>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube covering A W s reinforce 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web service is and its ecosystem partners. >> Well, welcome back. Everyone's Cube Live coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts, for AWS. Reinforce Amazon Web sources. First inaugural conference around security. It's not Osama. It's a branded event. Big time ecosystem developing. We have returning here. Cube Alumni Bill Jeff for VP of strategy and the partnerships that Iron Net Cyber Security Company. Welcome back. Thanks. General Keith Alexander, who was on a week and 1/2 ago. And it was public sector summit. Good to see you. Good >> to see you. Thanks for >> having my back, but I want to get into some of the Iran cyber communities. We had General Qi 1000. He was the original commander of the division. So important discussions that have around that. But don't get your take on the event. You guys, you're building a business. The minute cyber involved in public sector. This is commercial private partnership. Public relations coming together. Yeah. Your models are sharing so bringing public and private together important. >> Now that's exactly right. And it's really great to be here with eight of us were really close partner of AWS is we'll work with them our entire back in today. Runs on AWS really need opportunity. Get into the ecosystem, meet some of the folks that are working that we might work with my partner but to deliver a great product, right? And you're seeing a lot of people move to cloud, right? And so you know some of the big announcement that are happening here today. We're willing. We're looking to partner up with eight of us and be a first time provider for some key new Proactiv elves. AWS is launching in their own platform here today. So that's a really neat thing for us to be partnered up with this thing. Awesome organization. I'm doing some of >> the focus areas around reinforcing your party with Amazon shares for specifics. >> Yes. So I don't know whether they announced this capability where they're doing the announcement yesterday or today. So I forget which one so I'll leave that leave that leave that once pursued peace out. But the main thing is, they're announcing couple of new technology plays way our launch party with them on the civility place. So we're gonna be able to do what we were only wanted to do on Prem. We're gonna be able to do in the cloud with AWS in the cloud formation so that we'll deliver the same kind of guy that would deliver on prime customers inside their own cloud environments and their hybrid environment. So it's a it's a it's a sea change for us. The company, a sea change for a is delivering that new capability to their customers and really be able to defend a cloud network the way you would nonpregnant game changer >> described that value, if you would. >> Well, so you know, one of the key things about about a non pregnant where you could do you could look at all the flows coming past you. You look at all the data, look at in real time and develop behavior. Lana looks over. That's what we're doing our own prime customers today in the cloud with his world who looked a lox, right? And now, with the weight of your capability, we're gonna be able to integrate that and do a lot Maur the way we would in a in a in a normal sort of on Prem environment. So you really did love that. Really? Capability of scale >> Wagon is always killed. The predictive analytics, our visibility and what you could do. And too late. Exactly. Right. You guys solve that with this. What are some of the challenges that you see in cloud security that are different than on premise? Because that's the sea, So conversation we've been hearing. Sure, I know on premise. I didn't do it on premises for awhile. What's the difference between the challenge sets, the challenges and the opportunities they provide? >> Well, the opportunities air really neat, right? Because you've got that even they have a shared responsibility model, which is a little different than you officially have it. When it's on Prem, it's all yours essential. You own that responsibility and it is what it is in the cloud. Its share responsible to cloud provider the data holder. Right? But what's really cool about the cloud is you could deliver some really interesting Is that scale you do patch updates simultaneously, all your all your back end all your clients systems, even if depending how your provisioning cloud service is, you could deliver that update in real time. You have to worry about. I got to go to individual systems and update them, and some are updated. Summer passed. Some aren't right. Your servers are packed simultaneously. You take him down, you're bringing back up and they're ready to go, right? That's a really capability that for a sigh. So you're delivering this thing at scale. It's awesome now, So the challenge is right. It's a new environment so that you haven't dealt with before. A lot of times you feel the hybrid environment governed both an on Prem in sanitation and class sensation. Those have to talkto one another, right? And you might think about Well, how do I secure those those connections right now? And I think about spending money over here when I got all seduced to spend up here in the cloud. And that's gonna be a hard thing precisely to figure out, too. And so there are some challenges, but the great thing is, you got a whole ecosystem. Providers were one of them here in the AWS ecosystem. There are a lot here today, and you've got eight of us as a part of self who wants to make sure that they're super secure, but so are yours. Because if you have a problem in their cloud, that's a challenge. Them to market this other people. You talk about >> your story because your way interviews A couple weeks ago, you made a comment. I'm a recovering lawyer, kind of. You know, we all laughed, but you really start out in law, right? >> How did you end up here? Yeah, well, the truth is, I grew up sort of a technology or myself. My first computer is a trash 80 a trs 80 color computer. RadioShack four k of RAM on board, right. We only >> a true TRS 80. Only when I know what you're saying. That >> it was a beautiful system, right? Way stored with sword programs on cassette tapes. Right? And when we operated from four Keita 16 k way were the talk of the Rainbow Computer Club in Santa Monica, California Game changer. It was a game here for 16. Warning in with 60 give onboard. Ram. I mean, this is this is what you gonna do. And so you know, I went from that and I in >> trouble or something, you got to go to law school like you're right >> I mean, you know, look, I mean, you know it. So my dad, that was a chemist, right? So he loved computers, love science. But he also had an unrequited political boners body. He grew up in East Africa, Tanzania. It was always thought that he might be a minister in government. The Socialist came to power. They they had to leave you at the end of the day. And he came to the states and doing chemistry, which is course studies. But he still loved politics. So he raised at NPR. So when I went to college, I studied political science. But I paid my way through college doing computer support, life sciences department at the last moment. And I ran 10 based. He came on climate through ceilings and pulled network cable do punch down blocks, a little bit of fibrous placing. So, you know, I was still a murderer >> writing software in the scythe. >> One major, major air. And that was when when the web first came out and we had links. Don't you remember? That was a text based browser, right? And I remember looking to see him like this is terrible. Who would use http slash I'm going back to go for gophers. Awesome. Well, turns out I was totally wrong about Mosaic and Netscape. After that, it was It was it was all hands on >> deck. You got a great career. Been involved a lot in the confluence of policy politics and tech, which is actually perfect skill set for the challenge we're dealing. So I gotta ask you, what are some of the most important conversations that should be on the table right now? Because there's been a lot of conversations going on around from this technology. I has been around for many decades. This has been a policy problem. It's been a societal problem. But now this really focus on acute focus on a lot of key things. What are some of the most important things that you think should be on the table for techies? For policymakers, for business people, for lawmakers? >> One. I think we've got to figure out how to get really technology knowledge into the hands of policymakers. Right. You see, you watch the Facebook hearings on Capitol Hill. I mean, it was a joke. It was concerning right? I mean, anybody with a technology background to be concerned about what they saw there, and it's not the lawmakers fault. I mean, you know, we've got to empower them with that. And so we got to take technologist, threw it out, how to get them to talk policy and get them up on the hill and in the administration talking to folks, right? And one of the big outcomes, I think, has to come out of that conversation. What do we do about national level cybersecurity, Right, because we assume today that it's the rule. The private sector provides cyber security for their own companies, but in no other circumstance to expect that when it's a nation state attacker, wait. We don't expect Target or Wal Mart or any other company. J. P. Morgan have surface to air missiles on the roofs of their warehouses or their buildings to Vegas Russian bear bombers. Why, that's the job of the government. But when it comes to cyberspace, we expect Private Cummings defending us everything from a script kiddie in his basement to the criminal hacker in Eastern Europe to the nation state, whether Russia, China, Iran or North Korea and these nation states have virtually a limited resource. Your armies did >> sophisticated RND technology, and it's powerful exactly like a nuclear weaponry kind of impact for digital. >> Exactly. And how can we expect prices comes to defend themselves? It's not. It's not a fair fight. And so the government has to have some role. The questions? What role? How did that consist with our values, our principles, right? And how do we ensure that the Internet remains free and open, while still is sure that the president is not is not hampered in doing its job out there. And I love this top way talk about >> a lot, sometimes the future of warfare. Yeah, and that's really what we're talking about. You go back to Stuxnet, which opened Pandora's box 2016 election hack where you had, you know, the Russians trying to control the mean control, the narrative. As you pointed out, that that one video we did control the belief system you control population without firing a shot. 20 twenties gonna be really interesting. And now you see the U. S. Retaliate to Iran in cyberspace, right? Allegedly. And I was saying that we had a conversation with Robert Gates a couple years ago and I asked him. I said, Should we be Maur taking more of an offensive posture? And he said, Well, we have more to lose than the other guys Glasshouse problem? Yeah, What are your thoughts on? >> Look, certainly we rely intimately, inherently on the cyber infrastructure that that sort of is at the core of our economy at the core of the world economy. Increasingly, today, that being said, because it's so important to us all the more reason why we can't let attacks go Unresponded to write. And so if you're being attacked in cyberspace, you have to respond at some level because if you don't, you'll just keep getting punched. It's like the kid on the playground, right? If the bully keeps punching him and nobody does anything, not not the not the school administration, not the kid himself. Well, then the boy's gonna keep doing what he's doing. And so it's not surprising that were being tested by Iran by North Korea, by Russia by China, and they're getting more more aggressive because when we don't punch back, that's gonna happen. Now we don't have to punch back in cyberspace, right? A common sort of fetish about Cyrus is a >> response to the issue is gonna respond to the bully in this case, your eggs. Exactly. Playground Exactly. We'll talk about the Iran. >> So So if I If I if I can't Yeah, the response could be Hey, we could do this. Let them know you could Yes. And it's a your move >> ate well, And this is the key is that it's not just responding, right. So Bob Gates or told you we can't we talk about what we're doing. And even in the latest series of alleged responses to Iran, the reason we keep saying alleged is the U. S has not publicly acknowledged it, but the word has gotten out. Well, of course, it's not a particularly effective deterrence if you do something, but nobody knows you did it right. You gotta let it out that you did it. And frankly, you gotta own it and say, Hey, look, that guy punch me, I punch it back in the teeth. So you better not come after me, right? We don't do that in part because these cables grew up in the intelligence community at N S. A and the like, and we're very sensitive about that But the truth is, you have to know about your highest and capabilities. You could talk about your abilities. You could say, Here are my red lines. If you cross him, I'm gonna punch you back. If you do that, then by the way, you've gotta punch back. They'll let red lines be crossed and then not respond. And then you're gonna talk about some level of capabilities. It can't all be secret. Can't all be classified. Where >> are we in this debate? Me first. Well, you're referring to the Thursday online attack against the intelligence Iranian intelligence community for the tanker and the drone strike that they got together. Drone take down for an arm in our surveillance drones. >> But where are we >> in this debate of having this conversation where the government should protect and serve its people? And that's the role. Because if a army rolled in fiscal army dropped on the shores of Manhattan, I don't think Citibank would be sending their people out the fight. Right? Right. So, like, this is really happening. >> Where are we >> on this? Like, is it just sitting there on the >> table? What's happening? What's amazing about it? Hi. This was getting it going well, that that's a Q. What's been amazing? It's been happening since 2012 2011 right? We know about the Las Vegas Sands attack right by Iran. We know about North Korea's. We know about all these. They're going on here in the United States against private sector companies, not against the government. And there's largely been no response. Now we've seen Congress get more active. Congress just last year passed to pass legislation that gave Cyber command the authority on the president's surgery defenses orders to take action against Russia, Iran, North Korea and China. If certain cyber has happened, that's a good thing, right to give it. I'll be giving the clear authority right, and it appears the president willing to make some steps in that direction, So that's a positive step. Now, on the back end, though, you talk about what we do to harden ourselves, if that's gonna happen, right, and the government isn't ready today to defend the nation, even though the Constitution is about providing for the common defense, and we know that the part of defense for long. For a long time since Secretary Panetta has said that it is our mission to defend the nation, right? But we know they're not fully doing that. How do they empower private sector defense and one of keys That has got to be Look, if you're the intelligence community or the U. S. Government, you're Clinton. Tremendous sense of Dad about what you're seeing in foreign space about what the enemy is doing, what they're preparing for. You have got to share that in real time at machine speed with industry. And if you're not doing that and you're still count on industry to be the first line defense, well, then you're not empowered. That defense. And if you're on a pair of the defense, how do you spend them to defend themselves against the nation? State threats? That's a real cry. So >> much tighter public private relationship. >> Absolutely, absolutely. And it doesn't have to be the government stand in the front lines of the U. S. Internet is, though, is that you could even determine the boundaries of the U. S. Internet. Right? Nobody wants an essay or something out there doing that, but you do want is if you're gonna put the private sector in the in the line of first defense. We gotta empower that defense if you're not doing that than the government isn't doing its job. And so we gonna talk about this for a long time. I worked on that first piece of information sharing legislation with the House chairman, intelligence Chairman Mike Rogers and Dutch Ruppersberger from Maryland, right congressman from both sides of the aisle, working together to get a fresh your decision done that got done in 2015. But that's just a first step. The government's got to be willing to share classified information, scaled speed. We're still not seeing that. Yeah, How >> do people get involved? I mean, like, I'm not a political person. I'm a moderate in the middle. But >> how do I How do people get involved? How does the technology industry not not the >> policy budgets and the top that goes on the top tech companies, how to tech workers or people who love Tad and our patriots and or want freedom get involved? What's the best approach? >> Well, that's a great question. I think part of is learning how to talk policy. How do we get in front policymakers? Right. And we're I run. I run a think tank on the side at the National Institute at George Mason University's Anton Scalia Law School Way have a program funded by the Hewlett Foundation who were bringing in technologists about 25 of them. Actually. Our next our second event. This Siri's is gonna be in Chicago this weekend. We're trained these technologies, these air data scientists, engineers and, like talk Paul's right. These are people who said We want to be involved. We just don't know how to get involved And so we're training him up. That's a small program. There's a great program called Tech Congress, also funded by the U. A. Foundation that places technologists in policy positions in Congress. That's really cool. There's a lot of work going on, but those are small things, right. We need to do this, its scale. And so you know, what I would say is that their technology out there want to get involved, reach out to us, let us know well with our partners to help you get your information and dad about what's going on. Get your voice heard there. A lot of organizations to that wanna get technologies involved. That's another opportunity to get in. Get in the building is a >> story that we want to help tell on be involved in David. I feel passion about this. Is a date a problem? So there's some real tech goodness in there. Absolutely. People like to solve hard problems, right? I mean, we got a couple days of them. You've got a big heart problems. It's also for all the people out there who are Dev Ops Cloud people who like to work on solving heart problems. >> We got a lot >> of them. Let's do it. So what's going on? Iron? Give us the update Could plug for the company. Keith Alexander found a great guy great guests having on the Cube. That would give the quick thanks >> so much. So, you know, way have done two rounds of funding about 110,000,000. All in so excited. We have partners like Kleiner Perkins Forge point C five all supporting us. And now it's all about We just got a new co CEO in Bill Welshman. See Scaler and duo. So he grew Z scaler. $1,000,000,000 valuation he came in to do Oh, you know, they always had a great great exit. Also, we got him. We got Sean Foster in from from From Industry also. So Bill and Sean came together. We're now making this business move more rapidly. We're moving to the mid market. We're moving to a cloud platform or aggressively and so exciting times and iron it. We're coming toe big and small companies near you. We've got the capability. We're bringing advanced, persistent defense to bear on his heart problems that were threat analytics. I collected defence. That's the key to our operation. We're excited >> to doing it. I call N S A is a service, but that's not politically correct. But this is the Cube, so >> Well, look, if you're not, if you want to defensive scale, right, you want to do that. You know, ECE knows how to do that key down here at the forefront of that when he was in >> the government. Well, you guys are certainly on the cutting edge, riding that wave of common societal change technology impact for good, for defence, for just betterment, not make making a quick buck. Well, you know, look, it's a good business model by the way to be in that business. >> I mean, It's on our business cards. And John Xander means it. Our business. I'd say the Michigan T knows that he really means that, right? Rather private sector. We're looking to help companies to do the right thing and protect the nation, right? You know, I protect themselves >> better. Well, our missions to turn the lights on. Get those voices out there. Thanks for coming on. Sharing the lights. Keep covers here. Day one of two days of coverage. Eight of us reinforce here in Boston. Stay with us for more Day one after this short break.

>> live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the key covering Cook Con Cloud, Native Con Europe twenty nineteen by Red Hat, The Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back to the Cubes Live coverage of Cloud Native Con Cube Khan, twenty nineteen I'm student of my co host is Corey Quinn and happy to welcome back to the program. Doug Davis, who's a senior technical staff member and PM of a native and happens to be employed by IBM. Thanks so much for joining. Thanks for inviting me. Alright. So, Corey, I got really excited when he saw this Because server lists, uh, is something that, you know he's been doing for a while. I've been poking in, trying to understand all the pieces have done marvelous conflict couple of times and, you know, I guess, I guess layout for our audience a little bit, you know, Kay native. You know, I look at it kind of a bridging the solution, but, you know, we're talking. It's not the, you know, you know, containers or server. Listen, you know, we understand that world, they're spectrums, and there's overlap. So maybe is that is a set up. You know what is the service. Working groups, you know, Charter, Right. So >> the service Working Group is a Sand CF working group. It was originally started back in mid two thousand seventeen by the technical recite committee in Cincy. They basically wanted know what is service all about his new technology is that some of these get involved with stuff like that. So they started up the service working group and our main mission was just doing some investigation. And so the output of this working group was a white paper. Basically describing serval is how it compares with the other as is out there. What is the good use cases for when to use? It went out through it. Common architectures, basically just explaining what the heck is going on in that space. And then we also produced a landscape document basically laying out what's out there from a proprietors perspective as well is open source perspective. And then the third piece was at the tail end of the white paper set of recommendations for the TOC or seen staff in general. What should they do? Do next and basic came down to three different things. One was education. We want to be educate the community on what services, when it's appropriate >> stuff like that >> to what should wait. I'm sorry I'm getting somebody thinks my head recommendations. What other projects we pull into the CNC f others other service projects, you know, getting encouraged in the joint to grow the community. And, third, >> what should we >> do around improbability? Because obviously, when it comes to open source standards of stuff like that, we want in our ability portability, stuff like that. And one of the low hang your food so they identified was, Well, service seems to be all about events. So there's something inventing space we can do and we recognize well, if we could help the processing of events as it moves from Point A to point B, that might help people in terms of middleware in terms of routing, of events, filtering events, stuff like that. And so that's how these convents project that started. Right? And so that's where most of service working group members are nowadays. Is cloud events working or project, and they're basically divine, Eva said. Specification around cloud events, and you kind of think of it as defining metadata to add to your current events because we're not going to tell you. Oh, here's yet another one size fits all cloud of in format, right? It's Take your current events. Sprinkle a little extra metadata in there just to help routing. And that's really what it's all about. >> One of the first things people say about server list is quoted directly from the cover of Missing the Point magazine Server list Runs on servers. Wonderful. Thank you for your valuable contribution. Go away slightly less naive is, I think, an approach, and I've seen a couple of times so far at this conference. When talking to people that they think of it in terms of functions as a service of being able to take arbitrary code and run it. I have a wristwatch I can run arbitrary code on. That's not really the point. It's, I think you're right. It's talking more about the event model and what that unlocks As your application. Mohr less starts to become more self aware. Are you finding that acceptance of that point is taking time to take root? >> Yeah, I think what's interesting is when we first are looking. A serval is, I think, very a lot of people did think of service equals function of the service, and that's all it was. I think what we're finding now is this this mode or people are more open to the idea of sort of as you. I think you're alluding to merging of these worlds because we look at the functionality of service offers things like event base, which really only means is the messages coming in? It just happens to look like an event. Okay, fine. Mrs comes in you auto scale based upon, you know, loaded stuff like that scale down to zero is a one of the key. Thought it was really like all these other things are all these features. Why should you limit those two service? Why not a past platform? Why not? Container is a service. Why would you want those just for one little as column? And so my goal with things like a native though I'm glad you mentioned it is because I think Canada does try to span those, and I'm hoping it kind of merges them altogether and says, Look, I don't care what you call it. Use this piece of technology because it does what you need to do If you want to think of it as a pass. Go for I don't care. This guy over here he wants think that is a FAZ Great. It's the same piece of technology. Does the feature do what you need? Yes or no? Ignore that, nor the terminology around it more than anything else. >> So I agree. Ueda Good, Great discussion with the user earlier and he said from a developer standpoint, I actually don't want to think too much about which one of these pass I go down. I want to reduce the friction for them and make it easy. So you know, how does K native help us move towards that? You know, ideal >> world, right? And I think so fine. With what I said earlier, One of the things I think a native does, aside from trying to bridge all the various as columns is I also look a K native as a simplification of communities because as much as everybody here loves communities, it is kind of complicated, right? It is not the easiest thing in the world to use, and it kind of forced you to be a nightie expert which almost goes against the direction we were headed. When you think of Cloud Foundry stuff like that where it's like, Hey, you don't worry about this something, we're just give us your code, right? Cos well says, No, you gotta know about networks, Congress on values, that everything else it's like, I'm sorry, isn't this going the wrong way? Well, Kania tries to back up a little, say, give you all the features of Cooper Netease, but in a simplified platform or a P I experience that you can get similar Tokat. Foundry is Simo, doctor and stuff, but gives you all the benefits of communities. But the important thing is if for some reason you need to go around K native because it's a little too simplified or opinionated, you could still go around it to get to the complicated stuff. And it's not like you're leaving that a different world or you're entering a different world because it's the same infrastructure they could. This stuff that you deploy on K native can integrate very nicely with the stuff you deploy through vanilla communities if you have to. So it is really nice emerging these two worlds, and I'm I'm really excited by that. >> One thing that I found always strange about server list is a first. It was defined by what it's not and then quickly came to be defined almost by its constraints. If you take a look at public cloud offerings around this, most notably a ws land other there, many others it comes down well. You can only run it for experience, time or on Lee runs in certain run times, or it's something the cold starts become a problem. I think that taking a viewpoint from that perspective artificially hobbles what this might wind up on locking down the road just because these constraints move. And right now it might be a bit of a toy. I don't think it will be as it because it needs to become more capable. The big value proposition that I keep hearing around server listen I've mostly bought into has been that it's about business logic and solving the things that Air corps to your business and not even having to think about infrastructure. Where do you stand on that >> viewpoint? I completely agree. I think a lot of the limitations you see today are completely artificial I kind of understand why they're there, because the way things have progressed, But again, it's one reason I excited like a native is because a lot of those limitations aren't there. Now. Kay native doesn't have its own set of limitations. And personally, I do want to try to remove those. Like I said, I would love it if K native, aside from the service features it offers up, became these simplified incriminate his experience. So if you think about what you could do with Coronet is right, you can deploy a pod and they can run forever until the system decides to crash. For some reason, right, why not do that with a native and you can't stay with a native? Technically, I have demos that I've been running here where I set the men scale the one it lives forever, and teenager doesn't care right? And so deploying an application through K native communities. I don't care that it's the same thing to me. And so, yes, I do want to merge in those two worlds. I wantto lower those constraints as long as you keep it a simplified model and support the eighty to ninety percent of those use cases that it's actually meant to address. Leave the hard stuff for going around it a little. >> Alright, So, Doug, you know, it's often times, you know, we get caught in this bubble of arguing over, you know? You know what we call it, how the different pieces are. Yesterday you had a practitioner Summit four server list. So what? I want to hear his You know, whats the practitioners of you put What are they excited about? What are they using today and what are the things that they're asking for? Help it become, you know, Maur were usable and useful for them in the future. >> So in full disclosure, we actually kind of a quiet audience, so they weren't very vocal. But what little I did here is they seemed very excited by K native and I think a lot of it was because we were just talking about sort of the merging of the worlds because I do think there is still some confusion around, as you said, when to use one versus the other. And I think a native is helping to bring those together. And I did hear some excitement around that in terms of what people actually expect from us going the future. I don't know the honest They didn't actually say a whole lot there. I had my own personal opinion, and lot of is what already stayed in terms of emerging. Stop having me pick a technology or pick a terminology, right? Let me just pick technology gets my job done and hopefully that one will solve a lot of my needs. But for the most part, I think it was really more about Kenya than anything else yesterday. >> I think like Lennox before it. Any technology? At some point you saw this with virtual ization with cloud, with containers with Cooper Netease. And now we're starting to seriously with server lists where some of its most vocal proponents are also so the most obnoxious in that they're looking at this from a perspective of what's your problem? I'm not even going to listen to the answer. The solution is filling favorite technology here. So to that end today, what workloads air not appropriate for surveillance in your >> mind? Um, so this is hardly the answer because I have the IBM Army running through my head because what's interesting is. I do hear people talk about service is good for this and not this or you can date. It was good for this and not this. And I hear those things, and I'm not sure I actually buy it right. I actually think that the only limitations that I've seen in terms of what you should not run on time like he needed or any of the platform is whatever that platform actually finds you, too. So, for example, on eight of us, they may have time limited in terms of how long you can run. If that's a problem for you, don't use it to me. That's not an artifact of service. That's artifact of that particular choice of how the implement service with K native they don't have that problem. You could let it run forever if you want. So in terms of what workloads or good or bad, I honestly I don't have a good answer for that because I don't necessary by some of the the stories I'm hearing, I personally think, try to run everything you can through something like Cain native, and then when it fails, go someplace else is the same story had when containers first came around, they would say, You know when to use viens roses containers. My go to answer was, always try containers first. Your life would be a whole lot easier when it doesn't work, then look at the other things because I don't want to. I don't want to try to pigeonhole something like surly or K native and say, Oh, don't even think about it for these things because it may actually worked just fine for you, right? I don't want people to believe negative hype in a way that makes sense, >> and that's very fair. I tend to see most of the constraints around. This is being implementation details of specific providers and that that will dictate answers to that question. I don't want to sound like I'm coming after you, and that's very thoughtful of measured >> thank you Usual response back. Teo >> I'LL give you the tough one. The critical guy had in Seattle when I looked at K Native is there's a lot of civilised options out there yet, but when I talked to users, the number one out there is a ws lambda, and number two is probably as your functions and as of Seattle, neither of those was fully integrated since then. I talked a little startup called I Believe his Trigger Mash that that has made some connections between Lambda on K Native. And there was an announcement a couple of weeks ago, Kedia or Keita? That's azure and some kind of future to get Teo K native. So it feels like it's a maturity thing. And, you know, what can you tell us about, you know, the big cloud guys on Felicia? Google's involved IBM Red Hat on and you know Oracle are involved in K Native. So where do those big cloud players? Right? >> So from my perspective, what I think Kenya has going for it over the others is one A lot of other guys do run on Cooper Netease. I feel like they're sort of like communities as well as everything else, like some of them can run. Incriminate is Dr anything else, and so they're not necessary. Tightly integrated and leveraging the carbonates features the way Kay native is doing, and I think that's a little bit unique right there. But the other thing that I think K native has going for it is the community around it. I think people were doing were noticing. Is that what you said? There's a lot of other players out there and his heart feel the choose and what? I think Google did a great job of this sort of bringing the community together and said, Look, can we stop bickering and develop a sort of common infrastructure like communities is that we can all then base our surveillance platforms on, and I think that rallying cry to bring the community together across a common base is something a little bit unique for K native. When you compare it with the others, I think that's a big draw for people. Least from my perspective. I know it from IBM Zzzz Well, because community is a big thing for us, obviously. >> Okay, so will there be a bridge to those other cloud players soon as their road map? For that, >> we think a native itself. Yeah, I am not sure I can answer that one, because I'm not sure I heard a lot of of talk about bridging per se. I know that when you talk about things like getting events from other platforms and stuff, obviously, through the eventing side of a native. We do. But from a serving perspective, I'm not sure I hold her old water. From that perspective, you have to be >> honest. All right, Well, Doug Davis, we're done for This one really appreciate all the updates there. And I definitely look forward, Teo, seeing the progress that the servant working group continues to do, so thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Alright for Corey Quinn. I'm stupid and will be back with more coverage here on the Cube. Thanks for watching.

>> about >> fifteen live from basically about a room that is a common club native con Europe twenty nineteen by Red Hat, The >> Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back to the Cubes. Live coverage of Cloud Native Con Cube Khan, twenty nineteen I'm stupid in my co host is Corey Quinn and having a welcome back to the program, Doug Davis, who's a senior technical staff member and PM of a native. And he happens to be employed by IBM. Thanks so much for joining. Thanks for inviting me. Alright, So Corey got really excited when he saw this because server Lis is something that you know he's been doing for a while. I've been poking in, trying to understand all the pieces have done marvelous conflict couple of times and, you know, I guess, I guess layout for our audience a little bit, you know, k native. You know, I look at it kind of a bridging a solution, but, you know, we're talking. It's not the, you know, you know, containers or server lists. And, you know, we understand that world. They're spectrums and there's overlap. So maybe as that is a set up, you know, What is the surveillance working groups? You know, Charter. Right. So >> the service Working Group is a Sand CF working group. It was originally started back in mid two thousand seventeen by the technical recite committee in Cincy. They basically wanted know what is service all about his new technology is that some of these get involved with stuff like that. So they started up the service working group and our main mission was just doing some investigation. And so the output of this working group was a white paper. Basically describing serval is how it compares with the other as is out there. What is the good use cases for when to use that went out through it? Common architectures, basically just explaining what the heck is going on in that space. And then we also produced a landscape document basically laying out what's out there from a proprietors perspective as well is open source perspective. And then the third piece was at the tail end of the white paper set of recommendations for the TOC or seen stuff in general. What do they do next? And basic came down to three different things. One was education. We want to be educate the community on what services when it's appropriate stuff like that. Two. What should wait? I'm sorry I'm getting somebody Thinks my head recommendations. What other projects we pull into the CNC f others other service projects, you know, getting encouraged in the joint to grow the community. And third, what should we do around improbability? Because obviously, when it comes to open source standards of stuff like that, we want in our ability, portability stuff like that and one of the low hang your food should be identified was, well, service seems to be all about events. So there's something inventing space we could do, and we recognize well, if we could help the processing of events as it moves from Point A to point B, that might help people in terms of middleware in terms of routing, of events, filtering events, stuff like that. And so that's how these convents project that started. Right? And so that's where most of service working group members are nowadays. Is cod events working or project, and they're basically divine, Eva said specification around cloud events, and you kind of think of it as defining metadata to add to your current events because we're not going to tell you. Oh, here's yet another one size fits all cloud of in format, right? It's Take your current events. Sprinkle a little extra metadata in there just to help routing. And that's really what it's all about. >> One of the first things people say about server list is quoted directly from the cover of Missing the Point magazine Server list Runs on servers. Wonderful. Thank you for your valuable contribution. Go away slightly less naive is, I think, an approach, and I've seen a couple of times so far at this conference. When talking to people that they think of it in terms of functions as a service of being able to take arbitrary code and running, I have a wristwatch I can run arbitrary code on. That's not really the point. It's, I think you're right. It's talking more about the event model and what that unlocks As your application. Mohr less starts to become more self aware. Are you finding that acceptance of that viewpoint is taking time to take root? >> Yeah, I think what's interesting is when we first are looking. A serval is, I think, very a lot of people did think of service equals function of the service, and that's all it was. I think what we're finding now is this this mode or people are more open to the idea of sort of as you. I think you're alluding to merging of these worlds because we look at the functionality of service offers, things like event based, which really only means is the messages coming in? It just happens to look like an event. Okay, fine. Mrs comes in you auto scale based upon, you know, loaded stuff like that scale down to zero is a the monkey thought it was really like all these other things are all these features. Why should you limit those two service? Why not a past platform? Why not? Container is a service. Why would you want those just for one little as column? And so my goal with things like a native though I'm glad you mentioned it is because I think he does try to span those, and I'm hoping it kind of merges them altogether and says, Look, I don't care what you call it. Use this piece of technology because it does what you need to do. If you want to think of it as a pass, go for I don't care. This guy over here he wants think that is a FAZ Great. It's the same piece of technology. Does the feature do what you need? Yes or no? Ignore that, nor the terminology around it more than anything >> else. So I agree. Ueda Good, Great discussion with the user earlier and he said from a developer standpoint, I actually don't want to think too much about which one of these pass I go down. I want to reduce the friction for them and make it easy. So you know, how does K native help us move towards that? You know, ideal >> world, right? And I think so fine. With what I said earlier, One of the things I think a native does, aside from trying to bridge all the various as columns is I also look a K native as a simplification of communities because as much as everybody here loves communities, it is kind of complicated, right? It is not the easiest thing in the world to use, and it kind of forced you to be a nightie expert which almost goes against the direction we were headed. When you think of Cloud Foundry stuff like that where it's like, Hey, you don't worry about this something, we're just give us your code, right? Cos well says No, you gotta know about Network Sing Gris on values that everything else it's like, I'm sorry, isn't this going the wrong way? Well, Kania tries to back up a little, say, give you all the features of Cooper Netease, but in a simplified platform or a P I experience that you can get similar Tokat. Foundry is Simo, doctor and stuff, but gives you all the benefits of communities. But the important thing is if for some reason you need to go around K native because it's a little too simplified or opinionated, you could still go around it to get to the complicated stuff. And it's not like you're leaving that a different world or you're entering a different world because it's the same infrastructure they could stuff that you deploy on. K Native can integrate very nicely with the stuff you deploy through vanilla communities if you have to. So it is really nice emerging these two worlds, and I'm I'm really excited by that. >> One thing that I found always strange about server list is at first it was defined by what it's not and then quickly came to be defined almost by its constraints. If you take a look at public cloud offerings around this, most notably a ws land other there, many others it comes down well. You can only run it for experience time or it only runs in certain run times. Or it's something the cold starts become a problem. I think that taking a viewpoint from that perspective artificially hobbles what this might wind up on locking down the road just because these constraints move. And right now it might be a bit of a toy. I don't think it will be as it because it needs to become more capable. The big value proposition that I keep hearing around server listen I've mostly bought into has been that it's about business logic and solving the things that Air Corps to your business and not even having to think about infrastructure. Where do you stand on that >> viewpoint? I completely agree. I think a lot of the limitations you see today are completely artificial. I kind of understand why they're there, because the way things have progressed. But again, that's one reason I excited like a native is because a lot of those limitations aren't there. Now, Kay native doesn't have its own set of limitations. And personally, I do want to try to remove those. Like I said, I would love it if K native, aside from the serval ISS features it offers up, became these simplified, incriminate his experience. So if you think about what you could do with Coronet is right, you could deploy a pod and they can run forever until the system decides to crash. For some reason, right, why not do that with a native and you can't stay with a native? Technically, I have demos that I've been running here where I set the men scale the one it lives forever, and teenager doesn't care right? And so deploying an application through K native communities. I don't care that it's the same thing to me. And so, yes, I do want to merge in those two worlds. I wantto lower those constraints as long as you keep it a simplified model and support the eighty to ninety percent of those use cases that it's actually meant to address. Leave the hard stuff for going around it a little. >> Alright, So, Doug, you know, it's often times, you know, we get caught in this bubble of arguing over, you know? You know what we call it, how the different pieces are. Yesterday you had a practitioner Summit four server list. So what? I want to hear his You know, whats the practitioners of you put What are they excited about? What are they using today and what are the things that they're asking for? Help it become, you know, Maur were usable and useful for them in the future. >> So in full disclosure, we actually kind of a quiet audience, so they weren't very vocal. But what little I did here is they seem very excited by K native and I think a lot of it was because we were just talking about that sort of merging of the worlds because I do think there is still some confusion around, as you said when you use one verse of the other and I think a native is helping to bring those together. And I did hear some excitement around that in terms of what people actually expect from us going in the future. I don't know. Be honest. They didn't actually say a whole lot there. I had my own personal opinion, and lot of years would already stayed in terms of emerging. Stop having me pick a technology or pick a terminology, right? Let me just pick the technology. It gets my job done and hopefully that one will solve a lot of my needs. But for the most parts, I think it was really more about Kaneda than anything else. Yesterday, >> I think like Lennox before it. Any technology? At some point you saw this with virtual ization with cloud, with containers with Cooper Netease. And now we're starting to Syria to see with server lists where some of its most vocal proponents are also the most obnoxious in that they're looking at this from a perspective of what's your problem? I'm not even going to listen to the answer. The absolution is filling favorite technology here. So to that end today, what workloads air not appropriate for surveillance in your mind? >> Um, >> so this is hardly an answer because I have the IBM Army running through my head because what's interesting is I do hear people talk about service is good for this and not this or you can date. It is good for this and not this. And I hear those things, and I'm not sure I actually buy it right. I actually think that the only limitations that I've seen in terms of what you should not run on time like he needed or any of the platform is whatever that platform actually finds you, too. So, for example, on eight of us, they may have time limited in terms of how long you can run. If that's a problem for you, don't use it to me. That's not an artifact of service. That's artifact of that particular choice of how the implement service with K native they don't have that problem. You could let it run forever if you want. So in terms of what workloads or good or bad, I honestly I don't have a good answer for that because I don't necessary by some of the the stories I'm hearing, I personally think, try to run everything you can through something like Cain native, and then when it fails, go someplace else is the same story had when containers first came around. They would say, You know when to use BMS vs Containers. My go to answer was, always try containers first. Your life will be a whole lot easier when it doesn't work, then look at the other things because I don't want to. I don't want to try to pigeonhole something like surly or K native and say, Oh, don't even think about it for these things because it may actually worked just fine for you, right? I don't want people to believe negative hype in a way that makes sense, >> and that's very fair. I tend to see most of the constraints around. This is being implementation details of specific providers and that that will dictate answers to that question. I don't want to sound like I'm coming after you, and that's very thoughtful of measured with >> thank you. That's the usual response back. So don't >> go. I'Ll give you the tough one critical guy had in Seattle. Okay, when I looked at K Native is there's a lot of civilised options out there yet, but when I talked to users, the number one out there is a ws Lambda, and number two is probably as your functions. And as of Seattle, neither of those was fully integrated. Since then, I talk to a little startup called Believers Trigger Mash, that that has made some connections between Lambda Ah, and a native. And there was an announcement a couple of weeks ago, Kedia or Keita? That's azure and some kind of future to get Teo K native. So it feels like it's a maturity thing. And, you know, what can you tell us about, you know, the big cloud guys on Felicia? Google's involved IBM Red Hat on and you know Oracle are involved in K Native. So where do those big cloud players? Right? >> So from my perspective, what I think Kenya has going for it over the others is one A lot of other guys do run on Cooper Netease. I feel like they're sort of like communities as well as everything else, like some of them can run. Incriminate is Dr anything else, and so they're not necessary, tightly integrated and leveraging the community's features the way Kay Native is doing. And I think that's a little bit unique right there. But the other thing that I think K native has going for it is the community around it? I think people were doing were noticing. Is that what you said? There's a lot of other players out there, and it's hard for people to choose. And what? I think Google did a great job of this sort of bringing the community together and said, Look, can we stop bickering and develop a sort of common infrastructure? Like Who Burnett is is that we can all then base our surveillance platforms on, and I think that rallying cry to bring the community together across a common base is something a little bit unique for K native. When you compare it with the others, I think that's a big draw for people. Least from my perspective. I know it from IBM Zzzz Well, because community is a big thing for us, >> obviously. Okay, so will there be a bridge to those other cloud players soon as their road map? For that, >> we think a native itself. Yeah, I am not sure I can answer that one, because I'm not sure I heard a lot of talk about bridging per se. I know that when you talk about things like getting events from other platforms and stuff. Obviously, through the eventing side of a native we do went from a serving perspective. I'm not sure I hold her old water. From that perspective, you have >> to be honest. All right, Well, Doug Davis, we're done for This one. Really appreciate all the updates there. And I definitely look forward, Teo, seeing the progress that the servant working group continues to do, so thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Alright for Corey Quinn. I'm stupid and will be back with more coverage here on the Cube. Thanks for watching.

[Music] hi I'm Stu minimun and this is the cube conversation in Silicon angles Palo Alto office happy to welcome back to the program Lear on survival who is the co-founder and CEO of Weka IO thanks so much for joining me thank you for having me over alright so on our research side you know we've really been saying that data is at the center of everything it's in the cloud it's in the network and of course in the storage industry data has always been there but I think especially for customers it's been more front and center well you know why is data becoming more important it's not data growth and some of the other things that we've talked about for decades but you know how was it changing what are you hearing from customers today so I think the main difference is that organization they're starting to understand that the more data they have the better service they're going to provide to their customers and there will be an overall better company than their competitors so about 10 years ago we started hearing about big data and other ways that in a more simpler form just went over sieved through a lot of data and tried to get some sort of high-level meaning out of it last few years people are actually employing deep learning machine learning technique to their vast amounts of data and they're getting much higher level of intelligence out of their huge capacities of data and actually with deep learning the more data you have the better outputs you get before we go into kind of the m/l and the deep learning piece just did kind of a focus on data itself there's some that say you know digital transformation is it's this buzzword when I talk to users absolutely they're going through transformations you know we're saying everybody's becoming a software company but how does data specifically help them with that you know what what what is your viewpoint there and what are you hearing from your customers so if you look at it from the consumer perspective so people now keep track record of their lives at much higher resolution than the and I'm not talking about the images rigid listen I'm talking about the vast amount of data that they store so if I look at how many pictures I have of myself as a kid and how many pictures I have of my kids like you could fit all of my pictures into albums I can probably fit my my kids like a week's worth of time into albums so people keep a lot more data as consumers and then organization keep a lot more data of their customers in order to provide better service and better overall product you know the industry as an industry we saw a real mixed bag when it came to Big Data when I was saying great I have lots more volume of data that doesn't necessarily mean that I got more value out of it so what are the one of the trends that you're seeing why is you know where things like you deep learning machine learning AI you know is it going to be different or is this just kind of the next iteration of well we're trying and maybe we didn't hit as well with big data let's see if this does it does better so I think that Big Data had its glory days and now where they're coming to to the end of that crescendo because people realized that what they got was sort of aggregate of things that they couldn't make too much sense of and then people really understand that for you to make better use of your data you need to employ way similarly to how the brain works so look a lot of data and then you have to have some sense out of their data and once you've made some sense out of that data we can now get computers to go through way more data and make a similar amount of sense out of that and actually get much much better results so just instead of going finding anecdotes or this thing that you were able to do with big date you're actually now are able to generate intelligent systems you know what one of the other things we saw is it used to be okay I have this this huge back catalogue or I'm going to survey all the data I've collected today you know it's much more you know real times a word that's been thrown around for many years you know whether it do you say live data or you know if you're at sensors where I need to have something where I can you know train models react immediately that that kind of immediacy is much more important you know that's what I'm assuming that's something that you're seeing from customers to indeed so what we say is that customers end up collecting vast amounts of data and then they train their models on these kind of data and then they're pushing these intelligent models to the edges and then you're gonna have edges running inference and that could be a straight camera it could be a camera in the store or it could be your car and then usually you run these inference at the endpoints using all the things you've trained the models back then and you will still keep the data push it back and then you should you still run inference at the data center sort of doing QA and now the edges also know to mark where they couldn't make sense of what they saw so the the data center systems know what should we look at first how we make our models smarter for the next iteration because these are closed-loop systems you train them you push through the edges the edges tell you how well you think they think they understood your train again and things improve we're now at the infancy of a lot of these loops but I think the following probably two to five years will take us through a very very fascinating revolution where systems all around us will become way way more intelligent yeah and there's interesting architectural discussions going on if you talk about this edge environment if I'm an autonomous vehicle now from an airplane of course I need to react there I can't go back to the cloud but you know what what happens in the cloud versus what happens at the edge where do where does Weka fit into that that whole discussion so where we currently are running we're running at the data centers so at Weka we created the fastest file system that's perfect for AI and machine learning and training and we make sure that your GPU field servers that are very expensive never sit idle the second component of our system is tearing two very effective object storages that can run into exabytes so we have the system that makes sure you can have as many GPU servers churning all the time and getting the results getting the new models while having the ability to read any form of data that was collected in the several years really through hundreds of petabytes of data sets and now we have customers talking about exabytes of data sets representing a single application not throughout the organization just for that training application yeah so a I in ml you know Keita is that that the killer use case for your customers today so that's one killer application just because of the vast amount of data and the high-performance nature of the clients we actually show clients that runwa kayo finished training sessions ten times faster than how they would use traditional NFS based solutions but just based on the different way we handle data another very strong application for us is around Life Sciences and genomics where we show that we're the only storage that let these processes remain CPU bound so any other storage at some points becomes IO bound so you couldn't paralyzed paralyzed the processing anymore we actually doesn't matter how many servers you run as clients you double the amount of clients you either get the twice the result the same amount of time or you get the same result it's half the time and with genomics nowadays there are applications that are life-saving so hospitals run these things and they need results as fast as they can so faster storage means better healthcare yeah without getting too deep in it because you know the storage industry has lots of wonkiness and it's there's so many pieces there but you know I hear life scientists I think object storage I hear nvme I think block storage your file storage when it comes down to it you know why is that the right architecture you know for today and what advantages does that give you so we we are actually the only company that went through the hassles and the hurdles of utilizing nvme and nvme of the fabrics for a parallel file system all other solutions went the easier route and created the block and the reason we've created a file system is that this is what computers understand this is what the operating system understand when you go to university you learn computer science they teach you how to write programs they need a file system now if you want to run your program over to servers or ten servers what you need is a shirt file system up until we came gold standard was using NFS for sharing files across servers but NFS was actually created in the 80s when Ethernet run at 10 megabit so currently most of our customers run already 100 gigabytes which is four orders of magnitude faster so they're seeing that they cannot run a network protocol that was designed four orders of magnitude last speed with the current demanding workloads so this explains why we had to go and and pick a totally different way of pushing data to the to the clients with regarding to object storages object storages are great because they allow customers to aggregate hard drives into inexpensive large capacity solutions the problem with object storages is that the programming model is different than the standard file system that computers can understand in too thin two ways a when you write something you don't know when it's going to get actually stored it's called eventual consistency and it's very difficult for mortal programmers to actually write a system that is sound that is always correct when you're writing eventual consistency storage the second thing is that objects cannot change you cannot modify them you need to create them you get them or you can delete them they can have versions but this is also much different than how the average programmer is used to write its programs so we are actually tying between the highest performance and vme of the fabrics at the first year and these object storages that are extremely efficient but very difficult to work with at the back and tier two a single solution that is highest performance and best economics right there on I want to give you the last word give us a little bit of a long view you talked about where we've gone how parallel you know architecture helps now that we're at you know 100 Gig look out five years in the future what's gonna happen you know blockchain takes over the world cloud dominates everything but from an infrastructure application in you know storage world you know where does wek I think that the things look like so one one very strong trend that we are saying is around encryption so it doesn't matter what industry I think storing things in clear-text for many organizations just stops making sense and people will demand more and more of day of their data to be encrypted and tighter control around everything that's one very strong trend that we're seeing another very strong trend that we're seeing is enterprises would like to leverage the public cloud but in an efficient way so if you were to run economics moving all your application to the public cloud may end up being more expensive than running everything on Prem and I think a lot of organizations realized that the the trick is going to be each organisation will have to find a balance to what kind of services are run on Prem and these are going to be the services that are run around the clock and what services have the more of a bursty nature and then organization will learn how to leverage the public cloud for its elasticity because if you're just running on the cloud you're not leveraging the elasticity you're doing it wrong and we're actually helping a lot of our customers do it with our hybrid cloud ability to have local workloads and the cloud workloads and getting these whole workflows to actually run is a fascinating process they're on thank you so much for joining us great to hear the update not only on Weka but really where the industry is going dynamic times here in the industry data at the center of all cubes looking to cover it at all the locations including here and our lovely Palo Alto Studio I'm Stu minimun thanks so much for watching the cube thank you very much [Music] you