>> (Narrator) Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's The Cube, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its Ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer and you're watching The Cube, worldwide leader in tech coverage, and this is OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Happy to welcome to the program, first-time guest Melvin Hillsman, who's the governance board member of OpenLab, which we got to hear about in the keynote on Monday. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> Alright, so Melvin, we were given, start us off with a little bit about your background, what brought you to the OpenStack community, and we'll go from there. >> Sure, yeah, so my background is in Linux system administration and my getting involved in OpenStack was more or less seeing the writing on the wall as it relates to virtualization and wanting to get an early start in understanding how things would pan out over the course of some years. So I probably started OpenStack maybe three or four so years ago. I was probably later to the party than I wanted to be, but through that process, started working at Rackspace first and that's how I really got more involved into OpenStack in particular. >> Yeah, you made a comment, though. The writing on the wall for virtualization. Explained that for a sec. >> So for me, I was at a shared hosting company and we weren't virtualizin' anything. We were using traditional servers, dedicated servers, installing hundreds of customers on those servers. And so, at one point, what we started doing was we would take a dedicated server, we would create a virtual machine on it, but we would use most of the resources of that dedicated server, and so what allowed that shared hosting was to tear stuff down and recreate it, but it was very manual process and so, of course, the infrastructure service and orchestration around that OpenStack was becoming the de facto standard and way of doing it, and so I didn't want to try to learn manually, or fix something up internally, I wanted to go where OpenStack was being highly developed a lot and people working on it in their day to day jobs, which is why I went to Rackspace. >> Okay, one of the things we look at, this is a community here, so it takes people from lots of different backgrounds, and some of them do it on their spare time, some of them are paid by larger companies to participate, so to tell us about OpenLab, itself, and how your company participates there. >> Sure, so I started, well I'm at Huawei now, but I was at Rackspace and that's kind of how I got more involved in the community and there I started working on testing things above the OpenStack ecosystem, so things that people want to build on top of OpenStack and during that process Huawei reached out to me and was like hey you know you're doing a great job here, and I was like yeah I would love to come and explore more of how we can increase this activity in the community at large. And so Oakland Lab was essentially born out of that, which the OpenStack community, they deliver the OpenStack API's, and they kind of stop there, you know. Everything above that is, you do that on your own, more or less, and so also, as a chair of the user committee, again, just being more concerned about the people who are using stuff, OpenLab was able, was available to facilitate me having access to hardware and access to people who are using things outside OverStack in use cases, et cetera, where we want to test out more integrated tools working with OpenStack and different versions of OpenStack. And so that's essentially what OpenLab is-- >> So in OpenLab, projects come together and it's basically, it's an Interop, boy, in the networking world, they've had the Interop plug and plug fest for a long time, but, in essence, projects come together and you integrate them and start, you invite them in and they integrate and start to test them. Starting with, I mean, I see, for this release, Terraform and Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so a lot of people want to to use Kubernetes, right? And as an OpenStack operator you essentially, you don't really want to go and learn all the bits of Kubernetes, necessarily, and so, but you want to use Kubernetes and you want to work seamlessly with OpenStack and you want to use the API's that you're used to using with OpenStack and so we work very heavily on the external cloud provider for OpenStack, enabling Cinder V3 for containers that you're spinning up in Kubernetes, so that they have seamless integration, you don't have to try to attach your volumes, they are automatically attached. You don't have to figure out what your load balancing is going to to look like. You use Octavia, which is load balancing service for OpenStack, very tightly integrated and things, you know, as you spin things up, they work as you as you would expect and so then all the other legacy applications and all the things you're used to doing with OpenStack, you bring on Kubernetes and you essentially do things the way you've been doing them before, with just an additional layer. >> Yeah, now I wonder if you can talk a little bit about the providers and the users, you know how do they get engaged, to and give us a little flavor around those. >> Yeah, so you get engaged, you go to OpenLabtesting.org and there's two options. One, is you can test out your applications and tools, by clicking get started, you fill that out. And what's great about open lab is that we actually reach out and we talk with you, we consult with you, per se, because we have a lot of variation in hardware that's available to us and so we want to figure out the right hardware that you need in order to do the tests that you want, so that we can get the output as it relates to that integration that will, of course, educate and inform the community at large of whether or not it's working and been validated. And, again, so as a person who wants to support OpenLab or for a provider, for example, who wants to support OpenLab, you click on the support OpenLab link, you fill out a form and you tell us you know, do you want to provide more infrastructure, do you want to talk with us about how clouds are being architected, integrations are being architected, things that you're seeing in the open source use cases that may not be getting the testing that they need and you're willing to work with engineers from other companies around that, so individual testers and then companies who may bring a number of testers together around a particular use case. >> Now, you're starting to publish some of the results of Interop testing and things like that. How is open lab, how does it produce its results, is it eventually going to be producing white papers and things like that or dashboards or what's your vision there? >> Yeah, so we produce a very archaic dashboard right now, but we're working with the CNCF to, if you go to CNCF.CI, and they have a very nice dashboard that kind of shows you a number of projects and whether or not they work together. And so it's open source, so what we want to do is work with that team to figure out how do we change the logos and the git repos, to how to driving those red and green, success or failure icons that are there, but they're relevant to the test that we're doing in OpenLab, so yeah. So we definitely want to have a dashboard that's very easy to decipher what tests are failing in or passing. >> Looking forward, what kinds of projects are you most interested in getting involved? >> Right now, very much Kubernetes, of course. We're really focusing on multi architecture, again, as a result of our work with Kubernetes and driving full conformance and multi architecture. That's kind of the wheelhouse at this time. We're open for folks to give us a lot of different use cases, like we were starting to look at some edge stuff, how can we participate there, we're starting looking at FPGA's and GPU's, so a lot different, we don't have a full integration in a lot of different areas, just yet, but we are having those conversations. >> So, actually, I spent a bunch of years, when I worked on the vendor side, living in an Interrupt lab, and the most valuable things were not figuring out what worked, but what broke, so what kind of things, you know, as you're working through this, what learnings back do you share with the community, both the providers and users? Big stumbling blocks that you can help people, give a red flag, or say you know, avoid these type of things. >> Yeah, exactly what you just said. You know, what's good is some of our stuff is geographically dispersed, so we can start to talk about if, what's the latency look like? You may, within that few square miles that you're operating and doing things, it works great, but when I'm sending something across the water how, is your product still moving quickly, is the latency too bad that we can't, I can't create a container over here because it takes too long, so one example of looking at something fail as it relates to that is we're talking with Octavia folks to see, if I spin up a lot of containers am I going to therefore create a lot of load balancers and if I create a lot of load balancers I'm creating a lot of VM's, or am I creating a lot of containers or are things breaking apart, so we need to dig a little bit further to understand what is and is not working with the integrations we're currently working on and then again we're exploring GPV, GPUs just landed more or less, that was a part of the keynote as well, and so now we're talking about, well, let's do some of that testing. The software, the code, is there but is it usable? And so that's one area we want to start playing around with. >> Okay, one of the other things in the keynote's got mentioned was Zul, the CIDT tool, how's that fitting into the OpenLab? >> Yeah, we use Zul as our gating, so what's great about Zul is that you can interac6t with projects from different SCM's, so we have some projects that live in github, some that utilize Garrote, some that utilize gitlab, and Zul has applicability where it can talk to different, it can talk across these different SCM's, and if you have a patch that depends on a patch in another another pod, so a patch on one project in one SCM can depend on a patch in another project, in a different SCM, and so what's great about Zul is that you can say, hey I'm depending on th6at, so before this patch lands, check to make sure this stuff works over there, so if it succeeds there and it's a dependency then you basically confirm that succeeds there and then now I can run the test here, and it passes here as well, so you know that you can use both of those projects together again, in an integration. Does it makes sense? Hopefully I'm making it very clear, the power there with the cross SCM integration. >> Yeah, Melvin, you've had a busy week, here, at the show. Any, you know, interesting things you learned this week or something that you heard from a customer that you thought, oh boy we got to, you know, get this into our lab or a road map or, you know-- >> The ARM story, the multi architecture is, I feel like that's really taking off. We've had discussions with quite a few folks around that, so yeah, that for me, that's the next thing that I think we're really going to concentrate a little bit harder on is, again, figuring out if there are some problems, because mostly it's been just x86, but we need to start exploring what's breaking as we add more to multi architecture. >> Melvin, no shortage of new things to test and play with, and every customer always brings some unique spins on things, so appreciate you giving us the update on OpenLab, thanks so much for joining us. >> You're Welcome. Thanks for having me. >> From John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching The Cube. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman, with my cohost John Troyer, and happy to welcome to the program, fresh off the container keynote, Chris Hodge, who's the senior strategic program manager with the OpenStack Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Oh yeah, thanks so much for having me. >> Alright, so short trip for you, then John's coming from the Bay Area, I'm coming from the east coast. You're coming up from Portland, which is where it was one of the attendees at the Portland OpenStack Summit, they said, "OpenStack has arrived, theCUBE's there." So, shout out to John Furrier and the team who were there early. I've been to all the North America ones since. You've been coming here for quite a while and it's now your job. >> I've been to every OpenStack Summit since then. And to the San Francisco Summit prior to that, so it was, yeah, I've been a regular. >> Okay so for those people that might not know, what's a Foundation member do these days? Other than, you know, you're working on some of the tech, you're giving keynotes, you know, what's a day in the life? >> Yeah, I mean, I mean for me, I feel like I'm really lucky because the OpenStack Foundation, you know, has you know, kind of given me a lot of freedom to go interact with other communities and that's been one of my primary tasks, to go out and work with adjacent communities and really work with them to build integrations between OpenStack and right now, particularly, Kubernetes and the other applications that are being hosted by the CNCF. >> Yeah, so I remember, and I've mentioned it a few times this week, three years ago we were sitting in the other side of the convention center, with theCUBE and it was Docker, Docker, Docker. The container sessions were overflowing and then a year later it was, you know, oh my gosh, Kubernetes. >> Chris: Yeah. (chuckles) >> This wave of, does one overtake the other, how do they fit together, and you know, in the keynotes yesterday and I'm sure your keynote today, talked a lot a bit about you know, the various ways that things fit together, because with open source communities in general and tech overall, it's never binary, it's always, it depends, and there's five different ways you could put things together depending on your needs. So, what are you seeing? >> I mean it's almost, yeah, I mean saying that it's one or the other and that one has to win and the other has to lose is actually kind of, it's kind of silly, because when we talk about Kubernetes and we talk about Docker, we're generally talking about applications. And, you know, and, with Kubernetes, when you're very focused on the applications you want to have existing infrastructure in place. I mean, this is what it's all about. People talk about, "I'm going to run my Kubernetes application "on the cloud, and the cloud has infrastructure." Well, OpenStack is infrastructure. And in fact, it is open source, it's an open source cloud. And so, so for me it feels like it's a very natural match, because you have your open application delivery system and then it integrates incredibly well with an open source cloud and so whether you're looking for a public cloud running on OpenStack or you're hosting a private cloud, you know, to me it's a very natural pairing to say that you have an OpenStack cloud, you have a bunch of integrations into Kubernetes and that the two work together. >> I think this year that that became a lot clearer, both in the keynotes and some of the sessions. The general conversation we've had with folks about the role of Kubernetes or an orchestration or the cloud layer, the application layer, the application deployment layer say, and the infrastructure somebody's got to manage the compute the network storage down here. At least, in this architectural diagram with my hands but, you can also, a couple of demos here showed deploying Kubernetes on bare metal alongside OpenStack, with that as the provider. Can you talk a little bit about that architectural pattern? It makes sense, I think, but then, you know, it's a apparent contradiction, wait a minute so now the Kubernetes is on the bare metal? So talk about that a little bit. >> So, I think, I think one of the ways you can think about resolving the contradiction is OpenStack is a bunch of applications. When you go and you install OpenStack we have all of these microsurfaces that are, some are user facing and some are controlling the architecture underneath. But they're applications and Kubernetes is well-suited for application delivery. So, say that you're starting with bare metal. You're starting with a bare metal cloud. Maybe managed by OpenStack, so you have OpenStack there at the bottom with Ironic, and you're managing your bare metal. You could easily install Kubernetes on that and that would be at your infrastructure layer, so this isn't Kubernetes that you're giving to your users, it's not Kubernetes that you're, you know, making world facing, this is internally for your organization for managing your infrastructure. But, you want OpenStack to provide that cloud infrastructure to all of your users. And since OpenStack is a big application with a lot of moving parts, Kubernetes actually becomes a very powerful tool, or any other container orchestration scheme becomes a very powerful tool for saying that you drop OpenStack on top of that and then all of a sudden you have a public cloud that's available for, you know, for the users within your organization, or you could be running a public cloud and providing those services for other people. And then suddenly that becomes a great platform for hosting Kubernetes applications on, and so the layers kind of interleave with one another. But even if you're not interested in that. Let's say you're running Kubernetes as bare metal and you're just, you want to have Kubernetes here providing some things. There's still things that OpenStack provides that you may already have existing in your infrastructure. >> Kubernetes kind of wants, it wants to access some storage. >> It wants to consume storage for example, and so we have OpenStack Cinder, which right now it supports you know, somewhere between, you know over 70 storage drivers, like these drivers exist and the nice thing about it is... You have one API to access this and we have two drivers within that, two Cinder drivers, you can either choose the, the flex volume storage or the container storage interface, the CSI storage interface. And Cinder just provides that for you. And that means if you have mixed storage within your data center, you put it all behind a Cinder API and you have one interface to your Kubernetes. >> So Chris, I believe that's one of the pieces of I believe it's called the Cloud Provider OpenStack. You talked about in the keynote. Maybe walk us through with that. >> Cloud Provider OpenStack is a project that is hosted within the, within the Kubernetes community. And it's... The owner of that code is the SIG OpenStack community inside of Kubernetes. I'm one of the three leads, one of the three SIG leads of that group and, that code does a number of things. The first is there's a cloud manager interface that is a consistent interface for Kubernetes to access infrastructure information in clouds. So information about a node, when a node joins a system, Kubernetes will know about it. Ways to attach storage, ways to provision load balancers. The cloud manager interface allows Kubernetes to do this on any cloud, whether it be Azure or GCE or Amazon. Also OpenStack. Cloud Provider OpenStack is the specific code that allows us to do that, and in fact we were, OpenStack was one of the first providers that existed in upstream Kubernetes you know, so it's kind of, we've been there since the very beginning, like this has been a, you know, an effort that's happened from the beginning. >> Somewhat non-ironically, right? A lot of that you've talked about, the OpenStack Foundation and this OpenStack Summit, a lot of the things talked about here are not OpenStack per se, the components, they are containers, there's the OpenDev Conference here, colocated. Is there confusion, there doesn't, I'm getting it straight in my head, Is there, was there, did you sense any confusion of folks here or is that, if you're in it you understand what's going on and why all these different threads are flowing together in kind of an open infrastructure conversation. It seems like the community gets it and understand it and is broadened because of it. >> Yeah, I mean, to me I've seen a tremendous shift over the last year in the general understanding of the community of the role all of these different applications play. And I think it's really, it's actually a testament to the success of all of these projects, in particular, we're building open APIs, we're building predictable behavior, and once you have that, and you have many people, many different organizations that are able to provide that, they're all able to communicate with one another and leverage the strengths of the other projects. >> All of a sudden, a standard interface, low and behold, right? A thousand flowers bloom on top. >> You know, it essentially allows you to build new things on top of that, new more interesting things. >> Alright, Chris, any interesting customer stories out of the keynote that we should share with the audience? >> I mean, there are so many fantastic stories that you can talk about, I mean, of course we saw the CERN keynote, where they're running managed Kubernetes on top of OpenStack. They have over 250 Kubernetes clusters doing research that are managed by OpenStack Magnum. I mean that's just, to me that's just tremendous. That this is being used in production, it's being used in science, and it's not just across one cloud, it's across many clouds and, You know, we also have AT&T, which has been working very hard on combining OpenStack and Kubernetes to manage their next generation of, of teleco infrastructure. And so, they've been big drivers along with SK Telecom on using Kubernetes as an infrastructure layer and then putting OpenStack on top of that, and then delivering applications with that. And so those are, you know we, the OpenStack Foundation just published on Monday a new white paper about OpenStack, how OpenStack works with containers and these are just a couple of the case studies that we actually have listed in that white paper. >> Chris, you're at the interface between OpenStack, which has become more mature and more stable, and containers, which, although it is maturing is still a little bit, is moving fast, right? Containers and Kubernetes both, a lot of development. Every summit, a lot of new projects, lot of new ways of installing, lot of new components, lot of new snaps. All sorts of things. What are you looking forward to now over the next year in terms of container maturity and how that's going to help us? >> So... People are talking so much now about security with containers and this is another really exciting thing that's coming out of our work because, you know, during one of the container keynotes, one of the things that was kind of driven home was containers don't contain. But, we're actually, at the OpenStack Foundation, we're kind of taking that on, and we, and my colleague Anne Bertucio has been leading a project, you know, has been community manager for a product called Kata Containers, which is, you know, you could almost call it containers that do contain. So I think that this is going to be really exciting in the next year as we talk more and more about we're building more generic interfaces and allowing all sorts of new approaches to solving complex problems, be it in security, be it in performance, be it in logging and monitoring. And so, I think, so the tools that are coming out of this and you know, creating these abstractions and how people are creatively innovating on top of those is pretty exciting. >> The last thing I'm hoping you can help connect the dots for us on is, when we talk Kubernetes, we're talking about multi-cloud. One of the big problems about Kubernetes, you know, came out of Google from you know, if you just say, "Why would Google do this?" It's like, well, there's that one really big cloud out there and if I don't have some portability and be able to move things, that one cloud might just continue to dominate. So, help connect OpenStack to how it lives in this multi-cloud world. Kubernetes is a piece of that, but you know, maybe, would love your viewpoint. >> Yeah, so. This is happening on so many levels. We see lots of large organizations who want to take back control of the cost of cloud and the cost of their cloud infrastructure and so they're starting to pull away from the big public clouds and invest more in private infrastructure. We see this with companies like eBay, we see it with companies like AT&T and Walmart, where they're investing heavily in OpenStack clouds. So that they have more control over the cost and how their applications are delivered. But you're also seeing this in a lot of... Like especially municipalities outside of the United States, you know, different governments that have data restrictions, restrictions on where data lives and how it's accessed, and we're seeing more governments and more businesses overseas that are turning to OpenStack as a way to have cloud infrastructure that is on their home soil, that you know, kind of meets the requirements that are necessary, you know that are necessary for them. And then kind of the third aspect of all of this is sometimes you just, sometimes you need to have lots of availability across, you know, many clouds. And you can have a private cloud, but possibly, in order to serve your customers, you might need public cloud resources, and federation across, across this, both in OpenStack and Kubernetes is improving at such an incredible pace that it becomes very easy to say that I have two, three, four, five clouds, but we're able to, we're able to combine them all and make them all look like one. >> Alright, well Chris Hodge, we really appreciate the updates on OpenStack and Kubernetes in all the various permutations. >> Yeah, it was great talking about it. This is, I mean this is the work that I love and I'm excited about, and this is, you know, I'm looking forward to it, I have fun with it and I keep looking forward to everything that's coming. >> Awesome, well we love to be able to share these stories, the technologists, the customers and everything going on in the industry. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with more coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (tech music)

>> Narrator: Live from Vancouver, Canada. It's the Cube. Covering OpenStack Summit, North America, 2018. Brought to you by Redhat, the OpenStack foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to the Cube. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer, and your watching the Cube, the worldwide leader in tech coverage. Happy to welcome back back to the program, Arturo Suarez, who is with Canonical, program director. Haven't have him on for a couple of hours, Arturo, thanks for joining me again. >> Thanks for having me. >> Alright and David Safaii who is the CEO of Trilio Data. We introduced your company to our community last year at the show in our backyard in Boston, so, thanks for joining us here in beautiful Vancouver. >> Thanks for having me again, good to see ya. >> Alright so, David, let's start with you. It's you know, a year since we talked to you, you know data management, absolutely, you know, such a hot space. Bring us into that update as to your company, what's happening in OpenStack and lets get into it from there. >> Sure. It's been an exciting year since I seen you last, you know. I think part of it's been the evolution and the maturity of this ecosystem that we're seeing. More business units are now moving production workloads into this environment. So the call to Trilio has really taken place. A lot of the times your seeing these cloud teams having to scramble to find the proper data protection solution. Trilio being a cloud native backup solution, you know, for this environment, its just a logical selection. >> Yeah, its one of those things I scratch my head, maybe you can explain to me, is, remember back in I was like, when we did virtualization, it was like took a little while before we had a good backup, you know, solution for there. When we go to cloud its like, wait, oh wait, lets not forget that there are things like security and backup. Why does it take a little bit while for that to kind of catch up into the market and have good solutions? >> So if you think about it this way, when people start this journey, right, the initial intent a lot of the time is to have some stateless workloads. We know that's not the case. Perception and reality. And your going to see it in the container market as well. So that's kind of the evolution that you see, that's kind of the draw that we see. >> Okay, Arturo, explain to us how Canonical fits. >> So, obviously Canonical powers more OpenStack than anyone else does. So OpenStack foundation survey would like to say it. But that's a fact, that's what I'll write. So, we're happy to partner with Trilio. We've always been very keep to accommodate the ecosystem in our story. Trilio vault matches very well our idea of having better economics as well for the data center. And it opens up OpenStack, not only for the original goal of OpenStack, like the hyper scalers or the scale out applications, right, which are cloud native if you want and are born on OpenStack. And OpenStack is born for them right, for that type of application. But now it opens that to a wide range of existing, I wouldn't call it legacy, but, you know what I mean like old applications that are really not going to be refreshed, you know. You'll only refresh that many applications year after year. 10% of your applications, 15% if you have a good devops team. Those still are suffering lock in from being in that virtualization world, or not even there, right. And with OpenStack and the addition of Trilio as a backup DR solution, just somebody provide what a pet VM needs right. So somebody opens up to a large real state of a data center to be accommodated in OpenStack seamlessly. >> It's great, Chris, here at OpenStack Summit this year, kind of the customers your seeing, someone said to me the other day that, you know the people here this year are people with mortgage to pay. And they meant that in a complimentary way, in that they're not like the cloud astronauts or they're not arguing about the philosophy of what is a true cloud. They actually have business to do. So I don't know, your talking about some of what your seeing here at this show and you know the kinds of people or maybe, you know, who are the folks that are using or kind of folks that are using Trilio today? >> Yeah and I think the conversation has been, the high quality conversations, higher caliber conversation where its a lot of day two conversations that have taken place, so, it's been engaging. People need to act, they need to move. They've got these fabulous clouds that's slicing and dicing, they're expanding in every which way possible. Now they say, alright, we have to codify this. You know the journey to the cloud doesn't have to be painful. And that's one of the great things that Canonicals done well, right. Build, operate, manage - here's your cloud, we're going to stand it up, you know, it's everything you need. Now with Trilio its not "Can I add back up to it?", like fries, it's just not like that. It's adding data protection to codify that and again that's why we're seeing these people start, are coming. They're asking that kind of, they're asking that question. >> Are you mostly talking to folks over in the enterprise space? I mean with OpenStack right, a lot of the conversations in the carrier space, they have some slightly different needs. Or how is that working for you? >> No, it's broadened. I'd say our customer base is everything from manufacturing to receiving financial services all over the world, adopt OpenStack. So, again it goes to the testament of adopting and building much easier than every before and the economics are big benefit. >> In terms of building on top of OpenStack or you know so directly with the APIs. And OpenStack has a number of components all with APIs and component, so how is that relationship been working with Canonical and the state of both Canonical's OpenStack as well as the standard, you know, getting used to the standard parts of the OpenStack stack. >> Yeah so we certify ourselves across the distribution, but you know, part of this is a seamless integration through leveraging juju charms for example. The lifecycle management of that cloud. So whether your going through an upgrade process or staying up a new cloud, Trilio just fits hand and glove with Canonical. >> Yeah at the end of the day APIs are APIs, OpenStack are OpenStack, right. That is very well defined. It's how you build it. When you build it to just take a picture of it and have an OpenStack up and running, or, when you build it to have an OpenStack that's going to be in your data center for ten years, for 20 years, right, that is a credible data center right. So that is our main difference. The OpenStack and the end of the day, the API is just consumable just for us as well as for the other guys, its exactly the same API. We don't modify, not everybody, right, but we do not modify anything from OpenStack. It's pure appstring OpenStack, right, there's no real difference there. >> Okay, what about I think service providers would be key market for this, how does that play in for both of you? >> I mean the service provider market of course is a big adapter of OpenStack and then now your seeing also with NFV environment, the rapid adoption there. It's been an important add to the OpenStack cloud if you think about how do I recover my configurations in that environment, so. >> Exactly and we mentioned before like right, the expansive real estate even in the world of service providers when you move out of the core, right, and they're challenging SLAs, right. So DR is effectively and that data protection as well because the VNFs that their running are effectively managing data that is prone to be protected, specially you know, in countries in Europe for instance, with the GDPR etc., you really need to have accountability of what data is in your data center without, you know, taking into account the economics of having an extra data center there, right. So the DR and data protection elements are key to the cloud strategy of service providers, right. >> What are folks looking at is cross cloud strategies and backup. Like what is the target right, I'm assuming either, cross data center or also up to the public cloud. How are people looking at that? Either one. >> So we see it, as far as the backend store of the target, we really have certified ourselves across any backup target. Within Canonical they're using self storage. If they added benefit of geo replication, right, so the DR story starts to evolve there. So site goes down, you have geo replication, you have Trilio there to spin backup that other site back up again. Relative to the public cloud, you know, as the hybrid world continuously evolves, you know, we're ready for that. We have qualified against S3 for example. But no ones banging down the door just at this moment. I think a lot of people just need to get the blocking and tackling done and leverage really the assets that they have, to make the most out of it, get the ROI there. And then we'll see if the demand evolves. >> So the beauty is to have the choice right, the freedom of choice. Which is what some of the private infrastructure software doesn't allow you to do. Like this is a one thing you can eat today, right. So that freedom of choice, whether you want to put that in a public cloud, if it's security compliant and what not, or you want to have that in another region or replicated somewhere else, another storage backend that is colder and cheaper and you know, so. That freedom of choice is a great asset. >> Arturo, what are you looking forward to in terms of the evolution of OpenStack storage and data capabilities? >> So, OpenStack is already opened up for absolutely everything, right. Storage in fact in OpenStack was, this is my 15th OpenStack, so I've been following it from the very very beginning right. So the storage in OpenStack is actually was the project that was mature first... >> Well I didn't want to start the question off with well, OpenStack storage is kind of done right. But... >> But it is right. At the end of the day when you look at all the existing, more legacy type of a storage filers, already have an integration with OpenStack. OpenStack made a turn few years ago, again, I'm telling my old stories of OpenStack, but when we started doing Cinder. And the Cinder drivers would apply in that to Neutron and the Neutron plugins now for network. But the Cinder drivers actually are a very easy way to plug in literally any other storage solution that you might find out there. And the beauty of it is that you can, you don't have to choose one. You can have many storage back ends in your data center right. So that is there. And then it will be, as we talked before, it be just a decision on the per use cases. Canonical will be part of that. Canonical will have a solution ready for each of those use cases by enabling partners. And obviously there will be some of them that will be more adequate to with the compliance and security terms, right. >> David, I'd love you to follow up on that. So there is the companies that have gone through the alphabet from A through Queens, and have the bumps and bruises. What's it like being a startup, getting into the ecosystem you know more recently. What's the opportunities? >> Yeah, I mean, I think for us the customers are at various points in their journeys right. So we have be able to qualify whether your kilo or your on queens. And we have to be able to deliver a service that you know is rock solid. So that's an onus on us. To deliver all that, make sure it's bullet proof. So it takes a lot of work. But, the community's been great to work with, the customers view us as partners. And they're willing to work with you, which has been fantastic, you know. >> Okay. Want to give you both a final take aways from the event. David you want to start? >> Sure. So as I was saying before I think the conversations been high caliber conversations, right. It's been interesting for us, because if you think about back up and DR, data protection is actually a much broader term and I think it evolves. And I think we're on a great spot for it to evolve even further. We take a workload, a point in time, right, if the conversation becomes about workload mobility inside your cloud, I can move it to any part, and that's some of the conversations that we've had using back up for resource management, right, I want to move tenants from one availability zone to another availability zone. Or I'm standing up a new cloud. That's just part of the by product of backup and recovery. One of the things that we're actually, we're exploring and we'll give you guys a nice showcase of this in Berlin is that we'll be running scanners through our back ups. Doing more with points in time, to give your tenants and your customers the ability to go back to the best last known state, you know it's clean. All the patches, the configurations, the anti-virus type stuff. So this is going to be a great evolution it's going to be a great journey. Having the ability of being a startup gives us the flexibility and we can be nimble, where a legacy data protection has 30 year old code and they don't have that ability. So, it's been great. >> So as you know, following up on what David said, right, the flexibility of having a data protection solution finally on OpenStack, being able to compare and win against all the private cloud infrastructure is a great asset. The fact that OpenStack now you see is ready for prime because it gets less media attention its not shiny anymore it's not that interesting to talk about OpenStack. But everyone needs an OpenStack solution, right. The ecosystem landscape where come from the digital wars back in the day, we're not wasting time right there right. So it's more of a filling a need that OpenStack opens up for. And Trilio has done that very well in the data protection domain. >> It's been a really great relationship. >> Alright, David Safaii, Arturo Suarez, thank you so much for joining us again. And check out thecube.net. If you go to the site, not only can you search by events and by guest but if you put in keyword, for example, getting ready for this event, I typed OpenStack in and there were hundreds of interviews that we've done over the years, not only at this OpenStack summit, but many other shows that have talked about it. Go find them, poke around, you know, so much content to be able to dig in. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with a lot more coverage here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching the Cube. (Background music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, it's the Cube, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon 2017. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Linux Foundation, and the Cube's Ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome back to the Cube's exclusive coverage live in Austin, Texas here for the three day CloudNative and now two days of KubeCon, Kubernetes conference. We had the second annual conference celebrating the evolution and growth of Kubernetes. I'm John Furrier, my cohost Stu Miniman and next guest Steve Watt, Chief Architect of Emerging Technologies at Red Hat, welcome back to the Cube. Good to see you. >> Thanks for having me, always a pleasure. >> So Red Hat making some good bets, some Kubernetes, not a bad call. >> No, Kubernetes has done wonders for our openship business, absolutely. (laughter) >> So how is this all playing out? We were just talking before we came on camera here about the just the pace of change. You been at Red Hat five years. We interviewed you when you were at HB during the big day to days, boy the world has certainly grown and changed. What has changed in your mind the most the people need to understand? >> I think Kubernetes has been a single biggest driving force to shift all enterprising architecture from scale up to scale out and I think that has just created a whole number of ripple effects across how applications are designed within the enterprise. >> I think that's the big one. >> Yeah. >> So Steve, that whole shift from scale up to scale out has affected lots of parts of the stack, but storage is something you've been working on, something we've been keeping a close eye on and was one of the top items we wanted to kind of dig into this week. Maybe, bring us inside a little bit, what's happening, what's Red Hat's role? >> Sure. >> Help explain. >> Absolutely, one of my favorite topics. It's kind of counterintuitive. I work in a CT office, I run the emerging technologies team, which is sort of the team that does the experiments that help shape and inform our long term strategy. And so you might think, well storage is kind of old news, how does that fit into this CloudNative world? Why does Red Hat care about it so much for their platform? And I think if you look at the CloudNative stack today, you have GKE, the new Amazon Kubernetes service, Azure, et cetera, these are all places where you can run your Kubernetes app, but just in that one place. Red Hat's platform perspective's a little different. We want you to be able to run your platform in an open hybrid cloud, whether that's in Google, in Azure or on premise, on OpenStack or on Bare Metal So you want to be able to run everywhere, but what's the biggest problem to achieving that application portability? It's data locking, so storage becomes cool again. (laughter) We got to solve this problem. >> Because you got to store the data somewhere. >> Steve: Right. >> And that's in the storage devices. >> Right, exactly. >> In the new way, the architecture. >> The new architecture, right? So the problem is, you've got to be very careful that if you want to move, ever you should think upfront about your persistence platform, so that it gives you the freedom to be able to move around. So Red Hat is investing heavily in trying to solve this problem. We've got a few exploratory prototypes that we're actually showing at this conference. And we work in both Kubernetes, building out the storage sub-system there, but also sort of in our products for like container native storage. >> Steve walk us through a little bit because we've been talking about this in the Docker Ecosystem for a bunch of years, where are we, what's being worked on? What still needs to be kind of sorted out? >> So, yeah that's interesting, I think we're finally over the hump where everybody's asking, Who's solving the persistence problem for containers? It used to drive me crazy, that went on for about three years. I think people finally realize, there are solutions. Kubernetes has always had them actually. And so, we've got past sort of the day one, like being able to, dynamically provision. Kind of like you'd see with Cinder in OpenStack. We've got a great storage. we've got a vibrant huge storage ecosystem and at our Kubernetes face to face meetings we have 50 people, they're like a mini conference. So we've got broad engagement from the entire storage ecosystem and that's doing everything that you need sort of on the file level, but there is recent (mumbles) work that we've done in Kubernetes for Service Broker is now the pattern to sort of provision object storage if you need it and most importantly, we've just enabled lock storage in Kubernetes in the 1.9 release that ships this week. And that is really interesting because it opens up the potential to run virtualization with loads on Kubernetes. >> Where's the action for the projects with storage? I heard some hallway rumbles just when I was, the Rook project. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Is that something, what projects, if I'm interested in storage, where do I dive in? Where's the most action for moving the needle for tuning the innovation around storage. >> I think it's if you're a storage vendor it's different if you're a storage consumer so Rook is a project that's focused on providing a sort of an abstraction for software defined storage platforms to run inside Kubernetes. Cluster doesn't take that approach, we've used sort of more of the pure Kubernetes approach. Sort of get to the same place. But Rook is definitely an interesting project in that, it's sort of an inception level project phase. Then for people that are wanting to consume storage, I think Kubernetes is the king of the pack. I obviously have a strong opinion on it, amongst the other container orchestrators, but the amount of investment in allowing people to do more continually more sophisticated features, you know snapshot's in, you know cloning, things like that. And obviously, I'm sure you've heard a little bit about container storage interface. >> Yes. >> CSI, and that makes it a lot easier for storage vendors to build one adapter that works across, Decos, Cloud foundry, Kubernetes, et cetera. >> What's the biggest surprise here for you, because we've been looking trying to read the tea leaves. Obviously Kubernetes, clear the runway, good standardization seeing some commoditization, great adoption, although people can tailor it. A lot of different versions, still early. >> Steve: Yeah. >> We're only two years old conference. >> I know. >> Three years it's been around. What's surprising you right now? What's jumping out at you? >> I think Amazon's announcement yesterday was very interesting. I think the fact that it's heartening to see that there's pure Kubernetes as a service being offered in Azure, Google and Amazon. And I think that quite interesting for affordability standpoint, right. And so I think to me that was a big surprise. Amazon doesn't usually go the pure vanilla open source approach and also the statements they're going to contribute back to Kubernetes, I think is quite interesting as well. So to me that's the one thing that stood out. >> What's going on for the future too? You mentioned you've got to set the roadmap. You guys have an agenda there obviously of installed base. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Now you've got OpenShift doing really well. What are you guys looking at? What's on your radar, how do you see this thing unfolding? What's in your mind? >> Yeah, I think there's a couple of really interesting things. Container orchestration is a legitimate disruption to virtualization. And that it solves the same problem opportunity space but in a fundamentally different manner that reshapes the market. I think the Kubert project is something that we're working on at Red Hat. It's another one of our sort of emerging technology focus areas. And when we enable block storage and it enables virtualization, what it gives us the opportunity to do in Kubernetes is have a single deployed platform that can serve both later adopters and early adopters. So the early adopters with pure container orchestration, but if you're wanting to have the same platform and do virtualization too on it, you can have sort of one investment, one shared experience to be able to do all of those. I think that's pretty cool. (laughter) >> Steve, talk about the customers that are watching or will be hearing over the next few months and a year around how to architectually package this and think about it in their mind. Whether it's a mental model or specifics. 'Cause there's always going to be that time tested trade off between performance, security and so you have, obviously people have VM's, not going away, but containerization where Google say, hey, we don't really care about VM's, we're a container company. There's always still going to be trade offs. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Speed, security. >> Steve: Security. >> So security factors in there. How should a practitioner think about getting their arms around this? >> I think this is the tact that OpenShift takes which is that Kubernetes is a decent project. Despite the huge amount of interest and contributions that we have and its maturity curve as far as, there are different things at attention, like enterprise use cases, versus public cloud use cases. And so we're very focused on our enterprise use cases and sort of enabling that inside OpenShift and bringing OpenShift up as a platform back to sort of enterprise level that our customers would expect. Virtualization platforms are much further down the maturity curve, and so I think that's sort of our approach is that, where that tries to meet our customers where they are. Some organizations have teams that are more advanced. Some that are less advanced. And so we try to offer, you know if you want to go virtualization we've got OpenStack, we've got Rev. If you want you could use this new school Kubernetes based container orchestration and you got teams understand it. (laughter) And you corrupt microservices then we've got a solution for that. >> Well you know that whole theme here is infrastructures is boring storage. It used to be called snorage back in the day. >> Steve: Yeah. >> It's pretty boring but relevant. Most people look at like Lambda from Amazon and some other serverless trends and certainly see them here with ServiceMesh and what not, the abstraction way of infrastructure, it's almost eliminating storage in the mind of the developer, yet it's changing, how are you guys specifically riding that wave? Because one, it's good for developers. >> Steve: Right. >> The velocity of developers increases, but the role of storage is changing. You mention block, people are like, oh block-- >> Yeah. >> It's dead. I mean storage has been dead for like 20 years now? >> Steve: Yeah. >> It keeps growing and growing, but now the role changes to the developer, abstracted away and also more important for automation and some of the dev ops things. What specifically are you guys doing? >> So, I think you said the word role. That's really important right? Like to an application developer what you said is absolutely true, they want to use persistence platforms for storing their data in a cloud native way, okay. However, the maturity code is also important. Not every application developer team is fully microservice based and understands all these architectural patterns. It's a journey, right? So we want to basically give them multiple options along their journey. So that's the one around the application persistence. So if they used to like file storage or object storage, et cetera, like we have our container native storage platform provides that for them from the application persistence level, but from an OpenShift standpoint, an OpenShift is our new platform. It's based on real but it's our new platform, our new service area to build applications and most notably, infrastructure services on. So just like with (mumbles) where we have, we created the opportunity to have a fertile ecosystem around it, we're doing the same with OpenShift, which means that we've got to enable the companies that are providing those persistence platforms. Those message cues, those NoSQL databases, to run on OpenShift. You want to run Cassandra on OpenShift on premise? What do you need underneath the Cassandra? Block storage, direct attached block storage, which we're building in Kubernetes 1.10. >> Steve, any patterns you're seeing between the customers that are being able to embrace really the kind of this new cloud data world versus those that are having challenges? Any advice you can give based on customer interactions and what you're seeing. >> That's a good question. I think, I just have to fall back on the fact that culture is a hard thing to change. It takes a long time. Institutions are persistent and so I think that for what we sort of say to our customers, our guidance on these topics is that, what we try and give you is choice. Depending on where you are on the journey, slowly move our customers through that journey and try to give them a variety of different choices on that. I think personally like with any new disruption, it usually has like 10 x value. Like the one benefit of containers over to machines is you don't have to bring the operating system along every time you create a new container, right? You can much more densely pack a server with containers with virtual machines. Get more resource utilization, but it takes a long time for an application development team to like fully get there. And so, that's the thing I think, is you just got to be judicious about like the right tool at the right time. >> Yeah, the other thing related to that is the pace of change. >> Steve: Yeah. >> I've talked to some of the people that created Kubernetes, the people who are running all this and they're like, I can't keep up with all these projects. What are you finding internally in Red Hat, as well as from your customers? >> Yeah, I think that it's absolutely true. I was just remarking on that a minute ago it's, you know I'm walking around. I hear this great quote, like why do you come to conferences? Do you come to conferences to learn or do you come to conferences to learn about what you need to learn? (laughter) >> Yeah. >> And it's the latter for me, right. And the ecosystem, the CloudNative ecosystem is exploding. And so I think what we try to do at Red Hat is, especially our team. Our goal in Emerging Technologies is to look 18 months down the road and pick the winners. Like community vitality standpoint, but also like the right technology. And there's this plethora of choices that we need to wave through and what we tend to do is distill that down into our platform that's something our customers can rely on. And that's reliable and we've picked the right project, but it's a big challenge. Like there's so much happening and even in storage it's becoming challenging. >> Steve Watt the Chief Architect of Emerging Engineering at Red Hat thanks for coming on the Cube, appreciate your perspective. It's an architectural game right now. A lot of people putting these new architectures together. It's cultural change. Congratulations on your success with OpenShift and everything else. >> Steve: Yeah, thank you very much. >> Alright, and more coverage here on the Cube after this short break. >> Steve: Thanks. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts. It's theCUBE. Covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost this week, John Troyer. Hi and welcome to the program, a first time guest, Professor at Boston University, and lead of the Massachusetts Open Cloud, Orran Krieger. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Ah, my pleasure, thank you. >> Alright, so, we're here in Boston, the center of culture, the revolution, a lot of universities. Tell us a little about you, just click on yourself, your role at BU, and then we'll get into the MOC stuff in a little bit too. >> Sure, I mean, I sort of came back from industry after 15 years in industry, to this incredible opportunity we had, to create this entity. I mean, there's no other place like this, if you take the universities in this city, it's equivalent to all the universities on the Pacific West Coast. Right, the concentration of high-tech is unbelievable here. >> I want to remind you, my wife was actually involved when Partners Healthcare first got launched here in Boston, was an early technology and collaboration here in Boston. Sounds similar, what you are, what you're doing with some of the universities in Cloud. Maybe you talk, you came from the vendor side. Just real quick, your background, you worked at a company that John and I know quite well. Maybe just give a quick background? >> Sure. I left academia, I don't know how many years ago. Ended up going to IBM research, and was there for about 10 years. And then I joined this little start-up called VMWare. And started up and then worked as sort of one of the lead architects for vCloud Director and the whole vCloud Initiative. >> Alright, great. Let's speak today, you also have, you're the lead in Massachusetts Open Cloud. We actually had a couple of guests on from Red Hat that talked a little bit about it. But tell us about the project, the scope of it, how many people involved, how many users you reach with this. >> Sure. The future is in the Cloud. I mean, you look at sort of the fact that users can use what they need, when they need it. Producers can get massive economies of scale. You know, the future of computing is in the cloud. And when I was on the industry side, what really concerned me, what was going on, is that these clouds were really closed. You couldn't see what was going on inside them. Innovation was sort of gated by this single provider, that operated and controlled each of these clouds. So, the question that I was struggling with back then, is how can we create a cloud that's open? That multiple technology companies can participate. And certainly when I came back to academia, a cloud where I could do innovation in. Where not just me, but many many different researchers. You look at how much research has fundamentally impacted our field. It's dramatic. Even in just sort of the very area we're talking about. From what Mendall and team did with VMWare, and then Zen coming out of Cambridge. I mean, Ceph coming out of, just like technology after technologies come out of academia. But now clouds are these closed boxes you can't get into. So we had this incredible opportunity. There'd be this data center, the Massachusetts Green High Performance Computing Data Center, MGHPCC. 15 megawatts. That's more than half the size of one of Google's 16 data centers. That had been built, right next to Hydro Dam, one third the power costs of what it is in Boston. By five big institutions: MIT, Harvard, BU, Northeastern, UMass. And we thought, wow, couldn't we create a cloud there? Couldn't we create a cloud with some 157,000 potential students as well as the broader ecosystem? So we started discussing that idea. All the universities kind of signed up behind it. The model of the cloud is not to create another single provider cloud. It's not going to be my cloud. The idea is to have many vendors participate. Stand up different services, and create an open cloud, where there's not just multiple tenants but there's also multiple landlords with the cloud. >> Great. Could you talk to us a little about how do some of those pieces get chosen? How does OpenStack fit into it? And if you can talk about some of the underlining pieces it'd be good to understand how you sort that out too. >> Sure. So in doing that we, it's actually been sort of this cool, you know you have to kind of build different levels simultaneously. When we started the project, you know our first thing was, oh you know we'll be able to just stand up a cloud. It wasn't that easy. OpenStack is actually a complicated learning curve to get up. Now it's matured tremendously. We've been in production for about ten months, with no significant failures. I'm almost thinking that we need to kind of bring it down for a couple hours. Just so the people start realizing this is not intended to be a place where you run it like you would a production data center facility. That we don't guarantee it as so, 'cause people are starting to assume we do. (laughing) But, we started off and we sort of solved OpenStack, got it up and running. Took us a while to get it to the production layer. Started hosting courses, and users, and stuff like that. And some tastes that with sort of two other tracks. One is I'm developing some of the base technologies to enable a cloud to be multi-vendor. So mix-and-match fetterations serve our core of that. Which is this new capability that we've, after like five iterations on the right way to do this to allow multiple different clouds with their own keystone, mix different administrators say from MIT or Harvard, or from companies that might want to participate and set up a service. So, to have a capability of fettering between those things. Allowing you, for example, to use storage from one and compute from another. We started off with OpenStack because OpenStack already had the right architecture. It was designed as a series of different services. Each one which could be scaled independently. Each one that had it's own well defined API. And it seemed natural, jeez, we should be able to compose them together. Have, you know, one stand up, Nova compute. Another one stand up, Swift storage. Another one stand up, Cinder Storage. Turned out not to be that easy. There was assumptions that all these services were stood up by the same administrative entity. After three iterations of trying to figure out with the community how to make it, we finally have a capability of doing that now. That we're putting into production in the MOC itself. >> You talked about the different projects inside OpenStack, that's been one of the discussions here this week at the Summit. Different projects, the core, which are important and also the whole ecosystem of other cloud native and open source projects that have grown-up around OpenStack over the last six or seven years. Any commentary on how, which kind of projects you're finding are the most useful and the UC as kind of the core of OpenStack going on? And also, which projects from other ecosystems do you think are natural fits into working on an OpenStack base platform? >> Sure. So in our environment, we serve all the core services you think of, obviously Nova and Cinder and Swift. We're using Ceph in most of our environments. Sahara, Heat. We've actually expanded beyond in a couple of different dimensions. I guess that, one thing is we've been using extensively Ceph, that's been very valuable for us. And we've also been modifying it actually, substantially. It's actually kind of exciting cause we have graduate students that are making changes that are now going upstream in the Ceph community as a result of their experiences in doing things within our environment. But, there's other projects that sort of tied in sort of two different levels. One is we're working very closely with Red Hat, today around OpenShift. And we're making the first deployment of that available in the very near future. And the other thing is very important for our environment, we have I think three different talks related to this to have data sets in the cloud. To have data sets shared between communities of people. Data sets that are discoverable. Data sets where you can actually, that are citable. So we've been working very closely with Harvard and the OpenSource dataverse community and we've together created the cloud dataverse. Which is now actually in the MOC. So researchers from all these institutions can actually publish their data sets. As well as researchers from around the world. So there's over 15,000 data sets today in the Harvard dataverse for example. >> Curious if you can give us any commentary on how open source fits into education these days? Talk about the pipeline and the next generation of workers. Do your students get, you talked about upstream contributions, how do they get involved? How early are they getting involved? >> Well, actually, that's sort of a bit of a passion of mine. So multiple different levels, I guess. One of them I think is this is a great way for a student to sort of get exposed to a broad community of people to interact with. I think it's, rather than going in to serve one company, and getting locked down doing one thing, I think it's just enormously valuable. There's sort of two different dimensions I guess, educationally and from a research prospective. And both of them were very tied to open source. So from an education perspective, we have a course, for example, one of my frustrations of having come back from industry was students had done a lot of great, learned how to program, often as individuals they really didn't learn how to do agile, they didn't learn how to work with teams of people, so we have a large course that's served by multiple institutions today that's sort of tied to the MOC where we actually have industry mentors, we teach them agile methods, we teach them a lot of the sort of fundamentals of cloud, but we also have industry mentors come in and mentor teams of five students to create a product. There's actually three different lightning talks by different students that have taken this course, that are here in the OpenStack forum today. So it's kind of exciting to see. We've had several hundred students that have learned that and at least, in my experience, learning how to deal with open source communities, mentorship is a great way of doing that. First year we started teaching this course we had sort of struggled finding mentors, now we're about twice as many mentors applying to mentor teams as we can accommodate in it. So that's been kind of exciting. >> That's great. That's super important and learning right and not just learning how to program but how to operate as a engineer and a team. >> So in the MOC itself, a lot of it's stood up by students. We have like 20 to 30 students. We have a very small core development in our operations team and most of it is actually students doing all the real work. It's been amazing how much they can accomplish in that environment. >> You mentioned OpenShift. So another conversation that's been somewhat confusing in the broader industry is the talking about containers versus VMs and virtualization and OpenStack. Here this week, I thought it's been a fairly clear message that there's some you can be containerizing the stack itself and then there's also a role for containers on top. Obviously been involved in virtualization for a long time, how are you seeing the evolution of both containerization as a technology, but also container based platforms versus kind of the infrastructure and provisioning of the cloud part? >> I mean, there's three levels that all have its role. There's actually people that want to control all the way down to the operating system and want to do, customize things who want to use SRLV and want to use accelerators that haven't. So there's people that actually want hardware as a service and we provide a capability for doing that that's got its limitations today. There's people that want to use virtual machines and there's people that actually want to use containers. And the ability to orchestrate setting up a complex multitiered environment on that and doing fine-grain sharing in a containerized environment is huge. I think that actually all three are going to have a continued role going forward. And certainly containerized approach is an awesome way to deploy a cloud environment and scale the cloud environment even the IAS environment. So we're certainly doing that. >> Love the idea of the collaboration you have both intermittently with all the universities. Are you getting reached out by outside of Massachusetts? How do you interact with the broader community and share ideas back and forth? >> So of course there is multiple streams of that one of them is our industry partners are very broad. Second, we've participated in sort of the OpenStack Summits and all those kind of things. The other thing is that the model that we are doing, I think has a lot of excitement and interest from very many different segments. I don't think people want to see the public cloud be dominated, or could see always be dominated by a very small number of vendors. So the idea of actually creating an open mall of cloud. Lots of other academic institutions have talked with us both about setting up sister organizations, fettering between clouds and replicating the model. We're still at an early stage. This model still has to be proven out. We're excited that we have users that are using us now to get their work done. Rather than just courses and things like that. But it's still at a very early stage So I think as we scale up we'll start looking at replicating that model more broadly. >> Is there any public information about what you're doing? And I'm curious, will this tie into like mooc delivery, things like that? >> Oh, absolutely yeah. It's all on our webpage info.massopencloud.org. So everything is done in the open, I guess. So all the projects, they're all, everything is on the websites and you can discover all about it. And we welcome participation from a broad community. And are excited about that. >> Orran Krieger. Really appreciate you sharing with our community everything there. Congratulations. Local, we'd love to stop by some time to check out even more. John and I will be back with lots more coverage here from openStack Summit 2017, Boston, Massachusetts. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the CUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman. And if I'm sitting on this side of the table with the long hallways behind me, it means we're here for the wrap of the second day. John Troyer's here, day two of three days, theCUBE here at OpenStack Summit. John, I feel like you're building energy as the show goes on, kind of like the show itself. >> Yeah, yeah, getting my footing here. Again, my first summit. It was a good second day, Stu, I think we made it through. We had some fascinating stuff. >> Yeah, fascinating stuff. Before we jump into some of the analysis here, I do want to say you know, first and foremost, big thanks to the foundation. Foundations themselves tend to get, they get beat up some, they get loved some, without the OpenStack Foundation, we would not be here. Their support for a number of years, our fifth year here at the show, as well as the ecosystem here, really interesting and diverse and ever-changing ecosystem, and that fits into our sponsors too. So Red Hat's our headline sponsor here. We had Red Hat Summit last week and two weeks, lots of Red Haters, and now lots of Stackers here. Additional support brought to us by Cisco, by Netronome, and by Canonical. By the way, no secret, we try to be transparent as to how we make our money. If it's a sponsored segment, it lists "sponsored by" that guest here, and otherwise it is editorial. Day three actually has a lot of editorial, it means we have a lot of endusers on the program. We do have vendors, cool startups, interesting people, people like Brian Stevens from Google. When I can get access to them, love to have it here. So big shout out as always. Content, we put it out there, the community, try to have it. Back to the wrap. John, you know we've kind of looked at some of the pieces here, the maturity, you know where it fits in the hybrid and multi cloud world. What jumped out at you as you've been chewing on day two? >> Well, my favorite thing from today, and we talked about it a couple times just in passing it keep coming up, is OpenStack on the edge. So the concept of, that the economics works today, that you can have a device, a box, maybe it's in your closet somewhere, maybe it's bolted to a lamppost or something, but in the old days it would have run on some sort of proprietary chip, maybe an embedded Linux. You can put a whole OpenStack distribution on there, and when you do that, it becomes controllable, it becomes a service layer, you can upgrade it, you can launch more services from there, all from a central location. That kind of blew my mind. So that's my favorite thing from today. I finally got my arms around that I think. >> Okay, great, and we saw Beth Cohen from Verizon was in the day one keynote. We're actually going to have her on our program for the third day. And right, teasing out that edge, most of it, telecommunications is a big discussion point here. I understand why. Telcos spend a lot of money, they are at large scale, and that NFV use case has driven a lot of adoption. So Deutsche Telekom is a headline sponsor of the OpenStack Foundation, did a big keynote this morning. AT&T's up on the main stage, Verizon's up on the main stage, you know Red Hat and Canonical all talk about their customers that are using it. You know, we just talked to Netronome about telecommunications. Everybody here, if you're doing OpenStack, you probably have a telco place because that's where the early money is and it tends to be, there's the network edge, then there's the IoT edge, and some of the devices there. So it was was one of the buzzy things going in and definitely is one of the big takeaways from the show so far. >> Well, Stu, I also think it's a major prove point for OpenStack, right. Bandwidth needs are not going down, that's pretty clear, with all the things you mentioned. Throughput is going to have to go up, services are going to have to be more powerful, and so all these different connected devices and qualities of service and streaming video to your car. So if OpenStack can build a back plan, a data plan for OpenStack that can do that, which it looks like they are doing, right, that's a huge prove point downstream from the needs of a telco, so I think that's super important for OpenStack that it's usable enough and robust enough to do that and that's one of the reasons I think it gets talked about so much. The nice thing is this year compared to my comparisons of previous years of OpenStack Summit, telco is not the only game in town, right. Enterprise also got a lot of play and there's a lot of use cases there too. >> And just to close out on that edge piece, really enjoyed the conversation we had with John and Kendall who had worked on the container space. Talking about the maturation of where Cinder had gone, how we went from virtualized environments to containerized environments. And even we teased out a little bit that edge use case. I can have a really small OpenStack deployment to put it at that edge. Maybe that's where some of the serverless stuff fits in. I know I've been, I tell my team, every time I get a good quote on serverless, let's make a gem out of that, put it out there, 'cause it's early days, but that is one of those deployments where I need at the edge environments, I need something lightweight, I need something that's going to be less expensive, can do some task processing, and both containers and potentially serverless can be interesting there. >> Yeah, I mean, even in our Canonical discussion with the product manager for their OpenStack distribution, right, containers are all over that, right, containers are just a way of packaging, there are some really interesting development pipelines that are now very popular and being talked about and built on in the container space. But containerization actually can come into play multiple points in the stack. Like you said, the Canonical distribution gets containerized and pushed out, it's a great way of compartmentalizing and upgrading, that's what the demo on stage today was about. Also, just with a couple of very short scripts, containerizing and pulling down components. So I think again, my second favorite thing after the edge today was just showing that actually containers and OpenStack mix pretty well. They're really not two separate things. >> Right, and I think containerization is one of those things that enables that multi cloud world. We talked in a number of segments today, everything from Kubernetes with Brian Stevens as to how that enables that. Reminds me at Red Hat Summit last week we talked a lot about OpenShift. OpenShift's that layer on top of OpenStack and sits at that application level layer to allow be to be able to span between public or private clouds and we need that kind of you know that to be able to enable some real multi or hybrid cloud environments. >> Yeah I mean, containers and in fact that Kubernetes layer may end up being the thing that drives more OpenStack adoption. >> Yeah, and the other thing that's been interesting, just hallway conversations, bumping into people we know, you know trying to walk around the show a little bit, as to people that are finally getting their arms around, okay, OpenStack from a technology standpoint has matured and you know they either need it to clean up what was their internal cloud or building something out, so real deployments. We talked about it yesterday in the close though. They're real customers doing real deployments. It's heartening to hear. >> Yeah I mean, one of those conversations, I ran into somebody at a hyperscale company, a friend of mine, and you know they are building out, internal OpenStack clouds to use for real stuff, right. >> But wait, hyperscale, come on, John, we can give away. Is this something we have on our phone or something we, I'll buy and use? >> One of those big folks. >> There's a large Chinese company that anybody in tech knows that's supposed to be doing a lot with OpenStack. We heard definitely Asia, very broad use of OpenStack. Been a theme of the whole show, right, is that outside the US where we tend to talk a lot about the public cloud, OpenStack's being used. An undertone I've heard is certain companies that start here in the United States, it's sometimes challenging for a foreign company to say I'm going to buy and use that, absolutely that is a headwind against a company like Amazon. Ties back to we had a keynote this morning with Edward Snowden and some of those things. What is the relationship between government and global companies that have a headquarters in the US and beyond. >> Yeah I think it's too soon to say where the pendulum, how the far the pendulum is going to swing. I'll be very interested in the commentary for next year to see have we moved away from more of the centralized services dominating the entire marketplace and workload into more distributed, more private, more customizable. For all those reasons, there's a lot of dynamics that might be pushing the pendulum in that direction. >> And one of the things I've liked hearing is infrastructure needs to be more agile, it needs to be more distributed, more modularized, especially as the applications are changing. So I feel like more than previous summits I've been at, we're at least talking about how those things fit together. With everything that's happening with the OpenStack Days, the Kubernetes, Cloud Foundry, Ceph, other open source projects, how those all fit together. It feels like a more robust, full position as opposed to , we were just building a software version of what we were doing in the data center before. >> My impression was the conversation at times had been a little more internally focused, right, it's a world unto its own. Here at this summit, they're definitely acknowledging there's an ecosystem, there's a landscape, it all has to interoperate. Usability's a part of that, and then interoperability and componentization is a part of that as well. >> The changing world of applications. We understand the whole reason we have infrastructure is to run those applications, so if we're not getting ready for that, what are we doing? >> I don't want to put words in their mouth, but I think the OpenStack community as a whole, one of their goals, you know, OpenStack needs to be as easy to run as a public cloud. The infrastructure needs to be boring. We heard the word boring a lot actually today. >> Yeah and what we say is, first of all, the public cloud is the bar that you were measured against. Whether it is easier or cheaper, your mileage may vary, because public cloud was supposed to be simple. They're adding like a thousand new features every year, and it seems to get more complicated over time. It's wonderful if we could architect everything and make it simple. Unfortunately, you know, that's why we have technology. I know every time I go home and have some interaction with a financial institution or a healthcare institution, boy, you wish we could make everything simpler, but the world's a complicated place and that's why we need really smart people like we've gotten to interview here at the show. So any final comments, John? >> No, I think that sums it up. Those are my favorite things for today. I'm looking forward to talking to a lot of customers tomorrow. >> Yeah, I'm really excited about that. John, appreciate your help here. So there's a big party here at the show. They're taking everyone to Fenway Park for the Stacker party. Last year it was an epic party in Austin. Boston's fun, Fenway's a great venue. Looks like the rain's going to hold off, which is good, but it'll be a little chillier than normal, but we will be back here with a third day of programming as John and I talked about. Got a lot of users on the program. Really great lineup, two days in the bag. Check out all the videos, go to SiliconANGLE.tv to check it all out. Big shout out to the rest of the team that's at the Dell EMC World and ServiceNOW shows, be able to check those out and all our upcoming shows. And thank you, everyone, for watching theCUBE. (technical beat)

>> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystem support. (techno music) >> And we're back. I'm Stu Miniman joined by my co-host, John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program two of the keynote speakers this morning, worked on some of the container activity, Kendall Nelson, who's a Upstream Developer Advocate with the OpenStack Foundation. >> Yep. >> And John Griffith, who's a Principal Engineer from NetApp, excuse me, through the SolidFire acquisition. Thank you so much both for joining. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. Thank you. >> John Griffith: Thanks for havin' us. >> Stu Miniman: So you see-- >> Yeah. >> When we have any slip-ups when we're live, we just run through it. >> Run through it. >> Kendall, you ever heard of something like that happening? >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. That might've happened this morning a little bit. (laughs) >> So, you know, let's start with the keynote this morning. I tell ya, we're pretty impressed with the demos. Sometimes the demo gods don't always live up to expectations. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> But maybe share with our audience just a little bit about kind of the goals, what you were looking to accomplish. >> Yeah. Sure. So basically what we set out to do was once the ironic nodes were spun up, we wanted to set up a standalone cinder service and use Docker Compose to do that so that we could do an example of creating a volume and then attaching it to a local instance and kind of showing the multiple backend capabilities of Cinder, so... >> Yeah, so the idea was to show how easy it is to deploy Cinder. Right? So and then plug that into that Kubernetes deployment using a flex volume plugin and-- >> Stu Miniman: Yeah. >> Voila. >> It was funny. I saw some comments on Twitter that were like, "Well, maybe we're showing Management that it's not, you know, a wizard that you just click, click, click-- >> John Griffith: Right. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> "And everything's done." There is some complexity here. You do want to have some people that know what they're doing 'cause things can break. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> I love that the container stuff was called ironic. The bare metal was ironic because-- >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> Right. When you think OpenStack at first, it was like, "Oh. This is virtualized infrastructure." And therefore when containers first came out, it was like, "Wait. It's shifting. It's going away from virtualization." John, you've been on Cinder. You helped start Cinder. >> Right. >> So maybe you could give us a little bit about historical view as to where that came from and where it's goin'. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's kind of interesting, 'cause it... You're absolutely right. There was a point where, in the beginning, where virtualization was everything. Right? Ironic actually, I think it really started more of a means to an end to figure out a better way to deploy OpenStack. And then what happened was, as people started to realize, "Oh, hey. Wait." You know, "This whole bare metal thing and running these cloud services on bare metal and bare metal clouds, this is a really cool thing. There's a lot of merit here." So then it kind of grew and took on its own thing after that. So it's pretty cool. There's a lot of options, a lot of choices, a lot of different ways to run a cloud now, so... >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> You want to comment on that Kendall, or... >> Oh, no. Just there are definitely tons of ways you can run a cloud and open infrastructure is really interesting and growing. >> That has been one thing that we've noticed here at the show. So my first summit, so it was really interesting to me as an outsider, right, trying to perceive the shape of OpenStack. Right? Here the message has actually been very clear. We're no longer having to have a one winner... You know, one-size-fits-all kind of cloud world. Like we had that fight a couple of years ago. It's clear there's going to be multiple clouds, multiple places, multiple form factors, and it was very nice people... An acknowledgement of the ecosystem, that there's a whole open source ecosystem of containers and of other open source projects that have grown up all around OpenStack, so... But I want to talk a little bit about the... And the fact that containers and Kubernetes and that app layer is actually... Doesn't concern itself with the infrastructure so much so actually is a great fit for sitting on top of or... And adjacent to OpenStack. Can you all talk a little bit about the perception here that you see with the end users and cloud builders that are here at the show and how are they starting to use containers. Do they understand the way these two things fit together? >> Yeah. I think that we had a lot of talks submitted that were focused on containers, and I was just standing outside the room trying to get into a Women of OpenStack event, and the number of people that came pouring out that were interested in the container stack was amazing. And I definitely think people are getting more into that and using it with OpenStack is a growing direction in the community. There are couple new projects that are growing that are containers-focused, like... One just came into the projects, OpenStack Helm. And that's a AT&T effort to use... I think it's Kubernetes with OpenStack. So yeah, tons. >> So yeah, it's interesting. I think the last couple of years there's been a huge uptick in the interest of containers, and not just in containers of course, but actually bringing those together with OpenStack and actually running containers on OpenStack as the infrastructure. 'Cause to your point, what everybody wants to see, basically, is commoditized, automated and generic infrastructure. Right? And OpenStack does a really good job of that. And as people start to kind of realize that OpenStack isn't as hard and scary as it used to be... You know, 'cause for a few years there it was pretty difficult and scary. It's gotten a lot better. So deployment, maintaining, stuff like that, it's not so bad, so it's actually a really good solution to build containers on. >> Well, in fact, I mean, OpenStack has that history, right? So you've been solving a lot of problems. Right now the container world, both on the docker side and Kubernetes as well, you're dealing with storage drivers-- >> John Griffith: Yeah. >> Networking overlays-- >> Right. >> Multi-tenancy security, all those things that previous generations of technology have had to solve. And in fact, I mean, you know, right now, I'd say storage and storage interfaces actually are one of the interesting challenges that docker and Kubernetes and all that level of containers and container orchestration and spacing... I mean, it seems like... Has OpenStack already solved, in some way, it's already solved some of these problems with things like Cinder? >> Abso... Yeah. >> John Troyer: And possibly is there an application to containers directly? >> Absolutely. I mean, I think the thing about all of this... And there's a number of us from the OpenStack community on the Cinder side as well as the networking side, too-- >> Yeah. >> Because that's another one of those problem spaces. That are actually taking active roles and participating in the Kubernetes communities and the docker communities to try and kind of help with solving the problems over on that side, right? And moving forward. The fact is is storage is, it's kind of boring, but it's hard. Everybody thinks-- >> John Troyer: It's not boring. >> Yeah. >> It's really awesomely hard. Yeah. >> Everybody thinks it's, "Oh, I'll just do my own." It's actually a hard thing to get right, and you learn a lot over the last seven years of OpenStack. >> Yeah. >> We've learned a lot in production, and I think there's a lot to be learned from what we've done and how things could be going forward with other projects and new technologies to kind of learn from those lessons and make 'em better, so... >> Yeah. >> In terms of multicloud, hybrid cloud world that we're seeing, right? What do you see as the role of OpenStack in that kind of a multicloud deployments now? >> OpenStack can be used in a lot of different ways. It can be on top of containers or in containers. You can orchestrate containers with OpenStack. That's like the... Depending on the use case, you can plug and play a lot of different parts of it. On all the projects, we're trying to move to standalone sort of services, so that you can use them more easily with other technologies. >> Well, and part of your demo this morning, you were pulling out of a containerized repo somehow. So is that kind of a path forward for the mainline OpenStack core? >> So personally, I think it would be a pretty cool way to go forward, right? It would make things a lot easier, a lot simpler. And kind of to your point about hybrid cloud, the thing that's interesting is people have been talking about hybrid cloud for a long time. What's most interesting these days though is containers and things like Kubernetes and stuff, they're actually making hybrid cloud something that's really feasible and possible, right? Because now, if I'm running on a cloud provider, whether it's OpenStack, Amazon, Google, DigitalOcean, it doesn't matter anymore, right? Because all of that stuff in my app is encapsulated in the container. So hybrid cloud might actually become a reality, right? The one thing that's missing still (John Troyer laughs) is data, right? (Kendall Nelson laughs) Data gravity and that whole thing. So if we can figure that out, we've actually got somethin', I think. >> Interesting comment. You know, hybrid cloud a reality. I mean, we know the public cloud here, it's real. >> Yeah. >> With the Kubernetes piece, doesn't that kind of pull together some... Really enable some of that hybrid strategy for OpenStack, which I felt like two or three years ago it was like, "No, no, no. Don't do public cloud. >> John Griffith: Yeah. >> "It's expensive and (laughter) hard or something. "And yeah, infrastructure's easy and free, right?" (laughter) Wait, no. I think I missed that somewhere. (laughter) But yeah, it feels like you're right at the space that enables some of those hybrid and multicloud capabilities. >> Well, and the thing that's interesting is if you look at things like Swarm and Kubernetes and stuff like that, right? One of the first things that they all build are cloud providers, whether OpenStack, AWS, they're all in there, right? So for Swarm, it's pretty awesome. I did a demo about a year ago of using Amazon and using OpenStack, right? And running the exact same workloads the exact same way with the exact same tools, all from Docker machine and Swarm. It was fantastic, and now you can do that with Kubernetes. I mean, now that's just... There's nothing impressive. It's just normal, right? (Kendall Nelson laughs) That's what you do. (laughs) >> I love the demos this morning because they actually were, they were CLI. They were command-line driven, right? >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> I felt at some conferences, you see kind of wizards and GUIs and things like that, but here they-- >> Yeah. >> They blew up the terminal and you were typing. It looked like you were actually typing. >> Kendall Nelson: Oh, yeah. (laughter) >> John Griffith: She was. >> And I actually like the other demo that went on this morning too, where they... The interop demo, right? >> Mm-hmm. >> John Troyer: They spun up 15 different OpenStack clouds-- >> Yeah. >> From different providers on the fly, right there, and then hooked up a CockroachDB, a huge cluster with all of them, right? >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> Can you maybe talk... I just described it, but can you maybe talk a little bit about... That seemed actually super cool and surprising that that would happen that... You could script all that that it could real-time on stage. >> Yeah. I don't know if you, like, noticed, but after our little flub-up (laughs) some of the people during the interop challenge, they would raise their hand like, "Oh, yeah. I'm ready." And then there were some people that didn't raise their hands. Like, I'm sure things went wrong (John Troyer laughs) and with other people, too. So it was kind of interesting to see that it's really happening. There are people succeeding and not quite gettin' there and it definitely is all on the fly, for sure. >> Well, we talked yesterday to CTO Red Hat, and he was talking same thing. No, it's simpler, but you're still making a complicated distributed computing system. >> Kendall Nelson: Oh, definitely. >> Right? There are a lot of... This is not a... There are a lot of moving parts here. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, it's funny, 'cause I've been around for a while, right? So I remember what it was like to actually build these things on your own. (laughs) Right? And this is way better, (laughter) so-- >> So it gets your seal of approval? We have reached a point of-- >> Yeah. >> Of usability and maintainability? >> Yeah, and it's just going to keep gettin' better, right? You know, like the interop challenge, the thing that's awesome there is, so they use Ansible, and they talk to 20 different clouds and-- >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> And it works. I mean, it's awesome. It's great. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> So I guess I'm hearing containers didn't kill OpenStack, as a matter of fact, it might enable the next generation-- >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> Of what's going on, so-- >> John Griffith: Yeah. >> How about serverless? When do we get to see that in here? I actually was lookin' real quick. There's a Functions as a Service session that somebody's doing, but any commentary as to where that fits into OpenStack? >> Go ahead. (laughs) >> So I'm kind of mixed on the serverless stuff, especially in a... In a public cloud, I get it, 'cause then I just call it somebody else's server, right? >> Stu Miniman: Yeah. >> In a private context, it's something that I haven't really quite wrapped my head around yet. I think it's going to happen. I mean, there's no doubt about it. >> Kendall Nelson: Yeah. >> I just don't know exactly what that looks like for me. I'm more interested right now in figuring out how to do awesome storage in things like Kubernetes and stuff like that, and then once we get past that, then I'll start thinking about serverless. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> 'Cause where I guess I see is... At like an IoT edge use case where I'm leveraging a container architecture that's serverless driven, that's where-- >> Yeah. >> It kind of fits, and sometimes that seems to be an extension of the public cloud, rather than... To the edge of the public cloud rather than the data center driven-- >> John Griffith: Yeah. >> But yeah. >> Well, that's kind of interesting, actually, because in that context, I do have some experience with some folks that are deploying that model now, and what they're doing is they're doing a mini OpenStack deployment on the edge-- >> Stu Miniman: Yep. >> And using Cinder and Instance and everything else, and then pushing, and as soon as they push that out to the public, they destroy what they had, and they start over, right? And so it's really... It's actually really interesting. And the economics, depending on the scale and everything else, you start adding it up, it's phenomenal, so... >> Well, you two are both plugged into the user community, the hands-on community. What's the mood of the community this year? Like I said, my first year, everybody seems engaged. I've just run in randomly to people that are spinning up their first clouds right now in 2017. So it seems like there's a lot of people here for the first time excited to get started. What do you think the mood of the user community is like? >> I think it's pretty good. I actually... So at the beginning of the week, I helped to run the OpenStack Upstream Institute, which is teaching people how to contribute to the Upstream Community. And there were a fair amount of users there. There are normally a lot of operators and then just a set of devs, and it seemed like there were a lot more operators and users looking that weren't originally interested in contributing Upstream that are now looking into those things. And at our... We had a presence at DockerCon, actually. We had a booth there, and there were a ton of users that were coming and talking to us, and like, "How can I use OpenStack with containers?" So it's, like, getting more interest with every day and growing rapidly, so... >> That's great. >> Yeah. >> All right. Well, want to thank both of you for joining us. I think this went flawless on the interview. (laughter) And yeah, thanks so much. >> Yeah. >> All these things happen... Live is forgiving, as we say on theCUBE and absolutely going forward. So thanks so much for joining us. >> John Griffith: Thank you. John and I will be back with more coverage here from the OpenStack Summit in Boston. You're watching theCUBE. (funky techno music)