>>mhm Yes, everyone, welcome back to the cubes coverage of dr khan 2021. I'm john for your host of the cube. Got a great segment here. One of the big supporters and open source amazon web services returning back second year. Dr khan virtual Deepak Singh, vice president of the compute services at AWS Deepak, Great to see you. Thanks for coming back on remotely again soon. We'll be in real life. Reinvent is going to be in person, we'll be there. Good to see you. >>Good to see you too, john it's always good to do these. I don't know how how often I've been at the cube now, but it's great every single time your >>legend and getting on there, a lot of important things to discuss your in one of the most important areas in the technology industry right now and that is at the confluence of cloud scale and modern development applications as they shift towards as Andy Jassy says, the new guard, right. It's been happening. You guys have been a big proponent of open source and enabling open source is a service creating business models for companies. But more importantly, you guys are powering, making it easier for folks to use software. And doctor has been a big relationship for you. Could you take a minute to first talk about the doctor, a W S relationship and your involvement and what you're doing? >>Yeah, actually it goes back a long way. Uh you know, Justin, we announced PCS had reinvented 2014 and PCS at that time was very much managed orchestration service on top of DACA at that time. I think it was the first really big one out there from a cloud provider. And since then, of course, the world has evolved quite a bit and relationship with DR has evolved a lot. The thing I'd like to talk to is something that we announced that Dr last year, I don't remember if I talked about it on the cube at that time. But last year we started working with DR on how can we go from doctor Run, which customers love or DR desktop, which customers love and make it easy for people to run containers on pcs and Fergie. Uh so most new customers running containers and AWS today start with this Yes and party or half of them and we wanted to make it very easy for them to start with where they are on the laptop which is often bucket to stop and have running services the native US. So we started working with DR and that that collaboration has been very successful. We want to keep you look forward to continuing to work on evolving that where you can use Docker compose doctor, desktop, doctor run the fuel that darker customers used and the labour grand production services on the end of your side, which is the part that we've got that on. So I think that's one area where we work really well together. Uh, the other area where I think the two companies continue to work well together. It's open source in general as some of, you know, AWS has a very strong commitment to contain a. D uh, EKS our community service is moving towards community. Forget it actually runs all on community today and uh, we collaborate dr Rhonda on the Ocr specification because, you know, the Oc I am expect is becoming the de facto packaging format idea. W S. This morning we launched yesterday, we launched a service called Opera. And the main expected input for opera is an Ocr image are being in this Atlanta as well, where those ci images now a way of packaging for lambda. And I think the last one I like to call out and it has been an amazing partnership and it's an area where most people don't pay attention is amid signing. Uh, there's a project called Notary. We do the second version of the Notary Spec for remit signing and AWS Docker and a couple of other companies have been working very closely together on bringing that uh, you know, finalizing no tv too, so that at least in our case we can start building services for our customers on top of that. You know, it's it's a great relationship and I expect to see it continue. >>Well, I think one of the themes this year is developer experience. So good. Good call out there in the new announcements on the tools you have and software because that seems to be a great developer integration with Docker question I have for you is how should the customers think about things like E C. S and versus E K. S. App, Runner lambda uh for kind of running their containers. How do they understand the difference is, what's there? What's the, what's the thought process there? What's >>that? It's a good question actually been announced after. And I think there was one of the questions I started getting on twitter. You know, let's start at the very beginning. Anyone can pick up a Docker container and run it on easy to today. You can run it on easy to, we can run a light sail, but doc around works just fine. It's the limits machine. Then people want to do more complex things. They want to run large scale orchestrated services. They won't run their entire business and containers. We have customers will do that today. Uh, you know, you have people like Vanguard who runs a significant portion of the infrastructure on pcs frg or you have to elope with the heavy user of chaos, our community service. So in general, if you're running large scale systems, you're building your platforms, you're most likely to use the csny Chaos. Um, if you come from a community's background, you're, you're running communities on prem or you want the flexibility and control the communities gives you, you're gonna end up with the chaos. That's what we see our customers doing. If you just want to run containers, you want to use AWS to its fullest extent where you want the continue a P I to be part of the W A S A P. I said then you pick is yes. And I think one of the reasons you see so many customers start with the CSN, Forget is with forget to get the significant ease of use from an operational standpoint. And we see many start ups and you know, enterprises, especially security focus enterprises leaning towards farming. But there's a class of customers that doesn't want to think about orchestration that just wants. Here's my code, here's my container image just run my service for me and that's when things like happen, I can come and that's one of the reasons we launched it. Land is a little bit different. Lambda is a unique service. You buy into an event driven architecture. If you do that, then you can figure our application into this. That's they should start its magic. Uh, the container part, there is what land announced agreement where they now support containers, packaging. So instead of zip files, you can package up your functions as containers. Then lambda will run them for you. The advantage it gives you with all the tooling that you built, that you have to build your containers now works the land as well. So I won't call and a container orchestration service in the same sense of the CSC cso Afrin are but it definitely allows the container image format as a standard packaging format. I think that's the sort of universal common theme that you find across AWS at this point of time. >>You know, one of the things that we're observing at this at this event here is a lot of developers Coop con and Lennox foundations. A lot of operators to kubernetes hits that. But here's developers. And the thing is I want to ease of use, simplicity experience, but also I want the innovation. Yeah, I want all of it. When I ask you what is amazon bring to the table for the new equation, what would you say? >>Yeah, I mean for me it's always you've probably heard me say this 100 times. Many 1000 times. It's foggy fog. It's unique to us. It takes a lot of what we have learned about operating infrastructure scale. The question we asked ourselves, you know, in many ways we talk about forget even before belong pcs but we have to learn on what it meant and what customers really wanted. But the idea was when you are running clusters of instances of machines to run containers on, you have to start thinking about a lot of things that in some ways VMS but BMS in the car were taken away capacity. What kind of infrastructure to run it on? Should have been touched. Should have not been back. You know, where is my container running? Those are things. They suddenly started having to think about those kind of backwards almost. So the idea was how can we make your containerized bundles? So TCS task or community is part of the thing that you talk to and that is the main unit that you operate on. That is the unit that you get built on and meet it on. That's where Forget comes in and it allows us to do many interesting things. We've effectively changed the engine of forget since we've launched it. Uh, we run it on ec two instances and we run it on fire cracker. Uh, we have changed the forget agent architecture. We've made a lot of underneath the hood, uh, changes that even take the take advantage of the broader innovation, the rate of us, We did a whole bunch more to launch acronym trans on top of family customers don't have to think about it. They don't have to worry about it. It happens underneath the hood. It's always your engine as as you go along and it takes away all the operational pain of managing clusters of running into picking which instances to use to getting out, trying to figure out how to bend back and get efficiency. That becomes our problem. So, you know, that is an area where you should expect to see a Stuart done more. It's becoming the fabric of so many things that eight of us now. Uh, it's, you know, in some ways we're just talking a lot more to do. >>Yeah. And it's a really good time. A lot more wave of developers coming in. One of the things that we've been reporting on on Silicon England cube with our cute videos is more developers keep on coming on, more people coming in and contributing to the open source community. Even end users, not just the normal awesome hyper scholars you're talking about like classic, I call main street enterprises. So two things I want to ask you on the customer side because you have kind of to customers, you have the community that open source community and you have enterprise customers that want to make it easier. What are you seeing and hearing from customers? I know you guys work backwards from the customer. So I got to ask you work backwards from the community and work backwards from the enterprise customer. What's going on in their environment? What's the key trends that they're riding? What's the big challenges? What's the big opportunities that they're facing and saying for the community? >>Yeah, I start with the enterprise. That's almost an easier answer. Which is, you know, we're seeing increasingly enterprises moving into the cloud wholesale. Like in some ways you could argue that the pandemic has just accelerated it, but we have started seeing that before. Uh they want to move to the cloud and adult modern best practices. Uh If you see my talk agreement last few years, I've talked about modernization and all the aspects of modernization, and that's 90% of our conversation with enterprises, I've walked into a meeting supposedly to talk about containers, whatever half a conversation is spent on. How does an organization modernize? What does an organization need to do to modernize and containers and serverless play a pretty important part in it, because it gives them an opportunity to step away from the shackles of sort of fixed infrastructure and the methods and approaches that built in. But equally, we are talking about C I C. D, you know, fully automated deployments. What does it mean for developers to run their own services? What are the child, how do you monitor and uh, instrument uh, your services? How do you do observe ability in the modern world? So those are the challenges that enterprises are going towards, and you're spending a ton of time helping them there. But many of them are still running infrastructure on premises. So, you know, we have outpost for them. Uh, you know, just last week, you're talking to a bunch of our customers and they have lots of interesting ideas and things that they want to do without both, but many of them also have their own infrastructure and that's where something like UCS anywhere came from, which is hey, you like using Pcs in the cloud, You like having the safety i that just orchestrates containers for you. It does it on on his in an AWS region. It will do it in an outpost. It'll do it on wavelength, it'll do it on local zone. How about we allow you to do it on whatever infrastructure you bring to us. Uh you want to bring a raspberry pi, you can do that. You want to bring your on premises data center infrastructure, we can do that or a point of sale device, as long as you can get the agent running and you can connect to an AWS region, even though it's okay to lose connectivity every now and then. We can orchestrate a container for you over there and, you know, the same customer that likes the ease of use of Vcs. And the simplicity really resonated with that message really resonates with them. So I think where we are today with the enterprise is we've got some really good solutions for you in eight of us and we are now allowing you to take those a. P. I. S and then launch containers wherever you want to run them, whether it's the edge or whether it's your own data center. I think that's a big part of where the enterprise is going. But by and large, I think yes, a lot of them are still making that change from running infrastructure and applications the way they used to do a modern sort of, if you want to use the word cloud native way and we're helping them a lot. We've done, the community is interesting. They want to be more participatory. Uh that's where things like co pilot comes from. God, honestly, the best thing we've ever done in my order is probably are open road maps where the community can go into the road map and engage with us over there, whether it's an open source project or just trying to tell us what the feature is and how they would like to see it. It's a great engagement and you know, it's not us a lot. It's helped us prioritize correctly and think about what we want to do next. So yeah, I think that's, that >>must be very hard to do for opening up the kimono on the road map because normally that's the crown jewels and its secretive and you know, and um, now it's all out in the open. I think that is a really interesting, um, experiment and what's your reaction to that? What's been the feedback on the road map peace? Because I mean, I definitely want to see, uh, >>we do it pretty much for every service in my organization and we've been doing it now for three years. So years forget, I think about three years and it's been great. Now we are very we are very upfront, which is security and availability. Our job 000 and you know, 100 times out of 100 at altitudes between a new feature and helping our customers be available and safe. We'll do that. And this is why we don't put dates in that we just tell you directionally where we are and what we are prioritizing Uh, there every now and then we'll put something in there that, you know, well not choose not to put a feature in there because we want to keep it secret until it launches. But for the most part, 99% of our own myself there and people engaged with it. And it's not proven to be a problem because you've also been very responsible with how we manage and be very transparent on whether we can commit to something or not. And I think that's not. >>I gotta ask you on as a leader uh threaded leader on this group. Open source is super important, as you know, and you continue to do it from under years. How are you investing in the future? What's your plan? Uh plans for your team, the industry actually very inclusive, Which is very cool. It's gonna resonate well, what's the plans? Give us some details on what you're investing in, what your priorities? What's your first principles? >>Yeah, So it goes in many ways, one when I I also have the luxury also on the amazon open source program office. So, you know, I get the chance to my team, rather not me help amazon engineers participate in open source. That that's the team that helps create the tools for them, makes it easy for them to contribute, creates, you know, manages all the licenses, etcetera. I'll give you a simple example, you know, in there, just think of the cr credential helper that was written by one of our engineers and he kind of distorted because he felt it was something that we needed to do. And we made it open source in general, in in many of our teams. The first question we asked is should something the open why is this thing not open source, especially if it's a utility or some piece of software that runs along with services. So they'll step one. But we've done some big things also, I, you know, a couple of years ago we launched Lennox operating system called bottle Rocket. And right from the beginning it was very clear to us that bottle Rocket was two things. It was both in AWS product. But first it was an open source project. We've already learned a little bit from what we've done at Firecracker. But making bottle rocket and open source operating system is very important. Anyone can take part of Rocket the open source to build tooling. You can run it whatever you want. If you want to take part of Rocket and build a version and manage it for another provider. For another provider wants to do it, go for it. There's nothing stopping you from doing that. So you'll see us do a lot there. Obviously there's multiple areas. You've seen WS investing on the open source side. But to me, the winds come from when engineers can participate in small things, released little helpers or get contributions from outside. I think that's where we're still, we can always have that. We're going to continue to strive to make it better and easier. And uh, you know, I said, I have, you know, me and my team, we have an opportunity to help their inside the company and we continue to do so. But that's what gets me excited. >>Yeah, that's great stuff. And congratulations on investing in the community, really enjoys it and I know it moves the needle for the industry. Deepak, I gotta ask you why I got you here. Dr khan obviously, developers, what's the most important story that they should be paying attention to as a developer because of what's going on shift left for security day two operations also known as a I ops getups, whatever you wanna call it, you know, ongoing, you get server lists, you got land. I mean, all kinds of great things are going on. You mentioned Fargate, >>um >>what should they be paying attention to that's going to really help their life, both innovation wise and just the quality of life. >>Yeah, I would say look at, you know, in the end it is very easy developers in particular, I want to build the buildings and it's very easy to get tempted to try and get learn everything about something. You have access to all the bells and whistles and knobs, but in reality, if you want to run things you want to, you want to focus on what's important, the business application, that and you the application. And I think a lot of what I'll tell developers and I think it's a lot of where the industry is going is we have built a really solid foundation, whether it's humanity, so you CSN forget or you know, continue industries out there. We have very solid foundation that, you know, our customers and develop a goal of the world can use to build upon. But increasingly, and you know, they are going to provide tools that sort of take that wrap them up and providing a nice package solution After another great example, our collaboration, the doctor around Dr desktop are a great example where we get all the mark focus on the application and build on top of that and you can get so much done. I think that's one trend. You'll see more and more. Those things are no longer toys, their production grade systems that you can build real world applications on, even though they're so easy to use. The second thing I would add to that is uh, get uh, it is, you know, you can give it whatever name you want. There's uh, there's nuances there, but I actually think get up is the way people should be running the infrastructure, my virus in my personal, you know, it's something that we believe a lot in homicide as hard as you go towards immutable infrastructure, infrastructure, automation, we can get off plays a significant role. I think developers naturally gravitate towards it. And if you want to live in a world where development and operations are tightly linked, I think it after the huge role to play in that it's actually a big part of how we're planning to do things like yes, anywhere, for example, a significant player and that it would be a proton. I think get up will be a significant in the future of proton as well. So I think that's the other trend. If you wanted to pick a trend that people should pay attention. That's what I believe in a lot. >>Well you're an expert. So I want to get you a quick definition. What is get Ops, how would you define it? Because that's a big trend. What does it, what does that mean? >>Electricity will probably shoot me for getting this wrong. I tell you how I think about it. Which is, you know, in many cases, um, you when you're doing deployments are pushing a deployment getups is more of a full deployment. When you are pushing code to get depository, you have a system that knows that the event has happened and then pulls from there and triggers the thing as opposed to you telling it take I have this new piece of code now go deployed everywhere. So to me, the biggest changes that Two parts one is it's more for full mechanism where you're pulling because something has changed. So it needs systems like container orchestrators to keep them, you know, to keep them in sync. And the second part of the natural natural evolution of infrastructure score, which is basically everything is called the figures code. Infrastructure as code, code is code and everything is getting stored in that software repo and the software repo becomes your store of record and drives everything. Uh So for a glass of customers, that's going to be a pretty big deal. >>Yeah, when you're checking in code, that's again, it's like a compiler for the compiler, a container for the container, you've got things for each other. Automation is ultimately what we're talking about here. And that's to me where machine learning kicks in. So again, having this open source foundational fabric, as you said, forget out the muck or the undifferentiated heavy lifting. This is what we're talking about automation, isn't it? Deepak? >>Yes. I mean I said uh one thing where we hang our hat on is there's such good stuff out there in the world which we like to contribute to, but the thing we like to hang our hat on is how do you run this? How do you do it this in ways that you can uniquely bring capabilities to customers where there's things like nitro or things are nitro open stuff. Well, the fact that we have built up this operational infrastructure over the last in a decade plus or in the container space over the last seven years where we really really know how to run these things at scale and have made all the investments to make it easy to do. So that's that's where we have hanger hard keeping people safe, helping them only available applications, their new startup, that just completely takes off in over the weekend. For whatever reason, because, you know, you're the next hot thing on twitter and our goal is to support you whether you are, you know, uh enterprise that's moving from the main train or you are the next hot startup, that's you know, growing virally and uh, you know, we've done a lot to build systems help both sides and yeah, it's >>interesting if you sing about open source where it's come from, I mean I remember that base wouldn't open source wasn't open, I would be peddling software, there's a free copy of Linux, UNIX um in college and now it's all free. But I mean just what's changed now. It used to be just free software, download software. You got it now, it's a service. Service now can be monetized quickly. And what you guys are offering with AWS and cloud scale is you've done all these things as I don't have to have a developer. I get the benefits of the scale, I can bring my open source code to the table, make it a service integrated in with other services and be the next snowflake, be the next, you know, a company that could scale. And that is that's the that's the innovation, right? That's the this is a new phenomenon. So it also changes the business model. >>Yeah, actually you're you're quite right. Actually, I I like one more thing to it. But you look at how a lot of enterprises use containers today. Most of them are using something like this year, Symphony or GS to build an internal developer platform and internal developer portal. And then the question then becomes this hard to scale this modern and development practices to an entire organization. What is your big bank that's been around as thousands and thousands of ID stuff That may not all be experts are running communities running container is when you scale it out different systems that proton come into play. That was actually the inspiration is how do you help an organization where they're building these developer Portholes and developer infrastructure, developer platforms, How do you make it easy for them to build it? Be almost use it as a way to get these modern practices into the hands of all the business units, where they may not have the time to become experts at the modern ways of running infrastructure because they're busy doing other things. And I think you'll see the a lot more happening that space that's not happening in the open source community. There's proton, there's a bunch of interesting things happening here and be interesting to see how that evolves. >>And also, you know, the communal, communal aspect of not just writing code together, but succeeding, right, building something. I mean, that's when you start to see the commercial meets open kind of ethos of communal activity of working together and sharing a big part of this year's. Dakar Con is sharing not just running and shipping code but sharing. >>Yeah, I mean if you think about it uh Dockers original value was you build run and shit right? You use the same code to build it, you use the same code to ship it, the same sort of infrastructure interface and then you run it and that, you know, the fact that the doctor images such a wonderfully shareable entity uh that can run every girl is such a powerful and it's called the Ci Image. Now I still call him Dr images because it's just easier. But that to me like that is a big deal and I think it's becoming and become an even bigger deal over the years. I came from something before, Amazon has to work in The sciences and bioinformatics and you know, the ability to share codeshare dependencies, package all of that up in a container image is a big deal. It's what got me one of the reasons I got fascinated with container 78 years ago. So it will be interesting to see where all of systems. >>It's great, great stuff. Great success. And congratulations. Deepak, Great to always talk to you got a great finger on the pulse. You lead a really important organizations at AWS and you know, doctor has such a huge success with developers, even though the company has gone through kind of a uh change over and a pivot to what they're doing now. They're back to their open source roots, but they have millions and millions of developers use Docker and new developers are coming in dot net developers are coming in. Windows developers are coming in and and so it's no longer about Lennox anymore. It's about just coding. >>Yeah. And it's it's part of this big trend towards infrastructure, automation and and you know development and deployment practices that I think everyone is going to adopt faster than we think they will. But you know, companies like Doctor and opens those projects that they involved are critical in making that a lot easier for them. And then you know, folks like us get to build on top of that orbit them and make it even easier. >>Well, great testimony the doctor that you guys based your E C. S on Docker Doctor has a critical role in developing community. I run composed in their hub with dr desktop and we'll be watching amazon and and the community activity and see what kind of experiences you guys can bring to the table and continue that momentum. Thank you Deepak for coming on the >>cube. Thank you, john. That's always a pleasure. >>Okay. Mr cubes. Dr khan 2021 virtual coverage. I'm john for your host of the cube. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen Denmark, it's theCUBE covering Kubecon and CloudnativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, live here at Copenhagen, Denmark, Cube's coverage of Kubecon 2018 in Europe, this is all about the Kubernetes the future of cloud native, CloudNativeCon part of the CNCF Cloud Native Foundation, I'm John Furrier and my co-host Lauren Cooney, founder of Spark Labs industry expert of open source. So, we have two end user customers of Kubernetes and Cloud Native, Zach Arnold, software engineer Ygenre energy fund, and Austin Adams software development manager, same company. You guys are doing really interesting business model around energy and equity in buildings and homes, but you're writing code, so you have to make all this stuff work, so I'm sure you're cloud native, why have a data center when you can have the cloud >> Austin : We were born in the cloud. >> You were born in the cloud. So take us through, explain the business real quick, and then what's your back end, technical scaling situation look like in terms of infrastructure, software and what's the make up of the systems. >> Zach: You know the business best. >> Yeah, so Ygrene operates under something called PACE, property assess clean energy. We operate in a couple of different states. We work with local governments to create a PACE program that is accepted in different counties or jurisdictions within the state, and then we allow homeowners and contracting companies to provide financing for home improvements that are specifically within the domain of renewable energy or energy efficiency. >> So, you basically finance a solar panel that I put on my house or building if there's benefits there, and then you guys get the financing and you tie in with the government so the property taxes, the leverage the security is the building right, or the asset. >> Yeah, and the way that we're chartered is basically we can put a tax on the property which gives us some guarantees on repayment and things like that, and it's a great model so far. >> It's a new financial engineering around energy efficiancy so you've got to build systems, so you're working with government, so now we all know how government systems work, so you've got to be agile and nimble. Take us through how the back end works, what's it look like, what's the system look like, you're hosted in the cloud, is it Amazon, Google? >> So everything that we have is in a cloud provider that starts with an A, and ends with an S, it's AWS I don't know if I can say that, I think I can say that, AWS all the way-- >> Yes, it's good. >> And we have tons of services, we have Kubernetes running most of our main services. Within our migration we actually started with our main service. A lot of people start with, you know, their smallest microservice, we just went whole-hog and just went in for it, so they system is mainly a lone-management system. Underwriting data aggregation and underwriting processing, so every application that comes in we have to underwrite it and make sure every little thing checks out, and our underwriting system has won awards for how accurate it is and how high quality it is as well. >> So, I'm doing a mental white board in my mind, just kind of graphing this so just help me out here and take us through this. So, you guys are a cutting edge company, new progressive business model, real innovative, great stuff. Cloud native, so you're born in the cloud no data center, cool, check, it's what everyone does, and now you're like okay, now I've got to deal with these legacy systems. So, you're putting containers around things, so you have to interface, you build your own system so that's cool, but you're dealing with other systems and then how are you handling that, you are just containerizing it, so take us through some of those linkages. >> Yeah, so where we're creating, a lot of times when we have to integrate with another system, we'll create a small service that is code that we own, and we'll reach out to those integrations, those vendors and we'll do aggregation within our system and provide an interface back to our systems. You know, like everyone, we're breaking up the monolith or whatever, maybe in 10 years we'll go back to a monolith, who knows but you know we're slicing out things, making microservices, it looks like a mess on the back end, just tons of microservices going everywhere and that's why we're using all these Cloud Native tools to be able to manage that. So, in order to move quickly, we're wanting to containerize everything, everything runs in a container at this point. >> Lauren: Great. >> A lot of our services follow this kind of we're kind of calling the container adaptor pattern, it follows the software adaptor pattern where, just like Austin was saying, let's say for example we're interfacing with a credit vendor, we create a service where we talk to our own service that has a well defined interface that we know will always get a credit report back with the following fields, but then where that information actually comes from, whether it's one of the big three credit vendors or someone else who has a well defined API, that's largely not the concern of the main loan management system, it's the concern of the microservice that's responsible for reaching out to that other entity there. So, that's how we've kind of gotten to beat around the legacy interfacing of all these other different financial services and tools that help to aggregate data.. >> It's super clever you can optimize on a service basis but now you have to orchestrate and kind of conduct everything through-- >> And keep everything secure. >> That's really interesting, I mean I think what I'm looking at here is a huge ecosystem of partners and companies and end users coming together and one of the questions, beyond why you are here, what are you looking at here, what is interesting to you, what do you want to learn about that you might bring into your, you know, architecture essentially? >> Austin and I were talking about this, we kind of tend to look at the CNCF list of projects as a dinner menu. (laughs) >> We're refreshing that page frequently, because we're adding projects at an alarming rate, but one project we're using FluentD, Notary, Kubernetes, of course, Prometheus, things like that, we want to start using those things more extensively. One's that we're really excited about are Spire and Spiffy, the identity, kind of a new take, not necessarily new but new for cloud native take on identity of services and authentication, as well as the open policy agent to provide a single DSL to do all of your policy and authorization-- >> Lauren: That's a lot of work, load and management and identity correct? >> Yeah, yes. >> Authorization and authentication are two of the most important things that happen in our system and we have so many different ways that it happens right now, it can tend to look a little clogy, just from the sense of the fact that we need a little more coordination or standardization around it, I mean we have well written policies that are documented but the way that those actually get enforced are, it's individualized based on the service, you know, if it's a cloud based policy, then it's AWS IAM, if it's Kubernetes based policy it's RBAC using Kubernetes RBAC, so it kind of looks like if we can abstact a lot of that functionality out of the services, the containers, the orchestration tool or the cloud, to making those decisions, that would really, really simplify things for us. >> So, you guys are end users, so are you part of like an end user group that gives feedback directly into the community or how does that work, and do you contribute to that? >> Yes, so we're on the fringes of the contributor community as well, and we're definitely on GitHub on all these projects posting issues and in some cases providing our own PR's or whatever. None of us are within the Kubernetes orb but that's definitely something we all are achieving or aspiring to be is jumping into some of these projects, especially some of the smaller projects that we're using on a daily basis on our build servers like, Portheurs or Notary, some of those things we're actively contributing to those. >> So, you've traded on mastery of product but being active on the project is the key, the balance there. >> Yeah, I mean typically what you find in the fiance industry is when they go for a solution, they lead with their wallet as for what we can purchase, or what we can sponsor, but Ygrene has been, our managers and management have been incredibly empowering this way, they say well what can we give, we lead with our hands. >> Yeah, and this is interesting, if you have a good business model innovation, which you guys have, you can be a completely clean sheet of paper to build it. >> Right >> So, that's the best thing about the cloud. You can really move fast and go from, you know, point A to point B, move the needle. >> Yeah, with it at the same time there's kind of a clean slate, there's even a clean slate in terms of best practices within our industry. Now if we were in mortgage, there's a lot of rules, there's a lot of clear guidelines on how to do security and auditing and things that you need, where in our industry that's all emerging, so we have a chance to also set the pace, set the tone for what security might look like, or what cloud usage might look like within the PACE industry. But at the same time, we're getting increasing government regulations, so we're having to make these decisions around, what are the tools that are going help us achieve maximum customer protection and audit-ability while maintaining our business model without totally-- >> And you're going to need flexibility because you don't know what's going to come next you've got to be ready for anything, and that is what leads to my next question, two points, how do you guys prepare for what's next, what's the main ethos around, technical architecture around being prepared for that, ready state that's coming to you, and then two, what have you learned over the, what's the scar tissue look like, what's the moments of joy and despair going on because you're reiterating, your learning, you're always constantly getting knocked down, standing back up. so this is what innovation is, it can be fun and also grueling at the same time. >> Yeah, so how we deal with what's new beyond our like software process, we have a well-defined process that everything gets churned into. Government is really good about giving us notice about when stuff's going into effect, so we always have target dates that we're going toward. But, in terms of what's next in terms of our software, we have this interesting culture within our organization, everyone wants to improve everything, I think it's called a Kaizen culture, just people are looking at stuff they want to improve it, and so our process allows for anyone to throw something on the backlog. It will get prioritized and put around, but we're allowing all of our engineers to say, hey we want to do this, and you know, putting it into an open forum where, you know, we might not do it but we have the discussion, and we have all the channels to have those discussions and, like most technology companies or technology focused companies, we spend a lot of time talking about technologies, and making those decisions. >> You guys really have the cultural ethos but the people to bate and then commit. >> And that's one of my, you know, recommendations for any company trying to move to cloud native or Kubernetes is, always, you have to have your evangelists, on your team, because you can't expect people who have been doing it one way forever to instantly be onboard. You need some sort of technical evangelist whether that's outside company, it works best, I think, if it's someone you've hired, or someone in your organization who's preaching the gospel of Kubernetes or cloud native. >> Spark Labs, Lauren's company's doing a lot of that work, but that really nails it, I mean, you got to just, it's not a technical issue, per se-- >> Exactly. >> We're hearing that all through the show here. What's on your wish list, what is the holiday's want to bring for you? If you could throw your wish list out there, and you can, a magic wand, crystal ball >> EKS, if Amazon would respond to our request. >> Okay, we just had AG on yesterday, he said it's coming >> It's coming. >> He said, months, >> Did he say months, I thought it was a few months, So maybe >> We'll check the transcripts. >> Alright >> Yeah, it wasn't tomorrow. >> That's alright. >> And that's one of our, that's our scar tissue right? We're doing this ourself, you know, there's this huge control board and we got people, you know, doing the knobs and things and we're relatively small, you know, we're a small engineering organization so we're doing a lot of this ourselves where we can abstract a lot of that work out to a cloud provider that we are already on. >> Well it's going to be good reps for you guys as this thing gets abstracted away, you're going to have a great core competencies in Kubernetes, I think that is a notable thing there. >> Austin: For sure. >> One of the things on my wish list, I was speaking to Jace and Josh Burkus and a lot of the core contributors in Kubernetes at the Contributors Summit, I kind of realized that I would love to see a coordinated cross cutting after, either on part of the CNCF or on part of The Kubernetes Project proper, to have a proactive security, I wouldn't call it a working group, I guess a SIG, a Special Interest Group. It would be, I know that we can deal with zero day issues really, really quickly. For example, the Azure host path mapping issue that was a few months ago, but right now it's kind of on the responsibility of each SIG to implement whatever security looks like to them individually, which is great, it means there are people thinking about security, that makes me sleep better at night. But, seeing some coordination around that and kind of driving towards, okay we have this tool that seems to be changing the game, how are we going to change the game with security? Like is there a way to look at that and even, 'cause authentication and authorization have been around since more than one user used a terminal in the 1960's and 70's. But, even with this new step of admission controllers, where we have more fine grain control around how stuff gets into the cluster. I think it would be great to look at what a coordinated cloud native security effort would look like. >> I think that's great, I mean we've been talking to a lot of vendors here and a lot of folks that have projects, and we bring security every single time and they kind of have an answer, but they really don't. >> They body swerve you, we've got this we've got that. >> Or you're the developer and you have to build it in yourself, so I totally agree with that recommendation I think it's fabulous. >> Yeah, Kubernetes is making so many things simpler at certain levels. Now, if we can focus those efforts at making security simple for people, because they're security experts, they can put their two cents in >> Lauren: Let's build it in and not block it on. >> Build it in and not expect every developer to know. >> Zach: Don't bolt it on, build it in. >> Build it from the beginning, there are all kinds of new ways. The fact there is no perimeter with the cloud brings up, really kind of throws everyone for a loop because you have to go to the chipset down, I mean what Google got, I think is a very interesting approach, they're trying to push forward this multilayer approach from chip to kernel to OS to app, interesting. They've got, managing through all their security, they've got android, I mean spear phishing is a huge problem right now, we're seeing and a lot of enterprises we talk to are like, well, it's like the firewalls and VPN's like that's old school, they need to modernize that so this is going to get them thinking about that. So great, hey guys, thank you for coming on and sharing your feedback-- >> Thank you. >> And your data and your place and how you are architected on AWS and your work with Kubernetes. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Cube coverage here in Copenhagen. It's theCUBE's coverage at Kubecon 2018. We'll be back with more after this short break.

(Upbeat Music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit, North America, 2017, brought to you by the Linux Foundation and The Red Hat. >> Hey, welcome back everyone, live here in Los Angeles, California for theCUBE's exclusive coverage of Open Source Summit in North America. I'm John Furrrier, with my co-star Stu Miniman, Our next guest is Patrick Chanezan, who is a member of the technical docker, also on the governing board of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, also known as CNCF, which is the hottest part of the open-source community right now. It's very fast, we're very trendy, a lot of people are on the bandwagon, a lot of contribution going on. Welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you. >> Hey, thanks, John and Stu, it's very good to be back on theCUBE. >> Docker's been just a great company to follow since the beginning, the birth of Docker to the transformation from Dark Cloud to Docker. It's just a great team. We have a lot of respect for you guys. Congratulations. But the CNCF right now is the hottest thing, there's more platinum sponsors than I think maybe members. It seems to be very hot. Industry loves it, developer is going crazy about it, why is CNCF so hot? What's your perspective on that? >> What we're seeing right now is really the realization of adoption of containers, we talked about it two years ago. It was very early, and people were starting to use Docker and just covering containers. Today they're really putting them into production, and what we see at Docker with our customer base is that they are using it more and more to modernize traditional applications. So we see tremendous use of containers everywhere in enterprises, and the rise of CNCF is tied to that, I think. We're seeing more and more developers joining the bandwagon, more and more systems being built based on containers. And at Docker, we're playing a big role into that. >> Patrick, for a couple years, the chant was Docker, Docker, Docker, and sometimes people say, "Cubernetti's is where the hotness is." Well underneath that, there's containers. And a lot of those containers, Docker's involved there. Maybe you can help us understand the nuance a little bit as the Cubernetti's wave has grown, sure there was the Mezos, Docker Swarm, Cubernetti's war, if you will there, but what does this mean for Docker? What are you seeing from your customers? Give us the update on Docker itself. We'll probably need to get into the Mobi stuff, too, as we get into the interview. >> Sure, definitely. That's a big question, so let's start with the beginning. When enterprises adopt containers, what happens is that usually it starts with the wrappers who are adopting containers with Docker. So they download Docker for their Windows machine, or for their Mac, or on Linux, they start modernizing their applications. What we see is more and more enterprising wrappers, modernizing existing applications by Dockerizing them, and then the next step is that they want to put that into production. For that, you need the whole system. So at Docker, we have two systems. We have Docker C and Docker E, our enterprise version that has role-based controlled sequencing and all that good stuff. There are lots of different components that you need in order to have a production container system, and so Cuberneris, the orchestration engine is one piece of that. At Docker, we have swarm kits. But there are lots of other different components and lots of different layers to that system. So you have the infrastructure layer that you are using to deploy that inside the firewall or in different cloud providers. Many different solutions there. At Docker, we have one that's called infrakit, that we're using in our additions, to deploy it everywhere. Then on top of that, you need some version of Linux. At Docker Con in April, we released a project called Linuxkit, which helps you do that. On top of that, you need a container run-time. Traditionally, it's been Docker. Right now, we re-factored the Docker codebase to extract a core run-time component that's called container G, which we donated to CNCF. Container G is nearing one or better, so it would be one of them pretty soon. Then, on top of that, you need an orchestration engine. Docker E comes with its own orchestration based on swarm, Cuberneris is another orchestration engine that people like. Cuberneris, behind the scenes, is using Docker, and right now we are working very closely with theCUBE rneris community to implement CRI container G. So CRI is the container run-time interface in Cuberneris that lets you plug in different engines to plug container G in the place of Docker in there. >> Stu: There's a lot of pieces in here. We had too many interviews yesterday talking about the Open Container Initiative, or OCI, which really made sure we've got the 1.0 version of that done. What container format, seems like we're in agreement. We're not fighting over that kind of piece anymore. From the Cubernetti's community, I heard loud and clear, they're like, we've got container D. We've kind of got what we want. We're happy it's open-sourced. We're going. We were at Docker Con when you annouced Mobi, which is kind of open-source, and it felt like we were still trying to figure out all those pieces. Give us the update as to Mobi, you're talking at the open source show, you talk a little bit about CE and EE being the productized versions, but part of it is what we used to think of as Docker is now Mobi, and the company Docker versus the project. You kind of teased those apart a little bit, right? >> Yes. Exactly. And actually, that's what I came here at the Open Summit to talk about, to give people an update on the Mobi project. So what we announced back in April was the launch of the Mobi project, which is the end of a two year re-factoring of the Docker codebase into different components. So all these components on the stack that I told you about, we just tease them out from the Docker codebase so that it's a modular set of components that you can assemble together. Mobi is three things. It's an open source project where people can collaborate in container-based systems. It's also a tool that we're using to assemble our components into Mobi Corp, which is the upstream of Docker products. Then it's also a set of lots of components, like container G, Linux, Infrakit, Notary, and all the projects I talked about. One other thing we've started doing since April as well is we started proposing to donate some of these container projects to CNCF. So container G is already part of CNCF now. Recently, this summer, we proposed Infrakit, and they think it's a little bit too early for donation, because they want to see other, different projects in there. Right now we're in the process of donating and proposing Notary, so there's an active discussion in there, and I hope that the vote will happen probably next week or something like that. So Notary is the component that we're using for Docker, and we think that this could be used in lots of different Cloud Native systems, so it really has its place in the CNCF. >> So identity component for the container management, or what specifically is that going to address? >> So Notary is the piece that we're using in Docker Con Contrast to make sure that you can trust the images that you've built. A signed signature should be able to revoke all the signatures, all the kind of features that our customers love in Docker E. >> John: It's kind of like Stu and me on Twitter, he's verified, I'm not. But this is important, because now, this is a stamp of approval, if you will, that the community can look to. >> Yeah, definitely. So it's something that we implement in Docker, and now people building other containment systems who will be able to use it. And so Mobi saw a lot of traction for its different projects, some of them are going to CNCF, some of them are growing by themselves. On the Docker side, we made some progress prioritizing all that with Docker C and Docker E. We had a 1706 launch of Docker E recently, with lots of new role-based axis control, controls for enterprises, who are adopting it essentially to modernize their traditional apps. >> Take us through a kind of personal question. You were just at a board meeting with the CNCF. Did everyone show up or are people calling in? >> I think Alexi Richardson was the only one, maybe two people on the phone. >> John: Was Sam Redjay there? >> Sam was not there either, but Epona was standing for him. So the room was full, and to me it's really an impressive achievement, two years after we helped start the CNCF. The first meetings were 10, 15 people at Google deciding to create this foundation, and today, maybe we're twenty or thirty people around the table. An\d everybody-- >> Even before that Google meeting, we were covering theCUBE Con Cubernettis' movement early on from your event. So I think, out of Docker Con and some of the Linux Foundation events, the early momentum, we were there, Stu. Then it became the CNCF, and they decided, hey, let's get the Cloud Native Foundation. So it's interesting to me, seeing the growth from the beginning. And it's unique to have that opportunity to be in the front lines of an organically developing group. It wasn't really build the table and come, this was a realization. >> It was a realization and also a concerted effort to build something together to show customers where the containment systems were going in terms of architecture-- >> What were the factors beside, I mean Docker was big driver. Notably, you should get the credit for pioneering the space. But what were the drivers for this coalescing, this call to arms, if you will, or this organic formation of CNCF. What were the key drivers in your mind. Obviously, containers is one. What are the other ones? >> Yeah, to me, containers is a big one, because when you are starting to design your system with containers in mind, you need to change lots of things, how you're building them and things like that. And how you are architecting things together. There were lots of questions about how you do the balancing in that kind of system, how do you do monitoring, how do you do tracing. The CNCF was assembled so that all these components have a place where we can show our inter-repairability between them. So Docker is part of that, Mezos is part of that, as well as Cuberneris. There's a big inter-repairability work that's happening in there. We had a report in the board meeting today about the new CI Initiative that tests different CNCF projects together. >> John: What CI? >> Sorry, continuous integration. >> John: Got it, yeah. >> So there's the continuous integration-- >> John: Not conversion infrastructure. >> Oh, you're right, yeah. >> We always get acronym-ed up. But Chris Anazik was talking yesterday about the graduation path, still waiting to see something graduate from the process. What's going to graduate first? Any bets, what's the betting, what betting is going on? Do you guys actually make bets? Is there a fantasy drafting going on? >> I don't think that really matters, what matters is really adoption of the components. >> Okay, so what's happening on the graduation scale? What's coming out of the woodworks? What's next? What's going to graduate first? >> So one thing I'm curious about is whether Container G will graduate, because it's kind of mature now, it's reaching 1-0 with the CRI and soon integration in Docker, it may be a good candidate for graduation. For the others, I don't know which ones would be first into the graduation process. >> Well, we know it's a high bar, for sure. >> Patrick, the stuff that's getting mature. What about some of the roadmap there? From Docker and CNCF, something like serverless containers, first generation, are going to be important. We had too many interviews this week talking about, today, many of the containers we'll see in the future where serverless and open Faz and things like that go. So how does that all fit in? Can you give us a Docker and a CNCF view on that? >> Let's talk about the CNCF view first. CNCF is working on lots of different areas where there needs to be more definition about what Cloud Native means for storage, for example, with the CSI Initiative, container storage interface, CNI, container networking interface, and then there's the working group for CI, which is about integrating all these projects together, but the working group I'm most interested in is the serverless one. So we have a Docker rep at the serverless working group, and there we're trying to define what a portable, serverless stack looks like. And at Docker, we're naturally interested in this -- >> Of course, Serverless is a beautiful thing. >> Most of these projects are running on top of Docker, so open Faz for people-- >> I got to ask you, Patrick, because we love serverless, I have a love/hate relationship with the word serverless because technically it's a beautiful thing, but there's servers involved. I'm an old-school, so I kind of look at it differently. The younger generation, they want infrastructure as code. This is a clear obvious thing. It was once a dream, but now it's become a reality. What's your position on that? Where is it on the progress bar? How close are we to serverless? >> I'd say there's an initial adoption of serverless on one of the few stacks that exist out there today. So you have the hosted services, the Faz services, from Amazon, Microsoft, and Google, where I'm more interested, and I think customers are kind of looking for that, is a portable way of doing that. For example, in studying that on top of Docker platforms, so that's what projects like Open Faz is doing. Right now, I think we're really in the stage of discussions with CNCF of what a portable service layer would look like so that you could focus on your code, but be able to deploy on Prim, on top of Docker, or in different cloud providers. So that portability aspect to me is very important there. And I think it's important for customers as well. To me, also, I'm an old timer as well, I used to pitch a platform as a service at the beginning of it, Google App Engine, many years ago. To me, it's kind of a feeling of deja vu. We're kind of re-inventing that, but with containers and in a much more portable way. >> The beautiful thing about being an old-timer is we get to look back and, not so much to the young kids, get off my lawn, we had to walk to school with bare feet in the snow, build our own libraries. I was just talking to Eilene, she's like, "Oh, my low-level class was C and my high-level class was Python." I'm like, "Our low-level class was machine code "and high-level wasn't even C yet." >> Yesterday, at the party, I was discussing with one of the IBM engineers, who's working on Linux and containers on mainframe, and we were talking about GCL, and that's the type of feeling that we got. Like we're getting higher up in the stack, and I think for modern developers, it really helped them-- >> It's a beautiful thing right now. Just think about the young guns that are coming up. This is a beautiful library of options now. 90% of the code is leverage-able. That's like unbelievable. So it really allows the creativity of the developer to be a lot more about structural engineering code-base rather than just being very creative on the 10-20% of real intellectual property that they can bring to the table. >> I would add something, it's really about creating value, as opposed to building infrastructure. When we're getting up the stack, and serverless is an example of that, it's really about creating value for enterprises, and that's what these wrappers are about. >> When you start dreaming in code, you know you're doing good. Patrick, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, and congratulations on all the success with CNCF, and certainty Docker. You guys continue to impress and do a great job. I know there's some changes over there we're looking for, some of the cool stuff graduating out of CNCF, more Docker container goodness from you guys. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. We appreciate it. I'm John Furrier, we're live in Los Angeles, California, for the Open Source Summit North America coverage with theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman back with more after this short break.