(upbeat music) >> Welcome everyone to theCUBE presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase, the theme here is Data as Code. This is season two, episode two of our ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem. And talk about the future of data, future of analytics, the future of development and all kind of cool stuff in Multicloud. I'm your host, John Furrier. Today we're joined by Ed Bailey, Senior Technology, Technical Evangelist at Cribl. Thanks for coming on the queue here. >> I thank you for the invitation, thrilled to be here. >> The theme of this session is the observability lake, which I love by the way I'm getting into that in a second. A breach investigation's best friend, which is a great topic. Couple of things, one, I like the breach investigation angle, but I also like this observability lake positioning, because I think this is a teaser of what's coming, more and more data usage where it's actually being applied specifically for things here, it's observability lake. So first, what is an observability lake? Why is it important? >> Why it's important is technology professionals, especially security professionals need data to make decisions. They need data to drive better decisions. They need data to understand, just to achieve understanding. And that means they need everything. They don't need what they can afford to store. They don't need not what vendor is going to let them store. They need everything. And I think as a point of the observability lake, because you couple an observability pipeline with the lake to bring your enterprise of data, to make it accessible for analytics, to be able to use it, to be able to get value from it. And I think that's one of the things that's missing right now in the enterprises. Admins are being forced to make decisions about, okay, we can't afford to keep this, we can afford to keep this, they're missing things. They're missing parts of the picture. And by bringing, able to bring it together, to be able to have your cake and eat it too, where I can get what I need and I can do it affordably is just, I think that's the future, and it just drives value for everyone. >> And it just makes a lot of sense data lake or the earlier concert, throw everything into the lake, and you can figure it out, you can query it, you can take action on it real time, you can stream it. You can do all kinds of things with it. Verb observability is important because it's the most critical thing people are doing right now for all kinds of things from QA, administration, security. So this is where the breach piece comes in. I like that's part of the talk because the breached investigation's best friend, it implies that you got the secret sourced to behind it, right? So, what is the state of the breach investigation today? What's going on with that? Because we know breaches, we see 'em out there, but like, why is this the best friend of a breach investigator? >> Well, and this is unfortunate, but typically there's an enormous delay between breach and detection. And right now, there's an IBM study, I think it's 287 days, but from the actual breach to detection and containment. It's an enormous amount of time. And the key is so when you do detect a breach, you're bringing in your instant, your response team, and typically without an observability lake, without Cribl solutions around observability pipeline, you're going to have an incomplete picture. The incident response team has to first to understand what's the scope of the breach. Is it one server? Is it three servers? Is it all the servers? You got to understand what's been compromised, what's been the end, what's the impact? How did the breach occur in the first place? And they need all the data to stitch that together, and they need it quickly. The more time it takes to get that data, the more time it takes for them to finish their analysis and contain the breach. I mean, hence the, I think about an 87, 90 days to contain a breach. And so by being able to remove the friction, by able to make it easier to achieve these goals, what shouldn't be hard, but making, by removing that friction, you speed up the containment and resolution time. Not to mention for many system administrators, they don't simply have the data because they can afford to store the data in their SIEM. Or they have to go to their backup team to get a restore which can take days. And so that's-- It's just so many obstacles to getting resolution right now. >> I mean, it's just, you're crawling through glass there, right? Because you think about it like just the timing aspect. Where is the data? Where is it stored and relevant and-- >> And do you have it at all? >> And you have it at all, and then, you know, that person doesn't work anywhere, they change jobs. I mean, who is keeping track of all this? You guys have now, this capability where you can come in and do the instrumentation with the observability lake without a lot of change to the environment, which is not the way it used to be. Used to be, buy a tool, build a platform. Cribl has a solution that eases the struggles with the enterprise. What specifically is that pain point? And what do you guys do specifically? >> Well, I'll start out with kind of example, what drew me to Cribl, so back in 2018. I'm running the Splunk team for a very large multinational. The complexity of that, we were dealing with the complexity of the data, the demands we were getting from security and operations were just an enormous issue to overcome. I had vendors come to me all the time that will solve your problems, but that means you got to move to our platform where you have to get rid of Splunk or you have to do this, and I'm losing something. And what Cribl stream brought into, was I could put it between my sources and my destinations and manage my data. And I would have flow control over the data. I don't have to lose anything. I could keep continuing use our existing analytics tools, and that sense of power and control, and I don't have to lose anything. I was like, there's something wrong here. This is too good to be true. And so what we're talking about now in terms of breach investigation, is that with Cribl stream, I can create a clone of my data to an object store. So this is in, this is almost any object store. So it can be AWS, it could be the other vendor object stores. It could be on-prem object stores. And then I can house my data, I can house all my data at the cheapest possible price. So instead of eating up my most expensive storage, I put all my data in my object store. And I only put the data I need for the detections in my SIEM. So if, and hopefully never, but if you do have a breach, lock stream has a wonderful UI that makes a trivial to then pick my data out of my object store and restore it back into my SIEM so that my IR team has to develop a complete picture of how the breach happen. What's the scope? What is their lateral movement and answer those questions. And it just, it takes the friction away. Just like you said, just no more crawling over glass. You're running to your solution. >> You mentioned object store, and you're streaming that in. You talk about the Cribble stream tool. I'm assuming there when you're streaming the pipeline stuff, but is there a schema involved? Is there database challenges? What, how do you guys look at that? I know you're vendor agnostic. I like that piece, you plug in and you leverage all the tools that are out there, Splunk, Datadog, whatever. But how about on the database side, what's the impact there? >> Well, so I'm assuming you're talking about the object store itself, so we don't have to apply the schema. We can fit the data to whichever the object store is. We structure the data so it makes it easier to understand. For example, if I want to see communications from one IP to another IP, we structure it to make it easier to see that and query that, but it is just, we're-- Yeah, it's completely vendor neutral and this makes it so simple, so simple to enable, I think-- >> So no pre-defined schema needed. >> No, not at all. And this, it made it so much easier. I think we enabled this for the enterprise. I think it took us three hours to do, and we were able to then start, I mean, start cutting our retention costs dramatically. >> Yeah, it's great when you get that kind of value, time to value critical and all the skeptics fall to the sides pretty quickly. (chuckles) I got to ask you, well, go ahead. >> So I say, I mean, previously, I would have to go to our backup team. We'd have to open up a ticket, we'd have to have a bridge, then we'd have to go through the process of pulling tape and being, it could take, you know, hours, hours if not days to restore the amount of data we needed. And just it, you know, we were able to run to our goals, and solve business problems instead of focusing on the process steps of getting things done. >> Right, so take me through the architecture here and some customer examples, 'cause you have the Cribble streaming there, observability pipeline. That's key, you mentioned that. >> Yes. >> And then they build out these observability lakes from that. So what is the impact of that? Can you share the customers that are using that solution? What are they seeing for benefits? What are some of the impact? Can you give us some specifics? >> I mean, I can't share with all the exact customer names. I can definitely give you some examples. Like referenceable conference would be TransUnion, so that I came from TransUnion. I was one of the first customers and it solved enormous number of problems for us. Autodesk is another great example. The idea that we're able to automate and data practices. I mean, just for example, what we were talking about with backups. We'd have to, you have to put a lot of time into managing your backups in your inner analytics platforms, you have to. And then you're locked into custom database schemas, you're locked into vendors. And it's also, it's still, it's expensive. So being able to spend a few hours, dramatically cut your costs, but still have the data available, and that's the key. I didn't have to make compromises, 'cause before I was having to say, okay, we're going to keep this, we're going to just drop this and hope for the best. And we just don't, we just didn't have to do that anymore. I think for the same thing for TransUnion and Autodesk, the idea that we're going to lower our cost, we're going to make it easier for our administrators to do their job and so they can spend more time on business value fundamentals, like responding to a breach. You're going to spend time working with your teams, getting value observability solutions and stop spending time on writing custom solutions using to open source tools. 'Cause your engineering time is the most precious asset for any enterprise and you got to focus your engineering time on where it's needed the most. >> Yeah, and they can't underestimate the hassle and cost of ownership, of swapping out pre-existing stuff, just for the sake of having a functionality. I mean that's a big-- >> It's pain and that's a big thing about lock stream is that being vendor neutral is so important. If you want to use the Splunk universal forwarder, that's great. If you want to use Beats, that's awesome. If you want to use Fluentd, even better. If you want to use all three, you can do that too. It's the customer choice and we're saying to people, use what suits your needs. And if you want to write some of your data to elastic, that's great. Some of your data to Splunk, that's even better. Some of it to, pick your pick, fine as well or Exabeam. You have the choices to put together, put your own solutions together and put your data where you need it to be. We're not asking you only in our ecosystem to work with only our partners. We're letting you pick and choose what suits your business. >> Yeah, you know, that's the direction I was just talking about the Amazon folks around their serverless. You know, you can use any tool, you know, you can, they have that core architecture for everything, the S3 and then pick whatever you want to use. SageMaker, just that other thing. This is the new way. That's the way it has to be to be effective. How do you guys handle that? What's been the reaction from customers? Do they like, roll their eyes and doubt you guys, or can you do it? Are they skeptical? How fast can you convert 'em over? (chuckles) >> Right, and that's always the challenge. And that's, I mean, the best part of my day is talking to customers. I love hearing and feedback, what they like, what they don't and what they need. And of course I was skeptical. I didn't believe it when I first saw it because I was like this, you know, because I'm, I was used to being locked in. I was used to having to put a lot of effort, a lot of custom code, like, what do you mean? It's this easy? I believe I did the first, this is 2018, and I did our first demos, like 30 minutes in, and I cut about 1/2 million dollars out of our license in the first 30 minutes in our first demo. And I was stunned because I mean, it's like, this is easy. >> Yeah, I mean-- >> Yeah, exactly. I mean, this is, and then this is the future. And then for example, we needed to bring in so like the security team wanted to bring in a UBA solution that wasn't part of the vendor ecosystem that we were in. And I was like, not a problem. We're going to use log stream. We're going to clone a copy of our data to the UBA solution. We were able to get value from this UBA solution in weeks. What typically is a six month cycle to start getting value. And it just, it was just too easy and the best part of it. And the thing is, it just struck me was my engineers can now spend their time on delivering value instead of integrations and moving data around. >> Yeah, and also we can spend more time preventing breaches. But what's interesting is counterintuitive here is that, if you, as you add more flexibility and choice, you'd think it'd be harder to handle a breach, right? So, now let's go back to the scenario. Now you guys, say an organization has a breach, and they have the observability pipeline, They got the lake in place, your observability lake, take me through the investigation. How easy is it, what happens? How they start it, what goes on? >> So, once your SOC detects a breach, then they bring in the idea. Typically you're going to bring in your incident response team. So what we did, and this is one more way that we removed that friction, we cleaned up the glass, is we delegate to the instant response team, the ability to restore, we call it-- So if Cribl calls it replay, we play data at our object store back into your SIEM. There's a very nice UI that gives you the ability to say, "I want data from this time period, at this time period, I want it to be all the data." Or the ability to filter and say, "I want this, just this IP." For example, if I detected, okay, this IP has been breached then I'm going to pull all the data that mentions this IP and this timeframe, hit a button and it just starts. And then it's going to restore how as fast your IOPS are for your solution. And then it's back in your tool, it's back in your tool. One of the things I also want to mention is we have an amazing enrichment capability. So one of the things that we would do is we would've pipelines so as the data comes out of the object store, it hits the pipeline, and then we enrich it. We hit use GoIP information, perverse and NAS. It gets processed through threat Intel feed. So the data's already enriched and ready for the incident response people to do their job. And so it just, it bamboozle the friction of getting to the point where I can start doing my job. >> You know, at this theme, this episode for this showcase is about Data as Code. And which is, you know, we've been, I've been saying this on theCUBES for since it was being around 13 years ago, that developers are going to be dealing with data like they deal with software code, and you're starting to see, you mentioned enrichment. Where do you see Data as Code going? How relevant in it now, because we really talking about when you add machine learning in here, that has to be enriched, and iterated on too. We're talking about taking things off a branch and putting it back into the core. This is a data discussion, this isn't software, but it sounds the same. >> Right, and this is something that the irony is that, I remember first time saying it to an auditor. I was constantly going with auditors, and that's what I described is I'm going to show you the code that manages the data. This is the data's code that's going to show you how we transform it, how we secure it, where the data goes, how it's enriched. So you can see the whole story, the data life cycle in one place. And that's how we handled our orders. And I think that is enormously, you know, positive because it's so easy to be confused. It's so easy to have complexity to get in the way of progress. And by being able to represent your Data as Code, it's a step forward 'cause the amount of data and the complexity of data, it's not getting simpler, it's getting more complex. So we need to come up with better ways to handle it. >> Now you've been on both sides of the fence. You've been in the trenches as customer, now you're a supplier with Great Solution. What are people doing with this data engineering roles? Because it's not enough data engineering. I mean, 'cause if you say Data as Code, if you believe that to be true and many people do, we do. And you looked at the history of infrastructure risk code that enabled DevOps, AIOps, MLOps, DataOps, it's happening, right? So data stack ops is coming. Obviously security is huge in this. How does that data engineering role evolve? Because it just seems more and more that there's going to be a big push towards an SRE version of data, right? >> I completely agree. I was working with a customer yesterday, and I spent a large part of our conversation talking about implementing development practices for administrators. It's a new role. It's a new way to think of things 'cause traditionally your Splunk or elastic administrators is talking about operating systems and memory and talking about how to use proprietary tools in the vendor, that's just not quite the same. And so we started talking about, you need to have, you need to start getting used to code reviews. Yeah, the idea of getting used to making sure everything has a comment, was one thing I told him was like, you know, if you have a function has to have a comment, just by default, just it has to. Yeah, the standards of how you write things, how you name things all really start to matter. And also you got to start adding, considering your skillset. And this is some mean probably one of the best hire I ever made was I hired a guy with a math degree, because I needed his help to understand how do machine learning works, how to pick the best type of algorithm. And I think this is going to evolve, that you're going to be just away from the gray bearded administrator to some other gray bearded administrator with a math degree. >> It's interesting, it's a step function. You have a data engineer who's got that kind of capabilities, like what the SRA did with infrastructure. The step function of enablement, the value creation from really good data engineering, puts the democratization playback on the table, and changes, >> Thank you very much John. >> And changes that entire landscape. How do you, what's your reaction to that? >> I completely agree 'cause so operational data. So operational security data is the most volatile data in the enterprise. It changes on a whim, you have developers who change things. They don't tell you what happens, vendor doesn't tell you what happened, and so that idea, that life cycle of managing data. So the same types of standards of disciplines that database administrators have done for years is going to have, it has to filter down into the operational areas, and you need tooling that's going to give you the ability to manage that data, manage it in flight in real time, in order to drive detections, in order to drive response. All those business value things we've been talking about. >> So I got to ask you the larger role that you see with observability lakes we were talking before we came on camera live here about how exciting this kind of concept is, and you were attracted to the company because of it. I love the observability lake concept because it puts all that data in one spot, you can manage it. But you got machine learning in AI around the corner that also can help. How has all this changed in the landscape of data security and things because it makes a lot of sense, and I can only see it getting better with machine learning. >> Yeah, definitely does. >> Totally, and so the core issue, and I don't want to say, so when you talk about observability, most people have assumptions around observability is only an operational or an application support process. It's also security process. The idea that you're looking for your unknown, unknowns. This is what keeps security administrators up at night is I'm being attacked by something I don't know about. How do you find those unknown? And that's where your machine learning comes in. And that's where that you have to understand there's so many different types of machine learning algorithms, where the guy that I hired, I mean, had started educating me about the umpteen number of algorithms and how it applies to different data and how you get different value, how you have to test your data constantly. There's no such thing as the magical black box of machine learning that gives you value. You have to implement, but just like the developer practices to keep testing and over and over again, data scientists, for example. >> The best friend of a machine learning algorithm is data, right? You got to keep feeding that data, and when the data sets are baked and secure and vetted, even better, all cool. Had great stuff, great insight. Congratulations Cribl, Great Solution. Love the architecture, love the pipelining of the observability data and streaming that in to a lake. Great stuff. Give a plug for the company where you guys are at, where people can get information. I know you guys got a bunch of live feeds on YouTube, Twitch, here in theCUBE. Where else can people find you? Give the plug. >> Oh, please, please join our slack community, go to cribl.io/community. We have an amazing community. This was another thing that drew me to the company is have a large group of people who are genuinely excited about data, about managing data. If you want to try Cribl out, we have some great tool. Try Cribl tools out. We have a cloud platform, one terabyte up free data. So go to cribl.io/cloud or cribl.cloud, sign up for, you know, just never times out. You're not 30 day, it's forever up to one terabyte. Try out our new products as well, Cribl Edge. And then finally come watch Nick Decker and I, every Thursday, 2:00 PM Eastern. We have live streams on Twitter, LinkedIn and YouTube live. And so just my Twitter handle is EBA 1367. Love to have, love to chat, love to have these conversations. And also, we are hiring. >> All right, good stuff. Great team, great concepts, right? Of course, we're theCUBE here. We got our video lake coming on soon. I think I love this idea of having these video. Hey, videos data too, right? I mean, we've got to keep coming to you. >> I love it, I love videos, it's awesome. It's a great way to communicate, it's a great way to have a conversation. That's the best thing about us, having conversations. I appreciate your time. >> Thank you so much, Ed, for representing Cribl here on the Data as Code. This is season two episode two of the ongoing series covering the hottest, most exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem. Talking about the future data, I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. >> Ed: All right, thank you. (slow upbeat music)

>> Live from Barcelona Spain it's theCUBE covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Live from Barcelona Spain it's theCUBE covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Hola Barcelona I'm Stu Miniman and my guest host for this week is the one and only Corey Quinn, and you're watching theCUBE the leader in live tech coverage, actually the fourth year we've been doing the KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. This is KubeCon CloudNativeCon Barcelona 2019. We've got two days of wall to wall live coverage. Last year we were in Copenhagen it was outside a little bit windy and we had this lovely silk above us. This time we are inside at the Fira. We've got some lovely Cube branding. The store with all the t-shirts and the little plushies of Fippy and all the animals are right down the row for us, and there is 7,700 people here. So I have been, I did the Austin show in 2017 did the Seattle show last year 2018. We had done the Portland show in 2016, so it's my third time doing one of these, but Corey it is your first time at one of these shows. Wait this isn't an AWF show, so what are you doing here? >> I'm still trying to figure that out myself when people invite me to go somewhere "Do you know anything about insert topic here?" absolutely, smile and bluff your way through. Eventually someone might call you on it, but that's tomorrow's problem not quite today's. >> Yeah I have this general rule of thumb the less I know about something the more I overdress to overcompensate it. Oh so here's the guy in the three piece suit. >> My primary skill is wearing a suit everything else is just edging details. >> Alright, so let's set the stage for our audience here Corey. As I've said we've got the Foundation, we've got a lot of the big members, we've got some of the project people, but I'm really excited we actually have some excellent users here, because it is five years now since Kubernetes came onto the scene of course built off of Borg from Google, and as Dan Conn said in the opening key note, he actually gave a nice historical lesson. The term he used is simultaneous invention and basically those things that, you know, there are times where we argue, who created the light bulb first, or who did this and this? Because there were multiple times out there and he said look there were more than a dozen projects out there. >> Many of them open source or a little bit open as to these things like container orchestration, but it is Kubernetes that is the defacto standard today, and it's why so many people show up for this show, >> and there's such a large ecosystem around it. So you live in the Cloud world you know what's your general view on CloudNative and Kubernetes and this whole kind of space? >> Well going back to something you said a minute or two ago. I think there's something very strong to be said about this being defined by it's users. I've never yet seen a successful paradigm takeoff in the world of technology that was vendor defined. It's at some point you wind up with these companies doing the digital equivalent of here we've crafted you this amazingly precise wrench, and you hand it to a user and the first thing they say is wow it's kind of a crappy hammer, but it's at least good for a first attempt. Tools are going to be used as users want to use them and they define what the patterns look like. >> Yeah so I'll give you the counter point there because we understand if we ask users what they wanted they wanted better buggy whips so we can go faster. To compare and contrast we had done a few years ago was this openstack was user driven and it came out of NASA, and if it was good enough for the rocket scientist, it should be something we that can learn on, and Rackspace had done good and gave it to the open source community, and stepped back and let people use it. First of all openstack it's not dead it's being used in the Telco world it's being used outside of North America quite a bit, but we saw the kind of boom and bust of that. >> We are a long way passed the heyday. >> The vendor ecosystem of openstack was oh it's an alternative to AWS, and maybe some way to get off the VMY licensing, and I've actually said it's funny if you listen to what happens in this ecosystem. Well, giving people the flexibility not to be totally locked in to AWS, and oh it's built on Linux and therefore I might not want to have licensing from certain vendors. Still echos from previously but it is very different. >> Very much so, and I will say the world has changed. >> I was very involved in Eucalyptus which was a bit of a different take on the idea, or the promise of what openstack was going to be What if you had Cloud API's in your own data center in 2012 that seemed like a viable concern. The world we live in today of public cloud first for a lot of shops was by no means assured. >> Yeah, Martin Meikos, Cube alum by the way, fantastic leader still heavily involved in open source. >> Very much so >> One of those things I think he was a little bit ahead of his time on these. So Corey, one of the reasons, why are you here? You are here because I pulled you here, and we do pay you to be here as a host. You're not here for goodwill and that. Your customers are all users and tend to be decent sized users and they say Corey helps people with their Amazon bills no that's the AWS bills not the I have a pile of boxes of smiley faces on there, oh my God what did I do around Christmas time. >> Exactly >> So the discussion at the show is this whole hybrid and multi cloud world when I talk to users they don't use those words. Cloud strategy, sure, my pile of applications, and how I'm updating some of them, and keeping some of them running, and working with that application portfolio and my data. All hugely important but what do you hear from users, and where does the things like cloud and multi cloud fit into their world? >> There are two basic archetypes of user that I tend to deal with. Because I deal with, as you mentioned, with predominately large customers >> you have the born in the cloud types who have more or less a single application. Picture a startup that hits meteoric growth and now is approaching or is in the IPO stage. They have a single application. They're generally all in on one provider, and the idea of going multi cloud is for auxiliary things. If we take a step back, for example, they're saying things like oh PagerDuty is a service that's not run by one of our major public cloud providers. There are a bunch of SaaS applications like that that factor in, but their infrastructure is >> predominately going to be based in one environment. The other large type of customer you'll tend to see is one of those multinational very divisional organizations where they have a long legacy of being very data center first because historically that was kind of the only option. And you'll start to see a bunch of different popup cloud providers inside those environments, but usually they stop at the line of business boundary or very occasionally on a per workload basis. I'm not seeing people say, >> well we're going to build this one application workload, and we want to be able to put that on Oracle cloud, and Azure and GCP and AWS, and this thing that my cousin runs out of the Ozarks. No one wants to do that in the traditional sense because as soon as you go down that path you are constrained to whatever the lowest common denominator across all those things are, and my cousins data center in the Ozarks doesn't have a lot of frills. So you wind up trying to be able to deploy anywhere, but by doing that you are giving up any higher level offering. You are slowing yourself down. >> Yeah, the thing we've always been worried about is back in the day when you talk about multi vendor do we go by the standard, and then go to least common denominator and what has worked it's way through the environment? That's what the customers want. I want today if I'm the user, agility is really one of the things that seem to be top of mind. What IT needs to do is respond to the speed of what the business needs and a CloudNative environment that I look at is it has to be that lever to be able to help me deliver on the next thing, or change the thing, or update my thing to get that working. It was, so disclaimer Red Hat is our headline sponsor here we thank them for our presence, but actually it's a great conversation with open shift customers, and they didn't talk about open shift to open shift to open shift. They talk about their digital transformation. They talk about their data. They talk about the cool new things that they are able to do, and it was that platform happened to be built on Kubernetes. That was the lever to help them do this at the Google show where you were at. That was the same conversation we had whether it is in GCP or whether it was in my own data center. >> You know yes we can do it with containers and everything like that. It was that lever to be able to help me modernize and run new apps and do it faster than I would've done it in the past. So it's that kind of progression that is interesting for me to hear, and just there is not, there is this tendency now to be like oh look everybody is working together and it's wonderful open source ecosystem. It's like well look the world today is definitely coopetition. Yes you need to be up on stage and if a customer says, I need to work with vendors A, B, C, and D. A, B, C, and D, you better work with that or they will go and find an alternative, because there are alternatives out there. >> (Corey) Absolutely, and when a company embarks on a digital transformation and starts moving into public cloud, there are two reasons they are doing that. The first is for cost savings in which case (laughs), let's talk, and the other is for capability storing, and you're not going to realize cost savings for a lot longer than you think you will. In any case you are not going realize capability story if all you view public cloud is being, is another place to run your VAMS or now your containers. >> Yeah, so thank you, Corey your title in your day job You're a Cloud economist. >> I am, two words that no one can define. So no one calls me on it. >> Kubernetes it's magical and free right >> That's what everyone tells me. It feels like right now we are sort of peak heighth as far as Kubernetes goes, and increasingly, whenever you see a technology that has gotten this level of adoption. We saw it with openstack, we've seen it with cloud, we've seen it with a bunch of things. We are starting to see it with Serverless as well. Where, what problem are you trying to solve? I'm not going to listen to the answer, today that answer is Kubernetes, and it seems like everyone's first project is their own resume. Great, there has to be a value proposition, there has to be a story for it, >> and I'm not suggesting that there isn't, but I think that it is being used as sort of an upscale snake oil in some cases or serpen grease as we like to call it in some context. >> Yeah, and that's one of our jobs here is to help extract the sigma from the noise. We've got some good customers. We're going into the environment. One of the things I try to do in the open keynote is find that theme. Couple of years, for a couple of shows >> it's been service mesh is the new hotness. We're talking about Istio, we're talking about Helm, We're talking about all these all these environments that say okay how do I pull together all the pieces of the application, >> and manage that together? Because there's just, you know, moving up the stack, and getting closer to that application. We'll talk about Serverless in one of the other segments later this week I'm sure because you know there's the, okay here Knative can help bridge that gap, but is that what I need? We talk a lot about Kubernetes is how much does the public cloud versus in my data center, and some of the guys they talk to, Serverless is in the public cloud. We'll call it functions of the service if you put it in your own data center, because while yes there are servers everywhere. If you actually manage those racks and everything like that it probably doesn't make sense to call it Serverless. We try not to get into too many semantics arguments here on theCUBE. >> You can generally tend to run arbitrary code anywhere the premise of Serverless to my mind. >> Is more about the event model, and you don't get that on VRAM in the same way that you do in a large public cloud provider, and whether that is the right thing or not, I'm not prepared to say, but it's important for that to be understood as you are going down that path. >> So Corey, any themes that jumped out for you, or things that you want to poke at, at the show, for me, Kubernetes has really kind of crossed that Chasm, and we do have large crowds. You can see the throngs of people behind us, and users that have great stories to tell, and CNCF itself, you know has a lot of projects out there, we're trying to make some sense of all those pieces. There's six now that have graduated, and FluentD is the most recent, but a lot of interesting things from the sandbox, through that kind of incubating phase there, and we're going to dig into some of the pieces there. Some of them build on top of Kubernetes, some of them are just part of this whole Cloud Native Ecosystem, and therefore related but don't necessarily need it, and can play in all these various worlds. >> What about you? >> For me I want to dig a little bit more into the idea of multi cloud. I have been making a bit of a stink for the past year. With the talk called the myth of multi cloud. Where it's not something I generally advise as a best practice, and I'm holding that fairly well, but what I want to do is I want to have conversations with people who are pursuing multi cloud strategies and figure out first, are they in fact pursuing the same thing, so we're defining out terms and talking on the same page, and secondly I want to get a little more context, and insight into why they are doing that, and what that looks like for them. Is it they want to be able to run different workloads in different places? Great that's fair, the same workload run everywhere, on the lowest common denominator. Well lets scratch below the surface a bit, and find out why that is. >> Yeah, and Corey you're spot on, and no surprise because you talk to users on this. From our research side on our team, we really say multi cloud or hybrid cloud. Hybrid cloud means you've got your own data centers, as opposed to multi cloud could be any of them. There's a little bit of a Venn Diagram you could do between that. >> But I am prepared to be wrong as well. I'm a company of two people. I don't have a research department, that's called the spare time I get >> when I can't sleep at night. So I don't have data, I have anecadata. I can talk about individual use cases, but then I'm telling individual company stories that I'm generally not authorized to tell. So it's more a question now of starting to speak to a broader base. >> So just to finish on the thought from out team is everything from I have all of these pieces, and they're really not connected, and I'm just trying to get my arms around through some of the solutions. Like in the AWS world we're looking at the VMware on AWS, and the outpost type of solution. That pullout or what Azure does with Azure stack, and the like, or even company like IBM and Oracle, where they have a stack that can be both >> in the public cloud and the private cloud. Those kind of fully integrated pieces versus the right now I'm just putting applications in certain areas, and then how do I manage data protection, how do I manage security across all these environments. It is a heterogeneous mess that we had, and I spent a lot of my career trying to help us break down those silos, get away from the cylinders of excellence as we called them, and we worked more traditionalist. So how much are we fighting that? I will just tell you that most of the people we're going to have on theCUBE, probably aren't going to want to get into that. They'll be happy to talk about their piece, and how they work with this broad wonderful ecosystem, but we can drill into where Kubernetes fits. We've got the five year anniversary of Kubernetes. We'll be talking to some of the people that helped create this technology, and lots of the various pieces. So with that, Corey, want to give you the final take here, before we talk about the stickers, and some of the rest. >> Oh absolutely, I think it's a fascinating show. I think that they're the right people who are attending. To give valuable perspective that, quite frankly, you're not going to get almost anywhere else. It's just a fascinating blend of people from large companies, small companies, giant vendors, and of course the middleware types, who are trying to effectively stand between in many cases, customers and the raw vendors, for a variety of very good reasons. Partner strategies are important. I'm very curious to see what that becomes, and how that tends to unfold in the next two days. >> Okay, so theCUBE by the way, we're not only a broadcast, but we are part of the community. We understand this network, and that is why Corey and I, you know, we come with stickers. So we've got these lovely sticker and partnership with Women Who Go, that made this logo for us for the Seattle show, and I have a few left, so if you come on by. Corey has his platypus, last week in AWS. So come on by where we are, you get some stickers, and of course, hit us up on Twitter if you have any questions. We're always looking for the community, and the network to help us with the data, and help us pull everything apart. So for Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman, two days of live wall to wall coverage >> will continue very soon, and thank you as always for watching theCUBE. (Fading Electronic Music)

(upbeat techo music) >> Covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018 brought to you by RedHat, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. (upbeat techno music) >> Okay welcome back everyone, we're live here in Seattle for KubeCon 2018, CloudNativeCon, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE coverage, three days. Our next guest is Chris Rosen who's the Program Director for Offering Management, for Kubernetes, IBM's Kubernetes Service. Chris, welcome to theCUBE thanks for joining us. >> Thank you very much, glad to be here. >> We always love covering IBM. Think is coming up this year. It's going to be in San Francisco. Want to get that out there because we're psyched it's in our backyard. It's always been in Vegas. We've been covering IBM's events for a long time. We've seen the evolution of Cloud, you know, Bluemix, SoftLayer all coming together. Kubernetes, actually the timing of Kubernetes couldn't have been better. >> Absolutely. >> With all the software investments in Bluemix, all the customers that you guys have, now with scale and choice with CNCF. Kind of a perfect storm for you guys, explain kind of what's going on, your role and how it's all kind of clicking together. >> Sure, so it is, you're exactly right it's an exciting time to be there. There's a lot of change. Everyone here at the conference, so excited there is so much new going on. About 2 1/2 years ago, IBM went all in on Kubernetes for our Cloud as well as for on-prem offerings to leverage and provide flexibility, portability, eliminating vendor lock-in, all those things that our customers asked us for and then adding capabilities on top of it. So, we are really excited to kind of grow and participate in the ecosystem. >> So, I hear a lot of people talk about Kubernetes. First of all, we love covering it, but the language around what is Kubernetes, they're even doing children's books, stories, trying to break it down. The rise of Kubernetes kind of has gone mainstream, but I hear things like the Kubernetes stack, the CNCF stack. I mean, it's not necessarily a stack per se. Could you break down, 'cause a lot of people are going to CNCF for a variety of other things. >> Right. >> With Kubernetes, at the core, describe how you talk to customers, how do you explain it. Unpack the positioning of Kubernetes at the core, and the CNCF offerings, or what do people call it? The stack, the CNCF stack? Or, how does this all break down? >> Yeah, so you're right. It's a very complex stack and that's where the complexity comes in that we're trying to eliminate for our customers is to simplify managing that stack. So, at the top of the stack, of course we've got Kubernetes for the orchestration layer. Below that, we've got the engine. We're using containerd now but we also have Prometheus, Fluentd, Calico, it's a very complex stack. And, when you think about managing that and a new version comes out from Kubernetes, how does that effect anything else in that stack? >> Chris, wonder if you can explain a little bit what IBM's doing here because some people I've heard, they've said, ah, there's like over 70 different you know, platforms with Kubernetes, oh they're all trying to sell me a Kubernetes distribution. >> Right. >> I don't believe that's the case. So, maybe you just explain what bakes into your products, what IBM bakes into the community. >> Right. >> And your role, yeah. >> Well, you're exactly right. So we're not forking and doing anything IBM-esk with Kubernetes. >> Right We have core maintainers that live out there. That's their job, is to focus upstream. We think that's very important to be agnostic and to participate in these communities. Now, what we do is, we build our solutions on top of these open source projects, adding value, simplifying the management of those solutions. So, you think about the CNCF conformance testing, IBM participates. We typically are the first public cloud to add support for a new version of Kubernetes. So we're really excited to do that, and the only way we can do that is by actively participating in the community. >> The upstream dynamic is important. Just talk about that for a second because this is, I think why one of the reasons it's been so successful is the upstream contribution is not your IBM perspective, it's just pure contribution for the benefit of the community then downstream, you guys are productizing that piece. >> Right. >> That is kind of, that is the purpose of open source. >> Exactly, exactly, and you hear time and time again at these conferences that the power of the community is so much greater than one individual company. So, let's work together as a community, build that solid foundation at the open source level and then IBM's going to add things that we think are differentiating and unique to our offering. >> What's the number one end-user conversation, problem that's being solved with the evolution of CNCF and Kubernetes at the core? Obviously, choice is one, but when specifically as you talk to customers, what is the big nead? What's the conversations like? Can you share some input into, insight into the customer equation? >> Probably the biggest request is around security, and that's a couple of fronts. One, maybe this is my first step into public cloud, so how do I ensure, in a multi-tenant world, that I am secure in isolation and all of those things. But then also, thinking about maybe I'm just starting with containers and microservices. So, this is a completely different mental paradigm in how I'm developing code, running code, and to explain to them how IBM is helping simplify that security aspect along that entire journey. >> So talk about the auto-scaling security piece, because, again, the touch points, it's interesting about Cloud, the entry point is multiple avenues for a customer could be workload, portability. It could be for a native application in the Cloud. Where's the scale come in? How do you guys see the scale picture developing? >> Right, so again, scaling comes kind of two factors. One, Pod Autoscaling from Kubernetes. So, you can define, let your application scale out when it needs to, but then there is also the Infrastructure side. So, I need to be able to set parameters to scale up when I need to and then scale back down to kind of meet my requirements as well as managing my cost. >> Well IBM Think's coming up on February 15th, just a plug for theCUBE. We'll be there, obviously register but IBM Think is a big conference. How much of Kubernetes will be at the center of IBM Think? >> Kubernetes will be a huge part at Think. We encourage everyone listening to come sign up and join us. There will be a range from hands-on for your Developer focus or your Operators. We'll have much larger business benefits for our C-level participants. So, a lot of activities, a lot of fun, a lot to learn at IBM Think 2019 in San Francisco. >> What's the biggest story here at KubeCon, CloudNative conference for the folks not here, or watching, or maybe are wait-listed in the lobby-con (Chris laughs) that's happening in Seattle? What's the biggest story? >> The biggest story is the vibrant ecosystem. When you look at the amount of people that are here, the chatter, the booths are packed, the sessions are packed, the keynotes are packed. It's great, everyone wants to share a story, learn from each other. It's a fantastic community to be a part of. >> I got to ask you the programmability piece, because, one of the things that people look for is virtual private networks, they're using VPNing, they want to take VPNs to the next level, SD-WAN, super-hot trend that's kicking back up, people want to program networks. >> Right. >> They don't want to have to actually provision networks anymore. this is DevOps but now it's also the network layer. Storage and compute looking good? >> Right. >> Network is evolving, how do you guys see that picture? Can you comment on that, it's a hot area. I just want to get your perspective. >> Yeah, definitely evolving just like the rest of the space. So, we are excited to work with various vendors here. IBM has our own point of view of what virtual private cloud means supporting, bring your own IP, private end-points, private cluster, so that way, if I only want connectivity inside my backbone network, I can configure my networks that way, creating a VPN tunnel back to my resources on-prem, and just have it completely isolated from the rest of the world. >> You see a lot of on-premises activity, Azure stack, Amazon announces this Outposts Cloud Sys supposed to be about a year away, and their whole message is latency. >> Right. >> Workloads need certain things, some of them need low-latency. >> Right. >> Some need more security. Just a, is that just a course of business now, that customers have to have these diverse sets of needs met? >> Absolutely, so IBM has two offerings, IBM Cloud Private for on-prem with multi-cloud manager that's really focused at managing in that hybrid or multi-cloud world. How do we simplify resources that are running on-prem, IBM Cloud, other Clouds, and how do we do so efficiently? So, we definitely see a lot of hybrid, hybrid architectures, whether that's on-prem to IBM Cloud, IBM Cloud to other Clouds, and latency really becomes a minimal factor. >> And what's your to do list on Kubernetes as you look at this event, obviously continuing to grow, the international piece is pretty compelling as well, growth in China, we're seeing that. What's your plans for IBM Kubernetes offering, what's the roadmap look like, what can you share some insight into what's next for you guys? >> Absolutely, so we're definitely focused on security, continues to be paramount, even though we think we are a very secure offering already, but continuing to expand on that. The private endpoints that I mentioned, the private connectivity, isolating network traffic is a huge piece of it, staying compliant and up to date with Kubernetes versions as they come out, making sure that they're scalable, performant, upgradeable, and then making those available to our users. >> IBM continuing to transform obviously the big news we saw with the RedHat acquisition, you know, obviously you've been in the Cloud for a while, everyone knows that with Bluemix, maybe not get to know as much work that went into Bluemix for instance, a lot of great stuff. You guys have built, you know, the Developer side within Cloud. IBM Think is February 15th, it's going to be in San Francisco. theCUBE will be there. Check these guys out. They're going to have a lot of workshops we're excited to see how the evolution of IBM and IBM Cloud continues. Chris coming on theCUBE, appreciate it. >> Thank you very much. >> theCUBE coverage, I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, stay with us for more coverage, here in Seattle, after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen Denmark, it's theCUBE covering Kubecon and CloudnativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, live here at Copenhagen, Denmark, Cube's coverage of Kubecon 2018 in Europe, this is all about the Kubernetes the future of cloud native, CloudNativeCon part of the CNCF Cloud Native Foundation, I'm John Furrier and my co-host Lauren Cooney, founder of Spark Labs industry expert of open source. So, we have two end user customers of Kubernetes and Cloud Native, Zach Arnold, software engineer Ygenre energy fund, and Austin Adams software development manager, same company. You guys are doing really interesting business model around energy and equity in buildings and homes, but you're writing code, so you have to make all this stuff work, so I'm sure you're cloud native, why have a data center when you can have the cloud >> Austin : We were born in the cloud. >> You were born in the cloud. So take us through, explain the business real quick, and then what's your back end, technical scaling situation look like in terms of infrastructure, software and what's the make up of the systems. >> Zach: You know the business best. >> Yeah, so Ygrene operates under something called PACE, property assess clean energy. We operate in a couple of different states. We work with local governments to create a PACE program that is accepted in different counties or jurisdictions within the state, and then we allow homeowners and contracting companies to provide financing for home improvements that are specifically within the domain of renewable energy or energy efficiency. >> So, you basically finance a solar panel that I put on my house or building if there's benefits there, and then you guys get the financing and you tie in with the government so the property taxes, the leverage the security is the building right, or the asset. >> Yeah, and the way that we're chartered is basically we can put a tax on the property which gives us some guarantees on repayment and things like that, and it's a great model so far. >> It's a new financial engineering around energy efficiancy so you've got to build systems, so you're working with government, so now we all know how government systems work, so you've got to be agile and nimble. Take us through how the back end works, what's it look like, what's the system look like, you're hosted in the cloud, is it Amazon, Google? >> So everything that we have is in a cloud provider that starts with an A, and ends with an S, it's AWS I don't know if I can say that, I think I can say that, AWS all the way-- >> Yes, it's good. >> And we have tons of services, we have Kubernetes running most of our main services. Within our migration we actually started with our main service. A lot of people start with, you know, their smallest microservice, we just went whole-hog and just went in for it, so they system is mainly a lone-management system. Underwriting data aggregation and underwriting processing, so every application that comes in we have to underwrite it and make sure every little thing checks out, and our underwriting system has won awards for how accurate it is and how high quality it is as well. >> So, I'm doing a mental white board in my mind, just kind of graphing this so just help me out here and take us through this. So, you guys are a cutting edge company, new progressive business model, real innovative, great stuff. Cloud native, so you're born in the cloud no data center, cool, check, it's what everyone does, and now you're like okay, now I've got to deal with these legacy systems. So, you're putting containers around things, so you have to interface, you build your own system so that's cool, but you're dealing with other systems and then how are you handling that, you are just containerizing it, so take us through some of those linkages. >> Yeah, so where we're creating, a lot of times when we have to integrate with another system, we'll create a small service that is code that we own, and we'll reach out to those integrations, those vendors and we'll do aggregation within our system and provide an interface back to our systems. You know, like everyone, we're breaking up the monolith or whatever, maybe in 10 years we'll go back to a monolith, who knows but you know we're slicing out things, making microservices, it looks like a mess on the back end, just tons of microservices going everywhere and that's why we're using all these Cloud Native tools to be able to manage that. So, in order to move quickly, we're wanting to containerize everything, everything runs in a container at this point. >> Lauren: Great. >> A lot of our services follow this kind of we're kind of calling the container adaptor pattern, it follows the software adaptor pattern where, just like Austin was saying, let's say for example we're interfacing with a credit vendor, we create a service where we talk to our own service that has a well defined interface that we know will always get a credit report back with the following fields, but then where that information actually comes from, whether it's one of the big three credit vendors or someone else who has a well defined API, that's largely not the concern of the main loan management system, it's the concern of the microservice that's responsible for reaching out to that other entity there. So, that's how we've kind of gotten to beat around the legacy interfacing of all these other different financial services and tools that help to aggregate data.. >> It's super clever you can optimize on a service basis but now you have to orchestrate and kind of conduct everything through-- >> And keep everything secure. >> That's really interesting, I mean I think what I'm looking at here is a huge ecosystem of partners and companies and end users coming together and one of the questions, beyond why you are here, what are you looking at here, what is interesting to you, what do you want to learn about that you might bring into your, you know, architecture essentially? >> Austin and I were talking about this, we kind of tend to look at the CNCF list of projects as a dinner menu. (laughs) >> We're refreshing that page frequently, because we're adding projects at an alarming rate, but one project we're using FluentD, Notary, Kubernetes, of course, Prometheus, things like that, we want to start using those things more extensively. One's that we're really excited about are Spire and Spiffy, the identity, kind of a new take, not necessarily new but new for cloud native take on identity of services and authentication, as well as the open policy agent to provide a single DSL to do all of your policy and authorization-- >> Lauren: That's a lot of work, load and management and identity correct? >> Yeah, yes. >> Authorization and authentication are two of the most important things that happen in our system and we have so many different ways that it happens right now, it can tend to look a little clogy, just from the sense of the fact that we need a little more coordination or standardization around it, I mean we have well written policies that are documented but the way that those actually get enforced are, it's individualized based on the service, you know, if it's a cloud based policy, then it's AWS IAM, if it's Kubernetes based policy it's RBAC using Kubernetes RBAC, so it kind of looks like if we can abstact a lot of that functionality out of the services, the containers, the orchestration tool or the cloud, to making those decisions, that would really, really simplify things for us. >> So, you guys are end users, so are you part of like an end user group that gives feedback directly into the community or how does that work, and do you contribute to that? >> Yes, so we're on the fringes of the contributor community as well, and we're definitely on GitHub on all these projects posting issues and in some cases providing our own PR's or whatever. None of us are within the Kubernetes orb but that's definitely something we all are achieving or aspiring to be is jumping into some of these projects, especially some of the smaller projects that we're using on a daily basis on our build servers like, Portheurs or Notary, some of those things we're actively contributing to those. >> So, you've traded on mastery of product but being active on the project is the key, the balance there. >> Yeah, I mean typically what you find in the fiance industry is when they go for a solution, they lead with their wallet as for what we can purchase, or what we can sponsor, but Ygrene has been, our managers and management have been incredibly empowering this way, they say well what can we give, we lead with our hands. >> Yeah, and this is interesting, if you have a good business model innovation, which you guys have, you can be a completely clean sheet of paper to build it. >> Right >> So, that's the best thing about the cloud. You can really move fast and go from, you know, point A to point B, move the needle. >> Yeah, with it at the same time there's kind of a clean slate, there's even a clean slate in terms of best practices within our industry. Now if we were in mortgage, there's a lot of rules, there's a lot of clear guidelines on how to do security and auditing and things that you need, where in our industry that's all emerging, so we have a chance to also set the pace, set the tone for what security might look like, or what cloud usage might look like within the PACE industry. But at the same time, we're getting increasing government regulations, so we're having to make these decisions around, what are the tools that are going help us achieve maximum customer protection and audit-ability while maintaining our business model without totally-- >> And you're going to need flexibility because you don't know what's going to come next you've got to be ready for anything, and that is what leads to my next question, two points, how do you guys prepare for what's next, what's the main ethos around, technical architecture around being prepared for that, ready state that's coming to you, and then two, what have you learned over the, what's the scar tissue look like, what's the moments of joy and despair going on because you're reiterating, your learning, you're always constantly getting knocked down, standing back up. so this is what innovation is, it can be fun and also grueling at the same time. >> Yeah, so how we deal with what's new beyond our like software process, we have a well-defined process that everything gets churned into. Government is really good about giving us notice about when stuff's going into effect, so we always have target dates that we're going toward. But, in terms of what's next in terms of our software, we have this interesting culture within our organization, everyone wants to improve everything, I think it's called a Kaizen culture, just people are looking at stuff they want to improve it, and so our process allows for anyone to throw something on the backlog. It will get prioritized and put around, but we're allowing all of our engineers to say, hey we want to do this, and you know, putting it into an open forum where, you know, we might not do it but we have the discussion, and we have all the channels to have those discussions and, like most technology companies or technology focused companies, we spend a lot of time talking about technologies, and making those decisions. >> You guys really have the cultural ethos but the people to bate and then commit. >> And that's one of my, you know, recommendations for any company trying to move to cloud native or Kubernetes is, always, you have to have your evangelists, on your team, because you can't expect people who have been doing it one way forever to instantly be onboard. You need some sort of technical evangelist whether that's outside company, it works best, I think, if it's someone you've hired, or someone in your organization who's preaching the gospel of Kubernetes or cloud native. >> Spark Labs, Lauren's company's doing a lot of that work, but that really nails it, I mean, you got to just, it's not a technical issue, per se-- >> Exactly. >> We're hearing that all through the show here. What's on your wish list, what is the holiday's want to bring for you? If you could throw your wish list out there, and you can, a magic wand, crystal ball >> EKS, if Amazon would respond to our request. >> Okay, we just had AG on yesterday, he said it's coming >> It's coming. >> He said, months, >> Did he say months, I thought it was a few months, So maybe >> We'll check the transcripts. >> Alright >> Yeah, it wasn't tomorrow. >> That's alright. >> And that's one of our, that's our scar tissue right? We're doing this ourself, you know, there's this huge control board and we got people, you know, doing the knobs and things and we're relatively small, you know, we're a small engineering organization so we're doing a lot of this ourselves where we can abstract a lot of that work out to a cloud provider that we are already on. >> Well it's going to be good reps for you guys as this thing gets abstracted away, you're going to have a great core competencies in Kubernetes, I think that is a notable thing there. >> Austin: For sure. >> One of the things on my wish list, I was speaking to Jace and Josh Burkus and a lot of the core contributors in Kubernetes at the Contributors Summit, I kind of realized that I would love to see a coordinated cross cutting after, either on part of the CNCF or on part of The Kubernetes Project proper, to have a proactive security, I wouldn't call it a working group, I guess a SIG, a Special Interest Group. It would be, I know that we can deal with zero day issues really, really quickly. For example, the Azure host path mapping issue that was a few months ago, but right now it's kind of on the responsibility of each SIG to implement whatever security looks like to them individually, which is great, it means there are people thinking about security, that makes me sleep better at night. But, seeing some coordination around that and kind of driving towards, okay we have this tool that seems to be changing the game, how are we going to change the game with security? Like is there a way to look at that and even, 'cause authentication and authorization have been around since more than one user used a terminal in the 1960's and 70's. But, even with this new step of admission controllers, where we have more fine grain control around how stuff gets into the cluster. I think it would be great to look at what a coordinated cloud native security effort would look like. >> I think that's great, I mean we've been talking to a lot of vendors here and a lot of folks that have projects, and we bring security every single time and they kind of have an answer, but they really don't. >> They body swerve you, we've got this we've got that. >> Or you're the developer and you have to build it in yourself, so I totally agree with that recommendation I think it's fabulous. >> Yeah, Kubernetes is making so many things simpler at certain levels. Now, if we can focus those efforts at making security simple for people, because they're security experts, they can put their two cents in >> Lauren: Let's build it in and not block it on. >> Build it in and not expect every developer to know. >> Zach: Don't bolt it on, build it in. >> Build it from the beginning, there are all kinds of new ways. The fact there is no perimeter with the cloud brings up, really kind of throws everyone for a loop because you have to go to the chipset down, I mean what Google got, I think is a very interesting approach, they're trying to push forward this multilayer approach from chip to kernel to OS to app, interesting. They've got, managing through all their security, they've got android, I mean spear phishing is a huge problem right now, we're seeing and a lot of enterprises we talk to are like, well, it's like the firewalls and VPN's like that's old school, they need to modernize that so this is going to get them thinking about that. So great, hey guys, thank you for coming on and sharing your feedback-- >> Thank you. >> And your data and your place and how you are architected on AWS and your work with Kubernetes. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Cube coverage here in Copenhagen. It's theCUBE's coverage at Kubecon 2018. We'll be back with more after this short break.

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2017, brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage live here in Austin, Texas for the CNCF's two conferences, CloudNativeCon, which was yesterday, and two days, today and tomorrow, KubeCon for Kubernetes' conference. This is theCUBE, of course, from SiliconANGLE Media. I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Stu Miniman. Our next guest, Dan Kohn, is the executive director of the CNCF, the man who put it all together. Congratulations. Welcome back to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Oh, absolutely. Thrilled to have you guys back here again. >> So you kind of doing a victory lap here now, high fiving each other? >> Dan: Great hugs. >> John: Great event. >> Laughing: I'm glad it's a good event, and I am hearing fantastic feedback that folks are thrilled to be here. But we sort of describe this moment for the organization and the community as being the end of the beginning. >> John: Yeah. >> Where we now have all the major cloud vendors, all of the biggest enterprise software companies. We have a core group of 14 projects anchored by Kubernetes, but tons and tons of work in front of us. >> And tons of success, so I'm just going to read a couple of highlights from yesterday. There's a lot today. Baidu joins the CNCF, a lot of scaling production application examples, 31 new silver end-user members joined, Alibaba Cloud update to platinum, CoreDNS 1.0, Containerd, Fluentd, Jaeger, tons of news. Obviously, we've been pumping out the coverage. Today, again, more and more great goodness. But really interesting is that you guys have put a frame around this community to allow it to grow, to fertilize the open source vibe, which is all cloud but yet scaled. And you put up a slide I want to get your reaction to that I thought was compelling yesterday during your keynote. It was the flywheel, circle, and it said projects, products, profit. >> Dan: Right. >> And not that you're promoting profit, but you're not hiding the ball, either, saying, hey, you know what? There's a lot of commercial interest in cloud, obviously. We saw AWS' success last week. And that is if you create good products in this community framework, there's profit to be had. >> Right. So first of all, I should admit to plagiarizing that slide from Linux Foundation Executive Director Jim Zemlin. >> And similarly, I think you can look at a lot of aspects... >> It's an open source feature. >> Dan: Yes. >> Free for you to use. >> John: Right. >> Similarly, I think there's a lot of ways in which Kubernetes is trying to build on the success of Linux. And Jim even describes Kubernetes as the Linux of the cloud. >> John: Yeah. >> Stu: Yeah. >> John: That's a good point. >> Dan, one of the things we've been talking around Kubernetes is you talk about scale. >> Dan: Right. >> Talk about scale of the CNCF. You have 4 to 14 projects. People are a little worried when you get all the vendors around here and there's all these projects. It's a foundation thing, it's going to go off the rails. >> Dan: Yeah. >> Customers aren't going to have a voice. How do we make sure we kind of learn from some of the things that other projects have had challenges with in the past? >> And I think that's our advantage, which is the great thing about coming later than some of the other foundations, is we can look at where they had successes and where they had issues. And our aspiration for CNCF is to get to go make entirely new mistakes rather than replicating some of the issues that have come before. And so really from the beginning of CNCF, we had a somewhat unusual and frankly a little bit cumbersome charter where I describe it at times as a three-ring circus. We have a governing board made up of the vendors that are putting a lot of money into the community, but they don't get to run the projects and they don't even get to pick the projects. Instead, they appoint six of the nine members of an independent technical oversight committee, kind of like the Supreme Court. And then we have a third group in the end-user community that I'm thrilled to say is now up to 28 members in it. They appoint one of those folks. We finally got that working. We have Sam Lambert, the director of infrastructure at GitHub, who has just made a huge commitment to Kubernetes and is moving all their infrastructure over into it. Those seven appoint the last two. And so that body, and they just had their public meeting a couple hours ago. They feel very strongly about their independence, about their reputation, that they're trying to make very good judgments based on what they're seeing in the marketplace. >> That's interesting, the three-ring circle. I like how you put it. But let's talk about the end-user piece because I think that's critical. One of the things we were commenting earlier from the Lyft folks was you have a lot of end users who have built some large-scale systems out of their own sheer necessity. >> Dan: Definitely. >> And that is now being donated in. We saw Kubernetes come in with, you shepherded beautifully, went from Google, but you've got Lyft donating an amazing product convoy. >> This first convoy has a huge amount of excitement. And what was fun was, actually, on the same stage that they contributed back in LA in September, Uber contributed a separate project. Now, unlike Uber and Lyft, the two projects are in no way competitive- >> John: Yeah. >> Like Jaeger is really fantastic tracing one. But what they have in common is that they're companies that have had to grow from nothing to extremely high scale and then had problems that they solved. And they wanted to share that expertise with us. >> I want to get your thoughts on this. Because we've been speculating, on theCUBE, we've been kind of thinking, an editorial, but just that this is all good business. Now, that's pretty obvious, right? You're starting to see this kind of contribution, the gifts that keep on giving. These are significant code. >> Dan: Yeah. >> Not like, okay, let's start a little group and huddle and build something organically. You have real goodness coming in from Google, Uber, Lyft, and there's a million others. >> Dan: Right. >> How is that changing the game? Certainly accelerating it. That's really bringing goods to the table. >> Right. I think the whole... >> You have to manage it. >> Well, and for what it's worth, I don't actually manage the projects. And so we do provide a set of services- >> John: The community? >> -to them and we help them, we market them. But one of the unusual aspects of CNCF is that the projects do actually manage themselves. A little bit of guidance from the TOC, but we really are unusual in that sense. And that's one of the reasons the projects have been... >> And what's interesting is, to connect the dots, though, one step further, you're talking about a commercial entity donating massive intellectual property in the open for all the goodness of everyone else. But yet that flywheel is continuing. They're still using it. So it is inherently commercial dynamic. >> Right. And back to that circle, I think really the underlying concept is that companies agree that sharing key parts of their infrastructure has a huge amount of value to the whole ecosystem, to each other. And then they're absolutely eager to compete above that. And so you can look at it with the public clouds where we have now Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Alibaba, IBM, Oracle all at the table. They are absolutely fierce competitors. But they're saying that this specific software infrastructure layer isn't the area that they want to compete. They want to compete on all the value-added services, customer service, et cetera. >> Dan, I wonder if you can speak to how CNCF connects to some of the broader communities out there. Things like Kata containers got announced coming out of the OpenStack group. You've got a serverless track happening here, kind of extends some of where Kubernetes is going. How does CNCF fit into the broader... >> Sure. And it's definitely the case that all the innovation out there cannot happen in CNCF. Most obviously, everything that we do, almost everything depends on Linux. And so that's our parent organization, the Linux Foundation. But we've had a good collaboration with Jonathan Bryce from OverStack. They have two booths on the floor here at the show. And we've spoken to Clear Containers and RunV, the two predecessors in the past. But the part that I'm particularly pleased with for Kata containers is that it is an OCI-compliant runtime, that's another sister organization, and is really designed to work well for Kubernetes. And then they can pitch that and let the market go decide which container runtimes they find the most valuable. >> Obviously a lot of traction here in terms of the sentiment around service meshes and pluggable lock-in textures. That's been very cool. But security came up. So I want to get your thoughts around security, obviously storage and these older models around how to deal with storage and networking. Obviously, always in the action. >> Yeah. >> But security is top of mind for everyone. How is that being addressed? You know, talk is out there... >> Sure. I mean our philosophy on this is that moving to cloud-native and particularly the continuous integration and continuous development that goes along with that is the most important step that you can do to help secure your infrastructure. And Equifax is the example everyone always brings up. But there was a case where they were using known insecure software and they didn't have the processes up to place where instead of doing quarterly updates or monthly updates, you want to be doing dozens of updates per day. And a cloud-native infrastructure allows you to do that. >> What's next for you? Because you've got great traction with both community response, and the community has been absolutely amazing, the quality of people, level has been great, but also at the funding sponsors. You've got a lot of people that are involved. What's next? What happens next? What do you envision happening? What's the plan, and then how do you view that evolving? >> Well, I hate to fall into the buzzword implosion here, but if you go back to the crossing the chasm metaphor, I think we're still very much just in the early adopter phase. 2018 could very well be the moment that we jump over to the early majority. And I do feel like this whole community now has the velocity to do that and that we're on track for it. But as that happens, there's just far, far more people who need to be educated so they understand the projects and the options and how to work with them. And then hopefully they go from just being consumers of these technologies to contributors and that we can welcome them into our community and hopefully get the advantage of their expertise as well. >> I want to get your thoughts on a comment that Stu and I were talking about. Stu, you and I were talking about the notion of value creation above the stack, and then how Kubernetes, although some could say being commoditized, but it's also creating value because with that consistency of Kubernetes, you can now create value. So we believe, and I want to get your reaction to this, because we think a whole new ecosystem dynamic will emerge of a new kind of ecosystem. And if this new app developer combined with software engineering, which is really going on, you're talking about the cloud, the app developers will just build in value, that value creation will be rewarded. That's where monetization will be happening. >> And if I could build off that... >> John: Yeah. >> Dan, I loved one of your opening comments. You quoted, "exciting times for boring infrastructure, "maybe too exciting." So this week we've been teasing out there's a lot of work to make that infrastructure boring. You've got everybody on this floor, the CNCF board, lots of new projects making that. Where the action is and what this is going to create is that application monetization and the speed and agility of being able to create these cool new cloud-native applications out there. So it's interesting dynamic, spans broad pieces of this, layers of the stack there. >> Yeah. Well, I will point out that there was an odd level of unanimity of just a ton of different leaders in the community, in keynotes from Craig McLuckie and Chen Goldberg and others where they all agree that Kubernetes is not by any means the ultimate answer or the final answer. I think everybody now expects to see Kubernetes as a core aspect of the infrastructure for software for the next decade or more. But there's a belief that there's a whole ton of value that needs to be added above it, particularly to try and show for a regular application developer who just has a PHP app or no-GS microservices or anything else what's the easiest way to go from having a piece of software and deploying it effectively. >> Dan, so it's interesting. You watch the people on the outside. They're like, oh, look at Kubernetes. They're all holding hands and saying Kumbaya. We know there's some spirited debates that happen- >> Dan: Definitely. >> In the code, some projects that are sometimes competing up there. Why has the community come together, and where are some of the areas that we still need to work on and improve to help customers going forward? >> And again, I think they have the big advantage of having watched other communities that didn't value community and consensus and the ability to work through their issues. And so thankfully, we just have a ton of really capable engineers who also have some of those social or personal qualities that they care about working these things out. And to date, at least, I think most of those disagreements have been settled pretty amicably and in a positive direction. I think there's still huge swathes of this space that are still up in the air. Storage is an obvious one where there's a ton of work going on in a storage working group of CNCF. Serverless is another where I think everyone agrees that the application deployment model of AWS Lambda is really exciting and has things that people should replicate and should be brought over to Kubernetes. But how that should happen, what the software is, et cetera, there's still, in fact, we have our first serverless track today here at KubeCon where several different competing approaches are all talking about what they'd like to do. >> Awesome stuff. And you also announced some dates for next year, December 11 and 13 in Seattle. >> Dan: Yes. >> Okay. >> Dan: That's a year from now. >> November 14 and 15 in Shanghai. >> Now, you and I met in Hangzhou in the lobby, which was just amazing. But I certainly am hoping to convince you to go back to China with us. This will be our first event... >> I got a three-year visa. >> Good, yeah, that's the exactly right one. But this will be our first event in China, which I think is just a huge opportunity. We now have Baidu, Tencent, Huawai, ZTE, a number of startups. There's just so much excitement for this space over there that we're really excited to satisfy. >> Stu: And Copenhagen in May. >> And that's the last one. Thank you. May 2 to 4 in Copenhagen, and we're really excited for the event, to bring it to Europe and the rest of the world. >> Okay. So you've been working like a dog, you've been working hard. I've seen you in China. It's serendipitous. But it's not without being mentioned that this has been great effort by your team and the Linux Foundation and Jim and the whole team. But congratulations. Are you having a pinch me moment? I know it's too early to do a victory lap. >> But you've got to be pretty excited. >> Yeah. It really has been a great thing for the foundation that we sort of accomplished many of our 2018 and 2019 goals this year. But I'm sure we're going to find plenty of stuff to do next year. >> And your goal for the next 6 to 12 months, what's on your top three to-do's, continue the momentum? Share your API for... >> Yeah. What's great is that we really have plenty of members. We'd always like to add new ones and serve the ones we have better. But right now, the focus is really about providing better services to our projects. All of them feel overworked. They would love help on documentation, on marketing, on messaging about it, and some of them need help with testing development and other things. So that's really what we're buckling down on. >> Great community are going to test them, being here on the ground, personally present at creation. And I was standing there with J.J. and Lew Tucker, OpenStack three years ago, talking about Kubernetes. We were kind of ripping. We couldn't have imagined, then, obviously, they bolted it on last year with your event. Now second year here, huge community... >> But you have 4,100 folks here, is more than the previous four events combined. >> Yeah, awesome. >> So it really is exciting. >> TheCUBE, always on the ground. And sometimes the squirrel finds a nut. We found a cloud-native foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. CNCF, Cloud-Native Compute Foundation, really a new, growing, and relevant community for cloud and a new way to do software and reimagine the future from software engineering to full application development, a new way. This is theCUBE's coverage, and we are here live in Austin. More live coverage after this short break. We'll be right back. [Techno Music]

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from the Seattle, Washington, it's the Cube on the ground, covering KubeCon 2016. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. Here's your host, John furrier. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Cube special on the ground coverage of KubeCon or CloudNativeCon, this is an event. Seattle booming with attendance, great growth from last year, and we are here in Seattle covering it all. And my next guest is Dan Kohn, who's the executive director of the CNCF, which stands for the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. It's a mouthful, but it's super important part of the Linux foundation. Welcome. >> Thanks so much, really glad to be here. >> Yeah, so big fan of what's happening here. One, the event's awesome. Great uptake from last attendance from last year. >> Yeah, unfortunately, maybe a little too much. We're a little crowded in the foyer and a little bumping on the way into getting in the restroom and everything, but it's one of the challenges of fast growing technology space is trying to figure out a year ahead of time, what size space to get? >> And how many people to squeeze in without getting the fire marshal on your back. >> Exactly. >> Certainly this is going to be a great one because the hallway conversation has been spectacular, and normally the excitement's pretty strong at tech events like this because they're developers, so there's a lot of collaboration going on. But you have a kind of an air of really forward-thinking entrepreneurial kind of thinking going on here. And I haven't seen that in a while and I think that's one of the main things that we're seeing that came out of the containers, Kubernetes. I would say the unveiling and the clarity of at least a path. >> Yes, absolutely. >> And the importance of that. So that's been super important to (indistinct) community. Now making that a part of a foundation, an open source, has challenges. So that's what you're doing. So give us the plan, what's the strategy? >> Sure, so I'm actually relatively new to the space. I just became an executive director five months ago, and this is somewhat of a coming out party. This is the first big event that we've run as the first CloudNativeCon. And it's really just been extraordinary. I'm thrilled to see the range where we're getting some of the biggest companies in the world of the Cisco's, and Wallway's, and IBM's, Red Hat's and such. And then tons of startups, and a lot of real diversity in the end-users as well. Of startups looking at Kubernetes, massive companies, just saw a great presentation from Ticketmaster, about them having 50 year old technology that they're moving forward and putting into containers. >> So in the growth of the market, one of the challenges is to kind of, you know, not so much be a chess player, but be a gardener if you will, kind of like let the flowers bloom, if you will. And that's a challenge cause opensource is very opinionated, but there's also a lot of passion involved. So how do you look at, what's your philosophy on establishing kind of a rules of engagement? How do you foster the innovation? Certainly the market drivers are for more growth, but people have inhibitors on the enterprise that we hear about, support and these things of that nature. So how do you enable that? What's your strategy and what's your view? >> Sure, so CNCF is a very new organization. And my goal on it is to look at a lot of the giants that have come before us of like the Internet Engineering Task Force and the Apache Software Foundation and OpenStack. And my goal is to try and learn from them and ideally to try and make entirely new and different mistakes as opposed to the ones that they may have made in the past. So one of the things that's a little unusual in our setup is that we very much separate all of the technology decisions from the business decisions. We have a governing board of a bunch of the biggest technology companies in the world, the ones I mentioned, plus Google and Samsung just joined, which we're very excited about, a number of others. But they can't actually adopt projects in. So we have a separate group called the technical oversight committee, which is some of the top architects in the cloud space. So we have folks like Ben Hindman of Mesosphere, and Solomon Hykes of Docker, Brian Gantt of Google, and six others, and that's the group that looks at new projects and evaluates them and talks to them and decides whether to adopt them into CNCF or not. And we feel that that separation is really critical so that the technology decisions are not being biased by the business one. >> Yeah, it's always hard to foster growth in the innovation around business models, conflicting with the technology enablement, that's really key. Great to see that decoupling. So on the business model side, thoughts on things that you've learned and observed, learnings that you've had in your past career and applying that now, I mean, the Bait, the rage is on, Open Core to Apache, GPL, you saw some things going on there. So there's like all kinds of different approaches. Are there any thoughts of the winds blowing any which way or the other? >> Sure, I was previously the chief operating officer at the Linux Foundation between '06 and '10, and I definitely think you can, CNCF as part of the Linux Foundation, we took that model of saying, "the technology decisions "need to be separate from business ones." One thing that's interesting to me is that when I was last in this space 10 years ago, people were perfectly fine. Linux Journals, GPL, people were fine with free licenses like MIT and BSD. Since then, and for this group, there is an enormous focus on the Apache license. And the reason why, is the fear of submarine patents. And so the whole goal of CNCF is for us to be an intellectual property no fly zone. That you can have all of these companies that compete very hard in the marketplace, but they can come together and collaborate and share their ideas and their technology without the belief that a couple years later, someone's going to be able to trick someone else in with a lawsuit, and win that. And the Apache license is really the industry consensus right now for best practices. >> It's interesting cause that no fly zone gives the freedom for the creation and the invention side of it. The patent thing is always worrisome, but in general, there's also the business model down the road kind of approach. Which is, "let's go innovate." Apache has done great on packaging. Have someone get some traction. It fosters the community aspect as well as a startup. Maybe not thinking about packaging. >> No, we have an advantage that we're not, unlike OpenStack as an example, we're not trying to come up with the projects ourself. What we're actually doing is scouring the Cloud Native landscape, talking to different groups and saying, "Oh, what do we think is "the best in class project out there?" And in some cases it's more than one, but today we just announced the fourth project that's added to the CNCF. So we have Kubernetes, we have Prometheus, which is a monitoring application. OpenTracing is a tracing, and then today we just added Fluentd, which is a logging solution. And this is the idea that if you have dozens or hundreds of different applications and projects that are each producing a log stream, and then you have a perhaps dozens of other applications that are consuming it, you don't want to have an M times N problem of creating adapters for all of them. Instead, you can plug them all into Fluentd, it has over 300 adapters for different solutions out there. And that provides one comprehensive approach. But what's interesting is that we don't need to win over the community and say, "Oh, here's this project you may not have heard of." There's actually over 2000 users of that today. But by having them here at CNCF, showing how it plugs into other technologies of ours, we think we can hope-- >> You're cross-pollinating? >> Dan: Exactly. >> You're letting it bubble up and you're not being a-- >> Dan: That's exactly the metaphor. >> (laughs) A dictator. Okay, and back to the project side, this is awesome. So you have some gravity around these projects. Is there any cadence or expectation, or is it free for all in terms of the velocity of adoption of projects that the technical committee will oversight? >> We would love to be at the pace of one a month. And I don't know that we'll quite get that fast. One big change that we're hoping to make in the next month or two. When our first two projects were Kubernetes and Prometheus, those are two of the fastest growing best respected projects on GitHub right now. We didn't want to have such a high milestone for every other project we considered. So we're adopting what we think we're going to call an inception stage of earlier projects that we're going to sort of try out, but they have to essentially prove themselves within 12 months. And hopefully that'll allow us to keep a pretty good velocity where we think there's a fantastic number of projects, we think as a community, we can-- >> Yeah, let people fight it out, surface stuff and let people kick the tires, right? That's the incubation period basically. What about the forking and all the battle cage matches that go on, how do you want to handle that or you just let nature take its course? Is that philosophy there? >> Thankfully, when we look at the space and this is really coming out of the Linux Space as well, anyone can fork, and of course it has a slightly different connotation now with GitHub, where when you make a change, you fork it, but there's also just a massive centripetal force pushing people together. And when you have a really high velocity of changes, the idea of forking and you would lose out on that, becomes a lot less appealing. And so, so far thankfully, all of our members and everyone in the community has really been on board on having a single head on working together to have that consultation. >> We just had Richard Kaufman on from, I think Robert Kaufman, I mean, from Samsung, he was talking about that the number two contributor is other. >> Dan: Yes. >> Which is a nice balance to the whole critical mass. >> It's an incredible accomplishment cause for Google to pull in enough people that they're no longer the majority contributor, is something that we're thrilled with. >> Yeah, it's great to see you have Richard Kaufman. Google is the number one contributor, are you worried about that? Maybe, they've been certainly good actors in the community. I mean, they had MapReduce and let Cloudera run with it, look at what happened with that? So, we kind of all know this backstory of Kubernetes, they're kind of letting it bloom on its own. That's consistent with their current posturing? >> Well, I don't think they want to have another Cloudera. >> Which is why they embraced Kubernetes. >> But I definitely don't think it's fair to say that they're doing it on their own. They're still the largest contributor of any one company and they have a massive amount of resources, and I think they see it as a really key technology, it's something they mentioned-- >> What I was referring to is that Cloudera kind of took MapReduce under their wing and made a commercial venture out. >> Dan: Oh yeah, absolutely. >> I think Google didn't want that. >> No, and they, I mean, the way I think about it is, they had this technology a few years ago. This is definitely oversimplified. They could have kept it as a proprietary in the house thing, like Amazon Elastic Container Service. They could have made it an internal open source project, like Go, or they could have just created a Kubernetes foundation that allowed other people in, but they still controlled it. But instead they were really interested in working with the Linux Foundation and creating this Cloud Native Computing Foundation that was always designed to be much more than just Kubernetes. And that really was about trying to push the project out of the nest. But I will say that my understanding is they're still see that as an absolutely core for their business. >> Yeah, I got to give Google props out there for that because they did do the right thing there. they put it out in the open, they did a line, and they could have land grabbed that, in a different way, I mean, certainly not the way that one was above. Final question on this event, KubeCon or KubernetesCon, KubeCon, it's KubeCon, however people call it. Not to confuse with the Cube, this Cube product which is seven years and might be trademark infringement but yeah, we'll get that later. >> Dan: With a K. (both laughing) >> It's still causing a lot of confusion. But that aside, CloudNativeCon also is in conjunction, this is part of the expansion you were mentioning. Talk about the vision for the events, you got one in Berlin coming up, and certainly you could have had probably at least a few more thousand people here for sure. >> Oh well, certainly a few more hundred. And we do feel a little bad that we didn't quite aim high enough. So our vision going forward is that we have CloudNativeCon that represents all of our projects, and that KubeCon represents the biggest part of CloudNativeCon. So it's multiple tracks. It's what a ton of folks go for but we think that it also gives us a chance to expose those people to our other projects, and by the time we get to Berlin, we're certainly hoping that we have another two or three or more projects-- >> And the date on Berlin? >> It's March 29th and 30th. And then we also announced that we're going to be in Austin, in early December. And I'll say that for both of those events, we're tripling the capacity from what we had last year. So we're hoping not to be so crowded. >> I was talking to Andy Jassy last night, we had a one-on-one with him and he's talking about the first Reinvent, he didn't think he can get 4,000 people there as packed. I think you might be, having to look at more capacity potentially. I mean, at this pace. >> It's the hard question is we'd actually like to be signing contracts for 2018, and it's just really hard to predict what the right size is to get for that, because I feel terrible about the fact that we did turn people away, especially end-users that we'd like to be introducing to this space. >> Yeah, well, I can attest people watching this, definitely a fire marshal issue, because it's really packed. That's why we're in a separate room here. There was sunlight in the background earlier. Normally, we're on the show floor with the Cube, but yeah, every space is taken, hallways are jamming. >> The other thing I'll mention though, is that we are also interested in going out and reaching customers and vendors where they are. So we're going to have a booth at AWS Reinvent, and we're looking at other conferences that we can be at to help spread the Cloud Native word. >> We're certainly going to be able to have a hundred events this year, so let us know where you're at, we'll certainly bring you guys on. Let me give you the final word. Tell the folks why Kubernetes is so important. Why is this movement, why are people so excited here? For the folks that couldn't make it, what's the vibe, why is it important, and what's the impact to customers in the industry? >> So the belief is that if you're deploying a new modern software application that, putting into containers, using an orchestration platform like Kubernetes, dividing your app up into microservices is a really such a benefit in terms of optimizing your resources, and tying into a whole rapid development process, continuous integration, continuous deployment, that not doing it almost makes it impossible to compete. And so we think there's just a ton of momentum around containerization and orchestration. >> And the speed of the innovation is one of those things if you're not on it, you fall further behind and it takes more energy to catch up if you try to do it by yourself. That's the benefit of the collective communities and it highlights open source. >> Right. >> Big time in terms of successes. Dan, thanks so much for coming on, sharing the perspective, congratulations and sorry for the folks who couldn't make it, hopefully this video will help. This is the Cube here in Seattle for special coverage of CloudNativeCon and KubeCon, here in Seattle. Thanks for watching, I'm John furrier. >> Dan: Thanks. (upbeat music)