>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost for the week, John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program first-time guest Ildiko Vancsa, coming off the edge keynote presentation this morning. She is the ecosystem technical lead with the Edge Computing Group as part of the OpenStack Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Coming into this show, edge is one of those things that it was actually pretty exciting to talk about because edge is not only super hot, but when I thought back to previous shows, this is the sixth year we've had theCUBE here and my fifth year doing it, it's like, wait, I've been talking to all the Telcos for years here. NFV was one of those use cases, and when you connect the dots, it's like oh, edge, of course. I said this conference is actually hipster when it comes to edge. We were totally covering it well before we called it that. So, explain to us your role in the foundation and what led to the formation of this track. >> Yeah, so I'm the ecosystem technical lead within the foundation, which is basically a role that belongs under the business development team. So, I'm basically building connections with our ecosystem members. I'm trying to help them succeed with OpenStack, both as software package and as a community. We are embracing open source, of course, so I'm also trying to advocate for involvement in open source because I think that's a key. Like, you know, picking up an open source software component and use it, that's a great start, but if you really want to be successful with it and you want to be able to successfully build it into your business model, then getting involved in the community, both enhancing the software and maintaining of the software, that's really key. So, my role is also onboarding companies as well to be active members of the community, and my focus is shifting toward edge computing. The history of edge computing in OpenStack basically started last May when Beth Cohen from Verizon described their use case, which is OpenStack in a tiny box in production cycle, wow. So that was also a little bit of an eye-opener for us as well, that yes, it's telecom. It's 5G, but this is the thing that's called edge, and maybe this is something that we should also look deeper into. So, we went to San Francisco last September, OpenDev, 200 people, architects, software developers trying to figure out what edge computing is. I think we had the question at every single session, someone asked that, okay, yeah so, what did you mean exactly when you said edge? Because from the nature of the architecture, like, you have the central cloud and then the sides on the different-- >> John: There are several edges depending on how far you want to go. >> Exactly. >> For you and OpenStack, what does edge mean, or all the above? >> With OpenStack, so after OpenDev when we realized that it's not really a well-defined term, we wrote up a white paper. It's at OpenStack the role/edge. It's a short one, really to just set the ground for what edge computing is. And what we came up with is, so don't imagine like a two-sentence definition for edge computing because I still strongly believe that doesn't exist, and anyone who claims it, that's not true. What we did with the white paper is basically we set characteristics and criteria that defines cloud edge computing per se, like what people are talking about when you're moving out the compute and then working closer to the edge. Like what that means from the bandwidth perspective, from how you will manage it, what that means for security, and all these sort of things. And you can basically characterize what edge means. So we rather described these layers and how far we go, and as far as like, you know, the very end edge device and like the IOT sensors, that's not a target of OpenStack. So, OpenStack itself is infrastructure as a service, so our Edge Computing Group is still staying on that layer. The Edge Computing Group itself is focusing on the angles, what edge brings onto the table, all these requirements, you know, collecting the use cases and trying to figure out what's missing, what we need to implement. >> If can repeat and maybe I'll get it right or wrong. The idea is at a cell tower or at a remote office or branch office or some closet somewhere, there is a full set of OpenStack running, maybe a minimal set of OpenStack, but it's live, it's updatable. You can update services on it. You can update the actual OpenStack itself, and it doesn't need the spoke hardware necessarily, but it's now updatable and part of a bigger multi-cloud infrastructure from some sort of service entity or enterprise. >> Yeah. >> Is that fair? >> I think that's fair. So, there's OpenStack itself that people know very well, a lot of projects. So when we talk about edge, obviously we don't want to say that, okay, pick the whole thing and install all the 60 projects because that's really not suitable for edge. So what, for example, the group is looking into, that which OpenStack components are essential for edge. And also the group is defining small edge, medium edge, what that means from hardware footprint perspectives, so just to figure out what the opportunities are there, what will fit, what will not fit. OpenStack itself is very modular by today, so you can pick up the services that you need. So what we discussed, for example, this week is Keystone, identity, you need it of course. So how much that fits into the edge scenarios. And I think the main conclusion of the forum session yesterday was that, yeah, Keystone supports Federation. We talked through the cases, and it seems like that it's kind of there. So, we now need a few people who will sit down, put together the environment, and start testing it because that's when it comes out that, you know, almost there, but there a few things to tweak. But basically the idea is what you described, pick up the component, put it there, and work with it. We also have another project called Cyborg, which is fairly new. That's for hardware acceleration, so it is providing a framework to plug in GPUs, FPJs, and these sort of, a bit more specialized hardware which will be really useful for edge use cases to OpenStack. So that's for example something that China Mobile and the OPNFV Edge Cloud Group is looking into to use, so I really hope that we will get there this year to test it in the OPNFV Pharos Labs in action. So we also have pretty great cross-community collaboration on trying to figure this whole thing out. >> Yeah, it often helps if we have examples to talk about to really explain this. Beth Cohen, we spoke with her last year and absolutely caught our attention. Got a lot of feedback from the community on it. Had Contron on earlier this week talking about, John was saying, here's some small device there with a little blade and is running pieces of OpenStack there to be able to run. Anything from the keynote or, boy, I think there's 40 sessions that you've got here. If you can, give us a couple of examples of some of the use cases that we're seeing to kind of bring this edge to reality. >> Example use cases is, we just heard this morning, for example, someone from the textile industry like how to detect issues with the fabric. So this is like one new manufacturing use case. I also heard another one, which is not checking the fabric itself, but basically the company who manufactures those machines that they are using to create the fabric, so they would like to have a central cloud and have it connected to the factories. So, being able to monitor how the machines are doing, how they can improve those machines, and also within the factory to monitor all the circumstances. Because for all the chemical processes, it's really important that the temperature and everything else is just, you know, clicks because otherwise all your fabrics will have to go to trash. So, that's manufacturing. A lot of telecom 5G, obviously that is really, really heavy because that's the part of the industry which is there today, so with 5G, all those strict requirements. This is really what we are mainly focusing on today. We are not specializing anything for telecom and in 5G use cases, but we want to make sure that all our components fit into that environment as well. In the white paper, for example, you also could see the retail use case. I'm not sure whether that will be exactly on stage this week, but that is also a great example on like Walmart with the lot of stores around, so how you manage those stores because they're also not wanting to do everything centrally. So, they would like to move the functionality out. What if the network connectivity is cut? They still have to be able to operate the store as nothing happened. So, there are a lot of segments of the industry who already have kind of really well-defined use cases. And what we see is that there's many overlapping between the requirements from the different segments that we're going to address. >> Are we seeing things like AI and ML coming up in these conversations also? >> Yes, like I think it was the manufacturing use case when I heard that they are planning to use that, and it's popping up. I think as far as our group is concerned, we are more looking into, I don't know, let's say lower-level requirements like how you maintain and operate the hundreds and thousands of edge sites, what happens with security, what happens with monitoring, what happens with all these sort of things. Like we have a new project rolling in under the foundation umbrella called Airship, which is basically deployment and lifecycle management, which is supposed to address one of the aspect that you were talking about on, okay, so how you manage this, how you upgrade this. And upgrade is, again, a really interesting question because I think I talked to someone yesterday who was like, yes, the Contron guys, they were saying that yeah, upgrade, it's really ambitious. So let say that maybe 18, 24 month or something like some kind of tech operator will decide to upgrade something out in the edge because it's out there, it's working, let's not touch this. So when we talk about upgrade, even that, I think, will depend on the bits of the industry that, what pace they will decide to take. >> Are there any particular surprises or learnings that you've had this year after talking with this community for a week now? You said, well, last year, I was very impressed last year when they got up on stage and talked about that. That kind of expanded my mind a little bit. You've been working with this now for a year, this whole track and forum sessions. Anything you're excited about taking to the future or learnings or surprises that, oh, this is really going to work or anything like that? Any parts of it that are really interesting? You talked about security upgrades. We've talked about a lot of the technical components, but it seems like it's working. >> I think at this point, at least on my end, I think I'm over the surprise phase. So what surprises me the most is how many groups there are out there who are trying to figure out what this whole edge thing is. And what we need to really focus on among the technical requirements is that how we are working together with all these groups just to make sure that the integration between the different things that we are all developing and working on is smooth. So like, we've been working together with the OPNFV community for a while now. It's a really fruitful relationship between us. Like seeing OpenStack being deployed in a full-stack environment and being tested, that's really priceless. And we are planning to do the same thing with edge as well, and we are also looking into ONAP, Aquino, Et-see-mac, so looking into the open source groups, looking into the standardization and really just trying to ensure that when we talk about open infrastructure, that that really is designed and developed in a way that integrates well with the other components. It's synchronized with the standardization activities because I think especially in case of edge, when we say interoperability, that's a level higher than what we call the interoperability on the telecom level I think. Like when you just imagine one operator network and applications from other providers popping up in that network, and components that just realizing the network popping up from different vendors. And this whole thing has to work together. So, I think OpenStack and open infrastructure has a really big advantage there compared to any proprietary solution because we have to address this, I think, really big challenge, and it's also a really important challenge. >> Ildiko, really appreciate you giving us all the updates here on the edge track, the keynote, definitely one of the areas that is capturing our attention and lots of people out there. So, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for the opportunity. >> All right, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Lots more coverage here from the OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE.

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with co-host this week is John Troyer. I'm happy to welcome to the program, first time guest. It's Anne Bertucio, who is the Kata Containers Community Manager with the OpenStack Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> All right, it's our pleasure and the containers has been a discussion we've been having for a few years now. I remember when we were last year in Vancouver, three years ago that the joke was it was Docker, Docker, Docker year. Tell us a little bit first your role, how long you've been with the foundation, and what you're covering there. >> Absolutely, I've been with the foundation for going on three years at this point. The Kata Containers Project we announced in December. It's come up and come in there as a community manager helping them figure out since December to the launch now, in less than six months we had to figure out how are we going to work together. How are we going to merge two code bases and we have to create a new open source project and new community. So leading that has been a big part of my work. >> So there's a whole track on Containers now. Give us a little bit of flavor for our audience that couldn't be sitting in the keynote and attend all the sessions. What were they missing? >> I think the major theme was security. Mia, she's the PM of security at Google. She opened it up saying containers don't contain. And I almost wished we'd been on a game show. Like containers don't contain. That was the theme of the day and we talked about where did Kata come from? Kata came from how do we answer that question. I think people got so excited about performance and portability about containers. We forgot about security a little bit and now we're seeing some of the ramifications and it's time to make this the year of security. >> So you talk about bringing two code basis together. Can you talk a little bit about what some of the ingredients are here to get to our dish that we finally call Kata Containers Projects? >> Yeah, absolutely, so we have ren-V from Hyper and we had Clear Containers from Intel. And they both looked at things a little differently like Hyper has a fracty implementation that was really critical to their customers. Clear Containers are becoming a little bit from runC Vert containers. And what we arrive at for 1.0 is the OCI compatible runtime is going to put a lightweight VM around your container, and we're thrilled to look beyond 1.0 and to things like supporting hardware accelerators. >> So it may be just to raise it up one level before we go on. How do containers in some sense, let's repeat maybe what you said, see if I get it right. >> Anne: Yeah. >> It's wrapping a container and a lightweight VM. And that gives us the isolation and security that's traditionally associated with a virtual machine with all the APIs and flexibility and performance, and all the other goodness of a container. One container in one VM is the first implementation. >> Yeah, I think the easy way to think about, you're talking about Docker Docker Docker. So in Kata, really instead of using runC as your runtime, we would just say Kata runtime, and now we have our Docker containers but they're wrapped in these light weight VMs each with their own kernel. >> I think back to the early days when we were trying to figure out what these whole containers were and was that the death of virtualization? It was like VMs, gosh they take minutes to spin up, and container is super fast. Security, oh VMs yeah, there's security there but we need to move fast, fast, fast. So explain how this helps bring together the peanut butter and chocolate, if we will? >> Absolutely, oh I love peanut butter and chocolate but that's really what it is. Like you were saying virtualization, yes. Super secure, slow. I think I have a clip art chart with a sad turtle on it. A little bit slower. The container is super fast, we're getting a little nervous about security. I think we maybe see groups and name spaces are good, but people who are enterprise environments. They've been putting full blown VMs around their containers 'cause they were saying well it's not enough. And I need two isolation boundaries, not just one. >> Right, in terms of some of the use cases then. I imagine multitenancy would be one and then perhaps even, I think some of the newest trend defense in depth of even an individual app putting different zones in different components or different risk zones in their own containers, their own VMs. Even inside an individual app just making sure that the different components can only talk to each other in ways that they're suppose to. >> Absolutely, I think it's anytime where you're running untrusted code, or you have questions about what's going on there or you just want a heightened security. Kata is an easy used case then. >> Sure, I guess my VMware call it microsegmentation would be their buzz word on it. >> Oh I got to think about what mine is going to be. >> Or we can all use the same words, it's good. >> So Anne, Intel Clear Containers was a piece of this. Of course Intel partners with everyone there. Give us a little bit also the ecosystem and the team that makes this up. Is this, people out there will be like, oh, well but Docker has their solution and VMware has their solution. How does this fit into the broader ecosystem? >> Our team is incredibly diverse. I've just been thrilled with 1.0. We had 40 contributors from a good diversity of companies. Our architecture committee, it's Google, it's Huawei, Hyper, Intel and Microsoft and I think we've, I was saying in the other note the other day. I was on a call for a architecture committee and we had AMD, ARM and Intel all talking about the same solution. So it's the beauty of open source that we've brought all of these groups together. >> One of the things that also struck us especially if we've been here. The diversity of the show is always really good. The main keynote, it's not oh, did they brought up some people of diversities. Oh no, these are the project leads and therefore they're doing this. Can you touch on some of the diversity and activities at the show itself? >> In terms of technologies, we're looking at or? >> No, I just, so there is, I'm just saying you talked about the community, the diversity of companies as well, the diversity of people. So we've got lots of the women inclusion. >> Oh sure. >> Things like that. >> Yeah, I know we had the executive producer of Chasing Grace was here and I know she's been, Jennifer Clower, is that correct? >> Stu: Yes, Jennifer Clower. We actually interviewed her last week at a different show. >> Oh fantastic. Yeah her document has been incredibly well received. I know she's making the rounds to get the word out there about what's going on with Women in Tech. And we were more than thrilled to host her and have her here and be apart of conversation. >> Clear Community is a big part of OpenStack, the OpenStack Summit and care of the OpenStack Foundation. In terms of Kata Containers, you work for the OpenStack Foundation. Is Kata officially then part of the OpenStack or does that have a different governance model? >> That's a great question. This is an area of confusion because it's the first time the foundation is broken out and there's the OpenStack Project, and there's Kata Containers the Project, but we both live at the OpenStack Foundation. >> John: Okay. >> I think the guiding principles though, and it's really helped us over the last four months is that the OSF, OpenStack Foundation, we believe in open source, open design, open development and open community. And Kata, we were like that's a great home. We believe in that as well. >> Any customers that are yet talking about their early usage of Kata that you can share? >> I think we have a lot of customers from runV and Clear Containers and Kata is going to be their next path forward. So with 1.0 out yesterday, I'm excited to see. We should see some upgrades real soon here. >> What's the path for them to get from where they are to the 1.0? Is that pretty straightforward? >> It should be, yeah, we think so. And they have their support from Intel and from Hyper to help them out with that as well. >> Stu: Okay. >> I was going to ask is Kata Containers, is it integrated in an API or is OpenStack necessary for it or is it independent of, from an infrastructure perspective, OpenStack, the stack? >> Yeah, it's completely independent, but it's also compatible. >> John: Okay. >> You can run on Azure, Google, OpenStack, agnostic of the infrastructure underneath it. >> John: Great. >> Anne, want to give you a final word. Takeaways from the show that you'd want people to have. >> Absolutely, I think the final word is containers are fantastic, it's probably time to take a look at your container architecture. Think about it from a security perspective, and I would encourage everyone to go check out Kata Containers and see if that's the solution for them. >> Anne Bertucio, really appreciate you joining and sharing with us everything happening. It can work with or without the OpenStack Containers. Absolutely a big trend, but security absolutely top of mind from everyone we've talked to. If it's not top of mind of a company, I'm always a little bit worried about them. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (uptempo techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman, with my cohost John Troyer, and happy to welcome to the program, fresh off the container keynote, Chris Hodge, who's the senior strategic program manager with the OpenStack Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Oh yeah, thanks so much for having me. >> Alright, so short trip for you, then John's coming from the Bay Area, I'm coming from the east coast. You're coming up from Portland, which is where it was one of the attendees at the Portland OpenStack Summit, they said, "OpenStack has arrived, theCUBE's there." So, shout out to John Furrier and the team who were there early. I've been to all the North America ones since. You've been coming here for quite a while and it's now your job. >> I've been to every OpenStack Summit since then. And to the San Francisco Summit prior to that, so it was, yeah, I've been a regular. >> Okay so for those people that might not know, what's a Foundation member do these days? Other than, you know, you're working on some of the tech, you're giving keynotes, you know, what's a day in the life? >> Yeah, I mean, I mean for me, I feel like I'm really lucky because the OpenStack Foundation, you know, has you know, kind of given me a lot of freedom to go interact with other communities and that's been one of my primary tasks, to go out and work with adjacent communities and really work with them to build integrations between OpenStack and right now, particularly, Kubernetes and the other applications that are being hosted by the CNCF. >> Yeah, so I remember, and I've mentioned it a few times this week, three years ago we were sitting in the other side of the convention center, with theCUBE and it was Docker, Docker, Docker. The container sessions were overflowing and then a year later it was, you know, oh my gosh, Kubernetes. >> Chris: Yeah. (chuckles) >> This wave of, does one overtake the other, how do they fit together, and you know, in the keynotes yesterday and I'm sure your keynote today, talked a lot a bit about you know, the various ways that things fit together, because with open source communities in general and tech overall, it's never binary, it's always, it depends, and there's five different ways you could put things together depending on your needs. So, what are you seeing? >> I mean it's almost, yeah, I mean saying that it's one or the other and that one has to win and the other has to lose is actually kind of, it's kind of silly, because when we talk about Kubernetes and we talk about Docker, we're generally talking about applications. And, you know, and, with Kubernetes, when you're very focused on the applications you want to have existing infrastructure in place. I mean, this is what it's all about. People talk about, "I'm going to run my Kubernetes application "on the cloud, and the cloud has infrastructure." Well, OpenStack is infrastructure. And in fact, it is open source, it's an open source cloud. And so, so for me it feels like it's a very natural match, because you have your open application delivery system and then it integrates incredibly well with an open source cloud and so whether you're looking for a public cloud running on OpenStack or you're hosting a private cloud, you know, to me it's a very natural pairing to say that you have an OpenStack cloud, you have a bunch of integrations into Kubernetes and that the two work together. >> I think this year that that became a lot clearer, both in the keynotes and some of the sessions. The general conversation we've had with folks about the role of Kubernetes or an orchestration or the cloud layer, the application layer, the application deployment layer say, and the infrastructure somebody's got to manage the compute the network storage down here. At least, in this architectural diagram with my hands but, you can also, a couple of demos here showed deploying Kubernetes on bare metal alongside OpenStack, with that as the provider. Can you talk a little bit about that architectural pattern? It makes sense, I think, but then, you know, it's a apparent contradiction, wait a minute so now the Kubernetes is on the bare metal? So talk about that a little bit. >> So, I think, I think one of the ways you can think about resolving the contradiction is OpenStack is a bunch of applications. When you go and you install OpenStack we have all of these microsurfaces that are, some are user facing and some are controlling the architecture underneath. But they're applications and Kubernetes is well-suited for application delivery. So, say that you're starting with bare metal. You're starting with a bare metal cloud. Maybe managed by OpenStack, so you have OpenStack there at the bottom with Ironic, and you're managing your bare metal. You could easily install Kubernetes on that and that would be at your infrastructure layer, so this isn't Kubernetes that you're giving to your users, it's not Kubernetes that you're, you know, making world facing, this is internally for your organization for managing your infrastructure. But, you want OpenStack to provide that cloud infrastructure to all of your users. And since OpenStack is a big application with a lot of moving parts, Kubernetes actually becomes a very powerful tool, or any other container orchestration scheme becomes a very powerful tool for saying that you drop OpenStack on top of that and then all of a sudden you have a public cloud that's available for, you know, for the users within your organization, or you could be running a public cloud and providing those services for other people. And then suddenly that becomes a great platform for hosting Kubernetes applications on, and so the layers kind of interleave with one another. But even if you're not interested in that. Let's say you're running Kubernetes as bare metal and you're just, you want to have Kubernetes here providing some things. There's still things that OpenStack provides that you may already have existing in your infrastructure. >> Kubernetes kind of wants, it wants to access some storage. >> It wants to consume storage for example, and so we have OpenStack Cinder, which right now it supports you know, somewhere between, you know over 70 storage drivers, like these drivers exist and the nice thing about it is... You have one API to access this and we have two drivers within that, two Cinder drivers, you can either choose the, the flex volume storage or the container storage interface, the CSI storage interface. And Cinder just provides that for you. And that means if you have mixed storage within your data center, you put it all behind a Cinder API and you have one interface to your Kubernetes. >> So Chris, I believe that's one of the pieces of I believe it's called the Cloud Provider OpenStack. You talked about in the keynote. Maybe walk us through with that. >> Cloud Provider OpenStack is a project that is hosted within the, within the Kubernetes community. And it's... The owner of that code is the SIG OpenStack community inside of Kubernetes. I'm one of the three leads, one of the three SIG leads of that group and, that code does a number of things. The first is there's a cloud manager interface that is a consistent interface for Kubernetes to access infrastructure information in clouds. So information about a node, when a node joins a system, Kubernetes will know about it. Ways to attach storage, ways to provision load balancers. The cloud manager interface allows Kubernetes to do this on any cloud, whether it be Azure or GCE or Amazon. Also OpenStack. Cloud Provider OpenStack is the specific code that allows us to do that, and in fact we were, OpenStack was one of the first providers that existed in upstream Kubernetes you know, so it's kind of, we've been there since the very beginning, like this has been a, you know, an effort that's happened from the beginning. >> Somewhat non-ironically, right? A lot of that you've talked about, the OpenStack Foundation and this OpenStack Summit, a lot of the things talked about here are not OpenStack per se, the components, they are containers, there's the OpenDev Conference here, colocated. Is there confusion, there doesn't, I'm getting it straight in my head, Is there, was there, did you sense any confusion of folks here or is that, if you're in it you understand what's going on and why all these different threads are flowing together in kind of an open infrastructure conversation. It seems like the community gets it and understand it and is broadened because of it. >> Yeah, I mean, to me I've seen a tremendous shift over the last year in the general understanding of the community of the role all of these different applications play. And I think it's really, it's actually a testament to the success of all of these projects, in particular, we're building open APIs, we're building predictable behavior, and once you have that, and you have many people, many different organizations that are able to provide that, they're all able to communicate with one another and leverage the strengths of the other projects. >> All of a sudden, a standard interface, low and behold, right? A thousand flowers bloom on top. >> You know, it essentially allows you to build new things on top of that, new more interesting things. >> Alright, Chris, any interesting customer stories out of the keynote that we should share with the audience? >> I mean, there are so many fantastic stories that you can talk about, I mean, of course we saw the CERN keynote, where they're running managed Kubernetes on top of OpenStack. They have over 250 Kubernetes clusters doing research that are managed by OpenStack Magnum. I mean that's just, to me that's just tremendous. That this is being used in production, it's being used in science, and it's not just across one cloud, it's across many clouds and, You know, we also have AT&T, which has been working very hard on combining OpenStack and Kubernetes to manage their next generation of, of teleco infrastructure. And so, they've been big drivers along with SK Telecom on using Kubernetes as an infrastructure layer and then putting OpenStack on top of that, and then delivering applications with that. And so those are, you know we, the OpenStack Foundation just published on Monday a new white paper about OpenStack, how OpenStack works with containers and these are just a couple of the case studies that we actually have listed in that white paper. >> Chris, you're at the interface between OpenStack, which has become more mature and more stable, and containers, which, although it is maturing is still a little bit, is moving fast, right? Containers and Kubernetes both, a lot of development. Every summit, a lot of new projects, lot of new ways of installing, lot of new components, lot of new snaps. All sorts of things. What are you looking forward to now over the next year in terms of container maturity and how that's going to help us? >> So... People are talking so much now about security with containers and this is another really exciting thing that's coming out of our work because, you know, during one of the container keynotes, one of the things that was kind of driven home was containers don't contain. But, we're actually, at the OpenStack Foundation, we're kind of taking that on, and we, and my colleague Anne Bertucio has been leading a project, you know, has been community manager for a product called Kata Containers, which is, you know, you could almost call it containers that do contain. So I think that this is going to be really exciting in the next year as we talk more and more about we're building more generic interfaces and allowing all sorts of new approaches to solving complex problems, be it in security, be it in performance, be it in logging and monitoring. And so, I think, so the tools that are coming out of this and you know, creating these abstractions and how people are creatively innovating on top of those is pretty exciting. >> The last thing I'm hoping you can help connect the dots for us on is, when we talk Kubernetes, we're talking about multi-cloud. One of the big problems about Kubernetes, you know, came out of Google from you know, if you just say, "Why would Google do this?" It's like, well, there's that one really big cloud out there and if I don't have some portability and be able to move things, that one cloud might just continue to dominate. So, help connect OpenStack to how it lives in this multi-cloud world. Kubernetes is a piece of that, but you know, maybe, would love your viewpoint. >> Yeah, so. This is happening on so many levels. We see lots of large organizations who want to take back control of the cost of cloud and the cost of their cloud infrastructure and so they're starting to pull away from the big public clouds and invest more in private infrastructure. We see this with companies like eBay, we see it with companies like AT&T and Walmart, where they're investing heavily in OpenStack clouds. So that they have more control over the cost and how their applications are delivered. But you're also seeing this in a lot of... Like especially municipalities outside of the United States, you know, different governments that have data restrictions, restrictions on where data lives and how it's accessed, and we're seeing more governments and more businesses overseas that are turning to OpenStack as a way to have cloud infrastructure that is on their home soil, that you know, kind of meets the requirements that are necessary, you know that are necessary for them. And then kind of the third aspect of all of this is sometimes you just, sometimes you need to have lots of availability across, you know, many clouds. And you can have a private cloud, but possibly, in order to serve your customers, you might need public cloud resources, and federation across, across this, both in OpenStack and Kubernetes is improving at such an incredible pace that it becomes very easy to say that I have two, three, four, five clouds, but we're able to, we're able to combine them all and make them all look like one. >> Alright, well Chris Hodge, we really appreciate the updates on OpenStack and Kubernetes in all the various permutations. >> Yeah, it was great talking about it. This is, I mean this is the work that I love and I'm excited about, and this is, you know, I'm looking forward to it, I have fun with it and I keep looking forward to everything that's coming. >> Awesome, well we love to be able to share these stories, the technologists, the customers and everything going on in the industry. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (tech music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 here in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost, John Troyer. And happy to welcome back to the program, fresh off the keynote stage, Mark Collier, who's the chief operating officer of the OpenStack Foundation. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me back. >> Thank you for having us back and thank you again for doing the show in Vancouver, so-- >> Oh man, such an amazing place. Like this convention center, I don't think it's fair to call it a convention center because it's like a work of art, you know? >> And it's my second time here for this show, and I think kudos to your team because you have good enough content that people aren't just wandering around, taking pictures of the mountains. My wife is off seizing the whale watching right now, but everybody else here, they're engaged. And that's what you want in the community. >> Yeah, definitely. I guess you have to make sure you don't lose their attention to the whales and the sea planes, but so far everyone seems to be gettin' down to business. >> You know, I think it would be fair to say that there's some transitions going on in the marketplace in general, and at this show I notice when I got the invitation, it's like the OpenStack slash open infrastructure summit. Got a big track on edge computing, got another one on containers, been talking about containers for a few years at this show, which really interesting to talk about. And I mean, the edge stuff, we were talking about it as NFV and the telcos and all that stuff in the past. What is the OpenStack Summit these days, Mark? >> Yeah, I mean I think that it's evolving to reflect what people are doing with open source when it comes to infrastructure. And so we call it open infrastructure, but basically it's just a world of possibilities have been opened up by, of course, OpenStack, but also many, many other components, some of which came before like Linux and things like that, and some of which started after, like Kubernetes, and there's many other examples, TensorFlow for AI machine learning. So there's kind of this like embarrassment of riches these days if yo want to automate your infrastructure in a cloud-like fashion. You can do so many more things with it, and OpenStack solves a very specific, very important layer which is that kind of traditional infrastructure as a service layer, compute storage and networking. But once you automate that, it's proven, it's reliable, you could run millions of cores with it like some of our users are doing. You want to do more and that means layering other things on top or sort of connecting them in different ways. So just trying to help users get something more out of the technology is really what we're about and OpenStack becomes like an enabler rather than kind of like the whole conversation. Yeah, one of the things I always say in this industry, sometimes we just don't have the right expectations going into these environments. You know, when I think back 15 years ago as to what we thought Linux was going to do. Oh it's going to crush Microsoft. It's like, well, Microsoft is still doing quite well and Linux has done phenomenal. We wouldn't have companies like, Google if it wasn't for the likes of Linux. In an open source you've got a lot of tools out there. So while there are the CERNs and Walmarts of the world that take a full OpenStack distribution and put out tons of cores, I've run into software companies where when I dig into their IP, oh what do ya know, there's a project from OpenStack in there that enables what they're doing. So I've seen at a lot of shows they're like, there's companies that are like, yes, I want it, and then there's like, oh no, there's this piece of it I want, there's that piece what I want. And that's kind of the wonder of OpenStack that I can do all of those things. >> Yeah exactly. I think we've talked before about sort of calling it composable open infrastructure, and making, OpenStack's always been architecturally designed from, in terms of the goals around it, to be pluggable so from the beginning you could plug multiple hypervisors kind of underneath and you could plug different backends for storage and networking, so that sort of concept of being something, integration engine that plugs things in is part of the OpenStack kind of philosophy, but now you see that the OpenStack services themselves are sort of, you can think of them as microservices, and like if you just need block storage you can use sender. And that may make sense for some specific environments, and are you running OpenStack? Well, you are, but it gets a little bit fuzzy in terms of are you running all of it or part of it? And the reality is the things are not as simple as a binary yes or no. It's just that the options are much greater now. >> Well Mark, that has been some of the discussion in the community over the last few years, the core versus the big tent, and now of course with all this interoperability, conversations with both OpenStack participating in other communities and other communities here today, this week. I mean, what's the current state of that conversation about what is OpenStack and how does it interrelate? I think you kind of touched on it with this composable idea. >> Yeah, I mean I think that basically it's kind of like OpenStack is as OpenStack does, you know? So what are people doing with it and that tells you kind of what it is and what people are doing with it. There are a lot of different patterns. There's no like one specific deployment pattern that everyone uses, but probably by and large, by far the most common pattern is OpenStack plus Kubernetes. And so when you talk about the interop piece, this is a really good example where OpenStack has evolved to become a better, kind of better citizen, I guess, of open infrastructure by having more reliable APIs, kind of being a target that tools that build on top can rely on and not sort of have to worry about the snowflakes of different clouds and there's still more work to be done in that area, but we talked about OpenLab, which is an initiative, this morning, that puts together OpenStack, Kubernetes, and other pieces like Terraform and things like that, and does constant end-to-end testing on it, and that's really how you make sure that you know kind of what combinations work well together, and sometimes you just find bugs, and it turns out a couple of changes need to be made upstream in Kubernetes or in OpenStack or in gophercloud or in Terraform, and just if you don't know, then the user kind of with the some assembly required model, finds out and they're like, I don't know, it doesn't work, it's broken. Well, is it OpenStack's fault or Kubernetes's fault, and they don't, they just want it to work. >> So you're saying >> Identified upstream we can fix it. >> You're saying OpenStack has become more of a stable layer of the (mumbles). >> Yes exactly, yes. It has become a much more stable layer. >> Which means there wasn't a whole lot of flashy storage network and compute up on stage actually. >> A lot of the talk-- >> Yeah, it's a really good point. I think it's just really proven in that way, and you know, one of the things that was highlighted was like the virtual GPUs, right? So, if OpenStack is designed to be pluggable, what do people want to have as an option now in terms of compute storage and networking, on the compute side is they want GPUs, because that gives an AI machine learning much faster, if they're bit coin miners, like I'm sure you all are in your basement, they're going to want GPUs. And what was really interesting is that the PTL, like the technical leader of the Nova Project, got up and talked about virtual GPUs. I was back in the green room and like three of the other keynote speakers were like, oh man, we are so excited about this VGPU support. Like, our customers are asking for it, the guy, Mohammad from Vexos, is the CEO of Vexos, he said, our customers are demanding this queens release, which is the latest OpenStack, and we were kind of surprised, they just really want this queens release. So we asked them why and they're like well they want VGPU. So that's kind of an example of an evolution in OpenStack itself, but it's an extension, enabler for things like GPUs, and that's kind of an exciting area as well. >> You know, it's interesting because in previous years it was the major release was one of the main things we talked about. Queens, as you mentioned, other than the VGPUs and that little discussions, spent a lot more time outside, talked to a lot of the users. You talked about the new tracks that were there. And something I heard a lot this year that I hadn't heard for a few years was, get involved, we're looking to build. And I was trying to think of a sports analogy, and maybe it was like, okay, we're actually building more of a league here and we're looking to recruit as opposed to or is it rebuilding what exactly OpenStack 2.0 is in the future? >> Yeah, that's a really interesting point. You're absolutely right, and I can imagine or can remember sort of talking to some of the speakers as they were working on their content, and I don't think I totally picked up that that was a big trend, but you're absolutely right, that was a major call to action from so many different people. I think it's because when we think about what we are as a community, I talked about how we're a community of people who build and operate open infrastructure, and it's really about solving problems, and if you're as open to community collaboration and you want to solve problems, you can't be afraid to stand up and say we have problems. And sometimes maybe that feels awkward. It's like the tech 101 is get up and say you solved all the problems and you should buy it today. It's online or downloaded or whatever. And I think we just realized that the magic of our community is solving problems. There's always going to be more problems to solve, now you're putting more pieces together, which means the pieces themselves have to evolve and the testing and integration has to evolve. Like it's just a new set of challenges and sort of saying, here's what we're trying to solve, it's not done, help us, actually is more, I think, true to kind of what the community is all about. >> I'm wondering, do we know how many people are at the show this year? >> I don't have the exact count. I think it's around 2600, something like that. >> Yeah, so fair to say it might be a little bit less than last year's North America show? >> Yeah, it is a little bit less. >> And what are you hearing from the user? What are the main things they come for? That you got the new tracks, you've got the open dev conference co-located. What kind of key themes can you get from the users? >> Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that we found is that we have twice as many cloud architects this year than a year ago. So I think there's always this period of time where conference attendance is driven by curiosity. Like, I've heard about this thing, what is it, or it's the cool factor, hype curves and all that stuff, I want to learn about it. At this point people know what OpenStack is. We've got tons of ways you can learn about it. There's local meetups, there's OpenStack Days all over the world, there's content, videos online. It's just not like a mystery anymore. Like the mystery draws in kind of the people that are just poking around to learn. Now we're at that point of, okay I know what it is, I know what it's for, I want to architect a solution around it, so seeing twice as many cloud architects I think is an interesting data point to think about how we're shifting more towards, people are not asking if it's proven, they're like it's been proven for whatever, two, three years, however, the perception is, but the technology is just very, very solid. It's running infrastructure all over the world, the largest banks and so on and so, I think that's kind of how things are shifting to what else can we do and put on top of it, now that it's a solid foundation. >> I wonder, sometimes there's that buzz as to what's going on out there. There was a certain large analyst firm that wrote a report a couple months ago that wasn't all that favorable about OpenStack. There's others that watching on Twitter during the keynote, and they're like, they're spending all their time talking about containers, why isn't this just part of the Cloud Native Con, KubCon show? What's the foundation's feedback on, what are you hearing kind of, what's your core deliverables? And why this show should continue in the future? >> Sure, I mean I think that what we're hearing generally from users and seeing in our data as well as from analysts like 451 and IDC, those are a couple of different reports coming out, like right now or just came out, that Jonathan mentioned this morning, I think is adoption just continues to grow, and so you know, I think people are not looking at just one technology stack. And maybe they never were, but I think there was this kind of temptation to just think of it, is it containers versus VMs or is it Kubernetes versus OpenStack? And it's like, no one who really runs infrastructure thinks like that because they might have thought it until they tried it, they realized these things go together. So I think the future of this conference is just becoming more and more centered around what are the use cases? What are the technical challenges we're trying to solve? And to the extent we're getting patterns and tools that are emerging like the lamp stack of the cloud, so to speak. How can people adopt them? So you think about cloud as taking all kinds of new forms, edge computing, those are the kinds of things that I think will become a bigger part of the conference in the future. I do like the open infrastructure angle on this. I mean, as infrastructure folks, right, you know that that storage compute network doesn't manage itself, doesn't configure itself. >> Mark: Totally. >> Doesn't provision itself. And so a lot of the app layer things should rely on this lower layer. And I thought last year in Boston there was this kind of curious OpenStack or containers conversation, which seemed odd at the time, and that's clarified, I think, at a number of levels from a number of camps and vendors. >> Yeah I agree, I think we have done our best from our point of view, from the foundation, myself, and the others that are involved in our community to try to dispell those myths or tamper down that kind of sense of a rivalry, but it takes time and I do feel like there is kind of a sea change now. There are just so many people running in production with various container tools, predominantly Kubernetes and in OpenStack that I think that that sort of myth that they're, that one's replacing the other, it's hard for that cognitive dissonance to last forever when you're given like the hundredth example of like somebody running in production at scale. Like they must be doing it for a reason, and then people start to go, well why is that? >> And I did like the comment you did make about cloud is not consolidating and simplifying, right? Even at the Dell Technologies World show, Michael Dell got up and talked about the distributed core, which is a little bit of an oxymoron, but the fact is compute and compute is everywhere, right? And it's not only, it's on the edge, it's on telephone poles, it's in little boxes in our, you know, going to be on our walls, in our walls, right? And this open infrastructure idea can play everywhere. It's not just about an on-prem data center anymore. >> Yeah and I think that's a big part of why we started to say open infrastructure instead of cloud, just because, I mean, you know, I guess we spent 10 years arguing over the definition of cloud, now we can argue over open infrastructure. But to me it's a little more descriptive and a little less kind of, I don't know, a little less baggage than the term cloud. >> Yeah, definitely differentiates it as to where you sit in the marketplace. And one thing I definitely want to give the foundation great kudos on, the diversity of this show is excellent. Not just that there was a welcome happy hour and there's a lunch, but look at all the PTLs, the project leads that are there, a lot of diversity, up on stage. It's just evident. >> Mark: Thank you. >> And it's just something kind of built into the community, so great job there. >> Thank you, I'm very proud of the fact that we had just so many excellent keynote speakers this morning, and you know, that's always something that we strive for, but I feel like we got closer to the goal than ever in terms of just getting broad representation up on the stage. And some amazing leaders. >> It's always nice from our standpoint because we always say give us your keynote speakers and give us some of the main people making things happen, and it just naturally flows that we have a nice diversity, from gender, from geography. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> From various backgrounds, so that's good. All right, want to give you the final word. Take aways that you want people after the show or maybe some things that people might not know if they didn't make it here for the show. >> I mean, I think, you know, the number one take away is it's all about the people, and we want to make it about the headlines or the technology, and even the technology is about the people, but certainly the operators are not, like I said, logos don't operate clouds or infrastructure, people do, so getting to meet the people, seeing what they're doing, like the Adobe I mentioned, they're marketing cloud. They have 100,000 cores of compute with four people operating it. So if you've got the right four people and the right playbook, you can do that, too. But you got to meet those people and find out how they're doing it, get their recipe, get their playbook, and they're happy to share it, and then you can run at that kind of scale, too, without a big team and you can change the way you operate. >> Yeah, I know I said in my last question, but the last thing, I know there's been a big emphasis to not just do the two big shows a year, but the OpenStack days and other events globally, give people, how do they get involved and where can they come to find out more? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I'm glad you asked because, there are so many ways to get involved and of course it's online, it's IRC, it's mailing lists 24/7, but there's no substitute when it's about the people for meeting in person. So we have the two summits a year. We're also having an event which is called the PTG, which is really for the developers and some of the operators will be coming this fall as well where we're having it in Denver, but the summits are the big shows twice a year, but the OpenStack days are really important. Those are annual, typically one to two day events, in 15 plus countries around the world. One in particular that is going to be really exciting this year is in Beijing. You know, we've had that for the last couple of years. Huge event, but of course, others throughout Europe and Asia. Tokyo is always an awesome OpenStack day, and then there are quite a few in Europe as well. So that's another way you can get involved. Not necessarily have to fly around the world, but if you do have to fly around the world, being in Vancouver is not a bad spot, so. >> Yeah, absolutely, and boy we know there's a lot of OpenStack happening in China. >> Yes there is. >> So Mark Collier, thanks again to the foundation for allowing theCUBE to cover this. >> Sure. >> And thanks so much for joining us. >> Mark: Thank you. >> For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back here with lots more of three days wall-to-wall coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (techno music) (shutter clicks)

>> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystem support. (techno music) >> And we're back. I'm Stu Miniman joined by my co-host, John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program two of the keynote speakers this morning, worked on some of the container activity, Kendall Nelson, who's a Upstream Developer Advocate with the OpenStack Foundation. >> Yep. >> And John Griffith, who's a Principal Engineer from NetApp, excuse me, through the SolidFire acquisition. Thank you so much both for joining. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. Thank you. >> John Griffith: Thanks for havin' us. >> Stu Miniman: So you see-- >> Yeah. >> When we have any slip-ups when we're live, we just run through it. >> Run through it. >> Kendall, you ever heard of something like that happening? >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. That might've happened this morning a little bit. (laughs) >> So, you know, let's start with the keynote this morning. I tell ya, we're pretty impressed with the demos. Sometimes the demo gods don't always live up to expectations. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> But maybe share with our audience just a little bit about kind of the goals, what you were looking to accomplish. >> Yeah. Sure. So basically what we set out to do was once the ironic nodes were spun up, we wanted to set up a standalone cinder service and use Docker Compose to do that so that we could do an example of creating a volume and then attaching it to a local instance and kind of showing the multiple backend capabilities of Cinder, so... >> Yeah, so the idea was to show how easy it is to deploy Cinder. Right? So and then plug that into that Kubernetes deployment using a flex volume plugin and-- >> Stu Miniman: Yeah. >> Voila. >> It was funny. I saw some comments on Twitter that were like, "Well, maybe we're showing Management that it's not, you know, a wizard that you just click, click, click-- >> John Griffith: Right. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> "And everything's done." There is some complexity here. You do want to have some people that know what they're doing 'cause things can break. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> I love that the container stuff was called ironic. The bare metal was ironic because-- >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> Right. When you think OpenStack at first, it was like, "Oh. This is virtualized infrastructure." And therefore when containers first came out, it was like, "Wait. It's shifting. It's going away from virtualization." John, you've been on Cinder. You helped start Cinder. >> Right. >> So maybe you could give us a little bit about historical view as to where that came from and where it's goin'. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's kind of interesting, 'cause it... You're absolutely right. There was a point where, in the beginning, where virtualization was everything. Right? Ironic actually, I think it really started more of a means to an end to figure out a better way to deploy OpenStack. And then what happened was, as people started to realize, "Oh, hey. Wait." You know, "This whole bare metal thing and running these cloud services on bare metal and bare metal clouds, this is a really cool thing. There's a lot of merit here." So then it kind of grew and took on its own thing after that. So it's pretty cool. There's a lot of options, a lot of choices, a lot of different ways to run a cloud now, so... >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> You want to comment on that Kendall, or... >> Oh, no. Just there are definitely tons of ways you can run a cloud and open infrastructure is really interesting and growing. >> That has been one thing that we've noticed here at the show. So my first summit, so it was really interesting to me as an outsider, right, trying to perceive the shape of OpenStack. Right? Here the message has actually been very clear. We're no longer having to have a one winner... You know, one-size-fits-all kind of cloud world. Like we had that fight a couple of years ago. It's clear there's going to be multiple clouds, multiple places, multiple form factors, and it was very nice people... An acknowledgement of the ecosystem, that there's a whole open source ecosystem of containers and of other open source projects that have grown up all around OpenStack, so... But I want to talk a little bit about the... And the fact that containers and Kubernetes and that app layer is actually... Doesn't concern itself with the infrastructure so much so actually is a great fit for sitting on top of or... And adjacent to OpenStack. Can you all talk a little bit about the perception here that you see with the end users and cloud builders that are here at the show and how are they starting to use containers. Do they understand the way these two things fit together? >> Yeah. I think that we had a lot of talks submitted that were focused on containers, and I was just standing outside the room trying to get into a Women of OpenStack event, and the number of people that came pouring out that were interested in the container stack was amazing. And I definitely think people are getting more into that and using it with OpenStack is a growing direction in the community. There are couple new projects that are growing that are containers-focused, like... One just came into the projects, OpenStack Helm. And that's a AT&T effort to use... I think it's Kubernetes with OpenStack. So yeah, tons. >> So yeah, it's interesting. I think the last couple of years there's been a huge uptick in the interest of containers, and not just in containers of course, but actually bringing those together with OpenStack and actually running containers on OpenStack as the infrastructure. 'Cause to your point, what everybody wants to see, basically, is commoditized, automated and generic infrastructure. Right? And OpenStack does a really good job of that. And as people start to kind of realize that OpenStack isn't as hard and scary as it used to be... You know, 'cause for a few years there it was pretty difficult and scary. It's gotten a lot better. So deployment, maintaining, stuff like that, it's not so bad, so it's actually a really good solution to build containers on. >> Well, in fact, I mean, OpenStack has that history, right? So you've been solving a lot of problems. Right now the container world, both on the docker side and Kubernetes as well, you're dealing with storage drivers-- >> John Griffith: Yeah. >> Networking overlays-- >> Right. >> Multi-tenancy security, all those things that previous generations of technology have had to solve. And in fact, I mean, you know, right now, I'd say storage and storage interfaces actually are one of the interesting challenges that docker and Kubernetes and all that level of containers and container orchestration and spacing... I mean, it seems like... Has OpenStack already solved, in some way, it's already solved some of these problems with things like Cinder? >> Abso... Yeah. >> John Troyer: And possibly is there an application to containers directly? >> Absolutely. I mean, I think the thing about all of this... And there's a number of us from the OpenStack community on the Cinder side as well as the networking side, too-- >> Yeah. >> Because that's another one of those problem spaces. That are actually taking active roles and participating in the Kubernetes communities and the docker communities to try and kind of help with solving the problems over on that side, right? And moving forward. The fact is is storage is, it's kind of boring, but it's hard. Everybody thinks-- >> John Troyer: It's not boring. >> Yeah. >> It's really awesomely hard. Yeah. >> Everybody thinks it's, "Oh, I'll just do my own." It's actually a hard thing to get right, and you learn a lot over the last seven years of OpenStack. >> Yeah. >> We've learned a lot in production, and I think there's a lot to be learned from what we've done and how things could be going forward with other projects and new technologies to kind of learn from those lessons and make 'em better, so... >> Yeah. >> In terms of multicloud, hybrid cloud world that we're seeing, right? What do you see as the role of OpenStack in that kind of a multicloud deployments now? >> OpenStack can be used in a lot of different ways. It can be on top of containers or in containers. You can orchestrate containers with OpenStack. That's like the... Depending on the use case, you can plug and play a lot of different parts of it. On all the projects, we're trying to move to standalone sort of services, so that you can use them more easily with other technologies. >> Well, and part of your demo this morning, you were pulling out of a containerized repo somehow. So is that kind of a path forward for the mainline OpenStack core? >> So personally, I think it would be a pretty cool way to go forward, right? It would make things a lot easier, a lot simpler. And kind of to your point about hybrid cloud, the thing that's interesting is people have been talking about hybrid cloud for a long time. What's most interesting these days though is containers and things like Kubernetes and stuff, they're actually making hybrid cloud something that's really feasible and possible, right? Because now, if I'm running on a cloud provider, whether it's OpenStack, Amazon, Google, DigitalOcean, it doesn't matter anymore, right? Because all of that stuff in my app is encapsulated in the container. So hybrid cloud might actually become a reality, right? The one thing that's missing still (John Troyer laughs) is data, right? (Kendall Nelson laughs) Data gravity and that whole thing. So if we can figure that out, we've actually got somethin', I think. >> Interesting comment. You know, hybrid cloud a reality. I mean, we know the public cloud here, it's real. >> Yeah. >> With the Kubernetes piece, doesn't that kind of pull together some... Really enable some of that hybrid strategy for OpenStack, which I felt like two or three years ago it was like, "No, no, no. Don't do public cloud. >> John Griffith: Yeah. >> "It's expensive and (laughter) hard or something. "And yeah, infrastructure's easy and free, right?" (laughter) Wait, no. I think I missed that somewhere. (laughter) But yeah, it feels like you're right at the space that enables some of those hybrid and multicloud capabilities. >> Well, and the thing that's interesting is if you look at things like Swarm and Kubernetes and stuff like that, right? One of the first things that they all build are cloud providers, whether OpenStack, AWS, they're all in there, right? So for Swarm, it's pretty awesome. I did a demo about a year ago of using Amazon and using OpenStack, right? And running the exact same workloads the exact same way with the exact same tools, all from Docker machine and Swarm. It was fantastic, and now you can do that with Kubernetes. I mean, now that's just... There's nothing impressive. It's just normal, right? (Kendall Nelson laughs) That's what you do. (laughs) >> I love the demos this morning because they actually were, they were CLI. They were command-line driven, right? >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> I felt at some conferences, you see kind of wizards and GUIs and things like that, but here they-- >> Yeah. >> They blew up the terminal and you were typing. It looked like you were actually typing. >> Kendall Nelson: Oh, yeah. (laughter) >> John Griffith: She was. >> And I actually like the other demo that went on this morning too, where they... The interop demo, right? >> Mm-hmm. >> John Troyer: They spun up 15 different OpenStack clouds-- >> Yeah. >> From different providers on the fly, right there, and then hooked up a CockroachDB, a huge cluster with all of them, right? >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> Can you maybe talk... I just described it, but can you maybe talk a little bit about... That seemed actually super cool and surprising that that would happen that... You could script all that that it could real-time on stage. >> Yeah. I don't know if you, like, noticed, but after our little flub-up (laughs) some of the people during the interop challenge, they would raise their hand like, "Oh, yeah. I'm ready." And then there were some people that didn't raise their hands. Like, I'm sure things went wrong (John Troyer laughs) and with other people, too. So it was kind of interesting to see that it's really happening. There are people succeeding and not quite gettin' there and it definitely is all on the fly, for sure. >> Well, we talked yesterday to CTO Red Hat, and he was talking same thing. No, it's simpler, but you're still making a complicated distributed computing system. >> Kendall Nelson: Oh, definitely. >> Right? There are a lot of... This is not a... There are a lot of moving parts here. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, it's funny, 'cause I've been around for a while, right? So I remember what it was like to actually build these things on your own. (laughs) Right? And this is way better, (laughter) so-- >> So it gets your seal of approval? We have reached a point of-- >> Yeah. >> Of usability and maintainability? >> Yeah, and it's just going to keep gettin' better, right? You know, like the interop challenge, the thing that's awesome there is, so they use Ansible, and they talk to 20 different clouds and-- >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> And it works. I mean, it's awesome. It's great. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> So I guess I'm hearing containers didn't kill OpenStack, as a matter of fact, it might enable the next generation-- >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> Of what's going on, so-- >> John Griffith: Yeah. >> How about serverless? When do we get to see that in here? I actually was lookin' real quick. There's a Functions as a Service session that somebody's doing, but any commentary as to where that fits into OpenStack? >> Go ahead. (laughs) >> So I'm kind of mixed on the serverless stuff, especially in a... In a public cloud, I get it, 'cause then I just call it somebody else's server, right? >> Stu Miniman: Yeah. >> In a private context, it's something that I haven't really quite wrapped my head around yet. I think it's going to happen. I mean, there's no doubt about it. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> I just don't know exactly what that looks like for me. I'm more interested right now in figuring out how to do awesome storage in things like Kubernetes and stuff like that, and then once we get past that, then I'll start thinking about serverless. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> 'Cause where I guess I see is... At like an IoT edge use case where I'm leveraging a container architecture that's serverless driven, that's where-- >> Yeah. >> It kind of fits, and sometimes that seems to be an extension of the public cloud, rather than... To the edge of the public cloud rather than the data center driven-- >> John Griffith: Yeah. >> But yeah. >> Well, that's kind of interesting, actually, because in that context, I do have some experience with some folks that are deploying that model now, and what they're doing is they're doing a mini OpenStack deployment on the edge-- >> Stu Miniman: Yep. >> And using Cinder and Instance and everything else, and then pushing, and as soon as they push that out to the public, they destroy what they had, and they start over, right? And so it's really... It's actually really interesting. And the economics, depending on the scale and everything else, you start adding it up, it's phenomenal, so... >> Well, you two are both plugged into the user community, the hands-on community. What's the mood of the community this year? Like I said, my first year, everybody seems engaged. I've just run in randomly to people that are spinning up their first clouds right now in 2017. So it seems like there's a lot of people here for the first time excited to get started. What do you think the mood of the user community is like? >> I think it's pretty good. I actually... So at the beginning of the week, I helped to run the OpenStack Upstream Institute, which is teaching people how to contribute to the Upstream Community. And there were a fair amount of users there. There are normally a lot of operators and then just a set of devs, and it seemed like there were a lot more operators and users looking that weren't originally interested in contributing Upstream that are now looking into those things. And at our... We had a presence at DockerCon, actually. We had a booth there, and there were a ton of users that were coming and talking to us, and like, "How can I use OpenStack with containers?" So it's, like, getting more interest with every day and growing rapidly, so... >> That's great. >> Yeah. >> All right. Well, want to thank both of you for joining us. I think this went flawless on the interview. (laughter) And yeah, thanks so much. >> Yeah. >> All these things happen... Live is forgiving, as we say on theCUBE and absolutely going forward. So thanks so much for joining us. >> John Griffith: Thank you. John and I will be back with more coverage here from the OpenStack Summit in Boston. You're watching theCUBE. (funky techno music)

>> Announcer: It's The Cube covering OpenStack Summit 2017 brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, an additional ecosystem of support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program the two Keynote emcees for the first two days, Jonathan Bryce who's the executive director and Mark Collier who's the COO of OpenStack Foundation. Both of you, thanks so much for joining us. >> Jonathan: Yeah, thanks for having us back. >> It's great to be on The Cube. >> Thank you for the foundation. Without your guys' support, we couldn't do this. It's our fifth year doing the show. I remember the first year, John Furrier went. They were like, "Hey, OpenStack has arrived. "The Cube's there!" And now, it's part of our regular rotation. I know our community loves it. Community, opensource, big part of the show. I wish we had two hours to tease out all the pieces, but Mark, I got to start with you. You just did a live Q&A with Edward Snowden. Somebody joked, they said the quality and the sound was too good. He was sitting in the backroom somewhere. Can you just tell us, how did this come about and how do you make that work? >> Yeah. I mean, pinch me. Is this real life? I keep asking myself 'cause it seems kind of surreal. Just briefly, I got a lot of people that ask, "How did we get connected with him?" It's kind of a funny story, but basically, several years ago when the whole story came out about somebody from the government, from NSA had leaked these documents, but nobody knew who it was. I was on vacation, it was in the summer. I forget what year, I was on vacation with family. We were in the lobby of this hotel where we were on vacation and I've been following the story with some interest. All of a sudden, I see on the TV screen in the lobby of the hotel, "Breaking news, we're about to reveal "the name of the leaker." I look up and I'm watching it and it says, "Here it is. It's Edward Snowden." The first thing I did is I pull up my phone. I immediately look and see if edwardsnowden.com was available, so I registered it thinking, "Well, this might come in handy." Some person just became the most famous person in the world, possibly. It was available, so I'm like, I'm furiously typing on my phone trying to register the domain. I register the domain edwardsnowden.com. No idea what I would actually do with it, just thinking, "If it's there, "this name is about to become really famous," so I registered it. Didn't do much with it, I just put some Twitter feeds on there, just thought, "We'll see what comes of this." A little while later as things developed, he ended up in Russia. I was contacted by some of his team that said, "We're putting together a legal defense fund. "It'd be great if we could host it at edwardsnowden.com. "Could we buy the domain from you?" I was like, "You can have it, I'll donate it. "I just grabbed it 'cause I figured "this might come in handy someday, "just was an impulse." They said, "Great, thank you. "Edward thanks you, we're going to really use "this domain for his legal defense fund webpage," and all that stuff. Overtime, I occasionally would ping them and say, "Look, the domain's free. You've got it. "I want you to have it, it's not my name. "I don't have any need, I don't have any right to this. "You guys use it, but it would be great "if he could come on the Summit thing that we do." This was three or four years ago. They were like, "Oh yeah, he would love to do it "to thank you for donating the domain," but each time we talked, it was always like, the schedule didn't lineup. I've been literally asking him for six or seven Summits. This was the first time the schedules lined up. I didn't tell anybody 'cause I thought, this is never going to happen, this is a pipe dream. I don't want to promise anything. It was only just a few weeks ago that we found out the schedule's lined up, it's on. Got connected from there. He's obviously an opensource-person, has a lot of passion behind that. We thought this is pretty interesting for our audience, so it worked out. >> All right, so Jonathan. Let's reset for a second here (Jonathan laughs) and step back. One of the things we'd love to see is the foundation is self-aware. There's always that balance when you get into, you don't want to read the press or things like that because they don't understand what we're doing or where we're going or things like that. In your opening Keynote and throughout the show, we called it, it's a little bit of a reset. If you think about where people thought OpenStack was and where it was going three years ago, it was like, the Amazon this or the cheaper VMware or how that is, where it is, where it's going, who's leading, who's involved, winning-and-losing type stuff, you guys did a good job of laying that out, so congrats on that. Take us in a little bit, and what message did you guys want to get out this week? >> Yeah, I think that you're right, we are very self-aware. I think that some of that comes from our role. At the foundation, we are not selling a product. We don't have anything to sell off the back of a truck, so to speak. What we actually really care about is moving the state of the community and the technology we produce forward. The thing that's great about that is we can look at the portfolio of technologies that we have. We can look at the things that are in the market and if we see a shift there, it's not like we have a $500 million dollar line of business that, "Uh-oh, we need to keep milking this cash cow "and turn a blind eye to these changes over here." I think over the last couple of years, I talked about a shift in what private clouds can do now and how they're built and operated. We seen that and we've sort of been teasing that out a little bit at previous Summits whether it's demos with Kubernetes or different integrations with Cloud Foundry and other things like that. What we decided this time is coming out of last year, there was a lot of news. What we saw really picking up is there would be these rumors or misperceptions that somebody would put out there, you know? Not based on fact, not based on reality. We were like, "You know what? "We can't just try to subtly hint at what's going on. "Let's just go out there and actually address "the state of things," and I think what you mentioned is actually what's at the root of a lot of these misconceptions as people look at opensource now. Because so much technology gets developed that way, they look at it and they expect it to be like the old world of IT where you need to have Microsoft versus Linux, and you need to have Oracle versus MySQL. Actually, what we see is just the cloud overall is growing so quickly. Public cloud, everybody believes that's growing. What we see is, private clouds are growing. We see that servers, there are more servers this year than there were last year. There are more virtual machines this year than there were last year. Far more containers this year than last year. All of these technologies are growing, so it's not a zero-sum game where in order for OpenStack to succeed, AWS has to lose. I think that we feel that way and we see that, but we realize that this is... We need to just go at it directly. >> Mark, I've heard good feedback from people when, you know, core, where it is, how it's matured. People like the component piece. They'd be able to take some digital pieces which, my understanding, they could do that before, it's becoming highlighted a bit. We talked about some of the opensource days and Cloud Foundry, Kubernetes. The piece where we've heard some people poking holes in is what big tent we discussed last year. Big tent, we poked a hole, is it dead? How do we reposition that? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I think first of all, one of the things that this just this strange stroke of luck that maybe turned out to be bad luck was, one of the few times when a handful of developers went off and organized something, gave it a random name and the name really stuck. It actually was almost too good of a name. You heard Big Tent and everyone's just rolling off the tongue all the time, "Big Tent, Big Tent, Big Tent," so everyone had to have an opinion about it and was like, "This is a huge change." It really wasn't meant to be a huge change. It wasn't even meant to be broadcast that widely to everyone who's just observing OpenStack. That's just kind of what happens, people talk about it. I do think that we are entering a point now when we're thinking about composable, open infrastructure, yes, you need to have different components. You need to be able to pick them, but we're also getting more serious about what things need to exist in OpenStack. I talked about that a little bit this morning. Not every single thing that we've launched needs to continue to be an OpenStack project. Whether you call it the Big Tent or not, or if you give it different names, the reality is we need to adopt and integrate technologies from other communities. Any opensource community out there is potentially developing something really powerful. >> Jonathan: Did you mention the FCB thing this morning in your, I can't remember if-- >> Yeah I mentioned it briefly. A perfect example of this is a lot of OpenStack services have said, "You know, we need to distributed lock management function "in order to evolve as a service. "Where should we go build it? "How're we going to write it?" Then, this culture of, "Well, hold on. "There are a lot of them out there, they're proven. "What about Etcd?" So the forum, which is the first time we've really had a dedicated space at the Summit for both developers and operators to be in the same room, not just next door to each other. They had a discussion yesterday on this and they said, "Yes, we're going to go forward with Etcd." That's an opensource project, very proven, it solves this particular function, it's not developed inside of OpenStack, but who cares? It's opensource. We can work, we can be friends with anybody who builds great opensource software. Let's not reinvent the wheels. I think that does represent a bit of a shift in the philosophy and culture at OpenStack of not trying to just build every single thing from scratch 'cause that's not the best thing for our users or the market. >> I think the ecosystem message and the landscape message came through really clearly. This is my first OpenStack Summit. I was very curious about what is the shape of OpenStack? Where does it fit in? Talking about the upper layers and Kubernetes and the app layers, and now talking about the overall landscape, right. Why rewrite that something like Etcd write. The whole ecosystem has grown up around OpenStack. During the 70's, the whole foundation has been working on it, all the members. One thing that impressed me, we are post-hype cycle. There are real customers here. There are people building their first clouds right now on OpenStack. Could you talk a little bit about just the community in general, the composition of it and the actual real use cases that we're seeing that happen. >> We had some new companies that spoke here for the first time, GE was one. The U.S. Army Cyber School is another one. We had some companies that came back as well. I think that you hit on a key point which is the maturity of the software. A company like GE, especially in their healthcare division, this is a highly regulated company. It's probably the most regulated company out there when you consider the things they do with aviation, nuclear power, healthcare, finance and all these things. They don't take those decisions lightly at all. I think that is an indicator of that maturity. What we see in the makeup of the community is a broader set of industries than ever before. We had strong representation among IT companies early on and continued with that, but now we have industrial companies. We have manufacturing companies like Volkswagen, BMW, you know, a number of car manufacturers, and defense companies. I think that kind of plays into that. I think the other thing that we've seen... When we talk about the OpenStack community and the platform overall, we think of it as an ecosystem that has three main parts. There's the users, which, that's why we exist. We create software for it to be used. There are the developers who are doing that, and then there's the ecosystem of companies who create commercial products and services. I think that's actually just as important. Right now, at the phase that we're at is how that is also reaching maturity. In the earlier days of OpenStack, I think that we had a lot of startups and we had a lot of activity, but the market didn't know how to consume it. It didn't understand what it was. I think that actually scared off some companies and it made a little bit of it more confusing, but as you get a few years into that, some of those companies succeed. Some of them don't succeed, but what you arrive at is a clear understanding of what the market wants, how the products should shape up. You get companies that stop trying to build it all themselves, kind of along with the not-invented-here, and they partner with people who know how to do opensource or they come up with new delivery models. I think that, actually, just as important is the maturing that we've seen in the commercial ecosystem because that leads to sustainable business models for these companies like Red Hat and Rackspace and others that then drive the development, but it also leads to clear adoption choices for users. >> One of the things that I think came out of last year at the Austin Summit was just where OpenStack fits in in this hybrid world. I think about GE, Rackspace, Red Hat, all of those companies clearly span both sides of it. Back to that winning-and-losing discussion we had at the beginning, it was always public cloud versus the private and the infrastructure piece. We know it's a multi-cloud, hybrid cloud world. How do you see that fitting in the conversations? The other piece on that, I see a large number, it was a 74% of deployment according to your latest survey, are not U.S. which is the inverse of we see such. North America's where we have a lot of public cloud adoption so does that fit in? What dynamics may be mixed up with you, Mark? >> A couple things, I would say that what we're finding is a few years ago, it was like, are we going to do cloud? Okay, now it's yes. Then it was, which app it's going to be? It's going to be as many as we can get. Then it was, are we going to do public or private? Well, we picked one. Now it's, okay, yes to everything. It's going to be cloud, we're going to put as many apps as we can. We're going to do public and private, so what happens next? Now, it's a question of where. Where do you place each workload? Some of them belong in the public cloud, some of them don't. Economics plays a big factor, performance, compliance, all the things that he said. The three C's, capabilities. I think that's the next discussion point that's happening inside of these boardrooms with CTOs and IT leaders at the major companies. How do we get a sophisticated strategy for where to place the workload? In terms of the geographic dynamic, I think one of the things Jonathan hit on yesterday is that it's just the nature of opensource that you never know where it's going to go. You just have no clue. Really, any new technology development, the market's going to go somewhere you could've never predicted like, the crystal ball is dead. It's really roadmaps or almost obsolete. It's like, you need to create a structure for how you respond and adopt to change 'cause you know it's coming. What's happened with OpenStack 'cause it's been used in all these new and different ways, and part of that's geographic. It's used to power cell phone networks in all these different countries. It's being used to fit within regulatory requirements in certain countries in data locality, both for performance and other reasons. I think that's why you see it, it's a big world out there. More than 74% of the world doesn't live in the United States, so I think we're closer to the real percentage out there. >> I want to jump in with one thing that you said that I might disagree with slightly. >> Mark: Okay, let's have a debate. On the right... >> Well, you said that these are the conversations that CTOs and CIOs are having is the strategy about how to do it. I think it's a conversation they should be having... >> Mark: Okay, fair point. >> But I think that what we see is, we see a lot of companies-- >> After they hear this, maybe they'll start talking about the right thing. >> I think that we see that, but we're kind of on the front edge of cloud adoption >> That's a good point. >> in the OpenStack community. >> Mark: I concede your point, sir. >> And I think that one of the issues that we see still is that people are thinking about it too simplistically, almost. As Larry Ellison famously said, "The IT industry is the most "fashion-driven industry out there." I think that right now, there are a lot of companies that they still think that there's some shiny object that's going to fix it all for them. Right now, it might be public cloud or containers. They've heard this word and they think that's... Never happened. Never happened in the history of IT ever before. There has never been at technology that came along and fixed the stuff before it. They all get edited. So, yes. We were talking with a CEO just this week, and it was real interesting to hear his perspective because he said that he actually thinks that the pendulum is going to shift back towards private cloud for people who run any significant amount of software. He goes, "I know that is not a popular viewpoint right now, "and if I said that to most other "technology C-level execs, "they would probably disagree with me and go, "No, cloud first, containers," but I think that just the fundamentals behind it, over the next few years, I don't know if it will shift all the way back. It may, who knows? But that's definitely something that I think is going to change from where the current fab might be. >> We'll have to have you back later to talk about how public is now moving to edge. Edge, of course, lives. >> Yeah. Oh, yes. >> Edge is the new data center, is what they have. I do have one final question before we let you go. That whole new shiny stuff? The last couple years, I'd been hearing, everybody's like, "Containers are going to subsume and take over. "DockerCon will be the new thing. "Oh wait, Kubernetes is just "going to dominate and take it over," and we have CubeCon and the CNCF. There's lots of Linux Foundation shows that do partnerships with what you do in Cloud Foundry Summit and on all these other pieces. What do you see as the future for the OpenStack Summit? Does it get pulled? This is being pulled into pieces, but for the show itself, for the foundation, and how it fits with that whole broad ecosystem of opensource. >> Well, the OpenStack Summit has always had some specific purposes. Again, this gets back to the fact that we are an opensource community and a foundation built to support that opensource community. The primary purposes of the OpenStack Summit are basically to strengthen those three pillars that I talked about earlier, especially on the software angle. Mark mentioned that this time around, we are doing what we call the forum. We used to have the Design Summit here, and we actually split that into two parts: one that's very technical and it's really gets down into implementation details. That's split out into a separate event. It happened in February, it's going to happen in September. What we did here is we set up time where developers and operators can get together and talk about strategic issues. Instead of talking about, "How do we fix this issue on line X of file Y?" they're talking about, "What should we use for distributed storage "and lock management? "Should we do Etcd? Should we do Zoo?" They're having more strategic conversation. That is a very critical piece for our community and for the people who run on it. We do a lot of education here. I think that what we've seen is that the OpenStack Summit is becoming more focused around users and the strategic needs of them as we build out the technology versus what it used to be. It originally started as a hacking event for 75 software developers. That's where I think it's going. Just to address the other point, all of the other opensource projects, a lot of them are here and we go to their events because, again, like we've been saying, it's not a zero-sum game. What we care about is that there are open alternatives and that they work well together. One of the things that I think we've seen and we've seen it proven over and over again with OpenStack is that getting communities together in person, those high-bandwidth interactions are actually really critical to getting work done and making things happen. I think they're all valuable and we're going to continue to participate in all of them. >> Yeah, well, Jonathan Bryce, Mark Collier. Really appreciate you joining us. I'm sure we'll see you at many of those other shows that The Cube will be covering throughout the years. Stay tuned with us, we've got lots more covered here at OpenStack Summit 2017 in Boston. Thanks for watching The Cube. (minimal electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Santa Clara, California, it's The Cube. Covering open networking summit 2017. Brought to you by the Linux foundation. >> Welcome back. We are live in Santa Clara at the open networking summit 2017. Been coming here for a couple years, it's a lot of open source going on in storage, for a long time, a lot of open source going on in compute for a long time, and you know, networking was kind of the last one, but we had Martin Casado on on earlier today. He says it's 10 years since he started Nicira. And now, it's a billion dollar revenue run raid inside vmware, so I think the software defined networking is pretty real. We're excited for this next segment, Scott Raynovich, been cohosting all day, good to see you again, Scott. But we're kind of shifting, we're going to add to open networking, we're going to add to open, not compute, but OpenStack, I get them all mixed up, we were just-- >> It's all infrastructure, it's all in the family. >> All right, so our next guest here, representing the OpenStack foundation, is Ildiko Vancsa, get that right? She is the ecosystem technical lead for OpenStack, welcome. And Lisa-Marie Namphy, she's now officially the OpenStack ambassador, which if you follow her on Twitter, you would have known that a long time ago. >> For the U.S. There's several others globally, but for the U.S., yeah. >> So first off, welcome. >> Thank you. >> And what is the OpenStack team doing here at open networking summit? >> So OpenStack itself is a multipurpose generated cloud platform, so we are not just looking into enterprise, IT use cases, but also trying to address the telecom and NFV space. And this is the conference where we are finding many of our ecosystem member companies represented, and we are also learning what's new in the networking space, what are the challenges of tomorrow and how we can start to address them today. >> Right, 'cause the telco is a very active space for OpenStack as well, correct, there's been a good market segment for you. >> Yes, it is an emerging area. I would say we have more and more telecommunications company around and they are also more and more involved in open source. Because I think it's kind of clear that they are also using open source for a while now, but using open source and participating in open source, those are two different things. So this kind of mindset change and transition towards participating In these communities and going out to the public field and do software development there and collaborate with each other and the enterprise IT segment as well, this is what is happening today and it is really great to see it. >> Host: Great, great. >> And you've seen more and more telco's participating in the OpenStack summits, there was an NFV day, I think, even going all the way back to the Atlanta summit. And certainly, in Barcelona, Ildiko was actually doing one of the main stage key notes, which was very focused on telco. And some of the main sponsors of this upcoming summit are telco's. So there's definitely a nice energy between telco and OpenStack. >> Now, why do you think the telco is just the one that's kind of getting ahead of the curve in terms of the adoption? >> Scalable low class clouds. (all laugh) >> Right, and we had John Donovan from AT&T said today that they're either rapidly approaching or going to hit, very soon, more than 50% of software defined networking within the AT&T network. So if there's any questions as to whether it's real or still in POC's, I think that pretty much says it's in production and running. >> I'm doing a lot more of that, so I also run the OpenStack user group for the San Francisco bay area and have been for the last three years, and if we're not talking about Kupernetes, or Docker and OpenStack, we're talking about networking. And tonight, actually, we're going to, the open contrail team is talking about some of the stuff they're doing with open contrail and containers and sort of just to piggyback off of this conference. And next week, as well, we're talking about the network functionality in Kupernetes at OpenStack, if you want to run in down to the OpenStack cloud. So it's a huge focus and the user group can't get enough of it. >> and your guys' show is coming up very, very soon. >> The OpenStack summit? >> Yes. >> Oh, absolutely, May 8th through 11th in Boston, Massachusetts. >> Host: Like right around the corner. >> Yeah. >> The incredible moving show, right? It keeps going and going and going. >> Yeah, yeah, there's going to be 6,000 plus people there. There was just some recent press releases about some of the keynotes that are happening there. There's a huge focus on, you know, I keep calling this the year of the user, the year of OpenStack adoption. And we're really, throughout the meetups, we're really doing a lot to try to showcase those use cases. So Google will be one that's onstage talking about some really cool stuff they're doing with OpenStack, some machine learning, just really intelligent stuff they're working on, and that's going to be a great keynote that we're looking forward to. Harvard will be up on there, you know, not just big name foundation members, but a lot of use cases that you'll see presented. >> So why do you think this is the year, what's kind of the breakthrough that it is the year of the user, would you say? >> Well, I think that just the reliability of OpenStack. I think enterprises are getting more comfortable. There are very large clouds running on OpenStack, more in Asia and in Europe and Ildiko can probably talk about it, particularly some of the telco related ones. But you know, the adoption is there and you see more stability around there, more integration with other, I don't know what to call it, emerging technologies like containers, like AI, like IOT. So there's a big push there, but I think enterprises have just, they have adopted it. And there's more expertise out there. We've focused a lot on the administrators. There's the COA, the certified administrator of, you know, OpenStack administrator exam you can take. So the operators have come a long way and they're really helping the customers out there get OpenStack clouds up and running. So I just think, you know, it's seven years now, into it, right, so we got to turn the corner. >> So there have been some growing pains with OpenStack, so what can you tell us about the metrics today versus, say, three or four years ago in terms of total installations, maybe breakdown of telecom versus enterprise, what kind of metrics do you have you there? >> I'll let you take that one. >> We are running, continuously running a user survey and we are seeing growing numbers in the telecom area. I'm not prepared with the numbers from the top of my head, but we are definitely seeing more and more adoption in the telecom space like how you mentioned AT&T, they are one of the largest telecom operators onboard in the community, and they are also very active, showing a pretty great example of how to adopt the software and how to participate in the community to make the software more and more NFV ready and ready for the telecom use cases. We also have, as Lisa-Marie just mentioned, the China area and Asia are coming up as well, like we have China Mobile and China Telecom onboard as well. Or Huawei, so we have telecom operators and telecom vendors as well, around the community. And we are also collaborating with other communities, so like who you see around OPNFV, OpenDaylight, and so forth. We are collaborating with them to see how we can integrate OpenStack into a larger environment as part of the full NFV stack. If you look into the ETSI NFV architectural framework, OpenStack is on the infrastructure layer. The NFV infrastructure and virtual infrastructure manager components are covered with OpenStack services mostly. So you also need to look into, then, how you can run on top of the hardware that the telecom industry is expecting in a data center and how to onboard the virtual network functions on top of that, how to put D management and orchestration components on top of OpenStack, and how the integration works out. So we are collaborating with these communities and what is really exciting about the Upcoming summit is that we are transforming the event a little bit. So this time, it will not be purely OpenStack focused, but it will be more like an open infrastructure, even. We are running open source days, so we will have representation from the communities I mentioned and we will also have Kubernetes onboard, for example, to show how we are collaborating with the representatives of the container technologies. We will also have Cloud Foundry and a few more communities around, so it will be a pretty interesting event and we are just trying to show the big picture that how OpenStack and all these other components of this large ecosystem are operating together. And that is going to be a super cool part of the summit, so the summit is May 8th through 11th and on May 9th, the CNCF, the Linux foundation, actually, behind this, the CNCF day, they're calling it Kupernetes day. And the whole day will be dedicated, there will be a whole track dedicated to Kupernetes, basically. And so they did another call for papers and it's like a little mini conference inside the conference. So that's kind of what I was saying about the adoption of other technologies. I'm sure the OpenStack foundation is putting those numbers together that you asked about and probably Jonathan or Bryce will stand onstage on the first day and talk about them. But what I think is more interesting and what I would encourage people to go, there's a Superuser magazine. Superuser does a great job telling the stories of what's happening out there, and some of these use cases, and who's adopting this technology and what they're doing with it. And those stories are more interesting than just, you know, the numbers. Because you can do anything with numbers and statistics, but these actual user stories are really cool so I encourage readers to go out to Superuser magazine and check that out. >> It's like, Lego uses it. >> There you go. >> I had to check real fast. >> Lot of information on there. They do a good job of that. >> Lego alligators. >> So you talked about this day with the Linux foundation, is there increasing amounts of cooperation between OpenStack and Linux foundation? Given all the projects that seem to be blossoming. >> Yeah, I don't even know that it needed to increase, there's always been nice energy between the two. There is, you know, Eileen Evans, who we know very well, was on the board of both, the first woman on both boards. She was my colleague for many years at Hewlett-Packard. She's still on the Linux foundation board and there's been a lot of synergy between those foundations. They've always worked closely together, especially things like the Cloud Foundry foundation that came out of the Linux foundation has always worked very closely with OpenStack, the OpenStack foundation, and the board members, and it's all one big happy family. We're all open source, yeah. >> And you talked about the enterprises being, you know, they've been using open source for a long time, Linux has been around forever. They're really more adopting kind of an open source ethos in terms of their own contributions back and participating back in. So you see just increased adoption, really, of using the open source vehicle as a way to do better innovation, better product development, and to get involved, get back to their engineers to get involved in something beyond just their day job. >> It is definitely a tendency that is happening, so it's not just AT&T, like, I can mention, for example, NTT DoCoMo, who now has engineers working on OpenStack code. They are a large operator in Japan. And it is really not something, I think, that a few years back, they would've imagined that they will just participate in an open source community. I've been involved with OPNFV for, I think, two years now, or two and a half. I'm an OPNFV ambassador as well, I'm trying to focus on the cross-community collaboration. And OPNFV is an environment where you can find many telecom operators and vendors. And it was a really interesting journey to see them, how they get to know open source more and more and how they learned how this is working and how working in public is like and what the benefits are. And I remember when a few people from, for example, DoCoMo came to OPNFV and they were, like, a little bit more shy, just exploring what's happening. And then like a half year later when they started to do OpenStack contributions, they had code batches merged into OpenStack, they added new functionalities, they kind of became advocates of open source. And they were like telling everywhere that open source is the way to go and this is what everyone should be doing and why it is so great to collaborate with other operators out in the public so you can address the common pain points together, rather than everyone is working on it behind closed doors and trying to invent the same wheel at the same time, separately. >> Right. >> So that was a really, really Interesting journey. And I think more and more companies are following this example. And not just coming and giving feedback, but also more and more participating and doing coding documentation work in the community. >> And I think if I can understand, what I think, also, the question you might have been asking, there wasn't a ton of python developers in the beginning and everybody's like how do we get these OpenStack developers in the company, you know, it was this huge shortage. And Linux was the little hanging fruit, it's like well, why do we just hire some Linux developers and then teach them python, and that's how a lot of OpenStack knowledge came into companies. So that was the trend. And I think enough companies, enough enterprises do see the value of something like OpenStack or Linux or Kupernetes or whatever the project has, Docker, to actually dedicate enough full time employees to be doing just that for as long as it makes sense and then maybe it's another technology. But we saw that for years, right, with OpenStack, huge companies. And there still are. Not always the same companies, depending on what a company needs and where they are, they absolutely find value in contributing back to this community. >> Okay, and you said you got a meetup tonight? >> I do, yeah. >> Give a plug for the meetup. >> Juniper, it's open contrail talking about open contrailing and containers. And it's at Juniper here in Sunnyville, so if you go to meetup.com/openstack, that's our user group. We're the first ones, we got that one. So meetup.com/openstack is the Silicon Valley, San Francisco bay area user group. And then next week, we're talking about networking and Kupernetes. >> All right, it's always good to be above the fold, that's for sure. All right, Ildiko, Lisa-Marie, great to see you again and thanks for stopping by, and we'll see you in Boston, if not before. >> Absolutely, we'll both be quite busy, we have four, both four presentations each, it's going to be a nutty week. So I'm looking forward to seeing you guys in Boston, always a pleasure, thanks for inviting us. >> Absolutely, all right, thanks for stopping by. With Scott Raynovich, I'm Jeff Frick, you're watching The Cube from open networking summit 2017. We'll be back after this short break, thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to AWS Startup Showcase, I'm John Furrier, your host. This is the Hero panel, the AWS Heroes. These are folks that have a lot of experience in Open Source, having fun building great projects and commercializing the value and best practices of Open Source innovation. We've got some great guests here. Liz Rice, Chief Open Source Officer, Isovalent. CUBE alumni, great to see you. Brian LeRoux, who is the Co-founder and CTO of begin.com. Erica Windisch who's an Architect for Developer Experience. AWS Hero, also CUBE alumni. Casey Lee, CTO Gaggle. Doing some great stuff in ed tech. Great collection of experts and experienced folks doing some fun stuff, welcome to this conversation this CUBE panel. >> Hi. >> Thanks for having us. >> Hello. >> Let's go down the line. >> I don't normally do this, but since we're remote and we have such great guests, go down the line and talk about why Open Source is important to you guys. What projects are you currently working on? And what's the coolest thing going on there? Liz we'll start with you. >> Okay, so I am very involved in the world of Cloud Native. I'm the chair of the technical oversight committee for the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. So that means I get to see a lot of what's going on across a very broad range of Cloud Native projects. More specifically, Isovalent. I focus on Cilium, which is it's based on a technology called EBPF. That is to me, probably the most exciting technology right now. And then finally, I'm also involved in an organization called OpenUK, which is really pushing for more use of open technologies here in the United Kingdom. So spread around lots of different projects. And I'm in a really fortunate position, I think, to see what's happening with lots of projects and also the commercialization of lots of projects. >> Awesome, Brian what project are you working on? >> Working project these days called Architect. It's a Open Source project built on top of AWSM. It adds a lot of sugar and terseness to the SM experience and just makes it a lot easier to work with and get started. AWS can be a little bit intimidating to people at times. And the Open Source community is stepping up to make some of that bond ramp a little bit easier. And I'm also an Apache member. And so I keep a hairy eyeball on what's going on in that reality all the time. And I've been doing this open-source thing for quite a while, and yeah, I love it. It's a great thing. It's real science. We get to verify each other's work and we get to expand and build on human knowledge. So that's a huge honor to just even be able to do that and I feel stoked to be here so thanks for having me. >> Awesome, yeah, and totally great. Erica, what's your current situation going on here? What's happening? >> Sure, so I am currently working on developer experience of a number of Open Source STKS and CLI components from my current employer. And previously, recently I left New Relic where I was working on integrating with OpenTelemetry, as well as a number of other things. Before that I was a maintainer of Docker and of OpenStack. So I've been in this game for a while as well. And I tend to just put my fingers in a lot of little pies anywhere from DVD players 20 years ago to a lot of this open telemetry and monitoring and various STKs and developer tools is where like Docker and OpenStack and the STKs that I work on now, all very much focusing on developer as the user. >> Yeah, you're always on the wave, Erica great stuff. Casey, what's going on? Do you got some great ed techs happening? What's happening with you? >> Yeah, sure. The primary Open Source project that I'm contributing to right now is ACT. This is a tool I created a couple of years back when GitHub Actions first came out, and my motivation there was I'm just impatient. And that whole commit, push, wait time where you're testing out your pipelines is painful. And so I wanted to build a tool that allowed developers to test out their GitHub Actions workflows locally. And so this tool uses Docker containers to emulate, to get up action environment and gives you fast feedback on those workflows that you're building. Lot of innovation happening at GitHub. And so we're just trying to keep up and continue to replicate those new features functionalities in the local runner. And the biggest challenge I've had with this project is just keeping up with the community. We just passed 20,000 stars, and it'd be it's a normal week to get like 10 PRs. So super excited to announce just yesterday, actually I invited four of the most active contributors to help me with maintaining the project. And so this is like a big deal for me, letting the project go and bringing other people in to help lead it. So, yeah, huge shout out to those folks that have been helping with driving that project. So looking forward to what's next for it. >> Great, we'll make sure the SiliconANGLE riders catch that quote there. Great call out. Let's start, Brian, you made me realize when you mentioned Apache and then you've been watching all the stuff going on, it brings up the question of the evolution of Open Source, and the commercialization trends have been very interesting these days. You're seeing CloudScale really impact also with the growth of code. And Liz, if you remember, the Linux Foundation keeps making projections and they keep blowing past them every year on more and more code and more and more entrance coming in, not just individuals, corporations. So you starting to see Netflix donates something, you got Lyft donate some stuff, becomes a project company forms around it. There's a lot of entrepreneurial activity that's creating this new abstraction layers, new platforms, not just tools. So you start to see a new kickup trajectory with Open Source. You guys want to comment on this because this is going to impact how fast the enterprise will see value here. >> I think a really great example of that is a project called Backstage that's just come out of Spotify. And it's going through the incubation process at the CNCF. And that's why it's front of mind for me right now, 'cause I've been working on the due diligence for that. And the reason why I thought it was interesting in relation to your question is it's spun out of Spotify. It's fully Open Source. They have a ton of different enterprises using it as this developer portal, but they're starting to see some startups emerging offering like a hosted managed version of Backstage or offering services around Backstage or offering commercial plugins into Backstage. And I think it's really fascinating to see those ecosystems building up around a project and different ways that people can. I'm a big believer. You cannot sell the Open Source code, but you can sell other things that create value around Open Source projects. So that's really exciting to see. >> Great point. Anyone else want to weigh in and react to that? Because it's the new model. It's not the old way. I mean, I remember when I was in college, we had the Pirate software. Open Source wasn't around. So you had to deal under the table. Now it's free. But I mean the old way was you had to convince the enterprise, like you've got a hard knit, it builds the community and the community manage the quality of the code. And then you had to build the company to make sure they could support it. Now the companies are actually involved in it, right? And then new startups are forming faster. And the proof points are shorter and highly accelerated for that. I mean, it's a whole new- >> It's a Cambrian explosion, and it's great. It's one of those things that it's challenging for the new developers because they come in and they're like, "Whoa, what is all this stuff that I'm supposed to figure out?" And there's no right answer and there's no wrong answer. There's just tons of it. And I think that there's a desire for us to have one sort of well-known trot and happy path, that audience we're a lot better with a more diverse community, with lots of options, with lots of ways to approach these problems. And I think it's just great. A challenge that we have with all these options and all these Cambrian explosion of projects and all these competing ideas, right now, the sustainability, it's a bit of a tricky question to answer. We know that there's a commercialization aspect that helps us fund these projects, but how we compose the open versus the commercial source is still a bit of a tricky question and a tough one for a lot of folks. >> Erica, would you chime in on that for a second. I want to get your angle on that, this experience and all this code, and I'm a new person, I'm an existing person. Do I get like a blue check mark and verify? I mean, these are questions like, well, how do you navigate? >> Yeah, I think this has been something happening for a while. I mean, back in the early OpenStack days, 2010, for instance, Rackspace Open Sourcing, OpenStack and ANSU Labs and so forth, and then trying, having all these companies forming in creating startups around this. I started at a company called Cloudccaling back in late 2010, and we had some competitors such as Piston and so forth where a lot of the ANSUL Labs people went. But then, the real winners, I think from OpenStack ended up being the enterprises that jumped in. We had Red Hat in particular, as well as HP and IBM jumping in and investing in OpenStack, and really proving out a lot of... not that it was the first time, but this is when we started seeing billions of dollars pouring into Open Source projects and Open Source Foundations, such as the OpenStack Foundation, which proceeded a lot of the things that we now see with the Linux Foundation, which was then created a little bit later. And at the same time, I'm also reflecting a little bit what Brian said because there are projects that don't get funded, that don't get the same attention, but they're also getting used quite significantly. Things like Log4j really bringing this to the spotlight in terms of projects that are used everywhere by everything with significant outsized impacts on the industry that are not getting funded, that aren't flashy enough, that aren't exciting enough because it's just logging, but a vulnerability in it brings every everything and everybody down and has possibly billions of dollars of impact to our industry because nobody wanted to fund this project. >> I think that brings up the commercialization point about maybe bringing a venture capital model in saying, "Hey, that boring little logging thing could be a key ingredient for say solving some observability problems so I think let's put some cash." Again then we'd never seen that before. Now you're starting to see that kind of a real smart investment thesis going into Open Source projects. I mean, Promethease, Crafter, these are projects that turned off companies. This is turning up companies. >> A decade ago, there was no money in Dev tools that I think that's been fully debunked now. They used to be a concept that the venture community believed, but there's just too much evidence to the contrary, the companies like Cash Court, Datadog, the list goes on and on. I think the challenge for the Open Source (indistinct) comes back to foundations and working (indistinct) these developers make this code safe and secure. >> Casey, what's your reaction to all of this? You've got, so a project has gained some traction, got some momentum. There's a lot of mission critical. I won't say white spaces, but the opportunities in the big cloud game happening. And there's a lot of, I won't say too many entrepreneurial, but there's a lot of community action happening that's precommercialization that's getting traction. How does this all develop naturally and then vector in quickly when it hits? >> Yeah, I want to go back to the Log4j topic real quick. I think that it's a great example of an area that we need to do better at. And there was a cool article that Rob Pike wrote describing how to quantify the criticality. I think that's sort of quantifying criticality was the article he wrote on how to use metrics, to determine how valuable, how important a piece of Open Source is to the community. And we really need to highlight that more. We need a way to make it more clear how important this software is, how many people depend on it and how many people are contributing to it. And because right now we all do that. Like if I'm going to evaluate an Open Source software, sure, I'll look at how many stars it has and how many contributors it has. But I got to go through and do all that work myself and come up with. It would be really great if we had an agreed upon method for ranking the criticality of software, but then also the risk, hey, that this is used by a ton of people, but nobody's contributing to it anymore. That's a concern. And that would be great to potential users of that to signal whether or not it makes sense. The Open Source Security Foundation, just getting off the ground, they're doing some work in this space, and I'm really excited to see where they go with that looking at ways to stop score critically. >> Well, this brings up a good point while we've got everyone here, let's take a plug and plug a project you think that's not getting the visibility it needs. Let's go through each of you, point out a project that you think people should be looking at and talking about that might get some free visibility here. Anyone want to highlight projects they think should be focused more on, or that needs a little bit of love? >> I think, I mean, particularly if we're talking about these sort of vulnerability issues, there's a ton of work going on, like in the Secure Software Foundation, other foundations, I think there's work going on in Apache somewhere as well around the bill of material, the software bill of materials, the Secure Software supply chain security, even enumerating your dependencies is not trivial today. So I think there's going to be a ton of people doing really good work on that, as well as the criticality aspect. It's all like that. There's a really great xkcd cartoon with your software project and some really big monolithic lumps. And then, this tiny little piece in a very important point that's maintained by somebody in his bedroom in Montana or something and if you called it out. >> Yeah, you just opened where the next lightening and a bottle comes from. And this is I think the beauty of Open Source is that you get a little collaboration, you get three feet in a cloud of dust going and you get some momentum, and if it's relevant, it rises to the top. I think that's the collective intelligence of Open Source. The question I want to ask that the panel here is when you go into an enterprise, and now that the game is changing with a much more collaborative and involved, what's the story if they say, hey, what's in it for me, how do I manage the Open Source? What's the current best practice? Because there's no doubt I can't ignore it. It's in everything we do. How do I organize around it? How do I build around it to be more efficient and more productive and reduce the risk on vulnerabilities to managing staff, making sure the right teams in place, the right agility and all those things? >> You called it, they got to get skin in the game. They need to be active and involved and donating to a sustainable Open Source project is a great way to start. But if you really want to be active, then you should be committing. You should have a goal for your organization to be contributing back to that project. Maybe not committing code, it could be committing resources into the darks or in the tests, or even tweeting about an Open Source project is contributing to it. And I think a lot of these enterprises could benefit a lot from getting more active with the Open Source Foundations that are out there. >> Liz, you've been actively involved. I know we've talked personally when the CNCF started, which had a great commercial uptake from companies. What do you think the current state-of-the-art kind of equation is has it changed a little bit? Or is it the game still the same? >> Yeah, and in the early days of the CNCF, it was very much dominated by vendors behind the project. And now we're seeing more and more membership from end-user companies, the kind of enterprises that are building their businesses on Cloud Native, but their business is not in itself. That's not there. The infrastructure is not their business. And I think seeing those companies, putting money in, putting time in, as Brian says contributing resources quite often, there's enough money, but finding the talent to do the work and finding people who are prepared to actually chop the wood and carry the water, >> Exactly. >> that it's hard. >> And if enterprises can find peoples to spend time on Open Source projects, help with those chores, it's hugely valuable. And it's one of those the rising tide floats all the boats. We can raise security, we can reduce the amount of dependency on maintain projects collectively. >> I think the business models there, I think one of the things I'll react to and then get your guys' comments is remember which CubeCon it was, it was one of the early ones. And I remember seeing Apple having a booth, but nobody was manning. It was just an Apple booth. They weren't doing anything, but they were recruiting. And I think you saw the transition of a business model where the worry about a big vendor taking over a project and having undue influence over it goes away because I think this idea of participation is also talent, but also committing that talent back into the communities as a model, as a business model, like, okay, hire some great people, but listen, don't screw up the Open Source piece of it 'cause that's a critical. >> Also hire a channel, right? They can use those contributions to source that talent and build the reputation in the communities that they depend on. And so there's really a lot of benefit to the larger organizations that can do this. They'll have a huge pipeline of really qualified engineers right out the gate without having to resort to cheesy whiteboard interviews, which is pretty great. >> Yeah, I agree with a lot of this. One of my concerns is that a lot of these corporations tend to focus very narrowly on certain projects, which they feel that they depend greatly, they'll invest in OpenStack, they'll invest in Docker, they'll invest in some of the CNCF projects. And then these other projects get ignored. Something that I've been a proponent of for a little bit for a while is observability of your dependencies. And I don't think there's quite enough projects and solutions to this. And it sounds maybe from lists, there are some projects that I don't know about, but I also know that there's some startups like Snyk and so forth that help with a little bit of this problem, but I think we need more focus on some of these edges. And I think companies need to do better, both in providing, having some sort of solution for observability of the dependencies, as well as understanding those dependencies and managing them. I've seen companies for instance, depending on software that they actively don't want to use based on a certain criteria that they already set projects, like they'll set a requirement that any project that they use has a code of conduct, but they'll then use projects that don't have codes of conduct. And if they don't have a code of conduct, then employees are prohibited from working on those projects. So you've locked yourself into a place where you're depending on software that you have instructed, your employees are not allowed to contribute to, for certain legal and other reasons. So you need to draw a line in the sand and then recognize that those projects are ones that you don't want to consume, and then not use them, and have observability around these things. >> That's a great point. I think we have 10 minutes left. I want to just shift to a topic that I think is relevant. And that is as Open Source software, software, people develop software, you see under the hood kind of software, SREs developing very quickly in the CloudScale, but also you've got your classic software developers who were writing code. So you have supply chain, software supply chain challenges. You mentioned developer experience around how to code. You have now automation in place. So you've got the development of all these things that are happening. Like I just want to write software. Some people want to get and do infrastructure as code so DevSecOps is here. So how does that look like going forward? How has the future of Open Source going to make the developers just want to code quickly? And the folks who want to tweak the infrastructure a bit more efficient, any views on that? >> At Gaggle, we're using AWS' CDK, exclusively for our infrastructure as code. And it's a great transition for developers instead of writing Yammel or Jason, or even HCL for their infrastructure code, now they're writing code in the language that they're used to Python or JavaScript, and what that's providing is an easier transition for developers into that Infrastructure as code at Gaggle here, but it's also providing an opportunity to provide reusable constructs that some Devs can build on. So if we've got a very opinionated way to deploy a serverless app in a database and do auto-scaling behind and all stuff, we can present that to a developer as a library, and they can just consume it as it is. Maybe that's as deep as they want to go and they're happy with that. But then they want to go deeper into it, they can either use some of the lower level constructs or create PRs to the platform team to have those constructs changed to fit their needs. So it provides a nice on-ramp developers to use the tools and languages they're used to, and then also go deeper as they need. >> That's awesome. Does that mean they're not full stack developers anymore that they're half stack developers they're taking care of for them? >> I don't know either. >> We'll in. >> No, only kidding. Anyway, any other reactions to this whole? I just want to code, make it easy for me, and some people want to get down and dirty under the hood. >> So I think that for me, Docker was always a key part of this. I don't know when DevSecOps was coined exactly, but I was talking with people about it back in 2012. And when I joined Docker, it was a part of that vision for me, was that Docker was applying these security principles by default for your application. It wasn't, I mean, yes, everybody adopted because of the portability and the acceleration of development, but it was for me, the fact that it was limiting what you could do from a security angle by default, and then giving you these tuna balls that you can control it further. You asked about a project that may not get enough recognition is something called DockerSlim, which is designed to optimize your containers and will make them smaller, but it also constraints the security footprint, and we'll remove capabilities from the container. It will help you build security profiles for app armor and the Red Hat one. SELinux. >> SELinux. >> Yeah, and this is something that I think a lot of developers, it's kind of outside of the realm of things that they're really thinking about. So the more that we can automate those processes and make it easier out of the box for users or for... when I say users, I mean, developers, so that it's straightforward and automatic and also giving them the capability of refining it and tuning it as needed, or simply choosing platforms like serverless offerings, which have these security constraints built in out of the box and sometimes maybe less tuneable, but very strong by default. And I think that's a good place for us to be is where we just enforced these things and make you do things in a secure way. >> Yeah, I'm a huge fan of Kubernetes, but it's not the right hammer for every nail. And there are absolutely tons of applications that are better served by something like Lambda where a lot more of that security surface is taken care of for the developer. And I think we will see better tooling around security profiling and making it easier to shrink wrap your applications that there are plenty of products out there that can help you with this in a cloud native environment. But I think for the smaller developer let's say, or an earlier stage company, yeah, it needs to be so much more straightforward. Really does. >> Really an interesting time, 10 years ago, when I was working at Adobe, we used to requisition all these analysts to tell us how many developers there were for the market. And we thought there was about 20 million developers. If GitHub's to be believed, we think there is now around 80 million developers. So both these groups are probably wrong in their numbers, but the takeaway here for me is that we've got a lot of new developers and a lot of these new developers are really struck by a paradox of choice. And they're typically starting on the front end. And so there's a lot of movement in the stack moved towards the front end. We saw that at re:Invent when Amazon was really pushing Amplify 'cause they're seeing this too. It's interesting because this is where folks start. And so a lot of the obstructions are moving in that direction, but maybe not always necessarily totally appropriate. And so finding the right balance for folks is still a work in progress. Like Lambda is a great example. It lets me focus totally on just business logic. I don't have to think about infrastructure pretty much at all. And if I'm newer to the industry, that makes a lot of sense to me. As use cases expand, all of a sudden, reality intervenes, and it might not be appropriate for everything. And so figuring out what those edges are, is still the challenge, I think. >> All right, thank you very much for coming on the CUBE here panel. AWS Heroes, thanks everyone for coming. I really appreciate it, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay. >> Thanks for having me. >> Okay, that's a wrap here back to the program and the awesome startups. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver Canada, it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by RedHat, the OpenStack foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host for the week John Troyer. And helping us to bring it on home we have Roman Alekseenkov who's the co-founder of Aptomi. Brand new start up, I feel we've got the exclusive here to help you know, we have some blog posts out there and the like, but help to introduce you to our community and some of the broader world. Thanks for joining us. >> Yep, my first time at theCUBE. >> Alright so Roman, give us a little bit about your background and you know, we need with any, you know, founder the why of your company. >> Okay so I guess let's start with a background. So I used to work for one of the cloud infrastructure startups called Mirantis. And I worked there for a very long time. And last year I decided to start something on my own. Right, so now I am one of the main guys and one of the core contributors to the project called Aptomi. So and, I don't know if it's relevant, but before Mirantis, I've been doing a lot of the programming competitions like Google Code Jam, ACMICPC and Top Coder. My team ended up winning ACMICPC world finals. So I have like a decent background in algorithms, computer science, data structures, and things like that. >> Yeah. >> So that's me. >> We always see people are always humble there. It's, we know Mike Dvorkin is on your team. >> He is. >> People in the networking world, you know, might have run across Mike, and so super smart people. Give us the you know, the problem statement that your company's looking to solve. >> Right, so... I think it's going to be not one sentence answer. It's going to be a slightly longer answer. So when we talk to a number of companies who are using Kubernetes and who are building apps on top of Kubernetes, we looked into CI space and the CD space. And we looked at the CI, and in the CI for the most part, most of the problems seem to be solved, right. Everything that starts from your source code and then Docker file, how you build your artifacts, how you test it, and how you publish the binary to the repo, all that part seems to be streamlined. You take Jenkins, you take Docker, you take all the tools. You write some Kubernetes key, so this part, packaging components, it's not a big deal. And what we saw is where all the people are struggling is actually in the CD space, right. Once you start putting multi-container complex applications out of those pieces once you start wiring those pieces together, maybe microservices, maybe not, but once you start wiring things together, once you start running them across multiple environments, multiple clusters, right, that's where the things become really, really difficult for people who just rely on the tool set that we have today. Right, and that's where we saw an opportunity to build this service abstraction which allow people to wire things together and run them and operate them in a controllable way across multiple clusters and multiple environments integrated obviously with the continuous delivery pipelines. >> So if people weren't using Aptomi, what would they be using now? Or what kind of, what kinds of tools and processes are they bringing together if they're not doing this? Are they doing everything by hand, or how do you compare it to some of the other tools? >> Right, so a lot of people, they use some homegrown frameworks right now on top of Kubernetes and Helm. Or maybe on top of Kubernetes and YAML files. Or maybe Kubernetes and JSON is also one of the ways to do this. But there are some drawbacks in, in the approaches, right? Because we think that you want to start reasoning about those as actually applications and services not as like as a bunch of YAMLs and containers right? And so once you start talking about this as services as well as rules around those services, right maybe I want to say like hey everything that goes in my production environment should be secure or I want all my services with label "X" deployed to the dev environment or to cluster US east right? I mean the things become easier for you, 'cause you don't have to deal with the YAML file. >> Kind of from the abstraction layer up to maybe up, say to in other part of IT you might say it's policy driven almost, it's declarative, intent driven; I want this to happen rather than writing this kind of crazy YAML. Actually one of the Kubernetes founders, I dunno recently on Twitter or somewhere I was reading was saying that YAML was never supposed to be written by humans, that was kind of a mistake we meant for it to be under the covers but here we are. >> Roman: Right, but you are exactly right. It's services as well as intent around the services. >> Stu: Roman, I want to get your thoughts on just the Kubernetes ecosystem itself, you know for years here at OpenStack it was "Oh wait there's a lot of different distributions", you know, moving between one or the other wasn't necessarily easy. Kubernetes seems like we're a little bit better, a little further along, might've learned from some of the issues that we've had here. There's, last I saw it was getting around 40 different options but you know the thing I also wonder about is Kubernetes tends to get baked into platforms so you've got people that will build their own, just take the code, but you know Red Hat has a platform, all the public clouds have a platform, then there's a number of startups there. What's that like from your standpoint kind of being in this ecosystem is it, and maybe give us a little comparison compared to what it would have been like in the OpenStack world? >> Roman: Sounds good, so for us we actually we don't really care on what Kubernetes we run because we run, we help people to deliver apps and services on top. But if you talk about Kubernetes itself, we don't actually last year we haven't seen a lot of issues with Kubernetes right because we run a cluster in our lab, it just works. JKE always doesn't let me down, we also run things on Azure so speaking about the Kubernetes infrastructure I think the state of Kubernetes right now it's pretty reliable. So we don't see a lot of issues with that. But you also mentioned the platform, right so Kubernetes is part of the platform and that's the interesting part because a couple of years ago everyone was talking about Pass. It's Pass, Pass, Pass, Pass everywhere. Now you see a lot of conversations about Pass because Pass is like a monolith platform, doesn't exist anymore because it basically gets decomposed into what people call I guess containers of service and the modular tool set. And container orchestration is one part, and there is like 15 or 16 different parts from ad definition, to orchestration, and CD pipelines and security components, right? And that's why you see so many products out there with overlapping functionality. >> I mean do you think that the concept of Pass is going away at this point? Will we continue to redefine what a Pass is? I think every few years maybe that's the pattern. >> My personal opinion is that the concept of Pass is gone. There's is no more Pass. The future is the modular stack and the modular tool set. >> Stu: Yeah, so absolutely the future is becoming more distributed. I'm curious your thoughts then on something like Serverless which tends to change that even a little bit more than what we've been looking at. >> Roman: Sure well Serverless is, I guess it's not for everyone. It also depends on the type of workload that you run. If you want to run something compute intensive I guess it's still going to be containers or even VMs but likely containers. But if you have some stateless front-end or API, something that you sometimes make a call to and have to do something and get a response back sure Serverless is great, and Serverless actually fits quite well into what Mike and are tying to do with Aptomi. >> John: Roman I also wanted to ask about dependency mapping and visualizing dependencies. Hybrid cloud has been a big theme this week. It's actually a big theme in enterprise and elsewhere. When that happens when you have separate components whether they are monolithic components that are talking to each other down to microservices, dependencies are huge at that, the application level dependencies, especially as you move to hybrid cloud because you might be moving some component away from the rest and you better know what's talking to the other components. Any thoughts on how that is developing as architecture, application architectures and what you guys are doing to help there? >> Roman: Yeah so there's basically two ways how you can approach this so one way is the traditional way where you just open up your Kubernetes to a bunch of developers and people just run their things in different namespaces. If you use that approach I think those dependencies between different components, what relies on what, who's talking to whom, they become non-obvious, it's really hard to discover them once you got things deployed. So we are taking a slightly different approach because we require a little bit more information upfront about dependencies between components so once you deploy things through Aptomi we kind of already know what exists on the clusters and why, and who owns the resources, and who asked for certain services to be deployed. So we do provide some contextual visibility into that. And what's really nice is we're trying to build this, or we are building this on top of the community standards, we are not reinventing the whole platform, or trying to invent a new language, it's basically build ontop of Kubernetes and Helm. It's just a simple declarative service based abstraction and it rules. >> Stu: Last thing I wanted to ask, Aptomi itself, you know what's the state of the project? Is it a 1.0, are you looking for contributors, where are you with customers, help round off the understanding of the company and project. >> Sounds good, so we are one year into the project. The project is completely open source, it's on Github. It has 4 contributors right now and close to 2,000 commits maybe a little bit more. 100 star, 100+ on Github, so we're getting some traction, in the open source. Speaking about the readiness I think it's we're not 1.0 yet but we're getting close to 1.0. And the core of it, and the whole project is completely open source right, it's 100% Apache 2.0, but what we also do we also offer a hosted version with support. Right so when people come and they can just get the complete CD system with the service based layer and abstraction through our hosted version with support and that's what we are charging money for and revenue wise we do have paying customers, but it's only a year in so. Not a big amount but, there's going to be more. >> Stu: Alright well, Roman Alekseenkov really appreciate you sharing with us. Congratulations on the progress so far, seen an item I'd like working for us and for John Troyer. I'm Stu Miniman, we thank you for joining for 3 days of live wall-to-wall coverage of big final shout-out to the OpenStack Foundation and the supports of theCUBE for the whole crew here. Thank you for watching theCUBE. >> (electro-dance music) >> (soft piano) >> Astronaught: I recommend you activate my bit-ray over.

(upbeat electronic music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back a company we've spoken to a few times at events, Paddy Power Betfair. First time guest coming to us from across the pond, Dave Buckley who is the automation engineer with Paddy Power Betfair, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> Alright, so first of all, you've been to a couple summits and we've talked to Paddy Power about OpenStack. Before we get into your specific implementation, tell us about your experience here this week and any compare, contrast to previous years. >> Yeah so I'm very lucky, I got to come to the previous two summits in North America. I guess what I've enjoyed this week, it's kind of a slight tilt towards, it's away from being purely OpenStack, kind of towards this open infrastructure kind of thing, 'cause like I said, especially last year in Boston, Q and NEs was becoming a big thing. Yeah, and kind of, the OpenStack Foundation becoming kind of more, not that it wasn't before, but more community-based and being part of the ecosystem. So, yeah, I think it's been quite interesting seeing that. >> Not to put words in your mouth but, it was even, the last year or two, it's more aware of some of the complimentary things and adding pieces. You know, we had, one of the interviews we did this week was person who's the SIC lead for the Kubernetes stuff, that sits under another Foundation, things like that. Yeah, exactly. It's been quite interesting this week, I guess, sort the Kata Container project, which wasn't something I'd been aware of before Monday morning basically. I remember we were sitting in the keynotes, and they were like, you can have this container-like thing which has all the speed of a container, but it's as secure as a BM. And you're thinking, how, how is that even possible? So I've really enjoyed, I got to go to one of the sessions yesterday, one of the technical introductions on that. >> Yeah, I always love, there's certain things where, okay, this is what I'm going to do with my schedule, and turns into, this got announced, or I didn't know about this, and you knew, blow up my schedule, let me change everything else. Yeah, exactly, I think you always, you can't, you have to be flexible, right? Adaptable, and as the week goes on you just go to what you think is interesting. >> John: So Dave, you and your company have been working with OpenStack for quite a while. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And you obviously run a system that needs to be stable. Right, needs to, you take care of betting and people's money. >> Dave: Exactly. >> So that needs to be solid. But I understand you recently went though an upgrade and have some experiences talking about that? Can you talk a little bit about where you are with your OpenStack implementation and that sort of migration? >> Sure. So, I guess it's about three years ago, it was Betfair at the time, so this was before the merger of the two companies. So Betfair started using OpenStack, and I think it was actually the last time the summit was here, in Vancouver. So a couple of my colleagues who were kind of the technical leads at the time. Steve Armstrong and Steve Perera, they flew out here, to kind of get a feel for OpenStack, what it was, talk to people who'd had experiences with it. I actually think that conference back then was very informative of what the platform today now looks like. So some of the conversations they had there with people like New Age Networks and Arista, which we used for the switching, but conversations they had there kind of ended up being now what we're using in production. I guess over the past couple of years, so the big thing that happened obviously was this merger between Paddy Power and Betfair, following that they had an exercise which they called the single customer platform, which is annoyingly, for a sys-admin guy, kind of like me, they, it's always been abbreviated to SCP, but you have to ignore that. So that was to kind of consolidate and integrate the Paddy Power and Betfair co-bases and put it on a single platform, which was our OpenStack and Nuage platform. So that kind of completed in January this year, so that's live, so basically the Paddy Power sports book has an entirely new website, all running on OpenStack. A lot quicker and more efficient then the previous version. So that's been a real success. And as part of that, I should say that stability is really vital, so kind of in our business. If the site is down we don't make any money, and if it happens during a big sporting event you have a big problem. >> Do you have a metric around that? What a minute or an hour of down time would be? >> So I guess it always depends, so the nature of our traffic is very spikey. So obviously when you have a big, it's on a Saturday in Europe, the football, soccer, maybe I should say, is like a very big deal. >> We have a global audience, football's okay. >> I'll stick with football then. >> We were all watching the royal wedding. >> I don't want to talk about that. The football, if you, we just get peak traffic on that day. And, even within the year, there's a thing called the Grand National, which is a big event in the UK, big horse racing, I guess like the Kentucky Derby. It's kind of when we get our maximum traffic in the year. Yeah, you always need to be prepared for that. So one of the things as you mentioned, we kind of look into upgrade OpenStack from Kilo to Newton. So we've been on Kilo from the start. We're using Red Hat's distribution of OpenStack, so what Red Hat offer is this, they have like every three releases I think it is? They have this long release life-cycle. So that's kind of the reason we're going to Newton, cause we have kind of the, then the support will go to 2021. [Stu] - But if I remember, it's Red Hat the OpenStack Platform 10. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And 13 is going to be queened as their next one that's going to be released. >> Exactly, so I think they just announced that this week, right? So I think at some point in the next year or two we'd be going to queens. >> How do you determine when you make that jump and anything around the upgrade process, you know, good and bad that you could share. >> Dave: Yeah, so I guess going from, we were overdue an upgrade in this case, Kilos, you know, pretty old now. What we're lucky that we can do is because we have Nuage, it's like an external SDM provider, so the entire data plane is controlled by Nuage, and you can kind of plug as many OpenStacks as you like really into Nuage, and you offload all the networking to Nuage. So what's that's allowed us to do is basically we'd have had a lot of trouble if we'd had to do an in place upgrade, so I've actually been to one of the groups this week, quite a lot of people were talking about upgrades and just like all the nightmares it's caused. I know it's getting better as like the releases come out, but what we were able to do is kind of building new, an entirely new OpenStack cloud on the side of, so we've kind of turned it kind of an immutable OpenStack, so your OSB 7 cloud is there, we built this new OSB 10. But they're both circ into the same networking, so the same Nuage SDN. And the way our developers deploy their applications, I guess you want to see this in more detail, we've done presentations at these summits in the past, but kind of in short, every deployment we do immutable deployments as well, so for every deployment we'll create a new subnet within Nuage, and kind of do rolling update of your VMs that are on that new subnet into like a VIP which is kind of where the constant is, so all the traffic's come in to that VIP then you just flip things in and out below it when you do a deployment, so what that basically means is from a developers point of view, when they're migrating from OSB 7 to OSB 10 they'll essentially spin up new networks and new VMs in OSB 10 and that deployment pipeline will kind of just seamlessly, everything else will stay the same because the networking doesn't change. So we don't have to have any downtime on the data plane or the control plane. Which is really beneficial for us 'cause the way, I guess this is I'll just describe the way developers do deployments like we rely heavily on the OpenStack API being available. You pay a cost in that you, so you need extra hardware to do that I guess, but yeah we found it is something that's worked for us. >> John: Anything else with the networking and specifically that you all are running, the load balancing or resiliency that you need to have for your apps? >> Dave: Yeah so one of the things was, so it's kind of another problem there were trying to solve with this whole project, this new OpenStack platform is that historically Betfair, as it was at the time, had always run out of a single data-center. But we had another site, but it was mainly kind of a development environments right in there. So the company thought why don't we just have, we should just have both DCs for resiliency, try and run things in like an active-active configuration. Which is fine for external customer facing applications where we've had an external load balance server that can point traffic between the two DCs. But then the question is what do you do with internal apps? So this is what led us to use Avi Networks, which is kind of a cloud native load balancing technology, so we've been using to provide like GSLB internal laps, so basically we'll load balance traffic between the two data-centers so it gets deployed within your OpenStack environment, has a really neat integration with Nuage, the Nuage SDN layer, and will resolve you to whichever data-center is appropriate at that time. So if you have a full data-center outtage, you should be able to go "Okay, point stuff over there". >> John: So it makes you and the networking team or the IT team into the heroes not the villains, you're usually the people saying "No" or "We can't do that". >> I guess so, I guess so yeah you're probably right. It's cool technology though. I guess that we're very lucky and that we're given the opportunity by the people at the company to experiment with new things, so even though we're about stability but we're also about trying to push things forward in terms of what technology to use. >> Stu: Dave I'm curious how kind of the hybrid or multi-cloud type of environments fit into what you're doing today, give us the update there. >> Dave: Yeah so that's something very in our radar at the moment I guess it's, yeah it's what everybody's doing, looking to how you can have this hybrid cloud model. So I think, going back three years again, at that time, being like an online betting company, it's a highly regulated business and only at that point it was really possible to kind of put some of this stuff into the public cloud, it seems like things have come a long way, so it's something we're looking at at the moment, we're evaluating different solutions, different vendors like the Googles, AWSs, and seeing or even like some OpenStack public clouds and seeing maybe how could we migrate some workloads out into the public cloud, how do we want to that, to give us more resiliency, and also as I was saying about our spiky traffic, it just makes a lot of sense to be able to say burst out into whichever public cloud vendor on a Saturday when the football's on to deal with that peak load. So it's something we're very much looking at at the moment. But yeah no formal decisions as of yet. Unless they've done something while I've been away. >> John: With containers here at the show, lots of different threads right? Containers, Edge, the OpenDev track, things like that. Anything else, we've talked about Kata, anything else that came up that was interesting here that you just watch Kubernetes and container track as well? >> Dave: So I guess in terms of containers it's, sitting in the Keynotes on Monday you would, if you weren't watching if you were just listening, you probably wouldn't know you were at an OpenStack Summit right since there's as much Kubernetes container stuff as there is OpenStack. It's interesting so we've kind of been doing... Again, similar to the public cloud conversation, it's something that's very relevant to us at the moment, we've done kind of a few proof-of-concept ideas, evaluating different solutions, so we have like running a Cube cluster ourself, obviously we have a strong relationship with Red Hat that we've kind of explored to using OpenShift maybe, and then come the networking layer you can integrate with Nuage which would be really cool for us so it'll allow us to do kind of the all the networking, access control mechanisms as we do for our virtual machines. And again this is also something in the whole public cloud conversation is well if wanted to containers in the public cloud as well like you have all the different offerings, would we want to run our own, in like an AWS or something? Or maybe go to someone like Google where you have that supported self-service model I suppose. But yeah at the moment it's kind of at those stages so I think Steve did a presentation on the Kubernetes stuff like a PCO we done at the last Summit. But yeah still at the moment still want to make some firm decisions about which direction we're going to go but a lot of the developers a very keen for this and obviously for guys like us we all know the value of it so I think at the moment because we had that focus on stability we should now have a period of time where we're able to kind of look at all this stuff a bit more, hopefully get some container solutions into production which would be awesome. >> Stu: Dave Buckley we really appreciate you giving us the update, love to be able to do some of those longitudinal case studies as to where you've been where you're going, what you're thinking about. Be sure to check out thecube.net, you can actually search for Patty Power Betfair, see some of those previous interviews from Dave's peers. Loads more interviews there as well as all the shows we're going to be at in the future where hope you come by and say "Hi". For John Troyer I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching theCUBE. >> (electro-dance music) >> (soft piano)

>> (Narrator) Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's The Cube, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its Ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer and you're watching The Cube, worldwide leader in tech coverage, and this is OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Happy to welcome to the program, first-time guest Melvin Hillsman, who's the governance board member of OpenLab, which we got to hear about in the keynote on Monday. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> Alright, so Melvin, we were given, start us off with a little bit about your background, what brought you to the OpenStack community, and we'll go from there. >> Sure, yeah, so my background is in Linux system administration and my getting involved in OpenStack was more or less seeing the writing on the wall as it relates to virtualization and wanting to get an early start in understanding how things would pan out over the course of some years. So I probably started OpenStack maybe three or four so years ago. I was probably later to the party than I wanted to be, but through that process, started working at Rackspace first and that's how I really got more involved into OpenStack in particular. >> Yeah, you made a comment, though. The writing on the wall for virtualization. Explained that for a sec. >> So for me, I was at a shared hosting company and we weren't virtualizin' anything. We were using traditional servers, dedicated servers, installing hundreds of customers on those servers. And so, at one point, what we started doing was we would take a dedicated server, we would create a virtual machine on it, but we would use most of the resources of that dedicated server, and so what allowed that shared hosting was to tear stuff down and recreate it, but it was very manual process and so, of course, the infrastructure service and orchestration around that OpenStack was becoming the de facto standard and way of doing it, and so I didn't want to try to learn manually, or fix something up internally, I wanted to go where OpenStack was being highly developed a lot and people working on it in their day to day jobs, which is why I went to Rackspace. >> Okay, one of the things we look at, this is a community here, so it takes people from lots of different backgrounds, and some of them do it on their spare time, some of them are paid by larger companies to participate, so to tell us about OpenLab, itself, and how your company participates there. >> Sure, so I started, well I'm at Huawei now, but I was at Rackspace and that's kind of how I got more involved in the community and there I started working on testing things above the OpenStack ecosystem, so things that people want to build on top of OpenStack and during that process Huawei reached out to me and was like hey you know you're doing a great job here, and I was like yeah I would love to come and explore more of how we can increase this activity in the community at large. And so Oakland Lab was essentially born out of that, which the OpenStack community, they deliver the OpenStack API's, and they kind of stop there, you know. Everything above that is, you do that on your own, more or less, and so also, as a chair of the user committee, again, just being more concerned about the people who are using stuff, OpenLab was able, was available to facilitate me having access to hardware and access to people who are using things outside OverStack in use cases, et cetera, where we want to test out more integrated tools working with OpenStack and different versions of OpenStack. And so that's essentially what OpenLab is-- >> So in OpenLab, projects come together and it's basically, it's an Interop, boy, in the networking world, they've had the Interop plug and plug fest for a long time, but, in essence, projects come together and you integrate them and start, you invite them in and they integrate and start to test them. Starting with, I mean, I see, for this release, Terraform and Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so a lot of people want to to use Kubernetes, right? And as an OpenStack operator you essentially, you don't really want to go and learn all the bits of Kubernetes, necessarily, and so, but you want to use Kubernetes and you want to work seamlessly with OpenStack and you want to use the API's that you're used to using with OpenStack and so we work very heavily on the external cloud provider for OpenStack, enabling Cinder V3 for containers that you're spinning up in Kubernetes, so that they have seamless integration, you don't have to try to attach your volumes, they are automatically attached. You don't have to figure out what your load balancing is going to to look like. You use Octavia, which is load balancing service for OpenStack, very tightly integrated and things, you know, as you spin things up, they work as you as you would expect and so then all the other legacy applications and all the things you're used to doing with OpenStack, you bring on Kubernetes and you essentially do things the way you've been doing them before, with just an additional layer. >> Yeah, now I wonder if you can talk a little bit about the providers and the users, you know how do they get engaged, to and give us a little flavor around those. >> Yeah, so you get engaged, you go to OpenLabtesting.org and there's two options. One, is you can test out your applications and tools, by clicking get started, you fill that out. And what's great about open lab is that we actually reach out and we talk with you, we consult with you, per se, because we have a lot of variation in hardware that's available to us and so we want to figure out the right hardware that you need in order to do the tests that you want, so that we can get the output as it relates to that integration that will, of course, educate and inform the community at large of whether or not it's working and been validated. And, again, so as a person who wants to support OpenLab or for a provider, for example, who wants to support OpenLab, you click on the support OpenLab link, you fill out a form and you tell us you know, do you want to provide more infrastructure, do you want to talk with us about how clouds are being architected, integrations are being architected, things that you're seeing in the open source use cases that may not be getting the testing that they need and you're willing to work with engineers from other companies around that, so individual testers and then companies who may bring a number of testers together around a particular use case. >> Now, you're starting to publish some of the results of Interop testing and things like that. How is open lab, how does it produce its results, is it eventually going to be producing white papers and things like that or dashboards or what's your vision there? >> Yeah, so we produce a very archaic dashboard right now, but we're working with the CNCF to, if you go to CNCF.CI, and they have a very nice dashboard that kind of shows you a number of projects and whether or not they work together. And so it's open source, so what we want to do is work with that team to figure out how do we change the logos and the git repos, to how to driving those red and green, success or failure icons that are there, but they're relevant to the test that we're doing in OpenLab, so yeah. So we definitely want to have a dashboard that's very easy to decipher what tests are failing in or passing. >> Looking forward, what kinds of projects are you most interested in getting involved? >> Right now, very much Kubernetes, of course. We're really focusing on multi architecture, again, as a result of our work with Kubernetes and driving full conformance and multi architecture. That's kind of the wheelhouse at this time. We're open for folks to give us a lot of different use cases, like we were starting to look at some edge stuff, how can we participate there, we're starting looking at FPGA's and GPU's, so a lot different, we don't have a full integration in a lot of different areas, just yet, but we are having those conversations. >> So, actually, I spent a bunch of years, when I worked on the vendor side, living in an Interrupt lab, and the most valuable things were not figuring out what worked, but what broke, so what kind of things, you know, as you're working through this, what learnings back do you share with the community, both the providers and users? Big stumbling blocks that you can help people, give a red flag, or say you know, avoid these type of things. >> Yeah, exactly what you just said. You know, what's good is some of our stuff is geographically dispersed, so we can start to talk about if, what's the latency look like? You may, within that few square miles that you're operating and doing things, it works great, but when I'm sending something across the water how, is your product still moving quickly, is the latency too bad that we can't, I can't create a container over here because it takes too long, so one example of looking at something fail as it relates to that is we're talking with Octavia folks to see, if I spin up a lot of containers am I going to therefore create a lot of load balancers and if I create a lot of load balancers I'm creating a lot of VM's, or am I creating a lot of containers or are things breaking apart, so we need to dig a little bit further to understand what is and is not working with the integrations we're currently working on and then again we're exploring GPV, GPUs just landed more or less, that was a part of the keynote as well, and so now we're talking about, well, let's do some of that testing. The software, the code, is there but is it usable? And so that's one area we want to start playing around with. >> Okay, one of the other things in the keynote's got mentioned was Zul, the CIDT tool, how's that fitting into the OpenLab? >> Yeah, we use Zul as our gating, so what's great about Zul is that you can interac6t with projects from different SCM's, so we have some projects that live in github, some that utilize Garrote, some that utilize gitlab, and Zul has applicability where it can talk to different, it can talk across these different SCM's, and if you have a patch that depends on a patch in another another pod, so a patch on one project in one SCM can depend on a patch in another project, in a different SCM, and so what's great about Zul is that you can say, hey I'm depending on th6at, so before this patch lands, check to make sure this stuff works over there, so if it succeeds there and it's a dependency then you basically confirm that succeeds there and then now I can run the test here, and it passes here as well, so you know that you can use both of those projects together again, in an integration. Does it makes sense? Hopefully I'm making it very clear, the power there with the cross SCM integration. >> Yeah, Melvin, you've had a busy week, here, at the show. Any, you know, interesting things you learned this week or something that you heard from a customer that you thought, oh boy we got to, you know, get this into our lab or a road map or, you know-- >> The ARM story, the multi architecture is, I feel like that's really taking off. We've had discussions with quite a few folks around that, so yeah, that for me, that's the next thing that I think we're really going to concentrate a little bit harder on is, again, figuring out if there are some problems, because mostly it's been just x86, but we need to start exploring what's breaking as we add more to multi architecture. >> Melvin, no shortage of new things to test and play with, and every customer always brings some unique spins on things, so appreciate you giving us the update on OpenLab, thanks so much for joining us. >> You're Welcome. Thanks for having me. >> From John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching The Cube. (electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Vancouver, Canada, It's theCUBE. Covering OpenStack Summit, North America, 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018, here in Vancouver. Three days wall-to-wall coverage. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost, John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program, Radhesh Balakrishnan, who is the general manager of OpenStack with Red Hat. Radhesh, great to see you. It's been a week since John talked to you, and always good to have you on at the show. >> Great to be on. Good to be here talking about OpenStack at OpenStack Summit. >> Yeah so, look, OpenStack is in the title of your job. I believe, did we have a birthday cake and a party celebrating a certain milestone? >> That is indeed true; so it's the fifth anniversary of that fact that we've had a product, Red Hat OpenStack Platform, on the market. And so, we've been doing a little bit of a look back at how far we have come in the last five years as well as looking ahead at, you know, how does the next three to five years shape as well. >> Yeah, Radhesh, I'm going to date myself and when I think back to, gosh it was 18 years ago, I was working with Linux, and there were kernels all over the place and things like that. And then, I worked for an enterprise storage company and was like, ugh, like keeping up with Chrome.org was a pain in the neck. There came out this thing called Red Hat Advanced Server that was like, oh wait, we can glom onto this, we can support this with our customers, and that eventually turned into RHEL, which, of course, kind of becomes the main standard for how to do Linux. I feel like we have a lot of similarities. >> Radhesh: Absolutely, absolutely. >> In how we did. RHOSP, I believe, is the acronym, so. >> That's exactly right, and we like to have long names. >> Which are very descriptive, but Red Hat OpenStack Platform, fundamentally, to your point brings the same valid proposition that RHEL brought to Linux, to OpenStack, with the twist that, it's not just curated OpenStack, but it's a co-engineered solution of Linux and Cavium and OpenStack. And along the way we learned that, look, it's not just OpenStack and the infrastructure solution. It's done in conjunction with the software-defined storage solution or it's done in conjunction with software-defined networking. Or, fast-forward all the way now, it's being done in conjunction with cloud-native applications running on top of it, right? But regardless, in five years we've been able to grow to address these different demands being placed at infrastructure level, and at the same time evolved to address new-use cases as well; Telco is an example of that. >> Radhesh, let's spend a couple of minutes, though, on the OpenStack Platform itself from Red Hat. Some of the things, guys, that you were bringing to market, I know we talked about, here at the show, fast-forward upgrades, for instance were, they were just introducing, and maybe some other things in the Queens release that you all are bringing forward and have engineered. >> Yeah, thanks for that question, very topical, in the sense that yesterday we launched OSP 13, which is the latest and greatest version based on Queens release. If you look at the innovation packed in that it fundamentally falls in three buckets. One is the bread part that you talked about, whereby, anybody who is standing on OSP 10, which was the prior, long-release lifecycle product, over to 13, how do you kind of get over there in a graceful manner is the first area that we have addressed. The second area is around security, because how do you make sure that OpenStack-based clouds are secure by default, from the day you roll out all the way to until you retire it, right? I don't know if there's going to be a retirement, but that's the intent of all the security enablements that we have in the product as well. And the third one, how do we make sure that containers in OpenStack can come together in a nice manner. >> Yeah, the container piece is something else that, so a lot of effort, here at the show. They announced Kata containers, which, trying to give the security of a VM, lightweight VM. How does Red Hat look at Kata containers? I know Red Hat, you know Linux's containers, you know, very strong position, fill us in on that. >> Yeah, to maybe pull back a little bit and then look at the larger picture of there is the notion of infrastructure or the open infrastructure that you need and OpenStack is a good starting point for that. And then, you overlay on top of that an application deployment management configuration, lifecycle management solution that's the container platform called OpenShift, right. These are the two centers of gravity for the stack. Now, aspects such as Kata containers or Hubbard, which is for again, similar concept of addressing how do you use virtualization in addition to containers to bring some of the value around security et cetera, right? So we are continuing to engage in all these upstream projects, but we'll be careful and methodical in bringing those technologies into our products as we go along. >> Okay, how about Edge is the other kind of major topic that we're having here, I know I've interviewed some Red Hat customers looking at NFV solutions, so some of the big telcos you know specifically that use various pieces. What do you hear from your customers and help us kind of draw that line between the NFV to the Edge. Yeah, so Edge has become the center is kind of the new joke in the sense that, from an NFV perspective, customers have already effectively addressed the CORD errors and the challenges, now it's about how do you scale that and deploy that on a massive scale, right? That's a good problem to have. Now the goodness of virtualization can be brought all the way down to the radio Edge so that a programmable network becomes the reality that a telco or a carrier can get into. So in that context, Edge becomes a series of use cases. You know, it's not just one destination. Another way to say it is there is Edge an objective and there is Edge as a noun. Edge as the objective is a set of technologies that are enabling Edge, Edge networking, right. Edge management, for example, and then Edge as a destination where you have a series of Edge locations starting from CORD error center going all the way to radio. Now, the technology answers for all these are just being figured out right now. So you can say, you know, put crudely, KBM, OpenStack, containers, and Ansible will be all good elements that will come into the picture when it comes to a solution for all these footprints. >> Nice. Radhesh, maybe let's switch over to talk about the summit here, and the people here, filled with people being productive with OpenStack, right? Either looking at it, upgrading it, inheriting it. We talked to people in a bunch of different scenarios Red Hat, huge installed base, and you are good at helping and supporting, and uplifting, and upskilling a set of operators who started with Linux and now have to be responsible for an entire cloud infrastructure. Plus, now, at this conference, we've been talking about containers, we've been talking about open dev, right. That's again broadening the scope of what an operator might have to deal with. How does Red Hat look at that? How are you and your team helping upskill and enhance the role of the operator? >> Yeah, so I think it comes down to, how do we make sure that we are understanding the journey that the operator himself or herself is taking from a career perspective, right, the skill set of evolving from Linux and core automation-related skills to going to being able to understand what does it mean to live with cloud implementation on a day-to-day basis. What does it mean to live with network function virtualization as the way in which new services are going to be deployed. So, our course curriculum has evolved to be able to address all these needs today. That's one dimension, the other dimension is how do we make sure that the product itself is so easy that the journey is getting to a point where the infrastructure is invisible, and the focus is on the application platform on top. So I think we have multiple areas of focus to get to the point where it's so relevant that it's invisible, if that paradox makes sense. That's what we're trying to make happen with OpenStack. >> Radhesh, Red Hat has a very large presence at the show here; we were noting in the keynote the underlying infrastructure didn't get a lot of discussion because it is more mature, and therefore, we can talk about everything like VGPUs and containers, and everything like that. But Red Hat has a lot in the portfolio that helps in some of those underlying pieces. So maybe you can give us some of the highlights there. >> Absolutely, so we aren't looking at OpenStack as the be-all end-all destination for customers, but rather an essential ingredient in the journey to a hybrid cloud. So when you have that lens it becomes natural to you that a portfolio of our offerings, which are either first-party or in conjunction with our partners --we have over 400 partners with whom we have joint solutions as well -- so you naturally take a holistic view and then say, "How do you optimize the experience of ceph plus OpenStack for example." So we were talking about Edge recently, right, in the context of Edge we realize that there is a particular use-case for hyperconverged infrastructure whereby you need to collocate, compute, and store it in a way that the footprint is so small and easy to manage plus you want to have one life-cycle both for OpenStack and ceph right, so to address that we announced, right at hypercloud infrastructure for cloud, as an offering that is co-engineered between ceph team, or our storage team, and the OpenStack team. Right, that's just an example of how, by bringing the rest of the portfolio, we're able to address needs being expressed by our customers today. Or you look forward in terms of use-case, one thing that we are hearing from all our large customers, such as the Amadeus's of the world is, make the experience of OpenShift on OpenStack, easy to deploy and manage, as well as reduce the penalty of running containers on VMs. Because we understand the benefits of security and all of that, but we want to be able to get that without having any penalty of using a virtual infrastructure so that's why we're heavily focused on OpenShift, on OpenStack, as the form-factor for delivering that while continuing to work on things such as Kata containers as well as, you know, Kuryrs, as technology is evolving to make communities much richer as well as the infrastructure management at OpenStack level richer. >> You brought up an interesting point, we spoke a little bit yesterday with John Allessio and Margaret Dawson, about really that kind of multi-cloud world out there, because pieces like Kubernetes and Ansible, aren't just in the data center with this one stack, it's spanning across multiple environments and when we talk to customers, they do cloud, and cloud is multiple things in multiple places and changing all the time. So I'd love to get your viewpoint on what you hear from customers, how Red Hat's helping them across all those environments. >> Absolutely, so the key differentiation we see in being able to provide to our customers is that unlike some of the other providers out there, they're where they are stitching you with a particular private cloud, with the particular public cloud, and then saying, "Hey, this is sort of the equivalent of the AOL walled gardens, if you will, right, that's being created for a particular private and public cloud. What we're saying is fundamentally three things. First is, the foundation of Linux skills from RHEL that you have is going to be what you can build on to innovate for today and tomorrow, that's number one. Secondly, you can invest in infrastructure that is 100% open using OpenStack so that you can use commodity hardware, bring in multiple use-cases which are bleeding it, such as data lags, big data, Apache Spark, or going all the way to cloud-native application, development on top of OpenStack. And then last but not least, when you are embarking on a multi-cloud journey it is important that you're not tied to innovation speed of one particular public cloud provider, or even a private cloud provider, for that matter, so being able to get to a container platform, which is OpenShift, that can run pretty much everywhere, either on PREM or on a public cloud, and give you that single pane of consistency for your application, which is where business and IT alignment is the focus right now, then I think you've got the best of all the worlds. You know, freedom from vendor-lock in, and a future-proof infrastructure and application platform that can take you to where you need to go, right. So pretty excited to be able to deliver on that consistently as of today, as well as in the coming years. >> All right, we just want to give you the final word, for people out there that ... you know, often they get their opinion based on when they first heard of something. OpenStack's been around for a number of years, five years now, with your platform. Give us the takeaway for 2018 here from OpenStack Summit as to how they should be thinking about OpenStack, in that larger picture. >> The key takeaway is that OpenStack is rock-solid, that you can bring into your environment, not just to power your virtual machine infrastructure, but also baremetal infrastructure on which you can bring in containers as well. So if you're thinking about an infrastructure fabric, either to power your telco network or to power your private cloud in its entirety OpenStack is the only place that you need to be looking at and our OpenStack platform from end to end delivers that value proposition. Now the second aspect to think about is, OpenStack is a step in the journey of a hybrid future destination that you can get to. Red Hat not only has the set of surround products and technologies to round-up the solution, but also have the largest partner ecosystem to offer you choice. So what's your excuse from getting to a hybrid cloud today if not tomorrow? >> Well, Radhesh Balakrishnan, thank you for all the updates appreciate catching up with you once again. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Minimam, getting near the end of three days wall-to-wall coverage here in Vancouver, thank you so much for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Vancouver, Canada. It's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America, 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation and its Ecosystem partners. (soft music) >> Hi, and you're watching SiliconANGLE Medias coverage of theCUBE, here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in beautiful Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. We've been here, this is now the third day of coverage, John. We've done a couple dozen interviews already. We've got one more day of coverage. We had some kind of perceptions coming in and I have some interesting differing viewpoints as to where we are for OpenStack the project, where this show itself is going. First of all John, give me your impressions overall. Vancouver, your first time here, city I fell in love with last time I came here, and let's get into the show itself, too. >> Sure, sure, I mean the show's a little bit smaller this year than it had been in past years. Some of that is because they pulled some of the technical stuff out last year, or a couple years ago. By being a little bit smaller, and being in a place like Vancouver, I get good energy off of the crowd. The folks we've talked to, the folks that have been going to sessions, have said they've been very good. The people here are practitioners. They are running OpenStack, or about to run OpenStack, or upgrading their OpenStack, or other adjacent technologies. They're real people doing real work. As we talk to folks and sponsors, the conversations have been productive. So, I'd say in general, this kind of a small venue and a beautiful city allows for a really productive community-oriented event, so that's been great. >> Alright, so John come on, on the analysis segment we're not allow to pull any punches. Attendance, absolutely is down. Three years ago when we were here it was around 5500. Mark Collier, on our opening segment, said there was about 2600. But two-year point, I've not talked to a single vendor or attendee here that was like, "Oh boy, nobody's here, "it's not goin' on." Yes, the Expo Hall is way smaller and people flowing through the Expo Hall isn't great all the time, but why is that? Because the people that are here, they're in sessions. They have 40 sessions about Edge Computing. Hot topic, we've talked a bunch about that. Interesting conversations. There is way more in Containers. Containers for more than three years, been a topic conversation. There's so many other sessions of people digging in. The line you've used a couple a time is the people here are people that have mortgages. In a good way, it means these are jobs, these are not them, "Oh, I heard about "this cool new thing, and I'm going to "go check out beautiful Vancouver." Now, yes, we've brought our spouses or significant others, and checking out the environment because yeah, this place is awesome, but there's good energy at the show. There's good technical conversation. Many of the people we've talked to, even if they're not the biggest OpenStack fans, they're like, "But our customers are using this in a lot of different ways." Let's talk about OpenStack. Where is it, where isn't it? What's your take from what you've heard from the customers and the vendors? >> Sure, I definitely think the conversation is warranted. As we came in, from outside the community there was a lot of conversation, even backchannel, like why are you going to OpenStack Summit? What's going on there, is it still alive? Which is kind of a perception of maybe it's an indication of where the marketing is on this project, or where it is on the hype cycle. In terms of where it is and where it isn't, it's built into everything. At this point OpenStack, the infrastructure management, open infrastructure management solution, seems to be mature. Seems to be inside every Telco, every cable company, every transportation company, every bank. People who need private resources and have the smarts and power to do that have leveraged OpenStack now. That seems stable. What was interesting here is, that that doesn't speak to the health overall, and the history of, or the future of the project itself, the foundation, the Summit, I think those are separate questions. You know, the infrastructure and projects seem good. Also here, like we've talked about, this show is not just about OpenStack now. It's about Containers, it's broadening the scope of these people informally known as infrastructure operators, to the application level as well. >> Yeah, if you want to hear a little bit more, some two great interviews we did yesterday. Sean Michael Kerner, who's a journalist. Been here for almost every single one of the OpenStack shows. He's at eWeek, had some really good discussion. He said private cloud, it doesn't exist. Now, he said what does he mean by that? There are companies that are building large scalable cloud with OpenStack but it's like if some of the big China Telecom, big China cloud companies. Oracle and IBM have lots of OpenStack, in what they do, and yes there are, as you mentioned, the telcos are a big used case. We had some Canonical customers talking about Edge as in a used case for a different type of scalability. Lots of nodes but not one massive infrastructure as a service piece. If I talk, kind of the typical enterprise, or definitely going the SNE piece of the market, this is not something that they go and use. They will use services that have OpenStack. It might be part of the ecosystem that they're playing, but people saying, "Oh, I had my VMware environment "and I want to go from virtualization "to private cloud" OpenStack is not usually the first choice, even though Red Hat has some customers that kind of fit into some of the larger sides of that, and we'll be talking to them more about that today. Randy Bias is the other one, take a look. Randy was one of the early, very central to a lot of stuff happening in the Foundation. He's in the networking space now, and he says even though he's not a cheerleader for OpenStack, he's like, "Why am I here? "That's where my customers are." >> Right, right. I mean, I do think it's interesting that public cloud is certainly mentioned. AWS, Google, et cetera, but it's not top of mind for a lot of these folks, and it's mentioned in very different ways depending on, kind of, the players. I think it's very different from last week at Red Hat Summit. Red Hat, with their story, and OpenShift on top of OpenStack, definitely talked public cloud for folks. Then they cross-cloud, hybrid-cloud. I think that was a much different conversation than I've been hearing this week. I think basically, kind of maybe, depends on the approach of the different players in the market, Stu. I know you've been talkin' to different folks about that. >> Yeah, absolutely. So like, Margaret Dawson at Red Hat helped us talk about how that hybrid-cloud works because here, I hate to say it's, some oh yeah, public cloud, that's too expensive. You're renting, it's always going to be more. It's like, well no, come on, let's understand. There's lot of applications that are there and customers, it's an and message for almost all of them. How does that fit together, I have some critiques as to how this goes together. You brought up another point though John, OpenStack Foundation is more than just OpenStack projects. So, Kata Containers, something that was announced last year, and we're talking about there's Edge, there's a new CI/CD tool, Zuul, which is now fully under the project. Yes, joke of the week, there is no OpenStack, there's only Zuul. There are actually, there's another open-source project named Zuul too, so boy, how many CI/CD tools are out there? We've got two different, unrelated, projects with the same name. John, you look at communities, you look at foundations, if this isn't the core knitting of OpenStack, what is their role vis-a-vis the cloud native and how do they compare to say, the big player in this space is Linux Foundation which includes CNCF. >> That's a good one. I mean, in some sense like all organic things, things are either growing or shrinking. Just growing or dying. On the other hand, in technology, nothing ever truly dies. I think the project seems mature and healthy and it's being used. The Foundation is global in scope and continues to run this. I do wonder about community identity and what it means to be an OpenStack member. It's very community-oriented, but what's at the nut of it here if we're really part of this cloud-native ecosystem. CNCF, you know, it's part of Linux Foundation, all these different foundations, but CNCF, on the other hand, is kind of a grab-bag of technology, so I'm not sure what it means to be a member of CNCF either. I think both of these foundations will continue to go forward with slightly different identities. I think for the community as a whole, the industry as a whole, they are talking and they better be talking, and it's good that they're talking now and working better together. >> Yeah, great discussion we had with Lisa-Marie Namphy who is an OpenStack Ambassador. She holds the meat up in Silicon Valley and when she positions it, it's about cloud-native and its about all these things. So like, Kubernetes is front and center whereas some of the OpenStack people are saying, "Oh no, no, we need to talk more about OpenStack." That's still the dynamic here was, "Oh, we go great together." Well, sometimes thou dost protest too much. Kubranetes doesn't need OpenStack, OpenStack absolutely must be able to play in this Container, cloud-native Kubranetes world. There's lots of other places we can learn about Kubranetes. It is an interesting dynamic that have been sorting out, but it is not a zero-sum game. There's absolutely lots, then we have, I actually was real impressed how many customers we got to speak with on the air this time. Nice with three days of programming, we had a little bit of flexibility, and not just people that were on the keynote stage. Not just people that have been coming for years, but a few of the interviews we had are relatively new. Not somebody that have been on since very early in the alphabet, now we're at queens. >> Right. >> Anything more from the customers or that Container, Kubranetes dynamic that you want to cover? >> Sure, well I mean just that, you know, Containers at least, Containers are everywhere here. So, I think that kind of question has been resolved in some sense. It was a little more contentious last year than this year. I'm actually more bullish on OpenStack as a utility project, after this week, than before. I think I can constantly look people in the eye and say that. The interesting thing for me though, coming from Silicon Valley, is you're so used to thinking about VCs and growth, and new startups, and where's the cutting edge that it's kind of hard to talk about this, maybe this open source business model where the customer basis is finite. It's not growing at 100% a year. Sometimes the press has a hard time covering that. Analysts have a hard time covering that. And if you wanted to give advice to somebody to get into OpenStack, I'm not sure who should if they're not in it already, there's definitely defined use cases, but I think maybe those people have already self-identified. >> Alright, so yeah, the last thing I wanted to mention is yeah. Big thank you to our sponsors to help get us here. The OpenStack Foundation, really supportive of us for years. Six years of us covering it. Our headline sponsor, Red Hat, had some great customers. Talked about this piece, and kind of we talk about it's practically Red Hat month on theCUBE for John with Red Hat Summit and OpenStack. Canonical, Contron, Nuage Networks, all helping us to be able to bring this content to you. Be sure to check out theCUBE.net for all the coverage in the past as well as where we'll be. Hit John Troyer, J. Troyer, on Twitter or myself, Stu, on Twitter if you ever have any questions, people we should be talking to, viewpoints, whether you agree or disagree with what we're talking about. Big thanks to all of our crew here. Thank you to the wonderful people of Vancouver for being so welcoming of this event and of all of us. Check out all the interviews. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (soft upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada. It's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program two CUBE alums. We have Alan Clark, who's the board chair of the OpenStack Foundation and in the CTO office of SUSE. >> Yep, thank you. >> Thanks for joining us again. It's been a few years. >> It's been a while, I appreciate being back. >> And Lew Tucker, the vice chair of the OpenStack Foundation and vice president and CTO of Cisco. Lew, it's been weeks. >> Exactly right. >> All right. >> I've become a regular here. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, first of all, John Furrier sent his regard. He wishes he was here, you know. John's always like come on Lew and I, everybody, we were talking about when this Kubernetes thing started and all the conferences, so it's been a pleasure for us to be here. Six years now at this show, as well as some of the remote days and other things there. It's been fun to watch the progressions of-- >> Isn't it amazing how far we've come? >> Yeah, absolutely. Here's my first question for you, Alan. On the one hand, I want you to talk about how far we've gone. But the other thing is, people, when they learn about something, whenever they first learn about it tends to fossilize in their head, this is what it is and always will be. So I think most people know that this isn't the Amazon killer or you know it's free VMware. That we talked about years ago. Bring us a little bit of that journey. >> Well, so, you know, it started with the basic compute storage and as we've watched open-source grow and adoption of open-source grow, the demands on services grow. We're in this transformation period where everything's growing and changing very rapidly. Open-source is driving that. OpenStack could not stay static. When it started, it solved a need, but the needs continued to grow and continued to change. So it's not surprising at all that OpenStack has grown and changed and will continue to grow and change. >> So Lew, it's been fascinating for me, you know. I've worked with and all these things with Cisco and various pieces for my entire career. You're here wearing the OpenStack @ Cisco shirt. And Cisco's journey really did through that to digital transformation themselves. When I talked to Rowan at Cisco Live Barcelona, the future of Cisco is as a software company. So, help set OpenStack into that kind of broader picture. >> Sure, I think one of the aspects of that is that we're seeing now it is becoming this multi-cloud world. And that we see all of our customers are running in the public cloud. They have their own private data centers. And what they're looking for is they want their whole development model and everything else to now become targeted towards that multi-cloud world. They're going to do services in the public cloud, they still have their private data center. OpenStack is a place for them to actually meet and run all their services 'cause now you can build your environment within your data center that makes it look very much like your public cloud, so your developers don't have two completely different mindsets. They have the same one, it's extracting resources on demand. And that one, we're putting on top of that other newer technology that's coming, such as Kubernetes. We've got a real consistency between those environments. >> Yeah, please Alan. >> I was going to say, it enables you to leverage your existing infrastructure so you don't want to make them, particularly those SUSE's customers, they don't want us to come in and say throw everything away, start afresh right? But at the same time, you've got to be able to embrace what's new and what's coming. We're talking about many new technologies here in OpenStack Summit today right? Containers and all sorts of stuff. A lot of those things are still very new to our customers and they're preparing for that. As Lew said, we're building that infrastructure. >> One of the things, as I'm thinking about it, some people look at, they look at codec containers and some of these pieces outside of the OpenStack project and they're like, well what's the Foundation doing? But I believe it should be framed, and please, please, I would love your insight on this, in that multi-cloud discussion because this is, it can't just be, well, this is how you build private. It needs to be, this is how you live in this multi-cloud environment. >> That's why I think, you're beginning to see us talk about open infrastructure. And this is using open-source software to use software to manage your infrastructure and build it out instead of configuration, cabling, having guys going out, plugging in, unplugging network ports and whatever. We want software and automations to do all that, so OpenStack is one of the cloud platforms. But these other projects are now coming into the Foundation, which also expand that notion of open infrastructure, and that's why we're seeing these projects expand. >> Lew's exactly right and it goes beyond that. Back in 2017, early 2017, we recognized, as a board, that it's not going to be just about the projects within OpenStack. We have to embrace our adjacent communities and embrace those technologies. So that's why you're hearing a lot about Kubernetes and containers and networking and all sorts of projects that are not necessarily being done within OpenStack but you're seeing how we're collaborating with all those other communities. >> And codec is a perfect example of that. Codec containers came out of those clear containers. It's now combining the best of both worlds, 'cause now you get the speed of containers bringing up, but you get the security and isolation of virtual machines. That's important in the OpenStack community, in our world, because that's what we want out of our clouds. >> Well you both have just mentioned community a few times. I saw one thing coming in to this conference, I'm so impressed by the prominence of community. It's up on stage from the first minutes of the first keynote. People, the call to action, the pleas, for the folks, some of us have been here years and years, for the new folks, please come meet us right? That's really inviting, it's very clear that this is a community. >> Yeah I was surprised, actually, 'cause we saw it when we were asked when up on stage how many people were here for the first time? More than half the audience raised their hand. >> Alan: I was surprised by that as well. >> That was the real surprise. And at the same time, we're seeing, increasingly, users of OpenStack coming in as opposed the people who are in core projects. We're seeing Progressive insurance coming in. We're seeing Adobe Marketing Cloud having over 100,000 cores running OpenStack. That's in addition to what we've had with Walmart and others so the real users are coming. So our communities, not just the developers but the users of OpenStack and the operators. >> That's always an interesting intention for an open-source project right. You have the open-source contributors, and then you have the users and operators. But here at the show right? All of these different technology tracks. Part of community is identity. And so, as the technical work has been split-off, and is actually at another event, these are the users. But it does, with all these other technology conversations, I wonder what the core identity of, I'm an OpenStack member, like what does that end up meaning in a world of open infrastructure? if the projects, if the OpenStack itself is more mature, and as we get up the letters of the alphabet towards Z, How do you all want to steer what it means to be a member of the OpenStack community. >> We met on Sunday as a joint leadership. So we had, it wasn't just a board meeting, it was a meeting with the technical committee, it was a meeting with the user committee. So we're very much pushing to make sure we have those high interactions, that the use cases are getting translated into requirements and getting translated into blueprints and so forth. We're working very, very hard to make sure we have that communication open. And I think one of the things that sets the OpenStack community apart is what we call our Four Opens. We base everything on our Four Opens and one of those is communication, transparency and communication. And that's what people are finding enticing. And one of the big reasons is I think they're coming to OpenStack to do that innovation and collaboration. >> We've seen the same thing with Linux, for example. Linux is no longer just the operating system when people think about the Linux community. Linux community is the operating system and then all of these other projects associated with them. That's the same thing that we're seeing with OpenStack. That's why we're continuing to see, wherever there's a need as people are deploying OpenStack and operating it and running it, all of these other open-source components are coming into it because that's what they really were running, that conglomerate of projects around it. >> Certainly, the hype cycle, and maybe Linux went through it's own hype cycle, back in the day and I'm from Silicon Valley. I think the hype cycle outside the community and what's actually happening on the ground here actually are meshed quite well. What I saw this week, like you said, real users, big users, infrastructure built into every bank, transport, telecom in the world. That's a global necessary part of the infrastructure of our planet. So outside of investment, things like that-- >> Well I hope you can help us get the message out. Because that is, a major thing that we see and we experience the conf, people who are not here. They still, then maybe look at OpenStack the way it was, maybe, four years ago, and it was difficult to deploy, and people were struggling with it, and there was a lot of innovation happening at a very, very fast rate. Well now, it's proven, it's sort of industrial grade, it's being deployed at a very large scale across many, many industries. >> Well it's interesting. Remember, Lew, when we were talking about ethernet fabrics. We would talk about some of SDN and some of these big things. Well, look sometimes these things are over-hyped. It's like, well, there's a certain class of the market who absolutely needs this. If I'm at Telco, and I sat here a couple of years ago, and was like, okay, is it 20 or 50 companies in the world that it is going to be absolutely majorly transformative for them and that's hugely important. If I'm a mid-sized enterprise, I'm still not sure how much I'm caring about what's happening here, no offense, I'd love to hear some points there. But what it is and what it isn't with targets, absolutely, there are massive, massive clouds. Go to China, absolutely. You hear a lot about OpenStack here. Coming across the US, I don't hear a lot about it. We've known that for years. But I've talked to cloud provider in Australia, we've talked to Europeans that the @mail who's the provider for emails for certain providers around the world. It's kind of like okay, what part of the market and how do we make sure we target that because otherwise, it's this megaphone of yeah, OpenStack, well I'm not sure that was for me. >> So, yeah, what's your thought? >> We're seeing a lot of huge variety of implementations, users that are deploying OpenStack. And yeah we always think about the great big ones right? I love CERN, we love the Walmarts. We love China Mobiles, because they're huge, great examples. But I have to say we're actually seeing a whole range of deployments. They don't get the visibility 'cause they're small. Everybody goes, oh you're running on three machines or 10 machines, okay, right? Talk to me when you're the size of CERN. But that's not the case, we're seeing this whole range of deployments. They probably don't get much visibility, but they're just as important. So there's tons of use cases out there. There's tons of use cases published out there and we're seeing it. >> One of the interesting use cases with a different scale has been that edge discussion. I need a very small-- >> In fact that's a very pointed example, because they've had a ton of discussion because of that variety of needs. You get the telcos with their large-scale needs, but you've also got, you know, everybody else. >> It's OpenStack sitting at the bottom of a telephone pole. On a little blade with something embedded. >> In a retail store. >> It's in a retail store. >> Or in a coffee shop. >> Yeah. >> So this is really where we recognizing over and over again we go through these transitions that it used to be, even the fixed devices out of the edge. To change that, you have to replace that device. Instead, we want automation and we want software to do it. That's why OpenStack, moving to the edge, where it's a smaller device, much more capability, but it still computes storage and networking. And you want to have virtualized applications there so you can upgrade that, you can add new services without sending a truck out to replace that. >> Moving forward, do we expect to see more interaction between the Foundation itself and other foundations and open-source projects? And what might that look like? >> It depends on the community. It really does, we definitely have communications from at the board level from board-to-board between adjacent communities. It happens at the grassroots level, from, what we call SIGs or work groups with SIGs and work groups from those adjacent communities. >> I happen to sit on three boards, which is the OpenStack board the CNCF board, Cloud Foundry. And so what we're also seeing, though, now. For example, running Kubernetes, we just have now the cloud provider, which, OpenStack, being a cloud provider for Kubernetes similar in the open way that Amazon had the cloud provider for Kubernetes or Google is the cloud provider. So that now we're seeing the communities working together 'cause that's what our customers want. >> And now it's all driven by SIGs. >> The special interest groups, both sides getting together and saying, how do we make this happen? >> How do we make this happen? >> All right. One of the things you look at, there's a lot going on at the show. There's the OpenDev activity, there's a container track, there's an edge track. Sometimes, you know, where it gets a little unfocused, it's like let's talk about all the adjacencies, wait what about the core? I'd love to get your final takeaways, key things you've seen at the show, takeaways you want people to have when they think about OpenStack the show and OpenStack the Foundation. >> From my point of view it actually is back to where we started the conversation, is these users that are now coming out and saying, "I've been running OpenStack for the last three years, "now we're up to 100,000 or 200,000 cores." That shows the real adoption and those are the new operators. You don't think of Walmart or Progressive as being a service provider but they're delivering their service through the internet and they need a cloud platform in which to do that. So that's one part that I find particularly exciting. >> I totally agree with Lew. The one piece I would add is I think we've proven that it's the right infrastructure for the technology of the future, right? That's why we're able to have these additional discussions around edge and additional container technologies and Zuul with containers testing and deployment. It fits right in, so it's not a distraction. It's an addition to our infrastructure. >> I think the idea around, and that's why we actually broke up into these different tracks and had different keynotes around containers and around edge because those are primary use cases now. Two years ago when I think we were talking here, and like NFV and all the telcos were, and now that has succeeded because almost all the NFV deployments now are based on OpenStack. Now we're seeing it go to containers and edge, which are more application specific deployments. >> I'd love for you to connect the dots for us from the NFV stuff we were talking about a couple of years ago to the breadth of edge. There is no edge, it depends on who you are as to what the edge is, kind of like cloud was a few years ago. >> I mean, we actually have a white paper. If you go to OpenStack.org or just Google OpenStack edge white paper, I think you'll see that there are a variety of cases that are from manufacturing, retail, telco, I saw even space, remote driving vehicles and everything else like that. It's where latency really matters. So that we know that cloud computing is the fastest way to deploy and maintain, upgrade new applications, virtualize applications on a cloud. It's unfortunately too far away from many the places that have much more real-time characteristics. So if you're under 40 milliseconds or whatever, or you want to get something done in a VR environment or whatever, under five milliseconds, you can't go back to the cloud. It also, if you have an application, for example, a security monitoring application, whatever. 99% of the time, the video frames are the same and they're not interesting, don't push all that information back into the central cloud. Process it locally, now when you see frames that are changing, or whatever, you only use the bandwidth and the storage in the central cloud. So we're seeing this relationship between what do you want computed at the edge and how much computing can you do as we get more powerful there and then what do you want back in the centralized data centers. >> Daniel: While you simplify the management. >> Exactly right. >> Orchestration, policy. >> But you still need the automation, you need it to be virtualized, you need it to be managed in that way, so you can upgrade it. >> Alan Clark, Lew Tucker, always a pleasure to catch up. >> Thank you, yeah, >> Thank you so much for joining us. >> It's good to be here. >> John Troyer and I will be back with lots more coverage from OpenStack Summit 2018 here in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada. It's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and my cohost John Troyer and you're watching theCUBE, the worldwide leader in tech coverage and this is exclusive coverage from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Usually this time of year it is a little bit overcast, but for the second time the OpenStack Summit has been here, the sun is shining. It has been gorgeous weather but we are in here really digging in and understanding it One of the people I have gotten to know through this community especially, is our wrap up guest today, Sean Michael Kerner, who is a senior editor with eWeek, amongst other bi-lines that you have. Pleasure to see you. >> Great, good seeing you too Stu. >> Alright, so we let you keep on the Toronto Bluejays hat >> Thank you, there we go. >> We have had quite a few Canadians on our program here. >> Well, seeing as how you're here in Canada, it's not all that surprising. >> It's lovely. They have you working on Victoria Day. >> Yeah, that's unfortunate but I will take Memorial Day off in a week, so it works out. >> Excellent. So Sean, for our audience that might not know you, give us a little bit about your background. You've been to umpteen of these shows. >> Sure. I have been with the same publication roughly, I guess 15-16 years at this point. I've been writing before there was cloud, core living and Opensource stuff, networking. And then through the magic of technology, I shifted a little bit to security, which is a core focus for me. I have been to every OpenStack Summit since the San Diego Summit, I guess, 2011. Somebody can correct me afterwards. I did miss the Sydney Summit for various reasons, but yeah, I've been to a bunch of these things, so interesting to see how things have shifted over the years from nothing to certain heights to where we are now. >> Alright, so bring us up to that, as to where we are now. Attendance is down a little bit. They haven't been talking a lot about it but quality I guess is here. Sessions, they've broadened down a bit of the scope. We have been digging into it, but want to get your take so far. >> Yeah, well it's like anything else, there are standard hype cycles, as it were and there's a trough of disillusionment. I wouldn't call this a trough of disillusionment, but when you get to a certain plateau, people just, there'sn't as much interest. In the early days, I remember the San Diego Summit I went to. They didn't schedule it properly. They didn't know how many people they were going to have, and they had to line up around the corner and stuff. That was six years ago, but that is when OpenStack was new. There was no such thing as the Foundation, and everyone was trying to figure out what was what. And, there was no clue at this point. Cloud is a well understood thing. There are competitive efforts or complimentary efforts, as the Foundation would probably like to put it; whether it's CNCF, there's the public cloud and it's different. There is, with all respect to the OpenStack Foundation and its member projects, there's not as much excitement. This in now a stable, mature ecosystem and because of that, I don't think there's as much of a draw. When something is brand new and shiny, you get more of a draw. If they would have put the name Blockchain somewhere, maybe, maybe they would have had a few more. They put Kubernetes in there, which is fine, but no machine learning or artificial intelligence quite yet, though that's a topic somewhere in there too. >> Yeah, John, you've been making a lot of comments this week talking about we've matured and the lower layer pieces just work a bit more. Give us your take about that. >> Sure. That's the way it seems. There wasn't a whole lot of talk about the release, news release, and all the different components, even the keynotes. But, the people we have talked to, both on the vendor and the customer side, they have working production OpenStack environments. They're very large. They require very few admins. They work. They're embedded in telecom and banking, et cetera. It's here and it's working. >> Yeah, that's so something that happened, maybe three cycles ago at this point, because they used to have the release the same time as the Summit and the Design Summit. It was together, so, there was essentially a celebration of the release. People would talk about the release and then they desegrigated that. I think that took a lot of steam out of the reason why you got developers to attend. So, when you don't have the Design Summit, there's this separate open endeavor, there's the forum, I don't quite understand how that works here now. There isn't as much momentum. Yeah, I agree with you. There has been very little talk about Queens. In each of the project update sessions I have been to, and I have been to a couple, there has always been a slight on Rocky, what's coming. I think we are on the second milestone of Rocky, at this point, so there's some development, but at this point it is incremental featurettes. There is no whiz bang. OK, we're going to have flying cars, you know send a Tesla to outer space kind of Earth shattering kind of news, literally, because that's not where it's at. It's just incremental tuck in features in stability and that kind of thing. >> Alright, you talk space and thinks like that and it brings to mind a certain attendee of the program that has actually been to outer space and maybe one of the more notable moments of the show so far. Give us your take on Mr. Shuttleworth. >> Well, I'm a big fan of Mr. Shuttleworth, top to bottom. Hey Mark. Big fan, always have been. He has his own opinion on things of course. Usually in a keynote you don't tend to take direct aim at competitors and he chose to do that. It made some people a little uncomfortable. I happened to be sitting in the front row, where I like to sit, and there was some Red Hat people, and there were some frantic emails going back and forth. And people were trying to see what was going on et cetera. I think, for me, a little bit of drama is okay. You guys go to more shows than I do, and sometimes you get these kind of sales kind of things. But in an open community, there's almost an unwritten rule, which perhaps will be written after this conference, that whether or not everybody is a business competitor or not, is that this is neutral territory as it were and everybody is kind of friendly. In the exhibit hall, you can say this and that, we are better, whatever, but on the stage you don't necessarily do that, so there was some drama there. Some of my peers wrote about that and I will be writing about it as well. It's a, I prefer to write about technology and not necessarily drama. Whether somebody is faster, better, stronger than others, you let the number prove them out. When we talk about Opensource, Opensource Innovation without Canonical, there probably wouldn't have been an OpenStack. All the initial OpenStack reference and limitations are on Canonical. They got a number of large public clouds, as does Red Hat. I think they both have their tactical merits and I'm sure on some respects Red Hat's better and on some respects Canonical is better, but him standing up there and beating on the competition was something that across the 13 summits I have been I have never seen before. One guy I talked to my first OpenStack Summit was in San Diego and the CTO of VMware at the time came up to, VMware was not an OpenStack contributor at the time, they were thinking about it, and he was fielding questions about how it was competitive or not and he was still complimentary. So there has always been that kind of thing. So, a little bit of an interesting shift, a little bit of drama, and gives this show something memorable, because you and I and others will be able to talk about this five years from now, et cetera. >> You talked about something you would write up. I mean part of your job is to take things back to the readers at eWeek. >> Yeah. >> What are the things, highlights you're going to be covering? >> The highlights for me, Stu and I talked about this at one point off the camera, this is not an OpenStack Summit necessarily, they're calling it Open Infrastructure. I almost thought that they would change, we almost thought that they would change the name of the entire organization to the Open Infrastructure Foundation. That whole shift, and I know the foundation has been talking about that since Sydney last year, that they're going to shift to that, but, that's the take away. The platform itself is not the only thing. Enabling the open infrastructure is nice. They're going to try and play well and where it fits within the whole stack. That gets very confusing because talking about collaboration is all fine and nice, but that is not necessarily news. That is how the hot dog is made and that's nice. But, people want to know what's in that dog and how it is going to work. I think it's a tougher show for me to cover than it has been in past years, because there has been less news. There's no new release. There was Kata 1.0 release and there was the Zuul project coming out on its own. Zuul project, they said it was 3.0, it was actually March was Zuul 3.03. Kata Container project, okay, interesting, we'll see how it goes. But a tougher project, tougher event for me to cover for that reason. Collaboration is all fine and nice. But, the CNCF CloudNativeCon KubeCon event two weeks ago, or three weeks ago, had a little bit more news and a lot it's same kind of issues come up here. So, long winded answer, tough to come up with lessons learned out of this, other than everyone wants to be friends, well some people want to be. And, collaboration is the way forward. But that is not necessarily a new message. >> When I think about Kubernetes, we are talking about the multi cloud world and that's still, the last few years, where it's been. Where does OpenStack really fit in that multi cloud world? One of the things I have been a little disappointed actually, is most of the time, when I'm having a conversation, it's almost the, yeah, there's public cloud, but we are going to claw things back and I need it for governments, and I need all of these other things. When I talk to customers, it is I'm going to choose what I put in my data center. I'm going to choose how I use probably multiple public cloud finders. It is not an anti-public cloud message, and it feels a little bit on the anti-public cloud mass. I want to work with what you're hearing when you >> talk to users? >> When I talk to users, vast majority of people, unless it's something, where there's regulatory issues or certain legacy issues or private cloud, public cloud period. The private cloud idea is gone or mostly gone. When I think about private clouds, it's really VmWare. We have virtualized instances that sitting there. >> What's OpenStack? >> OpenStack is fine, but how many are running OpenStack as a private cloud premise? >> Yeah, so what's OpenStack then? >> When I think of OpenStack, Oracles public cloud. Oracle is not here surprisingly. Oracle's public cloud, Larry Ellison, who I know you guys have spoken to more than once on theCUBE at various points on Oracle World and other things. Oracle's public cloud, they want to compete against AWS. That's all. OpenStack IBM cloud, all OpenStack. The various big providers out of China are OpenStack based. OEH is here. So that's where it fits in is that underlying infrastructure layer. Walmart uses it. Bestbuy, all these other places, Comcast, et cetera; ATT. But individual enterprises, not so much. I have a hard time finding individual enterprises that will tell me we are running our own private cloud as OpenStack. They will tell me they're running VmWare, they will tell me they're running REV or even some flavor of Citrix end server, but not a private cloud. They may have some kind of instances and they will burst out, but it's not, I don't think private cloud for mid tier enterprises ever took off the way some people thought five years ago. >> That's interesting. Let's go meta for a second. You talked about things you do and don't write about, you don't necessarily write the VC's are not here necessarily, but you don't write about necessarily financial stuff. >> Sometimes. There was actually at the Portland summit, I did a panel with press and analysts at the time and afterwards there might have been four different VC's that came up to me and asked me what I thought about different companies. They were looking at different things where they would invest. And I remember, we looked at the board and one VC who shall remain nameless, and I said you know what, we'll look at this board with all these companies and five years from now, three quarters of them will not be here. I think I was probably wrong because it is more than that. There are so many. I wrote a story, I don't remember the exact name of it, but I wrote a story not that long ago about OpenStack deadpool. There are so, multiple companies that raised funding that disappeared. In the networking space, there were things like Plumgrid, they mminorly acquired for assets by Vmware, if I'm not mistaken. There was Pivotal, Joshua McKenzie, one of the co-founders of OpenStack itself, got acquired by Cisco. But they would have collapsed perhaps otherwise. Nebula Computing is perhaps, it still shocks me. They raised whatever it was 50 odd million, someone will correct me afterward. Chris Kemp, CTO of NASA who helped start it. Gone. So, there has been tremendous consolidation. I think when VC's lose money, they lose interest really fast. The other thing you have to think about, from the VC side, they don't write too much on the financial. My good friend Fredrick, who didn't make it, Where are you, Fredrick, where are you? Does more on that funding side. But has there been a big exit for an OpenStack company? Not really, not really. And without that kind of thing, without that precedence it's a tough thing, especially for a market that is now eight years old, give or take. >> Even the exits that had a decent exit, you know that got bought into the say IBM's, Cisco's of the world, and when you look a couple of years later, there's not much left of those organizations. >> Yeah. It's also really hard. People really don't want to compete against, well, some people want to compete against AWS. But, if you're going to try to go toe to toe with them, it's a challenge. >> Okay, so what brings you back here every year? You're speaking at the show. You're talking to people. >> What brings me back here is regardless of the fact that momentum has probably shifted, it's not in that really hype stage, OpenStack's core infrastructure, literally, core infrastructure that runs important assets. Internet assets, whether it certain public cloud vendors, large Fortune 500 companies, or otherwise. So it's an important piece of the stack, whether it's in the hype cycle or not, so that brings me back, because it's important. It brings me back because I have a vested interest. I have written so much about it so I'm curious to see how it continues to evolve. Specifically, I'm speaking here on Thursday doing a panel on defending Cloud Counsel Security as a core competence, a core interest for me. With all these OpenStack assets out there, how they're defended or not is a critical interest. In the modern world, cyber attacks are a given. Everybody should assume they're always under a constant state of attack and how that security works is a core area of interest and why I will keep coming back. I will also keep coming back because I expect there to be another shift. I don't think we have heard the end of the OpenStack story yet. I think the shift towards open infrastructure will evolve a little bit and will come to an interesting conclusion. >> Alright, last thing is what's your favorite question you're asking at this show. Any final things you want to ask us as we wrap? >> Yeah, my favorite, well, I want to ask you guys, what the most interesting answer you got from all the great people you interviewed because I'm sure some of it was negative and you got mostly positive as well. >> Well, we aren't used to answering the questions Stu. >> I'm used to being on the other side here, right. >> Well, I do say we got a lot of stuff about some interesting and juicy cases, like I say, the practitioners I talked to were real. I was always impressed by how few administrators it takes to run a huge OpenStack based cloud once it's set up. I think that's something interesting to me. You asked some folks about a public cloud a lot. >> Yeah, so it has been interesting. For me, it's, we've reached that certain maturity level. I was looking at technology. What's kind of the watermark that this is going to come to? We had said years ago, I don't think you're going to have somebody selling a billion dollars worth of distribution on OpenStack. So, that story with how Kubernetes and Containers and everything fits in, OpenStack is part of the picture, and it might not be the most exciting thing, but then again, if you watch Linux as long as most of us have, Red Hat took a really long time to get a billion dollars and it was much more than just Linux that got them there. This still has the opportunity to be tooling inside the environment. We have talked to a number of users that use it. It's in there. It's not that the flagpole, we're an OpenStack company anymore because there really aren't many companies saying that that is the core of their mission, but that is still an important piece of the overall fabric of what we are covering. >> Exactly right. >> Alright, we on that note, Sean Michael Kerner, we really appreciate you joining us. Please support good technology journalism because it is people like him that help us understand the technology. I read his stuff all the time and always love chatting with him off the record and dragged him on here and Fredrick from Techron Show we are disappointed you could not join us, but we'll get you next time. For Jon Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, be sure to join us for the third day tomorrow of three days of wall to wall live coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. And once again, thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)