(light music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. Dave Vellante with Dave Nicholson. Lisa Martin's been here all week. John Furrier is in our Palo Alto studio, banging out all the news. Don't forget to check out siliconangle.com, thecube.net. This is day four, our last segment, winding down. MWC23, super excited to be here. Wayne Duso, friend of theCUBE, VP of engineering from products at AWS is here with Iyad Tarazi, who's the CEO of Federated Wireless. Gents, welcome. >> Good to be here. >> Nice to see you. >> I'm so stoked, Wayne, that we connected before the show. We texted, I'm like, "You're going to be there. I'm going to be there. You got to come on theCUBE." So thank you so much for making time, and thank you for bringing a customer partner, Federated Wireless. Everybody knows AWS. Iyad, tell us about Federated Wireless. >> We're a software and services company out of Arlington, Virginia, right outside of Washington, DC, and we're really focused on this new technology called Shared Spectrum and private wireless for 5G. Think of it as enterprises consuming 5G, the way they used to consume WiFi. >> Is that unrestricted spectrum, or? >> It is managed, organized, interference free, all through cloud platforms. That's how we got to know AWS. We went and got maybe about 300 products from AWS to make it work. Quite sophisticated, highly available, and pristine spectrum worth billions of dollars, but available for people like you and I, that want to build enterprises, that want to make things work. Also carriers, cable companies everybody else that needs it. It's really a new revolution for everyone. >> And that's how you, it got introduced to AWS. Was that through public sector, or just the coincidence that you're in DC >> No, I, well, yes. The center of gravity in the world for spectrum is literally Arlington. You have the DOD spectrum people, you have spectrum people from National Science Foundation, DARPA, and then you have commercial sector, and you have the FCC just an Uber ride away. So we went and found the scientists that are doing all this work, four or five of them, Virginia Tech has an office there too, for spectrum research for the Navy. Come together, let's have a party and make a new model. >> So I asked this, I'm super excited to have you on theCUBE. I sat through the keynotes on Monday. I saw Satya Nadella was in there, Thomas Kurian there was no AWS. I'm like, where's AWS? AWS is everywhere. I mean, you guys are all over the show. I'm like, "Hey, where's the number one cloud?" So you guys have made a bunch of announcements at the show. Everybody's talking about the cloud. What's going on for you guys? >> So we are everywhere, and you know, we've been coming to this show for years. But this is really a year that we can demonstrate that what we've been doing for the IT enterprise, IT people for 17 years, we're now bringing for telcos, you know? For years, we've been, 17 years to be exact, we've been bringing the cloud value proposition, whether it's, you know, cost efficiencies or innovation or scale, reliability, security and so on, to these enterprise IT folks. Now we're doing the same thing for telcos. And so whether they want to build in region, in a local zone, metro area, on-prem with an outpost, at the edge with Snow Family, or with our IoT devices. And no matter where they want to start, if they start in the cloud and they want to move to the edge, or they start in the edge and they want to bring the cloud value proposition, like, we're demonstrating all of that is happening this week. And, and very much so, we're also demonstrating that we're bringing the same type of ecosystem that we've built for enterprise IT. We're bringing that type of ecosystem to the telco companies, with CSPs, with the ISP vendors. We've seen plenty of announcements this week. You know, so on and so forth. >> So what's different, is it, the names are different? Is it really that simple, that you're just basically taking the cloud model into telco, and saying, "Hey, why do all this undifferentiated heavy lifting when we can do it for you? Don't worry about all the plumbing." Is it really that simple? I mean, that straightforward. >> Well, simple is probably not what I'd say, but we can make it straightforward. >> Conceptually. >> Conceptually, yes. Conceptually it is the same. Because if you think about, firstly, we'll just take 5G for a moment, right? The 5G folks, if you look at the architecture for 5G, it was designed to run on a cloud architecture. It was designed to be a set of services that you could partition, and run in different places, whether it's in the region or at the edge. So in many ways it is sort of that simple. And let me give you an example. Two things, the first one is we announced integrated private wireless on AWS, which allows enterprise customers to come to a portal and look at the industry solutions. They're not worried about their network, they're worried about solving a problem, right? And they can come to that portal, they can find a solution, they can find a service provider that will help them with that solution. And what they end up with is a fully validated offering that AWS telco SAS have actually put to its paces to make sure this is a real thing. And whether they get it from a telco, and, and quite frankly in that space, it's SIs such as Federated that actually help our customers deploy those in private environments. So that's an example. And then added to that, we had a second announcement, which was AWS telco network builder, which allows telcos to plan, deploy, and operate at scale telco network capabilities on the cloud, think about it this way- >> As a managed service? >> As a managed service. So think about it this way. And the same way that enterprise IT has been deploying, you know, infrastructure as code for years. Telco network builder allows the telco folks to deploy telco networks and their capabilities as code. So it's not simple, but it is pretty straightforward. We're making it more straightforward as we go. >> Jump in Dave, by the way. He can geek out if you want. >> Yeah, no, no, no, that's good, that's good, that's good. But actually, I'm going to ask an AWS question, but I'm going to ask Iyad the AWS question. So when we, when I hear the word cloud from Wayne, cloud, AWS, typically in people's minds that denotes off-premises. Out there, AWS data center. In the telecom space, yes, of course, in the private 5G space, we're talking about a little bit of a different dynamic than in the public 5G space, in terms of the physical infrastructure. But regardless at the edge, there are things that need to be physically at the edge. Do you feel that AWS is sufficiently, have they removed the H word, hybrid, from the list of bad words you're not allowed to say? 'Cause there was a point in time- >> Yeah, of course. >> Where AWS felt that their growth- >> They'll even say multicloud today, (indistinct). >> No, no, no, no, no. But there was a period of time where, rightfully so, AWS felt that the growth trajectory would be supported solely by net new things off premises. Now though, in this space, it seems like that hybrid model is critical. Do you see AWS being open to the hybrid nature of things? >> Yeah, they're, absolutely. I mean, just to explain from- we're a services company and a solutions company. So we put together solutions at the edge, a smart campus, smart agriculture, a deployment. One of our biggest deployment is a million square feet warehouse automation project with the Marine Corps. >> That's bigger than the Fira. >> Oh yeah, it's bigger, definitely bigger than, you know, a small section of here. It's actually three massive warehouses. So yes, that is the edge. What the cloud is about is that massive amount of efficiency has happened by concentrating applications in data centers. And that is programmability, that is APIs that is solutions, that is applications that can run on it, where people know how to do it. And so all that efficiency now is being ported in a box called the edge. What AWS is doing for us is bringing all the business and technical solutions they had into the edge. Some of the data may send back and forth, but that's actually a smaller piece of the value for us. By being able to bring an AWS package at the edge, we're bringing IoT applications, we're bringing high speed cameras, we're able to integrate with the 5G public network. We're able to bring in identity and devices, we're able to bring in solutions for students, embedded laptops. All of these things that you can do much much faster and cheaper if you are able to tap in the 4,000, 5,000 partners and all the applications and all the development and all the models that AWS team did. By being able to bring that efficiency to the edge why reinvent that? And then along with that, there are partners that you, that help do integration. There are development done to make it hardened, to make the data more secure, more isolated. All of these things will contribute to an edge that truly is a carbon copy of the data center. >> So Wayne, it's AWS, Regardless of where the compute, networking and storage physically live, it's AWS. Do you think that the term cloud will sort of drift away from usage? Because if, look, it's all IT, in this case it's AWS and federated IT working together. How, what's your, it's sort of a obscure question about cloud, because cloud is so integrated. >> You Got this thing about cloud, it's just IT. >> I got thing about cloud too, because- >> You and Larry Ellison. >> Because it's no, no, no, I'm, yeah, well actually there's- >> There's a lot of IT that's not cloud, just say that okay. >> Now, a lot of IT that isn't cloud, but I would say- >> But I'll (indistinct) cloud is an IT tool, and you see AWS obviously with the Snow fill in the blank line of products and outpost type stuff. Fair to say that you're, doesn't matter where it is, it could be AWS if it's on the edge, right? >> Well, you know, everybody wants to define the cloud as what it may have been when it started. But if you look at what it was when it started and what it is today, it is different. But the ability to bring the experience, the AWS experience, the services, the operational experience and all the things that Iyad had been talking about from the region all to all the way to, you know, the IoT device, if you would, that entire continuum. And it doesn't matter where you start. Like if you start in region and you need to bring your value to other places because your customers are asking you to do so, we're enabling that experience where you need to bring it. If you started at the edge, and- but you want to build cloud value, you know, whether it's again, cost efficiency, scalability, AI, ML or analytics into those capabilities, you can start at the edge with the same APIs, with the same service, the same capabilities, and you can build that value in right from the get go. You don't build this bifurcation or many separations and try to figure out how do I glue them together? There is no gluing together. So if you think of cloud as being elastic, scalable flexible, where you can drive innovation, it's the same exact model on the continuum. And you can start at either end, it's up to you as a customer. >> And I think if, the key to me is the ecosystem. I mean, if you can do for this industry what you've done for the technology- enterprise technology business from an ecosystem standpoint, you know everybody talks about flywheel, but that gives you like the massive flywheel. I don't know what the ratio is, but it used to be for every dollar spent on a VMware license, $15 is spent in the ecosystem. I've never heard similar ratios in the AWS ecosystem, but it's, I go to reinvent and I'm like, there's some dollars being- >> That's a massive ecosystem. >> (indistinct). >> And then, and another thing I'll add is Jose Maria Alvarez, who's the chairman of Telefonica, said there's three pillars of the future-ready telco, low latency, programmable networks, and he said cloud and edge. So they recognizing cloud and edge, you know, low latency means you got to put the compute and the data, the programmable infrastructure was invented by Amazon. So what's the strategy around the telco edge? >> So, you know, at the end, so those are all great points. And in fact, the programmability of the network was a big theme in the show. It was a huge theme. And if you think about the cloud, what is the cloud? It's a set of APIs against a set of resources that you use in whatever way is appropriate for what you're trying to accomplish. The network, the telco network becomes a resource. And it could be described as a resource. We, I talked about, you know, network as in code, right? It's same infrastructure in code, it's telco infrastructure as code. And that code, that infrastructure, is programmable. So this is really, really important. And in how you build the ecosystem around that is no different than how we built the ecosystem around traditional IT abstractions. In fact, we feel that really the ecosystem is the killer app for 5G. You know, the killer app for 4G, data of sorts, right? We started using data beyond simple SMS messages. So what's the killer app for 5G? It's building this ecosystem, which includes the CSPs, the ISVs, all of the partners that we bring to the table that can drive greater value. It's not just about cost efficiency. You know, you can't save your way to success, right? At some point you need to generate greater value for your customers, which gives you better business outcomes, 'cause you can monetize them, right? The ecosystem is going to allow everybody to monetize 5G. >> 5G is like the dot connector of all that. And then developers come in on top and create new capabilities >> And how different is that than, you know, the original smartphones? >> Yeah, you're right. So what do you guys think of ChatGPT? (indistinct) to Amazon? Amazon turned the data center into an API. It's like we're visioning this world, and I want to ask that technologist, like, where it's turning resources into human language interfaces. You know, when you see that, you play with ChatGPT at all, or I know you guys got your own. >> So I won't speak directly to ChatGPT. >> No, don't speak from- >> But if you think about- >> Generative AI. >> Yeah generative AI is important. And, and we are, and we have been for years, in this space. Now you've been talking to AWS for a long time, and we often don't talk about things we don't have yet. We don't talk about things that we haven't brought to market yet. And so, you know, you'll often hear us talk about something, you know, a year from now where others may have been talking about it three years earlier, right? We will be talking about this space when we feel it's appropriate for our customers and our partners. >> You have talked about it a little bit, Adam Selipsky went on an interview with myself and John Furrier in October said you watch, you know, large language models are going to be enormous and I know you guys have some stuff that you're working on there. >> It's, I'll say it's exciting. >> Yeah, I mean- >> Well proof point is, Siri is an idiot compared to Alexa. (group laughs) So I trust one entity to come up with something smart. >> I have conversations with Alexa and Siri, and I won't judge either one. >> You don't need, you could be objective on that one. I definitely have a preference. >> Are the problems you guys solving in this space, you know, what's unique about 'em? What are they, can we, sort of, take some examples here (indistinct). >> Sure, the main theme is that the enterprise is taking control. They want to have their own networks. They want to focus on specific applications, and they want to build them with a skeleton crew. The one IT person in a warehouse want to be able to do it all. So what's unique about them is that they're now are a lot of automation on robotics, especially in warehousing environment agriculture. There simply aren't enough people in these industries, and that required precision. And so you need all that integration to make it work. People also want to build these networks as they want to control it. They want to figure out how do we actually pick this team and migrate it. Maybe just do the front of the house first. Maybe it's a security team that monitor the building, maybe later on upgrade things that use to open doors and close doors and collect maintenance data. So that ability to pick what you want to do from a new processors is really important. And then you're also seeing a lot of public-private network interconnection. That's probably the undercurrent of this show that haven't been talked about. When people say private networks, they're also talking about something called neutral host, which means I'm going to build my own network, but I want it to work, my Verizon (indistinct) need to work. There's been so much progress, it's not done yet. So much progress about this bring my own network concept, and then make sure that I'm now interoperating with the public network, but it's my domain. I can create air gaps, I can create whatever security and policy around it. That is probably the power of 5G. Now take all of these tiny networks, big networks, put them all in one ecosystem. Call it the Amazon marketplace, call it the Amazon ecosystem, that's 5G. It's going to be tremendous future. >> What does the future look like? We're going to, we just determined we're going to be orchestrating the network through human language, okay? (group laughs) But seriously, what's your vision for the future here? You know, both connectivity and cloud are on on a continuum. It's, they've been on a continuum forever. They're going to continue to be on a continuum. That being said, those continuums are coming together, right? They're coming together to bring greater value to a greater set of customers, and frankly all of us. So, you know, the future is now like, you know, this conference is the future, and if you look at what's going on, it's about the acceleration of the future, right? What we announced this week is really the acceleration of listening to customers for the last handful of years. And, we're going to continue to do that. We're going to continue to bring greater value in the form of solutions. And that's what I want to pick up on from the prior question. It's not about the network, it's not about the cloud, it's about the solutions that we can provide the customers where they are, right? And if they're on their mobile phone or they're in their factory floor, you know, they're looking to accelerate their business. They're looking to accelerate their value. They're looking to create greater safety for their employees. That's what we can do with these technologies. So in fact, when we came out with, you know, our announcement for integrated private wireless, right? It really was about industry solutions. It really isn't about, you know, the cloud or the network. It's about how you can leverage those technologies, that continuum, to deliver you value. >> You know, it's interesting you say that, 'cause again, when we were interviewing Adam Selipsky, everybody, you know, all journalists analysts want to know, how's Adam Selipsky going to be different from Andy Jassy, what's the, what's he going to do to Amazon to change? And he said, listen, the real answer is Amazon has changed. If Andy Jassy were here, we'd be doing all, you know, pretty much the same things. Your point about 17 years ago, the cloud was S3, right, and EC2. Now it's got to evolve to be solutions. 'Cause if that's all you're selling, is the bespoke services, then you know, the future is not as bright as the past has been. And so I think it's key to look for what are those outcomes or solutions that customers require and how you're going to meet 'em. And there's a lot of challenges. >> You continue to build value on the value that you've brought, and you don't lose sight of why that value is important. You carry that value proposition up the stack, but the- what you're delivering, as you said, becomes maybe a bigger or or different. >> And you are getting more solution oriented. I mean, you're not hardcore solutions yet, but we're seeing more and more of that. And that seems to be a trend. We've even seen in the database world, making things easier, connecting things. Not really an abstraction layer, which is sort of antithetical to your philosophy, but it creates a similar outcome in terms of simplicity. Yeah, you're smiling 'cause you guys always have a different angle, you know? >> Yeah, we've had this conversation. >> It's right, it's, Jassy used to say it's okay to be misunderstood. >> That's Right. For a long time. >> Yeah, right, guys, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. I'm so glad we could make this happen. >> It's always good. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> All right, Dave Nicholson, for Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante, John Furrier in the Palo Alto studio. We're here at the Fira, wrapping out MWC23. Keep it right there, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. >> All right, welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. This is Dave Vellante with Dave Nicholson. Day 4 of coverage MWC 23. We've been talking all week about the disaggregation of the telco networks, how telcos need to increase revenue how they're not going to let the over the top providers do it again. They want to charge Netflix, right? And Netflix is punching back. There maybe are better ways to do revenue acceleration. We're going to talk to that topic with Dave Trigg who's the Global Vice President of Telecom systems business at Dell Technologies. And Ken Burns, who's a global telecom partner, sales lead. Guys, good to see you. >> Good to see you. Great to be here. >> Dave, you heard my, you're welcome. You heard my intro. It's got to be better ways to, for the telcos to make money. How can they accelerate revenue beyond taxing Netflix? >> Yeah, well, well first of all, sort of the promise of 5G, and a lot of people talk about 5G as the enterprise G. Right? So the promise of 5G is to really help drive revenue enterprise use cases. And so, it's sort of the promise of the next generation of technology, but it's not easy to figure out how we monetize that. And so we think Dell has a pretty significant role to play. It's a CEO conversation for every telco and how they accelerate. And so it's an area we're investing heavily into three different areas for telcos. One is the IT space. Dell's done that forever. 90% of the companies leaning in on that. The other places network, network's more about cost takeout. And the third area where we're investing in is working with what we call their line of businesses, but it's really their business units, right? How can we sit down with them and really understand what services do they take to market? Where do they go? So, we're making significant investments. So one way they can do it is working with Dell and and we're making big investments 'cause in most Geos we have a fairly significant sales force. We've brought in an industry leader to help us put it together. And we're getting very focused on this space and, you know, looking forward to talking more about it. >> So Ken, you know, the space inside and out, we just had at AT&T on... >> Dave Trigg: Yep. >> And they were saying we have to be hypersensitive because of our platinum brand to the use of personal information. >> Ken: Yeah. >> So we're not going to go there yet. We're not going to go directly monetize, but yet I'm thinking well, Netflix knows what I'm watching and they're making recommendations and they're, and and that's how they make money. And so the, the telcos are, are shy about doing that for right reasons, but they want to make better offers. They want to put, put forth better bundles. You know, they don't, they don't want to spend all their time trying to figure that out and not being able to change when they need to change. So, so what is the answer? If they're not going to go toward that direct monetization of data? >> Ken: Yeah. >> How do they get there? >> So I, I joined Dell in- at the end of June and brought on, as David said, to, to build and lead this what we call the line of business strategy, right? And ultimately what it is is tying together Dell technology solutions and the best of breed of what the telecoms bring to bear to solve the business outcomes of our joint customers. And there's a few jewels inside of Dell. One of it is that we have 35,000 sellers out there all touching enterprise business customers. And we have a really good understanding of what those customer needs are and you know what their outcomes needs to be. The other jewel is we have a really good understanding of how to solve those business outcomes. Dell is an open company. We work with thousands of integrators, and we have a really good insight in terms of how to solve those business outcomes, right? And so in my conversations with the telecom companies when you talk about, you know combining the best assets of Dell with their capabilities and we're all talking to the same customers, right? And if we're giving them the same story on these solutions solving business outcomes it's a beautiful thing. It's a time to market. >> What's an example of a, of a, of a situation where you'll partner with telcos that's going to drive revenue for, for both of you and value for the customer? >> Yeah, great question. So we've been laser focused on four key areas, cyber, well, let me start off with connected laptops, cyber, private mobility, and edge. Right? Now, the last two are a little bit squishy, but I'll I'll get to that in a bit, right? Because ultimately I feel like with this 5G market, we could actually make the market. And the way that we've been positioning this is almost, almost on a journey for IOT. When we talk about laptops, right? Dell is the, is the number one company in the world to sell business laptops. Well, if we start selling connected laptops the telcos are starting to say, well, you know what? If all of those laptops get connected to my network, that's a ton of 5G activations, right? We have the used cases on why having a connected workforce makes sense, right? So we're sharing that with the telcos to not simply sell a laptop, but to sell the company on why it makes sense to have that connected workforce. >> Dave Vellante: Why does it make sense? It could change the end customer. >> Ken: Yeah. So, you know, I'm probably not the best to answer that one right? But, but ultimately, you know Dell is selling millions and millions of laptops out there. And, and again, the Verizon's, the AT&T's, the T-mobile's, they're seeing the opportunity that, you know, connecting those laptops, give those the 5G activations right? But Dave, you know, the way that we've been positioning this is it's not simply a laptop could be really a Trojan horse into this IOT journey. Because ultimately, if you sell a thousand laptops to an enterprise company and you're connecting a thousand of their employees, you're connecting people, right? And we can give the analytics around that, what they're using it for, you know, making sure that the security, the bios, all of that is up to date. So now that you're connecting their people you could open up the conversation to why don't we we connect your place and, you know, allowing the telecom companies to come in and educate customers and the Dell sales force on why a private 5G mobility network makes sense to connecting places. That's a great opportunity. When you connect the place, the next part of that journey is connecting things in that place. Robotics, sensors, et cetera, right? And, and so really, so we're on the journey of people, places, things. >> So they got the cyber angle angle in there, Dave. That, that's clear benefit. If you, you know, if you got all these bespoke laptops and they're all at different levels you're going to get, you know, you're going to get hacked anyway. >> Ken: That's right. >> You're going to get hacked worse. >> Yeah. I'm curious, as you go to market, do you see significant differences? You don't have to name any names, but I imagine that there are behemoths that could be laggards because essentially they feel like they're the toll booth and all they have to do is collect, keep collecting the tolls. Whereas some of the smaller, more nimble, more agile entities that you might deal with might be more receptive to this message. That seems to be the sort of way the circle of life are. Are you seeing that? Are you seeing the big ones? Are you seeing the, you know, the aircraft carriers realizing that we got to turn into the wind guys and if we don't start turning into the wind now we're going to be in trouble. >> So this conference has been absolutely fantastic allowing us to speak with, you know, probably 30 plus telecom operators around this strategy, right? And all of the big guys, they've invested hundreds of billions of dollars in their 5G network and they haven't really seen the ROI. So when we're coming into them with a story about how Dell can help monetize their 5G network I got to tell you they're pretty excited >> Dave Nicholson: So they're receptive? >> Oh my God. They are very receptive >> So that's the big question, right? I mean is, who's, is anybody ever going to make any money off of 5G? And Ken, you were saying that private mobility and edge are a little fuzzy but I think from a strategy standpoint I mean that is a potential gold mine. >> Yeah, but it, for, for lot of the telcos and most telcos it's a pretty significant shift in mentality, right? Cause they are used to selling sim cards to some degree and how many sim cards are they selling and how many, what other used cases? And really to get to the point where they understand the use case, 'cause to get into the enterprise to really get into what can they do to help power a enterprise business more wholly. They've got to understand the use case. They got to understand the more complete solution. You know, Dell's been doing that for years. And that's where we can bring our Salesforce, our capabilities, our understanding of the customer. 'cause even your original question around AT&T and trying to understand the data, that's just really a how do you get better understanding of your customer, right? >> Right. Absolutely. >> And, and combined we're better together 'cause we bring a more complete picture of understanding our customers and then how can we help them understand what the edge is. Cause nobody's ever bought an Edge, right? They're buying an Edge to get a business outcome. You know, back in the day, nobody ever bought a data lake, right? Like, you know, they're buying an outcome. They want to use, use that data lake or they want to use the edge to deliver something. They want to use 5G. And 5G has very real capabilities. It's got intrinsic security, which, you know a lot of the wifi doesn't. It's got guaranteed on time, you know, for areas where you can't lose connectivity: autonomous vehicles, et cetera. So it's got very real capabilities that helps deliver that outcome. But you got to be able to translate that into the en- enterprise language to help them solve a problem. And that's where we think we need the help of the telcos. I think the telcos we can help them as well and, and really go drive that outcome. >> So Dell's bringing its go to market expertise and its technology. The telcos obviously have the the connectivity piece and what they do. There's no overlap in terms of the... >> Yeah. >> The, the equipment and the software that you're selling. I mean, they're going to, they're going to take your equipment and create new networks. Beautiful. And, and it's interesting you, like, you think about how Dell has transformed prior to EMC, Dell was, you know, PC maker with a subpar enterprise business, right? Kind of a wannabe enterprise business. Sorry Dell, it's the truth. And then EMC was largely, you know, a company sold storage boxes, but you owned VMware and then brought those two together. Now all of a sudden you had Dell powerhouse leader and Michael Dell, you had VMware incredibly strategic and important and it got EMC with amazing go to market. All of a sudden this Dell, Dell technologies became incredibly attractive to CIOs, C-level executives, board level. And you've come out of that transition VMware's now a separate company, right? And now, but now you have these relationships and you got the shops to be able to go into these edge locations at companies And actually go partner with the telcos. And you got a very compelling value proposition. >> Well, it's been interesting as in, in this show, again most telcos think of Dell as a server provider, you know? Important, but not overly strategic in their journey. But as we've started to invest in this business we've started to invest in things like automation. We've brought together things in our Infra Blocks and then we help them develop revenue. We're not only helping 'em take costs out of their network we're not helping 'em take risk out of deploying that network. We're helping them accelerate the deployment of that network. And then we're helping 'em drive revenue. We are having, you know, they're starting to see us in a new light. Not done yet, but, you know, you can start to see, one, how they're looking at Dell and two, and then how we can go to market. And you know, a big part of that is helping 'em drive and generate revenue. >> Yeah. Well, as, as a, as a former EMC person myself, >> Yeah? >> I will assert that that strategic DNA was injected into Dell by the acquisition of, of EMC. And I'm sticking... >> I won't say that. Okay I'll believe you on that. >> I'm sticking with the story. And it makes sense when you think about moving up market, that's the natural thing. What's, what's what's nearly impossible is to say, we sell semi-trucks but we want to get into the personal pickup truck market. That's that, that doesn't work. Going the other way works. >> Dave Trigg: Yeah. >> Now, now back to the conversation that you had with, with, with AT&T. I'm not buying this whole, no offense to AT&T, but I'm not buying this whole story that, you know, oh we're concerned about our branded customer data. That sounds like someone who's a little bit too comfortable with their existing revenue stream. If I'm out there, I want to be out partnering with folks who are truly aggressive about, about coming up with the next cool thing. You guys are talking about being connected in a laptop. Someone would say, well I got wifi. No, no, no. I'm thinking I want to sim in my laptop cause I don't want to screw around with wifi. Okay, fine. If I know I'm going to be somewhere with excellent wifi connectivity, great. But most of the time it's not excellent. >> That's right. >> So the idea that I could maybe hit F2 and have it switch over to my sim and know that anywhere that I've got coverage, I have high speed connections. Just the convenience of that. >> Ken: Absolutely. >> I'd pay extra for that as an end user consumer. >> Absolutely. >> And I pay for the service. >> Like I tell you, if it interests AT&T I think it's more not, they ask, they're comfortable. They don't know how to monetize that data. Now, of course, AT&T has a media >> Dave Nicholson: Business necessity is the mother of invention. If they don't see the necessity then they're not going to think about it. >> It's a mentality shift. Yes, but, but when you start talking about private mobility and edge, there's there's no concern about personal information there. You're going in with basically a business transformation. Hey, your, your business is, is not, not digital. It's not automated. Now we're going to automate that and digitize that. It's like the, the Dell booth with the beer guys. >> Right. >> You saw that, right? >> I mean that's, I mean that's a simple application. Yeah, a perfect example of how you network and use this technology. >> I mean, how many non-digital businesses are that that need to go digital? >> Dave Nicholson: Like, hundred percent of them. >> Everyone. >> Dave Nicholson: Pretty much. >> Yeah. And this, and this jewel that we have inside of Dell our global industries group, right, where we're investing really heavily in terms of what is the manufacturing industry looking for retail, finance, et cetera. So we have a CTO that came in, that it would be the CTO of manufacturing that gives us a really good opportunity to go to at AT&T or to Verizon or any telco out there, right? To, to say, these are the outcomes. There's Dell technology already in place. How do we connect it to your network? How do we leverage your assets, your manager professional services to provide a richer experience? So it's, there's, you said before Dave, there's really no overlap between Dell and, and our telecom partners. >> You guys making some serious investments here. I mean I, I've been, I was been critical over the years of, hey, you can't just take an X86 block, put a name on it that says edge something and throw it over the fence because that's what you were doing. >> Dave Trigg: And we would agree. >> Yeah. Right. But, of course, but that's all you had at the time. And so you put some... >> We may not have agreed then, but we would agree. >> You bought, brought some people in, you know, like Ken, who really know the business. You brought people into the technical side and you can really see it happening. It's not going to happen overnight. You know, I mean, you know if I were an investor in Dell, I'd be like, okay when are you going to start making money at this business? I'd be like, be patient. You know, it's going to take some time but look at the TAM. >> Yep. >> You know, you guys do a good, good TAM. Tennis is a pro at this stuff. >> We've been at, we've been at this two, three years and we're just now coming with some real material products. You've seen our server line really start to get more purpose-built, really start to get in there as we've started to put out some software that allows for quicker automation, quicker deployments. We have some telcos that are using it to deploy at 10,000 locations. They're literally turning up thousands of locations a week. And so yeah, we're starting to put out some real capability. Got a long way to go. A lot of exciting things on the roadmap. But to your point, it doesn't, you know the ship doesn't turn overnight, you know. >> It could be a really meaningful portion of Dell's business. I'm, I'm excited for the day that Tom Sweet starts reporting on it. Here's our telco business. Yeah. The telco business. But that's not going to happen overnight. But you know, Dell's pretty good at things like ROI. And so you guys do a lot of planning a lot of TAM analysis, a lot of technical analysis, bringing the ecosystem together. That's what this business needs. I, I just don't, it's, it feels unstoppable. You know, you're at this show everybody recognizes the need to open up. Some telcos are moving faster than others. The ones that move faster are going to disrupt. They're going to probably make some mistakes, you know but they're going to get there first. >> Well we've, we've seen the disruptors are making some mistakes and are kind of re- they're already at the phase where they're reevaluating, you know, their approach. Which is great. You know, you, you learn and adjust. You know, you run into a wall, you, you make a turn. And the interesting thing, one of the biggest learnings I've taken out of the show is talking to a bunch of the telcos that are a little bit more of the laggards. They're like, Nope, we, we don't believe in open. We don't think we can do it. We don't have the skillset. They're maybe in a geo that it's hard to find the skillset. As they've been talking to us, and we've been talking about, there's almost a glimmer of hope. They're not convinced yet, but they're like, well wait, maybe we can do this. Maybe open, you know, does give us choice. Maybe it can help us accelerate revenue. So it's been interesting to see a little bit of the, just a little bit, but a little bit of that shift. >> We all remember at 2010, 2011, you talked to banks and financial services companies about, the heck, the Cloud is happening, the Cloud's going to take over the world. We're never going to go into the Cloud. Now they're the biggest, you know Capital One's launching Cloud businesses, Western Union, I mean, they're all in the cloud, right? I mean, it's the same thing's going to happen here. Might, it might take a different pattern. Maybe it takes a little longer, but it's, it's it's a fate are completely >> I was in high school then, so I don't remember all that. >> Sorry, Dave. >> Wow, that was a low blow, like you know? >> But, but the, but the one thing that is for sure there's money to be made convincing people to get off of the backs of the dinosaurs they're riding. >> Dave Vellante: That's right. >> And also, the other thing that's a certainty is that it's not easy. And because it's not easy, there's opportunity there. So I know, I know it's, it, it, it, it, it all sounds great to talk about the the wonderful vision of the future, but I know how hard the the road is that you have to go down to get people, especially if you're comfortable with the revenue stream, if you're comfortable running the plumbing. If you're so comfortable that you can get up on stage and say, I want more money from you to pump your con- your content across my network. I love the Netflix retort, right Dave? >> Yeah, totally Dave. And, but the, the other thing is, telco's a great business. It's, they got monopolies that print money. So... >> Dave Nicholson: It's rational. It's rational. I understand. >> There's less of an incentive to move but what's going to be the incentive is guys like Dish Network coming in saying, we're going to, we're going to disrupt, we're going to build new apps. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> Well and it's, you know, revenue acceleration, the board level, the CEO level know that they have to, you know, do things different. But to your point, it's just hard, and there's so much gravity there. There's hundreds of years literally of gravity of how they've operated their business. To your point, a lot of them, you know, lot- most of 'em were regulated and most Geos around the world at one point, right? They were government owned or government regulated entities. It's, it's a big ship to turn and it's really hard. We're not claiming we can help them turn the ship overnight but we think we can help evolve them. We think we can go along with the journey and we do think we are better together. >> IT the network and the line of business. Love the strategy. Guys, thanks so much for coming in theCUBE. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> All right, for Dave, Nicholson, Dave Vellante here, John Furrier is in our Palo Alto studio banging out all the news, keep it right there. TheCUBE's coverage of MWC 23. We'll be right back.

(intro music) >> Narrator: "theCUBE's" live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (gentle music) >> Hey everyone, welcome back to "theCUBE," the leader in live and emerging tech coverage. As you well know, we are live at MWC23 in Barcelona, Spain. Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson. Day three of our coverage, as you know, 'cause you've been watching the first two days. A lot of conversations about ecosystem, a lot about disruption in the telco industry. We're going to be talking about Open RAN. You've heard some of those great conversations, the complexities, the opportunities. Two guests join Dave and me. Abdullah Abuzaid, Technical Product Manager at Dell, and Gil Hellmann, VP Telecom Solutions Engineering and Architecture at Wind River. Welcome to the program guys. >> Thank you. >> Nice to be here. >> Let's talk a little bit about Dell and Wind River. We'll each ask you both the same question, and talk to us about how you're working together to really address the complexities that organizations are having when they're considering moving from a closed environment to an open environment. >> Definitely. Thank you for hosting us. By end of the day, the relationship between Dell and Wind River is not a new. We've been collaborating in the open ecosystem for long a time enough. And that's one of the, our partnership is a result of this collaboration where we've been trying to make more efficient operation in the ecosystem. The open environment ecosystem, it has the plus and a concern. The plus of simplicity, choice of multiple vendors, and then the concern of complexity managing these vendors. Especially if we look at examples for the Open RAN ecosystem, dealing with multiple vendors, trying to align them. It bring a lot of operational complexity and TCO challenges for our customers, from this outcome where we build our partnership with Wind River in order to help our customer to simplify, or run deployment, operation, and lifecycle management and sustain it. >> And who are the customers, by the way? >> Mainly the CSP customers who are targeting Open RAN and Virtual RAN deployments. That digital transformation moving towards unified cloud environment, or a seamless cloud experience from Core to RAN, these are the customers we are working with them. >> You'll give us your perspective, your thoughts on the partnership, and the capabilities that you're enabling, the CSPs with that. >> Sure. It's actually started last year here in Barcelona, when we set together, and started to look at the, you know, the industry, the adoption of Open RAN, and the challenges. And Open RAN brings a lot of possibilities and benefit, but it does bring a lot of challenges of reintegrating what you desegregate. In the past, you purchase everything from one vendor, they provide the whole solution. Now you open it, you have different layers. So if you're looking at Open RAN, you have, I like to look at it as three major layers, the management, application, and the infrastructure. And we're starting to look what are the challenges. And the challenges of integration, of complexity, knowledge that operator has with cloud infrastructure. And this is where we basically, Dell and Winder River set together and say, "How can we ease this? "How we can make it simpler?" And we decided to partner and bring a joint infrastructure solution to market, that's not only integrated at a lab at the factory level, but it basically comes with complete lifecycle management from the day zero deployment, through the day two operation, everything done through location, through Dell supported, working out of the box. So basically taking this whole infrastructure layer integration pain out, de-risking everything, and then continuing from there to work with the ecosystem vendor to reintegrate, validate the application, on top of this infrastructure. >> So what is the, what is the Wind River secret sauce in this, in this mix, for folks who aren't familiar with what Wind River does? >> Yes, absolutely. So Wind River, for many, many don't know, we're in business since 1981. So over 40 years. We specialize high performance, high reliability infrastructure. We touch every aspect of your day and your life. From the airplane that you fly, the cars, the medical equipment. And if we go into the telco, most of the telco equipment that it's not virtualized, not throughout the fight today, using our operating system. So from all the leading equipment manufacturers and even the smaller one. And as the world started to go into desegregation in cloud, Wind River started to look at this and say, "Okay, everything is evolving. Instead of a device that included the application, the hardware, everything fused together, it's now being decomposed. So instead of providing the operating environment to develop and deploy the application to the device manufacturer, now we're providing it basically to build the cloud. So to oversimplify, I call it a cloud OS, okay. It's a lot more than OS, it's an operating environment. But we took basically our experience, the same experience that, you know, we used in all those years with the telco equipment manufacturer, and brought it into the cloud. So we're basically providing solution to build an on-premises scalable cloud from the core all the way to the far edge, that doesn't compromise reliability, doesn't compromise performance, and address all the telco needs. >> So I, Abdullah, maybe you can a answer this. >> Yeah. >> What is the, what does the go-to-market motion look like, considering that you have two separate companies that can address customers directly, separately. What does that, what does that look like if you're approaching a possible customer who is, who's knocking on the door? >> How does that work? >> Exactly. And this effort is a Dell turnkey sales service offering, or solution offering to our customers. Where Dell, in collaboration with Wind River, we proactively validate, integrate, and productize the solution as engineered system, knock door on our customer who are trying to transform to Open RAN or open ecosystem. We can help you to go through that seamless experience, by pre-validating with whatever workload you want to introduce, enable zero touch provisioning, and during the day one deployment, and ensure we have sustainable lifecycle management throughout the lifecycle of the product in, in operate, in operational network, as well as having a unified single call of support from Dell side. >> Okay. So I was just going to ask you about support. So I'm a CSP, I have the solution, I go to Dell for support. >> Exactly. >> Okay. So start with Dell, and level one, level two. And if there are complex issues related to the cloud core itself, then Wind River will be on our back supporting us. >> Talk a little bit about a cust, a CSP example that is, is using the technology, and some of the outcomes that they're able to achieve. I'd love to get both of your perspectives on that. >> Vodafone is a great example. We're here in Barcelona. Vodafone is the first ora network in Europe, and it's using our joint solution. >> What are some of the, the outcomes that it's helping them to achieve? >> Faster time to market. As you see, they already started to deploy the ORAN in commercial network, and very successful in the trials that they did last year. We're also not stopping there. We're evolving, working with them together to improve like stuff around energy efficiency. So continue to optimize. So the outcome, it's just simplifying it, and you know, ready to go. Using experience that we have, Wind River is powering the first basically virtualized RAN 5G network in the world. This is with Verizon. We're at the very large scale. We started this deployment in late '20 and '19, the first site. And then through 2020 to 2022, we basically rolled in large scale. We have a lot of experience learning from it, which what we brought into the table when we partnered with Dell. A lot of experience from how you deploy at scale. Many sites from a central location, updates, upgrade. So the whole day two operation, and this is coming to bearing the solution that basically Vodafone is deploying now, and which allowed them... If I, if I look at my engagement with Verizon, started years before we started. And it took quite some time until we got stuff running. And if you look at the Vodafone time schedule, was significantly compressed compared to the Verizon first deployment. And I can tell you that there are other service providers that were announced here by KDI, for example. It's another one moving even faster. So it's accelerating the whole movement to Ora. >> We've heard a lot of acceleration talk this week. I'd love to get your perspective, Abdullah, talking about, you know, you, you just mentioned two huge names in Telco, Vodafone and Verizon. >> Yep. >> Talk a little bit about Dell's commitment to helping telecommunications companies really advance, accelerate innovation so that all of us on the other end have this thing that just works wherever we are 24 by 7. >> Not exactly. And this, we go back to the challenges in Open ecosystem. Managing multiple vendors at the same time, is a challenge for our customers. And that's why we are trying to simplify their life cycle by have, by being a trusted partner, working with our customer through all the journey. We started with Dish in their 5G deployment. Also with Vodafone. We're finding the right partners working with them proactively before getting into, in front of the customer to, we've done our homework, we are ready to simplify the process for you to go for it. If you look at the RAN in particular, we are talking with the 5g. We have ran the simplification, but they still have on the other side, limited resources and skillset can support it. So, bringing a pro, ahead of time engineer system, with a zero touch of provisioning enablement, and sustainable life cycle management, it lead to the faster time to market deployment, TCO savings, improved margins for our customers, and faster business revenue for their end users. >> Solid outcomes. >> And, and what you just just described, justifies the pain associated with disaggregating and reintegrating, which is the way that Gill referenced it, which I think is great because you're not, you're not, you're not re-aggregating, (laughs) you're reintegrating, and you're creating something that's better. >> Exactly. >> Moving forward. Otherwise, why would you do it? >> Exactly. And if you look at it, the player in the ecosystem, you have the vendors, you have the service integrators, you have the automation enablers, but kind of they are talking in silos. Everyone, this is my raci, this is what I'm responsible for. I, I'm not able, I don't want to get into something else while we are going the extra mile by working proactively in that ecosystem to... Let's bring brains together, find out what's one plus one can bring three for our customers, so we make it end-to-end seamless experience, not only on the technical part, but also on the business aspect side of it. >> So, so the partnership, it's about reducing the pen. I will say eliminating it. So this is the, the core of it. And you mentioned getting better coverage for your phone. I do want to point out that the phones are great, but if you look at the premises of a 5G network, it's to enable a lot more things that will touch your life that are beyond the consumer and the phone. Stuff like connected vehicles. So for example, something as simple as collision avoidance, the ability for the car that goes in front of you to be able to see what's happening and broadcast this information to the car behind that have no ability to see it. And basically affect our life in a way that makes our driving safer. And for this, you need a ultra low, reliable low latency communication. You need a 5G network. >> I'm glad you brought that up, because you know, we think about, "Well we just have to be connected all the time." But those are some of the emerging technologies that are going to be potentially lifesaving, and, and really life transforming that you guys are helping to enable. So, really great stuff there, but so much promise coming down the road. What's next for Dell and Wind River? And, and when you're in conversations with prospective CSP's, what is the superpower that you deliver together? I'd love to get both of your perspectives. >> So, if you look at it, number one, customers look at it, last savings and their day-to-day operation. In 5G nature, we are talking the introduction of ORAN. This is still picking up. But there is a mutualization and densification of ORAN. And this is where we're talking on monetizing my deployment. Then the third phase, we're talking sustainability and advanced service introduction. Where I want to move not only ORAN, I want to bring the edge at the same side, I want to define the advanced use cases of edge, where it enables me with this pre-work being done to deliver more services and better SLA services. By end of the day, 5G as a girl mentioned earlier, is not about a good better phone coverage, or a better speed robot, but what customized SLA's I can deliver. So it enables me to deliver different business streams to my end users. >> Yeah. >> So yeah. I will say there are two pens. One, it's the technology side. So for an example, energy efficiency. It's a very big pin point. And sustainability. So we work a lot around this, and basically to advance this. So if you look at the integrated solution today, it's very highly optimized for resource consumption. But to be able to more dynamically be able to change your power profile without compromising the SLA. So this is one side. The other side, it's about all those applications that will come to the 5G network to make our life better. It's about integrating, validating, certifying those applications. So, it's not just easy to deploy an ORAN network, but it's easy to deploy those applications. >> I'd be curious to get your perspective on the question of ROI in this, in this space. Specifically with the sort of the macro headwinds (clears throat) the economies of the world are facing right now, if you accept that. What does the ROI timeline look like when you're talking about moving towards ORAN, adopting VRAN, an amazing, you know, a plethora of new services that can be delivered, but will these operators have the appetite to take that, make that investment and take on that risk based upon the ROI time horizon? Any thoughts on that? >> Yeah. So if you look at the early days or ORAN introduction in particular, most of the entrepreneurs of ORAN and Virtual RAN ran into the challenges of not only the complexity of open ecosystem, but the integration, is like the redos of the work. And that's where we are trying to address it via pre-engineered system or building an engineer system proactively before getting it to the customers. Per our result or outcomes we get, we are talking about 30 to 50% savings on the optics. We are talking 110 ROI for our customers, simply because we are reducing the redos, the time spent to discover and explore. Because we've done that rework ahead of time, we found the optimization issues. Just for example, any customer can buy the same components from any multiple vendors, but how I can bring them together and give, deliver for me the best performance that I can fully utilize, that's, that's where it brings the value for our customer, and accelerate the deployment and the operation of the network. >> Do you have anything to add before we close in the next 30 seconds? >> Yeah. Yeah. (laughs) >> Absolutely. I would say, we start to see the data coming from two years of operation at scale. And the data supports performance. It's the same or better than traditional system. And the cost of operation, it's as good or better than traditional. Unfortunately, I can't provide more specific data. But the point is, when something is unknown in the beginning, of course you're more afraid, you take more conservative approach. Now the data starts to flow. And from here, the intention needs to go even better. So more efficiency, so cost less than traditional system, both to operate as well as to build up. But it's definitely the data that we have today says, the, ORAN system is at part, at the minimum. >> So, definite ROI there. Guys, thank you so much for joining Dave and me talking about how you're helping organizations not just address the complexities of moving from close to open, but to your point, eliminating them. We appreciate your time and, and your insights. >> Thank you. >> All right. For our guests and for Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching "theCUBE," the leader in live and emerging tech coverage. Live from MWC23. We'll be back after a short break. (outro music)

(soft music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Spain, everybody. We're here at the Fira in MWC23. Is just an amazing day. This place is packed. They said 80,000 people. I think it might even be a few more walk-ins. I'm Dave Vellante, Lisa Martin is here, David Nicholson. But right now we have the Analyst Hot Takes with three friends of theCUBE. Chris Lewis is back again with me in the co-host seat. Zeus Kerravala, analyst extraordinaire. Great to see you, Z. and Sarbjeet SJ Johal. Good to see you again, theCUBE contributor. And that's my new name for him. He says that is his nickname. Guys, thanks for coming back on. We got the all male panel, sorry, but it is what it is. So Z, is this the first time you've been on it at MWC. Take aways from the show, Hot Takes. What are you seeing? Same wine, new bottle? >> In a lot of ways, yeah. I mean, I was talking to somebody this earlier that if you had come from like MWC five years ago to this year, a lot of the themes are the same. Telco transformation, cloud. I mean, 5G is a little new. Sustainability is certainly a newer theme here. But I think it highlights just the difficulty I think the telcos have in making this transformation. And I think, in some ways, I've been unfair to them in some degree 'cause I've picked on them in the past for not moving fast enough. These are, you know, I think these kind of big transformations almost take like a perfect storm of things that come together to happen, right? And so, in the past, we had technologies that maybe might have lowered opex, but they're hard to deploy. They're vertically integrated. We didn't have the software stacks. But it appears today that between the cloudification of, you know, going to cloud native, the software stacks, the APIs, the ecosystems, I think we're actually in a position to see this industry finally move forward. >> Yeah, and Chris, I mean, you have served this industry for a long time. And you know, when you, when you do that, you get briefed as an analyst, you actually realize, wow, there's a lot of really smart people here, and they're actually, they have challenges, they're working through it. So Zeus was saying he's been tough on the industry. You know, what do you think about how the telcos have evolved in the last five years? >> I think they've changed enormously. I think the problem we have is we're always looking for the great change, the big step change, and there is no big step change in a way. What telcos deliver to us as individuals, businesses, society, the connectivity piece, that's changed. We get better and better and more reliable connectivity. We're shunting a load more capacity through. What I think has really changed is their attitude to their suppliers, their attitude to their partners, and their attitude to the ecosystem in which they play. Understanding that connectivity is not the end game. Connectivity is part of the emerging end game where it will include storage, compute, connect, and analytics and everything else. So I think the realization that they are not playing their own game anymore, it's a much more open game. And some things they will continue to do, some things they'll stop doing. We've seen them withdraw from moving into adjacent markets as much as we used to see. So a lot of them in the past went off to try and do movies, media, and a lot went way way into business IT stuff. They've mainly pulled back from that, and they're focusing on, and let's face it, it's not just a 5G show. The fixed environment is unbelievably important. We saw that during the pandemic. Having that fixed broadband connection using wifi, combining with cellular. We love it. But the problem as an industry is that the users often don't even know the connectivity's there. They only know when it doesn't work, right? >> If it's not media and it's not business services, what is it? >> Well, in my view, it will be enabling third parties to deliver the services that will include media, that will include business services. So embedding the connectivity all the way into the application that gets delivered or embedding it so the quality mechanism deliver the gaming much more accurately or, I'm not a gamer, so I can't comment on that. But no, the video quality if you want to have a high quality video will come through better. >> And those cohorts will pay for that value? >> Somebody will pay somewhere along the line. >> Seems fuzzy to me. >> Me too. >> I do think it's use case dependent. Like you look at all the work Verizon did at the Super Bowl this year, that's a perfect case where they could have upsold. >> Explain that. I'm not familiar with it. >> So Verizon provided all the 5G in the Super Bowl. They provided a lot of, they provided private connectivity for the coaches to talk to the sidelines. And that's a mission critical application, right? In the NFL, if one side can't talk, the other side gets shut down. You can't communicate with the quarterback or the coaches. There's a lot of risk at that. So, but you know, there's a case there, though, I think where they could have even made that fan facing. Right? And if you're paying 2000 bucks to go to a game, would you pay 50 bucks more to have a higher tier of bandwidth so you can post things on social? People that go there, they want people to know they were there. >> Every football game you go to, you can't use your cell. >> Analyst: Yeah, I know, right? >> All right, let's talk about developers because we saw the eight APIs come out. I think ISVs are going to be a big part of this. But it's like Dee Arthur said. Hey, eight's better than zero, I guess. Okay, so, but so the innovation is going to come from ISVs and developers, but what are your hot takes from this show and now day two, we're a day and a half in, almost two days in. >> Yeah, yeah. There's a thing that we have talked, I mentioned many times is skills gravity, right? Skills have gravity, and also, to outcompete, you have to also educate. That's another theme actually of my talks is, or my research is that to puts your technology out there to the practitioners, you have to educate them. And that's the only way to democratize your technology. What telcos have been doing is they have been stuck to the proprietary software and proprietary hardware for too long, from Nokia's of the world and other vendors like that. So now with the open sourcing of some of the components and a few others, right? And they're open source space and antenna, you know? Antennas are becoming software now. So with the invent of these things, which is open source, it helps us democratize that to the other sort of skirts of the practitioners, if you will. And that will bring in more applications first into the IOT space, and then maybe into the core sort of California, if you will. >> So what does a telco developer look like? I mean, all the blockchain developers and crypto developers are moving into generative AI, right? So maybe those worlds come together. >> You'd like to think though that the developers would understand everything's network centric today. So you'd like to think they'd understand that how the network responds, you know, you'd take a simple app like Zoom or something. If it notices the bandwidth changes, it should knock down the resolution. If it goes up it, then you can add different features and things and you can make apps a lot smarter that way. >> Well, G2 was saying today that they did a deal with Mercedes, you know this probably better than I do, where they're going to embed WebEx in the car. And if you're driving, it'll shut off the camera. >> Of course. >> I'm like, okay. >> I'll give you a better example though. >> But that's my point. Like, isn't there more that we can do? >> You noticed down on the SKT stand the little helicopter. That's a vertical lift helicopter. So it's an electric vertical lift helicopter. Just think of that for a second. And then think of the connectivity to control that, to securely control that. And then I was recently at an event with Zeus actually where we saw an air traffic control system where there was no people manning the tower. It was managed by someone remotely with all the cameras around them. So managing all of those different elements, we call it IOT, but actually it's way more than what we thought of as IOT. All those components connecting, communicating securely and safely. 'Cause I don't want that helicopter to come down on my head, do you? (men laugh) >> Especially if you're in there. (men laugh) >> Okay, so you mentioned sustainability. Everybody's talking about power. I don't know if you guys have a lot of experience around TCO, but I'm trying to get to, well, is this just because energy costs are so high, and then when the energy becomes cheap again, nobody's going to pay any attention to it? Or is this the real deal? >> So one of the issues around the, if we want to experience all that connectivity locally or that helicopter wants to have that connectivity, we have to ultimately build denser, more reliable networks. So there's a CapEx, we're going to put more base stations in place. We need more fiber in the ground to support them. Therefore, the energy consumption will go up. So we need to be more efficient in the use of energy. Simple as that. >> How much of the operating expense is energy? Like what percent of it? Is it 10%? Is it 20%? Is it, does anybody know? >> It depends who you ask and it depends on the- >> I can't get an answer to that. I mean, in the enterprise- >> Analyst: The data centers? >> Yeah, the data centers. >> We have the numbers. I think 10 to 15%. >> It's 10 to 12%, something like that. Is it much higher? >> I've got feeling it's 30%. >> Okay, so if it's 30%, that's pretty good. >> I do think we have to get better at understanding how to measure too. You know, like I was talking with John Davidson at Sysco about this that every rev of silicon they come out with uses more power, but it's a lot more dense. So at the surface, you go, well, that's using a lot more power. But you can consolidate 10 switches down to two switches. >> Well, Intel was on early and talking about how they can intelligently control the cores. >> But it's based off workload, right? That's the thing. So what are you running over it? You know, and so, I don't think our industry measures that very well. I think we look at things kind of boxed by box versus look at total consumption. >> Well, somebody else in theCUBE was saying they go full throttle. That the networks just say just full throttle everything. And that obviously has to change from the power consumption standpoint. >> Obviously sustainability and sensory or sensors from IOT side, they go hand in hand. Just simple examples like, you know, lights in the restrooms, like in public areas. Somebody goes in there and just only then turns. The same concept is being applied to servers and compute and storage and every aspects and to networks as well. >> Cell tower. >> Yeah. >> Cut 'em off, right? >> Like the serverless telco? (crosstalk) >> Cell towers. >> Well, no, I'm saying, right, but like serverless, you're not paying for the compute when you're not using it, you know? >> It is serverless from the economics point of view. Yes, it's like that, you know? It goes to the lowest level almost like sleep on our laptops, sleep level when you need more power, more compute. >> I mean, some of that stuff's been in networking equipment for a long time, it just never really got turned on. >> I want to ask you about private networks. You wrote a piece, Athenet was acquired by HPE right after Dell announced a relationship with Athenet, which was kind of, that was kind of funny. And so a good move, good judo move by by HP. I asked Dell about it, and they said, look, we're open. They said the right things. We'll see, but I think it's up to HP. >> Well, and the network inside Dell is. >> Yeah, okay, so. Okay, cool. So, but you said something in that article you wrote on Silicon Angle that a lot of people feel like P5G is going to basically replace wireless or cannibalize wireless. You said you didn't agree with that. Explain why? >> Analyst: Wifi. >> Wifi, sorry, I said wireless. >> No, that's, I mean that's ridiculous. Pat Gelsinger said that in his last VMware, which I thought was completely irresponsible. >> That it was going to cannibalize? >> Cannibalize wifi globally is what he said, right? Now he had Verizon on stage with him, so. >> Analyst: Wifi's too inexpensive and flexible. >> Wifi's cheap- >> Analyst: It's going to embed really well. Embedded in that. >> It's reached near ubiquity. It's unlicensed. So a lot of businesses don't want to manage their own spectrum, right? And it's great for this, right? >> Analyst: It does the job. >> For casual connectivity. >> Not today. >> Well, it does for the most part. Right now- >> For the most part. But never at these events. >> If it's engineered correctly, it will. Right? Where you need private 5G is when reliability is an absolute must. So, Chris, you and I visited the Port of Rotterdam, right? So they're putting 5G, private 5G there, but there's metal containers everywhere, right? And that's going to disrupt it. And so there are certain use cases where it makes sense. >> I've been in your basement, and you got some pretty intense equipment in there. You have private 5G in there. >> But for carpeted offices, it does not make sense to bring private. The economics don't make any sense. And you know, it runs hot. >> So where's it going to be used? Give us some examples of where we should be looking for. >> The early ones are obviously in mining, and you say in ports, in airports. It broadens cities because you've got so many moving parts in there, and always think about it, very expensive moving parts. The cranes in the port are normally expensive piece of kits. You're moving that, all that logistics around. So managing that over a distance where the wifi won't work over the distance. And in mining, we're going to see enormous expensive trucks moving around trying to- >> I think a great new use case though, so the Cleveland Browns actually the first NFL team to use it for facial recognition to enter the stadium. So instead of having to even pull your phone out, it says, hey Dave Vellante. You've got four tickets, can we check you all in? And you just walk through. You could apply that to airports. You could do put that in a hotel. You could walk up and check in. >> Analyst: Retail. >> Yeah, retail. And so I think video, realtime video analytics, I think it's a perfect use case for that. >> But you don't need 5G to do that. You could do that through another mechanism, couldn't you? >> You could do wire depending on how mobile you want to do it. Like in a stadium, you're pulling those things in and out all the time. You're moving 'em around and things, so. >> Yeah, but you're coming in at a static point. >> I'll take the contrary view here. >> See, we can't even agree on that. (men laugh) >> Yeah, I love it. Let's go. >> I believe the reliability of connection is very important, right? And the moving parts. What are the moving parts in wifi? We have the NIC card, you know, the wifi card in these suckers, right? In a machine, you know? They're bigger in size, and the radios for 5G are smaller in size. So neutralization is important part of the whole sort of progress to future, right? >> I think 5G costs as well. Yes, cost as well. But cost, we know that it goes down with time, right? We're already talking about 60, and the 5G stuff will be good. >> Actually, sorry, so one of the big boom areas at the moment is 4G LTE because the component price has come down so much, so it is affordable, you can afford to bring it all together. People don't, because we're still on 5G, if 5G standalone everywhere, you're not going to get a consistent service. So those components are unbelievably important. The skillsets of the people doing integration to bring them all together, unbelievably important. And the business case within the business. So I was talking to one of the heads of one of the big retail outlets in the UK, and I said, when are you going to do 5G in the stores? He said, well, why would I tear out all the wifi? I've got perfectly functioning wifi. >> Yeah, that's true. It's already there. But I think the technology which disappears in front of you, that's the best technology. Like you don't worry about it. You don't think it's there. Wifi, we think we think about that like it's there. >> And I do think wifi 5G switching's got to get easier too. Like for most users, you don't know which is better. You don't even know how to test it. And to your point, it does need to be invisible where the user doesn't need to think about it, right? >> Invisible. See, we came back to invisible. We talked about that yesterday. Telecom should be invisible. >> And it should be, you know? You don't want to be thinking about telecom, but at the same time, telecoms want to be more visible. They want to be visible like Netflix, don't they? I still don't see the path. It's fuzzy to me the path of how they're not going to repeat what happened with the over the top providers if they're invisible. >> Well, if you think about what telcos delivers to consumers, to businesses, then extending that connectivity into your home to help you support secure and extend your connection into Zeus's basement, whatever it is. Obviously that's- >> His awesome setup down there. >> And then in the business environment, there's a big change going on from the old NPLS networks, the old rigid structures of networks to SD1 where the control point is moved outside, which can be under control of the telco, could be under the control of a third party integrator. So there's a lot changing. I think we obsess about the relative role of the telco. The demand is phenomenal for connectivity. So address that, fulfill that. And if they do that, then they'll start to build trust in other areas. >> But don't you think they're going to address that and fulfill that? I mean, they're good at it. That's their wheelhouse. >> And it's a 1.6 trillion market, right? So it's not to be sniffed at. That's fixed on mobile together, obviously. But no, it's a big market. And do we keep changing? As long as the service is good, we don't move away from it. >> So back to the APIs, the eight APIs, right? >> I mean- >> Eight APIs is a joke actually almost. I think they released it too early. The release release on the main stage, you know? Like, what? What is this, right? But of course they will grow into hundreds and thousands of APIs. But they have to spend a lot of time and effort in that sort of context. >> I'd actually like to see the GSMA work with like AWS and Microsoft and VMware and software companies and create some standardization across their APIs. >> Yeah. >> I spoke to them yes- >> We're trying to reinvent them. >> Is that not what they're doing? >> No, they said we are not in the business of a defining standards. And they used a different term, not standard. I mean, seriously. I was like, are you kidding me? >> Let's face it, there aren't just eight APIs out there. There's so many of them. The TM forum's been defining when it's open data architecture. You know, the telcos themselves are defining them. The standards we talked about too earlier with Danielle. There's a lot of APIs out there, but the consistency of APIs, so we can bring them together, to bring all the different services together that will support us in our different lives is really important. I think telcos will do it, it's in their interest to do it. >> All right, guys, we got to wrap. Let's go around the horn here, starting with Chris, Zeus, and then Sarbjeet, just bring us home. Number one hot take from Mobile World Congress MWC23 day two. >> My favorite hot take is the willingness of all the participants who have been traditional telco players who looked inwardly at the industry looking outside for help for partnerships, and to build an ecosystem, a more open ecosystem, which will address our requirements. >> Zeus? >> Yeah, I was going to talk about ecosystem. I think for the first time ever, when I've met with the telcos here, I think they're actually, I don't think they know how to get there yet, but they're at least aware of the fact that they need to understand how to build a big ecosystem around them. So if you think back like 50 years ago, IBM and compute was the center of everything in your company, and then the ecosystem surrounded it. I think today with digital transformation being network centric, the telcos actually have the opportunity to be that center of excellence, and then build an ecosystem around them. I think the SIs are actually in a really interesting place to help them do that 'cause they understand everything top to bottom that I, you know, pre pandemic, I'm not sure the telcos were really understand. I think they understand it today, I'm just not sure they know how to get there. . >> Sarbjeet? >> I've seen the lot of RN demos and testing companies and I'm amazed by it. Everything is turning into software, almost everything. The parts which are not turned into software. I mean every, they will soon. But everybody says that we need the hardware to run something, right? But that hardware, in my view, is getting miniaturized, and it's becoming smaller and smaller. The antennas are becoming smaller. The equipment is getting smaller. That means the cost on the physicality of the assets is going down. But the cost on the software side will go up for telcos in future. And telco is a messy business. Not everybody can do it. So only few will survive, I believe. So that's what- >> Software defined telco. So I'm on a mission. I'm looking for the monetization path. And what I haven't seen yet is, you know, you want to follow the money, follow the data, I say. So next two days, I'm going to be looking for that data play, that potential, the way in which this industry is going to break down the data silos I think there's potential goldmine there, but I haven't figured out yet. >> That's a subject for another day. >> Guys, thanks so much for coming on. You guys are extraordinary partners of theCUBE friends, and great analysts and congratulations and thank you for all you do. Really appreciate it. >> Analyst: Thank you. >> Thanks a lot. >> All right, this is a wrap on day two MWC 23. Go to siliconangle.com for all the news. Where Rob Hope and team are just covering all the news. John Furrier is in the Palo Alto studio. We're rocking all that news, taking all that news and putting it on video. Go to theCUBE.net, you'll see everything on demand. Thanks for watching. This is a wrap on day two. We'll see you tomorrow. (soft music)

(soft corporate jingle) >> Announcer: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat jingle intro) >> Welcome back to Barcelona. We're here live at the Fira. (laughs) Just amazing day two of MWC23. It's packed today. It was packed yesterday. It's even more packed today. All the news is flowing. Check out siliconangle.com. John Furrier is in the studio in Palo Alto breaking all the news. And, we are here live. Really excited to have Udayan Mukherjee who's the Senior Fellow and Chief Architect of wireless product at Network and Edge for Intel. And, Manish Singh is back. He's the CTO of Telecom Systems Business at Dell Jets. Welcome. >> Thank you. >> Thank you >> We're going to talk about greening the network. I wonder, Udayan, if you could just set up why that's so important. I mean, it's obvious that it's an important thing, great for the environment, but why is it extra important in Telco? >> Yeah, thank you. Actually, I'll tell you, this morning I had a discussion with an operator. The first thing he said, that the electricity consumption is more expensive nowadays that total real estate that he's spending money on. So, it's like that is the number one thing that if you can change that, bring that power consumption down. And, if you talk about sustainability, look what is happening in Europe, what's happening in all the electricity areas. That's the critical element that we need to address. Whether we are defining chip, platforms, storage systems, that's the number one mantra right now. You know, reduce the power. Electricity consumption, because it's a sustainable planet that we are living in. >> So, you got CapEx and OpEx. We're talking about the big piece of OpEx is now power consumption? >> Power Consumption >> That's the point. Okay, so in my experience, servers are the big culprit for power consumption, which is powered by core semiconductors and microprocessors. So, what's the strategy to reduce the power consumption? You're probably not going to reduce the bill overall. You maybe just can keep pace, but from a technical standpoint, how do you attack that? >> Yeah, there are multiple defined ways of adding. Obviously the process technology, that micro (indistinct) itself is evolving to make it more low-power systems. But, even within the silicon, the server that we develop, if you look in a CPU, there is a lot of power states. So, if you have a 32 code platform, as an example, every code you can vary the frequency and the C-states, power states. So, if you look into any traffic, whether it's a radio access network, packet code. At any given time the load is not peak. So, your power consumption, actual what we are drawing from the wall, it also needs to vary with that. So, that's how if you look into this there's a huge savings. If you go to Intel booth or Ericson booth or anyone, you will see right now every possible, the packet code, radio access network, everything network. They're talking about our energy consumption, how they're lowering this. These states, as we call it power states, C-state P-state they've built in intel chip for a long time. The cloud providers are taking advantage of it. But Telcos, with even two generation before they used to actually switch it off in the bios. I say no, we need peak. Now, that thing is changing. Now, it's all like, how do I take advantage of the built in technologies? >> I remember the enterprise virtualization, Manish, was a big play. I remember PG&E used to give rebates to customers that would install virtualized software, VMware. >> And SSDs. >> Yeah. And SSDs, you know, yes. Because, the spinning disc was, but, nowhere near with a server consumption. So, how virtualized is the telco network? And then, what I'm saying is there other things, other knobs, you can of course turn. So, what's your perspective on this as a server player? >> Yeah, absolutely. Let me just back up a little bit and start at the big picture to share what Udayan said. Here, day two, every conversation I've had yesterday and today morning with every operator, every CTO, they're coming in and first topic they're talking about is energy. And, the reason is, A, it's the right thing to do, sustainability, but, it's also becoming a P&L issue. And, the reason it's becoming a P&L issue is because we are in this energy inflationary environment where the energy costs are constantly going up. So, it's becoming really important for the service providers to really drive more efficiency onto their networks, onto their infrastructure. Number one. Two, then to your question on what all knobs need to be turned on, and what are the knobs? So, Udayan talked about within the intel, silicon, the C-states, P-states and all these capabilities that are being brought up, absolutely important. But again, if we take a macro view of it. First of all, there are opportunities to do infrastructure audit. What's on, why is it on, does it need to be on right now? Number two, there are opportunities to do infrastructure upgrade. And, what I mean by that is as you go from previous generation servers to next generation servers, better cooling, better performance. And through all of that you start to gain power usage efficiency inside a data center. And, you take that out more into the networks you start to achieve same outcomes on the network site. Think about from a cooling perspective, air cooling but for that matter, even liquid cooling, especially inside the data centers. All opportunities around PUE, because PUE, power usage efficiency and improvement on PUE is an opportunity. But, I'll take it even further. Workloads that are coming onto it, core, RAN, these workloads based on the dynamic traffic. Look, if you look at the traffic inside a network, it's not constant, it's varied. As the traffic patterns change, can you reduce the amount of infrastructure you're using? I.e. reduce the amount of power that you're using and when the traffic loads are going up. So, the workloads themselves need to become more smarter about that. And last, but not the least. From an orchestration layer if you think about it, where you are placing these workloads, and depending on what's available, you can start to again, drive better energy outcomes. And, not to forget acceleration. Where you need acceleration, can you have the right hardware infrastructures delivering the right kind of accelerations to again, improve those energy efficiency outcomes. So, it's a complex problem. But, there are a lot of levers, lot of tools that are in place that the service providers, the technology builders like us, are building the infrastructure, and then the workload providers all come together to really solve this problem. >> Yeah, Udayan, Manish mentioned this idea of moving from one generation to a new generation and gaining benefits. Out there on the street, if you will. Most of the time it's an N plus 2 migration. It's not just moving from last generation to this next generation, but it's really a generation ago. So, those significant changes in the dynamics around power density and cooling are meaningful? You talk about where performance should be? We start talking about the edge. It's hard to have a full-blown raised data center floor edge everywhere. Do these advances fundamentally change the kinds of things that you can do at the base of a tower? >> Yeah, absolutely. Manish talked about that, the dynamic nature of the workload. So, we are using a lot of this AIML to actually predict. Like for example, your multiple force in a systems. So, why is the 32 core as a system, why is all running? So, your traffic profile in the night times. So, you are in the office areas, in the night has gone home and nowadays everybody's working from remote anyway. So, why is this thing a full blown, spending the TDP, the total power and extreme powers. You bring it down, different power states, C-states. We talked about it. Deeper C-states or P-states, you bring the frequency down. So, lot of those automation, even at the base of the tower. Lot of our deployment right now, we are doing a whole bunch of massive MIMO deployment. Virtual RAN in Verizon network. All actually cell-site deployment. Those eight centers are very close to the cell-site. And, they're doing aggressive power management. So, you don't have to go to a huge data centers, even there's a small rack of systems, four to five, 10 systems, you can do aggressive power management. And, you built it up that way. >> Okay. >> If I may just build on what Udayan said. I mean if you look at the radio access network, right? And, let's start at the bottom of the tower itself. The infrastructure that's going in there, especially with Open RAN, if you think about it, there are opportunities now to do a centralized RAN where you could do more BBU pooling. And, with that, not only on a given tower but across a given given coverage area, depending on what the traffics are, you can again get the infrastructure to become more efficient in terms of what traffic, what needs are, and really start to benefit. The pooling gains which is obviously going to give you benefit on the CapEx side, but from an energy standpoint going to give you benefits on the OpEx side of things. So that's important. The second thing I will say is we cannot forget, especially on the radio access side of things, that it's not just the bottom of the tower what's happening there. What's happening on the top of the tower especially with the radio, that's super important. And, that goes into how do you drive better PA efficiency, how do you drive better DPD in there? This is where again, applying AI machine learning there is a significant amount of opportunity there to improve the PA performance itself. But then, not only that, looking at traffic patterns. Can you do sleep modes, micro sleep modes to deep sleep modes. Turning down the cells itself, depending on the traffic patterns. So, these are all areas that are now becoming more and more important. And, clearly with our ecosystem of partners we are continuing to work on these. >> So we hear from the operators, it's an OpEx issue. It's hitting the P&L. They're in search of PUE of one. And, they've historically been wasteful, they go full throttle. And now, you're saying with intelligence you can optimize that consumption. So, where does the intelligence live? Is it in the rig. Where is it all throughout the network? Is it in the silicon? Maybe you could paint a picture as to where those smarts exist. >> I can start. It's across the stack. It starts, we talked about the C-states, P-states. If you want to take advantage of that, that intelligence is in the workload, which has to understand when can I really start to clock things down or turn off the cores. If you really look at it from a traffic pattern perspective you start to really look at a rig level where you can have power. And, we are working with the ecosystem partners who are looking at applying machine learning on that to see what can we really start to turn on, turn off, throttle things down, depending on what the, so yes, it's across the stack. And lastly, again, I'll go back to cannot forget orchestration, where you again have the ability to move some of these workloads and look at where your workload placements are happening depending on what infrastructure is and what the traffic needs are at that point in time. So it's, again, there's no silver bullet. It has to be looked across the stack. >> And, this is where actually if I may, last two years a sea change has happened. People used to say, okay there are C-states and P-states, there's silicon every code. OS operating system has a governor built in. We rely on that. So, that used to be the way. Now that applications are getting smarter, if you look at a radio access network or the packet core on the control plane signaling application, they're more aware of the what is the underlying silicon power state sleep states are available. So, every time they find some of these areas there's no enough traffic there, they immediately goes to a transition. So, the workload has become more intelligent. The rig application we talked about. Every possible rig application right now are apps on xApps. Most of them are on energy efficiency. How are they using it? So, I think lot more even the last two years. >> Can I just say one more thing there right? >> Yeah. >> We cannot forget the infrastructure as well, right? I mean, that's the most important thing. That's where the energy is really getting drawn in. And, constant improvement on the infrastructure. And, I'll give you some data points, right? If you really look at the power at servers, right? From 2013 to 2023, like a decade. 85% energy intensity improvement, right? So, these gains are coming from performance with better cooling, better technology applications. So, that's super critical, that's important. And, also to just give you another data point. Apart from the infrastructure what cache layers we are running and how much CPU and compute requirements are there, that's also important. So, looking at it from a cache perspective are we optimizing the required infrastructure blocks for radio access versus core? And again, really taking that back to energy efficiency outcomes. So, some of the work we've been doing with Wind River and Red Hat and some of our ecosystem partners around that for radio access network versus core. Really again, optimizing for those different use cases and the outcomes of those start to come in from an energy utilization perspective >> So, 85% improvement in power consumption. Of course you're doing, I don't know, 2, 300% more work, right? So, let's say, and I'm just sort of spit balling numbers but, let's say that historically powers on the P&L has been, I don't know, single digits, maybe 10%. Now, it's popping up the much higher. >> Udayan: Huge >> Right? >> I mean, I don't know what the number is. Is it over 20% in some cases or is it, do you have a sense of that? Or let's say it is. The objective I presume is you're probably not going to lower the power bill overall, but you're going to be able to lower the percent of cost on the OpEx as you grow, right? I mean, we're talking about 5G networks. So much more data >> Capacity increasing. >> Yeah, and so is it, am I right about that the carriers, the best they can hope for is to sort of stay even on that percentage or maybe somewhat lower that percentage? Or, do you think they can actually cut the bill? What's the goal? What are they trying to do? >> The goal is to cut the bill. >> It is! >> And the way you get started to cut the bill is, as I said, first of all on the radio side. Start to see where the improvements are and look, there's not a whole lot there to be done. I mean, the PS are as efficient as they can be, but as I said, there are things in DPD and all that still can be improved. But then, sleep modes and all, yes there are efficiencies in there. But, I'll give you one important, another interesting data point. We did a work with ACG Research on our 16G platform. The power edge service that we have recently launched based on Intel's Sapphire Rapids. And, if you look at the study there. 30% TCR reduction, 10% in CapEx gains, 30% in OpEx gains from moving away from these legacy monolithic architectures to cloud native architectures. And, a large part of that OpEx gain really starts to come from energy to the point of 800 metric tonnes of carbon reduction to the point of you could have, and if you really translate that to around 160 homes electric use per year, right? So yes, I mean the opportunity there is to reduce the bill. >> Wow, that's big, big goal guys. We got to run. But, thank you for informing the audience on the importance and how you get there. So, appreciate that. >> One thing that bears mentioning really quickly before we wrap, a lot of these things we're talking about are happening in remote locations. >> Oh, back to that point of distributed nature of telecom. >> Yes, we talked about a BBU being at the base of a tower that could be up on a mountain somewhere. >> No, you made the point. You can't just say, oh, hey we're going to go find ambient air or going to go... >> They don't necessarily... >> Go next to a waterfall. >> We don't necessarily have the greatest hydro tower. >> All right, we got to go. Thanks you guys. Alright, keep it right there. Wall to wall coverage is day two of theCUBE's coverage of MWC 23. Stay right there, we'll be right back. (corporate outro jingle)

>>Hello and run. Welcome back to the Cube's live coverage here. Day three of Cube's coverage, two sets, wall to wall coverage. Third set upstairs in the Executive Briefing Center. I'm John Furry, host of the Cube with Dave Alon. Two other hosts here. Lot of action. Dave. The cheer here is the CEO of MongoDB, exclusive post on Silicon Angle for your prior to the event. Thanks for doing that. Great to see >>You. Likewise. Nice to see you >>Coming on. See you David. So it's great to catch up. Prior to the event for that exclusive story on ecosystem, your perspective that resonated with a lot of the people. The traffic on that post and comments have been off the charts. I think we're seeing a ecosystem kind of surge and not change over, but like a an and ISV and new platform. So I really appreciate your perspective as a platform ISV for aws. What's it like? What's this event like? What's your learnings? What's your takeaway from your customers here this year? What's the most important story going on? >>First of all, I think being here is important for us because we have so many customers and partners here. In fact, if you look at the customers that Amazon themselves announced about two thirds of those customers or MongoDB customers. So we have a huge overlap in customers here. So just connecting with customers and partners has been important. Obviously a lot of them are thinking about their plans going to next year. So we're kind of meeting with them to think about what their priorities are and how we can help. And also we're sharing a little bit of our product roadmap in terms of where we're going and helping them think through like how they can best use Mongadi B as they think about their data strategy, you know, going to next year. So it's been a very productive end. We have a lot of people here, a lot of sales people, a lot of product people, and there's tons of customers here. So we can get a lot accomplished in a few days. >>Dave and I always talk on the cube. Well, Dave always goes to the TAM expansion question. Expanding your total stressful market, the market is changing and you guys have a great position growing positioned. How do you look at the total addressable market for Mongo changing? Where's the growth gonna come from? How do you see your role in the market and how does that impact your current business model? >>Yeah, our whole goal is to really enable developers to think about Mongo, to be first when they're building modern applications. So what we've done is first built a fir, a first class transactional platform and now we've kind expanding the platform to do things like search and analytics, right? And so we are really offering a broad set of capabilities. Now our primary focus is the developer and helping developers build these amazing applications and giving them tools to really do so in a very quick way. So if you think about customers like Intuit, customers like Canva, customers like, you know, Verizon, at and t, you know, who are just using us to really transform their business. It's either to build new applications quickly to do things at a certain level of performance of scale they've never done before. And so really enabling them to do so much more in building these next generation applications that they can build anywhere else. >>So I was listening to McDermott, bill McDermott this morning. Yeah. And you listen to Bill, you just wanna buy from the guy, right? He's amazing. But he was basically saying, look, companies like he was talking about ServiceNow that could help organizations digitally transform, et cetera, but make money or save money or in a good position. And I said, right, Mongo's definitely one of those companies. What are those conversations like here? I know you've been meeting with customers, it's a different environment right now. There's a lot of uncertainty. I, I was talking to one of your customers said, yeah, I'm up for renewal. I love Mongo. I'm gonna see if they can stage my payments a little bit. You know, things like that. Are those conversations? Yeah, you know, similar to what >>You having, we clearly customers are getting a little bit more prudent, but we haven't seen any kind of like slow down terms of deal cycles or, or elongated sales cycles. I mean, obviously different customers in different sectors are going through different issues. What we are seeing customers think about is like how can I, you know, either drive more efficiency in my business like and big part of that is modernization of my existing legacy tech stack. How can maybe consolidate to a fewer set of vendors? I think they like our broad platform story. You know, rather than using three or four different databases, they can use MongoDB to do everything. So that that resonates with customers and the fact that they can move fast, right? Developer productivity is a proxy for innovation. And so being able to move fast to either seize new opportunities or respond to new threats is really, you know, top of mind for still C level executive. >>So can your software, you're right, consolidation is the number one way in which people are save money. Can your software be deflationary? I mean, I mean that in a good way. So >>I was just meeting with a customer who was thinking about Mongo for their transactional platform, elastic for the search platform and like a graph database for a special use case. And, and we said you can do all that on MongoDB. And he is like, oh my goodness, I can consolidate everything. Have one elegant developer interface. I can keep all the data in one place. I can easily access that data. And that makes so much more sense than having to basically use a bunch of peace parts. And so that's, that's what we're seeing more and more interest from customers about. >>So one of the things I want to get your reaction to is, I was saying on the cube, now you can disagree with me if you want, but at, in the cloud native world at Cuban and Kubernetes was going through its hype cycle. The conversation went to it's getting boring. And that's good cause they want it to be boring. They don't want people to talk about the run time. They want it to be working. Working is boring. That's invisible. It's good, it's sticky, it's done. As you guys have such a great sticky business model, you got a great install base. Mongo works, people are happy, they like the product. So it's kind of working, I won't wanna say boring cuz that's, it's irrelevant. What's the exciting things that Mongo's bringing on top of the existing base of product that is gonna really get your clients and prospects enthused about the innovation from Mongo? What's what cuz it's, it's almost like electricity in a way. You guys are very utility in, in the way you do, but it's growing. But is there an exciting element coming that you see that they should pay attention to? What's, what's your >>Vision that, right, so if you look back over the last 10, 15 years, there's been big two big platform shifts, mobile and cloud. I think the next big platform shift is from what I call dumb apps to smart apps. So building more intelligence into applications. And what that means is automating human decision making and embedding that into applications. So we believe that to be a fundamentally a developer problem to solve, yes, you need data scientist to build the machine learning algorithms to train the models. Yeah. But ultimately you can't really deploy, deployed at scale unless you give developers the tools to build those smart applications that what we focused on. And a big part of that is what we call application driven analytics where people or can, can embed that intelligence into applications so that they can instead rather having humans involved, they can make decisions faster, drive to businesses more quickly, you know, shorten it's short and time to market, et cetera. >>And so your strategy to implement those smart apps is to keep targeting the developer Yes. And build on that >>Base. Correct. Exactly. So we wanna essentially democratize the ability for any customer to use our tools to build a smart applications where they don't have the resources of a Google or you know, a large tech company. And that's essentially resonating with our customer base. >>We, we were talking about this earlier after Swami's keynote, is most companies struggle to put data at the core of their business. And I don't mean centralizing it all in a single place as data's everywhere, but, but really organizing their company and democratizing data so people can make data decisions. So I think what you're saying, essentially Atlas is the platform that you're gonna inject intelligence into and allow developers to then build applications that are, you know, intelligent, smart with ai, machine intelligence, et cetera. And that's how the ones that don't have the resources of a Google or an Amazon become correct the, that kind of AI company if >>You, and that's, that's the whole purpose of a developer data platform is to enable them to have the tools, you know, to have very sophisticated analytics, to have the ability to do very sophisticated indexes, optimized for analytics, the ability to use data lakes for very efficient storage and retrieval of data to leverage, you know, edge devices to be able to capture and synchronize data. These are all critical elements to build these next generation applications. And you have to do that, but you don't want to stitch together a thousand primitives. You want to have a platform to do that. And that's where we really focus. >>You know, Dave, Dave and I, three, two days, Dave and I, Dave Ante and I have been talking a lot about developer productivity. And one observation that's now validated is that developers are setting the pace for innovation. Correct? And if you look at the how they, the language that they speak, it's not the same language as security departments, right? They speak almost like different languages, developer and security, and then you got data language. But the developers are making choices of self-service. They can accelerate, they're driving the behavior behavior into the organizations. And this is one of the things I wrote about on Friday last week was the organizational changes are changing cuz the developers set the pace. You can't force tooling down their throat. They're gonna go with what's easy, what's workable. If you believe that to be true, then all the security's gonna be in the developer pipeline. All the innovations we've driven off that high velocity developer site, we're seeing success of security being embedded there with the developers. What are you gonna bring up to that developer layer that's going to help with security, help with maybe even new things, >>Right? So, you know, it's, it's almost a cliche to say now software is in the world, right? Because every company's value props is driven by, it's either enabled to find or created through software. What that really means is that developers are eating all the work, right? And you're seeing, you saw in DevOps, right? Where developers basically enro encroach into the ops world and made infrastructure a programmable interface. You see developers, to your point, encroaching in security, embedding more and more security features into their applications. We believe the same thing's gonna happen with data scientists and business analysts where developers are gonna embed that functionality that was done by different domains in the Alex world and embed that capability into apps themselves. So these applications are just naturally smarter. So you don't need someone to look at a dashboard and say, aha, there's some insight here now I need to go make a decision. The application will do that for you and actually make that decision for you so you can move that much more quickly to run your business either more efficiently or to drive more, you know, revenue. >>Well the interesting thing about your business is cuz you know, you got a lot of transactional activity going on and the data, the way I would say what you just described is the data stack and the application stacks are coming together, right? And you're in a really good position, I think to really affect that. You think about we've, we've operationalized so many systems, we really haven't operationalized our data systems. And, and particularly as you guys get more into analytics, it becomes an interesting, you know, roadmap for Mongo and your customers. How do you see that? >>Yeah, so I wanna be clear, we're not trying to be a data warehouse, I get it. We're not trying to be like, you know, go compete. In fact, we have nice partnership with data bricks and so forth. What we are really trying to do is enable developers to instrument and build these applications that embed analytics. Like a good analogy I'd use is like Google Maps. You think about how sophisticated Google Maps has, and I use that because everyone has used Google Maps. Yeah. Like in the old, I was old enough to print out the directions, map quest exactly, put it on my lap and drive and look down. Now have this device that tells me, you know, if there's a traffic, if there's an accident, if there's something you know, going will reroute me automatically. And what that app is doing is embedding real time data into, into its decision making and making the decision for you so that you don't have to think about which road to take. Right? You, you're gonna see that happen across almost every application over the next X number of years where these applications are gonna become so much smarter and make these decisions for you. So you can just move so much more quickly. >>Yeah. Talk about the company, what status of the company, your growth plans. Obviously you're seeing a lot of news and Salesforce co CEO just resigned, layoffs at cnn, layoffs at DoorDash. You know, tech unfortunately is not impacted, thank God. I'm not that too bad. Certainly in cloud's not impacted it is impacting some of the buying behavior. We talked about that. What's going on with the company head count? What's your goals? How's the team doing? What are your priorities? >>Right? So we we're going after a big, big opportunity. You know, we recognize, obviously the market's a little choppy right now, but our long term, we're very bullish on the opportunity. We believe that we can be the modern developer data platform to build these next generation applications in terms of costs. We're obviously being a little bit more judicious about where we're investing, but we see big, big opportunities for us. And so our overall cost base will grow next year. But obviously we also recognize that there's ways to drive more efficiency. We're at a scale now. We're a 1.2 billion business. We're gonna announce our Q3 results next week. So we'll talk a little bit more about, you know, what we're seeing in the business next week. But we, we think we're a business that's growing fast. You know, we grew, you know, over 50, 50% and so, so we're pretty fast growing business. Yeah. You see? >>Yeah, Tuesday, December 6th you guys announce Exactly. Course is a big, we always watch and love it. So, so what I'm hearing is you're not, you're not stepping on the brakes, you're still accelerating growth, but not at all costs. >>Correct. The term we're using is profitable growth. We wanna, you know, you know, drive the business in a way that we think continues to seize the opportunity. But we also, we always exercise discipline. You know, I, I'm old enough where I had to deal with 2000 and 2008, so, you know, seen the movie before, I'm not 28 and have not seen these markets. And so obviously some are, you know, emerging leaders have not seen these kinds of markets before. So we're kind of helping them think about how to continue to be disciplined. And >>I like that reference to two thousand.com bubble and the financial crisis of 2008. I mentioned this to you when we chat, I'd love to get your thoughts. Now looking back for reinvent, Amazon wasn't a force in, in 2008. They weren't really that big debt yet. Know impact agility, wasn't it? They didn't hit that, they didn't hit that cruising altitude of the value pro cloud agility, time of value moving fast. Now they are. So this is the first time that they're a part of the economic equation. You're on, you're on in the middle of it with Amazon. They could be a catalyst to recover faster if plan properly. What's your CEO take on just that general and other CEOs might be watching and saying, Hey, you know, if I play this right, I could leverage the cloud. You know, Adams is leading into the cloud during a recession. Okay, I get that. But specifically there might be a tactic. What's your view on >>That? I mean, what, what we're seeing the, the hyperscalers do is really continue to kind of compete at the raw infrastructure level on storage, on compute, on network performance, on security to provide the, the kind of the building blocks for companies like Monga Beach really build on. So we're leveraging that price performance curve that they're pushing. You know, they obviously talk about Graviton three, they're talking about their training model chip sets and their inference model chip sets and their security chip sets. Which is great for us because we can leverage those capabilities to build upon that. And I think, you know, if you had asked me, you know, in 2008, would we be talking about chip sets in 2022? I'd probably say, oh, we're way beyond that. But what it really speaks to is those things are still so profoundly important. And I think that's where you can see Amazon and Google and Microsoft compete to provide the best underlying infrastructure where companies like mongadi we can build upon and we can help customers leverage that to really build the next generation. >>I'm not saying it's 2008 all over again, but we have data from 2008 that was the first major tailwind for the cloud. Yeah. When the CFO said we're going from CapEx to opex. So we saw that. Now it's a lot different now it's a lot more mature >>I think. I think there's a fine tuning trend going on where people are right sizing, fine tuning, whatever you wanna call it. But a craft is coming. A trade craft of cloud management, cloud optimization, managing the cost structures, tuning, it's a crafting, it's more of a craft. It's kind of seems like we're >>In that era, I call it cost optimization, that people are looking to say like, I know I'm gonna invest but I wanna be rational and more thoughtful about where I invest and why and with whom I invest with. Versus just like, you know, just, you know, everyone getting a 30% increase in their opex budgets every year. I don't think that's gonna happen. And so, and that's where we feel like it's gonna be an opportunity for us. We've kind of hit scap velocity. We've got the developer mind share. We have 37,000 customers of all shapes and sizes across the world. And that customer crown's only growing. So we feel like we're a place where people are gonna say, I wanna standardize among the >>Db. Yeah. And so let's get a great quote in his keynote, he said, if you wanna save money, the place to do it is in the cloud. >>You tighten the belt, which belt you tightening? The marketplace belt, the wire belt. We had a whole session on that. Tighten your belt thing. David Chair, CEO of a billion dollar company, MongoDB, continue to grow and grow and continue to innovate. Thanks for coming on the cube and thanks for participating in our stories. >>Thanks for having me. Great to >>Be here. Thank. Okay, I, Dave ante live on the show floor. We'll be right back with our final interview of the day after this short break, day three coming to close. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

>>We're back with Jerome West, product management security lead at for HCI at Dell Technologies Hyper-converged infrastructure. Jerome, welcome. >>Thank you, David. >>Hey, Jerome, In this series, A blueprint for trusted infrastructure, we've been digging into the different parts of the infrastructure stack, including storage, servers and networking, and now we want to cover hyperconverged infrastructure. So my first question is, what's unique about HCI that presents specific security challenges? What do we need to know? >>So what's unique about Hyperconverge infrastructure is the breadth of the security challenge. We can't simply focus on a single type of IT system, so like a server or a storage system or a virtualization piece of software. I mean, HCI is all of those things. So luckily we have excellent partners like VMware, Microsoft, and internal partners like the Dell Power Edge team, the Dell storage team, the Dell networking team, and on and on. These partnerships, in these collaborations are what make us successful from a security standpoint. So let me give you an example to illustrate. In the recent past, we're seeing growing scope and sophistication in supply chain attacks. This mean an attacker is going to attack your software supply chain upstream so that hopefully a piece of code, malicious code that wasn't identified early in the software supply chain is distributed like a large player, like a VMware or Microsoft or a Dell. So to confront this kind of sophisticated hard to defeat problem, we need short term solutions and we need long term solutions as well. >>So for the short term solution, the obvious thing to do is to patch the vulnerability. The complexity is for our HCI portfolio. We build our software on VMware, so we would have to consume a patch that VMware would produce and provide it to our customers in a timely manner. Luckily, VX Rail's engineering team has co engineered a release process with VMware that significantly shortens our development life cycle so that VMware will produce a patch and within 14 days we will integrate our own code. With the VMware release, we will have tested and validated the update and we will give an update to our customers within 14 days of that VMware release. That as a result of this kind of rapid development process, Vxl had over 40 releases of software updates last year for a longer term solution. We're partnering with VMware and others to develop a software bill of materials. We work with VMware to consume their software manifest, including their upstream vendors and their open source providers to have a comprehensive list of software components. Then we aren't caught off guard by an unforeseen vulnerability and we're more able to easily detect where the software problem lies so that we can quickly address it. So these are the kind of relationships and solutions that we can co engineer with effective collaborations with our, with our partners. >>Great, Thank you for that. That description. So if I had to define what cybersecurity resilience means to HCI or converged infrastructure, and to me my takeaway was you gotta have a short term instant patch solution and then you gotta do an integration in a very short time, you know, two weeks to then have that integration done. And then longer term you have to have a software bill of materials so that you can ensure the providence of all the components help us. Is that a right way to think about cybersecurity resilience? Do you have, you know, a additives to that definition? >>I do. I really think that site cybersecurity and resilience for hci, because like I said, it has sort of unprecedented breadth across our portfolio. It's not a single thing, it's a bit of everything. So really the strength or the secret sauce is to combine all the solutions that our partner develops while integrating them with our own layer. So let me, let me give you an example. So hci, it's a, basically taking a software abstraction of hardware functionality and implementing it into something called the virtualized layer. It's basically the virtual virtualizing hardware functionality, like say a storage controller, you could implement it in a hardware, but for hci, for example, in our VX rail portfolio, we, or our vxl product, we integrate it into a product called vsan, which is provided by our partner VMware. So that portfolio strength is still, you know, through our, through our partnerships. >>So what we do, we integrate these, these security functionality and features in into our product. So our partnership grows to our ecosystem through products like VMware, products like nsx, Verizon, Carbon Black and Bsphere. All of them integrate seamlessly with VMware. And we also leverage VMware's software, par software partnerships on top of that. So for example, VX supports multifactor authentication through bsphere integration with something called Active Directory Federation services for adfs. So there is a lot of providers that support adfs, including Microsoft Azure. So now we can support a wide array of identity providers such as Off Zero or I mentioned Azure or Active Directory through that partnership. So we can leverage all of our partners partnerships as well. So there's sort of a second layer. So being able to secure all of that, that provides a lot of options and flexibility for our customers. So basically to summarize my my answer, we consume all of the security advantages of our partners, but we also expand on that to make a product that is comprehensively secured at multiple layers from the hardware layer that's provided by Dell through Power Edge to the hyper-converged software that we build ourselves to the virtualization layer that we get through our partnerships with Microsoft and VMware. >>Great. I mean that's super helpful. You've mentioned nsx, Horizon, Carbon Black, all the, you know, the VMware component OTH zero, which the developers are gonna love. You got Azure identity, so it's really an ecosystem. So you may have actually answered my next question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway cuz you've got this software defined environment and you're managing servers and networking and storage with this software led approach, how do you ensure that the entire system is secure end to end? >>That's a really great question. So the, the answer is we do testing and validation as part of the engineering process. It's not just bolted on at the end. So when we do, for example, the xra is the market's only co engineered solution with VMware, other vendors sell VMware as a hyperconverged solution, but we actually include security as part of the co-engineering process with VMware. So it's considered when VMware builds their code and their process dovetails with ours because we have a secure development life cycle, which other products might talk about in their discussions with you that we integrate into our engineering life cycle. So because we follow the same framework, all of the, all of the codes should interoperate from a security standpoint. And so when we do our final validation testing when we do a software release, we're already halfway there in ensuring that all these features will give the customers what we promised. >>That's great. All right, let's, let's close pitch me, what would you say is the strong suit summarize the, the strengths of the Dell hyperconverged infrastructure and converged infrastructure portfolio specifically from a security perspective? Jerome? >>So I talked about how hyper hyper-converged infrastructure simplifies security management because basically you're gonna take all of these features that are abstracted in in hardware, they're now abstracted in the virtualization layer. Now you can manage them from a single point of view, whether it would be, say, you know, in for VX rail would be b be center, for example. So by abstracting all this, you make it very easy to manage security and highly flexible because now you don't have limitations around a single vendor. You have a multiple array of choices and partnerships to select. So I would say that is the, the key to making it to hci. Now, what makes Dell the market leader in HCI is not only do we have that functionality, but we also make it exceptionally useful to you because it's co engineered, it's not bolted on. So I gave the example of, I gave the example of how we, we modify our software release process with VMware to make it very responsive. >>A couple of other features that we have specific just to HCI are digitally signed LCM updates. This is an example of a feature that we have that's only exclusive to Dell that's not done through a partnership. So we digitally sign our software updates so you, the user can be sure that the, the update that they're installing into their system is an authentic and unmodified product. So we give it a Dell signature that's invalidated prior to installation. So not only do we consume the features that others develop in a seamless and fully validated way, but we also bolt on our own specific HCI security features that work with all the other partnerships and give the user an exceptional security experience. So for, for example, the benefit to the customer is you don't have to create a complicated security framework that's hard for your users to use and it's hard for your system administrators to manage. It all comes in a package. So it, it can be all managed through vCenter, for example, or, and then the specific hyper, hyper-converged functions can be managed through VxRail manager or through STDC manager. So there's very few pains of glass that the, the administrator or user ever has to worry about. It's all self contained and manageable. >>That makes a lot of sense. So you got your own infrastructure, you're applying your best practices to that, like the digital signatures, you've got your ecosystem, you're doing co-engineering with the ecosystems, delivering security in a package, minimizing the complexity at the infrastructure level. The reason Jerome, this is so important is because SecOps teams, you know, they gotta deal with cloud security, they gotta deal with multiple clouds. Now they have their shared responsibility model going across multiple, They got all this other stuff that they have to worry, they gotta secure containers and the run time and, and, and, and, and the platform and so forth. So they're being asked to do other things. If they have to worry about all the things that you just mentioned, they'll never get, you know, the, the securities is gonna get worse. So what my takeaway is, you're removing that infrastructure piece and saying, Okay guys, you now can focus on those other things that is not necessarily Dell's, you know, domain, but you, you know, you can work with other partners to, and your own teams to really nail that. Is that a fair summary? >>I think that is a fair summary because absolutely the worst thing you can do from a security perspective is provide a feature that's so unusable that the administrator disables it or other key security features. So when I work with my partners to define, to define and develop a new security feature, the thing I keep foremost in mind is, will this be something our users want to use in our administrators want to administer? Because if it's not, if it's something that's too difficult or onerous or complex, then I try to find ways to make it more user friendly and practical. And this is a challenge sometimes because we are, our products operate in highly regulated environments and sometimes they have to have certain rules and certain configurations that aren't the most user friendly or management friendly. So I, I put a lot of effort into thinking about how can we make this feature useful while still complying with all the regulations that we have to comply with. And by the way, we're very successful in a highly regulated space. We sell a lot of VxRail, for example, into the Department of Defense and banks and, and other highly regulated environments, and we're very successful >>There. Excellent. Okay, Jerome, thanks. We're gonna leave it there for now. I'd love to have you back to talk about the progress that you're making down the road. Things always, you know, advance in the tech industry and so would appreciate that. >>I would look forward to it. Thank you very much, Dave. >>You're really welcome. In a moment I'll be back to summarize the program and offer some resources that can help you on your journey to secure your enterprise infrastructure. I wanna thank our guests for their contributions and helping us understand how investments by a company like Dell can both reduce the need for dev sec up teams to worry about some of the more fundamental security issues around infrastructure and have greater confidence in the quality providence and data protection designed in to core infrastructure like servers, storage, networking, and hyper-converged systems. You know, at the end of the day, whether your workloads are in the cloud, OnPrem or at the edge, you are responsible for your own security. But vendor r and d and vendor process must play an important role in easing the burden faced by security devs and operation teams. And on behalf of the cube production content and social teams as well as Dell Technologies, we want to thank you for watching a blueprint for trusted infrastructure. Remember part one of this series as well as all the videos associated with this program, and of course, today's program are available on demand@thecube.net with additional coverage@siliconangle.com. And you can go to dell.com/security solutions dell.com/security solutions to learn more about Dell's approach to securing infrastructure. And there's tons of additional resources that can help you on your journey. This is Dave Valante for the Cube, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. We'll see you next time.

>>Welcome back everyone to the Cube and Horizon three.ai special presentation. I'm John Furrier, host of the Cube. We with Chris Hill, Sector head for strategic accounts and federal@horizonthree.ai. Great innovative company. Chris, great to see you. Thanks for coming on the Cube. >>Yeah, like I said, you know, great to meet you John. Long time listener. First time call. So excited to be here with >>You guys. Yeah, we were talking before camera. You had Splunk back in 2013 and I think 2012 was our first splunk.com. Yep. And boy man, you know, talk about being in the right place at the right time. Now we're at another inflection point and Splunk continues to be relevant and continuing to have that data driving security and that interplay. And your ceo, former CTO of Splunk as well at Horizons Neha, who's been on before. Really innovative product you guys have, but you know, Yeah, don't wait for a brief to find out if you're locking the right data. This is the topic of this thread. Splunk is very much part of this new international expansion announcement with you guys. Tell us what are some of the challenges that you see where this is relevant for the Splunk and the Horizon AI as you guys expand Node zero out internationally? >>Yeah, well so across, so you know, my role within Splunk was working with our most strategic accounts. And so I look back to 2013 and I think about the sales process like working with, with our small customers. You know, it was, it was still very siloed back then. Like I was selling to an IT team that was either using us for IT operations. We generally would always even say, yeah, although we do security, we weren't really designed for it. We're a log management tool. And you know, we, and I'm sure you remember back then John, we were like sort of stepping into the security space and in the public sector domain that I was in, you know, security was 70% of what we did. When I look back to sort of the transformation that I was, was witnessing in that digital transformation, you know when I, you look at like 2019 to today, you look at how the IT team and the security teams are, have been forced to break down those barriers that they used to sort of be silo away, would not communicate one, you know, the security guys would be like, Oh this is my BA box it, you're not allowed in today. >>You can't get away with that. And I think that the value that we bring to, you know, and of course Splunk has been a huge leader in that space and continues to do innovation across the board. But I think what we've we're seeing in the space that I was talking with Patrick Kauflin, the SVP of security markets about this, is that, you know, what we've been able to do with Splunk is build a purpose built solution that allows Splunk to eat more data. So Splunk itself, as you well know, it's an ingest engine, right? So the great reason people bought it was you could build these really fast dashboards and grab intelligence out of it, but without data it doesn't do anything, right? So how do you drive and how do you bring more data in? And most importantly from a customer perspective, how do you bring the right data in? >>And so if you think about what node zero and what we're doing in a Horizon three is that, sure we do pen testing, but because we're an autonomous pen testing tool, we do it continuously. So this whole thought of being like, Oh, crud like my customers, Oh yeah, we got a pen test coming up, it's gonna be six weeks. The wait. Oh yeah. You know, and everyone's gonna sit on their hands, Call me back in two months, Chris, we'll talk to you then. Right? Not, not a real efficient way to test your environment and shoot, we, we saw that with Uber this week. Right? You know, and that's a case where we could have helped. >>Well just real quick, explain the Uber thing cause it was a contractor. Just give a quick highlight of what happened so you can connect the >>Dots. Yeah, no problem. So there it was, I think it was one of those, you know, games where they would try and test an environment. And what the pen tester did was he kept on calling them MFA guys being like, I need to reset my password re to set my password. And eventually the customer service guy said, Okay, I'm resetting it. Once he had reset and bypassed the multifactor authentication, he then was able to get in and get access to the domain area that he was in or the, not the domain, but he was able to gain access to a partial part of the network. He then paralleled over to what would I assume is like a VA VMware or some virtual machine that had notes that had all of the credentials for logging into various domains. And so within minutes they had access. And that's the sort of stuff that we do under, you know, a lot of these tools. >>Like not, and I'm not, you know, you think about the cacophony of tools that are out there in a CTA orchestra architecture, right? I'm gonna get like a Zscaler, I'm gonna have Okta, I'm gonna have a Splunk, I'm gonna do this sore system. I mean, I don't mean to name names, we're gonna have crowd strike or, or Sentinel one in there. It's just, it's a cacophony of things that don't work together. They weren't designed work together. And so we have seen so many times in our business through our customer support and just working with customers when we do their pen test, that there will be 5,000 servers out there. Three are misconfigured. Those three misconfigurations will create the open door. Cause remember the hacker only needs to be right once, the defender needs to be right all the time. And that's the challenge. And so that's why I'm really passionate about what we're doing here at Horizon three. I see this my digital transformation, migration and security going on, which we're at the tip of the sp, it's why I joined say Hall coming on this journey and just super excited about where the path's going and super excited about the relationship with Splunk. I get into more details on some of the specifics of that. But you know, >>I mean, well you're nailing, I mean we've been doing a lot of things around super cloud and this next gen environment, we're calling it NextGen. You're really seeing DevOps, obviously Dev SecOps has, has already won the IT role has moved to the developer shift left as an indicator of that. It's one of the many examples, higher velocity code software supply chain. You hear these things. That means that it is now in the developer hands, it is replaced by the new ops, data ops teams and security where there's a lot of horizontal thinking. To your point about access, there's no more perimeter. So >>That there is no perimeter. >>Huge. A hundred percent right, is really right on. I don't think it's one time, you know, to get in there. Once you're in, then you can hang out, move around, move laterally. Big problem. Okay, so we get that. Now, the challenges for these teams as they are transitioning organizationally, how do they figure out what to do? Okay, this is the next step. They already have Splunk, so now they're kind of in transition while protecting for a hundred percent ratio of success. So how would you look at that and describe the challenges? What do they do? What is, what are the teams facing with their data and what's next? What do they, what do they, what action do they take? >>So let's do some vernacular that folks will know. So if I think about dev sec ops, right? We both know what that means, that I'm gonna build security into the app, but no one really talks about SEC DevOps, right? How am I building security around the perimeter of what's going inside my ecosystem and what are they doing? And so if you think about what we're able to do with somebody like Splunk is we could pen test the entire environment from soup to nuts, right? So I'm gonna test the end points through to it. So I'm gonna look for misconfigurations, I'm gonna, and I'm gonna look for credential exposed credentials. You know, I'm gonna look for anything I can in the environment. Again, I'm gonna do it at at light speed. And, and what we're, what we're doing for that SEC dev space is to, you know, did you detect that we were in your environment? >>So did we alert Splunk or the SIM that there's someone in the environment laterally moving around? Did they, more importantly, did they log us into their environment? And when did they detect that log to trigger that log? Did they alert on us? And then finally, most importantly, for every CSO out there is gonna be did they stop us? And so that's how we, we, we do this in, I think you, when speaking with Stay Hall, before, you know, we've come up with this boils U Loop, but we call it fine fix verify. So what we do is we go in is we act as the attacker, right? We act in a production environment. So we're not gonna be, we're a passive attacker, but we will go in un credentialed UN agents. But we have to assume, have an assumed breach model, which means we're gonna put a Docker container in your environment and then we're going to fingerprint the environment. >>So we're gonna go out and do an asset survey. Now that's something that's not something that Splunk does super well, you know, so can Splunk see all the assets, do the same assets marry up? We're gonna log all that data and think then put load that into the Splunk sim or the smoke logging tools just to have it in enterprise, right? That's an immediate future ad that they've got. And then we've got the fix. So once we've completed our pen test, we are then gonna generate a report and we could talk about about these in a little bit later. But the reports will show an executive summary the assets that we found, which would be your asset discovery aspect of that, a fixed report. And the fixed report I think is probably the most important one. It will go down and identify what we did, how we did it, and then how to fix that. >>And then from that, the pen tester or the organization should fix those. Then they go back and run another test. And then they validate through like a change detection environment to see, hey, did those fixes taste, play take place? And you know, SNA Hall, when he was the CTO of JS o, he shared with me a number of times about, he's like, Man, there would be 15 more items on next week's punch sheet that we didn't know about. And it's, and it has to do with how we, you know, how they were prioritizing the CVEs and whatnot because they would take all CVS was critical or non-critical. And it's like we are able to create context in that environment that feeds better information into Splunk and whatnot. That >>Was a lot. That brings, that brings up the, the efficiency for Splunk specifically. The teams out there. By the way, the burnout thing is real. I mean, this whole, I just finished my list and I got 15 more or whatever the list just can, keeps, keeps growing. How did Node zero specifically help Splunk teams be more efficient? Now that's the question I want to get at, because this seems like a very scalable way for Splunk customers and teams, service teams to be more efficient. So the question is, how does Node zero help make Splunk specifically their service teams be more efficient? >>So to, so today in our early interactions with building Splunk customers, what we've seen are five things, and I'll start with sort of identifying the blind spots, right? So kind of what I just talked about with you. Did we detect, did we log, did we alert? Did they stop node zero, right? And so I would, I put that at, you know, a a a more layman's third grade term. And if I was gonna beat a fifth grader at this game would be, we can be the sparring partner for a Splunk enterprise customer, a Splunk essentials customer, someone using Splunk soar, or even just an enterprise Splunk customer that may be a small shop with three people and, and just wants to know where am I exposed. So by creating and generating these reports and then having the API that actually generates the dashboard, they can take all of these events that we've logged and log them in. >>And then where that then comes in is number two is how do we prioritize those logs, right? So how do we create visibility to logs that are, have critical impacts? And again, as I mentioned earlier, not all CVEs are high impact regard and also not all are low, right? So if you daisy chain a bunch of low CVEs together, boom, I've got a mission critical AP CVE that needs to be fixed now, such as a credential moving to an NT box that's got a text file with a bunch of passwords on it, that would be very bad. And then third would be verifying that you have all of the hosts. So one of the things that Splunk's not particularly great at, and they, they themselves, they don't do asset discovery. So do what assets do we see and what are they logging from that? And then for, from, for every event that they are able to identify the, one of the cool things that we can do is actually create this low-code, no-code environment. >>So they could let, you know, float customers can use Splunk. So to actually triage events and prioritize that events or where they're being routed within it to optimize the SOX team time to market or time to triage any given event. Obviously reducing mtr. And then finally, I think one of the neatest things that we'll be seeing us develop is our ability to build glass tables. So behind me you'll see one of our triage events and how we build a lock Lockheed Martin kill chain on that with a glass table, which is very familiar to this Splunk community. We're going to have the ability, not too distant future to allow people to search, observe on those IOCs. And if people aren't familiar with an ioc, it's an incident of compromise. So that's a vector that we want to drill into. And of course who's better at drilling in into data and Splunk. >>Yeah, this is a critical, this is awesome synergy there. I mean I can see a Splunk customer going, Man, this just gives me so much more capability. Action actionability. And also real understanding, and I think this is what I wanna dig into, if you don't mind understanding that critical impact, okay. Is kind of where I see this coming. I got the data, data ingest now data's data. But the question is what not to log, You know, where are things misconfigured? These are critical questions. So can you talk about what it means to understand critical impact? >>Yeah, so I think, you know, going back to those things that I just spoke about, a lot of those CVEs where you'll see low, low, low and then you daisy chain together and you're suddenly like, oh, this is high now. But then to your other impact of like if you're a, if you're a a Splunk customer, you know, and I had, I had several of them, I had one customer that, you know, terabytes of McAfee data being brought in and it was like, all right, there's a lot of other data that you probably also wanna bring, but they could only afford, wanted to do certain data sets because that's, and they didn't know how to prioritize or filter those data sets. And so we provide that opportunity to say, Hey, these are the critical ones to bring in. But there's also the ones that you don't necessarily need to bring in because low CVE in this case really does mean low cve. >>Like an ILO server would be one that, that's the print server where the, your admin credentials are on, on like a, a printer. And so there will be credentials on that. That's something that a hacker might go in to look at. So although the CVE on it is low, if you daisy chain was something that's able to get into that, you might say, ah, that's high. And we would then potentially rank it giving our AI logic to say that's a moderate. So put it on the scale and we prioritize though, versus a, a vulner review scanner's just gonna give you a bunch of CVEs and good luck. >>And translating that if I, if I can and tell me if I'm wrong, that kind of speaks to that whole lateral movement. That's it. Challenge, right? Print server, great example, look stupid low end, who's gonna wanna deal with the print server? Oh, but it's connected into a critical system. There's a path. Is that kind of what you're getting at? >>Yeah, I used daisy chain. I think that's from the community they came from. But it's, it's just a lateral movement. It's exactly what they're doing. And those low level, low critical lateral movements is where the hackers are getting in. Right? So that's what the beauty thing about the, the Uber example is that who would've thought, you know, I've got my multifactor authentication going in a human made a mistake. We can't, we can't not expect humans to make mistakes. Were fall, were fallible, right? Yeah. The reality is is once they were in the environment, they could have protected themselves by running enough pen tests to know that they had certain exposed credentials that would've stopped the breach. Yeah. And they did not, had not done that in their environment. And I'm not poking. Yeah, >>They put it's interesting trend though. I mean it's obvious if sometimes those low end items are also not protected well. So it's easy to get at from a hacker standpoint, but also the people in charge of them can be fished easily or spear fished because they're not paying attention. Cause they don't have to. No one ever told them, Hey, be careful of what you collect. >>Yeah. For the community that I came from, John, that's exactly how they, they would meet you at a, an international event introduce themselves as a graduate student. These are national actor states. Would you mind reviewing my thesis on such and such? And I was at Adobe at the time though I was working on this and start off, you get the pdf, they opened the PDF and whoever that customer was launches, and I don't know if you remember back in like 2002, 2008 time frame, there was a lot of issues around IP being by a nation state being stolen from the United States and that's exactly how they did it. And John, that's >>Or LinkedIn. Hey I wanna get a joke, we wanna hire you double the salary. Oh I'm gonna click on that for sure. You know? Yeah, >>Right. Exactly. Yeah. The one thing I would say to you is like when we look at like sort of, you know, cuz I think we did 10,000 pen test last year is it's probably over that now, you know, we have these sort of top 10 ways that we think then fine people coming into the environment. The funniest thing is that only one of them is a, a CVE related vulnerability. Like, you know, you guys know what they are, right? So it's it, but it's, it's like 2% of the attacks are occurring through the CVEs, but yet there's all that attention spent to that. Yeah. And very little attention spent to this pen testing side. Yeah. Which is sort of this continuous threat, you know, monitoring space and, and, and this vulnerability space where I think we play such an important role and I'm so excited to be a part of the tip of the spear on this one. >>Yeah. I'm old enough to know the movie sneakers, which I love as a, you know, watching that movie, you know, professional hackers are testing, testing, always testing the environment. I love this. I gotta ask you, as we kind of wrap up here, Chris, if you don't mind the benefits to team professional services from this alliance, big news Splunk and you guys work well together. We see that clearly. What are, what other benefits do professional services teams see from the Splunk and Horizon three AI alliance? >>So if you're a, I think for, from our, our, from both of our partners as we bring these guys together and many of them already are the same partner, right? Is that first off, the licensing model is probably one of the key areas that we really excel at. So if you're an end user, you can buy for the enterprise by the enter of IP addresses you're using. But if you're a partner working with this, there's solution ways that you can go in and we'll license as to MSPs and what that business model on our MSPs looks like. But the unique thing that we do here is this c plus license. And so the Consulting Plus license allows like a, somebody a small to midsize to some very large, you know, Fortune 100, you know, consulting firms uses by buying into a license called Consulting Plus where they can have unlimited access to as many ips as they want. >>But you can only run one test at a time. And as you can imagine when we're going and hacking passwords and checking hashes and decrypting hashes, that can take a while. So, but for the right customer, it's, it's a perfect tool. And so I I'm so excited about our ability to go to market with our partners so that we underhand to sell, understand how not to just sell too or not tell just to sell through, but we know how to sell with them as a good vendor partner. I think that that's one thing that we've done a really good job building bringing into market. >>Yeah. I think also the Splunk has had great success how they've enabled partners and professional services. Absolutely. They've, you know, the services that layer on top of Splunk are multifold tons of great benefits. So you guys vector right into that ride, that wave with >>Friction. And, and the cool thing is that in, you know, in one of our reports, which could be totally customized with someone else's logo, we're going to generate, you know, so I, I used to work at another organization, it wasn't Splunk, but we, we did, you know, pen testing as a, as a for, for customers and my pen testers would come on site, they, they do the engagement and they would leave. And then another really, someone would be, oh shoot, we got another sector that was breached and they'd call you back, you know, four weeks later. And so by August our entire pen testings teams would be sold out and it would be like, wow. And in March maybe, and they'd like, No, no, no, I gotta breach now. And, and, and then when they do go in, they go through, do the pen test and they hand over a PDF and they pat you on the back and say, there's where your problems are, you need to fix it. And the reality is, is that what we're gonna generate completely autonomously with no human interaction is we're gonna go and find all the permutations that anything we found and the fix for those permutations and then once you fixed everything, you just go back and run another pen test. Yeah. It's, you know, for what people pay for one pen test, they could have a tool that does that. Every, every pat patch on Tuesday pen test on Wednesday, you know, triage throughout the week, >>Green, yellow, red. I wanted to see colors show me green, green is good, right? Not red. >>And once CIO doesn't want, who doesn't want that dashboard, right? It's, it's, it is exactly it. And we can help bring, I think that, you know, I'm really excited about helping drive this with the Splunk team cuz they get that, they understand that it's the green, yellow, red dashboard and, and how do we help them find more green so that the other guys are >>In Yeah. And get in the data and do the right thing and be efficient with how you use the data, Know what to look at. So many things to pay attention to, you know, the combination of both and then, then go to market strategy. Real brilliant. Congratulations Chris. Thanks for coming on and sharing this news with the detail around this Splunk in action around the alliance. Thanks for sharing, >>John. My pleasure. Thanks. Look forward to seeing you soon. >>All right, great. We'll follow up and do another segment on DevOps and IT and security teams as the new new ops, but, and Super cloud, a bunch of other stuff. So thanks for coming on. And our next segment, the CEO of Verizon, three AA, will break down all the new news for us here on the cube. You're watching the cube, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage.

(bright upbeat music) >> Welcome back, everyone, to the "Supercloud 22." I'm John Furrier, host of "The Cube." This is the Cloud-erati panel, the distinguished experts who have been there from day one, watching the cloud grow, from building clouds, and all open source stuff as well. Just great stuff. Good friends of "The Cube," and great to introduce back on "The Cube," Adrian Cockcroft, formerly with Netflix, formerly AWS, retired, now commentating here in "The Cube," as well as other events. Great to see you back out there, Adrian. Lori MacVittie, Cloud Evangelist with F5, also wrote a great blog post on supercloud, as well as Dave Vellante as well, setting up the supercloud conversation, which we're going to get into, and Chris Hoff, who's the CTO and CSO of LastPass who's been building clouds, and we know him from "The Cube" before with security and cloud commentary. Welcome, all, back to "The Cube" and supercloud. >> Thanks, John. >> Hi. >> All right, Lori, we'll start with you to get things going. I want to try to sit back, as you guys are awesome experts, and involved from building, and in the trenches, on the front lines, and Adrian's coming out of retirement, but Lori, you wrote the post setting the table on supercloud. Let's start with you. What is supercloud? What is it evolving into? What is the north star, from your perspective? >> Well, I don't think there's a north star yet. I think that's one of the reasons I wrote it, because I had a clear picture of this in my mind, but over the past, I don't know, three, four years, I keep seeing, in research, my own and others', complexity, multi-cloud. "We can't manage it. They're all different. "We have trouble. What's going on? "We can't do anything right." And so digging into it, you start looking into, "Well, what do you mean by complexity?" Well, security. Migration, visibility, performance. The same old problems we've always had. And so, supercloud is a concept that is supposed to overlay all of the clouds and normalize it. That's really what we're talking about, is yet another abstraction layer that would provide some consistency that would allow you to do the same security and monitor things correctly. Cornell University actually put out a definition way back in 2016. And they said, "It's an architecture that enables migration "across different zones or providers," and I think that's important, "and provides interfaces to everything, "makes it consistent, and normalizes the network," basically brings it all together, but it also extends to private clouds. Sometimes we forget about that piece of it, and I think that's important in this, so that all your clouds look the same. So supercloud, big layer on top, makes everything wonderful. It's unicorns again. >> It's interesting. We had multiple perspectives. (mumbles) was like Snowflake, who built on top of AWS. Jerry Chan, who we heard from earlier today, Greylock Penn's "Castles in the Cloud" saying, "Hey, you can have a moat, "you can build an advantage and have differentiation," so startups are starting to build on clouds, that's the native cloud view, and then, of course, they get success and they go to all the other clouds 'cause they got customers in the ecosystem, but it seems that all the cloud players, Chris, you commented before we came on today, is that they're all fighting for the customer's workloads on their infrastructure. "Come bring your stuff over to here, "and we'll make it run better." And all your developers are going to be good. Is there a problem? I mean, or is this something else happening here? Is there a real problem? >> Well, I think the north star's over there, by the way, Lori. (laughing) >> Oh, there it is. >> Right there. The supercloud north star. So indeed I think there are opportunities. Whether you call them problems or not, John, I think is to be determined. Most companies have, especially if they're a large enterprise, whether or not they've got an investment in private cloud or not, have spent time really trying to optimize their engineering and workload placement on a single cloud. And that, regardless of your choice, as we take the big three, whether it's Amazon, Google, or Microsoft, each of them have their pros and cons for various types of workloads. And so you'll see a lot of folks optimizing for a particular cloud, and it takes a huge effort up and down the stack to just get a single cloud right. That doesn't take into consideration integrations with software as a service, instantiated, oftentimes, on top of infrastructure of the service that you need to supplement where the obstruction layer ends in infrastructure of the service. You've seen most IS players starting to now move up-chain, as we predicted years ago, to platform as a service, but platforms of various types. So I definitely see it as an opportunity. Previous employers have had multiple clouds, but they were very specifically optimized for the types of workloads, for example, in, let's say, AWS versus GCP, based on the need for different types and optimized compute platforms that each of those providers ran. We never, in that particular case, thought about necessarily running the same workloads across both clouds, because they had different pricing models, different security models, et cetera. And so the challenge is really coming down to the fact that, what is the cost benefit analysis of thinking about multi-cloud when you can potentially engineer the resiliency or redundancy, all the in-season "ilities" that you might need to factor into your deployments on a single cloud, if they are investing at the pace in which they are? So I think it's an opportunity, and it's one that continues to evolve, but this just reminds me, your comments remind me, of when we were talking about OpenStack versus AWS. "Oh, if there were only APIs that existed "that everybody could use," and you saw how that went. So I think that the challenge there is, what is the impetus for a singular cloud provider, any of the big three, deciding that they're going to abstract to a single abstraction layer and not be able to differentiate from the competitors? >> Yeah, and that differentiation's going to be big. I mean, assume that the clouds aren't going to stay still like AWS and just not stop innovating. We see the devs are doing great, Adrian, open source is bigger and better than ever, but now that's been commercialized into enterprise. It's an ops problem. So to Chris's point, the cost benefit analysis is interesting, because do companies have to spin up multiple operations teams, each with specialized training and tooling for the clouds that they're using, and does that open up a can of worms, or is that a good thing? I mean, can you design for this? I mean, is there an architecture or taxonomy that makes it work, or is it just the cart before the horse, the solution before the problem? >> Yeah, well, I think that if you look at any large vendor... Sorry, large customer, they've got a bit of everything already. If you're big enough, you've bought something from everybody at some point. So then you're trying to rationalize that, and trying to make it make sense. And I think there's two ways of looking at multi-cloud or supercloud, and one is that the... And practically, people go best of breed. They say, "Okay, I'm going to get my email "from Google or Microsoft. "I'm going to run my applications on AWS. "Maybe I'm going to do some AI machine learning on Google, "'cause those are the strengths of the platforms." So people tend to go where the strength is. So that's multi-cloud, 'cause you're using multiple clouds, and you still have to move data and make sure they're all working together. But then what Lori's talking about is trying to make them all look the same and trying to get all the security architectures to be the same and put this magical layer, this unicorn magical layer that, "Let's make them all look the same." And this is something that the CIOs have wanted for years, and they keep trying to buy it, and you can sell it, but the trouble is it's really hard to deliver. And I think, when I go back to some old friends of ours at Enstratius who had... And back in the early days of cloud, said, "Well, we'll just do an API that abstracts "all the cloud APIs into one layer." Enstratius ended up being sold to Dell a few years ago, and the problem they had was that... They didn't have any problem selling it. The problem they had was, a year later, when it came up for renewal, the developers all done end runs around it were ignoring it, and the CIOs weren't seeing usage. So you can sell it, but can you actually implement it and make it work well enough that it actually becomes part of your core architecture without, from an operations point of view, without having the developers going directly to their favorite APIs around them? And I'm not sure that you can really lock an organization down enough to get them onto a layer like that. So that's the way I see it. >> You just defined- >> You just defined shadow shadow IT. (laughing) That's pretty- (crosstalk) >> Shadow shadow IT, yeah. >> Yeah, shadow shadow it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I mean, this brings up the question, I mean, is there really a problem? I mean, I guess we'll just jump to it. What is supercloud? If you can have the magic outcome, what is it? Enstratius rendered in with automation? The security issues? Kubernetes is hot. What is the supercloud dream? I guess that's the question. >> I think it's got easier than it was five, 10 years ago. Kubernetes gives you a bunch of APIs that are common across lots of different areas, things like Snowflake or MongoDB Atlas. There are SaaS-based services, which are across multiple clouds from vendors that you've picked. So it's easier to build things which are more portable, but I still don't think it's easy to build this magic API that makes them all look the same. And I think that you're going to have leaky abstractions and security being... Getting the security right's going to be really much more complex than people think. >> What about specialty superclouds, Chris? What's your view on that? >> Yeah, I think what Adrian is alluding to, those leaky abstractions, are interesting, especially from the security perspective, 'cause I think what you see is if you were to happen to be able to thin slice across a set of specific types of workloads, there is a high probability given today that, at least on two of the three major clouds, you could get SaaS providers that sit on those same infrastructure of the service clouds for you, string them together, and have a service that technically is abstracted enough from the things you care about to work on one, two, or three, maybe not all of them, but most SaaS providers in the security space, or identity space, data space, for example, coexist on at least Microsoft and AWS, if not all three, with Google. And so you could technically abstract a service to the point that you let that level of abstract... Like Lori said, no computer science problem could not be... So, no computer science problem can't be solved with more layers of abstraction or misdirection... Or redirection. And in that particular case, if you happen to pick the right vendors that run on all three clouds, you could possibly get close. But then what that really talks about is then, if you built your seven-layer dip model, then you really have specialty superclouds spanning across infrastructure of the service clouds. One for your identity apps, one for data and data layers, to normalize that, one for security, but at what cost? Because you're going to be charged not for that service as a whole, but based on compute resources, based on how these vendors charge across each cloud. So again, that cost-benefit ratio might start being something that is rather imposing from a budgetary perspective. >> Lori, weigh in on this, because the enterprise people love to solve complexity with more complexity. Here, we need to go the other way. It's a commodity. So there has to be a better way. >> I think I'm hearing two fundamental assumptions. One, that a supercloud would force the existing big three to implement some sort of equal API. Don't agree with that. There's no business case for that. There's no reason that could compel them to do that. Otherwise, we would've convinced them to do that, what? 10, 15 years ago when we said we need to be interoperable. So it's not going to happen there. They don't have a good reason to do that. There's no business justification for that. The other presumption, I think, is that we would... That it's more about the services, the differentiated services, that are offered by all of these particular providers, as opposed to treating the core IaaS as the commodity it is. It's compute, it's some storage, it's some networking. Look at that piece. Now, pull those together by... And it's not OpenStack. That's not the answer, it wasn't the answer, it's not the answer now, but something that can actually pull those together and abstract it at a different layer. So cloud providers don't have to change, 'cause they're not going to change, but if someone else were to build that architecture to say, "all right, I'm going to treat all of this compute "so you can run your workloads," as Chris pointed out, "in the best place possible. "And we'll help you do that "by being able to provide those cost benefit analysis, "'What's the best performance, what are you doing,' "And then provide that as a layer." So I think that's really where supercloud is going, 'cause I think that's what a lot of the market actually wants in terms of where they want to run their workloads, because we're seeing that they want to run workloads at the edge, "a lot closer to me," which is yet another factor that we have to consider, and how are you going to be moving individual workloads around? That's the holy grail. Let's move individual workloads to where they're the best performance, the security, cost optimized, and then one layer up. >> Yeah, I think so- >> John Considine, who ultimately ran CloudSwitch, that sold to Verizon, as well as Tom Gillis, who built Bracket, are both rolling in their graves, 'cause what you just described was exactly that. (Lori laughing) Well, they're not even dead yet, so I can't say they're rolling in their graves. Sorry, Tom. Sorry, John. >> Well, how do hyperscalers keep their advantage with all this? I mean, to that point. >> Native services and managed services on top of it. Look how many flavors of managed Kubernetes you have. So you have a choice. Roll your own, or go with a managed service, and then differentiate based on the ability to take away and simplify some of that complexity. Doesn't mean it's more secure necessarily, but I do think we're seeing opportunities where those guys are fighting tooth and nail to keep you on a singular cloud, even though, to Lori's point, I agree, I don't think it's about standardized APIs, 'cause I think that's never going to happen. I do think, though, that SaaS-y supercloud model that we were talking about, layering SaaS that happens to span all the three infrastructure of the service are probably more in line with what Lori was talking about. But I do think that portability of workload is given to you today within lots of ways. But again, how much do you manage, and how much performance do you give up by running additional abstraction layers? And how much security do you give up by having to roll your own and manage that? Because the whole point was, in many cases... Cloud is using other people's computers, so in many cases, I want to manage as little of it as I possibly can. >> I like this whole SaaS angle, because if you had the old days, you're on Amazon Web Services, hey, if you build a SaaS application that runs on Amazon, you're all great, you're born in the cloud, just like that generations of startups. Great. Now when you have this super pass layer, as Dave Vellante was riffing on his analysis, and Lori, you were getting into this pass layer that's kind of like SaaS-y, what's the SaaS equation look like? Because that, to me, sounds like a supercloud version of saying, "I have a workload that runs on all the clouds equally." I just don't think that's ever going to happen. I agree with you, Chris, on that one. But I do see that you can have an abstraction that says, "Hey, I don't really want to get in the weeds. "I don't want to spend a lot of ops time on this. "I just want it to run effectively, and magic happens," or, as you said, some layer there. How does that work? How do you see this super pass layer, if anything, enabling a different SaaS game? >> I think you hit on it there. The last like 10 or so years, we've been all focused on developers and developer productivity, and it's all about the developer experience, and it's got to be good for them, 'cause they're the kings. And I think the next 10 years are going to be very focused on operations, because once you start scaling out, it's not about developers. They can deliver fast or slow, it doesn't matter, but if you can't scale it out, then you've got a real problem. So I think that's an important part of it, is really, what is the ops experience, and what is the best way to get those costs down? And this would serve that purpose if it was done right, which, we can argue about whether that's possible or not, but I don't have to implement it, so I can say it's possible. >> Well, are we going to be getting into infrastructure as code moves into "everything is code," security, data, (laughs) applications is code? I mean, "blank" is code, fill in the blank. (Lori laughing) >> Yeah, we're seeing more of that with things like CDK and Pulumi, where you are actually coding up using a real language rather than the death by YAML or whatever. How much YAML can you take? But actually having a real language so you're not trying to do things in parsing languages. So I think that's an interesting trend. You're getting some interesting templates, and I like what... I mean, the counterexample is that if you just go deep on one vendor, then maybe you can go faster and it is simpler. And one of my favorite vendor... Favorite customers right now that I've been talking to is Liberty Mutual. Went very deep and serverless first on AWS. They're just doing everything there, and they're using CDK Patterns to do it, and they're going extremely fast. There's a book coming out called "The Value Flywheel" by Dave Anderson, it's coming out in a few months, to just detail what they're doing, but that's the counterargument. If you could pick one vendor, you can go faster, you can get that vendor to do more for you, and maybe get a bigger discount so you're not splitting your discounts across vendors. So that's one aspect of it. But I think, fundamentally, you're going to find the CIOs and the ops people generally don't like sitting on one vendor. And if that single vendor is a horizontal platform that's trying to make all the clouds look the same, now you're locked into whatever that platform was. You've still got a platform there. There's still something. So I think that's always going to be something that the CIOs want, but the developers are always going to just pick whatever the best tool for building the thing is. And a analogy here is that the developers are dating and getting married, and then the operations people are running the family and getting divorced. And all the bad parts of that cycle are in the divorce end of it. You're trying to get out of a vendor, there's lawyers, it's just a big mess. >> Who's the lawyer in this example? (crosstalk) >> Well... (laughing) >> Great example. (crosstalk) >> That's why ops people don't like lock-in, because they're the ones trying to unlock. They aren't the ones doing the lock-in. They're the ones unlocking, when developers, if you separate the two, are the ones who are going, picking, having the fun part of it, going, trying a new thing. So they're chasing a shiny object, and then the ops people are trying to untangle themselves from the remains of that shiny object a few years later. So- >> Aren't we- >> One way of fixing that is to push it all together and make it more DevOps-y. >> Yeah, that's right. >> But that's trying to put all the responsibilities in one place, like more continuous improvement, but... >> Chris, what's your reaction to that? Because you're- >> No, that's exactly what I was going to bring up, yeah, John. And 'cause we keep saying "devs," "dev," and "ops" and I've heard somewhere you can glue those two things together. Heck, you could even include "sec" in the middle of it, and "DevSecOps." So what's interesting about what Adrian's saying though, too, is I think this has a lot to do with how you structure your engineering teams and how you think about development versus operations and security. So I'm building out a team now that very much makes use of, thanks to my brilliant VP of Engineering, a "Team Topologies" approach, which is a very streamlined and product oriented way of thinking about, for example, in engineering, if you think about team structures, you might have people that build the front end, build the middle tier, and the back end, and then you have a product that needs to make use of all three components in some form. So just from getting stuff done, their ability then has to tie to three different groups, versus building a team that's streamlined that ends up having front end, middleware, and backend folks that understand and share standards but are able to uncork the velocity that's required to do that. So if you think about that, and not just from an engineering development perspective, but then you couple in operations as a foundational layer that services them with embedded capabilities, we're putting engineers and operations teams embedded in those streamlined teams so that they can run at the velocity that they need to, they can do continuous integration, they can do continuous deployment. And then we added CS, which is continuously secure, continuous security. So instead of having giant, centralized teams, we're thinking there's a core team, for example, a foundational team, that services platform, makes sure all the trains are running on time, that we're doing what we need to do foundationally to make the environments fully dev and operator and security people functional. But then ultimately, we don't have these big, monolithic teams that get into turf wars. So, to Adrian's point about, the operators don't like to be paned in, well, they actually have a say, ultimately, in how they architect, deploy, manage, plan, build, and operate those systems. But at the same point in time, we're all looking at that problem across those teams and go... Like if one streamline team says, "I really want to go run on Azure, "because I like their services better," the reality is the foundational team has a larger vote versus opinion on whether or not, functionally, we can satisfy all of the requirements of the other team. Now, they may make a fantastic business case and we play rock, paper, scissors, and we do that. Right now, that hasn't really happened. We look at the balance of AWS, we are picking SaaS-y, supercloud vendors that will, by the way, happen to run on three platforms, if we so choose to expand there. So we have a similar interface, similar capability, similar processes, but we've made the choice at LastPass to go all in on AWS currently, with respect to how we deliver our products, for all the reasons we just talked about. But I do think that operations model and how you build your teams is extremely important. >> Yeah, and to that point- >> And has the- (crosstalk) >> The vendors themselves need optionality to the customer, what you're saying. So, "I'm going to go fast, "but I need to have that optionality." I guess the question I have for you guys is, what is today's trade-off? So if the decision point today is... First of all, I love the go-fast model on one cloud. I think that's my favorite when I look at all this, and then with the option, knowing that I'm going to have the option to go to multiple clouds. But everybody wants lock-in on the vendor side. Is that scale, is that data advantage? I mean, so the lock-in's a good question, and then also the trade-offs. What do people have to do today to go on a supercloud journey to have an ideal architecture and taxonomy, and what's the right trade-offs today? >> I think that the- Sorry, just put a comment and then let Lori get a word in, but there's a lot of... A lot of the market here is you're building a product, and that product is a SaaS product, and it needs to run somewhere. And the customers that you're going to... To get the full market, you need to go across multiple suppliers, most people doing AWS and Azure, and then with Google occasionally for some people. But that, I think, has become the pattern that most of the large SaaS platforms that you'd want to build out of, 'cause that's the fast way of getting something that's going to be stable at scale, it's got functionality, you'd have to go invest in building it and running it. Those platforms are just multi-cloud platforms, they're running across them. So Snowflake, for example, has to figure out how to make their stuff work on more than one cloud. I mean, they started on one, but they're going across clouds. And I think that that is just the way it's going to be, because you're not going to get a broad enough view into the market, because there isn't a single... AWS doesn't have 100% of the market. It's maybe a bit more than them, but Azure has got a pretty solid set of markets where it is strong, and it's market by market. So in some areas, different people in some places in the world, and different vertical markets, you'll find different preferences. And if you want to be across all of them with your data product, or whatever your SaaS product is, you're just going to have to figure this out. So in some sense, the supercloud story plays best with those SaaS providers like the Snowflakes of this world, I think. >> Lori? >> Yeah, I think the SaaS product... Identity, whatever, you're going to have specialized. SaaS, superclouds. We already see that emerging. Identity is becoming like this big SaaS play that crosses all clouds. It's not just for one. So you get an evolution going on where, yes, I mean, every vendor who provides some kind of specific functionality is going to have to build out and be multi-cloud, as it were. It's got to work equally across them. And the challenge, then, for them is to make it simple for both operators and, if required, dev. And maybe that's the other lesson moving forward. You can build something that is heaven for ops, but if the developers won't use it, well, then you're not going to get it adopted. But if you make it heaven for the developers, the ops team may not be able to keep it secure, keep everything. So maybe we have to start focusing on both, make it friendly for both, at least. Maybe it won't be the perfect experience, but gee, at least make it usable for both sides of the equation so that everyone can actually work in concert, like Chris was saying. A more comprehensive, cohesive approach to delivery and deployment. >> All right, well, wrapping up here, I want to just get one final comment from you guys, if you don't mind. What does supercloud look like in five years? What's the Nirvana, what's the steady state of supercloud in five to 10 years? Or say 10 years, make it easier. (crosstalk) Five to 10 years. Chris, we'll start with you. >> Wow. >> Supercloud, what's it look like? >> Geez. A magic pane, a single pane of glass. (laughs) >> Yeah, I think- >> Single glass of pain. >> Yeah, a single glass of pain. Thank you. You stole my line. Well, not mine, but that's the one I was going to use. Yeah, I think what is really fascinating is ultimately, to answer that question, I would reflect on market consolidation and market dynamics that happens even in the SaaS space. So we will see SaaS companies combining in focal areas to be able to leverage the positions, let's say, in the identity space that somebody has built to provide a set of compelling services that help abstract that identity problem or that security problem or that instrumentation and observability problem. So take your favorite vendors today. I think what we'll end up seeing is more consolidation in SaaS offerings that run on top of infrastructure of the service offerings to where a supercloud might look like something I described before. You have the combination of your favorite interoperable identity, observability, security, orchestration platforms run across them. They're sold as a stack, whether it be co-branded by an enterprise vendor that sells all of that and manages it for you or not. But I do think that... You talked about, I think you said, "Is this an innovator's dilemma?" No, I think it's an integrator's dilemma, as it has always ultimately been. As soon as you get from Genesis to Bespoke Build to product to then commoditization, the cycle starts anew. And I think we've gotten past commoditization, and we're looking at niche areas. So I see just the evolution, not necessarily a revolution, of what we're dealing with today as we see more consolidation in the marketplace. >> Lori, what's your take? Five years, 10 years, what does supercloud look like? >> Part of me wants to take the pie in the sky unicorn approach. "No, it will be beautiful. "One button, and things will happen," but I've seen this cycle many times before, and that's not going to happen. And I think Chris has got it pretty close to what I see already evolving. Those different kinds of super services, basically. And that's really what we're talking about. We call them SaaS, but they're... X is a service. Everything is a service, and it's really a supercloud that can run anywhere, but it presents a different interface, because, well, it's easier. And I think that's where we're going to go, and that's just going to get more refined. And yes, a lot of consolidation, especially on the observability side, but that's also starting to consume the security side, which is really interesting to watch. So that could be a little different supercloud coming on there that's really focused on specific types of security, at least, that we'll layer across, and then we'll just hook them all together. It's an API first world, and it seems like that's going to be our standard for the next while of how we integrate everything. So superclouds or APIs. >> Awesome. Adrian... Adrian, take us home. >> Yeah, sure. >> What's your- I think, and just picking up on Lori's point that these are web services, meaning that you can just call them from anywhere, they don't have to run everything in one place, they can stitch it together, and that's really meant... It's somewhat composable. So in practice, people are going to be composable. Can they compose their applications on multiple platforms? But I think the interesting thing here is what the vendors do, and what I'm seeing is vendors running software on other vendors. So you have Google building platforms that, then, they will support on AWS and Azure and vice versa. You've got AWS's distro of Kubernetes, which they now give you as a distro so you can run it on another platform. So I think that trend's going to continue, and it's going to be, possibly, you pick, say, an AWS or a Google software stack, but you don't run it all on AWS, you run it in multiple places. Yeah, and then the other thing is the third tier, second, third tier vendors, like, I mean, what's IBM doing? I think in five years time, IBM is going to be a SaaS vendor running on the other clouds. I mean, they're already halfway there. To be a bit more controversial, I guess it's always fun to... Like I don't work for a corporate entity now. No one tells me what I can say. >> Bring it on. >> How long can Google keep losing a billion dollars a quarter? They've either got to figure out how to make money out of this thing, or they'll end up basically being a software stack on another cloud platform as their, likely, actual way they can make money on it. Because you've got to... And maybe Oracle, is that a viable cloud platform that... You've got to get to some level of viability. And I think the second, third tier of vendors in five, 10 years are going to be running on the primary platform. And I think, just the other final thing that's really driving this right now. If you try and place an order right now for a piece of equipment for your data center, key pieces of equipment are a year out. It's like trying to buy a new fridge from like Sub-Zero or something like that. And it's like, it's a year. You got to wait for these things. Any high quality piece of equipment. So you go to deploy in your data center, and it's like, "I can't get stuff in my data center. "Like, the key pieces I need, I can't deploy a whole system. "We didn't get bits and pieces of it." So people are going to be cobbling together, or they're going, "No, this is going to cloud, because the cloud vendors "have a much stronger supply chain to just be able "to give you the system you need. "They've got the capacity." So I think we're going to see some pandemic and supply chain induced forced cloud migrations, just because you can't build stuff anymore outside the- >> We got to accelerate supercloud, 'cause they have the supply. They are the chain. >> That's super smart. That's the benefit of going last. So I'm going to scoop in real quick. I can't believe we can call this "Web3 Supercloud," because none of us said "Web3." Don't forget DAO. (crosstalk) (indistinct) You have blockchain, blockchain superclouds. I mean, there's some very interesting distributed computing stuff there, but we'll have to do- >> (crosstalk) We're going to call that the "Cubeverse." The "Cubeverse" is coming. >> Oh, the "Cubeverse." All right. >> We will be... >> That's very meta. >> In the metaverse, Cubeverse soon. >> "Stupor cloud," perhaps. But anyway, great points, Adrian and Lori. Loved it. >> Chris, great to see you. Adrian, Lori, thanks for coming on. We've known each other for a long time. You guys are part of the cloud-erati, the group that has been in there from day one, and watched it evolve, and you get the scar tissue to prove it, and the experience. So thank you so much for sharing your commentary. We'll roll this up and make it open to everybody as additional content. We'll call this the "outtakes," the longer version. But really appreciate your time, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thanks so much. >> Okay, we'll be back with more "Supercloud 22" right after this. (bright upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> After a two year hiatus, AWS re:Inforce is back on as an in-person event in Boston next week. Like the All-Star break in baseball, re:Inforce gives us an opportunity to evaluate the cyber security market overall, the state of cloud security and cross cloud security and more specifically what AWS is up to in the sector. Welcome to this week's Wikibon cube insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis we'll share our view of what's changed since our last cyber update in May. We'll look at the macro environment, how it's impacting cyber security plays in the market, what the ETR data tells us and what to expect at next week's AWS re:Inforce. We start this week with a checkpoint from Breaking Analysis contributor and stock trader Chip Simonton. We asked for his assessment of the market generally in cyber stocks specifically. So we'll summarize right here. We've kind of moved on from a narrative of the sky is falling to one where the glass is half empty you know, and before today's big selloff it was looking more and more like glass half full. The SNAP miss has dragged down many of the big names that comprise the major indices. You know, earning season as always brings heightened interest and this time we're seeing many cross currents. It starts as usual with the banks and the money centers. With the exception of JP Morgan the numbers were pretty good according to Simonton. Investment banks were not so great with Morgan and Goldman missing estimates but in general, pretty positive outlooks. But the market also shrugged off IBM's growth. And of course, social media because of SNAP is getting hammered today. The question is no longer recession or not but rather how deep the recession will be. And today's PMI data was the weakest since the start of the pandemic. Bond yields continue to weaken and there's a growing consensus that Fed tightening may be over after September as commodity prices weaken. Now gas prices of course are still high but they've come down. Tesla, Nokia and AT&T all indicated that supply issues were getting better which is also going to help with inflation. So it's no shock that the NASDAQ has done pretty well as beaten down as tech stocks started to look oversold you know, despite today's sell off. But AT&T and Verizon, they blamed their misses in part on people not paying their bills on time. SNAP's huge miss even after guiding lower and then refusing to offer future guidance took that stock down nearly 40% today and other social media stocks are off on sympathy. Meta and Google were off, you know, over 7% at midday. I think at one point hit 14% down and Google, Meta and Twitter have all said they're freezing new hires. So we're starting to see according to Simonton for the first time in a long time, the lower income, younger generation really feeling the pinch of inflation. Along of course with struggling families that have to choose food and shelter over discretionary spend. Now back to the NASDAQ for a moment. As we've been reporting back in mid-June and NASDAQ was off nearly 33% year to date and has since rallied. It's now down about 25% year to date as of midday today. But as I say, it had been, you know much deeper back in early June. But it's broken that downward trend that we talked about where the highs are actually lower and the lows are lower. That's started to change for now anyway. We'll see if it holds. But chip stocks, software stocks, and of course the cyber names have broken those down trends and have been trading above their 50 day moving averages for the first time in around four months. And again, according to Simonton, we'll see if that holds. If it does, that's a positive sign. Now remember on June 24th, we recorded a Breaking Analysis and talked about Qualcomm trading at a 12 X multiple with an implied 15% growth rate. On that day the stock was 124 and it surpassed 155 earlier this month. That was a really good call by Simonton. So looking at some of the cyber players here SailPoint is of course the anomaly with the Thoma Bravo 7 billion acquisition of the company holding that stock up. But the Bug ETF of basket of cyber stocks has definitely improved. When we last reported on cyber in May, CrowdStrike was off 23% year to date. It's now off 4%. Palo Alto has held steadily. Okta is still underperforming its peers as it works through the fallout from the breach and the ingestion of its Auth0 acquisition. Meanwhile, Zscaler and SentinelOne, those high flyers are still well off year to date, with Ping Identity and CyberArk not getting hit as hard as their valuations hadn't run up as much. But virtually all these tech stocks generally in cyber issues specifically, they've been breaking their down trend. So it will now come down to earnings guidance in the coming months. But the SNAP reaction is quite stunning. I mean, the environment is slowing, we know that. Ad spending gets cut in that type of market, we know that too. So it shouldn't be a huge surprise to anyone but as Chip Simonton says, this shows that sellers are still in control here. So it's going to take a little while to work through that despite the positive signs that we're seeing. Okay. We also turned to our friend Eric Bradley from ETR who follows these markets quite closely. He frequently interviews CISOs on his program, on his round tables. So we asked to get his take and here's what ETR is saying. Again, as we've reported while CIOs and IT buyers have tempered spending expectations since December and early January when they called for an 8% plus spending growth, they're still expecting a six to seven percent uptick in spend this year. So that's pretty good. Security remains the number one priority and also is the highest ranked sector in the ETR data set when you measure in terms of pervasiveness in the study. Within security endpoint detection and extended detection and response along with identity and privileged account management are the sub-sectors with the most spending velocity. And when you exclude Microsoft which is just dominant across the board in so many sectors, CrowdStrike has taken over the number one spot in terms of spending momentum in ETR surveys with CyberArk and Tanium showing very strong as well. Okta has seen a big dropoff in net score from 54% last survey to 45% in July as customers maybe put a pause on new Okta adoptions. That clearly shows in the survey. We'll talk about that in a moment. Look Okta still elevated in terms of spending momentum, but it doesn't have the dominant leadership position it once held in spend velocity. Year on year, according to ETR, Tenable and Elastic are seeing the biggest jumps in spending momentum, with SailPoint, Tanium, Veronis, CrowdStrike and Zscaler seeing the biggest jump in new adoptions since the last survey. Now on the downside, SonicWall, Symantec, Trellic which is McAfee, Barracuda and TrendMicro are seeing the highest percentage of defections and replacements. Let's take a deeper look at what the ETR data tells us about the cybersecurity space. This is a popular view that we like to share with net score or spending momentum on the Y axis and overlap or pervasiveness in the data on the X axis. It's a measure of presence in the data set we used to call it market share. With the data, the dot positions, you see that little inserted table, that's how the dots are plotted. And it's important to note that this data is filtered for firms with at least 100 Ns in the survey. That's why some of the other ones that we mentioned might have dropped off. The red dotted line at 40% that indicates highly elevated spending momentum and there are several firms above that mark including of course, Microsoft, which is literally off the charts in both dimensions in the upper right. It's quite incredible actually. But for the rest of the pack, CrowdStrike has now taken back its number one net score position in the ETR survey. And CyberArk and Okta and Zscaler, CloudFlare and Auth0 now Okta through the acquisition, are all above the 40% mark. You can stare at the data at your leisure but I'll just point out, make three quick points. First Palo Alto continues to impress and as steady as she goes. Two, it's a very crowded market still and it's complicated space. And three there's lots of spending in different pockets. This market has too many tools and will continue to consolidate. Now I'd like to drill into a couple of firms net scores and pick out some of the pure plays that are leading the way. This series of charts shows the net score or spending velocity or granularity for Okta, CrowdStrike, Zscaler and CyberArk. Four of the top pure plays in the ETR survey that also have over a hundred responses. Now the colors represent the following. Bright red is defections. We're leaving the platform. The pink is we're spending less, meaning we're spending 6% or worse. The gray is flat spend plus or minus 5%. The forest green is spending more, i.e, 6% or more and the lime green is we're adding the platform new. That red dotted line at the 40% net score mark is the same elevated level that we like to talk about. All four are above that target. Now that blue line you see there is net score. The yellow line is pervasiveness in the data. The data shown in each bar goes back 10 surveys all the way back to January 2020. First I want to call out that all four again are seeing down trends in spending momentum with the whole market. That's that blue line. They're seeing that this quarter, again, the market is off overall. Everybody is kind of seeing that down trend for the most part. Very few exceptions. Okta is being hurt by fewer new additions which is why we highlighted in red, that red dotted area, that square that we put there in the upper right of that Okta bar. That lime green, new ads are off as well. And the gray for Okta, flat spending is noticeably up. So it feels like people are pausing a bit and taking a breather for Okta. And as we said earlier, perhaps with the breach earlier this year and the ingestion of Auth0 acquisition the company is seeing some friction in its business. Now, having said that, you can see Okta's yellow line or presence in the data set, continues to grow. So it's a good proxy from market presence. So Okta remains a leader in identity. So again, I'll let you stare at the data if you want at your leisure, but despite some concerns on declining momentum, notice this very little red at these companies when it comes to the ETR survey data. Now one more data slide which brings us to our four star cyber firms. We started a tradition a few years ago where we sorted the ETR data by net score. That's the left hand side of this graphic. And we sorted by shared end or presence in the data set. That's the right hand side. And again, we filtered by companies with at least 100 N and oh, by the way we've excluded Microsoft just to level the playing field. The red dotted line signifies the top 10. If a company cracks the top 10 in both spending momentum and presence, we give them four stars. So Palo Alto, CrowdStrike, Okta, Fortinet and Zscaler all made the cut this time. Now, as we pointed out in May if you combined Auth0 with Okta, they jumped to the number two on the right hand chart in terms of presence. And they would lead the pure plays there although it would bring down Okta's net score somewhat, as you can see, Auth0's net score is lower than Okta's. So when you combine them it would drag that down a little bit but it would give them bigger presence in the data set. Now, the other point we'll make is that Proofpoint and Splunk both dropped off the four star list this time as they both saw marked declines in net score or spending velocity. They both got four stars last quarter. Okay. We're going to close on what to expect at re:Inforce this coming week. Re:Inforce, if you don't know, is AWS's security event. They first held it in Boston back in 2019. It's dedicated to cloud security. The past two years has been virtual and they announced that reinvent that it would take place in Houston in June, which everybody said, that's crazy. Who wants to go to Houston in June and turns out nobody did so they postponed the event, thankfully. And so now they're back in Boston, starting on Monday. Not that it's going to be much cooler in Boston. Anyway, Steven Schmidt had been the face of AWS security at all these previous events as the Chief Information Security Officer. Now he's dropped the I from his title and is now the Chief Security Officer at Amazon. So he went with Jesse to the mothership. Presumably he dropped the I because he deals with physical security now too, like at the warehouses. Not that he didn't have to worry about physical security at the AWS data centers. I don't know. Anyway, he and CJ Moses who is now the new CISO at AWS will be keynoting along with some others including MongoDB's Chief Information Security Officer. So that should be interesting. Now, if you've been following AWS you'll know they like to break things down into, you know, a couple of security categories. Identity, detection and response, data protection slash privacy slash GRC which is governance, risk and compliance, and we would expect a lot more talk this year on container security. So you're going to hear also product updates and they like to talk about how they're adding value to services and try to help, they try to help customers understand how to apply services. Things like GuardDuty, which is their threat detection that has machine learning in it. They'll talk about Security Hub, which centralizes views and alerts and automates security checks. They have a service called Detective which does root cause analysis, and they have tools to mitigate denial of service attacks. And they'll talk about security in Nitro which isolates a lot of the hardware resources. This whole idea of, you know, confidential computing which is, you know, AWS will point out it's kind of become a buzzword. They take it really seriously. I think others do as well, like Arm. We've talked about that on previous Breaking Analysis. And again, you're going to hear something on container security because it's the hottest thing going right now and because AWS really still serves developers and really that's what they're trying to do. They're trying to enable developers to design security in but you're also going to hear a lot of best practice advice from AWS i.e, they'll share the AWS dogfooding playbooks with you for their own security practices. AWS like all good security practitioners, understand that the keys to a successful security strategy and implementation don't start with the technology, rather they're about the methods and practices that you apply to solve security threats and a top to bottom cultural approach to security awareness, designing security into systems, that's really where the developers come in, and training for continuous improvements. So you're going to get heavy doses of really strong best practices and guidance and you know, some good preaching. You're also going to hear and see a lot of partners. They'll be very visible at re:Inforce. AWS is all about ecosystem enablement and AWS is going to host close to a hundred security partners at the event. This is key because AWS doesn't do it all. Interestingly, they don't even show up in the ETR security taxonomy, right? They just sort of imply that it's built in there even though they have a lot of security tooling. So they have to apply the shared responsibility model not only with customers but partners as well. They need an ecosystem to fill gaps and provide deeper problem solving with more mature and deeper security tooling. And you're going to hear a lot of positivity around how great cloud security is and how it can be done well. But the truth is this stuff is still incredibly complicated and challenging for CISOs and practitioners who are understaffed when it comes to top talent. Now, finally, theCUBE will be at re:Inforce in force. John Furry and I will be hosting two days of broadcast so please do stop by if you're in Boston and say hello. We'll have a little chat, we'll share some data and we'll share our overall impressions of the event, the market, what we're seeing, what we're learning, what we're worried about in this dynamic space. Okay. That's it for today. Thanks for watching. Thanks to Alex Myerson, who is on production and manages the podcast. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight, they helped get the word out on social and in our newsletters and Rob Hoff is our Editor in Chief over at siliconangle.com. You did some great editing. Thank you all. Remember all these episodes they're available, this podcast. Wherever you listen, all you do is search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can get in touch with me by emailing avid.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @dvellante, or comment on my LinkedIn post and please do check out etr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching and we'll see you in Boston next week if you're there or next time on Breaking Analysis (soft music)

>> Announcer: theCube presents HPE Discover 2022, brought to you by HPE. >> Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Las Vegas. This is Lisa Martin with Dave Vellante live at HPE Discover '22. Dave, it's great to be here. This is the first Discover in three years and we're here with about 7,000 of our closest friends. >> Yeah. You know, I tweeted out this, I think I've been to 14 Discovers between the U.S. and Europe, and I've never seen a Discover with so much energy. People are not only psyched to get back together, that's for sure, but I think HPE's got a little spring in its step and it's feeling more confident than maybe some of the past Discovers that I've been to. >> I think so, too. I think there's definitely a spring in the step and we're going to be unpacking some of that spring next with one of our alumni who joins us, Keith White's here, the executive vice president and general manager of GreenLake Cloud Services. Welcome back. >> Great. You all thanks for having me. It's fantastic that you're here and you're right, the energy is crazy at this show. It's been a lot of pent up demand, but I think what you heard from Antonio today is our strategy's changing dramatically and it's really embracing our customers and our partners. So it's great. >> Embracing the customers and the partners, the ecosystem expansion is so critical, especially the last couple of years with the acceleration of digital transformation. So much challenge in every industry, but lots of momentum on the GreenLake side, I was looking at the Q2 numbers, triple digit growth in orders, 65,000 customers over 70 services, eight new services announced just this morning. Talk to us about the momentum of GreenLake. >> The momentum's been fantastic. I mean, I'll tell you, the fact that customers are really now reaccelerating their digital transformation, you probably heard a lot, but there was a delay as we went through the pandemic. So now it's reaccelerating, but everyone's going to a hybrid, multi-cloud environment. Data is the new currency. And obviously, everyone's trying to push out to the Edge and GreenLake is that edge to cloud platform. So we're just seeing tons of momentum, not just from the customers, but partners, we've enabled the platform so partners can plug into it and offer their solutions to our customers as well. So it's exciting and it's been fun to see the momentum from an order standpoint, but one of the big numbers that you may not be aware of is we have over a 96% retention rate. So once a customer's on GreenLake, they stay on it because they're seeing the value, which has been fantastic. >> The value is absolutely critically important. We saw three great big name customers. The Home Depot was on stage this morning, Oak Ridge National Laboratory was as well, Evil Geniuses. So the momentum in the enterprise is clearly present. >> Yeah. It is. And we're hearing it from a lot of customers. And I think you guys talk a lot about, hey, there's the cloud, data and Edge, these big mega trends that are happening out there. And you look at a company like Barclays, they're actually reinventing their entire private cloud infrastructure, running over a hundred thousand workloads on HPE GreenLake. Or you look at a company like Zenseact, who's basically they do autonomous driving software. So they're doing massive parallel computing capabilities. They're pulling in hundreds of petabytes of data to then make driving safer and so you're seeing it on the data front. And then on the Edge, you look at anyone like a Patrick Terminal, for example. They run a whole terminal shipyard. They're getting data in from exporters, importers, regulators, the works and they have to real-time, analyze that data and say, where should this thing go? Especially with today's supply chain challenges, they have to be so efficient, that it's just fantastic. >> It was interesting to hear Fidelma, Keith, this morning on stage. It was the first time I'd really seen real clarity on the platform itself and that it's obviously her job is, okay, here's the platform, now, you guys got to go build on top of it. Both inside of HPE, but also externally, so your ecosystem partners. So, you mentioned the financial services companies like Barclays. We see those companies moving into the digital world by offering some of their services in building their own clouds. >> Keith: That's right. >> What's your vision for GreenLake in terms of being that platform, to assist them in doing that and the data component there? >> I think that was one of the most exciting things about not just showcasing the platform, but also the announcement of our private cloud enterprise, Cloud Service. Because in essence, what you're doing is you're creating that framework for what most companies are doing, which is they're becoming cloud service providers for their internal business units. And they're having to do showback type scenarios, chargeback type scenarios, deliver cloud services and solutions inside the organization so that open platform, you're spot on. For our ecosystem, it's fantastic, but for our customers, they get to leverage it as well for their own internal IT work that's happening. >> So you talk about hybrid cloud, you talk about private cloud, what's your vision? You know, we use this term Supercloud. This in a layer that goes across clouds. What's your thought about that? Because you have an advantage at the Edge with Aruba. Everybody talks about the Edge, but they talk about it more in the context of near Edge. >> That's right. >> We talked to Verizon and they're going far Edge, you guys are participating in that, as well as some of your partners in Red Hat and others. What's your vision for that? What I call Supercloud, is that part of the strategy? Is that more longer term or you think that's pipe dream by Dave? >> No, I think it's really thoughtful, Dave, 'cause it has to be part of the strategy. What I hear, so for example, Ford's a great example. They run Azure, AWS, and then they made a big deal with Google cloud for their internal cars and they run HPE GreenLake. So they're saying, hey, we got four clouds. How do we sort of disaggregate the usage of that? And Chris Lund, who is the VP of information technology at Liberty Mutual Insurance, he talked about it today, where he said, hey, I can deliver these services to my business unit. And they don't know, am I running on the public cloud? Am I running on our HPE GreenLake cloud? Like it doesn't matter to the end user, we've simplified that so much. So I think your Supercloud idea is super thoughtful, not to use the super term too much, that I'm super excited about because it's really clear of what our customers are trying to accomplish, which it's not about the cloud, it's about the solution and the business outcome that gets to work. >> Well, and I think it is different. I mean, it's not like the last 10 years where it was like, hey, I got my stuff to work on the different clouds and I'm replicating as much as I can, the cloud experience on-prem. I think you guys are there now and then to us, the next layer is that ecosystem enablement. So how do you see the ecosystem evolving and what role does Green Lake play there? >> Yeah. This has been really exciting. We had Tarkan Maner who runs Nutanix and Karl Strohmeyer from Equinix on stage with us as well. And what's happening with the ecosystem is, I used to say, one plus one has to equal three for our customers. So when you bring these together, it has to be that scenario, but we are joking that one plus one plus one equals five now because everything has a partner component to it. It's not about the platform, it's not about the specific cloud service, it's actually about the solution that gets delivered. And that's done with an ISV, it's done with a Colo, it's done even with the Hyperscalers. We have Azure Stack HCI as a fully integrated solution. It happens with managed service providers, delivering managed services out to their folks as well. So that platform being fully partner enabled and that ecosystem being able to take advantage of that, and so we have to jointly go to market to our customers for their business needs, their business outcomes. >> Some of the expansion of the ecosystem. we just had Red Hat on in the last hour talking about- >> We're so excited to partner with them. >> Right, what's going on there with OpenShift and Ansible and Rel, but talk about the customer influence in terms of the expansion of the ecosystem. We know we've got to meet customers where they are, they're driving it, but we know that HPE has a big presence in the enterprise and some pretty big customer names. How are they from a demand perspective? >> Well, this is where I think the uniqueness of GreenLake has really changed HPE's approach with our customers. Like in all fairness, we used to be a vendor that provided hardware components for, and we talked a lot about hardware costs and blah, blah, blah. Now, we're actually a partner with those customers. What's the business outcome you're requiring? What's the SLA that we offer you for what you're trying to accomplish? And to do that, we have to have it done with partners. And so even on the storage front, Qumulo or Cohesity. On the backup and recovery disaster recovery, yes, we have our own products, but we also partner with great companies like Veeam because it's customer choice, it's an open platform. And the Red Hat announcement is just fantastic. Because, hey, from a container platform standpoint, OpenShift provides 5,000 plus customers, 90% of the fortune 500 that they engage with, with that opportunity to take GreenLake with OpenShift and implement that container capabilities on-prem. So it's fantastic. >> We were talking after the keynote, Keith Townsend came on, myself and Lisa. And he was like, okay, what about startups? 'Cause that's kind of a hallmark of cloud. And we felt like, okay, startups are not the ideal customer profile necessarily for HPE. Although we saw Evil Geniuses up on stage, but I threw out and I'd love to get your thoughts on this that within companies, incumbents, you have entrepreneurs, they're trying to build their own clouds or Superclouds as I use the term, is that really the target for the developer audience? We've talked a lot about OpenShift with their other platforms, who says as a partner- >> We just announced another extension with Rancher and- >> Yeah. I saw that. And you have to have optionality for developers. Is that the way we should think about the target audience from a developer standpoint? >> I think it will be as we go forward. And so what Fidelma presented on stage was the new developer platform, because we have come to realize, we have to engage with the developers. They're the ones building the apps. They're the ones that are delivering the solutions for the most part. So yeah, I think at the enterprise space, we have a really strong capability. I think when you get into the sort of mid-market SMB standpoint, what we're doing is we're going directly to the managed service and cloud service providers and directly to our Disty and VARS to have them build solutions on top of GreenLake, powered by GreenLake, to then deliver to their customers because that's what the customer wants. I think on the developer side of the house, we have to speak their language, we have to provide their capabilities because they're going to start articulating apps that are going to use both the public cloud and our on-prem capabilities with GreenLake. And so that's got to work very well. And so you've heard us talk about API based and all of that sort of scenario. So it's an exciting time for us, again, moving HPE strategy into something very different than where we were before. >> Well, Keith, that speaks to ecosystem. So I don't know if you were at Microsoft, when the sweaty Steve Ballmer was working with the developers, developers. That's about ecosystem, ecosystem, ecosystem. I don't expect we're going to see Antonio replicating that. But that really is the sort of what you just described is the ecosystem developing on top of GreenLake. That's critical. >> Yeah. And this is one of the things I learned. So, being at Microsoft for as long as I was and leading the Azure business from a commercial standpoint, it was all about the partner and I mean, in all fairness, almost every solution that gets delivered has some sort of partner component to it. Might be an ISV app, might be a managed service, might be in a Colo, might be with our hybrid cloud, with our Hyperscalers, but everything has a partner component to it. And so one of the things I learned with Azure is, you have to sell through and with your ecosystem and go to that customer with a joint solution. And that's where it becomes so impactful and so powerful for what our customers are trying to accomplish. >> When we think about the data gravity and the value of data that put massive potential that it has, even Antonio talked about it this morning, being data rich but insights poor for a long time. >> Yeah. >> Every company in today's day and age has to be a data company to be competitive, there's no more option for that. How does GreenLake empower companies? GreenLake and its ecosystem empower companies to really live being data companies so that they can meet their customers where they are. >> I think it's a really great point because like we said, data's the new currency. Data's the new gold that's out there and people have to get their arms around their data estate. So then they can make these business decisions, these business insights and garner that. And Dave, you mentioned earlier, the Edge is bringing a ton of new data in, and my Zenseact example is a good one. But with GreenLake, you now have a platform that can do data and data management and really sort of establish and secure the data for you. There's no data latency, there's no data egress charges. And which is what we typically run into with the public cloud. But we also support a wide range of databases, open source, as well as the commercial ones, the sequels and those types of scenarios. But what really comes to life is when you have to do analytics on that and you're doing AI and machine learning. And this is one of the benefits I think that people don't realize with HPE is, the investments we've made with Cray, for example, we have and you saw on stage today, the largest supercomputer in the world. That depth that we have as a company, that then comes down into AI and analytics for what we can do with high performance compute, data simulations, data modeling, analytics, like that is something that we, as a company, have really deep, deep capabilities on. So it's exciting to see what we can bring to customers all for that spectrum of data. >> I was excited to see Frontier, they actually achieve, we hosted an event, co-produced event with HPE during the pandemic, Exascale day. >> Yeah. >> But we weren't quite at Exascale, we were like right on the cusp. So to see it actually break through was awesome. So HPC is clearly a differentiator for Hewlett Packard Enterprise. And you talk about the egress. What are some of the other differentiators? Why should people choose GreenLake? >> Well, I think the biggest thing is, that it's truly is a edge to cloud platform. And so you talk about Aruba and our capabilities with a network attached and network as a service capabilities, like that's fairly unique. You don't see that with the other companies. You mentioned earlier to me that compute capabilities that we've had as a company and the storage capabilities. But what's interesting now is that we're sort of taking all of that expertise and we're actually starting to deliver these cloud services that you saw on stage, private cloud, AI and machine learning, high performance computing, VDI, SAP. And now we're actually getting into these industry solutions. So we talked last year about electronic medical records, this year, we've talked about 5g. Now, we're talking about customer loyalty applications. So we're really trying to move from these sort of baseline capabilities and yes, containers and VMs and bare metal, all that stuff is important, but what's really important is the services that you run on top of that, 'cause that's the outcomes that our customers are looking at. >> Should we expect you to be accelerating? I mean, look at what you did with Azure. You look at what AWS does in terms of the feature acceleration. Should we expect HPE to replicate? Maybe not to that scale, but in a similar cadence, we're starting to see that. Should we expect that actually to go faster? >> I think you couched it really well because it's not as much about the quantity, but the quality and the uses. And so what we've been trying to do is say, hey, what is our swim lane? What is our sweet spot? Where do we have a superpower? And where are the areas that we have that superpower and how can we bring those solutions to our customers? 'Cause I think, sometimes, you get over your skis a bit, trying to do too much, or people get caught up in the big numbers, versus the, hey, what's the real meat behind it. What's the tangible outcome that we can deliver to customers? And we see just a massive TAM. I want to say my last analysis was around $42 billion in the next three years, TAM and the Azure service on-prem space. And so we think that there's nothing but upside with the core set of workloads, the core set of solutions and the cloud services that we bring. So yeah, we'll continue to innovate, absolutely, amen, but we're not in a, hey we got to get to 250 this and 300 that, we want to keep it as focused as we can. >> Well, the vast majority of the revenue in the public cloud is still compute. I mean, not withstanding, Microsoft obviously does a lot in SaaS, but I'm talking about the infrastructure and service. Still, well, I would say over 50%. And so there's a lot of the services that don't make any revenue and there's that long tail, if I hear your strategy, you're not necessarily going after that. You're focusing on the quality of those high value services and let the ecosystem sort of bring in the rest. >> This is where I think the, I mean, I love that you guys are asking me about the ecosystem because this is where their sweet spot is. They're the experts on hyper-converged or databases, a service or VDI, or even with SAP, like they're the experts on that piece of it. So we're enabling that together to our customers. And so I don't want to give you the impression that we're not going to innovate. Amen. We absolutely are, but we want to keep it within that, that again, our swim lane, where we can really add true value based on our expertise and our capabilities so that we can confidently go to customers and say, hey, this is a solution that's going to deliver this business value or this capability for you. >> The partners might be more comfortable with that than, we only have one eye sleep with one eye open in the public cloud, like, okay, what are they going to, which value of mine are they grab next? >> You're spot on. And again, this is where I think, the power of what an Edge to cloud platform like HPE GreenLake can do for our customers, because it is that sort of, I mentioned it, one plus one equals three kind of scenario for our customers so. >> So we can leave your customers, last question, Keith. I know we're only on day one of the main summit, the partner growth summit was yesterday. What's the feedback been from the customers and the ecosystem in terms of validating the direction that HPE is going? >> Well, I think the fantastic thing has been to hear from our customers. So I mentioned in my keynote recently, we had Liberty Mutual and we had Texas Children's Hospital, and they're implementing HPE GreenLake in a variety of different ways, from a private cloud standpoint to a data center consolidation. They're seeing sustainability goals happen on top of that. They're seeing us take on management for them so they can take their limited resources and go focus them on innovation and value added scenarios. So the flexibility and cost that we're providing, and it's just fantastic to hear this come to life in a real customer scenario because what Texas Children is trying to do is improve patient care for women and children like who can argue with that. >> Nobody. >> So, yeah. It's great. >> Awesome. Keith, thank you so much for joining Dave and me on the program, talking about all of the momentum with HPE Greenlake. >> Always. >> You can't walk in here without feeling the momentum. We appreciate your insights and your time. >> Always. Thank you you for the time. Yeah. Great to see you as well. >> Likewise. >> Thanks. >> For Keith White and Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCube live, day one coverage from the show floor at HPE Discover '22. We'll be right back with our next guest. (gentle music)

>>The cube presents HPE discover 2022 brought to you by HPE. >>Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Cube's day one coverage of HPE. Discover 22 live from Las Vegas. Lisa Martin, here with Dave Velante of a couple of guests from red hat. You may have seen some news yesterday. We're gonna be talking about that. Please. Welcome Ryan King, the senior director of hardware partner ecosystem, and Lori Fontine joins us as well. The senior director of global commercial partner ecosystem. Welcome to the program guys. >>Thanks for having us. Yeah, >>Thank you so great to be back in person and nobody word has summit was just last month or so. That's right. Ryan. Talk about hybrid cloud. It's all the buzz. We've been talking a lot about it in the last hour and a half alone. What are some of the trends that, that red hat is seen with respect to hybrid cloud? >>Well, I, I mean, hybrid cloud of red hat has been a trend for quite some time. In fact, we were very early in setting our course towards hybrid cloud with our products and platforms. And that's been a key part of our strategy in terms of the number of transformations have been happening in the enterprise. And with HPE, we're super excited about, you know, we're hitting our stride with OpenShift. I've been working with OpenShift for the better part of my 10 years here at 12 years at red hat, 10 years with OpenShift. And we're very excited about seeing the pattern of going where customers want to build their cloud. It's very important that where, where the market is going. So we're seeing trends from the public cloud now go into edge and telco and 5g and really exceed, see them expanding their infrastructure footprint out to those use cases. And again, we see REL everywhere. So re has continued to expand as well. And then Ansible automation platform has also been a great means of kind of bringing together community for that last mile of automating your entire infrastructure. >>Well, the Lin, the functionality of Linux continues to improve OpenShift is everywhere. I mean, I remember at the red hat summit, I mean, well, we, we, we coined this term super cloud, which is this layer that floats, you know, on-prem took across clouds out to the edge we had Verizon on. They were talking about, you know, 5g developers and how they're developing using, you know, a combination of, of, of OpenShift. So guys have been really crushing it with, with OpenShift. I remember, gosh, I mean, we've been covering, you know, red hat summits for a long time now. And just to see that evolution is actually quite amazing. >>Yeah. It's actually really neat to see our CEOs align too. Right. So the messaging that we've had around hybrid cloud from red hat, like you said, we were kind of the pioneers, honestly, this we've been talking about hybrid cloud from the very beginning. We always knew that it wasn't gonna be public cloud or private cloud. We had to have, you know, hybrid. And, and it's interesting to see that Antonio, you know, took that on and wanted to say, we're gonna do everything as a service right. A few years ago. And, and the whole theme was around hybrid cloud and giving customers that choice. Right? So it's exciting for us to see all of that come together. And I actually worked for HP for like 17 and a half years. So it's really fun for me to be on this side now with red hat and see the messaging come together, the vision come together and just really being able to align and move forward on >>This tremendous amount of transformation in the last few years >>Alone. Oh my gosh, we >>Talk about, you know, customers need choice. They want choice, but you also talked about, we have to meet customers where they are. That seems the last few years to have accelerated, there is no more option for companies. You've gotta meet the customers where they are. >>Exactly. Yeah. And it's all about choice, like you said, and it, everybody's got, you know, their own way to do everything as far as consumption goes and we have to be available and spot on with it, you know, and be able to move quickly with these trends that we're seeing. And so it's great to be aligned. And >>From a partnership standpoint, I mean, you, you mentioned H HP 17 years. I mean, it was, it was a hard to follow company. You had, you had PCs over here, you had services, the kind of the old EDS business. Now there's such a focus absolutely. On this mission, absolutely. Of as a service. And, you know, obviously a key part of that is having optionality and bringing open source tooling into that. I mean, we heard about this in, in spades, at, at red hat summit, which is really interesting this year. It was a smaller VIP event in Boston. And I, and I loved it, you know, cuz it was really manageable. We had all the execs on and customers and partners. It was awesome. What's new since red hat summit. >>Well, I mean, I would say that obviously GreenLake and what we've announced this week is a big new thing for us, but really like we're just continuing on our pattern. We are. Now, if you look at the Q1 report from IBM, you'll see that the growth of the customer base for OpenShift that they reported just continues to go up into the right. You'll see that now, like AMIA is saying that we're like 47.8% of the containers market for the enterprise. You'll see that like we're now in 65% of the fortune 500 with OpenShift, 90% with red hat in general. So we've established our footprint. And when you establish your footprint and customers start taking you out to the edge, we're going into these 5g use cases, we're, we've got an incredible amount happening in the AI space, all these emerging areas of where people are building their cloud, like we're now going to that next level of saying, how do they want to consume it? >>So what's really important to me about that is, is so Omni data around 50% of the market is, is open shift. A people may not realize a lot of people use, you know, do Kubernetes for free, you know, Hey, we're doing Kubernetes, but they don't have that application development framework and all the recovery and all the, the tooling around it. And the reason why I think that's so important, Laurie is ecosystems wanna monetize. So people are paying for things that becomes more interesting and it actually starts to attract people just naturally. >>Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of ecosystem, I mean, that's the beauty of what we're doing with GreenLake too. We're taking on a building block approach. So we're really, it's kind of ISV as a service if you will. And you know, personally, I, this was my baby for the past couple years, trying to make sure that we took into consideration every partner use case, every customer use case. So we created an agreement that would make sense to be able to scale, but also to meet all the demands of our customers. And so the, the what's really exciting about this is now we have a chance to take this building block approach, scale it out to all types of partner types, right throughout the entire ecosystem and build offerings together. That is really exciting for us. And that's where we see the real potential here with GreenLake and with red hat, >>What's actually available inside a GreenLake. >>So we are starting with OpenShift. So OpenShift will be available in Q3 that will follow in Q4 with re and then after that Ansible. So we're, we're moving very quickly to bring our platforms into it and it's really our strategic platforms, but it's all based on customer demand. We know we're seeing amazing transformation of customers moving to Kubernetes. You said, you know, OpenShift is Kubernetes with useful additions to it and an ecosystem around it, right? So that transformation is also happening at the bare metal layer. So we're seeing people move into Kubernetes bare metal, which is an amazing growth market for us. >>Explain those useful additions if you would. So why shouldn't I just go out and, and get the free version of Kubernete? Why should I engage red hat and, and OpenShift? What do I get? >>So you get all the day, two management stuff, you get, we have a whole set of additional stuff you can purchase around it, OpenShift platform. Plus you can get our ACM, our advanced cluster management. So you wanna manage multiple clusters, right? You get the ACS, the security side of it. You can also get ODF. So you get storage built into it as well. And we've done all these integrations. You can manage the whole thing as a cluster or as multiple clusters with the whole enterprise support and the long term support that we provide for these things up to 10 years. So >>When you look at the early days lease of, of Kubernetes, it was really, the focus was on simplicity. You had other platforms that were actually doing more sophisticated cluster management. And the, the committers that in Kubernetes said, you know, we're not gonna do that. We're gonna keep it simple. And so that leave some holes and gaps and you know, they're starting to fill those, but what if, if correct me if I'm wrong, but what red hat has done is said, okay, we're gonna accelerate, you know, the, the, the closing of those gaps and stay ahead and actually offer incremental value. And that's why you're winning in the marketplace. >>Well, we're an open company, so we're still doing everything upstream and open source as we do, of course, sticking with, you know, the APIs and APIs to make this all work, both, you know, in terms of what the community's trying to drive, what we're trying to drive for our customers on their behalf. And then just where things are going from a technology basis, make it a lot of investment, >>But you have to, you have to make a red hat, has to make a choice as to where it puts its commitments. You can't spread yourself too thin, so you gotta pick your spots. And you've, you've proven that you're pretty adept at doing that. >>That just comes back to customer centricity, right. And just knowing where our customers need to take the platform. That's, >>That's easy to say, but it's, it's an art form. And a little bit of science. >>Remember these customers have experts that are deep in this space. So it's like, you know, those experts trust us with where they needed to go. And they trust us to help shepherd that and deliver that as a platform to them. So it's not like anybody tell us what you want, right? Like it's really about like, knowing what's the best way to do it. And working with the people that can help you understand how to apply that to their use case >>And within the customer environment, who are you working with? Who is that key constituent or constituents that are guiding red hat in this direction? >>Well, it's certainly infrastructure folks. So it's your, it's your standard folks that are looking at the, how do we lay down our infrastructure? How do we manage it? How do we grow it? It goes out to the application developers. They're trying to deliver this in a cloud native way. And we have new personas, you know, coming in with the AI practitioners, right? So we've announced at before summit at Invidia's event, their new offering called Invidia AI enterprise. And so that's them bringing in enterprise support for GPU, for Kuda and for a software stack above that to start offering some more support there. So they're certifying OpenShift, we're both certifying the servers that run underneath it, and then they're offering support for their stuff on top of it. And that's a whole new use case for us. >>And, you know, I should also mention that even though this paper use with the GreenLake is new for us, and we just had this big announcement, we have done GreenLake deals though. We've done numerous GreenLake deals with our annual subs, right? So I, so even though this is new to us, as far as, you know, monthly utilization and being able to do this cloud consumption this isn't new to us as two companies coming together, we've been doing GreenLake deals for the past couple years. It's just, now we have this cloud consumption availability, which is really gonna make this thing launch. So, >>So what have been some of the customer benefits so far, you've been doing it for a couple years. The announcement was yesterday, but there's obviously feed on the street going on. What are some of the, the big outcomes that you're seeing customers actually bring to reality? >>I think speed and agility, right? That's the biggest thing with, with our products, being able to have it everything predictable and being able to have it consumed one way, instead of having this fragmented customer experience, which is, you know, what we've seen in the past. So I think that's the biggest thing is speed agility and just, you know, a really good customer experience at this point. >>Go get it, please. >>I would say the customer experience is critical. Yes. That's one of the things that we know that in terms of, of patients wearing thin the last couple of years, people expect to have a really strong consumer experience regardless of what you're doing, regardless of what industry and so attention and mind on that is a differentiator in my opinion. >>Absolutely. Yeah. And we've gotta constantly keep our eye on that. I mean, that's, that's our north star, if you will. Right. So, and Lori, >>I know you've saying you're, you've done GreenLake deals in the past, but what feels different to me now in that it's actually coalescing some of the things that Alma Russo announced this morning, the platform on which, you know, ISV is a service. I think you, you called it. Yeah. You, it, it now seems like, you know, look a couple years ago, HP said, okay, this is the direction that we're going. Yeah. They weren't there at that time. And they're still not there. There's a lot of work to be, to be done. But now it's starting to form. You're seeing, you know, the pieces come together, the puzzle pieces that sort of substrate being laid out. And now you're hoping that we see the steep part of the S-curve and that's what customers I think are expecting. >>Right. And it's bringing that operating model to move to a monthly model so they can do pay as you go. Right. And that pairs up nicely with like the cloud native capabilities we're bringing to OpenShift and hybrid cloud in general. So it's, it just shows like we're already getting demand from customers. It's saying like, this is part of our model. Like we know a certain amount of infrastructure we wanna own, and we just wanna own it outright, but there's a lot that they want to have flexibility on. And so being able to add that portion to it is just, you know, gonna help us both. >>And you think about the critical aspects of, of the cloud operating model. It's obviously pay as you go it's, you know, massive scale it's ecosystem enablement, and also automation. I mean, that is, that is a key, what's your point of view on that? You guys with Ansible, you, you, you know, you go back to a couple years ago and it was, you know, there was this, there were a lot of other tooling, but now, I mean, Ansible is really taken off. Yeah. >>It's just, you know, Cinderella story, right? Like it really an amazing community driven thing where we just knew, we all know this, right. You have, when you get to the very last mile of doing infrastructure management, there's a variety of devices, there's variety, a variety of vendors. And then you have like the variety of skills of the people that have to figure out how to do automate all of this. And what Ansible did is it provided a common language across all of that. And so what we do with automation, our, an ible automation platform is we make it. So now teams can manage all of this together and they can share their playbooks and they can host that privately for all their enterprise stuff that they need to do. So it's just, you know, it fits our DNA so well to have something so community driven now with a really nice enterprise message wrapped around it. And it's playing out very well for where, you know, hybrid cloud. Right. Cause there's some more additional variety. You need to be able to manage, you know, across all of your different footprints, because really it's like, it's not just about flexibility and scale up scale down it's where do you need it to run at what time? Right. And that, that last leg Ansible plays a key role in that. >>And we actually, Ansible will be coming further down the, you know, the patch. I know we're gonna talk a little bit about what's available today versus what's available down the road, but yeah, we have that on the radar. So right outta the gate, we're working on OpenShift, obviously bare metal. And we see that happening in Q3 and then behind that as well in Q4 and then Ansible is gonna be right behind that. So that's kind of the order that, and there's other pieces, right? So our whole portfolio is basically available to HP right now. It's just making sure that we can operationalize everything and have the best experience >>All inside of GreenLake, >>All inside a GreenLake. Yeah. Pretty neat. Lori >>Question for you. You've been, you were with HP for a very long time. This is obviously the first discover in three years in person. Exactly. You know, three years ago, Antonio near stood on stage and said, we are going to buy 20, 22. And here we are deliver everything as a service, as a partner and as a former HP, what are you seeing at this discover 22? >>It's it's so interesting. I it's such a sea change if you will. Right. And having come from HPE, I actually led the software as a service organization for a while on the software side of things. And we thought that was like state of the art and cutting edge that was 10, 11, 12 years ago. Right. So to actually see this come to life, because we were all thinking really, everything is a service. How are you gonna do that? Like your entire portfolio is gonna be available. Like that is lofty. Right. And having worked at HP, I thought, wow, I don't, you know, I know things take time. And, but actually just even being around the showcase here and watching everything come to life is amazing. Cause I, I, you know, I, I was very positive about it, but at the same time, it's like that, that was a big goal three years. Right. And it's, I'm seeing it happen >>A big goal in two of those years during a pandemic. Right. So right. Talk about lofty. Oh my gosh. Quite a bit of accomplishments guys. Thank you so much for joining David me on the program talking about actually guys, this is great. What red hat and HPE are doing your power partnership, power ship. Is that a word? It is now your power. >>I like >>That with GreenLake. We appreciate that. We'll look forward to having you guys back on. >>Thank you so much, guys. >>All right. For our guests. I'm Lisa Martin. He's Dave ante. We are at HPE discover 22 live from the show floor in Las Vegas. This is just day one of our cupboards stick around. We'll be right back with our next guest.

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. This is the Cube's coverage here in Las Vegas. Back at events re Mars, Amazon re Mars. I'm your host, John fur with the cube. Mars stands for machine learning, automation, robotics, and space. It's great event brings together a lot of the industrial space machine learning and all the new changes in scaling up from going on the moon to, you know, doing great machine learning. And we've got two great guests here with kinda called lunar outpost, Justin Sears, CEO, Lauren, man. He's the co-founder and chief strategy officer lunar outpost. They're right next to us, watching their booth. Love the name, gentlemen. Welcome to the cube. >>Yeah. Thanks for having us, John. >>All right. So lunar outpost, I get the clues here. Tell us what you guys do. Start with that. >>Absolutely. So lunar outpost, we're a company based outta Colorado that has two missions headed to the moon over the course of the next 24 months. We're currently operating on Mars, which forest will tell you a little bit more about here in a second. And we're really pushing out towards expanding the infrastructure on the lunar surface. And then we're gonna utilize that to provide sustainable access to other planetary bodies. >>All right, far as teeing it up for you. Go, how cool is this? We don't, we wanna use every minute. What's the lunar surface look like? What's the infrastructure roads. You gonna pave it down. You what's going on. Well, >>Where we're going. No one has ever been. So, um, our first mission is going to Shackleton connecting Ridge on the south pole, the moon, and that's ripe to add infrastructure such as landing pads and other things. But our first Rover will be primarily driving across the surface, uh, exploring, uh, what the material looks like, prospecting for resources and testing new technologies. >>And you have a lot of technology involved. You're getting data in, you're just doing surveillance. What's the tech involved there. >>Yeah. So the primary technology that we're demonstrating is a 4g network for NOK. Um, we're providing them mobility services, which is basically like the old Verizon commercial. Can you hear me now? Uh, where the Rover drives farther and farther away from the Lander to test their signal strength, and then we're gonna have some other payloads ride sharing along with us for the ride >>Reminds me the old days of wifi. We used to call it war drive and you go around and try to find someone's wifi hotspot <laugh> inside the thing, but no, this is kind of cool. It brings up the whole thing. Now on lunar outpost, how big is the company? What's how what's to some of the stats heres some of the stats. >>Absolutely. So lunar outpost, 58 people, uh, growing quite quickly on track to double. So any of you watching, you want a job, please apply <laugh>. But with lunar outpost, uh, very similar to how launch companies provide people access to different parts of space. Lunar outpost provides people access to different spots on planetary bodies, whether it's the moon, Mars or beyond. So that's really where we're starting. >>So it's kinda like a managed service for all kinds of space utilities. If you kind of think about it, you're gonna provide services. Yeah, >>Absolutely. Yeah. It, it's definitely starting there and, and we're pushing towards building that infrastructure and that long term vision of utilizing space resources. But I can talk about that a little bit more here in a sec. >>Let's get into that. Let's talk about Mars first. You guys said what's going on with >>Mars. Absolutely. >>Yeah. So right now, uh, lunar outpost is part of the science team for, uh, Moxi, which is an instrument on the perseverance Rover. Yeah. Moxi is the first demonstration of space resource utilization on another planet. And what space resource utilization is basically taking resources on another planet, turning them into something useful. What Moxi does is it takes the CO2 from the atmosphere of Mars and atmosphere of Mars is mostly CO2 and it uses a process called solid oxide electrolysis to basically strip oxygen off of that CO2 to produce oh two and carbon monoxide. >>So it's what you need to self sustain on the surface. >>Exactly. It's not just sustaining, um, the astronauts, but also for producing oxygen for propellant. So it'll actually produce, um, it's a, it's a technology that'll produce a propellant for return rockets, um, to come back for Mars. So >>This is the real wildcard and all this, this, this exploration is how fast can the discoveries invent the new science to provide the life and the habitat on the surface. And that seems to be the real focus in the, in the conversations I heard on the keynote as well, get the infrastructure up so you can kinda land and, and we'll pull back and forth. Um, where are we on progress? You guys have the peg from one zero to 10, 10 being we're going, my grandmother's going, everyone's going to zero. Nothing's moving. >>We're making pretty rapid >>Progress. A three six, >>You know, I'll, I'll put it on an eight, John an >>Eight, I'll put it on >>Eight. This is why the mission force was just talking about that's launching within the next 12 months. This is no longer 10 years out. This is no longer 20 years away, 12 months. And then we have mission two shortly after, and that's just the beginning. We have over a dozen Landers that are headed to line surface this decade alone and heavy lift Landers and launchers, uh, start going to the moon and coming back by 2025. >>So, and you guys are from Colorado. You mentioned before you came on camera, right with the swap offices. So you got some space in Colorado, then the rovers to move around. You get, you get weird looks when people drive by and see the space gear. >>Oh yeah, definitely. So we have, um, you know, we have our facility in golden and our Nevada Colorado, and we'll take the vehicles out for strolls and you'll see construction workers, building stuff, and looking over and saying, what's >>Good place to work too. So you're, you're hiring great. You're doubling on the business model side. I can see a lot of demand. It's cheaper to launch stuff now in space. Is there becoming any rules of engagement relative to space? I don't wanna say verified, but like, you know, yet somehow get to the point where, I mean, I could launch a satellite, I could launch something for a couple hundred grand that might interfere with something legitimate. Do you see that on the radar because you guys are having ease of use so smaller, faster, cheaper to get out there. Now you gotta refine the infrastructure, get the services going. Is there threats from just random launches? >>It's a, it's a really interesting question. I mean, current state of the art people who have put rovers on other planetary bodies, you're talking like $3 billion, uh, for the March perseverance Rover. So historically there hasn't been that threat, but when you start talking about lowering the cost and the access to some of these different locations, I do think we'll get to the point where there might be folks that interfere with large scale operations. And that's something that's not very well defined in international law and something you won't really probably get any of the major space powers to agree to. So it's gonna be up to commercial companies to operate responsibly so we can make that space sustainable. And if there is a bad actor, I think it they'll weed themselves out over time. >>Yeah. It's gonna be of self govern, I think in the short term. Good point. Yeah. What about the technology? Where are we in the technology? What are some of the big, uh, challenges that we're overcoming now and what's that next 20 M stare in terms of the next milestone? Yeah, a tech perspective. >>Yeah. So the big technology technological hurdle that has been identified by many is the ability to survive the LUN night. Um, it gets exceptionally cold, uh, when the sun on the moon and that happens every 14 days for another, for, you know, for 14 days. So these long, cold lunar nights, uh, can destroy circuit boards and batteries and different components. So lunar outpost has invested in developing thermal technologies to overcome this, um, both in our offices, in the United States, but we also have opened a new office in, uh, Luxembourg in Europe. That's focusing specifically on thermal technologies to survive the lunar night, not just for rovers, but all sorts of space assets. >>Yeah. Huge. That's a hardware, you know, five, nine kind of like meantime between failure conversation, right. >><laugh> and it's, it gets fun, right? Because you talk five nines and it's such like, uh, you know, ingrained part of the aerospace community. But what we're pitching is we can send a dozen rovers for the cost of one of these historical rovers. So even if 25% of 'em fail, you still have eight rovers for the cost of one of the old rovers. And that's just the, economy's a scale. >>I saw James Hamilton here walking around. He's one of the legendary Amazonians who built out the data center. You might come by the cube. That's just like what they did with servers. Hey, if one breaks throw it away. Yeah. Why buy the big mainframe? Yeah. That's the new model. All right. So now about, uh, space space, that's a not space space, but like room to move around when you start getting some of these habitats going, um, how does space factor into the size of the location? Um, cuz you got the, to live there, solve some of the thermal problems. How do I live on space? I gotta have, you know, how many people gonna be there? What's your forecast? You think from a mission standpoint where there'll be dozens of people or is it still gonna be small teams? >>Yeah. >>Uh, what's that look like? >>I mean you >>Can guess it's okay. >>I mean, my vision's thousands of people. Yep. Uh, living and working in space because it's gonna be, especially the moon I think is a destination that's gonna grow, uh, for tourism. There's an insane drive from people to go visit a new destination. And the moon is one of the most unique experiences you could imagine. Yep. Um, in the near term for Artis, we're gonna start by supporting the Artis astronauts, which are gonna be small crews of astronauts. Um, you know, two to six in the near term. >>And to answer your question, uh, you know, in a different way, the habitat that we're actually gonna build, it's gonna take dozens of these robotic systems to build and maintain over time. And when we're actually talking, timelines, force talks, thousands of people living and working in space, I think that's gonna happen within the next 10 to 15 years. The first few folks are gonna be on the moon by 2025. And we're pushing towards having dozens of people living and working in space and by 2030. >>Yeah. I think it's an awesome goal. And I think it's doable question I'll have for you is the role of software in all this. I had a conversation with, uh, space nerd and we were talking and, and I said open sources everywhere now in the software. Yeah. How do you repair in space? Does you know, you don't want to have a firmware be down. So send down backhoe back to the United States. The us, wait a minute, it's the planet. I gotta go back to earth. Yeah. To get apart. So how does break fix work in space? How, how do you guys see that problem? >>So this one's actually quite fun. I mean, currently we don't have astronauts that can pick up a or change a tire. Uh, so you have to make robots that are really reliable, right. That can continuously operate for years at a time. But when you're talking about long-term repairs, there's some really cool ideas and concepts about standardization of some of these parts, you know, just like Lu knots on your car, right? Yeah. If everyone has the same Lu knots on their wheel, great. Now I can go change it out. I can switch off different parts that are available on the line surface. So I think we're moving towards, uh, that in the long >>Term you guys got a great company. Love the mission. Final question for both of you is I noticed that there's a huge community development around Mars, living on Mars, living on the moon. I mean, there's not a chat group that clubhouse app used, used to be around just kind of dying. But now it's when the Twitter spaces Reddit, you name it, there's a fanatical fan base that loves to talk about an engineer and kind of a collective intelligence, not, may not be official engineering, but they just love to talk about it. So there's a huge fan base for space. How does someone get involved if they really want to dive in and then how do you nurture that audience? How does that, is it developing? What's your take on this whole movement? It's it's beyond just being interested. It's it's become, I won't say cult-like but it's been, there's very, a lot of people in young people interested in space. >>Yeah. >>Yeah. There's, there's a whole, lots of places to get involved. There's, you know, societies, right? Like the Mar society there's technical committees, um, there's, you know, even potentially learning about these, you know, taking a space, resources master program and getting into the field and, and joining the company. So, um, we really, uh, thrive on that energy from the community and it really helps press us forward. And we hope to, uh, have a way to take everyone with us on the mission. And so stay tuned, follow our website. We'll be announcing some of that stuff soon. >>Awesome. And just one last, uh, quick pitch for you, John, I'll leave you with one thought. There are two things that space has an infinite amount of the first is power and the second is resources. And if we can find a way to access either of those, we can fundamentally change the way humanity operates. Yeah. So when you're talking about living on Mars long term, we're gonna need to access the resource from Mars. And then long term, once we get the transportation infrastructure in place, we can start bringing those resources back here to earth. So of course there are gonna be those people that sign up for that first mission out to Mars with SpaceX. But, uh, we'd love for folks to join on with us at lunar outpost and be a part of that kind of next leap accessing those resources. >>I love the mission, as always said, once in the cube, everything in star Trek will be invented someday. <laugh>, we're almost there except for the, the, uh, the transporter room. We don't have that done yet, but almost soon be there. All right. Well, thanks for coming. I, I really appreciate Justin for us for sharing. Great story. Final minute. Give a plug for the company. What are you guys looking for? You said hiring. Yep. Anything else you'd like to share? Put a plug in for lunar outpost. >>Absolutely. So we're hiring across the board, aerospace engineering, robotics engineering, sales marketing. Doesn't really matter. Uh, we're doubling as a company currently around 58 people, as we said, and we're looking for the top people that want to make an impact in aerospace. This is truly a unique moment. First time we've ever had continuous reliable operations. First time NASA is pushing really hard on the public private partnerships for commercial companies like ours to go out and create this sustainable presence on the moon. So whether you wanna work with us, our partner with us, we'd be excited to talk to you and, uh, yeah. Please contact us at info. Lunar outpost.com. >>We'll certainly follow up. Thanks for coming. I love the mission we're behind you and everyone else is too. You can see the energy it's gonna happen. It's the cube coverage from re Mars new actions happening in space on the ground, in the, on the moon you name it's happening right here in Vegas. I'm John furrier. Thanks for watching.

>> We're back at the Big Apple, theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. Sahir Azam is here, he's the Chief Product Officer of MongoDB, and Guillermo Rauch who's the CEO of Vercel. Hot off the keynotes from this morning guys, good job. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for joining us here. Thanks for having us. Guillermo when it comes to modern web development, you know the back-end, the cloud guys got to it kind of sewn up, >> you know- >> Guillermo: Forget about it. >> But all the action's in the front end, and that's where you are. Explain Vercel. >> Yeah so Vercel is the company that pioneers front-end development as serverless infrastructure. So we built Next.js which is the most popular React framework in the world. This is what front-end engineers choose to build innovative UI's, beautiful websites. Companies like Dior and GitHub and TikTok and Twitch, which we mentioned in the keynote, are powering their entire dot-coms or all of their new parts of their dot-coms with Next.js. And Vercel is the serverless platform where you can deploy frameworks like in Next.js and others like Svelte and Vue to create really fast experiences on the web. >> So I hear, so serverless, I hear that's the hot trend. You guys made some announcements today. I mean when you look at the, we have spending data with our friends at ETR right down the street. I mean it's just off the charts, whether it's Amazon, Google, Azure Functions, I mean it's just exploding. >> Sahir: Yeah, it's I think in many ways, it's a natural trend. You know, we talk a lot about, whether it be today's keynote or another industry talks you see around our industry that developers are constantly looking for ways to focus on innovation and the business logic that defines their application and as opposed to managing the plumbing, and management of infrastructure. And we've seen this happen over and over again across every layer of the stack. And so for us, you know MongoDB, we have a bit of, you know sort of a lens of a broad spectrum of the market. We certainly have you know, large enterprises that are modernizing existing kind of core systems, then we have developers all over the world who are building the next big best thing. And that's what led us to partner with Vercel is just the bleeding edge of developers building in a new way, in a much more efficient way. And we wanted to make sure we provide a data platform that fits naturally in the way they want to work. >> So explain to our audience the trade-offs of serverless, and I want to get into sort of how you've resolved that. And then I want to hear from Guillermo, what that means for developers. >> Sahir: Yeah in our case, we don't view it as an either or, there are certain workloads and definitely certain companies that will gravitate towards a more traditional database infrastructure where they're choosing the configuration of their cluster. They want full control over it. And that provides, you know, certain benefits around cost predictability or isolation or perceived benefits at least of those things. And customers will gravitate towards that. Now on the flip side, if you're building a new application or you want the ability to scale seamlessly and not have to worry about any of the plumbing, serverless is clearly the easier model. So over the long term, we certainly expect to see as a mix of things, more and more serverless workloads being built on our platform and just generally in the industry, which is why we leaned in so heavily on investing in Atlas serverless. But the flexibility to not be forced into a particular model, but to get the same database experience across your application and even switch between them is an important characteristic for us as we build going forward. >> And you stressed the cost efficiency, and not having to worry about, you know, starting cold. You've architected around that, and what does that mean for a developer? >> Guillermo: For a developer it means that you kind of get the best of both worlds, right? Like you get the best possible performance. Front-end developers are extremely sensitive to this. That's why us pioneering this concept, serverless front-end, has put us in a very privileged position because we have to deliver that really quick time to first buy, that really quick paint. So any of the old trade-offs of serverless are not accepted by the market. You have to be extremely fast. You have to be instant to deliver that front-end content. So what we talked about today for example, with the Vercel Edge network, we're removing all of the cost of that like first hit. That cold start doesn't really exist. And now we're seeing it all across the board, going into the back-end where Mongo has also gotten rid of it. >> Dave: How do you guys collaborate? What's the focus of integration specifically from, you know, an engineering resource standpoint? >> Yeah the main idea is, idea to global app in seconds, right? You have your idea. We give you the framework. We don't give you infrastructure primitives. We give you all the necessary tools to start your application. In practice this means you host it in a Git repo. You import it onto Vercel. You install the Mongo integration. Now your front-end and your data back-end are connected. And then your application just goes global in seconds. >> So, okay. So you've abstracted away the complexity of those primitives, is that correct? >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> Do do developers ever say, "That's awesome but I'd like to get to them every now and then." Or do you not allow that? >> Definitely. We expose all the underlying APIs, and the key thing we hear is that, especially with the push for usage-based billing models, observability is of the essence. So at any time you have to be able to query, in real time, every data point that the platform is observing. We give you performance analytics in real time to see how your front-end is performing. We give you statistics about how often you're querying your back-end and so on, and your cache hit ratios. So what I talked about today in the keynote is, it's not just about throwing more compute at the problem, but the ability to use the edge to your advantage to memoize computation and reuse it across different visits. >> When we think of mission critical historically, you know, you think about going to the ATM, right? I mean a financial transaction. But Mongo is positioning for mission critical applications across a variety of industries. Do we need to rethink what mission critical means? >> I think it's all in the eye of the beholder so to speak. If you're a new business starting up, your software and your application is your entire business. So if you have a cold start latency or God forbid something actually goes down, you don't have a business. So it's just as mission critical to that founder of a new business and new technology as it is, you know, an established enterprise that's running sort of a more, you know, day-to-day application that we may all interact with. So we treat all of those scenarios with equal fervor and importance right? And many times, it's a lot of those new experiences that the become the day-to-day experiences for us globally, and are super important. And we power all of those, whether it be an established enterprise all the way to the next big startup. >> I often talk about COVID as the forced march to digital. >> Sahir: Mm-Hmm. >> Which was obviously a little bit rushed, but if you weren't in digital business, you were out of business. And so now you're seeing people step back and say, "All right, let's be more thoughtful about our digital transformation. We've got some time, we've obviously learned some things made some mistakes." It's all about the customer experience though. And that becomes mission critical right? What are you seeing Guillermo, in terms of the patterns in digital transformation now that we're sort of exiting the isolation economy? >> One thing that comes to mind is, we're seeing that it's not always predictable how fast you're going to grow in this digital economy. So we have customers in the ecommerce space, they do a drop and they're piggybacking on serverless to give them that ability to instantly scale. And they couldn't even prepare for some of these events. We see that a lot with the Web3 space and NFT drops, where they're building in such a way that they're not sensitive to this massive fluctuations in traffic. They're taking it for granted. We've put in so much work together behind the scenes to support it. But the digital native creator just, "Oh things are scaling from one second to the next like I'm hitting like 20,000 requests per second, no problem Vercel is handling it." But the amount of infrastructural work that's gone behind the scenes in support has been incredible. >> We see that in gaming all the time, you know it's really hard for a gaming company to necessarily predict where in the globe a game's going to be particularly hot. Games get super popular super fast if they're successful, it's really hard to predict. It's another vertical that's got a similar dynamic. >> So gaming, crypto, so you're saying that you're able to assist your customers in architecting so that the website doesn't crash. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> But at the same time, if the the business dynamic changes, they can dial down. >> Yeah. >> Right and in many ways, slow is the new down, right? And if somebody has a slow experience they're going to leave your site just as much as if it's- >> I'm out of here- >> You were down. So you know, it's really maintaining that really fast performance, that amazing customer experience. Because this is all measured, it's scientific. Like anytime there's friction in the process, you're going to lose customers. >> So obviously people are excited about your keynote, but what have they been saying? Any specific comments you can share, or questions that you got that were really interesting or? >> I'm already getting links to the apps that people are deploying. So the whole idea- >> Come on! >> All over the world. Yeah so it's already working I'm excited. >> So they were show they were showing off, "Look what I did" Really? >> Yeah on Twitter. >> That's amazing. >> I think from my standpoint, I got a question earlier, we were with a bunch of financial analysts and investors, and they said they've been talking to a lot of the customers in the halls. And just to see, you know, from the last time we were all in person, the number of our customers that are using multiple capabilities across this idea of a developer data platform, you know, certainly MongoDB's been a popular core database open source for a long time. But the new capabilities around search, analytics, mobile being adopted much more broadly to power these experiences is the most exciting thing from our side. >> So from 2019 to now, you're saying substantial uptick in adoption for these features? >> Yeah. And many of them are new. >> Time series as well, that's pretty new, so yeah. >> Yeah and you know, our philosophy of development at MongoDB is to get capabilities in the hands of customers early. Get that feedback to enrich and drive that product-market fit. And over the last three years especially, we've been transitioning from a single product kind of core, you know, non relational modern database to a data platform, a developer data platform that adds more and more capabilities to power these modern applications. And a lot of those were released during the pandemic. Certainly we talked about them in our virtual conferences and all the zoom meetings we had over the years. But to actually go talk to all these customers, this is the largest conference we've ever put on, and to get a sense of, wow all the amazing things they're doing with them, it's definitely a different feeling when we're all together. >> So that's interesting, when you have such a hot product, product-led growth which is what Mongo has been in, and you add these new features. They're coming from the developers who are saying, "Hey, we need this." >> Yip. >> Okay so you have a pretty high degree of confidence, but how do you know when you have product-market fit? I mean, is it adoption, usage, renewals? What's your metric? >> Yeah I think it's a mix of quantitative measures that you know, around conversion rates, the size of your funnel, the retention rate, NPS which obviously can be measured, but also just qualitative. You know when you're talking to a developer or a technology executive around what their needs are, and then you see how they actually apply it to solve a problem, it's that balance between the qualitative and the quantitative measurement of things. And you can just sort of, frankly you can feel it. You can see it in the numbers sure, but you can kind of feel that excitement, you can see that adoption and what it empowers people to do. And so to me, as a product leader, it's always a blend of those things. If you get too obsessed with purely the metrics, you can always over optimize something for the wrong reason. So you have to bring in that qualitative feedback to balance yourself out. >> Right. >> Guillermo, what's next? What do you not have that you want from Sahir and Mongo? >> So the natural next step for serverless computing is, is the Edge. So we have to auto-scale, we have to tolerate fares. We have to be avail. We have to be easy, but we have to be global. And right now we've been doing this by using a lot of techniques like caching and replication and things like this. But the future's about personalizing even more to each visitor depending on where they are. So if I'm in New York, I want to get the latest offers for New York on demand, just for me, and using AI to continue to personalize that experience. So giving the developer these tools in a way where it feels natural to build an application like this. It doesn't feel like, "Oh I'm going to do this year 10 if I make it, I'm going to do it since the very beginning." >> Dave: Okay interesting. So that says to me that I'm not going to make a round trip to the cloud necessarily for that experience. So I'm going to have some kind, Apple today, at the Worldwide Developer Conference announced the M2, right. I've been looking at the M1 Ultra, and I'm going wow look at that! And so- >> Sahir: You were talking about that new one backstage. >> I mean it's this amazing pace of Silicon development and they're focusing on the NPU and you look at what Tesla's doing. I mean it's just incredible. So you're going to have some new hardware architecture that emerges. Most of the AI that's done today is modeling in the cloud. You're going to have a real time inferencing at the Edge. So that's not going to do the round trip. There's going to be a data store there, I think it has to be. You're going to persist some of the data, maybe not all of it. So it's a whole new architecture- >> Sahir: Absolutely. >> That's developing. That sounds very disruptive. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> How do you think about that, and how does Mongo play there? Guillermo first. >> What I spent a lot of time thinking about is obviously the developer experience, giving the programmer a programming model that is natural, intuitive, and produces its great results. So if they have to think about data that's local because of regulatory reasons for example, how can we let the framework guide them to success? I'm just writing an application I deployed to the cloud and then everything else is figured out. >> Yeah or speed of light is another challenge. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> How can we overcome the speed of light is our next task for sure. >> Well you're working on that aren't you? You've got the best engineers on that one. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> We can solve a lot of problems, I'm not sure of that one. >> So Mongo plays in that scenario or? >> Yeah so I think, absolutely you know, we've been focused heavily on becoming the globally distributed cloud data layer. The back-end data layer that allows you to persist data to align with performance and move data where it needs to be globally or deal with data sovereignty, data nationalism that's starting to rise, but absolutely there is more data being pushed out to the Edge, to your point around processing or inference happening at the Edge. And there's going to be a globally distributed front-end layer as well, whether data and processing takes apart. And so we're focused on one, making sure the data connectivity and the layer is all connected into one unified architecture. We do that in combination with technologies that we have that do with mobility or edge distribution and synchronization of data with realm. And we do it with partnerships. We have edge partnerships with AWS and Verizon. We have partnerships with a lot of CVM players who are building out that Edge platform and making sure that MongoDB is either connected to it or just driving that synchronization back and forth. >> I call that unified experience super cloud, Robbie Belson from Verizon the cloud continuum, but that consistent experience for developers whether you're on Prim, whether you're in you know, Azure, Google, AWS, and ultimately the Edge. That's the big- >> That's where it's going. >> White space right now I'm hearing, Guillermo, right? >> I think it'll define the next generation of how software is built. And we're seeing this almost like a coalition course between some of the ideas that the Web3 developers are excited about, which is like decentralization almost to the extreme. But the Web2 also needs more decentralization, because we're seeing it with like, the data needs to be local to me, I need more privacy. I was looking at the latest encryption features in Mongo, like I think both Web2 need to incorporate more of the ideas of Web3 and vice versa to create the best possible consumer experience. Privacy matters more than ever before. Latency for conversion matters more than ever before. And regulations are changing. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> And you talked about Web3 earlier, talked about new protocols, a new distributed you know, decentralized system emerging, new hardware architectures. I really believe we really think that new economics are going to bleed back into the data center, and yeah every 15 years or so this industry gets disrupted. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> You know you ain't see nothing yet guys. >> We all talked about hardware becoming commoditized 10, 15 years ago- >> Yeah of course. >> We get the virtualization, and it's like nope not at all. It's actually a lot of invention happening. >> The lower the price the more the consumption. So guys thanks so much. Great conversation. >> Thank you. >> Really appreciate your time. >> Really appreciate it I enjoyed the conversation. >> All right and thanks for watching. Keep it right there. We'll be back with our next segment right after this short break. Dave Vellante for theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. >> Man Offscreen: Clear. (clapping) >> All right wow. Don't get up. >> Sahir: Okay. >> Is that a Moonwatch? >> Sahir: It is a Speedmaster but it's that the-

>> Welcome back to New York City everybody. This is The Cube's coverage of MongoDB World 2022, Dev Ittycheria, here is the president and CEO of MongoDB. Thanks for spending some time with us. >> It's Great to be here Dave, thanks for having me. >> You're very welcome. So your keynotes this morning, I was hearkening back to Steve Ballmer, running around the stage screaming, developers, developers, developers. You weren't jumping around like a madman, but the message was the same. And you've not deviated from that message. I remember when it was 10th Gen, so you've been consistent. >> Yes. >> Why is Mongo DB so alluring to developers? >> Yeah, because I would say the reason we're so popular Dave is that our whole business was founded on the ethos, so making developers incredibly productive. Just getting the infrastructure out of the way so that the developers is really focused on what's important and that's building great applications that transform their business. And the way you do that is you look at where they spend most of the time. and they spend most of the time working with data. How do you present data, the right data, the right time, at the right place, and the right way. And when you remove the friction of working with data, you unleash so much more productivity, which people just say, oh my goodness, I can move so much faster. Product leaders can get products out the door faster than the competitors. Senior level executives can seize new opportunities or respond to new threats. And that was so profound during COVID when everyone had to think about pivoting their business. >> When you came to MongoDB, why did you choose this company? What was it that excited you about it? >> I get that question a lot. I would say conventional wisdom would suggest that MongoDB was not a great choice. There weren't that many companies who were very successful in open source, Red Hat was the only one. No one had really built a deep technology company in New York city. They say, you got to do it in the valley. And database companies need a lot of capital. Now turns out that raising capital of this past decade was a lot easier, but it still takes a lot of time, and a lot of capitals, you have to have a lot of patience. When I did my diligence, I was actually a VC before I joined MongoDB. The whole next generation database segment was really taking off. And actually I looked at some competing investments to MongoDB, and when I did my diligence, it was clear even then. And this is circa 2012, that MongoDB is way ahead in terms of customer attraction, commercials, and even kind of developer mind share. And so I ended up passing those investments. and then lo and behold, I got a call from a very senior executive recruiter who said, Dev, you got to take a meeting with MongoDB, there's something really interesting going on. And they had raised a lot of capital and they had just not been able to kind of really execute in terms of the opportunity. And they realized they needed to make a change. And so one thing led to another. One of the things that really actually convinced me, is when I did my diligence, I realized the customers they had loved MongoDB. They just really weren't executing on all cylinders. And I always believe you never bet against a company whose customers love the product. And said, that's something here. The second thing I would say is open source. Yes, is true that open source was not very successful, but that was open source 1.0. Open source 2.0, the technology is much better than the commercial options. And so that convinced me. And then New York, I lived in New York a big part of my life. I think New York's a fabulous place to build a business. There's so much talent, your customers are right... You walk out the door, there's customers all over the place. And getting to Europe is very easy, Almost like flying to the west coast. So it's a very central place to build a business. >> And it's easier to fix execution, wouldn't you say? And maybe even go to market than it is to fix a product that customers really don't love. >> Correct, it's much easier to fix leadership issues, culture issues, execution issues. Nailing product market fit is very, very hard. And there were signs, there's still some issues, there's still some rough spots, but there a lot of signs that this company was very, very close, and that's why I took the bet. >> And this is before there was that huge influx of capital into the separating compute from storage and the whole cloud thing, which is interesting. Because you take a company like Cloudera, they got caught up in that and got kind of washed over. And I guess you could argue Hortonworks did too, and they could have dead ended both. And then that just didn't work. But it's interesting to see Mongo, the market kind of came to you. And that really does speak to the product. It wasn't a barrier for you. You guys have obviously a lot of work to get into the cloud with Atlas, but it seemed like a natural fit with the product. It wasn't like a complete fork. >> Well, I think the challenge that we had was we had a lot of adoption, but we had tough time commercializing the business. And at some point I had to tell the all employees, it's great that we have all these people who are using MongoDB, but if you don't start generating revenue, our investors are going to get tired of subsidizing this company. So I had to try and change the culture. And as you imagine, the engineers didn't really like the salespeople, the salespeople thought the engineers didn't really want to make any money. And what I said, like, let's all galvanize around customers and let's make them really excited and try and create a lot of value. And so we just put a lot more discipline in terms of how we prosecuted deals. We put a lot more discipline in terms of what are the problems we're trying to solve. And one thing led to another, we started building the business brick by brick. And one of the things that became clear for me was that the old open source model of trying to find that happy medium between what you give away and what you charge for, is always a tough game. Like because finding that where the paywall is, if you give away too much new features, you don't make any money. If you don't give away enough, you don't have any adoption. So you're caught in this catch-22. The best way to monetize open source, is open source as a service. And we saw Amazon do that frankly. We learned a lot from how Amazon did that. And one of the advantages that MongoDB had that I didn't fully appreciate when I joined the company, but I was very grateful. It is that they had a much more restrictive license. Which we ended up actually changing and made it even more restrictive, which allowed us to perfect ourselves from being cannibalized by the cloud providers, so that we could build our own business using our own IP that we had invested in and create a cloud service. >> That was a huge milestone. And of course you have great relationships with all the cloud providers, but it got contentious there for a while, but, you give the cloud providers an inch, they're going to take a mile. That's just the way, they're aggressive like that. But thank you for going through the history with me a little bit, because when you go back to the IPO, IPO was 2017, right? >> Correct. >> I always tell young investors, my kids especially, don't buy a stock at IPO, you're going to have a better chance, but the window from Mongo was very narrow. So, you didn't really get a much better chance a little bit. And then it's been a rocket ship since then. Sure, there's been some volatility, but you look at some of the big IPOs, like Facebook, or Snap, or even Snowflake, there was better opportunities. But you guys have executed really, really well. That's part of your ethos in your management team. And it came across on the earnings call recently. >> Yep. >> It was very optimistic, yet at the same time you set cautious tones and you got, I think high marks. >> Yes. >> For some of that caution but that execution. So talk about where you feel the business is today given the economic uncertainty? >> Well, what I'd say is we feel really good about the long term. We feel like the secular trends are really in our favor. Software's fundamentally transforming every industry. And people want to use modern software to either automate inefficient processes, enable new capabilities, drive better customer experiences. And the level of performance and scale you need for today's modern applications is profoundly different than applications yesterday. So we think we're well positioned for that. What we said on the earnings call was that we started seeing a moderation of growth, slight moderation of growth in our low end of the business in Europe. It was in our self-serve business and in the SMB space for the NQ1, towards the end of Q1. And we saw a little bit of that show up in the self-serve business in may in Q2. And that's why while we raised guidance, we basically quantified the impact, which is roughly about 30 to 35 million for the year, based on what we saw. And in that assumption, we assumed like... We just can't assume it's going to only be at the low in the market, probably some effect at the enterprise market. Maybe not as much, but there'll be some effect. So we need to factor that in. And we wanted to help kind of investors have some sort of framework to think about what the impact is. We don't want to be one of those companies that said absolutely nothing. And we don't want to be one of those companies that just waves the hand, but then it wasn't really that useful for investors. >> Yeah, I thought it was substantive. You talked about those market trends, you cited three things. The developers recognize that there are limits to legacy RDBMS. You talked about the, what I call point solutions creep. And then the document model is the best for developers. >> Great. >> And when the conversation turned to consumption, everybody's concerned about consumption obviously. You said... My take, somewhat insulated from that because you're running mission critical apps. It's not discretionary. My question to you is, should we rethink the definition of mission-critical? You think of Oracle mission critical running a bank. Mission -critical today in this digital world seems to be different, is that fair? >> Gosh, when's the last time you ever saw a website down? Like if you're running like any kind of digital channel, or engaging with the customers, or your partners, or your suppliers, you need to be up all the time. And so you need a very resilient, highly available data platform. It needs to be highly performance as you add more users, you need to be scale. And we saw a lot of that when COVID hit. Like companies had to completely repovit. And we talked about some examples where like a health and beauty retailer who was all kind of basically retail, had to suddenly pivot to e-commerce strategy. We've had streaming and gaming companies suddenly saw this massive influx of data that they scaled their operations very, very quickly. So I would say anytime you're engaging with customers, customers they're so used to the kind of the consumer facing applications. I almost joke like slow is the old down. If you're not performant, it doesn't matter. They're going to abandon you and go somewhere else. So if you're an e-commerce site and you're not performing well and not serving up the right skews, depending on what they're looking for, they're going to go somewhere else. >> So it's a click away. You talk about a hundred billion TAM, maybe that's even undercounted as you start to bring new capabilities in there. But there's no lack of market for you. >> Correct. >> How do you think about the market opportunity? >> Well, we believe... Again, software is transforming so many industries. IDC says that 715 million applications will be built over the next two to three years by 2025. To put that number of perspective, that's more apps that will be built the next three to four years than were built in the last 40. The rate and pace of innovation is as exploding. And people are building custom applications. Yes, Workday, Salesforce, other companies, commercial companies are great companies, but my competitors can use Workday or Salesforce, some of those commercial companies. That doesn't gimme a competitive advantage, what gives me a competitive advantage is building custom software that better engage my customers, that transforms my business in adding new capabilities or drives more efficiency. And the applications are only getting smarter. And so you're seeing that innovation explode and that plays to our strength. People need platforms like MongoDB to build the next generation of applications. >> So Atlas is now roughly 60% of your business, think is growing at 85%. So it's at least the midterm future. But my question to you is, is it the future? 'Cause when we start to think about the edge, it's not necessarily the cloud. You're not going to be able to go that round trip and the latency. And we had Verizon on earlier, talking about what they're doing with 5G, and the Mobile Edge. Is Mongo positioning for that edge? And is our definition of cloud changing? Where it's not just OnPrem and across clouds, but it's also out to the edge, this continuous experience. >> So I'll make two points. One, definitely we believe the applications of the future will be mobile first or purely mobile. Because one with the advent of 5G, the distinction between mobile and web is going to blur, with a hundred times faster networking speeds. But the second point I make is that how that shows up on our revenue on our income table will look like Atlas. Because we don't charge nothing for the end point, it's basically driving consumption of the back end. And so we've introduced a bunch of very, very sophisticated capabilities to synchronized data from the edge to the backend and vice versa with things like flexible sync. So we see so many customers now using that capability, whether you're field service technicians, whether you're a mobile first company, et cetera. So that will drive Atlas revenue. So on an income statement, it'll look like Atlas, but we're obviously addressing those broader set of mobile needs. >> You talk a lot about product market fit former VC, of course, Mark Andreen says, product market fit you kind of know when you see it, your hair's on fire, you can't buy a service. How do you know when you have product market fit? >> Well, one, we have the luxury of lots of customers. So they tell us pretty clearly when they're happy, and we can see that by usage behavior. Now the other benefit of a cloud service, is we can see the level of activity. We can see the level of engagement. We can see how much data they're consuming. We can see all the actions they're taking. So you get the fidelity of feedback you get from Atlas versus someone doing something behind their own firewall. And you kind of call 'em and check in on them is very, very different. So that level of insight gives us visibility in terms of what products and features have been used, gives us a sense how things going well, or is there something awry. Maybe they have misconfigured something or they don't know how to use some capabilities. So the level of engagement that we can have with a customer using a service is so much different. And so we've really invested in our customer success organization. So the byproduct of that is that our retention rates are also very, very strong. Because you have such better information about what's happening in terms of your customers. >> See retention in real time. You've been somewhat... Is just so hard to say this 'cause you're growing at 50% a year. But you're somewhat conservative about the pace of hiring for go to market. And I'm curious as to how you think about scaling, especially when you introduce new products. Atlas is several years ago. But as you extend your capabilities and add new products, how do you decide when to scale? >> So it's a constant process. We've been quite aggressive in scaling organization for a couple reasons. One, we have very low market share, so the market's vastly under penetrated. We still don't have reps in every NFL sitting in the United States, which just kind of crazy. There's other parts of the world that we are just still vastly under penetrated in. But we also look at how those organizations are doing. So if we see a team really killing it, we're going to deploy more resources. Because one, it tells us there's more opportunity there, and there's a strong team there. If we see a team that maybe is struggling a little bit, we'll try and uncover. Rather than just applying more resources in, we'll try and uncover what are the issues and make sure we stabilize the organization and then devote resources. It's all in the measure of like being very disciplined about where we deploy our resources, to get those kind of returns. And on the product side, we obviously go through a very iterative process and kind of do rank order all the projects and what we think the expected returns are. Obviously, we look at the customer feedback, we look at what our strategic priorities are. And that informs what projects we fund and what projects kind of are below the line. And we do that over and over again every quarter. So every quarter we revisit the business, we have a very QBR centric culture. So we're constantly checking in and seeing how the business is operating. And then we make those investment decisions. In general, we've been investing very aggressively in terms of expanding our reach around the world. >> It seems like, well, with Mongo, your product portfolios... From an outside observer standpoint, it seems like you've always had pretty good product market fit. But I was curious, in your VC days, would you ever encourage companies to scale go to market prior to having confidence in product market fit? Or did you always see those as sequential activities? >> Well, I think the challenge is this part it's analysis part is judgment. So you don't necessarily have to have perfect product market fit to start investing. But you also don't want to plow a bunch of resources and realize the product doesn't work and then how you're burning through a lot of cash. So there's a little bit of art to the process. When I joined MongoDB, I could tell that we had a strong engineering team. They knew how to build high quality products, but we just struggled with commercialization. The culture wasn't great across the company. And we had some leadership challenges. So that's when I joined, I kind of focused on those things and tried to bring the organization together. And slowly we started chipping away and making people feel like they were winners. And once you start winning, that becomes contagious. And then the nice thing is when you start winning, you get a lot more customer feedback. That feedback helps you refine your products even more, which then adds... It's like the flywheel effect that starts taking off. >> So it seems the culture's working now. Do you have a favorite product from the announcements today? >> Well, I really like our foray to analytics. And essentially what we're seeing is really two big trends. One you're seeing applications get smarter. What applications are doing is really automating a lot of processes and rather than someone having to press a button. Based on analytics, you can automate a lot of decision making. So that's one theme that we're seeing as applications get smarter. The second theme is that people want more and more insight in terms of what's happening. And the source of that is insights is your operational database. Because that's where you're having transactions, that's where you know what products are selling, that's where you know what customers are buying. So people want more and more real time data versus waiting to take that data, put it somewhere else and then run reports and then get some update at the end of the night or maybe at the week. So that's driving a lot of really interesting use cases. And especially when you marry in things like time series use cases where you're collecting a lot of data people want to see trend analysis what's happening. Which I think it's a very exciting area. We introduced a very cool feature called Queryable Encryption, which basically... The problem with encrypting data, is you can't really query it because my definition's encrypted. >> Yeah, you're right. >> But obviously data security is very important. What we announced, is we're using very sophisticated cryptography. People can query the data, but they don't have really access to the data. So it really protects you from like data breaches or malicious users accessing your data, but you still can kind of make that data usable. So that was a very interesting announcer that we made today. >> Sounds like magic without the performance hit. >> Yes. >> You can do that. Dev, thanks so much for coming in The Cube. Congratulations on all activity, bumper sticker on day one. >> Oh, it's super exciting. The energy was palpable, 3,300 people in the room, lots of customers, lots of users. We had lots of investors here as well for our investor day, have a dinner tonight with a bunch of senior execs, so it's been a busy day. >> Future is bright for MongoBD. Dev, thanks for so much for coming on The Cube. And thanks for watching, this is Dave Vellante and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)