>> (bright music) >> Narrator: The Cube, presents Kubecon and Cloudnativecon, year of 2022, brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Now what we're opening. Welcome to Valencia, Spain in Kubecon Cloudnativecon, Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host, Paul Gillin, who is the senior editor for architecture at Silicon angle, Paul. >> Keith you've been asking me questions all these last two days. Let me ask you one. You're a traveling man. You go to a lot of conferences. What's different about this one. >> You know what, we're just talking about that pre-conference, open source conferences are usually pretty intimate. This is big. 7,500 people talking about complex topics, all in one big area. And then it's, I got to say it's overwhelming. It's way more. It's not focused on a single company's product or messaging. It is about a whole ecosystem, very different show. >> And certainly some of the best t-shirts I've ever seen. And our first guest, Jim has one of the better ones. >> I mean a bit cockroach come on, right. >> Jim Walker, principal product evangelist at CockroachDB and Christian Huning, tech director of cloud technologies at Finleap Connect, a financial services company that's based out of Germany, now offering services in four countries now. >> Basically all over Europe. >> Okay. >> But we are in three countries with offices. >> So you're CockroachDB customer and I got to ask the obvious question. Databases are hard and started the company in 2015 CockroachDB, been a customer since 2019, I understand. Why take the risk on a four year old database. I mean that just sounds like a world of risk and trouble. >> So it was in 2018 when we joined the company back then and we did this cloud native transformation, that was our task basically. We had very limited amount of time and we were faced with a legacy infrastructure and we needed something that would run in a cloud native way and just blend in with everything else we had. And the idea was to go all in with Kubernetes. Though early days, a lot of things were alpha beta, and we were running on mySQL back then. >> Yeah. >> On a VM, kind of small setup. And then we were looking for something that we could just deploy in Kubernetes, alongside with everything else. And we had to stack and we had to duplicate it many times. So also to maintain that we wanted to do it all the same like with GitOps and everything and Cockroach delivered that proposition. So that was why we evaluate the risk of relatively early adopting that solution with the proposition of having something that's truly cloud native and really blends in with everything else we do in the same way was something we considered, and then we jumped the leap of faith and >> The fin leap of faith >> The fin leap of faith. Exactly. And we were not dissatisfied. >> So talk to me a little bit about the challenges because when we think of MySQL, MySQL scales to amazing sizes, it is the de facto database for many cloud based architectures. What problems were you running into with MySQL? >> We were running into the problem that we essentially, as a finTech company, we are regulated and we have companies, customers that really value running things like on-prem, private cloud, on-prem is a bit of a bad word, maybe. So it's private cloud, hybrid cloud, private cloud in our own data centers in Frankfurt. And we needed to run it in there. So we wanted to somehow manage that and with, so all of the managed solution were off the table, so we couldn't use them. So we needed something that ran in Kubernetes because we only wanted to maintain Kubernetes. We're a small team, didn't want to use also like full blown VM solution, of sorts. So that was that. And the other thing was, we needed something that was HA distributable somehow. So we also looked into other solutions back at the time, like Vitis, which is also prominent for having a MySQL compliant interface and great solution. We also got into work, but we figured, this is from the scale, and from the sheer amount of maintenance it would need, we couldn't deliver that, we were too small for that. So that's where then Cockroach just fitted in nicely by being able to distribute BHA, be resilient against failure, but also be able to scale out because we had this problem with a single MySQL deployment to not really, as it grew, as the data amounts grew, we had trouble to operatively keep that under control. >> So Jim, every time someone comes to me and says, I have a new database, I think we don't need it, yet another database. >> Right. >> What problem, or how does CockroachDB go about solving the types of problems that Christian had? >> Yeah. I mean, Christian laid out why it exists. I mean, look guys, building a database isn't easy. If it was easy, we'd have a database for every application, but you know, Michael Stonebraker, kind of godfather of all database says it himself, it takes seven, eight years for a database to fully gestate to be something that's like enterprise ready and kind of, be relied upon. We've been billing for about seven, eight years. I mean, I'm thankful for people like Christian to join us early on to help us kind of like troubleshoot and go through some things. We're building a database, it's not easy. You're right. But building a distributor system is also not easy. And so for us, if you look at what's going on in just infrastructure in general, what's happening in Kubernetes, like this whole space is Kubernetes. It's all about automation. How do I automate scale? How do I automate resilience out of the entire equation of what we're actually doing? I don't want to have to think about active passive systems. I don't want to think about sharding a database. Sure you can scale MySQL. You know, how many people it takes to run three or four shards of MySQL database. That's not automation. And I tell you what, this world right now with the advances in data how hard it is to find people who actually understand infrastructure to hire them. This is why this automation is happening, because our systems are more complex. So we started from the very beginning to be something that was very different. This is a cloud native database. This is built with the same exact principles that are in Kubernetes. In fact, like Kubernetes it's kind of a spawn of borg, the back end of Google. We are inspired by Spanner. I mean, this started by three engineers that worked at Google, are frustrated, they didn't have the tools, they had at Google. So they built something that was, outside of Google. And how do we give that kind of Google like infrastructure for everybody. And that's, the advent of Cockroach and kind of why we're doing, what we're doing. >> As your database has matured, you're now beginning a transition or you're in a transition to a serverless version. How are you doing that without disrupting the experience for existing customers? And why go serverless at all? >> Yeah, it's interesting. So, you know, serverless was, it was kind of a an R&D project for us. And when we first started on a path, because I think you know, ultimately what we would love to do for the database is let's not even think about database, Keith. Like, I don't want to think about the database. What we're building too is, we want a SQL API in the cloud. That's it. I don't want to think about scale. I don't want to think about upgrades. I literally like. that stuff should just go away. That's what we need, right. As developers, I don't want to think about isolation levels or like, you know, give me DML and I want to be able to communicate. And for us the realization of that vision is like, if we're going to put a database on the planet for everybody to actually use it, we have to be really, really efficient. And serverless, which I believe really should be infrastructure less because I don't think we should be thinking of just about service. We got to think about, how do I take the context of regions out of this thing? How do I take the context of cloud providers out of what we're talking about? Let's just not think about that. Let's just code against something. Serverless was the answer. Now we've been building for about a year and a half. We launched a serverless version of Cockroach last October and we did it so that everybody in the public could have a free version of a database. And that's what serverless allows us to do. It's all consumption based up to certain limits and then you pay. But I think ultimately, and we spoke a little bit about this at the very beginning. I think as ISVs, people who are building software today the serverless vision gets really interesting because I think what's on the mind of the CTO is, how do I drive down my cost to the cloud provider? And if we can basically, drive down costs through either making things multi-tenant and super efficient, and then optimizing how much compute we use, spinning things down to zero and back up and auto scaling these sort of things in our software. We can start to make changes in the way that people are thinking about spend with the cloud provider. And ultimately we did that, so we could do things for free. >> So, Jim, I think I disagree Christian, I'm sorry, Jim. I think I disagree with you just a little bit. Christian, I think the biggest challenge facing CTOs are people. >> True. >> Getting the people to worry about cost and spend and implementation. So as you hear the concepts of CoachDB moving to a serverless model, and you're a large customer how does that make you think or react to your people side of your resources? >> Well, I can say that from the people side of resources luckily Cockroach is our least problem. So it just kind of, we always said, it's an operator stream because that was the part that just worked for us, so. >> And it's worked as you have scaled it? without you having ... >> Yeah. I mean, we use it in a bit of a, we do not really scale out like the Cockroach, like really large. It's like, more that we use it with the enterprise features of encryption in the stack and our customers then demand. If they do so, we have the Zas offering and we also do like dedicated stacks. So by having a fully cloud native solution on top of Kubernetes, as the foundational layer we can just use that and stamp it out and deploy it. >> How does that translate into services you can provide your customers? Are there services you can provide customers that you couldn't have, if you were running, say, MySQL? >> No, what we do is, we run this, so the SAS offering runs in our hybrid private cloud. And the other thing that we offer is that we run the entire stack at a cloud provider of their choosing. So if they are an AWS, they give us an AWS account, we put it in there. Theoretically, we could then also talk about using the serverless variant, if they like so, but it's not strictly required for us. >> So Christian, talk to me about that provisioning process because if I had a MySQL deployment before I can imagine how putting that into a cloud native type of repeatable CICD pipeline or Ansible script that could be difficult. Talk to me about that. How CockroachDB enables you to create new onboarding experiences for your customers? >> So what we do is, we use helm charts all over the place as probably everybody else. And then each application team has their parts of services, they've packaged them to helm charts, they've wrapped us in a super chart that gets wrapped into the super, super chart for the entire stack. And then at the right place, somewhere in between Cockroach is added, where it's a dependency. And as they just offer a helm chart that's as easy as it gets. And then what the teams do is they have an inner job, that once you deploy all that, it would spin up. And as soon as Cockroach is ready it's just the same reconcile loop as everything. It will then provision users, set up database schema, do all that. And initialize, initial data sets that might be required for a new setup. So with that setup, we can spin up a new cluster and then deploy that stack chart in there. And it takes some time. And then it's done. >> So talk to me about life cycle management. Because when I have one database, I have one schema. When I have a lot of databases I have a lot of different schemas. How do you keep your stack consistent across customers? >> That is basically part of the same story. We have get offs all over the place. So we have this repository, we see the super helm chart versions and we maintain like minus three versions and ensure that we update the customers and keep them up to date. It's part of the contract sometimes, down to the schedule of the customer at times. And Cockroach nicely supports also, these updates with these migrations in the background, the schema migrations in the background. So we use in our case, in that integration SQL alchemy, which is also nicely supported. So there was also part of the story from MySQL to Postgres, was supported by the ORM, these kind of things. So the skill approach together with the ease of helm charts and the background migrations of the schema is a very seamless upgrade operations. Before that we had to have downtime. >> That's right, you could have online schema changes. Upgrading the database uses the same concept of rolling upgrades that you have in Kubernetes. It's just cloud native. It just fits that same context, I think. >> Christian: It became a no-brainer. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Jim, you mentioned the idea of a SQL API in the cloud, that's really interesting. Why does such a thing not exist? >> Because it's really difficult to build. You know, SQL API, what does that mean? Like, okay. What I'm going to, where does that endpoint live? Is there one in California one on the east coast, one in Europe, one in Asia? Okay. And I'm asking that endpoint for data. Where does that data live? Can you control where data lives on the planet? Because ultimately what we're fighting in software today in a lot of these situations is the speed of light. And so how do you intelligently place data on this planet? So that, you know, when you're asking for data, when you're maybe home, it's a different latency than when you're here in Valencia. Does that data follow and move you? These are really, really difficult problems to solve. And I think that we're at that layer of, we're at this moment in time in software engineering, we're solving some really interesting, interesting things cause we are budding against this speed of light problem. And ultimately that's one of the biggest challenges. But underneath, it has to have all this automation like the ease at which we can scale this database like the always on resilient, the way that we can upgrade the entire thing with just rolling upgrades. The cloud native concepts is really what's enabling us to do things at global scale it's automation. >> Let's alk about that speed of light in global scale. There's no better conference for speed of light, for scale, than Kubecon. Any predictions coming out of the show? >> It's less a prediction for me and more of an observation, you guys. Like look at two years ago, when we were here in Barcelona at QCon EU, it was a lot of hype. It's a lot of hype, a lot of people walking around, curious, fascinated, this is reality. The conversations that I'm having with people today, there's a reality. There's people really doing, they're becoming cloud native. And to me, I think what we're going to see over the next two to three years is people start to adopt this kind of distributed mindset. And it permeates not just within infrastructure but it goes up into the stack. We'll start to see much more developers using, Go and these kind of the threaded languages, because I think that distributed mindset, if it starts at the chip all the way to the fingertip of the person clicking and you're distributed everywhere in between. It is extremely powerful. And I think that's what Finleap, I mean, that's exactly what the team is doing. And I think there's a lot of value and a lot of power in that. >> Jim, Christian, thank you so much for coming on the Cube and sharing your story. You know what we're past the hype cycle of Kubernetes, I agree. I was a nonbeliever in Kubernetes two, three years ago. It was mostly hype. We're looking at customers from Microsoft, Finleap and competitors doing amazing things with this platform and cloud native in general. Stay tuned for more coverage of Kubecon from Valencia, Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with Paul Gillin and you're watching the Cube, the leader in high tech coverage. (bright music)

>>The queue presents Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022, brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain and Coon cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith towns, along with Paul Gillon, senior editor, enterprise architecture, Silicon angle. We are going to talk to some amazing folks, especially in today's segment. Paul there's a lot of companies here, like what what's been the, the consistent theme you've heard so far in the show. >>Well, you know, one thing that's different from this show, it seems to me than others I've attended is it's all around open source. We're not seeing a lot of companies bringing new proprietary technology to market. We are seeing them try to piece together, open source components with some kind of, perhaps there's a proprietary element to it, but to create some kind of a, a common management interface or control plane, and that's quite different from what I think we've seen in the past and open source business models have been difficult to make work historically. And these companies are all taking their, their own approaches to it. But I think the, the degree to which this, the people here of coalesced around the importance of open source is building blocks to the future of, of applications is something I've not seen quite this way before. >>Well, with our current segment guests, we're gonna go deep into kind of these challenges and how enterprises are addressing, and their partners are addressing with those challenges we have with us, a flower head of cloud native HCL technologies. We'll get into how a system integrator is helping with this transition to Ramon neon, senior product manager, redhead. Welcome to the show. You're now cute. Alum. Welcome. >>Thanks for having us. >>So we're gonna get right off, off the bat. We're gonna talk about this. What are some of the trends you're seeing when it comes to application migration? You've done, I'm assuming at this point, thousands of them, what are some of the common trends? >>Well, it's a very good question. And clearly a C we've helped thousands of clients move tens of thousands of applications to what we would call a cloud native, you know, environment. I think the overwhelming trend that we're seeing of course is clients realize it's a particularly complex, sophisticated journey. It requires a certain set of skills and capability clients increasingly asking us for anything that we can do to simplify and accelerate the journey, cuz what's really important to clients. If you're on a transformation journey to cloud is you wanna see some value very quickly. So I don't wanna wait three to five years to transform my applications portfolio. If you can do something in three to five days, that would be perfect. Thank you. >>Well, three to five days, that sounds more akin to when we were doing P to V or V to V migrations, I'm sure HCL is at this point done in the millions of those types of migrations. What are some of the challenges or the nuance in doing a traditional migration from a traditional MI monolithic application to a cloud native? >>Well, it's another good question. Of course you notice that there's a general trend in the industry. Clients don't really want to lift and shift anymore. Lift and shift doesn't really bring any transformational value to my, to my company. So clients are looking for increasingly what we could call cloud native modernization. I want my applications to really take advantage of the cloud native environment. They need to be elastic and kind of more robust than maybe before now in particular, I think a lot of clients have realized that this state of Nirvana, which was we're gonna modernize everything to be a cloud native microservices based application. That is a tremendous journey, but no client really has the time patient or resources to fully refactor or rearchitect all of their applications. They're looking for more immediate kind of impact. So a key trend that we've seen of course is clients still want to refactor and modernize applications, but they're focusing those resources on those applications that will bring greater impact to their business. >>What they now see as a better replacement for lift and shift is probably what we would call replatforming, where they want all of the advantages of a cloud native environment, but they haven't necessarily got the time to modernize the code base. They wanna refactor to Kubernetes and re replatform to Kubernetes in particular, and they want us to take them there quickly. And that's why, for example, this week at cuon eight sellers announced a new set of tools called KMP based on conveyor, an open source project supported by red hat. And the key attraction of KMP is it lets me replatform my applications to Kubernetes immediately, right? Within two or three minutes, I can bring an application from a legacy platform directly onto Kubernetes and I can take it straight into production. That's the kind of acceleration that clients are looking for today. Isn't >>That just a form of lift and shift though? >>Well, no lift and shift typically of course, was moving virtual machines from one place to another. You know, the focus of Kubernetes of course is containerization of solutions. And it's not just about containerizing the solution and movement. It it's the DevOps tool chain around the solution as well. And of course, when I take that application into production in a Kubernetes based environment, I'm expecting to operate it in a different way as well. So that's where we see tremendous focus on what we would call cloud native operations clients expecting to use practices like site reliability engineering, to run these replatformed applications in a different way to, >>It sounds like you're saying, I mean, replatforming has been a, a spectrum of options. I think Gartner has seven different types of platforming. Are you seeing clients take more mature attitude now to replatforming? Are they looking more carefully at the characteristics of their legacy applications and, and try to try to make maybe more nuanced choices about what to replatform, what to just leave >>Alone? I think clients and I I'm sure Ramon's got some comments on this too, but clients have a lot more insight now in terms of what works for them. They they've realized that this, this promise of maybe a microservices based applications estate is a good one, but I can't do that for every application. If I am a large enterprise with several thousand applications in my portfolio, I can't refactor everything to become microservices based. So clients see replatforming possibly it's a middle ground. I, I get a lot of the advantages from a cloud native environment. My applications are inherently more efficient, hopefully a lot more performance. >>Yeah. It's, it's a matter of software delivery performance. Yeah. So legacy workloads will definitely benefit from being brought into Kubernetes in the software delivery per performance department. So it's a matter of somehow revamping your, your legacy applications and getting the benefits in, in life's application, life cycle management, a full tolerance and all that stuff. It's about leveraging the, what Kubernetes offers. >>When you say bringing legacy applications into Kubernetes. It's not that simple, right? I mean, what's involved in doing that. >>It, it, isn't, it's just a matter of taking a holistic view at your application portfolio and understanding the nuance sets of each application type within your organization and trying to come up with a suitable migration strategy for each one of these application types. And for that, what we're trying to do is provide a series of standardized tools and methodologies from a community perspective, we created this conveyor community. It, it was kick started by red hat and IBM, but we are trying to bring as many vendors and GSI as possible to try to set up these standards to make these road towards Kubernetes as easy as >>Possible. So we've done a little bit of app modernization in the CTO advisor hybrid infrastructure. And one of the things that we've found is there's plenty of Avan advantages. If I take a monolithic application that has that I've traditionally had to scale off to game performance, I can take selective parts of that, and now I can add autoscaling to it. Exactly. However, as I look at a landscape Allen of thousands of applications, I need to dedicate developer resources to get that done in my traditional environment. But my traditional environment is busy building new. My traditional or my developers are building new applications and new capabilities. I just don't have the resources to do that. How does HCL and red hat team together to kind of fast track that capability? >>Well, I'll comment on two things in particular, actually the, the first thing when it comes to skilling, I think the thing that's really surprised us at HCL is so many of our clients around the world have said, we are desperately short of skills. We cannot hire ourselves out of this problem. We need to get our existing developer community reskilled around platforms like OpenShift, conveyor, and other projects too. So the first thing that's happened to us at eight seal is we've been incredibly busy undertaken, probably what we would call developer workforce modernization, right? Where we have to help the client reskill their entire technical and developer community to give them the skills, right. So we will help the clients develop a community, build the cloud native understanding, help them understand how to modernize tools for example, or applications. But the second thing I mention is, and this comes back to a comment the Ram made around around conveyor. >>It's been really encouraging to see the open source community, start to invest in building the supporting frameworks around my kind of modernization journey, because if I'm a developer that's reskilling and I'm attempting to maybe modernize an application, being able to dip into an opensource project, I mean, a good example would be tackled part of the conveyor project. Exactly. You now have open source based tools that will help you analyze your applications. They will go into the source code and they will give the developer guidance in terms of what would be effective treatments to undertake. So perhaps a development team that are new to this modernization journey, they would benefit from a project like conveyor, for example, exactly because I need to know where can I safely modernize my application now for experience organizations like HCL that comes naturally to us, but for people who are just starting this journey, if I can take an open source tool like tackle or the rest of conveyor, for example, and use that to accelerate my journey, it takes a lot of pressure off, off my organization, but it also accelerates the journey too. And >>It's not just a matter of, of tooling. We we're also, opensourcing the, the modernization methodology that we've been using in red hat consulting for years. So this whole conveyor communities, it's all about knowledge sharing on one hand and building a set of tools together based on that knowledge that we are sharing to make it as easy as possible. >>And what role does red hat play in all that, I mean is your, your, you you've carved out this position for yourself as the, as the true open source company. Is that, does that position you for a leadership role in helping or companies make this >>Transition? I wouldn't say we should be leading the whole thing. We, we kick started it, but we want to get other vendors on board for this thing. One cool thing about the Camra community is that IBM is opensourcing a lot of their IP. So IBM research is on board. In this thing, we have some really crazy stuff related to a AI being applied to application analysis. We have some machine learning in place. We have very cool stuff that has been sitting on a, on a corner in IBM research for quite some years that now it's being open sourced and integrated in a unified user experience to streamline the modernization process as much as possible. >>So let's talk about the elephant of the room. HCL was leading the conversation around cloud Foundry circa five plus years ago. And as customers are thinking about their journey to cloud native, how should they think about that cloud Foundry to cloud native or Kubernetes replatform? >>Well with within the cloud Foundry community, we've, we've been quite staunched supporters of Kubernetes for quite some time, right? It's, it's quite a, a stated intent of the cloud Foundry foundation to, to move across to Kubernetes platform right now that is a significant engineering journey for cloud Foundry to take. Now we're in this position where a lot of large users of cloud Foundry have a certain urgency to their journey. They, they want to consolidate on a single Kubernetes based infrastructure. We, we see a lot of traction around OpenShift, for example, from red hat in terms of its market leadership. So a lot of clients are saying we would like to consolidate all of our platforms around a single kind of Kubernetes vendor, whether that's red hat or anyone else, you know, quite frankly. So what HCL is doing right now with the tools and the solutions we've announced this week is we're simply accelerating that journey for clients. If I've got a large installed base of applications running in my cloud Foundry environment, and I've also started to invest in standardize on Kubernetes place platforms like OpenShift, most clients would see it as quite a sensible choice to now try and consolidate those two environments into one. And that's simply what we're doing at HCL. We're making it very, very easy. In fact, we fully automated the journey so I can move all of my applications from cloud Foundry into for example, OpenShift pretty much immediately, and it just simplifies the entire journey. >>So the, as we start to wrap up the segment, I like to know customer stories. What, what, how customers either surprised or challenged when they get into, even with the help of an ACL in redhead, why are they seeing the most difficult parts of their migrations? >>Well, my, my simple comment would be maybe complexity, right? And the, the associated requirement for skilled people to undertake this modernization work, right? We spoke about this, of course, in terms of clients now are a lot more realistic. They understand that their ambition now needs to be somewhat tempered by their ability to sort of drive modernization quickly. So we see a lot of clients when they look at their very large global portfolios of applications, they're trying to invest their resources in the higher priority applications, the revenue generative applications in particular, but they have to bring everything else with them as well. Now, a common kind of separation point was we see a lot of clients who might say I'm gonna properly modernize and refactor, maybe five to 10% of my portfolio, but the other 90% also needs to come on the journey as well. And that's really where replatforming in particular kicks in. So, so the key trend again, is, is clients send to us, I've gotta take the entire journey. All right, I've got the resources and the skills to really focus on this much of my application base. Can someone simplify the overall journey so I can afford to bring everything on a cloud native journey? >>So the key to success here is having a holistic view at the application portfolio, segmenting the application portfolio in different application types and ordering the, the priorities of these application types and come up with suitable migration strategies for each one of them is >>Really necessary to move everything though. >>Not necessarily, no. Yeah. Or not necessarily. Yeah, absolutely not everything, but it would make sense. As we were saying before, it will definitely move, make sense to move legacy applications towards Kubernetes, to leverage all the software delivery. >>That's, that's a big project, right? >>It is. >>If you're gonna restructure the application around eight API and microservices, >>That it should be taken the way I've seen organizations succeeding the most in these road towards cloud native and Kubernetes in general is trying to address the whole portfolio. Maybe not move everything, but try to have this holistic view and not leave anything behind. Because if you try to do this isolated initiatives of bringing these or that application in, in isolation, you're Def you, you will miss part of the picture and you might be doomed to fail >>There. Yeah. It's been my experience that if you don't have a plan to migrate your applications to a cloud native operating model, then you're doomed to follow lift and shift examples to the public cloud. Yeah. Whether you're going to any other clouds, if you don't make that, that operational transition. Last question on operational transition, we've talked a lot about the replatforming process itself. What about day two at the I've landed to the cloud? What are some of the top considerations for, for compliance op observability? Just making sure my apps stay up in transitioning my workforce to that model. >>I think the over, you know, the overarching trend or theme that, that I see is clients now are, are asking for what I would call cloud native operations. Now in particular, there's a very solid theme around what we would call reliability engineering. So think about site reliability, engineering, SRE platform, reliability engineering, PR E. These are the dominant topics that clients now want to engage HCL on in particular, because the point you make is a valid one. I've modernized my application. Now I need to modernize the way that I operate the application in production. Otherwise I won't see those benefits. So that general theme of SRE is keeping us really busy. We're busy, re-skilling all of those operations teams around the world as well, because they need to know how to run these environments appropriately >>Too. And also being able to measure your progress while your transitioning is important. And that's one of the concerns that we are addressing as well in the community with a called polars to, to measure and to effectively measure the software delivery performance of, of the organization after the transition has been done. >>And this is a really good point by the way, cuz most, most people think it's a bit of a black art. How do I understand how I modernize my application? How do I understand how I've improved my kind of value chain around software creation and many people thought you needed to bring in very expensive consultants to advise you on these, on these black lives? No, >>Definitely >>Not. But in open source projects like conveyor from, from red hat, the availability of these tools available on an open source model means exactly any engineer, any developer can get these tools off the shelf and get that immediate benefit. >>Well, a flower head of creative labs at HCL at Ramon neon, senior product manager, redhead. Thank you for joining the Q you now cube alum. You'll have a nice profile like the profile pictures on here. Awesome. Absolutely. Thank you. From Valencia Spain. I'm Keith towns, along with Paul Gillon and you're watching the cue, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain and Coon cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith towns, along with Paul Gillon, senior editor, enterprise architecture and Silicon angle. We are going to talk to some amazing folks, especially in today's segment. Paul, uh, there's a lot of companies here, like what what's been the, the consistent theme you've heard so far in the show. >>Well, you know, one thing that's different from this show, it seems to me than others I've attended is it's all around open source. We're not seeing a lot of companies bringing new proprietary technology to market. We are seeing them try to piece together, open source components with some kind of, perhaps there's a proprietary element to it, but to create some kind of a, a common management interface or control plane, and that's quite different from what I think we've seen in the past open source business models have been difficult to make work historically. Uh, and these companies are all taking their, their own approaches to it. But I think the, the degree to which this, the people here of coalesced around the importance of open source is building blocks to the future of, of applications is something I've not seen quite this way before. >>Well, with our current segment, guess we're gonna go deep into kind of these challenges and how enterprises are addressing, and their partners are addressing with those challenges we have with us, a flower head of cloud native HCL technologies. We'll get into how a system integrator is helping with this transition to Ramon neon, senior product manager, redhead. Welcome to the show. You're now cube alum. Welcome. Thanks for having us. So we're gonna get right off, uh, off the bat. We're gonna talk about this. What are some of the trends you're seeing when it comes to application migration? You've done, I'm assuming at this point, thousands of them, what are some of the common trends? >>Well, it's a very good question. And clearly ACL we've helped thousands of clients move tens of thousands of applications to what we would call a cloud native, um, you know, environment. I think the overwhelming trend that we're seeing of course is clients realize it's a particularly complex, sophisticated journey. It requires a certain set of skills and capability clients increasingly us for anything that we can do to simplify and accelerate the journey, cuz what's really important to clients. If you're on a transformation journey to cloud is you wanna see some value very quickly. So I don't wanna wait three to five years to transform my applications portfolio. If you can do something in three to five days, that would be perfect. Thank you. >>Well, three to five days, that sounds more akin to when we were doing, uh, P to V or V to V migrations. I'm sure. Uh, HCL is at this point done in the millions of those types of migrations. What are some of the challenges or the nuance in doing a traditional migration from a traditional MI monolithic application to a cloud native? >>Well, it's another good question. Of course you notice that there's a general trend in the industry. Clients don't really want to lift and shift anymore. Lift and shift doesn't really bring any transformational value to my, to my company. So clients are looking for increasingly what we could recall, cloud native modernization. I want my applications to really take advantage of the cloud native environment. They need to be elastic and kind of more robust than maybe before now in particular, I think a lot of clients have realized that this state of Nirvana, which was we're gonna modernize everything to be a cloud native microservices based application. That is a tremendous journey, but no client really has the time patient or resources to fully refactor or rearchitect all of their applications. They're looking for more immediate kind of impact. So a key trend that we've seen of course is clients still want to refactor and modernize applications, but they're focusing those resources on those applications that will bring greater impact to their business. >>What they now see as a better replacement for lift and shift is probably what we would call replatforming, where they want all of the advantages of a cloud native environment, but they haven't necessarily got the time to modernize the code base. They wanna refactor to Kubernetes in re replatform to Kubernetes in particular, and they want us to take them there quickly. And that's why, for example, this week at cuon eight sellers announced a new set of tools called KMP based on conveyor, an open source project supported by red hat. And the key attraction of KMP is it lets me replatform my applications to Kubernetes immediately, right? Within two or three minutes, I can bring an application from a legacy platform directly onto Kubernetes and I can take it straight into production. That's the kind of acceleration that clients are looking for today. Isn't >>That just a form of lift and shift though? >>Well, no lift and shift typically of course, was moving virtual machines from one place to another. You know, the focus of Kubernetes of course is containerization of solutions. And it's not just about containerizing the solution and moving it. It's the DevOps tool chain around the solution as well. And of course, when I take that application into production in a Kubernetes based environment, I'm expecting to operate it in a different way as well. So that's where we see tremendous focus on what we would call cloud native operations clients expecting to use practices like site reliability engineering, to run these replatformed applications in a different way to, so >>It sounds like you're saying, I, I mean, replatforming has been a, a spectrum of options. I think Gartner has seven different types of re-platforming. Uh, are you seeing clients take more mature attitude now toward replatforming? Are they looking more carefully at the characteristics of their legacy applications and, and trying to try to make maybe more nuanced choices about what to replatform, what to just leave >>Alone? I think clients and I I'm sure Ramon's got some comments on this too, but clients have a lot more insight now in terms of what works for them. They they've realized that this, this promise of maybe a microservices based applications estate is a good one, but I can't do that for every application. If I am a large enterprise with several thousand applications in my portfolio, I can't refactor everything to become microservices based. So clients see replatforming possibly is a middle ground. I, I get a lot of the advantages from a cloud native environment. My applications are inherently more efficient, hopefully a lot more performance. >>Yeah. It's, it's a matter of software delivery performance. Yeah. So, uh, legacy workloads will definitely benefit from, uh, being brought into Kubernetes in the software delivery per performance department. So, uh, it's a matter of, uh, somehow Rebump your, your legacy applications and getting the benefits in, in life's application, life cycle management, a, uh, full tolerance and all that stuff. It's about leveraging the, what Kubernetes offers. >>When you say bringing legacy applications into Kubernetes. It's not that simple, right? I mean, what's involved in doing that. >>It, it, isn't, it's just a matter of taking a holistic view at your application portfolio and understanding the nuances of each application type within your organization and trying to come up with a suitable migration strategy for each one of these application types. And for that, what we're trying to do is provide a series of standardized, um, tools and methodologies, uh, from a community perspective, uh, we created this conveyor community. Uh, it, it was kick started by red hat and IBM, but we are trying to bring as many vendors and GSI, uh, as possible to try to set up these standards to make these, uh, road towards Kubernetes as easy as >>Possible. So we've done a little bit of, uh, app modernization in the CTO advisor hybrid infrastructure. And one of the things that we've found, there's plenty of Avan advantages. If I take a monolithic application that has, uh, that I've traditionally had to scale off to, uh, game performance, I can take selective parts of that, and now I can add auto-scaling to it. Exactly. However, as I look at a landscape Allen of thousands of applications, uh, I need to dedicate developer resources to get that done and my traditional environment, but my traditional environment is busy building new. My traditional or my developers are building new applications and new capabilities. I just don't have the resources to do that. How does HCL and red hat team together to kind of fast track that capability? >>Well, um, I'll comment on two things in particular, actually the, the first thing when it comes to skilling, I think the thing that's really surprised us at HCL is so many of our clients around the world have said, we are desperately short of skills. We cannot hire ourselves out of this problem. We need to get our existing developer community re-skilled around platforms like OpenShift, conveyor, and other projects too. So the first thing that's happened to us at eight still is we've been incredibly busy undertaken, probably what we would call developer workforce modernization, right, where we have to help the client reskill their entire technical and developer community to give them the skills, right. So we will help the clients develop a community, build the cloud native understanding, help them understand how to modernize tools for example, uh, or applications. But the second thing I mention is, and this comes back to a comment that Ramon made around around conveyor. >>It's been really encouraging to see the open source community start to invest in building the supporting frameworks around my kind of modernization journey, because if I'm a developer that's re-skilling and I'm attempting to maybe modernize an application, being able to dip into an open source project, I mean, a good example would be tackled part of the conveyor project. Exactly. You now have open source based tools that will help you analyze your applications. They will go into the source code and they will give the developer guidance in terms of what would be effective treatments to undertake. So perhaps a development team that are new to this modernization journey, they would benefit from a project like conveyor, for example, because I need to know where can I safely modernize my application now for experience organizations like HCL that comes naturally to us, but for people who are just starting this journey, if I can take an open source tool like tackle or the rest of the conveyor, for example, and use that to accelerate my journey, it takes a lot of pressure off, off my organization, but it also accelerates the journey too. >>And it's not just a matter of, of tooling. We we're also opensourcing, uh, the, the modernization methodology that we've been using in red hat consulting for years. So this whole conveyor communities, it's all about knowledge sharing on one hand and building a set of tools together, based on that knowledge that we are sharing to make it as easy as possible. >>And what role does red hat play in all that, I mean, is your you've carved out this position for yourself as the, as the true open source company. Is that, does that position you for a leadership role in helping companies make this >>Transition? I wouldn't say we should be leading the whole thing. Uh, we, we kick started it, but we want to get other vendors on board for this thing. One cool thing about the Camira community is that IBM is, uh, opensourcing a lot of their IP. So IBM research is on board. In this thing, we have some really crazy stuff related to a AI being applied to application analysis. We have some machine learning in place. We have very cool stuff that has been sitting on a, on a corner in IBM research for quite some years that now it's being open sourced and integrated in a, uh, unified user experience to streamline the, uh, modernization process as much as >>Possible. So let's talk about the elephant of the room. Uh, HCL was leading the conversation around cloud Foundry circa five plus years ago. And as customers are thinking about their journey to cloud native, how should they think about that cloud Foundry to cloud native or Kubernetes, uh, replatforming? >>Well within the cloud Foundry community, we've, we've been quite staunched supporters of Kubernetes for quite some time, right? It's, it's quite a, a stated intent of the cloud Foundry foundation to, to move across to Kubernetes platform right now that is a significant engineering journey for cloud Foundry to take. Now we're in this position where a lot of large users of cloud Foundry have a certain urgency to their journey. They, they want to consolidate on a single Kubernetes based, okay. Um, infrastructure. We, we see a lot of traction around OpenShift, for example, from red hat in terms of its market leadership. So a lot of clients are saying we would like to consolidate all of our platforms around a single kind of Kubernetes vendor, whether that's red hat or anyone else, you know, quite frankly. So what ATL is doing right now with the tools and the solutions we've announced this week is we're simply accelerating that journey for clients. If I've got a large installed base of applications running in my cloud Foundry environment, and I've also started to invest in standardize on Kubernetes based platforms like OpenShift, most clients would see it as quite a sensible choice to now try and consolidate those two environments into one. And that's simply what we're doing at HCL. We're making it very, very easy. In fact, we fully automated the journey so I can move all of my applications from cloud Foundry into for example, OpenShift pretty much immediately. And it just simplifies the entire journey. >>So the, as we start to wrap up the segment, I like to know customer stories. What, what, how customers either surprised or challenged when they get into, even with the help of an ACL in redhead, why are they seeing the most difficult parts of their migrations? >>Well, my, my simple comment would be maybe complexity, right? And the, the associated requirement for skilled people to undertake this modernization work, right? We spoke about this, of course, in terms of clients now are a lot more realistic. They understand that their ambition now needs to be somewhat tempered by their ability to sort of drive modernization quickly. So we see a lot of clients when they look at their very large global portfolios of applications, they're trying to invest their resources in the higher priority applications, the revenue generative applications in particular, but they have to bring everything else with them as well. Now, a common kind of separation point was we see a lot of clients who might say I'm gonna properly modernize and refactor, maybe five to 10% of my portfolio, but the other 90% also needs to come on the journey as well. And that's really where replatforming in particular kicks in. So, so the key trend again, is, is clients send to us, I've gotta take the entire journey. All right, I've got the resources and the skills to really focus on this much of my application base. Can someone simplify the overall journey so I can afford to bring everything on a cloud native journey? >>So the key to success here is having a holistic view at the application portfolio, segmenting the application portfolio in different application types and ordering the, the priorities of these application types and come up with suitable migration strategies for each one of them is >>Really necess necessary to move everything though. >>Not necessarily no, or, uh, not necessarily. Yeah, absolutely not everything. But, uh, it would make sense. Uh, as we were saying before, it will definitely move, make sense to move legacy applications towards Kubernetes, to leverage all the, uh, software delivery >>That's >>That's project, right? >>It is. If >>You're gonna restructure the application around APIs and microservices, >>That it should be taken the, the way I've seen, uh, organizations succeeding the most in this, uh, road towards cloud native and Kubernetes in general is trying to address the whole portfolio. Maybe not move everything, but try, try to have this holistic view and not leave anything behind, because if you try to do this isolated, uh, initiatives of bringing this or that applications in a, in isolation, you're Def you, you will miss part of the picture and you might be, uh, doomed to fail >>There. Yeah. It's been my experience that if you don't have a plan to migrate your applications to a cloud native operating model, then you're doomed to follow lift and shift examples to the public cloud. Yeah. Whether you're, uh, going to any other clouds, if you don't make that, that operational transition. Last question on operational transition, we've talked a lot about the replatforming process itself. What about day two, uh, at the I've landed to the cloud? What are some of the top considerations for, for compliance, uh, op op observability, just making sure my apps stay up and transitioning my workforce to that model. >>I, I, I think the over, you know, the overarching trend or theme that, that I see is clients now are, are asking for what I would call cloud native operations. Now in particular, there's a very solid theme around what we would call reliability engineering. So think about site reliability, engineering, SRE platform, reliability engineering, PR E. These are the dominant topics that clients and I want to engage, uh, HCL on in particular, because the point you make is a valid one. I've modernized my application. Now I need to modernize the way that I operate the application in production. Otherwise I won't see those benefits. So that general theme of SRE is keeping us really busy. We're busy, re-skilling all of those operations teams around the world as well, because they need to know how to run these environments appropriately too. >>And also being able to measure your progress while your transitioning is important. And that's one of the concerns that we are addressing as well in the premier community with a tool called polars to, to measure, to effectively measure the software delivery performance of, of the organization after the transition has been done. >>And this is a really good point by the way, cuz most, most people think it's a bit of a black art. How do I understand how I modernize my application? How do I understand how I've improved my kind of value chain around software creation and many people thought you needed to bring in very expensive consultants to advise you on these, on these black lives? No, >>Definitely >>Not. But in open source projects like conveyor from, from red hat, the availability of these tools available on an open source model means exactly any engineer, any developer can get these tools off the shelf and get that immediate benefit. >>Well, a flower head of creative labs at HCL at Ramon neon, senior product manager, redhead. Thank you for joining the QPI. Now Cuba alum, uh, you'll have a nice profile like the profile picture on here. Awesome. >>Absolutely. Thank you. >>From Valencia Spain. I'm Keith towns, along with Paul Gillon and you're watching the cue, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>Welcome to the cubes coverage of C CFS, co con EU cloud native con in Valencia Spain, I'm John furrier. This is a preview interview with the co-chairs versus we have Jasmine James senior engineering manager and of developer experience and Coon cloud native con EU co-chair and RI ricotta Rocher computing engineer at CERN and Coon co-chair as well at EU. Great to have you both on great to see you, both of you, >>Hey, to be here, >>Us >>Keep alumni. So, you know, Coon just continues to roll and get bigger and bigger, um, and watching all the end user action watching the corporations enterprises come in and just all the open source projects being green litted and just all the developer onboarding has been amazing. So it should be a great EU and Vale span, great venue. A lot of people I I'm talking to are very excited, so let's get into it as co-chairs take us through kind of the upcoming schedule at a very high level. Then I wanna dig into, uh, some of the new insights into selection and program programming that you guys had to go through. I know every year it's hard. So let's start with the overall upcoming schedule for COCOM. >>Yeah. So I'll dive into that. So the schedule is represents a, quite a diverse set of topics. I would say, um, I personally am a fan of those, you know, more personal talks from an end user perspective. There's also like a lot of the representation from a community perspective and how folks can get involved. Um, as most of, you know, like our tracks, the types of tracks has evolved over the year as well. So we now have a community track student track. So it's gonna be very exciting to hear content within those tracks, um, through in Valencia. So a very exciting schedule. Um, yeah. >>And just real quick for the folks watching it's virtual and physical it's hybrid event May 4th through seventh Ricardo, what's your take on the schedule? Uh, how do you see it breaking down from a high level standpoint? >>Yeah, so, um, I'm pretty excited. Um, I think the, the fact that this hybrid will help keep, um, build on the experiences we had, uh, during the pandemic times to, to give a better experience for people not making, uh, it to Valencia. I'm pretty excited also about the number of co-located events. So the two days before the conference will include, uh, um, a large number of co-located events, focusing on security S uh, and some new stuff for like batch and HPC workloads that I'm pretty close to as well. Uh, and then some, some really good consolidation in some tracks like this value, which I think will be quite, quite interesting as well. >>So you mentioned this is gonna be like watch parties, people gonna be creating kind of satellite events. Is that what you're referring to, uh, in terms of the physical space gonna be an event, obviously, um, what's going on around, outside the event, either online or as part of the program. >>So, yeah, uh, the, the, all the sessions, uh, from, from the collocated events will be available virtually as well. I don't know if people will actually be setting up parties everywhere. <laugh>, I'm sure some people will. Yeah, >>There'll definitely be >>Some. And then for, for, for the conference itself, there will be dedicated rooms where for the virtual talks, uh, people can just join in and sit for a while and watch the virtual talks and then go back to the in person, ones, uh, Monday feel >>Like, yeah, it's always a good event. Uh, Jasmine, we talked about this last time and Ricardo, we always get into the hood as well. What's the vibe on the, the, the, the programming. And honestly, people wanna get, give talks. There's a virtual component, which opens up more aperture, uh, for more community and more actions as, as Ricardo pointed out. What's what was the process this year? Because we're seeing a lot of big trends emerge, obviously securities front and center, um, end user projects are growing data engineering is a new persona. That's just really emerged out of kind of the growth of data and the role of data that it plays and containers. And, and with Kubernetes, just a lot of action. What's the, what was it like this year in, in the selection process for the program? >>Yeah, I mean, the selection process is always lots of fun for the co-chairs. Um, you shout out to program committee, track chairs, you put in a lot of great work and reviewing talks and, and it's just a very, very thorough process. So kudos to all of us who are getting through it for this year. I think that lots of things emerge, but I still feel like security is top of mind for a lot of folks, like security is really has provided. One of the biggest, um, submissions is from, from a quantity perspective, there are tons of talks submitted for security track, and that just kind of speaks for itself, right? This is something that the cloud native community cares about, and there's still a lot of innovation and people wanna voice what they're doing and share it. >>Ricardo, what's your take, we've had a lot of chats around not only some of the hardcore tech, but some of the new waves that are emerging out of the growth, the mature maturization of, of, of the segment. What are you seeing, uh, as terms of like the, the key things that came out during the, the process? >>Yeah, exactly. So I think I would highlight something that Jasmine said, which is the, the emergency emergence of some new tracks as well. Uh, she mentioned the student track, but also we added a research track, which is actually the first time we'll have it. So I'm pretty excited about that. Of course, uh, then for the trends, clearly security observability are, uh, massive tracks for app dev operations, uh, extending Kubernetes had also a lot of submissions. Um, I think the, the main things I saw that, uh, kind of, uh, gain a bit of more consistency is the part for the business value. And, uh, the, the, the fact that people are now looking more at the second step, like managing cloud costs, uh, how to optimize, uh, spot usage and, um, usage of GPUs for machine learning, things like this. So I'm pretty excited. And all these hybrid deployments also is something that keeps coming back. So those were, are the ones that, uh, I, I think came out from, from, from the submission at this time, >>You know, it's interesting as the growth comes in, you see these cool new things happen, but there are also signs of problems that need to be solved to create opportunities. Jasmine, you mentioned security. Um, there's a lot of big trends, scale Ricardo kind of hinting at the scale piece of it, but there's all this now new things, the security posture changes, uh, as you shift left, it's not, it's not, it's not over when you shift left in security in the pipeline in there, but it's, there's audits. There's the size of, uh, the security elements, uh, there's bill of materials. Now, people who got supply chains, these are huge conversations right now in the industry, supply chain security, um, scale data, uh, optimization management, um, notifications, all this is built in, built into a whole nother level. What do you guys see in the key trends in the cloud native ecosystem? >>I, I would say that a lot of the key trends, like you said, it, right, these things are not going anywhere. It's actually coming to a point of maturation. Um, I see more of a focus on how consuming, how, how companies go about consuming these different capabilities. What is that experience like? There's a talk that's gonna be offered, um, as a keynote, um, just about that security and leveraging developers to scale security within your environment. And not only is it a tool problem, it's a mindset thing that you have to be able to get over and partner bridge gaps between teams in order to make this, um, a reality within, within, um, people, within certain organizations. So I see the experience part of it, um, coming a big, a big thing. Um, there's multiple talks about that. >>Ricardo, what's your take on these trends? Cause I look at the, the, the paragraph of the projects now it's like this big used to be like a couple sentences. Now you got more projects coming on, you got the rookies in there and you got the, the veterans, the veteran projects in there. So this speaks volumes to kind of things like notaries new, right? So this is cool. Wait, what does that mean? Okay. Security auditing all this is happening. What are the, what are the big trends that you're excited about that you see that people are gonna be digging in, in, in the pro in, in the event? >>Yeah, I think we, we, we talked about supply chain just before. I think that's, that's a big one. We, we saw a, a keynote back in north America already introducing this, and we saw a lot of consolidation happening now in projects, but also companies supporting this project. Um, I, I'm also quite interested, interested in the evolution of Kubernetes in the sense that it's not just for, what was it, it was traditionally used for like traditional it services and scaling. We start seeing, there will be a very cool keynote from, from deploying, uh, Kubernetes at the edge, but really at the edge with the lower orbit satellites running ES in basically, uh, space. So those things I think are, are, are very cool. Like we start seeing really a lot of consolidation, but also people looking at Kubernetes for, for pretty crazy things, which is very exciting. >>Yeah. You mention, you mentioned space that really takes us to a whole edge, another level of edge thinking, um, you know, I've had many conversations around how do you do break fixing space with some folks in, in the space industry, in, in public sector, software is key in all this. And again, back to open source, open source has to be secured. It has to be, be able to managed effectively. It needs to be optimized into the new workflows space is one of them, you know, you see in, um, 5g edge is huge, uh, with new kind of apps that are being built there. So open source plays a big role in all this. So the, the question I wanna ask you guys is as open source continues to grow and it's growing, we're seeing startups emerge with the playbook of you. You play an open source or you actually create a project and then you get funding behind it because I know at least three or four VCs here in Silicon valley that look at the projects and say, they're looking for deals. And they're saying, keep it open a whole nother level. Can you guys share your insights on how the ecosystem's, uh, evolving with entrepreneurship and, and startups? >>Uh, oh, I guess I'll start. Um, I think that it's such a healthy thing, um, to have such innovation occurring, um, is it's really just, uh, Testament as to how the cloud native community right. Nurtures and cultivates these ideas and provides a great framework for them to develop over time, going from, you know, the sandbox and incubating and graduating and having the support of a solid framework, I think is a lot of the reason why a lot of these projects grow so quickly and reach certain these high levels of adoption. Um, so it's a really fantastic thing to see. I think that, you know, VCC an opportunity and, and, and there's a lot of great innovation that can be, you know, operationalized and scaled, right. Um, and applied to a lot of industries. So I feel it, I feel like it's a very healthy thing. Um, it also creates a lot of opportunities about something I'm passionate about, which is like, you know, people getting involved in open source as a step into the world of tech. Um, so all of these projects coming about provide an opportunity for folks to get involved in a particular component they're interested in and then grow their career in open source. So really great thing, in my opinion. >>And you mentioned the student track, by the way, I kept to point that out. I mean, that's huge. That's gonna be a lot of people who have, you know, in computer science programs or self learning. I mean, the, the, the ability to get up to speed, uh, from a development standpoint, as a coder, um, you can be a rural comp SI or, uh, just a practitioner just coding. I mean, data's everywhere. So data engineering, coding, I mean, Ricardo, this is huge student and then just every sector's opening up. I mean, the color codes on the calendar is, uh, larger than ever before. >>Yeah. I think, yeah, the, the diversity of the usage and the communities is, is something that is really important and it's been growing still. So I, I think this one not stop. Um, I'm pretty, pretty, pretty excited to see also how we'll handle this growth, because as you mentioned, like everything is increasing in numbers, number of projects, number of startups around this project. Uh, so one, one thing that I'm particularly interested on as an end user is to understand also how to help other end users that are jumping in not only the, the developers or, or the people wanting to support these projects, but also the end users. How, how do they choose their sta how, how it's, how, how should they look like for their use cases, much more than just going, uh, from, from the selection, individual projects to understand how they, they work together. So I think this is a challenge for, for the next couple of years. >>Yeah. I mean, roll your own and building blocks, whatever you wanna call it, you're starting to see people, uh, build their own stacks. And that's not a bad thing. It might be a feature, not a bug. >>Yeah. I, I would agree that I think it's something that we have to work on, uh, together to, to, to help, especially people starting in the ecosystem, but also for, for the experienced ones that start looking at other use cases as well. >>Okay. Jasmine, we talked about this last time, you gotta pick a favorite, uh, child in the, in the, in the agenda. Uh, what's your favorite session? Um, and you gotta pick one or three or maybe put handful, um, as you guys look through this year, what's the theme. I mean, people like you can kind of sense what's happening. Uh, when you look at the agenda, obviously observability is in there, all these great stuff's in there, but what's the, what's your favorite, um, uh, project or topic this year that, uh, you're jazzed about >>For me, I I'd say there's such diverse, um, topics that are being presented both on the keynote stage and throughout, um, the various tracks. I will just reference, um, the talk that I, I sort of alluded to earlier about, um, leveraging developers to scale Kubernetes. Um, it's a talk given by red hat on the keynote stage. Um, I just think it, you know, the abstracts will me because it's talks about bridging two different roles together, um, and scaling what we all know to be so important within the cloud native space, security and Kubernetes. So it's something that's very like real for me, um, in, in my current role and previous roles. So I think that that's the one that spoke to me. >>Awesome. Ricardo, what's your favorite, uh, this year? What do you, what do you, uh, if you had to put a little gold star on something that you're interested in, what it would it be? >>I think I hinted on, on it just before, which is, uh, I'm, I'm kind of a space enthusiast. So all, all this idea of running Kubernetes in space, um, makes me very excited. So really looking forward to that one, but as an end user, I'm also very interested in talks. Uh, like the one Mercedes will be doing, which is the transition from a kind of a more traditional company to this, uh, uh, more modern world of, uh, cloud native. And I'm quite interested to hear how, how, what their experience has been has been like in the last few years. >>Well, you guys do a great job. I love chatting with you and I love, uh, CNCF and following from the beginning, we were there when it was, when it was created and watched it grow from an insider perspective, the hyperscalers people who are really kind of eating glass and building scale, you know, SREs. Now you have, you have the SRE concept going kind of global mainstream, seeing enterprises and end users contributing and participating enterprises, getting, connecting those two worlds. Jasmine, as you said, as you look at that, you're starting to see the scale piece become huge. You mentioned it a little bit earlier, Jasmine, the SRE role was specific to servers and cloud. You're kind of seeing that kind of role needed for this kind of cloud native layer. We're seeing it with data engineering. It's not for the faint of heart. It may not be a persona. That's got zillions of people, but it scales. It's like an SRE role. You're seeing that with this kind of monitoring and, and with containers and Kubernetes where it's gotta get easier and scale, how do you guys see that? Do you see that emerging in the community, this, this kind of new scale role and, um, what is it, what is this trend? Or maybe I'm misrepresenting it or maybe I'm sensing it wrong, but what do you guys think about the scale piece? How is that F falling into place? >>Yeah, I, I think that is, um, adoption, like, or there's more saturation of, of cloud native technologies within any environment. Um, most in most companies realize that you have to have that represented right within the role that is managing it. Um, if you wanna have it be reliable. Um, so I think that a lot of roles are adopting those behaviors, right. In order to be able to sustain this within their environment and learning as they start to implement these things. Um, so I see that to be something that just happens. Um, we saw it was like DevOps, right? You know, engineers were starting to adopt, you know, working on the systems versus just, you know, working on software. Um, so it's sort of like encompassing all the things, right. We're, we're seeing a shift in the role and, and the behaviors that are within it in order to maintain these cloud native services. So >>Ricardo, what's your take, we've been seeing engineers get to the front lines more and more. Uh, you guys mentioned business value as one of the tracks and, uh, focus topics this year, it's happening, engineers and developers. They're getting in the front lines cuz as you move up that stack, whether it's a headless system for retail or deploying something in another sector, they gotta be in the front lines. If you're gonna be in doing machine learning and have data, you gotta have domain scales about what the business is. Right? >>Yeah. I, I, I agree very much with what Jasmine said and, and uh, if we add this for, for kind of the business value and the, this opportu opportunistic usage of, uh, all types of resources that can come from basically anywhere these days, I think this is, this is really becoming, um, a real role to, to understand how, how to best, uh, use all of this and uh, to, to make the best of all this available resources. When we start talking about, uh, CPUs, it's already important. If we start talking about GPU's, which are more scar or some sort of specialized accelerators, then, then it becomes really like something that, uh, you, you need people that know where, where to go and fish for those. Cause they, they, you can just build your own data center and, and scale that anymore. So you really need to understand what's out there. >>Applications gotta have the security posture nailed down. They gotta have it. Automation built in. You gotta have the observability, you gotta have the business value. I mean, it sounds like a mature industry developing here finally. It's happening. Good job guys. Thanks for coming on the queue. Really appreciate it. >>Thank you. Thank you for having >>Us. And we'll see the cube here at Koon cloud native con May 16th through the 20th in Vale Spain, the cube will be there. We'll have some online coverage as well. Look for the virtual from CNCF. The cube will bring all the, all the action. I'm John fur, your host, see you in Spain and see you on the 16th.

(upbeat music) >> Kubernetes is maturing for example moving from quarterly releases to three per year, it's adding many of the capabilities that early on were avoided by Kubernetes committers, but now are going more mainstream, for example, more robust security and better support from mobile cluster management and other functions. But core Kubernetes by itself, doesn't get organizations where they need to go. That's why the ecosystem has stepped up to fill the gaps in application development. Developers as we know, they don't care about infrastructure, but they do care about building new apps, they care about modernizing existing apps, leveraging data, scaling, they care about automation look, they want to be cloud native. And one of the companies leading the ecosystem charge and building out more robust capabilities is Red Hat. And ahead of KubeCon Spain. It's our pleasure to welcome in Stu Miniman director of market insights at Red Hat to preview the event, Stu, good to see you, how you been? >> I'm doing awesome, Dave. Thanks for having me, great to be here. >> Yeah. So what's going on in Kube land these days? >> So it's funny Dave, if you were to kind of just listen out there in the marketplace, the CNCF has a survey that's like 96% of companies running Kubernetes production, everybody's doing it. And others will say, oh no, Kubernetes, only a small group group of people are using it, it's already probably got newer technologies that's replacing it. And the customers that I'm talking to Dave, first of all, yes, containers of Kubernetes, great growth growth rate, good adoption overall, I think we've said more than a year or two ago, we've probably crossed that chasm, the Jeff Moore, it's longer the early people just building all their own thing, taking all the open source, building this crazy stack that they need to had to do a lot of work we used to say. Chewing glass to be able to make it work right or anything, but it's still not as easy as you would like, almost no company that I talk to, if you're talking about big enterprises has Kubernetes just enterprise wide, and a hundred percent of their applications running on it. What is the tough challenge for people? And I mean, Dave, something, you and I have covered for many, many years, , that application portfolio that I have, most enterprises, hundreds, thousands of applications modernizing that having that truly be cloud native, that that's a really long journey and we are still in the midst of that, so I still still think we are in that, that if you look at the cross in the chasm that early majority chunk, so some of it is how do we mature things even better? And how do we make things simpler? Talk about things like automation, simplicity, security, we need to make sure they're all there so that it can be diffused and rolled out more broadly. And then we also need to think about where are we? We talk about the next million cloud customers, where does Kubernetes and containers and all the cloud native pieces fit into that broader discussion. Yes, there's some maturity there and we can declare victory on certain things, but there's still a lot, a lot of work that everyone's doing and that leads us into the show. I mean, dozens of projects that are already graduated, many more along that process from sandbox through a whole bunch of co-located events that are there, and it's always a great community event which Red Hat of course built on open source and community projects, so we're happy to have a good presence there as always. >> So you and I have talked about this in the past how essentially container's going to be embedded into a lot of different places, and sometimes it's hard to find, it's hard to track, but if you look at kind of the pre DevOps world skillsets like provisioning LANs, or configuring ports, or troubleshooting, squeezing more, server utilism, I mean, those who are really in high demand. If that's your skillset, then you're probably out of a job today. And so that's shifted toward things like Kubernetes. So you see and you see in the ETR data, it's along with cloud, and RPA, or automation, it is right up there I mean, it's top, the big four if you will, cloud, automation, RPA, and containers. And so we know there's a lot of spending activity going on there, but sometimes, like I said, it's hard to track I mean, if you got cloud growing at 35% a year, at least for the hyperscalers that we track, Kubernetes should be growing faster than that, should it not? >> Yeah, Dave, I would agree with you when I look at the big analyst firms that track this, I believe they've only got the container space at about a 25 per percent growth rate. >> Slower than cloud. But I compare that with Deepak Singh who runs at AWS, he has the open source office, he has all the containers and Kubernetes, and has visibility in all of that. And he says, basically, containers of the default when somebody's deploying to AWS today. Yes, serverless has its place, but it has not replaced or is not pushing down, slowing down the growth of containers or Kubernetes. We've got a strong partnership, I have lots of customers running on AWS. I guess I look at the numbers and like you, I would say that I would expect that that growth rate to be north of where just cloud in general is because the general adoption of containers and Kubernetes, we're still in the early phases of things. >> And I think a lot of the spendings Stu is actually in labor resources within companies and that's hard to track. Let's talk about what we should expect at the show. Obviously this whole notion of secure supply chain was a big deal last year in LA, what's hot? >> Yeah, so security Dave, absolutely. You said for years, it's a board level discussion, it's now something that really everyone in the organization has to know about the dev sec ops movement, has seen a lot of growth, secure supply chain, we're just trying to make sure that when I use open source, there's lots of projects, there is the huge ecosystem in marketplaces that are out there. So I want to make sure that as I grab all of the pieces that I know where they got came from the proper signature certification to make sure that the full solution that I build, I understand it. And if there are vulnerabilities, I know if there's an issue, how I patch it in the industry, we talk about CBEs, so those vulnerabilities, those exploits that come out, then everybody has to do a quick runaround to understand wait, hey, is my configuration? Am I vulnerable? Do I have to patch things? So security, absolutely still a huge, huge thing. Quick from a Red Hat standpoint, people might notice we made an acquisition a year ago of StackRox. That product itself also now has a completely fully open source project itself, also called StackRox. So the product is Red Hat advanced cluster security for Kubernetes, there's an open source equivalent for that called StackRox now, open source, community, there's a monthly office hour live streaming that a guy on my team actually does, and so there'll be a lot of activity at the show talking about security. So many other things happening at the show Dave. Another key area, you talked about the developers and what they want to worry about and what they don't. In the container space, there's a project called Knative. So Google helped create that, and that's to help me really have a serverless operational model, with still the containers and Kubernetes underneath that. So at the show, there will be the firs Knative con. And if you hadn't looked at Knative in a couple of years, one of the missing pieces that is now there is eventing. So if I look at functions and events, now that event capability is there, it's something I've talked to a lot of customers that were waiting for that to have it. It's not quite the same as like a Lambda, but is similar functionality that I can have with my containers in Kubernetes world. So that's an area that's there and so many others, I mean, GitOps are super hot at the last show. It's something that we've seen, really broad adoption since Argo CD went generally available last year, and lots of customers that are taking that to help them. That's both automation put together because I can allow GitHub to be my single source of truth for where I keep code, make sure I don't have any deviation from where the kind of the golden image if you will, it lives. >> So we're talking earlier about, how hard it is to track this stuff. So with the steep trajectory of growth and new customers coming on, there's got to be a lot of experimentation going on. That probably is being done, somebody downloads the open source code and starts playing with it. And then when they go to production that I would imagine Stu that's the point at which they say, hey, we need to fill some of these gaps. And they reach out to a company like yours and say, now we got to have certifications and trust., Do you. see that? >> So here's the big shift that happened, if we were looking four or five years ago, absolutely, I'd grab the open source code and some people might do that, but what cloud really enabled Dave, is rather than just grabbing, going to the dot the GitHub repo and pulling it down itself, I can go to the cloud so Microsoft, AWS, and Google all have their Kubernetes offering and I click a button. But that just gives me Kubernetes so there's still a steep learning curve. And as you said to build out out that full stack, that is one of the big things that we do with OpenShift is we take dozens of projects, pull them in together so you get a full platform. So you spend less time on curating, integrating, and managing that platform. And more time on the real value for your business, which is the application stack itself, the security and the like. And when we deliver OpenShift in the cloud, we have an SRE team that manages that for you. So one of the big challenges we have out there, there is a skillset gap, there are thousands of people getting certified on Kubernetes. There are, I think I saw over a hundred thousand job openings with Kubernetes mentioned in it, we just can't train people up fast enough, and the question I would have as an enterprise company is, if I'm going to the cloud, how much time do I want to build having SREs, having them focus on the infrastructure versus the things that are business specific. What did Amazon promise Dave? We're going to help you get rid of undifferentiated heavy lifting. Well, I just consume things as a service where I have an SRE team manage that environment. That might make more sense so that I can spend more time focusing on my business activities. That's a big focus that we've had on Red Hat, is our offerings that we have with the cloud providers to do and need offering. >> Yeah, the managed service capability is key. We saw, go back to the Hadoop days, we saw that's where Cloudera really struggled. They had to support every open source project. And then the customers largely had to figure it out themselves. Whereas you look at what data bricks did with spark. It was a managed service that was getting much greater adoption. So these complex areas, that's what you need. So people win sometimes when I use the term super cloud, and we getting little debates on Twitter, which is a lot of fun, but the idea is that you create the abstraction layer that spans your on-prem, your cloud, so you've got a hybrid. You want to go across clouds, what people call multi-cloud but as you know, I've sort of been skeptical of multi-cloud is really multi-vendor. But so we're talking about a substantial experience that's identical across those clouds and then ultimately out to the edge and we see a super Paas layer emerging, And people building on top of that, hiding the underlying complexity. What are your thoughts on that? How does Kubernetes in your view fit in? >> Yeah, it's funny, Dave, if you look at this container space at the beginning, Docker came out of a company called dotCloud. That was a PaaS company. And there's been so many times that that core functionality of how do I make my developers not have to worry about that underlying gank, but Dave, while the storage people might not have to worry about the LANs, somebody needs to understand how storage works, how networking works, if something breaks, how do I make sure I can take care of it. Sometimes that's a service that the SRE team manages that away from me. so that yes, there is something I don't need to think of about, but these are technically tough configurations. So first to one of your main questions, what do we see in customers with their hybrid and multi-cloud journey? So OpenShift over 10 years old, we started OpenShift before Kubernetes even was a thing. Lots of our customers run in what most people would consider hybrid, what does that mean? I have something in my data center, I have something in the cloud, OpenShift health, thanks to Kubernetes, I can have consistency for the developers, the operators, the security team, across those environments. Over the last few years, we've been doing a lot in the Kubernetes space as a whole, as the community, to get Kubernetes out to the edge. So one of the nice things, where do containers live Dave? Anywhere Linux does, is Linux going to be out of the edge? Absolutely, it can be a small footprint, we can do a lot with it. There were a lot of vendors that came out with it wasn't quite Kubernetes, they would strip certain things out or make a configuration that was smaller out at the edge, but a lot of times it was something that was just for a developer or something I could play with, and what it would break sometimes was that consistency out at the edge to what my other environments would like to have. And if I'm a company that needs consistency there. So take for example, if I have an AI workload where I need edge, and I need something in the cloud, or in my data center of consistency. So the easy use case that everybody thinks about is autonomous vehicles. We work with a lot of the big car manufacturers, I need to have when my developer build something, and often my training will be done either in the data center or in the public cloud, but I need to be able to push that out to the vehicle itself and let it run. We've actually even got Dave, we've got Kubernetes running up on the ISS. And you want to make sure that we have a consistency. >> The ultimate edge. >> Yeah, so I said, right, it's edge above and beyond the clouds even, we've gone to beyond. So that is something that the industry as a whole has been working at, from a Red Hat standpoint, we can take OpenShift to a really small footprint. Last year we launched was known as single node OpenShift. We have a project called micro shift, which is also fully open source that it has less pieces of the overall environment to be able to fit onto smaller and smaller devices there. But we want to be able to manage all of them consistently because you talked about multi cluster management. Well, what if I have thousands or 10 of thousands of devices out of the edge? I don't necessarily have network, I don't have people, I need to be able to do things from an automated standpoint. And that's where containers and Kubernetes really can shine. And where a lot of effort has been done in general and something specifically, we're working on it, Red Hat, we've had some great customers in the telecommunication space. Talk about like the 5G rollout with this, and industrial companies that need to be able to push out at the edge for these type of solutions. >> So you just kind of answered my next question, but I want to double click on it which was, if I'm in the cloud, why do I need you? And you touched on it because you've got primitives, and APIs, and AWS, Google, and Microsoft, they're different, if you're going to hide the underlying complexity of that, it takes a lot of RND and work, now extend that to a Tesla. You got to make it run there, different use case, but that's kind of what Linux and OpenShift are design to do, so double click on that. >> Yeah, so right. If I look at the discussion you've been having about super clouds is interesting because there are many companies that we work with that do live across multiple environments. So number one, if I'm a developer, if my company came to me and said, hey, you've got all your certifications and you got years of experience running on Amazon, well, we need you to go run over on Google. That developer might switch companies rather than switch clouds because they've got all of their knowledge and skillset, and it's a steep learning curve. So there's a lot of companies that work on, how can we give you tools and solutions that can live across those environments? So I know you mentioned companies like Snowflake, MongoDB, companies like Red Hat, HashiCorp, GitLab, also span all of those environments. There's a lot of work, Dave, to be different than not just, I say, I don't love the term like we're cloud agnostic, which would mean, well, you can use any cloud. >> You can run on any cloud. >> That's not what we're talking about. Look at the legacy that Red Hat has is, Red Hat has decades of running in every customer's data center and pick your X 86 server of choice. And we would have deep relationships when Dell, HP, IBM, Lenovo, you name it, comes out with a new piece of hardware that was different. We would have to make sure that the Linux primitives work from a Red Hat standpoint. Interesting Dave, we're now supporting OpenShift on Azure Stack Hub. And I talked to our head of product management, and I said, we've been running OpenShift in Azure for years, isn't Azure Stack Hub? Isn't that just Azure in your data center. He's like, yeah, but down at the operating system level, we had to change some flags and change some settings and things like that, so what do we know in IT? It's always the yeah, at the high level, it looks the same, it acts the same, it feels the same. >> Seamless. >> It's seamless in everything when you get down to the primitives level, sometimes that we need to be able to do that. I'll tell you Dave, there's things even when I look at A cloud, if I'm in US East One, or US West One, there actually could be some differences in what services are there or how things react, and so therefore we have a lot of deep work that goes into all of those environments, and it's not just Red Hat, we have a marketplace and an ecosystem, we want to make sure you've got API compatibility across all of those. So we are trying to help lift up this entire ecosystem and bring everybody along with it because you set it at the upfront, Kubernetes alone won't do it, oo one vendor gives you an entire, everything that you need for your developer tool chain. There's a lot that goes into this, and that's where we have deep commitment to partnerships. We build out and support lots of ecosystems. And this show itself is very much a community driven show. And, and therefore, that's why Red Hat has a strong presence at it, 'cause that's the open source community and everything that we built on. >> You guys are knee deep in it. You know I wrote down when you were talking about Snowflake and Mongo, HashiCorps, another one, I wrote down Dell, HP, Cisco, Lenovo, that to me, that should be their strategy. NetApp, their strategy should be to basically build out that abstraction layer, the so-called super cloud. So be interesting to see if they're going to be at this show. It requires a lot of R and D number one, number two, to your point, it requires an ecosystem. So you got all these guys, most of them now do in their own as a service, as a service is their own cloud. Their own cloud means you better have an ecosystem that's robust. I want to ask you about, do you ever think about what's next beyond Kubernetes? Or do you feel like, hey, there's just so much headroom in Kubernetes and so many active projects, we got ways to go. >> Yeah, so the Kubernetes itself Dave, should be able to fade into the background some. In many ways it does mirror what happened with Linux. So Linux is just the foundation of everything we have. We would not have the public cloud providers if it wasn't for Linux. I mean, Google, of course you wouldn't have without Linux, Amazon. >> Is on the internet. >> Right, but you might not have a lot of it. So Kubernetes, I think really goes the same way is, it is the foundational layer of what so much of it is built on top of it, and it's not really. So many people think about that portability. Oh, Google's the one that created it, and they wanted to make sure that it was easy if I want to go from the cloud provider that I had to use Kubernetes on Google cloud. And while that is a piece of it, that consistency is more important. And what I can build on top of it, it is really more of a distributed systems challenge that we are solving and that we've been working on in industry now for decades. So that is what we help solve, and what's really nice, containers and Kubernetes, it's less of an abstraction, it's more of new atomic unit of how we build things. So virtualization, I don't know what's underneath, and we spent like a decade fixing the storage networking components underneath so that the LANs matched right, and the network understood what was happening in the virtual machine. The atomic unit of a container, which is what Kubernetes manages is an application or a piece of an application. And therefore that there is less of an abstraction, more of just a rearchitecting of how we build things, and that is part of what is needed, and boy, Dave, the ecosystem, oh my God, yes, we've gone to only three releases a year, but I can tell you our roadmaps are all public on the internet and we talk heavily about them. There is still so many things that just at the basic Kubernetes piece, new architectures, arm devices are now in there, we're now supporting them, Kubernetes can support them too. So there are so many hardware pieces that are coming, so many software devices, the edge, we talked about it a bit, so there's so much that's going on. One of the areas that I love hearing about at the show, we have a community event called OpenShift Comments, which one of the main things of OpenShift Comments, is customers coming to talk about what they've been doing, and not about our products, we're talking about the projects and their journey overall. We've got a at Flenty Show, Airbus and Telefonica, are both going to be talking about what they're doing. We've seen Dave, every industry is going through their digital transformation journey. And it's great to hear straight from them what they're doing, and one of the big pieces in area, we actually spend a bunch of time on that application journey. There's a group of open source projects under what's known as Konveyor, that's conveyor with a K, Konveyor.io. It's modernization in migration. So how do I go from a VM to a container? How do I go from my data center to a cloud? How do I switch between services, open source projects to help with that journey? And, oh my gosh, Dave, I mean, you know in the cloud space, I mean that's what all the SIs and all the consultancies are throwing thousands of people at, is to help us get along that curve of that modernization journey. >> Okay, so let's see May 16th, the week of May 16th is KubeCon in Valencia Spain. theCUBE's going to be there, there was a little bit of a curfuffle on Twitter because the mask mandate was lifted in Spain and people had made plans thinking, okay, it's safe everybody's going to be wearing masks. Well, now I mean, you're going to have to make your own decisions on that front. I mean, you saw that you follow Twitter quite closely, but hey, this is the world we live in. So I'll give you the last word. >> Yeah, we'll see if Twitter still exists by the time we get to that show with. >> Could be private. What happens, but yeah, no, Dave, I'll be participating remotely, it is a hybrid event, so one of the things we'll be watching is, how many people are there in person LA was a pretty small show, core contributors, brought it back to some of the early days that you covered heavily from theCUBE standpoint, how Valencia will be? I know from Red Hat standpoint, we have people there, many of them from Europe, both speaking, we talked about many of the co-located events that are there, so a lot of pieces all participate remotely. So if you stop by the OpenShift commons event, I'll be part of the event just from a hybrid standpoint. And yeah, we've actually got the week before, we've got Red Hat Summit. So it's nice to actually to have back to back weeks. We'd had that a whole bunch of times before I remember, back to back weeks in Boston one year where we had both of those events and everything. That's definitely. >> Connective tissue. >> Keeps us busy there. You've got a whole bunch of travel going on. I'm not doing too much travel just yet, Dave, but it's good to see you and it's great to be connected with community. >> Yeah, so theCUBE will be there. John Furrier is hosting with Keith Townsend. So if you're in Valencia, definitely stop by. Stu thanks so much for coming into theCUBE Studios I appreciate it. >> Thanks, Dave. >> All right, and thank you for watching. We'll see you the week of May 16th in Valencia, Spain. (upbeat music)

right so with kubernetes the history is we started off with only file systems block is something very new within the past couple releases that actually personally worked on the next piece that we're doing at Red Hat is leading the charge to create CRTs for object storage so it's defining those api's so customers can dynamically provision and manage their object storage with that in addition we recently acquired a company called nuba that does exactly that they're able to have that data mobility through object buckets across many clouds doing the sharding and replication with the ability to do and that's super important because it opens up for our customers to have image streams photos things like that that they typically use within an enterprise and quickly move the data and copy it as they as they need to so we notice that that more and more people want to try their workloads outside of the centralized one centralized data cluster so the big you know term for the last year was the hybrid cloud but it's not just hybrid cloud people coming from also from the iot user space wants to you know containerize their work clothes what wants to put the processing closer and closer to the devices that are actually producing and consuming those data in the users and there is a lot of use cases which should be tackled in in that way and as you all said previously like you Burnett is want developers hearts and minds so api's are stable everybody is using them it will be supported for decades so it's it's natural to try to bring all these tools and and all these platforms that are already you know available to developers try to tackle these new new challenges so that's why last year we reformed the kubernetes at the edge working group trying to you know start with the simple questions because when people come to you and say edge everybody thinks something different from somebody it's in IOT gateway for somebody it's a it's a full-blown you know kubernetes faster it's some telco providers so that's what we're trying to figure out all these and try to form a community because as we saw in the previous cell so for the IOT user space is that complex problems like these are never basically solved by single single company you need open source you need open standards you need the community around it so that people can pick and choose and build a solution to fit their needs yeah yeah so I care a lot about diversity in tech and women in tech more specifically one of the things that I I feel like this community has a lot of very visible women so when I actually looked at the number of contributors by by men and women I was really shocked to find out it was 3 percents it's kind of disappointing it's 3 percent of all the contributors to the all the projects in the CNCs it's only if you look at the 36 projects you look at the number of the people who've made issues commits comments pull requests it's 3 percent women and I think the CSUF has put a lot of effort into the for example of the diversity scholarships so bringing more than 300 people from underrepresented groups to cube corn including 56 here in Barcelona and it has a personal meaning to me because I really got my start through that diversity scholarship to keep calm Berlin two years ago and when I first came to keep on Berlin I knew nobody but just that little first step can go a long way into getting people into feeling like they're part of the community and they have something valuable to give back and then once you're in you're hooked on it and yeah then there's a lot of fun I think the ecosystem may finally be ready for it and this is I feel like it's easy for us to look at examples of the past you know people kind of shake their heads and OpenStack as a cautionary tale or sprawl and you know whatnot but this is a thriving which means growing which means changing which means a very busy ecosystem but like you're pointing out if your enterprises are gonna adopt some of this technology gee they look at it and everyone here was you know eating cupcakes or whatever for the kubernetes 5th birthday to an enterprise just because this got launched in 2014 you know ok June 2014 that sounds kind of new we're still running that mainframe that is still producing business value and actually that's fine I mean I think this maybe is one of the great things about a company like Microsoft is we are our customers like we also respect the fact that if something works you don't just Yolo a new thing out into production to replace it for what reason what is the business value of replacing it and I think for this that's why this kind of UNIX philosophy of the very modular pieces of this ecosystem and we were talking about how them a little earlier but there's also you know draft brigade you know etc like the porter the C NAB spec implementation stuff and this cloud native application bundles which that's a whole mouthful one of the things I like I've been a long history and open source too is if there are things that aren't perfect or things that are maturing a lot of times we're talking about them in public because there is a roadmap and you know people are working on it and we can all go to the repositories and you know see where people are complaining so at a show like this I feel like we do have some level of transparency and we can actually have realism here we I don't think we hear that as much anymore because there is no more barrier to getting the technology it's no longer I get this technology from vendor a and I wish somebody else would support the standard it's like I can get it if I want it I think the competition we typically have aren't about features anymore they're simply my business is driven by software let that's the way I interact with my customer that's the way I collect data for my customers whatever that is I need to do that faster and I need to teach my people to do that stuff so the technology becomes secondary like I have this saying it frustrates people so nice but I'm like there is not a CEO a CIO a CTO that you would talk to that wakes up and says I have a kubernetes problem they all go I have a I have this business problem I have that problem it happens to be software kubernetes is a detail sure I think the NSM is just a first step so the natural service is basically doing a couple of things one is it is simplifying networking so that the consumption paradigm is similar to what you see on the developer l7 layer so if you think SEO and how SEO is changing the game in terms of how you consume layer seven services think of bringing that down to the layer two layer three layer as well so the way a developer would discover services at the l7 layer is the same way we would want developers to discover networking endpoints or networking services or security capabilities that's number one so the language in which you consume needs to be simplified whereas it's whereby it becomes simple for developer to consume the second thing that I touched upon is we don't want developers to think about switches routers subnets BGP reacts van VLAN for me I want to take a little bit more into the idea of multi cloud I've been making a bit of a stink for the past year with a talk called the myths of multi cloud where it's not something I generally advise as a best practice and I'm holding to that fairly well but what I want to do is I won't have conversations with people who are pursuing multi-cloud strategies and figure out first are they in fact pursuing that the same thing that we're defining our terms and talking on the same page and secondly I want to get a little more context and insight into why they're doing that and what that looks like for them is it they want to be able to run different workloads in different places great that's fair the same workload run everywhere the lowest common denominator well let's scratch build a surface a bit and find out why that is bob wise and his team spent a ton of time working on the community and the whole the whole team does right for one of the the biggest contributors to @cd we're hosting birds of a feather we've committed we've contributed back to a fair amount of community projects and I think a lot of them are in fact around how to just make kubernetes work better on AWS and that might be something that we built because uks or it might be something like the like cluster autoscaler right which ultimately people would like to work better with with auto-scaling groups I think we we had the community involvement but I think it's about having a quiet community involvement right that it's it's about chopping wood and carrying water and being present and committing and showing up and having experts and answering questions and being present and things like say groups than it is necessarily having the biggest booth so Joe tremendous progress in five years look look forward for us a little bit you know what what what does you know kubernetes you know 2024 look like for us well you know a lot of folks like to say that you know in five years kubernetes is going to disappear and sometimes they come at this from the sort of snarky angle but other times I think you know it's gonna disappear in terms of like it's gonna be so boring so solid so assumed that people don't talk about it anymore I mean we're here at you know something that you know the the CNC F is part of the Linux Foundation which is great but you know how often do people really focus on the Linux kernel these days it is so boring so solid there's new stuff going on but like clearly all the exciting stuff all the action all the innovation is happening at higher layers and I think we're gonna see something similar happen with kubernetes over time exciting is being here if you rewind five years and tell me I'm ready in Barcelona with with 7,500 of my best friends I would think you were crazy or from Mars this is amazing and I thank everybody who's here who's made this thing possible we have a ton of work to do you know if you feel like you can't figure out what you need to work on come talk to me and we'll figure it out yet for me I just want to give a big thank you to all the maintain a nurse folks like Tim but also you know some other folks who you may not know their name but they're the ones slogging it out and to get up PRQ you know trying to just you know make the project's work in function day today and we're it not for their ongoing efforts we wouldn't have any of this you [Music]

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon, Europe, 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, we're at the end of two days, wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for two days has been Corey Quinn. Corey, we've gone two days, it's five years of Kubernetes, and everybody's been wondering when are you going to sing happy birthday to Fippy and the Kubernetes team? >> Generally, no one wants to hear me sing more than once, because first, I don't have a great singing voice, but more importantly, I insist on calling it Corey-oki, and it just doesn't resonate with people. The puns don't land as well as you'd hope they would. >> Maybe not singing, but you are a master of limericks, I'm told. >> So they tell me, most are unprintable, but that's a separate argument for another time. >> Alright, so, Corey this is your first time at KubeCon. >> It is. >> In CloudNativeCon, we've done some analysis segments, I thought we've had some phenomenal guests, some great end-users, some thought leaders, >> We had some great times. >> You need to pick your favorite right now. >> Oh, everyone's going to pick their own favorite on this one, but I've got to say it was, it would have to be, hands down, Abby Fuller, from AWS. Not that I didn't enjoy all of our guests -- >> Is it because you have AWS on your Lapel pin, and that secretly you do work for Amazon? >> Hardly, just the opposite, in fact. It's that, given that my newsletter makes fun of AWS on a near constant basis, whenever someone says Oh, there's going to be a public thing with Corey and someone from AWS, half the people there are like, Oh, this is going to be good, and the other half turn ghost white and Oh, no, no, this is going to go awfully. And, I'll be honest, it's been a day now, I still don't know which it was, but we had fun. >> Yeah, so, Abby was phenomenal, loved having her on the program, I'm a sucker for the real transformational stories, I tell you Jeff Brewer from Intuit, there's been many times I do a show and I do like, the first interview, and I'm like, I can go home. Here we hear a company that we know, both of us have used this technology, and really walks us through how that transformation happens, some of the organizational things. They've brought some software in and they're contributing to it, so just many aspects of what I look at in a company that's modernizing and going through those pieces. And those kinds of stories always get me excited. >> That story was incredible, and in fact it's almost starting to turn into a truth and labeling issue, for lack of a better term, because this is the Cloudnative Foundation, the software is designed for things that were more or less born in the cloud, and now we're hearing this entire series of stories on transitioning in. And it almost feels like that's not native anymore, that's effectively something that is migrating in. And that's fantastic, it's a sign of maturity, it's great to see. And it's strange to think of that, that in the terms of the software itself is absolutely Cloudnative, it's not at all clear that the companies that are working with this are themselves. And that's okay, that's not a terrible thing. There was some snark from the keynote today about, here's a way to run web logic in Kubernetes, and half the audience was looking at this with a, Eeee, why would I ever want to do that? Because you're running web logic and you need to continue to run web logic, and you can either sit there and make fun of people, you can help them get to a different place than they are now that helps their business become more agile and improves velocity, but I don't think you can effectively do both. >> Yeah, Corey, anything that's over than 5 years old why would you ever want to do that? Because you must always do things the brand new way. Oh wait, let's consider this for a second, lift and shift is something that I cringe a little bit when I hear it because there's too many times that I would hear a customer say I did this, and I hadn't fully planned out how I was doing it, and then I clawed it back because it was neither cheap nor easy, I swiped that credit card and it wasn't what I expected. >> Yeah, I went ahead and decided to run on a cloud provider now my infrastructure runs on someone else's infrastructure, and then a few months go by, and the transition doesn't happen right, I was wrong, it's not running on someone else's infrastructure, it's running on money. What do I do? And that became something that was interesting for a lot of companies, and painful as well. You can do that, but you need to plan the second shift phase to take longer than you think it will, you will not recoup savings in the time frame you probably expect to, but that's okay because it's usually not about that. It's a capability story. >> I had hoped that we learned as an industry. You might remember the old phrase, my mess for less? By outsourcing, and then we'll, Oh wait, I put it in an environment, they don't really understand my business, I can't make changes in the way I want, I need to insource now my knowledge to be able to work close with the business, and therefore no matter where I put my valuable code, my valuable information and I run stuff, I'm responsible for it and even if I move it there as a first step, I need to make sure how do I actually optimize it for that environment from a cost savings, there's lots of things that I can to change those kind of things. >> The one cautionary tale I'm picking up from a lot of these stories has been that you need to make sure the people you're talking to, and the trusted advisors that you have are aligned with your incentives, not their own. No matter where you go, there's an entire sea of companies that are thrilled and lined up to sell you something. And that's not inherently a bad thing, but you need to understand that whenever you're having those conversations, there's a potential conflict of interest. Not necessarily an actual one, but pay attention. You can partner with someone, but at some point your interests do diverge. >> Okay, Corey, what other key learnings or sound bites did you get from some of our speakers this week? >> There were an awful lot of them. I think that's the first time I've ever seen, for example, a project having pieces removed from it, Tiller, in this case, and a bunch of people clapped and cheered. They've been ripped out of Helm, it's oh awesome, normally the only time you see something get ripped out and people cheer is when they finally fire that person you work with. Usually, that person is me, then everyone claps and cheers, which, frankly, if you've met me, that makes sense. For software, it's less common. But we saw that, we saw two open-source projects merging. >> Yeah. >> We had, it was-- >> Open telemetry is the new piece. >> With open senses and open tracing combining, you don't often see that done in anything approaching a responsible way, but we've seen it now. And there's been a lot of people a little miffed that there weren't a whole bunch of new features and services and what not launched today. That's a sign of maturity. It means that there's a stability story that is now being told. And I think that that's something that's very easy to overlook if you're interested in a pure development perspective. >> Just to give a little bit of a cautionary piece there, we had Mark Shuttleworth on the program, he said Look, there are certain emperors walking around the show floor that have no clothes on. Had Tim talking, Joe Beta, and Gabe Monroy on, some of the earliest people working on Kubernetes and they said Look, five years in, we've reached a certain level of maturity, but Tim Hoggin was like, we have so much to do, our sigs are overrunning with what I need to do now, so don't think we can declare success, cut the cake, eat the donuts, grab the t-shirt, and say great let's go on to the next great thing because there is so much more yet to do. >> There's absolutely a consulting opportunity for someone to set up shop and call it imperial tailoring. Where they're going around and helping these people realize that yes, you've come an incredibly long way, but there is so much more work to be done, there is such a bright future. Now I would not call myself a screaming advocate for virtually any technology, I hope. I think that Kubernetes absolutely has it's place. I don't think it's a Penesea, and I don't think that it is going to necessarily be the right fit for every work load. I think that most people, once you get them calmed down, and the adrenaline has worn off, would largely agree with that sentiment. But that nuance often gets lost in a world of tweets, it's a nuanced discussion that doesn't lend itself well to rapid fire, quick sound bites. >> Corey, another thing I know that is near and dear to your heart they brought in diversity scholarships. >> Yes. >> So 56 people got their pass and travel paid for to come here. There's really good, People in the community are very welcoming, yet in the same breath, when they talked about the numbers, and Cheryl was up on stage saying only three percent of the people contributing and making changes were women. And so, therefore, we still have work to do to make sure that, you've mentioned a couple of times on the program. >> Absolutely, and it is incredibly important, but one of the things that gives me some of the most hope for that is how many companies or organizations would run numbers like that and realize that three percent of their contributors are women, and then mention it during a keynote. That's almost unheard of for an awful lot of companies, instead they wind up going and holding that back. One company we don't need to name, wound up trying to keep that from coming out in a court case as a trade secret, of all things. And that's generally, depressingly, what you would often expect. The fact that they called it out, and the fact that they are having a diversity scholarship program, they are looking at actively at ways to solve this problem is I think the right answer. I certainly don't know what the fix is going to be for any of this, but something has to happen, and the fact that they are not sitting around waiting for the problem to fix itself, they're not casting blame around a bunch of different directions is inspirational. I'm probably not the best person to talk on this, but the issue is, you're right, it is very important to me and it is something that absolutely needs to be addressed. I'm very encouraged by the conversations we had with Cheryl Hung and several other people these last couple of days, and I'm very eager to see where it goes next. >> Okay, Corey, what about any things you've been hearing in the back channel, hallway conversations, any concerns out there? The one from my standpoint where I say, well, security is something that for most of my career was top of mine, and bottom of budget, and from day one, when you talk about containers and everything, security is there. There are a number of companies in this space that are starting to target it, but there's not a lot of VC money coming into this space, and there are concerns about how much real focus there will be to make sure security in this ecosystem is there. Every single platform that this is going to live in, whether you talk the public clouds, talk about companies like Red Hat, and everybody else here, security is a big piece of their message and their focus, but from a CNCF if there was one area that I didn't hear enough about at this show, I thought it might be storage, but feels like we are making progress there, so security's the one I come out with and say I want to know more, I want to see more. >> One thing that I thought was interesting is we spoke to Reduxio earlier, and they were talking about one of their advantages was that they are quote enterprise grade, and normally to me that means we have slides with war and peace written on every one. And instead what they talked about was they have not just security built into this, but they have audit ability, they have an entire, they have data lifecycle policies, they have a level of maturity that is necessary if we're going to start winning some of these serious enterprise and regulated workloads. So, there are companies active in this space. But I agree with you, I think that it is not been a primary area of focus. But if you look at how quickly this entire, I will call it a Kubernetes revolution, because anything else takes on religious overtones, it's been such a fast Twitch type of environment that security does get left behind, because it's never a concern or a priority until it's too late. And then it becomes a giant horses left, barn door's been closed story, and I hope we don't have to learn that. >> So, MultiCloud, Corey, have you changed your mind? >> I don't think so, I still maintain that MultiCloud within the absence of a business reason is not a best practice. I think that if you need to open that door for business reasons then Kubernetes is not a terrible way to go about achieving it. But I do question whether it's something everyone needs to put into their system design principles on day one. >> Okay, must companies be born CloudNative, or can they mature into a CloudNative, or we should be talking a different term maybe? >> I don't know if it's a terminology issue, we've certainly seen companies that were born in on-prem environments where the classic example of this is Capital One. They are absolutely going all in on public cloud, they have been very public about how they're doing it. Transformation is possible, it runs on money and it takes a lot more time and effort than anyone thinks it's going to, but as long as you have the right incentives and the right reason to do things it absolutely becomes possible. That said, it is potentially easier, if you're born in the cloud, to a point. If you get ossified into existing patterns and don't pay attention to what's happening, you look at these companies that are 20 years old, and oh they're so backwards they'll never catch up. If you live that long, that will be you someday. So it's very important to not stop paying attention to what the larger ecosystem is doing, because you don't want to be the only person responsible for levels of your stack that you don't want to have to be responsible for. >> Alright, want to give you the final word. Corey, any final things, any final questions for me? >> Fundamentally I think that this has been an incredible event. Where we've had great conversations with people who are focused on an awful lot of different things. There are still a bunch of open questions. I still, for example, think that Serverless is being viewed entirely too much through a lens of functions as a service, but I'm curious as far as what you took away from this. What did you learn this trip that you didn't expect to learn? >> So, it's interesting when we talk about the changing world of OpenSource. There's been some concern lately that what's happening in the public cloud, well, maybe OpenSource will be imploding. Well, it really doesn't feel that way to me when you talk at this show, we've actually used the line a couple of times, Kubernetes is people. It is not the vendors jested, >> Internet of flesh. >> There are people here. We've all seen people that we know that have passions for what they are doing, and that goes above and beyond where they live. And in this community it is project first, and the company you work for is second or third consideration in there. So, there's this groundswell of activity, we're big believers of the world can be changed if, I don't need everybody's full time commitment, if you could just take two percent of the US's watching of TV in a single year, you could build Wikipedia. Clay Sharky, one of my greats that I love from those environments, we believe that the network and communities really can make huge efforts and it's great to see tech for good and for progress and many of the outcomes of that we see here is refreshingly uplifting to kind of pull us out of some of the day-to-day things that we think about sometimes. >> Absolutely, I think that you're right, it has to come from people, it has to come from community, and so far I'm seeing a lot of encouraging signs. One thing that I do find slightly troubling that may or may not resolve itself is that we're still seeing CloudNative defined in terms of what it's not. That said, this is theCUBE, I am not Stu Miniman. >> Well, I am Stu Miniman, you are Corey Quinn. Corey, how's it been two days on theCUBE wall-to-wall through all these things, ready for a nap or fly home? >> I'm ready to call it a week, absolutely. I'm somewhat surprised that at no point have you hit me. And one of these days I am sure we will cross that border. >> Well, definitely, I try not to have any video or photo evidence of that, but thank you Corey, so much. We do have to make a big shout out, first and foremost to the CloudNative Computing Foundation without their partnership, we would not be able to come here. And we do have sponsorship if you look on the lower thirds of the videos you will see our headline sponsor for this show has been Red Hat. Obviously strong commitment in this community, and will be with us here and also in San Diego for KubeCon. Additional shout out to Cisco, Canonical, and Reduxio for their sponsorship here. And all the people that put on this show here, it's a big community, our team. So I want to make a big shout out to my boys here, coming in I've got Pat, Seth, flying in from the West Coast as well as the Tony Day crew Tony, Steve, and John. Thank you guys, beautiful set here, love the gimble with the logo. Branding here, lot's of spectacle, and we always say check out thecube.com to see all the replays as well, see where we will be, reach out with any questions, and thank you as always, for watching theCUBE. (upbeat jingle)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back, this is theCube getting towards the end of two days live wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019 in Barcelona. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for this week has been Corey Quinn and happy to have on one of our hosts for this week from the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, Dee Kumar, the Vice President of Marketing, also helps with developer relations. Dee, welcome back to the program. >> Thanks for having me. >> And thank you for having us. We've been having a great time this week, a lot of buzz, a lot of people and obviously always a lot of enthusiasm at the show here. Thanks so much. Alright, so your team has been super busy. I've talked with a lot of them leading up to the show. >> That's right. >> Anybody that knows any show of this kind of magnitude know we're usually pretty exhausted before we get on planes and change all the time zones. So, you know, thank you for holding strong. Give us a little bit about, you know, when we talk marketing, you have a big annual report that came out recently from 2018. Give us some of the highlights of some of the things you've been seeing. >> Yeah, sure. Like you mentioned, you're seeing all the excitement and buzz here so this is our largest open-source developer conference, when compared to the last year we did in Copenhagen. So we have close to 8,000 attendees so we're really excited about that. And you're absolutely right, with that comes, we're so exhausted, but we really appreciate. I think the reason the conference has been so successful is primarily just because of the community engagement, which I highlight in the annual report. So it's a combination of our community, which is the developers, the contributors, also our end users, and the third significant portion of our ecosystem is our members. So we recently just announced that CNCF has crossed over 400 members, our end user community is growing, I think Sheryl mentioned this morning in the keynote, we have about 81 end users and this is phenomenal because end of the day, end users are companies who are not commercializing Cloud Native, but essentially they're using these products or technologies internally, so they are essentially the guinea pig of Cloud Native technologies and it's really important to learn from them. >> Well Dee, and actually it's interesting, you know, celebrating the five years of Kubernetes here, I happened to talk to a couple of the OG's of the community, Joe Beta, Tim Hawkin and Gabe Monroy. And I made a comment to Joe, and I'm like, "Well Google started it, but they brought in the Ecosync and pulled in a lot of other vendors too, it's people. And Gabe said, he's like "yeah, I started Deis and I was one of the people >> Absolutely. >> that joined in." So, we said this community is, it's people more than it's just the collection of the logos on the slides. >> Absolutely, I completely agree. And the other thing I also want to point out is a neutral home, like CNCF, it definitely increases contributions. And the reason I say that is, having a neutral home helps the community in terms of engaging and what is really interesting again, going back to the annual report is Google had a leadership role and most of the contributors were from Google, and now with having a neutral home, I think Google has done a phenomenal job to make sure that the contributors are not just limited to Google. And we're seeing all the other companies participating. We're also seeing a new little graph of independent contributors, who are essentially not associated with any companies and they've been again, very active with their comments or their engagement with overall, in terms of, not just limiting to Kubernetes, but all the other CNCF projects. >> So, this is sort of a situation of being a victim of your own success to some extent, but I've mentioned a couple of times today with various other guests, that this could almost be called a conference about Kubernetes and friends, where it feels like that single project casts an awfully long shadow, when you talk to someone who's vaguely familiar with the CNCF, it's "Oh you mean the Kubernetes people?" "Cool, we're on the same page." How do you, I guess from a marketing perspective begin to move out from under that shadow and become something that is more than a single project foundation? >> Yeah, that's a great question, and the way we are doing that is, I think, Kubernetes has become an economic powerhouse essentially, and what it has done is, it's allowed for other start-ups and other companies to come in and start creating new projects and technologies built around Kubernetes, so essentially, now, you're no longer talking about one single project. It's no longer limited to containers or orchestration, or just micro-services, which was the conversation 3 years ago at KubeCon, and today, what you will see is, it's about talking about the ecosystem. So, the way, from a marketing perspective, and it's actually the reality as well, is Kubernetes has now led to other growing projects, it's actually helped other developers come onboard, so now we are seeing a lot more co-ord, a lot more contributions, and now, CNCF has actually become a home to 35+ projects. So when it was founded, we had about 4 projects, and now it's just grown significantly and I think Kubernetes was the anchor tannin, but now we're just talking about the ecosystem as a whole. >> Dee, I'm wondering if it might be too early for this, but do you have a way of measuring success if I'm someone that has rolled out Kubernetes and some of the associated projects? When I talked to the early Kubernetes people, it's like, Kubernetes itself is just an enabler, and it's what we can do with it and all the pieces that go with it, so I don't know that there's spectrums of how are we doing on digital transformation, and it's a little early to say that there's a trillion dollars of benefit from this environm... but, do you have any measure today, or thoughts as to how we can measure the success of everything that comes out of the... >> Yeah, so I think there was Redmont, they published a report last year and it looks like they're in the process of updating, but it is just phenomenal to see, just based on their report, over 50% of fortune 100 companies have started to use Kubernetes in production, and then I would say, more than, I think, to be accurate, 71% of fortune 100 companies are using containers, so I think, right there is a big step forward. Also, if you look at it last year, Kubernetes was the first project to graduate, so one of the ways we also measure, in terms of the success of these projects, is the status that we have within CNCF, and that is completely community driven, so we have a project that's very early stage, it comes in as a sandbox, and then just based on the community growth, it moves onto the next stage, which is incubating, and then, it takes a big deal to graduate, and to actually go to graduation, so we often refer to those stages of the projects to Jeffery Moore, in terms of crossing the chasm. We've talked about that a lot. And again, to answer your question, in terms of how exactly you measure success is just not limited to Kubernetes. We had, this year, a few other projects graduates, we have 6 projects that have graduated within CNCF. >> How do you envision this unfolding in the next 5 years, where you continue to accept projects into the foundation? At some point, you wind up with what will only be described as a sarcastic number of logos on a slide for all of the included projects. How do you effectively get there without having the Cheesecake Factory menu problem of... the short answer is just 'yes', rather than being able to list them off coz no one can hold it all in their head anymore? >> Great question, we're still working on it. We do have a trail map that is a representation of 'where do I get started?', so it's definitely not prescriptive, but it kind of talks about the 10 steps, and it not only talks about it from a technology perspective, but it also talks about processes and people, so we do cover the DevOp, CICD cycle or pipeline. The other thing I would say is, again, we are trying to find other creative ways to move past the logos and landscape, and you're absolutely right, it's now becoming a challenge, but, you know, our members with 400+ members within CNCF. The other way to actually look at it is, back to my earlier point on ecosystems. So one of the areas that we are looking at is, 'okay, now, what next after orchestration?', which is all about Kubernetes is, now I think there's a lot of talks around security, so we're going to be looking at use cases, and also Cloud Native storage is becoming another big theme, so I would say we now have to start thinking more about solutions, solution, the terminology has always existed in the enterprise world for a long time, but it's really interesting to see that come alive on the Cloud Native site. So now we are talking about Kubernetes and then a bunch of other projects. And so now, it's like that whole journey from start to finish, what are the things that I need to be looking at and then, I think we are doing our best with CNCF, which is still a part of a playbook that we're looking to write in terms of how these projects work well together, what are some common use cases or challenges that these projects together can solve. >> So, Dee, we're here at the European show, you think back a few years ago it was a public cloud, there was very much adoption in North America, and starting to proliferate throughout the world. Alibaba is doing well in China and everything. CNCF now does 3 shows a year, you do North America, you do Europe and we've got the one coming up in China. We actually did a segment from our studio previewing the OpenStack Summit, and KubeCon show there, so maybe focus a little bit about Europe. Is there anything about this community and this environment that maybe might surprise people from your annual data? >> Yes, so if you look at... we have a tool called DevStart, it's open source, anyone can look at it, it's very simple to use, and based on that, we kind of monitor, what are the other countries that are active or, not just in terms of consuming, but who are actually contributing. So if you look at it, China is number 2, and therefore our strategy is to have a KubeCon in China. And then from a Euro perspective, I think the third leading country in terms of contributions would be Europe, and therefore, we have strategically figured out where do we want to host our KubeCon, and in terms of our overall strategy, we're pretty much anchoring to those 3 regions, which is North America, Europe as well as China. And, the other thing that we are also looking at is, we want to expand our growth in Europe as well, and now we have seen the excitement here at our KubeCon Barcelona, so we are looking to offer some new programs, or, I would say, new event types outside of KubeCon. Kind of you want to look at it as mini KubeCons, and so those would explore more in terms of different cities in Europe, different cities in other emerging markets as well. So that's still in the works. We're really excited to have, I would say 2 new event types that we're exploring, to really get the community to run and drive these events forward as well, outside of their participation in KubeCon because, oftentimes, I hear that a developer would love to be here, but due to other commitments, or, their not able to travel to Europe, so we really want to bring these events local to where they are, so that's essentially a plan for the next 5 years. >> It's fascinating hearing you describe this, because, everything you're saying aligns perfectly with what you'd expect from a typical company looking to wind up, building adoption, building footprints etc., Only, you're a foundation. Your fundamental goal at the end of it is user engagement, of people continuing to participate in the community, it doesn't turn into a 'and now, buy stuff', the only thing you have for sale here that I've noticed is a T-shirt, there's no... Okay, you also have other swag as well, not the important part of the story, I'm curious though, as far as, as you wind up putting all of this together, you have a corporate background yourself, was that a difficult transition to navigate, as far as, getting away from getting people to put money in towards something in the traditional sense, and more towards getting involved in a larger ecosystem and community. >> That was a big transition for me, just having worked on the classic B2B commercial software side, which is my background, and coming in here, I was just blown away with how people are volunteering their time and this is not where they're getting compensated for their time, it's purely based on passion, motivation and, when I've talked to some key community organizers or leaders who have done this for a while, one of the things that has had an impact on me is just the strong core values that the communities exhibit, and I think it's just based on that, the way they take a project and then they form a working group, and then there are special interest groups that get formed, and there is a whole process, actually, under the hood that takes a project from where Kubernetes was a few years ago, and where it is today, and I think it's just amazing to see that it's no longer corporate driven, but it's more how communities have come together, and it's also a great way to be here. Oftentimes... gone are the days where you try to set up a meeting, people look forward to being at KubeCon and this is where we actually get to meet face-to-face, so it's truly becoming a networking event as well, and to build these strong relationships. >> It goes even beyond just users, I mean, calling this a user conference would not... it would be doing it a bit of disservice. You have an expo hall full of companies that are more or less, in some cases, sworn enemies from one another, all coexisting peacefully, I have seen no fist-fights in the 2 days that we've been here, and it's fascinating watching a community effort get corporate decision makers and stakeholders involved in this, and it seems that everyone we've spoken to has been having a good time, everyone has been friendly, there's not that thousand yard stare where people are depressed that you see in so many other events, it's just something I've never experienced before. >> You know, that's a really amazing thing that I'm experiencing as well. And also, when we do these talks, we really make it a point to make sure that it's not a vendor pitch, and I'm not being the cop from CNCF policing everyone, and trying to tell them that, 'hey, you can't have a vendor pitch', but what I'm finding is, even vendors, just did a silverless talk with AWS, and he's a great speaker, and when he and I were working on the content, he in fact was, "you know, you're putting on that hat", and he's like, "I don't want to talk about AWS, I really want to make sure that we talk about the underlying technology, focusing on the projects, and then we can always build on top, the commercial aspect of it, and that's the job for the vendor. So, I think it's really great collaboration to see how even vendors put on the hat of saying, 'I'm not here to represent my products, or my thing', and of course they're here to source leads and stuff, but at the end of the day, the underlying common protocol that's already just established without having explicit guidelines saying, 'this is what you need to be following or doing', it's just like an implicit understanding. Everyone is here to promote the community, to work with the community, and again, I think I really want to emphasize on the point that people are very welcoming to this concept of a neutral home, and that really had helped with this implicit understanding of the communities knowing that it's not about a vendor pitch and you really want to think about a project or a technology and how to really use that project, and what are the use cases. >> It's very clear, that message has resonated well. >> Dee, thank you. We've covered a lot of ground, we want to give you the final word, anything else? We've covered the event, we've covered potential little things and the annual report. Any last words you have for us that you want people to take away? >> Not really, I think, like I said, it's the community that's doing the great work. CNCF has been the enabler to bring these communities together. We're also looking at creating a project journey it terms of how these projects come into CNCF, and how CNCF works with the communities, and how the project kind of goes through different stages. Yeah, so there are a lot of great things to come, and looking forward to it. >> Alright, well, Dee, thank you so much for all of the updates, and a big thank you, actually, to the whole CNCF team for all they've done to put this together. We really appreciate the partnership here. For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. Back to wrap 2 days, live coverage, here at KubeCon, Cloud Native Con 2019, Thanks for watching the Cube. >> Thank you.

>> Live, from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe, 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host is Corey Quinn and welcoming back to the program, friend of the program, Brian Gracely who is the Director of Product Strategy at Red Hat. Brian, great to see you again. >> I've been, I feel like I've been in the desert. It's three years, I'm finally back, it's good to be back on theCUBE. >> Yeah well, I feel like we've been traveling parallel paths a lot. TheCUBE goes to a lot of events. We do a lot of interviews but I think when you go to shows, you actually have more back-to-back meetings than we even do, so we feel you in the jet lag and a little bit of exhaustion. Thanks for making time. >> Yeah, it's great. I had dinner with you two weeks ago, I did a podcast with Corey a week ago, and now, due to the magic of the internet, we're all here together in one place. It's good. >> Absolutely. Well Brian, as we know at a show like this we all want to hold hands and sing Kubernetes Kumbaya. It's wonderful to see that all of the old fights of the past have all been solved by software in the cloud. >> They're all good, it's all good. Yeah, somebody said it's a cult. I think I heard Owen Rodgers said it's now officially a cult. Corey, you called it the Greek word for spending lots of money. >> Uh yeah, it was named after the Kubernetes, the Greek god of spending money on cloud services. >> So, Brian, you talk to a lot of customers here. As they look at this space, how do they look at it? There's still times that I hear them, "I'm using this technology and I'm using this technology, "and gosh darn it vendor, "you better get together and make this work." So, open-source, we'd love to say is the panacea, but maybe not yet. >> I don't think we hear that as much anymore because there is no more barrier to getting the technology. It's no longer I get this technology from vendor A and I wish somebody else would support the standard. It's like, I can get it if I want it. I think the conversations we typically have aren't about features anymore, they're simply, my business is driven by software, that's the way I interact with my customer, that's the way I collect data from my customers, whatever that is. I need to do that faster and I need to teach my people to do that stuff. So the technology becomes secondary. I have this saying and it frustrates people sometimes, but I'm like, there's not a CEO, a CIO, a CTO that you would talk to that wakes up and says, "I have a Kubernetes problem." They all go, "I have a, I have this business problem, "I have that problem, it happens to be software." Kubernetes is a detail. >> Yeah Brian, those are the same people 10 years ago had a convergent problem, I never ran across them. >> If you screw up a Kubernetes roll-out, then you have a Kubernetes problem. But it's entertaining though. I mean, you are the Director of Product Strategy, which is usually a very hard job with the notable exception of one very large cloud company, where that role is filled by a post-it note that says simply, yes. So as you talk to the community and you look at what's going on, how are you having these conversations inform what you're building in terms of Openshift? >> Yeah, I mean, strategy you can be one of two things. You can either be really good at listening, or you can have a great crystal ball. I think Red Hat has essentially said, we're not going to be in the crystal ball business. Our business model is there's a lot of options, we will go get actively involved with them, we will go scratch our knees and get scars and stuff. Our biggest thing is, I have to spend a lot of time talking to customers going, what do you want to do? Usually there's some menu that you can offer them right now and it's really a matter of, do you want it sort of half-baked? Are you willing to sort of go through the learning process? Do you need something that's a little more finalized? We can help you do that. And our big thing is, we want to put as many of those things kind of together in one stew, so that you're not having-- Not you Stu, but other stews, thinking about like, I don't want to really think about them, I just want it to be monitored, I want the network to just work, I want scalability built in. So for us it's not so much a matter of making big, strategic bets, it's a matter of going, are we listening enough and piecing things together so they go, yeah, it's pretty close and it's the right level of baked for what I want to do right now. >> Yeah, so Brian, an interesting thing there. There's still quite a bit of complexity in this ecosystem. Red Hat does a good job of giving adult supervision to the environment, but, you know, when I used to think when row came out, it was like, okay, great. Back in the day, I get a CD and I know I can run this. Today here, if I talk to every Kubernetes customer that I run across and say okay, tell me your stack and tell me what service measure you're using, tell me which one of these projects you're doing and how you put them together. There's a lot of variation, so how do you manage that, the scale and growth with the individual configurations that everybody still can do, even if they're starting to do public clouds and all those other things? >> So, it's always interesting to me. I watch the different Keynotes and people will talk about all the things in their stack and why they had problems and this, that, and the other, and I kind of look at it and I'm like, we've solved that problem for you. Our thing is always, and I don't mean that sort of boastfully, but like, we put things together in what we think are pretty good defaults. It's the one probably big difference between Openshift and a lot of these other ones that are here is that we've put all those things together as sort of what we think are pretty good defaults. We allow some flexibility. So, you don't like the monitoring, you don't like Prometheus plugin splunk, that's fine. But we don't make you stand on your head. So for us, a lot of these problems that, our customers don't go, well, we can't figure out the stack, we can't do these things, they're kind of built in. And then their problem becomes okay, can I highly automate that? Did I try and make too many choices where you let me plug things in? And for us, what we've done, is I think if we went back a few years, people could say you guys are too modular, you're too plugable. We had to do that to kind of adapt to the market. Now we've sort of learned over time, you want to be immutable, you want to give them a little less choice. You want to really, no, if you're going to deploy an AWS, you got to know AWS really well. And that's, you know, not to make this a commercial, but that's basically what Openshift four became, was much more opinions about what we think are best practices based on about a thousand customers having done this. So we don't run into as many of pick your stack things, we run into that next level thing. Are we automating it enough? Do we scale it? How do we do statefulness? Stuff like that. >> Yeah, I'm curious in the Keynote this morning they called, you know, Kubernetes is a platform of platforms. Did that messaging resonate with you and your customers? >> Yeah, I think so, I mean, Kubernetes by itself doesn't really do anything, you need all this other stuff. So when I hear people say we deployed Kubernetes, I'm like, no you don't. You know, it's the engine of what you do, but you do a bunch of other stuff. So yeah, we like to think of it as like, we're platform builders, you should be a platform consumer, just like you're a consumer of Salesforce. They're a platform, you consume that. >> Yeah, one of the points made in the Keynote was how one provider, I believe it was IBM, please yell at me if I got that one wrong, talks about using Kubernetes to deploy Kubernetes. Which on the one hand, is super cool and a testament to the flexibility of how this is really working. On the other, it's-- and thus the serpent devours itself, and it becomes a very strange question of, okay, then we're starting to see some weird things. Where do we start, where do we look? Indeed.com for a better job. And it's one of those problems that at some point you just can't manage a head around complexities inside of complexities, but we've been dealing with that for 40 years. >> Yeah, Kubernetes managing Kubernetes is kind of one of those weird words like serverless, you're like what does that mean? I don't, it doesn't seem to, I don't think you mean what you want it to mean. The simplest way we explain that stuff, so... A couple of years ago there was a guy named Brandon Philips who had started a company called CoreOS. He stood up at Kube-- >> I believe you'll find it's pronounce CoreOS, but please, continue. >> CoreOS, exactly. Um, he stood up in the Seattle one when there was a thousand people at this event or 700, and he said, "I've created this pattern, "or we think there's a pattern that's going to be useful." The simplest way to think of it is, there's stuff that you just want to run, and I want essentially something monitoring it and keep it in a loop, if you will. Kubernetes just has that built in. I mean, it's kind of built in to the concept because originally Google said, "I can't manage it all myself." So that thing that he originally came up with or codified became what's now called operators. Operators is that thing now that's like okay, I have a stateful application. It needs to do certain things all the time, that's the best practice. Why don't we just build that around it? And so I think you heard in a lot of the Keynotes, if you're going to run storage, run it as an operator. If you're going to run a database, run it as an operator. It sounds like inception, Kubernetes running-- It's really just, it's a health loop that's going on all the time with a little bit of smarts that say hey, if you fail, fail this way. I always use the example like if I go to Amazon and get RDS, I don't get a DVA, there's no guy that shows up and says, "Hey, I'm your DVA." You just get some software that runs it for you. That's all this stuff is, it just never existed in Kubernetes before. Kubernetes has now matured enough to where they go, oh, I can play in that world, I can make that part of what I do. So it's less scary, it sounds sort of weird, inception-y. It's really just kind of what you've already gotten out of the public cloud now brought to wherever you want it. >> Well, one of the concerns that I'm starting to see as well is there's a level of hype around this. We've had a lot of conversations around Kubernetes today and yesterday, to the point where you can almost call this Kubernetes and friends instead of CloudNativeCon. And everyone has described it slightly differently. You see people describing it as systemd, as a kernel, sometimes as the way and the light, and someone on stage yesterday said that we all are familiar with the value that Kubernetes has brought to our jobs and our lives, is I think was the follow-up to that, which is a little strange. And I got to thinking about that. I don't deny that it has brought value, but what's interesting to me about this is I don't think I've heard two people define its value in the same terminology at all, and we've had kind of a lot of these conversations. >> So obviously not a cult because they would all be on message if it was a cult. >> Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. >> It's a cult with very crappy brand control, maybe. We don't know. >> I always just explain it that like, you know, if I went back 10 years or something, people... Any enterprise said hey, I would love to run like Google or like Amazon. Apparently for every one admin, I can manage a thousand servers and in their own data centers it's like well, I have one guy and he manages five, so I have cloud envy. >> We tried to add a sixth and he was crushed to death. Turns out those racks have size and weight limits. >> That's right, that's right. And so, people, they wanted this thing, they would've paid an arm and a leg for it. You move forward five years from that and it's like oh, Google just gave you their software, it's now available for free. Now what are you going to do with it? I gave you a bunch of power. So yeah, depending on how much you want to drink the Kool-Aid you're like, this is awesome, but at the end of the day you're just like, I just want the stuff that is available to, that's freely, publicly available, but for whatever reason, I can't be all in on one cloud, or I can't be all in on a public cloud, which, you believe in that there's tons of economic value about it, there's just some companies that can't do that. >> And I fully accept that. My argument has always been that it is, I think it's a poor best practice. When you have a constraint that forces you to be in multiple cloud providers, yes, do it! That makes absolute perfect sense. >> Right, if it makes sense, do it. And that's kind of what we've always said look, we're agnostic to that. If you want to run it, if you want to run it in a disconnected mode on a cruise ship, great, if it makes sense for you. If you need to run, you know, like... The other thing that we see-- >> That cruise ship becomes a container ship. >> Becomes a container ship. I had an interesting conversation with the bank last night. I had dinner with the bank. We were talking, they said, look, I run some stuff locally where I'm at, 'cause I have to, and then, we put a ton of stuff in AWS. He told me this story about a batch processing job that cost him like $4 or $5 million today. He does a variant of it in Lambda, and it cost him like $50 a month. So we had this conversation and it's going like, I love AWS, I want to be all in at AWS. And he said, here's my problem. I wake up every morning worried that I'm going to open the newspaper and Amazon, not AWS, Amazon is going to have moved closer into the banking industry than they are today. And so I have to have this kind of backup plan if you will. Backup's the wrong word, but sort of contingency plan of if they stop being my technology partner and they start becoming my competitor, which, there's arguments-- >> And for most of us I'd say that's not a matter of if, but when. >> Right, right. And some people live with it great. Like, Netflix lives with it, right? Others struggle. That guy's not doing multi-cloud in the future, he's just going, I would like to have the technology that allows me if that comes along. I'm not doing it to do it, I'd like the bag built in. >> So Brian, just want to shift a little bit off of kind of the mutli-cloud discussion. The thing that's interest me a lot, especially I've talked to a number of the Openshift customers, it is historically, infrastructure was the thing that slowed me down. We understand, oh, I want to modernize that. No, no wait. The back in thing or you know, provisioning, these kind of things take forever. The lever of this platform has been, I can move faster, I can really modernize my environment, and, whether that's in my data center or in one public cloud and a couple of others, it is that you know, great lever to help me be able to do that. Is that the right way to think about this? You've talked to a lot of customers. Is that a commonality between them? >> I think we see, I hate to give you a vendor answer, but we tend to see different entry points. So for the infrastructure people, I mean the infrastructure people realize in some cases they're slow, and a lot of cases the ones that are still slow, it's 'cause of some compliance thing. I can give you a VM in an hour, but I got to go through a process. They're the ones that are saying, look, my developers are putting stuff in containers or we're downloading, I just need to be able to support that. The developers obviously are the ones who are saying, look, business need, business problem, have budget to do something, That's usually the more important lever. Just faster infrastructure doesn't do a whole lot. But we find more and more where those two people have to be in the room. They're not making choices independently. But the ones that are successful, the ones that you hear case studies about, none of them are like, we're great at building containers. They're great at building software. Development drives it, infrastructure still tends to have a lot of the budget so they play a role in it, but they're not dictating where it goes or what it does. >> Yeah, any patterns you're seeing or things that customers can do to kind of move further along that spectrum? >> I think, I mean there's a couple of things, and whether you fit in this or not, number one, nobody has a container problem. Start with a business problem. That's always good for technology in general, but this isn't a refresh thing, this is some business problem. That business problem typically should be, I have to build software faster. We always say... I've seen enough of these go well and I've seen enough go poorly. There's, these events are great. They're great in the sense of people see that there's progress, there's innovation. They're also terrible because if you walk into this new, you feel like, man, everybody understands this, it must be pretty simple. And what'll happen is they start working on it and they realize, I don't know what I'm doing. Even if they're using Openshift and we made it easy, they don't know what they're doing. And then they go, I'm embarrassed to ask for help. Which is crazy because if you get into open source the community's all there to help. So it's always like, business problem, ask for help early and often, even if it embarrasses you. Don't go after low-hanging fruit, especially if you're trying to get further investment. Spinning up a bunch of web clusters or hello worlds doesn't, nobody cares anymore. Go after something big. It basically forces your organization to be all in. And then the other thing, and this is the thing that's never intuitive to IT teams, is you, at the point where you actually made something work, you have to look more like my organization than yours, which is basically you have to look like a software marketing company, because internally, you're trying to convince developers to come use your platform or to build faster or whatever, you actually have to have internal evangelist and for a lot of them, they're like, dude, marketing, eh, I don't want anything to do with that. But it's like, that's the way you're going to get people to come to your new way of doing things. >> Great points, Brian. I remember 15 years ago, it was the first time I was like wait, the CIO has a marketing person under him to help with some of those transformations? Some of the software roles to do. >> Yeah, it's the reason they all want to come and speak at Keynotes and they get at the end and they go, we're hiring. It's like, I got to make what I'm doing sound cool and attract 8,000 people to it. >> Well absolutely it's cool here. We really appreciate Brian, you sharing all the updates here. >> Great to see you guys again. It's good to be back. >> Definitely don't be a stranger. So for Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. Getting towards the end. Two days live, wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2019. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (rhythmic music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe 2019 Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, we're in Barcelona, Spain and you're watching theCUBE, the worldwide leader in live tech coverage and this is KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. I'm Stu Miniman and my co-host for the two live days of coverage is Mr. Cory Quinn. And joining us was on the main stage yesterday, is Cheryl Hung who is the Director of Ecosystems at the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, or the acronym CNCF. Cheryl, welcome back to the program, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you, I always have a great time with theCUBE. >> So, first of all 7700 people here, one of the things that strikes me is we go to a lot of shows. We even do a decent amount of international shows. The community here is definitely global, and it's not, sometimes it's the same traveling pack, some person's like, "Well not quite as many people here "as were in Seattle." I'm like, well this isn't just the contributors all going and some of their friends and family. We've had on our program, thanks to the CNCF, and for some of the ecosystem, many of the customers here in Europe doing things, when we talk to people involved, it is obvious that it is a global community and it definitely shows here at the event, so great job on that. >> It's something that the CNCF really cares about because it's not just about one country or small set of countries, this is actually a global movement. There are businesses all over the globe that are in the middle of this transformational moment, so it's just really exciting to see it. I mean, I think of myself as being pretty involved with the Cloud Native community, but as I'm walking around the sponsor booths here today, there's a good 40-50% that I'm just not familiar with and that's quite surprising to me. I would've thought I'd knew almost all the companies around here, but it's always really fun to see the new companies coming in. >> Okay, so let's talk for a second about the diversity inclusion. One of the things is bringing in people that might not have been able to come on their own. Can you talk a little bit about that effort? And you've got some connection with that yourself. >> Yeah, yeah, so I care a lot about diversity in tech, and women in tech more specifically. One of the things that, I feel like this community has a lot of very visible women, so when I actually looked at the number of contributors by men and women, I was really shocked to find out it was 3%. It's kind of disappointing when you think about it. >> And what you're saying is it's 3% of all the contributors to all the projects in the CNCF. >> Exactly. If you look at the 36 projects, you look at the number of the people who've made issues, commits, comments, pull requests, it's 3% women and I think the CNCF has put a lot of effort into the, for example, the diversity scholarships, so bringing more than 300 people from under-represented groups to KubeCon, including 56 here in Barcelona, and it has a personal meaning to me because I really got my start through that diversity scholarship to KubeCon Berlin two years ago and when I first came to KubeCon Berlin, I knew nobody. But just that little first step can go a long way into getting people into feeling like they're part of the community and they have something valuable to give back. And then, once you're in, you're hooked on it and yeah, then it's a lot of fun. >> It's been said fairly frequently that talent is evenly distributed, but opportunity is not. As you take a look at the diversity inclusion efforts that the Cloud Native Computing Foundation is embarking on, how do you, what do you start evolving to next, and I ask that as two specific questions: One is do you have a target for next time, other than just larger than 3%? And, secondly, are you looking to actively expand the diversity scholarship program? And if so, how? >> Yeah, the diversity scholarship and the other initiatives around this are long-term initiatives. They're not going to pay off in the next three months; they're going to pay off in two year's time, three year's time. At least that's the hope, that's the goal. So we're always reliant on a lot of our sponsors. I mean, it's kind of a nice time at the moment because there's a lot of effort and willingness to be supportive of diversity in tech, and that means that we can offer more diversity scholarships to more people. But, I sometimes wonder, like I hope that this is not a, I hope that this is not a one-off thing will happen for five years and then people will lose interest. So, I think there are other things that need to happen. And one of the interesting things that I looked at recently is a GitHub survey, this was done in 2017, where they asked men and women how, the last time that you got help in open source, what was the source of that help? And women were, so women were just as likely to say they were interested in contributing, but they were half as likely to say that they had asked on a public forum, like a mailing list, and half as likely to say that they had received unsolicited help. So, I don't think it's something you can just say, right we'll look at individuals and make them do more, this is a community effort. We're all part of the same group of people, that we're trying to do the same, trying to work on the same things, and to do that, we need to get this mindset amongst the community that we need to reach out to more individuals and help them and pull them in, rather than saying well it's up to the CNCF to sort it out. >> Right, so Cheryl, another piece of the ecosystem that you're involved with is the end user piece. We've saw some of the interviews on the stage, as I've mentioned we've had some on the program, talk about the importance and the progress of end user participation in the CNCF. >> Yeah, so the CNCF was set up with these three bodies: the governing board, the technical oversight committee, and the end user community. And in theory, these three should be co-equal in power. At the moment, the end user community is probably lagging behind a little bit, but it's the reason that I joined the CNCF, the reason that my world exists, is to understand what the end users need and get them active and engaged in the community. So, my hope for the end user community is that end users who come in can see, not only the value of using these projects, but there's a path for them into becoming strong technical leaders and having actual influence in the projects beyond users, and then eventually, maybe contributing themselves and becoming leaders. >> Governance of open source projects has always been something of a challenge because it seems that in many respects, the most vocal people are often the ones who are afforded an unfortunate level of control, despite the fact that they may very well not speak for the common case. Instead they start adjudicating and advocating for corner cases. How, it seems that, at this point, based upon the sheer level of engagement you're seeing across enterprises and companies of all sizes, that that is clearly not the case. How do you, I guess, shape an ecosystem that has a healthy perspective on that? >> So, leadership in open source is very different from leadership in a typical corporate hierarchy. And leaders in open source are recognized, not only because of their technical depth and their hands-on contribution, but for their ability to communicate to others and have the empathy and understand what other people need. So, I think that's gone, the people who are seen as leaders in this community have, they've become role models for others and others kind of use that, to earn the actual trust of the community, you have to be very clearly making the right decisions and not doing it because you have an agenda in mind or because your employer wants you to do certain things. So I think that's gone a long way too, making sure that the ecosystem is really healthy and people really feel good about what they're doing. >> Cheryl, last thing is, could you give us for, how are we helping end users get an on-ramp into this community? If you could just give us, kind of, a real quick, what's the CNCF doing, what are some of those on-ramps for those that aren't already on the vote? >> The three big challenges for end users right now are number one, how do I navigate the ecosystem? Number two, how do I hire engineers? And number three, how do I make sure that my business strategy is aligned with Cloud Native? So, navigating the ecosystem is probably the trickiest one because there's so many channels, so many projects, there's no central authority that you can go to and say, I've got this problem, am I doing the right thing? Can you help me get this project, this feature into this project's road map? So, the CNCF has a lot of programs to ensure that end users can meet their peers and especially companies who are, perhaps, 12 months ahead of them, and everybody's trying to go through the same journey right now, everyone has these common challenges. So if they can figure them out together and solve them together, then it just saves a lot of time and effort for everybody. On the hiring piece, the CNCF does a lot around marketing and PR and brand awareness and there's companies here who have a booth, who are not selling their products at all, they're just here because they want to be in front of the engineers who are most involved with open source and Kubernetes, and so the CNCF facilitates that, and to some extent, subsidizes these end users to be at KubeCon. And then the third challenge is aligning your business strategy with Cloud Native. So, end users want to know these projects have longevity. They're going to be here in five year's or 10 year's time, and so for companies that want to get involved into that next level, for example running on that technical oversight committee or being on the governing board, the CNCF can help end users become, have that level of impact and have that level of engagement within the community. >> Alright so Cheryl, last word, any advice for people? What's the hottest job out there, that people are looking for? >> I've previously managed DevOps engineering teams and finding people with real Kubernetes production experience right now is just really hard. And I would say that the first thing that you should do, if you have no experience at all in it, is look at the training programs, for example the CKA, Certified Kubernetes Administrator. You don't have to get a certification, but if you look at the curriculum and go through it step by step, you can understand the basic concepts and after that point, get the production experience. There's no substitute to a year or two years of really running applications and monitoring and scaling them in production and dealing with fires. So, once you get to that point, it's a great place to be. >> Alright, well you heard it here. Cheryl, thanks so much for sharing everything with the ecosystem diversity inclusion. Really appreciate the updates. >> Thank you, really good to speak to you. >> For Cory Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman. Coming back with, getting towards the end of two days of live coverage here. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(upbeat techno music) >> Live from Barcelona Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back, this is The Cube's coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019. I'm Stu Miniman with Corey Quinn as my cohost, even though he says kucon. And joining us on this segment, we're not going debate how we pronounce certain things, but I will try to make sure that I get Bridget Kromhout correct. She is a Principle Cloud Advocate at Microsoft. Thank you for coming back to The Cube. >> Thank you for having me again. This is fun! >> First of all I do have to say, the bedazzled shirt is quite impressive. We always love the sartorial, ya know, view we get at a show like this because there are some really interesting shirts and there is one guy in a three-piece suit. But ya know-- >> There is, it's the high style, got to have that. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Bringing some class to the joint. >> Wearing a suit is my primary skill. (laughing) >> I will tell you that, yes, they sell this shirt on the Microsoft company store. And yes, it's only available in unisex fitted. Which is to say much like Alice Goldfuss likes to put it, ladies is gender neutral. So, all of the gentleman who say, but I have too much dad bod to wear that shirt! I say, well ya know get your bedazzlers out. You too can make your own shirt. >> I say it's not dad bod, it's a father figure, but I digress. (laughing) >> Exactly! >> Alright, so Bridget you're doing some speaking at the conference. You've been at this show a few times. Tell us, give us a bit of an overview of what you're doing here and your role at Microsoft these days. >> Absolutely. So, my talk is tomorrow and I think that, I'm going to go with its a vote of confidence that they put your talk on the last day at 2:00 P.M. instead of the, oh gosh, are they trying to bury it? But no, it's, I have scheduled enough conferences myself that I know that you have to put some stuff on the last day that people want to go to, or they're just not going to come. And my talk is about, and I'm co-presenting with my colleague, Jessica Deen, and we're talking about Helm 3. Which is to say, I think a lot of times it would, with these open-sourced shows people say, oh, why do you have to have a lot of information about the third release of your, third major release of your project? Why? It's just an iterative release. It is, and yet there are enough significant differences that it's kind of valuable to talk about, at least the end user experience. >> Yeah, so it actually got an applause in the keynote, ya know. (Bridget laughing) There are certain shows where people are hootin' and hollerin' for every, different compute instance that that is released and you look at it a little bit funny. But at the keynote there was a singular moment where it was the removal of Tiller which Corey and I have been trying to get feedback from the community as to what this all means. >> It seems, from my perspective, it seemed like a very strange thing. It's, we added this, yay! We added this other thing, yay! We're taking this thing and ripping it out and throwing it right into the garbage and the crowd goes nuts. And my two thoughts are first, that probably doesn't feel great if that was the thing you spent a lot of time working on, but secondly, I'm not as steep in the ecosystem as perhaps I should be and I don't really know what it does. So, what does it do and why is everyone super happy to con sine it to the dub rubbish bin of history? >> Right, exactly. So, first of all, I think it's 100% impossible to be an expert on every single vertical in this ecosystem. I mean, look around, KubeCon has 7,000 plus people, about a zillion vendor booths. They're all doing something that sounds slightly, overlapping and it's very confusing. So, in the Helm, if you, if people want to look we can say there's a link in the show notes but there, we can, people can go read on Helm.sh/blog. We have a seven part, I think, blog series about exactly what the history and the current release is about. But the TLDR, the too long didn't follow the link, is that Helm 1 was pretty limited in scope, Helm 2 was certainly more ambitious and it was born out of a collaboration between Google actually and a few other project contributors and Microsoft. And, the Tiller came in with the Google folks and it really served a need at that specific time. And it was, it was a server-side component. And this was an era when the Roll by Stacks has control and Kubernetes was, well nigh not existent. And so there were a lot of security components that you kind of had to bolt on after the fact, And once we got to, I think it was Kubernetes 1.7 or 1.8 maybe, the security model had matured enough that instead of it being great to have this extra component, it became burdensome to try to work around the extra component. And so I think that's actually a really good example of, it's like you were saying, people get excited about adding things. People sometimes don't get excited about removing things, but I think people are excited about the work that went into, removing this particular component because it ends up reducing the complexity in terms of the configuration for anyone who is using this system. >> It felt very spiritually aligned in some ways, with the announcement of Open Telemetry, where you're taking two projects and combining them into one. >> Absolutely. >> Where it's, oh, thank goodness, one less thing that-- >> Yes! >> I have to think about or deal with. Instead of A or B I just mix them together and hopefully it's a chocolate and peanut butter moment. >> Delicious. >> One of the topics that's been pretty hot in this ecosystem for the last, I'd say two years now it's been service matched, and talk about some complexity. And I talk to a guy and it's like, which one of these using? Oh I'm using all three of them and this is how I use them in my environment. So, there was an announcement spearheaded by Microsoft, the Service Mesh Interface. Give us the high level of what this is. >> So, first of all, the SMI acronym is hilarious to me because I got to tell you, as a nerdy teenager I went to math camp in the summertime, as one did, and it was named SMI. It was like, Summer Mathematics Institute! And I'm like, awesome! Now we have a work project that's named that, happy memories of lots of nerdy math. But my first Unix system that I played with, so, but what's great about that, what's great about that particular project, and you're right that this is very much aligned with, you're an enterprise. You would very much like to do enterprise-y things, like being a bank or being an airline or being an insurance company, and you super don't want to look at the very confusing CNCF Project Map and go, I think we need something in that quadrant. And then set your ships for that direction, and hopefully you'll get to what you need. And it's especially when you said that, you mentioned that, this, it basically standardizes it, such that whichever projects you want to use, whichever of the N, and we used to joke about JavaScript framework for the week, but I'm pretty sure the Service Mesh Project of the week has outstripped it in terms of like speed, of new projects being released all the time. And like, a lot of end user companies would very much like to start doing something and have it work and if the adorable start-up that had all the stars on GitHub and the two contributors ends up, and I'm not even naming a specific one, I'm just saying like there are many projects out there that are great technically and maybe they don't actually plan on supporting your LTS. And that's fine, but if we end up with this interface such that whatever service mesh, mesh, that's a hard word. Whatever service mesh technology you choose to use, you can be confident that you can move forward and not have a horrible disaster later. >> Right, and I think that's something that a lot of developers when left to our own devices and in my particular device, the devices are pretty crappy. Where it becomes a, I want to get this thing built, and up and running and working, and then when it finally works I do a happy dance. And no one wants to see that, I promise. It becomes a very different story when, okay, how do you maintain this? How do you responsibly keep this running? And it's, well I just got it working, what do you mean maintain it? I'm done, my job is done, I'm going home now. It turns out that when you have a business that isn't being the most clever person in the room, you sort of need to have a longer term plan around that. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And it's nice to see that level of maturation being absorbed into the ecosystem. >> I think the ecosystem may finally be ready for it. And this is, I feel like, it's easy for us to look at examples of the past, people kind of shake their heads at OpenStack as a cautionary tale or of Sprawl and whatnot. But this is a thriving, which means growing, which means changing, which means very busy ecosystem. But like you're pointing out, if your enterprises are going to adapt some of this technology, they look at it and everyone here was, ya know, eating cupcakes or whatever for the Kubernetes fifth birthday, to an enterprise just 'cause that launched in 2014, June 2014, that sounds kind of new. >> Oh absolutely. >> Like, we're still, we're still running that mainframe that is still producing business value and actually that's fine. I mean, I think this maybe is one of the great things about a company like Microsoft, is we are our customers. Like we also respect the fact that if something works you don't just yolo a new thing out into production to replace it for what reason? What is the business value of replacing it? And I think for this, that's why this, kind of Unix philosophy of the very modular pieces of this ecosystem and we were talking about Helm a little earlier, but there's also, Draft, Brigade, etc. Like the Porter, the CNET spec implementation stuff, and this Cloud Native application bundles, that's a whole mouthful. >> Yes, well no disrespect to your sparkly shirt, but chasing the shiny thing, and this is new and exciting is not necessarily a great thing. >> Right? >> I heard some of the shiny squad that were on the show floor earlier, complaining a little bit about the keynotes, that there haven't been a whole lot of new service and feature announcements. (Bridget laughing) And my opinion on that is feature not bug. I, it turns out most of us have jobs that aren't keeping up with every new commit to an open-source project. >> I think what you were talking about before, this idea of, I'm the developer, I yolo'd out this co-load into production, or I yolo'd this out into production. It is definitely production grade as long as everything stays on the happy path, and nothing unexpected happens. And I probably have air handling, and, yay! We had the launch party, we're drinkin' and eatin' and we're happy and we don't really care that somebody is getting paged. And, it's probably burning down. And a lot of human misery is being poured into keeping it working. I like to think that, considering that we're paying attention to our enterprise customers and their needs, they're pretty interested in things that don't just work on day one, but they work on day two and hopefully day 200 and maybe day 2000. And like, that doesn't mean that you ship something once and you're like, okay, we don't have to change it for three years. It's like, no, you ship something, then you keep iterating on it, you keep bug fixing, you keep, sure you want features, but stability is a feature. And customer value is a feature. >> Well, Bridget I'm glad you brought that up. Last thing I want to ask you 'cause Microsoft's a great example, as you say, as a customer, if you're an Azure customer, I don't ask you what version of Azure you're running or whether you've done the latest security patch that's in there because Microsoft takes care of you. Now, your customers that are pulled between their two worlds is, oh, wait, I might have gotten rid of patch Tuesdays, but I still have to worry and maintain that environment. How are they dealing with, kind of that new world and still have, certain things that are going to stay the old way that they have been since the 90's or longer? >> I mean, obviously it's a very broad question and I can really only speak to the Kubernetes space, but I will say that the customers really appreciate, and this goes for all the Cloud providers, when there is something like the dramatic CVE that we had in December for example. It's like, oh, every Kubernetes cluster everywhere is horribly insecure! That's awesome! I guess, your API gateway is also an API welcome mat for everyone who wants to, do terrible things to your clusters. All of the vendors, Microsoft included, had their managed services patched very quickly. They're probably just like your Harple's of the world. If you rolled your own, you are responsible for patching, maintaining, securing your own. And this is, I feel like that's that tension. That's that continuum we always see our customers on. Like, they probably have a data center full of ya know, veece, fear and sadness, and they would very much like to have managed happiness. And that doesn't mean that they can easily pickup everything in the data center, that they have a lease on and move it instantly. But we can work with them to make sure that, hey, say you want to run some Kubernetes stuff in your data center and you also want to have AKS. Hey, there's this open-source project that we instantiated, that we worked on with other organizations called Vertual Kubelet. There was actually a talk happening about it I think in the last hour, so people can watch the video of that. But, we have now offered, we now have Virtual Node, our product version of it in GA. And I think this is kind of that continuum. It's like, yes of course, you're early adapters want the open-source to play with. Your enterprises want it to be open-source so they can make sure that their security team is happy having reviewed it. But, like you're saying, they would very much like to consume a service so they can get to business value. Like they don't necessarily want to, take, Kelsey's wonderful Kubernetes The Hard Way Tutorial and put that in production. It's like, hmm, probably not, not because they can't, these are smart people, they absolutely could do that. But then they spent their, innovation tokens as, the McKinley blog post puts it, the, it's like, choose boring technology. It's not wrong. It's not that boring is the goal, it's that you want the exciting to be in the area that is producing value for your organization. Like that's where you want most of your effort to go. And so if you can use well vetted open-source that is cross industry standard, stuff like SMI that is going to help you use everything that you chose, wisely or not so wisely, and integrate it and hopefully not spend a lot of time redeveloping. If you redevelop the same applications you already had, its like, I don't think at the end of the quarter anybody is getting their VP level up. If you waste time. So, I think that is, like, one of the things that Microsoft is so excited about with this kind of open-source stuff is that our customers can get to value faster and everyone that we collaborate with in the other clouds and with all of these vendor partners you see on the show floor, can keep the ecosystem moving forward. 'Cause I don't know about you but I feel like for a while we were all building different things. I mean like, instead of, for example, managed services for something like Kubernetes, I mean a few jobs that would go out was that a start up that we, we built our own custom container platform, as one did in 2014. And, we assembled it out of all the LEGOs and we built it out of I think Docker and Packer and Chef and, AWS at the time and, a bunch of janky bash because like if someone tells you there's no janky bash underneath your home grown platform, they are lying. >> It's always a lie, always a lie. >> They're lying. There's definitely bash in there, they may or may not be checking exit codes. But like, we all were doing that for a while and we were all building, container orchestration systems because we didn't have a great industry standard, awesome! We're here at KubeCon. Obviously Kubernetes is a great industry standard, but everybody that wants to chase the shiny is like but surface meshes. If I review talks for, I think I reviewed talks for KubeCon in Copenhagen, and it was like 50 or 60 almost identical service mesh talk proposals. And it's like, and then now, like so that was last year and now everyone is like server lists and its like, you know you still have servers. Like you don't add sensation to them, which is great, but you still have them. I think that that hype train is going to keep happening and what we need to do is make sure that we keep it usable for what the customers are trying to accomplish. Does that make sense? >> Bridget, it does, and unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you so much for sharing everything with our audience here. For Corey, I'm Stu, we'll be back with more coverage. Thanks for watching The Cube. (upbeat techno music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. This is theCUBE's live coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019 here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman, my cohost is Corey Quinn. Happy to welcome to the program two first-time guests, a company we've had on the program, Reduxio. But some changes have been going on, as have been in the industry. Sitting to my right is Ori Bendori, who is the CEO of the company. Sitting to his right is Jacob Cherian, who is the CMO and vice president of product. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for having us. >> One of the things that I've really enjoyed at this conference is, it is a global conference. The CNCF puts on three pieces of it, but this one definitely has a very European flavor. You gentlemen are coming to us from Israel. Ori, let's start with you. Just give us the update, kind of the quick, the who and the why and the what of Reduxio. >> Okay. So we are a storage and data management company, and where we are aiming is having Kubernetes native, containers native, cloud native solution. We have some unique capabilities. And actually we are getting ourself to the public this exhibition, so it's very important for us. We've been developing it for the last year, so this is the first time we announce that we have a new product that is container native, headed to clouds, and very unique. >> So Jacob, we actually had an analyst on earlier and he said, "The thing about this space is, "we're talking it's stateless, "it's trussless, it's codeless. "That doesn't mean I can't deal "with those environments, "they all have some challenges when you talk about storage." I mean those of us that know storage, it's a complicated thing. I loved the presentation this morning, and the key note was it's turtles all the way down. There's a lot of complexity inside storage and that doesn't go away, and sometimes we're trying to make this world no less complicated than storage would be outside of it, as I guess an industry thing. How is Reduxio helping us solve that? >> So as customers move applications from traditional infrastructures to storage, to containerized infrastructure, I think the expectation is that these customers would expect the same capability that they had with the existing storage systems in the container native storage. Because why would a customer move their applications to an environment that's less capable? And our focus is to deliver storage that is enterprise grade, where customers feel comfortable for moving their business-critical applications from the traditional environment into a container environment. >> You mentioned a few minutes ago that this is, you have something very unique that you've been working on for a year and are now deploying into the marketplace. In your conversations with customers, what unmet need did you wind up seeing and what differentiates you from other options people could go with? >> Thank you. I think we're talking about three things. The most important thing, the first one, as Jacob was describing, is we are enterprise grade. We have the full set of data management and storage capability, which we believe some of our customers do not have. We believe containers are moving to production. To real serious enterprise application, you need this kind of capability. And we have it. The other two are very unique. The first one, we are microservice based. We believe the first wave of solutions for containers native was built on just putting stuff inside a container instead of virtual machine. We think you need to go all the way. We took our technology, and we put it in microservices. This brings us a huge advantage in multiple areas. If you think about it, is one of the reasons people went and adopted containers is all this capability they bring. When you are not implementing the microservices, you are actually losing a lot of this value. The third one is a unique capability, which is our unique IP as well, is what we call data mobility or application mobility. We believe containers, one of the major things people are looking for is mobility. They want to move their stuff between on-prem to the public cloud. They all want to move from one public cloud provider to another. They want to do it quickly. You can do it with containers and with Kubernetes. You cannot move the data. If you move your application from on-prem to the public cloud, data is not with you because storage is not with you. We make it different. What we are offering is this unique IP. When you move the application, by the way everything is application-based in our solution, when you move it, we are moving the kind of metadata we need, which takes a minute or two, and you can start working immediately in the new location. We'll make sure everything happening in the new location, we will move your data in the background. By the way, we move the hot data first and the cold data later. We believe that makes a big difference for hybrid solutions. If you want to run multiple clouds, both on-prem and public, you would like to have the ability to move stuff quickly. It cannot be that you move the application and a week later the data arrives. It just doesn't work. >> There are very definitely latency considerations in there. When you're doing this, do you find that you're presenting this as file, block, object, or does it not matter given that your application-- >> Yes, so the solution we provide to that provides persistent volumes in Kubernetes. It's container native. It actually uses a CSI plug-in to basically deliver persistent volumes to pods that run within Kubernetes. >> So Jacob, when I talk to storage companies today, there are your traditional storage companies, and they're all, "We're moving toward cloud native, "yeah, microservices, we're all in on that stuff." We've seen a resistance in the enterprise to how developer models are going to go in there, how they're going to modernize. And then I've got cloud native people that would just say, "We're built for multi-cloud, and we do this." Where do you fit? What's the industry getting right, and was does differentiate your team? >> So I think let's define container native first, right? I think that's important because everybody says that they're cloud native; if you have a CSI plug-in, people claim, and people are cloud native because you can attach them to Kubernetes. But I think container native has unique value because once you move to Kubernetes, you truly are building a cloud environment where you want all your work, everything to be running inside that Kubernetes cluster. This is really realization of ITS code, right? Where infrastructure is shared, physical resources are shared, and your networking, your applications, and storage are just services that run on top of a physical infrastructure. For us, when we look at container native, the important attribute for container native is that it runs within Kubernetes, it's implemented as containers, and it is orchestrated and scales with Kubernetes. It should not be something that's separate. >> All right, so Ori, you've been in the industry for a while. >> The storage people, they buy on risk. It's like, oh, this cool new stuff it's all nice and everything but it needs to be trusted. While they're interested and they're trying new things, and sure they're going to get Kubernetes in production in the next six months. Why Reduxio, how can they be trusted in this space? >> So I think this is a bit talking about go to market and what we are doing. So we've been engaging to customers from day one, and we're going to to do a peer see in the coming months with I don't know how many of them. I think we learned where the use cases make sense, okay? So, the good news for us is that the market is moving forward as of containers. We don't have like financial institutions, many of them decided strategically they're moving there, they're going to containers. They probably aren't going to do everything on containers, but new staff will go to containers. So those people, I don't have to convince them. When they look around, there's not much. If you want to have storage that is container native, there's not a lot. By the way, most of it is coming from start-ups, if not all of it right now. And they're saying, we went all the way, now we go back and have an external storage, it just doesn't make sense. So those people, anyway, it is a bit new. I'm not fighting for their application they have since the '90s, okay? I don't think they will move many of those into containers. But there is enough that is moving to containers. The other one that I think is important is the use case which are very natural to containers, people already adopt them. I'll name two of them. One is CICD. People are using it to move stuff anyway. They want to have on a public cloud, on a private cloud. They are using Jenkins in many cases. We deliver into Jenkins a solution that is so natural and so valuable to them, it's almost a no-brainer. By the way, it is CICD, so it fails. So restart it, right? It's out of production data at this stage, and if it works, by the way, half a year from now they'll put us in other places. The other thing around is Hadoop. Anything that has to do with data processing, a lot of those people are moving into containers anyway. In a way we are riding with them. They are looking for a solution that will simplify the way they put, they construct their stuff. They want to move easily and have the kind of mobility we talked about. And in a way they are willing to take the risk. And by the way, none of the current incumbent provide 'em any of the solution. Which is the benefit of the small guys. >> Jacob, what's the roll out of this new offering? >> Yes, so what we've announced at KubeCon is that we've started customer evaluations. We expect to start POCs in about three months. So from evaluation to POC it's about three months, and product will be available for production by fall of this year. >> All right, so Ori, I want to give you the final word. Where should people be looking for Reduxio, and what do we expect from the company throughout the year? >> I think in the end of the day, I'm trying to be modest, but I won't. We believe we are in a way the future of storage. Not because we're that smart, because it makes a lot of sense because this is the way the public cloud guys are building their stuff. It has to be cloud native. It has to be container native because that is where the IT is moving to. So in a way, we're saying in the end of the day, storage needs to behave like everybody else. It cannot be the exception. Storage has to be part of the containers ecosystem. We represent the first one, maybe not the first one. There will be others, we're not going to be alone. But we believe the direction we're taking is the direction the storage industry will take. >> Well, Ori and Jacob thanks so much for sharing everything. >> Thank you. >> We know there's always the next new thing, it's going to make everything nice and easy. Some hard work to make sure that storage works right in all these new environments. We look forward to tracking everything. For Corey Quinn, I'm Stu Miniman, we'll be back with more coverage here from KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>>Live from Barcelona, Spain, execute covering CubeCon cloud native con Europe, 2019 onto you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back. We're here in Barcelona, Spain where 7,700 attendees are here for Q con cloud native con. I'm Stu Miniman and this is the cubes live two day coverage having to have on the program to returning guests to talk about five years of Kubernetes. To my right is Tim Hawkin wearing the Barna contributors shirt. Uh, and uh, sitting to his right is gay Bon Roy. So, uh, I didn't introduce their titles and companies, but you know, so Tim's and Google gives it Microsoft, uh, but you know, heavily involvement in uh, you know, Coobernetti's since the very early days. I mean, you know, Tim, you're, you're on the Wikipedia page game, you know, I think we have to do some re editing to make sure we get the community expanded in some of the major contributors and get you on there. But gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having us. >>Alright. Uh, so, you know, Tim just spoke to Joe Beda and we talked about, you know, the, the, the idea of, you know, Craig and Brendan and him sitting in the room and, you know, open source and, you know, really bringing this out there to community. But let's start with you. Cause he, you know, uh, I remember back many times in my career like, Oh, I read this phenomenal paper about Google. You know, we're going to spend the next decade, you know, figuring out the ripple effect of this technology. Um, you know, Coobernetti's has in five years had a major impact on, on what we're doing. Uh, it gives a little bit of your insight is to, you know, what you've seen from those early days, you know. >>Yeah. You know, um, in the early days we had the same conversations we produced. These papers are, you know, seminal in the industry. Um, and then we sort of don't follow up on them sometimes as Google. Um, we didn't want this to be that, right. We wanted this to be alive living thing with a real community. Uh, that took root in a different way than MapReduce, Hadoop sort of situation. Um, so that was very much front of mind as we work through what are we going to build, how are we going to build and how are we going to manage it? How are we going to build a community? How, how do you get people involved? How do you find folks like Gaiman and Deus and get them to say we're in, we want to be a part of this. >>All right, so Gabe, it was actually Joe corrected me when I said, well, Google started it and they pulled in some other like-minded vendors. Like he said, no, no stew. We didn't pull vendors in. We pulled in people and people that believed in the project and the vision, you were one of those people that got pulled in early. He were, you know, so help give us a little context in your, your viewpoint. I did. And, and, and you know, at the time I was working for a company, uh, called, uh, that I had started and we were out there trying to make developers more productive in industry using modern technology like containers. And you know, it was through the process of trying to solve problems for customers, sort of the lens that I was bringing, uh, to this where, um, I was introduced to some really novel technology approaches first through Docker. >>Uh, and you know, I was close with Solomon hikes, the, the founder over there. Uh, and then, you know, started to work closely with folks at Google, uh, namely Brendon burns, who I now work with at Microsoft. Um, you know, part of the, the founding Kubernetes team. Uh, and I, I agree with that statement that it is really about people. It's really about individual connections at the end of the day. Um, I think we do these things that at these coupons, uh, events called the contributor summits. And it's very interesting because when folks land at one of these summits, it's not about who you work for, what Jersey you're wearing, that sort of thing. It's people talking to people, trying to solve technical problems, trying to solve organizational challenges. Uh, and I think, you know, the, the phenomenon that's happened there and the scale with which that's happened is part of the reason why there's 8,000 people here in Barcelona today. >>Yeah. It's interesting to him cause you know, I used to be involved in some standards work and I've been, you know, working with the open source community for about 20 years. It used to be ah, you know, it was the side project that people did at nights and everything like that. Today a lot of the people that are contributing, well they do have a full time job and their job will either let them or asking them to do that. So I do talk to people here that when they're involved in the working groups, when they're doing these things, yes. You think about who their paycheck comes for, but that's secondary to what they're doing as part of the community. And it is, you know, some of the people what, what >>absolutely. It's part of the ethos of the project that the project comes first and if company comes second or maybe even third. Uh, and for the most part, this has been wildly successful. Uh, there's this huge base of trust among, uh, among the leadership and among the contributors. Um, and you know, it's, it's a big enough project now that I don't know every one of the contributors, but we have this web of trust. And, you know, I, I have this, this army of people that I know and I trust very well and they know people and they know people and it works out that the project has been wildly successful and we've never yet had a major conflict or strife that centered on company this or company that. >>Yeah. And I don't, I'd also add that it's an important development has happened in the wake of Kubernetes where, you know, for example, in my teams at Microsoft, I actually have dedicated PM and engineering staff where their only job is to focus on community engagements, right? Running the release team for communities one 15 or working on IPV six support or windows container support. Uh, and, and that work, that upstream work, uh, puts folks in contact with people from all different companies, Google, uh, uh, you know, Microsoft working closely together on countless initiatives. Uh, and the same is true really for the entire community. So I think it's really great to see that you can get not just sort of the interpersonal interactions. We can also get sort of corporate sponsorship of that model. Cause I do think at the end of the day people need to get their paychecks. Uh, and oftentimes that's going to come from a big company. Uh, and, and seeing that level of investment is, I think, uh, pretty encouraging. Okay. Well, you know, luckily five years in we've solved all the problems and everything works perfectly. Um, if that's not maybe the case, where do we need people involved? What things should we be looking at? Kind of the, the, the next year or two in this space, you know, a project >>of this size, a community of this size, a system of this scope has infinite work to do, right? The, the, the barrel is never going to be empty. Um, and in some cases it's filling faster than it's draining. Um, every special interest group, every SIG, it has a backlog of issues of things that they would like to see fixed of features that they have some user pounding the table saying, I need this thing to work. Uh, IPV six is a great example, right? And, and we have people now stepping up to take on these big issues because they have customers who need it or they see it as important foundational work for building future stuff. Um, so, you know, there's, there's no shortage of work to do. That's not just engineering work though, right? It's not just product definition or API. We have a, what we call a contributor experience. People who work with our community to entre online, uh, new contributors and um, and, and streamline how to get them in and involved in documentation and testing and release engineering. And there's so much sort of non-core work. Uh, I could go on on this for. >>Yeah, you're just reminding me of the session this morning is I don't manage clusters. I manage fleets. And you have the same challenge with the people. Yeah. And I also had another dimension to this about just the breadth of contribution. We were just talking before the show that, um, you know, outside at the logo there is this, uh, you know, characters, book characters, and such. And really that came from a children's book that was created to demonstrate core concepts, uh, to developers who were new to Kubernetes. And it ended up taking off and it was eventually donated to the CNCF. Um, but things like that, you can't underestimate the importance and impact that that can have on making sure that Kubernetes is accessible to a really broad audience. Okay. Uh, yeah, look, I want to give you both a, just the, the, the final word as to w what you shout out, you one for the community and uh, yeah. And any special things that have surprised you or exciting you? Uh, you know, here in 2019, >>uh, you know, exciting is being here. If you rewind five years and tell me I'm going to in Barcelona with with 7,500 of my best friends, uh, I would think you are crazy or are from Mars. Um, this is amazing. And uh, I thank everybody who's here, who's made this thing possible. We have a ton of work to do. Uh, and if you feel like you can't figure out what you need to work on, come talk to me and we'll, we'll figure it out. >>Yeah. And for me, I just want to give a big thank you to all the maintainers folks like Tim, but also, you know, some other folks who, you know, may, you may not know their name but they're the ones slogging it out and to get hub PRQ you know, trying to just make the project work and function day to day and were it not for their ongoing efforts, we wouldn't have any of this. So thank you to that. Well and look, thank you. Of course, to the community and thank you both for sharing with our community. We're always happy to be a small piece of a, you know, helping to spread the word and uh, give some voice to everything that's going on here. Thank you so much. All right, so we will be back with more coverage here from coupon cloud native con 2019 on Stu Miniman and thank you for watching the cube.

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> In mid-2014, announced the world, coming out of Google led by Joe Beda, sitting to my right, Brendan Burges and Craig McLucky, all Kube alumni. Kubernetes, which is the Greek for governor helmsman or captain and here we are, five years later at the show. I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon here in Barcelona, Spain. Joe you've got your title today is that you're a principal engineer at VMware of course, by way of acquisition through Heptio, but you are one of the people who helped start this journey that we are all on Kubernetes, thanks so much for joining us. >> Yeah, thank you so much for having me. >> Alright, so, the cake and the candles and the singing we'll hold for the parties later. We have Fippy and the gang have been watching our whole thing, for people who don't know there's a whole cartoon, books and stuffed animals and everything like that. Joe, when you started this merchandising, that was what you were starting, no. In all seriousness though, bring us back a little bit give us a little bit of historical context as to we've had you on the program a few times but yeah, here we are five years later was this what you were expecting? >> I mean when I remember Craig and Bren and I sitting around and we're like hey, we should do this as an open source project This is before we got approvals and got the whole thing started. And I think there was, like an idea in the back of our head, of like, this could be a big deal. You dream big a lot of times and you know that there's a reality and that it's not always going to end up being this. And so, I don't think anybody involved with Kubernetes in the early days really thought it was going to turn into what it has turned into. >> Yeah, so when we look at open source projects, I remember back a few years back, it was like to succeed you must have a phoenetical dictator that will make sure the community does this or wait we don't want too much vendor we're just going to let the user community take over and there's all these extremes out there, but these are complicated pieces. The keynote this morning the discussion was Kubernetes is a platform of platforms it's like I've got all of these APIs and by itself, Kubernetes doesn't do a lot. It is, what it enables and what things put together, so walk us through a little bit of that the mission, how it changed a bit and a little bit of the community and we'll go from there. >> Yeah, I think so early on one of the goals with Kubernetes from Google's point of view was to essentially take a lot of the ideas that had been incubated over about a decade, with respect to Borg and other things and so, a lot of the early folks who got involved in the project and worked on those systems and really bring that to the outside world as a way to actually start bridging the gap between what Googlers did and what the rest of the world did. We had a really good idea of what we were looking to get out of this system and that was widely shared based on experience across a bunch of relatively senior engineers. We brought in some of the Red Hat folks early on Clayton Coleman and some of the other folks who are still super involved in the project. I think there was enough of an understanding that we looked and said okay we got a lot of work to do let's just get this done. So, we didn't really need sort of the benevolent dictator because there was a shared understanding and we had senior engineers that were willing to make trade-offs to be able to go and move forward. So that I think was a key bit of the success early on. >> Alright, so you talked, it was pulling in some other vendor community there. Talk a little bit about how that ecosystem grew and when was user feedback part of that discussion? >> Yeah, I mean, when you say we pulled in the vendor we pulled in people who worked for vendors but we never really viewed it as, there was really from the beginning this idea of well what's good for the project? What's going to actually create sustainability and for the project, sort of project over vendor is really something that we wanted to establish. And that even came down to the name, right? Like, when we named the project, we could have called it Google XYZ or some sort of XYZ but we didn't want to do that because we wanted to establish it as an independent thing with a life of its own. And so, yeah, so we wanted to bring in those external ideas and I think early on, we did have some early users, we did listen to them but it really resonated with folks who could actually see where we were going. I think it took time for the rest of the world to really catch on with what the vision was. >> OK, when we look at today, there's a lot at the show that is on top of or next to or with Kubernetes it's not all about that piece. How do you balance what goes in it versus what goes with it? One of my favorite lines last year overall, was from you, saying Kubernetes is not a magic player it is not the be all and end all it is set with very specific guidelines. How do you avoid scope creep? As engineers it's always like, I don't know, we know how to do that piece of it better. >> So when we started out the project we didn't actually have a governance model. It was just a bunch of engineers that sort of worked well together. Over time and as the project grew, we knew that we needed to actually get some sort of structure in place. And so a bunch of us who had been there from the start got together, formed a steering committee, held elections. There's a secret architecture that we formed and these are the places where we can actually say what is Kubernetes what is Kubernetes not how do we actually maintain sort of good taste with how we actually approach this stuff and that's one of the ways that we try to contain scope creep. But also, I think everybody realizes that a thriving ecosystem whether officially part of the CNCF or adjacent to it, is good for everybody. Trying to hold on too tight is not going to be good for the project. >> So, Joe, tremendous progress in five years. Look forward for us a little bit. What does Kubernetes 2024 look like for us? >> Well a lot of folks like to say that in five years, Kubernetes is going to disappear. And sometimes they come at this from this sort of snarky angle. (chuckles) But other times, I think it's going to disappear in terms of like it's going to be so boring, so solid, so assumed that people don't talk about it anymore. I mean, we're here, at something that the CNCF is part of the Linux Foundation, which is great. But how often do people really focus on the Linux kernel these days? It is so boring, so solid, there's new stuff going on, but clearly, all the exciting stuff all the action, all the innovation is happening at higher layers. I think we're going to see something similar happen with Kubernetes over time. >> Yeah, that being said the reach of Kubernetes is further than ever. I was talking to this special interest group looking at edge computing and IoT people making the micro-cage version of this stuff when the team first got together, I mean, is you must look at and said there were many fathers, many parents of this solution, but, could you imagine the kind of the family and ecosystem that would have grown out of it? >> I think we knew that it could go there I mean, Google had some experience with this, I mean When Google bought YouTube, they had a problem where they had to essentially build out something that looked a little bit like a CDN. And so there were some examples of sort of like, how does technology, like Boar, adapt to an Edge type of situation. So, there was some experience to borrow we definitely knew that we wanted this thing to scale up and down. But I think that's a hallmark of these successful technologies is that they can be used in ways and in places that you really never thought about when you got started. So that's definitely true. >> Alright, Joe, want to give you the final word the contributors, the users, the ecosystem community, what do you say with five years of Kubernetes now in the books? >> I just want to send a huge thank you to everybody who made it happen. This is, it was started by Google it was started by a few of us early on. But, we really want to make it so that everybody feels like it's theirs. A lot of times Brendan Burns and me and Kelsey wrote a book together and I'll do signing and a lot of times I'll sign that and I'll say thank you for being a part of Kubernetes. Because I really feel like every user everybody who bets on it, everybody who shares their knowledge, they're really a big part of it. And so thank you to everybody who's a big part of Kubernetes. >> All right, well, Joe, thank you as always for sharing your knowledge with our community >> Thank you so much. >> We've been happy to be a small part in helping to spread the knowledge and everything going on here, so congratulations to the community on five years of Kubernetes and we'll be back with more coverage here from KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019. I'm Stu Miniman and thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)