>> Welcome back to SuperCloud2. This is Dave Vellante, and we're here with Jack Greenfield. He's the Vice President of Enterprise Architecture and the Chief Architect for the global technology platform at Walmart. Jack, I want to thank you for coming on the program. Really appreciate your time. >> Glad to be here, Dave. Thanks for inviting me and appreciate the opportunity to chat with you. >> Yeah, it's our pleasure. Now we call what you've built a SuperCloud. That's our term, not yours, but how would you describe the Walmart Cloud Native Platform? >> So WCNP, as the acronym goes, is essentially an implementation of Kubernetes for the Walmart ecosystem. And what that means is that we've taken Kubernetes off the shelf as open source, and we have integrated it with a number of foundational services that provide other aspects of our computational environment. So Kubernetes off the shelf doesn't do everything. It does a lot. In particular the orchestration of containers, but it delegates through API a lot of key functions. So for example, secret management, traffic management, there's a need for telemetry and observability at a scale beyond what you get from raw Kubernetes. That is to say, harvesting the metrics that are coming out of Kubernetes and processing them, storing them in time series databases, dashboarding them, and so on. There's also an angle to Kubernetes that gets a lot of attention in the daily DevOps routine, that's not really part of the open source deliverable itself, and that is the DevOps sort of CICD pipeline-oriented lifecycle. And that is something else that we've added and integrated nicely. And then one more piece of this picture is that within a Kubernetes cluster, there's a function that is critical to allowing services to discover each other and integrate with each other securely and with proper configuration provided by the concept of a service mesh. So Istio, Linkerd, these are examples of service mesh technologies. And we have gone ahead and integrated actually those two. There's more than those two, but we've integrated those two with Kubernetes. So the net effect is that when a developer within Walmart is going to build an application, they don't have to think about all those other capabilities where they come from or how they're provided. Those are already present, and the way the CICD pipelines are set up, it's already sort of in the picture, and there are configuration points that they can take advantage of in the primary YAML and a couple of other pieces of config that we supply where they can tune it. But at the end of the day, it offloads an awful lot of work for them, having to stand up and operate those services, fail them over properly, and make them robust. All of that's provided for. >> Yeah, you know, developers often complain they spend too much time wrangling and doing things that aren't productive. So I wonder if you could talk about the high level business goals of the initiative in terms of the hardcore benefits. Was the real impetus to tap into best of breed cloud services? Were you trying to cut costs? Maybe gain negotiating leverage with the cloud guys? Resiliency, you know, I know was a major theme. Maybe you could give us a sense of kind of the anatomy of the decision making process that went in. >> Sure, and in the course of answering your question, I think I'm going to introduce the concept of our triplet architecture which we haven't yet touched on in the interview here. First off, just to sort of wrap up the motivation for WCNP itself which is kind of orthogonal to the triplet architecture. It can exist with or without it. Currently does exist with it, which is key, and I'll get to that in a moment. The key drivers, business drivers for WCNP were developer productivity by offloading the kinds of concerns that we've just discussed. Number two, improving resiliency, that is to say reducing opportunity for human error. One of the challenges you tend to run into in a large enterprise is what we call snowflakes, lots of gratuitously different workloads, projects, configurations to the extent that by developing and using WCNP and continuing to evolve it as we have, we end up with cookie cutter like consistency across our workloads which is super valuable when it comes to building tools or building services to automate operations that would otherwise be manual. When everything is pretty much done the same way, that becomes much simpler. Another key motivation for WCNP was the ability to abstract from the underlying cloud provider. And this is going to lead to a discussion of our triplet architecture. At the end of the day, when one works directly with an underlying cloud provider, one ends up taking a lot of dependencies on that particular cloud provider. Those dependencies can be valuable. For example, there are best of breed services like say Cloud Spanner offered by Google or say Cosmos DB offered by Microsoft that one wants to use and one is willing to take the dependency on the cloud provider to get that functionality because it's unique and valuable. On the other hand, one doesn't want to take dependencies on a cloud provider that don't add a lot of value. And with Kubernetes, we have the opportunity, and this is a large part of how Kubernetes was designed and why it is the way it is, we have the opportunity to sort of abstract from the underlying cloud provider for stateless workloads on compute. And so what this lets us do is build container-based applications that can run without change on different cloud provider infrastructure. So the same applications can run on WCNP over Azure, WCNP over GCP, or WCNP over the Walmart private cloud. And we have a private cloud. Our private cloud is OpenStack based and it gives us some significant cost advantages as well as control advantages. So to your point, in terms of business motivation, there's a key cost driver here, which is that we can use our own private cloud when it's advantageous and then use the public cloud provider capabilities when we need to. A key place with this comes into play is with elasticity. So while the private cloud is much more cost effective for us to run and use, it isn't as elastic as what the cloud providers offer, right? We don't have essentially unlimited scale. We have large scale, but the public cloud providers are elastic in the extreme which is a very powerful capability. So what we're able to do is burst, and we use this term bursting workloads into the public cloud from the private cloud to take advantage of the elasticity they offer and then fall back into the private cloud when the traffic load diminishes to the point where we don't need that elastic capability, elastic capacity at low cost. And this is a very important paradigm that I think is going to be very commonplace ultimately as the industry evolves. Private cloud is easier to operate and less expensive, and yet the public cloud provider capabilities are difficult to match. >> And the triplet, the tri is your on-prem private cloud and the two public clouds that you mentioned, is that right? >> That is correct. And we actually have an architecture in which we operate all three of those cloud platforms in close proximity with one another in three different major regions in the US. So we have east, west, and central. And in each of those regions, we have all three cloud providers. And the way it's configured, those data centers are within 10 milliseconds of each other, meaning that it's of negligible cost to interact between them. And this allows us to be fairly agnostic to where a particular workload is running. >> Does a human make that decision, Jack or is there some intelligence in the system that determines that? >> That's a really great question, Dave. And it's a great question because we're at the cusp of that transition. So currently humans make that decision. Humans choose to deploy workloads into a particular region and a particular provider within that region. That said, we're actively developing patterns and practices that will allow us to automate the placement of the workloads for a variety of criteria. For example, if in a particular region, a particular provider is heavily overloaded and is unable to provide the level of service that's expected through our SLAs, we could choose to fail workloads over from that cloud provider to a different one within the same region. But that's manual today. We do that, but people do it. Okay, we'd like to get to where that happens automatically. In the same way, we'd like to be able to automate the failovers, both for high availability and sort of the heavier disaster recovery model between, within a region between providers and even within a provider between the availability zones that are there, but also between regions for the sort of heavier disaster recovery or maintenance driven realignment of workload placement. Today, that's all manual. So we have people moving workloads from region A to region B or data center A to data center B. It's clean because of the abstraction. The workloads don't have to know or care, but there are latency considerations that come into play, and the humans have to be cognizant of those. And automating that can help ensure that we get the best performance and the best reliability. >> But you're developing the dataset to actually, I would imagine, be able to make those decisions in an automated fashion over time anyway. Is that a fair assumption? >> It is, and that's what we're actively developing right now. So if you were to look at us today, we have these nice abstractions and APIs in place, but people run that machine, if you will, moving toward a world where that machine is fully automated. >> What exactly are you abstracting? Is it sort of the deployment model or, you know, are you able to abstract, I'm just making this up like Azure functions and GCP functions so that you can sort of run them, you know, with a consistent experience. What exactly are you abstracting and how difficult was it to achieve that objective technically? >> that's a good question. What we're abstracting is the Kubernetes node construct. That is to say a cluster of Kubernetes nodes which are typically VMs, although they can run bare metal in certain contexts, is something that typically to stand up requires knowledge of the underlying cloud provider. So for example, with GCP, you would use GKE to set up a Kubernetes cluster, and in Azure, you'd use AKS. We are actually abstracting that aspect of things so that the developers standing up applications don't have to know what the underlying cluster management provider is. They don't have to know if it's GCP, AKS or our own Walmart private cloud. Now, in terms of functions like Azure functions that you've mentioned there, we haven't done that yet. That's another piece that we have sort of on our radar screen that, we'd like to get to is serverless approach, and the Knative work from Google and the Azure functions, those are things that we see good opportunity to use for a whole variety of use cases. But right now we're not doing much with that. We're strictly container based right now, and we do have some VMs that are running in sort of more of a traditional model. So our stateful workloads are primarily VM based, but for serverless, that's an opportunity for us to take some of these stateless workloads and turn them into cloud functions. >> Well, and that's another cost lever that you can pull down the road that's going to drop right to the bottom line. Do you see a day or maybe you're doing it today, but I'd be surprised, but where you build applications that actually span multiple clouds or is there, in your view, always going to be a direct one-to-one mapping between where an application runs and the specific cloud platform? >> That's a really great question. Well, yes and no. So today, application development teams choose a cloud provider to deploy to and a location to deploy to, and they have to get involved in moving an application like we talked about today. That said, the bursting capability that I mentioned previously is something that is a step in the direction of automatic migration. That is to say we're migrating workload to different locations automatically. Currently, the prototypes we've been developing and that we think are going to eventually make their way into production are leveraging Istio to assess the load incoming on a particular cluster and start shedding that load into a different location. Right now, the configuration of that is still manual, but there's another opportunity for automation there. And I think a key piece of this is that down the road, well, that's a, sort of a small step in the direction of an application being multi provider. We expect to see really an abstraction of the fact that there is a triplet even. So the workloads are moving around according to whatever the control plane decides is necessary based on a whole variety of inputs. And at that point, you will have true multi-cloud applications, applications that are distributed across the different providers and in a way that application developers don't have to think about. >> So Walmart's been a leader, Jack, in using data for competitive advantages for decades. It's kind of been a poster child for that. You've got a mountain of IP in the form of data, tools, applications best practices that until the cloud came out was all On Prem. But I'm really interested in this idea of building a Walmart ecosystem, which obviously you have. Do you see a day or maybe you're even doing it today where you take what we call the Walmart SuperCloud, WCNP in your words, and point or turn that toward an external world or your ecosystem, you know, supporting those partners or customers that could drive new revenue streams, you know directly from the platform? >> Great questions, Dave. So there's really two things to say here. The first is that with respect to data, our data workloads are primarily VM basis. I've mentioned before some VMware, some straight open stack. But the key here is that WCNP and Kubernetes are very powerful for stateless workloads, but for stateful workloads tend to be still climbing a bit of a growth curve in the industry. So our data workloads are not primarily based on WCNP. They're VM based. Now that said, there is opportunity to make some progress there, and we are looking at ways to move things into containers that are currently running in VMs which are stateful. The other question you asked is related to how we expose data to third parties and also functionality. Right now we do have in-house, for our own use, a very robust data architecture, and we have followed the sort of domain-oriented data architecture guidance from Martin Fowler. And we have data lakes in which we collect data from all the transactional systems and which we can then use and do use to build models which are then used in our applications. But right now we're not exposing the data directly to customers as a product. That's an interesting direction that's been talked about and may happen at some point, but right now that's internal. What we are exposing to customers is applications. So we're offering our global integrated fulfillment capabilities, our order picking and curbside pickup capabilities, and our cloud powered checkout capabilities to third parties. And this means we're standing up our own internal applications as externally facing SaaS applications which can serve our partners' customers. >> Yeah, of course, Martin Fowler really first introduced to the world Zhamak Dehghani's data mesh concept and this whole idea of data products and domain oriented thinking. Zhamak Dehghani, by the way, is a speaker at our event as well. Last question I had is edge, and how you think about the edge? You know, the stores are an edge. Are you putting resources there that sort of mirror this this triplet model? Or is it better to consolidate things in the cloud? I know there are trade-offs in terms of latency. How are you thinking about that? >> All really good questions. It's a challenging area as you can imagine because edges are subject to disconnection, right? Or reduced connection. So we do place the same architecture at the edge. So WCNP runs at the edge, and an application that's designed to run at WCNP can run at the edge. That said, there are a number of very specific considerations that come up when running at the edge, such as the possibility of disconnection or degraded connectivity. And so one of the challenges we have faced and have grappled with and done a good job of I think is dealing with the fact that applications go offline and come back online and have to reconnect and resynchronize, the sort of online offline capability is something that can be quite challenging. And we have a couple of application architectures that sort of form the two core sets of patterns that we use. One is an offline/online synchronization architecture where we discover that we've come back online, and we understand the differences between the online dataset and the offline dataset and how they have to be reconciled. The other is a message-based architecture. And here in our health and wellness domain, we've developed applications that are queue based. So they're essentially business processes that consist of multiple steps where each step has its own queue. And what that allows us to do is devote whatever bandwidth we do have to those pieces of the process that are most latency sensitive and allow the queue lengths to increase in parts of the process that are not latency sensitive, knowing that they will eventually catch up when the bandwidth is restored. And to put that in a little bit of context, we have fiber lengths to all of our locations, and we have I'll just use a round number, 10-ish thousand locations. It's larger than that, but that's the ballpark, and we have fiber to all of them, but when the fiber is disconnected, When the disconnection happens, we're able to fall back to 5G and to Starlink. Starlink is preferred. It's a higher bandwidth. 5G if that fails. But in each of those cases, the bandwidth drops significantly. And so the applications have to be intelligent about throttling back the traffic that isn't essential, so that it can push the essential traffic in those lower bandwidth scenarios. >> So much technology to support this amazing business which started in the early 1960s. Jack, unfortunately, we're out of time. I would love to have you back or some members of your team and drill into how you're using open source, but really thank you so much for explaining the approach that you've taken and participating in SuperCloud2. >> You're very welcome, Dave, and we're happy to come back and talk about other aspects of what we do. For example, we could talk more about the data lakes and the data mesh that we have in place. We could talk more about the directions we might go with serverless. So please look us up again. Happy to chat. >> I'm going to take you up on that, Jack. All right. This is Dave Vellante for John Furrier and the Cube community. Keep it right there for more action from SuperCloud2. (upbeat music)

>> Welcome back to SuperCloud2. This is Dave Vellante, and we're here with Jack Greenfield. He's the Vice President of Enterprise Architecture and the Chief Architect for the global technology platform at Walmart. Jack, I want to thank you for coming on the program. Really appreciate your time. >> Glad to be here, Dave. Thanks for inviting me and appreciate the opportunity to chat with you. >> Yeah, it's our pleasure. Now we call what you've built a SuperCloud. That's our term, not yours, but how would you describe the Walmart Cloud Native Platform? >> So WCNP, as the acronym goes, is essentially an implementation of Kubernetes for the Walmart ecosystem. And what that means is that we've taken Kubernetes off the shelf as open source, and we have integrated it with a number of foundational services that provide other aspects of our computational environment. So Kubernetes off the shelf doesn't do everything. It does a lot. In particular the orchestration of containers, but it delegates through API a lot of key functions. So for example, secret management, traffic management, there's a need for telemetry and observability at a scale beyond what you get from raw Kubernetes. That is to say, harvesting the metrics that are coming out of Kubernetes and processing them, storing them in time series databases, dashboarding them, and so on. There's also an angle to Kubernetes that gets a lot of attention in the daily DevOps routine, that's not really part of the open source deliverable itself, and that is the DevOps sort of CICD pipeline-oriented lifecycle. And that is something else that we've added and integrated nicely. And then one more piece of this picture is that within a Kubernetes cluster, there's a function that is critical to allowing services to discover each other and integrate with each other securely and with proper configuration provided by the concept of a service mesh. So Istio, Linkerd, these are examples of service mesh technologies. And we have gone ahead and integrated actually those two. There's more than those two, but we've integrated those two with Kubernetes. So the net effect is that when a developer within Walmart is going to build an application, they don't have to think about all those other capabilities where they come from or how they're provided. Those are already present, and the way the CICD pipelines are set up, it's already sort of in the picture, and there are configuration points that they can take advantage of in the primary YAML and a couple of other pieces of config that we supply where they can tune it. But at the end of the day, it offloads an awful lot of work for them, having to stand up and operate those services, fail them over properly, and make them robust. All of that's provided for. >> Yeah, you know, developers often complain they spend too much time wrangling and doing things that aren't productive. So I wonder if you could talk about the high level business goals of the initiative in terms of the hardcore benefits. Was the real impetus to tap into best of breed cloud services? Were you trying to cut costs? Maybe gain negotiating leverage with the cloud guys? Resiliency, you know, I know was a major theme. Maybe you could give us a sense of kind of the anatomy of the decision making process that went in. >> Sure, and in the course of answering your question, I think I'm going to introduce the concept of our triplet architecture which we haven't yet touched on in the interview here. First off, just to sort of wrap up the motivation for WCNP itself which is kind of orthogonal to the triplet architecture. It can exist with or without it. Currently does exist with it, which is key, and I'll get to that in a moment. The key drivers, business drivers for WCNP were developer productivity by offloading the kinds of concerns that we've just discussed. Number two, improving resiliency, that is to say reducing opportunity for human error. One of the challenges you tend to run into in a large enterprise is what we call snowflakes, lots of gratuitously different workloads, projects, configurations to the extent that by developing and using WCNP and continuing to evolve it as we have, we end up with cookie cutter like consistency across our workloads which is super valuable when it comes to building tools or building services to automate operations that would otherwise be manual. When everything is pretty much done the same way, that becomes much simpler. Another key motivation for WCNP was the ability to abstract from the underlying cloud provider. And this is going to lead to a discussion of our triplet architecture. At the end of the day, when one works directly with an underlying cloud provider, one ends up taking a lot of dependencies on that particular cloud provider. Those dependencies can be valuable. For example, there are best of breed services like say Cloud Spanner offered by Google or say Cosmos DB offered by Microsoft that one wants to use and one is willing to take the dependency on the cloud provider to get that functionality because it's unique and valuable. On the other hand, one doesn't want to take dependencies on a cloud provider that don't add a lot of value. And with Kubernetes, we have the opportunity, and this is a large part of how Kubernetes was designed and why it is the way it is, we have the opportunity to sort of abstract from the underlying cloud provider for stateless workloads on compute. And so what this lets us do is build container-based applications that can run without change on different cloud provider infrastructure. So the same applications can run on WCNP over Azure, WCNP over GCP, or WCNP over the Walmart private cloud. And we have a private cloud. Our private cloud is OpenStack based and it gives us some significant cost advantages as well as control advantages. So to your point, in terms of business motivation, there's a key cost driver here, which is that we can use our own private cloud when it's advantageous and then use the public cloud provider capabilities when we need to. A key place with this comes into play is with elasticity. So while the private cloud is much more cost effective for us to run and use, it isn't as elastic as what the cloud providers offer, right? We don't have essentially unlimited scale. We have large scale, but the public cloud providers are elastic in the extreme which is a very powerful capability. So what we're able to do is burst, and we use this term bursting workloads into the public cloud from the private cloud to take advantage of the elasticity they offer and then fall back into the private cloud when the traffic load diminishes to the point where we don't need that elastic capability, elastic capacity at low cost. And this is a very important paradigm that I think is going to be very commonplace ultimately as the industry evolves. Private cloud is easier to operate and less expensive, and yet the public cloud provider capabilities are difficult to match. >> And the triplet, the tri is your on-prem private cloud and the two public clouds that you mentioned, is that right? >> That is correct. And we actually have an architecture in which we operate all three of those cloud platforms in close proximity with one another in three different major regions in the US. So we have east, west, and central. And in each of those regions, we have all three cloud providers. And the way it's configured, those data centers are within 10 milliseconds of each other, meaning that it's of negligible cost to interact between them. And this allows us to be fairly agnostic to where a particular workload is running. >> Does a human make that decision, Jack or is there some intelligence in the system that determines that? >> That's a really great question, Dave. And it's a great question because we're at the cusp of that transition. So currently humans make that decision. Humans choose to deploy workloads into a particular region and a particular provider within that region. That said, we're actively developing patterns and practices that will allow us to automate the placement of the workloads for a variety of criteria. For example, if in a particular region, a particular provider is heavily overloaded and is unable to provide the level of service that's expected through our SLAs, we could choose to fail workloads over from that cloud provider to a different one within the same region. But that's manual today. We do that, but people do it. Okay, we'd like to get to where that happens automatically. In the same way, we'd like to be able to automate the failovers, both for high availability and sort of the heavier disaster recovery model between, within a region between providers and even within a provider between the availability zones that are there, but also between regions for the sort of heavier disaster recovery or maintenance driven realignment of workload placement. Today, that's all manual. So we have people moving workloads from region A to region B or data center A to data center B. It's clean because of the abstraction. The workloads don't have to know or care, but there are latency considerations that come into play, and the humans have to be cognizant of those. And automating that can help ensure that we get the best performance and the best reliability. >> But you're developing the dataset to actually, I would imagine, be able to make those decisions in an automated fashion over time anyway. Is that a fair assumption? >> It is, and that's what we're actively developing right now. So if you were to look at us today, we have these nice abstractions and APIs in place, but people run that machine, if you will, moving toward a world where that machine is fully automated. >> What exactly are you abstracting? Is it sort of the deployment model or, you know, are you able to abstract, I'm just making this up like Azure functions and GCP functions so that you can sort of run them, you know, with a consistent experience. What exactly are you abstracting and how difficult was it to achieve that objective technically? >> that's a good question. What we're abstracting is the Kubernetes node construct. That is to say a cluster of Kubernetes nodes which are typically VMs, although they can run bare metal in certain contexts, is something that typically to stand up requires knowledge of the underlying cloud provider. So for example, with GCP, you would use GKE to set up a Kubernetes cluster, and in Azure, you'd use AKS. We are actually abstracting that aspect of things so that the developers standing up applications don't have to know what the underlying cluster management provider is. They don't have to know if it's GCP, AKS or our own Walmart private cloud. Now, in terms of functions like Azure functions that you've mentioned there, we haven't done that yet. That's another piece that we have sort of on our radar screen that, we'd like to get to is serverless approach, and the Knative work from Google and the Azure functions, those are things that we see good opportunity to use for a whole variety of use cases. But right now we're not doing much with that. We're strictly container based right now, and we do have some VMs that are running in sort of more of a traditional model. So our stateful workloads are primarily VM based, but for serverless, that's an opportunity for us to take some of these stateless workloads and turn them into cloud functions. >> Well, and that's another cost lever that you can pull down the road that's going to drop right to the bottom line. Do you see a day or maybe you're doing it today, but I'd be surprised, but where you build applications that actually span multiple clouds or is there, in your view, always going to be a direct one-to-one mapping between where an application runs and the specific cloud platform? >> That's a really great question. Well, yes and no. So today, application development teams choose a cloud provider to deploy to and a location to deploy to, and they have to get involved in moving an application like we talked about today. That said, the bursting capability that I mentioned previously is something that is a step in the direction of automatic migration. That is to say we're migrating workload to different locations automatically. Currently, the prototypes we've been developing and that we think are going to eventually make their way into production are leveraging Istio to assess the load incoming on a particular cluster and start shedding that load into a different location. Right now, the configuration of that is still manual, but there's another opportunity for automation there. And I think a key piece of this is that down the road, well, that's a, sort of a small step in the direction of an application being multi provider. We expect to see really an abstraction of the fact that there is a triplet even. So the workloads are moving around according to whatever the control plane decides is necessary based on a whole variety of inputs. And at that point, you will have true multi-cloud applications, applications that are distributed across the different providers and in a way that application developers don't have to think about. >> So Walmart's been a leader, Jack, in using data for competitive advantages for decades. It's kind of been a poster child for that. You've got a mountain of IP in the form of data, tools, applications best practices that until the cloud came out was all On Prem. But I'm really interested in this idea of building a Walmart ecosystem, which obviously you have. Do you see a day or maybe you're even doing it today where you take what we call the Walmart SuperCloud, WCNP in your words, and point or turn that toward an external world or your ecosystem, you know, supporting those partners or customers that could drive new revenue streams, you know directly from the platform? >> Great question, Steve. So there's really two things to say here. The first is that with respect to data, our data workloads are primarily VM basis. I've mentioned before some VMware, some straight open stack. But the key here is that WCNP and Kubernetes are very powerful for stateless workloads, but for stateful workloads tend to be still climbing a bit of a growth curve in the industry. So our data workloads are not primarily based on WCNP. They're VM based. Now that said, there is opportunity to make some progress there, and we are looking at ways to move things into containers that are currently running in VMs which are stateful. The other question you asked is related to how we expose data to third parties and also functionality. Right now we do have in-house, for our own use, a very robust data architecture, and we have followed the sort of domain-oriented data architecture guidance from Martin Fowler. And we have data lakes in which we collect data from all the transactional systems and which we can then use and do use to build models which are then used in our applications. But right now we're not exposing the data directly to customers as a product. That's an interesting direction that's been talked about and may happen at some point, but right now that's internal. What we are exposing to customers is applications. So we're offering our global integrated fulfillment capabilities, our order picking and curbside pickup capabilities, and our cloud powered checkout capabilities to third parties. And this means we're standing up our own internal applications as externally facing SaaS applications which can serve our partners' customers. >> Yeah, of course, Martin Fowler really first introduced to the world Zhamak Dehghani's data mesh concept and this whole idea of data products and domain oriented thinking. Zhamak Dehghani, by the way, is a speaker at our event as well. Last question I had is edge, and how you think about the edge? You know, the stores are an edge. Are you putting resources there that sort of mirror this this triplet model? Or is it better to consolidate things in the cloud? I know there are trade-offs in terms of latency. How are you thinking about that? >> All really good questions. It's a challenging area as you can imagine because edges are subject to disconnection, right? Or reduced connection. So we do place the same architecture at the edge. So WCNP runs at the edge, and an application that's designed to run at WCNP can run at the edge. That said, there are a number of very specific considerations that come up when running at the edge, such as the possibility of disconnection or degraded connectivity. And so one of the challenges we have faced and have grappled with and done a good job of I think is dealing with the fact that applications go offline and come back online and have to reconnect and resynchronize, the sort of online offline capability is something that can be quite challenging. And we have a couple of application architectures that sort of form the two core sets of patterns that we use. One is an offline/online synchronization architecture where we discover that we've come back online, and we understand the differences between the online dataset and the offline dataset and how they have to be reconciled. The other is a message-based architecture. And here in our health and wellness domain, we've developed applications that are queue based. So they're essentially business processes that consist of multiple steps where each step has its own queue. And what that allows us to do is devote whatever bandwidth we do have to those pieces of the process that are most latency sensitive and allow the queue lengths to increase in parts of the process that are not latency sensitive, knowing that they will eventually catch up when the bandwidth is restored. And to put that in a little bit of context, we have fiber lengths to all of our locations, and we have I'll just use a round number, 10-ish thousand locations. It's larger than that, but that's the ballpark, and we have fiber to all of them, but when the fiber is disconnected, and it does get disconnected on a regular basis. In fact, I forget the exact number, but some several dozen locations get disconnected daily just by virtue of the fact that there's construction going on and things are happening in the real world. When the disconnection happens, we're able to fall back to 5G and to Starlink. Starlink is preferred. It's a higher bandwidth. 5G if that fails. But in each of those cases, the bandwidth drops significantly. And so the applications have to be intelligent about throttling back the traffic that isn't essential, so that it can push the essential traffic in those lower bandwidth scenarios. >> So much technology to support this amazing business which started in the early 1960s. Jack, unfortunately, we're out of time. I would love to have you back or some members of your team and drill into how you're using open source, but really thank you so much for explaining the approach that you've taken and participating in SuperCloud2. >> You're very welcome, Dave, and we're happy to come back and talk about other aspects of what we do. For example, we could talk more about the data lakes and the data mesh that we have in place. We could talk more about the directions we might go with serverless. So please look us up again. Happy to chat. >> I'm going to take you up on that, Jack. All right. This is Dave Vellante for John Furrier and the Cube community. Keep it right there for more action from SuperCloud2. (upbeat music)

>>Hello everyone and welcome back to The Cube's Continuing coverage of AWS Reinvent. My name is Savannah Peterson and I am absolutely thrilled for this segment. We are joined by leaders at Cisco App Dynamics, as well as Royal Caribbean. The two have been working together for over five years, leveraging full stack observability. We're gonna dig in, but first of all, please welcome Alice from Royal Caribbean and Greg from Cisco App, app Dynamics to the show. Hey friends. >>Hi. How are you doing? >>I'm excited, clearly. How are you doing, Greg? >>I'm doing fantastic. Thanks for having me on the show today. >>Hey, it's our, it is absolutely our pleasure. Alice, I have to start with you. I don't think there are too many industries that have gotten as much coverage as cruising has over the last couple of years. You've been working with Royal Caribbean for over a decade, so you've seen it through the stormy seas of the pandemic, if you will. What has the last few years and the last few months been like for you? >>You know, it's, it's really been a wild ride. To your point, we were sailing high and then I don't think any other industry experience what we did in Covid, that you walked in one day and then that day the whole industry shut down. So it was a, it was a big challenge for us. And then as soon as we shut down and we weathered the storm with Covid, then we have what we called our healthy and return to service. So as quickly as it stopped, we had to start sailing again. So it's, it's really been a challenge, but we're happy to be back on our feet and heading in the right direction now. >>I, I really hope we can continue the sailing metaphors throughout the course of this interview. And you, you nailed that for a segment. Alice, I'm, I'm, I'm so, I'm so here for it. I, I, I wanna talk about how you've worked together, but I wanna give Greg a second to chime in here. So Greg, you're the executive CTO at Cisco App Dynamics. How, how have you and the team, whether the last two and a half years? >>Well, you, you know, it's interesting, the, the pandemic really brought together an interesting conundrum, right? So on, on one hand, you had, you know, the, the, the consumers, the end users that became very reliant on digital services. They had a function in a way that was very performing, right? So, 84% of the respondents that we had come back through a report called the App Attention Index, came back and said that digital services were, were really instrumental for them to, to get back to some level of normalcy. But the interesting part that came about that is that out of those respondents, 60% of them blame the brand if the, if the application did not work the way they expected it. So they didn't really care about the, it's in the back end, right? So when you look at, yeah, you look at the shift in the IT department, the IT department had to go out and, and quickly innovate, quickly start to introduce new services, which ultimately brought together a, a sprawl in their technology stack. So when you're adding to it, you're not taking things away, you're continuously growing. So finding that that, that the problems or the, the root cause of an application issue became more difficult. So that's where, you know, from an app, Cisco AppDynamics perspective, you know, we're one of the leading observability and app application performance monitoring tools. So we help customers like Ro Caribbean to be able to zero in on root cause and ensure that their end users have that best experience. It's, >>It's, it's, I I'm smiling as someone who was a, a former waitress and I can remember the amount of times I was scolded for something that happened that was far out of my control and the complex layers of the kitchen. And I think that, that anyone who's, who's had a, a poor customer experience while interacting with a brand may or may not intentional, I think it's actually sometimes very unintentional to your point, get frustrated with said brand. I can imagine that is an experience and a priority that you have at Royal Caribbean. Alice, how, how has Full Stack Observability played a role in your, in your team's ability to, to serve the customers and your, and keep your community engaged during this, this very kind of wobbly time? >>Yeah, you know, we have, have really worked hard to improve and remove friction from our guest vacation. And we wanna keep them on vacation and having a great time. You know, we say we don't really sell a cruise. We sell an experience. So we use App AppDynamics to monitor those key applications that our guests are interacting with to ensure that they're having that experience that we expect, you know, we've learned that just because a system or a server says, Hey, I'm up 99% of the time, that doesn't mean that my guests are experiencing that same type of stability, you know? So once again, we really worked well with App Dynamics. They've partnered with us to ensure that, you know, our guests are getting that vacation experience they're looking for. >>Do you think, just a follow up there, do you think that you would have advanced in the ways that you have working with Cisco App Dynamics and across functions over the last few years without this crunch, was necessity the mother of invention for you to any degree? >>You know, I don't, I don't think that the Crunch brought it on cuz we, like I said, we started this journey back in 2017 and we're not unlike a lot of companies where we're on this maturity ride where we wanna go from being reactive, where our guests are telling us something is broken to being preventive. Definitely, you know, COVID played into this because I think we learned to do less, you know, more with less. So, you know, we, you know, it's very hard in the cruise industry. We did take a hit, but we were able to use the app dynamics tools to ensure that our systems were running with having less people also watching those systems. So less eyes on glass, more automation, >>And that's a more, with more, more stability, more credibility, and more transparency is definitely something that we're all looking forward. And, and it's nice to see that implemented, especially at scale when you're dealing with so many customers from all over the world trying to access your service and, and wanting that personalized experience. Greg, what does it feel like for you as a leader to hear someone like Alice say how powerful your tool has been in ensuring that customer experience? >>Yeah, that's, you know, it's absolutely fantastic and especially, you know, Alice is absolutely right. You know, the, the, the cruise industry was really, had a very unique challenge in front of them, and I, I really applaud the folks at Royal Caribbean for stepping up to make sure that when the pandemic eased, so to speak, that they, that the experience to the customer was actually even better, right? So when we were able to work and partner together to make sure that, you know, the, the, the user experience is topnotch, the availability is there, the, the, the, the resiliency of their platform is there. So by, by working with customers like Royal CRI and is really one of the, the, the shining stars that we can talk about that really help make a big difference in, you know, that post pandemic era to be able to really do what's right for the customer. >>How often are you engaging with customers like Alice as a team? How big is that feedback in your product roadmap? >>Oh, personally, I, I'm, I'm engaged with customers on a daily basis and I see it fr across the map from many different industries. And, you know, a lot of folks had different challenges, but the, the ultimate commonality that I've seen across, you know, multiple industries is that, you know, when you, when we're in that pandemic state, digital services were the only way that they, their customers were interacting with, with them. So, you know, when you, when you're looking at a, at a bank or you're looking at a, you know, different types of travel agencies and organizations that, you know, like rural Caribbean as well, that, that really had that opportunity to, to focus on what's the most valuable thing to them, which is user experience. It's a very, very common common trend that we saw. And, you know, you see an expedited path of, of, of digital transformation happen. And really that's where we partner with, you know, customers like Royal Caribbean and, and many others across different industries to make sure that that, that the, the business outcomes were being driven towards the, the proper direction. As well as that, you know, the, the user experience, and I don't think I can emphasize user experience as being so critically important anymore than I've already have, but it's really the, one of the most valuable currencies most organizations have. >>I, one of my favorite lines is, is community is your first defensible asset. And you know, I, you can, you can talk about user experience as much as you want on here. At the end of the day, if people aren't having a positive interaction with your brand or your product, it's probably not going to last super long unless it's legacy. And we won't have to go down that rabbit hole today, >>Especially if I can add there's a lot of competition there. Course, right? There's a lot of competition out there. So if your applications do not perform, or your digital services do not perform, the end user has the quick ability to just quickly delete and move on. And, and the same thing with, with what Alice sees in the, in the cruise industry, you know, you have an opportunity to rise to the top and I, I really applaud them for taking advantage of that, that opportunity. Community. >>Community. Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm here for both of you cheering each other on certainly the, the water level rises together. That's >>Right. Alice, >>What sort of, what sort of challenges are you taking on currently that you're able to disclose? What, what sort of leaps do you think, or doesn't have to be leaps, but what, what kind of experience are you hoping to continue to enhance for Royal Caribbean customers? >>So I think, you know, one of our big challenges that we've, you know, we've announced that we do have a relationship with starlink, so that's going to improve our satellite connectivity, and it really is a game changer for our industry. It's very exciting and, and, but it puts the, it puts the user back in the forefront once again. You know, right now, you know, with our current connectivity, it's all about managing that bandwidth. You know, we're hoping to go to that state where bandwidth isn't at a high cost, so now we're gonna be even able to watch our user interaction more from ship to shore, you know, and you're, and you're, we're maybe moving to that area where we're thinking cloud first from a shift. If you think about it, we've got 50 plus data centers floating around the world, so that connectivity is key. Now we're opening up that bandwidth now I need to see how that, how the transactions are performing as we come off ship. You know, with that, once again, that cloud first mentality, it's a super exciting time for us. And I really see, you know, AppD is gonna play a role in that. >>I, I I, I love that visual just for a second of 50 data centers with also surrounded by people having a very wonderful time on board. What a, what a nice spot. I, I can't say that every data center I've ever been to is, is glamorous, fun or sexy as being on a Royal Caribbean ship. However, I, I hope that we move perhaps in that direction. We were just at super computing a few weeks ago and it was great to see all the hardware there. So you never know. What role do you see yourself in the team and, and Cisco app Dynamics playing in that future for companies like Royal Caribbean, Greg? >>You know, it's really, it's really staying right lockstep with our customers as they move through that digital transformation efforts. The key piece is that we look at it from that full stack view. So we offer full stack observability, which, you know, if you look at the challenges that we want to go after is traditional IT departments were historically siloed pretty significantly between, you know, network and infrastructure security app dev. So ensuring that we can get our customers to, to be able to have that common view that shows what's the real important pieces across all domains. So when they start moving down the path of digital transformation, that's an opportunity to also revamp how their processes are that people interact and the technology that they use to be able to deliver the proper business outcomes. So we talk a lot with our customers around full stack observability, but the key part is business context. >>So if you have a big effort for digital transformation, you're starting to add new services to it, how do you know if it's actually impacting the business in a positive or negative way? So by us implementing the, the business context to ensure that you understand the investments being made that you can show to your business leaders is showing an uptick and the business outcomes you're, you're going after, it's really, really about a strong partnership with our customers, but also ensuring that their business is being positively impacted by our technology to be able to help them really align the teams and be able to have the right desired outcomes. >>I love that Greg and I love that customer first. That community first attitude, it's something that you both share. Final question for the two of you, and I'm gonna start with you, Alice, since I suspect you've probably been on more cruises than Greg and I combined, though I could be making a wild assumption. Where are you cruising to next? >>You know, I just got off the cruise, so next up I wanna revisit the Galapagos. I think the Galapagos is the best place to go, and if you haven't done it, that's absolutely where you should go. >>Oh, it's a beautiful trip. Greg, have you ever done the Galapagos? Is that gonna be your next Royal Caribbean cruise? >>I have never done the Galapagos, but I may just have made it to my list. >>Fantastic. Well, I second Alice's endorsement on that. I, I had the pleasure of going about a decade ago. Very magical place that teaches you a lot about nature, much like the two of you have taught us very extensively about full stack absorbability, how it applies to user experience, customer experience, and the ocean that I am currently staring at here in Pacifica, California. Alice, thank you so much for joining us from Miami Greg to you in Colorado. I hope that you both continue to work in harmony together and that we can all see each other on the friendly sees soon. Thank you all for tuning in to our AWS reinvent coverage. This is the cube. My name's Savannah Peterson, and we look forward to seeing you for our next segment.

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Coupa Inspire 2022. We are in Las Vegas at the beautiful Cosmopolitan hotel. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. Brian McKillips joins me next, a managing director at Accenture. Brian, it's great to have you on the program. >> Thanks for having me, I'm glad to be here. >> So you have an interesting, you lead a lot of stuff at Accenture and I want to read this off, so I get it right. You lead the intelligent platform services strategy and the industry and functions platform group. Talk to me about those responsibilities. >> Yeah, so the intelligent platform services is the place in the business where we have kind of our large software partners, SAP, Oracle, Microsoft, Workday, Salesforce and Adobe. And we kind of think of ourselves as kind of the engine that powers industry and functional solutions, right? And the way Accenture's gone to market over the last couple of years has been kind of bringing together our breadth of experience all the way from strategy, all the way through operations and these big technology transformations are at the core of that. So that's what we do in intelligent platform services. And we recently launched this what we call the industry and functions platforms group because we realized there's a lot of strategic partners that are critical for us to be have a strong practice around, COUPA being one of them, you know in the supply chain and sourcing and procurement space so that we could create a home to be able to deliver these solutions globally and at scale. So I lead both kind of the strategy across all of IPS and then the new industry and functions platform group. >> Got it. All right. So you're here to talk to me about composable technology. First of all, define that for the audience so they understand what you're talking about. >> Yeah, you bet. So, you know, at Accenture, we're talking a lot about this is the age of compressed transformation, meaning, you know, change is only going to speed up and the need to change and so our clients are really struggling with not only kind of moving fast but that pressure around having to change as dynamics around the world change. So in the age of compressed transformation, we were really talking about how our clients should be kind of reorienting the way they think about their tech stack. And because, you know, historically a lot of us grew up in kind of monolithic implementations with, you know one software provider. But today it's really about composing technology to create new industry, new ways to solve industry problems, functional processes, customer experiences, right? And so composable technology we think about it in three parts. One is a cloud foundation that is, you know, the hyperscalers are a critical part of that. Secondly, our digital core and these are the kind of the historic software packages at the center of a lot of the industry and functional business processes. So you think about SAP and Oracle and Salesforce and things like that. But then around that digital core you have composable elements to be able to plug in. And that could be things like other software packages but it's also kind of industry IP or you know, edge devices, you know think IOT, think smart appliances, think and when you put, pull all those things together you need to be able to not only configure it once but configure and reconfigure as the dynamics of the marketplace change. >> So composable technology isn't necessarily new but has the pandemic been an accelerator of some of the things that you're seeing now in terms of why it's important, what's different about it now as being a foundation for competitive differentiation? >> Yeah, for sure. And it's, you know, I, anybody who's in technology say, you know, you tell them about this idea, they're like, well this isn't new, we've had service oriented architectures for 20 years. >> Right. >> You know, we've been talking about integrating things forever, but the you know, much like we all five to seven years ago we knew that we'd be using our phones to pay for pretty much everything but the tech hadn't caught up, right. Not every restaurant or store that you went to had the point of sale set up, right. So we all kind of knew that was coming. And the same thing has kind of happened around this idea of about composable technology and the three things that are new are one is that the cloud foundation is here, right. >> Yes. >> Where, you know, you now have not only kind of hyperscale high speed compute in at the core you actually have at the edge as well. And the same thing with high speed network, you know you have Starlink, you have 5G rolling out. So you have that cloud foundation that really wasn't there before. The second thing that's happening is the posture of a lot of the ecosystem, major ecosystem players has changed, right. And this started, you know when Satya Nadella took over Microsoft where Microsoft was very much a kind of a closed environment. >> Right. >> Where Satya under his leadership has really kind of changed the posture of being able to integrate into that. And we've seen that really pretty much across the entire landscape. And then lastly, it's become, you know, cheaper and, you know, quicker to be able to integrate with platforms like MuleSoft and others where there's kind of full scale integration platforms. So those are, those are the kind of the things that are new that allows for composable technology to be here in the real world. >> So it's something that's tangible, it's real organizations need to be on this bandwagon I imagine or they're going to be left behind. Gartner had some interesting stats that your team sent over and they were talking about these stats that were very compelling in terms of a seismic shift which always, you hear seismic living in California I think earthquakes, but something substantial. And they said, this seismic shift is going to happen by 2023. And I thought, hang on, that's less than a year away. >> Yeah. >> And they talked about by 2023, organizations that have adopted an intelligent composable approach will outpace competition 80% in the speed of new feature implementation. So if an organization hasn't started on that now is it too late? >> I would say not necessarily too late but they need to look for ways to change their disposition, right. And one of the ways that we've been helping clients do this is through pre-integrated solutions, right. So you know, in the past, the motion would be we would work with a client, they would work with our kind of strategists and consultants and say, what does the the future of supply chain look like for example. And if the client liked it, they would say, okay, I love it, what do I do next? Right. Then there would be another consulting engagement, another consulting engagement and then there would be a blueprint and architecture and at some point there was an implementation and a run. We've actually said we're investing heavily with our ecosystem partners to be able to pre-integrate solutions. So when that supply chain strategist says this is what the post COVID supply chain should look like and the client says, I love it what do I do next, that strategist can turn around and say, well, we've got a pre-integrated solution with SAP at the core sitting on a Microsoft Azure stack integrated with Coupa, wrapped with AI and machine learning and we can drop that and configure it for an environment. So that's how we're working with clients who are in that position that really need to kind of change their disposition is to bring these pre-integrated solutions and drop them in. >> Where are your conversations at the C- Suite level? Because this is, I hear many things in what you just said. Part of it is change management, which is very challenging. There's, people are very resistant to that. >> Brian: Yeah. >> One of the things that we've learned in the last two years is if it's going to come it's going to come but where are your conversations within that executive suite in terms of getting buy-in and going this is the direction we have to go in. >> Brian: Yeah. >> Because our business needs to be not just survive but thrive. >> Yeah. Yeah. These are, I mean, there are certainly of course in kind of traditional channels of tech whether it's, you know, the CIO or the CTO, but increasingly we're seeing this is a CEO discussion and, you know, our CEO Julie Sweet, is very, very market pacing and is having top to top conversations talking about compressed transformation, talking about composable technology because it's no longer just a, you know, a back office function as you know, right. I mean, this is really core to how companies you know, are, change their business models, make money, right. And it's a constant evolution. And that's why we talk about that kind of configuring and reconfiguring, it's not just coming in, implementing once, run it for five years and then when it's time to upgrade, we come back. >> No. >> We really want to be the partner with our clients to basically move in and, you know, across the patch whether it's specific industry processes, specific functional processes, specific customer experiences, we want to be the partner that is constantly tuning and configuring and reconfiguring and composing these solutions from across the ecosystem. >> And helping those businesses in any industry evolve as you talked about this compressed timeline, compressed transformation, such an interesting way of describing it but it's really true, it's what we've been living the last couple of years. >> Brian: Yeah. And so I want to get into Accenture's technology vision. You touched on this a little bit but there was some stats that your team provided that I thought were really, really interesting, a survey that Accenture did, 77% of executives, and we were just talking about the C-suite, state that their tech architecture is becoming critical to the overall success of the organization. So that awareness is there for sure en masse. Another thing that, stat that was interesting was 90% of business and IT execs agree that to be agile we always talk about agility, right, be resilient, organizations need to fast forward this digital transformation at the core. There's that compressed transformation. >> Brian: Yeah. >> Those are very high numbers. >> Brian: Yeah. >> In terms of where organizations say we see where we need to be. What's the vision at Accenture to help organizations get there fast? >> Yeah. Well, I think it's, you know, the thing that came to mind as you were talking is that we have, you know, major clients that have had this had in the, you know consumer packaged goods and apparel space that have had one way that they've done business is directly through retailers, you know, for pretty much their whole existence. Suddenly they need to shift to a direct to consumer model both in terms of marketing, in terms of commerce and that's not, you know, you don't just flip a switch in the back office and, you know, call IT and say hey, hey, can you change around a few things? It's actually shifting the entire core, it touches everything, it touches point of sale, it touches the customer experience, it touches supply chain, it touches employee experience even, right. >> Yeah. >> And so that's why I think it's so important for, you know technology leaders and business leaders to continue to kind of integrate themselves more tightly. >> Yes. >> To be able to make these business model transformations not just, you know, the tech that supports things. >> It's essential. >> Yeah. >> You know, we often in so many shows, Brian, we talk about alignment of business and technology, but it's not trivial. >> Yeah, yeah. >> It's absolutely fundamental to the success of every organization. And they've got to do so and as you said, I'm going to use your, your word, the compressed transformation. >> Yeah. >> A compressed timeframe. So talk to me about some customer examples where you really feel that Accenture and Coupa have helped this organization transform its supply chain to be able to be, use composable technology. >> Brian: Yeah. >> To be a leader in its industry. >> Yeah. Well, one example of that is a major industrial client that we have that has global operations across the world. And they're on a journey to kind of upgrade their digital core ERP that they've been on for a long time. And that's a multi-year journey. But at, you know, today they have needs for sourcing and procurement solutions in specific geographies around the world like Japan, for example. So what we've been able to do and it's a relatively simple example but quickly work with the client and Coupa to identify the right Coupa solution that's born in the cloud that has a great kind of user experience and implement that quickly as well as integrated it into the digital core, right. So they're not separate things. And it becomes part of that architecture, right. It just starts to kind of show the flexibility of when you have, when you come with a kind of composable technology point of view, the way we can help our clients do that. And in some other cases it's even more, you know, more cutting edge. So think about a utilities client, for example that has IOT sensors on their wires and when the, when that wire swings too far they say something's wrong. Automatically it goes back to the digital core cuts a ticket and finds the closest worker. >> Lisa: Okay. >> To then dispatch. The worker then can put on their hollow lens, for example and climb the pole and get directions on how to solve the problem right then and there, right? That's another example of you know, multiple systems, edge devices things coming together in order to create that. And it's only going to get faster, you know, with the metaverse. >> Lisa: Right. >> You know, with web 3.0 coming, with blockchain becoming more and more mainstream, companies need to be thinking about in this age of compressed transformation how to do that composable technology that you can figure and reconfigure. >> Do you think that we're in an age of compressed transformation or is that how it's going to be going forward given the global climate the last two years? >> Yeah. It's definitely going to be that way going forward over the next, you know, probably for the large part of the, the remainder of our career. I mean, we're, our CTO, Paul Daugherty, talks about us being an mega cycle, right? There's so many things changing. And even without these externalities of, you know, political issues and pandemics, you know, the introduction of AI and machine learning, a lot of these technologies I just mentioned, it's, the change is happening in every industry, in every, you know kind of area of the marketplace and in a way that's, you know, that's really exciting, right. And we get to help our clients be able to kind of solve those things not just once, but continually >> There's a tremendous amount of opportunity that's come from compressed transformation, right. A lot of opportunity, a lot of potential. What are some of the things that you're looking forward to say in the next year, as we talked about some of those business and lines of business and IT folks understand we've got to move in this direction. What excites you about the potential that you have to help these organizations really transform? >> Yeah, well, I think, I mean, the, we just came out with our new tech vision which is about the metaverse. And I think that the things that excite me are there's brand new ways like we've lived in a world where transactions take place in a very predictable way with local currencies through a single channel. And that was, that's been sort of fixed for a long time. The fundamentals of the economy or actually in the marketplace are starting to change in terms of how do we transact with things like cryptocurrencies, things like non fungible tokens, you know, all these things that we didn't, you know, they weren't, even the metaverse these were not main line words, even six you know, months ago, 12 months ago. >> Lisa: Right, right. >> Now these things, you know, every it seems like every month there's something new that is, you know, seismic to use your word that is shifting the fundamentals of the marketplace. And I think that's what's really exciting. I mean, that's where, I mean, it's probably one of the most exciting times to be in business, be in the marketplace. It certainly has a lot of challenges. >> Lisa: Yes. >> But, you know, I think we're really about using, you know, the promise of technology to unlock human ingenuity and this is a great time to be able to unlock that human ingenuity. >> And that's such a great alignment with Coupa. I was just in the keynote and there was an Accenture video, Julie Sweet was talking to some other folks about that. Great alignment in the partnership. Brian, thank you for joining me talking about composable technology, what's new, why and the potential that organizations and every business have to use it to unlock competitive advantages. >> Brian: Yeah. >> We appreciate your insights and your time. >> You bet. Pleasure to be here. >> All right. With Brian McKillips, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBEe from Coupa Inspire 2022. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome to this cube conversation with 40 net. I'm your host. Lisa Martin, Derek Minky is back. He's the chief security insights and global threat alliances at 40 minutes, 40 guard labs, Derek. Welcome back to the program. >>Likewise, we've talked a lot this year. And of course, when I saw that there are, uh, you guys have predictions from 40 guard labs, global threat intelligence and research team about the cyber threat landscape for 2022. I thought it was going to be a lot to talk about with Derek here. So let's go ahead and dig. Right in. First of all, one of the things that caught my attention was the title of the press release about the predictions that was just revealed. The press release says 40 guard labs, predict cyber attacks aimed at everything from crypto wallets to satellite internet, nothing. There is no surface that is safe anymore. Talk to me about some of the key challenges that organizations in every industry are facing. >>Yeah, absolutely. So this is a, as you said, you, you had the keyword there surface, right? That, and that attack surface is, is open for attack. That's the attack surface that we talk about it is literally be pushed out from the edge to space, like a lot of these places that had no connection before, particularly in OT environments off grid, we're talking about, uh, you know, um, uh, critical infrastructure, oil and gas, as an example, there's a lot of these remote units that were living out there that relied on field engineers to go in and, uh, you know, plug into them. They were air gapped, those such low. Those are the things that are going to be accessible by Elio's low earth orbit satellites. And there are 4,000 of those out there right now. There's going to be over 30,000. We're talking Starlink, we're talking at least four or five other competitors entering this space, no pun intended. And, um, and that's a big deal because that it's a gateway. It opens the door for cyber criminals to be able to have accessibility to these networks. And so security has to come, you know, from, uh, friends of mine there, right. >>It absolutely does. We've got this fragmented perimeter tools that are siloed, the expand and very expanded attack surface, as you just mentioned, but some of the other targets, the 5g enabled edge, the core network, of course, the home environment where many of us still are. >>Yeah, yeah, definitely. So that home environment like the edge, it is a, uh, it's, it's the smart edge, right? So we have things called edge access Trojans. These are Trojans that will actually impact and infect edge devices. And if you think about these edge devices, we're talking things that have machine learning and, and auto automation built into them a lot of privilege because they're actually processing commands and acting on those commands in a lot of cases, right? Everything from smart office, smart home option, even until the OT environment that we're talking about. And that is a juicy target for attackers, right? Because these devices naturally have more privileged. They have APIs and connectivity to a lot of these things where they could definitely do some serious damage and be used as these pivot within the network from the edge. Right. And that's, that's a key point there. >>Let's talk about the digital wallet that we all walk around with. You know, we think out so easy, we can do quick, simple transactions with apple wallet, Google smart tab, Venmo, what have you, but that's another growing source of that, where we need to be concerned, right? >>Yeah. So I, I I've, I've worn my cyber security hat for over 20 years and 10 years ago, even we were talking all about online banking Trojans. That was a big threat, right? Because a lot of financial institutions, they hadn't late ruled out things like multifactor authentication. It was fairly easy to get someone's bank credentials go in siphoned fans out of an account. That's a lot harder nowadays. And so cyber criminals are shifting tactics to go after the low hanging fruit, which are these digital wallets and often cryptocurrency, right? We've actually seen this already in 40 guard labs. Some of this is already starting to happen right now. I expect this to happen a lot more in 20, 22 and beyond. And it's because, you know, these wallets are, um, hold a lot of whole lot of value right now, right. With the crypto. And they can be transferred easily without having to do a, like a, you know, EFT is a Meijer transfers and all those sorts of things that includes actually a lot of paperwork from the financial institutions. And, you know, we saw something where they were actually hijacking these wallets, right. Just intercepting a copy and paste command because it takes, you know, it's a 54 character address people aren't typing that in all the time. So when they're sending or receiving funds, they're asking what we've actually seen in malware today is they're taking that, intercepting it and replacing it with the attackers. Well, it's simple as that bypassing all the, you know, authentication measures and so forth. >>And is that happening for the rest of us that don't have a crypto wallet. So is that happening for folks with apple wallets? And is that a growing threat concern that people need to be? It is >>Absolutely. Yeah. So crypto wallets is, is the majority of overseeing, but yeah, no, no digital wallet is it's unpatched here. Absolutely. These are all valid targets and we are starting to see activity in. I am, >>I'm sure going after those stored credentials, that's probably low-hanging fruit for the attackers. Another thing that was interesting that the 2022 predictions threat landscape, uh, highlighted was the e-sports industry and the vulnerabilities there. Talk to me about that. That was something that I found surprising. I didn't realize it was a billion dollar revenue, a year industry, a lot of money, >>A lot of money, a lot of money. And these are our full-blown platforms that have been developed. This is a business, this isn't, you know, again, going back to what we've seen and we still do see the online gaming itself. We've seen Trojans written for that. And oftentimes it's just trying to get into, and user's gaming account so that they can steal virtual equipment and current, you know, there there's virtual currencies as well. So there was some monetization happening, but not on a grand scale. This is about a shift attackers going after a business, just like any organization, big business, right. To be able to hold that hostage effectively in terms of DDoSs threats, in terms of vulnerabilities, in terms of also, you know, crippling these systems with ransomware, like we've already seen starting to hit OT, this is just another big target. Right. Um, and if you think about it, these are live platforms that rely on low latency. So very quick connections, anything that interrupts that think about the Olympics, right on sports environment, it's a big deal to them. And there's a lot of revenue that could be lost in cybercriminals fully realizes. And this is why, you know, we're predicting that e-sports is going to be a, um, a big target for them moving forward. >>Got it. And tell, let's talk about what's going on with brands. So when you and I spoke a few months ago, I think it was ransomware was up nearly 11 X in the first half of a calendar year, 2021. What are you seeing from an evolution perspective, uh, in the actual ransomware, um, actions themselves as well as what the, what the cyber criminals are evolving to. >>Yeah. So to where it's aggressive, destructive, not good words, right. But, but this is what we're seeing with ransomware. Now, again, they're not just going after data as the currency, we're seeing, um, destructive capabilities put into ransomware, including wiper malware. So this used to be just in the realm of, uh, APTT nation state attacks. We saw that with should moon. We saw that with dark soil back in 2013, so destructive threats, but in the world of apt and nation state, now we're seeing this in cyber crime. We're seeing it with ransomware and this, I expect to be a full-blown tactic for cyber criminals simply because they have the, the threat, right. They've already leveraged a lot of extortion and double extortion schemes. We've talked about that. Now they're going to be onboarding this as a new threat, basically planting these time bombs. He's ticking time bombs, holding systems for, for, for ransom saying, and probably crippling a couple of, to show that they mean business and saying, unless you pay us within a day or two, we're going to take all of these systems offline. We're not just going to take them offline. We're going to destroy them, right. That's a big incentive for people to, to, to pay up. So they're really playing on that fear element. That's what I mean about aggressive, right? They're going to be really shifting tactics, >>Aggressive and destructive, or two things you don't want in a cybersecurity environment or to be called by your employer. Just wanted to point that out. Talk to me about wiper malware. Is this new emerging, or is this something that's seeing a resurgence because this came up at the Olympics in the summer, right? >>Absolutely. So a resurgence in, in a sort of different way. Right. So, as I said, we have seen it before, but it's been not too prevalent. It's been very, uh, it's, it's been a niche area for them, right. It's specifically for these very highly targeted attack. So yes, the Olympics, in fact, two times at the Olympics in Tokyo, but also in the last summer Olympics as well. We also saw it with, as I mentioned in South Korea at dark school in 2013, we saw it an OT environment with the moon as an example, but we're talking handfuls here. Uh, unfortunately we have blogged about three of these in the last month to month and a half. Right. And that, and you know, this is starting to be married with ransomware, which is particularly a very dangerous cause it's not just my wiper malware, but couple that with the ransom tactics. >>And that's what we're starting to see is this new, this resurgent. Yes. But a completely new form that's taking place. Uh, even to the point I think in the future that it could, it could severely a great, now what we're seeing is it's not too critical in a sense that it's not completely destroying the system. You can recover the system still we're talking to master boot records, those sorts of things, but in the future, I think they're going to be going after the formal firmware themselves, essentially turning some of these devices into paperweights and that's going to be a very big problem. >>Wow. That's a very scary thought that getting to the firmware and turning those devices into paperweights. One of the things also that the report talked about that that was really interesting. Was that more attacks against the supply chain and Linux, particularly talk to us about that. What did you find there? What does it mean? What's the threat for organizations? >>Yeah. So we're seeing a diversification in terms of the platforms that cyber criminals are going after. Again, it's that attack surface, um, lower hanging fruit in a sense, uh, because they've, you know, for a fully patched versions of windows, 10 windows 11, it's harder, right. For cyber criminals than it was five or 10 years ago to get into those systems. If we look at the, uh, just the prevalence, the amount of devices that are out there in IOT and OT environments, these are running on Linux, a lot of different flavors and forms of Linux, therefore this different security holes that come up with that. And that's, that's a big patch management issue as an example too. And so this is what we, you know, we've already seen it with them or I bought net and this was in our threat landscape report, or I was the number one threat that we saw. And that's a Linux-based bot net. Now, uh, Microsoft has rolled out something called WSL, which is a windows subsystem for Linux and windows 10 and windows 11, meaning that windows supports Linux now. So that all the code that's being written for botnets, for malware, all that stuff is able to run on, on new windows platforms effectively. So this is how they're trying to expand their, uh, attack surface. And, um, that ultimately gets into the supply chain because again, a lot of these devices in manufacturing and operational technology environments rely quite heavily actually on Linux. >>Well, and with all the supply chain issues that we've been facing during the pandemic, how can organizations protect themselves against this? >>Yeah. So this, this is a big thing, right? And we talked about also the weaponization of artificial intelligence, automation and all of these, there's a lot going on as you know, right from the threats a lot to get visibility on a lot, to be able to act quickly on that's a big key metric. There is how quick you can detect these and respond to them for that. You need good threat intelligence, of course, but you also truly need to enable, uh, uh, automation, things like SD wan, a mesh architecture as well, or having a security fabric that can actually integrate devices that talk to each other and can detect these threats and respond to them quickly. That's a very important piece because if you don't stop these attacks well, they're in that movement through the attack chain. So the kill chain concept we talk about, um, the risk is very high nowadays where, you know, everything we just talked about from a ransomware and destructive capabilities. So having those approaches is very important. Also having, um, you know, education and a workforce trained up is, is equally as important to, to be, you know, um, uh, to, to be aware of these threats. >>I'm glad you brought up that education piece and the training, and that's something that 49 is very dedicated to doing, but also brings up the cybersecurity skills gap. I know when I talked with Kenzie, uh, just a couple months ago at the, um, PGA tournament, it was talking about, you know, big investments in what 40 guard, 40, 40 net is doing to help reduce that gap. But the gap is still there. How do I teach teams not get overloaded with the expanding service? It seems like the surface, the surface has just, there is no limit anymore. So how does, how does it teams that are lean and small help themselves in the fact that the threat is landscape is, is expanding. The criminals are getting smarter or using AI intelligent automation, what our it teams do >>Like fire with fire. You got to use two of the same tools that they're using on their side, and you need to be able to use in your toolkit. We're talking about a security operation center perspective to have tools like, again, this comes to the threat intelligence to get visibility on these things. We're talking Simmons, sor uh, we have, you know, 40 AI out now, uh, deception products, all these sorts of things. These are all tools that need that, that, uh, can help, um, those people. So you don't have to have a, you know, uh, hire 40 or 50 people in your sock, right? It's more about how you can work together with the tools and technology to get, have escalation paths to do more people, process procedure, as we talk about to be able to educate and train on those, to be able to have incident response planning. >>So what do you do like, because inevitably you're going to be targeted, probably interacts where attack, what do you do? Um, playing out those scenarios, doing breach and attack simulation, all of those things that comes down to the skills gaps. So it's a lot about that education and awareness, not having to do that. The stuff that can be handled by automation and AI and, and training is you're absolutely right. We've dedicated a lot with our NSC program at 49. We also have our 40 net security academy. Uh, you know, we're integrating with those secondary so we can have the skillsets ready, uh, for, for new graduates. As an example, there's a lot of progress being made towards that. We've even created a new powered by 40 guard labs. There is a 40 guard labs play in our NSC seven as an example, it's, uh, you know, for, um, uh, threat hunting and offensive security as an example, understanding really how attackers are launching their, their campaigns and, um, all those things come together. But that's the good news actually, is that we've come a long way. We actually did our first machine learning and AI models over 10 years ago, Lisa, this isn't something new to us. So the technology has gone a long way. It's just a matter of how we can collaborate and obviously integrate with that for the, on the skills gap. >>And one more question on the actual threat landscape, were there any industries that came up in particular, as we talked about e-sports we talked about OT and any industries that came up in particular as, as really big hotspots that companies and organizations really need to be aware of. >>Yeah. So also, uh, this is part of OT about ICS critical infrastructure. That's a big one. Uh, absolutely there we're seeing, uh, also cyber-criminals offering more crime services now on dark web. So CAS, which is crime as a service, because it used to be a, again, a very specialized area that maybe only a handful of organized criminal organizations could actually, um, you know, launch attacks and, and impact to those targets where they're going after those targets. Now they're offering services right on to other coming cyber criminals, to be able to try to monetize that as well. Again, we're seeing this, we actually call it advanced persistent cybercrime APC instead of an apt, because they're trying to take cyber crime to these targets like ICS, critical infrastructure, um, healthcare as well is another one, again, usually in the realm of APMT, but now being targeted more by cybercriminals in ransomware, >>I've heard of ransomware as a service, is that a subcategory of crime as a service? >>Absolutely. Yeah. It is phishing as a service ransomware as, and service DDoSs as a service, but not as, as many of these subcategories, but a ransomware as a service. That's a, another big problem as well, because this is an affiliate model, right. Where they hire partners and pay them commission, uh, if they actually get payments of ransom, right? So they have literally a middle layer in this network that they're pushing out to scale their attacks, >>You know, and I think that's the last time we talked about ransomware, we talked about it's a matter of, and I talk to customers all the time who say, yes, it's a matter of when, not, if, is, is this the same sentiment? And you think for crime as a service in general, the attacks on e-sports on home networks, on, uh, internet satellites in space, is this just a matter of when, not if across the board? >>Well, yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, but the good news is it doesn't have to be a, you know, when it happens, it doesn't have to be a catastrophic situation. Again, that's the whole point about preparedness and planning and all the things I talked about, the filling the skills gap in education and having the proper, proper tools in place that will mitigate that risk. Right. And that's, and that's perfectly acceptable. And that's the way we should handle this from the industry, because we process we've talked about this, people are over a hundred billion threats a day in 40 guard labs. The volume is just going to continue to grow. It's very noisy out there. And there's a lot of automated threats, a lot of attempts knocking on organizations, doors, and networks, and, you know, um, phishing emails being sent out and all that. So it's something that we just need to be prepared for just like you do for a natural disaster planning and all these sorts of other things in the physical world. >>That's a good point. It doesn't have to be aggressive and destructive, but last question for you, how can, how is 4d guard helping companies in every industry get aggressive and disruptive against the threats? >>Yeah. Great, great, great question. So this is something I'm very passionate about, uh, as you know, uh, where, you know, we, we don't stop just with customer protection. Of course, that is as a security vendor, that's our, our primary and foremost objective is to protect and mitigate risk to the customers. That's how we're doing. You know, this is why we have 24 7, 365 operations at 40 guy labs. Then we're helping to find the latest and greatest on threat intelligence and hunting, but we don't stop there. We're actually working in the industry. Um, so I mentioned this before the cyber threat Alliance to, to collaborate and share intelligence on threats all the way down to disrupt cybercrime. This is what big target of ours is, how we can work together to disrupt cyber crime. Because unfortunately they've made a lot of money, a lot of profits, and we need to reduce that. We need to send a message back and fight that aggressiveness and we're we're on it, right? So we're working with Interpol or project gateway with the world economic forum, the partnership against cyber crime. It's a lot of initiatives with other, uh, you know, uh, the, uh, the who's who of cyber security in the industry to work together and tackle this collaboratively. Um, the good news is there's been some steps of success to that. There's a lot more, we're doing the scale of the efforts. >>Excellent. Well, Derek as always great and very informative conversation with you. I always look forward to these seeing what's going on with the threat landscape, the challenges, the increasing challenges, but also the good news, the opportunities in it, and what 40 guard is doing 40 left 40 net, excuse me, I can't speak today to help customers address that. And we always appreciate your insights and your time we look forward to talking to you and unveiling the next predictions in 2022. >>All right. Sounds good. Thanks, Lisa. >>My pleasure for Derek manky. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this cube conversation with 40 net. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> We're back. This is Dave Vellante of theCUBE, and we're here with Ray Wang, who just wrote a book reminiscent of the famous Tears for Fears song, Everybody Wants to Rule the World: Surviving and Thriving in a World of Digital Giants. Ray, great to see again, man. >> What's going on, man, how are you? >> Oh great, thanks for coming on. You know, it was crazy, been crazy, but it's good to see you face-to-face. >> Ray: This is, we're in the flesh, it's live, we're having conversations, and the information that we're getting is cut right. >> Dave: Yeah, so why did you write this book and how did you find the time? >> Hey, we're in the middle of pandemic. No, I wrote the book because what was happening was digital transformation efforts, they're starting to pop up, but companies weren't always succeeding. And something was happening with digital giants that was very different. They were winning in the marketplace. And never in the form of, if you think about extreme capitalism, if we think about capitalism in general, never in the history of capitalism have we seen growth of large companies. They get large, they fall apart, they don't have anything to build, they can't scale. Their organizations are in shambles. But what happened? If you look at 2017, the combined market cap of the FAANGs and Microsoft was 2 trillion. Today, it is almost 10.2 trillion. It's quintupled. That's never happened. And there's something behind that business model that they put into place that others have copied, from the Airbnbs to the Robloxes to what's going to happen with like a Starlink, and of course, the Robinhoods and you know, Robinhoods and Coinbases of the world. >> And the fundamental premise is all around data, right? Putting data at the core, if you don't do that, you're going to fly blind. >> It is and the secret behind that is the long-term platforms called data-driven digital networks. These platforms take the ability, large memberships, our large devices, they look at that effect. Then they look at figuring out how to actually win on data supremacy. And then of course, they monetize off that data. And that's really the secret behind that is you've got to build that capability and what they do really well is they dis-intermediate customer account control. They take the relationships, aggregate them together. So food delivery app companies are great example of that. You know, small businesses are out there that hundreds and thousands of customers. Today, what happens? Well, they've been aggregated. Millions of customers together into food delivery app. >> Well, I think, you know, this is really interesting what you're saying, because if you think about how we deal with Netflix, we don't call the Netflix sales department or the marketing department of the service, just one interface, the Netflix. So they've been able to put data at their core. Can incumbents do that? How can they do that? >> Incumbents can definitely do that. And it's really about figuring out how to automate that capture. What you really want to do is you start in the cloud, you bring the data together, and you start putting the three A's, analytics, automation, and AI are what you have to be able to put into place. And when you do do that, you now have the ability to go out and figure out how to create that flywheel effect inside those data-driven digital networks. These DDDNS are important. So in Netflix, what are they capturing? They're looking at sentiment, they're looking at context. Like why did you interact with, you know, one title versus another? Did you watch Ted Lasso? Did you switch out of Apple TV to Netflix? Well, I want to know why, right? Did you actually jump into another category? You switched into genres. After 10:00 p.m., what are you watching? Maybe something very different than what you're watching at 2:00 p.m.. How many members are in the home, right? All these questions are being answered and that's the business graph behind all this. >> How much of this is kind of related to the way organizations or companies are organized? In other words, you think about, historically, they would maybe put the process at the core or the, in a bottling plant, the manufacturing facility at the core and the data's all dispersed. Everybody talks about silos. So will AI be the answer to that? Will some new database, Snowflake? Is that the answer? What's the answer to sort of bringing that data together and how do you deal with the organizational inertia? >> Well, the trick to it is really to have a single plane to be able to access that data. I don't care where the data sits, whether it's on premise, whether it's in the cloud, whether it's in the edge, it makes no difference. That's really what you want to be able to do is bring that information together. But the glue is the context. What time was it? What's the weather outside? What location are you in? What's your heart rate? Are you smiling, right? All of those factors come into play. And what we're trying to do is take a user, right? So it could be a customer, a supplier, a partner, or an employee. And how do they interact with an order doc, an invoice, an incident, and then apply the context. And what we're doing is mining that context and information. Now, the more, back to your other point on self service and automation, the more you can actually collect those data points, the more you can capture that context, the more you're able to get to refine that information. >> Context, that's interesting, because if you think about our operational systems, we've contextualized most of them, whether it's sales, marketing, logistics, but we haven't really contextualized our data systems, our data architecture. It's generally run by a technical group. They don't necessarily have the line of business context. You see what HPE is doing today is trying to be inclusive of data on prem. I mentioned Snowflake, they're saying no way. Frank Slootman says we're not going on prem. So that's kind of interesting. So how do you see sort of context evolving with the actually the business line? Not only who has the context actually can, I hate to use the word, but I'm going to, own the data. >> You have to have a data to decisions pathway. That data decisions pathway is you start with all types of data, structured, unstructured, semi-structured, you align it to a business process as an issue, issue to resolution, order to cash, procure to pay, hire to retire. You bring that together, and then you start mining and figuring out what patterns exist. Once you have the patterns, you can then figure out the next best action. And when you get the next best action, you can compete on decisions. And that becomes a very important part. That decision piece, that's going to be automated. And when we think about that, you and I make a decision one per second, how long does it get out of management committee? Could be a week, two weeks, a quarter, a year. It takes forever to get anything out of management committee. But these new systems, if you think about machines, can make decisions a hundred times per second, a thousand times per second. And that's what we're competing against. That asymmetry is the decision velocity. How quickly you can make decisions will be a competitive weapon. >> Is there a dissonance between the fact that you just mentioned, speed, compressing, that sort of time to decision, and the flip side of that coin, quality, security, governance. How do you see squaring that circle? >> Well, that's really why we're going to have to make that, that's the automated, that's the AI piece. Just like we have all types of data, we got to spew up automated ontologies, we got to spit them up, we got to be using, we've got to put them back into play, and then we got to be able to take back into action. And so you want enterprise class capabilities. That's your data quality. That's your security. That's the data governance. That's the ability to actually take that data and understand time series, and actually make sure that the integrity of that data is there. >> What do you think about this sort of notion that increasingly, people are going to be building data products and services that can be monetized? And that's kind of goes back to context, the business lines kind of being responsible for their own data, not having to get permission to add another data source. Do you see that trend? Do you see that decentralization trend? Two-part question. And where do you see HPE fitting into that? >> I see, one, that that trend is definitely going to exist. I'll give you an example. I can actually destroy the top two television manufacturers in the world in less than five years. I could take them out of the business and I'll show you how to do it. So I'm going to make you an offer. $15 per month for the next five years. I'm going to give you a 72 inch, is it 74? 75 inch, 75 inch smart TV, 4k, big TV, right? And it comes with a warranty. And if anything breaks, I'm going to return it to you in 48 hours or less with a brand new one. I don't want your personal information. I'm only going to monitor performance data. I want to know the operations. I want to know which supplier lied to me, which components are working, what features you use. I don't need to know your personal viewing habits, okay? Would you take that deal? >> TV is a service, sure, of course I would. >> 15 bucks and I'm going to make you a better deal. For $25 a month, you get to make an upgrade anytime during that five-year period. What would happen to the two largest TV manufacturers if I did that? >> Yeah, they'd be disrupted. Now, you obviously have a pile of VC money that you're going to do that. Will you ever make money at that model? >> Well, here's why I'll get there and I'll explain. What's going to happen is I lock them out of the market for four to five years. I'm going to take 50 to 60% of the market. Yes, I got to raise $10 billion to figure out how to do that. But that's not really what happens at the end. I become a data company because I have warranty data. I'm going to buy a company that does, you know, insurance like in Asurion. I'm going to get break/fix data from like a Best Buy or a company like that. I'm going to get at safety data from an underwriter's lab. It's a competition for data. And suddenly, I know those habits better than anyone else. I'm going to go do other things more than the TV. I'm not done with the TV. I'm going to do your entire kitchen. For $100 a month, I'll do a mid range. For like $500 a month, I'm going to take your dish washer, your washer, your dryer, your refrigerator, your range. And I'll do like Miele, Gaggenau, right? If you want to go down Viking, Wolf, I'll do it for $450 a month for the next 10 years. By year five, I have better insurance information than the insurance companies from warranty. And I can even make that deal portable. You see where we're going? >> Yeah so each of those are, I see them as data products. So you've got your TV service products, you've got your kitchen products, you've got your maintenance, you know, data products. All those can be monetized. >> And I went from TV manufacturer to underwriter overnight. I'm competing on data, on insurance, and underwriting. And more importantly, here's the green initiative. Here's why someone would give me $10 billion to do it. I now control 50% of all power consumption in North America because I'm also going to do HVAC units, right? And I can actually engineer the green capabilities in there to actually do better power purchase consumption, better monitoring, and of course, smart capabilities in those, in those appliances. And that's how you actually build a model like that. And that's how you can win on a data model. Now, where does HPE fit into that? Their job is to bring that data together at the edge. They bring that together in the middle. Then they have the ability to manage that on a remote basis and actually deliver those services in the cloud so that someone else can consume it. >> All right, so if you, you're hitting on something that some people have have talked about, but it's, I don't think it's widely sort of discussed. And that is, historically, if you're in an industry, you're in that industry's vertical stack, the sales, the marketing, the manufacturing, the R&D. You become an expert in insurance or financial services or whatever, you know, automobile manufacturing or radio and television, et cetera. Obviously, you're seeing the big internet giants, those 10 trillion, you know, some of the market caps, they're using data to traverse industries. We've never seen this before. Amazon in content, you're seeing Apple in finance, others going into the healthcare. So they're technology companies that are able to traverse industries. Never seen this before, and it's because of data. >> And it's the collapsing value chains. Their data value chains are collapsing. Comms, media, entertainment, tech, same business. Whether you sell me a live stream TV, a book, a video game, or some enterprise software, it's the same data value stream on multi-sided networks. And once you understand that, you can see retail, right? Distribution, manufacturing collapsed in the same kind of way. >> So Silicon Valley broadly defined, if I can include, you know, Microsoft and Amazon in there, they seem to have a dual disruption agenda, right? One is on the technology front, disrupting, you know, the traditional enterprise business. The other is they're disrupting industries. How do you see that playing out? >> Well the problem is, they're never going to be able to get into new industries going forward because of the monopoly power that people believe they have, and that's what's going on, but they're going to invest in creating joint venture startups in other industries, as they power the tools to enable other industries to jump and leap frog from where they are. So healthcare, for example, we're going to have AI in monitoring in ways that we never seen before. You can see devices enter healthcare, but you see joint venture partnerships between a big hyperscaler and some of the healthcare providers. >> So HPE transforming into a cloud company as a service, do you see them getting into insurance as you just described in your little digital example? >> No, but I see them powering the folks that are in insurance, right? >> They're not going to compete with their customers maybe the way that Amazon did. >> No, that's actually why you would go to them as opposed to a hyperscale that might compete with you, right? So is Google going to get into the insurance business? Probably not. Would Amazon? Maybe. Is Tesla in the business? Yeah, they're definitely in insurance. >> Yeah, big time, right. So, okay. So tell me more about your book. How's it being received? What's the reaction? What's your next book? >> So the book is doing well. We're really excited. We did a 20 city book tour. We had chances to meet everybody across the board. Clients we couldn't see in a while, partners we didn't see in a while. And that was fun. The reaction is, if you read the book carefully, there are $3 trillion market cap opportunities, $1000 billion unicorns that can be built right there. >> Is, do you have a copy for me that's signed? (audience laughing) >> Ray: Sorry (coughs) I'm choking on my makeup. I can get one actually, do you want one? >> Dave: I do, I want, I want one. >> Can someone bring my book bag? I actually have one, I can sign it right here. >> Dave: Yeah, you know what? If we have a book, I'd love to hold it. >> Ray: Do you have any here as well? >> So it's obviously you know, Everybody Wants to Rule the World: Surviving and Thriving in a world of Digital Giants, available, you know, wherever you buy books. >> Yeah, so, oh, are we still going? >> Dave: Yeah, yeah, we're going. >> Okay. >> Dave: What's the next book? >> Next book? Well, it's about disrupting those digital giants and it's going to happen in the metaverse economy. If we think about where the metaverse is, not just the hardware platforms, not just the engines, not just what's going on with the platforms around defy decentralization and the content producers, we see those as four different parts today. What we're going to actually see is a whole comp, it's a confluence of events that's going to happen where we actually bring in the metaverse economy and the stuff that Neal Stephenson was writing about ages ago in Snow Crash is going to come out real. >> So, okay. So you're laying out a scenario that the big guys, the disruptors, could get disrupted. It sounds like crypto is possibly a force in that disruption. >> Ray: Decentralized currencies, crypto plays a role, but it's the value exchange mechanisms in an Algorand, in an Ether, right, in a Cardano, that actually enables that to happen because the value exchange in the smart contracts power that capability, and what we're actually seeing is the reinvention of the internet. So you think, see things like SIOM pop-up, which actually is creating the new set of the internet standards, and when those things come together, what we're actually going to move from is the seller is completely transparent, the buyer's completely anonymous and it's in a trust framework that actually allows you to do that. >> Well, you think about those protocols, the internet protocols that were invented whenever, 30 years ago, maybe more, TCP/IP, wow. I mean, okay. And they've been co-opted by the internet giants. It's the crypto guys, some of the guys you've mentioned that are actually innovating and putting, putting down new innovation really and have been well-funded to do so. >> I mean, I'll give you another example of how this could happen. About four years ago, five years ago, I wanted to buy Air Canada's mileage program, $400 million, 10 million users, 40 bucks a user. What do I want them in a mileage program? Well think about it. It's funded, a penny per mile. It's redeemed at 1.6 cents a mile. It's 2 cents if you buy magazines, 2 1/2 cents if you want, you know, electronics, jewelry, or sporting equipment. You don't lose money on these. CFOs hate them, they're just like (groans) liability on the books, but they mortgage the crap out of them in the middle of an ish problem and banks pay millions of dollars a year pour those mileage points. But I don't want it for the 10 million flyers in Canada. What I really want is the access to 762 million people in Star Alliance. What would happen if I turned that airline mileage program into cryptocurrency? One, I would be the world's largest cryptocurrency on day one. What would happen on day two? I'd be the world's largest ad network. Cookie apocalypse, go away. We don't need that anymore. And more importantly, on day three, what would I do? My ESG here? 2.2 billion people are unbanked in the world. All you need is a mobile device and a connection, now you have a currency without any government regulation around, you know, crayon banking, intermediaries, a whole bunch of people like taking cuts, loansharking, that all goes away. You suddenly have people that are now banked and you've unbanked, you've banked the unbanked. And that creates a whole very different environment. >> Not a lot of people thinking about how the big giants get disintermediated. Get the book, look into it, big ideas. Ray Wang, great to see you, man. >> Ray: Hey man, thanks a lot. >> Hey, thank you. All right and thank you for watching. Keep it right there for more great content from HPE's big GreenLake announcements. Be right back. (bright music)

>>Okay. Okay. We're back on the cube here in cloud city. I'm John Farah, David latte. Thanks Adam. And guys in the studio. Awesome stuff. Dave mobile world Congress is happening. It's basically a hybrid show. Mostly virtual. Actually the physical action is a lot of booths. Cloud city is tricked out, big time made for TV. The cubes, obviously here, we've got the main stage with Adam and crew, Chloe and team, and it's pretty, pretty cool. Cloud cities, thematic John, we're going to see the next decade be about the cloudification of telco and major, major portions of telco. We're going to move to the cloud. It's very clear. And especially the front end stuff, a lot of the business support systems, some of the operational systems are going to go. When you're seeing that, you're seeing that with Amazon, you're seeing Microsoft, you're seeing Google. They're all moving in that direction. >>So it's inevitable. And I just love the fact that events are back. That's a game changing statement. Mobile world. Congress is not going to go away. There's no way they're going to let this event slide by. Even though we're coming out of the pandemic, clearly Bon Jovi was here. He said, quote, we met him last night, face to face. He's like, go Patriots. Hope they have a good season. This year. He's a big Patriots fan. He said, it's going to be better. This could be better. But he also said he it's the first time he's performed in a year and a half in front of all excited. He wasn't calm, small little intimate crowd. Again, look behind this. You can see the cloud city. This is really built out extremely well. A lot of executives here, but the content has been awesome here, but also remote. We've been bringing people in live remotes and we also had some prerecorded assets that we have. And we've got one here from Booz Allen, who I had a conversation with earlier in the month and grab some time to talk about the impact of 5g telecom and how it relates to national security for cover mints and society. And so let's take a look at that video right now. >>Hi, welcome to the cube conversation here in the cube studios in Palo Alto, California, I'm John for a, your host had a great conversation with two great guests gonna explore the edge, what it means in terms of commercial, but also national security. And as the world goes digital, we're going to have the deep dive conversation around, um, how it's all transforming. We've got Kate Lee, vice president Booz Allen's digital business. Kate. Great to have you, uh, John Paisano principal at Booz Allen's digital cloud solutions. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on. So one of the most hottest topics, obviously besides cloud computing, having the most refactoring impact on business and government and public sector has been the next phase of cloud growth and cloud scale, and that's really modern applications, um, and consumer, and then here, uh, for national security and for governments here in the U S is in the military impact. >>And as digital transformation starts to go to the next level, you starting to see the architectures emerge, where the edge, the IOT edge, the industrial IOT edge, or any kind of edge concept 5g is exploding, making that much more of a dense, more throughput for connectivity with wireless. You've got Amazon with snowballs, snowmobile, all kinds of ways to deploy technology. That's it like and operational technologies it's causing quite a cloud operational opportunity and disruption. So I want to get into it. Let's key. Let's start with you. I mean, we're looking at an architecture, that's changing both commercial and public sector with the edge. What are the key considerations that you guys see as people have to really move fast and this new architecture of digital, >>Which I think is a great question. And, um, if I could just, uh, share our observation on why we even started investing in edge, um, you mentioned cloud, um, but as we've reflected upon kind of the history of it on you to take a look from mainframes to desktops, to servers, to a cloud, to mobile, and now I have a T what we observed was that, um, industry investing in infrastructure led to kind of an evolution of, uh, uh, of it, right? So as you mentioned with industry spending billions on IOT and edge, um, we've just feel that that's going to be the next evolution. Um, if you've take a look at, um, you mentioned 5g, I think 5g will be certainly, um, an accelerator to edge, um, because of the, the resilience, the lower latency and so forth, but, um, taking a look at what's happening in space, you mentioned space earlier as well, right. >>Um, and, uh, what, uh, Starlink is doing by putting satellites to actually provide transport into the space. Um, we're thinking that that actually is going to be the next ubiquitous thing. Once transport becomes ubiquitous, just like cloud allows stores to be ubiquitous. We think that, you know, the next generation internet will be space-based. Um, so when you think about it, um, connected, it won't be connected servers per se. It will be connected devices. Um, so, uh, that's kind of, you know, some of the observations and why we've been really focusing on investing in, in edge. >>Awesome. I'd love to sh to, uh, continue the conversation on space and the edge, um, and super great conversation to have you guys on and really appreciate it. I do want to ask you guys about the innovation and the opportunities, uh, this new shift that's happening is the next big thing is coming quickly and it's here on us and that's cloud. I call it cloud 2.0, the cloud scale, modern software development environment, uh, edge with 5g changing the game. I key, I completely agree with you. And I think this is where people are focusing their attention from startups to companies that are transforming and repivoting, or refactoring their, their, uh, existing assets to be positioned. And you're starting to see clear winners and losers as a pattern emerge, right? You gotta be in the cloud, you gotta be leveraging data. You gotta be, uh, horizontally scalable, but you've gotta have AI machine learning in there with modern software practices that are secure. >>That's the playbook. Some people are it, some people are not getting there. So I got to ask you guys, you know, as telcos become super important and the ability to be a telco. Now, we just mentioned standing up a tactical edge, for instance, uh, launching a satellite couple of hundred K you're going to launch a cube set. Um, that could be good and bad, right? So, so, you know, the telco business is changing radically cloud telco cloud is emerging as an edge phenomenon with 5g, certainly business commercial benefits, more than consumer. How do you guys see the innovation and disruption happening with telco? >>Um, you know, as we think through, um, cloud to edge, um, one thing that we realized, because our definition of edge, John was actually at the point of data collection, right on the sensor themselves, others definition of edge is we're a little bit further back when we call it the edge of the it enterprise. Um, but you know, as we look at this, we realize that you need, you needed this kind of multi echelon environment, right? From your cloud to your tactical clouds, right. Where you can do some processing and then at the edge themselves, really at the end of the day, it's all about, I think, data, right? I mean, everything we're talking about is still all about the data, right? The AI needs to Dane, the telco is transporting the data. Right. And so, um, I think if you think about it from a data perspective, in relationship to telcos, right, one edge will actually enable a very different paradigm in a distributed paradigm for data processing. Right. So instead of bringing the data to some central cloud, right. Um, which takes bandwidth off your telcos, push the products to the data, right. So mitigate, what's actually being sent over to those telco lines to increase the efficiencies of them. Right. Um, so I think, you know, at the end of the day, uh, the telcos are gonna have a pretty big, uh, component to this, um, even from space down to ground station, right. How that works. Um, so, um, the, the network of these telcos, I think, are just going to expand >>John, what's your perspective. I mean, startups are coming out. The scalability speed of innovation is a big factor. The old telco days had like, I mean, you know, months and years, new towers go up and now you've got backbone. You've got, you know, it's kind of a slow glacier pace. Now it's under siege with rapid innovation. >>Yeah. So, um, I definitely echo the sentiments that Q would have, but I would also, if we go back and think about the digital battle space and what we've talked about, um, faster speeds being available, you know, in places it's not been before is great. However, when you think about basing an adversary, that's a near peer threat. The first thing they're going to do is make it contested congested, and you have to be able to survive. I, while yes, the, the pace of innovation is absolutely pushing comms. The places we've not had it before. Um, we have to be mindful to not get complacent and over rely on it, assuming it will always be there because I know in my experience wearing the uniform and even if I'm up against it adversary, that's the first thing I'm gonna do is I'm going to do whatever I can to disrupt your ability to communicate. So how do you take it down to that lowest level and still make that squad, the platoon, whatever that structure is, you know, continued some survivable and lethal. And so that's something I think, as we look at the innovations, we need to be mindful of that so low. And I talk about how do you architect it? What services do you use? Those are all those things that you have to think about. What if I lose it at this echelon? How could, how do I continue to mission? >>Yeah. It's interesting. Mean if you look at how companies have been procuring and consuming technology key, it's been like siloed. Okay. We've got a workplace workforce project, uh, and we have the tactical edge and we have the, you know, siloed it solution when really work in play, whether it's work here. And John's example is the war fighter. And so his concern is safety is his life. Right. And, and protection, the department has to manage the coms. And so they have to have countermeasures and contingencies ready to go. Right. So all this is integrate integrated. Now it's not like one department it's like, it's it's together. >>Yeah. Do you, I mean, you're, you're, uh, I love what you just said. I mean, we have to get away from this siloed siloed banking. Um, not only within a single organization, but across the enterprise. Right. Um, you know, from a digital battlefield perspective, you know, I, you know, it's a joint fight, right. So even across these enterprise of enterprises, right. So I think you're spot on. We have to look horizontally, uh, we have to integrate, we have to inter-operate. Um, and, and by doing that, that's where the innovation is also going to be accelerated too. Right. Not reinventing the wheel. >>Yeah. You know, I think the infrastructure edge is so key. It's going to be very interesting to see how the existing incumbents can handle themselves. Obviously the towers are important. Five GLC has much more, more deployments, not as centralized in terms of the, of the spectrum. Uh, it's more dense. It's gonna create more connectivity options. Um, how do you guys see that impacting? Because certainly more gear, like, obviously not, not the centralized tower from a backhaul standpoint, but now the edge, the radios themselves, the wireless, uh, uh, uh, transit is key. Um, that's the real edge here. How does, how do you guys see that evolving? >>So, um, you know, we're seeing, uh, we're seeing a lot of, um, innovations actually through small companies. We're really focused on very specific niche problems. I think it's a great starting point, um, because what they're doing is showing the art of the possible, right. Um, because again, we're in a different environment now there's different rules, there's different capabilities now, but then we're also seeing, you mentioned earlier on, um, uh, some of the larger companies, Amazon and Microsoft also investing, um, as well. Right. So, um, I think the merge of the, you know, are the unconstrained are the possible right by these small companies that are, you know, just kind of driving, you know, uh, innovations, uh, supported by the, the, the maturity and the, the, the heft of these large companies who are building out kind of these, um, pardoned kind of, uh, capabilities. Um, they're going to converge at some point, right. Um, and, and that's where I think they want to get further innovation. >>Well, I really appreciate you guys taking the time. Final question for you guys, as people are watching this, a lot of smart executives and teams are coming together to kind of put the battle plans together for their companies, as they transition from old to this new way, which is clearly cloud-scale role of data. We've got them, we hit out all the key points. I think here, as they start to think about architecture and how they deploy their resources, this becomes now the new boardroom conversation that trickles down and includes everyone, including the developers. You know, the developers are now going to be on the front lines. Um, mid-level managers are going to be integrated in as well. It's a group conversation. What are some of the advice that you would give to folks who are in this mode of planning, architecture, trying to be positioned to come out of this pandemic with a massive growth opportunity and, and to be on the right side of history? What's your advice? >>Um, this is a quick question. Um, so I think, um, you, you touched upon it. Um, one is take the holistic approach. Uh, you mentioned orchestras a couple of times, and I think that's, that's critical understanding, um, how your edge architectures will let you connect with your cloud architecture. So they're, they're not disjointed, right? They're not siloed, right. They're interoperable, they integrate. So you're taking that enterprise approach. Um, I think the second thing is be patient. Uh, it took us some time to really kind of, and we've been looking at this for, uh, about three years now. Um, and we were very intentional in assessing the landscape, how people were, you know, um, discussing around edge, um, and kind of pulling that all together, but it took us some time to even figure it out, kind of, Hey, what are the use cases? How can we actually apply this and get some ROI and value, um, out for our clients? Right. So being a little bit patient, um, in thinking through kind of how you can leverage this and potentially be a disruptor, >>John, your thoughts on advice to people watching as they try to put the right plans together to be positioned and not foreclose any future value. >>Yeah, absolutely. So, in addition to the points, the key res I would, number one, amplified the fact of recognize that you're going to have a hybrid environment of legacy and modern capabilities. And in addition to thinking, you know, open architectures and whatnot, think about your culture, the people, your processes, your techniques, and whatnot, and your governance. How do you make decisions when it needs to be closed versus open? Where do you invest in the workforce? What decisions are you going to make in your architecture that drive that, that hybrid world that you're going to live in? All those recipes, you know, patients open all that, that I think we often overlook the cultural people aspect of, you know, upskilling it, this is a very different way of thinking on modern software delivery. Like, how do you go through this lifecycle? How's security embedded. So making sure that's part of that boardroom conversation >>Back day, this is a great interview. We just had with Kaley for Booz Allen reason, why I wanted to bring that into the cube programming this week was because you heard him saying ivory cloud. You heard him say public cloud innovation, edge, all elements of the architecture. And he says, we are learning and it takes patience. And the other thing that he was hyper focused on was the horizontal scalability, not silos. And this is an architectural shift. Who's Alan again, premier firm, and they're doing like killer work. Those guys are amazing. So this brings up the whole theme here, which is you got to nail the architecture. If you don't know what checkmate looks like, don't play chess. That's what I always say. Well, you don't know what the game is, don't play it. And I think the telco story that we hear from Dr is that these guys don't know the game. >>Now I would question that Amazon and others think they do because as they're all partnering with them, yeah, Amazon's got great partnerships. Google just announced a partnership with Ericsson goes on and on. I think anything that can move into the hybrid cloud, Ken should and will that'll happen, but there's some stuff that's going to take some time. Maybe we'll never move. You see that with mainframes. But what they'll do is they'll put an abstraction layer around it and it's got to communicate. And I think the big question is, okay, is it going to be the cloud stack coming on prem, which I think is going to happen, or is it going to be the reverse? And I would bet on the former, well, you know, we've been covering the cloud from day one. We've been part of that wave. We've had all the top conversations with Andy Jassy when, and he was just breaking through the growth. All the cloud players we've been there. We talked to all their customers. We have our finger on the pulse of cloud and we are in cloud city. Main street of cloud city is where all the action is. And the main stage is up there. Adam and team take it from here.

(upbeat music) >> Okay, thanks to the studio there for the handoff. Appreciate it, we're here for breaking news and it's exciting that we have Amol Phadke who's the Managing Director, Google is breaking some hard news here, Dave, so we want to bring him in and get commentary while we end out day two. Obviously, the story here is CLOUD CITY. We are in the CLOUD CITY. Amol, thanks for coming on remotely into our physical hybrid set here. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. I'm very excited to be here, virtually at MWC 21. >> Oh we got Bon Jovi ready to play. Everyone's waiting for that concert and you're the only thing standing between Bon Jovi and all the great stuff so. >> A lot of people watching. >> Thanks for coming on. Seriously you guys got some big news first Ericsson partners with you guys on 5G, platform deal with anthesis as well as open O-ran Alliance. You guys are joining huge testament to the industry. Obviously Google with all your innovation you guys have in the big three cloud hyperscalers. Obviously you guys invented SRE, so you know, you're no stranger to large scale. What's the news? Tell us why this Ericsson news is so important. Let's start with the Ericsson announcement. >> Sure, so, John, I mean, we are very excited today to finally bring to the market, the strategic partnership that we've been building with Ericsson for the last few months, the partnership, the reason we feel this is very important to the industry is we are actually doing this in conjunction with very large CSPs. So it's not done in isolation. You in fact saw in the press release that we have already launched something together with Telecom Italia in Italy. Because you will see that also in the press. And really the partnership is on three pillars. Number one, how can CSPs monetize 5G and Edge, which is a real team at the moment using Google Clouds solutions like the Edge computing platform and Anthos and Ericsson's cutting Edge 5G components, 5G solutions. And if we can onboard this together at the CSPs, such as Telecom Italia, that creates massive time to market efficiency. So that's point 1. Speed and agility is key John. But then point 2, it also unlocks a lot of Edge use cases for a bunch of verticals, retail, manufacturing, healthcare and so on. Which we are already starting to launch together with Ericsson. And so that's the second pillar. And then the final pillar of course, is this continuous wave of Cloud Native innovation that you just highlighted, John. We are going to try and double down on it between ourselves and Ericsson to really try and create this Cloud Native Application Suite for 5G over time. >> Talk about the innovations around Cloud, because the message we're hearing this year at Mobile World Congress is that the public cloud is driving the innovation and you know, I can be a little bit over the top and say, so the Telcos are slow, they're like glaciers, they move slow, but they're just moving packets. They are there, they're moving the network around. The innovation is happening on top. So there's some hardened operations operating the networks. Now you have a build concept, Cloud Native enables that. So you've got containers. You can put that, encapsulate that older technology and integrate it in. So this is not a rip and replace, someone has to die to win. This is a partnership with the Telco's. Can you share your thoughts on that piece? >> Spot on, John, spot on. We, we believe that it's a massive partnership opportunity. There's zero conflict or tensions in this sort of ecosystem. And the reason for that is, when you talk about that containerization and write once and deploy everywhere type architecture, that we are trying to do, that's where the Cloud Native be really helps. Like when you create Ericsson 5G solutions with the operators at Telecom Italia, once you build a solution, you don't have to worry about, do I need to go create that again and again for every deployment. As long as you have Anthos and Ericsson working, you should be able to have the same experience everywhere. >> Yeah, John and I talk all the time in theCUBE about how developers are really going to drive the Edge. You're clearly doing that with your Distributor Cloud, building out a Telco Cloud. I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about how you see that evolving and a lot of the AI that's done today is done in the cloud. A lot of modeling being done. When you think about Edge, you think about AI inferencing, you think about all these monetization opportunities. How are you thinking about that? >> Sure, so I think David first of all, it's a fantastic segue into how we are looking at analytics at the Edge, right? So we, we have realized that (connection disruption) is a very, very data computing, heavy operation. So certainly the training of the models is still going to stay in cloud for the foreseeable future. But the influencing part that you mentioned, is definitely something that we can offload to the Edge? Why is that so important? In the pandemic era think of running a shop or a factory floor, completely autonomously, needing zero minimal human intervention. And if you want to look at an assembly line and look at AI influencing as a way to find out assembly line defects on products and manufacturing. That's a very difficult problem to solve unless you actually create those influencing models at the Edge. So creating that ecosystem of an Ericsson and a Google Cloud and Telecom Italia type of carrier, gives you that Edge placement of the workloads that would fit right next to a factory floor in our manufacturing example. And then on top of that, you could run the AI influencing to really put in the hands of the manufacturer, a visual inspection capability to just bring this to life. >> Great, thank you for that and now the other piece of the announcement of course is the open, Open RAN. We've been talking about that all week. And you know, you well remember when Cloud first came out, people were concerned about security. And of course, now everybody's asking the question, can we still get the reliability and the security that we're used to with the Telcos? And of course over time we learned that you guys actually are pretty good at security. So how do you see the security component? Maybe first talk about the Open RAN piece, why that's important and how security fits? >> Sure, so first of all, Open RAN is something that we have taken great interest in the last year or so as it started evolving. And the reason for that is fairly simple Dave, this aggregation of networks has been happening for some time. In the radio layer, we believe that's the final frontier of sort of unlocking and desegregating that radio layer. And why is that so important? 80% of the operators spent globally is on radio across the entire infrastructure, 80% is on radio. If you disaggregate that and if you created synergies for your CSP partners and clients, that meant you have standard purpose hardware, standard purpose software with open interfaces, number one, massive difference in PCO. Number two, the supply chain gets streamlined and becomes a really, really simple way to manage a fairly large distribution, that's about to get larger with 5G and the capillarity that 5G needs. You're thinking of tens of thousands of micro cells and radio cells going everywhere. And having that kind of standardized hardware, software with open interfaces, is an extremely important cost dimension too. And on the revenue side, the things is that, the reason we got so excited with Open RAN was, you can now run a lot of API's on the radio net itself. That then suddenly brings a whole developer community on the radio layer. That then helps you do a bunch of things like closed loop automation for network optimization, as well as potentially looking at monetization opportunities by hyper personalizing yours and mine experiences at a device level, from the cell tower. And so that really is what is driving us towards this Open RAN type announcement. >> John: Amol, we've only got a minute and a half. I want to get your thoughts real quick on, on Open Source and the innovation. Danielle Royston, who's the CEO of TelcoDr. She's a keynote today. And she mentioned that the iPhone, 14 years ago was launched, okay. And you think about Open, and you mentioned proprietary with the 5G, and having O-RAN be more commodity and industry standard. That's going to lower the costs, increase the surface area of infrastructure. Everyone wins, 'cause everyone wants more connectivity options. Software is going to be the key to success for the telco industry, and Open Source is driving that. Is Android the playbook that you guys pioneered, obviously at Google with phones was very successful. How is that a playbook or an indicator to what could happen at Telco? >> Absolutely John and the parallel analogy that you raised is spot on. We believe in the Telco world Anthos multi-cloud as a unifying software development layer and the app development platform is the way that people will start to drive this innovation. Whether it's a radio or whether it's in the core or whether it's on the IT side of house. Same software running everywhere. That really allows you that whole CICD SRE type development models that we are familiar with, but on the telecom side. And that's where we are seeing some massive innovation opportunities for start, that would be for systems to come on. >> John: That's great stuff. And I was, just heard someone in the hallway just yesterday and say, you want to be the smartphone. You don't want to be the Blackberry going forward. That's pretty much the consensus here at Mobile World Congress. Amol, thank you for coming on and sharing the hard news with Google. Congratulations on the Ericsson Anthos platform deal as well as the Open Ran Alliance. Congratulations, good to see you. And by the way, you'll be keynoting tomorrow on theCUBE featured segments. So, watch that interview. >> Thank you John. Glad to be here. >> Thanks Amol. Managing Director, Telecom Industry Solutions at Google, obviously player, he's managing that business. Big opportunities for Google because they have the technology to get the chops Dave, and we're going to now, bring on Danielle Royston, she's here, I want to bring her up on the stage. Bon Jovi's about to go on, behind us, Bon Jovi's here. And this is like a nightclub, small intimate setting here in CLOUD CITY. Dave, Bon Jovi is right there. He's going to come on stage after we close down here, but first let's bring up the CEO of TelcoDR, Danielle Royston, great to see you. She's hot off the keynote. We're going to see you have a mic. Great to see you. >> Oh, it's great to be here, awesome. >> We are going to see you tomorrow for an official unpacking of the keynote but thanks for coming by and closing, swinging by. >> I know we're closing down the show. It's been a big, it's been a big day today at MWC and in CLOUD CITY. >> And Bon Jovi by the way. >> Day two, I mean really starting to get packed. >> And I mean, everyone's coming in, the band's warming up. You can kind of hear it. I think Elon Musk is about to go on as well. So I mean, it's really happening. >> A lot of buzz about CLOUD CITY out there in the hallway. >> Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I think everyone's talking about it. I'm really, really excited >> Awesome. >> with how it's going, so yeah. >> Well, this is awesome, while we got you here, we want to put you to work being theCUBE analyst for this segment. You just heard Google. We broke them in for a breaking news segment. Obviously, so hard news Ericsson partnership. We're in the, actually former Ericsson booth. They're not even here, it's now the TelcoDR booth. But that's and then Open RAN again, Open Source. You got 5G, you got Open Source all happening. What's your take on this, as you're seeing this? >> Yeah, I think, you know, there's two big, and I talked about in my keynote this morning, there's two big technological changes that are happening in our industry simultaneously. And I don't think we could have had it--MWC 21 I certainly wanted to make it about the Public Cloud. I think I'm sort of successful in doing that. And I think the other piece is Open RAN, right? And I think these two big shifts are happening and I'm really thrilled about it. And so, yeah, we saw these two. >> I loved your keynote, we were here live Chloe was here filling in for Dave while Dave was going to do some research and getting some breaking stories. But you are on stage and, and we were talking, Chloe's like, these there's trillions of dollars, John on the table. And I was making the point, that the money's in the middle of the table and it's changing hands. If people don't watch it. And then you onstage said there's trillions of dollars. This is a real competitive shift with dollars on the table. And you've got cultural collision. You've got operators and builders trying to figure out, it feels like Dev Ops is coming in here. >> Yeah. >> I mean, what's the, what's the holistic vibe. What's the, what do you? >> Yeah, I think my message is about, we can use the software and specifically the software, the Public Cloud, to double your ARPU without massive CapEx expenditure. And I think the CSPs has always viewed to get the increase in ARPU, I got to build out the network, I got to spend a lot of money. And with these two technologies that require might be dropped. And then in exchange for doubling our ARPU, why not? We should do that absolutely. >> You know, your message has been pretty clear that you got to get on, on the wave. Got to ride the wave or become driftwood, as John said yesterday. And I think it's pretty, it's becoming pretty clear that that's the case for the Telcos. I feel like Danielle, that they entering this decade, perhaps with a little bit more humility than they have in the past. And then, you know, maybe, especially as it relates to developers, we're just talking about building out the Edge. We always talk about how developers are really going to be a key factor in the Edge and that's not a wheelhouse necessarily. But, obviously they're going to have to partner for that to have, they're going to have to embrace Cloud Native. I mean, it's pretty clear that your premise is right on. We'll see how long it takes, but if it, if they don't move fast, you know, what's going to happen. >> Well, I think you look at it from the enterprise's perspective. And we just heard Google talking about it. We need to provide a tech stack that the enterprises can write to. Now, historically they haven't had this opportunity. Historically that CSPs have provided it. Now you're going to be able to write against Google's tech stack. And that's something that is documented, it's available. There's developers out there that know it. And so I think that's the big opportunity. And this might be the, the big use case that they've been looking for with 5G and looking forward to 6G. And so it's a huge opportunity for CSPs to do that. >> I think that's an important point because you've got to place bets. And if I'm betting on Google or Amazon, Microsoft, okay, those are pretty safe bets, right? Those guys are going to be around. >> You think, I mean, they're like, no, don't trust the hyperscalers. And like, are you guys nuts? They're safe bets. >> Safe bets in terms of your investment in technology, now you've got to move fast. >> Yeah. >> That's the other piece of it. >> Yeah. >> You got to change your business model. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Well, you got to be in the right side of history too. I mean, I mean, what is trust actually really mean? Does Snowflake trust Amazon? It sure did to get them where they are, but now they're looking at other options. >> That is a great example, John. It really is, because there's a company that can move fast, but the same time they compete, but the same time they add incremental value. >> And so here you can see the narrative like, oh no, we're partnering, Telcos aren't bad. No one needs to die to bring in the new. Well containers do, will help them manage that operational legacy, but culturally, if they don't move, they're going to have an asset that'll get rolled up into a SPAC or some sort of private equity deal. And because the old model of building CapEx and extract rents is kind of shifting because the value's shifting. So to me, I think this is what we're watching still kind of unknown. Danielle, love to get your thoughts on this, because if the value shifts to services, which is a consumption model like cloud, >> Yeah. >> Then you can, don't have to try to extract the rents out of the CapEx or, what's your thought, I mean. >> Yeah, I don't think you need to own the entire stack to provide value. And I think that's where we are today in Telco, right. There, I mean, nuts and bolts of the stack, the servers, you know, the cabling, everything. And I'm like, stand on the shoulders of these amazing tech giants that have solved, you know, mega data centers, right? Huge data centers at scale, and just leverage their investment and for your own benefit and start to focus, and we heard Amol talking about it, starts to focus on your subscriber and driving a great experience for us, right, yeah. >> Well, you've talking about that many times that you exhibit, you're right. If the conversation has been, has to go beyond, okay, we're just connectivity. It's got to be going to be like, oh, it's $10 a month for roaming charges, ah great. >> Yeah. >> Tick that box. Right, it's those value added services that you're talking about. And it's an infinite number of those that can be developed. And that's where the partnerships come in, and creativity in the industry. It's just a blank piece of paper. >> Well, we, you know, everyone thinks Google knows everything about you, right? We've had the experience on our phone where they're serving up ads and you're like, how did it? >> Facebook does? >> Right, Facebook. But you know who knows more about us than, than Google or your mother even, your Telco. >> Yeah. >> You take your phone with you everywhere, right? And so it's time to start unlocking all of that knowledge and using it to provide a really great experience. >> And by the way, congratulations on the CEO to Totogi and the investment hundred million dollars. That's a game changer statement again, back to the billing and the there's a good, there's a whole new team, even all up and down the stack of solutions, great stuff. And I want to unpack that tomorrow. I want to hold that, we're going to meet tomorrow. I want to, I want to, leave that here. >> Stay in the data for a second, because you made the point before in your keynote as well. That, it's that it's the data that drives the value of these companies. Why is it that Apple, Amazon, Google, Facebook now trillion dollar valuations. >> Yeah. >> It's all about the data and the Telco's have the data, but they can't figure out how to turn that into valuation. >> I think there's two parts of the data problem, which is number one, the data is trapped in on-premise, siloed systems that are not open. You can't connect them, and you certainly do it without, and we talked about it, I think yesterday, you know, millions of dollars of expenditure. And I think the other piece that's really interesting is that it's not connected to a mechanism to get it out in a timely manner, right? This is data that's aging by the minute. And when it takes you weeks to get the insight , it's useless, right? And so to Totogi, we announced the launch of Totogi, I'll get a little to Totogi plug in there, right. Totogi is connecting that insight to the charger, to the engagement engine and getting it out to subscribers. I think that's the beginning of this connection. I think it's a hard problem to solve it would have been solved already. But I think the key is leveraging the Public Cloud to get your data out of on-premise and, and mashing it up against these great services that Google and Azure and Amazon provide to drive it into the hands of the subscriber, make it very actionable, very monetizeable right at the end, that's what they want. More ARPU, more revenue, right. And you know, we've heard some keynotes from GSMA yesterday, some big, big guys, you know, talking about how, you know, it's not fair that these other communication platforms are not regulated. You know, Telco is heavily regulated and they're like, it's not fair. And I'm like, yep, it's not fair. That's life, right? >> Yeah. >> Stop complaining about it and start treating your customers better. So they're happy to give you more money. >> Yeah, and I think that's the message about the assets too. But one thing I will say, this Mobile World Congress, is that we've been having a lot of fun here in CLOUD CITY. I have to ask you a personal question. Have you been having fun? You look great on the keynote. You have a spring to your step. CLOUD CITY is beautiful, spectacular here. >> Yeah. >> Give us some highlights, personal highlights from your trip so far. >> Well number one, I'm, I'm psyched that the keynote is delivered in and done. I mean, I think it takes my blood pressure down a bunch. You know, the spring in my step, I wore these fun little tennis shoes and that was really fun. But yeah, I'm having, I'm having, I think a lot of things, great conversations. Yes the attendance is reduced. You know, usually you see hundreds of people from the big group carriers, especially the European groups. And yeah the attendance is reduced, but the senior guys are here, right? The senior leadership teams are in the booth. We're having meetings, we're having amazing conversations. I think the last year we really did live a decade in one year. I think they woke up to the power of the Public Cloud. >> Yeah, the pandemic helped. >> I mean, there was no way that they got business done without cloud based tools. And I think the light bulb went off. I think I'm right in the right moment. It's Awesome. >> Do you think that, do you think that they'll think in there, like left money on the table because you look at the pandemic, there were three categories of companies, losers, people who held the line, struggled and then winners. >> Yeah. >> Big time tale wind, booming. Obviously the Zooms of the world. Telco's did well. They were up and running, business was good. You think they might've left some money on the table? They could have done more. >> Yeah, I think the ones that were, you know, people talk about digital transformation. We're digital Telco, we're digitally enabled. And I think the pandemic really tested this, right. Can you deliver a contactless SIM? Or do you need to go to a store, in person, to get to go pick it up? And I had a broken SIM during the pandemic. My provider made me go to the store and I'm like, is it even open? And so I heard other stories of Telcos that were very digitally enabled, right. They were using Uber to deliver sims, and all sorts of fun, crazy stuff and new ideas. And they were able to pivot. >> Agile. >> Right, agile. And so I think, I think that was a really big wake up call. >> Telemedicine booming. >> So If you were in a digital business during the pandemic. In general, you're out of business, maybe unless you were a Telco, but I think you're right. I think the light bulb went off. It was an aha moment. And they said, oh-oh, if we don't move. >> I mean, I am not kidding right. As an ex-CEO where I was trying to collect signatures on renewals, right. Here's a DocuSign, which for the world is like, duh. I mean, our school uses DocuSign. I had telcos that required an in-person signature, >> Facts. >> Right, in some country, once a month on Tuesday between 10 and 2. And I'm like, how are you doing business, like that? That's like the dark ages. >> Yeah, this is where the crypto guys got it right, with know your customer. >> Yeah, right. >> 'Cause they have the data. >> Well, they had to, they had to. >> Yeah. >> There's a lot of things that's going wrong on crypto, we don't want to, we could do a whole show on that. But Danielle great to have you drop by, obviously Bon Jovi's here. How did you get Bon Jovi? Huge fan, New Jersey boy, Patriot's fan. >> Yeah. >> Dave, we love him. >> Fantastic. >> Well, I mean, who doesn't love Bon Jovi, right? We knew we wanted a rocker, right. Rock and roll is all about challenging the status quo. That, I mean, since the beginning and that's what we're doing here, right. We're really challenging like the way things have been done in Telco. Kind of just shattering the glass ceiling in lots of different ways, right. Calling the old guys dinosaurs. I'm sure those guys love me, right. I mean, how much do they hate me right now? Or they're like that girl, oh, so. >> Well we are punk rock. They're rock and roll. >> Right, right. I mean, maybe we should have gotten The Clash, right. Black Flag, right. I'm a little bit older than you. >> Bon Jovi's good. >> Right, we'll go with Bon Jovi. >> We like both of them. >> Accessible, right. >> Once's more conservative rock and roll still edgy. >> Yeah, so really excited to get them here. I've met him before. And so hopefully he'll remember me. It's been a couple of years since I've seen him. So can't wait to connect with him again. I think we have Elon Musk coming up and that's going to be, it's always exciting to hear that guy talk, so yeah. >> Yeah, he's going to be inspiration he'll talk space, SpaceX, >> Oh yeah. >> And possibly Starlink. >> Talking about the edge. >> Starlink, right. >> Starlink. >> I mean, those guys are launching rockets and deploying satellites and I think that's really interesting for rural. For rural right in Telco, right. Being able to deploy very quickly in rural where the, maybe the cost, you know, per gig doesn't make sense. You know, the cost for deployment of tower, I think. I mean, that's an interesting idea right there, yeah. >> It's exciting, he's inspirational. I think a lot of people look at the younger generation coming in and saying why are we doing things? A lot of people are questioning and they see the cloud. They're saying, oh, A or B, why are we doing this? This is such an easier, better way. >> Yeah. >> I think eventually the generation shifts in time. >> It's coming. I'm so excited to be a part of it, yeah. >> Great, great leadership. And I want to say that you are real innovative, glad to have us here and presenting with you here. >> Awesome team. >> I'm excited to have you guys. We talked last night about how great this partnership is, so thank you so much, yeah. >> TheCUBE, theCUBE's rocking inside the CLOUD CITY. The streets of the CLOUD CITY are hustling and booming. >> Packed. >> Packed in here. All stuff, great stuff. Thanks for coming on. >> Yep, thanks so much. >> Bon Jovi is here, we got a shot of Bon Jovi. Do we have a screenshot of Bon Jovi? >> Yeah, there it is. >> There it is, yeah. >> Okay, he's about to come on stage and we're going to take a break here. We're going to take and send it back to Adam and the team in the studio. Thanks guys.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE Conversation. >> Well, welcome to theCUBE Conversation here in theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, your host. Got a great conversation with two great guests, going to explore the edge, what it means in terms of commercial, but also national security. And as the world goes digital, we're going to have that deep dive conversation around how it's all transforming. We've got Ki Lee, Vice President of Booz Allen's Digital Business. Ki, great to have you. John Pisano, Principal at Booz Allen's Digital Cloud Solutions. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on. >> And thanks for having us, John. >> So one of the most hottest topics, obviously besides cloud computing having the most refactoring impact on business and government and public sector has been the next phase of cloud growth and cloud scale, and that's really modern applications and consumer, and then here for national security and for governments here in the U.S. is military impact. And as digital transformation starts to go to the next level, you're starting to see the architectures emerge where the edge, the IoT edge, the industrial IoT edge, or any kind of edge concept, 5G is exploding, making that much more of a dense, more throughput for connectivity with wireless. You got Amazon with Snowball, Snowmobile, all kinds of ways to deploy technology, that's IT like and operational technologies. It's causing quite a cloud operational opportunity and disruption, so I want to get into it. Ki, let's start with you. I mean, we're looking at an architecture that's changing both commercial and public sector with the edge. What are the key considerations that you guys see as people have to really move fast in this new architecture of digital? >> Yeah, John, I think it's a great question. And if I could just share our observation on why we even started investing in edge. You mentioned the cloud, but as we've reflected upon kind of the history of IT, then you take a look from mainframes to desktops to servers to cloud to mobile and now IoT, what we observed was that industry investing in infrastructure led to kind of an evolution of IT, right? So as you mentioned, with industry spending billions on IoT and edge, we just feel that that's going to be the next evolution. If you take a look at, you mentioned 5G, I think 5G will be certainly an accelerator to edge because of the resilience, the lower latency and so forth. But taking a look at what's happening in space, you mentioned space earlier as well, right, and what Starlink is doing by putting satellites to actually provide transport into the space, we're thinking that that actually is going to be the next ubiquitous thing. Once transport becomes ubiquitous, just like cloud allows storage to be ubiquitous. We think that the next generation internet will be space-based. So when you think about it, connected, it won't be connected servers per se, it will be connected devices. >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> That's kind of some of the observations and why we've been really focusing on investing in edge. >> I want to come back to that piece around space and edge and bring it from a commercial and then also tactical architecture in a minute 'cause there's a lot to unpack there, role of open source, modern application development, software and hardware supply chains, all are core issues that are going to emerge. But I want to get with John real quick on cloud impact, because you think about 5G and the future of work or future of play, you've got people, right? So whether you're at a large concert like Coachella or a 49ers or Patriots game or Redskins game if you're in the D.C. area, you got people there, of congestion, and now you got devices now serving those people. And that's their play, people at work, whether it's a military operation, and you've got work, play, tactical edge things. How is cloud connecting? 'Cause this is like the edge has never been kind of an IT thing. It's been more of a bandwidth or either telco or something else operationally. What's the cloud at scale, cloud operations impact? >> Yeah, so if you think about how these systems are architected and you think about those considerations that Ki kind of touched on, a lot of what you have to think about now is what aspects of the application reside in the cloud, where you tend to be less constrained. And then how do you architect that application to move out towards the edge, right? So how do I tier my application? Ultimately, how do I move data and applications around the ecosystem? How do I need to evolve where my application stages things and how that data and those apps are moved to each of those different tiers? So when we build a lot of applications, especially if they're in the cloud, they're built with some of those common considerations of elasticity, scalability, all those things; whereas when you talk about congestion and disconnected operations, you lose a lot of those characteristics, and you have to kind of rethink that. >> Ki, let's get into the aspect you brought up, which is space. And then I was mentioning the tactical edge from a military standpoint. These are use cases of deployments, and in fact, this is how people have to work now. So you've got the future of work or play, and now you've got the situational deployments, whether it's a new tower of next to a stadium. We've all been at a game or somewhere or a concert where we only got five bars and no connectivity. So we know what that means. So now you have people congregating in work or play, and now you have a tactical deployment. What's the key things that you're seeing that it's going to help make that better? Are there any breakthroughs that you see that are possible? What's going on in your view? >> Yeah, I mean, I think what's enabling all of this, again, one is transport, right? So whether it's 5G to increase the speed and decrease the latency, whether it's things like Starlink with making transport and comms ubiquitous, that tied with the fact that ships continue to get smaller and faster, right? And when you're thinking about tactical edge, those devices have limited size, weight, power conditions and constraints. And so the software that goes on them has to be just as lightweight. And that's why we've actually partnered with SUSE and what they've done with K3s to do that. So I think those are some of the enabling technologies out there. John, as you've kind of alluded to it, there are additional challenges as we think about it. We're not, it's not a simple transition and monetization here, but again, we think that this will be the next major disruption. >> What do you guys think, John, if you don't mind weighing in too on this as modern application development happens, we just were covering CloudNativeCon and KubeCon, DockerCon, containers are very popular. Kubernetes is becoming super great. As you look at the telco landscape where we're kind of converging this edge, it has to be commercially enterprise grade. It has to have that transit and transport that's intelligent and all these new things. How does open source fit into all this? Because we're seeing open source becoming very reliable, more people are contributing to open source. How does that impact the edge in your opinion? >> So from my perspective, I think it's helping accelerate things that traditionally maybe may have been stuck in the traditional proprietary software confines. So within our mindset at Booz Allen, we were very focused on open architecture, open based systems, which open source obviously is an aspect of that. So how do you create systems that can easily interface with each other to exchange data, and how do you leverage tools that are available in the open source community to do that? So containerization is a big drive that is really going throughout the open source community. And there's just a number of other tools, whether it's tools that are used to provide basic services like how do I move code through a pipeline all the way through? How do I do just basic hardening and security checking of my capabilities? Historically, those have tend to be closed source type apps, whereas today you've got a very broad community that's able to very quickly provide and develop capabilities and push it out to a community that then continues to adapt and add to it or grow that library of stuff. >> Yeah, and then we've got trends like Open RAN. I saw some Ground Station for the AWS. You're starting to see Starlink, you mentioned. You're bringing connectivity to the masses. What is that going to do for operators? Because remember, security is a huge issue. We talk about security all the time. Where does that kind of come in? Because now you're really OT, which has been very purpose-built kind devices in the old IoT world. As the new IoT and the edge develop, you're going to need to have intelligence. You're going to be data-driven. There is an open source impact key. So, how, if I'm a senior executive, how do I get my arms around this? I really need to think this through because the security risks alone could be more penetration areas, more surface area. >> Right. That's a great question. And let me just address kind of the value to the clients and the end users in the digital battlefield as our warriors to increase survivability and lethality. At the end of the day from a mission perspective, we know we believe that time's a weapon. So reducing any latency in that kind of observe, orient, decide, act OODA loop is value to the war fighter. In terms of your question on how to think about this, John, you're spot on. I mean, as I've mentioned before, there are various different challenges, one, being the cyber aspect of it. We are absolutely going to be increasing our attack surface when you think about putting processing on edge devices. There are other factors too, non-technical that we've been thinking about s we've tried to kind of engender and kind of move to this kind of edge open ecosystem where we can kind of plug and play, reuse, all kind of taking the same concepts of the open-source community and open architectures. But other things that we've considered, one, workforce. As you mentioned before, when you think about these embedded systems and so forth, there aren't that many embedded engineers out there. But there is a workforce that are digital and software engineers that are trained. So how do we actually create an abstraction layer that we can leverage that workforce and not be limited by some of the constraints of the embedded engineers out there? The other thing is what we've, in talking with several colleagues, clients, partners, what people aren't thinking about is actually when you start putting software on these edge devices in the billions, the total cost of ownership. How do you maintain an enterprise that potentially consists of billions of devices? So extending the standard kind of DevSecOps that we move to automate CI/CD to a cloud, how do we move it from cloud to jet? That's kind of what we say. How do we move DevSecOps to automate secure containers all the way to the edge devices to mitigate some of those total cost of ownership challenges. >> It's interesting, as you have software defined, this embedded system discussion is hugely relevant and important because when you have software defined, you've got to be faster in the deployment of these devices. You need security, 'cause remember, supply chain on the hardware side and software in that too. >> Absolutely. >> So if you're going to have a serviceability model where you have to shift left, as they say, you got to be at the point of CI/CD flows, you need to be having security at the time of coding. So all these paradigms are new in Day-2 operations. I call it Day-0 operations 'cause it should be in everyday too. >> Yep. Absolutely. >> But you've got to service these things. So software supply chain becomes a very interesting conversation. It's a new one that we're having on theCUBE and in the industry Software supply chain is a superly relevant important topic because now you've got to interface it, not just with other software, but hardware. How do you service devices in space? You can't send a break/fix person in space. (chuckles) Maybe you will soon, but again, this brings up a whole set of issues. >> No, so I think it's certainly, I don't think anyone has the answers. We sure don't have all the answers but we're very optimistic. If you take a look at what's going on within the U.S. Air Force and what the Chief Software Officer Nic Chaillan and his team, and we're a supporter of this and a plankowner of Platform One. They were ahead of the curve in kind of commoditizing some of these DevSecOps principles in partnership with the DoD CIO and that shift left concept. They've got a certified and accredited platform that provides that DevSecOps. They have an entire repository in the Iron Bank that allows for hardened containers and reciprocity. All those things are value to the mission and around the edge because those are all accelerators. I think there's an opportunity to leverage industry kind of best practices as well and patterns there. You kind of touched upon this, John, but these devices honestly just become firmware. The software is just, if the devices themselves just become firmware , you can just put over the wire updates onto them. So I'm optimistic. I think all the piece parts are taking place across industry and in the government. And I think we're primed to kind of move into this next evolution. >> Yeah. And it's also some collaboration. What I like about, why I'm bringing up the open source angle and I think this is where I think the major focus will shift to, and I want to get your reaction to it is because open source is seeing a lot more collaboration. You mentioned some of the embedded devices. Some people are saying, this is the weakest link in the supply chain, and it can be shored up pretty quickly. But there's other data, other collective intelligence that you can get from sharing data, for instance, which hasn't really been a best practice in the cybersecurity industry. So now open source, it's all been about sharing, right? So you got the confluence of these worlds colliding, all aspects of culture and Dev and Sec and Ops and engineering all coming together. John, what's your reaction to that? Because this is a big topic. >> Yeah, so it's providing a level of transparency that historically we've not seen, right? So in that community, having those pipelines, the results of what's coming out of it, it's allowing anyone in that life cycle or that supply chain to look at it, see the state of it, and make a decision on, is this a risk I'm willing to take or not? Or am I willing to invest and personally contribute back to the community to address that because it's important to me and it's likely going to be important to some of the others that are using it? So I think it's critical, and it's enabling that acceleration and shift that I talked about, that now that everybody can see it, look inside of it, understand the state of it, contribute to it, it's allowing us to break down some of the barriers that Ki talked about. And it reinforces that excitement that we're seeing now. That community is enabling us to move faster and do things that maybe historically we've not been able to do. >> Ki, I'd love to get your thoughts. You mentioned battlefield, and I've been covering a lot of the tactical edge around the DOD's work. You mentioned about the military on the Air Force side, Platform One, I believe, was from the Air Force work that they've done, all cloud native kind of directions. But when you talk about a war field, you talk about connectivity. I mean, who controls the DNS in Taiwan, or who controls the DNS in Korea? I mean, we have to deploy, you've got to stand up infrastructure. How about agility? I mean, tactical command and control operations, this has got to be really well done. So this is not a trivial thing. >> No. >> How are you seeing this translate into the edge innovation area? (laughs) >> It's certainly not a trivial thing, but I think, again, I'm encouraged by how government and industry are partnering up. There's a vision set around this joint all domain command control, JADC2. And then all the services are getting behind that, are looking into that, and this vision of this military, internet of military things. And I think the key thing there, John, as you mentioned, it's not just the connected of the sensors, which requires the transport again, but also they have to be interoperable. So you can have a bunch of sensors and platforms out there, they may be connected, but if they can't speak to one another in a common language, that kind of defeats the purpose and the mission value of that sensor or shooter kind of paradigm that we've been striving for for ages. So you're right on. I mean, this is not a trivial thing, but I think over history we've learned quite a bit. Technology and innovation is happening at just an amazing rate where things are coming out in months as opposed to decades as before. I agree, not trivial, but again, I think there are all the piece parts in place and being put into place. >> I think you mentioned earlier that the personnel, the people, the engineers that are out there, not enough, more of them coming in. I think now the appetite and the provocative nature of this shift in tech is going to attract a lot of people because the old adage is these are hard problems attracts great people. You got in new engineering, SRE like scale engineering. You have software development, that's changing, becoming much more robust and more science-driven. You don't have to be just a coder as a software engineer. You could be coming at it from any angle. So there's a lot more opportunities from a personnel standpoint now to attract great people, and there's real hard problems to solve, not just security. >> Absolutely. Definitely. I agree with that 100%. I would also contest that it's an opportunity for innovators. We've been thinking about this for some time, and we think there's absolute value from various different use cases that we've identified, digital battlefield, force protection, disaster recovery, and so forth. But there are use cases that we probably haven't even thought about, even from a commercial perspective. So I think there's going to be an opportunity just like the internet back in the mid '90s for us to kind of innovate based on this new kind of edge environment. >> It's a revolution. New leadership, new brands are going to emerge, new paradigms, new workflows, new operations, clearly great stuff. I want to thank you guys for coming on. I also want to thank Rancher Labs for sponsoring this conversation. Without their support, we wouldn't be here. And now they were acquired by SUSE. We've covered their event with theCUBE virtual last year. What's the connection with those guys? Can you guys take a minute to explain the relationship with SUSE and Rancher? >> Yeah. So it's actually it's fortuitous. And I think we just, we got lucky. There's two overall aspects of it. First of all, we are both, we partner on the Platform One basic ordering agreement. So just there we had a common mentality of DevSecOps. And so there was a good partnership there, but then when we thought about we're engaging it from an edge perspective, the K3s, right? I mean, they're a leader from a container perspective obviously, but the fact that they are innovators around K3s to reduce that software footprint, which is required on these edge devices, we kind of got a twofer there in that partnership. >> John, any comment on your end? >> Yeah, I would just amplify, the K3s aspects in leveraging the containers, a lot of what we've seen success in when you look at what's going on, especially on that tactical edge around enabling capabilities, containers, and the portability it provides makes it very easy for us to interface and integrate a lot of different sensors to close the OODA loop to whoever is wearing or operating that a piece of equipment that the software is running on. >> Awesome, I'd love to continue the conversation on space and the edge and super great conversation to have you guys on. Really appreciate it. I do want to ask you guys about the innovation and the opportunities of this new shift that's happening as the next big thing is coming quickly. And it's here on us and that's cloud, I call it cloud 2.0, the cloud scale, modern software development environment, edge with 5G changing the game. Ki, I completely agree with you. And I think this is where people are focusing their attention from startups to companies that are transforming and re-pivoting or refactoring their existing assets to be positioned. And you're starting to see clear winners and losers. There's a pattern emerging. You got to be in the cloud, you got to be leveraging data, you got to be horizontally scalable, but you got to have AI machine learning in there with modern software practices that are secure. That's the playbook. Some people are making it. Some people are not getting there. So I'd ask you guys, as telcos become super important and the ability to be a telco now, we just mentioned standing up a tactical edge, for instance. Launching a satellite, a couple of hundred K, you can launch a CubeSat. That could be good and bad. So the telco business is changing radically. Cloud, telco cloud is emerging as an edge phenomenon with 5G, certainly business commercial benefits more than consumer. How do you guys see the innovation and disruption happening with telco? >> As we think through cloud to edge, one thing that we realize, because our definition of edge, John, was actually at the point of data collection on the sensor themselves. Others' definition of edge is we're a little bit further back, what we call it the edge of the IT enterprise. But as we look at this, we realize that you needed this kind of multi echelon environment from your cloud to your tactical clouds where you can do some processing and then at the edge of themselves. Really at the end of the day, it's all about, I think, data, right? I mean, everything we're talking about, it's still all about the data, right? The AI needs the data, the telco is transporting the data. And so I think if you think about it from a data perspective in relationship to the telcos, one, edge will actually enable a very different paradigm and a distributed paradigm for data processing. So, hey, instead of bringing the data to some central cloud which takes bandwidth off your telcos, push the products to the data. So mitigate what's actually being sent over those telco lines to increase the efficiencies of them. So I think at the end of the day, the telcos are going to have a pretty big component to this, even from space down to ground station, how that works. So the network of these telcos, I think, are just going to expand. >> John, what's your perspective? I mean, startups are coming out. The scalability, speed of innovation is a big factor. The old telco days had, I mean, months and years, new towers go up and now you got a backbone. It's kind of a slow glacier pace. Now it's under siege with rapid innovation. >> Yeah, so I definitely echo the sentiments that Ki would have, but I would also, if we go back and think about the digital battle space and what we've talked about, faster speeds being available in places it's not been before is great. However, when you think about facing an adversary that's a near-peer threat, the first thing they're going to do is make it contested, congested, and you have to be able to survive. While yes, the pace of innovation is absolutely pushing comms to places we've not had it before, we have to be mindful to not get complacent and over-rely on it, assuming it'll always be there. 'Cause I know in my experience wearing the uniform, and even if I'm up against an adversary, that's the first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to do whatever I can to disrupt your ability to communicate. So how do you take it down to that lowest level and still make that squad, the platoon, whatever that structure is, continue survivable and lethal. So that's something I think, as we look at the innovations, we need to be mindful of that. So when I talk about how do you architect it? What services do you use? Those are all those things that you have to think about. What if I lose it at this echelon? How do I continue the mission? >> Yeah, it's interesting. And if you look at how companies have been procuring and consuming technology, Ki, it's been like siloed. "Okay, we've got a workplace workforce project, and we have the tactical edge, and we have the siloed IT solution," when really work and play, whether it's work here in John's example, is the war fighter. And so his concern is safety, his life and protection. >> Yeah. >> The other department has to manage the comms, (laughs) and so they have to have countermeasures and contingencies ready to go. So all this is, they all integrate it now. It's not like one department. It's like it's together. >> Yeah. John, I love what you just said. I mean, we have to get away from this siloed thinking not only within a single organization, but across the enterprise. From a digital battlefield perspective, it's a joint fight, so even across these enterprise of enterprises, So I think you're spot on. We have to look horizontally. We have to integrate, we have to inter-operate, and by doing that, that's where the innovation is also going to be accelerated too, not reinventing the wheel. >> Yeah, and I think the infrastructure edge is so key. It's going to be very interesting to see how the existing incumbents can handle themselves. Obviously the towers are important. 5G obviously, that's more deployments, not as centralized in terms of the spectrum. It's more dense. It's going to create more connectivity options. How do you guys see that impacting? Because certainly more gear, like obviously not the centralized tower, from a backhaul standpoint but now the edge, the radios themselves, the wireless transit is key. That's the real edge here. How do you guys see that evolving? >> We're seeing a lot of innovations actually through small companies who are really focused on very specific niche problems. I think it's a great starting point because what they're doing is showing the art of the possible. Because again, we're in a different environment now. There's different rules. There's different capabilities. But then we're also seeing, you mentioned earlier on, some of the larger companies, the Amazons, the Microsofts, also investing as well. So I think the merge of the, you know, or the unconstrained or the possible by these small companies that are just kind of driving innovations supported by the maturity and the heft of these large companies who are building out these hardened kind of capabilities, they're going to converge at some point. And that's where I think we're going to get further innovation. >> Well, I really appreciate you guys taking the time. Final question for you guys, as people are watching this, a lot of smart executives and teams are coming together to kind of put the battle plans together for their companies as they transition from old to this new way, which is clearly cloud-scale, role of data. We hit out all the key points I think here. As they start to think about architecture and how they deploy their resources, this becomes now the new boardroom conversation that trickles down and includes everyone, including the developers. The developers are now going to be on the front lines. Mid-level managers are going to be integrated in as well. It's a group conversation. What are some of the advice that you would give to folks who are in this mode of planning architecture, trying to be positioned to come out of this pandemic with a massive growth opportunity and to be on the right side of history? What's your advice? >> It's such a great question. So I think you touched upon it. One is take the holistic approach. You mentioned architectures a couple of times, and I think that's critical. Understanding how your edge architectures will let you connect with your cloud architecture so that they're not disjointed, they're not siloed. They're interoperable, they integrate. So you're taking that enterprise approach. I think the second thing is be patient. It took us some time to really kind of, and we've been looking at this for about three years now. And we were very intentional in assessing the landscape, how people were discussing around edge and kind of pulling that all together. But it took us some time to even figure it out, hey, what are the use cases? How can we actually apply this and get some ROI and value out for our clients? So being a little bit patient in thinking through kind of how we can leverage this and potentially be a disruptor. >> John, your thoughts on advice to people watching as they try to put the right plans together to be positioned and not foreclose any future value. >> Yeah, absolutely. So in addition to the points that Ki raised, I would, number one, amplify the fact of recognize that you're going to have a hybrid environment of legacy and modern capabilities. And in addition to thinking open architectures and whatnot, think about your culture, the people, your processes, your techniques and whatnot, and your governance. How do you make decisions when it needs to be closed versus open? Where do you invest in the workforce? What decisions are you going to make in your architecture that drive that hybrid world that you're going to live in? All those recipes, patience, open, all that, that I think we often overlook the cultural people aspect of upskilling. This is a very different way of thinking on modern software delivery. How do you go through this lifecycle? How's security embedded? So making sure that's part of that boardroom conversation I think is key. >> John Pisano, Principal at Booz Allen Digital Cloud Solutions, thanks for sharing that great insight. Ki Lee, Vice President at Booz Allen Digital Business. Gentlemen, great conversation. Thanks for that insight. And I think people watching are going to probably learn a lot on how to evaluate startups to how they put their architecture together. So I really appreciate the insight and commentary. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, John. >> Okay. I'm John Furrier. This is theCUBE Conversation. Thanks for watching. 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(soft music) >> Hi everyone. And welcome to this special cube conversation and kickoff preview of the Mobile World Congress Barcelona event. It's a physical event that's going to be taking place in person. It will probably be the first hybrid big event 68 days until the June 28th kickoff. You might've heard TelcoDr, Telco disruptor. Is on a mission to move the telco industry to the public cloud. And, and, and it's been taken of one of the biggest spaces this year from Erickson is the big story everyone's talking about. And of course the CUBE is excited to be there and broadcast and be a partner with TelcoDr. So I'm excited to bring on the founder and CEO of TelcoDr. Danielle Royston. Danielle great to see you. Thanks for coming on for this Mobile World Congress preview. >> Thank you so much for having me. I'm psyched to talk to you about this, its going to be great. >> So Erickson always has the biggest booth 14 years. You're disrupting the Barcelona not people's shorts going to be on or off. It's officially on, it's happening. And there's going to be a physical event we're coming out of COVID still a risky move. It's going to be a big hybrid event. It's going to be in person. Tell us the story. How did you guys come out of nowhere a disruptor take the biggest real estate in the place and turn it into a community event. A news event, immediate event, everything tell us. >> Yeah, well, you know, I think it was March 9th a little over a month ago. Ericsson announced that they were pulling out of MWC and it's very analogous to what happened in 2020. They were one of the first vendors to bail as well. And it kind of started this like tidal wave of people saying, can't do it. And I think the distinction now is that, that was at the beginning of COVID. There was a lot of unknowns, you know, is it coming? Is it not? Is it safe? Is it not? We're now, you know, year 50 to three, four months into it. I think that when you look at where we are now cases are trending down. The vaccine is up. And I think the legacy players were sort of backward looking they're like, this is a repeat of 2020. We're going to, it's not safe to go. We're going to pull out. And I'm like with a hundred days to go. And the vaccine ramping, I think I see it a different way. I think there's a really big opportunity. John Hoffman, CEO of the GSMA had put out a two page missive on LinkedIn where he was personally responding to questions about how serious they were about making sure that the event was safe and could be held. And my, my view was this is going to happen. And with Ericsson pulling out, I mean this is hollowed ground. I mean, this is, you know, a, you know, massively successful company that has customers literally trained like Skinner's chickens to come to the same spot every year. And now I get to, you know, put out my shingle right there and say welcome and show them the future , right? And instead of the legacy past and all the normal rhetoric that you hear from those you know, sort of dinosaurs, Ericsson and Nokia now they're going to hear about the public cloud. And I'm really excited for this opportunity. I think the ROI on this event is instant. And so it was, it was a pretty easy decision. I think I thought about it for about 30 seconds. >> It's a real bold move. And it's, again, it's a risk that pays off if it happens, if it doesn't, you know, you didn't happen but you're like, it's like a, it's like the the startups that put a Superbowl commercial for the first time, it's a big hit and it's a big gamble that pays off huge. Take us through, I heard, how did it all happen? Did you just wake up and saw it was open? How do you know that it was open? Was it like, does the email go out, say hey I've got this huge space for >> Well, I mean, it was big news. It was big news in the industry that they were pulling out and all the journalists were like, Oh, here we go again. You know, everyone's going to bail, who who's next right? And, and everyone was sort of like building that sort of negative momentum energy. And I'm like, we got to squash this. So I put out a tweet on Twitter. I mean, I'm not the most followed person but I'm kind of known in telco. And I was like, hey GSMA, I'll take over the booth. And I don't think people even liked my tweet, right? Like no likes no retweets. I reached out to a couple of journalists. I'm like, let's do an interview. Let's do a story. Everyone's like, we'll have you on the podcast like in a month, I'm like what?! So, so when John Hoffman had put out that letter I had connected to him. And so I was like, Oh, I'm connected to the CEO of the GSMA. So I went out on LinkedIn and I referenced the story and I said, John Hoffman, I'll take over the booth. And I think about 30 minutes later he responded and said, let's do it. And I said, great, who do I talk to? And I was in touch with someone within a couple of hours. And I think we put the whole deal together in 48. And I think wrote the press release and announced it on Friday. So happened on Tuesday the ninth, announced by that Friday. And I really, I was like, GSMA, we've got to get this out. And we got to stop the negative momentum of the show and get people to realize it's going to be different in June. This is going to happen. Let's go do it. And so I think they are they're psyched that I stepped into the booth it's big booth it's 65,000 square feet, 6,000 square meters for for the rest of the World that use it, the metric system. And I mean, that's huge. I mean, that's the size of a professional pitch in a in a football field, a soccer field. That's a one and a half football fields. It's, it's a ton of space. It's a ton of space pull off. >> I think what's interesting is there's a points out that this new business model of being connected you were on LinkedIn, you connect to them you get a deal done so fast. This is how this is the direct to consumer as a start-up you're literally took over the primo space the best space in the area. So congratulations. And, and the other thing that's notable and why I'm excited to talk to you is that this kind of sets the table for the first global what I call hybrid event. This will probably be a cornerstone case study in and of itself because we're still kind of coming out of the pandemic. People are getting vaccinated. People want to fly. They want to get out of the house, were partnering with the CUBE and the CUBE 365 platform. And, you know, we'd love hybrid. We'd love doing events, theCUBE that's what we do with video. Now, we're going to do a partnership with you to create this hybrid experience. What can people and guests who come to Barcelona or watch remotely expect? >> Yeah, so I think there's a couple of experiences that we're trying to drive in the booth. I think obviously demonstrations, you know I can't fill 65,000 square feet on my own. I'm a startup small company. And so I am inviting like-minded forward thinking companies to join me in the booth. I'm, I'm paying for it providing a turnkey experience for those vendors. And so I think what we have in common is we're thinking about future technologies, like open ran on the network side and obviously public cloud which is a big part of my message. And so first and foremost, foremost, there's, you know come and see the companies that are driving the change the new technologies that are out there and what's available for, for carriers to start to adopt and think about. MWC is a meeting intensive event. Deals are done at this show. In 2019, I think the stat is $65 billion of deals were put together at the show. And so a big component of the booth will be a place for executives to come together and have private conversations. And so we're going to have that. So that's going to be a big piece of it. And I think the third part is driving education and thought leadership. And so there's going to be a whole, you know, talk track right? Tech topics, business topics customer case studies involve the hyperscalers and really start to educate the telco community around these new technologies. But there'll be shorter talks. They won't be like hour long keynotes. We're talking 15, 20 minutes. And I think one thing that we're going to do with you as you were just talking about with theCUBE is, you know MWC was the first big show to have to cancel with COVID I think in 2019, sorry, 2020, the the dates it's always the last Monday in February and and the rest of that week. And so that's like right at the beginning of that of the COVID stuff, Italy was just starting to take off. So it was one of the first shows that had to make a big call and decide to cancel, which they did. This is going to be one of the first shows that comes back online, post COVID right? And so I don't think things just snap back to the way that they used to be. I don't think we, as consumers are going to snap back to the way that we operating we're now used to being able to get curbside delivery from any restaurant in the city, right. I mean, it's just, it's just a sort of a different expectation. And so partnering with theCUBE, we really want to provide an experience that brings the virtual people into the booth. Typically in events like this you really have to be there to see it boosts are kind of like unveiled the day of the show. What's going on. One thing I'm trying to do is really educate people about what you can expect. What can you see? This is what it's going to look like. And so we're going to start to share some pictures of the booth of, of, you know, what it looks like. Number one, to drive excitement with the partners that are coming, right. Like you're going to be part of something really, really fabulous. I think number two attendees can wait, I don't know week of to make the decision to go. And so maybe if COVID continues to trend down and vaccines are, are picking up steam, maybe they're like it's safe for me to go and I want to go be a part of that. But I think from here on out we're going to have sort of that virtual experience. It's always going to be part of shows. And so we're going to experiment with you guys. We're going to have a live streaming event over the course of the, you know, all MWC. It's going to be a way for people who are unable to travel or, you know, can't afford it. COVID or whatever, see what's going on in the booth. And it's going to be everything from listen to a talk to watch what you guys are typically famous for, your awesome interviews. We're going to have a man on the street, you know, like you know, we're here at, at a demo station, take us through your little demo. We're going to have telepresence robots that people can reserve. And, you know, cruise to the booth, the robot can go to a talk. The robot can watch on this streaming thing the robot can go to a demo. The robot can go to a meeting and it's controlled by the the virtual attendees and so experimenting, right? Like how do we make this great for virtual people? How do we make the virtual people feel part of the physical? How do the physical people feel? The virtual people that are attending and really just make it feel like a community of both. So really excited >> That's super awesome. And I think one of the, first of all, thank you for having paying for everyone and including theCUBE in that but I think this speaks to the ecosystem of open you're bringing, you're creating an open ecosystem. And I think that is a huge thing. So for people who are at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona this is going to be a nice, safe place to hang space as well as get deals done and to be comfortable doing media center, we'll get you on the digital TV, but also you're also designing the first what I call the first hybrid experience not just having people, having on-demand videos on their website, connecting Barcelona with other parts of the World, with meetings and stories and content. I think that to me is going to be a great experiment slash upgrade. We'll see, we'll get to see it. >> Well, it was really, I mean, we all lived through 2020. I mean, some of the shows went on AWS's re-invent happened. Google did like a crazy nine week program. It's very lonely to participate in those virtual events right. You know, you kind of log on by herself. No, one's really tweeting about it. You're watching, you know, an event the event is great, but it was really lonely. And so, you know, and I think what people love about the physical events is we're together and we're networking and we're meeting people. And so, you know, I think continue to evolve that experience so that virtual is not as lonely. So we'll see, we'll see how it goes. >> No, I've got to say your, your vision is really aligned with us and others that are in this open innovation World. Because if you look at like theCUBE physical went away, we had no events. We did Q virtual, a new brand. It wasn't a pivot. It was an extension, a line extension of theCUBE. Now theCUBES coming back to the physical. We're going to bring that cube virtual to connect everybody. So this is it. And it just amplifies the value of the physical event. So if done right, is so much cooler. So, so that's cool. And what I want to ask you though on the physical side to kind of bring it back to physical is there's still going to be keynotes. There's still going to be talks at Mobile World Congress. And so I saw that schedule and I just saw last week GSMA announced you're going to be doing a keynote speech. That's amazing. So how did that happen? So give us the lowdown on the keynote that you're doing. >> I'm sure the entire industry is like that happened. And it probably has something to do with the back that I have one of the biggest booths at the space. I always, you know, put in a request to speak. I feel that I have really exciting message to share with the industry. Over the last I guess it's been 9 or 10 months. I really been trying to amplify, amplify my voice. I have a podcast, I have a newsletter I'm talking to execs. I have a list that I literally go down one by one stalking each executive of like have I talked to them like how I told them about like the power of the public cloud. And so I am super thankful that I have this opportunity to spread that this message and I'm, I'm planning a really epic talk, just I really want to shake the industry. And this is, this is my opportunity, right? This is my opportunity to stand on the biggest stage in our industry. And command a presence and send out my message. And I'm absolutely thrilled to go do it. And I hope I crush it. I hope it's like a mic drop experience and can't wait to do it. >> Well, we're looking forward to covering it. And we love the open vision. We love the idea of public cloud and the enablement and the disruption, because just like you got the deal so fast, you can move fast with modern applications with the cloud moving at cloud scale, complete content, game changer, so great stuff. So totally applaud that looking forward to, and we're we're here to cheer you on and, and and ask the tough questions. I do want to get to on Twitter yesterday though, you put out on tweetstorm on Twitter, about the plans kind of teasing out the booth. How you going to plan to build the booth, are you worried that you're opening up too much of the kimono here and opened up putting too much on the table because it's usually a secret Mobile World Congress is supposed to be secret, not publicly out there. What, what's the, you know >> Well, I mean, I think this is just a little bit of a change has happened post COVID, right. You know, people usually build their booth in and don't reveal it until the first day of the show. And it's kind of like this excitement to go see what is there, what's their big message. And what's the big reveal. And there's always fun stuff. I think this year is a little bit different. So at first, like I said, at first big event back. I think I need to create a little bit of excitement for people who are going and maybe entice people that maybe you should think about coming. I realize this is a super personal decision, right? It depends on where you are and the country and your, your health and your status. But, but if you can do it I want people to know that you're going to miss out. It's going to be super fun. So, um, so yeah. >> Well, let's take it. Let's take a look at the booth though. And that's why my next question, I want to see I know we have guys, do we have that, rendering, let's pull that up and let's talk this through. Let's go look at the rendering. So you can see here on the screen, take us through this. >> Yeah. So what we want to do is give the sense of, of cloud city, right? And that's what we're calling this space in cloud cities. There's in a city there's outdoor space. Like you see here, and then there's in indoor space. And indoors is for you where you work, where you buy, where you meet. And so you can see here on the left, the demo stations that would have different vendors displaying you know, and it kind of, it goes way back. I mean, what we're feeling like I said is like a football field, an American football field and the half or a European football field a pitch it's pretty, it's pretty extensive. And so we think we're going to have, I don't know, 20 30 vendors showing their, their different software. I think we're, we're scheduling or planning for about 24 different meeting rooms that we can schedule all COVID safe with the, with the space requirements in there, but on the out in that outdoor space, it would be where you learn right. The education and then I think we're going to have this fabulous booth for the, for theCUBE. It's going to look, It's just so amazing with the backdrop of this amazing building. And, you know, I think I underappreciated or didn't really realize, you know, how devastated the both the event planning industry has been from COVID as well as construction. You know, obviously when events were shut down these companies had to lay off thousands of workers. Some of the big firms have laid off 50% of their workforce. And those people, you know they didn't just go home and sit around. They, they had to come up with a livelihood and this people have pivoted into another job. And they're not really, I mean events aren't really back yet. So some of these firms are shrunk. You know, the manpower is, is severely reduced. But then I think on the other side is and you can see this in just housing construction. There's a lumber shortage, there's a shortage of materials. And so everything that we source for the booth pretty much has to come from Spain. And so when we look at the booth, you know, we have, we have a pretty significant ceiling. Well, it looks like the roof of the building. It's an engineering feat to do. That we're still working through the sure. Someone with a protractor is doing lots of math. You know, the glass, we have those huge beautiful glass spans in the front getting a glass that spans that height. I think it's, I think it's 18 feet. It's six meters tall. That's going to be hard things like the flooring. I want to have like hardwood, laminate flooring. So it looks like hardwood floors. Don't know if we can find them right there. Like, why don't you do carpet? I'm like, can you just check one more vendor? I really want my floor. So, so we'll see how it goes. And yeah, I, I think that sharing this plan, the trials and tribulations, like how can this small startup, right? That usually, you know, take over a space that usually takes nine months to plan, right? Who is this girl? What is she doing? How are they going to pull this off? You know, I think it's like, grab your popcorn and watch the train wreck or, you know, hero's journey. We get it done. >> Well, people are on clubhouse. They're bored, they want to get out. I think this is a case study. Mobile World Congress has a huge economic impact for the, as a show it's got its own little economy built around it. Impacts the, the country of Spain in Barcelona, the city, a great city. People love it. And so it certainly is notable and newsworthy. We will be following that story. I have to ask you more of a, kind of a tactical question. If you don't mind, while I have you here, can you talk about some of the vendors that are coming and the kinds of talks you're going to have inside the booth and and how do people get involved? You mentioned it's open to people who love open ran and open public cloud, open technologies. I mean, that's pretty much everybody that's cool and relevant, which is like almost the whole World now. So like, is it going to be a space, is there a criteria? How do people get involved? What's the collaboration formula. >> Yeah, no. I had been working on putting together a list of potential vendors. You'd be surprised, not everyone is, is as bullish as I am on the public cloud. And so there was a little bit of a filtering criteria, but otherwise anyone can come right enterprise software vendors in telco where their primary customer is a communications service provider. That's their software runs on the public cloud come on in, right. People using open man. And it's still a little sort of small band of cohorts that are really trying to drive this new technology forward. And, and they're growing up, going up against some of the biggest companies in telco, right? They're going up against Huawei. They're going up against Ericcson. Both those guys are, are very anti and then not really pro open rank because it's hugely disruptive to their business. And so, you know I'm pretty sure those guys are not psyched to see open ran you know, you know, become a thing in telco. And so it's really sort of about disruptive technologies that are that are in the, in the booth. And so, yeah, I'm paying for the space. I'm paying for the, build-out bring your demos bring your people, come with your marketing message and and let's, and let's build a community. And so we're talking to open ran vendors like Mavenir. Which is a pretty big name in the open ran, open ran space. I've been talking with parallel wireless and LTO star. Those are also great players, software vendors like Totogi, which is a talk that I did a little over a month ago about this new startup that has a web-scale charger that they're trying to put out there. Aria is another company that I'm really familiar with that has some cloud for software and then little tiny startups like Zquence, and some other up-and-comers that no one's heard of. So we're really excited to invite them into the booth. I've been secretly stalking Elon, Elon Musk and Starlink and SpaceX to be a part of it. And we'll see, right. I'm kind of, you know, using Twitter and whatever I can to, to reach out and see if they want to be a part of it. But yeah, it's kind of really open arms, not really excluded. >> Oh, Elon, Elon is very disruptive and you know, he reached out on, you can reach out to him on Twitter. He's accessible. I mean, you've got to break through, but he is got this antenna up for innovators. People who think differently. They love people who break down walls and markets floor open wins. I mean, we, we know there's a history we've been covering it. I've been involved in my career. People who bet against open, always lose it's happened in every single wave of innovation. So Elons gettable, lets get him. >> Who doesn't love Elon Musk. I mean, I think some people don't, I love him, he's my hero. I model a lot of the things that I do around, around his, his approach, his vision, right, 20 years ago or close to 20 years ago, 2003 he said he was going to put people on Mars. And I think people laughed at him for being like the PayPal guy and this guy's crazy. But every year he makes progress against his goals, right. We have a real landable rocket. He's doing a manned mission this week, a second man mission or third man mission. And the guy makes progress. And I think I'm on the same, same mission here. My mission is to move telco to the public cloud. I think it's a, it's a long journey, right? I think people are like, who's this girl and she's like 12 people, and what's your story? And I'm like, I don't care. I have a singular mission is a quest. I am not going to stop until I moved the industry to the public cloud. And I it's my life's mission. And I'm psyched to do it. >> Well, we love the mojo. We'd love your style. We'd love Elon Musk, his mugshot. And again, just to bring the dots together you have that same mindset, which has, you know, as people you know, love her, love or like Elon, he's a builder. Okay, he builds things and he delivers. So as you said, so know I really appreciate the work you're doing. I love your philosophy. We're in total agreement, open, open building. Doing it together as a collective, being part of something. This is what the World needs. You got a lot of great ideas in the works and we can't wait to hear them. And what you got coming up over the next 68 days. This is the first of many conversations together. Thank you so much >> Yeah, yeah, no, it's going to be so awesome. Thank you so much for having me. Psyched to talk to you about it. >> Okay Mobile World Congress is happening in Barcelona on the June 28th. It's going to be in person and it's going to be probably the biggest hybrid event to date. Be there, check out telcoDR and theCUBE and the space that they took over 14 years at the helm there. Ericcson had it, now it's TelcoDR. Danielle Royston, founder and CEO here with me from TelcoDR. Thanks for watching. (soft music)

(upbeat music) >> Hi everyone, welcome to this special CUBE conversation and kickoff preview of the Mobile World Congress, Barcelona event. It's a physical event that's going to be taking place in person. It will probably be the first hybrid big event, 68 days until the June 28th kickoff. You might've heard TelcoDR, Telco Disruptor is on a mission to move the Telco industry to the public cloud. And it's taken one of the biggest spaces this year from Ericsson, is the big story everyone's talking about. And of course theCUBE is excited to be there and broadcast and be a partner with TelcoDR. So I'm excited to bring on the founder and CEO of TelcoDR, Danielle Royston. Danielle great to see you. Thanks for coming on for this Mobile World Congress Preview. >> Thank you so much for having me. I'm psyched to talk to you about this, it's going to be great. >> So Ericsson always has the biggest booth 14 years, you're disrupting Barcelona, people are not sure it's going to be on or off. It's officially on, it's happening and there's going to be a physical event, we're coming out of COVID still a risky move. It's going to be a big hybrid event, it's going to be in person. Tell us the story. How did you guys come out of nowhere, a disruptor take the biggest real estate in the place and turn it into a community event, a news event, a media event, everything, tell us. >> Yeah, well, I think it was March 9th, a little over a month ago. Ericsson announced that they were pulling out of MWC and it's very analogous to what happened in 2020. They were one of the first vendors to bail as well. And it kind of started this like tidal wave of people saying, can't do it. And I think the distinction now is that, that was at the beginning of COVID, there's a lot of unknowns. Is it coming, is it not, is it safe, is it not? We're now, year 50 to three, four months into it. I think that when you look at where we are now, cases are trending down, the vaccine is up. And I think the legacy players were sort of backward looking. They're like, this is a repeat of 2020 it's not safe to go, we're going to pull out. And I'm like with the a hundred days to go, in the vaccine ramping, I think I see the different way. I think there's a really big opportunity. John Hoffman, CEO of the GSMA had put out a two page missive on LinkedIn where he was personally responding to questions, about how serious they were about making sure that the event was safe and could be held. And my view was this is going to happen. And with Ericsson pulling out, I mean this is hollowed ground. I mean, this is massively successful company that has customers literally trained like Skinner's chickens to come to the same spot every year. And now I get to put out my shingle right there and say welcome and show them the future. And instead of the legacy past and all the normal rhetoric that you hear from those sort of dinosaurs, Ericsson and Nokia, now they're going to hear about the public cloud. And I'm really excited for this opportunity. I think the ROI on this event is instant. And so it was a pretty easy decision. I think I thought about it for about 30 seconds. >> It's a real bold move. And again it's a risk that pays off if it happens, if it doesn't, didn't happen, but it's like the startups that put a Superbowl commercial off for the first time. It's a big hit and it's a big gamble that pays off huge. Take us through, how did it all happen? Did you just wake up and saw it was open? How did you know that it was open? Was it like, does an email go out and say, hey I got this huge space for 55 years. >> Well, I mean, it was big news. It was big news in the industry that they were pulling out and all other journalists were like, oh, here we go again. Everyone's going to bail, who's next, right? And everyone was sort of like building that sort of negative momentum energy. And I'm like, we got to squash this. So I put out a tweet on Twitter. I mean, I'm not the most followed person but I'm kind of known in Telco. And I was like, hey, GSMA, I'll take over the booth. And I don't think people even liked my tweet, right? Like no likes no retweets. I reached out to a couple of journalists. I'm like, let's do an interview, let's do a story. Everyone's like, we'll have you on the podcast, like in a month, I'm like, what's? So when John Hoffman had put out that letter I had connected to him. And so I was like, oh, I'm connected to the CEO of the GSMA. So I went out on LinkedIn and I referenced the story and I said, John Hoffman, I'll take over the booth. And I think about 30 minutes later he responded and said, let's do it. And I said, great, who do I talk to? And I was in touch with someone within a couple of hours. And I think we put the whole deal together in 48. And I think wrote the press release and announced it on Friday. So happened on Tuesday the 9th, announced by that Friday. And I really, I was like, GSMA, we've got to get this out, and we got to stop the negative momentum of the show, and get people to realize it's going to be different in June. This is going to happen, let's go do it. And so I think they're psyched that I stepped into the booth. It's a big booth it's 65,000 square feet. 6,000 square meters for the rest of the world that use the metric system. And I mean, that's huge. I mean, that's the size of a professional pitch in a football field, a soccer field. That's a one and a half football fields. It's a ton of space, it's a ton of space to fill up. >> I think what's interesting, as this points out that this new business model of being connected you were on LinkedIn, you connect to them, you get a deal done so fast. This is the direct to consumer as a start up, you're literally took over the Primo space, the best face in the area, so congratulations. And the other thing that's notable and why I'm excited to talk to you is that this kind of sets the table for the first global, what I call hybrid event. This will probably be a cornerstone case study in and of itself, because we're still kind of coming out of the pandemic. People are getting vaccinated, people want to fly, they want to get out of the house. You're partnering with theCUBE, and the CUBE 365 platform. And we love hybrid, we love doing events, theCUBE, that's what we do with video. Now, we're going to do a partnership with you to create this hybrid experience. What can people and guests who come to Barcelona or watch remotely expect? >> Yeah so, I think there's a couple of experiences that we're trying to drive in the booth. I think obviously demonstrations, I can't fill 65,000 square feet on my own. I'm a startup small company. And so I am inviting like-minded, forward thinking companies to join me in the booth. I'm paying for it providing a turnkey experience for those vendors. And so I think what we have in common is we're thinking about future technologies, like open ran on the network side and obviously public cloud which is a big part of my message. And so first and foremost, come and see the companies that are driving the change, the new technologies that are out there, and what's available for carriers to start to adopt and think about. MWC is a meeting intensive event. Deals are done at this show. In 2019, I think the stat is $65 billion of deals were put together at the show. And so a big component of the booth will be a place for executives to come together and have private conversations. And so we're going to have that. So that's going to be a big piece of it. And I think the third part is driving education and thought leadership. And so there's going to be a whole talk track, right? Tech topics, business topics, customer case studies, involve the hyperscalers, and really start to educate the telco community around these new technologies. But there'll be shorter talks. They won't be like hour long keynotes. We're talking 15, 20 minutes. And I think one thing that we're going to do with you as you were just talking about with the CUBE is, you know, MWC was the first big show to have to cancel with COVID, I think in 2019, sorry, 2020, the dates, it's always the last Monday in February and the rest of that week. And so that's like right at the beginning of the COVID stuff, Italy was just starting to take off. And so it was one of the first shows that had to make a big call and decide to cancel, which they did. This is going to be one of the first shows that comes back online post COVID, right? And so I don't think things just snap back to the way that they used to be. I don't think we as consumers are going to snap back to the way that we were operating, we're now used to being able to get curbside delivery from any restaurant in the city. I mean, it's just a sort of a different expectation. And so partnering with the CUBE, we really want to provide an experience that brings the virtual people into the booth. Typically in events like this, you really have to be there to see it. Booths are kind of like unveiled the day of the show, what's going on. One thing I'm trying to do is really educate people about what you can expect. What can you see? This is what it's going to look like. And so we're going to start to share some pictures of the booth of what it looks like. Number one, to drive excitement with the partners that are coming, right? Like you're going to be part of something really, really fabulous. I think number two, attendees can wait, I don't know week off, to make the decision to go. And so maybe if COVID continues to trend down and vaccines are picking up steam, maybe they're like it's safe for me to go and I want to go be a part of that. But I think from here on now we're going to have sort of that virtual experience. It's always going to be part of shows. And so we're going to experiment with you guys. We're going to have a live streaming event, over the course of all MWC. It's going to be a way for people who are unable to travel or can't afford it, COVID or whatever, see what's going on in the booth. And it's going to be everything from listen to a talk, to watch what you guys are typically famous for, your awesome interviews. We're going to have man on the street, like we're here at at a demo station, take us through your little demo. We're going to have telepresence robots that people can reserve. And cruise through the booth the robot can go to a talk. The robot can watch on this streaming thing, the robot can go to a demo. The robot can go to a meeting and it's controlled by the the virtual attendees. And so experimenting, right? Like how do we make this great for virtual people? How do we make the virtual people feel part of the physical? How do the physical people feel the virtual people that are attending and really just make it feel like a community or both. So, we're excited. >> That's super awesome, and first of all, thank you for having paying for everyone and including theCUBE in there. But I think this speaks to the ecosystem of open, you're creating an open ecosystem. And I think that is a huge thing. So for people who are at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona this is going to be a nice, safe place to hang space as well as get deals done. As we comfortable doing media center, we'll get you on the digital TV, but also you're also designing what I call the first hybrid experience, not just having people, having on-demand videos on their website, connecting Barcelona with other parts of the world, with media and stories and content. I think that to me is going to be a great experiment slash upgrade. We'll see, we'll get to see it how it goes. >> Well, it was really, I mean, we all lived through 2020. I mean, some of the shows went on, AWS's re-invent happened, Google did like a crazy nine week program. It's very lonely to participate in those virtual events. You kind of log on by ourselves. No one's really tweeting about it. You're watching an event, the event is great but it was really lonely. And so I think what people love about the physical events is we're together and we're networking and we're meeting people and so, I think continuing to evolve that experience so that virtual is not as lonely. So we'll see, we'll see how it goes. >> I got to say your vision is really aligned with us and others that are in this open innovation world. Because if you look at like theCUBE, physical went away, we had no events, we did CUBE Virtual, a new brand. It wasn't a pivot, it was an extension, a line extension of theCUBE. Now theCUBE's coming back to the physical, we're going to bring that CUBE Virtual to connect everybody. So this is it, and it just amplifies the value of the physical event. So if done right, it's so much cooler. So that's cool. And what I want to ask you on the physical side to kind of bring it back to physical is, there's still going to be keynotes, there's still going to be talks at Mobile World Congress, and so I saw that scheduled and I just saw last week, GSM may announced you're going to be doing a keynote speech. That's amazing, so, how did that happen? So give us the lowdown on the keynote that you're doing. >> I'm sure the entire industry is like that happened. And it probably has something to do with the fact that I have one of the biggest booths at the space. I always put in a request to speak. I feel that I have a really exciting message to share with the industry. Over the last, I guess it's been nine or 10 months, I really been trying to amplify my voice. I have a podcast, I have a newsletter, I'm talking to execs. I have a list that I literally go down one by one stalking each executive of like, have I talked to them? Like how I told them about like the power of the public cloud. And so I am super thankful that I have this opportunity to spread that this message and I'm planning a really epic talk. I really want to shake the industry And this is my opportunity, right? This is my opportunity to stand on the biggest stage in our industry and command a presence and send out my message. And I'm absolutely thrilled to go do it. And I hope I crush it, I hope it's like a mic drop experience. And can't wait to do it. >> Well, we're looking forward to covering it. And we love the open vision. We love the idea of public cloud and the enablement and the disruption. Because just like you got the deal so fast you can move fast with modern applications with the cloud, moving at cloud scale, complete content game changer, so great stuff. So totally applaud that looking forward to and we're here cheer you on and ask the tough questions. I do want to get to... On Twitter yesterday though, you put out on tweetstorm on Twitter about the plans kind of teasing out the booth, how are you going to plan to build the booth. Are you worried that you're opening up too much of the kimono here and putting too much on the table 'cause it's usually a secret. Mobile World Congress is supposed to be secret, not publicly out there. What's the-- >> Well, I mean, I think this is just a little bit of a change has happened post COVID, right. People usually build their booth at don't reveal it until the first day of the show and it's kind of like this excitement to go see what is their big message and what's the big reveal. And there's always fun stuff. I think this years will be different as a first, like I said, a first big event back. I think I need to create a little bit of excitement for people who are going and maybe entice people that maybe you should think about coming. I realized this is a super personal decision, right? It depends on where you are and the country and your health and your status. But if you can do it, I want people to know that you're going to miss out. It's going to be super fun. So, yeah. >> Let's take a look at the booth 'cause I'm sure my next question wants to see. I know we have guys, do we have that rendering... Let's pull that up and let's talk this through. Let's go look at the rendering. So you can see here on the screen... Take us through this. >> Yeah, so what we want to do is give the sense of of cloud city and that's what we're calling the space. In cloud city there's outdoor space, like you see here. And then there's an indoor space. And indoors is where you work, where you buy, where you meet. And so you can see here on the left, the demonstration that would have different vendors displaying and it goes way back. I mean, what we're feeling like I said is like a football field, an American football field and a half or a European football field, a pitch. It's pretty extensive. And so we think we're going to have, I don't know, 20, 30 vendors showing their different software. I think we're scheduling or planning for about 24 different meeting rooms that we can schedule. All COVID safe with the space requirements in there. But in that outdoor space, it would be where you learn, the education. And then I think we're going to have this fabulous booth for theCUBE. It's going to look just so amazing with the backdrop of this amazing building. And I think I underappreciated or didn't really realize how devastated the event planning industry has been from COVID as well as construction. Obviously when events were shut down, these companies had to lay off thousands of workers. Some of the big firms have laid off 50% of their workforce. And those people they didn't just go home and sit around, they had to come up with a livelihood and those people have pivoted into another job. And they're not really, I mean, events aren't really back yet. So some of these firms are shrunk. The manpower is severely reduced. But then I think on the other side is, and you can see this in just housing construction. There's a lumber shortage, there's a shortage of materials. And so everything that we source for the booth, pretty much has to come from Spain. And so when we look at the booth, we have a pretty significant ceiling, where it looks like the roof of the building. It's an engineering feat to do that we're still working through the... I'm sure someone with a protractor is doing lots of math. The glass, we have those huge beautiful glass spans in the front. Getting a glass that spans that height, I think it's 18 feet. It's six meters tall. That's going to be hard. Things like the flooring. I want to have like hardwood laminate flooring. So it looks like hardwood floors. Don't know if we can find them. There like, why don't you do carpet? I'm like, can you just check one more vendor. I really want my floor. So we'll see how it goes. And yeah, I think that sharing this plan, the trials and tribulations, like how can this small startup, take over a space that usually takes nine months to plan, right? Who is this girl? What is she doing? How are they going to pull this off? I think it's like, grab your popcorn and watch the train wreck or hero's journey. We get it done. And I'm obviously-- >> It's like keeping up with the Kardashians. It's the bachelor, it's theCUBE, reality TV show. We can keep track of everything. It's all the fun. >> No, totally. I don't know how many people would be interested in a reality TV show about how you build a booth but I find it absolutely fascinating. I think a lot of people have eyes on the GMA and MWC coming out of COVID and what does that look like, and what's the attendance like. And so I'm excited to share (murmurs) So, exact. >> Well, people are on clubhouse, they're bored, they want to get out. I think this is a case time. Mobile World Congress has a huge economic impact, as a show it's got its own little economy built around. It impacts the country of Spain in Barcelona, the city, a great city. People love it. And so it certainly is notable and newsworthy. We will be following that story. I have to ask you more kind of a tactical question if you don't mind, while I have you here. Can you talk about some of the vendors that are coming and the kinds of talks you're going to have inside the booth and how do people get involved? You mentioned it's open to people who love open ran and open public cloud, open technologies. I mean, that's pretty much everybody. That's cool and relevant, which is like almost the whole world now. Like, is it going to be a space as a criteria? How do people get involved? What's the collaboration formula? >> Yeah, no, I have been working on putting together a list of potential vendors. You'd be surprised, not everyone is as bullish as I am on the public cloud. And so there was a little bit of a filtering criteria but otherwise anyone can come. Enterprise software vendors in telco where their primary customer is communications service provider. That's their software runs on the public cloud, come on in. People using open ran. And it's still a little sort of small band of cohorts that are really trying to drive this new technology forward and they're going up against some of the biggest companies in telco, right? They're going up against Huawei, they're going up against Ericsson. Both those guys are very anti and they're not really pro open ran 'cause it's hugely disruptive to their business. And so I'm pretty sure those guys are not psyched to see open ran become a thing in telco. And so it's really sort of about disruptive technologies that are in the booth. And so yeah, I'm paying for the space, I'm paying for the build-out, bring your demos, bring your people, come with your marketing message and let's build a community. And so we're talking to open ran vendors like Mavenir which is a pretty big name in the open ran space. I've been talking with Parallel Wireless in LTO Star. Those are also great players. Software vendors like to Tutoki, which is a talk that I did a little over a month ago about this new startup that has a web-scale charger that they're trying to put out there. Auria is another company that I'm really familiar with that has some cloud for software. And in little tiny startups like Sequence and some other up-and-comers that no one's heard of. So we're really excited to invite them into the booth. I've been secretly stalking Elon Musk, and Starlink and Space X to be a part of it. And we'll see. I'm kind of using Twitter and whatever I can to reach out and see if they want to be a part of it. But yeah, it really open arms. Not really excluding-- >> Well, Elon is very disruptive and you can reach out to him on Twitter. He's accessible. I mean, you've got to break through and he's antenna up for innovators, people who think differently, they love people who break down walls and markets lower open wins. I mean, we know there's a history, we've been covering it. I've been involved in all my career. People who bet against open always lose. It's happened in every single wave of innovation. So Elon's gettable. Let's get him. >> Who doesn't love Elon Musk? I mean, I think some people don't, I love him. He's my hero. I model a lot of the things that I do around his approach, his vision. 20 years ago, or close to 20 years ago, 2003, he said he was going to put people on Mars. And I think people laughed at him for being like the PayPal guy and this guy is crazy, but every year he makes progress against his goals. We have a relandable rocket. He's doing a manned mission this week, the second man mission or third man mission. The guy makes progress. And I think I'm on the same mission here. My mission is to move Telco to the public cloud. I think it's a long journey, right? I think people are like, who is this girl? And she's like 12 people and what's her story. And I'm like, I don't care. I have a singular mission is a quest. I am not going to stop until I move the industry to the public cloud. And it's my life's mission and I'm psyched to do it. >> Well, we love the mojo, we love your style. We love Elon Musk's mojo. And again, just to bring the dots together you have that same mindset, which is, love like Elon, he's a builder. He builds things and he delivers. So as you said, so... Danielle, I really appreciate the work you're doing. I love your philosophy. We're in total agreement. Open building. Doing it together as a collective, being part of something? This is what the world needs. You got a lot of great ideas in the works and we can't wait to hear them. And what you got coming up over the next 68 days. This is the first of many conversations together. Thank you. >> Yeah, that's going to be so awesome. Thank you so much for having me. Psyched to talk to you about it. >> Okay. Mobile World Congress is happening in Barcelona on the June 28th. It's going to be in person and it's going to be probably the biggest hybrid event to date. Be there, check out TelcoDR and theCUBE and the space that they took over 14 years at the helm there. Ericson had it, now it's TelcoDR. Danielle Royston, founder and CEO here with me from TelcoDR. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

from around the globe it's thecube covering space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly hello everyone welcome to the space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly where the intersection of space and security are coming together i'm john furrier your host with thecube here in california i want to welcome our featured guest lieutenant general john f thompson with the united states space force approach to cyber security that's the topic of this session and of course he's the commander of the space and missile system center in los angeles air force base also heading up space force general thank you for coming on really appreciate you kicking this off welcome to the symposium hey so uh thank you very much john for that very kind introduction also uh very much thank you to cal poly uh for this opportunity to speak to this audience today also a special shout out to one of the organizers uh dustin brun for all of his work uh helping uh get us uh to this point uh ladies and gentlemen as uh as uh john mentioned uh i'm jt thompson uh i lead the 6 000 men and women of the united states space forces space and missile system center which is headquartered here at los angeles air force base in el segundo if you're not quite sure where that's at it's about a mile and a half from lax this is our main operating location but we do have a number of other operating locations around the country with about 500 people at kirtland air force base in albuquerque new mexico uh and about another 500 people on the front range of the rockies uh between colorado springs and uh and denver plus a smattering of other much smaller operating locations nationwide uh we're responsible for uh acquiring developing and sustaining the united states space force's critical space assets that includes the satellites in the space layer and also on the ground layer our ground segments to operate those satellites and we also are in charge of procuring launch services for the u.s space force and a number of our critical mission partners across the uh department of defense and the intelligence community um just as a couple of examples of some of the things we do if you're unfamiliar with our work we developed and currently sustained the 31 satellite gps constellation that satellite constellation while originally intended to help with global navigation those gps signals have provided trillions of dollars in unanticipated value to the global economy uh over the past three decades i mean gps is everywhere i think everybody realizes that agriculture banking the stock market the airline industry uh separate and distinct navigation systems it's really pervasive across both the capabilities for our department of defense and capabilities for our economy and and individuals billions of individuals across our country and the planet some of the other work we do for instance in the communications sector uh secure communications satellites that we design and build that link america's sons and daughters serving in the military around the world and really enable real-time support and comms for our deployed forces and those of our allies we also acquire uh infrared missile warning satellites uh that monitor the planet for missile launches and provide advanced warning uh to the u.s homeland and to our allies uh in case some of those missile launches are uh nefarious um on a note that's probably a lot closer to home maybe a lot closer to home than many of us want to think about here in the state of california in 2018 smc jumped through a bunch of red tape and bureaucracy uh to partner with the u.s forest service during the two of the largest wildfires in the state's history the camp and woolsey fires in northern california as those fires spread out of control we created processes on the fly to share data from our missile warning satellites those are satellites that are systems that are purpose built to see heat sources from thousands of miles above the planet and we collaborated with the us forest service so that firefighters on the ground uh could track those fires more in real time and better forecast fires and where they were spreading thereby saving lives and and property by identifying hot spots and flare-ups for firefighters that data that we were able to working with our contractors pass to the u.s forest service and authorities here in california was passed in less than an hour as it was collected to get it into the hands of the emergency responders the first responders as quickly as possible and doing that in an hour greatly surpassed what was available from some of the other assets in the airborne and ground-based fire spotters it was really instrumental in fighting those fires and stopping their spread we've continued uh that involvement in recent years using multiple systems to support firefighters across the western u.s this fall as they battled numerous wildfires that unfortunately continue working together with the u.s forest service and with other partners uh we like to make uh we like to think that we made a difference here but there's still a lot more work to go and i think that we should always be asking ourselves uh what else can space data be used for and how can we more rapidly get that space data to uh stakeholders so that they can use it for for purposes of good if you will how else can we protect our nation how else can we protect our friends and allies um i think a major component of the of the discussion that we will have throughout this conference is that the space landscape has changed rapidly and continues to change rapidly um just over the past few years uh john and i were talking before we went live here and 80 nations now have uh space programs 80 nearly 80 space faring nations on the planet um if you just look at one mission area that uh the department of defense is interested in and that's small launch there are currently over a hundred different small launch companies uh within the u.s industrial base vying for commercial dod and civil uh payload capabilities uh mostly to low earth orbit it's it's just truly a remarkable time if you factor in those things like artificial intelligence and machine learning um where we're revolutionary revolutionizing really uh the ways that we generate process and use data i mean it's really remarkable in 2016 so if you think about this four years ago uh nasa estimated that there were 28 terabytes of information transiting their space network each day and that was four years ago um uh obviously we've got a lot of desire to work with a lot of the people in the audience of this congress or in this conference uh we need to work with big thinkers like many of you to answer questions on how best we apply data analytics to extract value and meaning from that data we need new generations of thinkers to help apply cutting edge edge theories of data mining cyber behaviorism and internet of things 2.0 it's just truly a remarkable time uh to be in the space business and the cyber aspects of the states of the space business are truly truly daunting and important to uh to all of us um integrating cyber security into our space systems both commercial and government is a mandate um it's no longer just a nice to have as the us space force and department of the air force leadership has said many times over the past couple of years space is becoming congested and contested and that contested aspect means that we've got to focus on cyber security uh in the same way that the banking industry and cyber commerce focus on uh cyber security day in and day out the value of the data and services provided is really directly tied to the integrity and availability of that data and services from the space layer from the ground control segments associated with it and this value is not just military it's also economic and it's not just american it's also a value for the entire world particularly particularly our allies as we all depend upon space and space systems your neighbors and friends here in california that are employed at the space and missile system center uh work with network defenders we work with our commercial contractors and our systems developers um our international allies and partners to try and build as secure and resilient systems as we can from the ground up that keep the global commons of space free and open for exploration and for commerce um as john and i were talking earlier before we came online there's an aspect of cyber security for space systems especially for some of our legacy systems that's more how do we bolt this on because we fielded those space systems a number of years ago and the the challenges of cyber security in the space domain have grown so we have a part that we have to worry about bolting it on but then we have to worry about building it in as we as we field new systems and build in a flexibility that that realizes that the cyber threat or the cyber security landscape will evolve over time it's not just going to be stagnant there will always be new vulnerabilities and new threat vectors that we always have to look at look uh as secretary barrett who is our secretary of the air force likes to say most americans use space before they have their first cup of coffee in the morning the american way of life really depends on space and as part of the united states space force we work with defense leaders our congress joint and international military teammates and industry to ensure american leadership in space i really thank you for this opportunity to address the audience today john and thanks so much to cal poly for letting me be one of the speakers at this event i really look forward to this for uh several months and so with that i look forward to your questions as we kind of move along here general thank you very much for the awesome uh introductory statement uh for the folks watching on the stream brigadier general carthan is going to be in the chat answering any questions feel free to chat away he's the vice commander of space and missile systems center he'll be available um a couple comments from your keynote before i get to my questions because it just jumped in my head you mentioned the benefits of say space but the fires in california we're living that here that's really real time that's a benefit you also mentioned the ability for more people launching payloads into space and i only imagine moore's law smaller faster cheaper applies to rockets too so i'm imagining you have the benefits of space and you have now more potential objects flying out sanctioned and maybe unsanctioned so you know is it going to be more rules around that i mean this is an interesting question because it's exciting space force but for all the good there is potentially bad out there yeah so i i john i think the uh i think the basics of your question is as space becomes more congested and contested is there a need for more international norms of how satellites fly in space what kind of basic features satellites have to perhaps deorbit themselves what kind of basic protections does do all satellites should all satellites be afforded as part of a peaceful global commons of space i think those are all fantastic questions and i know that u.s and many uh allied policy makers are looking very very hard at those kinds of questions in terms of what are the norms of behavior and how we uh you know how how we field and field is the military term but you know how we uh populate uh using civil or uh commercial terms uh that space layer at different altitudes uh low earth orbit mid mid-earth orbit geosynchronous earth orbit different kinds of orbits uh what the kind of mission areas we accomplish from space that's all things that need to be definitely taken into account as uh as the place gets a little bit not a little bit as the place gets increasingly more popular day in and day out well i'm super excited for space force i know that a new generation of young folks are really interested in it's an emerging changing great space the focus here at this conference is space and cyber security intersection i'd like to get your thoughts on the approach that space force is taking to cyber security and how it impacts our national goals here in the united states yeah yeah so that's a that's a great question john let me let me talk about in two uh two basic ways but number one is and and i know um some people in the audience this might make them a little bit uncomfortable but i have to talk about the threat right um and then relative to that threat i really have to talk about the importance of uh of cyber and specifically cyber security as it relates to that threat um the threats that we face um really represent a new era of warfare and that new era of warfare involves both space and cyber uh we've seen a lot of action in recent months uh from certain countries notably china and russia uh that have threatened what i referred to earlier as the peaceful global commons of space for example uh it through many unclassified sources and media sources everybody should understand that um uh the russians have been testing on orbit uh anti-satellite capabilities it's been very clear if you were following just the week before last the department of defense released its uh 2020 military and security developments involving the people's republic of china um uh and uh it was very clear that china is developing asats electronic jammers directed energy weapons and most relevant to today's discussion offensive cyber uh capabilities there are kinetic threats uh that are very very easy to see but a cyber attack against a critical uh command and control site or against a particular spacecraft could be just as devastating to the system and our war fighters in the case of gps and important to note that that gps system also impacts many civilians who are dependent upon those systems from a first response perspective and emergency services a cyber attack against a ground control site could cause operators to lose control of a spacecraft or an attacker could feed spoofed data to a system to mislead operators so that they send emergency services personnel to the to the wrong address right attacks on spacecraft on orbit whether directly via a network of intrusion or enabled through malware introduced during the systems production uh while we're building the satellite can [ __ ] or corrupt the data denial of service type attacks on our global networks obviously would disrupt our data flow and interfere with ongoing operations and satellite control i mean if gps went down i you know i hesitate to say it this way because we might elicit some screams from the audience but if gps went down a starbucks wouldn't be able to handle your mobile order uber drivers wouldn't be able to find you and domino's certainly certainly wouldn't be able to get there in 30 minutes or less right so with a little bit of tongue-in-cheek there from a military operations perspective it's dead serious um uh we have become accustomed in the commercial world to threats like lance ransomware and malware and those things have unfortunately become commonplace in commercial terrestrial networks and computer systems however what we're seeing is that our adversaries with the increased competition in space these same techniques are being retooled if you will to use against our national security space systems uh day in and day out um as i said during my opening remarks on the importance of cyber the value of these systems is directly tied to their integrity if commanders in the field uh firefighters in california or baristas in in starbucks can't trust the data they see they're receiving then that really harms their decision-making capabilities one of the big trends we've recently seen is the mood move towards proliferated leo uh uh constellations obviously uh spacex's uh starlink uh on the commercial side and on the military side the work that darpa and my organization smc are doing on blackjack and casino as well as some space transport layer constellation work that the space development agency is designing are all really really important types of mesh network systems that will revolutionize how we plan and field warfighting systems and commercial communications and internet providing systems but they're also heavily reliant on cyber security uh we've got to make sure that they are secured to avoid an accident or international damage uh loss of control of these constellations really could be catastrophic from both a mission perspective or from uh you know satellites tumbling out of low earth orbit perspective another trend is introductions in artificial intelligence and machine learning on board spacecraft or at the edge our satellites are really not so much hardware systems with a little software anymore in the commercial sector and in the defense sector they're basically flying boxes full of software right and we need to ensure the data that we're getting out of those flying boxes full of software are helping us base our decisions on accurate data and algorithms govern governing the right actions and that those uh that those systems are impervious to the extent possible uh to nefarious uh modifications so in summation a cyber security is vital element of everything in our national security space goals and i would argue for our national uh goals uh writ large including uh economic and information uh uh dimensions uh the space force leadership at all levels uh from uh some of the brand new second lieutenants that general raymond uh swore into the space force this morning uh ceremonially from the uh air force association's air space and cyberspace conference uh to the various highest levels general raymond uh general d t thompson myself and a number of other senior leaders in this enterprise we've got to make sure that we're all working together to keep cyber security at the forefront of our space systems because it they absolutely depend on it you know you mentioned uh hardware software threats opportunities challenges i want to ask you because you you got me thinking of the minute there around infrastructure i mean we've heard critical infrastructure you know grids here on on earth you're talking about critical infrastructure a redefinition of what critical infrastructure is an extension of what we have so i'd love to get your thoughts about space force's view of that critical infrastructure vis-a-vis the threat vectors because you know the term threat vectors has been kicked around in the cyber space oh yeah threat vectors they're always increasing the surface area well if the surface area is from space it's an unlimited surface area so you got different vectors so you got new critical infrastructure developing real time really fast and you got an expanded threat vector landscape putting that in perspective for the folks that aren't really inside the ropes on these critical issues how would you explain this and how would you talk about those two things well so i tell you um i just like um uh just like uh i'm sure people in the security side or the cyber security side of the business in the banking industry feel they feel like it's uh all possible threat vectors represent a dramatic and protect potentially existential threat to all of the dollars that they have in the banking system to the financial sector on the department of defense side we've got to have sort of the same mindset um that threat vector from to and through space against critical space systems ground segments the launch enterprise or transportation uh to orbit and the various different uh domains within uh within space itself like i mentioned before uh leo mio and geo-based satellites with different orbits all of the different mission areas that are accomplished from space that i mentioned earlier some that i didn't mention like weather tactical or wide band communications uh various new features of space control all of those are things that we have to worry about from a cyber security uh threat perspective and it's a it's a daunting challenge right now right yeah it's awesome and one of the things we've been following on the hardware side here in the on the ground is the supply chain we've seen you know malware being you know really put into really obscure hardware who manufactures it as being outsourced obviously government has restrictions but with the private sector uh you mentioned china and and the us kind of working together across these these peaceful areas but you got to look at the supply chain how does the supply chain the security aspect impact the mission of the u.s space force yeah yeah so so um how about another um just in terms of an example another kind of california-based historical example right um the very first u.s satellite uh explorer one was built by uh the jet propulsion uh laboratory folks uh not far from here in el segundo up in uh up in pasadena um that satellite when it was first built in the late 50s uh weighed a little bit over 30 pounds and i'm sure that each and every part was custom made and definitely made by u.s companies fast forward to today the global supply chain is so tightly coupled and frankly many industries are so specialized almost specialized regionally around the planet we focus every day to guarantee the integrity of every component that we put in our space systems is absolutely critical to the operations of those satellites and we're dependent upon them but it becomes more difficult and more difficult to understand the the heritage if you will of some of the parts that are used the thousands of parts that are used in some of our satellites that are literally school bus sized right the space industry especially uh national security space sector um uh is relatively small compared to other commercial industries and we're moving to towards using more and more parts uh from non-us companies uh cyber security and cyber awareness have to be baked in from the beginning if we're going to be using parts that maybe we don't necessarily um understand 100 percent like an explorer one uh the the lineage of that particular part the environmental difficulties in space are well known the radiation environment the temperature extremes the vacuum those require specialized component and the us military is not the only uh customer in that space in fact we're definitely not the dominant customer uh in space anymore all those factors require us along with our other government partners and many different commercial space organizations to keep a very close eye on our supply chains from a quality perspective a security perspective and availability um there's open source reporting on supply training intrusions from um many different breaches of commercial retailers to the infectious spread of uh you know compromised patches if you will and our adversaries are aware of these techniques as i mentioned earlier with other forms of attack considering our supply chains and development networks really becomes fair game for our adversaries so we have to uh take that threat seriously um between the government and industry sectors here in the u.s we're also working with our industry partners to enact stronger defenses and assess our own vulnerabilities last fall we completed an extensive review of all of our major contracts here at space and missile system center to determine the levels of cyber security requirements we've implemented across our portfolio and it sounds really kind of you know businessy geeky if you will you know hey we looked at our contracts to make sure that we had the right clauses in our contracts to address cyber security as dynamically as we possibly could and so we found ourselves having to add new language to our contracts to require system developers to implement some more advanced uh protective measures in this evolving cyber security environment so that data handling and supply chain perspective uh protections um from contract inception to launch and operations were taken into account uh cyber security really is a key performance parameter for us now it's as important as the the mission performance of the system it's as important as cost it's as important as schedule because if we deliver the perfect system on time and on cost uh it can perform that missile warning or that communications mis mission perfectly but it's not cyber secure if it doesn't have cyber protections built into it or the ability to implement mitigations against cyber uh threats then we've essentially fielded a shoe box in space that doesn't do the k the the war fighter or the nation uh any good um supply chain risk management is a is a major challenge for us uh we're doing a lot to coordinate with our industry partners uh we're all facing it head on uh to try and build secure and trusted components uh that keep our confidence as leaders firefighters and baristas uh as the case may be uh but it is a challenge and we're trying to rise to that challenge you know this so exciting this new area because it really touches everything you know talk about geeking out on on the tech the hardware the systems but also you put your kind of mba hat on you go what's the roi of the extra development and how you how things get built because the always the exciting thing for space geeks is like you're building cool stuff people love it's it's exciting but you still have to build and cyber security has proven that security has to be baked in from the beginning and be thought as a system architecture so you're still building things which means you've got to acquire things you got to acquire parts you got to acquire build software and and sustain it how is security impacting the acquisition and the sustainment of these systems for space yeah from initial development uh through planning for the acquisition design development fielding or production fielding and sustainment it impacts all aspects of of the life cycle john uh we simply especially from the concept of baking in cyber security uh we can't wait until something is built and then try and figure out how to make it cyber secure so we've moved way further uh towards working side by side with our system developers to strengthen cyber security from the very beginning of a system's development cyber security and the resilience associated with it really have to be treated as a key system attribute as i mentioned earlier equivalent with data rates or other metrics of performance we like to talk in uh in the space world about uh mission assurance and mission assurance has always you know sort of taken us as we as we technically geek out right mission assurance has always taken us to the will this system work in space right can it work in a vacuum can it work in you know as it as it uh you know transfers through uh the van allen radiation belt or through the the um the southern hemisphere's electromagnetic anomaly right will it work out in space and now from a resiliency perspective yeah it has to work in space it's got to be functional in space but it's also got to be resistant to these cyber security threats it's it's not just i think uh general dt thompson quoted this term it's not just widget assurance anymore it's mission assurance um uh how does that satellite uh operator that ground control segment operate while under attack so let me break your question a little bit uh just for purposes of discussion into into really two parts uh cyber uh for cyber security for systems that are new and cyber security uh for systems that are in sustainment or kind of old and legacy um obviously there's cyber vulnerabilities that threaten both and we really have to employ different strategies for for defense of of each one for new systems uh we're desperately trying to implement across the department of defense in particular in the space world a kind of a devsecops methodology and practice to delivering software faster and with greater security for our space systems here at smc we have a program called enterprise ground services which is a tool kit basically a collection of tools for common command and control of different satellite systems egs as we call it has an integrated suite for defensive cyber capabilities network operators can use these tools to gain unprecedented insight to data flows and to monitor space network traffic for anomalies or other potential indicators of of bad behavior malicious behavior if you will um uh it's rudimentary at this point but because we're using devsecops and that incremental development approach as we scale it it just becomes more and more capable you know every every product increment that we field here at uh at uh la air force base uh uh we have the united space space forces west coast software factory which we've dubbed kobayashi maru they're using those agile devops uh software development practices uh to deliver uh space awareness software uh to the combined space operations center uh affectionately called the csp that c-spock is just down the road uh from cal poly uh there in san luis obispo at vandenberg air force base they've securely linked the c-spock with other space operation centers around the planet our allies australia canada and the uk uh we're partnering with all of them to enable secure and enhanced combined space operations so lots of new stuff going on as we bake in new development uh capabilities for our our space systems but as i mentioned earlier we've got large constellations on satellite of satellites on orbit right now some of them are well in excess of a decade or more old on orbit and so the design aspects of those satellites are several decades old and so but we still have to worry about them because they're critical to our space capabilities um we've been working with an air force materiel command organization uh called crows which stands for the cyber resiliency office for uh weapon systems to assess all of those legacy platforms from a cyber security perspective and develop defensive strategies and potential hardware and software upgrades to those systems to better enable them to to live through this increasingly cyber security uh concerned era that we currently live in our industry partners have been critical to to both of those different avenues both new systems and legacy systems we're working closely with them to defend and upgrade uh national assets and develop the capabilities to do similar with uh with new national assets coming online the vulnerabilities of our space systems really kind of threaten the way we've done business in the past both militarily and in the case of gps economically the impacts of that cyber security risk are clear in our acquisition and sustainment processes but i've got to tell you it that as the threat vectors change as the vulnerabilities change we've got to be nimble enough agile enough to be able to bounce back and forth we can't just say uh many people in the audience are probably familiar with the rmf or the risk management framework approach to um to reviewing uh the cyber security of a system we can't have program managers and engineers just accomplish an rmf on a system and then hey high five we're all good uh it's a journey not a destination that's cyber security and it's a constant battle rhythm throughout a weapon systems life cycle not just a single event i want to get to this commercial business needs and your needs on the next question but before i go there you mentioned the agile and i see that clearly because when you have accelerated innovation cycles you've got to be faster and we saw this in the computer industry mainframes mini computers and then when you started getting beyond me when the internet hit and pcs came out you saw the big enterprises the banks and and government start to work with startups it used to be a joke in the entrepreneurial circles is that you know there's no way if you're a startup you're ever going to get a contract with a big business enterprise now that used to be for public sector and certainly uh for you guys so as you see startups out there and there's acquisition involved i'm sure would love to love to have a contract with space force there's an roi calculation where if it's in space and you have a sustainment view edit software you might have a new kind of business model that could be attractive to startups could you share your thoughts on the folks who want to be a supplier to you uh whether they're a startup or an existing business that wants to be agile but they might not be that big company we are john that's a fantastic question we are desperately trying to reach out to to those new space advocates to those startups to those um what we sometimes refer to within the department of defense those non-traditional uh defense contractors a couple of things just for uh thinking purposes on some of the things that we're trying to highlight um uh three years ago we created here at uh space and missile system center uh the space enterprise consortium uh to provide a platform uh a contractual vehicle really to enable us to rapidly prototype uh development of space systems and to collaborate uh between the u.s space force uh traditional defense contractors non-traditional vendors like startups and even some academic institutions uh spec as we call it space enterprise consortium uses a specialized contracting tool to get contracts uh awarded quickly many in the audience may be familiar with other transaction agreements and that's what spec is based on and so far in just three years spec has awarded 75 different uh prototyping contracts worth over 800 million dollars with a 36 reduction in time to award and because it's a consortium based competition for um for these kinds of prototyping efforts the barrier to entry for small and non-traditional for startups even for academic institutions to be able to compete for these kinds of prototypings is really lowered right um uh these types of partnerships uh that we've been working through on spec uh have really helped us work with smaller companies who might not have the background or expertise in dealing with the government or in working with cyber security uh for their systems both their developmental systems and the systems that they're designing and trying to build we want to provide ways for companies large and small to partner together and support um uh kind of mutually beneficial uh relationships between all um recently uh at the annual air force association uh conference that i mentioned earlier i moderated a panel with several space industry leaders uh all from big traditional defense contractors by the way and they all stressed the importance of building bridges and partnerships uh between major contractors in the defense industry and new entrants uh and that helps us capture the benefits of speed and agility that come with small companies and startups as well as the expertise and specialized skill sets of some of those uh larger contractors uh that we rely on day in and day out advanced cyber security protections and utilization of secure facilities are just a couple of things that i think we could be prioritizing more so in those collaborations as i mentioned earlier the spec has been very successful in awarding a number of different prototyping contracts and large dollar values and it's just going to get better right there's over 400 members of the space enterprise consortium 80 of them are non-traditional kinds of vendors and we just love working with them another thing that many people in the audience may be familiar with in terms of our outreach to innovators uh if you will and innovators that include uh cyber security experts is our space pitch day events right so we held our first event last november in san francisco uh where we awarded over a two-day period about 46 million dollars to 30 different companies um that had potentially game-changing ideas these were phase two small business innovative research efforts uh that we awarded with cash on the spot uh we're planning on holding our second space pitch day in the spring of 2021. uh we're planning on doing it right here in los angeles uh covent 19 environment permitting um and we think that these are you know fantastic uh uh venues for identifying and working with high-speed startups startups and small businesses who are interested in uh really truly partnering with the us air force it's a as i said before it's a really exciting time to be a part of this business uh and working with the innovation economy uh is something that the department of defense uh really needs to do in that um the innovation that we used to think was ours you know that 80 percent of the industrial-based innovation that came from the department of defense uh the the script has been flipped there and so now more than 70 percent uh particularly in space innovation uh comes from the commercial sector not from uh not from the defense business itself and so um that's a tsunami of uh investment and a tsunami of uh capability and i need to figure out how to get my surfboard out and ride it you know what i mean yeah i mean it's one of those things where the flip the script has been flipped but it's exciting because it's impacting everything are you talking about systems architecture you're talking about software you're talking about a business model you talk about devsecops from a technical perspective but now you have a business model innovation all the theaters of uh are exploding in innovation technical business personnel this brings up the workforce challenge you've got the cyber needs for the u.s space force there's probably a great roi model for new kinds of software development that could be priced into contracts that's a entrepreneurial innovation you got the the business model theater you've got the personnel how does the industry adopt and change you guys are clearly driving this how does the industry adjust to you yeah so um i think a great way to answer that question is to just talk about the kind of people that we're trying to prioritize in the u.s space force from a from an acquisition perspective and in this particular case from a from a cyber security perspective as i mentioned earlier it's the most exciting time to be in space programs uh really since the days of apollo um uh you know just to put it in terms that you know maybe have an impact with the audience uh from 1957 until today approximately 9 000 satellites uh have been launched from the various space faring countries around the planet uh less than two thousand of those nine thousand are still up on orbit and operational and yet in the new space regime um players like spacex have plans to launch you know 12 000 satellites for some of their constellations alone it really is a remarkable time in terms of innovation and fielding of space capabilities and all of those space capabilities whether they're commercial civil or defense are going to require appropriate cyber security uh protections it's just a really exciting time uh to be working in stuff like this and so uh folks like the folks in this audience who have a passion about space and a passion about cyber security are just the kind of people that we want to work with because we need to make sure our systems are are secure and resilient we need folks that have technical and computing expertise engineering skills to be able to design cybersecure systems that can detect and mitigate attacks uh but we also as you alluded to we need people that have that business and um you know business acumen human networking background so that we can launch the startups and work with the non-traditional businesses uh help to bring them on board help to secure both their data and our data and uh and and make sure our processes and systems are are free as much as possible from uh uh from attack um for preparation for for audience members who are young and maybe thinking about getting into this uh trade space um you gotta be smart on digital networking uh you gotta understand basic internet protocols concepts uh programming languages uh database design uh learn what you can from penetration or vulnerability testing and and uh risk assessment i will tell you this and i don't think he will i know he will not mind me telling you this but you've got to be a lifelong learner and so two years ago i'm at home one evening and i get a phone call on my cell phone and it's my boss the commander of air force space command uh general j raymond who is now currently the chief of space operations and he is on temporary duty flying overseas he lands where he's going and he first thing he does when he lands is he calls me and he goes jt um while i was traveling um i noticed that there were e-books available on the commercial airliner i was traveling on and there was an e-book on something called scrumming and agile devsecops and i read it have you read it um and i said no sir but if you tell me what the title of the book is i will read it and so i got to go to my staff meeting um you know the very next week the next time we had a staff meeting and tell everybody in the stab meeting hey if the four star and the three star can read the book about scrumming then i'm pretty sure all of you around this table and all our lieutenants and our captains our gs13s all of our government employees can get smart on uh the scrumming development process and interestingly as another side i had a telephone call with him last year during the holidays where he was trying to take some leave and i said sir what are you up to today are you are you you know making eggnog for the event tonight or whatever and the chief of space operations told me no i'm trying to teach myself python i'm at lesson two and it's not going so well but i'm i'm gonna figure this out and so that kind of thing if the chief of staff or the you know the the the chief of space operations can prioritize scrumming and python language and innovation in his daily schedule then we're definitely looking for other people who can do that and we'll just say lower levels of rank uh throughout our entire space force enterprise um look i i we don't need to need people that can code a satellite from scratch but we need to know we need to have people that have a basic grasp of the programming basics and cyber security requirements and that can turn those things into into meaningful actions obviously in the space domain things like basic physics and orbital mechanics are also important uh space is not an intuitive uh domain so under understanding how things survive uh on orbit is really critical to making the right design and operational decisions and you know i know there's probably a lot because of this conference i know there's a probably a whole lot of high-speed cyber security experts out in the audience and i need those people in the u.s space force the the country is counting on it but i wouldn't discount having people that are just cyber aware or cyber savvy right i have contracting officers and logisticians and program managers and they don't have to be high-end cyber security experts but they have to be aware enough about it to be able to implement cyber security protections um into our space system so the skill set is is really really broad um our adversaries are pouring billions of dollars into uh define designing uh and fielding offensive and destructive space cyber security weapons right they've repeatedly shown really a blatant disregard of safety and international norms for good behavior on orbit and the cyber security aspects of our space systems is really a key battleground going forward so that we can maintain that as i mentioned before peaceful uh global commons of space we really need all hands on deck if you're interested in helping in uniform if you're interested in helping uh not in uniform uh but as a government employee a commercial or civil employee to help us make cyber security more important uh or more cape more able to be developed for our space systems then we'd really love to uh to work with you or have you on the team to build that safe and secure future for our space systems lieutenant general john thompson great insight thank you for sharing all that awesome stories too and motivation for the young next generation the united states space force approach of cyber security really amazing talk thank you for your time final parting question is as you look out and you had your magic wand what's your view for the next few years in terms of things that we could accomplish it's a super exciting time what do you hope for so um um first of all john thanks to you and and thanks to cal poly uh for the invitation and and thanks to everybody for uh for their interest in cyber security especially as it relates to space systems that's here at the conference um uh there's a quote and i'll read it here uh from uh bernard schriever who was the uh the founder if you will uh a legend in uh dod space the founder of the western development division which was a predecessor organization to space and missile systems center general shrever i think captures the essence of what how we see the next couple of years the world has an ample supply of people who can always come up with a dozen good reasons why new ideas will not work and should not be tried but the people who produce progress are breed apart they have the imagination the courage and the persistence to find solutions and so i think if you're hoping that the next few years of space innovation and cyber security innovation are going to be a pony ride at the county fair then perhaps you should look for another line of work because i think the next few years in space and cyber security innovation are going to be more like a rodeo um and a very dynamic rodeo as it goes it is a an awesome privilege to be part of this ecosystem it's really an honor for me to um to be able to play some small role uh in the space ecosystem and trying to improve it uh while i'm trying to improve the chances of uh of the united states of america in a uh in a space war fighting uh uh environment um and so i thank all of you for uh participating today and for this little bit of time that you've allowed me to share with you thank you sir thank you for your leadership and thank you for the for the time for this awesome event space and cyber security symposium 2020 i'm john furrier on behalf of cal poly thanks for watching [Music]

>>From around the globe. It's the queue cover >>Space and cyber security >>Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal poly. >>Hello and welcome to the space and cybersecurity symposium 2020 hosted by Cal poly and the cube I'm chilling for a, your host. We have a great session here. Space, cyber security, the department of defense perspective. We have bond Google hall, director of C four ISR directorate office of the undersecretary of defense for acquisition and sustainment for the DOD and Chris Henson, technical director space and weapons, cybersecurity solutions for the national security agency. Gentlemen, thank you for taking the time for this awesome session. Thank you, John. Thank you. So we're gonna talk about the perspective of the DOD relative to space cybersecurity, a lot, going on congestion, contention, freedom, evolution innovation. So Paul, I'd like to have you start with your opening statement on how you see the space cybersecurity perspective, Don, thanks for the intro. Really appreciate it. First, let me give my thanks to Cal poly for a convening, the space and cybersecurity symposium this year, you know, and despite the pandemic, the organization and the content delivery spreading impressive, I really foot stomping. >>What can possibly be done with a number of these virtual platforms? This has been awesome. Thanks for the opportunity. I also want to recognize my colleague, Chris Nissen from NSA was actually assigned to our staff that LSD, but he brings both policy and technical perspective in this whole area. So I think you'll, you'll find his commentary, uh, and positions on things very refreshing or for today's seminar. Now space cyber security is a pretty interesting terminology for us all. Uh, cyber security means protecting against cyber threats and it's really more than just computers here on earth, right? Uh, space is the newest war fighting domain, and cybersecurity's perhaps even more of a challenge in this domain that and others. Uh, I'm sure it'll turn journal Thompson and major journals Shaw discuss the criticality of this new dorm space force. It's the newest military service in the earlier sessions and they're at the risk of repeating what they already addressed. >>Let me start by talking about what space means to DOD and what we're doing directly from my vantage point as part of the acquisition and sustainment arm of the Pentagon. Uh, what I want to share with you today is how the current space strategy ties into the national defense strategy and supports the department's operational objectives. As the director of CFRI SAR. I have come to understand how the integration of CFRI Sarcic. Billy is a powerful asset to enhance the lethality of the joint war fighter. Secretary Lord, our boss, the sec, the undersecretary for acquisition and sustainment is diligent in her pursuit to adapt and modernize acquisition processes, to influence the strategy and to focus our efforts domain are to make our objectives a reality. I think first and foremost, we are building a more lethal force. This joint force will project low Valley and custom contested environments and across all domains through an operationally integrated and resiliency for ISR infrastructure. >>We are also called debating our alliances, deepening interoperability, which is very important in a future fight and collab, collaboratively planning with those partner with us in the fight most significantly for our work in acquisition and sustainment, we continue to optimize the department for greater performance and affordability through reform of the acquisition process. Now space is our newest war fighting domain. And while it is indeed unique, it shares many common traits with the others land, air and sea all are important to the defense of the U S in conflict. No doubt about this. They will be contested and they must be defended. One domain will not win future conflicts in a joint operation in a future fight in the future conflict. They must all succeed. I see three areas being key to a DOD strategic success in space, one, developing our whole of government approach in close partnership with the private sector and our allies to prioritizing our investments in resiliency, innovation, and adaptive operations, and third responding rapidly and effectively to leverage emerging technologies and seize opportunities to advance your strengths, partnerships and alliances. >>Let me emphasize that space is increasingly congested and tested and demanded as essential delete Valley operational effectiveness and the security of our nation. Now the commercialization of space offers a broad set of investments in satellite technology, potential opportunities to leverage those investments and pathways to develop cost efficient space architecture, where the department and the nation. It's funny, there's a new race, a race for space. If you will, between commercial companies buying for dominance of space. Now the joint staff within DOD is currently building an operational construct to employ and engage as a unified force, coordinated across all domains. We call it the joint, all domain command and control. It is the framework that is under development to allow us to conduct integrated operations in the future. The objective of Jesse too is to provide the war fighter access to the decision making information while providing mission assurance of the information and resilience of the underlying terrestrial air in space networks that support them operationally. >>six to maintain seamless integration, adaptation, and employment of our capability. To sense signal connect, transmit, process control, direct, and deliver lethal capabilities against the enemy. We gain a strategic advantage through the integration of these capabilities across all the domains, by providing balance bowel space, awareness, horse protection, and weapons controlled and deployment capabilities. Now successfully any ratings, the systems and capabilities will provide our war fighters overwhelming superiority on the battlefield environment, challenged by near peer adversaries, as well as non state actors in space. The character of its employment is changing, driven by increasing demands, not just by DOD, but by the commercial sector as well. You know, more and more, uh, we see greater use of small satellite systems to address a myriad of emerging questions, ubiquitous communications, awareness, sensor diversity, and many more. Uh, as I said before, the commercial world is pioneering high rate production of small satellites in our efforts to deploy hundreds, if not thousands of nodes space X, Darlene constellation is one example. >>Another one is Amazon's Kiper, uh, Kuyper just received FCC approval to deploy like over 3000 of these different notes. While a number of these companies continue to grow. Some have struggled. They some pointed as one web, uh, nevertheless, the appetite remains strong and DOD is taking advantage of these advances to support our missions. We are currently exploring how to better integrate the DOD activities involving small satellites under the small satellite coordinating activity, scholarly call it. We want to ensure collaboration and interoperability to maximize efficiency in acquisition and operation. When we started this activity on over a year and a half ago, we documented over 70 plus separate small, small sat programs within DOD. And now we've developed a very vibrant community of interest surrounding a small satellites. Now, part of the work we have identified nine focus areas for further development. These are common areas to all systems and by continuing to expand on these, our plan is they enable a standard of practice that can be applied across all of the domains. >>This includes lawn services, ground processing distribution, and of course, a topic of interest to the symposium space security and Chris we'll, we'll talk more about that being the Houston expert, uh, in this area. Uh, one challenge that we can definitely start working on today is workforce development. Cybersecurity's unique as it straddles STEM and security and policy, the trade craft is different. And unfortunately I've seen estimates recently, so suggesting a workforce gap in the next several years, much like the STEM fields, uh, during the next session, I am a part of a panel with precedent, Armstrong, Cal poly, and Steve Jake's the founder of the national security space association to address workforce development. But for this panel, I'll look forward to having further dialogue surrounding space, opera security with Chris and John. Thank you, John >>Bob, thank you for that whole thing, Steven. Yes. Workforce gaps. We need the new skill space is here. Thank you very much. Chris Henson, technical director of space and weapons, cybersecurity solutions for the national security agency. Your statement, >>Thank you for having me. Uh, I'm one of several technical leaders in space at the national security agency. And I'm currently on a joint duty assignment at the office of under secretary of defense for acquisition and sustainment. I work under mr. GUMA hot in the C four ISR area, but almost 63 years ago on the 4th of October, 1957, Sputnik was the first artificial satellite launched by the Soviet union in space. History was made in each of you can continue to write future space history in your careers. And just like in 1957, the U S isn't alone in space to include our close partnerships and longterm activities with organizations like the Japanese space agency, the European space agency, and, uh, the Canadian space agency, just to name a few. And when we tackle cybersecurity per space, we have to address, address the idea that the communications command and control, uh, and those mission datas will transverse networks owned and operated by a variety of partners, not only.go.mil.com.edu, et cetera. We need to have all the partners address the cyber effects of those systems because the risk excepted by one is shared by all and sharing cyber best practices, lessons learned, uh, data vulnerabilities, threat data, mitigation, mitigation procedures, all our valuable takeaways, uh, in expanding this space community, improving overall conditions for healthy environment. So thank you for having me, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you and your audience. And I look forward to the discussion questions. Thank you. >>Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Bob. Okay. I mean open innovation, the internet, you see plenty of examples. The theme here is partners, commercial government. It's going to take a lot of people and tech companies and technologies to make space work. So we asked my first question, Bonnie, we'll start with you is what do you see as the DOD his role in addressing cybersecurity in space? Uh, it's real, uh, it's a new frontier. Um, it's not going away. It's only going to get more innovative, more open, more contested. It seems like a lot to do there. So what's your role in addressing cyber security in space? >>I think our role is to be the leader in developing and only is it the strategy, but the, uh, the implementation plan is to ensure a full of cybersecurity. If you look at the national cyber cyber strategy, I think publishing 2018 calls for like-minded countries, industry academia, and civil society. Once you mentioned John, the support technology development, uh, digital safety policy advocacy, and research you here today, and those listening are fulfilling their strategy. When you, when you develop, enable use cyber hygiene products, as examples of capabilities, you're pushing the goal to fruition. When you know, what's on your network patron network backup, you're in encrypt your network, you're hardening and preventing cyber attacks. And we in government academia in the case of Cal poly civil networks and in commercial companies, we all benefit from doing that cyber security. Uh, and I think Chris will, we'll, we'll definitely back me up on this more than passwords encryption or pharma. It's truly a mindset and a culture of enabling missions to succeed in assured in a resilient fashion. >>Chris, you're taking reaction to, to the cybersecurity challenge involved here, >>That's it, it's starting really at the highest level of governments. We have, uh, you know, the, the recent security policy directive five that just came out just a couple of days ago, recognize all the factors of cybersecurity that need to come into play. And probably the most important outcome of that as mr said, is the leadership role and that leadership, uh, blends out very well into partnership. So partnership with industry partnership with academia partnership, with, uh, other people that are exploring space. And those partnerships lend itself very naturally to sharing cybersecurity issues, topics as we come up with best practices as we come up with mitigation strategies. And as we come up with vulnerabilities and share that information, the, uh, we're not going to go alone in space, just like we're probably not going to go alone in many other industries or areas, uh, that the DOD has to be, uh, involved in many spectrums of deploying to space. >>And that deployment involves as Mr. Guzman said, encryption authentication, knowing what's on the network, knowing the, the fabric of that network. And if nothing else, this, uh, this, uh, internet of things and work from home environment that we've, uh, partaken of these last few months has even explored and expanded that notion even more dramatically as we have people dial in from all over the different, uh, locations, well space will be that natural node that, uh, natural, uh, next network and mesh involvement that we'll have to protect and explore on not just from a terrestrial involvement, but all segments of it. Th the comm segment, the space vehicle and the ground portion, >>No bond. We talked about this in our other segment, um, around with the president of Cal poly, but the operating models of the space force and the DOD and getting space. It's a software defined world, right? So cybersecurity is a real big issue. Cause you have an operating model that's requiring software to power, these low hanging satellites. That's just an extension to the network. It's distributed computing, know what this is. If you understand what technology we do in space, it's no different, it's just a different environment. So it's software defined that just lends itself well to hacking. I mean, if I'm a hacker I'm going, Hey, why not just take out a satellite and crash it down or make the GPS do something different? I mean, it's definitely an attack vector. This is a big deal. It's not just like getting credentials that are cashed on a server. You gotta really protect, >>Right? Because in one hand it space will carry not only, uh, uh, you know, for local national security information. Uh, but the, uh, I feel like at the economic wellbeing, the financial state of allowed a lot of countries and institutions, you know, more and more John lb, they'll be using space assets to, uh, uh, to make, uh, make, make all that happen. Right. So, and if you look at the, you talk, you mentioned the attack vectors in space, you know, it's not just the computers in the ground, but if you look at the whole life cycle for satellite systems in space, you know, that the, the, the tasking that you need to do that the command, the controlling of the vehicle, the data that comes down in the ground, even when you launch the, the birds, the satellites, you know, they only need to be protected because they're all somewhat vulnerable to, uh, to hacking, uh, to cyber attacks. Especially as we grow into commercialization space, it's going to be a lot more people out there playing in this world. It's going to be a lot more companies out there. And, you know, it's hard to track, uh, uh, you know, the, the potential of, of, of foreign influences as an example, and therefore the potential of being vulnerable in terms of the cyber threat. >>Gentlemen, I like you guys said to move on to this leadership role, you mentioned that you want to be a leader. I get it. The DOD is department of defense. That's a new frontier to defend war time zone. You mentioned war time opportunity potentially, but how do you guys assist that's term hat to getting done? Because there's public and private space operations happening, um, there's security challenge. What does being a leader mean? And how does the DOD department of defense assist driving the public and private? Do you lead from a project standpoint, you lead from a funding standpoint? Is it architectural? I mean, you're talking about now a new end to end architecture. It's not just cloud it's on premise. It's in devices, it's offloaded with new AI technology and Nicks and devices. It's IOT, it's all, this is all new, this is all new. What does it mean for the DOD to be a leader and how do you assist others to get involved? And what does that mean? >>Yeah, I think, uh, the one hand, you know, DOD used to lead, uh, in terms of, uh, uh, being the only source of funding for a lot of, uh, highly developmental efforts. Uh, we're seeing a different story in space. Again, I keep going back to the commercialization of space. We're seeing a lot more players, right? So in many ways >>Ally's commercial companies are actually legally leading the R and D uh, of a lot of different technologies. So we want to take, we certainly want to take advantage of that. So from a leadership standpoint, I think we, we, Lucia can come in, you know, by partnering a lot more with, with the commercial companies, uh, in 2022, the DOD released the defense, uh, uh, space strategy as an example that highlights the threats, the challenges and opportunities the United States has faced by, by sending a example of how we, how we, uh, how we counter, uh, the threats that are out there, not just the DOD, but, but the disability and the commercial sector as well. Our current conditions are strong, but we want to use four lines of effort to meet our challenges and capitalize on our desire state space, uh, lines of effort include building a comprehensive military badges space, integrating space into a national joint and combined operations. Like I mentioned before, shaping that strategic environment and cooperating with allies, partners, and industry and other U S governmental agencies, departments, and agencies to advance the cost of space to take full advantage of what space can provide us, uh, in DOD, uh, and the nation. Chris has a domain. Now, what's your take on all that? >>That's because again, it's going to take more people, >>More diverse, potentially more security >>Halls. What's your view on it? >>Well, let's, let's look at how innovation and new technologies can help us in these areas. So, uh, and, and mentioned it a couple of topics that you hit on already. One of the areas that we can improve on is certainly in the, uh, the architecture, uh, where we look at a zero trust architecture, one of the NIST standards that's come about where it talks about the authentication, uh, the need to know a granular approach, this idea of being able to protect, not just data, but the resources and how people can get access to those, whether they're coming in through an identification, authentication Prudential, or, uh, other aspects of, uh, the, the idea of not just anybody should be able to have access to data or anybody should have access once they're on the inside of the network. So that zero trust architecture is, is one approach where we can show some leadership and guidance. >>Another area is in, uh, a topic that you touched on as well was in the software area. So some innovations are coming on very rapidly and strong in this artificial intelligence and machine learning. So if we can take this AI and ML and apply it to our software development areas, they can parse so much information very quickly. And, uh, you know, this vast array of code that's going into system nowadays, and then that frees up our human, uh, explicit talent and developers that can then look at other areas and not focus on minor bawling to Beverly fix a vulnerability. Uh, they, they can really use their unique skills and talents to come up with a better process, a better way, and let the artificial intelligence and machine learning, find those common problems, those, those unknown, hidden lines of code that, uh, get put into a software alarm Prairie, and then pull down over and over again from system to system. So I think between, uh, an architecture leadership role and employee innovation are two areas that we can show, uh, some benefits and process improvement to this whole system. >>That's a great point, Chris, and you think about just the architectural computer architecture, you know, S you know, network attached storage is an advantage software defined there. You could have flash all flash arrays for storage. You could have multiple cores on a device and this new architecture, offloads things, and it's a whole new way to gain efficiencies. I mean, you got Intel, you got Nvidia, you've got armed all the processors all built in. Um, so there's definitely been commercial best practices and benefits to a new kind of architecture that takes advantage of these new things. It's just, just efficiencies. Um, but this brings up the whole supply chain conversation. I want to get your thoughts on this, because there is talk about predatory investments and access and tactics to gain supply chain access to space systems, your thoughts. >>Yeah. It's a serious threat and not just for, uh, the U S uh, space. So supply chain, if you will, is the supply chain. And I says, you know, writ large, I think, uh, I think it's a, it's a, it's a threat that's, that's real, we're we're seeing today. I just saw an example recently, uh, involving, uh, our, I think our launch services were, there was a, uh, a foreign, uh, threat that was those trying to get into a true through with predatory investments. Uh, so, uh, it is something that we need to, uh, be aware of it it's happening, uh, and is continuing to happen. Uh, it's an easy way to gain access, to, uh, do our IP. Uh, and, uh, so it's something that we, uh, are serious about in terms of, uh, awareness and, and countering >>Chris, your thoughts. I mean, we've see, I mean, I'm an open source guy. I was seen it when I grew up in the industry in the eighties, open source became a revolution, but with that, it enabled new tactics for, um, state sponsored attacks on it that became a domain in of itself. Um, that's well-documented and people talk about that all the time in cyber. Now you have open innovation with hardware, software connected systems. This is going to bring supply chain nightmare. How do you track it all? Who's got what software and what device, where the chip come from, who made it, this is the potential is everywhere. How do you see the, these tactics, whether it's a VC firm from another country or this, that, and the other thing startup. >>Yeah. So when we see, when we see coal companies being purchased by foreign investors, and, you know, we can get blocked out of those, whether it's in the food industry, or if it's in a microchip, then that microchip could be used in a cell phone or a satellite or an automobile. So all of our industries that have these companies that are being purchased, or a large born investment influx into those, you know, that could be suspect. And we, we have to be very careful with those, uh, and, and do the tracking of those, especially when those, uh, some of those parts of mechanisms are coming from off shore. And then going again, going back to, uh, the space policy directive five, it calls out for better supply chain, resource management, the tracking, the knowing the pedigree and the, the quantitative of ability of knowing where those software libraries came from, where the parts came from and the tracking and delivery of that from an end to end system. >>And typically when we have a really large vendor, they can, they can do that really well. But when we have a subcontractor to a subcontractor, to a subcontractor, their resources may not be such that they can do that. Try tracking in mitigation for counterfeits or fraudulent materials going into our systems. So it's a very difficult challenge, and we want to ensure as best we can that as we ingest those parts, as we ingest those software libraries and technologies into the system, that, uh, before we employ them, we have to do some robust testing. And I don't want to say that the last line of defense, but that certainly is a mechanism for finding out, do the systems perform as they stated, uh, on a test bench or a flat set, whatever the case may be before we actually deploy it. And then we're relying on the output or the data that comes from that, that system that may have some corrupt or suspect parts in it. >>Great point, this federal grant, >>The problem with space systems is kind of, you know, is once you, once you launch the bird or the sunlight, uh, your access to it is, is diminished significantly, right? Unless you, you go up there and take it down. Uh, so, you know, kind of to Chris's point, we need to be able to test all the different parts of insurer that is performing as, as described there ass, I spent as specified, uh, with, with good knowledge that it's, uh, it's, uh, it's trustworthy. Uh, and, uh, so we that all on the ground before we, we take it up to launch it. >>It's funny. You want agility, you want speed and you want security, and you want reliability and risk management all aggressive, and it's a technical problem. It says it's a business model problem. I'd love to get real quick. Before we jump into some of the more workforce and gap issues on the personnel side, have you guys should just take a minute to explain quickly what's the federal view. If you had to kind of summarize the federal view of the DOD and the roll with it wants to take, so all the people out there on the commercial side or students out there who are, you know, wanting to jump in, what is the current modern federal view of space cybersecurity. >>Chris, why don't you take that on I'll follow up. Okay. Uh, I don't know that I can give you the federal view, but I can certainly give you the department of defense. That cybersecurity is extremely important. And as our vendors and our suppliers, uh, take on a very, very large and important role, one area that we're looking at improving on is a cyber certification maturity model, where we, where we look at the vendors and how they implement an employee cyber hygiene. So that guidance in and of itself shows the emphasis of cyber security that when we want to write a contract or a vendor, uh, for, for a purchase, that's going to go into a space system. We'd like to know from a third party audit capability, can that vendor, uh, protect and defend to some extent the amount that that part or piece or software system is going to have a cyber protection already built into it from that vendor, from the ground floor up before it even gets put into a larger system. >>So that shows a level of the CMMC process that we've thought about and, uh, started to employ, uh, beginning in 2021 and will be further built on in, in the out years. How, how important the DOD takes that. And other parts of the government are looking at this, in fact, other nations are looking at the CMMC model. So I think it shows a concern in very many areas, uh, not just in the department of defense that they're going to adopt an approach like this. Uh, so it shows the, the pluses and the benefits of a cybersecurity model that, uh, all can build on boggy reaction. Yeah, I'll just, uh, I'll just add to that, John, you, you, you, you asked earlier about, you know, how do we, uh, track, uh, commercial entities or, or people in the space and cyber security domains? Uh, I can tell you that, uh, at least my view of it, you know, space and cyber security are new, it's exciting, it's challenging a lot technical challenges there. So I think in >>Terms of attracting the right people, personnel to work those areas, uh, I think it's, it's not only intellectually challenging, uh, but it's important for, for the dependency that NASA States, uh, and it's important for, for, for economic security, uh, writ large for, for us as well. So I think, uh, in terms of a workforce and trying to get people interested in, in those domains, uh, I hope that they see the same thing we do in terms of, of the challenges and the opportunities it presents itself in the future. >>Awesome. I love your talk on intro track there falling. You mentioned, uh, the three key areas of DOD sec success, developing a government whole government approach to partnership with the private sector. I think that's critical and the allies prioritizing the right investments on resilience, innovation, adaptive operations, and responding to rapidly to effectively emerging technology. So you can be fast, all think are all things. I all, all those things are relevant. So given that, I want to get your thoughts on the defense space strategy in 2020, the DOD released dispense defense space, strategy, highlighting threats, and challenges and opportunities. How would you summarize those threats and those challenges and opportunities? What are the, what are those things that you're watching in the defense space area? Right. >>Well, I think, I think I saw, as I said before, of course, as well, you know, uh, or, or seeing that a space will be highly contested, uh, because it's a critical element in our, in our war fighting construct, uh, Dwayne, a future conflict, I think we need to, to win space as well. So when you, when you look at our near peer adversaries, there's a lot of efforts, uh, in trying to, to, to take that advantage away from the United States. So, so the threat is real, uh, and I think it's going to continue to evolve and grow. Uh, and the more we use space, both commercial and government, I think you're going to see a lot more when these threads some AFAs itself, uh, in, in forms of cyber, cyber attacks, or even kinetic attacks in some cases as needed. Uh, so yeah, so with the, the, the threat is need growing, uh, space is congested, as we talked about, it will continually be contested in the future as well. So we need to have, uh, like we do now in, in, in all the other domains, a way to defend it. And that's what we're working on with India, with the, how do we pilot with tech, our assets in space, and how do we make sure that the data information that traverses through space assets are trust 40, um, and, uh, and, and, and free of any, uh, uh, interference >>Chris, exciting time. I'm your, if you're in technology, um, this is crossing many lines here, tech society will war time, defense, new areas, new tech. I mean, it's security, it's intoxicating at many levels, because if you think about it, it's not one thing. It's not one thing anymore. It spans a broader spectrum, these opportunities. >>Yeah. And I, and I think that expansion is, is a natural outgrowth from, as our microprocessors and chips and technology continue to shrink smaller and smaller. You know, we, we think of our, our cell phones and our handheld devices and tablets, and so on that have just continued to, uh, get embedded in our everyday society, our everyday way of life. And that's a natural extension when we start applying those to space systems. When we think of smallsats and cube sets and the technology that's, uh, can be repurposed into, uh, a small vehicle and the cost has come down so dramatically that, you know, we, we can afford to get a rapid experiments, rapid, um, exploitations and, and different approaches in space and learn from those and repeat them very quickly and very rapidly. And that applies itself very well to an agile development process, dev sec ops, and this notion of spins and cycles and refreshing and re uh, addressing priorities very quickly so that when we do put a new technology up, that the technology is very lean and cutting edge, and hasn't been years and years in the making, but it's, uh, relevant and new, and the, uh, the cybersecurity and the vulnerabilities of that have to be addressed because of, and allow that DevSecOps process to take place so that we can look at those vulnerabilities and get that new technology and those new, new experiments and demonstrations in space and get lessons learned from them over and over again. >>Well, that brings us to the next big topic I want to spend the remainder of our time on that is workforce this next generation. If I wasn't so old, I would quit my job and I would join medially. It's so much, it's a fun, it's exciting. And it's important. And this is what I think is a key point is that cybersecurity in and of itself has got a big gap of shortage of workers, nevermind, adding space to it. So this is, uh, the intersection of space and cybersecurity. There is a workforce opportunity for this next generation, a young person to person re-skilling, this is a big deal. Bong, you have thoughts on this. It's not just STEM, it's everything. >>Yeah. It's everything, you know, uh, the opportunities would have in space it's significant and tremendous. And I think, uh, if I were young, again, as you pointed out, John, uh, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm lucky that I'm in this domain in this world and I started years ago. Uh, but it continues to be exciting, uh, lots of, lots of opportunities, you know, and when you, when you look at, uh, some of the commercial space, uh, systems that are being, being put up, uh, if you look at, I mentioned Starlink before, and, and, uh, Amazon's Kuyper constellation. These guys are talking about couple of thousand satellites in space to provide ubiquitous communications for internet globally and that sort of thing. Uh, and they're not the only ones that are out there producing capability. Uh, we're seeing a lot more commercial imagery products being developed by bike, by companies, both within the U S and, and, uh, foreign foreign elements as well. So I think it's an exciting time to be in space. Certainly lots of opportunities, there's technical challenges, uh, galore in terms of, you know, not only the overcoming the physics of space, but being able to operate, uh, flexibly, uh, in, uh, get the most you can out of the capabilities we have, uh, uh, operating up as high as being cool. I mean, everyone looks at launch. >>She gets millions of views on live streams, the on demand, reruns get millions and millions of views. Um, it's, there's a lot of things there. Um, so Chris, what specifically could you share are things that people would work on? Um, jobs skills, what are some, what's the aperture, what's it look like if you zoom out and look at all the opportunities from a scale standpoint, what's out there, >>We'll talk to the aperture, but I want to give a shout out to our space force. And I mean, their, their job is to train and equip, uh, future space and, uh, that, that space talent. And I think that's going to be a huge plus up, uh, to have, uh, uh, a space force that's dedicated to training equipping, uh, the, an acquisition and a deployment model that, uh, will benefit not just the other services, but all of our national defense and our, uh, you know, our, our strategic way of, uh, how, how this company, country, employees space, uh, altogether. So having, having a space for us, I think, as a, is a huge, uh, a huge issue. And then to get to that aperture aspect of, of what you're, what you're asking and, you know, that addresses a larger workforce. Uh, we need so many different talents in, in this area. >>Uh, we can, we can have, we can employ a variety of people, uh, from technical writers to people who write, uh, write in developed software to those who, uh, are bending metal and actually, uh, working in a hardware environment. And, uh, those that do planning and launch operations and all of those spectrums and issues of jobs, or are directly related to a workforce that can contribute to, to space. And then once that data gets to the ground and employed out to a user, whether it's a data or we're looking at, uh, from a sensor recent, uh, recent events on, uh, shipping lanes, those types of things. So space has such a wide and diverse swath that the aperture's really wide open, uh, for a variety of backgrounds. And, and those that, uh, really just want to take an opportunity, take a, take a technical degree or a degree that, uh, can apply itself to a tough problem, uh, because they certainly exist in space. And we can, we can use that mindset of problem solving, whether you come at it from a hacker mindset, an ethical, a white hat approach to testing and vulnerability exploration, or somebody who knows how to actually, um, make, uh, operations, uh, safer, better, uh, through space situation awareness. So there's a, there's a huge swath of opportunity for us >>Bon talk about the, um, the cyber security enabled environment, the use cases that are possible when you have cybersecurity in play with space systems, um, which is in and of itself, a huge range of jobs, codings supply chain. We just talked about a bunch of them. There's still more connected use cases that go beyond that, that, that are enabled by it. If you think about it, and this is what the students at Cal poly and every other college and university community college, you name it, or watching videos on YouTube, anyone with a brain can jump in. If they, if they see the future, it's an all net new space force is driving awareness, but there's a whole slew of these new use cases that I call space enabled by cybersecurity systems. Your thoughts. >>Absolutely. I, you know, I was, uh, had planned on attending the, uh, uh, the cyber challenge that's Cal poly had planned in June, of course, a pandemic, uh, uh, took care of that plan. But, but I was intrigued by, by the approach that the Cal poly was taking with, with, uh, middle school and high school kids of, of, of, of exposing him to a problem set here. You have a, a satellite that came down from space, uh, and, uh, part of the challenge was to do Porensic analysis on the debris, uh, the remaining pieces of the sound like to figure out what happened. Uh, it had a, uh, a cybersecurity connotation. It was hacked. It was attacked by, by cyber threat nation, took it down. And the beauty of having these kids kind of play with, with the remaining parts of the satellite figure out what happened. >>So I was pretty exciting. I was really looking forward to participating in that, but again, the pandemic kind of blew that up, but I, I look forward to future events like that to, to get our young people intrigued and interested in, uh, in this new field of space. Now, you know, Chris was talking earlier about opportunities, the opportunity that you talk about, you know, while I would like to have people come to the government, right. To help us out. It's not, it's not just focused on government, right? There's not lots of opportunities in commercial space. I, if you will, uh, for, for a lot of talent to, uh, uh, to have, uh, to participate in. So the challenge is a man's government and the commercial sector, John, >>I mean, you get the hardcore, you know, I want to work for the DOD. I want to work for NSA. I want to work for the government. You clearly got people who want to have that kind of mission, but for the folks out there, Chris and bong that are like, I'll do I qualify it? It's like the black box of the DOD. It's like a secret thing. You got any clearance, you've got to get all these certifications. And you've got to take all kinds of tests and background checks. And, um, is it like that? And will that continue? Cause some people might say, Hey, can I even get involved? What do I do? So I know there's some private partnerships going on with companies out there in the private sector. So this is now a new, you guys seem to be partnering and going outside the comfort zone of the old kind of tactical things. What are some of those opportunities that people could get involved that they might not know about >>PR for NSA, there's a variety of workforce, uh, initiatives that, uh, uh, for anybody from a high school work study can take advantage of to, uh, those that would like have to have internships. And those that are in a traditional academic environment, there's, uh, several NSA schools across the country that have a academic and cyber acts, uh, sites of excellence that participate in projects that are shepherded and mentored by those at NSA that can get those tough problems that don't have maybe a classified or super sensitive, uh, nature that that can be worked in and in an academia environment. So, so those are two or three examples of how somebody can break into, uh, the, uh, an intelligence organization and the, and the other agencies have those, uh, opportunities as well across the intelligence community and the, the partnership between and collaborative collaboration between private industry and the agencies and the department of defense just continue to grow over and over again. And even myself being able to take care advantage of a joint duty assignment between my home organization and the Pentagon just shows another venue of somebody that's in one organization can partner and leverage with another organization as well. So I'm an example of, of that partnering that's going on today. >>So there's some innovation, bong, non traditional pathways to find talent. What are out there? What are new, what are these new nontraditional ways >>I was going to add to what Chris was, was mentioning John? Yeah. Even within view and under the purview of our chief information officer, back in 2013, the deputy surfed dirty defense signed the, uh, what we call the DOD cyberspace workforce strategy, uh, into effect. And that included a program called the cyber information technology exchange program. It's an exchange program in which a, uh, you know, private sector employee and worked for the DOD in cyber security positions, uh, span across multiple mission critical areas. So this is one opportunity to learn, uh, you know, in inside the DOD what's happening as a private sector person, if you will, uh, going back to what we talked about, you know, kinda, uh, opportunities, uh, within the government for, for somebody who might be interested, uh, you know, you don't have to be super smart, Bork and space. Uh, there's a lot of like, like Chris pointed out, there's a lot of different areas that we need to have people down within people to do, uh, to conduct the mission space. So you don't have to be mathematician mathematician. You don't have to be an engineer to succeed in this business. I think there's plenty of opportunities for, for any types of, of talent, any type of academic disciplines that, that, that, that they're out there. >>And I think, you know, Chris is shout out to the space force is really worth calling out again, because I think to me, that's a big deal. It's a huge deal. It's going to change the face of our nation and society. So super, super important. And that's going to rise the tide. I think it's gonna create, uh, some activation, uh, for a younger generation, certainly, and kind of new opportunities, new problems to solve new threats to take on and, and move it on. So really super conversation space in cybersecurity, the department of defense perspective, Von and Chris, thank you for taking the time. I'd love you guys just to close out. We'll start with you bong. And then Chris summarize for the folks watching, whether it's a student at Cal poly or other university or someone in industry and government, what is the department of defense perspective for space cybersecurity? >>Chris, won't go and take that on. I started, thank you. Uh, cyber security applies to much more than just the launch and download of mission data or human led exploration and the planning, testing, and experiments in the lab prior to launch require that cyber protection, just as much as any other space link, ground segment, trust rail network, or user data, and any of that loss of intellectual property or proprietary data is an extremely valuable and important, and really warrants, cybersecurity safeguards in any economic espionage or data exfiltration or denied access to that data I E ransomware or some other, uh, attack that can cripple any business or government endeavor. Uh, no matter how small or large, if it's left in our economic backbone, uh, clearly depends on space and GPS is more than just a direction finding our banking needs that a T and timing from P and T or whether it says systems that protect our shipping and airline industry of whether they can navigate and go through a particular storm or not, uh, even fighting forest fires picked up by a remote sensor. >>All those space-based assets, uh, require protection from spoofing date, uh, data denial or total asset loss. An example would be if a satellite sensitive optics were intentionally pointed at the sun and damaged, or if a command, uh, to avoid collision with another space vehicle was delayed or disrupted or a ground termination command. As we just saw just a few days ago at T minus three seconds prior to liftoff, if those all don't go as planned, uh, those losses are real and can be catastrophic. So the threat to space is pervasive real and genuine, and your active work across all those platforms is a necessary and appreciated. And your work in this area is critical, uh, going forward going forward. Uh, thank you for this opportunity to speak with you and, uh, talking on this important topic. >>Thank you, Chris Henson, goodbye. >>Closing remarks. Yeah. Likewise, John, uh, again, uh, as, as Chris said, thank you for, for the opportunity to discuss this very important, uh, around space, cyber security, as well as addressing, uh, at the end there, we were talking about workforce development and the need to have, uh, people, uh, in the mix for four features. We discussed with you. We need to start that recruiting early, uh, as we're doing to address, uh, the STEM gap today, we need to apply the same thing for cybersecurity. We, we absolutely need smart, innovative people to protect both Iraq. Anomic wellbeings a nation as well as our national defense. So this is the right conversation to have at this time, John and I, again, thank you and our Cal poly hose for, or, uh, having a symposium and, and having this opportunity to have this dialogue. Thank you, >>Gentlemen. Thank you for your time and great insights. We couldn't be there in person. We're here virtual for the space and cybersecurity symposium, 2020, the Cal poly I'm Jennifer with Silicon angle and the cube, your host. Thank you for watching.

>> Voiceover: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, covering Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly. >> Hello everyone? Welcome to the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly and theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. We have a great session here. Space cybersecurity, the Department of Defense perspective. We have Bong Gumahad, Director of C4ISR, Directorate Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment for the DOD. And Chris Henson, Technical Director Space and Weapons, Cybersecurity Solutions for the National Security Agency. Gentlemen, thank you for taking the time for this awesome session. >> Thank you, John. >> Thank you. >> So we're going to talk about the perspective of the DOD relative to space cybersecurity. A lot going on, congestion, contention, freedom, evolution, innovation. So Bong, I'd like to have you start with your opening statement on how you see the space cybersecurity perspective. >> John, thanks for the intro, really appreciate it. First, let me give my thanks to Cal Poly for convening the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium this year. And despite the pandemic, the organization and the content delivery is pretty impressive. I really foot stomping what can possibly be done with a number of these virtual platforms. This has been awesome, thanks for the opportunity. I also want to recognize my colleague, Chris Henson from NSA, who is actually assigned to our staff at the OUSD, but he brings both policy and technical perspective in this whole area. So I think you'll find his commentary and positions on things very refreshing for today's seminar. Now space cybersecurity is a pretty interesting terminology for us all. Cybersecurity means protecting against cyber threats. And it's really more than just computers here on earth. Space is the newest war fighting domain and cybersecurity is perhaps even more of a challenge in this domain than others. I'm sure Lieutenant General Thompson and Major John Shaw discuss the criticality of this new Space Force. It's the newest military service in the earlier sessions and they're at the risk of repeating what they already addressed. Let me start by talking about what space means to DOD and what we're doing directly from my advantage point as part of the Acquisition and Sustainment arm of the Pentagon. Well, what I want to share with you today is how the current space strategy ties into the National Defense strategy and supports the department's operational objectives. As the director of C4ISR, I have come to understand how the integration of C4ISR capability is a powerful asset to enhance the lethality of the joint war fighter. Secretary Lord, our boss, the Under Secretary for Acquisition and Sustainment is diligent in her pursuit to adapt and modernize acquisition processes, to influence the strategy and to focus our efforts to make our objectives a reality. I think first and foremost, we are building a more lethal force. This joint force will project lethality in contested environments and across all domains through an operationally integrated and resiliency 4ISR infrastructure. We are also cultivating our alliances, deepening interoperability, which is very important in a future fight and collaboratively planning with those who partner with us in the fight. Most significantly for our work in acquisition and sustainment, we continue to optimize the department for greater performance and affordability through reform of the acquisition process. Now space is our newest fighting domain. And while it is indeed unique, it shares many common traits with the others, land, air and sea. All are important to the defense of the US. In conflict, no doubt about this, they will be contested and they must be defended. One domain will not win future conflicts and in a joint operation in a future fight and the future conflict they must all succeed. I see three areas being key toward DOD strategic success in space. One, developing our whole of government approach in close partnership with the private sector and our allies. Two, prioritizing our investments in resiliency, innovation and adaptive operations. And third, responding rapidly and effectively to leverage emerging technologies and seize opportunities to advance US strengths, partnerships and alliances. Let me emphasize that space is increasingly congested and tested and demanded as essential to lethality operational effectiveness and the security of our nation. Now the commercialization space offers a broad set of investments in satellite technology, potential opportunities to leverage those investments and pathways to develop cost efficient space architecture, for the department and the nation. It's funny, there's a new race, a race for space, if you will, between commercial companies buying for dominance of space. Now the joint staff within DOD is currently building an operational construct to employ and engage as a unified force coordinated across all domains. We call it the Joint All Domain Command and Control, JADC2. It is the framework that is under development to allow us to conduct integrated operations in the future. The objective of JADC2 is to provide the war fighter access to the decision making information while providing mission assurance of the information and resilience of the underlying terrestrial air in space networks that support them. Operationally, JADC2 seeks to maintain seamless integration, adaptation, and employment of our capability to sense signal, connect, transmit, process control, direct, and deliver lethal capabilities against the enemy. We gain a strategic advantage through the integration of these capabilities across all the domains, by providing balance space awareness, horse protection, and weapons controlled and deployment capabilities. Now successfully any ratings in these systems and capabilities will provide our war fighters overwhelming superiority on the battlefield in an environment challenged by near peer adversaries, as well as non state actors. In space, the character of its employment is changing, driven by increasing demands, not just by DOD, but by the commercial sector as well. You know, more and more we see greater use of small satellite systems to address a myriad of emerging questions, ubiquitous communications, awareness, sensory diversity, and many more. As I said before, the commercial world is pioneering high rate production of small satellites in their efforts to deploy hundreds, if not thousands of nodes. SpaceX Starlink Constellation is one example. Another one is Amazon's Kuiper. Kuiper just received FCC approval to deploy like over 3000 of these different nodes. While a number of these companies continue to grow, some have struggled. Case in point is OneWeb. Nevertheless, the appetite remains strong and DOD is taken advantage of these advances to support our missions. We are currently exploring how to better integrate the DOD activities involving small satellites under the small satellite coordinating activity, scholarly call it. We want to ensure collaboration and interoperability to maximize efficiency in acquisition and operation. When we started this activity on over a year and a half ago, we documented over 70 plus separate small sat programs within DOD. And now we've developed a very vibrant community of interest surrounding our small satellites. Now, part of the work we have identified nine focus areas for further development. These are common areas to all systems and by continuing to expand on these, our plan is to enable a standard of practice that can be applied across all of the domains. This includes lawn services, ground processing distribution, and of course, a topic of interest to the symposium space security and Chris will talk more about that, being that he's the expert in this area. One challenge that we can definitely start working on today is workforce development. Cybersecurity is unique as it straddles STEM and security and policy. The trade craft is different. And unfortunately I've seen estimates recently suggesting a workforce gap in the next several years, much like the STEM fields. During the next session, I am a part of a panel with president Armstrong at Cal Poly, and Steve Jacques, the founder of the National Security Space Association to address workforce development. But for this panel, I'll look forward to having this dialogue surrounding space cybersecurity with Chris and John. Thank you, John. >> Bong, thank you for that opening statement and yes, workforce gaps, we need the new skill space is here. Thank you very much. Chris Henson's Technical Director of Space and Weapons, Cybersecurity Solutions for the National Security Agency. Your opening statement. >> Thank you for having me. I'm one of several technical leaders in space at the National Security Agency. And I'm currently on a joint duty assignment at the office of Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment. I work under Mr. Gumahad in the C4ISR area. But almost 63 years ago, on the 4th of October, 1957, Sputnik was the first artificial satellite launched by the Soviet Union and space history was made. And each of you can continue to write future space history in your careers. And just like in 1957, the US isn't alone in space to include our close partnerships and longterm activities with organizations like the Japanese Space Agency, the European Space Agency and the Canadian Space Agency, just to name a few. And when we tackle cybersecurity per space, we have to address the idea that the communications command and control and those mission datas will transverse networks owned and operated by a variety of partners, not only .go, .mil, .com, .edu, et cetera. We need to have all the partners address the cyber effects of those systems because the risk accepted by one is shared by all. And sharing cyber best practices, lessons learned, data vulnerabilities, threat data mitigation procedures, all our valuable takeaways in expanding the space community, improving overall conditions for healthy environment. So thank you for having me, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you and your audience. And I look forward to the discussion questions, thank you. >> Thank you, Chris, thank you, Bong. Okay, I mean, open innovation, the internet, you see plenty of examples. The theme here is partners, commercial, government. It's going to take a lot of people and tech companies and technologies to make space work. So we asked my first question, Bong, we'll start with you is what do you see as the DOD's role in addressing cybersecurity in space? It's real, it's a new frontier. It's not going away, it's only going to get more innovative, more open, more contested. It seems like a lot to do there. What's your role in addressing cyber security in space? >> I think our role is to be the leader in developing not only is it the strategy, but the implementation plans to ensure a full of cybersecurity. If you look at the National Cyber Strategy, I think published in 2018, calls for like-minded countries, industry academia, and civil society. Once you mentioned John, the support technology development, digital safety policy, advocacy, and research. You here today, and those listening are fulfilling their strategy. When you develop, enable use cyber hygiene products as examples and capabilities, you're pushing the goal to provision. When you know what's on your network, patch network, backup and encrypt your network, you're hardening and preventing cyber attacks. And we in government academia, in the case of Cal Poly, civil networks and in commercial companies, we all benefit from doing that. Cyber security, and I think Chris will definitely back me up on this, more than passwords encryption or firewall. It's truly a mindset and a culture of enabling mission to succeed in assured and in a resilient fashion. >> Chris, you're take and reaction to the cybersecurity challenge involved here. >> It's starting really at the highest level of governments. We have, you know, the recent security policy Directive-5 that just came out just a couple of days ago, recognize all the factors of cybersecurity that need to come into play. And probably the most important outcome of that as Mr. Gumahad said, is the leadership role. And that leadership blends out very well into partnership. So partnership with industry, partnership with academia, partnership with other people that are exploring space. And those partnerships blend itself very naturally to sharing cybersecurity issues, topics, as we come up with best practices, as we come up with mitigation strategies, and as we come up with vulnerabilities and share that information. We're not going to go alone in space, just like we're probably not going to go alone in many other industries or areas. That the DOD has to be involved in many spectrums of deploying to space. And that deployment involves, as Mr. Gumahad said, encryption, authentication, knowing what's on the network, knowing the fabric of that network, and if nothing else, this internet of things and work from home environment that we've partaken of these last few months has even explored and expanded that notion even more dramatically as we have people dial in from all over the different locations. Well, space will be that natural node, that natural next network in measure involvement that we'll have to protect and explore on, not just from a terrestrial involvement, but all segments of it. The calm segment, the space vehicle, and the ground portion. >> You know, Bong, we talked about this in our other segment around with the president of Cal Poly, but the operating models of the Space Force and of the DOD and getting to space. But it's a software defined world, right? So cybersecurity is a real big issue 'cause you have an operating model that's requiring software to power these low hanging satellites. That's just an extension to the network. It's distributed computing, we know what this is. If you understand what technology we do in space, it's no different, it's just a different environment so it's software defined. That just lends itself well to hacking. I mean, if I'm a hacker I'm going, "Hey, why not just take out a satellite and crash it down "or make the GPS do something different?" I mean, it's definitely an attack vector. This is a big deal. It's not just like getting credentials that are cashed on a server, you got to really protect. >> Right, because in one hand it space will carry not only focal national security information, but if you look at the economic wellbeing, the financial state of a lot of countries, institutions, you know, more and more John, they'll be using space assets to make all that happen. So, and if you look at the, you mentioned the attack vectors in space. It's not just the computers in the ground, but if you look at the whole life cycle for satellite systems in space, the tasking that you need to do, the command and controlling of the vehicle, the data that comes down in the ground, even when you launch the birds, the satellites, you know, they all need to be protected because they're all somewhat vulnerable to hacking, to cyber attacks. Especially as we grow into commercialization space, it's going to be a lot more people out there playing in this world. It's going to be a lot more companies out there. And, you know, it's hard to track, the potential of foreign influences as an example, and therefore the potential of being vulnerable in terms of the cyber threat. >> Gentlemen, like you guys said to move on to this leadership role, Bong, you mentioned it. You want to be a leader, I get it, the DOD is Department of Defense, it's a new frontier to defend war time zone, you mentioned war time opportunity potentially. But how do you guys assist that's term hat to getting done? Because there's public and private space operations happening, there's security challenge. What does being a leader mean? And how does the DOD, Department of Defense assist driving the public and private? Do you lead from a project standpoint? Do you lead from a funding standpoint? Is it architectural? I mean, you're talking about now a new end-to-end architecture. It's not just cloud it's on premise, it's in devices, it's offloaded with new AI technology and nix and devices. It's IOT, it's all this and all new. This is all new. What does it mean for the DOD to be a leader and how do you assist others to get involved? And what does that mean? >> Yeah, I think the one hand, you know, DOD used to lead in terms of being the only source of funding for a lot of highly developmental efforts. We're seeing a different story in space. Again, I keep going back to the commercialization of space. We're seeing a lot more players, right? So in many ways allies commercial companies are actually leading the R&D of a lot different technology. So we certainly want to take advantage of that. So from a leadership standpoint, I think leadership can come in, by partnering a lot more with the commercial companies. In 2020, the DOD released the Defense Space Strategy, as an example, that highlights the threats, the challenges and opportunities the United States has faced by setting example of how we counter the threats that are out there, not just the DOD, but the civilian and the commercial sector as well. Our current conditions are strong, but we want to use four lines of effort to meet our challenges and capitalize on our desire to state space. Our lines of effort include building a comprehensive military badges space, integrating space into a national joint and combined operations, like I mentioned before. Shaping that strategic environment and cooperating with allies, partners in industry and other US governmental departments and agencies to advance the cost of space. To take full advantage of what space can provide us in DOD and the nation. >> Chris as a domain now, what's your take on all of this? Because again, it's going to take more people, more diverse, potentially more security hauls. What's your view on this? >> Well, let's look at how innovation and new technologies can help us in these areas. So, and mentioned it a couple of topics that you hit on already. One of the areas that we can improve on is certainly in the architecture. Where we look at a zero trust architecture, one of the NIST standards that's come about. Where it talks about the authentication, the need to know a granular approach, this idea of being able to protect, not just data, but the resources and how people can get access to those, whether they're coming in through an identification, authentication credential, or other aspects of the idea of not just anybody should be able to have access to data or anybody should have access once they're on the inside of the network. So that zero trust architecture is one approach where we can show some leadership and guidance. Another area is in a topic that you touched on as well, was in the software area. So some innovations are coming on very rapidly and strong in this artificial intelligence and machine learning. So if we can take this AI and ML and apply it to our software development areas, they can parse so much information very quickly. And you know, this vast array of software code that's going into system nowadays. And then that frees up our human exquisite talent and developers that can then look at other areas and not focus on minor vulnerability, fix a vulnerability. They can really use their unique skills and talents to come up with a better process, a better way, and let the artificial intelligence and machine learning, find those common problems, those unknown hidden lines of code that get put into a software library and then pull down over and over again from system to system. So I think between an architecture leadership role and employee innovation are two areas that we can show some benefits and process improvement to this whole system. >> That's a great point, Chris, and you think about just the architectural computer architecture network attached storage is an advantage software defined there. You could have flash, all flash arrays for storage. You could have multiple cores on a device. And this new architecture, offloads things, and it's a whole new way to gain efficiencies. I mean, you got Intel, you got Nvidia, you've got armed, all the processors all built in. So there's definitely been commercial best practices and benefits to a new kind of architecture that takes advantage of these new things. It's just efficiencies. But this brings up the whole supply chain conversation. I want to get your thoughts on this because there is talk about predatory investments and access and tactics to gain supply chain access to space systems, your thoughts? >> Yeah, it's a serious threat and not just for the US space supply chain, if you will, is the supply chain you access with large, I think it's a threat that's this real we're seeing today. I just saw an example recently involving, I think our law and services, where there was a foreign threat that was trying to get into a troop through with predatory investments. So it is something that we need to be aware of, it's happening and will continue to happen. It's an easy way to gain access to do our IP. And so it's something that we are serious about in terms of awareness and countering. >> Chris, your thoughts? I mean, I'm an open source guy. We've seen it when I grew up in the industry in the '80s open source became a revolution. But with that, it enabled new tactics for state sponsored attacks and that became a domain in of itself. That's well-documented and people talk about that all the time in cyber. Now you have open innovation with hardware, software connected systems. This is going to bring a supply chain nightmare. How do you track it all? (chuckles) Who's got what software and what device... Where the chip from? Who made it? Just the potential is everywhere. How do you see these tactics? Whether it's a VC firm from another country or this, that, and the other thing, startup, big company-- >> Yeah, so when we see coal companies being purchased by foreign investors, and, you know, we can get blocked out of those, whether it's in the food industry, or if it's in a microchip. Then that microchip could be used in a cell phone or a satellite or an automobile. So all of our are industries that have these companies that are being purchased or a large born investment influx into those, they can be suspect. And we have to be very careful with those and do the tracking of those, especially when those, some of those parts and mechanisms are coming from off shore. And again, going back to the Space Policy Directive-5, it calls out for better supply chain, resource management, the tracking, the knowing the pedigree and the quantitative ability of knowing where those software libraries came from, where the parts came from, and the tracking and delivery of that from an end-to-end system. And typically when we have a really large vendor, they can do that really well. But when we have a subcontractor to a subcontractor, to a subcontractor, their resources may not be such that they can do that tracking in mitigation for counterfeits or fraudulent materials going into our systems. So it's a very difficult challenge, and we want to ensure as best we can that as we ingest those parts, as we ingest those software libraries and technologies into the system, that before we employ them, we have to do some robust testing. And I don't want to say that's the last line of defense, but that certainly is a mechanism for finding out do the systems perform as they stated on a test bench or a flat set, whatever the case may be, before we actually deploy it. And then we're relying on the output or the data that comes from that system that may have some corrupt or suspect parts in it. >> Great point, this federal views-- >> The problem with space systems is kind of, you know, is once you launch the bird or the satellite, your access to it is diminished significantly, right? Unless you go up there and take it down. So, you know, kind of to Chris's point, we need to be able to test all the different parts to ensure that is performing as described there, as specified with good knowledge that it's trustworthy. And so we do that all on the ground before we take it up to launch it. >> It's funny, you want agility, you want speed, and you security, and you want reliability, and risk management. All aggressive, and it's a technical problem, it's a business model problem. Love to get real quick before we jump into some of the more workforce and gap issues on the personnel side, have you guys to just take a minute to explain quickly what's the federal view? If you had to kind of summarize the federal view of the DOD and the role with it wants to take, so all the people out there on the commercial side or students out there who are wanting to jump in, what is the current modern federal view of space cybersecurity? >> Chris, why don't you take that on and I'll follow up. >> Okay, I don't know that I can give you the federal view, but I can certainly give you the Department of Defense that cyber security is extremely important. And as our vendors and our suppliers take on a very, very large and important role, one area that we're looking at improving on is a cyber certification maturity model, where we look at the vendors and how they implement and employee cyber hygiene. So that guidance in and of itself shows the emphasis of cyber security. That when we want to write a contract or a vendor for a purchase that's going to go into a space system, we'd like to know from a third party audit capability, can that vendor protect and defend to some extent the amount that that part or piece or software system is going to have a cyber protection already built into it from that vendor, from the ground floor up, before it even gets put into a larger system. So that shows a level of the CMMC process that we've thought about and started to employ beginning in 2021 and will be further built on in the out years. How important the DOD takes that. And other parts of the government are looking at this. In fact, other nations are looking at the CMMC model. So I think it shows a concern in very many areas, not just in the Department of Defense, that they're going to adopt an approach like this. So it shows the pluses and the benefits of a cybersecurity model that all can build on. >> Bong, your reaction. >> Yeah, I'll just add to that. John, you asked earlier about, you know, how do we track commercial entities or people into the space and cyber security domains? I can tell you that at least my view of it, space and cybersecurity are new. It's exciting, it's challenging, a lot of technical challenges there. So I think in terms of attracting the right people and personnel to work those areas, I think it's not only intellectually challenging, but it's important for the defensing and near States. And it's important for economic security at large for us as well. So I think in terms of a workforce and trying to get people interested in those domains, I hope that they see the same thing we do in terms of the challenges and the opportunities it presents itself in the future. >> Awesome, I loved your talk on intro track there. Bong, you mentioned the three key areas of DOD success, developing a whole government approach to partnership with the private sector. I think that's critical, and the allies. Prioritizing the right investments on resilience, innovation, adaptive operations, and responding to rapidly to effectively emerging technology seem to be fast. I think all those things are relevant. So given that, I want to get your thoughts on the Defense Space Strategy. In 2020, the DOD released dispense Defense Space Strategy, highlighting threats, and challenges and opportunities. How would you summarize those threats and those challenges and opportunities? What are those things that you're watching in the defense space area? >> Right, well, I think as I said before, Chris as well, you know, we're seeing that space will be highly contested because it's a critical element in our war fighting construct. To win our future conflict, I think we need to win space as well. So when you look at our near peer adversaries, there's a lot of efforts in China to take that advantage away from the United States. So the threat is real, and I think it's going to continue to evolve and grow. And the more we use space, for both commercial and government, I think you're going to see a lot more when these threats, some AFAs itself in forms of cyber attacks, or even kinetic attacks in some cases as needed. So, yeah, so the threat is indeed growing, space is congested, as we talked about, it will continually be contested in the future as well. So we need to have, like we do now in all the other domains, a way to defend it. And that's what we're working on within DOD. How do we protect our assets in space, and how do we make sure that the data information that traverses through space assets are trustworthy and free of any interference. >> Chris, exciting time, I'm mean, if you're in technology, this is crossing many lines here, tech, society, war time defense, new areas, new tech. I mean, it's security, it's intoxicating at many levels because if you think about it, it's not one thing. It's not one thing anymore. It spans a broader spectrum, these opportunities. >> Yeah and I think that expansion is a natural outgrowth from, as our microprocessors and chips and technology continue to shrink smaller and smaller. You know, we think of our cell phones and our handheld devices and tablets and so on that have just continued to get embedded in our everyday society, our everyday way of life. And that's a natural extension when we start applying those to space systems, when we think of smallsats and cube sets and the technology that's can be repurposed into a small vehicle, and the cost has come down so dramatically that, you know, we can afford to get rapid experiments, rapid exploitations and different approaches in space and learn from those and repeat them very quickly and very rapidly. And that applies itself very well to an agile development process, DevSecOps, and this notion of spins and cycles and refreshing and re-addressing priorities very quickly so that when we do put a new technology up, that the technology is very lean and cutting edge, and hasn't been years and years in the making, but it's relevant and new. And the cybersecurity and the vulnerabilities of that have to be addressed and allow that DevSecOps process to take place so that we can look at those vulnerabilities and get that new technology and those new experiments and demonstrations in space and get lessons learned from them over and over again. >> Well, that brings us to the next big topic. I want to spend the remainder of our time on, that is workforce, this next generation. If I wasn't so old, I would quit my job and I would join immediately. It's so much fun, it's exciting, and it's important. And this is what I think is a key point is that cybersecurity in and of itself has got a big gap of shortage of workers, nevermind adding space to it. So this is the intersection of space and cybersecurity. There is a workforce opportunity for this next generation, young person to person re-skilling, this is a big deal. Bong, you have thoughts on this? It's not just STEM, it's everything. >> Yeah, it's everything, you know, the opportunities we have in space, it's significant and tremendous. And I think if I were young again, as you pointed out, John, you know, I'm lucky that I'm in this domain in this world and I started years ago, but it continues to be exciting, lots of opportunities, you know. When you look at some of the commercial space systems are being put up, if you look at, I mentioned Starlink before and Amazon's Kuiper Constellation. These guys are talking about couple of thousand satellites in space to provide ubiquitous communications for internet globally, and that sort of thing. And they're not the only ones that are out there producing capability. We're seeing a lot more commercial imagery products being developed by companies, both within the US and foreign elements as well. So I think it's an exciting time to be in space. Certainly lots of opportunities. There's technical challenges galore in terms of not only the overcoming the physics of space, but being able to operate flexibly and get the most you can out of the capabilities we have operating up in space. >> Besides being cool, I mean, everyone looks at launch of space gets millions of views on live streams, the On-Demand reruns get millions and millions of views. There's a lot of things there. So, Chris, what specifically could you share are things that people would work on? Jobs, skills, what's the aperture? What's it look like if you zoom out and look at all the opportunities from a scale standpoint, what's out there? >> I'll talk to the aperture, but I want to give a shout out to our Space Force. And I mean, their job is to train and equip each air space and that space talent. And I think that's going to be a huge plus up to have a Space Force that's dedicated to training, equipping, an acquisition and a deployment model that will benefit not just the other services, but all of our national defense and our strategic way of how this company, country employees space altogether. So having a Space Force, I think, is a huge issue. And then to get to that aperture aspect of what you're asking and that addresses a larger workforce, we need so many different talents in this area. We can employ a variety of people from technical writers, to people who write and develop software to those who bending metal and actually working in a hardware environment. And those that do planning and launch operations and all of those spectrums and issues of jobs, are directly related to a workforce that can contribute to space. And then once that data gets to the ground and employed out to a user, whether it's a weather data, or we're looking at from a sensor, recent events on shipping lanes, those types of things. So space has such a wide and diverse swath that the aperture's really wide open for a variety of backgrounds. And those that really just want to take an opportunity, take a technical degree, or a degree that can apply itself to a tough problem, because they certainly exist in space. And we can use that mindset of problem solving, whether you come at it from a hacker mindset, an ethical, white hat approach to testing and vulnerability exploration. Or somebody who knows how to actually make operations safer, better through space situation awareness. So there's a huge swath of opportunity for us. >> Bong, talk about the cybersecurity enabled environment, the use cases that are possible when you have cybersecurity in play with space systems, which is in and of itself, a huge range of jobs, codings, supply chain, we just talked about a bunch of them. There's still more connected use cases that go beyond that, that are enabled by it, if you think about it. And this is what the students at Cal Poly and every other college and university, community college, you name it, who are watching videos on YouTube. Anyone with a brain can jump in if they see the future. It's all net news. Space Force is driving awareness, but there's a whole slew of these new use cases that I call space enabled by cyber secure systems. Your thoughts? >> Absolutely, I was had planned on attending the Cyber Challenge that's Cal Poly had planned in June. Of course, the pandemic took care of that plan, but I was intrigued by the approach that the Cal Poly was taking with middle school and high school kids of exposing him to a problem set. Here, you have a satellite that came down from space and part of the challenge was to do forensic analysis on the debris, the remaining pieces of the satellite to figure out what happened. It had a cyber cybersecurity connotation. It was hacked, it was attacked by cyber threat nation, took it down. And the beauty of having these kids kind of play with the remaining parts of the satellite, figure out what happened. So it was pretty exciting. I was really looking forward to participating in that, but again, the pandemic kind of blew that up, but I look forward to future events like that, to get our young people intrigued and interested in this new field of space. Now, Chris was talking earlier about opportunities, there're opportunities that you talk about, while I would like to have people come to the government, to help us out, it's not just focused on government. There's lots of opportunities in commercial space, if you will, for a lot of talent to participate in. So the challenge is immense, both government and the commercial sector, John. >> I mean, you get the hardcore, you know, I want to work for the DOD, I want to work for NSA, I want to work for the government. You clearly got people who want to have that kind of mission. But for the folks out there, Chris and Bong that are like, "Do I qualify?" It's like the black box of the DOD, it's like a secret thing, you got to get clearance, you've got to get all these certifications. And you got to take all kinds of tests and background checks. Is it like that, and will that continue? 'Cause some people might say, "Hey, can I even get involved? "What do I do?" So I know there's some private partnerships going on with companies out there in the private sector. So this is now a new, you guys seem to be partnering and going outside the comfort zone of the old kind of tactical things. What are some of those opportunities that people could get involved in that they might not know about? >> For NSA, there's a variety of workforce initiatives that for anybody from a high school work study can take advantage of to those that would like have to have internships. And those that are in a traditional academic environment, there's several NSA schools across the country that have academic and cyber sites of excellence that participate in projects that are shepherded and mentored by those at NSA that can get those tough problems that don't have maybe a classified or super sensitive nature that can be worked in and in an academia environment. So those are two or three examples of how somebody can break into an intelligence organization. And the other agencies have those opportunities as well across the intelligence community. And the partnership between and collaboration between private industry and the agencies and the Department of Defense just continue to grow over and over again. And even myself being able to take advantage of a joint duty assignment between my home organization and the Pentagon, just shows another venue of somebody that's in one organization can partner and leverage with another organization as well. So I'm an example of that partnering that's going on today. >> So there's some innovation. Bong, nontraditional pathways to find talent, what are out there, what are new? What are these new nontraditional ways? >> I was going to add to what Chris was mentioning, John. Even within DOD and under the purview of our chief information officer, back in 2013, the Deputy Secretary Defense signed the, what we call the DOD Cyberspace Workforce Strategy into effect. And that included a program called the Cyber Information Technology Exchange Program. It's an exchange program in which a private sector employee can work for the DOD in cyber security positions span across multiple mission critical areas. So this is one opportunity to learn, inside the DOD what's happening as a private sector person, if you will. Going back to what we talked about, kind of opportunities within the government for somebody who might be interested. You don't have to be super smart, dork in space, there's a lot of, like Chris pointed out, there's a lot of different areas that we need to have people, talented people to conduct the mission in space. So you don't have to be mathematician. You don't have to be an engineer to succeed in this business. I think there's plenty of opportunities for any types of talent, any type of academic disciplines that are out there. >> All right, thank you, and Chris's shout out to the Space Force is really worth calling out again, because I think to me, that's a big deal. It's a huge deal. It's going to change the face of our nation and society. So super, super important. And that's going to rise the tide. I think it's going to create some activation for a younger generation, certainly, and kind of new opportunities, new problems to solve, new threats to take on, and move it on. So really super conversation, space and cybersecurity, the Department of Defense perspective. Bong and Chris, thank you for taking the time. I'd love you guys just to close out. We'll start with you Bong and then Chris. Summarize for the folks watching, whether it's a student at Cal Poly or other university or someone in industry and government, what is the Department of Defense perspective for space cybersecurity? >> Chris, want to go and take that on? >> That's right, thank you. Cybersecurity applies to much more than just the launch and download of mission data or human led exploration. And the planning, testing, and experiments in the lab prior to launch require that cyber protection, just as much as any other space link, ground segment, trust rail network, or user data, and any of that loss of intellectual property or proprietary data is an extremely valuable and important, and really warrants cyber security safeguards. In any economic espionage, your data exfiltration, or denied access to that data, i.e. ransomware or some other attack, that can cripple any business or government endeavor, no matter how small or large, if it's left unprotected. And our economic backbone clearly depends on space. And GPS is more than just a direction finding, banking needs that T and timing from P and T or whether it just systems that protect our shipping and airline industry of whether they can navigate and go through a particular storm or not. Even fighting forest fires picked up by a remote sensor. All those space space assets require protection from spoofing date, data denial, or total asset loss. An example would be if a satellite sensitive optics or intentionally pointed at the sun and damaged, or if a command to avoid collision with another space vehicle was delayed or disrupted or a ground termination command as we just saw just a few days ago at T minus three seconds prior to liftoff, if those all don't go as planned, those losses are real and can be catastrophic. So the threat to space is pervasive, real and genuine, and your active work across all those platforms is necessary and appreciated. And your work in this area is critical going forward. Thank you for this opportunity to speak with you and talking on this important topic. Thank you, Chris Henson. Bong Gumahad, closing remarks? >> Yeah, likewise, John, again, as Chris said, thank you for the opportunity to discuss this very important around space cybersecurity, as well as addressing at the end there, we were talking about workforce development and the need to have people in the mix for future. (indistinct) We discussed, we need to start that recruiting early as we're doing to address the STEM gap today, we need to apply the same thing for cybersecurity. We absolutely need smart and innovative people to protect both our economic wellbeing as a nation, as well as our national defense. So this is the right conversation to have at this time, John. And again, thank you and Cal Poly host for having this symposium and having this opportunity to have this dialogue. Thank you. >> Gentlemen, thank you for your time and great insights. We couldn't be there in person. We're here virtual for the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, the Cal Poly. I'm John Furrier with SiliconANGLE and theCUBE, your host. Thank you for watching. (soft music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube >>with digital coverage of VM World 2020 brought to you by VM Ware and its ecosystem partners. Hello and welcome back to the VM World 2020 Virtual coverage with the Cube Virtual I'm John for day. Volonte your hosts our 11th year covering VM. We'll get a great guest Greg Lavender, SBP and the CTO of VM. Where, uh, welcome to the Cube. Virtual for VM World 2020 Virtual Great. Thanks for coming on. >>Privileged to be here. Thank you. >>Um, really. You know, one of the things Dave and I were commenting with Pat on just in general start 11th year covering VM world. Uh, a little difference not face to face. But it's always been a technical conference. Always a lot of technical innovation. Project Monterey's out there. It's pretty nerdy, but it's a it's called the catnip of the future. Right? People get excited by it, right? So there's really ah lot of awareness to it because it kinda it smells like a systems overhaul. It smells like an operating system. Feels like a, you know, a lot of moving parts that are, quite frankly, what distributed computing geeks and software geeks love to hear about and to end distributed software intelligence with new kinds of hardware innovations from and video and whatnot. Where's that innovation coming from? Can you share your thoughts on this direction? >>Yeah, I think first I should say this isn't like, you know, something that just, you know, we decided to do, you know, six months ago, actually, in the office of C T 04 years ago, we actually had a project. Um, you know, future looking project to get our core hyper visor technology running on arm processors and that incubated in the office of the CTO for three years. And then last December, move the engineering team that had done that research and advanced development work in the office of the CTO over to our cloud platforms business unit, you know, and smart Knicks, you know, kind of converged with that. And so we were already, you know, well along the innovation path there, and it's really now about building the partnerships we have with smart nick vendors and driving this technology out to the benefit of our customers who don't want to leverage it. >>You get >>Greg, I want if you could clarify something for me on that. So Pat talked about Monterey, a complete re architect ing of the i o Stack. And he talked about it affecting in video. Uh, intel, melon, ox and Sandoz part of that when he talks about the Iot stack, you know, specifically what are we talking about there? >>So you know any any computing server in the data center, you know, in a cola facility or even even in the cloud, you know? Ah, large portion of the, you know CPU resource is, and even some memory resource is can get consumed by just processing. You know, the high volumes of Iot that's going out, you know, storage devices, you know, communicating between the different parts of multi tiered applications. And so there's there's a there's an overhead that that gets consumed in the course server CPU, even if its multi core multi socket. And so by offloading that a lot of that I owe work onto the arm core and taking advantage of the of the hardware offloads there in the smart Knicks, you can You can offload that processing and free up even as much as 30% of the CPU of a server, multi socket, multicourse server, and give that back to the application so that the application gets the benefit of that extra compute and memory resource is >>So what about a single sort of low cost flash tear to avoid the complexities of tearing? Is that part of the equation? >>Well, you know, you can you can, um you know, much storage now is network attached. And so you could if it's all flash storage, you know, using something like envy me fabric over over Ethernet, you can essentially build large scale storage networks more efficiently, you know more cheaply and take advantage of that offload processing, uh, to begin to reduce the Iot Leighton. See, that's required taxes. That network attached storage and not just storage. But, you know, other devices, you know, that you can use you could better network attached. So disaggregated architectures is term. >>Uh, is that a yes? Or is that a stay tuned? >>Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. I mean the storage. You know, more efficient use of different classes of storage and storage. Tearing is definitely a prime use case there. >>Yeah, great. Thank you. Thanks for that. John, >>How could people think about the edge now? Because one of the things that's in this end to end is the edge. Pat brought it up multi cloud and edge or two areas that are extending off cloud and hybrid. What should people think about the innovation equation around those things? Is that these offload techniques? What specifically in the systems architecture? Er, do you guys see as the key keys there? >>So so, you know, edges very diversified, heterogeneous place, Uh, in the architectures of multi cloud services. So one thing we do know is, you know, workload. I would like to say workload follows data, and a lot of the data will be analyzed, the process at the edge. So the more that you can accelerate that data processing at the edge and apply some machine learning referencing at the edge were almost certainly gonna have kubernetes everywhere, including the edge. So I think you're seeing a convergence of the hardware architectures er the kubernetes control plane and services and machine learning workloads. You know, traveling to the edge where the where the data is going to be processed and actions could be taken autonomously at the edge. So I think we're in this convergence point in the industry where all that comes together. >>How important do you >>do you see that? Okay, John, >>how important is the intelligence piece? Because again, the potatoes at the edge. How do you guys see the data architecture being built out there? >>Um, well, again, it's depending on the other. The thick edge of the thin edge. You know, you're gonna have different, different types of data, and and again, a lot of the the inference thing that could happen at the edges. Going to, I think, for mawr, you know, again to take action at the edges, opposed to calling home to a cloud, you know, to decide what to do. So, depending on, you know, the computational power and the problem with its video processing or monitoring, you know, sensors, Aaron, oil. Well, the kind of interesting that will happen at the edge will will be dependent on that data type and what kind of decisions you want to make. So I think data will be moving, you know, from the edge to the cloud for historical analytics and maybe transitional training mechanisms. But, you know, the five G is gonna play heavily into this is well right for the network connectivity. So we read This unique point is often occurs in the industry every few years of all these technology innovations converging to open up an entirely new platform in a new way of computing that happens at the edge, not just in your data center at the cloud. >>So, Greg, you did a fairly major stint at a large bank. What would something you mentioned? You know, like an oil rig. But what would something like these changes mean for a new industry like banking or financial? Uh, will it have an impact there and put on your customer hat for a minute and take us through that >>e? You know, eight machines, you know, branches, chaos. You know, there's all make banks always been a very distributed computing platform. And so, you know, people want to deliver mawr user experience, services, more video services. You know all these things at the edge to interact positively with the customer without using the people in the loop. And so the banking industry has already gone through the SD when, and I want transformation to deliver the bandwidth more capably to the edge. And I just think that they'll just now be able to deliver Mawr Edge services that happened can happen more autonomously at the edge is opposed that having the hairpin home run everything back to the data center. >>Awesome. Well, Pat talks about the modern platform, the modern companies. Greg, I wanna ask you because we're seeing with Kovar, there's to use cases, you know, the people who don't have a tailwind, Um, companies that are, you know, not doing well because there's no business that you have there modernizing their business while they have some downtime. Other ones have a tailwind. They have a modern app that that takes advantage, this covert situation. So that brings up this idea of what is a modern app look like? Because now, if you're talking about a distributed architecture, some of things you're mentioning around inference, data edge. People are starting to think about these modern naps, and they are changing the game for the business. Now you have vertical industries. You mentioned oil and gas, you got financial services. It used to be you had industry solution. It worked like that and was siloed. Now you have a little bit of a different architectures. If we believe that we're looking up, not down. Does it matter by industry? How should people think about a modern application, how they move faster? Can you share your insights into into some of this conceptual? What is a modern approach and does it doesn't matter by vertical or industry. >>Yes, I mean, certainly over the course of my career, I mean, there's there's a massive diversity of applications. And of course, you know, the explosion of mobile and edge computing is just another sort of sort of use cases that will put demands on the infrastructure in the architecture and the networking. So a modern, a modern app I mean, we historically built sort of these monolithic app. So we sort of built these sort of three tier apse with, you know, sort of the client side, the middleware side. The database back in is the system of record. I mean, this is even being more disaggregated in terms of, you know, the the consumer edges both not just web here, but mobile tear. And, you know, we'll see what emerges out of that. The one thing for sure that is that, um they're becoming less monolithic and mawr a conglomeration of sass and other services that are being brought together, whether it's from the cloud services or whether it's s, you know, SBS delivering, you know, bring your own software. Um, and they're becoming more distributed because people need operated higher degrees of scale. There's a limit to Virgil vertical scaling, so you have to go to horizontal scaling, which is what the cloud is really good at. So I think all these things were driving a whole new set of technologies like next generation AP gateways. Message Busses, service mesh. We're announcing Tanzi's service message being world. Um, you know, this is just allowing allowing that application to be disaggregated and then integrated with other APS assassin services that allow you to get faster time to market. So speed of delivery is everything. So modern C I. C d. Modern software, technology and ability to deploy and run that workload anywhere at the edge of the core in the data center in the cloud. >>So when you do in your re architecture like this, Greg, I mean you've seen over the course of history in our industry you've seen so many companies have hit a wall and in VM, whereas it's just amazing engineering culture. How are you able toe, you know, change the engine mid flight here and avoid like, serious technical debt. And I mean, it took, you know, you said started four years ago, but can you give us a peek inside? You know, that sort of transformation and how you're pulling that off? >>Well, I mean, we're providing were delivered the platform and, you know, spring Buddhas a key, you know, technology that's used widely across the industry already, which is what we've got is part of our pivotal acquisition. And so what we're just trying to do is just keep keep delivering the technology and the platform that allows people to go faster with quality security and safety and resiliency. That's what we do really well at VM ware. So I think you're seeing more people building these APS Cloud native is opposed to, you know, taking an existing legacy app In trying to re factor it, they might do what it called e think somebody's called two speed architectures. Take the user front, end the consumer front in, and put that cloud native in the cloud. But the back end system of record still runs in the private cloud in a highly resilient you know, backed up disaster recovered way. So you're having, I think, brand new cloud native APS we're seeing. And then you're seeing people very carefully because there's a cost to it of looking at How do I basically modernized the front end but maintain the reliability of the scalability of security and the reliability of that sort of system of record back in? So either way, it's it's winning for the companies because they could do faster delivery to their businesses and their clients and their partners. But you have to have the resiliency and reliability that were known for for running those mission critical workloads, >>right? So the scenario is that back end stays on premise on the last earnings call, I think, Pat said, or somebody said that, that I think I just they said on Prem or maybe the man hybrid 30 to 40% cheaper, then doing it in the cloud. I presume they were talking about those kind of back end systems that you know you don't wanna migrate. Can you add some color that again from your customer perspective That the economics? >>Yeah. You know, um, somebody asked me one time what's really a cloud. Greg and I said, automation, automation, automation you can take you can take You can take your current environments and highly automate the release. Lifecycle management develop more agile software delivery methods. And so therefore, you could you could get sort of cloud benefits, you know, from your existing applications by just highly optimizing them and, you know, on the cost of goods and services. And then again, the hybrid cloud model just gives customers more choice, which is okay. I want to reduce the number of data centers I have, but I need to maintain reliability, scalability, etcetera. Take advantage of, you know, the hybrid cloud that we offer. But you'll still run things. Cloud natives. I think you're seeing this true multi cloud technology and paradigm, you know, grow out as people have these choices. And then the question is okay. If you have those choices, how do you maintain security? How do you maintain reliability? How do you maintain up time yet be able to move quickly. And so I think there's different speeds in which those platforms will evolve. And our goal is to give you the ability to basically make those choices and and optimize for economics as well as technical. You know, capability. >>Great. I want to ask you a question with Cove it we're seeing and we've been reporting the Cube virtual evolve because we used to be it at events, but we're not there anymore. But the as everyone has realized with cove it it's exposed some projects that you might not want to double down on or highlighted some gaps in architecture. Er, I mean, certainly who would have forecast of the disruption of 100% work from home VP and provisioning to access and access management security, and it really is exposed. What kind of who's where in the journey, Right in digital transformation. So I gotta ask you, what's the most important story or thing to pay attention, Thio as the smart money and smart customers go, Hey, you know what? I'm gonna double down on that. I'm gonna kill that project or sunset. That or I'm not gonna re factor that I'm gonna contain Arise it and there's probably there's a lot of that going on. In our conversations with customers, they're like it's pretty obvious. It's critical path. It's like we stay in business. We build a modern app, but I'm doubling down. I'm transitioning. It's a whole nother ballgame. What >>is >>the most important thing that you see that people should pay attention to around maintaining an innovation and coming out on the other side? >>Yeah, well, I think I think it just generally goes to the whole thesis of software defined. I mean, you know the idea of taking an appliance physical, You know, you have to order the hardware, get it on your loading dock, install in your data center. You know, go configure it, mapping into the rest of your environment. You know, whereas or you could just spend up new, softer instances of load balancers, firewalls, etcetera. So I think you know what's What's really helped in the covert era is the maturity of software to find everything. Compute storage, networking. Lan really allowed customers and many of our customers toe, you know, rapidly make that pivot. And so you know what? It's the you know, the workspace, the remote workspace. You gotta secure it. That's a key part of it, and you've got to give it. You know, you gotta have the scalability back in your data centers or, if you don't have it, be able to run those virtual desktops you know, in the cloud. And I think so. This ability again to take your current environment and, more importantly, your operating model, which, you know the technology could be agile and fast. But if you're operating models not agile, you know you can't executed Well, One of the best comments I heard from a customer CEO was, you know, for six months we debated, you know, the virtual networking architecture and how to deploy the virtual network. And, you know, when covet hit. We made the decision that did it all in one week. So the question the CEO asked now is like Well, why do we Why do we have to operate in that six month model going forward? Let's operate in the one week model going forward. E. I think that that z yeah, that's e think that's the big That's a big inflection point is the operating model has to be agile. We got all kinds of agile technology and choices I mentioned it's like, How do you make your organization agile to take advantage of those technological offerings? That's really what I've been doing the last six months, helping our customers achieve. >>I think that's a key point worth calling out and doubling down on day because, you know, whether you talk about our q Q virtual, our operating model has changed and we're doing new things. But it's not bad. It's actually beneficial. We could talk to more people. This idea of virtual ization. I mean pun intended virtual izing workforces face to face interactions air now remote. This is a software defined operating business. This is the rial innovation. I think this is the exposure. As companies wake up and going. Why didn't we do that before? Reminds me of the old mainframe days. Days? You know, why do we have that mainframe? Because they're still clutching and grabbing onto it. They got a transition. So this is the new the new reality. >>We were joking earlier that you know it ain't broke, don't fix it. And all of a sudden Covic broke everything. And so you know, virtualization becomes a fundamental component of of of how you respond. But and I wonder if Greg you could talk about the security. Peace? How how that fits in. You know everybody you know, the bromide, of course, is security can't be a bolt on. It's gotta be designed in from the start, Pat Gelsinger said years ago in the Cube. Security is a do over. You guys have purchased many different security components you've built in. Security comes. So how should we think about? And how are you thinking about designing insecurity across that entire stack without really bolting in, You know, pieces, whether it's carbon, carbon, black or other acquisitions that you've made? >>Yeah, I mean, I think that's that's the key. Inflection point we're in is an industry. I mean, getting back to my banking experience, I was responsible for cybersecurity, engineering the platforms that we engineered and deployed across the bank globally. And the challenge, the challenge. You know, that's I had, you know, 150 plus security products, and you go to bed at night wondering what? Which one did I forget to deploy or what did I get that gap? Do you think you think you're safe by the sheer number, but when you really boil down to it is like, you know, because you have to sort of like both all this stuff together to create a secure environment, you know, on a global level. And so really, our philosophy of VM where is Okay? Well, let's kind of break that model. That's what we call it intrinsic security, which is just, you know, we have the hyper visor. If you're running, the hyper visor is running on most of the service in your data center. If we have your if you have our network virtualization, we see all the traffic going between all those hyper visors and out to the cloud as well hybrid cloud or public cloud with our NSX technology. And then, you know, then you sort of bring into that the load balancers and the software to find firewalls. And pretty soon you have realized Okay, look, we have we have most of the estate. Therefore we could see everything and bring some intelligent machine learning to that and get proactive as opposed to reactive. Because our whole model now is we. All this technology and some alert pops and we get reactive. How about proactively telling me that something nasty is going on. >>I need to ask you a >>question. May be remediated. Sorry, John. It may be remediated at some point anyway. Bring in some machine intelligence tow. So instead of like you said, getting an alert actually tells me what what happened and how it was fixed, you know? Or at least recommending what I should dio, right? >>Yeah. I mean, part of the problem in the historic architectures is it was all these little silos. You know, every business unit had its own sort of technology. And Aziz, you make things virtualized. You you sort of do the virtual networking. The virtual stories of virtual compute all the software. You know, all of a sudden you have you have a different platform, you have lots of standardization. Therefore you don't have your operating model simplifies right and amount of and then it's about just collecting all the data and then making sense of the data. So you're not overwhelming the human's capacity to respond to it. And so I think that's really the fundamental thing we're all trying to get to. But the surface area is enlarged outside the data centers we've discussed out to the edge, whatever the edges, you know, into the cloud hybrid or public. So now you've got this big surface area where you've gotta have all that telemetry and all that visibility again, Back to getting proactive. So you got to do it in Band is opposed out of band. >>Great. I want to ask you a question on cyber security. We have an event on October 4th, the virtual event that Cuba is hosting with Cal Poly around this space and cybersecurity, symposiums, intersection of space and cyber. I noticed VM Ware recently announced last month that the United States Space Force has committed to the Tan Xue platform for for Continuous Dev ops operation for agility. I interviewed Lieutenant General John Thompson, Space Force, and we talked about that. He said quote, it's hard to do break fix in space. Uh, illustrating, really? Just can't send someone to swap out something in space. Not yet, at least. So they're looking at software defined as a key operating reality. Okay, so again, talk about the edge of space Isas edges. You're gonna get it. Need to be completely mad and talk about payloads and data. This >>is kind >>of interesting data point because you have security issues because space is gonna be contested and congested as an edge device. So it's actually the government's interested in that. But fundamentally, the death hops problem that you're you guys are involved in This >>is a >>reality. It's kind of connects this reality idea of operating models based in reality have to be software. What's >>your name? Yeah. I mean, I think the term we use now is def sec ops because you can't just do Dev ops. You have to have the security component in there, So, uh, yeah, the interesting. You know, like, there's a lot of interesting things happen just in fundamental networking, right? I mean, you know, the StarLink, you know, satellites at Testa. His launched Elon musk has launched and, you know, bringing sort of, you know, higher band with laurel agency to those. Yeah, we'll call it near space the and then again, just opens up all new opportunities for what we can dio. And so, Yeah, I think that's the software that the whole the whole saw for development ecosystem again, back to this idea. I think of three things. You gotta have speed. You gotta have scale and you gotta have security. And so that's really the emerging platform, whether it's a terrestrial or in near space, Uh, that's giving us the opportunity, Thio Do new architectures create service measures of services, some terrestrial, some some you know, far remote. And as you bring these new application architectures and system platform architectures together with all the underlying hardware and networking innovations that are occurring, you mentioned flash. But even getting into pmm persistent memory, right? So this this is so much happening that is converging. What's exciting to me about being a TV? Where is the CTO and we partner with all the hardware vendors? We partner with all the system providers, like in video and others. You know, the smart nick vendors. And then we get to come up with software architectures that sort of bring that together holistically and give people a platform. We can run your workloads to get work done wherever you need to land those workloads. And that's really the excitement about >>the candy store. And yet you've got problems hard problems to work on to solve. I mean, this really brings the whole project moderate, full circle because we think about space and networks and all these things you're talking about, You need to have smart everything. I mean, isn't that software? It's a complete tie into the Monterey. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, Exactly. You're right. It's not just it's not just connecting everything and pushing data around its than having the intelligence to do it efficiently, economically, insecurely. And that's you know. So I see that you don't want to over hype machine learning. I did not to use the term AI, but use the machine learning technologies, you know, properly trained with the proper data sets, you know, and then the proper algorithms. You know that you can then a employee, you know, at the edge small edge, thick edge, you know, in the data center at the cloud is really Then you give the visibility so that we get to that proactive world I was talking about. >>Yeah, great stuff, Greg. Great insight, great conversation. Looking forward to talking mawr Tech with you. Obviously you are in the right spot was in the center of all the action across the board final point. If you could just close it out for us. What is the most important story at VM World 2020 this year. >>Um, well, I think you know, I like to say that I have the best job. I think you know that I've had in my career. I've had some great ones is you know, we get to be disruptive innovators, and we have a culture of perpetual innovation and really being world for us, Aly employees and all the people that work together to put it together is we get to showcase. You know, some of that obviously have more up our sleeves for the future. But, you know, being world is are, you know, coming coming out out show of the latest set of innovations and technologies. So there's going to be so much I have, ah, vision and innovation. Keynote kickoff, right. Do some lightning demos. And actually, I talk about work we're doing in sustainability, and we're putting a micro grid on our campus in Palo Alto and partnership with City of Palo Alto so that when the wildfires come through or there is power outages, you know we're in oasis of power generating capacity with our solar in our batteries. And so the city of Palo Alto could take their emergency command vehicles and plug into our batteries when the power is out in Palo Alto and operate city services and city emergency services. So we're not just innovating, you know, in cortex we're innovating to become a more, you know, sustainable company and provide sustainable, you know, carbon neutral technology for our customers to adopt. And I think that's an area we wanna talk about me. We talk about it next time, but I think you know our innovations. We're gonna basically help change the world with regard to climate as well. >>Let's definitely do that. Let's follow up for another in depth conversation on the societal impact. Of course, VM Ware VM Ware's VM World's 2020 is virtual is a ton of sessions. There's a Cloud City portion. Check out the 60 solution demos. Of course, they ask the expert, Greg, you're in there with Joe Beta Raghu, all the experts, um, engage and check it out. Thank you so much for the insight here on the Cube. Virtual. Thanks for coming on. >>Appreciate the opportunity. Great conversation and good questions. >>Great stuff. Thank you very much. Innovation that vm where it's the heart of their missions always has been, but they're doing well on the business side, Dave. Okay. The cube coverage. They're not there in person. Virtual. I'm John for day. Volonte. Thanks for watching.