>> Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE. Covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone. We're here live in San Francisco for theCUBE's exclusive two days of coverage for Cisco Systems' inaugural event called DevNet Create extension. DevNet their classic developer program, for the Cisco install base of network routers. Now going to the cloud, native, going to the developer where dev-ops and the enterprise are connecting. I'm John Furrier, my cohost Peter Burris. Next is Dan Kohn, who is the Executive Director of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF. Formerly known as Kubecon. Which is the event, Kubecon.io. Dan, great to see you. Executive Director, how's business, is going good? >> Fantastic! (John laughs) Yeah, six months ago we chatted at our last event in Seattle. And it's just amazing to see the progress since then. Projects members. >> It's been a whirlwind. Even I can't keep track. You guys are announcing all these new projects. What's the current count of projects that you guys have under the Cloud Native Compute Foundation? >> So we're up to 10. I should definitely start with the fact that Kubernetes is the anchor 10 in our original project. In a lot of ways, foundation was setup around that. And that project is just continuing to do incredibly well. Where it's one of the highest velocity projects in the history of open source. In terms of number of authors, number of commits, poll requests, issues. But now we have a constellation of other projects that are in support of that one. It can be used in a lot of different ways. >> John: Yeah. >> That we've been adding in. >> We had Craig McLuckie on earlier. Now he's with Heptio. Again, when he was doing that work, at Google, back in the days with what's his name from Microsoft now. >> Peter: Brendan Burns. >> Brendan Burns, yeah. >> Now it's an interesting question, where you say, oh, wait a minute, the three sort of key people behind Kubernetes, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, who's his co-founder at Heptio, then Brendan Burns, they all left Google. Is this a bad sign for the project and the technology? >> John: No, I don't think so. >> And we would say it's a spectacularly good sign. Now, if they had left and said, ah you know, containers, I'm going to do virtual machines. But in fact they said, there's such an enormous market for this. And to have Microsoft and Azure step in and say, we really want to invest in this space and we want to bring on one of the co-founders, Brendan. And for the other two co-founders, say, hey Google is making a huge investment. But we also think there's an opportunity for independent venture funded startup. >> Craig is completely passionate about this because there is an interoperability ethos that's always been around the open web. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> And certainly open source has the same ethos. Cloud Native brings an interesting thing, and it's clear now to people that there's not going to be one cloud winning them all. >> It's a multi-could world. >> Dan: Right. >> How is the Cloud Native Foundation floating in the open source world? Is it gravitating towards more infrastructure, more edge, software edge? Are you guys kind of in the middle? Are you guys the glue layer? How do you view that? >> Sure. So one way of looking at what we're doing is, helping to build a stack of software. That allows you to run your applications either on bare metal in your own data center or on any of the public clouds. Or hybrid solution where you're mixing back and forth. But the key idea is that all the core parts of that are open source. They're supported by multiple different vendors. And what that means is, you get to avoid lock-it. So today, Amazon web services has some of the most extraordinary engineering. They have all these great services that make it very easy to go onboard. But if you build your whole architecture around that, then you're stuck with AWS forever. And when time goes up, time to renegotiate your contract in a year or two, you're back again and don't have a lot of leverage. Where we think AWS is fantastic platform to run Kubernetes, to run our other projects on top of. But we don't think you want to lock-in to those services to such a degree. >> Okay, when I'm on, first of all, pretend I'm Amazon, I'm a competitive strategist, lock-in, I got to get you locked-in. I'm just going to run Kubernetes on Amazon. Why don't I just do that? >> We think that's a great solution. >> John: You do? >> Heptio and lots other folks make it very easy to run Kubernetes on Amazon. But we also think you should at least look at Kubernetes on Bluemix, on Google, on Azure. And know that in the future when you're negotiation comes up, even if you never leave, you at least threaten to leave. That you're not locked into that one vendor forever. >> So if you think about how the cloud industry structure is starting to layout, you knew we were going to have IAAS. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> SAS has been around for quite sometime. >> Dan: Right. >> The big question is what happens with that platform as a service. >> The developer world. >> Dan: Yeah. Some people think it's going to end up in the IAS element. >> Dan: Umhmm. Some people end up in the SAS. If it ends up in the IAS, you got the lock-in. Do you see a world going forward where developers have their own place, where they go and build and create software independent of either target but then add it to the various platforms. Is that a direction that you think this is all going to end up in? >> I do. Our view is that Heroku, which really invented this platform as a service concept or popularized it. You do, get push Heroku and magically your application's up. And then Cloud Foundry which came along and created a open source version of that. Those were two building blocks. But the Cloud Native essentially taking that scenario and saying, hey, that continuous integration, continuous deployment pipeline, that ability to deploy your software dozens of times per day, that's an absolute table ante for being a modern company. Not just a software company but arguably every company today needs to be doing software development like that. And then Cloud Native is a whole set of infrastructure around that to allow you to, not just have that environment in development but also to push it into production. >> So compare and contrast, based on your vision >> Dan: Umhmm. >> of how things are going to play out. A developer spends her time today doing this, and in three years, she's going to spend her time doing that. Kind of give us a sense of how >> Dan: Sure. >> you think it's going to play out. >> The simplest way to say it is that, Docker came along a few years ago, and was incredibly transformative technology for software development. It solved this really basic problem that, you hire a new employee and does it take her an entire day or entire week to get her environment together. Or can she just copy over the document container and be ready to go. And so I would argue it had the fastest uptake of any developer technology in history. But now when you have all those pieces running, okay, that's great in development, how do you get it in production? And my goal is that in a few years, hopefully much sooner, that those developers that are getting the container, they're getting the different pieces of microservices working. And then it's this tiny little YAML file that just says, here's the requirements for my application, here's what kind of redundancy it needs, what is backend databases, other sorts of things. And they're deploying it up. For most developers they can get out of that business of dev-ops. Of having to worry about all those issues. Your dev-ops team can be so much more efficient cuz Kubernetes and the related platform really enables that. >> I got to ask you, I just Tweeted cuz I had, make sure I captured it. I'm blown away by your success on the sponsorship participation. And usually it's a sign of opportunity. Because there's money making to be made, having the big vendors in there. But the growth of Kubernetes as you mentioned, all the success, we're well aware of that. But you got a lot going on. You're like got the tiger by the tail, your hair's blown back, you're running as hard as you can. Why are you guys successful? What is your gut? As executive director, you got to have the 20 mile stare but you also implement the here and now. >> Dan: Sure. >> How are you rationalizing the success? >> The most important point is, there's not some sort of magic formula, that CNCF has done or the Linux Foundation. And we're just so much better promoting or marketing it. At the end of the day, it really comes down to the developers behind Kubernetes. They've built a tool that tons and tons of people want to use. And that leverages 15 years of work that Google has done on containerization. Work that IBM and Docker and all of our other member companies, RedHat, have put together. And now, I think tiger by the tail is the right analogy. That we just happen to be, luckily, do have the technology and the constellation technology that a lot of folks want to do. The biggest thing we're trying to deal with is, some of the challenges around scaling. There's over 17 hundred authors. Individual developers contributed to Kubernetes in the last 12 months. Trying to figure out how can we get good reviews of all their codes, better documentation. >> There is a secret formula if you look at it. In away, relevance is one of them. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> Being relevant and being an awesome technology. But what I want get your thoughts in is, I looked at Kubernetes right out of the gate and said, hmm, will this be a MapReduced moment for Google. >> Dan: Yeah. >> And interesting enough, they didn't pull the same move. They didn't just let Cloud Air, walk away with or someone. >> Dan: Right, exactly. >> They made sure that if they preserved it. Google kind of let MapReduced >> Dan: Yeah, I think-- >> on the side of the road. >> Dan: No, no, I think this-- >> Cloud Air ran with it. >> Google had something that they replaced it with. I mean the -- >> SPAN is pretty damn good. >> And that's an interesting thing because in a world of strategy, across technology, and this is related to this, is that it used to be, you define a process, and then let's call it the end level process, and then you would go off and you make it obsolete because you had something that was more efficient, more effective. And then you license the old technology. And that way, the industry built capacity around the old technology and you had the new, more efficient technology that drove your business forward. And I think that, I'm not saying that's exactly, I'm not saying that Google did that, that's the tremendous >> Google knew. >> effect it will have. >> John: I have sources that tell me that. I investigated this story three years ago or maybe four, maybe three years ago. Google had conversations going up to the Eric Schmidt level, and Larry Page level, do we keep Kubernetes, do we open source it? And it went all the way to the top. And they almost wanted, they were afraid of MapReduced. Because MapReduced was a lost opportunity. Now they made it up but-- >> Now I would argue that there's a slightly subtler decision they had to make, where they have this internal system board, that is just tons of engineering and analysis and improvement has gone into it. They wrote Kubernetes as essentially next generation version of that. I think they kind of had four paths. Craig McLuckie was one of the key people behind that. Where they could have made it a proprietary service that if you're a customer of Google cloud, you get access to it. That's essentially what Amazon and Elastic Container Services today. Or they could have said, hey, we're going to open source it but we're still keep control of it. Essentially that's the path they went with the Go language. Where lots of people use it, lots of people contribute to it, but it's Google who decides at the end of the day, which direction it goes. Or they could have gone and created a Kubernetes Foundation. And if they'd gone to the Linux Foundation and said, we want to create a Kubernetes Foundation, they absolutely could have and that would have been a home for it. But when you look at all the complementary technologies that have come in, they would never have gone into a Kubernetes Foundation. So instead, they really chose the most open path of saying, no we want to have a Cloud Native Computing Foundation. Have Kubernetes be the anchor tenant for it. But then have a place that companies like Mesophere with Mesos and Docker with Docker Swarm and other partners can come in and agree on something. So today, we're really pleased to announce the container network interface, just got accepted as our 10th project. And that's used by those and also by Cloud Foundry. And then they can disagree on others, about the orchestration- >> So it's a liberating move, really, if you think about it. Because at the time this happened, there was a lot of land grab talk going on. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> Until Amazon was winning big the hockey stick was going up. >> Dan: Right. You saw the numbers, and financial performance. But there was a fear of lock-in. To your point. >> Dan: Right, exactly. >> Then Kubernetes provides a nice layer. And you guys as a group, are looking holistically and saying, choice and multi-cloud. Is that the vision? >> Definitely. But, I mean you can see, strategically why Google decided to do it. Because if you pick an open source platform, and say, hey, this is the best of breed approach. Now, you're actually willing to evaluate the cloud on what the prices are, the supplementary services, et cetera. Where before that, you might have just said, ah, AWS is the safe service, I'm going just go with that. >> But Kubernetes is an invasive technology. And I don't mean that in a bad way. (Dan laughs) >> When you decide to move with Kubernetes, you are foreclosing other options at your disposal. And so, I think what you're saying is that, Google wanted to ensure that it remained a consistent coherent thing. While at the same time, making it obvious to all those around them that also wanted to invest in it, that their investments were going to be safe and sound going forward. >> I think that's fair but on the other hand, I do want to say that very few companies have moved their entire business and all of their IT over to Kubernetes. >> Peter: Oh, I'm not saying that they would. >> We do recommend that they start with a stable service. >> Peter: But Meso and some of those other companies are now investing in Kubernetes as a platform. Or making a bet on Kubernetes, want to make sure that their bets are as good as their company is. >> Sure. But there are other orchestration plateforms still. So Kubernetes has plenty of competition. And our biggest competition of course is Enertia. Of folks not changing into anything. >> I got to ask you a question. So Leonard, our producer is just telling me, Kubernetes is boring per Craig McLuckie. So Craig said earlier in theCUBE today, Kubernetes needs to be boring. He said his biggest problem with Kubernetes is it's too exciting right now. >> Dan: That's great. Now what he means by that is, he's kind of making a play on words but his point is, it should be obstracted away. >> Dan: Yeah. In terms of Kubernetes. But that's a problem you have. It's too exciting. >> Dan: Umhmm. What's your reaction to his comment that Kubernetes needs to be boring. >> He and I did a little Google trends comparison of Kubernetes and TensorFlow, which is another open source project out of Google. TensorFlow is something like three or four acts. And artificial intelligence is just so much more interesting and exciting. And yeah, I certainly would love to see a situation. We have this metaphor for Linux, with the Linux Foundation. That we describe it as plumbing. Where it's so intrinsic to almost every piece of technology in existence. And like plumbing, you'll get very upset when if it stops working. And you'll know it and you'll complain. But there's a huge piece of what we're trying to do which is the infrastructure to make things work. >> Here's an idea. Marketing idea. Just call it AI for containers. >> Dan: That's good. >> It'll be the hottest thing on the planet. >> Dan, great to-- >> Peter: Probably be more be more exciting. >> Dan, great to see you. Congratulations on your success. >> Yeah. So I do want to just make a quick mention December sixth through eighth is CloudNativeCon and KubeCon. It's our biggest annual conference. We're looking to actually triple in size from Seattle to three thousand people or more. We have every expert coming in. Michelle Noorali and Kelsey Hightower are the co-chairs and are going to be speaking there. We would love to see a lot of you guys. >> John: In Austin. >> In Austin. >> We hope you'll be there. >> TheCUBE will be there. >> We'll definitely be there. >> Dan: As well to ah, >> We've been to the inaugural >> Dan: Exactly. >> show for KubeCon and Cloud Native conference. We'll defintely be there. December sixth through the eighth, in December, in Austin. Great time of the year to be in Texas. Congratulations on all your success. And as Kubernetes and nine other projects continue to get traction. Still exciting times. And as they say, we live in interesting times. (Dan laughs) This is theCUBE with more interesting, exciting, not boring stuff coming back from the inaugural event here at Cisco DevNet Create. I'm John Ferrier, Peter Burris. Stay with us.

(light music) >> Hi everybody. Welcome to this Cube Conversation. I'm really pleased to announce a collaboration with Rob Strechay. He's a guest cube analyst, and we'll be working together to extract the signal from the noise. Rob is a long-time product pro, working at a number of firms including AWS, HP, HPE, NetApp, Snowplow. I did a stint as an analyst at Enterprise Strategy Group. Rob, good to see you. Thanks for coming into our Marlboro Studios. >> Well, thank you for having me. It's always great to be here. >> I'm really excited about working with you. We've known each other for a long time. You've been in the Cube a bunch. You know, you're in between gigs, and I think we can have a lot of fun together. Covering events, covering trends. So. let's get into it. What's happening out there? We're sort of exited the isolation economy. Things were booming. Now, everybody's tapping the brakes. From your standpoint, what are you seeing out there? >> Yeah. I'm seeing that people are really looking how to get more out of their data. How they're bringing things together, how they're looking at the costs of Cloud, and understanding how are they building out their SaaS applications. And understanding that when they go in and actually start to use Cloud, it's not only just using the base services anymore. They're looking at, how do I use these platforms as a service? Some are easier than others, and they're trying to understand, how do I get more value out of that relationship with the Cloud? They're also consolidating the number of Clouds that they have, I would say to try to better optimize their spend, and getting better pricing for that matter. >> Are you seeing people unhook Clouds, or just reduce maybe certain Cloud activities and going maybe instead of 60/40 going 90/10? >> Correct. It's more like the 90/10 type of rule where they're starting to say, Hey I'm not going to get rid of Azure or AWS or Google. I'm going to move a portion of this over that I was using on this one service. Maybe I got a great two-year contract to start with on this platform as a service or a database as a service. I'm going to unhook from that and maybe go with an independent. Maybe with something like a Snowflake or a Databricks on top of another Cloud, so that I can consolidate down. But it also gives them more flexibility as well. >> In our last breaking analysis, Rob, we identified six factors that were reducing Cloud consumption. There were factors and customer tactics. And I want to get your take on this. So, some of the factors really, you got fewer mortgage originations. FinTech, obviously big Cloud user. Crypto, not as much activity there. Lower ad spending means less Cloud. And then one of 'em, which you kind of disagreed with was less, less analytics, you know, fewer... Less frequency of calculations. I'll come back to that. But then optimizing compute using Graviton or AMD instances moving to cheaper storage tiers. That of course makes sense. And then optimize pricing plans. Maybe going from On Demand, you know, to, you know, instead of pay by the drink, buy in volume. Okay. So, first of all, do those make sense to you with the exception? We'll come back and talk about the analytics piece. Is that what you're seeing from customers? >> Yeah, I think so. I think that was pretty much dead on with what I'm seeing from customers and the ones that I go out and talk to. A lot of times they're trying to really monetize their, you know, understand how their business utilizes these Clouds. And, where their spend is going in those Clouds. Can they use, you know, lower tiers of storage? Do they really need the best processors? Do they need to be using Intel or can they get away with AMD or Graviton 2 or 3? Or do they need to move in? And, I think when you look at all of these Clouds, they always have pricing curves that are arcs from the newest to the oldest stuff. And you can play games with that. And understanding how you can actually lower your costs by looking at maybe some of the older generation. Maybe your application was written 10 years ago. You don't necessarily have to be on the best, newest processor for that application per se. >> So last, I want to come back to this whole analytics piece. Last June, I think it was June, Dev Ittycheria, who's the-- I call him Dev. Spelled Dev, pronounced Dave. (chuckles softly) Same pronunciation, different spelling. Dev Ittycheria, CEO of Mongo, on the earnings call. He was getting, you know, hit. Things were starting to get a little less visible in terms of, you know, the outlook. And people were pushing him like... Because you're in the Cloud, is it easier to dial down? And he said, because we're the document database, we support transaction applications. We're less discretionary than say, analytics. Well on the Snowflake earnings call, that same month or the month after, they were all over Slootman and Scarpelli. Oh, the Mongo CEO said that they're less discretionary than analytics. And Snowflake was an interesting comment. They basically said, look, we're the Cloud. You can dial it up, you can dial it down, but the area under the curve over a period of time is going to be the same, because they get their customers to commit. What do you say? You disagreed with the notion that people are running their calculations less frequently. Is that because they're trying to do a better job of targeting customers in near real time? What are you seeing out there? >> Yeah, I think they're moving away from using people and more expensive marketing. Or, they're trying to figure out what's my Google ad spend, what's my Meta ad spend? And what they're trying to do is optimize that spend. So, what is the return on advertising, or the ROAS as they would say. And what they're looking to do is understand, okay, I have to collect these analytics that better understand where are these people coming from? How do they get to my site, to my store, to my whatever? And when they're using it, how do they they better move through that? What you're also seeing is that analytics is not only just for kind of the retail or financial services or things like that, but then they're also, you know, using that to make offers in those categories. When you move back to more, you know, take other companies that are building products and SaaS delivered products. They may actually go and use this analytics for making the product better. And one of the big reasons for that is maybe they're dialing back how many product managers they have. And they're looking to be more data driven about how they actually go and build the product out or enhance the product. So maybe they're, you know, an online video service and they want to understand why people are either using or not using the whiteboard inside the product. And they're collecting a lot of that product analytics in a big way so that they can go through that. And they're doing it in a constant manner. This first party type tracking within applications is growing rapidly by customers. >> So, let's talk about who wins in that. So, obviously the Cloud guys, AWS, Google and Azure. I want to come back and unpack that a little bit. Databricks and Snowflake, we reported on our last breaking analysis, it kind of on a collision course. You know, a couple years ago we were thinking, okay, AWS, Snowflake and Databricks, like perfect sandwich. And then of course they started to become more competitive. My sense is they still, you know, compliment each other in the field, right? But, you know, publicly, they've got bigger aspirations, they get big TAMs that they're going after. But it's interesting, the data shows that-- So, Snowflake was off the charts in terms of spending momentum and our EPR surveys. Our partner down in New York, they kind of came into line. They're both growing in terms of market presence. Databricks couldn't get to IPO. So, we don't have as much, you know, visibility on their financials. You know, Snowflake obviously highly transparent cause they're a public company. And then you got AWS, Google and Azure. And it seems like AWS appears to be more partner friendly. Microsoft, you know, depends on what market you're in. And Google wants to sell BigQuery. >> Yeah. >> So, what are you seeing in the public Cloud from a data platform perspective? >> Yeah. I think that was pretty astute in what you were talking about there, because I think of the three, Google is definitely I think a little bit behind in how they go to market with their partners. Azure's done a fantastic job of partnering with these companies to understand and even though they may have Synapse as their go-to and where they want people to go to do AI and ML. What they're looking at is, Hey, we're going to also be friendly with Snowflake. We're also going to be friendly with a Databricks. And I think that, Amazon has always been there because that's where the market has been for these developers. So, many, like Databricks' and the Snowflake's have gone there first because, you know, Databricks' case, they built out on top of S3 first. And going and using somebody's object layer other than AWS, was not as simple as you would think it would be. Moving between those. >> So, one of the financial meetups I said meetup, but the... It was either the CEO or the CFO. It was either Slootman or Scarpelli talking at, I don't know, Merrill Lynch or one of the other financial conferences said, I think it was probably their Q3 call. Snowflake said 80% of our business goes through Amazon. And he said to this audience, the next day we got a call from Microsoft. Hey, we got to do more. And, we know just from reading the financial statements that Snowflake is getting concessions from Amazon, they're buying in volume, they're renegotiating their contracts. Amazon gets it. You know, lower the price, people buy more. Long term, we're all going to make more money. Microsoft obviously wants to get into that game with Snowflake. They understand the momentum. They said Google, not so much. And I've had customers tell me that they wanted to use Google's AI with Snowflake, but they can't, they got to go to to BigQuery. So, honestly, I haven't like vetted that so. But, I think it's true. But nonetheless, it seems like Google's a little less friendly with the data platform providers. What do you think? >> Yeah, I would say so. I think this is a place that Google looks and wants to own. Is that now, are they doing the right things long term? I mean again, you know, you look at Google Analytics being you know, basically outlawed in five countries in the EU because of GDPR concerns, and compliance and governance of data. And I think people are looking at Google and BigQuery in general and saying, is it the best place for me to go? Is it going to be in the right places where I need it? Still, it's still one of the largest used databases out there just because it underpins a number of the Google services. So you almost get, like you were saying, forced into BigQuery sometimes, if you want to use the tech on top. >> You do strategy. >> Yeah. >> Right? You do strategy, you do messaging. Is it the right call by Google? I mean, it's not a-- I criticize Google sometimes. But, I'm not sure it's the wrong call to say, Hey, this is our ace in the hole. >> Yeah. >> We got to get people into BigQuery. Cause, first of all, BigQuery is a solid product. I mean it's Cloud native and it's, you know, by all, it gets high marks. So, why give the competition an advantage? Let's try to force people essentially into what is we think a great product and it is a great product. The flip side of that is, they're giving up some potential partner TAM and not treating the ecosystem as well as one of their major competitors. What do you do if you're in that position? >> Yeah, I think that that's a fantastic question. And the question I pose back to the companies I've worked with and worked for is, are you really looking to have vendor lock-in as your key differentiator to your service? And I think when you start to look at these companies that are moving away from BigQuery, moving to even, Databricks on top of GCS in Google, they're looking to say, okay, I can go there if I have to evacuate from GCP and go to another Cloud, I can stay on Databricks as a platform, for instance. So I think it's, people are looking at what platform as a service, database as a service they go and use. Because from a strategic perspective, they don't want that vendor locking. >> That's where Supercloud becomes interesting, right? Because, if I can run on Snowflake or Databricks, you know, across Clouds. Even Oracle, you know, they're getting into business with Microsoft. Let's talk about some of the Cloud players. So, the big three have reported. >> Right. >> We saw AWSs Cloud growth decelerated down to 20%, which is I think the lowest growth rate since they started to disclose public numbers. And they said they exited, sorry, they said January they grew at 15%. >> Yeah. >> Year on year. Now, they had some pretty tough compares. But nonetheless, 15%, wow. Azure, kind of mid thirties, and then Google, we had kind of low thirties. But, well behind in terms of size. And Google's losing probably almost $3 billion annually. But, that's not necessarily a bad thing by advocating and investing. What's happening with the Cloud? Is AWS just running into the law, large numbers? Do you think we can actually see a re-acceleration like we have in the past with AWS Cloud? Azure, we predicted is going to be 75% of AWS IAS revenues. You know, we try to estimate IAS. >> Yeah. >> Even though they don't share that with us. That's a huge milestone. You'd think-- There's some people who have, I think, Bob Evans predicted a while ago that Microsoft would surpass AWS in terms of size. You know, what do you think? >> Yeah, I think that Azure's going to keep to-- Keep growing at a pretty good clip. I think that for Azure, they still have really great account control, even though people like to hate Microsoft. The Microsoft sellers that are out there making those companies successful day after day have really done a good job of being in those accounts and helping people. I was recently over in the UK. And the UK market between AWS and Azure is pretty amazing, how much Azure there is. And it's growing within Europe in general. In the states, it's, you know, I think it's growing well. I think it's still growing, probably not as fast as it is outside the U.S. But, you go down to someplace like Australia, it's also Azure. You hear about Azure all the time. >> Why? Is that just because of the Microsoft's software state? It's just so convenient. >> I think it has to do with, you know, and you can go with the reasoning they don't break out, you know, Office 365 and all of that out of their numbers is because they have-- They're in all of these accounts because the office suite is so pervasive in there. So, they always have reasons to go back in and, oh by the way, you're on these old SQL licenses. Let us move you up here and we'll be able to-- We'll support you on the old version, you know, with security and all of these things. And be able to move you forward. So, they have a lot of, I guess you could say, levers to stay in those accounts and be interesting. At least as part of the Cloud estate. I think Amazon, you know, is hitting, you know, the large number. Laws of large numbers. But I think that they're also going through, and I think this was seen in the layoffs that they were making, that they're looking to understand and have profitability in more of those services that they have. You know, over 350 odd services that they have. And you know, as somebody who went there and helped to start yet a new one, while I was there. And finally, it went to beta back in September, you start to look at the fact that, that number of services, people, their own sellers don't even know all of their services. It's impossible to comprehend and sell that many things. So, I think what they're going through is really looking to rationalize a lot of what they're doing from a services perspective going forward. They're looking to focus on more profitable services and bringing those in. Because right now it's built like a layer cake where you have, you know, S3 EBS and EC2 on the bottom of the layer cake. And then maybe you have, you're using IAM, the authorization and authentication in there and you have all these different services. And then they call it EMR on top. And so, EMR has to pay for that entire layer cake just to go and compete against somebody like Mongo or something like that. So, you start to unwind the costs of that. Whereas Azure, went and they build basically ground up services for the most part. And Google kind of falls somewhere in between in how they build their-- They're a sort of layer cake type effect, but not as many layers I guess you could say. >> I feel like, you know, Amazon's trying to be a platform for the ecosystem. Yes, they have their own products and they're going to sell. And that's going to drive their profitability cause they don't have to split the pie. But, they're taking a piece of-- They're spinning the meter, as Ziyas Caravalo likes to say on every time Snowflake or Databricks or Mongo or Atlas is, you know, running on their system. They take a piece of the action. Now, Microsoft does that as well. But, you look at Microsoft and security, head-to-head competitors, for example, with a CrowdStrike or an Okta in identity. Whereas, it seems like at least for now, AWS is a more friendly place for the ecosystem. At the same time, you do a lot of business in Microsoft. >> Yeah. And I think that a lot of companies have always feared that Amazon would just throw, you know, bodies at it. And I think that people have come to the realization that a two pizza team, as Amazon would call it, is eight people. I think that's, you know, two slices per person. I'm a little bit fat, so I don't know if that's enough. But, you start to look at it and go, okay, if they're going to start out with eight engineers, if I'm a startup and they're part of my ecosystem, do I really fear them or should I really embrace them and try to partner closer with them? And I think the smart people and the smart companies are partnering with them because they're realizing, Amazon, unless they can see it to, you know, a hundred million, $500 million market, they're not going to throw eight to 16 people at a problem. I think when, you know, you could say, you could look at the elastic with OpenSearch and what they did there. And the licensing terms and the battle they went through. But they knew that Elastic had a huge market. Also, you had a number of ecosystem companies building on top of now OpenSearch, that are now domain on top of Amazon as well. So, I think Amazon's being pretty strategic in how they're doing it. I think some of the-- It'll be interesting. I think this year is a payout year for the cuts that they're making to some of the services internally to kind of, you know, how do we take the fat off some of those services that-- You know, you look at Alexa. I don't know how much revenue Alexa really generates for them. But it's a means to an end for a number of different other services and partners. >> What do you make of this ChatGPT? I mean, Microsoft obviously is playing that card. You want to, you want ChatGPT in the Cloud, come to Azure. Seems like AWS has to respond. And we know Google is, you know, sharpening its knives to come up with its response. >> Yeah, I mean Google just went and talked about Bard for the first time this week and they're in private preview or I guess they call it beta, but. Right at the moment to select, select AI users, which I have no idea what that means. But that's a very interesting way that they're marketing it out there. But, I think that Amazon will have to respond. I think they'll be more measured than say, what Google's doing with Bard and just throwing it out there to, hey, we're going into beta now. I think they'll look at it and see where do we go and how do we actually integrate this in? Because they do have a lot of components of AI and ML underneath the hood that other services use. And I think that, you know, they've learned from that. And I think that they've already done a good job. Especially for media and entertainment when you start to look at some of the ways that they use it for helping do graphics and helping to do drones. I think part of their buy of iRobot was the fact that iRobot was a big user of RoboMaker, which is using different models to train those robots to go around objects and things like that, so. >> Quick touch on Kubernetes, the whole DevOps World we just covered. The Cloud Native Foundation Security, CNCF. The security conference up in Seattle last week. First time they spun that out kind of like reinforced, you know, AWS spins out, reinforced from reinvent. Amsterdam's coming up soon, the CubeCon. What should we expect? What's hot in Cubeland? >> Yeah, I think, you know, Kubes, you're going to be looking at how OpenShift keeps growing and I think to that respect you get to see the momentum with people like Red Hat. You see others coming up and realizing how OpenShift has gone to market as being, like you were saying, partnering with those Clouds and really making it simple. I think the simplicity and the manageability of Kubernetes is going to be at the forefront. I think a lot of the investment is still going into, how do I bring observability and DevOps and AIOps and MLOps all together. And I think that's going to be a big place where people are going to be looking to see what comes out of CubeCon in Amsterdam. I think it's that manageability ease of use. >> Well Rob, I look forward to working with you on behalf of the whole Cube team. We're going to do more of these and go out to some shows extract the signal from the noise. Really appreciate you coming into our studio. >> Well, thank you for having me on. Really appreciate it. >> You're really welcome. All right, keep it right there, or thanks for watching. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube. And we'll see you next time. (light music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Native SecurityCon North America 2023. Obviously, CUBE's coverage with our CUBE Center Report. We're not there on the ground, but we have folks and our CUBE Alumni there. We have entrepreneurs there. Of course, we want to be there in person, but we're remote. We've got Ben Hirschberg, CTO and Co-Founder of Armo, a cloud native security startup, well positioned in this industry. He's there in Seattle. Ben, thank you for coming on and sharing what's going on with theCUBE. >> Yeah, it's great to be here, John. >> So we had written on you guys up on SiliconANGLE. Congratulations on your momentum and traction. But let's first get into what's going on there on the ground? What are some of the key trends? What's the most important story being told there? What is the vibe? What's the most important story right now? >> So I think, I would like to start here with the I think the most important thing was that I think the event is very successful. Usually, the Cloud Native Security Day usually was part of KubeCon in the previous years and now it became its own conference of its own and really kudos to all the organizers who brought this up in, actually in a short time. And it wasn't really clear how many people will turn up, but at the end, we see a really nice turn up and really great talks and keynotes around here. I think that one of the biggest trends, which haven't started like in this conference, but already we're talking for a while is supply chain. Supply chain is security. I think it's, right now, the biggest trend in the talks, in the keynotes. And I think that we start to see companies, big companies, who are adopting themselves into this direction. There is a clear industry need. There is a clear problem and I think that the cloud native security teams are coming up with tooling around it. I think for right now we see more tools than adoption, but the adoption is always following the tooling. And I think it already proves itself. So we have just a very interesting talk this morning about the OpenSSL vulnerability, which was I think around Halloween, which came out and everyone thought that it's going to be a critical issue for the whole cloud native and internet infrastructure and at the end it turned out to be a lesser problem, but the reason why I think it was understood that to be a lesser problem real soon was that because people started to use (indistinct) store software composition information in the environment so security teams could look into, look up in their systems okay, what, where they're using OpenSSL, which version they are using. It became really soon real clear that this version is not adopted by a wide array of software out there so the tech surface is relatively small and I think it already proved itself that the direction if everyone is talking about. >> Yeah, we agree, we're very bullish on this move from the Cloud Native Foundation CNCF that do the security conference. Amazon Web Services has re:Invent. That's their big show, but they also have re:Inforce, the security show, so clearly they work together. I like the decoupling, very cohesive. But you guys have Kubescape of Kubernetes security. Talk about the conversations that are there and that you're hearing around why there's different event what's different around KubeCon and CloudNativeCon than this Cloud Native SecurityCon. It's not called KubeSucSecCon, it's called Cloud Native SecurityCon. What's the difference? Are people confused? Is it clear? What's the difference between the two shows? What are you hearing? >> So I think that, you know, there is a good question. Okay, where is Cloud Native Computing Foundation came from? Obviously everyone knows that it was somewhat coupled with the adoption of Kubernetes. It was a clear understanding in the industry that there are different efforts where the industry needs to come together without looking be very vendor-specific and try to sort out a lot of issues in order to enable adoption and bring great value and I think that the main difference here between KubeCon and the Cloud Native Security Conference is really the focus, and not just on Kubernetes, but the whole ecosystem behind that. The way we are delivering software, the way we are monitoring software, and all where Kubernetes is only just, you know, maybe the biggest clog in the system, but, you know, just one of the others and it gives great overview of what you have in the whole ecosystem. >> Yeah, I think it's a good call. I would add that what I'm hearing too is that security is so critical to the business model of every company. It's so mainstream. The hackers have a great business model. They make money, their costs are lower than the revenue. So the business of hacking in breaches, ransomware all over the place is so successful that they're playing offense, everyone's playing defense, so it's about time we can get focus to really be faster and more nimble and agile on solving some of these security challenges in open source. So I think that to me is a great focus and so I give total props to the CNC. I call it the event operating system. You got the security group over here decoupled from the main kernel, but they work together. Good call and so this brings back up to some of the things that are going on so I have to ask you, as your startup as a CTO, you guys have the Kubescape platform, how do you guys fit into the landscape and what's different from your tools for Kubernetes environments versus what's out there? >> So I think that our journey is really interesting in the solution space because I think that our mode really tries to understand where security can meet the actual adoption because as you just said, somehow we have to sort out together how security is going to be automated and integrated in its best way. So Kubescape project started as a Kubernetes security posture tool. Just, you know, when people are really early in their adoption of Kubernetes systems, they want to understand whether the installation is is secure, whether the basic configurations are look okay, and giving them instant feedback on that, both in live systems and in the CICD, this is where Kubescape came from. We started as an open source project because we are big believers of open source, of the power of open source security, and I can, you know I think maybe this is my first interview when I can say that Kubescape was accepted to be a CNCF Sandbox project so Armo was actually donating the project to the CNCF, I think, which is a huge milestone and a great way to further the adoption of Kubernetes security and from now on we want to see where the users in Armo and Kubescape project want to see where the users are going, their Kubernetes security journey and help them to automatize, help them to to implement security more fast in the way the developers are using it working. >> Okay, if you don't mind, I want to just get clarification. What's the difference between the Armo platform and Kubescape because you have Kubescape Sandbox project and Armo platform. Could you talk about the differences and interaction? >> Sure, Kubescape is an open source project and Armo platform is actually a managed platform which runs Kubescape in the cloud for you because Kubescape is part, it has several parts. One part is, which is running inside the Kubernetes cluster in the CICD processes of the user, and there is another part which we call the backend where the results are stored and can be analyzed further. So Armo platform gives you managed way to run the backend, but I can tell you that backend is also, will be available within a month or two also for everyone to install on their premises as well, because again, we are an open source company and we are, we want to enable users, so the difference is that Armo platform is a managed platform behind Kubescape. >> How does Kubescape differ from closed proprietary sourced solutions? >> So I can tell you that there are closed proprietary solutions which are very good security solutions, but I think that the main difference, if I had to pick beyond the very specific technicalities is the worldview. The way we see that our user is not the CISO. Our user is not necessarily the security team. From our perspective, the user is the DevOps and the developers who are working on the Kubernetes cluster day to day and we want to enable them to improve their security. So actually our approach is more developer-friendly, if I would need to define it very shortly. >> What does this risk calculation score you guys have in Kubscape? That's come up and we cover that in our story. Can you explain to the folks how that fits in? Is it Kubescape is the platform and what's the benefit, what's the purpose? >> So the risk calculation is actually a score we are giving to clusters in order for the users to understand where they are standing in the general population, how they are faring against a perfect hardened cluster. It is based on the number of different tests we are making. And I don't want to go into, you know, the very specifics of the mathematical functions, but in general it takes into account how many functions are failing, security tests are failing inside your cluster. How many nodes you are having, how many workloads are having, and creating this number which enables you to understand where you are standing in the global, in the world. >> What's the customer value that you guys pitching? What's the pitch for the Armo platform? When you go and talk to a customer, are they like, "We need you." Do they come to you? Is it word of mouth? You guys have a strategy? What's the pitch? What's so appealing to the customers? Why are they enthusiastic about you guys? >> So John, I can tell you, maybe it's not so easy to to say the words, but I nearly 20 years in the industry and though I've been always around cyber and the defense industry and I can tell you that I never had this journey where before where I could say that the the customers are coming to us and not we are pitching to customers. Simply because people want to, this is very easy tool, very very easy to use, very understandable and it very helps the engineers to improve security posture. And they're coming to us and they're saying, "Well, awesome, okay, how we can like use it. Do you have a graphical interface?" And we are pointing them to the Armor platform and they are falling in love and coming to us even more and we can tell you that we have a big number of active users behind the platform itself. >> You know, one of the things that comes up every time at KubeCon and Cloud NativeCon when we're there, and we'll be in Amsterdam, so folks watching, you know, we'll see onsite, developer productivity is like the number one thing everyone talks about and security is so important. It's become by default a blocker or anchor or a drag on productivity. This is big, the things that you're mentioning, easy to use, engineering supporting it, developer adoption, you know we've always said on theCUBE, developers will be the de facto standards bodies by their choices 'cause developers make all the decisions. So if I can go faster and I can have security kind of programmed in, I'm not shifting left, it's just I'm just having security kind of in there. That's the dream state. Is that what you guys are trying to do here? Because that's the nirvana, everyone wants to do that. >> Yeah, I think your definition is like perfect because really we had like this, for a very long time we had this world where we decoupled security teams from developers and even for sometimes from engineering at all and I think for multiple reasons, we are more seeing a big convergence. Security teams are becoming part of the engineering and the engineering becoming part of the security and as you're saying, okay, the day-to-day world of developers are becoming very tangled up in the good way with security, so the think about it that today, one of my developers at Armo is creating a pull request. He's already, code is already scanned by security scanners for to test for different security problems. It's already, you know, before he already gets feedback on his first time where he's sharing his code and if there is an issue, he already can solve it and this is just solving issues much faster, much cheaper, and also you asked me about, you know, the wipe in the conference and we know no one can deny the current economic wipe we have and this also relates to security teams and security teams has to be much more efficient. And one of the things that everyone is talking, okay, we need more automation, we need more, better tooling and I think we are really fitting into this. >> Yeah, and I talked to venture capitalists yesterday and today, an angel investor. Best time for startup is right now and again, open source is driving a lot of value. Ben, it's been great to have you on and sharing with us what's going on on the ground there as well as talking about some of the traction you have. Just final question, how old's the company? How much funding do you have? Where you guys located? Put a plug in for the company. You guys looking to hire? Tell us about the company. Were you guys located? How much capital do you have? >> So, okay, the company's here for three years. We've passed a round last March with Tiger and Hyperwise capitals. We are located, most of the company's located today in Israel in Tel Aviv, but we have like great team also in Ukraine and also great guys are in Europe and right now also Craig Box joined us as an open source VP and he's like right now located in New Zealand, so we are a really global team, which I think it's really helps us to strengthen ourselves. >> Yeah, and I think this is the entrepreneurial equation for the future. It's really great to see that global. We heard that in Priyanka Sharma's keynote. It's a global culture, global community. >> Right. >> And so really, really props you guys. Congratulations on Armo and thanks for coming on theCUBE and sharing insights and expertise and also what's happening on the ground. Appreciate it, Ben, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. >> Okay, cheers. Okay, this is CUB coverage here of the Cloud Native SecurityCon in North America 2023. I'm John Furrier for Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante. We're back with more of wrap up of the event after this short break. (gentle upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Greetings, brilliant community and thank you so much for tuning in to theCUBE here for the last three days where we've been live from Detroit, Michigan. I've had the pleasure of spending this week with Lisa Martin and John Furrier. Thank you both so much for hanging out, for inviting me into the CUBE family. It's our first show together, it's been wonderful. >> Thank you. >> You nailed it. >> Oh thanks, sweetheart. >> Great job. Great job team, well done. Free wall to wall coverage, it's what we do. We stay till everyone else-- >> Savannah: 100 percent. >> Everyone else leaves, till they pull the plug. >> Lisa: Till they turn the lights out. We're still there. >> Literally. >> Literally last night. >> Still broadcasting. >> Whatever takes to get the stories and get 'em out there at scale. >> Yeah. >> Great time. >> 33. 33 different segments too. Very impressive. John, I'm curious, you're a trend watcher and you've been at every single KubeCon. >> Yep. >> What are the trends this year? Give us the breakdown. >> I think CNCF does this, it's a hard job to balance all the stakeholders. So one, congratulations to the CNCF for another great KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. It is really hard to balance bringing in the experts who, as time goes by, seven years we've been all of, as you said, you get experts, you get seniority, and people who can be mentors, 60% new people. You have vendors who are sponsoring and there's always people complaining and bitching and moaning. They want this, they want that. It's always hard and they always do a good job of balancing it. We're lucky that we get to scale the stories with CUBE and that's been great. We had some great stories here, but it's a great community and again, they're inclusive. As I've said before, we've talked about it. This year though is an inflection point in my opinion, because you're seeing the developer ecosystem growing so fast. It's global. You're seeing events pop up, you're seeing derivative events. CNCF is at the center point and they have to maintain the culture of developer experts, maintainers, while balancing the newbies. And that's going to be >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. really hard. And they've done a great job. We had a great conversation with them. So great job. And I think it's going to continue. I think the attendance metric is a little bit of a false positive. There's a lot of online people who didn't come to Detroit this year. And I think maybe the combination of the venue, the city, or just Covid preferences may not look good on paper, on the numbers 'cause it's not a major step up in attendance. It's still bigger, but the community, I think, is going to continue to grow. I'm bullish on it. >> Yeah, I mean at least we did see double the number of people that we had in Los Angeles. Very curious. I think Amsterdam, where we'll be next with CNCF in the spring, in April. I think that's actually going to be a better pulse check. We'll be in Europe, we'll see what's going on. >> John: Totally. >> I mean, who doesn't like Amsterdam in the springtime? Lisa, what have been some of your observations? >> Oh, so many observations. The evolution of the conference, the hallway track conversations really shifting towards adjusting to the enterprise. The enterprise momentum that we saw here as well. We had on the show, Ford. >> Savannah: Yes. We had MassMutual, we had ING, that was today. Home Depot is here. We are seeing all these big companies that we know and love, become software companies right before our eyes. >> Yeah. Well, and I think we forget that software powers our entire world. And so of course they're going to have to be here. So much running on Kubernetes. It's on-prem, it's at the edge, it's everywhere. It's exciting. Woo, I'm excited. John, what do you think is the number one story? This is your question. I love asking you this question. What is the number one story out KubeCon? >> Well, I think the top story is a combination of two things. One is the evolution of Cloud Native. We're starting to see web assembly. That's a big hyped up area. It got a lot of attention. >> Savannah: Yeah. That's kind of teething out the future. >> Savannah: Rightfully so. The future of this kind of lightweight. You got the heavy duty VMs, you got Kubernetes and containers, and now this web assembly, shows a trajectory of apps, server-like environment. And then the big story is security. Software supply chain is, to me, was the number one consistent theme. At almost all the interviews, in the containers, and the workflows, >> Savannah: Very hot. software supply chain is real. The CD Foundation mentioned >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. >> they had 16,000 vulnerabilities identified in their code base. They were going to automate that. So again, >> Savannah: That was wild. >> That's the top story. The growth of open source exposes potential vulnerabilities with security. So software supply chain gets my vote. >> Did you hear anything that surprised you? You guys did this great preview of what you thought we were going to hear and see and feel and touch at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2022. You talked about, for example, the, you know, healthcare financial services being early adopters of this. Anything surprise either one of you in terms of what you predicted versus what we saw? Savannah, let's start with you. >> You know what really surprised me, and this is ironic, so I'm a community gal by trade. But I was really just impressed by the energy that everyone brought here and the desire to help. The thing about the open source community that always strikes me is, I mean 187 different countries participating. You've got, I believe it's something like 175,000 people contributing to the 140 projects plus that CNCF is working on. But that culture of collaboration extends far beyond just the CNCF projects. Everyone here is keen to help each other. We had the conversation just before about the teaching and the learnings that are going on here. They brought in Detroit's students to come and learn, which is just the most heartwarming story out of this entire thing. And I think it's just the authenticity of everyone in this community and their passion. Even though I know it's here, it still surprises me to see it in the flesh. Especially in a place like Detroit. >> It's nice. >> Yeah. >> It's so nice to see it. And you bring up a good point. It's very authentic. >> Savannah: It's super authentic. >> I mean, what surprised me is one, the Wasm, or web assembly. I didn't see that coming at the scale of the conversation. It sucked a lot of options out of the room in my opinion, still hyped up. But this looks like it's got a good trajectory. I like that. The other thing that surprised me that was a learning was my interview with Solo.io, Idit, and Brian Gracely, because he's a CUBE alumni and former host of theCUBE, and analyst at Wikibon, was how their go-to-market was an example of a modern company in Covid with a clean sheet of paper and smart people, they're just doing things different. They're in Slack with their customers. And I walked away with, "Wow that's like a playbook that's not, was never, in the go-to-market VC-backed company playbook." I thought that was, for me, a personal walk away saying that's important. I like how they did that. And there's a lot of companies I think could learn from that. Especially as the recession comes where partnering with customers has always been a top priority. And how they did that was very clever, very effective, very efficient. So I walked away with that saying, "I think that's going to be a standard." So that was a pleasant surprise. >> That was a great surprise. Also, that's a female-founded company, which is obviously not super common. And the growth that they've experienced, to your point, really being catalyzed by Covid, is incredibly impressive. I mean they have some massive brand name customers, Amex, BMW for example. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> Great point. >> And I interviewed her years ago and I remember saying to myself, "Wow, she's impressive." I liked her. She's a player. A player for sure. And she's got confidence. Even on the interview she said, "We're just better, we have better product." And I just like the point of view. Very customer-focused but confident. And I just took, that's again, a great company. And again, I'm not surprised that Brian Gracely left Red Hat to go work there. So yeah, great, great call there. And of course other things that weren't surprising that I predicted, Red Hat continued to invest. They continue to bring people on theCUBE, they support theCUBE but more importantly they have a good strategy. They're in that multicloud positioning. They're going to have an opportunity to get a bite at the apple. And I what I call the supercloud. As enterprises try to go and be mainstream, Cloud Native, they're going to need some help. And Red Hat is always has the large enterprise customers. >> Savannah: What surprised you, Lisa? >> Oh my gosh, so many things. I think some of the memorable conversations that we had. I love talking with some of the enterprises that we mentioned, ING Bank for example. You know, or institutions that have been around for 100 plus years. >> Savannah: Oh, yeah. To see not only how much they've innovated and stayed relevant to meet the demands of the consumer, which are only increasing, but they're doing so while fostering a culture of innovation and a culture that allows these technology leaders to really grow within the organization. That was a really refreshing conversation that I think we had. 'Cause you can kind of >> Savannah: Absolutely. think about these old stodgy companies. Nah, of course they're going to digitize. >> Thinking about working for the bank, I think it's boring. >> Right? >> Yeah. And they were talking about, in fact, those great t-shirts that they had on, >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. were all about getting more people to understand how fun it is to work in tech for ING Bank in different industries. You don't just have to work for the big tech companies to be doing really cool stuff in technology. >> What I really liked about this show is we had two female hosts. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> How about that? Come on. >> Hey, well done, well done on your recruitment there, champ. >> Yes, thank you boss. (John laughs) >> And not to mention we have a really all-star production team. I do just want to give them a little shout out. To all the wonderful folks behind the lines here. (people clapping) >> John: Brendan. Good job. >> Yeah. Without Brendan, Anderson, Noah, and Andrew, we would be-- >> Of course Frank Faye holding it back there too. >> Yeah, >> Of course, Frank. >> I mean, without the business development wheels on the ship we'd really be in an unfortunate spot. I almost just swore on television. We're not going to do that. >> It's okay. No one's regulating. >> Yeah. (all laugh) >> Elon Musk just took over Twitter. >> It was a close call. >> That's right! >> It's going to be a hellscape. >> Yeah, I mean it's, shit's on fire. So we'll just see what happens next. I do, I really want to talk about this because I think it's really special. It's an ethos and some magic has happened here. Let's talk about Detroit. Let's talk about what it means to be here. We saw so many, and I can't stress this enough, but I think it really matters. There was a commitment to celebrating place here. Lisa, did you notice this too? >> Absolutely. And it surprised me because we just don't see that at conferences. >> Yeah. We're so used to going to the same places. >> Right. >> Vegas. Vegas, Vegas. More Vegas. >> Your tone-- >> San Francisco >> (both laugh) sums up my feelings. Yes. >> Right? >> Yeah. And, well, it's almost robotic but, and the fact that we're like, oh Detroit, really? But there was so much love for this city and recognizing and supporting its residents that we just don't see at conferences. You uncovered a lot of that with your swag-savvy segments, >> Savannah: Yeah. >> And you got more of that to talk about today. >> Don't worry, it's coming. Yeah. (laughs) >> What about you? Have you enjoyed Detroit? I know you hadn't been here in a long time, when we did our intro session. >> I think it's a bold move for the CNCF to come here and celebrate. What they did, from teaching the kids in the city some tech, they had a session. I thought that was good. >> Savannah: Loved that. I think it was a risky move because a lot of people, like, weren't sure if they were going to fly to Detroit. So some say it might impact the attendance. I thought they did a good job. Their theme, Road Ahead. Nice tie in. >> Savannah: Yeah. And so I think I enjoyed Detroit. The weather was great. It didn't rain. Nice breeze outside. >> Yeah. >> The weather was great, the restaurants are phenomenal. So Detroit's a good city. I missed some hockey games. I'd love to see the Red Wings play. Missed that game. But we always come back. >> I think it's really special. I mean, every time I talked to a company about their swag, that had sourced it locally, there was a real reason for this story. I mean even with Kasten in that last segment when I noticed that they had done Carhartt beanies, Carhartt being a Michigan company. They said, "I'm so glad you noticed. That's why we did it." And I think that type of, the community commitment to place, it all comes back to community. One of the bigger themes of the show. But that passion and that support, we need more of that. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> And the thing about the guests we've had this past three days have been phenomenal. We had a diverse set of companies, individuals come on theCUBE, you know, from Scott Johnston at Docker. A really one on one. We had a great intense conversation. >> Savannah: Great way to kick it off. >> We shared a lot of inside baseball, about Docker, super important company. You know, impressed with companies like Platform9 it's been around since the OpenStack days who are now in a relevant position. Rafi Systems, hot startup, they don't have a lot of resources, a lot of guerilla marketing going on. So I love to see the mix of startups really contributing. The big players are here. So it's a real great mix of companies. And I thought the interviews were phenomenal, like you said, Ford. We had, Kubia launched on theCUBE. >> Savannah: Yes. >> That's-- >> We snooped the location for KubeCon North America. >> You did? >> Chicago, everyone. In case you missed it, Bianca was nice enough to share that with us. >> We had Sarbjeet Johal, CUBE analyst came on, Keith Townsend, yesterday with you guys. >> We had like analyst speed dating last night. (all laugh) >> How'd that go? (laughs) >> It was actually great. One of the things that they-- >> Did they hug and kiss at the end? >> Here's the funny thing is that they were debating the size of the CNC app. One thinks it's too big, one thinks it's too small. And I thought, is John Goldilocks? (John laughs) >> Savannah: Yeah. >> What is John going to think about that? >> Well I loved that segment. I thought, 'cause Keith and Sarbjeet argue with each other on Twitter all the time. And I heard Keith say before, he went, "Yeah let's have it out on theCUBE." So that was fun to watch. >> Thank you for creating this forum for us to have that kind of discourse. >> Lisa: Yes, thank you. >> Well, it wouldn't be possible without the sponsors. Want to thank the CNCF. >> Absolutely. >> And all the ecosystem partners and sponsors that make theCUBE possible. We love doing this. We love getting the stories. No story's too small for theCUBE. We'll go with it. Do whatever it takes. And if it wasn't for the sponsors, the community wouldn't get all the great knowledge. So, and thank you guys. >> Hey. Yeah, we're, we're happy to be here. Speaking of sponsors and vendors, should we talk a little swag? >> Yeah. >> What do you guys think? All right. Okay. So now this is becoming a tradition on theCUBE so I'm very delighted, the savvy swag segment. I do think it's interesting though. I mean, it's not, this isn't just me shouting out folks and showing off t-shirts and socks. It's about standing out from the noise. There's a lot of players in this space. We got a lot of CNCF projects and one of the ways to catch the attention of people walking the show floor is to have interesting swag. So we looked for the most unique swag on Wednesday and I hadn't found this yet, but I do just want to bring it up. Oops, I think I might have just dropped it. This is cute. Is, most random swag of the entire show goes to this toothbrush. I don't really have more in terms of the pitch there because this is just random. (Lisa laughs) >> But so, everyone needs that. >> John: So what's their tagline? >> And you forget these. >> Yeah, so the idea was to brush your cloud bills. So I think they're reducing the cost of-- >> Kind of a hygiene angle. >> Yeah, yeah. Very much a hygiene angle, which I found a little ironic in this crowd to be completely honest with you. >> John: Don't leave the lights on theCUBE. That's what they say. >> Yeah. >> I mean we are theCUBE so it would be unjust of me not to show you a Rubik's cube. This is actually one of those speed cubes. I'm not going to be able to solve this for you with one hand on camera, but apparently someone did it in 17 seconds at the booth. Knowing this audience, not surprising to me at all. Today we are, and yesterday, was the t-shirt contest. Best t-shirt contest. Today we really dove into the socks. So this is, I noticed this trend at KubeCon in Los Angeles last year. Lots of different socks, clouds obviously a theme for the cloud. I'm just going to lay these out. Lots of gamers in the house. Not surprising. Here on this one. >> John: Level up. >> Got to level up. I love these 'cause they say, "It's not a bug." And anyone who's coded has obviously had to deal with that. We've got, so Star Wars is a huge theme here. There's Lego sets. >> John: I think it's Star Trek. But. >> That's Star Trek? >> John: That's okay. >> Could be both. (Lisa laughs) >> John: Nevermind, I don't want to. >> You can flex your nerd and geek with us anytime you want, John. I don't mind getting corrected. I'm all about, I'm all about the truth. >> Star Trek. Star Wars. Okay, we're all the same. Okay, go ahead. >> Yeah, no, no, this is great. Slim.ai was nice enough to host us for dinner on Tuesday night. These are their lovely cloud socks. You can see Cloud Native, obviously Cloud Native Foundation, cloud socks, whole theme here. But if we're going to narrow it down to some champions, I love these little bee elephants from Raft. And when I went up to these guys, I actually probably would've called these my personal winner. They said, again, so community focused and humble here at CNCF, they said that Wiz was actually the champion according to the community. These unicorn socks are pretty excellent. And I have to say the branding is flawless. So we'll go ahead and give Wiz the win on the best sock contest. >> John: For the win. >> Yeah, Wiz for the win. However, the thing that I am probably going to use the most is this really dope Detroit snapback from Kasten. So I'm going to be rocking this from now on for the rest of the segment as well. And I feel great about this snapback. >> Looks great. Looks good on you. >> Yeah. >> Thanks John. (John laughs) >> So what are we expecting between now and KubeCon in Amsterdam? >> Well, I think it's going to be great to see how they, the European side, it's a chill show. It's great. Brings in the European audience from the global perspective. I always love the EU shows because one, it's a great destination. Amsterdam's going to be a great location. >> Savannah: I'm pumped. >> The American crowd loves going over there. All the event cities that they choose are always awesome. I missed Valencia cause I got Covid. I'm really bummed about that. But I love the European shows. It's just a little bit, it's high intensity, but it's the European chill. They got a little bit more of that siesta vibe going on. >> Yeah. >> And it's just awesome. >> Yeah, >> And I think that the mojo that carried throughout this week, it's really challenging to not only have a show that's five days, >> but to go through all week, >> Savannah: Seriously. >> to a Friday at 4:00 PM Eastern Time, and still have the people here, the energy and all the collaboration. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> The conversations that are still happening. I think we're going to see a lot more innovation come spring 2023. >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. >> Yeah. >> So should we do a bet, somebody's got to buy dinner? Who, well, I guess the folks who lose this will buy dinner for the other one. How many attendees do you think we'll see in Amsterdam? So we had 4,000, >> Oh, I'm going to lose this one. >> roughly in Los Angeles. Priyanka was nice enough to share with us, there was 8,000 here in Detroit. And I'm talking in person, we're not going to meddle this with the online. >> 6500. >> Lisa: I was going to say six, six K. >> I'm going 12,000. >> Ooh! >> I'm going to go ahead and go big I'm going to go opposite Price Is Right. >> One dollar. >> Yeah. (all laugh) That's exactly where I was driving with it. I'm going, I'm going absolutely all in. I think the momentum here is building. I think if we look at the numbers from-- >> John: You could go Family Feud >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. And they mentioned that they had 11,000 people who have taken their Kubernetes course in that first year. If that's a benchmark and an indicator, we've got the veteran players here. But I do think that, I personally think that the hype of Kubernetes has actually preceded adoption. If you look at the data and now we're finally tipping over. I think the last two years we were on the fringe and right now we're there. It's great. (voice blares loudly on loudspeaker) >> Well, on that note (all laugh) On that note, actually, on that note, as we are talking, so I got to give cred to my cohosts. We deal with a lot of background noise here on theCUBE. It is a live show floor. There's literally someone on an e-scooter behind me. There's been Pong going on in the background. The sound will haunt the three of us for the rest of our lives, as well as the production crew. (Lisa laughs) And, and just as we're sitting here doing this segment last night, they turned the lights off on us, today they're letting everyone know that the event is over. So on that note, I just want to say, Lisa, thank you so much. Such a warm welcome to the team. >> Thank you. >> John, what would we do without you? >> You did an amazing job. First CUBE, three days. It's a big show. You got staying power, I got to say. >> Lisa: Absolutely. >> Look at that. Not bad. >> You said it on camera now. >> Not bad. >> So you all are stuck with me. (all laugh) >> A plus. Great job to the team. Again, we do so much flow here. Brandon, Team, Andrew, Noah, Anderson, Frank. >> They're doing our hair, they're touching up makeup. They're helping me clean my teeth, staying hydrated. >> We look good because of you. >> And the guests. Thanks for coming on and spending time with us. And of course the sponsors, again, we can't do it without the sponsors. If you're watching this and you're a sponsor, support theCUBE, it helps people get what they need. And also we're do a lot more segments around community and a lot more educational stuff. >> Savannah: Yeah. So we're going to do a lot more in the EU and beyond. So thank you. >> Yeah, thank you. And thank you to everyone. Thank you to the community, thank you to theCUBE community and thank you for tuning in, making it possible for us to have somebody to talk to on the other side of the camera. My name is Savannah Peterson for the last time in Detroit, Michigan. Thanks for tuning into theCUBE. >> Okay, we're done. (bright upbeat music)

>>Good afternoon, friends. My name is Savannah Peterson here in the Cube Studios live from Detroit, Michigan, where we're at Cuban and Cloud Native Foundation, Cloud Native Con all week. Our last interview of the day served me a real treat and one that I wasn't expecting. It turns out that I am in the presence of two caddies. It's a literal episode of Caddy Shack up here on Cube. John Furrier. I don't think the audience knows that you were a caddy. Tell us about your caddy days. >>I used to caddy when I was a kid at the local country club every weekend. This is amazing. Double loops every weekend. Make some bang, two bags on each shoulder. Caddying for the members where you're going. Now I'm >>On show. Just, just really impressive >>Now. Now I'm caddying for the cube where I caddy all this great content out to the audience. >>He's carrying the story of emerging brands and established companies on their cloud journey. I love it. John, well played. I don't wanna waste any more of this really wonderful individual's time, but since we now have a new trend of talking about everyone's Twitter handle here on the cube, this may be my favorite one of the day, if not Q4 so far. Drew, not reply. AKA Drew ne Drew Nielsen, excuse me, there is here with us from Teleport. Drew, thanks so much for being here. >>Oh, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. >>And so you were a caddy on a whole different level. Can you tell us >>About that? Yeah, so I was in university and I got tired after two years and didn't have a car in LA and met a pro golfer at a golf course and took two years off and traveled around caddying for him and tried to get 'em through Q School. >>This is, this is fantastic. So if you're in school and your parents are telling you to continue going to school, know that you can drop out and be a caddy and still be a very successful television personality. Like both of the gentlemen at some point. >>Well, I never said my parents like >>That decision, but we'll keep our day jobs. Yeah, exactly. And one of them is Cloud Native Security. The hottest topic here at the show. Yep. I want to get into it. You guys are doing some really cool things. Are we? We hear Zero Trust, you know, ransomware and we even, I even talked with the CEO of Dockets morning about container security issues. Sure. There's a lot going on. So you guys are in the middle of teleport. You guys have a unique solution. Tell us what you guys got going on. What do you guys do? What's the solution and what's the problem you solve? >>So Teleport is the first and only identity native infrastructure access solution in the market. So breaking that down, what that really means is identity native being the combination of secret list, getting rid of passwords, Pam Vaults, Key Vaults, Yeah. Passwords written down. Basically the number one source of breach. And 50 to 80% of breaches, depending on whose numbers you want to believe are how organizations get hacked. >>But it's not password 1 23 isn't protecting >>Cisco >>Right >>Now. Well, if you think about when you're securing infrastructure and the second component being zero trust, which assumes the network is completely insecure, right? But everything is validated. Resource to resource security is validated, You know, it assumes work from anywhere. It assumes the security comes back to that resource. And we take the combination of those two into identity, native access where we cryptographically ev, validate identity, but more importantly, we make an absolutely frictionless experience. So engineers can access infrastructure from anywhere at any time. >>I'm just flashing on my roommates, checking their little code, changing Bob login, you know, dongle essentially, and how frustrating that always was. I mean, talk about interrupting workflow was something that's obviously necessary, but >>Well, I mean, talk about frustration if I'm an engineer. Yeah, absolutely. You know, back in the day when you had these three tier monolithic applications, it was kind of simple. But now as you've got modern application development environments Yeah, multi-cloud, hybrid cloud, whatever marketing term around how you talk about this, expanding sort of disparate infrastructure. Engineers are sitting there going from system to system to machine to database to application. I mean, not even a conversation on Kubernetes yet. Yeah. And it's just, you know, every time you pull an engineer or a developer to go to a vault to pull something out, you're pulling them out for 10 minutes. Now, applications today have hundreds of systems, hundreds of microservices. I mean 30 of these a day and nine minutes, 270 minutes times 60. And they also >>Do the math. Well, there's not only that, there's also the breach from manual error. I forgot to change the password. What is that password? I left it open, I left it on >>Cognitive load. >>I mean, it's the manual piece. But even think about it, TR security has to be transparent and engineers are really smart people. And I've talked to a number of organizations who are like, yeah, we've tried to implement security solutions and they fail. Why? They're too disruptive. They're not transparent. And engineers will work their way around them. They'll write it down, they'll do a workaround, they'll backdoor it something. >>All right. So talk about how it works. But I, I mean, I'm getting the big picture here. I love this. Breaking down the silos, making engineers lives easier, more productive. Clearly the theme, everyone they want, they be gonna need. Whoever does that will win it all. How's it work? I mean, you deploying something, is it code, is it in line? It's, >>It's two binaries that you download and really it starts with the core being the identity native access proxy. Okay. So that proxy, I mean, if you look at like the zero trust principles, it all starts with a proxy. Everything connects into that proxy where all the access is gated, it's validated. And you know, from there we have an authorization engine. So we will be the single source of truth for all access across your entire infrastructure. So we bring machines, engineers, databases, applications, Kubernetes, Linux, Windows, we don't care. And we basically take that into a single architecture and single access platform that essentially secures your entire infrastructure. But more importantly, you can do audit. So for all of the organizations that are dealing with FedRAMP, pci, hipaa, we have a complete audit trail down to a YouTube style playback. >>Oh, interesting. We're we're California and ccpa. >>Oh, gdpr. >>Yeah, exactly. It, it, it's, it's a whole shebang. So I, I love, and John, maybe you've heard this term a lot more than I have, but identity native is relatively new to me as as a term. And I suspect you have a very distinct way of defining identity. How do you guys define identity internally? >>So identity is something that is cryptographically validated. It is something you have. So it's not enough. If you look at, you know, credentials today, everyone's like, Oh, I log into my computer, but that's my identity. No, it's not. Right. Those are attributes. Those are something that is secret for a period of time until you write it down. But I can't change my fingerprint. Right. And now I >>Was just >>Thinking of, well no, perfect case in point with touch ID on your meth there. Yeah. It's like when we deliver that cryptographically validated identity, we use these secure modules in like modern laptops or servers. Yeah. To store that identity so that even if you're sitting in front of your computer, you can't get to it. But more importantly, if somebody were to take that and try to be you and try to log in with your fingerprint, it's >>Not, I'm not gonna lie, I love the apple finger thing, you know, it's like, you know, space recognition, like it's really awesome. >>It save me a lot of time. I mean, even when you go through customs and they do the face scan now it actually knows who you are, which is pretty wild in the last time you wanna provide ones. But it just shifted over like maybe three months ago. Well, >>As long as no one chops your finger off like they do in the James Bond movies. >>I mean, we try and keep it a light and fluffy here on the queue, but you know, do a finger teams, we can talk about that >>Too. >>Gabby, I was thinking more minority report, >>But you >>Knows that's exactly what I, what I think of >>Hit that one outta bounds. So I gotta ask, because you said you're targeting engineers, not IT departments. What's, is that, because I in your mind it is now the engineers or what's the, is always the solution more >>Targeted? Well, if you really look at who's dealing with infrastructure on a day-to-day basis, those are DevOps individuals. Those are infrastructure teams, Those are site reliability engineering. And when it, they're the ones who are not only managing the infrastructure, but they're also dealing with the code on it and everything else. And for us, that is who is our primary customer and that's who's doing >>It. What's the biggest problem that you're solving in this use case? Because you guys are nailing it. What's the problem that your identity native solution solves? >>You know, right out of the backs we remove the number one source of breach. And that is taking passwords, secrets and, and keys off the board. That deals with most of the problem right there. But there are really two problems that organizations face. One is scaling. So as you scale, you get more secrets, you get more keys, you get all these things that is all increasing your attack vector in real time. Oh >>Yeah. Across teams locations. I can't even >>Take your pick. Yeah, it's across clouds, right? Any of it >>On-prem doesn't. >>Yeah. Any of it. We, and we allow you to scale, but do it securely and the security is transparent and your engineers will absolutely love it. What's the most important thing about this product Engineers. Absolutely. >>What are they saying? What are some of those examples? Anecdotally, pull boats out from engineering. >>You're too, we should have invent, we should have invented this ourselves. Or you know, we have run into a lot of customers who have tried to home brew this and they're like, you know, we spend an in nor not of hours on it >>And IT or they got legacy from like Microsoft or other solutions. >>Sure, yeah. Any, but a lot of 'em is just like, I wish I had done it myself. Or you know, this is what security should be. >>It makes so much sense and it gives that the team such a peace of mind. I mean, you never know when a breach is gonna come, especially >>It's peace of mind. But I think for engineers, a lot of times it deals with the security problem. Yeah. Takes it off the table so they can do their jobs. Yeah. With zero friction. Yeah. And you know, it's all about speed. It's all about velocity. You know, go fast, go fast, go fast. And that's what we enable >>Some of the benefits to them is they get to save time, focus more on, on task that they need to work on. >>Exactly. >>And get the >>Job done. And on top of it, they answer the audit and compliance mail every time it comes. >>Yeah. Why are people huge? Honestly, why are people doing this? Because, I mean, identity is just such an hard nut to crack. Everyone's got their silos, Vendors having clouds have 'em. Identity is the most fragmented thing on >>The planet. And it has been fragmented ever since my first RSA conference. >>I know. So will we ever get this do over? Is there a driver? Is there a market force? Is this the time? >>I think the move to modern applications and to multi-cloud is driving this because as those application stacks get more verticalized, you just, you cannot deal with the productivity >>Here. And of course the next big thing is super cloud and that's coming fast. Savannah, you know, You know that's Rocket. >>John is gonna be the thought leader and keyword leader of the word super cloud. >>Super Cloud is enabling super services as the cloud cast. Brian Gracely pointed out on his Sunday podcast of which if that happens, Super Cloud will enable super apps in a new architectural >>List. Please don't, and it'll be super, just don't. >>Okay. Right. So what are you guys up to next? What's the big hot spot for the company? What are you guys doing? What are you guys, What's the idea guys hiring? You put the plug in. >>You know, right now we are focused on delivering the best identity, native access platform that we can. And we will continue to support our customers that want to use Kubernetes, that want to use any different type of infrastructure. Whether that's Linux, Windows applications or databases. Wherever they are. >>Are, are your customers all of a similar DNA or are you >>No, they're all over the map. They range everything from tech companies to financial services to, you know, fractional property. >>You seem like someone everyone would need. >>Absolutely. >>And I'm not just saying that to be a really clean endorsement from the Cube, but >>If you were doing DevOps Yeah. And any type of forward-leaning shift, left engineering, you need us because we are basically making security as code a reality across your entire infrastructure. >>Love this. What about the team dna? Are you in a scale growth stage right now? What's going on? Absolutely. Sounds I was gonna say, but I feel like you would have >>To be. Yeah, we're doing, we're, we have a very positive outlook and you know, even though the economic time is what it is, we're doing very well meeting. >>How's the location? Where's the location of the headquarters now? With remote work is pretty much virtual. >>Probably. We're based in downtown Oakland, California. >>Woohoo. Bay area representing on this stage right now. >>Nice. Yeah, we have a beautiful office right in downtown Oakland and yeah, it's been great. Awesome. >>Love that. And are you hiring right now? I bet people might be. I feel like some of our cube watchers are here waiting to figure out their next big play. So love to hear that. Absolutely love to hear that. Besides Drew, not reply, if people want to join your team or say hello to you and tell you how brilliant you looked up here, or ask about your caddy days and maybe venture a guest to who that golfer may have been that you were CAD Inc. For, what are the best ways for them to get in touch with you? >>You can find me on LinkedIn. >>Great. Fantastic. John, anything else >>From you? Yeah, I mean, I just think security is paramount. This is just another example of where the innovation has to kind of break through without good identity, everything could cripple. Then you start getting into the silos and you can start getting into, you know, tracking it. You got error user errors, you got, you know, one of the biggest security risks. People just leave systems open, they don't even know it's there. So like, I mean this is just, just identity is the critical linchpin to, to solve for in security to me. And that's totally >>Agree. We even have a lot of customers who use us just to access basic cloud consoles. Yeah. >>So I was actually just gonna drive there a little bit because I think that, I'm curious, it feels like a solution for obviously complex systems and stacks, but given the utility and what sounds like an extreme ease of use, I would imagine people use this for day-to-day stuff within their, >>We have customers who use it to access their AWS consoles. We have customers who use it to access Grafana dashboards. You know, for, since we're sitting here at coupon accessing a Lens Rancher, all of the amazing DevOps tools that are out there. >>Well, I mean true. I mean, you think about all the reasons why people don't adopt this new federated approach or is because the IT guys did it and the world we're moving into, the developers are in charge. And so we're seeing the trend where developers are taking the DevOps and the data and the security teams are now starting to reset the guardrails. What's your >>Reaction to that? Well, you know, I would say that >>Over the top, >>Well I would say that you know, your DevOps teams and your infrastructure teams and your engineers, they are the new king makers. Yeah. Straight up. Full stop. >>You heard it first folks. >>And that's >>A headline right >>There. That is a headline. I mean, they are the new king makers and, but they are being forced to do it as securely as possible. And our job is really to make that as easy and as frictionless as possible. >>Awesome. >>And it sounds like you're absolutely nailing it. Drew, thank you so much for being on the show. Thanks for having today. This has been an absolute pleasure, John, as usual a joy. And thank all of you for tuning in to the Cube Live here at CU Con from Detroit, Michigan. We look forward to catching you for day two tomorrow.

>>Hello everyone. My name is Savannah Peterson, coming to you live from the Kim Con Show floor on the cube here in Detroit, Michigan. The energy is pulsing big event for the Cloud Native Foundation, and I'm joined by John Furrier on my left. John. Hello. >>Great, great, great to have you on the cube. Thanks for being our new host. You look great, Great segment coming up. I'm looking forward to this. Savannah, this is a great segment. A cube alumni, an OG in the cloud, native world or cloud aati. I, as I call it, been there, done that. A lot of respect, a lot of doing some really amazing, I call it the super cloud holy grail. But we'll see >>Your favorite word, >>This favorite word, It's a really strong segment. Looking forward to hearing from this guest. >>Yes, I am very excited and I'm gonna let him tee it up a little bit. But our guest and his project were actually mentioned in the opening keynote this morning, which is very, very exciting. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Baam Tobar Baam, thanks for being here with >>Us. Thank you guys. So good to be back here on the show and, and this exciting energy around us. So it was super, super awesome to be here. >>Yeah, it feels great. So let's start with the opening keynote. Did you know you were gonna get that shout out? >>No, not at all. I, it was, it was really cool to see, you know, I think Cruz was up there talking about how they were building their own platform for autonomous cars and what's running behind it. And they mentioned all these projects and you know, we were like, Wow, that sounds super familiar. And then, then, and then they said, Okay, yeah, we we're, you know, cross plane. They mentioned cross plane, they mentioned, Upbound mentioned the work that we're doing in this space to help folks effectively run, you know, their own layer on top of cloud computing. >>And then Tom, we've known each other, >>We're gonna do a bingo super cloud. So how many times is this Super cloud? So >>Super Cloud is super services, super apps around us. He enables a lot of great things that Brian Grace had a great podcast this week on super services. So it's super, super exciting, >>Super great time on the queue. Super, >>Super >>Cloud conversation. All seriously. Now we've known each other for a long time. You've been to every cub com, you've been in open source, you've seen the seen where it's been, where it is now. Super exciting that in mainstream conversations we're talking about super cloud extractions and around interoperability. Things that were once like really hard to do back, even back on the opens stack days. Now we're at a primetime spot where the control plane, the data planes are in play as a viable architectural component of all the biggest conversations. Yeah, you're in the middle of it. What's your take on it? Give some perspective of why this is so important. >>I mean, look, the key here is to standardize, right? Get to standardization, right? And, and what we saw, like early days of cloud native, it was mostly around Kubernetes, but it was Kubernetes as a, you know, essentially a container orchestrator, the container of wars, Docker, Mesos, et cetera. And then Kubernetes emerged as a, a, the winner in containers, right? But containers is a workload, one kind of workload. It's, I run containers on it, not everything's containers, right? And the, you know, what we're seeing now is the Kubernetes API is emerging as a way to standardize on literally everything in cloud. Not just containers, but you know, VMs, serverless, Lambda, et cetera, storage databases that all using a common approach, a common API layer, a common way to do access control, a common way to do policy, all built around open source projects and you know, the cloud data of ecosystem that you were seeing around here. And that's exciting cuz we've, for the first time we're arriving at some kind of standardization. >>Every major inflection point has this defacto standard evolution, then it becomes kind of commonplace. Great. I agree with Kubernetes. The question I wanted to ask you is what's the impact to the DevOps community? DevSecOps absolutely dominated the playbook, if you will. Developers we're saying we'll run companies cuz they'll be running the applications. It's not a department anymore. Yes, it is the business. If you believe the digital transformation finds its final conclusion, which it will at some point. So more developers doing more, ask more stuff. >>Look, if you, I'd be hard pressed to find somebody that's has a title of DevOps or SRE that can't at least spell Kubernetes, if not running in production, right? And so from that perspective, I think this is a welcome change. Standardize on something that's already familiar to everyone is actually really powerful. They don't have to go, Okay, we learned Kubernetes, now you guys are taking us down a different path of standardization. Or something else has emerged. It's the same thing. It's like we have what, eight years now of cloud native roughly. And, and people in the DevOps space welcome a change where they are basically standardizing on things that are working right? They're actually working right? And they could be used in more use cases, in more scenarios than they're actually, you know, become versatile. They become, you know, ubiquitous as >>You will take a minute to just explain what you guys are selling and doing. What's the product, what's the traction, why are people using you? What's the big, big mo position value statement you guys think? >>Yeah, so, so, so the, my company's called Upbound and where the, where the folks behind the, the cross plane project and cross plane is effective, takes Kubernetes and extends it to beyond containers and to ev managing everything in cloud, right? So if you think about that, if you love the model where you're like, I, I go to Kubernetes cluster and I tell it to run a bunch of containers and it does it for me and I walk away, you can do that for the rest of the surface area of cloud, including your VMs and your storage and across cloud vendors, hybrid models, All of it works in a consistent standardized way, you know, using crossline, right? And I found >>What do you solve? What do you solve or eliminate? What happens? Why does this work? Are you replacing something? Are you extracting away something? Are you changing >>Something? I think we're layering on top of things that people have, right? So, so you'll see people are organized differently. We see a common pattern now where there's shared services teams or platform teams as you hear within enterprises that are responsible for basically managing infrastructure and offering a self-service experience to developers, right? Those teams are all about standardization. They're all about creating things that help them reduce the toil, manage things in a common way, and then offer self-service abstractions to their, you know, developers and customers. So they don't have to be in the middle of every request. Things can go faster. We're seeing a pattern now where the, these teams are standardizing on the Kubernetes API or standardizing on cross plane and standardizing on things that make their life easier, right? They don't have to replace what they're doing, they just have to layer and use it. And I layer it's probably a, an opening for you that makes it sound >>More complex, I think, than what you're actually trying to do. I mean, you as a company are all about velocity as an ethos, which I think is great. Do you think that standardization is the key in increasing velocity for teams leveraging both cross claim, Kubernetes? Anyone here? >>Look, I mean, everybody's trying to achieve the same thing. Everybody wants to go faster, they want to innovate faster. They don't want tech to be the friction to innovation, right? Right. They want, they wanna go from feature to production in minutes, right? And so, or less to that extent, standardization is a way to achieve that. It's not the only way to achieve that. It's, it's means to achieve that. And if you've standardized, that means that less people are involved. You can automate more, you can st you can centralize. And by doing that, that means you can innovate faster. And if you don't innovate these days, you're in trouble. Yeah. You're outta business. >>Do you think that, so Kubernetes has a bit of a reputation for complexity. You're obviously creating a tool that makes things easier as you apply Kubernetes outside just an orchestration and container environment. Do you, what do you see those advantages being across the spectrum of tools that people are leveraging you >>For? Yeah, I mean, look, if Kubernetes is a platform, right? To build other things on top of, and as a, as a result, it's something that's used to kind of on the back end. Like you would never, you should put something in front of Kubernetes as an application model or consumption interface of portals or Right, Yeah. To give zero teams. But you should still capture all your policies, you know, automation and compliance governance at the Kubernetes layer, right? At the, or with cross plane at that layer as well, right? Right. And so if you follow that model, you can get the best of world both worlds. You standardize, you centralize, you are able to have, you know, common controls and policies and everything else, but you can expose something that's a dev friendly experience on top of as well. So you get the both, both the best of both worlds. >>So the problem with infrastructure is code you're saying is, is that it's not this new layer to go across environments. Does that? No, >>Infrastructure is code works slightly differently. I mean, you, you can, you can write, you know, infrastructures, codes using whatever tooling you like to go across environments. The problem with is that everybody has to learn a specific language or has to work with understanding the constructs. There's the beauty of the Kubernetes based approach and the cross playing best approach is that it puts APIs first, right? It's basically saying, look, kind of like the API meant that it, that led to AWS being created, right? Teams should interact with APIs. They're super strong contracts, right? They're visionable. Yeah. And if you, if you do that and that's kind of the power of this approach, then you can actually reach a really high level of automation and a really high level of >>Innovation. And this also just not to bring in the clouds here, but this might bring up the idea that common services create interoperability, but yet the hyper scale clouds could still differentiate on value very much faster processors if it's silicon to better functions if glam, right? I mean, so there's still, it's not killing innovation. >>It is not, And in fact I, you know, this idea of building something that looks like the lowest common denominator across clouds, we don't actually see that in practice, right? People want, people want to use the best services available to them because they don't have time to go, you know, build portability layers and everything else. But they still, even in that model want to standardize on how to call these services, how to set policy on them, how to set access control, how to actually invoke them. If you can standardize on that, you can still, you get the, you get to use these services and you get the benefits of standardization. >>Well Savannah, we were talking about this, about the Berkeley paper that came out in May, which is kind of a super cloud version they call sky computing. Their argument is that if you try to standardize too much like the old kind of OSI model back in the day, you actually gonna, the work innovations gonna stunt the growth. Do you agree with that? And how do you see, because standardization is not so much a spec and it it, it e f thing. It's not an i e committee. Yeah. It's not like that's kind of standard. It's more of defacto, >>I mean look, we've had standards emerge like, you know, if you look at my S SQL for example, and the Postgres movement, like there are now lots of vendors that offer interfaces that support Postgres even though they're differentiated completely on how it's implement. So you see that if you can stick to open interfaces and use services that offer them that tons of differentiation yet still, you know, some kind of open interface if you will. But there are also differentiated services that are, don't have open interfaces and that's okay too. As long as you're able to kind of find a way to manage them in a consistent way. I think you sh and it makes sense to your business, you should use >>Them. So enterprises like this and just not to get into the business model side real quick, but like how you guys making money? You got the project, you get the cross playing project, that's community. You guys charging what's, what's the business model? >>We we're in the business of helping people adopt and run controlled lanes that do all this management service managed service services and customer support and services, the, the plethora of things that people need where we're >>Keeping the project while >>Keeping the project. >>Correct. So that's >>The key. That's correct. Yeah. You have to balance both >>And you're all over the show. I mean, outside of the keynote mention looking here, you have four events on where can people find you if they're tuning in. We're just at the beginning and there's a lot of looks here. >>Upbound at IO is the place to find Upbound and where I have a lot of talks, you'll see Crossline mention and lots of talks and a number of talks today. We have a happy hour later today we've got a booth set up. So >>I'll be there folks. Just fyi >>And everyone will be there now. Yeah. Quick update. What's up? What's new with the cross plane project? Can you share a little commercial? What's the most important stories going on there? >>So cross plane is growing obviously, and we're seeing a ton of adoption of cross plane, especially actually in large enterprise, which is really exciting cuz they're usually the slow to move and cross plane is so central, so it's now in hundreds and thousands of deployments in woohoo, which is amazing to see. And so the, the project itself is adding a ton of features, reducing friction in terms of adoption, how people ride these control planes and alter them coverage of the space. As you know, controls are only useful when you connect them to things. And the space is like the amount of things you can connect control planes to is increasing on a day to day basis and the maturity is increasing. So it's just super exciting to see all of this right >>Now. How would you categorize the landscape? We were just talking earlier in another segment, we're in Detroit Motor City, you know, it's like teaching someone how to drive a car. Kubernetes pluss, okay, switch the gears like, you know, don't hit the other guy. You know? Now once you learn how to drive, they want a sports car. How do you keep them that progression going? How do you keep people to grow continuously? Where do you see the DevOps and or folks that are doing cross playing that are API hardcore? Cause that's a good IQ that shows 'em that they're advancing. Where's the IQ level of advancement relative to the industry? Is the adoption just like, you know, getting going? Are people advancing? Yeah. Sounds like your customers are heavily down the road on >>Yeah, the way I would describe it is there's a progression happening, right? It, it DevOps was make, initially it was like how do I keep things running right? And it transitioned to how do I automate things so that I don't have to be involved when things are running, running. Right now we're seeing a next turn, which is how do I build what looks like a product that offers shared services or a platform so that people consume it like a product, right? Yeah. And now I'm now transition becomes, well I'm an, I'm a developer on a product in operations building something that looks like a product and thinking about it as a, as a has a user interface. >>Ops of the new devs. >>That's correct. Yeah. There we go. >>Talk about layers. Talk about layers on layers on >>Layers. It's not confusing at all John. >>Well, you know, when they have the architecture architectural list product that's coming. Yeah. But this is what's, I mean the Debs are got so much DevOps in the front and the C I C D pipeline, the ops teams are now retrofitting themselves to be data and security mainly. And that's just guardrails, automation policy, seeing a lot of that kind of network. Like exactly. >>Function. >>Yep. And they're, they're composing, not maybe coding a little bit, but they not, they're not >>Very much. They're in the composition, you know that as a daily thing. They're, they're writing compositions, they're building things, they're putting them together and making them work. >>How new is this in your mind? Cause you, you've watching this progress, you're in the middle of it, you're in the front wave of this. Is it adopting faster now than ever before? I mean, if we talked five years ago, we were kind of saying this might happen, but it wasn't happening today. It kind, it is, >>It's kind of, it's kind of amazing. Like, like everybody's writing these cloud services now. Everybody's authoring things that look like API services that do things on top of the structure. That move is very much, has a ton of momentum right now and it's happening mainstream. It, it's becoming mainstream. >>Speaking of momentum, but some I saw both on your LinkedIn as well as on your badge today that you are hiring. This is your opportunity to shamelessly plug. What are you looking for? What can people expect in terms of your company culture? >>Yeah, so we're obviously hiring, we're hiring both on the go to market side or we're hiring on the product and engineering side. If you want to build, well a new cloud platform, I won't say the word super cloud again, but if you want to, if you're excited about building a cloud platform that literally sits on top of, you know, the other cloud platforms and offers services on top of this, come talk to us. We're building something amazing. >>You're creating a super cloud tool kit. I'll say it >>On that note, think John Farer has now managed to get seven uses of the word super cloud into this broadcast. We sawm tomorrow. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's been a pleasure. I can't wait to see more of you throughout the course of Cuban. My name is Savannah Peterson, everyone, and thank you so much for joining us here on the Cube where we'll be live from Detroit, Michigan all week.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to this Cube special presentation of Cube On CloudStartups with AWS Showcase. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. This session is the accelerate digital transformation and simplify AWS with autonomous cloud operations with Venkat Krishnamachari, who's the CEO and co-founder here with me on remote. Venkat, good to see you. >> Great to see you, John. >> So this is a session on, essentially DAY2 operations. Something that we've been covering on theCUBE as you know, for a long time. But the big trend is as DevOps becomes much more mainstream, intelligent applications or agile applications, have to connect with intelligent infrastructure and your company MontyCloud has the solution that literally turns IT pros into cloud powerhouses as you guys say, it's your tagline. This is a super important area. I want to get your thoughts and showcase what you guys are doing as one of the hot 10 startups. Thanks for coming on. So take a minute to explain real quick. What is MontyCloud all about? >> Great, thank you again for the opportunity. Hey everybody, I'm Venkat Krishnamachari. I represent mandate team at MontyCloud. We are an intelligent cloud management platform company. What we help customers do, is we help them simplify their cloud operations so they can go innovate and develop intelligent applications. Our platform is called DAY2, because everything after the day one of going to Cloud, needs a lot of expertise and we decided that's a fun area to go solve for our customers. We solve everything on starting DAY2 from simplifying provisioning, to management, to operations, to autonomous cloud operations. Our platform does this for our customers so they can innovate faster and they can close the cloud skills gap that is required to empower the developers. >> Venkat, I want to get your thoughts on DAY2 operations. There's been a trend that people talk about for a long time. As people move to the cloud and see the economic advantage of certainly with COVID-19, the market has said, "Hey, if you're on cloud native, you win." Andy Jassy at re:Invent last Keynote really laid out how companies can be proficient in becoming cloud-scale advantages. One of them was have expertise in cloud. So everyone is kind of doing that. You're starting to see enterprises all build the muscle for cloud operations. That's day one, they get started. Then that's kind of the challenges and the opportunities kick in when you have to continue in production. You have things that go on in the software. The underlying scaling infrastructure needs to be scaled out or all these kinds of things happen. This is what DAY2 is all about, keeping track of and maintaining high availability, uptime and keep the cost structure in line. This is what people discover. If they don't think properly about the architecture, they have huge problems. You guys solve this problem. Could you explain why this is important. >> Sure thing, John. So cloud operations, as you described, it's a continuous operations and continuous improvement in cloud environments. What efficient cloud operations does for customers is it accelerates innovation, reduces the risk, and more importantly, all the period of time that they are using their applications in the cloud, which is future, reduces the total cost of cloud operations. This is important because there is a huge gap in cloud skills. The surface area of cloud that customers need to manage is growing by the day. And most importantly, developers are increasingly and rightfully so, getting a seat at the table in defining and accelerating company's cloud journey. Which means, now they're proposing, microservices based application, container based application. Traditional applications are still in the mix. Now the surface area becomes a challenge for the IT operators to manage. That's why it's very important to start right. See, we ask this question to our customers. Having listened to our customers as hundreds of them, one thing is clear, when we ask this question to our customers, ever wonder why and how large scale companies like AWS are able to deliver massively scalable services and operate massive data centers with fewer people? Because it's automation. And it's important to think about, as you scale, automate a way things that must be automated, eliminate undifferentiated heavy lifting and help your developers move fast. All of this is vital in the day and age we live in, John. >> Yeah, I want to double down on that because I think this idea of integrating into operations is a critical key point for where success and failure kind of happen. We've seen with cloud, certainly IT departments and enterprise is going okay, cost optimization, check. Get cloud native, getting the cloud, lift and shift, I thought it through, I put some stuff in the cloud and then they go great, now I need resilience. I need resiliency, and I want to make sure things are now working okay, water flowing through the pipes, cloud's working. Then they say, "Well this is good, I got to need to integrate in with my own premises or edge or other things that are happening." Then they try to integrate into their core operations. McKinsey calls this the value driver three, integrating into core operators. We heard from them earlier in the program here at this event. This is key, it's not trivial to integrate cloud into your operations. This is what DAY2 and beyond is all about. Talk more about that. >> Yeah, that's a great point. And that's something that we've been working with customers to hands-on help learn and build it for them, right? So the acceleration of cloud adoption during the pandemic and ongoing adoption, it's going to shift the software security compliance and operational landscape dramatically. There's no escaping it. Cloud operations will no longer be an afterthought. DevOps will integrate with CloudOps. It'll provide a seamless feedback loop so that a box can be found sooner, fixed sooner, and uptime can be guaranteed. I'll give an example. One of our customers is a university. During the pandemic, their core examination application went down and they couldn't fix it on time because of lack of resources. For them, it's vital to have adopted cloud operations sooner but the runway they had was very little. Fortunately, we had the solution for them there. Within a week, they were able to take their entire on-prem application online, not just take the application but provide an autonomous cloud operations layer to their existing IT team with our platform, upscale them, and then about 14,000 students took their exams without any disruption. Now this customer and customers such as themselves have come to expect that level of integrated cloud operations into their application portfolio. It's important to address that with a platform that simplifies it. >> Venkat, real quick. Define, what is autonomous CloudOps platform? What does that mean? >> So let's take an example here, right? Customers who are trying to move an existing workload to cloud bring a traditional set of application. Then customers who are born in the cloud build microservices or server less based applications. Then there is containers. Now, all three the person surface areas that customers, particularly the IT teams have to manage. With the growing surface area, with the adoption of infrastructure as core, it becomes more nuanced to think about, how do we simplify? And in simplification comes automation. When a developer provision certain resource, previously, they used to be filing a ticket. Central IT team has to respond. Developers don't want that anymore. They want to innovate faster but at the same time Central IT team wants to have some governance in play. The best way to get out of the way of developers is automating it. And providing autonomous cloud operations means developers can deploy newer workloads faster, but with a level of guaranteed guardrail on security compliance and costs that sets them free. This is what we mean by autonomous cloud operations, closing the gap in skills, closing the gap in tooling, empowering your developers without thinking about the traditional model but enabling them to do things that's more in a rapid pace. That's what we mean by autonomous cloud operations. >> You had a great market opportunity. I think this is obviously a no brainer. As people say in the industry "cloud is scale is proven". Even post COVID if people don't have a cloud growth strategy they're pretty much going to be toast. McKinsey calls this a trillion dollar at a minimum not including potential new use cases, new pioneering applications coming. So pretty much, well the verdict is there, this is cloud. I got to ask you about MontyCloud as you guys have a business. Give or take a quick minute to explain the business of MontyCloud, some vitals or how people buy the product, the business model. Take a quick minute to explain MontyCloud business. >> Sure thing. John, see, our entire goal is to simplify cloud operations. Because what we learned is what seems to be complex about cloud adoption is that everybody is expected to be an expert on everything in the new era, but most teams are not ready to run efficient cloud operations at scale, as the cloud footprint is growing. This means we have to redefine certain conversations here. We talk directly to infrastructure architects, cloud architects, application owners. And in general, we talk to people who are leading their IT digital transformation for their companies. What we are enabling our customers is, they must demand that the traditional operation model must change to enable newer application patterns. For this, we are expecting customers want to standardize things, right? IT leaders are beginning to say, "All right, I got to standardize my provisioning, standardize my operations, reduce the heavy lifting that comes with infrastructure's code, and enable the business team and the application team to work closely together." The best way to do that is to go solve this problem with automation. So our platform is able to go help such customers, particularly leaders who demand digital transformation. With clear KPIs, our platform can help them ask the why question easily. And then our platform can also go perform, the how part of automation. That's what we solve. Those are the kinds of customers we really have been working with, John. >> So if I'm a customer, how do I know when I need to call MontyCloud? Is it because my cloud footprint is growing which is a natural sign of growth, or is it because I have more events happening, more things to manage? When do I know I have the need to call you guys? What's the signal? What's the sign? >> So we call it the day one mindset, and also the DAY2 mindset. Customers deciding to go to cloud on day one, should think about DAY2. Because without thinking about DAY2, it can become very expensive, right? When a customer's thinking about digital transformation, could be a lift and shift or it could be starting a new application pattern in the cloud, we can certainly help starting right that day because there are a couple of things they have to do, right? They have to standardize the cloud operations which means setting up the cloud accounts, setting up guardrails, enabling teams to go provision with self service. You want to start the right way. So we are happy to help on the day one journey itself and we can automate DAY2 along with it. So standardizing infrastructure operations, standardizing provisioning, security, visibility, compliance, cost. If any of this is an important milestone that customers have to achieve in their cloud journey, we can help. >> By the way, I would just point out that we were just talking on another session around lift and shift is not a no-brainer either if not thought through and remediated correctly that cost could go through the roof. I mean, we've seen evidence of lift and shift fails just because they didn't think it through. Just to your point. I mean, that's not a no brainer. Quickly explain why lift and shift is not as easy as it looks. >> Sure thing. So lift and shift is great to get started, but why sometimes it fails is that the connotations about wanting to keep your Opex down while giving up CapEx is at odds with each other, right? Cloud is great for reducing your Capex. But ongoing operations, of the DAY2 operations, can add a lot of burden to the operational expenses. What customers find out is after moving to the cloud, the cost overruns are happening because of resources that are not provisioned correctly, resources that should not be running. Wild Wild West kind of scenarios, where everybody has access to everything and they over provision. All of this together end up impacting customers' ability to go control the Opex. Then digital transformation projects are looked at from three different angles at least, right? Cost is definitely one, security is another, and then the ongoing operational tax with respect to monitoring, governance, remediation. All three when it simultaneously hits our customers, they look at lift and shift and saying, "Hey, this was cheaper on prem." But actually in the long run, this will be not just cheaper on the cloud, it can also be more efficient if they do it right. We can talk about some examples on how we help some customers with that helpful, John. >> Well, I want to get into the cloud operations, the whole dashboard in cloud operation administration. Is there anything that you could share because people are wanting more and more analytics. I mean, they're buying everything in sight. I mean, cyber security, you name it. There's more and more dashboards. No one wants another dashboard. So this is something that you guys have a strong opinion on how to think this through. Because again, at the end of the day, if you're instrumenting your network properly and your applications, your intelligence, things are changing, where's the data? Take us through your thinking around that. >> Sure thing. You are spot on. Nobody wants another dashboard that is just spewing data at them because data, without context is irrelevant in our mind, right? We want to be able to provide context, we want to be able to provide data within the context. And the dashboard to us means a customer that's looking at it, an IT leader looking at it should be able to ask the why question without working too hard at it, right? Let's bring up our dashboard. I would love to show and tell, although it's a dashboard, it is a tool that can enable IT leaders do things differently. >> John: Right, here it is. This is it right here. Okay, so this is the dashboard. Take me through it, what does it mean? >> Venkat: Yeah, let's (indistinct) right? The chart in the middle is the most important piece there. What we help our leaders, IT leaders do is, all the fullness of time of cloud adoption, we know the cloud's footprint is going to grow. The gray chart in the back, the stock chart represents the cloud footprint. As the cloud footprint continues to grow, we would like our leaders to demand that their security issues go down, their compliance issues go down and their costs to become more and more optimum. When leaders demand this, they can make things happen and our platform can help reduce all three and leaders can have this kind of dashboard to ask the why question. For example, they can compare one department with another department, ask that why question. They can compare an application that is similar in one department in another department and ask the why question, why is it more expensive? Why is it having more compliance issues? This is the kind of why questions our dashboard helps our customers perform and ask those questions, and they don't have to lift a finger, right? This entire dashboard comes to life within few minutes of them connecting their cloud accounts, where we provide visibility into operational issues, trend lines of data on how much consumption happens. And over a couple of months, they can see for themselves, make overall operation cost going down. Is my IT infrastructure now in cloud more resilient? And doesn't take more people to do it or am I able to turn on MontyClouds DAY2 bonds to go start reducing that burden or the period of time. This is what we mean by putting the power of autonomous CloudOps in our hands for customers. >> And this is what you mean by the IT powerhouse for the cloud. Is this on Amazon? So if I want to consume the product, what do I need to do to engage with you guys? What does it mean to me? Am I buying a service? Is it native? Is there agents involved? Take me through, what do I need to do? >> It's a great question. We are born in the cloud startup, which means we are super thankful for amazing technologies like Amazon infrastructure as core and the venting platform that's out there. So our platform is fully hosted, managed SaaS platform. A customer does not need to do anything but log onto montycloud.com, click a bunch of buttons, and connect their database account. They get started in under five minutes, self-service. And as they go through the platform, the guided experience where they can get to that dashboard I showed you in just a few clicks. They can get visibility, security posture assessment, compliance posture assessment, all in those few clicks. And when they decide to start using the platform more to automate and leverage the bots, they can always buy into additional services in the platform. So it's a easy to use get started in 10 minutes tops, if you will, that kind of platform >> Okay, great stuff. I want you to take me through the intelligent application flywheel that's going on here. So I can imagine that as the flywheel of success happens. Okay, got some intelligent apps, I see the dashboard, I'm getting some more visibility on the value creation, unlocking more value, new use case, all the things that happen in cloud, all good. And then I start growing, but I got builders trying to build more applications, more demand for more applications, more pressure on the infrastructure. The next question's, how do you guys simplify the cloud operation equation? Because I got to add more VPCs, I got to do more infrastructure, is it more EC Two? It can get complicated. How do you guys solve that problem? Because if the cloud footprint starts to grow because of more intelligent applications, how do you guys make it easier and simpler to scale up the intelligent infrastructure? >> Oh, that's a great question again, John. I'm going to go into a little bit of a detailed slide here. But before I do that, let's talk about two customers that we helped, right? This slide on the left, talks to those, both the customers. So what we have learned working with customers is, they have to build cloud accounts, manage cloud regions, user onboarding. Then they have to build networking infrastructure. Then they have to enable application infrastructure on top of the networking infrastructure. Application infrastructure could mean they want high-performance computing workloads or elastic services, such as queuing services, storage, or traditional VMS databases. That's a lot to build in the application infrastructure with infrastructure scope. On top of that, our customers have to deal with visibility, security, compliance costs. You get it, right? The path to intelligent applications is not easy because cloud is powerful, but it's broad, and the talent required is deep. We are able to say, how can we help our customers automate everything below the intelligent application layer. If we can do that, which we do, we can now propel our developers to go build intelligent applications without having the of also managing the underlying infrastructure. And we can help the IT operations team become cloud powerhouses because they get out of the way and enabled. Give you two examples here, right? One of our customers is a fortune 200 large ISP. They have about 10,000 servers in a particular department. And previously, when the servers were on premises, they had about a four member team managing compliance for it. When they lifted and shifted these servers into the cloud, the same model they wanted to... There are leaders that asked "Why should we continue with the same model?" They wanted MontyCloud. Now there is a DAY2 compliance board that's running, managing the 10,000 servers automatically watching on for compliance drifts, notifying them in a Slack channel, gets approval, remediates and fixes it. They were able to take those four folks and put them on the intelligent application side, I suppose to continuous infrastructure management site. Another example, a fortune 200 global networking company. It's an interesting situation, John. So on cyber Monday, they wanted to go big of obviously the cyber Monday was very important for them. The Thursday before cyber Monday, their on-premises data center and application went down and their teams wanted to move the application to cloud. And the partner that we work with, that brought this challenge to us saying hey, this fortune customer wants to go to cloud and we have this weekend. Well, we were able to go guide the partner and with our platform they were able to not only take their application from on-prem to cloud, they set up the cloud infrastructure, the networking, the application layer, the monitoring layer, the operations layer, all of that within a day. And on Monday that application delivered three X sales for this customer, without that partner or the customer being a cloud expert. That's what we mean by putting that kind of power in the hands of customers. >> Yeah, and I want to go back to that slide 'cause I think there's a second section I want to look at because what you just referred to is, I think this builds into the next comment on the right-hand side, this DAY2 kind of console vision here. The idea of getting in the weeds and getting into the troubleshooting of say, that cyber Monday example is exactly the non agility scenario, right? Because, if anyone's ever worked in tech knows when you have to get to root cause on something, it can take a while, right? So you need to have the system architecture built out. So here, classic cloud architecture on the left moves to a simple kind of console model. That's kind of what you guys are offering. Am I getting that right, Venkat? Is that kind of how this works? >> Yeah, that's kind of how it works, but the path to that maybe, a quick explanation though. We look at what's on the right--- >> Put that slide back up, let's get that slide back. Okay, there it is. >> Venkat: So what's on the right side here is, every layer on the left requires specialized talent and specialized tooling. That's all customers are currently experienced in the cloud. They either have to buy into a expensive monitoring tool or buy into an expensive security posture management tool. They have to hire, you know... It's hard to find cloud talent, right? And then they have to use infrastructure as code solutions. Sometimes that is, that can get more complex to maintain. What we have in MontyCloud is that, every layer there, they can provision by clicking away. For example, when they provision their cloud accounts setting up AWS best practices, budget guardrails, security, logging and monitoring, they can click away and do it. Setting up network infrastructure like VPC is setting up AWS transit gateway, VPNs, there's templates they can click and do it. The application infrastructure, which is a growing set of application infrastructure. Imagine this John, if a developer can come in and request the IT team they would like to set up an RDS database, right? The IT team can now with DAY2, can provide the developer options of, do you want it in dev stage prod? And do you want snapshots, backup, high availability? These are all check boxes and the developer can pick and choose and they can provision what they want without additional help from the IT team. And the IT team does not have to automate any one of those because it's pre automated in our platform. >> Yeah, this is the promise of infrastructure as code. You don't got to get in to the architecture and start throwing switches and all kinds of weird stuff can happen. Someone doesn't turn off, they don't enable auto-scale and they tested for this they forgot to revert back. I mean, there's a zillion things that could go wrong, human error, as well as automation. So once you set it up, then you provide a consumable developer friendly approach. That seems to be what's happening. Okay, cool. All right, well Venkat, this is fantastic. Final minutes we have left. I want to get your thoughts on the momentum and the vision. Talk about the momentum that you guys have now in the marketplace and what's the vision for the next five years. >> Great, it's a great question. From a momentum perspective John, we take an approach of, let's work with customers and understand that we can solve some problems for them. We've been working backups with customers. We have customers that are startups, that are born in the cloud, we have customers that are enterprise customers who are having a large footprint on-prem. Then we have everybody in between like university customers who are transitioning off. So what we did is from a momentum perspective, we worried more about, do we understand the talent gap and the tooling gap that exists across the board of all customers? Because every customer, once they go to cloud, they look to achieving the same level of efficiency and simplicity like modern cloud companies. A traditional company that moves to cloud wants to act and behave like the one in the cloud customer. For us it was very important to understand a variety of customers, a variety of use cases, and then automated away. So momentum is that we are able to go help a customer that is a Greenfield customer to go to cloud easily. And we're also able to go help brownfield customers, ensure they can reduce the total cost of cloud operations on an ongoing basis. So we've been seeing customers of all sizes, even helping customers of all sizes move fast. And there's a bunch of case studies out there in our website. We are a startup, so we've been able to help those customers and earn their trust by delivering results for them. So the momentum is that, we are able to go scale up now, and scale up fast for our customers without us being in the way, technically. Or customers can go to our platform help themselves and accelerate the platform. That's the momentum we have. From a future perspective, you asked, where things are headed, right? There are a couple of things. First things first, it's important to not just predict the future, we got to create it, right? About two years back when we founded MontyCloud, the question my team asked me, my CTO asked me is, what really matters in cloud ranking, right? So we said, all right, this is provisioning automation management. Yeah, they all matter. But what seemed to really matter is there are three things that matter. That's how we came to... One is events. The cloud itself is an eventing machine, right? More than ever, the cloud infrastructure emits events at every turn, every resource, every activity is expressed as an event. So we made an early bet on building an event driven platform from the ground up. We are the only platform that is even driven. Every other platform is seen to try and solve problems which is awesome to have, but they take an approach of an API based model or an inference into log based model. So the future, we believe, belongs to eventing model because it's lightweight on the customer's infrastructure, it goes easy on the cloud providers. More importantly, it gets the customer as close as possible to when the event happens, right? That's very important, to be able to be even event-driven. If you noticed Cloud Native Foundation came up and announced recently cloud events is the right way to deal with modern SaaS platforms. We've been in cloud events from day one for us, right? So the future is in eventing model. >> And that's where the data angle, I think, connects here for this event and why you guys are a hot startup is, observability, all these things. It's all about a event driven infrastructure. It's all events. It's monitoring, it's management, it's data. At the end of the day, the data is the instrumentation, is what it is. Developers are coding. Media's data. Everything's data. Everything has to do with data. You guys have a unique approach. Venkat Krishnamachari, thank you for coming on. Appreciate it, and thanks for sharing your story here at the AWS Showcase. First inaugural Cube On CloudStartups, part of the 10 hot startups categories. Thanks for sharing. >> Thanks for the opportunity. And we hope to help a lot more customers, simply for the cloud operations and innovate with some intelligent applications that's going to change the world. >> Check out Venkat and his company all on Twitter, on Facebook, they're on every channel, all the channels are open, of course. theCUBE we're bringing you all the hot startups, extracting the signal from the noise. I'm John furrier. Thanks for watching. (Upbeat music)

(upbeat electronic music) >> Narrator: Live from San Francisco, it's The Cube, covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. We are here live, The Cube in San Francisco, Moscone West for the Red Hat Summit 2018 exclusive coverage. I'm John Furrier, the cohost of The Cube. I'm here with my cohost, John Troyer, who is the co-founder of Tech Reckoning, an advisory and community development firm. Our next guest is Jonathan Donaldson, Technical Director, Office of the CTO, Google Cloud. Former Cube Alumni. Formerly was Intel, been on before, now at Google Cloud for almost two years. Welcome back, good to see you. >> Good to see you too, it's great to be back. >> So, had a great time last week with the Google Cloud folks at KubeCon in Denmark. Kubernetes, rocking the world. Really, when I hear the word de facto standard and abstraction layers, I start to get, my bells go off, let me look at that. Some interesting stuff. You guys have been part of that from the beginning, with the CNCF, Google, Intel, among others. Really created a movement, congratulations. >> Yeah, thank you. It really comes down to the fact that we've been running containers for almost a dozen years. Four billion a week, we launch and collapse. And we know that at some point, as Docker and containers really started to take over the new way of developing things, that everyone is going to run into that scalability wall that we had run into years and years and years ago. And so Craig and the team at Google, again, I wasn't at Google at this time, but they had a really, let's take what we know from internally here and let's take those patterns and let's put them out there for the world to use, and that became Kubernetes. And so I think that's really the massive growth there, is that people are like, "Wow, you've solved a problem, "but not from a science project. "It's actually from something "that's been running for a decade." >> Internally, that's called bore. That's tools that Google used, that their SRE cyber lab engineers used to massively provision manage. And they're all software engineers, so it's not like they're operators. They're all Google engineers. But I want to take a minute, if you can, to explain. 'Cause you're new to Google Cloud. You're in the industry, you've been around, you helped form the CNCF, which is the Cloud Native Foundation. You know cloud, you know tech. Google's changed a lot, and Google Cloud specifically has a narrative of, they're one big cloud and they have an application called Google stuff and enterprises are different. You've been there now for almost a year or more. >> Jonathan: Little over a year, yeah. >> What's Google Cloud like right now? Break the myths down around Google Cloud. What's the current status? I know personally, a lot of cloud DNA is coming in from the industry. They've been hiring, making some great progress. Take a minute to explain the Google Cloud. >> Yeah, so it's really interesting. So again, it comes back from where you started from. So Google itself started from a scale consumer SAS type of business. And so that, they understood really well. And we still understand, obviously, uptime and scalability really, really well. And I would say if you backtrack several years ago, as the enterprise really started to look at public clouds and Google Cloud itself started to spin up, that was probably not, they probably didn't understand exactly all of the things that an enterprise would need. Really, at that point in time, no one cloud understood any of the enterprise specifically. And so what they did is they started hiring in people like myself and others that are in the group that I'm in. They're former CIOs of large enterprise companies or former VPs of engineering, and really our job in the Office of the CTO for Google Cloud is to help with the product teams, to help them build the products that enterprises need to be able to use the public cloud. And then also work with some of those top enterprise customers to help them adopt those technologies. And so I think now that if you look at Google Cloud, they understand enterprise really, really well, certainly from the product and the technology perspective. And I think it's just going to get better. >> I interviewed Jennifer Lynn, I had a one-on-one with her. I didn't publish it, it was more of a briefing. She runs Product Management, all on security side. >> Jonathan: Yeah, she's fantastic. >> So she's checking the boxes. So the table stakes are set for Google. I know you got to do some basic things to catch up to get in the cloud. But also you have partnerships. Google Next is coming up, The Cube will be there. Red Hat's a partner. Talk about that relationship with Red Hat and partners. So you're very partner-centric with Google Cloud. >> Jonathan: We are. >> And that's important in the enterprise, but so what-- >> Well, there tends to be two main ares that we focus on, from what we consider the right way to do cloud. One of them is open source. So having, which again, aligns perfectly with Red Hat, is putting the technologies that we want customers to use and that we think customers should use in open source. Kubernetes is an example, there's Istio and others that we've put out that are examples of those. A lot of the open source projects that we all take for granted today were started from white papers that we had put out at one point in time, explaining how we did those things. Red Hat, from a partner perspective, I think that that follows along. We think that the way that customers are going to consume these technologies, certainly enterprise customers are, through those partners that they know and trust. And so having a good, flourishing ecosystem of partners that surround Google Cloud is absolutely key to what we do. >> And they love multicloud too. >> They love multicloud. >> Can't go wrong with it. >> And we do too. The idea is that we want customers to come to Google Cloud and stay there because they want to stay there, because they like us for who we are and for what we offer them, not because they're locked into a specific service or technology. And things like Kubernetes, things like containers, being open sourced allows them to take their tool chains all the way from their laptop to their own cloud inside their own data center to any cloud provider they want. And we think hopefully they'll naturally gravitate towards us over time. >> One of the things I like about the cloud is that there's a flywheel, if you will, of expertise. Like I look at Amazon, for instance. They're getting a lot of metadata of the kinds of workloads that are on their cloud, so they can learn from that and turn that into an advantage for them, or not, or for their customers, and how they could do that. That's their business decision. Google has a lot of flywheel action going on. A lot of Android devices connected in the Google system. You have a lot of services that you can bring to bear in the cloud. How are you guys looking at, say, from a security standpoint alone, that would be a very valuable service to have. I can tap into all the security goodness of Google around what spear phishing is out there, things of that nature. So are you guys thinking like that, in terms of services for customers? How does that play out? >> So where we, we're very consistent on what we consider is, privacy is number one for our customers, whether they're consumer customers or whether they're enterprise customers. Where we would use data, you had mentioned a lot of things, but where we would use some data across customer bases are typically for security things, so where we would see some sort of security impact or an attack or something like that that started to impact many customers. And we would then aggregate that information. It's not really customer information. It's just like you said, metadata, themes, or trends. >> John Furrier: You're not monetizing it. >> Yeah, we're not monetizing it, but we're actually using it to protect customers. But when a customer actually uses Google Cloud, that instance is their hermetically sealed environment. In fact, I think we just came out recently with even the transparency aspects of it, where it's almost like the two key type of access, for if our engineers have to help the customer with a troubleshooting ticket, that ticket actually has to be opened. That kind of unlocks one door. The customer has to say, "Yes," that unlocks the other door. And then they can go in there and help the customer do things to solve whatever the problem is. And each one of those is transparently and permanently logged. And then the customer can, at any point in time, go in and see those things. So we are taking customer privacy from an enterprise perspective-- >> And you guys are also a whole building from Google proper, like it's a completely different campus. So that's important to note. >> It is. And a lot of it just chains on from Google proper itself. If you understood just how crazy and fanatical they are about keeping things inside and secret and proprietary. Not proprietary, but not allowing that customer data out, even on the consumer side, it would give a whole-- >> Well, you got to amplify that, I understand. But what I also see, a good side of that, which is there's a lot of resources you're bringing to bear or learnings. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> The SRE concept, for instance, is to me, really powerful, because Google had to build that out themselves. This is now a paradigm, we're seeing a cloud scale here, with the Cloud Native market bringing in all-new capabilities at scale. Horizontally scalable, fully synchronous, microservices architecture. This future is a complete game-changer on functionality at the different scale points. So there's no longer the operator's room, provisioning storage here. >> And this is what we've been doing for years and years and years. That's how all of Google itself, that's how search and ads and Gmail and everything runs, in containers all orchestrated by Borg, which is our version of Kubernetes. And so we're really just bringing those leanings into the Google Cloud, or learnings into Google Cloud and to our customers. >> Jonathan, machine learning and AI have been the big topic this week on OpenShift. Obviously that's a big strength of Google Cloud as well. Can you drill down on that story, and talk about what Google Cloud is bringing on, and machine learning on OpenShift in general? Give us a little picture of what's running. >> Yeah, so I think they showed some of the service broker stuff. And I think, did they show some of the Kubeflow stuff, which is taking some machine learning and Kubernetes underneath OpenShift. I think those are very, very interesting for people that want to start getting into using AutoML, which is kind of roll-your-own machine learning, or even the voice or vision APIs to enhance their products. And I think that those are going to be keys. Easing the adoption of those, making them really, really easy to consume, is what's going to drive the significant ramp on using those types of technologies. >> One of the key touchpoints here has been the fact that this stuff is real-world and production-ready. The fact that the enterprise architecture now rolling out apps within days or weeks. One of those things that's now real is ML. And even in the opening keynote, they talked about using a little bit of it to optimize the scheduling and what sessions were in which rooms. As you talk to enterprises, it does seem like this stuff is being baked into real enterprise apps today. Can you talk a little bit about that? >> Sure, so I certainly can't give any specific examples, because what I think what you're saying is that a lot of enterprises or a lot of companies are looking at that like, "Oh, this is our new secret sauce." It always used to be like they had some interesting feature before, that a competitor would have to keep up with or catch up with. But I think they're looking at machine learning as a way to enhance that customer experience, so that it's a much more intimate experience. It feels much more tailored to whomever is using their product. And I think that you're seeing a lot of those types of things that people are starting to bake into their products. We've, again, this is one of these things where we've been using machine learning for almost 10 years inside Google. Things like for Gmail, even in the early days, like spam filtering, something just mundane like that. Or we even used it, turned it on in our data centers, 'cause it does a really good job of lowering the PUE, which is the power efficiency in data centers. And those are very mundane things. But we have a lot of experience with that. And we're exposing that through these products. And we're starting to see people, customers gravitate to grab onto those. Instead of having to hard code something that is a one to many kind of thing, I may get it right or I may have to tweak it over time, but I'm still kind of generalizing what the use cases are that my customers want to see, once they turn on machine learning inside their applications, it feels much more tailored to the customer's use cases. >> Machine learning as a service seems to be a big hot button that's coming out. How are you guys looking at the technical direction from the cloud within the enterprise? 'Cause you have three classes of enterprise. You have the early adopters, the power, front, cutting-edge. Then you have the fast followers, then you have everybody else. The everybody else and fast followers, they know about Kubernetes, some might not even, "What is Kubernetes?" So you have kind of-- >> Jonathan: "What containers?" >> A level of progress where people are. How are you guys looking at addressing those three areas, because you could blow them away with TensorFlow as a service. "Whoa, wowee, I'm just trying to get my storage LUNs "moving to a cloud operation system." There's different parts of this journey. Is there a technical direction that addresses these? What are you guys doing? >> So typically we'll work with those customers to help them chart the path through all those things, and making it easy for them to use and consume. Machine learning is still, unless you are a stats major or you're a math major, a lot of the algorithms and understanding linear algebra and things like that are still very complex topics. But then again, so is networking and BGP and things like OSPF back a few years ago. So technology always evolves, and the thing that you can do is you can just help pull people along the continuum there, by making it easy for them to use and to provide a lot of education. And so we work with customers on all ends of the spectrum. Even if it's just like, "How do I modernize my applications, "or how do I even just put them into the cloud?" We have teams that can help do that or can educate on that. If there are customers that are like, "I really want to go do something special "with maybe refactoring my applications. "I really want to get the Cloud Native experience." We help with that. And those customers that say, "I really want to find out this machine learning thing. "How can I actually make that an impactful portion of my company's portfolio?" We can certainly help with that. And there's no one, and typically you'll find in any large enterprise, because there'll be some people on each one of those camps. >> Yeah, and they'll also want to put their toe in the water here and there. The question I have for you guys is you got a lot of goodness going on. You're not trying to match Amazon speed for speed, feature for feature, you guys are picking your shots. That is core to Google, that's clear. Is there a use case or a set of building blocks that are highly adopted with you guys now, in that as Google gets out there and gets some penetration in the enterprise, what's the use, what are the key things you see with successes for you guys, out of the gate? Is there a basic building? Amazon's got EC2 and S3. What are you guys seeing as the core building blocks of Google Cloud, from a product standpoint, that's getting the most traction today? >> So I think we're seeing the same types of building blocks that the other cloud providers are, I think. Some of the differences is we look at security differently, because of, again, where we grew up. We do things like live migration of virtual machines, if you're using virtual machines, because we've had to do that internally. So I think there are some differences on just even some of the basic block and tackling type of things. But I do think that if you look at just moving to the cloud, in and of itself is not enough. That's a stepping stone. We truly believe that artificial intelligence and machine learning, Cloud Native style of applications, containers, things like service meshes, those things that reduce the operational burdens and improve the rate of new feature introduction, as well as the machine learning things, I think that that's what people tend to come to Google for. And we think that that's a lot of what people are going to stay with us for. >> I overheard a quote I want to get your reaction to. I wrote it down, it says, "I need to get away from VPNs and firewalls. "I need user and application layer security "with un-phishable access, otherwise I'm never safe." So this is kind of a user perspective or customer perspective. Also with cloud there's no perimeters, so you got phishing problems. Spear phishing's one big problem. Security, you mentioned that. And then another quote I had was, "Kubernetes is about running frameworks, "and it's about changing the way "applications are going to be built over time." That's where, I think, SRE and Istio is very interesting, and Kubeflow. This is a modern architecture for-- >> There's even KubeVirt out there, where you can run a VM inside a container, which is actually what we do internally too. So there's a lot of different ways to slice and dice. >> Yeah, how relevant is that, those concepts? Because are you hearing that as well on the customers? 'Cause that's pain point, but also the new modern software development's future way to do things. So there's pain point, I need some aspirin for that. And then I need some growth with the new applications being built and hiring talent. Is that consistent with how you guys see it? >> So which one should I tackle? So you're talking about. >> John Furrier: VPN, do the VPNs first. >> The VPNs first, okay. >> John Furrier: That's my favorite one. >> So one of the most, kind of to give you the backstory, so one of the most interesting things when I came to Google, having come from other large enterprise vendors before this, was there's no VPNs. We don't even have it on our laptop. They have this thing called BeyondCorp, which is essentially now productized as the Identity-Aware Proxy. Which is, it actually takes, we trust no one or nothing with anything. It's not the walled garden style of approach of firewall-type VPN security. What we do is, based upon the resource you're going to request access for, and are you on a trusted machine? So on one that corporate has given you? And do you have two-factor authentication that corporate, not only your, so what you have and what you know. And so they take all of those things into awareness. Is this the laptop that's registered to you? Do you have your two-factor authentication? Have you authenticated to it and it's a trusted platform? Boom, then I can gain access to the resources. But they will also look for things like if all of a sudden you were sitting here and I'm in San Francisco, but something from some country in Asia pops up with my credentials on it, they're going to slam the door shut, going, "There's no way that you can be in two places at one time." And so that's what the Identity-Aware Proxy or BeyondCorp does, kind of in a nutshell. And so we use that everywhere, internally, externally. And so that's one of the ways that we do security differently is without VPNs. And that's actually in front of a lot of the GCP technologies today, that you can actually leverage that. So I would say we take-- >> Just rethinking security. >> It's rethinking security, again, based upon a long history. And not only that, but what we use internally, from our corporate perspective. And now to get to the second question, yeah. >> Istio, Kubeflow, is more of the way software gets run. One quote from one of the ex-Googlers who left Google then went out to another company, she goes, she was blown away, "This is the way you people ship software?" Like she was a fish out of water. She was like, "Oh my god, where's Borg?" "We do Waterfall." So there's a new approach that opens doors between these, and people expect. That's this notion of Kubeflow and orchestration. So that's kind of a modern, it requires training and commitment. That's the upside. Fix the aspirin, so Identity Proxy, cool. Future of software development architecture. >> I think one of the strong things that you're going to see in software development is I think the days of people running it differently in development, and then sandbox and testing, QA, and then in prod, are over. They want to basically have that same experience, no matter where they are. They want to not have to do the crossing your fingers if it, remember, now it gets reddited or you got slash-dotted way back in the past and things would collapse. Those days of people being able to put up with those types of issues are over. And so I think that you're going to continue to see the development and the style of microservices, containers, orchestrated by something that can do auto scaling and healing, like Kubernetes. You're going to see them then start to use that base layer to add new capabilities on top, which is where we see Kubeflow, which is like, hey, how can I go put scalable machine learning on top of containers and on top of Kubernetes? And you even see, like I said, you see people saying, "Well, I don't really want to run "two different data planes and do the inception model. "If I can lay down a base layer "of Kubernetes and containers, then I can run "bare metal workloads against the bare metal. "If I need to launch a virtual machine, "I'll just launch that inside the container." And that's what KubeVirt's doing. So we're seeing a lot of this very interesting stuff pop. >> John Furrier: Yeah, creativity. >> Creativity. >> Great, talk about your role in the Office of the CTO. I know we got a couple of minutes left. I want to get out there, what is the role of the CTO? Bryan Stevens, formerly a Red Hat executive. >> Yeah, Bryan's our CTO. He used to run a big chunk of the engineering for Google Cloud, absolutely. >> And so what is the office's charter? You mentioned some CIOs, former CIOs are in there. Is it the think tank? Is it the command and control ivory tower? What's the role of the office? >> So I think a couple of years ago, Diane Greene and Bryan Stevens and other executives decided if we want to really understand what the enterprise needs from us, from a cloud perspective, we really need to have some people that have walked in those shoes, and they can't just be Diane or can't just be Bryan, who also had a big breadth of experience there. But two people can't do that for every customer for every product. And so they instituted the Office of the CTO. They tapped Will Grannis, again, had been in Boeing before, been in the military, and so tapped him to build this thing. And they went and they looked for people that had experience. Former VPs of Engineering, former CIOs. We have people from GE Oil and Gas, we have people from Boeing, we have people from Pixar. You name it, across each of the different verticals. Healthcare, we have those in the Office of the CTO. And about, probably, I think 25 to 30 of us now. I can't remember the exact numbers. And really, what our day to day life is like is working significantly with the product managers and the engineering teams to help facilitate more and more enterprise-focused engineering into the products. And then working with enterprise customers, kind of the big enterprise customers that we want to see successful, and helping drive their success as they consume Google Cloud. So being the conduit, directly into engineering. >> So in market with customers, big, known customers, getting requirements, helping facilitate product management function as well. >> Yeah, and from an engineering perspective. So we actually sit in the engineering organization. >> John Furrier: Making sure you're making the good bets. >> Jonathan: Yes, exactly. >> Great, well thanks for coming on The Cube. Thanks for sharing the insight. >> Jonathan: Thanks for having me again. >> Great to have you on, great insight, again. Google, always great technology, great enterprise mojo going on right now. Of course, The Cube will be at Google Next this July, so we'll be having live coverage from Google Next here in San Francisco at that time. Thanks for coming on, Jonathan. Really appreciate it, looking forward to more coverage. Stay with us for more of day three, as we start to wrap up our live coverage of Red Hat Summit 2018. We'll be back after this short break. (upbeat electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen Denmark, it's theCUBE covering Kubecon and CloudnativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, live here at Copenhagen, Denmark, Cube's coverage of Kubecon 2018 in Europe, this is all about the Kubernetes the future of cloud native, CloudNativeCon part of the CNCF Cloud Native Foundation, I'm John Furrier and my co-host Lauren Cooney, founder of Spark Labs industry expert of open source. So, we have two end user customers of Kubernetes and Cloud Native, Zach Arnold, software engineer Ygenre energy fund, and Austin Adams software development manager, same company. You guys are doing really interesting business model around energy and equity in buildings and homes, but you're writing code, so you have to make all this stuff work, so I'm sure you're cloud native, why have a data center when you can have the cloud >> Austin : We were born in the cloud. >> You were born in the cloud. So take us through, explain the business real quick, and then what's your back end, technical scaling situation look like in terms of infrastructure, software and what's the make up of the systems. >> Zach: You know the business best. >> Yeah, so Ygrene operates under something called PACE, property assess clean energy. We operate in a couple of different states. We work with local governments to create a PACE program that is accepted in different counties or jurisdictions within the state, and then we allow homeowners and contracting companies to provide financing for home improvements that are specifically within the domain of renewable energy or energy efficiency. >> So, you basically finance a solar panel that I put on my house or building if there's benefits there, and then you guys get the financing and you tie in with the government so the property taxes, the leverage the security is the building right, or the asset. >> Yeah, and the way that we're chartered is basically we can put a tax on the property which gives us some guarantees on repayment and things like that, and it's a great model so far. >> It's a new financial engineering around energy efficiancy so you've got to build systems, so you're working with government, so now we all know how government systems work, so you've got to be agile and nimble. Take us through how the back end works, what's it look like, what's the system look like, you're hosted in the cloud, is it Amazon, Google? >> So everything that we have is in a cloud provider that starts with an A, and ends with an S, it's AWS I don't know if I can say that, I think I can say that, AWS all the way-- >> Yes, it's good. >> And we have tons of services, we have Kubernetes running most of our main services. Within our migration we actually started with our main service. A lot of people start with, you know, their smallest microservice, we just went whole-hog and just went in for it, so they system is mainly a lone-management system. Underwriting data aggregation and underwriting processing, so every application that comes in we have to underwrite it and make sure every little thing checks out, and our underwriting system has won awards for how accurate it is and how high quality it is as well. >> So, I'm doing a mental white board in my mind, just kind of graphing this so just help me out here and take us through this. So, you guys are a cutting edge company, new progressive business model, real innovative, great stuff. Cloud native, so you're born in the cloud no data center, cool, check, it's what everyone does, and now you're like okay, now I've got to deal with these legacy systems. So, you're putting containers around things, so you have to interface, you build your own system so that's cool, but you're dealing with other systems and then how are you handling that, you are just containerizing it, so take us through some of those linkages. >> Yeah, so where we're creating, a lot of times when we have to integrate with another system, we'll create a small service that is code that we own, and we'll reach out to those integrations, those vendors and we'll do aggregation within our system and provide an interface back to our systems. You know, like everyone, we're breaking up the monolith or whatever, maybe in 10 years we'll go back to a monolith, who knows but you know we're slicing out things, making microservices, it looks like a mess on the back end, just tons of microservices going everywhere and that's why we're using all these Cloud Native tools to be able to manage that. So, in order to move quickly, we're wanting to containerize everything, everything runs in a container at this point. >> Lauren: Great. >> A lot of our services follow this kind of we're kind of calling the container adaptor pattern, it follows the software adaptor pattern where, just like Austin was saying, let's say for example we're interfacing with a credit vendor, we create a service where we talk to our own service that has a well defined interface that we know will always get a credit report back with the following fields, but then where that information actually comes from, whether it's one of the big three credit vendors or someone else who has a well defined API, that's largely not the concern of the main loan management system, it's the concern of the microservice that's responsible for reaching out to that other entity there. So, that's how we've kind of gotten to beat around the legacy interfacing of all these other different financial services and tools that help to aggregate data.. >> It's super clever you can optimize on a service basis but now you have to orchestrate and kind of conduct everything through-- >> And keep everything secure. >> That's really interesting, I mean I think what I'm looking at here is a huge ecosystem of partners and companies and end users coming together and one of the questions, beyond why you are here, what are you looking at here, what is interesting to you, what do you want to learn about that you might bring into your, you know, architecture essentially? >> Austin and I were talking about this, we kind of tend to look at the CNCF list of projects as a dinner menu. (laughs) >> We're refreshing that page frequently, because we're adding projects at an alarming rate, but one project we're using FluentD, Notary, Kubernetes, of course, Prometheus, things like that, we want to start using those things more extensively. One's that we're really excited about are Spire and Spiffy, the identity, kind of a new take, not necessarily new but new for cloud native take on identity of services and authentication, as well as the open policy agent to provide a single DSL to do all of your policy and authorization-- >> Lauren: That's a lot of work, load and management and identity correct? >> Yeah, yes. >> Authorization and authentication are two of the most important things that happen in our system and we have so many different ways that it happens right now, it can tend to look a little clogy, just from the sense of the fact that we need a little more coordination or standardization around it, I mean we have well written policies that are documented but the way that those actually get enforced are, it's individualized based on the service, you know, if it's a cloud based policy, then it's AWS IAM, if it's Kubernetes based policy it's RBAC using Kubernetes RBAC, so it kind of looks like if we can abstact a lot of that functionality out of the services, the containers, the orchestration tool or the cloud, to making those decisions, that would really, really simplify things for us. >> So, you guys are end users, so are you part of like an end user group that gives feedback directly into the community or how does that work, and do you contribute to that? >> Yes, so we're on the fringes of the contributor community as well, and we're definitely on GitHub on all these projects posting issues and in some cases providing our own PR's or whatever. None of us are within the Kubernetes orb but that's definitely something we all are achieving or aspiring to be is jumping into some of these projects, especially some of the smaller projects that we're using on a daily basis on our build servers like, Portheurs or Notary, some of those things we're actively contributing to those. >> So, you've traded on mastery of product but being active on the project is the key, the balance there. >> Yeah, I mean typically what you find in the fiance industry is when they go for a solution, they lead with their wallet as for what we can purchase, or what we can sponsor, but Ygrene has been, our managers and management have been incredibly empowering this way, they say well what can we give, we lead with our hands. >> Yeah, and this is interesting, if you have a good business model innovation, which you guys have, you can be a completely clean sheet of paper to build it. >> Right >> So, that's the best thing about the cloud. You can really move fast and go from, you know, point A to point B, move the needle. >> Yeah, with it at the same time there's kind of a clean slate, there's even a clean slate in terms of best practices within our industry. Now if we were in mortgage, there's a lot of rules, there's a lot of clear guidelines on how to do security and auditing and things that you need, where in our industry that's all emerging, so we have a chance to also set the pace, set the tone for what security might look like, or what cloud usage might look like within the PACE industry. But at the same time, we're getting increasing government regulations, so we're having to make these decisions around, what are the tools that are going help us achieve maximum customer protection and audit-ability while maintaining our business model without totally-- >> And you're going to need flexibility because you don't know what's going to come next you've got to be ready for anything, and that is what leads to my next question, two points, how do you guys prepare for what's next, what's the main ethos around, technical architecture around being prepared for that, ready state that's coming to you, and then two, what have you learned over the, what's the scar tissue look like, what's the moments of joy and despair going on because you're reiterating, your learning, you're always constantly getting knocked down, standing back up. so this is what innovation is, it can be fun and also grueling at the same time. >> Yeah, so how we deal with what's new beyond our like software process, we have a well-defined process that everything gets churned into. Government is really good about giving us notice about when stuff's going into effect, so we always have target dates that we're going toward. But, in terms of what's next in terms of our software, we have this interesting culture within our organization, everyone wants to improve everything, I think it's called a Kaizen culture, just people are looking at stuff they want to improve it, and so our process allows for anyone to throw something on the backlog. It will get prioritized and put around, but we're allowing all of our engineers to say, hey we want to do this, and you know, putting it into an open forum where, you know, we might not do it but we have the discussion, and we have all the channels to have those discussions and, like most technology companies or technology focused companies, we spend a lot of time talking about technologies, and making those decisions. >> You guys really have the cultural ethos but the people to bate and then commit. >> And that's one of my, you know, recommendations for any company trying to move to cloud native or Kubernetes is, always, you have to have your evangelists, on your team, because you can't expect people who have been doing it one way forever to instantly be onboard. You need some sort of technical evangelist whether that's outside company, it works best, I think, if it's someone you've hired, or someone in your organization who's preaching the gospel of Kubernetes or cloud native. >> Spark Labs, Lauren's company's doing a lot of that work, but that really nails it, I mean, you got to just, it's not a technical issue, per se-- >> Exactly. >> We're hearing that all through the show here. What's on your wish list, what is the holiday's want to bring for you? If you could throw your wish list out there, and you can, a magic wand, crystal ball >> EKS, if Amazon would respond to our request. >> Okay, we just had AG on yesterday, he said it's coming >> It's coming. >> He said, months, >> Did he say months, I thought it was a few months, So maybe >> We'll check the transcripts. >> Alright >> Yeah, it wasn't tomorrow. >> That's alright. >> And that's one of our, that's our scar tissue right? We're doing this ourself, you know, there's this huge control board and we got people, you know, doing the knobs and things and we're relatively small, you know, we're a small engineering organization so we're doing a lot of this ourselves where we can abstract a lot of that work out to a cloud provider that we are already on. >> Well it's going to be good reps for you guys as this thing gets abstracted away, you're going to have a great core competencies in Kubernetes, I think that is a notable thing there. >> Austin: For sure. >> One of the things on my wish list, I was speaking to Jace and Josh Burkus and a lot of the core contributors in Kubernetes at the Contributors Summit, I kind of realized that I would love to see a coordinated cross cutting after, either on part of the CNCF or on part of The Kubernetes Project proper, to have a proactive security, I wouldn't call it a working group, I guess a SIG, a Special Interest Group. It would be, I know that we can deal with zero day issues really, really quickly. For example, the Azure host path mapping issue that was a few months ago, but right now it's kind of on the responsibility of each SIG to implement whatever security looks like to them individually, which is great, it means there are people thinking about security, that makes me sleep better at night. But, seeing some coordination around that and kind of driving towards, okay we have this tool that seems to be changing the game, how are we going to change the game with security? Like is there a way to look at that and even, 'cause authentication and authorization have been around since more than one user used a terminal in the 1960's and 70's. But, even with this new step of admission controllers, where we have more fine grain control around how stuff gets into the cluster. I think it would be great to look at what a coordinated cloud native security effort would look like. >> I think that's great, I mean we've been talking to a lot of vendors here and a lot of folks that have projects, and we bring security every single time and they kind of have an answer, but they really don't. >> They body swerve you, we've got this we've got that. >> Or you're the developer and you have to build it in yourself, so I totally agree with that recommendation I think it's fabulous. >> Yeah, Kubernetes is making so many things simpler at certain levels. Now, if we can focus those efforts at making security simple for people, because they're security experts, they can put their two cents in >> Lauren: Let's build it in and not block it on. >> Build it in and not expect every developer to know. >> Zach: Don't bolt it on, build it in. >> Build it from the beginning, there are all kinds of new ways. The fact there is no perimeter with the cloud brings up, really kind of throws everyone for a loop because you have to go to the chipset down, I mean what Google got, I think is a very interesting approach, they're trying to push forward this multilayer approach from chip to kernel to OS to app, interesting. They've got, managing through all their security, they've got android, I mean spear phishing is a huge problem right now, we're seeing and a lot of enterprises we talk to are like, well, it's like the firewalls and VPN's like that's old school, they need to modernize that so this is going to get them thinking about that. So great, hey guys, thank you for coming on and sharing your feedback-- >> Thank you. >> And your data and your place and how you are architected on AWS and your work with Kubernetes. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Cube coverage here in Copenhagen. It's theCUBE's coverage at Kubecon 2018. We'll be back with more after this short break.

>> Narrator: Live, from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCube. Covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE exclusive coverage of CNCF. The Cloud Native Foundation, Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation of KubeCon 2018 here in Copenhagen, Denmark. I'm John Furrier co-host of theCUBE here with analyst this week Lauren Cooney, who is the founder of Spark Labs, brand new start up that she founded to help companies bring innovation to Cloud Native, bring in all of her expertise to companies. Also, here on theCUBE, Lauren, great to have you this week. >> Thanks, John. >> Here in Europe, you've done so much work in the area of open source over the years. You've done, you were radical renegade, progressive, pushing PHP, bringing that to Microsoft. Doing a lot of great things, and now we're in a new modern era, and you're bringing that expertise, but you're also on the front lines of the new wave. >> Lauren: Definitely. >> Cloud Native, so what's your take? What's your analysis? I mean, there's so much going on. You can't just retrofit old school open source, but it's got to build on the next generation. What's your thoughts? >> It has to build on the next generation, but you also have to look back at what has happened in the past. I think what is incredibly important to see is the mistakes that have been made in the past, so that people don't repeat them. One of the things that I'm seeing here and hearing a lot about is multiple distributions of Kubernetes out there, and when I hear multiple distributions I get worried that they're going the open sack route and there is going to be too many distributions out there. I would rather see one or two standard become kind of more standard and people building on top of that. I think it's the right way to go versus the splintering of the community. If the community is going to stay together you're going to have to narrow that down. >> What's the rationale for the distribution? Because, we've seen this before. Certainly at Hadoop, we saw people come out with distros and then abandon them, and then people coalesce around. >> Oh, they'll just die on the vine. I mean, fundamentally they just will die on the vine. It won't be, if it's not de facto already you're probably not going to get it de facto. >> John: What should companies do? Should they have a distro down. >> They should map to one of the key distros right now. They should, basically, use what is out there already. The one that they feel is right, and for their users, and for their company long term. >> I really enjoyed a couple of interviews we had yesterday. I want to just kind of revisit a couple of them. Tyler and Dirk, we had Tyler on from the new programming language ballerina that was launched. He's part of WSO2. Dirk is from Vien, where former early Linux guy, Linux foundation guy, worked with Linux tarballs in the early days. These guys know up the source. So you look at some of those leaders, and they say, "Hey, this is about the people" What are the things that we can draw from the past that are still relevant today? As the new formula of Kubernetes horizontally scalable cloud, Cloud Native thousands and, potentially, millions of micro-services coming online, new kinds of dynamic policy based infrastructure software, everything's coming. >> Service mesh, can't forget service mesh. >> Service meshes are going to be huge. What do we have to keep and preserve, and what is being built out that's new? >> Well, I think that you need to preserve the feeling of the community and what's going on there. I mean, these communities, actually it's communities not community, and these folks are coming along for the wave right? And I think it's important to make sure that people are aware of that, and there's lots of different personalities and lots of different goodness that can be brought to the table with that and the recognition of that. I also think that, for the most part, I do believe that this is one of the strongest communities out there, and it will continue to be for a number of years. >> I want to get your thoughts on something Ed Warnicke said from Cisco because he was very complimentary of the CNCF as are other people, and we have been complimentary as well about keeping everything tight to the core and allowing people to innovate. So you have, and we have commented on theCUBE and other KubeCons about this, and they've been doing it, which is let the innovation foster on the technical side as well as let people flex their business model opportunities. >> Lauren: Definitely. >> Not so much just for the sake of commercialization because if you have too much commercialization you might stunt the community of growth organically so there's a balance, and I think CNCF has done a good job there, but they've kept the core of Kubernetes really tight which has allowed the de facto standard approach to be Kubernetes. That has created great opportunity, and people are super excited by that. What's your analysis of what happens next? What needs to happen? What's the momentum phase two of this? >> I think part of it is, how do you monetize, right? It's looking at, and this is part of what Spark Labs actually does, is we actually work with companies, some that are in the CNCF, and we work on them in different ways to monetize. Is it a services wrapper that's going to work? Is it additional features or functionality? The innovation comes with the technology, but with that technology you have to have the business model kind of in mind when you're building this out so you can figure out how to make money. As these smaller companies especially are looking to do and some of the bigger companies as well. >> I really think it's important for the CNCF and the Linux foundation and I know they're on this so its not critical analysis so much as it is more of an observation. You have a long tail of start ups and kind of a fat tail if you will, that are out there, and you have the big whales out there Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and others at the top. There was a comment in Austin, a snarky comment. I won't say by who, but I was looking at the logo board of the sponsors, and the guy said, "All those start-ups, they might be dead in 18 months" and it made me pause and say okay, that's an observation because they were brand new companies. >> Lauren: Mm hmm. >> That can't happen. We need to have a model of preservation for start-ups to experiment, to grow. This is something you're doing at Spark Labs so what's your view of this? And, reaction to the fact that this has to happen. What can we do as an industry and community to make sure the start ups-- >> I think the Linux foundation is doing one of the best things that can be done out there. Other open source foundations do too. Is they create the infrastructure so that folks have the support for marketing, or legal, or something along those lines, but so companies are allowed to innovate and then the Linux Foundation basically bets on the innovation and they bet on multiple innovations with multiple companies so they allow these companies to thrive while giving them the support inside of that. >> John: Yeah. >> And I think that's really helping a lot of these companies along. >> Well, Dave Collins always says is the membership organization, so no members no business model so I mean they're incented to make sure that, or hope, that these guys can survive, and certainly there's going to be some misfires and people will natural evolution. So what are you most excited about? I got to ask ya, I mean you're out on your own now. Congratulations, you started up. >> Thank you. >> Super exciting for you and I'm happy that you're going to go out on your own. What are some of the things you're excited about? What are you digging your teeth into, in terms of projects? Share what you're doing. >> I'm super excited about these companies that are coming out with true multi-cloud. So, allowing applications to run across multiple environments, public, private, et cetera. And we've been saying we can do it for a decade or something like that, but fundamentally that wasn't the case. You did have to re-write code. You did have to do a lot of underlying things to make that occur. One of the things that I'm super excited about is being able to take those companies and figure out how to actually get their product to market faster. Some of these guys are still in stealth. They need to move really fast if they want to catch up. I also love working with them on figuring out how to build out their teams, figuring out how to monetize. What are the next steps? What are the business plans, really, behind this? What is the one, three, five year model that they're going to use? I also love helping them get the money, of course. I think that's the fun part too. >> Yeah, it's always fun. Start-ups are great. What I'm excited about, I got to tell ya, I got to share with you just some personal feelings. I love this market right now because I've seen many waves of innovation and I think this wave of cloud native, whatever you want to call it this massive wave or sets of waves coming in and you got blockchain and other things going on behind it these centralized applications which I think is part of this set coming in, is that it's bigger than all the other waves combined and because there's so much value creation on the horizon and I think historically, this moment in time, historically is going to be a point we're going to look back and say the Kubernetes de facto standard galvanized a set of industry, a new card of players who are going to establish a new way methodology of doing things, and we're documenting it. Secondly, the role of community, as you pointed out, is so important here, and it's strong, but now we're living in a new age of digital. We're seeing formations of new kinds of community engagement digitally, not just the events, so I'm excited with theCUBE and what we're doing here, and what the Linux Foundation is doing because there's now going to be, potentially, exponential growth and acceleration around the combination of community. >> Yup. >> The community growth with this new modern commercialization on digital. >> It's definitely increasingly important, and you have to look at it from the technologies making it happen. The technology is looking at, edge computing is going to make digital happen really when you look at all the end points and things along those lines. And, I think that it's going to be great for everyone involved in that. >> Yeah, and we can learn a lot from looking at the Facebook example of how fake news swayed the election. How people were weaponizing content for bad things. There's also an opposite effect, we believe that you can do the for good. >> Lauren: Totally agree. >> I think digital will have a big role in the next generation community formations, community growth, short cuts to the truth, really that's what it's all about. It's about the people, so certainly we're going to be documenting it. Thanks for your commentary. >> Lauren: Definitely. >> Appreciate it, great to work with you this week. Day two of exclusive coverage, here at the Linux Foundation's Cloud Native Compute Foundation's, CNCF's KubeCon 2018. This is where Kubernetes, service mesh, Istio a lot of great projects, from a lot of smart people. We're here on the ground covering it live. Day two, we'll be back with more coverage. Stay with us for day two coverage, after this short break. (electronic music)

(uplifting music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE Conversations here at the Palo Alto Studios for theCUBE. I'm John Furrier the co-host of theCUBE, co-founder of SiliconANGLE. We're here for Thought Leader Thursday, and my guest here to talk about the cloud, earnings in the industry, and also all the mega trends happening is Tarun Thakur, who is the co-founder and CEO of Datos.IO, hot start up out of Los Gatos, California. Welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you, John, thank you, good to be back. >> We love having entrepreneurs come in because you guys are on the cutting edge, you're sweating bullets, you're stressing out, you're building the company. You guys are still in a growth mode, which is great, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> But you're also playing in the cloud game. You're in the ecosystem. We're seeing massive visibility now into the numbers. You see the cloud earnings just came out. Amazon continues to crush it. Microsoft, they're bundling 365 and they're juicing the numbers up but we all know what's going on there, but still, they're looking good. >> Correct. >> And then Google's a dark horse with really that developer platform looking good. So the big three are popping. But, you know, Facebook just announced a $10 billion quarter. They're a cloud too, not to be reckoned with, but kind of not in the pure infrastructures of service. So clearly the market has shown that there is some stability. We're in the second, third inning maybe of this cloud game. What's your take on the marketplace? >> No, I think this is an excellent topic. Thank you, John, for again having us back. Always great to be here. So, you know, the way I think about what's happening really in the cloud is really from three dimensions. Number one, you know, you rightly said $20 billion is what Amazon is on a run rate business of. We personally believe it's still the first innings. It's not the second or the third. You know, they've seen a massive adoption as its called the product market for developilabilty, where the developers, where the application developers, where the SMBs of the world, but the enterprises are just starting to scratch the surface of the cloud. We believe the cloud is in the first innings. The real growth. >> Enterprise cloud. >> Enterprise cloud is just beginning. Just beginning, right. I was, you know, I'll give you quickly an example. I was out in Denver visiting a customer, which is the world's largest, one of the world's largest, shipping companies. They are moving as fast as possible to the cloud, but this is their first foray. But their first foray is not five terabytes or 50 terabytes. Their first foray is 50 petabytes of data. >> So they're moving big time. >> Oh, they're moving big time. >> This is not a toe in the water. >> No, they took two years to evaluate it, and then they go big. >> Right, so talk about the trends here because let's tease through the numbers. I looked at all the earnings, and again, Microsoft is doing well, but remember, they're bundling Office 365, which kind of puts Google unnoticed because Google's got a huge presence that they could roll in. So there's a lot of number games going on that the analysts are kind of pointing out, and we're pointing out, but Amazon has just been crushing it on overall performance. >> Right. >> I mean look at the compute that's going on, the scale, they've got thousands of enterprise customers, and still there's a lot more growth there because the on-prem, true private cloud, is still growing. >> That's correct. >> So what is the state of the enterprise now, and who is using the public cloud more, and who's using it less, and why are they doing that? Is it a makeup, is it a DNA culture? Is it just evolution? >> No, it's just evolution, John. I think the enterprises are finally latching on to this, I think they are, but they're latching on it in a big way. Right, and so that's the second point that I sort of wanted to highlight that while you call Google the Trojan horse, and Amazon being the lead, and then Microsoft somewhere in the middle, let's not forget about Oracle cloud. Larry Ellison is a formidable competitive spirit. He's not going to give up. He has not given up so far. They are going to build an Oracle cloud. There will be a-- >> Well they have an Oracle cloud. >> They have an Oracle cloud. But, you know, having versus really truly-- >> It's so funny, Larry Ellison called Salesforce a fake cloud, but a lot of people are calling Oracle a fake cloud. >> A fake cloud. >> But Oracle on Oracle, we've entered Dave Donatelli, Larry is the only one that hasn't come on theCUBE. Oracle cloud works great with Oracle. >> Correct. >> They're trying to put the message out there that Oracle is working well with cloud native. They're in the Cloud Native Foundation now. >> Sure, sure. >> CNCF, so you stayed in Oracle amidst Avery and folks over there doing a great job, so, but they're not getting the word out. Oracle's not getting the job done because no one sees Oracle as a cool cloud native company. >> No, and they're not. And I think that's a very valid point. But what I'm saying is that there will be room There is oxygen in this market to get the fourth and the fifth cloud provider. There will be specialized clouds. And there will be places for that. Because Amazon is not an answer for all. It is definitely an answer for majority of your workloads, but the HPC, the high performance computing workloads, the GPU workloads, the Oracle. You know, you look at the number one database in the cloud that Amazon claims openly is MySQL. It's not Oracle. An Amazon database business, if they're making 20 billion in total AWS, I will tell you about 40% or 50% of their business is database. And that's not Oracle. So think of five to $10 billion of revenue and money that Amazon is making is not Oracle. >> What's that mean? Does that mean Oracle's losing money or. That's leakage on Oracle's model? Is that Oracle still has an opportunity? Cause they still control a lot of databases. >> Thank you and, thus, thank you, thank you for asking that. It's not that Oracle is losing money, it's the next generation applications, it's the cloud enabled applications. >> So it's growth, it's pure growth. >> It's the new oxygen, it's the new wealth creation. >> So it's like the classic example when the internet started. Web traffic increased because more people were using the internet. >> Correct. >> So what you're saying is that cloud has created a more database market. Amazon's getting a big chuck of it there, but Oracle still has the database market. >> For example if you look-- >> And SAP too. >> And look at the third reason of these clouds, if you look at AIML, right, these applications, the Alexa, the Siri-like applications, and the applications that will be built on top of this, will be built in the cloud. You're not going to start building Alexa AI application on prem infrastructure. That is not happening. And that's the third part of this whole cloud. We say it's $20 billion and we have barely scratched the surface on AI, ML, and blockchain. And all those applications that will be built, will be built on cloud elastic infrastructure. >> Alright, so what's your take? I mean, right now Amazon's winning the cloud game, Oracle, I wouldn't call them number four, but they're trying to juice the numbers up as well, but they clearly have an installed base, and they're not going anywhere. >> Tarun: Captive audience. >> SAP is going multi-cloud, so you're seeing SAP starting to put their, looking at saying, hey, we want our customers to run Oracle SAP on any cloud, so they're clearly thinking multi-cloud. Who else is out there? Alibaba cloud is now coming to the US in San Mateo, so they're number seven cloud but four worldwide, right? >> Tarun: Correct. >> So, pure worldwide numbers, Alibaba's four. >> Yes, so I'll start with Ali cloud. You know, you talk about Alibaba, their cloud is called Ali cloud, and fortunately, as you're building a company, as you talked about earlier on in our offline conversation, you get to meet all the way from governed DoD's and DIA's of the world too. We worked with Ali cloud executive team just a few weeks ago and they were out here in the bay area. Didi is the de facto car hailing company, it's not Uber, in China. We believe Ali cloud will be that in China. There will be a fifth cloud, there will be a sixth cloud. To my point, there will be specialized clouds. Amazon's not going to win this entire pie. And there will be clouds outside of US markets. >> Well I had a chance to tell Karen Lu and Dr. Min Wen Li as well as Dr. Wong at Alibaba in China a few weeks ago, and if you look at what they're doing in China, it's not just cloud. They've got eCommerce, they've got the city brain project. They're looking at holistically around data. Data's fundamental to their vision. I think that's consistent with what we're seeing in the US. A little bit more broader scope because IT here is a little bit more, has more legacy. China's got much more focus and got some government controls in there to get some latitude to do the right things. But the consumers are moving faster in China. If you look at the mobile growth. >> Absolutely. >> John: Huge indicator. >> Look at the Didi's growth. Didi's growth is more faster than Uber's growth. Right, and they've built a massive, massive company out there. >> IoT is pretty hot in China, you're starting to see that. I mean, this is a re-imagining of cloud, so you guys are in the middle of it with back on the road recovery. So as a CEO you're in the body swerving, car's that are flying by you, you're trying not to get run over. You've got a good market opportunity with the cloud because GDPR's coming right around the corner. >> Yes, yes, absolutely. >> So what's your strategy? Are you, I mean, I'm paraphrasing, not dodging cars, but, I mean, as a start up you've got to worry about your success might kill you, but how do you manage the business? I mean, how are you looking at this? Because you've got a great opportunity, and it's a growth market. >> Thank you, thank you. No we're lucky and fortunate that some of the decisions we made back four years ago people used to laugh, why are you going in this market of cloud data applications and isn't eight out of $10 dollars being spent on Oracle. Why would you go off to that. And, we're like, guys that's today. Where the puck is going. The puck is going towards the cloud and cloud applications. And to answer your question, we've found beautiful beautiful excellent product market fit. A little bit about the company. >> John: What's the use case? >> We're just classically going backup in recovery use cases. Built for cloud native applications. So, for example, I talked about the number one database in the cloud is MySQL. The number two database on prem is SQL Server. Take a guess on number two database in the cloud. It's MongoDB, they just went IPO two weeks ago. Number two database on Amazon is MongoDB. Who thought that five years ago? >> Well Lamp Stack its just open stores driving a lot of this action. >> So, I'll give you an example, one of our biggest, biggest customers which we're going to be announcing very soon, but take the liberty to share here, OpenTable. OpenTable, we are protecting OpenTable. 2.5 billion documents. That's yours and my reservation. That's your and my reservation that we make for a beautiful restaurant. >> Yeah, and if I change that reservation I've got to have that backed up, but want to bring it back. You guys are doing that. So what's the scale of the OpenTable? Ballpark it. >> So all their entire reservation applications. >> The whole thing. >> I probably will not talk about the datasets. You know, but their entire geo-distributed applications. You could be sitting in New York or you could be in London. >> And in which cloud are they using? >> They are all Google cloud, they're on prem. So they're truly private cloud and public cloud. So I call that a multi cloud data management space. They've a ton of stuff still on prem. They're not going to diverge away from that very quickly. >> What's the Google situation? Sam Ramji is over there doing a great job. Google Next is coming up soon, next year. Great traction, but still people aren't considering Google as the white glove service because, well, Amazon's not really known for that either, but at least they have a lot more, thousands more customers than Google does. >> Yeah so I think that the problem is twofold, in my humble opinion. Or the observation is twofold. One, I think Google needs to amp up their game around cloud and cloud messaging. You open Amazon AWS.cloud website, and you open GCP website, you could just see the differences. How Amazon talks about cloud. You're still selling compute storage network, but they talk business agility. What took a month for SQL Server now takes two hours. That's what you're selling, right? >> You're selling speed and you're selling automation, and you're selling value. >> Orchestration. So I think Google has to amp up their game, and amp up their game around that. >> Are they too technical, too geeky? >> Too nerdy, too geeky and still talking about infrastructure. >> Yeah sure, and I think Sam knows that too. >> And I think second part, which is, you know, they absolutely need to amp up their game not go head on and follow Amazon, find the newer applications and new use cases, where they can go ahead of Amazon. Whenever you're playing Art of War, either you can follow somebody or you go establish your own base. >> If they go frontal attack on these guys they'll lose, they've got to play the shadows. I think they can slingshot around them. I think the developer traction they have is strong, even though Amazon's got strong developer traction. Google's got some goodness with TensorFlow, they've got some great technology, but they've got to stop the game of we're Google, go with us. Enterprises don't work that way even though I get why they say that cause it's true. At some level from a alpha geek perspective, but this isn't the land of alpha geeks, these are real people that have jobs and enterprise IT that won't transform. >> They're real enterprises, who have real DBAs, and real server admins who really care about data services. Going back to the comment-- >> Not just the shiny new toy. I need reliability, proof. >> I want durability of this data. Don't just tell me I can get compute 10 times cheaper than Amazon. That's not what I care about. Change my, talk my language. I care about data services. I called data driven enterprises. >> Okay, as you guys go out and talk to customers, give me the anecdotal view of the landscape of customers. Because obviously the earnings came out. We saw, again, Amazon continuing to do well. But they've got some competition. We just laid and unpacked that. Customers now see this. What's kind of the the conversations in the boardrooms, and then in the trenches in IT and enterprise as they transform because IT is not a department anymore in the future enterprise. It's now a fabric of all things in cloud native. What are the conversations? Are they slowing down, obviously they want to go faster, is it a personnel issue? What are some of the conversations? >> I'll give you real example. We presented recently to a big, massive federal government agency. We cannot take their name out of legal. >> John: They spend a lot of money. >> Out of Washington, D.C. out here in the Bay area. >> CIA. Or, NSA. >> You're looking at the start-ups in the Bay area, and they were like, look why had we ever adopted the IBMs, the mainframes, and the EMCs, and the Dells of the world. We also know the wealth of the innovation is here in Silicon Valley. Right, so they come out once a year. And I can tell you, John, spending two hours that we did with them earlier in the week, and they are accelerating their journey to the cloud. Things that were foreign terms like micro services, that's how they want to build these federal agencies now. Every application has to have microservices. They are not truly there. I'll tell you that. They are not there, but that is top of mind for the CIA. >> And gov cloud has grown very fast, fedramp, all these services. >> Amazon called it Commercial Cloud Service, c2s, built for the government. And that entire team was here. >> Well Tarun great job. Congratulations on your opportunity we just talked about. Datos.IO. You guys, it's Datos.IO if you want to check out the website. You're going to be at Reinvent, you're going to come on theCUBE, we'll be there with two sets. Again, I have 50, you're doing Amazon, love the community there, they do a great job, Andy Jassy comes on, great group, Trace Carlson, among others. What are you expecting to see this year at Amazon? Besides the fact that it's going to be crowded and certainly the show of the year in terms of cloud. >> Momentum, they're going to accelerate the momentum. The amount of services they're planning to announce from, because we work with the team very closely, and the amount of acceleration they're showing, the new partners coming on board, and the partners like us who had one customer, and now we have 20 in Amazon cloud. You know, we just became an advanced technology partner, they understand that. >> So you're happy with how they're working with partners? >> Oh we love Amazon team. We became an advanced technology partner. They drilled us down for three months to prove themselves, yes, Datos can run on their infrastructure. You know, they want to go fast, but they want to go diligent fast. >> Yeah, we love Amazon too, of course. Our crowd chat solver's on their website as a case study using some of their stuff. Thanks so much for coming on, your final thoughts. Earnings, cloud, where are we? >> This is unstoppable force. It's an unstoppable force, we're in the first innings. There's so much opportunity ahead of us. And we couldn't have picked a beautiful market to than what we did. >> And true private cloud as we keep pointing out, turns out that's playing out. On prem activity's high. Your thoughts on on prem? True private cloud? >> It's going to survive, it's going to survive. But it's not going to be the growth place. >> But we think it will grow with the SaaS. >> With the Saas, I agree, but infrastructure. Infrastructure is not going to be growing. So that's our two cents, but you know, we'll be back in a couple of weeks, we have a phenomenal exciting product launch coming up. >> I just tweeted on Twitter this morning $1.5 billion is going to be coming out of on premise, non-differentiated labor operations. Which basically means, the rack and stacking some of these jobs are going to go away. But the growth is in automation, AI, and machine learning, and some SaaS tooling. >> Cloud applications. >> Cloud operations business models growing on premise. >> And those dollars are going to leak to the cloud. >> Yeah, and cloud, it's all to the cloud. Tarun, thanks so much. >> Thank you. >> Co-founder and CEO of Datos.IO. I'm John Furrier here for CUBE Conversation in Palo Alto at our studios, thanks for watching. (techno music)

>> SiliconANGLE Media presents ... theCUBE! Covering AlibabaCloud's annual conference. Brought to you by Intel. Now, here's John Furrier... >> Hello everyone, I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE, Wikibon, and theCUBE. We are here for an exclusive Cube conversations at the Alibaba Cloud conference here in Hangzhou, China. We're here with Dr. Wang, who's the chairman of the Alibaba Group Technology Committee as well as the founder of Alibaba Cloud, here in the new Museum of Inspiration at the event. Thanks for spending the time with me. >> Thank you for coming. >> So before we talk about Alibaba Cloud and all the goodness going on here at the conference, talk about this Museum of Inspiration. It is new, and it has kind of a display theme. You kind of walk through time. What was the motivation and the inspiration for the museum? >> Yeah, I think the keyword for the museum, inspiration, is really the inspiration that started the museum. I would say that there's two, really the artists thinking about that. The first thing is really about when people, people take a lot of things for granted. One of the goals for this museum, it just shows the people they probably see every day. But just let them, just, wow, okay, that's different from what I thought. I think a lot of people take for granted, but it's really a great invention, a great human contribution to the whole society. I think that one thing is really about that people understand why we got here today. So that's the first thing. The other thing is really about science and technology. When people are talking about science and technology, people often will say, whether we can combine science and technology. But I don't think that's the right way to describe the relationship between science and technology. I would say science and technology, really the two sides of the coin. I really want to see, let people to see two sides instead of mixing together and got one thing. So that's two things that's parallel, just like zero and one. They are two things. When they're put together in a computer, amazing things happen. If you mix the zero and the one, like half something, then it's just not that fun. So I really want to make sure it's the museum of science and art instead of the mixture of science and arts. So that's the one thing. The other thing is really about the inspiration of future. Most of the museum is really about the past, to show how we have in the past, and with less on the inspiration to help people to think about the future. This museum is really, when we think about everything over here, we did talk about the past, but we want to make sure people think about the future. That's the whole idea about the museum. >> And the computer industry is fairly young, if you go back to modern computing. But you kind of have a take here about how technology really is embedded in life. Talk more about that impact 'cause that seems to translate to the conference here at Alibaba, that technology isn't just about the speeds and the feeds, it's about the integration into life. >> Yeah, and I think that from this museum we can see actually I trace back the origin of all the technology. When people are talking about the computer technology, I really want to talk about the computing technology. And then we can trace back, see actually the human is the first signal computing device. Our Mother Nature created for us. If you look at the same things differently, you really can see the origin of that. I think in this museum we talk about two really original things. The first is about the nature origin of the Internet. When talking about Internet, people talk about our current technological infrastructure of Internet. When you look at the human history, how is when people walk, you create an Internet for Earth? You can see a lot of things can trace back. Then, with this kind of trace back, you can help us to think about what's going to happen next. The trace of the original idea is actually very important if you're thinking about technology. >> Talk about the story of Alibaba Cloud. That is not, It's new, Amazon has had it for around, early 2000's. But you guys came right after Amazon, 2009. Still young and growing. How does the Alibaba Cloud take the culture of this inspiration? What are some of the design principles of the Alibaba Cloud? >> Actually I would say the Alibaba Cloud is different from the Amazon Cloud. In the sense we have different vision about the future. Unfortunately though, we are put under the same umbrella called cloud computing by media, I will say that. So we are different, in the sense when the Amazon, actually I show great respect to Amazon. When Amazon started cloud computing, they are really talking about the utility. They're talking about how to cut the cost down. So basically, they start with the low cost of IT infrastructure. That's what I understand. When I started Alibaba Cloud, we know that actually cost is important for sure. But we know that actually the computing part is more important than the cost if you're thinking about the big data era. We started with thinking it's the acentric cloud computing. When you look at our first brochure and we put those words over there. That's almost nine years ago. We called it acentric cloud computing. Instead of the IT-centric cloud computing. This actually, it's not just an idea difference. It's actually, eventually, influenced of the underlying technology infrastructure. Our whole underlying technological infrastructure is designed for the data, instead of just for the IT deployment. >> Jack Ma was talking about this industrial revolution, this digital transformation. What strikes me is you guys have that same art and scientist dynamic, art and science coming together, reminds me of the Steve Jobs technology liberal arts thinking that spawns new creativity. Certainly the iPhone is a great example of that as one of the many things. But now the new generation is coming together. You have a big artist focus here at the event. Music festival, not just technology. How is that part of the focus at the event here? What does that mean for new developers? >> I think it's really the crossing behind that. If you're thinking about technology and now e-commerce, what's really the one thing behind that that's really changed the way of peoples' lives? Computing in that sense, computing is not just technology. It's really something that changes the way of life of every people. I think the e-commerce change the way of life of every people. In that sense, they are the same. If you look at the peoples' lives, they won't just live on technology. They won't just live on the arts. They need a life, love means everything. By nature, we have to make sure as consumers, they need something more than just one thing. I think we are very lucky we understand that. If you're thinking about the young people, I will give you a few numbers about this conference about young people. In China, we have a very specific word talking about the young people a couple of years ago. We call the 'badiho'. It basically means the generation born of the '80s. When people talk about 'jodiho', that basically means people born after '90s. And then people talking about the 'leniho' it's basically people born after 2000. I think that most of the visitors for this conference are 'leniho', 'jodiho', and 'badiho'. These are all young, all young people. >> The digital culture. >> It's a digital culture. I would rather use my own word in the book I would say instead of digital. For me, digital generation is already an old generation I would say. I would like to call this the online generation. They do everything online. Even the last generation do a lot of things digital because digital is everywhere. But I want to emphasize it's an online generation. They do everything online. >> Dr. Wang, talk about data. You mentioned that's the key ingredient, the fuel for innovation. That's impacting the city brain project you guys are doing. Talk about the city brain and the role of data and how that's impacting the societal users out there certainly here in China, the traffic is crowded. This is just an example of what else is out there. >> Okay. City brain actually it's, again it means different things based on the perspective. One thing that's probably important is the data. This is first time actually I think instead of using the big data, it's better to using what I call the data results. It's a better word than big data. I think the one fundamental thinking for the city brain is we find a human army. Humans finally realize actually that data results is the most precious resource for the city, instead of land and water supply. Because we already know that the land is limited. The water supply is limited. This is very important. It doesn't view data as a non-essential thing. It's just a part of your IT system. We finally realize that data is part of the city instead of part of your city IT system. I think it's a leap frog thinking, at least for me. When it got to that, and you realize that today all the existing IT systems cannot actually really embrace the data. IT system is just to support the people doing the work they used to do. And then you realize we need an infrastructure to really make the value from the data. Just like we have water supply for the city, then you can use the reservoir. Otherwise, the reservoir is useless for the city. I think city brain is just like a water supply system for the data. The city eventually can consume that. We start thinking it's a new infrastructure for the city just like water supply system, just like power grid, just like any way system. That's how we're thinking about it. This is the first thing. The reason we got to the traffic system is this is the problem every city has around the world. From my yesterday's presentation, I just joked about we build two roads for the city, which is too many. I was thinking a lot of people realize it. That's why Boston had the project. They want to get all the roads under the surface. Under surface. But it's still a road. It's still expensive. You know how much money they spend just to move all the roads. >> The big dig, I remember, that was the-- >> Yes, that's a big dig. I don't think that's, that's good for the transportation system, but I don't think that's the number one way for the growth of the city. I think probably most of the city don't have the money to do that. What the data city brain wants to do whether we can take the resource of data and we can optimize every aspect of the city so we can use less resource to support city growth. When we start with the traffic, it's just to make sure, you know that when we use the data to optimize the traffic lights, the idea behind that actually we use the data to optimize the time. How to just read the time. It's not just lights. And then if you're thinking, when we show the eventually, if you have enough data, then we can have less roads in the city but still got the same. >> So the Internet of Things is the hottest trend. 0bviously machine learning and artificial intelligence are part of that, and the cloud powers this new edge of the network, and the data has to flow. So the question that a lot of technologists who are architecting these solutions ask is how do you make the data go at a very low latency? That takes compute power. That takes a lot of technology. How does Alibaba Cloud think about the architecture? Obviously you have a strategic partner like Intel, Obviously with a lot of compute power. You got to think differently around making the data move. If it's like water, it needs to flow. So real time is really important, but self-driving cars, real time is down to the millisecond, nanosecond. How do you think about that as a technologist? >> I think the, if you go back to the Internet of things, I think it's still the Internet. I would say eventually, if you're thinking about the word cloud computing and people use edge computing and people talking about Internet of things. For me, it's just the computing of the Internet. Cloud computing is the computing of the Internet and edge computing is computing on the Internet. Even the IoT is the computing of the Internet. If you're talking about the data, I think eventually it's really about the data on the Internet. It's not data on the sensor. It's not data on the cloud. Basically it's data on the Internet. I would expect eventually the Internet infrastructure will be improved significantly. It's not an improved cloud. It's not improved edge computing. Or it's improvement of the IoT. But it's really, >> Together. >> it's together. >> So Intel, I was covering them, Mobile World Congress earlier in the year. And obviously five G. You need the mobile overlay, that's super important. You also have the end-to-end inside the cloud. Obviously Intel is a strategic partner. Can you talk about the relationship you have with Intel? And also your philosophy, technically speaking, with the ecosystem? Because it's not just Intel, it's everybody. There's a lot of people here at this event. American companies as well as international companies who are now going to be part of your ecosystem. >> Actually the, we certainly have a very good relationship with Intel. I think we share in some sense the same vision. I think that the number one thing is really about people learning about how important the computing is. For me, the Intel is not that, a chip selling company. Intel is really the provider of computing power. That's what I understand. And we can expect eventually the whole ecosystem is really about who is going to provide the computing power. Who is going to provide the infrastructure to make the data? Instead of just equipment supply, eventually the need for computing, and the need for data, will be the challenge for every company, including Alibaba Cloud. We are not, we are not immune from these challenges. We will feel the same challenge. What we want to do is really make sure that with all these partners, provide enough computing for the next 10 or 20 years. We want to make sure that there's enough data flow for the next 10 years. In that sense, it's not the traditional ecosystem as like you do this and you do that. It's basically how we can work together to really make sure we have the challenge for the data and computing in the next 10 years. >> Yesterday we covered the news that you guys announced 15, building and R&D over the next three years, which is a lot of money. Also it has a very international and global view. Academics with younger folks. Alibaba Cloud is going to be a part of that, I'm assuming. I'd love to get your thoughts on how you see that intersecting. But the question for you is the cloud world today is moving at very, very fast speed. We're seeing Amazon, for instance, has been the best in terms of new announcements every year. Not one or two, like a ton of announcements, a lot. How are you guys going to continue to keep the pace? To move faster because the city brain is a great project, but it's going to have more evolution. It's going to move fast. How are you guys keeping up with the pace? >> I think the only way, that's not just for the next 10 years. Actually when I started Alibaba Cloud, we take the same philosophy. Actually the user moves very fast than us. If you look at the users in China they move very fast probably than anywhere else around the world. If you use the city brain project, I would say city brain project is basically tell the people, we need the computing power more than any other task. You really can see that. People want you. If you can't satisfy their demand, then somebody else is going to do that. It's not something we want to move fast but >> You have to move fast. >> You have to move fast. That's why the China is special. I want to say China is not just a place for the market. China is the place that pushes you to move faster. That's more important than market size. >> You mentioned data technology and information technology kind of transferring to a new world. Software is also a big part of it. Software you have to compute, obviously with Intel and the relationships you have. But software is growing exponentially. Certainly in open source, we see Cloud Native Foundation here. They'll probably have Linux foundation. Open source is going to grow exponentially. Most of the code will be shipping. But you have more data growing exponentially. Software is eating the world, but data is eating software. That means data is greater than software. If you look at it that way, that's super important. As the new architects, you and I were just talking about how we've in the industry for a while. You certainly have an amazing career from Microsoft now at Alibaba. A new generation of architects and developers are going to create new innovations around this dynamic of data. What's your advice and how do you view that if you are 21 years old again right now and you were going to jump into studies and academic and or field. It's a whole new world. >> I think there's probably two suggestions. Not necessarily for the young generation, but I would say it's just a suggestion for the young generation to push that habit. The first thing you mentioned about the data eats software. Well, I would put it in a different perspective. I would say for the last generation, the last two or three generations, I would say the computer era, we are really talking about the computer software. That's pretty much in everything. For this generation, I would say we are talking about computing plus the data. That box is not important, but the computing power is more important. For the computing era, the box is important. >> There's no box. It's the world, it's the cloud. >> That's one thing. The implication for this, I want the young generation to push is, then we need the new infrastructure. Thinking about the build as a great vision, got to have the computer in every home. That's infrastructure. Today when you are in the computing process data era, the infrastructure is not there. I think the vision for the Alibaba Cloud is make sure that we have this infrastructure for the next 10 or 20 years so the young generation can take advantage of that and to do that innovation and inventions, just like computing in every home. >> That's very important. I think that also speaks to businesses, how enterprises, I remember my first start up, I had to buy all this equipment and put it into the telephone closet. Now, start ups and small businesses don't need IT departments. This has been a big growth area certainly for Alibaba Cloud. But now all businesses might have a small closet, not a big data center. This is going to change the nature of business. So work and play are coming together. This speaks to the Museum of Inspiration theme here where you can have work and play kind of integrate but yet still be separate in that analog digital world. What's your vision on this new dimension of everything doesn't have to be just digital? You can have an analog life and mix it with digital. >> Actually I was always sad. It's not, the world never has just one side. It always has two sides. The difference is which side is important at a particular time. Just like when people talk about digital and analog, the analog will exist forever. It's hard for you to kill. The question is whether you can find the most beauty from the digital at the same time you can most beautiful part of the analog. I would say that the people, just like when talking about software, people still loved the hardware. And people still loved the touch. The digital has to make sure it looks good. Will it work versus it looks good? I would say we want to make sure people live in a world with two sides, instead of just giving them one side of the world. >> You mentioned people still love hardware. I always say, a car drives but there's still an engine, and people like to understand the engine. There's a maker culture in the United States that's been growing over the past two decades. And now even more accelerated is the maker culture because of the edge and how technology has become part of the fabric of life. How do you see that maker culture being enabled by more cloud services? Because anyone can make a skateboard or motorcycle or a computer or a device now. Powering that with the cloud is an opportunity. How do you view that? >> I would say that eventually, if we have the broad definition of a cloud, I would say eventually, everything the maker makes will be part of the cloud. When talking about clouds, we're really talking about Internet, so every hardware, every piece of hardware will be part of Internet. I would say, if you look at the evolution of the Internet, Internet, it's just a backbone at the very beginning. Actually the first revolution the Internet made is really to make sure that every piece of software is a part of Internet. That's how we got the world wide web. I would say when talking about the maker culture, I would say eventually that every piece of hardware will be part of Internet. So Internet won't be complete without the hardware. In that sense, the cloud is a really essential part of that. >> There's some really interesting things happening here in China that I'm excited about. One of them is the nature of the user base and how close you guys are to that. In the US a similar scale but it's kind of spread over a bunch of other cloud providers. But the interesting phenomenon as data grows exponentially, as software grows exponentially in open source, things are becoming more decentralized. Without talking about the whole initial coin offerings, I know China has banned it and Russia's going to ban it. Other countries are putting a clamp down on crypto currency. Putting that aside, there's still blockchain as a potential disruptive enabler. You're seeing decentralization becoming a new architecture dynamic because you have to support the growth of these devices at the edge. Distributive computing has been around for a while, but now a decentralized architecture dynamic exists. How do you steer that technology direction? >> You have to separate from the the distributive architecture versus its physical location. I would say I like the blockchain idea very much. I think eventually it would be part of the Internet. It's not just something that sits on top of the Internet. It would be very fundamental, just like TCP and IP. This is low level, so this would be part of the Internet instead of standing on top of the Internet. Eventually, in that sense, Internet would be very distributed. By thinking that it's nothing, there's no decentralization exists. You still need, even though physically, it's in one place. >> It's almost decentralized, not 100 percent. >> Yeah, yeah. Obviously this would be different. Without Internet, without new software, that basically, just like PC. PC is really in a single box, and we use all software in a box. We distribute architecture. We could have decentralized, but everything actually is distributed. You still cannot trace that. You put like a meeting. A service in a data center. It's actually distributed over this one meeting service. In that sense, it's completely distributed. >> That server list too is a big trend where if you talk about the edge of the network, you got to move compute to the data sometimes. Or have compute on the edge. So this is going to be continued growth, you see that as well right? >> Yes, but I still think, if you use Silicon as a measure for this computing power, I would say if you can see there's more silicon on the edge, but I would say when we put one silicon on the edge, you probably have to put 100 silicons on the cloud. It's still kind of-- >> It's a relationship. >> It's a relationship, just like our body is very important but the brain consumes the most oxygen. >> It's important what's in the cloud then. You got to have the computing, have those ratios. It depends on the architecture. >> Yes, yes. >> Final question for you is as the folks in Silicon Valley, where we're based, and Palo Alto want to know is Alibaba, what it means to them? If you have a chance to say a few things about what Alibaba Cloud is to America, what would you like to say? >> I would say that actually they would just put the cloud computing aside. Just look at what it really means behind that. I think the cloud, we do have an understanding of what the cloud computing really means. At the very beginning actually, I wouldn't call the company a cloud computing company. I would call it a general computing company. It's really a fraction of what's thinking in China. Again, my comment is not just to view China as the market to sell your product. To view China as the place to inspire having a new product. >> And it's a global world now, the world is flat. >> Yes, just like United States, it's not, it's a place inspired. All the people around the world together to have a new idea. I think the people in China just love new things. They love to try new things. It really can shoot your size of your innovation. >> And it's a global collaboration, it's interesting. That phenomenon is going to continue. You've done amazing work here. Congratulations on the Museum of Inspiration and the projects you're working on. Personal question for you. What are you excited about now? We kind of joke about how old we are now, but the young people certainly have a great future ahead of them. But you have a lot of experience and you're steering Alibaba's technology committee across the group as well as being the founder of the cloud. What are you excited about right now, technically speaking? What's the big, or just impact? What's the big wave that you like? >> I think it's very exciting in a couple of things, three things I would say. The first is really about just look at technology itself. Just like when I described my book, it's really, really exciting in your life if you can see the Internet plus the computing and plus data, cause they're together. Just like you have this engine, you have the airplane, a couple of things, they're together wherever. This is a very, very exciting era. This is not just about a technology era. It's an era that all things happen at the same time, so that's very exciting. That's one thing. The second thing as you read about the city around over here, I think the the Alibaba the Hanzo, it's just a very special for Alibaba, but I think it's special for the other company as well. So this place is very special. Just to give you an idea where you are, this area has the most networked river in the past. If you look at the map, it's like Internet. I would say, all the people over here, just their mindset. It's just on an Internet mindset. Even goes back 100, 200 years ago because the river is the only way for them to travel, for the communications-- >> That's the data back then. >> That's exactly my point, see. If you look at the map, so this is very exciting. The other thing about that the Alibaba, for me, the Alibaba you know Alibaba, we have a very broad opinions. You can feel that. From a technology point of view, that basically means it's the place you can touch every aspect of technology. You have a very slight, very-- >> You have a great surface area aperture to look at impact of life. >> So you think about these three things together. It's hard to say the, you better get excited. >> It's a great time to be in technology, isn't it? Entertainment, e-commerce, web services. >> For me, when I work on the city brain project, it's just the beginning of machine learning. A lot of people, they are fighting for like, when people talk about speech recognition, they are fighting for the last one meter for the speech recognition. But if you're talking about city brain, it's the world. The most big AI project. And it's just the beginning. We just start with the one percent. >> It must be a lot of fun. You got a lot of data to work with. You have real life integration. It's super exciting. When are we going to see you in Silicon Valley? >> I appear regularly to Silicon Valley two or three times every year. We'll probably see sometime early next year. >> Thank you very much for the time, appreciate it. >> Thank you for coming to the conference and coming to the museum. >> Thank you very much for your inspiration. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.

>> SiliconANGLE Media presents ... theCUBE! Covering AlibabaCloud's annual conference. Brought to you by Intel. Now, here's John Furrier... >> Hello everyone, I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE, Wikibon, and theCUBE. We are here for an exclusive Cube conversations at the Alibaba Cloud conference here in Hangzhou, China. We're here with Dr. Wang, who's the chairman of the Alibaba Group Technology Committee as well as the founder of Alibaba Cloud, here in the new Museum of Inspiration at the event. Thanks for spending the time with me. >> Thank you for coming. >> So before we talk about Alibaba Cloud and all the goodness going on here at the conference, talk about this Museum of Inspiration. It is new, and it has kind of a display theme. You kind of walk through time. What was the motivation and the inspiration for the museum? >> Yeah, I think the keyword for the museum, inspiration, is really the inspiration that started the museum. I would say that there's two, really the artists thinking about that. The first thing is really about when people, people take a lot of things for granted. One of the goals for this museum, it just shows the people they probably see every day. But just let them, just, wow, okay, that's different from what I thought. I think a lot of people take for granted, but it's really a great invention, a great human contribution to the whole society. I think that one thing is really about that people understand why we got here today. So that's the first thing. The other thing is really about science and technology. When people are talking about science and technology, people often will say, whether we can combine science and technology. But I don't think that's the right way to describe the relationship between science and technology. I would say science and technology, really the two sides of the coin. I really want to see, let people to see two sides instead of mixing together and got one thing. So that's two things that's parallel, just like zero and one. They are two things. When they're put together in a computer, amazing things happen. If you mix the zero and the one, like half something, then it's just not that fun. So I really want to make sure it's the museum of science and art instead of the mixture of science and arts. So that's the one thing. The other thing is really about the inspiration of future. Most of the museum is really about the past, to show how we have in the past, and with less on the inspiration to help people to think about the future. This museum is really, when we think about everything over here, we did talk about the past, but we want to make sure people think about the future. That's the whole idea about the museum. >> And the computer industry is fairly young, if you go back to modern computing. But you kind of have a take here about how technology really is embedded in life. Talk more about that impact 'cause that seems to translate to the conference here at Alibaba, that technology isn't just about the speeds and the feeds, it's about the integration into life. >> Yeah, and I think that from this museum we can see actually I trace back the origin of all the technology. When people are talking about the computer technology, I really want to talk about the computing technology. And then we can trace back, see actually the human is the first signal computing device. Our Mother Nature created for us. If you look at the same things differently, you really can see the origin of that. I think in this museum we talk about two really original things. The first is about the nature origin of the Internet. When talking about Internet, people talk about our current technological infrastructure of Internet. When you look at the human history, how is when people walk, you create an Internet for Earth? You can see a lot of things can trace back. Then, with this kind of trace back, you can help us to think about what's going to happen next. The trace of the original idea is actually very important if you're thinking about technology. >> Talk about the story of Alibaba Cloud. That is not, It's new, Amazon has had it for around, early 2000's. But you guys came right after Amazon, 2009. Still young and growing. How does the Alibaba Cloud take the culture of this inspiration? What are some of the design principles of the Alibaba Cloud? >> Actually I would say the Alibaba Cloud is different from the Amazon Cloud. In the sense we have different vision about the future. Unfortunately though, we are put under the same umbrella called cloud computing by media, I will say that. So we are different, in the sense when the Amazon, actually I show great respect to Amazon. When Amazon started cloud computing, they are really talking about the utility. They're talking about how to cut the cost down. So basically, they start with the low cost of IT infrastructure. That's what I understand. When I started Alibaba Cloud, we know that actually cost is important for sure. But we know that actually the computing part is more important than the cost if you're thinking about the big data era. We started with thinking it's the acentric cloud computing. When you look at our first brochure and we put those words over there. That's almost nine years ago. We called it acentric cloud computing. Instead of the IT-centric cloud computing. This actually, it's not just an idea difference. It's actually, eventually, influenced of the underlying technology infrastructure. Our whole underlying technological infrastructure is designed for the data, instead of just for the IT deployment. >> Jack Ma was talking about this industrial revolution, this digital transformation. What strikes me is you guys have that same art and scientist dynamic, art and science coming together, reminds me of the Steve Jobs technology liberal arts thinking that spawns new creativity. Certainly the iPhone is a great example of that as one of the many things. But now the new generation is coming together. You have a big artist focus here at the event. Music festival, not just technology. How is that part of the focus at the event here? What does that mean for new developers? >> I think it's really the crossing behind that. If you're thinking about technology and now e-commerce, what's really the one thing behind that that's really changed the way of peoples' lives? Computing in that sense, computing is not just technology. It's really something that changes the way of life of every people. I think the e-commerce change the way of life of every people. In that sense, they are the same. If you look at the peoples' lives, they won't just live on technology. They won't just live on the arts. They need a life, love means everything. By nature, we have to make sure as consumers, they need something more than just one thing. I think we are very lucky we understand that. If you're thinking about the young people, I will give you a few numbers about this conference about young people. In China, we have a very specific word talking about the young people a couple of years ago. We call the 'badiho'. It basically means the generation born of the '80s. When people talk about 'jodiho', that basically means people born after '90s. And then people talking about the 'leniho' it's basically people born after 2000. I think that most of the visitors for this conference are 'leniho', 'jodiho', and 'badiho'. These are all young, all young people. >> The digital culture. >> It's a digital culture. I would rather use my own word in the book I would say instead of digital. For me, digital generation is already an old generation I would say. I would like to call this the online generation. They do everything online. Even the last generation do a lot of things digital because digital is everywhere. But I want to emphasize it's an online generation. They do everything online. >> Dr. Wang, talk about data. You mentioned that's the key ingredient, the fuel for innovation. That's impacting the city brain project you guys are doing. Talk about the city brain and the role of data and how that's impacting the societal users out there certainly here in China, the traffic is crowded. This is just an example of what else is out there. >> Okay. City brain actually it's, again it means different things based on the perspective. One thing that's probably important is the data. This is first time actually I think instead of using the big data, it's better to using what I call the data results. It's a better word than big data. I think the one fundamental thinking for the city brain is we find a human army. Humans finally realize actually that data results is the most precious resource for the city, instead of land and water supply. Because we already know that the land is limited. The water supply is limited. This is very important. It doesn't view data as a non-essential thing. It's just a part of your IT system. We finally realize that data is part of the city instead of part of your city IT system. I think it's a leap frog thinking, at least for me. When it got to that, and you realize that today all the existing IT systems cannot actually really embrace the data. IT system is just to support the people doing the work they used to do. And then you realize we need an infrastructure to really make the value from the data. Just like we have water supply for the city, then you can use the reservoir. Otherwise, the reservoir is useless for the city. I think city brain is just like a water supply system for the data. The city eventually can consume that. We start thinking it's a new infrastructure for the city just like water supply system, just like power grid, just like any way system. That's how we're thinking about it. This is the first thing. The reason we got to the traffic system is this is the problem every city has around the world. From my yesterday's presentation, I just joked about we build two roads for the city, which is too many. I was thinking a lot of people realize it. That's why Boston had the project. They want to get all the roads under the surface. Under surface. But it's still a road. It's still expensive. You know how much money they spend just to move all the roads. >> The big dig, I remember, that was the-- >> Yes, that's a big dig. I don't think that's, that's good for the transportation system, but I don't think that's the number one way for the growth of the city. I think probably most of the city don't have the money to do that. What the data city brain wants to do whether we can take the resource of data and we can optimize every aspect of the city so we can use less resource to support city growth. When we start with the traffic, it's just to make sure, you know that when we use the data to optimize the traffic lights, the idea behind that actually we use the data to optimize the time. How to just read the time. It's not just lights. And then if you're thinking, when we show the eventually, if you have enough data, then we can have less roads in the city but still got the same. >> So the Internet of Things is the hottest trend. 0bviously machine learning and artificial intelligence are part of that, and the cloud powers this new edge of the network, and the data has to flow. So the question that a lot of technologists who are architecting these solutions ask is how do you make the data go at a very low latency? That takes compute power. That takes a lot of technology. How does Alibaba Cloud think about the architecture? Obviously you have a strategic partner like Intel, Obviously with a lot of compute power. You got to think differently around making the data move. If it's like water, it needs to flow. So real time is really important, but self-driving cars, real time is down to the millisecond, nanosecond. How do you think about that as a technologist? >> I think the, if you go back to the Internet of things, I think it's still the Internet. I would say eventually, if you're thinking about the word cloud computing and people use edge computing and people talking about Internet of things. For me, it's just the computing of the Internet. Cloud computing is the computing of the Internet and edge computing is computing on the Internet. Even the IoT is the computing of the Internet. If you're talking about the data, I think eventually it's really about the data on the Internet. It's not data on the sensor. It's not data on the cloud. Basically it's data on the Internet. I would expect eventually the Internet infrastructure will be improved significantly. It's not an improved cloud. It's not improved edge computing. Or it's improvement of the IoT. But it's really, >> Together. >> it's together. >> So Intel, I was covering them, Mobile World Congress earlier in the year. And obviously five G. You need the mobile overlay, that's super important. You also have the end-to-end inside the cloud. Obviously Intel is a strategic partner. Can you talk about the relationship you have with Intel? And also your philosophy, technically speaking, with the ecosystem? Because it's not just Intel, it's everybody. There's a lot of people here at this event. American companies as well as international companies who are now going to be part of your ecosystem. >> Actually the, we certainly have a very good relationship with Intel. I think we share in some sense the same vision. I think that the number one thing is really about people learning about how important the computing is. For me, the Intel is not that, a chip selling company. Intel is really the provider of computing power. That's what I understand. And we can expect eventually the whole ecosystem is really about who is going to provide the computing power. Who is going to provide the infrastructure to make the data? Instead of just equipment supply, eventually the need for computing, and the need for data, will be the challenge for every company, including Alibaba Cloud. We are not, we are not immune from these challenges. We will feel the same challenge. What we want to do is really make sure that with all these partners, provide enough computing for the next 10 or 20 years. We want to make sure that there's enough data flow for the next 10 years. In that sense, it's not the traditional ecosystem as like you do this and you do that. It's basically how we can work together to really make sure we have the challenge for the data and computing in the next 10 years. >> Yesterday we covered the news that you guys announced 15, building and R&D over the next three years, which is a lot of money. Also it has a very international and global view. Academics with younger folks. Alibaba Cloud is going to be a part of that, I'm assuming. I'd love to get your thoughts on how you see that intersecting. But the question for you is the cloud world today is moving at very, very fast speed. We're seeing Amazon, for instance, has been the best in terms of new announcements every year. Not one or two, like a ton of announcements, a lot. How are you guys going to continue to keep the pace? To move faster because the city brain is a great project, but it's going to have more evolution. It's going to move fast. How are you guys keeping up with the pace? >> I think the only way, that's not just for the next 10 years. Actually when I started Alibaba Cloud, we take the same philosophy. Actually the user moves very fast than us. If you look at the users in China they move very fast probably than anywhere else around the world. If you use the city brain project, I would say city brain project is basically tell the people, we need the computing power more than any other task. You really can see that. People want you. If you can't satisfy their demand, then somebody else is going to do that. It's not something we want to move fast but >> You have to move fast. >> You have to move fast. That's why the China is special. I want to say China is not just a place for the market. China is the place that pushes you to move faster. That's more important than market size. >> You mentioned data technology and information technology kind of transferring to a new world. Software is also a big part of it. Software you have to compute, obviously with Intel and the relationships you have. But software is growing exponentially. Certainly in open source, we see Cloud Native Foundation here. They'll probably have Linux foundation. Open source is going to grow exponentially. Most of the code will be shipping. But you have more data growing exponentially. Software is eating the world, but data is eating software. That means data is greater than software. If you look at it that way, that's super important. As the new architects, you and I were just talking about how we've in the industry for a while. You certainly have an amazing career from Microsoft now at Alibaba. A new generation of architects and developers are going to create new innovations around this dynamic of data. What's your advice and how do you view that if you are 21 years old again right now and you were going to jump into studies and academic and or field. It's a whole new world. >> I think there's probably two suggestions. Not necessarily for the young generation, but I would say it's just a suggestion for the young generation to push that habit. The first thing you mentioned about the data eats software. Well, I would put it in a different perspective. I would say for the last generation, the last two or three generations, I would say the computer era, we are really talking about the computer software. That's pretty much in everything. For this generation, I would say we are talking about computing plus the data. That box is not important, but the computing power is more important. For the computing era, the box is important. >> There's no box. It's the world, it's the cloud. >> That's one thing. The implication for this, I want the young generation to push is, then we need the new infrastructure. Thinking about the build as a great vision, got to have the computer in every home. That's infrastructure. Today when you are in the computing process data era, the infrastructure is not there. I think the vision for the Alibaba Cloud is make sure that we have this infrastructure for the next 10 or 20 years so the young generation can take advantage of that and to do that innovation and inventions, just like computing in every home. >> That's very important. I think that also speaks to businesses, how enterprises, I remember my first start up, I had to buy all this equipment and put it into the telephone closet. Now, start ups and small businesses don't need IT departments. This has been a big growth area certainly for Alibaba Cloud. But now all businesses might have a small closet, not a big data center. This is going to change the nature of business. So work and play are coming together. This speaks to the Museum of Inspiration theme here where you can have work and play kind of integrate but yet still be separate in that analog digital world. What's your vision on this new dimension of everything doesn't have to be just digital? You can have an analog life and mix it with digital. >> Actually I was always sad. It's not, the world never has just one side. It always has two sides. The difference is which side is important at a particular time. Just like when people talk about digital and analog, the analog will exist forever. It's hard for you to kill. The question is whether you can find the most beauty from the digital at the same time you can most beautiful part of the analog. I would say that the people, just like when talking about software, people still loved the hardware. And people still loved the touch. The digital has to make sure it looks good. Will it work versus it looks good? I would say we want to make sure people live in a world with two sides, instead of just giving them one side of the world. >> You mentioned people still love hardware. I always say, a car drives but there's still an engine, and people like to understand the engine. There's a maker culture in the United States that's been growing over the past two decades. And now even more accelerated is the maker culture because of the edge and how technology has become part of the fabric of life. How do you see that maker culture being enabled by more cloud services? Because anyone can make a skateboard or motorcycle or a computer or a device now. Powering that with the cloud is an opportunity. How do you view that? >> I would say that eventually, if we have the broad definition of a cloud, I would say eventually, everything the maker makes will be part of the cloud. When talking about clouds, we're really talking about Internet, so every hardware, every piece of hardware will be part of Internet. I would say, if you look at the evolution of the Internet, Internet, it's just a backbone at the very beginning. Actually the first revolution the Internet made is really to make sure that every piece of software is a part of Internet. That's how we got the world wide web. I would say when talking about the maker culture, I would say eventually that every piece of hardware will be part of Internet. So Internet won't be complete without the hardware. In that sense, the cloud is a really essential part of that. >> There's some really interesting things happening here in China that I'm excited about. One of them is the nature of the user base and how close you guys are to that. In the US a similar scale but it's kind of spread over a bunch of other cloud providers. But the interesting phenomenon as data grows exponentially, as software grows exponentially in open source, things are becoming more decentralized. Without talking about the whole initial coin offerings, I know China has banned it and Russia's going to ban it. Other countries are putting a clamp down on crypto currency. Putting that aside, there's still blockchain as a potential disruptive enabler. You're seeing decentralization becoming a new architecture dynamic because you have to support the growth of these devices at the edge. Distributive computing has been around for a while, but now a decentralized architecture dynamic exists. How do you steer that technology direction? >> You have to separate from the the distributive architecture versus its physical location. I would say I like the blockchain idea very much. I think eventually it would be part of the Internet. It's not just something that sits on top of the Internet. It would be very fundamental, just like TCP and IP. This is low level, so this would be part of the Internet instead of standing on top of the Internet. Eventually, in that sense, Internet would be very distributed. By thinking that it's nothing, there's no decentralization exists. You still need, even though physically, it's in one place. >> It's almost decentralized, not 100 percent. >> Yeah, yeah. Obviously this would be different. Without Internet, without new software, that basically, just like PC. PC is really in a single box, and we use all software in a box. We distribute architecture. We could have decentralized, but everything actually is distributed. You still cannot trace that. You put like a meeting. A service in a data center. It's actually distributed over this one meeting service. In that sense, it's completely distributed. >> That server list too is a big trend where if you talk about the edge of the network, you got to move compute to the data sometimes. Or have compute on the edge. So this is going to be continued growth, you see that as well right? >> Yes, but I still think, if you use Silicon as a measure for this computing power, I would say if you can see there's more silicon on the edge, but I would say when we put one silicon on the edge, you probably have to put 100 silicons on the cloud. It's still kind of-- >> It's a relationship. >> It's a relationship, just like our body is very important but the brain consumes the most oxygen. >> It's important what's in the cloud then. You got to have the computing, have those ratios. It depends on the architecture. >> Yes, yes. >> Final question for you is as the folks in Silicon Valley, where we're based, and Palo Alto want to know is Alibaba, what it means to them? If you have a chance to say a few things about what Alibaba Cloud is to America, what would you like to say? >> I would say that actually they would just put the cloud computing aside. Just look at what it really means behind that. I think the cloud, we do have an understanding of what the cloud computing really means. At the very beginning actually, I wouldn't call the company a cloud computing company. I would call it a general computing company. It's really a fraction of what's thinking in China. Again, my comment is not just to view China as the market to sell your product. To view China as the place to inspire having a new product. >> And it's a global world now, the world is flat. >> Yes, just like United States, it's not, it's a place inspired. All the people around the world together to have a new idea. I think the people in China just love new things. They love to try new things. It really can shoot your size of your innovation. >> And it's a global collaboration, it's interesting. That phenomenon is going to continue. You've done amazing work here. Congratulations on the Museum of Inspiration and the projects you're working on. Personal question for you. What are you excited about now? We kind of joke about how old we are now, but the young people certainly have a great future ahead of them. But you have a lot of experience and you're steering Alibaba's technology committee across the group as well as being the founder of the cloud. What are you excited about right now, technically speaking? What's the big, or just impact? What's the big wave that you like? >> I think it's very exciting in a couple of things, three things I would say. The first is really about just look at technology itself. Just like when I described my book, it's really, really exciting in your life if you can see the Internet plus the computing and plus data, cause they're together. Just like you have this engine, you have the airplane, a couple of things, they're together wherever. This is a very, very exciting era. This is not just about a technology era. It's an era that all things happen at the same time, so that's very exciting. That's one thing. The second thing as you read about the city around over here, I think the the Alibaba the Hanzo, it's just a very special for Alibaba, but I think it's special for the other company as well. So this place is very special. Just to give you an idea where you are, this area has the most networked river in the past. If you look at the map, it's like Internet. I would say, all the people over here, just their mindset. It's just on an Internet mindset. Even goes back 100, 200 years ago because the river is the only way for them to travel, for the communications-- >> That's the data back then. >> That's exactly my point, see. If you look at the map, so this is very exciting. The other thing about that the Alibaba, for me, the Alibaba you know Alibaba, we have a very broad opinions. You can feel that. From a technology point of view, that basically means it's the place you can touch every aspect of technology. You have a very slight, very-- >> You have a great surface area aperture to look at impact of life. >> So you think about these three things together. It's hard to say the, you better get excited. >> It's a great time to be in technology, isn't it? Entertainment, e-commerce, web services. >> For me, when I work on the city brain project, it's just the beginning of machine learning. A lot of people, they are fighting for like, when people talk about speech recognition, they are fighting for the last one meter for the speech recognition. But if you're talking about city brain, it's the world. The most big AI project. And it's just the beginning. We just start with the one percent. >> It must be a lot of fun. You got a lot of data to work with. You have real life integration. It's super exciting. When are we going to see you in Silicon Valley? >> I appear regularly to Silicon Valley two or three times every year. We'll probably see sometime early next year. >> Thank you very much for the time, appreciate it. >> Thank you for coming to the conference and coming to the museum. >> Thank you very much for your inspiration. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.

>> Announcer: Live from midtown Manhattan, it's theCUBE, covering BigData New York City 2017, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media and its ecosystem sponsors. >> Okay, welcome back everyone, we're live in New York City, this is theCUBE's coverage of BigData NYC, this is our own event for five years now we've been running it, been at Hadoop World since 2010, it's our eighth year covering the Hadoop World which has evolved into Strata Conference, Strata Hadoop, now called Strata Data, and of course it's bigger than just Strata, it's about big data in NYC, a lot of big players here inside theCUBE, thought leaders, entrepreneurs, and great guests. I'm John Furrier, the cohost this week with Jim Kobielus, who's the lead analyst on our BigData and our Wikibon team. Our next guest is Yaron Haviv, who's with iguazio, he's the founder and CTO, hot startup here at the show, making a lot of waves on their new platform. Welcome to theCUBE, good to see you again, congratulations. >> Yes, thanks, thanks very much. We're happy to be here again. >> You're known in the theCUBE community as the guy on Twitter who's always pinging me and Dave and team, saying, "Hey, you know, you guys got to "get that right." You really are one of the smartest guys on the network in our community, you're super-smart, your team has got great tech chops, and in the middle of all that is the hottest market which is cloud native, cloud native as it relates to the integration of how apps are being built, and essentially new ways of engineering around these solutions, not just repackaging old stuff, it's really about putting things in a true cloud environment, with an application development, with data at the center of it, you got a whole complex platform you've introduced. So really, really want to dig into this. So before we get into some of my pointed questions I know Jim's got a ton of questions, is give us an update on what's going on so you guys got some news here at the show, let's get to that first. >> So since the last time we spoke, we had tons of news. We're making revenues, we have customers, we've just recently GA'ed, we recently got significant investment from major investors, we raised about $33 million recently from companies like Verizon Ventures, Bosch, you know for IoT, Chicago Mercantile Exchange, which is Dow Jones and other properties, Dell EMC. So pretty broad. >> John: So customers, pretty much. >> Yeah, so that's the interesting thing. Usually you know investors are sort of strategic investors or partners or potential buyers, but here it's essentially our customers that it's so strategic to the business, we want to... >> Let's go with GA of the projects, just get into what's shipping, what's available, what's the general availability, what are you now offering? >> So iguazio is trying to, you know, you alluded to cloud native and all that. Usually when you go to events like Strata and BigData it's nothing to do with cloud native, a lot of hard labor, not really continuous development and integration, it's like continuous hard work, it's continuous hard work. And essentially what we did, we created a data platform which is extremely fast and integrated, you know has all the different forms of states, streaming and events and documents and tables and all that, into a very unique architecture, won't dive into that today. And on top of it we've integrated cloud services like Kubernetes and serverless functionality and others, so we can essentially create a hybrid cloud. So some of our customers they even deploy portions as an Opix-based settings in the cloud, and some portions in the edge or in the enterprise deployed the software, or even a prepackaged appliance. So we're the only ones that provide a full hybrid experience. >> John: Is this a SAS product? >> So it's a software stack, and it could be delivered in three different options. One, if you don't want to mess with the hardware, you can just rent it, and it's deployed in Equanix facility, we have very strong partnerships with them globally. If you want to have something on-prem, you can get a software reference architecture, you go and deploy it. If you're a telco or an IoT player that wants a manufacturing facility, we have a very small 2U box, four servers, four GPUs, all the analytics tech you could think of. You just put it in the factory instead of like two racks of Hadoop. >> So you're not general purpose, you're just whatever the customer wants to deploy the stack, their flexibility is on them. >> Yeah. Now it is an appliance >> You have a hosting solution? >> It is an appliance even when you deploy it on-prem, it's a bunch of Docker containers inside that you don't even touch them, you don't SSH to the machine. You have APIs and you have UIs, and just like the cloud experience when you go to Amazon, you don't open the Kimono, you know, you just use it. So our experience that's what we're telling customers. No root access problems, no security problems. It's a hardened system. Give us servers, we'll deploy it, and you go through consoles and UIs, >> You don't host anything for anyone? >> We host for some customers, including >> So you do whatever the customer was interested in doing? >> Yes. (laughs) >> So you're flexible, okay. >> We just want to make money. >> You're pretty good, sticking to the product. So on the GA, so here essentially the big data world you mentioned that there's data layers, like data piece. So I got to ask you the question, so pretend I'm an idiot for a second, right. >> Yaron: Okay. >> Okay, yeah. >> No, you're a smart guy. >> What problem are you solving. So we'll just go to the simple. I love what you're doing, I assume you guys are super-smart, which I can say you are, but what's the problem you're solving, what's in it for me? >> Okay, so there are two problems. One is the challenge everyone wants to transform. You know there is this digital transformation mantra. And it means essentially two things. One is, I want to automate my operation environment so I can cut costs and be more competitive. The other one is I want to improve my customer engagement. You know, I want to do mobile apps which are smarter, you know get more direct content to the user, get more targeted functionality, et cetera. These are the two key challenges for every business, any industry, okay? So they go and they deploy Hadoop and Hive and all that stuff, and it takes them two years to productize it. And then they get to the data science bit. And by the time they finished they understand that this Hadoop thing can only do one thing. It's queries, and reporting and BI, and data warehousing. How do you do actionable insights from that stuff, okay? 'Cause actionable insights means I get information from the mobile app, and then I translate it into some action. I have to enrich the vectors, the machine learning, all that details. And then I need to respond. Hadoop doesn't know how to do it. So the first generation is people that pulled a lot of stuff into data lake, and started querying it and generating reports. And the boss said >> Low cost data link basically, was what you say. >> Yes, and the boss said, "Okay, what are we going to do with this report? "Is it generating any revenue to the business?" No. The only revenue generation if you take this data >> You're fired, exactly. >> No, not all fired, but now >> John: Look at the budget >> Now they're starting to buy our stuff. So now the point is okay, how can I put all this data, and in the same time generate actions, and also deal with the production aspects of, I want to develop in a beta phase, I want to promote it into production. That's cloud native architectures, okay? Hadoop is not cloud, How do I take a Spark, Zeppelin, you know, a notebook and I turn it into production? There's no way to do that. >> By the way, depending on which cloud you go to, they have a different mechanism and elements for each cloud. >> Yeah, so the cloud providers do address that because they are selling the package, >> Expands all the clouds, yeah. >> Yeah, so cloud providers are starting to have their own offerings which are all proprietary around this is how you would, you know, forget about HDFS, we'll have S3, and we'll have Redshift for you, and we'll have Athena, and again you're starting to consume that into a service. Still doesn't address the continuous analytics challenge that people have. And if you're looking at what we've done with Grab, which is amazing, they started with using Amazon services, S3, Redshift, you know, Kinesis, all that stuff, and it took them about two hours to generate the insights. Now the problem is they want to do driver incentives in real time. So they want to incent the driver to go and make more rides or other things, so they have to analyze the event of the location of the driver, the event of the location of the customers, and just throwing messages back based on analytics. So that's real time analytics, and that's not something that you can do >> They got to build that from scratch right away. I mean they can't do that with the existing. >> No, and Uber invested tons of energy around that and they don't get the same functionality. Another unique feature that we talk about in our PR >> This is for the use case you're talking about, this is the Grab, which is the car >> Grab is the number one ride-sharing in Asia, which is bigger than Uber in Asia, and they're using our platform. By the way, even Uber doesn't really use Hadoop, they use MemSQL for that stuff, so it's not really using open source and all that. But the point is for example, with Uber, when you have a, when they monetize the rides, they do it just based on demand, okay. And with Grab, now what they do, because of the capability that we can intersect tons of data in real time, they can also look at the weather, was there a terror attack or something like that. They don't want to raise the price >> A lot of other data points, could be traffic >> They don't want to raise the price if there was a problem, you know, and all the customers get aggravated. This is actually intersecting data in real time, and no one today can do that in real time beyond what we can do. >> A lot of people have semantic problems with real time, they don't even know what they mean by real time. >> Yaron: Yes. >> The data could be a week old, but they can get it to them in real time. >> But every decision, if you think if you generalize round the problem, okay, and we have slides on that that I explain to customers. Every time I run analytics, I need to look at four types of data. The context, the event, okay, what happened, okay. The second type of data is the previous state. Like I have a car, was it up or down or what's the previous state of that element? The third element is the time aggregation, like, what happened in the last hour, the average temperature, the average, you know, ticker price for the stock, et cetera, okay? And the fourth thing is enriched data, like I have a car ID, but what's the make, what's the model, who's driving it right now. That's secondary data. So every time I run a machine learning task or any decision I have to collect all those four types of data into one vector, it's called feature vector, and take a decision on that. You take Kafka, it's only the event part, okay, you take MemSQL, it's only the state part, you take Hadoop it's only like historical stuff. How do you assemble and stitch a feature vector. >> Well you talked about complex machine learning pipeline, so clearly, you're talking about a hybrid >> It's a prediction. And actions based on just dumb things, like the car broke and I need to send a garage, I don't need machine learning for that. >> So within your environment then, do you enable the machine learning models to execute across the different data platforms, of which this hybrid environment is composed, and then do you aggregate the results of those models, runs into some larger model that drives the real time decision? >> In our solution, everything is a document, so even a picture is a document, a lot of things. So you can essentially throw in a picture, run tensor flow, embed more features into the document, and then query those features on another platform. So that's really what makes this continuous analytics extremely flexible, so that's what we give customers. The first thing is simplicity. They can now build applications, you know we have tier one now, automotive customer, CIO coming, meeting us. So you know when I have a project, one year, I need to have hired dozens of people, it's hugely complex, you know. Tell us what's the use case, and we'll build a prototype. >> John: All right, well I'm going to >> One week, we gave them a prototype, and he was amazed how in one week we created an application that analyzed all the streams from the data from the cars, did enrichment, did machine learning, and provided predictions. >> Well we're going to have to come in and test you on this, because I'm skeptical, but here's why. >> Everyone is. >> We'll get to that, I mean I'm probably not skeptical but I kind of am because the history is pretty clear. If you look at some of the big ideas out there, like OpenStack. I mean that thing just morphed into a beast. Hadoop was a cost of ownership nightmare as you mentioned early on. So people have been conceptually correct on what they were trying to do, but trying to get it done was always hard, and then it took a long time to kind of figure out the operational model. So how are you different, if I'm going to play the skeptic here? You know, I've heard this before. How are you different than say OpenStack or Hadoop Clusters, 'cause that was a nightmare, cost of ownership, I couldn't get the type of value I needed, lost my budget. Why aren't you the same? >> Okay, that's interesting. I don't know if you know but I ran a lot of development for OpenStack when I was in Matinox and Hadoop, so I patched a lot of those >> So do you agree with what I said? That that was a problem? >> They are extremely complex, yes. And I think one of the things that first OpenStack tried to bite on too much, and it's sort of a huge tent, everyone tries to push his agenda. OpenStack is still an infrastructure layer, okay. And also Hadoop is sort of a something in between an infrastructure and an application layer, but it was designed 10 years ago, where the problem that Hadoop tried to solve is how do you do web ranking, okay, on tons of batch data. And then the ecosystem evolved into real time, and streaming and machine learning. >> A data warehousing alternative or whatever. >> So it doesn't fit the original model of batch processing, 'cause if an event comes from the car or an IoT device, and you have to do something with it, you need a table with an index. You can't just go and build a huge Parquet file. >> You know, you're talking about complexity >> John: That's why he's different. >> Go ahead. >> So what we've done with our team, after knowing OpenStack and all those >> John: All the scar tissue. >> And all the scar tissues, and my role was also working with all the cloud service providers, so I know their internal architecture, and I worked on SAP HANA and Exodata and all those things, so we learned from the bad experiences, said let's forget about the lower layers, which is what OpenStack is trying to provide, provide you infrastructure as a service. Let's focus on the application, and build from the application all the way to the flash, and the CPU instruction set, and the adapters and the networking, okay. That's what's different. So what we provide is an application and service experience. We don't provide infrastructure. If you go buy VMware and Nutanix, all those offerings, you get infrastructure. Now you go and build with the dozen of dev ops guys all the stack above. You go to Amazon, you get services. Just they're not the most optimized in terms of the implementation because they also have dozens of independent projects that each one takes a VM and starts writing some >> But they're still a good service, but you got to put it together. >> Yeah right. But also the way they implement, because in order for them to scale is that they have a common layer, they found VMs, and then they're starting to build up applications so it's inefficient. And also a lot of it is built on 10-year-old baseline architecture. We've designed it for a very modern architecture, it's all parallel CPUs with 30 cores, you know, flash and NVMe. And so we've avoided a lot of the hardware challenges, and serialization, and just provide and abstraction layer pretty much like a cloud on top. >> Now in terms of abstraction layers in the cloud, they're efficient, and provide a simplification experience for developers. Serverless computing is up and coming, it's an important approach, of course we have the public clouds from AWS and Google and IBM and Microsoft. There are a growing range of serverless computing frameworks for prem-based deployment. I believe you are behind one. Can you talk about what you're doing at iguazio on serverless frameworks for on-prem or public? >> Yes, it's the first time I'm very active in CNC after Cloud Native Foundation. I'm one of the authors of the serverless white paper, which tries to normalize the definitions of all the vendors and come with a proposal for interoperable standard. So I spent a lot of energy on that, 'cause we don't want to lock customers to an API. What's unique, by the way, about our solution, we don't have a single proprietary API. We just emulate all the other guys' stuff. We have all the Amazon APIs for data services, like Kinesis, Dynamo, S3, et cetera. We have the open source APIs, like Kafka. So also on the serverless, my agenda is trying to promote that if I'm writing to Azure or AWS or iguazio, I don't need to change my app. I can use any developer tools. So that's my effort there. And we recently, a few weeks ago, we launched our open source project, which is a sort of second generation of something we had before called Nuclio. It's designed for real time >> John: How do you spell that? >> N-U-C-L-I-O. I even have the logo >> He's got a nice slick here. >> It's really fast because it's >> John: Nuclio, so that's open source that you guys just sponsor and it's all code out in the open? >> All the code is in the open, pretty cool, has a lot of innovative ideas on how to do stream processing and best, 'cause the original serverless functionality was designed around web hooks and HTTP, and even many of the open source projects are really designed around HTTP serving. >> I have a question. I'm doing research for Wikibon on the area of serverless, in fact we've recently published a report on serverless, and in terms of hybrid cloud environments, I'm not seeing yet any hybrid serverless clouds that involve public, you know, serverless like AWS Lambda, and private on-prem deployment of serverless. Do you have any customers who are doing that or interested in hybridizing serverless across public and private? >> Of course, and we have some patents I don't want to go into, but the general idea is, what we've done in Nuclio is also the decoupling of the data from the computation, which means that things can sort of be disjoined. You can run a function in Raspberry Pi, and the data will be in a different place, and those things can sort of move, okay. >> So the persistence has to happen outside the serverless environment, like in the application itself? >> Outside of the function, the function acts as the persistent layer through APIs, okay. And how this data persistence is materialized, that server separate thing. So you can actually write the same function that will run against Kafka or Kinesis or Private MQ, or HTTP without modifying the function, and ad hoc, through what we call function bindings, you define what's going to be the thing driving the data, or storing the data. So that can actually write the same function that does ETL drop from table one to table two. You don't need to put the table information in the function, which is not the thing that Lambda does. And it's about a hundred times faster than Lambda, we do 400,000 events per second in Nuclio. So if you write your serverless code in Nuclio, it's faster than writing it yourself, because of all those low-level optimizations. >> Yaron, thanks for coming on theCUBE. We want to do a deeper dive, love to have you out in Palo Alto next time you're in town. Let us know when you're in Silicon Valley for sure, we'll make sure we get you on camera for multiple sessions. >> And more information re:Invent. >> Go to re:Invent. We're looking forward to seeing you there. Love the continuous analytics message, I think continuous integration is going through a massive renaissance right now, you're starting to see new approaches, and I think things that you're doing is exactly along the lines of what the world wants, which is alternatives, innovation, and thanks for sharing on theCUBE. >> Great. >> That's very great. >> This is theCUBE coverage of the hot startups here at BigData NYC, live coverage from New York, after this short break. I'm John Furrier, Jim Kobielus, after this short break.

(Upbeat Music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit, North America, 2017, brought to you by the Linux Foundation and The Red Hat. >> Hey, welcome back everyone, live here in Los Angeles, California for theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Open Source Summit in North America. I'm John Furrrier, with my co-star Stu Miniman, Our next guest is Patrick Chanezan, who is a member of the technical docker, also on the governing board of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, also known as CNCF, which is the hottest part of the open-source community right now. It's very fast, we're very trendy, a lot of people are on the bandwagon, a lot of contribution going on. Welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you. >> Hey, thanks, John and Stu, it's very good to be back on theCUBE. >> Docker's been just a great company to follow since the beginning, the birth of Docker to the transformation from Dark Cloud to Docker. It's just a great team. We have a lot of respect for you guys. Congratulations. But the CNCF right now is the hottest thing, there's more platinum sponsors than I think maybe members. It seems to be very hot. Industry loves it, developer is going crazy about it, why is CNCF so hot? What's your perspective on that? >> What we're seeing right now is really the realization of adoption of containers, we talked about it two years ago. It was very early, and people were starting to use Docker and just covering containers. Today they're really putting them into production, and what we see at Docker with our customer base is that they are using it more and more to modernize traditional applications. So we see tremendous use of containers everywhere in enterprises, and the rise of CNCF is tied to that, I think. We're seeing more and more developers joining the bandwagon, more and more systems being built based on containers. And at Docker, we're playing a big role into that. >> Patrick, for a couple years, the chant was Docker, Docker, Docker, and sometimes people say, "Cubernetti's is where the hotness is." Well underneath that, there's containers. And a lot of those containers, Docker's involved there. Maybe you can help us understand the nuance a little bit as the Cubernetti's wave has grown, sure there was the Mezos, Docker Swarm, Cubernetti's war, if you will there, but what does this mean for Docker? What are you seeing from your customers? Give us the update on Docker itself. We'll probably need to get into the Mobi stuff, too, as we get into the interview. >> Sure, definitely. That's a big question, so let's start with the beginning. When enterprises adopt containers, what happens is that usually it starts with the wrappers who are adopting containers with Docker. So they download Docker for their Windows machine, or for their Mac, or on Linux, they start modernizing their applications. What we see is more and more enterprising wrappers, modernizing existing applications by Dockerizing them, and then the next step is that they want to put that into production. For that, you need the whole system. So at Docker, we have two systems. We have Docker C and Docker E, our enterprise version that has role-based controlled sequencing and all that good stuff. There are lots of different components that you need in order to have a production container system, and so Cuberneris, the orchestration engine is one piece of that. At Docker, we have swarm kits. But there are lots of other different components and lots of different layers to that system. So you have the infrastructure layer that you are using to deploy that inside the firewall or in different cloud providers. Many different solutions there. At Docker, we have one that's called infrakit, that we're using in our additions, to deploy it everywhere. Then on top of that, you need some version of Linux. At Docker Con in April, we released a project called Linuxkit, which helps you do that. On top of that, you need a container run-time. Traditionally, it's been Docker. Right now, we re-factored the Docker codebase to extract a core run-time component that's called container G, which we donated to CNCF. Container G is nearing one or better, so it would be one of them pretty soon. Then, on top of that, you need an orchestration engine. Docker E comes with its own orchestration based on swarm, Cuberneris is another orchestration engine that people like. Cuberneris, behind the scenes, is using Docker, and right now we are working very closely with theCUBE rneris community to implement CRI container G. So CRI is the container run-time interface in Cuberneris that lets you plug in different engines to plug container G in the place of Docker in there. >> Stu: There's a lot of pieces in here. We had too many interviews yesterday talking about the Open Container Initiative, or OCI, which really made sure we've got the 1.0 version of that done. What container format, seems like we're in agreement. We're not fighting over that kind of piece anymore. From the Cubernetti's community, I heard loud and clear, they're like, we've got container D. We've kind of got what we want. We're happy it's open-sourced. We're going. We were at Docker Con when you annouced Mobi, which is kind of open-source, and it felt like we were still trying to figure out all those pieces. Give us the update as to Mobi, you're talking at the open source show, you talk a little bit about CE and EE being the productized versions, but part of it is what we used to think of as Docker is now Mobi, and the company Docker versus the project. You kind of teased those apart a little bit, right? >> Yes. Exactly. And actually, that's what I came here at the Open Summit to talk about, to give people an update on the Mobi project. So what we announced back in April was the launch of the Mobi project, which is the end of a two year re-factoring of the Docker codebase into different components. So all these components on the stack that I told you about, we just tease them out from the Docker codebase so that it's a modular set of components that you can assemble together. Mobi is three things. It's an open source project where people can collaborate in container-based systems. It's also a tool that we're using to assemble our components into Mobi Corp, which is the upstream of Docker products. Then it's also a set of lots of components, like container G, Linux, Infrakit, Notary, and all the projects I talked about. One other thing we've started doing since April as well is we started proposing to donate some of these container projects to CNCF. So container G is already part of CNCF now. Recently, this summer, we proposed Infrakit, and they think it's a little bit too early for donation, because they want to see other, different projects in there. Right now we're in the process of donating and proposing Notary, so there's an active discussion in there, and I hope that the vote will happen probably next week or something like that. So Notary is the component that we're using for Docker, and we think that this could be used in lots of different Cloud Native systems, so it really has its place in the CNCF. >> So identity component for the container management, or what specifically is that going to address? >> So Notary is the piece that we're using in Docker Con Contrast to make sure that you can trust the images that you've built. A signed signature should be able to revoke all the signatures, all the kind of features that our customers love in Docker E. >> John: It's kind of like Stu and me on Twitter, he's verified, I'm not. But this is important, because now, this is a stamp of approval, if you will, that the community can look to. >> Yeah, definitely. So it's something that we implement in Docker, and now people building other containment systems who will be able to use it. And so Mobi saw a lot of traction for its different projects, some of them are going to CNCF, some of them are growing by themselves. On the Docker side, we made some progress prioritizing all that with Docker C and Docker E. We had a 1706 launch of Docker E recently, with lots of new role-based axis control, controls for enterprises, who are adopting it essentially to modernize their traditional apps. >> Take us through a kind of personal question. You were just at a board meeting with the CNCF. Did everyone show up or are people calling in? >> I think Alexi Richardson was the only one, maybe two people on the phone. >> John: Was Sam Redjay there? >> Sam was not there either, but Epona was standing for him. So the room was full, and to me it's really an impressive achievement, two years after we helped start the CNCF. The first meetings were 10, 15 people at Google deciding to create this foundation, and today, maybe we're twenty or thirty people around the table. An\d everybody-- >> Even before that Google meeting, we were covering theCUBE Con Cubernettis' movement early on from your event. So I think, out of Docker Con and some of the Linux Foundation events, the early momentum, we were there, Stu. Then it became the CNCF, and they decided, hey, let's get the Cloud Native Foundation. So it's interesting to me, seeing the growth from the beginning. And it's unique to have that opportunity to be in the front lines of an organically developing group. It wasn't really build the table and come, this was a realization. >> It was a realization and also a concerted effort to build something together to show customers where the containment systems were going in terms of architecture-- >> What were the factors beside, I mean Docker was big driver. Notably, you should get the credit for pioneering the space. But what were the drivers for this coalescing, this call to arms, if you will, or this organic formation of CNCF. What were the key drivers in your mind. Obviously, containers is one. What are the other ones? >> Yeah, to me, containers is a big one, because when you are starting to design your system with containers in mind, you need to change lots of things, how you're building them and things like that. And how you are architecting things together. There were lots of questions about how you do the balancing in that kind of system, how do you do monitoring, how do you do tracing. The CNCF was assembled so that all these components have a place where we can show our inter-repairability between them. So Docker is part of that, Mezos is part of that, as well as Cuberneris. There's a big inter-repairability work that's happening in there. We had a report in the board meeting today about the new CI Initiative that tests different CNCF projects together. >> John: What CI? >> Sorry, continuous integration. >> John: Got it, yeah. >> So there's the continuous integration-- >> John: Not conversion infrastructure. >> Oh, you're right, yeah. >> We always get acronym-ed up. But Chris Anazik was talking yesterday about the graduation path, still waiting to see something graduate from the process. What's going to graduate first? Any bets, what's the betting, what betting is going on? Do you guys actually make bets? Is there a fantasy drafting going on? >> I don't think that really matters, what matters is really adoption of the components. >> Okay, so what's happening on the graduation scale? What's coming out of the woodworks? What's next? What's going to graduate first? >> So one thing I'm curious about is whether Container G will graduate, because it's kind of mature now, it's reaching 1-0 with the CRI and soon integration in Docker, it may be a good candidate for graduation. For the others, I don't know which ones would be first into the graduation process. >> Well, we know it's a high bar, for sure. >> Patrick, the stuff that's getting mature. What about some of the roadmap there? From Docker and CNCF, something like serverless containers, first generation, are going to be important. We had too many interviews this week talking about, today, many of the containers we'll see in the future where serverless and open Faz and things like that go. So how does that all fit in? Can you give us a Docker and a CNCF view on that? >> Let's talk about the CNCF view first. CNCF is working on lots of different areas where there needs to be more definition about what Cloud Native means for storage, for example, with the CSI Initiative, container storage interface, CNI, container networking interface, and then there's the working group for CI, which is about integrating all these projects together, but the working group I'm most interested in is the serverless one. So we have a Docker rep at the serverless working group, and there we're trying to define what a portable, serverless stack looks like. And at Docker, we're naturally interested in this -- >> Of course, Serverless is a beautiful thing. >> Most of these projects are running on top of Docker, so open Faz for people-- >> I got to ask you, Patrick, because we love serverless, I have a love/hate relationship with the word serverless because technically it's a beautiful thing, but there's servers involved. I'm an old-school, so I kind of look at it differently. The younger generation, they want infrastructure as code. This is a clear obvious thing. It was once a dream, but now it's become a reality. What's your position on that? Where is it on the progress bar? How close are we to serverless? >> I'd say there's an initial adoption of serverless on one of the few stacks that exist out there today. So you have the hosted services, the Faz services, from Amazon, Microsoft, and Google, where I'm more interested, and I think customers are kind of looking for that, is a portable way of doing that. For example, in studying that on top of Docker platforms, so that's what projects like Open Faz is doing. Right now, I think we're really in the stage of discussions with CNCF of what a portable service layer would look like so that you could focus on your code, but be able to deploy on Prim, on top of Docker, or in different cloud providers. So that portability aspect to me is very important there. And I think it's important for customers as well. To me, also, I'm an old timer as well, I used to pitch a platform as a service at the beginning of it, Google App Engine, many years ago. To me, it's kind of a feeling of deja vu. We're kind of re-inventing that, but with containers and in a much more portable way. >> The beautiful thing about being an old-timer is we get to look back and, not so much to the young kids, get off my lawn, we had to walk to school with bare feet in the snow, build our own libraries. I was just talking to Eilene, she's like, "Oh, my low-level class was C and my high-level class was Python." I'm like, "Our low-level class was machine code "and high-level wasn't even C yet." >> Yesterday, at the party, I was discussing with one of the IBM engineers, who's working on Linux and containers on mainframe, and we were talking about GCL, and that's the type of feeling that we got. Like we're getting higher up in the stack, and I think for modern developers, it really helped them-- >> It's a beautiful thing right now. Just think about the young guns that are coming up. This is a beautiful library of options now. 90% of the code is leverage-able. That's like unbelievable. So it really allows the creativity of the developer to be a lot more about structural engineering code-base rather than just being very creative on the 10-20% of real intellectual property that they can bring to the table. >> I would add something, it's really about creating value, as opposed to building infrastructure. When we're getting up the stack, and serverless is an example of that, it's really about creating value for enterprises, and that's what these wrappers are about. >> When you start dreaming in code, you know you're doing good. Patrick, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, and congratulations on all the success with CNCF, and certainty Docker. You guys continue to impress and do a great job. I know there's some changes over there we're looking for, some of the cool stuff graduating out of CNCF, more Docker container goodness from you guys. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. We appreciate it. I'm John Furrier, we're live in Los Angeles, California, for the Open Source Summit North America coverage with theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman back with more after this short break.