doing well, you could argue that they're both undervalued companies if you count the ecosystem. >> Well, we always knew that big data was going to be a heavy lift, right? And I would agree with what Christoph was saying, was that Hadoop is profound in that it was no schema on right and ship five magabytes of code to a pedabyte of data. But it was hard to get that right. And I remember something you said, John, at one of our early SAP Sapphires, When the big data meme was just coming through. You said, "You know, SAP is not just big data, it's fast data". And you were talking about bringing transaction and analytic data together. >> John: Right. >> Again, something that has only recently been enabled. And you think about, you know, continuous streaming. I think that, now, big data has sort of entered the young-adulthood phase, we're going to start seeing steep part of that S-curve returns, and I think the hype will be realized. I think it is undervalued, much like the internet was. It was overvalued, then nobody wanted to touch it, and then it became. Actually, if you think back to 1999, the internet was undervalued in terms of what it actually achieved. >> John: Yeah. >> I think the same or similar thing is going to happen with big data. And since we have an SAP guest on, I'll say as well, We all remember the early days of ERP. >> Mhm, oh yeah. >> It wasn't clear >> Nope. >> Who was going to emerge as the king. >> Right. >> There were a few solutions. You're right. >> That's right. And, as well, something else we said about big data, it was the practitioners of ERP that made the most money, that created the most value and the same thing is happening here. >> Yeah. In fact, on that topic, I believe that 2017 and 2018 will be the big years for big data, so to speak. >> John: Uh huh. >> In fact, because of some statistics. >> John: In what way? >> Well, we just did >> Adoption, S-curve? >> Right, exactly. Utilizing the value of big data. You're talking about valuation here, right? 75% of CEOs of the top 1000 believe that the next three years are more important to their business than the last 50. And so that tells me that they're willing to invest. Not just the financial market, where I believe really run the most sophisticated big data analytics and models today. They had real use cases with real results very quickly. And so, they showed many how it's done. They created sort of the new role of a data scientist. They have roles like an AML officer. It's a real job, they do nothing else but anti-money laundering, right? So, in that industry they've shown us how to do that and I think others will follow. >> Yeah, and I think that when you look at this whole thing about digital transformation, it's all about data. >> John: Yeah. >> I mean, if you're serious about digital transformation, you must become a data-driven company and you have to hop on that curb. Even if you're talking to the, you know, bank today who got on in 2014, which was relatively late, but the pace at which they're advancing is astronomical. >> John: Yeah. >> I don't remember his name, a British mathematician, created, about 11 years already, that according to the phrase "Data is the new oil". >> John: Mhm. >> And I think it's very true because crude oil, in its original form, you also can't use it. >> John: It has to be refined. >> Right, exactly. It has to be refined to actually use it and use the value of it. Same thing with data. You have to distill it, you have to correlate it, you have to align it, you have to relate it to business transactions so the business really can take advantage of it. >> And then we're seeing, you know, to your point, you've got, I don't know, a list of big data companies that are now in public is growing. It's still small, not much profit. >> I mean, I just think, and this is while I'm getting your reaction, I mean, I'm just reading right now some news popping on my dashboard. Google just released some benchmarks on the TPU, the transistor processing unit, >> Dave: Right. >> Basically a chip dedicated to machine learning. >> Yep. >> You know, so, you're going to start to see some abstraction layers develop, whether it's a hardened-top processor hardware, you guys have certainly done innovation on the analytic side, we've seen that with some of the specialty apps. Just to make things go faster. I mean, so, more and more action is coming, so I would agree that this S-curve is coming. But the game might shift. I mean, this is not an easy, clear path. There's bets being made in big data and there's potential for huge money shift, of value. >> See, one of the things I see, and we talked to Hortonworks about this, the new president, you know, betting all on open source. I happen to think a hybrid model is going to win. I think the rich get richer here. SAP, IBM, even Oracle, you know, they can play the open source game and say, "Hey, we're going to contribute to open source, we're going to participate, we're going to utilize open source, but we're also going to put the imprimatur of our install base, our business model, our trusted brands behind so-called big data." We don't really use that term as much anymore. It's the confluence of not only the technology but the companies who, what'd you say, 75% of the world's transactions run though SAP at some point? >> Christoph: Yeah. >> With companies like SAP behind it, and others, that's when this thing, I think, really takes off. >> What I think a lot of people don't realize, and I've been a customer, also, for a long time before I joined the vendor side, and what is under-realized is the aspect of risk management. Once you have a system and once you have business processes digitized and they run your business, you can't introduce radical changes overnight as quickly anymore as you'd like or your business would like. So, risk management is really very important to companies. That's why you see innovation within organizations not necessarily come from the core digitization organization within their enterprise, it often happens on the outside, within different business units that are closer to the product or to the customer or something. >> Something else that's happening, too, that I wanted to address is this notion of digitization, which is all about data, allows companies to jump industries. You're seeing it everywhere, you're seeing Amazon getting into content, Apple getting into financial services. You know, there's this premise out there that Uber isn't about taxicabs, it's about logistics. >> John: Yeah. >> And so you're seeing these born-digital, born in the cloud companies now being able to have massive impacts across different industries. Huge disruption creates, you know, great opportunities, in my view. >> Christoph: Yeah. >> David: What do you think? >> I mean, I just think that the disruption is going to be brutal, and I want to, I'm trying to synthesize what's happening in this show, and you know, you're going to squint through all the announcements and the products, really an upgrade to 2.6, a new data platform. But here in Europe the IOT thing just, to me, is a catalyst point because it's really a proof point to where the value is today. >> David: Mhm. >> That people can actually look at and say, "This is going to have an impact on our business tier digitization point" and I think IOT is pulling the big data industry and cloud together. And I think machine learning and things that come over the top on it are only going to make it go faster. And so that intersection point, where the AI, augmented intelligence, is going to come in, I think that's where you're going to start to see real proof points on value proposition of data. I mean, right now it's all kind of an inner circle game. "Oh yeah, got to get the insights, optimize this process here and there" and so there's some low hanging fruit, but the big shifting, mind blowing, CEO changing strategies will come from some bigger moves. >> To that point, actually, two things I want to mention that SAP does in that space, specifically, right? Startups, we have a program actually, SAP.io, that Bill McDermont also recently introduced again, where we invest in startups in this space to help foster innovation faster, right? And also connecting that with our customers. >> John: What is it called? >> SAP.io Something to look out for. And on the topic of IOT, we made, also, an announcement at the beginning of the year, Project Leonardo. >> Yeah. >> It's a commitment, it's a solution set, and it's also an investment strategy, right? We're committed in this market to invest, to create solutions, we have solutions already in the cloud and also in primus. There are a few companies we also purchased in conjunction with Loeonardo, RT specifically. Some of our customers in the manufacturing space, very strong opportunity for IOT, sensor collection, creating SLAs for robotics on the manufacturing floor. For example, we have a complete solution set to make that possible and realize that for our customers and that's exactly a perfect example where these sensor applications in IOT, edge, compute rich environments come together also with a core where, then, a system of references like machine points, for example, matter because if you manage the SLA for a machine, for example, you just not only monitor it, you want to also automatically trigger the replacement of a part, for example, and that's why you need an SAP component, as well. So, in that space, we're heavily investing, as well. >> The other think I want to say about IOT is, I see it, I mean, cloud and big data have totally disrupted the IT business. You've seen Dell buying EMC, HP had to get out of the cloud business, Oracle pivoted to the cloud, SAP obviously, going hard after the cloud. Very, very disruptive, those two trends. I see IOT as not necessarily disruptive. I see those who have the install base as adopting IOT and doing very, very well. I think it's maybe disruptive to the economy at large, but I think existing companies like GE, like Siemens, like Dimar, are going to do very, very well as a result of IOT. I mean, to the extent they embrace digitization, which they would be crazy not to. >> Alright guys, final thoughts. What's your walkaway from this show? Dave, we'll start with you. >> I was going to say, you know, Hadoop has definitely not failed, in my mind, I think it's been wildly successful. It is entering this new phase that I call sort of young-adulthood and I think it's, we know it's gone mainstream into the enterprise, now it's about, okay, how do I really drive the value of data, as we've been discussing, and hit that steep part of the S-curve. Which, I agree, it's going to be within the next two years, you're going to start to see massive returns. And I think this industry is going to be realized, looked back, it was undervalued in 2017. >> Remember how long it took to align on TCP/IP? (laughter) >> Walk away, I mean interoperability was key with TCP/IP. >> Christoph: Yeah. One of the things that made things happen. >> I remember talking about it. (laughter) >> Yeah, two megabits per second. Yeah, but I mean, bringing back that, what's your walkaway? Because is it a unification opportunity? Is it more of an ecosystem? >> A good friend of mine, also at SAP on the West Coast, Andreas Walter, he shared an observation that he saw in another presentation years ago. It was suits versus hoodies. Different kind of way to run your IT shop, right? Top-down structure, waterfall projects, and suits, open source, hack it, quickly done, you know, get in, walk away, make money. >> Whoa, whoa, whoa, the suits were the waterfall, hoodies was the agile. >> Christoph: That's correct. >> Alright, alright, okay. >> Christoph: Correct. So, I think that it's not just the technology that's coming together, it's mindsets that are coming together. And I think organizationally for companies, that's the bigger challenge, actually. Because one is very subscribed, change control oriented, risk management aware. The other is very progressive, innovative, fast adopters. That these two can't bring those together, I think that's the real challenge in organizations. >> John: Mhm, yeah. >> Not the technology. And on that topic, we have a lot of very intelligent questions, very good conversations, deep conversations here with the audience at this event here in Munich. >> Dave, my walkaway was interesting because I had some preconceived notions coming in. Obviously, we were prepared to talk about, and because we saw the S1 File by Cloudera, you're starting to see the level of transparency relative to the business model. One's worth one billion dollars in private value, and then Hortonworks pushing only 2700 million in a public market, which I would agree with you is undervalued, vis a vis what's going on. So obviously, you're going to see my observation coming in from here is that I think that's going to be a haircut for Cloudera. The question is how much value will be chopped down off Cloudera, versus how much value of Hortonworks will go up. So the question is, does Cloudera plummit, or does Cloudera get a little bit of a haircut or stay and Hortonworks rises? Either way, the equilibrium in the industry will be established. The other option would be >> Dave: I think the former and the numbers are ugly, let's not sugarcoat it. And so that's got to change in order for this prediction that we're making. >> John: Former being the haircut? >> Yeah, the haircut's going to happen, I think. But the numbers are really ugly. >> But I think the question is how far does it drop and how much of that is venture. >> Sure. >> Venture, arbitrage, or just how they are capitalized but Hortonworks could roll up. >> But my point is that those numbers have to change and get better in order for our prediction to come true. Okay, so, but in your second talk, sorry to interrupt you but >> No, I like a debate and I want to know where that line is. We'll be watching. >> Dave: Yeah. >> But the value in, I think you guys are pointing out but I walk away, is IOT is bigger here, and I already said that, but I think the S-curve is, you're right on. I think you're going to start to see real, fast product development around incorporating data, whether that's a Hortonworks model, which seems to be the nice unifying, partner-oriented one, that's going to start seeing specialized hardware that people are going to start building chips for using flash or other things, and optimizing hard complexities. You pointed that out on the intro yesterday. And putting real product value on the table. I think the cards are going to start hitting the table in ecosystem, and what I'm seeing is that happening now. So, I think just an overall healthy ecosystem. >> Without a doubt. >> Okay. >> Great. >> Any final comments? >> Let's have a beer. >> Great to see you in Munich. (laughter) >> We'll have a beer, we had a pig knuckle last night, Dave. We had some sauerkraut. >> Christoph: (speaks foreign word) >> Yeah, we had the (speaks foreign word). Dave, we'll grab the beer, thanks. Good to be with you again. Thanks to the crew, thanks to everyone watching. >> Thanks, John. >> The CUBE, signing off from Munich, Germany for DataWorks 2017. Thanks for watching, see ya next time. (soft techno music)