>> live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the key covering Cook Con Cloud, Native Con Europe twenty nineteen by Red Hat, The Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back to the Cubes Live coverage of Cloud Native Con Cube Khan, twenty nineteen I'm student of my co host is Corey Quinn and happy to welcome back to the program. Doug Davis, who's a senior technical staff member and PM of a native and happens to be employed by IBM. Thanks so much for joining. Thanks for inviting me. Alright. So, Corey, I got really excited when he saw this Because server lists, uh, is something that, you know he's been doing for a while. I've been poking in, trying to understand all the pieces have done marvelous conflict couple of times and, you know, I guess, I guess layout for our audience a little bit, you know, Kay native. You know, I look at it kind of a bridging the solution, but, you know, we're talking. It's not the, you know, you know, containers or server. Listen, you know, we understand that world, they're spectrums, and there's overlap. So maybe is that is a set up. You know what is the service. Working groups, you know, Charter, Right. So >> the service Working Group is a Sand CF working group. It was originally started back in mid two thousand seventeen by the technical recite committee in Cincy. They basically wanted know what is service all about his new technology is that some of these get involved with stuff like that. So they started up the service working group and our main mission was just doing some investigation. And so the output of this working group was a white paper. Basically describing serval is how it compares with the other as is out there. What is the good use cases for when to use? It went out through it. Common architectures, basically just explaining what the heck is going on in that space. And then we also produced a landscape document basically laying out what's out there from a proprietors perspective as well is open source perspective. And then the third piece was at the tail end of the white paper set of recommendations for the TOC or seen staff in general. What should they do? Do next and basic came down to three different things. One was education. We want to be educate the community on what services, when it's appropriate >> stuff like that >> to what should wait. I'm sorry I'm getting somebody thinks my head recommendations. What other projects we pull into the CNC f others other service projects, you know, getting encouraged in the joint to grow the community. And, third, >> what should we >> do around improbability? Because obviously, when it comes to open source standards of stuff like that, we want in our ability portability, stuff like that. And one of the low hang your food so they identified was, Well, service seems to be all about events. So there's something inventing space we can do and we recognize well, if we could help the processing of events as it moves from Point A to point B, that might help people in terms of middleware in terms of routing, of events, filtering events, stuff like that. And so that's how these convents project that started. Right? And so that's where most of service working group members are nowadays. Is cloud events working or project, and they're basically divine, Eva said. Specification around cloud events, and you kind of think of it as defining metadata to add to your current events because we're not going to tell you. Oh, here's yet another one size fits all cloud of in format, right? It's Take your current events. Sprinkle a little extra metadata in there just to help routing. And that's really what it's all about. >> One of the first things people say about server list is quoted directly from the cover of Missing the Point magazine Server list Runs on servers. Wonderful. Thank you for your valuable contribution. Go away slightly less naive is, I think, an approach, and I've seen a couple of times so far at this conference. When talking to people that they think of it in terms of functions as a service of being able to take arbitrary code and run it. I have a wristwatch I can run arbitrary code on. That's not really the point. It's, I think you're right. It's talking more about the event model and what that unlocks As your application. Mohr less starts to become more self aware. Are you finding that acceptance of that point is taking time to take root? >> Yeah, I think what's interesting is when we first are looking. A serval is, I think, very a lot of people did think of service equals function of the service, and that's all it was. I think what we're finding now is this this mode or people are more open to the idea of sort of as you. I think you're alluding to merging of these worlds because we look at the functionality of service offers things like event base, which really only means is the messages coming in? It just happens to look like an event. Okay, fine. Mrs comes in you auto scale based upon, you know, loaded stuff like that scale down to zero is a one of the key. Thought it was really like all these other things are all these features. Why should you limit those two service? Why not a past platform? Why not? Container is a service. Why would you want those just for one little as column? And so my goal with things like a native though I'm glad you mentioned it is because I think Canada does try to span those, and I'm hoping it kind of merges them altogether and says, Look, I don't care what you call it. Use this piece of technology because it does what you need to do If you want to think of it as a pass. Go for I don't care. This guy over here he wants think that is a FAZ Great. It's the same piece of technology. Does the feature do what you need? Yes or no? Ignore that, nor the terminology around it more than anything else. >> So I agree. Ueda Good, Great discussion with the user earlier and he said from a developer standpoint, I actually don't want to think too much about which one of these pass I go down. I want to reduce the friction for them and make it easy. So you know, how does K native help us move towards that? You know, ideal >> world, right? And I think so fine. With what I said earlier, One of the things I think a native does, aside from trying to bridge all the various as columns is I also look a K native as a simplification of communities because as much as everybody here loves communities, it is kind of complicated, right? It is not the easiest thing in the world to use, and it kind of forced you to be a nightie expert which almost goes against the direction we were headed. When you think of Cloud Foundry stuff like that where it's like, Hey, you don't worry about this something, we're just give us your code, right? Cos well says, No, you gotta know about networks, Congress on values, that everything else it's like, I'm sorry, isn't this going the wrong way? Well, Kania tries to back up a little, say, give you all the features of Cooper Netease, but in a simplified platform or a P I experience that you can get similar Tokat. Foundry is Simo, doctor and stuff, but gives you all the benefits of communities. But the important thing is if for some reason you need to go around K native because it's a little too simplified or opinionated, you could still go around it to get to the complicated stuff. And it's not like you're leaving that a different world or you're entering a different world because it's the same infrastructure they could. This stuff that you deploy on K native can integrate very nicely with the stuff you deploy through vanilla communities if you have to. So it is really nice emerging these two worlds, and I'm I'm really excited by that. >> One thing that I found always strange about server list is a first. It was defined by what it's not and then quickly came to be defined almost by its constraints. If you take a look at public cloud offerings around this, most notably a ws land other there, many others it comes down well. You can only run it for experience, time or on Lee runs in certain run times, or it's something the cold starts become a problem. I think that taking a viewpoint from that perspective artificially hobbles what this might wind up on locking down the road just because these constraints move. And right now it might be a bit of a toy. I don't think it will be as it because it needs to become more capable. The big value proposition that I keep hearing around server listen I've mostly bought into has been that it's about business logic and solving the things that Air corps to your business and not even having to think about infrastructure. Where do you stand on that >> viewpoint? I completely agree. I think a lot of the limitations you see today are completely artificial I kind of understand why they're there, because the way things have progressed, But again, it's one reason I excited like a native is because a lot of those limitations aren't there. Now. Kay native doesn't have its own set of limitations. And personally, I do want to try to remove those. Like I said, I would love it if K native, aside from the service features it offers up, became these simplified incriminate his experience. So if you think about what you could do with Coronet is right, you can deploy a pod and they can run forever until the system decides to crash. For some reason, right, why not do that with a native and you can't stay with a native? Technically, I have demos that I've been running here where I set the men scale the one it lives forever, and teenager doesn't care right? And so deploying an application through K native communities. I don't care that it's the same thing to me. And so, yes, I do want to merge in those two worlds. I wantto lower those constraints as long as you keep it a simplified model and support the eighty to ninety percent of those use cases that it's actually meant to address. Leave the hard stuff for going around it a little. >> Alright, So, Doug, you know, it's often times, you know, we get caught in this bubble of arguing over, you know? You know what we call it, how the different pieces are. Yesterday you had a practitioner Summit four server list. So what? I want to hear his You know, whats the practitioners of you put What are they excited about? What are they using today and what are the things that they're asking for? Help it become, you know, Maur were usable and useful for them in the future. >> So in full disclosure, we actually kind of a quiet audience, so they weren't very vocal. But what little I did here is they seemed very excited by K native and I think a lot of it was because we were just talking about sort of the merging of the worlds because I do think there is still some confusion around, as you said, when to use one versus the other. And I think a native is helping to bring those together. And I did hear some excitement around that in terms of what people actually expect from us going the future. I don't know the honest They didn't actually say a whole lot there. I had my own personal opinion, and lot of is what already stayed in terms of emerging. Stop having me pick a technology or pick a terminology, right? Let me just pick technology gets my job done and hopefully that one will solve a lot of my needs. But for the most part, I think it was really more about Kenya than anything else yesterday. >> I think like Lennox before it. Any technology? At some point you saw this with virtual ization with cloud, with containers with Cooper Netease. And now we're starting to seriously with server lists where some of its most vocal proponents are also so the most obnoxious in that they're looking at this from a perspective of what's your problem? I'm not even going to listen to the answer. The solution is filling favorite technology here. So to that end today, what workloads air not appropriate for surveillance in your >> mind? Um, so this is hardly the answer because I have the IBM Army running through my head because what's interesting is. I do hear people talk about service is good for this and not this or you can date. It was good for this and not this. And I hear those things, and I'm not sure I actually buy it right. I actually think that the only limitations that I've seen in terms of what you should not run on time like he needed or any of the platform is whatever that platform actually finds you, too. So, for example, on eight of us, they may have time limited in terms of how long you can run. If that's a problem for you, don't use it to me. That's not an artifact of service. That's artifact of that particular choice of how the implement service with K native they don't have that problem. You could let it run forever if you want. So in terms of what workloads or good or bad, I honestly I don't have a good answer for that because I don't necessary by some of the the stories I'm hearing, I personally think, try to run everything you can through something like Cain native, and then when it fails, go someplace else is the same story had when containers first came around, they would say, You know when to use viens roses containers. My go to answer was, always try containers first. Your life would be a whole lot easier when it doesn't work, then look at the other things because I don't want to. I don't want to try to pigeonhole something like surly or K native and say, Oh, don't even think about it for these things because it may actually worked just fine for you, right? I don't want people to believe negative hype in a way that makes sense, >> and that's very fair. I tend to see most of the constraints around. This is being implementation details of specific providers and that that will dictate answers to that question. I don't want to sound like I'm coming after you, and that's very thoughtful of measured >> thank you Usual response back. Teo >> I'LL give you the tough one. The critical guy had in Seattle when I looked at K Native is there's a lot of civilised options out there yet, but when I talked to users, the number one out there is a ws lambda, and number two is probably as your functions and as of Seattle, neither of those was fully integrated since then. I talked a little startup called I Believe his Trigger Mash that that has made some connections between Lambda on K Native. And there was an announcement a couple of weeks ago, Kedia or Keita? That's azure and some kind of future to get Teo K native. So it feels like it's a maturity thing. And, you know, what can you tell us about, you know, the big cloud guys on Felicia? Google's involved IBM Red Hat on and you know Oracle are involved in K Native. So where do those big cloud players? Right? >> So from my perspective, what I think Kenya has going for it over the others is one A lot of other guys do run on Cooper Netease. I feel like they're sort of like communities as well as everything else, like some of them can run. Incriminate is Dr anything else, and so they're not necessary. Tightly integrated and leveraging the carbonates features the way Kay native is doing, and I think that's a little bit unique right there. But the other thing that I think K native has going for it is the community around it. I think people were doing were noticing. Is that what you said? There's a lot of other players out there and his heart feel the choose and what? I think Google did a great job of this sort of bringing the community together and said, Look, can we stop bickering and develop a sort of common infrastructure like communities is that we can all then base our surveillance platforms on, and I think that rallying cry to bring the community together across a common base is something a little bit unique for K native. When you compare it with the others, I think that's a big draw for people. Least from my perspective. I know it from IBM Zzzz Well, because community is a big thing for us, obviously. >> Okay, so will there be a bridge to those other cloud players soon as their road map? For that, >> we think a native itself. Yeah, I am not sure I can answer that one, because I'm not sure I heard a lot of of talk about bridging per se. I know that when you talk about things like getting events from other platforms and stuff, obviously, through the eventing side of a native. We do. But from a serving perspective, I'm not sure I hold her old water. From that perspective, you have to be >> honest. All right, Well, Doug Davis, we're done for This one really appreciate all the updates there. And I definitely look forward, Teo, seeing the progress that the servant working group continues to do, so thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Alright for Corey Quinn. I'm stupid and will be back with more coverage here on the Cube. Thanks for watching.

>> about >> fifteen live from basically about a room that is a common club native con Europe twenty nineteen by Red Hat, The >> Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back to the Cubes. Live coverage of Cloud Native Con Cube Khan, twenty nineteen I'm stupid in my co host is Corey Quinn and having a welcome back to the program, Doug Davis, who's a senior technical staff member and PM of a native. And he happens to be employed by IBM. Thanks so much for joining. Thanks for inviting me. Alright, So Corey got really excited when he saw this because server Lis is something that you know he's been doing for a while. I've been poking in, trying to understand all the pieces have done marvelous conflict couple of times and, you know, I guess, I guess layout for our audience a little bit, you know, k native. You know, I look at it kind of a bridging a solution, but, you know, we're talking. It's not the, you know, you know, containers or server lists. And, you know, we understand that world. They're spectrums and there's overlap. So maybe as that is a set up, you know, What is the surveillance working groups? You know, Charter. Right. So >> the service Working Group is a Sand CF working group. It was originally started back in mid two thousand seventeen by the technical recite committee in Cincy. They basically wanted know what is service all about his new technology is that some of these get involved with stuff like that. So they started up the service working group and our main mission was just doing some investigation. And so the output of this working group was a white paper. Basically describing serval is how it compares with the other as is out there. What is the good use cases for when to use that went out through it? Common architectures, basically just explaining what the heck is going on in that space. And then we also produced a landscape document basically laying out what's out there from a proprietors perspective as well is open source perspective. And then the third piece was at the tail end of the white paper set of recommendations for the TOC or seen stuff in general. What do they do next? And basic came down to three different things. One was education. We want to be educate the community on what services when it's appropriate stuff like that. Two. What should wait? I'm sorry I'm getting somebody Thinks my head recommendations. What other projects we pull into the CNC f others other service projects, you know, getting encouraged in the joint to grow the community. And third, what should we do around improbability? Because obviously, when it comes to open source standards of stuff like that, we want in our ability, portability stuff like that and one of the low hang your food should be identified was, well, service seems to be all about events. So there's something inventing space we could do, and we recognize well, if we could help the processing of events as it moves from Point A to point B, that might help people in terms of middleware in terms of routing, of events, filtering events, stuff like that. And so that's how these convents project that started. Right? And so that's where most of service working group members are nowadays. Is cod events working or project, and they're basically divine, Eva said specification around cloud events, and you kind of think of it as defining metadata to add to your current events because we're not going to tell you. Oh, here's yet another one size fits all cloud of in format, right? It's Take your current events. Sprinkle a little extra metadata in there just to help routing. And that's really what it's all about. >> One of the first things people say about server list is quoted directly from the cover of Missing the Point magazine Server list Runs on servers. Wonderful. Thank you for your valuable contribution. Go away slightly less naive is, I think, an approach, and I've seen a couple of times so far at this conference. When talking to people that they think of it in terms of functions as a service of being able to take arbitrary code and running, I have a wristwatch I can run arbitrary code on. That's not really the point. It's, I think you're right. It's talking more about the event model and what that unlocks As your application. Mohr less starts to become more self aware. Are you finding that acceptance of that viewpoint is taking time to take root? >> Yeah, I think what's interesting is when we first are looking. A serval is, I think, very a lot of people did think of service equals function of the service, and that's all it was. I think what we're finding now is this this mode or people are more open to the idea of sort of as you. I think you're alluding to merging of these worlds because we look at the functionality of service offers, things like event based, which really only means is the messages coming in? It just happens to look like an event. Okay, fine. Mrs comes in you auto scale based upon, you know, loaded stuff like that scale down to zero is a the monkey thought it was really like all these other things are all these features. Why should you limit those two service? Why not a past platform? Why not? Container is a service. Why would you want those just for one little as column? And so my goal with things like a native though I'm glad you mentioned it is because I think he does try to span those, and I'm hoping it kind of merges them altogether and says, Look, I don't care what you call it. Use this piece of technology because it does what you need to do. If you want to think of it as a pass, go for I don't care. This guy over here he wants think that is a FAZ Great. It's the same piece of technology. Does the feature do what you need? Yes or no? Ignore that, nor the terminology around it more than anything >> else. So I agree. Ueda Good, Great discussion with the user earlier and he said from a developer standpoint, I actually don't want to think too much about which one of these pass I go down. I want to reduce the friction for them and make it easy. So you know, how does K native help us move towards that? You know, ideal >> world, right? And I think so fine. With what I said earlier, One of the things I think a native does, aside from trying to bridge all the various as columns is I also look a K native as a simplification of communities because as much as everybody here loves communities, it is kind of complicated, right? It is not the easiest thing in the world to use, and it kind of forced you to be a nightie expert which almost goes against the direction we were headed. When you think of Cloud Foundry stuff like that where it's like, Hey, you don't worry about this something, we're just give us your code, right? Cos well says No, you gotta know about Network Sing Gris on values that everything else it's like, I'm sorry, isn't this going the wrong way? Well, Kania tries to back up a little, say, give you all the features of Cooper Netease, but in a simplified platform or a P I experience that you can get similar Tokat. Foundry is Simo, doctor and stuff, but gives you all the benefits of communities. But the important thing is if for some reason you need to go around K native because it's a little too simplified or opinionated, you could still go around it to get to the complicated stuff. And it's not like you're leaving that a different world or you're entering a different world because it's the same infrastructure they could stuff that you deploy on. K Native can integrate very nicely with the stuff you deploy through vanilla communities if you have to. So it is really nice emerging these two worlds, and I'm I'm really excited by that. >> One thing that I found always strange about server list is at first it was defined by what it's not and then quickly came to be defined almost by its constraints. If you take a look at public cloud offerings around this, most notably a ws land other there, many others it comes down well. You can only run it for experience time or it only runs in certain run times. Or it's something the cold starts become a problem. I think that taking a viewpoint from that perspective artificially hobbles what this might wind up on locking down the road just because these constraints move. And right now it might be a bit of a toy. I don't think it will be as it because it needs to become more capable. The big value proposition that I keep hearing around server listen I've mostly bought into has been that it's about business logic and solving the things that Air Corps to your business and not even having to think about infrastructure. Where do you stand on that >> viewpoint? I completely agree. I think a lot of the limitations you see today are completely artificial. I kind of understand why they're there, because the way things have progressed. But again, that's one reason I excited like a native is because a lot of those limitations aren't there. Now, Kay native doesn't have its own set of limitations. And personally, I do want to try to remove those. Like I said, I would love it if K native, aside from the serval ISS features it offers up, became these simplified, incriminate his experience. So if you think about what you could do with Coronet is right, you could deploy a pod and they can run forever until the system decides to crash. For some reason, right, why not do that with a native and you can't stay with a native? Technically, I have demos that I've been running here where I set the men scale the one it lives forever, and teenager doesn't care right? And so deploying an application through K native communities. I don't care that it's the same thing to me. And so, yes, I do want to merge in those two worlds. I wantto lower those constraints as long as you keep it a simplified model and support the eighty to ninety percent of those use cases that it's actually meant to address. Leave the hard stuff for going around it a little. >> Alright, So, Doug, you know, it's often times, you know, we get caught in this bubble of arguing over, you know? You know what we call it, how the different pieces are. Yesterday you had a practitioner Summit four server list. So what? I want to hear his You know, whats the practitioners of you put What are they excited about? What are they using today and what are the things that they're asking for? Help it become, you know, Maur were usable and useful for them in the future. >> So in full disclosure, we actually kind of a quiet audience, so they weren't very vocal. But what little I did here is they seem very excited by K native and I think a lot of it was because we were just talking about that sort of merging of the worlds because I do think there is still some confusion around, as you said when you use one verse of the other and I think a native is helping to bring those together. And I did hear some excitement around that in terms of what people actually expect from us going in the future. I don't know. Be honest. They didn't actually say a whole lot there. I had my own personal opinion, and lot of years would already stayed in terms of emerging. Stop having me pick a technology or pick a terminology, right? Let me just pick the technology. It gets my job done and hopefully that one will solve a lot of my needs. But for the most parts, I think it was really more about Kaneda than anything else. Yesterday, >> I think like Lennox before it. Any technology? At some point you saw this with virtual ization with cloud, with containers with Cooper Netease. And now we're starting to Syria to see with server lists where some of its most vocal proponents are also the most obnoxious in that they're looking at this from a perspective of what's your problem? I'm not even going to listen to the answer. The absolution is filling favorite technology here. So to that end today, what workloads air not appropriate for surveillance in your mind? >> Um, >> so this is hardly an answer because I have the IBM Army running through my head because what's interesting is I do hear people talk about service is good for this and not this or you can date. It is good for this and not this. And I hear those things, and I'm not sure I actually buy it right. I actually think that the only limitations that I've seen in terms of what you should not run on time like he needed or any of the platform is whatever that platform actually finds you, too. So, for example, on eight of us, they may have time limited in terms of how long you can run. If that's a problem for you, don't use it to me. That's not an artifact of service. That's artifact of that particular choice of how the implement service with K native they don't have that problem. You could let it run forever if you want. So in terms of what workloads or good or bad, I honestly I don't have a good answer for that because I don't necessary by some of the the stories I'm hearing, I personally think, try to run everything you can through something like Cain native, and then when it fails, go someplace else is the same story had when containers first came around. They would say, You know when to use BMS vs Containers. My go to answer was, always try containers first. Your life will be a whole lot easier when it doesn't work, then look at the other things because I don't want to. I don't want to try to pigeonhole something like surly or K native and say, Oh, don't even think about it for these things because it may actually worked just fine for you, right? I don't want people to believe negative hype in a way that makes sense, >> and that's very fair. I tend to see most of the constraints around. This is being implementation details of specific providers and that that will dictate answers to that question. I don't want to sound like I'm coming after you, and that's very thoughtful of measured with >> thank you. That's the usual response back. So don't >> go. I'Ll give you the tough one critical guy had in Seattle. Okay, when I looked at K Native is there's a lot of civilised options out there yet, but when I talked to users, the number one out there is a ws Lambda, and number two is probably as your functions. And as of Seattle, neither of those was fully integrated. Since then, I talk to a little startup called Believers Trigger Mash, that that has made some connections between Lambda Ah, and a native. And there was an announcement a couple of weeks ago, Kedia or Keita? That's azure and some kind of future to get Teo K native. So it feels like it's a maturity thing. And, you know, what can you tell us about, you know, the big cloud guys on Felicia? Google's involved IBM Red Hat on and you know Oracle are involved in K Native. So where do those big cloud players? Right? >> So from my perspective, what I think Kenya has going for it over the others is one A lot of other guys do run on Cooper Netease. I feel like they're sort of like communities as well as everything else, like some of them can run. Incriminate is Dr anything else, and so they're not necessary, tightly integrated and leveraging the community's features the way Kay Native is doing. And I think that's a little bit unique right there. But the other thing that I think K native has going for it is the community around it? I think people were doing were noticing. Is that what you said? There's a lot of other players out there, and it's hard for people to choose. And what? I think Google did a great job of this sort of bringing the community together and said, Look, can we stop bickering and develop a sort of common infrastructure? Like Who Burnett is is that we can all then base our surveillance platforms on, and I think that rallying cry to bring the community together across a common base is something a little bit unique for K native. When you compare it with the others, I think that's a big draw for people. Least from my perspective. I know it from IBM Zzzz Well, because community is a big thing for us, >> obviously. Okay, so will there be a bridge to those other cloud players soon as their road map? For that, >> we think a native itself. Yeah, I am not sure I can answer that one, because I'm not sure I heard a lot of talk about bridging per se. I know that when you talk about things like getting events from other platforms and stuff. Obviously, through the eventing side of a native we do went from a serving perspective. I'm not sure I hold her old water. From that perspective, you have >> to be honest. All right, Well, Doug Davis, we're done for This one. Really appreciate all the updates there. And I definitely look forward, Teo, seeing the progress that the servant working group continues to do, so thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Alright for Corey Quinn. I'm stupid and will be back with more coverage here on the Cube. Thanks for watching.