>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> After a two-year epic run in tech, 2022 has been an epically bad year. Through yesterday, The NASDAQ composite is down 30%. The S$P 500 is off 21%. And the Dow Jones Industrial average 16% down. And the poor holders at Bitcoin have had to endure a nearly 60% decline year to date. But judging by the attendance and enthusiasm, in major in-person tech events this spring. You'd never know that tech was in the tank. Moreover, walking around the streets of Las Vegas, where most tech conferences are held these days. One can't help but notice that the good folks of Main Street, don't seem the least bit concerned that the economy is headed for a recession. Hello, and welcome to this weeks Wiki Bond Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis we'll share our main takeaways from the first half of 2022. And talk about the outlook for tech going forward, and why despite some pretty concerning headwinds we remain sanguine about tech generally, but especially enterprise tech. Look, here's the bumper sticker on why many folks are really bearish at the moment. Of course, inflation is high, other than last year, the previous inflation high this century was in July of 2008, it was 5.6%. Inflation has proven to be very, very hard to tame. You got gas at $7 dollars a gallon. Energy prices they're not going to suddenly drop. Interest rates are climbing, which will eventually damage housing. Going to have that ripple effect, no doubt. We're seeing layoffs at companies like Tesla and the crypto names are also trimming staff. Workers, however are still in short supply. So wages are going up. Companies in retail are really struggling with the right inventory, and they can't even accurately guide on their earnings. We've seen a version of this movie before. Now, as it pertains to tech, Crawford Del Prete, who's the CEO of IDC explained this on theCUBE this very week. And I thought he did a really good job. He said the following, >> Matt, you have a great statistic that 80% of companies used COVID as their point to pivot into digital transformation. And to invest in a different way. And so what we saw now is that tech is now where I think companies need to focus. They need to invest in tech. They need to make people more productive with tech and it played out in the numbers. Now so this year what's fascinating is we're looking at two vastly different markets. We got gasoline at $7 a gallon. We've got that affecting food prices. Interesting fun fact recently it now costs over $1,000 to fill an 18 wheeler. All right, based on, I mean, this just kind of can't continue. So you think about it. >> Don't put the boat in the water. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good luck if ya, yeah exactly. So a family has kind of this bag of money, and that bag of money goes up by maybe three, 4% every year, depending upon earnings. So that is sort of sloshing around. So if food and fuel and rent is taking up more, gadgets and consumer tech are not, you're going to use that iPhone a little longer. You're going to use that Android phone a little longer. You're going to use that TV a little longer. So consumer tech is getting crushed, really it's very, very, and you saw it immediately in ad spending. You've seen it in Meta, you've seen it in Facebook. Consumer tech is doing very, very, it is tough. Enterprise tech, we haven't been in the office for two and a half years. We haven't upgraded whether that be campus wifi, whether that be servers, whether that be commercial PCs as much as we would have. So enterprise tech, we're seeing double digit order rates. We're seeing strong, strong demand. We have combined that with a component shortage, and you're seeing some enterprise companies with a quarter of backlog, I mean that's really unheard of. >> And higher prices, which also profit. >> And therefore that drives up the prices. >> And this is a theme that we've heard this year at major tech events, they've really come roaring back. Last year, theCUBE had a huge presence at AWS Reinvent. The first Reinvent since 2019, it was really well attended. Now this was before the effects of the omicron variant, before they were really well understood. And in the first quarter of 2022, things were pretty quiet as far as tech events go But theCUBE'a been really busy this spring and early into the summer. We did 12 physical events as we're showing here in the slide. Coupa, did Women in Data Science at Stanford, Coupa Inspire was in Las Vegas. Now these are both smaller events, but they were well attended and beat expectations. San Francisco Summit, the AWS San Francisco Summit was a bit off, frankly 'cause of the COVID concerns. They were on the rise, then we hit Dell Tech World which was packed, it had probably around 7,000 attendees. Now Dockercon was virtual, but we decided to include it here because it was a huge global event with watch parties and many, many tens of thousands of people attending. Now the Red Hat Summit was really interesting. The choice that Red Hat made this year. It was purposefully scaled down and turned into a smaller VIP event in Boston at the Western, a couple thousand people only. It was very intimate with a much larger virtual presence. VeeamON was very well attended, not as large as previous VeeamON events, but again beat expectations. KubeCon and Cloud Native Con was really successful in Spain, Valencia, Spain. PagerDuty Summit was again a smaller intimate event in San Francisco. And then MongoDB World was at the new Javits Center and really well attended over the three day period. There were lots of developers there, lots of business people, lots of ecosystem partners. And then the Snowflake summit in Las Vegas, it was the most vibrant from the standpoint of the ecosystem with nearly 10,000 attendees. And I'll come back to that in a moment. Amazon re:Mars is the Amazon AI robotic event, it's smaller but very, very cool, a lot of innovation. And just last week we were at HPE Discover. They had around 8,000 people attending which was really good. Now I've been to over a dozen HPE or HPE Discover events, within Europe and the United States over the past decade. And this was by far the most vibrant, lot of action. HPE had a little spring in its step because the company's much more focused now but people was really well attended and people were excited to be there, not only to be back at physical events, but also to hear about some of the new innovations that are coming and HPE has a long way to go in terms of building out that ecosystem, but it's starting to form. So we saw that last week. So tech events are back, but they are smaller. And of course now a virtual overlay, they're hybrid. And just to give you some context, theCUBE did, as I said 12 physical events in the first half of 2022. Just to compare that in 2019, through June of that year we had done 35 physical events. Yeah, 35. And what's perhaps more interesting is we had our largest first half ever in our 12 year history because we're doing so much hybrid and virtual to compliment the physical. So that's the new format is CUBE plus digital or sometimes just digital but that's really what's happening in our business. So I think it's a reflection of what's happening in the broader tech community. So everyone's still trying to figure that out but it's clear that events are back and there's no replacing face to face. Or as I like to say, belly to belly, because deals are done at physical events. All these events we've been to, the sales people are so excited. They're saying we're closing business. Pipelines coming out of these events are much stronger, than they are out of the virtual events but the post virtual event continues to deliver that long tail effect. So that's not going to go away. The bottom line is hybrid is the new model. Okay let's look at some of the big themes that we've taken away from the first half of 2022. Now of course, this is all happening under the umbrella of digital transformation. I'm not going to talk about that too much, you've had plenty of DX Kool-Aid injected into your veins over the last 27 months. But one of the first observations I'll share is that the so-called big data ecosystem that was forming during the hoop and around, the hadoop infrastructure days and years. then remember it dispersed, right when the cloud came in and kind of you know, not wiped out but definitely dampened the hadoop enthusiasm for on-prem, the ecosystem dispersed, but now it's reforming. There are large pockets that are obviously seen in the various clouds. And we definitely see a ecosystem forming around MongoDB and the open source community gathering in the data bricks ecosystem. But the most notable momentum is within the Snowflake ecosystem. Snowflake is moving fast to win the day in the data ecosystem. They're providing a single platform that's bringing different data types together. Live data from systems of record, systems of engagement together with so-called systems of insight. These are converging and while others notably, Oracle are architecting for this new reality, Snowflake is leading with the ecosystem momentum and a new stack is emerging that comprises cloud infrastructure at the bottom layer. Data PaaS layer for app dev and is enabling an ecosystem of partners to build data products and data services that can be monetized. That's the key, that's the top of the stack. So let's dig into that further in a moment but you're seeing machine intelligence and data being driven into applications and the data and application stacks they're coming together to support the acceleration of physical into digital. It's happening right before our eyes in every industry. We're also seeing the evolution of cloud. It started with the SaaS-ification of the enterprise where organizations realized that they didn't have to run their own software on-prem and it made sense to move to SaaS for CRM or HR, certainly email and collaboration and certain parts of ERP and early IS was really about getting out of the data center infrastructure management business called that cloud 1.0, and then 2.0 was really about changing the operating model. And now we're seeing that operating model spill into on-prem workloads finally. We're talking about here about initiatives like HPE's Green Lake, which we heard a lot about last week at Discover and Dell's Apex, which we heard about in May, in Las Vegas. John Furrier had a really interesting observation that basically this is HPE's and Dell's version of outposts. And I found that interesting because outpost was kind of a wake up call in 2018 and a shot across the bow at the legacy enterprise infrastructure players. And they initially responded with these flexible financial schemes, but finally we're seeing real platforms emerge. Again, we saw this at Discover and at Dell Tech World, early implementations of the cloud operating model on-prem. I mean, honestly, you're seeing things like consoles and billing, similar to AWS circa 2014, but players like Dell and HPE they have a distinct advantage with respect to their customer bases, their service organizations, their very large portfolios, especially in the case of Dell and the fact that they have more mature stacks and knowhow to run mission critical enterprise applications on-prem. So John's comment was quite interesting that these firms are basically building their own version of outposts. Outposts obviously came into their wheelhouse and now they've finally responded. And this is setting up cloud 3.0 or Supercloud, as we like to call it, an abstraction layer, that sits above the clouds that serves as a unifying experience across a continuum of on-prem across clouds, whether it's AWS, Azure, or Google. And out to both the near and far edge, near edge being a Lowes or a Home Depot, but far edge could be space. And that edge again is fragmented. You've got the examples like the retail stores at the near edge. Outer space maybe is the far edge and IOT devices is perhaps the tiny edge. No one really knows how the tiny edge is going to play out but it's pretty clear that it's not going to comprise traditional X86 systems with a cool name tossed out to the edge. Rather, it's likely going to require a new low cost, low power, high performance architecture, most likely RM based that will enable things like realtime AI inferencing at that edge. Now we've talked about this a lot on Breaking Analysis, so I'm not going to double click on it. But suffice to say that it's very possible that new innovations are going to emerge from the tiny edge that could really disrupt the enterprise in terms of price performance. Okay, two other quick observations. One is that data protection is becoming a much closer cohort to the security stack where data immutability and air gaps and fast recovery are increasingly becoming a fundamental component of the security strategy to combat ransomware and recover from other potential hacks or disasters. And I got to say from our observation, Veeam is leading the pack here. It's now claiming the number one revenue spot in a statistical dead heat with the Dell's data protection business. That's according to Veeam, according to IDC. And so that space continues to be of interest. And finally, Broadcom's acquisition of Dell. It's going to have ripple effects throughout the enterprise technology business. And there of course, there are a lot of questions that remain, but the one other thing that John Furrier and I were discussing last night John looked at me and said, "Dave imagine if VMware runs better on Broadcom components and OEMs that use Broadcom run VMware better, maybe Broadcom doesn't even have to raise prices on on VMware licenses. Maybe they'll just raise prices on the OEMs and let them raise prices to the end customer." Interesting thought, I think because Broadcom is so P&L focused that it's probably not going to be the prevailing model but we'll see what happens to some of the strategic projects rather like Monterey and Capitola and Thunder. We've talked a lot about project Monterey, the others we'll see if they can make the cut. That's one of the big concerns because it's how OEMs like the ones that are building their versions of outposts are going to compete with the cloud vendors, namely AWS in the future. I want to come back to the comment on the data stack for a moment that we were talking about earlier, we talked about how the big data ecosystem that was once coalescing around hadoop dispersed. Well, the data value chain is reforming and we think it looks something like this picture, where cloud infrastructure lives at the bottom. We've said many times the cloud is expanding and evolving. And if companies like Dell and HPE can truly build a super cloud infrastructure experience then they will be in a position to capture more of the data value. If not, then it's going to go to the cloud players. And there's a live data layer that is increasingly being converged into platforms that not only simplify the movement in ELTing of data but also allow organizations to compress the time to value. Now there's a layer above that, we sometimes call it the super PaaS layer if you will, that must comprise open source tooling, partners are going to write applications and leverage platform APIs and build data products and services that can be monetized at the top of the stack. So when you observe the battle for the data future it's unlikely that any one company is going to be able to do this all on their own, which is why I often joke that the 2020s version of a sweaty Steve Bomber running around the stage, screaming, developers, developers developers, and getting the whole audience into it is now about ecosystem ecosystem ecosystem. Because when you need to fill gaps and accelerate features and provide optionality a list of capabilities on the left hand side of this chart, that's going to come from a variety of different companies and places, we're talking about catalogs and AI tools and data science capabilities, data quality, governance tools and it should be of no surprise to followers of Breaking Analysis that on the right hand side of this chart we're including the four principles of data mesh, which of course were popularized by Zhamak Dehghani. So decentralized data ownership, data as products, self-serve platform and automated or computational governance. Now whether this vision becomes a reality via a proprietary platform like Snowflake or somehow is replicated by an open source remains to be seen but history generally shows that a defacto standard for more complex problems like this is often going to emerge prior to an open source alternative. And that would be where I would place my bets. Although even that proprietary platform has to include open source optionality. But it's not a winner take all market. It's plenty of room for multiple players and ecosystem innovators, but winner will definitely take more in my opinion. Okay, let's close with some ETR data that looks at some of those major platform plays who talk a lot about digital transformation and world changing impactful missions. And they have the resources really to compete. This is an XY graphic. It's a view that we often show, it's got net score on the vertical access. That's a measure of spending momentum, and overlap or presence in the ETR survey. That red, that's the horizontal access. The red dotted line at 40% indicates that the platform is among the highest in terms of spending velocity. Which is why I always point out how impressive that makes AWS and Azure because not only are they large on the horizontal axis, the spending momentum on those two platforms rivals even that of Snowflake which continues to lead all on the vertical access. Now, while Google has momentum, given its goals and resources, it's well behind the two leaders. We've added Service Now and Salesforce, two platform names that have become the next great software companies. Joining likes of Oracle, which we show here and SAP not shown along with IBM, you can see them on this chart. We've also plotted MongoDB, which we think has real momentum as a company generally but also with Atlas, it's managed cloud database as a service specifically and Red Hat with trying to become the standard for app dev in Kubernetes environments, which is the hottest trend right now in application development and application modernization. Everybody's doing something with Kubernetes and of course, Red Hat with OpenShift wants to make that a better experience than do it yourself. The DYI brings a lot more complexity. And finally, we've got HPE and Dell both of which we've talked about pretty extensively here and VMware and Cisco. Now Cisco is executing on its portfolio strategy. It's got a lot of diverse components to its company. And it's coming at the cloud of course from a networking and security perspective. And that's their position of strength. And VMware is a staple of the enterprise. Yes, there's some uncertainty with regards to the Broadcom acquisition, but one thing is clear vSphere isn't going anywhere. It's entrenched and will continue to run lots of IT for years to come because it's the best platform on the planet. Now, of course, these are just some of the players in the mix. We expect that numerous non-traditional technology companies this is important to emerge as new cloud players. We've put a lot of emphasis on the data ecosystem because to us that's really going to be the main spring of digital, i.e., a digital company is a data company and that means an ecosystem of data partners that can advance outcomes like better healthcare, faster drug discovery, less fraud, cleaner energy, autonomous vehicles that are safer, smarter, more efficient grids and factories, better government and virtually endless litany of societal improvements that can be addressed. And these companies will be building innovations on top of cloud platforms creating their own super clouds, if you will. And they'll come from non-traditional places, industries, finance that take their data, their software, their tooling bring them to their customers and run them on various clouds. Okay, that's it for today. Thanks to Alex Myerson, who is on production and does the podcast for Breaking Analysis, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight, they help get the word out. And Rob Hoofe is our editor and chief over at Silicon Angle who helps edit our posts. Remember all these episodes are available as podcasts wherever you listen. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can email me directly at david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me at dvellante, or comment on my LinkedIn posts. And please do check out etr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE's Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching be well. And we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (upbeat music)

>>Mhm Yes. Hello. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of red hat summit 2021 Virtual. I'm john for your host of the cube we're here with Roberto Pellegrini, head of architecture and digital ai services from stam he's remote promoting in from Milan Italy Roberto. Great to see you. Thanks for joining us on the cube. >>Great to see you too john. Thanks for having me here. >>Love the virtual events. We can bring people in from all around the world. I love the virtual. I mean it's one of the trade us for not being in person as we can still get you in. Thanks for coming on. Before we get started. I want to dig into the digital architecture of what you guys are doing. Very compelling in a hybrid cloud. It's got you got all the things going on which I like. But before we start, can you provide a short overview of Snam who are your customers? What is your company's focus and what's your role there? >>Sure. So his name is one of the worst leading energy infrastructure operators. And we basically beat the energy infrastructures and offering the way the services our mission is to guide the evolution of the energy sector and leave the energy transition to a low carbon future. And as you can see in our last investment plan, we declared our net zero-carbon objective to bridge by 2040. This is why we basically are investing a lot in uh, technology in renovating our technology stack in order to provide our business line with the most innovative sustainable energy network, thanks to which we are already guaranteeing stable supplies to europe of natural gas. >>Love your title. Love the fact you've got the ai piece in there. Um, what about specifically is your role? What do you oversee? >>I'm responsible for architecture, digital and artificial intelligence services. That basically means that uh, with with my team and my extended team of the digital technology department are designing the entire technology stack for islam. And I'm specifically focusing more on developing intelligent than usable services for our business lines >>awesome. You guys were there, it's nam have transformed a lot the stack. That's cool. When you get into that, you redesign your applications map. Right? So it's really edge to cloud now. Edge up to the cloud. What were the business drivers and the objectives to reach that goal? Because that's really a great use case. I mean you got the edge to deal with intelligent, you got industrial, global business drivers and objectives. >>Yeah. Our main business drivers has always been to to increase the effectiveness of our processes and business lines so bear support the decision of our internal line of business. And we soon discover that we need a more data in order to do that. And we structure very extensive of your program. But those data provide information about internal states of our assets because they're coming from the census and we thought what about the environment in which our assets are located. So uh following up on that we integrated data coming from remote sensing technologies. So think about drones and satellites. Major data and we soon discover that we needed to renew and extend our technology stack from edge to cloud as you said. And to be the scalable that the platform in order to process this new level of uh data this way we think we will be able to enter the new volume of data that we predict. It will be 100 times what we currently manage and efficiently use AI and machine learning to the riding side from this new scale and complexity. So we're talking about big data >>repairs. I gotta ask you could you take a minute to describe your transformation journey you guys went through and how red hat helped you guys execute the digital transformation? >>Yeah we basically started working in 2018. We read up to set up our 12 grade in a snap. We basically needed to decide what to scale what you lift and shift what we factor in order to move our application to a modern architectural stack. And right up to us with this uh we use open ship for our container orchestration platform and from this we're developing our new application act. Then in 2019 we decided to accelerate the moving of our application workloads. We started moving 10-20 of our work clothes on open shift. And since then most of our new software project Islam, a club native and developed on open shifts. We're still in the process of leveraging modern architecture. So microservices based and using our continual construction platform and other software as a service platform in order to complete the modernization of our application that And we are targeting 2023 2024 to complete the entire process but as you know, is an ever changing landscape. So you basically never complete such a task in some way. >>Do you see red hat technology helping stem in its ecosystem for energy efficiency and aiming for low carbon emissions? >>I think that open ship provide provide us with the right level of flexibility and agility to move at the speed of our new businesses. That's one way to look at the quest and the other one. Uh huh. I think it would be in terms of energy efficiency and the carbon footprint that our application workloads generate. And I think that uh in that in that respect it could happen in the mid to long term, probably so it will be in proportion to the workloads. We will be able to re factor as purely reactive so as non blocking apps. This probably in fact for the same business service could improve the effective resource consumption, so indirectly saving energy and CO two, >>you know, I love this conversation and I know you're in Italy and wish we could be in person but I'm glad to get you on because you guys are kind of an example of the main theme at the conference this year, which is an edge, you know, intelligent edge and IOT, but you know, I O T has been around for a while and we've talked about it before, but now with the cloud and connecting to the cloud, that's a huge topic here at red hat summit 2021 you guys are well versed on the call O. T. Technology operational technologies and what's interesting is kubernetes and containerized orchestration all help operators, operations people. So you have this ot tight integration where the operational technology, old school technology people and the stack and the people in the disciplines are meeting the old I. T. And creating a new thing. So I have to ask you, what are these, what's that world like what are some of the use cases that you're working on and you're planning to deploy? >>Yeah. Yeah. Yeah exactly. It's exactly like that name has a long ot history as you said. So right now we have a complex brownfield uh, situation for our edges and gateways on the field. There are various technical components that resigns on the field. You must consider that Italian network, the Italian Transportation Network has more than 34,000 km of pipeline and differently sides of plants across the country. So we have several already several use cases currently running on our data centers that could benefit we think from distributed processing at the edge. Think about for example physical security. So just to give you an example privacy preserving local video processing for anomaly detection done at the edge, it's much more effective in our opinion. Poor hierarchical processing for data intensive task that involves field data so that you can process the data coming from the field at different level and take to the central data center only was needed. And we're also working on the usual problem there is with with the Widow Tea with the operation of the countries that is standardization. So we have many exogenous components and communication protocol there and you know without a proper rieti stack gathering and normalizing the data for a higher level process could become cumbersome. So security is also is also a relevant topic because it is usually preserve and the physical and natural layer and we we think that we can introduce variety pre main improvements about this. We're expanding the level of cybersec to the food technologists act, bringing modern internet security standard to the edge. We're pushing continue realization to the edge, being able to orchestrate our work clothes from data centers to the cloud. And we think that we this will provide us with a high level of flexibility and a better exploitation of the geographical distribution of our data. And last but not least we're standardizing our gateways and edges and this will help us streamline the message of the transfer conversion and normalization uh of the data we will receive from the field >>awesome. I gotta, I gotta ask for such a great job on the edge. I think that's a great vision. Uh building insecurity, it's important having that edge intelligent is really well done. Congratulations. Love the vision. I gotta ask you, what's your future plans for um Snam technology journey as a whole. What's your vision? What's your next step? >>So well, what we would like to focus on uh in the coming years is how to best leverage the average cloud environment we currently set up. So right now we have an average cloud environment with the data center and one cloud tenant and having our poor clothes running on open ship would make it easier for us to leverage the offering of different club providers and of course to best exploit what we currently have on our tenants. Second one is find the best way to leverage IOT. So as I said before, our focus in the coming years will be to complete our IOT foundation, rolling out our edges are gateways and put our new unified opposition system to work. And this will provide the computational backbone of our intelligent investments. And finally, uh and this is a less objective that is will be built on top of the other two. We must find different ways and export different ways to leverage data and artificial intelligence. So we need to exploit our data uh in order to generate insight for our business lines. Need to the scale of our new data streams, artificial intelligence machine learning, we think will be ubiquitous in our applications right now. We're already using it but not at the scale uh that the new data streams uh well we'll need and most of the algorithms are working on data that are apart from legacy system and scare the system. So they are specifically created for each project. We're about to begin an exciting data journey where everything will reside on a unified data platform and our data scientists, our data analyst in the business lines will be able to derive value from them >>awesome. You know, you guys are great customer use case. I love the real operational impact. I talked with a lot of other practitioners and end user enterprises and I get the same question and I got the statement. They say actually security needs to be built in, but the challenges and where they want to, what they want to do. And I want to get your thoughts on this. If you don't mind commenting, they all say, I want to run cloud native applications, cloud native applications from my data center to the cloud and then out to the edge and with this as a distributed platform, one operation set, whether it's O T I T I want to make that, that's my endgame. In the short term, I get there fast. So I gotta ask you for those people that want that is open shift, a good solution for that. In your opinion, >>we, we of course think it is uh, it is part of our IOT foundation, uh, is not the only technology components, but is one of the, one of the most relevant and it is absolutely happiness in uh, enabling the possibility of orchestrating more clothes uh, from the cloud to the edge. And we will be able to give you more information about that as soon as uh, we will release the first Distribue work clothes within 2021. So I'll be happy to to answer any any questions from our peers or or other colleagues from other industries. >>You guys have thousands and thousands of sites. This is the classic industrial edge implementation, closely monitoring just monitoring the pipes. I mean, you gotta monitoring the system just physically. I mean, this is like a, just a physical thing. So now as you have technology, you guys have to monitor and get that early detection of any gas leaks, this is critical to your business. Um how is that changing? How is that environment changing with technology is more automated? What's your vision? How are you guys looking at that? >>Well, we, we surely are trying to move along to two main drivers. The first is um, unification and standardization of how we monitor all these distributed technology stock. This is very important because even for the simplest use case, you're now dealing with distributed application and this is a entirely different game to what we are used to basically. And and um uh the the other rather the other relevant thing is how can we get the best from um the machines we put on the field. So in other in other in other terms, how can we standardize how we connect to the machines we have on the field and how much intelligence we need to put there and how to test it. And in order to do that, we're thinking about um building a digital twin of our assets that will enable us to being able to test and to end before getting to the real thing on field. How will it work? What are the security vulnerabilities, potential security vulnerability and other aspects uh of the technology infrastructure and the data infrastructure? And we think this is very important because in some way uh in order to provide the acceleration and the scale that we uh are going to provide uh to, to our company, we need to be sure well in advance that what we designed will work in practice without getting to the field. We would like to get into the field where everything is already tested, >>repair too. Great to have you on the cube. Great to see you. Thanks for coming in from Milan Italy. Um cute virtual. It's one of the benefits and hope to see you in person soon at the next event. But great use case, love your environment, love how you're looking at that platform is a distributed platform and bringing that O T T together data center to the cloud to the edge. That's a really relevant use case and architecture. So congratulations. >>Thank you very much, john and I hope to see you too very soon. Alive >>when I'm in Italy, we're gonna come by and do a site visit and uh, see each other coming on. I appreciate it. Thank you. >>Absolutely. >>Okay. Cube coverage for Red Hat Summit 2021. I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2021 virtual. I'm John furrier, host of theCUBE We've got a great segment with a customer Roberto Calandrini, Head of Architecture, Digital and AI services for Snam customer need to leak oil and gas and AI services for Snam customer need to leak oil and gas great industrial IOT and digital transformation. Roberto, thank you for coming on the cube and spending the time. >> Hi, John. Good to see you. Thank you for inviting me. >> That's awesome. Before we get started, I love the story and again I think security edge and in, in in disease industry for disruptions is huge story here. But before we get started, talk about Snam. Give me a quick overview of Snam, who you guys are. What's your focus customers you have and your role there. >> Of course. So it was not is one of the major global energy infrastructure company and is managing a international and a national asset specifically and a national asset specifically in the natural gas utility segment. There's what the story Kelly Snam did. And it recently positioned itself as a leader of the energy transition, investing a lot in startups of the energy transition, investing a lot in startups mostly focused on, for example, H2 so hydrogen, these the very recent topic, bio Nathan with numb for environment sustainable mobility, energy efficiency, and reforestation. So we kind of So we kind of expanded our core businesses in terms of positioning ourselves much more within the energy transition segments and still developing a lot, what we used to do in the natural gas, in the natural gas industry. And my role there is, as you said, Head of Architecture And my role there is, as you said, Head of Architecture Digital and AI Services. So I'm basically responsible for managing the entire technology stack of Snam and focusing a lot on developing artificial intelligence services for our business lines. >> That's awesome. Well, thanks for sharing that. Let's talk about the digital transmission you've been rearchitecting. You guys redesign your applications map impacting your architecture from the data center to the edge recently, even the center of that your responsibility for the business. What were the business drivers and objectives for you to reach that transformation goal and target? >> Yeah, thanks for, for the question. So they basically, we were mainly interested in exploiting three main three main objectives with our transformation. The first was very much related to our business strategy. So having a more agile So having a more agile and flexible digital architecture that will still on one one end provide us with the reliability that we need in order to sustain our business critical application. And on the other end, provide the agility And on the other end, provide the agility and flexibility the speed in some sense that our new business line will lead in order to succeed. So let's say speed and agility. The second one was a focus on platformization and servitization of our industry specific application. So what we used to develop, as So what we used to develop, as let's say, very focused full stack application now, thanks to the modern architectures can be developed on top of platforms or using microservices. on top of platforms or using microservices. And that will apart from providing us agility And that will apart from providing us agility and flexibility will give us more alignment will give us more alignment between what we invest. So the cost of our software development efforts So the cost of our software development efforts and the business value we derive and the business value we derive from the software we produce basically. >> John: Can I... >> So I focus on value. >> Can I ask you real quick on the business drivers? Can you talk about the impact of domain expertise? One of the trends we're seeing is you want to scale of cloud and having an architecture that's going to enable value creation and customer value for your customers but in these vertical disruptions these new opportunities in these industries like you're a very specialized industry get natural gas and you still need that domain expertise if you want to tap in and advantage of the AI. >> Absolutely. >> Can you share your vision on how you're doing that and how that relates to the business driver? >> Yeah. So let's say that this is very, very aligned with >> Yeah. So let's say that this is very, very aligned with with our strategy that focuses with our strategy that focuses on platformization servitization. So if you think So if you think about how we can explore the best, the value of our people so our industry specific expertise, there are two main ways. The first is to build from scratch as we used to do The first is to build from scratch as we used to do in the past full stack applications that are really focused on a specific, this specific need of a business line. And so focused on the business side of the industry or we can leverage modern architecture and develop services that serve that specific need. and develop services that serve that specific need. So this will let us basically being able to So this will let us basically being able to So this will let us basically being able to satisfy our internal customer. So our internal clients and the business need and at the same time, being able to use that software so that service for an external customer or potential potentially for, for our peers. So in order to provide value exploiting our business expertise, in order to, for example you cited AI using what we developed as an AI system, for example, for two in order to solve demand for customer problems and provide that same business value for, for for other companies that are are they share our same business need. >> Yeah. It's a data workload. I mean, it's at the end of the day you need the data >> Exactly. >> and that's going to come back. I want to unpack the data workload when we talk about the edge, but real quick, I want to talk about the role red hat played in your journey to execute your architecture and transformation. Can you share how Red Hat helped you in this? >> Sure. So let's say that, you know, >> Sure. So let's say that, you know, it all began in two, 2018. it all began in two, 2018. When we started to set up our cloud readiness map When we started to set up our cloud readiness map in order to assess what we will, we'll be able to transform. in order to assess what we will, we'll be able to transform. So scale lift and shift or refactor of of our application map into a modern architecture application. into a modern architecture application. So this cloud readiness journey started So this cloud readiness journey started with assessing the level of modularity with assessing the level of modularity with assessing the level of modularity in some way of some of our main applications. And what we started to do is to develop the first blueprints in order to start to develop new system in order to start to develop new system and new application on a cloud native framework and new application on a cloud native framework and Red Hat really Apple with this but providing a container orchestration platform OpenShift on which we started to build up our new, our new application, that up our new, our new application, that so the cloud native application by application map so the cloud native application by application map then in 2019, we started to accelerate this then in 2019, we started to accelerate this let's say moving to a CNA environment journey. let's say moving to a CNA environment journey. let's say moving to a CNA environment journey. And we started to move the first 10 to 20% And we started to move the first 10 to 20% of our workload on the platform as a service environment. of our workload on the platform as a service environment. So an OpenShift and this is something that we are still doing while at the same time, developing different project at the same time, developing different project that tries to turn what we used to have developed that tries to turn what we used to have developed as custom application toward platforms. as custom application toward platforms. So we are basically transforming our application map leveraging the power for what regards to the customer application of modern architectures. So microservices bays So microservices bays and the container orchestration platform provided by Red Hat OpenShift. And at the same time the other main technological driver is platform migration. the other main technological driver is platform migration. So with basically trying to leverage, especially for the processes that are already very standardized. for the processes that are already very standardized. So usually corporate processes. So staff SEF function processes what we're doing there is to build on top of very what we're doing there is to build on top of very let's say industry standard platform. I don't want to, to provide you with names but you can imagine most but you can imagine most of them are software as a service platforms. And this is really happiness because we are as a target. And this is really happiness because we are as a target. We are, we have as, as a target for 2022 to basically have the number for 2022 to basically have the number of application with respect to the number of application our application map of 2018. our application map of 2018. >> So big, big step increase in applications. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah >> That's great. That's cool. And then the ecosystem of energy efficiency and aiming for lower carbon emissions that's a goal you guys are helping with. How is Red Hat helping in the ecosystem in your ecosystem? Do you see them going above and beyond? >> You know, the, for what regards to new business lines? I think that the container orchestration platform I think that the container orchestration platform so OpenShift would provide us with the right level so OpenShift would provide us with the right level of flexibility and agility to move of flexibility and agility to move at the speed of those businesses. That is quite different with respect to our classical ones and frequently needs a much higher speed of development. and frequently needs a much higher speed of development. >> Yeah. Awesome. Well, that's great. Great to see that success with Red Hat let's let's shift gears to the topic of the edge. >> Yeah We've been reporting on Silicon angle industrial edge for many years now. And we were calling out the security potential there as risky, obviously it's, it's it's industrial there's you also got generic edge which is consumer edge and everything in between the edge is just part of the network. And you think about this, this is important for you are what are you doing for you are what are you doing with the edge and IOT from a use case standpoint? What have you already done? And what are you planning to deploy soon? Take us through your, your edge IOT use case how it is today and how you see it tomorrow. >> So let's say that Snam has long OT history that basically started that Snam has long OT history that basically started at the very beginning of our SCADA system. So what we have right now is quite complex Brown So what we have right fields situation for what regards edges and gateways fields situation for what regards edges and gateways fields situation for what regards edges and gateways and technical component that resides on, on the field. and technical component that resides on, on the field. So you can, you, you, you must consider that the Italian network is for the modern that the Italian network is for the modern modern 34,000 kilometers and modern 34,000 kilometers and as many different plants, small, medium, and as many different plants, small, medium, and and large plants spread across the country. and large plants spread across the country. And what we are trying to do leveraging also Red Hat technologies among with Red Hat technologies among with with others is trying to get the benefit with others is trying to get the benefit of containers and microservice development. So the benefit coming from cloud native application and getting those to the edge. from cloud native application and getting those to the edge. So the usual problem So the usual problem with OT as historically been a standardization with OT as historically been a standardization so a very heterogeneous number of components Virginia's protocols of components Virginia's protocols in order for them to communicate with the charters and relatively low level of security. with the charters and relatively low level of security. This is, this was mainly due to the segregation principle This is, this was mainly due to the segregation principle physical segregation principle that used to physical segregation principle that used to dominate the OT field with IOT. Of course, as you were saying we are terrifically expanding the attack surface we are terrifically expanding the attack surface from the cybersecurity standpoint, but at the same time that is mainly why we are approaching that is mainly why we are approaching in a very structural way. Our technology stack implementation including security by design in all our architectural blueprints and implementation. And we strongly believe that pushing the capability And we strongly believe that pushing the capability of container orchestration and containerization to the edge and being able to orchestrate that from the cloud or from our data centers will provide us with a very high level of high-quality and flexibility and the capability to exploited best the geographical distribution of the data. to exploited best the geographical distribution of the data. You know, you were saying a center point will be You know, you were saying a center point will be was soaked around data, and it is correct, but it in our specific case, our data basically came from points in our specific case, our data basically came from points in our specific case, our data basically came from points as I was saying, spread it all across the country. So having different data, gravity points enabled So having different data, gravity points enabled by container rise and centrally orchestrated by container rise and centrally orchestrated by container rise and centrally orchestrated environments will enable us to get the best also environments will enable us to get the best also in terms of, from the cybersecurity perspective because what will be acquired on the centralized environment is only exclusively on the centralized environment is only exclusively what is needed at the centralized environment. what is needed at the centralized environment. All the rest on our target architecture will be entirely elaborated on the field, very close to where the data physically on the field, very close to where the data physically and this will be excludable exclusively enabled by by a containerized approach. >> That's awesome. Great, great. A use case there, Roberto, what's next A use case there, Roberto, what's next for your future plans and your technology journey? Obviously AI is going to be very important and data and leveraging that you've got the core cloud data center edge perspective. >> Yeah, of course. Yeah. What, what, what's next? >> What's your future? Let's say, let's say that what we currently implemented is Let's say, let's say that what we currently implemented is and in average cloud environment so we basically have two data center and one cloud tenant, our infrastructure due to, again and one cloud tenant, our infrastructure due to, again and one cloud tenant, our infrastructure due to, again the use of OpenShifts will be easily extensible the use of OpenShifts will be easily extensible the use of OpenShifts will be easily extensible to other potentially to other cloud providers. So we will move, we're evaluating the move to a multicloud So we will move, we're evaluating the move to a multicloud a hybrid multicloud environment. At the same time our main focus right now is to close our IOT foundation. our main focus right now is to close our IOT foundation. And within the IOT foundation I think the main focus right now is on gateways and edges. I think the main focus right now is on gateways and edges. As you were saying, these are quite complex components As you were saying, these are quite complex components and must be greatly evaluated, especially from the cybersecurity standpoint and last from the cybersecurity standpoint and last but not least the data we need to. but not least the data we need to we started our data platform journey and we currently are acquiring data from legacy systems and we currently are acquiring data from legacy systems different kinds of legacy system and SCADA system. What we would like to reach is a complete IOT What we would like to reach is a complete IOT What we would like to reach is a complete IOT acquisition system that will be directly connected to our components, acquiring data on the field. Right now we are in, let's say Right now we are in, let's say in the middle of this digital transformation and we are hemming to close our and we are hemming to close our our journey in the next couple of years. >> That's great, Roberto, great story. Love the conversation. First of all, I love your title Head of Architecture, Digital AI Services. I mean, that speaks to this modern error of, of, of cloud distributed computing. You hit all the hit, all the key things, right? It's an architectural system distributed system. It's a digital business. Now, even though there's physical assets offline, online coming together in a modern way and AI really speaks to the underlying data which is combination of many, many things, you know you're you get all the action there. >> Roberto: Yeah! >> How do you feel? What's your advice to other people in the same boat you're in? >> No, I, I think that, that the interesting part of what we do that the interesting part of what we do at least in, in my specific area, and this is what digital at least in, in my specific area, and this is what digital or sustained for is digital service design. This is something new that is quite uncommon within the utility sector. And it is basically a group of people that apart And it is basically a group of people that apart from being technologists focus a lot on the interaction from being technologists focus a lot on the interaction design of what we are or what we are trying to build design of what we are or what we are trying to build in terms of the technology stack. So these are people that basically try to make the very So these are people that basically try to make the very complex technology stack we talk about in our interview much more simple the, to the final user and think about the level of interaction, complexity about the level of interaction, complexity that all our user will have with our technology stack. Especially when we talk about IOT now, and you start to interact, not just with digital systems, but also with digital or physical systems. with digital or physical systems. So yes, we, we, we have a lot on our plate >> It reminds me of the late eighties, early nineties when open standards really hit the scene and then incubated and then accelerated was seeing that same dynamic happening now with cloud. And you're a pioneer and really appreciate you taking the time to come on The Cube and speak with me about this and share your story. And more importantly than Red Hat success there. 'cause it's Red Hat summit, a story here, Roberto. Thank you very much for sharing your insights and experiences. >> Thank you for your time, John. This has been a pleasure. >> Really appreciate it. Okay. That's Red Hat CUBE coverage here with theCUBE. I'm John furrier. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Voice over: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020 virtual, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Mittleman, and welcome back to theCUBE's Coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe for 2020. Get to talk to the participants in this great community and ecosystem where they are around the globe. And when you think back to the early days of containers, it was, containers, they're lightweight, they're small, going to obliterate virtualization is often the headline that we had. Of course, we know everything in IT tends to be additive. And here we are in 2020 and containers and virtual machines, living side by side and often we'll see the back and forth that happens when we talk about virtualization in containers. To talk about that topic specifically, happy to welcome to the program, first time guest, Steve Gordon. He's the director of product management at Red Hat. Steve, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks so much Stu, it's great to be here. >> All right, as I teed up of course, virtualization was a wave that swept through the data center. It is a major piece, not only of what's in the data center, but even if you look at the public Clouds, often it was virtualization underneath there. Certain companies like Google, of course, really drove a container adoption. And often you hear when people talk about, I built something CloudNative, that underlying piece of being containerized and then using an orchestration layer like Kubernetes is what they talk about. So maybe stop for a sec, Red Hat of course, heavily involved in virtualization and containers, how you see that landscape and what's the general conversation you have with customers as to how they make the choice and how the lines blur between those worlds? >> Yeah, so at Red Hat, I think we've been working on certainly the current iteration of the next specialization with KVM for around 12 years and myself large portion of that. I think, one thing that's always been constant is while from the outside-in, specialization looks like it's been a fairly stable marketplace. It's always changing, it's always evolving. And what we're seeing right now is as people are adopting containers and even constructs built on top of containers into their workflows, there is more interest and more desire around how can I combine these things, recognizing that still an enormous percentage of my workloads are out there running in virtual machines today, but I'm building new things around them that need to be able to interact with them and springboard off of that. So I think for the last couple of years, I'm sure you yourself have seen a number of different projects pop up and the opensource community around this intersection of containers and visualization and how can these technologies compliment each other. And certainly KubeVirt is one of the projects that we've started in this space, in reaction to both that general interests, but also the real customer problems that people have, as they try and meld these two worlds. >> So Steve, at Red Hat Summit earlier this year, there was a lot of talk around container native virtualization. If you could just explain what that means, how that might be different from just virtualization in general, and we'll go from there. >> Sure, so back in, I think early 2017, late 2016, we started playing around this idea. We'd already seen the momentum around Kubernetes and the result the way we architected OpenShift, three at a time around, Kubernetes has this strength as an orchestration platform, but also a shared provider of storage, networking, et cetera, resources. And really thinking about, when we look at virtualization and containers, some of these problems are very common regardless of what footprint the workload happens to fit into. So leveraging that strength of Kubernetes as an orchestration platform, we started looking at, what would it look like to orchestrate virtual machines on that same platform right next to our application containers? And the extension of that the KubeVirt project and what has ultimately become OpenShift virtualization is based around that core idea of how can I make a traditional virtual machine to a full operating system, interact with and look exactly like a Kubernetes native construct, that I can use from the same platform? I can manage it using the same constructs, I can interact with it using the same console, all of these kinds of ideas. And then on top of that, not just bring in workloads as they lie, but enable really powerful workforce with people who are building a new application in containers that still need some backend components, say a database that's sitting in a VM, or also trying to integrate those virtual machines into new constructs, whether it's something like a pipeline or a service mesh. We're hearing a lot of questions around those things these days where people don't want to just apply those things to brand new workloads, but figure out how do they apply those constructs to the broader majority of their fleet of workflows that exist today. >> All right, so I believe back at Red Hat Summit, OpenShift virtualization was in beta. Where's the product that solution sets till today? >> Right, so at this year's KubeCon, we're happy to announce that OpenShift virtualization is moving to general availability. So it will be a fully supported part of OpenShift. And what that means is, you, as a subscriber to OpenShift, the platform, get virtualization as just an additional capability of that platform that you can enable as an operator from the operator hub, which is really a powerful thing for admins to be able to do that. But also is just really powerful in terms of the user experience. Like once that operator is enabled on your cluster, the little tab shows up, that shows that you can now go and create a virtual machine. But you also still get all of the metrics and the shared networking and so on that goes with that cluster, that underlies it all. And you can again do some really powerful things in terms of combining those constructs for both virtual machines and containers. >> When you talk about that line between virtualization and containers, a big question is, what does this mean for developers? How is it different from what they were using before? How do they engage and interact with their infrastructure today? >> Sure, so I think the way a lot of this current wave of technology got started for people was whether it was with Kubernetes or Docker before that, people would go and grab, easiest way they could grab compute for capacity was go to their virtual machine firm, whether that was their local virtualization estate at their company, or whether that was taking a credit card to public Cloud, getting a virtual machine and spinning up a container platform on top of that. What we're now seeing is, as that's transitioning into people building their workloads, almost entirely around these container constructs, in some cases when they're starting from scratch, there is more interest in, how do I leverage that platform directly? How do I, as my application group have more control over that platform? And in some cases, depending on the use case, like if they have demand for GPUs, for example, or other high-performance devices, that question of whether the virtualization layer between my physical host and my container is adding that much value? But then still wanting to bring in the traditional workloads they have as well. So I think we've seen this gradual transition where there is a growing interest in reevaluating, how do we start with container based architectures? To, okay, how has we transitioned towards more production scenarios and the growth in production scenarios? What tweaks do we make to that architecture? Does it still make sense to run all of that on top of virtual machines? Or does it make more sense to almost flip that equation as my workload mix gradually starts changing? >> Yeah, two thoughts come to mind on that. Number one is, are there specific applications out there, or I think about traditional VMs, often that Windows environments that we have there, is that some of the use case to bring them over to containers? And then also, once I've gotten it into the container environment, what are the steps to move forward? Because I have to expect that there's going to be some refactoring, some modernization to take advantage of the innovation and pace of change, not just to take it, containerize it and leave it. >> Yeah, so certainly, there is an enormous amount of potential out there in terms of Windows workloads, and people are definitely trying to work out how do they leverage those workloads in the context of OpenShift and Kubernetes based environment. And Windows containers obviously, is one way to address that. And certainly, that is very powerful in and of itself, for bringing those workloads to OpenShift and Kubernetes, but does have some constraints in terms of needing to be on a relatively recent version of Windows server and so on for those workloads to run in that construct. So where OpenShift virtualization helps with that is we can actually take an existing virtual machine workload, bring that across, even if it's say Windows server 2012, run it on top of the OpenShift virtualization platform as a VM, And then if or when you start modernizing more of that application, you can start teasing that out into actual containers. And that's actually something, it is one of our very early demos at Red Hat Summit 2018, I think was how you would go about doing that, and primarily we did that because it is a very powerful thing for customers to see how they can bring those, all the applications into this mix. And the other aspect of that I'll mention is one of our financial services customers who we've been working with, basically since that demo, they saw it from a hallway at Red Hat Summit and came and said, "Hey, we want to talk to you guys about that." One of the primary workload, is a Windows 10 style environment, that they happened to be bringing in as well. And that's more in that construct of treating OpenShift almost as a pool of compute, which you can use for many different workload types with the Windows 10 being just one aspect of that. And the other thing I'll say in terms of the second part of the question, what do I need to do in terms of refactoring? So we are very conscious of the fact that, if this is to provide value, you have to be able to bring in existing virtual machines with as minimal change as possible. So we do have a migration solution set, that we've had for a number of years, for bringing our virtual machines to Linux specialization stacks. We're expanding that to include OpenShift virtualization as a target, to help you bring in those existing virtual machine images. Where things do change a little bit is in terms of the operational approaches. Obviously, admin console now is OpenShift for those virtual machines, that does right now present a change. But we think it is a very powerful opportunity in terms of, as people get more and more production workloads into containers, for example, it's going to become a lot more appealing to have a backup solution, for example, that can cater to both the virtual machine workloads as well as any stateful container workloads you may have, which do exist in increasing numbers. >> Well, I'm glad you brought up a stateful discussion because as an industry, we've spent a long time making sure that virtual machines, have storage and have networking that is reliable in performance and the like. What should customers be thinking about and operators when they move to containers? Are there things that are different you manage bringing into, this brings them into the OpenShift management plane. So what else should I be thinking about? What do I need to do differently when I've embraced this? >> Yeah, so I think in terms of the things that virtual machine expects, the two big ones that come to mind to me are networking and storage. The compute piece is still there obviously, but I think is a little less complicated to solve just because the OpenShift and broader Kubernetes community have done such a great job of addressing that piece, and that's really what attracted us to it in the first place. But on the networking side, certainly the expectations of a traditional virtual machine are a little bit different to the networking model of Kubernetes by default. But again, we've seen a lot of growth in container based applications, particularly in the context of CloudNative network functions that have been pushing the boundaries of Kubernetes networking as well. That's resulted in projects like Motus, which allow us to give a virtual machine related to networking interface that it expects, but also give it the option of using the pod networking natively, for some of those more powerful constructs that are native to Kubernetes. So that's one of those areas where you've got a mix of options, depending on how far you want to go from a modernization perspective versus do I just want to bring this workload in and run it as it is. And my modernization is more built around it, in terms of the other container based things. Then similarly in storage, it's an area where obviously at Red Hat, we've been working close with the OpenShift container storage team, but we also work with a number of ecosystem partners on, not just how do we certify their storage plugins and make sure they work well both for containers and virtual machines, but also how do we push forward upstream efforts, around things like the container storage interface specification, to allow for these more powerful capabilities like snapshots cloning and so on which we need for virtual machines, but are also very valuable for container based workloads as well. >> Steve, you've mentioned some of the reasons why customers were moving towards this environment. Now that you're GA, what learnings did you have during beta? Are there any other customer stories you could share that you've learned along this journey? >> Yeah, so I think one of the things I'll say is that, there's no feedback like direct product in the hands of customer feedback. And it's really been interesting to see the different ways that people have applied it, not necessarily having set out to apply it, but having gotten partway through their journey and realized, hey, I need this capability. You have something that looks pretty handy and then having success with it. So in particular, in the telecommunications vertical, we've been working closely with a number of providers around the 5G rollouts and the 5G core in particular, where they've been focused on CloudNative network functions. And really what I mean by that is the wave of technology and the push they're making around 5G is to take what they started with network function virtualization a step further, and build that next generation network around CloudNative technologies, including Kubernetes and OpenShift. And as I've been doing that, I have been finding that some of the vendors are more or less prepared for that transition. And that's where, while they've been able to leverage the power of containers for those applications that are ready, they're also able to leverage OpenShift virtualization as a transitionary step, as they modernize the pieces that are taking a little bit longer. And that's where we've been able to run some applications in terms of the load balancer, in terms of a carrier grade database on top of OpenShift virtualization, which we probably wouldn't have set out to do this early in terms of our plan, but we're really able to react quickly to that customer demand and help them get that across the line. And I think that's a really powerful example where the end state may not necessarily be to run everything as a virtual machine forever, but that was still able to leverage this technology as a powerful tool in the context of our broadened up optimization effort. >> All right, well, Steve, thank you so much for giving us the updates. Congratulations on going GA for this solution. Definitely look forward to hearing more from the customers as they come. >> All right, thanks so much Stu. I appreciate it. >> All right, stay tuned for more coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon EU 2020, the virtual edition. I'm Stu Stu Mittleman. And thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, it's theCUBE, covering IBM Think, brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2020. It is the digital experience online so rather than all gathering together in San Francisco we're getting to talk to everybody where they are and we're happy to bring back one of our CUBE alums, it's actually been a little while since we've had them on the program. Willie Tejada, who is the general manager and Chief Developer Advocate with IBM. Willie, so great to see you, thanks for joining us. >> Hey Stu, thanks for having me, it's good to be back, it's been too long. >> So, first thing, obviously we're all together while we're apart, because of the global pandemic, developers, I've had so many interviews I've done over the years talking about dispersed development, around the clock development, I had a great interview with a head of remote work in the developer community at the beginning of the year before everything happened, so, how's the community doing overall and how are you seeing them react to what's happening? >> In the developer community, I think one of the interesting parts is one, developers feel oftentimes that they can actually make a difference. Two, their work oftentimes happens remotely. And so, one of the things that we've seen is a lot of the interaction that we have when we're doing our developer advocacy work has just converted to digital. And there's some interesting dynamics that come about, just even in that, where if you were doing something like a meetup in New York that was attracting something like 50 people, to maybe 100, maybe the venue was limiting the number of people that you would actually have there if you had a popular topic or speaker. We've had meetups basically be as large as 500 plus people when we went to digital. So definitely some different dynamics as we actually talk about this new normal that we're in, and everybody utilizing digital vehicles to reach the people that they want to talk to. >> All right. So I know last time we talked with you a big topic we talked about was Call for Code, and something that IBM has done different initiatives there, and you've got a very relevant one so bring our audience up to speed, this year's Call for Code, what that would involve. >> Yeah Stu, thanks very much. The Call for Code initiative inside of IBM is now in its third year. We did it in 2018, the concept was fairly simple, developers always love to solve problems and we said what if we challenge the 24 million developers to come and take a crack at society's most pressing issues? And in the first two years we focused on natural disasters, all you had to do was take a look at the coverage prior to the COVID-19 pandemic and you had wildfires in Australia and in Northern California where my home actually is based, and you had tsunamis and hurricanes and floodings. And so the ability for us to actually bring the developer community to bear on some of society's most pressing issues was really kind of the concept upfront, and IBM would help by bringing subject matter experts together, making available tools, because we're thinking let's solve the problem exactly how we solve it when we apply business. You get an expert on supply chain, you get a user of supply chain, you bring them together, developer builds these things. Well, not all the time can you get an expert in disaster, a first responder, so we actually created a lot of that fusion from there. Then, over the course of the first two years, we've had over 210,000 developers participate over across 168 nations with over 8,000 applications submitted. So, wildly successful. Now this year, Stu to your point, we had something that we could really bear down on very heavily. We announced that we were taking on climate change kind of laddering up natural disasters was let's look at the root, climate change, and then the COVID pandemic came about. We said let's tilt people towards that and it's been a tremendous outcoming for it. We've asked the developers to focus on three areas: crisis communications, you may have been one of those folks that's on a conference call or emails that haven't been responded to, on wait times forever, so those communications systems how do we fortify them get them to scale? The second area is remote learning, really look at where all the students are actually these days and what they're doing there, not just teaching but basically how do you give them entertainment, how do you actually provide them some level of social interaction. And the third area with the COVID focus is community collaboration. We really want to try to make sure people's spirits are up and that really does require everybody leaning in, and again you look at the news and tremendous examples of community collaboration and where technology can help scale or broaden that, that's really where Call for Code actually comes into play. >> Yeah, maybe it would be helpful, tell us a little bit about some of the previous winners, what have been some of the outcomes, more than just rallying the community, what resources is IBM putting into this? >> So one of the things that makes it different is rather than it just being a regular hack, this is really a processing side of IBM that we've developed over the course of this last three years. Where the challenge is one piece, the Call for Code challenge, we also developed and rolled out and committed another 25 million, with Call for Code we committed 30 million over that five years and in the following year we recognized the need to see the solutions actually get deployed. And so we committed another $25 million for the fortification, testing, scaling and deployment. So when you win a Call for Code Global Challenge, you also get IBM's support around deployment, fortification, some counseling and relation basically from development, to architecture, to even the business side of it. In our first year, we had a team called Project Owl actually come out and win, and one of the first things that happens especially in hurricanes or these natural disasters, communication grids go down. So they developed a solution that could quickly establish an ad hoc communication grid, and anybody that had a typical cell phone could connect up to that Wi-Fi grid or that grid very similar to the way they actually connect into a Starbucks Wi-Fi system. And it would allow both the first responders to understand where folks were at, and then establish communications. So that was in the first year. The second year was a team called Prometeo, and in October we selected them as the Global Challenge winner, and they were a solution that was built by a firefighter, a nurse and a developer with this concept roughly of how do they monitor essentially a firefighter's situation when they're actually in the heat of battle to best allocate the resources to the people who need them most. Understanding a little bit about their environment, understanding a little bit about the health that's actually happening with the firefighter, and again it's one of those scenarios where you couldn't just build it from the firefighter's side, you couldn't just build it from the nurse's side, and a developer would have a difficult time building it just by themselves. So bringing those people together, a nurse, a firefighter and a developer, and creating a system like this is really really what we're aspiring to do. Now, they won in October, and in February, they're in a field deployment actually doing real testing in the field in some of the fields at Catalonia, Spain. So, we've seen it first-hand exactly what happens when they win, the Project Owl team actually did some hurricane deployment testing in Puerto Rico, that of course IBM helped fortify and build connections between the Puerto Rico government so that we're really seeing essentially the challenge winner see this type of deployment. >> Willie, I love it, it's even better than a punch line I could do, what do you get when you combine a firefighter, a nurse and a developer? The answer is you can positively impact the world so phenomenal there. >> Absolutely. >> I'm curious, where does open source play into this activity? We were just covering Red Hat Summit last week, of course, lots of open source, lots of community engagement in hearing how they are helping communities engage and of course open source has been a big rallying point, everything from 3D printing to other projects in the community. So where does open source fit into this initiative? >> 100%. The amazing part about activating developers these days is just the broad availability of the technologies. And it's certainly stimulated by the community aspect of open source, this idea that they democratize access to technology, and it's really community-centric, and folks can start building very quickly on open source technologies that are material. So number one, all the things that is part of Call for Code and what we actually deployed are based on open source technologies. Now, again one of the differences is how do we actually make those winners and those technology sets become real? And becoming real requires this idea of how do you actually build durable sustainable solutions. So each five of the winners every year have the opportunity essentially to go through the Linux Foundation and have their solutions established as a project with the idea of roughly that people can download it and fork it, people can actually fortify it, but it's available to the whole globe, everybody in the world, to help build upon and fortify and continue to innovate on. So open source is right at the root of it, not just from the technology side, but from the ecosystem and community side that open source was for. And so we've seen as an example the formal establishment of Project Owl's software being open sourced by the Linux Foundation. And it's been fantastic to see both the participation actually there and see how people are basically deriving it and using it exactly what we intended to see in the vision of Call for Code, and Code and Response. >> Well, that's phenomenal. We're huge fans of the community activity, of course open source is a great driver of everything you were talking about. So I'm curious, one of the things we're all looking at is where people are spending their time, how this global pandemic is impacting what people are doing. There's plenty of memes out there on social media, it doesn't mean that you all of a sudden are going to learn a new language, or learn to play an instrument because you have lots of time at home, but I'm curious from what you've seen so far, compared to previous years, how's the engagement? What's the numbers? What can you share? Is there a significant difference or change from previous years? >> Yeah, there's so much good will, I would say, that's been brought about around the world in what we're seeing around the COVID-19 pandemic. That the way I would describe it is the rate of submissions and interest that we've seen is 3x above what we've seen in the prior years. Now keep in mind, we're not even actually at the area where we see the most. So keep in mind, right now we tried to accelerate the time to highlight some of these solutions. So April 27th will be the first deadline for COVID-19 challenge, and we'll highlight some of the solutions on May 5th. Now, when we think about it basically from that standpoint we typically actually see people waiting until that submission timeframe. And so when you think of it from that standpoint you really oftentimes see this acceleration, right? At that submission deadline. But we're already seeing 3x what we've seen in the past in terms of participation just because of the amount of good will that's actually out there, and what people are trying to do in solving these problems. And developers, they're problem solvers overall, and putting out those three areas, community crisis communications, remote learning, and community collaboration, they'll see examples of what they see on the news and think they can actually do something better, and then express that in software. >> That's excellent. So, Willie, one of the things, we've been talking to leaders across the industry and one of things we don't know is how much of what we are going through is temporary, and how much will actually be long term. I'm curious if there's any patterns you're seeing out there, discussions you're having with developers, you talk about remote work, you talk about communication. Are there anything that you've seen so far that you think that this will fundamentally just alter the way things might've been in the past going forward? >> Developers are always actually looking for this idea of how they actually sharpen their skills, their craft, new languages that they actually know, new platforms, whatever it actually might be. And I think in the past there was probably, even from our perspective, this balance of face-to-face versus digital, and a mix of both, but I think what we'll find going forward is a more robust mix of that. Because you can't deny the power of reach that actually happens when you actually move something digital. And then I would say that think about how you at theCUBE have refined your studios in dealing with an interview like mine, it gets better and better, you refine it. How you do an online workshop and how you do a workshop on a steel service mesh, you get better and better about how you engage from real time, hands-on keyboard experience in what information, what chat, what community pieces do you put on the screen to stimulate these pieces, I think in general the industry and our company and our teams have gotten better even in this short amount of time. I think those things will be long-lasting. I think we're all humans, so I think they still want the physical face-to-face and community interaction and camaraderie that comes from being in that physical energy, but I do think it'll be complemented by the things that we refined through the digital delivery that's been refined during this situation. >> All right, so Willie, final thing of course, this week, the winners are all being announced, how about people that are watching this and say this sounds phenomenal, how do I learn more, if I didn't get to participate in some of the initial pieces what should I be looking for? And how can I contribute and participate even after Think? >> Well, number one keep in mind that the challenge for the year will still actually go all the way to October, and submissions for that whole Challenger Watch will go to February first. So that's number one. But number two, going to developer.ibm.com/callforcode you'll find all the resources, we have these things called starter kits that help developers actually get up and going very quickly, finding out more information about both the competition structure, and really how you become part of the movement, go there basically and answer the call. >> Awesome. Love it, Willie, thanks so much, pleasure to catch up with you and definitely looking forward to seeing all the outcome that the community is putting forth to focus on this really important challenge. >> Hey Stu, thanks for having me, I really appreciate it. >> All right, be sure to check out thecube.net for all the coverage from IBM Think, all the backlog we had to see Willie a couple years ago when he was on the program, and check out where we will be later in the year. I'm Stu Miniman, and as always, thanks for watching. (gentle music)

we've made just tremendous progress over the last several years with Microsoft you know started back in 2015 where we you know cross certified hypervisors and that's kind of a basic you know let's work together over the last couple years it's truly blossomed into a really good partnership where you know I think they've and we both gotten over this you know Linux vs. Windows thing and you know I said we've gotten over I think we both recognized you know we need to serve our customers in the best possible way and that clearly means is two of the largest infrastructure software providers working closely together and what's been interesting as we've gone forward we find more and more common ground about how we can better serve our customers whether that's you know what might sound mundane that's a big deal sequel server on realm and setting benchmarks around that or dotnet running on our platforms now all the way to really being able to deliver a hybrid cloud with a seamless experience with openshift from you know on premise - - to Azure and I mean having to H Bank on States twenty five thousand containers running in production moving back and forth - sure and I think it's more building on what I talked to you about a year ago if I remember last May May of 2018 in San Francisco so I was exposing very heavily look the world's going to move towards containers the world is already embraced Linux this is the time to have a new architecture that enables hybrid much along the lines that gem and all of the clients as well as Ginni and Sasha we're talking about on stage yesterday so you put all that together and you say that is what we mentioned last year and we were clear that is where the world is going to go nice step forward a few months from there into October of 2018 and on 29th of October we announced that IBM intends to acquire Red Hat so then you say wow we put actually our money where amount was we were talking about the strategy we were talking about Linux containers openshift the partnership we announced last May was IBM software products together with OpenShift that is we already believed in that but now this allows us coming together it's it's more like a marriage then sort of loose partners passing each other in the middle of the night we are so excited and you know having put in all the time part of this is representing all the work the team has done and the communities have done when you think about all the work that goes into a Linux distribution it is everybody it's the community's it's the partners so we released the Red Hat Enterprise Linux eight beta in November mid-november we've had 40,000 downloads of that beta since November people who have provided feedback and comments suggestions all of that fed into what we've released today as the Red Hat Enterprise Linux eight general availability so it's a big day and part of it is we're just so proud of how we've done it and what we've done and we've really redefined what are not the value of an operating system with Red Hat Enterprise limits eight tech transformation started about ten years ago bean CI over the company about ten years and frankly the first five years were just fixing the basics so getting in place what we'd call world-class systems doing a bunch of stuff on resilience and security and all of that kind of stuff and the other thing and this is the dramatic change you know ten years ago when I joined the company we were 85% outsource to managed service vendors so I had technology people that basically were signing contractors and managing service agreements if we didn't have technology DNA and so you know over those five years and the full ten years actually we've been to not about just in sourcing and rebuilding our technical muscle if you like so now we're we've gone from 85% outsource to 90% in sourced so we run build and manage our own we're at word now a technology company yeah and and five years ago we had a real big shift and you know we were we were closest to what was going on in China and so probably saw this before many many of the other banks saw this around the world of what Alibaba was doing with ant financial and $0.10 and this whole just just complete disruption of how customers interact with the banking industry so we got an early lead on this digital transformation and really for the last five six years would be doubling down on building a pure digital offering and we see ourselves as a technology company providing banking services not as a bank with some technology department in the backend open source is the innovation model going forward period end of story full stop and I think as I said in my keynote yesterday you know leading up to the the biggest acquisition ever for a software company not an open source software coming a software company that happened to be an open source software company I don't think there's any doubt that that open source has one here here today it and it's because of the pace of innovation yeah our goal is to make sure we're supporting those upstream communities so all of all of Red Hat software is open source and we work with a whole community of individuals and companies and the upstream open source software and we want to make sure that we're not just contributing features that we want but that we're a good player or that we're helping to make sure those communities are healthy and so for a number of the projects that were involved in we actually assigned a full-time Community Manager a community lead to help make sure that project is healthy so we have someone on everything from Saif and Gloucester to fedora to kubernetes I'm just making sure the community does well yeah we do a little bit of both and so a lot of it is responding to the community and that's one of the areas that Red Hat is really excelled as taking what's popular what's working upstream and helping moving along make it a stable product or stable solution that developers can use but we also have a certain agenda or certain platforms that we want to present so we start from like various runtimes to actually contain our platforms and so we want to have to kind of drive some of that initiatives on our own to help drive fill that need because we hear it from customers a lot it's like things are doing are great but like there's all these projects that need to come together sort as a product or unified experience and so we spend a lot of our time trying to bring those things together as a way to help developers do those different tasks and also focus across like not just the Java runtimes which we hit a lot of Java so you might have baked security in right I mean we have a secure supply chain and you talk about difficult things for la right every package that we that comes in that is we totally refresh everything from upstream but when they come in we have to inspect all the crypto we have to run them through security scans vulnerability scanners we've got three different vulnerability scanners that we're using we run them through penetration testing so there's a huge amount of work that just comes just to inherit all that from the upstream but in addition to that we've put a lot of work into making sure that well our crypto has to be Fitz certified right which means you've got to meet standards we also have work that's gone in to make sure that you can enable a security policy consistently across the system so that no application that you load on can violate your security policy we've got enough tables in their new firewalling Network bound disk encryption that actually it kind of ties in with a lot of the system management work that we've done so a thing that I think differentiates rl8 is we put a lot of focus on making it easy to use on day one and easy to manage day two well we're not getting there were there what that allows us to do is to take the reference designs that we have and the testing that we've we've previously validated with Intel and Red Hat and be able to snap pieces together so it's just a matter of what's different and unique for the client in the client situation and their growth pattern what's great about trueskill is that in this model is that we can predictably analyze or consumption forward based on the business growth so for example if you're using open shipped and you start with a small cluster for say one or two lines of business as they adopt DevOps methodologies going from either waterfall or agile we can we can predictably analyze the consumption forward that they're going to need so they can plan years in advance as they progress and as such the other snap-ins say uh storage that they're going to need for data and motion or data at rest so it's it's actually smarter and what that ends up doing is obviously saving the money but it saves some time you know typical model is going back to IT and saying we need these servers we need the storage and the software and bolt it all together and the IT guys are you know hair on fire running around already so so they can you know as long as IT approves it they can sort of bypass that that big heavy lift we're trying to do is create role models for women and girls who would like to participate in technology but perhaps are not sure that that's the way that they can go and they don't see people that are like them so they're less tendency to join into this type of communities so with the community award winner we're looking at a professional who's been contributing to open source for a period of time and with our academic winner we're looking to spur more people who are in university to think about it and of course the big idea is you'll all be looking at these women as people that will inspire you to potentially do more things with open source and more things with technology we've been hearing for many many years that we definitely need to have more gender diversity in tech in general in an open source and Red Hat is kind of uniquely situated to focus on the open source community and so with our role is the open source leader we really feel like we need to make that commitment and to be able to foster that right so so Sierra's a supercomputer and what's unique about these systems is that we're solving there's lots of systems that network together maybe are bigger a number of servers than us but we're doing scientific simulation and that kind of computing requires a level of parallelism and it's very tightly coupled so all the servers are running a piece of the problem they all have to sort of operate together if any one of them is running slow it makes the whole thing go slow so it's really this tightly coupled nature of supercomputers that make things really challenging you know we talked about performance if if one server is just running slow for some reason you know everything else is going to be affected by that so we really do care about performance and we really do care about just every little piece of the hardware you know performing as it should so we thought okay let's take all of these best practices that we have and build more or less a methodology around it how to make this actually works like how to do this we really broke it down into like individual sprints do dissin sprint one the distance sprint do to really have the results within three months six months 12 months whatever the places that you want to run on and then we realize talking to customers this by itself isn't still enough so that's why we started to open up this to an entire ecosystem so we brought ecosystem partners along like working closely with red a lot of other companies but also system integrators who can help us we speak up projects because we as a company are software companies we're not a services or consulting company and we do support customers and some of those engagement but if you think of like a really fortune 500 company that's a multi-year project it will keep hundreds of busy people busy so to recap like built-in methodology we built the ecosystem to deliver on that promise at scale and now the last step was we as we were doing this we also built like a reference architecture for it and was just in an internal IDE so how do we like structure this bill that reference architecture and then realize okay I think it's kind of like super helpful for customers so that this way we then decided to open source this reference architecture is fabric as well to like the entire software community so they can also use it so technically these three pieces it's the methodology it's the ecosystem and it's like the reference architecture that you can work with to help you achieve you [Music]

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's theCUBE, covering Red Hat Summit 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> And welcome back to Boston. Here on theCUBE we continue our coverage of Red Hat Summit 2019. We just had Jim Whitehurst on, President and CEO, along with Stu Miniman, I'm John Walls. And now, we turn to the IBM side of the equation. Arvind Krishna is with us, the SVP of Cloud and Cognitive Software at IBM. Arvind, good to see you this morning. >> My pleasure to be here, what a great show. >> Yeah, absolutely, it has been. I was telling Jim he couldn't have a better week, right? Monday had good news, Tuesday great kick off, today again following through great key notes. We were talking briefly, a year ago you were with us on theCUBE and talking about IBM and its forward plans, so on and so forth. What a difference a year makes, right? (laughs) >> We couldn't predict that you'd be in the position that you are in now, so just if you can summarize the last year and maybe the last six months for you. >> Sure, and I think it's more building on what I talked to you about a year ago, I remember last May, May of 2018, in San Francisco. So I was exposing very heavily, look the world's going to move towards containers, the world has already embraced Linux, this is the time to have a new architecture that enables hybrid, much along the lines that Jim and all of the clients as well as Ginni and Satya were talking about on stage yesterday. So you put all that together and you say that is what we mentioned last year and we were clear, that is where the world is gonna go. Now you step forward a few months from there into October of 2018 and on the 29th October we announced that IBM intends to acquire Red Hat, so then you say wow, we put actually our money where our mouth was. We were talking about the strategy, we were talking about Linux containers, OpenShift, the partnership we announced last May was IBM software products together with OpenShift. We already believed in that. But now this allows us coming together, it's more like a marriage than sort of loose partners passing each other in the middle of the night. >> Right. >> And that then goes forward, you mention the news on Monday so for our viewers that don't know it, that's the news that the United States Department of Justice approved merger with no conditions. So now we've got to wait on a few other jurisdictions and then hopefully we can get together really soon. >> John: Right, right. >> So, I think back to looking at IBM over my career. I think the first time I heard the word coopetition it was related to IBM because IBM, big ego system, lots of innovation over its long history but as we know the bigger you get, the more chance that your partners are also going to overlap with you. Seeing Ginni up on stage and a little bit later seeing Satya up on stage is really interesting. You look at the public, multicloud environment, everybody doesn't need to work together, you talk to your customers, and I'm sure you find today it's not the future is hybrid and multicloud, that's where they are today even if they're trying to get their arms around all of it. So I'd love to hear your, with the mega trend of Cloud, what you're seeing that competitive but partnering dynamic. >> Look, I want to step back to just give it a little bit of context. So when you talk about companies, let's go back to the beginning of computing, of PC. The PC came from IBM operating system, DOS came from Microsoft. Then you had Windows setting up the IBM PC. So that's coopetition or is that pure partnership? Right, I mean you can take your pick of those words. Our value has always been that we, IBM, come to clients and we try to service problems that actually help them in their business outcomes. Then whoever they have inside their IT shops, that they depend upon, has to be a part of that answer. You cannot say oh, so and so is bad, they're out. So it always had to be coopetition from the lengths that we came to with our clients. We always build originally computers, other people's software are on those computers, other people provided services around it. As we went into certain software space, ISVs and so on came together. So now that you come to the world of Cloud, we hold a very fundamental belief and I think we heard a number of the clients talk about this. They are going to be on multiple public Clouds. If they are going to be on multiple public Clouds, they are also going to have traditional IT and they are also going to have private Clouds. That's the world to live in if I look at it from the viewpoint of that infrastructure. To now come to your direct question, so if that's the world they're going to live in hopefully one of those public Clouds is ours but the others are from other people. The private Cloud, we believe the standard for that should be OpenShift and should be containers. So as we go down that path, then you say if you want to take that environment and also run it on the other publics. That's good for the client, that's good for the publics, that's good for us. It's really a win, win, win. And so I think the ability to go do this and to make that play out, it really goes back to my thesis from more than a year ago where we talk about this is a new set of standards and a new set of technical protocols emerging. >> I want you to take us inside the conversations you're having with CIOs when you talk about Cloud because when Cloud first came out, it was well, the sins of IT is this heterogeneous mess and it's complex and expensive. Cloud's going to be simple, homogeneous and cheap. I look at Cloud of 2019 and I don't think I would use any of those adjectives to define what most people have for Cloud. Where are they today? Where do we need to go as an industry? >> Glass house computing, all centralized, all homogeneous, not all at heterogeneous. Oops, 15 flavors of Unix, all different, none of them really talk to each other. Oops let's go to desktop computing, we begin with a pure architecture, maybe Novell which doesn't exist, maybe it does, I don't even know. Oops, back to this complete sprawl of client server. Okay let's go to Cloud back to centralized glass house. >> You're making me dizzy. >> Oops, let's go to-- (laughing) >> Let's go to lots of public, lots of SaaS, lots of private, back to this thing. So, in each of these a different answer came on how to unite them. I think when we look at that Unix and client server sprawl, I think TCP/IP and the internet came together so that you could have all these islands talk to each other and be able to communicate. All right, great, we've got 20 years of victory on that. Now you're getting these things, how do you begin to workload across because that becomes the next level of values. Not enough to communicate. Can I really take a workload? A workload is not just a VM or just one container, it's a collection of these things integrated together in a pretty tight and complex way. And can we take it from one place and move it to the other? Because that goes to the write once, run anywhere mantra which by the way also we come to about every 20 years. I think that's the magic of this moment and if we succeed in making that happen, which I have complete conviction we will, especially together, then I think we give a huge value back and we give freedom to every CTO and every CIO. >> You paint this really interesting whoops picture, I love that, it's really a back and forth, right, we're swinging and almost there's a cyclical nature to this is what you're I think implying. What's to say in your mind that this isn't just another whoops as opposed to this being a permanent shift in the paradigm? >> I think it's, the reason I think that it's going to be cyclical is we tend to, you know whether you go to construction and real estate, you talk about capacity and factories. You see an opportunity and people tend to go one way. The only way to correct culture if you're sitting in one place is to sort of over-correct the other way, now you're over-corrected. Now you have to come back. And always when you over-correct one way, then suddenly all those other benefits you've lost, so then you've got to come back to get those benefits. After about 10 years, probably, you can debate 10 or 15, you're done. You've exploited all those benefits, now you need to go get those benefits. Because the technologies have changed, it's not just that you're going back to what was. We're going very conceptually from centralized to distributed, to centralized to distributed. And by the way, another one that's getting out from pure centralized is also Edge. Edge in effect is another distributed, so you put those together and you say I went there, but then I lost all this stuff, now I need to get back to that stuff. If you've got too much there, you'll say, no, no, no, I need to get some of this back. So it's going to go that way I think for every, if you look at it, the big arcs are back, the pendulum, what do you call it, the pendulum swing, is I think about 20 years it looks like, right? 1960, centralized, 1980, PC, 2000, you could say was the peak of the internet. Hey, 2020, we're in Cloud. So looks like about 20 years, looks like. >> All right, so, I like what you were saying when you talk about that multicloud environment, the application is really central there. IBM, of course, has a strong history, not just in middleware but in applications. What do you think will differentiate this kind of next wave of multicloud, how will the leaders emerge? >> Right, so if you look at it today, you run infrastructure. I think OpenShift has done a great job of how you help run their infrastructure. The value in our eyes in putting the services on top, both coming from open source as well as other companies that are running like an integrated package. This is all about taking the cost out of how do you deploy and develop. And if we can take the cost out of that, you're not talking about that five to 10 X as we heard a couple of the clients up on stage yesterday with Jim talk about. If we give that to everybody, you can sort of say that 70% which goes into managing your current and only 30% on innovation. Can you shift that paradigm completely? That's the big business outcome that you get. As you begin to deliver these towers of function on top of the base. You need to start at base, without one base, you don't know how to say, I can't deal with these towers of function on thirty different things underneath. That engineering answer is a terrible one. >> In terms of the infrastructure market, things keep changing, right? Consolidating, EMC doing what they're, you know what happened there. How do you see your play in that market? First off, how do you see infrastructure evolving? And then how do you see your play in that going forward? >> Infrastructure has always been big, in the end all the stuff you talk about has to run on infrastructure. I'd say the consumption model of how you get infrastructure is changing. So it used to be that many years ago, people bought all their own infrastructures. They bought boxes, they put in boxes, they did all the integration. And what came from the vendor was just a box. Then you went to, all right you can get it as a managed service or you can get it in Cloud which is also a pay by the drink but you can now turn it up and down also. So it's not a either or, people want all of these models. And so our role in infrastructure, certain things we will provide. When it comes to running really high mission critical workloads, think mainframe, think big Unix, think storage, of that ilk; we'll keep providing that. We believe there's a lot of value in that. We see the value, our clients appreciate that value. That workload turns up, but it's the mission critical part of the workload. Then in turn we also provide the more commodity infrastructure but as a service. We supply a large amount of it to our clients. It comes sometimes wrapped in a managed service, it sometimes comes wrapped as a Cloud. And we will also consume infrastructure from other Cloud providers because if people are providing base computer, network and storage, there is no reason to presume that our capabilities wouldn't run on top. If I go back to just February, we announced that Watson will now run. We said we used the moniker Watson Anywhere to make the assertion that we will run Watson anywhere that we can run the correct containerized infrastructure. >> So, Arvind, what's the single most pressing issue that you hear from organizations with respect to their technology strategy and how's IBM helping there? >> I think modernizing applications is the biggest one. So people have, typically a large enterprise will have anywhere from 3,000 to 15,000 applications. That's what runs the enterprise. We talk about everyone's becoming a software company, right, I mean that was one of the quotes and everybody is becoming a tech company that was I think what one of the clients said, hey, we think you're a bank, you're actually a tech company. What that says is that you're capturing the essence of all the business processes. You're capturing the essence of the experiences. The essence of what regulators need, the essence of how you maintain customer and customer of our clients, trust, back to them. It's maintained through this collection of applications. Now if you say I want to go change, I want to become even more client centric, I want to insert AI into the middle of my business process, I want to become more digital. All of that is modernizing applications. The big pinpoint they all have is how do I modernize them? What becomes that fabric in which I modernize? How do I know I'm not locked into yet another spaghetti mess if I go down this path? Because we've seen that movie also. So they're interested in, hey, I want to be clean at the end of this. I want freedom to be able to move it. And that is why I'm so passionate about, the fabric is based on open source, the fabric's got to be based on open standards. If you go there, there is no lock-in, and it's not a spaghetti mess, it is actually clean. Much cleaner than any other option that we can dream of is going to be. And so if we go down this path, now you can open yourself up to a much faster velocity of how you deliver innovation and value back to the business. >> Okay, so, I'd agree first of all when you talk about modernization, the applications that they have, that's the long pole in the tent. We understand compared to all the other digitization, modernization, this is the toughest challenge here. I'm a little surprised though that I didn't hear the word data because they don't necessarily articulate it but the biggest opportunity that they have has to be tied to data. >> Well to me, when I use the word application here, and you heard me use the word AI, can I insert AI in the context of an application? Now, why is it not being done today? To get the value out of AI, the data that powers the AI is stuck in all the silos, all over the place. So you've got to have, as you do this modernization, it's imperative to put the correct data architecture so that now you can do the governance, so that you can choose to unlock the appropriate parts of the data. It's really important to say the appropriate parts because neither do you want data sort of free floating around the globe, because that is the value of a company at the end of the day. And so that unlocking of that value is a huge part of this. So you're absolutely right to ask me to express it more strongly when I use the word application, I'm inclusive of not just runtime but always of the data that powers that application. >> Arvind, it was again a year ago that we were talking to you out in San Francisco and you made some rather strong thematic predictions that turned out well. I'm not going to put you on the spot here, but I can't wait to see next year. And see how this turns out. >> I can't let him go before, we had the CIO of Delta who we had on our program. >> Oh, right, right. >> In the key note, made a question about licensing, of course Jim Whitehurst said we don't have licensing but what's your answer? >> I'm willing to offer a deal to Samant. So I think that both IBM and Red Hat do a fair amount of air travel. We'll give him a common license if he can just include Red Hat for whatever IBM pays, just include all the Red Hat travel that is needed on Delta. (laughing) You know just so that the business models become clear and we can go have a robust discussion. >> Out of Raleigh that's a good deal. >> For us. >> That's what I'm saying. That is a good deal. All right, the ball is in your court, or on your runway. Whatever the case may be. Arvind, thanks for being with us. >> My pleasure. >> We appreciate it. And we'll let you know if we hear back from Rahul on that good deal. TheCUBE continues live from Boston right after this. (upbeat music)

>> Live, from Las Vegas, it's the Cube, covering AWS re:Invent 2018, brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back everyone, live here in Las Vegas for AWS re:Invent 2018, all the action is happening for Amazon Web Services. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, Dave six years covering Amazon, great opportunity, a lot of news, Red Hat is a big part of it, Mike Ferris is here. Vice President, Technical Business Development for Red Hat, welcome back, good to see you. >> Likewise. >> A lot's going with you guys since our Red Hat Summit days in San Francisco just a few months ago. >> Yeah. >> Big news hit. >> Yeah. >> The bomb around the world, the rock that hit the ground really hard, shook everyone up, surprised everyone including me, I'm like "Wow, IBM and Red Hat". What an interesting relationship, obviously the history with IBM has been good. Talk about the announcement with IBM because this is huge. Of course, big numbers, but also impact wise pretty big. >> Yeah, it's exciting times right? And if you kind of look at, you know, from the perspective of Red Hat in this, this will allow us to really scale and accelerate what we've already been doing for the past, you know, since really the 1994 era when Red Hat was founded and, you know, it kind of validates a lot of what we've put into open source and enterprise customers since then. You know, we really see a couple of key outtakes from this, one of which is, certainly it's going to give us the resources to be able to really grow with the scale that we need to. It's also going to allow us to invest more in open source in emerging areas, bring the value of scale and certainly choice and flexibility to more customers, and then ultimately kind of the global advantage of hybrid and multi cloud, we'll be able to reach more partners and customers everywhere, and it puts us several years ahead of where we have been and where we would have been frankly, and ultimately our intent is that with IBM we'll become the leading hybrid and multi cloud provider overall. >> Yeah, Jimmy and Jim Whitehurst kind of ruined our Sunday, we were sitting down to watch football and he's like got the announcement. And then Jimmy kept saying "It's not backend loaded, it's not backend loaded" and then you start to realize, wow, IBM has an enormous business of managing applications that need to be modernized and OpenShift is obviously a great place to do that so, it's got to be super exciting for you guys to have that giant new opportunity to go after as well as global scale that you didn't have before. >> And, you know, this extends the stuff that we did, announced in May at Red Hat Summit with IBM where we really focused on how do we take WebSphere DB2MQ, running on IBM cloud private, running on OpenShift, and make that the hybrid choice. And so it's a natural extension of what we've already been doing and it gives us a lot more resources than we would have otherwise. >> This is good, coming into the next segment I want to chat about is RHEL, and what people might not understand from the announcment is the synergy you guys have with IBM because, being a student of Red Hat, being just in the industry when you guys were rebels, open source, second tier citizen, and the enterprise, the adoption then became tier one service. I mean you guys have, level of service, 17 years or something, huge numbers, but remember where it all started. And then you became a tier one supplier to almost all the enterprises, so you're actually a product company as well as a huge open source player. That's powerful and unique. >> Absolutely, even if you look at kind of what Amazon is doing this week and have been doing over the years, they're a huge value ad provider of open source technology as well, and one of the statements that we've always made is, the public cloud would not exist if not for Linux and open source, and so everything has been based upon that. There's one provider that doesn't use Linux as the base of their platform but certainly as we've taken the in roads into the enterprise, you know, I was there when it started with just turning Red Hat Enterprise Linux on and then bringing it from the edge of network into the data center and talking about major providers like Oracle, HP, Del, IBM as part of that. Now, we're looking at "Is it a de facto standard?", and everyone including Amazon and all of it's competitors are really invested heavily in the open source world. >> And so, let's talk about the impact to the products, okay so one of the things that has come up, at least on my Twitter feed and the conversations is, okay, it's going to take some time to close the deal, you're still Red Hat, you're still doing your things, what's the impact to the customers and to the ecosystem in your mind? How are you guys talking about that right now? Obviously, it's more of the same, keep the Red Hat same, unique, independent, what new thing is going to come out of it? >> So, to be clear, the deal has not closed, right, so there's not a lot we're going to say otherwise. >> A year away, you got a lot of work to do. >> Our focus is what it always has been. Let's build the best enterprise products using the open source development model and make those available across all public and hybrid cloud environments. >> At a certain level, that's enterprise, multi-year, old Red Hat, same Red Hat model, alright. >> But let me follow up on that, because you're a believer in multi cloud, we're a believer in, whatever you call it, multiple clouds, customers are going to use multiple clouds. We believe that, you believe that, it seems like Amazon has a slightly different perspective on that, >> Cause they're one cloud. >> in that this greater value, right cause they're one cloud, there's greater value, but it seems like the reality when you talk to customers is, we're not just one company, we've got different divisions, and eventually we've got to bring those together in some kind of extraction layer. That's what you guys want to be, right? So, your perspectives on multi cloud? >> Absolutely, so, each individual department, each project, each developer, in all of these major enterprises, you know, has a different vantage, and yes, there are corporate standards, golden masters of RHEL that get produced, everybody's supposed to be using, but you know, the practicalities of how you develop software, especially in the age of dev ops and containers and moving forward is actually, you have to have the choice necessary to meet your specific needs, and while we will absolutely do everything we can to make sure that things are consistent, I mean, we started this with RHEL consistency, on and off premise, when we did the original Amazon relationship. The point is, you need to be able to give people the flexibility and choice that they desire, regardless of what area of the company that they're in, and that's going to be the focus, regardless of whether it's Microsoft, Amazon, Google, IBM clouds, international clouds with Alibaba, it's all the same to us and we have to make sure it's there. >> What's always great about the cloud shows, especially this one, it's one of my favorites, because it really is dev ops deep in the mindset culture. As you see AI and machine learning start to get powered by all these great resources, computer, et cetera, the developer is going crazy, there's going to be another renaissance in software development, and then you got things like Kubernetes and containers now mainstream. Kubernetes almost, I say, de facto standard. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely happened, you guys had a big part of making that happen. People are now agreeing on things, so the formation's coming together pretty quickly, you're seeing the growth, we're hearing terms like "co-creation", "co-opetition", those are signals for a large rising tide, your thoughts? >> So, it's interesting, we were an early investor in Kubernetes, we actually launched OpenShift prior to Kubernetes, and then we adopted it and made a shift of our platform before it was too late. We did the same thing with hypervisors when we moved from Zen to KBM, but this overall approach is, once we see the energy happening both in the community and the early customers, then you see the partners start to come on board, it becomes the de facto standard, it's really crucial for us as an open source company to make sure we follow those trends, and then we help mature them across the business ecosystem, and that's something we've loved being able to engage with. I mean, Google certainly instigated the Kubernetes movement, but then it starts to propagate, just like on the open stack side, it came out of Rackspace and Nasa and then moved on to different areas and so, you know, our focus is, how do we continue that choice and that evolution overall? >> How would you talk about the impact of Kubernetes if someone says "Hey Mike, what's the real impact, what is it going to accomplish at the end of the day?" What's your view of that? >> It will have the same impact that the Linux current standardization has had, you know, but in this case for micro services and application packaging and being able to do dev ops much more efficiently across heterogeneous platforms. >> Does it make it easier or less painful or does it go away? Is it automated under the covers? I mean, this is a big, awesome opportunity. >> So the orchestration capabilities of Kubernetes combined with all the other tools that surround key container platforms like OpenShift, really give that developer the full life cycle environment to be able to take something from concept through deployment, and onto the maintenance phases, and you know, what we end up doing is we look at, okay the technologies are there, what value ads to we have around that to make sure that a customer and a developer cn actually maintain this thing long term and keep their enterprise applications up? >> So, security for example. >> Security is a great example, right? How do we make sure that every container that gets deployed on Kubernetes platforms or by Kubernetes platforms, that every container that's deployed which, keep in mind, is an operating system, it has an operating system in the container itself, how is that kept up to date? How do you make sure that when the next security errata is released, from us or a different vendor possibly, how do you make sure that that container is secure? And, you know, we've done a lot in our registry as well as our catalog to make sure that all of our partners and customers can see their containers, know what grade they have in a security context, and be able to grow that. That's one of the core things that we see adding into this Kubernetes value and authorization level. >> It's not a trivial technical problem either. >> No. >> Sometimes micro services aren't so micro. >> It's been part of what we've for RHEL from the start, it's been how do we bring that enterprise value into technology that is maturing out of the open source community and make that available to customers? >> Yeah, one of the key things you guys, first of all, OpenShift has been phenomenal, you guys did a great job with that, been watching that grow, but I think a real seminal moment was the CoreOS acquisition. >> Sure. >> That was a real turbo boost for you guys, great acquisition, fits in with the culture, and then Kubernetes just lifted from that, that was the point but, at the timing of all this, Kubernetes gets mainstream lift, people recognize that the standardization it is a good thing, and then, boom, developers are getting engaged. >> Yeah, and if you see what the CoreOS environment has brought us from over their updates for our platforms, to being able to talk about a registry in the environment. Being able to say that, is kind of additive to this overall messaging, it really rounds out the offering for us, and allows us to participate even more deeply in the communities as well. >> Well, we're looking forward to keeping you covered, we love Kubernetes, we've got a special report called "Kubernetes Special Report" on siliconangle.com, it's called "The Rise Of Kubernetes", it's a dedicated set of content, we're publishing a lot on Kubernetes. Final question I want to get to you because I think it's super important, what's the relationship you have with AWS? And take some time to explain the partnership, how many years, what you guys are doing together, I know you're actively involved, so take a minute. >> It is somewhat blurry, it's been a long time, so 2007 era is when we started in depth with them, and I can remember the early days, actually in the development of S3, prior to EC2, being able to say alright, what is this thing and how does Red Hat participate in this? And I think, yesterday Terry Wiese even mentioned that we were one of the first partners to actually engage in the consumption model and, you know, claiming partial credit for out 34 billion dollar valuation that we just got announced. But, you know, overall the relationship really spawned out of that, how do we help build a cloud and how do we help offer our products to our customers in a more flexible way? And so that snowballed over the years from just early adopters being able to play with it to now where you see it's many many millions of dollars that are being generated in customers and they think, in the hundreds of millions of hours of our products being consumed, at least within a month if not shorter timeframes, every time period we have. >> You know that's an unsung benefit that people might not know about with Red Hat is that, you guys are in early markets because, one, everyone uses Linux pretty much these days for anything core, meaningful. And you listen to community, and so you guys are always involved in big moving things, cloud, Amazon, 2007, it was command line back then. >> Yeah. >> It wasn't even, I think RightScale just came online that year, so you remember. You guys are always in all these markets so it's a good indicator, you guys are a bellwether, I think it's a good beacon to look at. >> And we do this, certainly on the container space, and the middleware space, and the storage space, you know, we replicate this model and, including in management, about how do we actually invest in the right places where we see the industry and communities going so we can actually help those? >> And you're very partner friendly, you bring a lot to the table, I love the open source ethos, I think that's the future. The future of that ethos of contributing to get value downstream is going to be a business practice, not just software, so you guys are a big part of the industry on that and I want to give you guys props for that. Okay, more Cube coverage here in Las Vegas, AWS Reinvent, after this short break, more live coverage, I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, we'll be right back. (electronic music)

>> Live from New York, it's theCUBE, covering theCUBE New York City 2018. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back. This is theCUBE live in New York City for theCUBE NYC, #CUBENYC. This is our ninth year covering the big data ecosystem, which has now merged into cloud. All things coming together. It's really about AI, it's about developers, it's about operations, it's about data scientists. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Brent Compton, Technical Marketing Director for Storage Business at Red Hat. As you know, we cover Red Hat Summit and great to have the conversation. Open source, DevOps is the theme here. Brent, thanks for joining us, thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure, thank you. >> We've been talking about the role of AI and AI needs data and data needs storage, which is what you do, but if you look at what's going on in the marketplace, kind of an architectural shift. It's harder to find a cloud architect than it is to find diamonds these days. You can't find a good cloud architect. Cloud is driving a lot of the action. Data is a big part of that. What's Red Hat doing in this area and what's emerging for you guys in this data landscape? >> Really, the days of specialists are over. You mentioned it's more difficult to find a cloud architect than find diamonds. What we see is the infrastructure, it's become less about compute as storage and networking. It's the architect that can bring the confluence of those specialties together. One of the things that we see is people bringing their analytics workloads onto the common platforms where they've been running the rest of their enterprise applications. For instance, if they're running a lot of their enterprise applications on AWS, of course, they want to run their analytics workloads in AWS and that's EMRs long since in the history books. Likewise, if they're running a lot of their enterprise applications on OpenStack, it's natural that they want to run a lot of their analytics workloads on the same type of dynamically provisioned infrastructure. Emerging, of course, we just announced on Monday this week with Hortonworks and IBM, if they're running a lot of their enterprise applications on a Kubernetes substrate like OpenShift, they want to run their analytics workloads on that same kind of agile infrastructure. >> Talk about the private cloud impact and hybrid cloud because obviously we just talked to the CEO of Hortonworks. Normally it's about early days, about Hadoop, data legs and then data planes. They had a good vision. They're years into it, but I like what Hortonworks is doing. But he said Kubernetes, on a data show Kubernetes. Kubernetes is a multi-cloud, hybrid cloud concept, containers. This is really enabling a lot of value and you guys have OpenShift which became very successful over the past few years, the growth has been phenomenal. So congratulations, but it's pointing to a bigger trend and that is that the infrastructure software, the platform as a service is becoming the middleware, the glue, if you will, and Kubernetes and containers are facilitating a new architecture for developers and operators. How important is that with you guys, and what's the impact of the customer when they think, okay I'm going to have an agile DevOps environment, workload portability, but do I have to build that out? You mentioned people don't have to necessarily do that anymore. The trend has become on-premise. What's the impact of the customer as they hear Kubernetese and containers and the data conversation? >> You mentioned agile DevOps environment, workload portability so one of the things that customers come to us for is having that same thing, but infrastructure agnostic. They say, I don't want to be locked in. Love AWS, love Azure, but I don't want to be locked into those platforms. I want to have an abstraction layer for my Kubernetese layer that sits on top of those infrastructure platforms. As I bring my workloads, one-by-one, custom DevOps from a lift and shift of legacy apps onto that substrate, I want to have it be independent, private cloud or public cloud and, time permitting, we'll go into more details about what we've seen happening in the private cloud with analytics as well, which is effectively what brought us here today. The pattern that we've discovered with a lot of our large customers who are saying, hey, we're running OpenStack, they're large institutions that for lots of reasons they store a lot of their data on-premises saying, we want to use the utility compute model that OpenStack gives us as well as the shared data context that Ceph gives us. We want to use that same thing for our analytics workload. So effectively some of our large customers taught us this program. >> So they're building infrastructure for analytics essentially. >> That's what it is. >> One of the challenges with that is the data is everywhere. It's all in silos, it's locked in some server somewhere. First of all, am I overstating that problem and how are you seeing customers deal with that? What are some of the challenges that they're having and how are you guys helping? >> Perfect lead in, in fact, one of our large government customers, they recently sent us an unsolicited email after they deployed the first 10 petabytes in a deca petabyte solution. It's OpenStack based as well as Ceph based. Three taglines in their email. The first was releasing the lock on data. The second was releasing the lock on compute. And the third was releasing the lock on innovation. Now, that sounds a bit buzzword-y, but when it comes from a customer to you. >> That came from a customer? Sounds like a marketing department wrote that. >> In the details, as you know, traditional HDFS clusters, traditional Hadoop clusters, sparklers or whatever, HDFS is not shared between clusters. One of our large customers has 50 plus analytics clusters. Their data platforms team employ a maze of scripts to copy data from one cluster to the other. And if you are a scientist or an engineer, you'd say, I'm trying to obtain these types of answers, but I need access to data sets A, B, C, and D, but data sets A and B are only on this cluster. I've got to go contact the data platforms team and have them copy it over and ensure that it's up-to-date and in sync so it's messy. >> It's a nightmare. >> Messy. So that's why the one customer said releasing the lock on data because now it's in a shared. Similar paradigm as AWS with EMR. The data's in a shared context, an S3. You spin up your analytics workloads on AC2. Same paradigm discussion as with OpenStack. Your spinning up your analytics workloads via OpenStack virtualization and their sourcing is shared data context inside of Ceph, S3 compatible Ceph so same architecture. I love his last bit, the one that sounds the most buzzword-y which was releasing lock on innovation. And this individual, English was not this person's first language so love the word. He said, our developers no longer fear experimentation because it's so easy. In minutes they can spin up an analytics cluster with a shared data context, they get the wrong mix of things they shut it down and spin it up again. >> In previous example you used HDFS clusters. There's so many trip wires, right. You can break something. >> It's fragile. >> It's like scripts. You don't want to tinker with that. Developers don't want to get their hand slapped. >> The other thing is also the recognition that innovation comes from data. That's what my takeaway is. The customer saying, okay, now we can innovate because we have access to the data, we can apply intelligence to that data whether it's machine intelligence or analytics, et cetera. >> This the trend in infrastructure. You mentioned the shared context. What other observations and learnings have you guys come to as Red Hat starts to get more customer interactions around analytical infrastructure. Is it an IT problem? You mentioned abstracting the way different infrastructures, and that means multi-cloud's probably setup for you guys in a big way. But what does that mean for a customer? If you had to explain infrastructure analytics, what needs to get done, what does the customer need to do? How do you describe that? >> I love the term that industry uses of multi-tenant workload isolation with shared data context. That's such a concise term to describe what we talk to our customers about. And most of them, that's what they're looking for. They've got their data scientist teams that don't want their workloads mixed in with the long running batch workloads. They say, listen, I'm on deadline here. I've got an hour to get these answers. They're working with Impala. They're working with Presto. They iterate, they don't know exactly the pattern they're looking for. So having to take a long time because their jobs are mixed in with these long MapReduce jobs. They need to be able to spin up infrastructure, workload isolation meaning they have their own space, shared context, they don't want to be placing calls over to the platform team saying, I need data sets C, D, and E. Could you please send them over? I'm on deadline here. That phrase, I think, captures so nicely what customers are really looking to do with their analytics infrastructure. Analytics tools, they'll still do their thing, but the infrastructure underneath analytics delivering this new type of agility is giving that multi-tenant workload isolation with shared data context. >> You know what's funny is we were talking at the kickoff. We were looking back nine years. We've been at this event for nine years now. We made prediction there will be no Red Hat of big data. John, years ago said, unless it's Red Hat. You guys got dragged into this by your customers really is how it came about. >> Customers and partners, of course with your recent guest from Hortonworks, the announcement that Red Hat, Hortonworks, and IBM had on Monday of this week. Dialing up even further taking the agility, okay, OpenStack is great for agility, private cloud, utility based computing and storage with OpenStack and Ceph, great. OpenShift dials up that agility another notch. Of course, we heard from the CEO of Hortonworks how much they love the agility that a Kubernetes based substrate provides their analytics customers. >> That's essentially how you're creating that sort of same-same experience between on-prem and multi-cloud, is that right? >> Yeah, OpenShift is deployed pervasively on AWS, on-premises, on Azure, on GCE. >> It's a multi-cloud world, we see that for sure. Again, the validation was at VMworld. AWS CEO, Andy Jassy announced RDS which is their product on VMware on-premises which they've never done. Amazon's never done any product on-premises. We were speculating it would be a hardware device. We missed that one, but it's a software. But this is the validation, seamless cloud operations on-premise in the cloud really is what people want. They want one standard operating model and they want to abstract away the infrastructure, as you were saying, as the big trend. The question that we have is, okay, go to the next level. From a developer standpoint, what is this modern developer using for tools in the infrastructure? How can they get that agility and spinning up isolated, multi-tenant infrastructure concept all the time? This is the demand we're seeing, that's an evolution. Question for Red Hat is, how does that change your partnership strategy because you mentioned Rob Bearden. They've been hardcore enterprise and you guys are hardcore enterprise. You kind of know the little things that customers want that might not be obvious to people: compliance, certification, a decade of support. How is Red Hat's partnership model changing with this changing landscape, if you will? You mentioned IBM and Hortonworks release this week, but what in general, how does the partnership strategy look for you? >> The more it changes, the more it looks the same. When you go back 20 years ago, what Red Hat has always stood for is any application on any infrastructure. But back in the day it was we had n-thousand of applications that were certified on Red Hat Linux and we ran on anybody's server. >> Box. >> Running on a box, exactly. It's a similar play, just in 2018 in the world of hybrid, multi-cloud architectures. >> Well, you guys have done some serious heavy lifting. Don't hate me for saying this, but you're kind of like the mules of the industry. You do a lot of stuff that nobody either wants to do or knows how to do and it's really paid off. You just look at the ascendancy of the company, it's been amazing. >> Well, multi-cloud is hard. Look at what it takes to do multi-cloud in DevOps. It's not easy and a lot of pretenders will fall out of the way, you guys have done well. What's next for you guys? What's on the horizon? What's happening for you guys this next couple months for Red Hat and technology? Any new announcements coming? What's the vision, what's happening? >> One of the announcements that you saw last week, was Red Hat, Cloudera, and Eurotech as analytics in the data center is great. Increasingly, the world's businesses run on data-driven decisions. That's great, but analytics at the edge for more realtime industrial automation, et cetera. Per the announcements we did with Cloudera and Eurotech about the use of, we haven't even talked about Red Hat's middleware platforms, such as AMQ Streams now based on Kafka, a Kafka distribution, Fuze, an integration master effectively bringing Red Hat technology to the edge of analytics so that you have the ability to do some processing in realtime before back calling all the way back to the data center. That's an area that you'll also see is pushing some analytics to the edge through our partnerships such as announced with Cloudera and Eurotech. >> You guys got the Red Hat Summit coming up next year. theCUBE will be there, as usual. It's great to cover Red Hat. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, Brent. Appreciate it, thanks for spending the time. We're here in New York City live. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vallante, stay with us. All day coverage today and tomorrow in New York City. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Live, from Las Vegas! It's theCUBE! Covering the VMworld 2018. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. We're in Las Vegas, and you're watching theCUBE's exclusive coverage of VMworld 2018. I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost Justin Warren, and happy to welcome to the program for the first time, James Labocki, who's a director of product management with Red Hat. And joining him is CUBE alum, Rob Young, who's the lead manager of virtualization product management strategy, also with Red Hat, wearing the shadow man logo. Rob, James, thank you so much for joining us. >> Great to be here >> Thanks for having us. >> Alright, so Rob, we touch base with Red Hat at a number of shows, you know, Red Hat Summit. We spoke with you last year at VMworld. Give us the update, Red Hat's got a nice booth here at the show, A lot of things going on, Red Hat plays in a lot of the multi-cloud environments that I hear VMware talking about, so, talk about your presence here. >> So, Red Hat has done quite a bit of growing over the course of the last year that we talked. We are focused on not only where our customers are today, but also on how our portfolio needs to evolve to where they aspire to be. And by that, I mean, RHEL is still the foundation of our business. We have Red Hat Virtualization, we have OpenStack Platform, we have the OpenShift, as you know, and what we're learning from our customers and the market, is that, on top of RHEL, customers have not only a footprint in the virtualization world, but they have an aspiration to evolve along with the market to more of a containerized world that is managed, orchestrated, delivered via Kubernetes, and we feel that our portfolio is well positioned with the pillars of our business from infrastructure to application middleware all the way through management, to allow them to act on those aspirations, not in the future but right now. So that's where we are. Our strategy is build around that vision and around that level of enablement and market dynamic, right now, so we're excited, would you agree? >> Yeah absolutely. A lot of interest in OpenShifted option, whether that's on the Vmware platform itself, out on the public clouds, and then on KVR, KVM based hypervisors with Red Hat Virtualization OpenStack Platform as well. >> Yeah it's interesting because, I've watched this adoption of containerization in the marketplace. What's the line I hear from Red Hat? It's like, Linux is containers, containers are Linux. >> Hey you got that good. >> Yeah I got the t shirt too. But, you know, here at VMworld, some people are still trying to understand that virtualization versus containers and, "How do I stack things?" "How do I do that?" What do you hear from customers? Where is their head at? Talk to us about, you know, it's pervasive in the product line so how do you think about it internally too? >> Yeah absolutely so, I think containers are absolutely Linux and Linux is fundamental to containers, so I think one of the most interesting paradigms that we're seeing, or one of the interesting trends we're seeing is that as people are beginning to adopt containers, they're also beginning to realize that they're looking to simplify their environments as they do that. And so it's presenting a lot of new opportunities and reinvigoration of other technologies. So things like traditional virtualization that they have in place today, they're looking at, maybe bringing along KVM and starting to orchestrate containers and virtual machines with Kubernetes in a consistent manner across both on-premise and public cloud providers. So, we're really excited to be involved in projects around that. We're helping drive the adoption of that. And with that reinvigoration of KVM as a hypervisor, based on that work, to bring a common orchestration layer we're seeing even reinvigoration of the ecosystem around KVM with partners of ours like Trilio, Maxta, Veeam, and so on and so forth, which have been kind of discussed in... >> Yeah, Sorry. >> Well I was just going to add to what Dave said. What we see also happening is that the Linux market 25 years ago was open-source, contributor laden. Red Hat was fully engaged there, we are seeing that very same dynamic happening in the Kubernetes environment. We actually see that as very much the equivalent of what Linux was 25 years ago, so we are contributing upstream to the Kubernetes project, but our goal really is not only to stabilize and build out Kubernetes, but also to bring the virtualization aspect that we had brought into KVM and to virtualization into the Kubernetes project and community so that we can get rid of an additional layer of complexity around the hypervisor allowing containers to be managed and deployed and to have the same isolation levels that you have with VMs now. So all that is in process now. We've got upstream work going on and we're leading a lot of those contributions in the Kubernetes community, specifically via the Kubert project so anyway... >> Leads nicely into what I wanted to ask about which was, Red Hat has a long history of open-source, and open-source is a really important part of containers in general. What are you seeing for enterprises in their adoption of open-source? I mean clearly you've watched it go from something which was once verboten, to now it's pretty much de facto. So what are you seeing customers using open-source for in this new cloud and container world? >> Yeah so I think, you know, the typical pattern we see is a lot of times previously people would look at open-source as a way to commoditize and reduce cost. That was the beginning of open-sources right, with the UNIX to Linux migrations and things of that nature. Now, open-source and really Linux is at the forefront of a lot of the innovation happening, so customers are using both those, basically, techniques inside of their environments to embrace open-source. So at one point, they're using their Linux skills to commoditize things inside their environment or reduce cost. They're also looking at it as the basis of containers, microservices, machine learning, so on and so forth, so really this common skillset of Linux is kind of on both sides, and it's really rooted in the open-source knowledge and methodologies that our customers need to be able to... >> You hit the nail right on the head when you mentioned that everything that has to do with the new modernization of the data center built on containers is open-source, and Red Hat's participation in the community is we already have credibility in the Linux world and the OpenStack world and the KVM world and the Kubernetes world as well, and what we're seeing on the customer side, specifically enterprise and public sector is, they are embracing open-source. They've actually got strategies that named open-source as part of the criteria for proof of concepts and things like that, and we believe we've been preparing for this moment for the last 25 years, for the market to really see this as an open opportunity, not only for open-source and communities, but also to enable their development staffs to extend and participate in those projects to their advantage, so it's a really good thing, for a Red Hat market. >> Yeah it's certainly encouraging to see it. Having watched it develop, it's been really nice seeing that actually get used with enterprises, and seeing that Red Hat is there, the whole way through that and as a trusted partner I'm sure gives them a lot of confidence. >> One thing I would add is just, it's not just about the ability to deliver open-source and to use it, although delivering that with along lifecycle is something that is a core competency of Red Hat as a company, but also the ability to actually affect change in those communities and get contributions back in is really key. And then, even advising customers on how to do that is something that we're, it's just to say, "Hey we do open-source," but actually providing that lifecycle around it is a whole nother story. >> Red Hat has a lot of experience living in a lot of different environments, just Linux is pervasive in the data center and in the cloud. When you talk about multi-cloud, customers need to figure out how to deal with these multi-could environments and you know, multi-cloud, multi-hypervisor, how does Red Hat help customers through this journey? >> So there's, we have a really good story there and really good enablement. There are basically four footprints that you can deploy an application on, physical, virtual; public, and private cloud, and red hat portfolio deploys nicely there, RHEL, VMs, OpenStack, OpenShift, containers, you name it. So our approach is, not only do we allow the deployment there, but also the management of it as well, and we agree with you wholeheartedly, workloads are portable, they're mobile, people are going to move them between clouds, on site, they're going to burst into clouds, so our solution to that is the management console that we provide with CloudForms, and our management vision going forward for software as a service and some other things that we're doing, is all about that heterogeneous environment. Multiple hypervisor, multiple cloud providers, multiple OSs as well, so, you know, we want people to see Red Hat as a platform to stabilize on, not a solution where they have to go out and cobble together a solution. They should be able to do everything with our product in a portfolio from a single management console, including that heterogeneous environment with multiple hypervisor, multiple cloud. So that's how we approach it and we're building on that concept, not only with CloudForms, but also with the new CoreOS Tectonic Platform that we just, acquired, that'll be part of OpenShift, and then going forward our management business unit is working on software as a service, consumption based model that allows customers to do the same thing from their phone as an example. It's that vision that we've already executed on, but it's only going to get bigger going forward. >> One thing I would add is, one thing that's fundamental to our vision is that we're actually delivering a consistency across all those footprints so, it's not one version of Kubernetes for public cloud, another version for on-premise, a different automation tool here and a different automation tool there, it's consistent right? Ansible automation across bare metal on-premise, virtualization, private, public cloud, OpenShift with the foundation of RHEL, consistent across all those for one version of Kubernetes across all of them. So I think that's a big key differentiator as opposed to some of the other visions where you have one version on public cloud, one version on private, different disparate tools tools for each of those. We really believe in simplifying that from a complexity standpoint. >> Well Rob and James, really appreciate you giving us the update on Red Hat. We'll be back with lots more coverage from VMworld 2018. For Justin Warren, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching theCUBE.

from San Francisco it's the queue covering Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat hey welcome back everyone here live in San Francisco at Moscone West of cubes exclusive coverage of Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John four with mykos John Troy a founder of tech reckoning advisory and on community services firm our next guest is Jason O'Connell openshift platform owner of mark mcquarrie group welcome to the cubes let's get it right that's right well the retail bank of Macquarie so thank you and financial services thanks for coming on so bossy begging is pretty hot big time early adopter of all things tech yes and you doing a lot of work at kubernetes tell us about what you're doing take a minute to explain your job what your focus is some of the some of the environment DevOps things you're doing it's a basically I'm head of the container platform team at Macquarie Bank so basically my team manages open shifts on AWS we do the architecture on there but we also focus a lot on the value add on top so we don't just give our our customers for my team are the developers and the development teams we don't just give them a blank platform we do a lot of automation a lot of work on top of that basically because we want to make sure that the idea of a platform as a service is that we do as much as possible to make developers lives easy talk about the journey when did you start on this effort Asli Amazon's great cloud we use it as well other clouds are coming on you had Google and Microsoft and others but when did the open shift conversations start happening where were you what year was it how long have you been using it it's gone through some great changes I want to get your experience on that open shifter journey I mean somewhat of an early adopter I mean we started looking at this two years ago so that was openshift 3.1 a lot of the basic features weren't even there and it took us a year to both build it out as well as migrate about 40 applications to production so it was only a year ago that we've been in production so it's evolved like so rapidly during that time so 40 applications migrating right that enough in and of itself in a year is is a pretty heavy lift can you talk a little bit about are you just re platforming the applications obviously probably not rewriting at this point the open shift has been a good home for the applications that you started out with it sounds like I mean one of the reasons to choose open shift was docker and it was about that migration path I mean part of the migration was ensuring that developers could get everything running locally get these legacy systems we did a lot of micro services running locally on docker containers on their laptop then the migration was was easy from there but we deliberately didn't want to do like a lift and shift we wanted to rethink how we delivered software as part of this project okay what's the biggest challenges you had in doing this I mean as you can open ships got some great movement Houston Cooper native good bet and kubernetes is looking like a really awesome way to move workloads around and manage containers and clusters so you know what's what are some of the things we've learned what are some of the complexities that you overcame can you share a little bit about some of the specifics I think I think the newness is is probably the biggest challenge I mean going back to two years ago there was some very basic components that weren't there at the time and we knew were coming and even now there are pieces of work which we just don't tackle and we do a very quick fix because we know it's coming later I mean it's just moving and evolving so quickly you know we're waiting a lot for sto which is coming in the future so we're holding back on investing in certain areas because of that so it's always a constant challenge yeah I still looking good and the service mesh is hot as well how has OpenShift helped you but what's the list if you had to kind of boil it down what's the bin the the impact to you guys where's the where's that coming from I mean before we even selected OpenShift we had we're looking at our objectives from a business perspective not a technology perspective I'm the biggest objective we had was speed to delivery you know how could you get a business idea a product idea into production as fast as possible or even if you look at a minor fix to something something that should be easier develop it takes a data ride why does it take a month to release the production so speed of delivery was one of the key objectives and I can tell you more about how we we delivered that in detail but just going back to the objectives we also looked at developer experience you know sometimes the developers are not spending enough time coding and doing it they want they get bogged down in a lot of other pieces of work that I I'm really delivering business value yeah so again we wanted the platform to handle that for them they could focus more on their work this is the promise of DevOps and the whole idea of DevOps is to automate away the hassles and I mean my partner Dave a lot that calls a rock fetches no one likes to do all that work it's like can someone else just handle it and then when you got now automation that frees it up but this brings up the thing that I would love to get your reaction to because one things we've been covering and talking a lot about in the cube is this isn't happening around us it's not just what we're doing but this new modern way to deploy software you'll get like some of the big things that are happening in with cloud native and you mission is do is to do this awesome dynamic things on the fly that are automated away so it changes the how software is being built how are you guys embracing that what's the thought obviously you've got a team that's got the mindset of dev yeah I'll see embracing this vision and if everything else is probably substandard she'll you look at you know waterfall or any kind of non agile what is the your view of this modern era of writing code and building applications what I mean for people who don't aren't getting it how are you how do you explain it you know I think it's I mean it's an unbelievable time that we're in at the moment I mean the amount of automation that we're doing is huge and part of our openshift is that it's an automated bull platform so I've got a few junior guys in my team they're like two graduates and in turn they do a lot of the automation yeah it's that easy if you look at interestingly in like security and risk teams and governance teams where we're finding look they can improve security risk and all this by automating you know they're the one set and now we've got SEC offs movements and things like that so speed of production is is does not prohibit better security and in fact with Sec ups the amount of automation we do you got a far greater amount of security because we now know everything that's deployed we can continually scanning for vulnerabilities yeah so Jason you talked about it being new we've talked a little bit about culture how much of this has been a training exercise how much is that it's been a cultural shift within your organization as one of the leaders of it how are you approaching I mean we're lucky there within Macquarie Bank there was a large scale culture shift towards agile where the whole bank runs in that gel manner so that's helped us then fill in our technology and automation it complements that way of delivering so we've got some very unique ways where we've done automation and delivery which completely rethinks how we used to deliver before so right example yeah for instance now if you think why were people scared of delivering something into production why was a small change scary change and a big part of it is the blast radius if something went wrong you know connecting through to our API is we've got our own channels mobile apps a website you've got a lot of partners there are the companies connecting through as well and so even if you did a small change if it costs an issue everyone's affected at once so a big piece of what we did to deliver faster is allowed targeted releases you know I could target a release and a change just to you we could target it to a percentage of customers monitor rolled out quickly if there's a problem dial it up if it's looking good good target to any channel it seems like there's a business benefit to that too right that's massive here because you also can promise stability on certain channels if you want you can have faster channels that are moving quickly and in an API driven world we've got external companies connecting through to these api's you want to be able to say that we've given you a stable offering and you can upgrade when you want and then our channels we cannot move more fast so we've got a minister no-brainer I mean really the old way is completely dead because of that because I think what the blast radius you're pointing about blast radius the risk is massive so everyone's kind of on edge all these tests have to go in redundancies as if the planning is ridiculous all for the risk all that energy you're optimizing for a potential non-event or event here with micro services and you an out can go down to the granular level the granularity is really amazing so when you go forward first of all it's a recruiting opportunity to get better engineers wait this is a way we work I'm going forward I want you to comment on your opinion as an industry participant and can clarify this because a lot of people get confused here Automation they think jobs are going away administration is getting automated system admin type roles where junior people can now do more operating things but the operating roles not going away so talk about that that ops side because now the ops are more efficient the right things are audited maybe but talk about that dynamic between the right things being automated and the right things that are gonna roll to operational service messages or whatnot yeah I mean basically it's about getting people to do these higher-order functions so the people who are doing things manually and operating things manually you look at our Ops teams now morphing into like the classic SRE team you know the side reliability engineering teams where they're spending a significant amount of that time automating things you know looking at alerting and monitoring and then Auto healing I mean it's actually more work to automate everything but with a far greater amount of quality and reliability and what we get and the benefits are long it's worth it basically you do the work upfront and you reap the benefits and then variety away it's like writing rolling out software managing workloads talk about multi class here on Amazon multi cloud is a big focus to your hybrid cloud multi-cloud obviously we're seeing that trend how do you look at multi cloud as a practitioner what are some of the things that check our check boxes for you in terms of okay as we start looking to the next level there might be a multiple cloud scenario how do you think about that and how do you put that into perspective that's worth noting even two years ago and we selected openshift it was with the idea that we could go multi cloud you know that for the users for the developers they're not going to know the difference where we run it on so we're not locked into any provider final question for you if you can boil down openshift into kind of like a soundbite for you what does it mean to you guys what's been the benefit what's been it it's been that what's been the role what's the benefit of OpenShift as you pour the cloud journey you know I could say speed I could say automation I mean that's huge but but really open shift and read how to pick the winner which is docker and kubernetes and a colleague of mine is in coop con in Copenhagen last week he's constantly messaging me saying there's new tooling you guys can use this you can use that and it means that rather than us doing the work we're just getting tooling from the community so it's the de facto standards so that's that's probably the biggest benefit all the goodness is just coming right to your front door luckily and I got to do my homework every night playing around with this technology so yeah gates success story and again the great community open-source projects out there you guys can bring that in and productize it for the retail bank congratulations love open-source stories like this tier one citizen and again continues to power the world open source softens the cube do our part bring and use all the data from Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John fryer with John Tory we'll be back with more after this short break

>> Narrator: Vancouver, Canada. It's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America, 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation and its Ecosystem partners. (soft music) >> Hi, and you're watching SiliconANGLE Medias coverage of theCUBE, here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in beautiful Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. We've been here, this is now the third day of coverage, John. We've done a couple dozen interviews already. We've got one more day of coverage. We had some kind of perceptions coming in and I have some interesting differing viewpoints as to where we are for OpenStack the project, where this show itself is going. First of all John, give me your impressions overall. Vancouver, your first time here, city I fell in love with last time I came here, and let's get into the show itself, too. >> Sure, sure, I mean the show's a little bit smaller this year than it had been in past years. Some of that is because they pulled some of the technical stuff out last year, or a couple years ago. By being a little bit smaller, and being in a place like Vancouver, I get good energy off of the crowd. The folks we've talked to, the folks that have been going to sessions, have said they've been very good. The people here are practitioners. They are running OpenStack, or about to run OpenStack, or upgrading their OpenStack, or other adjacent technologies. They're real people doing real work. As we talk to folks and sponsors, the conversations have been productive. So, I'd say in general, this kind of a small venue and a beautiful city allows for a really productive community-oriented event, so that's been great. >> Alright, so John come on, on the analysis segment we're not allow to pull any punches. Attendance, absolutely is down. Three years ago when we were here it was around 5500. Mark Collier, on our opening segment, said there was about 2600. But two-year point, I've not talked to a single vendor or attendee here that was like, "Oh boy, nobody's here, "it's not goin' on." Yes, the Expo Hall is way smaller and people flowing through the Expo Hall isn't great all the time, but why is that? Because the people that are here, they're in sessions. They have 40 sessions about Edge Computing. Hot topic, we've talked a bunch about that. Interesting conversations. There is way more in Containers. Containers for more than three years, been a topic conversation. There's so many other sessions of people digging in. The line you've used a couple a time is the people here are people that have mortgages. In a good way, it means these are jobs, these are not them, "Oh, I heard about "this cool new thing, and I'm going to "go check out beautiful Vancouver." Now, yes, we've brought our spouses or significant others, and checking out the environment because yeah, this place is awesome, but there's good energy at the show. There's good technical conversation. Many of the people we've talked to, even if they're not the biggest OpenStack fans, they're like, "But our customers are using this in a lot of different ways." Let's talk about OpenStack. Where is it, where isn't it? What's your take from what you've heard from the customers and the vendors? >> Sure, I definitely think the conversation is warranted. As we came in, from outside the community there was a lot of conversation, even backchannel, like why are you going to OpenStack Summit? What's going on there, is it still alive? Which is kind of a perception of maybe it's an indication of where the marketing is on this project, or where it is on the hype cycle. In terms of where it is and where it isn't, it's built into everything. At this point OpenStack, the infrastructure management, open infrastructure management solution, seems to be mature. Seems to be inside every Telco, every cable company, every transportation company, every bank. People who need private resources and have the smarts and power to do that have leveraged OpenStack now. That seems stable. What was interesting here is, that that doesn't speak to the health overall, and the history of, or the future of the project itself, the foundation, the Summit, I think those are separate questions. You know, the infrastructure and projects seem good. Also here, like we've talked about, this show is not just about OpenStack now. It's about Containers, it's broadening the scope of these people informally known as infrastructure operators, to the application level as well. >> Yeah, if you want to hear a little bit more, some two great interviews we did yesterday. Sean Michael Kerner, who's a journalist. Been here for almost every single one of the OpenStack shows. He's at eWeek, had some really good discussion. He said private cloud, it doesn't exist. Now, he said what does he mean by that? There are companies that are building large scalable cloud with OpenStack but it's like if some of the big China Telecom, big China cloud companies. Oracle and IBM have lots of OpenStack, in what they do, and yes there are, as you mentioned, the telcos are a big used case. We had some Canonical customers talking about Edge as in a used case for a different type of scalability. Lots of nodes but not one massive infrastructure as a service piece. If I talk, kind of the typical enterprise, or definitely going the SNE piece of the market, this is not something that they go and use. They will use services that have OpenStack. It might be part of the ecosystem that they're playing, but people saying, "Oh, I had my VMware environment "and I want to go from virtualization "to private cloud" OpenStack is not usually the first choice, even though Red Hat has some customers that kind of fit into some of the larger sides of that, and we'll be talking to them more about that today. Randy Bias is the other one, take a look. Randy was one of the early, very central to a lot of stuff happening in the Foundation. He's in the networking space now, and he says even though he's not a cheerleader for OpenStack, he's like, "Why am I here? "That's where my customers are." >> Right, right. I mean, I do think it's interesting that public cloud is certainly mentioned. AWS, Google, et cetera, but it's not top of mind for a lot of these folks, and it's mentioned in very different ways depending on, kind of, the players. I think it's very different from last week at Red Hat Summit. Red Hat, with their story, and OpenShift on top of OpenStack, definitely talked public cloud for folks. Then they cross-cloud, hybrid-cloud. I think that was a much different conversation than I've been hearing this week. I think basically, kind of maybe, depends on the approach of the different players in the market, Stu. I know you've been talkin' to different folks about that. >> Yeah, absolutely. So like, Margaret Dawson at Red Hat helped us talk about how that hybrid-cloud works because here, I hate to say it's, some oh yeah, public cloud, that's too expensive. You're renting, it's always going to be more. It's like, well no, come on, let's understand. There's lot of applications that are there and customers, it's an and message for almost all of them. How does that fit together, I have some critiques as to how this goes together. You brought up another point though John, OpenStack Foundation is more than just OpenStack projects. So, Kata Containers, something that was announced last year, and we're talking about there's Edge, there's a new CI/CD tool, Zuul, which is now fully under the project. Yes, joke of the week, there is no OpenStack, there's only Zuul. There are actually, there's another open-source project named Zuul too, so boy, how many CI/CD tools are out there? We've got two different, unrelated, projects with the same name. John, you look at communities, you look at foundations, if this isn't the core knitting of OpenStack, what is their role vis-a-vis the cloud native and how do they compare to say, the big player in this space is Linux Foundation which includes CNCF. >> That's a good one. I mean, in some sense like all organic things, things are either growing or shrinking. Just growing or dying. On the other hand, in technology, nothing ever truly dies. I think the project seems mature and healthy and it's being used. The Foundation is global in scope and continues to run this. I do wonder about community identity and what it means to be an OpenStack member. It's very community-oriented, but what's at the nut of it here if we're really part of this cloud-native ecosystem. CNCF, you know, it's part of Linux Foundation, all these different foundations, but CNCF, on the other hand, is kind of a grab-bag of technology, so I'm not sure what it means to be a member of CNCF either. I think both of these foundations will continue to go forward with slightly different identities. I think for the community as a whole, the industry as a whole, they are talking and they better be talking, and it's good that they're talking now and working better together. >> Yeah, great discussion we had with Lisa-Marie Namphy who is an OpenStack Ambassador. She holds the meat up in Silicon Valley and when she positions it, it's about cloud-native and its about all these things. So like, Kubernetes is front and center whereas some of the OpenStack people are saying, "Oh no, no, we need to talk more about OpenStack." That's still the dynamic here was, "Oh, we go great together." Well, sometimes thou dost protest too much. Kubranetes doesn't need OpenStack, OpenStack absolutely must be able to play in this Container, cloud-native Kubranetes world. There's lots of other places we can learn about Kubranetes. It is an interesting dynamic that have been sorting out, but it is not a zero-sum game. There's absolutely lots, then we have, I actually was real impressed how many customers we got to speak with on the air this time. Nice with three days of programming, we had a little bit of flexibility, and not just people that were on the keynote stage. Not just people that have been coming for years, but a few of the interviews we had are relatively new. Not somebody that have been on since very early in the alphabet, now we're at queens. >> Right. >> Anything more from the customers or that Container, Kubranetes dynamic that you want to cover? >> Sure, well I mean just that, you know, Containers at least, Containers are everywhere here. So, I think that kind of question has been resolved in some sense. It was a little more contentious last year than this year. I'm actually more bullish on OpenStack as a utility project, after this week, than before. I think I can constantly look people in the eye and say that. The interesting thing for me though, coming from Silicon Valley, is you're so used to thinking about VCs and growth, and new startups, and where's the cutting edge that it's kind of hard to talk about this, maybe this open source business model where the customer basis is finite. It's not growing at 100% a year. Sometimes the press has a hard time covering that. Analysts have a hard time covering that. And if you wanted to give advice to somebody to get into OpenStack, I'm not sure who should if they're not in it already, there's definitely defined use cases, but I think maybe those people have already self-identified. >> Alright, so yeah, the last thing I wanted to mention is yeah. Big thank you to our sponsors to help get us here. The OpenStack Foundation, really supportive of us for years. Six years of us covering it. Our headline sponsor, Red Hat, had some great customers. Talked about this piece, and kind of we talk about it's practically Red Hat month on theCUBE for John with Red Hat Summit and OpenStack. Canonical, Contron, Nuage Networks, all helping us to be able to bring this content to you. Be sure to check out theCUBE.net for all the coverage in the past as well as where we'll be. Hit John Troyer, J. Troyer, on Twitter or myself, Stu, on Twitter if you ever have any questions, people we should be talking to, viewpoints, whether you agree or disagree with what we're talking about. Big thanks to all of our crew here. Thank you to the wonderful people of Vancouver for being so welcoming of this event and of all of us. Check out all the interviews. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (soft upbeat music)

(ambient Music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE. Covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, The OpenStack Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman, my cohost for the week is John Troyer, happy to welcome back to the program two CUBE alumni, we have Margaret Dawson and John Alessio. Margaret is the vice-president of Portfolio Product Marketing and John is the vice-president of Global Services. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> Good to be here. >> Alright so, John has gotten the week and a half now of the red hat greatness of being at summit last week, I unfortunately missed Summit, first time in five years I hadn't been at the show, did watch some of the interviews, caught up on it, and of course we talked to a lot of your team but, Margaret, let's start with you >> Margaret: Okay. >> One of the things we were looking at was, really, it's not just a maturation of OpenStack, but it's beyond where we were, how it fits into the greater picture, something we've been observing is when you think about open sourced projects, it's not one massive stack that you just deploy, it's you take what you need, it kind of gets embedded all over the place, and help us frame for us where we are today. >> Wow, that's a big question. So I think there's a couple things, I mean, in talking to customers, I think there's a couple trends that are happening. One is one you've probably talked about a lot and we probably covered at the Red Hat Summit which is just this overall digital transformation, digital leadership, whatever you want to call it, digital disruption tends to be a thing, and open sources definitely playing, really, the critical role of that, right, you will not be able to innovate and disrupt or even manage a disruption if you're not able to get to those technologies and innovations quickly and be able to adapt to it and have it work with other things. So the need for openness, for open APIs, for open technologies, inner-operability allows us to move faster and have that innovation and agility that every enterprise and organization needs world wide. And tied to that is kind of this overall hybrid cloud, so it's not just, OpenStack is a part of a much bigger kind of solution or goal that enterprises have in order to win and transform and be a digital leader. >> Margaret, I love that. Digital transformation, absolutely something we hear time and again from customers. >> Margaret: Yup. >> John, I've got a confession to make. I'm an infrastructure person and sometimes we're always like, why, come on, we spend all our time talking about how all the widgets and doo-dads and things-- >> Margaret: Blinky lights. >> Blinky lights, up on stage we have the-- >> He missed the blinking lights >> He did miss the blinking light. >> They had a similar stack up on stage yesterday. >> Oh, that's right. >> Same fans you could hear in the back of the room. But the whole goal of infrastructure always, of course, is to run the application, the whole reason for applications is to run and transform and do-- >> John: Serve the business >> Yeah, so that's where I'm going with this is we're talking more about not only that foundational layer of OpenStack but everything that goes with it and on it so maybe you could talk about the services-- >> Sure. So I think, Stu, that's exactly what we're seeing. So if you think about the last year and what we're seeing with services and projects here on OpenStack, I think the first thing to talk about is the fact that it's been growing quite a bit, in fact, from a 2017 versus 2018 perspective, our number of OpenStack projects have increased 36% year on year globally. So we're seeing a lot of demand, but we're seeing the projects be a lot more comprehensive. So these are OpenStack projects, but they're OpenStack with Open Shift, with Cloud Form, with Suff, as an example, and this combination is, really, a very very powerful combination. In fact, it's been so powerful that we started to see some common patterns of customers building a hybrid cloud solution, using OpenStack as their kind of private cloud infrastructure, but then using Open Shift as their way to kind of deploy applications in containers in that hybrid way, that we created a whole solution, which we announced two weeks ago, when John was at our Red Hat Summit, called Containers on Cloud. And that's taking all of our best practices around combining these products together in a very comprehensive, programmatic approach to deploying those solutions together. >> And I think it's really important, I mean, as you know, I think you and I met when we were both in networking, so coming from that infrastructure background but we really all need to talk about the workload down, starting with the application, starting with the business goal, and then how the infrastructure is almost becoming a services-based abstraction layer where you just need it to be always there. >> John: Yup. >> And whether it's public cloud or private cloud or traditional infrastructure, what developers in the business want is that agility and flexibility and containers provide that. There's other kind of architectural fabrics that allow that consistency and that's when it gets really exciting. >> One thing that's really interesting to me this week at OpenStack, as we've drilled into different customers, and talking to different people, even at lunch, is one, it's real. Everyone I've talked to, stuff in deployment, it went quickly, it's rock solid, it's powering, as we know, actually a lot of that is technical infrastructure that's powering a lot of the world's infrastructure at this point. >> That's right. >> The other thing that was interesting to me is some folks I talked to were saying, "Well, actually we have enough knowledge "that we're actually doing a lot of it ourselves, "we're going upstream." However, so that's great, and that's right for some people, but what I'm kind of been interested in both just coming from Red Hat Summit is both the portfolio, the breadth of the stack, and then all the different offerings that Red Hat, you know, it's not Rel anymore, it's not just Linux anymore, there's everything that's been built up and around and on top for orchestration and management, and then also the training, the services, the support, and that sort of thing, and I was wondering, that's kind of a two-part question, but maybe you all could tackle that. What does Red Hat bring to the table then? >> So, let me just start with, again, just to kind of position what we do as global services, our number one priority is customer success with Red Hat technology, that's the first and foremost thing we do and second is really around building expertise in the ecosystem so our customers have choice and where to go to get that expertise. So, if you start to look at kind of what's been going on as it relates to OpenStack, and, again, many customers are using Upstream bits, but many customers are using Red Hat bits, we see that and we look at the number of people who are getting trained around our technology. So over the last three years, we've trained, through our fee-based programs, 55,000 people on our OpenStack portfolio and in fact from 2017 to 2018 that was up 50% year on year and so the momentum is super super strong. So, that's the first point. The second is it's not just our customers. So part of my remit is, yes, to run consulting and, yes, to drive customer enablement and training, but it's also to build an ecosystem through our business partners. Our business partners use a program we call OPEN, Online Partner Enablement Network, which actually will just be celebrating five years just like OpenStack will, we'll be celebrating five years for OPEN. And our business partner accreditations on OpenStack specifically are up 49% year on year. So we're seeing the momentum in our regional systems integrators, our global systems integrators, our partners at large, building their solutions and capabilities around OpenStack, which I think is fantastic. >> No and it helps a lot with the verticalization of that, right, 'cause every industry has slightly different things they need. The thing I that would add to that, in terms of do-it-yourself community versus a dis-ter that's supported from someone like Red Hat, is it really comes down to core competency. And so even though OpenStack has become vastly simplified from a day one, day two, ongoing management, it is still a complex project. I mean that's the power of it, it can be highly customizable, right, it is an incredibly powerful infrastructure capability and so for most people their core competency is not that, and they need that support at least initially to get it going. What we have done is a couple things. I've actually talked to customers a lot about doing that training earlier and it's for a couple reasons, one is so that they actually have the people in house that have that competency but, two, you're giving infrastructure folks a chance to be part of that future cool stuff, right? I mean, OpenStack's written in Python and there's other languages that are newer and sexier, I guess, but it's still kind of moving them towards that future and for a lot of guys that have been in the data center and the ops world for a long time, they're looking out there at developers and going, I'm not the cool kid anymore, right? So OpenStack actually is a little bit of a window, not just to help companies go through that digital transformation, but actually help your ops personnel get a taste of that future and be part of that transformation instead of being stuck in just mainframe land or whatever, so training them early in the process is a really powerful way to do a lot of things. You know, skillset, retention, as well as then you can manage more of that yourself. >> And then all the way up to Stack, right? I mean, we're talking about containers, and then there's containers but then there's container data storage, container data networking. I mean, you've got the rest of the pieces in that, in Open Shift, in the rest. >> Absolutely. >> That is correct. >> And I think, John, you were at Red Hat Summit, we had a number of different innovation award winners. So I think one good example of kind of this kind of transformation from a digital transformation perspective, but also kind of leveraging a lot of what our Stack has to offer is Cafe Pacific. And so we talked about Cafe, they were one of our innovation award winners and what their challenge really was is how do they create a new modern infrastructure that gave them more flexibility so they could be more responsive to their customers. >> Yeah. >> In the airline industry. And so what they were really looking for was really, truly a hybrid cloud solution. They wanted to be able to have some things run in their infrastructure, have some things run in the public cloud, and we worked with them over the last, little over a year now, Red Hat consulting, Red Hat training, the Red Hat engineering team, in really building a solution that leverage OpenStack, yes, but also a number of other capabilities in the Red Hat portfolio, Open Shift, so they can deploy these applications, containerized applications now both to the public cloud as well as to the private cloud, but also automation through Ansible, which we're hearing a lot about Ansible and products like Ansible here at the conference-- >> Well the Open Stock and Ansible communities are starting to really work well together, just like Kubernetes, you've got a lot of this collaboration happening at the project level not to mention when we actually productize it and take it to customers. >> Yeah, so it's been super super powerful and I think it's a good one where it really hit on what Margaret was saying, which was giving the guys in infrastructure an opportunity to be a part of this huge transformation that Cafe went through, 'cause they were a very very key part of it. >> Yeah. Well, I think we're seeing that also with the open innovation labs. So this is something, which is really an innovation incubation process, it's agile, scrum, whatever, and in those we're not just talking to the developers, we're actually combining developers, functional lines of business leaders, infrastructure, architects, who all come together in a very typical six week kind of agile methodology and what comes out of that, I don't know, I've seen it a couple times, it's magical is all I can say, but having those different perspectives and having those different people work together to innovate is so powerful and they all feel like they're moving that forward and you come out with pilots, and we've seen things where they come out with two apps at the end of six weeks or eight weeks, it's just incredible when they're all focused on that and you start to understand those different perspectives and to me that's open source culture, right? It's awesome. >> And, Margaret, I'd love to hear your perspective also on that hybrid cloud discussion because so many people look at OpenStack and be like, oh, that's private cloud. >> Margaret: Right. >> And, of course, every customer we talk to, they have a cloud strategy. And they're doing lots of SaaS, they've got public cloud, multiple, Red Hat, I know you play across all of them, big announcement with Microsoft last week, last year was Amazon big partnerships with, so is Kubernetes the story, or is Kubernetes a piece of the story, how do all these play together for customers? >> I think Kubernetes is one and so, especially when you look at the broader architectural level, OpenStack becomes obviously the private cloud and enables them to start to do things that are more cloud-native even in their own data center, or if it's hosted or management or more traditional infrastructure, but it really has to be fluid. And a lot of customers initially were saying that their strategy was cloud first, and they would say, "Oh, we're going to put "everything in the public cloud." And then you actually start going through the workloads, you start going through the cost, you start going through the data privacy, or whatever the criteria capabilities are, and that's just not practical, frankly. And so this hybrid reality with private cloud, traditional, and public is going to be the reality for a very very long time, if not forever. There's always going to be things that you want to have better control of. And so Kubernetes at the orchestration layer becomes really critical to be able to have that agility across all those environments, but you have other fabrics like that in your architecture too, we talked about Ansible, it allows you to have common automation and do those play books that you can use across all those different infrastructure, KVM, what's your virtualization fabric, and can KVM take you from traditional virtualization all through public cloud? The answer is yes. So we're going to see increasingly these kind of layers of the overall architecture that allows you to have that flexibility, that management that's still the consistency, which is what you need to keep your policies the same, your access controls, you security, your compliance, and your sanity, whereas before it was kind of Ad Hoc. People would be like, oh, we're just going to put this here, go to public cloud. We're going to do this here, and now people are finding standardizing on things like even Red Hat Enterprise Linux, that's my OS layer, and that allows me to easily do Linux containers in a secure way, et cetera, et cetera. So, doing hybrid cloud means both the agility but you got to have some consistency in order to have the security and control that you need. So it's a little bit different than what we were talking about a few years ago, even. >> And I think one of the things that we've learned in the services world is that we started this idea about 18 months ago, we called these journey adoption programs, which were really the fact that some of these transformations are big, they're not about a single project that's going to last four to six weeks, it's a journey that the customer's going to go on and so when we talk about hybrid cloud, we've actually created this adoption program which can really start with the customer in this whole discovery phase, really, what are you trying to accomplish from a business perspective then take them into a design phase, take them into a deployment phase, take them into an enablement phase, and then take them into a sustainment phase. And there's a number of different services that we'll do across consulting, training, even within Marco Bill Peters Organization, which is our customer experience and engagement organization, around what role a technical account manager can play and really help our customer in the operational phases. And so we've learned this from some of the very large deployments, like Verizon, where we've seen some very-- >> And it's cyclical, right? You can do that many times. >> We do. In fact, you absolutely do. And so we've created now a program, specifically, around hybrid clouded option to try and de-mistify it. >> Yeah. >> Because it is complex. >> Well, and the reality is, there's somewhere around 30% of organizations still do not actually have a clear cloud strategy. And we see that in our own research, our own experiences, but industry analysts come up with the exact same number. >> And Margaret, by the way, the other 70%, the ink still pretty-- >> Yeah. >> Still wet! (laughing) >> Yes, it is. I'll tell you, I love saying cloud first to people because they kind of giggle. It's like, yeah, that's our strategy but we know we don't really know what that means. >> Which cloud? >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> All the clouds. >> Exactly. >> Alright, well Margaret and John, want to give you a final word, key takeaways you want to have or anything new to the show that you want to point out? >> I would just say we are still in early days. I think sometimes we forget that we, both in the open source communities, in the industry for a long time, tend to be 10 years ahead of where most people are and so when you hear jokes about, oh, is OpenStack still viable or is everything doing this, it's like right now we only have a very small percentage of actual enterprise workloads in the cloud and so we need to just now get to the point where we're all getting mature in this and really start to help our customers and our partners and our communities take this to the next level and work on inter-operability, and ease of use, and management. We're so mature now in technology, now let's put the polish on it, so that the consumption and the utilization can really go to the next level. >> Yeah, and I'll play off what Margaret said. I think it's very very key. When I look at where we've had the biggest success, as defined by, in that discovery phase, the customer lays out for us, here's what our business objectives were, did we achieve those business objectives, it's all about figuring out how we can create the solution and integrate into their environment today. So Margaret said I think very very well which is we have to integrate into these other solutions and every one of these big customer deployments has some Red Hat software, but it also has some other software that we're integrating into because customers have investments. So it's not about rip and replace, it's about integrate, it's about leverage, it's about time to market, and that's what most of the customers I've talked to, they're very worried about time to value, and so that's what we're trying to focus in, I think as a whole company, around Red Hat. >> Margaret: Agree. >> Absolutely. Summed it up very well. John Alessio, Margaret Dawson, thanks so much for joining us again. >> Thanks again. >> For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, watch more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE.

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America, 2018, Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stew Miniman here with theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. My co-host is John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program, we have Berna Devrim, who is the Senior Director of Product Marketing of Platform at Red Hat. And we are thrilled to have a customer on, Nico Wellner, who's a Unix Systems Engineer with Finanz Informatik out of Germany. Thank you both so much for joining. Alright, Berna let's start with you. Just give, your first time on the program I believe, so a little bit about your background. You've been with Red Hat less than a year so tell us your role there. >> Yeah, yeah I've been at Red Hat for nine, 10 months now. I've very very excited to be here in the Open Source community development model. It's a very unique opportunity, as I've been leading the platform's marketing, which includes Red Hat Enterprise Linux, as well as Red Hat Virtualization, and Red Hat OpenStack platform, of course, which is why we are here at OpenStack summit. >> Great. We've got Rhel, and RHV, and RHOSP, and lots of other "LMNOP's." So Nico, give us a little bit about your background. Tell us about your organization and then lets get into the mini case study we'll do with you. >> It's an honor for me to be here. Thank you very much for this. I working for Finanz Informatiks, as you said, and it's a centralized IT service provider in the S Finance Group in Germany, for savings banks and state banks. We always have about 400 institutes. Savings banks, individual savings banks. On our systems we are supporting more than 120 million accounts, bank accounts, nearly half of them online accounts. We also develop the software for the savings banks for our customers, not savings banks only. Also, assurances and state banks. We operate the applications we developed previously. It's a huge and amazing company with a lot of different groups and systems. >> Well, we're really glad you could make it here. With GDPR banging down the door in just a couple of days we expect everybody in Europe to be pretty busy getting ready for that. Tell us your role inside the organization. What's your team do? Your title has Unix in it, so what's that entail? Give us the scope of what you cover. >> I'm assistant engineer, as you said and I'm working in the department. We are integrating and operating the Unix systems, which are AIX, we have a huge AIX, and why-mite and a huge Lenox, and why-mite in our data centers. On these Lenox systems, we started with OpenStack in 2014, with testing, and went into production in 2015, half a year later. We integrated OpenStack. We operated and served for our customers internally on the OpenStack platform. We host one of our core applications, it's the internet banking for our customers, as I said for about 50 millions account. We have multiple OpenStack Clouds. My department is responsible for the clouds and for operating them well. >> Nico I wonder if we step back for a second and what led to you going down this path. Was the company figuring out its cloud strategy? Obviously financial institutions, we understand there's governance, compliance, security is a huge concern. What does Cloud mean to your team? What led you to OpenStack? Let's start with kind of that problem statement that you had. >> Yeah, it was the main reason we introduced OpenStack was the time to market was our applications, it was our environment. And it's a plummet process. Took a long time normally and the environment. With OpenStack we could dramatically increase the time to deploy the systems from days or weeks to minutes. So we solved one huge problem with OpenStack. What was another reason was vendor lock-in. We wanted to avoid vendor lock-in. So we decided for OpenStack because it's a huge open source software, great community, and very stable, in our case. So it's OpenStack for us. >> So Berna, I've actually had the opportunity to interview quite a few Red Hat customers. I remember three years ago we were actually in the other hallway here talking to FICO about their role out of Red Hat OpenStack. I hear some similar themes, but you've got access to way more customers than I do. What are you hearing from customers in general? Is this kind of the typical? Is speed and agility at the top of the list when it comes to their Cloud environment? >> Exactly Stew, just like Nico said, actually. Our customers tell us all the time that it is about speed and agility. But it's also about different types of use cases and the workloads that they're actually looking at in their environments. Very popular ones, the use cases are. For example, scale-out IS, as well as they have test environments for the clouds needs applications, for example. Also we do see that big data analytics, NFV also. So there are many different types of use cases we see from our customers. We also have been hearing that they are actually using Open Shift on top of the Red Hat OpenStack platform. Majority of them are either deploying it or planning to deploy containers. So we do see a lot of different, but similar, aspects as well. >> Yeah. Nico have you started to go down that path with containers, Kubernetes, all that stuff yet? >> Not so far. We plan to do so. In general will use containers, we are planning to. But we already started the process, but it would take a little bit. I'm saying that we're not sure if start with OpenStack, containers on OpenStack or plain, but I think that with OpenStack could be a great way to do so. Because one of the reasons is our OpenStack environment is very reliable. This is important for us, very important for us and our customers. Over the years, as I said, since 2015 we had no outage due to OpenStack and the whole environment is great for us. >> That's great. So where are you now in your Red Hat OpenStack deployment? You have an OpenStack in production and now you're already a Red Hat customer in other products and you're now going out with Red Hat OpenStack platform, is that correct? >> Yes that's correct, yeah. >> I'm kind of curious. One of the conversations around OpenStack is the component nature of it and that many OpenStack deployments are different. So as you're now deploying Red Hat and you were already on OpenStack, are the skills transferable? Do you find the the processes transferable? Do you feel that this was a good investment, no up time for three years now and now you're moving to this new platform. Do you and your team feel like you're able to properly instrument and maintain and operate it? >> I think it's the best platform for us for infrastructure and management, Lenix and why-mite. We want to in-wolf it furthermore. >> Stew: And the skills will still transfer? The skills you've known for years will still transfer to the new OpenStack? >> Yes we have only a few people working actively on the design and the architecture, and operating for OpenStack. It's turned out that we could do fine with them. Now we have huge experience with OpenStack, feel comfortable with it. We are planning to increase the OpenStack environment, slightly I think. But scale out works great for us. The OpenStack itself, in our case, we could very flexible do a systems releases, which is one important thing for us. I think the OpenStack itself is the best platform for us and our application tools. >> That's great. Berna I was at Red Hat Summit and the interesting thing there for me was the portfolio, the breadth of portfolio, right? One of the messages was clear. You've always depended on Red Hat Enterprise Lenix, and that's still there and containers are Lenix. There was lot of multi-cloud talk and stuff like that, and OpenStack was part of the mix. Can you talk a little bit about OpenStack as part of the Red Hat portfolio and what you all are bringing to the table, and how you're thinking of open shift on OpenStack and that sort of thing? >> Yeah, exactly. As you pointed out Red Hat is all about open hybrid cloud. Within that Red Hat OpenStack platform plays a big role, of course as you can imagine. What we are trying to do at OpenStack platform is to help our customers like Nico get towards the digital transformation. With that comes, again, the need for speed and agility. What we are enabling with OpenStack platform is we would like to call it powering the digital transformation through enabling our customers to accelerate their businesses by simplifying their applications and delivery as well as the services delivery, which then, of course, moves towards innovation, fast innovation at the speed of the business. At the same time, we are trying to enable IT teams to be empowered so that they can actually do the innovations at their own pace without worry, with all of the Red Hat portfolio, as you pointed out. Yeah. >> Nico, we'd love to hear your take on digital transformation. I think back, five years ago we were talking about financial institutions, oh well we need to go mobile. Well it's much more than that for most companies that I talk to. Do you consider a digital transformation in your company? How does that relate to what IT does to what the business does, to what your users need? >> It's one of our core tasks in our company to help our customers for digital transformation. Finanz Informatik itself sees itself to be the best partner for our customers to do this transformation. With leading technologies like OpenStack and a special case was Red Hat OpenStack, of course, which is a product which enables us to be flexible, secure, and fast with our environment, and to drive this process of digital transformation in the S Finance Group, Savings Finance Group. >> Alright, so you've been at this for three or four years now with OpenStack, I'd love to get what learnings you've had for peers of yours that might be earlier in their journey. What have you learned? What advice might you give them? Let's start there. >> Overall I would say the OpenStack environment is very reliable. More reliable as I thought at the beginning. But it's turned out it's really good. From the automation perspective it's a really nice, let's say tool, for our environment. I found OpenStack is a great project with a lot of software components you can combine. We have a flexible platform. We can add some components we do not have today, but are part of OpenStack community of OpenStack product at all, to enable additional functionalities to the environment, let's say for containers, for object solid, and something like that, and new services for our customers to decrease the time to market. >> Okay. One of the things that this show we're seeing is looking beyond where we've been. I think the keynote this word, people are asking to do more and in more places. Everything from containers, and edge, and server lists, and the like. What's interesting you these days as you look down the road? Different technologies that are in your roadmap in the future, inside or outside OpenStack? >> For our company, we are in the process to integrate new needs for our customers and we are planning to do a lot of big data. Maybe OpenStack could be part of the white platform forward for the future we are planning. I think it will be much more diverse in future because right now we do have one application running on it, one co-application. It's a co-application where we partnered for us. But we will maybe will spread it or enable it for other applications, because of the great experience we've made with it. >> Nico and Berna, thank you so much for giving us the updates on where you stand with OpenStack and all of your deployment. We'll be back here with lots more coverage here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver for John Troyer. I'm Stew Miniman. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, The OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia. It's Victoria Day, but we're working. So for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Happy to welcome back to the program, we've got Tim Burke who's the Vice President of Infrastructure and Cloud Engineering with Red Hat, and fresh off the keynote stage we have Mark McLoughlin who's the Senior Director of Engineering for OpenStack, also with Red Hat. Gentleman, thank you so much for joining us. >> Our pleasure, thank you. >> Thank you. All right, so Mark, I'll start with you. Keynote stage, you had a good discussion about, we were talking about open source, talking about community, is the themes that we heard at Red Hat Summit last weekend and again here at OpenStack. It's a nice couple of years in a row we've had the back-to-back of those two shows, so give us a little bit encapsulation of that message. >> Sure, I mean the key message of the keynote, really, was talking about the overlapping missions between the OpenStack and Kubernetes and really kind of showing how they come together for our customers and for users generally in terms of tackling that kind of broad, open infrastructure challenge of trying to give businesses the opportunity to be free from the infrastructure providers in terms of being able to switch between infrastructure providers and also OpenStack in terms of its role offering kind of on-premise infrastructure as an alternative to the public cloud. >> Yeah, Tim, I want to get your viewpoint on some things. It's interesting, we talk about we're at the OpenStack show but we're talking about containers, we're talking about edge computing. I think about one of the other foundations, The Linux Foundation does way more than Linux these days. They're doing all the cloud native things. Reminds me a lot of Red Hat themselves, broad spectrum of products. Sometimes it can almost get a little bit overwhelming for most people to say, "Oh my god, "there's so many projects, there's so many products. "How do you help me get to where I need to go "and where I need to go tomorrow?" What are you hearing from customers? How do you manage that? >> I think a lot of this mirrors Red Hat Enterprise Linux, and back when we started it was the day of the Unix wars, right? And in the early days of Linux it was this big challenge of getting your graphics drivers and putting all these pieces together, right? And now today it's more about broader infrastructure orchestration. And you see Mark Collier, for example, from The OpenStack Foundation started today showing a list of 30 different components that you have to piece together. And really, I think that that's what Red Hat focuses on, is two things. It's one, is where do we want to take the technology tomorrow through our open source fund, ranging from Linux to OpenStack and Ceph Filesystems, for example. But it's not just that. It's how do you get these pieces to work together? And I think that that's something that hasn't traditionally been the strength of the open source community because they may stick into these silos of operation. And I think that Red Hat's focus and strength right now is to do what we did for Red Hat Enterprise Linux in the OpenStack space by pulling all of these pieces together in a consumable and supported manner. >> Yeah, it's funny you mention getting graphics cards in. Come on, with the Queen's announcement we now have the virtual GPU support, so it feels like, but you know what, we've come so far yet. We're doing some of the same things over again. What are you hearing that's just massively different about kind of the state of open source today? And we just had one of your customers on talking about their digital transformation. >> I think what's really changed over the years in open source is I think it started out, honestly, as a clone. It was like can we compete with the likes of Solaris, right? And so it was, I'd call it catch up for innovation. Now you look at open source. It's not catching up, it's leading all the innovation today whether it's all the major public clouds are based on open source technologies. When we started open source was unproven and many customers were skeptical of consuming it. Now you're seeing customers, governments, all sorts of different businesses demanding open source because they want choice, they don't want to be locked into any one vendor, and they want to be able to work collaboratively to harness the power. And I think that collective collaborative model has really pretty proven its effectiveness. >> Mark, I wanted to talk a little bit about OpenStack itself. I think last year at OpenStack Summit there was a lot of talk. People seemed to be a little bit confused or at least there was a lot of interesting architectural conversations, containers on top, containers on the bottom, what sits on the bare metal. This year both at Red Hat Summit and here and even in the industry at large I think a lot of that conversation has clarified. There's the (laughs) application layer and there's an infrastructure layer which does very hard things that the application layer does not have to worry about. How are you looking at OpenStack as a citizen of the industry and of the Stack connections with other open source and taking care of that infrastructure piece in 2018, right, which is, we're pretty far from where we started. >> No, great points. To highlight those architectural discussions and really trying to figure out the kind of layering there obviously kind of approach OpenStack as kind of the best tool for managing your infrastructure, getting your infrastructure under control, making it scalable, making it automatable, and then building an application platform on top of that. I may have confused the architectural discussion a little bit this morning with the keynote because what we actually showed in the keynote was on the rack on stage we had an OpenStack cloud running on bare metal and then we would end deploying Kubernetes. Our open shift distribution, we were deploying that also on bare metal alongside OpenStack. Whereas I think often people would assume if you're going to do Kubernetes on OpenStack you're going to do it in virtual machines that are managed by OpenStack. But we were actually showing how you can use OpenStack to manage the bare metal, that you're actually running Kubernetes directly on the bare metal but that there's still integration between Kubernetes and OpenStack when they're side by side. So maybe confused the architectural discussion a little bit more but I think it's really trying to highlight that that assumption of running Kubernetes inside virtual machines isn't necessary. >> You used one of my favorite tools in your keynote. You used Venn diagrams because it is not a thing over here and a thing over here. There's overlap and there's decisions that you'll make, and lots of customers want a platform that will guide them down that path. And they also, oh wait, but I have this custom thing that I need to do. What's the biggest problem we have in IT, is it's not standardized and nothing ever gets thrown away. It's like I want to run my docker image on a z/VM in a mainframe. Oh, Walmart does that, but they also have an OpenStack deployment. So (laughs) you hear all of these discussions out there where it's like wait, is this, you know, (laughs) is this the main thing? Is this modified? What sits on what and where? So it's and, it seems to be, and there's a lot of choices. >> Absolutely, and I think one of the really, you know, one of the really interesting things when you're working in this space is you realize that customers are making really long-term strategic decisions appear. The example I used today was BBVA, and they realized that they needed to kind of keep up with a fast-changing market and they needed an internal platform to allow them to do that. And this is about them making a long-term decision about how they were going to build that platform into the, it's a really kind of long-term and basing their business on that and its future. So that's, it's kind of humbling in terms of having that responsibility of making that work. >> Yeah, Tim, maybe we can get your comments on the ecosystem. We sure have watched three years ago when we were here HP had a big army coming in here as to they doing their distribution. Well, HP's a hardware, HPE, I should say as they are now (laughs) is a hardware partner. Red Hat works across all of the traditional infrastructure companies. This ecosystem changed. Red Hat has a broad ecosystem. What are you seeing out there? What do you get from the partners that they're asking, and how does that play? >> Yeah, I think this really, again, mirrors our approach to Red Hat Enterprise Linux. And so if you look at all the different dimensions of compute, network, and storage, we have ecosystem partners in all of those. So we have the likes for storage, we have NetApp, EMC, IBM, many others. We have backup vendors like Trilio in on that. On the network front we have Cisco, Juniper, many others. We have ecosystem partners of all the major hardware OEMs. We have ecosystem partners in Innovee and Telco, all those spaces. So I think what really is the main driver of Red Hat Enterprise Linux is the ecosystem. It's not really the kernel anymore. It's like how do you run a consistent platform across multiple footprints? And that's what Red Hat is trying to provide because today I see there is a risk of vendor lock, and just like back in the day it was mainframe, right? Try to get everything from the lowest layer to the top layer on one platform. Many of the public cloud vendors are trying to be that one-stop shop, almost analogous to the mainframe. And what we're trying to do just like we did before for his ecosystem is to provide through leveraging the power of open source a platform that people can run, a hybrid platform that they can accelerate their business not only on all the different public clouds but also on-premise as well. >> It's interesting, last week of course big announcement with Red Hat is Microsoft's up on stage. It was like cats and dogs living together. Year before, Amazon you had a big announcement with. With Kubernetes and so many of these different tools, yes, there's that vertical integration but most of the companies understand that they're going to be in a customer environment and other people are. There's no longer, it's oh, IBM of 50 years ago where I'm going to be full in on that chop. >> Right, and I see Kubernetes is also, it's a huge open source project. So this is the difference between upstream and productization. It's what Red Hat does, is we do our maintenance, our support, our hardening, creation of this ecosystem, long life cycle support. The same thing's going to happen in Kubernetes where it's you don't just grab it upstream and run with whatever happens to be in it. And I think that there's a lot of companies that are claiming that just that Kubernetes is ubiquitous. And it's like the community innovation is ubiquitous and we're all in for advancing that. But it's really, if you're going to bet your business you want something that's productized and hardened by a contributor that you can trust. >> Well Tim, I want to connect that back with some of the other stuff that we've talked about on stage today. RHEL, super solid, history of engineering. The lower levels of your Stack need to be solid because you depend (laughs) on them. We talked a little bit about, on stage, about upgrades and things like that and how people are moving forward, the release schedule. I don't know, Mark, how are you approaching both upgrades and automation with Ansible? But other, OpenStack has other components too. How are you approaching that in the OpenStack day two to day 1000 scenario? >> Well absolutely, great question because today we've just announced our upcoming Red Hat OpenStack Platform 13 release, and that's our long life cycle release. So our last long life cycle release was version 10, and we've had a couple of shorter life versions in between. But when it comes to the upstream community what's supported in terms of upgrade is between those individual versions. When we came out with version 13, with this long life version, we have to support seamless upgrades between 10 and 13 in place without disrupting workloads that are running in your environment and make it completely smooth and seamless. And we're doing that with a feature called fast forward upgrades which is completely automated with Ansible. So that's been a big part of our focus with our engineering investment for open-- >> Ansible came up a couple of times on stage both with Zuul and also with the fast forward upgrades and it might have slipped in there a couple more times. It seems like Ansible is a big part of even this community. >> No, we're very happy with Ansible and it's a really powerful tool when it comes to automation. Got an amazing community around us. Kind of real, it's been a kind of an organic growth and we've been really happy with the team since they've joined Red Hat. It's a great foundation for everything we're doing. >> And Ansible's not just a foundation with an OpenStack. It's, for example, we have Ceph integration in with Ansible. We have OpenShift is how we deploy it using Ansible. It's how we're using NREL to what we call System Roles to be able to make it easier to upgrade from one to the other. So by combining a single technology it's making it easier for us to put together an integrated portfolio. >> Great, Tim, when people leave this show what are some of the key messages you want to make sure that they've heard from Red Hat as part of this community? >> I would say that it's Red Hat is bringing an integrated portfolio Stack because it's not just about components. It's really about how can you build, develop, and deploy applications rapidly and what's the most enterprise-ready dynamic environment that enables you to do that, and that's what we think that the power of Red Hat through its credibility in the open source community to bring all of those pieces of the Stack together from top to bottom. >> Stu: All right, and Mark, we'll give you the final word. >> Yeah, I'd actually reach for what we're reinforcing a lot on this summit. We're talking about innovate, empower, and accelerate, and that's really about these businesses that are our customers who are dealing with the challenge of trying to keep up with a rapidly changing market. And they need to innovate more. They need to move faster, need to accelerate. But they also need to empower their own application developers to do that innovation, to really kind of keep pace with the market. >> All right, well Tim Burke, Mark McLoughlin, thanks so much for all of the updates here. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Back with much more coverage here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music) (slow tones playing)