(gentle music) >> Hello everyone. Welcome to this CUBE conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We got a great remote guest coming in. Joseph Nelson, co-founder and CEO of RoboFlow hot startup in AI, computer vision. Really interesting topic in this wave of AI next gen hitting. Joseph, thanks for coming on this CUBE conversation. >> Thanks for having me. >> Yeah, I love the startup tsunami that's happening here in this wave. RoboFlow, you're in the middle of it. Exciting opportunities, you guys are in the cutting edge. I think computer vision's been talked about more as just as much as the large language models and these foundational models are merging. You're in the middle of it. What's it like right now as a startup and growing in this new wave hitting? >> It's kind of funny, it's, you know, I kind of describe it like sometimes you're in a garden of gnomes. It's like we feel like we've got this giant headstart with hundreds of thousands of people building with computer vision, training their own models, but that's a fraction of what it's going to be in six months, 12 months, 24 months. So, as you described it, a wave is a good way to think about it. And the wave is still building before it gets to its full size. So it's a ton of fun. >> Yeah, I think it's one of the most exciting areas in computer science. I wish I was in my twenties again, because I would be all over this. It's the intersection, there's so many disciplines, right? It's not just tech computer science, it's computer science, it's systems, it's software, it's data. There's so much aperture of things going on around your world. So, I mean, you got to be batting all the students away kind of trying to get hired in there, probably. I can only imagine you're hiring regiment. I'll ask that later, but first talk about what the company is that you're doing. How it's positioned, what's the market you're going after, and what's the origination story? How did you guys get here? How did you just say, hey, want to do this? What was the origination story? What do you do and how did you start the company? >> Yeah, yeah. I'll give you the what we do today and then I'll shift into the origin. RoboFlow builds tools for making the world programmable. Like anything that you see should be read write access if you think about it with a programmer's mind or legible. And computer vision is a technology that enables software to be added to these real world objects that we see. And so any sort of interface, any sort of object, any sort of scene, we can interact with it, we can make it more efficient, we can make it more entertaining by adding the ability for the tools that we use and the software that we write to understand those objects. And at RoboFlow, we've empowered a little over a hundred thousand developers, including those in half the Fortune 100 so far in that mission. Whether that's Walmart understanding the retail in their stores, Cardinal Health understanding the ways that they're helping their patients, or even electric vehicle manufacturers ensuring that they're making the right stuff at the right time. As you mentioned, it's early. Like I think maybe computer vision has touched one, maybe 2% of the whole economy and it'll be like everything in a very short period of time. And so we're focused on enabling that transformation. I think it's it, as far as I think about it, I've been fortunate to start companies before, start, sell these sorts of things. This is the last company I ever wanted to start and I think it will be, should we do it right, the world's largest in riding the wave of bringing together the disparate pieces of that technology. >> What was the motivating point of the formation? Was it, you know, you guys were hanging around? Was there some catalyst? What was the moment where it all kind of came together for you? >> You know what's funny is my co-founder, Brad and I, we were making computer vision apps for making board games more fun to play. So in 2017, Apple released AR kit, augmented reality kit for building augmented reality applications. And Brad and I are both sort of like hacker persona types. We feel like we don't really understand the technology until we build something with it and so we decided that we should make an app that if you point your phone at a Sudoku puzzle, it understands the state of the board and then it kind of magically fills in that experience with all the digits in real time, which totally ruins the game of Sudoku to be clear. But it also just creates this like aha moment of like, oh wow, like the ability for our pocket devices to understand and see the world as good or better than we can is possible. And so, you know, we actually did that as I mentioned in 2017, and the app went viral. It was, you know, top of some subreddits, top of Injure, Reddit, the hacker community as well as Product Hunt really liked it. So it actually won Product Hunt AR app of the year, which was the same year that the Tesla model three won the product of the year. So we joked that we share an award with Elon our shared (indistinct) But frankly, so that was 2017. RoboFlow wasn't incorporated as a business until 2019. And so, you know, when we made Magic Sudoku, I was running a different company at the time, Brad was running a different company at the time, and we kind of just put it out there and were excited by how many people liked it. And we assumed that other curious developers would see this inevitable future of, oh wow, you know. This is much more than just a pedestrian point your phone at a board game. This is everything can be seen and understood and rewritten in a different way. Things like, you know, maybe your fridge. Knowing what ingredients you have and suggesting recipes or auto ordering for you, or we were talking about some retail use cases of automated checkout. Like anything can be seen and observed and we presume that that would kick off a Cambrian explosion of applications. It didn't. So you fast forward to 2019, we said, well we might as well be the guys to start to tackle this sort of problem. And because of our success with board games before, we returned to making more board game solving applications. So we made one that solves Boggle, you know, the four by four word game, we made one that solves chess, you point your phone at a chess board and it understands the state of the board and then can make move recommendations. And each additional board game that we added, we realized that the tooling was really immature. The process of collecting images, knowing which images are actually going to be useful for improving model performance, training those models, deploying those models. And if we really wanted to make the world programmable, developers waiting for us to make an app for their thing of interest is a lot less efficient, less impactful than taking our tool chain and releasing that externally. And so, that's what RoboFlow became. RoboFlow became the internal tools that we used to make these game changing applications readily available. And as you know, when you give developers new tools, they create new billion dollar industries, let alone all sorts of fun hobbyist projects along the way. >> I love that story. Curious, inventive, little radical. Let's break the rules, see how we can push the envelope on the board games. That's how companies get started. It's a great story. I got to ask you, okay, what happens next? Now, okay, you realize this new tooling, but this is like how companies get built. Like they solve their own problem that they had 'cause they realized there's one, but then there has to be a market for it. So you actually guys knew that this was coming around the corner. So okay, you got your hacker mentality, you did that thing, you got the award and now you're like, okay, wow. Were you guys conscious of the wave coming? Was it one of those things where you said, look, if we do this, we solve our own problem, this will be big for everybody. Did you have that moment? Was that in 2019 or was that more of like, it kind of was obvious to you guys? >> Absolutely. I mean Brad puts this pretty effectively where he describes how we lived through the initial internet revolution, but we were kind of too young to really recognize and comprehend what was happening at the time. And then mobile happened and we were working on different companies that were not in the mobile space. And computer vision feels like the wave that we've caught. Like, this is a technology and capability that rewrites how we interact with the world, how everyone will interact with the world. And so we feel we've been kind of lucky this time, right place, right time of every enterprise will have the ability to improve their operations with computer vision. And so we've been very cognizant of the fact that computer vision is one of those groundbreaking technologies that every company will have as a part of their products and services and offerings, and we can provide the tooling to accelerate that future. >> Yeah, and the developer angle, by the way, I love that because I think, you know, as we've been saying in theCUBE all the time, developer's the new defacto standard bodies because what they adopt is pure, you know, meritocracy. And they pick the best. If it's sell service and it's good and it's got open source community around it, its all in. And they'll vote. They'll vote with their code and that is clear. Now I got to ask you, as you look at the market, we were just having this conversation on theCUBE in Barcelona at recent Mobile World Congress, now called MWC, around 5G versus wifi. And the debate was specifically computer vision, like facial recognition. We were talking about how the Cleveland Browns were using facial recognition for people coming into the stadium they were using it for ships in international ports. So the question was 5G versus wifi. My question is what infrastructure or what are the areas that need to be in place to make computer vision work? If you have developers building apps, apps got to run on stuff. So how do you sort that out in your mind? What's your reaction to that? >> A lot of the times when we see applications that need to run in real time and on video, they'll actually run at the edge without internet. And so a lot of our users will actually take their models and run it in a fully offline environment. Now to act on that information, you'll often need to have internet signal at some point 'cause you'll need to know how many people were in the stadium or what shipping crates are in my port at this point in time. You'll need to relay that information somewhere else, which will require connectivity. But actually using the model and creating the insights at the edge does not require internet. I mean we have users that deploy models on underwater submarines just as much as in outer space actually. And those are not very friendly environments to internet, let alone 5g. And so what you do is you use an edge device, like an Nvidia Jetson is common, mobile devices are common. Intel has some strong edge devices, the Movidius family of chips for example. And you use that compute that runs completely offline in real time to process those signals. Now again, what you do with those signals may require connectivity and that becomes a question of the problem you're solving of how soon you need to relay that information to another place. >> So, that's an architectural issue on the infrastructure. If you're a tactical edge war fighter for instance, you might want to have highly available and maybe high availability. I mean, these are words that mean something. You got storage, but it's not at the edge in real time. But you can trickle it back and pull it down. That's management. So that's more of a business by business decision or environment, right? >> That's right, that's right. Yeah. So I mean we can talk through some specifics. So for example, the RoboFlow actually powers the broadcaster that does the tennis ball tracking at Wimbledon. That runs completely at the edge in real time in, you know, technically to track the tennis ball and point the camera, you actually don't need internet. Now they do have internet of course to do the broadcasting and relay the signal and feeds and these sorts of things. And so that's a case where you have both edge deployment of running the model and high availability act on that model. We have other instances where customers will run their models on drones and the drone will go and do a flight and it'll say, you know, this many residential homes are in this given area, or this many cargo containers are in this given shipping yard. Or maybe we saw these environmental considerations of soil erosion along this riverbank. The model in that case can run on the drone during flight without internet, but then you only need internet once the drone lands and you're going to act on that information because for example, if you're doing like a study of soil erosion, you don't need to be real time. You just need to be able to process and make use of that information once the drone finishes its flight. >> Well I can imagine a zillion use cases. I heard of a use case interview at a company that does computer vision to help people see if anyone's jumping the fence on their company. Like, they know what a body looks like climbing a fence and they can spot it. Pretty easy use case compared to probably some of the other things, but this is the horizontal use cases, its so many use cases. So how do you guys talk to the marketplace when you say, hey, we have generative AI for commuter vision. You might know language models that's completely different animal because vision's like the world, right? So you got a lot more to do. What's the difference? How do you explain that to customers? What can I build and what's their reaction? >> Because we're such a developer centric company, developers are usually creative and show you the ways that they want to take advantage of new technologies. I mean, we've had people use things for identifying conveyor belt debris, doing gas leak detection, measuring the size of fish, airplane maintenance. We even had someone that like a hobby use case where they did like a specific sushi identifier. I dunno if you know this, but there's a specific type of whitefish that if you grew up in the western hemisphere and you eat it in the eastern hemisphere, you get very sick. And so there was someone that made an app that tells you if you happen to have that fish in the sushi that you're eating. But security camera analysis, transportation flows, plant disease detection, really, you know, smarter cities. We have people that are doing curb management identifying, and a lot of these use cases, the fantastic thing about building tools for developers is they're a creative bunch and they have these ideas that if you and I sat down for 15 minutes and said, let's guess every way computer vision can be used, we would need weeks to list all the example use cases. >> We'd miss everything. >> And we'd miss. And so having the community show us the ways that they're using computer vision is impactful. Now that said, there are of course commercial industries that have discovered the value and been able to be out of the gate. And that's where we have the Fortune 100 customers, like we do. Like the retail customers in the Walmart sector, healthcare providers like Medtronic, or vehicle manufacturers like Rivian who all have very difficult either supply chain, quality assurance, in stock, out of stock, anti-theft protection considerations that require successfully making sense of the real world. >> Let me ask you a question. This is maybe a little bit in the weeds, but it's more developer focused. What are some of the developer profiles that you're seeing right now in terms of low-hanging fruit applications? And can you talk about the academic impact? Because I imagine if I was in school right now, I'd be all over it. Are you seeing Master's thesis' being worked on with some of your stuff? Is the uptake in both areas of younger pre-graduates? And then inside the workforce, What are some of the devs like? Can you share just either what their makeup is, what they work on, give a little insight into the devs you're working with. >> Leading developers that want to be on state-of-the-art technology build with RoboFlow because they know they can use the best in class open source. They know that they can get the most out of their data. They know that they can deploy extremely quickly. That's true among students as you mentioned, just as much as as industries. So we welcome students and I mean, we have research grants that will regularly support for people to publish. I mean we actually have a channel inside our internal slack where every day, more student publications that cite building with RoboFlow pop up. And so, that helps inspire some of the use cases. Now what's interesting is that the use case is relatively, you know, useful or applicable for the business or the student. In other words, if a student does a thesis on how to do, we'll say like shingle damage detection from satellite imagery and they're just doing that as a master's thesis, in fact most insurance businesses would be interested in that sort of application. So, that's kind of how we see uptick and adoption both among researchers who want to be on the cutting edge and publish, both with RoboFlow and making use of open source tools in tandem with the tool that we provide, just as much as industry. And you know, I'm a big believer in the philosophy that kind of like what the hackers are doing nights and weekends, the Fortune 500 are doing in a pretty short order period of time and we're experiencing that transition. Computer vision used to be, you know, kind of like a PhD, multi-year investment endeavor. And now with some of the tooling that we're working on in open source technologies and the compute that's available, these science fiction ideas are possible in an afternoon. And so you have this idea of maybe doing asset management or the aerial observation of your shingles or things like this. You have a few hundred images and you can de-risk whether that's possible for your business today. So there's pretty broad-based adoption among both researchers that want to be on the state of the art, as much as companies that want to reduce the time to value. >> You know, Joseph, you guys and your partner have got a great front row seat, ground floor, presented creation wave here. I'm seeing a pattern emerging from all my conversations on theCUBE with founders that are successful, like yourselves, that there's two kind of real things going on. You got the enterprises grabbing the products and retrofitting into their legacy and rebuilding their business. And then you have startups coming out of the woodwork. Young, seeing greenfield or pick a specific niche or focus and making that the signature lever to move the market. >> That's right. >> So can you share your thoughts on the startup scene, other founders out there and talk about that? And then I have a couple questions for like the enterprises, the old school, the existing legacy. Little slower, but the startups are moving fast. What are some of the things you're seeing as startups are emerging in this field? >> I think you make a great point that independent of RoboFlow, very successful, especially developer focused businesses, kind of have three customer types. You have the startups and maybe like series A, series B startups that you're building a product as fast as you can to keep up with them, and they're really moving just as fast as as you are and pulling the product out at you for things that they need. The second segment that you have might be, call it SMB but not enterprise, who are able to purchase and aren't, you know, as fast of moving, but are stable and getting value and able to get to production. And then the third type is enterprise, and that's where you have typically larger contract value sizes, slower moving in terms of adoption and feedback for your product. And I think what you see is that successful companies balance having those three customer personas because you have the small startups, small fast moving upstarts that are discerning buyers who know the market and elect to build on tooling that is best in class. And so you basically kind of pass the smell test of companies who are quite discerning in their purchases, plus are moving so quick they're pulling their product out of you. Concurrently, you have a product that's enterprise ready to service the scalability, availability, and trust of enterprise buyers. And that's ultimately where a lot of companies will see tremendous commercial success. I mean I remember seeing the Twilio IPO, Uber being like a full 20% of their revenue, right? And so there's this very common pattern where you have the ability to find some of those upstarts that you make bets on, like the next Ubers of the world, the smaller companies that continue to get developed with the product and then the enterprise whom allows you to really fund the commercial success of the business, and validate the size of the opportunity in market that's being creative. >> It's interesting, there's so many things happening there. It's like, in a way it's a new category, but it's not a new category. It becomes a new category because of the capabilities, right? So, it's really interesting, 'cause that's what you're talking about is a category, creating. >> I think developer tools. So people often talk about B to B and B to C businesses. I think developer tools are in some ways a third way. I mean ultimately they're B to B, you're selling to other businesses and that's where your revenue's coming from. However, you look kind of like a B to C company in the ways that you measure product adoption and kind of go to market. In other words, you know, we're often tracking the leading indicators of commercial success in the form of usage, adoption, retention. Really consumer app, traditionally based metrics of how to know you're building the right stuff, and that's what product led growth companies do. And then you ultimately have commercial traction in a B to B way. And I think that that actually kind of looks like a third thing, right? Like you can do these sort of funny zany marketing examples that you might see historically from consumer businesses, but yet you ultimately make your money from the enterprise who has these de-risked high value problems you can solve for them. And I selfishly think that that's the best of both worlds because I don't have to be like Evan Spiegel, guessing the next consumer trend or maybe creating the next consumer trend and catching lightning in a bottle over and over again on the consumer side. But I still get to have fun in our marketing and make sort of fun, like we're launching the world's largest game of rock paper scissors being played with computer vision, right? Like that's sort of like a fun thing you can do, but then you can concurrently have the commercial validation and customers telling you the things that they need to be built for them next to solve commercial pain points for them. So I really do think that you're right by calling this a new category and it really is the best of both worlds. >> It's a great call out, it's a great call out. In fact, I always juggle with the VC. I'm like, it's so easy. Your job is so easy to pick the winners. What are you talking about its so easy? I go, just watch what the developers jump on. And it's not about who started, it could be someone in the dorm room to the boardroom person. You don't know because that B to C, the C, it's B to D you know? You know it's developer 'cause that's a human right? That's a consumer of the tool which influences the business that never was there before. So I think this direct business model evolution, whether it's media going direct or going direct to the developers rather than going to a gatekeeper, this is the reality. >> That's right. >> Well I got to ask you while we got some time left to describe, I want to get into this topic of multi-modality, okay? And can you describe what that means in computer vision? And what's the state of the growth of that portion of this piece? >> Multi modality refers to using multiple traditionally siloed problem types, meaning text, image, video, audio. So you could treat an audio problem as only processing audio signal. That is not multimodal, but you could use the audio signal at the same time as a video feed. Now you're talking about multi modality. In computer vision, multi modality is predominantly happening with images and text. And one of the biggest releases in this space is actually two years old now, was clip, contrastive language image pre-training, which took 400 million image text pairs and basically instead of previously when you do classification, you basically map every single image to a single class, right? Like here's a bunch of images of chairs, here's a bunch of images of dogs. What clip did is used, you can think about it like, the class for an image being the Instagram caption for the image. So it's not one single thing. And by training on understanding the corpora, you basically see which words, which concepts are associated with which pixels. And this opens up the aperture for the types of problems and generalizability of models. So what does this mean? This means that you can get to value more quickly from an existing trained model, or at least validate that what you want to tackle with a computer vision, you can get there more quickly. It also opens up the, I mean. Clip has been the bedrock of some of the generative image techniques that have come to bear, just as much as some of the LLMs. And increasingly we're going to see more and more of multi modality being a theme simply because at its core, you're including more context into what you're trying to understand about the world. I mean, in its most basic sense, you could ask yourself, if I have an image, can I know more about that image with just the pixels? Or if I have the image and the sound of when that image was captured or it had someone describe what they see in that image when the image was captured, which one's going to be able to get you more signal? And so multi modality helps expand the ability for us to understand signal processing. >> Awesome. And can you just real quick, define clip for the folks that don't know what that means? >> Yeah. Clip is a model architecture, it's an acronym for contrastive language image pre-training and like, you know, model architectures that have come before it captures the almost like, models are kind of like brands. So I guess it's a brand of a model where you've done these 400 million image text pairs to match up which visual concepts are associated with which text concepts. And there have been new releases of clip, just at bigger sizes of bigger encoding's, of longer strings of texture, or larger image windows. But it's been a really exciting advancement that OpenAI released in January, 2021. >> All right, well great stuff. We got a couple minutes left. Just I want to get into more of a company-specific question around culture. All startups have, you know, some sort of cultural vibe. You know, Intel has Moore's law doubles every whatever, six months. What's your culture like at RoboFlow? I mean, if you had to describe that culture, obviously love the hacking story, you and your partner with the games going number one on Product Hunt next to Elon and Tesla and then hey, we should start a company two years later. That's kind of like a curious, inventing, building, hard charging, but laid back. That's my take. How would you describe the culture? >> I think that you're right. The culture that we have is one of shipping, making things. So every week each team shares what they did for our customers on a weekly basis. And we have such a strong emphasis on being better week over week that those sorts of things compound. So one big emphasis in our culture is getting things done, shipping, doing things for our customers. The second is we're an incredibly transparent place to work. For example, how we think about giving decisions, where we're progressing against our goals, what problems are biggest and most important for the company is all open information for those that are inside the company to know and progress against. The third thing that I'd use to describe our culture is one that thrives with autonomy. So RoboFlow has a number of individuals who have founded companies before, some of which have sold their businesses for a hundred million plus upon exit. And the way that we've been able to attract talent like that is because the problems that we're tackling are so immense, yet individuals are able to charge at it with the way that they think is best. And this is what pairs well with transparency. If you have a strong sense of what the company's goals are, how we're progressing against it, and you have this ownership mentality of what can I do to change or drive progress against that given outcome, then you create a really healthy pairing of, okay cool, here's where the company's progressing. Here's where things are going really well, here's the places that we most need to improve and work on. And if you're inside that company as someone who has a preponderance to be a self-starter and even a history of building entire functions or companies yourself, then you're going to be a place where you can really thrive. You have the inputs of the things where we need to work on to progress the company's goals. And you have the background of someone that is just necessarily a fast moving and ambitious type of individual. So I think the best way to describe it is a transparent place with autonomy and an emphasis on getting things done. >> Getting shit done as they say. Getting stuff done. Great stuff. Hey, final question. Put a plug out there for the company. What are you going to hire? What's your pipeline look like for people? What jobs are open? I'm sure you got hiring all around. Give a quick plug for the company what you're looking for. >> I appreciate you asking. Basically you're either building the product or helping customers be successful with the product. So in the building product category, we have platform engineering roles, machine learning engineering roles, and we're solving some of the hardest and most impactful problems of bringing such a groundbreaking technology to the masses. And so it's a great place to be where you can kind of be your own user as an engineer. And then if you're enabling people to be successful with the products, I mean you're working in a place where there's already such a strong community around it and you can help shape, foster, cultivate, activate, and drive commercial success in that community. So those are roles that tend themselves to being those that build the product for developer advocacy, those that are account executives that are enabling our customers to realize commercial success, and even hybrid roles like we call it field engineering, where you are a technical resource to drive success within customer accounts. And so all this is listed on roboflow.com/careers. And one thing that I actually kind of want to mention John that's kind of novel about the thing that's working at RoboFlow. So there's been a lot of discussion around remote companies and there's been a lot of discussion around in-person companies and do you need to be in the office? And one thing that we've kind of recognized is you can actually chart a third way. You can create a third way which we call satellite, which basically means people can work from where they most like to work and there's clusters of people, regular onsite's. And at RoboFlow everyone gets, for example, $2,500 a year that they can use to spend on visiting coworkers. And so what's sort of organically happened is team numbers have started to pull together these resources and rent out like, lavish Airbnbs for like a week and then everyone kind of like descends in and works together for a week and makes and creates things. And we call this lighthouses because you know, a lighthouse kind of brings ships into harbor and we have an emphasis on shipping. >> Yeah, quality people that are creative and doers and builders. You give 'em some cash and let the self-governing begin, you know? And like, creativity goes through the roof. It's a great story. I think that sums up the culture right there, Joseph. Thanks for sharing that and thanks for this great conversation. I really appreciate it and it's very inspiring. Thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for having me, John. >> Joseph Nelson, co-founder and CEO of RoboFlow. Hot company, great culture in the right place in a hot area, computer vision. This is going to explode in value. The edge is exploding. More use cases, more development, and developers are driving the change. Check out RoboFlow. This is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to AWS Startup Showcase, I'm John Furrier, your host. This is the Hero panel, the AWS Heroes. These are folks that have a lot of experience in Open Source, having fun building great projects and commercializing the value and best practices of Open Source innovation. We've got some great guests here. Liz Rice, Chief Open Source Officer, Isovalent. CUBE alumni, great to see you. Brian LeRoux, who is the Co-founder and CTO of begin.com. Erica Windisch who's an Architect for Developer Experience. AWS Hero, also CUBE alumni. Casey Lee, CTO Gaggle. Doing some great stuff in ed tech. Great collection of experts and experienced folks doing some fun stuff, welcome to this conversation this CUBE panel. >> Hi. >> Thanks for having us. >> Hello. >> Let's go down the line. >> I don't normally do this, but since we're remote and we have such great guests, go down the line and talk about why Open Source is important to you guys. What projects are you currently working on? And what's the coolest thing going on there? Liz we'll start with you. >> Okay, so I am very involved in the world of Cloud Native. I'm the chair of the technical oversight committee for the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. So that means I get to see a lot of what's going on across a very broad range of Cloud Native projects. More specifically, Isovalent. I focus on Cilium, which is it's based on a technology called EBPF. That is to me, probably the most exciting technology right now. And then finally, I'm also involved in an organization called OpenUK, which is really pushing for more use of open technologies here in the United Kingdom. So spread around lots of different projects. And I'm in a really fortunate position, I think, to see what's happening with lots of projects and also the commercialization of lots of projects. >> Awesome, Brian what project are you working on? >> Working project these days called Architect. It's a Open Source project built on top of AWSM. It adds a lot of sugar and terseness to the SM experience and just makes it a lot easier to work with and get started. AWS can be a little bit intimidating to people at times. And the Open Source community is stepping up to make some of that bond ramp a little bit easier. And I'm also an Apache member. And so I keep a hairy eyeball on what's going on in that reality all the time. And I've been doing this open-source thing for quite a while, and yeah, I love it. It's a great thing. It's real science. We get to verify each other's work and we get to expand and build on human knowledge. So that's a huge honor to just even be able to do that and I feel stoked to be here so thanks for having me. >> Awesome, yeah, and totally great. Erica, what's your current situation going on here? What's happening? >> Sure, so I am currently working on developer experience of a number of Open Source STKS and CLI components from my current employer. And previously, recently I left New Relic where I was working on integrating with OpenTelemetry, as well as a number of other things. Before that I was a maintainer of Docker and of OpenStack. So I've been in this game for a while as well. And I tend to just put my fingers in a lot of little pies anywhere from DVD players 20 years ago to a lot of this open telemetry and monitoring and various STKs and developer tools is where like Docker and OpenStack and the STKs that I work on now, all very much focusing on developer as the user. >> Yeah, you're always on the wave, Erica great stuff. Casey, what's going on? Do you got some great ed techs happening? What's happening with you? >> Yeah, sure. The primary Open Source project that I'm contributing to right now is ACT. This is a tool I created a couple of years back when GitHub Actions first came out, and my motivation there was I'm just impatient. And that whole commit, push, wait time where you're testing out your pipelines is painful. And so I wanted to build a tool that allowed developers to test out their GitHub Actions workflows locally. And so this tool uses Docker containers to emulate, to get up action environment and gives you fast feedback on those workflows that you're building. Lot of innovation happening at GitHub. And so we're just trying to keep up and continue to replicate those new features functionalities in the local runner. And the biggest challenge I've had with this project is just keeping up with the community. We just passed 20,000 stars, and it'd be it's a normal week to get like 10 PRs. So super excited to announce just yesterday, actually I invited four of the most active contributors to help me with maintaining the project. And so this is like a big deal for me, letting the project go and bringing other people in to help lead it. So, yeah, huge shout out to those folks that have been helping with driving that project. So looking forward to what's next for it. >> Great, we'll make sure the SiliconANGLE riders catch that quote there. Great call out. Let's start, Brian, you made me realize when you mentioned Apache and then you've been watching all the stuff going on, it brings up the question of the evolution of Open Source, and the commercialization trends have been very interesting these days. You're seeing CloudScale really impact also with the growth of code. And Liz, if you remember, the Linux Foundation keeps making projections and they keep blowing past them every year on more and more code and more and more entrance coming in, not just individuals, corporations. So you starting to see Netflix donates something, you got Lyft donate some stuff, becomes a project company forms around it. There's a lot of entrepreneurial activity that's creating this new abstraction layers, new platforms, not just tools. So you start to see a new kickup trajectory with Open Source. You guys want to comment on this because this is going to impact how fast the enterprise will see value here. >> I think a really great example of that is a project called Backstage that's just come out of Spotify. And it's going through the incubation process at the CNCF. And that's why it's front of mind for me right now, 'cause I've been working on the due diligence for that. And the reason why I thought it was interesting in relation to your question is it's spun out of Spotify. It's fully Open Source. They have a ton of different enterprises using it as this developer portal, but they're starting to see some startups emerging offering like a hosted managed version of Backstage or offering services around Backstage or offering commercial plugins into Backstage. And I think it's really fascinating to see those ecosystems building up around a project and different ways that people can. I'm a big believer. You cannot sell the Open Source code, but you can sell other things that create value around Open Source projects. So that's really exciting to see. >> Great point. Anyone else want to weigh in and react to that? Because it's the new model. It's not the old way. I mean, I remember when I was in college, we had the Pirate software. Open Source wasn't around. So you had to deal under the table. Now it's free. But I mean the old way was you had to convince the enterprise, like you've got a hard knit, it builds the community and the community manage the quality of the code. And then you had to build the company to make sure they could support it. Now the companies are actually involved in it, right? And then new startups are forming faster. And the proof points are shorter and highly accelerated for that. I mean, it's a whole new- >> It's a Cambrian explosion, and it's great. It's one of those things that it's challenging for the new developers because they come in and they're like, "Whoa, what is all this stuff that I'm supposed to figure out?" And there's no right answer and there's no wrong answer. There's just tons of it. And I think that there's a desire for us to have one sort of well-known trot and happy path, that audience we're a lot better with a more diverse community, with lots of options, with lots of ways to approach these problems. And I think it's just great. A challenge that we have with all these options and all these Cambrian explosion of projects and all these competing ideas, right now, the sustainability, it's a bit of a tricky question to answer. We know that there's a commercialization aspect that helps us fund these projects, but how we compose the open versus the commercial source is still a bit of a tricky question and a tough one for a lot of folks. >> Erica, would you chime in on that for a second. I want to get your angle on that, this experience and all this code, and I'm a new person, I'm an existing person. Do I get like a blue check mark and verify? I mean, these are questions like, well, how do you navigate? >> Yeah, I think this has been something happening for a while. I mean, back in the early OpenStack days, 2010, for instance, Rackspace Open Sourcing, OpenStack and ANSU Labs and so forth, and then trying, having all these companies forming in creating startups around this. I started at a company called Cloudccaling back in late 2010, and we had some competitors such as Piston and so forth where a lot of the ANSUL Labs people went. But then, the real winners, I think from OpenStack ended up being the enterprises that jumped in. We had Red Hat in particular, as well as HP and IBM jumping in and investing in OpenStack, and really proving out a lot of... not that it was the first time, but this is when we started seeing billions of dollars pouring into Open Source projects and Open Source Foundations, such as the OpenStack Foundation, which proceeded a lot of the things that we now see with the Linux Foundation, which was then created a little bit later. And at the same time, I'm also reflecting a little bit what Brian said because there are projects that don't get funded, that don't get the same attention, but they're also getting used quite significantly. Things like Log4j really bringing this to the spotlight in terms of projects that are used everywhere by everything with significant outsized impacts on the industry that are not getting funded, that aren't flashy enough, that aren't exciting enough because it's just logging, but a vulnerability in it brings every everything and everybody down and has possibly billions of dollars of impact to our industry because nobody wanted to fund this project. >> I think that brings up the commercialization point about maybe bringing a venture capital model in saying, "Hey, that boring little logging thing could be a key ingredient for say solving some observability problems so I think let's put some cash." Again then we'd never seen that before. Now you're starting to see that kind of a real smart investment thesis going into Open Source projects. I mean, Promethease, Crafter, these are projects that turned off companies. This is turning up companies. >> A decade ago, there was no money in Dev tools that I think that's been fully debunked now. They used to be a concept that the venture community believed, but there's just too much evidence to the contrary, the companies like Cash Court, Datadog, the list goes on and on. I think the challenge for the Open Source (indistinct) comes back to foundations and working (indistinct) these developers make this code safe and secure. >> Casey, what's your reaction to all of this? You've got, so a project has gained some traction, got some momentum. There's a lot of mission critical. I won't say white spaces, but the opportunities in the big cloud game happening. And there's a lot of, I won't say too many entrepreneurial, but there's a lot of community action happening that's precommercialization that's getting traction. How does this all develop naturally and then vector in quickly when it hits? >> Yeah, I want to go back to the Log4j topic real quick. I think that it's a great example of an area that we need to do better at. And there was a cool article that Rob Pike wrote describing how to quantify the criticality. I think that's sort of quantifying criticality was the article he wrote on how to use metrics, to determine how valuable, how important a piece of Open Source is to the community. And we really need to highlight that more. We need a way to make it more clear how important this software is, how many people depend on it and how many people are contributing to it. And because right now we all do that. Like if I'm going to evaluate an Open Source software, sure, I'll look at how many stars it has and how many contributors it has. But I got to go through and do all that work myself and come up with. It would be really great if we had an agreed upon method for ranking the criticality of software, but then also the risk, hey, that this is used by a ton of people, but nobody's contributing to it anymore. That's a concern. And that would be great to potential users of that to signal whether or not it makes sense. The Open Source Security Foundation, just getting off the ground, they're doing some work in this space, and I'm really excited to see where they go with that looking at ways to stop score critically. >> Well, this brings up a good point while we've got everyone here, let's take a plug and plug a project you think that's not getting the visibility it needs. Let's go through each of you, point out a project that you think people should be looking at and talking about that might get some free visibility here. Anyone want to highlight projects they think should be focused more on, or that needs a little bit of love? >> I think, I mean, particularly if we're talking about these sort of vulnerability issues, there's a ton of work going on, like in the Secure Software Foundation, other foundations, I think there's work going on in Apache somewhere as well around the bill of material, the software bill of materials, the Secure Software supply chain security, even enumerating your dependencies is not trivial today. So I think there's going to be a ton of people doing really good work on that, as well as the criticality aspect. It's all like that. There's a really great xkcd cartoon with your software project and some really big monolithic lumps. And then, this tiny little piece in a very important point that's maintained by somebody in his bedroom in Montana or something and if you called it out. >> Yeah, you just opened where the next lightening and a bottle comes from. And this is I think the beauty of Open Source is that you get a little collaboration, you get three feet in a cloud of dust going and you get some momentum, and if it's relevant, it rises to the top. I think that's the collective intelligence of Open Source. The question I want to ask that the panel here is when you go into an enterprise, and now that the game is changing with a much more collaborative and involved, what's the story if they say, hey, what's in it for me, how do I manage the Open Source? What's the current best practice? Because there's no doubt I can't ignore it. It's in everything we do. How do I organize around it? How do I build around it to be more efficient and more productive and reduce the risk on vulnerabilities to managing staff, making sure the right teams in place, the right agility and all those things? >> You called it, they got to get skin in the game. They need to be active and involved and donating to a sustainable Open Source project is a great way to start. But if you really want to be active, then you should be committing. You should have a goal for your organization to be contributing back to that project. Maybe not committing code, it could be committing resources into the darks or in the tests, or even tweeting about an Open Source project is contributing to it. And I think a lot of these enterprises could benefit a lot from getting more active with the Open Source Foundations that are out there. >> Liz, you've been actively involved. I know we've talked personally when the CNCF started, which had a great commercial uptake from companies. What do you think the current state-of-the-art kind of equation is has it changed a little bit? Or is it the game still the same? >> Yeah, and in the early days of the CNCF, it was very much dominated by vendors behind the project. And now we're seeing more and more membership from end-user companies, the kind of enterprises that are building their businesses on Cloud Native, but their business is not in itself. That's not there. The infrastructure is not their business. And I think seeing those companies, putting money in, putting time in, as Brian says contributing resources quite often, there's enough money, but finding the talent to do the work and finding people who are prepared to actually chop the wood and carry the water, >> Exactly. >> that it's hard. >> And if enterprises can find peoples to spend time on Open Source projects, help with those chores, it's hugely valuable. And it's one of those the rising tide floats all the boats. We can raise security, we can reduce the amount of dependency on maintain projects collectively. >> I think the business models there, I think one of the things I'll react to and then get your guys' comments is remember which CubeCon it was, it was one of the early ones. And I remember seeing Apple having a booth, but nobody was manning. It was just an Apple booth. They weren't doing anything, but they were recruiting. And I think you saw the transition of a business model where the worry about a big vendor taking over a project and having undue influence over it goes away because I think this idea of participation is also talent, but also committing that talent back into the communities as a model, as a business model, like, okay, hire some great people, but listen, don't screw up the Open Source piece of it 'cause that's a critical. >> Also hire a channel, right? They can use those contributions to source that talent and build the reputation in the communities that they depend on. And so there's really a lot of benefit to the larger organizations that can do this. They'll have a huge pipeline of really qualified engineers right out the gate without having to resort to cheesy whiteboard interviews, which is pretty great. >> Yeah, I agree with a lot of this. One of my concerns is that a lot of these corporations tend to focus very narrowly on certain projects, which they feel that they depend greatly, they'll invest in OpenStack, they'll invest in Docker, they'll invest in some of the CNCF projects. And then these other projects get ignored. Something that I've been a proponent of for a little bit for a while is observability of your dependencies. And I don't think there's quite enough projects and solutions to this. And it sounds maybe from lists, there are some projects that I don't know about, but I also know that there's some startups like Snyk and so forth that help with a little bit of this problem, but I think we need more focus on some of these edges. And I think companies need to do better, both in providing, having some sort of solution for observability of the dependencies, as well as understanding those dependencies and managing them. I've seen companies for instance, depending on software that they actively don't want to use based on a certain criteria that they already set projects, like they'll set a requirement that any project that they use has a code of conduct, but they'll then use projects that don't have codes of conduct. And if they don't have a code of conduct, then employees are prohibited from working on those projects. So you've locked yourself into a place where you're depending on software that you have instructed, your employees are not allowed to contribute to, for certain legal and other reasons. So you need to draw a line in the sand and then recognize that those projects are ones that you don't want to consume, and then not use them, and have observability around these things. >> That's a great point. I think we have 10 minutes left. I want to just shift to a topic that I think is relevant. And that is as Open Source software, software, people develop software, you see under the hood kind of software, SREs developing very quickly in the CloudScale, but also you've got your classic software developers who were writing code. So you have supply chain, software supply chain challenges. You mentioned developer experience around how to code. You have now automation in place. So you've got the development of all these things that are happening. Like I just want to write software. Some people want to get and do infrastructure as code so DevSecOps is here. So how does that look like going forward? How has the future of Open Source going to make the developers just want to code quickly? And the folks who want to tweak the infrastructure a bit more efficient, any views on that? >> At Gaggle, we're using AWS' CDK, exclusively for our infrastructure as code. And it's a great transition for developers instead of writing Yammel or Jason, or even HCL for their infrastructure code, now they're writing code in the language that they're used to Python or JavaScript, and what that's providing is an easier transition for developers into that Infrastructure as code at Gaggle here, but it's also providing an opportunity to provide reusable constructs that some Devs can build on. So if we've got a very opinionated way to deploy a serverless app in a database and do auto-scaling behind and all stuff, we can present that to a developer as a library, and they can just consume it as it is. Maybe that's as deep as they want to go and they're happy with that. But then they want to go deeper into it, they can either use some of the lower level constructs or create PRs to the platform team to have those constructs changed to fit their needs. So it provides a nice on-ramp developers to use the tools and languages they're used to, and then also go deeper as they need. >> That's awesome. Does that mean they're not full stack developers anymore that they're half stack developers they're taking care of for them? >> I don't know either. >> We'll in. >> No, only kidding. Anyway, any other reactions to this whole? I just want to code, make it easy for me, and some people want to get down and dirty under the hood. >> So I think that for me, Docker was always a key part of this. I don't know when DevSecOps was coined exactly, but I was talking with people about it back in 2012. And when I joined Docker, it was a part of that vision for me, was that Docker was applying these security principles by default for your application. It wasn't, I mean, yes, everybody adopted because of the portability and the acceleration of development, but it was for me, the fact that it was limiting what you could do from a security angle by default, and then giving you these tuna balls that you can control it further. You asked about a project that may not get enough recognition is something called DockerSlim, which is designed to optimize your containers and will make them smaller, but it also constraints the security footprint, and we'll remove capabilities from the container. It will help you build security profiles for app armor and the Red Hat one. SELinux. >> SELinux. >> Yeah, and this is something that I think a lot of developers, it's kind of outside of the realm of things that they're really thinking about. So the more that we can automate those processes and make it easier out of the box for users or for... when I say users, I mean, developers, so that it's straightforward and automatic and also giving them the capability of refining it and tuning it as needed, or simply choosing platforms like serverless offerings, which have these security constraints built in out of the box and sometimes maybe less tuneable, but very strong by default. And I think that's a good place for us to be is where we just enforced these things and make you do things in a secure way. >> Yeah, I'm a huge fan of Kubernetes, but it's not the right hammer for every nail. And there are absolutely tons of applications that are better served by something like Lambda where a lot more of that security surface is taken care of for the developer. And I think we will see better tooling around security profiling and making it easier to shrink wrap your applications that there are plenty of products out there that can help you with this in a cloud native environment. But I think for the smaller developer let's say, or an earlier stage company, yeah, it needs to be so much more straightforward. Really does. >> Really an interesting time, 10 years ago, when I was working at Adobe, we used to requisition all these analysts to tell us how many developers there were for the market. And we thought there was about 20 million developers. If GitHub's to be believed, we think there is now around 80 million developers. So both these groups are probably wrong in their numbers, but the takeaway here for me is that we've got a lot of new developers and a lot of these new developers are really struck by a paradox of choice. And they're typically starting on the front end. And so there's a lot of movement in the stack moved towards the front end. We saw that at re:Invent when Amazon was really pushing Amplify 'cause they're seeing this too. It's interesting because this is where folks start. And so a lot of the obstructions are moving in that direction, but maybe not always necessarily totally appropriate. And so finding the right balance for folks is still a work in progress. Like Lambda is a great example. It lets me focus totally on just business logic. I don't have to think about infrastructure pretty much at all. And if I'm newer to the industry, that makes a lot of sense to me. As use cases expand, all of a sudden, reality intervenes, and it might not be appropriate for everything. And so figuring out what those edges are, is still the challenge, I think. >> All right, thank you very much for coming on the CUBE here panel. AWS Heroes, thanks everyone for coming. I really appreciate it, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay. >> Thanks for having me. >> Okay, that's a wrap here back to the program and the awesome startups. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban cloud brought to you by Silicon Angle. Hi, I'm stupid, man. And welcome back to the Cube on Cloud. We're talking about developers. And while so many people remember the mean from 2010 of Steve Balmer jumping around on stage development developers and developers, uh, many people know what really important is really important about developers. They probably read the 2013 book called The New King Makers by Stephen O. Grady. And I'm really happy to welcome to the program. Rachel Stevens, who is an industry analyst with Red Monk who was co founded by the aforementioned Stephen O. Grady. Rachel, Great to see you. Thank you so much for joining us. >>Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. >>Well, I've had the opportunity, Thio read some of what you've done. We've interacted on social media. We've got to talk events back when we used to do those in people. And >>I'm so >>glad that you get to come on the program especially. You were the ones I reached out. When we have this developer track, um, if you could just give our audience a little bit about your background. You know, that developer cred that you have Because as I joke, I've got a closet full of hoodies. But, you know, I'm an infrastructure guy by training I've been learning about, you know, containers and serverless and all this stuff for years. But I'm not myself much of developer. I've touched a thing or two in the years. >>Yeah. So happy to be here. Red Monk has been around since 2002 and have kind of been beating that developer drum ever since then, kind of as the company, The founder, Stephen James, notice that the decision making that developers was really a driver for what was actually ending up in the Enterprise. And as even more true, as cloud came onto, the scene is open source exploded, and I think it's become a lot more of a common view now. But in those early days, it was probably a little bit more of a controversial opinion, but I have been with the firm for coming up on five years now. My work is an industry analyst. We kind of help people understand, bottoms up technology, adoption trends, so that that's where I spend my time focusing is what's getting used in the enterprise. Why, what kind of trends are happening? So, yeah, that's where we all come from. That's the history of Red Monk in 30 seconds. >>Awesome. Rachel, you talk about the enterprise and developers For the longest time. I just said there was this huge gap you talk about. Bottoms up. It's like, well, developers use the tools that they want If they don't have to, they don't pay for anything. And the general I t. And the business sides of the house were like, I don't know, We don't know what those people in the corner we're doing, you know, it's important and things like that. But today it feels like that that's closed a bunch. Where are we? In your estimation, you know, our developers do they have a clear seat at the table? The title we have for this is whether the Enterprise Developer is its enterprise development oxymoron. In 2020 and 2021 >>I think enterprise developers have a lot more practical authority than people give them credit for, especially if you're kind of looking at that old view of the world where everything is driven by a buyer decision or kind of this top down purchasing motion. And we've really seen that authority of what is getting used and why change a lot in the last year. In the last decade, even more of people who are able to choose the tools that meet the job bring in tools, regardless of whether they maybe have that official approval through the right channels because of the convenience of trying to get things up and running. We are asking developers to do so much right now and to go faster and thio shifting things left. And so the things that they are responsible for incorporating into the way they are building APS is growing. And so, as we are asking developers to do more and to do more quickly, um, the tools that they need to do those, um, tasks to get these APS built is that the decision making us fall into them? This is what I need. This is what needs to come in, and so we're seeing. Basically, the tools that enterprise is air using are the tools that developers want to be using, and they kind of just find their way into the enterprise. >>Now I want to key off what you were talking about. Just developers were being asked to do Mawr and Mawr. We've seen these pendulum swings in technology. There was a time where it was like, Well, I'll outsource it because that'll be easier and maybe it'll be less expensive. And number one we found it necessarily. It wasn't necessarily cheaper. And number two, I couldn't make changes, and I didn't understand what was happening. So when when I talked to Enterprises today, absolutely. I need to have skills that's internally. I need to be able to respond to things fast, and therefore I need skills that I need people that can build what they have. What what do you see? What are those skill sets that are so important today? Uh, you know, we've talked so many times over the years is to you know, there's there's the skills gap. We don't have enough data scientists. We don't have enough developers way. We don't have any of these things. So what do we have and where things trending? >>Yeah, it's It's one of those things for developers where they both have probably the most full tool set that we've seen in this industry in terms of things that are available to them. But it's also really hard because it also indicates that there is just this fragmentation at every level of the stack. And there's this explosion of choice and decisions that is happening up and down the stack of how are we going to build things? And so it's really tricky to be a developer these days and that you are making a lot of decisions and you are wiring a lot of things together and you have to be able to navigate a lot of things. E think. One of the things that is interesting here is that we have seen the phrase like Full stack developer really carried a lot of panache, maybe earlier this decade and has kind of fallen away. Just because we've realized that it's impossible for anybody to be ableto spanned this whole broad spectrum of all of the things we're asking people to dio. So we're seeing this explosion of choice, which is meaning that there is a little bit more focused and where developers are trying to actually figure out what is my niche. What is it that I'm supposed to focus on. And so it's really just this balancing of act of trying to see this big picture of how to get this all put together and also have this focused area realizing that you have to specialize at some point. >>Rachel is such a great point there. We've actually seen that Cambrian explosion of developer tools that are out there. If you go to the CFCF landscape and look at everything out there or goto any of your public cloud providers, there's no way that anybody even working for those companies no good portion of the tools that are out there so nobody could be a master of everything. How about from a cloud standpoint, you know, there is the discussion of, you know what do I shift? Left What? You know, Can I just say, Okay, this piece of it, it could be a manage service. I don't need to think about it versus what skills that I need to have in house. What is it that's important. And obviously, you know, a zoo analyst. We know it varies greatly across companies, but you know what? What are some of those top things that we need to make sure that enterprises have skill set and the tools in house that they should understand. And what can they push off to their platform of choice? >>Yeah, I think your comment about managed services is really pressing because one of the trends that we're watching closely, it's just this rise of manage services. And it kind of ties back into the concept you had before about like, what an I team. That's they have, like the Nicholas Carr. I t doesn't matter, and we're pushing this all the way. And then we realized, Oh, we've got to bring that all back. Um, but we also realize that we really want as enterprises want to be spending our time doing differentiated work and wiring together, your entire infrastructure isn't necessarily differentiated for a lot of companies. And so it's trying to find this mix of where can I push my abstraction higher or to find a manage service that can do something for me? And we're seeing that happen in all levels of the stack. And so what we're seeing is this rise of composite APS where we're going to say, Okay, I'm gonna pull in back end AP ice from a whole bunch of tools like twilio or stripe or all zero where algo Leah, all of those things are great tools that I can incorporate into my app. And I can have this great user, um, interface that I can use. And then I don't have to worry quite so much about building it all myself. But I am responsible for wiring at all together. So I think it's that wire together set of interest that is happening for developers as the tool set that they are spending a lot of time with. So we see the manage services being important. Um played an important role in how absent composed, and it's the composition of that APs that is happening internally. >>What one of the one of the regular research items that I see a red monk is you know what languages you know. Where are the trends going? There's been relative stability, but then something's changed. You know, I look at the tools that you mentioned Full stack developer. I talked to a full stack developer a couple of years ago, and he's like like like terror form is my life and I love everything and I've used it forever. And that was 18 months, Andi. I kind of laugh because it's like, OK, I managed. I measure a lot of the technology that I used in the decades. Um, not that await. This came out six months ago and it's kind of mature. And of course, you know, C I C d. Come on. If it's six weeks old, it's probably gone through a lot of generations. So what do you see? Do you have any research that you can share as to looking forward? What are the You know what the skill sets we need? How should we be training our force? What do >>we need to >>be looking at in this kind of next decade of cloud? >>Yeah. So when when you spoke about languages, we dio a semi annual review of language usage as a sign on get hub and in discussion as seen on stack overflow, which we fully recognize is not a perfect representation of how these languages are used in the broader world. But those air data sets that we have access to that are relatively large and open eso just before anyone writes me angry letters that that's not the way that we should be doing it, Um, but one of the things that we've seen over time is that there is a lot of relative stability in those top tier languages in terms of how they are used, and there's some movement at the bottom. But the trends we're seeing where the languages are moving is type safety and having a safer language and the communities that are building upon other communities. So things like, um, we're seeing Scotland that is able to kind of piggyback off of being a jvm based language and having that support from Google. Or we're seeing typescript where it can piggyback off of the breath of deployment of JavaScript, things like that. So those things where were combining together multiple trends that developers are interested in the same time combined with an ecosystem that's already rich and full. And so we're seeing that there's definitely still movement in languages that people are interested in, but also, language on its own is probably pretty stable. So, like as you start to make language choices as a developer, that's not where we're seeing a ton of like turnover language frameworks on the other hand, like if you're a JavaScript developer and all of a sudden there's just explosion of frameworks that you need to choose from, that may be a different story, a lot more turnover there and harder to predict. But language trends are a little bit more stable over >>time, changing over time. You know, Boy, I I got to dig into, you know, relatively Recently I went down like the jam stack. Uh, ecosystem. I've been digging into a serverless for a number of years. What's your take on that? There's certain people. I talked to him. They're like, I don't even need to be a code. Or I could be a marketing person. And I can get things done when I talked to some developers there like a citizen developers. They're not developers. Come on, you know, I really need to be able to do this, so I'll give you your choices, toe. You know, serverless and some of these trends to kind of ext fan. You know who can you know? Code and development. >>Yeah. So for both translate jam stack and serve Ellis, One of the things that we see kind of early in the iteration of a technology is that it is definitely not going to be the right tool for every app. And the number of APS that they approach will fit for will grow as the tool develops. And you add more functionality over time and all of these platforms expand the capability, but definitely not the correct tool choice in every case. That said, we do watch both of those areas with extreme interest in terms of what this next generation of APS can look like and probably will look like in a lot of cases. And I think that it is super interesting to think about who gets to build these APs, because I e. I think one of the things that we probably haven't landed on the right language yet is what that what we should call these people because I don't think anyone associates themselves as a low code person. Like if you're someone from marketing and all of a sudden you can build something technical, that's really cool, and you're excited about that. Nobody else on your team could build. You're not walking around saying I am a low code marketing person like that, that that's that's that's demeaning. Like you're like. No, I'm technical. I'm a technical market, or look what I just did. And if you're someone who codes professionally for a living like and you use a low code tool to get something out the door quickly and >>you don't >>wanna demean and said, Oh, that was I did a low code that just like everybody, is just trying to solve problems. And everybody, um, is trying to figure out how to do things in the most effective way possible and making trade offs all the time. And so I don't think that the language of low code really is anything that resonates with any of the actual users of low code tools. And so I think that's something that we as an industry need toe work on finding the correct language because it doesn't feel like we've landed there yet. >>Yeah, Rachel, what? Want to get your take on just careers for developers now to think about in 2020 everyone is distributed. Lots of conversations about where we work. Can we bring the remote? Many of the developers I talked to already were remote. I had the chance that interview that the head of remote. Forget lab. They're over 1000 people and they're fully remote. So, you know, remote. Absolutely a thing for developers. But if you talk about careers, it is no longer, you know. Oh, hey, here's my CV. It's I'm on git Hub. You can see the code I've done. We haven't talked about open source yet, so give us your take on kind of developers today. Career paths. Andi. Kind of the the online community there. >>Yeah, this could be a whole own conversation. We'll try to figure out my points. Um, so I think one of the things that we are trying to figure out in terms of balance is how much are we expecting people to have done on the side? It's like a side project Hustle versus doing, exclusively getting your job done and not worrying too much about how many green squares you have on your get hub profile. And I think it's a really emotional and fraught discussion and a lot of quarters because it can be exclusionary for people saying that you you need to be spending your time on the side working on this open source project because there are people who have very different life circumstances, like if you're someone who already has kids or you're doing elder care or you are working another job and trying to transition into becoming a developer, it's a lot to ask. These people toe also have a side hustle. That said, it is probably working on open source, having an understanding of how tools are done. Having this, um, this experience and skills that you can point to and contributions you can point Teoh is probably one of the cleaner ways that you can start to move in the industry and break through to the industry because you can show your skills two other employers you can kind of maybe make your way in is a junior developer because you worked on a project and you make those connections. And so it's really still again. It's one of those balancing act things where there's not a perfect answer because there really is to correct sides of this argument. And both of those things are true. At the same time where it's it's hard to figure out what that early career path maybe looks like, or even advancing in a career path If you're already a developer, it's It's tricky. >>Well, I want to get your take on something to you know, I think back to you know, I go back a decade or two I started working with about 20 years ago. Back in the crazy days were just Colonel Daughter Warg and, you know, patches everywhere and lots of different companies trying to figure out what they would be doing on most of the people contributing to the free software before we're calling it open source. Most of the time, it was their side Hustle was the thing they're doing. What was their passion? Project? I've seen some research in the last year or so that says the majority of people that are contributing to open source are doing it for their day job. Obviously, there's a lot of big companies. There's plenty of small companies. When I goto the Linux Foundation shows. I mean, you've got whole companies that are you know, that that's their whole business. So I want to get your take on, you know, you know, governance, you know, contribution from the individual versus companies. You know, there's a lot of change going on there. The public cloud their impact on what's happening open source. What are you seeing there? And you know what's good? What's bad? What do we need to do better as a community? >>Yeah. E think the governance of open source projects is definitely a live conversation that we're having right now about what does this need to look like? What role do companies need to be having and how things are put together is a contribution or leadership position in the name of the individual or the name of the company. Like all of these air live conversations that are ongoing and a lot of communities e think one of the things that is interesting overall, though, is just watching if you're if you're taking a really zoomed out view of what open source looks like where it was at one point, um, deemed a cancer by one of the vendors in the space, and now it is something that is just absolutely an inherent part of most well tech vendors and and users is an important part of how they are building and using software today, like open source is really an integral tool. And what is happening in the enterprise and what's being built in the enterprise. And so I think that it is a natural thing that this conversation is evolving in terms of what is the enterprises role here and how are we supposed to govern for that? And e don't think that we have landed on all the correct answers yet. But I think that just looking at that long view, it makes sense that this is an area where we are spending some time focusing >>So Rachel without giving away state secrets. We know read Monk, you do lots of consulting out there. What advice do you give to the industry? We said we're making progress. There's good things there. But if we say okay, I wanna at 2030 look back and say, Boy, this is wonderful for developers. You know, everything is going good. What things have we done along the way? Where have we made progress? >>Yeah, I think I think it kind of ties back to the earlier discussion we were having around composite APS and thinking about what that developer experience looks like. I think that right now it is incredibly difficult for developers to be wiring everything together and There's just so much for developers to dio to actually get all of these APs from source to production. So when we talk with our customers, a lot of our time is spent thinking, How can you not only solve this individual piece of the puzzle, but how can you figure out how to fit it into this broader picture of what it is the developers air trying to accomplish? How can you think about where your ATF, It's not on your tool or you your project? Whatever it is that you are working on, how does this fit? Not only in terms of your one unique problem space, but where does this problem space fit in the broader landscape? Because I think that's going to be a really key element of what the developer experience looks like in the next decade. Is trying to help people actually get everything wired together in a coherent way. >>Rachel. No shortage of work to do there really appreciate you joining us. Thrilled to have you finally as a cube. Alumni. Thanks so much for joining. >>Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. >>All right. Thank you for joining us. This is the developer content for the cube on cloud, I'm stew minimum, and as always, thank you for watching the Cube.

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS, and our community partners. >>Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the cubes. Virtual coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 it's virtual this year because of the pandemic. We're not there in person and in real life, we're remote. I'm John for a year hosting the cube or the cube virtual. Um, as we continue to cover the three weeks of AWS reinvent and analyze the keynotes, we bring it in, uh, from our Cuban alumni, uh, network experts. And we have here great guest, Steve Malaney, CEO of Ava Trex, industry executive legend, former entrepreneur had done startups, um, been very, very successful with luminary and Silicon Valley, um, Palo Alto networks and the Sierra Cisco, I me, all the companies you've worked for. Um, Steve, great to see you again. >>Oh yeah. Hey awesome. Even if it's just virtual, John's great to be back in the cube. >>Okay, Steve, what's up? Am I muted? I got you. Okay. >>Gotcha. Oh, okay. I just said it's great. They're great to be back in the cube. >>I had to shut up my volume, got to love live cube TV. Um, I wanted to bring you on, because one, we've been talking with you guys and your company that you're now heading. You came off the board to take the helm of Ava tricks. You really saw the vision early on before the pandemic. We were actually, we did a hybrid event with you guys, a digital hybrid and your vision of multi-cloud and hybrid was pretty much in line with what Andy Jassy. And Amazon's now rolling out, except they're not calling it. Multi-cloud, they're just saying hybrid. But when you factor in the edge, the complexity there, you're really talking multiple environments. So I want to get your take, as you look at what Amazon has done in their announcements, they're continuing to power long. What's your analysis. What's your industry take? >>Yeah, I, I think it's, uh, you know, I think it's great. I think, you know, when we were a year ago, it was just a little over a year ago, we were at a multi-cloud conference and I think people kind of thought, wow, is multicloud something that the vendors are wanting to happen because they don't want to be killed by AWS. And you know, I mean, I saw this two years ago, I call it the Cambridge and explosion to cloud where every enterprise to we are now going to move to cloud. And they had been talking about it for six or seven years, but they didn't really mean it. And two years ago I saw they meant it and I knew what was going to happen. It was going to go multi-cloud they we're going to care about day two operations, visibility, control, security, all the things that enterprises care about. And I think, um, you know, what we've seen really over the last year is AWS and all the other cloud providers recognizing this, that the world is going multicloud. Um, and day two operations matter. You've gotta be able to operationalize this and enterprises. Can't just, it's not just about wiring it and building it up. You got do, you can operate it. And so that's, I think the thing that's really interesting is the maturity of the messaging. I would say from AWS to recognize, um, where enterprises are in their journey. >>You know, Steve, I want to just reflect on something. When I was 19 years old in my first job, uh, in New York, it was on a prime mini computer, my first exposure to the enterprise office and then went and worked for IBM and HP and others. I've been in the, around the enterprise. Let me just go back 10 years in Silicon Valley, you could literally count on one or two hands. The number of enterprise experts out there that you knew of that were out circulating that weren't retired. Um, because it went through this kind of commodity stage of outsource everything kind of down to the bone, you know, just keeping the lights on there. Wasn't really a lot of innovation in the enterprise. Now it's the hottest thing in the world. And you, and you look at what's happening with cloud. They're redefining the enterprise in Andy Jassy said to me, and I'm going to interview him, uh, later this week. And you know, he said, we're done with eyes and pads. We checked that's anything. I say anyone, but he's kind of implying that we did. I, as in pass, we're targeting global it. >>Yeah. Well, you know, >>Now enterprise is super hot and you know, it's, it's a whole nother ball game to restructuring on G >>Yeah, I mean, so I, uh, the AWS is marketing slogan, Mark. My words I'll bet you a hundred bucks within the next year is going to change. They are not going to say go build anymore. Right? Because that's what they're going to say. Go consume because no enterprise wants to build and Oh, by the way, here's the other thing that they're now also figuring out. Cause I know Andy Jassy analysis, there's a skills shortage of cloud, so they don't have the skills at the aptitude, but there's also a people shortage. It's not just the skills, it's the amount of people. They don't have the ability to go deploy this. And they're going to, you're going to need solutions like ABA tricks, abstract the way a lot of the complexities of the underlying clouds and deliver this architecture for people to be able to actually deploy. >>Where is the skill gaps in your opinion, where do you see them? >>You know, I was just talking to a customer yesterday and he said most of my, most of my team are CLI jockeys. And so for networking, that means the CLI the command line interface that a human manipulates to control the Cisco router. That's the old operational model. The model of this, these days are Terraform. You're going to infrastructure is code everything. You need scriptures. You need, you need developers that are going to be driving your infrastructure. And, and, but I can't, I can't fire all these people that I've had in my enterprise for the last 30 years. I got to bring them along. I got to bring them along and the tools and the platforms to be able to go, to go do that. >>Andy's argument and Amazon's position is we eliminate the undifferentiated heavy lifting and we have all this training and content to bring everyone along. Okay. By that. >>Well, I mean, here's, here's the thing that I think AWS and all the, all the cloud providers are figuring out is the enterprise is a different beast. You know, when you go to a company as AWS and say, Hey, you can get it as long as it's any color you want, as long as it's black. And so guess what, I'm a service. And the beautiful thing is you don't need to know anything about how we do anything and just trust me, it's all going to work that does not go over well with an enterprise because they say, I'm the guy that needs to know I will get fired. If this infrastructure goes down, you know, you saw us East one go down two weeks ago, Google had a outage to two days ago or whatever it was, shit happens. I don't know if I can say that on the cube. >>We're not going to actually see regulated at this point, but who's going to know. >>Um, and you know what? I've got to have that visibility in controls and enterprise, and I need the granular controls and the visibility to troubleshoot and the security controls and the performance controls that I used to have on prem, because I'm a regulated enterprise. I need that visibility and control. And the cloud providers just say, look, I deliver a service and I deliver it to everybody. And it's the same service. And you don't need to know that does not fly with the >>Well, certainly you're seeing more regulated industries. It used to be just public sector. I just talked with Teresa Carlson. She now took over all the industries. So FinTech is regulated. Energy is regulated. Telecom's regulated. The only thing that's not regulated is a VC and startup sectors, right? So there's a >>Well, and, and, and every, every good CIO of an enterprise knows nothing good comes from your, from your infrastructure that gets outsourced. We tried that it doesn't work. Now, maybe in 20 years, I can outsource my infrastructure if I'm the CIO of a major enterprise corporation. But right now I am not outsourcing that I have to have control. Now, am I going to leverage services and basic infrastructure from the cloud providers? Absolutely. I'm not going to build it on my own data centers. That world is over, but what I'm going to maintain is the visibility and control. >>Yeah. And that's what we heard from Verner. Vogel's around observability systems, thinking control versus observability, um, evolvable systems, things like reasoning, um, you know, these are, these are innovations, right? So, so let's get back to that builders thing, because you mentioned that earlier, I think there might be an opportunity. And I think this is where I think Jassy will either look brilliant or it might not pan out. So go big or go home moment. Can Amazon create a market for companies to say, instead of bringing along everybody, I'm going to bring along some people and hire more builders because there's rewards as spoils to be had for those builders. At this point in time, given the pandemic, it's kind of put everything on full display in terms of what to do. What's your thoughts on that? >>I think, I think outside in meaning I, I look at the customer and I, and I sit at the same side of the table as a customer. I think, what did they want? And every enterprise customer right now is building out their PRI it's just like in 1992, when they built out their private infrastructures, global infrastructure, and they did it with on-prem and data centers. I bought my stories, my compute, my networking, my MPLS, and I built my infrastructure. And it was my infrastructure. They're doing the same thing. It's just, they're architecting on top of cloud and they're doing it in a multi-cloud world because they're not going to be locked in to just one cloud. And they're going to have some applications that run better on GCP. Some have better in AWS and some on Oracle, and all of our customers are doing this. And what they want though, is a common infrastructure. That's their architecture and their infrastructure, not an AWS architecture and a Google architecture and an Azure architecture. What architecture, abstracted away above the clouds. That's my architecture. And it's common for my global network that that's what enterprises want to do. And I think each of the individual clouds are going to have to understand that they are a piece of the puzzle. They are not the puzzle. And I think you're going to have to come to that realization. >>I appreciate your expertise and insight into the commentary real quick, last 30 seconds, give a quick plug for Ava tricks. What are you guys doing? What's new cause the quick update. >>I mean, it's, it's, it's crazy just since, uh, I've been the CEO for two years and you know, the, the logos of large enterprise that we're getting right now. My, my Cambrian explosion that I saw two years ago is real, um, more executing on that strategy. It's a, who's who of logos right now. We've got 450 customers now we're, uh, exploding and more importantly, enterprises are now getting that deployment phase. They have, they're done with the architecture phase of, Hey, let me check this whole thing out in cloud. And now they're pushing the button and they're, they're accelerating, which my guess is it's not a coincidence that AWS is now talking about operations. And what Aviatrix does is, is, is, does gives that visibility and control cloud networking, but in a very cloud native way with Terraform simplicity, agility, because agility is part of mission critical infrastructure. Now can't be like it was in 1994 with a Cisco infrastructure where it said, what year do you want your, your, your infrastructure, Mr. Customer? >>Great. And the biggest thing people should pay attention to this year, uh, for around the enterprise dynamics with cloud and scale what's what should people be watching >>In your opinion? Just the continued movement of big enterprises, uh, all into cloud. The center of gravity is now into cloud and, uh, they're going to be completely running away from everything on prem. >>All right. Steven Landy, CEO of VBA tricks, a proven success entrepreneur CEO, back in the two years of the helm, the VBA tricks. Great to see you. I wish we were in person. One of our last events was your altitude event. It's on YouTube. If anyone was interested in watching, we had a great time. Steve, thank you so much for your candid commentary. Yeah. Thanks, John. Okay. I'm Jennifer with the cube. You're watching the cube virtual here on the cube. Thanks for watching..

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Exascale day, made possible by Hewlett Packard Enterprise. >> Hey, welcome back Jeff Frick here with the cube come due from our Palo Alto studios, for their ongoing coverage in the celebration of Exascale day 10 to the 18th on October 18th, 10 with 18 zeros, it's all about big powerful giant computing and computing resources and computing power. And we're excited to invite back our next guest she's been on before. She's Dr. Arti Garg, head of advanced AI solutions and technologies for HPE. Arti great to see you again. >> Great to see you. >> Absolutely. So let's jump into before we get into Exascale day I was just looking at your LinkedIn profile. It's such a very interesting career. You've done time at Lawrence Livermore, You've done time in the federal government, You've done time at GE and industry, I just love if you can share a little bit of your perspective going from hardcore academia to, kind of some government positions, then into industry as a data scientist, and now with originally Cray and now HPE looking at it really from more of a vendor side. >> Yeah. So I think in some ways, I think I'm like a lot of people who've had the title of data scientists somewhere in their history where there's no single path, to really working in this industry. I come from a scientific background. I have a PhD in physics, So that's where I started working with large data sets. I think of myself as a data scientist before the term data scientist was a term. And I think it's an advantage, to be able to have seen this explosion of interest in leveraging data to gain insights, whether that be into the structure of the galaxy, which is what I used to look at, or whether that be into maybe new types of materials that could advance our ability to build lightweight cars or safety gear. It's allows you to take a perspective to not only understand what the technical challenges are, but what also the implementation challenges are, and why it can be hard to use data to solve problems. >> Well, I'd just love to get your, again your perspective cause you are into data, you chose that as your profession, and you probably run with a whole lot of people, that are also like-minded in terms of data. As an industry and as a society, we're trying to get people to do a better job of making database decisions and getting away from their gut and actually using data. I wonder if you can talk about the challenges of working with people who don't come from such an intense data background to get them to basically, I don't know if it's understand the value of more of a data kind decision making process or board just it's worth the effort, cause it's not easy to get the data and cleanse the data, and trust the data and get the right context, working with people that don't come from that background. And aren't so entrenched in that point of view, what surprises you? How do you help them? What can you share in terms of helping everybody get to be a more data centric decision maker? >> So I would actually rephrase the question a little bit Jeff, and say that actually I think people have always made data driven decisions. It's just that in the past we maybe had less data available to us or the quality of it was not as good. And so as a result most organizations have developed organize themselves to make decisions, to run their processes based on a much smaller and more refined set of information, than is currently available both given our ability to generate lots of data, through software and sensors, our ability to store that data. And then our ability to run a lot of computing cycles and a lot of advanced math against that data, to learn things that maybe in the past took, hundreds of years of experiments in scientists to understand. And so before I jumped into, how do you overcome that barrier? Just I'll use an example because you mentioned, I used to work in industry I used to work at GE. And one of the things that I often joked about, is the number of times I discovered Bernoulli's principle, in data coming off a GE jet engines you could do that overnight processing these large data but of course historically that took hundreds of years, to really understand these physical principles. And so I think when it comes to how do we bridge the gap between people who are adapt at processing large amounts of data, and running algorithms to pull insights out? I think it's both sides. I think it's those of us who are coming from the technical background, really understanding the way decisions are currently made, the way process and operations currently work at an organization. And understanding why those things are the way they are maybe their security or compliance or accountability concerns, that a new algorithm can't just replace those. And so I think it's on our end, really trying to understand, and make sure that whatever new approaches we're bringing address those concerns. And I think for folks who aren't necessarily coming from a large data set, and analytical background and when I say analytical, I mean in the data science sense, not in the sense of thinking about things in an abstract way to really recognize that these are just tools, that can enhance what they're doing, and they don't necessarily need to be frightening because I think that people who have been say operating electric grids for a long time, or fixing aircraft engines, they have a lot of expertise and a lot of understanding, and that's really important to making any kind of AI driven solution work. >> That's great insight but that but I do think one thing that's changed you come from a world where you had big data sets, so you kind of have a big data set point of view, where I think for a lot of decision makers they didn't have that data before. So we won't go through all the up until the right explosions of data, and obviously we're talking about Exascale day, but I think for a lot of processes now, the amount of data that they can bring to bear, is so dwarfs what they had in the past that before they even consider how to use it they still have to contextualize it, and they have to manage it and they have to organize it and there's data silos. So there's all this kind of nasty processes stuff, that's in the way some would argue has been kind of a real problem with the promise of BI, and does decision support tools. So as you look at at this new stuff and these new datasets, what are some of the people in process challenges beyond the obvious things that we can think about, which are the technical challenges? >> So I think that you've really hit on, something I talk about sometimes it was kind of a data deluge that we experienced these days, and the notion of feeling like you're drowning in information but really lacking any kind of insight. And one of the things that I like to think about, is to actually step back from the data questions the infrastructure questions, sort of all of these technical questions that can seem very challenging to navigate. And first ask ourselves, what problems am I trying to solve? It's really no different than any other type of decision you might make in an organization to say like, what are my biggest pain points? What keeps me up at night? or what would just transform the way my business works? And those are the problems worth solving. And then the next question becomes, if I had more data if I had a better understanding of something about my business or about my customers or about the world in which we all operate, would that really move the needle for me? And if the answer is yes, then that starts to give you a picture of what you might be able to do with AI, and it starts to tell you which of those data management challenges, whether they be cleaning the data, whether it be organizing the data, what it, whether it be building models on the data are worth solving because you're right, those are going to be a time intensive, labor intensive, highly iterative efforts. But if you know why you're doing it, then you will have a better understanding of why it's worth the effort. And also which shortcuts you can take which ones you can't, because often in order to sort of see the end state you might want to do a really quick experiment or prototype. And so you want to know what matters and what doesn't at least to that. Is this going to work at all time. >> So you're not buying the age old adage that you just throw a bunch of data in a data Lake and the answers will just spring up, just come right back out of the wall. I mean, you bring up such a good point, It's all about asking the right questions and thinking about asking questions. So again, when you talk to people, about helping them think about the questions, cause then you've got to shape the data to the question. And then you've got to start to build the algorithm, to kind of answer that question. How should people think when they're actually building algorithm and training algorithms, what are some of the typical kind of pitfalls that a lot of people fall in, haven't really thought about it before and how should people frame this process? Cause it's not simple and it's not easy and you really don't know that you have the answer, until you run multiple iterations and compare it against some other type of reference? >> Well, one of the things that I like to think about just so that you're sort of thinking about, all the challenges you're going to face up front, you don't necessarily need to solve all of these problems at the outset. But I think it's important to identify them, is I like to think about AI solutions as, they get deployed being part of a kind of workflow, and the workflow has multiple stages associated with it. The first stage being generating your data, and then starting to prepare and explore your data and then building models for your data. But sometimes I think where we don't always think about it is the next two phases, which is deploying whatever model or AI solution you've developed. And what will that really take especially in the ecosystem where it's going to live. If is it going to live in a secure and compliant ecosystem? Is it actually going to live in an outdoor ecosystem? We're seeing more applications on the edge, and then finally who's going to use it and how are they going to drive value from it? Because it could be that your AI solution doesn't work cause you don't have the right dashboard, that highlights and visualizes the data for the decision maker who will benefit from it. So I think it's important to sort of think through all of these stages upfront, and think through maybe what some of the biggest challenges you might encounter at the Mar, so that you're prepared when you meet them, and you can kind of refine and iterate along the way and even upfront tweak the question you're asking. >> That's great. So I want to get your take on we're celebrating Exascale day which is something very specific on 1018, share your thoughts on Exascale day specifically, but more generally I think just in terms of being a data scientist and suddenly having, all this massive compute power. At your disposal yoy're been around for a while. So you've seen the development of the cloud, these huge data sets and really the ability to, put so much compute horsepower against the problems as, networking and storage and compute, just asymptotically approach zero, I mean for as a data scientist you got to be pretty excited about kind of new mysteries, new adventures, new places to go, that we just you just couldn't do it 10 years ago five years ago, 15 years ago. >> Yeah I think that it's, it'll--only time will tell exactly all of the things that we'll be able to unlock, from these new sort of massive computing capabilities that we're going to have. But a couple of things that I'm very excited about, are that in addition to sort of this explosion or these very large investments in large supercomputers Exascale super computers, we're also seeing actually investment in these other types of scientific instruments that when I say scientific it's not just academic research, it's driving pharmaceutical drug discovery because we're talking about these, what they call light sources which shoot x-rays at molecules, and allow you to really understand the structure of the molecules. What Exascale allows you to do is, historically it's been that you would go take your molecule to one of these light sources and you shoot your, x-rays edit and you would generate just masses and masses of data, terabytes of data it was each shot. And being able to then understand, what you were looking at was a long process, getting computing time and analyzing the data. We're on the precipice of being able to do that, if not in real time much closer to real time. And I don't really know what happens if instead of coming up with a few molecules, taking them, studying them, and then saying maybe I need to do something different. I can do it while I'm still running my instrument. And I think that it's very exciting, from the perspective of someone who's got a scientific background who likes using large data sets. There's just a lot of possibility of what Exascale computing allows us to do in from the standpoint of I don't have to wait to get results, and I can either stimulate much bigger say galaxies, and really compare that to my data or galaxies or universes, if you're an astrophysicist or I can simulate, much smaller finer details of a hypothetical molecule and use that to predict what might be possible, from a materials or drug perspective, just to name two applications that I think Exascale could really drive. >> That's really great feedback just to shorten that compute loop. We had an interview earlier in some was talking about when the, biggest workload you had to worry about was the end of the month when you're running your financial, And I was like, why wouldn't that be nice to be the biggest job that we have to worry about? But now I think we saw some of this at animation, in the movie business when you know the rendering for whether it's a full animation movie, or just something that's a heavy duty three effects. When you can get those dailies back to the, to the artist as you said while you're still working, or closer to when you're working versus having this, huge kind of compute delay, it just changes the workflow dramatically and the pace of change and the pace of output. Because you're not context switching as much and you can really get back into it. That's a super point. I want to shift gears a little bit, and talk about explainable AI. So this is a concept that a lot of people hopefully are familiar with. So AI you build the algorithm it's in a box, it runs and it kicks out an answer. And one of the things that people talk about, is we should be able to go in and pull that algorithm apart to know, why it came out with the answer that it did. To me this just sounds really really hard because it's smart people like you, that are writing the algorithms the inputs and the and the data that feeds that thing, are super complex. The math behind it is very complex. And we know that the AI trains and can change over time as you you train the algorithm it gets more data, it adjusts itself. So it's explainable AI even possible? Is it possible at some degree? Because I do think it's important. And my next question is going to be about ethics, to know why something came out. And the other piece that becomes so much more important, is as we use that output not only to drive, human based decision that needs some more information, but increasingly moving it over to automation. So now you really want to know why did it do what it did explainable AI? Share your thoughts. >> It's a great question. And it's obviously a question that's on a lot of people's mind these days. I'm actually going to revert back to what I said earlier, when I talked about Bernoulli's principle, and just the ability sometimes when you do throw an algorithm at data, it might come the first thing it will find is probably some known law of physics. And so I think that really thinking about what do we mean by explainable AI, also requires us to think about what do we mean by AI? These days AI is often used anonymously with deep learning which is a particular type of algorithm that is not very analytical at its core. And what I mean by that is, other types of statistical machine learning models, have some underlying theory of what the population of data that you're studying. And whereas deep learning doesn't, it kind of just learns whatever pattern is sitting in front of it. And so there is a sense in which if you look at other types of algorithms, they are inherently explainable because you're choosing your algorithm based on what you think the is the sort of ground truth, about the population you're studying. And so I think we going to get to explainable deep learning. I think it's kind of challenging because you're always going to be in a position, where deep learning is designed to just be as flexible as possible. I'm sort of throw more math at the problem, because there may be are things that your sort of simpler model doesn't account for. However deep learning could be, part of an explainable AI solution. If for example, it helps you identify what are important so called features to look at what are the important aspects of your data. So I don't know it depends on what you mean by AI, but are you ever going to get to the point where, you don't need humans sort of interpreting outputs, and making some sets of judgments about what a set of computer algorithms that are processing data think. I think it will take, I don't want to say I know what's going to happen 50 years from now, but I think it'll take a little while to get to the point where you don't have, to maybe apply some subject matter understanding and some human judgment to what an algorithm is putting out. >> It's really interesting we had Dr. Robert Gates on a years ago at another show, and he talked about the only guns in the U.S. military if I'm getting this right, that are automatic, that will go based on what the computer tells them to do, and start shooting are on the Korean border. But short of that there's always a person involved, before anybody hits a button which begs a question cause we've seen this on the big data, kind of curve, i think Gartner has talked about it, as we move up from kind of descriptive analytics diagnostic analytics, predictive, and then prescriptive and then hopefully autonomous. So I wonder so you're saying will still little ways in that that last little bumps going to be tough to overcome to get to the true autonomy. >> I think so and you know it's going to be very application dependent as well. So it's an interesting example to use the DMZ because that is obviously also a very, mission critical I would say example but in general I think that you'll see autonomy. You already do see autonomy in certain places, where I would say the States are lower. So if I'm going to have some kind of recommendation engine, that suggests if you look at the sweater maybe like that one, the risk of getting that wrong. And so fully automating that as a little bit lower, because the risk is you don't buy the sweater. I lose a little bit of income I lose a little bit of revenue as a retailer, but the risk of I make that turn, because I'm going to autonomous vehicle as much higher. So I think that you will see the progression up that curve being highly dependent on what's at stake, with different degrees of automation. That being said you will also see in certain places where there's, it's either really expensive or it's humans aren't doing a great job. You may actually start to see some mission critical automation. But those would be the places where you're seeing them. And actually I think that's one of the reasons why you see actually a lot more autonomy, in the agriculture space, than you do in the sort of passenger vehicle space. Because there's a lot at stake and it's very difficult for human beings to sort of drive large combines. >> plus they have a real they have a controlled environment. So I've interviewed Caterpillar they're doing a ton of stuff with autonomy. Cause they're there control that field, where those things are operating, and whether it's a field or a mine, it's actually fascinating how far they've come with autonomy. But let me switch to a different industry that I know is closer to your heart, and looking at some other interviews and let's talk about diagnosing disease. And if we take something specific like reviewing x-rays where the computer, and it also brings in the whole computer vision and bringing in computer vision algorithms, excuse me they can see things probably fast or do a lot more comparisons, than potentially a human doctor can. And or hopefully this whole signal to noise conversation elevate the signal for the doctor to review, and suppress the noise it's really not worth their time. They can also review a lot of literature, and hopefully bring a broader potential perspective of potential diagnoses within a set of symptoms. You said before you both your folks are physicians, and there's a certain kind of magic, a nuance, almost like kind of more childlike exploration to try to get out of the algorithm if you will to think outside the box. I wonder if you can share that, synergy between using computers and AI and machine learning to do really arduous nasty things, like going through lots and lots and lots and lots of, x-rays compared to and how that helps with, doctor who's got a whole different kind of set of experience a whole different kind of empathy, whole different type of relationship with that patient, than just a bunch of pictures of their heart or their lungs. >> I think that one of the things is, and this kind of goes back to this question of, is AI for decision support versus automation? And I think that what AI can do, and what we're pretty good at these days, with computer vision is picking up on subtle patterns right now especially if you have a very large data set. So if I can train on lots of pictures of lungs, it's a lot easier for me to identify the pictures that somehow these are not like the other ones. And that can be helpful but I think then to really interpret what you're seeing and understand is this. Is it actually bad quality image? Is it some kind of some kind of medical issue? And what is the medical issue? I think that's where bringing in, a lot of different types of knowledge, and a lot of different pieces of information. Right now I think humans are a little bit better at doing that. And some of that's because I don't think we have great ways to train on, sort of sparse datasets I guess. And the second part is that human beings might be 40 years of training a model. They 50 years of training a model as opposed to six months, or something with sparse information. That's another thing that human beings have their sort of lived experience, and the data that they bring to bear, on any type of prediction or classification is actually more than just say what they saw in their medical training. It might be the people they've met, the places they've lived what have you. And I think that's that part that sort of broader set of learning, and how things that might not be related might actually be related to your understanding of what you're looking at. I think we've got a ways to go from a sort of artificial intelligence perspective and developed. >> But it is Exascale day. And we all know about the compound exponential curves on the computing side. But let's shift gears a little bit. I know you're interested in emerging technology to support this effort, and there's so much going on in terms of, kind of the atomization of compute store and networking to be able to break it down into smaller, smaller pieces, so that you can really scale the amount of horsepower that you need to apply to a problem, to very big or to very small. Obviously the stuff that you work is more big than small. Work on GPU a lot of activity there. So I wonder if you could share, some of the emerging technologies that you're excited about to bring again more tools to the task. >> I mean, one of the areas I personally spend a lot of my time exploring are, I guess this word gets used a lot, the Cambrian  explosion of new AI accelerators. New types of chips that are really designed for different types of AI workloads. And as you sort of talked about going down, and it's almost in a way where we were sort of going back and looking at these large systems, but then exploring each little component on them, and trying to really optimize that or understand how that component contributes to the overall performance of the whole. And I think one of the things that just, I don't even know there's probably close to a hundred active vendors in the space of developing new processors, and new types of computer chips. I think one of the things that that points to is, we're moving in the direction of generally infrastructure heterogeneity. So it used to be when you built a system you probably had one type of processor, or you probably had a pretty uniform fabric across your system you usually had, I think maybe storage we started to get tearing a little bit earlier. But now I think that what we're going to see, and we're already starting to see it with Exascale systems where you've got GPUs and CPUs on the same blades, is we're starting to see as the workloads that are running at large scales are becoming more complicated. Maybe I'm doing some simulation and then I'm running I'm training some kind of AI model, and then I'm inferring it on some other type, some other output of the simulation. I need to have the ability to do a lot of different things, and do them in at a very advanced level. Which means I need very specialized technology to do it. And I think it's an exciting time. And I think we're going to test, we're going to break a lot of things. I probably shouldn't say that in this interview, but I'm hopeful that we're going to break some stuff. We're going to push all these systems to the limit, and find out where we actually need to push a little harder. And I some of the areas I think that we're going to see that, is there We're going to want to move data, and move data off of scientific instruments, into computing, into memory, into a lot of different places. And I'm really excited to see how it plays out, and what you can do and where the limits are of what you can do with the new systems. >> Arti I could talk to you all day. I love the experience and the perspective, cause you've been doing this for a long time. So I'm going to give you the final word before we sign out and really bring it back, to a more human thing which is ethics. So one of the conversations we hear all the time, is that if you are going to do something, if you're going to put together a project and you justify that project, and then you go and you collect the data and you run that algorithm and you do that project. That's great but there's like an inherent problem with, kind of data collection that may be used for something else down the road that maybe you don't even anticipate. So I just wonder if you can share, kind of top level kind of ethical take on how data scientists specifically, and then ultimately more business practitioners and other people that don't carry that title. Need to be thinking about ethics and not just kind of forget about it. That these are I had a great interview with Paul Doherty. Everybody's data is not just their data, it's it represents a person, It's a representation of what they do and how they lives. So when you think about kind of entering into a project and getting started, what do you think about in terms of the ethical considerations and how should people be cautious that they don't go places that they probably shouldn't go? >> I think that's a great question out a short answer. But I think that I honestly don't know that we have a great solutions right now, but I think that the best we can do is take a very multifaceted, and also vigilant approach to it. So when you're collecting data, and often we should remember a lot of the data that gets used isn't necessarily collected for the purpose it's being used, because we might be looking at old medical records, or old any kind of transactional records whether it be from a government or a business. And so as you start to collect data or build solutions, try to think through who are all the people who might use it? And what are the possible ways in which it could be misused? And also I encourage people to think backwards. What were the biases in place that when the data were collected, you see this a lot in the criminal justice space is the historical records reflect, historical biases in our systems. And so is I there are limits to how much you can correct for previous biases, but there are some ways to do it, but you can't do it if you're not thinking about it. So I think, sort of at the outset of developing solutions, that's important but I think equally important is putting in the systems to maintain the vigilance around it. So one don't move to autonomy before you know, what potential new errors you might or new biases you might introduce into the world. And also have systems in place to constantly ask these questions. Am I perpetuating things I don't want to perpetuate? Or how can I correct for them? And be willing to scrap your system and start from scratch if you need to. >> Well Arti thank you. Thank you so much for your time. Like I said I could talk to you for days and days and days. I love the perspective and the insight and the thoughtfulness. So thank you for sharing your thoughts, as we celebrate Exascale day. >> Thank you for having me. >> My pleasure thank you. All right she's Arti I'm Jeff it's Exascale day. We're covering on the queue thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (bright upbeat music)

>> [Narrator} From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome back to theCUBE on cloud. We're talking about developers and well, so many people remember the meme from 2010 of Steve Ballmer jumping around on stage developer, developers and developers. Many people know what is really important about developers they probably read the 2013 book called "The New Kingmakers" by Stephen O'Grady. And I'm really happy to welcome to the program Rachel Stephens who's an industry analyst with RedMonk who was cofounded by the aforementioned Stephen O'Grady. Rachel great to see you. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. I've had the opportunity to read some of what you've done. We've interacted on social media. We've come to talk at events back when we used to do those in people. In person I don't- >> Busy times >> So glad that you get to come on the program, especially you were the ones that I reached out when we had this developer track. If you could just give our audience a little bit about your background that developer credit that you have because as I joke, I've got a closet full of hoodies but I'm an infrastructure guy by training. I've been learning about, containers and serverless and all this stuff for years but I'm not myself much a developer I've touched a thing or two in the years. >> Yeah. So happy to be here. RedMonk has been around since 2002 and have kind of been beating that developer drum ever since then kind of. As the company, I'm the founder. Stephen James noticed that the decision making the developers is really a driver for what was actually ending up in the enterprise. And as even more true as cloud came onto the scene as open source exploded. And I think it's become a lot more of a common view now but in those early days, it was probably a little bit more of a controversial opinion. But I have been with the firm for coming up on five years now. I work as an industry analyst. We kind of help people understand bottoms up technology adoption trends. So that that's where I spend my time focusing is what's getting used in the enterprise. Why, what kind of trends are happening? And so, yeah, that's where we all come from. That's the history of RedMonk in 30 seconds. >> Awesome. Rachel, you talk about the enterprise and developers. For the longest time I just said there was this huge gap. You talk about bottoms up. It's like, well, developers use the tools that they want. If they don't have to, they don't pay for anything. And the general IT and the business sides of the house were like, "We don't know what those people in the corner are doing, it's important." And things like that. But today it feels like that that's closed a bunch. Where are we in your estimation? Are our developers, do they have a clear seat at the table? The title we had for this is whether the enterprise developer is enterprise developer and oxymoron in 2020, in 2021? >> I think enterprise developers have a lot more practical authority than people give them credit for, especially if you're kind of looking at that old view of the world where everything is driven by a buyer decision or kind of this top down purchasing motion. And we've really seen that authority of what is getting used and why change a lot in the last year, And like last decade, even more of people who are able to choose the tools that meet the job and bring in tools, regardless of whether they may be have that official approval through the right channels. Because of the convenience of trying to get things up and running we are asking developers to do so much right now and to go faster and shifting things left. And so the things that they are responsible for incorporating into the way they are building apps is growing, and so as we are asking developers to do more and to do more quickly, the tools that they need to do those tasks to get these apps built, the decision making is falling to them. This is what I need. This is what needs to come in. And so we are seeing basically the tools that enterprise are using are the tools that developers want to be using and they kind of just find their way into the enterprise. >> Now, I want to key off what you were talking about. Just developers are being asked to do more and more. We see these pendulum swings in technology. There was a time where it was like, "Well, I'll outsource it because that'll be easier and maybe it'll be less expensive." And number one, we found it wasn't necessarily cheaper. Number two, I couldn't make changes and I didn't understand what was happening. So when I talked to enterprises today absolutely, I need to have skillsets internally. I need to be able to respond to things fast and therefore I need skills and I need people that can build what they have. What do you see? What are those skill sets that are so important today? we've talked so many times over the years there's the skills gap. We don't have enough data scientists. We don't have enough developers. We don't have any of these things. So what do we have? And where were things trending? >> Yeah, it's one of those things for developers where they both have probably the most full tool set that we've seen in this industry in terms of things that are available to them. But it's also really hard because it also indicates that there's just this fragmentation at every level of the stack. And there's this explosion of choice in decisions that is happening up and down the stack of how are we going to build things. And so it's really tricky to be a developer these days in that you are making a lot of decisions, and you are wiring a lot of things together, and you have to be able to navigate a lot of things. And I think one of the things that is interesting here is that we have seen the phrase like full stack developer really carried a lot of panache maybe earlier this decade and has kind of fallen away just because we've realized that it's impossible for anybody to be able to span this whole broad spectrum of all of the things we are asking people to do. So we're seeing this explosion of choice which is meaning that there is a little bit more focus in where developers, we're trying to actually figure out what is my niche, what is it that I'm supposed to focus on? And so it's really just this balancing of act of trying to see this big picture of how to get this all put together and also have this focused area realizing that you have to specialize at some point. >> Rachel is such a great point there we've absolutely seen that Cambrian explosion of developer tools that are out there. If you go to the CNCF as landscape and look at everything out there or go to any of your public cloud providers there's no way that anybody even working for those companies know a good portion of the tools that are out there. So nobody can be a master of everything. How about from a cloud standpoint? There's the discussion of, what do I shift left? Can I just say okay, this piece of it, it can be a managed service, I don't need to think about it versus what skills that I need to have in house? What is it that's important? And obviously, as analysts, we know it varies greatly across companies, but what are some of those top things that we need to make sure that enterprises have the skillset and the tools in house that they should understand and what can they push off to their platform of choice? >> Yeah, I think your comment about managed services is really prescient because one of the trends that we are watching closely it's just this rise of managed services. And it kind of ties back into the concept you had before about like what in NITMSA have like the Nicholas car, IT doesn't matter, and we're pushing this all away. And then we realized, "Oh, we got to bring that all back." But we also realized we really want as enterprises want to be spending our time doing differentiated work and why we're together your entire infrastructure isn't necessarily differentiated for a lot of companies. And so it's trying to find this mix of where can I push my abstraction higher or to find a managed service that can do something for me? And we're seeing that happen in all levels of the stack. And so what we're seeing is this rise of composite apps, where we're going to say, "Okay, I'm going to pull in back end APIs from a whole bunch of tools like Twilio or Stripe or Alsera, or Algolia all of those things are great tools that I can incorporate into my app, and I can have this great user interface that I can use. And then I don't have to worry quite so much about building it all myself but I am responsible for wiring it all together. So I think it's that wired together set of interests that is happening for developers has the tool set that they are spending a lot of time with. So we see the managed services being important playing an important role in how apps are composed. And it's the composition of that app sort of is happening internally. >> One of the regular research items that I see at a RedMonk is, what languages, where are the trends going? There's been some relative stability but then some things change. I look at the tool set, you mentioned full stack developer. I talked to a full stack developer a couple of years ago and he's like, "Like, ah." Like Terraform is my life and I love everything and I've used it forever. And that was 18 months. And I kind of laugh because it's like, okay, I measure a lot of the technologies that I use in the decades, not that, "Oh wait, this came out six months ago and it's kind of mature." And of course, CICD come on, if it's six weeks old it's probably gone through a lot of iterations. So what do you say, do you have any research that you can share as to looking forward? What are the skill sets we need? How should we be training our force? What do we need to be looking at in this kind of next decade of cloud? >> Yeah, so when you spoke about languages we do a semi-annual review of language usage as seen on GitHub and discussion as seen on Stack Overflow which we fully recognize is not a perfect representation of how these languages are used in the broader world but those are data sets that we have access to that are relatively large and open. So just before anyone writes me, angry letters I said that's not the way that we should be doing it (laughs) but one of the things that we've seen over time is that there is a lot of relative stability in those top tier languages in terms of how they are used. And there's some movement at the bottom but the trends we're seeing where the languages are moving is type safety and having a safer language and the communities that are building upon other communities. So things like we're seeing Kotlin, that is able to kind of piggyback off of being a JVM based language and having that support from Google or we're seeing TypeScript where it can piggyback off of the breadth of deployment of JavaScript, things like that. So those things where we're combining together multiple trends that developers are interested in the same time, combined with an ecosystem that's already rich and full. And so we're seeing that there's definitely still movement in languages that people are interested in but also language on its own is probably pretty stable. So as you start to make language choices as a developer that's not where we're seeing a ton of like turnover. Language frameworks on the other hand, like if you're a JavaScript developer and all of a sudden, there's just explosion of frameworks that you need to choose from. That's maybe a different story, a lot more turnover there and harder to predict, but language trends are a little bit more stable over time. >> There's a lot change. Changing over time. Boy, I got to dig into, relatively recently I went down like the JAMStack ecosystem I've been digging into serverless for a number of years. What's your take on that? There's certain people I talked to and they're like, "I don't even need to be a coder. I can be a marketing person, and I can get things done." When I talked to some developers they're like, "Citizen developers, they're not developers, come on. I really need to be able to do this." So I'll give you your choice as to, serverless and some of these trends to kind of expand who can code and develop. >> Yeah, so for both trans like JAMstack and serverless, one of the things that we see kind of early in the iteration of a technology is that it is definitely not going to be the right tool for every app. And the number of apps that they approach will fit for, will grow as the tool develops and that you add more functionality over time. And all of these platforms expand the capability but definitely not the correct tool choice in every case. That said we do watch both of those areas with extreme interest in terms of what this next generation of apps can look like and probably will look like in a lot of cases. And I think that it is super interesting to think about who gets to build these apps, because I think one of the things that we probably haven't landed on the right language yet is what we should call these people because I don't think anyone associates themselves as a low code person, like if you're someone from marketing and all of a sudden you can build something technical that's really cool. And you're excited about that nobody else on your team can build. You're not walking around saying, "I am a low code marketing person" Like that's demeaning. Like I know I'm a technical marketer. Look what I just did. And if you're someone who codes professionally for a living and you use a low code tool to get something out the door quickly and you don't want to demean or say, "oh hi, I did a low code, that in a sec." Everybody is just trying to solve problems. And everybody is trying to figure out how to do things in the most effective way possible and making trade offs all the time. And so I don't think that the language of low code really is anything that resonates with any of the actual users of low code tools. And so I think that's something that we as an industry need to work on finding the correct language because it doesn't feel like we've landed there yet. >> Yeah, quick Rachel, what want to get your take on just careers for developers now to think about in 2020, everyone is distributed lots of conversations about where do we work? Can we bring your remote? Many of the developers I talked to already were remote. I had a chance to interview the head of remote for GitHub there were over a thousand people and they're fully remote. So, remote absolutely a thing for developers. But if you talk about careers it's no longer, "Oh, Hey, here's my CV." It's, "I'm on GitHub. You can see the code I've done." We haven't talked about open source yet. So give us your take on kind of developers today, career paths and kind of the online community there. >> Yeah. Oh, this could be its whole own conversation. (laughs) I'll try to figure it out the, my points. So I think one of the things that we are trying to figure out in terms of balance is how much are we expecting people to have done on the side? It's like a side project hustle versus doing exclusively getting your job done and not worrying too much about how many green squares you have on your GitHub profile. And I think it's a really emotional and fraught discussion in a lot of quarters because it can be exclusionary for people saying that you need to be spending your time on the side, working on this open source project because there are people who have very different life circumstances. Like if you're someone who already has kids or you're doing elder care or you are working another job and trying to transition into becoming a developer, it's a lot to ask these people to also have a side hustle. That said, it is probably working on open source having an understanding of how tools are done, having this experience and skills that you can point to and contributions you can point to, is probably one of the cleaner ways that you can start to move in the industry and break through to the industry because you can show your skills to other employers. You can kind of maybe make your way in as a junior developer because you've worked on a project and you make those connections. And so it's really still, again, it's one of those balancing act things where there's not a perfect answer because there really is two correct sides of this argument. And both of the things are true at the same time where it's it's hard to figure out what that early career path maybe looks like or even advancing in a career path if you're already a developer, it's, it's tricky. >> Well, I want to get your take on something too. I go back a decade or two, when I started working with Linux about 20 years ago back in the crazy days where it was just kind of lot of work and patches everywhere, and lots of different companies trying to figure out what they would be doing. And most of the people contributing to the free software before we even were calling it open source most of the time it was their side hustle. It was the thing they're doing. It was their passion project. I've seen some research in the last year or so that says the majority of people that are contributing to open source are doing it for their day job. Obviously there's lots of big companies. There's plenty of small companies. When I go to the Linux Foundation shows I mean, you've got whole companies that, that's their whole business. So I want to get your take on governance, contribution from the individual versus companies there's a lot of change going on there. Heck the public clouds, their impact on what's happening open source. What are you seeing there? And what's good, what's bad? What do we need to do better as a community? >> Yeah, I think the governance of opensource projects is definitely a live conversation that we're having right now about what does this need to look like? What role do companies need to be having, and how things are put together is a contribution or leadership position in the name of the individual or the name of the company. Like all of these are live conversations that are ongoing in a lot of communities. I think one of the things that is interesting overall though is just watching if you're taking a really zoomed out view of what open source looks like, where it was at one point deemed at cancer by one of the vendors in this space, and now it is something that is just absolutely, an inherent part of most tech vendors and end users is an important part of how they are building and using software today. Like open source is really an integral tool in what is happening in the enterprise and what's being built in the enterprise. And so I think that it is a natural thing that this conversation is evolving in terms of what is the enterprise's role here and how are we supposed to govern for that? And I don't think that we have landed on all the correct answers yet but I think that just looking at that long view it makes sense that this is an area where we are spending some time focusing. >> So Rachel, without giving away state secrets we know RedMonk, you do lots of consulting out there. What advice do you give to the industry? We said, we're making progress. There's good things there. But if we say, okay, I want to at 2030, look back and say, "Boy, this is wonderful for developers, everything's going good." What things have we've done along the way, where have we made progress? >> Yeah, so I think it kind of ties back to the earlier discussion we were having around composite apps and thinking about what that developer experience looks like, I think that right now it is incredibly difficult for developers to be wiring everything together. And there's just so much for developers to do to actually, get all of these apps from source to production. So when we talk with our customers, a lot of our time is spent thinking, how can you not only solve this individual piece of the puzzle, but how can you figure out how to fit it into this broader picture of what it is the developers are trying to accomplish? How can you think about where you're art fits not only your tool or your project whatever it is that you are working on, how does this fit? Not only in terms of your one unique problem space but where does this problem space fit in the broader landscape? Because I think that's going to be a really key element of what the developer experience looks like in the next decade, is trying to help people actually, get everything wired together in a coherent way. >> Rachel, no shortage of work to do there, really appreciate you joining us thrilled to have you finally as a CUBE alumni. Thanks so much for joining. >> Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. >> All right. Thank you for joining us. This is the Developer Content for theCUBE on cloud. I'm Stu Miniman. And as always, thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Actifio data driven 2020 brought to you by Actifio. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman. This is the cubes coverage of Actifio data driven, happy to welcome to the program, the Co-founder and Chief Product Officer David Chang with Actifio. Thanks so much for joining us. Great to have you back on theCUBE. >> Great to be here, Stu, thank you. >> All right, so the big theme of the event is the next normal, of course, we've been talking about transformation of data for many years, but the global pandemic has put a real emphasis on some of the transformations that customers are going through and alluding to that next normal because definitely things have changed a bit. What, give us if you could kind of a high level, you know what you've been seeing, you've been there since the start for Actifio. So, you know, what is that next normal for customers? >> Yeah, absolutely, so I would say over the span of the last two years, we've seen definitely a accelerated ramp into the Clouds. But I think this whole pandemic has really accelerated. I mean, this really telltale sign came in, we actually, prior to the pandemic hit, we closed a large European customer. And within a span of two weeks, they were saying, you know, "I can't get access to my data center for all the important work that I have to do." And with Actifio like to move everything into the Cloud. So within the span of three weeks, we were able to move a lot of their critical workloads with them. So I think that gave us the telltale sign that this thing is really truly accelerating. >> Yeah, it absolutely there's that acceleration. It's tough to move data, though. It's not like we can just say, "Okay, hey, you know, we've got petabytes, you know, that the laws of physics still are in place." And also with that move to Cloud, you know, backup and recovery, you know, disaster recovery, you know, still critically important so and any learnings that you've had this year or things where you've had to, you know, help out customers, as they say, "We need to move fast, but we also need to stay secure. And we need to make sure that our data is safe." >> Absolutely, so I think there's a major difference between the lift and shift model in terms of your way at your application infrastructure, and then the actual foundation, building block you're using those pieces are very difficult to lift and shift, because Cloud fundamentally present different set of building blocks. A great example here is that object storage, you know, it's the most scalable and lowest cost storage available in the public sort of Cloud hyperscaler infrastructure. And without that, trying to move to the Cloud would be very difficult indeed, trying to make the infrastructure match. >> So let's dig in and talk a little bit about how Cloud really transforms storage, you know, back in the storage industry, we've talked for a long time that you know, object was the future and that's, what Cloud was built on. So you've got large scalability, you've got some great cost efficiencies. You know, what does that mean for the Actifio solutions and your customer? >> Yeah, I think from the very beginning, I would say recall this conversation three or four years ago, when we were looking at what are some of the next generation architecture we want to build the Actifio technology on? It was very clearly that object storage needs to be front and center in everything we do. It's not a it's a maybe a little known fact. But Amazon AWS service initially started with the S3 architecture and that was the very first service they brought live within the AWS sort of product portfolio. So it is as fundamental to the Cloud as you know, EC2 more so than containers and so on and so forth. And the fact that you have this almost linear scalability horizontally to exabytes of storage and the fact that you can essentially leverage all the performance you need to get out the object storage that's all built into the environment. Those are some of the critical pieces and obviously, the low cost, you know, compared with SSD or spinning drives on the on the EC2 environment, those are all some of the critical elements on why object storage is so critical in this whole Cloud migration, if you will. >> Yeah, I wonder if we could talk a little bit about the application sort of things because of course, the architecture matters, but it's really the the outcomes, it's the reason we have infrastructures for the applications and of course one of the most mission critical applications. We've talked about data, it's those databases. We've seen a lot of transformation in the database world. Most customers I talked to now, it's not their one central source of truth. They now have many databases, especially in the Cloud we've seen that kind of Cambrian explosion of options out there. What does that meant for your customers? You know, take us inside, you know, that most important database world. >> Yeah, I think any customer with their interest to go into the Cloud or minimize the on premise environment anyway, the very first thing they think about is what are I most critical application I need to move right? Database are typically it. You know, there are companies that has a lot of, I would say, projects around migrating some of the traditional databases into NoSQL, or even hosted services like RDS. But I would say the vast majority of the database population that's in fact, that's essentially in production today are some of the traditional databases. So that tend to be also tend to be the most difficult problem in terms of trying to migrate the workload to the Cloud or DR or business continuity into the Cloud. >> So David, how about you know what is new from Actifio now? What should customers be looking at when we talk about the storage capabilities? >> So I would say the first thing is that Actifio allow our customers to kind of maintain the legacy databases they use. And by using Actifio, we normalize the entire Cloud infrastructures. So you can get all the same RPOs and RTOs that you're used to on premise into the Cloud. And through the adoption or of object storage down deep into their foundation blocks of our architecture, now, you can have sort of the best of both world. You can have this on demand capability or using from the public Clouds. You are, you know, getting capability as you need them. But also you can leverage sort of object storage without changing your application architecture, to get that performance and get to the sort of the cost point that you need to make that entire business viable. I think relatively recently, we did ESG sort of project that really validated that you can get 95 to 97% of the performance of SSD, but rather on object storage. And from a cost saving perspective, that cost say that cost actually went down by 88%. So it is indeed the best of both worlds, if you will. >> Yeah, you know, maybe explain that more a little bit more, if you could, yeah. Because, right, you want that scalability, you want high performance, but, you know, there's always been those architectural trade offs. So what is it that Actifio does, you're talking about the object storage that pairing with the Cloud capabilities? Help us understand, you know, what is differentiated about that solution? >> Yeah, absolutely, so I think in some ways, object storage has been getting a bad rap in terms of people's perception of slow performance and so on, so forth. But I think the real reason is because other vendors aren't using it incorrectly if you will. A lot of things we've seen in the past has, like legacy backup vendors taking sort of a looking at object storage as they tape replacement. With all object storage system, there is a fundamental limit on a per object performance you can get out the entire object infrastructure. But really the secret sauce Actifio came up with is to design an infrastructure that natively translate block or file storage that for example, Oracle SQL consumes, and then taking that data, sort of, if you will, from the application perspective, and divided into hundreds of thousands if not millions of objects and that can be spread across the entire object storage infrastructure. And this is how we get you get the performance if you will. That's very very similar if not almost identical to SSD even on object storage. >> Yeah, I saw a blog post on the Actifio site making a comparison to the SnowFlake database, of course, you know, super hot company lots of adoption in their Cloud service, help us understand a little bit, you know that that comparison that your team is making? >> Yeah, absolutely, I think it's a very interesting insight. I think both Actifio and SnowFlake probably independently arrived at the same conclusion about four or five years ago, that object storage is the foundation building block. And this is how you scale massive infrastructure at a cost that's effective for our business models, right? So I think, in many ways, if you look at how SnowFlakes works is they leverage this almost infinite scalability of object storage to consume sort of this data lake to store this data lake, and therefore they can effectively offer that basic service to your customer at a very low cost point. And then when they actually decide, the customer decide to use that information, this is where the business model works and they actually did start charging the customer. So that foundation building block of object storage on, you know, in terms of the fundamental building block for the SnowFlake service, I would argue is also the reasons why they're so popular today. >> Yeah, and David, you know, we've seen, you know, quite a change in the landscape since the early days of Actifio, it's interesting to hear you talk about those analogies with some of those, you know, Cloud native solutions. Give us a little bit of inside, you're the Chief Product officer. You know, what's the biggest change you'd say of Actifio today versus, you know, maybe how, when people first heard of their copy data management, you know, technology? >> Yeah, I would say I think we were kind of fortunate that when we started the company, the fundamental premise of being very efficient, very scalable, and instant reuse is a sort of fundamental premise of our product and architecture that has held true through technology evolution, you know, three or four different waves in the last, I would say 10 years. So I think what's currently the biggest difference between I would say, now versus Actifio five years ago, is that everything with everything we do, we're thinking Cloud first. This is how, you know, essentially, the Actifio platform has evolved into this normalization platform for enterprise customer to achieve the same RPOs and RTO the same applications and be able to using the some of the same building blocks across both their you know, hybrid infrastructure and also public Cloud infrastructure. >> Yeah, absolutely, that hybrid discussion has really dominated a lot of discussion the last couple of years. A challenge for, you know, the engineering teams is architecting into those environments. It's not just once you've got Amazon, you've got Azure, you've got Google, you've got others out there. What do you say? It doesn't feel like we have a standardization. And there's specific work that you need to do. But your ultimate customer, they want to be able to do it the same way no matter where they are. Give us a little bit of what you know, what you're seeing is some of the challenges and how Actifio is facing that. >> Yeah, I think there are fundamentally two ways to go to the Cloud. I think one is to entirely consume a log or higher log of functionality that Amazon Google and Azure has, right? That mean that does mean rewriting your application from scratch to take advantage of that. I think some of the benefit there is you have some very low entry cost and you don't have to worry about operationally how to keep that going. But I think more commonly, what we're seeing customer enterprise customer do is to taking their existing stack, rewriting portions of this and kind of build it on EC2 you know, and a container environment. And those are sort of I think, more of the more popular choices that people are making in terms of making the move to the Cloud at least from my enterprise customer perspective. And that is an area that Actifio could really help, by again, normalizing what they're familiar with on premise to the Cloud and we can provide the same service level and provide really this level of flexibility for you to shift workloads back and forth to make that work for your business case. >> Yeah, I'm curious, I remember back you talked about Actifio five years ago, and some of the early days it was like, "Well, you know, the traditional storage companies might not like Actifio because at the end of the day, they're going to sell less capacity. And that's really how they price things." Feels like the Cloud providers, think about it very different, you don't really think as much about, you know, "I don't buy capacity, I have scalability, I build out my applications in a certain way." Do you see that Cloud model taking over any other comparisons you'd make kind of the Cloud world versus the data center world? >> Yeah, I think it really I think that really the switches is very, very telling, right? It's very, I would say in some ways surprised a lot of people at the pace and and that it has happened. But I think it is, that pace is pretty solid at this point. I mean, we are seeing broad adoption of sort of that strategy all over the world, and it's only accelerating. >> All right, final question I have let's bring it on home that next normal, what do you want customers to have as their takeaway from this year's data driven event? >> I think they are, I think the probably the most important thing we want to communicate to our customer and potential prospect is that you can have the best of both world, right? It's not a one or two or other decision you have to make, you could be in the Cloud and enjoy a lot of the same benefits and saw a lot of the same service level that you're used to, but taken advantage of that, you know, there is a separate, very large company running world class operations for you in the Cloud. The elasticity of that capability is very important as well. But with Actifio without having to rewrite your application per se, you can have advantage if you will to of the new world, still maintaining the presence of the old and you can manage both environment in the same way. >> David Chang, thank you so much for the updates. Great to catch up with you and thanks for having us at the event. >> Thank you, Stu for having me. >> I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Actifio data driven 2020 brought to you by Actifio. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman. This is the cubes coverage of Actifio data driven, happy to welcome to the program, the Co-founder and Chief Product Officer David Chang with Actifio. Thanks so much for joining us. Great to have you back on theCUBE. >> Great to be here, Stu, thank you. >> All right, so the big theme of the event is the next normal, of course, we've been talking about transformation of data for many years, but the global pandemic has put a real emphasis on some of the transformations that customers are going through and alluding to that next normal because definitely things have changed a bit. What, give us if you could kind of a high level, you know what you've been seeing, you've been there since the start for Actifio. So, you know, what is that next normal for customers? >> Yeah, absolutely, so I would say over the span of the last two years, we've seen definitely a accelerated ramp into the Clouds. But I think this whole pandemic has really accelerated. I mean, this really telltale sign came in, we actually, prior to the pandemic hit, we closed a large European customer. And within a span of two weeks, they were saying, you know, "I can't get access to my data center for all the important work that I have to do." And with Actifio like to move everything into the Cloud. So within the span of three weeks, we were able to move a lot of their critical workloads with them. So I think that gave us the telltale sign that this thing is really truly accelerating. >> Yeah, it absolutely there's that acceleration. It's tough to move data, though. It's not like we can just say, "Okay, hey, you know, we've got petabytes, you know, that the laws of physics still are in place." And also with that move to Cloud, you know, backup and recovery, you know, disaster recovery, you know, still critically important so and any learnings that you've had this year or things where you've had to, you know, help out customers, as they say, "We need to move fast, but we also need to stay secure. And we need to make sure that our data is safe." >> Absolutely, so I think there's a major difference between the lift and shift model in terms of your way at your application infrastructure, and then the actual foundation, building block you're using those pieces are very difficult to lift and shift, because Cloud fundamentally present different set of building blocks. A great example here is that object storage, you know, it's the most scalable and lowest cost storage available in the public sort of Cloud hyperscaler infrastructure. And without that, trying to move to the Cloud would be very difficult indeed, trying to make the infrastructure match. >> So let's dig in and talk a little bit about how Cloud really transforms storage, you know, back in the storage industry, we've talked for a long time that you know, object was the future and that's, what Cloud was built on. So you've got large scalability, you've got some great cost efficiencies. You know, what does that mean for the Actifio solutions and your customer? >> Yeah, I think from the very beginning, I would say recall this conversation three or four years ago, when we were looking at what are some of the next generation architecture we want to build the Actifio technology on? It was very clearly that object storage needs to be front and center in everything we do. It's not a it's a maybe a little known fact. But Amazon AWS service initially started with the S3 architecture and that was the very first service they brought live within the AWS sort of product portfolio. So it is as fundamental to the Cloud as you know, EC2 more so than containers and so on and so forth. And the fact that you have this almost linear scalability horizontally to exabytes of storage and the fact that you can essentially leverage all the performance you need to get out the object storage that's all built into the environment. Those are some of the critical pieces and obviously, the low cost, you know, compared with SSD or spinning drives on the on the EC2 environment, those are all some of the critical elements on why object storage is so critical in this whole Cloud migration, if you will. >> Yeah, I wonder if we could talk a little bit about the application sort of things because of course, the architecture matters, but it's really the the outcomes, it's the reason we have infrastructures for the applications and of course one of the most mission critical applications. We've talked about data, it's those databases. We've seen a lot of transformation in the database world. Most customers I talked to now, it's not their one central source of truth. They now have many databases, especially in the Cloud we've seen that kind of Cambrian explosion of options out there. What does that meant for your customers? You know, take us inside, you know, that most important database world. >> Yeah, I think any customer with their interest to go into the Cloud or minimize the on premise environment anyway, the very first thing they think about is what are I most critical application I need to move right? Database are typically it. You know, there are companies that has a lot of, I would say, projects around migrating some of the traditional databases into NoSQL, or even hosted services like RDS. But I would say the vast majority of the database population that's in fact, that's essentially in production today are some of the traditional databases. So that tend to be also tend to be the most difficult problem in terms of trying to migrate the workload to the Cloud or DR or business continuity into the Cloud. >> So David, how about you know what is new from Actifio now? What should customers be looking at when we talk about the storage capabilities? >> So I would say the first thing is that Actifio allow our customers to kind of maintain the legacy databases they use. And by using Actifio, we normalize the entire Cloud infrastructures. So you can get all the same RPOs and RTOs that you're used to on premise into the Cloud. And through the adoption or of object storage down deep into their foundation blocks of our architecture, now, you can have sort of the best of both world. You can have this on demand capability or using from the public Clouds. You are, you know, getting capability as you need them. But also you can leverage sort of object storage without changing your application architecture, to get that performance and get to the sort of the cost point that you need to make that entire business viable. I think relatively recently, we did ESG sort of project that really validated that you can get 95 to 97% of the performance of SSD, but rather on object storage. And from a cost saving perspective, that cost say that cost actually went down by 88%. So it is indeed the best of both worlds, if you will. >> Yeah, you know, maybe explain that more a little bit more, if you could, yeah. Because, right, you want that scalability, you want high performance, but, you know, there's always been those architectural trade offs. So what is it that Actifio does, you're talking about the object storage that pairing with the Cloud capabilities? Help us understand, you know, what is differentiated about that solution? >> Yeah, absolutely, so I think in some ways, object storage has been getting a bad rap in terms of people's perception of slow performance and so on, so forth. But I think the real reason is because other vendors aren't using it incorrectly if you will. A lot of things we've seen in the past has, like legacy backup vendors taking sort of a looking at object storage as they tape replacement. With all object storage system, there is a fundamental limit on a poor object performance you can get out the entire object infrastructure. But really the secret sauce Actifio came up with is to design an infrastructure that natively translate block or file storage that for example, Oracle SQL consumes, and then taking that data, sort of, if you will, from the application perspective, and divided into hundreds of thousands if not millions of objects and that can be spread across the entire object storage infrastructure. And this is how we get you get the performance if you will. That's very very similar if not almost identical to SSD even on object storage. >> Yeah, I saw a blog post on the Actifio site making a comparison to the SnowFlake database, of course, you know, super hot company lots of adoption in their Cloud service, help us understand a little bit, you know that that comparison that your team is making? >> Yeah, absolutely, I think it's a very interesting insight. I think both Actifio and SnowFlake probably independently arrived at the same conclusion about four or five years ago, that object storage is the foundation building block. And this is how you scale massive infrastructure at a cost that's effective for our business models, right? So I think, in many ways, if you look at how SnowFlakes works is they leverage this almost infinite scalability of object storage to consume sort of this data lake to store this data lake, and therefore they can effectively offer that basic service to your customer at a very low cost point. And then when they actually decide, the customer decide to use that information, this is where the business model works and they actually did start charging the customer. So that foundation building block of object storage on, you know, in terms of the fundamental building block for the SnowFlake service, I would argue is also the reasons why they're so popular today. >> Yeah, and David, you know, we've seen, you know, quite a change in the landscape since the early days of Actifio, it's interesting to hear you talk about those analogies with some of those, you know, Cloud native solutions. Give us a little bit of inside, you're the Chief Product officer. You know, what's the biggest change you'd say of Actifio today versus, you know, maybe how, when people first heard of their copy data management, you know, technology? >> Yeah, I would say I think we were kind of fortunate that when we started the company, the fundamental premise of being very efficient, very scalable, and instant reuse is a sort of fundamental premise of our product and architecture that has held true through technology evolution, you know, three or four different waves in the last, I would say 10 years. So I think what's currently the biggest difference between I would say, now versus Actifio five years ago, is that everything with everything we do, we're thinking Cloud first. This is how, you know, essentially, the Actifio platform has evolved into this normalization platform for enterprise customer to achieve the same RPOs and RTO the same applications and be able to using the some of the same building blocks across both their you know, hybrid infrastructure and also public Cloud infrastructure. >> Yeah, absolutely, that hybrid discussion has really dominated a lot of discussion the last couple of years. A challenge for, you know, the engineering teams is architecting into those environments. It's not just once you've got Amazon, you've got Azure, you've got Google, you've got others out there. What do you say? It doesn't feel like we have a standardization. And there's specific work that you need to do. But your ultimate customer, they want to be able to do it the same way no matter where they are. Give us a little bit of what you know, what you're seeing is some of the challenges and how Actifio is facing that. >> Yeah, I think there are fundamentally two ways to go to the Cloud. I think one is to entirely consume a log or higher log of functionality that Amazon Google and Azure has, right? That mean that does mean rewriting your application from scratch to take advantage of that. I think some of the benefit there is you have some very low entry cost and you don't have to worry about operationally how to keep that going. But I think more commonly, what we're seeing customer enterprise customer do is to taking their existing stack, rewriting portions of this and kind of build it on EC2 you know, and a container environment. And those are sort of I think, more of the more popular choices that people are making in terms of making the move to the Cloud at least from my enterprise customer perspective. And that is an area that Actifio could really help, by again, normalizing what they're familiar with on premise to the Cloud and we can provide the same service level and provide really this level of flexibility for you to shift workloads back and forth to make that work for your business case. >> Yeah, I'm curious, I remember back you talked about Actifio five years ago, and some of the early days it was like, "Well, you know, the traditional storage companies might not like Actifio because at the end of the day, they're going to sell less capacity. And that's really how they price things." Feels like the Cloud providers, think about it very different, you don't really think as much about, you know, "I don't buy capacity, I have scalability, I build out my applications in a certain way." Do you see that Cloud model taking over any other comparisons you'd make kind of the Cloud world versus the data center world? >> Yeah, I think it really I think that really the switches is very, very telling, right? It's very, I would say in some ways surprised a lot of people at the pace and and that it has happened. But I think it is, that pace is pretty solid at this point. I mean, we are seeing broad adoption of sort of that strategy all over the world, and it's only accelerating. >> All right, final question I have let's bring it on home that next normal, what do you want customers to have as their takeaway from this year's data driven event? >> I think they are, I think the probably the most important thing we want to communicate to our customer and potential prospect is that you can have the best of both world, right? It's not a one or two or other decision you have to make, you could be in the Cloud and enjoy a lot of the same benefits and saw a lot of the same service level that you're used to, but taken advantage of that, you know, there is a separate, very large company running world class operations for you in the Cloud. The elasticity of that capability is very important as well. But with Actifio without having to rewrite your application per se, you can have advantage if you will to of the new world, still maintaining the presence of the old and you can manage both environment in the same way. >> David Chang, thank you so much for the updates. Great to catch up with you and thanks for having us at the event. >> Thank you, Stu for having me. >> I'm Stu Miniman, and thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Presenter: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders around the globe, these are cloud native insights. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, the host of Cloud Native Insights. When we launched this program, we talked about, how do we take advantage of the innovation and agility that's in the cloud? And of course, one of the big components that we've talked about for many years on theCUBE is, how do we empower developers? and developers are helping change things, and I'm really happy to welcome to the program first time guests that helped build many of the tools that developers are very well familiar. So Tom Preston Werner, he is the co-founder of Chatterbug, he is the creator of redwoodjs, we had an early episode, the JAMstack Netlify team, he's also on the board for that, and we'll talk about those pieces. People might know him, if you check him out on Wikipedia, you know, GitHub, he was one of the co-founders as well as held both CTO and CEO roles there. I could go on but Tom, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> All right, so let's start there, Tom, you know, when I live in the enterprise space, how do you take advantage of new things? One of the biggest challenges out there is, let's go to something new, but let's do it the old way. And we know that that really doesn't take advantage of it you know, I think back to the oldest, some of the older technologies, it's like, well, you know, if I talk to people that are riding horses, what do they want? You know, well, I want faster horses, not the, you know, let's completely change things. I was hearing a stat that, you know, back in the early days of cars, we had like, 30% of them were electric cars, and now it's one. So what's old is new again, but I digress. One, as I mentioned, you know, GitHub, of course, is, you know, such a fundamental piece when we look at in the technology space over the last decade, you know, get in general, GitHub, specifically, of course, has created so much value engaged, you know, just millions and millions of developers and transform businesses. Take us back a little bit and you know, like to get your philosophy on, you know, building tools, how do you do it? How do you think about it? And what's inspired you? >> Yeah, I think it goes a long way back to just wanting to build things for the community. One of the first big projects I worked on was called Gravatar, and I remember laying in bed staring at the ceiling, just trying to think up some idea that that would contribute to what we then called The Blogosphere, and I came up with an idea for avatars that would follow you around and I coded it up and I got it out to a few bloggers and they started using it, and it caught on and it was really, it really introduced me to this idea that no matter who you are, where you come from, or what your background is, you know, I grew up in Iowa, things are very different there. And with with the Internet, and the ability to code, you can impact the world in really significant ways. And so it follows on from there, and I think GitHub is an extension of that desire to really put things into the world that will be useful for people, and knowing that, if you have the ability to code and especially with the advent of web applications as a common tool, there's such power in that you have global reach, you just need a computer and the ability to code and you can create these things, and GitHub kind of became that. It was just, it started out really as a side project, and I hoped that someday it would be able to support me to work on it full time. But I, we started building it just because we wanted it to exist. And that's most of what I work on is, is just ideas that I want to exist in the world. >> Yeah, it's been one of those great trends to watch at, you know, there were certain technologies that used to have to be a nation state, or, you know, one of the one of the global 50 companies to take advantage of it. Now, tools like GitHub, making it so that, you know, the smallest company or even the individuals can participate in communities, can create and build you know, the building is such an important theme. So Maybe, let's fast forward a little bit if we would, I mentioned Netlify and JAMstack, you talked about the blogosphere, that team is helping to really reinvent how we think about the web, you know, it's real time, It's high performance, and you know, we need to be able to get that to where everybody is. So, you know, back in the early days, web pages, you know, relatively static and, you know, had certain criteria, and now, of course, you know, edge devices and the global population change things. So, you know, you, you've been engaged in a, you know, huge supporter of that project, and that'll lead us towards the redwoods discussion, but maybe bring us as to how you got involved there, and what got you excited? >> Well, like you said, Everything old is new again and I think that's true in fashion. It's also true in technology, in a lot of ways, and the JAMstack really is taking these old ideas where the web started, taking files and just serving them as static files and it's super fast, and it's extremely secure. This is how the internet started, and now we've sort of come full circle. But we've added a lot of really nice things and workflows on top of that. And so my journey into the JAMstack, I suppose, started more than a decade ago, when I started working on a project called Jekyll, that's a, I called it at the time, A Blog Aware Static Site Generator. So you would write your blog articles, and you would run it through Jekyll, and that would take your markdown, you'd write your articles in markdown, and it would combine them with a, some kind of a theme that you would have, and that would output static pages that represented your blog, and then you could serve those from any kind of static blog serving system. GitHub had has one built in called GitHub Pages, and so we ended up adopting Jekyll for GitHub Pages. So everything that you put up on GitHub Pages. would be run through Jekyll, and so it was a really natural place to put your blog. And so I had a blog post, one of my blog posts using Jekyll was called Blogging Like A Hacker. And it was this idea that you don't need WordPress, you don't need to have a database somewhere that's, that's hackable, that's going to cause you security problems, all the WordPress admin stuff that constantly is being attacked. You don't need all that, like you can just write articles in flat files, and then turn them into a blog statically and then put those up to serve them somewhere, right? And so when I say it like that, it sounds a little bit like the JAMstack, right? That's not how we thought about it at the time, because it was really hard to do dynamic things. So if you wanted to have comments on your blog for instance, then you needed to have some third party service that you would embed a component onto your blog, so you could receive comments. And so you had to start gluing things together, but even then, again, that sounds a little bit like the JAMstack. So it's all of these ideas that have been, evolving over the last decade to 15 years, that now we finally have an entire tool chain and adding Git on top of that and Git based workflows, and being able to push to GitHub and someone like Netlify can pick those up and publish them, and you have all these third party services that you can glue together without having to build them yourself. All of the billing things, like there's just the ecosystem is so much more advanced now, so many more bits are available for you to piece together that in a very short amount of time, you can have an extremely performant site capable of taking payments, and doing all of the dynamic things that we want to do. Well, many, I should say many of the dynamic things that we want to do, and it's fast and secure. So it's like the web used to be when the web started, but, now you can do all the modern things that you want to do. >> You're giving me flashbacks remembering how I glued discus into my Tumblr instance when that was rolling out. (laughing) >> That's what I was referring to, discuss. >> Yeah, so absolutely, you talk about there's just such a robust ecosystem out there, and one of the real challenges we have out there is, people will come in and they say, "Oh my gosh, where do I start?" And it's like, well, where do you want to go? There's the Paradox of Choice, and that I believe is one of the things that led you to create Redwoods. So help explain to our audience you know, you created this project Redwood, it related to JAMstack, but, but I'll let you explain you know, what it is in life needed? >> Yeah, Redwood is a response to a couple of things. One of those things, is the JavaScript world has, as everything has evolved in tremendous way, in all kinds of ways and almost entirely positive I think. The language itself has been improved so much from when I was a teenager using view source and copy pasting stuff into you know, some random X Files fan site. To now it's a first class language I can compete with with everything, from a ergonomics perspective. I really enjoy programming in it and I come from a Ruby, Ruby on Rails background and now I'm very happy in JavaScript that was not true even five, seven years ago, right? So JavaScript itself has changed a lot. Along with that comes NPM in the whole packaging universe, of availability of modules, right? So most of the things that you want to do, you can go and you can search and find code that's going to do those things for you, and so being able to, to just pull those into your projects so easily. That is amazing, right? The power that that gives you is tremendous. The problem comes in when, like you said, you have the Paradox of Choice. Now you have, not just one way to do something, but you have 100 ways to do something, right? And now as a as a developer, and especially as a new developer, someone who's just learning how to build web applications, you come into this and you say, all you see is the complexity, just overwhelming complexity, and every language goes through this. They go through a phase of sort of this Cambrian explosion of possibilities as people get excited, and you see that the web is embracing these technologies, and you see what's possible. Everyone gets excited and involved and starts creating solution after solution after solution, often times to the same problems. And that's a good thing, right, like exploring the territory is a good and necessary part of the evolution of programming languages and programming ecosystems. But there's comes a time where that becomes overwhelming and starts to trend towards being a negative. And so at Chatterbug, which is a foreign language learning service, if you want to learn how to speak French or Spanish or German, we'll help you do that, as part of that work, we started using react on the front end, because I really love what react brings you from a JavaScript and interactivity perspective. But along with react, you have to make about 50 other choices of technologies to use to actually create a fully capable website, something for state management, you got to choose a way to do JavaScript or sorry, CSS. There's 100 things that you have to choose, and it's, it seems very arbitrary and you go through a lot of churn, you choose one, and then the next day an article comes out and then people raving about another one, and then you choose, you're like, Oh, that one looks really nice. You know, grass is always greener, and so Redwood is a bit of a, an answer to that, or a response to that, which is to say, we've learned a lot of things now about what works in building with react, especially on the front end. And what I really want to do is have a tool that's more like Ruby on Rails, where I come from, having done years and years of Ruby on Rails, what GitHub was built with. And Ruby on Rails presents to you a fully capable web application framework that has made all the choices or most of the choices, many of the important choices. And the same is kind of missing in the JavaScript TypeScript world and so, when I saw Netlify come out with their feature where you could commit the code for a lambda function to your repository, and if you push that up to GitHub, Netlify will grab it, and they will orchestrate deploying that code to an AWS lambda so that you can run business logic in a lambda but without having to touch AWS, because touching AWS is another gigantic piece of complexity, and their user interfaces are sometimes challenging, I'll say. That, that then made me think that, here finally is the ability to combine everything that's awesome about the JAMstack and static files, and security, and this workflow, with the ability to do business logic, and that sounded to me like the makings of a full stack web application framework, and I kept waiting for someone to come out and be like, hey, tada, like we glued this all together, and here's your thing, that's rails, but for the JAMstack, JavaScript, TypeScript world and nobody was doing it. And so I started working on it myself, and that has become Redwoodjs. >> It's one of the things that excited me the early days when I looked into Serverless was that, that low bar to entry, you know, I didn't have to have, you know, a CS degree or five years of understanding a certain code base to be able to take advantage of it. Feels like you're hoping to extend that, it believe it's one of your passions, you know, helping with with Chatterbug and like, you know, helping people with that learning. What do you feel is the state out there? What's your thoughts about kind of the future of jobs, when it when it comes to this space? >> I think the future of jobs in technology and especially software development is, I mean, there is no, there is no better outlook for any profession than that. I mean, this is the, this is where the world is going, more and more of what we want to accomplish, we do in software and it happens across every industry. I mean, just look at Tesla's for instance, right? You think about automobiles and the car that you owned, you know, 10 years ago, and you're like, I don't know, I know there's a computer in here somewhere, but like, I don't really, you know, either the software for it is terrible, and you're like, who, when was the last time you actually use the navigation system in your car, right? You just like get like just turn that off because it's, it's so horrible. And then Tesla comes along and says, hey, what if we actually made all this stuff useful, and had a thoughtful interface and essentially built a car that where everything was controlled with software, and so now cars are are basically software wrapped in hardware, and the experience is amazing. And the same is true of everything, look at your, look at how many things that your phone has replaced that used to be physical devices. Look at manufacturing processes, look at any any element of bureaucracy, all of this stuff is mediated by computers, and oftentimes it's done badly. But this just shows how much opportunity there is speaking of like governmental websites, right, you go to the DMV, and you try to schedule an appointment, and you just have no confidence that that's going to work out because the interfaces feel like they were written 15 years ago, and sometimes I think they were, written that long ago. But there's so much, there's still so much improvement to be had and all of that is going to take developers to do it. Unless, you know, we figure out how to get AI to do it for us, and there's been some very interesting things lately around that angle, but to me, it's, humans will always be involved. And so, at some level, humans are telling machines what to do, whether you're doing it more or less directly, and having the ability to tell machines what to do gives you tremendous leverage. >> Yeah, we're big fans, if you know Erik Bryjolfsson and Andy McAfee from MIT, they've, you know, are very adamant that it's the combination of people plus machines that always will win against either people alone or machines alone. Tom, what, you know, right now we're in the middle of a global pandemic, there're financially, there's a lot of bad news around the globe right now. I've talked to many entrepreneurs that said, well, a downturn market is actually a great time to start something new. You're an investor, you've helped build lots of things. We talked a lot about lowering the bar for people to create and build new things. What do you see are some of the opportunities out there, if you know, you had to recommend for the entrepreneurs out there? Where should they be looking? >> I'd say look at all of the things in your life that have become challenging, because where there's challenge, where there's pain, there's opportunity for solutions. And especially when there's a big environmental change, which we see right now, with COVID-19, obviously has changed a lot of our behaviors and made some of the things that used to be easy. It's made those a lot harder, and so you see, certain segments of the economy are doing extremely well, namely technology and things that allow us to do interviews like this instead of in person, and so those industries are doing extremely well. So you look at the you look at the stock market in the United States, and it's it's very interesting, because while much of the country is suffering, the people that are already wealthy are doing very well, and technology companies are doing very well. And so the question for me is, what are the opportunities that we have, leveraging technology in the internet, to where we can create more opportunities for more people, to get people back to work, right? I think there's so much opportunity there. Just look at education, like the entire concept of educating kids right now and I have three. So we feel this very much, it has been turned on its head. And so we so you see many people looking for solutions in that space, and that's, I think that's as it should be. When things get, when things get challenged when our, our normal daily experience is so radically changed, there's opportunity there, because people are willing to change more quickly in a crisis, right? Because you need, you need something like any solution. And so some choice is going to be made, and where that's happening, then you can find early adopters more easily, than you can under other circumstances, and so in economic downturns, you often see that kind of behavior where these are crisis moments for people, you have an opportunity to come in and if you have something that could solve a problem for them, then you can get a user where that may have not been a problem for a person before. So where there is, where there is a crisis, there is always opportunity to help people solve their problems in different and better ways to address that crisis. So again, it goes back to pain, you know, and it doesn't have to be the pain from a crisis. It could be a pain from from anything. Just like with GitHub, it was, it was hard to share code as developers like it was, there was too much pain, and this was, we started it in 2008, right after the housing crisis. It was unrelated to that, but it turns out that when you start a company, when the economy is depressed in a certain way, then at least you can look forward to the economy getting better as you are building your company. >> Oh, Tom, Preston Werner, thank you so much for joining pleasure talking with you. I appreciate all of your input. >> Absolutely, thanks for having me. >> I'm Stu Miniman, thank you for joining this Episode of cloud native insights. Thank you for watching the theCUBE. (light music)

>> From around the globe, it's theCUBE! With coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020, virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2020 in Europe. Of course the event this year was supposed to be in the Netherlands, I know I was very much looking forward to going to Amsterdam. This year of course it's going to be virtual, I'm really excited theCUBE's coverage, we've got some great members of the CNCF, we've got a bunch of end users, we've got some good thought leaders, and I'm also bringing a little bit of the Netherlands to help me bring in and start this keynote analysis, happy to welcome back to the program my cohost for the show, Joep Piscaer, who is an industry analyst with TLA. Thank you, Joep, so much for joining us, and we wish we could be with you in person, and check out your beautiful country. >> Absolutely, thanks for having me Stu, and I'm still a little disappointed we cannot eat the (indistinct foreign term) rijsttafel together this year. >> Oh, yeah, can we just have a segment to explain to people the wonder that is the fusion of Indonesian food and the display that you get only in the Netherlands? Rijsttafel, I seriously had checked all over the US and Canada, when I was younger, to find an equivalent, but one of my favorite culinary delights in the world, but we'll have to put a pin in that. You've had some warm weather in the Netherlands recently, and so many of the Europeans take quite a lot of time off in July and August, but we're going to talk about some hardcore tech, KubeCon, a show we love doing, the European show brings good diversity of experiences and customers from across the globe. So, let's start, the keynote, Priyanka Sharma, the new general manager of the CNCF, of course, just some really smart people that come out and talk about a lot of things. And since it's a foundation show, there's some news in there, but it's more about how they're helping corral all of these projects, of course, a theme we've talked about for a while is KubeCon was the big discussion for many years about Kubernetes, still important, and we'll talk about that, but so many different projects and everything from the sandbox, their incubation, through when they become fully, generally available, so, I guess I'll let you start and step back and say when you look at this broad ecosystem, you work with vendors, you've been from the customer side, what's top of mind for you, what's catching your attention? >> So, I guess from a cloud-native perspective, looking at the CNCF, I think you hit the nail on the head. This is not about any individual technology, isn't about just Kubernetes or just Prometheus, or just service mesh. I think the added value of the CNCF, and the way I look at it at least, looking back at my customer perspective, I would've loved to have a organization curate the technology world around me, for me. To help me out with the decisions on a technology perspective that I needed to make to kind of move forward with my IT stack, and with the requirements my customer had, or my organization had, to kind of move that into the next phase. That is where I see the CNCF come in and do their job really well, to help organizations, both on the vendor side as well as on the customer side, take that next step, see around the corner, what's new, what's coming, and also make sure that between different, maybe even competing standards, the right ones surface up and become the de facto standard for organizations to use. >> Yeah, a lot of good thoughts there, Joep, I want to walk through that stack a little bit, but before we do, big statement that Priyanka made, I thought it was a nice umbrella for her keynote, it's a foundation of doers powering end user driven open-source, so as I mentioned, you worked at a service provider, you've done strategies for some other large organizations, what's your thought on the role of how the end users engage with and contribute to open-source? One of the great findings I saw a couple years ago, as you said, it went from open-source being something that people did on the weekend to the sides, to many end users, and of course lots of vendors, have full-time people that their jobs are to contribute and participate in the open-source communities. >> Yeah, I guess that kind of signals a maturity in the market to me, where organizations are investing in open-source because they know they're going to get something out of it. So back in the day, it was not necessarily certain that if you put a lot of effort into an open-source project, for your own gain, for your own purposes, that that would work out, and that with the backing of the CNCF, as well as so many member organizations and end user organizations, I think participating in open-source becomes easier, because there's more of a guarantee that what you put in will kind of circulate, and come out and have value for you, in a different way. Because if you're working on a service mesh, some other organization might be working on Prometheus, or Kubernetes, or another project, and some organizations are now kind of helping each other with the CNCF as the gatekeeper, to move all of those technology stacks forward, instead of everyone doing it for themselves. Maybe even being forced to reinvent the wheel for some of those technology components. >> So let's walk through the stack a little bit, and the layers that are out there, so let's start with Kubernetes, the discussion has been Kubernetes won the container orchestration battles, but whose Kubernetes am I going to use? For a while it was would it be distributions, we've seen every platform basically has at least one Kubernetes option built into it, so doesn't mean you're necessarily using this, before AWS had their own flavor of Kubernetes, there was at least 15 different ways that you could run Kubernetes on top of it, but now they have ECS, they have EKS, even things like Fargate now work with EKS, so interesting innovation and adoption there. But VMware baked Kubernetes into vSphere 7. Red Hat of course, with OpenShift, has thousands of customers and has great momentum, we saw SUSE buy Rancher to help them move along and make sure that they get embedded there. One of the startups you've worked with, Spectro Cloud, helps play into the mix there, so there is no shortage of options, and then from a management standpoint, companies like Microsoft, Google, VMware, Red Hat, all, how do I manage across clusters, because it's not going to just be one Kubernetes that you're going to use, we're expecting that you're going to have multiple options out there, so it sure doesn't sound boring to me yet, or reached full maturity, Joep. What's your take, what advice do you give to people out there when they say "Hey, okay, I'm going to use Kubernetes," I've got hybrid cloud, or I probably have a couple things, how should they be approaching that and thinking about how they engage with Kubernetes? >> So that's a difficult one, because it can go so many different ways, just because, like you said, the market is maturing. Which means, we're kind of back at where we left off virtualization a couple years ago, where we had managers of managers, managing across different data centers, doing the multicloud thing before it was a cloud thing. We have automation doing day two operations, I saw one of the announcements for this week will be a vendor coming out with day two operations automation, to kind of help simplify that stack of Kubernetes in production. And so the best advice I think I have is, don't try to do it all yourself, right, so Kubernetes is still maturing, it is still fairly open, in a sense that you can change everything, which makes it fairly complex to use and configure. So don't try and do that part yourself, necessarily, either use a managed service, which there are a bunch of, Spectro Cloud, for example, as well as Platform9, even the bigger players are now having those platforms. Because in the end, Kubernetes is kind of the foundation of what you're going to do on top of it. Kubernetes itself doesn't have business value in that sense, so spending a lot of time, especially at the beginning of a project, figuring that part out, I don't think makes sense, especially if the risk and the impact of making mistakes is fairly large. Like, make a mistake in a monitoring product, and you'll be able to fix that problem more easily. But make a mistake in a Kubernetes platform, and that's much more difficult, especially because I see organizations build one cluster to rule them all, instead of leveraging what the cloud offers, which is just spin up another cluster. Even spin it up somewhere else, because we can now do the multicloud thing, we can now manage applications across Kubernetes clusters, we can manage many different clusters from a single pane of glass, so there's really no reason anymore to see that Kubernetes thing as something really difficult that you have to do yourself, hence just do it once. Instead, my recommendation would be to look at your processes and figure out, how can I figure out how to have a Kubernetes cluster for everything I do, maybe that's per team, maybe that's per application or per environment, per cloud, and they kind of work from that, because, again, Kubernetes is not the holy grail, it's not the end state, it is a means to an end, to get where we're going with applications, with developing new functionality for customers. >> Well, I think you hit on a really important point, if you look out in the social discussion, sometimes Kubernetes and multicloud get attacked, because when I talk to customers, they shouldn't have a Kubernetes strategy. They have their business strategy, and there are certain things that they're trying to, "How do I make sure everything's secure," and I'm looking at DevSecOps, I need to really have an edge computing strategy because that's going to help my business objectives, and when I look at some of the tools that are going to help and get me there, well, Kubernetes, the service meshes, some of the other tools in the CNCF are going to help me get there, and as you said, I've got managed services, cloud providers, integrators are going to help me build those solutions without me having to spend years to understand how to do that. So yeah, I'd love to hear any interesting projects you're hearing about, edge computing, the security space has gone from super important to even more important if that's possible in 2020. What are you hearing? >> Yeah, so the most interesting part for me is definitely the DevSecOps movement, where we're basically not even allowed to call it DevOps anymore. Security has finally gained a foothold, they're finally able to shift lift the security practices into the realm of developers, simplifying it in a way, and automating it in a way that, it's no longer a trivial task to integrate security. And there's a lot of companies supporting that, even from a Kubernetes perspective, integrating with Kubernetes or integrating with networking products on top of Kubernetes. And I think we finally have reached a moment in time where security is no longer something that we really need to think about. Again, because CNCF is kind of helping us select the right projects, helping us in the right direction, so that making choices in the security realm becomes easier, and becomes a no-brainer for teams, special security teams, as well as the application development teams, to integrate security. >> Well, Joep, I'm glad to hear we've solved security, we can all go home now. That's awesome. But no, in all seriousness, such an important piece, lots of companies spending time on there, and it does feel that we are starting to get the process and organization around, so that we can attack these challenges a little bit more head-on. How 'about service mesh, it's one of those things that's been a little bit contentious the last couple of years, of course ahead of the show, Google is not donating Istio to the foundation, instead, the trademark's open. I'm going to have an interview with Liz Rice to dig into that piece, in the chess moves, Microsoft is now putting out a service mesh, so as Corey Quinn says, the plural of service mesh must be service meeshes, so, it feels like Mr. Meeseeks, for any Rick and Morty fans, we just keep pressing the button and more of them appear, which may cause us more trouble, but, what's your take, do you have a service mesh coming out, Kelsey Hightower had a fun little thing on Twitter about it, what's the state of the state? >> Yeah, so I won't be publishing a service mesh, maybe I'll try and rickroll someone, but we'll see what happens. But service meshes are, they're still a hot topic, it's still one of the spaces where most discussion is kind of geared towards. There is yet to form a single standard, there is yet a single block of companies creating a front to solve that service mesh issue, and I think that's because in the end, service meshes are, from a complexity perspective, they're not mature enough to be able to commoditize into a standard. I think we still need a little while, and maybe ask me this question next year again, and we'll see what happens. But we'll still need a little while to kind of let this market shift and let this market innovate, because I don't think we've reached the end state with service meshes. Also kind of gauging from customer interest and actual production implementations, I don't think this has trickled down from the largest companies that have the most requirements into the smaller companies, the smaller markets, which is something that we do usually see, now Kubernetes is definitely doing that. So in terms of service meshes, I don't think the innovation has reached that endpoint yet, and I think we'll still need a little while, which will mean for the upcoming period, that we'll kind of see this head to head from different companies, trying to gain a foothold, trying to lead a market, introduce their own products. And I think that's okay, and I think the CNCF will continue to kind of curate that experience, up to a point where maybe somewhere in the future we will have a noncompeting standard to finally have something that's commoditized and easy to implement. >> Yeah, it's an interesting piece, one of the things I've always enjoyed when I go to the show is just wander, and the things you bump into are like "Oh my gosh, wow, look at all of these cool little projects." I don't think we are going to stop that Cambrian explosion of innovation and ideas. When you go walk around there's usually over 200 vendors there, and a lot of them are opensource projects. I would say many of them, when you have a discussion with them, I'm not sure that there's necessarily a business behind that project, and that's where you also see maturity in spaces. A year or so ago, in the observability space, open tracing helped pull together a couple of pieces. Storage is starting to mature. Doesn't mean we're going to get down to one standard, there's still a couple of storage engines out there, I have some really good discussions this week to go into that, but it goes from, "Boy, storage is a mess," to "Oh, okay, we have a couple of uses," and just like storage in the data center, there's not a box or a protocol to do anything, it's what's your use case, what performance, what clouds, what environments are you living on, and therefore you can do that. So it's good to see lots of new things added, but then they mature out and they consolidate, and as you said, the CNCF is help giving those roadmaps, those maps, the landscapes, which boy, if you go online, they have some really good tools. Go to CNCF, the website, and you can look through, Cheryl Hung put one, I'm trying to remember which, it's basically a bullseye of the ones that, here's the one that's fully baked, and here's the ones that are making its way through, and the customer feedback, and they're going to do more of those to help give guidance, because no one solution is going to fit everybody's needs, and you have these spectrums of offerings. Wild card for you, are there any interesting projects out there, new things that you're hearing about, what areas should people be poking around that might not be the top level big things? >> So, I guess for me, that's really personal because I'm still kind of an infrastructure geek in that sense. So one of the things that really surprised me was a more traditional vendor, Zerto in this case, with a fantastic solution, finally, they're doing data protection for Kubernetes. And my recommendation would be to look at companies like Zerto in the data protection space, finally making that move into containers, because even though we've completed the discussion, stateful versus stateless, there's still a lot to be said for thinking about data protection, if you're going to go all-in into containers and into Kubernetes, so that was one that really provoked my thoughts, I really was interested in seeing, "Okay, what's Zerto doing in this list of CNCF members?" And for that matter, I think other vendors like VMware, like Red Hat, like other companies that are moving into this space, with a regained trust in their solutions, is something that I think is really interesting, and absolutely worth exploring during the event, to see what those more traditional companies, to use the term, are doing to innovate with their solutions, and kind of helping the CNCF and the cloud data world, become more enterprise-ready, and that's kind of the point I'm trying to make, where for the longest time, we've had this cloud-native versus traditional, but I always thought of it like cloud-native versus enterprise-ready, or proven technology. This is kind of for the developers doing a new thing, this is for the IT operations teams, and we're kind of seeing those two groups, at least from a technology perspective, being fused into one new blood group, making their way forward and innovating with those technologies. So, I think it's interesting to look at the existing vendors and the CNCF members to see where they're innovating. >> Well, Joep, you connected a dotted line between the cloud-native insights program that I've been doing, you were actually my first guest on that. We've got a couple of months worth of episodes out there, and it is closing that gap between what the developers are doing and what the enterprise was, so absolutely, there's architectural pieces, Joep, like you, I'm an infrastructure geek, so I come from those pieces, and there was that gap between, I'm going to use VMs, and now I'm using containers, and I'm looking at things like serverless too, how do we built applications, and is it that bottom-up versus top-down, and what a company's needs, they need to be able to react fast, they need to be able to change along the way, they need to be able to take advantage of the innovation that ecosystems like this have, so, I love the emphasis CNCF has, making sure that the end users are going to have a strong voice, because as you said, the big companies have come in, not just VMware and Red Hat, but, IBM and Dell are behind those two companies, and HPE, Cisco, many others out there that the behemoths out there, not to mention of course the big hyperscale clouds that helped start this, we wouldn't have a lot of this without Google kicking off with Kubernetes, AWS front and center, and an active participant here, and if you talk to the customers, they're all leveraging it, and of course Microsoft, so it is a robust, big ecosystem, Joep, thank you so much for helping us dig into it, definitely hope we can have events back in the Netherlands in the near future, and great to see you as always. >> Thanks for having me. >> All right, stay tuned, we have, as I said, full spectrum of interviews from theCUBE, they'll be broadcasting during the three days, and of course go to theCUBE.net to catch all of what we've done this year at the show, as well as all the back history. Feel free to reach out to me, I'm @Stu on Twitter, and thank you, as always, for watching theCUBE. (calm music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of Dockercon live 2020. Brought to you by, Docker, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone to the DockerCon 2020, #DockerCon20. This is The Cube virtual coverage with Docker on their event here. And we're in the studio in Palo Alto, I'm John Furrier your host of theCUBE, we're here with a great guest to talk about Docker Desktop, the Microsoft relationship, and the key news that's coming out. Ben De St Paer-Gotch is the product manager for Docker Desktop. Ben, great for coming on, thanks for spending the time with me. >> Thanks for having me, I really appreciate it. >> So obviously, this is a virtual conference, we wish we could be in person, but given the state of affairs we're going to do remotely, but the momentum Docker has is phenomenal, it's always been great with containers. It's the number one downloaded app around for developers. Microsoft just had their Build conference, which was again virtual as well, or digital, as they say, it's interchangeable. But clear momentum now with Docker as containers actually is the standard, you guys are doing great. What's the key news out of the Microsoft world for people who missed it last week with MS Build? >> Yeah, so last year at Build, Microsoft announced WSO2 to the Windows subsystem with Linux two. (mumbles) The mapping between the windows (mumbles) Which, went really well but it just didn't provide the same centered needed Linux experience. Last year, they announced Windows subsystem Linux two, (Provides an actual Linux one on windows machine, and we've been working hard with Microsoft over the last year to integrate proper desktop as a main desktop application for working with containers with WSO2. A build this year, Microsoft has gone on and announced that WSO2 is going to have a few new features, and it's going to have new features. (mumbles) Mention Linux graphical, Linux applications, you can access the file system, the installation is going to become a slicker which I guess I'm the most excited about that pitch. But the most exciting announcement is, they will be bringing GPU support to WSO2 which means that we will be able to provide and give you support through Docker desktop or container workloads that peoples are working on. And now we're launching Gray and Agua through containers and docks and desktops and Windows which is really cool because we haven't been able to do that before. >> So is this the first GPU support on Microsoft Windows for Docker, with Docker? >> It's, yeah, it's the first GPU Support for Docker Desktop or Mac or Windows. So, previously the hypervisor hasn't passed through the GPU, pretty much, which meant that we couldn't access it from Docker desktop. So Docker desktop isn't about a lightweight VM we sorts of plumb all that in for you. But we're limited about what we could get access to from the hypervisor, Microsoft putting this through and giving us access for the first time, we can actually, we can go. >> Not to go on a side tangent here, but you know, all these virtual events, and I was watching some of the build stuff as well, as well as us immediate streamers and doing stuff, you can see people's home rigs. And you talk to any Developer, video streamer, or anyone who is working remotely, if you don't have the best GPU's in there, I mean, this has just become, I mean, quite frankly, you need the GPU's. So this is important, it's not only from a vanity standpoint performance. Having that support, I'm going to want the best GPU's, I'm always going to be upgrading my machine for that extra power. What's the impact? What does it mean for me as a Developer? Does it increase stuff? What's the bottom line? >> As a Developer, it means you actually have access to it. So, especially when you're doing workloads on the CPU, you've got minimum amounts of power utilization you can do. When you're running workloads for an L Development, you have a lot of power up process you've got to log, to do your mobile training. So, in an element cycle, you're likely to have your application which you're going to use to produce a modeling, you're going to have training data. Taking that training data and producing a model requires lots of panel processing which is an enormous calculations in producing with finer waitings. Doing that on a CPU has to be done on a serial fashion rather than parallel, which is huge and intensive and takes a really long time. Whereas on a GPU, you can do all of that in parallel which massively reduces the amount of time it will take to run those training functions. Either just straight up in Linux or running them in a container, which as the more of people are looking at running container with workloads, it's how I first, the first team that I was on actually used Docker. I was working in Amazon Alexa, and my team picked up the opportunity to run our workload in container. And that was my first experience, so even though my team backed down, so I could see the system. >> Yeah, ML workloads automations could be critical of that performance. Okay, let's get into some of the momentum with Microsoft, you guys have obviously, builds over, we're here now at DockerCon, there's news. Could you share some of the tidbits for what's being talked about now with Docker and DockerCon. >> Yeah, absolutely, so, along with everything else we've been doing, we've been partnering with Microsoft trying to make the best experience generally with Docker desktop, and with WSO2 and with the VSCO. I've been working closely with Microsoft guys to actually try and improve our experience in Windows as it is today, and to improve some of those integrations with VSCO, and also working with the VSCO team on the Docker plugin for VSCO to give our feedback, and to hear feedback from those guys on the errors and issues they're seeing with Docker desktop and to really try to produce the best experience we can on Windows. End to end, from very front end running all the way through that first push, that first run on the cloud using Docker. >> So what is some of the new product management processes and customer support things that you guys are doing? This comes up a lot, obviously, we had a great conversation around shift left with security. That's great news there. You start to see a lot of this added value for Developers, wanted their support right? So how do I get things I need, and from a customer standpoint? It's kind of a moving train this world and it's only getting better and better from a Developer standpoint. But there's more complexity, it's got to be abstract the way you've got, you know, this new abstraction layers developing. You've got a lot of automation. How does the customer get the support they need in the same agile way that Developers are cranking out code? >> It's a really good question, it's something I think we're still working on as well. So, we're trying to working out and one of the big things I'm trying to work out is, how to make it easier for people to get started with Docker, and how do we also make sure with the things we build, we don't leave a cliff edge instead of a lining path. You don't get to a certain point in an easy process, and then the next step, takes you straight off a cliff, so that's not useful for anyone. So, producing those parts and those ways for people to learn and actually progress is something we're really trying to work out. How to make it natural from the first experience all the way through. From an actual support perspective, the other thing we're looking at, is we're trying to do more things in the open. We're really trying at Docker to bring as many of the new features and pieces we're developing which we have to do that in the open with community visibility, so that if people really want it fixed, they can open the PR and they can help us out. And then the last thing that my team really stood out was our Docker of having actions. As creators, someone already finished, could you do this? Someone else had a PR and emerged it. So, to a certain extent, you've got your one side which had you on board and this ever growth spiral and you keep learning. The other side is how'd you fix the board when you find an issue? In that one, we're really trying to work with the community, a lot more than we have in the last couple of years. >> Awesome, some folks watching, hit him up on Twitter, he's the Product Manager for Docker Desktop among other things. You guys are very transparent, you've got your Twitter handle on the lower third. People can chime in or just jump on the chat, we'll follow up and get you the info. Final question for you Ben, as you look at this reality we're in, there's kind of a holistic kind of moment now where people kind of realizing the new realities here. You're looking at the.. you get the keys to the kingdom with Docker Desktop, okay. You got some momentum with Microsoft, the developer role is moving fast and fast as the head room increases for capabilities with automation. And I know you mentioned a few of those things. GPU is now available. What's the future look like for these Developers? The next short, medium and long term? What's your view as you look out over the landscape because you've got to look at the product roadmap, your engagement with the community. Can you share some insight into how you're thinking about Docker Desktop going forward? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I think what really interesting point as you say, which is that, if you look at sort of a lot of the Developer side of things that have sort of come out in the last like six months, six to eighteen months. The things I see, I see daily like you mention, things like orchestrating for containers gaining momentum. If you think about crossing the Kaizen model, we're just passed the early Dockers now. We're kind of into the early majority, but we're going to start to move over the next few years into the late majority. What that really means is that people here have been using one of two of these technologies. Maybe you've been using cloud, maybe you've been using Edge, maybe you've been using containers, maybe you've been using CICD, maybe you are using Expiration, maybe you're not. Maybe you've got a Microservice application, maybe it's a little bit of a mole rat. What we're really going to see is, you're going to start to see, all of these changes intersecting and overlapping. And people who have started to pick up model two of these will start to pick up all of them. And that's probably going to happen as we move into the majority of users. So from a what's coming instead of a lot of those thing that you see in best practice in the ideal Developer setup, so a beautiful CICD, a more of an orchestrated environment, Microservice architecture, we're going to see a lot more of that becoming the norm. But I think along with that, we'll also see a level of recognition coming along that a single Microservice alone doesn't provide value. And that's it's going to be some of those groups of services that will provide the user outcome. And that's where my focus is at the end which is you know, an authentication service is great but it doesn't provide value unless you give access to something as authentic. >> It's been issued that the new Docker is all about Developer experience. This is really the core mission. I mean, since the sale of the piece of morantis, Docker has retrenched and reinvented, but stayed core to its principles. Just share with the Developers who've been watching that are coming back into the ecosystem, what is this new Docker vibe? Share your thoughts. >> The new Docker vibe is about working in the open, and it's about solving problems for Developments. The original goal of Docker was to make it easy to pack and ship. It was to reduce Developer friction. As we move more into, sort of, the enterprise space, we worry more about Ops and DevOps. We're not trying to re-focus on Developer and if you sort of think there's two parts to the Developer life cycle, where you've got your work, where you're doing your creative work, where you're writing code. And then you've sort of got your part of the inner loop. And then you've got your part where you're trying to get that code out to production, you're trying to get your value to someone else. Instead of your outer loop, we're really trying to focus on the inner loop And sort of our mantra is that any bit for a Developer should spend as much as their time as possible creating new and exciting things and we're onto those holes that reduce those boring, Monday, repetitive tasks, that we're really trying to work out how we take those boring repetitive pieces and how do we make them just vanish like magic from new users or how do we reduce the friction for the experience from users? From both desktop and hub, we're really trying to bring those two together to achieve that. >> You know what's great about folks who have been in the class since day one. All of us have scar tissue experiences, you know the one thing that's constant is constant change. And one of the things that you guys have done at Docker, and hats off to the whole, you know, original team, is that brand of Docker has symbolized quality openness, and set the standard, I mean, if you look back and containers were really coming around, it's not a new concept. But Docker really set the industry on this path and it's been great to follow every DockerCon at TheCube coverage, but more importantly, as the demand for Developers to build these next wave of Cambrian explosion of applications. It's going to be more important than ever to have more of these abstractions, more of these tools in this real time, more Developers experience because there's more building going on. And it's not just one cloud, it's all clouds, it's all things. >> Yeah, I think it was like when IDC analyzed the future report a couple years ago, I think it was maybe the 2018 one. They said that maybe 2017. They said to date, we've built 500 millions applications worldwide and by 2023, we'll build another 500 million. The rate of creation is just insane, it's exponential growth of us producing more and more applications and connecting more and more devices to do them. The sheer volume of creation and the rate of new technology supporting, even with the rate of companies adopting, I guess more of a warm cloud. I think it's like 60 percent of companies are now more than one cloud provider. Maybe even more, maybe it's like 80 percent. It's ridiculous. >> I was just having this debate on Twitter about this multi-cloud. Someone tried to call us out saying, "Oh you guys were pooing on multi-cloud in 2016 and 18." I go "Look at, no one was Pooping on multi-cloud, it didn't exist." I had multiple clouds but there was no real use case. Now you're starting to see the use cases, where yeah, I had multiple clouds and I got Azure here, I got this over here. But no one wakes up and spreads their workloads wrong. This is going back a few years. Certainly the hybrid was developing, but I think now you're starting to see with networking and some of these inter-operable dynamics, you start to see innovation pockets in wide spaces in large market opportunities for start-ups and companies to thread the clouds together at the right place. So I think multi-cloud is becoming apparent from a use case stand point. Still a ton of work to do, I mean direct connects, got SLA's, I mean all kinds of stuff at the networking level but it is real. It's going to be one of those realities that everyone has, at least one or two, if not three. It could be optimization, this is what Developers do right? Solve problems. >> Yeah, absolutely, I mean if nothing else, I've encounter a couple of companies even just where redundancy is handled by multi-cloud strategy. If you want to achieve more nines and you're just balancing workloads between two clouds. >> I mean, the Zoom news was really a testament to that because everyone got into a twist over that. Oh Zoom moves off Amazon, no they didn't move off Amazon, they went to Oracle, they got Adge, they're everywhere. Why wouldn't they be? They need to pass it, they fail over, they need fall tolerance, I mean, these are basic distributing computing concepts that is one on one. You've got to have these co-locations. And optimization for those clouds and the apps on Microsoft as well, so why wouldn't you do it? >> Exactly. And that's that hybrid, that multi-cloud, compounding that some of which you said earlier, that over changes when you're looking at how you go to CICD, how you're bundling these applications, creating more applications than ever. Coming back, sort of, with more AI workloads, much like GPU and you combine that with, sort of, last in the growth of age devices as well. It sort of makes for a really interesting future. And Docker is sort of, that summation SOV, what we're using to frame how we're thinking about our product and what we should be building. >> Great, for the audience out there, hit him up on Twitter, Ben's available, they're out in the open, if you're interested in how Docker makes life easier on the Windows platform, with the GPU support, they've got security now built in, shifting left. Give these guys a call and of course, we love the mission, out in the open. It's theCUBE's mission as well and great to chat with you. Ben, thanks for spending the time with me today. >> Been an absolute pleasure, thank you for having me. >> Okay, just TheCube's coverage, the virtual Cube with DockerCon co-creating together out in the open. DockerCon20, #Docker20, I'm John Fer with TheCube, stay tuned for our next segment, and thanks for watching. (ambient music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From around the globe, It's theCUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020 brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, welcome back to our DockerCon 2020 DockerCon 20 coverage this is theCUBE virtual here in the Palo Alto studios with our quarantine crew, I'm John Furrier your host, got two great guests here. Scott Johnson is the CEO of Docker and Peter McKay CEO of Snyk hot security startup with some big news, you guys have rolled out, but really it's got an impact to developers. Scott and Peter great to see you guys again. >> Great to see John. >> Good to see you John. I'm glad we can at least talk remotely. I wish we were face to face, but obviously we're living in a time of crisis were you starting to see a Cambrian explosion starting to emerge where all people are recognizing that a lot is going to come out of this. You guys have announced a strategic alliance. Can you guys take a minute to explain what is this alliance and what does it mean ? Scott, we'll start with you. >> Absolutely, and thank you, Peter, thank you, John, for this chance to share with you all that's going on it's very exciting. Look, what we saw together as teams, both, both Peter's and ours was the developer experience is getting better and better in terms of faster and faster iterations but we weren't in the world of the Docker Desktop and Docker Hub experience having kind of scary as a first pass citizen that was really right in front and center with developer workflow. And so in working with Peter's team, we realized that the two companies had the same vision of like, let's bring that developer for security just right in center, in the user experience in the command line, in the tooling and just make it natural. So that developers could continue to iterate rapidly, continue to ship value, ship features fast. But in addition to doing that, do so in a secure fashion and in a secure manner. And really that's what this partnership is about is making security just kind of built in natural developer friendly developer first. We're very very excited to partner with Snyk and then bring this to development community. >> Peter, you guys have a unique business model, you're developer first security. What does this mean to you? Docker has got millions of developers out there who know containers, there's certainly developer first. What does this alliance mean to you guys as Snyk? >> Yeah, when you think of the developer community, you think of Docker, I mean, that's when we looked at the front end of our funnel, the people who we go after and our users, it's developers, and when you think developers, you think Docker and so we've got... Scott and I got together I'd say four or five months ago where we started talking about building a tighter relationship together the synergies between what he was doing and the team was doing, we're doing at Docker. And what we were trying to do is kind of embed the developer experience and develope and integrate security into that really made a very compelling value proposition together for developers and embedding that security into that application development into your containers and your image and your application development life cycle just made it a better developer experience overall. >> We've been talking to a lot of developers, certainly for DockerCon and just outside of the industry anecdotally, is that Docker really revolutionized, container ideas has been such a great win for developers. Containerizing applications really has changed the game, has spawned the generation of Kubernetes and cloud native microservices. What specifically is going on with you guys in this partnership? Where's the security fit in because can I just do a scan and scan the vulnerabilities? I mean, what's unique here? What does this mean for developers? What's going on with the alliance? >> Yeah, I'll take it first, Peter, but then jump in. So John, in the history of application development, so often security is not addressed until the end. And so developers they're shipping rapidly. They're they're iterating quickly, but then it gets, right before production and the alarm goes off and security team swoops in and security is often seen as a point of friction or a way to delay applications from getting the market and delivering value quickly. And this partnership completely reverses that where instead of having security be further down the stream of the tool chain or the application development life cycle, we're pulling it right up in front and having it be right alongside all the other activities that a developer is doing around building their code around, testing their code around, running their code locally. And it's the whole shift left I'm mean I'm sure you've seen out there and we are shifting this as far left it can be where it's right there on the local Docker Desktop in the command line as a primary emotion and its primary tool to building a great secure application as any other aspect of the tool chain. And that was really the focus of the partnership, which is like, make this just native and as far left as possible and not make security an afterthought or something that gets taken place by other Ops people downstream. >> Peter. >> If you think can about... That's the whole concept of how Snyk was founded. We all came from an application security background where it was security tools for security people, and it really... The whole industry needed this fundamental shift in the approach. And as Scott said that whole shifting left concept to really scale security in the right way and is to embed it into that application development life cycle into embedded into the tools that developers use each and every day. So they wanted to be a security expert, a developer doesn't need to be someone who knows all the vulnerabilities, they just need to know how to develop the most creative, indeed the most agile organization to develop, much better applications. And if they can do it in a more secure way they would obviously do it, but don't make them do something dramatically different and don't ask them to be security experts. And that's what we've tried to do in the partnership with Docker allows us to embed that continuous security insights into that whole development loop to when they develop these applications, they're secure when they're done and all the way through that development life cycle, you're testing for vulnerabilities in auto remediating along the way. So it allows them to develop very creative at the pace in which they want to develop. And it makes them more secure by doing it. >> Yeah, let me pick up on Peter's point there, which is so often security has been something that's discovered late in the process, right? Either just before production or sometimes even in production. And then just think about that feedback loop. It's got to go all the way back upstream all the way to the element team developers got to go find what they're working on. Well, maybe not hours ago, it could have been days ago could even be weeks ago and then both figure out how to remediate, get it all the way through the inner loop and the outer loop. We're completely blowing that up and disrupting that by bringing it all the way forward such that the feedback is right then and there with the developer in the moment on the laptop, in their inner loop and giving them the immediate response that they need and the single they need to take action remediate and then move on to the next creative thing they can do is they're just thinking about shortening that whole feedback loop. And really as Peter said, building security in from the get go because the signal is there to give them a indication of what they need to do right then and there. >> Great, I want to get into the... I mean, I can see the workflow advantage, so I totally get that. I've heard on theCUBE many times that security has got to be built in from the beginning. We've heard that before many times, I don't think I've heard security discussed this way, combined with the trends arounds automation. So can you guys talk about how that fits in? Because I get shifting left all that workflow, all goodness. But now I'm assuming there's a whole op side of security. And then if I'm trying to automate things and that's the real trend we're seeing here, how does that all work? Does that all come together? And it's this kind of unique that you guys are doing? Can you unpack that a little bit and clarify? >> Yeah, I mean, this has been something that we've been focused on quite a bit. I mean, the first it's... Used to be that you used to find a lot of vulnerability and yes we find a lot of vulnerabilities. And what we tried to do is focused on the prioritization and really hear the critical ones that developers need to fix first, second, third, and fourth based on severity. And we build that all in and that's something that we learned that we built into the process. And then last phase is this auto remediation. To the extent we can auto correct and auto fix, which is becoming increasingly a bigger part because the more you learn about the vulnerabilities in some of the fixes, the more you can automate and remediate that just makes the whole development process that much more productive and efficient. And that's really what we're trying to do, not only just find vulnerabilities, prioritize them, what are the ones that are what the team feels as severity one twos and threes embed that into the process. So you fix these are the ones you're fixing first, second, and third, into the extent they could be auto remediated, then fix them automatically. So we're trying to build that increasingly into the application. >> So, is this the first secure containerization deployment model? I mean, have other people have been doing this? I mean, is this new to Docker new to the industry? What's what's going on? >> Well, so we're here to talk about the partnership and of course there's a wealth of a very active ecosystem in and around security and other spaces. But we think this is the first that brings it this close to the developer in the moment in the command line on the desktop. And thus we think it has a lot of value to offer development team. >> I'll put my developer hat on. I'm one of the millions of developers, containers are part of my daily design coding, What's in it for me? Why does it matter to me as a developer? What does it do for me? Save time? What's the impact for the developer? >> Well, you think about... I mean, just look at the old model, right? The old model is you develop an application, you send it to the security team and they'll audit it. They'll tell you all the vulnerabilities and then they'll ship it back to you. You fix it, then they'll check it again. And they were waiting in the queue and then they'll tell you what's wrong and they'll send it back and think of that long. It's just like... Can you remember in the early day, when they a quality issue, fix it earlier in the life cycle of an application, don't wait till the end where the quality is embedded into the process. And so what you find is, the developers are embracing this and we have our like Docker, you have a freemium where developers can try it and realize that look, and I'm going to have to do security anyway, I mean, I have to develop secure application. If I can use a tool that's built for me and embedded into my development life cycle so I don't have to be a security expert and I don't have to wait for the security teams, to tell me what's wrong. And I can embed this all the way through and then not have to go through that painful step at the very end, to go through that security audit. I would do that any day of the week-- >> (mumbles) it back to you, do the scans, "Hey, you got to fix this." And then developer Scott your point moves on. They're coding, right? I mean, that's a problem. >> Developers want to ship, right? I mean, going back to your point, John, like one of the revolutions of Docker is that it is given the expectation that developers can ship faster. And right now in much of the state of the state, because security is important, like it can serve as a gate. And as Peter just walked you through it can slow down developer shipping and having impact. And so for you, the developer, John, like this gives you freedom to ship early often, high-frequency everything the promise of the container development model. This really unleashes that. >> Yeah 'cause that rails around the security policies too allows them to be projected in as syntax, if you will, or as part of the coding environment so I don't have to worry about it. I mean, at the end of the day, it's peace of mind, more than anything, time is certainly a pain in the butt, but yeah, as a developer, the creativity we needed more than ever. Okay, so with the COVID crisis-- >> One last point I want to make on that, sorry, it's also the security teams want it to because they don't want to be the bottleneck. They don't want to be doing this at the last minute and having all the pressure on them. I mean, they know that a big chunk of their business is going through these applications. So a lot of the budget dollars that come from people buying Snyk and embedding it into the process is from security because they can't keep up this digital transformation and what companies are going through. They don't want to be, there's one of two things. Either they're going to be the bottleneck or the developers are going to go around them and just put an application in the cloud in it and ship the container, put it anywhere then going around security. So they don't want that either. So there's just a very tight alignment between developers want to ship fast and security teams want to do the same. >> I hate to say it, but the whole agility is now not only just normal for us insiders in the industry. It's proven now with this COVID crisis that you have to be fast, you have to be at scale. And I think this speaks to some of the experiences you guys had in the industry, you were talking earlier. If you're not moving at the pace that you need to move at the scale you need the automation it's proven cloud native is going is completely ratified in my mind. There's no doubt, that means microservices is front and center and this change that's happening right now. And when we come out of this pandemic, there's going to be growth winners and not growth winners. We flat line to decline or winners, and it's all going to be based on microservices. So for the developers out there going to be called into the office as someday or in a Zoom, let's get these apps double down on this, kill that project. There's going to be those conversations >> It's happening right now, John. So look, what's happening, as a result of COVID an entire bodies of human activity are shifting from offline online. Like social, consumer, B2B, healthcare going down the list, finance, commerce, retail, like massive tectonic shift going from offline online. That means massive demand for new applications, new application development, and quickly, some this shift is happening and there's a bunch of businesses that didn't have exposure to digital they're like, "Oh my goodness, I need a digital strategy. "I need a digital channel. "I need a digital revenue stream." And so the demand for new applications quickly is exploding through the roof. And we see this across the board in our industry right now which is very, very fortunate given the other circumstances and other industries, but you're absolutely right. Like this lets them ship faster. And now is the time when they need to ship and ship fast. >> And the budgets are going to be allocated on these new projects was just a nuance in your point, it's new projects and then there's fixing modernizing the old stuff. Because look at Walmart, Walmart got hamstrung on the eCommerce side, they just killed their jet acquisition. They spent $3 billion on, this is the reality. This is not like just a strategy to do innovation, innovation strategy or some walk down, digital transformation lane. This is happening, it has to be done. What do they do? >> Its interesting and it starts, we always say, we start with the new and replaced the old. We start with a new application, it usually is always the case where we usually start with a lot of the companies is a new (mumbles) on application. And then it expands from there. And so know you look at what you used to be the best practices were tech companies, and then it moved to financial services, industries and insurance and then in retail, now you look at manufacturing, you look across the board, as Scott said, this offline to online, is driving so much of the empowering developers to take on more responsibility and to own more of it, but to be faster and to be more agile. And that's really, what's driving this big shifts in the market. And like you said earlier, if they're not there, they're in trouble because this market is driving that direction. >> I want to get both of your comments on this final question, because even with the progression of the developers from the Steve bomber developer development developers, speech on YouTube to developers on the front lines, cloud native, and now today it's been a progression. And I think it's always been the developers on the front lines are getting closer to the front lines. I think now it's even more compelling because there's a scale and agility speed game going on. So I think it's just another step function, developer relevance. It's not so much, they've never been close to, they have been getting closer they're in the business conversation and the ones that could move fast are the ones going to deliver the value. So if automation is in the playbook, if cloud need is not in the playbook, this is going to be the new developer equation, the ones that meet that will be successful. Can you guys react to that and your thoughts? >> Go ahead Peter. >> I mean, I think what we're trying to do is make that developer experience just one from just the partnership with Docker and is a key, just making it really easy, do the integration, do a lot of the work, make the developer experience as seamless as possible, make it very efficient for them, make it easy for them to try and buy, make it just a great experience and allow them to, or empower them to take on more of the responsibility of getting that App published and in the containers out the door. And that's what we're excited about with the partnership with Docker is that with the number of developers that they have, the work that we do together, and the roadmap that we have is really making that experience just an incredible journey for our developer and that's what we want to continue to make sure we foster. >> Scott, the new relevance of developers, your thoughts. >> Yeah, I would only--building on Peter's point, observed that a lot of the developer expectations are informed by the stack and what's possible. And to your points earlier about the previous waves, John, like, developers are important, but their full potential if you will was perhaps muted or gated because there was not a clean abstraction between the application on the underlying infrastructure. And now, as we know, Dockerization and the surrounding ecosystem of Kubernetes and other tools, we have a much cleaner separation between the Application and the infrastructure, and that allows and set expectations for a much higher cadence of release much faster, time to value, much more agile operations in terms of responding to competitors and the market and your customers. And so with that expectation, how do you unleash that? And this partnership is really key to that, by taking the friction out. As we talked about kind of historical security models and bringing a new model that bring the security way left right into the developers around that experience. And then in some sense, really fulfills that ability to move quickly, react in an agile fashion and have an impact as quickly as possible. >> That's awesome security built into the workflow, automated industry first, guys thanks so much for a great partnership, but the final work at the plugin for the relationship going forward, how's that work is going to be available is integration code is it development? Give a quick plug for what's happening, the relationship and what's happening going forward? >> Look, Docker only succeeds if the ecosystem succeeds. and we're very very proud and humbled to join arms with Peter and the Snyk team as a partner in the security ecosystem. And so you'll see us not only in this integrated developer experience on the command line, which is going to be very, very valuable to developers that we've been talking about, but you'll see us out there promoting the solution in different forms and community groups. And so it doesn't stop and end with the DockerCon experience, look for us in the year ahead to do more and more together. >> Awesome. >> I agree and I think that just culturally and the way the organizations work really well together, I think this is a beginning of a longer journey and a longer partnership we're going to have together with Scott and the team, so we're excited. I think the validation, the early validation we've got from the development teams that we've been talking to around the world, I think there's tremendous desire for this to happen, and we're excited to launch the journey together, with Scott and team. >> It's been a lot of fun watching this progression, like you said, create that headroom, the developable, we'll take it right up and there'll be another step function, more progression. Great job guys. Congratulations on the great partnership >> We need to security built in, we need more creativity. We need that, we need this new modern era to be flourishing. Thanks for your time, appreciate it. >> Thanks John. >> Thank you. >> theCUBE coverage, virtual CUBE coverage of DockerCon 20. I'm John Furrier your host, along with Docker for DockerCon 20 #Docker 20. Thanks for watching and stay tuned for our next segment of DockerCon 20 virtual. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Dockercon Live 2020, brought to you by Docker and it's ecosystem partners. >> Everyone welcome back to Dockercon 2020, #Docker20. This is theCUBE and Docker's coverage of Dockercon 20. I'm John Furrier in the Palo Alto studios with our quarantine crew, we got a great interview segment here and big news around developer workflow code to cloud. We've got Amanda Silver, Corporate Vice President, product for developer tools at Microsoft and Scott Johnson, the CEO of Docker. Scott had a great Keynote talking about this relationship news has hit about the extension of the Microsoft partnership. So congratulations, Amanda, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. >> Amanda, tell us about what your role is at Microsoft. You guys are well known in the developer community. You had to develop a ecosystem even when I was in college going way back. Very modern now, the cloud is the key, code to cloud, that's the theme. Tell us about your role at Microsoft. >> Yeah, so I basically run the product, Product Design and User Research team that works on our developer tools at Microsoft. And so that includes the Visual Studio product as well as Visual Studio code that's become pretty popular in the last few years but it also includes things like the dotNET runtime and the TypeScript programming language, as well as all of our Azure tooling. >> What's your thoughts on the relationship with Docker? Obviously the news extension of an existing relationship, Microsoft's got a lot of tools, you got a lot of things you guys are doing, bringing the cloud to every business. Tell us about your thoughts on this relationship with Docker? >> Yeah well, we're very excited about the partnership for sure. Our goal is really to make sure that Azure is a fantastic place where all developers can kind of bring their code and they feel welcome. They feel natural. We really see a unique opportunity to make the experience really great for the Docker community by creating more integrated and seamless experience across Docker desktop, Windows and Visual Studio and we really appreciate how Docker has kind of, supported our Windows ecosystem to run in Docker as well. >> Scott, this relationship and an extension with Microsoft is really, I think, impressive and also notable because Microsoft's got so many tools out there and they have so successful with Azure. You guys have been so successful with your developer community but this also is a reflective of the new Docker. Can you share your thoughts on how this partnership with Microsoft, extending the way it is, with the growth of the cloud is a reflection of the new Docker? >> Yeah, absolutely John, it's a great question. One of the things that we've really been focused on since November is fully embracing the ecosystem and all the partnerships and all the possibilities of that ecosystem and part of that is just reality that we're a smaller company now and we can't do it all, nor should we do it all. Part of it's the reality that developers love choice and no one's going to change their minds on choice, and third is just acknowledging that there's so much creativity and so much energy outside the four walls of Docker that we'd be silly not to take advantage of that and welcome it and embrace it and provide that as a phenomenal experience for our developers. So this is a great example of that. The Snyk partnership we announced last week is a great example of that and you're going to see many more partnerships like this going forward that are reflective of exactly this point. >> You've been a visionary on the product side, interviewed before. Also deploying is more important than ever, that whole workflow simplifying, it's not getting complex, people want choice, building code, managing code, deploying code. This has been a big focus of yours. Can you just share your thoughts on where Microsoft comes in? Because they got stuff too, you've got stuff, it all works together. What's your thoughts? >> Right, so it needs to work together because developers want to focus on their app. They don't want to focus on duct taping and stringing together different siloed pools. So you can see in the demo and you'll see in demonstrations later throughout the conference, just the seamless experience that a developer gets in the Docker command line inner operating with Visual Studio Code, with the Docker command line and then deploying to Azure and what's wonderful about the partnership is that both parties put real engineering effort and design effort into making it a great experience. So a lot of the complexities around configuration, around default settings, around security, user management, all of that is abstracted out and taken away from the developers so they can focus on applications and getting those applications deployed to the cloud as quickly as possible. Getting their apps from code to cloud is the watchword or the call to action for this partnership and we think we've really hit it out of the park with the integration that you saw. >> Great validation in the critical part of the workflow you guys been part of. Amanda, we're living in a time we're doing these remote interviews. The COVID crisis has shown the productivity gains of working at home and working, sheltering in place but it also has highlighted the focus of developers, mainly who have also worked at home. They're been kind of used to this, you see the rigs. I saw at Microsoft build some amazing rigs from the studio, so these guys streaming their code demos. This is a Cambrian explosion of new kinds of productivity. You got the world's getting more complex at scale. This is what cloud does. What's your thoughts on this? 'Cause the tooling, there's more tools than ever, right? >> Yeah. >> I still got to deploy code. It's got to be more agile, it's got to be faster, it's got to be at scale. This is what you guys believe in. What's your thinking on all these tooling and abstraction layers? And the end of the day, developers still got to do their job. >> Yeah, well, absolutely. And now even more than ever, I think we've certainly seen over the past few months, a more rapid acceleration of digital transformation that has really happened in the past few years. Paper processes are now becoming digital processes all of a sudden. Everybody needs to work and learn from home and so there's just this rapid acceleration to kind of move everything to support our new remote first lifestyle. But even more so, we now have remote development teams actually working from home as well in a variety of different kinds of environments, whether they're using their own personal machine to connect to their infrastructure or they're using a work issued machine. It's more important than ever that developers are productive but they are productive as a team. Software is a team sport, we all need to be able to work together and to be able to collaborate. And one of the most important aspects of agility for developers is consistency. And what Docker really enables with containerization, is to make the infrastructure consistent and repeatable so that as developers are moving through the lifecycle from their local desktop and developing on their local desktop, to a test environment and to staging and to production, it's really, it's infrastructure for developers as well as operations. And so, that infrastructure, that's completely customizable for what the developers operating system of choice is, what their app stack is, all of those dependencies kind of running together. And so that's what really enables developers to be really agile and have a really fast iteration cycle but also to have that consistency across all of their development team. And we now need to think about things like, how are we actually going to bring on interns for the summer and make sure that they can actually set up their developer boxes in a consistent way that we can actually support them and things like Docker really help with that. >> As your container instances and Visual Studio cloud that you guys have has had great success. There's a mix and match formula here and the other day, developers want to ship the code. What's the message that you guys are sending here with this because I think productivity is one, simplification is the other but as developers, we're on the front lines and they're shipping in real time. This is a big part of the value proposition that you guys bringing to the table. >> Yeah, the core message is that any developer and their code is welcome (laughs) and that we really want to support them, empower them and increase their velocity and the impact that they can have. And so, having things like the fact that the Docker CLI is natively integrated into the Azure experience is a really important aspect of making sure that developers are feeling welcome and feeling comfortable. And now that the Docker CLI tools that are part of Docker desktop have access to native commands that work well with Azure container instances, Azure container instances, if anybody is unfamiliar with that, is the simplest and fastest way to kind of set up containers in Azure and so we believe that developers have really been looking for a really simple way to kind of get containers on Azure and now we have that really consistent experience across our servers, services and our tools. Visual Studio code and Visual Studio extensions make full use of Docker desktop and the Docker CLI so that they can get that combination of the productivity and the power that they're looking for. And in fact, we've integrated these as a design point since very early on in our partnership when we've been partnering with Docker for quite a while. >> Amanda, I want to ask you about the tool chain. We've heard about workflows, making it simpler. Bottom line from a developer standpoint, what's the bottom line for me? What does this mean to me, everyday developer out there? >> I really think it means, your productivity on your terms. And so, Microsoft has been a developer company since the very beginning with Bill Gates and GW Basic. And it's actually similar for Docker. They really have a developer first point of view, which certainly speaks to my heart and so one of the things that we're really trying to do with Docker is to make sure that we can create a workflow that's super productive at every stage of the developer experience, no matter which stack they're actually targeting, whether there's targeting Node or Python, or dotNET and C Sharp or Java, we really want to make sure that we have a super simple experience that you can actually initiate all of these commands, create Docker container images and use the Docker compose files. And then, just kind of do that consistently, as you're deploying it all the way up into your infrastructure in Azure. And the other thing that we really want to make sure is that that even post deployment, you can actually inspect and diagnose these containers and images without having to leave the tool. So we also think about the process of writing the code but also the process of kind of managing the code and remediating issues that might come up in production. And so we really want you to be able to look at containers up in the Azure, that are deployed into Azure and make sure that they're running and healthy and that if something's wrong, that you can actually open up a shell and be in an interactive mode and be able to look at the logs from those containers and even inspect one to see environment variables or other details. >> Yeah, that's awesome. Writing code, managing code and then you got to deploy, right? So what I've been loving about the past generation of Agile is deployment's been faster to play off all the time. Scott, this brings up that the ease of use but you'll want to actually leverage automation. This is the trend that you want to get into. You want to make it easy to write code, manage code but during the deployment phase, that's a big innovation. That's the last point, making that better and stronger. What's your thoughts on simplifying that? >> Well, as a big part of this partnership, John, that Docker and Microsoft embarked on, as you saw from the demo in the keynote, all within the Docker command line, the developer's able to do it in two simple commands, deploy an app, define and compose from their desktop to Azure. And there's a whole slew of automation and pre-configured smart defaults or sane defaults that have gone on behind the scenes and it a lot of hardcore engineering work on part of Docker-Microsoft together to simplify that and make that easy. And that goes exactly to your point, which is, the simpler you can make it, make an abstract way to kind of underline plumbing and infrastructure, the faster Devs can get their application from code to cloud. >> Scott, you've been a product CEO, you've been a product person now you're the CEO but you have a product back when you've been involved with a relationship with Microsoft for a long time. What's the state of the market right now? I see Microsoft has evolved because just the performance, corporate performance, the shift to the cloud has been phenomenal. Now developers getting more empowered, there's more demand for the pressure to put developers to do more and more creativity. So you've seen this evolve, this relationship, what does it mean? >> Yeah, it's honestly a wonderful question, John and I want to thank Amanda and the entire Microsoft team for being long standing partners with us on this journey. So it might not be known to everyone on today's day's event but Microsoft came to the very first Dockercon event way back in June 2014 and I had the privilege of greeting them and welcoming them and then they were full on, ready to see what all the excitement about Docker was about and really embraced it. And you mentioned kind of openness in Microsoft's growth over time in that dimension and we think Docker, together with Microsoft have really shown what an open developer community can do. That started back in 2014 and then we embarked on an open source collaboration around the Docker command line of the Docker engine, bringing that Docker engine from Linux and now moving it to Windows applications. And so all the sudden the promise of write once and use the same primitives, the same formats, the same command lines, as you can with Linux onto Windows applications, we brought that promise to the market. And it's been an ongoing journey together with Microsoft on open standards base, developer facing friendliness, ease of use, fast time to deploy and this partnership that we announced yesterday and we highlighted at the keynote is just another example of that ongoing relationship, laser-like focused on developer productivity and helping teams build great apps. >> Why do you like Azure in the cloud for Docker? Can you share why? >> Well, as Amanda has been sharing, it's super focused on, what are the needs of developers to help them continue to stay focused on their apps and not have their cognitive load burdened by other aspects of getting their apps to the cloud and Azure does a phenomenal job of simplifying and providing sane defaults out of the box. And as we've been talking about, it's also very open to partner integrations like the one we've announced yesterday and highlighted that make it just easy for development teams to choose their tools and build their apps and deploy them onto Azure as quickly as possible. So it's a phenomenal platform for developers and we're very excited and proud to partner with Microsoft on it. >> Amanda on your side, I see Docker's got millions of developers. you guys got millions of developers even more. How do you see the developers in Microsoft's side engaging with Docker desktop and Docker hub? Where does it all fit? I mentioned earlier how I see Docker context really improving the way that individuals and teams work with their environments in making sure that they're consistent but I think this really comes together as we work with Docker desktop and Docker Hub. When developers sign in to Docker Hub from Docker desktop, everything kind of lights up and so they can see all of the images in their repositories and they can also see the cloud environments that they're running them in. And so, once you sign into the Hub, you can see all the contexts that map to the logical environments they have access to, like Dev, NQA and maybe staging. And another use case that's really important is that we can access the same integration environment. So, I can have microservices that I've been working on but I can also see microservices that my teammates and their logs from the services that they've been working on, which I think is really great and certainly helps with team productivity. The other thing too, is that this also really helps with hybrid cloud deployments, where, you might have some on-premises hosted containers and you might have some that's hosted in a public cloud. And so you can see all of those things through your Docker Hub. >> Well, I got to say, I love the code to cloud tagline, I think that's very relevant and catchy. And I think, I guess to me what I'm seeing and I'd love to get your thoughts, Amanda on this is you oversee a key part of Microsoft's business that's important for developers, just the vibe and people are amped up right now. I know people are tensed, anxiety with the COVID-19 crisis but I think people are generally agreeing that this is going to be a massive inflection point for just more headroom needed for developers to accelerate their value on the front lines. What's your personal take on this? You've seen these waves before but now in this time, what are you most excited about? What are you optimistic about? What's your view on the opportunities? Can you share your thoughts, because people are going to get back to work. They're working now remotely but if we go back to hybrid world, they're going to be jamming on projects. >> Yeah, for sure but people are jamming on projects right now and I think that in a lot of ways, developers are first responders in that they are... Developers are always trying to support somebody else. We're trying to support somebody else's workflow and so we have examples of people who are creating new remote systems to be able to schedule meetings in hospitals for the doctors who are actually the first responders taking care of patients but at the end of the day, it's the developer who's actually creating that solution. And so we're being called to duty right now and so we need to make sure that we're actually there to support the needs of our users and that we're basically cranking on code as fast as we can. And to be able to do that, we have to make sure that every developer is empowered and they can move quickly but also that they can collaborate really quickly. And so I think that Docker Hub, Docker kind of helps you ensure that you have that consistency but you also have that connection to the infrastructure that's hosted by your your organization. >> I think you nailed, that's amazing insight. I think that's... The current situation in the community matters because there's a lot of frontline work being done to your point but then we got to rebuild, the modernization is happening as well coming out of this so there's going to be that. And there's a lot of camaraderie going on and massive community involvement I'm seeing more of. The empathy but also now there's going to be the building, the creation, the new creation. So, Scott, this is going to call for more simplicity and to abstract away the complexities. This is the core issue. >> Well, that's exactly right. And it is time to build and we're going to build our way out of this and it is the community that's responding. And so in some sense, Microsoft and Docker are there to support that moory energy and give them the tools to go and identify and have an impact as quickly as possible. I referenced in the keynote, completely bottoms up organic adoption of Docker desktop and Docker Hub in racing to provide solutions against the COVID-19 virus. It's a war against this pandemic that is heavily dependent on applications and data. And there's over 200 projects, community projects on Docker Hub today, where you've got tools and containers and data analysis all in service to the COVID-19 battle that's being fought. And then as you said, John, as we get through the other side, there's entire industries that are completely rethinking their approach that were largely offline before but now see the imperative and the importance of going online. And that tectonic shift, nearly overnight of offline to online behavior and commerce and social and going down the list, that requires new application development. And I'm very pleased about this partnership is that together, we're giving developers the tools to really take advantage of that opportunity and go and build our way out of it. >> Well, Scott, congratulations on a great extended partnership with Microsoft and the Docker brand. I'm a big fan from day one. I know you guys have pivoted on a new trajectory, which is phenomenal, very community oriented, very open source, very open. So congratulations on that. Amanda, thanks for spending the time to come on. I'll give you the final word. Take a minute to talk about what's new at Microsoft for the folks that know Microsoft, know they have a developer mindset from day one. Cloud is exploding, code to cloud. What's the update? What's the new narrative? What should people know about Microsoft with developer community? Can you share some data for the folks that aren't in the community or might want to join or the folks in the community who want to get an update? >> Yeah, it's a great kind of question. Right now, I think we are all really focused on making sure that we can empower developers throughout the world and that includes both those who are building solutions for their organizations today but also, I think we're going to end up with a ton of new developers over this next period, who are really entering the workforce and learning to create digital solutions. Overall, there's a massive developer shortage across the world. There's so much opportunity for developers to kind of address a lot of the needs that we're seeing out of organizations, again, across the world. And so I think it's just a really exciting time to be a developer and my only hope is that basically we're building tools that actually enable them to solve the problem. >> Awesome insight, and thank you so much for your time. Code to cloud developers are cranking away, they're the first responders, going to take care of business and then continue to build out the modern applications. And when you have a crisis like this, people cut right through the noise and get right to the tools that matter. So thanks for sharing the Microsoft-Docker partnership and the things that you guys are working on together. Thanks for your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay, this is theCUBE's coverage. We are at Dockercon 2020 Digital. This is theCUBE Virtual. I'm John Furrier, bringing all the action, more coverage. Stay with us for more Dockercon Virtual after this short break. (gentle music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon LIVE 2020, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of DockerCon LIVE 2020. Happy to welcome back to the program one of our CUBE alumni, Deepak Singh. He's the vice president of compute services at Amazon Web Services. Deepak, great to see you. >> Likewise, hi, Stu. Nice to meet you again. >> All right, so for our audience that hasn't been in your previous times on theCUBE, give us a little bit about, you know, your role and your organization inside AWS? >> Yeah, so I'm, I've been part of the AWS compute services world from, for the last 12 years in various capacities. Today, I run a number of teams, all our container services, our Linux teams, I also happen to run a high performance computing organization, so it's a nice mix of all the computing that our customers do, especially some of the more new and large scale compute types that our customers are doing. >> All right, so Deepak, obviously, you know, the digital events, we understand what's happening with the global pandemic. DockerCon was actually always planned to be an online event but I want to understand, you know, your teams, how things are affecting, we know distributed is something that Amazon's done, but you have to cut up those two pizza and send them out to the additional groups or, you know, what advice are you giving the developers out there? >> Yeah, in many ways, obviously, how we operate has changed. We are at home, maybe I think with our families. DockerCon was always going to be virtual, but many other events like AWS Summits are now virtual so, you know, in some ways, the teams, the people that get most impacted are not necessarily the developers in our team but people who interact a lot with customers, who go to conferences and speak and they are finding new ways of being effective and being successful and they've been very creative at it. Our customers are getting very good at working with us virtually because we can always go to their site, they can always come to Seattle, or run of other sites for meeting. So we've all become very good at, and disciplined at how do you conduct really nice virtual meetings. But from a customer commitment side, from how we are operating, the things that we're doing, not that much has changed. We still run our projects the same way, the teams work together. My team tends to do a lot of happy things like Friday happy hours, they happen to be all virtual. I think last time we played, what word, bingo? I forget exactly what game we played. I know I got some point somewhere. But we do our best to maintain sort of our team chemistry or camaraderie but the mission doesn't change which is our customers expect us to keep operating their services, make sure that they're highly available, keep delivering new capabilities and I think in this environment, in some ways that's even more important than ever, as customer, as the consumer moves online and so much business is being done virtually so it keeps us on our toes but it's been an adjustment but I think we are all, not just us, I think the whole world is doing the best that they can under the circumstances. >> Yeah, absolutely, it definitely has humanized things quite a bit. From a technology standpoint, Deepak, you know, distributed systems has really been the challenge of you know, quite a long journey that people have been going on. Docker has played, you know, a really important role in a lot of these cloud native technologies. It's been just amazing to watch, you know, one of the things I point to in my career is, you know, watching from those very, very early days of Docker to the Cambrian explosion of what we've seen container based services, you know, you've been part of it for quite a number of years and AWS had many services out there. For people that are getting started, you know, what guidance do you give them? What do they understand about, you know, containerization in 2020? >> Yeah, containerization in 2020 is quite a bit different from when Docker started in 2013. I remember speaking at DockerCon, I forget, that's 2014, 2015, and it was a very different world. People are just trying to figure out what containers are that they could package code in deeper. Today, containers are mainstream, it is more customers or at least many customers and they are starting to build new applications, probably starting them either with containers or with some form of server technology. At least that's the default starting point but increasingly, we also seen customers with existing applications starting to think about how do they adapt? And containers are a means to an end. The end is how can we move faster? How can we deliver more quickly? How can our teams be more productive? And how can you do it more, less expensively, at lower cost? And containers are a big part, important and critical piece of that puzzle, both from how customers are operating their infrastructure, that there's a whole ecosystem of schedulers and orchestration and security tools and all the things that an enterprise need to deliver applications using containers that they have built up. Over the last few years, you know, we have multiple container services that meet those needs. And I think that's been the biggest change is that there's so much more. Which also means that when you're getting started, you're faced with many more options. When Docker started, it was this cute whale, Docker run, Docker build Docker push, it was pretty simple, you could get going really quickly. And today you have 500 different options. My guidance to customers really is, boils down to what are you trying to achieve? If you're an organization that's trying to corral infrastructure and trying to use an existing VM more effectively, for example, you probably do want to invest in becoming experts at schedulers and understanding orchestration technologies like ECS and EKS work but if you just want to run applications, you probably want to look at something like Fargate or more. I mean, you could go towards Lambda and just run code. But I think it all boils down to where you're starting your journey. And by the way, understanding Docker run, Docker build and Docker push is still a great idea. It helps you understand how things work. >> All right, so Deepak, you've already brought up a couple of AWS services of, you know, talk about the options out there, that you can either run on top of AWS, you have a lot of native services, you know, ECS, EKS, you mentioned, Fargate there, and very broad ecosystem in space. Could you just, you know, obviously, there are entire breakout sessions to talk about , the various AWS services, but you know, give us that one on one level as to what to understand for container service by AWS. >> Yeah, and these services evolved organically and we launched the Amazon Elastic Container Service or ECS in preview in November or whenever re:Invent was that year in 2014, which seems ages ago in the world of containers but in the end, our goal is to give our customers the most choice, so that they can solve problems the way they want to solve them. So Amazon ECS is our native container orchestration service, it's designed to work with and the rest of the AWS ecosystem. So it uses VPC for networking, it uses IAM identity, it uses ALB for load balancing, other than just good examples, some examples of how it works. But it became pretty clear over time that there was a lot of customers who were investing in communities, very often starting in their own data centers. And as they migrated onto the cloud, they wanted to continue using the same tool plane but they also wanted to not have to manage the complexity of communities control planes, upgrades. And they also wanted some of the same integrations that they were getting with ECS and so that's where the Amazon Elastic Kubernetes Service or EKS comes in, which is, okay, we will manage a control plane for you. We will manage upgrades and patches for you. You focus on building your applications in Kubernetes way, so it embraces Kubernetes. It has, invokes with all the Kubernetes tooling and gives you a Kubernetes native experience, but then also ties into the broad AWS ecosystem and allows us to take care of some of the muck that many customers quite frankly don't and shouldn't have to worry about. But then we took it one step further and actually launched the same time as EKS and that's, AWS Fargate, and Fargate was, came from the recognition that we had, actually, a long time ago, which is, one of the beauties of EC2 was that customers never had, had to stop, didn't have to worry about racking and stacking and where a server was running anymore. And the idea was, how can we apply that to the world of containers. And we also learned a little bit from what we had done with Lambda. And we took that and took the server layer and took it out of the way. Then from a customer standpoint, all you're launching is a pod or a task or a service and you're not worrying about which machines I need to get, what types of machines I need to get. And the operational simplicity that comes with it is quite remarkable and quite finding not that, surprisingly, our customers want us to keep pushing the boundary of the kind operational simplicity we can give them but Fargate serves a critical building block and part of that, and we're super excited because, you know, today by far when a new customer, when a customer comes and runs a container on AWS the first time they pick Fargate, we're usually using ECS because EKS and Fargate is much newer, but that is a default starting point for any new container customer on AWS which is great. >> All right, well, you know, Docker, the company really helped a lot with that democratization, container technologies, you know, all those services that you talked about from AWS. I'm curious now, the partnership with Docker here, you know, how do some of the AWS services, you know, fit in with Docker? I'm thinking Docker Desktop probably someplace that they're, you know, or some connection? >> Yeah, I think one of the things that Docker has always been really good at as a company, as a project, is understanding the developer and the fact that they start off on a laptop. That's where the original Docker experience that go well, and Docker Desktop since then and we see a ton of Docker Desktop customers have used AWS. We also learned very early on, because originally ECS CLI supported Docker Compose. That ecosystem is also very rich and people like building Docker files and post files and just being able to launch them. So we continue to learn from what Docker is doing with Docker Desktop. We continue working with them on making sure that customizing the Docker Compose and Docker Desktop can run all their services and application on AWS. And we'll continue working with Docker, the company, on how we make that a lot easier for our customers, they are our mutual customers, and how we can learn from their simplicity that Docker, the simplicity that Docker brings and the sort of ease of use the Docker bring for the developer and the developer experience. We learn from that for our own services and we love working with them to make sure that the customer that's starting with Docker Desktop or the Docker CLI has a great experience as they move towards a fully orchestrated experience in the cloud, for example. There's a couple of other areas where Docker has turned out to have had foresight and driven some of our thinking. So a few years ago, Docker released this thing called containerd, where they took out their container runtime from inside the bigger Docker engine. And containerd has become a very important project for us as well as, it's the underpinning of Fargate now and we see a lot of interest from customers that want to keep building on containerd as well. And it's going to be very interesting to see how we work with Docker going forward and how we can continue to give our customers a lot of value, starting from the laptop and then ending up with large scale services in the cloud. >> Very interesting stuff, you know, interesting. Anytime we have a conversation about Docker, there's Docker the technology and Docker the company and that leads us down the discussion of open-source technologies . You were just talking about, you know, containerd believe that connects us to Firecracker. What you and your team are involved in, what's your viewpoint is the, you know, what you're seeing from open-source, how does Amazon think of that? And what else can you share with the audience on this topic? >> Yeah, as you've probably seen over the last few years, both from our work in Kubernetes, with things like Firecracker and more recently Bottlerocket. AWS gets deeply involved with open-source in a number of ways. We are involved heavily with a number of CNCF projects, whether it be containerd, whether it be things like Kubernetes itself, projects in the Kubernetes ecosystem, the service mesh world with Envoy and with the containerd project. So where containerd fits in really well with AWS is in a project that we call firecracker-containerd. They're effectively for Fargate, firecracker-containerd as we move Fargate towards Firecracker becomes out of the container in which you run containerd. It's effectively the equivalent of runC in a traditional Docker engine world. And, you know, one of the first things we did when Firecracker got rolled out was open-source the firecracker-containerd project. It's a go project and the idea was it's a great way for people to build VM like isolation and then build sort of these serverless container architectures like we want to do with Fargate. And, you know, I think Firecracker itself has been a great success. You see customer, you know, companies like Libvirt integrating with Firecracker. I've seen a few other examples of, sometimes unbeknownst to us, of people picking a Firecracker and using it for very, very interesting use cases and not just on AWS in other places as well. And we learnt a lot from that that's kind of why Bottlerocket is, was released the way it was. It is both a product and a project. Bottlerocket, the operating system is an open-source project. It's on GitHub, it has all the building tooling, you can take it and do whatever you want with it. And then on the AWS side, we will build and publish Bottlerocket armies, Amazon machine images, we will support them on AWS and there it's a product. But then Bottlerocket the project is something that anybody in the world who wants to run a minimal operating system can choose to pick up. And I think we've learnt a lot from these experiences, how we deal with the community, how we work with other people who are interested in contributing. And you know, Docker is one of the, the Docker open-source pieces and Docker the company are both part of the growing open-source ecosystem that's coming from AWS, especially on the container world. So it's going to be very interesting. And I'll end with, containerization has started impacting other parts of AWS, as well as our other services are being built, very often through ECS and EKS, but they're also influencing how we think about what capabilities we need to build into the broader container ecosystem. >> Yeah, Deepak, you know, you mentioned that some of the learnings from Lambda has impacted the services you're doing on the containerization side. You know, we've been watching some of the blurring of the lines between another container world and the containerization world. You know, there's some open-source projects out there, the CNCS working on things, you know, what's the latest, as you see kind of containerization and serverless and you know, where do you see them going forward? >> This is that I say that crystal balls are not my strong suite. But we hear customers, customers often want the best of both world. What we see very often is that customers don't actually choose just Fargate or just Lambda, they'll choose both. Where for different pieces of their architecture, they may pick a different solution. And sometimes that's driven by what they know, sometimes driven by what fits into their need. Some of the lines blur but they're still quite different. Lambda, for example, as a very event driven architecture, it is one process at a time. It has all these event hooks into the rest of AWS that are hard to replicate. And if that's the world you want to live in or benefit from, you're going to use lambda. If you're running long running services or you want a particular size that you don't get in Lambda or you want to take a more traditional application and convert it into a more modern application, chances are you're starting on Fargate but it fits in really well you have an existing operational model that fits into it. So we see applications evolving very interestingly. It's one reason why when we build a service mesh, we thought forward instead. It is almost impossible that we will have a world that's 100% containers, 100% Lambda or 100% EC2. It's going to be some mix of all of these. We have to think about it that way. And it's something that we constantly think about is how can we do things in a way that companies aren't forced to pick one way to it and "Oh, I'm going to build on Fargate" and then months later, they're like, "Yeah, we should have probably done Lambda." And I think that is something we think a lot about, whether it's from a developer's experience side or if it's from service meshes, which allow you to move back and forth or make the mesh. And I think that is the area where you'll see us do a lot more going forward. >> Excellent, so last last question for you Deepak is just give us a little bit as to what, you know, industry watchers will be looking at the container services going forward, next kind of 12, 18 months? >> Yeah, so I think one of the great things of the last 18 months has been that type of application that we see customers running, I don't think there's any bound to it. We see everything from people running microservices, or whatever you want to call decoupled services these days, but are services in the end, people are running, most are doing a lot of batch processing, machine learning, artificial intelligence that work with containers. But I think where the biggest dangers are going to come is as companies mature, as companies make containers, not just things that they build greenfield applications but also start thinking about migrating legacy applications in much more volume. A few things are going to happen. I think we'll be, containers come with a lot of complexity right now. I think you've, if you've seen my last two talks at re:Invent along with David Richardson from the Lambda team. You'll hear that we talk a lot about the fact that we see, we've made customers think about more things than they used to in the pre container world. I think you'll see now that the early adopter techie part has done, cloud has adopted containers and the next wave of mainstream users is coming in, you'll see more attractions come on as well, you'll see more governance, I think service meshes have a huge role to play here. How identity works or this fits into things like control tower and more sort of enterprise focused tooling around how you put guardrails around your containerized applications. You'll see it two or three different directions, I think you'll see a lot more on the serverless side, just the fact that so many customers start with Fargate, they're going to make us do more. You'll see a lot more on the ease of use developer experience of production side because you started off with the folks who like to tinker and now you're getting more and more customers that just want to run. And then you'll see, and that's actually a place where Docker, the company and the project have a lot to offer, because that's always been different. And then on the other side, you have the governance guardrails, and how is going to be in a compliant environment, how am I going to migrate all these applications over so that work will keep going on and you'll more and more of that. So those are the three buckets I'll use, the world can surprise us and you might end up with something completely radically different but that seems like what we're hearing from our customers right now. >> Excellent, well, Deepak, always a pleasure to catch up with you. Thanks so much for joining us again on theCUBE. >> No, always a pleasure Stu and hopefully, we get to do this again someday in person. >> Absolutely, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks as always for watching theCUBE. >> Deepak: Yep, thank you. (gentle music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Docker Con Live 2020, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back to the DockerCon studio headquarters and your hosts, Jenny Burcio and myself John Furrier. @Furrier on Twitter if you want to tweet me anything and @DockerCon as well share what you're thinking. Great keynote there from Scott CEO, Jenny, demo, DockerCon jobs, some highlights there from Scott. Yeah, lovely intro, sorry about to do the keynote. The little green room comes on makes it human. We're all trying to meet >> Its certainly the reality of what we are all dealing with right now. I had to ask my kids to leave though or they would crash the whole stream. But yes, we have you know, we have a great community, large community gathered here today and we do want to take the opportunity for those that are looking for jobs or hiring to share with the #DockerCon jobs. In addition, we want to support direct health care workers. And Brett Fisher and the captains will be running all day charity stream on the captain's channel. Go there and you'll get the link to donate to directRelief.org, which is a California based nonprofit delivering aid and supporting health care workers globally with response to the COVID-19 crisis. >> Okay, if you're jumping into the stream, I'm John Furrier with Jenny, we'll be your hosts all day today, throughout Docker con, it's a packed house of great content, you have a mainstream, theCUBE, which is the mainstream that will be promoting a lot of cube interviews, but check out the 40 plus sessions underneath in the interactive calendar on Dockercon.com site. Check it out, they're going to be live on a clock. So if you want to participate in real time in the chat, jump into your session on the track of your choice and participate with the folks in their chatting. If you miss it, it's going to go right on demand right after sort of all content will be immediately be available. So make sure you check it out. Docker selfie is a hashtag take a selfie, share it. Docker, #Docker jobs. If you're looking for a job or have openings, please share with the community and of course, give us feedback on what you can do. We got James governor of the keynote coming up next. He's with red monk, not afraid to share his opinion on open source on what companies should be doing. And also the evolution of this Cambrian explosion of apps that are going to be coming as we come out of this post pandemic world. A lot of people are thinking about this the crisis and following through so you know, stay with us, for more and more coverage, Jenny favorite sessions on your mind for people to pay attention to that they should they should look >> First I'm going to address a few things that continue to come up in the chat. Sessions are recorded especially breakout sessions after they play live and the speakers in chat with you. Those go on demand they are recorded, you will be able to access them. Also, if the screen is too small, there is the button to expand full screen and different quality levels for the video that you can choose on your end. All the breakout sessions also have closed captioning. So please, if you would like to read along, turn that on, so you can stay with the sessions. We have some great sessions kicking off right at 10:00 a.m. Getting started with Docker. We have a full track really in the how to enhance on that you should check out devs in action, hear what other people are doing. And then of course, our sponsors are delivering great content to you all day long. >> Tons of content, it's all available, they'll always be up always on a large scale. Thanks for watching. Now we got James Governor, the keynote. He's with red McDonald's firm, he's been tracking open source for many generations. He's been doing amazing work, watch his great keynote. I'm going to be interviewing him live right after so stay with us and enjoy the rest of the day. We'll see you back shortly. (upbeat music)

>> Presenter: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with Dot leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Everyone welcome to theCUBE studio here in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here with our quarantine crew. We've been here for three months quarantining but we're getting the stories out. We're talking to all of our favorite guests and most important stories in technologies here remotely and we have a great conversation in store for you today with Amit Walia CEO of Informatica. Cube alumni, frequent guest of theCUBE, now, the CEO of Informatica. Amit, great to see you. Thank you for coming on this CUBE conversation. >> Good to see you John. It's different to be doing this like this versus being in the studio with you but I'm glad that we could leverage technology to still talk to each other. >> You're usually right here, right next to me, but I'm glad to get you remotely at least and I really appreciate you. You always have some great commentary and insights. And Amit, before we get into the real meaty stuff that I'd love around the data, I want to get your thoughts on this COVID-19 crisis. It's a new reality, it's highlighted as we've been reporting on SiliconANGLE for the past few months. The at scale problems that people are facing but it's also an opportunity. People are sheltered in place, there's a lot of anxiety on what their work environment is going to look like but the world still runs. Your thoughts on the current crisis and how you're looking at it, how you're navigating it as a leader. >> No doubt, it is a very unique situation we all live in. We've never all faced something like this. So I think first of all, I'll begin by expressing my prayers for anyone out there who has been impacted by it and of course, a huge round of thank you to all the heroes out there at the front lines. The healthcare workers, the doctors, the nurses (mumbles) so we can't forget that. These are very unique situations but as you said, let's not forget that this is a health crisis first and then it becomes an economic crisis. And then, as you said there is a tremendous amount of disruption and (mumbles) I think all of them will go through some phases and I think you can see already while there is disruption in front of us, you see the digital contents of organizations who are ready for that have definitely faced it lot better but as obviously the ones that have been somewhat in the previous generations, let's just say business models or technologies models are struggling through it. So there is a lot data chain. I think they're still learning. We're absolutely still learning and we will continue to learn til the end of this year and we'll come out very different for the next decade for sure. >> If anyone who's watching goes to YouTube on the SiliconANGLE CUBE and look at your videos over the years, we've been talking about big data and these transformational things. It's been an inside the industry kind of discussion. Board room for your clients and your business and Informatica but I think this is now showing the world this digital transformation. The future has been pulled forward faster than people have been expecting it and innovation strategy has been on paper, maybe some execution but now I think it's apparent to everyone that the innovation strategy needs to start now because of this business model impact, the economic crisis is exposed. The scale of opportunities and challenges, there will be winners and losers and projects still need to get done or reset or reinvented to come out of this with growth. So this is going to be the number one conversation. What are your thoughts around this? >> No, so I've talked to hundreds of customers across the globe and we see the same thing. In fact actually, in some ways as we went through this, something very profound dawned on me. We, John, talked about digital transformation for the last few years and clearly digital transformation will accelerate but as I was talking to customers, I came to this realization that we actually haven't digitally transformed. To be honest, what happened in the last three to four years is that it was more digital modernization. A few apps got tweaked, a few front-ends got tweaked but if you realize, it was more digital modernization, not transformation because in my opinion, there are four aspects to digital transformation. You think of new products and services, you think of new models of engaging with your customers, you think of absolutely new operating models and you think of fundamentally new business models. That's a whole rewrite of an organization, which is not just creating a new application out there, fundamental end to end transformation. My belief is, our belief is that, now starts a whole new era of transformation, digital transformation. We've just gone through digital modernization. >> Well, that's a great point and the business model impacts create... And in times of these inflection points, and again, you're a student of history in the tech industry, PC revolution, TCP IP. These are big points in time. They're not transitions. The big players tend to win the transitions. When you have a transformation, it's a Cambrian explosion of new kinds of capabilities. This is really, I would agree with your point but I think it's going to be a Cambrian explosion because the business model forcing function is there. How do you see it play, 'cause you're in the middle of all this, 'cause you guys are the control plane for data in the industry as a company. You enable these new apps. Could you share your-- >> So, we see a lot of that and I think the way to think about it, I think first of all, you said it right. This is a step function changing orbit. This is a whole new... You get to a new curve, you go to a different model. It's a whole new equation you're hiking for the curve you're going to be on. It's not just changing the gradient of the curve you've been on, this is going to be a whole journey. And when we think of the new world of digital transformation, there are four elements that are taught. First of all, it has to be strategic. It has to be Board, CEO, executive topped down, fundamentally across the whole organization, across every function of an organization. Second one you talked about scale. I believe this is all about innovating at scale. It's not about, hey, let me go put a new application in some far plans of my business. You've got to innovate at scale, end to end change does not happen in bits and pieces. Third one, this is cloud native, absolutely cloud native. If there was any minuscule of doubt, this is taking it away. Cloud nativity is the fundamental differentiator and the last but not the least is digital natives, which is where everybody wants to go become a digitally transformed company that are data-led. You got to make data-led decisions. So for competence, strategic mindset, innovation at scale cloud nativity and being data-led is going to define digital transformation. >> I think that encapsulates absolutely innovation strategy. I agree with you 100%, that's really insightful. I want to also get your thoughts on some things that you're talking about and you have always had some really kind of high level conversations around this and theCUBE has been a very social organization. We'd love to be that social construct between companies and audiences but you use a term, the digital transformation, the soul of digital transformation is data 4.0. This idea of having a soul is interesting because the apps all have personalization built in. You have CLAIRE, you've been doing CLAIRE AI for a while. So this idea of social organizations, a soul is kind of an interesting piece of metadata you're putting out in the messaging. What do you mean by that? How can digital transmission have a soul? >> I think we talked about it a lot and I think it just came to me that, look at the end of the day, any transformation is so fundamental to anything that anybody does and I think if you think about, you can go to a fundamental transformation that is just qualitative, it's qualitative and quantitative. It's about a human body, it's about a human body transforming itself and then something doesn't have a soul, John, it does not have life. It cannot truly move to the next paradigm. So I believe that, any transformation has to have a soul and the digital world is all about data. So obviously, we believe that we're walking into a data-for-data world where, as I said, the four pillars of digital transformation would be data-led and I believe data is the soul of that transformation and data itself is moving into a new paradigm. You've heard us talk about 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, and this is the new world of 4.0, a data 4.0 which basically is all about cloud nativity, intelligent automation, AI powered, focusing on data, trust in data ethics and operations and innovation at scale. When you bring these elements together, then that enables digital transformation to happen on the shoulders of data 4.0, which in my opinion, is the soul of digital transformation. >> All right, so just rewind on data 4.0 for a minute. Pretend I'm a CIO, I'm super busy. I don't have time to read up about it. Give me the bottom line, what is data 4.0? Describe it to me in basic terms, is it just an advancement, acceleration? What's the quick elevator pitch on 4.0, data 4.0? >> Very simple?. We're all walking into a world where we're going to be digital. Digital means that we're basically going to be creating tons of data. By the way, and data is everywhere. It's not just within the four walls of us. It's basically what I call transaction and interaction and with the scale and volume of data increasing, the complexity of it increasing. We want to make decisions. I say, tomorrow's decision, today and with data that is available to us yesterday, so I can be better at that decision. So we need intelligence, we need automation, we need flexibility, which is where AI comes in. These are all very fundamental rewrites of the technology stack to enable a fundamental business transformation. So in that world, data is front and center and you look at the amount of data we are going to collect, the whole concept of data ethics and data trust become very important, not just Goodwill governance, governance is important but data privacy, data trust becomes very important. Then we're going to do things like contact tracing, it's very important for the society but the ethics, trust and privacy of what you and I will give to the government is going to become very much important. So to me, that world that we go in, every enterprise has to think data first, data led, build an infrastructure to support the business in that context and then, as I said, then the soul, which is data will give life to digital transformation. >> That's awesome. Love the personalization and the soul angle on it. I always believe that you guys had that intelligent automation fabric and to me, you said earlier, cloud native is apparent to everyone now. I think out of all this crisis, I think the one thing that's not going to be debated anymore is that cloud native is the operating model. I think that's pretty much a done deal at this point. So having this horizontally scalable data, you know I've been on this rant for years. I think that's the killer app. I think having horizontally scalable data is going to enable a lot, souls and more life. So I got to ask you the real, the billion dollar question. I'm a customer of yours or prospect or a large enterprise. I'm seeing what's happening at scale, provisioning of VPNs for 100% employees at home, except for the most needed workers. I now see all the things I need to either process, I need to cancel and projects that double down on. I still got to go out and build my competitive advantage. I still have to run my business. So I need to really start deploying right out of the gate data centric, data first, virtual first, whatever you want to call it, the new reality first, this inflection point. What do I do? What is the things that you see as projects or playbook recipes that people could implement? >> First of all, we see a very fundamental reevaluation of the entire business model. In fact, we have this term that we're using now that we have to think of business has a business 360 and if I think about it in this new world, that the businesses that stood the test is that had basically what I call, a digital supply chain or in a very digital scalable way of interacting with their customers, being able to engage with their customers. A digital fabric often making sure that they can bring their product and services to the customers very quickly or in some cases, if they were creating new products and services, they had the ability for a whole new supply chain to reach that end customer. And of course, a business model that is flexible so they dont obviously, they can cater to the needs of their customers. So in all of these worlds, customers are a building digital, scalable data platforms and when I say platforms, it's not about some monolithic platform. These are, as you and I have talked about, very modular microservices based platform that reside on what we call metadata. Data has to be the soul of the digital enterprise. Metadata is the nervous system, that makes it all work. That's the left brain, right brain, that makes it all work, which is where we put AI on top. AI that works for the customers and then they leverage it but AI applied to that metadata allows them to be very flexible, nimble and make these decisions very rapidly, whether they are doing analytics for tomorrow's offering to be brought in front of a customer or understanding the customer better to give them something that appeals to them in changing times or to protect the customer's data or to provide governance on top of it. Anything that you would like to do has to ride on top of what I call a, AI led metadata driven platform that can scale horizontally. >> Okay, so I got to go to the next level on this, which is, okay, you got me on that. I hear what you're saying, I agree, great. But I got to put my developers to work and I got insight, I got analytics teams, I got competencies but Amit, my complexities don't go away. I still got compliance at scale, I got governance at scale but I also got, now my developers not just to get analytical insight, there's great dashboards and there's great analytic data out there, you guys do a good job there. I got to get my developers coding so I can get that agility of the data into the apps for visualization in the app or having a key ingredient of the software. How do I do that? What's your answer to that one? >> So, that's a critic use case. If you think about it, for a developer, one of the biggest challenge for analytics project is how do I bring all the data that is in sites across the enterprise so then I can put it in any kind of visualization analytics tool and things are happening at scale. An enterprise is spread across the globe. It's so many different data sources available everywhere. Again, what we've done is that as a part of the data platform when you focus upon the metadata, that allows you to go to one place where you can have full access to all of the data assets that are available across (mumbles). Do you remember at theCUBE years ago, we unveiled the launch of our enterprise data catalog, which as I said, was the Google for enterprise data through metadata. Now, developers don't have to go start wasting their time, trying to find whether data has (mumbles), through the catalog that CLAIRE is in-built, they have access to it. They can start putting that to work and figuring out how do I take different kinds of data? How do I put it in some data times tool? Through which we have the in-built integrations. Do what I call the valuable last mile work, which is where the intelligence is needed from them versus spend their energy trying to figure out where good data, clean data, all kinds of data sets. We have eliminated all of that complexity with the help of metadata data platform, CLAIRE, to let the developers do what I call value-added productive work. >> Amit, final question for you. I know you talk to customers a lot, you're always on the road, you got a great product background, that's where you came from, good mix understanding of the business but now your customers and prospects are trynna put the fires out. The big room that... No one's going to talk about their kitchen appliances when the house is burning down and in some cases on the business model side or if it's a growth strategy, they're going to put all their energies where the action is. So getting mind share with them is going to be very difficult. How are you as a leader and how is Informatica getting in front of these folks and saying, "Look, I know things are tough "but we're an important supplier for you." How do you differentiate? How are you going to get that mind share? What are some of those conversations? 'Cause this is really the psychology of the marketplace right now, the buyer and the customer. >> Well, first of all, obviously we had to adapt to reach our customers in a different way because, virtually based just like you and I are chatting right now and to be candid, our teams were fantastic in being able to do it. We've actually already had multiple pretty big sides of it. In fact, the first week before we started (mumbles), we had set up the MDM and Data Governance Summit up in New York and we expected thousands of customers to come there, ask them (mumbles) virtual and we did it virtually and we had three times more people attend the virtual event. It was much easier for people who attended from the confines of their living room. So we'd gone 100% virtual and good news is, that our customers are heavily engaged. We've actually had more participation of customers coming and attending our events. We've had obviously our customers speaking, talking about how they've created value. In light of that next week, we have the big event which we're calling, CLAIREview named after ClAIRE AI engine. It's basically a beautiful net-filled tech experience. We'll have a keynote, we'll have seasons and episodes, people can do bite-sized viewing at their own leisure. We'll talk about all kinds of transformation. In fact, we have Scott Guthrie who runs all of Azure and Cloud at Microsoft as a part of my Keynote. We have two great customers, CDO at XXL and a CEO of GDR nonprofit that does (mumbles) on diabetes work talk about the data journeys. We have Martin Byer from Gardner. So we've been able to pivot and our customers are heavily engaged because data is a P-zero or a P-one activity for them to invest in. So we haven't seen any drop-off in customer engagement with us and we've been very blessed that we have a very loyal and a very high retention rate customer base. >> Well, I would expect that being the center of the value proposition, where we've always said data has been. One more final question since this just popped in my head. You and I have been talking about the edge for years. Certainly now the edge is exposed, we all know what the edge is, it's working at home. It's the human, it's me, it's my IOT devices. More than ever, the edge is now the new perimeter. It's the edge and now the edges is there. There's something that you've been talking a while. This is another part of data fabric that's important. Your view on this new edge that's now visualized by everybody, realized this immersion. What's your thoughts on the edge? >> Oh, I think the edge is real now. You and me chatted about that almost four years ago and I (mumbles). Look, think of it this way. Think of how security is going to change. There's no more data center to which we route our traffic anymore. It's sitting over there somewhere where no human beings is going to have access. People are connecting to all kinds of cloud application directly from their offices or living rooms or their cultures and the world of security has to change in that context. And people are more going to be more, enterprise (mumbles) are more worried about, hey, how do I make sure that that data centric, privacy and security is there in my device and that connects to the third party cloud vendors versus I can't transfer traffic to mine, everything to my VPN. So the edge is going to become a lot more compute intensive as well as it will require a lot of the elements that are, to be honest, used to be data center centric. We have to lighten them and bring them to the edge so enterprises can feel assured and working because at the end of the day, they have to run a business by the standards that an enterprise is held to. So you will see a ton of innovation, by the way, robotics. Robotics is going to make edge even more interesting in live view. So I see the next couple of years, heavy IOP edge computing, just like the clients that are modeled to mainframe that the PC became like a mainframe in terms of compute capacity. I guarantee at the desktop, compute capacity will go down to the edge and we're going to see that happen in the next five years or so. >> The edge is the new data centers. I always say, it's the land is the way, the way is the land. Amit, great to see you and thanks for sharing and I'm sorry, we can't do it in person but this has been like a fireside chat meets CUBE interview, remote. Thanks for spending the time and sharing your insights and we've always had great interviews at your events, virtual again, this year. We're going to spread it out over time, good call. Thanks for coming on, I appreciate it. >> Thanks, John, take care. >> Okay, Amit, CEO of Informatica, always great to get the conversation updates from him on the industry and what Informatica, as at the center of the value proposition data 4.0. This is really the new transformation, not transition, data science, data, data engineering, all happening. theCUBE with our remote interviews, bringing you all the coverage here from our Palo Alto studios, I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)