>> Welcome back to Cube On Cloud. My name is Paul Gillin, enterprise editor at SiliconANGLE, and I'm pleased to now have as a guest on the show. Amit Zephyr, excuse me, general manager, vice president of business application platform at Google cloud. Amit is a formerly EVP and corporate officer for product development at Oracle cloud, 24 years at Oracle, and by my account a veteran of seven previous appearances on theCube. Amit welcome, thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having me Paul, it's always good to be back on theCube. >> Now you are... one of your big focus areas right now is on low-code and no-code. Of course this is a market that seems to be growing explosively. We often hear low code/no code used in the same breath as if they're the same thing. In fact, how are they different? >> I think it's a huge difference, now. I think industry started as local mode for many, many years. I mean, there were technologies, or tools provided for kind of helping developers be more productive that's what low-code was doing. It was not really meant, even though it was positioned for citizen developers it was very hard for a non technologist to really build application using low code. No-code is really meant as the word stands, no code. So there's really no coding, there's no understanding required about the underlying technology stack, or knowing how constructs works or how the data is laid out. All that stuff is kind of hidden and abstracted out from you. You are really focused as a citizen developer or a line of business user, in kind of delivering what your business application requirements are, and the business flows are, without having to know anything about writing any code. So you can build applications, you can build your interfaces and not have to learn anything about a single line of code. So that's really no-code and I think they getting to a phase now where the platforms have gotten much stronger and better where you can do very good productive applications without having to write a single line of code. So that's really the goal with no-code, and that's really the future in terms of how we will get more and more line of business users, or citizen developers to build applications they need for their day-to-day work. >> So when would you use one or the other? >> I think since low-code you would probably any developer has been around for eight, 10 years, if not longer where you extract out some of this stuff you can do some of the things in terms of not having to write some code where you have a lot of modules pre-built for you, and then when you want to mix a lot of changes, you go and drop into an ID and write some code or make some changes to a code. So you still get into that, and those are really focused towards semi-professional developers or IT in many cases or even developers who want to reduce the time required to start from, write and building an application. so it makes you much more productive. So if you are a really some semi-professional or you are a developer, you can either use use low-code to improve your productivity and not start from scratch. No-code is really used for folks who are really not interested in learning about coding, don't have any experience in it, and still want to be productive and build applications. And that's really when I would start with.. I would not give a low code to a citizen developer or a line of business user who has no experience with any coding. And that's not really.. It will only productive, They'll get frustrated and not deliver what you need, and not get anything out of it and many cases. >> Well, I've been around this industry long enough to remember fourth-generation languages and visual basic >> Yeah and the predecessors that never really caught on in a big way. I mean, they certainly had big audiences but, right now we're seeing 40, 50% annual market growth. Why is this market suddenly so hot? >> Yeah it's not a difference. I think that as you said, the 4G deal and I think a lot of those tools, even if you look at forms, and PLC and we kind of extracted out the technology and made it easier, but it was not very clear who they were targeting with that. They're still targeting the same developer audience. So the they never expanded the universe of users. It was same user base, just making it simpler for them. So, with those low-code tools, it never landed them getting more and more user base out of that. With no-code platforms, you are now expanding the user community. You are giving this capabilities to more and more users than a low-code tools could provide. That's why I think the growth is much faster. So if you find the right no-code platform, you will see a lot more adoption because you're solving a real problem, you are giving them a lot more capabilities and making the user productive without having to depend on IT in many cases, or having to wait for a lot of those big applications to be built for them even though they need it immediately. So I think that's why I think you're solving a real business problem and giving a lot more capabilities to users and no doubt the users love it and they start expanding the usage. It's very viral adoption in many cases after that. >> Historically the rap on these tools has been that, because they're typically interpreted, the performance is never going to be up to that of application written in C plus plus or something. Is that still the case? Is that a sort of structural weakness of no-code tools or is that changing? >> I think the early days probably not any more. I think if you look at what we are doing at Google Cloud for example, it's not interpreted, I mean, it does do a lot of heavy lifting underneath the covers, but, and you don't have to go into the coding part of it but it brings the whole Cloud platform with it, right? So the scalability, the security the performance, availability all that stuff is built into the platform. So it's not a tool, it's a platform. I think that's thing, the big difference. Most of the early days you will see a lot of these things as a tool, which you can use it, and there's nothing underneath the covers the run kinds are very weak, there's really not the full Cloud platform provided with it, but I think the way we seeing it now and over the last many years, what we have done and what we continue to do, is to bring the power of the Cloud platform with it. So you're not missing out on the scalability, the performance, security, even the compliance and governance is built in. So IT is part of the process even though they might not build an application themselves. And that's where I think the barriers have been lifted. And again, it's not a solution for everything also. I'm not saying that this would go in, if you want to build a full end to end e-commerce site for example, I would not use a no-code platform for it, because you're going to do a lot more heavy lifting, you might want to integrate with a lot of custom stuff, you might build a custom experience. All that kind of stuff might not be that doable, but there are a lot of use cases now, which you can deliver with a platform like what we've been building at Google cloud. >> So, talk about what you're doing at Google cloud. Do you have a play in both the low-code and the no-code market? Do you favor one over the other? >> Yeah no I think we've employed technologies and services across the gamut of different requirements, right? I mean, our goal is not that we will only address one market needs and we'll ignore the rest of the things required for our developer community. So as you know, Google cloud has been very focused for many years delivering capabilities for developer community. With technology we deliver the Kubernetes and containers tend to flow for AI, compute storage all that kind of stuff is really developer centric. We have a lot of developers build applications on it writing code. They have abstracted some of this stuff and provide a lot of low-code technologies like Firebase for building mobile apps, the millions of apps mobile apps built by developers using Firebase today that it does abstract out the technology. And then you don't have to do a lot of heavy lifting yourself. So we do provide a lot of low-code tooling as well. And now, as we see the need for no-code especially kind of empowering the line of business user and citizen developers, we acquired a company called AppSheet, early 2020, and integrated that as part of our Google Cloud Platform as well as the workspace. So the G suite, the Gmail, all the technology all the services we provide for productivity and collaboration. And allowed users to now extend that collaboration capabilities by adding a workflow, and adding another app experience as needed for a particular business user needs. So that's how we looking at it like making sure that we can deliver a platform for spectrum of different use cases. And get that flexibility for the end user in terms of whatever they need to do, we should be able to provide as part of a Google Cloud Platform now. >> So as far as Google Cloud's positioning, I mean you're number three in the market you're growing but not really changing the distance between you and Microsoft for what public information we've been able to see in AWS. In Microsoft you have a company that has a long history with developers and of development tools and really as is that as a core strength do you see your low-code/no-code strategy as being a way to make up ground on them? >> Yeah, I think that the way to look at the market, and again I know the industry analyst and the market loves to do rankings in this world but, I think the Cloud business is probably big enough for a lot of vendors. I mean, this is growing as the amazing pace as you know. And it is becoming, it's a large investment. It takes time for a lot of the vendors to deliver everything they need to. But today, if you look at a lot of the net new growth and lot of net new customers, we seeing a huge percentage of share coming to Google Cloud, right? And we continue to announce some of the public things and the results will come out again every quarter. And we tried to break out the Cloud segment in the Google results more regularly so that people get an idea of how well they're doing in the Cloud business. So we are very comfortable where we are in terms of our growth in terms of our adoption, as well as in terms of how we delivering all the value our customers require, right? So, note out one of the parts we want to do is make sure that we have a end to end offering for all of the different use cases customers require and no-code is one of the parts we want to deliver for our customers as well. We've done very good capabilities and our data analytics. We do a lot of work around AIML, industry solutions. You look at the adoption we've had around a lot of those platform and Hybrid and MultiCloud. It's been growing very, very fast. And this one more additional things we are going to do, so that we can deliver what our customers are asking for. We're not too worried about the rankings we are worried about really making sure we're delivering the value to our customers. And we're seeing that it doesn't end very well. And if you look at the numbers now, I mean the growth rate is higher than any other Cloud vendor as well as be seeing a huge amount of demand been on Google Cloud as well. >> Well, not to belabor the point, but naturally your growth rate is going to be higher if you're a third of the market, I mean, how important is it to you to break into, to surpass the number two? How important are rankings within the Google Cloud team, or are you focused mainly more on growth and just consistency? >> No, I don't think again, I'm not worried about... we are not focused on ranking, or any of that stuff typically, I think we were worried about making sure customers are satisfied, and the adding more and more customers. So if you look at the volume of customers we're signing up, a lot of the large deals they didn't... do we need to look at the announcement we'd made over the last year, has been tremendous momentum around that. Lot of large banks, lot of large telecommunication companies large enterprises, name them. I think all of them are starting to kind of pick up Google Cloud. So if you follow that, I think that's really what is satisfying for us. And the results are starting to show that growth and the momentum. So we can't cover the gap we had in the previous... Because Google Cloud started late in this market. So if Cloud business grows by accumulating revenue over many years. So I cant look at the history, I'm looking at the future really. And if you look at the growth for the new business and the percentage of the net new business, we're doing better than pretty much any other vendor out there. >> And you said you were stepping up your reference to disclose those numbers. Was that what I heard you say? >> I think every quarter you're seeing that, I think we started announcing our revenue and growth numbers, and we started to do a lot of reporting about our Cloud business and that you will start, you see more and more and more of that regularly from Google now. >> Let's get back just briefly to the low-code/no-code discussion. A lot of companies looking at how to roll this out right now. You've got some big governance issues involved here. If you have a lot of citizen developers you also have the potential for chaos. What advice are you giving customers using your tools for how they should organize around citizen development? >> Yeah, no, I think no doubt. If this needs to be adopted by enterprise you can't make it a completely rogue or a completely shadow based development capabilities. So part of our no-code platform, one thing you want to make sure that this is enterprise ready, it has many aspects required for that. One is compliance making sure you have all the regulatory things delivered for data, privacy, security. Second is governance. A lot of the IT departments want to make sure who's using this platform? How are they accessing it? Are they getting the right security privileges associated with that? Are we giving them the right permissions? So in our a no-code platform we adding all this compliance, and governance regulatory stuff as part of our underlying platform, even though the end user might not have to worry about it the person who's building applications shouldn't have to think about it, but we do want to give controls to IT as needed by the large enterprises. So that is a big part of how we deliver this. We're not thinking about this as like go and build it, and then we write it once you have to do things for your enterprise, and then get it to do it again and again. Because then it just a waste of time and you're not getting the benefit of the platform at all. So we bringing those things together where we have a very easy to use, very powerful no-code platform with the enterprise compliance as well as governance built into that platform as well. And that is really resonating. If you look at a lot of the customers we're working with they do require that and they get excited about it as well as the democratizing of all of their line of business users. They're very happy that they're getting that kind of a platform, which they can scale from and deliver the productivity required. >> Certainly going to make businesses look very different in the future. And speaking of futures, It is January it's time to do predictions. What are your predictions (laughs) for the Cloud for this year? >> No I think that I mean no doubt cloud has become the center for pretty much every company now, I think the digital transformation especially with COVID, has greatly accelerated. We have seen many customers now who are thinking of pieces of their platform, pieces of their workflow or business to be digitized. Now that's trying to do it for all of it. So the one part which we see for this year is the need for more and more of efficiency in the industry are verticalized business workflows. It's not just about providing a plain vanilla Cloud Platform but also providing a lot more content and business details and business workflows by industry segments. So we've been doing a lot of work and we expect a huge amount of that to be becoming more and more core part of our offering as well as what customers are asking for. Where you might need things around say know your customer kind of workflow for financial services, Telehealth for healthcare. I mean, every industry has specific things like demand management and demand forecasting for retail but making that as part of a Cloud service not just saying, hey, I have compute storage network. I have some kind of a platform go add it and go and build what you want for your industry needs, We want to provide them that all those kinds of business processes and content for those industries as well. So we identified six, seven, industries. We see that as a kind of the driving factor for our Cloud growth, as well as helping our customers be much more productive as well as seeing the value of Cloud being much more realistic for them versus just a replacement for the data center. I think that's really the big shift in 21 I think. And I think that will make a big difference for all the companies who are really trying to digitize and be in forefront of the needs as their customers require in the future. >> Of course all of this accelerated by the pandemic and all of the specialized needs that have emerged from that. >> And I think the bond, which is important as well, I think as you know, I mean, everybody talks about AIML as like a big thing. No doubt AIML is an important element of it, but if you make that usable and powerful through this kind of workflows and business processes, as well as particular business applications, I think you see a lot more interest in using it than just a plain manila framework or just technology for the technology sake. So we try to bring the power of AI and ML into this business and industry applications, where we have a lot of good technologists at Google who knows how to use all these things. You wanted to bring that into those applications and platforms >> Exciting times ahead. Amit Zavery thank you so much for joining us. You look just as comfortable as I would expect someone to be who is doing his eighth Cube interview. Thanks for joining us. >> (laughing) Thanks for having me, Paul. >> That's it for this segment of Cube On Cloud, I'm Paul Gillin, stay tuned. (soft music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for two days wall-to-wall coverage is Corey Quinn. Happy to welcome back to the program first Ben Sigelman, who is the co-founder and CEO of LightStep. And welcome to the program a first time Morgan McLean, who's a product manager at Google Cloud Platform. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having us. >> Yeah. >> All right so, this was a last minute ad for us because you guys had some interesting news in the keynote. I think the feedback everybody's heard is there's too many projects and everything's overlapping, and how do I make a decision, but interesting piece is OpenCensus, which Morgan was doing, and OpenTracing, which Ben and LightStep were doing are now moving together for OpenTelemetry if I got it right. >> Yup. >> So, is it just everybody's holding hands and singing Kumbaya around the Kubernetes campfire, or is there something more to this? >> Well I mean, it started when the CNCF locked us in a room and told us there were too many projects. (Stu and Ben laughing) Really wouldn't let us leave. No, to be fair they did actually take us to a room and really start the ball rolling, but conversations have picked up for the last few months and personally I'm just really excited that it's gone so well. Initially if you told me six or nine months ago that this would happen, I would've been, given just the way the projects were going, both were growing very quickly, I would've been a little skeptical. But seriously, this merger's gone beyond my wildest dreams. It's awesome, both to unite the communities, it's awesome to unite the projects together. >> What has the response been from the communities on this merger? >> Very positive. >> Yeah. >> Very positive. I mean OpenTracing and OpenCensus are both projects with healthy user bases that are growing quickly and all that, but the reason people adopt them is to future-proof their own software. Because they want to adopt something that's going to be here to stay. And by having these two things out in the world that are both successful, and were overlapping in terms of their goals, I think the presence of two projects was actually really problematic for people. So, the fact that they're merging is net positive, absolutely for the end user community, also for the vendor community, it's a similar, it's almost exactly the same parallel thought process. When we met, the CNCF did broker an in-person meeting where they gave us some space and we all got together and, I don't know how many people were there, like 20 or 30 people in that room. >> They did let us leave the room though, yesterday, yeah that was nice. >> They did let us leave the room, that's true. We were not locked in there, (Morgan laughing) but they asked us in the beginning, essentially they asked everyone to state what their goals were. And almost all of us really had the same goal, which is just to try and make it easy for end users to adopt a telemetry project that they can stick with for the long haul. And so when you think of it in that respect, the merger seems completely obvious. It is true that it doesn't happen very often, and we could speculate about why that is. But I think in this case it was enabled by the fact that we had pretty good social relationships with OpenCensus people. I think Twitter tends to amplify negativity in the world in general, as I'm sure people, not a controversial statement. >> News alert, wait, absolutely the negatives are, it's something in the algorithm I think. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Maybe they should fix that. >> Yeah, yeah (laughs) exactly. And it was funny, there was a lot of perceived animosity between OpenTracing and OpenCensus a year ago, nine months ago, but when you actually talk to the principals in the projects and even just the general purpose developers who are doing a huge amount of work for both projects, that wasn't a sentiment that was widely held or widely felt I think. So, it has been a very kind of happy, it's a huge relief frankly, this whole thing has been a huge relief for all of us I think. >> Yeah it feels like the general ask has always been that, for tracing that doesn't suck. And that tends to be a bit of a tall order. The way that they have seemed to have responded to it is a credit to the maturity of the community. And I think it also speaks to a growing realization that no one wants to have a monoculture of just one option, any color you want so long as it's black. (Ben laughing) Versus there's 500 different things you can pick that all stand in that same spot, and at that point analysis paralysis kicks in. So this feels like it's a net positive for, absolutely everyone involved. >> Definitely. Yeah, one of the anecdotes that Ben and I have shared throughout a lot of these interviews is there were a lot of projects that wanted to include distributed tracing in them. So various web frameworks, I think, was it Hadoop or HBase was-- >> HBase and HDFS were jointly deciding what to do about instrumentation. >> Yeah, and so they would publish an issue on GitHub and someone from OpenTracing would respond saying hey, OpenTracing does this. And they'd be like oh, that's interesting, we can go build an implementation file and issue, someone from OpenCensus would respond and say, no wait, you should use OpenCensus. And with these being very similar yet incompatible APIs, these groups like HBase would sit it and be like, this isn't mature enough, I don't want to deal with this, I've got more important things to focus on right now. And rather than even picking one and ignoring the other, they just ignored tracing, right? With things moving to microservices with Kubernetes being so popular, I mean just look at this conference. Distributed tracing is no longer this kind of nice to have when you're a big company, you need it to understand how your app works and understand the cause of an outage, the cause of a problem. And when you had organizations like this that were looking at tracing instrumentation saying this is a bit of joke with two competing projects, no one was being served well. >> All right, so you talked about there were incompatible APIs, so how do we get from where we were to where we're going? >> So I can talk about that a little bit. The APIs are conceptually incredibly similar. And the part of the criteria for any new language, for OpenTelemetry, are that we are able to build a software bridge to both OpenTracing and OpenCensus that will translate existing instrumentation alongside OpenTelemetry instrumentation, and omit the correct data at the end. And we've built that out in Java already and then starting working a few other languages. It's not a tremendously difficult thing to do if that's your goal. I've worked on this stuff, I started working on Dapper in 2004, so it's been 15 years that I've been working in this space, and I have a lot of regrets about what we did to OpenTracing. And I had this unbelievably tempting thing to start Greenfield like, let's do it right this time, and I'm suppressing every last impulse to do that. And the only goal for this project technically is backwards compatibility. >> Yeah. >> 100% backwards compatibility. There's the famous XKCD comic where you have 14 standards and someone says, we need to create a new standard that will unify across all 14 standards, and now you have 15 standards. So, we don't want to follow that pattern. And by having the leadership from OpenTracing and OpenCensus involved wholesale in this new effort, as well as having these compatibility bridges, we can avoid the fate of IPv6, of Python 3 and things like that. Where the new thing is very appealing but it's so far from the old thing that you literally can't get there incrementally. So that's, our entire design constraint is make sure that backwards compatibility works, get to one project and then we can think about the grand unifying theory of a provability-- >> Ben you are ruining the best thing about standards is that there is so many of them to choose from. (everyone laughing) >> There's still plenty more growing in other areas (laughs) just in this particular space it's smaller. >> One could argue that your approach is nonstandard in its own right. (Ben laughing) And in my own experiments with distributed tracing it seems like step one is, first you have to go back and instrument everything you've built. And step two, hey come back here, because that's a lot of work. The idea of an organization going back and reinstrumenting everything they've already instrumented the first time. >> It's unlikely. >> Unless they build things very modularly and very portably to do exactly that, it's a bit of a heavy lift. >> I agree, yeah, yeah. >> So going forward, are people who have deployed one or the other of your projects going to have to go back and do a reinstrumentation, or will they unify and continue to work as they are? >> So, I would pause at the, I don't know, I would be making up the statistic, so I shouldn't. But let's say a vast majority, I'm thinking like 95, 98% of instrumentation is actually embedded in frameworks and libraries that people depend on. So you need to get Dropwizard, and Spring, and Django, and Flask, and Kafka, things like that need to be instrumented. The application code, the instrumentation, that burden is a bit lower. We announced something called SpecialAgent at LightStep last week, separate to all of this. It's kind of a funny combination, a typical APM agent will interpose on individual function calls, which is a very complicated and heavyweight thing. This doesn't do any of that, but it takes, it basically surveys what you have in your process, it looks for OpenTracing, and in the future OpenTelemetry instrumentation that matches that, and then installs it for you. So you don't have to do any manual work, just basically gluing tab A into slot B or whatever, you don't have to do any of that stuff which is what most OpenTracing instrumentation actually looks like these days. And you can get off the ground without doing any code modifications. So, I think that direction, which is totally portable and vendor neutral as well, as a layer on top of telemetry makes a ton of sense. There are also data translation efforts that are part of OpenCensus that are being ported in to OpenTelemetry that also serve to repurpose existing sources of correlated data. So, all these things are ways to take existing software and get it into the new world without requiring any code changes or redeploys. >> The long-term goal of this has always been that because web framework and client library providers will go and build the instrumentation into those, that when you're writing your own service that you're deploying in Kubernetes or somewhere else, that by linking one of the OpenTelemetry implementations that you get all of that tracing and context propagation, everything out of the box. You as a sort of individual developer are only using the APIs to define custom metrics, custom spans, things that are specific to your business. >> So Ben, you didn't name LightStep the same as your project. But that being said, a major piece of your business is going through a change here, what does this mean for LightStep? >> That's actually not the way I see it for what it's worth. LightStep as a product, since you're giving me an opportunity to talk about it, (laughs) foolish move on your part. No, I'm just kidding. But LightStep as a product is totally omnivorous, we don't really care where the data comes from. And translating any source of data that has a correlation ID and a timestamp is a pretty trivial exercise for us. So we do support OpenTracing, we also support OpenCensus for what it's worth. We'll support OpenTelemetry, we support a bunch of weird in-house things people have already built. We don't care about that at all. The reason that we're pursuing OpenTelemetry is two-fold, one is that we do want to see high quality data coming out of projects. We said at the keynote this morning, but observability literally cannot be better than your telemetry. If your telemetry sucks, your observability will also suck. It's just definitionally true, if you go back to the definition of observability from the '60s. And so we want high quality telemetry so our product can be awesome. Also, just as an individual, I'm a nerd about this stuff and I just like it. I mean a lot of my motivation for working on this is that I personally find it gratifying. It's not really a commercial thing, I just like it. >> Do you find that, as you start talking about this more and more with companies that are becoming cloud-native rapidly, either through digital transformation or from springing fully formed from the forehead of some God, however these born in the cloud companies tend to be, that they intuitively are starting to grasp the value of tracing? Or does this wind up being a much heavier lift as you start, showing them the golden path as it were? >> It's definitely grown like I-- >> Well I think the value of tracing, you see that after you see the negative value of a really catastrophic outage. >> Yes. >> I mean I was just talking to a bank, I won't name the bank but a bank at this conference, and they were talking about their own adoption of tracing, which was pretty slow, until they had a really bad outage where they couldn't transact for an hour and they didn't know which of the 200 services was responsible for the issue. And that really put some muscle behind their tracing initiative. So, typically it's inspired by an incident like that, and then, it's a bit reactive. Sometimes it's not but either way you end up in that place eventually. >> I'm a strong proponent of distributed tracing and I feel very seen by your last answer. (Ben laughing) >> But it's definitely made a big impact. If you came to conferences like this two years ago you'd have Adrian, or Yuri or someone doing a talk on distributed tracing. And they would always start by asking the 100 to 200 person audience, who here knows what distributed tracing is? And like five people would raise their hand and everyone else would be like no, that's why I'm here at the talk, I want to find out about it. And you go to ones now, or even last year, and now they have 400 people at the talk and you ask, who knows what distributed tracing is? And last year over half the people would raise their hand, now it's going to be even higher. And I think just beyond even anecdotes, clearly businesses are finding the value because they're implementing it. And you can see that through the number of companies that have an interest in OpenTracing, OpenTelemetry, OpenCensus. You can see that in the growth of startups in this space, LightStep and others. >> The other thing I like about OpenTelemetry as a name, it's a bit of a mouthful but that's, it's important for people to understand the distinction between telemetry and tracing data and actual solutions. I mean OpenTelemetry stops when the correct data is being omitted. And then what you do with that data is your own business. And I also think that people are realizing that tracing is more than just visualizing a single distributed trace. >> Yeah. >> The traces have an enormous amount of information in there about resource usage, security patterns, access patterns, large-scale performance patterns that are embedded in thousands of traces, that sort of data is making its way into products as well. And I really like that OpenTelemetry has clearly delineated that it stops with the telemetry. OpenTracing was confusing for people, where they'd want tracing and they'd adopt OpenTracing, and then be like, where's my UI? And it's like well no, it's not that kind of project. With OpenTelemetry I think we've been very clear, this is about getting >> The name is more clear yeah. >> very high quality data in a portable way with minimal effort. And then you can use that in any number of ways, and I like that distinction, I think it's important. >> Okay so, how do we make sure that the combination of these two doesn't just get watered-down to the least common denominator, or that Ben just doesn't get upset and say, forget it, I'm going to start from scratch and do it right this time? (Ben laughing) >> I'm not sure I see either of those two happening. To your comment about the least common denominator, we're starting from what I was just commenting about like two years ago, from very little prior art. Like yeah, you had projects like Zipkin, and Zipkin had its own instrumentation, but it was just for tracing, it was just for Zipkin. And you had Jaeger with its own. And so, I think we're so far away, in a few years the least common denominator will be dramatically better than what we have today. (laughs) And so at this stage, I'm not even remotely worried about that. And secondly to some vendor, I know, because Ben had just exampled this, >> Some vendor, some vendor. >> that's probably not, probably not the best one. But for vendor interference in this projects, I really don't see it. Both because of what we talked about earlier where the vendors right now want more telemetry. I meet with them, Ben meets with 'em, we all meet with 'em all the time, we work with them. And the biggest challenge we have is just the data we get is bad, right? Either we don't support certain platforms, we'll get traces that dead end at certain places, we don't get metrics with the same name for certain types of telemetry. And so this project is going to fix that and it's going to solve this problem for a lot of vendors who have this, frankly, a really strong economic incentive to play ball, and to contribute to it. >> Do you see that this, I guess merging of the two projects, is offering an opportunity to either of you to fix some, or revisit if not fix, some of the mistakes, as they were, of the past? I know every time I build something I look back and it was frankly terrible because that's the kind of developer I am. But are you seeing this, as someone who's probably, presumably much better at developing than I've ever been, as the opportunity to unwind some of the decisions you made earlier on, out of either ignorance or it didn't work out as well as you hoped? >> There are a couple of things about each project that we see an opportunity to correct here without doing any damage to the compatibility story. For OpenTracing it was just a bit too narrow. I mean I would talk a lot about how we want to describe the software, not the tracing system. But we kind of made a mistake in that we called it OpenTracing. Really people want, if a request comes in, they want to describe that request and then have it go to their tracing system, but also to their metric system, and to their logging stack, and to anywhere else, their security system. You should only have to instrument that once. So, OpenTracing was a bit too narrow. OpenCensus, we've talked about this a lot, built a really high quality reference implementation into the product, if OpenCensus, the product I mean. And that coupling created problems for vendors to adopt and it was a bit thick for some end users as well. So we are still keeping the reference implementation, but it's now cleanly decoupled. >> Yeah. >> So we have loose coupling, a la OpenTracing, but wider scope a la OpenCensus. And in that aspect, I think philosophically, this OpenTelemetry effort has taken the best of both worlds from these two projects that it started with. >> All right well, Ben and Morgan thank you so much for sharing. Best of luck and let us know if CNCF needs to pull you guys in a room a little bit more to help work through any of the issues. (Ben laughing) But thanks again for joining us. >> Thank you so much. >> Thanks for having us, it's been a pleasure. >> Yeah. >> All right for Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman we'll be back to wrap up our day one of two days live coverage here from KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019, Barcelona, Spain. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (soft instrumental music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to the live Cube coverage here, three days at Seattle's KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. It's a conference put on by the Linux Foundation. Cube's been there from the beginning, breaking down all the action. 8,000 people, doubling attendance from the last one, now global, on a global scale, seen great traction in China and other areas around the world. It's about the cloud global. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, our next guest, Kelsey Hightower with Google. Former code program share, now out in the wild on his own, super dope, playing with all kinds of new technology, it's great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Proper you said the word dope, by the way, so congratulations there. I'm an attendee, I still have a keynote on Thursday but I do get to enjoy the floor like everyone else. >> So what's new, so you're now, again, there's a lot of pressure now every year. It's more and more people here, so it's a lot of pressure to kind of get all the action packed, but the growth has been pretty phenomenal. You've been looking at serverless, we saw some tweets, again you mention it's super dope, serverless is. You've got serverless, you've got a lot of stuff going on within the CNC app, you've got Kubernetes at the core. A lot of people like calling it the Kubernetes stack or the CNCF stack. Is it really a stack, is it really more of an operating model because there's stacks involved but how do you describe it, because this is a point of clarification. I mean, Kubernetes isn't necessarily a stack. Is it, how do people use it, what's the current state? >> I think when people say stack, you think about the LAMP stack, right? Linux, Apache, MySQL, it's a way of pre-packaging these ideas. This is something that worked for me, it may work for you, you say that enough times and then you say things like the Kubernetes stack. It's a quick, shorthand for Kubernetes and building on top of it. I think from the engineering perspective, when you look at Kubernetes and all the gaps that the CNC app is trying to fill these days, it's all this stuff you're probably building yourself, someone else is building it, and now we kind of have an outlet now. If you're working on a service mesh like list was, you have an outlet to give it to the rest of the world, open governance, and get some contributors. I think what we're seeing now is that hey, CNCF is kind of the place people go to figure out is someone building the thing that I've already started building and can I stop and just download that and go off? >> It's been very successful open source community, obviously, it's been end user leverage, it's been great and it's been open source, community led. Not so much vendor led, but vendors have been participating, so it's been great, but now as Kubernetes is going mainstream, the rise of Kubernetes is undeniable. No one can really deny that. Other end users are now coming in either to participate or to consume Kubernetes. How is that going in your mind? What's going on in the landscape, because people want multicloud, they want hybrid, they want choice. How are end users coming into the ecosystem to consume Kubernetes and the variety of goodness around it and what's going on there? Can you give some color around that option? >> I think regardless of the industry buzzwords like multicloud and hybrid and all that, Kubernetes is good on its own. It solves a lot of problems that your previous tools didn't solve, so people are gravitating towards it regardless in that direction. When you start to talk about portability, yes, it's nice to have two different environments and have the same tools work in a similar way between those environments, that's working well. The people that started three years ago that were doing it themselves, they're finding value and treating that as a service. We saw this happen to DNS, e-mail, so people are saying maybe the value isn't running it myself, so now you kind of see the vendor ecosystem understand what the value is. For a lot of the cloud providers, it's running Kubernetes, patching it, updating it, upgrading it, so that you can go focus on the other parts on top. That's where I think we are as an industry, and then there's gaps to fill, so that's where you see things like native, people building CI-CD tools on top, that's just where the new opportunities are so I think we've kind of matured. People kind of know what Kubernetes is, they know where their value line is for Kubernetes, now they're looking for their partners or vendors or community to just layer the new stuff on top. >> Kelsey, you bring up a great point there because understanding that line of what I should do myself and what I have to do versus what I can buy, consume as a service, is really tough for people, you know. I always say, ask IT departments, what do you really suck at? Because there's somebody else that probably does it better. A year ago, when I talked to users at this show, they were really downloading stuff, putting their things together, and when you asked them why, it was well, the Azure stuff hasn't matured. It just released, Amazon, I'm not sure where they're going with it. It feels like a lot has changed in the last year. You did Amazon the hard way a little over a year ago. What has changed over the last year, you know. >> We saw this with Linux, right? >> Are we ready for that, yeah. >> In Linux everyone use to build their own Linux distro, you took pride in it, using Gentoo and Slackware, and then you're like, I'm tired of that so you go get Red Hat or Ubuntu and call it good, and then you go focus on the other things. Naturally, Kubernetes is early project, has lots of gaps, you can fill those gaps by gluing together open source yourself, but now most of the managed services fill in the gaps by default. You click a button in GKE and a thing comes up, it's secure, has most of the pieces you need, it's integrated, you're like alright, I'm done with that part. >> The other thing, we talked a year ago. There's lots of companies here that are involved in Kubernetes. We've got over 70 that are compliant, and then you've got the service providers. From what I hear, it's people aren't trying to differentiate with Kubernetes and that's probably a good thing. It's something that's going to be baked into the platform, it's something you're going to consume with the other services that I offer, what do you say? >> If you make it different, then it won't work. >> Right. >> It'll be a different thing, so if you make it too different then you lose most of the benefits that we're all talking about here. The ability to learn a set of abstractions once, kind of like we did on Linux, if you start changing the system calls on Linux, then it's not Linux anymore, it's a different thing. >> Just to clarify though, if I'm running in one cloud that has their Kubernetes and I want to go to another, is it similar enough? Can I make that move? Do I need a vendor-independent version? >> So I think up to this value line I've run this container, ship the log somewhere, give me a way to secure access, that's pretty standard. Give me a load balancer. What isn't standard is how do I do CI-DC on top of that, that's not standard. There's different opinions on how to do that. If I'm in Google Cloud, we have IEM one way, Azure has IEM a different way, and same thing for Amazon. There's things around networking, security, that are going to be different based on the environment you're in. Same for on-prem, and that's where you start to look for help. If I go to Google, I'm going to use GKE maybe instead of running it myself on just a bunch of VMs, so that's where you kind of see that little divide. >> Is that going to be custom work, that's a great point, security for instance, we'll just pull that out there. Is that going to automate and be seamless or is that going to be a work area that's always going to have to be differentiated or coded or? >> So for example, we have the big vulnerability recently in Kubernetes world, right? >> It's a big CVE, it affected everyone running Kubernetes. That's a thing, as a vendor, for us GKE people, we upgraded automatically for them and said hey, there's a CVE, it's going to be really scary when you read about it but hey, you're patched. We've taken care of you, so I think people will still look for that relationship. Will it always be custom? At the app level, that is a different story. When you run your container and you want to access the things in your environment, so if you're in Google Cloud you may want to talk to Spanner, you're going to need an IEM set of credentials. That's a little out of scope of Kubernetes, so that's going to be integration work that the provider will do. >> So the holy trinity of computing industry has always been storage, network, and compute, and it changes certainly with cloud and all the goodness that comes out from serverless and whatnot, so containers is interesting. We always love containers but I've heard conversations recently where it's like hey, I want to treat containers not as a first class citizen because it doesn't meet my security boundary. I'm going to put a VM around that and run that under the covers with say, Lambda. Is that feasible, is than an option? I've heard talk about it, is anyone doing that? Is that an alternative, is this going to introduce new elements? >> Let's put it right, in Kubernetes by defaults we chose to build on top of Docker. Industry momentum, great developer workflow, but you're right, it made a security trade off. We know VMs are a much tighter security boundary that people are comfortable with. In that world, at that time, they were too slow for what we needed to happen. Thanks to Intel and others who pulled the thread of let's make VMs faster. Recently you heard the announcement of Firecracker, right, it's part of a derivative from the Chrome VM and that thing is optimized for these kinds of workloads, containers and serverless workloads. Now we go from 10, 20 seconds to hundred milliseconds. Now it makes sense to probably have this become an underlying thing. Now that we have the speed, maybe people say hey, we can maybe take the security without sacrificing the performance. >> That's the trade off. >> Pulled on the thread, you mentioned Firecracker. There's still this tension between what's happening in Kubernetes and serverless. We saw Knative is a hot topic point. It's probably natural that there's some tension there because it's like oh wait, why do you need to learn any of this stuff because if serverless will just make it as a service and make it easy and you don't need to learn all that container stuff and everything, what do you say? >> If you're a Kubernetes user, if you really think about the very broad definition of serverless, meaning I'm not managing the database, I'm using a managed database, serverless database. Storage, I'm using S3 or Google Cloud storage, serverless. Your load balancer, also serverless. So most people in the Kubernetes ecosystem, networking, serverless, storage, serverless, their database, serverless. The only thing that you can say isn't serverless is this compute component, everything else is. Now people are looking at serverless as this spectrum. How serverless are you? If you're on-prem and you buy a server and you rack it and install Kubernetes, you're less serverless, you're probably not serverless at all, no matter what you do. Now, if you put a lot of work in, you can probably put a serverless interface on top. This is what native is designed to do for people. Maybe you have an organization that supports multiple businesses inside of your org. They may not know anything about Kubernetes. You just tell them hey, put your code here, it will run, oh, that feels serverless. You can provide a serverless experience. The delta then becomes what can we do between a container and a function, so the foundation of my keynote is exactly that. What does it mean to take a container and put it into Lambda? What do you have to change? In my presentation, I don't even read write the code. There's a small shim between the two worlds because you're already using managed services around it. We're not talking about throwing away Kubernetes and then starting over our entire architecture. We're swapping out the compute layer. One is a subset of the other. Lambda is about events and functions, Kubernetes is about container and run it however you want. You want to run it when an event comes in, that's native. You want to run it as a batch job, run it as a job. You want to run it as a long running service, run it as a deployment, so that's all we're really talking about here. When we break it down, you're just talking about compute. >> You talk a lot about automation in the CI-CD areas, that differentiation where the value is. In a world as automation goes faster, what does Kubernetes look like when it becomes automated away? Because I don't want to manage anything, why even have managed Kubernetes? It should just automatically, you mentioned the patching. In an automated world, is Kubernetes just running under the covers, how does Kubernetes look down the road in your mind, in terms of when automation comes in? >> I've been in this game maybe over 15 years and one thing holds true: most developers want to focus on the business logic. We hire them because that's their skillset. When they check in code, it would be really nice if you can take it from there and get it where it needs to be. That's been the holy grail. We see it in mobile, you build an app, you put it on the App Store, Apple gets it to every device on the planet, done. Now it's the server side turn to do this. Whether you're doing serverless functions, Kubernetes, VMWare, or Linux, if you have CI-CD in front of any of that, the developer can still have the same experience. I check in code and you're picking a different deploy target. If you did that five years ago, and you understood it, and you were using, let's say maybe Mesos or just VMs, you bring in Kubernetes, you don't even have to change this part of the equation. This is why I tell most people, just focus on this endgame. My keynote last year was about this is the endgame because this is your coacher, this is your change management process, this is your discipline, and this is just a target where that compute goes. >> Alright, we've got two minutes left. I want to get your thoughts and share with the audience who's not here, a big waiting list, I know there's some lobby con going on all around Seattle, people flew in. Great place too to actually have some good lobby con meetings around the lobby area. So what's happening here, in your mind's eye, now you're not in the throes of all the events, you're kind of in the wild here with us, everyone else. What's the top story, what's going on, what's the vibe, what are you extracting out of all this activity as a top story, top level stories here? >> I think everyone's finding their place. If you're a security vendor, you kind of know where your line is, right? I've got this Twistlock shirt on. They want to plan a world where they need to integrate closer to the developer workflow, not just on the infrastructure side. If you're selling load balancers, service mesh is a thing, where do you fit in? The lines are getting a lot clearer. Kubernetes is starting to say maybe we should stop here. Maybe service measures should take it from here and that's where Istio comes in. Traditional vendors can now play in this well-defined space. On the storage side, what are you integrating? Now we have the storage interface, like the container storage interface. Now, if you're a net app, you know where you fit into the puzzle. You don't need to have your own Kubernetes distro. Two years ago, everyone was trying to come out with their own Kubernetes distro so they can actually have an anchor. Now you're like, ah, now I know where to play and now we also know what's missing. After years of doing this, people look back and say there's a lot of stuff missing. It's OK now to go create something new. >> It's a clear visibility into the landscape. What about the impact to end users? What is notable in your mind in terms of highlights, impact to end user organizations really going through this quote digital transformation, which is very cloud-based of course, but they're certainly changing and impacting, what's your thoughts on the end user? >> We're using some of the same words now. Forget the technology piece, now we can all start to talk about the same things, so when we say container, we kind of now are talking about the same thing. When we start to talk about sidecars, whether that's a service mesh, Envoy sidecar, or something that adapts your existing code to the new world, now that we're using the same language, we can actually talk. Traditional enterprise can talk to the startups and have a meaningful conversation. >> That's awesome, any other observations here in terms of the size of the show? Got a lot more activity, feels a little bit like re:Invent, I'm bumping into people, swimming through the crowds, the swag's hot. >> It's 8,000 people here and it feels like there's more users that know nothing about Kubernetes so even though we're about five years in, it reminds me of when we were just getting started. >> Lot more work to do but great, congratulations on all the work you've done Kelsey. Really appreciate you taking the time every year to come on theCUBE. We love having you on, great commentary, great keynotes, very entertaining. Thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Awesome, thank you. >> I'm John Furrier, Cube here with Kelsey Hightower telling us about all the breakdown of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, the beginning of the cloud tsunami is happening, certainly changing businesses, changing open source, it's changing, it's on a global scale. We're here with coverage for three days. We'll be right back with more after this short break.

from Orlando Florida it's the cube covering si P sapphire now 2018 brought to you by net app welcome to the cube I'm Lisa Martin with Keith Townsend and we are in Orlando Florida that sa piece a fire now 2018 or in the net out booth really cool sa piece a fire is an enormous event this is like the 25th year they've been doing it and it's been really interesting to learn Keith about sa P and how they have really transformed and one of the things that's critical is their partner ecosystem so we're excited to welcome back to the cube a cube alumni Paul Young who is the director of sa P go to market from Google platform Paul it's nice to see you thanks so what is the current news with Google and sa P so you know I think we're making a major push into this three Marquette I think the the yesterday's announcements are we all still have a four tire buy on a server online but we also brought up capacity all the way up to 20 terabytes so we really can handle pretty much all the customer base at this point so on the one end that's good there is however a lot of other stuff we're doing in the AI space in the joint engineering space with SCP and and a lot of work we're doing in the make it a lot easier for SUV customers to adopt the cloud right and and beyond just what's happening a lot in the market right now which is you know 80 percent of the customers who mu and s pieces in the cloud just do straight lift and shift so there's no for momentum with a it's just ticking the box you're in the cloud we're doing a ton of work in engineering on our own and with SCP right now to make that a much more valuable journey for the customers so yeah I don't wake up in the morning at Google and think what am I going to do today it's you know it's a there's a lot of stuff going on so Paul let's not be shy that we've had you on the cube before and your ear s AP alone and as you look out at the hyper scalars the big cloud providers s ap more or less has a reference architecture for how to do cloud how to do s AP and a hyper scale of cloud but it's not just about that base capability when I when I talk to my phone I love asking Google questions when I look at you know capabilities like AI and tensor flow and machine learning that gets me excited just in general what as you looked out at the Haifa scalers what excited you about Google is specific as you we were s ap work to fall 3 so what's so exciting about Google I did I joke internally I was I was a customer of recipes for seven years I did 20 years of SVP and and yeah and and then woke up one morning and decided to go to Google yeah I do I get this question a lot on the yeah my conversation always is it wasn't based on the cafeteria food there are other things to join me across it seriously cuz in my last roll at scpi I was working with all three the hyper scalars and one of the questions I always got from SCP people is well they're all just the same right or and when you actually work with them you discover the are different and that's no disrespect to anyone but they approach the world differently they all have different business models and and the Google thing that really put me is that the the kind of engineering and the future focus was just tremendous right this other girl could do was was immense and so I said I'll jump forward to the future and then will come back but just if you look at the investment school was making in AI and machine learning all the stuff we were order a Google i/o with the the you know custom-built testable computers that can just do an amazing performance greatness or but it's got to be applied right so so things that partially built with Deloitte it's a deletion of the demonstration for it but just to give an example of where we think the future is we build a model in Nai where we have we basically two invoices and we taught the AI system to do data entry and SCP so that's not an interface we didn't say hey here's an invoice and here's all the fields and we map them all across and here's ETL and here's other things we do right here's our interface mapping we literally said imagine you're an AP processor how do you enter an invoice and you give it detail universities and it spends a lot of time doing really stupid things trying to put addresses in the number field of someone else and then suddenly it works so how to enter an invoice and at that point it knows how to enter an invoice and then what you do is you give it more and more invoices or more and more different structures and it learns how to what an invoice is and it learns how to process that and then suddenly it can do complete data entry right so we build as a model this is sort of thing Google does just to test the limits Deloitte came along and said well that's really cool could we actually take it and run it as a product and so the light now has that in there there are engineering further out where literally you can give it any invoice it will it's not OCR it will look at the invoice and it will work out that is an invoice where all the bits you need are from it it will then work out how you would do data entry on that into an SUV system and it will enter the invoice that's a future world where I know SUVs already launched the I our own doing three-way match interesting we're talking about future won't where your your entire accounts payable Department is a Gmail inbox where they mail you invoices that you've never seen before but we're able to understand what a vendor is grantee as a vendor guarantee is not fraud checked and do the deed to entry completely automatically that is the massive new world right and that's just a tiny little bit of what we can do at Google we have it just pretty also we haven't demo running on the booth where we have tensorflow looking at pure experience pharmaceuticals right right we have we have a demo run on the booth which is a graphic of someone we're actually running at customers where we have a camera reading pharmaceutical boxes as they go past or their pinky perfect curlers in this case but it doesn't just look at the box and say I count one box it reads the text on the box but it reads the text in the box was in noise from STP was supposed to be manufactured and it comes back and says well am I putting double-strength pills and single side boxes is this most legal have I mean sent the correct box is it you know is the packaging correct it also knows what a good box looks like and it learns what a damaged box looks like a nice packaging looks like an it knows how to reject them and again that level of technology where we can monitor all of your production lines and give you guarantee quality and pharmaceuticals anywhere else tell me six months ago anyone even imagined that was possible we're doing that right now all right that that ability to work with SCP because it's all integrated with SCP we're doing Depot of efficient that ability to deliver that sort of capability at the speed we deliver that is world-changing right well you know one of the things that I just kept imagining as you gwangsu the description of invoicing thankee was on a run of the day I'm a small business owner and these things are troublesome like you get in an invoice and I'm thinking you know I got a deal my my wife does the Council of payable accounts receivable I'm like there has to be a way to automate get but then I thought about just those challenges like you get one person says an invoice that the invoices at the bottom right hand corner the the invoice numbers on the bottom right hand corner the the amount due etcetera etc just really silly questions that AI should be AI machine learning should be able to deal with build mederma yesterday on stage says that AI should all been human capability and that's a great example of how a I augments you might take a bit and it doesn't in the AP example it doesn't do a hundred percent correct all the time right it knows what it's wrong in the example of Joey runs your seat comes up and says the dates wrong here I need to fix it so it's taken the it's taken the menial work out of the process and it's lighten people really add value in it but it's also a great example of the cloud at work and what it's supposed to do right again if all you do is take official SCP and drop it in the cloud you're just running in a different place if you get to a world where with Google we we don't expose your data to everybody else but we understand what the world's invoices look like and we have that knowledge and we make the entire world more efficient by having the model know how to work that's a radically better place right and that's that's that's there's just never been that value prop before and that's it's a great big exciting thing to wake up in the morning to think that's what we do right so Lisa in the industry we have this term that data has credit I think it's fairly safe at the this week we can say that processing technology compute has gravity it's we had another guest on it says that they use a process and a technology in solution and one customer works out fine and another customer not the same results it's this complexity is this kind of dish 'part of technology that is just not easy to apply across across companies so the other part really quickly that I want to talk about is you know this isn't just about AI right it's not just about the future I mean one of the key in me I said I'm a long-term HCV customer I work a lot of customers everybody wants to get to the cool bit you know and though I always used to joke internally everybody wants to eat candy they're ready vegetables first right and so we better get you across or you can candida vegetables whichever way you've got to eat both there's some point right so um so look just getting customers into the club becomes one of the challenges it's one of the other areas where we're really applying engineering so I'm three weeks ago we bought della Strada as an example Villa Stratos is an amazing company what well so it does basically it's a plug into VMware you drop it into VMware and it watches your SUV systems running it profiles them and it works out what size capacity you're going to need in the cloud at the point where it's then got enough information it'll basically ping you and say hey I know no I'm not a machine do you want exactly the same performance at lowest price in the cloud or do you want better performance here's two configurations pick the one you want give it your Google user ID and password it will build the security build the application servers and begin a migration for you automatically depending on the timing demand the size the box between 30 minutes and two hours later you will have a running version of your SCP system in the closet never been done before that's been performance the way it works basically it's a bit a little bit of magic but it knows how much what's the minimum amount of data we need to ship across through NSEP it knows where all the data is hidden on the box on the disk then sdb needs to run and it just ships that first and then it fills in the gaps afterwards the repair mechanism so from there on the one hand you could do lists and share and frankly our competitors have been using it to do lift and shift in the past it over some a ton of potential right for a bunch of customers we can replicate their production boxes in real time and give them 30-second RPO RTO in high availability but that done but it's like that I can now take that replicated image and I can run operations on it I can run tests on I can run QE rebuilds were you because of the Google pricing model you don't pay me in advance you pay me in arrears for only the computer time that you use so you are a QA system you've got two days worth of work to rebuild it don't shut down your QA system pay me for two days rebuild and you're done or we have integrated it directly into the SDP upgrade tools so you can pipe across your system to us and we will immediately do a test upgrade for you into s4 HANA or you see us rocky or BW an Hana whatever you want I have a customer in Canada who really jumped from ECC e6 and hazard by 5 to s4 Hana using an earlier version of the tools in 72 hours with a lot of gaps to look at in between we reckon we're gonna crush that down into under 24 hours so under 24 hours we can you can literally click on an SUV server and we will not just bring you to the cloud but we will upgrade you all the way to the latest version and we we have all the components we've done it we're pushing that through right and so what we're doing now is taken the hard work and automating that so we can get to the really cool stuff in the eye side right that's way again this is where all of us for all the hyper scalers hosts you know SV systems we want to do something that's better than that right we want to make it easy to get there but we know that in order to justify what you do we're all have seven your room app 2x or hard on right so we want to make it really easy to do that and we want to make it incredibly easy to add in AI and all the other technologies along the way that's a DES and a pricing model that nobody will be right and that's that's a pretty cool place to be I'm mighty glad to be a good place I could tell by your energy so ease of use everybody wants that you talked about just the example of invoices how they can vary so dramatically and you know whether you're a small business owner to a large enterprise there's so much complexity and and fact that was one of the things that was talked about it was this morning well yeah when how so plot I was even talking about naming conventions and how customers were starting to get confused with all of the different acquisitions SAT has done so a I what Google is doing with AI on sa piece sounds like a huge differentiator so tell us as we wrap up here what makes you know in a nutshell Google different than the other hyper scale that s AP partners with and specifically what excites you about going to market with s AP at the base level your Google's just on a different scale from everybody right we are effectively put 25% of the internet if you look at our own assets we we own dark fiber that's equivalent to about 4% of the entire caballo sorry four times the entire capacity of the Internet right MA so my ability to deliver to those customers at scale and up performance levels just unchallenged in this space so you know it's a Google clearly is excelled in a lot of different areas it's been credibly starting to bring that to SVP and carry through but you're right that the the the value add ultimately isn't just the hey I can I can run you and I can run you better write the value add is so March we announced direct innovation rihana and Google bigquery when you're talking about bigquery right massive datasets that you can know Bridge to Hana if you're a retailer this is one last example I can now join all the ad tech data Google has so I can tell you all the agile currently run in Google once we march was being viewed anonymized in clusters so you can't tell the original consumers but I know that data and directly worded to bigquery and I can join at stp so I can now say you are advertising in this area let's being clicked on but I know you don't have the inventory to actually support the advertising so I want you to move advertising somewhere else right and so I can do that manually rename when I had any I to that the potential is is incredible right we've only just started so ya know next time I want the cube we'll see where we're at but it's a it's a fun place to be speaking the next time gasps have a conference coming up Google next is coming up at the end of July yeah it's we have a lot of announcements through probably the rest of the year right there's a lot of stuff going on as we come to massive scale in the SUV space so yeah anyone who's interested in this stuff especially even if you're just interesting the I stuff Google next is the place to be so sounds like it I'm expecting some big things from that based on what you talked about on how enthusiastic you are about being at Google Paul thanks so much for joining Keith and me back on the cube and we look forward to talking to you again Thanks thank you for watching the cube Lisa Martin with Keith Townsend @s AP Safire 2018 thanks for watching

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for coverage of KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF CloudNative Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs. We're here with Kelsey Hightower, co-chair of the program as well as a staff engineer, developer, advocate, at Google Cloud Platform, a celebrity in the industry, dynamic, always great to have you on, welcome back. >> Awesome, good to be back. >> How are you feeling, tired? You've got the energy, day two? >> I'm good, I finished my keynote yesterday. My duties are done, so I get to enjoy the conference like most attendees. >> Great. Keynote was phenomenal, got good props. Great content format, very tight, moving things along. A little bit of a jab at some of the cloud providers. Someone said, "Oh, Kelsey took a jab at the cloud guys." What was that about, I mean, there was some good comments on Twitter, but, keeping it real. >> Honestly, so I work at a cloud provider, so I'm part of the cloud guys, right? So I'm at Google Cloud, and what I like to do is, and I was using Amazon's S3 in my presentation, and I was showing people basically like the dream of, in this case, serverless, here's how this stuff actually works together right now. We don't really need anything else from the cloud providers. Here's what you can do right now, so, I like to take a community perspective, When I'm on the stage, so I'm not here only to represent Google and sell for Google. I'm here to say, "Hey, here's what's possible," and my job is to kind of up-level the thinking. So that was kind of the goal of that particular presentation is like, here's all this stuff, let's not lock it all down to one particular provider, 'cause this is what we're here for, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, is about taking all of that stuff and standardizing it and making it accessible. >> And then obviously, people are talking about the outcome, that that's preferred right now in the future, which is a multi-cloud workload portability. Kubernetes is playing a very key role in obviously the dev ops, people who have been doing it for many many years, have eaten glass, spit nails, custom stuff, have put, reaped the benefits, but now they want to make it easy. They don't want to repeat that, so with Kubernetes nice formation, a lot of people saying here on theCUBE and in the hallways that a de facto standard, the word actually said multiple times here. Interesting. >> Yeah, so you got Kubernetes becoming the de facto standard for computes, but not events, not data, not the way you want to compute those events or data, so the job isn't complete. So I think Kubernetes will solve a large portion of compute needs, thumbs up, we're good to go. Linux has done this for the virtualization layer, Kubernetes is doing it for the containerization, but we don't quite have that on the serverless side. So it's important for us all to think about where the industry is going and so it's like, hey, where the industry is moving to, where we are now, but it's also important for us to get ahead of it, and also be a part of defining what the next de facto standard should be. >> And you mentioned community, which is important, because I want to just bring this up, there's a lot of startups in the membership of CNCF, and when you have that first piece done, you mentioned the other work to be done, that's an opportunity to differentiate. This is the commercialization opportunity to strike that balance. Your reaction to that, how do you see that playing out? Because it is an opportunity to create some value. >> Honestly I'm wearing a serverless.com T-shirt right now, right, that's the startup in the space. They're trying to make serverless easy to use for everyone, regardless of the platform. I think no matter what side of the field you stand on, we need these groups to be successful. They're independent companies, they're going for ambition, they're trying to fill the gaps in what we're all doing, so if they're successful, they just make a bigger market for everyone else, so this is why not only do we try to celebrate them, we try to give them this feedback, like, "Hey, here's what we're doing, "here's what the opportunities are," so I think we need them to be successful. If they all die out every time they start something, then we may not have people trying anymore. >> And I think there's actually a serverless seg in the CNCF, right? And I think that they're doing a lot of great work to kind of start to figure out what's going on. I mean, are you aware what those guys are up to? >> Exactly, so the keynote yesterday was largely about some of the work they're doing. So you mentioned the serverless seg, and CNCF. So some of the work that they're doing is called cloud events. But they wanted to standardize the way we take these events from the various providers, we're not going to make them all work the same way, but what we can do is capture those events in a standard way, and then help define a way to transport those between different providers if you will, and then how those responses come back. So at least we can start to standardize at least that part of the layer, and if Google offers you value, or Amazon offers you value, you own the data, and that data generates events, you can actually move it wherever you want, so that's the other piece, and I'm glad that they're getting in front of it. >> Well I think goal is, obviously, if I'm using AWS, and then I want to use Asher, and then I want to go to Google Cloud, or I want my development teams are using different components, and features, in all of them, right? You want to be able to have that portability across the cloud-- >> And we say together, so the key part of that demo was, if you're using one cloud provider for a certain service, in this case, I was using Google Translate to translate some data, but maybe your data lives in Amazon, the whole point was that, be notified that your data's in Amazon, so that it can be fired off an event into Google, function runs a translation, and writes the data back to Amazon. There are customers that actually do this today, right? There are different pieces of stacks that they want to be able to access, our goal is to make sure they can actually do that in a standard way, and then, show them how to do it. >> A lot of big buzz too also going on around Kubeflow, that Google co-chaired, or co-founded, and now part of the CNCF, Istio service meshes, again, this points to the dots that are connecting, which is okay, I got Kubernetes, we got containers, now Istio, what's your vision on that, how did that play out? An opportunity certainly to abstract the weights of complexity, what's your thoughts on Istio? >> So I think there's going to be certain things, things like Istio, there are parts of Istio that are very low level, that if done right, you may never see them. That's a good thing, so Istio comes in, and says, "Look, it's one thing to connect applications together, "which Kubernetes can help you do "with this built-in service discovery, "how does one app find the other app," but then it's another thing to lock down security and implement policy, this app can talk to this app under these conditions. Istio comes in, brings that to the playing field. Great, that's a great addition. Most people will probably wrap that in some higher-level platform, and you may never see it! Great! Then you mention Kubeflow, now this is a workflow, or at least an opinionated workflow, for doing machine-learning, or some analytics work. There's too many pieces! So if we start naming every single piece that you have to do, or we can say, "Look, we know there's a way that works, "we'll give it a name, we'll call it Kubeflow," and then what's going to happen there is the community's going to rally around actually more workflow, we have lots of great technology wrapped underneath all of that, but how should people use it? And I think that's what I'm actually happy to see now that we're in like year four or five of this thing, as people are actually talking about how to people leverage all of these things that fall below? >> As the IQ starts to increase with cloud-native, you're seeing enterprises, and there's levels of adoption, the early adopters, you know, the shiny new toy, are pushing the envelope, fast followers coming in, then you got the mainstream coming in, so mainstream, there's a lot of usage and consumption of containers, very comfortable with that, now they're bumping into Kubernetes, "Oh wow, this is great," different positions of the adoption. What's your message to each one, mainstream, fast followers, early adoptives, the early adoptives keep pushing, keep bringing that community together, form the community, fast forward. What's the position, what's the Kelsey Hightower view of each one of those points of the evolution? >> So I think we need a new model. So I think that model is kind of out now. Because if you look at the vendor relationships now, so the enterprise typically buys off the shelf when it's mature and ready to go. But at this point now, a lot of the library is all in the programming languages, if you see a language or library that you need, if it's on GitHub, you look around, it's like, "We're going to use this open-source library, "'cause we got to ship," right? So, they started doing early adoption maybe at the library level. Now you're starting to see it at the service level. So if I go to my partner or my vendor, and they say, "Hey, the new version of our software requires Kubernetes." Now, that's a little bit early for some of these enterprises to adopt, but now you're having the vendor relationship saying, "We will help you with Kubernetes." And also, a lot of these enterprises, it's early? Guess what, they have contributors to these projects. They helped design them. I remember back in the day, when I was in financial services, JPMC came out with their own messaging standard, so banks could communicate with each other. They gave that to Red Hat, and Red Hat turns it into a product, and now there's a new messaging standard. That kicked off ten years ago, and now we're starting to see these same enterprises contribute to Kubernetes. So I think now, there's a new model where, if it's early, enterprises are becoming the contributors, donating to the foundations, becoming members of things like CNCF, and on the flip side, they may still use their product, but they want a say in their future. >> So you can jump in at any level as a company, you don't need to wait for the mainstream, you can have a contributor, and in the front wave, to help shepherd through. >> Yeah, you need more say, I think when people bought typical enterprise software, if there wasn't a feature in there, you waited for the vendor to do it, the vendor comes up with their feature, and tells you it's going to cost another 200 million dollars for this add-on, and you have no say into the progress of it, or the speed of it. And then we moved to a world where there was APIs. Look, here's APIs, you can kind of build your own thing on top, now, the vendor's like, "You know what? "I'm going to help actually build the product that I rely on," so if vendor A is not my best partner right now, I could pick a different vendor and say, "Hey, I want a relationship, around this open-source "ecosystem, you have some features I like right now, "but I may want to able to modify them later." I think that's where we are right now. >> Well I think also the emergence of open-source offices, and things like that, and, you know, enterprises that are more monolithic, have really helped to move things forward with their users and their developers. I'm seeing a lot of folks here that are actually coming from larger companies inside of Europe, and they're actually trying to learn Kubernetes now, and they are here to bring that back into their companies, that they want to know about what's going on, right? >> That's a good observation-- >> It's great. >> That open-source office is replacing the I'm the vendor management person. >> Well you need legal-- >> Exactly. >> And you need all of those folks to just get the checkmarks, and get the approval, so that folks can actually take code in, and if it's under the right license, which is super important, or put code back out. >> And it seemed to be some of the same people that were managing the IBM relationship. The people that were managing the big vendor relationship, right? This thing's going to cost us all this cash, we got to make sure that we're getting the right, we're complying with the licensing model, that we're not using more than we paid for, in case we get an audit, the same group has some of the similar skills needed to shepherd their way through the open-source landscape, and then, in many cases, hiring in some of those core developers, to sit right in the organization, to give back, and to kind of have that first-tier support. >> That's a really good point, Lauren. I think this is why I think CNCF has been so successful is, they've kind of established the guardrails, and kind of the cultural notion of commercializing, while not foregoing the principles of open-source, so the operationalizing of open-source is really huge-- >> I'm kind of laughing over here, because, I started the open-source organization at Cisco, and Cisco was not, was new to open-source, and we had to put open data into the Linux Foundation, and I just remember the months of calls I was on, and the lawyers that I got to know, and-- >> You got scar tissue to prove it, too. >> I do, and I think when we did CNCF, I was talking to Craig years ago when we kind of kicked that off, it was really something that we wanted to do differently, we wanted to fast track it, we had the exact license that we wanted, we had the players that we wanted, and we really wanted to have this be something community-based, which I think, Kelsey, you've said it right there. It's really the communities that are coming together that you're seeing here. What else are you seeing here? What are the interesting projects that you see, that are kind of popping up, we have some, but are there others that you see? >> Well, so now, these same enterprises, now they have the talent, or at least not letting the talent leave, the talent now is like, "Well, we have an idea, and it's not core "to our business, let's open-source it." So, Intuit just inquired this workflow, small little start-up project, Argo, they're Intuit now, and maybe they had a need internally, suck in the right people, let the project continue, throw that Intuit logo there, and then sometimes you just see tools that are just being built internally, also be product ties from this open-source perspective, and it's a good way for these companies to stay engaged, and also to say, "Hey, if we're having this problem, "so are other people," so this is new, right? This open-source usually comes from the vendors, maybe a small group of developers, but now you're starting to see the companies say, "You know what, let's open-source our tool as well," and it's really interesting, because also they're pretty mature. They've been banked, they've been used, they're real, someone depends on them, and they're out. Interesting to see where that goes. >> Well yeah, Derek Hondell, from VMware, former Linux early guy, brought the same question. He says, "Don't confuse project with product." And to your point about being involved in the project, you can still productize, and then still have that dual relationship in a positive way, that's really a key point. >> Exactly, we're all learning how to share, and we're learning what to share. >> Okay, well let's do some self awareness here, well, for you, program's great, give you some props on that, you did a great job, you guys are the team, lot of high marks, question marks that are here that we've heard is security. Obviously, love Kubernetes, everyone's high-fiving each other, got to get back to work to reality, security is a conversation. Your thoughts on how that's evolving, obviously, this is front and center conversation, with all this service meshes and all these new services coming up, security is now being fought in the front end of this. What's your view? >> So I think the problem with security from certain people is that they believe that a product will come out that they can buy, to do security. Every time some new platform, oh, virtualization security. Java security. Any buzzword, then someone tries to attach security. >> It's a bolt-on. >> It's, yeah. So, I mean, most people think it's a practice. The last stuff that I seen on security space still applies to the new stack, it's not that the practice changed. Some of the threat models are the same, maybe some new threat models come up, or new threat models are aggravated because of the way people are using these platforms. But I think a lot of companies have never understood that. It's a practice, it will never be solved, there's nothing you can buy or subscribe to-- >> Not a silver bullet. >> Like antivirus, right? I'm only going to buy antivirus, as long as I run it, I should never get a virus. It's like, "No!" That's not how that works. The antivirus will be able to find things it knows about. And then you have to have good behavior to prevent having a problem in the first place. And I think security should be the same way, so I think what people need to do now, is they're being forced back into the practice of security. >> John: Security everywhere, basically. >> It's just a thing you have to do no matter what, and I think what people have to start doing with this conversation is saying, "If I adopt Kubernetes, does my threat model change?" "Does the container change the way I've locked down the VM?" In some cases, no, in some cases, yes. So I think when we start to have these conversations, everyone needs to understand the question you should ask of everyone, "What threat model should I be worried about, "and if it's something that I don't understand or know," that's when you might want to go look for a vendor, or go get some more training to figure out how you can solve it. >> And I think, Tyler Jewell was on from Ballerina, and he was talking about that yesterday, in terms of how they actually won't, they assume that the code is not secure. That is the first thing that they do when they're looking at Ballerina in their programming language, and how they actually accept code into it, is just they assume it's not secure. >> Oh exactly, like at Google we had a thing, we called it BeyondCorp. And there's other aspects to that, if you assume that it's going to be bad if someone was inside of your network, then pretend that someone is already inside your network and act accordingly. >> Yep, exactly, it's almost the reverse of the whitelisting. Alright, so let me ask you a question, you're in a unique position, glad to have you here on theCUBE, thanks for coming on and sharing your insights and perspective, but you also are the co-chair of this progress, so you get to see the landscape, you see the 20 mile stare, you have to have that long view, you also work at Google, which gives a perspective of things like BeyondCorp, and all of the large-scale work at Google, a lot of people want to, they're buying into the cloud-native, no doubt about it, there's still some educational work on the peoples' side, and process, and operationalizing it, with open-source, et cetera, but they want to know where the headroom is, they want to know, as you said, where's the directionally correct vector of the industry. So I got to ask you, in your perspective, where's all this going? For the folks watching who just want to have a navigation, paint the picture, what's coming directionally, shoot the arrow forward, as service meshes, as you start having this service layer, highly valuable, creative freedom to do things, what's the Kelsey vision on-- >> So I think this world of computing, after the mainframe, the mainframe, you want to process census data, you walk up, give it, it spits it back out. To me, that is beautiful. That's like almost the ultimate developer workflow. In, out. Then everyone's like, "I want my own computer, "and I want my own programming language, "and I want to write it in my basement, "without the proper power, or cords, or everything, "and we're all going to learn how "to do computing from scratch." And we all learnt, and we have what we call a legacy. All the mistakes I've made, but I maintain, and that's what we have! But the ultimate goal of computing is like the calculator, I want to be able to have a very simple interface, and the computer should give me an answer back. So where all this is going, Istio, service mesh, Kubernetes, cloud-native, all these patterns. Here's my app, run it for me. Don't ask me about auto scale groups, and all, run it for me. Give me a security certificate by default. Let's encrypt. Makes it super easy for anyone to get a tailored certificate rotated to all the right things. So we're slowly getting to a world where you can ask the question, "Here's my app, run it for me," and they say, "Here's the URL, "and when you hit this URL, we're going to do "everything that we've learned in the past "to make it secure, scalable, work for you." So that may be called open-shift, in its current implementation with Red Hat, Amazon may call it Lambda, Google Cloud may call it GKE plus some services, and we're never going to stop until the experience becomes, "Here's my app, run it for me." >> A resource pool, just programmability. And it's good, I think the enterprises are used to lifting and shifting, I mean, we've been through the evolution of IT, as we build the legacy, okay, consolidation, server consolidation, oh, hello VMs, now you have lift and shift. This is not a lift and shift kind of concept, cloud-native. It is a-- >> It doesn't have to be a lift and shift. So some people are trying to make it a lift and shift thing, where they say, "Look, you can bolt-on some of the stuff "that you're seeing in the new," and some consultants are like, "Hey, we'll sit their and roll up the sleeves, "and give you what we can," and I think that's an independent thing from where we're pushing towards. If you're ready, there's going to be a world, where you give us your code, and we run it, and it's scary for a lot of people, because they're going to be like, "Well, what do I do?" "What knobs do I twist in that world?" So I think that's just, that's where it's going. >> Well, in a world of millions of services coming out on the line, it's in operating, automation's got to be key, these are principles that have to go get bought into. I mean, you got to understand, administration is the exception, not the rule. This is the new world. It's kind of the Google world, and large-scale world, so it could be scary for some. I mean, you just bump into people all the time, "Hey Kelsey, what do I do?" And what do you say to them? You say, "Hey, what do I do?" What's the playbook? >> Often, so, it's early enough. I wasn't born in the mainframe time. So I'm born in this time. And right now when you look at this, it's like, well, this is your actual opportunity to contribute to what it should do. So if you want to sit on the sidelines, 'cause we're in that period now, where that isn't the case. And everyone right now is trying to figure out how to make it the case, so they're going to come up with their ways of doing things, and their standards, and then maybe in about ten years, you'll be asked to just use what we've all produced. Or, since you're actually around early enough, you can participate. That's what I tell people, so if you don't want to participate, then you get the checkpoints along the way. Here's what we offer, here's what they offer, you pick one, and then you stay on this digital transformation to the end of time. Or, you jump in, and realize that you're going to have a little bit more control over the way you operate in this landscape. >> Well, jumping in the deep end of the pool has always been the philosophy, get in and learn, and you'll survive, with a lot of community support, Kelsey, thanks for coming on, final question for you, surprise is, you're no longer going to be the co-chair, you've co-chaired up to this point, you've done a great job, what surprised you about KubeCon, the growth, the people? What are some of the things that have jumped out at you, either good, surprise, what you did expect, not expect, share some commentary on this movement, KubeCon and CloudNative. >> Definitely surprised that it's probably this big this fast, right? I thought people, definitely when I saw the technology earlier on, I was like, "This is definitely a winner," "regardless of who agrees." So, I knew that early on. But to be this big, this fast, and all the cloud providers agreeing to use it and sell it, that is a surprise, I figured one or two would do it. But to have all of them, if you go to their website, and you read the words Kubernetes' strong competitors, well alright, we all agree that Kubernetes is okay. That to me is a surprise that they're here, they have booths, they're celebrating it, they're all innovating on it, and honestly, this is one of those situations that, no matter how fast they move, everyone ends up winning on this particular deal, just the way Kubernetes was set up, and the foundation as a whole, that to me is surprising that it's still true, four years later. >> Yeah, I mean rising tide floats all boats, when you have an enabling, disruptive technology like Kubernetes, that enables people to be successful, there's enough cake to be eating for everybody. >> Awesome. >> Kelsey Hightower, big time influencer here, inside theCUBE cloud, computing influencer, also works at Google as a developer advocate, also co-chair of KubeCon 2018, I wish you luck in the next chapter, stepping down from the co-chair role-- >> Stepping down from the co-chair, but always in the community. >> Always in the community. Great voice, great guy to have on theCUBE, check him out online, his great Twitter feed, check him out on Twitter, Kelsey Hightower, here on theCUBE, I'm joined here by Lauren Cooney, be right back with more coverage here at KubeCon 2018, stay with us, we'll be right back. (bright electronic music)

>> Welcome to our presentation here at VM World 2017. I'm John Furrier, co-host of The Cube, with Dave Vellante who's taking a lunch break. We are at VM World on the ground on the floor where we have Google's vice president of product management developer platforms Sam Ramji. Welcome to The Cube conversation. >> Great, thank you very much John. >> So you had a keynote this morning. You know, came up on stage, big announcement. Let's get right to it. That container as a service from Pivotal, VM Ware, and Google announced kind of a joint announcement. It was kind of weird. It wasn't a fully joint but it really came from Pivotal. Clarify what the announcement was. >> Sure, so what we announced is the result of a bunch of co-engineering that we've been doing in the open source with Pivotal around kubernetes running on bosh. So, if you've been paying attention to cloud foundry, you'd know that cloud foundry is the runtime layer and there's something called bosh sitting underneath it that does the cluster management and cluster operations. Pivotal is bringing that to commercial GA later this year. So what we announced with Pivotal and VMWare is that we're going to have cost incompatibility between Pivotal's kubernetes and Google's kubernetes. Google's kubernetes service is called Google Container Engine Pivotal's offering is called Pivotal Container Service. The big deal here is that PKS is going to be the standard way that you can get kubernetes from any of the Dell Group companies, whether that's VMWare, EMC. That gives us one consistent target for compatibility because one of the things that I pointed out in the keynote was inconsistency is the enemy in the data center. That's what makes operations difficult. >> And Kubo was announced at Cloud Foundry, Stu Miniman covered it, but that wasn't commercially available. That's the nuance, right? >> That's right, and that still is available in the open source. So what we've committed to is, we've said, every time that we update Google Container Engine, Pivotal Container Service is also going to update, so we have constant compatibility, that that's delivered on top of VMWare's infrastructure including NSX for networking and then the final twist is a big reason why people choose Google Cloud is because of our services. So Big Table, Big Query, a dynamically scaling data warehouse that we run an enormous amount of Google workloads on. Spanner, right. Which is why all of your data is consisted globally across Google's planet scaled data centers. And finally, all of our new machine learning and AI investments, those services will be delivered down to Pivotal Container Service, right, that's going to be there out of the box at launch and we'll keep adding to that catalog. >> It's just that Google Next was a lot of conversations, Oh Google's catching up to Amazon, Amazon's done a great job no doubt about it. We love Amazon. Andy Jassy was here as well. >> Super capable very competent engineering team. >> There's a lot of workloads in VMWare community that runs on AWS but it's not the only game in town. Jerry Chen, investor in Docker, friend of ours, we know, called this years ago. It's not going to be a one cloud winner take all game. Clearly. But there's the big three lining up, AWS, Microsoft, Google, you guys are doing great. So I got to ask you, what is the biggest misconception that people have about Google Cloud out in the market? 'Cause a lot of enterprises are used to running ops, maybe not as much dev as there is ops, and dev ops comes in with cloud native, there's a lot of confusion, what is the thing that you'd like to clarify about Google that they may not know about? >> The single most important thing to clarify about Google Cloud is our strategy is open-hybrid cloud. We think that we are in an amazing place to run workloads, we also recognize that compute belongs everywhere. We think that the durable state of computing is more of a mosaic than a uni-directional arrow that says everything goes to cloud. We think you want to run your containers and your VM's in clouds. We think you want to run them in your data centers. We also think you want to move them around. So we've been diehard committed to building out the open-source projects, the protocols to let all of that information flow, and then providing services that can get anywhere. So open-hybrid cloud is the strategy, and that's what we've committed to with kubernetes, with tensorflow, with apache beam, with so much of the open-source that we've contributed to Linux and others, and then maintaining open standards compatibility for our services. >> Well, it's great to see you at Google because I know your history, great open source guy, you know open source, it's been really part of your life, and bringing that to Google's great, so congratulations. >> There's a reason for that though, it's pragmatic. This is not a crazy crusade. The value of open source is giving control to the customer. And I think that the most ethical way that you can build businesses and markets is based on customer choice. Giving them the ability to move to where they want. Reducing their costs of switching. If they stay with you, then you're really producing a value-added service. So I've spent time in the operator shoes, in the developer shoes, and in the vendor shoes. When I've spent time buying and running the software on my own, I really always valued and preferred things that would let me move my stuff around. I preferred open source. So that's really the method to the madness here. It's not about opening everything up insanely, giving everything away. It serves customers better and in the long run, the better you serve customers, you'll build a winning business. >> We're here on the ground floor at VMWorld 2017 in Las Vegas, where behind us is the VM Village. And obviously Sam was on stage with the big announcement with Pivotal VMWare. And this is kind of important now, we got to debate now, usually I'm not the contrarian in the group, I'm usually the guy who's like yeah, rah rah, entrepreneurial, optimistic, yeah we can do that! You know that future's here, go to the future! But I was kind of skeptical and I told VMWare and I saw Pat Gelsinger and Michael Dell in the hallways and I'm like, they thought this was going to be the big announcement, and it was their big announcement, but I was kind of like, guys, I mean, it's the long game, these guys in the VMWare community, their operations guys, their not going to connect the dots and there was kind of an applause but not a standing ovation that Google would've gotten at a Google Next conference where the geeks would've been like going crazy. What is the operational dynamic that you're seeing in this market that Google's looking at and bringing value to, so that's the question for you. >> This is what the big change in the industry is is going from only worrying about increasing application velocity to figuring out how to do that with reliability. So there's a whole community of operators that I think many of us have left behind as we've talked about clouds and cloud data. We've done a great job of appealing to developers, enabling them to be more productive, but with operators, we've kind of said, well, your mileage may vary or we don't have time for you, or you have to figure it out yourself. I think the next big phase in adoption of cloud native technology is to say, first of all, open-hybrid, run your stuff wherever you want. >> Well you've got to have experience running cloud. Now you bring that knowledge out here. >> And that's the next piece. How do we offer you the tools and the skills that you need as an operator to have that same consistency, those same guarantees you used to have, and move everything forward in the future? Because if you turn one audience, one community, into the bad people who are holding everything back, that's a losing proposition, you have to give everybody a path to win, right? Everybody wants to be the good guy. So I think, now we need to start paying really close attention to operators and be approachable, right? I would like to see GCP become the most approachable cloud. We're already well known as the most advanced cloud. But can we be the easiest to adopt as well, and that's our challenge, to get the experience. >> You got to get that touch, that these enterprise teams historically have had, but it's interesting I mean, the mosaic you'd mentioned requires some unification, right? You got to be likable. You got to be approachable. And that's where you guys are going, I know you guys are building out for that, but the question is, for you, because Google has a lot of experience, and I know from personal knowledge Google's depth of people and talent, not always the cleanest execution out to the market in terms of the front-facing white glove service that some of these other companies have done, but you guys are certainly strong. >> Well, I think this is where Diane Greene has been driving the transformation, I mean like, she breathes, eats, sleeps, dreams enterprise. So, being both a board member at Google and being the SVP of Google Cloud, she's really bringing the discipline to say, you know, white glove service is mandatory. We have a pretty substantial professional services organization and building out partnerships with Accenture, with PWC, with Deloitte, with everyone to make sure that these things are all serviceable and properly packaged all the way down to the end user. So, no doubt there's more, more room for us to improve, there's miles to go on the journey, but the focus and the drive to make sure that we're delivering the enterprise requirements, Dianne never lets us stop thinking about that. >> It's like math, right, the order of operations is super important, and there's a lot of stuff going on in the cloud right now that's complex. >> Yes. >> Ease of use is the number one thing that we're hearing, because one, it's a moving a train in general, right? But the cloud's growing, a lot of complexity, how do you guys view that? And the question I want to ask you is, we know what cloud looks like today. Amazon, they're doing great. Multi-horse race if you will. But in 2022, the expectations and what it looks like then is going to be completely different, if you just take the trajectory of what's happening. So cleaning up kubernetes, making that a manageable, all the self updates, makes a lot of sense, and I think that's the dots no one's connecting here, I get the long game, but what's the customer's view in your opinion as someone who's sitting back and with the Google perch looking out over the horizon, 2022, what's it like for the customer? >> That's an outstanding question. So I think, 2022, looking back, we've actually absorbed so much of this complexity that we can provide ease of use to every workload and to every segment. Backing into that, ease of use looks different, like, let's think about tooling, ease of use looks different to an electrician verus a carpenter versus a plumber. They're doing different jobs, they need different tools, so I think about those as different audiences and different workloads. So if you're trying to migrate virtual machines to a cloud, ease of use means a thing and it includes taking care of the networking layer, how do we make sure that our cloud network shows up like an on premises network, and you don't have to set up some weird VPC configuration, how can those just look like part of your LAN subject to your same security controls. That's a whole path of engineering for a particular division of the company. For a different division of the company focused on databases ease of use is wow, I've got this enormous database, I'm straining at the edges, how do I move that to the cloud? Well, what kind of database is it, right? Is it a SQL database? Is it a NoSQL database? So engineering that in, that's the key. The other thing that we have to do for ease of use is upscaling. So a lot of things that we talked about before are the need to drive IT efficiency through automation. But who's going to teach people how to do the automation especially while they're being held to a very high SLA standard for their own data center and held to a high standard for velocity movement to the cloud. This is where Google has invented a discipline called SRE or site reliability engineering, and it's basically the meta discipline around what many people call dev ops. We think that this is absolutely teachable, it's learnable, it's becoming a growing community. You can get O'Reilly books on the topics. So I think we have an accountability to the industry to go and teach every operator and every operating group, hey here's what SRE looks like, some of your folks might want to do this, because that will give you the lift to make all of these workloads much easier to manage 'cause it's not just about velocity, it's also about reliability. >> It's interesting, we've got about a minute left or so. I'm just going to get your thoughts on this because you've certainly seen it on the developer side, stack wars, whatever you want to call them, the my stack runs this tech, but last night I heard in the hallway here multiple times the general consensus of two stacks coming together, not just software stacks, hardware stacks, you're seeing things that have never run together or been tested together before. So the site reliability is a very interesting concept and developers get pissed off when stacks don't work, right? So this is a super kind of nuance in this new use case that are emerging because stuff's happened that's never been done before. >> Yeah, so this is where the common tutorials get really interesting, especially as we build out a planetary scale computer at Google. Right, we're no longer thinking about how does the GPU as part of your daughter board, we think about what about racks of GPU's as part of your datacenters using NVDIA K80's, what does it mean to have 180 teraflops of tensor processing capability in a cloud TPU. So getting container centric is crucial and making it really easy to attach to all of those devices by having open source drivers making sure they're all Linux compatible and developers can get to them is going to be part of the substrate to make sure that application developers can target those devices, operators can set a policy that say, yes, I want this to deploy preferentially to environments with a TPU or a GPU and that the whole system can just work and be operable. >> Great, Sam thanks so much for taking the time to stop by. One on one conversation with Sam Ramji who's a Google Cloud, he's a vice president of product management and developer platforms for Google. We'll see you at Google Next. Thanks for spending the time. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. >> Thank you John.

>> Announcer: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube. Covering Red Hat Summit 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat. (futuristic tone) >> Welcome back to the Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host Stu Miniman. We are welcoming right now Sam Ramji. He is the Vice President of Product Management Google Cloud Platforms. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you, Rebecca, really appreciate it. And Stu good to see you again. >> So in your keynote, you talked about how this is the age of the developer. You said this is the best time in history to be a developer. We have more veneration, more cred in the industry. People get us, people respect us. And yet you also talked about how it is also the most challenging time to be a developer. Can you unpack that a little bit for our viewers? >> Yeah, absolutely. So I think there's two parts that make it really difficult. One is just the velocity of all the different pieces, how fast they're moving, right? How do you stay on top of all the different latest technology, right? How do you unpack all of the new buzzwords? How do you say this is a cloud, that's not a cloud? So you're constantly racing to keep up, but you're also maintaining all of your old systems, which is the other part that makes it so complex. Many old systems weren't built for modernization. They were just kind of like hey, this is a really cool thing, and they were built without any sense of the history, or the future that they'd be used in. So imagine the modern enterprise developer who's got a ship software at high rates of speed, support new business initiatives, they've got to deliver innovation, and they have to bridge the very new with the very old. Because if your mobile app doesn't talk to your mainframe, you are not going to move money. It's that simple. There's layers of technology architecture. In fact, you could think of it as technology archeology, as I mentioned in the keynote, right, this we don't want to create a new genre of people called programmer archeologists, who have to go-- >> I'm picturing them just chipping away. >> Sam: I don't think it'll be as exciting as Indiana Jones. >> No. >> Digging through layers of the stack is not really what people want to be doing with their time. >> Sam: Temple of the lost kernel. >> I love it. >> So Sam, it's interesting to kind of see, I was at the Google Cloud event a couple months ago, and here you bring up the term open cloud, which part of me wants to poke a hole in that and be like, come on, everybody has their cloud. Come on, you want to lock everybody in, you've got the best technology, therefore why isn't it just being open because it's great to say open and maybe people will trust you. Help explain that. >> Puppies, freedom, apple pie, motherhood, right. >> Stu: Yeah, yeah. (laughs) >> So there's a couple sides to that. One, we think the cloud is just a spectacular opportunity. We think about 1.2 trillion dollars in current spend will end up in cloud. And the cloud market depending on how you measure it is in the mid 20 billions today. So there's just unbounded upside. So we don't have to be a aspirational monopolist in order to be a successful business. And in fact, if you wind the clock forward, you will see that every market ends up breaking down into a closed system and a closed company, and an open platform. And the open platforms tend to grow more slowly, sort of exponential versus logarithmic, is how we think about it. So it's a pragmatic business strategy. Think about Linux in '97. Think about Linux in 2002. Think about Linux in 2007. Think about Linux in 2012. Think about Linux today. Look at that rate. It's the only thing that you're going to use. So open is very pragmatic that way. It's pragmatic in another direction which is customer choice. Customers are going to come for things that give them more options. Because your job is to future proof your business, to create what in the financial community call optionality. So how do you get that? In 2011, about eight other people and I created a nonprofit called the Open Cloud Initiative. And the Initiative is long since dead, we didn't fund it right, we kind of got these ideas baked, and then moved on. >> Stu: There's another OCI now. >> That's right, it's the Open Container Initiative. But we had three really crisp concepts there. We said number one, an open cloud will be based on open source. There won't be stuff that you can't get, can't replicate, can't build yourself. Second, we said, it'll have open access. There'll be no barriers to entry or exit. There won't be any discrimination on which users can or can't come in, and there won't be any blockers to being able to take your stuff out. 'Cause we felt that without open access, the cloud would be unsafe at any speed, to borrow a quote from Ralph Nader. And then third, built on an open ecosystem. So if you are assuming that you have to be able to be open to tens of thousands of different ideas, tens of thousands of different software applications, which are maybe database infrastructure, things that as a cloud provider, you might want to be a first party provider of. Well those things have to compete, or trade off or enrich each other in a consistent way, in a way that's fair, which is kind of what we mean when we say open ecosystem, but being able to be pulled through is going to give you that rate of change that you need to be exponential rather than logarithmic. So it's based on some fairly durable concepts, but I welcome you to poke holes in it. >> So we did an event with MIT a little while back. We had Marshall Van Alstyne, professor at BU who I know you know. He's an advisor at Cloud Foundry, and he talked about those platforms and it was interesting, you know, with the phone system you had Apple who got lots of the money, smaller market share as opposed to Android, which of course comes out of Google, has all of the adoption but less revenue. So, not sure it's this, yeah. >> Interestingly, we've run those curves, and you kind of see that same logarithmic versus exponential shift happening in Android. So we've seen, I don't have the latest numbers on the top of my head, but that is generating billions of dollars of third party revenue now. So share does shift over time in favor of openness and faster innovation. >> So let's bring it back to Red Hat here, because if I talk to all the big public cloud guys, Microsoft has embraced open source. >> And they're not just guys, actually, there's lots of women. >> Rebecca: Yes, thank you. >> Stu: I apologize. >> Sorry, I'm in a little bit of a jam here, where I'm trying to tell people the collective noun for technologists is not guys. >> Stu: Okay. >> It could be people, it could be folks, internally we use squirrels from time to time, just to invite people in. >> So, when I talk to the cloud squirrels, Microsoft has embraced open source. Amazon has an interesting relationship. >> I was there when that happened. >> You and I both know the people that they've brought in who have very good credibility in the open source community that are helping out Amazon there. Is it Kubernetes that makes you open because I look at what Red Hat's doing, we say okay, if I want to be able to live across many clouds or in my own data centers, Kubernetes is a layer to do that. It comes back to some of the things like Cloud Foundry. Is that what makes it open because I have choice, or is there more to it that you want to cover from an open cloud standpoint, from a Google standpoint? >> Open and choice effectively is a spectrum of effort. If it's incredibly difficult, it's the same as not having a choice. If it's incredibly easy, then you're saying actually, you really are free to come and go. So Kubernetes is kind of the brightest star in the solar system of open cloud. There's a lot of other technologies, new things that are coming out, like istio and pluri. I don't want to lose you in word soup. Linker D, container D, a lot of other things, because this is a whole new field, a whole fabric that has to come to bear, that just like the internet, can layer on top of your existing data centers or your existing clouds, that you can have other applications or other capabilities layered on top of it. So this permission-less innovation idea is getting reborn in the cloud era, not on top of TCP/IP, we take that for granted, but on top of Kubernetes and all of the linked projects. So yeah, that's a big part of it. >> I want to continue on with that idea of permission-less innovation and talk about the culture of open source, particularly because of what you were saying in the keynote about how it's not about the code, it's about the community. And you were using words like empathy and trust, and things that we don't necessarily think of as synonymous with engineers. >> Sam: Isn't it? >> So, can you just talk a little bit about how you've seen the culture change, particularly since your days at Microsoft, and now being at Google, in terms of how people are working together? >> Absolutely, so the first thing is why did it change? It became an economic imperative. Let's look at software industry competition back in the 90s. In general, the biggest got the mostest. If you could assemble the largest number of very intelligent engineers, and put them all on the same project, you would overwhelm your competition. So we saw that play out again and again. Then this new form of collaboration came around, not just birthed by Linux, but also Apache and a number of other things, where it's like oh, we don't have to work for the same company in order to collaborate. And all of a sudden we started seeing those masses grow as big as the number of engineers who went a single company. Ten thousand people, ten thousand engineers, share the copyright to the Linux kernel. At no point have they worked at the same company. At no point could a company have afforded to get all of them together. So this economic imperative that marks what I think of as the first half of the thirty years of open source that we've been in. The second half has been more us all waking up, and realizing open source has got to be inclusive. A diverse world needs diverse solutions built by diverse people. How do we increase our empathy? How do we increase our understanding so that we can collaborate? Because if we think each other is a jerk, if we get turned off of building our great ideas into software because some community member has said something that's just fundamentally not cool, or deeply hurtful, we are human beings and we do take our toys away, and say I'm not going to be there. >> That's the crux of it too. >> It's absolutely a cutthroat industry, but I think one of the things I'm seeing, I've been in Silicon Valley for 22 years, less three years for a stint at Microsoft, I've actually started to see the community become more self-reflective and like, if we can have cutthroat competition in corporations, we don't have to make that personal. 'Cause every likelihood of open source projects is you're employed as a professional engineer at a company, and that employment agreement might change. Especially in containers, right? Great container developers you'll see they move from one company to another, whether it's a giant company like Google, or whether it's a big startup like Docker, or any range of companies. Or Red Hat. So, this sort of general sense that there is a community is starting to help us make better open source, and you can't be effective in a community if you don't have empathy and you don't start focusing on understanding code of conduct community norms. >> Sam, I'm curious how you look at this spectrum of with this complexity out there, how much will your average customer, and you can segment it anywhere you want, but they say, okay I'm going to engage with this, do open source, get involved, and what spectrum of customers are going to be like, well, let me just run it on Google because you've got a great platform, I'm not going to have Google engineers and you guys have lots of smart people that can do that in any of the platform. How do you see that spectrum of customer, is it by what their business IT needs are, is it the size of the customer, is there a decision tree that you guys have worked out yet to try to help end users with what do they own, what do they outsource? It's in clouds more than outsourcing these days. The deal of outsourcing was your mess for less, and this should be somewhat more transformational and hopefully more business value, right? >> Yeah, Urs Hölzle, who's our SVP of Technical Infrastructure, says, the cloud is not a co-location facility. It is different, it is not your server that you shipped up and you know, ran. It's an integrated set of services that should make it incredibly easy to do computing. And we have tons of very intelligent women and men operating our cloud. We think about things like how do you balance velocity and reliability? We have a discipline called site reliability engineering. We've published a book on it, a community is growing up around that, it's sort of the mainstream version of dev ops. So there are a bunch of components that any company at any size can adopt, as long as you need both velocity and reliability. This has always been the tyranny of the or. If I can move fast I can break things, but even Mark Zuckerberg recently said you know, move fast and break fewer things. Kind of a shift, 'cause you don't want to break a lot of people's experience. How do you do that, while making sure that you have high reliability? It really defies simple classification. We have seen companies from startups to mom and pop shops, all the way to giant enterprises adopting cloud, adopting Google cloud platform. One of the big draws is of course, data analytics. Google is a deeply data intensive business, and we've taken that to eleven basically with machine learning, which is why it was so important to explain tense or flow, offer that as open source, and be able to move AI forward. Any company, at any size that wants to do high speed, high scale data analytics, is coming to GCP. We've seen it basically break down into, what's the business value, how close is it to the decision maker, and how motivated is an engineer to learn something different and give cloud a try. >> Because the engineer has to get better at working with the data, understanding the data, and deriving the right insights from the data. >> You're exactly right. Engineers are people, and people need to learn, and they need to be motivated to change. >> Sam, last question I have for you is, you've been involved in many different projects. We look at from the outside and say, okay, how much should be company driven, how much does a foundation get involved? We've seen certain foundations that have done very well, and others that have struggled. It's very interesting to watch Google. We'd give you good as we've talked on the Cube so far. Kubernetes seems to be going well. Great adoption. Google participates, but not too much, and Red Hat I think would agree with that. So congratulations on that piece. >> Sam: Thank you. >> What's your learnings that you've had as you've been involved in some of these various initiatives, couple foundations. We interviewed you when you were back at the Cloud Foundry, and things like that, so, what have you learned that you might want to say, hey, here's some guidelines. >> Yeah, so I think the first guideline is the core of a foundation is, the core purpose of a foundation is bootstrapping trust. So where trust is missing, then you will need that in order to create better contribution and higher velocity in the project. If there's trust there, if there's a benevolent dictator and everyone says that person's fine or that company's fine, then you won't necessarily need a foundation. You've seen a lot of changes in open source startups, dot coms that are also a dot org, shifting to models where you say well, this thing is actually so big it needs to not be owned by any one company. And therefore, to get the next level of contribution, we need to be able to bring in giant companies, then we create trust at that next level. So foundations are really there for trust. It's really important to be strong enough to get something off the ground, and this is the challenge we had at Cloud Foundry, it was a VMware project and then a Pivotal project, and many people believe this is great open source, but it's not an open community, but the technology had to keep working really well. So we how do we have a majority contributor, and start opening up, in a thoughtful process and bringing people in, until you can say what our target is to have the main contributor be less than 50% of the code commits. 'Cause then the majority is really coming from the community. Other projects that have been around for longer, maybe they started out with no majority. Those organizations, those projects tend to be self-organizing, and what they need is just a foundation to build a place that people can contribute money to, so the community can have events. So there's two very different types of organizations. One's almost like a charity, to say I really care about this popular open source project, and I want to be able to give something back, and others are more like a trade association, which is like, we need to enable very complex coordination between big companies that have a lot at stake, in which case you'll create a different class of foundation. >> Great, well Sam Ramji, thank you so much for being with us here on the Cube. I'm Rebecca Knight, and for your host Stu Miniman, please join us back in a bit. (futuristic tone)

(upbeat music) >> Live from the Mission Bay Conference Center in San Francisco, California, it's theCUBE at Google Cloud Platform Live. Here are your hosts, John Furrier and Jeff Frick. >> Okay welcome back everyone, we are live. This is theCUBE in San Francisco, California for Google Platform Conference Live, their developer conference for the cloud. I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE, Jeff Frick, my cohost, and we're excited to have CUBE alumni but also man about town coming to talk about containers, Kubernetes. We have Craig McLuckie, product manager at Google. Named the product Kubernetes. Welcome back. >> Thank you. It's great to be back on theCUBE. >> As I said, you're the man about town. Containers are the hottest thing going on. Really enabling a lot of new change. A lot of solidarity in the developer community around bringing cloud together, right? You're seeing people go, wow, containers are not a new concept. Docker has brought together the concept and made a huge push, just the ball got moved down the field big time. And then Kubernetes kind of tying it all together and you guys are open sourcing it. I wanted to first talk about, from your perspective, what's changed since VMware where we had a great conversation around Kubernetes? Obviously that was front and center in VMware's show, which is a huge IT enterprise vote of confidence. So now, here at Google, core developers. Large scale, backend network interconnect stuff going on. You almost connect the dots, right? Native developers really cranking out the apps? Large scale interconnect? There's a lot in the middle there between those bookends. What's changed? >> So a couple things I think have changed since I last spoke to theCUBE at VMworld. The first is we've seen an amazing amount of velocity around the Kubernetes community. Not just what Google's been doing but also what our open source community members have been contributing. And we're seeing a very fast acceleration of the overall platform. Moving quickly towards operation maturity, you know getting closer to production readiness and introducing a lot of features that are really need to both run real world applications and to go to new place, to go to a variety of new clouds. We're seeing the reality of a very highly portable and maturing way to build container based applications emerging. That's been very exciting. I think the other thing that's really interesting here is the way that we at Google have been introducing Kubernetes directly into the Google Cloud platform. Today we announced a new product called Google Container Engine which provides the quickest and easiest way to get a Kubernetes cluster up and running and managed for you on Google Cloud platform. And we're very excited about how easy it's making it for our customers to access this new way of building applications. >> Talk about this Container Engine because obviously App Engine's had huge success. Little bit of learning curve but you guys have some core front end developers that you're making that easier now but what is a Container Engine? Is it a Docker engine? Is it Docker compatible? Is it a whole new animal? What it is? What is it? >> That's great, I'm glad you asked that question. I would start by saying this, at Google we have Google Compute Engine which offers powerful, flexible, fast breeding VMs and at the other end of the spectrum we've had App Engine which offers a highly managed, very efficient way to get web applications up and running. And what we've encountered with our customers is that there is no natural way to move from one world to the other world. There's no connective tissue that exists in the middle that let's our customers think about building applications that are running on a cloud computer rather than just running on a virtual machine. And so what Google Container Engine is is a technology that let's our customers program at the cluster level. So Docker has provided this amazingly productive way to package up an application and deploy it into a node. Docker has done a great job of taking a lot of technologies that existed and making them incredibly accessible to developers. But the reality, in our experience, is that at least 80% of our customer's cost of maintaining applications comes out of the operation space so Kubernetes and Google Container Engine are an operationally viable way to build these distributed applications. It really moves our customers from thinking about deploying things into individual virtual machines to instead saying, hey, I'm just going to drop this into this cluster and it will all be wired together so I can take these little Lego building blocks I've got called containers, piece them together in ways that are intuitive and then have a very smart and effective system to run those for me on my behalf.. >> So basically a pool of VMs could be available to developer, if I get this right? So you're saying, I'm a developer, I don't have to worry about the dependencies by VMware, by VMware versus another form factor? I just let the container deal with that? Is that-- >> What we've done, yes, that's exactly right, we've created this strong separation between infrastructure operations and application operations. Docker has created a portable framework to take basically a binary and run it anywhere which is an amazing capability. But that's not enough. You also need to be able to manage that with a framework that can run anywhere so the union of Docker and Kubernetes provides this framework where you're completely abstracted from the underlying infrastructure. You could use VMware, you could use Red Hat Open Stack deployment, you could run on another major cloud provider like Rack Space or IBM and you could just build this application and deploy it there and experience this very powerful cluster first way of building and managing that app. >> Cluster first, I haven't heard that one. >> It's not a cluster you-know-what, it's a cluster first. (laughing) That trumps cloud first from Microsoft but let's go back to Kubernetes. You named the product, what does it mean? I mean it's kind of a, you don't look at a tech name, you say, it's not like alpha one, ya know? >> Kubernetes is the Greek word for the helmsman of a ship. I was looking to find a name and turns out, there's a lot of cluster management technologies and a lot of the obvious names were taken and so I had the inspiration of what is this doing? It's actually the thing that's overseeing the whole of your operation, and is planning what goes where and managing it. So Kubernetes is the helmsman of your cluster group, it's the thing that manages it. >> Did you design the algorithm to stay away from icebergs? (laughing) That's the key thing, you don't want to crash the system. But that's the challenge, you know, just joking aside, orchestration is really a hard thing. That's been a cloud phenomenon, automation. Everyone's been talking about, oh we have management software that automates and orchestrates cloud resources. But now in a cloud environment, it's more challenging now. Talk about what Kubernetes does different than older approaches to orchestration. >> I think is a very, very important consideration. When I look at the way that orchestration's been done traditionally, you tend to think about your application as being deeply tied to the underlying piece of infrastructure, so your orchestration process is provision me a basic machine, go get the packages I need, deploy my application pieces, wire it in explicitly to all the other pieces of my system and so you have to kind of build this relatively fragile system where all the piece are tied together and deeply coupled. What Kubernetes has done is provide a framework where you have a very principled, almost Lego building block that you can stick together and say, I want one of these things, I want it replicated six times, and I want it wired in to these other pieces without actually having to know about where those other pieces are deployed, how they relate to one another. It really is realizing this highly decoupled, very principled way of thinking about your environment as a cluster where you just drop your packages in and they're all wired together using virtualized networking and using this cluster centric paradigm and it radically, radically reduces the cost of operations. I could just give you an example of that. In the old days of Google, before we had these technologies inside the house, it was all we could do to keep the lights on. Like every day was an adventure, it was very hard, because our operations had our application pieces deeply tied into the physical infrastructure. When we introduced the system internally known as Borg, we changed the game. In less than a year-- >> Hold on, name is Borg? >> What was it called? >> Borg? >> Borg. >> Borg. >> Internally known as Borg. (laughing) >> Like connected to everything, like the Microsoft Borg, that's at Microsoft but Microsoft used to be called-- >> I was thinking more Arnold Schwarzenegger, but that's alright. >> Continue. I just wanted to make sure we heard that right. >> We literally doubled the number of production services we were running within a year. It's just so much easier to run things at scale. >> So provisioning, managing, it just makes a smoother operation? Smooth sailing if you will? >> It's really trying to hide provision, managing, right? You're basically, I have an app and I want to build it easily and then I want to deploy it easily and then I want it to be able to scale easily. >> Yes. >> Without having to go back and reconnect it to more stuff. It's funny because I think most people think that that's what clouds have already always done, right? There's basically compute, a networking and storage that's just in small units, virtually available to assemble however I want. But you say it, I used to have to still assemble it and disassemble it, now it's just-- >> Exactly. >> It's just plugging in. >> That's the challenge. The way we've seen cloud evolving has disappointed us a little bit because it really is just a re manifestation of the same existing first generation way of thinking about application development, application provisioning. If you challenge a lot of the fundamental assumptions, if you really step back and think about is there a better way to do this? If I have all this incredibly fungible resource that can turn up and turn down, is there a better way to build applications? Kubernetes is our invitation to the community to participate in defining that thing. We think it is a better way to build applications. We know it because we've been doing this for 10 years and it works really well for us. >> So talk about the open source angle because one, Kubernetes is open source, we've reported that live when we last chatted. Docker has huge success with their open source model. That's not well known in the main world, how the nuance and developers really are engaged and motivated to play with Docker which has it's own flywheel effect which is very viral in network effect. What's your strategy with Kubernetes? Is it standard open source blocking and tackling? Is there things you're doing to prime the pump? Is there a magical formula you guys are really nurturing and fostering? >> I am very happy with the way that the projects been run and it's been humbling to see the amount of adoption success we've had. I think that this manner of operating where we built Kubernetes as an open source project with the community, and then we take it and take exactly that and we turn it into a service and add a lot high value capabilities to it, is a pattern that's working very well for us. It's massively increased our velocity because it's not just us that are actually developing the project, we have amazing contributions from people like Red Hat. They're putting a lot of time and effort into making this thing great. Our friends at CoreOS are putting a lot of effort into it. We're able to do more because it's just more people working on it, so the velocity is far higher. The second thing is that we were able to go straight to an open offer. Normally we do these early adopter programs hidden behind the curtain, try to figure stuff out and do a lot of iteration. We didn't have to do that because the community has built the API with us, our customers have been working directly with us to shape the API. We know it's going to work for them. >> And that's helped you guys, so your differentiation doesn't really conflict with the community? >> Absolutely not. We recognized as we moved from a cloud that's worked mostly in the start up community and with internet facing companies to a cloud that's really engaging mainstream business. Our customers want multi cloud. It's critical to them. They want to be able to run in hybrid cloud. They want to have multi cloud provider relationships. They don't want to just rely on one provider and so our framework that works well everywhere but works especially well on Google, serves our business very well. >> Getting some great prompts on Crowd Chat so thanks for coming on theCUBE, always great to chat with you. You're in a hot area, we'd love to pick your brain but I want you to address three things I'm going to say to you, get your thoughts on. >> Okay. >> It can be your Google perspective, could be your own geeky perspective. Perimeter-less IT, multi cloud and mobile infrastructure. Three of the hottest areas on the planet right now in terms of people looking at investments, retooling, trying to figure things out, perimeter-less IT. Obviously perimeter IT, perimeter based security? >> Sure. >> Kind of goes away with the cloud right? >> Yeah. >> But you still need security, it's perimeter-less, so what does that mean? How do people understand and grasp that concept? >> I'm not sure I'm the right person to speak to perimeter less IT but I can say that-- >> Just in general. >> When I think about it, I think there's a couple of things that are happening here that are really interesting. When I look at the idea of perimeter-less IT, when I look at the idea of what I consider the democratization of IT, if you will, we've lived in a world where most businesses have been beholden to a specific organization that's controlled their provisioning, the policies and the set of bits they can use, everything's been controlled and IT hasn't been well loved by and large. We're moving into a world where it's a much more open ecosystem. Departments are far more empowered, anyone with a corporate credit card can go and get a machine and that's creating amazing agility and velocity for businesses. But it's introducing-- >> Creativity, too. >> A lot of creativity, but it's introducing a lot of pain as well. The hard thing is going to be creating a smart framework that allows empowered decentralization. Going from this world of highly controlled to decentralized empowerment, and I think that's where we're going to see a lot of interest from folks that are operating in the airplay space. >> Okay, multi cloud, just in general. Will people move to multiple clouds? Do you see that? UberClouds, we had Bitnami in earlier like, ah, people aren't really going to multiple clouds. They're not interested in moving workloads. Is that a state of the current situation or will it evolve to workloads anywhere? >> Multi cloud is the reality of our world. There's no serious customer I've spoken to in the last six months that has not been interested in a multi cloud relationship. Sorry, that's not true, there's no enterprise customer I've spoken to the last six months. >> That has not been interested? >> That has not been interested in multi cloud. >> And the reason is? >> In some ways. >> It's for what, resources? >> There's a couple of reasons. One is a lot of companies want to have just a multi provider relationship. They don't want to be beholden to a single cloud provider and frankly almost every customer I speak to has a massive investment in on premise infrastructure. They want to move away from a lot of the pain associated with managing that, but it's not going to happen overnight. Hybrid cloud is going to exist for quite a while. >> This is back to your empowered decentralization theme. >> And we have to provide them the tools to do that. We have to create positive pressure that moves them from those clouds to the public cloud. >> Final concept, and I've heard this a lot, kind of leads into the keynote, not necessarily the words but almost reeking of this concept of mobile infrastructure. I mean, mobile first, cluster first, kind of enables mobile first but mobile is obviously a form factor, whether it's an internet of things as a human or a device, doesn't matter it's still an endpoint the network. >> Yeah. >> It's a multitude of millions of devices so what is mobile infrastructure? Is it different? Is it the same? What's your take on it? >> It's an interesting question and the reality of our world is it's a mobile world. It's almost folly to do anything but think about mobile as the primary vehicle for customers, consumers and everyone else to interface with the internet, with the web. It certainly introduces an interesting set of challenges to application developers. I think one of the things that I am most sort of interested in cracking from a cloud provider's perspective is the world of multiple devices where you have a large set of devices in different form factors that are ultimately presenting a view of the same set of data, the same set of information and creating a set of experiences that work well in that multi device space. Moving away from a world where state is bound to a device to a world where state is based in your cloud and your device is simply providing a view or a way to interface with that data. We still have a way to go before that is fully materialized but I think that's going to be a big sort of anchor point of a lot of mobile development in the space. >> So Craig, where's the locus of competition move then? If the data center just becomes a resource that's on tap, basically, that I can just get? How do the cloud providers then differentiate? >> Basic infrastructure is relatively undifferentiated but when I look at the way that we run inside Google, we do some really, really scary smart things to make your application run for you. If you think about the way we run our infrastructure it's almost like the flight controller of a modern airplane. It's going from the old wire based control system where you move something to move a flap to a world where you have this controller that's taking in million of signals a second and making incredibly informed decisions that is optimizing the heck out of everything you do and making very fine grain corrections and I think that's going to be a huge avenue of differentiation. When you take an application, you package it and you give it to us and you trust us to run it for you and it's running at a slightly higher level, we have a much high extraction level, we can do incredibly smart things with things like machine learning technologies. We can watch how your application's running. We know how it ran last time so we can tell if something's going wrong because we have the ability to actually watch it. This is how we run internally. >> Right, right. >> It's not just about the infrastructure. It's going to be about smart systems that run your application for you. And that's going to be hard to-- >> It's really to abstract above the management of the application. It's actually the management of the application and the optimization of the application as opposed to the infrastructure? >> There's so much more value in moving from static, dumb infrastructure to actively managed, sort of precision managed container based capabilities. It's quite jarring. This was clear to me very soon after we shipped Google Compute Engine. I was able to see, we never looked inside VM so we were able to see what level of CP utilization our customer's were getting and we compared that to what we were able to run in our internal web loads and our customers are only getting like, there were several integer multiples less utilization than what they were paying for. So we knew that something could be done. We could actually move up the abstraction layer and just do a better job by actively managing and making smart decisions. And that would be very disruptive-- >> So let's play a game, we played a game with our last guest, we'll play the game of you and I are going to go into business together and be venture capitalist. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Sounds like fun. >> What's our investment thesis? Knowing what we know, I mean, there's a lot of entrepreneurs out there really looking at the enterprise right now. The enterprise is hard, cloud is kind of like a proxy for the enterprise but it's not like your classic enterprise. I'm a tech entrepreneur, I'm a coder, I'm an architect, I'm an OS guy, systems guy, could be a creative filmmaker, whatever but I want to come in and get some white space. Is there white space out there that you see that is an opportunity for developers that could really come in and stake claim and build a really good business? It could be lifestyle business, it could be a home run. Where would we invest? >> Yeah, I think there's so much white space in this domain. We are in the very early days of getting these technologies to market. Obviously there's just bolstering the basic, sort of the fundamentals of the platform. Overlay networking, everyone's talking SDN. Obviously there's a lot of hype around that but being able to create an abstraction that allows high levels of plugability for different network fabrics as you move between clouds is interesting. Storage, and doing a better job of providing virtualized storage that is available to these containers is an area of opportunity. There's a lot of work to be done in the tuning environment, full on application lifecycle management, continuous integration, lots of opportunity in that space. And then frankly, as we start looking at taking these technologies to market and deploying them into real businesses that are running multi cloud, there's going to be a lot of the governance, risk management and compliance overlay capabilities that just don't exist. We have the ability to define policy and enforce it in a very effective way, whether it's security policy, data loss prevention policy-- >> But it has to be dynamic, right? >> And it has to by dynamically done and it has to be enforced at the node. >> That's software, that's hard software? >> And there's so much work to be done there. There's so many opportunities to either create niche, vertically oriented capabilities of service specific protocol or unique, highly valuable, cross coding capabilities. I'm very excited about the future in this space. >> Where would we get started if I was an entrepreneur? Like, hey Craig, I saw your interview, where do I get started? Writing an app engine code? I want to put the boat in the water and starting drifting into this area you just mentioned, how should I navigate in? How should I vector in? >> A lot of it depends on where you're going to be operating in the stack. I would suggest you go and learn Go. Go is rapidly, GoLang, if you want to talk about the sort of the development environment is rapidly emerging as the language for the new cloud. We're seeing a lot of work in the Go community. Docker is written in Go, Kubernetes is written in Go. So I'd start there. It's a great platform for systems development. So I'd start looking at some of the existing technologies, Docker, Kubernetes, start just assessing where the gaps are. I'd probably approach it from a systems development perspective if I was doing it but there's also going to be a lot of value higher up the chain where you can actually-- >> You can dance on top of the stack and around the stack? >> Absolutely. >> Alright so final question, are we going back to the old OS days? I know you were joking before we came on, conversational even in a way, that was pretty relevant. I mean, we're seeing concepts of systems programming of the 80's kind of, but in decentralized way. Comment on that because I think that's tying a lot of things together. >> I think that's an incredibly astute observation and I think we're moving away from a world, operating system today is a node local thing, right? So I have an operating system and it's providing an environment that abstracts me from the physical details of one piece of hardware, one machine, you know one set of resources. What we're starting to see now is the emergence of some of these distributed concepts where you're programming not to a specific singe piece of infrastructure, single piece of hardware but you're programming to a cluster and so I think it's very much like that. I think that's a very astute observation and we're going to see the buzz-- >> But no one vendor owns it. It's owned by the world. >> And nor should one. It needs to be a POSIX like ubiquitous framework that let's us get more out of these cluster centric applications. >> Very organic, I mean I love what's happening is a very organic development but yet there's some, kind of group dynamics going on around cluster and Docker's a great example. Came out of the woodwork to become a defacto standard. Probably the fastest defacto standard that I've ever seen-- >> It's been breathtaking how quickly that technology's taken hold. >> And that's just the crowd. >> Yeah. >> Just saying, hey if we don't like decide on something? We like these guys the best, they didn't piss anyone off or whatever, whatever the dynamic is. It could be double source, flywheel, but-- >> It's interesting, certainly from Google's perspective, we've noticed Docker a lot sooner than most the world did. We had technologies that we could have stood up as potentially competing capabilities but we chose not to, because the world is incredibly well served by a single standard for defining and packaging applications. Now we need to continue that and we need to build the standard for the POSIX like distributed systems standard, that people think about coding to when they're building these modern, next gen cloud V2 applications. >> Craig, I really appreciate you spending the time. Love the conversation, love kind of the long winding road we took there. We knocked out some Kubernetes. We talked about Docker containers. Talked about the future of the industry. Really appreciate it, you're awesome to have on theCUBE here, you're invited any time. CUBE alumni Craig McLuckie right on theCUBE. We'll be right back, here, live in San Francisco broadcasting exclusively from Google's developer conference here, the Cloud Platform Live Event from Google. We'll be right back after this short break. (light music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> This past week we saw two of the Big 3 cloud providers present the latest update on their respective cloud visions, their business progress, their announcements and innovations. The content at these events had many overlapping themes, including modern cloud infrastructure at global scale, applying advanced machine intelligence, AKA AI, end-to-end data platforms, collaboration software. They talked a lot about the future of work automation. And they gave us a little taste, each company of the Metaverse Web 3.0 and much more. Despite these striking similarities, the differences between these two cloud platforms and that of AWS remains significant. With Microsoft leveraging its massive application software footprint to dominate virtually all markets and Google doing everything in its power to keep up with the frenetic pace of today's cloud innovation, which was set into motion a decade and a half ago by AWS. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we unpack the immense amount of content presented by the CEOs of Microsoft and Google Cloud at Microsoft Ignite and Google Cloud Next. We'll also quantify with ETR survey data the relative position of these two cloud giants in four key sectors: cloud IaaS, BI analytics, data platforms and collaboration software. Now one thing was clear this past week, hybrid events are the thing. Google Cloud Next took place live over a 24-hour period in six cities around the world, with the main gathering in New York City. Microsoft Ignite, which normally is attended by 30,000 people, had a smaller event in Seattle, in person with a virtual audience around the world. AWS re:Invent, of course, is much different. Yes, there's a virtual component at re:Invent, but it's all about a big live audience gathering the week after Thanksgiving, in the first week of December in Las Vegas. Regardless, Satya Nadella keynote address was prerecorded. It was highly produced and substantive. It was visionary, energetic with a strong message that Azure was a platform to allow customers to build their digital businesses. Doing more with less, which was a key theme of his. Nadella covered a lot of ground, starting with infrastructure from the compute, highlighting a collaboration with Arm-based, Ampere processors. New block storage, 60 regions, 175,000 miles of fiber cables around the world. He presented a meaningful multi-cloud message with Azure Arc to support on-prem and edge workloads, as well as of course the public cloud. And talked about confidential computing at the infrastructure level, a theme we hear from all cloud vendors. He then went deeper into the end-to-end data platform that Microsoft is building from the core data stores to analytics, to governance and the myriad tooling Microsoft offers. AI was next with a big focus on automation, AI, training models. He showed demos of machines coding and fixing code and machines automatically creating designs for creative workers and how Power Automate, Microsoft's RPA tooling, would combine with Microsoft Syntex to understand documents and provide standard ways for organizations to communicate with those documents. There was of course a big focus on Azure as developer cloud platform with GitHub Copilot as a linchpin using AI to assist coders in low-code and no-code innovations that are coming down the pipe. And another giant theme was a workforce transformation and how Microsoft is using its heritage and collaboration and productivity software to move beyond what Nadella called productivity paranoia, i.e., are remote workers doing their jobs? In a world where collaboration is built into intelligent workflows, and he even showed a glimpse of the future with AI-powered avatars and partnerships with Meta and Cisco with Teams of all firms. And finally, security with a bevy of tools from identity, endpoint, governance, et cetera, stressing a suite of tools from a single provider, i.e., Microsoft. So a couple points here. One, Microsoft is following in the footsteps of AWS with silicon advancements and didn't really emphasize that trend much except for the Ampere announcement. But it's building out cloud infrastructure at a massive scale, there is no debate about that. Its plan on data is to try and provide a somewhat more abstracted and simplified solutions, which differs a little bit from AWS's approach of the right database tool, for example, for the right job. Microsoft's automation play appears to provide simple individual productivity tools, kind of a ground up approach and make it really easy for users to drive these bottoms up initiatives. We heard from UiPath that forward five last month, a little bit of a different approach of horizontal automation, end-to-end across platforms. So quite a different play there. Microsoft's angle on workforce transformation is visionary and will continue to solidify in our view its dominant position with Teams and Microsoft 365, and it will drive cloud infrastructure consumption by default. On security as well as a cloud player, it has to have world-class security, and Azure does. There's not a lot of debate about that, but the knock on Microsoft is Patch Tuesday becomes Hack Wednesday because Microsoft releases so many patches, it's got so much Swiss cheese in its legacy estate and patching frequently, it becomes a roadmap and a trigger for hackers. Hey, patch Tuesday, these are all the exploits that you can go after so you can act before the patches are implemented. And so it's really become a problem for users. As well Microsoft is competing with many of the best-of-breed platforms like CrowdStrike and Okta, which have market momentum and appear to be more attractive horizontal plays for customers outside of just the Microsoft cloud. But again, it's Microsoft. They make it easy and very inexpensive to adopt. Now, despite the outstanding presentation by Satya Nadella, there are a couple of statements that should raise eyebrows. Here are two of them. First, as he said, Azure is the only cloud that supports all organizations and all workloads from enterprises to startups, to highly regulated industries. I had a conversation with Sarbjeet Johal about this, to make sure I wasn't just missing something and we were both surprised, somewhat, by this claim. I mean most certainly AWS supports more certifications for example, and we would think it has a reasonable case to dispute that claim. And the other statement, Nadella made, Azure is the only cloud provider enabling highly regulated industries to bring their most sensitive applications to the cloud. Now, reasonable people can debate whether AWS is there yet, but very clearly Oracle and IBM would have something to say about that statement. Now maybe it's not just, would say, "Oh, they're not real clouds, you know, they're just going to hosting in the cloud if you will." But still, when it comes to mission-critical applications, you would think Oracle is really the the leader there. Oh, and Satya also mentioned the claim that the Edge browser, the Microsoft Edge browser, no questions asked, he said, is the best browser for business. And we could see some people having some questions about that. Like isn't Edge based on Chrome? Anyway, so we just had to question these statements and challenge Microsoft to defend them because to us it's a little bit of BS and makes one wonder what else in such as awesome keynote and it was awesome, it was hyperbole. Okay, moving on to Google Cloud Next. The keynote started with Sundar Pichai doing a virtual session, he was remote, stressing the importance of Google Cloud. He mentioned that Google Cloud from its Q2 earnings was on a $25-billion annual run rate. What he didn't mention is that it's also on a 3.6 billion annual operating loss run rate based on its first half performance. Just saying. And we'll dig into that issue a little bit more later in this episode. He also stressed that the investments that Google has made to support its core business and search, like its global network of 22 subsea cables to support things like, YouTube video, great performance obviously that we all rely on, those innovations there. Innovations in BigQuery to support its search business and its threat analysis that it's always had and its AI, it's always been an AI-first company, he's stressed, that they're all leveraged by the Google Cloud Platform, GCP. This is all true by the way. Google has absolutely awesome tech and the talk, as well as his talk, Pichai, but also Kurian's was forward thinking and laid out a vision of the future. But it didn't address in our view, and I talked to Sarbjeet Johal about this as well, today's challenges to the degree that Microsoft did and we expect AWS will at re:Invent this year, it was more out there, more forward thinking, what's possible in the future, somewhat less about today's problem, so I think it's resonates less with today's enterprise players. Thomas Kurian then took over from Sundar Pichai and did a really good job of highlighting customers, and I think he has to, right? He has to say, "Look, we are in this game. We have customers, 9 out of the top 10 media firms use Google Cloud. 8 out of the top 10 manufacturers. 9 out of the top 10 retailers. Same for telecom, same for healthcare. 8 out of the top 10 retail banks." He and Sundar specifically referenced a number of companies, customers, including Avery Dennison, Groupe Renault, H&M, John Hopkins, Prudential, Minna Bank out of Japan, ANZ bank and many, many others during the session. So you know, they had some proof points and you got to give 'em props for that. Now like Microsoft, Google talked about infrastructure, they referenced training processors and regions and compute optionality and storage and how new workloads were emerging, particularly data-driven workloads in AI that required new infrastructure. He explicitly highlighted partnerships within Nvidia and Intel. I didn't see anything on Arm, which somewhat surprised me 'cause I believe Google's working on that or at least has come following in AWS's suit if you will, but maybe that's why they're not mentioning it or maybe I got to do more research there, but let's park that for a minute. But again, as we've extensively discussed in Breaking Analysis in our view when it comes to compute, AWS via its Annapurna acquisition is well ahead of the pack in this area. Arm is making its way into the enterprise, but all three companies are heavily investing in infrastructure, which is great news for customers and the ecosystem. We'll come back to that. Data and AI go hand in hand, and there was no shortage of data talk. Google didn't mention Snowflake or Databricks specifically, but it did mention, by the way, it mentioned Mongo a couple of times, but it did mention Google's, quote, Open Data cloud. Now maybe Google has used that term before, but Snowflake has been marketing the data cloud concept for a couple of years now. So that struck as a shot across the bow to one of its partners and obviously competitor, Snowflake. At BigQuery is a main centerpiece of Google's data strategy. Kurian talked about how they can take any data from any source in any format from any cloud provider with BigQuery Omni and aggregate and understand it. And with the support of Apache Iceberg and Delta and Hudi coming in the future and its open Data Cloud Alliance, they talked a lot about that. So without specifically mentioning Snowflake or Databricks, Kurian co-opted a lot of messaging from these two players, such as life and tech. Kurian also talked about Google Workspace and how it's now at 8 million users up from 6 million just two years ago. There's a lot of discussion on developer optionality and several details on tools supported and the open mantra of Google. And finally on security, Google brought out Kevin Mandian, he's a CUBE alum, extremely impressive individual who's CEO of Mandiant, a leading security service provider and consultancy that Google recently acquired for around 5.3 billion. They talked about moving from a shared responsibility model to a shared fate model, which is again, it's kind of a shot across AWS's bow, kind of shared responsibility model. It's unclear that Google will pay the same penalty if a customer doesn't live up to its portion of the shared responsibility, but we can probably assume that the customer is still going to bear the brunt of the pain, nonetheless. Mandiant is really interesting because it's a services play and Google has stated that it is not a services company, it's going to give partners in the channel plenty of room to play. So we'll see what it does with Mandiant. But Mandiant is a very strong enterprise capability and in the single most important area security. So interesting acquisition by Google. Now as well, unlike Microsoft, Google is not competing with security leaders like Okta and CrowdStrike. Rather, it's partnering aggressively with those firms and prominently putting them forth. All right. Let's get into the ETR survey data and see how Microsoft and Google are positioned in four key markets that we've mentioned before, IaaS, BI analytics, database data platforms and collaboration software. First, let's look at the IaaS cloud. ETR is just about to release its October survey, so I cannot share the that data yet. I can only show July data, but we're going to give you some directional hints throughout this conversation. This chart shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and overlap or presence in the data, i.e., how pervasive the platform is. That's on the horizontal axis. And we've inserted the Wikibon estimates of IaaS revenue for the companies, the Big 3. Actually the Big 4, we included Alibaba. So a couple of points in this somewhat busy data chart. First, Microsoft and AWS as always are dominant on both axes. The red dotted line there at 40% on the vertical axis. That represents a highly elevated spending velocity and all of the Big 3 are above the line. Now at the same time, GCP is well behind the two leaders on the horizontal axis and you can see that in the table insert as well in our revenue estimates. Now why is Azure bigger in the ETR survey when AWS is larger according to the Wikibon revenue estimates? And the answer is because Microsoft with products like 365 and Teams will often be considered by respondents in the survey as cloud by customers, so they fit into that ETR category. But in the insert data we're stripping out applications and SaaS from Microsoft and Google and we're only isolating on IaaS. The other point is when you take a look at the early October returns, you see downward pressure as signified by those dotted arrows on every name. The only exception was Dell, or Dell and IBM, which showing slightly improved momentum. So the survey data generally confirms what we know that AWS and Azure have a massive lead and strong momentum in the marketplace. But the real story is below the line. Unlike Google Cloud, which is on pace to lose well over 3 billion on an operating basis this year, AWS's operating profit is around $20 billion annually. Microsoft's Intelligent Cloud generated more than $30 billion in operating income last fiscal year. Let that sink in for a moment. Now again, that's not to say Google doesn't have traction, it does and Kurian gave some nice proof points and customer examples in his keynote presentation, but the data underscores the lead that Microsoft and AWS have on Google in cloud. And here's a breakdown of ETR's proprietary net score methodology, that vertical axis that we showed you in the previous chart. It asks customers, are you adopting the platform new? That's that lime green. Are you spending 6% or more? That's the forest green. Is you're spending flat? That's the gray. Is you're spending down 6% or worse? That's the pinkest color. Or are you replacing the platform, defecting? That's the bright red. You subtract the reds from the greens and you get a net score. Now one caveat here, which actually is really favorable from Microsoft, the Microsoft data that we're showing here is across the entire Microsoft portfolio. The other point is, this is July data, we'll have an update for you once ETR releases its October results. But we're talking about meaningful samples here, the ends. 620 for AWS over a thousand from Microsoft in more than 450 respondents in the survey for Google. So the real tell is replacements, that bright red. There is virtually no churn for AWS and Microsoft, but Google's churn is 5x, those two in the survey. Now 5% churn is not high, but you'd like to see three things for Google given it's smaller size. One is less churn, two is much, much higher adoption rates in the lime green. Three is a higher percentage of those spending more, the forest green. And four is a lower percentage of those spending less. And none of these conditions really applies here for Google. GCP is still not growing fast enough in our opinion, and doesn't have nearly the traction of the two leaders and that shows up in the survey data. All right, let's look at the next sector, BI analytics. Here we have that same XY dimension. Again, Microsoft dominating the picture. AWS very strong also in both axes. Tableau, very popular and respectable of course acquired by Salesforce on the vertical axis, still looking pretty good there. And again on the horizontal axis, big presence there for Tableau. And Google with Looker and its other platforms is also respectable, but it again, has some work to do. Now notice Streamlit, that's a recent Snowflake acquisition. It's strong in the vertical axis and because of Snowflake's go-to-market (indistinct), it's likely going to move to the right overtime. Grafana is also prominent in the Y axis, but a glimpse at the most recent survey data shows them slightly declining while Looker actually improves a bit. As does Cloudera, which we'll move up slightly. Again, Microsoft just blows you away, doesn't it? All right, now let's get into database and data platform. Same X Y dimensions, but now database and data warehouse. Snowflake as usual takes the top spot on the vertical axis and it is actually keeps moving to the right as well with again, Microsoft and AWS is dominant in the market, as is Oracle on the X axis, albeit it's got less spending velocity, but of course it's the database king. Google is well behind on the X axis but solidly above the 40% line on the vertical axis. Note that virtually all platforms will see pressure in the next survey due to the macro environment. Microsoft might even dip below the 40% line for the first time in a while. Lastly, let's look at the collaboration and productivity software market. This is such an important area for both Microsoft and Google. And just look at Microsoft with 365 and Teams up into the right. I mean just so impressive in ubiquitous. And we've highlighted Google. It's in the pack. It certainly is a nice base with 174 N, which I can tell you that N will rise in the next survey, which is an indication that more people are adopting. But given the investment and the tech behind it and all the AI and Google's resources, you'd really like to see Google in this space above the 40% line, given the importance of this market, of this collaboration area to Google's success and the degree to which they emphasize it in their pitch. And look, this brings up something that we've talked about before on Breaking Analysis. Google doesn't have a tech problem. This is a go-to-market and marketing challenge that Google faces and it's up against two go-to-market champs and Microsoft and AWS. And Google doesn't have the enterprise sales culture. It's trying, it's making progress, but it's like that racehorse that has all the potential in the world, but it's just missing some kind of key ingredient to put it over at the top. It's always coming in third, (chuckles) but we're watching and Google's obviously, making some investments as we shared with earlier. All right. Some final thoughts on what we learned this week and in this research: customers and partners should be thrilled that both Microsoft and Google along with AWS are spending so much money on innovation and building out global platforms. This is a gift to the industry and we should be thankful frankly because it's good for business, it's good for competitiveness and future innovation as a platform that can be built upon. Now we didn't talk much about multi-cloud, we haven't even mentioned supercloud, but both Microsoft and Google have a story that resonates with customers in cross cloud capabilities, unlike AWS at this time. But we never say never when it comes to AWS. They sometimes and oftentimes surprise you. One of the other things that Sarbjeet Johal and John Furrier and I have discussed is that each of the Big 3 is positioning to their respective strengths. AWS is the best IaaS. Microsoft is building out the kind of, quote, we-make-it-easy-for-you cloud, and Google is trying to be the open data cloud with its open-source chops and excellent tech. And that puts added pressure on Snowflake, doesn't it? You know, Thomas Kurian made some comments according to CRN, something to the effect that, we are the only company that can do the data cloud thing across clouds, which again, if I'm being honest is not really accurate. Now I haven't clarified these statements with Google and often things get misquoted, but there's little question that, as AWS has done in the past with Redshift, Google is taking a page out of Snowflake, Databricks as well. A big difference in the Big 3 is that AWS doesn't have this big emphasis on the up-the-stack collaboration software that both Microsoft and Google have, and that for Microsoft and Google will drive captive IaaS consumption. AWS obviously does some of that in database, a lot of that in database, but ISVs that compete with Microsoft and Google should have a greater affinity, one would think, to AWS for competitive reasons. and the same thing could be said in security, we would think because, as I mentioned before, Microsoft competes very directly with CrowdStrike and Okta and others. One of the big thing that Sarbjeet mentioned that I want to call out here, I'd love to have your opinion. AWS specifically, but also Microsoft with Azure have successfully created what Sarbjeet calls brand distance. AWS from the Amazon Retail, and even though AWS all the time talks about Amazon X and Amazon Y is in their product portfolio, but you don't really consider it part of the retail organization 'cause it's not. Azure, same thing, has created its own identity. And it seems that Google still struggles to do that. It's still very highly linked to the sort of core of Google. Now, maybe that's by design, but for enterprise customers, there's still some potential confusion with Google, what's its intentions? How long will they continue to lose money and invest? Are they going to pull the plug like they do on so many other tools? So you know, maybe some rethinking of the marketing there and the positioning. Now we didn't talk much about ecosystem, but it's vital for any cloud player, and Google again has some work to do relative to the leaders. Which brings us to supercloud. The ecosystem and end customers are now in a position this decade to digitally transform. And we're talking here about building out their own clouds, not by putting in and building data centers and installing racks of servers and storage devices, no. Rather to build value on top of the hyperscaler gift that has been presented. And that is a mega trend that we're watching closely in theCUBE community. While there's debate about the supercloud name and so forth, there little question in our minds that the next decade of cloud will not be like the last. All right, we're going to leave it there today. Many thanks to Sarbjeet Johal, and my business partner, John Furrier, for their input to today's episode. Thanks to Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast and Ken Schiffman as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight helped get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our editor in chief over at SiliconANGLE, who does some wonderful editing. And check out SiliconANGLE, a lot of coverage on Google Cloud Next and Microsoft Ignite. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcast wherever you listen. Just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And you can always get in touch with me via email, david.vellante@siliconangle.com or you can DM me at dvellante or comment on my LinkedIn posts. And please do check out etr.ai, the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for the CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (gentle music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Virtually all tech companies have expressed caution in their respective earnings calls, and why not? I know you're sick in talking about the macroeconomic environment, but it's full of uncertainties and there's no upside to providing aggressive guidance when sellers are in control. They punish even the slightest miss. Moreover, the spending data confirms the softening market across the board, so it's becoming expected that CFOs will guide cautiously. But companies facing execution challenges, they can't hide behind the macro, which is why it's important to understand which firms are best positioned to maintain momentum through the headwinds and come out the other side stronger. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis," we'll do three things. First, we're going to share a high-level view of the spending pinch that almost all sectors are experiencing. Second, we're going to highlight some of those companies that continue to show notably strong momentum and relatively high spending velocity on their platforms, albeit less robust than last year. And third, we're going to give you a peak at how one senior technology leader in the financial sector sees the competitive dynamic between AWS, Snowflake, and Databricks. So I landed on the red eye this morning and opened my eyes, and then opened my email to see this. My Barron's Daily had a headline telling me how bad things are and why they could get worse. The S&P Thursday hit a new closing low for the year. The safe haven of bonds are sucking wind. The market hasn't seemed to find a floor. Central banks are raising rates. Inflation is still high, but the job market remains strong. Oh, not to mention that the US debt service is headed toward a trillion dollars per year, and the geopolitical situation is pretty tense, and Europe seems to be really struggling. Yeah, so the Santa Claus rally is really looking pretty precarious, especially if there's a liquidity crunch coming, like guess why they call Barron's Barron's. Last week, we showed you this graphic ahead of the UiPath event. For months, the big four sectors, cloud, containers, AI, and RPA, have shown spending momentum above the rest. Now, this chart shows net score or spending velocity on specific sectors, and these four have consistently trended above the 40% red line for two years now, until this past ETR survey. ML/AI and RPA have decelerated as shown by the squiggly lines, and our premise was that they are more discretionary than the other sectors. The big four is now the big two: cloud and containers. But the reality is almost every sector in the ETR taxonomy is down as shown here. This chart shows the sectors that have decreased in a meaningful way. Almost all sectors are now below the trend line and only cloud and containers, as we showed earlier, are above the magic 40% mark. Container platforms and container orchestration are those gray dots. And no sector has shown a significant increase in spending velocity relative to October 2021 survey. In addition to ML/AI and RPA, information security, yes, security, virtualizations, video conferencing, outsourced IT, syndicated research. Syndicated research, yeah, those Gartner, IDC, Forrester, they stand out as seemingly the most discretionary, although we would argue that security is less discretionary. But what you're seeing is a share shift as we've previously reported toward modern platforms and away from point tools. But the point is there is no sector that is immune from the macroeconomic environment. Although remember, as we reported last week, we're still expecting five to 6% IT spending growth this year relative to 2021, but it's a dynamic environment. So let's now take a look at some of the key players and see how they're performing on a relative basis. This chart shows the net score or spending momentum on the y-axis and the pervasiveness of the vendor within the ETR survey measured as the percentage of respondents citing the vendor in use. As usual, Microsoft and AWS stand out because they are both pervasive on the x-axis and they're highly elevated on the vertical axis. For two companies of this size that demonstrate and maintain net scores above the 40% mark is extremely impressive. Although AWS is now showing much higher on the vertical scale relative to Microsoft, which is a new trend. Normally, we see Microsoft dominating on both dimensions. Salesforce is impressive as well because it's so large, but it's below those two on the vertical axis. Now, Google is meaningfully large, but relative to the other big public clouds, AWS and Azure, we see this as disappointing. John Blackledge of Cowen went on CNBC this past week and said that GCP, by his estimates, are 75% of Google Cloud's reported revenue and is now only five years behind AWS in Azure. Now, our models say, "No way." Google Cloud Platform, by our estimate, is running at about $3 billion per quarter or more like 60% of Google's reported overall cloud revenue. You have to go back to 2016 to find AWS running at that level and 2018 for Azure. So we would estimate that GCP is six years behind AWS and four years behind Azure from a revenue performance standpoint. Now, tech-wise, you can make a stronger case for Google. They have really strong tech. But revenue is, in our view, a really good indicator. Now, we circle here ServiceNow because they have become a generational company and impressively remain above the 40% line. We were at CrowdStrike with theCUBE two weeks ago, and we saw firsthand what we see as another generational company in the making. And you can see the company spending momentum is quite impressive. Now, HashiCorp and Snowflake have now surpassed Kubernetes to claim the top net score spots. Now, we know Kubernetes isn't a company, but ETR tracks it as though it were just for context. And we've highlighted Databricks as well, showing momentum, but it doesn't have the market presence of Snowflake. And there are a number of other players in the green: Pure Storage, Workday, Elastic, JFrog, Datadog, Palo Alto, Zscaler, CyberArk, Fortinet. Those last ones are in security, but again, they're all off their recent highs of 2021 and early 2022. Now, speaking of AWS, Snowflake, and Databricks, our colleague Eric Bradley of ETR recently held an in-depth interview with a senior executive at a large financial institution to dig into the analytics space. And there were some interesting takeaways that we'd like to share. The first is a discussion about whether or not AWS can usurp Snowflake as the top dog in analytics. I'll let you read this at your at your leisure, but I'll pull out some call-outs as indicated by the red lines. This individual's take was quite interesting. Note the comment that quote, this is my area of expertise. This person cited AWS's numerous databases as problematic, but Redshift was cited as the closest competitors to Snowflake. This individual also called out Snowflake's current cross-cloud Advantage, what we sometimes call supercloud, as well as the value add in their marketplace as a differentiator. But the point is this person was actually making, the point that this person was actually making is that cloud vendors make a lot of money from Snowflake. AWS, for example, see Snowflake as much more of a partner than a competitor. And as we've reported, Snowflake drives a lot of EC2 and storage revenue for AWS. Now, as well, this doesn't mean AWS does not have a strong marketplace. It does. Probably the best in the business, but the point is Snowflake's marketplace is exclusively focused on a data marketplace and the company's challenge or opportunity is to build up that ecosystem and to continue to add partners and create network effects that allow them to create long-term sustainable moat for the company, while at the same time, staying ahead of the competition with innovation. Now, the other comment that caught our attention was Snowflake's differentiators. This individual cited three areas. One, the well-known separation of compute and storage, which, of course, AWS has replicated sort of, maybe not as elegant in the sense that you can reduce the compute load with Redshift, but unlike Snowflake, you can't shut it down. Two, with Snowflake's data sharing capability, which is becoming quite well-known and a key part of its value proposition. And three, its marketplace. And again, key opportunity for Snowflake to build out its ecosystem. Close feature gaps that it's not necessarily going to deliver on its own. And really importantly, create governed and secure data sharing experiences for anyone on the data cloud or across clouds. Now, the last thing this individual addressed in the ETR interview that we'll share is how Databricks and Snowflake are attacking a similar problem, i.e. simplifying data, data sharing, and getting more value from data. The key messages here are there's overlap with these two platforms, but Databricks appeals to a more techy crowd. You open a notebook, when you're working with Databricks, you're more likely to be a data scientist, whereas with Snowflake, you're more likely to be aligned with the lines of business within sometimes an industry emphasis. We've talked about this quite often on "Breaking Analysis." Snowflake is moving into the data science arena from its data warehouse strength, and Databricks is moving into analytics and the world of SQL from its AI/ML position of strength, and both companies are doing well, although Snowflake was able to get to the public markets at IPO, Databricks has not. Now, even though Snowflake is on the quarterly shock clock as we saw earlier, it has a larger presence in the market. That's at least partly due to the tailwind of an IPO, and, of course, a stronger go-to market posture. Okay, so we wanted to share some of that with you, and I realize it's a bit of a tangent, but it's good stuff from a qualitative practitioner perspective. All right, let's close with some final thoughts. Look forward a little bit. Things in the short-term are really hard to predict. We've seen these oversold rallies peter out for the last couple of months because the world is such a mess right now, and it's really difficult to reconcile these counterveiling trends. Nothing seems to be working from a public policy perspective. Now, we know tech spending is softening, but let's not forget it, five to 6% growth. It's at or above historical norms, but there's no question the trend line is down. That said, there are certain growth companies, several mentioned in this episode, that are modern and vying to be generational platforms. They're well-positioned, financially sound, disciplined, with strong cash positions, with inherent profitability. What I mean by that is they can dial down growth if they wanted to, dial up EBIT, but being a growth company today is not what it was a year ago. Because of rising rates, the discounted cash flows are just less attractive. So earnings estimates, along with revenue multiples on these growth companies, are reverting toward the mean. However, companies like Snowflake, and CrowdStrike, and some others are able to still command a relative premium because of their execution and continued momentum. Others, as we reported last week, like UiPath for example, despite really strong momentum and customer spending, have had execution challenges. Okta is another example of a company with strong spending momentum, but is absorbing off zero for example. And as a result, they're getting hit harder from evaluation standpoint. The bottom line is sellers are still firmly in control, the bulls have been humbled, and the traders aren't buying growth tech or much tech at all right now. But long-term investors are looking for entry points because these generational companies are going to be worth significantly more five to 10 years down the line. Okay, that's it for today. Thanks for watching this "Breaking Analysis" episode. Thanks to Alex Myerson and Ken Schiffman on production. And Alex manages our podcast as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight. They help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at SiliconANGLE do some wonderful editing for us, so thank you. Thank you all. Remember that all these episodes are available as podcast wherever you listen. All you do is search "Breaking Analysis" podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com and you can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com, or DM me @dvellante, or comment on my LinkedIn post. And please check out etr.ai for the very best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis." (gentle music)

>> Welcome back to Cube On Cloud. My name is Paul Gillin, enterprise editor at SiliconANGLE, and I'm pleased to now have as a guest on the show. Amit Zephyr, excuse me, general manager, vice president of business application platform at Google cloud. Amit is a formerly EVP and corporate officer for product development at Oracle cloud, 24 years at Oracle, and by my account a veteran of seven previous appearances on theCube. Amit welcome, thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having me Paul, it's always good to be back on theCube. >> Now you are... one of your big focus areas right now is on low-code and no-code. Of course this is a market that seems to be growing explosively. We often hear low code/no code used in the same breath as if they're the same thing. In fact, how are they different? >> I think it's a huge difference, now. I think industry started as low-code mode for many, many years. I mean, there were technologies, or tools provided for kind of helping developers be more productive that's what low-code was doing. It was not really meant, even though it was positioned for citizen developers it was very hard for a non technologist to really build application using low code. No-code is really meant as the word stands, no code. So there's really no coding, there's no understanding required about the underlying technology stack, or knowing how constructs works or how the data is laid out. All that stuff is kind of hidden and abstracted out from you. You are really focused as a citizen developer or a line of business user, in kind of delivering what your business application requirements are, and the business flows are, without having to know anything about writing any code. So you can build applications, you can build your interfaces and not have to learn anything about a single line of code. So that's really no-code and I think they getting to a phase now where the platforms have gotten much stronger and better where you can do very good productive applications without having to write a single line of code. So that's really the goal with no-code, and that's really the future in terms of how we will get more and more line of business users, or citizen developers to build applications they need for their day-to-day work. >> So when would you use one or the other? >> I think since low-code you would probably any developer has been around for eight, 10 years, if not longer where you extract out some of this stuff you can do some of the things in terms of not having to write some code where you have a lot of modules pre-built for you, and then when you want to mix a lot of changes, you go and drop into an ID and write some code or make some changes to a code. So you still get into that, and those are really focused towards semi-professional developers or IT in many cases or even developers who want to reduce the time required to start from, write and building an application. so it makes you much more productive. So if you are a really some semi-professional or you are a developer, you can either use use low-code to improve your productivity and not start from scratch. No-code is really used for folks who are really not interested in learning about coding, don't have any experience in it, and still want to be productive and build applications. And that's really when I would start with.. I would not give a low code to a citizen developer or a line of business user who has no experience with any coding. And that's not really.. It will only productive, They'll get frustrated and not deliver what you need, and not get anything out of it and many cases. >> Well, I've been around this industry long enough to remember fourth-generation languages and visual basic >> Yeah and the predecessors that never really caught on in a big way. I mean, they certainly had big audiences but, right now we're seeing 40, 50% annual market growth. Why is this market suddenly so hot? >> Yeah it's not a difference. I think that as you said, the 4G deal and I think a lot of those tools, even if you look at forms, and PLC and we kind of extracted out the technology and made it easier, but it was not very clear who they were targeting with that. They're still targeting the same developer audience. So the they never expanded the universe of users. It was same user base, just making it simpler for them. So, with those low-code tools, it never landed them getting more and more user base out of that. With no-code platforms, you are now expanding the user community. You are giving this capabilities to more and more users than a low-code tools could provide. That's why I think the growth is much faster. So if you find the right no-code platform, you will see a lot more adoption because you're solving a real problem, you are giving them a lot more capabilities and making the user productive without having to depend on IT in many cases, or having to wait for a lot of those big applications to be built for them even though they need it immediately. So I think that's why I think you're solving a real business problem and giving a lot more capabilities to users and no doubt the users love it and they start expanding the usage. It's very viral adoption in many cases after that. >> Historically the rap on these tools has been that, because they're typically interpreted, the performance is never going to be up to that of application written in C plus plus or something. Is that still the case? Is that a sort of structural weakness of no-code tools or is that changing? >> I think the early days probably not any more. I think if you look at what we are doing at Google Cloud for example, it's not interpreted, I mean, it does do a lot of heavy lifting underneath the covers, but, and you don't have to go into the coding part of it but it brings the whole Cloud platform with it, right? So the scalability, the security the performance, availability all that stuff is built into the platform. So it's not a tool, it's a platform. I think that's thing, the big difference. Most of the early days you will see a lot of these things as a tool, which you can use it, and there's nothing underneath the covers the run kinds are very weak, there's really not the full Cloud platform provided with it, but I think the way we seeing it now and over the last many years, what we have done and what we continue to do, is to bring the power of the Cloud platform with it. So you're not missing out on the scalability, the performance, security, even the compliance and governance is built in. So IT is part of the process even though they might not build an application themselves. And that's where I think the barriers have been lifted. And again, it's not a solution for everything also. I'm not saying that this would go in, if you want to build a full end to end e-commerce site for example, I would not use a no-code platform for it, because you're going to do a lot more heavy lifting, you might want to integrate with a lot of custom stuff, you might build a custom experience. All that kind of stuff might not be that doable, but there are a lot of use cases now, which you can deliver with a platform like what we've been building at Google cloud. >> So, talk about what you're doing at Google cloud. Do you have a play in both the low-code and the no-code market? Do you favor one over the other? >> Yeah no I think we've employed technologies and services across the gamut of different requirements, right? I mean, our goal is not that we will only address one market needs and we'll ignore the rest of the things required for our developer community. So as you know, Google cloud has been very focused for many years delivering capabilities for developer community. With technology we deliver the Kubernetes and containers tend to flow for AI, compute storage all that kind of stuff is really developer centric. We have a lot of developers build applications on it writing code. They have abstracted some of this stuff and provide a lot of low-code technologies like Firebase for building mobile apps, the millions of apps mobile apps built by developers using Firebase today that it does abstract out the technology. And then you don't have to do a lot of heavy lifting yourself. So we do provide a lot of low-code tooling as well. And now, as we see the need for no-code especially kind of empowering the line of business user and citizen developers, we acquired a company called AppSheet, early 2020, and integrated that as part of our Google Cloud Platform as well as the workspace. So the G suite, the Gmail, all the technology all the services we provide for productivity and collaboration. And allowed users to now extend that collaboration capabilities by adding a workflow, and adding another app experience as needed for a particular business user needs. So that's how we looking at it like making sure that we can deliver a platform for spectrum of different use cases. And get that flexibility for the end user in terms of whatever they need to do, we should be able to provide as part of a Google Cloud Platform now. >> So as far as Google Cloud's positioning, I mean you're number three in the market you're growing but not really changing the distance between you and Microsoft for what public information we've been able to see in AWS. In Microsoft you have a company that has a long history with developers and of development tools and really as is that as a core strength do you see your low-code/no-code strategy as being a way to make up ground on them? >> Yeah, I think that the way to look at the market, and again I know the industry analyst and the market loves to do rankings in this world but, I think the Cloud business is probably big enough for a lot of vendors. I mean, this is growing as the amazing pace as you know. And it is becoming, it's a large investment. It takes time for a lot of the vendors to deliver everything they need to. But today, if you look at a lot of the net new growth and lot of net new customers, we seeing a huge percentage of share coming to Google Cloud, right? And we continue to announce some of the public things and the results will come out again every quarter. And we tried to break out the Cloud segment in the Google results more regularly so that people get an idea of how well they're doing in the Cloud business. So we are very comfortable where we are in terms of our growth in terms of our adoption, as well as in terms of how we delivering all the value our customers require, right? So, note out one of the parts we want to do is make sure that we have a end to end offering for all of the different use cases customers require and no-code is one of the parts we want to deliver for our customers as well. We've done very good capabilities and our data analytics. We do a lot of work around AIML, industry solutions. You look at the adoption we've had around a lot of those platform and Hybrid and MultiCloud. It's been growing very, very fast. And this one more additional things we are going to do, so that we can deliver what our customers are asking for. We're not too worried about the rankings we are worried about really making sure we're delivering the value to our customers. And we're seeing that it doesn't end very well. And if you look at the numbers now, I mean the growth rate is higher than any other Cloud vendor as well as be seeing a huge amount of demand been on Google Cloud as well. >> Well, not to belabor the point, but naturally your growth rate is going to be higher if you're a third of the market, I mean, how important is it to you to break into, to surpass the number two? How important are rankings within the Google Cloud team, or are you focused mainly more on growth and just consistency? >> No, I don't think again, I'm not worried about... we are not focused on ranking, or any of that stuff typically, I think we were worried about making sure customers are satisfied, and the adding more and more customers. So if you look at the volume of customers we're signing up, a lot of the large deals they didn't... do we need to look at the announcement we'd made over the last year, has been tremendous momentum around that. Lot of large banks, lot of large telecommunication companies large enterprises, name them. I think all of them are starting to kind of pick up Google Cloud. So if you follow that, I think that's really what is satisfying for us. And the results are starting to show that growth and the momentum. So we can't cover the gap we had in the previous... Because Google Cloud started late in this market. So if Cloud business grows by accumulating revenue over many years. So I cant look at the history, I'm looking at the future really. And if you look at the growth for the new business and the percentage of the net new business, we're doing better than pretty much any other vendor out there. >> And you said you were stepping up your reference to disclose those numbers. Was that what I heard you say? >> I think every quarter you're seeing that, I think we started announcing our revenue and growth numbers, and we started to do a lot of reporting about our Cloud business and that you will start, you see more and more and more of that regularly from Google now. >> Let's get back just briefly to the low-code/no-code discussion. A lot of companies looking at how to roll this out right now. You've got some big governance issues involved here. If you have a lot of citizen developers you also have the potential for chaos. What advice are you giving customers using your tools for how they should organize around citizen development? >> Yeah, no, I think no doubt. If this needs to be adopted by enterprise you can't make it a completely rogue or a completely shadow based development capabilities. So part of our no-code platform, one thing you want to make sure that this is enterprise ready, it has many aspects required for that. One is compliance making sure you have all the regulatory things delivered for data, privacy, security. Second is governance. A lot of the IT departments want to make sure who's using this platform? How are they accessing it? Are they getting the right security privileges associated with that? Are we giving them the right permissions? So in our a no-code platform we adding all this compliance, and governance regulatory stuff as part of our underlying platform, even though the end user might not have to worry about it the person who's building applications shouldn't have to think about it, but we do want to give controls to IT as needed by the large enterprises. So that is a big part of how we deliver this. We're not thinking about this as like go and build it, and then we write it once you have to do things for your enterprise, and then get it to do it again and again. Because then it just a waste of time and you're not getting the benefit of the platform at all. So we bringing those things together where we have a very easy to use, very powerful no-code platform with the enterprise compliance as well as governance built into that platform as well. And that is really resonating. If you look at a lot of the customers we're working with they do require that and they get excited about it as well as the democratizing of all of their line of business users. They're very happy that they're getting that kind of a platform, which they can scale from and deliver the productivity required. >> Certainly going to make businesses look very different in the future. And speaking of futures, It is January it's time to do predictions. What are your predictions (laughs) for the Cloud for this year? >> No I think that I mean no doubt cloud has become the center for pretty much every company now, I think the digital transformation especially with COVID, has greatly accelerated. We have seen many customers now who are thinking of pieces of their platform, pieces of their workflow or business to be digitized. Now that's trying to do it for all of it. So the one part which we see for this year is the need for more and more of efficiency in the industry are verticalized business workflows. It's not just about providing a plain vanilla Cloud Platform but also providing a lot more content and business details and business workflows by industry segments. So we've been doing a lot of work and we expect a huge amount of that to be becoming more and more core part of our offering as well as what customers are asking for. Where you might need things around say know your customer kind of workflow for financial services, Telehealth for healthcare. I mean, every industry has specific things like demand management and demand forecasting for retail but making that as part of a Cloud service not just saying, hey, I have compute storage network. I have some kind of a platform go add it and go and build what you want for your industry needs, We want to provide them that all those kinds of business processes and content for those industries as well. So we identified six, seven, industries. We see that as a kind of the driving factor for our Cloud growth, as well as helping our customers be much more productive as well as seeing the value of Cloud being much more realistic for them versus just a replacement for the data center. I think that's really the big shift in 21 I think. And I think that will make a big difference for all the companies who are really trying to digitize and be in forefront of the needs as their customers require in the future. >> Of course all of this accelerated by the pandemic and all of the specialized needs that have emerged from that. >> And I think the bond, which is important as well, I think as you know, I mean, everybody talks about AIML as like a big thing. No doubt AIML is an important element of it, but if you make that usable and powerful through this kind of workflows and business processes, as well as particular business applications, I think you see a lot more interest in using it than just a plain manila framework or just technology for the technology sake. So we try to bring the power of AI and ML into this business and industry applications, where we have a lot of good technologists at Google who knows how to use all these things. You wanted to bring that into those applications and platforms >> Exciting times ahead. Amit Zavery thank you so much for joining us. You look just as comfortable as I would expect someone to be who is doing his eighth Cube interview. Thanks for joining us. >> (laughing) Thanks for having me, Paul. >> That's it for this segment of Cube On Cloud, I'm Paul Gillin, stay tuned. (soft music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe its theCUBE with digital coverage of Veeamon 2020, brought to you by Veeam. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante. We're here with a preview of Veeamon 2020. Danny Allan, CTO of Veeam, Danny I wish we were face to face, man, but great to see you online. >> Great to see you as well. This is the next best thing, right? >> It is, I mean, you know, Veeamon has been a great conference for the last several years, we've attended with theCUBE. But let's get into it. You know, COVID-19 obviously shifts to virtual, but there's a lot of things going on, I'm sure in your business, a lot of talk about business resiliency. How has the pandemic sort of affected Veeam and how you're managing the business? Well, it certainly impacted the entire industry. It actually, one of the interesting things that has happened, of course, is that you used to get on an airplane, fly to the customer, shake their hand, and close the deal. That obviously isn't happening. That's the external side of it. The internal side of it is, you know, everyone went into an office, we had a culture, especially in inside sales and support, people going into offices and obviously we had to close them. The downside is we lose some of that model that we've had in the past, but the upside, the bright side of this is we've been doing fantastic, in fact, the numbers that we have achieved are the same as if COVID-19 hadn't hit. Now, I attribute that to a few different things. One is that, you know, we have a broad spectrum of customers, 375,000 across all segments across all industries. And while it's still early in the year, who knows what's going to happen? What I can say is that from a business results standpoint, it's been good. From a product strategy standpoint, which is where I sit of course, it's actually been better than good because we actually have the opportunity to focus a little bit more, perhaps, than we have in the past to speaking to customers and delivering on things that are harder to do when you're on airplanes all the time. >> Well, I mean, we've been reporting on theCUBE that it's really a story of the haves and have nots. I mean, my take away there is had it not been for COVID-19, maybe the numbers would even be higher. At the same time, though, the whole, like I said, business resiliency, work from home, people really thinking about data protection has really come to the fore. So some of the other trends, obviously, that are tailwinds: cloud, data, the whole notion of multicloud. I'm sure we're going to hear a lot about this at the Veeamon virtual. >> Yeah, so as you know, our objective is to be the most trusted provider of backup solutions that deliver cloud data management. And so, there's a big focus on cloud where we certainly think of cloud, of course, as the big three hyper scalers of AWS, Azure, and Google, and you're going to hear announcements about all three of those and products that continue to enhance your capabilities there. But it's also our partners. We have in our virtual solutions lab, we actually have 30 partners there, but we have a huge stable, if you will, or partner ecosystem of Veeam cloud service providers, and we're excited that they're going to be there, as well. And we're highlighting some of their innovations. >> Yeah, I mean, we're dropping a breaking analysis this week on cloud. All three of those cloud suppliers you mentioned have a lot of momentum behind, you know, their businesses right now. Pandemics, not pandemics, but downturns have always been good for cloud and I think this is no change. So, give us a little, you know, glimpse as to what we're going to hear from a product standpoint at Veeamon 2020. >> Well a few different, exciting things. In the past, as you know, we launched Veeam backup for AWS, that was our first cloud native solution. We just recently launched Veeam backup for Microsoft Azure, and you're going to see iterations on those products demoed live on stage by the legendary Anton Gostev, and always the fan favorite Rick Vanover. So you're going to see demos of those. You're also going to see the first foray into partnerships with Google, as well, Google Cloud Platform. If you combine all those hyper scalers right now, they did, I think a little over 67 billion last year, in 2019, and obviously the compound annual growth rate is projected to go to 375 billion. So we're going to highlight some of the capabilities that we've introduced in the last few months and over the rest of 2020 with them. >> Well and you're right, you mean we just reported, we just saw, you know, first quarter earnings reports. You got AWS as a $38 billion business growing in the mid-30s. You got, you know, Azure and Google growing faster from a smaller base but still enormous, many many billions. You also have hands on labs. There's two days, June 17th and June 18th, so, you know, check it out, go sign up. But you've got hands on labs that you're bringing to the virtual experience. >> Yeah, so we're doing 20 break-in sessions, 10 live sessions, and that's exciting. But, actually, for the first time, and it was based on demand, we're doing what we call a Veeam-a-thon, and that's going to bring 20 to 30 live sessions where, actually, users can come and collaborate live with the experts. And one of the things about a virtual event, of course, is that this opens it up globally for people to come and register for free, but they can actually interact on an ongoing basis over those two days with the experts from Veeam. So, while some people are disappointed that we can't be there face to face, we're still going to have the legendary party, but we're also doing some of these Veeam-a-thons and live interactions, which is a new opportunity for us. I think it's exciting. >> Well you better make sure you have your auto scaling on. Danny, I'm seeing some of these virtual conferences get so many people. We just saw one on twitter with so much demand it went down. I'm sure you guys got your infrastructure together. So, bring us home. You know, why should I attend Veeamon 2020? >> Well, everyone knows Veeam for its high energy, its exciting conferences, lots of announcements. We have partners there with us on stage. This is taking it to the next level. We're taking that same conference that is exciting, lots of energy, we're doing it online, which brings it to a global market, and we're not decreasing the energy. In fact, we're still having that legendary party. We're still doing all those massive announcements. And so, this just is a next generation, I would argue, of where the industry is going. And we're excited to be there with our partners. >> So very exciting time for Veeam. Blockbuster Acquisition in January. Congratulations to Danny, to you, and very excited for Veeamon. Check it out, June 17th and 18th, a great thing, typical Veeam, right? It just works, you go there, it's not like a huge exam, just a few things you got to enter, email and a couple other things, boom, registration's simple. Danny thanks so much for helping us with this preview, really appreciate it. >> Thank you very much Dave, always a pleasure, and happy to speak with you. >> All right stay safe everybody, this is Dave Vellante for theCUBE and we'll see you next time. (Calm music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of VM on 2020. Brought to you by IBM >>already. This is Dave Volante. We're here with a preview of VM on 2020. Danny Allen, CTO of Eve dinner, which we're face to face, man. But great to see you online. >>Great senior as well. This is the next best thing, right? >>It is. I mean, you know, VM on has been a great conference for the last several years. We've attended with you, but let's let's get into it. You know, Kobe, 19 obviously shifts tow virtual, but there's a lot of things going on. I'm sure in your business >>a >>lot of talk about business resiliency. How has the pandemic could have affected theme and how you're managing the business? >>Well, it's certainly impacted the entire industry. And actually, one of the interesting things that has happened, of course, is that used to get on an airplane in flight of the customer, shake their hand and close a deal that obviously isn't happening. Um, that's the external side of the internal side of it is you know, everyone went into an office. We have a culture especially in inside sales and support of people going dollar citizen. Obviously, we had to close them. The downside is we loose some of that model that we had in the past, But the upside the bright side of this is we've been doing fantastic impact. The numbers that we have achieved are the same as if Kobe 19 hydrant it. No, I attribute that to a few different things. One is that, >>you >>know, we have a broad spectrum of customers 375,000 across all segments across all industries. And while it's still early in the year, who knows what's going to happen? What I can say is that my business results standpoint. It's been good from a product strategy standpoint, which is where I said, Of course it's It's actually been better than good because we actually have the opportunity to focus a little bit more perhaps, than we have in the past, too. Speaking to customers and delivering on things that are harder to do when you're on airplanes all the time. >>Well, I mean, we've been reporting on the Cube. That is really a story of the haves and have nots. I mean, my take away there is he had it not been for over 19 maybe maybe the numbers would even be higher. But at the same time, though, the whole like I said, business resiliency work from home people really thinking about data protection has really come to the fore. So some of the other trends, obviously their tail winds, cloud data the whole notion of multi cloud. I'm sure we're going to hear a lot about this at VM on virtual. >>Yeah, so as you know, our objective is to be the most trusted provider of backup solutions that deliver Cloud data management. And so there's a big focus on cloud. Where we certainly think of Cloud, of course, is the Big Three hyper scaler is of AWS, Azure and Google, and you're going to hear announcements, but all three of those and products that continue to enhance our capabilities there. But it's also our partners we have in our in our virtual solutions lab. We actually have 30 partners there, but we have a huge stable, if you will, our partner ecosystem of VM Cloud service providers and we're excited that they're going to be there as well and we're highlighting some of their innovations. >>Yeah. I mean, we're dropping a breaking analysis this week on Cloud all three of those cloud suppliers. As you mentioned, >>we >>have a lot of momentum behind, you know, their businesses. Right now it's the cloud. Is that pandemics? Pandemics. But downturns have always been good to cloud. And I think this is no no change. So give us a little glimpse as to what we're going to hear from a product standpoint. That theme on 20 >>20 Well, a few different, exciting things in the past is, you know, we launched being back up for ah aws. That was our first cloud native solution. We just recently launched Beam Backup or Microsoft Azure, and you're going to see iterations on those products. Demoed live on stage by the legendary Anton Cost Dev and always a fan favorite, Rick Vanover. So you're going to see demos of those. You're also going to see the first foray into partnerships with Google as well Google Cloud Platform. You combine all those hyper scaler is right now. They did Ah, I think a little over 67 billion last year in 2019 and obviously the compound annual growth rate is projected to go to 375 billion. So we're gonna highlight some of the capabilities that we've introduced in the last few months and over the rest of 2020 with them. >>Well, and you're right. I mean, we just reported we just saw in the first quarter earnings reports you got AWS has a $38 billion business growing in the mid thirties. You got azure and >>Google growing >>faster from from a smaller base, but still enormous, many, many billions. You also have the hands on labs. It's this two days, June 17th of June 18th. So check it out. Go sign up. But you've got a hands on labs that you're bringing to the virtual experience. >>Yes. So we're doing 20 breakout sessions, 10 life fashions, and that's exciting. But actually, for the first time, it was based on demand. We're doing what we call a v Mathon, and that's going to bring 20 to 30 live sessions where actually users can come and collaborate live with the experts. And one of the things about a virtual event, of course, is that this opens it up globally for people to come and register for free, but they can actually interact on an ongoing basis over those two days with the experts from being so well, some people are disappointed that we can't be their face to face. We're still going to have the legendary party. But we're also doing some of these V marathons and live interactions, which is a new opportunity for us. I think it's exciting. >>Well, you better make sure you have your auto scaling on any FCS. Some of these virtual conferences get so many people. We just saw one on Twitter with s so much demand, it went down. I'm sure you guys got your infrastructure together, so bring us home. You know, why should I attend Beam on 2020? >>Well, everyone knows VM for its high energy. It's exciting conferences, lots of announcements. We have partners there with us on stage. This is taking it to the next level. We're taking that same conference. That is exciting. Lots of energy. We're doing it online, which brings it to a global market. And we're not decreasing the energy. In fact, we're still having that legendary already. We're still doing all those massive announcements So this just is a is a next generation. I would argue of where the industry is going. We're excited to be there with our partners. >>So very exciting. Time for being blockbuster acquisition in January. Congratulations, Danny to you. And very excited for VM on. Check it out June 17th and 18th. A great thing. Typical wien, right? It just works. You go there. It's not like a huge example. This is a few things. You got an email and a couple of the things Boom registrations. Simple. Danny, thanks so much for helping us with this preview. Really appreciate it. >>Thanks very much, Dave. Always a pleasure and happy to speak with you. >>Alright, Stay safe. Everybody, This is Dave Volante for the Cube. We'll see you next time. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Jeff: Hello, everybody, and thank you for joining us today for the virtual Vertica BDC 2020. Today's breakout session is entitled "A Deep Dive "into the Vertica Mangement Console Enhancements and Roadmap." I'm Jeff Healey of Vertica Marketing. I'll be your host for this breakout session. Joining me are Bhavik Gandhi and Natalia Stavisky from Vertica engineering. But before we begin, I encourage you to submit questions or comments during the virtual session. You don't have to wait, just type your question or comment in the question box below the slides and click submit. There will be a Q and A session at the end of the presentation. We'll answer as many questions as we're able to during that time. Any questions we don't address, we'll do our best to answer them offline. Alternatively visit Vertica Forums at forum.vertica.com. Post your question there after the session. Our engineering team is planning to join the forums to keep the conversation going well after the event. Also, a reminder that you can maximize the screen by clicking the double arrow button in the lower right corner of the slides. And yes, this virtual session is being recorded and will be available to you on demand this week. We'll send you a notification as soon as it's ready. Now let's get started. Over to you, Bhavik. >> Bhavik: All right. So hello, and welcome, everybody doing this presentation of "Deep Dive into the Vertica Management Console Enhancements and Roadmap." Myself, Bhavik, and my team member, Natalia Stavisky, will go over a few useful announcements on Vertica Management Console, discussing a few real scenarios. All right. So today we will go forward with the brief introduction about the Management Console, then we will discuss the benefits of using Management Console by going over a couple of user scenarios for the query taking too long to run and receiving email alerts from Management Console. Then we will go over a few MC features for what we call Eon Mode databases, like provisioning and reviving the Eon Mode databases from MC, managing the subcluster and understanding the Depot. Then we will go over some of the future announcements on MC that we are planning. All right, so let's get started. All right. So, do you want to know about how to provision a new Vertica cluster from MC? How to analyze and understand a database workload by monitoring the queries on the database? How do you balance the resource pools and use alerts and thresholds on MC? So, the Management Console is basically our answer and we'll talk about its capabilities and new announcements in this presentation. So just to give a brief overview of the Management Console, who uses Management Console, it's generally used by IT administrators and DB admins. Management Console can be used to monitor both Eon Mode and Enterprise Mode databases. Why to use Management Console? You can use Management Console for provisioning Vertica databases and cluster. You can manage the already existing Vertica databases and cluster you have, and you can use various tools on Management Console like query execution, Database Designer, Workload Analyzer, and set up alerts and thresholds to get notified by some of your activities on the MC. So let's go over a few benefits of using Management Console. Okay. So using Management Console, you can view and optimize resource pool usage. Management Console helps you to identify some critical conditions on your Vertica cluster. Additionally, you can set up various thresholds thresholds in MC and get other data if those thresholds are triggered on the database. So now let's dig into the couple of scenarios. So for the first scenario, we will discuss about queries taking too long and using workload analyzer to possibly help to solve the problem. In the second scenario, we will go over alert email that you received from your Management Console and analyzing the problem and taking required actions to solve the problem. So let's go over the scenario where queries are taking too long to run. So in this example, we have this one query that we are running using the query execution on MC. And for some reason we notice that it's taking about 14.8 seconds seconds to execute this query, which is higher than the expected run time of the query. The query that we are running happens to be the query used by MC during the extended monitoring. Notice that the table name and the schema name which is ds_requests_issued, and, is the schema used for extended monitoring. Now in 10.0 MC we have redesigned the Workload Analyzer and Recommendations feature to show the recommendations and allow you to execute those recommendations. In our example, we have taken the table name and figured the tuning descriptions to see if there are any tuning recommendations related to this table. As we see over here, there are three tuning recommendations available for that table. So now in 10.0 MC, you can select those recommendations and then run them. So let's run the recommendations. All right. So once recommendations are run successfully, you can go and see all the processed recommendations that you have run previously. Over here we see that there are three recommendations that we had selected earlier have successfully processed. Now we take the same query and run it on the query execution on MC and hey, it's running really faster and we see that it takes only 0.3 seconds to run the query and, which is about like 98% decrease in original runtime of the query. So in this example we saw that using a Workload Analyzer tool on MC you can possibly triage and solve issue for your queries which are taking to long to execute. All right. So now let's go over another user scenario where DB admin's received some alert email messages from MC and would like to understand and analyze the problem. So to know more about what's going on on the database and proactively react to the problems, DB admins using the Management Console can create set of thresholds and get alerted about the conditions on the database if the threshold values is reached and then respond to the problem thereafter. Now as a DB admin, I see some email message notifications from MC and upon checking the emails, I see that there are a couple of email alerts received from MC on my email. So one of the messages that I received was for Query Resource Rejections greater than 5, pool, midpool7. And then around the same time, I received another email from the MC for the Failed Queries greater than 5, and in this case I see there are 80 failed queries. So now let's go on the MC and investigate the problem. So before going into the deep investigation about failures, let's review the threshold settings on MC. So as we see, we have set up the thresholds under the database settings page for failed queries in the last 10 minutes greater than 5 and MC should send an email to the individual if the threshold is triggered. And also we have a threshold set up for queries and resource rejections in the last five minutes for midpool7 set to greater than 5. There are various other thresholds on this page that you can set if you desire to. Now let's go and triage those email alerts about the failed queries and resource rejections that we had received. To analyze the failed queries, let's take a look at the query statistics page on the database Overview page on MC. Let's take a look at the Resource Pools graph and especially for the failed queries for each resource pools. And over to the right under the failed query section, I see about like, in the last 24 hours, there are about 6,000 failed queries for midpool7. And now I switch to view to see the statistics for each user and on this page I see for User MaryLee on the right hand side there are a high number of failed queries in last 24 hours. And to know more about the failed queries for this user, I can click on the graph for this user and get the reasons behind it. So let's click on the graph and see what's going on. And so clicking on this graph, it takes me to the failed queries view on the Query Monitoring page for database, on Database activities tab. And over here, I see there are a high number of failed queries for this user, MaryLee, with the reasons stated as, exceeding high limit. To drill down more and to know more reasons behind it, I can click on the plus icon on the left hand side for each failed queries to get the failure reason for each node on the database. So let's do that. And clicking the plus icon, I see for the two nodes that are listed, over here it says there are insufficient resources like memory and file handles for midpool7. Now let's go and analyze the midpool7 configurations and activities on it. So to do so, I will go over to the Resource Pool Monitoring view and select midpool7. I see the resource allocations for this resource pool is very low. For example, the max memory is just 1MB and the max concurrency is set to 0. Hmm, that's very odd configuration for this resource pool. Also in the bottom right graph for the resource rejections for midpool7, the graph shows very high values for resource rejection. All right. So since we saw some odd configurations and odd resource allocations for midpool7, I would like to see when this resource, when the settings were changed on the resource pools. So to do this, I can preview the audit logs on, are available on the Management Console. So I can go onto the Vertica Audit Logs and see the logs for the resource pool. So I just (mumbles) for the logs and figuring the logs for midpool7. I see on February 17th, the memory and other attributes for midpool7 were modified. So now let's analyze the resource activity for midpool7 around the time when the configurations were changed. So in our case we are using extended monitoring on MC for this database, so we can go back in time and see the statistics over the larger time range for midpool7. So viewing the activities for midpool7 around February 17th, around the time when these configurations were changed, we see a decrease in resource pool usage. Also, on the bottom right, we see the resource rejections for this midpool7 have an increase, linear increase, after the configurations were changed. I can select a point on the graph to get the more details about the resource rejections. Now to analyze the effects of the modifications on midpool7. Let's go over to the Query Monitoring page. All right, I will adjust the time range around the time when the configurations were changed for midpool7 and completed activities queries for user MaryLee. And I see there are no completed queries for this user. Now I'm taking a look at the Failed Queries tab and adjusting the time range around the time when the configurations were changed. I can do so because we are using extended monitoring. So again, adjusting the time, I can see there are high number of failed queries for this user. There about about like 10,000 failed queries for this user after the configurations were changed on this resource pool. So now let's go and modify the settings since we know after the configurations were changed, this user was not able to run the queries. So you can change the resource pool settings of using Management Console's database settings page and under the Resource Pools tab. So selecting the midpool7, I see the same odd configurations for this resource pool that we saw earlier. So now let's go and modify it, the settings. So I will increase the max memory and modify the settings for midpool7 so that it has adequate resources to run the queries for the user. Hit apply on the right hand top to see the settings. Now let's do the validation after we change the resource pool attributes. So let's go over to the same query monitoring page and see if MaryLee user is able to run the queries for midpool7. We see that now, after the configuration, after the change, after we changed the configuration for midpool7, the user can run the queries successfully and the count for Completed Queries has increased after we modified the settings for this midpool7 resource pool. And also viewing the resource pool monitoring page, we can validate that after the new configurations for midpool7 has been applied and also the resource pool usage after the configuration change has increased. And also on the bottom right graph, we can see that the resource rejections for midpool7 has decreased over the time after we modified the settings. And since we are using extended monitoring for this database, I can see that the trend in data for these resource pools, the before and after effects of modifying the settings. So initially when the settings were changed, there were high resource rejections and after we again modified the settings, the resource rejections went down. Right. So now let's go work with the provisioning and reviving the Eon Mode Vertica database cluster using the Management Console on different platform. So Management Console supports provisioning and reviving of Eon Mode databases on various cloud environments like AWS, the Google Cloud Platform, and Pure Storage. So for Google, for provisioning the Vertica Management Console on Google Cloud Platform you can use launch a template. Or on AWS environment you can use the cloud formation templates available for different OS's. Once you have provisioned Vertica Management Console, you can provision the Vertica cluster and databases from MC itself. So you can provision a Vertica cluster, you can select the Create new database button available on the homepage. This will open up the wizard to create a new database and cluster. In this example, we are using we are using the Google Cloud Platform. So the wizard will ask me for varius authentication parameters for the Google Cloud Platform. And if you're on AWS, it'll ask you for the authentication parameters for the AWS environment. And going forward on the Wizard, it'll ask me to select the instance Type. I will select for the new Vertica cluster. And also provide the communal location url for my Eon Mode database and all the other preferences related to the new cluster. Once I have selected all the preferences for my new cluster I can preview the settings and I can hit, if I am, I can hit Create if all looks okay. So if I hit Create, this will create a new, MC will create a new GCP instances because we are on the GCP environment in this example. It will create a cluster on this instance, it'll create a Vertica Eon Mode Database on this cluster. And it will, additionally, you can load the test data on it if you like to. Now let's go over and revive the existing Eon Mode database from the communal location. So you can do it the same using the Management Console by selecting the Revive Eon Mode database button on the homepage. This will again open up the wizard for reviving the Eon Mode database. Again, in this example, since we are using GCP Platform, it will ask me for the Google Cloud storage authentication attributes. And for reviving, it will ask me for the communal location so I can enter the Google Storage bucket and my folder and it will discover all the Eon Mode databases located under this folder. And I can select one of the databases that I would like to revive. And it will ask me for other Vertica preferences and for this video, for this database reviving. And once I enter all the preferences and review all the preferences I can hit Revive the database button on the Wizard. So after I hit Revive database it will create the GCP instances. The number of GCP instances that I created would be seen as the number of hosts on the original Vertica cluster. It will install the Vertica cluster on this data, on this instances and it will revive the database and it will start the database. And after starting the database, it will be imported on the MC so you can start monitoring on it. So in this example, we saw you can provision and revive the Vertica database on the GCP Platform. Additionally, you can use AWS environment to provision and revive. So now since we have the Eon Mode database on MC, Natalia will go over some Eon Mode features on MC like managing subcluster and Depot activity monitoring. Over to you, Natalia. >> Natalia: Okay, thank you. Hello, my name is Natalia Stavisky. I am also a member of Vertica Management Console Team. And I will talk today about the work I did to allow users to manage subclusters using the Management Console, and also the work I did to help users understand what's going on in their Depot in the Vertica Eon Mode database. So let's look at the picture of the subclusters. On the Manage page of Vertica Management Console, you can see here is a page that has blue tabs, and the tab that's active is Subclusters. You can see that there are two subclusters are available in this database. And for each of the subclusters, you can see subcluster properties, whether this is the primary subcluster or secondary. In this case, primary is the default subcluster. It's indicated by a star. You can see what nodes belong to each subcluster. You can see the node state and node statistics. You can also easily add a new subcluster. And we're quickly going to do this. So once you click on the button, you'll launch the wizard that'll take you through the steps. You'll enter the name of the subcluster, indicate whether this is secondary or primary subcluster. I should mention that Vertica recommends having only one primary subcluster. But we have both options here available. You will enter the number of nodes for your subcluster. And once the subcluster has been created, you can manage the subcluster. What other options for managing subcluster we have here? You can scale up an existing subcluster and that's a similar approach, you launch the wizard and (mumbles) nodes. You want to add to your existing subcluster. You can scale down a subcluster. And MC validates requirements for maintaining minimal number of nodes to prevent database shutdown. So if you can not remove any nodes from a subcluster, this option will not be available. You can stop a subcluster. And depending on whether this is a primary subcluster or secondary subcluster, this option may be available or not available. Like in this picture, we can see that for the default subcluster this option is not available. And this is because shutting down the default subcluster will cause the database to shut down as well. You can terminate a subcluster. And again, the MC warns you not to terminate the primary subcluster and validates requirements for maintaining minimal number of nodes to prevent database shutdown. So now we are going to talk a little more about how the MC helps you to understand what's going on in your Depot. So Depot is one of the core of Eon Mode database. And what are the frequently asked questions about the Depot? Is the Depot size sufficient? Are a subset of users putting a high load on the database? What tables are fetched and evicted repeatedly, we call it "re-fetched," in Depot? So here in the Depot Activity Monitoring page, we now have four tabs that allow you to answer those questions. And we'll go a little more in detail through each of them, but I'll just mention what they are for now. At a Glance shows you basic Depot configuration and also shows you query executing. Depot Efficiency, we'll talk more about that and other tabs. Depot Content, that shows you what tables are currently in your Depot. And Depot Pinning allows you to see what pinning policies have been created and to create new pinning policies. Now let's go through a scenario. Monitoring performance of workloads on one subcluster. As you know, Eon Mode database allows you to have multiple subclusters and we'll explore how this feature is useful and how we can use the Management Console to make decisions regarding whether you would like to have multiple subclusters. So here we have, in my setup, a single subcluster called default_subcluster. It has two users that are running queries that are accessing tables, mostly in schema public. So the query started executing and we can see that after fetching tables from Communal, which is the red line, the rest of the time the queries are executing in Depot. The green line is indicating queries running in Depot. The all nodes Depot is about 88% full, a steady flow, and the depot size seems to be sufficient for query executions from Depot only. That's the good case scenario. Now at around 17 :15, user Sherry got an urgent request to generate a report. And at, she started running her queries. We can see that picture is quite different now. The tables Sherry is querying are in a different schema and are much larger. Now we can see multiple lines in different colors. We can see a bunch of fetches and evictions which are indicated by blue and purple bars, and a lot of queries are now spilling into Communal. This is the red and orange lines. Orange line is an indicator of a query running partially in Depot and partially getting fetched from Communal. And the red line is data fetched from Communal storage. Let's click on the, one of the lines. Each data point, each point on the line, it'll take you to the Query Details page where you can see more about what's going on. So this is the page that shows us what queries have been run in this particular time interval which is on top of this page in orange color. So that's about one minute time interval and now we can see user Sherry among the users that are running queries. Sherry's queries involve large tables and are running against a different schema. We can see the clickstream schema in the name of the, in part of the query request. So what is happening, there is not enough Depot space for both the schema that's already in use and the one Sherry needs. As a result, evictions and fetches have started occurring. What other questions we can ask ourself to help us understand what's going on? So how about, what tables are most frequently re-fetched? So for that, we will go to the Depot Efficiency page and look at the middle, the middle chart here. We can see the larger version of this chart if we expand it. So now we have 10 tables listed that are most frequently being re-fetched. We can see that there is a clickstream schema and there are other schemas so all of those tables are being used in the queries, fetched, and then there is not enough space in the Depot, they getting evicted and they get re-fetched again. So what can be done to enable all queries to run in Depot? Option one can be increase the Depot size. So we can do this by running the following queries, which (mumbles) which nodes and storage location and the new Depot size. And I should mention that we can run this query from the Management Console from the query execution page. So this would have helped us to increase the Depot size. What other options do we have, for example, when increasing Depot size is not an option? We can also provision a second subcluster to isolate workloads like Sherry's. So we are going to do this now and we will provision a second subcluster using the Manage page. Here we're creating subcluster for Sherry or for workloads like hers. And we're going to create a (mumbles). So Sherry's subcluster has been created. We can see it here, added to the list of the subclusters. It's a secondary subcluster. Sherry has been instructed to use the new SherrySubcluster for her work. Now let's see what happened. We'll go again at Depot Activity page and we'll look at the At a Glance tab. We can see that around >> 18: 07, Sherry switched to running her queries on SherrySubcluster. On top of this page, you can see subcluster selected. So we currently have two subclusters and I'm looking, what happened to SherrySubcluster once it has been provisioned? So Sherry started using it and the lines after initial fetching from Depot, which was from Communal, which was the red line, after that, all Sherry's queries fit in Depot, which is indicated by green line. Also the Depot is pretty full on those nodes, about 90% full. But the queries are processed efficiently, there is no spilling into Communal. So that's a good case scenario. Let's now go back and take a look at the original subcluster, default subcluster. So on the left portion of the chart we can see multiple lines, that was activity before Sherry switched to her own designated subcluster. At around 18:07, after Sherry switched from the subcluster to using her designated subcluster, there is no, she is no longer using the subcluster, she is not putting a load in it. So the lines after that are turning a green color, which means the queries that are still running in default subcluster are all running in Depot. We can also see that Depot fetches and evictions bars, those purple and blue bars, are no longer showing significant numbers. Also we can check the second chart that shows Communal Storage Access. And we can see that the bars have also dropped, so there is no significant access for Communal Storage. So this problem has been solved. Each of the subclusters are serving queries from Depot and that's our most efficient scenario. Let's also look at the other tabs that we have for Depot monitoring. Let's look at Depot Efficiency tab. It has six charts and I'll go through each one of them quickly. Files Reads by Location gives an indicator of where the majority of query execution took place in Depot or in Communal. Top 10 Re-Fetches into Depot, and imagine the charts earlier in our user case, it shows tables that are most frequently fetched and evicted and then fetched again. These are good candidates to get pinned if increasing Depot size is not an option. Note that both of these charts have an option to select time interval using calendar widget. So you can get the information about the activity that happened during that time interval. Depot Pinning shows what portion of your Depot is pinned, both by byte count and by table count. And the three tables at the bottom show Depot structure. How long tables stay in Depot, we would like tables to be fetched in Depot and stay there for a long time, how often they are accessed, again, the tables in Depot, we would like to see them accessed frequently, and what the size range of tables in Depot. Depot Content. This tab allows us to search for tables that are currently in Depot and also to see stats like table size in Depot. How often tables are accessed and when were they last accessed. And the same information that's available for tables in Depot is also available on projections and partition levels for those tables. Depot Pinning. This tab allows users to see what policies are currently existing and so you can do this by clicking on the first little button and click search. This'll show you all existing policies that are already created. The second option allows you to search for a table and create a policy. You can also use the action column to modify existing policies or delete them. And the third option provides details about most frequently re-fetched tables, including fetch count, total access count, and number of re-fetched bytes. So all this information can help to make decisions regarding pinning specific tables. So that's about it about the Depot. And I should mention that the server team also has a very good presentation on the, webinar, on the Eon Mode database Depot management and subcluster management. that strongly recommend it to attend or download the slide presentation. Let's talk quickly about the Management Console Roadmap, what we are planning to do in the future. So we are going to continue focusing on subcluster management, there is still a lot of things we can do here. Promoting/demoting subclusters. Load balancing across subclusters, scheduling subcluster actions, support for large cluster mode. We'll continue working on Workload Analyzer enhancement recommendation, on backup and restore from the MC. Building custom thresholds, and Eon on HDFS support. Okay, so we are ready now to take any questions you may have now. Thank you.

>> From the SiliconANGLE media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Now here's your host Dave Vellante. (techy music) >> Hello everybody. Welcome to this episode of CUBE Insights powered by ETR. My name is Dave Vellante, and in this breaking analysis we're going to take a look at AWS. Today's October 25th, last night Amazon announced its earnings. It missed and it lowered guidance, particularly for the all-important Q4 holiday season, but I want to drill into the AWS portion of Amazon's business. When we do these breaking analysis we'd like to provide data, we'd like to provide content, context, data from our friends at ETR, things that we learn on theCUBE, input from our community, and if you look at AWS in the quarter, they came in at just around $9 billion. That was about 35% growth, and people were concerned that that's a lower growth than a year ago, so 35% is, you know, year on year comparison they were 46% last year Q3. Operating margins were also down. I'll talk a little bit about that. They were 25%, which is still pretty strong, but they were down from 31% last year in Q3. The ETR spending data shows that AWS is still strong but spending is not as robust, that's why they have a positive to neutral rating on Amazon. But Amazon's still a share gainer. When you look at the AWS customers inside of the ETR survey base, they're spending more on Amazon and less on Oracle. They're spending less on IBM, they're spending less on SAP. We talked about Cloudera last week. They're spending less on Teradata, so they're shifting spend from those legacy platforms. This is AWS customers now into AWS. The other piece is Microsoft's moving. Microsoft has been consistently growing faster than AWS, and I'm going to talk a little bit about that and what it means. So you're seeing AWS revenue slows, business is strong, but Microsoft is gaining, so let's dig into it. Alex, bring up the first slide. What I'm showing here is AWS, a little history on AWS, the quarterly revenue year on year growth rates, and what you can see here is on the left hand side is the revenue in millions, so you can see they did about $9 billion, that's the blue bars, this past quarter, just under $9 billion. On the right hand axis is the growth rate, and you can see it spiked up there in '15 and then sort of slowly came down, spiked back up in '18. You can see Q3 '18 was 46%, as I said, and then it's sort of down around 35% in Q3 of 2019. Now compare that to Microsoft. I think it grew 59% at the most recent quarter. It's been consistently up in the 60s percent growth each quarter. Now AWS will say, "Look, yeah, that's true, "but they're growing from a much smaller base." While that's true, and the other thing that AWS will say is that every year Amazon's growth is about the entire size of Azure, so in other words Amazon's growth rate and what they add is about the size of Azure. That's changing, and I'll share some data that will show you that, but this year AWS will probably add about $10 billion in new revenue, and Microsoft, if you strip out Office 365 and Skype and LinkedIn and all that other, you know, and all the SaaS stuff and just focus on the infrastructure as a service so you try to make an apples to apples comparison between AWS and Azure, Azure will be quite a bit larger than that. We think probably in the $14 to $15, maybe even $16-plus billion, so that narrative is starting to change. Now the next slide that I want to show you is our same quarterly revenue, so you can see that bar chart and the $9 billion phenomenal growth, but also show, then the red line on the right hand axis is operating margin, (clears throat) and you can see the operating margin moderated here at 25% in Q3, the announcement this week, and you can see a year ago it was 31%. So this has the street a little bit concerned. Now this is still very strong operating margins. Remember AWS, (chuckles) they started selling Compute. If you think about Dell and HPE's operating margins you're talking, you know, they're thrilled if they're in the 10%. They're, you know, oftentimes much lower than that in the single digits, sometimes, you know, low single digits, but so... So AWS much, much more profitable. Compare the AWS to some of the other leaders. Cisco, who's got 60% of the networking market, its operating margins have been in the 20% to 27% range over the last, you know, several years. Intel, which essentially has or had a monopoly, 28% to 33%, Microsoft is pure software play, or you know, largely software play, low 30%s, and again, a company that had or has, you know, a monopolistic-like, you know, cashflow and profitability. So AWS at that 25% to 30% operating margins very, very strong. Okay, now I want to shift gears and show you some of the ETR data. What this next slide shows is the net scores from the cloud sector, so what I've done is pulled from the dataset just the cloud sector and done some comparisons. Now what you can see is in the October survey the N of the entire survey is 1,336, so out of the 4,500 CIOs and IT practitioners that ETR surveys each quarter, 1,300 answered this question, and of those there were 611 Azure accounts, 546 AWS, 215 Google Cloud Platform, 157 Oracle, and 107 IBM. So you can obviously see there's multiple clouds per respondent. What the net score does, it takes the green, which is basically we're spending more, and subtracts the red, which says we're spending less, and it comes up with a net score that you can see on the right hand side. And this is just for the cloud sector. Now look at Azure's net score, 71%, that's very, very high. I mean it's up there with some of the hottest sectors in the industry and some of the pure plays like UiPath. We've talked about UiPath, like Snowflake to the companies that are demonstrating the highest net score in the ETR dataset. AWS still very strong at 63%, but not quite as strong as Azure. As we said before, there's a lot of ways to, last week, there are a lot of ways to spend money with Microsoft. Google Cloud Platform strong at 50%, but as we know, not nearly the market share of those other two, and I put in Oracle and IBM just for the sake of comparison. You can see their net scores are much, much lower, so you can, so you see the cloud continues to do really well, but particularly those two cloud leaders maintaining their dominance, but you know, Azure from a growth rate and a spending momentum standpoint is really picking up. Now the next slide that I want to show you underscores the sentiment from ETR. Remember, ETR when it released last week its October survey results they said, "We have a positive to neutral rating on AWS." Why were they neutral? Well, some of the things I was saying before is some of that spending momentum is slowing. Why are they positive? This slide underscores that. If you take all sectors, so everything for AWS, not just the cloud stuff, I mean it's all cloud, but put in AI, the machine learning, all the database activity, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, everything you can buy from AWS and then look at the Fortune 500. They're a great indicator, obviously, of spend, so the big companies, notice the net score, which is that top line, that top blue line, very consistent. It's elevated, and it's inline, and it's up, you know, up in the high 60s, so that's very, very strong. The yellow line is market share. ETR defines market share in relative terms, so how much people are spending on AWS relative to other sectors, and you can see it's a steady, steady rise, so this is why ETR and we remain positive on AWS, because also in addition to Microsoft there's a lot of ways to spend money with AWS and that keeps growing and growing and growing. So you're seeing nice continued market share gains. They continue to be a gainer. Okay, so let me wrap here. As I say, positive to neutral because what's happening is you're seeing that share gain beyond Compute. AI, machine learning, analytics very hot. AWS cited, or Amazon cited SageMaker as a tailwind for their business. Database now at AWS is a multibillion dollar business. Amazon cited Aurora as again another tailwind. Here's the thing, the reason why we're somewhat neutral on Amazon and AWS specifically is the law of large numbers appears to finally be kicking in, you know, or is it? I had a conversation this spring with a Gartner analyst, John Lovelock, and I asked him can this continue, so let's, Alex, if you would, play the video and then we'll come back and talk about it. Can a company that size, in your experience, continue to grow at that pace? >> Absolutely. There is nothing stopping AWS from taking advantage of this market. We are nowhere near saturated for cloud changes. Most of software spend is still on legacy and maintenance of software on-prem. There is still a great deal of money being spent on servers and infrastructure and networking equipment, and all of that gets bled out into the cloud eventually. >> So you heard John Lovelock, he said there's really nothing there to stop AWS. They're going to continue to gain, and so now the question is will they bounce back to the growth rates that they did before, or are those large numbers, the law of large numbers kicking in. Let's talk about Microsoft a little bit. Microsoft is clearly gaining. So in 2017 Microsoft's cloud business, when you strip out, or you try to strip out, it's a little fuzzy, there's some gray area going on in there, but you do your best. I talked to the folks at Wikibon and Ralph Finos tracks this stuff very closely, but AWS or Azure was about 33% of AWS's business. If you go to 2018 it was about 41%, so you had Azure at a, you know, starting to crack or get close to the $10 billion mark. In 2019 it's going to be closer to 50% of AWS's business, so if AWS, let's say AWS comes in at $34, $35 billion this year, that puts Azure, you know, $13, $14, $15, maybe even $16 billion. So they're starting to get to the high 40%s or even that 50% level, so Microsoft is making moves. Microsoft is partner-friendly. People in the ecosystem at Amazon, they complain that they sometimes are concerned with Amazon competing with them. Microsoft doing partnerships even with Oracle, so this is kind of interesting that Oracle and Microsoft are partnering. One of the areas that's been difficult to get into the cloud is mission-critical workloads, and that's really what Oracle and Microsoft are partnering on. It's giving Oracle customers an option, because they may not want to go to the Oracle cloud, they may not like the Oracle cloud. They may feel like it's too locked-in. They may feel like it's too deficient relative to Azure. They may be a big Microsoft customer and they feel more comfortable with Azure, so the deal between Oracle and Microsoft, the partnership, will allow more mission-critical workloads to go into Azure. We know that AWS, if you look at the case studies on AWS's website for the Database and the Database migration they've done, they've been very successful but it's largely the analytic stuff, the data warehousing, the data marts. It's not a lot of mission-critical stuff and you see Amazon itself is struggling to, you know, convert off of Oracle into, you know, its own transaction database, and that's still taking, you know, a long time. They'll certainly tout the successes they've had in the data warehousing, but the transaction stuff is much, much tougher, so that's something that we're watching as part of what we sometimes refer to as cloud 2.0. Will the mission-critical workloads migrate into the cloud? Now again, the Microsoft numbers are fuzzy. You've got to peel, you know, the onion back. You have to take out Office 365. You got to, is Skype in there? What about GitHub, you know? They throw these things in. The companies, you know, they'll all play the kitchen sink game, but here's something I want you to think about. What percent of AWS's business comes from the Amazon retail side? It's got to be substantial. Amazon retail is easily a 10% customer of AWS, and likely much, much larger. Could Amazon retail account for $10 billion in AWS's revenue, you know it's possible. How are transfer costs allocated from quarter to quarter? What is, you know, Amazon retail pay? I think they pay rack rates, but you know, we're not sure how those transfer costs are allocated. People talk about breaking up AWS. I read an article last week that said that Jeff Bezos may even spin it off before the government forces him to. I'm not sure that makes sense. I don't think it makes any sense to do that from a business standpoint because right now AWS is subsidizing Amazon's entry into all these other markets. They're into grocery, they're into content, they're into now logistics. They're vertically integrating into logistics, and that's one of the items that they mentioned in their conference call last night, which was they're investing in logistics as potentially a future business, another, you know, big pillar. You know their ad business is really taking off, so you're seeing, you know, Amazon, like Microsoft, a lot of ways to spend with those guys. So is this pullback, the stock's down about 34 points today. Is it a buying opportunity? Yeah, probably yes, but cloud 2.0 undoubtedly in this next phase is going to see tougher competition, you know, particularly from Microsoft but of course then you've got Alibaba, and you know, China, Inc. and the China cloud coming in, and you've got, you know, partners saying, "Hey, we have to be careful because if we don't move fast "Amazon's going to gobble up some of our business," so they're hedging their bets, and you're seeing some of the customers hedge their bets as well. Bottom line, though, Amazon remains very, very strong, a leader, a continued share-gainer, so we're very positive on the company generally and AWS specifically. All right, this is Dave Vellante. Thank you for watching this version, this episode of CUBE Insights powered by ETR. We'll see you next time. (techy music)