(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Supercloud 2, which is an open industry collaboration between technologists, consultants, analysts, and of course, practitioners, to help shape the future of cloud. And at this event, one of the key areas we're exploring is the intersection of cloud and data, and how building value on top of hyperscale clouds and across clouds is evolving, a concept we call supercloud. And we're pleased to welcome Harvir Singh, who's the chief data architect and global head of data at Western Union. Harvir, it's good to see you again. Thanks for coming on the program. >> Thanks, David, it's always a pleasure to talk to you. >> So many things stand out from when we first met, and one of the most gripping for me was when you said to me, "When data moves, money moves." And that's the world we live in today, and really have for a long time. Money has moved as bits, and when it has to move, we want it to move quickly, securely, and in a governed manner. And the pressure to do so is only growing. So tell us how that trend is evolved over the past decade in the context of your industry generally, and Western Union, specifically. Look, I always say to people that we are probably the first ones to introduce digital currency around the world because, hey, somebody around the world needs money, we move data to make that happen. That trend has actually accelerated quite a bit. If you look at the last 10 years, and you look at all these payment companies, digital companies, credit card companies that have evolved, majority of them are working on the same principle. When data moves, money moves. When data is stale, the money goes away, right? I think that trend is continuing, and it's not just the trend is in this space, it's also continuing in other spaces, specifically around, you know, acquisition of customers, communication with customers. It's all becoming digital, and it's, at the end of the day, it's all data being moved from one place or another. At the end of the day, you're not seeing the customer, but you're looking at, you know, the data that he's consuming, and you're making actionable items on it, and be able to respond to what they need. So I think 10 years, it's really, really evolved. >> Hmm, you operate, Western Union operates in more than 200 countries, and you you have what I would call a pseudo federated organization. You're trying to standardize wherever possible on the infrastructure, and you're curating the tooling and doing the heavy lifting in the data stack, which of course lessens the burden on the developers and the line of business consumers, so my question is, in operating in 200 countries, how do you deal with all the diversity of laws and regulations across those regions? I know you're heavily involved in AWS, but AWS isn't everywhere, you still have some on-prem infrastructure. Can you paint a picture of, you know, what that looks like? >> Yeah, a few years ago , we were primarily mostly on-prem, and one of the biggest pain points has been managing that infrastructure around the world in those countries. Yes, we operate in 200 countries, but we don't have infrastructure in 200 countries, but we do have agent locations in 200 countries. United Nations says we only have like 183 are countries, but there are countries which, you know, declare themselves countries, and we are there as well because somebody wants to send money there, right? Somebody has an agent location down there as well. So that infrastructure is obviously very hard to manage and maintain. We have to comply by numerous laws, you know. And the last few years, specifically with GDPR, CCPA, data localization laws in different countries, it's been a challenge, right? And one of the things that we did a few years ago, we decided that we want to be in the business of helping our customers move money faster, security, and with complete trust in us. We don't want to be able to, we don't want to be in the business of managing infrastructure. And that's one of the reasons we started to, you know, migrate and move our journey to the cloud. AWS, obviously chosen first because of its, you know, first in the game, has more locations, and more data centers around the world where we operate. But we still have, you know, existing infrastructure, which is in some countries, which is still localized because AWS hasn't reached there, or we don't have a comparable provider there. We still manage those. And we have to comply by those laws. Our data privacy and our data localization tech stack is pretty good, I would say. We manage our data very well, we manage our customer data very well, but it comes with a lot of complexity. You know, we get a lot of requests from European Union, we get a lot of requests from Asia Pacific every pretty much on a weekly basis to explain, you know, how we are taking controls and putting measures in place to make sure that the data is secured and is in the right place. So it's a complex environment. We do have exposure to other clouds as well, like Google and Azure. And as much as we would love to be completely, you know, very, very hybrid kind of an organization, it's still at a stage where we are still very heavily focused on AWS yet, but at some point, you know, we would love to see a world which is not reliant on a single provider, but it's more a little bit more democratized, you know, as and when what I want to use, I should be able to use, and pay-per-use. And the concept started like that, but it's obviously it's now, again, there are like three big players in the market, and, you know, they're doing their own thing. Would love to see them come collaborate at some point. >> Yeah, wouldn't we all. I want to double-click on the whole multi-cloud strategy, but if I understand it correctly, and in a perfect world, everything on-premises would be in the cloud is, first of all, is that a correct statement? Is that nirvana for you or not necessarily? >> I would say it is nirvana for us, but I would also put a caveat, is it's very tricky because from a regulatory perspective, we are a regulated entity in many countries. The regulators would want to see some control if something happens with a relationship with AWS in one country, or with Google in another country, and it keeps happening, right? For example, Russia was a good example where we had to switch things off. We should be able to do that. But if let's say somewhere in Asia, this country decides that they don't want to partner with AWS, and majority of our stuff is on AWS, where do I go from there? So we have to have some level of confidence in our own infrastructure, so we do maintain some to be able to fail back into and move things it needs to be. So it's a tricky question. Yes, it's nirvana state that I don't have to manage infrastructure, but I think it's far less practical than it said. We will still own something that we call it our own where we have complete control, being a financial entity. >> And so do you try to, I'm sure you do, standardize between all the different on-premise, and in this case, the AWS cloud or maybe even other clouds. How do you do that? Do you work with, you know, different vendors at the various places of the stack to try to do that? Some of the vendors, you know, like a Snowflake is only in the cloud. You know, others, you know, whether it's whatever, analytics, or storage, or database, might be hybrid. What's your strategy with regard to creating as common an experience as possible between your on-prem and your clouds? >> You asked a question which I asked when I joined as well, right? Which question, this is one of the most important questions is how soon when I fail back, if I need to fail back? And how quickly can I, because not everything that is sitting on the cloud is comparable to on-prem or is backward compatible. And the reason I say backward compatible is, you know, there are, our on-prem cloud is obviously behind. We haven't taken enough time to kind of put it to a state where, because we started to migrate and now we have access to infrastructure on the cloud, most of the new things are being built there. But for critical application, I would say we have chronology that could be used to move back if need to be. So, you know, technologies like Couchbase, technologies like PostgreSQL, technologies like Db2, et cetera. We still have and maintain a fairly large portion of it on-prem where critical applications could potentially be serviced. We'll give you one example. We use Neo4j very heavily for our AML use cases. And that's an important one because if Neo4j on the cloud goes down, and it's happened in the past, again, even with three clusters, having all three clusters going down with a DR, we still need some accessibility of that because that's one of the biggest, you know, fraud and risk application it supports. So we do still maintain some comparable technology. Snowflake is an odd one. It's obviously there is none on-prem. But then, you know, Snowflake, I also feel it's more analytical based technology, not a transactional-based technology, at least in our ecosystem. So for me to replicate that, yes, it'll probably take time, but I can live with that. But my business will not stop because our transactional applications can potentially move over if need to. >> Yeah, and of course, you know, all these big market cap companies, so the Snowflake or Databricks, which is not public yet, but they've got big aspirations. And so, you know, we've seen things like Snowflake do a deal with Dell for on-prem object store. I think they do the same thing with Pure. And so over time, you see, Mongo, you know, extending its estate. And so over time all these things are coming together. I want to step out of this conversation for a second. I just ask you, given the current macroeconomic climate, what are the priorities? You know, obviously, people are, CIOs are tapping the breaks on spending, we've reported on that, but what is it? Is it security? Is it analytics? Is it modernization of the on-prem stack, which you were saying a little bit behind. Where are the priorities today given the economic headwinds? >> So the most important priority right now is growing the business, I would say. It's a different, I know this is more, this is not a very techy or a tech answer that, you know, you would expect, but it's growing the business. We want to acquire more customers and be able to service them as best needed. So the majority of our investment is going in the space where tech can support that initiative. During our earnings call, we released the new pillars of our organization where we will focus on, you know, omnichannel digital experience, and then one experience for customer, whether it's retail, whether it's digital. We want to open up our own experience stores, et cetera. So we are investing in technology where it's going to support those pillars. But the spend is in a way that we are obviously taking away from the things that do not support those. So it's, I would say it's flat for us. We are not like in heavily investing or aggressively increasing our tech budget, but it's more like, hey, switch this off because it doesn't make us money, but now switch this on because this is going to support what we can do with money, right? So that's kind of where we are heading towards. So it's not not driven by technology, but it's driven by business and how it supports our customers and our ability to compete in the market. >> You know, I think Harvir, that's consistent with what we heard in some other work that we've done, our ETR partner who does these types of surveys. We're hearing the same thing, is that, you know, we might not be spending on modernizing our on-prem stack. Yeah, we want to get to the cloud at some point and modernize that. But if it supports revenue, you know, we'll invest in that, and get the, you know, instant ROI. I want to ask you about, you know, this concept of supercloud, this abstracted layer of value on top of hyperscale infrastructure, and maybe on-prem. But we were talking about the integration, for instance, between Snowflake and Salesforce, where you got different data sources and you were explaining that you had great interest in being able to, you know, have a kind of, I'll say seamless, sorry, I know it's an overused word, but integration between the data sources and those two different platforms. Can you explain that and why that's attractive to you? >> Yeah, I'm a big supporter of action where the data is, right? Because the minute you start to move, things are already lost in translation. The time is lost, you can't get to it fast enough. So if, for example, for us, Snowflake, Salesforce, is our actionable platform where we action, we send marketing campaigns, we send customer communication via SMS, in app, as well as via email. Now, we would like to be able to interact with our customers pretty much on a, I would say near real time, but the concept of real time doesn't work well with me because I always feel that if you're observing something, it's not real time, it's already happened. But how soon can I react? That's the question. And given that I have to move that data all the way from our, let's say, engagement platforms like Adobe, and particles of the world into Snowflake first, and then do my modeling in some way, and be able to then put it back into Salesforce, it takes time. Yes, you know, I can do it in a few hours, but that few hours makes a lot of difference. Somebody sitting on my website, you know, couldn't find something, walked away, how soon do you think he will lose interest? Three hours, four hours, he'll probably gone, he will never come back. I think if I can react to that as fast as possible without too much data movement, I think that's a lot of good benefit that this kind of integration will bring. Yes, I can potentially take data directly into Salesforce, but I then now have two copies of data, which is, again, something that I'm not a big (indistinct) of. Let's keep the source of the data simple, clean, and a single source. I think this kind of integration will help a lot if the actions can be brought very close to where the data resides. >> Thank you for that. And so, you know, it's funny, we sometimes try to define real time as before you lose the customer, so that's kind of real time. But I want to come back to this idea of governed data sharing. You mentioned some other clouds, a little bit of Azure, a little bit of Google. In a world where, let's say you go more aggressively, and we know that for instance, if you want to use Google's AI tools, you got to use BigQuery. You know, today, anyway, they're not sort of so friendly with Snowflake, maybe different for the AWS, maybe Microsoft's going to be different as well. But in an ideal world, what I'm hearing is you want to keep the data in place. You don't want to move the data. Moving data is expensive, making copies is badness. It's expensive, and it's also, you know, changes the state, right? So you got governance issues. So this idea of supercloud is that you can leave the data in place and actually have a common experience across clouds. Let's just say, let's assume for a minute Google kind of wakes up, my words, not yours, and says, "Hey, maybe, you know what, partnering with a Snowflake or a Databricks is better for our business. It's better for the customers," how would that affect your business and the value that you can bring to your customers? >> Again, I would say that would be the nirvana state that, you know, we want to get to. Because I would say not everyone's perfect. They have great engineers and great products that they're developing, but that's where they compete as well, right? I would like to use the best of breed as much as possible. And I've been a person who has done this in the past as well. I've used, you know, tools to integrate. And the reason why this integration has worked is primarily because sometimes you do pick the best thing for that job. And Google's AI products are definitely doing really well, but, you know, that accessibility, if it's a problem, then I really can't depend on them, right? I would love to move some of that down there, but they have to make it possible for us. Azure is doing really, really good at investing, so I think they're a little bit more and more closer to getting to that state, and I know seeking our attention than Google at this point of time. But I think there will be a revelation moment because more and more people that I talk to like myself, they're also talking about the same thing. I'd like to be able to use Google's AdSense, I would like to be able to use Google's advertising platform, but you know what? I already have all this data, why do I need to move it? Can't they just go and access it? That question will keep haunting them (indistinct). >> You know, I think, obviously, Microsoft has always known, you know, understood ecosystems. I mean, AWS is nailing it, when you go to re:Invent, it's all about the ecosystem. And they think they realized they can make a lot more money, you know, together, than trying to have, and Google's got to figure that out. I think Google thinks, "All right, hey, we got to have the best tech." And that tech, they do have the great tech, and that's our competitive advantage. They got to wake up to the ecosystem and what's happening in the field and the go-to-market. I want to ask you about how you see data and cloud evolving in the future. You mentioned that things that are driving revenue are the priorities, and maybe you're already doing this today, but my question is, do you see a day when companies like yours are increasingly offering data and software services? You've been around for a long time as a company, you've got, you know, first party data, you've got proprietary knowledge, and maybe tooling that you've developed, and you're becoming more, you're already a technology company. Do you see someday pointing that at customers, or again, maybe you're doing it already, or is that not practical in your view? >> So data monetization has always been on the charts. The reason why it hasn't seen the light is regulatory pressure at this point of time. We are partnering up with certain agencies, again, you know, some pilots are happening to see the value of that and be able to offer that. But I think, you know, eventually, we'll get to a state where our, because we are trying to build accessible financial services, we will be in a state that we will be offering those to partners, which could then extended to their customers as well. So we are definitely exploring that. We are definitely exploring how to enrich our data with other data, and be able to complete a super set of data that can be used. Because frankly speaking, the data that we have is very interesting. We have trends of people migrating, we have trends of people migrating within the US, right? So if a new, let's say there's a new, like, I'll give you an example. Let's say New York City, I can tell you, at any given point of time, with my data, what is, you know, a dominant population in that area from migrant perspective. And if I see a change in that data, I can tell you where that is moving towards. I think it's going to be very interesting. We're a little bit, obviously, sometimes, you know, you're scared of sharing too much detail because there's too much data. So, but at the end of the day, I think at some point, we'll get to a state where we are confident that the data can be used for good. One simple example is, you know, pharmacies. They would love to get, you know, we've been talking to CVS and we are talking to Walgreens, and trying to figure out, if they would get access to this kind of data demographic information, what could they do be better? Because, you know, from a gene pool perspective, there are diseases and stuff that are very prevalent in one community versus the other. We could probably equip them with this information to be able to better, you know, let's say, staff their pharmacies or keep better inventory of products that could be used for the population in that area. Similarly, the likes of Walmarts and Krogers, they would like to have more, let's say, ethnic products in their aisles, right? How do you enable that? That data is primarily, I think we are the biggest source of that data. So we do take pride in it, but you know, with caution, we are obviously exploring that as well. >> My last question for you, Harvir, is I'm going to ask you to do a thought exercise. So in that vein, that whole monetization piece, imagine that now, Harvir, you are running a P&L that is going to monetize that data. And my question to you is a there's a business vector and a technology vector. So from a business standpoint, the more distribution channels you have, the better. So running on AWS cloud, partnering with Microsoft, partnering with Google, going to market with them, going to give you more revenue. Okay, so there's a motivation for multi-cloud or supercloud. That's indisputable. But from a technical standpoint, is there an advantage to running on multiple clouds or is that a disadvantage for you? >> It's, I would say it's a disadvantage because if my data is distributed, I have to combine it at some place. So the very first step that we had taken was obviously we brought in Snowflake. The reason, we wanted our analytical data and we want our historical data in the same place. So we are already there and ready to share. And we are actually participating in the data share, but in a private setting at the moment. So we are technically enabled to share, unless there is a significant, I would say, upside to moving that data to another cloud. I don't see any reason because I can enable anyone to come and get it from Snowflake. It's already enabled for us. >> Yeah, or if somehow, magically, several years down the road, some standard developed so you don't have to move the data. Maybe there's a new, Mogli is talking about a new data architecture, and, you know, that's probably years away, but, Harvir, you're an awesome guest. I love having you on, and really appreciate you participating in the program. >> I appreciate it. Thank you, and good luck (indistinct) >> Ah, thank you very much. This is Dave Vellante for John Furrier and the entire Cube community. Keep it right there for more great coverage from Supercloud 2. (uplifting music)

>>From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and E T R. This is breaking analysis with Dave Valante. >>Making technology predictions in 2022 was tricky business, especially if you were projecting the performance of markets or identifying I P O prospects and making binary forecast on data AI and the macro spending climate and other related topics in enterprise tech 2022, of course was characterized by a seesaw economy where central banks were restructuring their balance sheets. The war on Ukraine fueled inflation supply chains were a mess. And the unintended consequences of of forced march to digital and the acceleration still being sorted out. Hello and welcome to this week's weekly on Cube Insights powered by E T R. In this breaking analysis, we continue our annual tradition of transparently grading last year's enterprise tech predictions. And you may or may not agree with our self grading system, but look, we're gonna give you the data and you can draw your own conclusions and tell you what, tell us what you think. >>All right, let's get right to it. So our first prediction was tech spending increases by 8% in 2022. And as we exited 2021 CIOs, they were optimistic about their digital transformation plans. You know, they rushed to make changes to their business and were eager to sharpen their focus and continue to iterate on their digital business models and plug the holes that they, the, in the learnings that they had. And so we predicted that 8% rise in enterprise tech spending, which looked pretty good until Ukraine and the Fed decided that, you know, had to rush and make up for lost time. We kind of nailed the momentum in the energy sector, but we can't give ourselves too much credit for that layup. And as of October, Gartner had it spending growing at just over 5%. I think it was 5.1%. So we're gonna take a C plus on this one and, and move on. >>Our next prediction was basically kind of a slow ground ball. The second base, if I have to be honest, but we felt it was important to highlight that security would remain front and center as the number one priority for organizations in 2022. As is our tradition, you know, we try to up the degree of difficulty by specifically identifying companies that are gonna benefit from these trends. So we highlighted some possible I P O candidates, which of course didn't pan out. S NQ was on our radar. The company had just had to do another raise and they recently took a valuation hit and it was a down round. They raised 196 million. So good chunk of cash, but, but not the i p O that we had predicted Aqua Securities focus on containers and cloud native. That was a trendy call and we thought maybe an M SS P or multiple managed security service providers like Arctic Wolf would I p o, but no way that was happening in the crummy market. >>Nonetheless, we think these types of companies, they're still faring well as the talent shortage in security remains really acute, particularly in the sort of mid-size and small businesses that often don't have a sock Lacework laid off 20% of its workforce in 2022. And CO C e o Dave Hatfield left the company. So that I p o didn't, didn't happen. It was probably too early for Lacework. Anyway, meanwhile you got Netscope, which we've cited as strong in the E T R data as particularly in the emerging technology survey. And then, you know, I lumia holding its own, you know, we never liked that 7 billion price tag that Okta paid for auth zero, but we loved the TAM expansion strategy to target developers beyond sort of Okta's enterprise strength. But we gotta take some points off of the failure thus far of, of Okta to really nail the integration and the go to market model with azero and build, you know, bring that into the, the, the core Okta. >>So the focus on endpoint security that was a winner in 2022 is CrowdStrike led that charge with others holding their own, not the least of which was Palo Alto Networks as it continued to expand beyond its core network security and firewall business, you know, through acquisition. So overall we're gonna give ourselves an A minus for this relatively easy call, but again, we had some specifics associated with it to make it a little tougher. And of course we're watching ve very closely this this coming year in 2023. The vendor consolidation trend. You know, according to a recent Palo Alto network survey with 1300 SecOps pros on average organizations have more than 30 tools to manage security tools. So this is a logical way to optimize cost consolidating vendors and consolidating redundant vendors. The E T R data shows that's clearly a trend that's on the upswing. >>Now moving on, a big theme of 2020 and 2021 of course was remote work and hybrid work and new ways to work and return to work. So we predicted in 2022 that hybrid work models would become the dominant protocol, which clearly is the case. We predicted that about 33% of the workforce would come back to the office in 2022 in September. The E T R data showed that figure was at 29%, but organizations expected that 32% would be in the office, you know, pretty much full-time by year end. That hasn't quite happened, but we were pretty close with the projection, so we're gonna take an A minus on this one. Now, supply chain disruption was another big theme that we felt would carry through 2022. And sure that sounds like another easy one, but as is our tradition, again we try to put some binary metrics around our predictions to put some meat in the bone, so to speak, and and allow us than you to say, okay, did it come true or not? >>So we had some data that we presented last year and supply chain issues impacting hardware spend. We said at the time, you can see this on the left hand side of this chart, the PC laptop demand would remain above pre covid levels, which would reverse a decade of year on year declines, which I think started in around 2011, 2012. Now, while demand is down this year pretty substantially relative to 2021, I D C has worldwide unit shipments for PCs at just over 300 million for 22. If you go back to 2019 and you're looking at around let's say 260 million units shipped globally, you know, roughly, so, you know, pretty good call there. Definitely much higher than pre covid levels. But so what you might be asking why the B, well, we projected that 30% of customers would replace security appliances with cloud-based services and that more than a third would replace their internal data center server and storage hardware with cloud services like 30 and 40% respectively. >>And we don't have explicit survey data on exactly these metrics, but anecdotally we see this happening in earnest. And we do have some data that we're showing here on cloud adoption from ET R'S October survey where the midpoint of workloads running in the cloud is around 34% and forecast, as you can see, to grow steadily over the next three years. So this, well look, this is not, we understand it's not a one-to-one correlation with our prediction, but it's a pretty good bet that we were right, but we gotta take some points off, we think for the lack of unequivocal proof. Cause again, we always strive to make our predictions in ways that can be measured as accurate or not. Is it binary? Did it happen, did it not? Kind of like an O K R and you know, we strive to provide data as proof and in this case it's a bit fuzzy. >>We have to admit that although we're pretty comfortable that the prediction was accurate. And look, when you make an hard forecast, sometimes you gotta pay the price. All right, next, we said in 2022 that the big four cloud players would generate 167 billion in IS and PaaS revenue combining for 38% market growth. And our current forecasts are shown here with a comparison to our January, 2022 figures. So coming into this year now where we are today, so currently we expect 162 billion in total revenue and a 33% growth rate. Still very healthy, but not on our mark. So we think a w s is gonna miss our predictions by about a billion dollars, not, you know, not bad for an 80 billion company. So they're not gonna hit that expectation though of getting really close to a hundred billion run rate. We thought they'd exit the year, you know, closer to, you know, 25 billion a quarter and we don't think they're gonna get there. >>Look, we pretty much nailed Azure even though our prediction W was was correct about g Google Cloud platform surpassing Alibaba, Alibaba, we way overestimated the performance of both of those companies. So we're gonna give ourselves a C plus here and we think, yeah, you might think it's a little bit harsh, we could argue for a B minus to the professor, but the misses on GCP and Alibaba we think warrant a a self penalty on this one. All right, let's move on to our prediction about Supercloud. We said it becomes a thing in 2022 and we think by many accounts it has, despite the naysayers, we're seeing clear evidence that the concept of a layer of value add that sits above and across clouds is taking shape. And on this slide we showed just some of the pickup in the industry. I mean one of the most interesting is CloudFlare, the biggest supercloud antagonist. >>Charles Fitzgerald even predicted that no vendor would ever use the term in their marketing. And that would be proof if that happened that Supercloud was a thing and he said it would never happen. Well CloudFlare has, and they launched their version of Supercloud at their developer week. Chris Miller of the register put out a Supercloud block diagram, something else that Charles Fitzgerald was, it was was pushing us for, which is rightly so, it was a good call on his part. And Chris Miller actually came up with one that's pretty good at David Linthicum also has produced a a a A block diagram, kind of similar, David uses the term metacloud and he uses the term supercloud kind of interchangeably to describe that trend. And so we we're aligned on that front. Brian Gracely has covered the concept on the popular cloud podcast. Berkeley launched the Sky computing initiative. >>You read through that white paper and many of the concepts highlighted in the Supercloud 3.0 community developed definition align with that. Walmart launched a platform with many of the supercloud salient attributes. So did Goldman Sachs, so did Capital One, so did nasdaq. So you know, sorry you can hate the term, but very clearly the evidence is gathering for the super cloud storm. We're gonna take an a plus on this one. Sorry, haters. Alright, let's talk about data mesh in our 21 predictions posts. We said that in the 2020s, 75% of large organizations are gonna re-architect their big data platforms. So kind of a decade long prediction. We don't like to do that always, but sometimes it's warranted. And because it was a longer term prediction, we, at the time in, in coming into 22 when we were evaluating our 21 predictions, we took a grade of incomplete because the sort of decade long or majority of the decade better part of the decade prediction. >>So last year, earlier this year, we said our number seven prediction was data mesh gains momentum in 22. But it's largely confined and narrow data problems with limited scope as you can see here with some of the key bullets. So there's a lot of discussion in the data community about data mesh and while there are an increasing number of examples, JP Morgan Chase, Intuit, H S P C, HelloFresh, and others that are completely rearchitecting parts of their data platform completely rearchitecting entire data platforms is non-trivial. There are organizational challenges, there're data, data ownership, debates, technical considerations, and in particular two of the four fundamental data mesh principles that the, the need for a self-service infrastructure and federated computational governance are challenging. Look, democratizing data and facilitating data sharing creates conflicts with regulatory requirements around data privacy. As such many organizations are being really selective with their data mesh implementations and hence our prediction of narrowing the scope of data mesh initiatives. >>I think that was right on J P M C is a good example of this, where you got a single group within a, within a division narrowly implementing the data mesh architecture. They're using a w s, they're using data lakes, they're using Amazon Glue, creating a catalog and a variety of other techniques to meet their objectives. They kind of automating data quality and it was pretty well thought out and interesting approach and I think it's gonna be made easier by some of the announcements that Amazon made at the recent, you know, reinvent, particularly trying to eliminate ET t l, better connections between Aurora and Redshift and, and, and better data sharing the data clean room. So a lot of that is gonna help. Of course, snowflake has been on this for a while now. Many other companies are facing, you know, limitations as we said here and this slide with their Hadoop data platforms. They need to do new, some new thinking around that to scale. HelloFresh is a really good example of this. Look, the bottom line is that organizations want to get more value from data and having a centralized, highly specialized teams that own the data problem, it's been a barrier and a blocker to success. The data mesh starts with organizational considerations as described in great detail by Ash Nair of Warner Brothers. So take a listen to this clip. >>Yeah, so when people think of Warner Brothers, you always think of like the movie studio, but we're more than that, right? I mean, you think of H B O, you think of t n t, you think of C N N. We have 30 plus brands in our portfolio and each have their own needs. So the, the idea of a data mesh really helps us because what we can do is we can federate access across the company so that, you know, CNN can work at their own pace. You know, when there's election season, they can ingest their own data and they don't have to, you know, bump up against, as an example, HBO if Game of Thrones is going on. >>So it's often the case that data mesh is in the eyes of the implementer. And while a company's implementation may not strictly adhere to Jamma Dani's vision of data mesh, and that's okay, the goal is to use data more effectively. And despite Gartner's attempts to deposition data mesh in favor of the somewhat confusing or frankly far more confusing data fabric concept that they stole from NetApp data mesh is taking hold in organizations globally today. So we're gonna take a B on this one. The prediction is shaping up the way we envision, but as we previously reported, it's gonna take some time. The better part of a decade in our view, new standards have to emerge to make this vision become reality and they'll come in the form of both open and de facto approaches. Okay, our eighth prediction last year focused on the face off between Snowflake and Databricks. >>And we realized this popular topic, and maybe one that's getting a little overplayed, but these are two companies that initially, you know, looked like they were shaping up as partners and they, by the way, they are still partnering in the field. But you go back a couple years ago, the idea of using an AW w s infrastructure, Databricks machine intelligence and applying that on top of Snowflake as a facile data warehouse, still very viable. But both of these companies, they have much larger ambitions. They got big total available markets to chase and large valuations that they have to justify. So what's happening is, as we've previously reported, each of these companies is moving toward the other firm's core domain and they're building out an ecosystem that'll be critical for their future. So as part of that effort, we said each is gonna become aggressive investors and maybe start doing some m and a and they have in various companies. >>And on this chart that we produced last year, we studied some of the companies that were targets and we've added some recent investments of both Snowflake and Databricks. As you can see, they've both, for example, invested in elation snowflake's, put money into Lacework, the Secur security firm, ThoughtSpot, which is trying to democratize data with ai. Collibra is a governance platform and you can see Databricks investments in data transformation with D B T labs, Matillion doing simplified business intelligence hunters. So that's, you know, they're security investment and so forth. So other than our thought that we'd see Databricks I p o last year, this prediction been pretty spot on. So we'll give ourselves an A on that one. Now observability has been a hot topic and we've been covering it for a while with our friends at E T R, particularly Eric Bradley. Our number nine prediction last year was basically that if you're not cloud native and observability, you are gonna be in big trouble. >>So everything guys gotta go cloud native. And that's clearly been the case. Splunk, the big player in the space has been transitioning to the cloud, hasn't always been pretty, as we reported, Datadog real momentum, the elk stack, that's open source model. You got new entrants that we've cited before, like observe, honeycomb, chaos search and others that we've, we've reported on, they're all born in the cloud. So we're gonna take another a on this one, admittedly, yeah, it's a re reasonably easy call, but you gotta have a few of those in the mix. Okay, our last prediction, our number 10 was around events. Something the cube knows a little bit about. We said that a new category of events would emerge as hybrid and that for the most part is happened. So that's gonna be the mainstay is what we said. That pure play virtual events are gonna give way to hi hybrid. >>And the narrative is that virtual only events are, you know, they're good for quick hits, but lousy replacements for in-person events. And you know that said, organizations of all shapes and sizes, they learn how to create better virtual content and support remote audiences during the pandemic. So when we set at pure play is gonna give way to hybrid, we said we, we i we implied or specific or specified that the physical event that v i p experience is going defined. That overall experience and those v i p events would create a little fomo, fear of, of missing out in a virtual component would overlay that serves an audience 10 x the size of the physical. We saw that really two really good examples. Red Hat Summit in Boston, small event, couple thousand people served tens of thousands, you know, online. Second was Google Cloud next v i p event in, in New York City. >>Everything else was, was, was, was virtual. You know, even examples of our prediction of metaverse like immersion have popped up and, and and, and you know, other companies are doing roadshow as we predicted like a lot of companies are doing it. You're seeing that as a major trend where organizations are going with their sales teams out into the regions and doing a little belly to belly action as opposed to the big giant event. That's a definitely a, a trend that we're seeing. So in reviewing this prediction, the grade we gave ourselves is, you know, maybe a bit unfair, it should be, you could argue for a higher grade, but the, but the organization still haven't figured it out. They have hybrid experiences but they generally do a really poor job of leveraging the afterglow and of event of an event. It still tends to be one and done, let's move on to the next event or the next city. >>Let the sales team pick up the pieces if they were paying attention. So because of that, we're only taking a B plus on this one. Okay, so that's the review of last year's predictions. You know, overall if you average out our grade on the 10 predictions that come out to a b plus, I dunno why we can't seem to get that elusive a, but we're gonna keep trying our friends at E T R and we are starting to look at the data for 2023 from the surveys and all the work that we've done on the cube and our, our analysis and we're gonna put together our predictions. We've had literally hundreds of inbounds from PR pros pitching us. We've got this huge thick folder that we've started to review with our yellow highlighter. And our plan is to review it this month, take a look at all the data, get some ideas from the inbounds and then the e t R of January surveys in the field. >>It's probably got a little over a thousand responses right now. You know, they'll get up to, you know, 1400 or so. And once we've digested all that, we're gonna go back and publish our predictions for 2023 sometime in January. So stay tuned for that. All right, we're gonna leave it there for today. You wanna thank Alex Myerson who's on production and he manages the podcast, Ken Schiffman as well out of our, our Boston studio. I gotta really heartfelt thank you to Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight and their team. They helped get the word out on social and in our newsletters. Rob Ho is our editor in chief over at Silicon Angle who does some great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these podcasts are available or all these episodes are available is podcasts. Wherever you listen, just all you do Search Breaking analysis podcast, really getting some great traction there. Appreciate you guys subscribing. I published each week on wikibon.com, silicon angle.com or you can email me directly at david dot valante silicon angle.com or dm me Dante, or you can comment on my LinkedIn post. And please check out ETR AI for the very best survey data in the enterprise tech business. Some awesome stuff in there. This is Dante for the Cube Insights powered by etr. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time on breaking analysis.

>> Narrator: "TheCUBE" presents Ignite 22. Brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >> Hey everyone. Welcome back to "TheCUBE's" live coverage of Palo Alto Network's Ignite 22 from the MGM Grand in beautiful Las Vegas. I am Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. Dave, we just had a great conversa- First of all, we got to hear the keynote, most of it. We also just had a great conversation with the CEO and chairman of Palo Alto Networks, Nikesh Arora. You know, this is a company that was founded back in 2005, he's been there four years, a lot has happened. A lot of growth, a lot of momentum in his tenure. You were saying in your breaking analysis, that they are on track to nearly double revenues from FY 20 to 23. Lots of momentum in this cloud security company. >> Yeah, I'd never met him before. I mean, I've been following a little bit. It's interesting, he came in as, sort of, a security outsider. You know, he joked today that he, the host, I forget the guy's name on the stage, what was his name? Hassan. Hassan, he said "He's the only guy in the room that knows less about security than I do." Because, normally, this is an industry that's steeped in deep expertise. He came in and I think is given a good compliment to the hardcore techies at Palo Alto Network. The company, it's really interesting. The company started out building their own data centers, they called it. Now they look back and call it cloud, but it was their own data centers, kind of like Salesforce did, it's kind of like ServiceNow. Because at the time, you really couldn't do it in the public cloud. The public cloud was a little too unknown. And so they needed that type of control. But Palo Alto's been amazing story since 2020, we wrote about this during the pandemic. So what they did, is they began to pivot to the the true cloud native public cloud, which is kind of immature still. They don't tell you that, but it's kind of still a little bit immature, but it's working. And when they were pivoting, it was around the same time, at Fortinet, who's a competitor there's like, I call 'em a poor man's Palo Alto, and Fortinet probably hates that, but it's kind of true. It's like a value play on a comprehensive platform, and you know Fortinet a little bit. And so, but what was happening is Fortinet was executing on its cloud strategy better than Palo Alto. And there was a real divergence in the valuations of these stocks. And we said at the time, we felt like Palo Alto, being the gold standard, would get through it. And they did. And what's happened is interesting, I wrote about this two weeks ago. If you go back to the pandemic, peak of the pandemic, or just before the peak, kind of in that tech bubble, if you will. Splunk's down 44% from that peak, Okta's down, sorry, not down 44%. 44% of the peak. Okta's 22% of their peak. CrowdStrike, 41%, Zscaler, 36%, Fortinet, 71%. Not so bad. Palo Altos maintained 93% of its peak value, right? So it's a combination of two things. One is, they didn't run up as much during the pandemic, and they're executing through their cloud strategy. And that's provided a sort of softer landing. And I think it's going to be interesting to see where they go from here. And you heard Nikesh, we're going to double, and then double again. So that's 7 billion, 14 billion, heading to 30 billion. >> Lisa: Yeah, yeah. He also talked about one of the things that he's done in his tenure here, as really a workforce transformation. And we talk all the time, it's not just technology and processes, it's people. They've also seemed to have done a pretty good job from a cultural transformation perspective, which is benefiting their customers. And they're also growing- The ecosystem, we talked a little bit about the ecosystem with Nikesh. We've got Google Cloud on, we've got AWS on the program today alone, talking about the partnerships. The ecosystem is expanding, as well. >> Have you ever met Nir Zuk? >> I have not, not yet. >> He's the founder and CTO. I haven't, we've never been on "theCUBE." He was supposed to come on one day down in New York City. Stu and I were going to interview him, and he cut out of the conference early, so we didn't interview him. But he's a very opinionated dude. And you're going to see, he's basically going to come on, and I mean, I hope he is as opinionated on "TheCUBE," but he'll talk about how the industry has screwed it up. And Nikesh sort of talked about that, it's a shiny new toy strategy. Oh, there's another one, here's another one. It's the best in that category. Okay, let's get, and that's how we've gotten to this point. I always use that Optive graphic, which shows the taxonomy, and shows hundreds and hundreds of suppliers in the industry. And again, it's true. Customers have 20, 30, sometimes 40 different tool sets. And so now it's going to be interesting to see. So I guess my point is, it starts at the top. The founder, he's an outspoken, smart, tough Israeli, who's like, "We're going to take this on." We're not afraid to be ambitious. And so, so to your point about people and the culture, it starts there. >> Absolutely. You know, one of the things that you've written about in your breaking analysis over the weekend, Nikesh talked about it, they want to be the consolidator. You see this as they're building out the security supercloud. Talk to me about that. What do you think? What is a security supercloud in your opinion? >> Yeah, so let me start with the consolidator. So Palo Alto obviously is executing on that strategy. CrowdStrike as well, wants to be a consolidator. I would say Zscaler wants to be a consolidator. I would say that Microsoft wants to be a consolidator, so does Cisco. So they're all coming at it from different angles. Cisco coming at it from network security, which is Palo Alto's wheelhouse, with their next gen firewalls, network security. What Palo Alto did was interesting, was they started out with kind of a hardware based firewall, but they didn't try to shove everything into it. They put the other function in there, their cloud. Zscaler. Zscaler is the one running around saying you don't need firewalls anymore. Just run everything through our cloud, our security cloud. I would think that as Zscaler expands its TAM, it's going to start to acquire, and do similar types of things. We'll see how that integrates. CrowdStrike is clearly executing on a similar portfolio strategy, but they're coming at it from endpoint, okay? They have to partner for network security. Cisco is this big and legacy, but they've done a really good job of acquiring and using services to hide some of that complexity. Microsoft is, you know, they probably hate me saying this, but it's the just good enough strategy. And that may have hurt CrowdStrike last quarter, because the SMB was a soft, we'll see. But to specifically answer your question, the opportunity, we think, is to build the security supercloud. What does that mean? That means to have a common security platform across all clouds. So irrespective of whether you're running an Amazon, whether you're running an on-prem, Google, or Azure, the security policies, and the edicts, and the way you secure your enterprise, look the same. There's a PaaS layer, super PaaS layer for developers, so that that the developers can secure their code in a common framework across cloud. So that essentially, Nikesh sort of balked at it, said, "No, no, no, we're not, we're not really building a super cloud." But essentially they kind of are headed in that direction, I think. Although, what I don't know, like CrowdStrike and Microsoft are big competitors. He mentioned AWS and Google. We run on AWS, Google, and in their own data centers. That sounds like they don't currently run a Microsoft. 'Cause Microsoft is much more competitive with the security ecosystem. They got Identity, so they compete with Okta. They got Endpoint, so they compete with CrowdStrike, and Palo Alto. So Microsoft's at war with everybody. So can you build a super cloud on top of the clouds, the hyperscalers, and not do Microsoft? I would say no. >> Right. >> But there's nothing stopping Palo Alto from running in the Microsoft cloud. I don't know if that's a strategy, we should ask them. >> Yeah. They've done a great job in our last few minutes, of really expanding their TAM in the last few years, particularly under Nikesh's leadership. What are some of the things that you heard this morning that you think, really they've done a great job of expanding that TAM. He talked a little bit about, I didn't write the number down, but he talked a little bit about the market opportunity there. What do you see them doing as being best of breed for organizations that have 30 to 50 tools and need to consolidate that? >> Well the market opportunity's enormous. >> Lisa: It is. >> I mean, we're talking about, well north of a hundred billion dollars, I mean 150, 180, depending on whose numerator you use. Gartner, IDC. Dave's, whatever, it's big. Okay, and they've got... Okay, they're headed towards 7 billion out of 180 billion, whatever, again, number you use. So they started with network security, they put most of the network function in the cloud. They moved to Endpoint, Sassy for the edge. They've done acquisitions, the Cortex acquisition, to really bring automated threat intelligence. They just bought Cider Security, which is sort of the shift left, code security, developer, assistance, if you will. That whole shift left, protect right. And so I think a lot of opportunities to continue to acquire best of breed. I liked what Nikesh said. Keep the founders on board, sell them on the mission. Let them help with that integration and putting forth the cultural aspects. And then, sort of, integrate in. So big opportunities, do they get into Endpoint and compete with Okta? I think Okta's probably the one sort of outlier. They want to be the consolidator of identity, right? And they'll probably partner with Okta, just like Okta partners with CrowdStrike. So I think that's part of the challenge of being the consolidator. You're probably not going to be the consolidator for everything, but maybe someday you'll see some kind of mega merger of these companies. CrowdStrike and Okta, or Palo Alto and Okta, or to take on Microsoft, which would be kind of cool to watch. >> That would be. We have a great lineup, Dave. Today and tomorrow, full days, two full days of cube coverage. You mentioned Nir Zuk, we already had the CEO on, founder and CTO. We've got the chief product officer coming on next. We've got chief transformation officer of customers, partners. We're going to have great conversations, and really understand how this organization is helping customers ultimately achieve their SecOps transformation, their digital transformation. And really moved the needle forward to becoming secure data companies. So I'm looking forward to the next two days. >> Yeah, and Wendy Whitmore is coming on. She heads Unit 42, which is, from what I could tell, it's pretty much the competitor to Mandiant, which Google just bought. We had Kevin Mandia on at September at the CrowdStrike event. So that's interesting. That's who I was poking Nikesh a little bit on industry collaboration. You're tight with Google, and then he had an interesting answer. He said "Hey, you start sharing data, you don't know where it's going to go." I think Snowflake could help with that problem, actually. >> Interesting. >> Yeah, little Snowflake and some of the announcements ar Reinvent with the data clean rooms. Data sharing, you know, trusted data. That's one of the other things we didn't talk about, is the real tension in between security and regulation. So the regulators in public policy saying you can't move the data out of the country. And you have to prove to me that you have a chain of custody. That when you say you deleted something, you have to show me that you not only deleted the file, then the data, but also the metadata. That's a really hard problem. So to my point, something that Palo Alto might be able to solve. >> It might be. It'll be an interesting conversation with Unit 42. And like we said, we have a great lineup of guests today and tomorrow with you, so stick around. Lisa Martin and Dave Vellante are covering Palo Alto Networks Ignite 22 for you. We look forward to seeing you in our next segment. Stick around. (light music)

>>Hello >>Everyone and welcome back to Dallas where we're live from, Super computing. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined with my co-host David, and we have a rocket of a show for you this afternoon. The doctors are in the house and we are joined by nasa, ladies and gentlemen. So excited. Please welcome Dr. Dan Duffy and Dr. Bill Putman. Thank you so much for being here, guys. I know this is kind of last minute. How's it to be on the show floor? What's it like being NASA here? >>What's exciting? We haven't, we haven't been here for three years, so this is actually really exciting to come back and see everybody, to see the showroom floor, see the innovations that have happened over the last three years. It's pretty exciting. >>Yeah, it's great. And, and so, because your jobs are so cool, and I don't wanna even remotely give even too little of the picture or, or not do it justice, could you give the audience a little bit of background on what you do as I think you have one of the coolest jobs ever. YouTube bill. >>I, I appreciate that. I, I, I run high Performance Computing Center at NASA Goddard for science. It's high performance information technology. So we do everything from networking to security, to high performance computing, to data sciences, artificial intelligence and machine learning is huge for us now. Yeah, large amounts of data, big data sets, but we also do scientific visualizations and then cloud and commercial cloud computing, as well as on premises cloud computing. And quite frankly, we support a lot of what Bill and his team does. >>Bill, why don't you tell us what your team >>Does? Yeah, so I'm a, I'm an earth scientist. I work as the associate chief at the global modeling assimilation office. And our job is to really, you know, maximize the use of all the observations that NASA takes from space and build that into a coherent, consistent physical system of the earth. Right? And we're focused on utilizing the HC that, that Dan and the folks at the nccs provide to us, to the best of our abilities to integrate those observations, you know, on time scales from hours, days to, to seasonal to to monthly time scales. That's, that's the essence of our focus at the GMA o >>Casual modeling, all of NASA's earth data. That, that in itself as a sentence is pretty wild. I imagine you're dealing with a ton of data. >>Oh, massive amounts of data. Yes, >>Probably, I mean, as much as one probably could, now that I'm thinking about it. I mean, and especially with how far things have to travel. Bill, sticking with you, just to open us up, what technology here excites you the most about the future and that will make your job easier? Let's put it that way. >>To me, it's the accelerator technologies, right? So there's the limited, the limiting factor for, for us as scientists is how fast we can get an answer. And if we can get our answer faster through accelerated technologies, you know, with the support of the, of the nccs and the computing centers, but also the software engineers enabling that for us, then we can do more, right. And push the questions even further, you know, so once we've gotten fast enough to do what we want to do, there's always something next that we wanna look for. So, >>I mean, at nasa you have to exercise such patience, whether that be data, coming back, images from a rover, doesn't matter what it is. Sometimes there's a lot of time, days, hours, years, depending on the situation. Right? I really, I really admire that. What about you, Dan? What's got you really excited about the future here? So >>Bill talked about the, the accelerated technology, which is absolutely true and, and, and is needed to get us not to only to the point where we have the compute resources to do the simulations that Bill wants to do, and also do it in a energy efficient way. But it's really the software frameworks that go around that and the software frameworks, the technology that dealing with how to use those in an energy efficient and and most efficient way is extremely important. And that's some of the, you know, that's what I'm really here to try to understand better about is how can I support these scientists with not just the hardware, but the software frameworks by which they can be successful. >>Yeah. We've, we've had a lot of kind of philosophical discussion about this, the difference between the quantitative increases in power in computing that we're seeing versus the question of whether or not we need truly qualitative changes moving forward. Where do you see the limits of, of, of, you know, if you, if you're looking at the ability to gather more data and process more data more quickly, what you can do with that data changes when you're getting updates every second versus every month seems pretty obvious. Is there a, is there, but is there, is there a near term target that you have specifically where once you reach that target, if you weren't thinking ahead of that target, you'd kind of be going, Okay, well we solved that problem, we're getting the data in so fast that you can, you can ask me, what is the temperature in this area? And you can go, Oh, well, huh, an hour ago the data said this. Beyond that, do you need a qualitative change in our ability to process information and tease insight into out of chaos? Or do you just need more quantity to be able to get to the point where you can do things like predict weather six months in advance? What are, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, >>It's an interesting question, right? And, and you ended it with predicting whether six months in advance, and actually I was thinking the other way, right? I was thinking going to finer and finer scales and shorter time scales when you talk about having data more frequently, right? So one of the things that I'm excited about as a modeler is going to hire resolution and representing smaller scale processes at nasa, we're, we're interested in observations that are global. So our models are global and we'd like to push those to as fine a resolution as possible to do things like severe storm predictions and so forth. So the faster we can get the data, the more data we can have, and that area would improve our ability to do that as well. So, >>And your background is in meteorology, right? >>Yes, I'm a meteorologist. >>Excellent. Okay. Yeah, yeah, >>Yeah. So, so I have to ask a question, and I'm sure all the audience cares about this. And I went through this when I was talking about the ghost satellites as well. What, what is it about weather that makes it so hard to predict? >>Oh, it's the classic chaos problem. The, the butterfly effects problem, and it's just true. You know, you always hear the story of a butterfly in Africa flaps, its rings and wings, and the weather changes in, in New York City, and it's just, computers are an excellent example of that, right? So we have a model of the earth, we can run it two times in a row and get the exact same answer, but if we flip a bit somewhere, then the answer changes 10 days later significantly. So it's a, it's a really interesting problem. So, >>Yeah. So do you have any issue with the fact that your colleague believes that butterflies are responsible for weather? No, I does that, does that, is it responsible for climate? Does that bother you at all? >>No, it doesn't. As a matter of fact, they actually run those butterfly like experi experiments within the systems where they do actually flip some bits and see what the uncertainties are that happen out 7, 8, 9 days out in advance to understand exactly what he's saying, to understand the uncertainties, but also the sensitivity with respect to the observations that they're taking. So >>Yeah, it's fascinating. It is. >>That is fascinating. Sticking with you for a second, Dan. So you're at the Center for Climate Simulation. Is that the center that's gonna help us navigate what happens over the next decade? >>Okay, so I, no one center is gonna help us navigate what's gonna happen over the next decade or the next 50 or a hundred years, right. It's gonna be everybody together. And I think NASA's role in that is really to pioneer the, the, the models that that bill and others are doing to understand what's gonna happen in not just the seasonal sub, but we also work with G, which is the God Institute for Space Studies. Yeah. Which does the decatal and, and the century long studies. Our, our job is to really help that research, understand what's happening with the client, but then feed that back into what observations we need to make next in order to better understand and better quantify the risks that we have to better quantify the mitigations that we can make to understand how and, and, and affect how the climate is gonna go for the future. So that's really what we trying to do. We're trying to do that research to understand the climate, understand what mitigations we can have, but also feedback into what observations we can make for the future. >>Yeah. And and what's the partnership ecosystem around that? You mentioned that it's gonna take all of us, I assume you work with a lot of >>Partners, Probably both of you. I mean, obviously the, the, the federal agencies work huge amounts together. Nasa, Noah is our huge partnerships. Sgs, a huge partnerships doe we've talked to doe several times this, so this, this this week already. So there's huge partnerships that go across the federal agency. We, we work also with Europeans as much as we can given the, the, the, you know, sort of the barriers of the countries and the financials. But we do collaborate as much as we can with, And the nice thing about NASA, I would say is the, all the observations that we take are public, they're paid for by the public. They're public, everybody can down them, anybody can down around the world. So that's also, and they're global measurements as Bill said, they're not just regional. >>Do you have, do you have specific, when you think about improving your ability to gain insights from data that that's being gathered? Yeah. Do you set out specific milestones that you're looking for? Like, you know, I hope by June of next year we will have achieved a place where we are able to accomplish X. Yeah. Do you, do you, Yeah. Bill, do you put, what, >>What milestones do we have here? So, yeah, I mean, do you have >>Yeah. Are, are you, are you sort of kept track of that way? Do you think of things like that? Like very specific things? Or is it just so fluid that as long as you're making progress towards the future, you feel okay? >>No, I would say we absolutely have milestones that we like to keep in track, especially from the modeling side of things, right? So whether it's observations that exist now that we want to use in our system, milestones to getting those observations integrated in, but also thinking even further ahead to the observations that we don't have yet. So we can use the models that we have today to simulate those kind of observations that we might want in the future that can help us do things that we can do right now. So those missions are, are aided by the work that we do at the GBO and, and the nccs, but, >>Okay, so if we, if we extrapolate really to the, to the what if future is really trying to understand the entire earth system as best as we can. So all the observations coming in, like you said, in in near real time, feeding that into an earth system model and to be able to predict short term, midterm or even long term predictions with, with some degree of certainty. And that may be things like climate change or it may be even more important, shorter term effects of, of severe weather. Yeah. Which is very important. And so we are trying to work towards that high resolution, immediate impact model that we can, that we can, you know, really share with the world and share those results as best, as best we can. >>Yeah. I, I have a quick, I have a quick follow up on that. I I bet we both did. >>So, so if you think about AI and ml, artificial intelligence and machine learning, something that, you know, people, people talk about a lot. Yeah. There's the concept of teaching a machine to go look for things, call it machine learning. A lot of it's machine teaching we're saying, you know, hit, you know, hit the rack on this side with a stick or the other side with the stick to get it to, to kind of go back and forth. Do you think that humans will be able to guide these systems moving forward enough to tease out the insights that we want? Or do you think we're gonna have to rely on what people think of as artificial intelligence to be able to go in with this massive amount of information with an almost infinite amount of variables and have the AI figure out that, you know what, it was the butterfly, It really was the butterfly. We all did models with it, but, but you understand the nuance that I'm saying. It's like we, we, we think we know what all the variables are and that it's chaotic because there's so many variables and there's so much data, but maybe there's something we're not taking into >>A account. Yeah, I I, I'm, I'm, I'm sure that's absolutely the case. And I'll, I'll start and let Bill, Bill jump in here. Yeah, there's a lot of nuances with a aiml. And so the, the, the, the real approach to get to where we want to be with this earth system model approach is a combination of both AI ML train models as best as we can and as unbiased way as we can. And there's a, there's a big conversation we have around that, but also with a physics or physical based model as well, Those two combined with the humans or the experts in the loop, we're not just gonna ask the artificial intelligence to predict anything and everything. The experts need to be in the loop to guide the training in as best as we, as, as we can in an unbiased, equitable way, but also interpret the results and not just give over to the ai. But that's the combination of that earth system model that we really wanna see. The future's a combination of AI l with physics based, >>But there's, there's a, there's an obvious place for a AI and ML in the modeling world that is in the parameterizations of the estimations that we have to do in our systems, right? So when we think about the earth system and modeling the earth system, there are many things like the equations of motions and thermodynamics that have fixed equations that we know how to solve on a computer. But there's a lot of things that happen physically in the atmosphere that we don't have equations for, and we have to estimate them. And machine learning through the use of high resolution models or observations in training the models to understand and, and represent that, yeah, that that's the place where it's really useful >>For us. There's so many factors, but >>We have to, but we have to make sure that we have the physics in that machine learning in those, in those training. So physics informed training isn't very important. So we're not just gonna go and let a model go off and do whatever it wants. It has to be constrained within physical constraints that the, that the experts know. >>Yeah. And with the wild amount of variables that affect our, our earth, quite frankly. Yeah, yeah. Which is geez. Which is insane. My god. So what's, what, what technology or what advancement needs to happen for your jobs to get easier, faster for our ability to predict to be even more successful than it is currently? >>You know, I think for me, the vision that I have for the future is that at some point, you know, all data is centrally located, essentially shared. We have our applications are then services that sit around all that data. I don't have to sit as a user and worry about, oh, is this all this data in place before I run my application? It's already there, it's already ready for me. My service is prepared and I just launch it out on that service. But that coupled with the performance that I need to get the result that I want in time. And I don't know when that's gonna happen, but at some point it might, you know, I don't know rooting for you, but that's, >>So there are, there are a lot of technologies we can talk about. What I'd like to mention is, is open science. So NASA is really trying to make a push and transformation towards open science. 2023 is gonna be the year of open science for nasa. And what does that mean? It means a lot of what Bill just said is that we have equity and fairness and accessibility and you can find the data, it's findability, it's fair data, you know, a fair findability accessibility reproducibility, and I forget what the eye stands for, but these are, these are tools and, and, and things that we need to, as, as a computing centers and including all the HC centers here, as well as the scientists need to support, to be as transparent as possible with the data sets and the, and the research that we're doing. And that's where I think is gonna be the best thing is if we can get this data out there that anybody can use in an equitable way and as transparent as possible, that's gonna eliminate, in my opinion, the bias over time because mistakes will be found and mistakes will be corrected over time. >>I love that. Yeah. The open source science end of this. No, it's great. And the more people that have access people I find in the academic world, especially people don't know what's going on in the private sector and vice versa. And so I love that you just brought that up. Closing question for you, because I suspect there might be some members of our audience who maybe have fantasized about working at nasa. You've both been working there for over a decade. Is it as cool as we all think of it? It is on the outside. >>I mean, it's, it's definitely pretty cool. >>You don't have to be modest about it, you know, >>I mean, just being at Goddard and being at the center where they build the James web web telescope and you can go to that clean room and see it, it's just fascinating. So it, it's really an amazing opportunity. >>Yeah. So NASA Goddard as a, as a center has, you know, information technologist, It has engineers, it has scientists, it has support staff, support team members. We have built more things, more instruments that have flown in this space than any other place in the world. The James Lab, we were part of that, part of a huge group of people that worked on James. We and James, we came through and was assembled in our, our, our clean room. It's one of the biggest clean rooms in, in, in the world. And we all took opportunities to go over and take selfies with this as they put those loveness mirrors on them. Yeah, it was awesome. It was amazing. And to see what the James we has done in such a short amount of time, the successes that they've gone through is just incredible. Now, I'm not a, I'm not a part of the James web team, but to be a, to be at the same center, to to listen to scientists like Bill talk about their work, to listen to scientists that, that talk about James, we, that's what's inspiring. And, and we get that all the time. >>And to have the opportunity to work with the astronauts that service the, the Hubble Telescope, you know, these things are, >>That's literally giving me goosebumps right now. I'm sitting over >>Here just, just an amazing opportunity. And woo. >>Well, Dan, Bill, thank you both so much for being on the show. I know it was a bit last minute, but I can guarantee we all got a lot out of it. David and I both, I know I speak for us in the whole cube audience, so thank you. We'll have you, anytime you wanna come talk science on the cube. Thank you all for tuning into our supercomputing footage here, live in Dallas. My name is Savannah Peterson. I feel cooler having sat next to these two gentlemen for the last 15 minutes and I hope you did too. We'll see you again soon.

(soft electronic music) >> Okay, we're back with Tim Yocum who is the Director of Engineering at InfluxData. Tim, welcome, good to see you. >> Good to see you, thanks for having me. >> You're really welcome. Listen, we've been covering opensource software on theCUBE for more than a decade and we've kind of watched the innovation from the big data ecosystem, the cloud is being built out on opensource, mobile, social platforms, key databases, and of course, InfluxDB. And InfluxData has been a big consumer and crontributor of opensource software. So my question to you is where have you seen the biggest bang for the buck from opensource software? >> So yeah, you know, Influx really, we thrive at the intersection of commercial services and opensource software, so OSS keeps us on the cutting edge. We benefit from OSS in delivering our own service from our core storage engine technologies to web services, templating engines. Our team stays lean and focused because we build on proven tools. We really build on the shoulders of giants. And like you've mentioned, even better, we contribute a lot back to the projects that we use, as well as our own product InfluxDB. >> But I got to ask you, Tim, because one of the challenge that we've seen, in particular, you saw this in the heyday of Hadoop, the innovations come so fast and furious, and as a software company, you got to place bets, you got to commit people, and sometimes those bets can be risky and not pay off. So how have you managed this challenge? >> Oh, it moves fast, yeah. That's a benefit, though, because the community moves so quickly that today's hot technology can be tomorrow's dinosaur. And what we tend to do is we fail fast and fail often; we try a lot of things. You know, you look at Kubernetes, for example. That ecosystem is driven by thousands of intelligent developers, engineers, builders. They're adding value every day, so we have to really keep up with that. And as the stack changes, we try different technologies, we try different methods. And at the end of the day, we come up with a better platform as a result of just the constant change in the environment. It is a challenge for us, but it's something that we just do every day. >> So we have a survey partner down in New York City called Enterprise Technology Research, ETR, and they do these quarterly surveys of about 1500 CIOs, IT practitioners, and they really have a good pulse on what's happening with spending. And the data shows that containers generally, but specifically Kubernetes, is one of the areas that is kind of, it's been off the charts and seen the most significant adoption and velocity particularly along with cloud, but really, Kubernetes is just, you know, still up and to the right consistently, even with the macro headwinds and all of the other stuff that we're sick of talking about. So what do you do with Kubernetes in the platform? >> Yeah, it's really central to our ability to run the product. When we first started out, we were just on AWS and the way we were running was a little bit like containers junior. Now we're running Kubernetes everywhere at AWS, Azure, Google cloud. It allows us to have a consistent experience across three different cloud providers and we can manage that in code. So our developers can focus on delivering services not trying to learn the intricacies of Amazon, Azure, and Google, and figure out how to deliver services on those three clouds with all of their differences. >> Just a followup on that, is it now, so I presume it sounds like there's a PaaS layer there to allow you guys to have a consistent experience across clouds and out to the edge, wherever. Is that correct? >> Yeah, so we've basically built more or less platform engineering is this the new, hot phrase. Kubernetes has made a lot of things easy for us because we've built a platform that our developers can lean on and they only have to learn one way of deploying their application, managing their application. And so that just gets all of the underlying infrastructure out of the way and lets them focus on delivering Influx cloud. >> And I know I'm taking a little bit of a tangent, but is that, I'll call it a PaaS layer, if I can use that term, are there specific attributes to InfluxDB or is it kind of just generally off-the-shelf PaaS? Is there any purpose built capability there that is value-add or is it pretty much generic? >> So we really build, we look at things with a build versus buy, through a build versus buy lens. Some things we want to leverage, cloud provider services, for instance, POSTGRES databases for metadata, perhaps. Get that off of our plate, let someone else run that. We're going to deploy a platform that our engineers can deliver on, that has consistency, that is all generated from code. that we can, as an SRE group, as an OPS team, that we can manage with very few people, really, and we can stamp out clusters across multiple regions in no time. >> So sometimes you build, sometimes you buy it. How do you make those decisions and what does that mean for the platform and for customers? >> Yeah, so what we're doing is, it's like everybody else will do. We're looking for trade-offs that make sense. We really want to protect our customers' data, so we look for services that support our own software with the most up-time reliability and durability we can get. Some things are just going to be easier to have a cloud provider take care of on our behalf. We make that transparent for our own team and of course, for our customers; you don't even see that. But we don't want to try to reinvent the wheel, like I had mentioned with SQL datasource for metadata, perhaps. Let's build on top of what of these three large cloud providers have already perfected and we can then focus on our platform engineering and we can help our developers then focus on the InfluxData software, the Influx cloud software. >> So take it to the customer level. What does it mean for them, what's the value that they're going to get out of all these innovations that we've been talking about today, and what can they expect in the future? >> So first of all, people who use the OSS product are really going to be at home on our cloud platform. You can run it on your desktop machine, on a single server, what have you, but then you want to scale up. We have some 270 terabytes of data across over four billion series keys that people have stored, so there's a proven ability to scale. Now in terms of the opensource software and how we've developed the platform, you're getting highly available, high cardinality time-series platform. We manage it and really, as I had mentioned earlier, we can keep up with the state of the art. We keep reinventing, we keep deploying things in realtime. We deploy to our platform every day, repeatedly, all the time. And it's that continuous deployment that allow us to continue testing things in flight, rolling things out that change, new features, better ways of doing deployments, safer ways of doing deployments. All of that happens behind the scenes and like we had mentioned earllier, Kubernetes, I mean, that allows us to get that done. We couldn't do it without having that platform as a base layer for us to then put our software on. So we iterate quickly. When you're on the Influx cloud platform, you really are able to take advantage of new features immediately. We roll things out every day and as those things go into production, you have the ability to use them. And so in the then, we want you to focus on getting actual insights from your data instead of running infrastructure, you know, let us do that for you. >> That makes sense. Are the innovations that we're talking about in the evolution of InfluxDB, do you see that as sort of a natural evolution for existing customers? Is it, I'm sure the answer is both, but is it opening up new territory for customers? Can you add some color to that? >> Yeah, it really is. It's a little bit of both. Any engineer will say, "Well it depends." So cloud-native technologies are really the hot thing, IoT, industrial IoT especially. People want to just shove tons of data out there and be able to do queries immediately and they don't want to manage infrastructure. What we've started to see are people that use the cloud service as their datastore backbone and then they use edge computing with our OSS product to ingest data from say, multiple production lines, and down-sample that data, send the rest of that data off to Influx cloud where the heavy processing takes place. So really, us being in all the different clouds and iterating on that, and being in all sorts of different regions, allows for people to really get out of the business of trying to manage that big data, have us take care of that. And, of course, as we change the platform, endusers benefit from that immediately. >> And so obviously you've taken away a lot of the heavy lifting for the infrastructure. Would you say the same things about security, especially as you go out to IoT at the edge? How should we be thinking about the value that you bring from a security perspective? >> We take security super seriously. It's built into our DNA. We do a lot of work to ensure that our platform is secure, that the data that we store is kept private. It's, of course, always a concern, you see in the news all the time, companies being compromised. That's something that you can have an entire team working on which we do, to make sure that the data that you have, whether it's in transit, whether it's at rest is always kept secure, is only viewable by you. You look at things like software bill of materials, if you're running this yourself, you have to go vet all sorts of different pieces of software and we do that, you know, as we use new tools. That's something, that's just part of our jobs to make sure that the platform that we're running has fully vetted software. And you know, with opensource especially, that's a lot of work, and so it's definitely new territory. Supply chain attacks are definitely happening at a higher clip that they used to but that is really just part of a day in the life for folks like us that are building platforms. >> And that's key, especially when you start getting into the, you know, that we talk about IoT and the operations technologies, the engineers running that infrastrucutre. You know, historically, as you know, Tim, they would air gap everything; that's how they kept it safe. But that's not feasible anymore. Everything's-- >> Can't do that. >> connected now, right? And so you've got to have a partner that is, again, take away that heavy lifting to R&D so you can focus on some of the other activities. All right, give us the last word and the key takeaways from your perspective. >> Well, you know, from my perspective, I see it as a two-lane approach, with Influx, with any time-series data. You've got a lot of stuff that you're going to run on-prem. What you had mentioned, air gapping? Sure, there's plenty of need for that. But at the end of the day, people that don't want to run big datacenters, people that want to entrust their data to a company that's got a full platform set up for them that they can build on, send that data over to the cloud. The cloud is not going away. I think a more hybrid approach is where the future lives and that's what we're prepared for. >> Tim, really appreciate you coming to the program. Great stuff, good to see you. >> Thanks very much, appreciate it. >> Okay in a moment, I'll be back to wrap up today's session. You're watching theCUBE. (soft electronic music)

>>This past May, The Cube in collaboration with Influx data shared with you the latest innovations in Time series databases. We talked at length about why a purpose built time series database for many use cases, was a superior alternative to general purpose databases trying to do the same thing. Now, you may, you may remember the time series data is any data that's stamped in time, and if it's stamped, it can be analyzed historically. And when we introduced the concept to the community, we talked about how in theory, those time slices could be taken, you know, every hour, every minute, every second, you know, down to the millisecond and how the world was moving toward realtime or near realtime data analysis to support physical infrastructure like sensors and other devices and IOT equipment. A time series databases have had to evolve to efficiently support realtime data in emerging use cases in iot T and other use cases. >>And to do that, new architectural innovations have to be brought to bear. As is often the case, open source software is the linchpin to those innovations. Hello and welcome to Evolving Influx DB into the smart Data platform, made possible by influx data and produced by the Cube. My name is Dave Valante and I'll be your host today. Now in this program we're going to dig pretty deep into what's happening with Time series data generally, and specifically how Influx DB is evolving to support new workloads and demands and data, and specifically around data analytics use cases in real time. Now, first we're gonna hear from Brian Gilmore, who is the director of IOT and emerging technologies at Influx Data. And we're gonna talk about the continued evolution of Influx DB and the new capabilities enabled by open source generally and specific tools. And in this program you're gonna hear a lot about things like Rust, implementation of Apache Arrow, the use of par k and tooling such as data fusion, which powering a new engine for Influx db. >>Now, these innovations, they evolve the idea of time series analysis by dramatically increasing the granularity of time series data by compressing the historical time slices, if you will, from, for example, minutes down to milliseconds. And at the same time, enabling real time analytics with an architecture that can process data much faster and much more efficiently. Now, after Brian, we're gonna hear from Anna East Dos Georgio, who is a developer advocate at In Flux Data. And we're gonna get into the why of these open source capabilities and how they contribute to the evolution of the Influx DB platform. And then we're gonna close the program with Tim Yokum, he's the director of engineering at Influx Data, and he's gonna explain how the Influx DB community actually evolved the data engine in mid-flight and which decisions went into the innovations that are coming to the market. Thank you for being here. We hope you enjoy the program. Let's get started. Okay, we're kicking things off with Brian Gilmore. He's the director of i t and emerging Technology at Influx State of Bryan. Welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks Dave. Great to be here. I appreciate the time. >>Hey, explain why Influx db, you know, needs a new engine. Was there something wrong with the current engine? What's going on there? >>No, no, not at all. I mean, I think it's, for us, it's been about staying ahead of the market. I think, you know, if we think about what our customers are coming to us sort of with now, you know, related to requests like sql, you know, query support, things like that, we have to figure out a way to, to execute those for them in a way that will scale long term. And then we also, we wanna make sure we're innovating, we're sort of staying ahead of the market as well and sort of anticipating those future needs. So, you know, this is really a, a transparent change for our customers. I mean, I think we'll be adding new capabilities over time that sort of leverage this new engine, but you know, initially the customers who are using us are gonna see just great improvements in performance, you know, especially those that are working at the top end of the, of the workload scale, you know, the massive data volumes and things like that. >>Yeah, and we're gonna get into that today and the architecture and the like, but what was the catalyst for the enhancements? I mean, when and how did this all come about? >>Well, I mean, like three years ago we were primarily on premises, right? I mean, I think we had our open source, we had an enterprise product, you know, and, and sort of shifting that technology, especially the open source code base to a service basis where we were hosting it through, you know, multiple cloud providers. That was, that was, that was a long journey I guess, you know, phase one was, you know, we wanted to host enterprise for our customers, so we sort of created a service that we just managed and ran our enterprise product for them. You know, phase two of this cloud effort was to, to optimize for like multi-tenant, multi-cloud, be able to, to host it in a truly like sass manner where we could use, you know, some type of customer activity or consumption as the, the pricing vector, you know, And, and that was sort of the birth of the, of the real first influx DB cloud, you know, which has been really successful. >>We've seen, I think like 60,000 people sign up and we've got tons and tons of, of both enterprises as well as like new companies, developers, and of course a lot of home hobbyists and enthusiasts who are using out on a, on a daily basis, you know, and having that sort of big pool of, of very diverse and very customers to chat with as they're using the product, as they're giving us feedback, et cetera, has has, you know, pointed us in a really good direction in terms of making sure we're continuously improving that and then also making these big leaps as we're doing with this, with this new engine. >>Right. So you've called it a transparent change for customers, so I'm presuming it's non-disruptive, but I really wanna understand how much of a pivot this is and what, what does it take to make that shift from, you know, time series, you know, specialist to real time analytics and being able to support both? >>Yeah, I mean, it's much more of an evolution, I think, than like a shift or a pivot. You know, time series data is always gonna be fundamental and sort of the basis of the solutions that we offer our customers, and then also the ones that they're building on the sort of raw APIs of our platform themselves. You know, the time series market is one that we've worked diligently to lead. I mean, I think when it comes to like metrics, especially like sensor data and app and infrastructure metrics, if we're being honest though, I think our, our user base is well aware that the way we were architected was much more towards those sort of like backwards looking historical type analytics, which are key for troubleshooting and making sure you don't, you know, run into the same problem twice. But, you know, we had to ask ourselves like, what can we do to like better handle those queries from a performance and a, and a, you know, a time to response on the queries, and can we get that to the point where the results sets are coming back so quickly from the time of query that we can like limit that window down to minutes and then seconds. >>And now with this new engine, we're really starting to talk about a query window that could be like returning results in, in, you know, milliseconds of time since it hit the, the, the ingest queue. And that's, that's really getting to the point where as your data is available, you can use it and you can query it, you can visualize it, and you can do all those sort of magical things with it, you know? And I think getting all of that to a place where we're saying like, yes to the customer on, you know, all of the, the real time queries, the, the multiple language query support, but, you know, it was hard, but we're now at a spot where we can start introducing that to, you know, a a limited number of customers, strategic customers and strategic availability zones to start. But you know, everybody over time. >>So you're basically going from what happened to in, you can still do that obviously, but to what's happening now in the moment? >>Yeah, yeah. I mean if you think about time, it's always sort of past, right? I mean, like in the moment right now, whether you're talking about like a millisecond ago or a minute ago, you know, that's, that's pretty much right now, I think for most people, especially in these use cases where you have other sort of components of latency induced by the, by the underlying data collection, the architecture, the infrastructure, the, you know, the, the devices and you know, the sort of highly distributed nature of all of this. So yeah, I mean, getting, getting a customer or a user to be able to use the data as soon as it is available is what we're after here. >>I always thought, you know, real, I always thought of real time as before you lose the customer, but now in this context, maybe it's before the machine blows up. >>Yeah, it's, it's, I mean it is operationally or operational real time is different, you know, and that's one of the things that really triggered us to know that we were, we were heading in the right direction, is just how many sort of operational customers we have. You know, everything from like aerospace and defense. We've got companies monitoring satellites, we've got tons of industrial users, users using us as a processes storing on the plant floor, you know, and, and if we can satisfy their sort of demands for like real time historical perspective, that's awesome. I think what we're gonna do here is we're gonna start to like edge into the real time that they're used to in terms of, you know, the millisecond response times that they expect of their control systems, certainly not their, their historians and databases. >>I, is this available, these innovations to influx DB cloud customers only who can access this capability? >>Yeah. I mean commercially and today, yes. You know, I think we want to emphasize that's a, for now our goal is to get our latest and greatest and our best to everybody over time. Of course. You know, one of the things we had to do here was like we double down on sort of our, our commitment to open source and availability. So like anybody today can take a look at the, the libraries in on our GitHub and, you know, can ex inspect it and even can try to, you know, implement or execute some of it themselves in their own infrastructure. You know, we are, we're committed to bringing our sort of latest and greatest to our cloud customers first for a couple of reasons. Number one, you know, there are big workloads and they have high expectations of us. I think number two, it also gives us the opportunity to monitor a little bit more closely how it's working, how they're using it, like how the system itself is performing. >>And so just, you know, being careful, maybe a little cautious in terms of, of, of how big we go with this right away, just sort of both limits, you know, the risk of, of, you know, any issues that can come with new software rollouts. We haven't seen anything so far, but also it does give us the opportunity to have like meaningful conversations with a small group of users who are using the products, but once we get through that and they give us two thumbs up on it, it'll be like, open the gates and let everybody in. It's gonna be exciting time for the whole ecosystem. >>Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And you can do some experimentation and, you know, using the cloud resources. Let's dig into some of the architectural and technical innovations that are gonna help deliver on this vision. What, what should we know there? >>Well, I mean, I think foundationally we built the, the new core on Rust. You know, this is a new very sort of popular systems language, you know, it's extremely efficient, but it's also built for speed and memory safety, which goes back to that us being able to like deliver it in a way that is, you know, something we can inspect very closely, but then also rely on the fact that it's going to behave well. And if it does find error conditions, I mean we, we've loved working with Go and, you know, a lot of our libraries will continue to, to be sort of implemented in Go, but you know, when it came to this particular new engine, you know, that power performance and stability rust was critical. On top of that, like, we've also integrated Apache Arrow and Apache Parque for persistence. I think for anybody who's really familiar with the nuts and bolts of our backend and our TSI and our, our time series merged Trees, this is a big break from that, you know, arrow on the sort of in MI side and then Par K in the on disk side. >>It, it allows us to, to present, you know, a unified set of APIs for those really fast real time inquiries that we talked about, as well as for very large, you know, historical sort of bulk data archives in that PARQUE format, which is also cool because there's an entire ecosystem sort of popping up around Parque in terms of the machine learning community, you know, and getting that all to work, we had to glue it together with aero flight. That's sort of what we're using as our, our RPC component. You know, it handles the orchestration and the, the transportation of the Coer data. Now we're moving to like a true Coer database model for this, this version of the engine, you know, and it removes a lot of overhead for us in terms of having to manage all that serialization, the deserialization, and, you know, to that again, like blurring that line between real time and historical data. It's, you know, it's, it's highly optimized for both streaming micro batch and then batches, but true streaming as well. >>Yeah. Again, I mean, it's funny you mentioned Rust. It is, it's been around for a long time, but it's popularity is, is you know, really starting to hit that steep part of the S-curve. And, and we're gonna dig into to more of that, but give us any, is there anything else that we should know about Bryan? Give us the last word? >>Well, I mean, I think first I'd like everybody sort of watching just to like take a look at what we're offering in terms of early access in beta programs. I mean, if, if, if you wanna participate or if you wanna work sort of in terms of early access with the, with the new engine, please reach out to the team. I'm sure you know, there's a lot of communications going out and you know, it'll be highly featured on our, our website, you know, but reach out to the team, believe it or not, like we have a lot more going on than just the new engine. And so there are also other programs, things we're, we're offering to customers in terms of the user interface, data collection and things like that. And, you know, if you're a customer of ours and you have a sales team, a commercial team that you work with, you can reach out to them and see what you can get access to because we can flip a lot of stuff on, especially in cloud through feature flags. >>But if there's something new that you wanna try out, we'd just love to hear from you. And then, you know, our goal would be that as we give you access to all of these new cool features that, you know, you would give us continuous feedback on these products and services, not only like what you need today, but then what you'll need tomorrow to, to sort of build the next versions of your business. Because you know, the whole database, the ecosystem as it expands out into to, you know, this vertically oriented stack of cloud services and enterprise databases and edge databases, you know, it's gonna be what we all make it together, not just, you know, those of us who were employed by Influx db. And then finally I would just say please, like watch in ICE in Tim's sessions, like these are two of our best and brightest, They're totally brilliant, completely pragmatic, and they are most of all customer obsessed, which is amazing. And there's no better takes, like honestly on the, the sort of technical details of this, then there's, especially when it comes to like the value that these investments will, will bring to our customers and our communities. So encourage you to, to, you know, pay more attention to them than you did to me, for sure. >>Brian Gilmore, great stuff. Really appreciate your time. Thank you. >>Yeah, thanks Dave. It was awesome. Look forward to it. >>Yeah, me too. Looking forward to see how the, the community actually applies these new innovations and goes, goes beyond just the historical into the real time really hot area. As Brian said in a moment, I'll be right back with Anna East dos Georgio to dig into the critical aspects of key open source components of the Influx DB engine, including Rust, Arrow, Parque, data fusion. Keep it right there. You don't wanna miss this >>Time series Data is everywhere. The number of sensors, systems and applications generating time series data increases every day. All these data sources producing so much data can cause analysis paralysis. Influx DB is an entire platform designed with everything you need to quickly build applications that generate value from time series data influx. DB Cloud is a serverless solution, which means you don't need to buy or manage your own servers. There's no need to worry about provisioning because you only pay for what you use. Influx DB Cloud is fully managed so you get the newest features and enhancements as they're added to the platform's code base. It also means you can spend time building solutions and delivering value to your users instead of wasting time and effort managing something else. Influx TVB Cloud offers a range of security features to protect your data, multiple layers of redundancy ensure you don't lose any data access controls ensure that only the people who should see your data can see it. >>And encryption protects your data at rest and in transit between any of our regions or cloud providers. InfluxDB uses a single API across the entire platform suite so you can build on open source, deploy to the cloud and then then easily query data in the cloud at the edge or on prem using the same scripts. And InfluxDB is schemaless automatically adjusting to changes in the shape of your data without requiring changes in your application. Logic. InfluxDB Cloud is production ready from day one. All it needs is your data and your imagination. Get started today@influxdata.com slash cloud. >>Okay, we're back. I'm Dave Valante with a Cube and you're watching evolving Influx DB into the smart data platform made possible by influx data. Anna ETOs Georgio is here, she's a developer advocate for influx data and we're gonna dig into the rationale and value contribution behind several open source technologies that Influx DB is leveraging to increase the granularity of time series analysis analysis and bring the world of data into real-time analytics and is welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. >>Hi, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. >>Oh, you're very welcome. Okay, so IX is being touted as this next gen open source core for Influx db. And my understanding is that it leverages in memory of course for speed. It's a kilo store, so it gives you a compression efficiency, it's gonna give you faster query speeds, you store files and object storage, so you got very cost effective approach. Are these the salient points on the platform? I know there are probably dozens of other features, but what are the high level value points that people should understand? >>Sure, that's a great question. So some of the main requirements that IOx is trying to achieve and some of the most impressive ones to me, the first one is that it aims to have no limits on cardinality and also allow you to write any kind of event data that you want, whether that's live tag or a field. It also wants to deliver the best in class performance on analytics queries. In addition to our already well served metrics queries, we also wanna have operator control over memory usage. So you should be able to define how much memory is used for buffering caching and query processing. Some other really important parts is the ability to have bulk data export and import super useful. Also broader ecosystem compatibility where possible we aim to use and embrace emerging standards in the data analytics ecosystem and have compatibility with things like sql, Python, and maybe even pandas in the future. >>Okay, so lot there. Now we talked to Brian about how you're using Rust and which is not a new programming language and of course we had some drama around Rust during the pandemic with the Mozilla layoffs, but the formation of the Rust Foundation really addressed any of those concerns. You got big guns like Amazon and Google and Microsoft throwing their collective weights behind it. It's really, the adoption is really starting to get steep on the S-curve. So lots of platforms, lots of adoption with rust, but why rust as an alternative to say c plus plus for example? >>Sure, that's a great question. So Russ was chosen because of his exceptional performance and reliability. So while Russ is synt tactically similar to c plus plus and it has similar performance, it also compiles to a native code like c plus plus. But unlike c plus plus, it also has much better memory safety. So memory safety is protection against bugs or security vulnerabilities that lead to excessive memory usage or memory leaks. And rust achieves this memory safety due to its like innovative type system. Additionally, it doesn't allow for dangling pointers. And dangling pointers are the main classes of errors that lead to exploitable security vulnerabilities in languages like c plus plus. So Russ like helps meet that requirement of having no limits on ality, for example, because it's, we're also using the Russ implementation of Apache Arrow and this control over memory and also Russ Russ's packaging system called crates IO offers everything that you need out of the box to have features like AY and a weight to fix race conditions, to protection against buffering overflows and to ensure thread safe async cashing structures as well. So essentially it's just like has all the control, all the fine grain control, you need to take advantage of memory and all your resources as well as possible so that you can handle those really, really high ity use cases. >>Yeah, and the more I learn about the, the new engine and, and the platform IOCs et cetera, you know, you, you see things like, you know, the old days not even to even today you do a lot of garbage collection in these, in these systems and there's an inverse, you know, impact relative to performance. So it looks like you really, you know, the community is modernizing the platform, but I wanna talk about Apache Arrow for a moment. It it's designed to address the constraints that are associated with analyzing large data sets. We, we know that, but please explain why, what, what is Arrow and and what does it bring to Influx db? >>Sure, yeah. So Arrow is a, a framework for defining in memory calmer data. And so much of the efficiency and performance of IOx comes from taking advantage of calmer data structures. And I will, if you don't mind, take a moment to kind of of illustrate why column or data structures are so valuable. Let's pretend that we are gathering field data about the temperature in our room and also maybe the temperature of our stove. And in our table we have those two temperature values as well as maybe a measurement value, timestamp value, maybe some other tag values that describe what room and what house, et cetera we're getting this data from. And so you can picture this table where we have like two rows with the two temperature values for both our room and the stove. Well usually our room temperature is regulated so those values don't change very often. >>So when you have calm oriented st calm oriented storage, essentially you take each row, each column and group it together. And so if that's the case and you're just taking temperature values from the room and a lot of those temperature values are the same, then you'll, you might be able to imagine how equal values will then enable each other and when they neighbor each other in the storage format, this provides a really perfect opportunity for cheap compression. And then this cheap compression enables high cardinality use cases. It also enables for faster scan rates. So if you wanna define like the men and max value of the temperature in the room across a thousand different points, you only have to get those a thousand different points in order to answer that question and you have those immediately available to you. But let's contrast this with a row oriented storage solution instead so that we can understand better the benefits of calmer oriented storage. >>So if you had a row oriented storage, you'd first have to look at every field like the temperature in, in the room and the temperature of the stove. You'd have to go across every tag value that maybe describes where the room is located or what model the stove is. And every timestamp you'd then have to pluck out that one temperature value that you want at that one time stamp and do that for every single row. So you're scanning across a ton more data and that's why Rowe Oriented doesn't provide the same efficiency as calmer and Apache Arrow is in memory calmer data, commoner data fit framework. So that's where a lot of the advantages come >>From. Okay. So you basically described like a traditional database, a row approach, but I've seen like a lot of traditional database say, okay, now we've got, we can handle colo format versus what you're talking about is really, you know, kind of native i, is it not as effective? Is the, is the foreman not as effective because it's largely a, a bolt on? Can you, can you like elucidate on that front? >>Yeah, it's, it's not as effective because you have more expensive compression and because you can't scan across the values as quickly. And so those are, that's pretty much the main reasons why, why RO row oriented storage isn't as efficient as calm, calmer oriented storage. Yeah. >>Got it. So let's talk about Arrow Data Fusion. What is data fusion? I know it's written in Rust, but what does it bring to the table here? >>Sure. So it's an extensible query execution framework and it uses Arrow as it's in memory format. So the way that it helps in influx DB IOCs is that okay, it's great if you can write unlimited amount of cardinality into influx Cbis, but if you don't have a query engine that can successfully query that data, then I don't know how much value it is for you. So Data fusion helps enable the, the query process and transformation of that data. It also has a PANDAS API so that you could take advantage of PANDAS data frames as well and all of the machine learning tools associated with Pandas. >>Okay. You're also leveraging Par K in the platform cause we heard a lot about Par K in the middle of the last decade cuz as a storage format to improve on Hadoop column stores. What are you doing with Parque and why is it important? >>Sure. So parque is the column oriented durable file format. So it's important because it'll enable bulk import, bulk export, it has compatibility with Python and Pandas, so it supports a broader ecosystem. Par K files also take very little disc disc space and they're faster to scan because again, they're column oriented in particular, I think PAR K files are like 16 times cheaper than CSV files, just as kind of a point of reference. And so that's essentially a lot of the, the benefits of par k. >>Got it. Very popular. So and he's, what exactly is influx data focusing on as a committer to these projects? What is your focus? What's the value that you're bringing to the community? >>Sure. So Influx DB first has contributed a lot of different, different things to the Apache ecosystem. For example, they contribute an implementation of Apache Arrow and go and that will support clearing with flux. Also, there has been a quite a few contributions to data fusion for things like memory optimization and supportive additional SQL features like support for timestamp, arithmetic and support for exist clauses and support for memory control. So yeah, Influx has contributed a a lot to the Apache ecosystem and continues to do so. And I think kind of the idea here is that if you can improve these upstream projects and then the long term strategy here is that the more you contribute and build those up, then the more you will perpetuate that cycle of improvement and the more we will invest in our own project as well. So it's just that kind of symbiotic relationship and appreciation of the open source community. >>Yeah. Got it. You got that virtuous cycle going, the people call the flywheel. Give us your last thoughts and kind of summarize, you know, where what, what the big takeaways are from your perspective. >>So I think the big takeaway is that influx data is doing a lot of really exciting things with Influx DB IOx and I really encourage, if you are interested in learning more about the technologies that Influx is leveraging to produce IOCs, the challenges associated with it and all of the hard work questions and you just wanna learn more, then I would encourage you to go to the monthly Tech talks and community office hours and they are on every second Wednesday of the month at 8:30 AM Pacific time. There's also a community forums and a community Slack channel look for the influx DDB unders IAC channel specifically to learn more about how to join those office hours and those monthly tech tech talks as well as ask any questions they have about iacs, what to expect and what you'd like to learn more about. I as a developer advocate, I wanna answer your questions. So if there's a particular technology or stack that you wanna dive deeper into and want more explanation about how INFLUX DB leverages it to build IOCs, I will be really excited to produce content on that topic for you. >>Yeah, that's awesome. You guys have a really rich community, collaborate with your peers, solve problems, and, and you guys super responsive, so really appreciate that. All right, thank you so much Anise for explaining all this open source stuff to the audience and why it's important to the future of data. >>Thank you. I really appreciate it. >>All right, you're very welcome. Okay, stay right there and in a moment I'll be back with Tim Yoakum, he's the director of engineering for Influx Data and we're gonna talk about how you update a SAS engine while the plane is flying at 30,000 feet. You don't wanna miss this. >>I'm really glad that we went with InfluxDB Cloud for our hosting because it has saved us a ton of time. It's helped us move faster, it's saved us money. And also InfluxDB has good support. My name's Alex Nada. I am CTO at Noble nine. Noble Nine is a platform to measure and manage service level objectives, which is a great way of measuring the reliability of your systems. You can essentially think of an slo, the product we're providing to our customers as a bunch of time series. So we need a way to store that data and the corresponding time series that are related to those. The main reason that we settled on InfluxDB as we were shopping around is that InfluxDB has a very flexible query language and as a general purpose time series database, it basically had the set of features we were looking for. >>As our platform has grown, we found InfluxDB Cloud to be a really scalable solution. We can quickly iterate on new features and functionality because Influx Cloud is entirely managed, it probably saved us at least a full additional person on our team. We also have the option of running InfluxDB Enterprise, which gives us the ability to even host off the cloud or in a private cloud if that's preferred by a customer. Influx data has been really flexible in adapting to the hosting requirements that we have. They listened to the challenges we were facing and they helped us solve it. As we've continued to grow, I'm really happy we have influx data by our side. >>Okay, we're back with Tim Yokum, who is the director of engineering at Influx Data. Tim, welcome. Good to see you. >>Good to see you. Thanks for having me. >>You're really welcome. Listen, we've been covering open source software in the cube for more than a decade, and we've kind of watched the innovation from the big data ecosystem. The cloud has been being built out on open source, mobile, social platforms, key databases, and of course influx DB and influx data has been a big consumer and contributor of open source software. So my question to you is, where have you seen the biggest bang for the buck from open source software? >>So yeah, you know, influx really, we thrive at the intersection of commercial services and open, so open source software. So OSS keeps us on the cutting edge. We benefit from OSS in delivering our own service from our core storage engine technologies to web services temping engines. Our, our team stays lean and focused because we build on proven tools. We really build on the shoulders of giants and like you've mentioned, even better, we contribute a lot back to the projects that we use as well as our own product influx db. >>You know, but I gotta ask you, Tim, because one of the challenge that that we've seen in particular, you saw this in the heyday of Hadoop, the, the innovations come so fast and furious and as a software company you gotta place bets, you gotta, you know, commit people and sometimes those bets can be risky and not pay off well, how have you managed this challenge? >>Oh, it moves fast. Yeah, that, that's a benefit though because it, the community moves so quickly that today's hot technology can be tomorrow's dinosaur. And what we, what we tend to do is, is we fail fast and fail often. We try a lot of things. You know, you look at Kubernetes for example, that ecosystem is driven by thousands of intelligent developers, engineers, builders, they're adding value every day. So we have to really keep up with that. And as the stack changes, we, we try different technologies, we try different methods, and at the end of the day, we come up with a better platform as a result of just the constant change in the environment. It is a challenge for us, but it's, it's something that we just do every day. >>So we have a survey partner down in New York City called Enterprise Technology Research etr, and they do these quarterly surveys of about 1500 CIOs, IT practitioners, and they really have a good pulse on what's happening with spending. And the data shows that containers generally, but specifically Kubernetes is one of the areas that has kind of, it's been off the charts and seen the most significant adoption and velocity particularly, you know, along with cloud. But, but really Kubernetes is just, you know, still up until the right consistently even with, you know, the macro headwinds and all, all of the stuff that we're sick of talking about. But, so what are you doing with Kubernetes in the platform? >>Yeah, it, it's really central to our ability to run the product. When we first started out, we were just on AWS and, and the way we were running was, was a little bit like containers junior. Now we're running Kubernetes everywhere at aws, Azure, Google Cloud. It allows us to have a consistent experience across three different cloud providers and we can manage that in code so our developers can focus on delivering services, not trying to learn the intricacies of Amazon, Azure, and Google and figure out how to deliver services on those three clouds with all of their differences. >>Just to follow up on that, is it, no. So I presume it's sounds like there's a PAs layer there to allow you guys to have a consistent experience across clouds and out to the edge, you know, wherever is that, is that correct? >>Yeah, so we've basically built more or less platform engineering, This is the new hot phrase, you know, it, it's, Kubernetes has made a lot of things easy for us because we've built a platform that our developers can lean on and they only have to learn one way of deploying their application, managing their application. And so that, that just gets all of the underlying infrastructure out of the way and, and lets them focus on delivering influx cloud. >>Yeah, and I know I'm taking a little bit of a tangent, but is that, that, I'll call it a PAs layer if I can use that term. Is that, are there specific attributes to Influx db or is it kind of just generally off the shelf paths? You know, are there, is, is there any purpose built capability there that, that is, is value add or is it pretty much generic? >>So we really build, we, we look at things through, with a build versus buy through a, a build versus by lens. Some things we want to leverage cloud provider services, for instance, Postgres databases for metadata, perhaps we'll get that off of our plate, let someone else run that. We're going to deploy a platform that our engineers can, can deliver on that has consistency that is, is all generated from code that we can as a, as an SRE group, as an ops team, that we can manage with very few people really, and we can stamp out clusters across multiple regions and in no time. >>So how, so sometimes you build, sometimes you buy it. How do you make those decisions and and what does that mean for the, for the platform and for customers? >>Yeah, so what we're doing is, it's like everybody else will do, we're we're looking for trade offs that make sense. You know, we really want to protect our customers data. So we look for services that support our own software with the most uptime, reliability, and durability we can get. Some things are just going to be easier to have a cloud provider take care of on our behalf. We make that transparent for our own team. And of course for customers you don't even see that, but we don't want to try to reinvent the wheel, like I had mentioned with SQL data stores for metadata, perhaps let's build on top of what of these three large cloud providers have already perfected. And we can then focus on our platform engineering and we can have our developers then focus on the influx data, software, influx, cloud software. >>So take it to the customer level, what does it mean for them? What's the value that they're gonna get out of all these innovations that we've been been talking about today and what can they expect in the future? >>So first of all, people who use the OSS product are really gonna be at home on our cloud platform. You can run it on your desktop machine, on a single server, what have you, but then you want to scale up. We have some 270 terabytes of data across, over 4 billion series keys that people have stored. So there's a proven ability to scale now in terms of the open source, open source software and how we've developed the platform. You're getting highly available high cardinality time series platform. We manage it and, and really as, as I mentioned earlier, we can keep up with the state of the art. We keep reinventing, we keep deploying things in real time. We deploy to our platform every day repeatedly all the time. And it's that continuous deployment that allows us to continue testing things in flight, rolling things out that change new features, better ways of doing deployments, safer ways of doing deployments. >>All of that happens behind the scenes. And like we had mentioned earlier, Kubernetes, I mean that, that allows us to get that done. We couldn't do it without having that platform as a, as a base layer for us to then put our software on. So we, we iterate quickly. When you're on the, the Influx cloud platform, you really are able to, to take advantage of new features immediately. We roll things out every day and as those things go into production, you have, you have the ability to, to use them. And so in the end we want you to focus on getting actual insights from your data instead of running infrastructure, you know, let, let us do that for you. So, >>And that makes sense, but so is the, is the, are the innovations that we're talking about in the evolution of Influx db, do, do you see that as sort of a natural evolution for existing customers? I, is it, I'm sure the answer is both, but is it opening up new territory for customers? Can you add some color to that? >>Yeah, it really is it, it's a little bit of both. Any engineer will say, well, it depends. So cloud native technologies are, are really the hot thing. Iot, industrial iot especially, people want to just shove tons of data out there and be able to do queries immediately and they don't wanna manage infrastructure. What we've started to see are people that use the cloud service as their, their data store backbone and then they use edge computing with R OSS product to ingest data from say, multiple production lines and downsample that data, send the rest of that data off influx cloud where the heavy processing takes place. So really us being in all the different clouds and iterating on that and being in all sorts of different regions allows for people to really get out of the, the business of man trying to manage that big data, have us take care of that. And of course as we change the platform end users benefit from that immediately. And, >>And so obviously taking away a lot of the heavy lifting for the infrastructure, would you say the same thing about security, especially as you go out to IOT and the Edge? How should we be thinking about the value that you bring from a security perspective? >>Yeah, we take, we take security super seriously. It, it's built into our dna. We do a lot of work to ensure that our platform is secure, that the data we store is, is kept private. It's of course always a concern. You see in the news all the time, companies being compromised, you know, that's something that you can have an entire team working on, which we do to make sure that the data that you have, whether it's in transit, whether it's at rest, is always kept secure, is only viewable by you. You know, you look at things like software, bill of materials, if you're running this yourself, you have to go vet all sorts of different pieces of software. And we do that, you know, as we use new tools. That's something that, that's just part of our jobs to make sure that the platform that we're running it has, has fully vetted software and, and with open source especially, that's a lot of work. And so it's, it's definitely new territory. Supply chain attacks are, are definitely happening at a higher clip than they used to, but that is, that is really just part of a day in the, the life for folks like us that are, are building platforms. >>Yeah, and that's key. I mean especially when you start getting into the, the, you know, we talk about IOT and the operations technologies, the engineers running the, that infrastructure, you know, historically, as you know, Tim, they, they would air gap everything. That's how they kept it safe. But that's not feasible anymore. Everything's >>That >>Connected now, right? And so you've gotta have a partner that is again, take away that heavy lifting to r and d so you can focus on some of the other activities. Right. Give us the, the last word and the, the key takeaways from your perspective. >>Well, you know, from my perspective I see it as, as a a two lane approach with, with influx, with Anytime series data, you know, you've got a lot of stuff that you're gonna run on-prem, what you had mentioned, air gaping. Sure there's plenty of need for that, but at the end of the day, people that don't want to run big data centers, people that want torus their data to, to a company that's, that's got a full platform set up for them that they can build on, send that data over to the cloud, the cloud is not going away. I think more hybrid approach is, is where the future lives and that's what we're prepared for. >>Tim, really appreciate you coming to the program. Great stuff. Good to see you. >>Thanks very much. Appreciate it. >>Okay, in a moment I'll be back to wrap up. Today's session, you're watching The Cube. >>Are you looking for some help getting started with InfluxDB Telegraph or Flux Check >>Out Influx DB University >>Where you can find our entire catalog of free training that will help you make the most of your time series data >>Get >>Started for free@influxdbu.com. >>We'll see you in class. >>Okay, so we heard today from three experts on time series and data, how the Influx DB platform is evolving to support new ways of analyzing large data sets very efficiently and effectively in real time. And we learned that key open source components like Apache Arrow and the Rust Programming environment Data fusion par K are being leveraged to support realtime data analytics at scale. We also learned about the contributions in importance of open source software and how the Influx DB community is evolving the platform with minimal disruption to support new workloads, new use cases, and the future of realtime data analytics. Now remember these sessions, they're all available on demand. You can go to the cube.net to find those. Don't forget to check out silicon angle.com for all the news related to things enterprise and emerging tech. And you should also check out influx data.com. There you can learn about the company's products. You'll find developer resources like free courses. You could join the developer community and work with your peers to learn and solve problems. And there are plenty of other resources around use cases and customer stories on the website. This is Dave Valante. Thank you for watching Evolving Influx DB into the smart data platform, made possible by influx data and brought to you by the Cube, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

>>This past May, The Cube in collaboration with Influx data shared with you the latest innovations in Time series databases. We talked at length about why a purpose built time series database for many use cases, was a superior alternative to general purpose databases trying to do the same thing. Now, you may, you may remember the time series data is any data that's stamped in time, and if it's stamped, it can be analyzed historically. And when we introduced the concept to the community, we talked about how in theory, those time slices could be taken, you know, every hour, every minute, every second, you know, down to the millisecond and how the world was moving toward realtime or near realtime data analysis to support physical infrastructure like sensors and other devices and IOT equipment. A time series databases have had to evolve to efficiently support realtime data in emerging use cases in iot T and other use cases. >>And to do that, new architectural innovations have to be brought to bear. As is often the case, open source software is the linchpin to those innovations. Hello and welcome to Evolving Influx DB into the smart Data platform, made possible by influx data and produced by the Cube. My name is Dave Valante and I'll be your host today. Now in this program we're going to dig pretty deep into what's happening with Time series data generally, and specifically how Influx DB is evolving to support new workloads and demands and data, and specifically around data analytics use cases in real time. Now, first we're gonna hear from Brian Gilmore, who is the director of IOT and emerging technologies at Influx Data. And we're gonna talk about the continued evolution of Influx DB and the new capabilities enabled by open source generally and specific tools. And in this program you're gonna hear a lot about things like Rust, implementation of Apache Arrow, the use of par k and tooling such as data fusion, which powering a new engine for Influx db. >>Now, these innovations, they evolve the idea of time series analysis by dramatically increasing the granularity of time series data by compressing the historical time slices, if you will, from, for example, minutes down to milliseconds. And at the same time, enabling real time analytics with an architecture that can process data much faster and much more efficiently. Now, after Brian, we're gonna hear from Anna East Dos Georgio, who is a developer advocate at In Flux Data. And we're gonna get into the why of these open source capabilities and how they contribute to the evolution of the Influx DB platform. And then we're gonna close the program with Tim Yokum, he's the director of engineering at Influx Data, and he's gonna explain how the Influx DB community actually evolved the data engine in mid-flight and which decisions went into the innovations that are coming to the market. Thank you for being here. We hope you enjoy the program. Let's get started. Okay, we're kicking things off with Brian Gilmore. He's the director of i t and emerging Technology at Influx State of Bryan. Welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks Dave. Great to be here. I appreciate the time. >>Hey, explain why Influx db, you know, needs a new engine. Was there something wrong with the current engine? What's going on there? >>No, no, not at all. I mean, I think it's, for us, it's been about staying ahead of the market. I think, you know, if we think about what our customers are coming to us sort of with now, you know, related to requests like sql, you know, query support, things like that, we have to figure out a way to, to execute those for them in a way that will scale long term. And then we also, we wanna make sure we're innovating, we're sort of staying ahead of the market as well and sort of anticipating those future needs. So, you know, this is really a, a transparent change for our customers. I mean, I think we'll be adding new capabilities over time that sort of leverage this new engine, but you know, initially the customers who are using us are gonna see just great improvements in performance, you know, especially those that are working at the top end of the, of the workload scale, you know, the massive data volumes and things like that. >>Yeah, and we're gonna get into that today and the architecture and the like, but what was the catalyst for the enhancements? I mean, when and how did this all come about? >>Well, I mean, like three years ago we were primarily on premises, right? I mean, I think we had our open source, we had an enterprise product, you know, and, and sort of shifting that technology, especially the open source code base to a service basis where we were hosting it through, you know, multiple cloud providers. That was, that was, that was a long journey I guess, you know, phase one was, you know, we wanted to host enterprise for our customers, so we sort of created a service that we just managed and ran our enterprise product for them. You know, phase two of this cloud effort was to, to optimize for like multi-tenant, multi-cloud, be able to, to host it in a truly like sass manner where we could use, you know, some type of customer activity or consumption as the, the pricing vector, you know, And, and that was sort of the birth of the, of the real first influx DB cloud, you know, which has been really successful. >>We've seen, I think like 60,000 people sign up and we've got tons and tons of, of both enterprises as well as like new companies, developers, and of course a lot of home hobbyists and enthusiasts who are using out on a, on a daily basis, you know, and having that sort of big pool of, of very diverse and very customers to chat with as they're using the product, as they're giving us feedback, et cetera, has has, you know, pointed us in a really good direction in terms of making sure we're continuously improving that and then also making these big leaps as we're doing with this, with this new engine. >>Right. So you've called it a transparent change for customers, so I'm presuming it's non-disruptive, but I really wanna understand how much of a pivot this is and what, what does it take to make that shift from, you know, time series, you know, specialist to real time analytics and being able to support both? >>Yeah, I mean, it's much more of an evolution, I think, than like a shift or a pivot. You know, time series data is always gonna be fundamental and sort of the basis of the solutions that we offer our customers, and then also the ones that they're building on the sort of raw APIs of our platform themselves. You know, the time series market is one that we've worked diligently to lead. I mean, I think when it comes to like metrics, especially like sensor data and app and infrastructure metrics, if we're being honest though, I think our, our user base is well aware that the way we were architected was much more towards those sort of like backwards looking historical type analytics, which are key for troubleshooting and making sure you don't, you know, run into the same problem twice. But, you know, we had to ask ourselves like, what can we do to like better handle those queries from a performance and a, and a, you know, a time to response on the queries, and can we get that to the point where the results sets are coming back so quickly from the time of query that we can like limit that window down to minutes and then seconds. >>And now with this new engine, we're really starting to talk about a query window that could be like returning results in, in, you know, milliseconds of time since it hit the, the, the ingest queue. And that's, that's really getting to the point where as your data is available, you can use it and you can query it, you can visualize it, and you can do all those sort of magical things with it, you know? And I think getting all of that to a place where we're saying like, yes to the customer on, you know, all of the, the real time queries, the, the multiple language query support, but, you know, it was hard, but we're now at a spot where we can start introducing that to, you know, a a limited number of customers, strategic customers and strategic availability zones to start. But you know, everybody over time. >>So you're basically going from what happened to in, you can still do that obviously, but to what's happening now in the moment? >>Yeah, yeah. I mean if you think about time, it's always sort of past, right? I mean, like in the moment right now, whether you're talking about like a millisecond ago or a minute ago, you know, that's, that's pretty much right now, I think for most people, especially in these use cases where you have other sort of components of latency induced by the, by the underlying data collection, the architecture, the infrastructure, the, you know, the, the devices and you know, the sort of highly distributed nature of all of this. So yeah, I mean, getting, getting a customer or a user to be able to use the data as soon as it is available is what we're after here. >>I always thought, you know, real, I always thought of real time as before you lose the customer, but now in this context, maybe it's before the machine blows up. >>Yeah, it's, it's, I mean it is operationally or operational real time is different, you know, and that's one of the things that really triggered us to know that we were, we were heading in the right direction, is just how many sort of operational customers we have. You know, everything from like aerospace and defense. We've got companies monitoring satellites, we've got tons of industrial users, users using us as a processes storing on the plant floor, you know, and, and if we can satisfy their sort of demands for like real time historical perspective, that's awesome. I think what we're gonna do here is we're gonna start to like edge into the real time that they're used to in terms of, you know, the millisecond response times that they expect of their control systems, certainly not their, their historians and databases. >>I, is this available, these innovations to influx DB cloud customers only who can access this capability? >>Yeah. I mean commercially and today, yes. You know, I think we want to emphasize that's a, for now our goal is to get our latest and greatest and our best to everybody over time. Of course. You know, one of the things we had to do here was like we double down on sort of our, our commitment to open source and availability. So like anybody today can take a look at the, the libraries in on our GitHub and, you know, can ex inspect it and even can try to, you know, implement or execute some of it themselves in their own infrastructure. You know, we are, we're committed to bringing our sort of latest and greatest to our cloud customers first for a couple of reasons. Number one, you know, there are big workloads and they have high expectations of us. I think number two, it also gives us the opportunity to monitor a little bit more closely how it's working, how they're using it, like how the system itself is performing. >>And so just, you know, being careful, maybe a little cautious in terms of, of, of how big we go with this right away, just sort of both limits, you know, the risk of, of, you know, any issues that can come with new software rollouts. We haven't seen anything so far, but also it does give us the opportunity to have like meaningful conversations with a small group of users who are using the products, but once we get through that and they give us two thumbs up on it, it'll be like, open the gates and let everybody in. It's gonna be exciting time for the whole ecosystem. >>Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And you can do some experimentation and, you know, using the cloud resources. Let's dig into some of the architectural and technical innovations that are gonna help deliver on this vision. What, what should we know there? >>Well, I mean, I think foundationally we built the, the new core on Rust. You know, this is a new very sort of popular systems language, you know, it's extremely efficient, but it's also built for speed and memory safety, which goes back to that us being able to like deliver it in a way that is, you know, something we can inspect very closely, but then also rely on the fact that it's going to behave well. And if it does find error conditions, I mean we, we've loved working with Go and, you know, a lot of our libraries will continue to, to be sort of implemented in Go, but you know, when it came to this particular new engine, you know, that power performance and stability rust was critical. On top of that, like, we've also integrated Apache Arrow and Apache Parque for persistence. I think for anybody who's really familiar with the nuts and bolts of our backend and our TSI and our, our time series merged Trees, this is a big break from that, you know, arrow on the sort of in MI side and then Par K in the on disk side. >>It, it allows us to, to present, you know, a unified set of APIs for those really fast real time inquiries that we talked about, as well as for very large, you know, historical sort of bulk data archives in that PARQUE format, which is also cool because there's an entire ecosystem sort of popping up around Parque in terms of the machine learning community, you know, and getting that all to work, we had to glue it together with aero flight. That's sort of what we're using as our, our RPC component. You know, it handles the orchestration and the, the transportation of the Coer data. Now we're moving to like a true Coer database model for this, this version of the engine, you know, and it removes a lot of overhead for us in terms of having to manage all that serialization, the deserialization, and, you know, to that again, like blurring that line between real time and historical data. It's, you know, it's, it's highly optimized for both streaming micro batch and then batches, but true streaming as well. >>Yeah. Again, I mean, it's funny you mentioned Rust. It is, it's been around for a long time, but it's popularity is, is you know, really starting to hit that steep part of the S-curve. And, and we're gonna dig into to more of that, but give us any, is there anything else that we should know about Bryan? Give us the last word? >>Well, I mean, I think first I'd like everybody sort of watching just to like take a look at what we're offering in terms of early access in beta programs. I mean, if, if, if you wanna participate or if you wanna work sort of in terms of early access with the, with the new engine, please reach out to the team. I'm sure you know, there's a lot of communications going out and you know, it'll be highly featured on our, our website, you know, but reach out to the team, believe it or not, like we have a lot more going on than just the new engine. And so there are also other programs, things we're, we're offering to customers in terms of the user interface, data collection and things like that. And, you know, if you're a customer of ours and you have a sales team, a commercial team that you work with, you can reach out to them and see what you can get access to because we can flip a lot of stuff on, especially in cloud through feature flags. >>But if there's something new that you wanna try out, we'd just love to hear from you. And then, you know, our goal would be that as we give you access to all of these new cool features that, you know, you would give us continuous feedback on these products and services, not only like what you need today, but then what you'll need tomorrow to, to sort of build the next versions of your business. Because you know, the whole database, the ecosystem as it expands out into to, you know, this vertically oriented stack of cloud services and enterprise databases and edge databases, you know, it's gonna be what we all make it together, not just, you know, those of us who were employed by Influx db. And then finally I would just say please, like watch in ICE in Tim's sessions, like these are two of our best and brightest, They're totally brilliant, completely pragmatic, and they are most of all customer obsessed, which is amazing. And there's no better takes, like honestly on the, the sort of technical details of this, then there's, especially when it comes to like the value that these investments will, will bring to our customers and our communities. So encourage you to, to, you know, pay more attention to them than you did to me, for sure. >>Brian Gilmore, great stuff. Really appreciate your time. Thank you. >>Yeah, thanks Dave. It was awesome. Look forward to it. >>Yeah, me too. Looking forward to see how the, the community actually applies these new innovations and goes, goes beyond just the historical into the real time really hot area. As Brian said in a moment, I'll be right back with Anna East dos Georgio to dig into the critical aspects of key open source components of the Influx DB engine, including Rust, Arrow, Parque, data fusion. Keep it right there. You don't wanna miss this >>Time series Data is everywhere. The number of sensors, systems and applications generating time series data increases every day. All these data sources producing so much data can cause analysis paralysis. Influx DB is an entire platform designed with everything you need to quickly build applications that generate value from time series data influx. DB Cloud is a serverless solution, which means you don't need to buy or manage your own servers. There's no need to worry about provisioning because you only pay for what you use. Influx DB Cloud is fully managed so you get the newest features and enhancements as they're added to the platform's code base. It also means you can spend time building solutions and delivering value to your users instead of wasting time and effort managing something else. Influx TVB Cloud offers a range of security features to protect your data, multiple layers of redundancy ensure you don't lose any data access controls ensure that only the people who should see your data can see it. >>And encryption protects your data at rest and in transit between any of our regions or cloud providers. InfluxDB uses a single API across the entire platform suite so you can build on open source, deploy to the cloud and then then easily query data in the cloud at the edge or on prem using the same scripts. And InfluxDB is schemaless automatically adjusting to changes in the shape of your data without requiring changes in your application. Logic. InfluxDB Cloud is production ready from day one. All it needs is your data and your imagination. Get started today@influxdata.com slash cloud. >>Okay, we're back. I'm Dave Valante with a Cube and you're watching evolving Influx DB into the smart data platform made possible by influx data. Anna ETOs Georgio is here, she's a developer advocate for influx data and we're gonna dig into the rationale and value contribution behind several open source technologies that Influx DB is leveraging to increase the granularity of time series analysis analysis and bring the world of data into real-time analytics and is welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. >>Hi, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. >>Oh, you're very welcome. Okay, so IX is being touted as this next gen open source core for Influx db. And my understanding is that it leverages in memory of course for speed. It's a kilo store, so it gives you a compression efficiency, it's gonna give you faster query speeds, you store files and object storage, so you got very cost effective approach. Are these the salient points on the platform? I know there are probably dozens of other features, but what are the high level value points that people should understand? >>Sure, that's a great question. So some of the main requirements that IOx is trying to achieve and some of the most impressive ones to me, the first one is that it aims to have no limits on cardinality and also allow you to write any kind of event data that you want, whether that's live tag or a field. It also wants to deliver the best in class performance on analytics queries. In addition to our already well served metrics queries, we also wanna have operator control over memory usage. So you should be able to define how much memory is used for buffering caching and query processing. Some other really important parts is the ability to have bulk data export and import super useful. Also broader ecosystem compatibility where possible we aim to use and embrace emerging standards in the data analytics ecosystem and have compatibility with things like sql, Python, and maybe even pandas in the future. >>Okay, so lot there. Now we talked to Brian about how you're using Rust and which is not a new programming language and of course we had some drama around Rust during the pandemic with the Mozilla layoffs, but the formation of the Rust Foundation really addressed any of those concerns. You got big guns like Amazon and Google and Microsoft throwing their collective weights behind it. It's really, the adoption is really starting to get steep on the S-curve. So lots of platforms, lots of adoption with rust, but why rust as an alternative to say c plus plus for example? >>Sure, that's a great question. So Russ was chosen because of his exceptional performance and reliability. So while Russ is synt tactically similar to c plus plus and it has similar performance, it also compiles to a native code like c plus plus. But unlike c plus plus, it also has much better memory safety. So memory safety is protection against bugs or security vulnerabilities that lead to excessive memory usage or memory leaks. And rust achieves this memory safety due to its like innovative type system. Additionally, it doesn't allow for dangling pointers. And dangling pointers are the main classes of errors that lead to exploitable security vulnerabilities in languages like c plus plus. So Russ like helps meet that requirement of having no limits on ality, for example, because it's, we're also using the Russ implementation of Apache Arrow and this control over memory and also Russ Russ's packaging system called crates IO offers everything that you need out of the box to have features like AY and a weight to fix race conditions, to protection against buffering overflows and to ensure thread safe async cashing structures as well. So essentially it's just like has all the control, all the fine grain control, you need to take advantage of memory and all your resources as well as possible so that you can handle those really, really high ity use cases. >>Yeah, and the more I learn about the, the new engine and, and the platform IOCs et cetera, you know, you, you see things like, you know, the old days not even to even today you do a lot of garbage collection in these, in these systems and there's an inverse, you know, impact relative to performance. So it looks like you really, you know, the community is modernizing the platform, but I wanna talk about Apache Arrow for a moment. It it's designed to address the constraints that are associated with analyzing large data sets. We, we know that, but please explain why, what, what is Arrow and and what does it bring to Influx db? >>Sure, yeah. So Arrow is a, a framework for defining in memory calmer data. And so much of the efficiency and performance of IOx comes from taking advantage of calmer data structures. And I will, if you don't mind, take a moment to kind of of illustrate why column or data structures are so valuable. Let's pretend that we are gathering field data about the temperature in our room and also maybe the temperature of our stove. And in our table we have those two temperature values as well as maybe a measurement value, timestamp value, maybe some other tag values that describe what room and what house, et cetera we're getting this data from. And so you can picture this table where we have like two rows with the two temperature values for both our room and the stove. Well usually our room temperature is regulated so those values don't change very often. >>So when you have calm oriented st calm oriented storage, essentially you take each row, each column and group it together. And so if that's the case and you're just taking temperature values from the room and a lot of those temperature values are the same, then you'll, you might be able to imagine how equal values will then enable each other and when they neighbor each other in the storage format, this provides a really perfect opportunity for cheap compression. And then this cheap compression enables high cardinality use cases. It also enables for faster scan rates. So if you wanna define like the men and max value of the temperature in the room across a thousand different points, you only have to get those a thousand different points in order to answer that question and you have those immediately available to you. But let's contrast this with a row oriented storage solution instead so that we can understand better the benefits of calmer oriented storage. >>So if you had a row oriented storage, you'd first have to look at every field like the temperature in, in the room and the temperature of the stove. You'd have to go across every tag value that maybe describes where the room is located or what model the stove is. And every timestamp you'd then have to pluck out that one temperature value that you want at that one time stamp and do that for every single row. So you're scanning across a ton more data and that's why Rowe Oriented doesn't provide the same efficiency as calmer and Apache Arrow is in memory calmer data, commoner data fit framework. So that's where a lot of the advantages come >>From. Okay. So you basically described like a traditional database, a row approach, but I've seen like a lot of traditional database say, okay, now we've got, we can handle colo format versus what you're talking about is really, you know, kind of native i, is it not as effective? Is the, is the foreman not as effective because it's largely a, a bolt on? Can you, can you like elucidate on that front? >>Yeah, it's, it's not as effective because you have more expensive compression and because you can't scan across the values as quickly. And so those are, that's pretty much the main reasons why, why RO row oriented storage isn't as efficient as calm, calmer oriented storage. Yeah. >>Got it. So let's talk about Arrow Data Fusion. What is data fusion? I know it's written in Rust, but what does it bring to the table here? >>Sure. So it's an extensible query execution framework and it uses Arrow as it's in memory format. So the way that it helps in influx DB IOCs is that okay, it's great if you can write unlimited amount of cardinality into influx Cbis, but if you don't have a query engine that can successfully query that data, then I don't know how much value it is for you. So Data fusion helps enable the, the query process and transformation of that data. It also has a PANDAS API so that you could take advantage of PANDAS data frames as well and all of the machine learning tools associated with Pandas. >>Okay. You're also leveraging Par K in the platform cause we heard a lot about Par K in the middle of the last decade cuz as a storage format to improve on Hadoop column stores. What are you doing with Parque and why is it important? >>Sure. So parque is the column oriented durable file format. So it's important because it'll enable bulk import, bulk export, it has compatibility with Python and Pandas, so it supports a broader ecosystem. Par K files also take very little disc disc space and they're faster to scan because again, they're column oriented in particular, I think PAR K files are like 16 times cheaper than CSV files, just as kind of a point of reference. And so that's essentially a lot of the, the benefits of par k. >>Got it. Very popular. So and he's, what exactly is influx data focusing on as a committer to these projects? What is your focus? What's the value that you're bringing to the community? >>Sure. So Influx DB first has contributed a lot of different, different things to the Apache ecosystem. For example, they contribute an implementation of Apache Arrow and go and that will support clearing with flux. Also, there has been a quite a few contributions to data fusion for things like memory optimization and supportive additional SQL features like support for timestamp, arithmetic and support for exist clauses and support for memory control. So yeah, Influx has contributed a a lot to the Apache ecosystem and continues to do so. And I think kind of the idea here is that if you can improve these upstream projects and then the long term strategy here is that the more you contribute and build those up, then the more you will perpetuate that cycle of improvement and the more we will invest in our own project as well. So it's just that kind of symbiotic relationship and appreciation of the open source community. >>Yeah. Got it. You got that virtuous cycle going, the people call the flywheel. Give us your last thoughts and kind of summarize, you know, where what, what the big takeaways are from your perspective. >>So I think the big takeaway is that influx data is doing a lot of really exciting things with Influx DB IOx and I really encourage, if you are interested in learning more about the technologies that Influx is leveraging to produce IOCs, the challenges associated with it and all of the hard work questions and you just wanna learn more, then I would encourage you to go to the monthly Tech talks and community office hours and they are on every second Wednesday of the month at 8:30 AM Pacific time. There's also a community forums and a community Slack channel look for the influx DDB unders IAC channel specifically to learn more about how to join those office hours and those monthly tech tech talks as well as ask any questions they have about iacs, what to expect and what you'd like to learn more about. I as a developer advocate, I wanna answer your questions. So if there's a particular technology or stack that you wanna dive deeper into and want more explanation about how INFLUX DB leverages it to build IOCs, I will be really excited to produce content on that topic for you. >>Yeah, that's awesome. You guys have a really rich community, collaborate with your peers, solve problems, and, and you guys super responsive, so really appreciate that. All right, thank you so much Anise for explaining all this open source stuff to the audience and why it's important to the future of data. >>Thank you. I really appreciate it. >>All right, you're very welcome. Okay, stay right there and in a moment I'll be back with Tim Yoakum, he's the director of engineering for Influx Data and we're gonna talk about how you update a SAS engine while the plane is flying at 30,000 feet. You don't wanna miss this. >>I'm really glad that we went with InfluxDB Cloud for our hosting because it has saved us a ton of time. It's helped us move faster, it's saved us money. And also InfluxDB has good support. My name's Alex Nada. I am CTO at Noble nine. Noble Nine is a platform to measure and manage service level objectives, which is a great way of measuring the reliability of your systems. You can essentially think of an slo, the product we're providing to our customers as a bunch of time series. So we need a way to store that data and the corresponding time series that are related to those. The main reason that we settled on InfluxDB as we were shopping around is that InfluxDB has a very flexible query language and as a general purpose time series database, it basically had the set of features we were looking for. >>As our platform has grown, we found InfluxDB Cloud to be a really scalable solution. We can quickly iterate on new features and functionality because Influx Cloud is entirely managed, it probably saved us at least a full additional person on our team. We also have the option of running InfluxDB Enterprise, which gives us the ability to even host off the cloud or in a private cloud if that's preferred by a customer. Influx data has been really flexible in adapting to the hosting requirements that we have. They listened to the challenges we were facing and they helped us solve it. As we've continued to grow, I'm really happy we have influx data by our side. >>Okay, we're back with Tim Yokum, who is the director of engineering at Influx Data. Tim, welcome. Good to see you. >>Good to see you. Thanks for having me. >>You're really welcome. Listen, we've been covering open source software in the cube for more than a decade, and we've kind of watched the innovation from the big data ecosystem. The cloud has been being built out on open source, mobile, social platforms, key databases, and of course influx DB and influx data has been a big consumer and contributor of open source software. So my question to you is, where have you seen the biggest bang for the buck from open source software? >>So yeah, you know, influx really, we thrive at the intersection of commercial services and open, so open source software. So OSS keeps us on the cutting edge. We benefit from OSS in delivering our own service from our core storage engine technologies to web services temping engines. Our, our team stays lean and focused because we build on proven tools. We really build on the shoulders of giants and like you've mentioned, even better, we contribute a lot back to the projects that we use as well as our own product influx db. >>You know, but I gotta ask you, Tim, because one of the challenge that that we've seen in particular, you saw this in the heyday of Hadoop, the, the innovations come so fast and furious and as a software company you gotta place bets, you gotta, you know, commit people and sometimes those bets can be risky and not pay off well, how have you managed this challenge? >>Oh, it moves fast. Yeah, that, that's a benefit though because it, the community moves so quickly that today's hot technology can be tomorrow's dinosaur. And what we, what we tend to do is, is we fail fast and fail often. We try a lot of things. You know, you look at Kubernetes for example, that ecosystem is driven by thousands of intelligent developers, engineers, builders, they're adding value every day. So we have to really keep up with that. And as the stack changes, we, we try different technologies, we try different methods, and at the end of the day, we come up with a better platform as a result of just the constant change in the environment. It is a challenge for us, but it's, it's something that we just do every day. >>So we have a survey partner down in New York City called Enterprise Technology Research etr, and they do these quarterly surveys of about 1500 CIOs, IT practitioners, and they really have a good pulse on what's happening with spending. And the data shows that containers generally, but specifically Kubernetes is one of the areas that has kind of, it's been off the charts and seen the most significant adoption and velocity particularly, you know, along with cloud. But, but really Kubernetes is just, you know, still up until the right consistently even with, you know, the macro headwinds and all, all of the stuff that we're sick of talking about. But, so what are you doing with Kubernetes in the platform? >>Yeah, it, it's really central to our ability to run the product. When we first started out, we were just on AWS and, and the way we were running was, was a little bit like containers junior. Now we're running Kubernetes everywhere at aws, Azure, Google Cloud. It allows us to have a consistent experience across three different cloud providers and we can manage that in code so our developers can focus on delivering services, not trying to learn the intricacies of Amazon, Azure, and Google and figure out how to deliver services on those three clouds with all of their differences. >>Just to follow up on that, is it, no. So I presume it's sounds like there's a PAs layer there to allow you guys to have a consistent experience across clouds and out to the edge, you know, wherever is that, is that correct? >>Yeah, so we've basically built more or less platform engineering, This is the new hot phrase, you know, it, it's, Kubernetes has made a lot of things easy for us because we've built a platform that our developers can lean on and they only have to learn one way of deploying their application, managing their application. And so that, that just gets all of the underlying infrastructure out of the way and, and lets them focus on delivering influx cloud. >>Yeah, and I know I'm taking a little bit of a tangent, but is that, that, I'll call it a PAs layer if I can use that term. Is that, are there specific attributes to Influx db or is it kind of just generally off the shelf paths? You know, are there, is, is there any purpose built capability there that, that is, is value add or is it pretty much generic? >>So we really build, we, we look at things through, with a build versus buy through a, a build versus by lens. Some things we want to leverage cloud provider services, for instance, Postgres databases for metadata, perhaps we'll get that off of our plate, let someone else run that. We're going to deploy a platform that our engineers can, can deliver on that has consistency that is, is all generated from code that we can as a, as an SRE group, as an ops team, that we can manage with very few people really, and we can stamp out clusters across multiple regions and in no time. >>So how, so sometimes you build, sometimes you buy it. How do you make those decisions and and what does that mean for the, for the platform and for customers? >>Yeah, so what we're doing is, it's like everybody else will do, we're we're looking for trade offs that make sense. You know, we really want to protect our customers data. So we look for services that support our own software with the most uptime, reliability, and durability we can get. Some things are just going to be easier to have a cloud provider take care of on our behalf. We make that transparent for our own team. And of course for customers you don't even see that, but we don't want to try to reinvent the wheel, like I had mentioned with SQL data stores for metadata, perhaps let's build on top of what of these three large cloud providers have already perfected. And we can then focus on our platform engineering and we can have our developers then focus on the influx data, software, influx, cloud software. >>So take it to the customer level, what does it mean for them? What's the value that they're gonna get out of all these innovations that we've been been talking about today and what can they expect in the future? >>So first of all, people who use the OSS product are really gonna be at home on our cloud platform. You can run it on your desktop machine, on a single server, what have you, but then you want to scale up. We have some 270 terabytes of data across, over 4 billion series keys that people have stored. So there's a proven ability to scale now in terms of the open source, open source software and how we've developed the platform. You're getting highly available high cardinality time series platform. We manage it and, and really as, as I mentioned earlier, we can keep up with the state of the art. We keep reinventing, we keep deploying things in real time. We deploy to our platform every day repeatedly all the time. And it's that continuous deployment that allows us to continue testing things in flight, rolling things out that change new features, better ways of doing deployments, safer ways of doing deployments. >>All of that happens behind the scenes. And like we had mentioned earlier, Kubernetes, I mean that, that allows us to get that done. We couldn't do it without having that platform as a, as a base layer for us to then put our software on. So we, we iterate quickly. When you're on the, the Influx cloud platform, you really are able to, to take advantage of new features immediately. We roll things out every day and as those things go into production, you have, you have the ability to, to use them. And so in the end we want you to focus on getting actual insights from your data instead of running infrastructure, you know, let, let us do that for you. So, >>And that makes sense, but so is the, is the, are the innovations that we're talking about in the evolution of Influx db, do, do you see that as sort of a natural evolution for existing customers? I, is it, I'm sure the answer is both, but is it opening up new territory for customers? Can you add some color to that? >>Yeah, it really is it, it's a little bit of both. Any engineer will say, well, it depends. So cloud native technologies are, are really the hot thing. Iot, industrial iot especially, people want to just shove tons of data out there and be able to do queries immediately and they don't wanna manage infrastructure. What we've started to see are people that use the cloud service as their, their data store backbone and then they use edge computing with R OSS product to ingest data from say, multiple production lines and downsample that data, send the rest of that data off influx cloud where the heavy processing takes place. So really us being in all the different clouds and iterating on that and being in all sorts of different regions allows for people to really get out of the, the business of man trying to manage that big data, have us take care of that. And of course as we change the platform end users benefit from that immediately. And, >>And so obviously taking away a lot of the heavy lifting for the infrastructure, would you say the same thing about security, especially as you go out to IOT and the Edge? How should we be thinking about the value that you bring from a security perspective? >>Yeah, we take, we take security super seriously. It, it's built into our dna. We do a lot of work to ensure that our platform is secure, that the data we store is, is kept private. It's of course always a concern. You see in the news all the time, companies being compromised, you know, that's something that you can have an entire team working on, which we do to make sure that the data that you have, whether it's in transit, whether it's at rest, is always kept secure, is only viewable by you. You know, you look at things like software, bill of materials, if you're running this yourself, you have to go vet all sorts of different pieces of software. And we do that, you know, as we use new tools. That's something that, that's just part of our jobs to make sure that the platform that we're running it has, has fully vetted software and, and with open source especially, that's a lot of work. And so it's, it's definitely new territory. Supply chain attacks are, are definitely happening at a higher clip than they used to, but that is, that is really just part of a day in the, the life for folks like us that are, are building platforms. >>Yeah, and that's key. I mean especially when you start getting into the, the, you know, we talk about IOT and the operations technologies, the engineers running the, that infrastructure, you know, historically, as you know, Tim, they, they would air gap everything. That's how they kept it safe. But that's not feasible anymore. Everything's >>That >>Connected now, right? And so you've gotta have a partner that is again, take away that heavy lifting to r and d so you can focus on some of the other activities. Right. Give us the, the last word and the, the key takeaways from your perspective. >>Well, you know, from my perspective I see it as, as a a two lane approach with, with influx, with Anytime series data, you know, you've got a lot of stuff that you're gonna run on-prem, what you had mentioned, air gaping. Sure there's plenty of need for that, but at the end of the day, people that don't want to run big data centers, people that want torus their data to, to a company that's, that's got a full platform set up for them that they can build on, send that data over to the cloud, the cloud is not going away. I think more hybrid approach is, is where the future lives and that's what we're prepared for. >>Tim, really appreciate you coming to the program. Great stuff. Good to see you. >>Thanks very much. Appreciate it. >>Okay, in a moment I'll be back to wrap up. Today's session, you're watching The Cube. >>Are you looking for some help getting started with InfluxDB Telegraph or Flux Check >>Out Influx DB University >>Where you can find our entire catalog of free training that will help you make the most of your time series data >>Get >>Started for free@influxdbu.com. >>We'll see you in class. >>Okay, so we heard today from three experts on time series and data, how the Influx DB platform is evolving to support new ways of analyzing large data sets very efficiently and effectively in real time. And we learned that key open source components like Apache Arrow and the Rust Programming environment Data fusion par K are being leveraged to support realtime data analytics at scale. We also learned about the contributions in importance of open source software and how the Influx DB community is evolving the platform with minimal disruption to support new workloads, new use cases, and the future of realtime data analytics. Now remember these sessions, they're all available on demand. You can go to the cube.net to find those. Don't forget to check out silicon angle.com for all the news related to things enterprise and emerging tech. And you should also check out influx data.com. There you can learn about the company's products. You'll find developer resources like free courses. You could join the developer community and work with your peers to learn and solve problems. And there are plenty of other resources around use cases and customer stories on the website. This is Dave Valante. Thank you for watching Evolving Influx DB into the smart data platform, made possible by influx data and brought to you by the Cube, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

>>Good evening, brilliant humans. My name is Savannah Peterson and very delighted to be streaming to you. Live from the Cube Studios here in Motor City, Michigan. I've got John Furrier on my left. John, this is our last interview of the day. Energy just seems to keep oozing. How >>You doing? Take two, Three days of coverage, the queue love segments. This one's great cuz we have a practitioner who's implementing all the hard core talks to be awesome. Can't wait to get into it. >>Yeah, I'm very excited for this one. If it's not very clear, we are a community focused community is a huge theme here at the show at Cape Con. And our next guests are actually a provider and a customer. Turning it over to you. Lisa and Jake, welcome to the show. >>Thank you so much for having us. >>It's great to be here. It is our pleasure. Lisa, you're with Cockroach. Just in case the audience isn't familiar, give us a quick little sound bite. >>We're a distributed sequel database. Highly scalable, reliable. The database you can't kill, right? We will survive the apocalypse. So very resilient. Our customers, mostly retail, FinTech game meet online gambling. They, they, they need that resiliency, they need that scalability. So the indestructible database is the elevator pitch >>And the success has been very well documented. Valuation obviously is a scorp guard, but huge customers. We were at the Escape 19. Just for the record, the first ever multi-cloud conference hasn't come back baby. Love it. It'll come back soon. >>Yeah, well we did a similar version of it just a month ago and I was, that was before Cockroach. I was a different company there talking a lot about multi-cloud. So, but I'm, I've been a car a couple of years now and I run community, I run developer relations. I'm still also a CNCF ambassador, so I lead community as well. I still run a really large user group in the San Francisco Bay area. So we've just >>Been in >>Community, take through the use case. Jake's story set us up. >>Well I would like Jake to take him through the use case and Cockroach is a part of it, but what they've built is amazing. And also Jake's history is amazing. So you can start Jake, >>Wherever you take >>Your Yeah, sure. I'm Jake, I'm CEO and co-founder of Offset. Oted is the commercial entity behind Spice Dvy and Spice Dvy is a permission service. Cool. So a permission service is something that lets developers and let's platform teams really unlock the full potential of their applications. So a lot of people get stuck on My R back isn't flexible enough. How do I do these fine grain things? How do I do these complex sharing workflows that my product manager thinks is so important? And so our service enables those platform teams and developers to do those kinds of things. >>What's your, what's your infrastructure? What's your setup look like? What, how are you guys looking like on the back end? >>Sure. Yeah. So we're obviously built on top of Kubernetes as well. One of the reasons that we're here. So we use Kubernetes, we use Kubernetes operators to orchestrate everything. And then we use, use Cockroach TV as our production data store, our production backend data store. >>So I'm curious, cause I love when these little matchmakers come together. You said you've now been presenting on a little bit of a road show, which is very exciting. Lisa, how are you and the team surfacing stories like Jakes, >>Well, I mean any, any place we can obviously all the social medias, all the blogs, How >>Are you finding it though? >>How, how did you Oh, like from our customers? Yeah, we have an open source version so people start to use us a long time before we even sometimes know about them. And then they'll come to us and they'll be like, I love Cockroach, and like, tell me about it. Like, tell me what you build and if it's interesting, you know, we'll we'll try to give it some light. And it's always interesting to me what people do with it because it's an interesting technology. I like what they've done with it. I mean the, the fact that it's globally distributed, right? That was like a really important thing to you. Totally. >>Yeah. We're also long term fans of Cockroach, so we actually all work together out of Workbench, which was a co-working space and investor in New York City. So yeah, we go way back. We knew the founders. I, I'm constantly saying like if I could have invested early in cockroach, that would've been the easiest check I could have ever signed. >>Yeah, that's awesome. And then we've been following that too and you guys are now using them, but folks that are out there looking to have the, the same challenges, what are the big challenges on selecting the database? I mean, as you know, the history of Cockroach and you're originating the story, folks out there might not know and they're also gonna choose a database. What's the, what's the big challenge that they can solve that that kind of comes together? What, what would you describe that? >>Sure. So we're, as I said, we're a permission service and per the data that you store in a permission service is incredibly sensitive. You need it to be around, right? You need it to be available. If the permission service goes down, almost everything else goes down because it's all calling into the permission service. Is this user allowed to do this? Are they allowed to do that? And if we can't answer those questions, then our customer is down, right? So when we're looking at a database, we're looking for reliability, we're looking for durability, disaster recovery, and then permission services are one of the only services that you usually don't shard geographically. So if you look at like AWS's iam, that's a global service, even though the individual things that they run are actually sharded by region. So we also needed a globally distributed database with all of those other properties. So that's what led us >>To, this is a huge topic. So man, we've been talking about all week the cloud is essentially distributed database at this point and it's distributed system. So distributed database is a hot topic, totally not really well reported. A lot of people talking about it, but how would you describe this distributed trend that's going on? What are the key reasons that they're driving it? What's making this more important than ever in your mind, in your opinion? >>I mean, for our use case, it was just a hard requirement, right? We had to be able to have this global service. But I think just for general use cases, a distributed database, distributed database has that like shared nothing architecture that allows you to kind of keep it running and horizontally scale it. And as your requirements and as your applications needs change, you can just keep adding on capacity and keep adding on reliability and availability. >>I'd love to get both of your opinion. You've been talking about the, the, the, the phases of customers, the advanced got Kubernetes going crazy distributed, super alpha geek. Then you got the, the people who are building now, then you got the lagers who are coming online. Where do you guys see the market now in terms of, I know the Alphas are all building all the great stuff and you guys had great success with all the top logos and they're all doing hardcore stuff. As the mainstream enterprise comes in, where's their psychology, what's on their mind? What's, you share any insight into your perspective on that? Because we're seeing a lot more of it folks becoming like real cloud players. >>Yeah, I feel like in mainstream enterprise hasn't been lagging as much as people think. You know, certainly there's been pockets in big enterprises that have been looking at this and as distributed sequel, it gives you that scalability that it's absolutely essential for big enterprises. But also it gives you the, the multi-region, you know, the, you have to be globally distributed. And for us, for enterprises, you know, you need your data near where the users are. I know this is hugely important to you as well. So you have to be able to have a multi-region functionality and that's one thing that distributed SQL lets you build and that what we built into our product. And I know that's one of the things you like too. >>Yeah, well we're a brand new product. I mean we only founded the company two years ago, but we're actually getting inbound interest from big enterprises because we solve the kinds of challenges that they have and whether, I mean, most of them already do have a cockroach footprint, but whether they did or didn't, once they need to bring in our product, they're going to be adopting cockroach transitively anyway. >>So, So you're built on top of Cockroach, right? And Spice dv, is that open source or? >>It >>Is, yep. Okay. And explain the role of open source and your business model. Can you take a minute to talk about the relevance of that? >>Yeah, open source is key. My background is, before this I was at Red Hat. Before that we were at CoreOS, so CoreOS acquisition and before that, >>One of the best acquisitions that ever happened for the value. That was a great, great team. Yeah, >>We, we, we had fun and before that we built Qua. So my co-founders and I, we built Quay, which is a, a first private docker registry. So CoreOS and, and all of those things are all open source or deeply open source. So it's just in our dna. We also see it as part of our go-to market motion. So if you are a database, a lot of people won't even consider what you're doing without being open source. Cuz they say, I don't want to take a, I don't want to, I don't want to end up in an Oracle situation >>Again. Yeah, Oracle meaning they go, you get you locked in, get you in a headlock, Increase prices. >>Yeah. Oh yeah, >>Can, can >>I got triggered. >>You need to talk about your PTSD there >>Or what. >>I mean we have 20,000 stars on GitHub because we've been open and transparent from the beginning. >>Yeah. And it >>Well, and both of your projects were started based on Google Papers, >>Right? >>That is true. Yep. And that's actually, so we're based off of the Google Zans of our paper. And as you know, Cockroach is based off of the Google Span paper and in the the Zanzibar paper, they have this globally distributed database that they're built on top of. And so when I said we're gonna go and we're gonna make a company around the Zabar paper, people would go, Well, what are you gonna do for Span? And I was like, Easy cockroach, they've got us covered. >>Yeah, I know the guys and my friends. Yeah. So the question is why didn't you get into the first round of Cockroach? She said don't answer that. >>The question he did answer though was one of those age old arguments in our community about pronunciation. We used to argue about Quay, I always called it Key of course. And the co-founder obviously knows how it's pronounced, you know, it's the et cd argument, it's the co cuddl versus the control versus coo, CTL Quay from the co-founder. That is end of argument. You heard it here first >>And we're keeping it going with Osted. So awesome. A lot of people will say Zeed or, you know, so we, we just like to have a little ambiguity >>In the, you gotta have some semantic arguments, arm wrestling here. I mean, it keeps, it keeps everyone entertained, especially on the over the weekend. What's, what's next? You got obviously Kubernetes in there. Can you explain the relationship between Kubernetes, how you're handling Spice dv? What, what does the Kubernetes piece fit in and where, where is that going to be going? >>Yeah, great question. Our flagship product right now is a dedicated, and in a dedicated, what we're doing is we're spinning up a single tenant Kubernetes cluster. We're installing all of our operator suite, and then we're installing the application and running it in a single tenant fashion for our customers in the same region, in the same data center where they're running their applications to minimize latency. Because of this, as an authorization service, latency gets passed on directly to the end user. So everybody's trying to squeeze the latency down as far as they can. And our strategy is to just run these single tenant stacks for people with the minimal latency that we can and give them a VPC dedicated link very similar to what Cockroach does in their dedicated >>Product. And the distributed architecture makes that possible because it's lighter way, it's not as heavy. Is that one of the reasons? >>Yep. And Kubernetes really gives us sort of like a, a level playing field where we can say, we're going going to take the provider, the cloud providers Kubernetes offering, normalize it, lay down our operators, and then use that as the base for delivering >>Our application. You know, Jake, you made me think of something I wanted to bring up with other guests, but now since you're here, you're an expert, I wanna bring that up, but talk about Super Cloud. We, we coined that term, but it's kind of multi-cloud, is that having workloads on multiple clouds is hard. I mean there are, they are, there are workloads on, on clouds, but the complexity of one clouds, let's take aws, they got availability zones, they got regions, you got now data issues in each one being global, not that easy on one cloud, nevermind all clouds. Can you share your thoughts on how you see that progression? Because when you start getting, as its distributed database, a lot of good things might come up that could fit into solving the complexity of global workloads. Could you share your thoughts on or scoping that problem space of, of geography? Yeah, because you mentioned latency, like that's huge. What are some of the other challenges that other people have with mobile? >>Yeah, absolutely. When you have a service like ours where the data is small, but very critical, you can get a vendor like Cockroach to step in and to fill that gap and to give you that globally distributed database that you can call into and retrieve the data. I think the trickier issues come up when you have larger data, you have huge binary blobs. So back when we were doing Quay, we wanted to be a global service as well, but we had, you know, terabytes, petabytes of data that we were like, how do we get this replicated everywhere and not go broke? Yeah. So I think those are kind of the interesting issues moving forward is what do you do with like those huge data lakes, the huge amount of data, but for the, the smaller bits, like the things that we can keep in a relational database. Yeah, we're, we're happy that that's quickly becoming a solved >>Problem. And by the way, that that data problem also is compounded when the architecture goes to the edge. >>Totally. >>I mean this is a big issue. >>Exactly. Yeah. Edge is something that we're thinking a lot about too. Yeah, we're lucky that right now the applications that are consuming us are in a data center already. But as they start to move to the edge, we're going to have to move to the edge with them. And it's a story that we're gonna have to figure out. >>All right, so you're a customer cockroach, what's the testimonial if I put you on the spot, say, hey, what's it like working with these guys? You know, what, what's the, what's the, you know, the founders, so you know, you give a good description, little biased, but we'll, we'll we'll hold you on it. >>Yeah. Working with Cockroach has been great. We've had a couple things that we've run into along the way and we've gotten great support from our account managers. They've brought in the right technical expertise when we need it. Cuz what we're doing with Cockroach is not you, you couldn't do it on Postgres, right? So it's not just a simple rip and replace for us, we're using all of the features of Cockroach, right? We're doing as of system time queries, we're doing global replication. We're, you know, we're, we're consuming it all. And so we do need help from them sometimes and they've been great. Yeah. >>And that's natural as they grow their service. I mean the world's changing. >>Well I think one of the important points that you mentioned with multi-cloud, we want you to have the choice. You know, you can run it in in clouds, you can run it hybrid, you can run it OnPrem, you can do whatever you want and it's just, it's one application that you can run in these different data centers. And so really it's up to you how do you want to build your infrastructure? >>And one of the things we've been talking about, the super cloud concept that we've been issue getting a lot of contrary, but, but people are leaning into it is that it's the refactoring and taking advantage of the services. Like what you mentioned about cockroach. People are doing that now on cloud going the lift and shift market kind of had it time now it's like hey, I can start taking advantage of these higher level services or capability of someone else's stack and refactoring it. So I think that's a dynamic that I'm seeing a lot more of. And it sounds like it's working out great in this situation. >>I just came from a talk and I asked them, you know, what don't you wanna put in the cloud and what don't you wanna run in Kubernetes or on containers and good Yeah. And the customers that I was on stage with, one of the guys made a joke and he said I would put my dog in a container room. I could, he was like in the category, which is his right, which he is in the category of like, I'll put everything in containers and these are, you know, including like mis critical apps, heritage apps, since they don't wanna see legacy anymore. Heritage apps, these are huge enterprises and they wanna put everything in the cloud. Everything >>You so want your dog that gets stuck on the airplane when it's on the tarmac. >>Oh >>God, that's, she was the, don't take that analogy. Literally don't think about that. Well that's, >>That's let's not containerize. >>There's always supply chain concern. >>It. So I mean going macro and especially given where we are cncf, it's all about open source. Do y'all think that open source builds a better future? >>Yeah and a better past. I mean this is, so much of this software is founded on open source. I, we wouldn't be here really. I've been in open source community for many, many years so I wouldn't say I'm biased. I would say this is how we build software. I came from like in a high school we're all like, oh let's build a really cool application. Oh you know what? I built this cuz I needed it, but maybe somebody else needs it too. And you put it out there and that is the ethos of Silicon Valley, right? That's where we grew up. So I've always had that mindset, you know, and social coding and why I have three people, right? Working on the same thing when one person you could share it's so inefficient. All of that. Yeah. So I think it's great that people work on what they're really good at. You know, we all, now you need some standardization, you need some kind of control around this whole thing. Sometimes some foundations to, you know, herd the cats. Yeah. But it's, it's great. Which is why I'm a c CF ambassador and I spend a lot of time, you know, in my free time talking about open source. Yeah, yeah. >>It's clear how passionate you are about it. Jake, >>This is my second company that we founded now and I don't think either of them could have existed without the base of open source, right? Like when you look at I have this cool idea for an app or a company and I want to go try it out, the last thing I want to do is go and negotiate with a vendor to get like the core data component. Yeah. To even be able to get to the >>Prototypes. NK too, by the way. Yeah. >>Hey >>Nk >>Or hire, you know, a bunch of PhDs to go and build that core component for me. So yeah, I mean nobody can argue that >>It truly is, I gotta say a best time if you're a developer right now, it's awesome to be a developer right now. It's only gonna get better. As we were riff from the last session about productivity, we believe that if you follow the digital transformation to its conclusion, developers and it aren't a department serving the business, they are the business. And that means they're running the show, which means that now their entire workflow is gonna change. It's gonna be have to be leveraging services partnering. So yeah, open source just fills that. So the more code coming up, it's just no doubt in our mind that that's go, that's happening and will accelerate. So yeah, >>You know, no one company is gonna be able to compete with a community. 50,000 users contributing versus you riding it yourself in your garage with >>Your dogs. Well it's people driven too. It's humans not container. It's humans working together. And here you'll see, I won't say horse training, that's a bad term, but like as projects start to get traction, hey, why don't we come together as, as the world starts to settle and the projects have traction, you start to see visibility into use cases, functionality. Some projects might not be, they have to kind of see more kind >>Of, not every feature is gonna be development. Oh. So I mean, you know, this is why you connect with truly brilliant people who can architect and distribute sequel database. Like who thought of that? It's amazing. It's as, as our friend >>You say, Well let me ask you a question before we wrap up, both by time, what is the secret of Kubernetes success? What made Kubernetes specifically successful? Was it timing? Was it the, the unambitious nature of it, the unification of it? Was it, what was the reason why is Kubernetes successful, right? And why nothing else? >>Well, you know what I'm gonna say? So I'm gonna let Dave >>First don't Jake, you go first. >>Oh boy. If we look at what was happening when Kubernetes first came out, it was, Mesosphere was kind of like the, the big player in the space. I think Kubernetes really, it had the backing from the right companies. It had the, you know, it had the credibility, it was sort of loosely based on Borg, but with the story of like, we've fixed everything that was broken in Borg. Yeah. And it's better now. Yeah. So I think it was just kind and, and obviously people were looking for a solution to this problem as they were going through their containerization journey. And I, yeah, I think it was just right >>Place, the timing consensus of hey, if we just let this happen, something good might come together for everybody. That's the way I felt. I >>Think it was right place, right time, right solution. And then it just kind of exploded when we were at Cores. Alex Povi, our ceo, he heard about Kubernetes and he was like, you know, we, we had a thing called Fleet D or we had a tool called Fleet. And he's like, Nope, we're all in on Kubernetes now. And that was an amazing Yeah, >>I remember that interview. >>I, amazing decision. >>Yeah, >>It's clear we can feel the shift. It's something that's come up a lot this week is is the commitment. Everybody's all in. People are ready for their transformation and Kubernetes is definitely gonna be the orchestrator that we're >>Leveraging. Yeah. And it's an amazing community. But it was, we got lucky that the, the foundational technology, I mean, you know, coming out of Google based on Go conferences, based on Go, it's no to coincidence that this sort of nature of, you know, pods horizontally, scalable, it's all fits together. I does make sense. Yeah. I mean, no offense to Python and some of the other technologies that were built in other languages, but Go is an awesome language. It's so, so innovative. Innovative things you could do with it. >>Awesome. Oh definitely. Jake, I'm very curious since we learned on the way and you are a Detroit native? >>I am. Yep. I grew up in the in Warren, which is just a suburb right outside of Detroit. >>So what does it mean to you as a Michigan born bloke to be here, see your entire community invade? >>It is, I grew up coming to the Detroit Auto Show in this very room >>That brought me to Detroit the first time. Love n a I a s. Been there with our friends at Ford just behind us. >>And it's just so interesting to me to see the accumulation, the accumulation of tech coming to Detroit cuz it's really not something that historically has been a huge presence. And I just love it. I love to see the activity out on the streets. I love to see all the restaurants and coffee shops full of people. Just, I might tear up. >>Well, I was wondering if it would give you a little bit of that hometown pride and also the joy of bringing your community together. I mean, this is merging your two probably most core communities. Yeah, >>Yeah. Your >>Youth and your, and your career. It doesn't get more personal than that really. Right. >>It's just been, it's been really exciting to see the energy. >>Well thanks for going on the queue. Thanks for sharing. Appreciate it. Thanks >>For having us. Yeah, thank you both so much. Lisa, you were a joy of ball of energy right when you walked up. Jake, what a compelling story. Really appreciate you sharing it with us. John, thanks for the banter and the fabulous questions. I'm >>Glad I could help out. >>Yeah, you do. A lot more than help out sweetheart. And to all of you watching the Cube today, thank you so much for joining us live from Detroit, the Cube Studios. My name is Savannah Peterson and we'll see you for our event wrap up next.

(upbeat music) >> Okay, we're back with Tim Yoakum, who is the Director of Engineering at Influx Data. Tim, welcome. Good to see you. >> Good to see you. Thanks for having me. >> You're really welcome. Listen, we've been covering open source software on the Cube for more than a decade, and we've kind of watched the innovation from the big data ecosystem, the cloud is being built out on open source, mobile social platforms, key databases, and of course Influx DB, and Influx Data has been a big consumer and contributor of open source software. So my question to you is where have you seen the biggest bang for the buck from open source software? >> So, yeah, you know, Influx, really, we thrive at the intersection of commercial services and open source software. So OSS keeps us on the cutting edge. We benefit from OSS in delivering our own service, from our core storage engine technologies to web services, templating engines. Our team stays lean and focused because we build on proven tools. We really build on the shoulders of giants. And like you've mentioned, even better, we contribute a lot back to the projects that we use as well as our own product, Influx DB. >> You know, but I got to ask you, Tim, because one of the challenge that we've seen, in particular, you saw this in the heyday of Hadoop. The innovations come so fast and furious, and as a software company, you got to place bets, you got to, you know, commit people, and sometimes those bets can be risky and not pay off. How have you managed this challenge? >> Oh, it moves fast, yeah. That's a benefit though, because the community moves so quickly that today's hot technology can be tomorrow's dinosaur. And what we tend to do is we fail fast and fail often. We try a lot of things. You know, you look at Kubernetes for example. That ecosystem is driven by thousands of intelligent developers, engineers, builders. They're adding value every day. So we have to really keep up with that. And as the stack changes, we try different technologies, we try different methods, and at the end of the day, we come up with a better platform as a result of just the constant change in the environment. It is a challenge for us, but it's something that we just do every day. >> So we have a survey partner down in New York City called Enterprise Technology Research, ETR, and they do these quarterly surveys of about 1500 CIOs, IT practitioners, and they really have a good pulse on what's happening with spending. And the data shows that containers generally, but specifically Kubernetes, is one of the areas that has kind of, it's been off the charts and seen the most significant adoption and velocity, particularly, you know, along with cloud. But really Kubernetes is just, you know, still up and to the right consistently, even with, you know the macro headwinds and all of the other stuff that we're sick of talking about. So what are you doing with Kubernetes in the platform? >> Yeah, it's really central to our ability to run the product. When we first started out, we were just on AWS, and the way we were running was a little bit like containers junior. Now we're running Kubernetes everywhere, at AWS, Azure, Google Cloud. It allows us to have a consistent experience across three different cloud providers, and we can manage that in code. So our developers can focus on delivering services, not trying to learn the intricacies of Amazon, Azure, and Google, and figure out how to deliver services on those three clouds with all of their differences. >> Just a follow up on that, is it, now, so I presume it sounds like there's a PaaS layer there to allow you guys to have a consistent experience across clouds and up to the edge, you know, wherever. Is that, is that correct? >> Yeah, so we've basically built, more or less, platform engineering. This is the new hot phrase. You know, Kubernetes has made a lot of things easy for us because we've built a platform that our developers can lean on, and they only have to learn one way of deploying their application, managing their application. And so that just gets all of the underlying infrastructure out of the way and lets them focus on delivering Influx Cloud. >> Yeah, and I know I'm taking a little bit of a tangent, but is that, I'll call it a PaaS layer if I can use that term, are there specific attributes to Influx DB, or is it kind of just generally off the shelf PaaS? You know, is there any purpose built capability there that is value add, or is it pretty much generic? >> So we really build, we look at things with a build versus buy, through a build versus buy lens. Some things we want to leverage, cloud provider services for instance, Postgres databases for metadata perhaps, get that off of our plate, let someone else run that. We're going to deploy a platform that our engineers can deliver on, that has consistency, that is all generated from code that we can, as an SRE group, as an ops team, that we can manage with very few people really, and we can stamp out clusters across multiple regions in no time. >> So how, so sometimes you build, sometimes you buy it. How do you make those decisions, and what does that mean for the platform and for customers? >> Yeah, so what we're doing is, it's like everybody else will do. We're looking for trade offs that make sense. You know, we really want to protect our customers' data. So we look for services that support our own software with the most uptime, reliability, and durability we can get. Some things are just going to be easier to have a cloud provider take care of on our behalf. We make that transparent for our own team. And of course for customers, you don't even see that, but we don't want to try to reinvent the wheel. Like I had had mentioned with SQL data storage for metadata perhaps. Let's build on top of what these three large cloud providers have already perfected, and we can then focus on our platform engineering, and we can have our developers then focus on the Influx Data software, Influx Cloud software. >> So take it to the customer level. What does it mean for them? What's the value that they're going to get out of all these innovations that we've been been talking about today? And what can they expect in the future? >> So first of all, people who use the OSS product are really going to be at home on our cloud platform. You can run it on your desktop machine, on a single server, what have you. But then you want to scale up. We have some 270 terabytes of data across over 4 billion series keys that people have stored. So there's a proven ability to scale. Now, in terms of the open source software, and how we've developed the platform, you're getting highly available, high cardinality time series platform. We manage it, and really as I mentioned earlier, we can keep up with the state of the art. We keep reinventing. We keep deploying things in real time. We deploy to our platform every day repeatedly, all the time. And it's that continuous deployment that allows us to continue testing things in flight, rolling things out that change, new features, better ways of doing deployments, safer ways of doing deployments. All of that happens behind the scenes. And we had mentioned earlier Kubernetes, I mean that allows us to get that done. We couldn't do it without having that platform as a base layer for us to then put our software on. So we iterate quickly. When you're on the Influx Cloud platform, you really are able to take advantage of new features immediately. We roll things out every day. And as those things go into production, you have the ability to use them. And so in the end, we want you to focus on getting actionable insights from your data instead of running infrastructure. You know, let us do that for you. >> And that makes sense, but so is the, are the innovations that we're talking about in the evolution of Influx DB, do you see that as sort of a natural evolution for existing customers? Is it, I'm sure the answer is both, but is it opening up new territory for customers? Can you add some color to that? >> Yeah, it really is. It's a little bit of both. Any engineer will say, well, it depends. So cloud native technologies are really the hot thing. IoT, industrial IoT especially, people want to just shove tons of data out there and be able to do queries immediately, and they don't want to manage infrastructure. What we've started to see are people that use the cloud service as their data store backbone, and then they use edge computing with our OSS product to ingest data from say multiple production lines and down-sample that data, send the rest of that data off to Influx Cloud where the heavy processing takes place. So really us being in all the different clouds and iterating on that, and being in all sorts of different regions allows for people to really get out of the business of trying to manage that big data, have us take care of that. And of course, as we change the platform, end users benefit from that immediately. >> And so obviously, taking away a lot of the heavy lifting for the infrastructure, would you say the same thing about security, especially as you go out to IoT and the edge? How should we be thinking about the value that you bring from a security perspective? >> Yeah, we take security super seriously. It's built into our DNA. We do a lot of work to ensure that our platform is secure, that the data we store is kept private. It's of course always a concern. You see in the news all the time companies being compromised. You know, that's something that you can have an entire team working on, which we do, to make sure that the data that you have, whether it's in transit, whether it's at rest, is always kept secure, is only viewable by you. You look at things like software bill of materials. If you're running this yourself, you have to go vet all sorts of different pieces of software. And we do that, you know, as we use new tools. That's something that's just part of our jobs, to make sure that the platform that we're running has fully vetted software. And with open source especially, that's a lot of work. And so it's definitely new territory. Supply chain attacks are definitely happening at a higher clip than they used to. But that is really just part of a day in the life for folks like us that are building platforms. >> Yeah, and that's key. I mean, especially when you start getting into the, you know, we talk about IoT and the operations technologies, the engineers running that infrastructure. You know, historically, as you know, Tim, they would air gap everything. That's how they kept it safe. But that's not feasible anymore. Everything's >> Can't do that. >> connected now, right? And so you've got to have a partner that is, again, take away that heavy lifting to R and D so you can focus on some of the other activities. All right. Give us the last word and the key takeaways from your perspective. >> Well, you know, from my perspective, I see it as a a two lane approach. With Influx, with any any time series data, you know, you've got a lot of stuff that you're going to run on-prem. What you mentioned, air gaping, sure there's plenty of need for that, but at the end of the day, people that don't want to run big data centers, people that want to entrust their data to a company that's got a full platform set up for them that they can build on, send that data over to the cloud. The cloud is not going away. I think a more hybrid approach is where the future lives, and that's what we're prepared for. >> Tim, really appreciate you coming to the program. Great stuff. Good to see you. >> Thanks very much. Appreciate it. >> Okay, in a moment, I'll be back to wrap up today's session. You're watching the Cube. (gentle music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> This past week we saw two of the Big 3 cloud providers present the latest update on their respective cloud visions, their business progress, their announcements and innovations. The content at these events had many overlapping themes, including modern cloud infrastructure at global scale, applying advanced machine intelligence, AKA AI, end-to-end data platforms, collaboration software. They talked a lot about the future of work automation. And they gave us a little taste, each company of the Metaverse Web 3.0 and much more. Despite these striking similarities, the differences between these two cloud platforms and that of AWS remains significant. With Microsoft leveraging its massive application software footprint to dominate virtually all markets and Google doing everything in its power to keep up with the frenetic pace of today's cloud innovation, which was set into motion a decade and a half ago by AWS. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we unpack the immense amount of content presented by the CEOs of Microsoft and Google Cloud at Microsoft Ignite and Google Cloud Next. We'll also quantify with ETR survey data the relative position of these two cloud giants in four key sectors: cloud IaaS, BI analytics, data platforms and collaboration software. Now one thing was clear this past week, hybrid events are the thing. Google Cloud Next took place live over a 24-hour period in six cities around the world, with the main gathering in New York City. Microsoft Ignite, which normally is attended by 30,000 people, had a smaller event in Seattle, in person with a virtual audience around the world. AWS re:Invent, of course, is much different. Yes, there's a virtual component at re:Invent, but it's all about a big live audience gathering the week after Thanksgiving, in the first week of December in Las Vegas. Regardless, Satya Nadella keynote address was prerecorded. It was highly produced and substantive. It was visionary, energetic with a strong message that Azure was a platform to allow customers to build their digital businesses. Doing more with less, which was a key theme of his. Nadella covered a lot of ground, starting with infrastructure from the compute, highlighting a collaboration with Arm-based, Ampere processors. New block storage, 60 regions, 175,000 miles of fiber cables around the world. He presented a meaningful multi-cloud message with Azure Arc to support on-prem and edge workloads, as well as of course the public cloud. And talked about confidential computing at the infrastructure level, a theme we hear from all cloud vendors. He then went deeper into the end-to-end data platform that Microsoft is building from the core data stores to analytics, to governance and the myriad tooling Microsoft offers. AI was next with a big focus on automation, AI, training models. He showed demos of machines coding and fixing code and machines automatically creating designs for creative workers and how Power Automate, Microsoft's RPA tooling, would combine with Microsoft Syntex to understand documents and provide standard ways for organizations to communicate with those documents. There was of course a big focus on Azure as developer cloud platform with GitHub Copilot as a linchpin using AI to assist coders in low-code and no-code innovations that are coming down the pipe. And another giant theme was a workforce transformation and how Microsoft is using its heritage and collaboration and productivity software to move beyond what Nadella called productivity paranoia, i.e., are remote workers doing their jobs? In a world where collaboration is built into intelligent workflows, and he even showed a glimpse of the future with AI-powered avatars and partnerships with Meta and Cisco with Teams of all firms. And finally, security with a bevy of tools from identity, endpoint, governance, et cetera, stressing a suite of tools from a single provider, i.e., Microsoft. So a couple points here. One, Microsoft is following in the footsteps of AWS with silicon advancements and didn't really emphasize that trend much except for the Ampere announcement. But it's building out cloud infrastructure at a massive scale, there is no debate about that. Its plan on data is to try and provide a somewhat more abstracted and simplified solutions, which differs a little bit from AWS's approach of the right database tool, for example, for the right job. Microsoft's automation play appears to provide simple individual productivity tools, kind of a ground up approach and make it really easy for users to drive these bottoms up initiatives. We heard from UiPath that forward five last month, a little bit of a different approach of horizontal automation, end-to-end across platforms. So quite a different play there. Microsoft's angle on workforce transformation is visionary and will continue to solidify in our view its dominant position with Teams and Microsoft 365, and it will drive cloud infrastructure consumption by default. On security as well as a cloud player, it has to have world-class security, and Azure does. There's not a lot of debate about that, but the knock on Microsoft is Patch Tuesday becomes Hack Wednesday because Microsoft releases so many patches, it's got so much Swiss cheese in its legacy estate and patching frequently, it becomes a roadmap and a trigger for hackers. Hey, patch Tuesday, these are all the exploits that you can go after so you can act before the patches are implemented. And so it's really become a problem for users. As well Microsoft is competing with many of the best-of-breed platforms like CrowdStrike and Okta, which have market momentum and appear to be more attractive horizontal plays for customers outside of just the Microsoft cloud. But again, it's Microsoft. They make it easy and very inexpensive to adopt. Now, despite the outstanding presentation by Satya Nadella, there are a couple of statements that should raise eyebrows. Here are two of them. First, as he said, Azure is the only cloud that supports all organizations and all workloads from enterprises to startups, to highly regulated industries. I had a conversation with Sarbjeet Johal about this, to make sure I wasn't just missing something and we were both surprised, somewhat, by this claim. I mean most certainly AWS supports more certifications for example, and we would think it has a reasonable case to dispute that claim. And the other statement, Nadella made, Azure is the only cloud provider enabling highly regulated industries to bring their most sensitive applications to the cloud. Now, reasonable people can debate whether AWS is there yet, but very clearly Oracle and IBM would have something to say about that statement. Now maybe it's not just, would say, "Oh, they're not real clouds, you know, they're just going to hosting in the cloud if you will." But still, when it comes to mission-critical applications, you would think Oracle is really the the leader there. Oh, and Satya also mentioned the claim that the Edge browser, the Microsoft Edge browser, no questions asked, he said, is the best browser for business. And we could see some people having some questions about that. Like isn't Edge based on Chrome? Anyway, so we just had to question these statements and challenge Microsoft to defend them because to us it's a little bit of BS and makes one wonder what else in such as awesome keynote and it was awesome, it was hyperbole. Okay, moving on to Google Cloud Next. The keynote started with Sundar Pichai doing a virtual session, he was remote, stressing the importance of Google Cloud. He mentioned that Google Cloud from its Q2 earnings was on a $25-billion annual run rate. What he didn't mention is that it's also on a 3.6 billion annual operating loss run rate based on its first half performance. Just saying. And we'll dig into that issue a little bit more later in this episode. He also stressed that the investments that Google has made to support its core business and search, like its global network of 22 subsea cables to support things like, YouTube video, great performance obviously that we all rely on, those innovations there. Innovations in BigQuery to support its search business and its threat analysis that it's always had and its AI, it's always been an AI-first company, he's stressed, that they're all leveraged by the Google Cloud Platform, GCP. This is all true by the way. Google has absolutely awesome tech and the talk, as well as his talk, Pichai, but also Kurian's was forward thinking and laid out a vision of the future. But it didn't address in our view, and I talked to Sarbjeet Johal about this as well, today's challenges to the degree that Microsoft did and we expect AWS will at re:Invent this year, it was more out there, more forward thinking, what's possible in the future, somewhat less about today's problem, so I think it's resonates less with today's enterprise players. Thomas Kurian then took over from Sundar Pichai and did a really good job of highlighting customers, and I think he has to, right? He has to say, "Look, we are in this game. We have customers, 9 out of the top 10 media firms use Google Cloud. 8 out of the top 10 manufacturers. 9 out of the top 10 retailers. Same for telecom, same for healthcare. 8 out of the top 10 retail banks." He and Sundar specifically referenced a number of companies, customers, including Avery Dennison, Groupe Renault, H&M, John Hopkins, Prudential, Minna Bank out of Japan, ANZ bank and many, many others during the session. So you know, they had some proof points and you got to give 'em props for that. Now like Microsoft, Google talked about infrastructure, they referenced training processors and regions and compute optionality and storage and how new workloads were emerging, particularly data-driven workloads in AI that required new infrastructure. He explicitly highlighted partnerships within Nvidia and Intel. I didn't see anything on Arm, which somewhat surprised me 'cause I believe Google's working on that or at least has come following in AWS's suit if you will, but maybe that's why they're not mentioning it or maybe I got to do more research there, but let's park that for a minute. But again, as we've extensively discussed in Breaking Analysis in our view when it comes to compute, AWS via its Annapurna acquisition is well ahead of the pack in this area. Arm is making its way into the enterprise, but all three companies are heavily investing in infrastructure, which is great news for customers and the ecosystem. We'll come back to that. Data and AI go hand in hand, and there was no shortage of data talk. Google didn't mention Snowflake or Databricks specifically, but it did mention, by the way, it mentioned Mongo a couple of times, but it did mention Google's, quote, Open Data cloud. Now maybe Google has used that term before, but Snowflake has been marketing the data cloud concept for a couple of years now. So that struck as a shot across the bow to one of its partners and obviously competitor, Snowflake. At BigQuery is a main centerpiece of Google's data strategy. Kurian talked about how they can take any data from any source in any format from any cloud provider with BigQuery Omni and aggregate and understand it. And with the support of Apache Iceberg and Delta and Hudi coming in the future and its open Data Cloud Alliance, they talked a lot about that. So without specifically mentioning Snowflake or Databricks, Kurian co-opted a lot of messaging from these two players, such as life and tech. Kurian also talked about Google Workspace and how it's now at 8 million users up from 6 million just two years ago. There's a lot of discussion on developer optionality and several details on tools supported and the open mantra of Google. And finally on security, Google brought out Kevin Mandian, he's a CUBE alum, extremely impressive individual who's CEO of Mandiant, a leading security service provider and consultancy that Google recently acquired for around 5.3 billion. They talked about moving from a shared responsibility model to a shared fate model, which is again, it's kind of a shot across AWS's bow, kind of shared responsibility model. It's unclear that Google will pay the same penalty if a customer doesn't live up to its portion of the shared responsibility, but we can probably assume that the customer is still going to bear the brunt of the pain, nonetheless. Mandiant is really interesting because it's a services play and Google has stated that it is not a services company, it's going to give partners in the channel plenty of room to play. So we'll see what it does with Mandiant. But Mandiant is a very strong enterprise capability and in the single most important area security. So interesting acquisition by Google. Now as well, unlike Microsoft, Google is not competing with security leaders like Okta and CrowdStrike. Rather, it's partnering aggressively with those firms and prominently putting them forth. All right. Let's get into the ETR survey data and see how Microsoft and Google are positioned in four key markets that we've mentioned before, IaaS, BI analytics, database data platforms and collaboration software. First, let's look at the IaaS cloud. ETR is just about to release its October survey, so I cannot share the that data yet. I can only show July data, but we're going to give you some directional hints throughout this conversation. This chart shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and overlap or presence in the data, i.e., how pervasive the platform is. That's on the horizontal axis. And we've inserted the Wikibon estimates of IaaS revenue for the companies, the Big 3. Actually the Big 4, we included Alibaba. So a couple of points in this somewhat busy data chart. First, Microsoft and AWS as always are dominant on both axes. The red dotted line there at 40% on the vertical axis. That represents a highly elevated spending velocity and all of the Big 3 are above the line. Now at the same time, GCP is well behind the two leaders on the horizontal axis and you can see that in the table insert as well in our revenue estimates. Now why is Azure bigger in the ETR survey when AWS is larger according to the Wikibon revenue estimates? And the answer is because Microsoft with products like 365 and Teams will often be considered by respondents in the survey as cloud by customers, so they fit into that ETR category. But in the insert data we're stripping out applications and SaaS from Microsoft and Google and we're only isolating on IaaS. The other point is when you take a look at the early October returns, you see downward pressure as signified by those dotted arrows on every name. The only exception was Dell, or Dell and IBM, which showing slightly improved momentum. So the survey data generally confirms what we know that AWS and Azure have a massive lead and strong momentum in the marketplace. But the real story is below the line. Unlike Google Cloud, which is on pace to lose well over 3 billion on an operating basis this year, AWS's operating profit is around $20 billion annually. Microsoft's Intelligent Cloud generated more than $30 billion in operating income last fiscal year. Let that sink in for a moment. Now again, that's not to say Google doesn't have traction, it does and Kurian gave some nice proof points and customer examples in his keynote presentation, but the data underscores the lead that Microsoft and AWS have on Google in cloud. And here's a breakdown of ETR's proprietary net score methodology, that vertical axis that we showed you in the previous chart. It asks customers, are you adopting the platform new? That's that lime green. Are you spending 6% or more? That's the forest green. Is you're spending flat? That's the gray. Is you're spending down 6% or worse? That's the pinkest color. Or are you replacing the platform, defecting? That's the bright red. You subtract the reds from the greens and you get a net score. Now one caveat here, which actually is really favorable from Microsoft, the Microsoft data that we're showing here is across the entire Microsoft portfolio. The other point is, this is July data, we'll have an update for you once ETR releases its October results. But we're talking about meaningful samples here, the ends. 620 for AWS over a thousand from Microsoft in more than 450 respondents in the survey for Google. So the real tell is replacements, that bright red. There is virtually no churn for AWS and Microsoft, but Google's churn is 5x, those two in the survey. Now 5% churn is not high, but you'd like to see three things for Google given it's smaller size. One is less churn, two is much, much higher adoption rates in the lime green. Three is a higher percentage of those spending more, the forest green. And four is a lower percentage of those spending less. And none of these conditions really applies here for Google. GCP is still not growing fast enough in our opinion, and doesn't have nearly the traction of the two leaders and that shows up in the survey data. All right, let's look at the next sector, BI analytics. Here we have that same XY dimension. Again, Microsoft dominating the picture. AWS very strong also in both axes. Tableau, very popular and respectable of course acquired by Salesforce on the vertical axis, still looking pretty good there. And again on the horizontal axis, big presence there for Tableau. And Google with Looker and its other platforms is also respectable, but it again, has some work to do. Now notice Streamlit, that's a recent Snowflake acquisition. It's strong in the vertical axis and because of Snowflake's go-to-market (indistinct), it's likely going to move to the right overtime. Grafana is also prominent in the Y axis, but a glimpse at the most recent survey data shows them slightly declining while Looker actually improves a bit. As does Cloudera, which we'll move up slightly. Again, Microsoft just blows you away, doesn't it? All right, now let's get into database and data platform. Same X Y dimensions, but now database and data warehouse. Snowflake as usual takes the top spot on the vertical axis and it is actually keeps moving to the right as well with again, Microsoft and AWS is dominant in the market, as is Oracle on the X axis, albeit it's got less spending velocity, but of course it's the database king. Google is well behind on the X axis but solidly above the 40% line on the vertical axis. Note that virtually all platforms will see pressure in the next survey due to the macro environment. Microsoft might even dip below the 40% line for the first time in a while. Lastly, let's look at the collaboration and productivity software market. This is such an important area for both Microsoft and Google. And just look at Microsoft with 365 and Teams up into the right. I mean just so impressive in ubiquitous. And we've highlighted Google. It's in the pack. It certainly is a nice base with 174 N, which I can tell you that N will rise in the next survey, which is an indication that more people are adopting. But given the investment and the tech behind it and all the AI and Google's resources, you'd really like to see Google in this space above the 40% line, given the importance of this market, of this collaboration area to Google's success and the degree to which they emphasize it in their pitch. And look, this brings up something that we've talked about before on Breaking Analysis. Google doesn't have a tech problem. This is a go-to-market and marketing challenge that Google faces and it's up against two go-to-market champs and Microsoft and AWS. And Google doesn't have the enterprise sales culture. It's trying, it's making progress, but it's like that racehorse that has all the potential in the world, but it's just missing some kind of key ingredient to put it over at the top. It's always coming in third, (chuckles) but we're watching and Google's obviously, making some investments as we shared with earlier. All right. Some final thoughts on what we learned this week and in this research: customers and partners should be thrilled that both Microsoft and Google along with AWS are spending so much money on innovation and building out global platforms. This is a gift to the industry and we should be thankful frankly because it's good for business, it's good for competitiveness and future innovation as a platform that can be built upon. Now we didn't talk much about multi-cloud, we haven't even mentioned supercloud, but both Microsoft and Google have a story that resonates with customers in cross cloud capabilities, unlike AWS at this time. But we never say never when it comes to AWS. They sometimes and oftentimes surprise you. One of the other things that Sarbjeet Johal and John Furrier and I have discussed is that each of the Big 3 is positioning to their respective strengths. AWS is the best IaaS. Microsoft is building out the kind of, quote, we-make-it-easy-for-you cloud, and Google is trying to be the open data cloud with its open-source chops and excellent tech. And that puts added pressure on Snowflake, doesn't it? You know, Thomas Kurian made some comments according to CRN, something to the effect that, we are the only company that can do the data cloud thing across clouds, which again, if I'm being honest is not really accurate. Now I haven't clarified these statements with Google and often things get misquoted, but there's little question that, as AWS has done in the past with Redshift, Google is taking a page out of Snowflake, Databricks as well. A big difference in the Big 3 is that AWS doesn't have this big emphasis on the up-the-stack collaboration software that both Microsoft and Google have, and that for Microsoft and Google will drive captive IaaS consumption. AWS obviously does some of that in database, a lot of that in database, but ISVs that compete with Microsoft and Google should have a greater affinity, one would think, to AWS for competitive reasons. and the same thing could be said in security, we would think because, as I mentioned before, Microsoft competes very directly with CrowdStrike and Okta and others. One of the big thing that Sarbjeet mentioned that I want to call out here, I'd love to have your opinion. AWS specifically, but also Microsoft with Azure have successfully created what Sarbjeet calls brand distance. AWS from the Amazon Retail, and even though AWS all the time talks about Amazon X and Amazon Y is in their product portfolio, but you don't really consider it part of the retail organization 'cause it's not. Azure, same thing, has created its own identity. And it seems that Google still struggles to do that. It's still very highly linked to the sort of core of Google. Now, maybe that's by design, but for enterprise customers, there's still some potential confusion with Google, what's its intentions? How long will they continue to lose money and invest? Are they going to pull the plug like they do on so many other tools? So you know, maybe some rethinking of the marketing there and the positioning. Now we didn't talk much about ecosystem, but it's vital for any cloud player, and Google again has some work to do relative to the leaders. Which brings us to supercloud. The ecosystem and end customers are now in a position this decade to digitally transform. And we're talking here about building out their own clouds, not by putting in and building data centers and installing racks of servers and storage devices, no. Rather to build value on top of the hyperscaler gift that has been presented. And that is a mega trend that we're watching closely in theCUBE community. While there's debate about the supercloud name and so forth, there little question in our minds that the next decade of cloud will not be like the last. All right, we're going to leave it there today. Many thanks to Sarbjeet Johal, and my business partner, John Furrier, for their input to today's episode. Thanks to Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast and Ken Schiffman as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight helped get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our editor in chief over at SiliconANGLE, who does some wonderful editing. And check out SiliconANGLE, a lot of coverage on Google Cloud Next and Microsoft Ignite. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcast wherever you listen. Just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And you can always get in touch with me via email, david.vellante@siliconangle.com or you can DM me at dvellante or comment on my LinkedIn posts. And please do check out etr.ai, the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for the CUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) (logo crystals tingle) >> Hi, everybody, welcome back to FalCon22, I'm Dave Vellante and you're watching theCube's continuous coverage, this is day two. We live in an API economy, but APIs, you know, they're sometimes vulnerable, Michael Nicosia is here, he's the Chief Operating Officer and co-founder of Salt Security, API Security Specialist, Michael, welcome to theCUBE, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much, Dave, glad to be here. >> You're very welcome. Why did you and your co-founder, is it Roy? >> Yeah. >> Why did you guys start Salt Security? >> So really easy, I mean, as you mentioned, the proliferation of APIs constantly is growing on a year to year basis. So in 2015, when he and I met, we had this idea that it was going to continue to grow and APIs were going to be critical to every organization from an innovation perspective, from a safety perspective and we thought that current tools out there couldn't protect against the new threat vector that we thought was going to happen. And, you know, you fast forward to 2022 and here we are, it's the largest growing threat vector from an API perspective because APIs are just growing like crazy. >> Right. Well, let's talk about the news, CrowdStrike made an investment in your company. >> Michael: Yes. >> Congratulations. >> Michael: Thank you. >> Tell us about that, why it's important, and to have a strategic partner like that. >> Yeah, so first of all, we're super thrilled about the partnership, I mean, it's amazing. And not only the partnership, the strategic investment for us just signifies the importance of our two companies in terms of what we want to do in the field together or in the market together. So the strategic investment is amazing, the partnership is even more amazing just because it's kind of like, you know, the first in its class from an API security perspective, we've got partners from the cloud providers and then the only other partnerships really have is with API Management vendors. So this is unique in that it goes outside the security ecosystem to provide this partnership and the nice thing about it is it's exclusive, excuse me, and it just continues to validate the leadership where we have an API security, as well as obviously a leadership that CrowdStrike has. >> Exclusive in the sense that CrowdStrike's not going to invest in another API competitor and you're not going to take investment from an endpoint- >> Michael: Exactly. >> Or something like that. >> Endpoint or, you know, really cloud workload situation. >> Anything within that vastly expanding portfolio. >> Michael: Exactly. >> So pretty much anybody. >> Michael: Exactly. >> Except network security, from what I saw in the keynote yesterday, that's sort of on the table, for now. So, okay, so why should customers care about this? What's the benefit to them? >> Yeah, so if you think about, the security profile of organizations and where they seem to have potential risk, threat vectors, you know, endpoint, you know, Cloud obviously API becomes a bigger, threat vector as well. So I think the partnership just solidifies the fact that we want to create a better security profile for organizations and we want to make it safe for them to innovate and continue to do what they do. So I think that's the importance and when you put the two together it just creates a larger value proposition, more stickiness from end point to cloud, to APIs. >> So we have a partner, theCUBE, and in New York city and it's called ETR and they do quarterly surveys of CISOs, CIOs, IT buyers, about 12 to 1500 a quarter. And so I was chatting with those guys last week, they knew we were going to be at CrowdStrike and so they ran some data for all the API security vendors and you guys were, you know they had like the Gartner Magic Quadrant but it's not, you know, vision and execution, it's spending momentum and like presence in their survey, it's like market share, mind share. >> Sure. >> You guys were up and to the right, like, way, way, way ahead, I presume that's why you got the attention of CrowdStrike. I found their data set to be incredibly good, that's how we found CrowdStrike years ago, like, "Wow, who's this company?" >> Yeah. >> You know, companies like CrowdStrike, Okta, Zscaler, Snowflake Off The Charts, but you guys were really noticeable. Talk about the spending momentum you're seeing with customers, where's that coming from? >> Yeah, I mean look, for us it's a continuing growing market, it's accelerating and we're still in the, you know, early stages of the market, which is amazing. But if you think about what organizations do, they innovate, right, they innovate through, you know, software, through applications or APIs. So if you think about, you know, how do they continue to innovate safely? They need a solution, like Salt Security to protect from any bad actors that could potentially create any breaches, vulnerabilities. So I think that that's why CISOs in particular are super excited about talking to us, making sure that they have all of their bases covered especially when it comes to applications that they have within their organization, which continues to grow. >> And not to not to be a methodology geek, but the methodology they use is to essentially say, is a customer spending more or less, they subtract the lesses from the mores and that's what you're left with. And one of the lesses is churn, and if you have high churn, you're spending momentum, >> you know- >> Micheal: Yeah. >> In their methodology goes into the tank. So you have obviously admitted you have very low churn is that what you're saying in the field? >> Micheal: Absolutely. >> Why is that? >> Yeah, I mean, again, I think it's, it goes back to the value that we bring to customers. I think, you know, our solution works, we're the only AI/ML-based solution with deep context so we can really take a closer granular look at the APIs, model those APIs, create a baseline and really protect against them. So I mean, our solution works and it works really well and I think we provide value in that, you know, CISOs don't have to worry about any bad actors trying to infiltrate their applications 'cause they know that Salt Security is there protecting them. >> I know you're not the tech guy but you're the founder, co-founder of a technology company so you got to be conversant in the tech, 'cause this is the way it is in our business, so tell us about the tech, what's so cool about it? What's the differentiation? >> Yeah, I guess, and I mentioned that it's really AI/ML based, you know, we leverage big data and it's really the context associated to that, which means that, you know, we can get into granular details of really baselining the API itself. And what we do really well is, because these are unique attacks and these attacks could be days, weeks, months and we're the only vendor that, that can really correlate across that timeline because of the context-based big data that we leverage to be able to, you know, spot these potential bad actors that we look for. >> And all this happens in the cloud or? >> Absolutely, it's all... >> You have a server in your office? >> No, no, it's all it's a hundred percent SaaS-based, Cloud-based solution, I think that's one of the reasons why the partnership with CrowdStrike is so amazing as well. >> Talk a little bit more about the synergies between CrowdStrike and Salt Security. >> Tons of synergies, I mean, if you think about from, you know, from the part of being a little fluffy culture, the two companies have similar cultures, we go after similar you know, first Cloud, innovative companies. If you think about kind of the technology that CrowdStrike has put forth, revolutionized the endpoint security, and now moving into the Cloud, you know, leveraging AI and ML, we're doing the exact same thing so I think there's a lot of synergies associated with that. And again, the final point that I'll make is that you know, we think together the, you know, better together story is, resonates just because if you think about all of the areas that you know have potential breaches, these threats, we kind of cover 'em all with the partnership. >> When I talk to a founding, you know, co-founder, who's a go to market pro, I like to ask them how did you know when to scale? I mean, you got to have product market fit, I see so many companies failing because they try to go to market before they have, they try to scale go to market before they have product market, but how did you do it? How did you know when to scale? >> You know, it's tricky, and you got to look at a couple of, you know, factors, you got to look at the market, you got to look at, you know, how much potential opportunity exists and you really need to look at, the momentum that is being established. You know, when you talk to CISOs, kind of, you know, talking to them about projects and how, how they prioritize projects and where API security fits, you know, once it begins to be the top three and you start that momentum and obviously you bringing in the revenue. I think that those are signs that we see, that we say, "Okay, we need to double down on making sure we've got coverage across the world in order for us to support demand." >> And you were the first sales rep, right? >> Michael: Yeah. >> Okay. >> Roy and I, I was the first AE, here was the first SE. >> Okay, but your early go-to market pros are probably different than what you're bringing in today, you didn't have, you know, a lot of BDRs at the time, but you guys were hands on consultants- >> Absolutely. >> Like sort of process consultants, sales folks, right? And then you codify that when you're ready to scale and now you're, is that kind of a, what you're doing? >> Absolutely, I mean, you nailed it, I mean, it's in the early stages, it's validating that there's a problem that exists in the market and how important is that problem, you know, to CISOs. So when we first started we met probably about 50 CISOs where we just had that conversation, not about sales, it was more about, "Hey we just want to talk to you about a problem we think exists in the market, love to get your reaction on that problem and then obviously how you're solving that problem and how much of a priority is that problem," How important is it to you? And then once you have those discussions then you can really find those individuals, early adopters if you will, that are ready to buy and then it kind of proliferates from there. >> And then you have a CRO , I presume, right? So what was that like finding him or her, is a really important first sales hire. >> Super important, yeah. >> How did you go about that? How long did it take? >> Yeah so it took about six to eight months and you know it's really tough because, you know, we look at cultural fit, above everything else. So it's not, that, "Can they do the job?" it's culturally, do they fit in? And you know, how much can that individual scale the organization? So there's a lot of factors associated, there's a lot of individuals associated to, you know with the interview process. So that's how we looked at it and obviously we wanted somebody that had experience in a company our size, was able to scale it and so on. The one tricky thing is, and I'll tell you this, is, you know, for Roy and I, you kind of have to let go a little bit, that was really tough, so knowing that you need to do that is something that- >> A little bit of founderitis? >> Micheal: Yeah. >> Dave: It's hard, right? >> Micheal: It's hard. >> Dave: Yeah, it's your baby. >> It's like, whaat? >> I get it, Michael, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE, congratulations on the news- >> Thank you Dave. >> The investment and good luck. >> Awesome, thank you so much, appreciate it. >> You're really welcome. All right, keep it right there, we'll be back right after this short break. Dave Vellante for theCUBE at FalCon22, CrowdStrike's big user event, we'll be right back. (cheerful bouncy music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase. This is season two, episode four of the ongoing series covering the exciting hot startups from the AWS ecosystem. Here we're talking about cybersecurity in this episode. I'm your host, John Furrier here we're excited to have CUBE alumni who's back Snehal Antani who's the CEO and co-founder of Horizon3.ai talking about exploitable weaknesses and vulnerabilities with autonomous pen testing. Snehal, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming back. >> Likewise, John. I think it's been about five years since you and I were on the stage together. And I've missed it, but I'm glad to see you again. >> Well, before we get into the showcase about your new startup, that's extremely successful, amazing margins, great product. You have a unique journey. We talked about this prior to you doing the journey, but you have a great story. You left the startup world to go into the startup, like world of self defense, public defense, NSA. What group did you go to in the public sector became a private partner. >> My background, I'm a software engineer by education and trade. I started my career at IBM. I was a CIO at GE Capital, and I think we met once when I was there and I became the CTO of Splunk. And we spent a lot of time together when I was at Splunk. And at the end of 2017, I decided to take a break from industry and really kind of solve problems that I cared deeply about and solve problems that mattered. So I left industry and joined the US Special Operations Community and spent about four years in US Special Operations, where I grew more personally and professionally than in anything I'd ever done in my career. And exited that time, met my co-founder in special ops. And then as he retired from the air force, we started Horizon3. >> So there's really, I want to bring that up one, 'cause it's fascinating that not a lot of people in Silicon Valley and tech would do that. So thanks for the service. And I know everyone who's out there in the public sector knows that this is a really important time for the tactical edge in our military, a lot of things going on around the world. So thanks for the service and a great journey. But there's a storyline with the company you're running now that you started. I know you get the jacket on there. I noticed get a little military vibe to it. Cybersecurity, I mean, every company's on their own now. They have to build their own militia. There is no government supporting companies anymore. There's no militia. No one's on the shores of our country defending the citizens and the companies, they got to offend for themselves. So every company has to have their own military. >> In many ways, you don't see anti-aircraft rocket launchers on top of the JP Morgan building in New York City because they rely on the government for air defense. But in cyber it's very different. Every company is on their own to defend for themselves. And what's interesting is this blend. If you look at the Ukraine, Russia war, as an example, a thousand companies have decided to withdraw from the Russian economy and those thousand companies we should expect to be in the ire of the Russian government and their proxies at some point. And so it's not just those companies, but their suppliers, their distributors. And it's no longer about cyber attack for extortion through ransomware, but rather cyber attack for punishment and retaliation for leaving. Those companies are on their own to defend themselves. There's no government that is dedicated to supporting them. So yeah, the reality is that cybersecurity, it's the burden of the organization. And also your attack surface has expanded to not just be your footprint, but if an adversary wants to punish you for leaving their economy, they can get, if you're in agriculture, they could disrupt your ability to farm or they could get all your fruit to spoil at the border 'cause they disrupted your distributors and so on. So I think the entire world is going to change over the next 18 to 24 months. And I think this idea of cybersecurity is going to become truly a national problem and a problem that breaks down any corporate barriers that we see in previously. >> What are some of the things that inspired you to start this company? And I loved your approach of thinking about the customer, your customer, as defending themselves in context to threats, really leaning into it, being ready and able to defend. Horizon3 has a lot of that kind of military thinking for the good of the company. What's the motivation? Why this company? Why now? What's the value proposition? >> So there's two parts to why the company and why now. The first part was what my observation, when I left industry realm or my military background is watching "Jack Ryan" and "Tropic Thunder" and I didn't come from the military world. And so when I entered the special operations community, step one was to keep my mouth shut, learn, listen, and really observe and understand what made that community so impressive. And obviously the people and it's not about them being fast runners or great shooters or awesome swimmers, but rather there are learn-it-alls that can solve any problem as a team under pressure, which is the exact culture you want to have in any startup, early stage companies are learn-it-alls that can solve any problem under pressure as a team. So I had this immediate advantage when we started Horizon3, where a third of Horizon3 employees came from that special operations community. So one is this awesome talent. But the second part that, I remember this quote from a special operations commander that said we use live rounds in training because if we used fake rounds or rubber bullets, everyone would act like metal of honor winners. And the whole idea there is you train like you fight, you build that muscle memory for crisis and response and so on upfront. So when you're in the thick of it, you already know how to react. And this aligns to a pain I had in industry. I had no idea I was secure until the bad guy showed up. I had no idea if I was fixing the right vulnerabilities, logging the right data in Splunk, or if my CrowdStrike EDR platform was configured correctly, I had to wait for the bad guys to show up. I didn't know if my people knew how to respond to an incident. So what I wanted to do was proactively verify my security posture, proactively harden my systems. I needed to do that by continuously pen testing myself or continuously testing my security posture. And there just wasn't any way to do that where an IT admin or a network engineer could in three clicks have the power of a 20 year pen testing expert. And that was really what we set out to do, not build a autonomous pen testing platform for security people, build it so that anybody can quickly test their security posture and then use the output to fix problems that truly matter. >> So the value preposition, if I get this right is, there's a lot of companies out there doing pen tests. And I know I hate pen tests. They're like, cause you do DevOps, it changes you got to do another pen test. So it makes sense to do autonomous pen testing. So congratulations on seeing that that's obvious to that, but a lot of other have consulting tied to it. Which seems like you need to train someone and you guys taking a different approach. >> Yeah, we actually, as a company have zero consulting, zero professional services. And the whole idea is that build a true software as a service offering where an intern, in fact, we've got a video of a nine year old that in three clicks can run pen tests against themselves. And because of that, you can wire pen tests into your DevOps tool chain. You can run multiple pen tests today. In fact, I've got customers running 40, 50 pen tests a month against their organization. And that what that does is completely lowers the barrier of entry for being able to verify your posture. If you have consulting on average, when I was a CIO, it was at least a three month lead time to schedule consultants to show up and then they'd show up, they'd embarrass the security team, they'd make everyone look bad, 'cause they're going to get in, leave behind a report. And that report was almost identical to what they found last year because the older that report, the one the date itself gets stale, the context changes and so on. And then eventually you just don't even bother fixing it. Or if you fix a problem, you don't have the skills to verify that has been fixed. So I think that consulting led model was acceptable when you viewed security as a compliance checkbox, where once a year was sufficient to meet your like PCI requirements. But if you're really operating with a wartime mindset and you actually need to harden and secure your environment, you've got to be running pen test regularly against your organization from different perspectives, inside, outside, from the cloud, from work, from home environments and everything in between. >> So for the CISOs out there, for the CSOs and the CXOs, what's the pitch to them because I see your jacket that says Horizon3 AI, trust but verify. But this trust is, but is canceled out, just as verify. What's the product that you guys are offering the service. Describe what it is and why they should look at it. >> Yeah, sure. So one, when I back when I was the CIO, don't tell me we're secure in PowerPoint. Show me we're secure right now. Show me we're secure again tomorrow. And then show me we're secure again next week because my environment is constantly changing and the adversary always has a vote and they're always evolving. And this whole idea of show me we're secure. Don't trust that your security tools are working, verify that they can detect and respond and stifle an attack and then verify tomorrow, verify next week. That's the big mind shift. Now what we do is-- >> John: How do they respond to that by the way? Like they don't believe you at first or what's the story. >> I think, there's actually a very bifurcated response. There are still a decent chunk of CIOs and CSOs that have a security is a compliance checkbox mindset. So my attitude with them is I'm not going to convince you. You believe it's a checkbox. I'll just wait for you to get breached and sell to your replacement, 'cause you'll get fired. And in the meantime, I spend all my energy with those that actually care about proactively securing and hardening their environments. >> That's true. People do get fired. Can you give an example of what you're saying about this environment being ready, proving that you're secure today, tomorrow and a few weeks out. Give me an example. >> Of, yeah, I'll give you actually a customer example. There was a healthcare organization and they had about 5,000 hosts in their environment and they did everything right. They had Fortinet as their EDR platform. They had user behavior analytics in place that they had purchased and tuned. And when they ran a pen test self-service, our product node zero immediately started to discover every host on the network. It then fingerprinted all those hosts and found it was able to get code execution on three machines. So it got code execution, dumped credentials, laterally maneuvered, and became a domain administrator, which in IT, if an attacker becomes a domain admin, they've got keys to the kingdom. So at first the question was, how did the node zero pen test become domain admin? How'd they get code execution, Fortinet should have detected and stopped it. Well, it turned out Fortinet was misconfigured on three boxes out of 5,000. And these guys had no idea and it's just automation that went wrong and so on. And now they would've only known they had misconfigured their EDR platform on three hosts if the attacker had showed up. The second question though was, why didn't they catch the lateral movement? Which all their marketing brochures say they're supposed to catch. And it turned out that that customer purchased the wrong Fortinet modules. One again, they had no idea. They thought they were doing the right thing. So don't trust just installing your tools is good enough. You've got to exercise and verify them. We've got tons of stories from patches that didn't actually apply to being able to find the AWS admin credentials on a local file system. And then using that to log in and take over the cloud. In fact, I gave this talk at Black Hat on war stories from running 10,000 pen tests. And that's just the reality is, you don't know that these tools and processes are working for you until the bad guys have shown. >> The velocities there. You can accelerate through logs, you know from the days you've been there. This is now the threat. Being, I won't say lazy, but just not careful or just not thinking. >> Well, I'll do an example. We have a lot of customers that are Horizon3 customers and Splunk customers. And what you'll see their behavior is, is they'll have Horizon3 up on one screen. And every single attacker command executed with its timestamp is up on that screen. And then look at Splunk and say, hey, we were able to dump vCenter credentials from VMware products at this time on this host, what did Splunk see or what didn't they see? Why were no logs generated? And it turns out that they had some logging blind spots. So what they'll actually do is run us to almost like stimulate the defensive tools and then see what did the tools catch? What did they miss? What are those blind spots and how do they fix it. >> So your price called node zero. You mentioned that. Is that specifically a suite, a tool, a platform. How do people consume and engage with you guys? >> So the way that we work, the whole product is designed to be self-service. So once again, while we have a sales team, the whole intent is you don't need to have to talk to a sales rep to start using the product, you can log in right now, go to Horizon3.ai, you can run a trial log in with your Google ID, your LinkedIn ID, start running pen test against your home or against your network against this organization right now, without talking to anybody. The whole idea is self-service, run a pen test in three clicks and give you the power of that 20 year pen testing expert. And then what'll happen is node zero will execute and then it'll provide to you a full report of here are all of the different paths or attack paths or sequences where we are able to become an admin in your environment. And then for every attack path, here is the path or the kill chain, the proof of exploitation for every step along the way. Here's exactly what you've got to do to fix it. And then once you've fixed it, here's how you verify that you've truly fixed the problem. And this whole aha moment is run us to find problems. You fix them, rerun us to verify that the problem has been fixed. >> Talk about the company, how many people do you have and get some stats? >> Yeah, so we started writing code in January of 2020, right before the pandemic hit. And then about 10 months later at the end of 2020, we launched the first version of the product. We've been in the market for now about two and a half years total from start of the company till present. We've got 130 employees. We've got more customers than we do employees, which is really cool. And instead our customers shift from running one pen test a year to 40, 50 pen test. >> John: And it's full SaaS. >> The whole product is full SaaS. So no consulting, no pro serve. You run as often as you-- >> Who's downloading, who's buying the product. >> What's amazing is, we have customers in almost every section or sector now. So we're not overly rotated towards like healthcare or financial services. We've got state and local education or K through 12 education, state and local government, a number of healthcare companies, financial services, manufacturing. We've got organizations that large enterprises. >> John: Security's diverse. >> It's very diverse. >> I mean, ransomware must be a big driver. I mean, is that something that you're seeing a lot. >> It is. And the thing about ransomware is, if you peel back the outcome of ransomware, which is extortion, at the end of the day, what ransomware organizations or criminals or APTs will do is they'll find out who all your employees are online. They will then figure out if you've got 7,000 employees, all it takes is one of them to have a bad password. And then attackers are going to credential spray to find that one person with a bad password or whose Netflix password that's on the dark web is also their same password to log in here, 'cause most people reuse. And then from there they're going to most likely in your organization, the domain user, when you log in, like you probably have local admin on your laptop. If you're a windows machine and I've got local admin on your laptop, I'm going to be able to dump credentials, get the admin credentials and then start to laterally maneuver. Attackers don't have to hack in using zero days like you see in the movies, often they're logging in with valid user IDs and passwords that they've found and collected from somewhere else. And then they make that, they maneuver by making a low plus a low equal a high. And the other thing in financial services, we spend all of our time fixing critical vulnerabilities, attackers know that. So they've adapted to finding ways to chain together, low priority vulnerabilities and misconfigurations and dangerous defaults to become admin. So while we've over rotated towards just fixing the highs and the criticals attackers have adapted. And once again they have a vote, they're always evolving their tactics. >> And how do you prevent that from happening? >> So we actually apply those same tactics. Rarely do we actually need a CVE to compromise your environment. We will harvest credentials, just like an attacker. We will find misconfigurations and dangerous defaults, just like an attacker. We will combine those together. We'll make use of exploitable vulnerabilities as appropriate and use that to compromise your environment. So the tactics that, in many ways we've built a digital weapon and the tactics we apply are the exact same tactics that are applied by the adversary. >> So you guys basically simulate hacking. >> We actually do the hacking. Simulate means there's a fakeness to it. >> So you guys do hack. >> We actually compromise. >> Like sneakers the movie, those sneakers movie for the old folks like me. >> And in fact that was my inspiration. I've had this idea for over a decade now, which is I want to be able to look at anything that laptop, this Wi-Fi network, gear in hospital or a truck driving by and know, I can figure out how to gain initial access, rip that environment apart and be able to opponent. >> Okay, Chuck, he's not allowed in the studio anymore. (laughs) No, seriously. Some people are exposed. I mean, some companies don't have anything. But there's always passwords or so most people have that argument. Well, there's nothing to protect here. Not a lot of sensitive data. How do you respond to that? Do you see that being kind of putting the head in the sand or? >> Yeah, it's actually, it's less, there's not sensitive data, but more we've installed or applied multifactor authentication, attackers can't get in now. Well MFA only applies or does not apply to lower level protocols. So I can find a user ID password, log in through SMB, which isn't protected by multifactor authentication and still upon your environment. So unfortunately I think as a security industry, we've become very good at giving a false sense of security to organizations. >> John: Compliance drives that behavior. >> Compliance drives that. And what we need. Back to don't tell me we're secure, show me, we've got to, I think, change that to a trust but verify, but get rid of the trust piece of it, just to verify. >> Okay, we got a lot of CISOs and CSOs watching this showcase, looking at the hot startups, what's the message to the executives there. Do they want to become more leaning in more hawkish if you will, to use the military term on security? I mean, I heard one CISO say, security first then compliance 'cause compliance can make you complacent and then you're unsecure at that point. >> I actually say that. I agree. One definitely security is different and more important than being compliant. I think there's another emerging concept, which is I'd rather be defensible than secure. What I mean by that is security is a point in time state. I am secure right now. I may not be secure tomorrow 'cause something's changed. But if I'm defensible, then what I have is that muscle memory to detect, respondent and stifle an attack. And that's what's more important. Can I detect you? How long did it take me to detect you? Can I stifle you from achieving your objective? How long did it take me to stifle you? What did you use to get in to gain access? How long did that sit in my environment? How long did it take me to fix it? So on and so forth. But I think it's being defensible and being able to rapidly adapt to changing tactics by the adversary is more important. >> This is the evolution of how the red line never moved. You got the adversaries in our networks and our banks. Now they hang out and they wait. So everyone thinks they're secure. But when they start getting hacked, they're not really in a position to defend, the alarms go off. Where's the playbook. Team springs into action. I mean, you kind of get the visual there, but this is really the issue being defensible means having your own essentially military for your company. >> Being defensible, I think has two pieces. One is you've got to have this culture and process in place of training like you fight because you want to build that incident response muscle memory ahead of time. You don't want to have to learn how to respond to an incident in the middle of the incident. So that is that proactively verifying your posture and continuous pen testing is critical there. The second part is the actual fundamentals in place so you can detect and stifle as appropriate. And also being able to do that. When you are continuously verifying your posture, you need to verify your entire posture, not just your test systems, which is what most people do. But you have to be able to safely pen test your production systems, your cloud environments, your perimeter. You've got to assume that the bad guys are going to get in, once they're in, what can they do? So don't just say that my perimeter's secure and I'm good to go. It's the soft squishy center that attackers are going to get into. And from there, can you detect them and can you stop them? >> Snehal, take me through the use. You got to be sold on this, I love this topic. Alright, pen test. Is it, what am I buying? Just pen test as a service. You mentioned dark web. Are you actually buying credentials online on behalf of the customer? What is the product? What am I buying if I'm the CISO from Horizon3? What's the service? What's the product, be specific. >> So very specifically and one just principles. The first principle is when I was a buyer, I hated being nickled and dimed buyer vendors, which was, I had to buy 15 different modules in order to achieve an objective. Just give me one line item, make it super easy to buy and don't nickel and dime me. Because I've spent time as a buyer that very much has permeated throughout the company. So there is a single skew from Horizon3. It is an annual subscription based on how big your environment is. And it is inclusive of on-prem internal pen tests, external pen tests, cloud attacks, work from home attacks, our ability to harvest credentials from the dark web and from open source sources. Being able to crack those credentials, compromise. All of that is included as a singles skew. All you get as a CISO is a singles skew, annual subscription, and you can run as many pen tests as you want. Some customers still stick to, maybe one pen test a quarter, but most customers shift when they realize there's no limit, we don't nickel and dime. They can run 10, 20, 30, 40 a month. >> Well, it's not nickel and dime in the sense that, it's more like dollars and hundreds because they know what to expect if it's classic cloud consumption. They kind of know what their environment, can people try it. Let's just say I have a huge environment, I have a cloud, I have an on-premise private cloud. Can I dabble and set parameters around pricing? >> Yes you can. So one is you can dabble and set perimeter around scope, which is like manufacturing does this, do not touch the production line that's on at the moment. We've got a hospital that says every time they run a pen test, any machine that's actually connected to a patient must be excluded. So you can actually set the parameters for what's in scope and what's out of scope up front, most again we're designed to be safe to run against production so you can set the parameters for scope. You can set the parameters for cost if you want. But our recommendation is I'd rather figure out what you can afford and let you test everything in your environment than try to squeeze every penny from you by only making you buy what can afford as a smaller-- >> So the variable ratio, if you will is, how much they spend is the size of their environment and usage. >> Just size of the environment. >> So it could be a big ticket item for a CISO then. >> It could, if you're really large, but for the most part-- >> What's large? >> I mean, if you were Walmart, well, let me back up. What I heard is global 10 companies spend anywhere from 50 to a hundred million dollars a year on security testing. So they're already spending a ton of money, but they're spending it on consultants that show up maybe a couple of times a year. They don't have, humans can't scale to test a million hosts in your environment. And so you're already spending that money, spend a fraction of that and use us and run as much as you want. And that's really what it comes down to. >> John: All right. So what's the response from customers? >> What's really interesting is there are three use cases. The first is that SOC manager that is using us to verify that their security tools are actually working. So their Splunk environment is logging the right data. It's integrating properly with CrowdStrike, it's integrating properly with their active directory services and their password policies. So the SOC manager is using us to verify the effectiveness of their security controls. The second use case is the IT director that is using us to proactively harden their systems. Did they install VMware correctly? Did they install their Cisco gear correctly? Are they patching right? And then the third are for the companies that are lucky to have their own internal pen test and red teams where they use us like a force multiplier. So if you've got 10 people on your red team and you still have a million IPs or hosts in your environment, you still don't have enough people for that coverage. So they'll use us to do recon at scale and attack at scale and let the humans focus on the really juicy hard stuff that humans are successful at. >> Love the product. Again, I'm trying to think about how I engage on the test. Is there pilots? Is there a demo version? >> There's a free trials. So we do 30 day free trials. The output can actually be used to meet your SOC 2 requirements. So in many ways you can just use us to get a free SOC 2 pen test report right now, if you want. Go to the website, log in for a free trial, you can log into your Google ID or your LinkedIn ID, run a pen test against your organization and use that to answer your PCI segmentation test requirements, your SOC 2 requirements, but you will be hooked. You will want to run us more often. And you'll get a Horizon3 tattoo. >> The first hits free as they say in the drug business. >> Yeah. >> I mean, so you're seeing that kind of response then, trial converts. >> It's exactly. In fact, we have a very well defined aha moment, which is you run us to find, you fix, you run us to verify, we have 100% technical win rate when our customers hit a find, fix, verify cycle, then it's about budget and urgency. But 100% technical win rate because of that aha moment, 'cause people realize, holy crap, I don't have to wait six months to verify that my problems have actually been fixed. I can just come in, click, verify, rerun the entire pen test or rerun a very specific part of it on what I just patched my environment. >> Congratulations, great stuff. You're here part of the AWS Startup Showcase. So I have to ask, what's the relationship with AWS, you're on their cloud. What kind of actions going on there? Is there secret sauce on there? What's going on? >> So one is we are AWS customers ourselves, our brains command and control infrastructure. All of our analytics are all running on AWS. It's amazing, when we run a pen test, we are able to use AWS and we'll spin up a virtual private cloud just for that pen test. It's completely ephemeral, it's all Lambda functions and graph analytics and other techniques. When the pen test ends, you can delete, there's a single use Docker container that gets deleted from your environment so you have nothing on-prem to deal with and the entire virtual private cloud tears itself down. So at any given moment, if we're running 50 pen tests or a hundred pen tests, self-service, there's a hundred virtual private clouds being managed in AWS that are spinning up, running and tearing down. It's an absolutely amazing underlying platform for us to make use of. Two is that many customers that have hybrid environments. So they've got a cloud infrastructure, an Office 365 infrastructure and an on-prem infrastructure. We are a single attack platform that can test all of that together. No one else can do it. And so the AWS customers that are especially AWS hybrid customers are the ones that we do really well targeting. >> Got it. And that's awesome. And that's the benefit of cloud? >> Absolutely. And the AWS marketplace. What's absolutely amazing is the competitive advantage being part of the marketplace has for us, because the simple thing is my customers, if they already have dedicated cloud spend, they can use their approved cloud spend to pay for Horizon3 through the marketplace. So you don't have to, if you already have that budget dedicated, you can use that through the marketplace. The other is you've already got the vendor processes in place, you can purchase through your existing AWS account. So what I love about the AWS company is one, the infrastructure we use for our own pen test, two, the marketplace, and then three, the customers that span that hybrid cloud environment. That's right in our strike zone. >> Awesome. Well, congratulations. And thanks for being part of the showcase and I'm sure your product is going to do very, very well. It's very built for what people want. Self-service get in, get the value quickly. >> No agents to install, no consultants to hire. safe to run against production. It's what I wanted. >> Great to see you and congratulations and what a great story. And we're going to keep following you. Thanks for coming on. >> Snehal: Phenomenal. Thank you, John. >> This is the AWS Startup Showcase. I'm John John Furrier, your host. This is season two, episode four on cybersecurity. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Welcome back everyone. theCube's live coverage here. Day two, of two sets, three days of theCube coverage here at VMware Explore. This is our 12th year covering VMware's annual conference, formerly called VM World. I'm John Furrier, with Dave Vellante. We'd love seeing the progress and we've got great security comes Tom Gill, senior vices, president general manager, networking and advanced security business group at VMware. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks. for having me. >> Yeah, really happy we could have you on. >> I think this is my sixth edition on the theCube. Do I get frequent flyer points or anything? >> Yeah. >> You first get the VIP badge. We'll make that happen. You can start getting credits. >> Okay, there we go. >> We won't interrupt you. Seriously, you got a great story in security here. The security story is kind of embedded everywhere, so it's not called out and blown up and talked specifically about on stage. It's kind of in all the narratives in the VM World for this year. But you guys have an amazing security story. So let's just step back and to set context. Tell us the security story for what's going on here at VMware and what that means to this supercloud, multi-cloud and ongoing innovation with VMware. >> Yeah, sure thing. So probably the first thing I'll point out is that security's not just built in at VMware. It's built differently. So, we're not just taking existing security controls and cut and pasting them into our software. But we can do things because of our platform, because of the virtualization layer that you really can't do with other security tools. And where we're very, very focused is what we call lateral security or East-West movement of an attacker. 'Cause frankly, that's the name of the game these days. Attackers, you've got to assume that they're already in your network. Already assume that they're there. Then how do we make it hard for them to get to the stuff that you really want? Which is the data that they're going after. And that's where we really should. >> All right. So we've been talking a lot, coming into VMware Explore, and here, the event. About two things. Security, as a state. >> Yeah. >> I'm secure right now. >> Yeah. >> Or I think I'm secure right now, even though someone might be in my network or in my environment. To the notion of being defensible. >> Yeah. >> Meaning I have to defend and be ready at a moment's notice to attack, fight, push back, red team, blue team. Whatever you're going to call it. But something's happening. I got to be able to defend. >> Yeah. So what you're talking about is the principle of Zero Trust. When I first started doing security, the model was we have a perimeter. And everything on one side of the perimeter is dirty, ugly, old internet. And everything on this side, known good, trusted. What could possibly go wrong. And I think we've seen that no matter how good you make that perimeter, bad guys find a way in. So Zero Trust says, you know what? Let's just assume they're already in. Let's assume they're there. How do we make it hard for them to move around within the infrastructure and get to the really valuable assets? 'Cause for example, if they bust into your laptop, you click on a link and they get code running on your machine. They might find some interesting things on your machine. But they're not going to find 250 million credit cards. >> Right. >> Or the script of a new movie or the super secret aircraft plans. That lives in a database somewhere. And so it's that movement from your laptop to that database. That's where the damage is done and that's where VMware shines. >> So if they don't have the right to get to that database, they're not in. >> And it's not even just the right. So they're so clever and so sneaky that they'll steal a credential off your machine, go to another machine, steal a credential off of that. So, it's like they have the key to unlock each one of these doors. And we've gotten good enough where we can look at that lateral movement, even though it has a credential and a key, we're like wait a minute. That's not a real CIS Admin making a change. That's ransomware. And that's where you. >> You have to earn your way in. >> That's right. That's right. Yeah. >> And we're all kinds of configuration errors. But also some user problems. I've heard one story where there's so many passwords and username and passwords and systems that the bad guys scour, the dark web for passwords that have been exposed. >> Correct. >> And go test them against different accounts. Oh one hit over here. >> Correct. >> And people don't change their passwords all the time. >> Correct. >> That's a known vector. >> Just the idea that users are going to be perfect and never make a mistake. How long have we been doing this? Humans are the weakest link. So people are going to make mistakes. Attackers are going to be in. Here's another way of thinking about it. Remember log4j? Remember that whole fiasco? Remember that was at Christmas time. That was nine months ago. And whoever came up with that vulnerability, they basically had a skeleton key that could access every network on the planet. I don't know if a single customer that said, "Oh yeah, I wasn't impacted by log4j." So here's some organized entity had access to every network on the planet. What was the big breach? What was that movie script that got stolen? So there wasn't one, right? We haven't heard anything. So the point is, the goal of attackers is to get in and stay in. Imagine someone breaks into your house, steals your laptop and runs. That's a breach. Imagine someone breaks into your house and stays for nine months. It's untenable, in the real world, right? >> Right. >> We don't know in there, hiding in the closet. >> They're still in. >> They're watching everything. >> Hiding in your closet, exactly. >> Moving around, nibbling on your cookies. >> Drinking your beer. >> Yeah. >> So let's talk about how this translates into the new reality of cloud-native. Because now you hear about automated pentesting is a new hot thing right now. You got antivirus on data is hot within APIs, for instance. >> Yeah. >> API security. So all kinds of new hot areas. Cloud-native is very iterative. You know, you can't do a pentest every week. >> Right. >> You got to do it every second. >> So this is where it's going. It's not so much simulation. It's actually real testing. >> Right. Right. >> How do you view that? How does that fit into this? 'cause that seems like a good direction to me. >> Yeah. If it's right in, and you were talking to my buddy, Ahjay, earlier about what VMware can do to help our customers build cloud native applications with Tanzu. My team is focused on how do we secure those applications? So where VMware wants to be the best in the world is securing these applications from within. Looking at the individual piece parts and how they talk to each other and figuring out, wait a minute, that should never happen. By almost having an x-ray machine on the innards of the application. So we do it for both for VMs and for container based applications. So traditional apps are VM based. Modern apps are container based. And we have a slightly different insertion mechanism. It's the same idea. So for VMs, we do it with a hypervisor with NSX. We see all the inner workings. In a container world we have this thing called a service mesh that lets us look at each little snippet of code and how they talk to each other. And once you can see that stuff, then you can actually apply. It's almost like common sense logic of like, wait a minute. This API is giving back credit card numbers and it gives five an hour. All of a sudden, it's now asking for 20,000 or a million credit cards. That doesn't make any sense. The anomalies stick out like a sore thumb. If you can see them. At VMware, our unique focus in the infrastructure is that we can see each one of these little transactions and understand the conversation. That's what makes us so good at that East-West or lateral security. >> You don't belong in this room, get out or that that's some weird call from an in memory database, something over here. >> Exactly. Where other security solutions won't even see that. It's not like there algorithms aren't as good as ours or better or worse. It's the access to the data. We see the inner plumbing of the app and therefore we can protect the app from. >> And there's another dimension that I want to get in the table here. 'Cause to my knowledge only AWS, Google, I believe Microsoft and Alibaba and VMware have this. >> Correct >> It's Nitro. The equivalent of a Nitro. >> Yes. >> Project Monterey. >> Yeah. >> That's unique. It's the future of computing architectures. Everybody needs a Nitro. I've written about this. >> Yeah. >> Right. So explain your version. >> Yeah. >> It's now real. >> Yeah. >> It's now in the market, right? >> Yeah. >> Or soon will be. >> Here's our mission. >> Salient aspects. >> Yeah. Here's our mission of VMware. Is that we want to make every one of our enterprise customers. We want their private cloud to be as nimble, as agile, as efficient as the public cloud. >> And secure. >> And secure. In fact, I'll argue, we can make it actually more secure because we're thinking about putting security everywhere in this infrastructure. Not just on the edges of it. Okay. How do we go on that journey? As you pointed out, the public cloud providers realized five years ago that the right way to build computers was not just a CPU and a graphics process unit, GPU. But there's this third thing that the industry's calling a DPU, data processing unit. And so there's kind of three pieces of a computer. And the DPU is sometimes called a Smartnic. It's the network interface card. It does all that network handling and analytics and it takes it off the CPU. So they've been building and deploying those systems themselves. That's what Nitro is. And so we have been working with the major Silicon vendors to bring that architecture to everybody. So with vSphere 8, we have the ability to take the network processing, that East-West inspection I talked about, take it off of the CPU and put it into this dedicated processing element called the DPU and free up the CPU to run the applications that Ahjay and team are building. >> So no performance degradation at all? >> Correct. To CPU offload. >> So even the opposite, right? I mean you're running it basically Bare Metal speeds. >> Yes, yes and yes. >> And you're also isolating the storage from the security, the management, and. >> There's an isolation angle to this, which is that firewall, that we're putting everywhere. Not just that the perimeter, but we put it in each little piece of the server is running when it runs on one of these DPUs it's a different memory space. So even if an attacker gets to root in the OS, they it's very, very, never say never, but it's very difficult. >> So who has access to that resource? >> Pretty much just the infrastructure layer, the cloud provider. So it's Amazon, Google, Microsoft, and the enterprise. >> Application can't get in. >> Can't get in there. Cause you would've to literally bridge from one memory space to another. Never say never, but it would be very. >> But it hasn't earned the trust to get. >> It's more than barbwire. It's multiple walls. >> Yes. And it's like an air gap. It puts an air gap in the server itself so that if the server is compromised, it's not going to get into the network. Really powerful. >> What's the big thing that you're seeing with this supercloud transition. We're seeing multi-cloud and this new, not just SaaS hosted on the cloud. >> Yeah. >> You're seeing a much different dynamic of, combination of large scale CapEx, cloud-native, and then now cloud-native drills on premises and edge. Kind of changing what a cloud looks like if the cloud's on a cloud. >> Yeah. >> So we're the customer, I'm building on a cloud and I have on premise stuff. So, I'm getting scale CapEx relief from the hyperscalers. >> I think there's an important nuance on what you're talking about. Which is in the early days of the cloud customers. Remember those first skepticism? Oh, it'll never work. Oh, that's consumer grade. Oh, that's not really going to work. Oh some people realize. >> It's not secure. >> Yeah. It's not secure. >> That one's like, no, no, no it's secure. It works. And it's good. So then there was this sort of over rush. Let's put everything on the cloud. And I had a lot of customers that took VM based applications said, I'm going to move those onto the cloud. You got to take them all apart, put them on the cloud and put them all back together again. And little tiny details like changing an IP address. It's actually much harder than it looks. So my argument is, for existing workloads for VM based workloads, we are VMware. We're so good at running VM based workloads. And now we run them on anybody's cloud. So whether it's your east coast data center, your west coast data center, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Alibaba, IBM keep going. We pretty much every. >> And the benefit of the customer is what. >> You can literally VMotion and just pick it up and move it from private to public, public to private, private to public, Back and forth. >> Remember when we called Vmotion BS, years ago? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> VMotion is powerful. >> We were very skeptical. We're like, that'll never happen. I mean we were. This supposed to be pat ourselves on the back. >> Well because alchemy. It seems like what you can't possibly do that. And now we do it across clouds. So it's not quite VMotion, but it's the same idea. You can just move these things over. I have one customer that had a production data center in the Ukraine. Things got super tense, super fast and they had to go from their private cloud data center in the Ukraine, to a public cloud data center out of harm's way. They did it over a weekend. 48 hours. If you've ever migrated a data center, that's usually six months. Right. And a lot of heartburn and a lot of angst. Boop. They just drag and dropped and moved it on over. That's the power of what we call the cloud operating model. And you can only do this when all your infrastructures defined in software. If you're relying on hardware, load balancers, hardware, firewalls, you can't move those. They're like a boat anchor. You're stuck with them. And by the way, they're really, really expensive. And by the way, they eat a lot of power. So that was an architecture from the 90's. In the cloud operating model your data center. And this comes back to what you were talking about is just racks and racks of X86 with these magic DPUs, or smart nics, to make any individual node go blisteringly fast and do all the functions that you used to do in network appliances. >> We just had Ahjay taking us to school, and everyone else to school on applications, middleware, abstraction layer. And Kit Culbert was also talking about this across cloud. We're talking supercloud, super pass. If this continues to happen, which we would think it will happen. What does the security posture look like? It feels to me, and again, this is your wheelhouse. If supercloud happens with this kind of past layer where there's vMotioning going on. All kinds of spanning applications and data across environments. >> Yeah. Assume there's an operating system working on behind the scenes. >> Right. >> What's the security posture in all this? >> Yeah. So remember my narrative about the bad guys are getting in and they're moving around and they're so sneaky that they're using legitimate pathways. The only way to stop that stuff, is you've got to understand it at what we call Layer 7. At the application layer. Trying to do security to the infrastructure layer. It was interesting 20 years ago, kind of less interesting 10 years ago. And now it's becoming irrelevant because the infrastructure is oftentimes not even visible. It's buried in some cloud provider. So Layer 7 understanding, application awareness, understanding the APIs and reading the content. That's the name of the game in security. That's what we've been focused on. Nothing to do with the infrastructure. >> And where's the progress bar on that paradigm. One to ten. Ten being everyone's doing it. >> Right now. Well, okay. So we as a vendor can do this today. All the stuff I talked about, reading APIs, understanding the individual services looking at, Hey, wait a minute this credit card anomalies, that's all shipping production code. Where is it in customer adoption life cycle? Early days 10%. So there's a whole lot of headroom for people to understand, Hey, I can put these controls in place. They're software based. They don't require appliances. It's Layer 7, so it has contextual awareness and it's works on every single cloud. >> We talked about the pandemic being an accelerator. It really was a catalyst to really rethink. Remember we used to talk about Pat as a security do over. He's like, yes, if it's the last thing I do, I'm going to fix security. Well, he decided to go try to fix Intel instead. >> He's getting some help from the government. >> But it seems like CISOs have totally rethought their security strategy. And at least in part, as a function of the pandemic. >> When I started at VMware four years ago, Pat sat me down in his office and he said to me what he said to you, which is like, "Tom," he said, "I feel like we have fundamentally changed servers. We fundamentally change storage. We fundamentally change networking. The last piece of the puzzle of security. I want you to go fundamentally change it." And I'll argue that the work that we're doing with this horizontal security, understanding the lateral movement. East- West inspection. It fundamentally changes how security works. It's got nothing to do with firewalls. It's got nothing to do with Endpoint. It's a unique capability that VMware is uniquely suited to deliver on. And so Pat, thanks for the mission. We delivered it and it's available now. >> Those WET web applications firewall for instance are around, I mean. But to your point, the perimeter's gone. >> Exactly. >> And so you got to get, there's no perimeter. so it's a surface area problem. >> Correct. And access. And entry. >> Correct. >> They're entering here easy from some manual error, or misconfiguration or bad password that shouldn't be there. They're in. >> Think about it this way. You put the front door of your house, you put a big strong door and a big lock. That's a firewall. Bad guys come in the window. >> And then the windows open. With a ladder. >> Oh my God. Cause it's hot, bad user behavior trumps good security every time. >> And then they move around room to room. We're the room to room people. We see each little piece of the thing. Wait, that shouldn't happen. Right. >> I want to get you a question that we've been seeing and maybe we're early on this or it might be just a false data point. A lot of CSOs and we're talking to are, and people in industry in the customer environment are looking at CISOs and CSOs, two roles. Chief information security officer, and then chief security officer. Amazon, actually Steven Schmidt is now CSO at Reinforce. They actually called that out. And the interesting point that he made, we had some other situations that verified this, is that physical security is now tied to online, to your point about the service area. If I get a password, I still got the keys to the physical goods too. >> Right. So physical security, whether it's warehouse for them or store or retail. Digital is coming in there. >> Yeah. So is there a CISO anymore? Is it just CSO? What's the role? Or are there two roles you see that evolving? Or is that just circumstance. >> I think it's just one. And I think that the stakes are incredibly high in security. Just look at the impact that these security attacks are having on. Companies get taken down. Equifax market cap was cut 80% with a security breach. So security's gone from being sort of a nuisance to being something that can impact your whole kind of business operation. And then there's a whole nother domain where politics get involved. It determines the fate of nations. I know that sounds grand, but it's true. And so companies care so much about it they're looking for one leader, one throat to choke. One person that's going to lead security in the virtual domain, in the physical domain, in the cyber domain, in the actual. >> I mean, you mention that, but I mean, you look at Ukraine. I mean that cyber is a component of that war. I mean, it's very clear. I mean, that's new. We've never seen. this. >> And in my opinion, the stuff that we see happening in the Ukraine is small potatoes compared to what could happen. >> Yeah. >> So the US, we have a policy of strategic deterrence. Where we develop some of the most sophisticated cyber weapons in the world. We don't use them. And we hope never to use them. Because our adversaries, who could do stuff like, I don't know, wipe out every bank account in North America. Or turn off the lights in New York City. They know that if they were to do something like that, we could do something back. >> This is the red line conversation I want to go there. So, I had this discussion with Robert Gates in 2016 and he said, "We have a lot more to lose." Which is really your point. >> So this brand. >> I agree that there's to have freedom and liberty, you got to strike back with divorce. And that's been our way to balance things out. But with cyber, the red line, people are already in banks. So they're are operating below the red line line. Red line meaning before we know you're in there. So do we move the red line down because, hey, Sony got hacked. The movie. Because they don't have their own militia. >> Yeah. >> If their were physical troops on the shores of LA breaking into the file cabinets. The government would've intervened. >> I agree with you that it creates tension for us in the US because our adversaries don't have the clear delineation between public and private sector. Here you're very, very clear if you're working for the government. Or you work for an private entity. There's no ambiguity on that. >> Collaboration, Tom, and the vendor community. I mean, we've seen efforts to try to. >> That's a good question. >> Monetize private data and private reports. >> So at VMware, I'm very proud of the security capabilities we've built. But we also partner with people that I think of as direct competitors. We've got firewall vendors and Endpoint vendors that we work with and integrate. And so coopetition is something that exists. It's hard. Because when you have these kind of competing. So, could we do more? Of course we probably could. But I do think we've done a fair amount of cooperation, data sharing, product integration, et cetera. And as the threats get worse, you'll probably see us continue to do more. >> And the government is going to trying to force that too. >> And the government also drives standards. So let's talk about crypto. Okay. So there's a new form of encryption coming out called processing quantum. >> Quantum. Quantum computers have the potential to crack any crypto cipher we have today. That's bad. Okay. That's not good at all because our whole system is built around these private communications. So the industry is having conversations about crypto agility. How can we put in place the ability to rapidly iterate the ciphers in encryption. So, when the day quantum becomes available, we can change them and stay ahead of these quantum people. >> Well, didn't NIST just put out a quantum proof algo that's being tested right now by the community? >> There's a lot of work around that. Correct. And NIST is taking the lead on this, but Google's working on it. VMware's working on it. We're very, very active in how do we keep ahead of the attackers and the bad guys? Because this quantum thing is a, it's an x-ray machine. It's like a dilithium crystal that can power a whole ship. It's a really, really, really powerful tool. >> Bad things will happen. >> Bad things could happen. >> Well, Tom, great to have you on the theCube. Thanks for coming on. Take the last minute to just give a plug for what's going on for you here at VMWorld this year, just VMware Explore this year. >> Yeah. We announced a bunch of exciting things. We announced enhancements to our NSX family, with our advanced load balancer. With our edge firewall. And they're all in service of one thing, which is helping our customers make their private cloud like the public cloud. So I like to say 0, 0, 0. If you are in the cloud operating model, you have zero proprietary appliances. You have zero tickets to launch a workload. You have zero network taps and Zero Trust built into everything you do. And that's what we're working on. Pushing that further and further. >> Tom Gill, senior vices president, head of the networking at VMware. Thanks for coming on. We do appreciate it. >> Thanks for having us. >> Always getting the security data. That's killer data and security of the two ops that get the most conversations around DevOps and Cloud Native. This is The theCube bringing you all the action here in San Francisco for VMware Explore 2022. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

>>Welcome back everyone Cube's live coverage here. Day two, two sets, three days of cube coverage here at VMware Explorer. This is our 12th year covering VMware's annual conference, formally called world I'm Jean Dave ante. We'd love seeing the progress and we've got great security comes Tom Gill, senior rights, president general manager, networking and advanced security business group at VMware. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Thanks >>For having me. Yeah, really happy we could have you on, you know, I think, I think this is my sixth edition on the cube. Like, do I get freaking flyer points or anything? >>Yeah, you get first get the VIP badge. We'll make that happen. You can start getting credits. >>Okay. There we go. >>We won't interrupt you. No, seriously, you got a great story in security here. The security story is kind of embedded everywhere, so it's not like called out and, and blown up and talked specifically about on stage. It's kind of in all the narratives in, in the VM world for this year. Yeah. But you guys have an amazing security story. So let's just step back into set context. Tell us the security story for what's going on here at VMware and what that means to this super cloud multi-cloud and ongoing innovation with VMware. Yeah, >>Sure thing. So, so probably the first thing I'll point out is that, that security's not just built in at VMware it's built differently, right? So we're not just taking existing security controls and cut and pasting them into, into our software. But we can do things because of our platform because of the virtualization layer that you really can't do with other security tools and where we're very, very focused is what we call lateral security or east west movement of an attacker. Cuz frankly, that's the name of the game these days. Right? Attackers, you gotta assume that they're already in your network. Okay. Already assume that they're there, then how do we make it hard for them to get to what the, the stuff that you really want, which is the data that they're, they're going after. Right. And that's where we, >>We really should. All right. So we've been talking a lot coming into world VMware Explorer and here the event about two things security as a state. Yeah. I'm secure right now. Yeah. Or I, I think I'm secure right now, even though someone might be in my network or in my environment to the notion of being defensible. Yeah. Meaning I have to defend and be ready at a moment's notice to attack, fight, push back red team, blue team, whatever you're gonna call it, but something's happening. I gotta be a to defend. Yeah. >>So you, what you're talking about is the principle of zero trust. So the, the, when we, when I first started doing security, the model was we have a perimeter and everything on one side of the perimeter is dirty, ugly, old internet and everything on this side known good, trusted what could possibly go wrong. And I think we've seen that no matter how good you make that perimeter, bad guys find a way in. So zero trust says, you know what? Let's just assume they're already in. Let's assume they're there. How do we make it hard for them to move around within the infrastructure and get to the really valuable assets? Cuz for example, if they bust into your laptop, you click on a link and they get code running on your machine. They might find some interesting things on your machine, but they're not gonna find 250 million credit cards. Right. Or the, the script of a new movie or the super secret aircraft plans, right. That lives in a database somewhere. And so it's that movement from your laptop to that database. That's where the damage is done. Yeah. And that's where VMware shines. If they don't >>Have the right to get to that database, they're >>Not >>In and it's not even just the right, like, so they're so clever. And so sneaky that they'll steal a credential off your machine, go to another machine, steal a credential off of that. So it's like they have the key to unlock each one of these doors and we've gotten good enough where we can look at that lateral movement, even though it has a credential and a key where like, wait a minute, that's not a real CIS admin making a change. That's ransomware. Yeah. Right. And that's, that's where we, you have to earn your way in. That's right. That's >>Right. Yeah. And we're all, there's all kinds of configuration errors. But also some, some I'll just user problems. I've heard one story where there's so many passwords and username and passwords and systems that the bad guy's scour, the dark web for passwords that have been exposed. Correct. And go test them against different accounts. Oh one hit over here. Correct. And people don't change their passwords all the time. Correct? Correct. That's a known, known vector. We, >>We just, the idea that users are gonna be perfect and never make mistake. Like how long have we been doing this? Like humans with the weakest link. Right. So, so, so people are gonna make mistakes. Attackers are gonna be in here's another way of thinking about it. Remember log for J. Remember that whole ago, remember that was a Christmas time. That was nine months ago. And whoever came up with that, that vulnerability, they basically had a skeleton key that could access every network on the planet. I don't know if a single customer that was said, oh yeah, I wasn't impacted by log for J. So seers, some organized entity had access to every network on the planet. What was the big breach? What was that movie script that got stolen? So there wasn't one. Right? We haven't heard anything. So the point is the goal of attackers is to get in and stay in. Imagine someone breaks into your house, steals your laptop and runs. That's a breach. Imagine someone breaks into your house and stays for nine months. Like it's untenable, the real world. Right, right. >>We don't even go in there. They're still in there >>Watching your closet. Exactly. Moving around, nibbling on your ni line, your cookies. You know what I mean? Drinking your beer. >>Yeah. So, so let's talk about how this translates into the new reality of cloud native, because now know you hear about, you know, automated pen testing is a, a new hot thing right now you got antivirus on data. Yeah. Is hot is hot within APIs, for instance. Yeah. API security. So all kinds of new hot areas, cloud native is very iterative. You know, you, you can't do a pen test every week. Right. You gotta do it every second. Right. So this is where it's going. It's not so much simulation. It's actually real testing. Right. Right. How do you view that? How does that fit into this? Cuz that seems like a good direction to me. >>Yeah. It, it, it fits right in. And you were talking to my buddy AJ earlier about what VMware can do to help our customers build cloud native applications with, with Zu, my team is focused on how do we secure those applications? So where VMware wants to be the best in the world is securing these applications from within looking at the individual piece parts and how they talk to each other and figuring out, wait a minute. That, that, that, that, that should never happen by like almost having an x-ray machine on the ins of the application. So we do it for both for VMs and for container based applications. So traditional apps are VM based. Modern apps are container based and we, and we have a slightly different insertion mechanism. It's the same idea. So for VMs, we do it with the hypervisor, with NSX, we see all the inner workings in a container world. >>We have this thing called a service me that lets us look at each little snippet of code and how they talk to each other. And once you can see that stuff, then you can actually apply. It's almost like common sense logic of like, wait a minute. You know, this API is giving back credit card numbers and it gives five an hour. All of a sudden, it's now asking for 20,000 or a million credit card that doesn't make any sense. Right? The anomalies stick out like a sore thumb. If you can see them. And VMware, our unique focus in the infrastructure is that we can see each one of these little transactions and understand the conversation. That's what makes us so good at that east west or lateral >>Security. Yeah. You don't belong in this room, get out or that that's right. Some weird call from an in-memory database, something over >>Here. Exactly. Where other, other security solutions won't even see that. Right. It's not like there algorithms aren't as good as ours or, or better or worse. It's that, it's the access to the data. We see the, the, the, the inner plumbing of the app. And therefore we can protect >>The app from, and there's another dimension that I wanna get in the table here, cuz to my knowledge only AWS, Google, I, I believe Microsoft and Alibaba and VMware have this, it nitro the equivalent of a nitro. Yes. Project Monterey. Yeah. That's unique. It's the future of computing architectures. Everybody needs a nitro. I've I've written about this. Yeah. Right. So explain your version. Yeah. Project. It's now real. It's now in the market right. Or soon will be. Yeah. Here. Here's our mission salient aspects. Yeah. >>Here's our mission of VMware is that we wanna make every one of our enterprise customers. We want their private cloud to be as nimble, as agile, as efficient as the public cloud >>And secure >>And secure. In fact, I'll argue, we can make it actually more secure because we're thinking about putting security everywhere in this infrastructure. Right. Not just on the edges of it. So, so, so, okay. How do we go on that journey? As you pointed out, the public cloud providers realized, you know, five years ago that the right way to build computers was not just a CPU and a GPU graphics process, unit GPU, but there's this third thing that the industry's calling a DPU data processing unit. So there's kind of three pieces of a computer. And the DPU is sometimes called a smart Nick it's the network interface card. It does all that network handling and analytics and it takes it off the CPU. So they've been building and deploying those systems themselves. That's what nitro is. And so we have been working with the major Silicon vendors to bring that architecture to everybody. So, so with vSphere eight, we have the ability to take the network processing that east west inspection. I talked about, take it off of the CPU and put it into this dedicated processing element called the DPU and free up the CPU to run the applications that AJ and team are building. >>So no performance degradation at all, correct. >>To CPU >>Offload. So even the opposite, right? I mean you're running it basically bare metal speeds. >>Yes, yes. And yes. >>And, and, and you're also isolating the, the storage right from the, from the, the, the security, the management. And >>There's an isolation angle to this, which is that firewall that we're putting everywhere. Not just that the perimeter, we put it in each little piece of the server is running when it runs on one of these DPU, it's a different memory space. So even if, if an attacker gets to root in the OS, they it's very, very, never say never, but it's very difficult. >>So who has access to that? That, that resource >>Pretty much just the infrastructure layer, the cloud provider. So it's Google Microsoft, you know, and the enterprise, the >>Application can't get in, >>Can't get in there. Cause it, you would've to literally bridge from one memory space to another, never say never, but it would be very, very, >>It hasn't earned the trust >>To get it's more than Bob wire. It's, it's, it's multiple walls and, and >>It's like an air gap. It puts an air gap in the server itself so that if the server's compromised, it's not gonna get into the network really powerful. >>What's the big thing that you're seeing with this super cloud transition we're seeing, we're seeing, you know, multicloud and this new, not just SAS hosted on the cloud. Yeah. You're seeing a much different dynamic of combination of large scale CapEx, cloud native. And then now cloud native develops on premises and edge kind of changing what a cloud looks like if the cloud's on a cloud. So rubber customer, I'm building on a cloud and I have on-prem stuff. So I'm getting scale CapEx relief from the, from the cap, from the hyperscalers. >>I, I think there's an important nuance on what you're talking about, which is, is in the early days of the cloud customers. Remember those first skepticism? Oh, it'll never work. Oh, that's consumer grade. Oh, that's not really gonna work. And some people realize >>It's not secure. Yeah. >>It, it's not secure that one's like, no, no, no, it's secure. It works. And it, and it's good. So then there was this sort of over rush. Like let's put everything on the cloud. And I had a lot of customers that took VM based applications said, I'm gonna move those onto the cloud. You gotta take 'em all apart, put 'em on the cloud and put 'em all back together again. And little tiny details, like changing an IP address. It's actually much harder than it looks. So my argument is for existing workloads for VM based workloads, we are VMware. We're so good at running VM based workloads. And now we run them on anybody's cloud. So whether it's your east coast data center, your west coast data center, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Alibaba, IBM keep going. Right. We pretty much every, and >>The benefit of the customer is what you >>Can literally vMotion and just pick it up and move it from private to public public, to private, private, to public, public, back and forth. >>Remember when we called VMO BS years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >>We were really, skeptic is >>Powerful. We were very skeptical. We're like, that'll never happen. I mean, we were, I mean, it's supposed to be pat ourselves on the back. We, well, >>Because it's alchemy, it seems like what you can't possibly do that. Right. And so, so, so, and now we do it across clouds, right? So we can, you know, it's not quite VMO, but it's the same idea. You can just move these things over. I have one customer that had a production data center in the Ukraine, things got super tense, super fast, and they had to go from their private cloud data center in the Ukraine to a public cloud data center outta harm's way. They did it over a weekend, 48 hours. If you've ever migrated data, that's usually six months, right? And a lot of heartburn and a lot of angst, boom. They just drag and drop, moved it on over. That's the power of what we call the cloud operating model. And you can only do this when all your infrastructure's defined in software. >>If you're relying on hardware, load, balancers, hardware, firewalls, you can't move those. They're like a boat anchor. You're stuck with them. And by the way, really, really expensive. And by the way, they eat a lot of power, right? So that was an architecture from the nineties in the cloud operating model, your data center. And this goes back to what you were talking about is just racks and racks of X 86 with these magic DPU or smart necks to make any individual node go blisteringly fast and do all the functions that you used to do in network appliances. >>We just said, AJ taking us to school and everyone else to school on applications, middleware abstraction layer. Yeah. And kit Culver was also talking about this across cloud. We're talking super cloud, super pass. If this continues to happen, which we would think it will happen. What does the security posture look like? It has. It feels to me. And again, this is, this is your wheelhouse. If super cloud happens with this kind of past layer where there's B motioning going on, all kinds of yeah. Spanning applications and data. Yeah. Across environments. Yeah. Assume there's an operating system working on behind the scenes. Right. What's the security posture in all this. Yeah. >>So remember my narrative about like VA guys are getting in and they're moving around and they're so sneaky that they're using legitimate pathways. The only way to stop that stuff is you've gotta understand it at what, you know, we call layer seven at the application layer the in, you know, trying to do security, the infrastructure layer. It was interesting 20 years ago, kind of less interesting 10 years ago. And now it's becoming irrelevant because the infrastructure is oftentimes not even visible, right. It's buried in some cloud provider. So layer seven, understanding, application awareness, understanding the APIs and reading the content. That's the name of the game in security. That's what we've been focused on. Right. Nothing to do with >>The infras. And where's the progress bar on that, that paradigm early one at the 10, 10 being everyone's doing it >>Right now. Well, okay. So we, as a vendor can do this today. All the stuff I talked about about reading APIs, understanding the, the individual services looking at, Hey, wait a minute. This credit card anomalies, that's all shipping production code. Where is it in customer adoption life cycle, early days, 10%. So, so there's a whole lot of headroom. We, for people to understand, Hey, I can put these controls in place. There's software based. They don't require appliances. It's layer seven. So it has contextual awareness and it's works on every single cloud. >>You know, we talk about the pandemic. Being an accelerator really was a catalyst to really rethink. Remember we used to talk about pat his security a do over. He's like, yes, if it's the last thing I'm due, I'm gonna fix security. Well, he decided to go try to fix Intel instead, but, >>But, but he's getting some help from the government, >>But it seems like, you know, CISOs have totally rethought, you know, their security strategy. And, and at least in part is a function of the pandemic. >>When I started at VMware four years ago, pat sat me down in his office and he said to me what he said to you, which is like Tom, he said, I feel like we have fundamentally changed servers. We fundamentally changed storage. We fundamentally changed networking. The last piece of the puzzle of security. I want you to go fundamentally change it. And I'll argue that the work that we're doing with this, this horizontal security understanding the lateral movement east west inspection, it fundamentally changes how security works. It's got nothing to do with firewalls. It's got nothing to do with endpoint. It's a unique capability that VMware is uniquely suited to deliver on. And so pat, thanks for the mission. We delivered it and available >>Those, those wet like web applications firewall for instance are, are around. I mean, but to your point, the perimeter's gone. Exactly. And so you gotta get, there's no perimeter. So it's a surface area problem. Correct. And access and entry, correct. They're entering here easy from some manual error or misconfiguration or bad password that shouldn't be there. They're >>In. Think about it this way. You put the front door of your house, you put a big strong door and a big lock. That's a firewall bad guys, come in the window. Right. And >>Then the window's open and the window with a ladder room. Oh my >>God. Cause it's hot, bad user behavior. Trump's good security >>Every time. And then they move around room to room. We're the room to room people. Yeah. We see each little piece of the thing. Wait, that shouldn't happen. Right. >>I wanna get you a question that we've been seeing and maybe we're early on this, or it might be just a, a false data point. A lot of CSOs and we're talking to are, and people in industry in the customer environment are looking at CSOs and CSOs, two roles, chief information security officer, and then chief security officer Amazon, actually, Steven Schmidt is now CSO at reinforced. They actually called that out. Yeah. And the, and the interesting point that he made, we've had some other situations that verified. This is that physical security is now tied to online to your point about the service area. If I get a password, I still at the keys to the physical goods too. Right. Right. So physical security, whether it's warehouse for them is, or store or retail digital is coming in there. Yeah. So is there a CSO anymore? Is it just CSO? What's the role or are there two roles you see that evolving or is that just, >>Well, >>I circumstance, >>I, I think it's just one. And I think that, that, you know, the stakes are incredibly high in security. Just look at the impact that these security attacks are having on it. It, you know, companies get taken down, Equifax market cap was cut, you know, 80% with a security breach. So security's gone from being sort of a nuisance to being something that can impact your whole kind of business operation. And then there's a whole nother domain where politics get involved. Right. It determines the fate of nations. I know that sounds grand, but it's true. Yeah. And so, so, so companies care so much about it. They're looking for one liter, one throat to choke, you know, one person that's gonna lead security in the virtual domain, in the physical domain, in the cyber domain, in, in, you know, in the actual, well, it is, >>I mean, you mentioned that, but I mean, mean you look at Ukraine. I mean the, the, that, that, that cyber is a component of that war. I mean, that's very clear. I mean, that's, that's new, we've never seen >>This. And in my opinion, the stuff that we see happening in the Ukraine is small potatoes compared to what could happen. Yeah, yeah. Right. So the us, we have a policy of, of strategic deterrents where we develop some of the most sophisticated cyber weapons in the world. We don't use them and we hope never to use them because the, the, our adversaries who could do stuff like, oh, I don't know, wipe out every bank account in north America, or turn off the lights in New York city. They know that if they were to do something like that, we could do something back. >>I, this discuss, >>This is the red line conversation I wanna go there. So >>I had this discussion with Robert Gates in 2016 and he said, we have a lot more to lose, which is really >>Your point. So this brand, so I agree that there's the, to have freedom and Liberty, you gotta strike back with divorce and that's been our way to, to balance things out. Yeah. But with cyber, the red line, people are already in banks. So they're addresses are operating below the red line, red line, meaning before we know you're in there. So do we move the red line down because Hey, Sony got hacked the movie because they don't have their own militia. Yeah. If they were physical troops on the shores of LA breaking into the file cabinets. Yeah. The government would've intervened. >>I, I, I agree with you that it creates, it creates tension for us in the us because our, our adversaries don't have the clear delineation between public and private sector here. You're very, very clear if you're working for the government or you work for an private entity, there's no ambiguity on that. And so, so we have different missions in each department. Other countries will use the same cyber capabilities to steal intellectual, you know, a car design as they would to, you know, penetrate a military network. And that creates a huge hazard for us on the us. Cause we don't know how to respond. Yeah. Is that a civil issue? Is that a, a, a military issue? And so, so it creates policy ambiguity. I still love the clarity of separation of, you know, sort of the various branches of government separation of government from, >>But that, but, but bureau on multinational corporation, you then have to, your cyber is a defensible. You have to build the defenses >>A hundred percent. And I will also say that even though there's a clear D mark between government and private sector, there's an awful lot of cooperation. So, so our CSO, Alex toshe is actively involved in the whole intelligence community. He's on boards and standards and we're sharing because we have a common objective, right? We're all working together to fight these bad guys. And that's one of the things I love about cyber is that that even direct competitors, two big banks that are rivals on the street are working together to share security information and, and private, is >>There enough? Is collaboration Tom in the vendor community? I mean, we've seen efforts to try to, that's a good question, monetize private data, you know? Yeah. And private reports and, >>And, you know, like, so at VMware, we, we, I'm very proud of the security capabilities we've built, but we also partner with people that I think of as direct competitors, we've got firewall vendors and endpoint vendors that we work with and integrate. And so cooperation is something that exists. It's hard, you know, because when you have these kind of competing, you know, so could we do more? Of course we probably could, but I do think we've done a fair amount of cooperation, data sharing, product integration, et cetera, you know, and, you know, as the threats get worse, you'll probably see us continue to do more. >>And the governments is gonna trying to force that too. >>And, and the government also drives standards. So let's talk about crypto. Okay. So there's a new form of encryption coming out called quantum processing, calling out. Yeah. Yeah. Quantum, quantum computers have the potential to crack any crypto cipher we have today. That's bad. Okay. Right. That's not good at all because our whole system is built around these private communications. So, so the industry is having conversations about crypto agility. How can we put in place the ability to rapidly iterate the ciphers in encryption? So when the day quantum becomes available, we can change them and stay ahead of these quantum people. Well, >>Didn't this just put out a quantum proof algo that's being tested right now by the, the community. >>There's a lot of work around that. Correct. And, and, and this is taking the lead on this, but you know, Google's working on it, VMware's working on it. We're very, very active in how do we keep ahead of the attackers and the bad guys? Because this quantum thing is like a, it's a, it's a x-ray machine. You know, it's like, it's like a, a, a di lithium crystal that can power a whole ship. Right. It's a really, really, really powerful >>Tool. It's bad. Things will happen. >>Bad things could happen. >>Well, Tom, great to have you on the cube. Thanks for coming. Take the last minute to just give a plug for what's going on for you here at world this year, VMware explore this year. Yeah. >>We announced a bunch of exciting things. We announced enhancements to our, our NSX family, with our advanced load balancer, with our edge firewall. And they're all in service of one thing, which is helping our customers make their private cloud like the public cloud. So I like to say 0, 0, 0. If you are in the cloud operating model, you have zero proprietary appliances. You have zero tickets to launch a workload. You have zero network taps and zero trust built into everything you do. And that's, that's what we're working on and pushing that further and further. >>Tom Gill, senior vices president head of the networking at VMware. Thanks for coming up for you. Appreciate >>It. Yes. Thanks for having guys >>Always getting the security data. That's killer data and security of the two ops that get the most conversations around dev ops and cloud native. This is the queue bringing you all the action here in San Francisco for VMware. Explore 2022. I'm John furrier with Dave, Alan. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome to this CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California. We've got Sam Kassoumeh, co-founder and chief operating office at SecurityScorecard here remotely coming in. Thanks for coming on Sam. Security, Sam. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. Thanks for having me. >> Love the security conversations. I love what you guys are doing. I think this idea of managed services, SaaS. Developers love it. Operation teams love getting into tools easily and having values what you guys got with SecurityScorecard. So let's get into what we were talking before we came on. You guys have a unique solution around ratings, but also it's not your grandfather's pen test want to be security app. Take us through what you guys are doing at SecurityScorecard. >> Yeah. So just like you said, it's not a point in time assessment and it's similar to a traditional credit rating, but also a little bit different. You can really think about it in three steps. In step one, what we're doing is we're doing threat intelligence data collection. We invest really heavily into R&D function. We never stop investing in R&D. We collect all of our own data across the entire IPV force space. All of the different layers. Some of the data we collect is pretty straightforward. We might crawl a website like the example I was giving. We might crawl a website and see that the website says copyright 2005, but we know it's 2022. Now, while that signal isn't enough to go hack and break into the company, it's definitely a signal that someone might not be keeping things up to date. And if a hacker saw that it might encourage them to dig deeper. To more complex signals where we're running one of the largest DNS single infrastructures in the world. We're monitoring command and control malware and its behaviors. We're essentially collecting signals and vulnerabilities from the entire IPV force space, the entire network layer, the entire web app player, leaked credentials. Everything that we think about when we talk about the security onion, we collect data at each one of those layers of the onion. That's step one. And we can do all sorts of interesting insights and information and reports just out of that thread intel. Now, step two is really interesting. What we do is we go identify the attack surface area or what we call the digital footprint of any company in the world. So as a customer, you can simply type in the name of a company and we identify all of the domains, sub domains, subsidiaries, organizations that are identified on the internet that belong to that organization. So every digital asset of every company we go out and we identify that and we update that every 24 hours. And step three is the rating. The rating is probabilistic and it's deterministic. The rating is a benchmark. We're looking at companies compared to their peers of similar size within the same industry and we're looking at how they're performing. And it's probabilistic in the sense that companies that have an F are about seven to eight times more likely to experience a breach. We're an A through F scale, universally understood. Ds and Fs, more likely to experience a breach. A's we see less breaches now. Like I was mentioning before, it doesn't mean that an F is always going to get hacked or an A can never get hacked. If a nation state targets an A, they're going to eventually get in with enough persistence and budget. If the pizza shop on the corner has an F, they may never get hacked because no one cares, but natural correlation, more doors open to the house equals higher likelihood someone unauthorized is going to walk in. So it's really those three steps. The collection, we map it to the surface area of the company and then we produce a rating. Today we're rating about 12 million companies every single day. >> And how many people do you have as customers? >> We have 50,000 organizations using us, both free and paid. We have a freemium tier where just like Yelp or a LinkedIn business profile. Any company in the world has a right to go claim the score. We never extort companies to fix the score. We never charge a company to see the score or fix it. Any company in a world without paying us a cent can go in. They can understand what we're seeing about them, what a hacker could see about their environment. And then we empower them with the tools to fix it and they can fix it and the score will go up. Now companies pay us because they want enterprise capabilities. They want additional modules, insights, which we can talk about. But in total, there's about 50,000 companies that at any given point in time, they're monitoring about a million and a half organizations of the 12 million that we're rating. It sounds like Google. >> If you want to look at it. >> Sounds like Google Search you got going on there. You got a lot of search and then you create relevance, a score, like a ranking. >> That's precisely it. And that's exactly why Google ventures invested in us in our Series B round. And they're on our board. They looked and they said, wow, you guys are building like a Google Search engine over some really impressive threat intelligence. And then you're distilling it into a score which anybody in the world can easily understand. >> Yeah. You obviously have page rank, which changed the organic search business in the late 90s, early 2000s and the rest is history. AdWords. >> Yeah. >> So you got a lot of customer growth there potentially with the opt-in customer view, but you're looking at this from the outside in. You're looking at companies and saying, what's your security posture? Getting a feel for what they got going on and giving them scores. It sounds like it's not like a hacker proof. It's just more of a indicator for management and the team. >> It's an indicator. It's an indicator. Because today, when we go look at our vendors, business partners, third parties were flying blind. We have no idea how they're doing, how they're performing. So the status quo for the last 20 years has been perform a risk assessments, send a questionnaire, ask for a pen test and an audit evidence. We're trying to break that cycle. Nobody enjoys it. They're long tail. It's a trust without verification. We don't really like that. So we think we can evolve beyond this point in time assessment and give a continuous view. Now, today, historically, we've been outside in. Not intrusive, and we'll show you what a hacker can see about an environment, but we have some cool things percolating under the hood that give more of a 360 view outside, inside, and also a regulatory compliance view as well. >> Why is the compliance of the whole third party thing that you're engaging with important? Because I mean, obviously having some sort of way to say, who am I dealing with is important. I mean, we hear all kinds of things in the security landscape, oh, zero trust, and then we hear trust, supply chain, software risk, for example. There's a huge trust factor there. I need to trust this tool or this container. And then you got the zero trust, don't trust anything. And then you've got trust and verify. So you have all these different models and postures, and it just seems hard to keep up with. >> Sam: It's so hard. >> Take us through what that means 'cause pen tests, SOC reports. I mean the clouds help with the SOC report, but if you're doing agile, anything DevOps, you basically would need to do a pen test like every minute. >> It's impossible. The market shifted to the cloud. We watched and it still is. And that created a lot of complexity, not to date myself. But when I was starting off as a security practitioner, the data center used to be in the basement and I would have lunch with the database administrator and we talk about how we were protecting the data. Those days are long gone. We outsource a lot of our key business practices. We might use, for example, ADP for a payroll provider or Dropbox to store our data. But we've shifted and we no longer no who that person is that's protecting our data. They're sitting in another company in another area unknown. And I think about 10, 15 years ago, CISOs had the realization, Hey, wait a second. I'm relying on that third party to function and operate and protect my data, but I don't have any insight, visibility or control of their program. And we were recommended to use questionnaires and audit forms, and those are great. It's good hygiene. It's good practice. Get to know the people that are protecting your data, ask them the questions, get the evidence. The challenge is it's point in time, it's limited. Sometimes the information is inaccurate. Not intentionally, I don't think people intentionally want to go lie, but Hey, if there's a $50 million deal we're trying to close and it's dependent on checking this one box, someone might bend a rule a little bit. >> And I said on theCUBE publicly that I think pen test reports are probably being fudged and dates being replicated because it's just too fast. And again, today's world is about velocity on developers, trust on the code. So you got all kinds of trust issues. So I think verification, the blue check mark on Twitter kind of thing going on, you're going to see a lot more of that and I think this is just the beginning. I think what you guys are doing is scratching the surface. I think this outside in is a good first step, but that's not going to solve the internal problem that still coming and have big surface areas. So you got more surface area expanding. I mean, IOT's coming in, the Edge is coming fast. Never mind hybrid on-premise cloud. What's your organizations do to evaluate the risk and the third party? Hands shaking, verification, scorecards. Is it like a free look here or is it more depth to it? Do you double click on it? Take us through how this evolves. >> John it's become so disparate and so complex, Because in addition to the market moving to the cloud, we're now completely decentralized. People are working from home or working hybrid, which adds more endpoints. Then what we've learned over time is that it's not just a third party problem, because guess what? My third parties behind the scenes are also using third parties. So while I might be relying on them to process my customer's payment information, they're relying on 20 vendors behind the scene that I don't even know about. I might have an A, they might have an A. It's really important that we expand beyond that. So coming out of our innovation hub, we've developed a number of key capabilities that allow us to expand the value for the customer. One, you mentioned, outside in is great, but it's limited. We can see what a hacker sees and that's helpful. It gives us pointers where to maybe go ask double click, get comfort, but there's a whole nother world going on behind the firewall inside of an organization. And there might be a lot of good things going on that CISO security teams need to be rewarded for. So we built an inside module and component that allows teams to start plugging in the tools, the capabilities, keys to their cloud environments. And that can show anybody who's looking at the scorecard. It's less like a credit score and more like a social platform where we can go and look at someone's profile and say, Hey, how are things going on the inside? Do they have two-factor off? Are there cloud instances configured correctly? And it's not a point in time. This is a live connection that's being made. This is any point in time, we can validate that. The other component that we created is called an evidence locker. And an evidence locker, it's like a secure vault in my scorecard and it allows me to upload things that you don't really stand for or check for. Collateral, compliance paperwork, SOC 2 reports. Those things that I always begrudgingly email. I don't want to share with people my trade secrets, my security policies, and have it sit on their exchange server. So instead of having to email the same documents out, 300 times a month, I just upload them to my evidence locker. And what's great is now anybody following my scorecard can proactively see all the great things I'm doing. They see the outside view. They see the inside view. They see the compliance view. And now they have the holy grail view of my environment and can have a more intelligent conversation. >> Access to data and access methods are an interesting innovation area around data lineage. Tracing is becoming a big thing. We're seeing that. I was just talking with the Snowflake co-founder the other day here in theCUBE about data access and they're building a proprietary mesh on top of the clouds to figure out, Hey, I don't want to give just some tool access to data because I don't know what's on the other side of those tools. Now they had a robust ecosystem. So I can see this whole vendor risk supply chain challenge around integration as a huge problem space that you guys are attacking. What's your reaction to that? >> Yeah. Integration is tricky because we want to be really particular about who we allow access into our environment or where we're punching holes in the firewall and piping data out out of the environment. And that can quickly become unwieldy just with the control that we have. Now, if we give access to a third party, we then don't have any control over who they're sharing our information with. When I talk to CISOs today about this challenge, a lot of folks are scratching their head, a lot of folks treat this as a pet project. Like how do I control the larger span beyond just the third parties? How do I know that their software partners, their contractors that they're working with building their tools are doing a good job? And even if I know, meaning, John, you might send me a list of all of your vendors. I don't want to be the bad guy. I don't really have the right to go reach out to my vendors' vendors knocking on their door saying, hi, I'm Sam. I'm working with John and he's your customer. And I need to make sure that you're protecting my data. It's an awkward chain of conversation. So we're building some tools that help the security teams hold the entire ecosystem accountable. We actually have a capability called automatic vendor discovery. We can go detect who are the vendors of a company based on the connections that we see, the inbound and outbound connections. And what often ends up happening John is we're bringing to the attention to our customers, awareness about inbound and outbound connections. They had no idea existed. There were the shadow IT and the ghost vendors that were signed without going through an assessment. We detect those connections and then they can go triage and reduce the risk accordingly. >> I think that risk assessment of vendors is key. I was just reading a story about this, about how a percentage, I forget the number. It was pretty large of applications that aren't even being used that are still on in companies. And that becomes a safe haven for bad actors to hang out and penetrate 'cause they get overlooked 'cause no one's using them, but they're still online. And so there's a whole, I called cleaning up the old dead applications that are still connected. >> That happens all the time. Those applications also have applications that are dead and applications that are alive may also have users that are dead as well. So you have that problem at the application level, at the user level. We also see a permutation of what you describe, which is leftover artifacts due to configuration mistakes. So a company just put up a new data center, a satellite office in Singapore and they hired a team to go install all the hardware. Somebody accidentally left an administrative portal exposed to the public internet and nobody knew the internet works, the lights are on, the office is up and running, but there was something that was supposed to be turned off that was left turned on. So sometimes we bring to company's attention and they say, that's not mine. That doesn't belong to me. And we're like, oh, well, we see some reason why. >> It's his fault. >> Yeah and they're like, oh, that was the contractor set up the thing. They forgot to turn off the administrative portal with the default login credentials. So we shut off those doors. >> Yeah. Sam, this is really something that's not talked about a lot in the industry that we've become so reliant on managed services and other people, CISOs, CIOs, and even all departments that have applications, even marketing departments, they become reliant on agencies and other parties to do stuff for them which inherently just increases the risk here of what they have. So there inherently could be as secure as they could be, but yet exposed completely on the other side. >> That's right. We have so many virtual touch points with our partners, our vendors, our managed service providers, suppliers, other third parties, and all the humans that are involved in that mix. It creates just a massive ripple effect. So everybody in a chain can be doing things right. And if there's one bad link, the whole chain breaks. I know it's like the cliche analogy, but it rings true. >> Supply chain trust again. Trust who you trust. Let's see how those all reconcile. So Sam, I have to ask you, okay, you're a former CISO. You've seen many movies in the industry. Co-founded this company. You're in the front lines. You've got some cool things happening. I can almost imagine the vision is a lot more than just providing a rating and score. I'm sure there's more vision around intelligence, automation. You mentioned vault, wallet capabilities, exchanging keys. We heard at re:Inforce automated reasoning, metadata reasoning. You got all kinds of crypto and quantum. I mean, there's a lot going on that you can tap into. What's your vision where you see SecurityScorecard going? >> When we started the company, the rating was the thing that we sold and it was a language that helped technical and non-technical folks alike level the playing field and talk about risk and use it to drive their strategy. Today, the rating just opens the door to that discussion and there's so much additional value. I think in the next one to two years, we're going to see the rating becomes standardized. It's going to be more frequently asked or even required or leveraged by key decision makers. When we're doing business, it's going to be like, Hey, show me your scorecard. So I'm seeing the rating get baked more and more the lexicon of risk. But beyond the rating, the goal is really to make a world a safer place. Help transform and rise the tide. So all ships can lift. In order to do that, we have to help companies, not only identify the risk, but also rectify the risk. So there's tools we build to really understand the full risk. Like we talked about the inside, the outside, the fourth parties, fifth parties, the real ecosystem. Once we identified where are all the Fs and bad things, will then what? So couple things that we're doing. We've launched a pro serve arm to help companies. Now companies don't have to pay to fix the score. Anybody, like I said, can fix the score completely free of charge, but some companies need help. They ask us and they say, Hey, I'm looking for a trusted advisor. A Sherpa, a guide to get me to a better place or they'll say, Hey, I need some pen testing services. So we've augmented a service arm to help accelerate the remediation efforts. We're also partnered with different industries that use the rating as part of a larger picture. The cyber rating isn't the end all be all. When companies are assessing risk, they may be looking at a financial ratings, ESG ratings, KYC AML, cyber security, and they're trying to form a complete risk profile. So we go and we integrate into those decision points. Insurance companies, all the top insurers, re-insurers, brokers are leveraging SecurityScorecard as an ingredient to help underwrite for cyber liability insurance. It's not the only ingredient, but it helps them underwrite and identify the help and price the risk so they can push out a policy faster. First policy is usually the one that's signed. So time to quote is an important metric. We help to accelerate that. We partner with credit rating agencies like Fitch, who are talking to board members, who are asking, Hey, I need a third party, independent verification of what my CISO is saying. So the CISO is presenting the rating, but so are the proxy advisors and the ratings companies to the board. So we're helping to inform the boards and evolve how they're thinking about cyber risk. We're helping with the insurance space. I think that, like you said, we're only scratching the surface. I can see, today we have about 50,000 companies that are engaging a rating and there's no reason why it's not going to be in the millions in just the next couple years here. >> And you got the capability to bring in more telemetry and see the new things, bring that into the index, bring that into the scorecard and then map that to potential any vulnerabilities. >> Bingo. >> But like you said, the old days, when you were dating yourself, you were in a glass room with a door lock and key and you can see who's two folks in there having lunch, talking database. No one's going to get hurt. Now that's gone, right? So now you don't know who's out there and machines. So you got humans that you don't know and you got machines that are turning on and off services, putting containers out there. Who knows what's in those payloads. So a ton of surface area and complexity to weave through. I mean only is going to get done with automation. >> It's the only way. Part of our vision includes not attempting to make a faster questionnaire, but rid ourselves of the process all altogether and get more into the continuous assessment mindset. Now look, as a former CISO myself, I don't want another tool to log into. We already have 50 tools we log into every day. Folks don't need a 51st and that's not the intent. So what we've done is we've created today, an automation suite, I call it, set it and forget it. Like I'm probably dating myself, but like those old infomercials. And look, and you've got what? 50,000 vendors business partners. Then behind there, there's another a hundred thousand that they're using. How are you going to keep track of all those folks? You're not going to log in every day. You're going to set rules and parameters about the things that you care about and you care depending on the nature of the engagement. If we're exchanging sensitive data on the network layer, you might care about exposed database. If we're doing it on the app layer, you're going to look at application security vulnerabilities. So what our customers do is they go create rules that say, Hey, if any of these companies in my tier one critical vendor watch list, if they have any of these parameters, if the score drops, if they drop below a B, if they have these issues, pick these actions and the actions could be, send them a questionnaire. We can send the questionnaire for you. You don't have to send pen and paper, forget about it. You're going to open your email and drag the Excel spreadsheet. Those days are over. We're done with that. We automate that. You don't want to send a questionnaire, send a report. We have integrations, notify Slack, create a Jira ticket, pipe it to ServiceNow. Whatever system of record, system of intelligence, workflow tools companies are using, we write in and allow them to expedite the whole. We're trying to close the window. We want to close the window of the attack. And in order to do that, we have to bring the attention to the people as quickly as possible. That's not going to happen if someone logs in every day. So we've got the platform and then that automation capability on top of it. >> I love the vision. I love the utility of a scorecard, a verification mark, something that could be presented, credential, an image, social proof. To security and an ongoing way to monitor it, observe it, update it, add value. I think this is only going to be the beginning of what I would see as much more of a new way to think about credentialing companies. >> I think we're going to reach a point, John, where and some of our customers are already doing this. They're publishing their scorecard in the public domain, not with the technical details, but an abstracted view. And thought leaders, what they're doing is they're saying, Hey, before you send me anything, look at my scorecard securityscorecard.com/securityrating, and then the name of their company, and it's there. It's in the public domain. If somebody Googles scorecard for certain companies, it's going to show up in the Google Search results. They can mitigate probably 30, 40% of inbound requests by just pointing to that thing. So we want to give more of those tools, turn security from a reactive to a proactive motion. >> Great stuff, Sam. I love it. I'm going to make sure when you hit our site, our company, we've got camouflage sites so we can make sure you get the right ones. I'm sure we got some copyright dates. >> We can navigate the decoys. We can navigate the decoys sites. >> Sam, thanks for coming on. And looking forward to speaking more in depth on showcase that we have upcoming Amazon Startup Showcase where you guys are going to be presenting. But I really appreciate this conversation. Thanks for sharing what you guys are working on. We really appreciate. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much, John. Thank you for having me. >> Okay. This is theCUBE conversation here in Palo Alto, California. Coming in from New York city is the co-founder, chief operating officer of securityscorecard.com. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)