(gentle music) >> Narrator: "TheCUBE's" live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Hello everybody, welcome back to day four of "theCUBE's" coverage of MWC '23. We're here live at the Fira in Barcelona. Wall-to-wall coverage, John Furrier is in our Palo Alto studio, banging out all the news. Really, the whole week we've been talking about the disaggregation of the telco network, the new opportunities in telco. We're really excited to have AT&T and Snowflake here. Dave Whittington is the AVP, at the Chief Data Office at AT&T. Roddy Tranum is the Assistant Vice President, for Channel Performance Data and Tools at AT&T. And Phil Kippen, the Global Head Of Industry-Telecom at Snowflake, Snowflake's new telecom business. Snowflake just announced earnings last night. Typical Scarpelli, they beat earnings, very conservative guidance, stocks down today, but we like Snowflake long term, they're on that path to 10 billion. Guys, welcome to "theCUBE." Thanks so much >> Phil: Thank you. >> for coming on. >> Dave and Roddy: Thanks Dave. >> Dave, let's start with you. The data culture inside of telco, We've had this, we've been talking all week about this monolithic system. Super reliable. You guys did a great job during the pandemic. Everything shifting to landlines. We didn't even notice, you guys didn't miss a beat. Saved us. But the data culture's changing inside telco. Explain that. >> Well, absolutely. So, first of all IoT and edge processing is bringing forth new and exciting opportunities all the time. So, we're bridging the world between a lot of the OSS stuff that we can do with edge processing. But bringing that back, and now we're talking about working, and I would say traditionally, we talk data warehouse. Data warehouse and big data are now becoming a single mesh, all right? And the use cases and the way you can use those, especially I'm taking that edge data and bringing it back over, now I'm running AI and ML models on it, and I'm pushing back to the edge, and I'm combining that with my relational data. So that mesh there is making all the difference. We're getting new use cases that we can do with that. And it's just, and the volume of data is immense. >> Now, I love ChatGPT, but I'm hoping your data models are more accurate than ChatGPT. I never know. Sometimes it's really good, sometimes it's really bad. But enterprise, you got to be clean with your AI, don't you? >> Not only you have to be clean, you have to monitor it for bias and be ethical about it. We're really good about that. First of all with AT&T, our brand is Platinum. We take care of that. So, we may not be as cutting-edge risk takers as others, but when we go to market with an AI or an ML or a product, it's solid. >> Well hey, as telcos go, you guys are leaning into the Cloud. So I mean, that's a good starting point. Roddy, explain your role. You got an interesting title, Channel Performance Data and Tools, what's that all about? >> So literally anything with our consumer, retail, concenters' channels, all of our channels, from a data perspective and metrics perspective, what it takes to run reps, agents, all the way to leadership levels, scorecards, how you rank in the business, how you're driving the business, from sales, service, customer experience, all that data infrastructure with our great partners on the CDO side, as well as Snowflake, that comes from my team. >> And that's traditionally been done in a, I don't mean the pejorative, but we're talking about legacy, monolithic, sort of data warehouse technologies. >> Absolutely. >> We have a love-hate relationship with them. It's what we had. It's what we used, right? And now that's evolving. And you guys are leaning into the Cloud. >> Dramatic evolution. And what Snowflake's enabled for us is impeccable. We've talked about having, people have dreamed of one data warehouse for the longest time and everything in one system. Really, this is the only way that becomes a reality. The more you get in Snowflake, we can have golden source data, and instead of duplicating that 50 times across AT&T, it's in one place, we just share it, everybody leverages it, and now it's not duplicated, and the process efficiency is just incredible. >> But it really hinges on that separation of storage and compute. And we talk about the monolithic warehouse, and one of the nightmares I've lived with, is having a monolithic warehouse. And let's just go with some of my primary, traditional customers, sales, marketing and finance. They are leveraging BSS OSS data all the time. For me to coordinate a deployment, I have to make sure that each one of these units can take an outage, if it's going to be a long deployment. With the separation of storage, compute, they own their own compute cluster. So I can move faster for these people. 'Cause if finance, I can implement his code without impacting finance or marketing. This brings in CI/CD to more reality. It brings us faster to market with more features. So if he wants to implement a new comp plan for the field reps, or we're reacting to the marketplace, where one of our competitors has done something, we can do that in days, versus waiting weeks or months. >> And we've reported on this a lot. This is the brilliance of Snowflake's founders, that whole separation >> Yep. >> from compute and data. I like Dave, that you're starting with sort of the business flexibility, 'cause there's a cost element of this too. You can dial down, you can turn off compute, and then of course the whole world said, "Hey, that's a good idea." And a VC started throwing money at Amazon, but Redshift said, "Oh, we can do that too, sort of, can't turn off the compute." But I want to ask you Phil, so, >> Sure. >> it looks from my vantage point, like you're taking your Data Cloud message which was originally separate compute from storage simplification, now data sharing, automated governance, security, ultimately the marketplace. >> Phil: Right. >> Taking that same model, break down the silos into telecom, right? It's that same, >> Mm-hmm. >> sorry to use the term playbook, Frank Slootman tells me he doesn't use playbooks, but he's not a pattern matcher, but he's a situational CEO, he says. But the situation in telco calls for that type of strategy. So explain what you guys are doing in telco. >> I think there's, so, what we're launching, we launched last week, and it really was three components, right? So we had our platform as you mentioned, >> Dave: Mm-hmm. >> and that platform is being utilized by a number of different companies today. We also are adding, for telecom very specifically, we're adding capabilities in marketplace, so that service providers can not only use some of the data and apps that are in marketplace, but as well service providers can go and sell applications or sell data that they had built. And then as well, we're adding our ecosystem, it's telecom-specific. So, we're bringing partners in, technology partners, and consulting and services partners, that are very much focused on telecoms and what they do internally, but also helping them monetize new services. >> Okay, so it's not just sort of generic Snowflake into telco? You have specific value there. >> We're purposing the platform specifically for- >> Are you a telco guy? >> I am. You are, okay. >> Total telco guy absolutely. >> So there you go. You see that Snowflake is actually an interesting organizational structure, 'cause you're going after verticals, which is kind of rare for a company of your sort of inventory, I'll say, >> Absolutely. >> I don't mean that as a negative. (Dave laughs) So Dave, take us through the data journey at AT&T. It's a long history. You don't have to go back to the 1800s, but- (Dave laughs) >> Thank you for pointing out, we're a 149-year-old company. So, Jesse James was one of the original customers, (Dave laughs) and we have no longer got his data. So, I'll go back. I've been 17 years singular AT&T, and I've watched it through the whole journey of, where the monolithics were growing, when the consolidation of small, wireless carriers, and we went through that boom. And then we've gone through mergers and acquisitions. But, Hadoop came out, and it was going to solve all world hunger. And we had all the aspects of, we're going to monetize and do AI and ML, and some of the things we learned with Hadoop was, we had this monolithic warehouse, we had this file-based-structured Hadoop, but we really didn't know how to bring this all together. And we were bringing items over to the relational, and we were taking the relational and bringing it over to the warehouse, and trying to, and it was a struggle. Let's just go there. And I don't think we were the only company to struggle with that, but we learned a lot. And so now as tech is finally emerging, with the cloud, companies like Snowflake, and others that can handle that, where we can create, we were discussing earlier, but it becomes more of a conducive mesh that's interoperable. So now we're able to simplify that environment. And the cloud is a big thing on that. 'Cause you could not do this on-prem with on-prem technologies. It would be just too cost prohibitive, and too heavy of lifting, going back and forth, and managing the data. The simplicity the cloud brings with a smaller set of tools, and I'll say in the data space specifically, really allows us, maybe not a single instance of data for all use cases, but a greatly reduced ecosystem. And when you simplify your ecosystem, you simplify speed to market and data management. >> So I'm going to ask you, I know it's kind of internal organizational plumbing, but it'll inform my next question. So, Dave, you're with the Chief Data Office, and Roddy, you're kind of, you all serve in the business, but you're really serving the, you're closer to those guys, they're banging on your door for- >> Absolutely. I try to keep the 130,000 users who may or may not have issues sometimes with our data and metrics, away from Dave. And he just gets a call from me. >> And he only calls when he has a problem. He's never wished me happy birthday. (Dave and Phil laugh) >> So the reason I asked that is because, you describe Dave, some of the Hadoop days, and again love-hate with that, but we had hyper-specialized roles. We still do. You've got data engineers, data scientists, data analysts, and you've got this sort of this pipeline, and it had to be this sequential pipeline. I know Snowflake and others have come to simplify that. My question to you is, how is that those roles, how are those roles changing? How is data getting closer to the business? Everybody talks about democratizing business. Are you doing that? What's a real use example? >> From our perspective, those roles, a lot of those roles on my team for years, because we're all about efficiency, >> Dave: Mm-hmm. >> we cut across those areas, and always have cut across those areas. So now we're into a space where things have been simplified, data processes and copying, we've gone from 40 data processes down to five steps now. We've gone from five steps to one step. We've gone from days, now take hours, hours to minutes, minutes to seconds. Literally we're seeing that time in and time out with Snowflake. So these resources that have spent all their time on data engineering and moving data around, are now freed up more on what they have skills for and always have, the data analytics area of the business, and driving the business forward, and new metrics and new analysis. That's some of the great operational value that we've seen here. As this simplification happens, it frees up brain power. >> So, you're pumping data from the OSS, the BSS, the OKRs everywhere >> Everywhere. >> into Snowflake? >> Scheduling systems, you name it. If you can think of what drives our retail and centers and online, all that data, scheduling system, chat data, call center data, call detail data, all of that enters into this common infrastructure to manage the business on a day in and day out basis. >> How are the roles and the skill sets changing? 'Cause you're doing a lot less ETL, you're doing a lot less moving of data around. There were guys that were probably really good at that. I used to joke in the, when I was in the storage world, like if your job is bandaging lungs, you need to look for a new job, right? So, and they did and people move on. So, are you able to sort of redeploy those assets, and those people, those human resources? >> These folks are highly skilled. And we were talking about earlier, SQL hasn't gone away. Relational databases are not going away. And that's one thing that's made this migration excellent, they're just transitioning their skills. Experts in legacy systems are now rapidly becoming experts on the Snowflake side. And it has not been that hard a transition. There are certainly nuances, things that don't operate as well in the cloud environment that we have to learn and optimize. But we're making that transition. >> Dave: So just, >> Please. >> within the Chief Data Office we have a couple of missions, and Roddy is a great partner and an example of how it works. We try to bring the data for democratization, so that we have one interface, now hopefully know we just have a logical connection back to these Snowflake instances that we connect. But we're providing that governance and cleansing, and if there's a business rule at the enterprise level, we provide it. But the goal at CDO is to make sure that business units like Roddy or marketing or finance, that they can come to a platform that's reliable, robust, and self-service. I don't want to be in his way. So I feel like I'm providing a sub-level of platform, that he can come to and anybody can come to, and utilize, that they're not having to go back and undo what's in Salesforce, or ServiceNow, or in our billers. So, I'm sort of that layer. And then making sure that that ecosystem is robust enough for him to use. >> And that self-service infrastructure is predominantly through the Azure Cloud, correct? >> Dave: Absolutely. >> And you work on other clouds, but it's predominantly through Azure? >> We're predominantly in Azure, yeah. >> Dave: That's the first-party citizen? >> Yeah. >> Okay, I like to think in terms sometimes of data products, and I know you've mentioned upfront, you're Gold standard or Platinum standard, you're very careful about personal information. >> Dave: Yeah. >> So you're not trying to sell, I'm an AT&T customer, you're not trying to sell my data, and make money off of my data. So the value prop and the business case for Snowflake is it's simpler. You do things faster, you're in the cloud, lower cost, et cetera. But I presume you're also in the business, AT&T, of making offers and creating packages for customers. I look at those as data products, 'cause it's not a, I mean, yeah, there's a physical phone, but there's data products behind it. So- >> It ultimately is, but not everybody always sees it that way. Data reporting often can be an afterthought. And we're making it more on the forefront now. >> Yeah, so I like to think in terms of data products, I mean even if the financial services business, it's a data business. So, if we can think about that sort of metaphor, do you see yourselves as data product builders? Do you have that, do you think about building products in that regard? >> Within the Chief Data Office, we have a data product team, >> Mm-hmm. >> and by the way, I wouldn't be disingenuous if I said, oh, we're very mature in this, but no, it's where we're going, and it's somewhat of a journey, but I've got a peer, and their whole job is to go from, especially as we migrate from cloud, if Roddy or some other group was using tables three, four and five and joining them together, it's like, "Well look, this is an offer for data product, so let's combine these and put it up in the cloud, and here's the offer data set product, or here's the opportunity data product," and it's a journey. We're on the way, but we have dedicated staff and time to do this. >> I think one of the hardest parts about that is the organizational aspects of it. Like who owns the data now, right? It used to be owned by the techies, and increasingly the business lines want to have access, you're providing self-service. So there's a discussion about, "Okay, what is a data product? Who's responsible for that data product? Is it in my P&L or your P&L? Somebody's got to sign up for that number." So, it sounds like those discussions are taking place. >> They are. And, we feel like we're more the, and CDO at least, we feel more, we're like the guardians, and the shepherds, but not the owners. I mean, we have a role in it all, but he owns his metrics. >> Yeah, and even from our perspective, we see ourselves as an enabler of making whatever AT&T wants to make happen in terms of the key products and officers' trade-in offers, trade-in programs, all that requires this data infrastructure, and managing reps and agents, and what they do from a channel performance perspective. We still ourselves see ourselves as key enablers of that. And we've got to be flexible, and respond quickly to the business. >> I always had empathy for the data engineer, and he or she had to service all these different lines of business with no business context. >> Yeah. >> Like the business knows good data from bad data, and then they just pound that poor individual, and they're like, "Okay, I'm doing my best. It's just ones and zeros to me." So, it sounds like that's, you're on that path. >> Yeah absolutely, and I think, we do have refined, getting more and more refined owners of, since Snowflake enables these golden source data, everybody sees me and my organization, channel performance data, go to Roddy's team, we have a great team, and we go to Dave in terms of making it all happen from a data infrastructure perspective. So we, do have a lot more refined, "This is where you go for the golden source, this is where it is, this is who owns it. If you want to launch this product and services, and you want to manage reps with it, that's the place you-" >> It's a strong story. So Chief Data Office doesn't own the data per se, but it's your responsibility to provide the self-service infrastructure, and make sure it's governed properly, and in as automated way as possible. >> Well, yeah, absolutely. And let me tell you more, everybody talks about single version of the truth, one instance of the data, but there's context to that, that we are taking, trying to take advantage of that as we do data products is, what's the use case here? So we may have an entity of Roddy as a prospective customer, and we may have a entity of Roddy as a customer, high-value customer over here, which may have a different set of mix of data and all, but as a data product, we can then create those for those specific use cases. Still point to the same data, but build it in different constructs. One for marketing, one for sales, one for finance. By the way, that's where your data engineers are struggling. >> Yeah, yeah, of course. So how do I serve all these folks, and really have the context-common story in telco, >> Absolutely. >> or are these guys ahead of the curve a little bit? Or where would you put them? >> I think they're definitely moving a lot faster than the industry is generally. I think the enabling technologies, like for instance, having that single copy of data that everybody sees, a single pane of glass, right, that's definitely something that everybody wants to get to. Not many people are there. I think, what AT&T's doing, is most definitely a little bit further ahead than the industry generally. And I think the successes that are coming out of that, and the learning experiences are starting to generate momentum within AT&T. So I think, it's not just about the product, and having a product now that gives you a single copy of data. It's about the experiences, right? And now, how the teams are getting trained, domains like network engineering for instance. They typically haven't been a part of data discussions, because they've got a lot of data, but they're focused on the infrastructure. >> Mm. >> So, by going ahead and deploying this platform, for platform's purpose, right, and the business value, that's one thing, but also to start bringing, getting that experience, and bringing new experience in to help other groups that traditionally hadn't been data-centric, that's also a huge step ahead, right? So you need to enable those groups. >> A big complaint of course we hear at MWC from carriers is, "The over-the-top guys are killing us. They're riding on our networks, et cetera, et cetera. They have all the data, they have all the client relationships." Do you see your client relationships changing as a result of sort of your data culture evolving? >> Yes, I'm not sure I can- >> It's a loaded question, I know. >> Yeah, and then I, so, we want to start embedding as much into our network on the proprietary value that we have, so we can start getting into that OTT play, us as any other carrier, we have distinct advantages of what we can do at the edge, and we just need to start exploiting those. But you know, 'cause whether it's location or whatnot, so we got to eat into that. Historically, the network is where we make our money in, and we stack the services on top of it. It used to be *69. >> Dave: Yeah. >> If anybody remembers that. >> Dave: Yeah, of course. (Dave laughs) >> But you know, it was stacked on top of our network. Then we stack another product on top of it. It'll be in the edge where we start providing distinct values to other partners as we- >> I mean, it's a great business that you're in. I mean, if they're really good at connectivity. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And so, it sounds like it's still to be determined >> Dave: Yeah. >> where you can go with this. You have to be super careful with private and for personal information. >> Dave: Yep. >> Yeah, but the opportunities are enormous. >> There's a lot. >> Yeah, particularly at the edge, looking at, private networks are just an amazing opportunity. Factories and name it, hospital, remote hospitals, remote locations. I mean- >> Dave: Connected cars. >> Connected cars are really interesting, right? I mean, if you start communicating car to car, and actually drive that, (Dave laughs) I mean that's, now we're getting to visit Xen Fault Tolerance people. This is it. >> Dave: That's not, let's hold the traffic. >> Doesn't scare me as much as we actually learn. (all laugh) >> So how's the show been for you guys? >> Dave: Awesome. >> What're your big takeaways from- >> Tremendous experience. I mean, someone who doesn't go outside the United States much, I'm a homebody. The whole experience, the whole trip, city, Mobile World Congress, the technologies that are out here, it's been a blast. >> Anything, top two things you learned, advice you'd give to others, your colleagues out in general? >> In general, we talked a lot about technologies today, and we talked a lot about data, but I'm going to tell you what, the accelerator that you cannot change, is the relationship that we have. So when the tech and the business can work together toward a common goal, and it's a partnership, you get things done. So, I don't know how many CDOs or CIOs or CEOs are out there, but this connection is what accelerates and makes it work. >> And that is our audience Dave. I mean, it's all about that alignment. So guys, I really appreciate you coming in and sharing your story in "theCUBE." Great stuff. >> Thank you. >> Thanks a lot. >> All right, thanks everybody. Thank you for watching. I'll be right back with Dave Nicholson. Day four SiliconANGLE's coverage of MWC '23. You're watching "theCUBE." (gentle music)

(bright upbeat melody) >> Hello everyone, welcome back to Supercloud2. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Dave Vellante, here at theCUBE in Palo Alto, California, for our live stage performance all day for Supercloud2. Unpacking this next generation movement in cloud computing. Dave, Supercloud1 was in August. We had great response and acceleration of that momentum. We had some haters too. We had some folks out there throwing shade on this. But at the same time, a lot of leaders came out of the woodwork, a lot of practitioners. And this Supercloud2 event I think will expose and illustrate some of the examples of what's happening in the industry and more importantly, kind of where it's going. >> Well it's great to be back in our studios in Palo Alto, John. Seems like just yesterday was August 9th, where the community was really refining the definition of Super Cloud. We were identifying the essential characteristics, with some of the leading technologists in Silicon Valley. We were digging into the deployment models. Whereas this Supercloud, Supercloud2 is really taking a practitioner view. We're going to hear from Walmart today. They've built a Supercloud. They called it the Walmart Cloud native platform. We're going to hear from other data practitioners, like Saks. We're going to hear from Western Union. They've got 200 locations around the world, how they're dealing with data sovereignty. And of course we've got some local technologists and practitioners coming in, analysts, consultants, theCUBE community. I'm really excited to be here. >> And we've got some great keynotes from executives at VMware. We're going to expose some of the things that they're working on around cross cloud services, which leads into multicloud. I think the practitioner angle highlights my favorite part of this program, 'cause you're starting to see the builders, a term coined by Andy Jassy, early days of AWS. That builder movement has been continuing to go. And you're seeing the enterprise, global enterprises adopt this builder mentality with Cloud Native. This is going to power the next generation global economy. And I think the role of the cloud computing vendors like AWS, Azure, Google, Alibaba are going to be the source engine of innovation. And what gets built on top of and with the clouds will be a big significant market value for all businesses and their business models. So I think the market wants the supercloud, the business models are pointing to Supercloud. The technology needs supercloud. And society, from an economic standpoint and from a use case standpoint, needs supercloud. You're seeing it today. Everyone's talking about chat GPT. This is an example of what will come out of this next generation and it's just getting started. So to me, you're either on the supercloud side of the camp or you're on the old school, hugging onto the old school mentality of wait a minute, that's cloud computing. So I think if you're not on the super cloud wave, you're going to be driftwood. And that's a term coined by Pat Gelsinger. And this is really the reality. Are you on the super cloud side? Or are you on the old huggin' the old model? And that's going to be a determinant. And you're going to see who's going to be the players on that, Dave. This is going to be a real big year. >> Everybody's heard the phrase follow the money. Well, my philosophy is follow the data. And that's a big part of what Supercloud2 is, because the data is where the money is across the clouds. And people want more simplicity, or greater simplicity across the clouds. So it's really, there's two forces here. You've got the ecosystem that's saying, hey the hyperscalers, they've done a great job but there's problems that they're not solving. So we're going to lean in and solve those problems. At the same time, you have the practitioners saying we have multicloud, we have to deal with this, help us. It's got to be simpler. Because we want to share data across clouds. We want to build data products, we want to monetize and drive revenue and cut costs. >> This is the key thing. The builder movement is hitting a wall, and that wall will be broken down because the business models of the companies themselves are demanding that the value from the data with security has to be embedded. So I think you're going to see a big year this next year or so where the builders will accelerate through this next generation, supercloud wave, will be a builder's wave for business. And I think that's going to be the nuance here. And all the people that are on the side of Supercloud are all pro-business, pro-technology. The ones that aren't are like, wait a minute I used to do things differently. They're stuck. And so I think this is going to be a question of are we stuck? Are builders accelerating? Will the business models develop around it? That's digital transformation. At the end of the day, the market's speaking, Dave. The market wants more. Chat GPT, you're seeing AI starting to flourish, powered by data. It's unstoppable, supercloud's unstoppable. >> One of our headliners today is Zhamak Dehghani, the creator of Data Mesh. We've got some news around her. She's going to be live in studio. Super excited about that. Kit Colbert in Supercloud, the first Supercloud in last August, laid out an initial architecture for Supercloud. He's going to advance that today, tell us what's changed, and really dig into and really talk about the meat on the bone, if you will. And we've got some other technologists that are coming in saying, Hey, is it a platform? Is it an architecture? What's the right model here? So we're going to debate that a little bit today. >> And before we close, I'll just say look at the guests, look at the talk tracks. You're seeing a diversity of startups doing cloud networking, you're seeing big practitioners building their own thing, being builders for business value and business model advantages. And you got companies like VMware, who have been on the wave of virtualization. So the, everyone who's involved in super cloud, they're seeing it, they're on the front lines. They're seeing the trend. They are riding that wave. And they have, they're bringing data to the table. So to me, you look at who's involved and you judge it that way. To me, that's the way I look at this. And because we're making it open, Supercloud is going to continue to be debated. But more importantly, the results are going to come in. The market supports it, the business needs it, tech's there, and will it happen? So I think the builders movement, Dave, is going to be big to watch. And then ultimately how that business transformation kicks in, and I think those are the two variables that I would watch on Supercloud. >> Our mission has always been around free content, giving back to the community. So I really want to thank our sponsors today. We've had a great partnership with VMware, who's not only contributed some financial support, but also great content. Alkira, ChaosSearch, prosimo, all phenomenal, allowing us to achieve our mission of serving our audiences and really trying to give more than we take from. >> Free content, that's our mission. Dave, great to kick it off. Kickin' off Supercloud2 all day, we've got some great programs here. We've got VMware coming up next. We have Victoria Viering, who's been on before. He's got a great vision for cross cloud service. We're getting also a keynote with Kit Colbert, who's going to lay out the fragmentation and the benefits that that solves, from solvent fragmentation and silos, breaking down the silos and bringing multicloud future to the table via Super Cloud. So stay with us. We'll be right back after this short break. (bright upbeat music) (music fades)

(gentle bright music) >> Okay, welcome back to our "Supercloud 2" event live coverage here at stage performance in Palo Alto syndicating around the world. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. We've got exclusive news and a scoop here for SiliconANGLE and theCUBE. Zhamak Dehghani, creator of data mesh has formed a new company called NextData.com NextData, she's a cube alumni and contributor to our Supercloud initiative, as well as our coverage and breaking analysis with Dave Vellante on data, the killer app for Supercloud. Zhamak, great to see you. Thank you for coming into the studio and congratulations on your newly formed venture and continued success on the data mesh. >> Thank you so much. It's great to be here. Great to see you in person. >> Dave: Yeah, finally. >> John: Wonderful. Your contributions to the data conversation has been well-documented certainly by us and others in the industry. Data mesh taking the world by storm. Some people are debating it, throwing, you know, cold water on it. Some are, I think, it's the next big thing. Tell us about the data mesh super data apps that are emerging out of cloud. >> I mean, data mesh, as you said, it's, you know, the pain point that it surfaced were universal. Everybody said, "Oh, why didn't I think of that?" You know, it was just an obvious next step and people are approaching it, implementing it. I guess the last few years, I've been involved in many of those implementations, and I guess Supercloud is somewhat a prerequisite for it because it's data mesh and building applications using data mesh is about sharing data responsibly across boundaries. And those boundaries include boundaries, organizational boundaries cloud technology boundaries and trust boundaries. >> I want to bring that up because your venture, NextData which is new, just formed. Tell us about that. What wave is that riding? What specifically are you targeting? What's the pain point? >> Zhamak: Absolutely, yes. So next data is the result of, I suppose, the pains that I suffered from implementing a database for many of the organizations. Basically, a lot of organizations that I've worked with, they want decentralized data. So they really embrace this idea of decentralized ownership of the data, but yet they want interconnectivity through standard APIs, yet they want discoverability and governance. So they want to have policies implemented, they want to govern that data, they want to be able to discover that data and yet they want to decentralize it. And we do that with a developer experience that is easy and native to a generalist developer. So we try to find, I guess, the common denominator that solves those problems and enables that developer experience for data sharing. >> John: Since you just announced the news, what's been the reaction? >> Zhamak: I just announced the news right now, so what's the reaction? >> John: But people in the industry that know you, you did a lot of work in the area. What have been some of the feedback on the new venture in terms of the approach, the customers, problem? >> Yeah, so we've been in stealth modes, so we haven't publicly talked about it, but folks that have been close to us in fact have reached out. We already have implementations of our pilot platform with early customers, which is super exciting. And we're going to have multiple of those. Of course, we're a tiny, tiny company. We can have many of those where we are going to have multiple pilots, implementations of our platform in real world. We're real global large scale organizations that have real world problems. So we're not going to build our platform in vacuum. And that's what's happening right now. >> Zhamak: When I think about your role at ThoughtWorks, you had a very wide observation space with a number of clients helping them implement data mesh and other things as well prior to your data mesh initiative. But when I look at data mesh, at least the ones that I've seen, they're very narrow. I think of JPMC, I think of HelloFresh. They're generally obviously not surprising. They don't include the big vision of inclusivity across clouds across different data stores. But it seems like people are having to go through some gymnastics to get to, you know, the organizational reality of decentralizing data, and at least pushing data ownership to the line of business. How are you approaching or are you approaching, solving that problem? Are you taking a narrow slice? What can you tell us about Next Data? >> Zhamak: Sure, yeah, absolutely. Gymnastics, the cute word to describe what the organizations have to go through. And one of those problems is that, you know, the data, as you know, resides on different platforms. It's owned by different people, it's processed by pipelines that who owns them. So there's this very disparate and disconnected set of technologies that were very useful for when we thought about data and processing as a centralized problem. But when you think about data as a decentralized problem, the cost of integration of these technologies in a cohesive developer experience is what's missing. And we want to focus on that cohesive end-to-end developer experience to share data responsibly in this autonomous units, we call them data products, I guess in data mesh, right? That constitutes computation, that governs that data policies, discoverability. So I guess, I heard this expression in the last talks that you can have your cake and eat it too. So we want people have their cakes, which is, you know, data in different places, decentralization and eat it too, which is interconnected access to it. So we start with standardizing and codifying this idea of a data product container that encapsulates data computation, APIs to get to it in a technology agnostic way, in an open way. And then, sit on top and use existing existing tech, you know, Snowflake, Databricks, whatever exists, you know, the millions of dollars of investments that companies have made, sit on top of those but create this cohesive, integrated experience where data product is a first class primitive. And that's really key here, that the language, and the modeling that we use is really native to data mesh is that I will make a data product, I'm sharing a data product, and that encapsulates on providing metadata about this. I'm providing computation that's constantly changing the data. I'm providing the API for that. So we're trying to kind of codify and create a new developer experience based on that. And developer, both from provider side and user side connected to peer-to-peer data sharing with data product as a primitive first class concept. >> Okay, so the idea would be developers would build applications leveraging those data products which are discoverable and governed. Now, today you see some companies, you know, take a snowflake for example. >> Zhamak: Yeah. >> Attempting to do that within their own little walled garden. They even, at one point, used the term, "Mesh." I dunno if they pull back on that. And then they sort of became aware of some of your work. But a lot of the things that they're doing within their little insulated environment, you know, support that, that, you know, governance, they're building out an ecosystem. What's different in your vision? >> Exactly. So we realize that, you know, and this is a reality, like you go to organizations, they have a snowflake and half of the organization happily operates on Snowflake. And on the other half, oh, we are on, you know, bare infrastructure on AWS, or we are on Databricks. This is the realities, you know, this Supercloud that's written up here. It's about working across boundaries of technology. So we try to embrace that. And even for our own technology with the way we're building it, we say, "Okay, nobody's going to use next data mesh operating system. People will have different platforms." So you have to build with openness in mind, and in case of Snowflake, I think, you know, they have I'm sure very happy customers as long as customers can be on Snowflake. But once you cross that boundary of platforms then that becomes a problem. And we try to keep that in mind in our solution. >> So, it's worth reviewing that basically, the concept of data mesh is that, whether you're a data lake or a data warehouse, an S3 bucket, an Oracle database as well, they should be inclusive inside of the data. >> We did a session with AWS on the startup showcase, data as code. And remember, I wrote a blog post in 2007 called, "Data's the new developer kit." Back then, they used to call 'em developer kits, if you remember. And that we said at that time, whoever can code data >> Zhamak: Yes. >> Will have a competitive advantage. >> Aren't there machines going to be doing that? Didn't we just hear that? >> Well we have, and you know, Hey Siri, hey Cube. Find me that best video for data mesh. There it is. I mean, this is the point, like what's happening is that, now, data has to be addressable >> Zhamak: Yes. >> For machines and for coding. >> Zhamak: Yes. >> Because as you need to call the data. So the question is, how do you manage the complexity of big things as promiscuous as possible, making it available as well as then governing it because it's a trade off. The more you make open >> Zhamak: Definitely. >> The better the machine learning. >> Zhamak: Yes. >> But yet, the governance issue, so this is the, you need an OS to handle this maybe. >> Yes, well, we call our mental model for our platform is an OS operating system. Operating systems, you know, have shown us how you can kind of abstract what's complex and take care of, you know, a lot of complexities, but yet provide an open and, you know, dynamic enough interface. So we think about it that way. We try to solve the problem of policies live with the data. An enforcement of the policies happens at the most granular level which is, in this concept, the data product. And that would happen whether you read, write, or access a data product. But we can never imagine what are these policies could be. So our thinking is, okay, we should have a open policy framework that can allow organizations write their own policy drivers, and policy definitions, and encode it and encapsulated in this data product container. But I'm not going to fool myself to say that, you know, that's going to solve the problem that you just described. I think we are in this, I don't know, if I look into my crystal ball, what I think might happen is that right now, the primitives that we work with to train machine-learning model are still bits and bites in data. They're fields, rows, columns, right? And that creates quite a large surface area, an attack area for, you know, for privacy of the data. So perhaps, one of the trends that we might see is this evolution of data APIs to become more and more computational aware to bring the compute to the data to reduce that surface area so you can really leave the control of the data to the sovereign owners of that data, right? So that data product. So I think the evolution of our data APIs perhaps will become more and more computational. So you describe what you want, and the data owner decides, you know, how to manage the- >> John: That's interesting, Dave, 'cause it's almost like we just talked about ChatGPT in the last segment with you, who's a machine learning, could really been around the industry. It's almost as if you're starting to see reason come into the data, reasoning. It's like you starting to see not just metadata, using the data to reason so that you don't have to expose the raw data. It's almost like a, I won't say curation layer, but an intelligence layer. >> Zhamak: Exactly. >> Can you share your vision on that 'cause that seems to be where the dots are connecting. >> Zhamak: Yes, this is perhaps further into the future because just from where we stand, we have to create still that bridge of familiarity between that future and present. So we are still in that bridge-making mode, however, by just the basic notion of saying, "I'm going to put an API in front of my data, and that API today might be as primitive as a level of indirection as in you tell me what you want, tell me who you are, let me go process that, all the policies and lineage, and insert all of this intelligence that need to happen. And then I will, today, I will still give you a file. But by just defining that API and standardizing it, now we have this amazing extension point that we can say, "Well, the next revision of this API, you not just tell me who you are, but you actually tell me what intelligence you're after. What's a logic that I need to go and now compute on your API?" And you can kind of evolve that, right? Now you have a point of evolution to this very futuristic, I guess, future where you just describe the question that you're asking from the chat. >> Well, this is the Supercloud, Dave. >> I have a question from a fan, I got to get it in. It's George Gilbert. And so, his question is, you're blowing away the way we synchronize data from operational systems to the data stack to applications. So the concern that he has, and he wants your feedback on this, "Is the data product app devs get exposed to more complexity with respect to moving data between data products or maybe it's attributes between data products, how do you respond to that? How do you see, is that a problem or is that something that is overstated, or do you have an answer for that?" >> Zhamak: Absolutely. So I think there's a sweet spot in getting data developers, data product developers closer to the app, but yet not burdening them with the complexity of the application and application logic, and yet reducing their cognitive load by localizing what they need to know about which is that domain where they're operating within. Because what's happening right now? what's happening right now is that data engineers, a ton of empathy for them for their high threshold of pain that they can, you know, deal with, they have been centralized, they've put into the data team, and they have been given this unbelievable task of make meaning out of data, put semantic over it, curates it, cleans it, and so on. So what we are saying is that get those folks embedded into the domain closer to the application developers, these are still separately moving units. Your app and your data products are independent but yet tightly closed with each other, tightly coupled with each other based on the context of the domain, so reduce cognitive load by localizing what they need to know about to the domain, get them closer to the application but yet have them them separate from app because app provides a very different service. Transactional data for my e-commerce transaction, data product provides a very different service, longitudinal data for the, you know, variety of this intelligent analysis that I can do on the data. But yet, it's all within the domain of e-commerce or sales or whatnot. >> So a lot of decoupling and coupling create that cohesiveness. >> Zhamak: Absolutely. >> Architecture. So I have to ask you, this is an interesting question 'cause it came up on theCUBE all last year. Back on the old server, data center days and cloud, SRE, Google coined the term, "Site Reliability Engineer" for someone to look over the hundreds of thousands of servers. We asked a question to data engineering community who have been suffering, by the way, agree. Is there an SRE-like role for data? Because in a way, data engineering, that platform engineer, they are like the SRE for data. In other words, managing the large scale to enable automation and cell service. What's your thoughts and reaction to that? >> Zhamak: Yes, exactly. So, maybe we go through that history of how SRE came to be. So we had the first DevOps movement which was, remove the wall between dev and ops and bring them together. So you have one cross-functional units of the organization that's responsible for, you build it you run it, right? So then there is no, I'm going to just shoot my application over the wall for somebody else to manage it. So we did that, and then we said, "Okay, as we decentralized and had this many microservices running around, we had to create a layer that abstracted a lot of the complexity around running now a lot or monitoring, observing and running a lot while giving autonomy to this cross-functional team." And that's where the SRE, a new generation of engineers came to exist. So I think if I just look- >> Hence Borg, hence Kubernetes. >> Hence, hence, exactly. Hence chaos engineering, hence embracing the complexity and messiness, right? And putting engineering discipline to embrace that and yet give a cohesive and high integrity experience of those systems. So I think, if we look at that evolution, perhaps something like that is happening by bringing data and apps closer and make them these domain-oriented data product teams or domain oriented cross-functional teams, full stop, and still have a very advanced maybe at the platform infrastructure level kind of operational team that they're not busy doing two jobs which is taking care of domains and the infrastructure, but they're building infrastructure that is embracing that complexity, interconnectivity of this data process. >> John: So you see similarities. >> Absolutely, but I feel like we're probably in a more early days of that movement. >> So it's a data DevOps kind of thing happening where scales happening. It's good things are happening yet. Eh, a little bit fast and loose with some complexities to clean up. >> Yes, yes. This is a different restructure. As you said we, you know, the job of this industry as a whole on architects is decompose, recompose, decompose, recomposing a new way, and now we're like decomposing centralized team, recomposing them as domains and- >> John: So is data mesh the killer app for Supercloud? >> You had to do this for me. >> Dave: Sorry, I couldn't- (John and Dave laughing) >> Zhamak: What do you want me to say, Dave? >> John: Yes. >> Zhamak: Yes of course. >> I mean Supercloud, I think it's, really the terminology's Supercloud, Opencloud. But I think, in spirits of it, this embracing of diversity and giving autonomy for people to make decisions for what's right for them and not yet lock them in. I think just embracing that is baked into how data mesh assume the world would work. >> John: Well thank you so much for coming on Supercloud too, really appreciate it. Data has driven this conversation. Your success of data mesh has really opened up the conversation and exposed the slow moving data industry. >> Dave: Been a great catalyst. (John laughs) >> John: That's now going well. We can move faster, so thanks for coming on. >> Thank you for hosting me. It was wonderful. >> Okay, Supercloud 2 live here in Palo Alto. Our stage performance, I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. We're back with more after this short break, Stay with us all day for Supercloud 2. (gentle bright music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to our Supercloud 2 event live coverage here of stage performance in Palo Alto syndicating around the world. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. We got exclusive news and a scoop here for SiliconANGLE in theCUBE. Zhamak Dehghani, creator of data mesh has formed a new company called Nextdata.com, Nextdata. She's a cube alumni and contributor to our supercloud initiative, as well as our coverage and Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante on data, the killer app for supercloud. Zhamak, great to see you. Thank you for coming into the studio and congratulations on your newly formed venture and continued success on the data mesh. >> Thank you so much. It's great to be here. Great to see you in person. >> Dave: Yeah, finally. >> Wonderful. Your contributions to the data conversation has been well documented certainly by us and others in the industry. Data mesh taking the world by storm. Some people are debating it, throwing cold water on it. Some are thinking it's the next big thing. Tell us about the data mesh, super data apps that are emerging out of cloud. >> I mean, data mesh, as you said, the pain point that it surface were universal. Everybody said, "Oh, why didn't I think of that?" It was just an obvious next step and people are approaching it, implementing it. I guess the last few years I've been involved in many of those implementations and I guess supercloud is somewhat a prerequisite for it because it's data mesh and building applications using data mesh is about sharing data responsibly across boundaries. And those boundaries include organizational boundaries, cloud technology boundaries, and trust boundaries. >> I want to bring that up because your venture, Nextdata, which is new just formed. Tell us about that. What wave is that riding? What specifically are you targeting? What's the pain point? >> Absolutely. Yes, so Nextdata is the result of, I suppose the pains that I suffered from implementing data mesh for many of the organizations. Basically a lot of organizations that I've worked with they want decentralized data. So they really embrace this idea of decentralized ownership of the data, but yet they want interconnectivity through standard APIs, yet they want discoverability and governance. So they want to have policies implemented, they want to govern that data, they want to be able to discover that data, and yet they want to decentralize it. And we do that with a developer experience that is easy and native to a generalist developer. So we try to find the, I guess the common denominator that solves those problems and enables that developer experience for data sharing. >> Since you just announced the news, what's been the reaction? >> I just announced the news right now, so what's the reaction? >> But people in the industry know you did a lot of work in the area. What have been some of the feedback on the new venture in terms of the approach, the customers, problem? >> Yeah, so we've been in stealth mode so we haven't publicly talked about it, but folks that have been close to us, in fact have reached that we already have implementations of our pilot platform with early customers, which is super exciting. And we going to have multiple of those. Of course, we're a tiny, tiny company. We can have many of those, but we are going to have multiple pilot implementations of our platform in real world where real global large scale organizations that have real world problems. So we're not going to build our platform in vacuum. And that's what's happening right now. >> Zhamak, when I think about your role at ThoughtWorks, you had a very wide observation space with a number of clients, helping them implement data mesh and other things as well prior to your data mesh initiative. But when I look at data mesh, at least the ones that I've seen, they're very narrow. I think of JPMC, I think of HelloFresh. They're generally, obviously not surprising, they don't include the big vision of inclusivity across clouds, across different data storage. But it seems like people are having to go through some gymnastics to get to the organizational reality of decentralizing data and at least pushing data ownership to the line of business. How are you approaching, or are you approaching solving that problem? Are you taking a narrow slice? What can you tell us about Nextdata? >> Yeah, absolutely. Gymnastics, the cute word to describe what the organizations have to go through. And one of those problems is that the data as you know resides on different platforms, it's owned by different people, is processed by pipelines that who knows who owns them. So there's this very disparate and disconnected set of technologies that were very useful for when we thought about data and processing as a centralized problem. But when you think about data as a decentralized problem the cost of integration of these technologies in a cohesive developer experience is what's missing. And we want to focus on that cohesive end-to-end developer experience to share data responsibly in these autonomous units. We call them data products, I guess in data mesh. That constitutes computation. That governs that data policies, discoverability. So I guess, I heard this expression in the last talks that you can have your cake and eat it too. So we want people have their cakes, which is data in different places, decentralization, and eat it too, which is interconnected access to it. So we start with standardizing and codifying this idea of a data product container that encapsulates data computation APIs to get to it in a technology agnostic way, in an open way. And then sit on top and use existing tech, Snowflake, Databricks, whatever exists, the millions of dollars of investments that companies have made, sit on top of those but create this cohesive, integrated experience where data product is a first class primitive. And that's really key here. The language and the modeling that we use is really native to data mesh, which is that I'm building a data product I'm sharing a data product, and that encapsulates I'm providing metadata about this. I'm providing computation that's constantly changing the data. I'm providing the API for that. So we we're trying to kind of codify and create a new developer experience based on that. And developer, both from provider side and user side, connected to peer-to-peer data sharing with data product as a primitive first class concept. >> So the idea would be developers would build applications leveraging those data products, which are discoverable and governed. Now today you see some companies, take a Snowflake for example, attempting to do that within their own little walled garden. They even at one point used the term mesh. I don't know if they pull back on that. And then they became aware of some of your work. But a lot of the things that they're doing within their little insulated environment support that governance, they're building out an ecosystem. What's different in your vision? >> Exactly. So we realized that, and this is a reality, like you go to organizations, they have a Snowflake and half of the organization happily operates on Snowflake. And on the other half, "oh, we are on Bare infrastructure on AWS or we are on Databricks." This is the reality. This supercloud that's written up here, it's about working across boundaries of technology. So we try to embrace that. And even for our own technology with the way we're building it, we say, "Okay, nobody's going to use Nextdata, data mesh operating system. People will have different platforms." So you have to build with openness in mind and in case of Snowflake, I think, they have very, I'm sure very happy customers as long as customers can be on Snowflake. But once you cross that boundary of platforms then that becomes a problem. And we try to keep that in mind in our solution. >> So it's worth reviewing that basically the concept of data mesh is that whether you're a data lake or a data warehouse, an S3 bucket, an Oracle database as well, they should be inclusive inside of the data. >> We did a session with AWS on the startup showcase, data as code. And remember I wrote a blog post in 2007 called "Data as the New Developer Kit" back then we used to call them developer kits if you remember. And that we said at that time, whoever can code data will have a competitive advantage. >> Aren't the machines going to be doing that? Didn't we just hear that? >> Well, we have. Hey, Siri. Hey, Cube, find me that best video for data mesh. There it is. But this is the point, like what's happening is that now data has to be addressable. for machines and for coding because as you need to call the data. So the question is how do you manage the complexity of big things as promiscuous as possible, making it available, as well as then governing it? Because it's a trade off. The more you make open, the better the machine learning. But yet the governance issue, so this is the, you need an OS to handle this maybe. >> Yes. So yes, well we call, our mental model for our platform is an OS operating system. Operating systems have shown us how you can abstract what's complex and take care of a lot of complexities, but yet provide an open and dynamic enough interface. So we think about it that way. Just, we try to solve the problem of policies live with the data, an enforcement of the policies happens at the most granular level, which is in this concept of the data product. And that would happen whether you read, write or access a data product. But we can never imagine what are these policies could be. So our thinking is we should have a policy, open policy framework that can allow organizations write their own policy drivers and policy definitions and encode it and encapsulated in this data product container. But I'm not going to fool myself to say that, that's going to solve the problem that you just described. I think we are in this, I don't know, if I look into my crystal ball, what I think might happen is that right now the primitives that we work with to train machine learning model are still bits and bytes and data. They're fields, rows, columns and that creates quite a large surface area and attack area for privacy of the data. So perhaps one of the trends that we might see is this evolution of data APIs to become more and more computational aware to bring the compute to the data to reduce that surface area. So you can really leave the control of the data to the sovereign owners of that data. So that data product. So I think that evolution of our data APIs perhaps will become more and more computational. So you describe what you want and the data owner decides how to manage. >> That's interesting, Dave, 'cause it's almost like we just talked about ChatGPT in the last segment we had with you. It was a machine learning have been around the industry. It's almost as if you're starting to see reason come into, the data reasoning is like starting to see not just metadata. Using the data to reason so that you don't have to expose the raw data. So almost like a, I won't say curation layer, but an intelligence layer. >> Zhamak: Exactly. >> Can you share your vision on that? 'Cause that seems to be where the dots are connecting. >> Yes, perhaps further into the future because just from where we stand, we have to create still that bridge of familiarity between that future and present. So we are still in that bridge making mode. However, by just the basic notion of saying, "I'm going to put an API in front of my data." And that API today might be as primitive as a level of indirection, as in you tell me what you want, tell me who you are, let me go process that, all the policies and lineage and insert all of this intelligence that need to happen. And then today, I will still give you a file. But by just defining that API and standardizing it now we have this amazing extension point that we can say, "Well, the next revision of this API, you not just tell me who you are, but you actually tell me what intelligence you're after. What's a logic that I need to go and now compute on your API?" And you can evolve that. Now you have a point of evolution to this very futuristic, I guess, future where you just described the question that you're asking from the ChatGPT. >> Well, this is the supercloud, go ahead, Dave. >> I have a question from a fan, I got to get it in. It's George Gilbert. And so his question is, you're blowing away the way we synchronize data from operational systems to the data stack to applications. So the concern that he has and he wants your feedback on this, is the data product app devs get exposed to more complexity with respect to moving data between data products or maybe it's attributes between data products? How do you respond to that? How do you see? Is that a problem? Is that something that is overstated or do you have an answer for that? >> Absolutely. So I think there's a sweet spot in getting data developers, data product developers closer to the app, but yet not overburdening them with the complexity of the application and application logic and yet reducing their cognitive load by localizing what they need to know about, which is that domain where they're operating within. Because what's happening right now? What's happening right now is that data engineers with, a ton of empathy for them for their high threshold of pain that they can deal with, they have been centralized, they've put into the data team, and they have been given this unbelievable task of make meaning out of data, put semantic over it, curate it, cleans it, and so on. So what we are saying is that get those folks embedded into the domain closer to the application developers. These are still separately moving units. Your app and your data products are independent, but yet tightly closed with each other, tightly coupled with each other based on the context of the domain. So reduce cognitive load by localizing what they need to know about to the domain, get them closer to the application, but yet have them separate from app because app provides a very different service. Transactional data for my e-commerce transaction. Data product provides a very different service. Longitudinal data for the variety of this intelligent analysis that I can do on the data. But yet it's all within the domain of e-commerce or sales or whatnot. >> It's a lot of decoupling and coupling create that cohesiveness architecture. So I have to ask you, this is an interesting question 'cause it came up on theCUBE all last year. Back on the old server data center days and cloud, SRE, Google coined the term, site reliability engineer, for someone to look over the hundreds of thousands of servers. We asked the question to data engineering community who have been suffering, by the way, I agree. Is there an SRE like role for data? Because in a way data engineering, that platform engineer, they are like the SRE for data. In other words managing the large scale to enable automation and cell service. What's your thoughts and reaction to that? >> Yes, exactly. So maybe we go through that history of how SRE came to be. So we had the first DevOps movement, which was remove the wall between dev and ops and bring them together. So you have one unit of one cross-functional units of the organization that's responsible for you build it, you run it. So then there is no, I'm going to just shoot my application over the wall for somebody else to manage it. So we did that and then we said, okay, there is a ton, as we decentralized and had these many microservices running around, we had to create a layer that abstracted a lot of the complexity around running now a lot or monitoring, observing, and running a lot while giving autonomy to this cross-functional team. And that's where the SRE, a new generation of engineers came to exist. So I think if I just look at. >> Hence, Kubernetes. >> Hence, hence, exactly. Hence, chaos engineering. Hence, embracing the complexity and messiness. And putting engineering discipline to embrace that and yet give a cohesive and high integrity experience of those systems. So I think if we look at that evolution, perhaps something like that is happening by bringing data and apps closer and make them these domain-oriented data product teams or domain-oriented cross-functional teams full stop and still have a very advanced maybe at the platform level, infrastructure level operational team that they're not busy doing two jobs, which is taking care of domains and the infrastructure, but they're building infrastructure that is embracing that complexity, interconnectivity of this data process. >> So you see similarities? >> I see, absolutely. But I feel like we're probably in a more early days of that movement. >> So it's a data DevOps kind of thing happening where scales happening. It's good things are happening, yet a little bit fast and loose with some complexities to clean up. >> Yes. This is a different restructure. As you said, the job of this industry as a whole, an architect, is decompose recompose, decompose recompose in new way and now we're like decomposing centralized team, recomposing them as domains. >> So is data mesh the killer app for supercloud? >> You had to do this to me. >> Sorry, I couldn't resist. >> I know. Of course you want me to say this. >> Yes. >> Yes, of course. I mean, supercloud, I think it's really, the terminology supercloud, open cloud, but I think in spirits of it this embracing of diversity and giving autonomy for people to make decisions for what's right for them and not yet lock them in. I think just embracing that is baked into how data mesh assume the world would work. >> Well, thank you so much for coming on Supercloud 2. We really appreciate it. Data has driven this conversation. Your success of data mesh has really opened up the conversation and exposed the slow moving data industry. >> Dave: Been a great catalyst. >> That's now going well. We can move faster. So thanks for coming on. >> Thank you for hosting me. It was wonderful. >> Supercloud 2 live here in Palo Alto, our stage performance. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. We'll back with more after this short break. Stay with us all day for Supercloud 2. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave Vellante >> Enterprise tech practitioners, like most of us they want to make their lives easier so they can focus on delivering more value to their businesses. And to do so, they want to tap best of breed services in the public cloud, but at the same time connect their on-prem intellectual property to emerging applications which drive top line revenue and bottom line profits. But creating a consistent experience across clouds and on-prem estates has been an elusive capability for most organizations, forcing trade-offs and injecting friction into the system. The need to create seamless experiences is clear and the technology industry is starting to respond with platforms, architectures, and visions of what we've called the Supercloud. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis we give you a preview of Supercloud 2, the second event of its kind that we've had on the topic. Yes, folks that's right Supercloud 2 is here. As of this recording, it's just about four days away 33 guests, 21 sessions, combining live discussions and fireside chats from theCUBE's Palo Alto Studio with prerecorded conversations on the future of cloud and data. You can register for free at supercloud.world. And we are super excited about the Supercloud 2 lineup of guests whereas Supercloud 22 in August, was all about refining the definition of Supercloud testing its technical feasibility and understanding various deployment models. Supercloud 2 features practitioners, technologists and analysts discussing what customers need with real-world examples of Supercloud and will expose thinking around a new breed of cross-cloud apps, data apps, if you will that change the way machines and humans interact with each other. Now the example we'd use if you think about applications today, say a CRM system, sales reps, what are they doing? They're entering data into opportunities they're choosing products they're importing contacts, et cetera. And sure the machine can then take all that data and spit out a forecast by rep, by region, by product, et cetera. But today's applications are largely about filling in forms and or codifying processes. In the future, the Supercloud community sees a new breed of applications emerging where data resides on different clouds, in different data storages, databases, Lakehouse, et cetera. And the machine uses AI to inspect the e-commerce system the inventory data, supply chain information and other systems, and puts together a plan without any human intervention whatsoever. Think about a system that orchestrates people, places and things like an Uber for business. So at Supercloud 2, you'll hear about this vision along with some of today's challenges facing practitioners. Zhamak Dehghani, the founder of Data Mesh is a headliner. Kit Colbert also is headlining. He laid out at the first Supercloud an initial architecture for what that's going to look like. That was last August. And he's going to present his most current thinking on the topic. Veronika Durgin of Sachs will be featured and talk about data sharing across clouds and you know what she needs in the future. One of the main highlights of Supercloud 2 is a dive into Walmart's Supercloud. Other featured practitioners include Western Union Ionis Pharmaceuticals, Warner Media. We've got deep, deep technology dives with folks like Bob Muglia, David Flynn Tristan Handy of DBT Labs, Nir Zuk, the founder of Palo Alto Networks focused on security. Thomas Hazel, who's going to talk about a new type of database for Supercloud. It's several analysts including Keith Townsend Maribel Lopez, George Gilbert, Sanjeev Mohan and so many more guests, we don't have time to list them all. They're all up on supercloud.world with a full agenda, so you can check that out. Now let's take a look at some of the things that we're exploring in more detail starting with the Walmart Cloud native platform, they call it WCNP. We definitely see this as a Supercloud and we dig into it with Jack Greenfield. He's the head of architecture at Walmart. Here's a quote from Jack. "WCNP is an implementation of Kubernetes for the Walmart ecosystem. We've taken Kubernetes off the shelf as open source." By the way, they do the same thing with OpenStack. "And we have integrated it with a number of foundational services that provide other aspects of our computational environment. Kubernetes off the shelf doesn't do everything." And so what Walmart chose to do, they took a do-it-yourself approach to build a Supercloud for a variety of reasons that Jack will explain, along with Walmart's so-called triplet architecture connecting on-prem, Azure and GCP. No surprise, there's no Amazon at Walmart for obvious reasons. And what they do is they create a common experience for devs across clouds. Jack is going to talk about how Walmart is evolving its Supercloud in the future. You don't want to miss that. Now, next, let's take a look at how Veronica Durgin of SAKS thinks about data sharing across clouds. Data sharing we think is a potential killer use case for Supercloud. In fact, let's hear it in Veronica's own words. Please play the clip. >> How do we talk to each other? And more importantly, how do we data share? You know, I work with data, you know this is what I do. So if you know I want to get data from a company that's using, say Google, how do we share it in a smooth way where it doesn't have to be this crazy I don't know, SFTP file moving? So that's where I think Supercloud comes to me in my mind, is like practical applications. How do we create that mesh, that network that we can easily share data with each other? >> Now data mesh is a possible architectural approach that will enable more facile data sharing and the monetization of data products. You'll hear Zhamak Dehghani live in studio talking about what standards are missing to make this vision a reality across the Supercloud. Now one of the other things that we're really excited about is digging deeper into the right approach for Supercloud adoption. And we're going to share a preview of a debate that's going on right now in the community. Bob Muglia, former CEO of Snowflake and Microsoft Exec was kind enough to spend some time looking at the community's supercloud definition and he felt that it needed to be simplified. So in near real time he came up with the following definition that we're showing here. I'll read it. "A Supercloud is a platform that provides programmatically consistent services hosted on heterogeneous cloud providers." So not only did Bob simplify the initial definition he's stressed that the Supercloud is a platform versus an architecture implying that the platform provider eg Snowflake, VMware, Databricks, Cohesity, et cetera is responsible for determining the architecture. Now interestingly in the shared Google doc that the working group uses to collaborate on the supercloud de definition, Dr. Nelu Mihai who is actually building a Supercloud responded as follows to Bob's assertion "We need to avoid creating many Supercloud platforms with their own architectures. If we do that, then we create other proprietary clouds on top of existing ones. We need to define an architecture of how Supercloud interfaces with all other clouds. What is the information model? What is the execution model and how users will interact with Supercloud?" What does this seemingly nuanced point tell us and why does it matter? Well, history suggests that de facto standards will emerge more quickly to resolve real world practitioner problems and catch on more quickly than consensus-based architectures and standards-based architectures. But in the long run, the ladder may serve customers better. So we'll be exploring this topic in more detail in Supercloud 2, and of course we'd love to hear what you think platform, architecture, both? Now one of the real technical gurus that we'll have in studio at Supercloud two is David Flynn. He's one of the people behind the the movement that enabled enterprise flash adoption, that craze. And he did that with Fusion IO and he is now working on a system to enable read write data access to any user in any application in any data center or on any cloud anywhere. So think of this company as a Supercloud enabler. Allow me to share an excerpt from a conversation David Flore and I had with David Flynn last year. He as well gave a lot of thought to the Supercloud definition and was really helpful with an opinionated point of view. He said something to us that was, we thought relevant. "What is the operating system for a decentralized cloud? The main two functions of an operating system or an operating environment are one the process scheduler and two, the file system. The strongest argument for supercloud is made when you go down to the platform layer and talk about it as an operating environment on which you can run all forms of applications." So a couple of implications here that will be exploring with David Flynn in studio. First we're inferring from his comment that he's in the platform camp where the platform owner is responsible for the architecture and there are obviously trade-offs there and benefits but we'll have to clarify that with him. And second, he's basically saying, you kill the concept the further you move up the stack. So the weak, the further you move the stack the weaker the supercloud argument becomes because it's just becoming SaaS. Now this is something we're going to explore to better understand is thinking on this, but also whether the existing notion of SaaS is changing and whether or not a new breed of Supercloud apps will emerge. Which brings us to this really interesting fellow that George Gilbert and I RIFed with ahead of Supercloud two. Tristan Handy, he's the founder and CEO of DBT Labs and he has a highly opinionated and technical mind. Here's what he said, "One of the things that we still don't know how to API-ify is concepts that live inside of your data warehouse inside of your data lake. These are core concepts that the business should be able to create applications around very easily. In fact, that's not the case because it involves a lot of data engineering pipeline and other work to make these available. So if you really want to make it easy to create these data experiences for users you need to have an ability to describe these metrics and then to turn them into APIs to make them accessible to application developers who have literally no idea how they're calculated behind the scenes and they don't need to." A lot of implications to this statement that will explore at Supercloud two versus Jamma Dani's data mesh comes into play here with her critique of hyper specialized data pipeline experts with little or no domain knowledge. Also the need for simplified self-service infrastructure which Kit Colbert is likely going to touch upon. Veronica Durgin of SAKS and her ideal state for data shearing along with Harveer Singh of Western Union. They got to deal with 200 locations around the world in data privacy issues, data sovereignty how do you share data safely? Same with Nick Taylor of Ionis Pharmaceutical. And not to blow your mind but Thomas Hazel and Bob Muglia deposit that to make data apps a reality across the Supercloud you have to rethink everything. You can't just let in memory databases and caching architectures take care of everything in a brute force manner. Rather you have to get down to really detailed levels even things like how data is laid out on disk, ie flash and think about rewriting applications for the Supercloud and the MLAI era. All of this and more at Supercloud two which wouldn't be complete without some data. So we pinged our friends from ETR Eric Bradley and Darren Bramberm to see if they had any data on Supercloud that we could tap. And so we're going to be analyzing a number of the players as well at Supercloud two. Now, many of you are familiar with this graphic here we show some of the players involved in delivering or enabling Supercloud-like capabilities. On the Y axis is spending momentum and on the horizontal accesses market presence or pervasiveness in the data. So netscore versus what they call overlap or end in the data. And the table insert shows how the dots are plotted now not to steal ETR's thunder but the first point is you really can't have supercloud without the hyperscale cloud platforms which is shown on this graphic. But the exciting aspect of Supercloud is the opportunity to build value on top of that hyperscale infrastructure. Snowflake here continues to show strong spending velocity as those Databricks, Hashi, Rubrik. VMware Tanzu, which we all put under the magnifying glass after the Broadcom announcements, is also showing momentum. Unfortunately due to a scheduling conflict we weren't able to get Red Hat on the program but they're clearly a player here. And we've put Cohesity and Veeam on the chart as well because backup is a likely use case across clouds and on-premises. And now one other call out that we drill down on at Supercloud two is CloudFlare, which actually uses the term supercloud maybe in a different way. They look at Supercloud really as you know, serverless on steroids. And so the data brains at ETR will have more to say on this topic at Supercloud two along with many others. Okay, so why should you attend Supercloud two? What's in it for me kind of thing? So first of all, if you're a practitioner and you want to understand what the possibilities are for doing cross-cloud services for monetizing data how your peers are doing data sharing, how some of your peers are actually building out a Supercloud you're going to get real world input from practitioners. If you're a technologist, you're trying to figure out various ways to solve problems around data, data sharing, cross-cloud service deployment there's going to be a number of deep technology experts that are going to share how they're doing it. We're also going to drill down with Walmart into a practical example of Supercloud with some other examples of how practitioners are dealing with cross-cloud complexity. Some of them, by the way, are kind of thrown up their hands and saying, Hey, we're going mono cloud. And we'll talk about the potential implications and dangers and risks of doing that. And also some of the benefits. You know, there's a question, right? Is Supercloud the same wine new bottle or is it truly something different that can drive substantive business value? So look, go to Supercloud.world it's January 17th at 9:00 AM Pacific. You can register for free and participate directly in the program. Okay, that's a wrap. I want to give a shout out to the Supercloud supporters. VMware has been a great partner as our anchor sponsor Chaos Search Proximo, and Alura as well. For contributing to the effort I want to thank Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast. Ken Schiffman is his supporting cast as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight to help get the word out on social media and at our newsletters. And Rob Ho is our editor-in-chief over at Silicon Angle. Thank you all. Remember, these episodes are all available as podcast. Wherever you listen we really appreciate the support that you've given. We just saw some stats from from Buzz Sprout, we hit the top 25% we're almost at 400,000 downloads last year. So really appreciate your participation. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcast and you'll find those I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Or if you want to get ahold of me you can email me directly at David.Vellante@siliconangle.com or dm me DVellante or comment on our LinkedIn post. I want you to check out etr.ai. They've got the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next week at Supercloud two or next time on breaking analysis. (light music)

>>From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and E T R. This is breaking analysis with Dave Valante. >>Making technology predictions in 2022 was tricky business, especially if you were projecting the performance of markets or identifying I P O prospects and making binary forecast on data AI and the macro spending climate and other related topics in enterprise tech 2022, of course was characterized by a seesaw economy where central banks were restructuring their balance sheets. The war on Ukraine fueled inflation supply chains were a mess. And the unintended consequences of of forced march to digital and the acceleration still being sorted out. Hello and welcome to this week's weekly on Cube Insights powered by E T R. In this breaking analysis, we continue our annual tradition of transparently grading last year's enterprise tech predictions. And you may or may not agree with our self grading system, but look, we're gonna give you the data and you can draw your own conclusions and tell you what, tell us what you think. >>All right, let's get right to it. So our first prediction was tech spending increases by 8% in 2022. And as we exited 2021 CIOs, they were optimistic about their digital transformation plans. You know, they rushed to make changes to their business and were eager to sharpen their focus and continue to iterate on their digital business models and plug the holes that they, the, in the learnings that they had. And so we predicted that 8% rise in enterprise tech spending, which looked pretty good until Ukraine and the Fed decided that, you know, had to rush and make up for lost time. We kind of nailed the momentum in the energy sector, but we can't give ourselves too much credit for that layup. And as of October, Gartner had it spending growing at just over 5%. I think it was 5.1%. So we're gonna take a C plus on this one and, and move on. >>Our next prediction was basically kind of a slow ground ball. The second base, if I have to be honest, but we felt it was important to highlight that security would remain front and center as the number one priority for organizations in 2022. As is our tradition, you know, we try to up the degree of difficulty by specifically identifying companies that are gonna benefit from these trends. So we highlighted some possible I P O candidates, which of course didn't pan out. S NQ was on our radar. The company had just had to do another raise and they recently took a valuation hit and it was a down round. They raised 196 million. So good chunk of cash, but, but not the i p O that we had predicted Aqua Securities focus on containers and cloud native. That was a trendy call and we thought maybe an M SS P or multiple managed security service providers like Arctic Wolf would I p o, but no way that was happening in the crummy market. >>Nonetheless, we think these types of companies, they're still faring well as the talent shortage in security remains really acute, particularly in the sort of mid-size and small businesses that often don't have a sock Lacework laid off 20% of its workforce in 2022. And CO C e o Dave Hatfield left the company. So that I p o didn't, didn't happen. It was probably too early for Lacework. Anyway, meanwhile you got Netscope, which we've cited as strong in the E T R data as particularly in the emerging technology survey. And then, you know, I lumia holding its own, you know, we never liked that 7 billion price tag that Okta paid for auth zero, but we loved the TAM expansion strategy to target developers beyond sort of Okta's enterprise strength. But we gotta take some points off of the failure thus far of, of Okta to really nail the integration and the go to market model with azero and build, you know, bring that into the, the, the core Okta. >>So the focus on endpoint security that was a winner in 2022 is CrowdStrike led that charge with others holding their own, not the least of which was Palo Alto Networks as it continued to expand beyond its core network security and firewall business, you know, through acquisition. So overall we're gonna give ourselves an A minus for this relatively easy call, but again, we had some specifics associated with it to make it a little tougher. And of course we're watching ve very closely this this coming year in 2023. The vendor consolidation trend. You know, according to a recent Palo Alto network survey with 1300 SecOps pros on average organizations have more than 30 tools to manage security tools. So this is a logical way to optimize cost consolidating vendors and consolidating redundant vendors. The E T R data shows that's clearly a trend that's on the upswing. >>Now moving on, a big theme of 2020 and 2021 of course was remote work and hybrid work and new ways to work and return to work. So we predicted in 2022 that hybrid work models would become the dominant protocol, which clearly is the case. We predicted that about 33% of the workforce would come back to the office in 2022 in September. The E T R data showed that figure was at 29%, but organizations expected that 32% would be in the office, you know, pretty much full-time by year end. That hasn't quite happened, but we were pretty close with the projection, so we're gonna take an A minus on this one. Now, supply chain disruption was another big theme that we felt would carry through 2022. And sure that sounds like another easy one, but as is our tradition, again we try to put some binary metrics around our predictions to put some meat in the bone, so to speak, and and allow us than you to say, okay, did it come true or not? >>So we had some data that we presented last year and supply chain issues impacting hardware spend. We said at the time, you can see this on the left hand side of this chart, the PC laptop demand would remain above pre covid levels, which would reverse a decade of year on year declines, which I think started in around 2011, 2012. Now, while demand is down this year pretty substantially relative to 2021, I D C has worldwide unit shipments for PCs at just over 300 million for 22. If you go back to 2019 and you're looking at around let's say 260 million units shipped globally, you know, roughly, so, you know, pretty good call there. Definitely much higher than pre covid levels. But so what you might be asking why the B, well, we projected that 30% of customers would replace security appliances with cloud-based services and that more than a third would replace their internal data center server and storage hardware with cloud services like 30 and 40% respectively. >>And we don't have explicit survey data on exactly these metrics, but anecdotally we see this happening in earnest. And we do have some data that we're showing here on cloud adoption from ET R'S October survey where the midpoint of workloads running in the cloud is around 34% and forecast, as you can see, to grow steadily over the next three years. So this, well look, this is not, we understand it's not a one-to-one correlation with our prediction, but it's a pretty good bet that we were right, but we gotta take some points off, we think for the lack of unequivocal proof. Cause again, we always strive to make our predictions in ways that can be measured as accurate or not. Is it binary? Did it happen, did it not? Kind of like an O K R and you know, we strive to provide data as proof and in this case it's a bit fuzzy. >>We have to admit that although we're pretty comfortable that the prediction was accurate. And look, when you make an hard forecast, sometimes you gotta pay the price. All right, next, we said in 2022 that the big four cloud players would generate 167 billion in IS and PaaS revenue combining for 38% market growth. And our current forecasts are shown here with a comparison to our January, 2022 figures. So coming into this year now where we are today, so currently we expect 162 billion in total revenue and a 33% growth rate. Still very healthy, but not on our mark. So we think a w s is gonna miss our predictions by about a billion dollars, not, you know, not bad for an 80 billion company. So they're not gonna hit that expectation though of getting really close to a hundred billion run rate. We thought they'd exit the year, you know, closer to, you know, 25 billion a quarter and we don't think they're gonna get there. >>Look, we pretty much nailed Azure even though our prediction W was was correct about g Google Cloud platform surpassing Alibaba, Alibaba, we way overestimated the performance of both of those companies. So we're gonna give ourselves a C plus here and we think, yeah, you might think it's a little bit harsh, we could argue for a B minus to the professor, but the misses on GCP and Alibaba we think warrant a a self penalty on this one. All right, let's move on to our prediction about Supercloud. We said it becomes a thing in 2022 and we think by many accounts it has, despite the naysayers, we're seeing clear evidence that the concept of a layer of value add that sits above and across clouds is taking shape. And on this slide we showed just some of the pickup in the industry. I mean one of the most interesting is CloudFlare, the biggest supercloud antagonist. >>Charles Fitzgerald even predicted that no vendor would ever use the term in their marketing. And that would be proof if that happened that Supercloud was a thing and he said it would never happen. Well CloudFlare has, and they launched their version of Supercloud at their developer week. Chris Miller of the register put out a Supercloud block diagram, something else that Charles Fitzgerald was, it was was pushing us for, which is rightly so, it was a good call on his part. And Chris Miller actually came up with one that's pretty good at David Linthicum also has produced a a a A block diagram, kind of similar, David uses the term metacloud and he uses the term supercloud kind of interchangeably to describe that trend. And so we we're aligned on that front. Brian Gracely has covered the concept on the popular cloud podcast. Berkeley launched the Sky computing initiative. >>You read through that white paper and many of the concepts highlighted in the Supercloud 3.0 community developed definition align with that. Walmart launched a platform with many of the supercloud salient attributes. So did Goldman Sachs, so did Capital One, so did nasdaq. So you know, sorry you can hate the term, but very clearly the evidence is gathering for the super cloud storm. We're gonna take an a plus on this one. Sorry, haters. Alright, let's talk about data mesh in our 21 predictions posts. We said that in the 2020s, 75% of large organizations are gonna re-architect their big data platforms. So kind of a decade long prediction. We don't like to do that always, but sometimes it's warranted. And because it was a longer term prediction, we, at the time in, in coming into 22 when we were evaluating our 21 predictions, we took a grade of incomplete because the sort of decade long or majority of the decade better part of the decade prediction. >>So last year, earlier this year, we said our number seven prediction was data mesh gains momentum in 22. But it's largely confined and narrow data problems with limited scope as you can see here with some of the key bullets. So there's a lot of discussion in the data community about data mesh and while there are an increasing number of examples, JP Morgan Chase, Intuit, H S P C, HelloFresh, and others that are completely rearchitecting parts of their data platform completely rearchitecting entire data platforms is non-trivial. There are organizational challenges, there're data, data ownership, debates, technical considerations, and in particular two of the four fundamental data mesh principles that the, the need for a self-service infrastructure and federated computational governance are challenging. Look, democratizing data and facilitating data sharing creates conflicts with regulatory requirements around data privacy. As such many organizations are being really selective with their data mesh implementations and hence our prediction of narrowing the scope of data mesh initiatives. >>I think that was right on J P M C is a good example of this, where you got a single group within a, within a division narrowly implementing the data mesh architecture. They're using a w s, they're using data lakes, they're using Amazon Glue, creating a catalog and a variety of other techniques to meet their objectives. They kind of automating data quality and it was pretty well thought out and interesting approach and I think it's gonna be made easier by some of the announcements that Amazon made at the recent, you know, reinvent, particularly trying to eliminate ET t l, better connections between Aurora and Redshift and, and, and better data sharing the data clean room. So a lot of that is gonna help. Of course, snowflake has been on this for a while now. Many other companies are facing, you know, limitations as we said here and this slide with their Hadoop data platforms. They need to do new, some new thinking around that to scale. HelloFresh is a really good example of this. Look, the bottom line is that organizations want to get more value from data and having a centralized, highly specialized teams that own the data problem, it's been a barrier and a blocker to success. The data mesh starts with organizational considerations as described in great detail by Ash Nair of Warner Brothers. So take a listen to this clip. >>Yeah, so when people think of Warner Brothers, you always think of like the movie studio, but we're more than that, right? I mean, you think of H B O, you think of t n t, you think of C N N. We have 30 plus brands in our portfolio and each have their own needs. So the, the idea of a data mesh really helps us because what we can do is we can federate access across the company so that, you know, CNN can work at their own pace. You know, when there's election season, they can ingest their own data and they don't have to, you know, bump up against, as an example, HBO if Game of Thrones is going on. >>So it's often the case that data mesh is in the eyes of the implementer. And while a company's implementation may not strictly adhere to Jamma Dani's vision of data mesh, and that's okay, the goal is to use data more effectively. And despite Gartner's attempts to deposition data mesh in favor of the somewhat confusing or frankly far more confusing data fabric concept that they stole from NetApp data mesh is taking hold in organizations globally today. So we're gonna take a B on this one. The prediction is shaping up the way we envision, but as we previously reported, it's gonna take some time. The better part of a decade in our view, new standards have to emerge to make this vision become reality and they'll come in the form of both open and de facto approaches. Okay, our eighth prediction last year focused on the face off between Snowflake and Databricks. >>And we realized this popular topic, and maybe one that's getting a little overplayed, but these are two companies that initially, you know, looked like they were shaping up as partners and they, by the way, they are still partnering in the field. But you go back a couple years ago, the idea of using an AW w s infrastructure, Databricks machine intelligence and applying that on top of Snowflake as a facile data warehouse, still very viable. But both of these companies, they have much larger ambitions. They got big total available markets to chase and large valuations that they have to justify. So what's happening is, as we've previously reported, each of these companies is moving toward the other firm's core domain and they're building out an ecosystem that'll be critical for their future. So as part of that effort, we said each is gonna become aggressive investors and maybe start doing some m and a and they have in various companies. >>And on this chart that we produced last year, we studied some of the companies that were targets and we've added some recent investments of both Snowflake and Databricks. As you can see, they've both, for example, invested in elation snowflake's, put money into Lacework, the Secur security firm, ThoughtSpot, which is trying to democratize data with ai. Collibra is a governance platform and you can see Databricks investments in data transformation with D B T labs, Matillion doing simplified business intelligence hunters. So that's, you know, they're security investment and so forth. So other than our thought that we'd see Databricks I p o last year, this prediction been pretty spot on. So we'll give ourselves an A on that one. Now observability has been a hot topic and we've been covering it for a while with our friends at E T R, particularly Eric Bradley. Our number nine prediction last year was basically that if you're not cloud native and observability, you are gonna be in big trouble. >>So everything guys gotta go cloud native. And that's clearly been the case. Splunk, the big player in the space has been transitioning to the cloud, hasn't always been pretty, as we reported, Datadog real momentum, the elk stack, that's open source model. You got new entrants that we've cited before, like observe, honeycomb, chaos search and others that we've, we've reported on, they're all born in the cloud. So we're gonna take another a on this one, admittedly, yeah, it's a re reasonably easy call, but you gotta have a few of those in the mix. Okay, our last prediction, our number 10 was around events. Something the cube knows a little bit about. We said that a new category of events would emerge as hybrid and that for the most part is happened. So that's gonna be the mainstay is what we said. That pure play virtual events are gonna give way to hi hybrid. >>And the narrative is that virtual only events are, you know, they're good for quick hits, but lousy replacements for in-person events. And you know that said, organizations of all shapes and sizes, they learn how to create better virtual content and support remote audiences during the pandemic. So when we set at pure play is gonna give way to hybrid, we said we, we i we implied or specific or specified that the physical event that v i p experience is going defined. That overall experience and those v i p events would create a little fomo, fear of, of missing out in a virtual component would overlay that serves an audience 10 x the size of the physical. We saw that really two really good examples. Red Hat Summit in Boston, small event, couple thousand people served tens of thousands, you know, online. Second was Google Cloud next v i p event in, in New York City. >>Everything else was, was, was, was virtual. You know, even examples of our prediction of metaverse like immersion have popped up and, and and, and you know, other companies are doing roadshow as we predicted like a lot of companies are doing it. You're seeing that as a major trend where organizations are going with their sales teams out into the regions and doing a little belly to belly action as opposed to the big giant event. That's a definitely a, a trend that we're seeing. So in reviewing this prediction, the grade we gave ourselves is, you know, maybe a bit unfair, it should be, you could argue for a higher grade, but the, but the organization still haven't figured it out. They have hybrid experiences but they generally do a really poor job of leveraging the afterglow and of event of an event. It still tends to be one and done, let's move on to the next event or the next city. >>Let the sales team pick up the pieces if they were paying attention. So because of that, we're only taking a B plus on this one. Okay, so that's the review of last year's predictions. You know, overall if you average out our grade on the 10 predictions that come out to a b plus, I dunno why we can't seem to get that elusive a, but we're gonna keep trying our friends at E T R and we are starting to look at the data for 2023 from the surveys and all the work that we've done on the cube and our, our analysis and we're gonna put together our predictions. We've had literally hundreds of inbounds from PR pros pitching us. We've got this huge thick folder that we've started to review with our yellow highlighter. And our plan is to review it this month, take a look at all the data, get some ideas from the inbounds and then the e t R of January surveys in the field. >>It's probably got a little over a thousand responses right now. You know, they'll get up to, you know, 1400 or so. And once we've digested all that, we're gonna go back and publish our predictions for 2023 sometime in January. So stay tuned for that. All right, we're gonna leave it there for today. You wanna thank Alex Myerson who's on production and he manages the podcast, Ken Schiffman as well out of our, our Boston studio. I gotta really heartfelt thank you to Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight and their team. They helped get the word out on social and in our newsletters. Rob Ho is our editor in chief over at Silicon Angle who does some great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these podcasts are available or all these episodes are available is podcasts. Wherever you listen, just all you do Search Breaking analysis podcast, really getting some great traction there. Appreciate you guys subscribing. I published each week on wikibon.com, silicon angle.com or you can email me directly at david dot valante silicon angle.com or dm me Dante, or you can comment on my LinkedIn post. And please check out ETR AI for the very best survey data in the enterprise tech business. Some awesome stuff in there. This is Dante for the Cube Insights powered by etr. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time on breaking analysis.

(upbeat techno music) >> Collibra is a company that was founded in 2008 right before the so-called modern big data era kicked into high gear. The company was one of the first to focus its business on data governance. Now, historically, data governance and data quality initiatives, they were back office functions, and they were largely confined to regulated industries that had to comply with public policy mandates. But as the cloud went mainstream the tech giants showed us how valuable data could become, and the value proposition for data quality and trust, it evolved from primarily a compliance driven issue, to becoming a linchpin of competitive advantage. But, data in the decade of the 2010s was largely about getting the technology to work. You had these highly centralized technical teams that were formed and they had hyper-specialized skills, to develop data architectures and processes, to serve the myriad data needs of organizations. And it resulted in a lot of frustration, with data initiatives for most organizations, that didn't have the resources of the cloud guys and the social media giants, to really attack their data problems and turn data into gold. This is why today, for example, there's quite a bit of momentum to re-thinking monolithic data architectures. You see, you hear about initiatives like Data Mesh and the idea of data as a product. They're gaining traction as a way to better serve the the data needs of decentralized business users. You hear a lot about data democratization. So these decentralization efforts around data, they're great, but they create a new set of problems. Specifically, how do you deliver, like a self-service infrastructure to business users and domain experts? Now the cloud is definitely helping with that but also, how do you automate governance? This becomes especially tricky as protecting data privacy has become more and more important. In other words, while it's enticing to experiment, and run fast and loose with data initiatives, kind of like the Wild West, to find new veins of gold, it has to be done responsibly. As such, the idea of data governance has had to evolve to become more automated and intelligent. Governance and data lineage is still fundamental to ensuring trust as data. It moves like water through an organization. No one is going to use data that is entrusted. Metadata has become increasingly important for data discovery and data classification. As data flows through an organization, the continuously ability to check for data flaws and automating that data quality, they become a functional requirement of any modern data management platform. And finally, data privacy has become a critical adjacency to cyber security. So you can see how data governance has evolved into a much richer set of capabilities than it was 10 or 15 years ago. Hello and welcome to theCUBE's coverage of Data Citizens made possible by Collibra, a leader in so-called Data intelligence and the host of Data Citizens 2022, which is taking place in San Diego. My name is Dave Vellante and I'm one of the hosts of our program which is running in parallel to Data Citizens. Now at theCUBE we like to say we extract the signal from the noise, and over the next couple of days we're going to feature some of the themes from the keynote speakers at Data Citizens, and we'll hear from several of the executives. Felix Van de Maele, who is the co-founder and CEO of Collibra, will join us. Along with one of the other founders of Collibra, Stan Christiaens, who's going to join my colleague Lisa Martin. I'm going to also sit down with Laura Sellers, she's the Chief Product Officer at Collibra. We'll talk about some of the the announcements and innovations they're making at the event, and then we'll dig in further to data quality with Kirk Haslbeck. He's the Vice President of Data Quality at Collibra. He's an amazingly smart dude who founded Owl DQ, a company that he sold to Collibra last year. Now, many companies they didn't make it through the Hadoop era, you know they missed the industry waves and they became driftwood. Collibra, on the other hand, has evolved its business, they've leveraged the cloud, expanded its product portfolio and leaned in heavily to some major partnerships with cloud providers as well as receiving a strategic investment from Snowflake, earlier this year. So, it's a really interesting story that we're thrilled to be sharing with you. Thanks for watching and I hope you enjoy the program. (upbeat rock music) Last year theCUBE covered Data Citizens, Collibra's customer event, and the premise that we put forth prior to that event was that despite all the innovation that's gone on over the last decade or more with data, you know starting with the Hadoop movement, we had Data lakes, we had Spark, the ascendancy of programming languages like Python, the introduction of frameworks like Tensorflow, the rise of AI, Low Code, No Code, et cetera. Businesses still find it's too difficult to get more value from their data initiatives, and we said at the time, you know maybe it's time to rethink data innovation. While a lot of the effort has been focused on, you more efficiently storing and processing data, perhaps more energy needs to go into thinking about the people and the process side of the equation. Meaning, making it easier for domain experts to both gain insights from data, trust the data, and begin to use that data in new ways, fueling data products, monetization, and insights. Data Citizens 2022 is back and we're pleased to have Felix Van de Maele who is the founder and CEO of Collibra. He's on theCUBE. We're excited to have you Felix. Good to see you again. >> Likewise Dave. Thanks for having me again. >> You bet. All right, we're going to get the update from Felix on the current data landscape, how he sees it why data intelligence is more important now than ever, and get current on what Collibra has been up to over the past year, and what's changed since Data citizens 2021, and we may even touch on some of the product news. So Felix, we're living in a very different world today with businesses and consumers. They're struggling with things like supply chains, uncertain economic trends and we're not just snapping back to the 2010s, that's clear, and that's really true as well in the world of data. So what's different in your mind, in the data landscape of the 2020s, from the previous decade, and what challenges does that bring for your customers? >> Yeah, absolutely, and and I think you said it well, Dave and the intro that, that rising complexity and fragmentation, in the broader data landscape, that hasn't gotten any better over the last couple of years. When when we talk to our customers, that level of fragmentation, the complexity, how do we find data that we can trust, that we know we can use, has only gotten more more difficult. So that trend that's continuing, I think what is changing is that trend has become much more acute. Well, the other thing we've seen over the last couple of years is that the level of scrutiny that organizations are under, respect to data, as data becomes more mission critical, as data becomes more impactful than important, the level of scrutiny with respect to privacy, security, regulatory compliance, as only increasing as well. Which again, is really difficult in this environment of continuous innovation, continuous change, continuous growing complexity, and fragmentation. So, it's become much more acute. And to your earlier point, we do live in a different world and and the past couple of years we could probably just kind of brute force it, right? We could focus on, on the top line, there was enough kind of investments to be, to be had. I think nowadays organizations are focused or are, are, are are, are, are in a very different environment where there's much more focus on cost control, productivity, efficiency, how do we truly get the value from that data? So again, I think it just another incentive for organization to now truly look at data and to scale with data, not just from a a technology and infrastructure perspective, but how do we actually scale data from an organizational perspective, right? You said at the, the people and process, how do we do that at scale? And that's only, only, only becoming much more important, and we do believe that the, the economic environment that we find ourselves in today is going to be catalyst for organizations to really take that more seriously if, if, if you will, than they maybe have in the have in the past. >> You know, I don't know when you guys founded Collibra, if you had a sense as to how complicated it was going to get, but you've been on a mission to really address these problems from the beginning. How would you describe your, your, your mission and what are you doing to address these challenges? >> Yeah, absolutely. We, we started Collibra in 2008. So, in some sense and the, the last kind of financial crisis and that was really the, the start of Collibra, where we found product market fit, working with large financial institutions to help them cope with the increasing compliance requirements that they were faced with because of the, of the financial crisis. And kind of here we are again, in a very different environment of course 15 years, almost 15 years later, but data only becoming more important. But our mission to deliver trusted data for every user, every use case and across every source, frankly, has only become more important. So, what has been an incredible journey over the last 14, 15 years, I think we're still relatively early in our mission to again, be able to provide everyone, and that's why we call it Data Citizens, we truly believe that everyone in the organization should be able to use trusted data in an easy, easy matter. That mission is is only becoming more important, more relevant. We definitely have a lot more work ahead of us because we still relatively early in that, in that journey. >> Well that's interesting, because you know, in my observation it takes 7 to 10 years to actually build a company, and then the fact that you're still in the early days is kind of interesting. I mean, you, Collibra's had a good 12 months or so since we last spoke at Data Citizens. Give us the latest update on your business. What do people need to know about your current momentum? >> Yeah, absolutely. Again, there's a lot of tailwind organizations that are only maturing their data practices and we've seen that kind of transform or influence a lot of our business growth that we've seen, broader adoption of the platform. We work at some of the largest organizations in the world with its Adobe, Heineken, Bank of America and many more. We have now over 600 enterprise customers, all industry leaders and every single vertical. So it's, it's really exciting to see that and continue to partner with those organizations. On the partnership side, again, a lot of momentum in the org in the, in the market with some of the cloud partners like Google, Amazon, Snowflake, Data Breaks, and and others, right? As those kind of new modern data infrastructures, modern data architectures, are definitely all moving to the cloud. A great opportunity for us, our partners, and of course our customers, to help them kind of transition to the cloud even faster. And so we see a lot of excitement and momentum there. We did an acquisition about 18 months ago around data quality, data observability, which we believe is an enormous opportunity. Of course data quality isn't new but I think there's a lot of reasons why we're so excited about quality and observability now. One, is around leveraging AI machine learning again to drive more automation. And a second is that those data pipelines, that are now being created in the cloud, in these modern data architecture, architectures, they've become mission critical. They've become real time. And so monitoring, observing those data pipelines continuously, has become absolutely critical so that they're really excited about, about that as well. And on the organizational side, I'm sure you've heard the term around kind of data mesh, something that's gaining a lot of momentum, rightfully so. It's really the type of governance that we always believed in. Federated, focused on domains, giving a lot of ownership to different teams. I think that's the way to scale data organizations, and so that aligns really well with our vision and from a product perspective, we've seen a lot of momentum with our customers there as well. >> Yeah, you know, a couple things there. I mean, the acquisition of OwlDQ, you know Kirk Haslbeck and, and their team. It's interesting, you know the whole data quality used to be this back office function and and really confined to highly regulated industries. It's come to the front office, it's top of mind for Chief Data Officers. Data mesh, you mentioned you guys are a connective tissue for all these different nodes on the data mesh. That's key. And of course we see you at all the shows. You're, you're a critical part of many ecosystems and you're developing your own ecosystem. So, let's chat a little bit about the, the products. We're going to go deeper into products later on, at Data Citizens 22, but we know you're debuting some, some new innovations, you know, whether it's, you know, the the under the covers in security, sort of making data more accessible for people, just dealing with workflows and processes, as you talked about earlier. Tell us a little bit about what you're introducing. >> Yeah, absolutely. We we're super excited, a ton of innovation. And if we think about the big theme and like, like I said, we're still relatively early in this, in this journey towards kind of that mission of data intelligence that really bolts and compelling mission. Either customers are still start, are just starting on that, on that journey. We want to make it as easy as possible for the, for organization to actually get started, because we know that's important that they do. And for our organization and customers, that have been with us for some time, there's still a tremendous amount of opportunity to kind of expand the platform further. And again to make it easier for, really to, to accomplish that mission and vision around that Data Citizen, that everyone has access to trustworthy data in a very easy, easy way. So that's really the theme of a lot of the innovation that we're driving, a lot of kind of ease of adoption, ease of use, but also then, how do we make sure that, as clear becomes this kind of mission critical enterprise platform, from a security performance, architecture scale supportability, that we're truly able to deliver that kind of an enterprise mission critical platform. And so that's the big theme. From an innovation perspective, from a product perspective, a lot of new innovation that we're really excited about. A couple of highlights. One, is around data marketplace. Again, a lot of our customers have plans in that direction, How to make it easy? How do we make How do we make available to true kind of shopping experience? So that anybody in the organization can, in a very easy search first way, find the right data product, find the right dataset, that they can then consume. Usage analytics, how do you, how do we help organizations drive adoption? Tell them where they're working really well and where they have opportunities. Homepages again to, to make things easy for, for people, for anyone in your organization, to kind of get started with Collibra. You mentioned Workflow Designer, again, we have a very powerful enterprise platform, one of our key differentiators is the ability to really drive a lot of automation through workflows. And now we provided a, a new Low-Code, No-Code kind of workflow designer experience. So, so really customers can take it to the next level. There's a lot more new product around Collibra protect, which in partnership with Snowflake, which has been a strategic investor in Collibra, focused on how do we make access governance easier? How do we, how do we, how are we able to make sure that as you move to the cloud, things like access management, masking around sensitive data, PIA data, is managed as a much more effective, effective rate. Really excited about that product. There's more around data quality. Again, how do we, how do we get that deployed as easily, and quickly, and widely as we can? Moving that to the cloud has been a big part of our strategy. So, we launch our data quality cloud product, as well as making use of those, those native compute capabilities and platforms, like Snowflake, Databricks, Google, Amazon, and others. And so we are bettering a capability, a capability that we call push down, so we're actually pushing down the computer and data quality, to monitoring into the underlying platform, which again from a scale performance and ease of use perspective, is going to make a massive difference. And then more broadly, we talked a little bit about the ecosystem. Again, integrations, we talk about being able to connect to every source. Integrations are absolutely critical, and we're really excited to deliver new integrations with Snowflake, Azure and Google Cloud storage as well. So that's a lot coming out, the team has been work, at work really hard, and we are really really excited about what we are coming, what we're bringing to market. >> Yeah, a lot going on there. I wonder if you could give us your, your closing thoughts. I mean, you you talked about, you know, the marketplace, you know you think about Data Mesh, you think of data as product, one of the key principles, you think about monetization. This is really different than what we've been used to in data, which is just getting the technology to work has been, been so hard. So, how do you see sort of the future and, you know give us the, your closing thoughts please? >> Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think we we're really at a pivotal moment and I think you said it well. We, we all know the constraint and the challenges with data, how to actually do data at scale. And while we've seen a ton of innovation on the infrastructure side, we fundamentally believe that just getting a faster database is important, but it's not going to fully solve the challenges and truly kind of deliver on the opportunity. And that's why now is really the time to, deliver this data intelligence vision, this data intelligence platform. We are still early, making it as easy as we can, as kind of our, as our mission. And so I'm really, really excited to see what we, what we are going to, how the marks are going to evolve over the next, next few quarters and years. I think the trend is clearly there. We talked about Data Mesh, this kind of federated approach focus on data products, is just another signal that we believe, that a lot of our organization are now at the time, they're understanding need to go beyond just the technology. I really, really think about how to actually scale data as a business function, just like we've done with IT, with HR, with sales and marketing, with finance. That's how we need to think about data. I think now is the time, given the economic environment that we are in, much more focus on control, much more focus on productivity, efficiency, and now is the time we need to look beyond just the technology and infrastructure to think of how to scale data, how to manage data at scale. >> Yeah, it's a new era. The next 10 years of data won't be like the last, as I always say. Felix, thanks so much. Good luck in, in San Diego. I know you're going to crush it out there. >> Thank you Dave. >> Yeah, it's a great spot for an in-person event and and of course the content post-event is going to be available at collibra.com and you can of course catch theCUBE coverage at theCUBE.net and all the news at siliconangle.com. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (upbeat techno music)

>>Set restaurants. And who says TEUs had got a little ass more skin in the game for us, in charge of his destiny? You guys are excited. Robert Worship is Chief Alumni. >>My name is Dave Ante, and I'm a long time industry analyst. So when you're as old as I am, you've seen a lot of transitions. Everybody talks about industry cycles and waves. I've seen many, many waves. Met a lot of industry executives and of a little bit of a, an industry historian. When you interview many thousands of people, probably five or 6,000 people as I have over the last half of a decade, you get to interact with a lot of people's knowledge and you begin to develop patterns. And so that's sort of what I bring is, is an ability to catalyze the conversation and, you know, share that knowledge with others in the community. Our philosophy is everybody's expert at something. Everybody's passionate about something and has real deep knowledge about that's something well, we wanna focus in on that area and extract that knowledge and share it with our communities. This is Dave Ante. Thanks for watching the Cube. >>Hello everyone and welcome back to the Cube where we are streaming live this week from CubeCon. I am Savannah Peterson and I am joined by an absolutely stellar lineup of cube brilliance this afternoon. To my left, a familiar face, Lisa Martin. Lisa, how you feeling? End of day two. >>Excellent. It was so much fun today. The buzz started yesterday, the momentum, the swell, and we only heard even more greatness today. >>Yeah, yeah, abs, absolutely. You know, I, I sometimes think we've hit an energy cliff, but it feels like the energy is just >>Continuous. Well, I think we're gonna, we're gonna slide right into tomorrow. >>Yeah, me too. I love it. And we've got two fantastic analysts with us today, Sarge and Keith. Thank you both for joining us. We feel so lucky today. >>Great being back on. >>Thanks for having us. Yeah, Yeah. It's nice to have you back on the show. We were, had you yesterday, but I miss hosting with you. It's been a while. >>It has been a while. We haven't done anything in since, Since pre >>Pandemic, right? Yeah, I think you're >>Right. Four times there >>Be four times back in the day. >>We, I always enjoy whole thing, Lisa, cuz she's so well prepared. I don't have to do any research when I come >>Home. >>Lisa will bring up some, Oh, sorry. Jeep, I see that in 2008 you won this award for Yeah. Being just excellent and I, I'm like, Oh >>Yeah. All right Keith. So, >>So did you do his analysis? >>Yeah, it's all done. Yeah. Great. He only part, he's not sitting next to me too. We can't see it, so it's gonna be like a magic crystal bell. Right. So a lot of people here. You got some stats in terms of the attendees compared >>To last year? Yeah, Priyanka told us we were double last year up to 8,000. We also got the scoop earlier that 2023 is gonna be in Chicago, which is very exciting. >>Oh, that is, is nice. Yeah, >>We got to break that here. >>Excellent. Keith, talk to us about what some of the things are that you've seen the last couple of days. The momentum. What's the vibe? I saw your tweet about the top three things you were being asked. Kubernetes was not one of them. >>Kubernetes were, was not one of 'em. This conference is starting to, it, it still feels very different than a vendor conference. The keynote is kind of, you know, kind of all over the place talking about projects, but the hallway track has been, you know, I've, this is maybe my fifth or sixth CU con in person. And the hallway track is different. It's less about projects and more about how, how do we adjust to the enterprise? How do we Yes. Actually do enterprise things. And it has been amazing watching this community grow. I'm gonna say grow up and mature. Yes. You know, you know, they're not wearing ties yet, but they are definitely understanding kind of the, the friction of implementing new technology in, in an enterprise. >>Yeah. So ge what's your, what's been your take, We were with you yesterday. What's been the take today to take aways? >>NOMA has changed since yesterday, but a few things I think I, I missed talking about that yesterday were that, first of all, let's just talk about Amazon. Amazon earnings came out, it spooked the market and I think it's relevant in this context as well, because they're number one cloud provider. Yeah. And all, I mean, almost all of these technologies on the back of us here, they are related to cloud, right? So it will have some impact on these. Like we have to analyze that. Like will it make the open source go faster or slower in, in lieu of the fact that the, the cloud growth is slowing. Right? So that's, that's one thing that's put that's put that aside. I've been thinking about the, the future of Kubernetes. What is the future of Kubernetes? And in that context, I was thinking like, you know, I think in, when I put a pointer there, I think in tangents, like, what else is around this thing? So I think CN CNCF has been writing the success of Kubernetes. They are, that was their number one flagship project, if you will. And it was mature enough to stand on its own. It it was Google, it's Google's Borg dub da Kubernetes. It's a genericized version of that. Right? So folks who do tech deep down, they know that, Right. So I think it's easier to stand with a solid, you know, project. But when the newer projects come in, then your medal will get tested at cncf. Right. >>And cncf, I mean they've got over 140 projects Yeah. Right now. So there's definitely much beyond >>Kubernetes. Yeah. So they, I have numbers there. 18 graduated, right, 37 in incubation and then 81 in Sandbox stage. They have three stages, right. So it's, they have a lot to chew on and the more they take on, the less, you know, quality you get goes into it. Who is, who's putting the money behind it? Which vendors are sponsoring like cncf, like how they're getting funded up. I think it >>Something I pay attention to as well. Yeah. Yeah. Lisa, I know you've got >>Some insight. Those are the things I was thinking about today. >>I gotta ask you, what's your take on what Keith said? Are you also seeing the maturation of the enterprise here at at coupon? >>Yes, I am actually, when you say enterprise versus what's the other side? Startups, right? Yeah. So startups start using open source a lot more earlier or lot more than enterprises. The enterprise is what they need. Number one thing is the, for their production workloads, they want a vendor sporting them. I said that yesterday as well, right? So it depend depending on the size of the enterprise. If you're a big shop, definitely if you have one of the 500 or Fortune five hundreds and your tech savvy shop, then you can absorb the open source directly coming from the open source sort of universe right. Coming to you. But if you are the second tier of enterprise, you want to go to a provider which is managed service provider, or it can be cloud service provider in this case. Yep. Most of the cloud service providers have multiple versions of Kubernetes, for example. >>I'm not talking about Kubernetes only, but like, but that is one example, right? So at Amazon you can get five different flavors of Kubernetes, right? Fully manage, have, manage all kind of stuff. So people don't have bandwidth to manage that stuff locally. You have to patch it, you have to roll in the new, you know, updates and all that stuff. Like, it's a lot of work for many. So CNCF actually is formed for that reason. Like the, the charter is to bring the quality to open source. Like in other companies they have the release process and they, the stringent guidelines and QA and all that stuff. So is is something ready for production? That's the question when it comes to any software, right? So they do that kind of work and, and, and they have these buckets defined at high level, but it needs more >>Work. Yeah. So one of the things that, you know, kind of stood out to me, I have good friend in the community, Alex Ellis, who does open Fast. It's a serverless platform, great platform. Two years ago or in 2019, there was a serverless day date. And in serverless day you had K Native, you had Open Pass, you had Ws, which is supported by IBM completely, not CNCF platforms. K native came into the CNCF full when Google donated the project a few months ago or a couple of years ago, now all of a sudden there's a K native day. Yes. Not a serverless day, it's a K native day. And I asked the, the CNCF event folks like, what happened to Serverless Day? I missed having open at serverless day. And you know, they, they came out and said, you know what, K native got big enough. >>They came in and I think Red Hat and Google wanted to sponsor a K native day. So serverless day went away. So I think what what I'm interested in and over the next couple of years is, is they're gonna be pushback from the C against the cncf. Is the CNCF now too big? Is it now the gatekeeper for do I have to be one of those 147 projects, right? In order enough to get my project noticed the open, fast, great project. I don't think Al Alex has any desire to have his project hosted by cncf, but it probably deserves, you know, shoulder left recognition with that. So I'm pushing to happen to say, okay, if this is open community, this is open source. If CNC is the place to have the cloud native conversation, what about the projects that's not cncf? Like how do we have that conversation when we don't have the power of a Google right. Or a, or a Lenox, et cetera, or a Lenox Foundation. So GE what, >>What are your thoughts on that? Is, is CNC too big? >>I don't think it's too big. I think it's too small to handle the, what we are doing in open source, right? So it's a bottle. It can become a bottleneck. Okay. I think too big in a way that yeah, it has, it has, it has power from that point of view. It has that cloud, if you will. The people listen to it. If it's CNCF project or this must be good, it's like in, in incubators. Like if you are y white Combinator, you know, company, it must be good. You know, I mean, may not be >>True, but, >>Oh, I think there's a bold assumption there though. I mean, I think everyone's just trying to do the best they can. And when we're evaluating projects, a very different origin and background, it's incredibly hard. Very c and staff is a staff of 30 people. They've got 180,000 people that are contributing to these projects and a thousand maintainers that they're trying to uphold. I think the challenge is actually really great. And to me, I actually look at events as an illustration of, you know, what's the culture and the health of an organization. If I were to evaluate CNCF based on that, I'd say we're very healthy right now. I would say that we're in a good spot. There's a lot of momentum. >>Yeah. I, I think CNCF is very healthy. I'm, I'm appreciative for it being here. I love coupon. It's becoming the, the facto conference to have this conversation has >>A totally >>Different vibe to other, It's a totally different vibe. Yeah. There needs to be a conduit and truth be told, enterprise buyers, to subject's point, this is something that we do absolutely agree on, on enterprise buyers. We want someone to pick winners and losers. We do, we, we don't want a box of Lego dumped on our, the middle of our table. We want somebody to have sorted that out. So while there may be five or six different service mesh solutions, at least the cncf, I can go there and say, Oh, I'll pick between the three or four that are most popular. And it, it's a place to curate. But I think with that curation comes the other side of it. Of how do we, how, you know, without the big corporate sponsor, how do I get my project pushed up? Right? Elevated. Elevated, Yep. And, and put onto the show floor. You know, another way that projects get noticed is that startups will adopt them, Push them. They may not even be, I don't, my CNCF project may not, my product may not even be based on the CNCF product. But the new stack has a booth, Ford has a booth. Nothing to do with a individual prod up, but promoting open source. What happens when you're not sponsored? >>I gotta ask you guys, what do you disagree on? >>Oh, so what, what do we disagree on? So I'm of the mindset, I can, I can say this, I I believe hybrid infrastructure is the future of it. Bar none. If I built my infrastructure, if I built my application in the cloud 10 years ago and I'm still building net new applications, I have stuff that I built 10 years ago that looks a lot like on-prem, what do I do with it? I can't modernize it cuz I don't have the developers to do it. I need to stick that somewhere. And where I'm going to stick that at is probably a hybrid infrastructure. So colo, I'm not gonna go back to the data center, but I'm, I'm gonna look, pick up something that looks very much like the data center and I'm saying embrace that it's the future. And if you're Boeing and you have, and Boeing is a member, cncf, that's a whole nother topic. If you have as 400 s, hpu X, et cetera, stick that stuff. Colo, build new stuff, but, and, and continue to support OpenStack, et cetera, et cetera. Because that's the future. Hybrid is the future. >>And sub g agree, disagree. >>I okay. Hybrid. Nobody can deny that the hybrid is the reality, not the future. It's a reality right now. It's, it's a necessity right now you can't do without it. Right. And okay, hybrid is very relative term. You can be like 10% here, 90% still hybrid, right? So the data center is shrinking and it will keep shrinking. Right? And >>So if by whole is the data center shrinking? >>This is where >>Quick one quick getting guys for it. How is growing by a clip? Yeah, but there's no data supporting. David Lym just came out for a report I think last year that showed that the data center is holding steady, holding steady, not growing, but not shrinking. >>Who sponsored that study? Wait, hold on. So the, that's a question, right? So more than 1 million data centers have been closed. I have, I can dig that through number through somebody like some organizations we published that maybe they're cloud, you know, people only. So the, when you get these kind of statements like it, it can be very skewed statements, right. But if you have seen the, the scene out there, which you have, I know, but I have also seen a lot of data centers walk the floor of, you know, a hundred thousand servers in a data center. I cannot imagine us consuming the infrastructure the way we were going into the future of co Okay. With, with one caveat actually. I am not big fan of like broad strokes. Like make a blanket statement. Oh no, data center's dead. Or if you are, >>That's how you get those esty headlines now. Yeah, I know. >>I'm all about to >>Put a stake in the ground. >>Actually. The, I think that you get more intelligence from the new end, right? A small little details if you will. If you're golden gold manak or Bank of America, you have so many data centers and you will still have data centers because performance matters to you, right? Your late latency matters for applications. But if you are even a Fortune 500 company on the lower end and or a healthcare vertical, right? That your situation is different. If you are a high, you know, growth startup, your situation is different, right? You will be a hundred percent cloud. So cloud gives you velocity, the, the, the pace of change, the pace of experimentation that actually you are buying innovation through cloud. It's proxy for innovation. And that's how I see it. But if you have, if you're stuck with older applications, I totally understand. >>Yeah. So the >>We need that OnPrem. Yeah, >>Well I think the, the bring your fuel sober, what we agree is that cloud is the place where innovation happens. Okay? At some point innovation becomes legacy debt and you have thus hybrid, you are not going to keep your old applications up to date forever. The, the, the math just doesn't add up. And where I differ in opinion is that not everyone needs innovation to keep moving. They need innovation for a period of time and then they need steady state. So Sergeant, we >>Argue about this. I have a, I >>Love this debate though. I say it's efficiency and stability also plays an important role. I see exactly what you're talking about. No, it's >>Great. I have a counter to that. Let me tell you >>Why. Let's >>Hear it. Because if you look at the storage only, right? Just storage. Just take storage computer network for, for a minute. There three cost reps in, in infrastructure, right? So storage earlier, early on there was one tier of storage. You say pay the same price, then now there are like five storage tiers, right? What I'm trying to say is the market sets the price, the market will tell you where this whole thing will go, but I know their margins are high in cloud, 20 plus percent and margin will shrink as, as we go forward. That means the, the cloud will become cheaper relative to on-prem. It, it, in some cases it's already cheaper. But even if it's a stable workload, even in that case, we will have a lower tier of service. I mean, you, you can't argue with me that the cloud versus your data center, they are on the same tier of services. Like cloud is a better, you know, product than your data center. Hands off. >>I love it. We, we are gonna relish in the debates between the two of you. Mic drops. The energy is great. I love it. Perspective. It's not like any of us can quite see through the crystal ball that we have very informed opinions, which is super exciting. Yeah. Lisa, any last thoughts today? >>Just love, I love the debate as well. That, and that's, that's part of what being in this community is all about. So sharing about, sharing opinions, expressing opinions. That's how it grows. That's how, that's how we innovate. Yeah. Obviously we need the cloud, but that's how we innovate. That's how we grow. Yeah. And we've seen that demonstrated the last couple days and I and your, your takes here on the Cuban on Twitter. Brilliant. >>Thank you. I absolutely love it. I'm gonna close this out with a really important analysis on the swag of the show. Yes. And if you know, yesterday we were looking at what is the weirdest swag or most unique swag We had that bucket hat that took the grand prize. Today we're gonna focus on something that's actually quite cool. A lot of the vendors here have really dedicated their swag to being local to Detroit. Very specific in their sourcing. Sonotype here has COOs. They're beautiful. You can't quite feel this flannel, but it's very legit hand sound here in Michigan. I can't say that I've been to too many conferences, if any, where there was this kind of commitment to localizing and sourcing swag from around the corner. We also see this with the Intel booth. They've got screen printers out here doing custom hoodies on spot. >>Oh fun. They're even like appropriately sized. They had local artists do these designs and if you're like me and you care about what's on your wrist, you're familiar with Shinola. This is one of my favorite swags that's available. There is a contest. Oh going on. Hello here. Yeah, so if you are Atan, make sure that you go and check this out. The we, I talked about this on the show. We've had the founder on the show or the CEO and yeah, I mean Shine is just full of class as since we are in Detroit as well. One of the fun themes is cars. >>Yes. >>And Storm Forge, who are also on the show, is actually giving away an Aston Martin, which is very exciting. Not exactly manufactured in Detroit. However, still very cool on the car front and >>The double oh seven version named the best I >>Know in the sixties. It's love it. It's very cool. Two quick last things. We talk about it a lot on the show. Every company now wants to be a software company. Yep. On that vein, and keeping up with my hat theme, the Home Depot is here because they want everybody to know that they in fact are a technology company, which is very cool. They have over 500,000 employees. You can imagine there's a lot of technology that has to go into keeping Napa. Absolutely. Yep. Wild to think about. And then last, but not at least very quick, rapid fire, best t-shirt contest. If you've ever ran to one of these events, there are a ton of T-shirts out there. I rate them on two things. Wittiest line and softness. If you combine the two, you'll really be our grand champion for the year. I'm just gonna hold these up and set them down for your laughs. Not afraid to commit, which is pretty great. This is another one designed by locals here. Detroit Code City. Oh, love it. This one made me chuckle the most. Kiss my cash. >>Oh, that's >>Good. These are also really nice and soft, which is fantastic. Also high on the softness category is this Op Sarah one. I also like their bird logo. These guys, there's just, you know, just real nice touch. So unfortunately, if you have the fumble, you're not here with us, live in Detroit. At least you're gonna get taste of the swag. I taste of the stories and some smiles hear from those of us on the cube. Thank you both so much for being here with us. Lisa, thanks for another fabulous day. Got it, girl. My name's Savannah Peterson. Thank you for joining us from Detroit. We're the cube and we can't wait to see you tomorrow.

(upbeat techno music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE here live in Detroit for KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2022. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. This is our seventh consecutive KubeCon + CloudNativeCon. Since inception, theCube's been there every year. And of course, theCUBE continues to grow. So does the community as well as our host roster. I'm here with my co-host, Lisa Martin. Lisa, great to see you. And our new theCube host, Savannah Peterson. Savannah, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks, John. >> Welcome. >> Welcome to the team. >> Thanks, team. It's so wonderful to be here. I met you all last KubeCon and to be sitting on this stage in your company is honestly an honor. >> Well, great to have you. Lisa and I have done a lot of shows together and it's great to have more cadence around. You know, more fluid around the content, and also the people. And I would like you to take a minute to tell people your background. You know the community here. What's the roots? You know the Cloud Native world pretty well. >> I know it as well as someone my age can. As we know, the tools and the tech is always changing. So hello, everyone. I'm Savannah Peterson. You can find me on the internet @SavIsSavvy. Would love to hear from you during the show. Big fan of this space and very passionate about DevOps. I've been working in the Silicon Valley and the Silicon Alley for a long time, helping companies scale internationally as a community builder as well as a international public speaker. And honestly, this is just such a fun evolution for my career and I'm grateful to be here with you both. >> We're looking forward to having you on theCUBE. Appreciate it. Lisa? >> Yes. >> KubeCon. Amazing again this year. Just keeps growing bigger and bigger. >> Yes. >> Keynote review, you were in there. >> Yup. >> I had a chance to peek in a little bit, but you were there and got most of the news. What was the action? >> You know, the action was really a big focus around the maintainers, what they're doing, giving them the props and the kudos and the support that they deserve. Not just physically, but mentally as well. That was a really big focus. It was also a big focus on mentoring and really encouraging more people- >> Love that. >> I did, too. I thought that was fantastic to get involved to help others. And then they showed some folks that had great experiences, really kind of growing up within the community. Probably half of the keynote focus this morning was on that. And then looking at some of the other projects that have graduated from CNCF, some of these successful projects, what they're doing, what folks are doing. Cruise, one of the ones that was featured. You've probably seen their driverless cars around San Francisco. So it was great to see that, the successes that they've had and where that's going. >> Yeah. Lisa, we've done how many shows? Hundreds of shows together. When you see a show like this grow and continue to mature, what's your observation? You've seen many shows we've hosted together. What jumps out this year? Is it just that level of maturization? What's your take on this? >> The maturization of the community and the collaboration of the community. I think those two things jumped out at me even more than last year. Last year, obviously a little bit smaller event in North America. It was Los Angeles. This year you got a much stronger sense of the community, the support that they have for each other. There were a lot of standing ovations particularly when the community came out and talked about what they were doing in Ukraine to support fellow community members in Ukraine and also to support other Ukrainians in terms of getting in to tech. Lot of standing ovations. Lot of- >> Savannah: Love that, yeah. >> Real authenticity around the community. >> Yeah, Savannah, we talked on our intro prior to the event about how inclusive this community is. They are really all in on inclusivity. And the Ukraine highlight, this community is together and they're open. They're open to everybody. >> Absolutely. >> And they're also focused on growing the educational knowledge. >> Yeah, I think there's a real celebration of curiosity within this community that we don't find in certain other sectors. And we saw it at dinner last night. I mean, I was struck just like you Lisa walking in today. The energy in that room is palpably different from last year. I saw on Twitter this morning, people are very excited. Many people, their first KubeCon. And I'm sure we're going to be feeding off of that, that kind of energy and that... Just a general enthusiasm and excitement to be here in Detroit all week. It's a treat. >> Yeah, I even saw Stu Miniman earlier, former theCube host. He's at Red Hat. We were talking on the way in and he made an observation I thought was interesting I'll bring up because this show, it's a lot "What is this show? What isn't this show?" And I think this show is about developers. What it isn't is not a business show. It's not about business. It's not about industry kind of posturing or marketing. All the heavy hitters on the dev side are here and you don't see the big execs. I mean, you got the CEOs of startups here but not the CEOs of the big public companies. We see the doers. So, I mean, I think my take is this show's about creating products for builders and creating products that people can consume. And I think that is the Cloud Native lanes that are starting to form. You're either creating something for builders to build stuff with or you're creating stuff that could be consumed. And that seems for applications. So the whole app side and services seem to be huge. >> They also did a great job this morning of showcasing some of the big companies that we all know and love. Spotify. Obviously, I don't think a day goes by where I don't turn on Spotify. And what it's done- >> Me neither. >> What it's done for the community... Same with Intuit, I'm a user of both. Intuit was given an End User Award this morning during the keynote for their contributions, what they're doing. But it was nice to see some just everyday companies, Cloud Native companies that we all know and love, and to understand their contributions to the community and how those contributions are affecting all of us as end users. >> Yeah, and I think those companies like Intuit... Argo's been popular, Arlo now new, seeing those services, and even enterprises are contributing. You know, Lyft is always here, popular with Envoy. The community isn't just vendors and that's the interesting thing. >> I think that's why it works. To me, this event is really about the celebration of developer relations. I mean, every DevRel from every single one of these companies is here. Like you said, in lieu of the executive, that's essentially who we're attracting. And if you look out over the show floor here, I mean, we've probably got, I don't know, three to four extra vendors that we had last year. It totally is a different tone. This community doesn't like to be sold to. This community likes to be collaborative. They like to learn and they like to help. And I think we see that within the ecosystem inside the room today. >> It's not a top down sales pitch. It's really consensus. >> No. >> Do it out in the open transparency. Don't sell me stuff. And I think the other thing I like about this community is that we're starting to see that... And then we've said this in theCube before. We'll say it again. Maybe be more controversial. Digital transformation is about the developer, right? And I think the power is going to shift in every company to the developer because if you take digital transformation to completion, everything happens the way it's happening, the company is the application. It's not IT who serves the organization- >> I love thinking about it like that. That's a great point, John. >> The old phase was IT was a department that served the business. Well, the business is IT now. So that means developer community is going to grow like crazy and they're going to be in the front lines driving all the change. In my opinion, you going to see this developer community grow like crazy and then the business side on industry will match up with that. I think that's what's going to happen. >> So, the developers are becoming the influencers? >> Developers are the power source for all companies. They're in charge. They're going to dictate terms to how businesses will run because that's going to be natural 'cause digital transformation's about the app and the business is the app. So that mean it has to be coded. So I think you're going to see a lot of innovation around app server-like experiences where the the apps are just being developed faster than the infrastructures enabling that completely invisible. And I think you're going to see this kind of architecture-less, I'll put it out there that term architecture-less, environment where you don't need an architecture. It's just you code away. >> Yeah, yeah. We saw GitHub's mentioned in the keynote this morning. And I mean, low code, no code. I think your fingers right on the pulse there. >> Yeah. What did you guys see? Anything else you see? >> I think just the overall... To your point, Savannah, the energy. Definitely higher than last year. When I saw those standing ovations, people really come in together around the sense of community and what they've accomplished especially in the last two plus years of being remote. They did a great job of involving a lot of folks, some of whom are going to be on the program with us this week that did remote parts of the keynote. One of our guests on today from Vitess was talking about the successes and the graduation of their program so that the sense of community, but also not just the sense of it, the actual demonstration of it was also quite palpable this morning, and I think that's something that I'm excited for us to hear about with our guests on the program this week. >> Yeah, and I think the big story coming out so far as the show starts is the developers are in charge. They're going to set the pace for all the ops, data ops, security ops, all operations. And then the co-located events that were held Monday and Tuesday prior to kickoff today. You saw WebAssembly's come out of the woodwork as it got a lot of attention. Two startups got funded heavily on Series A. You're starting to see that project really work well. That's going to be an additional to the container market. So, interesting to see how Docker reacts to that. Red Hat's doing great. ServiceMeshCon was phenomenal. I saw Solo.iOS got massive traction with those guys. So like Service Mesh, WebAssembly, you can start to see the dots connecting. You're starting to see this layer below Kubernetes and then a layer above Kubernetes developing. So I think it's going to be great for applications and great for the infrastructure. I think we'll see how it comes out and all these companies we have on here are all about faster, more integrated, some very, very interesting to see. So far, so good. >> You guys talked about in your highlight session last week or so. Excited to hear about the end users, the customer stories. That's what I'm interested in understanding as well. It's why it resonates with me when I see brands that I recognize. Well, I use it every day. How are they using containers and Kubernetes? How are they actually not just using it to deploy their app, their technologies, that we all expect are going to be up 24/7, but how are they also contributing to the development of it? So I'm really excited to hear those end users. >> We're going to have Lockheed Martin. And we wrote a story on SiliconANGLE, the Red Hat, Lockheed Martin, real innovation on the edge. You're starting to see educate with the edge. It's really the industrial edge coming to be big. It'd be very interesting to see. >> Absolutely, we got Ford Motor Company coming on as well. I always loved stories, Savannah, that are history of companies. Ford's been around since 1903. How is a company that- >> Well, we're in the home of Ford- as well here. >> We are. How they evolved digitally? What are they doing to enable the developers to be those influencers that John says? It's going to be them. >> They're a great example of a company that's always been on the forefront, too. I mean, they had a head of VRs 25 years ago when most people didn't even know what VR was going to stand for. So, I can't wait for that one. You tease the Docker interview coming up very well, John. I'm excited for that one. One last thing I want to bring up that I think is really refreshing and it's reflected right here on this stage is you talked about the inclusion. I think there's a real commitment to diversity here. You can see the diversity stats on CNCF's website. It's right there on KubeCon. At the bottom, there's a link in every email I've gotten highlighting that. We've got two women on this stage all week which is very exciting. And the opening keynote was a woman. So quite frankly, I am happy as a female in this industry to see a bit more representation. And I do appreciate just on the note of being inclusive, it's not just about gender or age, it's also about the way that CNCF thinks about your experience since we're in this kind of pandemic transitional period. They've got little pins. Last year, we had bracelets depending on your level of comfort. Equivocally like a stoplight which is... I just think it's really nice and sensitive and that attention to detail makes people feel comfortable. Which is why we have the community energy that we have. >> Yeah, and being 12 years in the business... With theCUBE, we've been 12 years in the business, seven years with KubeCon and Cloud Native, I really appreciate the Linux Foundation including me as I get older. (Lisa and Savannah laugh) >> Savannah: That's a good point. >> Ageism were, "Hey!" Thank you. >> There was a lot of representation. You talked about females and so often we go to shows and there's very few females. Some companies are excellent at it. But from an optics perspective, to me it stands out. There was great representation across. There was disabled people on stage, people of color, women, men of all ages. It was very well-orchestrated. >> On the demographic- >> And sincere. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And the demographics, too. On the age side, it's lower too. You're starting to see younger... I mean, high school, college representation. I saw a lot of college students last night. I saw on the agenda sessions targeting universities. I mean, I'm telling you this is reaching down. Open source now is so great. It's growing so fast. It's continuing to thunder away. And with success, it's just getting better and better. In fact, we were talking last night about at some point we might not have to write code. Just glue it together. And that's why I think the supply chain and security thing is an issue. But this is why it's so great. Anyone can code and I think there's a lot of learning to have. So, I think we'll continue to do our job to extract the signal from the noise. So, thanks for the kickoff. Good commentary. Thank you. All right. >> Of course. >> Let's get started. Day one of three days of live coverage here at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon. I'm John Furrier with Lisa Martin, and Savannah Peterson. Be back with more coverage starting right now. (gentle upbeat music)

>> From every ISV to solve the problems. You want there to be tools in place that you can use, either open source tools or whatever it is that help you build it. And slowly over time, that building will become easier and easier. So my question to you was, where do you see you playing? Do you see yourself playing to ISVs as a set of tools, which will make their life a lot easier and provide that work? >> Absolutely. >> If they don't have, so they don't have to do it. Or you're providing this for the end users? Or both? >> So it's a progression. If you go to the ISVs first, you're doomed to starved before you have time for that other option. >> Yeah. >> Right? So it's a question of phase, the phasing of it. And also if you go directly to end users, you can demonstrate the power of it and get the attention of the ISVs. I believe that the ISVs, especially those with the biggest footprints and the most, you know, coveted estates, they have already made massive investments at trying to solve decentralization of their software stack. And I believe that they have used it as a hook to try to move to a software as a service model and rope people into leasing their infrastructure. So if you look at the clouds that have been propped up by Autodesk or by Adobe, or you name the company, they are building proprietary makeshift solutions for decentralizing or hybrid clouding. Or maybe they're not even doing that at all and all they're is saying hey, if you want to get location agnosticness, then what you should just, is just move into our cloud. >> Right. >> And then they try to solve on the background how to decentralize it between different regions so they can have decent offerings in each region. But those who are more advanced have already made larger investments and will be more averse to, you know, throwing that stuff away, all of their makeshift machinery away, and using a platform that gives them high performance parallel, low level file system access, while at the same time having metadata-driven, you know, policy-based, intent-based orchestration to manage the diffusion of data across a decentralized infrastructure. They are not going to be as open because they've made such an investment and they're going to look at how do they monetize it. So what we have found with like the movie studios who are using us already, many of the app they're using, many of those software offerings, the ISVs have their own cloud that offers that software for the cloud. But what we got when I asked about this, 'cause I was dealt specifically into this question because I'm very interested to know how we're going to make that leap from end user upstream into the ISVs where I believe we need to, and they said, look, we cannot use these software ISV-specific SAS clouds for two reasons. Number one is we lose control of the data. We're giving it to them. That's security and other issues. And here you're talking about we're doing work for Disney, we're doing work for Netflix, and they're not going to let us put our data on those software clouds, on those SAS clouds. Secondly, in any reasonable pipeline, the data is shared by many different applications. We need to be agnostic as to the application. 'Cause the inputs to one application, you know, the output for one application provides the input to the next, and it's not necessarily from the same vendor. So they need to have a data platform that lets them, you know, go from one software stack, and you know, to run it on another. Because they might do the rendering with this and yet, they do the editing with that, and you know, et cetera, et cetera. So I think the further you go up the stack in the structured data and dedicated applications for specific functions in specific verticals, the further up the stack you go, the harder it is to justify a SAS offering where you're basically telling the end users you need to park all your data with us and then you can run your application in our cloud and get this. That ultimately is a dead end path versus having the data be open and available to many applications across this supercloud layer. >> Okay, so-- >> Is that making any sense? >> Yes, so if I could just ask a clarifying question. So, if I had to take Snowflake as an example, I think they're doing exactly what you're saying is a dead end, put everything into our proprietary system and then we'll figure out how to distribute it. >> Yeah. >> And and I think if you're familiar with Zhamak Dehghaniis' data mesh concept. Are you? >> A little bit, yeah. >> But in her model, Snowflake, a Snowflake warehouse is just a node on the mesh and that mesh is-- >> That's right. >> Ultimately the supercloud and you're an enabler of that is what I'm hearing. >> That's right. What they're doing up at the structured level and what they're talking about at the structured level we're doing at the underlying, unstructured level, which by the way has implications for how you implement those distributed database things. In other words, implementing a Snowflake on top of Hammerspace would have made building stuff like in the first place easier. It would allow you to easily shift and run the database engine anywhere. You still have to solve how to shard and distribute at the transaction layer above, so I'm not saying we're a substitute for what you need to do at the app layer. By the way, there is another example of that and that's Microsoft Office, right? It's one thing to share that, to have a file share where you can share all the docs. It's something else to have Word and PowerPoint, Excel know how to allow people to be simultaneously editing the same doc. That's always going to happen in the app layer. But not all applications need that level of, you know, in-app decentralization. You know, many of them, many workflows are pipelined, especially the ones that are very data intensive where you're doing drug discovery or you're doing rendering, or you're doing machine learning training. These things are human in the loop with large stages of processing across tens of thousands of cores. And I think that kind of data processing pipeline is what we're focusing on first. Not so much the Microsoft Office or the Snowflake, you know, parking a relational database because that takes a lot of application layer stuff and that's what they're good at. >> Right. >> But I think... >> Go ahead, sorry. >> Later entrance in these markets will find Hammerspace as a way to accelerate their work so they can focus more narrowly on just the stuff that's app-specific, higher level sharing in the app. >> Yes, Snowflake founders-- >> I think it might be worth mentioning also, just keep this confidential guys, but one of our customers is Blue Origin. And one of the things that we have found is kind of the point of what you're talking about with our customers. They're needing to build this and since it's not commercially available or they don't know where to look for it to be commercially available, they're all building themselves. So this layer is needed. And Blue is just one of the examples of quite a few we're now talking to. And like manufacturing, HPC, research where they're out trying to solve this problem with their own scripting tools and things like that. And I just, I don't know if there's anything you want to add, David, but you know, but there's definitely a demand here and customers are trying to figure out how to solve it beyond what Hammerspace is doing. Like the need is so great that they're just putting developers on trying to do it themselves. >> Well, and you know, Snowflake founders, they didn't have a Hammerspace to lean on. But, one of the things that's interesting about supercloud is we feel as though industry clouds will emerge, that as part of company's digital transformations, they will, you know, every company's a software company, they'll begin to build their own clouds and they will be able to use a Hammerspace to do that. >> A super pass layer. >> Yes. It's really, I don't know if David's speaking, I don't want to speak over him, but we can't hear you. May be going through a bad... >> Well, a regional, regional talks that make that possible. And so they're doing these render farms and editing farms, and it's a cloud-specific to the types of workflows in the median entertainment world. Or clouds specifically to workflows in the chip design world or in the drug and bio and life sciences exploration world. There are large organizations that are kind of a blend of end users, like the Broad, which has their own kind of cloud where they're asking collaborators to come in and work with them. So it starts to even blur who's an end user versus an ISV. >> Yes. >> Right? When you start talking about the massive data is the main gravity is to having lots of people participate. >> Yep, and that's where the value is. And that's where the value is. And this is a megatrend that we see. And so it's really important for us to get to the point of what is and what is not a supercloud and, you know, that's where we're trying to evolve. >> Let's talk about this for a second 'cause I want to, I want to challenge you on something and it's something that I got challenged on and it has led me to thinking differently than I did at first, which Molly can attest to. Okay? So, we have been looking for a way to talk about the concept of cloud of utility computing, run anything anywhere that isn't addressed in today's realization of cloud. 'Cause today's cloud is not run anything anywhere, it's quite the opposite. You park your data in AWS and that's where you run stuff. And you pretty much have to. Same with with Azure. They're using data gravity to keep you captive there, just like the old infrastructure guys did. But now it's even worse because it's coupled back with the software to some degree, as well. And you have to use their storage, networking, and compute. It's not, I mean it fell back to the mainframe era. Anyhow, so I love the concept of supercloud. By the way, I was going to suggest that a better term might be hyper cloud since hyper speaks to the multidimensionality of it and the ability to be in a, you know, be in a different dimension, a different plane of existence kind of thing like hyperspace. But super and hyper are somewhat synonyms. I mean, you have hyper cars and you have super cars and blah, blah, blah. I happen to like hyper maybe also because it ties into the whole Hammerspace notion of a hyper-dimensional, you know, reality, having your data centers connected by a wormhole that is Hammerspace. But regardless, what I got challenged on is calling it something different at all versus simply saying, this is what cloud has always meant to be. This is the true cloud, this is real cloud, this is cloud. And I think back to what happened, you'll remember, at Fusion IO we talked about IO memory and we did that because people had a conceptualization of what an SSD was. And an SSD back then was low capacity, low endurance, made to go military, aerospace where things needed to be rugged but was completely useless in the data center. And we needed people to imagine this thing as being able to displace entire SAND, with the kind of capacity density, performance density, endurance. And so we talked IO memory, we could have said enterprise SSD, and that's what the industry now refers to for that concept. What will people be saying five and 10 years from now? Will they simply say, well this is cloud as it was always meant to be where you are truly able to run anything anywhere and have not only the same APIs, but you're same data available with high performance access, all forms of access, block file and object everywhere. So yeah. And I wonder, and this is just me throwing it out there, I wonder if, well, there's trade offs, right? Giving it a new moniker, supercloud, versus simply talking about how cloud is always intended to be and what it was meant to be, you know, the real cloud or true cloud, there are trade-offs. By putting a name on it and branding it, that lets people talk about it and understand they're talking about something different. But it also is that an affront to people who thought that that's what they already had. >> What's different, what's new? Yes, and so we've given a lot of thought to this. >> Right, it's like you. >> And it's because we've been asked that why does the industry need a new term, and we've tried to address some of that. But some of the inside baseball that we haven't shared is, you remember the Web 2.0, back then? >> Yep. >> Web 2.0 was the same thing. And I remember Tim Burners Lee saying, "Why do we need Web 2.0? "This is what the Web was always supposed to be." But the truth is-- >> I know, that was another perfect-- >> But the truth is it wasn't, number one. Number two, everybody hated the Web 2.0 term. John Furrier was actually in the middle of it all. And then it created this groundswell. So one of the things we wrote about is that supercloud is an evocative term that catalyzes debate and conversation, which is what we like, of course. And maybe that's self-serving. But yeah, HyperCloud, Metacloud, super, meaning, it's funny because super came from Latin supra, above, it was never the superlative. But the superlative was a convenient byproduct that caused a lot of friction and flack, which again, in the media business is like a perfect storm brewing. >> The bad thing to have to, and I think you do need to shake people out of their, the complacency of the limitations that they're used to. And I'll tell you what, the fact that you even have the terms hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, private cloud, edge computing, those are all just referring to the different boundaries that isolate the silo that is the current limited cloud. >> Right. >> So if I heard correctly, what just, in terms of us defining what is and what isn't in supercloud, you would say traditional applications which have to run in a certain place, in a certain cloud can't run anywhere else, would be the stuff that you would not put in as being addressed by supercloud. And over time, you would want to be able to run the data where you want to and in any of those concepts. >> Or even modern apps, right? Or even modern apps that are siloed in SAS within an individual cloud, right? >> So yeah, I guess it's twofold. Number one, if you're going at the high application layers, there's lots of ways that you can give the appearance of anything running anywhere. The ISV, the SAS vendor can engineer stuff to have the ability to serve with low enough latency to different geographies, right? So if you go too high up the stack, it kind of loses its meaning because there's lots of different ways to make due and give the appearance of omni-presence of the service. Okay? As you come down more towards the platform layer, it gets harder and harder to mask the fact that supercloud is something entirely different than just a good regionally-distributed SAS service. So I don't think you, I don't think you can distinguish supercloud if you go too high up the stack because it's just SAS, it's just a good SAS service where the SAS vendor has done the hard work to give you low latency access from different geographic regions. >> Yeah, so this is one of the hardest things, David. >> Common among them. >> Yeah, this is really an important point. This is one of the things I've had the most trouble with is why is this not just SAS? >> So you dilute your message when you go up to the SAS layer. If you were to focus most of this around the super pass layer, the how can you host applications and run them anywhere and not host this, not run a service, not have a service available everywhere. So how can you take any application, even applications that are written, you know, in a traditional legacy data center fashion and be able to run them anywhere and have them have their binaries and their datasets and the runtime environment and the infrastructure to start them and stop them? You know, the jobs, the, what the Kubernetes, the job scheduler? What we're really talking about here, what I think we're really talking about here is building the operating system for a decentralized cloud. What is the operating system, the operating environment for a decentralized cloud? Where you can, and that the main two functions of an operating system or an operating environment are the process scheduler, the thing that's scheduling what is running where and when and so forth, and the file system, right? The thing that's supplying a common view and access to data. So when we talk about this, I think that the strongest argument for supercloud is made when you go down to the platform layer and talk of it, talk about it as an operating environment on which you can run all forms of applications. >> Would you exclude--? >> Not a specific application that's been engineered as a SAS. (audio distortion) >> He'll come back. >> Are you there? >> Yeah, yeah, you just cut out for a minute. >> I lost your last statement when you broke up. >> We heard you, you said that not the specific application. So would you exclude Snowflake from supercloud? >> Frankly, I would. I would. Because, well, and this is kind of hard to do because Snowflake doesn't like to, Frank doesn't like to talk about Snowflake as a SAS service. It has a negative connotation. >> But it is. >> I know, we all know it is. We all know it is and because it is, yes, I would exclude them. >> I think I actually have him on camera. >> There's nothing in common. >> I think I have him on camera or maybe Benoit as saying, "Well, we are a SAS." I think it's Slootman. I think I said to Slootman, "I know you don't like to say you're a SAS." And I think he said, "Well, we are a SAS." >> Because again, if you go to the top of the application stack, there's any number of ways you can give it location agnostic function or you know, regional, local stuff. It's like let's solve the location problem by having me be your one location. How can it be decentralized if you're centralizing on (audio distortion)? >> Well, it's more decentralized than if it's all in one cloud. So let me actually, so the spectrum. So again, in the spirit of what is and what isn't, I think it's safe to say Hammerspace is supercloud. I think there's no debate there, right? Certainly among this crowd. And I think we can all agree that Dell, Dell Storage is not supercloud. Where it gets fuzzy is this Snowflake example or even, how about a, how about a Cohesity that instantiates its stack in different cloud regions in different clouds, and synchronizes, however magic sauce it does that. Is that a supercloud? I mean, so I'm cautious about having too strict of a definition 'cause then only-- >> Fair enough, fair enough. >> But I could use your help and thoughts on that. >> So I think we're talking about two different spectrums here. One is the spectrum of platform to application-specific. As you go up the application stack and it becomes this specific thing. Or you go up to the more and more structured where it's serving a specific application function where it's more of a SAS thing. I think it's harder to call a SAS service a supercloud. And I would argue that the reason there, and what you're lacking in the definition is to talk about it as general purpose. Okay? Now, that said, a data warehouse is general purpose at the structured data level. So you could make the argument for why Snowflake is a supercloud by saying that it is a general purpose platform for doing lots of different things. It's just one at a higher level up at the structured data level. So one spectrum is the high level going from platform to, you know, unstructured data to structured data to very application-specific, right? Like a specific, you know, CAD/CAM mechanical design cloud, like an Autodesk would want to give you their cloud for running, you know, and sharing CAD/CAM designs, doing your CAD/CAM anywhere stuff. Well, the other spectrum is how well does the purported supercloud technology actually live up to allowing you to run anything anywhere with not just the same APIs but with the local presence of data with the exact same runtime environment everywhere, and to be able to correctly manage how to get that runtime environment anywhere. So a Cohesity has some means of running things in different places and some means of coordinating what's where and of serving diff, you know, things in different places. I would argue that it is a very poor approximation of what Hammerspace does in providing the exact same file system with local high performance access everywhere with metadata ability to control where the data is actually instantiated so that you don't have to wait for it to get orchestrated. But even then when you do have to wait for it, it happens automatically and so it's still only a matter of, well, how quick is it? And on the other end of the spectrum is you could look at NetApp with Flexcache and say, "Is that supercloud?" And I would argue, well kind of because it allows you to run things in different places because it's a cache. But you know, it really isn't because it presumes some central silo from which you're cacheing stuff. So, you know, is it or isn't it? Well, it's on a spectrum of exactly how fully is it decoupling a runtime environment from specific locality? And I think a cache doesn't, it stretches a specific silo and makes it have some semblance of similar access in other places. But there's still a very big difference to the central silo, right? You can't turn off that central silo, for example. >> So it comes down to how specific you make the definition. And this is where it gets kind of really interesting. It's like cloud. Does IBM have a cloud? >> Exactly. >> I would say yes. Does it have the kind of quality that you would expect from a hyper-scale cloud? No. Or see if you could say the same thing about-- >> But that's a problem with choosing a name. That's the problem with choosing a name supercloud versus talking about the concept of cloud and how true up you are to that concept. >> For sure. >> Right? Because without getting a name, you don't have to draw, yeah. >> I'd like to explore one particular or bring them together. You made a very interesting observation that from a enterprise point of view, they want to safeguard their store, their data, and they want to make sure that they can have that data running in their own workflows, as well as, as other service providers providing services to them for that data. So, and in in particular, if you go back to, you go back to Snowflake. If Snowflake could provide the ability for you to have your data where you wanted, you were in charge of that, would that make Snowflake a supercloud? >> I'll tell you, in my mind, they would be closer to my conceptualization of supercloud if you can instantiate Snowflake as software on your own infrastructure, and pump your own data to Snowflake that's instantiated on your own infrastructure. The fact that it has to be on their infrastructure or that it's on their, that it's on their account in the cloud, that you're giving them the data and they're, that fundamentally goes against it to me. If they, you know, they would be a pure, a pure plate if they were a software defined thing where you could instantiate Snowflake machinery on the infrastructure of your choice and then put your data into that machinery and get all the benefits of Snowflake. >> So did you see--? >> In other words, if they were not a SAS service, but offered all of the similar benefits of being, you know, if it were a service that you could run on your own infrastructure. >> So did you see what they announced, that--? >> I hope that's making sense. >> It does, did you see what they announced at Dell? They basically announced the ability to take non-native Snowflake data, read it in from an object store on-prem, like a Dell object store. They do the same thing with Pure, read it in, running it in the cloud, and then push it back out. And I was saying to Dell, look, that's fine. Okay, that's interesting. You're taking a materialized view or an extended table, whatever you're doing, wouldn't it be more interesting if you could actually run the query locally with your compute? That would be an extension that would actually get my attention and extend that. >> That is what I'm talking about. That's what I'm talking about. And that's why I'm saying I think Hammerspace is more progressive on that front because with our technology, anybody who can instantiate a service, can make a service. And so I, so MSPs can use Hammerspace as a way to build a super pass layer and host their clients on their infrastructure in a cloud-like fashion. And their clients can have their own private data centers and the MSP or the public clouds, and Hammerspace can be instantiated, get this, by different parties in these different pieces of infrastructure and yet linked together to make a common file system across all of it. >> But this is data mesh. If I were HPE and Dell it's exactly what I'd be doing. I'd be working with Hammerspace to create my own data. I'd work with Databricks, Snowflake, and any other-- >> Data mesh is a good way to put it. Data mesh is a good way to put it. And this is at the lowest level of, you know, the underlying file system that's mountable by the operating system, consumed as a real file system. You can't get lower level than that. That's why this is the foundation for all of the other apps and structured data systems because you need to have a data mesh that can at least mesh the binary blob. >> Okay. >> That hold the binaries and that hold the datasets that those applications are running. >> So David, in the third week of January, we're doing supercloud 2 and I'm trying to convince John Furrier to make it a data slash data mesh edition. I'm slowly getting him to the knothole. I would very much, I mean you're in the Bay Area, I'd very much like you to be one of the headlines. As Zhamak Dehghaniis going to speak, she's the creator of Data Mesh, >> Sure. >> I'd love to have you come into our studio as well, for the live session. If you can't make it, we can pre-record. But you're right there, so I'll get you the dates. >> We'd love to, yeah. No, you can count on it. No, definitely. And you know, we don't typically talk about what we do as Data Mesh. We've been, you know, using global data environment. But, you know, under the covers, that's what the thing is. And so yeah, I think we can frame the discussion like that to line up with other, you know, with the other discussions. >> Yeah, and Data Mesh, of course, is one of those evocative names, but she has come up with some very well defined principles around decentralized data, data as products, self-serve infrastructure, automated governance, and and so forth, which I think your vision plugs right into. And she's brilliant. You'll love meeting her. >> Well, you know, and I think.. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead, Peter. >> Just like to work one other interface which I think is important. How do you see yourself and the open source? You talked about having an operating system. Obviously, Linux is the operating system at one level. How are you imagining that you would interface with cost community as part of this development? >> Well, it's funny you ask 'cause my CTO is the kernel maintainer of the storage networking stack. So how the Linux operating system perceives and consumes networked data at the file system level, the network file system stack is his purview. He owns that, he wrote most of it over the last decade that he's been the maintainer, but he's the gatekeeper of what goes in. And we have leveraged his abilities to enhance Linux to be able to use this decentralized data, in particular with decoupling the control plane driven by metadata from the data access path and the many storage systems on which the data gets accessed. So this factoring, this splitting of control plane from data path, metadata from data, was absolutely necessary to create a data mesh like we're talking about. And to be able to build this supercloud concept. And the highways on which the data runs and the client which knows how to talk to it is all open source. And we have, we've driven the NFS 4.2 spec. The newest NFS spec came from my team. And it was specifically the enhancements needed to be able to build a spanning file system, a data mesh at a file system level. Now that said, our file system itself and our server, our file server, our data orchestration, our data management stuff, that's all closed source, proprietary Hammerspace tech. But the highways on which the mesh connects are actually all open source and the client that knows how to consume it. So we would, honestly, I would welcome competitors using those same highways. They would be at a major disadvantage because we kind of built them, but it would still be very validating and I think only increase the potential adoption rate by more than whatever they might take of the market. So it'd actually be good to split the market with somebody else to come in and share those now super highways for how to mesh data at the file system level, you know, in here. So yeah, hopefully that answered your question. Does that answer the question about how we embrace the open source? >> Right, and there was one other, just that my last one is how do you enable something to run in every environment? And if we take the edge, for example, as being, as an environment which is much very, very compute heavy, but having a lot less capability, how do you do a hold? >> Perfect question. Perfect question. What we do today is a software appliance. We are using a Linux RHEL 8, RHEL 8 equivalent or a CentOS 8, or it's, you know, they're all roughly equivalent. But we have bundled and a software appliance which can be instantiated on bare metal hardware on any type of VM system from VMware to all of the different hypervisors in the Linux world, to even Nutanix and such. So it can run in any virtualized environment and it can run on any cloud instance, server instance in the cloud. And we have it packaged and deployable from the marketplaces within the different clouds. So you can literally spin it up at the click of an API in the cloud on instances in the cloud. So with all of these together, you can basically instantiate a Hammerspace set of machinery that can offer up this file system mesh. like we've been using the terminology we've been using now, anywhere. So it's like being able to take and spin up Snowflake and then just be able to install and run some VMs anywhere you want and boom, now you have a Snowflake service. And by the way, it is so complete that some of our customers, I would argue many aren't even using public clouds at all, they're using this just to run their own data centers in a cloud-like fashion, you know, where they have a data service that can span it all. >> Yeah and to Molly's first point, we would consider that, you know, cloud. Let me put you on the spot. If you had to describe conceptually without a chalkboard what an architectural diagram would look like for supercloud, what would you say? >> I would say it's to have the same runtime environment within every data center and defining that runtime environment as what it takes to schedule the execution of applications, so job scheduling, runtime stuff, and here we're talking Kubernetes, Slurm, other things that do job scheduling. We're talking about having a common way to, you know, instantiate compute resources. So a global compute environment, having a common compute environment where you can instantiate things that need computing. Okay? So that's the first part. And then the second is the data platform where you can have file block and object volumes, and have them available with the same APIs in each of these distributed data centers and have the exact same data omnipresent with the ability to control where the data is from one moment to the next, local, where all the data is instantiate. So my definition would be a common runtime environment that's bifurcate-- >> Oh. (attendees chuckling) We just lost them at the money slide. >> That's part of the magic makes people listen. We keep someone on pin and needles waiting. (attendees chuckling) >> That's good. >> Are you back, David? >> I'm on the edge of my seat. Common runtime environment. It was like... >> And just wait, there's more. >> But see, I'm maybe hyper-focused on the lower level of what it takes to host and run applications. And that's the stuff to schedule what resources they need to run and to get them going and to get them connected through to their persistence, you know, and their data. And to have that data available in all forms and have it be the same data everywhere. On top of that, you could then instantiate applications of different types, including relational databases, and data warehouses and such. And then you could say, now I've got, you know, now I've got these more application-level or structured data-level things. I tend to focus less on that structured data level and the application level and am more focused on what it takes to host any of them generically on that super pass layer. And I'll admit, I'm maybe hyper-focused on the pass layer and I think it's valid to include, you know, higher levels up the stack like the structured data level. But as soon as you go all the way up to like, you know, a very specific SAS service, I don't know that you would call that supercloud. >> Well, and that's the question, is there value? And Marianna Tessel from Intuit said, you know, we looked at it, we did it, and it just, it was actually negative value for us because connecting to all these separate clouds was a real pain in the neck. Didn't bring us any additional-- >> Well that's 'cause they don't have this pass layer underneath it so they can't even shop around, which actually makes it hard to stand up your own SAS service. And ultimately they end up having to build their own infrastructure. Like, you know, I think there's been examples like Netflix moving away from the cloud to their own infrastructure. Basically, if you're going to rent it for more than a few months, it makes sense to build it yourself, if it's at any kind of scale. >> Yeah, for certain components of that cloud. But if the Goldman Sachs came to you, David, and said, "Hey, we want to collaborate and we want to build "out a cloud and essentially build our SAS system "and we want to do that with Hammerspace, "and we want to tap the physical infrastructure "of not only our data centers but all the clouds," then that essentially would be a SAS, would it not? And wouldn't that be a Super SAS or a supercloud? >> Well, you know, what they may be using to build their service is a supercloud, but their service at the end of the day is just a SAS service with global reach. Right? >> Yeah. >> You know, look at, oh shoot. What's the name of the company that does? It has a cloud for doing bookkeeping and accounting. I forget their name, net something. NetSuite. >> NetSuite. NetSuite, yeah, Oracle. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> Oracle acquired them, right? Is NetSuite a supercloud or is it just a SAS service? You know? I think under the covers you might ask are they using supercloud under the covers so that they can run their SAS service anywhere and be able to shop the venue, get elasticity, get all the benefits of cloud in the, to the benefit of their service that they're offering? But you know, folks who consume the service, they don't care because to them they're just connecting to some endpoint somewhere and they don't have to care. So the further up the stack you go, the more location-agnostic it is inherently anyway. >> And I think it's, paths is really the critical layer. We thought about IAS Plus and we thought about SAS Minus, you know, Heroku and hence, that's why we kind of got caught up and included it. But SAS, I admit, is the hardest one to crack. And so maybe we exclude that as a deployment model. >> That's right, and maybe coming down a level to saying but you can have a structured data supercloud, so you could still include, say, Snowflake. Because what Snowflake is doing is more general purpose. So it's about how general purpose it is. Is it hosting lots of other applications or is it the end application? Right? >> Yeah. >> So I would argue general purpose nature forces you to go further towards platform down-stack. And you really need that general purpose or else there is no real distinguishing. So if you want defensible turf to say supercloud is something different, I think it's important to not try to wrap your arms around SAS in the general sense. >> Yeah, and we've kind of not really gone, leaned hard into SAS, we've just included it as a deployment model, which, given the constraints that you just described for structured data would apply if it's general purpose. So David, super helpful. >> Had it sign. Define the SAS as including the hybrid model hold SAS. >> Yep. >> Okay, so with your permission, I'm going to add you to the list of contributors to the definition. I'm going to add-- >> Absolutely. >> I'm going to add this in. I'll share with Molly. >> Absolutely. >> We'll get on the calendar for the date. >> If Molly can share some specific language that we've been putting in that kind of goes to stuff we've been talking about, so. >> Oh, great. >> I think we can, we can share some written kind of concrete recommendations around this stuff, around the general purpose, nature, the common data thing and yeah. >> Okay. >> Really look forward to it and would be glad to be part of this thing. You said it's in February? >> It's in January, I'll let Molly know. >> Oh, January. >> What the date is. >> Excellent. >> Yeah, third week of January. Third week of January on a Tuesday, whatever that is. So yeah, we would welcome you in. But like I said, if it doesn't work for your schedule, we can prerecord something. But it would be awesome to have you in studio. >> I'm sure with this much notice we'll be able to get something. Let's make sure we have the dates communicated to Molly and she'll get my admin to set it up outside so that we have it. >> I'll get those today to you, Molly. Thank you. >> By the way, I am so, so pleased with being able to work with you guys on this. I think the industry needs it very bad. They need something to break them out of the box of their own mental constraints of what the cloud is versus what it's supposed to be. And obviously, the more we get people to question their reality and what is real, what are we really capable of today that then the more business that we're going to get. So we're excited to lend the hand behind this notion of supercloud and a super pass layer in whatever way we can. >> Awesome. >> Can I ask you whether your platforms include ARM as well as X86? >> So we have not done an ARM port yet. It has been entertained and won't be much of a stretch. >> Yeah, it's just a matter of time. >> Actually, entertained doing it on behalf of NVIDIA, but it will absolutely happen because ARM in the data center I think is a foregone conclusion. Well, it's already there in some cases, but not quite at volume. So definitely will be the case. And I'll tell you where this gets really interesting, discussion for another time, is back to my old friend, the SSD, and having SSDs that have enough brains on them to be part of that fabric. Directly. >> Interesting. Interesting. >> Very interesting. >> Directly attached to ethernet and able to create a data mesh global file system, that's going to be really fascinating. Got to run now. >> All right, hey, thanks you guys. Thanks David, thanks Molly. Great to catch up. Bye-bye. >> Bye >> Talk to you soon.

>>Keon Cloud Native Con kicks off in Detroit on October 24th, and we're pleased to have Stewart Miniman, who's the director of Market Insights, hi, at, for hybrid platforms at Red Hat back in the studio to help us understand the key trends to look for at the events. Do welcome back, like old, old, old >>Home. Thank you, David. It's great to, great to see you and always love doing these previews, even though Dave, come on. How many years have I told you Cloud native con, It's a hoodie crowd. They're gonna totally call you out for where in a tie and things like that. I, I know you want to be an ESPN sportscaster, but you know, I I, I, I still don't think even after, you know, this show's been around for so many years that there's gonna be too many ties into Troy. I >>Know I left the hoodie in my off, I'm sorry folks, but hey, we'll just have to go for it. Okay. Containers generally, and Kubernetes specifically continue to show very strong spending momentum in the ETR survey data. So let's bring up this slide that shows the ETR sectors, all the sectors in the tax taxonomy with net score or spending velocity in the vertical axis and pervasiveness on the horizontal axis. Now, that red dotted line that you see, that marks the elevated 40% mark, anything above that is considered highly elevated in terms of momentum. Now, for years, the big four areas of momentum that shine above all the rest have been cloud containers, rpa, and ML slash ai for the first time in 10 quarters, ML and AI and RPA have dropped below the 40% line, leaving only cloud and containers in rarefied air. Now, Stu, I'm sure this data doesn't surprise you, but what do you make of this? >>Yeah, well, well, Dave, I, I did an interview with at Deepak who owns all the container and open source activity at Amazon earlier this year, and his comment was, the default deployment mechanism in Amazon is containers. So when I look at your data and I see containers and cloud going in sync, yeah, that, that's, that's how we see things. We're helping lots of customers in their overall adoption. And this cloud native ecosystem is still, you know, we're still in that Cambridge explosion of new projects, new opportunities, AI's a great workload for these type type of technologies. So it's really becoming pervasive in the marketplace. >>And, and I feel like the cloud and containers go hand in hand, so it's not surprising to see those two above >>The 40%. You know, there, there's nothing to say that, Look, can I run my containers in my data center and not do the public cloud? Sure. But in the public cloud, the default is the container. And one of the hot discussions we've been having in this ecosystem for a number of years is edge computing. And of course, you know, I want something that that's small and lightweight and can do things really fast. A lot of times it's an AI workload out there, and containers is a great fit at the edge too. So wherever it goes, containers is a good fit, which has been keeping my group at Red Hat pretty busy. >>So let's talk about some of those high level stats that we put together and preview for the event. So it's really around the adoption of open source software and Kubernetes. Here's, you know, a few fun facts. So according to the state of enterprise open source report, which was published by Red Hat, although it was based on a blind survey, nobody knew that that Red Hat was, you know, initiating it. 80% of IT execs expect to increase their use of enterprise open source software. Now, the CNCF community has currently more than 120,000 developers. That's insane when you think about that developer resource. 73% of organizations in the most recent CNCF annual survey are using Kubernetes. Now, despite the momentum, according to that same Red Hat survey, adoption barriers remain for some organizations. Stu, I'd love you to talk about this specifically around skill sets, and then we've highlighted some of the other trends that we expect to see at the event around Stu. I'd love to, again, your, get your thoughts on the preview. You've done a number of these events, automation, security, governance, governance at scale, edge deployments, which you just mentioned among others. Now Kubernetes is eight years old, and I always hear people talking about there's something coming beyond Kubernetes, but it looks like we're just getting started. Yeah, >>Dave, It, it is still relatively early days. The CMC F survey, I think said, you know, 96% of companies when they, when CMC F surveyed them last year, were either deploying Kubernetes or had plans to deploy it. But when I talked to enterprises, nobody has said like, Hey, we've got every group on board and all of our applications are on. It is a multi-year journey for most companies and plenty of them. If you, you look at the general adoption of technology, we're still working through kind of that early majority. We, you know, passed the, the chasm a couple of years ago. But to a point, you and I we're talking about this ecosystem, there are plenty of people in this ecosystem that could care less about containers and Kubernetes. Lots of conversations at this show won't even talk about Kubernetes. You've got, you know, big security group that's in there. >>You've got, you know, certain workloads like we talked about, you know, AI and ml and that are in there. And automation absolutely is playing a, a good role in what's going on here. So in some ways, Kubernetes kind of takes a, a backseat because it is table stakes at this point. So lots of people involved in it, lots of activities still going on. I mean, we're still at a cadence of three times a year now. We slowed it down from four times a year as an industry, but there's, there's still lots of innovation happening, lots of adoption, and oh my gosh, Dave, I mean, there's just no shortage of new projects and new people getting involved. And what's phenomenal about it is there's, you know, end user practitioners that aren't just contributing. But many of the projects were spawned out of work by the likes of Intuit and Spotify and, and many others that created some of the projects that sit alongside or above the, the, you know, the container orchestration itself. >>So before we talked about some of that, it's, it's kind of interesting. It's like Kubernetes is the big dog, right? And it's, it's kind of maturing after, you know, eight years, but it's still important. I wanna share another data point that underscores the traction that containers generally are getting in Kubernetes specifically have, So this is data from the latest ETR survey and shows the spending breakdown for Kubernetes in the ETR data set for it's cut for respondents with 50 or more citations in, in by the IT practitioners that lime green is new adoptions, the forest green is spending 6% or more relative to last year. The gray is flat spending year on year, and those little pink bars, that's 6% or down spending, and the bright red is retirements. So they're leaving the platform. And the blue dots are net score, which is derived by subtracting the reds from the greens. And the yellow dots are pervasiveness in the survey relative to the sector. So the big takeaway here is that there is virtually no red, essentially zero churn across all sectors, large companies, public companies, private firms, telcos, finance, insurance, et cetera. So again, sometimes I hear this things beyond Kubernetes, you've mentioned several, but it feels like Kubernetes is still a driving force, but a lot of other projects around Kubernetes, which we're gonna hear about at the show. >>Yeah. So, so, so Dave, right? First of all, there was for a number of years, like, oh wait, you know, don't waste your time on, on containers because serverless is gonna rule the world. Well, serverless is now a little bit of a broader term. Can I do a serverless viewpoint for my developers that they don't need to think about the infrastructure but still have containers underneath it? Absolutely. So our friends at Amazon have a solution called Fargate, their proprietary offering to kind of hide that piece of it. And in the open source world, there's a project called Can Native, I think it's the second or third can Native Con's gonna happen at the cncf. And even if you use this, I can still call things over on Lambda and use some of those functions. So we know Dave, it is additive and nothing ever dominates the entire world and nothing ever dies. >>So we have, we have a long runway of activities still to go on in containers and Kubernetes. We're always looking for what that next thing is. And what's great about this ecosystem is most of it tends to be additive and plug into the pieces there, there's certain tools that, you know, span beyond what can happen in the container world and aren't limited to it. And there's others that are specific for it. And to talk about the industries, Dave, you know, I love, we we have, we have a community event that we run that's gonna happen at Cubans called OpenShift Commons. And when you look at like, who's speaking there? Oh, we've got, you know, for Lockheed Martin, University of Michigan and I g Bank all speaking there. So you look and it's like, okay, cool, I've got automotive, I've got, you know, public sector, I've got, you know, university education and I've got finance. So all of you know, there is not an industry that is not touched by this. And the general wave of software adoption is the reason why, you know, not just adoption, but the creation of new software is one of the differentiators for companies. And that is what, that's the reason why I do containers, isn't because it's some cool technology and Kubernetes is great to put on my resume, but that it can actually accelerate my developers and help me create technology that makes me respond to my business and my ultimate end users. Well, >>And you know, as you know, we've been talking about the Supercloud a lot and the Kubernetes is clearly enabler to, to Supercloud, but I wanted to go back, you and John Furrier have done so many of, you know, the, the cube cons, but but go back to Docker con before Kubernetes was even a thing. And so you sort of saw this, you know, grow. I think there's what, how many projects are in CNCF now? I mean, hundreds. Hundreds, okay. And so you're, Will we hear things in Detroit, things like, you know, new projects like, you know, Argo and capabilities around SI store and things like that? Well, you're gonna hear a lot about that. Or is it just too much to cover? >>So I, I mean the, the good news, Dave, is that the CNCF really is, is a good steward for this community and new things got in get in. So there's so much going on with the existing projects that some of the new ones sometimes have a little bit of a harder time making a little bit of buzz. One of the more interesting ones is a project that's been around for a while that I think back to the first couple of Cube Cuban that John and I did service Mesh and Istio, which was created by Google, but lived under basically a, I guess you would say a Google dominated governance for a number of years is now finally under the CNCF Foundation. So I talked to a number of companies over the years and definitely many of the contributors over the years that didn't love that it was a Google Run thing, and now it is finally part. >>So just like Kubernetes is, we have SEO and also can Native that I mentioned before also came outta Google and those are all in the cncf. So will there be new projects? Yes. The CNCF is sometimes they, they do matchmaking. So in some of the observability space, there were a couple of projects that they said, Hey, maybe you can go merge down the road. And they ended up doing that. So there's still you, you look at all these projects and if I was an end user saying, Oh my God, there is so much change and so many projects, you know, I can't spend the time in the effort to learn about all of these. And that's one of the challenges and something obviously at Red Hat, we spend a lot of time figuring out, you know, not to make winners, but which are the things that customers need, Where can we help make them run in production for our, our customers and, and help bring some stability and a little bit of security for the overall ecosystem. >>Well, speaking of security, security and, and skill sets, we've talked about those two things and they sort of go hand in hand when I go to security events. I mean, we're at reinforced last summer, we were just recently at the CrowdStrike event. A lot of the discussion is sort of best practice because it's so complicated. And, and, and will you, I presume you're gonna hear a lot of that here because security securing containers now, you know, the whole shift left thing and shield right is, is a complicated matter, especially when you saw with the earlier data from the Red Hat survey, the the gaps are around skill sets. People don't have the skill. So should we expect to hear a lot about that, A lot of sort of how to, how to take advantage of some of these new capabilities? >>Yeah, Dave, absolutely. So, you know, one of the conversations going on in the community right now is, you know, has DevOps maybe played out as we expect to see it? There's a newer term called platform engineering, and how much do I need to do there? Something that I, I know your, your team's written a lot about Dave, is how much do you need to know versus what can you shift to just a platform or a service that I can consume? I've talked a number of times with you since I've been at Red Hat about the cloud services that we offer. So you want to use our offering in the public cloud. Our first recommendation is, hey, we've got cloud services, how much Kubernetes do you really want to learn versus you want to do what you can build on top of it, modernize the pieces and have less running the plumbing and electric and more, you know, taking advantage of the, the technologies there. So that's a big thing we've seen, you know, we've got a big SRE team that can manage that for use so that you have to spend less time worrying about what really is un differentiated heavy lifting and spend more time on what's important to your business and your >>Customers. So, and that's, and that's through a managed service. >>Yeah, absolutely. >>That whole space is just taken off. All right, Stu I'll give you the final word. You know, what are you excited about for, for, for this upcoming event and Detroit? Interesting choice of venue? Yeah, >>Look, first of off, easy flight. I've, I've never been to Detroit, so I'm, I'm willing to give it a shot and hopefully, you know, that awesome airport. There's some, some, some good things there to learn. The show itself is really a choose your own adventure because there's so much going on. The main show of QAN and cloud Native Con is Wednesday through Friday, but a lot of a really interesting stuff happens on Monday and Tuesday. So we talked about things like OpenShift Commons in the security space. There's cloud Native Security Day, which is actually two days and a SIG store event. There, there's a get up show, there's, you know, k native day. There's so many things that if you want to go deep on a topic, you can go spend like a workshop in some of those you can get hands on to. And then at the show itself, there's so much, and again, you can learn from your peers. >>So it was good to see we had, during the pandemic, it tilted a little bit more vendor heavy because I think most practitioners were pretty busy focused on what they could work on and less, okay, hey, I'm gonna put together a presentation and maybe I'm restricted at going to a show. Yeah, not, we definitely saw that last year when I went to LA I was disappointed how few customer sessions there were. It, it's back when I go look through the schedule now there's way more end users sharing their stories and it, it's phenomenal to see that. And the hallway track, Dave, I didn't go to Valencia, but I hear it was really hopping felt way more like it was pre pandemic. And while there's a few people that probably won't come because Detroit, we think there's, what we've heard and what I've heard from the CNCF team is they are expecting a sizable group up there. I know a lot of the hotels right near the, where it's being held are all sold out. So it should be, should be a lot of fun. Good thing I'm speaking on an edge panel. First time I get to be a speaker at the show, Dave, it's kind of interesting to be a little bit of a different role at the show. >>So yeah, Detroit's super convenient, as I said. Awesome. Airports too. Good luck at the show. So it's a full week. The cube will be there for three days, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Thanks for coming. >>Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, sorry, >>Wednesday, Thursday, Friday is the cube, right? So thank you for that. >>And, and no ties from the host, >>No ties, only hoodies. All right Stu, thanks. Appreciate you coming in. Awesome. And thank you for watching this preview of CubeCon plus cloud Native Con with at Stu, which again starts the 24th of October, three days of broadcasting. Go to the cube.net and you can see all the action. We'll see you there.

(upbeat music) >> The ascendancy of cloud and SAS has shown new light on how organizations think about, pay for, and value hardware. Once sought after skills for practitioners with expertise in hardware troubleshooting, configuring ports, tuning storage arrays, and maximizing server utilization has been superseded by demand for cloud architects, DevOps pros, developers with expertise in microservices, container, application development, and like. Even a company like Dell, the largest hardware company in enterprise tech touts that it has more software engineers than those working in hardware. Begs the question, is hardware going the way of Coball? Well, not likely. Software has to run on something, but the labor needed to deploy, and troubleshoot, and manage hardware infrastructure is shifting. At the same time, we've seen the value flow also shifting in hardware. Once a world dominated by X86 processors value is flowing to alternatives like Nvidia and arm based designs. Moreover, other componentry like NICs, accelerators, and storage controllers are becoming more advanced, integrated, and increasingly important. The question is, does it matter? And if so, why does it matter and to whom? What does it mean to customers, workloads, OEMs, and the broader society? Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we've organized a special power panel of industry analysts and experts to address the question, does hardware still matter? Allow me to introduce the panel. Bob O'Donnell is president and chief analyst at TECHnalysis Research. Zeus Kerravala is the founder and principal analyst at ZK Research. David Nicholson is a CTO and tech expert. Keith Townson is CEO and founder of CTO Advisor. And Marc Staimer is the chief dragon slayer at Dragon Slayer Consulting and oftentimes a Wikibon contributor. Guys, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks so much for spending some time here. >> Good to be here. >> Thanks. >> Thanks for having us. >> Okay before we get into it, I just want to bring up some data from ETR. This is a survey that ETR does every quarter. It's a survey of about 1200 to 1500 CIOs and IT buyers and I'm showing a subset of the taxonomy here. This XY axis and the vertical axis is something called net score. That's a measure of spending momentum. It's essentially the percentage of customers that are spending more on a particular area than those spending less. You subtract the lesses from the mores and you get a net score. Anything the horizontal axis is pervasion in the data set. Sometimes they call it market share. It's not like IDC market share. It's just the percentage of activity in the data set as a percentage of the total. That red 40% line, anything over that is considered highly elevated. And for the past, I don't know, eight to 12 quarters, the big four have been AI and machine learning, containers, RPA and cloud and cloud of course is very impressive because not only is it elevated in the vertical access, but you know it's very highly pervasive on the horizontal. So what I've done is highlighted in red that historical hardware sector. The server, the storage, the networking, and even PCs despite the work from home are depressed in relative terms. And of course, data center collocation services. Okay so you're seeing obviously hardware is not... People don't have the spending momentum today that they used to. They've got other priorities, et cetera, but I want to start and go kind of around the horn with each of you, what is the number one trend that each of you sees in hardware and why does it matter? Bob O'Donnell, can you please start us off? >> Sure Dave, so look, I mean, hardware is incredibly important and one comment first I'll make on that slide is let's not forget that hardware, even though it may not be growing, the amount of money spent on hardware continues to be very, very high. It's just a little bit more stable. It's not as subject to big jumps as we see certainly in other software areas. But look, the important thing that's happening in hardware is the diversification of the types of chip architectures we're seeing and how and where they're being deployed, right? You refer to this in your opening. We've moved from a world of x86 CPUs from Intel and AMD to things like obviously GPUs, DPUs. We've got VPU for, you know, computer vision processing. We've got AI-dedicated accelerators, we've got all kinds of other network acceleration tools and AI-powered tools. There's an incredible diversification of these chip architectures and that's been happening for a while but now we're seeing them more widely deployed and it's being done that way because workloads are evolving. The kinds of workloads that we're seeing in some of these software areas require different types of compute engines than traditionally we've had. The other thing is (coughs), excuse me, the power requirements based on where geographically that compute happens is also evolving. This whole notion of the edge, which I'm sure we'll get into a little bit more detail later is driven by the fact that where the compute actually sits closer to in theory the edge and where edge devices are, depending on your definition, changes the power requirements. It changes the kind of connectivity that connects the applications to those edge devices and those applications. So all of those things are being impacted by this growing diversity in chip architectures. And that's a very long-term trend that I think we're going to continue to see play out through this decade and well into the 2030s as well. >> Excellent, great, great points. Thank you, Bob. Zeus up next, please. >> Yeah, and I think the other thing when you look at this chart to remember too is, you know, through the pandemic and the work from home period a lot of companies did put their office modernization projects on hold and you heard that echoed, you know, from really all the network manufacturers anyways. They always had projects underway to upgrade networks. They put 'em on hold. Now that people are starting to come back to the office, they're looking at that now. So we might see some change there, but Bob's right. The size of those market are quite a bit different. I think the other big trend here is the hardware companies, at least in the areas that I look at networking are understanding now that it's a combination of hardware and software and silicon that works together that creates that optimum type of performance and experience, right? So some things are best done in silicon. Some like data forwarding and things like that. Historically when you look at the way network devices were built, you did everything in hardware. You configured in hardware, they did all the data for you, and did all the management. And that's been decoupled now. So more and more of the control element has been placed in software. A lot of the high-performance things, encryption, and as I mentioned, data forwarding, packet analysis, stuff like that is still done in hardware, but not everything is done in hardware. And so it's a combination of the two. I think, for the people that work with the equipment as well, there's been more shift to understanding how to work with software. And this is a mistake I think the industry made for a while is we had everybody convinced they had to become a programmer. It's really more a software power user. Can you pull things out of software? Can you through API calls and things like that. But I think the big frame here is, David, it's a combination of hardware, software working together that really make a difference. And you know how much you invest in hardware versus software kind of depends on the performance requirements you have. And I'll talk about that later but that's really the big shift that's happened here. It's the vendors that figured out how to optimize performance by leveraging the best of all of those. >> Excellent. You guys both brought up some really good themes that we can tap into Dave Nicholson, please. >> Yeah, so just kind of picking up where Bob started off. Not only are we seeing the rise of a variety of CPU designs, but I think increasingly the connectivity that's involved from a hardware perspective, from a kind of a server or service design perspective has become increasingly important. I think we'll get a chance to look at this in more depth a little bit later but when you look at what happens on the motherboard, you know we're not in so much a CPU-centric world anymore. Various application environments have various demands and you can meet them by using a variety of components. And it's extremely significant when you start looking down at the component level. It's really important that you optimize around those components. So I guess my summary would be, I think we are moving out of the CPU-centric hardware model into more of a connectivity-centric model. We can talk more about that later. >> Yeah, great. And thank you, David, and Keith Townsend I really interested in your perspectives on this. I mean, for years you worked in a data center surrounded by hardware. Now that we have the software defined data center, please chime in here. >> Well, you know, I'm going to dig deeper into that software-defined data center nature of what's happening with hardware. Hardware is meeting software infrastructure as code is a thing. What does that code look like? We're still trying to figure out but servicing up these capabilities that the previous analysts have brought up, how do I ensure that I can get the level of services needed for the applications that I need? Whether they're legacy, traditional data center, workloads, AI ML, workloads, workloads at the edge. How do I codify that and consume that as a service? And hardware vendors are figuring this out. HPE, the big push into GreenLake as a service. Dale now with Apex taking what we need, these bare bone components, moving it forward with DDR five, six CXL, et cetera, and surfacing that as cold or as services. This is a very tough problem. As we transition from consuming a hardware-based configuration to this infrastructure as cold paradigm shift. >> Yeah, programmable infrastructure, really attacking that sort of labor discussion that we were having earlier, okay. Last but not least Marc Staimer, please. >> Thanks, Dave. My peers raised really good points. I agree with most of them, but I'm going to disagree with the title of this session, which is, does hardware matter? It absolutely matters. You can't run software on the air. You can't run it in an ephemeral cloud, although there's the technical cloud and that's a different issue. The cloud is kind of changed everything. And from a market perspective in the 40 plus years I've been in this business, I've seen this perception that hardware has to go down in price every year. And part of that was driven by Moore's law. And we're coming to, let's say a lag or an end, depending on who you talk to Moore's law. So we're not doubling our transistors every 18 to 24 months in a chip and as a result of that, there's been a higher emphasis on software. From a market perception, there's no penalty. They don't put the same pressure on software from the market to reduce the cost every year that they do on hardware, which kind of bass ackwards when you think about it. Hardware costs are fixed. Software costs tend to be very low. It's kind of a weird thing that we do in the market. And what's changing is we're now starting to treat hardware like software from an OPEX versus CapEx perspective. So yes, hardware matters. And we'll talk about that more in length. >> You know, I want to follow up on that. And I wonder if you guys have a thought on this, Bob O'Donnell, you and I have talked about this a little bit. Marc, you just pointed out that Moore's laws could have waning. Pat Gelsinger recently at their investor meeting said that he promised that Moore's law is alive and well. And the point I made in breaking analysis was okay, great. You know, Pat said, doubling transistors every 18 to 24 months, let's say that Intel can do that. Even though we know it's waning somewhat. Look at the M1 Ultra from Apple (chuckles). In about 15 months increased transistor density on their package by 6X. So to your earlier point, Bob, we have this sort of these alternative processors that are really changing things. And to Dave Nicholson's point, there's a whole lot of supporting components as well. Do you have a comment on that, Bob? >> Yeah, I mean, it's a great point, Dave. And one thing to bear in mind as well, not only are we seeing a diversity of these different chip architectures and different types of components as a number of us have raised the other big point and I think it was Keith that mentioned it. CXL and interconnect on the chip itself is dramatically changing it. And a lot of the more interesting advances that are going to continue to drive Moore's law forward in terms of the way we think about performance, if perhaps not number of transistors per se, is the interconnects that become available. You're seeing the development of chiplets or tiles, people use different names, but the idea is you can have different components being put together eventually in sort of a Lego block style. And what that's also going to allow, not only is that going to give interesting performance possibilities 'cause of the faster interconnect. So you can share, have shared memory between things which for big workloads like AI, huge data sets can make a huge difference in terms of how you talk to memory over a network connection, for example, but not only that you're going to see more diversity in the types of solutions that can be built. So we're going to see even more choices in hardware from a silicon perspective because you'll be able to piece together different elements. And oh, by the way, the other benefit of that is we've reached a point in chip architectures where not everything benefits from being smaller. We've been so focused and so obsessed when it comes to Moore's law, to the size of each individual transistor and yes, for certain architecture types, CPUs and GPUs in particular, that's absolutely true, but we've already hit the point where things like RF for 5g and wifi and other wireless technologies and a whole bunch of other things actually don't get any better with a smaller transistor size. They actually get worse. So the beauty of these chiplet architectures is you could actually combine different chip manufacturing sizes. You know you hear about four nanometer and five nanometer along with 14 nanometer on a single chip, each one optimized for its specific application yet together, they can give you the best of all worlds. And so we're just at the very beginning of that era, which I think is going to drive a ton of innovation. Again, gets back to my comment about different types of devices located geographically different places at the edge, in the data center, you know, in a private cloud versus a public cloud. All of those things are going to be impacted and there'll be a lot more options because of this silicon diversity and this interconnect diversity that we're just starting to see. >> Yeah, David. David Nicholson's got a graphic on that. They're going to show later. Before we do that, I want to introduce some data. I actually want to ask Keith to comment on this before we, you know, go on. This next slide is some data from ETR that shows the percent of customers that cited difficulty procuring hardware. And you can see the red is they had significant issues and it's most pronounced in laptops and networking hardware on the far right-hand side, but virtually all categories, firewalls, peripheral servers, storage are having moderately difficult procurement issues. That's the sort of pinkish or significant challenges. So Keith, I mean, what are you seeing with your customers in the hardware supply chains and bottlenecks? And you know we're seeing it with automobiles and appliances but so it goes beyond IT. The semiconductor, you know, challenges. What's been the impact on the buyer community and society and do you have any sense as to when it will subside? >> You know, I was just asked this question yesterday and I'm feeling the pain. People question, kind of a side project within the CTO advisor, we built a hybrid infrastructure, traditional IT data center that we're walking with the traditional customer and modernizing that data center. So it was, you know, kind of a snapshot of time in 2016, 2017, 10 gigabit, ARISTA switches, some older Dell's 730 XD switches, you know, speeds and feeds. And we said we would modern that with the latest Intel stack and connected to the public cloud and then the pandemic hit and we are experiencing a lot of the same challenges. I thought we'd easily migrate from 10 gig networking to 25 gig networking path that customers are going on. The 10 gig network switches that I bought used are now double the price because you can't get legacy 10 gig network switches because all of the manufacturers are focusing on the more profitable 25 gig for capacity, even the 25 gig switches. And we're focused on networking right now. It's hard to procure. We're talking about nine to 12 months or more lead time. So we're seeing customers adjust by adopting cloud. But if you remember early on in the pandemic, Microsoft Azure kind of gated customers that didn't have a capacity agreement. So customers are keeping an eye on that. There's a desire to abstract away from the underlying vendor to be able to control or provision your IT services in a way that we do with VMware VP or some other virtualization technology where it doesn't matter who can get me the hardware, they can just get me the hardware because it's critically impacting projects and timelines. >> So that's a great setup Zeus for you with Keith mentioned the earlier the software-defined data center with software-defined networking and cloud. Do you see a day where networking hardware is monetized and it's all about the software, or are we there already? >> No, we're not there already. And I don't see that really happening any time in the near future. I do think it's changed though. And just to be clear, I mean, when you look at that data, this is saying customers have had problems procuring the equipment, right? And there's not a network vendor out there. I've talked to Norman Rice at Extreme, and I've talked to the folks at Cisco and ARISTA about this. They all said they could have had blowout quarters had they had the inventory to ship. So it's not like customers aren't buying this anymore. Right? I do think though, when it comes to networking network has certainly changed some because there's a lot more controls as I mentioned before that you can do in software. And I think the customers need to start thinking about the types of hardware they buy and you know, where they're going to use it and, you know, what its purpose is. Because I've talked to customers that have tried to run software and commodity hardware and where the performance requirements are very high and it's bogged down, right? It just doesn't have the horsepower to run it. And, you know, even when you do that, you have to start thinking of the components you use. The NICs you buy. And I've talked to customers that have simply just gone through the process replacing a NIC card and a commodity box and had some performance problems and, you know, things like that. So if agility is more important than performance, then by all means try running software on commodity hardware. I think that works in some cases. If performance though is more important, that's when you need that kind of turnkey hardware system. And I've actually seen more and more customers reverting back to that model. In fact, when you talk to even some startups I think today about when they come to market, they're delivering things more on appliances because that's what customers want. And so there's this kind of app pivot this pendulum of agility and performance. And if performance absolutely matters, that's when you do need to buy these kind of turnkey, prebuilt hardware systems. If agility matters more, that's when you can go more to software, but the underlying hardware still does matter. So I think, you know, will we ever have a day where you can just run it on whatever hardware? Maybe but I'll long be retired by that point. So I don't care. >> Well, you bring up a good point Zeus. And I remember the early days of cloud, the narrative was, oh, the cloud vendors. They don't use EMC storage, they just run on commodity storage. And then of course, low and behold, you know, they've trot out James Hamilton to talk about all the custom hardware that they were building. And you saw Google and Microsoft follow suit. >> Well, (indistinct) been falling for this forever. Right? And I mean, all the way back to the turn of the century, we were calling for the commodity of hardware. And it's never really happened because you can still drive. As long as you can drive innovation into it, customers will always lean towards the innovation cycles 'cause they get more features faster and things. And so the vendors have done a good job of keeping that cycle up but it'll be a long time before. >> Yeah, and that's why you see companies like Pure Storage. A storage company has 69% gross margins. All right. I want to go jump ahead. We're going to bring up the slide four. I want to go back to something that Bob O'Donnell was talking about, the sort of supporting act. The diversity of silicon and we've marched to the cadence of Moore's law for decades. You know, we asked, you know, is Moore's law dead? We say it's moderating. Dave Nicholson. You want to talk about those supporting components. And you shared with us a slide that shift. You call it a shift from a processor-centric world to a connect-centric world. What do you mean by that? And let's bring up slide four and you can talk to that. >> Yeah, yeah. So first, I want to echo this sentiment that the question does hardware matter is sort of the answer is of course it matters. Maybe the real question should be, should you care about it? And the answer to that is it depends who you are. If you're an end user using an application on your mobile device, maybe you don't care how the architecture is put together. You just care that the service is delivered but as you back away from that and you get closer and closer to the source, someone needs to care about the hardware and it should matter. Why? Because essentially what hardware is doing is it's consuming electricity and dollars and the more efficiently you can configure hardware, the more bang you're going to get for your buck. So it's not only a quantitative question in terms of how much can you deliver? But it also ends up being a qualitative change as capabilities allow for things we couldn't do before, because we just didn't have the aggregate horsepower to do it. So this chart actually comes out of some performance tests that were done. So it happens to be Dell servers with Broadcom components. And the point here was to peel back, you know, peel off the top of the server and look at what's in that server, starting with, you know, the PCI interconnect. So PCIE gen three, gen four, moving forward. What are the effects on from an interconnect versus on performance application performance, translating into new orders per minute, processed per dollar, et cetera, et cetera? If you look at the advances in CPU architecture mapped against the advances in interconnect and storage subsystem performance, you can see that CPU architecture is sort of lagging behind in a way. And Bob mentioned this idea of tiling and all of the different ways to get around that. When we do performance testing, we can actually peg CPUs, just running the performance tests without any actual database environments working. So right now we're at this sort of imbalance point where you have to make sure you design things properly to get the most bang per kilowatt hour of power per dollar input. So the key thing here what this is highlighting is just as a very specific example, you take a card that's designed as a gen three PCIE device, and you plug it into a gen four slot. Now the card is the bottleneck. You plug a gen four card into a gen four slot. Now the gen four slot is the bottleneck. So we're constantly chasing these bottlenecks. Someone has to be focused on that from an architectural perspective, it's critically important. So there's no question that it matters. But of course, various people in this food chain won't care where it comes from. I guess a good analogy might be, where does our food come from? If I get a steak, it's a pink thing wrapped in plastic, right? Well, there are a lot of inputs that a lot of people have to care about to get that to me. Do I care about all of those things? No. Are they important? They're critically important. >> So, okay. So all I want to get to the, okay. So what does this all mean to customers? And so what I'm hearing from you is to balance a system it's becoming, you know, more complicated. And I kind of been waiting for this day for a long time, because as we all know the bottleneck was always the spinning disc, the last mechanical. So people who wrote software knew that when they were doing it right, the disc had to go and do stuff. And so they were doing other things in the software. And now with all these new interconnects and flash and things like you could do atomic rights. And so that opens up new software possibilities and combine that with alternative processes. But what's the so what on this to the customer and the application impact? Can anybody address that? >> Yeah, let me address that for a moment. I want to leverage some of the things that Bob said, Keith said, Zeus said, and David said, yeah. So I'm a bit of a contrarian in some of this. For example, on the chip side. As the chips get smaller, 14 nanometer, 10 nanometer, five nanometer, soon three nanometer, we talk about more cores, but the biggest problem on the chip is the interconnect from the chip 'cause the wires get smaller. People don't realize in 2004 the latency on those wires in the chips was 80 picoseconds. Today it's 1300 picoseconds. That's on the chip. This is why they're not getting faster. So we maybe getting a little bit slowing down in Moore's law. But even as we kind of conquer that you still have the interconnect problem and the interconnect problem goes beyond the chip. It goes within the system, composable architectures. It goes to the point where Keith made, ultimately you need a hybrid because what we're seeing, what I'm seeing and I'm talking to customers, the biggest issue they have is moving data. Whether it be in a chip, in a system, in a data center, between data centers, moving data is now the biggest gating item in performance. So if you want to move it from, let's say your transactional database to your machine learning, it's the bottleneck, it's moving the data. And so when you look at it from a distributed environment, now you've got to move the compute to the data. The only way to get around these bottlenecks today is to spend less time in trying to move the data and more time in taking the compute, the software, running on hardware closer to the data. Go ahead. >> So is this what you mean when Nicholson was talking about a shift from a processor centric world to a connectivity centric world? You're talking about moving the bits across all the different components, not having the processor you're saying is essentially becoming the bottleneck or the memory, I guess. >> Well, that's one of them and there's a lot of different bottlenecks, but it's the data movement itself. It's moving away from, wait, why do we need to move the data? Can we move the compute, the processing closer to the data? Because if we keep them separate and this has been a trend now where people are moving processing away from it. It's like the edge. I think it was Zeus or David. You were talking about the edge earlier. As you look at the edge, who defines the edge, right? Is the edge a closet or is it a sensor? If it's a sensor, how do you do AI at the edge? When you don't have enough power, you don't have enough computable. People were inventing chips to do that. To do all that at the edge, to do AI within the sensor, instead of moving the data to a data center or a cloud to do the processing. Because the lag in latency is always limited by speed of light. How fast can you move the electrons? And all this interconnecting, all the processing, and all the improvement we're seeing in the PCIE bus from three, to four, to five, to CXL, to a higher bandwidth on the network. And that's all great but none of that deals with the speed of light latency. And that's an-- Go ahead. >> You know Marc, no, I just want to just because what you're referring to could be looked at at a macro level, which I think is what you're describing. You can also look at it at a more micro level from a systems design perspective, right? I'm going to be the resident knuckle dragging hardware guy on the panel today. But it's exactly right. You moving compute closer to data includes concepts like peripheral cards that have built in intelligence, right? So again, in some of this testing that I'm referring to, we saw dramatic improvements when you basically took the horsepower instead of using the CPU horsepower for the like IO. Now you have essentially offload engines in the form of storage controllers, rate controllers, of course, for ethernet NICs, smart NICs. And so when you can have these sort of offload engines and we've gone through these waves over time. People think, well, wait a minute, raid controller and NVMe? You know, flash storage devices. Does that make sense? It turns out it does. Why? Because you're actually at a micro level doing exactly what you're referring to. You're bringing compute closer to the data. Now, closer to the data meaning closer to the data storage subsystem. It doesn't solve the macro issue that you're referring to but it is important. Again, going back to this idea of system design optimization, always chasing the bottleneck, plugging the holes. Someone needs to do that in this value chain in order to get the best value for every kilowatt hour of power and every dollar. >> Yeah. >> Well this whole drive performance has created some really interesting architectural designs, right? Like Nickelson, the rise of the DPU right? Brings more processing power into systems that already had a lot of processing power. There's also been some really interesting, you know, kind of innovation in the area of systems architecture too. If you look at the way Nvidia goes to market, their drive kit is a prebuilt piece of hardware, you know, optimized for self-driving cars, right? They partnered with Pure Storage and ARISTA to build that AI-ready infrastructure. I remember when I talked to Charlie Giancarlo, the CEO of Pure about when the three companies rolled that out. He said, "Look, if you're going to do AI, "you need good store. "You need fast storage, fast processor and fast network." And so for customers to be able to put that together themselves was very, very difficult. There's a lot of software that needs tuning as well. So the three companies partner together to create a fully integrated turnkey hardware system with a bunch of optimized software that runs on it. And so in that case, in some ways the hardware was leading the software innovation. And so, the variety of different architectures we have today around hardware has really exploded. And I think it, part of the what Bob brought up at the beginning about the different chip design. >> Yeah, Bob talked about that earlier. Bob, I mean, most AI today is modeling, you know, and a lot of that's done in the cloud and it looks from my standpoint anyway that the future is going to be a lot of AI inferencing at the edge. And that's a radically different architecture, Bob, isn't it? >> It is, it's a completely different architecture. And just to follow up on a couple points, excellent conversation guys. Dave talked about system architecture and really this that's what this boils down to, right? But it's looking at architecture at every level. I was talking about the individual different components the new interconnect methods. There's this new thing called UCIE universal connection. I forget what it stands answer for, but it's a mechanism for doing chiplet architectures, but then again, you have to take it up to the system level, 'cause it's all fine and good. If you have this SOC that's tuned and optimized, but it has to talk to the rest of the system. And that's where you see other issues. And you've seen things like CXL and other interconnect standards, you know, and nobody likes to talk about interconnect 'cause it's really wonky and really technical and not that sexy, but at the end of the day it's incredibly important exactly. To the other points that were being raised like mark raised, for example, about getting that compute closer to where the data is and that's where again, a diversity of chip architectures help and exactly to your last comment there Dave, putting that ability in an edge device is really at the cutting edge of what we're seeing on a semiconductor design and the ability to, for example, maybe it's an FPGA, maybe it's a dedicated AI chip. It's another kind of chip architecture that's being created to do that inferencing on the edge. Because again, it's that the cost and the challenges of moving lots of data, whether it be from say a smartphone to a cloud-based application or whether it be from a private network to a cloud or any other kinds of permutations we can think of really matters. And the other thing is we're tackling bigger problems. So architecturally, not even just architecturally within a system, but when we think about DPUs and the sort of the east west data center movement conversation that we hear Nvidia and others talk about, it's about combining multiple sets of these systems to function together more efficiently again with even bigger sets of data. So really is about tackling where the processing is needed, having the interconnect and the ability to get where the data you need to the right place at the right time. And because those needs are diversifying, we're just going to continue to see an explosion of different choices and options, which is going to make hardware even more essential I would argue than it is today. And so I think what we're going to see not only does hardware matter, it's going to matter even more in the future than it does now. >> Great, yeah. Great discussion, guys. I want to bring Keith back into the conversation here. Keith, if your main expertise in tech is provisioning LUNs, you probably you want to look for another job. So maybe clearly hardware matters, but with software defined everything, do people with hardware expertise matter outside of for instance, component manufacturers or cloud companies? I mean, VMware certainly changed the dynamic in servers. Dell just spun off its most profitable asset and VMware. So it obviously thinks hardware can stand alone. How does an enterprise architect view the shift to software defined hyperscale cloud and how do you see the shifting demand for skills in enterprise IT? >> So I love the question and I'll take a different view of it. If you're a data analyst and your primary value add is that you do ETL transformation, talk to a CDO, a chief data officer over midsize bank a little bit ago. He said 80% of his data scientists' time is done on ETL. Super not value ad. He wants his data scientists to do data science work. Chances are if your only value is that you do LUN provisioning, then you probably don't have a job now. The technologies have gotten much more intelligent. As infrastructure pros, we want to give infrastructure pros the opportunities to shine and I think the software defined nature and the automation that we're seeing vendors undertake, whether it's Dell, HP, Lenovo take your pick that Pure Storage, NetApp that are doing the automation and the ML needed so that these practitioners don't spend 80% of their time doing LUN provisioning and focusing on their true expertise, which is ensuring that data is stored. Data is retrievable, data's protected, et cetera. I think the shift is to focus on that part of the job that you're ensuring no matter where the data's at, because as my data is spread across the enterprise hybrid different types, you know, Dave, you talk about the super cloud a lot. If my data is in the super cloud, protecting that data and securing that data becomes much more complicated when than when it was me just procuring or provisioning LUNs. So when you say, where should the shift be, or look be, you know, focusing on the real value, which is making sure that customers can access data, can recover data, can get data at performance levels that they need within the price point. They need to get at those datasets and where they need it. We talked a lot about where they need out. One last point about this interconnecting. I have this vision and I think we all do of composable infrastructure. This idea that scaled out does not solve every problem. The cloud can give me infinite scale out. Sometimes I just need a single OS with 64 terabytes of RAM and 204 GPUs or GPU instances that single OS does not exist today. And the opportunity is to create composable infrastructure so that we solve a lot of these problems that just simply don't scale out. >> You know, wow. So many interesting points there. I had just interviewed Zhamak Dehghani, who's the founder of Data Mesh last week. And she made a really interesting point. She said, "Think about, we have separate stacks. "We have an application stack and we have "a data pipeline stack and the transaction systems, "the transaction database, we extract data from that," to your point, "We ETL it in, you know, it takes forever. "And then we have this separate sort of data stack." If we're going to inject more intelligence and data and AI into applications, those two stacks, her contention is they have to come together. And when you think about, you know, super cloud bringing compute to data, that was what Haduck was supposed to be. It ended up all sort of going into a central location, but it's almost a rhetorical question. I mean, it seems that that necessitates new thinking around hardware architectures as it kind of everything's the edge. And the other point is to your point, Keith, it's really hard to secure that. So when you can think about offloads, right, you've heard the stats, you know, Nvidia talks about it. Broadcom talks about it that, you know, that 30%, 25 to 30% of the CPU cycles are wasted on doing things like storage offloads, or networking or security. It seems like maybe Zeus you have a comment on this. It seems like new architectures need to come other to support, you know, all of that stuff that Keith and I just dispute. >> Yeah, and by the way, I do want to Keith, the question you just asked. Keith, it's the point I made at the beginning too about engineers do need to be more software-centric, right? They do need to have better software skills. In fact, I remember talking to Cisco about this last year when they surveyed their engineer base, only about a third of 'em had ever made an API call, which you know that that kind of shows this big skillset change, you know, that has to come. But on the point of architectures, I think the big change here is edge because it brings in distributed compute models. Historically, when you think about compute, even with multi-cloud, we never really had multi-cloud. We'd use multiple centralized clouds, but compute was always centralized, right? It was in a branch office, in a data center, in a cloud. With edge what we creates is the rise of distributed computing where we'll have an application that actually accesses different resources and at different edge locations. And I think Marc, you were talking about this, like the edge could be in your IoT device. It could be your campus edge. It could be cellular edge, it could be your car, right? And so we need to start thinkin' about how our applications interact with all those different parts of that edge ecosystem, you know, to create a single experience. The consumer apps, a lot of consumer apps largely works that way. If you think of like app like Uber, right? It pulls in information from all kinds of different edge application, edge services. And, you know, it creates pretty cool experience. We're just starting to get to that point in the business world now. There's a lot of security implications and things like that, but I do think it drives more architectural decisions to be made about how I deploy what data where and where I do my processing, where I do my AI and things like that. It actually makes the world more complicated. In some ways we can do so much more with it, but I think it does drive us more towards turnkey systems, at least initially in order to, you know, ensure performance and security. >> Right. Marc, I wanted to go to you. You had indicated to me that you wanted to chat about this a little bit. You've written quite a bit about the integration of hardware and software. You know, we've watched Oracle's move from, you know, buying Sun and then basically using that in a highly differentiated approach. Engineered systems. What's your take on all that? I know you also have some thoughts on the shift from CapEx to OPEX chime in on that. >> Sure. When you look at it, there are advantages to having one vendor who has the software and hardware. They can synergistically make them work together that you can't do in a commodity basis. If you own the software and somebody else has the hardware, I'll give you an example would be Oracle. As you talked about with their exit data platform, they literally are leveraging microcode in the Intel chips. And now in AMD chips and all the way down to Optane, they make basically AMD database servers work with Optane memory PMM in their storage systems, not MVME, SSD PMM. I'm talking about the cards itself. So there are advantages you can take advantage of if you own the stack, as you were putting out earlier, Dave, of both the software and the hardware. Okay, that's great. But on the other side of that, that tends to give you better performance, but it tends to cost a little more. On the commodity side it costs less but you get less performance. What Zeus had said earlier, it depends where you're running your application. How much performance do you need? What kind of performance do you need? One of the things about moving to the edge and I'll get to the OPEX CapEx in a second. One of the issues about moving to the edge is what kind of processing do you need? If you're running in a CCTV camera on top of a traffic light, how much power do you have? How much cooling do you have that you can run this? And more importantly, do you have to take the data you're getting and move it somewhere else and get processed and the information is sent back? I mean, there are companies out there like Brain Chip that have developed AI chips that can run on the sensor without a CPU. Without any additional memory. So, I mean, there's innovation going on to deal with this question of data movement. There's companies out there like Tachyon that are combining GPUs, CPUs, and DPUs in a single chip. Think of it as super composable architecture. They're looking at being able to do more in less. On the OPEX and CapEx issue. >> Hold that thought, hold that thought on the OPEX CapEx, 'cause we're running out of time and maybe you can wrap on that. I just wanted to pick up on something you said about the integrated hardware software. I mean, other than the fact that, you know, Michael Dell unlocked whatever $40 billion for himself and Silverlake, I was always a fan of a spin in with VMware basically become the Oracle of hardware. Now I know it would've been a nightmare for the ecosystem and culturally, they probably would've had a VMware brain drain, but what does anybody have any thoughts on that as a sort of a thought exercise? I was always a fan of that on paper. >> I got to eat a little crow. I did not like the Dale VMware acquisition for the industry in general. And I think it hurt the industry in general, HPE, Cisco walked away a little bit from that VMware relationship. But when I talked to customers, they loved it. You know, I got to be honest. They absolutely loved the integration. The VxRail, VxRack solution exploded. Nutanix became kind of a afterthought when it came to competing. So that spin in, when we talk about the ability to innovate and the ability to create solutions that you just simply can't create because you don't have the full stack. Dell was well positioned to do that with a potential span in of VMware. >> Yeah, we're going to be-- Go ahead please. >> Yeah, in fact, I think you're right, Keith, it was terrible for the industry. Great for Dell. And I remember talking to Chad Sakac when he was running, you know, VCE, which became Rack and Rail, their ability to stay in lockstep with what VMware was doing. What was the number one workload running on hyperconverged forever? It was VMware. So their ability to remain in lockstep with VMware gave them a huge competitive advantage. And Dell came out of nowhere in, you know, the hyper-converged market and just started taking share because of that relationship. So, you know, this sort I guess it's, you know, from a Dell perspective I thought it gave them a pretty big advantage that they didn't really exploit across their other properties, right? Networking and service and things like they could have given the dominance that VMware had. From an industry perspective though, I do think it's better to have them be coupled. So. >> I agree. I mean, they could. I think they could have dominated in super cloud and maybe they would become the next Oracle where everybody hates 'em, but they kick ass. But guys. We got to wrap up here. And so what I'm going to ask you is I'm going to go and reverse the order this time, you know, big takeaways from this conversation today, which guys by the way, I can't thank you enough phenomenal insights, but big takeaways, any final thoughts, any research that you're working on that you want highlight or you know, what you look for in the future? Try to keep it brief. We'll go in reverse order. Maybe Marc, you could start us off please. >> Sure, on the research front, I'm working on a total cost of ownership of an integrated database analytics machine learning versus separate services. On the other aspect that I would wanted to chat about real quickly, OPEX versus CapEx, the cloud changed the market perception of hardware in the sense that you can use hardware or buy hardware like you do software. As you use it, pay for what you use in arrears. The good thing about that is you're only paying for what you use, period. You're not for what you don't use. I mean, it's compute time, everything else. The bad side about that is you have no predictability in your bill. It's elastic, but every user I've talked to says every month it's different. And from a budgeting perspective, it's very hard to set up your budget year to year and it's causing a lot of nightmares. So it's just something to be aware of. From a CapEx perspective, you have no more CapEx if you're using that kind of base system but you lose a certain amount of control as well. So ultimately that's some of the issues. But my biggest point, my biggest takeaway from this is the biggest issue right now that everybody I talk to in some shape or form it comes down to data movement whether it be ETLs that you talked about Keith or other aspects moving it between hybrid locations, moving it within a system, moving it within a chip. All those are key issues. >> Great, thank you. Okay, CTO advisor, give us your final thoughts. >> All right. Really, really great commentary. Again, I'm going to point back to us taking the walk that our customers are taking, which is trying to do this conversion of all primary data center to a hybrid of which I have this hard earned philosophy that enterprise IT is additive. When we add a service, we rarely subtract a service. So the landscape and service area what we support has to grow. So our research focuses on taking that walk. We are taking a monolithic application, decomposing that to containers, and putting that in a public cloud, and connecting that back private data center and telling that story and walking that walk with our customers. This has been a super enlightening panel. >> Yeah, thank you. Real, real different world coming. David Nicholson, please. >> You know, it really hearkens back to the beginning of the conversation. You talked about momentum in the direction of cloud. I'm sort of spending my time under the hood, getting grease under my fingernails, focusing on where still the lions share of spend will be in coming years, which is OnPrem. And then of course, obviously data center infrastructure for cloud but really diving under the covers and helping folks understand the ramifications of movement between generations of CPU architecture. I know we all know Sapphire Rapids pushed into the future. When's the next Intel release coming? Who knows? We think, you know, in 2023. There have been a lot of people standing by from a practitioner's standpoint asking, well, what do I do between now and then? Does it make sense to upgrade bits and pieces of hardware or go from a last generation to a current generation when we know the next generation is coming? And so I've been very, very focused on looking at how these connectivity components like rate controllers and NICs. I know it's not as sexy as talking about cloud but just how these opponents completely change the game and actually can justify movement from say a 14th-generation architecture to a 15th-generation architecture today, even though gen 16 is coming, let's say 12 months from now. So that's where I am. Keep my phone number in the Rolodex. I literally reference Rolodex intentionally because like I said, I'm in there under the hood and it's not as sexy. But yeah, so that's what I'm focused on Dave. >> Well, you know, to paraphrase it, maybe derivative paraphrase of, you know, Larry Ellison's rant on what is cloud? It's operating systems and databases, et cetera. Rate controllers and NICs live inside of clouds. All right. You know, one of the reasons I love working with you guys is 'cause have such a wide observation space and Zeus Kerravala you, of all people, you know you have your fingers in a lot of pies. So give us your final thoughts. >> Yeah, I'm not a propeller heady as my chip counterparts here. (all laugh) So, you know, I look at the world a little differently and a lot of my research I'm doing now is the impact that distributed computing has on customer employee experiences, right? You talk to every business and how the experiences they deliver to their customers is really differentiating how they go to market. And so they're looking at these different ways of feeding up data and analytics and things like that in different places. And I think this is going to have a really profound impact on enterprise IT architecture. We're putting more data, more compute in more places all the way down to like little micro edges and retailers and things like that. And so we need the variety. Historically, if you think back to when I was in IT you know, pre-Y2K, we didn't have a lot of choice in things, right? We had a server that was rack mount or standup, right? And there wasn't a whole lot of, you know, differences in choice. But today we can deploy, you know, these really high-performance compute systems on little blades inside servers or inside, you know, autonomous vehicles and things. I think the world from here gets... You know, just the choice of what we have and the way hardware and software works together is really going to, I think, change the world the way we do things. We're already seeing that, like I said, in the consumer world, right? There's so many things you can do from, you know, smart home perspective, you know, natural language processing, stuff like that. And it's starting to hit businesses now. So just wait and watch the next five years. >> Yeah, totally. The computing power at the edge is just going to be mind blowing. >> It's unbelievable what you can do at the edge. >> Yeah, yeah. Hey Z, I just want to say that we know you're not a propeller head and I for one would like to thank you for having your master's thesis hanging on the wall behind you 'cause we know that you studied basket weaving. >> I was actually a physics math major, so. >> Good man. Another math major. All right, Bob O'Donnell, you're going to bring us home. I mean, we've seen the importance of semiconductors and silicon in our everyday lives, but your last thoughts please. >> Sure and just to clarify, by the way I was a great books major and this was actually for my final paper. And so I was like philosophy and all that kind of stuff and literature but I still somehow got into tech. Look, it's been a great conversation and I want to pick up a little bit on a comment Zeus made, which is this it's the combination of the hardware and the software and coming together and the manner with which that needs to happen, I think is critically important. And the other thing is because of the diversity of the chip architectures and all those different pieces and elements, it's going to be how software tools evolve to adapt to that new world. So I look at things like what Intel's trying to do with oneAPI. You know, what Nvidia has done with CUDA. What other platform companies are trying to create tools that allow them to leverage the hardware, but also embrace the variety of hardware that is there. And so as those software development environments and software development tools evolve to take advantage of these new capabilities, that's going to open up a lot of interesting opportunities that can leverage all these new chip architectures. That can leverage all these new interconnects. That can leverage all these new system architectures and figure out ways to make that all happen, I think is going to be critically important. And then finally, I'll mention the research I'm actually currently working on is on private 5g and how companies are thinking about deploying private 5g and the potential for edge applications for that. So I'm doing a survey of several hundred us companies as we speak and really looking forward to getting that done in the next couple of weeks. >> Yeah, look forward to that. Guys, again, thank you so much. Outstanding conversation. Anybody going to be at Dell tech world in a couple of weeks? Bob's going to be there. Dave Nicholson. Well drinks on me and guys I really can't thank you enough for the insights and your participation today. Really appreciate it. Okay, and thank you for watching this special power panel episode of theCube Insights powered by ETR. Remember we publish each week on Siliconangle.com and wikibon.com. All these episodes they're available as podcasts. DM me or any of these guys. I'm at DVellante. You can email me at David.Vellante@siliconangle.com. Check out etr.ai for all the data. This is Dave Vellante. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE in ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> The introduction in socialization of data mesh has caused practitioners, business technology executives, and technologists to pause, and ask some probing questions about the organization of their data teams, their data strategies, future investments, and their current architectural approaches. Some in the technology community have embraced the concept, others have twisted the definition, while still others remain oblivious to the momentum building around data mesh. Here we are in the early days of data mesh adoption. Organizations that have taken the plunge will tell you that aligning stakeholders is a non-trivial effort, but necessary to break through the limitations that monolithic data architectures and highly specialized teams have imposed over frustrated business and domain leaders. However, practical data mesh examples often lie in the eyes of the implementer, and may not strictly adhere to the principles of data mesh. Now, part of the problem is lack of open technologies and standards that can accelerate adoption and reduce friction, and that's what we're going to talk about today. Some of the key technology and architecture questions around data mesh. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR, and in this Breaking Analysis, we welcome back the founder of data mesh and director of Emerging Technologies at Thoughtworks, Zhamak Dehghani. Hello, Zhamak. Thanks for being here today. >> Hi Dave, thank you for having me back. It's always a delight to connect and have a conversation. Thank you. >> Great, looking forward to it. Okay, so before we get into it in the technology details, I just want to quickly share some data from our friends at ETR. You know, despite the importance of data initiative since the pandemic, CIOs and IT organizations have had to juggle of course, a few other priorities, this is why in the survey data, cyber and cloud computing are rated as two most important priorities. Analytics and machine learning, and AI, which are kind of data topics, still make the top of the list, well ahead of many other categories. And look, a sound data architecture and strategy is fundamental to digital transformations, and much of the past two years, as we've often said, has been like a forced march into digital. So while organizations are moving forward, they really have to think hard about the data architecture decisions that they make, because it's going to impact them, Zhamak, for years to come, isn't it? >> Yes, absolutely. I mean, we are moving really from, slowly moving from reason based logical algorithmic to model based computation and decision making, where we exploit the patterns and signals within the data. So data becomes a very important ingredient, of not only decision making, and analytics and discovering trends, but also the features and applications that we build for the future. So we can't really ignore it, and as we see, some of the existing challenges around getting value from data is not necessarily that no longer is access to computation, is actually access to trustworthy, reliable data at scale. >> Yeah, and you see these domains coming together with the cloud and obviously it has to be secure and trusted, and that's why we're here today talking about data mesh. So let's get into it. Zhamak, first, your new book is out, 'Data Mesh: Delivering Data-Driven Value at Scale' just recently published, so congratulations on getting that done, awesome. Now in a recent presentation, you pulled excerpts from the book and we're going to talk through some of the technology and architectural considerations. Just quickly for the audience, four principles of data mesh. Domain driven ownership, data as product, self-served data platform and federated computational governance. So I want to start with self-serve platform and some of the data that you shared recently. You say that, "Data mesh serves autonomous domain oriented teams versus existing platforms, which serve a centralized team." Can you elaborate? >> Sure. I mean the role of the platform is to lower the cognitive load for domain teams, for people who are focusing on the business outcomes, the technologies that are building the applications, to really lower the cognitive load for them, to be able to work with data. Whether they are building analytics, automated decision making, intelligent modeling. They need to be able to get access to data and use it. So the role of the platform, I guess, just stepping back for a moment is to empower and enable these teams. Data mesh by definition is a scale out model. It's a decentralized model that wants to give autonomy to cross-functional teams. So it is core requires a set of tools that work really well in that decentralized model. When we look at the existing platforms, they try to achieve this similar outcome, right? Lower the cognitive load, give the tools to data practitioners, to manage data at scale because today centralized teams, really their job, the centralized data teams, their job isn't really directly aligned with a one or two or different, you know, business units and business outcomes in terms of getting value from data. Their job is manage the data and make the data available for then those cross-functional teams or business units to use the data. So the platforms they've been given are really centralized around or tuned to work with this structure as a team, structure of centralized team. Although on the surface, it seems that why not? Why can't I use my, you know, cloud storage or computation or data warehouse in a decentralized way? You should be able to, but some changes need to happen to those online platforms. As an example, some cloud providers simply have hard limits on the number of like account storage, storage accounts that you can have. Because they never envisaged you have hundreds of lakes. They envisage one or two, maybe 10 lakes, right. They envisage really centralizing data, not decentralizing data. So I think we see a shift in thinking about enabling autonomous independent teams versus a centralized team. >> So just a follow up if I may, we could be here for a while. But so this assumes that you've sorted out the organizational considerations? That you've defined all the, what a data product is and a sub product. And people will say, of course we use the term monolithic as a pejorative, let's face it. But the data warehouse crowd will say, "Well, that's what data march did. So we got that covered." But Europe... The primest of data mesh, if I understand it is whether it's a data march or a data mart or a data warehouse, or a data lake or whatever, a snowflake warehouse, it's a node on the mesh. Okay. So don't build your organization around the technology, let the technology serve the organization is that-- >> That's a perfect way of putting it, exactly. I mean, for a very long time, when we look at decomposition of complexity, we've looked at decomposition of complexity around technology, right? So we have technology and that's maybe a good segue to actually the next item on that list that we looked at. Oh, I need to decompose based on whether I want to have access to raw data and put it on the lake. Whether I want to have access to model data and put it on the warehouse. You know I need to have a team in the middle to move the data around. And then try to figure organization into that model. So data mesh really inverses that, and as you said, is look at the organizational structure first. Then scale boundaries around which your organization and operation can scale. And then the second layer look at the technology and how you decompose it. >> Okay. So let's go to that next point and talk about how you serve and manage autonomous interoperable data products. Where code, data policy you say is treated as one unit. Whereas your contention is existing platforms of course have independent management and dashboards for catalogs or storage, et cetera. Maybe we double click on that a bit. >> Yeah. So if you think about that functional, or technical decomposition, right? Of concerns, that's one way, that's a very valid way of decomposing, complexity and concerns. And then build solutions, independent solutions to address them. That's what we see in the technology landscape today. We will see technologies that are taking care of your management of data, bring your data under some sort of a control and modeling. You'll see technology that moves that data around, will perform various transformations and computations on it. And then you see technology that tries to overlay some level of meaning. Metadata, understandability, discovery was the end policy, right? So that's where your data processing kind of pipeline technologies versus data warehouse, storage, lake technologies, and then the governance come to play. And over time, we decomposed and we compose, right? Deconstruct and reconstruct back this together. But, right now that's where we stand. I think for data mesh really to become a reality, as in independent sources of data and teams can responsibly share data in a way that can be understood right then and there can impose policies, right then when the data gets accessed in that source and in a resilient manner, like in a way that data changes structure of the data or changes to the scheme of the data, doesn't have those downstream down times. We've got to think about this new nucleus or new units of data sharing. And we need to really bring back transformation and governing data and the data itself together around these decentralized nodes on the mesh. So that's another, I guess, deconstruction and reconstruction that needs to happen around the technology to formulate ourselves around the domains. And again the data and the logic of the data itself, the meaning of the data itself. >> Great. Got it. And we're going to talk more about the importance of data sharing and the implications. But the third point deals with how operational, analytical technologies are constructed. You've got an app DevStack, you've got a data stack. You've made the point many times actually that we've contextualized our operational systems, but not our data systems, they remain separate. Maybe you could elaborate on this point. >> Yes. I think this is, again, has a historical background and beginning. For a really long time, applications have dealt with features and the logic of running the business and encapsulating the data and the state that they need to run that feature or run that business function. And then we had for anything analytical driven, which required access data across these applications and across the longer dimension of time around different subjects within the organization. This analytical data, we had made a decision that, "Okay, let's leave those applications aside. Let's leave those databases aside. We'll extract the data out and we'll load it, or we'll transform it and put it under the analytical kind of a data stack and then downstream from it, we will have analytical data users, the data analysts, the data sciences and the, you know, the portfolio of users that are growing use that data stack. And that led to this really separation of dual stack with point to point integration. So applications went down the path of transactional databases or urban document store, but using APIs for communicating and then we've gone to, you know, lake storage or data warehouse on the other side. If we are moving and that again, enforces the silo of data versus app, right? So if we are moving to the world that our missions that are ambitions around making applications, more intelligent. Making them data driven. These two worlds need to come closer. As in ML Analytics gets embedded into those app applications themselves. And the data sharing, as a very essential ingredient of that, gets embedded and gets closer, becomes closer to those applications. So, if you are looking at this now cross-functional, app data, based team, right? Business team, then the technology stacks can't be so segregated, right? There has to be a continuum of experience from app delivery, to sharing of the data, to using that data, to embed models back into those applications. And that continuum of experience requires well integrated technologies. I'll give you an example, which actually in some sense, we are somewhat moving to that direction. But if we are talking about data sharing or data modeling and applications use one set of APIs, you know, HTTP compliant, GraQL or RAC APIs. And on the other hand, you have proprietary SQL, like connect to my database and run SQL. Like those are very two different models of representing and accessing data. So we kind of have to harmonize or integrate those two worlds a bit more closely to achieve that domain oriented cross-functional teams. >> Yeah. We are going to talk about some of the gaps later and actually you look at them as opportunities, more than barriers. But they are barriers, but they're opportunities for more innovation. Let's go on to the fourth one. The next point, it deals with the roles that the platform serves. Data mesh proposes that domain experts own the data and take responsibility for it end to end and are served by the technology. Kind of, we referenced that before. Whereas your contention is that today, data systems are really designed for specialists. I think you use the term hyper specialists a lot. I love that term. And the generalist are kind of passive bystanders waiting in line for the technical teams to serve them. >> Yes. I mean, if you think about the, again, the intention behind data mesh was creating a responsible data sharing model that scales out. And I challenge any organization that has a scaled ambitions around data or usage of data that relies on small pockets of very expensive specialists resources, right? So we have no choice, but upscaling cross-scaling. The majority population of our technologists, we often call them generalists, right? That's a short hand for people that can really move from one technology to another technology. Sometimes we call them pandric people sometimes we call them T-shaped people. But regardless, like we need to have ability to really mobilize our generalists. And we had to do that at Thoughtworks. We serve a lot of our clients and like many other organizations, we are also challenged with hiring specialists. So we have tested the model of having a few specialists, really conveying and translating the knowledge to generalists and bring them forward. And of course, platform is a big enabler of that. Like what is the language of using the technology? What are the APIs that delight that generalist experience? This doesn't mean no code, low code. We have to throw away in to good engineering practices. And I think good software engineering practices remain to exist. Of course, they get adopted to the world of data to build resilient you know, sustainable solutions, but specialty, especially around kind of proprietary technology is going to be a hard one to scale. >> Okay. I'm definitely going to come back and pick your brain on that one. And, you know, your point about scale out in the examples, the practical examples of companies that have implemented data mesh that I've talked to. I think in all cases, you know, there's only a handful that I've really gone deep with, but it was their hadoop instances, their clusters wouldn't scale, they couldn't scale the business and around it. So that's really a key point of a common pattern that we've seen now. I think in all cases, they went to like the data lake model and AWS. And so that maybe has some violation of the principles, but we'll come back to that. But so let me go on to the next one. Of course, data mesh leans heavily, toward this concept of decentralization, to support domain ownership over the centralized approaches. And we certainly see this, the public cloud players, database companies as key actors here with very large install bases, pushing a centralized approach. So I guess my question is, how realistic is this next point where you have decentralized technologies ruling the roost? >> I think if you look at the history of places, in our industry where decentralization has succeeded, they heavily relied on standardization of connectivity with, you know, across different components of technology. And I think right now you are right. The way we get value from data relies on collection. At the end of the day, collection of data. Whether you have a deep learning machinery model that you're training, or you have, you know, reports to generate. Regardless, the model is bring your data to a place that you can collect it, so that we can use it. And that leads to a naturally set of technologies that try to operate as a full stack integrated proprietary with no intention of, you know, opening, data for sharing. Now, conversely, if you think about internet itself, web itself, microservices, even at the enterprise level, not at the planetary level, they succeeded as decentralized technologies to a large degree because of their emphasis on open net and openness and sharing, right. API sharing. We don't talk about, in the API worlds, like we don't say, you know, "I will build a platform to manage your logical applications." Maybe to a degree but we actually moved away from that. We say, "I'll build a platform that opens around applications to manage your APIs, manage your interfaces." Right? Give you access to API. So I think the shift needs to... That definition of decentralized there means really composable, open pieces of the technology that can play nicely with each other, rather than a full stack, all have control of your data yet being somewhat decentralized within the boundary of my platform. That's just simply not going to scale if data needs to come from different platforms, different locations, different geographical locations, it needs to rethink. >> Okay, thank you. And then the final point is, is data mesh favors technologies that are domain agnostic versus those that are domain aware. And I wonder if you could help me square the circle cause it's nuanced and I'm kind of a 100 level student of your work. But you have said for example, that the data teams lack context of the domain and so help us understand what you mean here in this case. >> Sure. Absolutely. So as you said, we want to take... Data mesh tries to give autonomy and decision making power and responsibility to people that have the context of those domains, right? The people that are really familiar with different business domains and naturally the data that that domain needs, or that naturally the data that domains shares. So if the intention of the platform is really to give the power to people with most relevant and timely context, the platform itself naturally becomes as a shared component, becomes domain agnostic to a large degree. Of course those domains can still... The platform is a (chuckles) fairly overloaded world. As in, if you think about it as a set of technology that abstracts complexity and allows building the next level solutions on top, those domains may have their own set of platforms that are very much doing agnostic. But as a generalized shareable set of technologies or tools that allows us share data. So that piece of technology needs to relinquish the knowledge of the context to the domain teams and actually becomes domain agnostic. >> Got it. Okay. Makes sense. All right. Let's shift gears here. Talk about some of the gaps and some of the standards that are needed. You and I have talked about this a little bit before, but this digs deeper. What types of standards are needed? Maybe you could walk us through this graphic, please. >> Sure. So what I'm trying to depict here is that if we imagine a world that data can be shared from many different locations, for a variety of analytical use cases, naturally the boundary of what we call a node on the mesh will encapsulates internally a fair few pieces. It's not just the boundary of that, not on the mesh, is the data itself that it's controlling and updating and maintaining. It's of course a computation and the code that's responsible for that data. And then the policies that continue to govern that data as long as that data exists. So if that's the boundary, then if we shift that focus from implementation details, that we can leave that for later, what becomes really important is the scene or the APIs and interfaces that this node exposes. And I think that's where the work that needs to be done and the standards that are missing. And we want the scene and those interfaces be open because that allows, you know, different organizations with different boundaries of trust to share data. Not only to share data to kind of move that data to yes, another location, to share the data in a way that distributed workloads, distributed analytics, distributed machine learning model can happen on the data where it is. So if you follow that line of thinking around the centralization and connection of data versus collection of data, I think the very, very important piece of it that needs really deep thinking, and I don't claim that I have done that, is how do we share data responsibly and sustainably, right? That is not brittle. If you think about it today, the ways we share data, one of the very common ways is around, I'll give you a JDC endpoint, or I give you an endpoint to your, you know, database of choice. And now as technology, whereas a user actually, you can now have access to the schema of the underlying data and then run various queries or SQL queries on it. That's very simple and easy to get started with. That's why SQL is an evergreen, you know, standard or semi standard, pseudo standard that we all use. But it's also very brittle, because we are dependent on a underlying schema and formatting of the data that's been designed to tell the computer how to store and manage the data. So I think that the data sharing APIs of the future really need to think about removing this brittle dependencies, think about sharing, not only the data, but what we call metadata, I suppose. Additional set of characteristics that is always shared along with data to make the data usage, I suppose ethical and also friendly for the users and also, I think we have to... That data sharing API, the other element of it, is to allow kind of computation to run where the data exists. So if you think about SQL again, as a simple primitive example of computation, when we select and when we filter and when we join, the computation is happening on that data. So maybe there is a next level of articulating, distributed computational data that simply trains models, right? Your language primitives change in a way to allow sophisticated analytical workloads run on the data more responsibly with policies and access control and force. So I think that output port that I mentioned simply is about next generation data sharing, responsible data sharing APIs. Suitable for decentralized analytical workloads. >> So I'm not trying to bait you here, but I have a follow up as well. So you schema, for all its good creates constraints. No schema on right, that didn't work, cause it was just a free for all and it created the data swamps. But now you have technology companies trying to solve that problem. Take Snowflake for example, you know, enabling, data sharing. But it is within its proprietary environment. Certainly Databricks doing something, you know, trying to come at it from its angle, bringing some of the best to data warehouse, with the data science. Is your contention that those remain sort of proprietary and defacto standards? And then what we need is more open standards? Maybe you could comment. >> Sure. I think the two points one is, as you mentioned. Open standards that allow... Actually make the underlying platform invisible. I mean my litmus test for a technology provider to say, "I'm a data mesh," (laughs) kind of compliant is, "Is your platform invisible?" As in, can I replace it with another and yet get the similar data sharing experience that I need? So part of it is that. Part of it is open standards, they're not really proprietary. The other angle for kind of sharing data across different platforms so that you know, we don't get stuck with one technology or another is around APIs. It is around code that is protecting that internal schema. So where we are on the curve of evolution of technology, right now we are exposing the internal structure of the data. That is designed to optimize certain modes of access. We're exposing that to the end client and application APIs, right? So the APIs that use the data today are very much aware that this database was optimized for machine learning workloads. Hence you will deal with a columnar storage of the file versus this other API is optimized for a very different, report type access, relational access and is optimized around roles. I think that should become irrelevant in the API sharing of the future. Because as a user, I shouldn't care how this data is internally optimized, right? The language primitive that I'm using should be really agnostic to the machine optimization underneath that. And if we did that, perhaps this war between warehouse or lake or the other will become actually irrelevant. So we're optimizing for that human best human experience, as opposed to the best machine experience. We still have to do that but we have to make that invisible. Make that an implementation concern. So that's another angle of what should... If we daydream together, the best experience and resilient experience in terms of data usage than these APIs with diagnostics to the internal storage structure. >> Great, thank you for that. We've wrapped our ankles now on the controversy, so we might as well wade all the way in, I can't let you go without addressing some of this. Which you've catalyzed, which I, by the way, I see as a sign of progress. So this gentleman, Paul Andrew is an architect and he gave a presentation I think last night. And he teased it as quote, "The theory from Zhamak Dehghani versus the practical experience of a technical architect, AKA me," meaning him. And Zhamak, you were quick to shoot back that data mesh is not theory, it's based on practice. And some practices are experimental. Some are more baked and data mesh really avoids by design, the specificity of vendor or technology. Perhaps you intend to frame your post as a technology or vendor specific, specific implementation. So touche, that was excellent. (Zhamak laughs) Now you don't need me to defend you, but I will anyway. You spent 14 plus years as a software engineer and the better part of a decade consulting with some of the most technically advanced companies in the world. But I'm going to push you a little bit here and say, some of this tension is of your own making because you purposefully don't talk about technologies and vendors. Sometimes doing so it's instructive for us neophytes. So, why don't you ever like use specific examples of technology for frames of reference? >> Yes. My role is pushes to the next level. So, you know everybody picks their fights, pick their battles. My role in this battle is to push us to think beyond what's available today. Of course, that's my public persona. On a day to day basis, actually I work with clients and existing technology and I think at Thoughtworks we have given the talk we gave a case study talk with a colleague of mine and I intentionally got him to talk about (indistinct) I want to talk about the technology that we use to implement data mesh. And the reason I haven't really embraced, in my conversations, the specific technology. One is, I feel the technology solutions we're using today are still not ready for the vision. I mean, we have to be in this transitional step, no matter what we have to be pragmatic, of course, and practical, I suppose. And use the existing vendors that exist and I wholeheartedly embrace that, but that's just not my role, to show that. I've gone through this transformation once before in my life. When microservices happened, we were building microservices like architectures with technology that wasn't ready for it. Big application, web application servers that were designed to run these giant monolithic applications. And now we're trying to run little microservices onto them. And the tail was riding the dock, the environmental complexity of running these services was consuming so much of our effort that we couldn't really pay attention to that business logic, the business value. And that's where we are today. The complexity of integrating existing technologies is really overwhelmingly, capturing a lot of our attention and cost and effort, money and effort as opposed to really focusing on the data product themselves. So it's just that's the role I have, but it doesn't mean that, you know, we have to rebuild the world. We've got to do with what we have in this transitional phase until the new generation, I guess, technologies come around and reshape our landscape of tools. >> Well, impressive public discipline. Your point about microservice is interesting because a lot of those early microservices, weren't so micro and for the naysayers look past this, not prologue, but Thoughtworks was really early on in the whole concept of microservices. So be very excited to see how this plays out. But now there was some other good comments. There was one from a gentleman who said the most interesting aspects of data mesh are organizational. And that's how my colleague Sanji Mohan frames data mesh versus data fabric. You know, I'm not sure, I think we've sort of scratched the surface today that data today, data mesh is more. And I still think data fabric is what NetApp defined as software defined storage infrastructure that can serve on-prem and public cloud workloads back whatever, 2016. But the point you make in the thread that we're showing you here is that you're warning, and you referenced this earlier, that the segregating different modes of access will lead to fragmentation. And we don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past. >> Yes, there are comments around. Again going back to that original conversation that we have got this at a macro level. We've got this tendency to decompose complexity based on technical solutions. And, you know, the conversation could be, "Oh, I do batch or you do a stream and we are different."' They create these bifurcations in our decisions based on the technology where I do events and you do tables, right? So that sort of segregation of modes of access causes accidental complexity that we keep dealing with. Because every time in this tree, you create a new branch, you create new kind of new set of tools and then somehow need to be point to point integrated. You create new specialization around that. So the least number of branches that we have, and think about really about the continuum of experiences that we need to create and technologies that simplify, that continuum experience. So one of the things, for example, give you a past experience. I was really excited around the papers and the work that came around on Apache Beam, and generally flow based programming and stream processing. Because basically they were saying whether you are doing batch or whether you're doing streaming, it's all one stream. And sometimes the window of time, narrows and sometimes the window of time over which you're computing, widens and at the end of today, is you are just getting... Doing the stream processing. So it is those sort of notions that simplify and create continuum of experience. I think resonate with me personally, more than creating these tribal fights of this type versus that mode of access. So that's why data mesh naturally selects kind of this multimodal access to support end users, right? The persona of end users. >> Okay. So the last topic I want to hit, this whole discussion, the topic of data mesh it's highly nuanced, it's new, and people are going to shoehorn data mesh into their respective views of the world. And we talked about lake houses and there's three buckets. And of course, the gentleman from LinkedIn with Azure, Microsoft has a data mesh community. See you're going to have to enlist some serious army of enforcers to adjudicate. And I wrote some of the stuff down. I mean, it's interesting. Monte Carlo has a data mesh calculator. Starburst is leaning in, chaos. Search sees themselves as an enabler. Oracle and Snowflake both use the term data mesh. And then of course you've got big practitioners J-P-M-C, we've talked to Intuit, Orlando, HelloFresh has been on, Netflix has this event based sort of streaming implementation. So my question is, how realistic is it that the clarity of your vision can be implemented and not polluted by really rich technology companies and others? (Zhamak laughs) >> Is it even possible, right? Is it even possible? That's a yes. That's why I practice then. This is why I should practice things. Cause I think, it's going to be hard. What I'm hopeful, is that the socio-technical, Leveling Data mentioned that this is a socio-technical concern or solution, not just a technology solution. Hopefully always brings us back to, you know, the reality that vendors try to sell you safe oil that solves all of your problems. (chuckles) All of your data mesh problems. It's just going to cause more problem down the track. So we'll see, time will tell Dave and I count on you as one of those members of, (laughs) you know, folks that will continue to share their platform. To go back to the roots, as why in the first place? I mean, I dedicated a whole part of the book to 'Why?' Because we get, as you said, we get carried away with vendors and technology solution try to ride a wave. And in that story, we forget the reason for which we even making this change and we are going to spend all of this resources. So hopefully we can always come back to that. >> Yeah. And I think we can. I think you have really given this some deep thought and as we pointed out, this was based on practical knowledge and experience. And look, we've been trying to solve this data problem for a long, long time. You've not only articulated it well, but you've come up with solutions. So Zhamak, thank you so much. We're going to leave it there and I'd love to have you back. >> Thank you for the conversation. I really enjoyed it. And thank you for sharing your platform to talk about data mesh. >> Yeah, you bet. All right. And I want to thank my colleague, Stephanie Chan, who helps research topics for us. Alex Myerson is on production and Kristen Martin, Cheryl Knight and Rob Hoff on editorial. Remember all these episodes are available as podcasts, wherever you listen. And all you got to do is search Breaking Analysis Podcast. Check out ETR's website at etr.ai for all the data. And we publish a full report every week on wikibon.com, siliconangle.com. You can reach me by email david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @dvellante. Hit us up on our LinkedIn post. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. (bright music)

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante data mesh is a new way of thinking about how to use data to create organizational value leading edge practitioners are beginning to implement data mesh in earnest and importantly data mesh is not a single tool or a rigid reference architecture if you will rather it's an architectural and organizational model that's really designed to address the shortcomings of decades of data challenges and failures many of which we've talked about on the cube as important by the way it's a new way to think about how to leverage data at scale across an organization and across ecosystems data mesh in our view will become the defining paradigm for the next generation of data excellence hello and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we welcome the founder and creator of data mesh author thought leader technologist jamaak dagani shamak thank you for joining us today good to see you hi dave it's great to be here all right real quick let's talk about what we're going to cover i'll introduce or reintroduce you to jamaac she joined us earlier this year in our cube on cloud program she's the director of emerging tech at dot works north america and a thought leader practitioner software engineer architect and a passionate advocate for decentralized technology solutions and and data architectures and jamaa since we last had you on as a guest which was less than a year ago i think you've written two books in your spare time one on data mesh and another called software architecture the hard parts both published by o'reilly so how are you you've been busy i've been busy yes um good it's been a great year it's been a busy year i'm looking forward to the end of the year and the end of these two books but it's great to be back and um speaking with you well you got to be pleased with the the momentum that data mesh has and let's just jump back to the agenda for a bit and get that out of the way we're going to set the stage by sharing some etr data our partner our data partner on the spending profile and some of the key data sectors and then we're going to review the four key principles of data mesh just it's always worthwhile to sort of set that framework we'll talk a little bit about some of the dependencies and the data flows and we're really going to dig today into principle number three and a bit around the self-service data platforms and to that end we're going to talk about some of the learnings that shamak has captured since she embarked on the datamess journey with her colleagues and her clients and we specifically want to talk about some of the successful models for building the data mesh experience and then we're going to hit on some practical advice and we'll wrap with some thought exercises maybe a little tongue-in-cheek some of the community questions that we get so the first thing i want to do we'll just get this out of the way is introduce the spending climate we use this xy chart to do this we do this all the time it shows the spending profiles and the etr data set for some of the more data related sectors of the ecr etr taxonomy they they dropped their october data last friday so i'm using the july survey here we'll get into the october survey in future weeks but about 1500 respondents i don't see a dramatic change coming in the october survey but the the y-axis is net score or spending momentum the horizontal axis is market share or presence in the data set and that red line that 40 percent anything over that we consider elevated so for the past eight quarters or so we've seen machine learning slash ai rpa containers and cloud is the four areas where cios and technology buyers have shown the highest net scores and as we've said what's so impressive for cloud is it's both pervasive and it shows high velocity from a spending standpoint and we plotted the three other data related areas database edw analytics bi and big data and storage the first two well under the red line are still elevated the storage market continues to kind of plot along and we've we've plotted the outsourced it just to balance it out for context that's an area that's not so hot right now so i just want to point out that these areas ai automation containers and cloud they're all relevant to data and they're fundamental building blocks of data architectures as are the two that are directly related to data database and analytics and of course storage so it just gives you a picture of the spending sector so i wanted to share this slide jamark uh that that we presented in that you presented in your webinar i love this it's a taxonomy put together by matt turk who's a vc and he called this the the mad landscape machine learning and ai and data and jamock the key point here is there's no lack of tooling you've you've made the the data mesh concept sort of tools agnostic it's not like we need more tools to succeed in data mesh right absolutely great i think we have plenty of tools i think what's missing is a meta architecture that defines the landscape in a way that it's in step with organizational growth and then defines that meta architecture in a way that these tools can actually interoperable and to operate and integrate really well like the the clients right now have a lot of challenges in terms of picking the right tool regardless of the technology they go down the path either they have to go in and big you know bite into a big data solution and then try to fit the other integrated solutions around it or as you see go to that menu of large list of applications and spend a lot of time trying to kind of integrate and stitch this tooling together so i'm hoping that data mesh creates that kind of meta architecture for tools to interoperate and plug in and i think our conversation today around self-subjective platform um hopefully eliminate that yeah we'll definitely circle back because that's one of the questions we get all the time from the community okay let's review the four main principles of data mesh for those who might not be familiar with it and those who are it's worth reviewing jamar allow me to introduce them and then we can discuss a bit so a big frustration i hear constantly from practitioners is that the data teams don't have domain context the data team is separated from the lines of business and as a result they have to constantly context switch and as such there's a lack of alignment so principle number one is focused on putting end-to-end data ownership in the hands of the domain or what i would call the business lines the second principle is data as a product which does cause people's brains to hurt sometimes but it's a key component and if you start sort of thinking about it you'll and talking to people who have done it it actually makes a lot of sense and this leads to principle number three which is a self-serve data infrastructure which we're going to drill into quite a bit today and then the question we always get is when we introduce data meshes how to enforce governance in a federated model so let me bring up a more detailed slide jamar with the dependencies and ask you to comment please sure but as you said the the really the root cause we're trying to address is the siloing of the data external to where the action happens where the data gets produced where the data needs to be shared when the data gets used right in the context of the business so it's about the the really the root cause of the centralization gets addressed by distribution of the accountability end to end back to the domains and these domains this distribution of accountability technical accountability to the domains have already happened in the last you know decade or so we saw the transition from you know one general i.t addressing all of the needs of the organization to technology groups within the itu or even outside of the iit aligning themselves to build applications and services that the different business units need so what data mesh does it just extends that model and say okay we're aligning business with the tech and data now right so both application of the data in ml or inside generation in the domains related to the domain's needs as well as sharing the data that the domains are generating with the rest of the organization but the moment you do that then you have to solve other problems that may arise and that you know gives birth to the second principle which is about um data as a product as a way of preventing data siloing happening within the domain so changing the focus of the domains that are now producing data from i'm just going to create that data i collect for myself and that satisfy my needs to in fact the responsibility of domain is to share the data as a product with all of the you know wonderful characteristics that a product has and i think that leads to really interesting architectural and technical implications of what actually constitutes state has a product and we can have a separate conversation but once you do that then that's the point in the conversation that cio says well how do i even manage the cost of operation if i decentralize you know building and sharing data to my technical teams to my application teams do i need to go and hire another hundred data engineers and i think that's the role of a self-serve data platform in a way that it enables and empowers generalist technologies that we already have in the technical domains the the majority population of our developers these days right so the data platform attempts to mobilize the generalist technologies to become data producers to become data consumers and really rethink what tools these people need um and the last last principle so data platform is really to giving autonomy to domain teams and empowering them and reducing the cost of ownership of the data products and finally as you mentioned the question around how do i still assure that these different data products are interoperable are secure you know respecting privacy now in a decentralized fashion right when we are respecting the sovereignty or the domain ownership of um each domain and that leads to uh this idea of both from operational model um you know applying some sort of a federation where the domain owners are accountable for interoperability of their data product they have incentives that are aligned with global harmony of the data mesh as well as from the technology perspective thinking about this data is a product with a new lens with a lens that all of those policies that need to be respected by these data products such as privacy such as confidentiality can we encode these policies as computational executable units and encode them in every data product so that um we get automation we get governance through automation so that's uh those that's the relationship the complex relationship between the four principles yeah thank you for that i mean it's just a couple of points there's so many important points in there but the idea of the silos and the data as a product sort of breaking down those cells because if you have a product and you want to sell more of it you make it discoverable and you know as a p l manager you put it out there you want to share it as opposed to hide it and then you know this idea of managing the cost you know number three where people say well centralize and and you can be more efficient but that but that essentially was the the failure in your other point related point is generalist versus specialist that's kind of one of the failures of hadoop was you had these hyper specialist roles emerge and and so you couldn't scale and so let's talk about the goals of data mesh for a moment you've said that the objective is to extend exchange you call it a new unit of value between data producers and data consumers and that unit of value is a data product and you've stated that a goal is to lower the cognitive load on our brains i love this and simplify the way in which data are presented to both producers and consumers and doing so in a self-serve manner that eliminates the tapping on the shoulders or emails or raising tickets so how you know i'm trying to understand how data should be used etc so please explain why this is so important and how you've seen organizations reduce the friction across the data flows and the interconnectedness of things like data products across the company yeah i mean this is important um as you mentioned you know initially when this whole idea of a data-driven innovation came to exist and we needed all sorts of you know technology stacks we we centralized um creation of the data and usage of the data and that's okay when you first get started with where the expertise and knowledge is not yet diffused and it's only you know the privilege of a very few people in the organization but as we move to a data driven um you know innovation cycle in the organization as we learn how data can unlock new new programs new models of experience new products then it's really really important as you mentioned to get the consumers and producers talk to each other directly without a broker in the middle because even though that having that centralized broker could be a cost-effective model but if you if we include uh the cost of missed opportunity for something that we could have innovated well we missed that opportunity because of months of looking for the right data then that cost parented the cost benefit parameters and formula changes so um so to to have that innovation um really embedded data-driven innovation embedded into every domain every team we need to enable a model where the producer can directly peer-to-peer discover the data uh use it understand it and use it so the litmus test for that would be going from you know a hypothesis that you know as a data scientist i think there is a pattern and there is an insight in um you know in in the customer behavior that if i have access to all of the different informations about the customer all of the different touch points i might be able to discover that pattern and personalize the experience of my customer the liquid stuff is going from that hypothesis to finding all of the different sources be able to understanding and be able to connect them um and then turn them them into you know training of my machine learning and and the rest is i guess known as an intelligent product got it thank you so i i you know a lot of what we do here in breaking it house is we try to curate and then point people to new resources so we will have some additional resources because this this is not superficial uh what you and your colleagues in the community are creating but but so i do want to you know curate some of the other material that you had so if i bring up this next chart the left-hand side is a curated description both sides of your observations of most of the monolithic data platforms they're optimized for control they serve a centralized team that has hyper-specialized roles as we talked about the operational stacks are running running enterprise software they're on kubernetes and the microservices are isolated from let's say the spark clusters you know which are managing the analytical data etc whereas the data mesh proposes much greater autonomy and the management of code and data pipelines and policy as independent entities versus a single unit and you've made this the point that we have to enable generalists to borrow from so many other examples in the in the industry so it's an architecture based on decentralized thinking that can really be applied to any domain really domain agnostic in a way yes and i think if i pick one key point from that diagram is really um or that comparison is the um the the the data platforms or the the platform capabilities need to present a continuous experience from an application developer building an application that generates some data let's say i have an e-commerce application that generates some data to the data product that now presents and shares that data as as temporal immutable facts that can be used for analytics to the data scientist that uses that data to personalize the experience to the deployment of that ml model now back to that e-commerce application so if we really look at this continuous journey um the walls between these separate platforms that we have built needs to come down the platforms underneath that generate you know that support the operational systems versus supported data platforms versus supporting the ml models they need to kind of play really nicely together because as a user i'll probably fall off the cliff every time i go through these stages of this value stream um so then the interoperability of our data solutions and operational solutions need to increase drastically because so far we've got away with running operational systems an application on one end of the organization running and data analytics in another and build a spaghetti pipeline to you know connect them together neither of the ends are happy i hear from data scientists you know data analyst pointing finger at the application developer saying you're not developing your database the right way and application point dipping you're saying my database is for running my application it wasn't designed for sharing analytical data so so we've got to really what data mesh as a mesh tries to do is bring these two world together closer because and then the platform itself has to come closer and turn into a continuous set of you know services and capabilities as opposed to this disjointed big you know isolated stacks very powerful observations there so we want to dig a little bit deeper into the platform uh jamar can have you explain your thinking here because it's everybody always goes to the platform what do i do with the infrastructure what do i do so you've stressed the importance of interfaces the entries to and the exits from the platform and you've said you use a particular parlance to describe it and and this chart kind of shows what you call the planes not layers the planes of the platform it's complicated with a lot of connection points so please explain these planes and how they fit together sure i mean there was a really good point that you started with that um when we think about capabilities or that enables build of application builds of our data products build their analytical solutions usually we jump too quickly to the deep end of the actual implementation of these technologies right do i need to go buy a data catalog or do i need you know some sort of a warehouse storage and what i'm trying to kind of elevate us up and out is to to to force us to think about interfaces and apis the experiences that the platform needs to provide to run this secure safe trustworthy you know performance mesh of data products and if you focus on then the interfaces the implementation underneath can swap out right you can you can swap one for the other over time so that's the purpose of like having those lollipops and focusing and emphasizing okay what is the interface that provides a certain capability like the storage like the data product life cycle management and so on the purpose of the planes the mesh experience playing data product expense utility plan is really giving us a language to classify different set of interfaces and capabilities that play nicely together to provide that cohesive journey of a data product developer data consumer so then the three planes are really around okay at the bottom layer we have a lot of utilities we have that mad mac turks you know kind of mad data tooling chart so we have a lot of utilities right now they they manage workflow management you know they they do um data processing you've got your spark link you've got your storage you've got your lake storage you've got your um time series of storage you've got a lot of tooling at that level but the layer that we kind of need to imagine and build today we don't buy yet as as long as i know is this linger that allows us to uh exchange that um unit of value right to build and manage these data products so so the language and the apis and interface of this product data product experience plan is not oh i need this storage or i need that you know workflow processing is that i have a data product it needs to deliver certain types of data so i need to be able to model my data it needs to as part of this data product i need to write some processing code that keeps this data constantly alive because it's receiving you know upstream let's say user interactions with a website and generating the profile of my user so i need to be able to to write that i need to serve the data i need to keep the data alive and i need to provide a set of slos and guarantees for my data so that good documentation so that some you know someone who comes to data product knows but what's the cadence of refresh what's the retention of the data and a lot of other slos that i need to provide and finally i need to be able to enforce and guarantee certain policies in terms of access control privacy encryption and so on so as a data product developer i just work with this unit a complete autonomous self-contained unit um and the platform should give me ways of provisioning this unit and testing this unit and so on that's why kind of i emphasize on the experience and of course we're not dealing with one or two data product we're dealing with a mesh of data products so at the kind of mesh level experience we need a set of capabilities and interfaces to be able to search the mesh for the right data to be able to explore the knowledge graph that emerges from this interconnection of data products need to be able to observe the mesh for any anomalies did we create one of these giant master data products that all the data goes into and all the data comes out of how we found ourselves the bottlenecks to be able to kind of do those level machine level capabilities we need to have a certain level of apis and interfaces and once we decide and decide what constitutes that to satisfy this mesh experience then we can step back and say okay now what sort of a tool do i need to build or buy to satisfy them and that's that is not what the data community or data part of our organizations used to i think traditionally we're very comfortable with buying a tool and then changing the way we work to serve to serve the tool and this is slightly inverse to that model that we might be comfortable with right and pragmatists will will to tell you people who've implemented data match they'll tell you they spent a lot of time on figuring out data as a product and the definitions there the organizational the getting getting domain experts to actually own the data and and that's and and they will tell you look the technology will come and go and so to your point if you have those lollipops and those interfaces you'll be able to evolve because we know one thing's for sure in this business technology is going to change um so you you had some practical advice um and i wanted to discuss that for those that are thinking about data mesh i scraped this slide from your presentation that you made and and by the way we'll put links in there your colleague emily who i believe is a data scientist had some really great points there as well that that practitioners should dig into but you made a couple of points that i'd like you to summarize and to me that you know the big takeaway was it's not a one and done this is not a 60-day project it's a it's a journey and i know that's kind of cliche but it's so very true here yes um this was a few starting points for um people who are embarking on building or buying the platform that enables the people enables the mesh creation so it was it was a bit of a focus on kind of the platform angle and i think the first one is what we just discussed you know instead of thinking about mechanisms that you're building think about the experiences that you're enabling uh identify who are the people like what are the what is the persona of data scientists i mean data scientist has a wide range of personas or did a product developer the same what is the persona i need to develop today or enable empower today what skill sets do they have and and so think about experience as mechanisms i think we are at this really magical point i mean how many times in our lifetime we come across a complete blanks you know kind of white space to a degree to innovate so so let's take that opportunity and use a bit of a creativity while being pragmatic of course we need solutions today or yesterday but but still think about the experiences not not mechanisms that you need to buy so that was kind of the first step and and the nice thing about that is that there is an evolutionary there is an iterative path to maturity of your data mesh i mean if you start with thinking about okay which are the initial use cases i need to enable what are the data products that those use cases depend on that we need to unlock and what is the persona of my or general skill set of my data product developer what are the interfaces i need to enable you can start with the simplest possible platform for your first two use cases and then think about okay the next set of data you know data developers they have a different set of needs maybe today i just enable the sql-like querying of the data tomorrow i enable the data scientists file based access of the data the day after i enable the streaming aspect so so have this evolutionary kind of path ahead of you and don't think that you have to start with building out everything i mean one of the things we've done is taking this harvesting approach that we work collaboratively with those technical cross-functional domains that are building the data products and see how they are using those utilities and harvesting what they are building as the solutions for themselves back into the back into the platform but at the end of the day we have to think about mobilization of the large you know largest population of technologies we have we'd have to think about diffusing the technology and making it available and accessible by the generous technologies that you know and we've come a long way like we've we've gone through these sort of paradigm shifts in terms of mobile development in terms of functional programming in terms of cloud operation it's not that we are we're struggling with learning something new but we have to learn something that works nicely with the rest of the tooling that we have in our you know toolbox right now so so again put that generalist as the uh as one of your center personas not the only person of course we will have specialists of course we will always have data scientists specialists but any problem that can be solved as a general kind of engineering problem and i think there's a lot of aspects of data michigan that can be just a simple engineering problem um let's just approach it that way and then create the tooling um to empower those journalists great thank you so listen i've i've been around a long time and so as an analyst i've seen many waves and we we often say language matters um and so i mean i've seen it with the mainframe language it was different than the pc language it's different than internet different than cloud different than big data et cetera et cetera and so we have to evolve our language and so i was going to throw a couple things out here i often say data is not the new oil because because data doesn't live by the laws of scarcity we're not running out of data but i get the analogy it's powerful it powered the industrial economy but it's it's it's bigger than that what do you what do you feel what do you think when you hear the data is the new oil yeah i don't respond to those data as the gold or oil or whatever scarce resource because as you said it evokes a very different emotion it doesn't evoke the emotion of i want to use this i want to utilize it feels like i need to kind of hide it and collect it and keep it to myself and not share it with anyone it doesn't evoke that emotion of sharing i really do think that data and i with it with a little asterisk and i think the definition of data changes and that's why i keep using the language of data product or data quantum data becomes the um the most important essential element of existence of uh computation what do i mean by that i mean that you know a lot of applications that we have written so far are based on logic imperative logic if this happens do that and else do the other and we're moving to a world where those applications generating data that we then look at and and the data that's generated becomes the source the patterns that we can exploit to build our applications as in you know um curate the weekly playlist for dave every monday based on what he has listened to and the you know other people has listened to based on his you know profile so so we're moving to the world that is not so much about applications using the data necessarily to run their businesses that data is really truly is the foundational building block for the applications of the future and then i think in that we need to rethink the definition of the data and maybe that's for a different conversation but that's that's i really think we have to converge the the processing that the data together the substance substance and the processing together to have a unit that is uh composable reusable trustworthy and that's that's the idea behind the kind of data product as an atomic unit of um what we build from future solutions got it now something else that that i heard you say or read that really struck me because it's another sort of often stated phrase which is data is you know our most valuable asset and and you push back a little bit on that um when you hear people call data and asset people people said often have said they think data should be or will eventually be listed as an asset on the balance sheet and i i in hearing what you said i thought about that i said well you know maybe data as a product that's an income statement thing that's generating revenue or it's cutting costs it's not necessarily because i don't share my my assets with people i don't make them discoverable add some color to this discussion i think so i think it's it's actually interesting you mentioned that because i read the new policy in china that cfos actually have a line item around the data that they capture we don't have to go to the political conversation around authoritarian of um collecting data and the power that that creates and the society that leads to but that aside that big conversation little conversation aside i think you're right i mean the data as an asset generates a different behavior it's um it creates different performance metrics that we would measure i mean before conversation around data mesh came to you know kind of exist we were measuring the success of our data teams by the terabytes of data they were collecting by the thousands of tables that they had you know stamped as golden data none of that leads to necessarily there's no direct line i can see between that and actually the value that data generated but if we invert that so that's why i think it's rather harmful because it leads to the wrong measures metrics to measure for success so if you invert that to a bit of a product thinking or something that you share to delight the experience of users your measures are very different your measures are the the happiness of the user they decrease lead time for them to actually use and get value out of it they're um you know the growth of the population of the users so it evokes a very different uh kind of behavior and success metrics i do say if if i may that i probably come back and regret the choice of word around product one day because of the monetization aspect of it but maybe there is a better word to use but but that's the best i think we can use at this point in time why do you say that jamar because it's too directly related to monetization that has a negative connotation or it might might not apply in things like healthcare or you know i think because if we want to take your shortcuts and i remember this conversation years back that people think that the reason to you know kind of collect data or have data so that we can sell it you know it's just the monetization of the data and we have this idea of the data market places and so on and i think that is actually the least valuable um you know outcome that we can get from thinking about data as a product that direct cell an exchange of data as a monetary you know exchange of value so so i think that might redirect our attention to something that really matters which is um enabling using data for generating ultimately value for people for the customers for the organizations for the partners as opposed to thinking about it as a unit of exchange for for money i love data as a product i think you were your instinct was was right on and i think i'm glad you brought that up because because i think people misunderstood you know in the last decade data as selling data directly but you really what you're talking about is using data as a you know ingredient to actually build a product that has value and value either generate revenue cut costs or help with a mission like it could be saving lives but in some way for a commercial company it's about the bottom line and that's just the way it is so i i love data as a product i think it's going to stick so one of the other things that struck me in one of your webinars was one of the q a one of the questions was can i finally get rid of my data warehouse so i want to talk about the data warehouse the data lake jpmc used that term the data lake which some people don't like i know john furrier my business partner doesn't like that term but the data hub and one of the things i've learned from sort of observing your work is that whether it's a data lake a data warehouse data hub data whatever it's it should be a discoverable node on the mesh it really doesn't matter the the technology what are your your thoughts on that yeah i think the the really shift is from a centralized data warehouse to data warehouse where it fits so i think if you just cross that centralized piece uh we are all in agreement that data warehousing provides you know interesting and capable interesting capabilities that are still required perhaps as a edge node of the mesh that is optimizing for certain queries let's say financial reporting and we still want to direct a fair bit of data into a node that is just for those financial reportings and it requires the precision and the um you know the speed of um operation that the warehouse technology provides so i think um definitely that technology has a place where it falls apart is when you want to have a warehouse to rule you know all of your data and model canonically model your data because um it you have to put so much energy into you know kind of try to harness this model and create this very complex the complex and fragile snowflake schemas and so on that that's all you do you spend energy against the entropy of your organization to try to get your arms around this model and the model is constantly out of step with what's happening in reality because reality the model the reality of the business is moving faster than our ability to model everything into into uh into one you know canonical representation i think that's the one we need to you know challenge not necessarily application of data warehousing on a node i want to close by coming back to the issues of standards um you've specifically envisioned data mesh to be technology agnostic as i said before and of course everyone myself included we're going to run a vendor's technology platform through a data mesh filter the reality is per the matt turc chart we showed earlier there are lots of technologies that that can be nodes within the data mesh or facilitate data sharing or governance etc but there's clearly a lack of standardization i'm sometimes skeptical that the vendor community will drive this but maybe like you know kubernetes you know google or some other internet giant is going to contribute something to open source that addresses this problem but talk a little bit more about your thoughts on standardization what kinds of standards are needed and where do you think they'll come from sure i mean the you write that the vendors are not today incentivized to create those open standards because majority of the vet not all of them but some vendors operational model is about bring your data to my platform and then bring your computation to me uh and all will be great and and that will be great for a portion of the clients and portion of environments where that complexity we're talking about doesn't exist so so we need yes other players perhaps maybe um some of the cloud providers or people that are more incentivized to open um open their platform in a way for data sharing so as a starting point i think standardization around data sharing so if you look at the spectrum right now we have um a de facto sound it's not even a standard for something like sql i mean everybody's bastardized to call and extended it with so many things that i don't even know what this standard sql is anymore but we have that for some form of a querying but beyond that i know for example folks at databricks to start to create some standards around delta sharing and sharing the data in different models so i think data sharing as a concept the same way that apis were about capability sharing so we need to have the data apis or analytical data apis and data sharing extended to go beyond simply sql or languages like that i think we need standards around computational prior policies so this is again something that is formulating in the operational world we have a few standards around how do you articulate access control how do you identify the agents who are trying to access with different authentication mechanism we need to bring some of those our ad our own you know our data specific um articulation of policies uh some something as simple as uh identity management across different technologies it's non-existent so if you want to secure your data across three different technologies there is no common way of saying who's the agent that is acting uh to act to to access the data can i authenticate and authorize them so so those are some of the very basic building blocks and then the gravy on top would be new standards around enriched kind of semantic modeling of the data so we have a common language to describe the semantic of the data in different nodes and then relationship between them we have prior work with rdf and folks that were focused on i guess linking data across the web with the um kind of the data web i guess work that we had in the past we need to revisit those and see their practicality in the enterprise con context so so data modeling a rich language for data semantic modeling and data connectivity most importantly i think those are some of the items on my wish list that's good well we'll do our part to try to keep the standards you know push that push that uh uh movement jamaica we're going to leave it there i'm so grateful to have you uh come on to the cube really appreciate your time it's just always a pleasure you're such a clear thinker so thanks again thank you dave that's it's wonderful to be here now we're going to post a number of links to some of the great work that jamark and her team and her books and so you check that out because we remember we publish each week on siliconangle.com and wikibon.com and these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen listen to just search breaking analysis podcast don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey data do keep in touch i'm at d vallante follow jamac d z h a m a k d or you can email me at david.velante at siliconangle.com comment on the linkedin post this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etrbwell and we'll see you next time you

(upbeat music) >> Greetings from Los Angeles, Lisa Martin here with Dave Nicholson. We are on day three of the caves wall-to-wall coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon North America 21. We're pleased to welcome Mark Hinkle to the program, the co-founder and CEO of TriggerMesh. Mark welcome. >> Thank you, It's nice to be here. >> Lisa: Love the name. Very interesting TriggerMesh. Talk to us about what TriggerMesh does and what, when you were founded and what some of the gaps were that you saw in the market. >> Yeah, so TriggerMesh actually the Genesis of the name is in, cloud event, driven architecture. You trigger workloads. So that's the trigger and trigger mesh, and then mesh, we mesh services together, so cloud, so that's why we're called TriggerMesh. So we're a cloud native open source integration platform. And the idea is that, the number of cloud services are proliferating. You still have stuff in your data center that you can't decommission and just wholesale lift and shift to the cloud. So we wanted to provide a platform to create workflows from the data center, to the cloud, from cloud to cloud and not, and use all the cloud native design principles, but not leave your past behind. So that's, what we do. We're, very, we were cloud, we are cloud operators and developers, and we wanted the experience to be very similar to the way that DevOps folks are doing infrastructure code and deploying that we want to make it easy to do integration as code. So we follow the same design patterns, use the same domain languages, some of those tools like Hashi corpse, Terraform, and that that's what we do and how we go about doing it. >> Lisa: And when were you guys founded? >> September, 2018. >> Oh so your young, your three years young. >> Three years it's feels like 21 >> I bet. >> And startup years it's a lot has happened, but yeah, we my co-founder and I were former early cloud folks. We were at cloud.com worked through the OpenStack years and the CloudStack, and we just saw the pattern of, abstraction coming about. So first you abstract the hardware, then you abstract the operating system. And now at with the Kubernetes container, you know, evolution, you're abstracting it up to the application layer and we want it to be able to provide tooling that lets you take full advantage of that. >> Dave: So being founded in 2018, what's your perception of that? The shift that happened during the pandemic in terms of the drive towards cloud adoption and the demands for services like you provide? >> Mark: Yeah, I think it's a mixed blessing. So we, people became more remote. They needed to enable digital transformation. Biggest thing, I think that that for us is, you know, you don't go to the bank anymore. And the banking industry is doing, you know, exponentially more remote, online transactions than in person. And it's very important. So we decided that financial services is where we were going to start with first because they have a lot of legacy architecture. They have a lot of need to move to the cloud to have better digital experiences. And we wanted to enable them to, you know, keep their mainframes online while they were still doing cutting edge, you know, mobile applications, that kind of thing. >> Lisa: And of course the legacy institutions like the BFA's the Wells Fargo, they're competing with the fintechs who are much more nimble, much more agile and able to sort of disrupt the financial services industry. Was that part of also your decision to start in financial services? >> It was a little bit of luck because we started with our network and it turned out the, you know, we saw, we started talking to our friends early on, cause we're a startup and said, this is what we're going to do. And where it really resonated was PNC bank was our, one of our first customers. You know, another financial regulatory company was another one, a couple of banks in Europe. And we, you know, as we started talking about what we were doing, that we just gravitated there because they had the, the biggest need, even though everybody has the need, their businesses are, you know, critically tied to digital transformation. >> So starting with financial services. >> It's, it's counter intuitive, isn't it? >> It was counterintuitive, but it lends credibility to any other industry vertical that you're going to approach. >> Yeah, yeah it does. It's a, it's a great, they're going to be our hardest customers and they have more at stake than a lot of like transactions are millions and millions of dollars per hour for these folks. So they don't want to play around, they, they have no tolerance for failure. So it's a good start, but it's sort of like taking up jogging and running a marathon in your first week. It's very very grilling in that sense, but it really has made us a lot better and gave us a lot of insight into the kinds of things we need to do from not just functionality, but security and that kind of thing. >> Where are you finding these customers with respect to adoption of Kubernetes? Are they leading? Are they knowing we've got to get there eventually from an infrastructure perspective? >> So the interesting thing is Kubernetes is a platform for us to deliver on, so we, we don't require you to be a Kubernetes expert we offer it as a SaaS, but what happens is that the Kubernetes folks are the ones that we end up really engaging with earlier on. And I think that we find that they're in this phase of they're containerizing their apps, that's the first step. And then they're putting them on Kubernetes and then their next step is a security and integration path. So once she, I think they call it and this is my buzzword of the show day two operations, right? So they, they get to day two and then they have a security and an integration concern before they go live. So they want to be able to make sure that they don't increase their attack face. And then they also want to make sure that this newly deployed containerized infrastructure is as well integrated as the previous, you know, virtualized or even, you know, on the server infrastructure that they had before. >> So TriggerMesh, doesn't solely work in the containerized world, you're, you're sort of you're bridging the divide. >> Mark: Yes. >> What percentage of the workloads that you're seeing are the result of modernization migration, as opposed to standing up net new application environments in Kubernetes? Do you have a sense for that? >> I think we live in a lot in the brown field. So, you know, folks that have an existing project that they're trying to bridge to it versus the Greenfield kind of, you know, the, the huge wins that you saw in the early cloud days of the Netflix and the Twitter's Dwayne scale. Now we're talking to the enterprises who have, you know, they have existing concerns. So I would say that it's, it's mostly people that are, you know, very few net new projects, unless it's a modernization and they're getting ready to decommission an old one, which is. >> Dave: So Brownfield financial services. You just said, you know, let's just, let's just go after that. >> You know, yeah. I mean, we had this dart forward and we put up buzzwords, but no, it was, it was actually just, and you know, we're still finding our way as far as early on where we're open source folks. And we did not open source from day one, which is very weird when everybody's new, your identity is, you know, I worked, I was the VP of marketing for Linux foundation and no JS and all these open source projects. And my co-founder and I are Apache committers. And our project wasn't open yet because we had to get to the point where it could be open and people could be productive in the use and contribution. And we had to staff up engineers. And now I think this week we open-sourced our entire platform. And I think that's going to open up, you know, that's where we started because it was not necessarily the lowest hanging fruit, but the profitable, less profitable, lowest hanging fruit was financial services. Now we are letting our code out into the wild. And I think it'll be interesting to see what comes back. >> So you just announced that this week TriggerMesh integration platform as an open source project here at KubeCon, what's been some of the feedback? >> It's all been positive. I haven't heard anything negative. We did it, so we're very, very, there's a very, the culture around open source is very tough. It's very critical if you don't do it right. So I think we did a good job, we used enough, we used a OSI approved. They've been sourced, licensed the Apache software, a V2 license. We hired someone who was well-respected in the DevREL world from a chef who understands the DevOps sort of culture methodologies. We staffed up our engineers who are going to be helping the free and open source users. So they're successful and we're betting that that will yield business results down the road. >> Lisa: And what are the two I see on your website, two primary use cases that you guys support. Can you dig into details on that? >> So the first one is sort of a workflow automation and a really simple example of that is you have a, something that happens in one cloud. So for example, you take a picture on your phone and you upload it and it goes to Amazon and there is a service that wants to identify what's in that picture. And once you put it on the line and the internship parlance, you could kick off a workflow from TensorFlow, which is artificial intelligence to identify the picture. And there isn't a good way for clouds to communicate from one to the other, without writing custom blue, which is really what, what we're helping to get rid of is there's a lot of blue written to put together cloud native applications. So that's a workflow, you know, triggering a server less function is the workflow. The other thing is actually breaking up data gravity. So I have a warehouse of data, in my data center, and I want to start replicating some portion of that. As it changes to a database as a service, we can based on an event flow, which is passive. We're not, we're not making, having a conversation like you would with an API where there's an event stream. That's like drinking from the fire hose and TriggerMesh is the nozzle. And we can direct that data to a DBaaS. We can direct that data to snowflake. We can direct that data to a cloud-based data lake on Microsoft Azure, or we can split it up, so some events could go to Splunk and all of the events can go to your data lake or some of those, those things can be used to trigger workloads on other systems. And that event driven architecture is really the design pattern of the individual clouds. We're just making it multi-cloud and on-prem. >> Lisa: Do you have a favorite customer example that you think really articulates that the value of that use case? >> Mark: Yeah I think a PNC is probably our, well for the, for the data flow one, I would say we have a regular to Oracle and one of their customers it was their biggest SMB customer of last year. The Oracle cloud is very, very important, but it's not as tool. It doesn't have the same level of tooling as a lot of the other ones. And to, to close that deal, their regulatory customer wanted to use Datadog. So they have hundreds and hundreds of metrics. And what TriggerMesh did was ingest the hundreds and hundreds of metrics and filter them and connect them to Datadog so that, they could, use Datadog to measure, to monitor workloads on Oracle cloud. So that, would be an example of the data flow on the workflow. PNC bank is, is probably our best example and PNC bank. They want to do. I talked about infrastructure code integration is code. They want to do policy as code. So they're very highly regulatory regulated. And what they used to do is they had policies that they applied against all their systems once a month, to determine how much they were in compliance. Well, theoretically if you do that once a month, it could be 30 days before you knew where you were out of compliance. What we did was, we provided them a way to take all of the changes within their systems and for them to a server less cluster. And they codified all of these policies into server less functions and TriggerMesh is triggering their policies as code. So upon change, they're getting almost real-time updates on whether or not they're in compliance or not. And that's a huge thing. And they're going to, they have, within their first division, we worked with, you know, tens of policies throughout PNC. They have thousands of policies. And so that's really going to revolutionize what they're able to do as far as compliance. And that's a huge use case across the whole banking system. >> That's also a huge business outcome. >> Yes. >> So Mark, where can folks go to learn more about TriggerMesh, maybe even read about more specifically about the announcement that you made this week. >> TriggerMesh.com is the best way to get an overview. The open source project is get hub.com/triggermesh/trigger mesh. >> Awesome Mark, thank you for joining Dave and me talking to us about TriggerMesh, what you guys are doing. The use cases that you're enabling customers. We appreciate your time and we wish you best of luck as you continue to forge into financial services and other industries. >> Thanks, it was great to be here. >> All right. For Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin coming to you live from Los Angeles at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 21, stick around Dave and I, will be right back with our next guest.