(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host for theCUBE. In this segment, we're going to be talking about Red Hat and the AWS evolving partnership. A great segment, really talking about how Hybrid and the Enterprise are evolving, certainly multicloud and the horizon. But a lot of benefits in the cloud, we've been covering on theCUBE and on SiliconANGLE with Red Hat for the past year. Very relevant. We've got Gunnar Hellekson, GM of Red Hat Enterprise Linux, And Joe Fernandes, VP and GM of the Hybrid Platforms, both of Red Hat. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> Thanks for having us John. >> So, you know, me, I'm a fan boy of Red Hat. So I always say, you guys made all the right investments, OpenShift, all these things that you guys made decisions years ago playing out beautifully. And I think, you know, with Amazon's re:Invent, you're seeing the themes all play out. Modern application stack, you're starting to see things at the top of the stack evolve, you've got 5G in the Edge, workloads being redefined and expanded on the cloud with Cloud Scale. So everything has been going down to Hybrid and Enterprise grade level discussions. This is in the Wheelhouse of Red Hat. So I want to congratulate you. But what's your reaction? What do you guys see this year at re:Invent? What's the top story? >> I can start. >> Who wants to start with first? >> Sure, I mean, clearly, AWS itself is huge. But as you mentioned, the world is Hybrid, right, so customers are running still in their data center, in the Amazon Public Cloud across multiple Public Clouds and out to the Edge and bring in more and more workloads. So it's not just the applications, analytics. It's AI, it's machine learning. And so, yeah, we can expect to see more discussion around that, more great examples of customer use cases. And as you mentioned, Red Hat has been right in the middle of this for some time John. >> You guys also had some success with the fully managed OpenShift service called ROSA, R-O-S-A, which is Red Hat OpenShift Service on AWS, another acronym, but really this is about what the customers are looking for. Can you take us through an update on OpenShift on AWS, because the combination of managed services in the cloud, refactoring applications, but working on-premises is a big deal. Take us through why that's so important. >> Yeah, so, we've had customers running OpenShift on AWS for a long time, right? So whether it's our software-based offerings where customers deploy OpenShift themselves, or our fully managed cloud service. We've had cloud services on AWS for over five years. What ROSA brings or Red Hat OpenShift on AWS is a jointly managed service, right? So we're working in partnership with Amazon, with AWS to make OpenShift available as a jointly-managed service offering. It's a native AWS service offering. You can get it right through the AWS console. You can leverage your AWS committed spend. But, most importantly, you know, it's something that we're working on together. Bringing new customers to the table for both Red Hat and AWS. And we're really excited about it because it's really helping customers accelerate their move to the public cloud and really helping them drive that Hybrid strategy that we talked about. >> Gunnar, you know what I want to get your thoughts on this, because one of the things that I love about this market right now is open-source continues to be amazing, continues to drive more value, and there's new migration of talent coming in. The numbers are just continuing to grow and grow. But the importance of Red Hat's history with AWS is pretty significant. I mean, Red Hat pioneered Open-source and it's been involved with AWS from the early days. Can you take us through a little bit of history for the folks that may not know Red Hat's partnership with AWS? >> Yeah. I mean, we've been collaborating with AWS since 2008. So for over a decade we've been working together, and what's made the partnership work is that we have a common interest in making sure that customers have a consistent approachable experience. Whether they're going on-premise or in the cloud. Nobody wants to have to go through an entire retraining and retooling exercise just to take advantage of all the great advantages of the cloud. And, so being able to use something like Red Hat Enterprise Linux as a consistent substrate on which you can build your application platforms is really attractive. So, that's where the partnership started. And since then we've had the ability to better integrate with native AWS services. And one thing I want to point out is that, a lot of these integrations are kind of technical. It's not just about technical consistency across these platforms, it's also about operational consistency and business concerns. And when you're moving into an Open Hybrid Cloud kind of a situation, that's what becomes important, right? You don't want to have two completely different tool sets on two completely different platforms. You want as much consistency as possible as you move from one to the other. And I think a lot of customers see value in that, both for the Red Hat Enterprise Linux side of the business, and also on the OpenShift side of the business. >> Well that's interesting. I'd love to get your both perspective on this whole Enterprise focus, because the Enterprise is, as you know, guys you've been there from the beginning, they have requirements. And there're sometimes, they're different by Enterprise. So as you see cloud, and I remember early days of Amazon, it's the 15th year of AWS, 10th year of re:Invent as a conference. I mean, that seems like a lifetime ago. But that's not, not too far ago where, you know, it was like, well, Amazon might not make it, its only for developers. Enterprisers do their own thing. Now it's like, it's all about the Enterprise. How are Enterprise customers evolving with you guys? Because they're all seeing the benefit of replatforming. But as they refactor, how has Red Hat evolved with that trend and how have you helped Amazon? >> Yeah, so as we mentioned, Enterprisers really across the globe are adopting a Hybrid Cloud Strategy. But, Hybrid actually isn't just about the infrastructure. So, its certainly the infrastructure where these Enterprisers are running these applications is increasingly becoming Hybrid as you move from data center to multiple public clouds and out to the Edge. But the Enterprisers application portfolios are also Hybrid, right? It's a Hybrid mix of very traditional monolithic and tier type applications. But also new cloud native services that have either been built from scratch, or as you mentioned, existing applications have been refactored. And then they're moving beyond the applications, as I mentioned to make better use of data. Also evolving their processes for how they build, deploy, and manage, leveraging, CI/CD and GitOps and so forth. So really for us it's, how do you help Enterprises bring all that together, right? Manage this Hybrid infrastructure that's supporting this Hybrid portfolio of applications that really help them evolve their processes. We've been working with Enterprises on these types of challenges for a long time. And we're now partnering with Amazon to do the same in terms of our joint product and service offerings. >> Talking about the RHEL evolution. I mean, because that's the bread and butter for Red Hat. It has been there for a long time. OpenShift again, making argument earlier, I mentioned the bets you guys made with Kubernetes, for instance, and it's all been made with all the right moves. So I love ROSA. You got me sold on that. RHEL though has been the tried and true steady workhorse. How has that evolved with workloads? >> Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think when customers were at the stage, when they were wondering, if well, can I use AWS to solve my problem, or should I use AWS to solve my problem? Our focus was largely on kind of technical enablement. Can we keep up with the pace of new hardware that Amazon is rolling up? Can we ensure that consistency with the on-premise and off-premise? And I think now we're starting to shift focus into really differentiating RHEL on the AWS platform. Again, integrating natively with AWS services, making it easier to operate in AWS. And a good example of this is using tools like Red Hat Insights, which we announced, I guess, about a year ago. Which is now included in every Red Hat Enterprise Linux subscription. Using tools like Insights in order to give customers advice on maybe potential problems that are coming up, helping customer solve them. Can the customers identify problems before they happen? Helping them with performance problems. And again, having additional tools like that, additional cloud-based tools, makes RHEL as easy to use on the Cloud despite all the complexity of all the redeploying, refactoring, microservices, there is now a proliferation of infrastructure options, and to the extent that RHEL can be the thing that is consistent, solid, reliable, secure, just as customers are getting in, then we can make customer successful. >> You know, Joe, we talked about this last time we were chatting, I think Red Hat Summit or Ansible Fest, I forget which event it was, but we were talking about how modern application developers at the top of the stack just want to code. They want to write some code, and now they want the infrastructure's code, AKA DevOps, DevSecOps, but as this trend of moving up the stack continues to be a big theme at re:Invent, that requires automation. That requires a lot of stuff that happened under the covers. Red Hat is at the center of all this action from historical perspective, pre-existing Enterprises before Cloud now, during Cloud, and soon to be Cloud Scale, how do you see that evolving? Because how are customers shaping their architecture? Cause this is distributed computing in the cloud. It's essentially, we've seen this moving before, but now at such a scale where data, security, these are all new elements. How do you talk about that? >> Yeah, well, first of all, got to mention, Linux is a given right. Linux is going to be available in every environment, data center, Public Cloud, Edge. Linux combined with Linux containers and Kubernetes, that's the abstraction like abstracting the applications away from the infrastructure. And now it's all about how do you build on top of that to bring that automation that you mentioned. So, we're very focused on helping customers really build fully automated end to end deployment pipelines, so they can build their applications more efficiently. They can automate the continuous integration and deployment of those applications into whatever Cloud or Edge footprint they choose. And that they can promote across environments. Because again, it's not just about developing the applications, it's about moving them all the way through to production where their customers are relying on those services to do their work and so forth. And so that's what we're doing is, you know, obviously I think, Linux is a given, Linux, Containers, Kubernetes. Those decisions have been made and now it's a matter of how can we put that together with the automation that allows them to accelerate those deployments out to production so customers can take advantage of them? >> You know, Gunnar, we were joking in theCUBE. I was old enough to remember we used to install Linux on a server back in the day. Now a lot of these young developers never actually have to install the software and do some of those configurations 'cause it's all automated now. Again, the commoditization and automation trend, abstraction layers, some say, is a good thing. So how do you see the evolution of this DevOps movement with the partnership with AWS going forward? What types of things are you working on with Amazon Web Services and what kind of offerings can customers look forward to? >> Yeah, sure. So, I mean, it used to be that as you say, Linux was something that you managed with a mouse and keyboard. And I think it's been quite a few years since any significant amount of Linux has been managed with a mouse and a keyboard. A lot of it is scripts, automation tools, configuration management tools, things like this. And the investments we've made both in RHEL and in specifically RHEL on AWS is around enabling RHEL to be more manageable. And so, including things like something we call System Roles. So these are Ansible modules that kind of automate routine system's administration tasks. We've made investments in something called Image Builder. And so this is a tool that allows customers to kind of compose the operating system that they need, create a blueprint for it, and then kind of stamp out the same image, whether it's an ISO image, so you can install it on-premise or an AMI so we can deploy it in AWS. So again, the problem used to be helping customers package and manage dependencies and that kind of old world, three and a half-inch floppy disc kind of Linux problems. And now we've evolved towards making Linux easier to deploy and manage at a grand scale whether you're in AWS or whether you're On premise. >> Joe, take us through the Hybrid story. I know obviously success with OpenShifts Managed Service on AWS. What's the update there for you? What are customers expecting this re:Invent and what's the story for you guys? >> Yeah, so, you know, the OpenShift Managed Services business this is the fastest growing segment of our business. We're seeing lots of new customers. And again, bringing new customers, I think for both Red Hat and AWS through this service. So, we expected to hear from customers at re:Invent about what they're doing. Again, not only with OpenShift and our Red Hat solutions, but really with what they're building on top of those service offerings, of those solutions to sort of bring more value to their customers. To me, that's always the best part of re:Invent is really hearing from customers. And when we all start going there in person again, to actually be able to meet with them one-on-one, whether it's in person or virtual and so forth. So, looking forward to that. >> Well, great to have you guys on theCUBE. Congratulations on all success. The Enterprise continues to adopt more and more Cloud which benefits all the work you guys have done both on the RHEL side, and as you guys modernize with all these great services and managed services continues to be the center of all the action. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Thanks John. >> Thank you. >> Okay, Red Hat's partnership with AWS evolving as Cloud scale Edge, all distributed computing, all happening at large scale. This is theCUBE with CUBE coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(smart gentle music) >> Hey, welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2021 virtual. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE, got two great guests here from AWS, Bob Wise, General Manager of Kubernetes for Amazon Web Services and Peder Ulander, Head of product marketing for the enterprise developer and open-source at AWS. Gentlemen, you guys are the core leaders in the AWS open-source initiatives. Thanks for joining us on theCUBE here for Red Hat Summit. >> Thanks for having us, John. >> Good to be here. >> So the innovation that's come from people building on top of the cloud has just been amazing. You guys, props to Amazon Web Services for constantly adding more and raising the bar on more services every year. You guys do that, and now public cloud has become so popular, and so important that now Hybrid has pushed the Edge. You got outpost with Amazon you see everyone following suit. It's pretty much clear vote of confidence from the customers that, Hybrid is the operating model of the future. And that really is about the Edge. So I want to chat with you about the open-source intersection there, so let's get into it. So we're here at Red Hat Summit. So Red Hat's an open-source company and timing is great for them. Now, part of IBM you guys have had a relationship with Red Hat for some time. Can you tell us about the partnership and how it's working together? >> Yeah, absolutely. Why don't I take that one? AWS and Red Hat have been strategic partners since, shoot, I think it's 2008 or so in the early days of AWS, when engaging with customers, we wanted to ensure that AWS was the best place for enterprises to run their Red Hat workloads. And this is super important when you think about, what Red Hat has accomplished with RHEL in the enterprise, it's running SAP, it's running Oracle's, it's running all different types of core business applications, as well as a lot of the new things that customers are innovating. And so having that relationship to ensure that not only did it work on AWS, but it actually scaled we had integration of services, we had the performance, the price all of the things that were so critical to customers was critical from day one. And we continue to evolve this relationship over time. As you see us coming into Red Hat Summit this year. >> Well, again, to the hard news here also the new service Red Hat OpenShift servers on AWS known as ROSA, the A for Amazon Red Hat OpenShift, A for Amazon Web Services, a clever acronym but really it's on AWS. What exactly is this service? What does it do? And who is it designed for? >> Well, I'll let me jump in on this one. Maybe let's start with the why? Why ROSA? Customers love using OpenShift, but they also want to use AWS. They want the best of both. So they want their peanut butter and their chocolate together in a single confection. A lot of those customers have deployed AWS, have deployed OpenShift on AWS. They want managed service simplified supply chain. We want to be able to streamline moving on premises, OpenShift workloads to AWS, naturally want good integration with AWS services. So as to the, what? Our new service jointly operated is supported by Red Hat and AWS to provide a fully managed to OpenShifts on AWS. So again, like lot of customers have been running OpenShift on AWS before this time, but of course they were managing it themselves typically. And so now they get a fully managed option with also simplified supply chain. Single support channels, single billing. >> You know, were talking before we came on camera about the acronym on AWS and people build on the clouds kind of like it's no big deal to say that, but I know it means something. I want to explain, you guys to explain this on because I know I've been scolded saying things on theCUBE that were kind of misspoken because it's easy to say, Oh yeah, I built that app. We built all this stuff on theCUBE was on AWS, but it's not on AWS. It means something from a designation standpoint what does on AWS mean? 'Cause this is OpenShift servers on AWS, we see this other companies have their products on AWS. This is specific designation. Can you share, please. >> John, when you see the branding of something like Red Hat on AWS, what that basically signals to our customers is that this is joint engineering work. This is the top of the strategic partners where we actually do a lot of joint engineering and work to make sure that we're driving the right integrations and the right experience, make sure that these things are accessible and discoverable in our console. They're treated effectively as a first-class service inside of the AWS ecosystem. So it's, there's not many of the on's, if you will. You think about SAP on VMware cloud, on AWS, and now Red Hat OpenShift on AWS, it really is that signal that helps give customers the confidence of tested, tried, trued, supported and validated service on top of AWS. And we think that's significantly better than anything else. It's easy to run an image on a VM and stuffed it into a cloud service to make it available, but customers want better, customer want tighter experiences. They want to be able to take advantage of all the great things that we have from a scale availability and performance perspective. And that's really what we're pushing towards. >> Yeah. I've seen examples specifically where when partners work with Amazon at that level of joint engineering, deeper partnerships. The results were pretty significant on the business side. So congratulations to you guys working with OpenShift and Red Hat, that's real testament to their product. But I got to ask you guys, pull the Amazon playbook out and challenge you guys, or just, create a new some commentary around the process of working backwards. Every time I talked to Andy Jassy, he always says, we work backwards from the customer and we get the requirements, and we're listening to customers. Okay, great. He loves that, he loves to say that it's true. I know that I've seen that. What is the customer work backwards document look like here? What is the, what was the need and what made this become such an important part of AWS? What was the, and then what are they saying now, now that the products out there? >> Well, OpenShift has a very wide footprint as does AWS. Some working backwards documents kind of write themselves, because now the customer demand is so strong that there's just no avoiding it. Now, it really just becomes about making sure you have a good plan so it becomes much more operational at that point. ROSA's definitely one of those services. We had so much demand and as a result, no surprise that we're getting a lot of enthusiasm for customers because so many of them asked us for it. (crosstalk) >> What's been the reaction in asking demand. That's kind of got the sense of that, but okay. So there's demand now, what's the what's the use cases? What are customers saying? What's the reaction been? >> Lot of the use cases are these Hybrid kind of use cases where a customer has a big OpenShift footprint. What we see from a lot of these customers is a strong demand for consistency in order to reduce IT sprawl. What they really want to do is have the smallest number of simplest environments they can. And so when customers that standardized on OpenShift really wants to be able to standardize OpenShifts, both in their on premises environment and on AWS and get managed service options just to remove the undifferentiated heavy lifting. >> Hey, what's your take on the product marketing side of this, where you got open-source becoming very enterprise specific, Red Hat's been there for a very long time. I've been user of Red Hat since the beginning and following them, and Linux, obviously is Linux where that's come from. But what features specifically jump out in this offering that customers are resonating around? What's the vibe here? >> John, you kind of alluded to it early on, which is I don't know that I'd necessarily call it Hybrid but the reality is our customers have environments that are on premises in the cloud and all the way out to the Edge. Today, when you think of a lot of solutions and services, it's a fractured experience that they have between those three locations. And one of our biggest commitments to our customers, just to make things super simple, remove the complexity do all of the hard work, which means, customers are looking for a consistent experience environment and tooling that spans data center to cloud, to Edge. And that's probably the biggest kind of core asset here for customers who might have standardized on OpenShift in the data centers. They come to the cloud, they want to continue to leverage those skills. I think probably one of the, an interesting one is we headed down in this path, we all know Delta Airlines. Delta is a great example of a customer who, joint customer, who have been doing stuff inside of AWS for a long time. They've been standardizing on Red Hat for a long time and bringing this together just gave them that simple extension to take their investment in Red Hat OpenShift and leverage their experience. And again, the scale and performance of what AWS brings them. >> Next question, what's next for a Red Hat OpenShift on AWS in your work with Red Hat. Where does this go next? What's the big to-do item, what do you guys see as the vision? >> I'm glad you mentioned open-source collaboration at the start there. We're taking to point out is that AWS works on the Kubernetes project upstream as does the Red Hat teams. So one of the ways that we collaborate with the Red Hat team is in open-source. One of those projects is on a new project called ACK. It was on controllers for Kubernetes and this is a kind of Kubernetes friendly way for my customers to use an API to manage AWS services. So that's one of the things that we're looking forward to as that goes GA wobbling out into both ROSA and onto our other services. >> Awesome. I got to ask you guys this while you're here, because it's very rare to get two luminaries within AWS on the open-source side. This has been a huge build-out over the many, many years for AWS, and some people really kind of don't understand kind of the position. So take a minute to clarify the position of AWS on open-source. You guys are very active in a lot of projects. You mentioned upstream with Kubernetes in other areas. I've had many countries with Adrian Cockcroft on this, as well as others within AWS. Huge proponents web services, I mean, you go back to the original Amazon. I mean, Jeff Barr was saying 15 years ago some of those API's are still in play here. API's back in 15 years ago, that was kind of not main stream at that time. So you had open standards, really made Amazon web services successful and you guys are continuing it but as the modern era is very enterprise, like and you see a lot of legacy, you seeing a lot more operations that they're going to be driven by open technologies that you guys are investing in. I'll take a minute to explain what AWS is doing and what you guys care about and your mission? >> Yeah. Well, why don't I start? And then we'll kick it over to Bob 'cause I think Bob can also talk about some of the key contribution sides, but the best way to think about it is kind of in three different pillars. So let's start with the first one, which is, around the fact of ensuring that our customer's favorite open-source projects run best on AWS. Since 2006, we've been helping our customers operationalize their open-source investments and really kind of achieve that scale and focus more on how they use and innovate on the products versus how they set up and run. And for myself being an open-source since the late 90s, the biggest opportunity, yet challenge was the access to the technology, but it still required you as a customer to learn how to set up, configure, operationalized support and sustain. AWS removes that heavy lifting and, again, back to that earlier point from the beginning of AWS, we helped customers scale and implement their Apache services, their database services, all of these different types of open-source projects to make them really work exceptionally well on AWS. And back to that point, make sure that AWS was the best place for their open-source projects. I think the second thing that we do, and you're seeing that today with what we're doing with ROSA and Red Hat is we partner with open-source leaders from Red Hat to Redis and Confluent to a number of different players out there, Grafana, and Prometheus, to even foundations like the LF and the CNCF. We partner with these leaders to ensure that we're working together to grow grow the overall experience and the overall the overall pie, if you will. And this kind of gets into that point you were making John in that, the old world legacy proprietary stuff, there's a huge chance for refresh and new opportunity and rethinking or modernization if you will, as you come into the cloud having the expertise and the partnerships with these key players is as enterprises move in, is so crucial. And then the third piece I'd like to talk about that's important to our open-source strategies is really around contribution. We have a number of projects that we've delivered ourselves. I think the two most recent ones that really come top of mind for me is, what we did with Babel Fish, as well as with OpenSearch. So contributing and driving a true open-source project that helps our customers, take advantage of things like an SQL, a proprietary to open-source SQL conversion tool, or what we're doing to make Elasticsearch, the opportune or the primary open platform for our customers. But it's not just about those services, it's also collaborating with key industry initiatives. Bob's at the forefront of that with what we're doing with the CNCF around things, like Kubernetes and Prometheus et cetera, Bob you want to jump in on some of that? >> Sure, I think the one thing I would add here is that customers love using those open-source projects. The one of the challenges with them frequently is security. And this is job zero to AWS. So a lot of the collaboration work we do, a lot of the work that we do on upstream projects is go specifically around kind of security oriented things because that is what customers expect when they come to get a managed service at AWS. Some of those efforts are somewhat unsung because you generally do more work and less talk, in security oriented things. But projects across AWS, that's always a key contribution focus for us. >> Good way to call out security too. I think that's being built-in to the everything now, that's an operating model. People call it shift-left day two operations. Whatever you want to look at it. You got this nice formation going between under the hood kind of programmability of the infrastructure at scale. And then you have the modern application development which is just beginning, programmable DevSecOps. It's funny, Bob, I'd love to get your take on this because I remember in the 80s and during the Unix generation I used to peddle software under the table. Like, here's a copy of, you just don't tell anyone, people in the younger generation don't get the fact that it wasn't always open. And so now you have open and you have this idea of an enterprise that's going to be a system management system view. So you got engineering and you got computer science kind of coming together, this SRE middle layer. You're hearing that as a, kind of a new discipline. So DevOps kind of has won. I mean, we kind of knew this for many, many years. I said this in 2013 on theCUBE actually at re-inventing. I just recently shared that clip. But okay, now you've got SecOps, DevSecOps. So now you have an era where it's a system thinking and open-source is driving all of that. So can you share your perspective because this is kind of where the puck is going. It's an open to open world. That's going to have to be open and scalable. How does open-source and you guys take it to the next level to give that same scale and reliability? What's your vision? >> The key here is really around automation and what we're seeing you could look at Kubernetes. Kubernetes, is essentially a robot. It was like the early design of it was built around robotics principles. So it's a giant software robot and the world has changed. If you just look at the influx of all kinds of automation to not just the DevOps world but to all industries, you see a similar kind of trend. And so the world of IT operations person is changing from doing the work that the robot did and replacing it with the robot to managing large numbers of robots. And in this case, the robots are like a little early and a little hard to talk to. And so, you end up using languages like YAML and other things, but it turns out robots still just do what you tell them to do. And so one of the things you have to do is be really, really careful because robots will go and do whatever it is you ask them to do. On the other hand, they're really, really good at doing that. So in the security area, they take the research points to the largest single source of security issues, being people making manual mistakes. And a lot of people are still a little bit terrified if human beings aren't touching things on the way to production. In AWS, we're terrified if humans aren't touching it. And that is a super hard chasm to cross and open-source projects have really, are really playing a big role in what's really a IT wide migration to a whole new set of, not just tools, but organizational approaches. >> What's your reaction to that? Because we're talking that essentially software concepts, because if you write bad code, the code will execute what you did. So assuming it compiles left in the old days. Now, if you're going to scale a large scale operations that has dynamic capabilities, services being initiated in terminating tear down up started, you need the automation, but if you really don't design it right, you could be screwed. This is a huge deal. >> This is one reason why we've put so much effort into getops that you can think of it as a more narrowly defined subset of the DevOps world with a specific set of principles around using kind of simplified declarative approaches, along with robots that converge the desired state, converge the system to the desired state. And when you get into large distributed systems, you end up needing to take those kinds of approaches to get it to work at scale. Otherwise you have problems. >> Yeah, just adding to that. And it's funny, you said DevOps has won. I actually think DevOps has won, but DevOps hasn't changed (indistinct) Bob, you were right, the reality is it was founded back what quite a while ago, it was more around CICD in the enterprise and the closed data center. And it was one of those where automation and runbooks took addressed the fact that, every pair of hands between service requests and service delivery recreated or created an issue. So that growth and that mental model of moving from a waterfall, agile to DevOps, you built it, you run it, type of a model, I think is really, really important. But as it comes out into the cloud, you no longer have those controls of the data center and you actually have infinite scale. So back to your point of you got to get this right. You have to architect correctly you have to make sure that your code is good, you have to make sure that you have full visibility. This is where it gets really interesting at AWS. And some of the things that we're tying in. So whether we're talking about getops like what Bob just went through, or what you brought up with DevSecOps, you also have things like, AIOps. And so looking at how we take our machine learning tools to really implement the appropriate types of code reviews to assessing your infrastructure or your choices against well-architected principles and providing automated remediation is key, adding to that is observability, developers, especially in a highly distributed environment need to have better understanding, fidelity and touchpoints of what's going on with our application as it runs in production. And so what we do with regards to the work we have in observability around Grafana and Prometheus projects only accelerate that co-whole concept of continuous monitoring and continuous observability, and then kind of really, adding to that, I think it was last month, we introduce our fault injection simulator, a chaos engineering tool that, again takes advantage of all of this automation and machine learning to really help our developers, our customers operate at scale. And make sure that when they are releasing code, they're releasing code that is not just great in a small sense, it works on my laptop, but it works great in a highly distributed massively scaled environment around the globe. >> You know, this is one of the things that impresses me about Red Hat this year. And I've said this before all the covers events I've covered with them is that they get the cloud scale piece and I think their relationship with you guys shows that I think, DevOps has won, but it's the gift that keeps giving in open-source because what you have here is no longer a conversation about the cloud moving to the cloud. It's the cloud has become the operating model. So the conversation shifts to much more complicated enterprise or, and or intelligent Edge, and whether it's industrial or human or whatever, you got a data problem. So that's about a programmability issue at scale. So what's interesting is that Red Hat is on those bandwagon. It's an operating system. I mean, basically it's a distributed computing paradigm, essentially ala AWS concept as a cloud. Now it goes to the Edge, it's just distributed services via an open-source. So what's your reaction to that? >> Yeah, it's back to the original point, John where I said, any CIO is thinking about their IT environment from data center to cloud, to Edge and the more consistency automation and, kind of tools that they're at their disposal to enable them to create that kind of, I think you started to talk about an infrastructure the whole as code infrastructure's code, it's now, almost everything is code. And that starts with the operating system, obviously. And that's why this is so critical that we're partnering with companies like Red Hat on our vision and their vision, because they aligned to where our customers were ultimately going. Bob, you want to, you want to add to that? >> Bob: No, I think you said it. >> John: You guys are crushing it. Bob, one quick question for you, while I got you here. You mentioned getops, I've heard this before, I kind of understand it. Can you just quickly define from your perspective. What is getops? >> Sure, well, getops is really taking the, I said before it's a kind of narrowed version of DevOps. Sure, it's infrastructure is code. Sure, you're doing things incrementally but the getops principle, it's back to like, what are the good, what are the best practices we are managing large numbers, large numbers of robots. And in this case, it's around this idea of declarative intent. So instead of having systems that reach into production and change things, what you do is you set up the defined declared state of the system that you want and then leave the robots to constantly work to converge the state there. That seems kind of nebulous. Let me give you like a really concrete example from Kubernetes, by the way the entire Kubernetes system design is based on this. You say, I want five pods running in production and that's running my application. So what Kubernetes does is it sits there and it constantly checks, Oh, I'm supposed to have five pods. Do I have five? Well, what happens if the machine running one of those pods goes away. Now, suddenly it goes and checks and says, Oh, I'm supposed to have five pods, but there's four pods. What action do I take to now try to get the system back to the state. So you don't have a system running, reaching out and checking externally to Kubernetes, you let Kubernetes do the heavy lifting there. And so it goes through, goes through a loop of, Oh, I need to start a new pod and then it converges the system state back to running five pods. So it's really taking that kind of declarative intent combined with constant convergence loops to fully production at scale. >> That's awesome. Well, we do a whole segment on state and stateless future, but we don't have time. I do want to summarize real quick. We're here at the Red Hat Summit 2021. You got Red Hat OpenShift on AWS. The big news, Bob and Peder tell us quickly in summary, why AWS? Why Red Hat? Why better together? Give the quick overview, Bob, we'll start with you. >> Bob, you want to kick us off? >> I'm going to repeat peanut butter and chocolate. Customers love OpenShift, they love managed services. They want a simplified operations, simplified supply chain. So you get the best of both worlds. You get the OpenShift that you want fully managed on AWS, where you get all of the security and scale. Yeah, I can't add much to that. Other than saying, Red Hat is powerhouse obviously on data centers it is the operating system of the data center. Bringing together the best in the cloud, with the best in the data center is such a huge benefit to our customers. Because back to your point, John, our customers are thinking about what are they doing from data center to cloud, to Edge and bringing the best of those pieces together in a seamless solution is so, so critical. And that that's why AW. (indistinct) >> Thanks for coming on, I really appreciate it. I just want to give you guys a plug for you and being humble, but you've worked in the CNCF and standards bodies has been well, well known and I'm getting the word out. Congratulations for the commitment to open-source. Really appreciate the community. Thanks you, thank you for your time. >> Thanks, John. >> Okay, Cube coverage here, covering Red Hat Summit 2021. I'm John Ferry, host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (smart gentle music)

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Red Hat Summit 2021 virtual. I'm John furrier, host of theCUBE We've got a great segment with a customer Roberto Calandrini, Head of Architecture, Digital and AI services for Snam customer need to leak oil and gas and AI services for Snam customer need to leak oil and gas great industrial IOT and digital transformation. Roberto, thank you for coming on the cube and spending the time. >> Hi, John. Good to see you. Thank you for inviting me. >> That's awesome. Before we get started, I love the story and again I think security edge and in, in in disease industry for disruptions is huge story here. But before we get started, talk about Snam. Give me a quick overview of Snam, who you guys are. What's your focus customers you have and your role there. >> Of course. So it was not is one of the major global energy infrastructure company and is managing a international and a national asset specifically and a national asset specifically in the natural gas utility segment. There's what the story Kelly Snam did. And it recently positioned itself as a leader of the energy transition, investing a lot in startups of the energy transition, investing a lot in startups mostly focused on, for example, H2 so hydrogen, these the very recent topic, bio Nathan with numb for environment sustainable mobility, energy efficiency, and reforestation. So we kind of So we kind of expanded our core businesses in terms of positioning ourselves much more within the energy transition segments and still developing a lot, what we used to do in the natural gas, in the natural gas industry. And my role there is, as you said, Head of Architecture And my role there is, as you said, Head of Architecture Digital and AI Services. So I'm basically responsible for managing the entire technology stack of Snam and focusing a lot on developing artificial intelligence services for our business lines. >> That's awesome. Well, thanks for sharing that. Let's talk about the digital transmission you've been rearchitecting. You guys redesign your applications map impacting your architecture from the data center to the edge recently, even the center of that your responsibility for the business. What were the business drivers and objectives for you to reach that transformation goal and target? >> Yeah, thanks for, for the question. So they basically, we were mainly interested in exploiting three main three main objectives with our transformation. The first was very much related to our business strategy. So having a more agile So having a more agile and flexible digital architecture that will still on one one end provide us with the reliability that we need in order to sustain our business critical application. And on the other end, provide the agility And on the other end, provide the agility and flexibility the speed in some sense that our new business line will lead in order to succeed. So let's say speed and agility. The second one was a focus on platformization and servitization of our industry specific application. So what we used to develop, as So what we used to develop, as let's say, very focused full stack application now, thanks to the modern architectures can be developed on top of platforms or using microservices. on top of platforms or using microservices. And that will apart from providing us agility And that will apart from providing us agility and flexibility will give us more alignment will give us more alignment between what we invest. So the cost of our software development efforts So the cost of our software development efforts and the business value we derive and the business value we derive from the software we produce basically. >> John: Can I... >> So I focus on value. >> Can I ask you real quick on the business drivers? Can you talk about the impact of domain expertise? One of the trends we're seeing is you want to scale of cloud and having an architecture that's going to enable value creation and customer value for your customers but in these vertical disruptions these new opportunities in these industries like you're a very specialized industry get natural gas and you still need that domain expertise if you want to tap in and advantage of the AI. >> Absolutely. >> Can you share your vision on how you're doing that and how that relates to the business driver? >> Yeah. So let's say that this is very, very aligned with >> Yeah. So let's say that this is very, very aligned with with our strategy that focuses with our strategy that focuses on platformization servitization. So if you think So if you think about how we can explore the best, the value of our people so our industry specific expertise, there are two main ways. The first is to build from scratch as we used to do The first is to build from scratch as we used to do in the past full stack applications that are really focused on a specific, this specific need of a business line. And so focused on the business side of the industry or we can leverage modern architecture and develop services that serve that specific need. and develop services that serve that specific need. So this will let us basically being able to So this will let us basically being able to So this will let us basically being able to satisfy our internal customer. So our internal clients and the business need and at the same time, being able to use that software so that service for an external customer or potential potentially for, for our peers. So in order to provide value exploiting our business expertise, in order to, for example you cited AI using what we developed as an AI system, for example, for two in order to solve demand for customer problems and provide that same business value for, for for other companies that are are they share our same business need. >> Yeah. It's a data workload. I mean, it's at the end of the day you need the data >> Exactly. >> and that's going to come back. I want to unpack the data workload when we talk about the edge, but real quick, I want to talk about the role red hat played in your journey to execute your architecture and transformation. Can you share how Red Hat helped you in this? >> Sure. So let's say that, you know, >> Sure. So let's say that, you know, it all began in two, 2018. it all began in two, 2018. When we started to set up our cloud readiness map When we started to set up our cloud readiness map in order to assess what we will, we'll be able to transform. in order to assess what we will, we'll be able to transform. So scale lift and shift or refactor of of our application map into a modern architecture application. into a modern architecture application. So this cloud readiness journey started So this cloud readiness journey started with assessing the level of modularity with assessing the level of modularity with assessing the level of modularity in some way of some of our main applications. And what we started to do is to develop the first blueprints in order to start to develop new system in order to start to develop new system and new application on a cloud native framework and new application on a cloud native framework and Red Hat really Apple with this but providing a container orchestration platform OpenShift on which we started to build up our new, our new application, that up our new, our new application, that so the cloud native application by application map so the cloud native application by application map then in 2019, we started to accelerate this then in 2019, we started to accelerate this let's say moving to a CNA environment journey. let's say moving to a CNA environment journey. let's say moving to a CNA environment journey. And we started to move the first 10 to 20% And we started to move the first 10 to 20% of our workload on the platform as a service environment. of our workload on the platform as a service environment. So an OpenShift and this is something that we are still doing while at the same time, developing different project at the same time, developing different project that tries to turn what we used to have developed that tries to turn what we used to have developed as custom application toward platforms. as custom application toward platforms. So we are basically transforming our application map leveraging the power for what regards to the customer application of modern architectures. So microservices bays So microservices bays and the container orchestration platform provided by Red Hat OpenShift. And at the same time the other main technological driver is platform migration. the other main technological driver is platform migration. So with basically trying to leverage, especially for the processes that are already very standardized. for the processes that are already very standardized. So usually corporate processes. So staff SEF function processes what we're doing there is to build on top of very what we're doing there is to build on top of very let's say industry standard platform. I don't want to, to provide you with names but you can imagine most but you can imagine most of them are software as a service platforms. And this is really happiness because we are as a target. And this is really happiness because we are as a target. We are, we have as, as a target for 2022 to basically have the number for 2022 to basically have the number of application with respect to the number of application our application map of 2018. our application map of 2018. >> So big, big step increase in applications. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah >> That's great. That's cool. And then the ecosystem of energy efficiency and aiming for lower carbon emissions that's a goal you guys are helping with. How is Red Hat helping in the ecosystem in your ecosystem? Do you see them going above and beyond? >> You know, the, for what regards to new business lines? I think that the container orchestration platform I think that the container orchestration platform so OpenShift would provide us with the right level so OpenShift would provide us with the right level of flexibility and agility to move of flexibility and agility to move at the speed of those businesses. That is quite different with respect to our classical ones and frequently needs a much higher speed of development. and frequently needs a much higher speed of development. >> Yeah. Awesome. Well, that's great. Great to see that success with Red Hat let's let's shift gears to the topic of the edge. >> Yeah We've been reporting on Silicon angle industrial edge for many years now. And we were calling out the security potential there as risky, obviously it's, it's it's industrial there's you also got generic edge which is consumer edge and everything in between the edge is just part of the network. And you think about this, this is important for you are what are you doing for you are what are you doing with the edge and IOT from a use case standpoint? What have you already done? And what are you planning to deploy soon? Take us through your, your edge IOT use case how it is today and how you see it tomorrow. >> So let's say that Snam has long OT history that basically started that Snam has long OT history that basically started at the very beginning of our SCADA system. So what we have right now is quite complex Brown So what we have right fields situation for what regards edges and gateways fields situation for what regards edges and gateways fields situation for what regards edges and gateways and technical component that resides on, on the field. and technical component that resides on, on the field. So you can, you, you, you must consider that the Italian network is for the modern that the Italian network is for the modern modern 34,000 kilometers and modern 34,000 kilometers and as many different plants, small, medium, and as many different plants, small, medium, and and large plants spread across the country. and large plants spread across the country. And what we are trying to do leveraging also Red Hat technologies among with Red Hat technologies among with with others is trying to get the benefit with others is trying to get the benefit of containers and microservice development. So the benefit coming from cloud native application and getting those to the edge. from cloud native application and getting those to the edge. So the usual problem So the usual problem with OT as historically been a standardization with OT as historically been a standardization so a very heterogeneous number of components Virginia's protocols of components Virginia's protocols in order for them to communicate with the charters and relatively low level of security. with the charters and relatively low level of security. This is, this was mainly due to the segregation principle This is, this was mainly due to the segregation principle physical segregation principle that used to physical segregation principle that used to dominate the OT field with IOT. Of course, as you were saying we are terrifically expanding the attack surface we are terrifically expanding the attack surface from the cybersecurity standpoint, but at the same time that is mainly why we are approaching that is mainly why we are approaching in a very structural way. Our technology stack implementation including security by design in all our architectural blueprints and implementation. And we strongly believe that pushing the capability And we strongly believe that pushing the capability of container orchestration and containerization to the edge and being able to orchestrate that from the cloud or from our data centers will provide us with a very high level of high-quality and flexibility and the capability to exploited best the geographical distribution of the data. to exploited best the geographical distribution of the data. You know, you were saying a center point will be You know, you were saying a center point will be was soaked around data, and it is correct, but it in our specific case, our data basically came from points in our specific case, our data basically came from points in our specific case, our data basically came from points as I was saying, spread it all across the country. So having different data, gravity points enabled So having different data, gravity points enabled by container rise and centrally orchestrated by container rise and centrally orchestrated by container rise and centrally orchestrated environments will enable us to get the best also environments will enable us to get the best also in terms of, from the cybersecurity perspective because what will be acquired on the centralized environment is only exclusively on the centralized environment is only exclusively what is needed at the centralized environment. what is needed at the centralized environment. All the rest on our target architecture will be entirely elaborated on the field, very close to where the data physically on the field, very close to where the data physically and this will be excludable exclusively enabled by by a containerized approach. >> That's awesome. Great, great. A use case there, Roberto, what's next A use case there, Roberto, what's next for your future plans and your technology journey? Obviously AI is going to be very important and data and leveraging that you've got the core cloud data center edge perspective. >> Yeah, of course. Yeah. What, what, what's next? >> What's your future? Let's say, let's say that what we currently implemented is Let's say, let's say that what we currently implemented is and in average cloud environment so we basically have two data center and one cloud tenant, our infrastructure due to, again and one cloud tenant, our infrastructure due to, again and one cloud tenant, our infrastructure due to, again the use of OpenShifts will be easily extensible the use of OpenShifts will be easily extensible the use of OpenShifts will be easily extensible to other potentially to other cloud providers. So we will move, we're evaluating the move to a multicloud So we will move, we're evaluating the move to a multicloud a hybrid multicloud environment. At the same time our main focus right now is to close our IOT foundation. our main focus right now is to close our IOT foundation. And within the IOT foundation I think the main focus right now is on gateways and edges. I think the main focus right now is on gateways and edges. As you were saying, these are quite complex components As you were saying, these are quite complex components and must be greatly evaluated, especially from the cybersecurity standpoint and last from the cybersecurity standpoint and last but not least the data we need to. but not least the data we need to we started our data platform journey and we currently are acquiring data from legacy systems and we currently are acquiring data from legacy systems different kinds of legacy system and SCADA system. What we would like to reach is a complete IOT What we would like to reach is a complete IOT What we would like to reach is a complete IOT acquisition system that will be directly connected to our components, acquiring data on the field. Right now we are in, let's say Right now we are in, let's say in the middle of this digital transformation and we are hemming to close our and we are hemming to close our our journey in the next couple of years. >> That's great, Roberto, great story. Love the conversation. First of all, I love your title Head of Architecture, Digital AI Services. I mean, that speaks to this modern error of, of, of cloud distributed computing. You hit all the hit, all the key things, right? It's an architectural system distributed system. It's a digital business. Now, even though there's physical assets offline, online coming together in a modern way and AI really speaks to the underlying data which is combination of many, many things, you know you're you get all the action there. >> Roberto: Yeah! >> How do you feel? What's your advice to other people in the same boat you're in? >> No, I, I think that, that the interesting part of what we do that the interesting part of what we do at least in, in my specific area, and this is what digital at least in, in my specific area, and this is what digital or sustained for is digital service design. This is something new that is quite uncommon within the utility sector. And it is basically a group of people that apart And it is basically a group of people that apart from being technologists focus a lot on the interaction from being technologists focus a lot on the interaction design of what we are or what we are trying to build design of what we are or what we are trying to build in terms of the technology stack. So these are people that basically try to make the very So these are people that basically try to make the very complex technology stack we talk about in our interview much more simple the, to the final user and think about the level of interaction, complexity about the level of interaction, complexity that all our user will have with our technology stack. Especially when we talk about IOT now, and you start to interact, not just with digital systems, but also with digital or physical systems. with digital or physical systems. So yes, we, we, we have a lot on our plate >> It reminds me of the late eighties, early nineties when open standards really hit the scene and then incubated and then accelerated was seeing that same dynamic happening now with cloud. And you're a pioneer and really appreciate you taking the time to come on The Cube and speak with me about this and share your story. And more importantly than Red Hat success there. 'cause it's Red Hat summit, a story here, Roberto. Thank you very much for sharing your insights and experiences. >> Thank you for your time, John. This has been a pleasure. >> Really appreciate it. Okay. That's Red Hat CUBE coverage here with theCUBE. I'm John furrier. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of AWS re:Invent 2020. Sponsored by intel, AWS, and our community partners. >> Welcome back to the CUBE's coverage of the AWS re:Invent 2020. Three weeks we're here, covering re:Invent. It's virtual. We're not in person. Normally we are on the floor. Instructing *signal from the noise, but we're virtual. This is theCUBE Virtual. We are theCUBE Virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host. Got a great interview here today. Sathish Balakrishnan, Vice president of hosted platforms for Red Hat joining us. Sathish, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. Great to see you again. >> I wish we were in person, but we're remote because of the pandemic. But it's going to be a lot of action going on, a lot of content. Red Hat's relationship with AWS, and this is a really big story this year, at many levels. One is your relationship with Red Hat, but also the world's evolved. Clearly hybrid cloud's in play. Now you got multiple environments with the edge and other clouds around the corner. This is a huge deal. Hybrids validated multiple environments, including the edge. This is big. On premise in the cloud. What's your new update for your relationship? >> Absolutely, John, yeah. this is so you know, if anything this year has accelerated digital transformation, right The joke that COVID-19 is the biggest digital accelerator, digital transformation accelerator is no joke. I think going back to our relationship with AWS, as you rightly pointed out, we have a very storied and long relationship with AWS, we've been with AWS partnering with AWS since 2007, when we offered the Red Hat Enterprise Linux on AWS since then, you know, we've made a lot of strides, but not in the middle of our products that are layered on AWS, as well as back in 2015, we offered OpenShift dedicated Red Hat OpenShift dedicated, which is our managed offering on AWS, you know, and since then we made a bunch of announcements right around the service broker, and then you know, the operators operator hub, and the operators that AWS has for services to be accessed from Kubernetes. As well as you know, the new exciting joint service that we announced. So you know, by AWS and Red Hat, increasingly, right, our leaders in public cloud and hybrid cloud and are approached by IT decision makers who are looking for guidance or on changing requirements, and they know how they should be doing application development in a very containerized and hybrid cloud world. So you know, excited to be here. And and this is a great event, you know, three week event, but you know, usually we were in Las Vegas, but you know, this week, this year, we will do it on workshop. But you know, nevertheless, the same excitement. And you know, I'm sure there's going to be same set of announcements that are going to come out of this event as well. >> Yeah, we'll keep track of it. Because it's digital. I think it's going to be a whole another user experience personally on the Discovery sites Learning Conference. But that's great stuff. I want to dig into the news, cause I think the relevant story here that you just talked about, I want to dig into the announcement, the new offering that you have with AWS, it's a joint offering, I believe, can you take a minute to explain what was and what's discussed? Cause you guys announced some stuff in May. Now you have OpenShift services. Is it on AWS? Can you take a minute to explain the news here? >> Absolutely John yeah. So I think we had really big announcement in May, you know, the first joint offering with AWS and it is Red Hat open shift service on AWS, it's a joint service with Red Hat and AWS, we're very excited to partner with them, and you know, be on the AWS console. And you know, it's great to be working with AWS engineering team, we've been making a lot of really good strides, it just amplify, as you know, our managed services story. So we are very excited to have that new offering that's going to be completely integrated with AWS console transacted through you know AWS marketplace, but you know, customers will get all the benefit of AWS service, like you know, how just launch it off the console, basically get, you know there and be part of the enterprise discount program and you we're very really excited and you know, that kind of interest has been really, really amazing. So we just announced that, you know, it's in preview we have a lot of customers already in preview, and we have a long list of customers that are waiting to get on this program. So but this offering, right, we have three ways in which you can consume OpenShift on AWS. One is, as I mentioned previously OpenShift dedicated on AWS, which we've had since 2015. Then we have OpenShift container platform, which is our previous self managed offering. And that's been available on AWS, also since 2015. And then, of course, this new service that are that OpenShift servers on AWS. So there's multiple ways in which customers can consume AWS and leverage the power of both OpenShift and AWS. And what I want to do here as well, right, is to take a moment to explain, you know what Red Hat's been doing in managed services, because then it's not very natural for somebody to say, oh, what's the Red Hat doing in managed services? You know, Red Hat believes in choice, right. We are all about try for that it's infrastructure footprint that's public cloud on-prem. It's managed or self managed, that's also tries to be offered to customers. And we've been doing managed services since 2011. That's kind of like a puzzling statement, people will be like, what? And yeah, it is true that we've been doing this since 2011. And in fact, we are one of the, you know, the earliest providers of managed Kubernetes. Since 2015. Right, I think there's only one other provider other than us, who has been doing managed Kubernetes, since then, which is kind of really a testament to the engineering work that Red Hat's been doing in Kubernetes. And, you know, with all that experience, and all the work that we've done upstream and building Kubernetes and making Kubernetes, really the you know, the hybrid cloud platform for the entire IT industry, we are excited to bring this joint offering. So we can bring all the engineering and the management strengths, as well as combined with the AWS infrastructure, and you know and other AWS teams, to bring this offering, because this is really going to help our customers as they move to the cloud. >> That's great insight, thanks for explaining that managed service, cause I was going to ask that question, but you hit it already. But I want to just follow up on that. Can you just do a deeper dive on the offering specifically, on what the customer benefits are here from having this managed service? Because again, you said, You Red Hats get multiple choice consumption vehicles here? What's the benefits? what's under the what's the deep dive? >> Absolutely, absolutely is a really, really good question. right as I mentioned, first thing is choice. like we start with choice customers, if they want, self managed, and they can always get that anywhere in any infrastructure footprint. If they're going to the cloud, most customers tend to think that you know, I'm going to the cloud because I want to consume everything as a service. And that's when all of these services come into play. But before we even get to the customer benefits, there's a lot of advantages to our software product as well. But as a managed service, we are actually customer zero. So we go through this entire iteration, right. And you probably everybody's familiar with, how we take open source projects, and we pull them into enterprise product. But we take it a second step, after we make it an enterprise product, we actually ship it to our multi tenant software system, which is called OpenShift Online, which is publicly available to millions of customers that manage exports on the public Internet, and then all the security challenges that we have to face through and fix, help solidify the product. And then we moved on to our single tenant OpenShift dedicated or you know soon to be the Red Hat OpenShift service on AWS but, you know, pretty much all of Red Hat's mission critical applications, like quedado is a service that's serving like a billion containers, billion containers a month. So that scale is already been felt by the newly shipped product, so that you know, any challenges we have at scale, any challenges, we have security, any box that we have we fix before we really make the product available to all our customers. So that's kind of a really big benefit to just that software in general, with us being a provider of the software. The second thing is, you know, since we are actually now managing customers clusters, we exactly know, you know, when our customers are getting stock, which parts of the stock need to improve. So there's a really good product gap anticipation. So you know, as much as you know, we want still really engage with customers, and we continue to engage with customers, but we can also see the telemetry and the metrics and figure out, you know, what challenges our customers' facing. And how can we improve. Other thing that, you know, helps us with this whole thing is, since we are operators now, and all our customers are really operators of software, it gives us better insights into what the user experience should be, and in how we can do things better. So there's a whole lot of benefits that Red Hat gets out of just being a managed service provider. Because you know, drinking our own champagne really helps us you know, polish the champagne and make it really better for all our customers that are consuming. >> I always love the champagne better than dog food because champagne more taste better. Great, great, great insight. Final question. We only have a couple minutes left, only two minutes left. So take the time to explain the big customer macro trend, which is the on premise to cloud relationship. We know that's happening. It's an operating model on both sides. That's clear as it is in the industry. Everyone knows that. But the managed services piece. So what drives an organization and transition from an on-prem Red Hat cloud to a managed service at Amazon? >> Is a really good question. It does many things. And it really starts with the IT and technology strategy. The customer has, you know, it could be like a digital transformation push from the CEO. It could be a cloud native development from the CPO or it could just be a containerization or cost optimization. So you have to really figure out you know, which one of this and it could be multiple and many customers, it could be all four of them and many customers that's driving the move to the cloud and driving the move to containerization with OpenShift. And also customers are expanding into new businesses, they got to be more agile, they got to basically protect the stuff. Because you know, there are a lot of competitors, you know, that, and b&b and other analogies, you know, how they take on a big hotel chains, it's kind of, you know, customers have to be agile IT is, you know, very strategic in these days, you know, given how everything is digital, and as I pointed out, it has coverts really like the number one digital transformation(mumbles). So, for example, you know, we have BMW is a great customer of ours that uses OpenShift, for all the connected car infrastructure. So they run it out of, you know, their data centers, and, you know, they suddenly want to go to a new geo syn, in Asia, you know, they may not have the speed to go build a data center and do things, so they'll just move to the cloud very easily. And from all our strategy, you know, I think the world is hybrid, I know there's going to be a that single cloud, multi cloud on-pram, it's going to be multiple things that customers have. So they have to really start thinking about what are the compliance requirements? What is the data regulations that they need to comply to? Is that a lift and shift out(mumbles) gistic things? So they need to do cloud native development, as well as containerization to get the speed out of moving to the cloud. And then how are they measuring availability? You know, are they close to the customer? You know, what is the metrics that they have for, you know, speed to the customer, as well, as you know, what databases are they using? So we have a lot of experience with this. Because, you know, this is something that, you know, we've been advocating, you know, for at least eight years now, the open hybrid cloud, a lot of experience with open innovation labs, which is our way of telling customers, it's not just about the technology, but also about how you change processes and how you change other things with people aspects of it, as well as continued adoption programs and a bunch of other programs that Red Hat has been building to help customers with this transformation. >> Yeah, as a speed game. One of the big themes of all my interviews this week, a couple weeks here at reInvent has been speed. And BMW, what a great client. Yeah, shifting into high gear with BMW with OpenShift, you know, little slogan there, you know, free free attribute. >> Thank you, John, >> Shifting the idea, you know, OpenShift. Congratulations, and great announcement. I love the direction always been a big fan of OpenShift. I think with Kubernetes, a couple years ago, when that kind of came together, you saw everything kind of just snap into place with you guys. So congratulations Sathish. Final question. What is the top story that people should take away from you this year? Here at reInvent? What's the number one message that you'd like to share real quick? >> Yeah, I think number one is, you know, we have a Joint Service coming soon with AWS, it is one of it's kind work for us. And for AWS, it's the first time that we are partnering with them at such a deep level. So this is going to really help accelerate our customers' move to the cloud, right to the AWS cloud, and leverage all of AWS services very natively like they would if they were using another container service that's coming out of AWS and it's like a joint service. I'm really, really excited about the service because, you know, we've just seen that interest has been exploding and, you know, we look forward to continuing our collaboration with AWS and working together and you know, helping our customers, you know, move to the cloud as well as cloud native development, containerization and digital transformation in general. >> Congratulations, OpenShift on AWS. big story here, >> I was on AWS. I want to make sure that you know we comply with the brand >> OpenShifts on open shift service, on AWS >> on AWS is a pretty big thing. >> Yeah, and ecosys everyone knows that's a super high distinction on AWS has a certain the highest form of compliment, they have join engineering everything else going on. Congratulations thanks for coming on. >> Thank you John. Great talking to you. >> It's theCUBE virtual coverage we got theCUBE virtual covering reInvent three weeks we got a lot of content, wall to wall coverage, cube virtualization. We have multiple cubes out there with streaming videos, we're doing a lot of similar live all kinds of action. Thanks for watching theCUBE (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of AWS re:Invent 2020. Sponsored by intel, AWS, and our community partners. >> Welcome back to the CUBE's coverage of the AWS re:Invent 2020. Three weeks we're here, covering re:Invent. It's virtual. We're not in person. Normally we are on the floor. Instructing *signal from the noise, but we're virtual. This is theCUBE Virtual. We are theCUBE Virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host. Got a great interview here today. Satish Balakrishnan, Vice president of hosted platforms for Red Hat joining us. Satish, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. Great to see you again. >> I wish we were in person, but we're remote because of the pandemic. But it's going to be a lot of action going on, a lot of content. Red Hat's relationship with AWS, and this is a really big story this year, at many levels. One is your relationship with Red Hat, but also the world's evolved. Clearly hybrid cloud's in play. Now you got multiple environments with the edge and other clouds around the corner. This is a huge deal. Hybrids validated multiple environments, including the edge. This is big. On premise in the cloud. What's your new update for your relationship? >> Absolutely, John, yeah. this is so you know, if anything this year has accelerated digital transformation, right The joke that COVID-19 is the biggest digital accelerator, digital transformation accelerator is no joke. I think going back to our relationship with AWS, as you rightly pointed out, we have a very storied and long relationship with AWS, we've been with AWS partnering with AWS since 2007, when we offered the Red Hat Enterprise Linux on AWS since then, you know, we've made a lot of strides, but not in the middle of our products that are layered on AWS, as well as back in 2015, we offered OpenShift dedicated Red Hat OpenShift dedicated, which is our managed offering on AWS, you know, and since then we made a bunch of announcements right around the service broker, and then you know, the operators operator hub, and the operators that AWS has for services to be accessed from Kubernetes. As well as you know, the new exciting joint service that we announced. So you know, by AWS and Red Hat, increasingly, right, our leaders in public cloud and hybrid cloud and are approached by IT decision makers who are looking for guidance or on changing requirements, and they know how they should be doing application development in a very containerized and hybrid cloud world. So you know, excited to be here. And and this is a great event, you know, three week event, but you know, usually we were in Las Vegas, but you know, this week, this year, we will do it on workshop. But you know, nevertheless, the same excitement. And you know, I'm sure there's going to be same set of announcements that are going to come out of this event as well. >> Yeah, we'll keep track of it. Because it's digital. I think it's going to be a whole another user experience personally on the Discovery sites Learning Conference. But that's great stuff. I want to dig into the news, cause I think the relevant story here that you just talked about, I want to dig into the announcement, the new offering that you have with AWS, it's a joint offering, I believe, can you take a minute to explain what was and what's discussed? Cause you guys announced some stuff in May. Now you have OpenShift services. Is it on AWS? Can you take a minute to explain the news here? >> Absolutely John yeah. So I think we had really big announcement in May, you know, the first joint offering with AWS and it is Red Hat open shift service on AWS, it's a joint service with Red Hat and AWS, we're very excited to partner with them, and you know, be on the AWS console. And you know, it's great to be working with AWS engineering team, we've been making a lot of really good strides, it just amplify, as you know, our managed services story. So we are very excited to have that new offering that's going to be completely integrated with AWS console transacted through you know AWS marketplace, but you know, customers will get all the benefit of AWS service, like you know, how just launch it off the console, basically get, you know there and be part of the enterprise discount program and you we're very really excited and you know, that kind of interest has been really, really amazing. So we just announced that, you know, it's in preview we have a lot of customers already in preview, and we have a long list of customers that are waiting to get on this program. So but this offering, right, we have three ways in which you can consume OpenShift on AWS. One is, as I mentioned previously OpenShift dedicated on AWS, which we've had since 2015. Then we have OpenShift container platform, which is our previous self managed offering. And that's been available on AWS, also since 2015. And then, of course, this new service that are that OpenShift servers on AWS. So there's multiple ways in which customers can consume AWS and leverage the power of both OpenShift and AWS. And what I want to do here as well, right, is to take a moment to explain, you know what Red Hat's been doing in managed services, because then it's not very natural for somebody to say, oh, what's the Red Hat doing in managed services? You know, Red Hat believes in choice, right. We are all about try for that it's infrastructure footprint that's public cloud on-prem. It's managed or self managed, that's also tries to be offered to customers. And we've been doing managed services since 2011. That's kind of like a puzzling statement, people will be like, what? And yeah, it is true that we've been doing this since 2011. And in fact, we are one of the, you know, the earliest providers of managed Kubernetes. Since 2015. Right, I think there's only one other provider other than us, who has been doing managed Kubernetes, since then, which is kind of really a testament to the engineering work that Red Hat's been doing in Kubernetes. And, you know, with all that experience, and all the work that we've done upstream and building Kubernetes and making Kubernetes, really the you know, the hybrid cloud platform for the entire IT industry, we are excited to bring this joint offering. So we can bring all the engineering and the management strengths, as well as combined with the AWS infrastructure, and you know and other AWS teams, to bring this offering, because this is really going to help our customers as they move to the cloud. >> That's great insight, thanks for explaining that managed service, cause I was going to ask that question, but you hit it already. But I want to just follow up on that. Can you just do a deeper dive on the offering specifically, on what the customer benefits are here from having this managed service? Because again, you said, You Red Hats get multiple choice consumption vehicles here? What's the benefits? what's under the what's the deep dive? >> Absolutely, absolutely is a really, really good question. right as I mentioned, first thing is choice. like we start with choice customers, if they want, self managed, and they can always get that anywhere in any infrastructure footprint. If they're going to the cloud, most customers tend to think that you know, I'm going to the cloud because I want to consume everything as a service. And that's when all of these services come into play. But before we even get to the customer benefits, there's a lot of advantages to our software product as well. But as a managed service, we are actually customer zero. So we go through this entire iteration, right. And you probably everybody's familiar with, how we take open source projects, and we pull them into enterprise product. But we take it a second step, after we make it an enterprise product, we actually ship it to our multi tenant software system, which is called OpenShift Online, which is publicly available to millions of customers that manage exports on the public Internet, and then all the security challenges that we have to face through and fix, help solidify the product. And then we moved on to our single tenant OpenShift dedicated or you know soon to be the Red Hat OpenShift service on AWS but, you know, pretty much all of Red Hat's mission critical applications, like quedado is a service that's serving like a billion containers, billion containers a month. So that scale is already been felt by the newly shipped product, so that you know, any challenges we have at scale, any challenges, we have security, any box that we have we fix before we really make the product available to all our customers. So that's kind of a really big benefit to just that software in general, with us being a provider of the software. The second thing is, you know, since we are actually now managing customers clusters, we exactly know, you know, when our customers are getting stock, which parts of the stock need to improve. So there's a really good product gap anticipation. So you know, as much as you know, we want still really engage with customers, and we continue to engage with customers, but we can also see the telemetry and the metrics and figure out, you know, what challenges our customers' facing. And how can we improve. Other thing that, you know, helps us with this whole thing is, since we are operators now, and all our customers are really operators of software, it gives us better insights into what the user experience should be, and in how we can do things better. So there's a whole lot of benefits that Red Hat gets out of just being a managed service provider. Because you know, drinking our own champagne really helps us you know, polish the champagne and make it really better for all our customers that are consuming. >> I always love the champagne better than dog food because champagne more taste better. Great, great, great insight. Final question. We only have a couple minutes left, only two minutes left. So take the time to explain the big customer macro trend, which is the on premise to cloud relationship. We know that's happening. It's an operating model on both sides. That's clear as it is in the industry. Everyone knows that. But the managed services piece. So what drives an organization and transition from an on-prem Red Hat cloud to a managed service at Amazon? >> Is a really good question. It does many things. And it really starts with the IT and technology strategy. The customer has, you know, it could be like a digital transformation push from the CEO. It could be a cloud native development from the CPO or it could just be a containerization or cost optimization. So you have to really figure out you know, which one of this and it could be multiple and many customers, it could be all four of them and many customers that's driving the move to the cloud and driving the move to containerization with OpenShift. And also customers are expanding into new businesses, they got to be more agile, they got to basically protect the stuff. Because you know, there are a lot of competitors, you know, that, and b&b and other analogies, you know, how they take on a big hotel chains, it's kind of, you know, customers have to be agile IT is, you know, very strategic in these days, you know, given how everything is digital, and as I pointed out, it has coverts really like the number one digital transformation(mumbles). So, for example, you know, we have BMW is a great customer of ours that uses OpenShift, for all the connected car infrastructure. So they run it out of, you know, their data centers, and, you know, they suddenly want to go to a new geo syn, in Asia, you know, they may not have the speed to go build a data center and do things, so they'll just move to the cloud very easily. And from all our strategy, you know, I think the world is hybrid, I know there's going to be a that single cloud, multi cloud on-pram, it's going to be multiple things that customers have. So they have to really start thinking about what are the compliance requirements? What is the data regulations that they need to comply to? Is that a lift and shift out(mumbles) gistic things? So they need to do cloud native development, as well as containerization to get the speed out of moving to the cloud. And then how are they measuring availability? You know, are they close to the customer? You know, what is the metrics that they have for, you know, speed to the customer, as well, as you know, what databases are they using? So we have a lot of experience with this. Because, you know, this is something that, you know, we've been advocating, you know, for at least eight years now, the open hybrid cloud, a lot of experience with open innovation labs, which is our way of telling customers, it's not just about the technology, but also about how you change processes and how you change other things with people aspects of it, as well as continued adoption programs and a bunch of other programs that Red Hat has been building to help customers with this transformation. >> Yeah, as a speed game. One of the big themes of all my interviews this week, a couple weeks here at reInvent has been speed. And BMW, what a great client. Yeah, shifting into high gear with BMW with OpenShift, you know, little slogan there, you know, free free attribute. >> Thank you, John, >> Shifting the idea, you know, OpenShift. Congratulations, and great announcement. I love the direction always been a big fan of OpenShift. I think with Kubernetes, a couple years ago, when that kind of came together, you saw everything kind of just snap into place with you guys. So congratulations Satish. Final question. What is the top story that people should take away from you this year? Here at reInvent? What's the number one message that you'd like to share real quick? >> Yeah, I think number one is, you know, we have a Joint Service coming soon with AWS, it is one of it's kind work for us. And for AWS, it's the first time that we are partnering with them at such a deep level. So this is going to really help accelerate our customers' move to the cloud, right to the AWS cloud, and leverage all of AWS services very natively like they would if they were using another container service that's coming out of AWS and it's like a joint service. I'm really, really excited about the service because, you know, we've just seen that interest has been exploding and, you know, we look forward to continuing our collaboration with AWS and working together and you know, helping our customers, you know, move to the cloud as well as cloud native development, containerization and digital transformation in general. >> Congratulations, OpenShift on AWS. big story here, >> I was on AWS. I want to make sure that you know we comply with the brand >> OpenShifts on open shift service, on AWS >> on AWS is a pretty big thing. >> Yeah, and ecosys everyone knows that's a super high distinction on AWS has a certain the highest form of compliment, they have join engineering everything else going on. Congratulations thanks for coming on. >> Thank you John. Great talking to you. >> It's theCUBE virtual coverage we got theCUBE virtual covering reInvent three weeks we got a lot of content, wall to wall coverage, cube virtualization. We have multiple cubes out there with streaming videos, we're doing a lot of similar live all kinds of action. Thanks for watching theCUBE (upbeat music)

>> From the Silicon Angle media office, in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Now, here's your host, Stu Miniman. >> I'm Stu Miniman, and you're watching theCUBE's Boston area studio, where we're talking about storage, and SDI essentials. And of course, storage, and infrastructure, really are there for the data in the application. To help me dig into this, Rob Coventry, and Steve Kenniston, thank you so much, gentlemen. >> Thanks, Stu. >> Alright, so, yeah, when we talk about one of the only constant in the industry, Steve, you said in one of our other interviews, is change. The role of all of this infrastructure stuff is to run your applications, and of course the application's, you know, the really critical piece of everything we're doing, is the data. So, Rob, maybe talk to us a little bit about your viewpoint, what you're hearing from customers, help set up this conversation. >> Well, one of the biggest changes that's going on these days, is the move towards cloud. And I often kinda want to reset the definition of what we mean with, when we say cloud, 'cause it means so many different things to so many different people. To me, cloud is all about, not a place, not somewhere where you're running computing. While it may have started out that way, when Amazon launched AWS back in, what was it, '02 or '03? Or salesforce.com, and when they were running everything in the cloud. But, it's really evolved more to a style of computing, distinct and different from your traditional computing. It has certain attributes, those attributes are what distinguish cloud computing from traditional computing, more than anything. And so, basically now, storage has gotta evolve, and support that, just as like we did with virtualization. >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, when we did it, in the industry, we spent so much time arguing over definitions, and we went, "Hybrid, public, multi, composable, "composite, everything like that." Well, you know, when I talk to customers, most of them do have a cloud strategy, but, number one is, the ink's still drying on what that strategy is, and the pieces that make up that strategy are definitely changing over time, as they grow and mature. But, they absolutely know that no matter where it is, their data is one of the biggest assets that they have, outside of people, and therefore how can they leverage, how can they get more out of data? The whole wave of big data that we were well into, and the next wave of AI, is all data at the center of it. >> Yeah, I think, I like the way Rob kind of positioned this. We've, we talked about, you hear a lot of folks talk about cloud. You know, a big part of what we're trying to do is have our sellers, as well as the community, understand that cloud isn't a place, right, it's a thing. And you've kind of alluded to what I want to do, specific types of either development, or programming, or provide assets to the world, whether it'd be data, or whether it'd be things like websites, or that sort of thing. It's got to live somewhere. And where that lives is becoming more cloudy. Now, whether that place is on-prem, or it's in a cloud, or it's in a remote data center someplace, at the end of the day the functions that you want to be able to deliver on, behave in a cloud-like behavior, and I think that's becoming more the trend of what people want. And really, it's the consumption model of where it lives, and how you pay for it, is really the bigger part of how things evolve. >> Yeah, applications are changing a lot. You used to say, the era of shrink-wrapped software is mostly over now. It's, talk a lot about microservices now, and when I'm building things, you mention functions, which catch into functions, and services, and serverless. You know, a whole new area that's changing. What's needed for this world, you look at it, you've got, you know, most customers have hundreds if not thousands of applications. Most of those aren't ready for that brave new world of cloud-native. There's usually some stuff, so, maybe Rob give us a little bit on that spectrum, and where your customers... >> So, look, I think we recognize that people have the vast majority of their infrastructures running, or applications are running, on traditional infrastructure, right? And so, they've got a couple different choices. They've either got to modernize what they've got, and the modernization is, you know, it, I was sharing with Steve last week, you know, we're modernizing our house, because we built the house back in '01, it was golden oak, it was gold handles everywhere, and so now we're getting rid of all the gold, we're painting all the golden oak, and repainting the whole house, right? So, that's a modernization. It's not a complete refurbish, remodel, that's what we would refer as refactoring, right. That's a much bigger, heavy-duty thing. And so, businesses are going to have to look at those traditional applications, and decide which of them should be just simply modernized, and then adapted, or modernized to work, and orchestrated, with that bigger cloud-like environment, and which of them need to be refactored to operate with the underlying cloud infrastructure. Which, by the way, expectation is that it's completely virtualized, it's automated, it's policy-driven, it's orchestrated, it's got all those types of cloudy-like, you know, pay on demand types of characteristics, that people learned and love from AWS, and from Google, but now they're getting on-prem as well. >> Yeah, and let me poke at one thing, because you said, you know, virtualized, and I think you don't mean just a hyper-visor, but we have things like containerization, you know, bare metal's back, you know, it's so funny, what's old is new again. Remember, it was like, "Oh, we're gonna go 100% virtual," except for containers and everything else, now, so now we've got lots of flexibility into how it's deployed. And there's that modernizing the platform, and modernizing the applications, and sometimes you do one before the other, depending on how you're doing it. >> Great point. I mean, not everybody understands the distinction, right, between containers and VMs, right. But the way I look at it, containers, one of the first things that they were really trying to attack is, a more efficient way to do virtualization than what we had with VMs in the past, right? And one of the things that they learned, is if they break those applications into smaller functional microservices, then they get another benefit, and that is continuous development. That's critical to the flexibility and agility that the business needs, to be able to constantly evolve those applications. And the third factor is, what I call asynchronous scale. So, each little function can consume however much memory, storage, and compute that it needs, independent of all the other functions in there, whereas when it was operating as a monolithic application, the traditional approach, well you were kinda stuck with however much the largest footprint was required. Now, you get a lot more efficiency out of it, you get a lot more availability, and you get continuous development. That's what you get out of containerization. >> And if you bring that up even one more step now, right, and I like to use this analogy when I'm presenting to clients, and maybe this is helpful, is, if you look at our, just take two of our product. We'd take Spectrum Protect if you take Spectrum Protect Plus, right. Spectrum Protect, you know, 25 years in the industry, number two in the world, everything, right, millions of lines of code, might even be tens of millions of lines of code. Any time you have to do anything to that code, like I want it to support X, all ten million lines of code need to kinda make sure it's adaptable to that thing, and it needs to be able to lift and shift. And we were talking about agile development, which we do now, but you were also talking about the release trains, and all that stuff, right, and what ends up going in and out. Versus, look at Spectrum Protect Plus, built on an agile development, built on microservices. I want to put in a service, I can just grab that service and plug it in pretty easily. I don't have to kind of drag all that code kicking and screaming, so to speak, along with it. But, um, now I want to ask you a question, Stu. Because I tend to think the analysts, as well as kinda the thought leaders in any company that are trying to think about helping sellers sell, and that sort of thing, we're about 12 to 18 months ahead of the customer. We have to be, because we gotta kinda see what's out there. What are you hearing around this containerization, refactoring? I think we have an opinion, it'd be interesting to hear an outside view of what you think is happening. >> Sure, Steve. And in the last few years, I spent a lot of time going to the cloud shows, I go to CubeCon, going to my second year of doing serverless comps, so, look, yeah, serverless functions, as a service, we're still in the early adopter phase. Some cool startups out there, I'm excited to talk to real customers that are doing some cool things. But even I asked Andy Jassy if, you know, the CEO of AWS, he had made some comment, you know, if we had said a couple years ago, "If Amazon was built today, it would be built on AWS." And he had made this, "If Amazon was built today, "it would be built on Lambda Serverless." And I was like, come on, really? He's like, "Well, no, I mean, what I mean is, "that's the direction we're going, "but no, we're not there yet, because we can't run one "of the biggest global companies on this yet." So, look, we understand, what could be done today, and what can't, when we talk servers? Containers, containers are doing phenomenal, we're now, containers have been around over a decade, you know, Google's been talking for many years of how many billions of containers they spin up and down. But, I've talked to much smaller companies than, you know, the Googles and Yahoos of the world, that like containers, are moving in that environment. I'm not sure we've completely crossed the chasm to the majority, but most people have heard of Docker, they're starting to play with these things. You know, companies like IBM and everyone else have lots of offerings that leverage and use containers, because a lot of these things, it just gets baked in under the hood. When you talked to, you brought up virtualization, it's like, oh. It's, you know, we watched this wave from the last 15 years of virtualization, it's just for basic, we don't even think about, sure there's environments that aren't virtualized for a certain reason, if it's containers. But, you know, when you've seen Microsoft get up on stage, and talk about how they've embraced Linux. And a lot of the reason that they've embraced Linux is to do more with containers, that's there. So, containerization is going strong, but, when you're talking of the spectrum of applications, yeah, we're still early because, the long pole in the tent, at least customers like to, it's those applications. If I've been running a company for 20 years, and I have my database that keeps everything running, making a change is really hard. If I'm a brand new application, oh, I'm doing some cool, you know, no sequel, my sequel, you know, cool applications. So, it's a spectrum as we've been talking about, Steve, but, um, yeah, the progress is definitely happening faster than it ever has, but, you take those applications, there's a lot of them that I need to either start with a lift-and-shift and then talk about refactoring things, because making change in the application's tough. APIs, we haven't talked about yet, though, is a critical piece into this. As worry about, okay, we're just gonna have API sprawl just like we have with every other thing in IT. >> I definitely want to get to API, but one more, just one more piece of color. When you're at these conferences, and the users are there, listening to the folks, but one more piece of color is, do they have, applications run the business. But it has to sit on top of something, so there's the infrastructure piece. What are the questions around refactoring, and containerization, that happen around infrastructure? I'm trying to to think about how to get from A to B, what do I think about the underlying infrastructure, or is that even a conversation, because a lot of the stuff is cloud-native, right, I mean, or can be cloud-native. >> Yeah, and the nice thing about containers is, it just lives on top of Linux, so, you know, if I've got the skillset, and I understand that, it's relatively easy to move up that way. Yeah, for a lot of the developers, when they say, "The nice thing, if I do containers, if I do Kubernetes." I really don't care, the answer is yes. Am I gonna have stuff in my data center, yeah, of course. Am I gonna do stuff in the public cloud? Yes, and that's if I can have the same Linux image. We've been talking for years about, how much of the stack do I need to make sure is the same both places to make it work, because that was always the last mile of, "Okay, it's tested, my vendor said it's good, "but I get an okay, what about my application, "my configuration, and what I did?" When I use Salesforce, I don't need to worry about it. I can pull up on any device, well, the mobile is a little bit different than the browser, but for the most part, I'm anywhere in the world, or I work for any company, it's relatively the same look and feel. So, a little bit long answer on this, but when it comes to containers, what we've been trying to do, and what I found really interesting, is, the Nirvana's always been, "I don't want to worry about what's underneath the stack." And when I said, I mentioned the cool new thing, serverless-- >> The reason for that, is the business, with containers, gets that continuous development, and continuous availability, and scalability, all in that infrastructure. The infrastructure enables that, right? So, in my mind, the reason people want to do it is, they know, the speed of change in their business is never gonna get any slower. And this platform enables that speed of change. >> So, the one thing, those of us that live through the virtualization wave, virtualization, great, I don't need to worry about what server, or how many servers, or anything. Yeah, but, the storage and networking stuff, oh wait, that kind of all broke. And we spent a decade fixing that, and trust me, when containerization first went, I had, like three years ago, went into a conference, someone is like, "It's so much faster than virtualization, "it's this and this and this." And I got off, I'm like, "Hey, uh, "we've all got the wounds, and, y'know. "You know, less hair, now that we've gone through a decade "fixing all of these issues, what about this?" Docker did a great service to the industry, helped make containers available broadly, and have done a lot. I'd say networking is a little bit further along than storages, most of the the things, you know we talk serverless, it's mostly stateless today. When we talk containers, okay, where's my repository on the side, that I do things, so, state is still something we need to worry about. >> That said, you know we've made a big investment in our ability for a block storage, and by the way, all of our file storage offerings, to be able to work with both Kubernetes and OpenShift, so, those are two of the predominant, prevalent container-based systems out there. So, I think that, at least it gives that ability to attach anything that needs persistence to our storage. >> So, what I'd love to get your perspective on, because we talk about, boy these changes that are happening on the infrastructure side. For a while it used to be, okay, business needs a new application, let's go build a temple for it. So, the business people says app, and then the infrastructure comes, team's set in, okay, I've got the building specs, give me a million bucks and 18 months, and now I'll build it. Well, today, you don't have as much money, you don't have as much time, but that relationship between infrastructure and application, they've gotta be working so much closer, so, how do they, you know, when I'm building this, who is that that builds it, and how do they work even closer? >> Well, that's this, we can talk about the infrastructure developer, I guess, too. Because really, this is the role that kind of is an evolution from what maybe was in the past a storage administrator, right? It's somebody who is setting up a set of policies, and templates, and classes of storage, that abstracts the physical from the logical, so that the application developer, who is going into Kubernetes, or into OpenShifts, says, I need a class B usage for storage, that has backed-up, and maybe replicated. Or, I need a class C, that is backup, replicated, and highly available. And the storage administrator, in that case, is setting up those templates, and just simply making sure that he's monitoring all this, so that when the additional demand comes, he just plugs it in and starts to continue to add more. >> Okay, so, I've talked a lot to developers, I haven't run across an infrastructure developer, before, as a term, so, where do they come from, what's their skill-set, maybe help flesh that out a little bit for me. >> I was gonna say, I think in a number of customer presentations I've given over the course of this last year, it's come up a number of times. So, I think, and granted in a larger companies. And it typically comes across in a chart that shows, not the number of people are changing, but the skillset in the different organizations I have are changing. So, today where I spend a lot of time doing administration, five years from now I'm not gonna be doing that much administration. So, what I want are capabilities, well, first of all I need to program the infrastructure, so that it is programmatic, to either the application, connect through API so maybe I have a chef or puppet doing dev-ops, but when I make that call, as a developer in the company, to chef or puppet because I want this, to Rob's point, everything underneath that-- >> It's orchestrated underneath there. There's a set of policies that are set, that says, this is how much compute, how much network, what kind of storage you're gonna get. That's the infrastructure developer, who sent, using APIs that are in the infrastructure, and at the higher-level platforms like Kubernetes and OpenShift, that basically allow that developer that just says, "I need some of that, I need some of that." The experience is not a lot different than what they get with Amazon Web Services, or Google App Server. It's a similar kind of experience, but you can do this on premises now. >> Yeah, and, it's very similar, as you said, and it makes a lot of sense to me. Because, for sure, chef puppet, been hearing lots of people talk, that's the people, it's like, you're not configuring luns anymore, I don't need to do all the old masking, and all the configurations. The network people, it's like, no, you've got a different job, and it's shifted, that whole vision of infrastructure as code is starting to come to fruition. >> And we talk a lot, or at least I do, right around, IT, and technology, and infrastructure's made up of three things. People, process, and technology. And the people are evolving just as fast as the infrastructure needs to evolve. So, tomorrow, I want to be building a programmatic infrastructure today, so that my people can be focused on, like you said, where is the future, I don't know, but I constantly need to be thinking like the analysts think. I need to be 12 to 18 months ahead of the company, so that I can continuously evolve that infrastructure, and help them get there, but I don't disrupt the flow of the people that need access to the data, or the applications, or that sort of thing. It's gotta be constant, and that's how that skillset is changing. >> Okay, so, is that, what's that infrastructure developer's role in helping with the app modernization? How do I figure out, you know, what do I just build new, what do I move over, how do I start pulling things apart? >> Yeah, I think it definitely starts by looking at the different applications that they have, I think you made a good example where, okay so now I want to modernize as much as I can, and now I want to start drilling into by taking a break, gaining some knowledge and some insights about containerization, and APIs, and that of sort of thing, and figuring out which applications in my stack today, I can refactor, which makes sense to build out of microservices, you know, refactor into microservices and that sort of thing. Start doing that, get that done, and then start looking at, ahead of that, what's next? So, getting that infrastructure programmed and plumbed ready, so that anyone who needs to access it can, so it's more hands-off. Think of the younger generation coming into technology today, right? I want to use my iPhone, I want to do this, I want that piece of storage, I want it to be a click of a button. I, as an infrastructure developer, need to help set that up and make that happen, so that as we move forward, I'm doing other new things. Would you agree? >> Absolutely, absolutely. So, at the end of the day, those guys are basically taking advantage of those large pool of services, whether it be storage, networking, or computing, creating APIs, or leveraging APIs, in that infrastructure, and wiring it up so that the end-user developers can go and access them at will, without waiting. >> Yeah. Last thing I want to ask in this segment, is, you know, change is tough. And when I look at my application portfolio, it can be a little bit daunting, so what sort of things should they be doing, to make sure that they're ready for the modernization, the transformation, to get along that journey a little bit faster? >> Well, the first thing is, is that you've gotta have a software to find infrastructure to be able to do any of this. And basically what that software to find infrastructure has, is has a number of attributes. The first of which is, an actual separation between the physical and the software. It has policies, it has the ability to, APIs that allow you to control that, that are either through command-line interfaces or rust interfaces, such that it can be orchestrated, and then you take advantage of all those all policies, such that you can automate it, monitor it, and manage it centrally. That is the base definition of software-defined infrastructure, and we've had it with CPUs for a long time, we've had it with networking, people have been doing network separation of software and hardware, and it's really IBM that is unique in this business, that has a set of software-defining capabilities that I think is different than the rest of the marketplace. >> Yeah, I mentioned it earlier, but I think I'll close on it too, is, you know, lots of customers, gotta modernize the platform, and that really sets you up to be able to modernize the application. Alright, Rob and Steve, thanks so much for joining us, helping us walk through the data, and the applications. Alright, thank you so much, I'm Stu Miniman, and, appreciate you watching theCUBE.