>>Hey everybody. Welcome back. Good afternoon. Lisa Martin here with John Feer live in Detroit, Michigan. We are at Coon Cloud Native Con 2020s North America. John Thank is who. This is nearing the end of our second day of coverage and one of the things that has been breaking all day on this show is news. News. We have more news to >>Break next. Yeah, this next segment is a company we've been following. They got some news we're gonna get into. Managing Kubernetes life cycle has been a huge challenge when you've got large organizations, whether you're spinning up and scaling scale is the big story. Kubernetes is the center of the conversation. This next segment's gonna be great. It >>Is. We've got two guests from Specter Cloud here. Please welcome. It's CEO Chenery Fu and co-founder and it's c g a co-founder Sta Mallek. Guys, great to have you on the program. Thank >>You for having us. My pleasure. >>So Timary, what's going on? What's the big news? >>Yeah, so we just announced our Palace three this morning. So we add a bunch, a new functionality. So first of all we have a Nest cluster. So enable enterprise to easily provide Kubernete service even on top of their existing clusters. And secondly, we also support seamlessly migration for their existing cluster. We enable them to be able to migrate their cluster into our CNC for upstream Kubernete distro called Pallet extended Kubernetes, GX K without any downtime. And lastly, we also add a lot of focus on developer experience. Those additional capability enable developer to easily onboard and and deploy the application for. They have test and troubleshooting without, they have to have a steep Kubernetes lending curve. >>So big breaking news this morning, pallet 3.0. So you got the, you got the product. This is a big theme here. Developer productivity, ease of use is the top story here. As developers are gonna increase their code velocity cuz they're under a lot of pressure. This infrastructure's getting smarter. This is a big part of managing it. So the toil is now moving to the ops. Steves are now dev teams. Security, you gotta enable faster deployment of apps and code. This is what you guys solve while you getting this right. Is that, take us through that specific value proposition. What's the, what are the key things on in this news release? Yeah, >>You're exactly right. Right. So we basically provide our solution to platform engineering ship so that they can use our platform to enable Kubernetes service to serve their developers and their application ship. And then in the meantime, the developers will be able to easily use Kubernetes or without, They have to learn a lot of what Kubernetes specific things like. So maybe you can get in some >>Detail. Yeah. And absolutely the detail about it is there's a big separation between what operations team does and the development teams that are using the actual capabilities. The development teams don't necessarily to know the internals of Kubernetes. There's so much complexity when it comes, comes into it. How do I do things like deployment pause manifests just too much. So what our platform does, it makes it really simple for them to say, I have a containerized application, I wanna be able to model it. It's a really simple profile and from there, being able to say, I have a database service. I wanna attach to it. I have a specific service. Go run it behind the scenes. Does it run inside of a Nest cluster? Which we'll talk into a little bit. Does it run into a host cluster? Those are happen transparently for >>The developer. You know what I love about this? What you guys are doing in the news, it really points out what I love about DevOps. Because cloud, let's face a cloud early adopters, we're all the hardcore cloud folks as it goes mainstream. With Kubernetes, you start to see like words like platform engineering. I mean I love that term. That means as a platform, it's been around for a while. For people who are building their own stuff, that means it's gonna scale and enable people to enable value, build on top of it, move faster. This platform engineering is becoming now standard in enterprises. It wasn't like that before. What's your eyes reactions that, How do you see that evolving faster? Or do you believe that or what's your take on >>It? Yeah, so I think it's starting from the DevOps op team, right? That every application team, they all try to deploy and manage their application under their own ING infrastructure. But very soon all these each application team, they start realize they have to repeatedly do the same thing. So these will need to have a platform engineering team to basically bring some of common practice to >>That. >>And some people call them SREs like and that's really platform >>Engineering. It is, it is. I mean, you think about like Esther ability to deploy your applications at scale and monitoring and observability. I think what platform engineering does is codify all those best practices. Everything when it comes about how you monitor the actual applications. How do you do c i CD your backups? Instead of not having every single individual development team figuring how to do it themselves. Platform engineer is saying, why don't we actually build policy that we can provide as a service to different development teams so that they can operate their own applications at scale. >>So launching Pellet 3.0 today, you also had a launch in September, so just a few weeks ago. Talk about what these two announcements mean from Specter Cloud's perspective in terms of proof points, what you're delivering to the end users and the value that they're getting from that. >>Yeah, so our goal is really to help enterprise to deploy and around Kubernetes anywhere, right? Whether it's in cloud data center or even at Edge locations. So in September we also announce our HV two capabilities, which enable very easy deployment of Edge Kubernetes, right at at at any any location, like a retail stores restaurant, so on and so forth. So as you know, at Edge location, there's no cloud endpoint there. It's not easy to directly deploy and manage Kubernetes. And also at Edge location there's not, it's not as secure as as cloud or data center environment. So how to make the end to end system more secure, right? That it's temper proof, that is also very, very important. >>Right. Great, great take there. Thanks for explaining that. I gotta ask cuz I'm curious, what's the secret sauce? Is it nested clusters? What's, what's the core under the hood here on 3.0 that people should know about it's news? It's what's, what's the, what's that post important >>To? To be honest, it's about enabling developer velocity. Now how do you enable developer velocity? It's gonna be able for them to think about deploying applications without worrying about Kubernetes being able to build this application profiles. This NEA cluster that we're talking about enables them, they get access to it in complete cluster within seconds. They're essentially having access to be able to add any operations, any capabilities without having the ability to provision a cluster on inside of infrastructure. Whether it's Amazon, Google, or OnPrem. >>So, and you get the dev engine too, right? That that, that's a self-service provisioning in for environments. Is that, Yeah, >>So the dev engine itself are the capabilities that we offer to developers so that they can build these application profiles. What the application profiles, again they define aspects about, my application is gonna be a container, it's gonna be a database service, it's gonna be a helm chart. They define that entire structure inside of it. From there they can choose to say, I wanna deploy this. The target environment, whether it becomes an actual host cluster or a cluster itself is irrelevant to them. For them it's complete transparent. >>So transparency, enabling developer velocity. What's been some of the feedback so far? >>Oh, all developer love that. And also same for all >>The ops team. If it's easy and goods faster and the steps >>Win-win team. Yeah, Ops team, they need a consistency. They need a governance, they need visibility, but in the meantime, developers, they need the flexibility then theys or without a steep learning curve. So this really, >>So So I hear a lot of people say, I got a lot of sprawl, cluster sprawl. Yeah, let's get outta hand does, let's solve that. How do you guys solve that problem? Yeah, >>So the Neste cluster is a profit answer for that. So before you nest cluster, for a lot of enterprise to serving developers, they have to either create a very large TED cluster and then isolated by namespace, which not ideal for a lot of situation because name stay namespace is not a hard isolation and also a lot of global resource like CID and operator does not work in space. But the other way is you give each developer a separate, a separate ADE cluster, but that very quickly become too costly. Cause not every developer is working for four, seven, and half of the time your, your cluster is is a sit there idol and that costs a lot of money. So you cluster, you'll be able to basically do all these inside the your wholesale cluster, bring the >>Efficiency there. That is huge. Yeah. Saves a lot of time. Reduces the steps it takes. So I take, take a minute, my last question to you to explain what's in it for the developer, if they work with Spec Cloud, what is your value? What's the pitch? Not the sales pitch, but like what's the value pitch that >>You give them? Yeah, yeah. And the value for us is again, develop their number of different services and teams people are using today are so many, there are so many different languages or so many different libraries there so many different capabilities. It's too hard for developers to have to understand not only the internal development tools, but also the Kubernetes, the containers of technologies. There's too much for it. Our value prop is making it really easy for them to get access to all these different integrations and tooling without having to learn it. Right? And then being able to very easily say, I wanna deploy this into a cluster. Again, whether it's a Nest cluster or a host cluster. But the next layer on top of that is how do we also share those abilities with other teams. If I build my application profile, I'm developing an application, I should be able to share it with my team members. But Henry saying, Hey Tanner, why don't you also take a look at my app profile and let's build and collaborate together on that. So it's about collaboration and be able to move >>Really fast. I mean, more develops gotta be more productive. That's number one. Number one hit here. Great job. >>Exactly. Last question before we run out Time. Is this ga now? Can folks get their hands on it where >>Yes. Yeah. It is GA and available both as a, as a SaaS and also the store. >>Awesome guys, thank you so much for joining us. Congratulations on the announcement and the momentum that Specter Cloud is empowering itself with. We appreciate your insights on your time. >>Thank you. Thank you so much. Right, pleasure. >>Thanks for having us. For our guest and John Furrier, Lisa Martin here live in Michigan at Co con Cloud native PON 22. Our next guests join us in just a minute. So stick around.

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone and welcome back to The Cube. We are covering VMware Explore live in San Francisco. This is our third day of wall to wall coverage. And John Furrier is here with me, Lisa Martin. We are excited to welcome two guests from Kasten by Veeam, please welcome Tom Laden, VP of marketing and Matt LeBlanc, not Joey from friends, Matt LeBlanc, the systems engineer from North America at Kasten by Veeam. Welcome guys, great to have you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for having us. >> Tom-- >> Great, go ahead. >> Oh, I was going to say, Tom, talk to us about some of the key challenges customers are coming to you with. >> Key challenges that they have at this point is getting up to speed with Kubernetes. So everybody has it on their list. We want to do Kubernetes, but where are they going to start? Back when VMware came on the market, I was switching from Windows to Mac and I needed to run a Windows application on my Mac and someone told me, "Run a VM." Went to the internet, I downloaded it. And in a half hour I was done. That's not how it works with Kubernetes. So that's a bit of a challenge. >> I mean, Kubernetes, Lisa, remember the early days of The Cube Open Stack was kind of transitioning, Cloud was booming and then Kubernetes was the paper that became the thing that pulled everybody together. It's now de facto in my mind. So that's clear, but there's a lot of different versions of it and you hear VMware, they call it the dial tone. Usually, remember, Pat Gelter, it's a dial tone. Turns out that came from Kit Colbert or no, I think AJ kind of coined the term here, but it's since been there, it's been adopted by everyone. There's different versions. It's open source. AWS is involved. How do you guys look at the relationship with Kubernetes here and VMware Explore with Kubernetes and the customers because they have choices. They can go do it on their own. They can add a little bit with Lambda, Serverless. They can do more here. It's not easy. It's not as easy as people think it is. And then this is a skill gaps problem too. We're seeing a lot of these problems out there. What's your take? >> I'll let Matt talk to that. But what I want to say first is this is also the power of the cloud native ecosystem. The days are gone where companies were selecting one enterprise application and they were building their stack with that. Today they're building applications using dozens, if not hundreds of different components from different vendors or open source platforms. And that is really what creates opportunities for those cloud native developers. So maybe you want to... >> Yeah, we're seeing a lot of hybrid solutions out there. So it's not just choosing one vendor, AKS, EKS, or Tanzu. We're seeing all the above. I had a call this morning with a large healthcare provider and they have a hundred clusters and that's spread across AKS, EKS and GKE. So it is covering everything. Plus the need to have a on-prem solution manage it all. >> I got a stat, I got to share that I want to get your reactions and you can laugh or comment, whatever you want to say. Talk to big CSO, CXO, executive, big company, I won't say the name. We got a thousand developers, a hundred of them have heard of Kubernetes, okay. 10 have touched it and used it and one's good at it. And so his point is that there's a lot of Kubernetes need that people are getting aware. So it shows that there's more and more adoption around. You see a lot of managed services out there. So it's clear it's happening and I'm over exaggerating the ratio probably. But the point is the numbers kind of make sense as a thousand developers. You start to see people getting adoption to it. They're aware of the value, but being good at it is what we're hearing is one of those things. Can you guys share your reaction to that? Is that, I mean, it's hyperbole at some level, but it does point to the fact of adoption trends. You got to get good at it, you got to know how to use it. >> It's very accurate, actually. It's what we're seeing in the market. We've been doing some research of our own, and we have some interesting numbers that we're going to be sharing soon. Analysts don't have a whole lot of numbers these days. So where we're trying to run our own surveys to get a grasp of the market. One simple survey or research element that I've done myself is I used Google trends. And in Google trends, if you go back to 2004 and you compare VMware against Kubernetes, you get a very interesting graph. What you're going to see is that VMware, the adoption curve is practically complete and Kubernetes is clearly taking off. And the volume of searches for Kubernetes today is almost as big as VMware. So that's a big sign that this is starting to happen. But in this process, we have to get those companies to have all of their engineers to be up to speed on Kubernetes. And that's one of the community efforts that we're helping with. We built a website called learning.kasten.io We're going to rebrand it soon at CubeCon, so stay tuned, but we're offering hands on labs there for people to actually come learn Kubernetes with us. Because for us, the faster the adoption goes, the better for our business. >> I was just going to ask you about the learning. So there's a big focus here on educating customers to help dial down the complexity and really get them, these numbers up as John was mentioning. >> And we're really breaking it down to the very beginning. So at this point we have almost 10 labs as we call them up and they start really from install a Kubernetes Cluster and people really hands on are going to install a Kubernetes Cluster. They learn to build an application. They learn obviously to back up the application in the safest way. And then there is how to tune storage, how to implement security, and we're really building it up so that people can step by step in a hands on way learn Kubernetes. >> It's interesting, this VMware Explore, their first new name change, but VMWorld prior, big community, a lot of customers, loyal customers, but they're classic and they're foundational in enterprises and let's face it. Some of 'em aren't going to rip out VMware anytime soon because the workloads are running on it. So in Broadcom we'll have some good action to maybe increase prices or whatnot. So we'll see how that goes. But the personas here are definitely going cloud native. They did with Tanzu, was a great thing. Some stuff was coming off, the fruit's coming off the tree now, you're starting to see it. CNCF has been on this for a long, long time, CubeCon's coming up in Detroit. And so that's just always been great, 'cause you had the day zero event and you got all kinds of community activity, tons of developer action. So here they're talking, let's connect to the developer. There the developers are at CubeCon. So the personas are kind of connecting or overlapping. I'd love to get your thoughts, Matt on? >> So from the personnel that we're talking to, there really is a split between the traditional IT ops and a lot of the people that are here today at VMWare Explore, but we're also talking with the SREs and the dev ops folks. What really needs to happen is we need to get a little bit more experience, some more training and we need to get these two groups to really start to coordinate and work together 'cause you're basically moving from that traditional on-prem environment to a lot of these traditional workloads and the only way to get that experience is to get your hands dirty. >> Right. >> So how would you describe the persona specifically here versus say CubeCon? IT ops? >> Very, very different, well-- >> They still go ahead. Explain. >> Well, I mean, from this perspective, this is all about VMware and everything that they have to offer. So we're dealing with a lot of administrators from that regard. On the Kubernetes side, we have site reliability engineers and their goal is exactly as their title describes. They want to architect arch applications that are very resilient and reliable and it is a different way of working. >> I was on a Twitter spaces about SREs and dev ops and there was people saying their title's called dev ops. Like, no, no, you do dev ops, you don't really, you're not the dev ops person-- >> Right, right. >> But they become the dev ops person because you're the developer running operations. So it's been weird how dev ops been co-opted as a position. >> And that is really interesting. One person told me earlier when I started Kasten, we have this new persona. It's the dev ops person. That is the person that we're going after. But then talking to a few other people who were like, "They're not falling from space." It's people who used to do other jobs who now have a more dev ops approach to what they're doing. It's not a new-- >> And then the SRE conversation was in site, reliable engineer comes from Google, from one person managing multiple clusters to how that's evolved into being the dev ops. So it's been interesting and this is really the growth of scale, the 10X developer going to more of the cloud native, which is okay, you got to run ops and make the developer go faster. If you look at the stuff we've been covering on The Cube, the trends have been cloud native developers, which I call dev ops like developers. They want to go faster. They want self-service and they don't want to slow down. They don't want to deal with BS, which is go checking security code, wait for the ops team to do something. So data and security seem to be the new ops. Not so much IT ops 'cause that's now cloud. So how do you guys see that in, because Kubernetes is rationalizing this, certainly on the compute side, not so much on storage yet but it seems to be making things better in that grinding area between dev and these complicated ops areas like security data, where it's constantly changing. What do you think about that? >> Well there are still a lot of specialty folks in that area in regards to security operations. The whole idea is be able to script and automate as much as possible and not have to create a ticket to request a VM to be billed or an operating system or an application deployed. They're really empowered to automatically deploy those applications and keep them up. >> And that was the old dev ops role or person. That was what dev ops was called. So again, that is standard. I think at CubeCon, that is something that's expected. >> Yes. >> You would agree with that. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So now translating VM World, VMware Explore to CubeCon, what do you guys see as happening between now and then? Obviously got re:Invent right at the end in that first week of December coming. So that's going to be two major shows coming in now back to back that're going to be super interesting for this ecosystem. >> Quite frankly, if you compare the persona, maybe you have to step away from comparing the personas, but really compare the conversations that we're having. The conversations that you're having at a CubeCon are really deep dives. We will have people coming into our booth and taking 45 minutes, one hour of the time of the people who are supposed to do 10 minute demos because they're asking more and more questions 'cause they want to know every little detail, how things work. The conversations here are more like, why should I learn Kubernetes? Why should I start using Kubernetes? So it's really early day. Now, I'm not saying that in a bad way. This is really exciting 'cause when you hear CNCF say that 97% of enterprises are using Kubernetes, that's obviously that small part of their world. Those are their members. We now want to see that grow to the entire ecosystem, the larger ecosystem. >> Well, it's actually a great thing, actually. It's not a bad thing, but I will counter that by saying I am hearing the conversation here, you guys'll like this on the Veeam side, the other side of the Veeam, there's deep dives on ransomware and air gap and configuration errors on backup and recovery and it's all about Veeam on the other side. Those are the guys here talking deep dive on, making sure that they don't get screwed up on ransomware, not Kubernete, but they're going to Kub, but they're now leaning into Kubernetes. They're crossing into the new era because that's the apps'll end up writing the code for that. >> So the funny part is all of those concepts, ransomware and recovery, they're all, there are similar concepts in the world of Kubernetes and both on the Veeam side as well as the Kasten side, we are supporting a lot of those air gap solutions and providing a ransomware recovery solution and from a air gap perspective, there are a many use cases where you do need to live. It's not just the government entity, but we have customers that are cruise lines in Europe, for example, and they're disconnected. So they need to live in that disconnected world or military as well. >> Well, let's talk about the adoption of customers. I mean this is the customer side. What's accelerating their, what's the conversation with the customer at base, not just here but in the industry with Kubernetes, how would you guys categorize that? And how does that get accelerated? What's the customer situation? >> A big drive to Kubernetes is really about the automation, self-service and reliability. We're seeing the drive to and reduction of resources, being able to do more with less, right? This is ongoing the way it's always been. But I was talking to a large university in Western Canada and they're a huge Veeam customer worth 7000 VMs and three months ago, they said, "Over the next few years, we plan on moving all those workloads to Kubernetes." And the reason for it is really to reduce their workload, both from administration side, cost perspective as well as on-prem resources as well. So there's a lot of good business reasons to do that in addition to the technical reliability concerns. >> So what is those specific reasons? This is where now you start to see the rubber hit the road on acceleration. >> So I would say scale and flexibility that ecosystem, that opportunity to choose any application from that or any tool from that cloud native ecosystem is a big driver. I wanted to add to the adoption. Another area where I see a lot of interest is everything AI, machine learning. One example is also a customer coming from Veeam. We're seeing a lot of that and that's a great thing. It's an AI company that is doing software for automated driving. They decided that VMs alone were not going to be good enough for all of their workloads. And then for select workloads, the more scalable one where scalability was more of a topic, would move to Kubernetes. I think at this point they have like 20% of their workloads on Kubernetes and they're not planning to do away with VMs. VMs are always going to be there just like mainframes still exist. >> Yeah, oh yeah. They're accelerating actually. >> We're projecting over the next few years that we're going to go to a 50/50 and eventually lean towards more Kubernetes than VMs, but it was going to be a mix. >> Do you have a favorite customer example, Tom, that you think really articulates the value of what Kubernetes can deliver to customers where you guys are really coming in and help to demystify it? >> I would think SuperStereo is a really great example and you know the details about it. >> I love the SuperStereo story. They were a AWS customer and they're running OpenShift version three and they need to move to OpenShift version four. There is no upgrade in place. You have to migrate all your apps. Now SuperStereo is a large French IT firm. They have over 700 developers in their environment and it was by their estimation that this was going to take a few months to get that migration done. We're able to go in there and help them with the automation of that migration and Kasten was able to help them architect that migration and we did it in the course of a weekend with two people. >> A weekend? >> A weekend. >> That's a hackathon. I mean, that's not real come on. >> Compared to thousands of man hours and a few months not to mention since they were able to retire that old OpenShift cluster, the OpenShift three, they were able to stop paying Jeff Bezos for a couple of those months, which is tens of thousands of dollars per month. >> Don't tell anyone, keep that down low. You're going to get shot when you leave this place. No, seriously. This is why I think the multi-cloud hybrid is interesting because these kinds of examples are going to be more than less coming down the road. You're going to see, you're going to hear more of these stories than not hear them because what containerization now Kubernetes doing, what Dockers doing now and the role of containers not being such a land grab is allowing Kubernetes to be more versatile in its approach. So I got to ask you, you can almost apply that concept to agility, to other scenarios like spanning data across clouds. >> Yes, and that is what we're seeing. So the call I had this morning with a large insurance provider, you may have that insurance provider, healthcare provider, they're across three of the major hyperscalers clouds and they do that for reliability. Last year, AWS went down, I think three times in Q4 and to have a plan of being able to recover somewhere else, you can actually plan your, it's DR, it's a planned migration. You can do that in a few hours. >> It's interesting, just the sidebar here for a second. We had a couple chats earlier today. We had the influences on and all the super cloud conversations and trying to get more data to share with the audience across multiple areas. One of them was Amazon and that super, the hyper clouds like Amazon, as your Google and the rest are out there, Oracle, IBM and everyone else. There's almost a consensus that maybe there's time for some peace amongst the cloud vendors. Like, "Hey, you've already won." (Tom laughs) Everyone's won, now let's just like, we know where everyone is. Let's go peace time and everyone, then 'cause the relationship's not going to change between public cloud and the new world. So there's a consensus, like what does peace look like? I mean, first of all, the pie's getting bigger. You're seeing ecosystems forming around all the big new areas and that's good thing. That's the tides rise and the pie's getting bigger, there's bigger market out there now so people can share and share. >> I've never worked for any of these big players. So I would have to agree with you, but peace would not drive innovation. And in my heart is with tech innovation. I love it when vendors come up with new solutions that will make things better for customers and if that means that we're moving from on-prem to cloud and back to on-prem, I'm fine with that. >> What excites me is really having the flexibility of being able to choose any provider you want because you do have open standards, being cloud native in the world of Kubernetes. I've recently discovered that the Canadian federal government had mandated to their financial institutions that, "Yes, you may have started all of your on cloud presence in Azure, you need to have an option to be elsewhere." So it's not like-- >> Well, the sovereign cloud is one of those big initiatives, but also going back to Java, we heard another guest earlier, we were thinking about Java, right once ran anywhere, right? So you can't do that today in a cloud, but now with containers-- >> You can. >> Again, this is, again, this is the point that's happening. Explain. >> So when you have, Kubernetes is a strict standard and all of the applications are written to that. So whether you are deploying MongoDB or Postgres or Cassandra or any of the other cloud native apps, you can deploy them pretty much the same, whether they're in AKS, EKS or on Tanzu and it makes it much easier. The world became just a lot less for proprietary. >> So that's the story that everybody wants to hear. How does that happen in a way that is, doesn't stall the innovation and the developer growth 'cause the developers are driving a lot of change. I mean, for all the talk in the industry, the developers are doing pretty good right now. They've got a lot of open source, plentiful, open source growing like crazy. You got shifting left in the CICD pipeline. You got tools coming out with Kubernetes. Infrastructure has code is almost a 100% reality right now. So there's a lot of good things going on for developers. That's not an issue. The issue is just underneath. >> It's a skillset and that is really one of the biggest challenges I see in our deployments is a lack of experience. And it's not everyone. There are some folks that have been playing around for the last couple of years with it and they do have that experience, but there are many people that are still young at this. >> Okay, let's do, as we wrap up, let's do a lead into CubeCon, it's coming up and obviously re:Invent's right behind it. Lisa, we're going to have a lot of pre CubeCon interviews. We'll interview all the committee chairs, program chairs. We'll get the scoop on that, we do that every year. But while we got you guys here, let's do a little pre-pre-preview of CubeCon. What can we expect? What do you guys think is going to happen this year? What does CubeCon look? You guys our big sponsor of CubeCon. You guys do a great job there. Thanks for doing that. The community really recognizes that. But as Kubernetes comes in now for this year, you're looking at probably the what third year now that I would say Kubernetes has been on the front burner, where do you see it on the hockey stick growth? Have we kicked the curve yet? What's going to be the level of intensity for Kubernetes this year? How's that going to impact CubeCon in a way that people may or may not think it will? >> So I think first of all, CubeCon is going to be back at the level where it was before the pandemic, because the show, as many other shows, has been suffering from, I mean, virtual events are not like the in-person events. CubeCon LA was super exciting for all the vendors last year, but the attendees were not really there yet. Valencia was a huge bump already and I think Detroit, it's a very exciting city I heard. So it's going to be a blast and it's going to be a huge attendance, that's what I'm expecting. Second I can, so this is going to be my third personally, in-person CubeCon, comparing how vendors evolved between the previous two. There's going to be a lot of interesting stories from vendors, a lot of new innovation coming onto the market. And I think the conversations that we're going to be having will yet, again, be much more about live applications and people using Kubernetes in production rather than those at the first in-person CubeCon for me in LA where it was a lot about learning still, we're going to continue to help people learn 'cause it's really important for us but the exciting part about CubeCon is you're talking to people who are using Kubernetes in production and that's really cool. >> And users contributing projects too. >> Also. >> I mean Lyft is a poster child there and you've got a lot more. Of course you got the stealth recruiting going on there, Apple, all the big guys are there. They have a booth and no one's attending you like, "Oh come on." Matt, what's your take on CubeCon? Going in, what do you see? And obviously a lot of dynamic new projects. >> I'm going to see much, much deeper tech conversations. As experience increases, the more you learn, the more you realize you have to learn more. >> And the sharing's going to increase too. >> And the sharing, yeah. So I see a lot of deep conversations. It's no longer the, "Why do I need Kubernetes?" It's more, "How do I architect this for my solution or for my environment?" And yeah, I think there's a lot more depth involved and the size of CubeCon is going to be much larger than we've seen in the past. >> And to finish off what I think from the vendor's point of view, what we're going to see is a lot of applications that will be a lot more enterprise-ready because that is the part that was missing so far. It was a lot about the what's new and enabling Kubernetes. But now that adoption is going up, a lot of features for different components still need to be added to have them enterprise-ready. >> And what can the audience expect from you guys at CubeCon? Any teasers you can give us from a marketing perspective? >> Yes. We have a rebranding sitting ready for learning website. It's going to be bigger and better. So we're not no longer going to call it, learning.kasten.io but I'll be happy to come back with you guys and present a new name at CubeCon. >> All right. >> All right. That sounds like a deal. Guys, thank you so much for joining John and me breaking down all things Kubernetes, talking about customer adoption, the challenges, but also what you're doing to demystify it. We appreciate your insights and your time. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you very much. >> Our pleasure. >> Thanks Matt. >> For our guests and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching The Cube's live coverage of VMware Explore 2022. Thanks for joining us. Stay safe. (gentle music)

>> We're back at the Big Apple, theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. Sahir Azam is here, he's the Chief Product Officer of MongoDB, and Guillermo Rauch who's the CEO of Vercel. Hot off the keynotes from this morning guys, good job. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for joining us here. Thanks for having us. Guillermo when it comes to modern web development, you know the back-end, the cloud guys got to it kind of sewn up, >> you know- >> Guillermo: Forget about it. >> But all the action's in the front end, and that's where you are. Explain Vercel. >> Yeah so Vercel is the company that pioneers front-end development as serverless infrastructure. So we built Next.js which is the most popular React framework in the world. This is what front-end engineers choose to build innovative UI's, beautiful websites. Companies like Dior and GitHub and TikTok and Twitch, which we mentioned in the keynote, are powering their entire dot-coms or all of their new parts of their dot-coms with Next.js. And Vercel is the serverless platform where you can deploy frameworks like in Next.js and others like Svelte and Vue to create really fast experiences on the web. >> So I hear, so serverless, I hear that's the hot trend. You guys made some announcements today. I mean when you look at the, we have spending data with our friends at ETR right down the street. I mean it's just off the charts, whether it's Amazon, Google, Azure Functions, I mean it's just exploding. >> Sahir: Yeah, it's I think in many ways, it's a natural trend. You know, we talk a lot about, whether it be today's keynote or another industry talks you see around our industry that developers are constantly looking for ways to focus on innovation and the business logic that defines their application and as opposed to managing the plumbing, and management of infrastructure. And we've seen this happen over and over again across every layer of the stack. And so for us, you know MongoDB, we have a bit of, you know sort of a lens of a broad spectrum of the market. We certainly have you know, large enterprises that are modernizing existing kind of core systems, then we have developers all over the world who are building the next big best thing. And that's what led us to partner with Vercel is just the bleeding edge of developers building in a new way, in a much more efficient way. And we wanted to make sure we provide a data platform that fits naturally in the way they want to work. >> So explain to our audience the trade-offs of serverless, and I want to get into sort of how you've resolved that. And then I want to hear from Guillermo, what that means for developers. >> Sahir: Yeah in our case, we don't view it as an either or, there are certain workloads and definitely certain companies that will gravitate towards a more traditional database infrastructure where they're choosing the configuration of their cluster. They want full control over it. And that provides, you know, certain benefits around cost predictability or isolation or perceived benefits at least of those things. And customers will gravitate towards that. Now on the flip side, if you're building a new application or you want the ability to scale seamlessly and not have to worry about any of the plumbing, serverless is clearly the easier model. So over the long term, we certainly expect to see as a mix of things, more and more serverless workloads being built on our platform and just generally in the industry, which is why we leaned in so heavily on investing in Atlas serverless. But the flexibility to not be forced into a particular model, but to get the same database experience across your application and even switch between them is an important characteristic for us as we build going forward. >> And you stressed the cost efficiency, and not having to worry about, you know, starting cold. You've architected around that, and what does that mean for a developer? >> Guillermo: For a developer it means that you kind of get the best of both worlds, right? Like you get the best possible performance. Front-end developers are extremely sensitive to this. That's why us pioneering this concept, serverless front-end, has put us in a very privileged position because we have to deliver that really quick time to first buy, that really quick paint. So any of the old trade-offs of serverless are not accepted by the market. You have to be extremely fast. You have to be instant to deliver that front-end content. So what we talked about today for example, with the Vercel Edge network, we're removing all of the cost of that like first hit. That cold start doesn't really exist. And now we're seeing it all across the board, going into the back-end where Mongo has also gotten rid of it. >> Dave: How do you guys collaborate? What's the focus of integration specifically from, you know, an engineering resource standpoint? >> Yeah the main idea is, idea to global app in seconds, right? You have your idea. We give you the framework. We don't give you infrastructure primitives. We give you all the necessary tools to start your application. In practice this means you host it in a Git repo. You import it onto Vercel. You install the Mongo integration. Now your front-end and your data back-end are connected. And then your application just goes global in seconds. >> So, okay. So you've abstracted away the complexity of those primitives, is that correct? >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> Do do developers ever say, "That's awesome but I'd like to get to them every now and then." Or do you not allow that? >> Definitely. We expose all the underlying APIs, and the key thing we hear is that, especially with the push for usage-based billing models, observability is of the essence. So at any time you have to be able to query, in real time, every data point that the platform is observing. We give you performance analytics in real time to see how your front-end is performing. We give you statistics about how often you're querying your back-end and so on, and your cache hit ratios. So what I talked about today in the keynote is, it's not just about throwing more compute at the problem, but the ability to use the edge to your advantage to memoize computation and reuse it across different visits. >> When we think of mission critical historically, you know, you think about going to the ATM, right? I mean a financial transaction. But Mongo is positioning for mission critical applications across a variety of industries. Do we need to rethink what mission critical means? >> I think it's all in the eye of the beholder so to speak. If you're a new business starting up, your software and your application is your entire business. So if you have a cold start latency or God forbid something actually goes down, you don't have a business. So it's just as mission critical to that founder of a new business and new technology as it is, you know, an established enterprise that's running sort of a more, you know, day-to-day application that we may all interact with. So we treat all of those scenarios with equal fervor and importance right? And many times, it's a lot of those new experiences that the become the day-to-day experiences for us globally, and are super important. And we power all of those, whether it be an established enterprise all the way to the next big startup. >> I often talk about COVID as the forced march to digital. >> Sahir: Mm-Hmm. >> Which was obviously a little bit rushed, but if you weren't in digital business, you were out of business. And so now you're seeing people step back and say, "All right, let's be more thoughtful about our digital transformation. We've got some time, we've obviously learned some things made some mistakes." It's all about the customer experience though. And that becomes mission critical right? What are you seeing Guillermo, in terms of the patterns in digital transformation now that we're sort of exiting the isolation economy? >> One thing that comes to mind is, we're seeing that it's not always predictable how fast you're going to grow in this digital economy. So we have customers in the ecommerce space, they do a drop and they're piggybacking on serverless to give them that ability to instantly scale. And they couldn't even prepare for some of these events. We see that a lot with the Web3 space and NFT drops, where they're building in such a way that they're not sensitive to this massive fluctuations in traffic. They're taking it for granted. We've put in so much work together behind the scenes to support it. But the digital native creator just, "Oh things are scaling from one second to the next like I'm hitting like 20,000 requests per second, no problem Vercel is handling it." But the amount of infrastructural work that's gone behind the scenes in support has been incredible. >> We see that in gaming all the time, you know it's really hard for a gaming company to necessarily predict where in the globe a game's going to be particularly hot. Games get super popular super fast if they're successful, it's really hard to predict. It's another vertical that's got a similar dynamic. >> So gaming, crypto, so you're saying that you're able to assist your customers in architecting so that the website doesn't crash. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> But at the same time, if the the business dynamic changes, they can dial down. >> Yeah. >> Right and in many ways, slow is the new down, right? And if somebody has a slow experience they're going to leave your site just as much as if it's- >> I'm out of here- >> You were down. So you know, it's really maintaining that really fast performance, that amazing customer experience. Because this is all measured, it's scientific. Like anytime there's friction in the process, you're going to lose customers. >> So obviously people are excited about your keynote, but what have they been saying? Any specific comments you can share, or questions that you got that were really interesting or? >> I'm already getting links to the apps that people are deploying. So the whole idea- >> Come on! >> All over the world. Yeah so it's already working I'm excited. >> So they were show they were showing off, "Look what I did" Really? >> Yeah on Twitter. >> That's amazing. >> I think from my standpoint, I got a question earlier, we were with a bunch of financial analysts and investors, and they said they've been talking to a lot of the customers in the halls. And just to see, you know, from the last time we were all in person, the number of our customers that are using multiple capabilities across this idea of a developer data platform, you know, certainly MongoDB's been a popular core database open source for a long time. But the new capabilities around search, analytics, mobile being adopted much more broadly to power these experiences is the most exciting thing from our side. >> So from 2019 to now, you're saying substantial uptick in adoption for these features? >> Yeah. And many of them are new. >> Time series as well, that's pretty new, so yeah. >> Yeah and you know, our philosophy of development at MongoDB is to get capabilities in the hands of customers early. Get that feedback to enrich and drive that product-market fit. And over the last three years especially, we've been transitioning from a single product kind of core, you know, non relational modern database to a data platform, a developer data platform that adds more and more capabilities to power these modern applications. And a lot of those were released during the pandemic. Certainly we talked about them in our virtual conferences and all the zoom meetings we had over the years. But to actually go talk to all these customers, this is the largest conference we've ever put on, and to get a sense of, wow all the amazing things they're doing with them, it's definitely a different feeling when we're all together. >> So that's interesting, when you have such a hot product, product-led growth which is what Mongo has been in, and you add these new features. They're coming from the developers who are saying, "Hey, we need this." >> Yip. >> Okay so you have a pretty high degree of confidence, but how do you know when you have product-market fit? I mean, is it adoption, usage, renewals? What's your metric? >> Yeah I think it's a mix of quantitative measures that you know, around conversion rates, the size of your funnel, the retention rate, NPS which obviously can be measured, but also just qualitative. You know when you're talking to a developer or a technology executive around what their needs are, and then you see how they actually apply it to solve a problem, it's that balance between the qualitative and the quantitative measurement of things. And you can just sort of, frankly you can feel it. You can see it in the numbers sure, but you can kind of feel that excitement, you can see that adoption and what it empowers people to do. And so to me, as a product leader, it's always a blend of those things. If you get too obsessed with purely the metrics, you can always over optimize something for the wrong reason. So you have to bring in that qualitative feedback to balance yourself out. >> Right. >> Guillermo, what's next? What do you not have that you want from Sahir and Mongo? >> So the natural next step for serverless computing is, is the Edge. So we have to auto-scale, we have to tolerate fares. We have to be avail. We have to be easy, but we have to be global. And right now we've been doing this by using a lot of techniques like caching and replication and things like this. But the future's about personalizing even more to each visitor depending on where they are. So if I'm in New York, I want to get the latest offers for New York on demand, just for me, and using AI to continue to personalize that experience. So giving the developer these tools in a way where it feels natural to build an application like this. It doesn't feel like, "Oh I'm going to do this year 10 if I make it, I'm going to do it since the very beginning." >> Dave: Okay interesting. So that says to me that I'm not going to make a round trip to the cloud necessarily for that experience. So I'm going to have some kind, Apple today, at the Worldwide Developer Conference announced the M2, right. I've been looking at the M1 Ultra, and I'm going wow look at that! And so- >> Sahir: You were talking about that new one backstage. >> I mean it's this amazing pace of Silicon development and they're focusing on the NPU and you look at what Tesla's doing. I mean it's just incredible. So you're going to have some new hardware architecture that emerges. Most of the AI that's done today is modeling in the cloud. You're going to have a real time inferencing at the Edge. So that's not going to do the round trip. There's going to be a data store there, I think it has to be. You're going to persist some of the data, maybe not all of it. So it's a whole new architecture- >> Sahir: Absolutely. >> That's developing. That sounds very disruptive. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> How do you think about that, and how does Mongo play there? Guillermo first. >> What I spent a lot of time thinking about is obviously the developer experience, giving the programmer a programming model that is natural, intuitive, and produces its great results. So if they have to think about data that's local because of regulatory reasons for example, how can we let the framework guide them to success? I'm just writing an application I deployed to the cloud and then everything else is figured out. >> Yeah or speed of light is another challenge. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> How can we overcome the speed of light is our next task for sure. >> Well you're working on that aren't you? You've got the best engineers on that one. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> We can solve a lot of problems, I'm not sure of that one. >> So Mongo plays in that scenario or? >> Yeah so I think, absolutely you know, we've been focused heavily on becoming the globally distributed cloud data layer. The back-end data layer that allows you to persist data to align with performance and move data where it needs to be globally or deal with data sovereignty, data nationalism that's starting to rise, but absolutely there is more data being pushed out to the Edge, to your point around processing or inference happening at the Edge. And there's going to be a globally distributed front-end layer as well, whether data and processing takes apart. And so we're focused on one, making sure the data connectivity and the layer is all connected into one unified architecture. We do that in combination with technologies that we have that do with mobility or edge distribution and synchronization of data with realm. And we do it with partnerships. We have edge partnerships with AWS and Verizon. We have partnerships with a lot of CVM players who are building out that Edge platform and making sure that MongoDB is either connected to it or just driving that synchronization back and forth. >> I call that unified experience super cloud, Robbie Belson from Verizon the cloud continuum, but that consistent experience for developers whether you're on Prim, whether you're in you know, Azure, Google, AWS, and ultimately the Edge. That's the big- >> That's where it's going. >> White space right now I'm hearing, Guillermo, right? >> I think it'll define the next generation of how software is built. And we're seeing this almost like a coalition course between some of the ideas that the Web3 developers are excited about, which is like decentralization almost to the extreme. But the Web2 also needs more decentralization, because we're seeing it with like, the data needs to be local to me, I need more privacy. I was looking at the latest encryption features in Mongo, like I think both Web2 need to incorporate more of the ideas of Web3 and vice versa to create the best possible consumer experience. Privacy matters more than ever before. Latency for conversion matters more than ever before. And regulations are changing. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> And you talked about Web3 earlier, talked about new protocols, a new distributed you know, decentralized system emerging, new hardware architectures. I really believe we really think that new economics are going to bleed back into the data center, and yeah every 15 years or so this industry gets disrupted. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> You know you ain't see nothing yet guys. >> We all talked about hardware becoming commoditized 10, 15 years ago- >> Yeah of course. >> We get the virtualization, and it's like nope not at all. It's actually a lot of invention happening. >> The lower the price the more the consumption. So guys thanks so much. Great conversation. >> Thank you. >> Really appreciate your time. >> Really appreciate it I enjoyed the conversation. >> All right and thanks for watching. Keep it right there. We'll be back with our next segment right after this short break. Dave Vellante for theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. >> Man Offscreen: Clear. (clapping) >> All right wow. Don't get up. >> Sahir: Okay. >> Is that a Moonwatch? >> Sahir: It is a Speedmaster but it's that the-

>> Man Offscreen: Standby. Dave is coming you in 5, 4, 3, 2. >> We're back at the Big Apple, theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. Sahir Azam is here, he's the Chief Product Officer of MongoDB, and Guillermo Rauch who's the CEO of Vercel. Hot off the keynotes from this morning guys, good job. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for joining us here. Thanks for having us. Guillermo when it comes to modern web development, you know the back-end, the cloud guys got to it kind of sewn up, >> you know- >> Guillermo: Forget about it. >> But all the action's in the front end, and that's where you are. Explain Vercel. >> Yeah so Vercel is the company that pioneers front-end development as serverless infrastructure. So we built Next.js which is the most popular React framework in the world. This is what front-end engineers choose to build innovative UI's, beautiful websites. Companies like Dior and GitHub and TikTok and Twitch, which we mentioned in the keynote, are powering their entire dot-coms or all of their new parts of their dot-coms with Next.js. And Vercel is the serverless platform where you can deploy frameworks like in Next.js and others like Svelte and Vue to create really fast experiences on the web. >> So I hear, so serverless, I hear that's the hot trend. You guys made some announcements today. I mean when you look at the, we have spending data with our friends at ETR right down the street. I mean it's just off the charts, whether it's Amazon, Google, Azure Functions, I mean it's just exploding. >> Sahir: Yeah, it's I think in many ways, it's a natural trend. You know, we talk a lot about, whether it be today's keynote or another industry talks you see around our industry that developers are constantly looking for ways to focus on innovation and the business logic that defines their application and as opposed to managing the plumbing, and management of infrastructure. And we've seen this happen over and over again across every layer of the stack. And so for us, you know MongoDB, we have a bit of, you know sort of a lens of a broad spectrum of the market. We certainly have you know, large enterprises that are modernizing existing kind of core systems, then we have developers all over the world who are building the next big best thing. And that's what led us to partner with Vercel is just the bleeding edge of developers building in a new way, in a much more efficient way. And we wanted to make sure we provide a data platform that fits naturally in the way they want to work. >> So explain to our audience the trade-offs of serverless, and I want to get into sort of how you've resolved that. And then I want to hear from Guillermo, what that means for developers. >> Sahir: Yeah in our case, we don't view it as an either or, there are certain workloads and definitely certain companies that will gravitate towards a more traditional database infrastructure where they're choosing the configuration of their cluster. They want full control over it. And that provides, you know, certain benefits around cost predictability or isolation or perceived benefits at least of those things. And customers will gravitate towards that. Now on the flip side, if you're building a new application or you want the ability to scale seamlessly and not have to worry about any of the plumbing, serverless is clearly the easier model. So over the long term, we certainly expect to see as a mix of things, more and more serverless workloads being built on our platform and just generally in the industry, which is why we leaned in so heavily on investing in Atlas serverless. But the flexibility to not be forced into a particular model, but to get the same database experience across your application and even switch between them is an important characteristic for us as we build going forward. >> And you stressed the cost efficiency, and not having to worry about, you know, starting cold. You've architected around that, and what does that mean for a developer? >> Guillermo: For a developer it means that you kind of get the best of both worlds, right? Like you get the best possible performance. Front-end developers are extremely sensitive to this. That's why us pioneering this concept, serverless front-end, has put us in a very privileged position because we have to deliver that really quick time to first buy, that really quick paint. So any of the old trade-offs of serverless are not accepted by the market. You have to be extremely fast. You have to be instant to deliver that front-end content. So what we talked about today for example, with the Vercel Edge network, we're removing all of the cost of that like first hit. That cold start doesn't really exist. And now we're seeing it all across the board, going into the back-end where Mongo has also gotten rid of it. >> Dave: How do you guys collaborate? What's the focus of integration specifically from, you know, an engineering resource standpoint? >> Yeah the main idea is, idea to global app in seconds, right? You have your idea. We give you the framework. We don't give you infrastructure primitives. We give you all the necessary tools to start your application. In practice this means you host it in a Git repo. You import it onto Vercel. You install the Mongo integration. Now your front-end and your data back-end are connected. And then your application just goes global in seconds. >> So, okay. So you've abstracted away the complexity of those primitives, is that correct? >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> Do do developers ever say, "That's awesome but I'd like to get to them every now and then." Or do you not allow that? >> Definitely. We expose all the underlying APIs, and the key thing we hear is that, especially with the push for usage-based billing models, observability is of the essence. So at any time you have to be able to query, in real time, every data point that the platform is observing. We give you performance analytics in real time to see how your front-end is performing. We give you statistics about how often you're querying your back-end and so on, and your cache hit ratios. So what I talked about today in the keynote is, it's not just about throwing more compute at the problem, but the ability to use the edge to your advantage to memoize computation and reuse it across different visits. >> When we think of mission critical historically, you know, you think about going to the ATM, right? I mean a financial transaction. But Mongo is positioning for mission critical applications across a variety of industries. Do we need to rethink what mission critical means? >> I think it's all in the eye of the beholder so to speak. If you're a new business starting up, your software and your application is your entire business. So if you have a cold start latency or God forbid something actually goes down, you don't have a business. So it's just as mission critical to that founder of a new business and new technology as it is, you know, an established enterprise that's running sort of a more, you know, day-to-day application that we may all interact with. So we treat all of those scenarios with equal fervor and importance right? And many times, it's a lot of those new experiences that the become the day-to-day experiences for us globally, and are super important. And we power all of those, whether it be an established enterprise all the way to the next big startup. >> I often talk about COVID as the forced march to digital. >> Sahir: Mm-Hmm. >> Which was obviously a little bit rushed, but if you weren't in digital business, you were out of business. And so now you're seeing people step back and say, "All right, let's be more thoughtful about our digital transformation. We've got some time, we've obviously learned some things made some mistakes." It's all about the customer experience though. And that becomes mission critical right? What are you seeing Guillermo, in terms of the patterns in digital transformation now that we're sort of exiting the isolation economy? >> One thing that comes to mind is, we're seeing that it's not always predictable how fast you're going to grow in this digital economy. So we have customers in the ecommerce space, they do a drop and they're piggybacking on serverless to give them that ability to instantly scale. And they couldn't even prepare for some of these events. We see that a lot with the Web3 space and NFT drops, where they're building in such a way that they're not sensitive to this massive fluctuations in traffic. They're taking it for granted. We've put in so much work together behind the scenes to support it. But the digital native creator just, "Oh things are scaling from one second to the next like I'm hitting like 20,000 requests per second, no problem Vercel is handling it." But the amount of infrastructural work that's gone behind the scenes in support has been incredible. >> We see that in gaming all the time, you know it's really hard for a gaming company to necessarily predict where in the globe a game's going to be particularly hot. Games get super popular super fast if they're successful, it's really hard to predict. It's another vertical that's got a similar dynamic. >> So gaming, crypto, so you're saying that you're able to assist your customers in architecting so that the website doesn't crash. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> But at the same time, if the the business dynamic changes, they can dial down. >> Yeah. >> Right and in many ways, slow is the new down, right? And if somebody has a slow experience they're going to leave your site just as much as if it's- >> I'm out of here- >> You were down. So you know, it's really maintaining that really fast performance, that amazing customer experience. Because this is all measured, it's scientific. Like anytime there's friction in the process, you're going to lose customers. >> So obviously people are excited about your keynote, but what have they been saying? Any specific comments you can share, or questions that you got that were really interesting or? >> I'm already getting links to the apps that people are deploying. So the whole idea- >> Come on! >> All over the world. Yeah so it's already working I'm excited. >> So they were show they were showing off, "Look what I did" Really? >> Yeah on Twitter. >> That's amazing. >> I think from my standpoint, I got a question earlier, we were with a bunch of financial analysts and investors, and they said they've been talking to a lot of the customers in the halls. And just to see, you know, from the last time we were all in person, the number of our customers that are using multiple capabilities across this idea of a developer data platform, you know, certainly MongoDB's been a popular core database open source for a long time. But the new capabilities around search, analytics, mobile being adopted much more broadly to power these experiences is the most exciting thing from our side. >> So from 2019 to now, you're saying substantial uptick in adoption for these features? >> Yeah. And many of them are new. >> Time series as well, that's pretty new, so yeah. >> Yeah and you know, our philosophy of development at MongoDB is to get capabilities in the hands of customers early. Get that feedback to enrich and drive that product-market fit. And over the last three years especially, we've been transitioning from a single product kind of core, you know, non relational modern database to a data platform, a developer data platform that adds more and more capabilities to power these modern applications. And a lot of those were released during the pandemic. Certainly we talked about them in our virtual conferences and all the zoom meetings we had over the years. But to actually go talk to all these customers, this is the largest conference we've ever put on, and to get a sense of, wow all the amazing things they're doing with them, it's definitely a different feeling when we're all together. >> So that's interesting, when you have such a hot product, product-led growth which is what Mongo has been in, and you add these new features. They're coming from the developers who are saying, "Hey, we need this." >> Yip. >> Okay so you have a pretty high degree of confidence, but how do you know when you have product-market fit? I mean, is it adoption, usage, renewals? What's your metric? >> Yeah I think it's a mix of quantitative measures that you know, around conversion rates, the size of your funnel, the retention rate, NPS which obviously can be measured, but also just qualitative. You know when you're talking to a developer or a technology executive around what their needs are, and then you see how they actually apply it to solve a problem, it's that balance between the qualitative and the quantitative measurement of things. And you can just sort of, frankly you can feel it. You can see it in the numbers sure, but you can kind of feel that excitement, you can see that adoption and what it empowers people to do. And so to me, as a product leader, it's always a blend of those things. If you get too obsessed with purely the metrics, you can always over optimize something for the wrong reason. So you have to bring in that qualitative feedback to balance yourself out. >> Right. >> Guillermo, what's next? What do you not have that you want from Sahir and Mongo? >> So the natural next step for serverless computing is, is the Edge. So we have to auto-scale, we have to tolerate fares. We have to be avail. We have to be easy, but we have to be global. And right now we've been doing this by using a lot of techniques like caching and replication and things like this. But the future's about personalizing even more to each visitor depending on where they are. So if I'm in New York, I want to get the latest offers for New York on demand, just for me, and using AI to continue to personalize that experience. So giving the developer these tools in a way where it feels natural to build an application like this. It doesn't feel like, "Oh I'm going to do this year 10 if I make it, I'm going to do it since the very beginning." >> Dave: Okay interesting. So that says to me that I'm not going to make a round trip to the cloud necessarily for that experience. So I'm going to have some kind, Apple today, at the Worldwide Developer Conference announced the M2, right. I've been looking at the M1 Ultra, and I'm going wow look at that! And so- >> Sahir: You were talking about that new one backstage. >> I mean it's this amazing pace of Silicon development and they're focusing on the NPU and you look at what Tesla's doing. I mean it's just incredible. So you're going to have some new hardware architecture that emerges. Most of the AI that's done today is modeling in the cloud. You're going to have a real time inferencing at the Edge. So that's not going to do the round trip. There's going to be a data store there, I think it has to be. You're going to persist some of the data, maybe not all of it. So it's a whole new architecture- >> Sahir: Absolutely. >> That's developing. That sounds very disruptive. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> How do you think about that, and how does Mongo play there? Guillermo first. >> What I spent a lot of time thinking about is obviously the developer experience, giving the programmer a programming model that is natural, intuitive, and produces its great results. So if they have to think about data that's local because of regulatory reasons for example, how can we let the framework guide them to success? I'm just writing an application I deployed to the cloud and then everything else is figured out. >> Yeah or speed of light is another challenge. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> How can we overcome the speed of light is our next task for sure. >> Well you're working on that aren't you? You've got the best engineers on that one. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> We can solve a lot of problems, I'm not sure of that one. >> So Mongo plays in that scenario or? >> Yeah so I think, absolutely you know, we've been focused heavily on becoming the globally distributed cloud data layer. The back-end data layer that allows you to persist data to align with performance and move data where it needs to be globally or deal with data sovereignty, data nationalism that's starting to rise, but absolutely there is more data being pushed out to the Edge, to your point around processing or inference happening at the Edge. And there's going to be a globally distributed front-end layer as well, whether data and processing takes apart. And so we're focused on one, making sure the data connectivity and the layer is all connected into one unified architecture. We do that in combination with technologies that we have that do with mobility or edge distribution and synchronization of data with realm. And we do it with partnerships. We have edge partnerships with AWS and Verizon. We have partnerships with a lot of CVM players who are building out that Edge platform and making sure that MongoDB is either connected to it or just driving that synchronization back and forth. >> I call that unified experience super cloud, Robbie Belson from Verizon the cloud continuum, but that consistent experience for developers whether you're on Prim, whether you're in you know, Azure, Google, AWS, and ultimately the Edge. That's the big- >> That's where it's going. >> White space right now I'm hearing, Guillermo, right? >> I think it'll define the next generation of how software is built. And we're seeing this almost like a coalition course between some of the ideas that the Web3 developers are excited about, which is like decentralization almost to the extreme. But the Web2 also needs more decentralization, because we're seeing it with like, the data needs to be local to me, I need more privacy. I was looking at the latest encryption features in Mongo, like I think both Web2 need to incorporate more of the ideas of Web3 and vice versa to create the best possible consumer experience. Privacy matters more than ever before. Latency for conversion matters more than ever before. And regulations are changing. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> And you talked about Web3 earlier, talked about new protocols, a new distributed you know, decentralized system emerging, new hardware architectures. I really believe we really think that new economics are going to bleed back into the data center, and yeah every 15 years or so this industry gets disrupted. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> You know you ain't see nothing yet guys. >> We all talked about hardware becoming commoditized 10, 15 years ago- >> Yeah of course. >> We get the virtualization, and it's like nope not at all. It's actually a lot of invention happening. >> The lower the price the more the consumption. So guys thanks so much. Great conversation. >> Thank you. >> Really appreciate your time. >> Really appreciate it I enjoyed the conversation. >> All right and thanks for watching. Keep it right there. We'll be back with our next segment right after this short break. Dave Vellante for theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. >> Man Offscreen: Clear. (clapping) >> All right wow. Don't get up. >> Sahir: Okay. >> Is that a Moonwatch? >> Sahir: It is a Speedmaster but it's that the-

>>Yeah. Hello. Welcome to the Cubes International Women's Showcase, featuring International Women's Day. I'm John for your host of the queue here in Palo Alto, California. And we have three great guests videoing in from Kuala Lumpur as well as Bangkok. Johann Kwa, group CEO of K s K Group. It's just a Christina Equal, co founder and head of K s, K C Labs and Cindy, co founder of Sunday Insurance in Bangkok. Ladies. Thanks for coming on the cue. Appreciate you coming on. Thanks for Thanks for joining me on this special day. >>Thank you. Thank you so much. You >>guys are three sisters, trailblazing and the insurance and real estate through digital transformation in the cloud taking a three decade old family business to the next level raising the bar, as they say in the cloud business. Congratulations. Tell us how it all started. What's going on now? What does it look like? Where did it come from? Tell the Storey. >>Okay, so maybe I'll start, Uh, you know, since I'm at the group CEO level. So, um, as a quick introduction, you know? Okay. SK group, uh, were about 30 years old now, as a group three decades. Um, we started off as an insurance, uh, nonlife insurance company. Um, and then over the years, um, you know, we we operate in in South East Asia, So we are based in the US and markets. That message is also sitting in, um, and very quickly over the years, you know, we decided to actually venture into property development as well. Um, and really across the journey. Um, you know, we we've always been very, um, obsessed over the customers. You know, uh, and, you know, during this time and age, you know, all the customers are really digital natives now, and and, you know, the tech is very, very interesting. And so So starting in the year of 2017, we decided, um, to actually venture. Cindy and I at least we decided to start up our own, uh, tech, uh, called Sunday. Uh, Cindy is now the full time CEO and co founders. Um, and, you know, uh, it's an exciting journey from then on, uh, where now The first full stack ensure attack in in the whole of of the Asian market, uh, starting off in Thailand. Um, And then when Christine came back, to join the business. You know, since we were already in real estate, we decided, taking on from the inspiration of what we did with Sunday, how about we do the same in in in property? Because we obviously saw, you know, there was super loads of opportunities that we could we could we could do. And and a year ago, we gave birth to cast a city lapse. Um, now a prop tech company based in Malaysia. >>Christine and Cindy tell the storey here because this is actually fascinating. Storey, your sisters, your entrepreneurial. So you know each other? You're related and you've got ups and downs with the startups and growing companies changing landscape. A lot of challenges. You all gotta get along all the time. How's it going? What's it like? Mm. >>Maybe I'll start. I think I think for me I'm probably the newest addition to the trio in the, you know, working together kind of space. So for me, I think it's all about really learning how to, you know, separate your professional and personal life. And like you mentioned, you know, we live together. But we also work together. So for me, I think I took a >>lot of advice >>and direction. Um, both from Johann and, >>uh, help >>me a lot. Um, so So I think that's been my experience. Been great So far, Um, they've been really, really supportive. And I think going through this journey of, you know, like, founding a company together, it's obviously very challenging. And so I feel very fortunate to have two sisters who have already gone through it once, you know? >>So for the other guests is trying to get on the cube here. Over there. Um, sounds like fun. Uh, Christine. So on the city labs, you gotta cheque side of it there in the in the property tech. That's exciting. How's it going over there? >>Uh, super, Super cool. Super fun. Uh, has been one heck of a journey building a company from scratch, let alone in tech. I think you know, we created K s K C d lives because we really wanted to modernise the real estate industry, uh, and create, like, super transformative solutions, uh, many for two reasons. You know, one is to improve the quality of life, um, of the community around us. Uh, and secondly, really to harness all the technology and this unused data right in the real estate industry. And try and say, how can we use that to make more intelligent business decisions? Yeah, so So really, Um, I guess for us, it's been really exciting because we've launched two products. Uh, you know, one of which is Ai driven, dynamic pricing engine. And we realised that actually, the way that homes are priced today, uh, in real estate is super RK right? You only use a few basic variables. Like, how big is your house? What views do you have? But then we realised that, actually hey, with a I where you suddenly can use, like, hundreds of variables, um, and even, you know, consisting of wellness variables, for example. Um, and you can really customise pricing all the way down to a single unit level. Uh, and we realise that by doing this, we could actually unlock, um, ferret prices for our customers while also constantly kind of tracking the financial health of the company. >>Awesome. Cindy, I wanna get you in here. A co founder, Sunday Insurance. That was the origination. But a lot of change data drives everything machine learning. You gotta have the state of the art. What's going on with you? >>Yeah, I think for us, essentially, uh, we're operating in a very old industry. Um, it's one of the oldest industries globally. And if you look at the entire insurance value chain, um, every part of the process can actually, it's all about data. You can. It can be disrupted. Um, but yet every inch of the value chain is also regulated. So I think essentially what we're trying to do is, um, we're trying to really innovate the customer journey. So imagine if, um, even in the States now and even coming back to Asia, a lot of how people buy insurance is still very face to face agency. But I think in the future is going to be remote online on your app, through any partners as well. So I think, uh, we're trying to adopt any machine learning to really scale and automate, uh, the journey of anyone who's trying to buy insurance. But at the same time for insurance companies were also trying to help them automate that function itself. So imagine if banks are trying to dish out loans and you're trying to predict. What's the credit risk of every, um, single customer? That's exactly what insurance company needs to do as well. Um, And I guess insurance is all about buying a service as well. >>It's unlike you >>know, I'm gonna buy an apple. It comes to the hardware, >>right? So we're >>selling a service. So essentially you're service has to also dramatically changed. And I think these days, especially when we're operating in, uh, Thailand, Indonesia is one of the highest adoption rates for mobile these days. Everyone does. Everything lives on on the apps. So, um, insurance companies also needs to really on board their journey on that as well as increased engagement. So I don't just want to be an insurance company where, um, I speak to you and I have an issue with my claim. I want to really build a relationship with you and engage you differently. So I think it's actually that's the mission for a Sunday. So I think Imagine if imagine an insurance company 50 years in the future. How would it be? Uh, that's our mission. >>This is a great example. You guys, First of all, you're very dynamic. Thanks for sharing your storey. But when you get into the tech here, if industries that are transforming because of the digital transformation, the consumers expect the apps. You guys, as co founders and entrepreneurs now running this big business have to meet the demands and leverage the technology. How have you done that? How are you guys manage that? What kinds of decisions have you made? And you share some either experiences or observations of how to navigate and how you're riding that wave. >>Yeah. So I think if you hear from what Cindy and Christine has just mentioned, I mean, uh, we were playing in, you know, two of the oldest and largest industries in the world. Real estate and insurance. And, uh, you know, in both industries, as I said earlier, you know, it's really all about the customers, right? Um you know, in in the past, we used to think of of businesses as you know, what's your vertical and the horizontal today? Um, at least four k s k and and and all the all these, um, you know, tech ventures that we are now venture building. We're really thinking about it from the customer land. So really thinking about it from a customer ecosystem perspective. So instead of, you know, creating products and and having that push out to the customers, you know, we use tech and data and and especially data today and the right amount of data and what type of data that we want understanding that and really, um, building that product and really the services, uh, for the customers. So once you know the customer enters our ecosystem, whether you know, in your real estate, um, ecosystem or whether it's in your insurance ecosystem, we want you to to continue to stay with us, um, and to trust us. Um, and so it's not just about selling you a product, but really, you know, like, what Cindy says building a relationship with you because we think that, you know, obviously you know when insurance is something you really need when when when things go wrong in your life, we don't only want to be there. When things go wrong in your life and for real estate, you know everybody needs a shelter. So so so that's why we think that building relationships are very important and from really true, that lands is when you really think about the ecosystem and you think about data. I think Cindy Increasing gave some examples of how we're approaching it. Um, a lot of people start from from from a, you know, from a traditional business and from within. But for us, um, we decided to actually take it outside. Um, and, you know, take the approach of venture building from a startup, um, but really have, on the back end, really have that Connexion to the core businesses. Because what the core businesses understand is, you know, lifetime and experience of how customers feel and and, you know, um, in insurance, it's really about how to run a financial institution in real estate is really how to build buildings, and that is something that we can't take away. But, you know, you use technology to enable and to power. But what venture and start ups do extremely well is really the way we are extremely nimble and the way you use tech and data to navigate the quick changes of customer demands. And and you know, one thing an app and it's all about quick iterations. Right? When you build a super app, how do you incorporate all the features that are coming in, you have to keep on, you know, iterating changing, innovating, um, and innovating small with quick wins and then taking on a larger scale. And so the way we position ourselves is when you have to start up and you combine that with the core. Um, and putting the two together is how, how, how we look at things and that four minutes, the whole ecosystem >>that's awesome and being agile as fast and speed is key if you want to be there. Startup. But at the core business, that's going kind of slow. You got to kind of make everything go faster. That's a great, great insight. Let's talk about the disruption of the property industry again. That's real estate now with the Internet of things, technologies and also people expect technology. They wanna have access. I don't wanna have all these passwords and, you know they want to have easy in and out. They want good efficiency, save money. What's the disruption angle on? Um, the property neck. Christine, what's your How do you see that? The big disruption going? >>Yeah. So I think as Johann already mentioned before, you know um I think our customers we know are becoming, um, digital natives. Right? And they expect very convenient lifestyles. And we're all about our customers. So, actually, that's why we launched also another product, right where we're taking all of these things that you just mentioned, you know, about Iot into account. So what we found is, um, that actually, today, um, you know, the village about real estate is that we all live through that life as well, so we can experience that. Uh, we found that residents today, um, they find it quite challenging to request, you know, basic services like housekeeping managing, um, their defects, their tenants. Um, you know, even the financial planning and even getting into the building, right, they want more convenience. Um, but we realised that actually, all these services in the real estate industry right now and even in the prop tech space, they are very, very segmented. They're all discussed across multiple different apps. So what we really try to do is hey, let's try and consolidate all of this into one single app, which we have done, which is really cool, And it helps our residents really stay engaged and connected with our property. Um, what we did also was on the Iot front. We we were actually the first developer in Malaysia to also integrate, You know, future proof solutions like remote lift calling as well, um, into the mobile app. And that's to really go like, push on the Iot front. For us as well. >>Must be great for retention. It's all the gadgets are built into the of course. You have good WiFi fibre in their everyone's got good band with >>for sure >>It's like water and plumbing. Uh, I'd like to get everyone everyone loves that. I gotta ask Now, on the on the on the on The disruption is great. Now you've got the clouds, the clouds here for actually Amazon. You guys are big customer because you guys can move fast and they do all the heavy lifting. How are you guys seeing that helped modernise in the industry of insurance? Because that's a big vertical for a W s and you guys are doing is Cindy. What is the What is the modernisation? Um, half that you guys have taken with a W s. >>Yeah, sure. So I think essentially, for insurance, it's a product development. And when we talk about product development means, um how do you price, um, every certain individual or company very differently, right, Because everyone has very different risks surrounding them. Uh, currently, what we face is that it's a flat pricing fixed pricing. Um, and it's not really personalised to you. If you are a very good behaviour and safe kind of customer, it doesn't translate to any premium savings for you. Um, so I think, uh, part of insurance is to give, for example, affordable access to health care. But if your premiums isn't sustainable for health insurance, then it doesn't really need the point. So, uh, for Sunday, like, how we're trying to trying to do it differently is, for example, we use some AWS cloud solutions and AWS Lambda too, really power our machine learning Savalas and Cloud infrastructure. So, for example, uh, Sunday we are a serious bee companies sober and the growth stage. So at any point in time, we need to ensure that our infrastructure is able to support a huge spike in transaction volume, and we're working with large scale partners like telcos, e commerce companies, or even within our organic channels. So our AI machine learning risk prediction model, which is basically, um, powering our premium pricing engines whenever there's any requests coming in front of the Web for foreign quotation. For example, if someone wants to buy health insurance, um, it can go up and spike. But also, the data model is actually pricing, uh, processing billions of calculations, ingesting a lot of data points. Uh, it needs to do that within seconds, so yeah, I think a w s. We've been using it from day one since we launched. It's been, uh, helping us on >>that and make it go faster. That's the big thing. I gotta ask you when you guys have this family business now, three decades, you got a lot going on extending that legacy and sustaining the family legacy. I love the Storey. So who decides whether to do the startup and you guys draw straws? Is that you guys flip a coin? You gotta who runs the big business? How do you guys decide that? Mm. >>Um, maybe I'll >>I >>would say maybe it came very naturally to us. Really? I guess Here we don't have to disclose. Our age is a little bit, so I mean, I mean, we all actually the background and really all three of us. Before we came into the family business, we were all working professionals in very different fields. I was a I was in banking. Cindy was a lawyer, and Christine was a a doctor, actually, Um um, but, you know, I came back first. I'm the eldest, so after, you know, walking outside and looking into the family business. So I came back first, and and And from there, I took over the insurance business and looking at it, it was a very lonely place to be. So, um, you know, after a couple of years of Cindy being a professional life, you know, we said, Hey, would you like to come back? And let's, uh, take a different journey with insurance and see how we can build something different? Uh, since we know a lot about insurance, but let's make make make a difference and and and, you know, be sustainable, but also evolve over time and show the world that insurance is actually pretty sexy, actually. Um, and then, you know, Christine saw the fund that the two of us were having, uh, already started building a real estate on on my end. Uh, and then, uh, she came back. And, you know, we have a conversation, and we said, Look, looking at you know what we're doing in Sunday? You know, building pricing engines and being able to price to a single customer level. Um, we saw that opportunity in real estate, and, uh so I asked her. I said, Look, would you like to do this? You know, because I think there is something cool. Um, the three of us can band together and still inspire each other share ideas across each other. That's an opportunity that a lot of people don't get right. I mean, to all these industries in the world being able to cross share ideas. Uh, and sometimes inspirations and ideas don't come from the same industry. Uh, and so I think. And that's how we started. Really, John, it's not. Maybe we're lucky, and we should be grateful for >>that. You're all power women. I love the storey, and it is good that you come together, and I think the entrepreneurial kind of twist makes it more fun. But not everyone is cut out with the entrepreneurship, but it also gives you more risk management. You can. You can go after opportunities I love. I love the strategy there. You guys are great leaders. Any advice for other aspiring women leaders and entrepreneurs out there who want to make a difference? Make an impact? The world is. Change is getting better for everyone. And and again, entrepreneurial could be in big companies and also big companies doing startups. There's a whole new world. What advice would you guys give other aspiring women leaders? Okay, >>I'll keep it short from my end. I think for me it's about really following your passion following your ambition. And lastly, I think not to try and not feel like you need to conform to any gender stereotypes because I think in male dominated industries such as real estate, our are attack. I think people might have some ideas about you know what a what a tech leader or what a real estate leader might have to look like. But you don't have to conform to that. So that's probably my advice. Uh, >>yeah, I I fully agree with Chris right there. I think, um, gender isn't an issue here. If you have a passion and you identify, there is a market opportunity that you can, you know, you can really do something about it. Just just pursue it. I think most importantly, if you ever want to be an entrepreneur and start your own business or your own, start up. Uh, so long as you have the confidence, I think you're you're good to go. Um, there's a lot of talk out that that or, you know, um, women led start ups are not >>attracting >>funds, but we haven't faced that anyway. In this part of Asia, I think there's a lot of, um, I think it attracts even more attention. If you're a woman in a male dominated that industry like, hey, then you know it's it's quite unique. So I think you have a strength there, and I think there's a lot of diverse talent out there. Um, post pandemic. A lot of people are looking for changes as well, so I think it is a lot of a lot of opportunity out there. >>Yeah, Joanne, you know, you know, the thing is with cloud computing, it's a level centre. It really because if you can come together, whether it's sisters like you guys, powerful sisters and professional experience coming together leverage technology to re factor old industries. It's all about the numbers and the performance. At the end of the day, you know, you move faster and you take territory and beat the competition. >>Ultimate >>the ultimate uh, leveller. Well, congratulations. You guys are great. Thanks for coming on The Cube Sisters. You guys are amazing. Great Storey Love it. Thanks for coming out and celebrating International Women's Day feature today as part of our international women's showcase here in the Cube. Thank you so much. >>Thank you. Thank you for having us. >>Okay. The Cubes International Women's showcase Going on all year, this time featuring International Women's Day The big celebration. I'm John Ferrier, host of the Cube here in Palo Alto, California. Thanks for watching. Mm mm

>>Welcome to the cubes, continuing coverage of AWS reinvent 2021 find Lisa Martin and we are running one of the industry's most important and largest hybrid tech events with AWS in this ecosystem partners. This year, we have two live sets, two remote sites over 100 guests talking about the next decade in cloud innovation. And we're excited to be joined by Patrick Jeanne, the CTO of OutSystems Patrick. Welcome to the program. >>Thank you. I appreciate being one of those 100 guests, >>One of the 100, one of the elite, 100, we'll say it like that. Right? So, so OutSystems has some revolutionary news. You guys are saying, you know, what developer experience needs to change? Tell us more. >>It does. I mean, it needs to change. And I've been in the industry developing applications for too many years dimensions basically since I was 12 years old writing software and, you know, going over that time and thinking about it, doing the traditional software development route. So many applications that take too long was, you know, costly to build so much risk involved in it. Eventually it didn't meet all the requirements. And if you look at the investment we make in software, which is important, I mean, software is a, is a unique differentiator for, for businesses. That investment has such a high risk and a high cost, and that needs to change and it needs to change just because of the complexity that is in that process inherent in it that's. And that is what we are doing and OutSystems is tackling that problem. And, um, from a business standpoint, it must change. >>It must change that that is strong words there. So talk to me about what you're announcing, what, what were the gaps in the market customer feedback? Was it, or were there any catalysts from the pandemic going we've got to change this developer experience and this is the time >>For sure. I mean, if you think about from the pandemic and I mean, we were on a journey for digital transformation. We've been on this journey for a number of years and it really accelerated that the experiences that we have with each other, with you and me, we're not the same studio today. I mean, there's there reasons that we have used this experience remote, we have a technology that can do it, the pandemic accelerated that. And so, so much of the experiences we have are digital experiences. And if you think about it, there's a device in between us. There's going to be a device in between all the people viewing what we're looking at, that experience that, uh, that they will have with us will be basically surfaced through an application on that device. And the pandemic has really accelerated that. And that's an area that we play in, obviously for what's considered low code application development. >>And if you just think about application development in general, that's what powers all of these experiences. And going back to that, you know, statement about that, it needs to change if we need these experiences to be diverse, if we need these experiences to be meaningful, if we need them to make sure that when people engage, as far as what that device is, something that brings, you know, delight and pleasure to them, we need developers across the board. Investing in that today, there is a very constrained market for professional developers, but because of the inherent complexity in software development. And so if you think about how that's almost almost you're limiting access to the people who can create those experiences, that's not a good situation. There's about 25 million developers in the world that would consider themselves developers today, 7, 8, 9, 10 billion devices out there. Think of that disparity between those two numbers. >>And so we need a larger number of people to actually develop applications. So that experience can be much more diverse. We need to expose development to many more people. That is the problem today with software development is that it is complex. It is too specialized. It's too inherit as far as with failure when you get it together. And so either you shy away from that as an organization or as an individual to do development, or you go on these very long development as far as cycles to actually create these applications. What we do is we take the approach of let's make it very simple to get into, you know, some terms and call it citizen developer, low code, basically all they're saying is let's, let's reduce the risk of development. Let's go into a process where we make it accessible to more and more people. You can go through and develop applications with the lower risk. You can build change into that process and you can get value into end users as rapidly as possible. So that's, that is the value proposition. That is what needs to change >>Strong value proposition well said, Patrick, talking about reducing the complexity, uh, the risk as well. So, so go ahead and crack crack open what you guys are actually announcing today. >>Yeah, for sure. So with, we we've been doing this for many years, we have, um, software development, we have 14 million plus as far as end-users using applications that have been developed with the Al systems platform, what we're announcing is taking some of the great benefits that we have to what you'd consider as the first part of that low code process, where you have a, you have a developer that has an idea, and there's a canvas in front of you. You know, you're, you're an artist, right? But again, this is what you are as a developer. And so you go in and you create that application. We've been doing this for many years and it works really well. But thing that we're improving upon now is the ability to do that and scale that out to millions of end-users 10 millions of end-users. So if you think about that inherent speed of developing an application, using a platform like OutSystems, we're taking that same concept and rolling that into an internet scale application, hosting architecture. >>So any developer that uses our systems, basically like it would be comparable to a traditional development team that has application architects, cloud architects, security, engineers, database engineers, a whole team of very smart individuals that generally the, the biggest technology companies in the world can put together. Most companies can't do that. You don't have access to that type of that type of skillset. And so we're providing that with project Neo, which is what we're announcing today in our, um, at our user conference and customer conference, is this brand new as far as platform that allows you to build these applications at scale. And this is initially built on AWS using all the great AWS technologies. If you look at what AWS has done and provided to developers today, it's amazing. It is absolutely amazing. The amount of technologies that you can leverage. It's also daunting because as a traditional developer, you have to go in and choose, you know, what do you do? It's like, there's just massive cognitive load as far as upfront when you're going to design and application and what type of messaging what's at the data store. Well, how do I host my application? What type of network, you know, as far as security do I use, we're taking all that heavy lifting, all that undifferentiated, heavy lifting off of the developers, putting it into the project, Neo platform, allowing a single developer or a small group of developers to actually leverage that best in class architecture on AWS today. >>So when you're talking to developers, what are some of the things that you described as the unique differentiators of project Neo? It sounds like this was really apt and apt time for change, but when you're talking to those folks, what do you say? You know, 1, 2, 3, these are the things that make project Neo unique. >>Yeah. So you're the first is don't worry about the application architecture. Like I mentioned, don't when you go in that, the idea, the concept of that application and what it means to, to deliver some value, whether it's into a business or a hobby or whatever. I mean, however, you're developing application, you're doing it for a reason. You want that value to come out as quickly as possible. You want that experience. And so that first thing is you don't have to worry about the architecture anymore. So in the past, you know, you'd have to think about if it's a very large application, it's millions and millions of end-users. How do you structure that? How do you put it together? That concern is removed from you in that process? The other thing is we solve the problem of software disintegration. So with traditional development, when you develop an application and you get it into the hands of end, users get immediately starts to disintegrate. >>So there will be bugs that will appear. There will be, as far as, um, security flaws that will come up services that you use will become deprecated. We'll swap out cloud services, you know, AWS or Azure or Google, we'll swap out cloud services with different services behind the scenes version that we new versions of those that is software disintegration. As soon as you develop software today and all of these beautiful cloud services that you use and components, they often something will become outdated almost by the time you release it. A lot of times with software development projects, it literally is you start with some version or some component before you can get that out in a traditional mode. Something becomes outdated. We solve that issue. What I like to call software disintegration, we, as far as our systems, ensure we invest in that platform. And so when we need to change out those components, so services, those versions fix is for a security flaws, fixed bugs. >>We do that and it seamless. And so your application, you do not have to rewrite your application. You do not have to go through that process as a tradition, as a developer on our systems like you would, as your traditional developer, we solve that software disintegration issue. So it is it's, it's very empowering to developers to not have to worry about that. There are many, you look at the numbers today about how much is invested in innovation versus maintenance. You know, a lot of companies start out at 70% innovation, 30% as far as maintenance. And then over time that flips and you'll get to 30% of your time spent on innovations development, 70% maintenance, that burden we removed that burden. >>Those are some really powerful statements protect that you mean, I really liked the way that you described software disintegration. I've actually never heard that term before. And it kind of reminded me of, you know, when you buy a brand new car, you drive it off. The lot the value goes down right away, then before you even get things out. And on the consumer side, we know that as soon as we buy the newest iPhone, the next one's going to be out, or there's some part of it, that's going to be outdated in terms of technical debt. I was reading a stat that technical debt is expected to reach and costs businesses 5 trillion us dollars over the next 10 years. How does OutSystems helps customers address the challenges with technical debt and even reduce it? >>Yeah. If you think about the guy, the truest sense of technical debt, it's a, it's a decision that you make in the development process to basically, you know, load up the future with some work that you don't want to do right now. And so we're solving that issue where number one, we, you don't even have to make that decision. So you can go back to that concept of removing that cognitive load of, do I get the software out right now or do I get it out in the right way? And that's really what technical debt technical debt is saying. I need to get it out now. And there are some things I want to do that it'd be better if I did them now, but I'm going to go ahead and push that out into the future. You don't have to do that today with us. >>And so what happens with our systems? We invest in that platform, and this is hard. I mean, this is not an easy thing to do. This is why we have some of the best and brightest engineers focusing on this process at the heart of this, not to get too technical, but the heart of this is what we call the true change engine. But then, um, within our platform, we go through and we look at all of the changes that you need to make. So if you think of that concept of technical debt of like, oh, I want to get this into the hands of man users, but I don't want to invest in the time to do something right. It's always done right. As far as with the OutSystems platform. So we take that, we look at the intent of your change. So it's like a, it's like a process where you tell us the intent. >>When you, as a application developer, you're designing an application, you tell us the intent of the application is to look and feel. It could be some business processes can be some integrations. We determine what's the best way to do that. And then once again, from a software disintegration standpoint, we continue to invest in all the right ways to do that the best way possible. And so, I mean, we have customers that have written applications. That's 10, 15 years ago, they're still using our platform with those same applications they've added to them, but they actually have not rewritten those applications. And so if you think about the normal traditional development process, the technical debt incurred over that type of lifetime would be enormous with us. There's no technical debt. They're still using the same application. They have simply added capabilities to it. We invest in that platform. So they don't have to >>So big business outcomes there, obviously from a developer productivity perspective, but from the company wide perspective, the ability to eliminate technical debt, some significant opportunities there. Talk to me about the existing OutSystems customers. When are they going to be able to take advantage of this? What is the migration or upgrade path that they can take? >>Yeah. And so it's, it was very important to me and, and, uh, and the team, as far as our systems, to be able to integrate, to innovate as far as for customers, without disrupting customers. And we've probably all been through this path of great new technology is awesome. But then to actually utilize that technology when you're a current customer, it creates pain. And so we've invested heavily in making sure that the process is pain-free so you can use project Niamh. So we are announcing it as it was in public preview, as far as now, and then we will release it from GA as far as in the first quarter of next year. So over this timeframe, you'll be able to get in and try it out and all that continue to use your current version, which is OutSystems 11. So what we, what we affectionately call it 11, as far as Alice systems, Al systems, 11 version, and continued to use, and you can continue to use that today. >>Side-by-side and coexistence with the project, Neo and project Neo is a code name. So we will, we will have an official product name is for as at launch, but it's our it's. Our affectionate is kind of a unofficial mascot as Neo. So we call it project Neo bit of a fun thing, and you can use it side by side. And then in the future, you'll be able to migrate applications over, or you can just continue to coexist. I mean, we see a very long lifetime for OutSystems 11, it's a different platform, different technology behind the scenes project, Neos, Kubernetes base, Lennox containers. Based once again on the bill, we went in with the, just looked at it and said, rearchitect re-imagined, how would you do this? If you had the best and brightest, as far as engineers, architects, um, you know, we have, which we do, you know, very smart in those people. >>And we did that. And so we did that for our customers. And so Neo is that how systems 11 still a great choice. If you have applications on it, you can use it. And we have, we anticipate that customers will actually side by side, develop on both in which we have some customers in preview today. And that's the process that they have. They will develop on 11, they will develop on the Neo and they will continue to do that. And there's no, we, we are dedicated to making sure that there's no disruption and no pain in that process. And then when customers are ready to migrate over, if that's what they choose, we'll help them migrate over. >>You make it sound easy. And I was wondering if project Neo had anything to do with the new matrix movie, I just saw the trailer for it the other day. >>It was a happy coincidence. It is not easy. Let me, let me be clear. It is something we have been working on for three years and really this last year really kicked into high gear. And, um, you know, a lot of behind the scenes work, obviously for us, but once again, that's our value proposition. It's we do the hard work. So developers and customers don't have to do that hard work, uh, but no relations in the L I love, I do love the matrix movies. So it's a, it's a nice coincidence. >>It is a nice coincidence. Last question, Patrick, for you, you know, as we wrap up the calendar year 2021, we head into 20, 22. I think we're all very hopeful that 2022 will be a better year than the last two. What are some of the things that you see as absolutely critical for enterprises? What are they most concerned about right now? >>Yeah, I think it's look, I mean, it's, obviously it has been a crazy couple of years. And, um, and if you think about what enterprises want, I mean, they want to provide, uh, a great experiences for their customers, a great experience for their employees. Once again, digital transformation, we're where you don't even kind of talk about digital transformation more because we're in it. And I think that customers need to make sure that the experiences they provide these digital experiences are the best possible experiences. And these are differentiators. These are differentiators for employees is, are differentiators for customers. I believe that software is one of the big differentiators for businesses today and going forward, and that will continue to be so we're where businesses may be invested in supply chains and invested in certain types of technologies. Business will continue to invest in software because software is that differentiator. >>And if you look at where we fit, you can go, you can go buy, you know, some great satisfied where my software as a service off the shelf in the end, you're just like every other business you bought the same thing that everybody else has bought. You can go the traditional development route, where you invest a bunch of money. It's a high risk, takes a long time. And once again, you may not get what you want. We believe what is most important to businesses. Get that unique software that fits like a glove that is great for employees is great for their customers. And it is a unique differentiator for them. And I really see that in 2022, that's going to be big and, and going forward. They're the legs for that type of investment that companies make and their return on that is huge. >>I agree with you on that in terms of software as a differentiator. No, we're seeing every company become a software company in every industry these days to be first to survive in the last 20 months and now to be competitive, it's really kind of a must have. So Patrick, thank you for joining me on the program, talking about project Neo GA in quarter of calendar year 22 exciting stuff. We appreciate your feedback and your insights and congratulations on project Neil. Thanks, Lisa. Appreciate it for Patrick Jean I'm Lisa Martin, and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of re-invent 2021.

(Upbeat intro music) >> Welcome to theCUBE's continuing coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm Lisa Martin and we are running one of the industry's most important and largest hybrid tech events with AWS in this ecosystem partners this year. We have two live sets, two remote sets over 100 guests talking about the next decade in cloud innovation. And we're excited to be joined by Patrick Jean the CTO of OutSystems, Patrick welcome to the program. >> Thank you, I appreciate being one of those 100 guests. >> One of the 100, one of the elite 100, we'll say it like that, right? >> Yes. >> So OutSystems has some revolutionary news. You guys are saying, you know what, developer experience needs to change, tell us more. >> It does I mean, it needs to change. And I've been in the industry developing applications for too many years to mention, basically since I was 12 years old writing software and going over that time and thinking about it, doing the traditional software development route. So many applications that take too long was costly to build, so much risk involved in it. Eventually it didn't meet all the requirements. And if you look at the investment we make in software, which is important, I mean, software is a unique differentiator for businesses. That investment has such a high-risk and a high cost and that needs to change. And it needs to change just because of the complexity that is in that process inherent in it. That's and that is what we are doing in OutSystems is tackling that problem. And from a business standpoint, it must change. >> It must change that is strong words there. So talk to me about what you're announcing what were the gaps in the market, customer feedback, were there any catalysts from the pandemic going we've got to change this developer experience and this is the time. >> For sure. I mean, if you think about from the pandemic and I mean, we were on a journey for digital transformation. We've been on this journey for a number of years the pandemic really accelerated that the experiences that we have with each other, you and me are not in the same studio today. I mean, there reasons that we use this experience remotely. We have a technology that can do it. The pandemic accelerated that. And so, so much of the experiences we have are digital experiences. And if you think about it, there's a device in between us. There's going to be a device in between all the people viewing what we're looking at. That experience that they will have with us will be basically surfaced through an application on that device. And the pandemic has really accelerated that. And that's an area that we play in, obviously for what's considered low-code application development. And if you just think about application development in general, that's what powers all of these experiences. And going back to that statement about that it needs to change. If we need these experiences to be diverse, if we need these experiences to be meaningful, if we need them to make sure that when people engage as far as what that device is something that brings, delight and pleasure to them. We need developers across the board investing in that. Today there is a very constrained market for professional developers because of the inherent complexity in software development. And so if you think about how that's almost, almost here limiting access to the people who can create those experiences, that's not a good situation. There's about 25 million developers in the world that would consider themselves developers today, seven, eight, nine, 10 billion devices out there. Think of that disparity between those two numbers. And so we need a larger number of people to actually develop applications so that experience can be much more diverse. We need to expose development to many more people. That is the problem today with software development is that it is complex, it is too specialized. It's too inherent as far with failure when you get it together. And so either you shy away from that as an organization or as an individual. To do development are you going on these very long development as far as cycles to actually create these applications? What we do is we take the approach of let's make it very simple to get into. Sometimes we call it citizen developer, low-code, basically all they're saying is let's reduce the risk of development. Let's go into a process where we make it accessible to more and more people. You can go through and develop applications with the lower risk. You can build change into that process. You can get value into end users as rapidly as possible. So that is the value proposition, that is what needs to change. >> Strong value proposition well said, Patrick. Talking about reducing the complexity, the risk as well. So go ahead and crack open what you guys are actually announcing today. >> Yeah, for sure. So we've been doing this for many years. We have software development, we have 14 million plus as far as end-users using applications that have been developed with the Allo systems platform. What we're announcing is taking some of the great benefits that we have to what you'd consider as the first part of that low-code process. Where you have a developer that has an idea, and there's a canvas in front of you. You're an artist, right, with a canvas that's what you are as a developer. And so you go in and you create that application. We've been doing this for many years and it worked really well. The thing that we're improving upon now is the ability to do that and scale that out to millions of end-users, 10 millions of end-users. So if you think about that inherent speed of developing an application, using a platform like OutSystems, we're taking that same concept and rolling that into an internet scale application, hosting architecture. So any developer that uses OutSystems, basically like it would be comparable to a traditional development team that has application architects, cloud architects, security engineers, database engineers, a whole team of very smart individuals that generally the biggest technology companies in the world can put together. Most companies can't do that, you don't have access to that type of skillset. And so we're providing that with Project Neo, which is what we're announcing today in our, at our user conference and customer conference. Is this brand new as far as platform that allows you to build these applications at scale. And this is initially built on AWS using all the great AWS technologies. If you look at what AWS has done and provided to developers today, it's amazing. It is absolutely amazing. The amount of technologies that you can leverage. It's also daunting because as a traditional developer, you have to go in and choose what do you do? It's like, there's just massive cognitive load. As far as upfront when you go in to design an application. What's up in messaging, what's up at data store, well, how do I host my application? What type of network as far as security do I use? We're taking all that heavy lifting, all that undifferentiated heavy lifting off of the developers, putting it into the Project Neo platform. Allowing a single developer or a small group of developers to actually leverage that best in class architecture on AWS today. >> So when you're talking to developers, what are some of the things that you describe as the unique differentiators of Project Neo? It sounds like this was really apt and apt time for change. But when you're talking to those folks, what do you say you know, one, two three, these are the things that make Project Neo unique. >> Yeah, so the first is don't worry about the application architecture. Like I mentioned when you go in, the idea, the concept of that application and what it means to deliver some value, whether it's into a business or a hobby or whatever. I mean, however you're developing application, you're doing it for a reason. You want that value to come out as quick as possible. You want that experience. And so that first thing is, you don't have to worry about the architecture anymore. So in the past you'd have to think about if it's a very large application, it's millions and millions of end-users. How do you structure that? How do you put it together? That concern is removed from you in that process. The other thing is we solve the problem of software disintegration. So with traditional development, when you develop an application and you get it into the hands of end users it immediately starts to disintegrate. So there will be bugs that will appear. There will be as far as security flaws that will come up services that you use will become deprecated. We'll swap out cloud services by AWS or Azure or Google. swap out cloud services with different services behind the scenes. Version, there'll be new versions of those that is software disintegration. As soon as you develop software today and all of these beautiful cloud services that you use and components. Something will become outdated almost by the time you release it. A lot of times with software development projects, it literally is you start with some version or some component before you can get that out in a traditional mode, something becomes outdated. We solved that issue. What I like to call software disintegration. We, as far as OutSystems, ensure we invest in that platform. And so when we may need to change out those components, those services, those versions fix is for security flaws, fixed bugs, we do that and it's seamless. And so your application, you do not have to rewrite your application. You do not have to go through that process as a tradition, as a developer on OutSystems like you would, as your traditional developer. We solve that software disintegration issue. So it's very empowering to developers to not have to worry about that. There are many, you look at the numbers today about how much is invested in innovation versus maintenance. A lot of companies start out at 70% innovation, 30% as far as maintenance, and then overtime that flips. And you'll get to 30% of your time spent on innovations development, 70% maintenance, that burden, we remove that burden. >> Those were some really powerful statements Patrick that you made and I really liked the way that you described software disintegration. I've actually never heard that term before. And it kind of reminded me of when you buy a brand new car, you drive it off the lot, the value goes down right away then before you even get things out. And on the consumer side, we know that as soon as we buy the newest iPhone, the next one's going to be out, or there's some part of it, that's going to be outdated. In terms of technical debt, I was reading a stat that technical debt is expected to reach in costs of businesses, 5 trillion, US dollars over the next 10 years. How does OutSystems help customers address the challenges with technical debt and even reduce it? >> Yeah, I mean if you think about in the kind of the truest sense of technical debt, it's a decision that you make in the development process to basically load up the future with some work that you don't want to do right now. And so we're solving that issue where not only, you don't even have to make that decision. So you can go back to that concept of removing that cognitive load of, do I get the software out right now or do I get it out in the right way? And that's really what technical debt, technical debt is saying I need to get it out now. And there are some things I want to do that it'd be better if I did them now, but I'm going to go ahead and push that out into the future. You don't have to do that today with us. And so what happens with OutSystems is we invest in that platform. And this is hard. I mean, this is not an easy thing to do. This is why we have some of the best and brightest engineers focusing on this process at the heart of this, not to get too technical, but the heart of this is what we call the true change engine within our platform. We go through and we look at all of the changes that you need to make. So you think of that concept of technical debt of like, ah, I want to get this in the hands of end users, but I don't want to invest in the time to do something right. It's always done right, as far as with the OutSystems platform. So we take that, we look at the intent of your change. So it's like a process where you tell us the intent. When you as a application developer, you're designing an application, you tell us the intent of the application is to look and feel. It could be some business processes this could be some integrations. We determine what's the best way to do that and then once again, from a software disintegration standpoint, we continue to invest in all the right ways to do that the best way possible. And so, I mean, we have customers that have written applications that's 10, 15 years ago. They're still using our platform with those same applications they've added to them, but they have not rewritten those applications. And so if you think about the normal traditional development process, the technical debt incurred over that type of lifetime would be enormous. With us there's no technical debt. They're still using the same application they've simply added capabilities to it. We invest in that platform so they don't have to. >> So big business outcomes down, obviously from a developer productivity perspective, but from the company wide perspective, the ability to eliminate technical debt, some significant opportunities there. Talk to me about the existing OutSystems customers. When are they going to be able to take advantage of this? What is the migration or upgrade path that they can take and when? >> Yeah and so it is very important to me and the team as far as OutSystems to be able to integrate, to innovate as far as for customers, without disrupting customers. And we've probably all been through this path of great new technology is awesome. But then to actually utilize that technology when you're a current customer, it creates pain. And so we've invested heavily in making sure that the process is pain-free. So you can use Project Neo. So we are announcing it as in, it was in public preview as far as now, and then we will release it from GA as far as in the first quarter of next year. So over this timeframe, you'll be able to get in and try it out and all that. Continue to use your current version, which is OutSystems 11. So what we affectionately call O-11, as far as Allo systems. The Allo systems 11 version continue to use, and you can continue to use that today side-by-side and coexistence with the Project Neo. And Project Neo is a code name. So we will have an official product name as for as at launch but it's our affectionate it's kind of a unofficial mascot as Neo. So we call the Project Neo is a little bit of a fun name and you can use it side by side and then in the future, you'll be able to migrate applications over. Or you can just continue to co-exist. I mean, we see a very long lifetime for OutSystems 11, it's a different platform, different technology behind the scenes. Project Neo's Kubernetes-base Linux containers. Based once again, on the ability, we went in with the gist and looked at it and said, re-architect, re-imagine, how would you do this if you had the best and brightest as far as engineers, architects, we have, which we do. Various market and those people and we did that. And so we did that for our customers. And so Neo is that OutSystems 11 still a great choice. If you have applications on it, you can use it. And we have, we anticipate the customers will actually side by side develop on both in which we have some customers in preview today. And that's the process that they have. They will develop on 11, they will develop on Neo and they will continue to do that. And there's no, we are dedicated to making sure that there's no disruption and no pain in that process. And then when customers are ready to migrate over, if that's what they choose, we'll help them migrate over. >> You make it sound easy. And I was wondering if Project Neo had anything to do with the new matrix movie I just saw the trailer for it the other day, I wonder if this is related. >> It was a happy coincidence. It is not easy let me, let me be clear. It is something we have been working on for three years and really this last year really kicked into high gear. And a lot of behind the scenes work, obviously for us, but once again, that's our value proposition. It's we do the hard work. So developers and the customers don't have to do that hard work. But no relations to Neo, I love, I do love the matrix movies. So it's a nice coincidence. (Lisa laughs) >> It is a nice coincidence. Last question, Patrick, for you, as we wrap up the calendar year 2021, we heading into 2022. I think we're all very hopeful that 2022 will be a better year than the last two. What are some of the things that you see as absolutely critical for enterprises? What are they most concerned about right now? >> Yeah, I think it's, look I mean, it's obviously it has been a crazy a couple of years. And if you think about what enterprises want, I mean, they want to provide a great experiences for their customers, a great experience for their employees. Once again, digital transformation, where you don't even kind of talk about digital transformation more because we're in it. And I think that customers need to make sure that the experiences they provide these digital experiences are the best possible experiences. And these are differentiators. These are differentiators for employees. These are differentiators for customers. I believe that software is one of the big differentiators for businesses today and going forward. And that will continue to be so where businesses may be invested in supply chains, invested in certain types of technologies. Business will continue to invest in software because software is that differentiator. And if you look at where we fit, you can go, you can go buy, some great set of software, my software as a service off the shelf. In the end, you're just like every other business you bought the same thing that everybody else had bought. You can go the traditional development route, where you invest a bunch of money, it's a high risk, takes a long time. And once again, you may not get what you want. We believe what is most important to businesses. Get that unique software that fits like a glove that is great for employees, it's great for their customers. And it is a unique differentiator for them. And I really see that in 2022, that's going to be big and going forward. They're the legs for that type of investment that companies make and they return on that is huge. >> I agree with you on that in terms of software as a differentiator. Now we're seeing every company become a software company in every industry these days to be, first to survive in the last 20 months and now to be competitive, it's really kind of a must have. So, Patrick thank you for joining me on the program, talking about Project Neo, GA in the first quarter of calendar year 22. Exciting stuff we appreciate your feedback and your insights and congratulations on Project Neo. >> Thanks, Lisa, appreciate it. >> For Patrick Jean, I'm Lisa Martin, and you're watching theCUBEs continuous coverage of re:Invent 2021. (Outro music)

(bright music) >> Hello everyone, welcome today's session for the "AWS Startup Showcase" presented by theCUBE, featuring ThoughtSpot for this track and data and analytics. I'm John Furrier, your host. Today, we're joined by Victor Chang, VP of ThoughtSpot Everywhere and Corporate Development for ThoughtSpot. Victor, thanks for coming on and thanks for presenting. Talking about this building interactive data apps through ThoughtSpot Everywhere. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, it's my pleasure to be here. >> So digital transformation is reality. We're seeing it large-scale. More and more reports are being told fast. People are moving with modern application development and if you don't have AI, you don't have automation, you don't have the analytics, you're going to get slowed down by other forces and even inside companies. So data is driving everything, data is everywhere. What's the pitch to customers that you guys are doing as everyone realizes, "I got to go faster, I got to be more secure," (laughs) "And I don't want to get slowed down." What's the- >> Yeah, thank you John. No, it's true. I think with digital transformation, what we're seeing basically is everything is done in the cloud, everything gets done in applications, and everything has a lot of data. So basically what we're seeing is if you look at companies today, whether you are a SaaS emerging growth startup, or if you're a traditional company, the way you engage with your customers, first impression is usually through some kind of an application, right? And the application collects a lot of data from the users and the users have to engage with that. So for most of the companies out there, one of the key things that really have to do is find a way to make sense and get value for the users out of their data and create a delightful and engaging experience. And usually, that's pretty difficult these days. You know, if you are an application company, whether it doesn't really matter what you do, if you're hotel management, you're productivity application, analytics is not typically your strong suit, and where ThoughtSpot Everywhere comes in is instead of you having to build your own analytics and interactivity experience with a data, ThoughtSpot Everywhere helps deliver a really self-service interactive experience and transform your application into a data application. And with digital transformation these days, all applications have to engage, all applications have to delight, and all applications have to be self-service. And with analytics, ThoughtSpot Everywhere brings that for you to your customers and your users. >> So a lot of the mainstream enterprises and even businesses from SMB, small businesses that are in the cloud are scaling up, they're seeing the benefits. What's the problem that you guys are targeting? What's the use case? When does a potential customer or customer know they get that ThoughtSpot is needed to be called in and to work with? Is it that they want low code, no code? Is it more democratization? What's the problem statement and how do you guys turn that problem being solved into an opportunity and benefit? >> I think the key problem we're trying to solve is that most applications today, when they try to deliver analytics, really when they're delivering, is usually a static representation of some data, some answers, and some insights that are created by someone else. So usually the company would present, you know, if you think about it, if you go to your banking application, they usually show some pretty charts for you and then it sparks your curiosity about your credit card transactions or your banking transactions over the last month. Naturally, usually for me, I would then want to click in and ask the next question, which transactions fall into this category, what time, you know, change the categories a bit, usually you're stuck. So what happens with most applications? The challenge is because someone else is asking the questions and then the user is just consuming static insights, you wet their appetite and you don't satisfy it. So application users typically get stunted, they're not satisfied, and then leave application. Where ThoughtSpot comes in, ThoughtSpots through differentiation is our ability to create an interactive curiosity journey with the user. So ThoughtSpot in general, if you buy a standalone, that's the experience that we really stand by, now you can deliberate your application where the user, any user, business user, untrained, without the help of an analyst can ask their own questions. So if you see, going back to my example, if it's in your banking app, you see some kind of visualization around expense actions, you can dig in. What about last month? What about last week? Which transactions? Which merchant? You know, all those things you can continue your curiosity journey so that the business user and the app user ask their questions instead of an analyst who's sitting in the company behind a desk kind of asking your questions for you. >> And that's the outcome that everyone wants. I totally see that and everyone kind of acknowledges that, but I got to then ask you, okay, how do you make that happen? Because you've got the developers who have essentially make that happen and so, the cloud is essentially SaaS, right? So you got a SaaS kind of marketplace here. The apps can be deployed very quickly, but in order to do that, you kind of need self-service and you got to have good analytics, right? So self-service, you guys have that. Now on the analytics side, most people have to build their own or use an existing tool and tools become specialists, you know what I'm saying? So you're in this kind of like weird cycle of, "Okay, I got to deploy and spend resource to build my own, which could be long and tiresome." >> Yeah. >> "And or rely on other tools that could be good, but then I have too many tools but that creates specialism kind of silos." These seems to be trends. Do you agree with that? And if customers have this situation, you guys come in, can you help there? >> Absolutely, absolutely. So, you know, if you think about the two options that you just laid out, that you could either roll your own, kind of build your own, and that's really hard. If you think about analyst industry, where 20, $30 billion industry with a lot of companies that specialize in building analytics so it's a really tough thing to do. So it doesn't really matter how big of a company you are, even if you're a Microsoft or an Amazon, it's really hard for them to actually build analytics internally. So for a company to try to do it on their own, hire the talent and also to come up with that interactive experience, most companies fail. So what ends up happening is you deliver the budget and the time to market ends up taking much longer, and then the experience is engaging for the users and they still end up leaving your app, having a bad impression. Now you can also buy something. They are our competitors who offer embedded analytics options as well, but the mainstream paradigm today with analytics is delivering. We talked about earlier static visualizations of insights that are created by someone else. So that certainly is an option. You know, where ThoughtSpot Everywhere really stands out above everything else is our technology is fundamentally built for search and interactive and cloud-scale data kind of an experience that the static visualizations today can't really deliver. So you could deliver a static dashboard purchase from one of our competitors, or if you really want to engage your users again, today is all about self-service, it's all about interactivity, and only ThoughtSpot's architecture can deliver that embedded in a data app for you. >> You know, one of the things I'm really impressed with you guys at ThoughtSpot is that you see data as I see strategic advantage for companies and people say that it's kind of a cliche but, or a punchline, and some sort of like business statement. But when you start getting into new kinds of workflows, that's the intellectual property. If you can enable people to essentially with very little low-code, no-code, or just roll their own analysis and insights from a platform, you're then creating intellectual property for the company. So this is kind of a new paradigm. And so a lot of CIO's that I talked to, or even CSOs on the security side of like, they kind of want this but maybe can't get there overnight. So if I'm a CIO, Victor, who do I, how do I point to on my team to engage with you guys? Like, okay, you sold me on it, I love the vision. This is definitely where we want to go. Who do I bring into the meeting? >> I think that in any application, in any company actually, there's usually product leaders and developers that create applications. So, you know, if you are a SaaS company, obviously your core product, your core product team would be the right team we want to talk to. If you're a traditional enterprise, you'd be surprised actually, how many traditional enterprises that been around for 50, 100 years, you might think of them selling a different product but actually, they have a lot of visual applications and product teams within their company as well. For example, you know, we have customers like a big tractor company. You can probably imagine who they might be. They actually have visual applications that they use ThoughtSpot to offer to the dealers so that they can look at their businesses with the tractors. We also have a big telecom company, for example, that you would think about telecom as a whole service but they have a building application that they offer to their merchants to track their billing. So what I'm saying is really, whether you're a software company where that's your core product, or you're a traditional enterprise that has visual applications underneath to support your core product, there's usually product teams, product leaders, and developers. Those are the ones that we want to talk to and we can help them realize a better vision for the product that they're responsible for. >> I mean, the reality is all applications need analytics, right, at some level. >> Yes. >> Full instrumentation at a minimum log everything and then the ability to roll that up, that's where I see people always telling me like that's where the challenge seems to be. Okay, I can log everything, but now how do I have a... And then after the fact that they say, "Give me a report, what's happening?" >> That's right. >> They get stuck. >> They get stuck 'cause you get that report and you know, someone else asked that question for you and you're probably a curious person. I'm a curious person. You always have that next question, and then usually if you're in a company, let's just say, you're a CIO. You're probably used to having a team of analysts at your fingertip so at least if you have a question, you don't like the report, you can find two people, five people they'll respond to your request. But if you're a business application user, you're sitting there, I don't know about you, but I don't remember the last time I actually went through and really found a support ticket in my application, or I really read a detailed documentation describing features in application. Users like to be self-taught, self-service and they like to explore it on their own. And there's no analyst there, there's no IT guy that they can lean on so if they get a static report of the data, they'll naturally always want to ask more questions, then they're stuck. So it's that kind of unsatisfying where, "I have some curiosity, you sparked by questions, I can't answer them." That's where I think a lot of companies struggle with. That's why a lot of applications, they're data intensive but they don't deliver any insights. >> It's interesting and I like this anywhere idea because you think about like what you guys do, applications can be, they always start small, right? I mean, applications got to be built. So you guys, your solution really fits for small startups and business all the way up to large enterprises which in a large enterprise, they could have hundreds and thousands of applications which look like small startups. >> Absolutely, absolutely. You know, that's a great thing about the sort of ThoughtSpot Everywhere which takes the engine around ThoughtSpot that we built over the last eight or nine years and could deliver in any kind of a context. 'Cause nowadays, as opposed to 10, 15, 20 years ago, everything does run in applications these days. We talk about visual transformation at the beginning of the call. That's really what it means is today, the workflows of business are conducted in applications no matter who you're interacting with. And so we have all these applications. A lot of times, yes, if you have big analytical problems, you can take the data and put into a different context like ThoughtSpot's own UI and do a lot of analytics, but we also understand that a lot of times customers and users, they like to analyze in the context the workflow of the application they're actually working in. And so with that situation, actually having the analytics embedded within right next to their workflow is something that I think a lot of, especially business users that are less trained, they'd like to do that right in the context of their business productivity workflow. And so that's where ThoughtSpot Everywhere, I know the terminology is a little self-serving, but ThoughtSpot Everywhere, we think ThoughtSpot could actually be everywhere in your business workflow. >> That's great value proposition. I'm going to put my skeptic hat on challenge you and say, Okay, I don't want to... Prove it to me, what's in it for me? And how much is it going to cost me, how do I engage? So, you know- >> Yeah. >> What's in it for me as the buyer? If people want to buy this, I want to use it, I'm going to get engaged with ThoughtSpot and how much does it cost and what's the engagements look like? >> So, what's in it for you is easy. So if you have data in the cloud and you have an application, you should use ThoughtSpot Everywhere to deliver a much more valuable, interactive experience for your user's data. So that's clear. How do you engage? So we have a very flexible pricing models. If your data's in the cloud, we can either, you can purchase with us, we'll land small and then grow with your consumption. You know, that's always the kind of thing, "Hey, allow us to prove it to you, right?" We start, and then if a user starts to consume, you don't really have to pay a big bill until we see the consumption increase. So we have consumption and data capacity-based types of pricing models. And you know, one of the real advantages that we have for cloud applications is if you're a developer, often, even in the past for ThoughtSpot, we haven't always made that development experience very easy. You have to embed a relatively heavy product but the beauty for ThoughtSpot is from the beginning, we were designed with a modern API-based kind of architecture. Now, a lot of our BI competitors were designed and developed in the desktop server kind of era where everything you embed is very monolithic. But because we have an API driven architecture, we invest a lot of time now to wrap a seamless developer SDK, plus very easy to use REST APIs, plus an interactive kind of a portal to make that development experience also really simple. So if you're a developer, now you really can get from zero to an easy app for ThoughtSpot embedded in your data app in just often in less than 60 minutes. >> John: Yeah. >> So that's also a very great proposition where modern leaders is your data's in the cloud, you've got developers with an SDK, it can get you into an app very quickly. >> All right so bottom line, if you're in the cloud, you got to get the data embed in the apps, data everywhere with ThoughtSpot. >> Yes. >> All right, so let's unpack it a little bit because I think you just highlighted I think what I think is the critical factor for companies as they evaluate their plethora of tools that they have and figuring out how to streamline and be cloud native in scale. You mentioned static and old BI competitors to the cloud. They also have a team of analysts as well that just can make the executives feel like the all of the reports are dynamic but they're not, they're just static. But look at, I know you guys have a relation with Snowflake, and not to kind of bring them into this but to highlight this, Snowflake disrupted the data warehouse. >> Yes. >> Because they're in the cloud and then they refactored leveraging cloud scale to provide a really easy, fast type of value for their product and then the rest is history. They're public, they're worth a lot of money. That's kind of an example of what's coming for every category of companies. There's going to be that. In fact, Jerry Chen, who was just given the keynote here at the event, had just had a big talk called "Castles In The Cloud", you can build a moat in the cloud with your application if you have the right architecture. >> Absolutely. >> So this is kind of a new, this is a new thing and it's almost like beachfront property, whoever gets there first wins the category. >> Exactly, exactly. And we think the timing is right now. You know, Snowflake, and even earlier, obviously we had the best conference with Redshift, which really started the whole cloud data warehouse wave, and now you're seeing Databricks even with their Delta Lake and trying to get into that kind of swim lane as well. Right now, all of a sudden, all these things that have been brewing in the background in the data architecture has to becoming mainstream. We're now seeing even large financial institutions starting to always have to test and think about moving their data into cloud data warehouse. But once you're in the cloud data warehouse, all the benefits of its elasticity, performance, that can really get realized at the analytics layer. And what ThoughtSpot really can bring to the table is we've always, because we're a search-based paradigm and when you think about search. Search is all about, doesn't really matter what kind of search you're doing, it's about digging really deep into a lot of data and delivering interactive performance. Those things have always... Doesn't really matter what data architecture we sit on, I've always been really fundamental to how we build our product. And that translates extremely well when you have your data in a Snowflake or Redshift have billions of rows in the cloud. We're the only company, we think, that can deliver interactive performance on all the data you have in a cloud data warehouse. >> Well, I want to congratulate you, guys. I'm really a big fan of the company. I think a lot of companies are misunderstood until they become big and there was, "Why didn't everyone else do that search? Well, I thought they were a search engine?" Being search centric is an architectural philosophy. I know as a North Star for your company but that creates value, right? So if you look at like say, Snowflake, Redshift and Databricks, you mentioned a few of those, you have kind of a couple of things going on. You have multiple personas kind of living well together and the developers like the data people. Normally, they hated each other, right? (giggles) Or maybe they didn't hate each other but there's conflict, there's always cultural tension between the data people and the developers. Now, you have developers who are becoming data native, if you will, just by embedding that in. So what Snowflake, these guys, are doing is interesting. You can be a developer and program and get great results and have great performance. The developers love Snowflake, they love Databricks, they love Redshift. >> Absolutely. >> And it's not that hard and the results are powerful. This is a new dynamic. What's your reaction to that? >> Yeah, no, I absolutely believe that. I think, part of the beauty of the cloud is I like your kind of analogy of bringing people together. So being in the cloud, first of all, the data is accessible by everyone, everywhere. You just need a browser and the right permissions, you can get your data, and also different kind of roles. They all kind of come together. Things best of breed tools get blended together through APIs. Everything just becomes a lot more accessible and collaborative and I know that sounds kind of little kumbaya, but the great thing about the cloud is it does blur the lines between goals. Everyone can do a little bit of everything and everyone can access a little bit more of their data and get more value out of it. >> Yeah. >> So all of that, I think that's the... If you talk about digital transformation, you know, that's really at the crux of it. >> Yeah, and I think at the end of the day, speed and high quality applications is a result and I think, the speed game if automation being built in on data plays a big role in that, it's super valuable and people will get slowed down. People get kind of angry. Like I don't want to get, I want to go faster, because automations and AI is going to make things go faster on the dev side, certainly with DevOps, clouds proven that. But if you're like an old school IT department (giggles) or data department, you're talking to weeks not minutes for results. >> Yes. >> I mean, that's the powerful scale we're talking about here. >> Absolutely. And you know, if you think about it, you know, if it's days to minutes, it sounds like a lot but if you think about like also each question, 'cause usually when you're thinking about questions, they come in minutes. Every minute you have a new question and if each one then adds days to your journey, that over time is just amplified, it's just not sustainable. >> Okay- >> So now in the cloud world, you need to have things delivered on demand as you think about it. >> Yeah, and of course you need the data from a security standpoint as well and build that in. Chances is people shift left. I got to ask you if I'm a customer, I want to just run this by you. You mentioned you have an SDK and obviously talking to developers. So I'm working with ThoughtSpot, I'm the leader of the organization. I'm like, "Okay, what's the headroom? What's going to happen as a bridge, the future gets built so I'm going to ride with ThoughtSpot." You mentioned SDK, how much more can I do to build and wrap around ThoughtSpot? Because obviously, this kind of value proposition is enabling value. >> Yes. >> So I want to build around it. How do I get started and where does it go? >> Yeah, well, you can get started as easy as starting with our free trial and just play around with it. And you know, the beauty of SDK and when I talk about how ThoughtSpot is built with API-driven architecture is, hey, there's a lot of magic and features built into ThoughtSpot core pod. You could embed all of that into an application if you would like or you could also use our SDK and our APIs to say, "I just want to embed a couple of visualizations," start with that and allow the users to take into that. You could also embed the whole search feature and allow users to ask repetitive questions, or you can have different role-based kind of experiences. So all of that is very flexible and very dynamic and with SDK, it's low-code in the sense where it creates a JavaScript portal for you and even for me who's haven't coded in a long time. I can just copy and paste some JavaScript code and I can see my applications reflecting in real time. So it's really kind of a modern experience that developers in today's world appreciate, and because all the data's in the cloud and in the cloud, applications are built as services connected through APIs, we really think that this is the modern way that developers would get started. And analysts, even analysts who don't have strong developer training can get started with our developer portal. So really, it's a very easy experience and you can customize it in whichever way you want that suits your application's needs. >> Yeah, I think it's, you don't have to be a developer to really understand the basic value of reuse and discovery of services. I think that's one of these we hear from developers all the time, "I had no idea that Victor did that code. Why do I have to rewrite that?" So you see, reuse come up a lot around automation where code is building with code, right? So you have this new vibe and you need data to discover that search paradigm mindset. How prevalent is that on the minds of customers? Are they just trying to like hold on and survive through the pandemic? (giggles) >> Well, customers are definitely thinking about it. You know, the challenge is change is always hard, you know? So it takes time for people to see the possibilities and then have to go through especially in larger organizations, but even in smaller organizations, people think about, "Well, how do I change my workflow?" and then, "How do I change my data pipeline?" You know, those are the kinds of things where, you know, it takes time, and that's why Redshift has been around since 2012 or I believe, but it took years before enterprises really are now saying, "The benefits are so profound that we really have to change the workflows, change the data pipelines to make it work because we can't hold on to the old ways." So it takes time but when the benefits are so clear, it's really kind of a snowball effect, you know? Once you change a data warehouse, you got to think about, "Do I need to change my application architecture?" Then, "Do I need to change the analytics layer?" And then, "Do I need to change the workflow?" And then you start seeing new possibilities because it's all more flexible that you can add more features to your application and it's just kind of a virtuous cycle, but it starts with taking that first step to your point of considering migrating your data into the cloud and we're seeing that across all kinds of industries now. I think nobody's holding back anymore. It just takes time, sometimes some are slower and some are faster. >> Well, all apps or data apps and it's interesting, I wrote a blog post in 2017 called, "Data Is The New Developer Kit" meaning it was just like a vision statement around data will be part of how apps, like software, it'll be data as code. And you guys are doing that. You're allowing data to be a key ingredient for interactivity with analytics. This is really important. Can you just give us a use case example of how someone builds an interactive data app with ThoughtSpot Everywhere? >> Yeah, absolutely. So I think there are certain applications that when naturally things relates to data, you know, I talk about bending or those kinds of things. Like when you use it, you just kind of inherently know, "Hey, there's tons of data and then can I get some?" But a lot of times we're seeing, you know, for example, one of our customers is a very small company that provides software for personal trainers and small fitness studios. You know, you would think like, "Oh well, these are small businesses. They don't have a ton of data. A lot of them would probably just run on QuickBooks or Excel and all of that." But they could see the value is kind of, once a personal trainer conducts his business on a cloud software, then he'll realize, "Oh, I don't need to download any more data. I don't need to run Excel anymore, the data is already there in a software." And hey, on top of that, wouldn't it be great if you have an analytics layer that can analyze how your clients paid you, where your appointments are, and so forth? And that's even just for, again like I said, no disrespect to personal trainers, but even for one or two personal trainers, hey, they can be an analytics and they could be an analyst on their business data. >> Yeah, why not? Everyone's got a Fitbits and watches and they could have that built into their studio APIs for the trainers. They can get collaboration. >> That's right. So there's no application you can think that's too simple or you might think too traditional or whatnot for analytics. Every application now can become a very engaging data application. >> Well Victor, it's great to have you on. Obviously, great conversation around ThoughtSpot anywhere. And as someone who runs corp dev for ThoughtSpot, for the folks watching that aren't customers yet for ThoughtSpot, what should they know about you guys as a company that they might not know about or they should know about? And what are people talking about ThoughtsSpot, what are they saying about it? So what should they know that know that's not being talked about or they may not understand? And what are other people saying about ThoughtSpot? >> So a couple of things. One is there's a lot of fun out there. I think about search in general, search is generally a very broad term but I think it, you know, I go back to what I was saying earlier is really what differentiates ThoughtSpot is not just that we have a search bar that's put on some kind of analytics UI. Really, it's the fundamental technical architecture underlying that is from the ground up built for search large data, granular, and detailed exploration of your data. That makes us truly unique and nobody else can really do search if you're not built with a technical foundation. The second thing is, we're very much a cloud first company now, and a ton of our over the past few years because of the growth of these highly performing data warehouses like Snowflake and Redshift, we're able to really focus on what we do best which is the search and the query processing performance on the front end and we're fully engaged with cloud platforms now. So if you have data in the cloud, we are the best analytics front end for that. >> Awesome, well, thanks for coming on. Great the feature you guys here in the "Startup Showcase", great conversation, ThoughtSpot leading company, hot startup. We did their event with them with theCUBE a couple of months ago. Congratulations on all your success. Victor Chang, VP of ThoughtSpot Everywhere and Corporate Development here on theCUBE and "AWS Startup Showcase". Go to awsstartups.com and be part of the community, we're doing these quarterly featuring the hottest startups in the cloud. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. >> Victor: Thank you so much. (bright music)

>>mhm >>Welcome to this cube conversation here in Palo alto California. I'm john Kerry host of the cube. We've got a great awesome conversation with the Ceo and co founder of harness a hot startup jodi Benson who is the co founder and Ceo but also the co founder of unusual ventures which is a really awesome venture capital firm, doing some great work investment but also they have great content over there for entrepreneurs and for people in the community And of course he's also the founder of big labs, his playground. If you're building out new applications also well known for being the founder of Ap dynamics of super successful billion dollar exit as a startup, Salto, Cisco now doing a lot of things and driving harness, solving big problems. So joe t mouthful intro there, you've done a lot. Congratulations on your an amazing entrepreneur career and now your next uh next next opportunities harness among other things. So congratulations. Thank you for coming. >>Thank you john and glad to be here. >>You guys are solving a big problem in software delivery. Obviously software changing the world. You're seeing open source projects increasing in order of magnitude enterprises jumping on open source in general adoption, large scale with cloud software is being delivered faster than ever before and with cloud scale and now edge this huge challenges around how software deployed, managed maintained. You got, we're talking about space to how do you do break fix in space, all these things are happening at a massive scale across the world. You are solving a big problem. So take a minute to explain what harnesses doing, why you guys exist, why you jumping in into this venture. >>Sure. Yeah. You know what harness mission is to simplify supper delivery and make it uh top notch for everyone. Like if you look at like you know the likes of google and facebook and netflix and amazon these companies are mastered the process of software delivery like and your engineers write code and the code is shipped to the end users and they can do it like multiple times a day at their scale and you know at the complexity that they have but most other business in the world they all want to be software companies but it's extremely, extremely hard for them to get there and I saw this firsthand when I was at epidemics as you know as Ceo last there we're about 12 1300 employees in the company and we had about about 3 50 or so engineers in the company For every 10 or 12 engineers, we had one person whose job was to write automation and scripting and tooling for trying to ships off you know uh you know all kind of scripting kind of stuff. We'll write scripts and chef and puppet and sensible and to deploy in aws and whatnot. And you know one day we're doing the math were like you know we have you know about overall about 30 people whose job was to do devops engineering by writing automation etc to deploy somewhere and I would do the math like you know, one engineer cost is 200 k loaded cost at six million a year that you're spending six million a year just writing deployment, scripting, you know, and even with that we were nowhere close to world class like world class is in like what you would think you could ship every day, we chip on demand, you could, you know, you could deploy software, ship software all of that right? And that was the, you know, I looked at that as a problem inside of dynamics and all they have done with customers, I would talk to like large banks, insurance companies and retailers and telcos and I would hear the same challenge like you know, we hear about devops, we go to the all these devops conferences and events and we see the same 10 companies, you know presenting how the home grew some kind of a devops system for software delivery etc. And you know, I mean that was like, you know, we just, we cannot survive with this like and as the world we need to have uh the right kind of platforms for software delivery and simplify this so that everyone could become as good as a google netflix amazon etcetera that stand of our mission at harness that can we take every business in the world, you know and in a few weeks or a few months, can we get them as sophisticated and good in terms of their dueling for software delivery as a google facebook amazon, those kind of companies would be and that's, that's what we're doing. So >>It's a great ambition and by the way it's a bold move and it's needed. I'll tell you, it's interesting. You mentioned some of those commentary about shipping code at that speed Facebook Google. They had that they had they were forced to do that and again they have all that benefit the mainstream enterprise doesn't. But if you even go back 20 years ago, 15 years ago, that's when Amazon was born. You see two and S three is celebrating their 15th birthday. Software. Yeah, hyper scale has had some good moves there. But the average business went from craft, you know, waterfall QA department go back a little bit slower. I won't say slow motion but manageable now with the speed of shipping and the speed of the scale, that's a huge issue. What kind of pressure do you see that putting on the developer, the individual, not just the system because you got the system of development and the devil and the developers themselves. >>I think the developers have have done quite well to this. I feel like, you know, if you look at the software development part of itself, you know the agile development has been happening for quite some time. So developers have learned how to ship things fast and like in a week sprint or a two week sprint or in in kind of faster cycles. They have moved off from the waterfall kind of models like many years ago now. So that's the suffering development side of things then you have the infrastructure side of things which is the like any province in infrastructure fast. Can you get hardware fast? That's the, you know, the cloud has done that well where the challenges the process, the developers are writing code fast enough these days and you have the, you know, the infrastructure itself could be prov isn't and maintained and and and change fast enough but how do you bring it all together and there is the entire process around it. That's not moving fast enough. So that's where the bottom language. So I feel the, you know, and the process is not good. The developer experience becomes really bad bad because developers are waiting for the process to go and you know, they write some code and the code is sitting on the shelf and they are waiting for things. >>Uh they get all pissed off and mad. What's the holdup? Why what's the process? And then security shifting left, wait a minute to go back and rewrite code. This is huge. I want to just get back and just nail it quickly if you don't mind honing in on the value proposition. What is the harness value proposition? What is the pitch, what are you, what are you offering? What are you solving? Can you nail in on that real quick? >>Sure. So what harness is swallowing is simplifying that software delivery by plane, so developer writes code and that code goes goes through a bunch of steps so a bunch of steps which is uh you know you build the code then you you know test the code, you know, then you do integration tests, then you you know go through your security checks, then you go through a compliance checks, then you go through more dusting, then you're deploying a staging environment, then you go one to do a bunch of things on it. Then you start deploying in production environment but in production you will deploy on like a small part of production, verify everything is working well, it's not working well, you'll roll it back, it's working well then you deploy two more things. This entire process could take like weeks for people to do and this is mostly automated, you know in kind of uh uh you know this kind of random scripts here and there etcetera. So we simplify the entire process that you could describe your process in the language, I just described like you know in a very descriptive declarative kind of way like this is the process I want to achieve and hardness will automatically create your pipelines for this. This kind of process and most of these pipelines have a lot of heavy use of intelligence and um L two, it could go from one step to another, like, so many times, like when you say, you know, deploy the guard and and and 1% of my production environment and see everything is working well and if everything is working well, go to the next 10%. But how do you figure out if everything is working well and that's where the intelligence and um El comes in like, you know, what we learn, what is a normal behavior of your application, how does a normal part of the code works like, you know, there, what's the performance behavior, what is a functional behavior? What errors it is? And if everything is good then you go to the next step so that entire cycle harness automatically, uh you know, uh managers and its automated, you know, if you get governance, you get like, you know, high degree of automation, you get a high degree of, you know, security, you get high degree of like, you know, uh uh you know, quality around him. And so it's it's think of like the, the Ci cd has a lot of developers know and know this process is is ci cd on steroids available to you, Right? So you >>sound like you're making it easier on the Ci cd pipeline process, standing it up, detecting it, prototyping it, if you will, for lack of a better description, get get used to the pipeline and then move it out, roll it out and build your own in a way >>that, is that what is that what you're doing? It's like, you know, a lot of these complex ci city pipelines, what people need, you know, it can take them like three months, six months to to put it uh you know, put it together the harness, it's like an hour, an hour, you could put it together, you know, very, very sophisticated uh Ci cd pipeline and the pipeline is, you know, automated is is, you know, it's it's intelligent around like, you know, what is the normal behavior of your of your applications? Uh It's it's just so phenomenally different than how people have done ci cd before that we simplify the process. Automate the process, you know, and make it manageable and very ready to get involved. >>It's funny you mentioned the three weeks weeks it could take to do the csd pipeline. Of course, that doesn't factor in the what happens when you roll it out, people start complaining, playing with it, breaking it, then you gotta go back and do it again. I mean, that's real and that's a real problem, I mean, can you just going to give a taste of the scar tissue that goes on there. What's some of the what are some of the what some of the pain points that you solve? >>Yeah. So, I think the that is that really becomes the core of the pain point, like, you know, people need, like high amount of dependability, easy to change things, you know, it's we call it like the lack of intelligent automation, you know, and the and this heavy amount of developer toil that the developers have to do so much work around around making all of this work like you know it has to be simplified. So that's that's where our value product comes in like you know, it's it's you know uh you can get like a visual builder and like minutes you can build out the entire process which is your job stability at city pipeline or you could also do like a declarative Yamil interface and just like you know in a few lines just right up whatever process you would want and we would review should be shipped with all kind of integrations with every cloud environment, every monitoring system, every system, every kind of testing process, every kind of security scanning so you can just drag and drop and in minutes eur, europe and running, it just creates so much velocity in this entire process. And also this manageability that people have struggled with >>morale to I mean you can imagine the morale developers go up significantly when you start seeing that the developer productivity has always been a big thing but this intelligent automation conversations huge. Some people have it, some people don't, people say they have it, what is how can you, how can the company figure out uh if someone's really got the real deal when it comes to intelligent automation because again, automation is the is key into devops. >>Yeah, I think I I almost started like you know like if you look at the generational evolution of things like the the first generation was uh you know developer writes code and then it will give you will give it to some some mighty at men who will go and deploy the code, run some commands and do things like tradition to was writing scripts that you're right, a lot of scripts that was automation but it was kind of dumb our dimension and that's how we have, you know that that's where the industry is so actually break now even most of it, the third generation is when the automation is you don't write scripts to you know uh to automate things, you tell our system what you want to achieve and it generates automation for you, right? And that's what we call intelligent automation. Where it's all declarative and all the you don't have to maintain a lot of you know scripts etcetera because they are, you know, they can't keep up with it. You know, you have to change the process all the time and if you change the process, it doesn't work, it becomes completely, you know, uh you know, it becomes very fragile to manage it. So that's that's really where intelligent automation comes in, you know, I look at like, you know, if you can have like uh like you look at like a wrestler, you know, making cars the entire assembly line is automated, but it's, but it's if you want to change something in the assembly line, even that process is automated and it's very simple. Right? So it's and that's what gives them so much uh you know, uh you know, uh let's say control and manageability around the manufacturing process. So the software delivery, uh you know, by assembly line, which is the software software by ci cd piper and really should be a more sophisticated and more intelligent as well now. And that's that's an exhibition, >>jodi. You're also pointing out something that we cover a lot on the cube and we've been writing about is how modern software practices are changing, where this team makeup or whatever its speed is key, but also getting data. Everyone who's successful with cloud and cloud scale and now you got the edge opening up and like I said, even space is going to be programmable, Everything's programmable. And the key is to get the data from the use cases right, get something deployed, look at it, get some data and then double down and make it better. That's a modern approach, not build it and then rebuild it and tear it down and rebuild it, which you're kind of leaning into this idea of let's get some delivery going, let's structure it and then feed it more so that the developers can iterate with with, with the pipeline and this is this again, can scale, can you talk about that? Can you comment on your reaction to that? >>Yeah, definitely. That's exactly how we look at it. Like, you know, you uh you want developers to kind of like say they want to do a, you know, automated process to deploy in their communities infrastructure in matter of minutes, you should be able to get started, but now it's like, you know, there's so much data that comes into it. Like, you know that you have monitoring systems systems like ab dynamics and you're like and data dog and you're logging systems your Splunk and elastic and you know, some logic, you have your, you know, different kind of testing systems here, your security scanning, so there's so much data in it. They're like, you know, terabytes and terabytes of data from it. So when you start doing your deployments, we could also come seem all of the data and see like what was the impact of those deployments or court changes in each of these monitoring, dusting, logging gonna systems and you know, what, how the data changes and then now is that based on that we can learn like, you know, what should be your ideal process and what will break in your process and that's that's the how harness platform works. That's the core of that intelligent automation networks, they're expanding it now to bring a few more of the devops use cases into it Also like the one is cloud cost management because when you, when you, you know, uh you know when we started shipping, there's a lot of people would tell us like, you know, you're you're doing a great job helping us managing the quality, which we always were concerned about like when we're deploying things so you know, security, you know, functionality etcetera. But cloud cost is a big challenge as well. You have your paying like tens and tens of millions of dollars to the cloud providers. And when developers do things in an automated way, it could increase without cost suddenly and we don't know what to do how to manage that. So that's the, you know, we we introduced a new model called cloud cost management to as part of the develops software delivery process that every time you're shipping code and we also figure out like, you know, what with impact on on your on your podcast, you know, can we automate the, you know, uh if there is there is too much impact, can we automate the, you know, the roll back around it, you know, can you get and you can you can we stop the delivery process at that point, can we help you troubleshoot and, you know, reduce the cost down? So that's, you know, that's cost becomes another another another dimension to it. Uh you know, then we recently just added uh you know, the next level that's managing feature Flags. And a lot of the time software developers are adding feature flags to like this feature would be given to this consumer and like, you know, and this feature will be given to this consumer until you test it out through uh test kind of thing and like, you know, what is the impact of, you know, uh turning a feature on versus off, you know, we're bringing that into the same ci cd pipeline. So it's kind of an integrated approach to this uh you know, our intelligently automated biplane instead of these uh small point approaches that just very hard to manage. >>I mean the level of data involved the creature flag for instance, the great is an amazing thing because that allows you to do things that used to be extremely difficult to provision. I mean just picking the color of icon, for instance, this kind of blue, I mean I was just, you hear about this, these kinds of things happening at scale and the date is pretty accurate when it comes in. So I think that's an example of the kind of speed and agility that developers want and the question I want to ask you though on that point because this opens up the whole next conversation, you guys have a modern approach and so much traction and you've recently raised big rounds of funding as you go to the market place, your experienced entrepreneur and uh and Ceo you've seen the waves before. What's the big wave that you're on now? What's the big momentum tailwind for harness? Is it the fact that you're creating value for developers or is it the system that you're integrating into with the intelligence to make things smarter and more scalable? What's the or is it all the above? Can you just share what that that story is? >>Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's really, really both of them. But you know, what are our business case when you go to people who tell them like say, if you're you know, 200 developers. uh, you know, we can give you the world's best software delivery tooling at the cost of half to one developer. Right? So like, you know, so which is like 44, 200 person organization at like 200 to 200 to $300,000 a year. They will get the best software delivery tooling better than a Google Facebook Amazon kind of companies very, very quickly. So our, our entire value prop is built on that like a developer experience gets much better. The productivity gets much better. Developers on an average are spending like 20-30% of the time on deployment, delivery-related toil, like unnecessary stuff that we deal with. So it's only 30% more efficiency gain for the developers. Their quality of life gets better that they don't need to worry about like weekends and nights to babysit your deployments and you know, things breaking and troubleshooting things all the time. Right? So that's that's a that's a big big value. But as a business you get much more velocity your innovation velocity is much higher. You know your risk on your, you know your consumers is much lower because your quality of the of of you know how your ship becomes becomes better. So our business case of like you know at the past of like 1-2 develops engineers will get you the best develops uh you know tooling in the world possible. You know it's not a hard business case for us to make, right? That's that's what we we we look at, it becomes pretty pretty obvious for you know as people try our product, you know the business case >>you don't have to really pass the I. Q. Test to figure this one out, okay everyone's happier and you have more options to scale and make more money in new opportunities not just existing business. I mean the feature flagging these new features you can build a new value and take more territory if you're a business or whatever your objective is so clear value. Can you give an example of some recent successes you've had or or traction points that you think is worth notable that people can get their arms around. >>Yeah definitely like you know we are we're helping a lot of uh you know a lot of customers you know doing uh like completely changing their uh their uh their process of software delivery, you know, 11 recent example, uh nationwide insurance, you know, nationwide insurance, you know, moving from their data center kind of approach to public cloud and to communities and to microservices, like a major cloud native re architecture and in a very ambitious aggressive project to do it, you know, in a in a in a short period of time and harness becomes a platform for them to kind of, you know, uh to remove all the bottom leg around the process, the software delivery process. You know, they obviously they still have to do the developer side of things and they have to do the cloud infrastructure side of things, which is they're doing. But the entire process of how you bring together, you know, harness becomes accelerated around it. So a lot of these kind of stories that we when we kind of create this fundamental transformation for our for our for our customers, you know, uh you know, moving to to a public cloud, you know, moving to microservices, moving to communities, you know, re architect things, but they become much faster. Cloud native higher, you know, a true software company and you know, I would say that's that's something we we we we take a they can take a lot of pride in, I think are always our biggest challenge is uh is to is to is to evangelize and and convince the market that this is possible to do with the product, because historically people have got told like, you know, the only way you can do this kind of software delivery processes and tooling is by engineering it on your own. So everyone wants us on the path of writing their own, you know, and and it's very hard for every, every company in the world to become very good in writing your own software delivery, tooling and processes and systems, etcetera. Right? So it's uh and that's it. So, you know, there is still that that education and evangelism needs to be done, that, you know, there is uh there is no point, you're trying to do it on your own, you can get a platform that can do it all for you and you can focus on the your core business of, you know, what you want to innovate on. >>And I think the Devil's movement hasn't been pioneered and you have to hand roll everything and that's the way it was. But now, as the mainstream market picks this up, you're standing on the shoulders of those pioneers, you are one of them. It's awesome to see this modern approach because it's really playing out in real time again, you've done that before, joe t so it's impressive and, you know, you've seen the movie and developed and the earlier versions pre devops. So, so as cloud native comes and start scaling it's going to be for the rest of us. So, great, great that you're providing the platform and the tools and software. I got to ask you if you don't mind because a lot of people are looking at ways for modern approaches to organizing their teams, how would you define the modern devops movement? You look at devops one point. Oh, we got here. Okay, cloud, cloud native, cloud scale, modern applications, pipe lining. Now, we're looking at a whole another level of confluence of uh of integration and speed. How would you define the modern devops movement? >>Yeah, I think that's a that's a very good question. I think that the core of modern devops, what I would call it develops to point to me is developers self service. It was like the first generation of develops was they create this kind of a devoPS team and then the developers will give all the, you know, delivery related stuff that develops team and the devops team starts to become a bottle, like everywhere now, like in the developed steam job is to build a ci pipeline and the city pipeline and the deployment scripts and you know, do like, you know, you want to do a canary deployment, they have to figure it out how to do it, they have to do, like, you know, you are uh you know, all sort of things that the that needs to be done, you create a central develops team and you give it to them and they become like, you know, uh become a big bottleneck, we look at the modern develops or the next generation and develops has to be done around focusing on the developer experience that and making it all self service for the developers. So you have, you have, let's say you are definitely in for a micro service and it's like, you know 57 engineers, you know, modeling a micro service you want like that, they can go and say this is for our micro service, you know, in a matter of minutes or hours, they can engineer the process without having to lean on a central deVOPS team and to do all the work for them and that's you know, by by maybe a modeler or in some kind of mammal interface or something. That's very easy for them, their experience is so easy that they can manage it themselves without the central deVOPS team have to write it all or cut it all and manage it all. But at the same time the center deVOPS teams, job becomes a bar and governance that can they define the guardrails, that they can define the guardrails on like, you know, you have to have this level of security before something goes into production, you have to have this level of quality before something goes into production, you have to have like, you know, uh this, your cost could not be more than this, right? So you define, so in this instance, instead of the center develops team is doing all the work themselves on writing all the stuff they define the guard rails and it becomes a very easy cell service experience of the developers should do things within those, those guard rails. This is what the modern never actually, >>that's awesome and also accelerate more business value And you're nailing it joe t thank you for coming on and great. Uh, the Ceo on the cube ceo and co founder harness harness dot IO. You guys got free trials, free downloads. You got a great, uh, by as you go model also. Um, you're an entrepreneur at heart. Uh, co founder of unusual ventures, Big Labs appdynamics. Now harness. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on. >>Hey, thank you john. >>Okay, this is a cube conversation. I'm john for here in Palo alto California with the cube. Thanks for watching.

>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of dr khan 2021 virtual. I'm john for a host of the cube. Got a great cube segment here at Donnie Bergholz, VP of products at Docker Industry veterans, seeing all the ways of innovation now uh had a product that dr dani great to see you. >>It's great to see you again to john >>hey, great program this year, Dr khan almost pushing the envelope again. Just the world's changed significantly over the past few years in this past year has been pretty crazy last year were virtual at the beginning of the pandemic, the watershed moment. Dr khan 2020 you know, with virtual event and then share action packed keynote track, uh four tracks run share build accelerate, you got a cube track, you've got live hits. Uh, community rooms global, huge growth in the developer community around Docker Kubernetes is now well understood by everyone and the general consensus is everyone's in production with it moving like a fast train cloud natives at the center of the action coupons, very operational operators. Dr khan's very development focus. So this is a key developer event really in the CNC F cloud native world. What's going on the process? Give us the update? >>Yeah. And I think you made a fantastic point there, john which is the developer focus. Uh, I joined dr back in october of last year and one of the first things that I did was make sure that we were going out there listening to our customers, having a lot of fresh conversations with them and using those as the core product strategy as we were talking to customers. What we learned fell into three big buckets around building sharing and running modern applications. So we've used those to create our product strategy which is based on solving problems that our customers and developers using Docker care about rather than lot of product strategies that I've come across as an analyst and as a leader on the enterprise side, which are very much feature factory driven of like here's the thing we can ship it, what kind of shove it in your face and try and sell it to you. So I'm really excited about what we're doing a doctor by delivering things that are developers really care about based on problems that they have told us are really valuable to solve problems that when we win, we went together and so we're focused on helping developers really accelerate their application delivery. So what are we doing? There's so much stuff and you know, if you've seen the keynote already, you'll see more and more of that. We announced for really big things and a lot of smaller things as well, um things like uh doctor verified publisher program which brings more trusted content. Um the doctor deV environments that help teams collaborate more effectively, um dr desktop on apple silicon bringing environments to the latest and greatest of machines that everybody is trying to get ahold of. Especially now that cps are harder to come by. Uh uh as well as uh some of those little things like scoped personal access tokens, which makes it easier for people to use a Ci pipeline without having to give it full right privileges and be concerned that if they get hacked, if the sea acrobatic it's hacked, then they get hacked to we're trying to help them defend against those kinds of cases. >>It's funny you made me think of the eye with the apple silicon comment, the supply chain threats that you've seen in hardware. And even here I'm hearing the word kicked around just in the CTO of doctor used the word supply chain, software supply chain. So again, you bring up this idea of supply chain, you mentioned trust. I can almost see the dots connecting, you know, in real time out in the audience out there saying, okay, you've got trust supply chain hardware, software, containers, there's no perimeter and clouds. You have to have a kind of unit level security. This is kind of a big deal. Can you just unpack this trend? Because this is a security kind of anywhere kind of not going to use a buzzword, but like supply chain actually hits home here. Like talk about that. What? All wise all this means? >>Yeah, I think Doctor is in a really interesting position in terms of how development teams and enterprises are adopting it, because it's been around for long enough that enterprises have come to trust Docker and it's really gotten in there in a way that a lot of brand new technologies have not. And yet we're still pushing the boundaries of innovation at the same time. So when when we think about where dr fits in for developers, we've got dr official images, which are probably adopted the default for anything you're going to do in a container. You go and get a doctor official image and start doing it. But then what Right? You pulling a bunch of those, you start building applications, you start pulling other libraries, you build your own code on top, um, on your DEV environment where you're probably running doctor desktop to do so. And so we've got content coming from a trusted source, we've got dr running on the developer laptop and then we've got everything else like where else does it go from there? Uh, and so there's a ton of um, both problem and opportunity to help bring all that complex kind of spaghetti pipeline mess together and help provide people with the path of they can have confidence in while they're doing so. It's interesting because it's different for developers than it is for option. Security teams very, very different in terms of what they care about. >>So talk about the automation impact because I can see two things happening. One is the trusted environment, more containers everywhere. And then you have more developers coming on board. Right? So actually more people writing code, not just bots, machines and humans. So you have more people flooding in writing code, more containers everywhere that need to be trusted? What's the impact to the environment? What's the but how do you, how does develop experience get easier and simpler when that's happening? >>We see that as you get more and more content, The tail, the long tail continues to extend, right, more and more community generated third party content. People publishing their own applications on Docker hub and all across the Internet. And that makes the importance of being able to discover things that you can trust that you can incorporate without worrying about what might be there all the more important. So we've got dr official images today, we announced the doctor verified publisher program. All these are things that we're doing to try and make it easier for developers to find the good stuff to use it and not worry about it and just move on with their lives. >>What's your vision and what's your, what stalkers take on the collaboration aspect of coding? I think it's one of the key themes here. Where does that fit in? What's the story with collaboration? >>Yeah, we see this as an area that really has been left behind around the adoption of containers, the adoption of kubernetes, the focus has been so much on that pipeline and that path and production and production container orchestration where we watched the generation of kubernetes arise and most of the vendors in the space, we're doing some kind of top down infrastructure deal right selling to the VP of Ops or something along those lines. Um and so the development of those applications really was left by the wayside because that's not a problem that the VP of us cares about, but it's a very interesting problem as we think about dr being focused on developers now to help those teams collaborate because no application is built in a closet. Every single application that is built is built in partnership with other developers, with product managers, with designers, all these people who need to somehow work together to review not only the source code, but the application as a whole. >>What does the product? Um, Evolution looked like as Justin Cormack and I were talking about, you know, developer productivity, the simplification containers as a P. I. S. What is the, what is the priority? How, how do you look at that? Because the securities front and center and a variety of security partners here in the ecosystem. Where's the priorities on the road map? You can, if someone asked you, hey Donnie, what's the bottom line? What's the product strategy? >>Yeah, our priority is the team. First and foremost, it is not optimizing for the single developer, it is optimizing for that team working together effectively. We feel that that is a very underserved audience of that developer team as a unit. Um, if you look at everybody in the container space, like I said, they're all kind of focused on operations, production, cloud environments, not on that team. And so we see that as a great opportunity to solve really important problems that nobody else is doing a great job of solving today. >>I gotta ask you on the team formation is the general consensus. Also in a lot of my interviews here at dr khan and outside in the industry, is that the, the monolithic organization building monolithic applications certainly has been disrupted. Certainly the engineering teams now look like they're going to be into end workloads, full visibility and to end with an s sorry, on the team, everyone kind of built in these teams. We kind of platform engineering flexing in between. So you don't have that kind of like silent organization certainly has been discussed for well, but this seems to be the standard. Now, what's your take on this and is that what you mean by teams that could you share your view on how people are organizing teams? Because certainly get hub and a lot of other leaders are saying, yeah, we see the same way these teams have, you know, threaded leaders and or fully baked team members inside these teams. >>Yeah, we definitely see that team as a cross functional team. It's not, you know, your your old world, we might have been like, you've got the development team here, you've got the QA team here, you've got the operations team there. It's completely not that it's that team is it's got developers on it. If there are dedicated testers or software engineers and test their on it, if they need to have a devops person or an SRE there on it as well, it's all part of the same team and that team is building on top of the platforms that are exposed by other teams. And that's the big shift that I think has been in the works for probably a decade at this point has been that kind of rotation of responsibilities that you used to be, that DEV's owned the DEV environment and DEV test and ops owned Prod and everything about PROd and now it's much more that there are platforms that span every environment and there's a platform team responsible for each one of those components that delivers it in a self service way. And then there are teams that build on top of that that own their application all the way from development through to production, they support it there on call for it. This is how we work internally, our development teams in our product development teams, I should say, because they're cross functional, really take ownership for their applications and it's it's a super powerful imperative. It gives people the ability to iterate much more quickly by taking away a lot of those gatekeepers. And it's it's the same thing as a matter of fact, when I was at an enterprise before I joined dr it's the same thing we did. A big part of our strategy was creating these self service platforms so that product teams could move quickly. >>Remember I interviewed during the QB was awesome. Great concept. Go back to look at that tape. That's not exactly not tape, it's on disk, but Great. Great concept. Let me ask you one more question on that because one of the things that's clear that's coming out even in the university areas Engineering DeVOPS has now brought in much more of a focus of the SRE that used to be an ops role but now becomes becoming developer. I mean it's DEVOPS, as you said, it's been going on for a while over a decade now it's much more clear that this s. R. Re engineering role is key. So with that I've always thought Doctor and containers is a perfect integration tool capability. I mean why not? I mean that's one of the benefits of containers as you allow, you can contain arise things. So if you play out what you just said about the team's integration is huge. Talk about how you see that evolving as a product person. >>Yeah. I think as you say, the integration is huge. Um You know, one way that I look at it is that the application itself or the service itself is defined by either a container or a set of containers. Um And the product development team cares about what's inside of that set of containers up and to that container layer or that group of containers layer. Whether that's the doctor file with its containers. Docker compose those kinds of things and then there might be a platform team responsible for running a great kubernetes environment, whether they're using a cloud platform or in house and they care about everything outside of the containers, up to the containers as that interface. Uh So when we think about those focuses, like Docker is all about that application in words. Um And a lot of the more production oriented containers vendors are container outwards. So it's very different when we think about the kinds of problems we want to solve. It's about making that application definition really easy and portable and enabling a clean handoff to SRE teams who may be responsible for running that Apple product. >>You brought up trusted content, trusted containers, modern applications earlier. What does trusted containers mean to you? I mean that's I mean obviously means security built in but there's a lot of migration there with containers, containers coming in and out of clusters all the time. They're being orchestrated. They're being used with state and state stateless data. What does trusted content mean? >>No. Really, for us, the focus is an interesting one because when we think about building, sharing and running applications for developers, our run means we want to give developers are great interface into the production environment. We don't want to provide the production environment. And so some of those problems are ones we deeply care about where the developers are making sure that they've got a trusted, secure, verifiable path to get the content that they are incorporating into their app all the way to production or to a point of hand off. If there is a point of hand off, once it gets to production, it becomes the problem of different products and different vendors to make it really easy for those same enterprises to effectively secure that application and project. >>What does containers is as an A P. I mean that's just docker reference classic approach or is there a new definition to containers as a piece? Our container ap >>Yeah, I think the question becomes really interesting when you start thinking about what's inside of each one of those containers and how you might be able to use those as building blocks. Even thinking about trends that are on the rise, like Loco Noko development, how could you imagine incorporating containers or a service composed of a group of containers um, into one of those kinds of contexts to do so you have to have a clean ap that you can define and published in support of how a different component would interface with every one of those containers. What are the ports? What are the protocols? What are the formats? Every one of those things is important to creating an API >>So I gotta ask you don? T put you on the spot because you've been on many, many sides of the table, analyst Docker, you've been at an enterprise doing some hardcore devops. If I'm a customer out there and say I'm a classic main street enterprise. Hey Donnie, I'm putting my teams, we're kicking ass. We've been kicking the tires, been in the cloud pandemics, giving us a little lift, we know it to double down on, we feel good about where we're going. Um, but I got a couple clouds out there. I'm all in on one. I got another one going, but I'm going hybrid all the way. I don't even know what multi cloud is yet, but hybrid means edge and ultimately distributed computing. What do I do? What's the doctor Playbook, What do you, what do you say to me? How do you keep me calm and motivated? Yeah, >>I think, you know, the reality is like you say every company is going to be running in multiple different environments. Um It's probably not the same application in multiple environments and different apps and they've gotten to a place maybe accidentally as different business units are different functions started picking different clouds of their choice and getting them there. But in the end of it, like the company as a whole has to figure out how do I support that and how do I make it all work together effectively and deal with all the different, not just levels of expertise in these different environments, but the different levels of performance and latency to expect as you have applications that may need to run across all those, um you know, I used to work in the travel industry and you might have somebody trying to book a flight and that's but you know, bouncing across a cloud to a data center, to a different cloud, to a service provider and on back and you can imagine very quickly, how do you solve for those latency problems that we know are correlated to user experience and in an e commerce kind of context correlated with revenue because people balance if they can't get a good response, it's complicated. The fact is it's just it's a hard problem to solve. Um containers can definitely help solve part of that by providing a consistent platform that lets you take your applications from place to place. That lets you build a consistent set of expertise so that, you know, a container here is like a container, there is like a container over there um And work with those in a fairly consistent way. But there's always going to be differences. I think it's very dangerous to assume that because you have a container in multiple places, it's going to provide the same levels of guarantees. And we had a lot of these conversations back in the early 2010s when private cloud was really starting to pick up steam and we said Oh let's make compatible storage layers. Uh And it was true to a point you could provide api compatibility but you had to run as hard as you could to keep up with the changes and you couldn't provide the same level of resiliency, You couldn't provide the same level of data protection, you couldn't provide the same level of performance and global footprint and all those provide what what does the A. P. I mean to a developer using it. It's all of those things regardless of whether they're in an api spec somewhere. >>That's a great call out looking at the how things are moving so fast and you just got to keep up. It's almost like you want some peace, peace time kind of philosophy. So I gotta ask you as you look at the landscape again, you've got a unique perspective running product over a docker which puts you at the front lines and looking at the whole marketplace as as a whole cloud native. But you also been an analyst. I got to ask you what does success look like because as the world changes that it's not always obvious until you see it. And then you know that success and then some people are trying different approaches. How do you tell the winners from the losers or the better approaches versus the ones that struggle? Is there a pattern that you're seeing emerge from the pandemic as a team is a tech? What's the, what's the pattern of success that you see? Development teams and organizations deploying that's working and what's a sign of bad things? >>Yeah, I think, you know, one of the biggest patterns is the ability to iterate quickly and learn fast. You know, if there's nothing else that you can do, you just think about what are those basic principles that let you be Agile? Not as a development team. Agile is a company getting from those ideas and that customer feedback all the way through the loop. To build that thing, tested with your customers before you ship it, get it out there. Maybe you do some kind of a modern deployment practice to decrease your risk as you're doing so right. It's Canary, it's rolling, releases its blue green, all those things Right? How do you d risk, how do you experiment while you're doing so and how do you stay agile so that you're able to provide customer value as fast as possible? Almost every failure pattern that you see is one that happens because you're not listening to your customers effectively and often enough and you're not iterating quickly enough so you're building in a direction that is not what they wanted or needed, >>you know, looking at Dr khan 2021 this year, look at the calendar, the cube tracks in there, which I'm excited to do a bunch of coverage on. It's always fun. But you got the classic build share run, which is the ethos of Doctor, but you get a new track called accelerate, there is an acceleration coming out of the pandemic more than ever. Um it's been pretty cool. I mean you're seeing a lot more action in all areas but talk about the acceleration with containers and what you what you're seeing on the landscape side of the industry and how that's impacting customers. What specifically is this acceleration really all about? >>Yeah, when I think about what acceleration means to me, it's about how do you avoid building things, avoid finding things that you don't need to spend your time on? How can you pick things up? Incorporate those into your workflows, incorporate those into your applications that you don't have to build it yourself right, you can accelerate every time you want to accelerate. Its because somebody else built something that you can then reuse and build on top of whether its application components, whether that's SAs or apps, developer services, whether that's pre integrated pipelines. So you've already got plug ins and tools that work every one of those things as an accelerator, A lot of them are delivered by all kinds of different vendors all over the map. And so if they don't integrate well together, if there aren't open A. P. S, if there aren't pre integrated offerings, it's not gonna be an accelerator is gonna be exactly the opposite. It's going to be I want to get this thing in, let me bring in five or six different consulting teams to start trying to piece all this stuff together. Big, big slow down. So the pretty integrated solutions, the open A. P. S. Those are the kinds of things that really are going to accelerate people. >>I can't I can't agree with you more on this whole slowdown thing. And one of the hardest things to do is insert new team members are new kind of rules and process into kind of already accelerated momentum, which is hard. This is a hard new kind of a cloud native dynamic, which is scale and speed are critical, right? So it's one of those things that's actually benefit. But if you don't rein it in a little bit, how do you balance that? What's your advice to folks? This is, this is a common problem. I mean, it could get away from you. It's on one hand, but if you slow down too much, it's a gridlock and you, you misfire. What's your thoughts on this? >>Yeah, that, that balance of scale and speed. Um, and it definitely is a balance there. You know, I think there's always a danger of over architect ng for your current state of reality. Um, and you know, one of the things that I've learned over the years is, you've got to, you got to scale your process and scale your architecture to where you're at and where you're going to be soon, if you start Designing for five years, 10 years down the road, um it's going to slow you down in the short term and you might never get to where you thought you were going to be in five or 10 years. You've got to build for where you're at, built for where you're going soon, you're not gonna go for the future. And this is, it ties into these ideas like evolutionary architecture, like how do you build in a way that makes change easy because, you know, things are always going to change. Um, you know, some of the recent trends around things like project product playing so well to this, right? It's not like a project team comes together and builds the solution and then walks away and the solution works untouched for years or decades. Instead, it's it's that agile approach of is a product team there long lived. They own what they're building and they support it and they continue to enhance it, going forward to improve their ability to meet their customers needs over time. >>Yeah, and I think that's a super important point. The magical product team that just scales infinitely by itself while you're sleeping is different. Again, the team formation is an indicator of that. So, I think this whole agility going to the next level really is all about, you know, a series of these teams. Micro micro teams. Microservices, I mean, again, monolithic applications yielded monolithic organizations. >>Microservices >>brings in kind of this open source ethos, this new hate to use the term to Pizza team because it's an Amazonian thing, but it kind of applies here, Right? So you got to have these teams. I had to focus and to end and take ownership of that, whether it's product, platform or project at the end of the day, you're still serving customers. Final question for you on. Well, I got you here. I know end user experience you brought this up earlier. This is a huge important piece. I think last year, you and I talked about this briefly in our interview as developers come to the front lines of the business, some of them all don't have M B A. S and that always, you know, going to business school and some of the best engineers shouldn't go to business school in my opinion, But but you know, they have to learn the vernacular of complex topics, understand quality, get bring craft into the software more and more developers on the front lines closer and closer to the customer as they go direct. This is a huge change from just 5, 10 years ago. What's your thoughts on this? And what do you tell people when when they say hey donnie what how should I ah posture to the customer? What can I do to get better? What do you say to that? >>Yeah it's a great question. Um and it's one that I think a lot of companies are struggling to solve. How do we bring developers closer to the customers? And what does that mean? One of the things that we do regularly at Dr is we bring our developers along on customer interviews. So our product managers are constantly out there, you know kind of beating the virtual street, talking to developers talking to customers. Um and regularly they'll bring developers on the same team along. This is super valuable in helping our developers really build an understanding of the customers are building for, right. It may not even be about that specific thing that they're building on that one day. Um but it's about understanding the customer's needs and really making that something that is internalized in the way they think about how do they solve problems? How do they design solutions? How do they do? So in a way that is much more likely to resonate with the customers. Um Do they have an NBA? No, but where do you start? You gotta start somewhere? You start by bringing people into the conversation, so we don't expect them to lead an interview. We expect them to come along, learn and ask questions. And what happens so often is that people with, you know, the business in other companies might say yeah, developers, they're just these tech people will just like give him a set of requirements and they'll deliver stuff. Um but bring them along for the ride and letting them interact with the customers that are using their product is an amazing and exciting experience for developers. We hear consistently just super excited, treat back. >>It's clearly the trend. I mean one of the best, the best performing teams have the business and developers working together. It's really interesting phenomenon. I think it's going to change the makeup of taking that and to end approach to a whole nother level dani. Great to have you on. Great to see you final question. Um take a minute to put a plug in for the product team over there. What are you working on? What are you most excited about? Give a quick plug? >>You know, I am super excited about what we're doing in both trusted content and around team collaboration. Um I think both of those are just going to be amazing. Amazing opportunities to improve how developers are working on their microservices. It's so fragmented, it's so complicated that helping make that easier is going to be really important and valuable an area for development teams to focus on. >>Uh, Dr khan 2021 Virtual, Donnie Bergholz, VP of products and Dakar, good friend of the CUBA and the industry as well. Dani, thanks for that. Great insight and sharing some gems you drop there. Thanks. >>All right. Thank you. All >>right. Dr khan coverage I'm john for your host of the cube, The Cube track here at Dakar 2021 virtual. Thanks for watching. Mhm.

>>Okay, welcome back to the Cube coverage of Dr Khan 2021. I'm John for your host. Had a great guest here. Dana Lawson. Vice president. Engineering and technology partnerships that get up dana. Welcome to the cube. You're leading the engineering team over at GIT hub. Been been around the block in the cloud enterprise area. Congratulations. Welcome to the cube. >>Well, thanks for having me. Don, I am super excited. Dr. 2021 Wow. I can't believe it's been that long. Right. >>Got the keynote coverage automation. The top trend here in the world. DevoPS DEP sec apps, developer productivity, modern errors here, a lot of action uh and dr conscious more attendance every year, containers setting up the cloud native. You know the tsunami of new ways that people are programming. New way teams are formed new way people are being super productive with the pandemic. We've seen developers really lead the charge in the virtual work environment. So a lot of action. So first tell us what's going on in the developer community right now, give us your take, >>I mean, my take on it is the developer teams are just working closer than ever before. You know, we see this across all industries, whether you're going through your own digital transformation and trying to streamline your workflow, um you know, we have this concept of devops now for about a decade and and we all were hopeful I was one of those early adopters that like, yes, this will change the world, as you can imagine, and like we're seeing it materialized and I feel like in this historic year, uh it's on steroids, we see teams working across the aisle doing things we've never experienced before with this concept of interconnected tools. And so we're seeing really the, I would say the practice of devops really going across every member of the team and not being just a practice that maybe one person on your team did. You know, this trend has been ongoing for a while. But with these new key technologies out there, it's really on fire in my opinion, >>outside of just the whole cloud native awesomeness that's happening. You see kubernetes enabling a lot of new things, the virtual work environment with the pandemic developers, just like just the way we've been working a long time. Finally, it just got standardized for the rest of the world, the world. Um they didn't really miss a beat and, and combined again with the cloud scale and we saw the earnings from all the big companies, the developers have been super productive this year. Do you see um that continuing and what, how is it going to change in your opinion as the pandemic kind of lifts a little bit and now the new normal gets back to real life. Certainly those benefits came out is what's your take on this engineering dynamic going on. >>I mean you said it they're like this is a common kind of workflow that people had pre pandemic, especially in the open source community where it's literally a bunch of random people around the world that don't obviously get to talk as as quickly and as uh you know, synchronously and so a saint communications gone up in what we've seen there is teams really tuning in their automation, right? So whereas you may have had it in your backlog to say, you know what, I should probably go automate that workflow now that we have been forced. Even even companies that haven't haven't thought about in the past to say, okay, how do I get code from A to B. Seamlessly? There's spending time on those workflows. and I think that we're seeing that naturally, you know, in the keynote where I mentioned some of the Research that we've done is we're seeing developers work more but we're seeing them work more on open source projects and the things that they want to work on not necessarily going and saying I'm going to go and spend 20 hours at work. But really it's that that continuation of like hey instead of automation being an afterthought we're gonna make it something that is at the forethought of what we're doing. And so what it's really done is just increase the time spent on writing great code and hopefully having a better up time. I am a I am a DEvops SRE sys admin, whatever you wanna call it at heart forever will be. Um and so you know, getting to have more time to spend on S. L. O. S. And really the, you know like I call it the safety guards, the rails of your system so that you can just really go in there and allow everybody to contribute. And that's what I think we're seeing and we're going to continue to see that as things just get easier as stuff happens out of the virtual box. >>I mean simple or easy. It's always a good strategy. I was just reporting for our team on the cube con and cloud native con. There's more cloud native con going on than cube con because kubernetes got kind of boring. Um, and enabled more cloud native development. And then the other trend that we've been reporting on is end user contribution to open sores. You're starting to see end users, not just the usual suspects like lift and whatnot. You're seeing like real enterprises like having teams contributing into open source in a big way. This is a kind of a new, interesting dynamic. What's your take on that? Is that a signal of simplicity? What does it mean? >>I'm going to tell you, I think that companies and big names that realized they were using open source and they have been all along, um, it's been around for a minute. Some of our most favorite libraries and frameworks have been open source from the beginning. You hear me talking about Java and Tomcat that's open source. And so it's really this understanding of the workflow. So I want to say that what we see now is there should be an investment because the world's team of open source developers are powering our technology and why shouldn't we as companies embrace and actually get back and spend that quality time because us innovating together on open source privately and publicly just makes everything better for everybody. And so I I think we're going to continue to see this trim. I'm excited about it. GIT hub has done some amazing work in this space by with get up sponsors because we want open source to continue to enable the innovation and having people participate. And now we're seeing it with businesses alike. And so I think we're going to see this practice continue on and really take a look not only of the technology they're using, but the open source practices like how do these maintainers and these open source teams shit reliable quality code that is changing the world. And how can we put those practices within our own development teams on what we're building for our customers? So you're just going to continue to see this. And I think also with that being said because the barrier of entry has has lowered some by the advancement. What we're seeing the rise of the citizen developer as well. So we're seeing you know people all within the company and some that are much more further along with their transformations participate in a way they never have before. Whether it's like you know the design part in the design thinking of it to like how do you curate and have a great experience for your customers. We're just seeing participation at all levels of development stack and that also is the stuff outside of the actual code being written because it's so interconnected and so I I don't know I'm excited. I'm excited to see what we're going to unlock by having people participate more so than ever and then having companies invest in that participation. >>I love your enthusiasm. I agree. I think it's a great time for open source because it has democratized, it is bringing in new people. The aperture of the personas coming in >>is not >>just computer science and engineering. This hybrid SRE rolls developing and then you've got creative. There's a creativity aspect coming back and I've been riffing on this for a few years but I'm kind of seeing this development, love to get your thoughts used to be like craftsmanship was involved in building software and then Agile came in ship fast and iterate. Um and now craft is coming back. You're starting to see creativity and the developer experience through collaboration tools and kind of this democratization. What's your thoughts on this? And no, I know you I know you think about this as an engineering leader. Um Craft agile bring them both together. Speed and quality is craft coming back. >>Craft is definitely coming back and I think it is because we we melt the mundane stuff, right? Like, you know, we're all hyper focused on like you want to be the bush out there, you gotta ship immediately agile, agile, agile. But what we know is like you can ship a bunch of stuff, nobody wants very fast, you can ship a bunch of stuff that hasn't been curated to really, you know, solve the problem now, you'll be fast but will be awesome. I think people demand more. And I really believe that because we've embraced some of these frameworks, workflows and tool sets, that we get a focus on the craft and that's what we're trying to do, right? Ultimately we want every person that builds to be an innovator and not just an innovator for innovation state, but because they're changing and affecting somebody's life, right? And so when we dig deep and focusing on the craft, and we still have these expertise, we're just gonna be applying that in a very intentional way versus okay, hurry up. Bill, Bill Bill, hurry up, hurry up. Bill Bill, Bill, go, go, go, because now it's connected. And so we're seeing the rise of that craft and what I think is going to in turn happen is we're all going to have a better experience, we're all going to reap the benefits of having that expertise. You know, there's a spirit sometimes when we talk about automation and devops and, you know, interconnected tool systems that maybe you're taking somebody's job that they were doing before the daily task. No way. All we're doing is saying like, cool, take the repeatable thing that you're doing over and over and over, and let's focus on that craft, lets you know if your security person and you want to get down and deep and understand where vulnerabilities are going to come from and things that people haven't even thought of. Cool, let's take away some of the other things that we know can be caught and solved without you paying attention in some aspects. I think we just need along the whole stack. So it's pretty exciting times. >>Yeah, I did it and we call that different, undifferentiated heavy lifting, you know, just get it out of the way since you brought that up. Let's take automation down that road of experience. What does it mean for the developer? Because this is really an opportunity. Right. So the phrase I've heard is if you do it more than a few times, just automated away. So when is the right time to automate where this automation play into the developer experience? When does it make it more productive? Where's the innovation angle you share your thoughts on when people look through the prism of automation productivity versus innovation? What's the what's the automation view there? >>I mean, you know it is it is a good like, you know, little metric could be done it five times and it's the same thing over and over and over. Your question is now like do you have to be doing that? I mean you should because you're doing it. So I think it's about finding and defining your own boundary for what you need, right? I mean it's hard to get out there and say every workflow like we can go and apply the stamp. We already tried that with agile frameworks for like everybody you're gonna do scrum, we're going to combine, you know what? It doesn't work. What we really need to do is have teams understand their workflows, right, understand and do some diagnosis and saying like we're in the system and I think that's powerful metrics and insights of going like where are we having a slowdown? Where are people spending their time if people are spending their time doing break fix or they're spending their time continuously trying to jam something into a certain pipeline, you have to ask yourself, is this something that we should be spending that time on? What if we had that time freed up? And so I do think you can go and put some good boundaries in there, whatever yours may be. I love I love some of those rule sets but really you know, deadlocks and automation starts with the process, right? We think about it and when I developed software always think about it through that design. Thinking lands of how will this work when I get to it. And so if we're focusing on the design aspect and the user experience, then we start looking at the pieces in between from that code to having people use it and say what do I need to do? And sometimes you know depending on your industry, you may have these other needs that not everybody has. So it's hard to say there's a one size fits all. But there is a good rule like if you've done the same repeatable thing over every every day, uh numerous days like you probably should just go spend the time to automate that. And I think it's the convincing point, right? Like if we go and and a lot of us are are nerds and engineers at heart and I love freaking math. So it's that like okay if we spend two hours building maybe a hub action for a doctor one time instead of somebody happened to repeat this process no matter what it is. Like you're giving that time back in that time is mental capacity, mental capacity that can be applied to something that's more important and hopefully the more important thing is the user experience. Um So yeah, I mean you know we all have those little systems out there. I say use them but take a step back. I think the bigger, the harder part is like yes, you will have to slow down for a minute, which is scary to go and build something repeatable so that you can speed back up. You know, >>it's awesome. Great, great inside love, love the energy a lot to ask you while you're here because this is something I've been thinking about. I'm hearing a lot of developers talking about, understand the workflow you mentioned that's a key thing. I love that. Getting in and understanding the customer experience working backwards, but that brings up the whole. How do you form the teams? How do you think about team formation? Because at cloud scale with cloud native, you can use building blocks, You have automation, you can easily compose and then build intellectual property around things. Use containers, make things easier. So as you start thinking about teams, is it better to have teams focus on, say workflows and then decoupled teams? Is there a strategy for general purpose teams or how do you look at the team formation from the developer perspective to make the experience great, high quality. Is there a state of the art in your opinion, given the compose ability and all the ease of use going on? I mean, what's the ideal way to think this through? What's your thoughts? >>Oh, you know, there's, I'm going to say there's not one team team to rule them all, there's not one team kind of foundation that's gonna be able to be applicable, it's all different, right? Like even within the same company, especially at scale, you may have these different compositions of your team and I think it comes down to like, what problems are you trying to solve within your workflow? What are you trying to accomplish? I think when we, when we step back and we think about our Ci cd pipelines and really code from idea into cloud that I believe in a unified system, because I don't want developers worrying about it and doing one offs, I'm like, you don't need to know that, and that's been an argument that's going on, you know, I'm a huge kubernetes fan and so it's been like, should, should, should the feature developers understand the entrance of kubernetes? I'm gonna say something controversial, I'm gonna say no, I'm gonna say they don't need to know, they need to know how to monitor alert and how to have smart rollbacks and have a system that does it for them. That's why we have Orchestration, that's why we have dr containers, that's why we have world class eight PM and monitoring systems in place because we've done that, we've done that hard work. So I would say no, they don't need to know that, so, but you still need these needs, right? Depending upon where you are in this transformation, right? Maybe you're still like, you know, integrating some of these cloud needed principles and toolsets and so you need some smes I do really love the SRE embedded model, not embedded, like on your, you know, like embedded, like a chip set, but embedded in the team, because that person really should be a mentor and should be a force multiplier. You don't want to fall in the trap and be like oh we have an SRE on the team. They're going to do all the devops stuff. No no no no they're going to go and help you think about your product through a customer lens right there. They're the experts going like whoa maybe we should have an S. L. A. Because this is a tier one feature lets go and make sure we build that automation so that we curate this feature with the highest level availability but then teach the team how to do that. So now you have this practice as a part right? Like you're honing your craft, you have this practice now. Does that mean they need to go learn everything about like the monitoring sweet and tools are used. No, but they should understand how to read the output of that. And so there's not one team size to rule them all. Unfortunately, I personally, I'll tell you what I'm a fan of is like I think that you should have flexibility. Like once again think about the points where you need to have the connective unified system, right? And then you have this opportunity for developers to have some agency and creative freedom because maybe you've been on a team that's been working on, I don't know, let's say your audit service. I think every every software has some component of audit uh, you know, in some ability because you want to know what he was using one well after they've done their tour of duty because most of the cool stuff, they've already fixed and made a feature set. Let them go roll into something else because then you have that connective tissue on the inner points of your system that are always the same, right? We want really repeatability. We want them just to focus on writing the code. And I think because of these advancements we are unlocking opportunity for developers to think broader, right? Like maybe you've been on the platform team and you want to go dip your toes into writing features well, 90 okay, maybe not 90 but also 80% of that, you know, every day repeatable task, like focus on that and get that shit out. But then you have the sme and you're really thinking holistically as a customer obsessed team of what you're building and why. So I love that. No one way. >>Yeah, I love the idea of the platform person just having more flex out because that brings a platform mindset to the other pieces, but also feature acceleration versus product strategy. Thinking through the arc of why you're building in the first place, Right? So and then the embedded SRE great point there, great call out there because everything's cloud scale now, you gotta have pen tests built in automation, >>who's gonna >>design that. So I think it's really interesting how you're putting that together and I think that's very relevant. Um and any um new things that you see happening now with with cloud Native, you mentioned cabernets, I think you know the story that we've been telling is kubernetes got boring and that's good. Right? So, >>meaning its meaning it's working >>and people like it, it's interoperability or frustration. It feels like a unifying connective tissue between under the hood and above at the application layer. So it's nice but the consequence of that is there's more cloud native going on, so that means more services are going to be connected and torn down. You mentioned observe ability and monitoring. That's important too. So as an engineering leader, that's not another department. Right? That's gonna be core to the developers. What's your thoughts on how to integrate observe ability now there's a zillion companies doing it now but is that you know >>there is a zillion. My thoughts are like heck yeah. Like conservative observe ability isn't at the end of the stack. Right, observe ability is apart just like qualities apart. Just like when we think about agile, let me just throw it this way right? Like when dr came right, we had it basically have this maybe this baby os encompassed on servers. So you can have multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple distributed. Right? I think of like let's let's say that like your team is that Docker container man, you want everything in their right? It is a part of the practice. You want your learning, you want your logging, you want it all wrapped up in this nice little bow and you want lots of them all working together harmoniously. The same thing can be said about our teams. We want them to be their own little micro operating system where they have all the resources available for them to go and do the thing that they are intending to do and not have to worry about that subset. But it also gives them that control. Right? So it's building in that layer of abstraction that's needed but also understanding why it's important. So it's a little bit of both. Right? We're not going to curate deep subject matter experts. You know, I'm, you know the Oh yes, I model and every aspect right? Like we're not going to turn a friend and engineer necessarily into a network engineer. But utilizing the tool sets, having a playbook where it is controlled, maintained in a part of your culture. All that's gonna do is allow you to move faster and it's allow you to see what's really running out there in the wild. And I see these trends happening. I think we're continuing to see the rise of cloud native technologies because applications now are really a set of a P. I. S. That go across the world and in and out. And so the way that we develop is slightly different. And so we need to think about, well, how is it orchestrated and deployed? Well, if you have a repeatable pattern once again, if we go back to that and think of our team and I promise nobody asked me to come up with this as like a little darker, a little docker container itself. You know, you're gonna write that image into what makes sense for you and have all the resources available and you're gonna rinse and repeat that over and over and over again. And so I mean, we're just seeing, seeing this continue this continuation of, you know, monitoring devops? S sorry, it's not a problem. It's a culture, right? It's not one person's job or a role. It's a part of how you build great software. It's just a practice. >>You mentioned abstraction layer used to be conventional wisdom that they were good. But there's trade offs whose performance tradeoffs or some overhead. Not anymore. It's good. You can basically build an abstraction layer and say, hey, I don't want to deal with networking anymore. It's gonna make it programmable. >>That's cool. No >>problem. So you start to see these new innovation patterns. Right. So what are you most excited about when you start to see these new kinds of things of being brought on that were limited years ago? Like you start an abstraction layers, you see the role of the SRE you're seeing um the democratization of new developers coming in that are bringing new perspectives. She's seeing all these new kinds of ways that's re factoring how people write code. But what are you seeing is the most exciting >>for me? Honestly, it's like the opportunity for anybody to really be a builder maker developer, right? You don't have to have a traditional CS degree if you do that's awesome, Like come and teach us awesome stuff that we probably should know. That's foundational. I don't have a CS degree. You know, we're moving on from these opportunities where it's self taught to where you actually 100% can go and learn and build and create. We're seeing the rise in these communities. I feel like these toolsets are really just lowering the barrier of entry for those people that don't have advantage to go to like a four year school and get a degree for people that are just like have a great idea what excites me is that next developer, You know, we talk about the 100 million developer sitting somewhere in the world, just going, I have a great idea and I'm gonna change the world and I don't know how to get started, but they do, they have it at their hands now. You know, if you can go onto a website, get a little bit dangerous with these tool sets, you can go and get your idea to the masses and what we're going to end up doing is like you said, democratizing tech, it's going to bring in new ways to think it's going to change how we interact with systems. We get we get our blinders on sometimes, especially, you know, I live in Portland on the West Coast, the US, we know that the world is vast, majorly huge, dynamic, awesome place. The things that work for me may not work for somebody on the other side of the world. The things that I do may not be relevant. But we're going to find that human connection. We're going to continue to say, well, wait a minute. How can we optimize for any human anywhere? How can we help take all these differences but doing them in a repeatable pattern. So like for me that's exciting is these toolsets that we've been working on for years, are now going to put put in people's hands that never thought they could. And that is exciting. And like to see to see the rise of just creativity is what really makes humans special because we build and make >>and the fact that it's more inclusive now becoming more inclusive on all aspects of inclusive whether it's individuals and coders types of code. So uh integration is the new normal right integrating in uh data control planes, all that goodness coming in because of the ease of use of developer experience. Super awesome. Um dana you're awesome. Great to have you on the cube and sharing your energy and insight. Great call outs on many topics. A lot of gems being dropped. Their thanks for coming on the cube. >>Well thanks for having me. It's been awesome and doctor comes been great. I can't wait to see the rest of the show. >>Dr khan 2021 Virtual real life coming back maybe in physical next year or hybrid for sure. Just the cube coverage of Dr khan 2021. I'm sean for your host. Thanks for watching

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to the DockerCon 2021 virtual coverage. I'm John Furrie host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto with a remote interview with a great guest Cuban alumni, Jim Walker VP of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs. Jim, great to see you remotely coming into theCUBE normally we're in person, soon we'll be back in real life. Great to see you. >> Great to see you as well John, I miss you. I miss senior live and in person. So this has got to do, I guess right? >> We we had the first multi-cloud event in New York city. You guys had was I think one of the last events that was going on towards the end of the year before the pandemic hit. So a lot's happened with Cockroach Labs over the past few years, accelerated growth, funding, amazing stuff here at DockerCon containerization of the world, containers everywhere and all places hybrid, pure cloud, edge everywhere. Give us the update what's going on with Cockroach Labs and then we'll get into what's going on at DockerCon. >> Yeah Cockroach Labs, this has been a pretty fun ride. I mean, I think about two and a half years now and John it's been phenomenal as the world kind of wakes up to a distributed systems and the containerization of everything. I'm happy we're at DockerCon talking about containerization 'cause I think it has radically changed the way we think about software, but more importantly it's starting to take hold. I think a lot of people would say, oh, it's already taken hold but if you start to think about like just, these kind of modern applications that are depending on data and what does containerization mean for the database? Well, Cockroach has got a pretty good story. I mean, gosh, before Escape I think the last time I talked to you, I was at CoreOS and we were playing the whole Kubernetes game and I remember Alex Povi talking about GIFEE Google infrastructure for everyone or for everyone else I should say. And I think that's what we've seen that kind of happened with the infrastructure layer but I think that last layer of infrastructure is the database. Like I really feel like the database is that dividing line between the business logic and infrastructure. And it's really exciting to see, just massive huge customers come to Cockroach to rethink what the database means in cloud, right? What does the database mean when we moved to distributed systems and that sort of thing, and so, momentum has been building here, we are, upwards of, oh gosh, over 300 paying customers now, thousands of Cockroach customers in the wild out there but we're seeing this huge massive attraction to CockroachCloud which is a great name. Come on, Johnny, you got to say, right? And our database as a service. So getting that out there and seeing the uptake there has just been, it's been phenomenal over the past couple of years. >> Yeah and you've got to love the Cockroach name, love it, survive nuclear war and winter all that good stuff as they say, but really the reality is that it's kind of an interesting play on words because one of the trends that we've been talking about, I mean, you and I've been telling this for years with our CUBE coverage around Amazon Web Services early on was very clear about a decade ago that there wasn't going to be one database to rule the world. They're going to many, many databases. And as you started getting into these cloud native deployments at scale, use your database of choice was the developer ethos just whatever it takes to get the job done. Now you start integrating this in a horizontally scalable way with the cloud, you have now new kinds of scale, cloud scale. And it kind of changed the game on the always on availability question which is how do I get high availability? How do I keep things running? And that is the number one developer challenge whether it's infrastructure as code, whether it's security shifting left, it all comes down to making sure stuff's running at scale and secure. Talk about that. >> Yeah, absolutely and it's interesting it's been, like I said, this journey in this arc towards distributed systems and truly like delivery of what people want in the cloud, it's been a long arc and it's been a long journey and I think we're getting to the point where people, they are starting to kind of bake resilience and scale into their applications and I think that's kind of this modern approach. Look we're taking legacy databases today. There are people are kind of lift and shift, move them into the cloud, try to run them there but they aren't just built for that infrastructure like the there's a fundamentally different approach and infrastructure when it talks, when you talk about cloud it's one of the reasons why John early on your conversations with the AWS Team and what they did, it's like, yeah, how do we give resilient and ubiquitous and always on scalable kind of infrastructure people. Well, that's great for those layers but when you start to get into the software that's running on these things, it isn't lift and shift and it's not even move and improve. You can't like just take a legacy system and change one piece of it to make it kind of take advantage of the scale and the resilience and the ubiquity of the cloud, because there's very very explicit challenges. For us, it's about re-architect and rebuild. Let's tear the database down and let's rethink it and build from the ground up to be cloud native. And I think the technologies that have done that, that have kind of built from scratch, to be cloud native are the ones that are I believe, three years from now that's what we're going to be talking about. I mean, this comes back to again, like the Genesis of what we did is Google Cloud Spanner. Spanner white paper and what Google did, they didn't build, they didn't use an existing database because they needed something for a transactional relational database. They hire a bunch of really incredible engineers, right? And I got like Jeff Dean and Sanjay Ghemawat over there, like designing and doing all these cool things, they build and I think that's what we're seeing and I think that's, to me the exciting part about data in the cloud as we move forward. >> Yeah, and I think the Google cloud infrastructure, everyone I think that's the same mindset for Amazon is that I want all the scale, but I don't want to do it like over 10 years I to do it now, which I love I want to get back to in a second, but I want to ask you specifically this definition of containerization of the database. I've heard that kicked around, love the concept. I kind of understand what it means but I want you to define it for us. What does it mean when someone says containerizing the database? >> Yeah, I mean, simply put the database in container and run it and that's all that I can think that's like, maybe step one I think that's kind of lift and shift. Let's put it in a container and run it somewhere. And that's not that hard to do. I think I could do that. I mean, I haven't coded in a long time but I think I could figure that out. It's when you start to actually have multiple instances of a container, right? And that's where things get really, really tricky. Now we're talking about true distributed systems. We're talking about how do you coordinate data? How do you balance data across multiple instances of a database, right? How do you actually have fail over so that if one node goes down, a bunch of them are still available. How do you guarantee transactional consistency? You can't just have four instances of a database, all with the same information in it John without any sort of coordination, right? Like you hit one node and you hit another one in the same account which transaction wins. And so the concepts in distributed systems around there's this thing called the cap theorem, there's consistency, availability, and partition tolerance and actually understanding how these things work especially for data in distributed systems, to make sure that it's going to be consistent and available and you're going to scale those things are not simple to solve. And again, it comes back to this. I don't think you can do it with legacy database. You kind of have to re-architect and it comes down to where data is stored, it comes down to how it's replicated, it comes down to really ultimately where it's physically located. I think when you deploy a database you think about the logical model, right? You think about tables, and normalization and referential integrity. The physical location is extremely important as we kind of moved to that kind of containerized and distributed systems, especially around data. >> Well, you guys are here at DockerCon 2021 Cockroach Labs good success, love the architectural flexibility that you guys offer. And again, bringing that scale, like you mentioned it's awesome value proposition, especially if people want to just program the infrastructure. What's going on with with DockerCon specifically a lot of talk about developer productivity, a lot of talk about collaboration and trust with containers, big story around security. What's your angle here at DockerCon this year? What's the big reveal? What's the discussion? What's the top conversation? >> Yeah, I mean look at where we are a containerized database and we are an incredibly great choice for developers. For us, it's look at there's certain developer communities that are important on this planet, John, and this is one of them, right? This is I don't know a developer doesn't have that little whale up in their status bar, right? And for us, you know me man, I believe in this tech and I believe that this is something that's driven and greatly simplify our lives over the next two to three to 10 to 15 years. And for us, it's about awareness. And I think once people see Cockroach, they're like oh my God, how did I ever even think differently? And so for us, it's kind of moving in that direction. But ultimately our vision where we want to be, is we want to abstract the database to a SQL API in the cloud. We want to make it so simple that I just have this rest interface, there's end points all over the planet. And as a developer, I never have to worry about scale. I never have to worry about DR right? It's always going to be on. And most importantly, I don't have to worry about low latency access to data no matter where I'm at on the planet, right? I can give every user this kind of sub 50 millisecond access to data or sub 20 millisecond access to data. And that is the true delivery of the cloud, right? Like I think that's what the developer wants out of the cloud. They want to code against a service like, and it's got to be consumption-based and you secure and I don't want to have to pay for stuff I'm not using and that all those things. And so, for us, that's what we're building to, and interacting in this environment is critical for us because I think that's where audiences. >> I want to get your thoughts on you guys do have success with a couple of different personas and developers out there, groups, classic developers, software developers which is this show is that DockerCon full of developers KubeCon a lot of operators cool, and some dads, but mostly cloud native operations. Here's a developer shops. So you guys got to hit the developers which really care about building fast and building the scale and last with security. Architects you had success with, which is the classic, cloud architecture, which now distributed computing, we get that. But the third area I would call the kind of the role that both the architects and the developers had to take on which is being the DevOps person or then becomes the SRE in the group, right? So most startups have the DevOps team developers. They do DevOps natively and within every role. So they're the same people provisioning. But as you get larger and an enterprise, the DevOps role, whether it's in a team or group takes on this SRE site reliability engineer. This is a new dynamic that brings engineering and coding together. It's like not so much an ops person. It's much more of like an engineering developer. Why is that role so important? And we're seeing more of it in dev teams, right? Seeing an SRE person or a DevOps person inside teams, not a department. >> Yeah, look, John, we, yeah, I mean, we employ an army of SREs that manage and maintain our CockroachCloud, which is CockroachDB as a service, right? How do you deliver kind of a world-class experience for somebody to adopt a managed service a database such as ours, right? And so for us, yeah I mean, SREs are extremely important. So we have personal kind of an opinion on this but more importantly, I think, look at if you look at Cockroach and the architecture of what we built, I think Kelsey Hightower at one point said, I am going to probably mess this up but there was a tweet that he wrote. It's something like, CockroachDB is the Spanner as Kubernetes is the board. And if you think about that, I mean that's exactly what this is and we built a database that was actually amenable to the SRE, right? This is exactly what they want. They want it to scale up and down. They want it to just survive things. They want to be able to script this thing and basically script the world. They want to actually, that's how they want to manage and maintain. And so for us, I think our initial audience was definitely architects and operators and it's theCUBE con crowd and they're like, wow, this is cool. This is architected just like Kubernetes. In fact, like at etcd, which is a key piece of Kubernetes but we contribute back up to NCD our raft implementation. So there's a lot of the same tech here. What we've realized though John, with database is interesting. The architect is choosing a database sometimes but more often than not, a developer is choosing that database. And it's like they go out, they find a database, they just start building and that's what happens. So, for us, we made a very critical decision early on, this database is wire compatible with Postgres and it speaks to SQL syntax which if you look at some of the other solutions that are trying to do these things, those things are really difficult to do at the end. So like a critical decision to make sure that it's amenable so that now we can build the ORMs and all the tools that people would use and expect that of Postgres from a developer point of view, but let's simplify and automate and give the right kind of like the platform that the SREs need as well. And so for us the last year and a half is really about how do we actually build the right tooling for the developer crowd too. And we've really pushed really far in that world as well. >> Talk about the aspect of the scale of like, say startup for instance, 'cause you made this a great example borg to Kubernetes 'cause borg was Google's internal Kubernetes, like thing. So you guys have Spanner which everyone knows is a great product at Google had. You guys with almost the commercial version of that for the world. Is there, I mean, some people will say and I'll just want to challenge you on this and we'll get your thoughts. I'm not Google, I'll never be Google, I don't need that scale. Or so how do you address that point because some people say, well this might dismiss the notion of using it. How do you respond to that? >> Yeah, John, we get this all the time. Like, I'm not global. My application's not global. I don't need this. I don't need a tank, right? I just need, like, I just need to walk down the road. You know what I mean? And so, the funny thing is, even if you're in a single region and you're building a simple application, does it need to be always on does it need to be available. Can it survive the failure of a server or a rack or an AZ it doesn't have to survive the failure of a region but I tell you what, if you're successful, you're going to want to start actually deploying this thing across multiple regions. So you can survive a backhoe hit in a cable and the entire east coast going out, right? Like, and so with Cockroach, it's real easy to do that. So it's four little SQL commands and I have a database that's going to span all those regions, right? And I think that's important but more importantly, think about scale, when a developer wants to scale, typically it's like, okay, I'm going to spin up Postgres and I'm going to keep increasing my instance size. So I'm going to scale vertically until I run out of room. And then I'm going to have to start sharding this database. And when you start doing that, it adds this kind of application complexity that nobody really wants to deal with. And so forget it, just let the database deal with all that. So we find this thing extremely useful for the single developer in a very small application but the beauty thing is, if you want to go global, great just keep that in notes. Like when that application does take off and it's the next breakthrough thing, this database going to grow with you. So it's good enough to kind of start small but it's the scale fast, it'll go global if you want to, you have that option, I guess, right? >> I mean, why wouldn't you want optionality on this at all? So clearly a good point. Let me ask you a question, take me through a use case where with Cockroach, some scenario develops nicely, you can point to the visibility of the use case for the developer and then kind of how it played out and then compare that and contrast that to a scenario that doesn't go well, like where where we're at plays out well, for an example, and then if they didn't deploy it they got hung up and went sideways. >> Yeah like Cockroach was built for transactional workloads. That that's what we are like, we are optimized for the speed of light and consistent transactions. That's what we do, and we do it very well. At least I think so, right. But I think, like my favorite customer of all of ours is DoorDash and about a year ago DoorDash came to us and said, look at we have a transactional database that can't handle the right volume that we're getting and falls over. And they they'd significant challenges and if you think about DoorDash and DoorDash is business they're looking at an IPO in the summer and going through these, you can't have any issues. So like system's got to be up and running, right? And so for them, it was like we need something that's reliable. We need something that's not going to come down. We need something that's going to scale and handle burst and these sort of things and their business is big, their businesses not just let me deliver food all the time. It's deliver anything, like be that intermediary between a good and somebody's front door. That's what DoorDash wants to be. And for us, yeah, their transactions and that backend transactional system is built on Cockroach. And that's one year ago, they needed to get experienced. And once they did, they started to see that this was like very, very valuable and lots of different workloads they had. So anywhere there's any sort of transactional workload be it metadata, be it any sort of like inventory, or transaction stuff that we see in companies, that's where people are coming to us. And it's these traditional relational workloads that have been wrapped up in these transactional relational databases what built for the cloud. So I think what you're seeing is that's the other shoe to drop. We've seen this happen, you're watching Databricks, you're watching Snowflake kind of do this whole data cloud and then the analytical side John that's been around for a long time and there's that move to the cloud. That same thing that happened for OLAP, is got to happen for OLTP. Where we don't do well is when somebody thinks that we're an analytic database. That's not what we're built for, right? We're optimized for transactions and I think you're going to continue to see these two sides of the world, especially in cloud especially because I think that the way that our global systems are going to work you don't want to do analytics across multiple regions, it doesn't make sense, right? And so that's why you're going to see this, the continued kind of two markets OLAP and OLTP going on and we're just, we're squaring that OLTP side of the world. >> Yeah talking about the transaction processing side of it when you start to change a distributed architecture that goes from core edge, core on premises to edge. Edge being intelligent edge, industrial edge, whatever you're going to have more action happening. And you're seeing, Kubernetes already kind of talking about this and with the containers you got, so you've got kind of two dynamics. How does that change the nature of, and the level of volume of transactions? >> Well, it's interesting, John. I mean, if you look at something like Kubernetes it's still really difficult to do multi-region or multicloud Kubernetes, right? This is one of those things that like you start to move Kubernetes to the edge, you're still kind of managing all these different things. And I think it's not the volumes, it's the operational nightmare of that. For us, that's federate at the data layer. Like I could deploy Cockroach across multiple Kubernetes clusters today and you're going to have one single logical database running across those. In fact you can deploy Cockroach today on top of three public cloud providers, I can have nodes in AWS, I could have nodes in GCP, I could have nodes running on VMs in my data center. Any one of those nodes can service requests and it's going to look like a single logical database. Now that to me, when we talked about multicloud a year and a half ago or whatever that was John, that's an actual multicloud application and delivering data so that you don't have to actually deal with that in your application layer, right? You can do that down in the guts of the database itself. And so I think it's going to be interesting the way that these things gets consumed and the way that we think about where data lives and where our compute lives. I think that's part of what you're thinking about too. >> Yeah, so let me, well, I got you here. One of the things on my mind I think people want to maybe get clarification on is real quick while you're here. Take a minute to explain that you're seeing a CockroachDB and CockroachCloud. There are different products, you mentioned you've brought them both up. What's the difference for the developers watching? What's the difference of the two and when do I need to know the difference between the two? >> So to me, they're really one because CockroachCloud is CockroachDB as a service. It's our offering that makes it a world-class easy to consume experience of working with CockroachDB, where we take on all the hardware we take on the SRE role, we make sure it's up and running, right? You're getting connection, stringing your code against it. And I think, that's side of our world is really all about this kind of highly evolved database and delivering that as a service and you can actually use it's CockroachDB. I think it was just gets really interesting John is the next generation of what we're building. This serverless version of our database, where this is just an API in the cloud. We're going to have one instance of Cockroach with multi-tenant database in there and any developer can actually spin up on that. And to me, that gets to be a really interesting world when the world turns serverless, and we have, we're running our compute in Lambda and we're doing all these great things, right? Or we're using cloud run and Google, right? But what's the corresponding database to actually deal with that? And that to me is a fundamentally different database 'cause what is scale in the serverless world? It's autonomous, right? What scale in the current, like Cockroach world but you kind of keep adding nodes to it, you manage, you deal with that, right? What does resilience mean in a serverless world? It's just, yeah, its there all the time. What's important is latency when you get to kind of serverless like where are these things deployed? And I think to me, the interesting part of like the two sides of our world is what we're doing with serverless and kind of this and how we actually expose the core value of CockroachDB in that way. >> Yeah and I think that's one of the things that is the Nirvana or the holy grail of infrastructure as code is making it, I won't say irrelevant, but invisible if you're really dealing with a database thing, hey I'm just scaling and coding and the database stuff is just working with compute, just whatever, how that's serverless and you mentioned Lambda that's the action because you don't want the file name and deciding what the database is just having it happen is more productivity for the developers that kind of circles back to the whole productivity message for the developers. So I totally get that I think that's a great vision. The question I have for you Jim, is the big story here is developer simplicity. How you guys making it easier to just deploy. >> John is just an extension of the last part of the conversation. I don't want to developer to ever have to worry about a database. That's what Spencer and Peter and Ben have in their vision. It's how do I make the database so simple? It's simple, it's a SQL API in the cloud. Like it's a rest interface, I code against it, I run queries against it, I never have to worry about scaling the thing. I never have to worry about creating active, passive, and primary and secondary. All these like the DevOps side of it, all this operation stuff, it's just kind of done in the background dude. And if we can build it, and it's actually there now where we have it in beta, what's the role of the cost-based optimizer in this new world that we've had in databases? How are you actually ensuring data is located close to users and we're automating that so that, when John's in Australia doing a show, his data is going to follow him there. So he has fast access to that, right? And that's the kind of stuff that, we're talking about the next generation of infrastructure John, not like we're not building for today. Like, look at Cockroach Labs is not building for like 2021. Sure, do we have something that's great. We're building something that's 22 and 23 and 24, right? Like what do we need to be as a extremely productive set of engineers? And that's what we think about all day. How do we make data easy for the developer? >> Well, Jim, great to have you on VP of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs, we've known each other for a long time. I got to ask you while I had got you here final question is, you and I have chatted about the many waves of in open source and in the computer industry, what's your take on where we are now. And I see you're looking at it from the Cockroach Labs perspective which is large scale distributed computing kind of you're on the new side of history, the right side of history, cloud native. Where are we right now? Compare and contrast for the folks watching who we're trying to understand the importance of where we are in the industry, where are we in and what's your take? >> Yeah John I feel fortunate to be in a company such as this one and the past couple that I've like been around and I feel like we are in the middle of a transformation. And it's just like the early days of this next generation. And I think we're seeing it in a lot of ways in infrastructure, for sure but we're starting to see it creep up into the application layer. And for me, it is so incredibly exciting to see the cloud was, remember when cloud was like this thing that people were like, oh boy maybe I'll do it. Now it's like, it's anything net new is going to be on cloud, right? Like we don't even think twice about it and the coming nature of cloud native and actually these technologies that are coming are going to be really interesting. I think the other piece that's really interesting John is the changing role of open source in this whole game, because I think of open source as code consumption and community, right? I think about those and then there's license of course, I think people were always there. A lot of people wrapped around the licensing. Consumption has changed, John. Back when we were talking to Dupe, consumption was like, oh, it's free, I get this thing I could just download it use it. Well consumption over the past three years, everybody wants everything as a service. And so we're ready to pay. For us, how do we bring free back to the service? And that's what we're doing. That's what I find like I am so incredibly excited to go through this kind of bringing back free beer to open source. I think that's going to be great 'cause if I can give you a database free up to five gig or 10 gig, man and it's available all over the planet has fully featured, that's coming, that's bringing our community and our code which is all open source and this consumption model back. And I'm super excited about that. >> Yeah, free beer who doesn't like free beer of course, developers love free beer and a great t-shirt too that's soft. Make sure you get that, get the soft >> You just don't want free puppy, you know what I mean? It was just like, yeah, that sounds painful. >> Well Jim, great to see you remotely. Can't wait to see you in person at the next event. And we've got the fall window coming up. We'll see some events. I think KubeCon in LA is going to be in-person re-invent a data breast for sure we'll be in person. I know that for a fact we'll be there. So we'll see you in person and congratulations on the work at Cockroach Labs. >> Thanks, John, great to see you again. All right, this keep coverage of DockerCon 2021. I'm John Furrie your host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching.

>>from around the >>globe it's the cube with >>coverage of Kublai >>Khan and Cloud Native Con Europe 2020 >>one virtual >>brought to you by red hat. The cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of Kublai khan 21 cloud native gone 21 virtual. I'm john for your host of the cube. We're here with a great segment of an entrepreneur also the creator and maintainer of fluent bit Eduardo Silva who's now the founder of Palihapitiya was a startup. Going to commercialize and have an enterprise grade fluent D influence bit Eduardo. Great to have you on. Thanks for coming on the cube >>during the place for having me here. So I'm pretty happy to share the news about the crew and whenever you want, >>exciting trends, exciting trends happening with C N C f koo Kahne cloud native cloud native a lot of data, a lot of management, a lot of logging, a lot of observe ability, a lot of end user um contributions and enterprise adoption. So let's get into it first by give us a quick update on fluent D anything upcoming to highlight. >>Yeah, well fluent is actually turning two years old right now. So it's the more metric project that we have a lot of management and processing in the market. And we're really happy to see that the sides are project that was started 10 years ago, its adoption. You can see continues growing ecosystem from a planning perspective and companies adopting the technology that that is really great. So it's very overwhelming and actually really happy to take this project and continue working with companies, individuals and and right now what is the position where we are now with through And these are part of the Roma is like one of the things that people is facing not because of the tool because people have every time there has more data, more Metro services the system are scaling up is like about performance, right? And performance is critical if you're slowing down data processing actually you're not getting the data at the right time where you need it right. Nobody's people needs real time query is real time analysis. So from a security perspective we're going to focus a lot on everything that is about performance I would say for this year and maybe the other one, I would say that we won't see many new futures around fluently itself as as a project so we'll be mostly about back texting and performance improvements. >>Yeah, I definitely want to dig in with you on the data and logging challenges around kubernetes especially with and to end workflows and there's the different environments that sits in the middle of. But first before we get there, just take a minute to explain for the folks um not that savvy with fluent bit. What is fluent bit real quick, explain what it is. >>Okay, so I will start with a quick story about this, so when we started flowing the, we envision that at some point I'm talking about six years ago, right, all this IOT train or embedded or h will be available and for that you we got back to heavy right? If you have a constraint environment or you want to process data in a more faster way without all the capabilities at that time we say that he might not be suitable for that. So the thing is okay and it was not longer like a single software piece right? We want to say through in this an ecosystem, right? And as part of the ecosystem we have sck where people can connect applications fluid the but also we say we need like a flu Indie but that could be lightweight and faster. Burundi is reading ruby right? And the critical part in C. But since it's written ruby of course there's some process calls on how do you process the data and how much you can scale? Right. So we said if you're going to dig into embedded or small constrained environment, let's write a similar solution. But in C language so we can optimize a memory, can optimize scenario and all this kind of um needs will be will will be effective, right? And we started to spread called fluent bed and through a bit it's like a nowadays like a lightweight version of Wendy, it has started for the Marilyn knows, but after a few years people from the cloud space, I'm talking about containers, kubernetes, they started to ask for more futures for flowing it because they wanted they have influence, but also they wanted to have flowing better than because of it was lively and nowadays we can see that what fluent established the market and true indeed, we're getting around $2 million dollars every single day. So nowadays the attraction of the break is incredible. And it's mostly used to um want to collect logs from the files from system be and for most of coordinated environment disabled, process all this information on a pen, meta data and solve all the problem of how do I collect my data? How do I make sure that the data has the right context meta data and I'm able to deliver this data. So a central place like a job provider or any kind of storage. >>That's great. And I love the fact that's written C, which kind of gives the, I'll say it more performance on the code. Less overhead, get deeper closer um and people No, no, see it's high performance, quick, quick stats. So how old is the project through a bit, What version are you on? >>Uh, a little bit. It's, I'm not sure it is turning six or seven this year, 96. It's been around >>for a while. >>Yeah, yeah. We just released this this week, one at 73 right. We have done more than 100 releases actually really settled two and it's pretty past sometimes we have releases every 23 weeks. So the operation, the club medical system is quite fast. People once and more future more fixes and they don't want to wait for a couple of months for the next release. They wanted to have the continue image right away to test it out and actually sends away as a project. We worked with most of providers like AWS Microsoft actor google cloud platform, the demon for this fixes and improvements are in a weekly basis. >>You guys got a lot of props, I was checking around on the internet, you guys are getting strong um, reviews on logging for kubernetes with the couple releases ago, you had higher performance improvements for google AWS logged in postgres equal and other environments. Um but the question that I'm getting and I'm hearing from folks is, you know, I have end to end workflows and they've been steady. They've been strong. But as more data comes in and more services are connecting to it from network protocols, two Other cloud services, the complexity of what was once a straight straightforward workflow and to end is impacted by this new data. How do you guys address that? How would you speak to that use case? >>Well, for for us data we have taken approaches. Data for us is agnostic on the way that it comes from but that it comes from and the format that comes from for for example, if you talk about the common uses case that we have now is like data come from different formats. Every single developer use the all looking format come from different channels, TCP file system or another services. So it is very, very different. How do we get this data? And that is a big challenge. Right? How do we take data from different sources, different format and you try to unify this internal and then if you're going to talk for example to less exert let's say you Jason you're going to talk to africa, they have their own binary protocol. So we are kind of the backbone that takes all the data transfer data and try to adapt to the destination expected payload from a technical perspective. Yeah, is really challenging. Is really challenging also that Nowadays, so two years ago people was finding processing, I don't know 500,000 messages per second, But nowadays they won 10, 20 40,000. So prime architecture perspective Yeah, there are many challenges and and I think that the teamwork from the maintaining this and with companies has provided a lot of value, a lot of value. And I think that the biggest proof here is that the adoption like adoption and big adoption, you have more banks reported more enhancement requests. All right. So if I get >>this right, you got different sources of data collection issues. If you look on the front end and then you got some secret sauce with bit fluent, I mean uh inside the kubernetes clusters um and then you deliver it to multiple services and databases and cloud services. That that right. Is that the key? The key value is that is that the key value proposition? Did I get that right with fluent bit? >>Mhm. Yeah, I would say most of the technical implementation when the of the value of the technical implementation, I would say that is towards being the vendor neutral. Right? So when you come, when you go to the market and you go to the talk to bank institution hospital form and if the company right, most of them are facing this concept of bender looking right, they use a Bender database but you have to get married. So they're tooling, right? And I'm not going to mention any inventor name. Right? Actually it's very fun. Well for example, the business model, this company that start with S and ends with swung right? For example is you pay as much money so you pay as much money compared to the data that you ingested. But the default tools in just the whole data. But in reality if you go to the enterprise they say yeah. I mean just in all my data into Splunk or X provider right? But from 100 that I'm interesting, which I'm paying for, I'm just using this service to query at least 20 of the data. So why I mean just in this 80 extra I didn't get it right. That's why I want to send and this is real use case there's this language is really good for where is analyzed the data But they said yeah, 80 of my data is just a five data. I will need it maybe in a couple of months just I want to send it to Amazon history or any kind of other a archive service. So users, the value that says is that I want to have a mentor neutral pipeline which me as a user, I went to this side work went to send data, went to send it and also I can come to my bills. Right? And I think that is the biggest value. So you can go to the market. They will find maybe other tools for logging or tools for Matrix because there's a ton of them. But I think that none of them can say we are gender neutral. Not all of them can offer this flexibility to the use, right? So from a technical language performance but from an end user is being the neutrality. >>Okay. So I have to ask you then here in the C n C F projects that are going on and the community around um um fluent bit, you have to have those kinds of enhancements integrations, for instance, for not only performance improvement, but extensive bility. So enterprises there, they want everything right. They make things very >>complicated. They're very >>complicated infrastructure. So if they want some policy they want to have data ingestion policies or take advantage of no vendor lock in, how is the community responding? How did what's your vision for helping companies now? You've got your new venture and you got the open source project, How does this evolve? How do you see this evolving eduardo? Because there is a need for use cases that don't need all the data, but you need all the data to get some of the data. Right. So it's a you have a new new >>paradigm of >>coding and you want to be dynamic and relevant. What's the how do you see this evolving? >>Yeah. Actually going to give you some spoilers. Right. So some years before report. Yeah. So users has this a lot of they have a lot of problems how to collect the data processing data and send the data. We just told them right, Performance is a continuous improvement, Right? Because you have always more data, more formats, that's fine. But one critical thing that people say, hey, you say, hey, I want to put my business logic in the pipeline. So think about this if you have to embed we are the platform for data. Right? But we also provide capabilities to do data processing because you can grab the data or you can do custom modifications over the data. One thing that we did like a year two years ago is we added this kind of stream processing capabilities, can you taste equal for Kaka? But we have our own sequel engine influence them. So when the data is flowing without having any data banks, any index or anything, we can do data aggregation. You can, you can put some business logic on it and says for all the data that matches this pattern, stand it to a different destination, otherwise send it to caracas plan or elastic. So we have, this is what we have now. Extreme processing capabilities. Now what is the spoiler and what we're going next. Right now there are two major areas. One of them is distributed. Extreme processing right? The capabilities to put this intelligence on the age, on the age I'm referring to for example, a cooper needs note right or constrained environment, right? Communities on the age is something that is going on. There are many companies using that approach but they want to put some intelligence and data processing where the data is being generated. Because there is one problem when you have more data and you want to create the data, you have to wait and to centralize all the data in the database for your service. And there's a legend see right, millions sometimes hours because data needs to be in Mexico. But what about it? To have 100 of notes, but each one is already right, influenced it. Why you don't run the queries there. That is one of the features that we have. And well now talking from the challenges from spoil perspectives, people says, okay, I love this pipeline. I noticed Lambert has a political architecture but the language see it's not my thing, right? I don't want to go and see. Nobody likes see that we are honest about that. And there are many mass words about security or not just nothing, which is true, right? It's really easy to mess up things and see. Right? So, and we said, okay, so now our next level, it's like we're going to provide this year the ability to write your own plug ins in Western webassembly. So with the web is simply interface. You can run your own pregnancy goal, rust or any kind of weapon sending support language and translate that implementation to native. Wasn't that fluent that will understand. So C as a language won't be with one being longer uploaded for you as a developer. As a company that wants to put more business logic into the bike. Well that is one of the things that are coming up and really we already have some docs but they're not ready to show. So maybe we can expect something for us at the end of this year. >>Great stuff by the way, from a c standpoint us, old timers like me used to program and see, and not a lot of C courses being taught, but if you do know see it's very valuable. But again, to your point, the developers are are focused on coding the apps, not so much the underlying. So I think that's that's key. I will like to ask you one final question of water before we wrap up, how do you deploy fluid bid? What's the is it is that you're putting it inside the cluster? Is there is that scripts, What's the what's the architecture real quick? Give us a quick overview of the architecture. >>Okay, so that it's not just for a classroom, you can run it on any machine. Windows, Linux, IBM Yeah, and that doesn't need to be a kubernetes. Classic. Right? When we created to invade Copernicus was quite new at the same time. So if you talk about kubernetes deploys as a demon set at the moment is pretty much a part that runs on every note like an agent. Right? Uh, all you can run necessarily on any kind of machine. Oh and one thing before we were, I just need to mention something that from the spoil it. But because it's just getting, we're having many news these days. Is that fluently used to be mostly for logging right? And influence the specifically project. We've got many people from years ago saying, you know what? I'm losing my agent for logging to a bed but I have my agents for metrics and sometimes this is quite heavy to have multiple agents on your age. So now flowing bed is extending the capabilities to deal with native metrics. Right. The first version will be available about this week in cuba come right. We will be able to process host matrix for application metrics and send them to permit use with open matrix format in a native way. So we extended the political system to be a better citizen with open metrics and in the future also with open telemetry, which is a hot thing that is coming up on this month. >>Everyone loves metrics. That's super important. Having the data Is really, really important as day two operations and get all this stuff is happening. I wanna thank you for coming on and sharing the update and congratulations on. The new venture will keep following you and look good for the big launch but fluent bit looking good. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you so much help governments. >>Okay this is the cubes coverage of Kublai khan 21 cloud Native Con 21 virtual soon we'll be back in real life at the events extracting the signal from the noise. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

>>mhm Yes, Welcome back to the cubes coverage of red hat summit 2021 virtual, which we were in person this year but we're still remote. We still got the Covid coming around the corner. Soon to be in post. Covid got a great guest here, Clayton Coleman architect that red hat cuba love and I've been on many times expanded role again this year. More cloud, more cloud action. Great, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>It's a pleasure >>to be here. So great to see you were just riffing before we came on camera about distributed computing uh and the future of the internet, how it's all evolving, how much fun it is, how it's all changing still. The game is still the same, all that good stuff. But here at Red had some and we're gonna get into that, but I want to just get into the hard news and the real big, big opportunities here you're announcing with red hat new managed cloud services portfolio, take us through that. >>Sure. We're continuing to evolve our open shift managed offerings which has grown now to include um the redhead open shift service on amazon to complement our as your redhead open shift service. Um that means that we have um along with our partnership on IBM cloud and open ship dedicated on both a W S and G C P. We now have um managed open shift on all of the major clouds. And along with that we are bringing in and introducing the first, I think really the first step what we see as uh huh growing and involving the hybrid cloud ecosystem on top of open shift and there's many different ways to slice that, but it's about bringing capabilities on top of open shift in multiple environments and multiple clouds in ways that make developers and operation teams more productive because at the heart of it, that's our goal for open shift. And the broader, open source ecosystem is do what makes all of us safer, more, uh, more productive and able to deliver business value? >>Yeah. And that's a great steak you guys put in the ground. Um, and that's great messaging, great marketing, great value proposition. I want to dig into a little bit with you. I mean, you guys have, I think the only native offering on all the clouds out there that I know of, is that true? I mean, you guys have, it's not just, you know, you support AWS as your and I B M and G C P, but native offerings. >>We do not have a native offering on GCPD offered the same service. And this is actually interesting as we've evolved our approach. You know, everyone, when we talk about hybrid, Hybrid is, um, you know, dealing with the realities of the computing world, We live in, um, working with each of the major clouds, trying to deliver the best immigration possible in a way that drives that consistency across those environments. And so actually are open shift dedicated on AWS service gave us the inspiration a lot of the basic foundations for what became the integrated Native service. And we've worked with amazon very closely to make sure that that does the right thing for customers who have chosen amazon. And likewise, we're trying to continue to deliver the best experience, the best operational reliability that we can so that the choice of where you run your cloud, um, where you run your applications, um, matches the decisions you've already made and where your future investments are gonna be. So we want to be where customers are, but we also want to give you that consistency. That has been a hallmark of um of open shift since the beginning. >>Yeah. And thanks for clarifying, I appreciate that because the manage serves on GCB rest or native. Um let me ask about the application services because Jeff Barr from AWS posted a few weeks ago amazon celebrated their 15th birthday. They're still teenagers uh relatively speaking. But one comment he made that he that was interesting to me. And this applies kind of this cloud native megatrend happening is he says the A. P. I. S are basically the same and this brings up the hybrid environment. You guys are always been into the api side of the management with the cloud services and supporting all that. As you guys look at this ecosystem in open source. How is the role of A PS and these integrations? Because without solid integration all these services could break down and certainly the open source, more and more people are coding. So take me through how you guys look at these applications services because many people are predicting more service is going to be on boarding faster than ever before. >>It's interesting. So um for us working across multiple cloud environments, there are many similarities in those mps, but for every similarity there is a difference and those differences are actually what dr costs and drive complexity when you're integrating. Um and I think a lot of the role of this is, you know, the irresponsible to talk about the role of an individual company in the computing ecosystem moving to cloud native because as many of these capabilities are unlocked by large cloud providers and transformations in the kinds of software that we run at scale. You know, everybody is a participant in that. But then you look at the broad swath of developer and operator ecosystem and it's the communities of people who paper over those differences, who write run books and build um you know, the policies and who build the experience and the automation. Um not just in individual products or an individual clouds, but across the open source ecosystem. Whether it's technologies like answerable or Terror form, whether it's best practices websites around running kubernetes, um every every part of the community is really involved in driving up uh driving consistency, um driving predictability and driving reliability and what we try to do is actually work within those constraints um to take the ecosystem and to push it a little bit further. So the A. P. I. S. May be similar, but over time those differences can trip you up. And a lot of what I think we talked about where the industry is going, where where we want to be is everyone ultimately is going to own some responsibility for keeping their services running and making sure that their applications and their businesses are successful. The best outcome would be that the A. P. R. S are the same and they're open and that both the cloud providers and the open source ecosystem and vendors and partners who drive many of these open source communities are actually all working together to have the most consistent environment to make portability a true strength. But when someone does differentiate and has a true best to bring service, we don't want to build artificial walls between those. I mean, I mean, that's hybrid cloud is you're going to make choices that make sense for you if we tell people that their choices don't work or they can't integrate or, you know, an open source project doesn't support this vendor, that vendor, we're actually leaving a lot of the complexity buried in those organizations. So I think this is a great time to, as we turn over for cloud. Native looking at how we, as much as possible try to drive those ap is closer together and the consistency underneath them is both a community and a vendor. And uh for red hat, it's part of what we do is a core mission is trying to make sure that that consistency is actually real. You don't have to worry about those details when you're ignoring them. >>That's a great point. Before I get into some architectural impact, I want to get your thoughts on um, the, this trends going on, Everyone jumps on the bandwagon. You know, you say, oh yeah, I gotta, I want a data cloud, you know, everything is like the new, you know, they saw Snowflake Apollo, I gotta have some, I got some of that data, You've got streaming data services, you've got data services and native into the, these platforms. But a lot of these companies think it's just, you're just gonna get a data cloud, just, it's so easy. Um, they might try something and then they get stuck with it or they have to re factor, >>how do you look >>at that as an architect when you have these new hot trends like say a data cloud, how should customers be thinking about kicking the tires on services like that And how should they think holistically around architect in that? >>There's a really interesting mindset is, uh, you know, we deal with this a lot. Everyone I talked to, you know, I've been with red hat for 10 years now in an open shift. All 10 years of that. We've gone through a bunch of transformations. Um, and every time I talked to, you know, I've talked to the same companies and organizations over the last 10 years, each point in their evolution, they're making decisions that are the right decision at the time. Um, they're choosing a new capability. So platform as a service is a great example of a capability that allowed a lot of really large organizations to standardize. Um, that ties into digital transformation. Ci CD is another big trend where it's an obvious wind. But depending on where you jumped on the bandwagon, depending on when you adopted, you're going to make a bunch of different trade offs. And that, that process is how do we improve the ability to keep all of the old stuff moving forward as well? And so open api is open standards are a big part of that, but equally it's understanding the trade offs that you're going to make and clearly communicating those so with data lakes. Um, there was kind of the 1st and 2nd iterations of data lakes, there was the uh, in the early days these capabilities were knew they were based around open source software. Um, a lot of the Hadoop and big data ecosystem, you know, started based on some of these key papers from amazon and google and others taking infrastructure ideas bringing them to scale. We went through a whole evolution of that and the input and the output of that basically let us into the next phase, which I think is the second phase of data leak, which is we have this data are tools are so much better because of that first phase that the investments we made the first time around, we're going to have to pay another investment to make that transformation. And so I've actually, I never want to caution someone not to jump early, but it has to be the right jump and it has to be something that really gives you a competitive advantage. A lot of infrastructure technology is you should make the choices that you make one or two big bets and sometimes people say this, you call it using their innovation tokens. You need to make the bets on big technologies that you operate more effectively at scale. It is somewhat hard to predict that. I certainly say that I've missed quite a few of the exciting transformations in the field just because, um, it wasn't always obvious that it was going to pay off to the degree that um, customers would need. >>So I gotta ask you on the real time applications side of it, that's been a big trend, certainly in cloud. But as you look at hybrid hybrid cloud environments, for instance, streaming data has been a big issue. Uh any updates there from you on your managed service? >>That's right. So one of we have to manage services um that are both closely aligned three managed services that are closely aligned with data in three different ways. And so um one of them is redhead open shift streams for Apache Kafka, which is managed cloud service that focuses on bringing that streaming data and letting you run it across multiple environments. And I think that, you know, we get to the heart of what's the purpose of uh managed services is to reduce operational overhead and to take responsibilities that allow users to focus on the things that actually matter for them. So for us, um managed open shift streams is really about the flow of data between applications in different environments, whether that's from the edge to an on premise data center, whether it's an on premise data center to the cloud. And increasingly these services which were running in the public cloud, increasingly these services have elements that run in the public cloud, but also key elements that run close to where your applications are. And I think that bridge is actually really important for us. That's a key component of hybrid is connecting the different locations and different footprints. So for us the focus is really how do we get data moving to the right place that complements our API management service, which is an add on for open ship dedicated, which means once you've brought the data and you need to expose it back out to other applications in the environment, you can build those applications on open shift, you can leverage the capabilities of open shift api management to expose them more easily, both to end customers or to other applications. And then our third services redhead open shift data science. Um and that is a, an integration that makes it easy for data scientists in a kubernetes environment. On open shift, they easily bring together the data to make, to analyze it and to help route it is appropriate. So those three facets for us are pretty important. They can be used in many different ways, but that focus on the flow of data across these different environments is really a key part of our longer term strategy. >>You know, all the customer checkboxes there you mentioned earlier. I mean I'll just summarize that that you said, you know, obviously value faster application velocity time to value. Those are like the checkboxes, Gardner told analysts check those lower complexity. Oh, we do the heavy lifting, all cloud benefits, so that's all cool. Everyone kind of gets that, everyone's been around cloud knows devops all those things come into play right now. The innovation focuses on operations and day to operations, becoming much more specific. When people say, hey, I've done some lift and shift, I've done some Greenfield born in the cloud now, it's like, whoa, this stuff, I haven't seen this before. As you start scaling. So this brings up that concept and then you add in multi cloud and hybrid cloud, you gotta have a unified experience. So these are the hot areas right this year, I would say, you know, that day to operate has been around for a while, but this idea of unification around environments to be fully distributed for developers is huge. >>How do you >>architect for that? This is the number one question I get. And I tease out when people are kind of talking about their environments that challenges their opportunities, they're really trying to architect, you know, the foundation that building to be um future proof, they don't want to get screwed over when they have, they realize they made a decision, they weren't thinking about day to operation or they didn't think about the unified experience across clouds across environments and services. This is huge. What's your take on this? >>So this is um, this is probably one of the hardest questions I think I could get asked, which is uh looking into the crystal ball, what are the aspects of today's environments that are accidental complexity? That's really just a result of the slow accretion of technologies and we all need to make bets when, when the time is right within the business, um and which parts of it are essential. What are the fundamental hard problems and so on. The accidental complexity side for red hat, it's really about um that consistent environment through open shift bringing capabilities, our connection to open source and making sure that there's an open ecosystem where um community members, users vendors can all work together to um find solutions that work for them because there's not, there's no way to solve for all of computing. It's just impossible. I think that is kind of our that's our development process and that's what helps make that accidental complexity of all that self away over time. But in the essential complexity data is tied the location, data has gravity data. Lakes are a great example of because data has gravity. The more data that you bring together, the bigger the scale the tools you can bring, you can invest in more specialized tools. I've almost do that as a specialization centralization. There's a ton of centralization going on right now at the same time that these new technologies are available to make it easier and easier. Whether that's large scale automation um with conflict management technologies, whether that's kubernetes and deploying it in multiple sites in multiple locations and open shift, bringing consistency so that you can run the apps the same way. But even further than that is concentrating, mhm. More of what would have typically been a specialist problem, something that you build a one off around in your organization to work through the problem. We're really getting to a point where pretty soon now there is a technology or a service for everyone. How do you get the data into that service out? How do you secure it? How do you glue it together? Um I think of, you know, some people might call this um you know, the ultimate integration problem, which is we're going to have all of this stuff and all of these places, what are the core concepts, location, security, placement, topology, latency, where data resides, who's accessing that data, We think of these as kind of the building blocks of where we're going next. So for us trying to make investments in, how do we make kubernetes work better across lots of environments. I have a coupon talk coming up this coupon, it's really exciting for me to talk about where we're going with, you know, the evolution of kubernetes, bringing the different pieces more closely together across multiple environments. But likewise, when we talk about our managed services, we've approached the strategy for managed services as it's not just the service in isolation, it's how it connects to the other pieces. What can we learn in the community, in our services, working with users that benefits that connectivity. So I mentioned the open shift streams connecting up environments, we'd really like to improve how applications connect across disparate environments. That's a fundamental property of if you're going to have data uh in one geographic region and you didn't move services closer to that well, those services I need to know and encode and have that behavior to get closer to where the data is, whether it's one data lake or 10. We gotta have that flexibility in place. And so those obstructions are really, and to >>your point about the building blocks where you've got to factor in those building blocks, because you're gonna need to understand the latency impact, that's going to impact how you're gonna handle the compute piece, that's gonna handle all these things are coming into play. So, again, if you're mindful of the building blocks, just as a cloud concept, um, then you're okay. >>We hear this a lot. Actually, there's real challenges in the, the ecosystem of uh, we see a lot of the problems of I want to help someone automate and improved, but the more balkanize, the more spread out, the more individual solutions are in play, it's harder for someone to bring their technology to bear to help solve the problem. So looking for ways that we can um, you know, grease the skids to build the glue. I think open source works best when it's defining de facto solutions that everybody agrees on that openness and the easy access is a key property that makes de facto standards emerged from open source. What can we do to grow defacto standards around multi cloud and application movement and application interconnect I think is a very, it's already happening and what can we do to accelerate it? That's it. >>Well, I think you bring up a really good point. This is probably a follow up, maybe a clubhouse talk or you guys will do a separate session on this. But I've been riffing on this idea of uh, today's silos, tomorrow's component, right, or module. If most people don't realize that these silos can be problematic if not thought through. So you have to kill the silos to bring in kind of an open police. So if you're open, not closed, you can leverage a monolith. Today's monolithic app or full stack could be tomorrow's building block unless you don't open up. So this is where interesting design question comes in, which is, it's okay to have pre existing stuff if you're open about it. But if you stay siloed, you're gonna get really stuck >>and there's going to be more and more pre existing stuff I think, you know, uh even the data lake for every day to lake, there is a huge problem of how to get data into the data lake or taking existing applications that came from the previous data link. And so there's a, there's a natural evolutionary process where let's focus on the mechanisms that actually move that day to get that data flowing. Um, I think we're still in the early phases of thinking about huge amounts of applications. Microservices or you know, 10 years old in the sense of it being a fairly common industry talking point before that we have service oriented architecture. But the difference now is that we're encouraging and building one developer, one team might run several services. They might use three or four different sas vendors. They might depend on five or 10 or 15 cloud services. Those integration points make them easier. But it's a new opportunity for us to say, well, what are the differences to go back to? The point is you can keep your silos, we just want to have great integration in and out of >>those. Exactly, they don't have to you have to break down the silos. So again, it's a tried and true formula integration, interoperability and abstracting away the complexity with some sort of new software abstraction layer. You bring that to play as long as you can paddle with that, you apply the new building blocks, you're classified. >>It sounds so that's so simple, doesn't it? It does. And you know, of course it'll take us 10 years to get there. And uh, you know, after cloud native will be will be galactic native or something like that. You know, there's always going to be a new uh concept that we need to work in. I think the key concepts we're really going after our everyone is trying to run resilient and reliable services and the clouds give us in the clouds take it away. They give us those opportunities to have some of those building blocks like location of geographic hardware resources, but they will always be data that spread. And again, you still have to apply those principles to the cloud to get the service guarantees that you need. I think there's a completely untapped area for helping software developers and software teams understand the actual availability and guarantees of the underlying environment. It's a property of the services you run with. If you're using a disk in a particular availability zone, that's a property of your application. I think there's a rich area that hasn't been mined yet. Of helping you understand what your effective service level goals which of those can be met. Which cannot, it doesn't make a lot of sense in a single cluster or single machine or a single location world the moment you start to talk about, Well I have my data lake. Well what are the ways my data leg can fail? How do we look at your complex web of interdependencies and say, well clearly if you lose this cloud provider, you're going to lose not just the things that you have running there, but these other dependencies, there's a lot of, there's a lot of next steps that we're just learning what happens when a major cloud goes down for a day or a region of a cloud goes down for a day. You still have to design and work around those >>cases. It's distributed computing. And again, I love the space where galactic cloud, you got SpaceX? Where's Cloud X? I mean, you know, space is the next frontier. You know, you've got all kinds of action happening in space. Great space reference there. Clayton, Great insight. Thanks for coming on. Uh, Clayton Coleman architect at red Hat. Clayton, Thanks for coming on. >>Pretty pleasure. >>Always. Great chat. I'm talking under the hood. What's going on in red hats? New managed cloud service portfolio? Again, the world's getting complex, abstract away. The complexities with software Inter operate integrate. That's the key formula with the cloud building blocks. I'm john ferry with the cube. Thanks for watching. Yeah.