>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the you covering your red have some twenty nineteen. You >> buy bread >> and welcome back to Boston as we continue our coverage here on the Cube of the Red Hat Summit twenty nineteen, along with two minimum. I'm John Walls, and we're now joined by the V, P and C e o of Delta Airlines. Mr. Rahul Samad. Good to see you, sir. Good to see you too, Jamie, For joining us. And you have a little keynote appearance coming through with five. Forty five s. So we will not be well, we won't hold you back. >> But thank you for squeezing this, and we really do. We appreciate that. >> First off, let's talk about just Delta >> from the macro level in terms of the technology emphasis that you have tohave now, obviously running an airline. Extraordinarily complex, sophisticated systems. But how the view of technology has evolved. Maybe over the last five, ten years, where it is today. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, technology has always been core. I mean, we had a reservation systems going back to the sixties on IBM mainframes, but it's as as things have digitalized and the customer experience has become the key and empowering our employees with insights and tools so they can take better care. Even better care of the customers has become the other problem, so it's kind of a two pronged approach to digitalize ing. The company and technology has become central Now. Our culture is all about people, and our frontline teammates take great care off our customers. But then technology plays a great role in empowering them to do that even better. Sighting. It's Ah, within the company. We say, you know, we're transforming technology until competitive advantage for Delta, and so relevance is not a problem. We are extremely relevant to the company, have been forever. But I think it's getting Mohr and Maury even more so today, especially at the customer interaction. Touch point. >> So we're who we understand how important technology is. You know, in your field there talk a little bit about kind of the role of the CEO. How you know, what's the business asking for you? What? The stressors on that and a little bit of that dynamic. >> Yeah, I think. Look, >> you know, I'm an equal member of the CEOs executive team, but you still have to earn your right. And so things like reliability and stability, availability, security become table stakes. And so, in sixteen and seventeen, I started in two thousand sixteen and we needed to focus on that. So I came in, you know, starry eyed going. I'm gonna digitalize the airline experience. But what I needed to focus on was, you know, the table stakes and sort of earning my place at that table rightfully And then that gives you permission to really start collaborating with the business and bringing technology solutions to bear on business opportunity. So we're there now, so it's really exciting time we launched in the Enterprise. Why the digital transformation of the company in early two thousand eighteen, which is again both employees and customers focus. And so clearly we are central to the role ofthe Delta and the airline. >> You just can you share with us? What are some of those key goals of that digital transformation? Obviously, you know, we're all your end ultimate customers wait, value there, but, you know, is data at the core of that digital train. >> You said it. You took >> the words right out of my mouth. You know, I mean any legacy legacy is like a four letter word when it comes to technology everywhere else. We take great pride in our ninety plus year legacy, but not so much with our aging technology. So part of it was, of course, you know you got to modernize the technology, so we're doing that in the background. But data was strewn all over the company. We know a lot about our customers, but we hadn't brought it together. So now we have we have a three sixty degree view. We call it the single view of the customer. Along with that, we also have a single view of the operation. So those two data repositories are now real time and building a pea eye's on top of that and unlocking the power of that data. Two equipped Like I said, the frontline employees, they've now got tools there mobile enable, and they have insights that they can take to serving the customer and then directly guessing both off your customers and directly with you. We've mobile enable the experience and given you ah, whole lot more across the entire traveled ribbon. So >> what are you >> learning then or what have you learned about customers then, in terms of that data collection, I'm sure. I mean, there's there's pretty first level stuff when they buy tickets where the travel to that kind of thing. But then I guess going deeper and learning more about behaviors and impulsive sze impulsive reactions to certain use. Whatever. >> Yep. What do you get it out? We're just >> starting. You know, that's an interesting when, John, because we we do have it. It's a huge data repository, and we're just starting to get the use case is built on that and where we focus our attention is on service. Recovered because we >> do it with >> service would call recovery. So you know whether when weather goes bad and the airline, you know, goes into what we call an irregular operation or an IRA in airline terms, you gotta put that back together and you've got to recover the customers. They might be delayed. They might have suffered a canceled flight or miss bag in spite of all our best efforts. And that's where we're applying the single view of the customer because we know the history ofthe all your interactions with us. And so at the top of the house. The executives decided that that's where we wanted to go. We wanted to make sure that we could acknowledge to you we could recognize interruptions on your next travel with us. But while it's happening, we could actually help get you out of that and on your way again. So now we're moving from that two more revenue generation and targeted offers and targeted recognition. But where we started was really around service recovery because we think you know that that's where customers sometimes feel the pain azaz. Muchas way try for them not to. But you know, whether it's not our ally at times >> and making the business case for that, then are you able to then see how behavior is modified in terms of whether it's customer reaction or customer uptake on your services, whatever and how that's translating to either pretension or business growth or something >> along Absolutely. Even even with the early use cases that we've put forward, we're seeing that I mean the the expectations off airlines over time the customers have and that they're going to use data and technology. Ah, effectively is, I think, fairly low on DSO the when we go up and our folks walk down the aisle with the handheld device on board and they acknowledge someone for hitting a million mile milestone or for achieving diamond status >> in a way, customers are are impressed and, you know, and then you go >> the next level and you're able to take care of them on a on a delay or on a cancel and re accommodate. Before they even called the service center. They've been re accommodated and rebuild. Those are things that I mean, they engender so much loyalty. Andi, I think its technology equipping our our employees in a big way. So the employees are doing great. Now you've put another helping of technology on top of it. Customers are are paying us for that way. Have ah revenue premium on. >> So you talk about internal, Tell us a little bit about your team. How much has this been in a digital transfer? Information is retraining. So how much you trying to get people from the outside? You know, we go to shows like this. Companies like yours are heavy recruiting mode. Typical absent skill sets are tough. You know what you're looking for? And give a little >> Yes, we've had >> Ah, very seasoned, you know, t team an organization. As you would expect, an attrition very low at adult. What what I needed to do was bring in about fifteen to twenty percent of the total team. Strength is knew. That's what I brought in about six hundred people in the last thirty six months. And those were people who were hired for contemporary skills. I call them Been there, done that type people. So Cloud Engineers, FBI people, agile cyber expert, and blending that with the seasoned veterans that know a lot about Del Tighty and know a lot about the airline domain was really important. So you didn't create haves and have nots because that could have easily happened. And then that causes a rupture. So we spent a lot of time on integrating those those two halves and making sure that this was a sort of a shot of adrenaline into the bloodstream. But the blood stream is strong, and the combined force of those two groups has been terrific for us. So that that's the other thing I would say. And I'm not saying that because I'm sitting here in the Red Hat Summit is the use ofthe partners, not just for products but a set of strategic partners. Whether it's Red Hat or IBM or Microsoft, right, a small set of partners becomes a force multiplier from a talent perspective. So they become an accelerant to the transformation. >> Well, you brought it up. Talk a little bit of partnerships. How do you look at this? Is it? I want to have a primary one. Is it a handful? Talk about that depth of relationship and what you're looking for from that Federico >> system. Absolutely. And look, we've got about a dozen that I meet at the the CEO president type level on an annual basis where I would say, you know, ten to twelve that we really are tight with and that are inside the tent. They understand the pillars off our transformation, and they know where they can provide swift acceleration to our transformation. And of course, right at is one and the others that I named. But they're they're they're giving us not just the product and the service, but they're in there helping us with setting the strategy and making sure that they put the right team on the ground with us or training our people. So it runs the gamut from, you know, sort of the system integrator type all the way to open source product pipes >> for the Red Happy's. Can you highlight What are you using? And, you know, are they involved in some of that training and transformation? >> And I think you know, >> the behind the scenes sort of under the hood. The platform is a service that gives us tremendous interoperability. We are young in our journey to the cloud, and like any big company, we're going to be multi cloud and hybrid. So we built our private cloud. We've got the the red had open shift container platform hosted in our private cloud. And so we're moving a lot of application components into that >> prior to that. And that's only >> about a year that we've been doing that. But prior to that, we've been big Lennox users, you know, Red Hat Enterprise, Lin X J boss, a whole plethora of products. But I think the platform is the service is really helping us with our cloud journey, and we're we're totally jazzed about that. >> You talked about hiring and six hundred two employees in a very short period of time class door. It just stood up and said, Hey, Delta Airlines, one of the top of companies for hiring software engineers >> after it was a very nice distinction to get. What does that do? Does that mean terms of first off? How do you do >> that in such an environment where you know everybody's after the same market, if you >> will. I think, you know, how do you feel about something today? I'm I'm validate a little bit really proud of that. And it actually wasn't something that you self >> nominate or you even have, you know, some kind of a selection process. It just arrived, you know, we didn't know about it. And those are some of the best ones because it's also recognition from your employees >> because they're the >> ones who are voting with their their posts and their the ones that are telling glass Door that this is a terrific place to work and we're doing a lot of new things and we're doing them at speed and it's very relevant to the customer experience into our front line employees experience. So >> there's an impact >> story this is this is the great thing about working for an airline. There's no place to run or hide when you're in I t. Because if it's down within fifteen minutes were front page news right somewhere. And so we strive hard to make sure it's never down. And on top of that, we're building, you know, these great digital experiences. So it's been really gratifying, and I think it's going to help us even further with our recruiting efforts. >> Yeah, it's interesting, you know, without getting political. It's like you're doing this modernization. But I mean, you've got heavy regulations on, you know, just some of the basic infrastructure of your industry is a little bit antiquated, you know, and comments >> on that. Well, I think it's It's a dichotomy, and I don't think we're >> unique. And I came out of banking to insurance to airlines, And you think that the way the financial services guys spend money on it, there would be no aging technology and there'd be no you no, none of that. Webb off connectivity. It's not true. I think any company that's been around forty fifties, you know, years >> has all the generations of technology still existing. So our Endeavour >> is to make sure that we deprecate out of that technology as quickly as we can and where it's useful. I mean, >> we still use mainframes >> for a really good purpose, and someone asked me just couple of weeks ago would you get out of it? And I said, >> No, it's a half a billion dollars project >> and it's a high risk project and IBM serves me really well, And for that purpose, the mainframe is exactly what the doctor ordered. So this >> isn't about >> ideology, right? This is about purpose built and custom build. So if there's a technology that fits the purpose, I'm gonna leave well alone. And I'm going to train people and recruit people so that I don't have a talent issue in ten or twenty years when it comes to mainframe people. We've had no problem in getting apprentices and keeping our mainframe talent pipeline gold so they never get away from it. >> Can you give us just a little sneak peek on the keynote tonight? >> I mean, just a maybe a high >> level here, a couple of things just for John, and it's going to be a fireside with Jim you'LL have to come in and we'll be there and listen. But I think Jim Jim's probably got a few questions up his sleeve is also, you know, Jim's got a heritage with Delta. He was our >> chief operating officer until I think about ten years ago. And so it >> should be a fun. He hasn't told me what he's going to ask, so it's gonna be interesting as to which way he's going to come. But I would assume he >> wants to talk about, you know, digital transformation and and, of course, how right ATS helping I would, I would seem there's going to be a question or two about about red >> handed. My only warning, obi, is what >> I hear when I walk on a Delta flight. Let's fasten your seat belt. >> Yes, there. Thank you. Thanks for the time and looks forward to Aquino tonight. Thank you so much, guys. All right. Back with more here on the Cube were watching coverage right now. Right. Had summit >> and we're in Boston, Massachusetts

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's theCUBE, covering Red Hat Summit 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> And welcome back to Boston. Here on theCUBE we continue our coverage of Red Hat Summit 2019. We just had Jim Whitehurst on, President and CEO, along with Stu Miniman, I'm John Walls. And now, we turn to the IBM side of the equation. Arvind Krishna is with us, the SVP of Cloud and Cognitive Software at IBM. Arvind, good to see you this morning. >> My pleasure to be here, what a great show. >> Yeah, absolutely, it has been. I was telling Jim he couldn't have a better week, right? Monday had good news, Tuesday great kick off, today again following through great key notes. We were talking briefly, a year ago you were with us on theCUBE and talking about IBM and its forward plans, so on and so forth. What a difference a year makes, right? (laughs) >> We couldn't predict that you'd be in the position that you are in now, so just if you can summarize the last year and maybe the last six months for you. >> Sure, and I think it's more building on what I talked to you about a year ago, I remember last May, May of 2018, in San Francisco. So I was exposing very heavily, look the world's going to move towards containers, the world has already embraced Linux, this is the time to have a new architecture that enables hybrid, much along the lines that Jim and all of the clients as well as Ginni and Satya were talking about on stage yesterday. So you put all that together and you say that is what we mentioned last year and we were clear, that is where the world is gonna go. Now you step forward a few months from there into October of 2018 and on the 29th October we announced that IBM intends to acquire Red Hat, so then you say wow, we put actually our money where our mouth was. We were talking about the strategy, we were talking about Linux containers, OpenShift, the partnership we announced last May was IBM software products together with OpenShift. We already believed in that. But now this allows us coming together, it's more like a marriage than sort of loose partners passing each other in the middle of the night. >> Right. >> And that then goes forward, you mention the news on Monday so for our viewers that don't know it, that's the news that the United States Department of Justice approved merger with no conditions. So now we've got to wait on a few other jurisdictions and then hopefully we can get together really soon. >> John: Right, right. >> So, I think back to looking at IBM over my career. I think the first time I heard the word coopetition it was related to IBM because IBM, big ego system, lots of innovation over its long history but as we know the bigger you get, the more chance that your partners are also going to overlap with you. Seeing Ginni up on stage and a little bit later seeing Satya up on stage is really interesting. You look at the public, multicloud environment, everybody doesn't need to work together, you talk to your customers, and I'm sure you find today it's not the future is hybrid and multicloud, that's where they are today even if they're trying to get their arms around all of it. So I'd love to hear your, with the mega trend of Cloud, what you're seeing that competitive but partnering dynamic. >> Look, I want to step back to just give it a little bit of context. So when you talk about companies, let's go back to the beginning of computing, of PC. The PC came from IBM operating system, DOS came from Microsoft. Then you had Windows setting up the IBM PC. So that's coopetition or is that pure partnership? Right, I mean you can take your pick of those words. Our value has always been that we, IBM, come to clients and we try to service problems that actually help them in their business outcomes. Then whoever they have inside their IT shops, that they depend upon, has to be a part of that answer. You cannot say oh, so and so is bad, they're out. So it always had to be coopetition from the lengths that we came to with our clients. We always build originally computers, other people's software are on those computers, other people provided services around it. As we went into certain software space, ISVs and so on came together. So now that you come to the world of Cloud, we hold a very fundamental belief and I think we heard a number of the clients talk about this. They are going to be on multiple public Clouds. If they are going to be on multiple public Clouds, they are also going to have traditional IT and they are also going to have private Clouds. That's the world to live in if I look at it from the viewpoint of that infrastructure. To now come to your direct question, so if that's the world they're going to live in hopefully one of those public Clouds is ours but the others are from other people. The private Cloud, we believe the standard for that should be OpenShift and should be containers. So as we go down that path, then you say if you want to take that environment and also run it on the other publics. That's good for the client, that's good for the publics, that's good for us. It's really a win, win, win. And so I think the ability to go do this and to make that play out, it really goes back to my thesis from more than a year ago where we talk about this is a new set of standards and a new set of technical protocols emerging. >> I want you to take us inside the conversations you're having with CIOs when you talk about Cloud because when Cloud first came out, it was well, the sins of IT is this heterogeneous mess and it's complex and expensive. Cloud's going to be simple, homogeneous and cheap. I look at Cloud of 2019 and I don't think I would use any of those adjectives to define what most people have for Cloud. Where are they today? Where do we need to go as an industry? >> Glass house computing, all centralized, all homogeneous, not all at heterogeneous. Oops, 15 flavors of Unix, all different, none of them really talk to each other. Oops let's go to desktop computing, we begin with a pure architecture, maybe Novell which doesn't exist, maybe it does, I don't even know. Oops, back to this complete sprawl of client server. Okay let's go to Cloud back to centralized glass house. >> You're making me dizzy. >> Oops, let's go to-- (laughing) >> Let's go to lots of public, lots of SaaS, lots of private, back to this thing. So, in each of these a different answer came on how to unite them. I think when we look at that Unix and client server sprawl, I think TCP/IP and the internet came together so that you could have all these islands talk to each other and be able to communicate. All right, great, we've got 20 years of victory on that. Now you're getting these things, how do you begin to workload across because that becomes the next level of values. Not enough to communicate. Can I really take a workload? A workload is not just a VM or just one container, it's a collection of these things integrated together in a pretty tight and complex way. And can we take it from one place and move it to the other? Because that goes to the write once, run anywhere mantra which by the way also we come to about every 20 years. I think that's the magic of this moment and if we succeed in making that happen, which I have complete conviction we will, especially together, then I think we give a huge value back and we give freedom to every CTO and every CIO. >> You paint this really interesting whoops picture, I love that, it's really a back and forth, right, we're swinging and almost there's a cyclical nature to this is what you're I think implying. What's to say in your mind that this isn't just another whoops as opposed to this being a permanent shift in the paradigm? >> I think it's, the reason I think that it's going to be cyclical is we tend to, you know whether you go to construction and real estate, you talk about capacity and factories. You see an opportunity and people tend to go one way. The only way to correct culture if you're sitting in one place is to sort of over-correct the other way, now you're over-corrected. Now you have to come back. And always when you over-correct one way, then suddenly all those other benefits you've lost, so then you've got to come back to get those benefits. After about 10 years, probably, you can debate 10 or 15, you're done. You've exploited all those benefits, now you need to go get those benefits. Because the technologies have changed, it's not just that you're going back to what was. We're going very conceptually from centralized to distributed, to centralized to distributed. And by the way, another one that's getting out from pure centralized is also Edge. Edge in effect is another distributed, so you put those together and you say I went there, but then I lost all this stuff, now I need to get back to that stuff. If you've got too much there, you'll say, no, no, no, I need to get some of this back. So it's going to go that way I think for every, if you look at it, the big arcs are back, the pendulum, what do you call it, the pendulum swing, is I think about 20 years it looks like, right? 1960, centralized, 1980, PC, 2000, you could say was the peak of the internet. Hey, 2020, we're in Cloud. So looks like about 20 years, looks like. >> All right, so, I like what you were saying when you talk about that multicloud environment, the application is really central there. IBM, of course, has a strong history, not just in middleware but in applications. What do you think will differentiate this kind of next wave of multicloud, how will the leaders emerge? >> Right, so if you look at it today, you run infrastructure. I think OpenShift has done a great job of how you help run their infrastructure. The value in our eyes in putting the services on top, both coming from open source as well as other companies that are running like an integrated package. This is all about taking the cost out of how do you deploy and develop. And if we can take the cost out of that, you're not talking about that five to 10 X as we heard a couple of the clients up on stage yesterday with Jim talk about. If we give that to everybody, you can sort of say that 70% which goes into managing your current and only 30% on innovation. Can you shift that paradigm completely? That's the big business outcome that you get. As you begin to deliver these towers of function on top of the base. You need to start at base, without one base, you don't know how to say, I can't deal with these towers of function on thirty different things underneath. That engineering answer is a terrible one. >> In terms of the infrastructure market, things keep changing, right? Consolidating, EMC doing what they're, you know what happened there. How do you see your play in that market? First off, how do you see infrastructure evolving? And then how do you see your play in that going forward? >> Infrastructure has always been big, in the end all the stuff you talk about has to run on infrastructure. I'd say the consumption model of how you get infrastructure is changing. So it used to be that many years ago, people bought all their own infrastructures. They bought boxes, they put in boxes, they did all the integration. And what came from the vendor was just a box. Then you went to, all right you can get it as a managed service or you can get it in Cloud which is also a pay by the drink but you can now turn it up and down also. So it's not a either or, people want all of these models. And so our role in infrastructure, certain things we will provide. When it comes to running really high mission critical workloads, think mainframe, think big Unix, think storage, of that ilk; we'll keep providing that. We believe there's a lot of value in that. We see the value, our clients appreciate that value. That workload turns up, but it's the mission critical part of the workload. Then in turn we also provide the more commodity infrastructure but as a service. We supply a large amount of it to our clients. It comes sometimes wrapped in a managed service, it sometimes comes wrapped as a Cloud. And we will also consume infrastructure from other Cloud providers because if people are providing base computer, network and storage, there is no reason to presume that our capabilities wouldn't run on top. If I go back to just February, we announced that Watson will now run. We said we used the moniker Watson Anywhere to make the assertion that we will run Watson anywhere that we can run the correct containerized infrastructure. >> So, Arvind, what's the single most pressing issue that you hear from organizations with respect to their technology strategy and how's IBM helping there? >> I think modernizing applications is the biggest one. So people have, typically a large enterprise will have anywhere from 3,000 to 15,000 applications. That's what runs the enterprise. We talk about everyone's becoming a software company, right, I mean that was one of the quotes and everybody is becoming a tech company that was I think what one of the clients said, hey, we think you're a bank, you're actually a tech company. What that says is that you're capturing the essence of all the business processes. You're capturing the essence of the experiences. The essence of what regulators need, the essence of how you maintain customer and customer of our clients, trust, back to them. It's maintained through this collection of applications. Now if you say I want to go change, I want to become even more client centric, I want to insert AI into the middle of my business process, I want to become more digital. All of that is modernizing applications. The big pinpoint they all have is how do I modernize them? What becomes that fabric in which I modernize? How do I know I'm not locked into yet another spaghetti mess if I go down this path? Because we've seen that movie also. So they're interested in, hey, I want to be clean at the end of this. I want freedom to be able to move it. And that is why I'm so passionate about, the fabric is based on open source, the fabric's got to be based on open standards. If you go there, there is no lock-in, and it's not a spaghetti mess, it is actually clean. Much cleaner than any other option that we can dream of is going to be. And so if we go down this path, now you can open yourself up to a much faster velocity of how you deliver innovation and value back to the business. >> Okay, so, I'd agree first of all when you talk about modernization, the applications that they have, that's the long pole in the tent. We understand compared to all the other digitization, modernization, this is the toughest challenge here. I'm a little surprised though that I didn't hear the word data because they don't necessarily articulate it but the biggest opportunity that they have has to be tied to data. >> Well to me, when I use the word application here, and you heard me use the word AI, can I insert AI in the context of an application? Now, why is it not being done today? To get the value out of AI, the data that powers the AI is stuck in all the silos, all over the place. So you've got to have, as you do this modernization, it's imperative to put the correct data architecture so that now you can do the governance, so that you can choose to unlock the appropriate parts of the data. It's really important to say the appropriate parts because neither do you want data sort of free floating around the globe, because that is the value of a company at the end of the day. And so that unlocking of that value is a huge part of this. So you're absolutely right to ask me to express it more strongly when I use the word application, I'm inclusive of not just runtime but always of the data that powers that application. >> Arvind, it was again a year ago that we were talking to you out in San Francisco and you made some rather strong thematic predictions that turned out well. I'm not going to put you on the spot here, but I can't wait to see next year. And see how this turns out. >> I can't let him go before, we had the CIO of Delta who we had on our program. >> Oh, right, right. >> In the key note, made a question about licensing, of course Jim Whitehurst said we don't have licensing but what's your answer? >> I'm willing to offer a deal to Samant. So I think that both IBM and Red Hat do a fair amount of air travel. We'll give him a common license if he can just include Red Hat for whatever IBM pays, just include all the Red Hat travel that is needed on Delta. (laughing) You know just so that the business models become clear and we can go have a robust discussion. >> Out of Raleigh that's a good deal. >> For us. >> That's what I'm saying. That is a good deal. All right, the ball is in your court, or on your runway. Whatever the case may be. Arvind, thanks for being with us. >> My pleasure. >> We appreciate it. And we'll let you know if we hear back from Rahul on that good deal. TheCUBE continues live from Boston right after this. (upbeat music)

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the queue covering your red. Have some twenty nineteen. You buy bread. >> Oh, good morning. Welcome back to our live coverage here on the Cube of Red Hat Summit twenty nineteen, along with two men. Timon, I'm John Walls were in Boston. A delightful day here in Beantown. Even made more so by the presidents of Jim White, her's president, CEO, Red hat. Jim, Thanks for joining us. Number one. Number two. What else could go right for you here this week? This has just been a great show. Great keynotes. You had great regulatory news on Monday. I mean, you've got a four leaf clover in that pocket there. I think for him >> to tell you what the weather is holding up well, for us, you're right with great partnership announcements. Amazing product launches. You have been a red hat, but eleven years now and this is only my third rail launch, right? When we deliver it, we commit to long lives. And so But it's awesome to be a part of that. And we had all the engineers on stage. I can't imagine how it could get any better. >> You >> win the lottery >> Oh, yeah? Well, yes. This one step at a time here. Relate and open share for we'LL get to those just a little bit. Let's go back to the keynote last night. First life, you have CEOs of IBM and Microsoft. Very big statements, right? We know about the IBM situation. I think a lot of people got a charge out of that a little bit. You know, Jenny commenting about have a death wish for this company. And I have thirty four billion reasons why I wanted to succeed. But a very good message. I think about this. This linkage that's about to occur, most likely. And the thought going forward from the IBM side of the fence? >> Yeah. I thought it was really good toe have her there. Not only to say that, you know, we're obviously bought it toe to make it grow, but also really making a statement about how important open source is to the future of IBM, right? Yeah. What became clear to me early on when we were talking is this is a major major. I would say that the company might be too strong a word, but it is a major kind of largest possible initiative around open source than you can imagine. And so I can't imagine, uh, imagine a better kind of validation of open source with one large technology companies the world basically going all in with us on it >> to talk about validation of open source, such a nadella up on stage. If you had told me five years ago that within a week I would see Satya Nadella up on stage with the CEO of'Em wear and then a week later up on stage with the CEO, right hat, I'm like, Are we talking about the same Microsoft? This is not the Microsoft that I grew up with on and worked with soap. We're talking your team and walking around. It wasn't just, you know, he flew in from Seattle. I did. The casino left. He was meeting with customers. There's a lot of product pieces that are going together, explain a little bit, that kind of the depth of the partnership and >> what we've made. Just tremendous progress over the last several years with Microsoft, you know, started back in two thousand fifteen. Where were you across certified hyper visors, And that's kind of a basic you know, let's work together. Over the last couple of years, it's truly blossomed into a really good partnership where, you know, I think they've and we both gotten over this, you know, Lennox versus Windows thing. And you know, I say, we've gotten over. I think we both recognized, you know, we need to serve our customers in the best possible way on that clearly means is two of the largest infrastructure software providers working closely together and what's been interesting. As we've gone forward, we find more and more common ground about how we could better serve our customers. Whether that's you know what might sound mundane. That's a big deal sequel server on Realm and setting benchmarks around that or dot net running on our platforms. Now all the way to really be able to deliver a hybrid cloud with a seamless experience with open shift from, you know, on premise to to Azure and having Deutsche Bank on State's twenty five a thousand containers running in production, moving back and forth to your >> you know what getting customers to change is challenging. You know, it's a little surprising even after that this morning to be like Oh, yeah. Let me pull up windows and log in and do all this stuff. We've talked to you a lot over the years about culture, you know, loved your book. We've talked a lot about it, but I really enjoyed. Last night is I mean, you had some powerful customers stories talking about how red hats helping them through the transformation. And like the Lockheed one for me was like And here's how we failed at first because we tried to go from waterfall to scrum Fall on. Do you know he definitely had the audience you're after? >> Yeah, I really wanted to make Mikey No talking about it called How we have so many great What's to talk about your rela a open ship for bringing all those capabilities from for OS. But I really wanted Teo talk about the hell, because that actually is the hardest part for customers. And so having kind of customers back in back to back to back, talking about success stories and failures to get there, and it really is about culture. And so that's where we called the open source way, which we kind of coin, which is, you know, beyond the code. It's, you know, meritocracy and how you get people to work together and collaboration. That's what more and more our customers want to talk about. In fact, I'd say ninety percent of the customer meetings I'm in, which are, you know, more CIA level meetings they're all about. Tell me about culture. Tell me how you go about doing that. Yeah, We trust the technology's gonna work. We don't have that issue with open source anymore. Everybody assumes you're gonna have open source. It's really how do you actually make that effective? And so that's what I really wanted to tow highlight over the course of the evening. >> You know, there was a lot of conversation, too. And you have your talking to Jenny about culture last night that you have multiple discussions over the course of the negotiation or of the conversations. So it wasn't just some cursory attention This I mean, the both of you had a really strong realization that this has to work in terms of this, you know, merging basically of philosophies and whatever. But you've had great success, right with your approach. So if you can share a little bit about how those cops is ations How you went through what transpired? Kind of how we got to where we are Now that you know, we're on the cusp of successful moment for you. Yeah, >> sure. So, yeah. I mean, from day one, that was the center of the discussion, I think early on. So year Agos, um, IBM announced, contain arising their software on open shift. And I think that's when the technical light went off about Hey. Having the same bits running across multiple clouds is really, really valuable in open shifts. The only real way to do that. And yes. Oh, Arvind was here from IBM on stage talking about that. And so I think technically, it was like, OK, ding, this makes sense. Nobody else could do it. And IBM, with their capabilities and services integration center. Just lot of strategic logic, I think the difficult part. Even before they approached this. Now, kind of looking back on it, having all these discussions with him now it's okay. Well, culturally, how do we bring it together? Because, you know, we both have strong cultures, mean IBM has a famous culture. We do that air very, very, very different. And so from the moment Jenny first approached me literally, you know, Hey, we're instant this, But let's talk about cultural, how we're going to make this work because, you know, it is a lot of money to spend on a company with No I p. And so you know, I think as we started to work through it, I think what we recognized is we can celebrate the strength of each other's cultures, and you know the key. And this is to not assume that there's one culture that's right for everything. We have a culture hyper optimized for collaboration and co creation, whether that's upstream with our source communities or downstream with our customers or with our employees and how that works. And that's great. Let's celebrate that for what it is. And, you know, IBM kind of run some of those big, most mission critical systems in the world, you know, on mainframes and how you do that looks and feels different. And that's okay. And it's okay to be kind of different. But together, if we can share the same values if we can, you know, share the same desire to serve our customers and put them first how we go about doing it. It's okay if those aren't exact. And as we got more comfortable with that, um, that's when I got more comfortable with it. And then, most importantly for me is we talk about culture. But a lot of our culture comes from the fact that we're truly a mission kind of purpose driven company, right? We're all about making open source the default choice in the world. And you know, to some extent remember, have these conversations with senior teams like, Hey, we were going to think we're going to change the world. You know? How better can we propel this for? This is such a huge platform to do it, and yet it's going to be hard. But aren't we here to do hard things? >> So it talked about it, You know, it's it's always been difficult selling when you don't have the. There's been a lot of discussions in the ecosystem today, as companies that build I p with open source and some of the models have been changing and some of the interactions with some of the hyper scale companies and just curious when you look at that, it's you know, related to what you're doing, what feedback you have and what you're seeing. >> Yeah. Look, first, I'LL say, I can't talk about that as an interested observer because our model is different than a lot of open source software companies. You know, Paul talked about in his keynote today, and we talked a lot about you know, our models one hundred percent open source, where we take open source code, typically getting involved in existing communities in creating life cycles, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so that model's worked well for us. Other open source companies where I think this is more of a challenge with the hyper scale er's right more of the software themselves. And obviously they therefore need to monetize that in a more direct way. You know, our sins are businessmen always say it's a really bad business model the right software and give it away. You know, that's not what we do where hundreds and open source, but you know, if you look at our big communities were, you know, ten to twenty percent of the contribution, because we want to rely on communities. The issue for those companies that are doing Maur. The code contribution themselves is there's a leakage in the open source license, which is, you know, the open source, like the viral licenses. You know, if you make changes and you redistribute, you have toe also, you know, redistribute your code as well. And redistribution now is to find in a hyper scale is just different. So there's kind of a leakage in the model. I think that ultimately gets fixed by tweaks to the licenses. I know it's really controversial, and companies do it, but, you know, Mongo has done it. I think you'LL see continuing tweaks to the length the licenses would still allow broad use, but kind of close that loophole if you want to call that a loophole. >> Yeah, well, it's something that you know as observers. We've always watched this space and you know, when you talk about Lennox, you know, you've created over three billion dollar company, But the ripple effects of Lennox has been huge. And I know you've got some research that we want to hear about when we've looked at like the soup space. When you look at the impact of big data and now where is going you know, the hoodoo distribution was a very, very small piece of that. So, you know, talk a little bit about the ripples. Is some new research that >> way? Had some research that was that we commission to say, What is the impact of Lenin's right hand and press linens? And then we were all blown away. Ten trillion dollars. I mean, so this isn't our numbers or we had really experts do this and e. I mean, it really blew us away. But I think what happens is if you think about how pervasive it is in the economy, it's ultimately hard to have any transaction done that doesn't somehow ripple into technology and technology. Days primarily built around Lynn IQ. So in red headed President X is the leader, so it just pervades and pervades. When you look at the size in the aperture and you make a really good point around, whether it's a duper lennox, I mean, we could look a red hat, the leader and Lennox and we're, you know, less than four billion dollars of revenue. But we've created this massive ecosystem the same thing with the Duke. You think about how big an impactful. Big data and the analytics and built on it are massive. The company's doing are only a couple hundred million dollars, and I will say I've become comfortable with I'd say, five years ago, I used to say in my glass half empty day I'd be like we're creating all of this value yet we're just only getting this little tiny sliver. Um, I've now flip that around and say My glass Half full days I look and say Wow, with this lever we have with this little bit of investment were fundamentally changing the world. And so everybody's benefiting in a much larger scale around that. And when you think about it, that aperture is something really, really, really excited >> about. Well, you talk about, you know where the impact will be. Talk about Cloud, that the wave of container ization, you know, Where do you see that ending up? You know, I look, you know, Cooper Netease is one of those things. There's a lot of excitement and rightfully so. It was going to change the market, but it's not about a Cuban aunties distribution. It's going to be baked into every platform out there. Yeah, gunships doing quite well. And you know all the cloud providers, your partner with them and working with them. It's less fighting to see who leads and Maura's toe. How do we all work together on this? >> Well, you know, I think that's >> the great thing about ah well functioning, mature, open source projects is it behooves everybody to share. Now we'LL compete ultimately, you know, kind of downstream. But it who's everybody to share and build on this kind of common kind of component. And, you know, like any good open source project, it has a defined set of things that it does. I think you hit on a really important point. Cooper Netease is such an important layer. Doesn't work without Lennox, right? I mean, lyrics is, you know, containers or Lennox. And so how do you think about putting those pieces to gather manageability and automation thinks like answerable. And so, you know, at least from our perspective, it's How do you take these incredible technologies that are cadence ng, you know, at their own pace and are fundamentally different but can't work unless you put them all together? Which to us, you know, that creates a big opportunity to say, How do I take this incredible technology that thousands of, of really technically Swiss cave people are working on and make it consumable? Archer Traditional model has been like linnet, simply saying We're going to snap shot. We're going created to find life we're going back for, you know, do patching for what? And we still do that. But there's now an added sir sort of value, something like open shift, where you can say, Okay, we could put these pieces together in life cycle and together. And, you know, we see instances all the time where an issue with Cooper Netease requires, you know, a change analytics. And so being able to life cycle in together, I think we can really put out a platform where we literally now we're saying in the platform you're getting the benefits of millions of people working on overtime on Lenox with tens of thousands people working on Cooper, Netease and the Learnings are all been kind of wrapping back into a platform. So our ability to do that is it kind of open source continues to move up. The stack is really, really exciting. >> Now. You were talking about transformative technologies on DH. How great it is to be a part of that right now. You alluded to that last night in the keynote. So you're talking about this, You know your history lessons. You know how much you love doing that? Your ki notes and you know, the scientific method Industrial Revolution open source. Just without asking you to re can you are a recount. All that. Just give us an idea about how those air philosophically aligned it. How you think those air open source follows that lineage, if you will, where it is fundamentally changing the world. It is a true global game change. Yeah, And >> so the point last night was a really kind of illustrate how a change in thinking can fundamentally change the world we live in. And so what I talked about just kind of quickly is so the scientific method developed and kind of the fifteen hundreds ish time frame was a different way to discover knowledge. So it goes from kind of dictates coming down from, you know, on high, too. Very simple hypothesis, experiment, observation of the results of the things that go through that process and stand the test of time and become what we consider knowledge right? And that change lead immediately to an explosion of innovation, whether that with the underpinnings of the industrial revolution or enlightenment, what we've done in medicine, whole bunch of areas. And yeah, the analogy I came to was around well, the old way we just try to innovate constrains us in a more open approach is a fundamentally better way to innovate. But what I found so interesting in and I think you picked up on it if it didn't emphasize this much, wanted to excite and having a lot of time, its many of the same characteristics of scientific discovery. So the idea of you know, independence anybody could actually do this pinpoints the importance of experimentation and learning those Air Corps components of, you know, tef ops and agile and open source, right? It's very, uh, in the end, the characteristics are actually quite similar as well. I think that's just fascinating to see happen. >> So e think about that. And if you could bring it back to the customers you're talking to, you have a lot of executive conversation, said You focus a lot on the how is really challenging. We understand. You know, the organizational structure of most companies goes back over a hundred years to military. So you know, what you see is some of the one of the biggest challenges that, you know, executive thieves we're facing these days. And, you know, how are they getting past that? Stuck? >> Yeah. And so, you know, I think the simple is way to state. The problem, which I hear over and over again, is we tried an agile transformation, and it failed because our culture was already and cultures Mohr of, ah always tell the executor when they said to me, It's like, Okay, but recognized cultures and output, not an input. And it's an output of leadership behaviors, beliefs, values what's been rewarded over time. So if you want your culture to change, actually to think about changing the way that you lied and manage and broadly, the structures, the hierarchies, the bureaucratic systems that we have in place today are really good at driving efficiency in a static environment. So if you're trying to slightly take a little bit of cost out building a car, you start with what you did last year. You get a bunch of scientists are consultants to look at it, and then you direct some fairly small changes. So the structure were in places other wrong with them. When value creation was about standardization of economies of scale. The hierarchies work really, really well to distribute tasks and allow specialization and optimization. The problem is now most value creation. It's requiring innovation. It's how doe I innovate and how I engage with my customer. You know the example I used a couple years ago? Its summit was, you know, the average cars use ninety minutes today. So if you think about how to reduce the cost of transfer port ation, is it taking two percent out of the cost of building a car? Or is it figuring out whether it's ride sharing or other ways? Teo. A fractional ownership. Whether it is to increase the average utilization of the car, it's clearly the ladder. But you can't do that in about bureaucratic hierarchical system that requires creativity and innovation, and the model to do that requires injecting variants in. That's what allows innovation to happen. So as leaders, you have to show up and say, all right, how do I encourage descent, you know, how do I accept failure? Right. So this idea of somebody tries something and it fails. If you fire him, nobody's gonna try anything again. But experimentation by definition requires a lot of failures and how you learn from it. So how do you build that into the culture where as executives you say holding people accountable doesn't mean, you know, firing him or beating him up. If they make a mistake, it's how do I encourage the right level of risk taking in mistakes, you know, even down to the soft side. So you know, how do you hold somebody accountable in an agile scrum, right. Your leaders have to be mature enough to sit down, have a conversation. Not around here. The five things you were supposed to do and you did forum. So you get in eighty right now, you can't say exactly what they need to do because it's a little blurry. So you have to have leaders mature enough to sit down and have a conversation with somebody is I think you got an eighty. Thank you. Got an eighty because here's what you did well, and here's what you didn't. But it's subjective. And how do you build that skill and leaders? They oughta have those subjective conversations, right? That sounds really, really soft, but it's not gonna work if you don't have leaders who can do that right? And so that's why it's hard. Because, you know, changing peep people is hard. And so that's why I think so. Many CEOs and executives want to talk about it. But that's what I mean by it's a soft side. And how do you get that type of change to happen? Because if you do that, pick ours honestly, pick somebody else's, you know, agile Davis with methodologies. They'LL work if you have a culture, this accepting of it >> before they let you go. There were two things to our quick observations about last night. Number one rule Samant hitch up on the licensing, so I know you've got your hands full on that. Good luck with that. You mentioned licensing a little bit ago, and I learned that thirty four billion dollars is a good deal. Well, right, that's what you said I heard it from are absolutely well. Things >> were a separate entity. We don't have licenses. So I don't know how we would go into an l A >> given. We don't have a license to sell. So got some expectations setting >> we need to do with our customers and then, you know, but separately, You know, I think people do forget that Red Hat is a not only a really fast growing company were also really profitable company. Most of the other software companies that are growing at our pace on a gap basis makes little to no money. We have because we get the leverage of open source, we actually generate a very large amount of free cash flow. And if you actually not to get the details of the financials. But we look at our free cash flow generation in our growth, I would argue, was a smoking good deal. That thirty four. I was asking for a lot more than that. >> You could had smoking good the last night that was gonna work to give thanks for the time. >> It's great to be here. >> Thank you. Thank you for hosting us here. Great opportunities on this show for I know that's exciting to see two but continued success. We wish you all >> thanks. So much. Thank you for being here. It's great to have you, >> Jim. White House joining us back with more live coverage here on the Cube. You are watching our coverage here in Boston of Red Hat Some twenty nineteen. Well,