(relaxing music) >> Hello everyone and welcome back to theCUBE's continuing coverage of AWS re:Invent. My name is Savannah Peterson and I am absolutely thrilled for this segment. We are joined by leaders at Cisco AppDynamics as well as Royal Caribbean. The two have been working together for over five years, leveraging full stack observability. We're going to dig in, but first of all please welcome Alice from Royal Caribbean and Greg from Cisco AppDynamics to the show. Hey friends. >> Hi. How are you doing? >> I'm excited, clearly. How are you doing, Greg? >> I'm doing fantastic. Thanks for having me on the show today. >> Hey, it's our, it is absolutely our pleasure. Alice, I have to start with you. I don't think there are too many industries that have gotten as much coverage as cruising has over the last couple of years. You've been working with Royal Caribbean for over a decade so you've seen it through the stormy seas of the pandemic, if you will. What has the last few years and the last few months been like for you? >> You know, it's really been a wild ride. To your point, we were sailing high, and then I don't think any other industry experienced what we did in COVID, that you walked in one day and then that day the whole industry shut down. So it was a big challenge for us. And then as soon as we shut down and we weathered the storm with COVID, then we had what we called our healthy return to service. So as quickly as it stopped, we had to start sailing again. So it's really been a challenge but we're happy to be back on our feet and heading in the right direction now. >> I really hope we can continue the sailing metaphors throughout the course of this interview. And you nailed that for a segment, Alice, I'm so here for it. I want to talk about how you've worked together but I want to give Greg a second to chime in here. So, Greg, you're the executive CTO at Cisco AppDynamics. How have you and the team weathered the last two and a half years? >> Well, you know, it's interesting, the pandemic really brought together an interesting conundrum, right? So on one hand, you had, you know, the consumers, the end users that became very reliant on digital services. They had a function in a way that was very performing, right? So, 84% of the respondents that we had come back through a report called the App Attention Index, came back and said that digital services were really instrumental for them to get back to some level of normalcy. But the interesting part that came about that is that out of those respondents, 60% of them blamed the brand if the application did not work the way they expected it. So they didn't really care about the complex- >> Wow. >> In the back end, right? So when you look at- >> Yeah. >> You look at the shift in the IT department, the IT department had to go out and quickly innovate. Quickly start to introduce new services, which ultimately brought together a sprawl in their technology stack. So, when you're adding to it you're not taking things away, you're continuously growing. So finding that the problems or the root cause of an application issue became more difficult. So that's where, you know, from a Cisco AppDynamics perspective, you know we're one of the leading observability and application performance monitoring tools. So, we help customers like Royal Caribbean to be able to zero in on root cause and ensure that their end users have that best experience. >> It's, I'm smiling as someone who was a former waitress and I can remember the amount of times I was scolded for something that happened that was far out of my control in the complex layers of the kitchen. (Greg laughs) And I think that anyone who's had a poor customer experience while interacting with a brand may or may not intentionally, you know, I think it's actually sometimes very unintentional to your point, get frustrated with said brand. I can imagine that is an experience and a priority that you have at Royal Caribbean, Alice. How has full stack observability played a role in your team's ability to serve the customers and keep your community engaged during this very kind of wobbly time? >> Yeah, you know, we have really worked hard to improve and remove friction from our guest vacation. And we want to keep them on vacation and having a great time. You know, we say we don't really sell a cruise. We sell an experience. So we use AppDynamics to monitor those key applications that our guests are interacting with to ensure that they're having that experience that we expect. You know, we've learned that just because a system or a server says, hey I'm up 99% of the time, that doesn't mean that my guests are experiencing that same type of stability, you know? So once again, we really worked well with AppDynamics. They've partnered with us to ensure that, you know, our guests are getting that vacation experience they're looking for. >> Do you think, just a follow up there, do you think that you would have advanced in the ways that you have working with Cisco AppDynamics and across functions over the last few years, without this crunch? Was necessity the mother of invention for you to any degree? >> You know, I don't think that the crunch brought it on 'cause we, like I said, we started this journey back in 2017. And we're not unlike a lot of companies where we're on this maturity ride where we want to go from being reactive, where our guests are telling us something is broken, to being preventive. Definitely, you know, COVID played into this because I think we learned to do less, you know, more with less. So, you know, it's very hard in the cruise industry. We did take a hit but we were able to use the AppDynamics tools to ensure that our systems were running with having less people also watching those systems. So less eyes on glass, more automation. >> And that's more stability, more credibility, and more transparency is definitely something that we're all looking forward. And it's nice to see that implemented, especially at scale when you're dealing with so many customers from all over the world trying to access your service and wanting that personalized experience. Greg, what does it feel like for you as a leader to hear someone like Alice say how powerful your tool has been in ensuring that customer experience? >> Yeah, that's, you know, it's absolutely fantastic. And especially, you know, Alice is absolutely right. You know, the cruise industry was really, had a very unique challenge in front of them. And I really applaud the folks at Royal Caribbean for stepping up to make sure that when the pandemic eased, so to speak, that the experience to the customer was actually even better, right? So when we were able to work and partner together to make sure that, you know, the user experience is topnotch, the availability's there, the resiliency of their platform is there. So, by working with customers like Royal Caribbean is really one of the shining stars that we can talk about that really helped make a big difference in, you know that post pandemic era to be able to really do what's right for the customer. >> How often are you engaging with customers like Alice as a team? How big is that feedback in your product roadmap? >> Oh, personally, I'm engaged with customers on a daily basis. And I see it across the map from many different industries. And, you know, a lot of folks had different challenges, but the ultimate commonality that I've seen across, you know, multiple industries is that, you know, when we're in that pandemic state, digital services were the only way that their customers were interacting with them. So, you know, when you're looking at a bank or you're looking at, you know, different types of travel agencies and organizations that, you know like Royal Caribbean as well, that really had that opportunity to focus on what's the most valuable thing to them which is user experience. It's a very, very common trend that we saw. And, you know, you see an expedited path of digital transformation happen. And really that's where we partner with, you know, customers like Royal Caribbean and many others across different industries to make sure that the business outcomes were being driven towards the proper direction as well as that, you know, the user experience. And I don't think I can emphasize user experience as being so critically important, anymore than I already have. But it's really one of the most valuable currencies most organizations have. >> One of my favorite lines is community is your first defensible asset. And you know, you can talk about user experience as much as you want on here, at the end of the day. If people aren't having a positive interaction with your brand or your product, it's probably not going to last super long unless it's legacy. And we don't have to go down that rabbit hole today. >> Especially if I can add, there's a lot of competition there. >> Of course. >> Right? There's a lot of competition out there. So if your applications do not perform or your digital services do not perform the end user has the quick ability to just quickly delete and move on. And the same thing with what Alice sees in the cruise industry, you know. You have an opportunity to rise to the top and I really applaud them for taking advantage of that opportunity. >> Yeah. Well, I'm here for both of you cheering each other on. Certainly, the water level rises together. >> That's right. >> Alice, what sort of challenges are you taking on currently that you're able to disclose? What sort of leaps do you think or it doesn't have to be leaps, but what kind of experience are you hoping to continue to enhance for Royal Caribbean customers? >> You know, right now, you know with our current connectivity it's all about managing that bandwidth. You know, we're hoping to go to that state where bandwidth isn't at a high cost. So now we're going to be even able to watch our user interaction more from ship to shore. You know, and we're maybe moving to that area where we're thinking cloud first from a shift. If you think about it, we've got 50 plus data centers floating around the world. So that connectivity is key. Now we're opening up that bandwidth. Now I need to see how the transactions are performing as we come off ship. You know, with that, once again, that cloud first mentality. It's a super exciting time for us. And I really see, you know, AppD is going to play a role in that. >> I love that visual just for a second of 50 data centers with also, surrounded by people having a very wonderful time on board. What a nice thought. I can't say that every data center I've ever been to is as glamorous, fun or sexy as being on a Royal Caribbean ship. However, I hope that we move perhaps in that direction. We were just at Super Computing a few weeks ago and it was great to see all the hardware there. So you never know. What role do you see yourself and the team and Cisco AppDynamics playing in that future for companies like Royal Caribbean, Greg? >> You know, it's really, it's really staying right lockstep with our customers as they move through that digital transformation efforts. The key piece is that we look at it from that full stack view. So we offer full stack observability, which, you know, if you look at the challenges that we want to go after. Traditional IT departments were historically siloed pretty significantly between, you know network and infrastructure, security, app dev. So I mean, ensuring that we can get our customers to be able to have that common view that shows what's the real important pieces across all domains. So when they start moving down the path of digital transformation, that's an opportunity to also revamp how their processes are, the people interact and the technology that they use to be able to deliver the proper business outcomes. So we talk a lot with our customers around full stack observability, but the key part is business context. So if you have a big effort for digital transformation, you're starting to add new services to it. How do you know if it's actually impacting the business in a positive or negative way? So by us implementing the business context to ensure that you understand the investments being made, that you can show to your business leaders, is showing an uptake in the business outcomes you're going after. It's really, really about a strong partnership with our customers. But also ensuring that their business is being positively impacted by our technology to be able to help them really align the teams and be able to have the right desired outcomes. >> I love that Greg and I love that customer first, that community first attitude. It's something that you both share. Final question for the two of you. And I'm going to start with you, Alice, since I suspect you've probably been on more cruises than Greg and I combined. Though I could be making a wild assumption. Where are you cruising to next? >> You know, I just got off a cruise. So next stop, I want to revisit the Galapagos. I think the Galapagos is the best place to go. And if you haven't done it that's absolutely where you should go. >> Oh, it's a beautiful trip. Greg, have you ever done the Galapagos? Is that going to be your next Royal Caribbean cruise? >> I have never done the Galapagos, but that may just have made it to my list. >> Fantastic. Well, I second Alice's endorsement on that. I had the pleasure of going about a decade ago. Very magical place that teaches you a lot about nature. Much like the two of you have taught us very extensively about full stack observability, how it applies to user experience, customer experience and the ocean that I am currently staring at here in Pacifica, California. Alice, thank you so much for joining us from Miami. Greg, to you in Colorado. I hope that you both continue to work in harmony together and that we can all see each other on the friendly seas soon. Thank you all for tuning in to our AWS re:Invent coverage. This is theCUBE. My name's Savannah Peterson. And we look forward to seeing you for our next segment. (relaxing music)

>>Hi, I'm John Ferry with the Cube. We're here for a special exclusive conversation with David Geria, the CEO of Mongo MongoDB. Well established leading platform. It's been around for, I mean, decades. So continues to become the platform of choice for high performance data. This modern data stack that's emerging, a big part of the story here at a reinvent 2022 on top of an already performing a cloud with, you know, chips and silicon specialized instances, the world's gonna be getting faster, smaller, higher performance, lower cost specialized. Dave, thanks for taking the time with me today, >>John. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. >>Do you see yourself as a ISV or you just go with that, because that's kind of a nomenclature >>When, when I think of the term isv, I think of the notion of someone building an end solution for customer to get something done. Or what we're building is essentially a developer data platform and we have thousands of ISVs who build software applications on our platform. So how could we be an isv? Because by definition I, you know, we enable people to do so many different things and you know, they can be the, you know, the largest companies of the world trying to transform their business or startups who are trying to disrupt either existing industries or create new ones. And so that's, and, and that's how our customers view MongoDB and, and the whole Atlas platform basically enables them to do some amazing things. The reason for that is, you know, you know, we believe that what we are enabling developers to do is be able to reduce the friction and the work required to build modern applications through the document model, which is really intuitive to the way developers think and code through the distributed nature of platforms. >>So, you know, things like charting no other company on the planet offers the capabilities we do to enable people to build the most highly performant and scalable applications. And also what we also do is enable people to, you know, run different types of workloads on our platform. So we have obviously transactional, we have search, we have time series, we enable people to do things like sophisticated device synchronization from Edge to the back end. We do graph, we do real time analytics. So being able to consolidate all that with developers on one elegant unified platform really makes, you know, it attractive for developers to build on long >>Db. You know, you guys are a feature partner of aws and I would speculate, I don't know if you can comment on this, but I would imagine that you probably produce a lot of revenue for Amazon because you really can't turn off EC two when you do a database work. So, you know, you kind of crank it all the time. You guys are a top partner. How long have you guys been a partner with aws? What's the relationship? >>The relationship's been strong, actually, Amazon spoke at one of our first user conferences in 2013. And since then we've been working together. We've been at reinvent since essentially 2015. And we've been a premier partner, an Emerald sponsor for the last Nu you know, I think four or five years. And so we're very committed to the relationship and I think there's some things that we have a lot, we have a lot of things in common. We care a lot about customers and for us, our customers, our developers, we care a lot about removing friction from their day to day work to move, be able to move fast and be able to, in order to seize new opportunities and respond to new threats. And so consequently, I think the partnership, obviously by nature of our, our common objectives has really come together. >>Talk about the journey of Mongo. I mean, you look back at the history, I, you go back the old lamp stack days, right? So you know, the day developer traction is just really kind of stuck at the none. I mean, it's, it's really well known. And I remember over the conversations, Dave Mongo doesn't scale. I mean, every year we heard something along those lines cuz it just kept scaling. I heard the same thing with AWS back in 2013 timeframe. You, oh, it's just, it's really not for a real prime time. It's, it's for hobbyists, not so much builders, maybe startup cloud, but that developer traction is translated. Can you take us through the journey of Mongo where it is now and, and kinda look back and, and, and take us through what's the state of the art now, >>Right? So just for those of you who, who, those, you know, those in your audience who don't know too much about Mon Be I'll just, you know, start with the background. The company was astounded by developers. It was basically the CTO and some key developers from Double Click who really saw the challenges and the limitations of the relational database architecture because they're trying to serve billions of ads per day and they constantly need to work on the constraints and relational database. And so they essentially decided, why don't we just build a database that we'd want to use? And that was a catalyst to starting MongoDB. The first thing they focused on was, rather than having a tabler data structure, they focused on a document data structure. Why documents? Because there's much more natural and intuitive to work with data and documents in terms of you can set parent child relationships and how you just think about the relationship with data is much more natural in a document than trying to connect data in a, you know, in hundreds of different tables. >>And so that enabled developers to just move so much faster. The second thing they focused on was building a truly distributed architecture, not kind of some adjunct, you know, you know, architecture that maybe made the existing architecture a little bit more scalable. They really took from the ground up a truly distributed architecture. So where you can do native replication, you can do charting and you can do it on a global basis. And so that was the, the other profound, you know, thing that they did. And then since then, what we've also done is, you know, the document model is truly a super set of other models. So we enabled other capabilities like search you can do joins, so you can do very transaction intensive use case among be where fully asset compliant. So you have the highest forms of data guarantees you can do very sophisticated things like time series, you can do device synchronization, you can do real time analytics because we can carve off read only nodes to be able to read and query data in real time rather than have to offload that data into a data warehouse. >>And so that enables developers to just build a wide variety of, of application longing to be, and they get one unified developer interface. It's highly elegant and seamless. And so essentially the cost and tax of matching multiple point tools goes away when, when I think of the term isv, I think of the notion of someone building an end solution for a customer to get something done. Or what we're building is essentially a developer data platform and we have thousands of ISVs who build software applications on our platform. So how could we be an isv? Because by definition I, you know, we enable people to do so many different things and you know, they can be the, you know, the largest companies in the world trying to transform their business or startups or trying to disrupt either existing industries or create new ones. And so that's, and and that's how our customers view MongoDB and, and the whole Atlas platform basically enables them to do some amazing things. >>Yeah, we're seeing a lot of activity on the Atlas. Do you see yourself as a ISV or you just go with that because that's kind of a nomenclature? >>No, we don't view ourselves as ISV at all. We view ourselves as a developer data platform. And the reason for that is, you know, you know, we believe that what we are enabling developers to do is be able to reduce the friction and the work required to build modern applications through the document model, which is really intuitive to the way developers think and code through the distributed nature of platforms. So, you know, things like sharding, no other company on the planet offers the capabilities we do to enable people to build the most highly performant and scalable applications. And also what we also do is enable people to, you know, run different types of workflows on our platform. So we have obviously transactional, we have search, we have time series, we enable people to do things like sophisticated device synchronization from Edge to the back end. We do graph, we do real time analytics. So being able to consolidate all that with developers on one elegant unified platform really makes, you know, it attractive for developers to build on long ndb. >>You know, the cloud adoption really is putting a lot of pressure on these systems and you're seeing companies in the ecosystem and AWS stepping up, you guys are doing great job, but we're seeing a lot more acceleration around it, on staying on premise for certain use cases. Yet you got the cloud as well growing for workloads and, and you get this hybrid steady state as an operational mode. I call that 10 of the classic cloud adoption track record. You guys are an example of multiple iterations in cloud. You're doing a lot more, we're starting to see this tipping point with others and customers coming kind of on that same pattern. Building platforms on top of aws on top of the primitives, more horsepower, higher level services, industry specific capabilities with data. I mean this is a new kind of cloud, kind of a next generation, you knows next gen you got the classic high performance infrastructure, it's getting better and better, but now you've got this new application platform, you know, reminds me of the old asp, you know, if you will. I mean, so are you seeing customers doing things differently? Can you share your, your reaction to this role of, you know, this new kind of SaaS platform that just isn't an application, it's, it's more, it's deeper than that. What's going on here? We call it super cloud, but >>Like what? Yeah, so essentially what what, you know, a lot of our customers doing, and by the way we have over 37,000 customers of all shapes and sizes from the largest companies in the world to cutting edge startups who are building applications among B, why do they choose MongoDB? Because essentially it's the, you know, the fastest way to innovate and the reason it's the fastest way to innovate is because they can work with data so much easier than working with data on other types of architecture. So the document model is profoundly a breakthrough way to work with data to make it very, very easy. So customers are essentially building these modern applications, you know, applications built on microservices, event driven architectures, you know, addressing sophisticated use cases like time series to, and then ultimately now they're getting into machine learning. We have a bunch of companies building machine learning applications on top of MongoDB. And the reason they're doing that is because one, they get the benefits of being able to, you know, build and work with, with data so much easier than any other platform. And it's highly scale and performant in a way that no other platform is. So literally they can run their, you know, workloads both locally and one, you know, autonomous zone or they can basically be or available zone or they could be basically, you know, anywhere in the world. And we also offer multicloud capabilities, which I can get into later. >>Let's talk about the performance side. I know I was speaking with some Amazon folks every year it's the same story. They're really working on the physics, they're getting the chips, they wanna squeeze as much energy out of that. I've never met a developer that said they wanna run their workload on a slower platform or slower hardware. We know said no developer, right? No one wants to do that. >>Correct. >>So you guys have a lot of experience tuning in with Graviton instances, we're seeing a lot more AWS EC two instances, we're seeing a lot more kind of integrated end to end stories. Data is now security, it's tied into data stacks or data modern kind of data hybrid stack. A lot going on around the hardware performance specialization, the role of data, kind of a modern data stack emerging. What, what's your thoughts on the that that Yeah, >>I, I think if you had asked me, you know, when the cloud started going vogue, like you know, the, you know, the, the later part of the last decade and told me, you know, sitting here 12, 15 years later, would you know, would we be talking about, you know, chip processing speeds? I'd probably thought, nah, we would've moved on by then. But what's really clear is that customers, to your point, customers care about performance, they care about price performance, right? So AWS's investments in Graviton, we have actually deployed a significant portion of our at fleet on Amazon now runs on Graviton. You know, they've built other chip sets like train and, and inferential for like, you know, training models and running inferences. They're doing things like Nitro. And so what that really speaks to is that the cloud providers are focusing on the price performance of their, as you call it, their primitives and their infrastructure and the infrastructure layer that are still very, very important. >>And, and you know, if you look at their revenue, about 60 to 70% of the revenue comes from that pure infrastructure. So to your point, they can't offer a second class solution and still win. So given that now they're seeing a lot of competition from Azure, Azure's building their own chip sets, Google's already obviously doing that and and building specialized chip sets for machine learning. You're seeing these cloud providers compete. So they have to really compete to make their platform the most performant, the most price competitive in the marketplace. Which gives us a great platform to build on to enable developers to build these incredibly highly performant applications that customers are now demand. >>I think that's a really great point. I mean, you know, it's so funny Dave, because you know, I remember those, we don't talk speeds and feeds anymore. We're not talking about boxes. I mean that's old kind of school thinking because it was a data center mentality, speeds and feeds and that was super important. But we're kind of coming back to that in the cloud now in distributed architecture, as you put your platforms out there for developers, you have to run fast. You gotta, you can't give the developer subpar or any kind of performance that's, they'll, they'll go somewhere else. I mean that's the reality of what developers, no one, again, no one says I wanna go on the slower platform unless it's some sort of policy based on price or some sort of thing. But, but for the most part it's gotta run fast. So you got the tail of two clouds going on here, you got Amazon classic ias, keep making it faster under the hood. >>And then you got the new abstraction layers of the higher level services. That's where you guys are bridging this new, new generational shift where it's like, hey, you know what? I can go, I can run a headless application, I can run a SAS app that's refactored with data. So you've seen a lot more innovation with developers, you know, running stuff in, in the C I C D pipeline that was once it, and you're seeing security and data operations kind of emerging as a structural change of how companies are, are are transforming on the business side. What's your reaction to that business transformation and the role of the developer? >>Right, so I mean I have to obviously give amazing kudos to the, you know, to AWS and the Amazon team for what they've built. Obviously they're the ones who kind of created the cloud industry and they continue to push the innovation in the space. I mean today they have over 300 services and you know, obviously, you know, no star today is building anything not on the cloud because they have so many building blocks to start with. But what we though have found from our talking to our customers is that in some ways there is still, you know, the onus is on the customer to figure out which building block to use to be able to stitch together the applications and solutions they wanna build. And what we have done is taken essentially an opinionated point of view and said we will enable you to do that. >>You know, using one data model. You know, Amazon today offers I think 17 or 18 different types of databases. We don't think like, you know, having a tool for every job makes sense because over time the tax and cost of learning, managing and supporting those different applications just don't make a lot of sense or just become cost prohibitive. And so we think offering one data model, one, you know, elegant user experience, you know, one way to address the broadest set of of use cases is that we think is a better way. But clearly customers have choice. They can use Amazon's primitives and those second layer services as you as you described, or they can use us. Unfortunately we've seen a lot of customers come to us with our approach and so does Amazon. And I have to give obviously again kudos and Amazon is very customer obsessed and so we have a great relationship with them, both technically in terms of the product integrations we do as well as working with 'em in the field, you know, on joint customer opportunities. >>Speaking of, while you mentioned that, I wanna just ask you, how is that marketplace relationship going with aws? Some of the partners are really seeing great economic and joint selling or them selling your, your stuff. So there's a real revenue pop there in that religion. Can you comment on that? >>So we had been working the partner in the marketplace for many years now, more from a field point of view where customers could leverage their existing commitments to AWS and leverage essentially, you know, using Atlas and applying in an atlas towards their commits. There was also some sales incentives for people in the field to basically work together so that, you know, everyone won should we collectively win a customer? What we recently announced is as pay as you Go initiative, where literally a customer on the Amazon marketplace can basically turn up, you know, an Alice instance with no commitment. So it's so easy. So we're just pushing the envelope to just reduce the friction for people to use Atlas on aws. And it's working really very well. The uptake has been been very strong and and we feel like we're just getting started because we're so excited about the results we're >>Seeing. You know, one of the things that's kind of not core in the keynote theme, but I think it's underlying message is clear in the industry, is the developer productivity. You said making things easy is a big deal, self-service, getting in and trying, these are what developer friendly tools are like and platform. So I have to ask you, cuz this comes up a lot in our kind of business conversation, is, is if you take digital transformation concept to its completion, assuming now you know, as a thought exercise, you completely transform a company with technology that's, that is the business transformation outcome. Take it to completion. What does that look like? I mean, if you go there you'd say, okay, the company is the app, the company is the data, it's not a department serving the business, it's the business. And so I think this is kind of what we're seeing as the next big mountain climb, which is companies that do transform there, they are technology companies, they're not a department like it. So I think a lot of companies are kind of saying, wait a minute, why would we have a department? It should be the company. What's your your your view on this because this >>Yeah, so I I've had the for good fortune of being able to talk to thousand customers all over the world. And you know, one thing John, they never tell me, they never tell me that they're innovating too quickly. In fact, they always tell me the reverse. They tell me all the obstacles and impediments they have to be able to be able to be able to move fast. So one of the reasons they gravitate to MongoDB is just the speed that they wish they can build applications to, to your point, developer productivity. And by definition, developer productivity is a proxy for innovation. The faster you can make your developers, you know, move, the faster they can push out code, the faster they can iterate and build new solutions or add more capabilities on the existing applications, the faster you can innovate either to, again, seize new opportunities or to respond to new threats in your business. >>And so that resonates with every C level executive. And to your point, the developers not some side hustle that they kind of think about once in a while. It's core to the business. So developers have amassed enormous amount of power and influence. You know, their, their, their engineering teams are front and center in terms of how they think about building capabilities and and building their business. And that's also obviously enabled, you know, to your point, every software company, every company's not becoming a software company because it all starts with softwares, software enables, defines or creates almost every company's value proposition. >>You know, it makes me smile because I love operating systems as one of my hobbies in college was, you know, systems programming and I remember those network kind of like the operating systems, the cloud. So, you know, everything's got specialized capabilities and that's a big theme here at Reinvent. If you look at the announcements Monday night with Peter DeSantis, you got, you got new instances, new chips. So this whole engine kind of specialized component is like an engine. You got a core and you got other subsystems. This is gonna be an integral part of how companies architect their platform or you know, Adam calls it the landing zone or whatever they wanna call it. But you gotta start seeing a new architectural thinking for companies. What's your, can you share your experience on how companies should look at this opportunity as a plethora of more goodness on the hardware? On hardware, but like chips and instances? Cause now you can mix and match. You've got, you've got, you got everything you need to kind of not roll your own but like really build foundational high performance capabilities. >>Yeah, so I I, so I think this is where I think Amazon is really enabling all companies, including, you know, companies like Mon db, you know, push the envelope and innovation. So for example, you know, the, the next big hurdle for us, I think we've seen two big platform shifts over the last 15 years of platform shifts, you know, to mobile and the platform shift to cloud. I believe the next big platform shift is going from dumb apps to smart apps, which you're building in, you know, machine learning and you know, AI and just very sophisticated automation. And when you start automating human decision making, rather than, you know, looking at a dashboard and saying, okay, I see the data now, now I have to do this. You can automate that into your applications and make your applications leveraging real time data become that much more smart. And that ultimately then becomes a developer challenge. And so we feel really good about our position in taking advantage of those next big trends and software leveraging the price performance curves that, you know, Amazon continues to push in terms of their hardware performance, networking performance, you know, you know, price, performance and storage to build those next generation of modern applications. >>Okay, so let me get this straight. You have next generation intelligent smart apps and you have AI generative solutions coming out around the corner. This is like pretty good position for Mongo to be in with data. I mean, this is what you do, you're in that exactly of the action. What's it like? I mean, you must be like trying to shake the world and wake up. The world's starting to wake up now through this. So what's, what's it like? >>Well, I mean we're really excited and bullish about the future. We think that we're well positioned because we know as to your point, you know, we have amassed amazing amount of developer mindshare. We are the most popular modern data platform out there in the world. There's developers in almost every corner of the planet using us to do something. And to your point, leveraging data and these advances in machine learning ai. And we think the more AI becomes democratized, not, you know, done by a bunch of data scientists sitting in some corner office, but essentially enabling developers to have the tools to build these very, very sophisticated, smart applications will, you know, will position as well. So that's, you know, obviously gonna be a focus for us over the, frankly, I think this is gonna be like a 10 year, 10 15 year run and we're just getting started in this whole >>Area. I think you guys are really well positioned. I think that's a great point. And Adam mentioned to me and, and Mike interviewed, he said on stage talk about it, the role of a data analyst kind of goes away. Everyone's a data analyst, right? You'll still see specialization on, on core data engineering, which is kind of like an SRE role for data. So data ops and data as code is a big deal making data applications. So again, exciting times and you guys are well positioned. If you had to bumper sticker the event this week here at Reinvent, what would you, how would you categorize this this point in time? I mean, Adam's great leader, he is gonna help educate customers how to use technology to, for business advantage and transformation. You know, Andy did a great job making technology great and innovative and setting the table, Adam's gotta bring it to the enterprises and businesses. So it's gonna be an interesting point in time we're in now. What, how would you categorize this year's reinvent, >>Right? I think the, the, the tech world is pivoting towards what I'd call rationalization or cost optimization. I think people obviously in, you know, the last 10 years have, you know, it's all about speed, speed, speed. And I think people still value speed, but they wanna do it at some sort of predictable cost model. And I think you're gonna see a lot more focus around cost and cost optimization. That's where we think having one platform is by definition of vendor consolidation way for people to cut costs so that they can basically, you know, still move fast but don't have to incur the tax of using a whole bunch of different point tools. And so we think we're well positioned. So the bumper sticker I think about is essentially, you know, do more for less with MongoDB. >>Yeah. And the developers on the front lines. Great stuff. You guys are great partner, a top partner at AWS and great reflection on, on where you guys been, but really where you are now and great opportunity. David Didier, thank you so much for spending the time and it's been great following Mongo and the continued rise of, of developers of the on the front lines really driving the business and that, and they are, I know, driving the business, so, and I think they're gonna continue Smart apps, intelligent apps, ai, generative apps are coming. I mean this is real. >>Thanks John. It's great speaking with >>You. Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much. Okay.

>>Hello everyone and welcome back to The Cube's Continuing coverage of AWS Reinvent. My name is Savannah Peterson and I am absolutely thrilled for this segment. We are joined by leaders at Cisco App Dynamics, as well as Royal Caribbean. The two have been working together for over five years, leveraging full stack observability. We're gonna dig in, but first of all, please welcome Alice from Royal Caribbean and Greg from Cisco App, app Dynamics to the show. Hey friends. >>Hi. How are you doing? >>I'm excited, clearly. How are you doing, Greg? >>I'm doing fantastic. Thanks for having me on the show today. >>Hey, it's our, it is absolutely our pleasure. Alice, I have to start with you. I don't think there are too many industries that have gotten as much coverage as cruising has over the last couple of years. You've been working with Royal Caribbean for over a decade, so you've seen it through the stormy seas of the pandemic, if you will. What has the last few years and the last few months been like for you? >>You know, it's, it's really been a wild ride. To your point, we were sailing high and then I don't think any other industry experience what we did in Covid, that you walked in one day and then that day the whole industry shut down. So it was a, it was a big challenge for us. And then as soon as we shut down and we weathered the storm with Covid, then we have what we called our healthy and return to service. So as quickly as it stopped, we had to start sailing again. So it's, it's really been a challenge, but we're happy to be back on our feet and heading in the right direction now. >>I, I really hope we can continue the sailing metaphors throughout the course of this interview. And you, you nailed that for a segment. Alice, I'm, I'm, I'm so, I'm so here for it. I, I, I wanna talk about how you've worked together, but I wanna give Greg a second to chime in here. So Greg, you're the executive CTO at Cisco App Dynamics. How, how have you and the team, whether the last two and a half years? >>Well, you, you know, it's interesting, the, the pandemic really brought together an interesting conundrum, right? So on, on one hand, you had, you know, the, the, the consumers, the end users that became very reliant on digital services. They had a function in a way that was very performing, right? So, 84% of the respondents that we had come back through a report called the App Attention Index, came back and said that digital services were, were really instrumental for them to, to get back to some level of normalcy. But the interesting part that came about that is that out of those respondents, 60% of them blame the brand if the, if the application did not work the way they expected it. So they didn't really care about the, it's in the back end, right? So when you look at, yeah, you look at the shift in the IT department, the IT department had to go out and, and quickly innovate, quickly start to introduce new services, which ultimately brought together a, a sprawl in their technology stack. So when you're adding to it, you're not taking things away, you're continuously growing. So finding that that, that the problems or the, the root cause of an application issue became more difficult. So that's where, you know, from an app, Cisco AppDynamics perspective, you know, we're one of the leading observability and app application performance monitoring tools. So we help customers like Ro Caribbean to be able to zero in on root cause and ensure that their end users have that best experience. It's, >>It's, it's, I I'm smiling as someone who was a, a former waitress and I can remember the amount of times I was scolded for something that happened that was far out of my control and the complex layers of the kitchen. And I think that, that anyone who's, who's had a, a poor customer experience while interacting with a brand may or may not intentional, I think it's actually sometimes very unintentional to your point, get frustrated with said brand. I can imagine that is an experience and a priority that you have at Royal Caribbean. Alice, how, how has Full Stack Observability played a role in your, in your team's ability to, to serve the customers and your, and keep your community engaged during this, this very kind of wobbly time? >>Yeah, you know, we have, have really worked hard to improve and remove friction from our guest vacation. And we wanna keep them on vacation and having a great time. You know, we say we don't really sell a cruise. We sell an experience. So we use App AppDynamics to monitor those key applications that our guests are interacting with to ensure that they're having that experience that we expect, you know, we've learned that just because a system or a server says, Hey, I'm up 99% of the time, that doesn't mean that my guests are experiencing that same type of stability, you know? So once again, we really worked well with App Dynamics. They've partnered with us to ensure that, you know, our guests are getting that vacation experience they're looking for. >>Do you think, just a follow up there, do you think that you would have advanced in the ways that you have working with Cisco App Dynamics and across functions over the last few years without this crunch, was necessity the mother of invention for you to any degree? >>You know, I don't, I don't think that the Crunch brought it on cuz we, like I said, we started this journey back in 2017 and we're not unlike a lot of companies where we're on this maturity ride where we wanna go from being reactive, where our guests are telling us something is broken to being preventive. Definitely, you know, COVID played into this because I think we learned to do less, you know, more with less. So, you know, we, you know, it's very hard in the cruise industry. We did take a hit, but we were able to use the app dynamics tools to ensure that our systems were running with having less people also watching those systems. So less eyes on glass, more automation, >>And that's a more, with more, more stability, more credibility, and more transparency is definitely something that we're all looking forward. And, and it's nice to see that implemented, especially at scale when you're dealing with so many customers from all over the world trying to access your service and, and wanting that personalized experience. Greg, what does it feel like for you as a leader to hear someone like Alice say how powerful your tool has been in ensuring that customer experience? >>Yeah, that's, you know, it's absolutely fantastic and especially, you know, Alice is absolutely right. You know, the, the, the cruise industry was really, had a very unique challenge in front of them, and I, I really applaud the folks at Royal Caribbean for stepping up to make sure that when the pandemic eased, so to speak, that they, that the experience to the customer was actually even better, right? So when we were able to work and partner together to make sure that, you know, the, the, the user experience is topnotch, the availability is there, the, the, the, the resiliency of their platform is there. So by, by working with customers like Royal CRI and is really one of the, the, the shining stars that we can talk about that really help make a big difference in, you know, that post pandemic era to be able to really do what's right for the customer. >>How often are you engaging with customers like Alice as a team? How big is that feedback in your product roadmap? >>Oh, personally, I, I'm, I'm engaged with customers on a daily basis and I see it fr across the map from many different industries. And, you know, a lot of folks had different challenges, but the, the ultimate commonality that I've seen across, you know, multiple industries is that, you know, when you, when we're in that pandemic state, digital services were the only way that they, their customers were interacting with, with them. So, you know, when you, when you're looking at a, at a bank or you're looking at a, you know, different types of travel agencies and organizations that, you know, like rural Caribbean as well, that, that really had that opportunity to, to focus on what's the most valuable thing to them, which is user experience. It's a very, very common common trend that we saw. And, you know, you see an expedited path of, of, of digital transformation happen. And really that's where we partner with, you know, customers like Royal Caribbean and, and many others across different industries to make sure that that, that the, the business outcomes were being driven towards the, the proper direction. As well as that, you know, the, the user experience, and I don't think I can emphasize user experience as being so critically important anymore than I've already have, but it's really the, one of the most valuable currencies most organizations have. >>I, one of my favorite lines is, is community is your first defensible asset. And you know, I, you can, you can talk about user experience as much as you want on here. At the end of the day, if people aren't having a positive interaction with your brand or your product, it's probably not going to last super long unless it's legacy. And we won't have to go down that rabbit hole today, >>Especially if I can add there's a lot of competition there. Course, right? There's a lot of competition out there. So if your applications do not perform, or your digital services do not perform, the end user has the quick ability to just quickly delete and move on. And, and the same thing with, with what Alice sees in the, in the cruise industry, you know, you have an opportunity to rise to the top and I, I really applaud them for taking advantage of that, that opportunity. Community. >>Community. Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm here for both of you cheering each other on certainly the, the water level rises together. That's >>Right. Alice, >>What sort of, what sort of challenges are you taking on currently that you're able to disclose? What, what sort of leaps do you think, or doesn't have to be leaps, but what, what kind of experience are you hoping to continue to enhance for Royal Caribbean customers? >>So I think, you know, one of our big challenges that we've, you know, we've announced that we do have a relationship with starlink, so that's going to improve our satellite connectivity, and it really is a game changer for our industry. It's very exciting and, and, but it puts the, it puts the user back in the forefront once again. You know, right now, you know, with our current connectivity, it's all about managing that bandwidth. You know, we're hoping to go to that state where bandwidth isn't at a high cost, so now we're gonna be even able to watch our user interaction more from ship to shore, you know, and you're, and you're, we're maybe moving to that area where we're thinking cloud first from a shift. If you think about it, we've got 50 plus data centers floating around the world, so that connectivity is key. Now we're opening up that bandwidth now I need to see how that, how the transactions are performing as we come off ship. You know, with that, once again, that cloud first mentality, it's a super exciting time for us. And I really see, you know, AppD is gonna play a role in that. >>I, I I, I love that visual just for a second of 50 data centers with also surrounded by people having a very wonderful time on board. What a, what a nice spot. I, I can't say that every data center I've ever been to is, is glamorous, fun or sexy as being on a Royal Caribbean ship. However, I, I hope that we move perhaps in that direction. We were just at super computing a few weeks ago and it was great to see all the hardware there. So you never know. What role do you see yourself in the team and, and Cisco app Dynamics playing in that future for companies like Royal Caribbean, Greg? >>You know, it's really, it's really staying right lockstep with our customers as they move through that digital transformation efforts. The key piece is that we look at it from that full stack view. So we offer full stack observability, which, you know, if you look at the challenges that we want to go after is traditional IT departments were historically siloed pretty significantly between, you know, network and infrastructure security app dev. So ensuring that we can get our customers to, to be able to have that common view that shows what's the real important pieces across all domains. So when they start moving down the path of digital transformation, that's an opportunity to also revamp how their processes are that people interact and the technology that they use to be able to deliver the proper business outcomes. So we talk a lot with our customers around full stack observability, but the key part is business context. >>So if you have a big effort for digital transformation, you're starting to add new services to it, how do you know if it's actually impacting the business in a positive or negative way? So by us implementing the, the business context to ensure that you understand the investments being made that you can show to your business leaders is showing an uptick and the business outcomes you're, you're going after, it's really, really about a strong partnership with our customers, but also ensuring that their business is being positively impacted by our technology to be able to help them really align the teams and be able to have the right desired outcomes. >>I love that Greg and I love that customer first. That community first attitude, it's something that you both share. Final question for the two of you, and I'm gonna start with you, Alice, since I suspect you've probably been on more cruises than Greg and I combined, though I could be making a wild assumption. Where are you cruising to next? >>You know, I just got off the cruise, so next up I wanna revisit the Galapagos. I think the Galapagos is the best place to go, and if you haven't done it, that's absolutely where you should go. >>Oh, it's a beautiful trip. Greg, have you ever done the Galapagos? Is that gonna be your next Royal Caribbean cruise? >>I have never done the Galapagos, but I may just have made it to my list. >>Fantastic. Well, I second Alice's endorsement on that. I, I had the pleasure of going about a decade ago. Very magical place that teaches you a lot about nature, much like the two of you have taught us very extensively about full stack absorbability, how it applies to user experience, customer experience, and the ocean that I am currently staring at here in Pacifica, California. Alice, thank you so much for joining us from Miami Greg to you in Colorado. I hope that you both continue to work in harmony together and that we can all see each other on the friendly sees soon. Thank you all for tuning in to our AWS reinvent coverage. This is the cube. My name's Savannah Peterson, and we look forward to seeing you for our next segment.

>>Hi, everyone. Welcome to the cubes presentation of the AWS startup showcase the theme. This episode is data as code, and this is season two, episode two of the ongoing series covering exciting startups from the ecosystem in cloud and the future of data analytics. I'm your host, John furry. You're getting great featured panel here with AWS heroes, Lynn blankets, the CEO of Lindbergh Lega consulting, Peter Hanson's, founder of cloud Cedar and Alex debris, principal of debris advisory. Great to see all of you here and, uh, remotely and look forward to see you in person at the next re-invent or other event. >>Thanks for having us. >>So Lynn, you're doing a lot of work in healthcare, Peter you're in the middle of all the action as data as code Alex. You're in deep on the databases. We've got a good round up of, of topics here ranging from healthcare to getting under the hood on databases. So as we'll start with you, what are you working on right now? What trends do you see in the database space? >>Yeah, sure. So I do, uh, I do a lot of consulting work working with different people and, you know, often with, with dynamo DB or, or just general serverless technology type stuff. Um, if you want to talk about trends that I'm seeing right now, I would say trends you're seeing as a lot, just more serverless native databases or cloud native databases where you're seeing these cool databases come out that really take advantage of, uh, this new cloud environment, right? Where you have scalability, you have plasticity of the clouds. So you're not having, you know, instant space environments anymore. You're paying for capacity, you're paying for throughput. You're able to scale up and down. You're not managing individual instances. So a lot of cool stuff that we're seeing, you know, um, with this new generation of, of infrastructure and in particular database is taking advantage of this, this new cloud world >>And really lot deep into the database side in terms of like cloud native impact, diversity of database types, when to use certain databases that also a big deal. >>Yeah, absolutely. I like, I totally agree. I love seeing the different types of databases and, you know, AWS has this whole, uh, purpose-built database strategy. And I think that, that makes a lot of sense. Um, you know, I want to go too far with it. I would, I would more think about purpose-built categories and things like that, you know, specialize in an OLTB database within your, within your organization, whether that's dynamo DB or document DB or relational database Aurora or something like that. But then also choose some sort of analytics database, you know, if it's drew it or Redshift or Athena, and then, you know, if you have some specialized needs, you want to show some real time stuff to your users, check out rock site. If you want to, uh, you know, do some graph analytics, fraud detection, checkout tiger graph, a lot of cool stuff that we're seeing from the startup showcase here. >>Looking forward to unpacking that Lynn you've been in love now, a healthcare action with cloud ops, the pandemic pushes hard core on everybody. What are you working on? >>Yeah, it's all COVID data all the time. Uh, before the pandemic, I was supporting research groups for cancer genomics, which I still do, but, um, what's, uh, impactful is the explosive data volumes. You know, when you there's big data and there's genomic data, you know, I've worked with clients that have broken data centers, broken public cloud provider data centers because of the daily volume they're putting in. So there's this volume aspect. And then there's a collaboration, particularly around COVID research because of pandemic. And so you have this explosive volume, you have this, um, need for, uh, computational complexity. And that means cloud the challenge is it, you know, put the pedal to the metal. So you've got all these bioinformatics researchers that are used to single machine. Suddenly they have to deal with distributed compute. So it's a wild time to be in this space. >>What was the big change that you've seen with the, uh, the pandemic and in genomic cloud genomic specifically what's the big change has happened. >>The amount of data that is being put into the public cloud, um, previously people would have their data on their local, uh, capacity, and then they would publish their paper and the data may or may not become available for, uh, reproducing the research, uh, to accelerate for drug discovery and even variant identification. The data sets are being pushed to public cloud repositories, which is a whole new set of concerns. You have not only dealing with the volume and cost, but security, you know, there's federated security is non-trivial and not well understood by this domain. So there's so much work available here. >>Awesome. Peter, you're doing a lot with the data as a platform kind of view and platform engineering data as code is, is something that's being kicked around. What are you working on and how does platform engineering change as data becomes so much more prevalent in its value proposition? >>Yeah. So I'm the founder of cloud Cedar and, um, we sort of built this company out, this consultancy all around the challenges that a lot of companies have got with getting their data sorted, getting it organized, getting it ready for other use cases, such as analytics and machine learning, um, AI workloads and the like. So typically a platform engineering team will look after the organization of a company infrastructure, making sure that it's coherent across the company and a data platform, engineering teams doing something similar in that sense where they're, they're looking at making sure that, uh, data teams have a solid foundation to build upon, uh, that everything's quite predictable and what that enables is a faster velocity and the ability to use data as code as a way of specifying and onboarding data, building that, translating it, transforming it out into its specific domains and then on to data products. >>I have to ask you while you're here. Um, there's a big trend around data meshes right now. You're hearing, we've had a lot of stuff on the cube. Um, what are practical that people are using data mesh, first of all, is it relevant and how are people looking at this data mesh conversation? >>I think it becomes more and more relevant, uh, the bigger the organization that you're dealing with. So, you know, often times in the enterprise, you've got, uh, projects with timelines of five to 10 years often outlasting technology life cycles. The technology that you're building on is probably irrelevant by the time that you complete it. And what we're seeing is that data engineering teams and data teams more broadly, this organizational bottleneck and data mesh is all about, uh, breaking down that, um, bottleneck and decentralizing the work, shifting that work back onto, uh, development teams who oftentimes have got more of the context and a centralized data engineering team. And we're seeing a lot of, uh, Philocity increases as a result of that. >>It's interesting. There's so many different aspects of how data is changing the world. Lynn talks about the volume with the cloud and genomics. We're hearing data engineering at a platform level. You're talking about slicing and dicing and real-time information. You mentioned rock set, Alex. So I'd like to ask each of you to answer this next question, which is how has the team dynamics changed with data engineering because every single company's impacted. So if you're researchers, Lynn, you're pumping more data into the cloud, that's got a little bit of data engineering to it. Do they even understand that is that impacting them? So how has data changed the responsibilities or roles in this new emerging area of data engineering or whatever you want to call it? Lynn, we'll start with you. What do you, what do you see this impact? >>Well, you know, I mean, dev ops becomes data ops and ML ops and, uh, you know, this is a whole emergent area of work and it starts with an understanding of container technologies, which, you know, in different verticals like FinTech, that's a given, right, but in bioinformatics building an appropriately optimized Docker container is something I'm still working with customers now on because they have the concept of a Docker container is just a virtual machine, which obviously it isn't, or shouldn't be. So, um, you have, again, as I mentioned previously, this humongous skill gap, um, concepts like D, which are prevalent in ad tech FinTech, that's not available yet for most of my customers. So those are the things that I'm building. So the whole ops space is, um, this a wide open area. And really it's a question of practicality. Um, you know, I have, uh, a lot of experience with data lakes and, you know, containerizing and using the data lake platform. But a lot of my customers are going to move to like an interim pass based solutions. If they're using spark, for example, they might use to use a managed spark solution as an interim, um, step up to the cloud before they build their own containers. Because the amount of knowledge to do that effectively is non-trivial >>Peter, you mentioned data, you mentioned data lakes, onboarding data into lake house architectures, for instance, something that you're familiar with. Um, this is not obvious to some verticals obvious to others. What do you see this data engineering impact from a personnel standpoint? And then ultimately how things get built, >>You know, are you directing that to me, >>Peter? >>Yeah. So I think, um, first and foremost, you know, the workload that data engineering teams are dealing with is ever increasing. Usually there's a 10 X ratio of, um, software engineers to data engineers within a business and usually double the amount of analysts to data engineers again. And so they're, they're fighting it ever increasing backload. And, uh, so they're fighting an ever increasing backlog of, of, uh, tasks to do and tickets to, to, to churn through. And so what we're seeing is that data engineering teams are becoming data platform engineering teams where they're building capability instead of constantly hamster wheels spinning if you will. And so with that in mind, with onboarding data into, uh, a Lakehouse architecture or a data lake where data engineering teams, uh, uh, getting wins is developing a very good baseline of structure where they're getting the categorization, the data tagging, whether this data is of a particular domain, does it contain some, um, PII data, for instance, uh, and, and, and, and then the security aspects, and also, you know, the mechanisms on which to do the data transformations, >>Alex, on the database side, those are known personas in an enterprise, a them, the database team, but now the scale is so big. Um, and there's so much going on in databases. How does the data engineering impact organizations from your standpoint? >>Yeah, absolutely. I think definitely, you know, gone are the days where you have a single relational database that is serving operational queries for your users, and you can also serve analytics queries, you know, for your internal teams. It's, it's now split up into those purpose-built databases, like we've said. Uh, but now you've got two different teams managing it and they're, they're designing their data model for different things. You know? So L LLTP might have a more de-normalized model, something that works for very fast operations and it's optimized for that, but now you need to suck that data out and get it elsewhere so that your, your PM or your business analyst, or whoever can crunch through some of that. And, you know, now it needs to be in a more normalized format. How do you sort of bridge that gap? That's a tough one. I think you need to, you know, build empathy on each side of, of what each side is doing and, and build the tools to say, Hey, this is going to help you, uh, you know, LLTP team, if we know what, what users are actually doing, and, and if you can get us into the right format there, so that then I can, you know, we can analyze it, um, on the backend. >>So I think, I think building empathy across those teams is helpful. >>When I left to come back to, you mentioned a health and informatics is coming back. Um, but it's interesting, you know, I look at a database world and you look at the solutions that are out there. A lot of companies that build data solutions don't have a data problem. They've never, they're not swimming in a lot of data, but then you look at like the field that you're working in right now with the genomics and health and, and quantum, they're always, they're dealing with data all the time. So you have people who deal with a lot of data all the time are breaking through New Zealand. People who are don't have that experience are now becoming data full, right? So people are now either it's a first time problem, or they've always been swimming in a ton of data. So it's more of what's the new playbook. And then, wow, I've never had to deal with a lot of data before. What's your take? >>It's interesting. Cause they know, uh, bioinformatics hires, um, uh, grad students. So grad students, you know, use their, our scripts with their file on their laptop. And so, um, to get those folks to understand distributed container-based computing is like I said, a not non-trivial problem. What's been really interesting with the money pouring in to COVID research is when I first started, some of the workflows would take, you know, literally 500 hours and that was just okay. And coming out of FinTech, I was, uh, I could, I was blown away like FinTech is like, could that please take a millisecond rather than a second? Right. And so what has now happened, which makes it, you know, like I said, even more fun to work in this domain is, uh, the research dollars have really gone up because of the pandemic. And so there are, there are, there's this blending of people like me with more of a big data background coming into bioinformatics and working side by side. >>So it's this interesting sort of translation because you have the whole taxonomy of bioinformatics with genomics and sequencers and all the weird file types that you get. And then you have the whole taxonomy of dev ops data ops, you know, containers and Kubernetes and all that. And trying to get that into pipelines that can actually, you know, be efficient, given the constraints. Of course, we, on the tech side, we always want to make it super optimized. I had a customer that we got it down from 500 hours to minutes, but they wanted to stay with the past solution because it was easier for them to go from 500 hours to five hours was good enough, but you know, the techies want to get it down to five minutes. >>This is, this is, we've seen this movie before dev ops, um, edge and op operations, you know, IOT, world scenes, the convergence of cultures. Now you have data and then old, old school operations kind of coming up. So this kind of supports the thesis. That data as code is the next infrastructure as code. What do you guys, what's the reaction there for you guys? What do you think about that? What does data's code mean? If infrastructure's code was cloud and dev ops, what is data as code? What does that mean? >>I could take it if you like. I think, um, data teams, organizations, um, have been long been this bottleneck within the organization and there's like this dark matter of untapped energy and potential waiting to be unleashed a data with the advent of open source projects like DBT, um, have been slowly sort of embracing software development, lifecycle practices. And this is really sort of seeing a, a big steep increase in, um, in their velocity. And, and this is only going to increase and improve as we're seeing data teams, um, embrace starter as code. I think it's, uh, the future is bright for data. So I'm very excited. >>Lynn Peter reaction. I mean, agility data is code is developer concept CICB pipeline. You mentioned it new operational workflows coming into traditional operations reaction. >>Yeah. I mean, I think Peter's right on there. I'd say, you know, some of those tools we're seeing come in from, from software, like, like DBT, basically giving you that infrastructure as code, but applied to that data realm. Also there have been a few, like get for data type things, pack a derm, I believe is one and a few other ones where you bring that in and you also see a lot of immutability concepts flowing into the data realm. So I think just seeing some of those software engineering concepts come over to the data world has, has been pretty interesting >>What we'll literally just versioning datasets and the identification of what's in a data set. What's not in a data set. Some of this is around ethical AI as well, um, is a whole, uh, area that has come out of research groups. Um, mostly AI research groups, but is being applied to medical data and needs to be obviously, um, so this, this, this, um, metadata and versioning around data sets is really, I think, a very of the moment area. >>Yeah, I think we, we, you guys are bringing up a really good kind of direction that's happening in data. And that is something that you're seeing on the software side, open source and now dev ops. And now going to data is that the supply chain challenges of we've been talking about it here on the cube and this, this, um, this episode is, you know, we've seen Ukraine war, but some open source, you know, malware hitting datasets is data secure. What is that going to look like? So you starting to get into this what's the supply chain, is it verified data sets if data sets have to be managed a whole nother level of data supply chain comes up, what do you guys think about that? >>I'll jump in. Oh, sorry. I'll jump in again. I think that, you know, there's, there's, um, some, some of the compliance requirements, um, around financial data are going to be applied to other types of data, probably health data. So immutability reproducibility, um, that is, uh, legally required. Um, also some of the privacy requirements that originated in Europe with GDPR are going to be replicated as more and more, um, types of data. And again, I'm always going to speak for health, but there's other types as well coming out of personal devices and that kind of stuff. So I think, you know, this idea of data as code is it's, it goes down to versioning and controlling and, um, that's, uh, that's sort of a real succinct way to say it that we didn't used to think about that. We just put it in our, you know, relational database and we were good to go, but, um, versioning and controlling in the global ecosystem is kind of, uh, where I'm focusing my efforts. >>It brings up a good question. If databases, if data is going to be part of the development process has to be addressable, which means horizontally scalable. That means it has to be accessible and open. How do you make that work and not foreclose it with a lot of restrictions? >>I think the use of data catalogs and appropriate tagging and categorization, you know, I think, you know, everyone's heard of the term data swamp, and I think that just came about because that everyone saw like, oh, wow, S3, you know, infinite storage. We just, you know, throw whatever in there for as long as we want. And I think at times, you know, the proliferation of S3 buckets, um, and the like, you know, we've just seen, uh, perhaps security, not maintained as well as it could have been. And I think that's kind of where data platform engineering teams have really sort of, uh, come into the, for, you know, creating a governance set of buckets like formation on top. But I think that's kind of where we need to see a lot more work with appropriate tags and also the automatic publishing of metadata into data catalogs so that, um, folks can easily search and address particular data sets and also control the access. You know, for instance, you've got some PII data, perhaps really only your marketing folks should be looking at email addresses and the like not perhaps your finance folks. So I think, you know, there's, there's a lot to be leveraged there in formation and other solutions, >>Alex, let's back up and talk about what's in it for the customer, right. Let's zoom back and saying reality is I just got to get my data to make sure it's secure always on and not going to be hackable. And I just got to get my data available on river performance. So then, then I got to start thinking about, okay, how do I intersect it? So what should teams be thinking about right now as I look up all their data options or databases across their enterprise? >>Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a good question. I just, you know, I think Peter made some good points there and you can think of history as sort of ebbing and flowing between centralization and decentralization a lot of times. And you know, when storage was expensive, data was going to be sort of centralized and Maine maintained, sort of a, you know, by the, uh, the people that are in charge of it. But then when, when S3 comes along, it really decreases storage. Now we can do a lot more experiments on it. We can store a lot more of our data, keep it around and do different things on it. You know, now we've got regulations again, we were, we gotta, we gotta be more realistic about, about keeping that data secure and make sure we're, we're doing the right things with it. So it's, we're gonna probably go through a period of, of centralization as we work out some of this tooling around, you know, tagging and, and ethical AI that, that both Peter. And when we're talking about here and maybe get us into that, that next wearable world of de-centralization again. But I, I think that ebb and flow is going to be natural in response to, you know, the problems of the, the other extreme, >>Where are we in the market right now from progress standpoint, because data lakes don't want to be data swamps. You seeing lake formation as a data architecture, as an example, where are we with customers? What are they doing right now? Where would you put them in the progress bar of, of evolution towards the Nirvana of having this data sovereignty? And this data is code environment. Are they just now in the data lake store, everything real-time and historical? >>Well, I can jump in there. Um, SQL on files is the, is the driver. And so we know when Amazon got Athena, um, that really drove a lot of the customers to really realistically look at data lake technologies, but data warehouses are not going away. And the integration between the two is not seamless. No, we, we are partners with AWS, but we don't work for them. So we can tell you the truth here. Um, there's, there's work to it, but it really, for my customers, it really upped the ante around data lake, uh, because Athena and technologies like that, the serverless, um, SQL queries or the familiar quarry, um, uh, libraries really drove a movement away from either OLTB or OLAP, more expensive, more cumbersome structures, >>But they still need that. Oh, LTP, like if they have high latency issues, they want to be low latency. Can they have the best of both worlds? That's the question. >>I mean, I w I would say we're getting, you know, we're getting closer. We're always going to be, uh, you know, that technology is going to be moving forward, and then we'll just move the goalpost again, in terms of, of what we're asking from it. But I think, you know, the technology that's getting out there, you can get, get really well. And then, you know, just what I work in the dynamo DB world. So you can get really great low latency. So, you know, single digit millisecond LLTP response times on that. I think some of the analytics stuff has been a problem with that. And there, there are different solutions out there to where you can export dynamo to S3, and then you can be doing SQL on your FA your files with Athena Lakeland's talking about, or now you see, you know, rock set of partner here that that'll just ingest your dynamo, DB data, you know, make all those changes. So if you're doing a lot of, uh, changes to your data and dynamo is going to reflect in Roxanna, and then you can do analytics queries, you can do complex filters, different things like that. So, you know, I, I think we continue to push the envelope and then we moved the goalpost again. But, um, you know, I think we're in a, a lot better place than we were a few years ago, for sure. >>Where do you guys see this going relative to the next level? If data as code becomes that next agile, um, software defined environment with open source? Well, all of these new tools with serverless things happening with data lakes are built in with nice architectures with data warehouses, where does it go next? What happens next? If this becomes an agile environment, what's the impact? >>Well, I don't want to be so dominant, but I have, I feel strongly, so I'm going to jump in here. So, so I, um, I feel like, you know, now for my, my, my most computationally intensive workloads, I'm using GPS, I'm bursting to GPU for TensorFlow neural networks. So I've been doing quite a bit of exploration around Amazon bracket for QPS and it's early. Um, and it's specialty. It's not, you know, for everybody. And the learning curve again is pretty daunting, but, um, there are some use cases out there. I mean, I got ahold of a paper where some people did some, um, it was a Q CNN, um, quantum convolutional neural network for lung cancer images, um, from COVID patients and the, the, uh, the QP Hugh, um, algorithm pipeline performed more accurately and faster. So I think, um, bursting to quantum is something to pay attention to. >>Awesome. Peter, what's your take on what's next? >>Well, I think there's still, um, that, that was absolutely fascinating from Lynn, but I think also there's, there's, uh, you know, some more sort of low-level, uh, low-hanging fruit available in, in the data stack. I think there's a lot of, there's still a lot of challenges around the transformation there, getting our data from sort of raw landed data into business domains, and that sort of talks to a lot of what data mesh is all about. I think if we can somehow make that a little more frictionless, because that that's really where the like labor intensive work is. That's, that's kinda dominating, uh, data engineering teams and where we're sort of trying to push that, that workload back onto, um, you know, software engineering teams. >>Alice will give you the final word. What's the impact. What's the next step? What's it look like in the future? >>Yeah, for sure. I mean, I've never had the, uh, breaking a data center problem that wind's had, or the bursting the quantum problem, for sure. But, you know, if you're in that, you know, the pool I swim and of terabytes of data and below and things like that, I think it's a good time. It just like we saw, you know, like we were talking about dev ops and, and pushing, uh, you know, allowing software engineers to handle more of, of the operation stuff. I think the same thing with data can happen where, you know, software engineering teams can handle not just their code, not just, you know, deploying and operating it, but also thinking about their data around the code. And that doesn't mean you won't have people assist you within your organization. You won't have some specialists in there, but I think pushing more stuff, even onto the individual development teams where they have ownership of that. And they're thinking about it through all this different life cycle. I mean, I'm pretty bullish on that. And I think that's an exciting development >>Was that shift, what left with left is security. What does that mean to >>Shipped so much stuff left, but now, you know, the things that were at the end are back at the end again, but, uh, you know, at least we think we can think about that stuff early in the process, which is good, >>Great conversation, very provocative, very realistic and great impact on the future data as code is real, the developers I do believe will have a great operational role and the data stack concept and impacting things like quantum, it's all kind of lining up nicely. Um, and it's a great opportunity to be in this field from a science and policy standpoint. Um, data engineering is legit. It's going to continue to grow and thanks for unpacking that here on the queue. Appreciate it. Okay. Great panel D AWS heroes. They work with AWS and the ecosystem independently out there. They're in the trenches doing the front lines, cracking the code here with data as code season two, episode two of the ongoing series of the 80, but startups I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching.

>>Welcome to the cubes, continuing coverage of AWS reinvent 2021 find Lisa Martin and we are running one of the industry's most important and largest hybrid tech events with AWS in this ecosystem partners. This year, we have two live sets, two remote sites over 100 guests talking about the next decade in cloud innovation. And we're excited to be joined by Patrick Jeanne, the CTO of OutSystems Patrick. Welcome to the program. >>Thank you. I appreciate being one of those 100 guests, >>One of the 100, one of the elite, 100, we'll say it like that. Right? So, so OutSystems has some revolutionary news. You guys are saying, you know, what developer experience needs to change? Tell us more. >>It does. I mean, it needs to change. And I've been in the industry developing applications for too many years dimensions basically since I was 12 years old writing software and, you know, going over that time and thinking about it, doing the traditional software development route. So many applications that take too long was, you know, costly to build so much risk involved in it. Eventually it didn't meet all the requirements. And if you look at the investment we make in software, which is important, I mean, software is a, is a unique differentiator for, for businesses. That investment has such a high risk and a high cost, and that needs to change and it needs to change just because of the complexity that is in that process inherent in it that's. And that is what we are doing and OutSystems is tackling that problem. And, um, from a business standpoint, it must change. >>It must change that that is strong words there. So talk to me about what you're announcing, what, what were the gaps in the market customer feedback? Was it, or were there any catalysts from the pandemic going we've got to change this developer experience and this is the time >>For sure. I mean, if you think about from the pandemic and I mean, we were on a journey for digital transformation. We've been on this journey for a number of years and it really accelerated that the experiences that we have with each other, with you and me, we're not the same studio today. I mean, there's there reasons that we have used this experience remote, we have a technology that can do it, the pandemic accelerated that. And so, so much of the experiences we have are digital experiences. And if you think about it, there's a device in between us. There's going to be a device in between all the people viewing what we're looking at, that experience that, uh, that they will have with us will be basically surfaced through an application on that device. And the pandemic has really accelerated that. And that's an area that we play in, obviously for what's considered low code application development. >>And if you just think about application development in general, that's what powers all of these experiences. And going back to that, you know, statement about that, it needs to change if we need these experiences to be diverse, if we need these experiences to be meaningful, if we need them to make sure that when people engage, as far as what that device is, something that brings, you know, delight and pleasure to them, we need developers across the board. Investing in that today, there is a very constrained market for professional developers, but because of the inherent complexity in software development. And so if you think about how that's almost almost you're limiting access to the people who can create those experiences, that's not a good situation. There's about 25 million developers in the world that would consider themselves developers today, 7, 8, 9, 10 billion devices out there. Think of that disparity between those two numbers. >>And so we need a larger number of people to actually develop applications. So that experience can be much more diverse. We need to expose development to many more people. That is the problem today with software development is that it is complex. It is too specialized. It's too inherit as far as with failure when you get it together. And so either you shy away from that as an organization or as an individual to do development, or you go on these very long development as far as cycles to actually create these applications. What we do is we take the approach of let's make it very simple to get into, you know, some terms and call it citizen developer, low code, basically all they're saying is let's, let's reduce the risk of development. Let's go into a process where we make it accessible to more and more people. You can go through and develop applications with the lower risk. You can build change into that process and you can get value into end users as rapidly as possible. So that's, that is the value proposition. That is what needs to change >>Strong value proposition well said, Patrick, talking about reducing the complexity, uh, the risk as well. So, so go ahead and crack crack open what you guys are actually announcing today. >>Yeah, for sure. So with, we we've been doing this for many years, we have, um, software development, we have 14 million plus as far as end-users using applications that have been developed with the Al systems platform, what we're announcing is taking some of the great benefits that we have to what you'd consider as the first part of that low code process, where you have a, you have a developer that has an idea, and there's a canvas in front of you. You know, you're, you're an artist, right? But again, this is what you are as a developer. And so you go in and you create that application. We've been doing this for many years and it works really well. But thing that we're improving upon now is the ability to do that and scale that out to millions of end-users 10 millions of end-users. So if you think about that inherent speed of developing an application, using a platform like OutSystems, we're taking that same concept and rolling that into an internet scale application, hosting architecture. >>So any developer that uses our systems, basically like it would be comparable to a traditional development team that has application architects, cloud architects, security, engineers, database engineers, a whole team of very smart individuals that generally the, the biggest technology companies in the world can put together. Most companies can't do that. You don't have access to that type of that type of skillset. And so we're providing that with project Neo, which is what we're announcing today in our, um, at our user conference and customer conference, is this brand new as far as platform that allows you to build these applications at scale. And this is initially built on AWS using all the great AWS technologies. If you look at what AWS has done and provided to developers today, it's amazing. It is absolutely amazing. The amount of technologies that you can leverage. It's also daunting because as a traditional developer, you have to go in and choose, you know, what do you do? It's like, there's just massive cognitive load as far as upfront when you're going to design and application and what type of messaging what's at the data store. Well, how do I host my application? What type of network, you know, as far as security do I use, we're taking all that heavy lifting, all that undifferentiated, heavy lifting off of the developers, putting it into the project, Neo platform, allowing a single developer or a small group of developers to actually leverage that best in class architecture on AWS today. >>So when you're talking to developers, what are some of the things that you described as the unique differentiators of project Neo? It sounds like this was really apt and apt time for change, but when you're talking to those folks, what do you say? You know, 1, 2, 3, these are the things that make project Neo unique. >>Yeah. So you're the first is don't worry about the application architecture. Like I mentioned, don't when you go in that, the idea, the concept of that application and what it means to, to deliver some value, whether it's into a business or a hobby or whatever. I mean, however, you're developing application, you're doing it for a reason. You want that value to come out as quickly as possible. You want that experience. And so that first thing is you don't have to worry about the architecture anymore. So in the past, you know, you'd have to think about if it's a very large application, it's millions and millions of end-users. How do you structure that? How do you put it together? That concern is removed from you in that process? The other thing is we solve the problem of software disintegration. So with traditional development, when you develop an application and you get it into the hands of end, users get immediately starts to disintegrate. >>So there will be bugs that will appear. There will be, as far as, um, security flaws that will come up services that you use will become deprecated. We'll swap out cloud services, you know, AWS or Azure or Google, we'll swap out cloud services with different services behind the scenes version that we new versions of those that is software disintegration. As soon as you develop software today and all of these beautiful cloud services that you use and components, they often something will become outdated almost by the time you release it. A lot of times with software development projects, it literally is you start with some version or some component before you can get that out in a traditional mode. Something becomes outdated. We solve that issue. What I like to call software disintegration, we, as far as our systems, ensure we invest in that platform. And so when we need to change out those components, so services, those versions fix is for a security flaws, fixed bugs. >>We do that and it seamless. And so your application, you do not have to rewrite your application. You do not have to go through that process as a tradition, as a developer on our systems like you would, as your traditional developer, we solve that software disintegration issue. So it is it's, it's very empowering to developers to not have to worry about that. There are many, you look at the numbers today about how much is invested in innovation versus maintenance. You know, a lot of companies start out at 70% innovation, 30% as far as maintenance. And then over time that flips and you'll get to 30% of your time spent on innovations development, 70% maintenance, that burden we removed that burden. >>Those are some really powerful statements protect that you mean, I really liked the way that you described software disintegration. I've actually never heard that term before. And it kind of reminded me of, you know, when you buy a brand new car, you drive it off. The lot the value goes down right away, then before you even get things out. And on the consumer side, we know that as soon as we buy the newest iPhone, the next one's going to be out, or there's some part of it, that's going to be outdated in terms of technical debt. I was reading a stat that technical debt is expected to reach and costs businesses 5 trillion us dollars over the next 10 years. How does OutSystems helps customers address the challenges with technical debt and even reduce it? >>Yeah. If you think about the guy, the truest sense of technical debt, it's a, it's a decision that you make in the development process to basically, you know, load up the future with some work that you don't want to do right now. And so we're solving that issue where number one, we, you don't even have to make that decision. So you can go back to that concept of removing that cognitive load of, do I get the software out right now or do I get it out in the right way? And that's really what technical debt technical debt is saying. I need to get it out now. And there are some things I want to do that it'd be better if I did them now, but I'm going to go ahead and push that out into the future. You don't have to do that today with us. >>And so what happens with our systems? We invest in that platform, and this is hard. I mean, this is not an easy thing to do. This is why we have some of the best and brightest engineers focusing on this process at the heart of this, not to get too technical, but the heart of this is what we call the true change engine. But then, um, within our platform, we go through and we look at all of the changes that you need to make. So if you think of that concept of technical debt of like, oh, I want to get this into the hands of man users, but I don't want to invest in the time to do something right. It's always done right. As far as with the OutSystems platform. So we take that, we look at the intent of your change. So it's like a, it's like a process where you tell us the intent. >>When you, as a application developer, you're designing an application, you tell us the intent of the application is to look and feel. It could be some business processes can be some integrations. We determine what's the best way to do that. And then once again, from a software disintegration standpoint, we continue to invest in all the right ways to do that the best way possible. And so, I mean, we have customers that have written applications. That's 10, 15 years ago, they're still using our platform with those same applications they've added to them, but they actually have not rewritten those applications. And so if you think about the normal traditional development process, the technical debt incurred over that type of lifetime would be enormous with us. There's no technical debt. They're still using the same application. They have simply added capabilities to it. We invest in that platform. So they don't have to >>So big business outcomes there, obviously from a developer productivity perspective, but from the company wide perspective, the ability to eliminate technical debt, some significant opportunities there. Talk to me about the existing OutSystems customers. When are they going to be able to take advantage of this? What is the migration or upgrade path that they can take? >>Yeah. And so it's, it was very important to me and, and, uh, and the team, as far as our systems, to be able to integrate, to innovate as far as for customers, without disrupting customers. And we've probably all been through this path of great new technology is awesome. But then to actually utilize that technology when you're a current customer, it creates pain. And so we've invested heavily in making sure that the process is pain-free so you can use project Niamh. So we are announcing it as it was in public preview, as far as now, and then we will release it from GA as far as in the first quarter of next year. So over this timeframe, you'll be able to get in and try it out and all that continue to use your current version, which is OutSystems 11. So what we, what we affectionately call it 11, as far as Alice systems, Al systems, 11 version, and continued to use, and you can continue to use that today. >>Side-by-side and coexistence with the project, Neo and project Neo is a code name. So we will, we will have an official product name is for as at launch, but it's our it's. Our affectionate is kind of a unofficial mascot as Neo. So we call it project Neo bit of a fun thing, and you can use it side by side. And then in the future, you'll be able to migrate applications over, or you can just continue to coexist. I mean, we see a very long lifetime for OutSystems 11, it's a different platform, different technology behind the scenes project, Neos, Kubernetes base, Lennox containers. Based once again on the bill, we went in with the, just looked at it and said, rearchitect re-imagined, how would you do this? If you had the best and brightest, as far as engineers, architects, um, you know, we have, which we do, you know, very smart in those people. >>And we did that. And so we did that for our customers. And so Neo is that how systems 11 still a great choice. If you have applications on it, you can use it. And we have, we anticipate that customers will actually side by side, develop on both in which we have some customers in preview today. And that's the process that they have. They will develop on 11, they will develop on the Neo and they will continue to do that. And there's no, we, we are dedicated to making sure that there's no disruption and no pain in that process. And then when customers are ready to migrate over, if that's what they choose, we'll help them migrate over. >>You make it sound easy. And I was wondering if project Neo had anything to do with the new matrix movie, I just saw the trailer for it the other day. >>It was a happy coincidence. It is not easy. Let me, let me be clear. It is something we have been working on for three years and really this last year really kicked into high gear. And, um, you know, a lot of behind the scenes work, obviously for us, but once again, that's our value proposition. It's we do the hard work. So developers and customers don't have to do that hard work, uh, but no relations in the L I love, I do love the matrix movies. So it's a, it's a nice coincidence. >>It is a nice coincidence. Last question, Patrick, for you, you know, as we wrap up the calendar year 2021, we head into 20, 22. I think we're all very hopeful that 2022 will be a better year than the last two. What are some of the things that you see as absolutely critical for enterprises? What are they most concerned about right now? >>Yeah, I think it's look, I mean, it's, obviously it has been a crazy couple of years. And, um, and if you think about what enterprises want, I mean, they want to provide, uh, a great experiences for their customers, a great experience for their employees. Once again, digital transformation, we're where you don't even kind of talk about digital transformation more because we're in it. And I think that customers need to make sure that the experiences they provide these digital experiences are the best possible experiences. And these are differentiators. These are differentiators for employees is, are differentiators for customers. I believe that software is one of the big differentiators for businesses today and going forward, and that will continue to be so we're where businesses may be invested in supply chains and invested in certain types of technologies. Business will continue to invest in software because software is that differentiator. >>And if you look at where we fit, you can go, you can go buy, you know, some great satisfied where my software as a service off the shelf in the end, you're just like every other business you bought the same thing that everybody else has bought. You can go the traditional development route, where you invest a bunch of money. It's a high risk, takes a long time. And once again, you may not get what you want. We believe what is most important to businesses. Get that unique software that fits like a glove that is great for employees is great for their customers. And it is a unique differentiator for them. And I really see that in 2022, that's going to be big and, and going forward. They're the legs for that type of investment that companies make and their return on that is huge. >>I agree with you on that in terms of software as a differentiator. No, we're seeing every company become a software company in every industry these days to be first to survive in the last 20 months and now to be competitive, it's really kind of a must have. So Patrick, thank you for joining me on the program, talking about project Neo GA in quarter of calendar year 22 exciting stuff. We appreciate your feedback and your insights and congratulations on project Neil. Thanks, Lisa. Appreciate it for Patrick Jean I'm Lisa Martin, and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of re-invent 2021.

(upbeat music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of Postgres Vision 2021 brought to you by EDB. >> Well, good day, everybody. John Walls here on theCUBE. We continue our coverage here at Postgres Vision in 2021. Talking today with Andy Harris, who is the Chief Technology Officer at Osirium, a leader in the Privileged Access Management Space, and Andy, good day to you. Thanks for joining us here on theCUBE. >> Good morning to you and good afternoon, yes. >> That's right. Joining us from overseas over in England, we're on this side of the big pond, but nonetheless, we're joined by the power of Zoom. So again, thanks for the time. Andy, for those who aren't familiar who are watching about Osirium, share a little bit about your various service levels of what you provide, the kind of solutions you provide, and how you've achieved a great success in this space. >> Okay. I know these things, mine will be boring. So I'll just put a little slide up now, which is the minimum I think I can get away with which is that we're all about managing privilege. So that's privileged at the endpoint, Privileged Access Management, and Privileged Process Automation. So wherever a CIS admin has to do something on a machine that needs privilege, we like to be involved. Obviously, we like to be able to delegate all the way down to the business functions with Privileged Process Automation and with the EDB or the BDR part of that functionality in EDB that really fits in to our Privileged Access Management. So what I'll do just to take you away from our product. So I'll just quickly show you a slide of the architecture, which is as simple as we have these nodes. If you like the running ADB BDR and they can perform log-ins to a target device using privileged credentials, which we control when we might be really long up to about 128 characters. >> So Andy, if you would, I think you had put together a little show and tell you a demonstration for how when these systems are perhaps under siege if you will. That there are ways in which obviously you've developed to counter this and to be able to continue secure communications, which in the privilege assets world as you know is paramount. >> Yes, indeed. So I'll show you another slide, which gives you a kind of a overview of everything that's going on and you're going to see a little demonstration of two nodes here that has the BDL technology on and they can make these logins, and we have these characters, Bob and Allison. I've just noticed how it marks in department turn Alice to Allison. they should really be Alice because you get Bob, Alice, Carol, Dave, which are the standard encryption users. And what we're going to do is we're going to demonstrate that you can have breaks in the network. So I'm just sharing the network breaks slide. I'm showing the second network break slide. And then we have this function that we've built which we're going to demonstrate for you today, which is called evil beatings. And what it does is whilst there is a politician in the network, we are going to refresh many thousands of times the credentials on the target device. And then we're going to heal the break in the network and then prove that everything is still working. So right now, I'm going to zoom over to my live connection, terminal connections to the machine. And I'm going to run this command here, which is Python EV3. And I'm going to put a hundred cycles in it which is going to do around about 10,000 password refreshes. Okay. And I'm then going to go over to Chrome, and I should have a system here waiting for me. And in this system, you'll see that I've got the device demo and I've got this come online, SSH. And if I click on this I've got a live connection to this machine. Even whilst I have a huge number of queued up and I'll just show you the queued out connections through the admin interface. The system is working extremely hard at the moment. And in fact, if I show you this slide here, you can see that I have all of these queued credential resets and that is giving our system an awful lot of grief. Yeah. I can go back to the device connection and it is all here still top. Why not? And as you can see, it is all working perfectly. And if I was a user of EDB, I think this has to be one of the demonstrations I'd be interested in because it's one of the first things that we did when we dropped that functionality into our products. We wanted to know how well it would work under extreme conditions because you don't think of extreme conditions as normal working, but whenever you have 10 nodes in different countries, there will always be a network break somewhere and someone will always need to be refreshing passwords a ridiculous rates of knots. So Andy let's talk about this kind of the notion that you're providing here, this about accountability and visibility, audit-ability, all these insights that you're providing through this kind of demonstration you've given us how critical is that today, especially when we know there are so many possible intrusions and so many opportunities with legacy systems and new apps and all of this. I mean talking about those three pillars, if you will, the importance of that and what we just saw in terms of providing that peace of mind that everybody wants in their system. >> That's a cracking question. I'm going to enjoy that question. Legacy systems, that's a really good question. If you, we have NHS, which is our national health service and we have hospitals and you have hospitals every country has hospitals. And the equipment that they use like the MRI scanners, the electro-microscope, some of the blood analysis machines, the systems in those costs multiple Gillions of dollars or should use dollars euros, dollars, pounds and the operating systems running those systems, the lifetime of that piece of equipment is much much longer than the lifetime of an operating system. So we glibly throw around this idea of legacy systems and to a hospital that's a system that's a mere five years old and has got to be delivering for another 15 years. But in reality, all of this stuff gets, acquires vulnerabilities because our adversaries the people that want to do organizations bad things ransomware and all the rest of it they are spending all that time learning about the vulnerabilities of old systems. So the beauty of what we do is being able to take those old legacy systems and put a zero trust safety shell around them, and then use extremely long credentials which can't be cracked. And then we make sure that those credentials don't go anywhere near any workstations. But what they do do, is they're inside that ADB database encrypted with a master encryption key, and they make that jump just inside the zero trust boundary so that Bob and Alice outside can get administration connections inside for them to work. So what we're doing is providing safety for those legacy systems. We are also providing an environment for old apps to run in as well. So we have something called a map server which I didn't think you'd asked us that question. I'd have to find you some slides or presentations, which we want to do. We have a map server, which is effectively a very protected window server, and you can put your old applications on them and you can let them age gracefully and carry on running. Dot net 3.5 and all of those old things. And we can map your connection into the older application and then map those connections out. But in terms of the other aspects of it is the hospital stay open 24 hours a day banks run 24 hours a day and they need to be managed from anywhere. We're in a global pandemic, people are working from home. That means that people are working from laptops and all sorts of things that haven't been provisioned by centrality and could all have all sorts of threats and problems to them. And being able to access any time is really important. And because we are changing the credentials on these machines on a regular basis, you cannot lose one. It's absolutely critical. You cannot go around losing Windows active directory domain credentials it just can't be done. And if you have a situation where you've just updated a password and you've had a failure one of those 10 nodes has the correct set of credentials. And when the system heals, you have to work out which one of the 10 it is and the one that did it last must be the one that updates all the other 10 nodes. And I think the important thing is as Osirium we have the responsibility for doing the updates and we have the responsibility for tracking all those things. But we hand the responsibility of making sure that all the other 10 nodes are up to date which just drop it into bi-directional replication and it just happens. And you've seen it happen. I mean, might be just for the fun of it, We'll go back to that demonstration Chrome, and you can see we're still connected to that machine. That's all still running fine but we could go off to our management thing, refresh it and you see that everything there is successful. I can go to a second machine and I can make a second connection to that device. Yet, in the meantime that password has been changed, Oh, I mean, I wouldn't like to tell you how many times it's been changed. I need to be on a slightly different device. I was going to do a reveal password for you, I'll make another connection but the passwords will be typically, do a top on that just to create some more load. But the passwords will typically be... I'll come back to me. They'll typically be 128 characters long. >> Andy, if I could, I mean, 'cause I think you're really showing this very complex set of challenges that you have these days, right? In terms of providing access to multiple devices across, in multiple networking challenges, when you talk to your prospective clients about the kind of how this security perimeters changed, it's very different now than it was four or five years ago. What are the key points that you want them to take away from your discussion about how they have to think about security and access especially in this day and age when we've even seen here in the States. Some very serious intrusions that I think certainly get everybody's attention. >> That's a great question again. They're all... The way that I would answer that question would definitely depend on the continent that I was talking to. But my favorite answer will be a European answer, so I'll give you a European answer. One of the things that you're doing when you come along and provide Privileged Access Management to a traditional IT team, is your taking away the sysadmins right now, before privilege access, they will know the passwords. They will be keeping the passwords in a password vault or something like this. So they own the passwords, they own the credentials. And when you come along with a product like privilege access management you're taking over management of those credentials and you're protecting those systems from a whole wide range of threats. And one of those threats is from the system administrators themselves. And they understand that. So what I would say, it's an interesting question. 'Cause I'm like, I'm thinking I've got two ways of answering I can answer as if I'm talking to management or as if I'm talking to the people who are actually going to use the products and I feel more aligned with the, I feel more aligned with the actual users. >> Yeah, I think let's just, we'll focus on that and I'll let you know, we just have a moment or two left. So if you could maybe boil it down for me a little bit. >> Boiling it down, I would say now look here CIS admins. It's really important that you get your job done but you need to understand that those privileged accounts that you're using on those systems are absolute gold dust if they get into the hands of your adversaries and you need protections income away from those adversaries, but we trust you and we are going to get you the access to your machines as fast as possible. So we're a little bit like a nightclub bouncer but we're like the Heineken of nightclub bounces. When you arrive, we know it's you and we're going to get you to your favorite machine logged on as domain admin, as fast as possible. And while you're there, we're going to cut that session recording of you. And just keep you safe and on the right side. >> All right, I'm going to enjoy my night in the nightclub. Now I can sleep easy tonight knowing that Andy Harris and Osirium are on the case. Thanks, Andy. Andy Harris speaking with us. So the Chief Technology Officer from Osirium as part of our Postgres vision, 2021, coverage here on theCUBE. (upbeat music) >> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE conversation.

>>Hello, and welcome. Very excited to see everybody here. DockerCon is going fantastic. Everybody's uh, engaging in the chat. It's awesome to see. My name is Peter McKee. I'm the head of developer relations here at Docker and Taber. Today. We're going to be talking about container first development now and in the future. But before we do that, a couple little housekeeping items, first of all, yes, we are live. So if you're in our session, you can go ahead and chat, ask us questions. We'd love to get all your questions and answer them. Um, if you come to the main page on the website and you do not see the chat, go ahead and click on the blue button and that'll die. Uh, deep dive you into our session and you can interact with the chat there. Okay. Without further ado, let's just jump right into it. Katie, how are you? Welcome. Do you mind telling everybody who you are and a little bit about yourself? >>Absolutely. Hello everyone. My name is Katie and currently I am the eco-system advocate at cloud native computing foundation or CNCF. My responsibility is to lead and represent the end-user community. So these are all the practitioners within the cloud native space that are vendor neutral. So they use cloud native technologies to build their services, but they don't sell it. So this is quite an important characteristic as well. My responsibility is to make sure to close the gap between these practitioners and the project maintainers, to make sure that there is a feedback loop around. Um, I have many roles within the community. I am on the advisory board for KIPP finishes, a sandbox project. I'm working with open UK to make sure that Elton standards are used fairly across data, hardware, and software. And I have been, uh, affiliated way if you'd asked me to make sure that, um, I'm distributing a cloud native fundamental scores to make cloud and they do a few bigger despite everyone. So looking forward to this panel and checking with everyone. >>Awesome. Yeah. Welcome. Glad to have you here. Johanna's how are you? Can you, uh, tell everybody a little bit about yourself and who you are? Yeah, sure. >>So hi everybody. My name is Johannes I'm one of the co-founders at get pot, which in case you don't know is an open-source and container based development platform, which is probably also the reason why you Peter reached out and invited me here. So pleasure to be here, looking forward to the discussion. Um, yeah, though it is already a bit later in Munich. Um, and actually my girlfriend had a remote cocktail class with her colleagues tonight and it took me some stamina to really say no to all the Moscow mules that were prepared just over there in my living room. Oh wow. >>You're way better than me. Yeah. Well welcome. Thanks for joining us. Jerome. How are you? Good to see you. Can you tell everybody who you are and a little bit about yourself? Hi, >>Sure. Yeah, so I'm, I, I used to work at Docker and some, for me would say I'm a container hipster because I was running containers in production before it for hype. Um, I worked at Docker before it was even called Docker. And then since 2018, I'm now a freelancer and doing training and consulting around Docker containers, Kubernetes, all these things. So I used to help folks do stuff with Docker when I was there and now I still have them with containers more generally speaking. So kind of, uh, how do we say same, same team, different company or something like that? Yeah. >>Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Good to see you. I'm glad you're on. Uh, Jacob, how are you? Good to see you. Thanks for joining us. Good. Yeah. Thanks for having me tell, tell everybody a little bit about yourself who you are. >>Yeah. So, uh, I'm the creator of a tool called mutagen, which is an open source, uh, development tool for doing high performance file synchronization and, uh, network forwarding, uh, to enable remote development. And so I come from like a physics background where I was sort of always doing, uh, remote developments, you know, whether that was on a big central clusters or just like some sort of local machine that was a bit more powerful. And so I, after I graduated, I built this tool called mutagen, uh, for doing remote development. And then to my surprise, people just started using it to use, uh, with Docker containers. And, uh, that's kind of grown into its primary use case now. So I'm, yeah, I've gotten really involved with the Docker community and, uh, talked with a lot of great people and now I'm one of the Docker captains. So I get to talk with even more and, and join these events and yeah, but I'm, I'm kind of focused on doing remote development. Uh, cause I, you know, I like, I like having all my tools available on my local machine, but I also like being able to pull in a little bit more powerful hardware or uh, you know, maybe a software that I can't run locally. And so, uh, that's sort of my interest in, in Docker container. Yeah. Awesome. >>Awesome. We're going to come back to that for sure. But yeah. Thank you again. I really appreciate you all joining me and yeah. So, um, I've been thinking about container first development for a while and you know, what does that actually mean? So maybe, maybe we can define it in our own little way. So I, I just throw it out to the panel. When you think about container first development, what comes to mind? What w what, what are you kind of thinking about? Don't be shy. Go ahead. Jerome. You're never a loss of words >>To me. Like if I go back to the, kind of the first, uh, you know, training engagements we did back at Docker and kind of helping folks, uh, writing Dockerfiles to stop developing in containers. Um, often we were replacing, um, uh, set up with a bunch of Vagrant boxes and another, like the VMs and combinations of local things. And very often they liked it a lot and they were very soon, they wanted to really like develop in containers, like run this microservice. This piece of code is whatever, like run that in containers because that means they didn't have to maintain that thing on their own machine. So that's like five years ago. That's what it meant to me back then. However, today, if you, if you say, okay, you know, developing in containers, um, I'm thinking of course about things like get bought and, uh, I think it's called PR or something like that. >>Like this theme, maybe that thing with the ESCO, that's going to run in a container. And you, you have this vs code thing running in your browser. Well, obviously not in your browser, but in a container that you control from your browser and, and many other things like that, that I, I think that's what we, where we want to go today. Uh, and that's really interesting, um, from all kinds of perspectives, like Chevy pair pairing when we will not next to each other, but actually thousands of miles away, um, or having this little environment that they can put aside and come back to it later, without it having using resource in my machine. Um, I don't know, having this dev service running somewhere in the cloud without needing something like, it's at the rights that are like the, the possibilities are really endless. >>Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. I'm, you know, a little while ago I was, I was torn, right. W do I spin up containers? Do I develop inside of my containers? Right. There's foul sinking issues. Um, you know, that we've been working on at Docker for a while, and Jacob is very, very familiar with those, right? Sometimes it, it becomes hard, but, and I, and I love developing in the cloud, but I also have this screaming, you know, fast machine sitting on my desktop that I think I should take advantage of. So I guess another question is, you know, should we be developing inside of containers? Is that a smart thing to do? Uh, I'd love to hear you guys' thoughts around that. >>You know, I think it's one of those things where it's, you know, for me container first development is really about, um, considering containers as sort of a first class citizen in, in terms of your development toolkit, right. I mean, there's not always that silver bullet, that's like the one thing you should use for everything. You know, you shouldn't, you shouldn't use containers if they're not fitting in or adding value to your workflow, but I think there's a lot of scenarios that are like, you know, super on super early on in the development process. Like as soon as you get the server kind of running and working and, you know, you're able to access it, you know, running on your local system. Uh that's I think that's when the value comes in to it to add containers to, you know, what you're doing or to your project. Right. I mean, for me, they're, um, they're more of a orchestrational tool, right? So if I don't have to have six different browser tabs open with like, you know, an API server running at one tab and a web server running in another tab and a database running in another tab, I can just kind of encapsulate those and, and use them as an automation thing. So I think, you know, even if you have a super powerful computer, I think there's still value in, um, using containers as, as a orchestrational mechanism. Yeah. Yeah, >>For sure. I think, I think one of the, one of my original aha moments with Docker was, oh, I can spin up different versions of a database locally and not have to install it and not have to configure it and everything, but, you know, it just ran inside of a container. And that, that was it. Although it's might seem simple to some people that's very, very powerful. Right. So I think being able to spin things up and containers very quickly is one of the super benefits. But yeah, I think, uh, developing in containers is, is hard right now, right. With, um, you know, and how do you do that? Right. Does anybody have any thoughts around, how do you go about that? Right. Should you use a container as just a development environment, so, you know, creating an image and then running it just with your dev tools in it, or do you just, uh, and maybe with an editor all inside of it, and it's just this process, that's almost like a VM. Um, yeah. So I'll just kick it back to the panel. I'd love to hear your thoughts on, you know, how do you set up and configure, uh, containers to develop in any thoughts around that? >>Maybe one step back again, to answer your question, what kind of container first development mean? I think it doesn't mean, um, by default that it has to be in the cloud, right? As you said, um, there are obvious benefits when it comes to the developer experience of containers, such as, I dunno, consistency, we have standardized tools dependencies for the dev side of things, but it also makes their dev environment more similar to all the pipeline that is somehow happening to the right, right. So CIC D all the way to production, it is security, right? Which also somehow comes with standardization. Um, but vulnerability scanning tools like sneak are doing a great job there. And, um, for us, it gets pod. One of the key reasons why we created get pod was literally creating this peace of mind for deaths. So from a developer's point of view, you do not need to take care anymore about all the hassle around setups and things that you will need to install. >>And locally, based on some outdated, REIT me on three operating systems in your company, everybody has something different and leading to these verbs in my machine situations, um, that really slow professional software developers down. Right. Um, back to your point, I mean, with good pod, we obviously have to package everything together in one container because otherwise, exactly the situation happens that you need to have five browser tabs open. So we try and leverage that. And I think a dev environment is not just the editor, right? So a dev environment includes your source code. It includes like a powerful shell. It includes file systems. It includes essentially all the tools you need in order to be productive databases and so on. And, um, yeah, we believe that should be encapsulated, um, um, in a container. >>Yeah. Awesome. Katie, you talked to a lot of end users, right. And you're talking to a lot of developers. What, what's your thoughts around container first development, right? Or, or what's the community out there screaming or screaming. It might be too to, uh, har you know, to, to two grand of the word. Right. But yeah, I love it. I love to hear what your, your thoughts. >>Absolutely. So I think when you're talking about continuing driven development, uh, the first thing that crosses my mind is the awareness of the infrastructure or the platform you're going to run your application on top of, because usually when you develop your application, you'd like to replicate as much as possible the production or even the staging environment to make sure that when you deploy your application, you have us little inconsistencies as possible, but at the same time, you minimize the risk for something to go wrong as well. So when it talking about the, the community, um, again, when you deploy applications and containers and Kubernetes, you have to use, you have awareness about, and probably apply some of the best practices, like introducing liveliness and readiness probes, to make sure that your application can restart in, in case it actually goes down or there's like a you're starving going CPU or something like that. >>So, uh, I think when it comes to deployment and development of an application, the main thing is to actually improve the end developer experience. I think there has been a lot of focus in the community to develop the tool, to actually give you the right tool to run application and production, but that doesn't necessarily, um, go back to how the end developer is actually enabling that application to run into that production system. So I think there has been, uh, this focus for the community identified now, and it's more, more, um, or trying to build momentum on enhancing the developer experience. And we've seen this going through many, uh, where we think production of many tools did what has been one of them, which actually we can have this portable, um, development environment if you choose so, and you can actually replicate them across different teams in different machines, which is actually quite handy. >>But at the same time, we had tools such as local composts has been a great tool to run locally. We have tool such as carefully, which is absolutely great to automatically dynamically upload any changes to how within your code. So I think all of these kinds of tools, they getting more matured. And again, this is going back to again, we need to enhance our developer experience coming back to what is the right way to do so. Um, I think it really depends on the environment you have in production, because there's going to define some of the structures with the tool and you're going to have internally, but at the same time, um, I'd like to say that, uh, it really depends on, on what trucks are developing. Uh, so it's, it's, I would like to personally, I would like to see a bit more diversification in this area because we might have this competitive solutions that is going to push us to towards a new edge. So this is like, what definitely developer experience. If we're talking about development, that's what we need to enhance. And that's what I see the momentum building at the moment. >>Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Jerome, I saw you shaking your head there in agreement, or maybe not, but what's your thoughts? >>I was, uh, I was just reacting until 82. Uh, it depends thinking that when I, when I do training, that's probably the answer that I gave the most, uh, each time somebody asks, oh, should we do diesel? And I was also looking at some of the questions in the chat about, Hey, the, should we like have a negatory in the, in the container or something like that. And folks can have pretty strong opinions one way or the other, but as a ways, it kind of depends what we do. It also depends of the team that we're working with. Um, you, you could have teams, you know, with like small teams with folks with lots of experience and they all come with their own Feb tools and editorials and plugins. So you know that like you're gonna have PRI iMacs out of my cold dead hands or something like that. >>So of course, if you give them something else, they're going to be extremely unhappy or sad. On the other hand, you can have team with folks who, um, will be less opinionated on that. And even, I don't know, let's say suddenly you start working on some project with maybe a new programming language, or maybe you're targeting some embedded system or whatever, like something really new and different. And you come up with all the tools, even the ADE, the extensions, et cetera, folks will often be extremely happy in that case that you're kind of giving them a Dettol and an ADE, even if that's not what they usually would, uh, would use, um, because it will come with all of the, the, the nice stage, you know, the compression, the, um, the, the, the bigger, the, whatever, all these things. And I think there is also something interesting to do here with development in containers. >>Like, Hey, you're going to start working on this extremely complex target based on whatever. And this is a container that has everything to get started. Okay. Maybe it's not your favorites editor, but it has all the customization and the conserver and whatever. Um, so you can start working right away. And then maybe later you, we want to, you know, do that from the container in a way, and have your own Emacs, atom, sublime, vs code, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but I think it's great for containers here, as well as they reserve or particularly the opportunity. And I think like the, that, that's one thing where I see stuff like get blood being potentially super interesting. Um, it's hard for me to gauge because I confess I was never a huge ID kind of person had some time that gives me this weird feeling, like when I help someone to book some, some code and you know, that like with their super nice IDE and everything is set up, but they feel kind of lost. >>And then at some point I'm like, okay, let's, let's get VI and grep and let's navigate this code base. And that makes me feel a little bit, you know, as this kind of old code for movies where you have the old, like colorful guy who knows going food, but at the end ends up still being obsolete because, um, it's only a going for movies that whole good for masters and the winning right. In real life, we don't have conformance there's anymore mentioned. So, um, but part of me is like, yeah, I like having my old style of editor, but when, when the modern editorial modern ID comes with everything set up and configured, that's just awesome. That's I, um, it's one thing that I'm not very good at sitting up all these little things, but when somebody does it and I can use it, it's, it's just amazing. >>Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I'm I feel the same way too. Right. I like, I like the way I've I have my environment. I like the tools that I use. I like the way they're set up. And, but it's a big issue, right? If you're switching machines, like you said, if you're helping someone else out there, they're not there, your key bindings aren't there, you can't, you can't navigate their system. Right? Yeah. So I think, you know, talking about, uh, dev environments that, that Docker's coming out with, and we're, you know, there's a lot, there, there's a, it's super complex, all these things we're talking about. And I think we're taking the approach of let's do something, uh, well, first, right. And then we can add on to that. Right. Because I think, you know, setting up full, full developed environments is hard, right. Especially in the, the, um, cloud native world nowadays with microservices, do you run them on a repo? >>Do you not have a monitor repo? Maybe that would be interesting to talk about. I think, um, you know, I always start out with the mono repos, right. And you have all your services in there and maybe you're using one Docker file. And then, because that works fine. Cause everything is JavaScript and node. And then you throw a little Python in there and then you throw a little go and now you start breaking things out and then things get too complex there, you know, and you start pulling everything out into different, get repos and now, right. Not everything just fits into these little buckets. Right. So how do you guys think maybe moving forward, how do we attack that night? How do we attack these? Does separate programming languages and environments and kind of bring them all together. You know, we, we, I hesitate, we solve that with compose around about running, right about executing, uh, running your, your containers. But, uh, developing with containers is different than running containers. Right. It's a, it's a different way to think about it. So anyway, sorry, I'm rattling on a little bit, but yeah. Be interesting to look at a more complex, uh, setup right. Of, uh, of, you know, even just 10 microservices that are in different get repos and different languages. Right. Just some thoughts. And, um, I'm not sure we all have this flushed out yet, but I'd love to hear your, your, you guys' thoughts around that. >>Jacob, you, you, you, you look like you're getting ready to jump there. >>I didn't wanna interrupt, but, uh, I mean, I think for me the issue isn't even really like the language boundary or, or, um, you know, a sub repo boundary. I think it's really about, you know, the infrastructure, right? Because you have, you're moving to an era where you have these cloud services, which, you know, some of them like S3, you can, you can mock up locally, uh, or run something locally in a container. But at some point you're going to have like, you know, cloud specific hardware, right? Like you got TPS or something that maybe are forming some critical function in your, in your application. And you just can't really replicate that locally, but you still want to be able to develop against that in some capacity. So, you know, my, my feeling about where it's going to go is you'll end up having parts of your application running locally, but then you also have, uh, you know, containers or some other, uh, element that's sort of cohabitating with, uh, you know, either staging or, or testing or production services that you're, uh, that you're working with. >>So you can actually, um, you know, test against a really or realistic simulation or the actual, uh, surface that you're running against in production. Because I think it's just going to become untenable to keep emulating all of that stuff locally, or to have to like duplicate these, you know, and, you know, I guess you can argue about whether or not it's a good thing that, that everything's moving to these kind of more closed off cloud services, but, you know, the reality of situation is that's where it's going to go. And there's certain hardware that you're going to want in the cloud, especially if you're doing, you know, machine learning oriented stuff that there's just no way you're going to be able to run locally. Right. I mean, if you're, even if you're in a dev team where you have, um, maybe like a central machine where you've got like 10 or 20 GPU's in it, that's not something that you're going to be able to, to, to replicate locally. And so that's how I kind of see that, um, you know, containers easing that boundary between different application components is actually maybe more about co-location, um, or having different parts of your application run in different locations, on different hardware, you know, maybe someone on your laptop, maybe it's someone, you know, AWS or Azure or somewhere. Yeah. It'd be interesting >>To start seeing those boundaries blur right. Working local and working in the cloud. Um, and you might even, you might not even know where something is exactly is running right until you need to, you know, that's when you really care, but yeah. Uh, Johanas, what's your thoughts around that? I mean, I think we've, we've talked previously of, of, um, you know, hybrid kind of environments. Uh, but yeah. What, what's your thoughts around that? >>Um, so essentially, yeah, I think, I mean, we believe that the lines between cloud and local will also potentially blur, and it's actually not really about that distinction. It's just packaging your dev environment in a way and provisioning your dev environment in a way that you are what we call always ready to coat. So that literally, um, you, you have that for the, you described as, um, peace of mind that you can just start to be creative and start to be productive. And if that is a container potentially running locally and containers are at the moment. I think, you know, the vehicle that we use, um, two weeks ago, or one week ago actually stack blitz announced the web containers. So potentially some things, well, it's run in the browser at some point, but currently, you know, Docker, um, is the standard that enables you to do that. And what we think will happen is that these cloud-based or local, um, dev environments will be what we call a femoral. So it will be similar to CIS, um, that we are using right now. And it doesn't literally matter, um, where they are running at the end. It's just, um, to reduce friction as much as possible and decrease and yeah, yeah. Essentially, um, avoid or the hustle that is currently involved in setting up and also managing dev environments, um, going forward, which really slows down specifically larger teams. >>Yeah. Yeah. Um, I'm going to shift gears a little bit here. We have a question from the audience in chat, uh, and it's, I think it's a little bit two parts, but so far as I can see container first, uh, development, have the challenges of where to get safe images. Um, and I was going to answer it, but let me keep it, let me keep going, where to get safe images and instrumentation, um, and knowing where exactly the problem is happening, how do we provide instrument instrumentation to see exactly where a problem might be happening and why? So I think the gist of it is kind of, of everything is in a container and I'm sitting outside, you know, the general thought around containers is isolation, right. Um, so how do I get views into that? Um, whether debugging or, or, or just general problems going on. I think that's maybe a broader question around the, how you, you know, you have your local hosts and then you're running everything containers, and what's the interplay there. W what's your thoughts there? >>I tend to think that containers are underused interactively. I mean, I think in production, you have this mindset that there's sort of this isolated environment, but it's very, actually simple to drop into a shell inside of a container and use it like you would, you know, your terminal. Um, so if you want to install software that way, you know, through, through an image rather than through like Homebrew or something, uh, you can kind of treat containers in that way and you can get a very, um, you know, direct access to the, to the space in which those are running in. So I think, I think that's maybe the step one is just like getting rid of that mindset, that, that these are all, um, you know, these completely encapsulated environments that you can't interact with because it's actually quite easy to just Docker exec into a container and then use it interactively >>Yeah. A hundred percent. And maybe I'll pass, I'm going to pass this question. You drone, but maybe demystify containers a little bit when I talked about this on the last, uh, panel, um, because we have a question in the, in the chat around, what's the, you know, why, why containers now I have VMs, right? And I think there's a misunderstanding in the industry, uh, about what, what containers are, we think they're fair, packaged stuff. And I think Jacob was hitting on that of what's underneath the hood. So maybe drown, sorry, for a long way to set up a question of what, what, what makes up a container, what is a container >>Is a container? Well, I, I think, um, the sharpest and most accurate and most articulate definition, I was from Alice gold first, and I will probably misquote her, but she said something like containers are a bunch of capsulated processes, maybe running on a cookie on welfare system. I'm not sure about the exact definition, but I'm going to try and, uh, reconstitute that like containers are just processes that run on a Unix machine. And we just happen to put a bunch of, um, red tape or whatever around them so that they are kind of contained. Um, but then the beauty of it is that we can contend them as much, or as little as we want. We can go kind of only in and put some actual VM or something like firecracker around that to give some pretty strong angulation, uh, all we can also kind of decontam theorize some aspects, you know, you can have a container that's actually using the, um, the, um, the network namespace of the host. >>So that gives it an entire, you know, wire speed access to the, to the network of the host. Um, and so to me, that's what really interesting, of course there is all the thing about, oh, containers are lightweight and I can pack more of them and they start fast and the images can be small, yada yada, yada. But to me, um, with my background in infrastructure and building resilient, things like that, but I find really exciting is the ability to, you know, put the slider wherever I need it. Um, the, the, the ability to have these very light containers, all very heavily, very secure, very anything, and even the ability to have containers in containers. Uh, even if that sounds a little bit, a little bit gimmicky at first, like, oh, you know, like you, you did the Mimi, like, oh, I heard you like container. >>So I put Docker when you're on Docker. So you can run container for you, run containers. Um, but that's actually extremely convenient because, um, as soon as you stop building, especially something infrastructure related. So you challenge is how do you test that? Like, when we were doing.cloud, we're like, okay, uh, how do we provision? Um, you know, we've been, if you're Amazon, how do you provision the staging for us installed? How do you provision the whole region, Jen, which is actually staging? It kind of makes things complicated. And the fact that we have that we can have containers within containers. Uh, that's actually pretty powerful. Um, we're also moving to things where we have secure containers in containers now. So that's super interesting, like stuff like a SIS box, for instance. Um, when I saw that, that was really excited because, uh, one of the horrible things I did back in the days as Docker was privileged containers, precisely because we wanted to have Docker in Docker. >>And that was kind of opening Pandora's box. That's the right, uh, with the four, because privileged containers can do literally anything. They can completely wreck up the machine. Um, and so, but at the same time, they give you the ability to run VPNs and run Docker in Docker and all these cool things. You can run VM in containers, and then you can list things. So, um, but so when I saw that you could actually have kind of secure containers within containers, like, okay, there is something really powerful and interesting there. And I think for folks, well, precisely when you want to do development in containers, especially when you move that to the cloud, that kind of stuff becomes a really important and interesting because it's one thing to have my little dev thing on my local machine. It's another thing when I want to move that to a swarm or Kubernetes cluster, and then suddenly even like very quickly, I hit the wall, which is, oh, I need to have containers in my containers. Um, and then having a runtime, like that gets really intense. >>Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, and jumping back a bit, um, yeah, uh, like you said, drum at the, at the base of it, it containers just a, a process with, with some, uh, Abra, pardon me, operating constructs wrapped around it and see groups, namespaces those types of things. But I think it's very important to, for our discussion right. Of, uh, developers really understanding that, that this is just the process, just like a normal process when I spin up my local bash in my term. Uh, and I'm just interacting with that. And a lot of the things we talk about are more for production runtimes for securing containers for isolating them locally. I don't, I don't know. I'll throw the question out to the panel. Is that really relevant to us locally? Right. Do we want to pull out all of those restrictions? What are the benefits of containers for development, right. And maybe that's a soft question, but I'd still love to hear your thoughts. Maybe I'll kick it over to you, Katie, would you, would you kick us off a little bit with that? >>I'll try. Um, so I think when, again, I was actually thinking of the previous answers because maybe, maybe I could do a transition here. So, interesting, interesting about containers, a piece of trivia, um, the secrets and namespaces have been within the Linux kernel since 2008, I think, which just like more than 10 years ago, hover containers become popular in the last years. So I think it's, it's the technology, but it's about the organization adopting this technology. So I think why it got more popular now is because it became the business differentiator organizations started to think, how can I deliver value to my customers as quickly as possible? So I think that there should be this kind of two lane, um, kind of progress is the technology, but it's at the same time organization and cultural now are actually essential for us to develop, uh, our applications locally. >>Again, I think when it's a single application, if you have just one component, maybe it's easier for you to kind of run it locally, have a very simple testing environment. Sufficient is a container necessary, probably not. However, I think it's more important when you're thinking to the bigger picture. When we have an architecture that has myriads of microservices at the basis, when it's something that you have to expose, for example, an API, or you have to consume an API, these are kind of things where you might need to think about a lightweight set up within the containers, only local environment to make sure that you have at least a similar, um, environment or a configuration to make sure that you test some of the expected behavior. Um, I think the, the real kind of test you start from the, the dev cluster will like the dev environment. >>And then like for, for you to go to staging and production, you will get more clear into what exactly that, um, um, configuration should be in the end. However, at the same time, again, it's, it's more about, um, kind of understanding why you continue to see this, the thing, like, I don't say that you definitely need containers at all times, but there are situations when you have like, again, multiple services and you need to replicate them. It's just the place to, to, to work with these kind of, um, setups. So, um, yeah, really depends on what you're trying to develop here. Nothing very specific, unfortunately, but get your product and your requirements are going to define what you're going to work with. >>Yeah, no, I think that's a great answer, right. I think one of the best answers in, in software engineering and engineering in general as well, it depends. Right. It's things are very specific when we start getting down to the details, but yeah, generally speaking, you know, um, I think containers are good for development, but yeah, it depends, right. It really depends. Is it helping you then? Great. If it's hindering you then, okay. Maybe think what's, what's the hindrance, right. And are containers the right solution. I agree. 110% and, >>And everything. I would like absurd this too as well. When we, again, we're talking about the development team and now we have this culture where we have the platform and infrastructure team, and then you have your engineering team separately, especially when the regulations are going to be segregated. So, um, it's quite important to understand that there might be a, uh, a level of up-skilling required. So pushing for someone to use containers, because this is the right way for you to develop your application might be not, uh, might not be the most efficient way to actually develop a product because you need to spend some time to make sure that the, the engineering team has the skills to do so. So I think it's, it's, again, going back to my answers here is like, truly be aware of how you're trying to develop how you actually collaborate and having that awareness of your platform can be quite helpful in developing your, uh, your publication, the more importantly, having less, um, maybe blockers pushing it to a production system. >>Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. The, uh, the cultural issue is, is, um, within the organization, right. Is a very interesting thing. And it, and I would submit that it's very hard from top down, right. Pushing down tools and processes down to the dev team, man, we'll just, we'll just rebel. It usually comes from the bottom up. Right. What's working for us, we're going to do right. And whether we do it in the shadows and don't let it know, or, or we've conformed, right. Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, interesting. I would like to think a little bit in the future, right? Like, let's say, I don't know, two, three years from now, if, if y'all could wave a and I'm from Texas. So I say y'all, uh, if you all could wave a magic wand, what, what, what would that bring about right. What, what would, what would be the best scenario? And, and we just don't have to say containers. Right. But, you know, what's the best development environment and I'm going to kick it over to you, Jacob. Cause I think you hinted at some of that with some hybrid type of stuff, but, uh, yeah. Implies, they need to keep you awake. You're, you're, you're, uh, almost on the other side of the world for me, but yeah, please. >>Um, I think, you know, it's, it's interesting because you have this technology that you've been, that's been brought from production, so it's not, um, necessarily like the right or the normal basis for development. So I think there's going to be some sort of realignment or renormalization in terms of, uh, you know, what the, what the basis and the abstractions that we're using on a daily basis are right. Like images and containers as they exist now are really designed for, um, for production use cases. And, and in terms of like, even even the ergonomics of opening a shell inside a container, I think is something that's, um, you know, not as polished or not as smooth as it could be because they've come from production. And so I think it's important, like not to, not to have people look at, look at the technology as it exists now and say like, okay, this is slightly rough around the edges, or it wasn't designed for this use case and think, oh, there's, you know, there's never any way I could use this for, for my development of workflows. >>I think it's, you know, it's something Docker's exploring now with, uh, with the, uh, dev containers, you know, it's, it's a new, and it's an experimental paradigm and it may not be what the final picture looks like. As, you know, you were saying, there's going to be kind of a baseline and you'll add features to that or iterate on that. Um, but I think that's, what's interesting about it, right? Cause it's, there's not a lot of things as developers that you get to play with that, um, that are sort of the new technology. Like if you're talking about things you're building to ship, you want to kind of use tried and true components that, you know, are gonna, that are going to be reliable. But I think containers are that interesting point where it's like, this is an established technology, but it's also being used in a way now that's completely different than what it was designed for. And, and, you know, as hackers, I think that's kind of an interesting opportunity to play with it, but I think, I think that's, what's going to happen is you're just going to see kind of those production, um, designed, uh, knobs kind of sanded down or redesigned for, for development. So that's kind of where I see it going. >>Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what I was trying to hint out earlier is like, um, yeah, just because all these things are there, does it actually mean we need them locally? Right. Do they make sense? I, I agree. A hundred percent, uh, anybody else drawn? What are your thoughts around that? And then, and then, uh, I'll probably just ask all of you. I'd love to hear each of your thoughts of the future. >>I had a thought was maybe unrelated, but I was kind of wondering if we would see something on the side of like energy efficiency in some way. Um, and maybe it's just because I've been thinking a lot about like climate change and things like that recently, and trying to reduce like the, uh, the energy use energy use and things like that. Perhaps it's also because I recently got a new laptop, which on paper is super awesome, but in practice, as soon as you try to have like two slack tabs and a zoom call, you know, it's super fast, both for 30 seconds. And after 30 seconds, it blows its thermal budget and it's like slows down to a crawl. And I started to think, Hmm, maybe, you know, like before we, we, we were thinking about, okay, I don't have that much CPU available. So you have to be kind of mindful about that. >>And now I wonder how are we going to get in something similar to that, but where you try to save CPU cycles, not just because you don't have that many CPU cycles, but more because you know, that you can't go super fast for super long when you are on one of these like small laptops or tablets or phones, like you have this demo budget to take into account. And, um, I wonder if, and how like, is there something where goaltenders can do some things here? I guess it can be really interesting if they can do some the equivalent of like Docker top and Docker stats. And if I could see, like how much what's are these containers using, I can already do that with power top on Linux, for instance, like process by process. So I'm thinking I could see what's the power usage of, of some containers. Um, and I wonder if down the line, is this going to be something useful or is this just silly because we can just masquerade CPU usage for, for Watson and forget about it. >>Yeah. Yeah. It was super, super interesting, uh, perspective for sure. I'm going to shut up because I want to, I want to give, make sure I give Johannes and Katie time. W w what are your thoughts of the future around, let's just say, you know, container development in general, right? You want, you want to start absolutely. Oh, honest, Nate. Johns wants more time. I say, I'll try not to. Beneficiate >>Expensive here, but, um, so one of the things that we've we've touched upon earlier in the panel was multicloud strategy. And I was reading one of the data reports from it was about the concept of Kubernetes from gamer Townsville. But what is working for you to see there is that more and more organizations are thinking about multicloud strategy, which means that you need to develop an application or need an infrastructure or a component, which will allow you to run this application bead on a public cloud bead, like locally in a data center and so forth. And here, when it comes to this kind of, uh, maybe problems we come across open standards, this is where we require something, which will allow us to execute our application or to run our platform in different environments. So when you're thinking about the application or development of the application, one of the things that, um, came out in 2019 at was the Oakland. >>Um, I wish it was Kybella, which is a, um, um, an open application model based application, which allows you to describe the way you would like your service to be executed in different environments. It doesn't need to be well developed specifically for communities. However, the open application model is specialized. So specialized tries to cover multiple platforms. You will be able to execute your application anywhere you want it to. So I think that that's actually quite important because it completely obstructs what is happening underneath it, completely obstructs notions, such as containers, uh, or processes is just, I want this application and I want to have this kind of behavior is so example of, to scale in this conditions or to, um, to be exposed for these, uh, end points and so forth. And everything that I would like to mention here is that maybe this transcends again, the, uh, the logistics of the application development, but it definitely will impact the way we run our applications. >>So one of the biggest, well, one of the new trends that is kind of gaining momentum now has been around Plaza. And this is again, something which is trying to present what we have the on containers. Again, it's focusing on the, it's kind of a cyclical, um, uh, action movement that we have here. When we moved from the VMs to containers, it was smaller footprint. We want like better execution, one, this agnosticism of the platforms. We have the same thing happening here with Watson, but again, it consents a new, um, uh, kind of, well, it teaches in you, uh, in new climax here, where again, we shrink the footprint of the cluster. We have a better isolation of all the services. We have a better trend, like portability of how services and so forth. So there is a great potential out there. And again, like why I'm saying this is some of these technologies are gonna define the way we're gonna do our development of the application on our local environment. >>That's why it's important to kind of maybe have an eye there and maybe see if some of those principles of some of those technologies we can bring internally as well. And just this, like a, a final thought here, um, security has been mentioned as well. Um, I think it's something which has been, uh, at the forefront, especially when it comes to containers, uh, especially when it comes to enterprise organizations and those who are regulated, which I feel come very comfortable to run their application within a VM where you have the full isolation, you can do what we have complete control of what's happening inside that compute. So, um, again, security has been at the forefront at the moment. So I know it has mentioned in the panel before. I'd like to mention that we have the security white paper, which has been published. We have the software supply chain, white paper as well, which twice to figure out or define some of these good practices as well, again, which you can already apply from your development environment and then propagate them to production. So I'm just going to leave, uh, all of these. That's all. >>That's awesome. And yeah, well, while is very, very interesting. I saw the other day that, um, and I forget who it was, maybe, maybe all can remember, um, you know, running, running the node, um, engine inside of, you know, in Walzem inside of a browser. Right. And, uh, at first glance I said, well, we already have a JavaScript execution engine. Right. And it's kind of like Docker and Docker. So you have, uh, you know, you have the browser, then, then you have blossom and then you have a node, you know, a JavaScript runtime. And, and I didn't understand was while I was, um, you know, actually executing is JavaScript and it's not, but yeah, it's super interesting, super powerful. I always felt that the browser was, uh, Java's what write once run anywhere kind of solution, right. That never came about, they were thinking of set top, uh, TV boxes and stuff like that, which is interesting. >>I don't know, you'll some of the history of Java, but yeah. Wasm is, is very, I'm not sure how to correctly pronounce it, but yeah, it's extremely interesting because of the isolation in that boxing. Right. And running powerful languages that were used to inside of a more isolated environment. Right. And it's almost, um, yeah, it's kind of, I think I've mentioned it before that the containers inside of containers, right. Um, yeah. So Johannes, hopefully I gave you enough time. I delayed, I delayed as much as I can. My friend, you better, you better just kidding. I'm just kidding, please, please. >>It was by the way, stack let's and they worked together with Google and with Russell, um, developing the web containers, it's called there's, it's quite interesting. The research they're doing there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what we believe and I, I also believe is that, um, yeah, probably somebody is doing to death environments, what Docker did to servers and at least that good part. We hope that somebody will be us. Um, so what we mean by that is that, um, we think today we are still somehow emotionally attached to our dev environments. Right. We give them names, we massage them over time, which can also have its benefits, but it's, they're still pets in some way. Right. And, um, we believe that, um, environments in the future, um, will be treated similar like servers today as automated resources that you can just spin up and close down whenever you need them. >>Right. And, um, this trend essentially that you also see in serverless, if you look at what kind of Netlify is doing a bit with preview environments, what were sellers doing? Um, there, um, we believe will also arrive at, um, at Steph environments. It probably won't be there tomorrow. So it will take some time because if there's also, you know, emotion involved into, in that, in that transition, but ultimately really believe that, um, provisioning dev environments also in the cloud allows you to leverage the power of the cloud and to essentially build all that stuff that you need in order to work in advance. Right? So that's literally either command or a button. So either, I don't know, a command that spins up your local views code and SSH into, into a container, or you do it in a browser, um, will be the way that professional development teams will develop in the future. Probably let's see in our direction of document, we say it's 2000 to 23. Let's see if that holds true. >>Okay. Can we, can, we let's know. Okay. Let's just say let's have a friendly bet. I don't know that's going to be closed now, but, um, yeah, I agree. I, you know, it's my thought around is it, it's hard, right? Th these are hard. And what problems do you tackle first, right? Do you tackle the day, one of, uh, you know, of development, right. I joined a team, Hey, here's your machine? And you have Docker installed and there you go, pull, pull down your environment. Right. Is that necessarily just an image? You know, what, what exactly is that sure. Containers are involved. Right. But that's, I mean, you, you've probably all gone through it. You joined a team, new project, even open-source project, right there. There's a huge hurdle just to get everything configured, to get everything installed, to get it up and running, um, you know, set aside all understanding the code base. >>Cause that's a different issue. Right. But just getting everything running locally and to your point earlier, Jacob of around, uh, recreating, local production cues and environments and, you know, GPS or anything like that, right. Is extremely hard. You can't do a lot of that locally. Right. So I think that's one of the things I'd love to see tackled. And I think that's where we're tackling in dev environments, uh, with Docker, but then now how do you become productive? Right. And where do we go from there? And, uh, and I would love to see this kind of hybrid and you guys have been all been talking about it where I can, yes. I have it configured everything locally on my nice, you know, apple notebook. Right. And then, you know, I go with the family and we go on vacation. I don't want to drag this 16 inch, you know, Mac laptop with me. >>And I want to take my nice iPad with the magic keyboard and all the bang stuff. Right. And I just want to fire up and I pick up where I left off. Right. And I keep coding and environment feels, you know, as much as it can that I'm still working at backup my desktop. I think those, those are very interesting to me. And I think reproducing, uh, the production running runtime environments as close as possible, uh, when I develop my, I think that's extremely powerful, extremely powerful. I think that's one of the hardest things, right. It's it's, uh, you know, we used to say, we, you debug in production. Right. We would launch, right. We would do, uh, as much performance testing as possible. But until you flip that switch on a big, on a big site, that's where you really understand what is going to break. >>Right. Well, awesome. I think we're just about at time. I really, really appreciate everybody joining me. Um, it's been a pleasure talking to all of you. We have to do this again. If I, uh, hopefully, you know, I I'm in here in America and we seem to be doing okay with COVID, but I know around the world, others are not. So my heart goes out to them, but I would love to be able to get out of here and come see all of you and meet you in person, maybe break some bread together. But, um, again, it was a pleasure talking to you all, and I really appreciate you taking the time. Have a good evening. Cool. >>Thanks for having us. Thanks for joining us. Yes.

>>Mhm Yes. >>Hello and welcome back to the cubes coverage of Del Tech World Virtual. I'm john for a host of the cube. We've got a great two guests here talking about a new apex brand and products Allison Langdon, Senior Manager, product marketing at Dell and David Reed senior Director of Product Management. Dell all around the apex to CUBA alumni's great to see you remotely. Soon to be in person. It's right around the corner but great to see you. >>Hey, thanks for having me and us. >>So I wish >>we were in person. >>We missed the Deltek Worlds amazing event. Um we're virtual this year but all great goodness is here but great big announcement still go on. The Apex Brandon portfolio is coming together the cloud and as a service, everything is happening. You got the new apex data storage service take us through what what is the new service? Why? >>Sure. So I can start um you know, we've been seeing this this shift towards an as a service model, you know I. T. Has always struggled with complexities associated with under and over provisioning capital budget constraints, lengthy and complex to refresh cycles. So you know the events over this past year and our new normal is really accelerated these you know challenges and it made them even more manageable. You know organizations need to become really agile and um they don't want to invest make big upfront investments in infrastructure when they're having such a hard time forecasting there needs you know the new levels of unpredictability that's been accelerating this you know adoption of as of service. So this is why we're introducing apex data storage services essentially were radically simplifying how customers can acquire and manage their storage resources. So data storage services is going to be the first as a service offering in our apex portfolio. So it's going to provide an on crown portfolio of scalable and elastic storage resources that are designed for affects treatment. It's all going to be anchored in our apex console. So it's gonna be a seamless self service experience where you just have a few key inputs, your data service, your performance tier, you're looking for your commitment term, your base capacity, for example and then all the infrastructure is owned and maintained by us built on our Industry leading Technology. So really delivering a super simple self service as a service experience, >>You know, when Jeff Clark was first talking about this as a service as it should be, you know, introducing the project, Apex Devon, I was kind of okay, this is kind of what we heard when we were last in person in 2019. The end to end l cloud, hybrid, cloud operating model, this is kind of what we're talking about here. What's something that covers? What's what's what is this data services? How does that vector into that? Because you know data control planes are being talked about a lot. The use of data in A I. And A II. Operations impacts I. T. And cloud scale. So hybrids now the operating model for the enterprise. >>Yeah. Yeah definitely. And it's this is really only where we're starting and we're going to be starting on a set of apex data storage services. Um so if I step back a little bit and talk a little bit about what apex data storage services are, I'd like to draw a little bit of a contrast to how customers procure their equipment today. So a customer typically today says I need some storage I need some mid range storage. I need for example a power store 5000 and then they work with the sales representative and says I need 24 1.92 terabyte drives. They need certain connectivity and then we present a quote to them with a whole bunch of line items with a lot of different prices and then the customer needs purchased that year, purchased that upfront and then uh, the only asset and then they managed the asset. So they're taking the risk. They need to plan for that capacity. And what we're doing is we're radically flipping that model. Uh, and what we're, what we're doing here is we're just driving to an outcome. So customers, they don't want to take that risk. They just want to drive to their business outcomes and they want to manage their applications. So what they have to do in this model is just pick, hey, I want storage services, I want some block services, I want a certain performance level and I learned a certain capacity and I want a commitment level. And what we do is we basically create a rate for them And we've optimized a lot of our processes on the back end to be able to, once that order has booked, we target a very rapid time of 14 days from the time the order is dropped until the customer can actually start operating on that here. From the, the time is dropped to the time that they can produce in their first volume Is 14 days. And really all they have to do is operate the year and we manage everything everything for them that you know, from capacity management to change management to software, life cycles, patching and you and things like that. And now jOHN I want to address your question about the hybrid world. It's absolutely designed for a hybrid world. So in our first release will be offering this on customer premises. And we're also introducing announcing a relationship we have with the data center provider of Equinox, which is the largest co location provider in the world. And what will be able to do is provide the subscription service of this as a service, not only customer on customer premises but in near cloud environments, in a co location facility. And we also have software assets that will extend into this environment, all driven by a central pain of unified experience. >>That's awesome. The hybrid cloud, It's gotta have that table stakes now. So, good, good plug there. Thanks Call out Allison, I gotta ask you on the customer side, what's the drivers for the apex data storage service? What was the key things that there you're hearing, why this is important to them? Uh, and what is the value proposition? >>Right, Great question. So I touched on a little bit of that upfront, but it's, you know, essentially what we what we do with this offering is take it out of the infrastructure business so that they can focus on more value added activities, focusing on customer satisfaction. Um You know, because we're maintaining we're managing and maintaining all the infrastructure for them. You know, some of the key pain points are just, you know, the overhead associated with maintaining and managing that infrastructure. But there's also the financial aspect as well. These services are designed for affects treatment, so you're not having to make that big initial Capex expense, um you're really able to align your expenses with actual usage versus anticipated usage. So it eliminates that, you know, cycle of over and under provisioning, which either results in, you know, over provisions waste or under provisions risk. We essentially, you know, streamlined all of those processes. So the customer just has to worry about operating the, operating their storage and it takes a lot of that worry off of them and they're able to just pay for what they use, elastically scale of resources up and down. So it's essentially really simplified and more predictable. >>Page has always been one of those things where hey, I'll pay when I need it. I gotta ask you on the differentiation side. This is comes up all the time. How do you guys different from alternatives? How do you differentiate going forward? How do you guys be successful? What's the, what's the strategy? What's the, what's the focus? >>Yeah. So I'll take the, I'll take a couple of points and then I'll pass it over to you Alison if you don't >>mind. Um, >>so first and foremost, I'm asked this a lot. So what does Dell bring to the table in this whole little apex? And as a service? First and foremost, Del is the leading infrastructure provider for all of I. T. On premise. We have the enterprise infrastructure re leading across just about every major category of infrastructure. So first and foremost we have that. We also have the scale of the reach, not only in our enterprise relationships through our partner community. So that is one that is one huge advantage that we have. One thing that we're and we talked about this model. Um the level of management that we provide for our customers is second to none with this solution. So we provide um we provide all of the the difficult management tasks from end end that a customer that we repeatedly hear from our customers that they don't want to be dealing with anymore. And we're going to be able to do that at scale for our customers. And I know there's a couple more points, so I'd like to I'll pass it on to Alison and she can she can address a couple more points there. >>Yeah, sure. I mean obviously Devin makes a great point as being an industry leader and just the breadth of our portfolio in general, beyond just storage that we can essentially deliver as a service, but no, with our initial flagship storage as a service offering. Um, so with apex data storage services, you know, I talked a little bit about, you know, the pay as you go, pay as you know, pay for what you use. You know, essentially the way this works is, you know, there's an initial based commitment of capacity that the customer commits to and then they're able to elastically scale up and down above that base and only pay for what they use. One of the differentiators were bringing to the table is that, you know, in addition to that base and that, you know, the on demand space if you will, that that goes above that we're charging a single rate. So it's really a simplified and transparent billing process. So you're not getting any over ridge penalties or fees for going into that on demand. It's essentially a single rate based on your commitment and you know, as much as you scale up and down, you're gonna you're gonna stay within one single rate. So no surprise average penalties. So that's definitely something that that differentiates us. And the customers also have the ability to raise that based commitment at any point. Co terminus lee in their contract. So if they're seeing like a strong growth trajectory or anticipating a more, you know, a big burst in usage for some data intensive type workloads. You know, we can add that can raise that floor commitment resulting in a lower rate but still a single rate for both based on demand. >>Well certainly data storage and moving data around, having it in the edge to the core to whatever is critical. And I think I think that's a great service. The question I want to ask you guys next to addresses. Give us an update on the apex brand and portfolio overall. How does this fit in? How is it shaping out? Can just take a minute to explain kind of where it is right now and what's available, how it was the strategy and what's coming? >>Sure. So I can talk a little bit about what's available when we're talking about today and then maybe devon if you can touch a little bit on the on the strategy and going forward. Um But what we've announced today is you at Del Tech World is the apex brand, the apex portfolio, which as I mentioned, it's our strategy for as a service and cloud. So in addition to our data storage services offering that we've been focused on today, um which is part of our infrastructure services, we're also introducing our cloud services as well as some more customizable services. So from a cloud services perspective, we're also going to be talking about our apex private cloud and apex hybrid cloud offerings. And then of course the apex console is really what brings all of these pieces together. It's that single self service experience to manage all of your as a service resources from a single place, David, I don't know if you want to take it. >>So what I would, what I would like to add is a little bit more color on the customized services. So if you look at apex at a high level um it's really how we're transforming the way we do business with our partners and customers and the way we deliver products and offers to our our partners and customers. And within the apex umbrella there's really two segments of customers that we see. One, there is still a segment of customers that want some technology control. They want to build their they want to build their clouds, they want to build their infrastructure and that's where really the apex custom comes into it. And we have a very large business in our custom business today with Dell technologies on demand with flex on demand and data center utility and those will be represented to be apex flex on demand, apex data center utility, um you know, that's what we're announcing here. And then the second portion is really this apex turnkey offer where customers don't care to manage it, they want to just consume, they want to operate their gear. And that's where a lot of the innovation, a lot of the a lot of the strategy that we're talking about here with the hybrid cloud service, the product cloud service, apex data storage services. So we're building out a set of world class infrastructure services that will then be able to wrap our leading infrastructure utilities around data protection, security, migration, compliance etcetera. And then build a set of horizontal and vertical solutions on top of this infrastructure to provide uh paramount uh value to our >>awesome Alice. I gotta ask you because this is always the case right. There's always one or two features that jump out the product, everything as a service clearly aligns with the market macro conditions in the marketplace and the evolution of the architecture in all businesses. That's clear, there's no debate on that. You guys got that nailed. What's the, what's the key thing if you had to kind of boil out the one thing that people are gravitating towards on the data storage service because um, everyone kinda is going here, right? So what if you get people that are watching it are learning what's popping out as the key product feature here or a few things that jump out. >>Sure. So, I mean really at the core, it's all about simplicity. Um, it's in terms of the console itself, which we've talked about it, you know, you have your infrastructure resources, your storage, your cloud services and it's all, it's just so simple. It's just, it's a matter of a few simple clicks and inputs that are pretty intuitive to meet your needs. It's the fact that its outcome based, you know, we're not focused on delivering a product, it's really truly delivering an outcome and a service to meet the customer's needs. So it's a whole new way of you know approaching the market and talking to our customers and making it intuitive and simple and seamless and really, you know, taking so much of the complexity off of the table for them. Um So it's the simplicity of the console, it's the being able to transition to more op ex model um from a financial aspect is huge and then you know aligning your expenses, you know with your actual versus and you know anticipated usage, so being able to manage that unpredictability, so that's necessary talking about a specific feature but really how we're driving towards really focusing on the customer needs. >>Now the business values right there, it's all about the outcome and you know, we're about getting charged on this variable, you know, over age on some service David. How about under the hood? If I look at the engine of this, how it fits into the kind of product architecture, you look at the product management, you're building the product and the engineers are cranking away what's the, what's the gear, what gears look like? What's the machinery look like under the hood? What's the cool tech, if any, um, you would share, if you can share. >>Yeah, it's interesting that you asked that, john and it's, it's really interesting that we got probably what, 12 minutes into this interview and we didn't even talk about a product, not one single product and that is really by design here. We're really, we're really selling the service. We're selling an offer. The product is the service, the service is the product and it's really about selling those outcomes. But then at the end of the day since we're talking talking shop here um we are introducing block services and that's powered by our new award winning power store mid range product and our file services are going to be powered by our um our award winning power scale and Ice alone systems as well. So we'll be interested you know introducing block and file services and we'll be extending that to object object services and data storage services. Uh >>huh, awesome. You know Alison and Devon I was talking to a friend we're running weren't on camera with the camera was turned on but we're just riffing about all the coolness around devops to have sex cops, how I. T. S go into large scale cloud apps and we're talking about all that and we were both kind of coming to the same conclusion that the next generation on top of all this automation is the excess of service, everything is a service. Because if you go that next level, that's where it is. Because the outcomes, the outcome is the services and that's underpinned by automation ai ops all the other stuff that's kind of hardened underneath still enables it. And you guys are already there. So congratulations. That's really cool reaction to that. That concept of automation powers X as a service. >>Yeah, I'll take that one, john. So, um while I talked only about playing storage technologies that power this there is a phenomenal amount of investment in um uh work and thought going into building out the underlying infrastructure and operations behind this because we need to provide um the operations and management of this infrastructure services, not only for storage but for compute and solutions and develops environment at scale. And it's crucial that we, we build out that infrastructure, that automation, that machine learning AI offers to really support this. So yeah, you're absolutely right. That is fundamental to getting this model. Uh nailed >>Alison. You're feeling pretty good about the product and the service. Now everything is a service that's your wheelhouse. It's happening. >>Yeah, here we are. We've got, we've got apex portfolio has arrived. So yeah, feeling good. Um, definitely excited. >>He was bright. Congratulations Allison David, thanks for coming on the Cuban, sharing the updates on the apex new data storage services, the new portfolio, the directionally correct action of everything as a service and all the automation that goes on the, that's really kind of a game changer. Thanks so much for sharing on the CUBA. Really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks a lot, john, >>thank you. Okay. >>Del Tech world cube coverage continues. I'm john Kerry, the host. Thanks for watching. Yeah. Mhm.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to this BizOps Manifesto Power Panel, Data Lake or Data Landfill. We're going to be talking about that today. I've got three guests joining me. We're going to dive through that. Kieran Taylor is here the CMO of Broadcom's Enterprise Software Division. Kieran, great to have you on the program. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> Kevin Surace is here as well. Chairman and CTO of Appvance, hey Kevin. >> Hey Lisa. >> And Isaac Sacolick Author and CEO of StarCIO. Isaac, welcome. >> Hi Lisa, thanks for having me. >> So we're going to spend the next 25 to 30 minutes talking about the challenges and the opportunities that data brings to organizations. You guys are going to share some of your best practices for how organizations can actually sort through all this data to make data-driven decisions. We're also going to be citing some statistics from the Inaugural BizOps Industry Survey of the State of Digital Business in which 519 business and technology folks were surveyed across five nations. Let's go ahead and jump right in and the first one in that server that I just mentioned 97% of organizations say we've got data related challenges, limiting the amount of information that we actually have available to the business. Big conundrum there. How do organizations get out of that conundrum? Kieran, we're going to start with you. >> Thanks Lisa. You know, I think, I don't know if it's so much limiting information as it is limiting answers. There's no real shortage of data I don't think being captured, recently met with a unnamed auto manufacturer Who's collecting petabytes of data from their connected cars and they're doing that because they don't really yet know what questions they have of the data. So I think you get out of this Data Landfill conundrum by first understanding what questions to ask. It's not algorithms, it's not analytics. It's not, you know, math that's going to solve this problem. It's really, really understanding your customer's issues and what questions to ask of the data >> Understanding what questions to ask of the data. Kevin, what are your thoughts? >> Yeah, look, I think it gets down to what questions you want to ask and what you want out of it, right? So there's questions you want to ask but what are the business outcomes you're looking for, which is the core of BizOps anyway, right? What are the business outcomes and what business outcomes can I act upon? So there are so many business outcomes you can get from data and you go, well, I can't legally act upon that. I can't practically act upon that. I can't, whether it's lay off people or hire people or whatever it is, right? So what are the actionable items? There is plenty of data. We would argue too much data. Now we could say, is the data good? Is the data bad? Is it poorly organized? Is it, noisy? There's all other problems, right? There's plenty of data. What do I do with it? What can I do that's actionable? If I was an automaker and I had lots of sensors on the road, I had petabytes, as Kieran says and I'd probably bringing in petabytes potentially every day. Well, I could make myself driving systems better. That's an obvious place to start or that's what I would do but I could also potentially use that to change people's insurance and say, if you drive in a certain way something we've never been able to do. If you drive in a certain way, based on the sensors you get a lower insurance rate, then nobody's done that. But now there's interesting business opportunities for that data that you didn't have one minute ago and I just gave away. So, (laughs) it's all about the actionable items in the data. How do you drive something to the top line and the bottom line? 'Cause in the end, that's how we're all measured. >> And Isaac, I know you say data is the lifeblood. What are your thoughts on this conundrum? >> Well, I think, you know, they gave you the start and the end of the equation, start with a question. What are you really trying to answer? What you don't understand that you want to learn about your business connect it to an outcome that is valuable to you. And really what most organizations struggle with is a process that goes through discovery, learning what's in the data, addressing data, quality issues, loading new data sources if required and really doing that iteratively and we're all agile people here at BizOps, right? So doing it iteratively, getting some answers out and understanding what the issues are with the underlying data and then going back and revisiting and reprioritizing what you want to do next. Do you want to go look at another question? Is the answer heading down a path that you can drive outcomes? Do you got to go cleanse some data? So it's really that, how do you put it together so that you can peel the onion back and start looking at data and getting insights out of it. >> Great advice, another challenge though, that the survey identified was that nearly 70% of the respondents and again, 519 business and technology professionals from five countries said, we are struggling to create business metrics from our data with so much data, so much that we can't access. Can you guys share best practices for how organizations would sort through and identify the best data sources from which they can identify the ideal business metrics? Kieran, take it away. >> Sure thing, I guess I'll build on Isaac's statements. Every company has some gap in data, right? And so when you do that, that data gap analysis I think you really, I don't know. It's like Alice in Wonderland, begin at the beginning, right? You start with that question like Isaac said, And I think the best questions are really born from an understanding of what your customers value. And if you dig into that, you understand what the customers value, you build it off of actual customer feedback, market research then you know what questions to ask and then from that, hey, what inputs do I need to really understand how to solve that particular business issue or problem. >> Kevin, what are your thoughts? >> Yeah, I'm going to add to that, completely agree but, look, let's start with sales data, right? So sales data is something, everybody watching this understands, even if they're not in sales, they go well, okay, I understand sales data. What's interesting there is we know who our customers are. We could probably figure out if we have enough data, why they buy, are they buying because of a certain sales person? Are they buying because it's a certain region? Are they buying because of some demographic that we don't understand, but AI can pull out, right? So I would like to know, who's buying and why they're buying. Because if I know that I might make more of what more of those people want whatever that is, certain fundamental sales changes or product changes or whatever it is. So if you could certainly start there, if you start nowhere else, say I sell X today. I'd like to sell X times 1.2 by next year. Okay, great. Can I learn from the last five years of sales, millions of units or million or whatever it is, how to do that better and the answer is for sure yes and yes there's problems with the data and there's holes in the data as Kieran said and there's missing data. It doesn't matter, there's a lot of data around sales. So you can just start there and probably drive some top line growth, just doing what you're already doing but doing it better and learning how to do it better. >> Learning how to do it better. Isaac, talk to us about what your thoughts are here with respect to this challenge. >> Well, when you look at that percentage 70% struggling with business metrics, you know what I see is some companies struggling when they have too few metrics and you know, their KPIs, it really doesn't translate well to people doing work for a customer for an application, responding to an issue. So when you have too few in there too disconnected from the work, people don't understand how to use them and then on the flip side I see other organizations trying to create metrics around every single part of the operation, you know, dozens of different ways of measuring user experience and so forth. And that doesn't work because now we don't know what to prioritize. So I think the art of this is management coming back and saying, what are the metrics? Do we want to see impact and changes over in a short amount of time, over the next quarter, over the next six months and to pick a couple in each category, certainly starting with the customer, certainly looking at sales but then also looking at operations and looking at quality and looking at risk and say to the organization, these are the two or three we're going to focus on in the next six months and then I think that's what simplifies it for organizations. >> Thanks, Isaac. So something that I found interesting, it's not surprising in that the survey found that too much data is one of the biggest challenges that organizations have followed by the limitations that we just talked about in terms of identifying what are the ideal business metrics, but a whopping 74% of survey respondents said we failed to have key data available in real time, which is a big inhibitor for data-driven decision-making. Can you guys offer some advice to organizations? How can they harness this data and glean insights from it faster, Kieran, take it away. >> Yeah, I think there are probably five steps to establishing business KPIs and Lisa your first two questions and these gentleman's answers laid out the first two that is define the questions that you want answers for and then identify what those data inputs would be. You know, if you've got a formula in mind, what data inputs do do you need? The remaining three steps. One is, you know, to evaluate the data you've got and then identify what's missing, you know what do you need to then fetch? And then that fetching, you need to think about the measurement method, the frequency I think Isaac mentioned, you know this concept of tools for all. We have too many tools to collect data. So, the measurement method and frequency is important standardizing on tools and automating that collection wherever possible. And then the last step, this is really the people component of the formula. You need to identify stakeholders that will own those business KPIs and even communicate them within the organization. That human element is sometimes forgotten and it's really important. >> It is important, it's one of the challenges as well. Kevin, talk to us about your thoughts here. >> Yeah, again I mean, for sure you've got in the end you've got the human element. You can give people all kinds of KPIs as Isaac said, often it's too many. You have now KPI the business to death and nobody can get out and do anything that doesn't work. Obviously you can't improve things until you measure them. So you have to measure, we get that. But this question of live data is interesting. My personal view is only certain kinds of data are interesting, absolutely live in the moment. So I think people get in their mind, oh, well if I could deploy IOT everywhere and get instantaneous access within one second to the amalgam of that data, I'm making up words too. That would be interesting. Are you sure that'd be interesting? I might rather analyze the last week of real, real data, really deep analysis, right? Build you know, a real model around that and say, okay for the next week, you ought to do the following. Now I get that if you're in the high-frequency stock trading business you know, every millisecond counts, okay? But most of our businesses do not run by the millisecond and we're not going to make a business decision especially humans involved in a millisecond anyway. We make business decisions based on a fair bit of data, days and weeks. So this is just my own personal opinion. I think people get hung up on this. I've got to have all this live data. No, you want great data analysis using AI and machine learning to evaluate as much data as you can get over whatever period of time that is a week, a month a year and start making some rational decisions off of that information. I think that is how you run a business that's going to crush your competition. >> Good advice, Isaac what are your thoughts on these comments? >> Yeah, I'm going to pair off of Kevin's comments. You know, how do you chip away at this problem at getting more real time data? And I'll share two insights first, from the top down, you know, when StarCIO works with a group of CEO and their executive group, you know how are they getting their data? Well, they're getting it in a boardroom with PowerPoints with spreadsheets behind those PowerPoints, with analysts doing a lot of number crunching and behind all that are all the systems of record around the CRM and the ERP and all the other systems that are telling them how they're performing. And I suggest to them for a month, leave the world of PowerPoint and Excel and bring your analysts in to show you the data live in the systems, ask questions and see what it's like to work with real time data. That first changes the perspective in terms of all the manual work that goes into homogenizing that data for them. But then they start getting used to looking at the tools where the data is actually living. So that's an exercise from the top down from the bottom up when we talk to the it groups, you know so much of our data technologies were built at a time when batch processing in our data centers was the only way to go. We ran these things overnight to move data from point a to point B and with the Cloud, with data streaming technologies it's really a new game in town. And so it's really time for many organizations to modernize and thinking about how they're streaming data. Doesn't necessarily have to be real time. It's not really IOT but it's really saying, I need to have my data updated on a regular basis with an SLA against it so that my teams and my businesses can make good decisions around things. >> So let's talk now about digital transformation. We've been talking about that for years. We talked a lot about in 2020, the acceleration of digital transformation for obvious reasons. But when organizations are facing this data conundrum that we talked about, this sort of data disconnect too much can't get what we need right away. Do we need it right away? How did they flip the script on that so that it doesn't become an impediment to digital transformation but it becomes an accelerant. Kieran >> You know, a lot of times you'll hear vendors talk about technology as being the answer, right? So MI, ML, my math is better than your math, et cetera. And technology is important but it's only effective to the point that which people can actually interpret understand and use the data. And so I would put forth this notion of having data at all levels throughout an organization too often. What you'll see is that I think Isaac mentioned it, you know the data is delivered to the C-suite via PowerPoint and it's been sanitized and scrubbed, et cetera. But heck, by the time it gets to the C-suite it's three weeks old. Data at all levels is making sure that throughout organization, the right people have real-time access to data and can make actionable decisions based upon that. So I think that's a real vital ingredient to successful digital transformation. >> Kevin. >> Well, I like to think of digital transformation as looking at all of your relatively manual or paper-based or other processes whatever they are throughout the organization and saying is this something that can now be done for lack of a better word by a machine, right? And that machine could be algorithms. It could be computers, it could be humans it could be Cloud, it could be AI it could be IOT doesn't really matter. (clears throat) And so there's a reason to do that and of course, the basis of that is the data. You've got to collect data to say, this is how we've been performing. This is what we've been doing. So an example, a simple example of digitalization is people doing RPA around customer support. Now you collect a lot of data on how customer support has been supporting customers. You break that into tiers and you say, here's the easiest, lowest tier. I had farmed that out to probably some other country 20 years ago or 10 years ago. Can I even with the systems in place, can I automate that with a set of processes, Robotic Process Automation that digitizes that process now, Now there still might be, you know 20 different screens that click on all different kinds of things, whatever it is, but can I do that? Can I do it with some Chatbots? Can I do it with it? No, I'm not going to do all the customer support that way but I could probably do a fair bit. Can I digitize that process? Can I digitize the process? Great example we all know is insurance companies taking claims. Okay, I have a phone. Can, I take a picture of my car that just got smashed send it in, let AI analyze it and frankly, do an ACH transfer within the hour, because if it costs them insurance company on average 300 to $500 depending on who they are to process a claim, it's cheaper to just send me the $500 then even question it. And if I did it two or three times, well then I'm trying to steal their money and I should go to jail, right? So these are just, I'm giving these as examples 'cause they're examples that everyone who is watching this would go, oh I understand you're digitizing a process. So now when we get to much more complex processes that we're digitizing in data or hiring or whatever, those are a little harder to understand but I just tried to give those as like everyone understands yes, you should digitize those. Those are obvious, right? >> Now those are great examples, you're right. They're relatable across the board here. Isaac, talk to me about what your thoughts are about. Okay, let's do the conundrum. How do we flip the script and leverage data, access to it insights to drive and facilitate digital transformation rather than impede it. >> Well remember, you know, digital transformation is really about changing the business model, changing how you're working with customers and what markets you're going after. You're being forced to do that because of the pace digital technologies are enabling competitors to outpace you. And so we really like starting digital transformations with a vision. What does this business need to do better, differently more of what markets are we going to go after? What types of technologies are important? And we're going to create that vision but we know long-term planning, doesn't work. We know multi-year planning, doesn't work. So we're going to send our teams out on an agile journey over the next sprint, over the next quarter and we're going to use data to give us information about whether we're heading in the right direction. Should we do more of something? Is this feature higher priority? Is there a certain customer segment that we need to pay attention to more? Is there a set of defects happening in our technology that we have to address? Is there a new competitor stealing market share all that kind of data is what the organization needs to be looking at on a very regular basis to say, do we need to pivot, what we're doing? Do we need to accelerate something? Are we heading in the right direction? Should we give ourselves high fives and celebrate a quick win? Because we've accomplished something 'cause so much of transformation is what we're doing today. We're going to change what we're doing over the next three years, and then guess what? There's going to be a new set of technologies. There's going to be another disruption that we can't anticipate and we want our teams sitting on their toes waiting to look at data and saying, what should we do next? >> That's a great segue Isaac into our last question, which is around culture that's always one of those elephants in the room, right? Because so much cultural transformation is necessary but it's incredibly difficult. So question for you guys, Kieran we'll start with you is, should you advise leadership, should really create a culture, a company-wide culture around data? What do you think? >> Absolutely. I mean, this reminds me of DevOps in many ways and you know, the data has to be shared at all levels and has to empower people to make decisions at their respective levels so that we're not, you know kind of siloed in our knowledge or our decision-making, it's through that collective intelligence that I think organizations can move forward more quickly but they do have to change the culture and they've got to have everyone in the room. Everyone's got a stake in driving business success from the C-suite down to the individual contributor >> Right, Kevin, your thoughts >> You know what? Kieran's right. Data silos, one of the biggest brick walls in all of our way, all the time, you know SecOps says there is no way I'm going to share that database because it's got PII. Okay, well, how about if we strip the PII? Well, then that won't be good for something else and you're getting these huge arguments and if you're not driving it from the top, certainly the CIO, maybe the CFO, maybe the CEO I would argue the CEO, drives it from the top. 'Cause the CEO drives company culture and you know, we talk BizOps and the first word of that is Biz. It's the business, right? It's Ops being driven by business goals and the CEO has to set the business goals. It's not really up to the CIO to set business goals. They're setting operational goals, it's up to the CEO. So when the CEO comes out and says our business goals are to drive up sales by this drive down cost by this drive up speed of product development, whatever it is and we're going to digitize all of our processes to do that. We're going to set in KPIs. We're going to measure everything that we do and everybody's going to work around this table. By the way just like we did with DevOps a decade ago, right? And said, Dev, you actually have to work with Ops now and they go, those dangerous guys way over in that other building, we don't even know who they are but in time people realize that we're all on the same team and that if developers develop something that operations can't host and support and keep alive, it's junk right? And we used to do that and now we're much better at it. And whether it's Dev, SecOps or Dev two-way Ops, whatever all those teams working together. Now we're going to spread that out and make it a bigger pyre on the company and it starts with the CEO. And when the CEO makes it a directive for the company I think we're all going to be successful. >> Isaac, what are your thoughts? >> I think we're really talking about a culture of transformation and a culture of collaboration. I mean, again, everything that we're doing now we're going to build, we're going to learn. We're going to use data to pivot what we're doing. We're going to release a product to customers. We're going to get feedback. We're going to continue to iterate over those things. Same thing when it comes to sales, same things that you know, the experiments that we do for marketing, what we're doing today, we're constantly learning. We're constantly challenging our assumptions. We're trying to throw out the sacred cows with status quo, 'cause we know there's going to be another Island that we have to go after and that's the transformation part. The collaboration part is really you know, what you're hearing. Multiple teams, not just Dev and Ops and not just data and Dev, but really the spectrum of business of product, of stakeholders, of marketing and sales, working with technologists and saying, look this is the things that we need to go after over these time periods and work collaboratively and iteratively around them. And again, the data is the foundation for this, right? And we talk about a learning culture as part of that, the data is a big part of that learning, learning new skills and what new skills to learn is as part of that. But when I think about culture, you know the things that slow down organizations is when they're not transforming fast enough, or they're going in five or six different directions, they're not collaborative enough and the data is the element in there that is an equalizer. It's what you show everybody to say, look what we're doing today is not going to make us survive over the next three years. >> The data equalizer, that sounds like it could be movie coming out in 2021. (laughing) Gentlemen, thank you for walking us through some of those interesting metrics coming out of the BizOps Inaugural Survey. Yes, there are challenges with data. Many of them aren't surprising but there's also a lot of tremendous opportunity and I liked how you kind of brought it around to from a cultural perspective. It's got to start from that C-suite to Kieran's point all the way down. I know we could keep talking, we're out of time, but we'll have to keep following, this as a very interesting topic. One that is certainly pervasive across industries. Thanks guys for sharing your insights. >> Than you. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> For Kieran Taylor, Kevin Surace and Isaac Sacolick. I'm Lisa Martin. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Yeah, yeah. >>Hello and welcome back. You're just in time for our third session spot. I Q amplify your insights with AI in this session will explore how AI gets you to the why of your data capturing changes and trends in the moment they happen. >>You'll >>start to understand how you can transform your data culture by making it easier for analysts to enable business users to consume insights in real time. >>You >>might think this all sounds too good to be true. Well, since seeing is believing, we're joined by thought spots. Vika Scrotum, senior product manager. Anak Shaped Mirror, principal product manager to walk you through all of this on MAWR. Over to you actually, >>Thank you. Wanna Hello, everyone. Welcome to the session. I am Action Hera, together with my colleague because today we will talk to you about how spot I Q uses a. I to generate meaningful insights for the users Before we dwell into that. Let's see why this is becoming so important. Your business and your data is growing and moving faster than ever. Data is considered the new oil Howard. Only those will benefit who can extract value of it. The data used in most of your organization's is just the tip of the iceberg beneath the tip of the iceberg. What you don't see or what you don't know to ask. That makes the difference in this data driven world. Let's learn how one can extract maximum value of the data to make smarter business decisions. We believe that analytics should require less input while producing more output with higher quality in a traditional approach. To be honest, users generally depend on somebody else to create data models, complex data queries to get answers to their pre anticipated questions. But solution like hot spot business users already have a Google like experience where they can just go and get answers to their questions. Now, if you look at other consumer applications, there are multiple of recommendation engines which are out there, which keep recommending. Which article should I read next? Which product should I buy? Which movie should I watch in a way, helping me optimized? Where should I focus my time on in a Similarly in analytics, as your data is growing, solutions must help users uncovered insights to questions which they may not ask, we believe, and a I automated insights will help users unleash the full potential off their data Across the spectrum, we see a potential in a smart, AI driven solution toe autonomously. Monitor your data and feed in relevant insights when you need them, much like a self driving car navigates our users safely to their desired destination. With this, yeah, I'm happy to introduce you to spot like you are a driven insights engine at scale, which will help you get full potential off your data like you automatically discovers, personalize and drive insights hidden in your data. So whenever you search to create answers, spot that you continues to ask a lot more questions on your behalf as it keeps drilling and related date dimensions and measures employed insights which may be of interest to you. Now you as a user can continue to ask your questions or can dig deeper into the inside, provided by spotted you Spartak. You also provides a comprehensive set of insights, which helps user get answers to their advance business questions. In a few clicks, so spotted it. You can help you detect any outlier, for example, spot that you can not only tell you which seller has the highest returns than others, but also which product that sellers selling has higher returns than other products. Or, like you can quickly detect any trends in your data and help us answer questions like how my account sign ups are trending after my targeted campaign is over. I can quickly use for, like, toe get unanswered how my open pipeline is related to my bookings amount and what's the like there. What it means is that how much time a lead will take to convert into a deal I can use partake. You, too, create multiple clusters off my all my customer base and then get answers to questions that which customer segment is buying which particular brand and what are the attributes last and the most used feature Key drivers of change spotted you helps you get answer to a question. What factors lead to the change in sales off a store in 2020 as compared to 2019? We can do all this and simple fix. That's barbecue. What is so unique about Spartak? You how it works hand in hand with our search experience, the more you search, the smarter. The spot that you get as it keeps learning from your usage behavior on generates relevant insights for you for your users. Spartak. You ensures that users can trust every insights. A generator. It broadly does this and broadly, two ways. It keeps their insights relevant by learning the underlying data model on. By incorporating the users feedback that is, users can provide feedback to the spot I Q similar to any social media back from, they can like watching sites they find useful on dislike. What insights Do not find it useful based on users. Feedback Spot like you can downgrade any insight if the users have not find it useful. In addition to that, users can dig deep into any Spartak you insight on all calculations behind it are available for a user to look and understand. The transparency in these calculations not only increases the analytical trust among the users, but also help them learn how they can use the search bar to do much more. I'm super excited to announce Partake you is now available on embrace so our automated A insights engine can run queries life and in database on these datasets so you do not need to bring your data to thoughts about as you connect your data sources. Touch Part performs full indexing value to the data you have selected, not just the headers in the material and as you run sport in Q, it optimizes and run efficient queries on your data warehouse on. I am super pleased to introduce you. This new spot like you monitor the spot that you monitor will enable all your users to keep track of their key metrics. Spartak, you monitor will not only provide them regular updates off their key metrics, but we also analyze all the underlying data on related dimensions to help them explain. What is leading to the change of a particular metric monitor will also be available on your mobile app so that you can keep track of your metrics whenever and wherever you go, because will talk for further detail about this during the demo. So now let's see Spartak in action. But before we go there, let's meet any. Amy is an analyst at a global retail about form. Amy is preparing for her quarterly sales review meeting with the management, so Amy has to report how the sales has meat performing how, what, what factors lead to the change in the sales? And if there are any other impressing insights, which everyone should off tell to the management? So but this Let's see how immigrant use part like you to prepare for the meeting. So Amy goes to that spot, chooses the sales data set for her company. But before we see how many users what I Q to prepare for the meeting. I just wanted to highlight that all this data which we're going to talk about is residing in Snowflake. >>So >>Touch Part is going to do a life query on the snowflake database on even spot. A Q analysis will run on the Snowflake databases, so we'll go back and see how you can use it. So Amy is preparing for the sales meeting for 2019. We just ended. So images right Sales 2019 on here. She has the graph of the Continent tickets, >>so >>what she does is immediately pence it >>for >>the report. She's creating Andi now. This graph is available >>there now. >>Any Monnet observed >>that >>the Q four sales is significantly higher than Q >>three, so >>you she wants to deep dive into this. So she just select these two data points and does the right click and runs particularities. So now, as we talked earlier, Spartak, you recommends which columns Spartak Things Will best explains this change >>on. >>Not only that, you can look that Spartacus automatically understood that Amy is trying toe identify what led to this change. So the change analysis we selected So now with this, >>Amy >>has a bit more business context when he realizes that she doesn't want to add these columns. So she's been using because she thinks this is too granular for the management right now. >>If >>she wants, she can add even more columns. All columns are available for her, and she can reduce columns. So now she runs 42 analysis. So while this product Unisys is running, what the system will do with the background, this part I Q will drill across all the dimensions, which any is selected and try to explain the difference, which is approximately $10 million in sales. So let's see if Amy's report is ready. Yeah, so with this, what's product you has done is protect you has drilled across all dimensions. Amy has selected and presented how the different values in these dimensions have changed. So it's product. You will not only tell you which values in these dimensions have changed the most, but also does an attribution that how much of this change has led to the overall change scenes. So here in the first inside sport accuse telling that 10 products have the largest change out of the 3 45 values and the account for 39% increase. Overall, there has been look by the prototype category. It's saying that five product types of the largest change out of the 15 values, and they account for 98.6% of total increase. And they're not saying the sailors increased their also demonstrating that in some categories the sales has actually decreased to ensure the sales has decreased. Amy finds this inside should be super useful so immediately pins this on the same pain, but she was preparing for and she's getting ready with that. Amy also wants to dig deeper into this inside. My name goes here. She sees that spot. I Q has not only calculated the change across these product types, but has also calculated person did change. So Amy immediately sorts this by wasn't did change. And then she notices that even though Sweater as a category as a prototype, was not appearing in the change analysis but has the most significant change in terms of percentage in comparison to Q two vs Q four. So she also wants to do this so she can just quickly change the title. And she can pin this insight as well under spin board for the management to look at with this done. Now, Amy, just want to go back to this sales and see if she can find anything else interesting. So now Amy has already figured out the possible causes. What led to the increase in sales? So now, for the whole of 2019, as this is also your closing, Amy looks, uh, the monthly figures for 2019, and she gets this craft now. If Amy has to understand, if there is an interesting insight, she can dig into different dimensions and figure out on her own or immigrant, just click on this product analysis. That's product immediately suggest all the dimensions and measures immigrant analyze sales by Andi many. We will run this What will happen is this barbecue system will try to identify outliers. The different trend analysis Onda cross correlation across different measures. So Amy again realizes that this is a bit too much for her. So she reduces some of these insights, which she thinks are not required for the management right now from the business context and the business meeting. And then she just immediately runs this analysis. So now, with this, Amy is hoping to get some interesting insights from Spartak, which immigrant present to her management meeting. Let's see what sport gets for her. So now the Alice is run within 10 seconds, so spot taken started analyzing. So these are the six anomaly sport like you found across different products, where their total sales are higher than the rest. He also founded Spot. I just found eight insights off different product types which has tired total sales and look across these enemy sees that oh jackets have against the highest sales across all the categories in December as well. Amy wants toe been this to the PIN board on M. It moves further now. Amy's is that it has also shown Total Country purchased their product a me thinks this is not a useful insights. Amy can get this feedback. The system and system asked, Why are you saying you don't find this useful so the system can remember? So you can also say that anomalies are obvious right now and give this feedback and the system will remember. In addition, Amy finds that the system has automatically correlated the total sales in total contrary purchase. Amy Pence this as well to the pin board. Andi. She loves this inside where she she is that not only the total sales have increased, but total quantity purchases have increased a lot more on their training, opposed as well. So she also opens this now anything. She is ready for her meeting with the management. So she just goes and shares the PIN board, which she just created with the management. And you know what happens immediately? The jacket sales category Manager Mr Tom replies back to Amy and says in the request, Any d really like this? So now we will see how Spartak you can help any educators as request doesn't mean really need to create these kind of reports every month to cater toe Tom's request. So with this, I will handle it because to take us walk us through How spot that you can cater this request. Hi, >>everyone. So analysts like Amy are always flooded with such requests from the business users and with Spot and you monitor. Amy can set up everyone who needs updates on a on a metric in just a few simple steps and enable them to drag these metrics whenever and wherever they want. And north of the metrics, they also get the corresponding change analysis on the device off their choice with hot Spot. What I give money being available on both Web and the mobile labs. So let's get started with the demo will be set up a meet and go to the search tab and creator times we start for the metrics you want to monitor, right? And please know if the charges already created is already created. All is available is, um, usually a section in a PIN board. Also dancer. Then there's no need to create a new child. She can simply then uh, right click on the chart and select moisture from the menu, which then shows, which then shows the breakdown off the metric he's going to monitor, including the measure. What it's been grouped by on what it is filtered on. Okay, and also as this is a weekly metric, all the subscribers are going to get a weekly notification for this metric had been a monthly metric. Then the notifications would have been delivered on a monthly cadence. Next she can click on, continue and go to the configure dimensions called on Page. Here A is recommending what all dimensions could best being the change in this metric, she can go ahead with default recommendation, or she can change the columns as she seems very she can click, she conflict, continue and go to the next page, which is the subscriber stage. It is added by default to the subscriber, but she can search everyone who needs update on this metric and add them on this metric by clicking confirmed, she'll see a toast message on the bottom of the page, taking on which will take a me to this page, which is a metric detail page On the top of this page, we can see the movement of the metric and how it is changing over time, 92 you can see that the Mets jacket, since number has increased by 2.5% in the week off 23rd of December has compared toa the week off 16th of December and just below e a has invaded the man is generated in sites which are readily available for consumption. Okay to discharge. Right here says that pain products have the largest change out of all the 28 values and contributes to the 88% of the total increase in the same. And this one right here is that Midwest is the larger Midwest has the largest change and accounts for 55.66% off the total increase. Now, all this goodness is also available on the mobile lab. Right? So let me just show you how business users are going to get notified on the based. On this metric, all the business users who are subscribed to this metric are going to get a regular email as well as push notifications on the mobile lab. And when the click on this, they line on a metric detail page which has all the starts, which I just showed you on the on the bed version, okay. And one cyclic on back burden. They land on this page, which is a monitor tab, and it summarizes all the metrics Which opportunity monitoring and gives them a whole gave you to stay all I want to stay on top of their businesses. Okay. Eso that folks was monitor. Now I'll search back to slaves and cover. Summarize the key takeaways. From what? That she and I just don't know. So it's part of you wanted, uh, Summit Spartak you. It automatically discovers insights and helps you unless the full potential of your data and that's what I do is comprehensive set off analysis. You can answer your advanced business question in just a few simple steps and the end speed of your time. Bring state. And with a new support for embrace, you can run sport like you on your data in your data warehouse and with spotted you monitor, you can monitor all the business metrics and not just died. We can also understand that teaching teaching drivers on those metrics on the platform of your choice. So with that, I'll hand over toe, you know. >>Thank you so much. Both of you That was fantastic. Um, I just love spot like, because it makes me look like much more of a rock star with data than I really am. So thank you guys for that fantastic presentation. Um, so we've got a couple of minutes for a couple of questions for you. The first one is for action. Um, once spot I Q generates a number of insights. Can you run spot I Q again on one of those insights? >>Yeah, As a philosophy off Spiric, you sport like you never takes the user to the dead end Spartak. You also transparently shares the calculation. So user can not only the keeper that on edit Understand how this product you inside has been calculated, but user can also run us for like you analysts is honest for data analysis as well. Which music? And continue to do not on the first level. Second level in the third level as well. >>That's cool. Thank you. Actually on then The next one is for because for spot ik monitor is it possible to edit the dimensions used for explaining the factors to change that was detected? >>Yes. It's an owner of the metric you can change the dimensions whenever you want and save them for everyone else. >>Okay, well, I think that's about all we've got time for in this session. So all that remains is for me to say a huge thank you to Because an Akshay Andi, we've got the last session of this track coming up in a few minutes. So grab a snack. Come right back and listen to an amazing customer story with Snowflake on Western Union, they're up next.

(upbeat music) >> Hi everyone, thank you for joining us at the Data Cloud Summit. The last couple of months have been an exciting time at Snowflake. And yet, what's even more compelling to all of us at Snowflake is what's ahead. Today I have the opportunity to share new product developments that will extend the reach and impact of our Data Cloud and improve the experience of Snowflake users. Our product strategy is focused on four major areas. First, Data Cloud content. In the Data Cloud silos are eliminated and our vision is to bring the world's data within reach of every organization. You'll hear about new data sets and data services available in our data marketplace and see how previous barriers to sourcing and unifying data are eliminated. Second, extensible data pipelines. As you gain frictionless access to a broader set of data through the Data Cloud, Snowflakes platform brings additional capabilities and extensibility to your data pipelines, simplifying data ingestion, and transformation. Third, data governance. The Data Cloud eliminates silos and breaks down barriers and in a world where data collaboration is the norm, the importance of data governance is ratified and elevated. We'll share new advancements to support how the world's most demanding organizations mobilize your data while maintaining high standards of compliance and governance. Finally, our fourth area focuses on platform performance and capabilities. We remain laser focused on continuing to lead with the most performant and capable data platform. We have some exciting news to share about the core engine of Snowflake. As always, we love showing you Snowflake in action, and we prepared some demos for you. Also, we'll keep coming back to the fact that one of the characteristics of Snowflake that we're proud as staff is that we offer a single platform from which you can operate all of your data workloads, across clouds and across regions, which workloads you may ask, specifically, data warehousing, data lake, data science, data engineering, data applications, and data sharing. Snowflake makes it possible to mobilize all your data in service of your business without the cost, complexity and overhead of managing multiple systems, tools and vendors. Let's dive in. As you heard from Frank, the Data Cloud offers a unique capability to connect organizations and create collaboration and innovation across industries fueled by data. The Snowflake data marketplace is the gateway to the Data Cloud, providing visibility for organizations to browse and discover data that can help them make better decisions. For data providers on the marketplace, there is a new opportunity to reach new customers, create new revenue streams, and radically decrease the effort and time to data delivery. Our marketplace dramatically reduces the friction of sharing and collaborating with data opening up new possibilities to all participants in the Data Cloud. We introduced the Snowflake data marketplace in 2019. And it is now home to over 100 data providers, with half of them having joined the marketplace in the last four months. Since our most recent product announcements in June, we have continued broadening the availability of the data marketplace, across regions and across clouds. Our data marketplace provides the opportunity for data providers to reach consumers across cloud and regional boundaries. A critical aspect of the Data Cloud is that we envisioned organizations collaborating not just in terms of data, but also data powered applications and services. Think of instances where a provider doesn't want to open access to the entirety of a data set, but wants to provide access to business logic that has access and leverages such data set. That is what we call data services. And we want Snowflake to be the platform of choice for developing discovering and consuming such rich building blocks. To see How the data marketplace comes to live, and in particular one of these data services, let's jump into a demo. For all of our demos today, we're going to put ourselves in the shoes of a fictional global insurance company. We've called it Insureco. Insurance is a data intensive and highly regulated industry. Having the right access control and insight from data is core to every insurance company's success. I'm going to turn it over to Prasanna to show how the Snowflake data marketplace can solve a data discoverability and access problem. >> Let's look at how Insureco can leverage data and data services from the Snowflake data marketplace and use it in conjunction with its own data in the Data Cloud to do three things, better detect fraudulent claims, arm its agents with the right information, and benchmark business health against competition. Let's start with detecting fraudulent claims. I'm an analyst in the Claims Department. I have auto claims data in my account. I can see there are 2000 auto claims, many of these submitted by auto body shops. I need to determine if they are valid and legitimate. In particular, could some of these be insurance fraud? By going to the Snowflake data marketplace where numerous data providers and data service providers can list their offerings, I find the quantifying data service. It uses a combination of external data sources and predictive risk typology models to inform the risk level of an organization. Quantifying external sources include sanctions and blacklists, negative news, social media, and real time search engine results. That's a wealth of data and models built on that data which we don't have internally. So I'd like to use Quantifind to determine a fraud risk score for each auto body shop that has submitted a claim. First, the Snowflake data marketplace made it really easy for me to discover a data service like this. Without the data marketplace, finding such a service would be a lengthy ad hoc process of doing web searches and asking around. Second, once I find Quantifind, I can use Quantifind service against my own data in three simple steps using data sharing. I create a table with the names and addresses of auto body shops that have submitted claims. I then share the table with Quantifind to start the risk assessment. Quantifind does the risk scoring and shares the data back with me. Quantifind uses external functions which we introduced in June to get results from their risk prediction models. Without Snowflake data sharing, we would have had to contact Quantifind to understand what format they wanted the data in, then extract this data into a file, FTP the file to Quantifind, wait for the results, then ingest the results back into our systems for them to be usable. Or I would have had to write code to call Quantifinds API. All of that would have taken days. In contrast, with data sharing, I can set this up in minutes. What's more, now that I have set this up, as new claims are added in the future, they will automatically leverage Quantifind's data service. I view the scores returned by Quantifind and see the two entities in my claims data have a high score for insurance fraud risk. I open up the link returned by Quantifind to read more, and find that this organization has been involved in an insurance crime ring. Looks like that is a claim that we won't be approving. Using the Quantifind data service through the Snowflake data marketplace gives me access to a risk scoring capability that we don't have in house without having to call custom APIs. For a provider like Quantifind this drives new leads and monetization opportunities. Now that I have identified potentially fraudulent claims, let's move on to the second part. I would like to share this fraud risk information with the agents who sold the corresponding policies. To do this, I need two things. First, I need to find the agents who sold these policies. Then I need to share with these agents the fraud risk information that we got from Quantifind. But I want to share it such that each agent only sees the fraud risk information corresponding to claims for policies that they wrote. To find agents who sold these policies, I need to look up our Salesforce data. I can find this easily within Insureco's internal data exchange. I see there's a listing with Salesforce data. Our sales Ops team has published this listing so I know it's our officially blessed data set, and I can immediately access it from my Snowflake account without copying any data or having to set up ETL. I can now join Salesforce data with my claims to identify the agents for the policies that were flagged to have fraudulent claims. I also have the Snowflake account information for each agent. Next, I create a secure view that joins on an entitlements table, such that each agent can only see the rows corresponding to policies that they have sold. I then share this directly with the agents. This share contains the secure view that I created with the names of the auto body shops, and the fraud risk identified by Quantifind. Finally, let's move on to the third and last part. Now that I have detected potentially fraudulent claims, I'm going to move on to building a dashboard that our executives have been asking for. They want to see how Insureco compares against other auto insurance companies on key metrics, like total claims paid out for the auto insurance line of business nationwide. I go to the Snowflake data marketplace and find SNL U.S. Insurance Statutory Data from SNP. This data is included with Insureco's existing subscription with SMP so when I request access to it, SMP can immediately share this data with me through Snowflake data sharing. I create a virtual database from the share, and I'm ready to query this data, no ETL needed. And since this is a virtual database, pointing to the original data in SNP Snowflake account, I have access to the latest data as it arrives in SNPs account. I see that the SNL U.S. Insurance Statutory Data from SNP has data on assets, premiums earned and claims paid out by each us insurance company in 2019. This data is broken up by line of business and geography and in many cases goes beyond the data that would be available from public financial filings. This is exactly the data I need. I identify a subset of comparable insurance companies whose net total assets are within 20% of Insureco's, and whose lines of business are similar to ours. I can now create a Snow site dashboard that compares Insureco against similar insurance companies on key metrics, like net earned premiums, and net claims paid out in 2019 for auto insurance. I can see that while we are below median our net earned premiums, we are doing better than our competition on total claims paid out in 2019, which could be a reflection of our improved claims handling and fraud detection. That's a good insight that I can share with our executives. In summary, the Data Cloud enabled me to do three key things. First, seamlessly fine data and data services that I need to do my job, be it an external data service like Quantifind and external data set from SNP or internal data from Insureco's data exchange. Second, get immediate live access to this data. And third, control and manage collaboration around this data. With Snowflake, I can mobilize data and data services across my business ecosystem in just minutes. >> Thank you Prasanna. Now I want to turn our focus to extensible data pipelines. We believe there are two different and important ways of making Snowflakes platform highly extensible. First, by enabling teams to leverage services or business logic that live outside of Snowflake interacting with data within Snowflake. We do this through a feature called external functions, a mechanism to conveniently bring data to where the computation is. We announced this feature for calling regional endpoints via AWS gateway in June, and it's currently available in public preview. We are also now in public preview supporting Azure API management and will soon support Google API gateway and AWS private endpoints. The second extensibility mechanism does the converse. It brings the computation to Snowflake to run closer to the data. We will do this by enabling the creation of functions and procedures in SQL, Java, Scala or Python ultimately providing choice based on the programming language preference for you or your organization. You will see Java, Scala and Python available through private and public previews in the future. The possibilities enabled by these extensibility features are broad and powerful. However, our commitment to being a great platform for data engineers, data scientists and developers goes far beyond programming language. Today, I am delighted to announce Snowpark a family of libraries that will bring a new experience to programming data in Snowflake. Snowpark enables you to write code directly against Snowflake in a way that is deeply integrated into the languages I mentioned earlier, using familiar concepts like DataFrames. But the most important aspect of Snowpark is that it has been designed and optimized to leverage the Snowflake engine with its main characteristics and benefits, performance, reliability, and scalability with near zero maintenance. Think of the power of a declarative SQL statements available through a well known API in Scala, Java or Python, all these against data governed in your core data platform. We believe Snowpark will be transformative for data programmability. I'd like to introduce Sri to showcase how our fictitious insurance company Insureco will be able to take advantage of the Snowpark API for data science workloads. >> Thanks Christian, hi, everyone? I'm Sri Chintala, a product manager at Snowflake focused on extensible data pipelines. And today, I'm very excited to show you a preview of Snowpark. In our first demo, we saw how Insureco could identify potentially fraudulent claims. Now, for all the valid claims InsureCo wants to ensure they're providing excellent customer service. To do that, they put in place a system to transcribe all of their customer calls, so they can look for patterns. A simple thing they'd like to do is detect the sentiment of each call so they can tell which calls were good and which were problematic. They can then better train their claim agents for challenging calls. Let's take a quick look at the work they've done so far. InsureCo's data science team use Snowflakes external functions to quickly and easily train a machine learning model in H2O AI. Snowflake has direct integrations with H2O and many other data science providers giving Insureco the flexibility to use a wide variety of data science libraries frameworks or tools to train their model. Now that the team has a custom trained sentiment model tailored to their specific claims data, let's see how a data engineer at Insureco can use Snowpark to build a data pipeline that scores customer call logs using the model hosted right inside of Snowflake. As you can see, we have the transcribed call logs stored in the customer call logs table inside Snowflake. Now, as a data engineer trained in Scala, and used to working with systems like Spark and Pandas, I want to use familiar programming concepts to build my pipeline. Snowpark solves for this by letting me use popular programming languages like Java or Scala. It also provides familiar concepts in APIs, such as the DataFrame abstraction, optimized to leverage and run natively on the Snowflake engine. So here I am in my ID, where I've written a simple scalar program using the Snowpark libraries. The first step in using the Snowpark API is establishing a session with Snowflake. I use the session builder object and specify the required details to connect. Now, I can create a DataFrame for the data in the transcripts column of the customer call logs table. As you can see, the Snowpark API provides native language constructs for data manipulation. Here, I use the Select method provided by the API to specify the column names to return rather than writing select transcripts as a string. By using the native language constructs provided by the API, I benefit from features like IntelliSense and type checking. Here you can see some of the other common methods that the DataFrame class offers like filters like join and others. Next, I define a get sentiment user defined function that will return a sentiment score for an input string by using our pre trained H2O model. From the UDF, we call the score method that initializes and runs the sentiment model. I've built this helper into a Java file, which along with the model object and license are added as dependencies that Snowpark will send to Snowflake for execution. As a developer, this is all programming that I'm familiar with. We can now call our get sentiment function on the transcripts column of the DataFrame and right back the results of the score transcripts to a new target table. Let's run this code and switch over to Snowflake to see the score data and also all the work that Snowpark has done for us on the back end. If I do a select star from scored logs, we can see the sentiment score of each call right alongside the transcript. With Snowpark all the logic in my program is pushed down into Snowflake. I can see in the query history that Snowpark has created a temporary Java function to host the pre trained H20 model, and that the model is running right in my Snowflake warehouse. Snowpark has allowed us to do something completely new in Snowflake. Let's recap what we saw. With Snowpark, Insureco was able to use their preferred programming language, Scala and use the familiar DataFrame constructs to score data using a machine learning model. With support for Java UDFs, they were able to run a train model natively within Snowflake. And finally, we saw how Snowpark executed computationally intensive data science workloads right within Snowflake. This simplifies Insureco's data pipeline architecture, as it reduces the number of additional systems they have to manage. We hope that extensibility with Scala, Java and Snowpark will enable our users to work with Snowflake in their preferred way while keeping the architecture simple. We are very excited to see how you use Snowpark to extend your data pipelines. Thank you for watching and with that back to you, Christian. >> Thank you Sri. You saw how Sri could utilize Snowpark to efficiently perform advanced sentiment analysis. But of course, if this use case was important to your business, you don't want to fully automate this pipeline and analysis. Imagine being able to do all of the following in Snowflake, your pipeline could start far upstream of what you saw in the demo. By storing your actual customer care call recordings in Snowflake, you may notice that this is new for Snowflake. We'll come back to the idea of storing unstructured data in Snowflake at the end of my talk today. Once you have the data in Snowflake, you can use our streams and past capabilities to call an external function to transcribe these files. To simplify this flow even further, we plan to introduce a serverless execution model for tasks where Snowflake can automatically size and manage resources for you. After this step, you can use the same serverless task to execute sentiment scoring of your transcript as shown in the demo with incremental processing as each transcript is created. Finally, you can surface the sentiment score either via snow side, or through any tool you use to share insights throughout your organization. In this example, you see data being transformed from a raw asset into a higher level of information that can drive business action, all fully automated all in Snowflake. Turning back to Insureco, you know how important data governance is for any major enterprise but particularly for one in this industry. Insurance companies manage highly sensitive data about their customers, and have some of the strictest requirements for storing and tracking such data, as well as managing and governing it. At Snowflake, we think about governance as the ability to know your data, manage your data and collaborate with confidence. As you saw in our first demo, the Data Cloud enables seamless collaboration, control and access to data via the Snowflake data marketplace. And companies may set up their own data exchanges to create similar collaboration and control across their ecosystems. In future releases, we expect to deliver enhancements that create more visibility into who has access to what data and provide usage information of that data. Today, we are announcing a new capability to help Snowflake users better know and organize your data. This is our new tagging framework. Tagging in Snowflake will allow user defined metadata to be attached to a variety of objects. We built a broad and robust framework with powerful implications. Think of the ability to annotate warehouses with cost center information for tracking or think of annotating tables and columns with sensitivity classifications. Our tagging capability will enable the creation of companies specific business annotations for objects in Snowflakes platform. Another key aspect of data governance in Snowflake is our policy based framework where you specify what you want to be true about your data, and Snowflake enforces those policies. We announced one such policy earlier this year, our dynamic data masking capability, which is now available in public preview. Today, we are announcing a great complimentary a policy to achieve row level security to see how role level security can enhance InsureCo's ability to govern and secure data. I'll hand it over to Artin for a demo. >> Hello, I'm Martin Avanes, Director of Product Management for Snowflake. As Christian has already mentioned, the rise of the Data Cloud greatly accelerates the ability to access and share diverse data leading to greater data collaboration across teams and organizations. Controlling data access with ease and ensuring compliance at the same time is top of mind for users. Today, I'm thrilled to announce our new row access policies that will allow users to define various rules for accessing data in the Data Cloud. Let's check back in with Insureco to see some of these in action and highlight how those work with other existing policies one can define in Snowflake. Because Insureco is a multinational company, it has to take extra measures to ensure data across geographic boundaries is protected to meet a wide range of compliance requirements. The Insureco team has been asked to segment what data sales team members have access to based on where they are regionally. In order to make this possible, they will use Snowflakes row access policies to implement row level security. We are going to apply policies for three Insureco's sales team members with different roles. Alice, an executive must be able to view sales data from both North America and Europe. Alex in North America sales manager will be limited to access sales data from North America only. And Jordan, a Europe sales manager will be limited to access sales data from Europe only. As a first step, the security administrator needs to create a lookup table that will be used to determine which data is accessible based on each role. As you can see, the lookup table has the row and their associated region, both of which will be used to apply policies that we will now create. Row access policies are implemented using standard SQL syntax to make it easy for administrators to create policies like the one our administrators looking to implement. And similar to masking policies, row access policies are leveraging our flexible and expressive policy language. In this demo, our admin users to create a row access policy that uses the row and region of a user to determine what row level data they have access to when queries are executed. When users queries are executed against the table protected by such a row access policy, Snowflakes query engine will dynamically generate and apply the corresponding predicate to filter out rows the user is not supposed to see. With the policy now created, let's log in as our Sales Users and see if it worked. Recall that as a sales executive, Alice should have the ability to see all rows from North America and Europe. Sure enough, when she runs her query, she can see all rows so we know the policy is working for her. You may also have noticed that some columns are showing masked data. That's because our administrator's also using our previously announced data masking capabilities to protect these data attributes for everyone in sales. When we look at our other users, we should notice that the same columns are also masked for them. As you see, you can easily combine masking and row access policies on the same data sets. Now let's look at Alex, our North American sales manager. Alex runs to st Korea's Alice, row access policies leverage the lookup table to dynamically generate the corresponding predicates for this query. The result is we see that only the data for North America is visible. Notice too that the same columns are still masked. Finally, let's try Jordan, our European sales manager. Jordan runs the query and the result is only the data for Europe with the same columns also masked. And you reintroduced masking policies, today you saw row access policies in action. And similar to our masking policies, row access policies in Snowflake will be accepted Hands of capability integrated seamlessly across all of Snowflake everywhere you expect it to work it does. If you're accessing data stored in external tables, semi structured JSON data, or building data pipelines via streams or plan to leverage Snowflakes data sharing functionality, you will be able to implement complex row access policies for all these diverse use cases and workloads within Snowflake. And with Snowflakes unique replication feature, you can instantly apply these new policies consistently to all of your Snowflake accounts, ensuring governance across regions and even across different clouds. In the future, we plan to demonstrate how to combine our new tagging capabilities with Snowflakes policies, allowing advanced audit and enforcing those policies with ease. And with that, let's pass it back over to Christian. >> Thank you Artin. We look forward to making this new tagging and row level security capabilities available in private preview in the coming months. One last note on the broad area of data governance. A big aspect of the Data Cloud is the mobilization of data to be used across organizations. At the same time, privacy is an important consideration to ensure the protection of sensitive, personal or potentially identifying information. We're working on a set of product capabilities to simplify compliance with privacy related regulatory requirements, and simplify the process of collaborating with data while preserving privacy. Earlier this year, Snowflake acquired a company called Crypto Numerix to accelerate our efforts on this front, including the identification and anonymization of sensitive data. We look forward to sharing more details in the future. We've just shown you three demos of new and exciting ways to use Snowflake. However, I want to also remind you that our commitment to the core platform has never been greater. As you move workloads on to Snowflake, we know you expect exceptional price performance and continued delivery of new capabilities that benefit every workload. On price performance, we continue to drive performance improvements throughout the platform. Let me give you an example comparing an identical set of customers submitted queries that ran both in August of 2019, and August of 2020. If I look at the set of queries that took more than one second to compile 72% of those improved by at least 50%. When we make these improvements, execution time goes down. And by implication, the required compute time is also reduced. Based on our pricing model to charge for what you use, performance improvements not only deliver faster insights, but also translate into cost savings for you. In addition, we have two new major announcements on performance to share today. First, we announced our search optimization service during our June event. This service currently in public preview can be enabled on a table by table basis, and is able to dramatically accelerate lookup queries on any column, particularly those not used as clustering columns. We initially support equality comparisons only, and today we're announcing expanded support for searches in values, such as pattern matching within strings. This will unlock a number of additional use cases such as analytics on logs data for performance or security purposes. This expanded support is currently being validated by a few customers in private preview, and will be broadly available in the future. Second, I'd like to introduce a new service that will be in private preview in a future release. The query acceleration service. This new feature will automatically identify and scale out parts of a query that could benefit from additional resources and parallelization. This means that you will be able to realize dramatic improvements in performance. This is especially impactful for data science and other scan intensive workloads. Using this feature is pretty simple. You define a maximum amount of additional resources that can be recruited by a warehouse for acceleration, and the service decides when it would be beneficial to use them. Given enough resources, a query over a massive data set can see orders of magnitude performance improvement compared to the same query without acceleration enabled. In our own usage of Snowflake, we saw a common query go 15 times faster without changing the warehouse size. All of these performance enhancements are extremely exciting, and you will see continued improvements in the future. We love to innovate and continuously raise the bar on what's possible. More important, we love seeing our customers adopt and benefit from our new capabilities. In June, we announced a number of previews, and we continue to roll those features out and see tremendous adoption, even before reaching general availability. Two have those announcements were the introduction of our geospatial support and policies for dynamic data masking. Both of these features are currently in use by hundreds of customers. The number of tables using our new geography data type recently crossed the hundred thousand mark, and the number of columns with masking policies also recently crossed the same hundred thousand mark. This momentum and level of adoption since our announcements in June is phenomenal. I have one last announcement to highlight today. In 2014, Snowflake transformed the world of data management and analytics by providing a single platform with first class support for both structured and semi structured data. Today, we are announcing that Snowflake will be adding support for unstructured data on that same platform. Think of the abilities of Snowflake used to store access and share files. As an example, would you like to leverage the power of SQL to reason through a set of image files. We have a few customers as early adopters and we'll provide additional details in the future. With this, you will be able to leverage Snowflake to mobilize all your data in the Data Cloud. Our customers rely on Snowflake as the data platform for every part of their business. However, the vision and potential of Snowflake is actually much bigger than the four walls of any organization. Snowflake has created a Data Cloud a data connected network with a vision where any Snowflake customer can leverage and mobilize the world's data. Whether it's data sets, or data services from traditional data providers for SaaS vendors, our marketplace creates opportunities for you and raises the bar in terms of what is possible. As examples, you can unify data across your supply chain to accelerate your time and quality to market. You can build entirely new revenue streams, or collaborate with a consortium on data for good. The possibilities are endless. Every company has the opportunity to gain richer insights, build greater products and deliver better services by reaching beyond the data that he owns. Our vision is to enable every company to leverage the world's data through seamless and governing access. Snowflake is your window into this data network into this broader opportunity. Welcome to the Data Cloud. (upbeat music)

>>Around the globe presenting accelerating automation with Deb brought to you by Cisco >>We're back. This is Dave Vellante and TKK Anini is here. He's a distinguished engineer at Cisco TK, my friend. Good to see you again. >>How are you? >>Good. I mean, you and I were in Barcelona in January and, you know, we knew we saw this thing coming, but we didn't see it coming this way. Did we? >>No, that no one did, but yeah, it, uh, that was right before everything happened. >>Well, it's weird. Right? I mean, we were, you know, we, we, it was in the back of our minds in January, we sort of had Barcelona's hasn't really been hit yet. It looked like it was really isolated in China, but, uh, but wow, what a change and I guess, I guess I'd say I'd start with the, we're seeing really a secular change in, in your space and security identity, access management, cloud security, endpoint security. I mean, all of a sudden these things have exploded as the work from home pivot has occurred. Uh, and, and it feels like these changes are permanent or semi-permanent what are you seeing out there? >>Yeah, I don't, I don't think anybody thinks the world's going to go back the way it was. Um, to some degree it's, it's changed forever. Um, you know, I, I, I do a lot of my work remotely. Um, and, and so, you know, being a remote worker, isn't such a big deal for me, but for some, it was a huge impact. And like I said, you know, um, remote work, remote education, you know, everybody's on the opposite side of a computer. And so the digital infrastructure has just become a lot more important to protect. And the integrity of it essentially is almost our own integrity these days. >>Yeah. And when you see that, you know, that work from home pivot, I mean, you know, our estimates are, are along with our partner DTR about 16% of the workforce was at home working from home prior to COVID and now it's, you know, North of 70% plus, and that's going to come down maybe a little bit over the next, next six months. We'll see what happens with the fall surge, but what people essentially accept, expect that to, you know, at least double that 16%, you know, going forward indefinitely. So what does that, what kind of pressure does that put on the security infrastructure and how, how organizations are approaching security? >>Yeah, I just think, uh, from a mindset standpoint, you know, what was optional, uh, maybe, um, last year, uh, is no longer optional and I don't think it's going to go back. Um, I think, I think a lot of people, uh, have changed the way, you know, they live and the way they work. Um, and they're doing it in ways, hopefully that, you know, in some cases, uh, yield more productivity, um, again, um, you know, usually with technology that's severely effective, it doesn't pick sides. So the security slant to it is it frankly works just as well for the bad guys. And so that's, that's the balance we need to keep, which is we need to be extra diligent, uh, on how we go about securing infrastructure, uh, how we go about securing even our social channels, because remember all our social channels now are digital. So that's, that's become the new norm. >>No, you've helped me understand over the years. I remember a line you shared with me in the cube one time is that the adversary is highly capable, is sort of the phrase that you used. And, and essentially the way you describe it, as you know, your job as a security practitioner is to decrease their, the bad guy's return on investment, you know, increase their costs, increase the numerator. But as, as work shifts from home, I'm in my house, you know, my wifi in my, you know, router with my dog's name is the password. You know, it's much, much harder for me to, to increase that denominator at home. So can you help? >>Yeah. I mean, it's, it is, it is truly, um, when you think, when you get into the mind of the adversary and, and, uh, you know, the cyber crime out there, they're honestly just like any other business they're trying to, you know, operate with high margin. And so if you can get there, if you can get in there and erode their margin, they'll frankly go find something else to do. Um, and, and again, you know, you know, the shift we experience day to day is it's not just our kids are online in school and, uh, our work is online, but all the groceries we order, um, you know, this Thanksgiving and holiday season, uh, a lot more online shopping is going to take place. So, you know, everything's gone digital. And so the question is, you know, how, how do we up our game there so that, um, we can go about our business, uh, effectively and make it very expensive for the adversary to operate, uh, and take care of their business. Cause it's nasty stuff. >>I want to ask you about automation, you know, generally, and then specifically how it applies to security. So we, I mean, we certainly saw the ascendancy of the hyperscalers and of course they really attacked the it labor problem. We learned a lot from that and an it organizations have applied much of that thinking. And the it's critical at scale. I mean, you just can't scale humans at the pace, the technology scales today, how does that apply to security and specifically, how is automation affecting a security? >>Yeah, it's, it's, it's the topic these days. Um, you know, businesses, I think, realize that they can't continue to grow at human scale. And so the reason why automation and things like AI and machine learning have a lot of value is because everyone's trying to expand, uh, and operate at machine scale. Now, I mean that for, for businesses, I mean that for, you know, education and everything else now, so are the adversaries, right? So it's expensive for them to operate at Cuban scale and they are going to machine scale, going to machine scale, uh, a necessity is that you're going to have to harness some level of automation, have the machines, uh, work on your behalf, have the machines carry your intent. Um, and when you do that, um, you can do it safely or you could do it dangerously. And that that's really kind of your choice. Um, you know, just because you can automate something doesn't mean you should, um, you, you wanna make sure that frankly, the adversary can't get in there and use that automation on their behalf. So it's, it's a tricky thing because, you know, if when you take the phrase, you know, uh, how do we, how do we automate security? Well, you actually have to take care of, of securing the automation first. >>Yeah. We talked about this in Barcelona, where you were explaining that, you know, the, the bad guys, the adversaries are essentially, you know, weaponizing using your own tooling, which makes them appear safe because it's, they're hiding in plain sight, right? >>Yeah. Well, there's, they're clever, uh, giving them that, um, you know, there's this phrase that they, they always talk about called living off the land. Um, there's no sense in them coming into your network and bringing their tools and, uh, and being detective, you know, if they can use the tools that's already there, then they have, uh, a higher degree of, of evading, uh, your protection. If they can pose as Alice or Bob, who's already been credentialed and move around your network, then they're moving around the network as Alice or Bob. They're not marked as the adversary. So again, you know, having the detection methods available to find their behavioral anomalies and things like that become a paramount, but it also you having the automation to contain them, to eradicate them, to, you know, minimize their effectiveness, um, without it, I mean, ideally without human interaction, cause you, you just, can you move faster, you move quicker. Um, and I see that with an asterisk because, um, if done wrong, frankly, um, you're just making their job more effective. >>I wonder if we could talk about the market a little bit, uh, it's I'm in the security space, cybersecurity 80 plus billion, which by the way, is just a little infant testable component of our GDP. So we're not spending nearly enough to protect that, that massive, uh, GDP, but guys, I wonder if you could bring up the chart because when you talk to CSOs and you ask them, what's your, what's your biggest challenge? They'll say lack of talent. And, and so what this chart shows is from ETR, our, our, our survey partner and on the vertical axis is net score. And that's an indication of spending momentum on the horizontal axis is market share, which is a measure of presence, a pervasiveness, if you will, inside the data sets. And so there's a couple of key points here. I wanted to put forth to our audience and then get your reactions. >>So you can see Cisco, I highlighted in red Cisco's business and security is very, very strong. We see it every quarter. It's a growth area that Chuck Robbins talks about on the, on the conference call. And so you can see on the horizontal axis, you've got a big presence in the data set. I mean, Microsoft is out there, but they're everywhere, but you're right there, uh, in that, in that dataset. And then you've got for such a large presence, you've got a lot of momentum in the marketplace, so that's very impressive. But the other point here is you've got this huge buffet of options. There's just a zillion vendors here. And that just adds to the complexity. This is of course only a subset of what's in the security space. You know, the people who answered for the survey. So my question is how can Cisco help simplify this picture? Is it automation? Is it, you know, you guys have done some really interesting tuck in acquisitions and you're bringing that integration together. Can you talk about that a little bit? >>Yeah. I mean, that's an impressive chart. I mean, when you look to the left there it's, um, I had a customer tell me once that, you know, I, I came to this trade show looking for transportation and these people are trying to sell me car parts. Um, that's the frustration customers have, you know, and I think what Cisco has done really well is to really focus on outcomes. Um, what is the customer outcome? Cause ultimately that's, that is what the customer wants. You know, there might be a few steps to get to that outcome, but the closest you can closer, you can get to delivering outcomes for the customer, the better you are. And I think, I think security in general has just year over year been just written with, um, you need to be an expert. Um, you need to buy all these parts and put it together yourself. And I think, I think those days are behind us, but particularly as, as security becomes more pervasive and we're, you know, we're selling to the business, we're not selling to the, you know, t-shirt wearing hacker anymore. >>Yeah. So, well, well, how does cloud fit in here? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about cloud people that God put my data in the cloud I'm safe, but you know, of course we know it's a shared responsibility model. So I'm interested in your, your thoughts on that. Is it really, is it a sense of complacency? A lot of the cloud vendors, by the way, say, Oh, the state of security is great in the cloud. Whereas many of us out there saying, wow, it's, it's not so great. Uh, so what, what are your thoughts on that, that whole narrative and what Cisco's play in cloud? >>I think cloud, um, when you look at the services that are delivered via the cloud, you see that exact pattern, which is you see customers paying for the outcome or as close to the outcome as possible. Um, you know, no data center required, no distract required, you just get storage, you know, it's, it's, it's all of those things that are again, closer to the outcome. I think the thing that interests me about cloud two is it's really been, it's really punctuated the way we go about building systems. Um, again at machine scale. So, you know, before, when I write code and I think about, Oh, what computers are gonna run on or, you know, what servers are going to is you're going to run on those. Those thoughts never crossed my mind anymore. You know, I'm modeling the intent of what the service should do and the machines then figure it out. So, you know, for instance, on Tuesday, if the entire internet shows up, uh, the, the system works without fail. And if on Wednesday, if only North America shows up, you know, so, but, but, but there's no way you could staff that, right. There's just no human scale approach that gets you there. And that's, that's the beauty of all of this cloud stuff is, um, it really is, uh, the next level of how we do computer science. >>So you're talking about infrastructure as code and that applies to security as code. That's what, you know, dev net is really all about. I've said many times, I think Cisco of the, the large established enterprise companies is one of the few, if not the only, that really has figured out, you know, that developer angle, because it's practical, you're not trying to force your way into developers, but, you know, I wonder if you could, you could talk a little bit about that trend and where you see it going. >>Yeah, no, that is, that is truly the trend. Every time I walk into dev net, um, the big halls at Cisco live, it is Cisco as code. Um, everything about Cisco is being presented through an API. It is automation ready. And, and frankly, that is, um, that is the, the love language of cloud. Um, it's, it's machines, it's the machines talking to machines in very effective ways. So, uh, you know, it is the, the, uh, I think, I think necessary, maybe not sufficient but necessary for, um, you know, doing all the machine scale stuff. What what's also necessary, uh, is to, um, to secure if infrastructure is code therefore, um, what, what secure, uh, what security methodologies do we have today that we use to secure code? While we, we have automated testing, we have threat modeling, right? Those things actually have to be now applied to infrastructure. So then when I, when I talk about how do you do, uh, automation securely, you do it the same way you secure your code, you test it, you, you threaten model, you, you, you say, you know, can my adversary, uh, exhibit something here that drives the automation in a way that I didn't intend it to go. Um, so all of those practices apply. It's just, everything is code these days. >>I've often said that security and privacy are sort of two sides of the same coin. And I want to ask you a question and it's really, you know, to me, it's not necessarily Cisco and company like companies like Cisco's responsibility, but I wonder if there's a way in which you can help. And of course, there's this Netflix documentary circling around the social dilemma. I don't know if you have a chance to see it, but basically dramatizes the way in which companies are appropriating our data to sell us ads and, you know, creating our own little set of facts, et cetera. And that comes down to sort of how we think about privacy and admin. It's good from the standpoint of awareness, you know, you may or may not care if you're a social media user. I love tick-tock, I don't care, but, but, but they, they sort of laid out. This is pretty scary scenario with a lot of the inventors of those technologies. You have any thoughts on that and you'll consist go play a role there in terms of protecting our privacy. I mean, beyond GDPR and California, consumer privacy act, um, what do you think? >>Yeah. Um, uh, I'll give you my, you know, my humble opinion is you, you fix social problems with social tools, you fixed technology problems with technology tools. Um, I think there is a social problem, um, uh, that needs to be rectified the, you know, um, we, we, weren't built as human beings to live and interact with an environment that agrees with us all the time. It's just pretty wrong. So yeah, that, that, that, um, that series that really kind of wake up a lot of people it is, is, you know, it's probably every day I hear somebody asked me if I saw it. Um, but I do think it also, you know, with that level of awareness, I think we, we overcome it or we compensate by what number one, just being aware that it's happening. Um, number two, you know, how you go about solving it, I think maybe come down to an individual or even a community's, um, solution and what might be right for one community might be, you know, not the same for the other. So you have to be respectful in that manner. >>Yeah. So it's, it's, it's almost, I think if I could, you know, play back, what I heard is, is yeah. Technology, you know, maybe got us into this problem, but technology alone is not going to get us out of the problem. It's not like some magic AI bot is going to solve this. It's got to be, you know, society has to really, really take this on as your, your premise. >>When I, when I first started, um, playing online games, I'm going back to the text based adventure stuff, like muds and moves. I did a talk at, at MIT one time and, um, this old curmudgeon in the back of the room, um, we were talking about democracy and we were talking about, you know, the social processes that we had modeled in our game and this and that. And this guy just gave us the SmackDown. He basically walked up to the front of the room and said, you know, all you techies, you judge efficiency by how long it takes. He says, democracy is a completely the opposite, which is you need to sleep on it. In fact, you shouldn't be scared if somebody can decide in a minute, what is good for the community? It is two weeks later, they probably have a better idea of what's good for the community. So it almost has the opposite dynamic. And that was super interesting to me. >>That's really interesting, you know, you read the, like the, the Lincoln historians and he was criticized in the day for having taken so long, you know, to make certain decisions, but, you know, ultimately when he acted acted with, with confidence. Um, so to that point, but, um, so what, what else are you working on these days that, uh, that are, that is interesting that maybe you want to share with our audience? Anything that's really super exciting for you or you, >>Yeah. You know, generally speaking, I'm trying to try and make it a little harder for the bad guys to operate. I guess that's a general theme making it simpler for the common person to use, uh, tools. Um, again, you know, it, all of these security tools, no matter how fancy it is, it's not that we're losing the complexity, it's that we're moving the complexity away from the user so that they can thrive at human scale. And we can do things at machine scale and kind of working those two together is, is sort of the, the magic recipe is, is not easy, but, um, but it is, it is fun. So that's, that's what keeps me engaged. I'm definitely >>Seeing, I wonder if you see it as just sort of a, obviously a heightened organization awareness, but I'm also seeing shifts in the organizational structures. You know, the, you know, it used to be a sec ops team and an Island. Okay, it's your problem? You know, the, the, the CSO cannot report into the, to the CIO because that's like the Fox in the hen house, a lot of those structures are, are, are changing. It seems, and be becoming this responsibility is coming much more ubiquitous across the organization. What are you seeing there and what are you? >>Yeah, no, and it's so familiar to me because, you know, um, I started out as a musician. So, you know, bands bands are a great analogy. You know, you play bass, I big guitar. You know, somebody else plays drums, everybody knows their role and you create something that's larger than, you know, the sum of all parts. And so that, that analogy I think, is coming to, you know, we, we saw it sort of with dev ops where, you know, the developer, doesn't just throw their coat over the wall and it's somebody else's problem. They move together as a band. And, and that's what I think, um, organizations are seeing is that, you know, why, why stop there? Why not include marketing? Why not include sales? Why don't we move together as a business? Not just here's the product and here's the rest of the business. That's, that's, that's pretty awesome. Um, I think, uh, we see a lot of those patterns, uh, particularly for the highly high performance businesses. >>You know, in fact, it's interesting you for great analogy, by the way. And you actually see in that within Cisco, you're seeing sort of a, and I know sometimes you guys don't like to talk about the plumbing, but I think it matters. I mean, you've got a leadership structure now. I I've talked to many of them. They seem to really be more focused on how they're connect, connecting, you know, across organizations. And it's increasingly critical in this world of, you know, of silo busters, isn't it? >>Yeah, no, I mean, you almost, as, as you move further and further away, you know, you can see how ridiculous it was before it would be like acquiring a band and say, okay, all your guitar players go over here. All your bass Blair is over there. I'm like what happened to the band? So that's, that's what I'm talking about is, you know, moving all of those disciplines, moving together, um, and servicing the same backlog and, and, and achieving the same successes together is just so awesome. >>Well, I always, I always feel better after talking to you. You know, I remember I remember art. Coviello used to put out his, his letter every year and I was reading. I'd get depressed. We spend all this money now we're less secure. But when I talked to you TK, I feel like much more optimistic. So I really appreciate the time you spend on the cube. It's, it's awesome to have you as a guest. >>I love these, I love >>Things. Thanks for inviting me and I miss you. I, you know, hopefully, you know, next year we can get together at some of the Cisco shows or other shows, but be well and stay weird. Uh, like the sign says to get Kenny, thanks so much for coming to the queue. We, uh, we really appreciate it. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante. We break back with our next guest, this short break.

>>Hello everyone. This is Dave Vellante, and I want to welcome you to the cubes presentation of accelerating automation with dev net in this special program, we're going to explore how to accelerate digital transformation and how the global pandemic is changing the way we work and the kinds of work that we do, the cube has pulled together experts from Cisco dev net. Now dev net is essentially Cisco as code. I've said many times in the cube, but in my opinion, it's the most impressive initiative coming out of any established enterprise infrastructure company. What Cisco has done brilliantly with dev net is to create an API economy by leveraging its large infrastructure portfolio and its ecosystem. But the linchpin of dev net is the army of trained Cisco engineers, including those with the elite CC I E designation. Now dev net was conceived to train people on how to code infrastructure and develop applications in integrations. It's a platform to create new value and automation is a key to that. Creativity. Now let's kick things off with the architect of dev net senior vice president in general manager of Cisco's dev net and CX ecosystem success. Susie, we roam around the globe presenting accelerating automation with damnit brought to you by Cisco. >>Hello and welcome to the cube. I'm Sean for a year host. We've got a great conversation, a virtual event, accelerating automation with dev net, Cisco dev net. And of course we got the Cisco brain trust here, our cube alumni, Susie wee vice president, senior vice president GM, and also CTO of Cisco dev net and ecosystem success CX all that great stuff. Many Wade Lee, who's the director, senior director of dev net certifications, Eric field, director of developer advocacy, Susie Mandy, Eric. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you, John. So we're not in first. We don't, can't be at the dev net zone. We can't be on site doing dev net creative, all the great stuff we've been doing over the past few years where virtual the cube virtual. Thanks for coming on. Uh, Susie, I gotta ask you because you know, we've been talking years ago when you started this mission and just the success you've had has been awesome, but dev net create has brought on a whole nother connective tissue to the dev net community. This is what this ties into the theme of accelerating automation with dev net, because you said to me, I think four years ago, everything should be a service or X AAS as it's called and automation plays a critical role. Um, could you please share your vision because this is really important and still only five to 10% of the enterprises have containerized things. So there's a huge growth curve coming with developing and programmability. What's your, what's your vision? >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what we know is that as more and more businesses are >>Coming online is, I mean, they're all online, but as they're growing into the cloud is they're growing in new areas. As we're dealing with security is everyone's dealing with the pandemic. There's so many things going on. Uh, but what happens is there's an infrastructure that all of this is built on and that infrastructure has networking. It has security, it has all of your compute and everything that's in there. And what matters is how can you take a business application and tie it to that infrastructure? How can you take, you know, customer data? How can you take business applications? How can you connect up the world securely and then be able to, you know, really satisfy everything that businesses need. And in order to do that, you know, the whole new tool that we've always talked about is that the network is programmable. The infrastructure is programmable and you don't need just apps riding on top, but now they get to use all of that power of the infrastructure to perform even better. And in order to get there, what you need to do is automate everything. You can't configure networks manually. You can't be manually figuring out policies, but you want to use that agile infrastructure in which you can really use automation. You can rise to higher level business processes and tie all of that up and down the staff by leveraging automation. >>You know, I remember a few years ago when dev net created for start a, I interviewed Todd Nightingale and we were talking about Meraki, you know, not to get in the weeds, but you know, switches and hubs and wireless. But if you look at what we were talking about, then this is kind of what's going on now. And we were just recently, I think our last physical event was a Cisco, um, uh, Europe in Barcelona before all the COVID hit. And you had this massive cloud surgeon scale happening going on, right when the pandemic hit. And even now more than ever the cloud scale, the modern apps, the momentum hasn't stopped because there's more pressure now to continue addressing more innovation at scale because the pressure to do that, um, cause the business stay alive. And to get your thoughts on, um, what's going on in your world because you were there in person now we're six months in scale is huge. >>We are. Yeah, absolutely. And what happened is as all of our customers, as businesses around the world, as we ourselves all dealt with, how do we run a business from home? You know, how do we keep people safe? How do we keep people at home and how do we work? And then it turns out, you know, business keeps rolling, but we've had to automate even more because you have to go home and then figure out how from home, can I make sure that my it infrastructure is automated out from home? Can I make sure that every employee is out there and working safely and securely, you know, things like call center workers, which had to go into physical locations and be in kind of, you know, just, you know, blocked off rooms to really be secure with their company's information. They had to work from home. >>So we had to extend business applications to people's homes, uh, in countries like, you know, well around the world, but also in India where it was actually not, you know, not, they wouldn't let, they didn't have rules to let people work from home in these areas. So then what had to do was automate everything and make sure that we could administer, you know, all of our customers could administer these systems from home. So that put extra stress on automation. It put extra stress on our customer's digital transformation and it just forced them to, you know, automate digitally, transform quicker. And they had to, because you couldn't just go into a server room and tweak your servers, you had to figure out how to automate all of that. And we're still all in that environment today. >>Now one of the hottest trends before the pandemic was observability, uh, Coobernetti's serve, uh, microservices. So those things, again, all dev ops and, you know, have you guys got some acquisitions, you about thousand eyes? Um, um, you've got a new one you just bought, um, recently port shift to raise the game in security Cooper and all these microservices. So observability super hot, but then people go work at home. As you mentioned, how do you observe, what are you observing? The network is under a huge pressure. I mean, it's crashing on people's zooms and WebExes and, uh, education, huge amount of network pressure. How are people adapting to this and the app side? How are you guys looking at the what's being programmed? What are some of the things that you're seeing with use cases around this program? Ability, challenge and observability challenges. It's a huge deal. >>Yeah, absolutely. And, um, you know, going back to Todd Nightingale, right. You know, back when we talked to Todd before he had Meraki and he had designed this simplicity, this ease of use this cloud managed, you know, doing everything from one central place and now he has Cisco's entire enterprise and cloud business. So he is now applying that at that bigger, um, at that bigger scale for Cisco and for our customers. And he is building in the observability and the dashboards and the automation and the API APIs into all of it. Um, but when we take a look at what our customers needed is again, they had to build it all in. Um, they have to build in and what happened was how your network was doing, how secure your infrastructure was, how well you could enable people to work from home and how well you could reach customers. >>All of that used to be an it conversation. It became a CEO and a board level conversation. So all of a sudden CEOs were actually calling on the heads of it and the CIO and saying, you know, how's our VPN connectivity is everybody working from home? How many people are connected and able to work and what's their productivity. So all of a sudden, all these things that were really infrastructure, it stuff became a board level conversation. And, you know, once again, at first, everybody was panicked and just figuring out how to get people working. But now what we've seen in all of our customers is that they are now building in automation and digital transformation and these architectures, and that gives them a chance to build in that observability, you know, looking for those events, the dashboards, you know, so it really has, has been fantastic to see what our customers are doing and what our partners are doing to really rise to that next level. >>Cause you know, you got to go, but real quick, um, describe what accelerating automation with dev net means. Well, you've >>Been falling, you know, we've been working together on dev net and the vision of the infrastructure programmability and everything for quite some time. And the thing that's really happened is yes, you need to automate, but yes, it takes people to do that and you need the right skill sets and the programmability. So a networker can't be a networker. A networker has to be a network automation developer. And so it is about people and it is about bringing infrastructure expertise together with software expertise and letting people rumblings are definite community has risen to this challenge. Um, people have jumped in, they've gotten their certifications. We have thousands of people getting certified. Uh, you know, we have, you know, Cisco getting certified. We have individuals, we have partners, you know, they're just really rising to the occasion. So accelerate, accelerating automation while it is about going digital. It's also about people rising to the level of, you know, being able to put infrastructure and software expertise together to enable this next chapter of business applications of, you know, cloud directed businesses and cloud growth. So it actually is about people just as much as it is about automation and technology. >>We got dev net created right around the corner, virtual unfortunate won't be in person, but we'll be virtual. Susie. Thank you for your time. We're going to dig into those people, challenges with Mandy and Eric. Thank you for coming on. I know you've got to go, but stay with us. We're going to dig in with Mandy and Eric. >>Thanks. Thank you so much. Have fun. Thanks John. >>Okay. Mandy, you heard, uh, Susie is about people and one of the things that's close to your heart and you've been driving is, uh, as senior director of dev net certifications, um, is getting people leveled up. I mean the demand for skills, cybersecurity network, programmability automation, network design solution architect, cloud multicloud design. These are new skills that are needed. Can you give us the update on what you're doing to help people get into the acceleration of automation game? >>Oh yes, absolutely. The, you know, what we've been seeing is a lot of those business drivers that Susie was mentioning, those are, what's accelerating a lot of the technology changes and that's creating new job roles or new needs on existing job roles where they need new skills. We are seeing customers, partners, people in our community really starting to look at, you know, things like DevSecOps engineer, network, automation, engineer, network, automation, developer, which Susie mentioned and looking at how these fit into their organization, the problems that they solve in their organization. And then how do people build the skills to be able to take on these new job roles or add that job role to their current scope and broaden out and take on new challenges. >>Eric, I want to go to you for a quick second on this, um, um, piece of getting the certifications. Um, first, before you get started, describe what your role is as director developer advocacy, because that's always changing and evolving. What's the state of it now because with COVID people are working at home, they have more time to contact, switch and get some certifications and that they can code more. What's your >>Absolutely. So it's interesting. It definitely is changing a lot. A lot of our historically a lot of focus for my team has been on those outward events. So going to the Devin that creates the Cisco lives and helping the community connect and to help share tech mountain technical information with them, um, doing hands on workshops and really getting people into how do you really start solving these problems? Um, so that's had to pivot quite a bit. Um, obviously Cisco live us. We pivoted very quickly to a virtual event when, when conditions changed and we're able to actually connect as we found out with a much larger audience. So, you know, as opposed to in person where you're bound by the parameters of, you know, how big the convention center is, uh, we were actually able to reach a worldwide audience with our, uh, our definite data that was kind of attached on to Cisco live. >>And we got great feedback from the audience that now we were actually able to get that same enablement out to so many more people that otherwise might not have been able to make it. Um, but to your broader question of, you know, what my team does. So that's one piece of it is getting that information out to the community. So as part of that, there's a lot of other things we do as well. We were always helping out build new sandboxes and your learning labs, things like that, that they can come and get whenever they're looking for it out on a dev net site. And then my team also looks after communities such as the Cisco learning network where this there's a huge community that has historically been there to support people working on their Cisco certifications. We've seen a huge shift now in that group, that all of the people that have been there for years are now looking at the domain certifications and helping other people that are trying to get on board with programmability. They're taking a lot of those same community enablement skills and propping up the community with, you know, helping you answer questions, helping provide content. They've moved now into the dump space as well, and are helping people with that service or what it's great seeing the community come along and really see that. Okay. >>I ask you on the trends around automation, what skills and what developer patterns are you seeing with automation? Are, is there anything in particular, obviously network automation has been around for a long time. Cisco has been leader in that, but as you move up, the stack as modern applications are building, do you see any patterns or trends around what is accelerating automation? What are people learning? >>Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned a observability was big before COVID and we actually really saw that amplified during COVID. So a lot of people have come to us looking for insights. How can I get that better observability, uh, now that we need it? Well, we're virtual. Um, so that's actually been a huge uptake and we've seen a lot of people that weren't necessarily out looking for things before that are now figuring out how can I do this at scale? I think one good example that, uh, Susie was talking about the VPN example, and we actually had a number SES in the Cisco community that had customers dealing with that very thing where they very quickly had to ramp up. And one in particular actually wrote a bunch of automation to go out and measure all of the different parameters that it departments might care about, about their firewalls, things that you do normally look at me old days, you would size your firewalls based on, you know, assuming a certain number of people working from home. >>And when that number went to a hundred percent things like licenses started coming into play, where they needed to make sure they have the right capacity in their platforms that they weren't necessarily designed for. So one of the STDs actually wrote a bunch of code to go out, use some open source tooling, to monitor and alert on these things and then published it. So the whole community code could go out and get a copy of it, try it out their own environment. And we saw a lot of interest around that in trying to figure out, okay, now I can take that and I can adapt it to what I need to see for my observability. >>That's great. Mandy. I want to get your thoughts on this too, because as automation continues to scale, um, it's going to be a focus and people are at home and you guys had a lot of content online for you recorded every session that didn't the dev Ned zone learnings going on, sometimes linearly. And nonlinearly you got the certifications, which is great. That's key, key, great success there. People are interested, but what are the learnings? Are you seeing? What are people doing? What's the top top trends. >>Yeah. So what we're seeing is like you said, people are at home, they've got time. They want to advance their skillset. And just like any kind of learning people want choice because they want to be able to choose what's matches their time that's available and their learning style. So we're seeing some people who want to dive into full online study groups with mentors, leading them through a study plan. And we have two new, uh, expert led study groups like that. We're also seeing whole teams at different companies who want to do, uh, an immersive learning experience together, uh, with projects and office hours and things like that. And we have a new, um, offer that we've been putting together for people who want those kinds of team experiences called automation boot camp. And then we're also seeing individuals who want to be able to, you know, dive into a topic, do a hands on lab, get some skills, go to the rest of the day of do their work and then come back the next day. >>And so we have really modular self-driven hands on learning through the dev net fundamentals course, which is available through dev net. And then there's also people who are saying, I just want to use the technology. I like to experiment and then go, you know, read the instructions, read the manual, do the deeper learning. And so they're, they're spending a lot of time in our dev net sandbox, trying out different technologies, Cisco technologies with open source technologies, getting hands on and building things. And three areas where we're seeing a lot of interest in specific technologies. One is around SD wan. There's a huge interest in people skilling up there because of all the reasons that we've been talking about security is a focus area where people are dealing with new, new kinds of threats, having to deal with them in new ways and then automating their data center, using infrastructure as code type principles. So those are three areas where we're seeing a lot of interest and you'll be hearing some more about that at dev net create >>Eric and Mandy. If you guys can wrap up this accelerate automation with dev net package and a virtual event here, um, and also tee up dev net create because dev net create has been a very kind of grassroots, organically building momentum over the years. And again, it's super important cause it's now the app world coming together with networking, you know, end to end programmability and with everything as a service that you guys are doing everything with API APIs, I'm only can imagine the enablement that's gonna create. Can you share the summary real quick on accelerating automation with dev net and tee up dev net create Mandy, we'll start with you. >>Yes, I'll go first. And then Eric can close this out. Um, so just like we've been talking about with you at every Devin event over the past years, you know, damnit is bringing APIs across our whole portfolio and up and down the stack and accelerating, uh, automation with dev net. Susie mentioned the people aspect of that the people's skilling up and how that transformed teams, transforms teams. And I think that it's all connected in how businesses are being pushed on their transformation because of current events. That's also a great opportunity for people to advance their careers and take advantage of some of that quickly changing landscape. And so what I think about accelerating automation with dev net, it's about the Duveneck community. It's about people getting those new skills and all the creativity and problem solving that will be unleashed by that community. With those new skills. >>Eric take us home. He accelerating automation, dev net and dev net create a lot of developer action going on in cloud native right now, your thoughts? >>Absolutely. I think it's exciting. I mentioned the transition to virtual for Devin that day, this year for Cisco live. And we're seeing, we're able to leverage it even further with create this year. So, whereas it used to be, you know, confined by the walls that we were within for the event. Now we're actually able to do things like we're adding the start now track for people that want to be there. They want to be a developer, a network automation developer, for instance, we've now got attract just for them where they can get started and start learning. Some of the skills they'll need, even if some of the other technical sessions were a little bit deeper than what they were ready for. Um, so I love that we're able to bring that together with the experienced community that we usually do from across the industry, bringing us all kinds of innovative talks, talking about ways that they're leveraging technology, leveraging the cloud, to do new and interesting things to solve their business challenges. So I'm really excited to bring that whole mix together, as well as getting some of our business units together too, and talk straight from their engineering departments. What are they doing? What are they seeing? What are they thinking about when they're building new APIs into their platforms? What are the, what problems are they hoping >>That customers will be able to solve with them? So I think together seeing all of that and then bringing the community together from all of our usual channels. So like I said, Cisco learning network, we've got a ton of community coming together, sharing their ideas and helping each other grow those skills. I see nothing but acceleration ahead of us for automation. >>Awesome. Thanks so much. >>Can I add one, add one more thing? Yeah. I was just gonna say the other really exciting thing about create this year with the virtual nature of it is that it's happening in three regions. And, um, you know, we're so excited to see the people joining from all the different regions and, uh, content and speakers and the region stepping up to have things personalized to their area, to their community. And so that's a whole new experience for them that create that's going to be fantastic this year. >>Yeah. That's what I was going to close out and just put the final bow on that. By saying that you guys have always been successful with great content focused on the people in the community. I think now during what this virtual dev net virtual dev net create virtual, the cube virtual, I think we're learning new things. People working in teams and groups and sharing content, we're going to learn new things. We're going to try new things and ultimately people will rise up and we'll be resilient. I think when you have this kind of opportunity, it's really fun. And we'll, we'll, we'll ride the wave with you guys. So thank you so much for taking the time to come on the cube and talk about your awesome accelerating automation and dev net. Great. Looking forward to it. Thank you. >>Thank you so much. Happy to be here. >>Okay. I'm Jennifer with the cube virtual here in Palo Alto studios doing the remote content amendment virtual tour face to face. Thank you so much for watching and we'll see you at dev net create thanks for watching. >>Welcome back. And Jeffrey, >>The cube coming to you from our Palo Alto studio with ongoing coverage of the Cisco dev data van, it's called accelerating automation with dev net and the new normal. And we certainly know the new normal is, is not going away. They've been doing this since the middle of March or all the way to October. And so we're excited to have our next guest is Thomas Shively. He's the vice president of product marketing and data center networking for the intent based networking group at Cisco Thomas. Great to see you. >>Hey, good to see you too. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody can see on our background. Exactly, >>Exactly. So, I mean, I'm curious, we've talked to a lot of people. We talked to a lot of leaders, you know, especially like back in March and April with this light switch moment, which was, you know, no time to prep and suddenly everybody has to work from home. Teachers got to teach from home. And so you got the kids home, you got the spouse home, everybody's home trying to get on the network and do their zoom calls in their classes. I'm curious from your perspective, you guys are right there on the, on the network you're right in the infrastructure. What did you hear and see kind of from your customers when suddenly, you know, March 16 hit and everybody had to go home. >>Wow, good point. Hey, I do think we all appreciate the network >>Much more than we used to do before. Uh, and then the only other difference is I'm really more on WebEx calls and zoom calls, but, you know, otherwise, uh, yes. Um, what, what I do see actually is that as I said, network becomes much more operative as a critical piece. And so before we really talked a lot about, uh, agility and flexibility these days, we talk much more about resiliency quite frankly. Uh, and what do I need to have in place with respect to network to get my things from left to right. And you know, it, 2000 East to West, as we say on the data center. Right. Uh, and that just is for most of my customers, a very, very important topic at this point. >>Right. You know, it's, it's amazing to think, you know, had this happened, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago, you know, the ability for so many people in, in, in the information industry to be able to actually make that transition relatively seamlessly, uh, is, is actually pretty amazing. I'm sure there was some, some excitement and some kudos in terms of, you know, it, it is all based on the network and it is kind of this quiet thing in the background that nobody pays attention to. It's like a ref in the football game until they make a bad play. So, you know, it, it is pretty fascinating that you and your colleagues have put this infrastructure and that enabled us to really make that move with, with, with really no prep, no planning and actually have a whole lot of services delivered into our homes that we're used to getting at the office are used to getting at school. >>Yeah. And I mean, to your point, I mean, some of us did some planning, can we clearly talking about some of these, these trends and the way I look at this trans as being distributed data centers and, um, having the ability to move your workloads and access for users to wherever you want to be. And so I think that clearly went on for a while then. So in a sense, we, we, we prep was, or no, but we're prepping for it. Um, but as I said, resiliency just became so much more important than, you know, one of the things I actually do a little block, a little, little, uh, abrupt before a block I put out end of August around resiliency. Uh, you, you, if he didn't, if he didn't put this in place, you better put it in place. Because I think as we all know, we sold our match. This is like maybe two or three months, we're now in October. Um, and I sing, this is the new normal for some time being. Yeah, >>I think so. So let's stick on that theme in terms of, of trends, right? The other great, uh, trend as public cloud, um, and hybrid cloud and multi cloud, there's all types of variants on that theme you had in that blog post about, uh, resiliency in data center, cloud networking, data center cloud, you know, some people think, wait, it's, it's kind of an either, or I either got my data center or I've got my stuff in the cloud and I've got public cloud. And then as I said, hybrid cloud, you're talking really specifically about enabling, um, both inner inner data center resiliency within multi data centers within the same enterprise, as well as connecting to the cloud. That's probably counterintuitive for some people to think that that's something that Cisco is excited about and supporting. So I wonder if you can share, you know, kind of how the market is changing, how you guys are reacting and really putting the things in place to deliver customer choice. >>Yeah, no, it's actually, to me, it's really not a counterintuitive because in the end was what, uh, I'm focusing on. And the company is focused on is what our customers want to do and need to do. Uh, and that's really, um, would, you know, most people call hybrid cloud or multi-cloud, uh, in, in the end, what it is, what it is, is really the ability to have the flexibility to move your workloads where you want them to be. And there are different reasons why you want to place them, right? You might've placed them for security reasons. You might have played some compliance reasons, depending on which customer segment you after, if you're in the United States or in Europe or in Asia, there are a lot of different reasons where you're going to put your sinks. And so I sing in the end, what a, an enterprise looks for is that agility, flexibility, and resiliency. >>And so really what you want to put in place is what we call like the cloud on ramp, right? You need to have an ability to move sings as needed. But the logic context section, which we see in the last couple of months, accelerating is really this whole seam around digital transformation, uh, which goes hand in hand then was, uh, the requirement on the at T side really do. And I T operations transformation, right. How it operates. Uh, and I think that's really exciting to see, and this is where a lot of my discussions I was customers, uh, what does it actually mean with respect to the it organization and what are the operational changes? This a lot of our customers are going through quite frankly, accelerated right. Going through, >>Right. And, and automation is in the title of the event. So automation is, you know, is an increasingly important thing, you know, as the, as we know, and we hear all the time, you know, the flows of data, the complexity of the data, either on the security or the way the network's moving, or as you said, shifting workloads around, based on the dynamic situations, whether that's business security, et cetera, in a software defined networking has been around for a while. How are you seeing kind of this evolution in adding more automation, you know, to more and more processes to free up those, those, um, no kind of limited resources in terms of really skilled people to focus on the things that they should be focused on and not stuff that, that hopefully you can, you know, get a machine to run with some level of. >>Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. And I said the tech line, I have, you know, sometimes when my mind is really going from a cloud ready, which is in most of our infrastructure is today to cloud native. And so let me a little expand on those, right? There's like the cloud ready is basically what we have put in place over the last five to six years, all the infrastructure that all our customers have, network infrastructure, all the nexus 9,000, they're all cloud ready. Right. And what this really means, do you have API APIs everywhere, right? Whether this is on the box, whether it's on the controller, whether this is on the operations tools, all of these are API enabled and that's just the foundation for automation, right? You have to have that. Now, the next step really is what do you do with that capability? >>Right? And this is the integration with a lot of automation tools, uh, and that's a whole range, right? And this is where the it operation transformation kicks in different customers at different speeds, right? Some just, you know, I use these API APIs and use NoMo tools that they have on a network world just to pull information. Some customers go for further and saying, I want to integrate this with some CMDB tools. Some go even further and saying, this is like the cloud native pleasing, Oh, I want to use, let's say red hat Ansible. I want to use, uh, how she called Terraform and use those things to actually drive how I manage my infrastructure. And so that's really the combination of the automation capability. Plus the integration with relevant cloud native enabling tools that really is happening at this point. We're seeing customers accelerating that, that motion, which really then drives us how they run their it operations. Right? And so that's a pretty exciting, exciting area to see a given. I, we have the infrastructure in place. There's no need for customers to actually do change something. Most of them have already the infrastructures that can do this. It is just no doing the operational change. The process changes to actually get there. >>Right. And it's funny, we, we recently covered, you know, PagerDuty and, and they highlight what you just talked about. The cloud native, which is, you know, all of these applications now are so interdependent on all these different API APIs, you know, pulling data from all of these applications. So a, when they work great, it's terrific. But if there's a problem, you know, there's a whole lot of potential throat to choke out there and find, find those issues. And it's all being connected via the network. So, you know, it's even more critically important, not only for the application, but for all these little tiny components within the application to deliver, you know, ultimately a customer experience within a very small units of time, uh, so that you don't lose that customer. You, you complete that transaction. They, they check out of their shopping cart. You know, all these, these things that are now created with cloud native applications that just couldn't really do before. >>No, you're absolutely right. And that's, this is like, just sit. I'm actually very excited because it opens up a lot of abilities for our customers, how they want to actually structure the operation. Right? One of the nice things around this or automation plus, uh, tool integration, cloning to, and integration is you actually opened this up, not a soul automation train, not just to the network operations personnel, right. You also open it up and can use this for the second ops person or for the dev ops person or for the cloud ops engineering team. Right. Because the way it's structured, the way we built this, um, is literally as an API interface and you can now decide, what is your process do you want to have? And what traditional, you have a request network, operation teams executes the request using these tools and then hand it back over. >>Or do you say, Hey, maybe some of these security things I got to hand over the sec ups team, and they can directly call these these KPIs, right? Or even one step further, you can have the opportunity that the dev ops or the application team actually says, Hey, I got to write a whole infrastructure as code kind of a script or template, and I just execute. Right. And it's really just using what the infrastructure provides. And so that whole range of different user roles and our customer base, what they can do with the automation capability that's available. It's just very, very exciting way because it's literally unleashes a lot of flexibility, how they want to structure and how they want to rebuild the it operations processes. >>That's interesting, you know, cause the, you know, the DevOps culture has taken over a lot, right. Obviously change software programming for the last 20 years. And I think, you know, there's a, there's a lot of just kind of the concept of dev ops versus necessarily, you know, the actual things that you do to execute that technique. And I don't think most people would think of, you know, network ops or, you know, net ops, you know, whatever the equivalent is in the networking world to have, you know, kind of a fast changing dynamic, uh, kind of point of view versus a, you know, stick it in, you know, spec it, stick it in, lock it down. So I wonder if you can, you can share how, you know, kind of that dev ops, um, attitude point of view, workflow, whatever the right verb is, has impacted, you know, things at Cisco and the way you guys think about networking and flexibility within the networking world. >>Yeah, literally, absolutely. And again, it's all customer driven, right? There's none of those. None of those is really actually, you know, a little bit of credit, maybe some of us where we have a vision, but a lot of it is just customer driven feedback. Uh, and yeah, we, we do have network operations teams comes to saying, Hey, we use Ansible heavily on the compute side, we might use this for alpha seven. We want to use the same for networking. And so we made available all these integrations, uh, with sobriety as a state, whether these are the switches, whether these are ACI decent, a controller or our multicell orchestration capabilities, all of these has Ansible integration the way to the right. Uh, the other one, as I mentioned, that how she formed Turco Terraform, we have integrations available and they see the requests for these tools to use that. >>Uh, and so that is emotion where in for all the, you know, and, uh, another block actually does out there, we just posted saying, Neil, all set what you can do and then a Palo to this, right. Just making the integration available. We also have a very, very heavy focus on definite and enablement and training, uh, and you know, a little plugin. I know, uh, probably, uh, part of the segment, the whole definite community that Cisco has is very, very vibrant. Uh, and the beauty of this is right. If you look at us, whether you're a NetApps person or dev ops person or SecOps person, it doesn't really matter. It has a lot of like capability available to just help you get going or go from one level to the next level. Right. And it's simplest thing that like sent books and why moments where you can, we know what's out stress, try sinks out snippets of code Coda there, you can do all of these things. And so we do see it's a kind of a push and pull a tremendous amount of interest and a tremendous, uh, uh, time people spend to learn quite frankly. And that's another site product of, of, you know, the situation we're in and people said, Oh man, and say, okay, online learning, that's the thing. So these, these, these tools are used very, very heavily. Right, >>Right. That's awesome. Cause you know, we've, we've had Susie Lee on a number of times and I know he and Mandy and the team really built this dev net thing. And it really follows along this other theme that we see consistently across other pieces of tech, which is democratization, right. Democratization of the access tool, taking it out of, of just a mahogany row with, again, a really limited number of people that know how to make it work and can make the changes and then opening up to a software defined world where now that the, you know, the, it says application centric, point of view, where the people that are building the apps to go create competitive advantage. Now don't have to wait for, you know, the one network person to help them out out of these environments. Really interesting. And I wonder if, you know, when you look at what's happening with public cloud and how they kind of change the buying parameter, how they kind of changed the degree of difficulty to get projects started, you know, how you guys have kind of integrated that, that type of thought process to make it easier for app developers to get their job done. >>Yeah. I mean, again, it's, it's, uh, I typically look at this more from a, from a customer lands, right? It's the transformation process and it always starts as I want agility. I want flexibility. I want to resiliency, right. This is where we talk to a business owner, what they're looking for. And then that translates into, into an I operations process, right? Your strategy needs to map then how you actually do this. Uh, and that just drives then what tools do you want to have available to actually enable this? Right. And the enablement again is for different roles, right? There is you need to give sync services to the app developer and, uh, the, the platform team and the security team, right. To your point. So the network, uh, can act at the same speed, but you also give to us to the network operations teams because they need to, uh, adjust. >>Then they have the ability to react to, uh, to some of these requirements. Right. And it's not just automation. I say, we, we, we focused on that, but there's also to your point, the, the need, how do I extend between data centers? You know, just, just for backup and recovery and how do I extend into, into public clouds, right? Uh, and in the end, that's a, that's a network connectivity problem. Uh, and we have soft as, uh, we have made as available. We have integrations into, uh, AWS. We have integrations into a joy to actually make this very easy from a, from a network perspective to extend your private, private networks into which of private networks on these public clouds. So from an app development perspective, now it looks like he's on the same network. It's a protective enterprise network. Some of it might sit here. >>Some of it might sit here, but it's really looking the same. And that's really in the enticing, what a business looks at, right. They don't necessarily want to say, I need to have something separate for this deployment. What's a separate for that deployment. What they want is I need to deploy something. I need to do this resilient. And the resilient way in an agile way gives me the tools. And so that's really where we focused, um, and what we're driving, right? It's that combination of automation consistently, and then definite tools, uh, available that we support. Uh, but they're all open. Uh, they're all standard tools as the ones I mentioned, right. That everybody's using. So I'm not getting into this. Oh, this is specific to Cisco, right. It's really democratisation. I actually liked your term. Yeah. >>Yeah. It's, it's a great terminate. And it's, it's really interesting, especially with, with the API APIs and the way everything is so tied together that everyone kind of has to enable this because that's what the customer is demanding. Um, and it is all about the applications and the workloads and where those things are moving, but they don't really want to manage that. They just want to, you know, deliver business benefit to their customers and respond to, uh, you know, competitive threats in the marketplace, et cetera. So it's really an interesting time for the infrastructure, you know, to really support kind of this app first point of view, uh, versus the other way around is kind of what it used to be and, and enable this hyper fast development hyper fast, uh, change in, in, in the competitive landscape or else you will be left behind. Um, so super important stuff. >>Yeah, no, I totally agree. And as I said, I mean, it's, it's kind of interesting is we, we started on the Cisco data center side. We started this probably six or seven years ago. Uh, when we, when we named the application centric, uh, clearly a lot of these concepts evolve, uh, but in a sense it is that reversal of the role from the network provides something and you use to, uh, this is what I want to do. And I need a service, uh, thinking on a networking side to expose. So as that can be consumed. And so that clearly is playing out. Um, and as I said, automation is a key key foundation that we put in place, uh, and our customers, most of our customers at this point, uh, on these, on these products, uh, they have all the capabilities they are, they can literally take advantage. There's really nothing that stops them point. >>Well, it's good times for you because I'm sure you've seen all the memes and in social media, right. What what's driving your digital transformation is that the CEO, the CMO or COVID, and we all know the answer to the question. So I don't think the, the pace of change is going to slow down anytime soon. So keeping the network up and enabling us all to get done, what we have to get done and all the little magic that happens behind the scenes. >>Yeah. No thanks. Thanks for having me. And again, yeah. If you're listening and you're wondering, how do I get started Cisco? Definitely just the place to go. It's fantastic. Fantastic. I highly recommend everybody roll up his sleeves and you know, the best races you can have. >>And we know once the physical events come back, we've been to dev net create a bunch of times, and it's a super vibrant, super excited, but really engaged community sharing. Lots of information is kind of, it's still kind of that early vibe, you know, where everyone is still really enthusiastic and really about learning and sharing information. So, you know, like say Susie and the team are really built a great thing, and we're a, we're happy to continue to cover it. And eventually we'll be back, uh, face to face. I look forward to that as well. All right, thanks. Uh, he's Thomas I'm Jeff, you're watching continuing coverage of Cisco dev net accelerating with automation and programmability >>Kia. Nini is here. He's a distinguished engineer at Cisco TK, my friend. Good to see you again. How are you? Good. I mean, you and I were in Barcelona in January and, you know, we knew we saw this thing coming, but we didn't see it coming this way. Did we know that no one did, but yeah, that was right before everything happened. Well, it's weird. Right? I mean, we were, you know, we, we, it was in the back of our minds in January, we sort of had Barcelona's hasn't really been hit yet. It looked like it was really isolated in China, but, uh, but wow, what a change and I guess, I guess I'd say I'd start with the, we're seeing really a secular change in, in your space and security identity, access management, cloud security, endpoint security. I mean, all of a sudden these things explode as the work from home pivot has occurred, and it feels like these changes are permanent or semi-permanent, what are you seeing out there? >>I don't think anybody thinks the world's going to go back the way it was. Um, to some degree it's, it's changed forever. Um, you know, I, I, I do a lot of my work remotely. Um, and, and so, you know, being a remote worker, isn't such a big deal for me, but for some, it was a huge impact. And like I said, you know, um, remote education, you know, everybody's on the opposite side of a computer. And so the digital infrastructure has just become a lot more important to protect the integrity of it essentially is almost our own integrity these days. Yeah. And when you see that, you know, that work from home pivot, I mean, you know, our estimates are, or along with our partner, DTR about 16% of the workforce was at home working from home prior to COVID and now it's know, North of 70% >>Plus, and that's going to come down maybe a little bit over the next, next six months. We'll see what happens with the fall surge, but, but people essentially accept, expect that to at least double that 16%, you know, going forward indefinitely. So how, what does that, what kind of pressure does that put on the security infrastructure and how, how organizations are approaching security? >>Yeah, I, I just think, uh, from a mindset standpoint, you know, what was optional, uh, maybe, um, last year, uh, is no longer optional and I don't think it's going to go back. Um, I think, I think a lot of people, uh, have changed the way, you know, they live and the way they work. Um, and they're doing it in ways, hopefully that, you know, in some cases, uh, yield more productivity, um, again, um, you know, usually with technology that's severely effective, it doesn't pick sides. So the security slant to it is it frankly works just as well for the bad guys. And so that's, that's the balance we need to keep, which is we need to be extra diligent, uh, on how we go about securing infrastructure, uh, how we go about securing even our, our social channels, because remember all our social channels now are digital. So that's, that's become the new norm. >>You know, you've helped me understand over the years. I remember a line you shared with me in the cube one time is that the adversary is highly capable as sort of the, of the phrase that you used. And, and essentially the way you describe it, as you know, your job as a security practitioner is to decrease the bad guy's return on investment, you know, increase their costs, increase the numerator, but as, as work shifts from home, yeah, I'm in my house, you know, my wifi in my, you know, router with my, you know, dog's name is the password, you know, it's much, much harder for me to, to increase that denominator at home. So can you help? >>Yeah. I mean, it's, it is, it is truly, um, when you think, when you get into the mind of the adversary and, and, uh, you know, the cyber crime out there, they're honestly just like any other business they're trying to operate with high margin. And so if you can get there, if you can get in there and erode their margin, frankly go find something else to do. Um, and, and again, you know, you know, the shift we experienced day to day is it's not just our kids are online in school and, uh, our work is online, but all of the groceries we order, um, you know, this Thanksgiving and holiday season, uh, a lot more online shopping is going to place. So everything's gone digital. And so the question is, you know, how, how do we up our game there so that we can go about our business, uh, effectively. And I make it very expensive for the adversary to operate, uh, and take care of their business. Cause it's nasty stuff. >>I want to ask you about automation generally, and then specifically how it applies to security. So we, I mean, we certainly saw the ascendancy of the hyperscalers and of course they really attacked the it labor problem. We learned a lot from that and an it organizations have applied much of that thinking. And it's critical at scale. I mean, you just can't scale humans at the pace, the technology scales today, how does that apply to security and specifically, how is automation affecting security? >>Yeah, it's, it's, it's the topic these days. Um, you know, businesses, I think, realize that they can't continue to grow at human scale. And so the reason why automation and things like AI and machine learning have a lot of value is because everyone's trying to expand, uh, and operate at machine scale. Now, I mean that for, for businesses, I mean that for, you know, education and everything else now, so are the adversaries, right? So it's expensive for them to operate at Cuban scale and they are going to machine scale, going to machine scale, uh, a necessity is that you're going to have to harness some level of automation, have the machines, uh, work on your behalf, have the machines carry your intent. Um, and when you do that, um, you can do it safely or you could do it dangerously. And that that's really kind of your choice. Um, you know, just because you can automate something doesn't mean you should, um, you, you wanna make sure that frankly, the adversary can't get in there and use that automation on their behalf. So it's, it's a tricky thing because, you know, if, when you take the phrase, you know, uh, how do we, how do we automate security? Well, you actually have to, uh, take care of, of securing the automation first. >>Yeah. We talked about this in Barcelona, where you were explaining that, you know, the, the bad guys, the adversaries are essentially, you know, weaponizing using your own tooling, which makes them appear safe because it's, they're hiding in plain sight. >>Well, there's, they're clever, uh, give them that, um, you know, that there's this phrase that they, they always talk about called living off the land. Um, there's no sense in them coming into your network and bringing their tools and, uh, and being detective, you know, if they can use the tools that's already there, then, uh, they have a higher degree of, of evading, uh, your protection. If they can pose as Alice or Bob, who's already been credentialed and move around your network, then they're moving around the network as Alice or Bob. They're not marked as the adversary. So again, you know, having the detection methods available to find their behavior anomalies and things like that become a paramount, but also, you know, having the automation to contain them, to eradicate them, to, you know, minimize their effectiveness, um, without it, I mean, ideally without human interaction, cause you, you just, can you move faster, you move quicker. Um, and I, I see that with an asterisk because, um, if, if done wrong, frankly, um, you're just making their job more effective. >>I wonder if we could talk about the market a little bit, uh, it's I'm in the security space, cybersecurity 80 plus billion, which by the way, is just a little infant Tessa mill component of our GDP. So we're not spending nearly enough to protect that massive, uh, GDP, but guys, I wonder if you could bring up the chart because when you talk to CSOs and you ask them, what's your, what's your biggest challenge? Let's say lack of talent. And, and so what this chart shows is from ETR, our, our, our survey partner and on the vertical axis is net score. And that's an indication of spending momentum on the horizontal axis is market share, which is a measure of presence, a pervasiveness, if you will, inside the data sets. And so there's a couple of key points here. I wanted to put forth to our audience and then get your reactions. >>So you can see Cisco, I highlighted in red, Cisco is business and security is very, very strong. We see it every quarter. It's a growth area that Chuck Robbins talks about on the, on the conference call. And so you can see on the horizontal axis, you've got, you know, big presence in the data set. I mean, Microsoft is out there, but they're everywhere, but you're right there in that, in that data set. And then you've got for such a large presence, you've got a lot of momentum in the marketplace, so that's very impressive. But the other point here is you've got this huge buffet of options. There's just a zillion vendors here. And that just adds to the complexity. This is of course only a subset of what's in the security space. You know, the people who answered for the survey. So my question is how can Cisco help simplify this picture? Is it automation? Is it, you know, you guys have done some really interesting tuck in acquisitions and you're bringing that integration together. Can you talk about that a little bit? >>Yeah. I mean, that's an impressive chart. I mean, when you look to the left there it's, um, I had a customer tell me once that, you know, I came to this trade show, looking for transportation, and these people are trying to sell me car parts. Um, that's the frustration customers have, you know, and I think what Cisco has done really well is to really focus on the outcomes. Um, what is the customer outcome? Cause ultimately that's, that is what the customer wants. You know, there might be a few steps to get to that outcome, but the closest you can closer, you can get to delivering outcomes for the customer, the better you are. And I think, I think security in general has just year over year have been just written with, um, you need to be an expert. Um, you need to buy all these parts and put it together yourself. And, and I think, I think those days are behind us, but particularly as, as security becomes more pervasive and we're, you know, we're selling to the business, we're not selling to the, you know, t-shirt wearing hacker anymore. >>Yeah. So, well, well, how does cloud fit in here? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about cloud people that God put my data in the cloud I'm safe, but you know, of course we know it's a shared responsibility model. So I'm interested in your, your thoughts on that. Is it really, is it a sense of complacency? A lot of the cloud vendors, by the way, say, Oh, the state of security is great in the cloud. Whereas many of us out there saying, wow, it's, it's not so great. Uh, so what are your thoughts on that, that whole narrative and what Cisco's play in, in cloud? >>I think cloud, um, when you look at the services that are delivered via the cloud, you see that exact pattern, which is you see customers paying for the outcome or as close to the outcome as possible. Um, you know, no, no data center required, no disk drive required, you just get storage, you know, it's, it's, it's all of those things that are again, closer to the outcome. I think the thing that interests me about cloud two is it's really been, it's really punctuated the way we go about building systems. Um, again, at machine scale. So, you know, before, when I write code and I think about what computers are gonna run on, or, you know, what servers are going to is you're going to run on those. Those thoughts never crossed my mind anymore. You know, I'm modeling the intent of what the service should do and the machines then figure it out. So, you know, for instance, on Tuesday, if the entire internet shows up, uh, the, the system works without fail. And if on Wednesday, if only North America shows up, you know, so what, but, but there's no way you could staff that, right? There's just no human scale approach that gets you there. And that's, that's the beauty of all of this cloud stuff is, um, it really is, uh, the next level of how we computer science. >>So you're talking about infrastructure as code and that applies to, you know, security as code. That's what, you know, dev net is really all about. I've said many times, I think Cisco of the, the large established enterprise companies is one of the few, if not the only, that really has figured out, you know, that developer angle, because it's practical do, you're not trying to force your way into developers, but, you know, I wonder if you could, you could talk a little bit about that trend and where you see it going. >>Yeah, no, that is, that is truly the trend. Every time I walk into dev net, um, the big halls at Cisco live, it is Cisco as code. Um, everything about Cisco is being presented through an API. It is automation ready. And, and frankly, that is, um, that is the love language of the cloud. Um, it's it's machines, if the machines talking to machines in very effective ways. So, you know, it is the, the, uh, I, I think, I think necessary, maybe not sufficient but necessary for, um, you know, doing all the machine scale stuff. What what's also necessary, uh, is to, um, to secure if, if infrastructure is code therefore, um, what, what secure, uh, what security methodologies do we have today that we use to secure code while we have automated testing, we have threat modeling, right? Those things actually have to be now applied to infrastructure. So when I, when I talk about how do you do, uh, automation securely, you do it the same way you secure your code, you test it, you, you threaten model, you, you, you say, you know, Ken, my adversary, uh, exhibit something here that drives the automation in a way that I didn't intend it to go. Um, so all of those practices apply. It's just, everything is code these days. >>I've often said that security and privacy are sort of two sides of the same coin. And I want to ask you a question and it's really, to me, it's not necessarily Cisco and company likes companies like Cisco's responsibility, but I wonder if there's a way in which you can help. And of course, there's this Netflix documentary circling around the social dilemma. I don't know if you have a chance to see it, but basically dramatize is the way in which companies are appropriating our data to sell us ads and, you know, creating our own little set of facts, et cetera. And that comes down to sort of how we think about privacy and admin. It's good from the standpoint of awareness, you know, you may or may not care if you're a social media user. I love tick doc. I don't care, but they sort of laid out this pretty scary scenario with a lot of the inventors of those technologies. You have any thoughts on that? And you'll consist go play a role there in terms of protecting our privacy mean beyond GDPR and California consumer privacy act. Um, what do you think? >>Yeah. Um, uh, I'll give you my, you know, my humble opinion is you, you fix social problems with social tools, you fixed technology problems with technology tools. Um, I think there is a social problem. Um, uh, that needs to be rectified the, you know, um, we, we, weren't built as human beings to live and interact with an environment that agrees with us all the time. It's just pretty wrong. So yeah, that, that, that, um, that series that really kind of wake up a lot of people it is, is, you know, it's probably every day I hear somebody asked me if I, I saw, um, but I do think it also, you know, with that level of awareness, I think we, we overcome it or we compensate by what number one, just being aware that it's happening. Um, number two, you know, how you go about solving it, I think maybe come down to an individual or even a community's, um, solution and what might be right for one community might be, you know, not the same for the other. So you have to be respectful in that manner. >>Yeah. So it's, it's, it's almost, I think if I could, you know, play back, what I heard is, is yeah. Technology, you know, maybe got us into this problem, but technology alone is not going to get us out of the problem. It's not like some magic AI bot is going to solve this. It's got to be, you know, society has to really, really take this on as your premise. >>When I, when I first started playing online games, I'm going back to, you know, the text based adventure stuff like muds and Mose. I did a talk at, at MIT one time and, um, this old curmudgeon in the back of the room, um, we were talking about democracy and we were talking about, you know, the social processes that we had modeled in our game and this and that. And this guy just gave us the SmackDown. He needs to be walked up to the front of the room and said, you know, all you techies, you judge efficiency by how long it takes. He says, democracy is a completely the opposite, which is you need to sleep on it. In fact, you shouldn't be scared if somebody can decide in a minute, what is good for the community? It, two weeks later, they probably have a better idea of what's good for the community. So it almost has the opposite dynamic. And that was super interesting to me, >>Really interesting, you know, you read the, like the, the Lincoln historians and he was criticized in the day for having taken so long, you know, to make certain decisions, but, you know, ultimately when he acted acted with, with confidence. Um, so to that point, but, um, so what, what else are you working on these days that, uh, that are, that is, is interesting that maybe you want to share with our audience? Anything that's really super exciting for you or are you >>Yeah. You know, generally speaking, um, try not try and make it a little harder for the bad guys to operate. I guess that's a general theme making it simpler for the common person to use, uh, tools. Um, again, you know, all of these security tools, no matter how fancy it is, it's not that we're losing the complexity, it's that we're moving the complexity away from the user so that they can drive at human scale. And we can do things at machine scale and kind of working those two together is sort of the, the, the magic recipe. Um, it's, it's not easy, but, um, but it is, it is fun. So that's, that's what keeps me engaged. >>I'm definitely seeing, I wonder if you see it as just sort of a, obviously a heightened organization awareness, but I'm also seeing shifts in the organizational structures. You know, the, you know, it used to be a sec ops team and an Island. Okay, it's your problem? You know, the, the, the CSO cannot report into the, to the CIO because that's like the Fox in the hen house, a lot of those structures are, are, are changing. It seems, and be becoming a, this responsibility is coming much more ubiquitous across the organization. What are you seeing there? And what are you? >>And it's so familiar to me because, you know, um, I, I started out as a musician. So, you know, bands bands are a great analogy. You know, you play bass, I big guitar. You know, somebody else plays drums, everybody knows their role and you create something that's larger than the sum of all parts. And so that, that analogy I think, is coming to, you know, we, we saw it sort of with dev ops where, you know, the developer, doesn't just throw their coat over the wall and it's somebody else's problem. They move together as a band. And, and that's what I think, um, organizations are seeing is that, you know, why, why stop there? Why not include marketing? Why not include sales? Why don't we move together as a business? Not just here's the product and here's the rest of the business. That's, that's, that's pretty awesome. Um, I think, uh, we see a lot of those patterns, uh, particularly for the highly high performance businesses. >>You know, in fact, it's interesting, you have great analogy by the way. And you actually see in that within Cisco, you're seeing sort of a, and I know sometimes you guys don't like to talk about the plumbing, but I think it matters. I mean, you've got a leadership structure now. I I've talked to many of them. They seem to really be more focused on how their connect connecting, you know, across organizations. And it's increasingly critical in this world of, you know, of silo busters. Isn't it? >>Yeah, no, I mean, you almost, as, as you move further and further away, you know, you can see how ridiculous it was before it would be like acquiring the band and say, okay, all your guitar players go over here. All your bass players go over there. Like what happened to the band? That's what I'm talking about is, you know, moving all of those disciplines, moving together and servicing the same backlog and achieving the same successes together is just so awesome. Well, I, I always feel better after talking to you. You know, I remember I remember art. Coviello used to put out his letter every year and I was reading. I'd get depressed. We spend all this money now we're less secure. But when I talked to you TK, I feel like much more optimistic. So I really appreciate the time you spend on the cube. It's, it's awesome to have you as a guest. I love these, I love these sessions. So things thanks for inviting me and I miss you, you know, hopefully, you know, next year we can get together at some of the Cisco shows or other shows, but be well and stay weird. Like the sign says kidney, thanks so much for coming to the Q. We, uh, we really appreciate it. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante. We've right back with our next guest. This short break, >>After the cubes coverage, just to keep virtuals coverage of dev net create virtual. We're not face to face the cubes been there with dev net and dev net create. Since the beginning, dev net create was really a part of the dev net community. Looking out at the external market outside of Cisco, which essentially is the cloud native world, which is going mainstream. We've got a great guest here. Who's, who's been the company's been on the cube. Many times. We've been talking to them recently acquired by Cisco thousand eyes. We have Joe Vaccaro is beast vice president of product. Uh, Joe, welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. Great. And thanks for having me. You have the keys to the kingdom, you, the vice president of product, which means you get to look inside and you get to look outside, figure it all out, uh, make everything run on thousand eyes. >>You guys have been finding common language, uh, across multiple layers of network intelligence, external services. This is the heart of what we're seeing in innovation with multi-cloud microservices, cloud native. This is really a hot area it's converged in multiple theaters and technology. Super important. I want to get into that with you, but first thousand eyes is recently acquired by Cisco, um, big acquisition, uh, super important, the new CEO of Cisco, very clear API, everything we're seeing that come out. That's a big theme at dev net create the ecosystem of Cisco's going outside their own, you know, their, their walls outside of the Cisco network operators, network engineers. We're talking to developers talking programmability. This is the big theme. What's it like at Cisco? Tell us, honestly, the COVID hits. You get acquired by Cisco, tell us what's happening. >>Yeah, it's really been an exciting six months for the entire team and customers, >>You know, as we all kind of shifted to the new normal of working from home. And I think, you know, that change alone really kind of amplified. Even some of the fundamental beliefs that we have as a company that you know, cloud is becoming the new data center or customers that Indra internet has become the new network and the new enterprise network backbone. And that SAS has really become the new application stack. And as you think about these last six months, those fundamental truths have never been more evident as we rely upon the cloud to be able to, to work as we rely upon our own home networks and the internet in order to be productive. And as we access more sized applications on a daily basis. And as you think about those fundamental truths, what's common across all of them is that you rely upon them now more than ever, not only to run your business, but to any of your employees would be productive, but you don't own them. And if you don't own them, then you lack the ability in a traditional way to be able to understand that digital experience. And I think that's ultimately what, what thousand eyes is trying to solve for. And I think it's really being amplified in really these last six months. >>Talk about the Cova dynamic because I think it highlighted and certainly accelerated digital transformation, but specifically exposes opportunities, challenges, weaknesses, I've talked to many CXOs CSOs. Uh, sec security is huge. Um, the home of the conference book talk track we'll get to in a second, but it exposes what's worth doubling down on what to abandoned from a project standpoint, as people start to look at their priorities, they're going, Hey, we got to have a connected experience. We got to have security. People are working at home. No one has VPNs at home. VPNs are passe. Maybe it's SD when maybe it's something else they're on a backbone. They're connecting to the internet, a lot of different diversity in connections. At the same time, you got a ton of modern apps running for these networks. This is a huge issue. COVID is exposed this at scale. What's your view on this? And what is thousand eyes thinking about this? >>You know, if you think about the kind of legacy application delivery, it went from largely users in an office connected over, say a dedicated corporate network, largely to traditional say internal hosted applications. And that was a early, simple, uh, connectivity bath. And as you mentioned, we've seen amplifications in terms of the diversity from the users. So users are not in the office. Now they're connected in distributed disparate locations that are dynamically changing. And you think that how they're getting to that application, they're going across a really complex service chain of different network services that are working together across as public internet backbone will totally to land them on an application. And then those applications themselves are becoming now, as you mentioned, distributed largely based upon a microservices architecture and increasing their own dependence upon third party sample size applications to fulfill say, functions of that application, those three things together. >>Ultimately you're creating that level level of complex service chain that really makes it difficult to understand the digital experience and ultimately the it organization newly chartered with not just delivering the infrastructure, but delivering the right experience. And you then have a way to be able to see, to gain that visibility, that experience, you know, to measure it and understand, and to provide that intelligence and then ultimately to act on it, to be able to ensure that your employees, as well as your customers are getting the right overall, um, approach to being able to leverage those assets. >>It's funny, you know, as you get into some of these high-scale environments, a lot of these concepts are converging. You know, we had terms like automation, self healing networks. Um, you mentioned microservices early, you mentioned data at the clouds, the new data center, uh, or when's the new land. However, we're going to look at it. It's a whole different architecture. So I want to get your thoughts on, on the automation piece of networking and internet outages, for instance, um, because when you, you know, there's so many outages going up and down, it is like, uh, catching, looking for a needle in a haystack, right. So, um, we've had this conversation with you guys on the cube before, how does automation occur when you guys look at those kinds of things? Uh, what's important to look at, can you comment on and react to, you know, the internet outages and how you find resolve those? >>Yeah. It's um, it was really great. And as you mentioned, automation really in a place that a key, when you think about the, just a broad problem that it is trying to drive and, you know, from our lens, we look at it in really three ways. First off is you have to be able to gain the level of visibility from where it matters and be able to, to test and be able to provide that level of active measurements across the, the type of ways you want to be able to inspect the network. But then also from the right vantage points, you want to inspect it. But what we talk about right inside, you know, data, um, alone, doesn't solve that problem. As you mentioned, that needle in the haystack, you know, data just provides the raw metrics that are screaming across the screen. You have to then enable that data to provide meeting. >>You need to enable that data become intelligent. And that intelligence comes through the automation of being able to process that data very quickly, allow you to be able to see the unseen, to allow you to be able to quickly understand the issues that are happening across this digital supply chain to identify issues that are even happening outside of your own control across the public internet. And then the last step of automation really comes in the form of the action, right? How do you enable that intelligence to be put, to use? How do you enable that intelligence to then drive across the rest of your it workflow as well as to be able to be used as a signaling engine, to be able to then make the fundamental changes back at the network fabric, whether that is a dressing or modifying your BGB pairing, that we see happen within our customers using thousand eyes data, to be able to route around major internet outages that we've seen over the past six months, or to be able to then that data, to be able to optimize the ultimate experience that they're delivering to both our customers, as well as our employees, >>Classic policy based activity, taking it to a whole nother level. I got to get your thoughts on the employees working at home. Okay. Because, um, you know, most it, people are like, Oh yeah, we're going to forecast in cases of disruption or a hurricane or a flood or hurricane Sandy, but now with COVID, everyone's working at home. So who would have forecasted a hundred percent, um, you know, work from home, which puts a lot of pressure on him, everything. So I got to ask you, now that employees are working at home, how do you tie network visibility to the actual user experience? >>Yeah, that's a great question. As you, you know, we saw it within our own customer base, you know, when COVID head and we saw this rise of work from home, it teams were really scrambling and said, okay, I have to light up this, say VPN infrastructure, or I need to now be able to support my users in a work from home situation where I don't control the corporate network. In essence, now you have essentially thousands. Every employee is acting across their own corporate network and people were then using thousand eyes in different ways to be able to monitor their CTPs infrastructure across, back into the corporate network, as well as in using our thousand eyes end point agents that runs on a local, a user's laptop or machine in their home to help you to be able to gain that visibility down to that last mile of connectivity. >>Because when a user calls up support and says, I'm having trouble say accessing my application, whether that's Salesforce or something else, what ultimately might be causing that issue might not necessarily be a Salesforce issue, right? It could be the device in the device performance in terms of CPU, memory utilization. It could be the wifi and the signal quality within your wifi network. It could be your access point. It could be your raw, local home router. It can be your local ISP. It could be the path that you're taking ultimately to your corporate network or that application. There's so many places that could go wrong that are now difficult to be able to see, unless you have the ability to see comprehensively from the user to the application, and to be able to understand that full end to end path, >>You know, it teams have also been disrupted. They've been on offsite prop off property as well, but you've got the cloud. How has your technology helped the it teams? Can you give some examples there? Um, >>Yeah, a great way is, you know, how people use thousand eyes as part of that data sharing ecosystem. Again, that notion of how do you go from visibility to intelligence action and where in the past you might be able as an it administrator to walk over to their network team and say, Hey, can you take a look at what I'm seeing now? That's no longer available. So how do you be able to work efficiently as the United organization? You know, we think a thousand eyes in how our customers are using us a thousand times becomes a common operating language that allows them to be able to analyze across from the application down into the underlying infrastructure, through those different layers of the network what's happening. And where do you need to focus your attention? And then furthermore, with 10,000 eyes in terms of a need, enabling that data sharing ecosystem, leveraging our share link capability really gives them the ability to say, you know, what, here's what I'm seeing and be able to send that to anybody within the it organization. But it goes even further and many times in recent times, as well as over the course of people using thousand eyes, they take those share links and actually send them to their external providers because they're not just looking to resolve issues within their own it organization. They're having to work collaboratively with a different ISP. If they're pairing with, with their cloud providers that they're appearing, uh, they're leveraging, or the SAS applications that are part of that core dependency of how they deliver their experience. >>I asked you the question, we think about levels of visibility and making the lives easier for it. Teams. Um, you see a lot of benefits with thousand eyes. You pointed out a few of them just got to ask you the question. So if I'm an it person I'm in the trenches, are you guys have, uh, an aspirin or a vitamin or both? Can you give an example because there's a lot of pain point out there. So yeah. Give me a cup, a couple Advils and aspirins, but also you're an enabler to the new things are evolving. You pointed out some use case. You talk about the difference between where you're helping people pain points and also enabling them be successful for it teams. >>Yeah, that's a great analogy. You're thinking it, like you said, it definitely sits on both sides of that spectrum, you know, thousand eyes is the trusted tool, the source of truth for it. Organizations when issues are happening as their alarm bells are ringing, as they are generating the, um, the different, uh, on call, uh, to be able to jump into a war situation thousand eyes is that trusted source of truth. Allow them to focus, to be able to resolve that issue in the heat of the moment. But that was a nice also when we think about baselining, your experience, what's important is not understanding that experience at that moment at time, but also how that's deviated over time. And so by leveraging thousand eyes on a continuous basis, it gives you that ability to see the history of that experience, to understand how your network is changing is as you mentioned, networks are constantly evolving, right? >>The internet itself is constantly changing. It's an organic system, and you need to be able to understand not only what are the metrics that are moving out of your bounds, but then what is potentially the cause of that as a network has evolved. And then furthermore, you can be begin to use that as you mentioned, in terms of your vitamin type of an analogy, to be able to understand the health of your system over time on a baseline basis so that you can begin to, uh, be able to ensure its success in a great way to really kind of bring that to light. As people using say, thousand eyes as part of the same se land-based rollout, where you're looking to say benchmark, and you can confidence as you look to scale out in either, you know, benchmarking different ESPs within that, I feel like connectivity for as you look to ensure a level of success with a single branch, give you that competence to then scale out to the rest of your organization. >>That's great insights. The classic financial model ROI got baseline and upside, right? You got handle the baseline as you pointed out, and the upside music experience connectivity, you know, application performance, which drives revenue, et cetera. So great point. Great insight, Joe. Thank you so much for that insight. It's got a final question for you. I want to just riff a little bit with you on the industry. A lot of us have been having debates about automation and who doesn't, who doesn't love automation. Automation is awesome, right? Automate things, but as the trend starts going on, as everything is a service or X, a S as it's called, certainly Cisco's going down that road. Talk about your view about the difference between automation and everything is a service because at the end of the day, everything will be a service, but without automation, you really can't have services, right? So, you know, automation, automation, automation, great, great drum to bang all day long, but then also you got the same business side saying as a service, as a service, pushing that into the products, it means not trivial. Talk about, talk about how you look at automation and everything as a service and the relationship and interplay between those two concepts. >>Yeah. Ultimately I think about in terms of what is the problem that the business is trying to solve in ultimately, what is the deal that they're trying to face? And in many ways, right, they're being exploded with increase of data that needs, they need to be able to not only process and gather, but then be able to then make use of, and then from that, as we mentioned, once you've processed that data and you've said, gather the insights from it. You need to be able to then act on that data. And automation plays a key role of allowing you to be able to then put that through your workflow. Because again, as that, it experience becomes even more complex as more and more services get put into that digital supply chain. As you adopt say increased complexity within your infrastructure, by moving to a multicloud architecture where you look to increase the number of say, network services that you're leveraging across that digital experience. >>Ultimately you need with the level of automation, you'll be able to see outside of your own vantage point. You need to be able to look at the problem from as broad of a, a broad of a way as possible. And, you know, data and automation allows you to be able to do what is fundamentally difficult to do from a very narrow point of view, in terms of the visibility you gather intelligence you generate, and then ultimately, how do you act on that data as quick as possible to be able to provide the value of what you're looking for. >>It's like a feature it's under the hood. The feature of everything comes to the surface is automation, data, machine learning, all the goodness in the software. I mean, that's really kind of what we're talking about here. Isn't it a final question for you as we wrap up, uh, dev net create really, again, is going beyond Cisco's dev net community going into the industry ecosystem where developers are there. Um, these are folks that want infrastructure as code. They want network as code. So network programmability, huge topic. We've been having that conversation, uh, with Cisco and others throughout the industry for the past three years. What's your message to developers out there that are watching this who say, Hey, I just want to develop code. Like I want, you know, you guys got that. That was nice. Thanks so much. You know, you take care of that. I just want to write code. What's your message to those folks out there who want to tap some of these new services, these new automation, these new capabilities, what's your message. >>And ultimately, I think, you know, when you're looking at thousand eyes, um, you know, from a fraud perspective, you know, we try to build our product in an API first model to allow you to be able to then shift left of how you think about that overall experience. And from a developer standpoint, you know, what I'd say is, is that while you're developing in your silo, you're going to be part of a larger ultimate system. In your experience you deliver within your application is now going to be dependent upon not only the infrastructure that's running upon, but the network it's connected to, and then ultimately the user in the sense of that user and by leveraging that thousand eyes and being able to then integrate thousand into how you think closely on that experience, that's going to help ensure that ultimately the application experience that the developer's looking to deliver meets that objective. And I think what I would say is, you know, while you need to focus on your, uh, your role as a developer, having the understanding of how you fit into the larger ecosystem and what the reality of the, of how your users access that application is critical. >>Awesome, Joe, thank you so much. Again, trust is everything letting people understand that what's going on underneath is going to be viable and capable. You guys got a great product and congratulations on the acquisition that Cisco made of your company. We've been following you guys for a long time and a great technology chops, great market traction, congratulations to everyone, 1,009. Thanks for coming on sharing. I appreciate it. Thanks Joe Vaccaro, vice president of product here, but thousand nine is now part of Cisco, John, for your host of the cube cube virtual for dev net, create virtual. Thanks for watching. >>Even prior to the pandemic, there was a mandate to automate the hyperscale cloud companies. They've shown us that to scale. You really have to automate you human labor. It just can't keep up with the pace of technology. Now, post COVID that automation mandate is even more pressing. Now what about the marketplace? What are S E seeing on the horizon? The cubes Jeff Frick speaks with Cisco engineers to gather their insights and explore the definite specialized partner program. We've got a Coon Jacobs. He's the director of systems engineering for Cisco. >>Good to see Kuhn. >>Thank you for having me >>Joining him as Eric nip. He is the VP of system systems engineering for Cisco. Good to see Eric. Good to be here. Thank you. Pleasure. So before we jump into kind of what's going on now in this new great world of programmability and, and control, I want to kind of go back to the future for a minute because when I was doing some research for this interview, it was cool. I saw an old presentation that you were giving from 2006 about the changing evolution of the, uh, the changing evolution of networking and moving from. I think that the theme was a human centered human centered network. And you were just starting to touch a little bit on video and online video. Oh my goodness, how far we have come, but I would love to get kind of a historical perspective because we've been talking a lot and I know Eric son plays football about the football analogy of the network is kind of like an offensive lineman where if they're doing a good job, you don't hear much about them, but they're really important to everything. >>And the only time you hear about them as the women, the flag gets thrown. So if you look back with the historical perspective, the load and the numbers and the evolution of the network, as we've moved to this modern time, and, you know, thank goodness cause of COVID hit five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, all of us in the information space would not have been able to make this transition. So I just, I just love to get some historical perspective cause you've been kind of charting this and mapping this for a very long time. >>Yeah. W we absolutely have. I think, you know, what you're referring to was back in the day, the human network campaign, and to your point, the load, the number of hosts that traffic that just overall, the intelligence of the network has just evolved tremendously over these last decade and a half, uh, 15 years or so. And you look at where we are now in terms of the programmable nature of the network and what that enables in terms of new degrees of relevance that we can create for the customers and how, you know, the role of it has changed entirely again, especially during this pandemic, you know, the fact that it's now as a serve as an elastic is absolutely fundamental to being able to ensure, uh, on an ongoing basis, a great customer experience. And so, uh, it's been, it's been, uh, a very interesting ride. >>And then just to close the loop, the, one of your more later interviews talking to Sylvia, your question is, are you a developer or an engineer? So it was, and, and your whole advice to all these network engineers is just, just don't jump in and start doing some coding and learning. So, you know, the focus and really the emphasis and where the opportunity to differentiate as a company is completely shifting gears over to the, you know, really software defined side. >>Oh, absolutely. So I mean, you look at how the software world and the network has come together and how we're applying now, you know, basically the same construct of CIC pipeline to network, uh, infrastructure, look at network really as, and get all of the benefits from that. And the familiarity of it, the way that our engineers have had to evolve. And that is just, you know, quite, quite significant in, in, in like the skill set. And the best thing is jump in, right. You know, dip your toe in the water, but continue to evolve that skill set. And, you know, don't, don't be shy. It's a leap of faith for some of us who've been in the industry a bit longer. We like to look at ourselves as the craftsman of the network, but now it's definitely a software centricity and programmability, right? >>So Eric, you've got some digital exhaust out there too, that I was able to dig up going back to 2002 752 page book and the very back corner of a dark dirty dusty Amazon warehouse is managing Cisco network security, 752 pages. Wow. How has security change from a time where before I could just read a book, a big book, you know, throw some protocols in and probably block a bunch of ports to the world that we live in today, where everything is connected. Everything is API driven, everything is software defined. You've got pieces of workloads spread out all over the place and Oh, by the way, you need to bake security in at every single level of the application stack. >>Yeah, no, I'm so, wow. The kudos that you, you found that book I'm really impressed. There was a thank you a little street, correct. So I want to hit on something that you, you talked about. Cause I think it's very important to, to this overall conversation. If we think about the scale of the network and Coon hit on it briefly, you talked about it as well. We're seeing a massive explosion of devices by the estimated by the end of this year, there's going to be about 27 billion devices on the global internet. That's about 3.7 devices for every man, woman and child life. And if we extrapolate that out over the course of the next decade on the growth trajectory we're on. And if you look at some of the published research on this, it's estimated there could be upwards of 500 billion devices accessing the global internet on a, on a daily basis in the primarily that, that, that is a IOT devices, that's digitally connected devices. >>Anything that can be connected will be connected, but then introduces a really interesting security challenge because every one of those devices that is accessing the global internet is within a company's infrastructure or accessing pieces of corporate data is a potential attack factor. So we really need to, and I think the right expression for this is we need to reimagine security because security is, as you said, not about parameters. You know, I wrote that book back in 2002, I was talking about firewalls and a cutting edge technology was intrusion prevention and intrusion detection. Now we need to look at security really in the, in the guys up or under the, under the, under the realm of really two aspects, the identity who is accessing the data and the context, what data is being accessed. And that is going to require a level of intelligence, a level of automation and the technologies like machine learning and automated intelligence are going to be our artificial intelligence rather are going to be table stakes because of the sheer scale of what we're trying to secure is going to be untenable under current, you know, just current security practices. I mean, the network is going to have to be incredibly intelligent and leverage again, a lot of that, uh, that AI type of data to match patterns of potential attacks and ideally shut them down before they ever cause any type of damage. >>Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, one thing that COVID has done a bunk many things is kind of retaught us all about the power of exponential curves and how extremely large those things are and how fast they grow. We at Dave runs it on a Google cloud a couple of years ago. And I remember him talking about early days at Google when they were starting to map out kind of, as you described kind of map out their growth curves, and they just figured out they could not hire if they hired everybody, they couldn't hire enough people to deal with it. Right. So really kind of rethinking automation and rethinking about the way that you manage these things and the level, right. The old, is it a pet or is it, or is it, um, uh, part of a herd and, and I think it's interesting what you talked about, uh, con really the human powered internet and being driven by a lot of this video, but to what you just said, Eric, the next big wave, right. >>Is IOT and five G. And I think, you know, you talk about 3.7 million devices per person. That's nothing compared to right. All these sensors and all these devices and all these factories, because five G is really targeted to machine the machines, which there's a lot of them and they trade a lot of information really, really quickly. So, you know, I want to go back to you Coon thinking about this next great wave in a five G IOT kind of driven world where it's kind of like when voice kind of fell off compared to IP traffic on the network. I think you're going to see the same thing, kind of human generated data relative to machine generated data is also going to fall off dramatically as a machine generated data just skyrocket through the roof. >>Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think too, also what Eric touched on the visibility on that, and they've been able to process that data at the edge. That's going to catalyze cloud adoption even further, and it's going to, you know, make the role of the network, the connectivity of it all and the security within that crucially important. And then you look at the role of programmability within that. We're seeing the evolution going so fast. You look at the element of the software defined network in an IOT speed space. We see that we have a host Sarah that are not necessarily, um, you know, behaving like other hosts would, uh, on a network, for example, manufacturing floor, uh, production robot, or a security camera. And what we're seeing is we're seeing, you know, partners and customers employing programmability to make sure that we overcome some of the shortcomings, uh, in terms of where the network is at, but then how do you customize it in terms of the relevance that can provide, >>Um, bringing on board those, uh, those hosts in a very transparent way, and then, you know, keep, keep the agility of it and keep the speed of innovation going. >>So, Eric, I want to come back to you and shift gears kind of back to the people will leave the IOT in the machines along, along for a minute, but I'm curious about what does beat the boss. I mean, I go to your LinkedIn profile and it's just filled with congratulatory statements, but everyone's talking about beating the boss. You know, it's, it's a really, you know, kind of interesting and different way to, to motivate people, to build this new skillset in terms of getting software certifications, uh, within the Cisco world. And I just thought it was really cute the way that you, uh, clearly got people motivated, cause there's posts all over the place and they've all got their, their nice big badge or their certification, but, you know, at a higher level, it is a different motivation to be a developer versus an you're an a technician. And it's kind of a different point of view. And I just wonder if you could share, you know, some of the ways that you're, you're kind of encouraging, you know, kind of this transformation within your own workforce, as well as the partners, et cetera, and really adopting kind of almost a software first and this program kind of point of view versus, you know, I'm just wiring stuff up. >>Apparently a lot of people like to beat me. So I mean, not itself was a, was a, a, it was a great success, but you know, if we think we take a step back, you know, what is Cisco about as an organization? Um, I mean, obviously he looked back to the very early days of our vision, right? It was, it was to change the way the world worked, played, live and learn. And that you think about, and you hit on this when we were, you know, we were discussion with co with Kuhn in the early days of COVID. We really saw that play out as so much shifted from, you know, in-person type of interactions to virtual interactions in the network that, uh, that our, our customers, our partners, our employees built over the course of the last several years, the last three decades really helped the world continue to, um, to, to do business for students to continue to go to school or clinicians, to connect with patients. >>If I think about that mission to me, programmability is just the next iteration of that mission, continuing to enable the world to communicate, continuing, to enable customers, employees, uh, partners, uh, to essentially leverage the network for more than just connectivity now to leverage it for critical insight. Again, if we look at some of the, uh, some of the use cases that we're seeing for social distancing and contact tracing and network has a really important place to play there because we can pull insight from it, but it isn't necessarily an out of the box type of integration. So I look at programmability and in what we're doing with, with dev net to give relevance to the network for those types of really critical conversations that every organization is having right now, it's a way to extrapolate. It's a way to pull critical data so that I can make a decision. >>And if that is automated, or if that decision requires some type of manual intervention, regardless, we're still about connecting. And in this case, we're connecting insight with the people who need it most, right. The debit challenge we ran is really in respect for how critical this new skill set is going to be. It's not enough, like I said, just to connect the world anymore. We need to leverage that network, the network for that critical insight. And when we drove, we were, we created the beat, the boss challenge. It was really simple. Hey guys, I think this is important and I am going to go out and I'm going to achieve the certification myself, because I don't want to continue to be very relevant. I want to continue to be able to provide that insight for my customers and partners. So therefore I'm going for anybody that can get there before me. Maybe there's a little incentive tied to it and the incentive, although it's funny, we interviewed a lot of, a lot of our team who, who achieved it when incentive was secondary, they just wanted to have the bragging rights, like yeah, I beat Eric. Right? >>Right. Absolutely. No, it's a, it's it, you know, putting your money where your mouth is, right. If it's important, then why you should do it too. And, and you know, the whole, you're not asking people to do what you wouldn't do yourself. So I think there's a lot of good leadership, uh, leadership lessons there as well, but I want to extend kind of the conversation on the covert impact, right? Cause I'm sure you've seen all the social media means, you know, who's driving your digital transformation, the CEO, the CMO or COVID. And we all know the answer to the question, but you know, you guys have already been dealing with kind of an increased complexity around enterprise infrastructure world in terms of cloud and public cloud and hybrid cloud and multi cloud. And people are trying to move stuff all the way around now suddenly had this COVID moment right in, in March, which is really a light switch moment. >>People didn't have time to plan or prepare for suddenly everybody working from home. And it's not only you, but your spouse and your kids and everybody else. So I, but now we're six months plus into this thing. And I would just love to get your perspective and kind of the change from, Oh my goodness, we have to react to the light switch moment. What do we do to make sure people can, can get, get what they need when they need it from where they are a bubble, but then really moving from this is a, an emergency situation, a stop gap situation to, Hmm, this is going to extend for some period of time. And even when it's the acute crisis is over, you know, this is going to drive a real change in the way that people communicate in the way that people, where they sit and do their jobs and, and kind of how customers are responding accordingly as the, you know, kind of the narrative has changed from an emergency stop gap to this is the new normal that we really need to plan for. >>So, uh, I think, I think you said it very well. I think anything that could be digitized, any, any interaction that could be driven virtually was, and what's interesting is we, as you said, we went from that light switch moment where I, and I believe the status, this, and I'll probably get number wrong, but like in the United States here at the beginning, at the end of February, about 2% of the knowledge worker population was virtual, you know, working from home or in a, in a remote work environment. And over the course of about 11 days, that number went from 2% to 70%. Wow. Interesting that it worked, you know, there was a lot of hiccups along the way, and there was a lot of organizations making really quick decisions on how do I enable VPN scale of mass? How do I leverage, uh, you know, things like WebEx for virtual meetings and virtual connectivity, uh, much faster now that as you said, that we kind of gotten out of the fog of, of, of war for our fog of battle organizations are looking at what they accomplished. >>And it was nothing short of Herculean and looking at this now from a transition to, Oh my gosh, we need to change too. We have an opportunity to change. And we're looking, we see a lot of organizations specifically around, uh, financial services, healthcare, uh, the, uh, the K through 20, uh, educational environment, all looking at how can they do more virtually for a couple of reasons. Obviously there is a significant safety factor. And again, we're still in that we're still on the height of this pandemic. They want to make sure their employees, their customers, students, patients remain safe. But second, um, we've found in, in discussions with a lot of senior it executives that our customers, that people are happier working from home, people are more productive working from home. And that, again, the network that's been built over the course of the last few decades has been resilient enough to allow that to happen. >>And then third, there is a potential cost savings here outside of people. The next most expensive resource that organizations are paying for is real estate. If they can shrink that real estate footprint while providing a better user experience at the locations that they're maintaining, again, leveraging things like location services, leveraging things like a unified collaboration. That's very personalized to the end user's experience. They're going to do that. And again, they're going to save money. They're going to have happier employees and ultimately they're going to make their, uh, their employees and their customers a lot safer. So we see, we believe that there is in some parts of the economy, a shift that is going to be more permanent and some estimates put it as high as 15% of the current workforce is going to stay in there in a virtual or a semi virtual working environment for the foreseeable future. >>And I, and I, and I would say, I'd say 15% is low, especially if you, if you qualify it with, you know, part time, right. I, there was a great interview we were doing and talking about working from home, we used to work from home as the exception, right? Cause the cable person was coming, are you getting a new washing machine or something where now that's probably getting, you know, in many cases we'll shift to the other where I'm generally gonna work from home unless, you know, somebody is in town or having an important meeting or there's some special collaboration that drives me to be in. But you know, I want to go back to you Kuhn and, and really doubled down on, you know, I think most people spent too much time focusing, especially, we'll just say within the virtual events base where we play on the things you can't do virtually, we can't meet in the hall. >>We can't grab a quick coffee and a drink instead of focusing on the positive things like we're accomplishing right here, you're in Belgium, right. Eric is in Ohio, we're in California. Um, and you know, we didn't take three days to, to travel and, and check into a hotel and all that stuff to get together, uh, for this period of time. So there's a lot of stuff that digital enables. And I think, you know, people need to focus more on that versus continuing to focus on the two or three things that, that it doesn't replace and it doesn't replace those. So let's just get that off the table and move on with our lives. Cause those aren't coming back anytime soon. >>No, totally. I think it's the balance of those things. It's guarding the fact that you're not necessarily working for home. I think the trick there is you could be sleeping at the office, but I think the positives are way, way more outspoken. Um, I, you know, I look at myself, I got much more exercise time in these last couple of months than I usually do because you don't travel. You don't have the jet lag and the connection. And then you talked about those face to face moments. I think a lot of people are in a way, um, wanting to go back to the office part time as, as Eric also explained. But a lot of it you can do virtually we have virtual coffees with team or, you know, even here in Belgium, our, our local general manager has a virtual effort. TIF every Friday obviously skipped the one this week. But, uh, you know, there's, there's ways to be very creative with the technology and the quality of the technology that the network enables, um, you know, to, to get the best of both worlds. Right? >>So I just, we're going to wrap the segment. I want to give you guys both the last word you both been at Cisco for a while and, you know, Susie, we, and the team on dev net has really grown this thing. I think we were there at the very beginning couple of four, five, six years ago. I can't keep track of time anymore, but you know, it's really, really grown and, you know, the timing is terrific to get into this more software defined world, which is where we are. I wonder if you could just, you know, kind of share a couple thoughts as you know, with a little bit of perspective and you know, what you're excited about today and kind of what you see coming down the road since you guys have been there for a while you've been in this space, uh, let's start with Yukon. >>I think the possibility it creates, I think really programmability software defined is really about the art of the possible it's what you can dream up and then go code. Um, uh, Eric talked about the relevance of it and how it maximizes that relevance on a customer basis. Um, you know, and then it is the evolution of, of the teams in terms of the creativity that they can bring to it. Uh, we're seeing really people dive into that and customers, um, co-creating with us. And I think that's where we're going in terms of like the evolution of the value proposition there in terms of what technology >>Can provide, but also how it impacts people. Has it been discussed and redefines process? >>I love that the art of the possible, which is a lot harder to execute in a, in hardware than software certainly takes a lot longer. I'd love to get your, uh, your thoughts. >>Absolutely. So I started my career at Cisco, uh, turning, uh, putting IP phones onto the network. And back then, you know, it was, you know, 2001, 2002, when, uh, the idea of putting telephones onto the network was such a, um, just such an objectionable idea. And so many purists were telling us all the reasons it wouldn't work. Now, if we go forward again, 19 years, the idea of not having them plugging into the network is a ridiculous idea. So we have a, we're looking at an inflection point in this industry, and it's really, it's not about programming. It's not necessarily about programming. It's about doing it smarter. It's about being more efficient. It's about driving automation, but again, it is, it's about unlocking the value of what the network is. We've moved so far past. What can, you know, just connectivity, the network touches everything and it's more workload moves to the cloud is more workload moves to things like containers. >>Um, the network is the really, the only common element that ties all of these things together. The network needs to take its rightful place, uh, in the end, the, it lexicon as being that critical or that poor critical insight provider, um, for, for how users are interacting with the network, how users are interacting with applications, how applications are interacting with them in another program, ability is a way to do that more efficiently, uh, with greater a greater degree of certainty with much greater relevance into the overall delivery of it services and digitization. So to me, I think we're going to look back 20 years from now, probably even 10 and say, man, we used to configure things manually. What was that like? And I think, I think really this is, this is the future. And I think we want to be aligned with where we're going versus where we've been. >>All right. Well, Coon, Eric, thank you for, for sharing your perspective. You know, it's, it's really nice to have, you know, some historical reference, uh, and it's also nice to be living in a new age where you can, you can, you know, stay at the same company and, and still refresh, you know, new challenges, new opportunities and grow this thing. Cause as you said, I remember those IP first IP phone days and I thought, well, mob bell must be happy because the old mother's day problem is finally solved when we don't have to have a dedicated connection between every mother and every child in the middle of may. So good news. So thank you very much for sharing your, uh, your insights and really, uh, really enjoyed the >>Thank you. >>We've been covering dev net create for a number of years. I think since the very first show and Susie, we and the team really built a practice, built a company, built a lot of momentum around software in the Cisco ecosystem and in getting devs really to start to build applications and drive kind of the whole software defined networking thing forward. And a big part of that is partners and working with partners and, and developing solutions and, you know, using brain power, that's outside of the four walls of Cisco. So we're excited to have, uh, our next guest, uh, a partner for someone is Brad Hoss. He is the engineering director for dev ops at Presidio, Brad. Great to see you. >>Hey Jeff, great to be here. >>Absolutely. And joining him is Chuck Stickney. Chuck is the business development architect for Cisco dev net partners. And he has been driving a whole lot of partner activity for a very long period of time. Chuck, great to see you. >>Thanks Jeff. Great to be here and looking forward to this conversation. >>Absolutely. So let's, let's start with you Chuck, because I think, um, you know, you're leading this kind of partner effort and, and you know, software defined, networking has been talked about for a long time and you know, it's really seems to be maturing and, and software defined everything right. Has been taking over, especially with, with virtualization and moving the flexibility and the customer program ability customability in software and Mo and taking some of that off the hardware. Talk about, you know, the programs that you guys are putting together and how important it is to have partners to kind of move this whole thing forward, versus just worrying about people that have Cisco badges. >>Yeah, Jeff, absolutely. So along this whole journey of dev net where we're, we're trying to leverage that customization and innovation built on top of our Cisco platforms, most of Cisco's businesses transacted through partners. And what we hear from our customers and our partners is they want to, our customers want to way to be able to identify, does this partner have the capabilities and the skills necessary to help me go down this automation journey I'm trying to do, do a new implementation. I want to automate that. How can I find a partner to, to get there? And then we have some of our partners that have been building these practices going along the step in that journey with us for the last six years, they really want to say, Hey, how can I differentiate myself against my competitors and give an edge to my customers to show them that, yes, I have these capabilities. I've built a business practice. I have technology, I have technologists that really understand this capability and they have the net certifications to prove it, help me be able to differentiate myself throughout our ecosystem. So that's really what our Danette partner specialization is all about. >>Right. That's great. And Brad, you're certainly one of those partners and I want to get your perspective because partners are oftentimes a little bit closer to the customer cause you've got your kind of own set of customers that you're building solutions and just reflect on, we know what happened, uh, back in March 15th, when basically everybody was told to go home and you can't go to work. So, you know, there's all the memes and social media about who, you know, who pushed forward your digital transformation, the CEO, the CMO or COVID. And we all know what the answer is, whatever you can share some information as to what happened then, and really for your business and your customers, and then reflect now we're six months into it months plus, and, and you know, this new normal is going to continue for a while. How's the customer attitudes kind of changed now that they're kind of buckled down past the light switch moment and really we need to put in place some foundation to carry forward for a very long time potentially. >>Yeah, it's really quite interesting actually, you know, when code first hit, we got a lot of requests to help with automation of provisioning our customers and in the whole digital transformation got really put on hold for a little bit there and I'd say it became more of, of the workplace transformation. So we were quickly, uh, you know, migrating customers to, you know, new typologies where instead of the, the, you know, users sitting in those offices, they were sitting at home and we had to get them connected rapidly in a, we have a lot of success there in those beginning months with, you know, using automation and programmability, um, building, you know, provisioning portals for our customers to get up and running really fast. Um, and that, that, that was what it looked like in those early days. And then over time, I'd say that's the asks from our customers has started to transition a little bit. >>You know, now they're asking, you know, how can I take advantage of the technology to, you know, look at my offices in a different way, you know, for example, you know, how many people are coming in and out of those locations, you know, what's the usage of my conference rooms. Um, are there, uh, are there, um, situations where I can use that information? Like how many people are in the building and at a certain point in time and make real estate decisions on that, you know, like, do I even need this office anymore? So, so the conversations have really changed in ways that you couldn't have imagined before March. Right. >>And I wonder with, with you Chuck, in terms of the Cisco point of view, I mean, the network is amazing. It had had, COVID struck five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, clearly there's a lot of industries that are suffering badly entertainment, um, restaurant, business, transportation, they, you know, hospitality, but for those of us in kind of the information industry, the switch was pretty easy. Um, you know, and, and the network enables the whole thing. And so I wonder if, you know, kind of from your perspective as, as suddenly, you know, the importance of the network, the importance of security and the ability now to move to this new normal very quickly from a networking perspective. And then on top of that, having, you know, dev net with, with the software defined on top, you guys were pretty much in a good space as good as space as you could be given this new challenge thrown at you. >>Yeah, Jeff, we completely agree with that. A new Cisco has pushed the idea that the network is transformational. The network is the foundation, and as our customers have really adopted that message, it is enabled that idea for the knowledge workers to be able to continue on. So for myself, I've, I've worked for home the entire time I've been at Cisco. So the last 13 years, this is, you know, the, the change to the normalcy is I never get on a plane anymore, but my day to day functions are still the same. And it's built because of the capabilities we have with the network. I think the transition that we've seen in the industry, as far as kind of moving to that application type of economy, as we go to microservices, as we go to a higher dependency upon cloud, those things have really enabled the world really to be able to better respond to this, to this COVID situation. And I think it's helped to, to justify the investments that's that our customers have made as well as what our partners have been, being able to do to deliver on that multicloud capability, to take those applications, get them closer to the end user instead of sitting in a common data center and then making it more applicable to, to users wherever they may be, not just inside of that traditional form. >>Right. Right. It's interesting that Brad, you, you made a comment on another interview. I was watching getting ready for this one in terms of, uh, applications now being first class citizens was, was what you said. And it's kind of interesting coming from an infrastructure point of view, where before it was, you know, what do I have and what can I build on it now really it's the infrastructure that responds back to the application. And even though you guys are both in the business of, of networking and infrastructure, it's still this recognition that apps first is the way to go, because that gives people the competitive advantage that it gives them the ability to react in the marketplace and to innovate and move faster. So, you know, it's, it's a really interesting twist to be able to support an application first, by having a software defined in a more programmable infrastructure stack. >>Yeah, no doubt. And, you know, I think that the whole push to cloud was really interesting in the early days, it was like, Hey, we're going to change our applications to be cloud first. You know? And then I think the terminology changed over time, um, to more cloud native. So when we, when we look at what cloud has done over the past five years with customers moving, you know, their, their assets into the cloud in the early days that we were all looking at it just like another data center, but what it's really become is a place to host your applications. So when we talk about cloud migrations with our customers now, we're, we're no longer talking about, you know, the assets per se, we're talking about the applications and what did those applications look like? And even what defines an application right now, especially with the whole move to cloud native and microservices in the automation that helps make that all happen with infrastructure as code. >>You're now able to bundle the infrastructure with those applications together as a single unit. So when you define that application, as infrastructure, as code the application in this definition of what those software assets for the infrastructure are, all are wrapped together and you've got change control, version control, um, and it's all automated, you know, it's, it's a beautiful thing. And I think it's something that we've all kind of hoped would happen. You know, in, when I look back at the early definitions of software defined networking, I think everybody was trying to figure it out and they didn't really fully understand what that meant now that we can actually define what that network infrastructure could look like as it's, as it's wrapped around that application in a code template, maybe that's Terraform or Ansible, whatever that might be, whatever method or tool that you're using to bring it all together. It's, you know, it's really interesting now, I think, I think we've gotten to the point where it's starting to make a lot more sense than, you know, those early days of SDN, uh we're out, you know, it was, was it a controller or is it a new version of SNMP? You know, now it makes sense it's actually something tangible. >>Right, right. But still check, as you said, right. There's still a lot of API APIs and there's still a lot of component pieces to these applications that are all run off the network that all have to fit, uh, that had to fit together. You know, we cover PagerDuty summit and you know, their whole thing is trying to find out where the, where the problems are within the very few microseconds that you have before the customer abandons their shopping cart or whatever the particular application. So again, the network infrastructure and the program ability super important. But I wonder if you could speak to the automation because there's just too much stuff going on for individual people to keep track of and they shouldn't be keeping track of it because they need to be focusing on the important stuff, not this increasing amount of bandwidth and traffic going through the network. >>Yeah, absolutely. Jeff said the bandwidth that's necessary in order to support everybody working from home to support this video conference. I mean, we used to do this sitting face to face. Now we're doing this over the internet. The amount of people necessary to, to be able to facilitate that type of traffic. If we're doing it the way we did 10 years ago, we would not scale it's automation. That makes that possible. That allows us to look higher up the ability to do that. Automatic provisional provisioning. Now that we're in microservices now, everything is cloud native. We have the ability to, to better, to better adjust, to and adapt to changes that happen with the infrastructure below hand. So if something goes wrong, we can very quickly spend something ups to take that load off where traditionally it was open up a ticket. Let me get someone in there, let me fix it. >>Now it's instantaneously identify the solution, go to my playbook, figure out exactly what solution I need to deploy and put that out there. And the network engineering team, the infrastructure engineering team, they just simply need to get notified that this happened. And as long as there's traceability and a point that Brad made, as far as you being able to go through here doing the automation of the documentation side of it. I know when I was a network engineer, one of the last things we ever did was documentation. But now that we have the API is from the infrastructure. And then the ability to tie that into other systems like an IP address management or a change control, or a trouble ticketing system, that whole idea of I made an infrastructure change. And now I can automatically do that documentation update and record. I know who did it. I know when they did it and I know what they did, and I know what the test results were even five years ago, that was fantasy land. Now, today that's just the new normal, that's just how we all operate. Right. >>Right, right. So I want to get your take on the other side, >>Cloud multicloud >>Public cloud, you know, as, as I think you said Brad, when public cloud first came out, there was kind of this, this rush into, we're going to throw everything in there then for, for, for different reasons. People decided maybe that's not the best, the best solution, but really it's horses for courses. Right. And, and I think it was pretty interesting that, that you guys are all supporting the customers that are trying to figure out where they're going to put their workloads. And Oh, by the way, that might not be a static place, right. It might be moving around based on, you know, maybe I do my initial dev and, and, and Amazon. And then when I go into production, maybe I want to move it into my data center and then maybe I'm having a big promotion or something I want to flex capability. So from, from your perspective in helping customers work through this, cause still there's a lot of opinions about what is multicloud, what is hybrid cloud and you know, it's horses for courses, how are you helping people navigate that? And what does having programmable infrastructure enable you to do for helping customers kind of sort through, you know, everybody talks about their journey. I think there's still, you know, kind of bumbling down, bumbling down paths, trying to find new things, what works, what doesn't work. And I think it's still really early days and trying to mesh all this stuff together. Yeah, >>Yeah. No doubt. It is still early days. And you know, I, I, I go back to it being application centric because, you know, being able to understand that application, when you move to the cloud, it may not look like what it used to look like when you, when you move it over there, you may be breaking parts off of it. Some of them might be running on a platform as a service while other pieces of it are running as infrastructure as service. And some of it might still be in your data center. Those applications are becoming much more complex than they used to be because we're breaking them apart into different services. Those services could live all over the place. So with automation, we really gain the power of being able to combine those things. As I mentioned earlier, those resources, wherever they are and be defined in that infrastructure as code and automation. >>But you know, aside from, I think we focus a lot about provisioning. When we talk about automation, we also have these amazing capabilities on, on the side of, uh, operations too. Like we've got streaming telemetry, and the ability to gain insights into what's going on in ways that we didn't have before, or at least in the, in, you know, in the early days of monitoring software, right? You knew exactly what that device was, where it was. It probably had a friendly name, like maybe it was, uh, something from the Hobbit right now. You've got things coming up and spinning and spinning up and spinning down, moving all over the place. In that thing. You used to know what that was. Now you have to quickly figure out where it went. So the observability factor is a huge thing that I think everybody, um, should be paying attention to attention, to moving forward with regards to when you're moving things to the cloud or even to other data centers or, you know, in your premise, I'm breaking that into microservices. >>You really need to understand what's going on. And the, you know, programmability and API APIs and, you know, yang models are tied into streaming telemetry. Now there's just so many great things coming out of this, you know, and it's all like a data structure that, that people who are going down this path and the dev net path there, they're learning these data structures and being able to rationalize and make sense of that. And once you understand that, then all of these things come together, whether it's cloud or a router or switch, um, Amazon, you know, it doesn't matter. You're on, you're all speaking a common language, which is that data structure. >>That's great. Chuck, I want to shift gears a little bit. Cause there was something that you said in another interview when I was getting ready for this one about, about in a dev net, really opening up a whole different class of partners for Cisco, um, as, as really more of a software, a software lead versus kind of the traditional networking lead. I wonder if you can put a little more color on that. Um, because clearly as you said, partners are super important. It's your primary go to market and, and Presidios, I'm sure the best partner that you have in the whole world that's and you know, you said there's some, there's some, you know, non traditional people that would not ever be a Cisco partner that suddenly you guys are playing with because of really the software lead. >>Yeah. Jeff that's exactly right. So as we've been talking to folks with dev nets and whether it'd be at one of the Cisco live events in the dev net zone or the prior dev net create events, we'll have, we'll have people come up to us who Cisco today views as a, as a customer because they're not in our partner ecosystem. They want to be able to deliver these capabilities to our customers, but they have no interest in being in the resell market. This what we're doing with the doublet that gives us the ability to bring those partners into the ecosystem, share them with our extremely large dev net community so they can get access to those, to those potential customers. But also it allows us to do partner to partner type of integration. So Brad and Presidio, they built a fantastic networking. They always have the fantastic networking business, but they've built this fantastic automation business that's there, but they may come into, into a scenario where it's working with a vertical or working with the technology case that they may not have an automation practice for. >>We can leverage some of these software specific partners to come in there and do a joint, go to markets where, so they can go where that traditional channel partner can leverage their deep Cisco knowledge in those customer relationships that they have and bring in that software partner almost as a subcontractor to help them deliver that additional business value on top of that traditional stack, that brings us to this business outcomes that the customers are looking for and a much faster fashion and a much more collaborative fashion. That's terrific. Well, again, it's a, it's, it's unfortunate that we can't be in person. I mean, the, the Cisco dev net shows, you know, they're still small, they're still intimate. There's still a lot of, uh, information sharing and, you know, great to see you. And like I said, we've been at the computer museum, I think the last couple of years and in, in San Francisco. So I look forward to a time that we can actually be together, uh, maybe, maybe for next year's event, but, uh, thank you very much for stopping by and sharing the information. Really appreciate it. Happy to be here from around the globe. It's the cube presenting, accelerating automation with Devin brought to you by Cisco. >>When I'm Sean for the cube, your host for accelerating automation with dev net, with Cisco, and we're here to close out the virtual event with Mindy Whaley, senior director, Mandy, take it away. >>Thank you, John. It's been great to be here at this virtual event and hearing all these different automation stories from our different technology groups, from customers and partners. And what I'd like to take a minute now is to let people know how they can continue this experience at DevNet create, which is our free virtual event happening globally. On October 13th, there's going to be some really fun stuff. We're going to have our annual demo jam, which is kind of like an open mic for demos, where the community gets to show what they've been building. We're also going to be, um, giving out and recognizing our dev net creator award winners for this year, which is a really great time where we recognize our community contributors who have been giving back to the community throughout the year. And then we find really interesting channels. We have our creators channels, which is full of technical talks, lightening talks. >>This is where our community, external Cisco people come in share what they've been working on, what they've been working learning during the year. We also have a channel called API action, which is where you can go deep into, you know, IOT or collaboration or data center automation and get demos talks from engineers on how to do certain use cases. And also a new segment called street from engineering, where you get to hear from the engineers, building those products as well. And we have a start now for those people just getting started, who may need to dive into some basics around coding, API APIs and get that's a whole channel dedicated to getting them started so that they can start to participate in some of the fun challenges that we're going to have during the event. And we're going to have a few fun things. Like we have some definite advocate team members who are awesome, musically talented. They're going to share some performances with us. So, um, we encourage everyone to join us there. Pick your favorite channel, uh, join us in whichever time zone you live in. Cause we'll be in three different time zones. And, um, we would love for you to be there and to hear from you during the event. Thanks so much. >>That's awesome. Very innovative, multiple time zones, accelerating automation with dev net. Thank you so much for watching and we'll see you at dev net create thanks for watching.

>>Hello everyone. This is Dave Volante, and I want to welcome you to the cubes presentation of accelerating automation with Devon it in this special program, we're going to explore how to accelerate digital transformation and how the global pandemic is changing the way we work and the kinds of work that we do, the cube has pulled together experts from Cisco dev net. Now dev net is essentially Cisco as code. I've said many times in the cube that in my opinion, it's the most impressive initiative coming out of any established enterprise infrastructure company. What Cisco has done brilliantly with dev net is to create an API economy by leveraging its large infrastructure portfolio and its ecosystem. But the linchpin of dev net is the army of trained Cisco engineers, including those with the elite CC I E designation. Now dev net was conceived to train people on how to code infrastructure and develop applications in integrations. >>It's a platform to create new value and automation is a key to that creativity. So today you're going to hear from a number of experts. For example, TK key Anini is a distinguished engineer and a security pro. He's going to join us, his colleagues, Thomas Scheiber and Joe Vaccaro. They're going to help us understand how to apply automation to your data center networks, cloud, and security journeys. Cisco's Eric nip and Coon Jacobs will also be here with a look into Cisco's marketplace shifts. We'll also hear from dev net partners. Now let's kick things off with the architect of dev net, senior vice president and general manager of Cisco's dev net and CX ecosystem success. Susie, we roam around the globe. It's the cube presenting >>Decelerating automation with damnit >>Brought to you by Cisco. >>Hello and welcome to the cube. I'm Sean for a year host. We've got a great conversation, a virtual event, accelerating automation with dev net, Cisco dev net. And of course we got the Cisco brain trust here, our cube alumni, Susie wee vice president, senior vice president GM, and also CTO of Cisco dev net and ecosystem success CX, all that great stuff. Any Wade Lee, who's the director, a senior director of dev net certifications, Eric field, director of developer advocacy, Susie Mandy, Eric. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you, John. So we're not in first, then we don't, can't be at the dev net zone. We can't be on site doing dev net, create all the great stuff we've been doing over the past few years. We're virtual the cube virtual. Thanks for coming on. Uh, Susie, I got to ask you because you know, we've been talking years ago when you started this mission and just the success you had has been awesome, but dev net create has brought on a whole nother connective tissue to the dev net community. This is what this ties into the theme, accelerating automation with dev net, because you said to me, I think four years ago, everything should be a service or X, a AAS as it's called and automation plays a critical role. Um, could you please share your vision because this is really important and still only five to 10% of the enterprises have containerized things. So there's a huge growth curve coming with developing and programmability. What's your, what's your vision? >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what we know is that as more and more businesses are coming online as well, I mean, they're all online, but as they're growing into the cloud is they're growing in new areas. As we're dealing with security is everyone's dealing with the pandemic. There's so many things going on, but what happens is there's an infrastructure that all of this is built on and that infrastructure has networking. It has security, it has all of your compute and everything that's in there. And what matters is how can you take a business application and tie it to that infrastructure? How can you take, you know, customer data? How can you take business applications? How can you connect up the world securely and then be able to, you know, really satisfy everything that businesses need. And in order to do that, you know, the whole new tool that we've always talked about is that the network is programmable. The infrastructure is programmable and you don't need just apps writing on top, but now they get to use all of that power of the infrastructure to perform even better. And in order to get there, what you need to do is automate everything. You can't configure networks manually. You can't be manually figuring out policies, but you want to use that agile infrastructure in which you can really use automation. You can rise to higher level business processes and tie all of that up and down the staff by leveraging automation. >>You know, I remember a few years ago when dev net created for started, I interviewed Todd Nightingale and we were talking about Meraki, you know, not to get in the weeds, but you know, switches and hubs and wireless. But if you look at what we were talking about, then this is kind of what's going on now. And we were just recently, I think our last physical event was a Cisco, um, uh, Europe in Barcelona before all the covert hit. And you had this massive cloud surgeon scale happening going on, right when the pandemic hit. And even now more than ever the cloud scale, the modern apps, the momentum hasn't stopped because there's more pressure now to continue addressing more innovation at scale because the pressure to do that, um, cause the business to stay alive and to get your thoughts on, um, what's going on in your world because you were there in person now we're six months in scale is huge. >>We are. Yeah, absolutely. And what happened is as all of our customers, as businesses around the world, as we ourselves all dealt with, how do we run a business from home? You know, how do we keep people safe? How do we keep people at home and how do we work? And then it turns out, you know, business keeps rolling, but we've had to automate even more because you have to go home and then figure out how from home, can I make sure that my it infrastructure is automated out from home? Can I make sure that every employee is out there working safely and securely, you know, things like call center workers, which had to go into physical locations and be in kind of, you know, just, you know, uh, blocked off rooms to really be secure with their company's information. They had to work from home. >>So we had to extend business applications to people's homes, uh, in countries like, you know, well around the world, but also in India where it was actually not, you know, not, they wouldn't let, they didn't have rules to let people work from home in these areas. So then what we had to do was automate everything and make sure that we could administer, you know, all of our customers could administer these systems from home. So that put extra stress on automation. It put extra stress on our customer's digital transformation and it just forced them to, you know, automate digitally, transform quicker. And they had to, because you couldn't just go into a server room and tweak your servers, you had to figure out how to automate all of that. And we're still all in that environment today. >>You know, one of the hottest trends before the pandemic was observability, uh, Coobernetti's serve, uh, microservices. So those things, again, all dev ops and you know, you guys got some acquisitions youth about thousand eyes. Um, um, you got a new one you just bought, um, recently port shift to raise the game and security, Kubernetes, all these microservices. So observability super hot, but then people go work at home. As you mentioned, how do you observe, what are you observing? The network is under a huge pressure. I mean, it's crashing on people's zooms and WebExes and, uh, education, huge amount of network pressure. How are people adapting to this and the app side? How are you guys looking at the what's being programmed? What are some of the things that you're seeing with use cases around this program? Ability, challenge and observability challenges. It's a huge deal. >>Yeah, absolutely. And, um, you know, going back to Todd Nightingale, right. You know, back when we talked to Todd before he had Meraki and he had designed this simplicity, this ease of use this cloud managed, you know, doing everything from one central place. And now he has Cisco's entire enterprise and cloud business. So he is now applying that at that bigger, at that bigger scale for Cisco and for our customers. And he is building in the observability and the dashboards and the automation of the API APIs into all of it. Um, but when we take a look at what our customers needed is again, they had to build it all in. Um, they had to build it. And what happened was how your network was doing, how secure your infrastructure was, how well you could enable people to work from home and how well you could reach customers. >>All of that used to be an it conversation. It became a CEO and a board level conversation. So all of a sudden CEOs were actually, you know, calling on the heads of it and the CIO and saying, you know, how's our VPN connectivity is everybody working from home, how many people are connected and able to work and what's their productivity. So all of a sudden, all these things that were really infrastructure, it stuff became a board level conversation. And, you know, once again, at first everybody was panicked and just figuring out how to get people. But now what we've seen in all of our customers is that they are now building in automation and digital transformation and these architectures, and that gives them a chance to build in that observability, you know, looking for those events, the dashboards, you know, so it really has, has been fantastic to see what our customers are doing and what our partners are doing to really rise to that next level. >>I know you got to go, but real quick, um, describe what accelerating automation with dev net means. >>Well, you've been following, you know, we've been working together on dev net and the vision of the infrastructure programmability and everything for quite some time. And the thing that's really happened is yes, you need to automate, but yes, it takes people to do that and you need the right skill sets and the programmability. So a networker can't be a networker. A networker has to be a network automation developer. And so it is about people and it is about bringing infrastructure expertise together with software expertise and letting people run things are definite community has risen to this challenge. Um, people have jumped in, they've gotten their certifications. We have thousands of people getting certified. Uh, you know, we have, you know, Cisco getting certified. We have individuals, we have partners, you know, they're just really rising to the occasion. So accelerate, accelerating automation while it is about going digital. It's also about people rising to the level of, you know, being able to put infrastructure and software expertise together to enable this next chapter of business applications of, you know, cloud directed businesses and cloud growth. So it actually is about people just as much as it is about automation and technology. >>And we got dev net created right around the corner of virtual unfortunate. Won't be in person, but we'll be virtual. Susie. Thank you for your time. We're going to dig into those people, challenges with Mandy and Eric. Thank you for coming on. I know you got to go, but stay with us. We're going to dig in with Mandy and Eric. Thanks. >>Thank you so much. Have fun. Thanks John. >>Okay. Mandy, you heard Susie is about people. And one of the things that's close to your heart you've been driving is a senior director of dev net certifications, um, is getting people leveled up. I mean the demand for skills, cybersecurity network, programmability automation, network design solution architect, cloud multi-cloud design. These are new skills that are needed. Can you give us the update on what you're doing to help people get into the acceleration of automation game? >>Oh yes, absolutely. The, you know, what we've been seeing is a lot of those business drivers that Susie was mentioning, those are, what's accelerating a lot of the technology changes and that's creating new job roles or new needs on existing job roles where they need new skills. We are seeing customers, partners, people in our community really starting to look at, you know, things like DevSecOps engineer, network, automation, engineer, network automation, which Susie >>Mentioned, and looking at how these fit into their organization, the problems that they solve in their organization. And then how do people build the skills to be able to take on these new job roles or add that job role to their current scope and broaden out and take on new challenges. >>Eric, I want to go to you for a quick second on this, um, um, piece of getting the certifications. Um, first, before you get started, describe what your role is as director of developer advocacy, because that's always changing and evolving. What's the state of it now because with COVID people are working at home, they have more time to contact, switch and get some certifications and that they can code more. What's your, what's your role? >>Absolutely. So it's interesting. It definitely is changing a lot. A lot of our historically a lot of focus for my team has been on those outward events. So going to the Devin that creates the Cisco lives and helping the community connect and to help share tech mountain technical information with them, um, doing hands on workshops and really getting people into how do you really start solving these problems? Um, so that's had to pivot quite a bit. Um, obviously Cisco live us. We committed very quickly to a virtual event when, when conditions changed and we're able to actually connect as we found out with a much larger audience. So, you know, as opposed to in person where you're bound by the parameters of, you know, how big the convention center is, uh, we were actually able to reach a worldwide audience with our, uh, our definite date that was kind of attached on to Cisco live. >>And we got great feedback from the audience that now we're actually able to get that same enablement out to so many more people that otherwise might not have been able to make it. Um, but to your broader question of, you know, what my team does. So that's one piece of it is getting that information out to the community. So as part of that, there's a lot of other things we do as well. We were always helping out build new sandboxes and your learning labs, things like that, that they can come and get whenever they're looking for it out on the dev net site. And then my team also looks after community, such as the Cisco learning network where this there's a huge community that has historically been there to support people working on their Cisco certifications. And we've seen a huge shift now in that group that all of the people that have been there for years are now looking at the domain certifications and helping other people that are trying to get on board with programmability. They're taking a lot of those same community enablement skills and propping up the community with, you know, helping you answer questions, helping provide content. They've moved now into the dev net space as well, and are helping people with that servicer. So it's great seeing the community come along and really see that >>I got to ask you on the trends around automation, what skills and what developer patterns are you seeing with automation? Are, is there anything in particular, obviously network automation has been around for a long time. Cisco has been leader in that, but as you move up, the stack as modern applications are building, do you see any patterns or trends around what is accelerating automation? What are people learning? Yeah, absolutely. >>So you mentioned, uh, observability was big before COVID and we actually really saw that amplified during COVID. So a lot of people have come to us looking for insights. How can I get that better observability, uh, now that we needed? Well, we're virtual. Um, so that's actually been a huge uptake and we've seen a lot of people that weren't necessarily out looking for things before that are now figuring out how can I do this at scale? And I think one good example that, uh, Susie was talking about the VPN example, and we actually had a number of SES in the Cisco community that had customers dealing with that very thing where they very quickly had to ramp up. And one in particular actually wrote a bunch of automation to go out and measure all of the different parameters that it departments might care about, about their firewalls, things that you do normally look at me all days, you would size your firewalls based on, you know, assuming a certain number of people working from home. >>And when that number went to a hundred percent things like licensing started coming into play, where they needed to make sure they had the right capacity in their platforms that they weren't necessarily designed for. So one of the STDs actually wrote a bunch of code to go out, use some open source tooling, to monitor and alert on these things and then published it. So the whole community could go out and get a copy of it, try it out their own environment. And we saw a lot of interest around that and trying to figure out, okay, now I can take that and I can adapt it to what I need to see for my observability. >>That's great. Mandy. I want to get your thoughts on this too, because as automation continues to scale, it's going to be a focus and people are at home and you guys had a lot of content online for you recorded every session that didn't the dev Ned zone learnings going on, sometimes linearly. And nonlinearly you got the certifications, which is great. That's key, key, great success there. People are interested, but what are the learnings? Are you seeing? What are people doing? What's the top top trends. >>Yeah. So what we're seeing is like you said, people are at home, they've got time. They want to advance their skillset. And just like any kind of learning people want choice because they want to be able to choose what's matches their time that's available and their learning style. So we're seeing some people who want to dive into full online study groups with mentors, leading them through a study plan. And we have two new, uh, expert led study groups like that. We're also seeing whole teams at different companies who want to do, uh, an immersive learning experience together, uh, with projects and office hours and things like that. And we have a new, um, offer that we've been putting together for people who want those kinds of team experiences called automation boot camp. And then we're also seeing individuals who want to be able to, you know, dive into a topic, do a hands on lab, get some skills, go to the rest of the day of do their work and then come back the next day. >>And so we have really modular self-driven hands on learning through the dev net fundamentals course, which is available through dev net. And then there's also people who are saying, I just want to use the technology. I like to experiment and then go, you know, read the instructions, read the manual, do the deeper learning. And so they're, they're spending a lot of time in our dev net sandbox, trying out different technologies, Cisco technologies with open source technologies, getting hands on and building things. And three areas where we're seeing a lot of interest in specific technologies. One is around SD wan. There's a huge interest in people skilling up there because of all the reasons that we've been talking about security is a focus area where people are dealing with new scale, new kinds of threats, having to deal with them in new ways and then automating their data center, using infrastructure as code type principles. So those are three areas where we're seeing a lot of interest and you'll be hearing some more about that at dev net create >>Awesome. Eric and Mandy, if you guys can wrap up, um, this accelerated automation with dev net package and a virtual event here, um, and also tee up dev net create because dev net create has been a very kind of grassroots, organically building momentum over the years. Again, it's super important cause it's now the app world coming together with networking, you know, end to end programmability and with everything as a service that you guys are doing everything with API APIs, um, only can imagine the enablement that's gonna name, uh, create, can you share the summary real quick on accelerating automation with, at and T up dev net create Mandy we'll start. Yeah. >>Yes. I'll go first. And then Eric can close this out. Um, so just like we've been talking about with you at every definite event over the past years, you know, that's bringing APIs across our whole portfolio and up and down the stack and accelerating, uh, automation with dev net. Susie mentioned the people aspect of that. The people skilling up and how that transformed teams, transforms teams. And I think that it's all connected in how businesses are being pushed on their transformation because of current events. That's also a great opportunity for people to advance their careers and take advantage of some of that quickly changing landscape. And so what I think about accelerating automation with dev net, it's about the dev community. It's about people getting those new skills and all the creativity and problem solving that will be unleashed by that community. With those new skills. >>Eric take us home. He accelerating automation, dev net and dev net create a lot of developer action going on in cloud native right now, your thoughts? >>Absolutely. I think it's exciting. I mentioned the transition to virtual for Devin that day, this year for Cisco live. And we're seeing, we're able to leverage it even further with creative this year. So, whereas it used to be, you know, confined by the walls that we were within for the event. Now we're actually able to do things like we're adding the start now track for people that want to be there. They want to be a developer, a network automation developer, for instance, we've now got attract just for them where they can get started and start learning. Some of the skills they'll need, even if some of the other technical sessions were a little bit deeper than what they were ready for. Um, so I love that we're able to bring that together with the experienced community that we usually do from across the industry, bringing us all kinds of innovative talks, talking about ways that they're leveraging technology, leveraging the cloud, to do new and interesting things to solve their business challenges. >>So I'm really excited to bring that whole mix together, as well as getting some of our business units together too, and talk straight from their engineering departments. What are they doing? What are they seeing? What are they thinking about when they're building new APIs into their platforms? What are the, what problems are they hoping that customers will be able to solve with them? So I think together seeing all of that and then bringing the community together from all of our usual channels. So like I said, Cisco learning network, we've got a ton of community coming together, sharing their ideas and helping each other grow those skills. I see nothing but acceleration ahead of us for automation. >>Awesome. Thanks so much, God, man, you can add, add one more thing. >>I'm just going to say the other really exciting thing about create this year with the virtual nature of it is it it's happening in three regions and um, you know, we're so excited to see the people joining from all the different regions and uh, content and speakers and the region stepping up to have things personalized to their area, to their community. And so that's a whole new experience for them that create that's going to be fantastic this year. Yeah. >>I was just gonna close out and just put the final bow on that by saying that you guys have always been successful with great content focused on the people in the community. I think now during what this virtual dev net virtual dev net create virtual, the cube virtual, I think we're learning new things. People working in teams and groups and sharing content, we're going to learn new things. We're going to try new things and ultimately people will rise up and we'll be resilient. I think when you have this kind of opportunity, it's really fun. And we'll, we'll, we'll ride the wave with you guys. So thank you so much for taking the time to come on the cube and talk about your awesome accelerating automation and dev net. Great. Looking forward to it. Thank you. >>Yeah. >>The cube virtual here in Palo Alto studios doing the remote content amendment say virtual until we're face to face. Thank you so much for watching and we'll see you at dev net create thanks for watching Jeffrey here with the cube. Uh, we have our ongoing coverage of the Cisco dev net event. It's really accelerating with automation and programmability in the new normal, and we know the new normal is definitely continuing to go. We've been doing this since the middle of March and now we're in October. So we're excited to have our next guest he's Thomas Sheba. He is the vice president of product management for data center for Cisco Thomas. Great to see you. >>Hey, good to see you too. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody can see on our background. >>Exactly, exactly. So, I mean, I'm curious, we've talked to a lot of people. We talked to a lot of leaders, you know, especially like back in March and April with this light moment, which was, >>You know, no time to prep and suddenly everybody has to work from home. Teachers got to teach from home. And so you've got the kids home, you've got the spouse home, everybody's home trying to get on the network and do their zoom calls and their classes. I'm curious from your perspective, you guys are right there on the, on the network you're right in the infrastructure. What did you hear and see kind of from your customers when suddenly, you know, March 16th hit and everybody had to go home? >>Well, good point, Hey, I do think we all appreciate the network much more than we used to do before. Uh, and then the only other difference is I'm really more on WebEx calls to zoom calls, but you know, otherwise, uh, yes. Um, what, what I do see actually is that as I said, network becomes much more obvious as a critical piece. And so before we really talked a lot about, uh, agility and flexibility these days, we talk much more about resiliency quite frankly. Uh, and what do I need to have in place with respect to network to get my things from left to right. And you know, it was 2000, he still West, as we say on the data center. Uh, and that just is for most of my customers, a very, very important topic at this point. Right. >>You know, it's, it's amazing to think, you know, had this happened, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago, you know, the ability for so many people in, in, in the information industry to be able to actually make that transition relatively seamlessly, uh, is, is actually pretty amazing. I'm sure there was some, some excitement and some kudos in terms of, you know, it, it is all based on the network and it is kind of this quiet thing in the background that nobody pays attention to. It's like a ref in the football game until they make a bad play. So, you know, it is pretty fascinating that you and your colleagues have put this infrastructure and that enabled us to really make that move with, with, with really no prep, no planning and actually have a whole lot of services delivered into our homes that we're used to getting at the office are used to getting at school. >>Yeah. And I mean, to your point, I mean, some of us did some planning. Can we clearly talking about some of these, these trends in the way I look at this trends as being distributed data centers and, um, having the ability to move your, your workloads and access for users to wherever you want to be. And so I think that clearly went on for a while. And so in a sense, we, we, we prep was, are normal, but we're prepping for it. Um, but as I said, resiliency just became so much more important than, you know, one of the things I actually do a little plot, a little, little, uh, Bret before a block I put out end of August around resiliency. Uh, you, you, if you didn't, if you didn't put this in place, you better put it in place. Because I think as we all know, we saw her March. This is like maybe two or three months, we're now in October. Um, and I sing, this is the new normal for some time being. >>Yeah, I think so. So let's stick on that theme in terms of trends, right? The other great trend as public cloud, um, and cloud and multi cloud, there's all types of variants on that theme you had in that blog post about, uh, resiliency in data center, cloud networking, data center cloud, you know, some people think, wait, it's, it's kind of an either, or I either got my data center or I've got my stuff in the cloud and I've got public cloud. And then as I said, hybrid cloud, you're talking really specifically about enabling, um, both inner inner data center resiliency within multi data centers within the same enterprise, as well as connecting to the cloud. That's probably counterintuitive for some people to think that that's something that Cisco is excited about and supporting. So I wonder if you can share, you know, kind of how the market is changing, how you guys are reacting and really putting the things in place to deliver customer choice. >>Yeah, no, it's actually, to me it's really not a counterintuitive because in the end was what, uh, I'm focusing on. And the company is focusing on is what our customers want to do and need to do. Uh, and that's really, um, would, you know, most people call hybrid cloud or multi-cloud, uh, in, in the end, what it is, what it is, is really the ability to have the flexibility to move your workloads where you want them to be. And there are different reasons why you want to place them, right? You might've placed them for security reasons. You might've played some clients reasons, depending on which customer segment you after, if you're in the United States or in Europe or in Asia, there are a lot of different reasons where you're going to put your things. And so I think in the end, what, uh, an enterprise looks for is that agility, flexibility, and resiliency. >>And so really what you want to put in place is what we call like the cloud on ramp, right? You need to have an ability to move sings as needed, but the logic context section, which we see in the, um, last couple of months, accelerating is really this whole seam around digital transformation, uh, which goes hand in hand then was, uh, the requirement on the at T side really do. And I T operations transformation, right. How it operates. Uh, and I think that's really exciting to see, and this is excellent. Well, a lot of my discussions, I was customers, uh, what does it actually mean with respect to the it organization and what are the operational changes? This a lot of our customers are going through quite frankly, accelerated right. Going through, >>Right. And, and automation is in the title of the event. So automation is, you know, is an increasingly important thing, you know, as the, as we know, and we hear all the time, you know, the flows of data, the complexity of the data, either on the security or the way the network's moving, or as you said, shifting workloads around, based on the dynamic situations, whether that's business security, et cetera, in a software defined networking has been around for a while. How are you seeing kind of this evolution in adding more automation, you know, to more and more processes to free up those, those, um, no kind of limited resources in terms of really skilled people to focus on the things that they should be focusing and not stuff that, that hopefully you can, you know, get a machine to run with some level of automation. Yeah. >>Yeah. That's a good point. And it said the tech line, I have, you know, sometimes when my mind is really going from a cloud ready, which has in most of the infrastructure is today to cloud native. And so let me a little expand on those, right? There's like the cloud ready is basically what we have put in place over the last five to six years, all the infrastructure that all our customers have, network infrastructure, all the nexus 9,000, they're all cloud ready. Right. And what this really means, do you have API APIs everywhere, right? Whether this is on the box, whether it's on the controller, whether this is on the operations tools, all of these are API enabled and that's just a foundation for automation, right? You have to have that. Now, the next step really is what do you do with that capability? Right? >>And this is the integration with a lot of automation tools. Uh, and that's a whole range, right? This is where the it operation transformation kicks in different customers at different speed, right? Some just, you know, I use these API APIs and use normal tools that they have in a network world just to pull information. Some customers go for it further and saying, I want to integrate this with like some CMDB tools. Some go even further and saying, this is like the cloud native pieces saying, Oh, I want to use, let's say red hat Ansible. I want to use, uh, how she called Terraform and use those things to actually drive how I manage my infrastructure. And so that's really the combination of the automation capability. Plus the integration was relevant cloud native enabling tools that really is happening at this point. We're seeing customers accelerating that, that motion, which really then drives us how they run their it operations. Right. And so that's a pretty exciting, exciting area to see, uh, giving us, I said, we have the infrastructure in place. There's no need for customers to actually do change something. Most of them have already the infrastructures that can do this is just no doing the operational change. The process changes to actually get there. >>Right. And it's funny, we, we recently covered, you know, PagerDuty and, and they highlight what you just talked about, the cloud native, which is, you know, all of these applications now are so interdependent on all these different API APIs, you know, pulling data from all these applications. So a, when they work great, it's terrific. But if there's a problem, you know, there's a whole lot of potential throats to choke out there and find, find those issues. And it's all being connected via the network. So, you know, it's even more critically important, not only for the application, but for all these little tiny components within the application to deliver, you know, ultimately a customer experience within a very small units of time, uh, so that you don't lose that customer or you, you complete that transaction. They, they check out of their shopping cart. You know, all these, these things that are now created with cloud native applications that just couldn't really do before. >>No, you're absolutely right. And that's, this is like, just to say, sit, I'm actually very excited because it opens up a lot of abilities for our customers, how they to actually structure the operation. Right. One of the nice things around this or automation plus a tool integration to an integration is you actually opened us up, not a sole automation train, not just to the network operations personnel. Right. You also open it up and can use this for the SecOps person or for the dev ops person or for the cloud ops engineering team. Right. Because the way it's structured, the way we built this, um, it's literally as an API interface and you can now decide, what is your process do you want to have? And what traditional process you have a request network, operation teams executes the request using these tools and then hand it back over. >>Or do you say, Hey, maybe some of these security things I gotta hand over the sec ups team and they can directly call, uh, these, these API is right, or even one step further. You can have the opportunity that the dev ops or the application team actually says, Hey, I got to write a whole infrastructure as code kind of a script or template, and I just execute. Right. And it's really just using what the infrastructure provides. And so that whole range of different user roles and our customer base, what they can do with the automation capability that's available. It's just very, very exciting way because it's literally unleashes a lot of flexibility, how they want to structure and how they want to rebuild the it operations processes. >>Interesting. You know, cause the, you know, the DevOps culture has taken over a lot, right. Obviously changed software programming for the last 20 years. And, and I think, you know, there's a, there's a lot of just kind of the concept of dev ops versus necessarily, you know, the actual things that you do to execute that technique. And I don't think most people would think of, you know, network ops or, you know, net ops, you know, whatever the equivalent is in the networking world to have, you know, kind of a fast changing dynamic, uh, kind of point of view versus a, you know, stick it in, you know, spec it, stick it in, lock it down. So I wonder if you can, you can share how, you know, kind of that dev ops, um, attitude point of view, workflow, whatever the right verb is, has impacted, you know, things at Cisco and the way you guys think about networking and flexibility within the networking world. >>Yeah, literally, absolutely. And again, it's all customer driven, right? There's none of those, none of this is really actually, you know, a little bit of credit, maybe some of us where we have a vision, but a lot of it's just customer driven feedback. Uh, and yeah, we, we do have network operations teams comes from saying, Hey, we use Ansible heavily on the compute side, we might use this for alpha seven. We want to use the same for networking. And so we made available all these integrations, uh, with sobriety as a state, whether these are the switches, whether these are ACI dcnm controller or our multi-site orchestration capabilities, all of these has Ansible integration the way to the right, the other one, as I mentioned, that how she from Turco Terraform, we have integrations available and they see the requests for these tools to use that. >>Uh, and so that is the emotion we're in for all the, you know, and, uh, another block actually does out there, we just posted saying all set what you can do and then a Palo to this, right. Just making the integration available. We also have a very, very heavy focus on definite and enablement and training, uh, and you know, a little clock. And I know, uh, probably, uh, part of the segment, the whole definite community that Cisco has is very, very vibrant. Uh, and the beauty of this is right. If you look at those, whether you're a net ops person or a dev ops person or a SecOps person, it doesn't really matter. It has a lot of like capability available to just help you get going or go from one level to the next level. Right? And there's simple things like sandbox environments where you can, we know what's out stress, try sinks out snippets of code are there, you can do all of these things. And so we do see it's a kind of a push and pull a tremendous amount of interest and a tremendous, uh, uh, time people spend to learn quite frankly, then that's another site product of, of, you know, the situation where, and people said, Oh man, and say, okay, online learning is the thing. So these, these, these tools are used very, very heavily, right? >>That's awesome. Cause you know, we've, we've had Susie Lee on a number of times and I know he and Mandy and the team really built this dev net thing. And it really follows along this other theme that we see consistently across other pieces of tech, which is democratization, right democratization of the access tool, taking it out of, of just a mahogany row with, again, a really limited number of people that know how to make it work and it can make the changes and then opening it up to a software defined world where now that the, you know, the it's as application centric, point of view, where the people that are building the apps to go create competitive advantage. Now don't have to wait for, you know, the one network person to help them out in and out of these environments. Really interesting. And I wonder if, you know, when you look at what's happened with public cloud and how they kind of change the buying parameter, how they kind of change the degree of difficulty to get project started, you know, how you guys have kind of integrated that, that type of thought process to make it easier for app developers to get their job done. >>Yeah. I mean, again, it's, it's, uh, I typically look at this more from a, from a customer lens, right? It's the transformation process and it always starts as I want agility. I want flexibility. I want to resiliency, right? This is where we talk to a business owner, what they're looking for. And then that translates into, into an I, to operations process, right? Your strategy needs to map then how you actually do this. Uh, and that just drives then what tools do you want to have available to actually enable this? Right? And the enablement again is for different roles, right? There is you need to give sync services to the app developer and, uh, the, the platform team and the security team, right. To your point. So the network, uh, can act at the same speed, but you also give to us to the network operations teams because they need to adjust. >>Then they have the ability to react to, uh, to some of these requirements. Right. And it's just automation. I think we, we, we focused on that, but there's also to your point, the, the need, how do I extend between data centers? You know, just, just for backup and recovery and how do I extend into, into public clouds, right? Uh, and in the end, that's a, that's a network connectivity problem. Uh, and we have soft as, uh, we have made as available. We have integrations into, uh, AWS. We have integrations into a joy to actually make this very easy from a, from a network perspective to extend your private domains, private networks into which have private networks on these public clouds. So from an app development perspective, now it looks like he's on the same network. It's a protective enterprise network. Some of it might sit here. >>Some of it might sit here, but it's really looking the same. And that's really in the enticing. What, what a business looks at, right? They don't necessarily want to say, I need to have something separate for this deployment was a separate for that deployment. What they want is I need to deploy something. I need to do this resilient. And the resilient way in an agile way gives me the tools. And so that's really where we focused, um, and what we're driving, right? It's that combination of automation consistently, and then definite tools, uh, available that we support. Uh, but they're all open. Uh, they're all standard tools as the ones I mentioned, right. That everybody's using. So I'm not getting into this, Oh, this is specific to Cisco, right. Uh, it's really democratization. I actually liked your term. Yeah. >>It's a great terminate. And it's, it's really interesting, especially with, with the API APIs and the way everything is so tied together that everyone kind of has to enable this because that's what the customer is demanding. Um, and it is all about the applications and the workloads and where those things are moving, but they don't really want to manage that. They just want to, you know, deliver business benefit to their customers and respond to, uh, you know, competitive threats in the marketplace, et cetera. So it's really an interesting time for the infrastructure, you know, to really support kind of this app first point of view, uh, versus the other way around is kind of what it used to be and, and enable this hyper fast development hyper fast, uh, change in the competitive landscape or else you will be left behind. Um, so super important stuff. >>Yeah, no, I totally agree. And as I said, I mean, it's, it's kind of interesting because we, we started on a Cisco data center. So we started this probably six or seven years ago. Uh, when we, when we named the application centric, uh, clearly a lot of these concepts evolve, uh, but in a sense it is that reversal of the role from the network provides something and you use to, uh, this is what I want to do. And I need a service, uh, thinking on a networking side to expose. So as that can be consumed. And so that clearly is playing out. Um, and as I said, automation is a key key foundation that we put in place, uh, and our customers, most of our customers at this point, uh, on, on these products, >>They have all the capabilities there. They can literally take advantage. There's really nothing that stops them >>Good times for you, because I'm sure you've seen all the memes and social media, right? What what's driving your digital transformation. Is it the CEO, the CMO or COVID, and we all know the answer to the question. So I don't think the, the pace of change is going to slow down anytime soon. So keeping the network up and enabling us all to get done, what we have to get done and all the little magic that happens behind the scenes. >>Yeah. No thanks. Thanks for having me. And again, yeah. If you're listening and you're wondering, how do I get started Cisco? Definitely just the place to go. It's fantastic. Fantastic. And I highly recommend everybody roll up your sleeves, you know, the best reasons you can have. >>Yeah. And we know once the physical events come back, we've been to dev net create a bunch of times, and it's a super vibrant, super excited, but really engaged community sharing. Lots of information is kind of, it's still kind of that early vibe, you know, where everyone is still really enthusiastic and really about learning and sharing information. So I say Susie and the team are really built a great thing, and we're a, we're happy to continue to cover it. And eventually we'll be back, uh, face to face. >>Okay. I look forward to that as well. >>All right, thanks. Uh, he's Thomas I'm Jeff, you're watching continuing coverage of Cisco dev net accelerating with automation and programmability >>TK Kia. Nini is here. He's a distinguished engineer at Cisco TK, my friend. Good to see you again. How are you? Good. I mean, you and I were in Barcelona in January and, you know, we knew we saw this thing coming, but we didn't see it coming this way. Did we know that no one did, but yeah, that was right before everything happened. Well, it's weird. Right? I mean, we were, you know, we, we, it was in the back of our minds in January, we sort of had Barcelona's hasn't really been hit yet. It looked like it was really isolated in China, but, uh, but wow, what a change and I guess, I guess I'd say I'd start with the, we're seeing really a secular change in your space and security identity, access management, cloud security, endpoint security. I mean, all of a sudden these things explode as the work from home pivot has occurred. >>Uh, and it feels like these changes are permanent or semi-permanent, what are you seeing out there? Yeah, I don't, I don't think anybody thinks the world's going to go back the way it was. Um, to some degree it's, it's changed forever. Um, you know, I, I, I do a lot of my work remotely. Um, and, and so, you know, being a remote worker, isn't such a big deal for me, but for some, it was a huge impact. And like I said, you know, um, remote work, remote education, you know, everybody's on the opposite side, a computer. And so the digital infrastructure has just become a lot more important to protect. And the integrity of it essentially is almost our own integrity these days. >>Yeah. And when you see that, you know, that work from home pivot, I mean, you know, our estimates are along with a partner DTR about 16% of the workforce was at home working from home prior to COVID and now it's, you know, North of 70% plus, and that's going to come down maybe a little bit over the next six months. We'll see what happens with the fall surge, but, but people essentially accept, expect that to at least double that 16%, you know, going forward indefinitely. So how, what is that, what kind of pressure does that put on the security infrastructure and how, how organizations are approaching security? >>Yeah, I just think, uh, from a mindset standpoint, you know, what was optional, uh, maybe, um, last year, uh, is no longer optional and I don't think it's going to go back. Um, I think, I think a lot of people, uh, have changed the way, you know, they live and the way they work. Um, and they're doing it in ways, hopefully that in some cases, uh, yield more productivity, um, again, um, you know, usually with technology that's severely effective, it doesn't pick sides. So the security slant to it is it frankly works just as well for the bad guys. And so that's, that's the balance we need to keep, which is we need to be extra diligent, uh, on how we go about securing infrastructure, uh, how we go about securing even our social channels, because remember all our social channels now are digital. So that's, that's become the new norm. >>You know, you've helped me understand over the years. I remember a line you shared with me in the cube one time is that the adversary is highly capable, is sort of the phrase that you used. And essentially the way you describe it, as you know, your job as a security practitioner is to decrease the bad guy's return on investment, you know, increase their costs, increase the numerator, but as, as work shifts from home, yeah, I'm in my house, you know, my wifi in my, you know, router with my dog's name is the password. You know, it's much, much harder for me to, to increase that denominator at home. So how can you help? >>Yeah. I mean, it's, it is, it is truly, um, when you think, when you get into the mind of the adversary and, and, uh, you know, the cyber crime out there, they're honestly just like any other business they're trying to operate with high margin. And so if you can get there, if you can get in there and erode their margin, frankly go find something else to do. Um, and, and again, you know, you know, the shift we experienced day to day is it's not just our kids are online in school and, uh, our work is online, but all the groceries we order, um, uh, you know, this Thanksgiving and holiday season, uh, a lot more online shopping is going to take place. So, you know, everything's gone digital. And so the question is, you know, how, how do we up our game there so that we can go about our business, uh, effectively and make it very expensive for the adversary to operate, uh, and take care of their business? Cause it's nasty stuff. >>I want to ask you about automation generally, and then specifically how it applies to security. So we, I mean, we certainly saw the ascendancy of the hyperscalers and of course they really attacked the it labor problem. We learned a lot from that and an it organizations have applied much of that thinking. And the it's critical at scale. I mean, you just can't scale humans at the pace, the technology scales today, how does that apply to security and specifically, how is automation affecting security? >>Yeah, it's, it's, it's the topic these days. Um, you know, businesses, I think, realize that they can't continue to grow at human scale. And so the reason why automation and things like AI and machine learning have a lot of value is because everyone's trying to expand, uh, and operate at machine scale. Now, I mean that for, for businesses, I mean that for education and everything else now, so are the adversaries, right? So it's expensive for them to operate at Cuban scale and they are going to machine scale, going to machine scale, uh, a necessity is that you're going to have to harness some level of automation, have the machines, uh, work on your behalf, have the machines carry your intent. Um, and when you do that, um, you can do it safely or you could do it dangerously. And that that's really kind of your choice. Um, you know, just because you can automate something doesn't mean you should, um, you, you wanna make sure that frankly, the adversary can't get in there and use that automation on their behalf. So it's, it's a tricky thing because, you know, if when you take the phrase, you know, how do we, how do we automate security? Well, you actually have, uh, take care of, of securing the automation first. >>Yeah. We talked about this in Barcelona, where you were explaining that, you know, the bad guys, the adversaries are essentially, you know, weaponizing using your own tooling, which makes them appear safe because it's, they're hiding in plain sight. Right? >>Well, there's, they're clever, uh, give them that, um, you know, there's this phrase that they, they always talk about called living off the land. Um, there's no sense in them coming into your network and bringing their tools and, uh, and being detective, you know, if they can use the tools that's already there, then, uh, they have a higher degree of, of evading, uh, your protection. If they can pose as Alice or Bob, who's already been credentialed and move around your network, then they're moving around the network as Alice or Bob. They're not marked as the adversary. So again, you know, having the detection methods available to find their behavior anomalies and things like that become a paramount, but also, you know, having the automation to contain them, to eradicate them, to, you know, minimize their effectiveness, um, without it, I mean, ideally without human interaction, cause you, you just, can you move faster, you move quicker. Um, and I see that with an asterisk because, um, if done wrong, frankly, um, you're just making their job more effective. >>I wonder if we could talk about the market a little bit, uh, it's I'm in the security space, cybersecurity 80 plus billion, which by the way, is just a little infant testable component of our GDP. So we're not spending nearly enough to protect that, that massive, uh, GDP, but guys, I wonder if you could bring up the chart because when you talk to CSOs and you ask them, what's your, what's your biggest challenge? They'll say lack of talent. And, and so what this chart shows is from ETR, our, or our survey partner, and on the vertical axis is net score. And that's an indication of spending momentum on the horizontal axis is market share, which is a measure of presence, a pervasiveness, if you will, inside the datasets. And so there's a couple of key points here. I wanted to put forth to our audience and then get your reactions. >>So you can see Cisco, I highlighted in red, Cisco is business and security is very, very strong. We see it every quarter. It's a growth area that Chuck Robbins talks about on the, on the conference call. And so you can see on the horizontal axis, you've got a big presence in the data set. I mean, Microsoft is out there, but they're everywhere, but you're right there, uh, in that, in that dataset. And then you've got for such a large presence, you've got a lot of momentum in the marketplace, so that's very impressive. But the other point here is you've got this huge buffet of options. There's just a zillion vendors here. And that just adds to the complexity. This is of course only a subset of what's in the security space. You know, the people who answered for the survey. So my question is how can Cisco help, you know, simplify this picture? Is it automation? Is it, you know, you guys have done some really interesting tuck in acquisitions and you're bringing that integration together. Can you talk about that a little bit? >>Yeah. I mean, that's an impressive chart. I mean, when you look to the left there it's, um, I had a customer tell me once that, you know, I came to this trade show, looking for transportation and these people are trying to sell me car parts. Um, that's the frustration customers have, you know, and I think what Cisco has done really well is to really focus on outcomes. Um, what is the customer outcome? Cause ultimately that's, that is what the customer wants. You know, there might be a few steps to get to that outcome, but the closest closer you can get to delivering outcomes for the customer, the better you are. And I think, I think security in general has just year over year have been just written with, um, you need to be an expert. Um, you need to buy all these parts and put it together yourself. And, and I think, I think those days are behind us, but particularly as, as security becomes more pervasive and we're, you know, we're selling to the business, we're not selling to the, you know, t-shirt wearing hacker anymore. >>Yeah. So, well, well how does cloud fit in here? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about cloud people that God put my data in the cloud I'm safe, but you know, of course we know it's a shared responsibility model. So I'm interested in your, your thoughts on that. Is it really, is it a sense of complacency? A lot of the cloud vendors, by the way, say, Oh, the state of security is great in the cloud. Whereas many of us out there saying, wow, it's, it's not so great. Uh, so what are your thoughts on that, that whole narrative and what Cisco's play in cloud? >>I think cloud, um, when you look at the services that are delivered via the cloud, you see that exact pattern, which is you see customers paying for the outcome or as close to the outcome as possible. Um, you know, no, no data center required, no disk drive required, you just get storage, you know, it's, it's, it's all of those things that are again, closer to the outcome. I think the thing that interests me about cloud two is it's really been, it's really punctuated the way we go about building systems. Um, again at machine scale. So, you know, before, when I write code and I think about, Oh, what computers are gonna run on or, you know, what servers are going to is you're going to run on those. Those thoughts never crossed my mind anymore. You know, I'm modeling the intent of what the service should do and the machines then figure it out. So, you know, for instance, on Tuesday, if the entire internet shows up, uh, the, the system works without fail. And if on Wednesday, if only North America shows up, you know, so, but, but there's no way you could staff that, right. There's just no human scale approach that gets you there. And that's, that's the beauty of all of this cloud stuff is, um, it really is, uh, the next level of how we do computer science. >>So you're talking about infrastructure as code and that applies to security as code. That's what dev net is really all about. I've said many times, I think Cisco of the large established enterprise companies is one of the few, if not the only, that really has figured out, you know, that developer angle, because it's practical. What are you doing? You're not trying to force your way into developers, but, you know, I wonder if you could, you could talk a little bit about that trend and where you see it going. >>Yeah, no, that is, that is truly the trend. Every time I walk into dev net, um, the big halls at Cisco live, it is Cisco as code. Um, everything about Cisco is being presented through an API. It is automation ready. And frankly, that is, um, that is the, the love language of the cloud. Um, it's it's machines is the machines talking to machines in very effective ways. So, you know, it is the, the, uh, I, I think, I think necessary, maybe not sufficient but necessary for, um, you know, doing all the machine scale stuff. What what's also necessary, uh, is to, um, to secure if infrastructure is code therefore, um, what, what secure, uh, what security methodologies do we have today that we use to secure code? While we have automated testing, we have threat modeling, right? Those things actually have to be now applied to infrastructure. So then when I, when I talk about how do you do, uh, automation securely, you do it the same way you secure your code, you test it, you, you threat model, you, you, you say, you know, Ken, my adversary, uh, exhibit something here that drives the automation in a way that I didn't intend it to go. Um, so all of those practices apply. It's just, everything has code these days. >>I've often said that security and privacy are sort of two sides of the same coin. And I want to ask you a question and it's really, you know, to me, it's not necessarily Cisco and company like companies like Cisco's responsibility, but I wonder if there's a way in which you can help. And of course, there's this Netflix documentary circling around the social dilemma. I don't know if you have a chance to see it, but basically dramatizes the way in which companies are appropriating our data to sell us ads and, you know, creating our own little set of facts, et cetera. And that comes down to sort of how we think about privacy and admin. It's good from the standpoint of awareness, you know, you may or may not care if you're a social media user. I love tick-tock, I don't care, but, but, but they, they sort of laid out. This is pretty scary scenario with a lot of the inventors of those technologies. You have any thoughts on that and you'll consist go play a role there in terms of protecting our privacy. I mean, beyond GDPR and California, consumer privacy act, um, what do you think? >>Yeah. Um, uh, I'll give you my, you know, my humble opinion is you, you fix social problems with social tools, you fixed technology problems with technology tools. Um, I think there is a social problem, um, that needs to be rectified the, you know, um, we, we, weren't built as, um, human beings to live and interact with an environment that agrees with us all the time. It's just pretty wrong. So yeah, that, that, that, um, that series that really kind of wake up a lot of people it is, is, you know, it's probably every day I hear somebody asked me if I, I saw, um, but I do think it also, you know, with that level of awareness, I think we, we overcome it or we compensate by what number one, just being aware that it's happening. Um, number two, you know, how you go about solving it, I think maybe come down to an individual or even a communities, um, solution and what might be right for one community might be, you know, not the same for the other. So you have to be respectful in that manner. >>Yeah. So it's, it's, it's almost, I think if I could play back, what I heard is, is yeah. Technology, you know, maybe got us into this problem, but technology alone is not going to get us out of the problem. It's not like some magic AI bot is going to solve this. It's got to be, you know, society has to really, really take this on as your premise. >>That's a good point. When I, when I first started playing online games, I'm going back to the text-based adventure stuff, like muds and moves. I did a talk at, at MIT one time, and I'm this old curmudgeon in the back of the room. Um, we were talking about democracy and we were talking about, you know, the social processes that we had modeled in our game and this and that. And this guy just gave us the SmackDown. He basically walked up to the front of the room and said, you know, all you techies, you judge efficiency by how long it takes. He says, democracy is a completely the opposite, which is you need to sleep on it. In fact, you should be scared if somebody can decide in a minute, what is good for the community? It, two weeks later, they probably have a better idea of what's good for the community. So it almost has the opposite. And that was super interesting to me. >>That's really interesting, you know, you read the, like the, the Lincoln historians and he was criticized in the day for having taken so long, you know, to make certain decisions, but ultimately when he acted acted with, with confidence. Um, so to that point, but, um, so what, what else are you working on these days that, uh, that are, that is interesting that maybe you want to share with our audience? Anything that's really super exciting for you or you, >>Yeah. You know, generally speaking, I'm trying to try and make it a little harder for the bad guys to operate. I guess that's a general theme making it simpler for the common person to use, uh, tools. Um, again, you know, all of these security tools, no matter how fancy it is, it's not that we're losing the complexity, it's that we're moving the complexity away from the user so that they can thrive at human scale. And we can do things at machine scale and kind of working those two together is sort of the, the magic recipe. Um, it's, it's not easy, but, um, but it is, it is fun. So that's, that's what keeps me engaged. >>I'm definitely seeing, I wonder if you see it just sort of a, obviously a heightened organization awareness, but I'm also seeing shifts in the organizational structures. You know, the, you know, it used to be a sec ops team and an Island. Okay, it's your problem? You know, the, the, the CSO cannot report into the, to the CIO because that's like the Fox in the hen house, a lot of those structures are, are, are changing. It seems it'd be becoming this responsibility is coming much more ubiquitous across the organization. What are you seeing there and what are you putting on? >>And it's so familiar to me because, you know, um, I, I started out as a musician. So, you know, bands bands are a great analogy. You know, you play bass, I big guitar. You know, somebody else plays drums, everybody knows their role and you create something that's larger than, you know, the sum of all parts. And so that, that analogy I think, is coming to, you know, we, we saw it sort of with dev ops where, you know, the developer, doesn't just throw their coat over the wall and it's somebody else's problem. They move together as a band. And, and that's what I think, um, organizations are seeing is that, you know, why, why stop there? Why not include marketing? Why not include sales? Why don't we move together as a business? Not just here's the product and here's the rest of the business. That's, that's, that's pretty awesome. Um, I think, uh, we see a lot of those patterns, uh, particularly for the highly high-performance businesses. >>No, in fact, it's interesting you for great analogy, by the way. And you actually see in that within Cisco, you're seeing sort of a, and I know sometimes you guys don't like to talk about the plumbing, but I think it matters. I mean, you got a leadership structure now. I I've talked to many of them. They seem to really be more focused on how they're connect, connecting, you know, across organizations. And it's increasingly critical in this world of, you know, of silo busters, isn't it? Yeah, no, I mean, you almost, as, as you move further and further away, you know, you can see how ridiculous it was before it would be like acquiring the band and say, okay, all you can talk later is go over here. All your bass players go over there. I'm like, what happened to the band? >>That's what I'm talking about is, you know, moving all of those disciplines, moving together and servicing the same backlog and achieving the same successes together is just so awesome. Well, I always, I always feel better after talking to you. You know, I remember I remember art. Coviello used to put out his, his letter every year and I was reading. I'd get depressed. We spend all this money now we're less secure. But when I talked to you TK, I feel like much more optimistic. So I really appreciate the time you spend on the cube. It's awesome to have you as a guest. I love these, I love these sessions. So thanks. Thanks for inviting me. And I miss you. I, you know, hopefully, you know, next year we can get together at some of the Cisco shows or other shows, but be well and stay weird. Like the sign says doing my part to get Kenny, thanks so much for coming to the cube. We, uh, we really appreciate it. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante. We've right back with our next guest. This short break, >>Come back to the cubes coverage, just to keep virtuals coverage of dev net create virtual will not face to face the cubes. Been there with dev net and dev net create. Since the beginning, dev net create was really a part of the dev net community. Looking out at the external market outside of Cisco, which essentially is the cloud native world, which is going mainstream. We've got a great guest here. Who's who's been the company's been on the cube. Many times. We've been talking to them recently acquired by Cisco thousand eyes. We have Joe Vaccaro is BC vice president of product, Joe, welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. Great. And thanks for having me. You have the keys to the kingdom, you, the vice president of product, which means you get to look inside and you get to look outside, figure it all out, uh, make everything run on thousand eyes. >>You guys have been finding common language, uh, across multiple layers of network intelligence, external services. This is the heart of what we're seeing in innovation with multicloud microservices, cloud native. This is really a hot area. It's converging multiple theaters in technology. Super important. I want to get into that with you. But first thousand nine was recently acquired by Cisco, um, big acquisition, uh, super important new CEO of Cisco, very clear API, everything we're seeing that come out. That's a big theme at dev net create the ecosystem of Cisco's going outside their own, you know, their, their walls outside of the Cisco network operators, network engineers. We're talking to developers talk programmability. This is the big theme. What's it like at Cisco? Tell us, honestly, the COVID hits. You get acquired by Cisco, tell us what's happening. >>Yeah, surely been an exciting six months, 4,000 eyes on the entire team and our customers, you know, as we all kind of shifted to the new normal of working from home. And I think, you know, that change alone really kind of amplified. Even some of the fundamental beliefs that we have as a company that you know, cloud is becoming the new data center or customers that Indra internet has become the new network and the new enterprise network backbone. And that SAS has really become the new application stack. And as you think about these last six months, those fundamental truths have never been more evident as we rely upon the cloud to be able to, to work as we rely upon our own home networks and the internet in order to be productive. And as we access more sized applications on a daily basis. And as you think about those fundamental truths, what's common across all of them is that you rely upon them now more than ever, not only to run your business, but to any of your employees would be productive, but you don't own them. And if you don't own them, then you lack the ability in a traditional way to be able to understand that digital experience. And I think that's ultimately what, what thousand eyes is trying to solve for. And I think it's really being amplified in really these last six months. >>Talk about the COVID dynamic because I think it highlighted and certainly accelerated digital transformation, but specifically exposes opportunities, challenges, weaknesses, I've talked to many CXOs CSOs. Uh, sec security is huge. Um, home of the conference book talk track, we'll get to in a second, but exposes what's worth doubling down on what to abandon from a project standpoint, as people start to look at their priorities, they're going, Hey, we got to have a connected experience. We got to have security. People are working at home. No one has VPNs at home VPNs or passe, maybe it's way. And maybe it's something else they're on a backbone. They're connecting to the internet, a lot of different diversity in connections. At the same time, you got a ton of modern apps running along for these networks. This is a huge issue. COVID is exposed us at scale. What's your view on this? And what does thousand eyes thinking about this? >>You know, if you think about the kind of legacy application delivery, it went from largely users in an office connected over, say a dedicated corporate network, largely to traditional say internal hosted applications. And that was early simple connectivity bath. And as you mentioned, we've seen amplifications in terms of the diversity from the users. So users are not in the office. Now they're connected in distributed disparate locations that are dynamically changing. When you think that how they're getting to that application, they're going across a really complex service chain of different network services that are working together across as public internet backbone will totally to land them on an application. And then those applications themselves are becoming now, as you mentioned, distributed largely based upon a microservices architecture and increasing their own dependence upon third party sample size applications to fulfill say key functions of that application, those three things together. >>Ultimately you're creating that level of level of complex service chain that really makes it difficult to understand the digital experience. And ultimately the it organization it's really chartered with not just delivering the infrastructure, but delivering the right experience. And you have to then have a way to be able to see, to gain that visibility, that experience, you know, to measure it and understand, and to provide that intelligence and then ultimately to act on it, be able to ensure that your employees, as well as your customers are getting the right overall, um, approach to being able to leverage those assets. >>It's funny, you know, I was getting to some of these high scale environments, a lot of these concepts are converging. You know, we had terms like automation, self healing networks. Um, you mentioned microservices early, you mentioned data out of the clouds, the new data center, uh, or when's the new land. However, we're gonna look at it. It's a whole different architecture. So I want to get your thoughts on, on the automation piece of networking and internet outages, for instance, um, because when you, you know, there's so many outages going up and down, it is like, uh, catching, looking for a needle in a haystack, right. So, um, we've had this conversation with you guys on the cube before, how does automation occur when you guys look at those kinds of things? Uh, what's important to look at, can you comment on and react to, you know, the internet outages and how you find resolve those? >>Yeah. It's um, it was really great. And as you mentioned, automation really in a place that a key, when you think about the, just a broad problem that it is trying to drive and, you know, from our lens, we look at it in really three ways. You're first off is you have to be able to gain the level of visibility from where it matters and be able to, to test and be able to provide that level of active measurements across the, the type of ways you want to be able to inspect the network. But then also from the right vantage points, you want to inspect it. But what we talk about right aside, you know, data alone, doesn't solve that problem. As you mentioned, that needle in the haystack, you know, data just provides the raw metrics that are screaming across the screen, and you have to then enable that data to provide meeting. >>You need to enable that data become intelligent. And that intelligence comes through the automation of being able to process that data very quickly, allow you to be able to see the unseen, allow you to be able to quickly understand the issues that are happening across this digital supply chain to identify issues that are even happening outside of your own control across the public internet. And then the last step of automation really comes in the, of the action, right? How do you enable that intelligence to be put, to use? How do you enable that intelligence to then drive across the rest of your it workflow as well as to be able to be used as a signaling engine, to be able to then make the fundamental changes back at the network fabric, whether that is a dressing or modifying your BGB pairing, that we see happen with our customers using thousand eyes data, to be able to route around major internet outages that we've seen over the past six months, or to be able to then use that data, to be able to optimize the ultimate experience that they're delivering to both our customers, as well as their employees, >>Classic policy based activities. And you take it to a whole nother level. I got to get your thoughts on the employees working at home. Okay. Because, um, you know, most it people like, Oh yeah, we're going to forecast in cases of disruption or a hurricane or a flood or hurricane Sandy, but now with COVID, everyone's working at home. So who would have forecasted a hundred percent, um, you know, work from home, which puts a lot of pressure on him, everything. So I gotta ask you, now that employees are working at home, how do you tie network visibility to the actual user experience? >>Yeah, that's a great question. As you, you know, we saw within our own customer base, you know, when COVID head and we saw this rise of work from home, it teams are really scrambling and said, okay, I have to light up this, say VPN infrastructure, or I need to now be able to support my users in a work from home situation where I don't control the corporate network. In essence, now you have essentially thousands. Every employee is acting across their own corporate network and people were then using thousand eyes in different ways to be able to monitor their safety VPN infrastructure across, uh, back into the corporate network, as well as in using our thousand eyes end point agents that runs on a local, a user's laptop or machine in their home to help you to be able to gain that visibility down to that last mile of connectivity. >>Because when a user calls up support and says, I'm having trouble say accessing my application, whether that's Salesforce or something else, what ultimately might be causing that issue might not necessarily be a Salesforce issue, right? It could be the device and the device performance in terms of CPU, memory utilization. It could be the wifi and the signal quality within your wifi network. It could be your access point. It could be your raw, local home router. It can be your local ISP. It could be the path that you're taking ultimately to your corporate network or that application. There's so many places that could go wrong that are now difficult to be able to see, unless you have the ability to see comprehensively from the user to the application, and to be able to understand that full end to end path, >>You know, it teams have also been disrupted. They've been on offsite prop off property as well, but you got the cloud. How is your technology help the it teams? Can you give some examples there? Um, >>Yeah, great way is, you know, how people use thousand eyes as part of that data sharing ecosystem. Again, that notion of how do you go from visibility to intelligence action and we're in the past, you might be able as an it administrator to walk over to their network team and say, Hey, can you take a look at what I'm seeing now? That's no longer available. So how do you be able to work efficiently as the United organization? You know, we think a thousand eyes in how our customers are using us a thousand times becomes a common operating language that allows them to be able to analyze across from the application down into the underlying infrastructure, through those different layers of the network what's happening. And where do you need to focus your attention? And then furthermore, with 10,000 eyes in terms of a need nibbling, that data sharing ecosystem, leveraging our share link capability really gives them the ability to say, you know, here's what I'm seeing and be able to send that to anybody within the it organization, but it goes even further and many times in recent times, as well as over the course of people using thousand eyes, they take those share links and actually send them to their external providers because they're not just looking to resolve issues within their own it organization. >>They're having to work collaboratively with the different ISP that they're appearing with with their cloud providers that they're appearing, uh, they're leveraging, or the SAS applications that are part of that core dependency of how they deliver their experience. >>I asked you the question when you think about levels of visibility and making the lives easier for it, teams, um, and see a lot of benefits with thousand eyes. You pointed out a few of them. It's got to ask you the question. So if I'm an it person I'm in the trenches, are you guys have, uh, an aspirin or a vitamin or both? Can you give an example because there's a lot of pain point out there. So yeah. Give me a cup, a couple Advils and aspirins, but also you're an enabler to the new things are evolving. You pointed out some use case. You talked about the difference between where you're helping people pain points and also enabling them be successful for it teams. >>Yeah, that's a great analogy. You're thinking it, like you said, it definitely sits on both sides of that spectrum, you know, thousand eyes is the trusted tool, the source of truth for it. Organizations when issues are happening as their alarm bells are ringing, as they are generating the, um, the different, uh, on call, uh, to be able to jump into a worm situation thousand eyes is that trusted source of truth. Allow them to focus, to be able to resolve the issue in the heat of the moment. But that was a nice also when we think about baselining, your experience, what's important is not understanding that experience at that moment in time, but also how that's deviated over time. And so by leveraging thousand eyes on a continuous basis, it gives you the ability to see the history of that experience, to understand how your network is changing is as you mentioned, networks are constantly evolving, right? >>The internet itself is constantly changing. It's an organic system, and you need to be able to understand not only what are the metrics that are moving out of your balance, but then what is potentially the cause of that as a network has evolved. And then furthermore, you can be begin to use that as you mentioned, in terms of your vitamin type of an analogy, to be able to understand the health of your system over time on a baseline basis so that you can begin to be able to ensure its success in a great way to really kind of bring that to light. As people using say, thousand eyes as part of the same SC land-based rollout, where you're looking to seek benchmark and confidence as you look to scale out in either, you know, benchmarking different ISP within that, I feel like connectivity for as you look to ensure a level of success with a single branch to give you that competence, to then scale out to the rest of your organization. >>That's great insights, the classic financial model ROI, you get baseline and upside, right? You got handle the baseline as you pointed out, and the upside music experience connectivity, you know, application performance, which drives revenue, et cetera. So great point. Great insight, Joe. Thank you so much for that insight. It's got a final question for you. I want to just riff a little bit with you on the industry. A lot of us have been having debates about automation. I mean, who doesn't, who doesn't love automation. Automation is awesome, right? Automate things. But as the trend starts going on, as everything is a service or X, a S as it's called, certainly Cisco's going down that road. Talk about your view about the difference between automation and everything is a service because at the end of the day, everything will be a service, but without automation, you really can't have services, right? So, you know, automation, automation, automation, great, great drum to bang all day long, but then also you got the same business side saying as a service, as a service, pushing that into the products means not trivial. Talk about, talk about how you'd look at automation and everything as a service and the relationship and interplay between those two concepts. >>Yeah. Ultimately I think about in terms of what is the problem that the business is trying to solve in ultimately, what is the value that they're trying to face? And in many ways, right, they're being exploded with increase of data that needs, they need to be able to not only processing gather, but then be able to then make use of, and then from that, as we mentioned, once you've processed that data and you'd say, gather the insights from it. You need to be able to then act on that data. And automation plays a key role of allowing you to be able to then put that through your workflow. Because again, as that, it experience becomes even more complex as more and more services get put into that digital supply chain. As you adopt say increased complexity within your infrastructure, by moving to a multicloud architecture where you look to increase the number of say, network services that you're leveraging across that digital experience. >>Ultimately you need the level of automation. You'd be able to see outside of your own vantage point. You need to be able to look at the problem from as broad of a, a broad of a way as possible. And you know, data and automation allows you to be able to do what is fundamentally to do from a very narrow point of view, in terms of the visibility you gather intelligence you generate, and then ultimately, how do you act on that data as quick as possible to be able to provide the value of what you're looking to solve. >>It's like a feature it's under the hood. The feature of everything comes to the surface is automation, data, machine learning, all the goodness in the software. I mean, that's really kind of what we're talking about here. Isn't it a final question for you as we wrap up, uh, dev net create really, again, is going beyond Cisco's dev net community going into the industry ecosystem where developers are there. Um, these are folks that want infrastructure as code. They want network as code. So network programmability, huge topic. We've been having that conversation, uh, with Cisco and others throughout the industry for the past three years. What's your message to developers out there that are watching this who say, Hey, I just want to develop code. Like I want, you know, you guys got that. That was nice. Thanks so much. You know, you take care of that. I just want to write code. What's your message to those folks out there who want to tap some of these new services, these new automation, these new capabilities, what's your message. >>You know, ultimately I think, you know, when you look at thousand eyes, um, you know, from a product perspective, you know, we try to build our product in an API first model to allow you to be able to then shift left of how you think about that overall experience. And from a developer standpoint, you know, what I'd say is, is that while you're developing in your silo, you're going to be part of a larger ultimate system. In your experience you deliver within your application is now going to be dependent upon not only the infrastructure it's running upon, but the network gets connected to, and then ultimately the user and the stance of that user, if I leveraging a thousand eyes and being able to then integrate that into how you think closely on that experience, that's going to help ensure that ultimately the application experience that the is looking to deliver meets that objective. And I think what I would say is, you know, while you need to focus on your, uh, your role as a developer, having the understanding of how you fit into the larger ecosystem and what the reality of the, of how your users will access that application is critical. >>Awesome, Joe, thank you so much. Again, trust is everything letting people understand that what's going on underneath is going to be, you know, viable and capable. You guys got a great product and congratulations on the acquisition that Cisco made of your company. And we've been following you guys for a long time and a great technology chops, great market traction, congratulations to everyone, 1,009. Thanks for coming on today. >>I appreciate it. Thanks for having me >>Vice president of product here with thousand eyes. Now, part of Cisco, John, for your host of the cube cube virtual for dev net, create virtual. Thanks for watching. >>Even prior to the pandemic, there was a mandate to automate the hyperscale cloud companies. They've shown us that to scale. >>You really have to automate your human labor. It just can't keep up with the pace of technology. Now, post COVID that automation mandate is even more pressing. Now what about the marketplace? What are S E seeing on the horizon? The cubes Jeff Frick speaks with Cisco engineers to gather their insights and explore the definite specialized partner program. We've got >>Coon Jacobs. He's the director of systems engineering for Cisco. Good to see Kuhn, >>Thank you for having me >>And joining him as Eric nappy is the VP of system systems engineering for Cisco. Good to see Eric. Good to be here. Thank you. Pleasure. So before we jump into kind of what's going on now in this new great world of programmability and, and control, I want to kind of go back to the future for a minute, because when I was doing some research for this interview, it was Coon. I saw an old presentation that you were giving from 2006 about the changing evolution of the, uh, the changing evolution of networking and moving from. I think the theme was a human centered human centered network. And you were just starting to touch a little bit on video and online video. Oh my goodness, how far we have come, but, but I would love to get kind of a historical perspective because we've been talking a lot and I know Eric son plays football about the football analogy of the network is kind of like an offensive lineman where if they're doing a good job, you don't hear much about them, but they're really important to everything. >>And the only time you hear about them is when a flag gets thrown. So if you look back with the historical perspective, the load and the numbers and the evolution of the network, as we've moved to this modern time, and, you know, thank goodness cause of COVID hit five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, all of us in the information space would not have been able to make this transition. So I just, I just love to get some historical perspective cause you've been kind of charting this and mapping this for a very long time. >>Yeah, we absolutely have. I think, you know, what you're referring to was back in the day, the human network campaign, and to your point, the load, the number of hosts that traffic, the just overall the intelligence of the network has just evolved tremendously over these last decade and a half, uh, 15 years or so. And you look at where we are now in terms of the programmable nature of the network and what that enables in terms of new degrees of relevance that we can create for the customers. Um, and how, you know, the role of it has changed entirely again, especially during this pandemic, you know, the fact that it's now as a service and elastic, uh, is, is absolutely fundamental to being able to ensure, uh, on an ongoing basis, a great customer experience. And so, uh, it's been, it's been, uh, a very interesting ride. >>Yeah. And then, and then just to close the loop, the, one of your more later interviews talking to Sylvia, your question is, are you a developer or an engineer? So it was, and, and your whole advice to all these network engineers is just, just don't jump in and start doing some coding and learning. So, you know, the focus and really the emphasis and where the opportunity to differentiate as a company is completely shifting gears over to the S you know, really software defined side. >>Oh, absolutely. So, I mean, you look at how the software world and the network has come together and how we're applying now, you know, basically the same construct of CICB pipeline to network, uh, infrastructure, look at network really as code and get all of the benefits from that. And the familiarity of it, the way that our engineers have had to evolve. And that is just, you know, quite, quite significant in, in, in like the skill set. And the best thing is jump in, right. Um, you know, dip your toe in the water, but continue to evolve that skill set. And, uh, you know, don't, don't be shy. It's, it's a leap of faith for some of us who've been in the industry a bit longer. Uh, you know, we like to look at ourselves as the craftsman of the network, but now it's definitely a software centricity and programmability, right? >>So Eric, you've got some digital exhaust out there too, that I was able to dig up going back to 2002 752 page book, and the very back corner of a dark dirty dusty Amazon warehouse is managing Cisco network security, 752 pages. Wow. How has security changed from a time where before I could just read a book, a big book and, you know, throw some protocols in and probably block a bunch of ports to the world that we live in today, where everything is connected. Everything is API driven, everything is software defined. You've got pieces of workloads spread out all over the place and Oh, by the way, you need to bake security in at every single level of the application stack. >>Yeah, no I'm so, wow. Cocoon is that you, you found that book on the I'm really impressed. There was a thank you a little street, correct. So, uh, I want to hit on something that you, you talked about. Cause I think it's very important to, to this overall conversation. If we think about the scale of the network and Coon hit on it briefly, you talked about it as well. We're seeing a massive explosion of devices by the I, you know, it's estimated by the end of this year, there's going to be about 27 billion devices on the global internet. That's about 3.7 devices for every man, woman and child life. And if we extrapolate that out over the course of the next decade on the growth trajectory we're on. And if you look at some of the published research on this, it's estimated there could be upwards of 500 billion devices accessing the global internet on a, on a daily basis. >>And primarily that, that, that is a IOT devices. That's digitally connected devices. Anything that can be connected will be connected, but then introduces a really interesting security challenge because every one of those devices that is accessing the global internet is within a company's infrastructure or accessing pieces of corporate data is a potential attack factor. So we really need to, and I think the right for this is we need to reimagine security because security is, as you said, not about perimeters. You know, I wrote that book back in 2002, I was talking about firewalls and a cutting edge technology was intrusion prevention and intrusion detection. Now we need to look at security really in the, in the guise of, or under the, under the, under the realm of really two aspects, the identity who is accessing the data in the context, what data is being accessed. >>And that is going to require a level of intelligence, a level of automation and the technologies like machine learning and automated intelligence are going to be our artificial intelligence rather are going to be table stakes because the sheer scale of what we're trying to secure is going to be untenable, undercurrent, you know, just current security practices. I mean, the network is going to have to be incredibly intelligent and leverage again, a lot of that, uh, that AI type of data to match patterns of potential attacks and ideally shut them down before they ever cause any type of damage. >>Really interesting. I mean, one thing that COVID has done a bunk many things is kind of retaught us all about the power of exponential curves and how extremely large those things are and how fast they grow. We had Dave runs and on a Google cloud a couple of years ago. And I remember him talking about early days of Google when they were starting to map out kind of, as you described kind of map out their growth curves, and they just figured out they could not hire if they hired everybody, they couldn't hire enough people to deal with it. Right. So really kind of rethinking automation and rethinking about the way that you manage these things and the level, right. The old, is it a pet or is it, or is it, um, uh, part of a herd? And I think it's interesting what you talked about, uh, can really the human powered internet and being driven by a lot of this video, but to what you just said, Eric, the next big wave, right. >>Is IOT and five G. And I think, you know, you talk about 3.7 million devices per person. That's nothing compared to right. All these sensors and all these devices and all these factories, cause five G is really targeted to machine the machines, which there's a lot of them and they trade a lot of information really, really quickly. So, you know, I want to go back to you Coon thinking about this next great wave in a five G IOT kind of driven world where it's kind of like when voice kind of fell off compared to IP traffic on the network. I think you're going to see the same thing, kind of human generated data relative to machine generated data is also going to fall off dramatically as a machine generated data, just skyrocket through the roof. >>Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think too, also what Eric touched on the visibility on that, and they'd be able to process that data at the edge. That's going to catalyze cloud adoption even further, and it's going to know, make the role of the network, the connectivity of it all and the security within that crucially important. And then you look at the role of programmability within that. We're seeing the evolution going so fast. You look at the element of the software defined network in an IOT speed space. We see that we have hosts there that are not necessarily, um, you know, behaving like other hosts would, uh, on a network, for example, manufacturing floor, uh, production robot, or a security camera. And what we're seeing is we're seeing partners and customers employing program ability to make sure that we overcome some of the shortcomings, uh, in terms of where the network is at, but then how do you customize it in terms of the relevance that it can provide, uh, bringing on board, uh, those, uh, those hosts in a very transparent way, and then, you know, keep, keep the agility of it and keep the speed of innovation going. >>Right. >>Right. So Eric, I want to come back to you and shift gears kind of back to the people will leave the IOT and the machines along, along for a minute, but I'm curious about what does beat the boss. I mean, I go to your LinkedIn profile and it's just filled with congratulatory statements, but everyone's talking about beating the boss. You know, it's, it's a really, you know, kind of interesting and different way to, to motivate people, to build this new skillset in terms of getting software certifications, uh, within the Cisco world. And I just thought it was really cute the way that you clearly got people motivated, cause there's posts all over the place and they've all got their, their nice big badge or their certification, but, you know, at a higher level, it is a different motivation to be a developer versus an engineer and a technician. And it's kind of a different point of view. And I just wonder if you could share, you know, some of the ways that you're, you're kind of encouraging, you know, kind of this transformation within your own workforce, as well as the partners, et cetera, and really adopting kind of almost a software first and this program kind of point of view versus, you know, I'm just wiring stuff up. >>Apparently a lot of people like to beat me. So of itself was a, was a, it was a great success, but you know, if we think we take a step back, you know, what is Cisco about as an organization? Um, I mean obviously if you look back to the very early days of our vision, right, it was, it was to change the way the world worked, played, live and learn. And that you think about, and you hit on this when we were, you know, you were discussion with co with Kuhn in the early days of COVID. We really saw that play out as so much shifted from, you know, in-person type of interactions to virtual interactions in the network that, uh, that our, our customers, our partners, our employees built over the course of the last several, the last three decades really helped the world continue to, um, to, to do business for students to continue to go to school or clinicians, to connect with patients. >>If I think about that mission to meet programmability is just the next iteration of that mission, continuing to enable the world to communicate, continuing, to enable customers, employees, uh, partners, uh, to essentially leverage the network for more than just connectivity now to leverage it for critical insight. Again, if we look at some of the, uh, some of the use cases that we're seeing for social distancing and contact tracing and network has a really important place to play there because we can pull insight from it, but it isn't necessarily an out of the box type of integration. So I look at programmability and in what we're doing with, with dev net to give relevance to the network for those types of really critical conversations that every organization is having right now, it's a way to extrapolate. It's a way to pull critical data so that I can make a decision. >>And if that decision is automated, or if that decision requires some type of a manual intervention, regardless, we're still about connecting. And in this case, we're connecting insight with the people who need it most, right. The debit challenge we ran is really in respect for how critical this new skill set is going to be. It's not enough. Like I said, just to connect the world anymore. We need to leverage that network, the network for that critical insight. And when we drove, we were, we created the beat, the boss challenge. It was really simple. Hey guys, I think this is important and I am going to go out and I'm going to achieve the certification myself, because I want to continue to be very relevant. I want to continue to be able to provide that insight for my customers and partners. So therefore I'm going for it. Anybody that can get there before me, maybe there's a little incentive tied to the incentive. Although it's funny, we interviewed a lot of, a lot of our team who, uh, who achieved it when incentive was secondary. They just wanted to have the bragging rights, like, yeah, I beat Eric, right. >>You know, putting your money where your mouth is, right. If it's important, then why, you know, you should do it too. And, and you know, the whole, you're not asking people to do what you wouldn't do yourself. So I think there's a lot of good leadership, uh, leadership lessons there as well. But I want to extend kind of the conversation on the covert impact, right? Cause I'm sure you've seen all the social media meme, you know, who's driving your digital transformation, the CEO, the CMO or COVID. And we all know the answer to the question, but you know, you guys have already been dealing with kind of an increased complexity around enterprise infrastructure world in terms of cloud and public cloud and hybrid cloud and multi cloud. And people are trying to move stuff all, all the way around now suddenly had this COVID moment right in, in March, which is really a light switch moment. >>People didn't have time to plan or prepare for suddenly everybody working from home. And it's not only you, but your spouse and your kids and everybody else. So, but now we're six months plus into this thing. And I would just love to get your perspective and kind of the change from, Oh my goodness, we have to react to the light switch moment. What do we do to make sure people can, can get, get what they need when they need it from where they are. Uh, but, but then really moving from this is a, an emergency situation, a stop gap situation to, Hmm, this is going to extend for some period of time. And even when it's the acute crisis is over, you know, this is going to drive a real change in the way that people communicate in the way that people, where they sit and their jobs and, and kind of how customers are responding accordingly as the, you know, kind of the narrative has changed from an emergency stop gap to this is the new normal that we really need to plan for. >>So, uh, I think, I think you said it very well. I think anything that could be digitized, any, any interaction that could be driven virtually was, and what's interesting is we, as you said, we went from that light switch moment where I believe the stat is this, and I'll probably get the number wrong, but like in the United States here at the beginning, at the end of February, about 2% of the knowledge worker population was virtual, you know, working from home or in a remote work environment. And over the course of about 11 days, that number went from 2% to 70%. Wow. Interesting that it worked, you know, there was a lot of hiccups along the way, and there was a lot of organizations making really quick decisions on how do I enable VPN scale of mass? How do I, you know, leverage, uh, you know, things like WebEx for virtual meetings and virtual connectivity, uh, much faster now that as you said, that we kinda gotten out of the fog of war or frog fog of battle organizations are looking at what they accomplished. >>And it was nothing short of Herculean and looking at this now from a transition to, Oh my gosh, we need to change too. We have an opportunity to change. And we're looking, we see a lot of organizations specifically around, uh, financial services, healthcare, uh, the, uh, the K through 20, uh, educational environment, all looking at how can they do more virtually for a couple of reasons. Obviously there is a significant safety factor. And again, we're still in that we're still on the height of this pandemic. They want to make sure their employees, their customers, students, patients remain safe. But second, um, we've found in, in discussions with a lot of senior it executives that are customers that people are happier working from home. People are more productive working from home. And that, again, the network that's been built over the course of the last few decades has been resilient enough to allow that to happen. >>And then third, there is a potential cost savings here outside of people. The next most expensive resource that organizations are paying for is real estate. If they can shrink that real estate footprint while providing a better user experience at the locations that they're maintaining, again, leveraging things like location services, leveraging things like a unified collaboration. That's very personalized to the end user's experience. They're going to do that. And again, they're going to save money. They're going to have happier employees and ultimately they're going to make their, uh, their employees and their customers a lot safer. So we see, we believe that there is in some parts of the economy, a shift that is going to be more permanent in some estimates, put it as high as 15% of the current workforce is going to >>Stay in a virtual or a semi virtual working environment for the foreseeable future. >>Interesting. And I, and I, and I would say, I'd say 15% is low, especially if you, if you qualify it with, you know, part-time right. I, there was a great interview we were doing and talking about working from home, we used to work from home as the exception, right? Cause the cable person was coming, are you getting a new washing machine or something where now that's probably getting, you know, in many cases we'll shift to the other where I'm generally going to work from home, unless, you know, somebody is in town or having an important meeting or there's some special collaboration, uh, that drives me to be in. But you know, I want to go back to you Kuhn and, and really doubled down on, you know, I think most people spent too much time focusing, especially, we'll just say within the virtual events space where we play on the things you can't do virtually, we can't meet in the hall. >>We can't grab a quick coffee and a drink instead of focusing on the positive things like we're accomplishing right here, you're in Belgium, right. Eric is in Ohio, we're in California. Um, and you know, we didn't take three days to travel and, and check into a hotel and, and all that stuff to get together, uh, for this period of time. So there's a lot of stuff that digital enables. And I think, you know, people need to focus more on that versus continuing to focus on the two or three things that, that it doesn't replace and it doesn't replace those. So let's just get that off the table and move on with our lives. Cause those aren't coming back anytime soon. >>No, totally. I think it's the balance of those things. It's guarding the fact that you're not necessarily working for home. I think the trick there is you could be sleeping at the office, but I think the positives are way, way more outspoken. Um, I, you know, I look at myself, I got much more exercise time in these last couple of months than I usually do because you don't travel. You don't have the jet lag and the connection. And then you talked about those face to face moments. I think a lot of people are in a way, um, wanting to go back to the office part-time as, as Eric also explain, but a lot of it you can do virtually we have virtual coffees with team, or, you know, even here in Belgium, our local general manager has a virtual effort, TIF every Friday, obviously skip the one this week. But, uh, you know, there's, there's ways to be very creative with the technology and the quality of the technology that enables, um, you know, to, to get the best of both worlds. Right? >>So I just, we're going to wrap the segment. I want to give you guys both the last word you both been at Cisco for a while and, you know, Susie, we, and the team on dev net has really grown this thing. I think we were there at the very beginning couple of four or five, six years ago. I can't keep track of time anymore, but it has really, really grown. And, you know, the timing is terrific to get into this more software defined world, which is where we are. I wonder if you could just, you know, kind of share a couple of thoughts as you know, with a little bit of perspective and you know, what you're excited about today and kind of what you see coming down the road since you guys have been there for a while you've been in this space, uh, let's start with Yukon. >>I think the possibility it creates, I think really programmability software defined is really >>About the art of the possible it's what you can dream up and then go code. Um, Eric talked about the relevance of it and how it maximizes the relevance on a customer basis. Um, you know, and then it is the evolution of the teams in terms of the creativity that they can bring to us. We've seen really people dive into that and customers co-creating with us. And I think that's where we're going in terms of the evolution of the value proposition there in terms of what technology can provide, but also how it impacts people as we discussed and redefines process >>That the art of the possible, which is a lot harder to execute in a, in hardware than software certainly takes a lot longer. I'd love to get your, uh, your thoughts. >>Absolutely. So I started my career at Cisco, uh, turning, uh, putting IP phones onto the network. And back then, you know, it was, you know, 2001, 2002, when, uh, the idea of putting telephones onto the network was such a, um, just such an objectionable idea. And so many purists were telling us all the reasons it wouldn't work. Now, if we go forward again, 19 years, the idea of not having them plugging into the network is a ridiculous idea. So we have a, we're looking at an inflection point in this industry and it's really, it's not about programming. It's not necessarily about programming. It's about doing it smarter. It's about being more efficient. It's about driving automation, but again, it's, it's about unlocking the value of what the network is. We've moved so far past. What can, you know, just connectivity, the network touches everything and there's more workload moves to the cloud is more workload moves to things like containers. >>Um, the network is the really, the only common element that ties all of these things together. The network needs to take its rightful place in the end, the it lexicon as being that critical or that critical insight provider, um, for, for how users are interacting with the network, how users are interacting with applications, how applications are interacting with one, another program ability is a way to do that more efficiently, uh, with greater a greater degree of certainty with much greater relevance into the overall delivery of it services and digitization. So to me, I think we're going to look back 20 years from now, probably even 10 and say, man, we used to configure things manually. What was that like? I think, I think really this is, this is the future. And I think we want to be aligned with where we're going versus where we've been. Right. >>Well, Coon, Eric, thank you for sharing your perspective. You know, it's, it's really nice to have, you know, some historical reference, uh, and it's also nice to be living in a new age where you can, you can, you know, stay at the same company and still refresh, you know, new challenges, new opportunities and grow this thing. Cause as you said, I remember those IP first IP phone days and I thought, well, my bell must be happy because the old mother's problem is finally solved. And when we don't have to have a dedicated connection between every mother and every child in the middle of may. So good news. So thank you very much for sharing your, uh, your insights and really, uh, really enjoyed the conversation. >>Thank you. >>We've been covering dev net create for a number of years. I think since the very first show and Susie, we and the team really built, uh, a practice built a company, built a lot of momentum around software in the Cisco ecosystem and in getting devs really to start to build applications and drive kind of the whole software defined networking thing forward. And a big part of that is partners and working with partners and, and developing solutions and, you know, using brain power. That's outside of the four walls of Cisco. So we're excited to have, uh, our next guest, uh, partner for someone is Brad Hoss. He is the engineering director for dev ops at Presidio, Brad. Great to see you. >>Hey Jeff, great to be here. >>And joining him is Chuck Stickney. Chuck is the business development architect for Cisco DevNet partners and he has been driving a whole lot of partner activity for a very long period of time. Chuck, great to see you. >>Thanks Jeff. Great to be here and looking forward to this conversation. >>So let's, let's start with you Chuck, because I think, um, you know, you're leading this kind of partner effort and, and you know, software defined, networking has been talked about for a long time and you know, it's really seems to be maturing and, and software defined everything right. Has been taking over, especially with, with virtualization and moving the flexibility and the customer program ability customability in software and Mo and taking some of that off the hardware. Talk about, you know, the programs that you guys are putting together and how important it is to have partners to kind of move this whole thing forward, versus just worrying about people that have Cisco badges. >>Yeah, Jeff, absolutely. So along this whole journey of dev net where we're, we're trying to leverage that customization and innovation built on top of our Cisco platforms, most of Cisco's business is transacted through partners. And what we hear from our customers and our partners is they want to, our customers want a way to be able to identify, does this partner have the capabilities and the skills necessary to help me go down this automation journey I'm trying to do, do a new implementation. I want to automate that. How can I find a partner to, to get there? And then we have some of our partners that have been building these practices going along this step, in that journey with us for the last six years, they really want to say, Hey, how can I differentiate myself against my competitors and give an edge to my customers to show them that, yes, I have these capabilities. I've built a business practice. I have technology, I have technologists that really understand this capability and they have the dub net certifications to prove it helped me be able to differentiate myself throughout our ecosystem. So that's really what our Danette partner specialization is all about. Right. >>That's great. And Brad, you're certainly one of those partners and I want to get your perspective because partners are oftentimes a little bit closer to the customer cause you've got your kind of own set of customers that you're building solutions and just reflect on, we know what happened, uh, back in March 15th, when basically everybody was told to go home and you can't go to work. So, you know, there's all the memes and social media about who, you know, who pushed forward your digital transformation, the CEO, the CMO, or COVID. And we all know what the answer is, whatever you can share some information as to what happened then, and really for your business and your customers, and then reflect now we're six months into it, six months plus, and, and you know, this new normal is going to continue for a while. How's the customer attitudes kind of changed now that they're kind of buckled down past the light switch moment and really we need to put in place some foundation to carry forward for a very long time potentially. >>Yeah, it's really quite interesting actually, you know, when code first hit, we got a lot of requests to help with automation of provisioning our customers and in the whole, you know, digital transformation got really put on hold for a little bit there and I'd say it became more of, of the workplace transformation. So we were quickly, uh, you know, migrating customers to, you know, new typologies where instead of the, the, you know, users sitting in those offices, they were sitting at home and we had to get them connected rapidly in a, we, we didn't have a lot of success there in those beginning months with, you know, using automation and programmability, um, building, you know, provisioning portals for our customers to get up and running really fast. Um, and that, that, that was what it looked like in those early days. And then over time, I'd say that the asks from our customers has started to transition a little bit. >>You know, now they're asking, you know, how can I take advantage of the technology to, you know, look at my offices in a different way, you know, for example, you know, how many people are coming in and out of those locations, you know, what's the usage of my conference rooms. Um, are there, uh, are there, um, situations where I can use that information? Like how many people are in the building and at a certain point in time and make real estate decisions on that, you know, like, do I even need this office anymore? So, so the conversations have really changed in, in ways that you couldn't have imagined before March. >>Right. And I wonder with, with you Chuck, in terms of the Cisco point of view, I mean, the network is amazing. It had had, COVID struck five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, clearly there's a lot of industries that are suffering badly entertainment, um, restaurant, business, transportation, they, you know, hospitality, but for those of us in kind of the information industry, the switch was pretty easy. Um, you know, and, and the network enables the whole thing. And so I wonder if, you know, kind of from your perspective as, as suddenly, you know, the importance of the network, the importance of security and the ability now to move to this new normal very quickly from a networking perspective. And then on top of that, having, you know, dev net with, with the software defined on top, you guys were pretty much in a good space as good as space as you could be given this new challenge thrown at you. >>Yeah, Jeff, we completely agree with that. Uh, Cisco has always pushed the idea that the network is transformational. The network is the foundation, and as our customers have really adopted that message, it is enabled that idea for the knowledge workers to be able to continue on. So for myself, I've, I've worked for home the entire time I've been at Cisco. So the last 13 years, this is, you know, the, the change to the normalcy is I never get on a plane anymore, but my day to day functions are still the same. And it's built because of the capabilities we have with the network. I think the transition that we've seen in the industry, as far as kind of moving to that application type of economy, as we go to microservices, as we go to a higher dependency upon cloud, those things have really enabled the world really to be able to better respond to this, to this COVID situation. And I think it's helped to, to justify the investments that's that our customers have made as well as what our partners have been, being able to do to deliver on that multicloud capability, to take those applications, get them closer to the end user instead of sitting in a common data center and then making it more applicable to, to users wherever they may be, not just inside of that traditional four walls. >>Right, right. That's interesting. And Brad, you, you made a comment on another interview. I was watching getting ready for this one in terms of, uh, applications now being first class citizens was, was what you said. And it's kind of interesting coming from an infrastructure point of view, where before it was, you know, what do I have and what can I build on it now, I really it's the infrastructure that responds back to the application. And even though you guys are both in the business of, of networking and infrastructure, it's still this recognition that apps first is the way to go, because that gives people the competitive advantage that it gives them the ability to react in the marketplace and to innovate and move faster. So, you know, it's, it's a really interesting twist to be able to support an application first, by having a software defined in a more programmable infrastructure stack. >>Yeah, no doubt. And, you know, I think that the whole push to cloud was really interesting in the early days, it was like, Hey, we're going to change our applications to be cloud first. You know? And then I think the terminology changed over time, um, to more cloud native. So when we, when we look at what cloud has done over the past five years with customers moving, you know, their, their assets into the cloud in the early days that we were all looking at it just >>Like another data center, but what it's really become is a place to host your applications. So when we talk about cloud migrations with our customers now, we're, we're no longer talking about, you know, the assets per se, we're talking about the applications and what, what did those applications look like? And even what defines an application right now, especially with the whole move to cloud native and microservices in the automation that helps make that all happen with infrastructure as code. You're now able to bundle the infrastructure with those applications together as a single unit. So when you define that application, as infrastructure, as code the application in the definition of what those software assets for the infrastructure are, all are wrapped together and you've got change control, version control, um, and it's all automated, you know, it's, it's a beautiful thing. And I think it's something that we've all kind of hoped would happen. >>You know, when I look back at the early definitions of software defined networking, I think everybody was trying to figure it out and they didn't really fully understand what that meant now that we can actually define what that network infrastructure could look like as it's, as it's wrapped around that application in a code template, maybe that's Terraform or Ansible, whatever that might be, whatever method or tool that you're using to, to bring it all together. It's, it's, you know, it's really interesting now, I think, I think we've gotten to the point where it's starting to make a lot more sense than, you know, those early days of SDN, uh we're out, you know, it was a, was it a controller or is it a new version of SNMP? You know, now it makes sense. It's actually something tangible. Right, >>Right. But still check, as you said, right. There's still a lot of API APIs and there's still a lot of component pieces to these applications that are all run off the network that all have to fit, uh, that had to fit together. You know, we cover PagerDuty summit and you know, their whole thing is trying to find out where the, where the problems are within the very few microseconds that you have before the customer abandons their shopping cart or whatever the particular application. So again, the network infrastructure and the program ability super important. But I wonder if you could speak to the automation because there's just too much stuff going on for individual people to keep track of, and they shouldn't be keeping track of it because they need to be focusing on the important stuff, not this increasing amount of bandwidth and traffic going through the network. >>Yeah, absolutely. Jeff said the bandwidth that's necessary in order to support everybody working from home to support this video conference. I mean, we, we used to do this sitting face to face. Now we're doing this over the internet. The amount of people necessary to, to be able to facilitate that type of traffic. If we're doing it the way we did 10 years ago, we would not >>Scale it's automation. That makes that possible. That allows us to look higher up the ability to do that automatic provisional provisioning. Now that we're in microservices now that everything is cloud native, we have the ability to, to better, to better adjust to and adapt to changes that happen with the infrastructure below hand. So if something goes wrong, we can very quickly spend something up to take that load off where traditionally it was open up a ticket. Let me get someone in there, let me fix it. Now it's instantaneously identify the solution, go to my playbook, figure out exactly what solution I need to deploy and put that out there. And the network engineering team, the infrastructure engineering team, they just simply need to get notified that this happened. And as long as there's traceability and a point that Brad made, as far as you being able to go through here doing the automation of the documentation side of it. >>I know when I was a network engineer, one of the last things we ever did was documentation. But now that we have the API is from the infrastructure. And then the ability to tie that into other systems like an IP address management or a change control, or a trouble ticketing system, that whole idea of I made an infrastructure change. And now I can automatically do that documentation update and record. I know who did it. I know when they did it and I know what they did, and I know what the test results were even five years ago, that was fantasy land. Now, today that's just the new normal, that's just how we all operate. >>Right. Right, right. So I want to get your take on the other trend, which is cloud multicloud, public cloud. You know, as, as I think you said Brad, when public cloud first came out, there was kind of this, this rush into, we're going to throw everything in there then for, for, for different reasons. People decided maybe that's not the best, the best solution, but really it's horses for courses. Right. And, and I think it was pretty interesting that, that you guys are all supporting the customers that are trying to figure out where they're going to put their workloads. And Oh, by the way, that might not be a static place, right. It might be moving around based on, you know, maybe I do my initial dev and, and, and Amazon. And then when I go into production, maybe I want to move it into my data center. >>And then maybe I'm having a big promotion or something I want to flex capability. So from, from your perspective and helping customers work through this, because still there's a lot of opinions about what is multicloud, what is hybrid cloud and, you know, it's horses for courses. How are you helping people navigate that? And what does having programmable infrastructure enable you to do for helping customers kind of sort through, you know, everybody talks about their journey. I think there's still kind of bumbling down, bumbling down paths, trying to find new things, what works, what doesn't work. And I think it's still really early days and trying to mesh all this stuff together. Yeah, >>Yeah. No doubt. It is still early days. And you know, I, I, I go back to it being application centric because, you know, being able to understand that application, when you move to the cloud, it may not look like, what did he still look like when you, when you move it over there, you may be breaking parts off of it. Some of them might be running on a platform as a service while other pieces of it are running as infrastructure as a service. >>And some of it might still be in your data center. Those applications are becoming much more complex than they used to be because we're breaking them apart into different services. Those services could live all over the place. So with automation, we really gain the power of being able to combine those things. As I mentioned earlier, those resources, wherever they are, can be defined in that infrastructure as code and automation. But you know, the side from provisioning, I think we focus a lot about provisioning. When we talk about automation, we also have these amazing capabilities on, on the side of operations too. Like we've got streaming telemetry in the ability to, to gain insights into what's going on in ways that we didn't have before, or at least in the, in, you know, in the early days of monitoring software, right. You knew exactly what that device was, where it was. >>It probably had a friendly name, like maybe it was, uh, something from the Hobbit right now. You've got things coming up and spinning and spinning up and spinning down, moving all over the place. And that thing you used to know what that was. Now, you have to quickly figure out where it went. So the observability factor is a huge thing that I think everybody should be paying attention to attention, to moving forward with regards to when you're moving things to the cloud or even to other data centers or, you know, in your premise, um, breaking that into microservices, you really need to understand what's going on in the, you know, programmability and API APIs and, you know, yang models are tied into streaming telemetry. Now there's just so many great things coming out of this, you know, and it's all like a data structure that, that people who are going down this path and the dev net path, they're learning these data structures and being able to rationalize and make sense of them. And once you understand that, then all of these things come together, whether it's cloud or a router or switch, um, Amazon, you know, it doesn't matter. You're, you're all speaking a common language, which is that data structure. >>That's great. Chuck, I want to shift gears a little bit, cause there was something that you said in another interview when I was getting ready for this one about, about Deb, not really opening up a whole different class of partners for Cisco, um, as, as really more of a software, a software lead versus kind of the traditional networking lead. I wonder if you can put a little more color on that. Um, because clearly as you said, partners are super important. It's your primary go to market and, and Presidios, I'm sure the best partner that you have in the whole world that's and you know, you said there's some, there's some non traditional people that would not ever be a Cisco partner that suddenly you guys are playing with because of really software lead. >>Yeah. Jeff that's exactly right. So as we've been talking to folks with dev nets and whether it'd be at one of the Cisco live events in the dev net zone or at the prior dev net create events, we'll have, we'll have people come up to us who Cisco today views us as a customer because they're not in our partner ecosystem. They want to be able to deliver these capabilities to our customers, but they have no interest in being in the resell market. This what we're doing with the dev that specialization gives us the ability to bring those partners into the ecosystem, share them with our extremely large dev net community so they can get access to those, to those potential customers. But also it allows us to do partner to partner type of integration. So Brad and Presidio, they built a fantastic networking. They always have the fantastic networking business, but they built this fantastic automation business that's there, but they may come into, into a scenario where it's working with their vertical and working with the technology piece, that they may not have an automation practice for. >>We can leverage some of these software specific partners to come in there and do a joint, go to markets where, so they can go where that traditional channel partner can leverage their deep Cisco knowledge in those customer relationships that they have and bring in that software partner almost as a subcontractor to help them deliver that additional business value on top of that traditional stack, that brings us to this business outcomes. If the customers are looking for and a much faster fashion and a much more collaborative fashion, that's terrific. Well, again, it's a, it's, it's unfortunate that we can't be in person. I mean, the, the Cisco dev net shows, you know, they're still small, they're still intimate. There's still a lot of, uh, information sharing and, you know, great to see you. And like I said, we've been at the computer museum, I think the last couple of years and in, in San Francisco. So I look forward to a time that we can actually be together, uh, maybe, maybe for next year's event, but, uh, thank you very much for stopping by and sharing the information. Really appreciate it. It happens happy to be here >>From around the globe. It's the cube presenting, accelerating automation with dev net brought to you by Cisco. What I'm Sean for the cube, your host for accelerating automation with dev net with Cisco. And we're here to close out the virtual event with Mindy Whaley, senior director, Mandy, take it away. >>Thank you, John. It's been great to be here at this virtual event, hearing all these different automation stories from our different technology groups, from customers and partners. And what I'd like to take a minute now is to let people know how they can continue this experience at dev net create, which is our free virtual event happening globally. On October 13th, there's going to be some really fun stuff. We're going to have our annual demo jam, which is kind of like an open for demos where the community gets to show what they've been building. We're also going to be, um, giving out and recognizing our dev net creator award winners for this year, which is a really great time where we recognize our community contributors who have been giving back to the community throughout the year. And then we find really interesting channels. We have our creators channels, which is full of technical talks, lightening talks. >>This is where our community, external Cisco people come in share what they've been working on, what they've been working learning during the year. We also have a channel called API action, which is where you can go deep into IOT or collaboration or data center automation and get demos talks from engineers on how to do certain use cases. And also a new segment called straight from engineering, where you get to hear from the engineers, building those products as well. And we have a start now for those people just getting started, who may need to dive into some basics around coding, API APIs and get that's a whole channel dedicated to getting them started so that they can start to participate in some of the fun challenges that we're going to have during the event. And we're going to have a few fun things. Like we have some definite, um, advocate team members who are awesome, musically talented. They're going to share some performances with us. So, um, we encourage everyone to join us there. Pick your favorite channel, uh, join us in whichever time zone you live in. Cause we'll be in three different time zones. And, um, we would love for you to be there and to hear from you during the event. >>That's awesome. Very innovative, multiple time zones, accelerating automation with dev net. Thank you so much for watching and we'll see you at dev net create thanks for watching.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting accelerating automation with definite brought to you by >>Cisco We're back. This is Dave Volonte and TK Kia Ninis here he's a distinguished engineer at Cisco TK My friend. Good to see you again. >>How are you? >>Good. I mean, you and I were in Barcelona in January and, you know, way saw this thing coming, But we didn't see it coming this way, did we? >>No, I have. No one did, but yeah, it, uh that was right before everything happened. >>Well, it's weird, right? I mean, we were you know, we it was in the back of our minds in January. We said Barcelona hasn't really been hit yet. Looked like it was really isolated in China. But But wow, what a change. And I guess I guess I'd I'd start with that. We're seeing really a secular change in your space and security identity access management, cloud security, endpoint security. I mean, all of a sudden, these things have exploded as the work from home pivot has occurred on it. It feels like these changes are permanent or semi permanent. What are you seeing out there? >>Yeah, I don't I don't think anybody thinks the world's gonna go back the way it waas. Um, to some degree, it's it's changed forever. Um, you know, I I do a lot of my work remotely on bond. And so, you know, being a remote worker isn't such a big deal for me. But for some, it was, ah, huge impact. And like I said, you know, remote work, remote education, you know, everybody's on Thea opposite side of a computer. And so the digital infrastructure has just become a lot more important to protect. And the integrity of it essentially is almost our own integrity these days. >>Yeah, And when you see that you know that work from home pivot I mean, you know, our estimates are along with a partner GTR. About 16% of the workforce was at home working from home prior to co vid, and now it's, you know, north to 70% plus and and that's going to come down maybe a little bit over the next six months. We'll see what happens with the fall surge. But people essentially, except expect that to the you know, at least double that 16% you know, going forward and definitely So what is that? What kind of pressure does that put on the security infrastructure and and how? How organizations are approaching security. >>Yeah, I just think from a mindset standpoint, you know what Waas optional? Uh, maybe, uh, last year, eyes no longer optional. And I don't think it's going to go back. I think I think a lot of people have changed the way you know they live and the way they work. Um and they're doing it in ways. Hopefully that, you know, in some cases, yield more productivity again. Um, you know, usually with technology that's severely effective, it doesn't pick sides. So the security slant to it is it frankly works Justus Well, for the bad guys. And so that's That's the balance we need to keep. Which is we need Thio be extra diligent on how we go about securing infrastructure, how we go about securing even our our social channels. Because remember all our social channels now our digital so that's has become the new norm. >>You know, you've helped me understand over the years. I remember the line you shared with me in the Cube one time. Is it the adversary is highly capable of sort of the phrase that you used And essentially the way you describe it is you know, your job as a security practitioner is to decrease the bad guys, return on investment, you know, increase their cost, increase the numerator. But as as works just from home, Yeah, I'm in my house, you know, by my wife, I and my you know, router with my you know, dog's name is the password. You know, it's much, much harder for me. Thio, increase that denominator at home. So how can you help? >>Yeah, I mean, it is It is truly when you think when you get into the mind of the adversary and, uh, you know, cybercrime out there, there, honestly, there, like any other business they're trying toe, you know, operate with high margin. And so if you can get there, if you can get in there and erode their margin, they'll they'll frankly go find something else to do. Um, and and again, you know, you know, the shift we experience day to day is you know, it's not just our kids are online in school, and our work is online, but all the groceries we order, You know, this Thanksgiving and holiday season Ah, lot more online shopping is going to take place. Eso you know, everything's gone digital. And so the question is you know how How do we up our game there so that, um we can go about our business effectively and make it very expensive for the adversary toe operate on take care of their business because it's nasty stuff. I want to >>ask you about automation, you know, generally and then specifically how it applies to security. So we, I mean, we certainly saw the ascendancy of the hyper scale er's. And of course, they really attacked the I t labor problem. We learned a lot from that, and an I T organizations have applied much of that thinking and the it's critical at scale. I mean, you just can't scale humans at the pace that technology scales today. How does that apply to security? And specifically, how is automation affecting security? >>Yeah, it z the topic these days. Um, you know, businesses, I think, realize that they can't continue to grow at human scale. And so the reason why automation and things like ai and machine learning have a lot of value is because everyone's trying to expand on operate at machine scale. Now. I mean that for for businesses. I mean that for, you know, education and everything else. Now, so are the adversaries, right. So it's expensive for them to operate at human scale, and they are going to machine scale, go into machine scale. A necessity is that you're going to have to harness some level of automation, have the machines work on your behalf, Have the machines carry your intent. Andi, when you do that, you can do it, uh, safely or you could do it dangerously. And that that's that's really kind of your choice. Um, you know, just because you can automate something doesn't mean you should. You wanna make sure that, frankly, the adversary can't get in there and use that automation on their behalf. So it's a tricky thing because, you know, when you take the phrase you know, how do we How do we automate security? Well, you actually have to take care of of securing the automation first. >>Yeah, we talked about this in Barcelona, where you were explaining that you know, the bad guys, the adversaries essentially, you know, weaponizing using your own tooling, which makes them appear safe because they're hiding in plain sight. Right there >>is a, um Well, there's they're clever, Given that, you know, there's this phrase that they always talk about called living off the land. Um, there's no sense in them coming into your network and bringing their tools and and being detected. You know, if they can use the tools that's already there, then they have, ah, higher degree of evading your protection. If they can pose as Alice or Bob who's already been credential and move around your network, then they're moving around the network as Alice or Bob. They're not, you know, marked as the adversary. So again, you know, having the detection methods available to find their behavioral anomalies and things like that become, ah, Paramount. But also, you know, having the automation to contain them, to eradicate them, to minimize their effectiveness. Um, without e mean ideally without human interaction, because you just can you move faster, you move quicker. Andi, I say that with an asterisk because, um, if done wrong, frankly you're just making their job or effect. >>I wonder if I could talk about the market a little bit. Uh, it's, I mean, security space cybersecurity 80 plus billion, which, by the way, it's just a little infant testable component of our GDP. So we're not spending nearly enough to protect that It that massive, uh, GDP. But guys, I wonder if you could bring up the the chart. Because when you talk to CSOs and you ask them what you're what, your biggest challenge to say, lack of talent and and so what? This chart shows this is from e T. R R R survey partner, and on the vertical axis is net score. And that's an indication of spending momentum. On the horizontal axis is market share, which is a measure of presence. Pervasiveness, if you will, inside the data sets. And so there's a couple of key points here I wanted toe put forth to our audience and then get your reaction. So you see Cisco I highlighted in red. Cisco's business and security is very, very strong. We see it every quarter. It's a growth area that Chuck Robbins talks about on the on the conference call, and so you can see on the horizontal axis you've got, you know, big presence in the data set. I mean, Microsoft is out there, but they're everywhere. But you're right there, Um, in that in that data set and then you've got for such a large presence, you've got a lot of momentum in the marketplace, so that's very impressive. The other point here is you've got this huge buffet of options. There's just a zillion vendors here, and that just adds to the complexity. This is, of course, only a subset of what's in the security space. You know, the people who answered for the survey. So my question is, how can Cisco help you simplify this picture? Is it automation? Is it? You know, you guys have done some really interesting tuck in acquisitions, and you're bringing that integration together. Can you talk about that a little bit? >>Yeah. I mean, that's an impressive chart. I mean, when you look to the left There it z, I had a customer, you know, Tell me once that you know, I I came to this trade show looking for transportation, and these people are trying toe Selmi car parts. That's the frustration customers have, you know? And I think What Cisco has done really well is to really focus on outcomes. Um, what is the customer outcome? Because, ultimately that's that is what the customer wants. You know, there might be a few steps to get to that outcome, but the closest you closer you can get to delivering outcomes for the customer, the better you are. And I think I think security in general has just year over year been just written with. You need to be an expert. You need to buy all these parts and put it together yourself. And I think I think those days are behind us. But particularly as as security becomes more pervasive and we're, you know, we're selling to the business. We're not selling to the, you know, T shirt wearing hacker anymore. >>Yeah, well, how does cloud fit in here? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about Cloud. People think I put my data in the cloud. I'm safe. But you know, of course, we know it's a shared responsibility model, so I'm interested in your your thoughts on that. Is it really? Is it a sense of complacency? A lot of the cloud vendors, by the way, say no state of security is great in the cloud where, as you know, many of us out there saying, Wow, it z not so great. Eso What are your thoughts on that? That whole narrative and what Cisco's play in cloud? >>I think. Cloud, um, when you look at the services that are delivered via the cloud, you see that exact pattern, which is you see customers paying for the outcome or as close to the outcome as possible? Um, you know, no, no data center required. No, this Dr required, you just get storage. You know, it Z all of those things that are again closer to the outcome. I think the thing that interests me about cloud to is it's really been It's really punctuated the way we go about building systems, um, again, at machine scale. So, you know, before when I write code and I think about what computer is it going to run on? Are you know what servers are gonna Is it gonna run on those? Those thoughts never crossed my mind anymore. You know, I'm modeling the intent of what the service should do and the machines then figure it out. So you know, for instance, on Tuesday, if the entire Internet shows up the system, you know, works without fail. And on Wednesday Onley North America shows up, you know, so what? But there's no way you could staff that right. There is just no human scale approach that gets you there. And that's that's the beauty of all of this cloud stuff. Is, um, it really is the next level of how we do computer science. >>So you're talking about infrastructure is code, and that applies to you know, security is code. That's what you know definite is really all about. I've said many times. I think Cisco of the large established enterprise companies is one of the few, if not the only that really has figured out. You know that developer angle because it's practical. You're not trying to force your way into developers. But, you know, I wonder if you could you could talk a little bit about that trend. Andi, where you see it going? >>Yeah. No, that is That is truly the trend. Every time I walk into Devon yet, um, the big halls at at Cisco Live it is Cisco as code. Everything about Cisco is being presented through an A P I. It is automation ready, and and frankly, that is that is the love language of the cloud. Um, it's machines. It's the machines talking to machines in very effective ways. So, you know, it is the I think I think necessary maybe not sufficient but necessary for, um, you know, doing all the machine scale stuff. What? What's also necessary Eyes thio to secure if infrastructure is code. Therefore, um what what secure what security methodologies do we have today that we used to secure code? While we have automated testing, we have threat modeling, right? Those things actually have to be now applied to infrastructure. So when I when I talk about how do you do automation securely, You do it the same way you secure your code, you test it, you threat model, you say, You know, Ken, my adversary exhibit something here that drives the automation in a way that I didn't intended to go. Eso all of those practices apply. It's just everything as code these days. >>Today I've often said that security and privacy or sort of two sides of the same coin and I wanna ask you a question and it's really you know, to me, it's not necessarily Cisco, and companies like companies like Cisco is responsibility, but I wonder if there's a way in which you could help. And of course, this this, you know, Netflix documentary circling around the social dilemma. I don't know if you have a chance to see it, but basically dramatizes the way in which companies air appropriating our data, tell us ads and, you know, creating our own little set of facts, etcetera. And that comes down to sort of how we think about privacy. And I mean, it's good from the standpoint of awareness, you know, you may or may not care if you're, you know, social media user. I love tic tac. I don't care, but but But they sort of laid out This is pretty scary scenario with a lot of the inventors of those technologies. You have any thoughts on that? And, you know, can Cisco play a role there in terms of protecting our privacy? I mean, beyond GDP R and California Consumer Privacy Act. Um, what do you think? >>Yeah, um, I'll give you my You know, my humble opinion is you you fix social problems with social tools, you fix technology problems with technology tools. Um, I think there is a social problem. Um, that needs to be rectified. You know, um, we we weren't built as human beings to live and interact with an environment that agrees with us all the time. Just It's just pretty wrong. So, yeah, that that that that serious did really kind of wake up a lot of people. It is. It is. You know, it's probably every day I hear somebody asked me if I saw um but I do think it also, you know, with that level of awareness, I think we we overcome it or we we compensate by what number one? Just being aware that is happening. Um, number two. You know how you go about solving it. I think maybe come down Thio an individual or even a community's solution And what might be right for one community might be, you know, not the same for the other. So you have to be respectful in that manner. >>Yeah. So it's it's It's almost I think if I could, you know, play back. What I heard is is yeah, technology, Maybe got us into this problem. But technology alone is not going to get us out of the problem. It's not like some magic A I bought is going to solve this. It's gonna be, you know, society has to really, really take this on. Is your premise good one? >>When I when I first started playing online games, I'm going back to, you know, the text based adventure stuff like muds and moos. I did a talk it at m i t one time and this old curmudgeon in the back of the room, um, we were talking about democracy and we were talking about, you know, the social process that we had modeled in our game and this and that, and this guy just gave us the Smackdown. He basically walked up to the front of the room and said, You know, all you techies, you judge efficiency by how long it takes. He says, democracy that completely the opposite, which is you need to sleep on it. In fact, you should be scared. If somebody can decide in a minute what is good for the community, it two weeks later, they probably have a better idea of what's good for the community, so it almost has the opposite dynamic. And that was super interesting to me. >>That's really interesting. You know, you read the Lincoln historians, and he was criticized in the day for having taken so long, you know, to make certain decisions. But, you know, ultimately, when he acted, he acted with with confidence. So to that point, but So what else you working on these days? That is interesting that maybe you want to share with our audience anything. It's really super exciting for you or you. >>Yeah. You know, generally speaking, um, trying, trying to make it a little harder for the bad guys to operate. I guess that's Ah general theme making it simpler for the common person to use tools again. You know, all of these security tools, no matter how fancy it is, it's not that we're losing the complexity. It's that we're moving the complexity away from the user so that they can drive at human scale and we can do things. That machine scale and kind of working those two together is it's sort of the magic recipe. Um, it's not easy, but but it is. It is fun So that's that's what keeps me engaged. >>I'm definitely seeing I wonder if you see it. Just sort of Ah, obviously a heightened organization awareness. But I'm also seeing shifts in the organizational structures. You know, the, You know, it used to be the SEC ops team in an island. Okay, it's your problem. You know, the CSO cannot report into the to the CEO, because that's like the fox in the hen house. A lot of those structures are are changing, it seems, and becoming this responsibility is coming much more ubiquitous across the organization. What are you seeing there and what do >>you know? It's so familiar to me because, you know, um, I started out as a musician. So, you know, bands bands are great analogy. You know, you play bass, I big guitar. You know, somebody else plays drums. Everybody knows their role, and you create something that's larger than you know, some of all parts. And so that that analogy, I think is coming to, you know, way saw it. Sort of with Dev ops where, you know, the developer doesn't just throw their quote over the wall and it's somebody else's problem. They moved together as a band. And and that's what I think organizations air seeing is that you know why? Why stop there? Why not include marketing? Why not include sales? Why don't we move together as a business? Not just. Here's the product. And here's the rest of the business s. Oh, that's that's That's pretty awesome. I think we see a lot of those patterns, particularly for the highly high performance businesses, >>you know, In fact, it's interesting you for great analogy, by the way. And you actually seeing that within Cisco, you're seeing sort of, uh and I know sometimes you guys, you know, I don't like to talk about the plumbing, but I think it matters. I mean, you gotta leadership structure. Now, I I've talked to many of them. They seem to really be more focused on how their connect connecting, you know, across organizations. And it's increasingly critical in this world of you know, of silo busters, isn't it? >>Yeah. No. And you, you Almost as you move further and further away, you know, you can see how ridiculous it was before it would be like acquiring a band and say, Okay, all you guitar players go over here. All you bass players go over there like what happened to the band s. So that's that's what I'm talking about is, you know, moving all of those disciplines moving together, um, and servicing the same backlog and achieving the same successes together is just so awesome. >>Well, I was I always, uh, feel better after talking to you. You know? I remember. I remember Art. Coviello used to put out his, uh, his letter every year. And I was reading I get depressed. Yeah, we spend all this money now, we're less secure. But when I talked to you, t k I I feel like much more optimistic. So I really appreciate the time you spend on the cubits. It's awesome to have you as a guest. >>Right on. I love these. I love these sessions, So thanks. Thanks for inviting me. >>And I miss you. You know, hopefully you know, next year's we could get together at some of the Cisco shows or other shows, but be well and stay weird like the sign says >>doing my part. >>All right, T k. Kennedy. Thanks so much for coming in the queue. We we really appreciate it. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volonte. We've right back with our next guest right after this short break.

(Techno music) >> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE! Presenting, Accelerating Automation, with DevNet. Brought to you by Cisco (Techno music ends) >> We're back, this is Dave Vellante, and TK Keanini is here. He's a distinguished engineer at Cisco. TK, my friend good to see you again. >> How are you? >> Good, I mean you and I were in Barcelona in January, and yeah, we saw this thing coming but we didn't see it coming this way, did we? >> No, no one did. But yeah, that was right before everything happened. >> Well, it's weird. I mean, it was in the back of our minds in January, we started, "Well, Barcelona hasn't really been hit yet." It looked like it was really isolated in China, but wow, what a change. And I guess I'd start with, we're seeing really a secular change in your space, in security; identity, access, management, cloud security, endpoint security. I mean, all of a sudden these things explode as the work from home pivot has occurred, and it feels like these changes are permanent or semi-permanent. What are you seeing out there? >> Yeah, I don't think anybody thinks the world's going to go back the way it was. To some degree, it's changed forever. I do a lot of my work remotely, and so being a remote worker, isn't such a big deal for me, but for some, it was a huge impact. And like I said, remote work, remote education, everybody's on the opposite side of a computer. And so the digital infrastructure has just become a lot more important to protect, and the integrity of it essentially is almost our own integrity these days. >> Yeah, and when you see that work from home pivot, I mean, our estimates along with our partner, DTR, about 16% of the workforce was at home working from home prior to COVID, and now it's north of 70% plus, and that's going to come down maybe a little bit over the next six months, we'll see what happens with the fall surge. But people essentially expect that to at least double, that 16% going forward indefinitely. So what kind of pressure does that put on the security infrastructure and how organizations are approaching security? >> Yeah, I just think from a mindset standpoint, what was optional maybe last year is no longer optional. And I don't think it's going to go back. I think a lot of people have changed the way they live and the way they work, and they're doing it in ways, hopefully that in some cases yield more productivity. Again, usually with technology that's severely effective, it doesn't pick sides. So the security slant to it is, it frankly works just as well for the bad guys. And so that's the balance we need to keep, which is, we need to be extra diligent on how we go about securing infrastructure how we go about securing even our social channels. Because remember all our social channels now are digital. So that's become the new norm. >> You've helped me understand over the years. I remember a line you shared with me in theCUBE one time is that the adversary is highly capable, I'll sort of the phrase that you used. And essentially the way you described it is, your job as a security practitioner is to decrease the bad guys' return on investment, increase their costs, increase the numerator. But as work shifts from home, I'm in my house. My Wi-Fi and my router, with my dog's name is the password. It's much much harder for me to increase that denominator at home. So (chuckles) how can you help? >> Yeah, I mean, it is truly, when you get into the mind of the adversary and the cyber crime out there, they're honestly just like any other business. They're trying to operate with high margins. And so if you can get in there and erode their margin, they'll frankly go find something else to do. And again, the shift we experience day to day is it's not just our kids are online in school, and our work is online, but all the groceries we order, this Thanksgiving and holiday season, a lot more online shopping is going to take place. So everything's gone digital. And so the question is, how do we up our game there so that we can go about our business effectively and make it very expensive for the adversary to operate and take care of their business? 'Cause it's nasty stuff. >> I want to ask you about automation generally, and then specifically how it applies to security. I mean, we certainly saw the ascendancy of the hyperscalers and of course they really attacked the IT labor problem. We learned a lot from that, and IT organizations have applied much of that thinking. And it's critical at scale. I mean, you just can't scale humans at the pace that technology scales today. How does that apply to security, and specifically, how is automation affecting security? >> Yeah, it's the topic these days. Businesses, I think realize that they can't continue to grow at human scale. And so the reason why automation and things like AI and machine learning have a lot of value is because everyone's trying to expand and operate at machine scale. Now, I mean that for businesses, I mean that for education, and everything else now, so are the adversaries. So it's expensive for them to operate at human scale, and they are going to machine scale. Going to machine scale, a necessity is that, you're going to have to harness some level of automation; have the machines work on your behalf, have the machines carry your intent. And when you do that you can do it safely, or you could do it dangerously. (chuckles) And that's really kind of your choice. Just because you can automate something doesn't mean you should. You want to make sure that frankly, the adversary can't get in there and use that automation on their behalf. So it's a tricky thing because, when you take the phrase, how do we automate security? Well, you actually have to take care of securing the automation first. >> Yeah, we talked about this in Barcelona where you were explaining that, the the bad guys, the adversaries are essentially weaponizing, using your own tooling which makes them appear safe. Because they're hiding in plain sight. >> Right? >> That's scary. >> Well, they're clever, (chuckles) I'll giving them that. There's this phrase that they they always talk about, called, living off the land. There's no sense in them coming into your network and bringing their tools, and being detected. If they can use the tools that's already there, then they have a higher degree of evading your protection. If they can pose as Alice or Bob, who's already been credentialed, and move around your network, then they're moving around the network as Alice or Bob. They're not marked as the adversary. So again, having the detecting methods available to find their behavioral anomalies, and things like that, become a paramount, but in also having the automation to contain them, to eradicate them, to minimize their effectiveness, I mean, ideally without human interaction. 'Cause you move faster, you move quicker. And I say that with an asterisk, because if done wrong, frankly, you're just making their job more effective. >> I wonder if we could talk about the market a little bit. I'm mean, the security space, cybersecurity, 80 plus billion, which by the way, is just a little infinitesimal component of our GDP. So we're not spending nearly enough to protect that massive GDP. But guys, I wonder if you could bring up the chart, because when you talk to CSOs and you ask them, "What's your biggest challenge?" They'll say, "Lack of talent." And so what this chart shows, this is from ETR, our survey partner. And on the vertical axis is net score, and that's an indication of spending momentum, on the horizontal axis is market share, which is a measure of presence, pervasiveness, if you will, inside the data sets. And so there's a couple of key points here, I wanted to put forth to our audience and then get your reactions. So you can see Cisco highlighted in red. Cisco's business and security is very, very strong. We see it every quarter, it's a growth area that Chuck Robbins talks about on the conference calls. And so you can see on the horizontal axis you've got a big presence in the data set. I mean, Microsoft is out there, but they're everywhere. But you're right there in that data set. And then you've got, for such a large presence, you've got a lot of momentum in the marketplace, so that's very impressive. But the other point here is you've got this huge buffet of options. There's just a zillion vendors here, and that just adds to the complexity. This is of course only a subset of what's in the security space, the people who answered for the survey. So my question is, how can Cisco help simplify this picture? Is it automation? You guys have done some really interesting token acquisitions, and you're bringing that integration together. Can you talk about that a little bit? >> Yeah, I mean, that's an impressive chart. I mean, when you look to the left there, it's... I had a customer tell me once that, "I came to this trade show looking for transportation and these people are trying to sell me car parts." That's the frustration customers have. And I think what Cisco has done really well is, to really focus on outcomes. What is the customer outcome? 'Cause ultimately that's, that is what the customer wants. There might be a few steps to get to that outcome, but the closer you can get to delivering outcomes for the customer, the better you are. And I think security in general has just year over year have been just ridden with, "You need to be an expert." "You need to buy all these parts and put it together yourself." And I think those days are behind us, but particularly as security becomes more pervasive. and we're selling to the business, we're not selling to the T-shirt wearing hacker anymore. >> Well, how does cloud fit in here? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about cloud. People think, "I'll put my data in the cloud I'm safe," but of course we know it's a shared responsibility model. So I'm interested in your thoughts on that. Really is it a sense of complacency? A lot of the cloud vendors, by the way say, "Oh, the state of security is great in the cloud." Whereas many of us out there saying, "Wow, it's not so great." So what are your thoughts on that whole narrative, and what's Cisco's play in cloud? >> I think cloud, when you look at the services that are delivered via the cloud, you see that exact pattern which is you see customers paying for the outcome or as close to the outcome as possible. No data center required, no distract required, you just get storage. It's all of those things that are again, closer to the outcome. I think the thing that interests me about cloud too is, it's really punctuated the way we go about building systems, again, at machine scale. Before, when I write code and I think about "Oh, what computers are going to run on, what servers is it going to run on?" Those thoughts never cross my mind anymore. I'm modeling the intent of what the service should do, and the machines then figure it out. So for instance on Tuesday, if the entire internet shows up, the system works without fail. And on Wednesday, if only North America shows up, you have so much. But there's no way you could staff that. There's just no human-scale approach that gets you there. And that's the beauty of all of this cloud stuff is, it really is the next level of how we do computer science. >> So you're talking about infrastructure as code and that applies to security as code, that's what DevNet is really all about. I've said many times, I think Cisco, of the the large established enterprise companies, is one of the few if not the only, that really has figured out that developer angle. Because it's practical, you're not trying to force your way into developers, but I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that trend and where you see it going. >> Yeah, that is truly the trend. Every time I walk into DevNet, the big halls at Cisco Live, it is Cisco as code. Everything about Cisco is being presented through an API. It is automation-ready, and frankly, that is the love language of the cloud. It's machines, it's the machines talking to machines in very effective ways. So it is the, I think necessary maybe not sufficient, but necessary for doing all the machine scale stuff. What's also necessary is to secure, if infrastructure is code, therefore, what security methodologies do we have today that we use to secure code? Well we have automated testing, we have threat modeling, those things actually have to be now applied to infrastructure. So then when I talk about how do you do automation securely, you do it the same way you secure your code. You test it, you threaten-model you say, "Can my adversary exhibit something here that drives the automation in a way that I didn't intend it to go?" So all of those practices apply. It's just, everything is code these days. >> TK, I've often said that security and privacy are sort of two sides of the same coin. And I want to ask you a question, and it's really to me, it's not necessarily Cisco and companies like Cisco's responsibility, but I wonder if there's a way in which you can help. And of course, there's this Netflix documentary circling around the social dilemma, I don't know if you've had a chance to see it, but that basically dramatizes the way in which companies are appropriating our data to sell us ads, and creating own little set of facts, et cetera. And that comes down to sort of how we think about privacy, and that means good from the standpoint of awareness, you may or may not care if you're a social media user. I love TikTok, I don't care. But they sort of laid out, this is pretty scary scenario with a lot of the inventors of those technologies. You have any thoughts on that, and can Cisco play a role there in terms of protecting our privacy? I mean, beyond GDPR and California Consumer Privacy Act, what do you think? >> Yeah, my humble opinion is, you fix social problems with social tools. You fix technology problems with technology tools. I think there is a social problem that needs to be rectified. We weren't built as human beings to live and interact with an environment that agrees with us all the time. (chuckles) It's just pretty wrong. So yeah that series did really kind of wake up a lot of people, it's probably every day I hear, somebody ask me if I saw it. But I do think it also, with that level of awareness, I think we overcome it or we compensate by what number one, just being aware that it's happening. Number two, how you go about solving it, I think maybe come down to an individual or even a community's solution. And what might be right for one community might be not the same for the other. So you have to be respectful in that manner. >> Yeah, so it's almost, I think if I could play back, what I heard is, is yeah, technology maybe got us into this problem, but technology alone is not going to get us out of the problem. It's not like some magic AI bot is going to solve this. It's going to be, society has to really take this on, is your premise. It's a good one. >> When I first started playing online games, I mean going back to the text-based adventure stuff like MUDs and MOOs, I did a talk at MIT one time and this old curmudgeon in the back of the room, we were talking about democracy, and we were talking about the social processes that we had modeled in our game and this and that. Then this guy just gave us the smack-down. He basically walked up to the front of the room and said, "You know all you techies, you judge efficiency by how long it takes." He says, "Democracy is completely the opposite which is, you need to sleep on it. In fact, you should be scared if somebody can decide in a minute, what is good for the community? If two weeks later, they probably have a better idea of what's good for the community. So it almost has the opposite dynamic." And that was super interesting to me. >> That's really interesting, you read the Lincoln historians and he was criticized in the day for having taken so long to make certain decisions, but ultimately when he acted, he acted with confidence. So to that point. But so what else are you working on these days that is interesting, that maybe you want to share with our audience? Anything that's really super exciting for you, are you... >> Yeah, generally speaking, I'm trying to make it a little harder for the bad guys to operate. I guess that's a general theme, making it simpler for the common person to our use tools. Again, all of these security tools no matter how fancy it is, it's not that we're losing the complexity, it's that we're moving the complexity away from the user, so that they can thrive at human scale, and we can do things at machine scale. And kind of looping those two together is sort of the magic recipe. It's not easy, but it is fun. So that's what keeps me engaged. >> I'm definitely seeing, I wonder if you see it, this sort of obviously a heightened organizational awareness, but I'm also seeing shifts in the organizational structures. It used to be a SecOps team in an Island, "Okay, it's your problem." The CSO can not report into the to the CIO because that's like the fox in the henhouse, a lot of those structures are changing it seems, this responsibilities is becoming much more ubiquitous across the organization. What are you seeing there- >> Yeah, I know, and it's so familiar to me, because I started out as a musician. So, bands are a great analogy, you play bass, I play guitar, somebody else plays drums, everybody knows their role, and you create something that's larger than the sum of all parts. And so that analogy I think is coming to, we saw it sort of with DevOps where the developer doesn't just throw their code over the wall and it's somebody else's problem, they move together as a band. And that's what I think organizations are seeing is that, why stop there? Why not include marketing? Why not include sales? Why don't we move together as a business, not just, "Here's the product, and here's the rest of the business." (chuckles) That's pretty awesome. I think we see a lot of those patterns, particularly for the high-performance businesses. >> In fact, it's interesting, you have great analogy by the way. And you actually see in that within Cisco. You're seeing sort of, and I know sometimes you guys don't like to talk about the plumbing, but I think it matters. I mean, you've got a leadership structure now, I've talked to many of them, they seem to really be more focused on how they're connecting across organizations, and it's increasingly critical in this world of silo busters, isn't it? >> Yeah, no, I mean, as you move further and further away, you can see how ridiculous it was before, it would be like acquiring a band and say, "Okay, all you guitar players, go over here. All you bass players over there. Then I'm like, "What happened to the band?" (both laughing) So that's what I'm talking about. All of those disciplines moving together, and servicing the same backlog and achieving the same successes together, is just so awesome. >> Well, I always feel better after talking to you. I remember Art Coviello used to put out this letter every year, I would read it and I'd get depressed. (chuckles) We spent all this money, now we're less secure. But when I talk to you TK, I feel much more optimistic. So I really appreciate the time you spend on theCUBE. It's awesome to have you as a guest. >> I love this session, so thanks for inviting me. >> And I miss you, hopefully next year we can get together at some of the Cisco shows or other shows, but be well and stay weird, like the sign says. >> (talks faintly) Bring my product. >> TK Keanini, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. We really appreciate it, and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante. We'll be right back with our next guest, after this short break. (upbeat music)