(upbeat music) >> Welcome back, everyone. Live coverage here at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon here in Detroit, Michigan. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE for special one-on-one conversation with Scott Johnston, who's the CEO of Docker, CUBE alumni, been around the industry, multiple cycles of innovation, leading one of the most important companies in today's industry inflection point as Docker what they've done since they're, I would say restart from the old Docker to the new Docker, now modern, and the center of the conversation with containers driving the growth of Kubernetes. Scott, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> John, thanks for the invite. Glad to be here. >> You guys have had great success this year with extensions. Docker as a business model's grown. Congratulations, you guys are monetizing well. Pushing up over 50 million. >> Thank you. >> I hear over pushing a hundred million maybe. What the year to the ground will tell me, but it's good sign. Plus you've got the community and nurturing of the ecosystem continuing to power away and open source is not stopping. It's thundering away growth. Younger generation coming in. >> That's right. >> Developer tool chain that you have has become consistent. Almost de facto standard. Others are coming in the market. A lot of competition emerging. You got a lot going on right now. What's going on? >> Well, I know it's fantastic time in our industry. Like all companies are becoming software companies. That means they need to build new applications. That means they need developers to be productive and to be safely productive. And we, and this wonderful CNCF ecosystem are right in the middle of that trend, so it's fantastic. >> So you have millions of developers using Docker. >> Tens of millions. >> Tens of millions of developed Docker and as the market's changing, I was commenting before we came on camera, and I'd love to get your reaction, comment on it. You guys represent the modernization of containers, open source. You haven't really changed how open source works, but you've kind of modernized it. You're starting to see developers at the front lines, more and more power going to developers. >> Scott: That's right. >> They want self-service. They vote with their code. >> That's right. >> They vote with their actions. >> Scott: That's right. >> And if you take digital transformation to its conclusion, it's not IT serves the business or it's a department, the company is IT. >> That's right. >> The company is the application, which means developers are running everything. >> Yes, yes. I mean, one of the jokes, not jokes in the valley is that Tesla is in a car company. Tesla is a computer company that happens to have wheels on the computer. And I think we can smile at that, but there's so many businesses, particularly during COVID, that realize that. What happened during COCID? If you're going to the movies, nope, you're now going to Netflix. If you're going to the gym, now you're doing Peloton. So this realization that like I have to have a digital game, not just on the side, but it has to be the forefront of my business and drive my business. That realization is now any industry, any company across the board. >> We've been reporting aggressively for past three years now. Even now we're calling some things supercloud. If companies, if they don't realize that IT is not a department, they will probably be out of business. >> That's a hundred percent. >> It's going to transform into full on invisible infrastructure. Infrastructure as code, whatever you want to call that going, configuration, operations, developers will set the pace. This has a lot to do with some of your success. You're at the beginning of it. This is just the beginning. What can you talk about that in your mind is contributing to the success of Docker? I know you're going to say team, everything, I get that, but like what specifically in the industry is driving Docker's success right now? >> Well, it did. We did have a fantastic team. We do have a fantastic team and that is one of the reasons, primary reasons our success. But what is also happening, John, is because there's a demand for applications, I'll just throw it out there. 750 million new applications are coming in the market in the next two years. That is more applications that have been developed in the entire 40 years history of IT. So just think about the productivity demands that are coming at developers. And then you also see the need to do so safely, meaning ship quickly, but ship safely. And yet 90 some percent of every application consists of open source components that are now on attack surface for criminals. And so typically our industry has had to say one or the other, okay, you can ship quickly but not safely, or you can ship safely, but it's not going to go fast. And one of the reasons I think Docker is where it is today is that we're able to offer both. We're able to unlock that you can ship quickly, safely using Docker, using the Docker toolchain, using integrations we have with all the wonderful partners here at CNCF that is unique. And that's a big reason why we're seeing the success we're seeing. >> And you're probably pleased with extensions this year. >> Yes. >> The performance of extensions that you launched at DockerCon '22. >> Yes. Well, extensions are part of that story and that developers have multiple tools. They want choice, developers like choice to be productive and Docker is part of that, but it's not the only solution. And so Docker extensions allow the monitoring providers and the observability and if you want a separate Kubernetes stack, like all of that flexibility, extensions allows. And again, offers the power and the innovation of this ecosystem to be used in a Docker development and context. >> Well, I want to get into some of the details of some of your products and how they're evolving. But first I want to get your thoughts on the trend line here that we reported at the opening segment. The hot story is WebAssembly, the Wasm, which really got a lot of traction or interest. People enthous about it. >> Interest, yeah. >> Lot of enthusiasm. Confidence we'll see how that evolves, but a lot of enthusiasm for sure. I've never seen something this hyped up since Envoy, in my opinion. So a lot of interest from developers. What is Wasm or WebAssembly is actually what it is, but Wasm is the codeword or nickname. What is Wasm? >> So in brief, WebAssembly is a new application type, full stop. And it's just enough of the components that you need and it's just a binary format that is very, very secure. And so it's lightweight, it's fast and secure. And so it opens up a lot of interesting use cases for developer, particularly on the edge. Another use case for Wasm is in the browser. Again, lightweight, fast, secure also. >> John: Sounds like an app server to me. >> And so we think it's a very, very interesting trend. And you ask, Okay, what's Docker's role in that? Well, Docker has been around eight years now, eight plus years, tens of millions developers using it. They've already made investments in skills, talent, automation, toolchains, pipelines. And Docker started with Linux containers as we know, then brought that same experience to Windows containers, then brought it to serverless functions. About 25% of Amazon Lambdas are OCI image containers. And so we were seeing that trend. We were also seeing the community actually without any prompting from us, start to fork and play with Docker and apply it to Wasm. And we're like, Huh, that's interesting. What if we helped get behind that trend, such that you changed just one line of a Docker file, now you're able to produce Wasm objects instead of Linux containers and just bring that same easy to use. >> So that's not a competition to Docker's? >> Not a competition at all. In fact, very complimentary. We showed off on Monday at the Wasm day, how in the same Docker compose application, multi-service application. One service is delivered via Linux container, Another service is delivered via Wasm. >> And Wasm is what? Multiple languages? 'Cause what is it? >> Yes. So the binary can be compiled from multiple languages. So RAS, JavaScript, on and on and on. At the end of the day, it's a smaller binary that provides a function, typically a single function that you can stand up and deploy on an edge. You can stand up and deploy on the server side or stand up and deploy on the browser. >> So from a container standpoint, from your customer standpoint, what a Linux container is is a similar thing to what a Wasm container is. >> They could implement the same function. That's right. Now a Linux container can have more capabilities that a function might not have, but that's. >> John: From a workflow standpoint. >> That's right. And that's more of a use case by use case standpoint. What we serve is we serve developers and we started out serving developers with Linux containers, then Windows containers, then Lambdas, now Wasm. Whatever other use case, what other application type comes along, we want to be there to serve developers. >> So one of the things I want to get your thoughts on, because this has come up in a couple CUBE interviews before, and we were talking before we came on camera, is developers want ease of use and simplicity. They don't want more steps to do things. They don't want things harder. >> That's right. So the classic innovation is reduce the time it takes to do something, reduce the steps, make it easier. That's a formula of success. >> Scott: That's right. >> When you start adding more toolchains into the mix, you get tool sprawl. So that's not really, that's antithesis to developer. So the argument is, okay, do I have to use a new tool chain for Wasm? Is that a fact or no? >> That's exactly right. That was what we were seeing and we thought, well, how can Docker help with this situation? And Docker can help by bringing the same existing toolchain that developers are already familiar with. The same automation, the same pipelines. And just by changing a line of Docker file, changing a single line of composed file, now they get the power of Wasm unlocked in the very same tools they were using before. >> So your position is, hey, don't adopt some toolchain for Wasm. You can just do it in line with Docker. >> No need to, no need to. We're providing it right there out of the box, ready for them. >> That's raise and extend, as they would say, build Microsoft strategy there. That's nice. Okay, so let's get back into like the secure trusted 'cause that was another theme at DockerCon. We covered that deeply. Software supply chain, I was commenting on my intro with Savannah and Lisa that at some point open source means so plentiful. You might not have to write code. You got to glue together. So as code proliferates, the question what's in there? >> That's right. This is what they call the software supply chain. You've been all over this. Where are we with this? Is it harder now? Is it easier? Was there progress? Take us through what's the state of the art. I think we're early on this one, John, in the industry because I think the realization of how much open source is inside a given app is just now hitting consciousness. And so the data we have is that for any given application, anywhere from 75 to 85% is actually not unique to the developer or the organization. It's open source components that they have put together. And it's really down to that last 15, 25%, which is their own unique code that they're adding on top of all this open source code. So right there, it's like, aha, that's a pretty interesting profile or distribution of value, which means those open source components, where are they finding them? How are they integrating them? How do they know those open source components are going to be supported and trusted and secured? And that's the challenge for us as an industry right now is to make it just obvious where to get the components, how safe they are, who's standing behind them, and how easy it is to assemble them into a working application. >> All right. So the question that I had specifically on security 'cause this had come up before. All good on the trusted and I think that message is evergreen. It's a north star. That's a north star for you. How are you making images more secure and how are you enabling organizations to identify security issues in containers? Can you share your strategy and thoughts on that particular point? >> Yes. So there's a range of things in the secure software supply chain and it starts with, are you starting with trusted open source components that you know have support, that you know are secured? So in Docker Hub today, we have 14 million applications, but a subset of that, we've worked with the upstream providers to basically designate as trusted open source content. So this is the Docker official images, Docker verified publisher images, Docker sponsored open source. And those different categories have levels of certification assurance that they must go through. Generate an SBOM, so you know what's inside that container. It has to be scanned by a scanning tool and those scanning results have to be made available. >> John: Are you guys scanning that? >> So we provide a scanner, they can use another scanner as long as they publish the results of that scan. And then the whole thing is signed. >> Are you publishing the results on your side too? >> Yeah, we published our results through an open database that's accessible to all. >> Free. >> Free, a hundred percent free. You come in and you can see every image on hub. >> So I'm a user, for free I can see security vulnerabilities that are out there that have been identified. >> By version, by layer, all the way through. And you can see tracking all the way back to the package that's upstream. So you know how to remediate and we provide recommendations on how to remediate that with the latest version. >> John: And you don't charge for that. >> We don't charge for that. We do not charge for that. And so that's the trusted upstream. >> So organization can look at the scan, they can look at the scan data and hopefully, what happens if they're not scanned? >> So we provide scanning tools both for the local environments for Docker Desktop, as well as for hub. So if you want to do your own scan, so for example, when you're that developer adding the 15, 25%, you got to scan your stuff as well. Not just leave it up to the already scanned components. And so we provide tools there. We also provide tools to track the packages that that developer might be including in their custom code, all the way back upstream to whatever MPM repo or what have you that they picked up. And then if there's a CVE 30 days later, we also track that as well. We say, Hey, that package was was safe 29 days ago, but today CVE just came out, better upgrade to the latest version and get that out there. So basically if you get down to it, it's like start with trusted components and then have observability not just on the moment. >> And scan all the time. >> Scan all the time and scanning gives you that observability and importantly not just at that moment, but through the lifecycle of the application, through lifecycle of the artifact. So end-to-end 24/7 observability of the state of your supply chain. That's what's key, John. >> That's the best practice. >> That's the key. That's the key. >> Awesome, I agree. That's great. Well, I'm glad we've dug into that's super important. Obviously organizations can get that scanning that's exceed the vulnerabilities, that can take action. That's going to be a big focus here for you, security. It's not going to stop, is it? >> It's never going to stop because criminals are incentive to keep attacking. And so it's the gift that keeps on giving, if you will. >> Okay, so let's get into some of the products. Docker Desktop seems to be doing well. Docker Hub has always been a staple of it. And how's that going? >> Yeah, Docker Hub has 18 million monthly actives hitting it and that's growing by double digits year over year. And what they're finding, going back to our previous thread, John, is that they're coming there for the trusted content. In fact, those three categories that I referenced earlier are about 2000 applications of the 14 million. And yet they represent 56% of the 15 billion downloads a month from Docker Hub. Meaning developers are identifying that, hey, I want trusted source. We raise those in the search results and we have a visual cue. And so that's the big driver of hub's growth right now, is I want trusted content, where do I go? I go to Hub, download that trusted open source and I'm ready to go. >> I have been seeing some chatter on the internet and some people's sharing that they're looking at other places, besides hub, to do some things. What's your message to folks out there around Docker Hub? Why Docker Hub and desktop together? 'Cause you mentioned the toolchain before, but those two areas, I know they've been around for a while, you continue to work on them. What's the message to the folks out there about stay with the hub? >> Sure. I mean the beauty of our ecosystem is that it's interoperable. The standards for build, share and run, we're all using them here at CNCF. So yes, there's other registries. What we would say is we have the 18 million monthly active that are pulling, we have the worldwide distribution that is 24/7 high, five nines reliability, and frankly, we're there to provide choice. And so yes, we have have our trusted content, but for example, the Tanzu apps, they also distribute through us. Red Hat applications also distribute through us because we have the reach and the distribution and offer developers choice of Dockers content, choice of Red Hats content, choice of VMware's, choice of Bitnami, so on so forth. So come to the hub for the distribution to reach and that the requirements we have for security that we put in place for our publishers, give users and publishers an extra degree of assurance. >> So the Docker Hub is an important part of the system? >> Scott: Yes, very much so. >> And desktop, what's new with desktop? >> So desktop of course is the other end of the spectrum. So if trusted components start up on Docker Hub, developers are pulling them down to the desktop to start assembling their application. And so the desktop gives that developer all the tools he or she needs to build that modern application. So you can have your build tooling, your debug tooling, your IDE sitting alongside there, your Docker run, your Docker compose up. And so the loop that we see happening is the dev will have a database they download from hub, a front-end, they'll add their code to it and they'll just rapidly iterate. They'll make a change, stand it up, do a unit test, and when they're satisfied do a git commit, off it goes into production. >> And your goal obviously is to have developers stay with Docker for their toolchain, their experience, make it their home base. >> And their trusted content. That's right. And the trusted content and the extensions are part of that. 'Cause the extensions provide complimentary tooling for that local experience. >> You guys have done an amazing job. I want to give you personal props. I've been following Docker from the beginning when they had the pivot, they sold the enterprise to Mirantis, went back to the roots, modernized, riding the wave. You guys are having a good time. I got to ask the question 'cause people always want to know 'cause open source is about transparency. How you guys making your money? Business is good. How's that work and what was the lucky, what was the not lucky strike, but what was the aha moment? What was the trigger that just made you just kick in this new monetization growth wave? >> So the monetization is per seat, per developer seat. And that changed in November 2019. We were pricing on the server side before, and as you said, we sold that off. And what changed is some of the trends we were talking about that the realization by all organizations that they had to become software companies. And Docker provided the productivity in an engineered desktop product and the trusted content, it provided the productivity safely to developers. And frankly then we priced it at a rate that is very reasonable from an economic standpoint. If you look at developer productivity, developers are paid anywhere from 150 to 300 to 400, 500,000 even higher. >> But when you're paying your developers that much, then productivity is a premium. And what we were asking for from companies from a licensing standpoint was really a modest relative to the making those developers product. >> It's not like Oracle. I mean talk about extracting the value out of the customer. But your point is your positioning is always stay quarter of the open source, but for companies that adopt the structural change to be developer first, a software company, there's a premium to pay because you devalue there. >> And need the tooling to roll it out at scales. So the companies are paying us. They're rolling it out to tens of thousand developers, John. So they need management, they need visibility, they need guardrails that are all around the desktop. So, but just to put a stat on it, so to your point about open source and the freemium wheel working, of our 13 million Docker accounts, 12 are free, about a million are paid for accounts. And that's by design because the open source. >> And you're not gouging developers per se, it's just, not gouging anyone, but you're not taking money out of their hands. It's the company. >> If the company is paying for their productivity so that they can build safely. >> More goodness more for the developer. >> That's right. That's right. >> Gouging would be more like the Oracle strategy. Don't comment. You don't need to comment. I keep saying that, but it's not like you're taxing. It's not a heavy. >> No, $5 a month, $9 a month, $24 a month depending on level. >> But I think the big aha to me and in my opinion is that you nailed the structural change culturally for a company. If they adopt the software ecosystem approach for transforming their business, they got to pay for it. So like a workflow, it's a developer. >> It's another tool. I mean, do they pay for their spreadsheet software? Do they pay for their back office ERP software? They do >> That's my point. >> to make those people popular or sorry, make those people successful, those employees successful. This is a developer tool to make developer successful. >> It's a great, great business model. Congratulations. What's next for you guys? What are you looking for? You just had your community events, you got DockerCon coming up next year. What's on the horizon for you? Put a plugin for the company. What are you looking for? Hiring? >> Yeah, so we're growing like gangbusters. We grew from 60 with the reset. We're now above 300 and we're continuing to grow despite this economic climate. Like our customers are very much investing in software capabilities. So that means they're investing in Docker. So we're looking for roles across the board, software engineers, product managers, designers, marketing, sales, customer success. So if you're interested, please reach out. The next year is going to be really interesting because we're bringing to market products that are doubling down on these areas, doubling down a developer productivity, doubling down on safety to make it even more just automatic that developers just build so they don't have to think about it. They don't need a new tool just to be safer. We hinted a bit about automating SBOM creation. You can see more of that pull through. And in particular, developers want to make the right decision. Everyone comes to work wanting to make the right decision. But what they often lack is context. They often lack like, well, is this bit of code safe or not? Or is this package that I just downloaded over here safe or not? And so you're going to see us roll out additional capabilities that give them very explicit contextual guidance of like, should you use this or not? Or here's a better version over here, a safer version over there. So stay tuned for some exciting stuff. >> It's going to be a massive developer growth wave coming even bigger we've ever seen. Final questions just while I got you here. Where do you see WebAssembly, Wasm going? If you had to throw a dart at the board out a couple years, what does it turn into? >> Yeah, so I think it's super exciting. Super exciting, John. And there's three use cases today. There's browser, there's edge, and there's service side in the data center of the cloud. We see the edge taking off in the next couple years. It's just such a straight line through from what they're doing today and the value that standing up a single service on the edge go. The service side needs some work on the Wasm runtime. The Wasm runtime is not multi-threaded today. And so there's some deep, deep technical work that's going on. The community's doing a fantastic job, but that'll take a while to play through. Browsers also making good progress. There's a component model that Wasm's working on that'll really ignite the industry. That is going to take another couple years as well. So I'd say let's start with the edge use case. Let's get everyone excited about that value proposition. And these other two use cases will come along. >> It'll all work itself out in the wash as open source always does. Scott Johnston, the Chief Executive Officer at Docker. Took over at the reset, kicking butt and taking names. Congratulations. You guys are doing great. Continue to power the developer movement. Thanks for coming on. >> John, thanks so much. Pleasure to be here. >> We're bringing you all the action here. Extracting the signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier, day one of three days of wall-to-wall live coverages. We'll be back for our next guest after this short break. (gentle music)

>>Okay, welcome back everyone to Supercloud 22, this is the cube studio's live performance. We streaming virtually@siliconangledotcomandthecube.net. I'm John for host the cube at Dave Alane with a distinguished panel talking about securing the Supercloud all cube alumni G written house was the CEO of Skyhigh security, Peter Sharma founder of, of QX sold to tenable and Tony qua who's investor. Co-founder former head of product at VMware chance. Thanks for coming on and to our, in all girls super cloud pilot event. >>Good to see you guys big topic. >>Okay. So before we get into secure in the cloud, one of the things that we were discussing before we came on camera was how cloud, the relationship between cloud and on premise and multi-cloud and how Supercloud fits into that. At the end of the day, security's driving a lot of the conversations at the op side and dev shift left is happening. We see that out there. So before we get into it, how do you guys see super cloud Tony? We'll start with you. We'll go down the line. What is Supercloud to you? >>Well, to me, super cloud is really the next evolution, the culmination of the services coming all together, right? As a application developer today, you really don't need to worry about where this thing is. Sit sitting or what's the latency cuz cuz the internet is fast enough. Now I really wanna know what services something provides. What, how do I get access to it now? Security. We'll talk about that later. That that becomes a, a big issue because of the fragmentation of how security is implemented across all the different vendors. So to me it's an IP address I program to it and you know, off we go, but there's a lot of >>You like that pipe happens >>Iceberg chart, right? Like I'm the developer touching the APIs up there. There's a bunch of other things. BU service. >>Okay. Looking forward again. Gee, what's your take? Obviously we've had many conversations on the cube. What's your super cloud update. >>Yeah, so I, I view it as just an extension of what we see today before like maybe 10 years ago we were mashing up applications built on other SAS applications and whatnot. Now we're just extending that down to further primitives, not, we don't really care where our mashup resides, what cloud platform, where it sits to Tony's point, as long as you have an IP address. But beyond that, we're just gonna start to get little micro services and deeper into the applications. >>BP, what should you take? >>I think, I think super cloud to me is something that don't don't exist. It exists only on my laptop. That's the super cloud means to me. I know it takes a lot behind the scene to get that working of and running. But, but essentially, essentially that the everything having be able to touch physically versus not being able to touch anything is super cloud to me. >>So we, what Victoria was saying. Yeah, we see serverless out there, all these cool things happening. Exactly. And you look at the, some of the successful companies that have come in, I call V two cloud. Some are, some are saying the next gen, they're all building on top of the CapEx. I mean, if, why would you not wanna leverage all that work AWS is doing and now Azure, and obviously Google's out there and you got other, other, other clouds out there. But in terms of AWS as a hyperscaler, they're spending all the money and they're getting better. They're getting lower level. We're talking about some of that yesterday, data bricks, snowflake, Goldman Sachs there's industry clouds that could be powerhouse service providers to themselves and their vertical. Then you got specialty clouds. Like there could be a data cloud, there could be an identity cloud. So yeah. How does this sort itself out? How do you guys see that? Because can they coexist? >>But I think they have to right, because I, I think, you know, eventually organizations will get big enough where they can be strong and really market leading in multiple segments. But if you think about what it takes to really build a massive scaled out database company that, that DNA doesn't just overnight translate to identity or translate to video, it takes years to build that up. So in the meantime, all these guys have to understand that they are one part of the service stack to power the next gen solutions. And if they don't play well with each other, then you're gonna have a problem. >>So security, I think is one of the hardest problems of, of super cloud. And not only do you have too many tools and a lack of talent, but you've now got this new first line of defense, which is the cloud. And the problem is you've got multiple clouds. So you've got multiple first lines of defense with multiple cloud provider tools. And then the CISO, I guess, is the next line of defense with the application development team. You know, there to be the pivot point between strategy and execution. And I guess audit is the third line of the defense. So it's an even more complicated environment. So gee, how do you see that CSO role changing and, and can there actually be a unified security layer in Supercloud? >>Yeah, so I believe that that they can be, the role is definitely changing because now a CSO actually has to have a basic understanding of how clouds work, the dependency of clouds on the, on the business that they serve. And, and this is to your point, not only do we have these new lines and opening up in a tax surface, but they're coupled together. So we have supply chain type connections between this. So there's a coherence across these systems that a CISO has to kind of think about not only these Bo cloud boundaries, but the trust boundaries between them. So classic example visibility, wh what, where are these things and what are the dependencies in my business then of course you mentioned compliance. Am I regulatory? And then of course protecting and responding to this, >>You know? Yeah. The, the, the supply chain piece that you just mentioned. I mean, I feel like there's like these milestones stocks, net was a milestone, you know, obvious obviously log four J was another one, the supply chain hack with solar winds. Yep. You know, it's just, the adversary just keeps getting stronger and stronger and, and, and more agile. So, so is this a data? Do we solve this as a data problem? Is it, you know, you can't just throw more infrastructure at it. What are your thoughts >>For it? I think, you know, great, great point that you're brought up. We need to look at things very fundamentally. What is happening is security has the most difficult job in the cloud, especially super cloud. The poor guys are managing some, managing something or securing something that they can't govern, right? Your, your custodian of the cloud as your developers and DevOps, they are the ones who are defining, creating, destroying things in the cloud. And that guy sitting at the end of the tunnel, looking at things that what he gets and he has to immediately respond. That's why it has to be fundamentally solve. Number one, we talked about supply chain. We talked about the, the, the stuck net to wanna cry, to sort of wins, to know the most recent one on the pipeline. Once the interesting phenomena is that the way industry has moved super cloud, the attackers are also moving them super attackers, right? They have stopped. They have not stopped, but they have started slowly moving to the left, which is the governance part. So they have started attacking your source code, you know, impersonating the codes, replacing the binary, finding one is there. So if they can, if the cloud is built so early, why can't I go early and, and, and inject myself. >>So super hackers is coming to super thinking Hollywood right now. I mean, that brings up a good point. I mean, this whole trust thing is huge. I mean, I hear zero trust. I think, wait a minute, that's not the conference I was just at, we went to, we managed, we work with DockerCon and they were talking about trust services. Yeah. So supply chain source code has trust brokering going on. And yet you got zero trust, which is which are they contextually different? I mean, what, what, >>What, from my perspective, though, the same in that zero trust is a framework that starts with minimum privileges and then build up those privileges over time. Normally in today's dialogue, zero trust is around access. I'm not having a broad access. I'm having a narrow access around an application, but you can also extend those principles to usage. What can, how much privilege do I have within an application? I have to build up my trust to enhance and, and get extended privileges within an application. Of course you can then extend this naturally to applications, APIs, applications, talking with each other. And so by you, you have to restrict the attack surface that is based on a trust model fundamentally. And then to your point, I mean, there's always this residual that you have to deal with afterwards. >>So, so super cloud implies more surface area. You're talking about private. So here we go. So how, and by the way, the AWS was supposed to be at this conference. They said they couldn't make it. They had a schedule issue, but they wanted to be here, but I would ask them, how do you differentiate AWS going forward? Do you go IAS all the way? Do you release the pass layer up? How does this solve? Because you have native clouds that are doing great, the complexity on super cloud, and multi-cloud has to be solved. >>Let me offer maybe a different argument. So if you think about we're all old enough to see the history sort of re pendulum shift and it shifting back in a way, if you're arguing that this culmination of all these services in the form of cloud today, essentially moving up stack, then really this is a architectural pattern that's emerging, right? And therefore there needs to be a super cloud, almost operating system. So operating systems, if you build one before you need a scheduler, you need process handler, you need process isolation, you need memory storage, compute all that together. Now that is our sitting in different parts of the internet. And, and there is no operating system. Yes. And that's the gap, right? And so if you don't even have an operating system, how do you implement security? And that's the pain. Yeah, because today it's one off, directly from service to service. Like how many times can you set up SAML orchestration? You can have an entire team doing that, right. If that's, that's what you have to do. So I think that's ultimately the gap and, and we're sort of just revolving around this concept that there's missing an operating system for superpower. >>It's like Maribel Lopez said in the previous panel that Lord of the rings, there will be no one ring rule the ball. Right. Probably there is needs one. Oh yeah. But, but, but, so what happens? So again, security's the hardest problem. So Snowflake's gotta implement its security, you know, data bricks with an open source model has to implement its security. So there's these multiple security models. You talk about zero trust, which I, if, if I infer what you said, gee, it's essentially, if you don't have privilege access, you don't get access. Yeah. Right. If you, okay. Okay. So that's the framework. Fine. And then you gotta earn it over time. Yeah. Now companies like Amazon, they have the, the talent and the skills to implement that zero trust framework. Exactly. So, so the, the industry, you, you guys with the R and D have to actually ultimately build that, that super cloud framework, don't you? >>Yeah. But I would just look all of the major cloud providers, the ones you mentioned and more will have their own framework within their own environment. Right? Yeah. The problem is with super cloud, you're extending it across multiple ones. There's no standards. There's no easy way to integrate that. So now all of that is left to the developer who is like throwing out code as fast as they can >>Is their, their job is to abstract that, I mean, they've gotta secure the, the run time, they gotta secure the container. >>You have to >>Abstract it. Right. Okay. But, but they're not security pros or ops. >>Exactly. They're haves. >>But to, but to G's point, right. If everyone's implementing their own little Z TNA, then inherently, there's a blind trust between two vendors. Right. That has to >>Be, >>That has to be >>Established. That's implicit. You're saying, >>Yeah. But, but it's, it's contractual, it's not technology. Right. Because I'm turning something out in my cloud, you're turning out something in your cloud that says we've got something, some token exchange, which gives us trust. But what happens if that breaks down and whatever happens to the third party comes in? I think that's the problem. >>Yeah. In fact, in fact, the, if I put the, you know, combine one of those commons, the zero trust was build, keeping identity authentication, then authorization in mind, right? Yeah. This needs to be extended because the zero test definition now probably go into integrity. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. I authenticated. I worked well with Tony in the past, but how do I know that something has changed on the Tony's side? Yeah, exactly. Right, right. That, that integrity is going to be very, very foundational. Given developers are building those third party libraries, those source code pumping stuff. The only way I can validate is, Hey, what has changed? >>And then throw edge into the equation, John and IOT and machine to machine. Exactly. It's just, >>Well, >>Yeah. I think, I think we have another example to build on Tony's operating system model. Okay. And that is the cloud access service broker model for SAS. So we, we have these services sitting out there, we've brokered them together. They're normally on user policies. What I can have access to what I can do, what I can't do, but that can be extended down to services and have the same kind of broker arrangement all through APIs. You have to establish that trust and the, and the policies there, and they can be dynamic and all of this stuff. But you can from an, either an operating system or a SAS interaction and integration model come to these same kind of points. So who >>Builds the, the, the secure Supercloud? Is it new guys like you? Is it your old company giants like Palo Alto? Who, who actually builds the and secures the Supercloud it sounds like it's an ecosystem. >>Yeah. It is an ecosystem. Absolutely. It's an ecosystem. >>Yeah. There's no one security Supercloud >>As well. No, but I, I do think there's one, there's one difference in that historically security has always focused on that shiny object. The, the, the, a particular solution to a particular threat when you're dealing with a, a cloud or super cloud, like the number of that is incalculable. So you have to come into some sort of platform. And so you will see if it's not one, you know, a finite number of platform type solutions that are trying to solve this on behalf of the >>Customer. That to your point, then get connected. >>I think it's gonna be like Unix, right? Like how many flavors of Unix were there out there? All of them 'em had a scheduler. All of them had these processes. All of them had their little compilers. You can compile to that system, target to that system. And for a while, it's gonna be very fragmented until multiple parties decide to converge. >>Right? Well, this is, this is the final question we have one minute left. I wish we had more time. This is a great panel. We'll we'll bring you guys back for sure. After the event, what one thing needs to happen to unify or get through the other side of this fragmentation than the challenges for Supercloud. Because remember the enterprise equation is solve complexity with more complexity. Well, that's not what the market wants. They want simplicity. They want SA they want ease of use. They want infrastructure risk code. What has to happen? What do you think each of you? >>So I, I can start and extending to the previous conversation. I think we need a consortium. We need, we need a framework that defines that if you really want to operate in super cloud, these are the 10 things that you must follow. It doesn't matter whether you take AWS slash or GCP, or you have all, and you will have the on-prem also, which means that it has to follow a pattern. And that pattern is what is required for super cloud. In my opinion, otherwise security is going everywhere. They're like they have to fix everything, find everything and so on. So forth, it's not gonna be possible. So they need a, they need a framework. They need a consortium. And it, this consortium needs to be, I think, needs to led by the cloud providers, because they're the ones who have these foundational infrastructure elements and the security vendor should contribute on providing more severe detections or findings. So that's, in my opinion is, should be the model. >>Well, thank you G >>Yeah, I would think it's more along the lines of a business model we've seen in cloud that the scale matters. And once you're big, you get bigger. We haven't seen that coals around either a vendor, a business model, whatnot, to bring all of this and connect it all together yet. So that value proposition in the industry I think is missing, but there's elements of it already available. >>I, I think there needs to be a mindset. If you look again, history repeating itself, the internet sort of came together around set of I ETF, RSC standards, everybody embraced and extended it. Right. But still there was at least a baseline. Yeah. And I think at that time, the, the largest and most innovative vendors understood that they couldn't do it by themselves. Right. And so I think what we need is a mindset where these big guys like Google, let's take an example. They're not gonna win at all, but they can have a substantial share. So how do they collaborate with the ecosystem around a set of standards so that they can bring, bring their differentiation and then embrace everybody >>Together. Guys, this has been fantastic. I mean, I would just chime in back in the day, those was proprietary nosis proprietary network protocols. You had kind of an enemy to rally around. I'm not sure. I see an enemy out here right now. So the clouds are doing great. Right? So it's a tough one, but I think super OS super consortiums, super business models are gonna emerge. Thanks so much for spending the time. Great conversation. Thank you for having us to bring, keep going hour superclouds here in Palo Alto, live coverage stream virtually I'm John with Dave. Thanks for watching. Stay with us for more coverage. This break.

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> After a two-year epic run in tech, 2022 has been an epically bad year. Through yesterday, The NASDAQ composite is down 30%. The S$P 500 is off 21%. And the Dow Jones Industrial average 16% down. And the poor holders at Bitcoin have had to endure a nearly 60% decline year to date. But judging by the attendance and enthusiasm, in major in-person tech events this spring. You'd never know that tech was in the tank. Moreover, walking around the streets of Las Vegas, where most tech conferences are held these days. One can't help but notice that the good folks of Main Street, don't seem the least bit concerned that the economy is headed for a recession. Hello, and welcome to this weeks Wiki Bond Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis we'll share our main takeaways from the first half of 2022. And talk about the outlook for tech going forward, and why despite some pretty concerning headwinds we remain sanguine about tech generally, but especially enterprise tech. Look, here's the bumper sticker on why many folks are really bearish at the moment. Of course, inflation is high, other than last year, the previous inflation high this century was in July of 2008, it was 5.6%. Inflation has proven to be very, very hard to tame. You got gas at $7 dollars a gallon. Energy prices they're not going to suddenly drop. Interest rates are climbing, which will eventually damage housing. Going to have that ripple effect, no doubt. We're seeing layoffs at companies like Tesla and the crypto names are also trimming staff. Workers, however are still in short supply. So wages are going up. Companies in retail are really struggling with the right inventory, and they can't even accurately guide on their earnings. We've seen a version of this movie before. Now, as it pertains to tech, Crawford Del Prete, who's the CEO of IDC explained this on theCUBE this very week. And I thought he did a really good job. He said the following, >> Matt, you have a great statistic that 80% of companies used COVID as their point to pivot into digital transformation. And to invest in a different way. And so what we saw now is that tech is now where I think companies need to focus. They need to invest in tech. They need to make people more productive with tech and it played out in the numbers. Now so this year what's fascinating is we're looking at two vastly different markets. We got gasoline at $7 a gallon. We've got that affecting food prices. Interesting fun fact recently it now costs over $1,000 to fill an 18 wheeler. All right, based on, I mean, this just kind of can't continue. So you think about it. >> Don't put the boat in the water. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good luck if ya, yeah exactly. So a family has kind of this bag of money, and that bag of money goes up by maybe three, 4% every year, depending upon earnings. So that is sort of sloshing around. So if food and fuel and rent is taking up more, gadgets and consumer tech are not, you're going to use that iPhone a little longer. You're going to use that Android phone a little longer. You're going to use that TV a little longer. So consumer tech is getting crushed, really it's very, very, and you saw it immediately in ad spending. You've seen it in Meta, you've seen it in Facebook. Consumer tech is doing very, very, it is tough. Enterprise tech, we haven't been in the office for two and a half years. We haven't upgraded whether that be campus wifi, whether that be servers, whether that be commercial PCs as much as we would have. So enterprise tech, we're seeing double digit order rates. We're seeing strong, strong demand. We have combined that with a component shortage, and you're seeing some enterprise companies with a quarter of backlog, I mean that's really unheard of. >> And higher prices, which also profit. >> And therefore that drives up the prices. >> And this is a theme that we've heard this year at major tech events, they've really come roaring back. Last year, theCUBE had a huge presence at AWS Reinvent. The first Reinvent since 2019, it was really well attended. Now this was before the effects of the omicron variant, before they were really well understood. And in the first quarter of 2022, things were pretty quiet as far as tech events go But theCUBE'a been really busy this spring and early into the summer. We did 12 physical events as we're showing here in the slide. Coupa, did Women in Data Science at Stanford, Coupa Inspire was in Las Vegas. Now these are both smaller events, but they were well attended and beat expectations. San Francisco Summit, the AWS San Francisco Summit was a bit off, frankly 'cause of the COVID concerns. They were on the rise, then we hit Dell Tech World which was packed, it had probably around 7,000 attendees. Now Dockercon was virtual, but we decided to include it here because it was a huge global event with watch parties and many, many tens of thousands of people attending. Now the Red Hat Summit was really interesting. The choice that Red Hat made this year. It was purposefully scaled down and turned into a smaller VIP event in Boston at the Western, a couple thousand people only. It was very intimate with a much larger virtual presence. VeeamON was very well attended, not as large as previous VeeamON events, but again beat expectations. KubeCon and Cloud Native Con was really successful in Spain, Valencia, Spain. PagerDuty Summit was again a smaller intimate event in San Francisco. And then MongoDB World was at the new Javits Center and really well attended over the three day period. There were lots of developers there, lots of business people, lots of ecosystem partners. And then the Snowflake summit in Las Vegas, it was the most vibrant from the standpoint of the ecosystem with nearly 10,000 attendees. And I'll come back to that in a moment. Amazon re:Mars is the Amazon AI robotic event, it's smaller but very, very cool, a lot of innovation. And just last week we were at HPE Discover. They had around 8,000 people attending which was really good. Now I've been to over a dozen HPE or HPE Discover events, within Europe and the United States over the past decade. And this was by far the most vibrant, lot of action. HPE had a little spring in its step because the company's much more focused now but people was really well attended and people were excited to be there, not only to be back at physical events, but also to hear about some of the new innovations that are coming and HPE has a long way to go in terms of building out that ecosystem, but it's starting to form. So we saw that last week. So tech events are back, but they are smaller. And of course now a virtual overlay, they're hybrid. And just to give you some context, theCUBE did, as I said 12 physical events in the first half of 2022. Just to compare that in 2019, through June of that year we had done 35 physical events. Yeah, 35. And what's perhaps more interesting is we had our largest first half ever in our 12 year history because we're doing so much hybrid and virtual to compliment the physical. So that's the new format is CUBE plus digital or sometimes just digital but that's really what's happening in our business. So I think it's a reflection of what's happening in the broader tech community. So everyone's still trying to figure that out but it's clear that events are back and there's no replacing face to face. Or as I like to say, belly to belly, because deals are done at physical events. All these events we've been to, the sales people are so excited. They're saying we're closing business. Pipelines coming out of these events are much stronger, than they are out of the virtual events but the post virtual event continues to deliver that long tail effect. So that's not going to go away. The bottom line is hybrid is the new model. Okay let's look at some of the big themes that we've taken away from the first half of 2022. Now of course, this is all happening under the umbrella of digital transformation. I'm not going to talk about that too much, you've had plenty of DX Kool-Aid injected into your veins over the last 27 months. But one of the first observations I'll share is that the so-called big data ecosystem that was forming during the hoop and around, the hadoop infrastructure days and years. then remember it dispersed, right when the cloud came in and kind of you know, not wiped out but definitely dampened the hadoop enthusiasm for on-prem, the ecosystem dispersed, but now it's reforming. There are large pockets that are obviously seen in the various clouds. And we definitely see a ecosystem forming around MongoDB and the open source community gathering in the data bricks ecosystem. But the most notable momentum is within the Snowflake ecosystem. Snowflake is moving fast to win the day in the data ecosystem. They're providing a single platform that's bringing different data types together. Live data from systems of record, systems of engagement together with so-called systems of insight. These are converging and while others notably, Oracle are architecting for this new reality, Snowflake is leading with the ecosystem momentum and a new stack is emerging that comprises cloud infrastructure at the bottom layer. Data PaaS layer for app dev and is enabling an ecosystem of partners to build data products and data services that can be monetized. That's the key, that's the top of the stack. So let's dig into that further in a moment but you're seeing machine intelligence and data being driven into applications and the data and application stacks they're coming together to support the acceleration of physical into digital. It's happening right before our eyes in every industry. We're also seeing the evolution of cloud. It started with the SaaS-ification of the enterprise where organizations realized that they didn't have to run their own software on-prem and it made sense to move to SaaS for CRM or HR, certainly email and collaboration and certain parts of ERP and early IS was really about getting out of the data center infrastructure management business called that cloud 1.0, and then 2.0 was really about changing the operating model. And now we're seeing that operating model spill into on-prem workloads finally. We're talking about here about initiatives like HPE's Green Lake, which we heard a lot about last week at Discover and Dell's Apex, which we heard about in May, in Las Vegas. John Furrier had a really interesting observation that basically this is HPE's and Dell's version of outposts. And I found that interesting because outpost was kind of a wake up call in 2018 and a shot across the bow at the legacy enterprise infrastructure players. And they initially responded with these flexible financial schemes, but finally we're seeing real platforms emerge. Again, we saw this at Discover and at Dell Tech World, early implementations of the cloud operating model on-prem. I mean, honestly, you're seeing things like consoles and billing, similar to AWS circa 2014, but players like Dell and HPE they have a distinct advantage with respect to their customer bases, their service organizations, their very large portfolios, especially in the case of Dell and the fact that they have more mature stacks and knowhow to run mission critical enterprise applications on-prem. So John's comment was quite interesting that these firms are basically building their own version of outposts. Outposts obviously came into their wheelhouse and now they've finally responded. And this is setting up cloud 3.0 or Supercloud, as we like to call it, an abstraction layer, that sits above the clouds that serves as a unifying experience across a continuum of on-prem across clouds, whether it's AWS, Azure, or Google. And out to both the near and far edge, near edge being a Lowes or a Home Depot, but far edge could be space. And that edge again is fragmented. You've got the examples like the retail stores at the near edge. Outer space maybe is the far edge and IOT devices is perhaps the tiny edge. No one really knows how the tiny edge is going to play out but it's pretty clear that it's not going to comprise traditional X86 systems with a cool name tossed out to the edge. Rather, it's likely going to require a new low cost, low power, high performance architecture, most likely RM based that will enable things like realtime AI inferencing at that edge. Now we've talked about this a lot on Breaking Analysis, so I'm not going to double click on it. But suffice to say that it's very possible that new innovations are going to emerge from the tiny edge that could really disrupt the enterprise in terms of price performance. Okay, two other quick observations. One is that data protection is becoming a much closer cohort to the security stack where data immutability and air gaps and fast recovery are increasingly becoming a fundamental component of the security strategy to combat ransomware and recover from other potential hacks or disasters. And I got to say from our observation, Veeam is leading the pack here. It's now claiming the number one revenue spot in a statistical dead heat with the Dell's data protection business. That's according to Veeam, according to IDC. And so that space continues to be of interest. And finally, Broadcom's acquisition of Dell. It's going to have ripple effects throughout the enterprise technology business. And there of course, there are a lot of questions that remain, but the one other thing that John Furrier and I were discussing last night John looked at me and said, "Dave imagine if VMware runs better on Broadcom components and OEMs that use Broadcom run VMware better, maybe Broadcom doesn't even have to raise prices on on VMware licenses. Maybe they'll just raise prices on the OEMs and let them raise prices to the end customer." Interesting thought, I think because Broadcom is so P&L focused that it's probably not going to be the prevailing model but we'll see what happens to some of the strategic projects rather like Monterey and Capitola and Thunder. We've talked a lot about project Monterey, the others we'll see if they can make the cut. That's one of the big concerns because it's how OEMs like the ones that are building their versions of outposts are going to compete with the cloud vendors, namely AWS in the future. I want to come back to the comment on the data stack for a moment that we were talking about earlier, we talked about how the big data ecosystem that was once coalescing around hadoop dispersed. Well, the data value chain is reforming and we think it looks something like this picture, where cloud infrastructure lives at the bottom. We've said many times the cloud is expanding and evolving. And if companies like Dell and HPE can truly build a super cloud infrastructure experience then they will be in a position to capture more of the data value. If not, then it's going to go to the cloud players. And there's a live data layer that is increasingly being converged into platforms that not only simplify the movement in ELTing of data but also allow organizations to compress the time to value. Now there's a layer above that, we sometimes call it the super PaaS layer if you will, that must comprise open source tooling, partners are going to write applications and leverage platform APIs and build data products and services that can be monetized at the top of the stack. So when you observe the battle for the data future it's unlikely that any one company is going to be able to do this all on their own, which is why I often joke that the 2020s version of a sweaty Steve Bomber running around the stage, screaming, developers, developers developers, and getting the whole audience into it is now about ecosystem ecosystem ecosystem. Because when you need to fill gaps and accelerate features and provide optionality a list of capabilities on the left hand side of this chart, that's going to come from a variety of different companies and places, we're talking about catalogs and AI tools and data science capabilities, data quality, governance tools and it should be of no surprise to followers of Breaking Analysis that on the right hand side of this chart we're including the four principles of data mesh, which of course were popularized by Zhamak Dehghani. So decentralized data ownership, data as products, self-serve platform and automated or computational governance. Now whether this vision becomes a reality via a proprietary platform like Snowflake or somehow is replicated by an open source remains to be seen but history generally shows that a defacto standard for more complex problems like this is often going to emerge prior to an open source alternative. And that would be where I would place my bets. Although even that proprietary platform has to include open source optionality. But it's not a winner take all market. It's plenty of room for multiple players and ecosystem innovators, but winner will definitely take more in my opinion. Okay, let's close with some ETR data that looks at some of those major platform plays who talk a lot about digital transformation and world changing impactful missions. And they have the resources really to compete. This is an XY graphic. It's a view that we often show, it's got net score on the vertical access. That's a measure of spending momentum, and overlap or presence in the ETR survey. That red, that's the horizontal access. The red dotted line at 40% indicates that the platform is among the highest in terms of spending velocity. Which is why I always point out how impressive that makes AWS and Azure because not only are they large on the horizontal axis, the spending momentum on those two platforms rivals even that of Snowflake which continues to lead all on the vertical access. Now, while Google has momentum, given its goals and resources, it's well behind the two leaders. We've added Service Now and Salesforce, two platform names that have become the next great software companies. Joining likes of Oracle, which we show here and SAP not shown along with IBM, you can see them on this chart. We've also plotted MongoDB, which we think has real momentum as a company generally but also with Atlas, it's managed cloud database as a service specifically and Red Hat with trying to become the standard for app dev in Kubernetes environments, which is the hottest trend right now in application development and application modernization. Everybody's doing something with Kubernetes and of course, Red Hat with OpenShift wants to make that a better experience than do it yourself. The DYI brings a lot more complexity. And finally, we've got HPE and Dell both of which we've talked about pretty extensively here and VMware and Cisco. Now Cisco is executing on its portfolio strategy. It's got a lot of diverse components to its company. And it's coming at the cloud of course from a networking and security perspective. And that's their position of strength. And VMware is a staple of the enterprise. Yes, there's some uncertainty with regards to the Broadcom acquisition, but one thing is clear vSphere isn't going anywhere. It's entrenched and will continue to run lots of IT for years to come because it's the best platform on the planet. Now, of course, these are just some of the players in the mix. We expect that numerous non-traditional technology companies this is important to emerge as new cloud players. We've put a lot of emphasis on the data ecosystem because to us that's really going to be the main spring of digital, i.e., a digital company is a data company and that means an ecosystem of data partners that can advance outcomes like better healthcare, faster drug discovery, less fraud, cleaner energy, autonomous vehicles that are safer, smarter, more efficient grids and factories, better government and virtually endless litany of societal improvements that can be addressed. And these companies will be building innovations on top of cloud platforms creating their own super clouds, if you will. And they'll come from non-traditional places, industries, finance that take their data, their software, their tooling bring them to their customers and run them on various clouds. Okay, that's it for today. Thanks to Alex Myerson, who is on production and does the podcast for Breaking Analysis, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight, they help get the word out. And Rob Hoofe is our editor and chief over at Silicon Angle who helps edit our posts. Remember all these episodes are available as podcasts wherever you listen. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can email me directly at david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me at dvellante, or comment on my LinkedIn posts. And please do check out etr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE's Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching be well. And we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE presents KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe, 2022. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to Valencia, Spain, a KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe, 2022. I'm your host, Keith Townsend alongside Paul Gillon, Senior Editor, Enterprise Architecture for SiliconANGLE. We are, I think at the half point way point this to be fair we've talked to a lot of folks in open source in general. What's the difference between open source communities and these closed source communities that we attend so so much? >> Well open source is just it's that it's open it's anybody can contribute. There are a set of rules that manage how your contributions are reflected in the code base. What has to be shared, what you can keep to yourself but the it's an entirely different vibe. You know, you go to a conventional conference where there's a lot of proprietary being sold and it's all about cash. It's all about money changing hands. It's all about doing the deal. And open source conferences I think are more, they're more transparent and yeah money changes hands, but it seems like the objective of the interaction is not to consummate a deal to the degree that it is at a more conventional computer conference. >> And I think that can create an uneven side effect. And we're going to talk about that a little bit with, honestly a friend of mine Alex Ellis, founder of OpenFaaS. Alex welcome back to the program. >> Thank you, good to see Keith. >> So how long you've been doing OpenFaaS? >> Well, I first had this idea that serverless and function should be run on your own hardware back in 2016. >> Wow and I remember seeing you at DockerCon EU, was that in 2017? >> Yeah, I think that's when we first met and Simon Foskett took us out to dinner and we got chatting. And I just remember you went back to your hotel room after the presentation. You just had your iPhone out and your headphones you were talking about how you tried to OpenWhisk and really struggled with it and OpenFaaS sort of got you where you needed to be to sort of get some value out of the solution. >> And I think that's the magic of these open source communities in open source conferences that you can try stuff, you can struggle with it, come to a conference either get some advice or go in another direction and try something like a OpenFaaS. But we're going to talk about the business perspective. >> Yeah. >> Give us some, like give us some hero numbers from the project. What types of organizations are using OpenFaaS and what are like the download and stars all those, the ways you guys measure project success. >> So there's a few ways that you hear this talked about at KubeCon specifically. And one of the metrics that you hear the most often is GitHub stars. Now a GitHub star means that somebody with their laptop like yourself has heard of a project or seen it on their phone and clicked a button that's it. There's not really an indication of adoption but of interest. And that might be fleeting and a blog post you might publish you might bump that up by 2000. And so OpenFaaS quite quickly got a lot of stars which encouraged me to go on and do more with it. And it's now just crossed 30,000 across the whole organization of about 40 different open source repositories. >> Wow that is a number. >> Now you are in ecosystem where Knative is also taken off. And can you distinguish your approach to serverless or FaaS to Knatives? >> Yes so, Knative isn't an approach to FaaS. That's simply put and if you listen to Aikas Ville from the Knative project, he was working inside Google and wished that Kubernetes would do a little bit more than what it did. And so he started an initiative with some others to start bringing more abstractions like Auto Scaling, revision management so he can have two versions of code and and shift traffic around. And that's really what they're trying to do is add onto Kubernetes and make it do some of the things that a platform might do. Now OpenFaaS started from a different angle and frankly, two years earlier. >> There was no Kubernetes when you started it. >> It kind of led in the space and and built out that ecosystem. So the idea was, I was working with Lambda and AWS Alexa skills. I wanted to run them on my own hardware and I couldn't. And so OpenFaaS from the beginning started from that developer experience of here's my code, run it for me. Knative is a set of extensions that may be a building block but you're still pretty much working with Kubernetes. We get calls come through. And actually recently I can't tell you who they are but there's a very large telecommunications provider in the US that was using OpenFaaS, like yourself heard of Knative and in the hype they switched. And then they switched back again recently to OpenFaaS and they've come to us for quite a large commercial deal. >> So did they find Knative to be more restrictive? >> No, it's the opposite. It's a lot less opinionated. It's more like building blocks and you are dealing with a lot more detail. It's a much bigger system to manage, but don't get me wrong. I mean the guys are very friendly. They have their sort of use cases that they pursue. Google's now donated the project to CNCF. And so they're running it that way. Now it doesn't mean that there aren't FaaS on top of it. Red Hat have a serverless product VMware have one. But OpenFaaS because it owns the whole stack can get you something that's always been very lean, simple to use to the point that Keith in his hotel room installed it and was product with it in an evening without having to be a Kubernetes expert. >> And that is and if you remember back that was very anti-Kubernetes. >> Yes. >> It was not a platform I thought that was. And for some of the very same reasons, I didn't think it was very user friendly. You know, I tried open with I'm thinking what enterprise is going to try this thing, especially without the handholding and the support needed to do that. And you know, something pretty interesting that happened as I shared this with you on Twitter, I was having a briefing by a big microprocessor company, one of the big two. And they were showing me some of the work they were doing in Cloud-native and the way that they stretch test the system to show me Auto Scaling. Is that they bought up a OpenFaaS what is it? The well text that just does a bunch of, >> The cows maybe. >> Yeah the cows. That does just a bunch of texts. And it just all, and I'm like one I was amazed at is super simple app. And the second one was the reason why they discovered it was because of that simplicity is just a thing that's in your store that you can just download and test. And it was open fast. And it was this big company that you had no idea that was using >> No >> OpenFaaS. >> No. >> How prevalent is that? That you're always running into like these surprises of who's using the solution. >> There are a lot of top tier companies, billion dollar companies that use software that I've worked on. And it's quite common. The main issue you have with open source is you don't have like the commercial software you talked about, the relationships. They don't tell you they're using it until it breaks. And then they may come in incognito with a personal email address asking for things. What they don't want to do often is lend their brands or support you. And so it is a big challenge. However, early on, when I met you, BT, live person the University of Washington, and a bunch of other companies had told us they were using it. We were having discussions with them took them to Kubecon and did talks with them. You can go and look at them in the video player. However, when I left my job in 2019 to work on this full time I went to them and I said, you know, use it in production it's useful for you. We've done a talk, we really understand the business value of how it saves you time. I haven't got a way to fund it and it won't exist unless you help they were like sucks to be you. >> Wow that's brutal. So, okay let me get this right. I remember the story 2019, you leave your job. You say I'm going to do OpenFaaS and support this project 100% of your time. If there's no one contributing to the project from a financial perspective how do you make money? I've always pitched open source because you're the first person that I've met that ran an open source project. And I always pitched them people like you who work on it on their side time. But they're not the Knatives of the world, the SDOs, they have full time developers. Sponsored by Google and Microsoft, etc. If you're not sponsored how do you make money off of open source? >> If this is the million dollar question, really? How do you make money from something that is completely free? Where all of the value has already been captured by a company and they have no incentive to support you build a relationship or send you money in any way. >> And no one has really figured it out. Arguably Red Hat is the only one that's pulled it off. >> Well, people do refer to Red Hat and they say the Red Hat model but I think that was a one off. And we quite, we can kind of agree about that in a business. However, I eventually accepted the fact that companies don't pay for something they can get for free. It took me a very long time to get around that because you know, with open source enthusiast built a huge community around this project, almost 400 people have contributed code to it over the years. And we have had full-time people working on it on and off. And there's some people who really support it in their working hours or at home on the weekends. But no, I had to really think, right, what am I going to offer? And to begin with it would support existing customers weren't interested. They're not really customers because they're consuming it as a project. So I needed to create a product because we understand we buy products. Initially I just couldn't find the right customers. And so many times I thought about giving up, leaving it behind, my family would've supported me with that as well. And they would've known exactly why even you would've done. And so what I started to do was offer my insights as a community leader, as a maintainer to companies like we've got here. So Casting one of my customers, CSIG one of my customers, Rancher R, DigitalOcean, a lot of the vendors you see here. And I was able to get a significant amount of money by lending my expertise and writing content that gave me enough buffer to give the doctors time to realize that maybe they do need support and go a bit further into production. And over the last 12 months, we've been signing six figure deals with existing users and new users alike in enterprise. >> For support >> For support, for licensing of new features that are close source and for consulting. >> So you have proprietary extensions. Also that are sort of enterprise class. Right and then also the consulting business, the support business which is a proven business model that has worked >> Is a proven business model. What it's not a proven business model is if you work hard enough, you deserve to be rewarded. >> Mmh. >> You have to go with the system. Winter comes after autumn. Summer comes after spring and you, it's no point saying why is it like that? That's the way it is. And if you go with it, you can benefit from it. And that's what the realization I had as much as I didn't want to do it. >> So you know this community, well you know there's other project founders out here thinking about making the leap. If you're giving advice to a project founder and they're thinking about making this leap, you know quitting their job and becoming the next Alex. And I think this is the perception that the misperception out there. >> Yes. >> You're, you're well known. There's a difference between being well known and well compensated. >> Yeah. >> What advice would you give those founders >> To be. >> Before they make the leap to say you know what I'm going to do my project full time. I'm going to lean on the generosity of the community. So there are some generous people in the community. You've done some really interesting things for individual like contributions etc but that's not enough. >> So look, I mean really you have to go back to the MBA mindset. What problem are you trying to solve? Who is your target customer? What do they care about? What do they eat and drink? When do they go to sleep? You really need to know who this is for. And then customize a journey for them so that they can come to you. And you need some way initially of funneling those people in qualifying them because not everybody that comes to a student or somebody doing a PhD is not your customer. >> Right, right. >> You need to understand sales. You need to understand a lot about business but you can work it out on your way. You know, I'm testament to that. And once you have people you then need something to sell them that might meet their needs and be prepared to tell them that what you've got isn't right for them. 'cause sometimes that's the one thing that will build integrity. >> That's very hard for community leaders. It's very hard for community leaders to say, no >> Absolutely so how do you help them over that hump? I think of what you've done. >> So you have to set some boundaries because as an open source developer and maintainer you want to help everybody that's there regardless. And I think for me it was taking some of the open source features that companies used not releasing them anymore in the open source edition, putting them into the paid developing new features based on what feedback we'd had, offering support as well but also understanding what is support. What do you need to offer? You may think you need a one hour SLA for a fix probably turns out that you could sell a three day response time or one day response time. And some people would want that and see value in it. But you're not going to know until you talk to your customers. >> I want to ask you, because this has been a particular interest of mine. It seems like managed services have been kind of the lifeline for pure open source companies. Enabling these companies to maintain their open source roots, but still have a revenue stream of delivering as a service. Is that a business model option you've looked at? >> There's three business models perhaps that are prevalent. One is OpenCore, which is roughly what I'm following. >> Right. >> Then there is SaaS, which is what you understand and then there's support on pure open source. So that's more like what Rancher does. Now if you think of a company like Buoyant that produces Linkerd they do a bit of both. So they don't have any close source pieces yet but they can host it for you or you can host it and they'll support you. And so I think if there's a way that you can put your product into a SaaS that makes it easier for them to run then you know go for it. However, we've OpenFaaS, remember what is the core problem we are solving, portability So why lock into my cloud? >> Take that option off the table, go ahead. >> It's been a long journey and I've been a fan since your start. I've seen the bumps and bruises and the scars get made. If you're open source leader and you're thinking about becoming as famous as Alex, hey you can do that, you can put in all the work become famous but if you want to make a living, solve a problem, understand what people are willing to pay for that problem and go out and sell it. Valuable lessons here on theCUBE. From Valencia, Spain I'm Keith Townsend along with Paul Gillon and you're watching theCUBE the leader in high-tech coverage. (Upbeat music)

>>mhm. Hello and welcome to the cubes Ducker con coverage. I'm John Ferry, host of the Cube. We've got a great segment here with slim dot AI CEO John Amaral. Stealth mode, SAS Company. Start up in the devops space with tools today and open source around. Supply chain security with containers closed beta with developers. John, Thanks for coming on. Congratulations for being platinum sponsor here, Dr Khan. Thanks for coming on The Cube. >>Thanks so much on my pleasure. >>You know, container analysis, management optimisation. You know, that's super important. But security is at the centre of all the action we're seeing with containers. We've been talking shift left on a lot of cube conversations. What that means? Is it an outcome? Is that the product software supply chain? You seek them? A secure where malware. All these things are part of now the new normal in cloud Native. You guys at the centre of this, the surface areas change. All these things are important. Take a minute to explain what you guys are doing as a as a tools and open source. Some of the things you're doing, I know you got a stealth mode product. You probably can't talk about. But you gotta close, Beta. Can you give us a little bit of a teaser? What slim dot ai about >>sure. So someday I is about helping developers build secure containers fast, and that really plays to a few trends in the marketplace that are really apparent and important right now in a federal mandate and a bunch of really highly publicised breaches that have all been caused by software supply, chain risks and security and software supply, chain security has become a really top of mind concept for people who secure things and people who develop software and runs. SAS so slim that AI has built a bunch of capabilities and tools that allow software developers at their desks to better understand and build secure containers that really reduce software supply. Chain risk as you think about containers being run in production. And we do three things to help developers one, as we help them know everything about their software. It's a kind of a core concept of suffering supply chain security. Just know what software is in your containers to. Another core concept is only ship to production. What you need to run. That's all about risk surface and the ability for you to easily make a container small that has as much a software reduction in it as possible. And three, it's removed as many vulnerabilities as possible to Slim Toolset. Both are open source and our SAS data platform make that easy for developers to do >>so. Basically, you have a nice, clean, secure environment. Know what's in there. Don't only put in production was needed and make sure it's tight and it's trimmed down perfectly. So you're kind of teasing out this concept of slimming, which is in the name of the company. But it really is about surface area of attack around containers and super important as it becomes more and more prominent in the environment these days. What is container slimming and why is it important for supply chain security? >>Sure. So in the in the in the realm of software supply chain security, best practises right, there are three core concepts. One is the idea of an S bahn that you should know the inventory of all the software that runs in your world to its security posture, signing containers, making sure that the authenticity of the software that you use and production is well understood. And the third is, well, managing exactly what shopper you ship. The first two things I said are simply just inventory and basics about knowing what software you have. But no one answers the question. What software do I need? So I run a container and say, It's a gig and it's got all these packages in. It comes from the operating system from note, etcetera. It's got all this stuff in it. I know the parts that I write my code to. But all that other stuff, what is it? Why is it there? What's the risk in it? That slimming part is all about managing the list of things you actually shipped to the absolute minimum and with confidence that you know that that code will actually work when it gets production but be as small as possible. That's what slimming is all about, and it really reduces supply chain risk by lowering the attack surface in your container, but also trimming your supply chain to only the minimum pieces you need, which really causes a lot of improvements in in the operational overhead of having software supply chain security >>It's interesting as you get more more volume and velocity around containers, uh, and automation kicks in. Sometimes things are turning on and off you don't even know. And shift left has been a great trend for getting in the CI CD pipeline for developer productivity. Really cool. What are some of the consequences that's going on with this? Because then you start to get into some of these areas like some stuff happens that the developers have to come shift back and can take care of stuff. So, you know, C. Tus and CSOs are really worried about this container dynamic. What's the What's the new thing that's causing the problems here? What's the issue around the management that CDOs and CDOs care about? >>Sure. And I'll talk about the shift left implications as well for that exact point. So as you start to worry about software supply, chain security and get a handle on all the software you ship to prod well, part of that is knowledge is power. But it's also, um, risk and work as soon as I know about problems with my containers or the risk surface, and I got to do something about it so we're really getting into the age where everyone has to know about the software they ship. As soon as you know about that, say there's a vulnerability or a package that's a little risky or some surface area you don't really understand. The only place that can be evaded is by going back to the developers and asking them. What is that? How do I remove it? Please do that work. So the software supply chain security knowledge turns into developer security work. Now the problem is, is that historically, the knowledge was imperfect, and the developer, you know, involvement in that was, I'd say, at Hawk, meaning that developers had best practises that did the best they could. But the scrutiny we have now on minimising this kind of risk is really high. The beautiful part about containers is their portable, and it's an easily transferrable piece of software. So you have a lot of producers and a lot of consumers of containers. Consumers of containers that care about supply chain risk are now starting to push back on, producers saying, Take those vulnerabilities out, move those packages, make this thing more secure, lower the risk profile this works its way all the way back to the developers who don't really have the tools, capabilities and automation is to do the work I just described easily, and that's an opportunity that Slim is really addressing, making it easy for developers to remove risk. >>And that's really the consequences of shifting left without having the slimming. Because what you're saying is your shift left and that's kind of annulled out because you've got to go back and fix it. The work comes, >>that's right. And yeah, and it's not an easy task for a developer to understand the code that they didn't intentionally put in the container. It's like, Okay, there's a package in that operating system. What does it do? I don't know. Do I even use it? I don't know. So there's like tonnes of analytic and I would say even optimisation questions and work to be done, but they're just not equipped to, because the tooling for that is really immature Slims on a mission to make that really easy for them and do it automatically so they don't have to think about it. We just automatically remove stuff you don't use and voila! You've got this like perfectly pre optimised capability. >>You know, this suffer supply chain is huge, and I remember when open source started when I remember when I was breaking into the business. Now it's such a height in such an escalation of new developers. This it's a real issue that that's going to be resolved. It has to be because supply chain is part of open source, right? As more code comes in, you got to verify. You gotta make sure it's it's slimming where it needs to be slim and optimised. There needs to be optimised, huge trend. Um and so I just love this area. I think it's really innovative and needed. So congratulations on that, you know, have one more question for you before we get into to close out. Um, you guys are part of the Docker Extensions launch and your partner, >>Why >>is this important to participate in this programme and and what do you guys hope to hope it does for slim dot ai, >>First of all, doctors, the ubiquitous platform, their hub has millions and millions of containers. We've got millions and millions of developers using Docker desktop to actually build and work on containers. It's like literally the sandbox for all local work for building containers. It's a fair statement. So inclusion in Dr Khan and the relationship we're building with Docker is really important for developers and that we're bringing these capabilities to the place where developers work and live every day. It's where all the containers live in the world. So we want to have our technology be easy to use with docker tools. We want to keep developers workflows and systems and and tools of record be the same. We just want to help them use those tools better and optimist outputs. From that we've we've worked since our inception to make our tools really, really friendly for darker and darker environments to, um, we are building a doctor extension. Uh, they have, uh, in this darker con. They're launching their doctor extensions programme to the worldwide audience. We have been one of the lucky Cos that's been selected to build one of the early Dr desktop plug ins. It's derived from our capabilities and our Saas platform and an open source, and it's it's effectively an MRI machine, an awesome analytic tool that allows any developer to really understand the composition, security and profile of any container they work with. So it's giving the sight to the blind, so to speak, that it's this new tool to make container analysis easy. >>Well, John, you guys got a great opportunity. Container analysis, management, optimisation key to security, enabling it and maintaining and sustaining it. And it's changing. I know you guys. Your co founder also did a doctor Slim. So you guys are deep in the open source. I Congratulations on that. We'll see a Q. Khan for the remaining time. We have give a plug for the company, obviously in stealth mode price going to come out later this year. You got a developer preview? What's What's the company all about? What's the most important story here? Dr. Khan? >>Sure, just to playback. So we help developers do three important things. Know everything about the software in their containers to only ship stuff to production that you need, and and and three remove as many vulnerabilities as possible. That's really about managing and understanding the risk surface. It ties right back to software supply chain security, and any developer can use these tools today to emit and build containers that are more secure and better production grade containers, and it's easy to do. We have an open source project called Dioxin. Go check it out. Uh, it's not. It's on git Hub. It's easy to find if you go to w w w dot slim that ai you can find access to that. We have tens of thousands of developers, 500,000 plus downloads. We have developers everywhere using those tools today and open source to do the objectives. I just said You can also easily sign up for our data for our Saas platform, you can use the doctor extension, go ahead and do that and really get on your journey to make those outcomes reality for you. And really kind of make those SEC ops people downstream not have to shift anything left. It's super easy for you to be a great participant in software slash insecurity. >>All right. John Amaral, CEO slim dot ai Stealth. Most thanks for coming The Cube Cube coverage of Dr Khan. Thanks for watching. I'm John Kerry hosted the Cube back to more Dr Khan after the short break. Mhm mhm

>>And welcome to the DockerCon cube cover here on the main stage. So HIRA RA development manager at J Frogg. Welcome to the cube. You guys have been on many times, uh, with J Frogg on the cube, great product you guys are doing great. Congratulations on all the six. Thanks for coming on the cube. >>Thank you. Thank you for having >>Me. So I'm really interested in talking about the supply chain, uh, package management, supply chain, and software workflow, huge discussion. This is one of the hottest issues that's being solved on by, with, with in DevOps and DevSecOps in, in the planet. It's all over the, all over the news, a real challenge, open source, growing so fast and so successful with cloud scale and with automation, as you guys know, you gotta ha you gotta know what's trusted, so you gotta build trust into the, the product itself. So developers don't have to do all the rework. Everyone kind of knows this right now, and this is a key solve problem you guys are solving. So I gotta ask you, what is the package management issue? Why is it such an important topic when you're talking about security? >>Yeah. Uh, so if you look at, uh, look at how software is built today, about 80 to 90% of that is open source. And currently the way we, the way we pull those open source libraries, we just, we just have blind trust in, in repositories that are central, and we rely on whatever mechanism they have built to, to establish that trust, uh, with the developer who is building it. And from, from our experience, uh, we have learned that that is not sufficient, uh, that is not sufficient to tell us that that particular developer built that end product and, uh, whatever code that they build is actually coming out in the end product. So we need, we need something to bridge that gap. We need, we need a trustworthy mechanism there to bridge that gap. And there are, there are a few other, uh, elements to it. >>Um, all these center depositories are prone to, uh, single point of failures. And, you know, in, we have all experience what happens when one of those goes down and how it stops production and how it, how it stops just software, uh, development, right? And we, what we are working on is how do we build a system where we, we can actually have, uh, liquid software as a reality and just continue to build software, regardless of all these systems of being live all the time, uh, and also have a, an implicit, uh, way of mechanism to trust, uh, what is coming out of those systems? >>You know, we've talked with you guys in the past about the building blocks of software and what flows through the pipelines, all that stuff's part of what is automated these days and, and, and important. And what I gotta ask you because security these days is like, don't trust anything, you know, um, here it's, you're, you're trusting software to be in essence verified. I'm simplifying, obviously. So I gotta ask you what is being done to solve this problem, because states change, you know, you got data, you got software injections, and you got, we got containers and Kubernetes right here, helping all this is on the table now, but what is currently being done to solve the problem? Cause it's really hard. >>Yeah, it is. It is a really hard problem. And currently, right, when we develop software, we have a team, uh, which, which we work with and we trust whatever is coming out of the team. And we have, we have a, um, what do you call certified, uh, pro production mechanism to build that software and actually release it to our customers. And when it is done in house, it is easy because we are, we control all the pieces. Now what happens when, when we are doing this with open source, we don't have that chain. We need that chain, which is independent. We just independent of where the software was, you know, produced versus where it is going to be used. We need a way to have Providence of how it was built, which parts actually went in, uh, making, uh, making the end product. Uh, and, and what are the things that we see are, are, are, uh, continuing, uh, uh, continuing evidences that this software can be used. So if there is a vulnerability that is discovered now, that is discovered, and it is released in some database, and we need to do corrective action to say that this vulnerability associated with this version, and there is no, there's no automated mechanism. So we are working on an automated mechanism where, where you can run a command, which will tell you what has happened with this piece of, uh, software, this version of it, and whether it is production worthy or not. >>It's a great goal. I gotta say, but I'll tell you, I can guarantee there's gonna be a ton of skeptics on this security people. Oh, no, I don't. I doubt it's always a back door. Um, what's the relationship with Docker? How do you guys see this evolving? Obviously it's a super important mission. Um, it's not a trend that's gonna go away. Supply chain software is here to stay. Um, it's not gonna go away. And we saw this in hardware and everyone kind of knows kind of what happens when you see these vulnerabilities. Um, you gotta have trusted software, right? This is gonna be continuing what's the relationship with DockerCon? What are you guys doing with dock and here at DockerCon? >>So we, when we actually started working on this project, uh, both Docker and, uh, J frog had had similar ideas in mind of how, how do we make this, uh, this trust mechanism available to anyone, uh, who wants it, whether they're, whether they're in interacting with dock hub or, or regardless of that, right. And how do we actually make it a mechanism, uh, that just, uh, uh, that just provides this kind of, uh, this kind of trust, uh, without, without the developer having to do something. Uh, so what we worked with, uh, with Docker is actually integrating, um, integrating our solution so that anywhere there, uh, there is, uh, Docker being used currently, uh, people don't have to change those, uh, those behaviors or change those code, uh, those code lines, uh, right. Uh, because changing hand, uh, changing this a single line of code in hundreds of systems, hundreds of CI systems is gonna be really hard. Uh, and we wanted to build a seamless integration between Docker and the solution that we are building, uh, so that, so that you can continue to do Docker pro and dock push and, but get, uh, get all the benefits of the supply chain security solution that we have. >>Okay. So let's step back for a minute and let's discuss about the pro what is the project and where's the commercial J Frogg Docker intersect take that, break that apart, just step out the project for us. What's the intended goals. What is the project? Where is it? How do people get involved and how does that intersect with the commercial interest of JRO and Docker? >>Yeah. Yeah. My favorite topic to talk about. So the, the project is called Peria, uh, Peria is, uh, is an open source project. It is, it is an effort that started with JRO and, and Docker, but by no means limited to just JRO and dock contributing, we already have five companies contributing. Uh, we are actually building a working product, uh, which will demo during, uh, during our, uh, our talk. And there is more to come there's more to come. It is being built iteratively, and, and the solution is basically to provide a decentralized mechanism, uh, similar to similar to how, how you, uh, do things with GI, so that you have, you have the, uh, the packages that you are using available at your nearest peer. Uh, there is also going to be a multi load build verification mechanism, uh, and all of the information about the packages that you're going to use will be available on a Providence log. >>So you can always query that and find out what is the latest state of affairs, what ES were discovered and make, make quick decisions. And you don't have to react after the fact after it has been in the news for a while. Uh, so you can react to your customer's needs, um, uh, as quick as they happen. And we feel that the, our emphasis on open source is key here because, uh, given our experience, you know, 80 to 90% of software that is packaged, contains open source, and there is no way currently, which we, uh, or no engineering mechanisms currently that give us that, uh, that confidence that we, whatever we are building and whatever we are dependencies we are pulling is actually worthwhile putting it into production. >>I mean, you really, it's a great service. I mean, you think about like all that's coming out, open source, open source become very social, too. People are starting projects just to code and get, get in the, in the community and hang out, uh, and just get in the fray and just do stuff. And then you see venture capitals coming in funding those projects, it's a new economic system as well, not just code, so I can see this pipeline beautifully up for scale. How do people get involved with this project? Cause again, my, my questions all gonna be around integration, how frictionless it is. That's gonna be the challenge. You mentioned that, so I can see people getting involved. What's what's how do people join? What do they do? What can they do here at Docker con? >>Yeah. Uh, so we have a website, Percy, I P yr S I a.io, and you'll find all kinds of information there. Uh, we have a GI presence. Uh, we have community meetings that are open to public. We are all, we are all doing this under the, uh, under the umbrella limits foundation. We had a boots scrap project within Linux foundation. Uh, so people who have interest in, in all these areas can come in, just, just attend those meetings, uh, add, uh, you know, add comments or just attend our stand up. So we are running it like a, like a agile from, uh, process. We are doing stand up, we are doing retrospectives and we are, we are doing planning and, and we are, we are iteratively building this. So what you'll see at Dr. Conn is, is just a, a little bit of a teaser of what we have built so far and what you, what you can expect to, uh, see in, in future such events. >>So thanks for coming on the queue. We've got 30 seconds left, put a quick plug in for the swamp up, coming up. >>Yeah. Uh, so we, we will talk a lot more about Peria and our open source efforts and how we would like you all to collaborate. We'll be at swamp up, uh, in San Diego on May 26th, uh, May 24th to 26th. Uh, so hope to see you there, hope to discuss more about Peria and, and see what he will do with, uh, with this project. Thank you. >>All right. Thanks for coming on the back to the main stage. I'm John cube. Thanks for watching. >>Thank >>You.

>>Okay, welcome back to Docker. Main stage is the cube coverage of DockerCon 2022. I'm John FRA host of the cube. We're here with a special segment with sneak. We've been partnering with Docker going back to the early days, Nate cloud native container vulnerability scanning within Docker desktop in 2020. We' it Mick McCulley field strategist sneak Mick. Thanks for coming on the cube. >>Thanks for having me glad to glad to be here. Excited to have this, this, this conversation. >>Yeah, love the background. Got I. Big football fan myself, and love that little mention. There love the sneak logo too. Good, good plug there. Uh, but I want to get into that. The security you guys were of the first conversations when shift left was hot, when it just started to come and it's never going away, but now there's been a huge focus and an increase of concerns around vulnerabilities, uh, within and within the supply chain of security software. So in open source software. So what are you guys doing now? Cause this is a new focus in the industry. Everyone's talking about it, your company's making changes and mitigate that risk. What do you guys have? >>Yeah, that's, it's, it's a great question. And, and shift left is definitely a big focus of ours, right? It's it's what sort of our core foundation is what we based. Um, our whole approach to software supply chain definitely has made its way to the top of the spectrum as far as conversations. And I think it plays very well into our focus. Um, you know, one of the things that, uh, I believe a lot of organizations are focused on is trying to get a hold of understanding a lot of the implicit trust and risk associated with everything that goes into building any sort of modern application. And that's all of the components that are being used. Everything from the open source to the containers that are consumed to the process, into all of the ecosystem and tooling, that's consumed a lot of the trust layers in there. It's, it's extremely important to understand what that is. What's, what's the risk, right? And from a sneak perspective, taking that, that intelligence and trust and giving it back to the developers when they're making these decisions, is, is our focus like that, that whole concept of taking all of that security expertise and pushing it back to the individuals, making those decisions, I think is probably one of the more powerful ways that you can start to implement some more security controls and get some trust and understand your risk process, um, throughout that software supply chain. >>Okay. So you said trust three times, I'm gonna come back to that because shifting left is all about empowering developers, but what good at shifting left? If you gotta stop and then go back and research something that, that wasn't in your pipeline or something else happened. So open source obviously is growing like a weed it's continuing to exponentially grow and more people are doing it commercialization as well, but the word trust is not zero trust. You're hearing, people's use the word zero trust security, that's different, right? They're talking about developers looking for trusted code. So it's interesting, you got hackers and, and zero trust and you got developers and trust and you got software in between. This is kind of the, kind of the core issue here. Isn't it? >>It, it is, um, because of that using, I mean, there's, there's huge advantages with all of these new approaches, right? Leveraging the open source and the containers and the, and the software packages and these ecosystems to automate a lot of those software processes, but doing so means that you've got this implicit trust that's there. And so, um, taking and trying to identify and, and, and share those details with the developers when they're making those decisions, but it doesn't stop there, right? Like that's, that's one of the other important aspects of this is what organizations have to do is to not only provide that and help those individuals when they're making those decisions, but then constantly understand if that posture changes at any given time, right. And knowing where it's happening, what is it, how do I prove and have some of the Providence details of the origination of the information, how can I trust to make sure that the security was, uh, accounted for, for all the components that I'm actually leveraging and using, and then making sure that you have that visibility through that the entire life cycle. That's probably one of the other important areas. So it's not only sort of giving that information in details and trying to take advantage of all of that, that early detection response and decision making process. But it's also maintaining that understanding of what that is, and that trust plays into that, right? There's so much implicit trust associated with it. And the more that you can understand it, comprehend it, take control of it, the better your organization from a security posture's gonna be, >>Yeah. I mean, you got builders and attackers. I mean, it's clearly the spectrum and the builders want the a hundred percent trust. Um, and I think this is gonna be such an important game changing topic that has to be addressed. It's the only way with the scale you're seeing in the growth of software. And by the way, open source become much more than just open source it's community. It's social people kind of hang out and build code together and then ventures are being started over. So this is a nice progression. Makes a lot of sense. I have to ask you though, on what are some of the what's some of the data say on the attacks, is it increasing at what rate what's the complexity look like? What's it look like as it evolves, because, you know, even though it's zero geo trust on one side and trust on the other, the attackers also adjust too. >>Yeah. >>So >>What's, that's, I think it's the staff. >>It's >>A very, yeah, it's a very good question. I think that's what we're seeing is, um, and this is just a natural evolution. I think there's been, you know, an historic focus on a lot of the security associated with, with running applications and locking them down. And I was reading blog just by Docker the other day about how it's like this hardened sort of outside layer, but there's this soft squishy inside that soft squishy inside is all of those building components that are inside of there. And because of that hardened layer, it, it makes those attack vectors a little bit more difficult, right. When you're trying to, to, to penetrate those. And so what we've seen is this natural evolution is say, well, let's go find the weak link. Let's go understand if there's a way to actually bypass these security controls. And sometimes the ways to do that is to simply go into the process in which the application's being built. >>If I can go upstream and actually change some of those components and implement my attack inside of the application, it automatically gets embedded instead of trying to attack it directly. And so we're seeing that, and, and it's, what's banking a lot of the news and why some of the conversations around software supply chain are becoming very prominent, it's this ecosystem. And, um, unfortunately, you know, in a lot of organizations that, that I think some of that development area hasn't had that security focus as a lot of the traditional areas associated with applications and exposure of your organization, because of that it's left a little bit more exposed, right? That, that trust that we talked about in addition to the processes has to have a little bit more of that security ingrained inside of those processes to make sure that it's not being left open. It's not an open door, an open window that's giving sort of an easy route into the application. >>Yeah, totally. I totally see that in the next, in the last couple minutes we have left. I want to get into what you guys are doing with your customers and what our company's doing to mitigate the risks in the software supply chain. Obviously open source is not going away. It's only gonna be part of it what's going on with the customers. >>Yeah, it's, it's a great question. And a big focus of ours is to, um, help organizations understand all of those areas as much as possible, right. And to provide them that guidance. And part of this is not only the solution and how we deploy it and how we can deliver it, but it's some of the security intelligence associated with it instead of putting the burden on our customers of trying to stay on top of all of that risk. Right? What, what, where is all of these different moving parts and something changes from being completely fine one day to, you know, a high vulnerability and risk posture. How do you react to that? And so providing as much of that insight, guidance and prioritization and the details to those organizations in, in an actionable format, um, that's probably one of the more core elements to this. >>It's not just the, Hey, here's a whole list of all your problems. It's what do you do? Like how do you take all of that information, those details, those risks, how do you prioritize them? How do you then what, what's the steps that you take from an action perspective in order to address those, right. If I've got a container with some problems, what is sort of the recommended approach to solving that? What should I upgrade to? What is the guides associated with those? And so a lot of it is focused on providing not only the insight and the ability to react and understand that risk at any given time, but also more focused on what do you gotta do, right? How do you actually take steps to alleviate or remediate that risk as much as possible? Can't not, that's >>The point what's so I gotta have to ask you, what's the difference between getting it right and getting it wrong, or in other words, why do some, um, supply chain vulnerable remain fixed, uh, unfixed and, and deprioritize? What's the, why isn't it going faster? >>Yeah. And, and some of that there's there's reasons across the board, right? Some of it crossed from the perspective that there, there might not be fixes. And so in some of those cases, just being aware of what that risk is. So you can put in other mitigating controls in order to accommodate those. In other cases, it's, it's prioritizing where your risk is most important, right. And part of this also stems from the fact that I, if you fall into sort of that reactionary bucket, then, then you have to be in sort of that prioritization reactive mode. The more that you can push this back to that early process, the less that that has to occur, because you have the ability to actually make the best decision possible with the information you have during that early process. So some of it's just, you know, predicated on the fact that there's not always solutions to all of the problems. Um, and then a part of this too, is where in the, where in the phase are you actually starting to attack and handle it? >>All right, Mick. Thanks. So for coming on, really appreciate it. Business is good at sneak. Thanks for sharing your insights here on the, on the main stage. Okay. This is the queue back to the DockerCon main stage. We'll be back more. See you soon.

(upbeat music) >> Hi, everyone welcome back to theCUBE's main stage coverage of DockerCon 2022. We got a great guest from Intel here, Ajay Mungara Senior Director of Edge Software and AI at Intel talking about cloud native and AI workloads at The Edge and building a better developer ecosystem for The Edge which we all know those where the actions going cloud native, compute data, data as code. These are things we've been talking about, so Ajay, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, John. I'm really happy to be here in DockerCon and everything we do Docker makes it better. >> Well, you guys have done a lot in your career and looking at your background, The Edge was manufacturing the old school IOT stuff. Now that's converged completely in with cloud native IP technologies. Everything's kind of happening now at The Edge. This is where the problems are now shifting in solving because of the goodness of the cloud and what that's done for cloud operations which essentially distributed computing is making The Edge the battleground for where the innovation's happening. Could you just share with us your view of why The Edge is so important and why it's different than what we've been seeing in pure cloud on and on premise data centers? >> Yeah, you know 75% of the data that is getting generated of late is happening at The Edge. Okay, so there's a lot of value, there's a lot of value that's getting generated at The Edge because most of the compute we want to move it where closest to the data because of latency issues, bandwidth issues, security issues all of those things is getting people to move compute storage data towards more at The Edge. There's also one big shift from a developer point of view where 51% of all of the developers in the world have deployed in somewhere the other cloud native Docker based solutions out there, okay. What we are seeing is the combination of cloud computing, networking, edge computing all of that coming together. And that is where it is pushing the envelope from The Edge perspective. And one of the big drivers is AI at The Edge as well, right. The Edge inference workloads that is really happening with camera as one of the sensors is really driving that compute. And your question about what's so different about it. The challenges at The Edge are compounded because it's bringing together the operational technology, the information technology processes and cloud computing environments along with networking all together. So when a developer wants to build a solution for The Edge they have to figure out what part of that workload sits in the cloud, how they're going to move that workload towards The Edge using some form of networking. How are they going to protect the data in transport as well as at rest, because Edge devices can get stolen, you know. So there is all of these challenges about like how do you like figure out the trade offs between price, performance, functionality, power, heat, size, weight everything matters when you talk about The Edge. So anyway, that is why we see those differences. >> It's interesting you know you do a little go back in history and distribute computing, the movies still the same. Remember back in the day when I was breaking into the business memory was the bottleneck and storage was the resource. And you had to swap out memory, and as a developer you had to deal with that. Then memory became abundant and storage was the problem. Now you got networking is the latency problem. So again, these are a challenges that developers have to weave through, I was going to ask the question of why is The Edge important for the and what's in it for the developer, why should they care about The Edge? And I think what you were saying is there's design decisions going on around how to code, can you elaborate on what's in it for the developer? Why should they care about The Edge? >> Developers have to really care about The Edge is because when you are really building a solution you cannot move the data and make all the decisions at the cloud because it's late, right, sometimes latency, your bandwidth costs, your solution costs are going to get increased. And because of security and privacy concerns sometimes you have to make those decisions at The Edge itself. You will have to figure out only take the data strategically to the cloud where it makes sense, okay. And that is the reason why developers have no choice but they have to focus on the combination of cloud networking and edge, and that's where we are seeing a large scale set of deployments that are happening today. >> Yeah, and I can see the business value too which is one of the big themes that DockerCon this year is tracks on that people talking about that. Are you seeing trends like headless retail, which is basically, it's not Shopify managed service, it's more of you build your own stack and you put the head on there which is the application and business model. >> Right. >> So again, that's an example. There's also the manufacturing, there's automotive all kinds of use cases where there's money making opportunities, right. So there's business value there, so the developer's going to be pulled to The Edge 'cause they're in the front lines now. So this is about making The Edge ready, and I want to hear your thoughts on what Intel's doing to make that developer environment ready for The Edge because we know the developer on the front lines today and that front line vanguard will be The Edge. What's it look like? >> Exactly, right, so what we have done is we have created this environment for developers which we call it as IntelDevCloud. And in this dev cloud which is Kubernetes based environment where we support all of the Docker workloads and it's based off of Red Hat OpenShift. And we thought about this a little differently. What we did is it's a cloud environment where you could use a browser to do all of your development build test and all of that. But we also took a whole range of these edge devices and we made it available in the cloud. So as a developer, you don't have to have an edge device sitting at your desk. You have an edge device or a plethora of edge devices sitting in the cloud. So you have one environment where you have cloud, you have network, and you have all these edge nodes. So you could start building your solution, you could start building your cloud native or edge native solutions, test it, benchmark it, and figure out how and what type of combination that you actually need for your final solution as you said in retail, in smart cities, in healthcare, any of these vertical markets and get your solution closer to being a deployment ready. >> Yeah, and I love your description by the way it's called a container playground. I mean, it's just comes across as fun. And I think this idea of having these nodes available you guys bring a lot of expertise at the table. That's almost like your local host for Edge devices, right? You can work with it in a safe environment, am I getting that right. >> You're getting that right, and in fact, during the pandemic when we are all working remote, right, nobody has access to these labs where you have all these Edge devices available to you, you could actually play with all these network simulators everything. Now with dev all these developers spread all over the world, you don't have access to as many of those edge devices. So now with browser, with this container playground, you could develop any of your Docker composed, Docker based container workloads and try it on all of these edge devices which may range from an Intel's point of view, CPUs, VPUs, GPUS, anything, right. >> We know there's a lot of compute at The Edge which always ever helps in Intel but your north star is about making it easier for the developers as you guys invest cloud network and The Edge and the cloud native world, that's the goal. How do you do that? And what should the developers optimize for it sounds like they're going to learn with this playground that you have the dev cloud. What are you seeing that they're going to learn to optimize for? Is it like I use the oldest school example of memory optimization, swapping memory out and that kind of thing but what's the new issues that need to be optimized for your developer. >> If you're a developer you got to optimize for your edge AI workloads, right, so that means AI inference workloads. You have to look at like saying that how can I take like a model that is developed in a some type of a cloud environment, like a TensorFlow model or a Pieto model, bring it down to The Edge. And then you have to do inference workloads. You need to understand to do this inference, what type of compute you need, what type of storage do you need? What type of memory do you need? And we give you those options where you could optimize those type of inference AI, inference workloads, you could actually do that. Then you also can decide like what type of decisions you want to make at The Edge what decisions you want to make at the cloud. We give you those options and flexibility for you to build those solutions. >> Great. >> One last point I'll make is there's a lot of legacy applications that have been developed which is traditional embedded applications. We are also want to teach developers how to take these applications and containerize them. How to take advantage of the cloud native DevOps type of paradigms that it would make your life easier when it comes to scaling your solution, deploying your solution worldwide. >> All right, Ajay, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE DevCloud, a container playground. Now back to you at the main stage at DockerCon. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome to the cubes dock, our main stage coverage here at DockerCon 2022. I'm John furrier, host of the cube. We're here with cube alumni, a partner scene, the senior director of product and the developer platform at Google cloud, a partner. Great to see you. It's been a while how's things >>Great to see you, John. Thanks for having me. >>So obviously we've covered a lot about the Google's history and open source. If you go back, I mean go back generation 2000, it all started, it continues to continue to thrive the SDO, all the different projects you guys are around the future of containers and serverless all there. Give us the update. Why are customers choosing Google cloud? We're here at Docker con what's the big update from Google cloud's perspective from a, from a developer perspective? >>Well, John, uh, Google cloud has been, uh, the early cloud on containers, um, and by all measures from, we can, from what we can see, you know, it is the preferred cloud for container native workloads. Um, I think why our customers choosing cloud there's a, there's a few different reasons. Um, definitely one of the reasons is because it is a flexible and open platform. And I think that that is, uh, distinctive about Google cloud, as you mentioned, uh, many, many open source projects coming from Google and Google cloud in particular over the last 20 years, um, spanning, um, languages, um, you know, obviously, uh, the go programming language all the way to of course, Kubernetes. Um, and then, uh, more recently Isto and, uh, K native and many more, uh Tecton is one of the leading projects as well. Um, in the C I C D space. >>So I think that, uh, history is something that really attracts the developer population. It's also very, very important for enterprises that are, uh, modernizing and looking to accelerate their, uh, developer productivity. So that's been one major reason. I think the second major reason is really the security aspect, um, of the developer tool chain and in particular related to open source secure well, and I think the third, uh, reason that comes out, um, quite frequently when we, when we talk to our enterprise customers is Google cloud is unique in the multi-cloud space. Um, you know, one of the first, I think probably the first and, uh, only cloud provider to have a very strong multi-cloud strategy, uh, and that stems from the open source roots, but also, you know, uh, bringing more than just, uh, compute, bringing many of our data services also, uh, to the multi-cloud space. I think that's, those are the three reasons why, uh, developers often choose Google cloud. >>Yeah. And you see the multi-cloud also in a distributed computing environment. It's, I mean, multi-cloud is basically distributed computing where you've got hyperscalers and then edges emerging very quickly. Of course, we've talked about that in the past, on previous interviews, how security at the edge software opensource all coming together. Again, Kubernetes launched by Google contributed to the open source world that everyone knows that, or may not know that. Um, but, but that's key. Where do you see the container position come in? Because at the end of the day, containers is standard and now you've got Kubernetes and other parts wrapped around it. Where's container technology going in the coming, coming in the future years. Is it gonna be invisible? Is it gonna be programmable? What's your vision on that? >>This is an excellent question. And you're exactly right. You're seeing containers become mainstream. And some of the latest, uh, state of the, the state of the cloud business report, you're seeing, you know, 80% of enterprises, um, having some form of a container program and I've been involved in this industry since the very early days. So this is something we've been predicting, um, and it is happening even faster than expected. So that's becoming very mainstream, which is extremely exciting for us. Now you ask, you know, what is the future and what is the evolution of it? Um, so, and, and I think, uh, this is the right question because, um, you're seeing a lot of the future actually on Google cloud. Um, we're, we've won the, uh, Gartner and Forester quadrants as far as leader quadrants in, uh, you know, container offerings. And that's not just Kubernetes, of course, uh, Google Kubernetes engine has been, has been the leading area, but there's a whole host of offerings around that. >>Um, in particular I'd like to point out serverless containers with cloud run, as well as the entire DevOps pipeline around containers. And that's a big topic in the industry right now. It brings in, uh, security as related to, uh, developers. And then of course, uh, you know, providing an automated, secure pipeline for DevOps, um, as it relates to containers, we've had several announcements and, and, and a lot of success in this space. Uh, I, I can go through some of these things with cloud run, which is our serverless container offering. We've seen, uh, four X growth in adoption and, uh, consumption of that service last year in 2021. And that is continuing, uh, so it's very, very healthy and it is very much the reason customers are adopting. It is because they don't need to learn a lot of the underlying infrastructure. They don't need to manage any of the underlying infrastructure. >>There isn't necessarily a cluster to manage all of that is taken care of, uh, for them. And they can focus on their application. They can actually use, uh, make use of the benefits of containers, such as, uh, you know, scalability, um, such as, um, application awareness, uh, and such as a lot of the integrated tool chain for, uh, delivery for application delivery, right from your source repository into production, and then being able to bring out new versions of your application, test them, and then roll over. So this is kind of the new, uh, uh, generation I think is very much tied to the pandemic and what's happening in the world post pandemic, where developers are extremely important, developer productivity and, and fact developer work, life balance is extremely >>Important. Yeah. And I, and I think also one of the things that we're seeing to piggyback on that last comment, as well as your other points is developers have always been pulled to the front lines even 10 years ago. You saw the trend towards getting more closer to the customer now with cloud and edge and with open source being the innovation equation where entrepreneurs are starting projects, companies are starting projects, then they gotta get commercialized. So supply chain is a big discussion. We're hearing at Docker con we're hearing about shifting left of security data as code. You start to see the developer on the front lines in all aspects of this, and they want, they want security, they want efficiency, they want things in the pipeline. They don't wanna have to shift left, then come back again. So again, they starting to see this kind of productivity drive the business behavior of the companies cuz that's their, the value partners. That's the application side of cloud native. What's your thoughts for the developers who are doing that? What's in it for them with Google cloud? Why, why are you important to them? >>Yeah, and I think, uh, John, this is where, uh, developers, uh, tend to prefer Google cloud. And there's a couple of reasons for that. One is, you know, we are very much, uh, centered around developers. Um, you know, my job is, uh, you know, Google cloud developer platform. And, uh, our goal is to provide ease of use the easiest cloud for developers. Something that is, um, you know, really allows them to get their work done quickly. Developers want to be exposed to the best technology. They want to be able to be exposed to it in a way that that integrates into their workflow that integrates into the tools that they're used to, um, and allows them to get their job done quickly. And so a lot of what we're doing in, in the developer space is providing an integrated stack. Um, you know, whether you're building a web application or you're building a mobile application, or you're trying to do data analytics, uh, Google cloud should be a place that you come to. >>That's easy for you to use, to get the job done. Um, and, and, and the security aspect is not something that developers like to deal with. They want that to be taken care of for them, um, troubleshooting as well, you know, troubleshooting and, and upgrading. And all of that is something that they wanna be taken care of. And so that is something that we're baking into the platform. And you'll see that in a lot of our tooling, um, you know, the build process, uh, we're providing salsa compliance, um, and, and build Providence for the security teams to be able to audit. But it's not something that the, that the developer needs to take care of. It's something that is just part of the, the build process built into, uh, say, uh, cloud run or GK built into our compute options for making >>It for them, making it easy, simple, and reduce the steps it takes to get the job done. So great stuff par, great to see you in the last 30 seconds, we have left. Just give a quick commercial for what the key projects are in open source. You're proud of that people should pay attention to, we got CubeCon coming up, uh, in, uh, Europe and north America. What are some of the successes that you like to point out? >>Well, I really encourage, uh, developers to go and take a look, a new look at, go go 1.8, add support for generics. It should open up a brand new set of applications. So I definitely encourage folks to, to take a look at that, um, of, of course ISEO and service mesh. As, as your container footprint grows, you have many microservices looking at service mesh, uh, extremely important, and it also allows you to get to that SRE type of, um, uh, DevOps model where, you know, you're securing your services. You're also, uh, being able to monitor and control, uh, service usage. And then the last one is of course Tecton and this is where secure software supply chain comes up. Part I'll >>Mention that. I wish I had 20 minutes. Love chatting with you. We'll catch up with you later on the cube we're here at DockerCon. Thanks for your time. Back to the DockerCon main stages of the cube. I'm John farrier, back to the main stage for more coverage.

(upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back to theCUBE's cover of DockerCon Mainstage, I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here with Shubha Rao, Senior Manager, Product Manager at AWS, in the container services. Shubha, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Hi, thank you very much for having me, excited to be here. >> So obviously, we're doing a lot of coverage with AWS recently, on containers, cloud native, microservices and we see you guys always at the events. But tell me about what your role is in the organization? >> Yeah, so I lead the product management and developer advocacy team, in the AWS Container Services group, where we focus on elastic containers. And what I mean by elastic containers, is that, all the AWS opinionated, out of the box solutions that we have for you, like, you know, ECS and App Runner and Elastic BeanStalk. So where we bring in our services in a way that integrates with the AWS ecosystem. And, you know, my team manages the product management and speaking to customers and developers like you all, to understand how we can improve our services for you to use it more seamlessly. >> So, I mean, I know AWS has a lot of services tha t have containers involved with them and it's a lot of integration within the cloud. Amazon's as cloud native as you're going to get at AWS. If I was a new customer, where do I start with containers if you had to give me advice? And then, where I have a nice roadmap to grow within AWS. >> Yeah, no, that's a great question a lot of customers ask us this. We recommend that the customers choose whatever is the best fit for their application needs and for their operational flexibilities. So, if you have an application which you can use, pretty abstract and like end to end managed by AWS service, we recommend that you start at the highest level of abstraction that's okay to use for your application. And that means something like App Runner, where you can bring in a web application and run it like end to end. And if there are things that you want to control and tweak, then you know, we have services like ECS, where you get control and you get flexibility to tweak it to your needs. Be it needs of like, integrations or running your own agents and running your own partner solutions or even customizing how it scales and all the, you know, characteristics related to it. And of course we have, if there are a lot of our customers also run kubernetes, so that is a requirement for you, if your apps are already packaged to run, you know, easily with the kubernetes ecosystem, then we have, yes, for you. So, like application needs, the operational, how much of the operations do you want us to handle? Or how much of it do you want to actually have control over. And with all that, like the highest level of abstraction so that we can do the work on your behalf, which is the goal of AWS. >> Yeah, well, we always hear that all that heavy lifting, undifferentiated heavy lifting, you guys handle all that. Since you're in product management, I have to ask the question 'cause you guys have a little bit longer view, as you have think about what's on the roadmap. What type of customer trends are you seeing in container services? >> We see a lot of trends about customers who want to have the plugability for their, you know, services of choice. And our EKS offerings actually help in that. And we see customers who want an opinionated, you know, give me an out of the box solution, rather than building blocks. And ECS brings you that experience. The new strengths that we are seeing is that a lot of our customer workloads are also on their data centers and in their on-prem like environments. Be it branch offices or data centers or like, you know, other areas. And so we've recently launched the, anywhere offerings for you. So, ECS anywhere, brings you an experience for letting your workloads run and management that you control, where we manage the scaling and orchestration and the whole like, you know, monitoring and troubleshooting aspects of it. Which is the new trend, which seems to be something that our customers use as a way to migrate their applications to the cloud in the long term or just to get, you know, the same experience and the same, like, constructs that they're familiar with, come onto their data centers and their environments. >> You know, Shubha, we hear a lot about containers. It's becoming standard in the enterprise now, mainstream. But customers, when we talk to them, they kind of have this evolution, they start with containers and they realize how great it is and they become container full, right. And then you start to see kind of, them trying to evolve to the next level. And then you start to see EKS come into the equation. We see that in cloud native. Is EKS a container? Or is it a service? How does that work with everything? >> So EKS is a Amazon managed service, container service, where we do the operational set up, you know, upgrades and other things for the customer on their behalf. So basically, you get the same communities APIs that you get to use for your application but we handle a little bit of the integrations and the operations selected to keeping it up and running with high availability. in a way that actually meets your needs for the applications. >> And more and more people are dipping their toe in the water, as we say, with containers. What are some of the things you've seen customers do when they jump in and start implementing that kind of phase one containers? Also, there's a lot of head room beyond that, as you mentioned. What's the first couple steps that they take? They jump in,, is it a learning process? Is it serverless? Where is the connection points all come together? >> Great, so, I want to say that, no one solution that we have, fits all needs. Like, it's not the best case, best thing for all your use cases, and not for all of your applications. So, how it all comes together is that, AWS gives you a ecosystem of tools and capabilities. Some customers want to really build the, you know, castle themselves with each of the Lego block and some customers want it to be a ready made thing. And I want, you know, one of the things that I speak to customers about is, is to rethink which of the knobs and controls do they really need to have, you know because none of the services we have is a one way door. Like, there is always flexibility and, you know ability to move from one service to the other. So, my recommendation is to always like, start with things where Amazon handles many of the heavy lifting, you know, operations for you. And that means starting with something like, serverless offerings, where, like, for example, with Lambda and Forget, we manage the host, we manage the patching, we manage the monitoring. And that would be a great place for you to use ECS offering and, you know, basically get an end to end experience in a couple of days. And over time, if you have more needs, if you have more control, you know, if you want to bring in your own agents and whatever else you have, the option to use your own EC2 Instances or to take it to other, like, you know, parts of the AWS ecosystem, where you want to, you know, tweak it to your needs. >> Well, we're seeing a lot of great traction here at DockerCon. And all the momentum around containers. And then you're starting to get into trust and security supply chain, as open source becomes more exponentially in growth, it's growing like crazy, which is a great thing. So what can we expect to see from your team in the coming months, as this rolls forward? It's not going away anytime soon. It's going to be integrated and keep on scaling. What do we expect from the team in the next month or so? Couple of months. >> Security and, you know, is our number one job. So you will continue to see more and more features, capabilities and integrations, to ensure that your workloads are secure. Availability and scaling are the things that we do, you know, as keep the lights on. So, you should expect to see all of our services growing to make it like, more user friendly, easier, you know, simpler ways to get the whole availability and scaling to your needs, better. And then like, you know, very specifically, I want to touch on a few services. So App Runner, today we have support for public facing web services. You can expect that the number of use cases that you can meet with app runner is going to increase over time. You want to invest into making it AWS end to end workflow experience for our customers because, that's the easiest journey to the cloud. And we don't want you to actually wait for months and years to actually leverage the benefits of what AWS provides. ECS, we've already launched our, like, you know, Forget and Anywhere, to bring you more flexibility in terms of easier networking capabilities, more granular controls in deployment and more controls to actually help you plug in your preferred, you know, solution ties. And in EKS, we are going to continue to keep the communities, you know, versions and, you know, bring simpler experiences for you. >> A lot of nice growth there, containers, EKS, a lot more goodness in the cloud, obviously. We have 30 seconds left. Tell us what you're most excited about personally. And what should the developers pay attention to in this conference around containers and AWS? >> I would say that AWS has a lot of offerings but, you know, speak to us, like, come to us with your questions or, you know, anything that you have, like in terms of feature requests. We are very, very eager and happy to speak to you all. You know, you can engage with us on the container store map, which is on GitHub. Or you can find, you know, many of us in events like this, AWS Summits and, you know, DockerCon and many of the other meetups. Or find us on LinkedIn, we're always happy to chat. >> Yeah, always open, open source. Open source meets cloud scale, meets commercialization. All happening, all great stuff. Shubha, thank you for coming on theCUBE. Thanks for sharing. We'll send it back now to the DockerCon Mainstage. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat bright music) >> Hello, welcome back to theCUBE's main stage coverage of DockerCon 2022. I'm John for your host of theCUBE. We have Knox Anderson, vice president of Product Management, Sysdig. Knox, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. Glad to be back. >> So IAC containers is going crazy madness in terms of adoption, standard, even mainstream enterprise, IT and cloud are all containerized. It's only getting better, and it increases the complications when you start thinking about scale and supportability. This is a huge discussion, and it ranges from how do you support, how do you run operations, how do you secure in the supply chain. All this is happening, and with the growth of cloud and server (indistinct) seeing Kubernetes at the center of everything. So I got to ask you, how has Kubernetes changed how you secure cloud infrastructure? >> Yeah, so Kubernetes is really the modern operating system for the cloud. And with that, you get a lot of facilities. So you get things like Kubernetes' network policies, you can use things like admission controllers. And with that, you're securing multiple layers, whether it's the control plane, individual workloads. And so there's a nice mixture of built-in tools, and part of the Kubernetes platform that then you can leverage to do prevention, auditing, and things like that. But it really requires an entire rethink of your stack and the tools you bring in alongside your people and processes. And so it's an exciting time because it gives you an opportunity to be more secure, but really have to rethink your approach there. >> And I want to get into the whole observability trend here 'cause you start thinking about the mobility, what containers enables. And getting all the data is everything. And then also that feeds into kind of having a good sense of what is going on. And when you hear about shift left and data as code, you know, developers don't want to get stopped coding, right? And then have to come back and go dig into things that they thought they had taken care of. So you kind of got this kind of flywheel going in the wrong direction. So that's causing teams to be disrupted. So how do teams keep up with the changes to the containerized applications or what to prioritize around that? Because if I shift left, am I done or what? And these are the things that come up all the time. >> Yeah. You have to shift left but also watch the right. Like, shifting left is a little bit harder from a people and process perspective. Like you put a tool in place, then it's a gating factor for getting in. And so that runtime context on the right is equally as important. And it's often easier to roll out a runtime tool just because you're not going in and introducing new processes. And that runtime visibility can also make shift left much better. If you're scanning a container image, you might get a thousand different vulnerabilities that you need to address, but only three of those are in packages that are actually executed at runtime. And so we recently released a feature called risk spotlight which does that exact feedback loop. And that's something that's important whether you're addressing vulnerabilities, misconfigurations, or responding to event. What's on the right, what's on the left, and then tie those together. >> Yeah, it's like left, right, it's like driving training here in the United States. You got a stop sign, you want to be moving, always be moving. I got to ask you what are some of the side effects of infrastructure automation and the result in code artifacts? >> Yeah, it's really, like, Kubernetes is nice because it's a declarative system, but it doesn't always work out that way. Like, someone might have a Helm chart and then someone else changes it in production. So understanding what is drift is really important in these environments. And then it also has enabled real remediation workflows. I think previously, you might patch something, a week later there's a new deploy, that patch gets written over. And so because Kubernetes and the rise of IAC, it's now easier to see a misconfiguration in production, open a poll request, and then fix that at source, which provides that full kind of visibility across those different environments. And it allows you to actually fix issues versus constantly being in that kind of whack-a-mole of patching things and moving on. >> Yeah, I mean this is all about cloud native development, and you look at, you know, some of the things going on, you're starting to see best practices developed. What do you guys see as a best practice for getting started with designing and securing cloud native applications? What are some of the tools that people should look at for beginners and for the entry-level position? And then as they get traction, what does that turn into? >> Yeah, so the pattern we've often seen is like someone gets started on the open source side, whether you're using Open Policy Agent or Falco, which Laurice who've you met with before created. And so really when you're starting, choose kind of the open source option. Learn from that. And then often what we've seen with customers is at scale, there's some companies like if you're in Uber, or Snapchat, and Apple, you can maybe build something around open source, but a lot of other people start to really consolidate platforms that are built on top of those open source technologies, and trying to get that really single view into what's happening in their environment, what are those events. And the thing that I would say, process wise, is most important is build that container center of excellence, that cloud center of excellence, whatever you call it, that brings together people from your ops team, your infrastructure team, your dev team, your security team. Everyone's got to have a seat at the table to have containers be successful. It's a big shift, and if you do it right, it really takes off, but each team really needs to be included there. >> Yeah, there's a lot of operational discussions going on around the devs, and the devs are being pulled to the front lines. We've been saying this for a decade, but now when you got edge computing, you got cloud native operations, on-premises, you start to see that they're getting pulled even further to the frontline. So, you know, what are you guys up to Sysdig? You know, they got a lot of developers here at DockerCon, what's in it for them? Why Sysdig, why should they care? What would you say to the old developers that are watching? What's in it for them? >> Yeah, we really make it easier for you to prioritize what to fix and what to address in your environment. I know I've built something before and like, my test suite or my scanner just lights up like a Christmas tree, and you just want to move to another task because it's just too much to deal with at that time. And so we really help you focus on what matters and get the most bang for your buck. Everyone has way too much time or too many things going on and not enough time. And so being able to understand effective risk, your different vulnerabilities, what to fix, is really key to delivering secure software. >> I mean, it's like a doctor needs to know what to work on with the patient, if you will, when to, and what's important, and then the dependencies, and you got, a system's mindset, you got to know what the consequences. So it sounds easy, just knock down a list of things, but isn't that easy. You got to want to hit things that you know that will be, to have an impact right away. That seems to be the big aha moment here. >> Yeah, definitely. >> So we're going to be at KubeCon in Europe, you guys going to have booth there, what's the quick plug for the company? Give a shout out to what's happening at Sysdig and cloud native world. >> Yeah, really excited to be in Valencia. We have a ton of people at, sorry, at DockerCon with, giving a couple different talks here. So the first is Master Your Container Security Model and then Software Supply Chain Security and Standards. On the supply chain one, we're getting deep into SBOMs. So if that's a topic that's important to you, please join that one. >> Awesome, and then that's a big topic supply chain. We've got a minute and a half left. What's the most important thing people should pay attention to as open source continues to grow in prominence, not just from a code standpoint, but as a social environment, as people's doing ventures and venture capitalists are mining the area, what should they pay attention to as supply chain becomes important, what's the big thing? >> There's a lot of companies I think going around the SBOM space, and kind of trying to certify like where did this come from, and have that providence across the entire supply chain. We, under the hood, use those SBOMs to understand kind of what have you built, what packages are used, and then tie that with that runtime data. So a lot of the things that we talked around before with RiskSpotlight is based on that deep SBOM knowledge. And that's something that, I think the standards are still getting kind of worked out where there's CycloneDX, SBX. And so people really are saying, "Hey, I need to generate SBOMs," and we're regenerating them, but there's going to be more and more applications on "Okay what do you do with that? How does it integrate with other tools?" So it's kind of I think in the little bit of the early data lake phases where it's like, "I've taken all my data, I put it here. Now I need to do more with it." And so that's where I think we'll start to see some pretty exciting things over the next year or two. >> It's super exciting. On one hand you got the attackers, and that's a zero trust environment, and you get the builders, the developers where trust is everything. You got to know what it's in the code. It's really interesting time and super important to scale. So Knox, thanks for for coming on theCUBE and sharing the Sysdig update. Appreciate it, thanks for coming on. Now back to you at the DockerCon main stage, this is theCUBE. I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat bright music)

>> The Cube presents Dell Technologies World brought to you by Dell. >> Good evening, welcome back to the Cube's coverage of Dell Technologies World, live from the show floor in Las Vegas. Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante. We've been here two and a half days. We've unpacked a lot of announcements in the last couple days, and we're going to be doing a little bit more of that for our final segment. We've got a couple of guests joining us. Itzik Reich, the VP of the Technologist ISG at Dell and Magi Kapoor Director of Storage Product Management at Dell. Guys, welcome. >> Thank you for having us. >> So great to be back in person. I'm sure great for all of you to see customers and partners and your team that you probably haven't seen in quite a while. But Itzik we want to, we want to start with you VP of the Technologists. That sounds like a, like you need to wear a cape or something. >> Right? Yeah. I wish I do sometimes >> Talk about that role and what you do. >> Right, so our role, we have an outbound part and an inbound part. From an outbound perspective, our role is to ensure that our customers are knowing where we going from a technology perspective. And we do it via conferences or customer calls or via blogs, and think of that nature. But as important, we also have an inbound role to ensure that our employees are knowing where we're going. You can imagine they're a very large company. Not every engineer or any other role knows exactly what we are doing in that space, especially around innovation. So we also ensure that they understand it internally about where we going into that nature. And as a side role, I also have a side job which is to be responsible for our container strategy which has started couple of years ago which I'm sure we're going to talk about today. >> Yeah, that's-- >> Got a side gig. My goodness. >> That's right. >> Maggie, lots of announcements in the last couple of days. Great attendance here. Seven to 8,000 people. Dell's coming off its best year ever, north of 100 billion in revenue and FY 22, 17% year on year growth. What are some of the things that excite you about the strategic direction that Dell is going in with its partners, with the hyperscalers storage bringing it to the hyperscalers? >> Yeah. No lots of great announcements. It's been an exciting week. Like you said, it's been great to be back in person, have these face to face meetings and, you know, see the customers, have presentations in person. Like I feel like we haven't done that in forever. So it's felt really, really great. And announcements, it's been incredible. Like the two keynotes that we had on Monday and Tuesday were both incredible. And so I'd like to talk about a couple of key ones, you know, so just to let you know, I'm a director of product management and I'm responsible for a bunch of pan-ISG initiatives, DevOps and our container strategy being one of those items. And so, you know, we're at this cusp where there are, you know, customers that are on this journey of, you know, developers coming up to speed with multicloud being one of the key areas. We've heard that a lot this week, right? And what I loved about Chuck's keynote when he talked about, you know, a multicloud by default and how we're working to change that to be multicloud for design by design, right? And so what we mean by that is, and DevOps plays a very key role there, right? In the last few years developers have had this opportunity to pick different multi from different multi clouds, right? And develop the applications wherever they find the right tool sets. But that's creating havoc with IT operations because IT has worked in it in different ways, right? So what we're trying to do with DevOps is really bridge the gap between the developers and the IT ops and make it more frictionless. And project Alpine is one of the key ones to make that, you know, to bring that bridge together. Really bring that operational consistency across on-prem and the public clouds and colo facilities and Edge and everything that we've talked about. So project Alpine is really key to the success of DevOps that we're driving across. And then the other thing that I would like to call out in terms of announce and Chuck brought that up on Monday was our focus on developers. And we have a portal called developer.dell.com which we announced and launched in January of this year. Right? It's think of that as our one stop shop for all of our APIs. You heard from Caitlin, you heard from a lot of our leaders that we have been on this journey of having a API first approach to everything we're doing be it products, be it features, functionality. And so the developer portal is the place where we're putting all of our ISG APIs and not just having a one stop shop but standardizing on APIs, which is really key. >> We just spoke to Shannon Champion and Gemma from Salesforce. And we talked about how we entered last decade for visioning lungs. And now we're programming infrastructure. So really interested in your container strategy, your DevOps strategy. How did it start? How was it evolving? Where are you in the spectrum? You know, where are customers in that maturity? Let's dig in >> 2015, I believe was the year when DockerCon their CTO went on stage and they explained their customer that they shouldn't care about storage. They should design their applications running in containers in the 12 factor way, designed to fail, storage doesn't matter. And I remember scratching my head because I was hearing this one before. If there's one thing that I've learned both as a customer and later on as an employee of a storage company at the time, is that customers care about data and they care a lot about their data. Especially if it's not available. It's a bad day for the customer and possibly a very bad day for me as well. And so we actually, at the time, work with a startup called Cluster HQ to offer persistent volumes for Kubernetes. That startup eventually went down of business. But Google took over the some part of the intellectual property and came with an API called CSI. Which does not stand for your famous TV show. It's actually an acronym for container storage interface. And the CSI role in life is to be able to provide persistent volume from a storage array to Kubernetes. So we start working with Google, just like many other vendors in order to ensure that our stands outs are part of the CSI stand out. And we start to providing CSI interfaces for our storage arrays. And that's how all of these things started. We started to get more and more customers telling us I'm going all in with Kubernetes and I need you to support me in that journey. But what we've also learned is that Kubernetes similarly in a way to the open stock days is very fragmented. There are many distributions that are running on the top of Kubernetes. So seed side itself is not just the end of it. Many customer wants day to be working with VMware (indistinct) with zoo or with red OpenShift or with Rancher. So we need to do different adjustments for each one of these distributions in order to ensure that we are meeting the customer where they are today but also in the future as well. >> Yeah, and Kubernetes back in 2015 was, you know, pretty immature. We were focused on simplicity. You had Mesos doing, you know, more sophisticated things, you know, cluster HQ, obvious. And now you see Kubernetes moving into that realm tackling all those, a lot of those problems. So where does storage fit into that resilient resiliency equation? >> Yeah, so, you know, I think storages are key. What we're hearing a lot from customers is they have infrastructure in place already and they want to take advantage of cloud native and modernizing their applications whether they're the legacy applications or as they're building new applications. So how do really take advantage of the infrastructure that they have invested in? And they love, and they need. I mean, the reason why our customers love our products is because of the enterprise and the data management capabilities that we provide, right? Be it PowerMax for our gold standards on SRDF replication, for instance, they want to make sure that they leverage all of that as they are containerizing their applications. So the piece that Itzik talked about with the CSI plugins, that gives customers the opportunity to take advantage of the infrastructure that's already in place, take advantage of all the enterprise capabilities that it provides but yet take advantage of cloudifying, if I can say, the applications that they're doing, right? And then on top of that we also have what we call our CSM modules which is the container storage modules which is so, you know, going back again, we, CSI industry stack spec standards, you know, customers started to use it. And what we heard from our customers was, this is great but it has very minimum capabilities, right? Very basic ones. And we love your enterprise products. We want enterprise capabilities with it. So we've been working with CNCF very closely on, you know, working on contributions. But what we have realized is that they're, the community is still far from delivering some of these enterprise capabilities. So we came up with container storage modules which is an extension of CSI modules but to add those enterprise capabilities, you know, be it observability, be it replication, authorization, resiliency. These are the things that customers wanted to use enterprise storage when it comes to containers. And that's what we've been delivering on with our container storage modules. I do want to call out that all of our CSM modules just like CSI are all open source. That's what developers want. They don't want it closed source. And so we're listening to them and we're creating all of this in open source waiting, you know, and wanting them to contribute to the court. So it's not just us doing, you know and writing what we want but we also want the community to contribute. >> You're committing resources there, publishing them, it's all open source? >> Exactly. >> That's the contribution. >> And working with CNCF to see if they can be standardized across the board not just for Dell customers. >> Is that a project going, is that your ideal? It that becomes a project within CNCF or is it? >> That's our goal. Yes. We're definitely working and influencing. We'll see how it goes. >> More committers. Just keep throwing committers at it. >> Support these day is done via slack channel. So if we're changing the way that we run interacting with our customers that are now the developers themselves via slack channel. You don't need to call 100, 800 Dell to get a support case. >> So I'm interested in, you mentioned project Alpine, and it was very interesting to me to see that. You know, you guys talk about multicloud. I try to take it to another level. I call it super cloud and that's this abstraction layer. You know, some people laugh at that, but it has meaning. Multi-cloud is going to multivendor by default. And my premise is data ultimately is going to stay where it belongs in place. And then this mesh evolves, not my word, Jamoc Degani kind of invented. And there needs to be standards to be able to share data and govern that data. And it's wide open now. There are no standards there. And I think open sources has an opportunity as opposed to a defacto standard that would emerge. It seems to be real white space there. I think a company like Dell could provide that self-service infrastructure to those data points on the mesh and standards or software that governs that in a computational way. Is that something that's, you know, that super cloud idea is a reality from a technologist perspective? >> I think it is. So for example, Katie Gordon, which I believe you interviewed earlier this week, was demonstrating the Kubernetes data mobility aspect, which is another project. That's exactly power part of the its rational, the rationale of customers being able to move some of their Kubernetes workloads to the cloud and back and between different clouds. Why we doing it? Because customers wants to have the ability to move between different cloud providers using a common API that will be able to orchestrate all of those things with a self-service that may be offered via the apex console itself. So it's all around enabling developers and meeting them where they are today and also meeting them in tomorrow's world where they actually may have changed their mind to do those things. So, yes, we are working on all of those different aspects. >> Dell meeting the developers where they are. Guys thank you so much for joining David and me and unpacking that. We appreciate your insights and your time. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Speaking of unpacking, Lisa. We're unpacking Dell tech world. >> They're packing up around us. Exactly. We better go. We want to thank you for watching The Cube's two and a half days of live coverage of Dell Technologies world. Dave it's been great to co-host with you, be back in person. >> Thank you Lisa. It was really a pleasure. >> Of course. My pleasure too. >> Let's do more of this. >> Let's do it! >> All right. >> We want to thank you again for watching. You can catch all of this on replay on thecube.net. We look forward to seeing you next time. (soft music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vollante. >> The rise of Kubernetes came about through a combination of forces that were, in hindsight, quite a long shot. Amazon's dominance created momentum for Cloud native application development, and the need for newer and simpler experiences, beyond just easily spinning up computer as a service. This wave crashed into innovations from a startup named Docker, and a reluctant competitor in Google, that needed a way to change the game on Amazon and the Cloud. Now, add in the effort of Red Hat, which needed a new path beyond Enterprise Linux, and oh, by the way, it was just about to commit to a path of a Kubernetes alternative for OpenShift and figure out a governance structure to hurt all the cats and the ecosystem and you get the remarkable ascendancy of Kubernetes. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we tapped the back stories of a new documentary that explains the improbable events that led to the creation of Kubernetes. We'll share some new survey data from ETR and commentary from the many early the innovators who came on theCUBE during the exciting period since the founding of Docker in 2013, which marked a new era in computing, because we're talking about Kubernetes and developers today, the hoodie is on. And there's a new two part documentary that I just referenced, it's out and it was produced by Honeypot on Kubernetes, part one and part two, tells a story of how Kubernetes came to prominence and many of the players that made it happen. Now, a lot of these players, including Tim Hawkin Kelsey Hightower, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, Brian Grant Solomon Hykes, Jerry Chen and others came on theCUBE during formative years of containers going mainstream and the rise of Kubernetes. John Furrier and Stu Miniman were at the many shows we covered back then and they unpacked what was happening at the time. We'll share the commentary from the guests that they interviewed and try to add some context. Now let's start with the concept of developer defined structure, DDI. Jerry Chen was at VMware and he could see the trends that were evolving. He left VMware to become a venture capitalist at Greylock. Docker was his first investment. And he saw the future this way. >> What happens is when you define infrastructure software you can program it. You make it portable. And that the beauty of this cloud wave what I call DDI's. Now, to your point is every piece of infrastructure from storage, networking, to compute has an API, right? And, and AWS there was an early trend where S3, EBS, EC2 had API. >> As building blocks too. >> As building blocks, exactly. >> Not monolithic. >> Monolithic building blocks every little building bone block has it own API and just like Docker really is the API for this unit of the cloud enables developers to define how they want to build their applications, how to network them know as Wills talked about, and how you want to secure them and how you want to store them. And so the beauty of this generation is now developers are determining how apps are built, not just at the, you know, end user, you know, iPhone app layer the data layer, the storage layer, the networking layer. So every single level is being disrupted by this concept of a DDI and where, how you build use and actually purchase IT has changed. And you're seeing the incumbent vendors like Oracle, VMware Microsoft try to react but you're seeing a whole new generation startup. >> Now what Jerry was explaining is that this new abstraction layer that was being built here's some ETR data that quantifies that and shows where we are today. The chart shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share which represents the pervasiveness in the survey set. So as Jerry and the innovators who created Docker saw the cloud was becoming prominent and you can see it still has spending velocity that's elevated above that 40% red line which is kind of a magic mark of momentum. And of course, it's very prominent on the X axis as well. And you see the low level infrastructure virtualization and that even floats above servers and storage and networking right. Back in 2013 the conversation with VMware. And by the way, I remember having this conversation deeply at the time with Chad Sakac was we're going to make this low level infrastructure invisible, and we intend to make virtualization invisible, IE simplified. And so, you see above the two arrows there related to containers, container orchestration and container platforms, which are abstraction layers and services above the underlying VMs and hardware. And you can see the momentum that they have right there with the cloud and AI and RPA. So you had these forces that Jerry described that were taking shape, and this picture kind of summarizes how they came together to form Kubernetes. And the upper left, Of course you see AWS and we inserted a picture from a post we did, right after the first reinvent in 2012, it was obvious to us at the time that the cloud gorilla was AWS and had all this momentum. Now, Solomon Hykes, the founder of Docker, you see there in the upper right. He saw the need to simplify the packaging of applications for cloud developers. Here's how he described it. Back in 2014 in theCUBE with John Furrier >> Container is a unit of deployment, right? It's the format in which you package your application all the files, all the executables libraries all the dependencies in one thing that you can move to any server and deploy in a repeatable way. So it's similar to how you would run an iOS app on an iPhone, for example. >> A Docker at the time was a 30% company and it just changed its name from .cloud. And back to the diagram you have Google with a red question mark. So why would you need more than what Docker had created. Craig McLuckie, who was a product manager at Google back then explains the need for yet another abstraction. >> We created the strong separation between infrastructure operations and application operations. And so, Docker has created a portable framework to take it, basically a binary and run it anywhere which is an amazing capability, but that's not enough. You also need to be able to manage that with a framework that can run anywhere. And so, the union of Docker and Kubernetes provides this framework where you're completely abstracted from the underlying infrastructure. You could use VMware, you could use Red Hat open stack deployment. You could run on another major cloud provider like rec. >> Now Google had this huge cloud infrastructure but no commercial cloud business compete with AWS. At least not one that was taken seriously at the time. So it needed a way to change the game. And it had this thing called Google Borg, which is a container management system and scheduler and Google looked at what was happening with virtualization and said, you know, we obviously could do better Joe Beda, who was with Google at the time explains their mindset going back to the beginning. >> Craig and I started up Google compute engine VM as a service. And the odd thing to recognize is that, nobody who had been in Google for a long time thought that there was anything to this VM stuff, right? Cause Google had been on containers for so long. That was their mindset board was the way that stuff was actually deployed. So, you know, my boss at the time, who's now at Cloudera booted up a VM for the first time, and anybody in the outside world be like, Hey, that's really cool. And his response was like, well now what? Right. You're sitting at a prompt. Like that's not super interesting. How do I run my app? Right. Which is, that's what everybody's been struggling with, with cloud is not how do I get a VM up? How do I actually run my code? >> Okay. So Google never really did virtualization. They were looking at the market and said, okay what can we do to make Google relevant in cloud. Here's Eric Brewer from Google. Talking on theCUBE about Google's thought process at the time. >> One interest things about Google is it essentially makes no use of virtual machines internally. And that's because Google started in 1998 which is the same year that VMware started was kind of brought the modern virtual machine to bear. And so Google infrastructure tends to be built really on kind of classic Unix processes and communication. And so scaling that up, you get a system that works a lot with just processes and containers. So kind of when I saw containers come along with Docker, we said, well, that's a good model for us. And we can take what we know internally which was called Borg a big scheduler. And we can turn that into Kubernetes and we'll open source it. And suddenly we have kind of a cloud version of Google that works the way we would like it to work. >> Now, Eric Brewer gave us the bumper sticker version of the story there. What he reveals in the documentary that I referenced earlier is that initially Google was like, why would we open source our secret sauce to help competitors? So folks like Tim Hockin and Brian Grant who were on the original Kubernetes team, went to management and pressed hard to convince them to bless open sourcing Kubernetes. Here's Hockin's explanation. >> When Docker landed, we saw the community building and building and building. I mean, that was a snowball of its own, right? And as it caught on we realized we know what this is going to we know once you embrace the Docker mindset that you very quickly need something to manage all of your Docker nodes, once you get beyond two or three of them, and we know how to build that, right? We got a ton of experience here. Like we went to our leadership and said, you know, please this is going to happen with us or without us. And I think it, the world would be better if we helped. >> So the open source strategy became more compelling as they studied the problem because it gave Google a way to neutralize AWS's advantage because with containers you could develop on AWS for example, and then run the application anywhere like Google's cloud. So it not only gave developers a path off of AWS. If Google could develop a strong service on GCP they could monetize that play. Now, focus your attention back to the diagram which shows this smiling, Alex Polvi from Core OS which was acquired by Red Hat in 2018. And he saw the need to bring Linux into the cloud. I mean, after all Linux was powering the internet it was the OS for enterprise apps. And he saw the need to extend its path into the cloud. Now here's how he described it at an OpenStack event in 2015. >> Similar to what happened with Linux. Like yes, there is still need for Linux and Windows and other OSs out there. But by and large on production, web infrastructure it's all Linux now. And you were able to get onto one stack. And how were you able to do that? It was, it was by having a truly open consistent API and a commitment into not breaking APIs and, so on. That allowed Linux to really become ubiquitous in the data center. Yes, there are other OSs, but Linux buy in large for production infrastructure, what is being used. And I think you'll see a similar phenomenon happen for this next level up cause we're treating the whole data center as a computer instead of trading one in visual instance is just the computer. And that's the stuff that Kubernetes to me and someone is doing. And I think there will be one that shakes out over time and we believe that'll be Kubernetes. >> So Alex saw the need for a dominant container orchestration platform. And you heard him, they made the right bet. It would be Kubernetes. Now Red Hat, Red Hat is been around since 1993. So it has a lot of on-prem. So it needed a future path to the cloud. So they rang up Google and said, hey. What do you guys have going on in this space? So Google, was kind of non-committal, but it did expose that they were thinking about doing something that was you know, pre Kubernetes. It was before it was called Kubernetes. But hey, we have this thing and we're thinking about open sourcing it, but Google's internal debates, and you know, some of the arm twisting from the engine engineers, it was taking too long. So Red Hat said, well, screw it. We got to move forward with OpenShift. So we'll do what Apple and Airbnb and Heroku are doing and we'll build on an alternative. And so they were ready to go with Mesos which was very much more sophisticated than Kubernetes at the time and much more mature, but then Google the last minute said, hey, let's do this. So Clayton Coleman with Red Hat, he was an architect. And he leaned in right away. He was one of the first outside committers outside of Google. But you still led these competing forces in the market. And internally there were debates. Do we go with simplicity or do we go with system scale? And Hen Goldberg from Google explains why they focus first on simplicity in getting that right. >> We had to defend of why we are only supporting 100 nodes in the first release of Kubernetes. And they explained that they know how to build for scale. They've done that. They know how to do it, but realistically most of users don't need large clusters. So why create this complexity? >> So Goldberg explains that rather than competing right away with say Mesos or Docker swarm, which were far more baked they made the bet to keep it simple and go for adoption and ubiquity, which obviously turned out to be the right choice. But the last piece of the puzzle was governance. Now Google promised to open source Kubernetes but when it started to open up to contributors outside of Google, the code was still controlled by Google and developers had to sign Google paper that said Google could still do whatever it wanted. It could sub license, et cetera. So Google had to pass the Baton to an independent entity and that's how CNCF was started. Kubernetes was its first project. And let's listen to Chris Aniszczyk of the CNCF explain >> CNCF is all about providing a neutral home for cloud native technology. And, you know, it's been about almost two years since our first board meeting. And the idea was, you know there's a certain set of technology out there, you know that are essentially microservice based that like live in containers that are essentially orchestrated by some process, right? That's essentially what we mean when we say cloud native right. And CNCF was seated with Kubernetes as its first project. And you know, as, as we've seen over the last couple years Kubernetes has grown, you know, quite well they have a large community a diverse con you know, contributor base and have done, you know, kind of extremely well. They're one of actually the fastest, you know highest velocity, open source projects out there, maybe. >> Okay. So this is how we got to where we are today. This ETR data shows container orchestration offerings. It's the same X Y graph that we showed earlier. And you can see where Kubernetes lands not we're standing that Kubernetes not a company but respondents, you know, they doing Kubernetes. They maybe don't know, you know, whose platform and it's hard with the ETR taxon economy as a fuzzy and survey data because Kubernetes is increasingly becoming embedded into cloud platforms. And IT pros, they may not even know which one specifically. And so the reason we've linked these two platforms Kubernetes and Red Hat OpenShift is because OpenShift right now is a dominant revenue player in the space and is increasingly popular PaaS layer. Yeah. You could download Kubernetes and do what you want with it. But if you're really building enterprise apps you're going to need support. And that's where OpenShift comes in. And there's not much data on this but we did find this chart from AMDA which show was the container software market, whatever that really is. And Red Hat has got 50% of it. This is revenue. And, you know, we know the muscle of IBM is behind OpenShift. So there's really not hard to believe. Now we've got some other data points that show how Kubernetes is becoming less visible and more embedded under of the hood. If you will, as this chart shows this is data from CNCF's annual survey they had 1800 respondents here, and the data showed that 79% of respondents use certified Kubernetes hosted platforms. Amazon elastic container service for Kubernetes was the most prominent 39% followed by Azure Kubernetes service at 23% in Azure AKS engine at 17%. With Google's GKE, Google Kubernetes engine behind those three. Now. You have to ask, okay, Google. Google's management Initially they had concerns. You know, why are we open sourcing such a key technology? And the premise was, it would level the playing field. And for sure it has, but you have to ask has it driven the monetization Google was after? And I would've to say no, it probably didn't. But think about where Google would've been. If it hadn't open source Kubernetes how relevant would it be in the cloud discussion. Despite its distant third position behind AWS and Microsoft or even fourth, if you include Alibaba without Kubernetes Google probably would be much less prominent or possibly even irrelevant in cloud, enterprise cloud. Okay. Let's wrap up with some comments on the state of Kubernetes and maybe a thought or two about, you know, where we're headed. So look, no shocker Kubernetes for all its improbable beginning has gone mainstream in the past year or so. We're seeing much more maturity and support for state full workloads and big ecosystem support with respect to better security and continued simplification. But you know, it's still pretty complex. It's getting better, but it's not VMware level of maturity. For example, of course. Now adoption has always been strong for Kubernetes, for cloud native companies who start with containers on day one, but we're seeing many more. IT organizations adopting Kubernetes as it matures. It's interesting, you know, Docker set out to be the system of the cloud and Kubernetes has really kind of become that. Docker desktop is where Docker's action really is. That's where Docker is thriving. It sold off Docker swarm to Mirantis has made some tweaks. Docker has made some tweaks to its licensing model to be able to continue to evolve its its business. To hear more about that at DockerCon. And as we said, years ago we expected Kubernetes to become less visible Stu Miniman and I talked about this in one of our predictions post and really become more embedded into other platforms. And that's exactly what's happening here but it's still complicated. Remember, remember the... Go back to the early and mid cycle of VMware understanding things like application performance you needed folks in lab coats to really remediate problems and dig in and peel the onion and scale the system you know, and in some ways you're seeing that dynamic repeated with Kubernetes, security performance scale recovery, when something goes wrong all are made more difficult by the rapid pace at which the ecosystem is evolving Kubernetes. But it's definitely headed in the right direction. So what's next for Kubernetes we would expect further simplification and you're going to see more abstractions. We live in this world of almost perpetual abstractions. Now, as Kubernetes improves support from multi cluster it will be begin to treat those clusters as a unified group. So kind of abstracting multiple clusters and treating them as, as one to be managed together. And this is going to create a lot of ecosystem focus on scaling globally. Okay, once you do that, you're going to have to worry about latency and then you're going to have to keep pace with security as you expand the, the threat area. And then of course recovery what happens when something goes wrong, more complexity, the harder it is to recover and that's going to require new services to share resources across clusters. So look for that. You also should expect more automation. It's going to be driven by the host cloud providers as Kubernetes supports more state full applications and begins to extend its cluster management. Cloud providers will inject as much automation as possible into the system. Now and finally, as these capabilities mature we would expect to see better support for data intensive workloads like, AI and Machine learning and inference. Schedule with these workloads becomes harder because they're so resource intensive and performance management becomes more complex. So that's going to have to evolve. I mean, frankly, many of the things that Kubernetes team way back when, you know they back burn it early on, for example, you saw in Docker swarm or Mesos they're going to start to enter the scene now with Kubernetes as they start to sort of prioritize some of those more complex functions. Now, the last thing I'll ask you to think about is what's next beyond Kubernetes, you know this isn't it right with serverless and IOT in the edge and new data, heavy workloads there's something that's going to disrupt Kubernetes. So in that, by the way, in that CNCF survey nearly 40% of respondents were using serverless and that's going to keep growing. So how is that going to change the development model? You know, Andy Jassy once famously said that if they had to start over with Amazon retail, they'd start with serverless. So let's keep an eye on the horizon to see what's coming next. All right, that's it for now. I want to thank my colleagues, Stephanie Chan who helped research this week's topics and Alex Myerson on the production team, who also manages the breaking analysis podcast, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on socials, so thanks to all of you. Remember these episodes, they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen, just search breaking analysis podcast. Don't forget to check out ETR website @etr.ai. We'll also publish. We publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and Silicon angle.com. You can get in touch with me, email me directly david.villane@Siliconangle.com or DM me at D Vollante. You can comment on our LinkedIn post. This is Dave Vollante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, everybody. Thanks for watching. Stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to this Cube Conversation kicking off 2022, I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We're with Loris Degioanni, Chief Technology Officer and founder of Sysdig. A company that's in the pioneering cloud native and cloud native security, open source, big part of the CNCF, CUBECon coverage. Of course, we know them as of that environment as well as DockerCon which we've covered many times. Sysdig is a very successful company. Loris, welcome to theCUBE Conversation. >> Thank you and thanks for having me. >> Well, we know a lot about you, but a lot of folks are learning about you guys with your success. Congratulations on the funding and the validation of your product, which is not a surprise. We've been saying on theCUBE open source has been powering innovation for some time and getting stronger, faster. The predictions in the Linux Foundation about this open source contributions continue to be blown away by their projections and more and more is coming. A new generation is upon us. Cloud Native, Edge, Kubernetes. All of these things are powering a modern application environment which is changing business. And under the covers, you guys are a big part of it. So take us through who Sysdig is, what you guys do for the folks out there and let's get into it. Obviously open source is a big part of it. Take us through who is Sysdig and what do you guys do. >> Yeah, Sysdig helps you run your software in the cloud in a way that is secure and confidently. We have a security solution that covers containers, cloud and Kubernetes. And we cover you in the life cycle of modern application. So the Sysdig security platform helps you secure application in a way that ranges from like shift left in CSD and finding vulnerabilities in your CSD pipeline to run time security that is very important in the cloud in particular with orchestrated infrastructures like the ones that are run by Kubernetes. And then of course, everything that has to do with the forensics, threat-hunting and so on. And the world is changing, security is changing, and Sysdig is one of the startups, one of the companies that is at the forefront of true modern cloud native security. >> So I got to ask you. Were you sitting in your backyard one day thinking, hey, I'm going to start a company? How did this all come together? I mean, the originator story, because we saw open source, we saw even more before CNCF was formed, you saw what cloud was doing. Again, we saw OpenStack and all these other things happening around technology. What was the driver behind the founding of Sysdig, and then how did that progress? Because again, there's an open source component here I want to get into. >> Yeah, and it's interesting that you say backyard because actually Sysdig was actually started in my backyard. Just outside of here. So the backyard metaphor is very, very fitting here. And in a general way, let's say I come from a background in open source for a very long time. Sysdig is my second company. My first company was called Case Technologies. It was the company behind an open source network analyzer called Wireshark, which is widely used by millions and millions of people around the world to do network troubleshooting and network analysis. And when we were doing network packets, we were using like the network devices to collect information. The data that is being transferred on the network has some very nice properties, it's rich. It's very deep. When you can see and decode what's happening on the network, you can understand what applications are doing, what the users are doing. I used to say, packets never lie, right? Because you could connect to the router and collect this data and they have a very good picture without any two instrument libraries to link, to install stuff and so on. And all of a sudden, we're moving to the cloud and the router that was like the vintage point for this beautiful way of doing security and visibility disappears. And you're renting instances that are floating in the Amazon cloud. And when the world changed that way from one point of view, I was sure that what we're doing before was useful and was powerful for the users. But I was also sure, okay, the world is going to change. The retrofitted solutions are not going to work. We can take our product, but then we have the innovator dilemma. We have a product that we cannot completely radically change. So I decided let's start from scratch. Let's start Sysdig. Let's try to understand actually what this cloud is going, where containers are going. There's this new Kubernetes thing that everybody's talking about. What does it mean to offer deep, rich, but at the same time lightweight and easy to deploy security and visibility for this kind of new way of writing software and that's how Sysdig was born. >> So if I remember correctly back in that timeframe, that couple you said you found a millions people using that application. If I remember correctly, that was software network monitoring. Is that true? Is that open source at that time? Was that an open project or was that? >> Yeah, like Wireshark is a network analyzer and the software that we're doing was heavily open source oriented and was mostly software and there were also potentially appliances because this was data center more kind of stuff. >> That was before cloud even came here. So again, defined data center software and defined clouds happening. So again, good segue into kind of where security, you mentioned footprints, you can track people with packets. So to your point, is this the tie into security, tell us how this fits in with open source and security with the software piece? >> Yeah, what Sysdig did essentially, the idea was let's learn from our prior life. I always say that every new wave of technology is built on the shoulders of the previous one. And you'd never reinvent anything. You just apply it and evolve it. And the same thing we did with Sysdig. So we learned what was working with our previous approaches that were based on observing the applications behavior by looking essentially at network traffic, but we adapted it to modern infrastructures. And open source was our mantra before with Wireshark and became our mantra with Sysdig. Sysdig, the company name comes from the open source tool that we released was the first thing that we released in our company. And then few years later with Falco, which now is the premier open source project that was created by Sysdig and is now part of the CNCF, it's an incubating project. And it's essentially the runtime security tool for containers, Kubernetes, and cloud. >> Take us through that Falco, because I think this is an important distinction on your success trajectory because CNCF has a nice playbook where companies can contribute to the CNCF at the same time, that creates an open environment for all, and then have a business model tied to it. This is kind of a new, not new, but this is a successful way to be open source and have a commercial opportunity. >> Yeah, and very much a substantial portion of our commercial product is let's say an extension of Falco. But let's say our approach was like, let's first produce something that is truly useful for the community and fits in the proper way with the ecosystem, with the rest of the ecosystem. Nowadays in every field security as well, you don't build any more a single solution. You build something that needs to fit very well in the stack. Kubernetes, Prometers, network meshes and DCO and this kind of stuff, these all fit together. So Falco, which is the runtime security component needs to fit as well. So initially our focus was like, okay, we need to fill the gap of runtime security for containers, for Kubernetes, and also for cloud. But we need to do that in a way that is community first and data really helps, but also engages and takes advantage of the users, of the broader community. At that point, going to the CNCF and telling the CNCF, hey, look, we developed these, are you interested in partnering with us and being essentially the organization behind this project, was very natural. And that's what we did in 2016, sorry, 2018. 2016 is when Falco started, 2018. And at that point, you know, it's a great partnership because the CNCF is really a great home for all of these projects and really makes it possible for the users to trust a project in a way that they know that even if the commercial banker, even if the original creators, even if the team rotates and changes and evolves, the end users can still use this project, trust this project and know that it's community driven. And it's been a great journey for us. >> How would you describe what Falco is and what are the key use cases? >> Yeah, Falco is, I compare it to the security camera for your containers, your house and your cloud infrastructure. So the same way that the security camera allows you to observe maybe what's happening in your home, even if you have a lock, is still useful to have a security camera, right? To understand when something breaks in what they're doing, when they do it, get an alarm when something better happens. Similarly, in software infrastructures, you can still have your lock, your firewall and so on, but then you use a security camera like Falco that is able to observe every single container, every single process, every single machine, every single network connection and so on. Keep an eye on it and then it has sort of a points-based system that includes a bunch of policies that come essentially pre-packaged that allow the users to detect when something dangerous or suspicious happens in the infrastructure. For example, I don't know somebody is spawning or sharing their radius container. Or somebody is logging in AWS without multi-factor authentication. Falco keeps a constant eye and lets you know, it gives you an alert when something like that happens. >> You know what I love about what you guys do and kind of highlights what we've been saying on theCUBE for many, many years is that the networking concepts of the older generations have been moving up the stack with cloud because you got rule engines, policy automation, all these things are now part of connected systems. So if you have the cloud, which is essentially a distributed computing, you have more networks, more connections. And so the networking paradigms of packets can be moved over to software, well, software maintenance, if you will, or anything, any middleware, whatever you want to call it. I mean, this is kind of a new paradigm. So, what's your reaction to that? I want to get your take on this because this is kind of really happening. >> Yeah, and you are absolutely right. And what us as a Falco community or as Sysdig as a company is exactly that. We're taking the concepts that were maybe at the base of the previous generation of the data center in terms of policies, in terms of one clause and we're sort of elevating them to what modern cloud is. To give you an example, I don't know if you remember, but a Falco was inspired by a tool called Snort and the company also was Sourcefire. Snort used to listen on the network, constantly observe the network traffic and the deploy policies to tell you, okay, somebody uploaded a file from China and this file contains a malware. Now we do this, but we're able to see inside containers. We have cloud context. We understand the regions. We understand Kubernetes namespace and all these kinds of stuff. So we're able to put so much more context and be so much closer to the user, but the concepts are the same. We're just, as I was saying, sitting on the shoulders of people before us that invented this and we're modernizing them. >> Well, this is what refactoring is all about. This is the benefit of the cloud. I think, this is why a lot of the cloud native success is happening because companies are realizing that they can actually not just re platform in the cloud, but actually refactor their business, completely different. Using other paradigms and not necessarily rip and replace or just cut and paste. They can take concepts and codify them in their workloads, not necessarily general purpose. So again, key cloud concept and only going to get stronger with the edge developing. So again, more and more complexity, connected complexity. >> Yeah, complexity that more and more you manage through automation, right? Which is another key concept in the cloud. So we are able as a market, as a community to have and manage more and more complex infrastructures because we have tools that are able to automate, to take care of stuff for us, to potentially remediate, which is another big theme in modern security for us and so on. And of course, again, companies like Sysdig, try to really read these in the plight, in a proper way that can be the most possible useful. >> And hackers love complexity, right? And love chaos. And so unless you tame that with really good software, this is the key challenge. >> You need to manage chaos and you need good software to help you manage chaos. >> All right, final question for you. How is Sysdig and the Falco community working with AWS? >> Yeah, in a number of ways. One of the beauties, as I was telling before of essentially being built on an open source project like Falco is that you can really work together with cloud providers like AWS with mutual advantage. For example, AWS and team members at Amazon have done many contributions to Falco and the Sysdig system and integrations and so on. We partnered as Falco community and Sysdig with AWS to offer proper support for Falco versus the products on Fargate, which is, managed containers are the future, are very powerful. Everybody wants to go there, but then you need to make sure that you are covered, you have security from the point of view of severability and so on. Sysdig and AWS work together on doing a P trace based implementation, this is a technical thing, but essentially it means that a tool like Falco can give you invitations, can be the security camera for Fargate as well. And in general way, Amazon is a great partner for us on a daily basis as a community and as a company. >> Loris, you've got a great company there. And again, it was great to see you guys grow from the beginning and the wave is here. As they say, in California, you guys are riding the right wave. And I think it's just the beginning. I think you're going to see more and more security be programmable, built in, automated, under the covers, invisible, but working. And I think the same is going to be true for data and other things. So a lot more to do. And again, it's distributed computing. We've seen this movie before, but not in this environment. So new tools are coming and you guys are a big part of it. Thank you so much for coming on theCUBE and sharing what you guys are doing and the technology behind Sysdig. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much and thank you for the great conversation. >> Okay, this is theCUBE I'm John Furrier your host for Cube conversations with Sysdig's Loris Degioanni, CTO of Sysdig. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

>>Hello. And welcome back to the cubes coverage here. Live in Las Vegas for 80 bucks. Re-invent 2021. We're in person been two years since the cube has been on the ground here at a live event, it's a hybrid event. Check them out online. AWS has got to reinvent site as well as cube online. I'm Jennifer, your host got a great guest here from Latin America. Honeywell is VP of Latin America for AWS, a lot of global change, but the regions, a lot of great stuff, cultural integration. If you will, a skills people all around the world using cloud compute. Jaime's great, but coming on the cube. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you, John. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be >>Here with you. Um, I wish I could speak in the native tongue, but I can't. I ended it, but I know online there's some special rooms that people have on the cube sites. So a lot of tech, a lot of cloud native in the world, I'm seeing Latin America and all the events we've done had great participation in the cloud ecosystem in Latin America, a lot of young talent, a lot of things happening. What's what's going on. >>Well, as you can see around us today, a lot of things are happening in the cloud. We are in this inflection point in the industry of technology that is accelerating innovation, accelerating transformation all over the world. And obviously Latin America is not an exception. We're seeing this momentum. We're seeing large enterprise companies leveraging the cloud to transform their customer experiences, to drive innovation. We're seeing startups to drive competitiveness and try to compete with the world. And that's also enabling a lot of younger generations to move faster, to innovate, to dream big and drive new ideas. So you're seeing that same momentum in Latin America, all across the region. But this is the one John and we, and we are seeing this happening for many years ahead. >>You know, I love inflection points and I've been saying this and just wrote a blog post about it on siliconangle.com that we are now at another inflection point where cloud is going next gen, where in any kind of revolution, every inflection point, this cultural revolution starts with the young people. And I've never seen an impact with Kubernetes and microservices and the modern approach of the younger generation. It's like if I was 20, that'd be a kid in the candy store. What I don't have to build land is there for me. I got to don't have to provision any servers. So the I'm seeing an impact for the younger generation around cloud and it's global phenomenon. What's what's going on in the younger talent in Latin America. Well, >>Let's just say, I mean, generations see inflection as opportunity, opportunity to make new things happen to, as I said to dream big and actually enabled their ideas to become a reality. And that's where you're seeing all across the region. You see this in Brazil, you see these in Argentina, you see this Columbia, Mexico, largest startup communities that are competing with the world. And you have, you know, we have an example like Newman that was here this morning, like started seven years ago, 2014 with a view transforming the financial services experience. That's where we're seeing all across Latin America, because >>The young kids slinging APIs around with containers. Now you've got the container movement. We had a great showing from Brazil and our DockerCon event. Um, net, very notable, um, intelligence coming out of that area. Amazing young talent. I'm just blown away by the, by the work, but in the region itself is still transformation. So I know you're, you're well known for doing really big deals at AWS. Uh, I can say that big banks, multimillion dollar deals. So there's growth there there's existing business transforming while new entrepreneurs are coming in. It's kind of a best of both worlds. What's the, what's the growth look like. >>Uh, as you mentioned, very large enterprises understand that the cloud and a transformation of culture is going to allow them to innovate them, to have loyal customers, every large enterprise customer. We're thinking about different ways to contact their customers, transforming the experience you're seeing customers like like Bancolombia that are migrating their legacy systems into the cloud in order to make faster decisions, to increase agility, to increase innovation and lead their people. Because at the end journey is all about the people that their people build on behalf of their customers and transform their experiences. >>You know, one of the things I noticed during the pandemic, and I'd love to get your reaction to this because I know you're living that as well every day, even before the pandemic, but since everything went virtual now hybrid, you're seeing a very low friction point to get in and collaborate. There's almost a new social construct, connective tissue between no boundaries. So you can have an event like here at reinvent, we're in person, but yet there's an online community digitally engaging. So we're starting to see cell formation where people around the world are getting together. How has it impacted how you manage and how you engage with your customers in your region? >>Well, as I said, it's a combination of many things. Our customers are still like people in person. That's why we have our business in Brazil. We have obviously in Argentina, Colombia, Mexico, Costa Rica, Peru, we still have presses. There we are where we work very close with our customers. We understand they need and what they want to do. But now, for example, during the last two years, I've had the opportunity to leverage in technology, be present in what we call virtual trips in most of our countries full day experiences. And I have to tell you at the beginning, I was concerned. I didn't have the opportunity to meet some of these people before today. When I see them in person here in re-invent this like, as if we had met from four. So as you say is the hybrid experience that allows us to be in-person with our customers, with our partners across the region, but also in a remote base, having the opportunity to build the same relations. And that's what technology is enabling better experience, faster innovation and moral agility and growth all across Latin America. >>So it's one of the things I talked to Adams Leschi about before reinvent a week ago, um, on a bank exclusive interview with him was he was very adamant about the clouds expanding everywhere. Honestly, you've got the edge in manufacturing, ADP percent everywhere, but he mentioned the regions, the continued growth of regions. It's been 10 years since Latin America. How's that impacted what you got going on there. And what's next from a region perspective. And how has that changed the landscape >>While you're touching? John is probably the most important thing we're seeing. You're absolutely right. We started 10 years ago, December 14 in Brazil with an office and a region there Caesar will launch offices in most of our countries. Now the important thing here is how our technology is enabling our companies, Latin American companies. We have 17 million companies in Latin America be more competitive. You know, some examples, I just mentioned Nubank, but we have that is competing with very large companies. You have Bancolombia you have GBM in Mexico. So what we're seeing is our companies be able by leveraging the latest and best technology to compete with the world and to drive that competitiveness that we need. The other thing about talent. If we enable and empower our Latin American talent or builders to build these new experiences, that's, what's going to allow the region to accelerate their growth, their competitiveness, and their social benefits. >>It was interesting too, is that you can see from the trends to do that. You can do it really fast now instantly. So it's, it's an amazing opportunity. Um, I gotta ask you while you're here, cause I'm really curious. I'm sure the viewers will be as well. What's what's going on in Latin America from a trend stamp. What's the vibe like? What's the, what's the environment like what's the, what's the mindset like there in those regions, from an entrepreneurship perspective, from a cloud enablement perspective, a cultural perspective, what's your report? How would you report on that? >>First of all, we're seeing the cloud accelerate all across Latin America. And I, and as I said, it's really day one for all of us. The other thing is that our customers are understanding that digital transformation is not a technology transformation. It's a cultural transformation leverage by leveraging technology for that to happen. It's about people. It's about mechanisms in the company. It's about the way companies make decisions. And that's why, why the power of the cloud is so important in impact to empower these people, to make things happen. In fact, what we're seeing in Latin America is CEOs of some of these companies like Bancolombia CEO is very engaged in this transformation where he's reviewing technology, he's understanding the cloud because that's how they realize or how they understand the importance of, you know, changing their companies, focused on their customers. The other thing is Latin American companies understand that they need to understand their customer needs work backwards from that and leverage that their technology, the cloud in order to improve the experiences of the >>Costumes. So I had to put you on the spot on a question. I gotta ask you, you know, if this is 10 years of re-invent, we've been here for nine. And I remember the first one we went with the second one. Wasn't many people here were like getting guests from the hallway. Hey, come on up on the cube. And now we can't, there's no open spots. Um, 15 years is how old Amazon is Amazon web services. So, so as Adam takes over and you have Amazon going in the next 15 years, what's your vision on how that evolves? Because you know, you're looking at the pandemic ending and pandemic has proven to a lot of people that digital works here, but as exposed what doesn't work, you can't hide the ball anymore if your business, but you're exposed. If you're in the cloud or you've got modern software, if no one's using it, it's not working change it. You can do it fast. So the whole hiding behind, you know, I bought this project, what this software, old guard, new guard, I mean, you can't hide the volume where, so that changes things, but also the creativity of refactoring business is also there. So you got, you got fear. I don't can't hide the ball and you're exposed to opportunity. >>What's your reaction to that? In fact, what I was going to say is where we see some opportunity. I mean, if you see 15 years side where you see, first of all, is all customers in Latin America or everywhere else leveraging the cloud. That's the most important thing. Number two, people leveraging technology to make things happen. It's about building. It's about me. And we talk about this before is when you realize that people are looking for better ways to improve their experience, launching the startups. And this is in finance, in the financial services. This is in manufacturing. This is in all the different industries across Latin America. We see opportunity. The other one, John is a region like Latin America understands that with people you need to enable them. It's about talent. And in order to enable talent, you need to educate them. So in AWS, we're actually investing a lot of time and effort to what to give them the best training content in their local language to launch programs that allow them to innovate like activate that enables to start off to launch. So what we're doing is giving Vilders younger generation tools to be more successful and again, dream big and make things happen now. So the next 15 years, Saba opportunity transforming faster decision-making agility in the way companies move and also driving competitiveness in Latin America to be able to compete in a globalized environment because everything is interconnected and it's about global reach today. And that's why we need our talent to invest, educate, to drive the transformation of the region. >>The global connectedness is a real point there. Great insight. I think the cultural revolutions here, the younger generations engaged existing businesses transforming, which means if they don't do it right, they're going to lose it to the other guy, other people. So I have, okay. Final question for you. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate your time. I know you're busy looking at the pandemic ending. What's the major patterns that you're seeing in Latin America, around companies strategies to transform out of the pandemic, a growth strategy, because everyone I talked to was like, we're going to come out with a tailwind and we're going to be on the upward slope. Obviously they're using cloud of course, but is there a pattern of that coming out of the pandemic with an upward growth? So >>We're seeing all across Latin America companies looking for better ways to reach our customers. That is the fact traditional touch points are not enough. Now they are building on top of that. So we are seeing Latin American companies invested, transform their legacy systems in order to look for different ways to approach the customers. Number two, we're seeing Latin American companies to leverage data in order to make better, more informed and faster decisions and to scale their business and accelerate and empower their teams. We're seeing companies in Latin America, investing in tools to let their people make things happen. As I said before, cultural transformation, digital transformation is about people. It's about fast decision making and it's about leveraging the technology to make it happen. We're seeing a lot of startup communities across our countries, new ideas, taking place. And as you know, AWS has always been focused on let known supporting startups and those new ideas. So we're seeing a lot of things happen in the region. A lot of momentum, a lot of growth. And what we're seeing is the cloud enabling that growth, that opportunity that you were talking about with our view that 15 years out, a lot of new business models are going to be late making hat. They can have >>Great point. I think just to highlight that one key thing, talent, you just add talent to the cloud capabilities. You can get there faster, you do it with a team, even better. Um, collaborations changing. Just the ability to capture opportunities are now faster than when we were growing up. They have a better don't think literally that you wish you were 20. Again, I do with all this code out there. >>And that's where we say it's about the people. And I can tell you from one of our biggest investments, my biggest investments is given the talent that opportunity, given our best training content in local language so they can learn new and better ways of making things happen. So again, as I said, leveraging supporting startups to grow. So all the problems around talent for Latin American cities, for our customers and our partners, because at the end, we understand that our partners expand our solutions to the market. And these are partners that allow us to be present in the many countries that are part of Latin America. >>Well, we'd love your vision, love your, love, your, your insight. And we will have a cube region in your area, and we're going to contact you. The cube will open their doors for the Latin America community. So look for that this year. Thanks for coming on. Now, >>joining you and hosting you in our countries. You're going to see a lot of enthusiasm, passion, and growth and opportunity Latina, >>A lot of great action. The younger generations engaged the older generations transforming the business models. The cloud is going next, gen. This is the cube bringing all the live action. You're watching the queue, the leader in global tech coverage. I'm John Farrow, your host. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE Conversation. >> Well, welcome to theCUBE Conversation here in theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, your host. Got a great conversation with two great guests, going to explore the edge, what it means in terms of commercial, but also national security. And as the world goes digital, we're going to have that deep dive conversation around how it's all transforming. We've got Ki Lee, Vice President of Booz Allen's Digital Business. Ki, great to have you. John Pisano, Principal at Booz Allen's Digital Cloud Solutions. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on. >> And thanks for having us, John. >> So one of the most hottest topics, obviously besides cloud computing having the most refactoring impact on business and government and public sector has been the next phase of cloud growth and cloud scale, and that's really modern applications and consumer, and then here for national security and for governments here in the U.S. is military impact. And as digital transformation starts to go to the next level, you're starting to see the architectures emerge where the edge, the IoT edge, the industrial IoT edge, or any kind of edge concept, 5G is exploding, making that much more of a dense, more throughput for connectivity with wireless. You got Amazon with Snowball, Snowmobile, all kinds of ways to deploy technology, that's IT like and operational technologies. It's causing quite a cloud operational opportunity and disruption, so I want to get into it. Ki, let's start with you. I mean, we're looking at an architecture that's changing both commercial and public sector with the edge. What are the key considerations that you guys see as people have to really move fast in this new architecture of digital? >> Yeah, John, I think it's a great question. And if I could just share our observation on why we even started investing in edge. You mentioned the cloud, but as we've reflected upon kind of the history of IT, then you take a look from mainframes to desktops to servers to cloud to mobile and now IoT, what we observed was that industry investing in infrastructure led to kind of an evolution of IT, right? So as you mentioned, with industry spending billions on IoT and edge, we just feel that that's going to be the next evolution. If you take a look at, you mentioned 5G, I think 5G will be certainly an accelerator to edge because of the resilience, the lower latency and so forth. But taking a look at what's happening in space, you mentioned space earlier as well, right, and what Starlink is doing by putting satellites to actually provide transport into the space, we're thinking that that actually is going to be the next ubiquitous thing. Once transport becomes ubiquitous, just like cloud allows storage to be ubiquitous. We think that the next generation internet will be space-based. So when you think about it, connected, it won't be connected servers per se, it will be connected devices. >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> That's kind of some of the observations and why we've been really focusing on investing in edge. >> I want to come back to that piece around space and edge and bring it from a commercial and then also tactical architecture in a minute 'cause there's a lot to unpack there, role of open source, modern application development, software and hardware supply chains, all are core issues that are going to emerge. But I want to get with John real quick on cloud impact, because you think about 5G and the future of work or future of play, you've got people, right? So whether you're at a large concert like Coachella or a 49ers or Patriots game or Redskins game if you're in the D.C. area, you got people there, of congestion, and now you got devices now serving those people. And that's their play, people at work, whether it's a military operation, and you've got work, play, tactical edge things. How is cloud connecting? 'Cause this is like the edge has never been kind of an IT thing. It's been more of a bandwidth or either telco or something else operationally. What's the cloud at scale, cloud operations impact? >> Yeah, so if you think about how these systems are architected and you think about those considerations that Ki kind of touched on, a lot of what you have to think about now is what aspects of the application reside in the cloud, where you tend to be less constrained. And then how do you architect that application to move out towards the edge, right? So how do I tier my application? Ultimately, how do I move data and applications around the ecosystem? How do I need to evolve where my application stages things and how that data and those apps are moved to each of those different tiers? So when we build a lot of applications, especially if they're in the cloud, they're built with some of those common considerations of elasticity, scalability, all those things; whereas when you talk about congestion and disconnected operations, you lose a lot of those characteristics, and you have to kind of rethink that. >> Ki, let's get into the aspect you brought up, which is space. And then I was mentioning the tactical edge from a military standpoint. These are use cases of deployments, and in fact, this is how people have to work now. So you've got the future of work or play, and now you've got the situational deployments, whether it's a new tower of next to a stadium. We've all been at a game or somewhere or a concert where we only got five bars and no connectivity. So we know what that means. So now you have people congregating in work or play, and now you have a tactical deployment. What's the key things that you're seeing that it's going to help make that better? Are there any breakthroughs that you see that are possible? What's going on in your view? >> Yeah, I mean, I think what's enabling all of this, again, one is transport, right? So whether it's 5G to increase the speed and decrease the latency, whether it's things like Starlink with making transport and comms ubiquitous, that tied with the fact that ships continue to get smaller and faster, right? And when you're thinking about tactical edge, those devices have limited size, weight, power conditions and constraints. And so the software that goes on them has to be just as lightweight. And that's why we've actually partnered with SUSE and what they've done with K3s to do that. So I think those are some of the enabling technologies out there. John, as you've kind of alluded to it, there are additional challenges as we think about it. We're not, it's not a simple transition and monetization here, but again, we think that this will be the next major disruption. >> What do you guys think, John, if you don't mind weighing in too on this as modern application development happens, we just were covering CloudNativeCon and KubeCon, DockerCon, containers are very popular. Kubernetes is becoming super great. As you look at the telco landscape where we're kind of converging this edge, it has to be commercially enterprise grade. It has to have that transit and transport that's intelligent and all these new things. How does open source fit into all this? Because we're seeing open source becoming very reliable, more people are contributing to open source. How does that impact the edge in your opinion? >> So from my perspective, I think it's helping accelerate things that traditionally maybe may have been stuck in the traditional proprietary software confines. So within our mindset at Booz Allen, we were very focused on open architecture, open based systems, which open source obviously is an aspect of that. So how do you create systems that can easily interface with each other to exchange data, and how do you leverage tools that are available in the open source community to do that? So containerization is a big drive that is really going throughout the open source community. And there's just a number of other tools, whether it's tools that are used to provide basic services like how do I move code through a pipeline all the way through? How do I do just basic hardening and security checking of my capabilities? Historically, those have tend to be closed source type apps, whereas today you've got a very broad community that's able to very quickly provide and develop capabilities and push it out to a community that then continues to adapt and add to it or grow that library of stuff. >> Yeah, and then we've got trends like Open RAN. I saw some Ground Station for the AWS. You're starting to see Starlink, you mentioned. You're bringing connectivity to the masses. What is that going to do for operators? Because remember, security is a huge issue. We talk about security all the time. Where does that kind of come in? Because now you're really OT, which has been very purpose-built kind devices in the old IoT world. As the new IoT and the edge develop, you're going to need to have intelligence. You're going to be data-driven. There is an open source impact key. So, how, if I'm a senior executive, how do I get my arms around this? I really need to think this through because the security risks alone could be more penetration areas, more surface area. >> Right. That's a great question. And let me just address kind of the value to the clients and the end users in the digital battlefield as our warriors to increase survivability and lethality. At the end of the day from a mission perspective, we know we believe that time's a weapon. So reducing any latency in that kind of observe, orient, decide, act OODA loop is value to the war fighter. In terms of your question on how to think about this, John, you're spot on. I mean, as I've mentioned before, there are various different challenges, one, being the cyber aspect of it. We are absolutely going to be increasing our attack surface when you think about putting processing on edge devices. There are other factors too, non-technical that we've been thinking about s we've tried to kind of engender and kind of move to this kind of edge open ecosystem where we can kind of plug and play, reuse, all kind of taking the same concepts of the open-source community and open architectures. But other things that we've considered, one, workforce. As you mentioned before, when you think about these embedded systems and so forth, there aren't that many embedded engineers out there. But there is a workforce that are digital and software engineers that are trained. So how do we actually create an abstraction layer that we can leverage that workforce and not be limited by some of the constraints of the embedded engineers out there? The other thing is what we've, in talking with several colleagues, clients, partners, what people aren't thinking about is actually when you start putting software on these edge devices in the billions, the total cost of ownership. How do you maintain an enterprise that potentially consists of billions of devices? So extending the standard kind of DevSecOps that we move to automate CI/CD to a cloud, how do we move it from cloud to jet? That's kind of what we say. How do we move DevSecOps to automate secure containers all the way to the edge devices to mitigate some of those total cost of ownership challenges. >> It's interesting, as you have software defined, this embedded system discussion is hugely relevant and important because when you have software defined, you've got to be faster in the deployment of these devices. You need security, 'cause remember, supply chain on the hardware side and software in that too. >> Absolutely. >> So if you're going to have a serviceability model where you have to shift left, as they say, you got to be at the point of CI/CD flows, you need to be having security at the time of coding. So all these paradigms are new in Day-2 operations. I call it Day-0 operations 'cause it should be in everyday too. >> Yep. Absolutely. >> But you've got to service these things. So software supply chain becomes a very interesting conversation. It's a new one that we're having on theCUBE and in the industry Software supply chain is a superly relevant important topic because now you've got to interface it, not just with other software, but hardware. How do you service devices in space? You can't send a break/fix person in space. (chuckles) Maybe you will soon, but again, this brings up a whole set of issues. >> No, so I think it's certainly, I don't think anyone has the answers. We sure don't have all the answers but we're very optimistic. If you take a look at what's going on within the U.S. Air Force and what the Chief Software Officer Nic Chaillan and his team, and we're a supporter of this and a plankowner of Platform One. They were ahead of the curve in kind of commoditizing some of these DevSecOps principles in partnership with the DoD CIO and that shift left concept. They've got a certified and accredited platform that provides that DevSecOps. They have an entire repository in the Iron Bank that allows for hardened containers and reciprocity. All those things are value to the mission and around the edge because those are all accelerators. I think there's an opportunity to leverage industry kind of best practices as well and patterns there. You kind of touched upon this, John, but these devices honestly just become firmware. The software is just, if the devices themselves just become firmware , you can just put over the wire updates onto them. So I'm optimistic. I think all the piece parts are taking place across industry and in the government. And I think we're primed to kind of move into this next evolution. >> Yeah. And it's also some collaboration. What I like about, why I'm bringing up the open source angle and I think this is where I think the major focus will shift to, and I want to get your reaction to it is because open source is seeing a lot more collaboration. You mentioned some of the embedded devices. Some people are saying, this is the weakest link in the supply chain, and it can be shored up pretty quickly. But there's other data, other collective intelligence that you can get from sharing data, for instance, which hasn't really been a best practice in the cybersecurity industry. So now open source, it's all been about sharing, right? So you got the confluence of these worlds colliding, all aspects of culture and Dev and Sec and Ops and engineering all coming together. John, what's your reaction to that? Because this is a big topic. >> Yeah, so it's providing a level of transparency that historically we've not seen, right? So in that community, having those pipelines, the results of what's coming out of it, it's allowing anyone in that life cycle or that supply chain to look at it, see the state of it, and make a decision on, is this a risk I'm willing to take or not? Or am I willing to invest and personally contribute back to the community to address that because it's important to me and it's likely going to be important to some of the others that are using it? So I think it's critical, and it's enabling that acceleration and shift that I talked about, that now that everybody can see it, look inside of it, understand the state of it, contribute to it, it's allowing us to break down some of the barriers that Ki talked about. And it reinforces that excitement that we're seeing now. That community is enabling us to move faster and do things that maybe historically we've not been able to do. >> Ki, I'd love to get your thoughts. You mentioned battlefield, and I've been covering a lot of the tactical edge around the DOD's work. You mentioned about the military on the Air Force side, Platform One, I believe, was from the Air Force work that they've done, all cloud native kind of directions. But when you talk about a war field, you talk about connectivity. I mean, who controls the DNS in Taiwan, or who controls the DNS in Korea? I mean, we have to deploy, you've got to stand up infrastructure. How about agility? I mean, tactical command and control operations, this has got to be really well done. So this is not a trivial thing. >> No. >> How are you seeing this translate into the edge innovation area? (laughs) >> It's certainly not a trivial thing, but I think, again, I'm encouraged by how government and industry are partnering up. There's a vision set around this joint all domain command control, JADC2. And then all the services are getting behind that, are looking into that, and this vision of this military, internet of military things. And I think the key thing there, John, as you mentioned, it's not just the connected of the sensors, which requires the transport again, but also they have to be interoperable. So you can have a bunch of sensors and platforms out there, they may be connected, but if they can't speak to one another in a common language, that kind of defeats the purpose and the mission value of that sensor or shooter kind of paradigm that we've been striving for for ages. So you're right on. I mean, this is not a trivial thing, but I think over history we've learned quite a bit. Technology and innovation is happening at just an amazing rate where things are coming out in months as opposed to decades as before. I agree, not trivial, but again, I think there are all the piece parts in place and being put into place. >> I think you mentioned earlier that the personnel, the people, the engineers that are out there, not enough, more of them coming in. I think now the appetite and the provocative nature of this shift in tech is going to attract a lot of people because the old adage is these are hard problems attracts great people. You got in new engineering, SRE like scale engineering. You have software development, that's changing, becoming much more robust and more science-driven. You don't have to be just a coder as a software engineer. You could be coming at it from any angle. So there's a lot more opportunities from a personnel standpoint now to attract great people, and there's real hard problems to solve, not just security. >> Absolutely. Definitely. I agree with that 100%. I would also contest that it's an opportunity for innovators. We've been thinking about this for some time, and we think there's absolute value from various different use cases that we've identified, digital battlefield, force protection, disaster recovery, and so forth. But there are use cases that we probably haven't even thought about, even from a commercial perspective. So I think there's going to be an opportunity just like the internet back in the mid '90s for us to kind of innovate based on this new kind of edge environment. >> It's a revolution. New leadership, new brands are going to emerge, new paradigms, new workflows, new operations, clearly great stuff. I want to thank you guys for coming on. I also want to thank Rancher Labs for sponsoring this conversation. Without their support, we wouldn't be here. And now they were acquired by SUSE. We've covered their event with theCUBE virtual last year. What's the connection with those guys? Can you guys take a minute to explain the relationship with SUSE and Rancher? >> Yeah. So it's actually it's fortuitous. And I think we just, we got lucky. There's two overall aspects of it. First of all, we are both, we partner on the Platform One basic ordering agreement. So just there we had a common mentality of DevSecOps. And so there was a good partnership there, but then when we thought about we're engaging it from an edge perspective, the K3s, right? I mean, they're a leader from a container perspective obviously, but the fact that they are innovators around K3s to reduce that software footprint, which is required on these edge devices, we kind of got a twofer there in that partnership. >> John, any comment on your end? >> Yeah, I would just amplify, the K3s aspects in leveraging the containers, a lot of what we've seen success in when you look at what's going on, especially on that tactical edge around enabling capabilities, containers, and the portability it provides makes it very easy for us to interface and integrate a lot of different sensors to close the OODA loop to whoever is wearing or operating that a piece of equipment that the software is running on. >> Awesome, I'd love to continue the conversation on space and the edge and super great conversation to have you guys on. Really appreciate it. I do want to ask you guys about the innovation and the opportunities of this new shift that's happening as the next big thing is coming quickly. And it's here on us and that's cloud, I call it cloud 2.0, the cloud scale, modern software development environment, edge with 5G changing the game. Ki, I completely agree with you. And I think this is where people are focusing their attention from startups to companies that are transforming and re-pivoting or refactoring their existing assets to be positioned. And you're starting to see clear winners and losers. There's a pattern emerging. You got to be in the cloud, you got to be leveraging data, you got to be horizontally scalable, but you got to have AI machine learning in there with modern software practices that are secure. That's the playbook. Some people are making it. Some people are not getting there. So I'd ask you guys, as telcos become super important and the ability to be a telco now, we just mentioned standing up a tactical edge, for instance. Launching a satellite, a couple of hundred K, you can launch a CubeSat. That could be good and bad. So the telco business is changing radically. Cloud, telco cloud is emerging as an edge phenomenon with 5G, certainly business commercial benefits more than consumer. How do you guys see the innovation and disruption happening with telco? >> As we think through cloud to edge, one thing that we realize, because our definition of edge, John, was actually at the point of data collection on the sensor themselves. Others' definition of edge is we're a little bit further back, what we call it the edge of the IT enterprise. But as we look at this, we realize that you needed this kind of multi echelon environment from your cloud to your tactical clouds where you can do some processing and then at the edge of themselves. Really at the end of the day, it's all about, I think, data, right? I mean, everything we're talking about, it's still all about the data, right? The AI needs the data, the telco is transporting the data. And so I think if you think about it from a data perspective in relationship to the telcos, one, edge will actually enable a very different paradigm and a distributed paradigm for data processing. So, hey, instead of bringing the data to some central cloud which takes bandwidth off your telcos, push the products to the data. So mitigate what's actually being sent over those telco lines to increase the efficiencies of them. So I think at the end of the day, the telcos are going to have a pretty big component to this, even from space down to ground station, how that works. So the network of these telcos, I think, are just going to expand. >> John, what's your perspective? I mean, startups are coming out. The scalability, speed of innovation is a big factor. The old telco days had, I mean, months and years, new towers go up and now you got a backbone. It's kind of a slow glacier pace. Now it's under siege with rapid innovation. >> Yeah, so I definitely echo the sentiments that Ki would have, but I would also, if we go back and think about the digital battle space and what we've talked about, faster speeds being available in places it's not been before is great. However, when you think about facing an adversary that's a near-peer threat, the first thing they're going to do is make it contested, congested, and you have to be able to survive. While yes, the pace of innovation is absolutely pushing comms to places we've not had it before, we have to be mindful to not get complacent and over-rely on it, assuming it'll always be there. 'Cause I know in my experience wearing the uniform, and even if I'm up against an adversary, that's the first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to do whatever I can to disrupt your ability to communicate. So how do you take it down to that lowest level and still make that squad, the platoon, whatever that structure is, continue survivable and lethal. So that's something I think, as we look at the innovations, we need to be mindful of that. So when I talk about how do you architect it? What services do you use? Those are all those things that you have to think about. What if I lose it at this echelon? How do I continue the mission? >> Yeah, it's interesting. And if you look at how companies have been procuring and consuming technology, Ki, it's been like siloed. "Okay, we've got a workplace workforce project, and we have the tactical edge, and we have the siloed IT solution," when really work and play, whether it's work here in John's example, is the war fighter. And so his concern is safety, his life and protection. >> Yeah. >> The other department has to manage the comms, (laughs) and so they have to have countermeasures and contingencies ready to go. So all this is, they all integrate it now. It's not like one department. It's like it's together. >> Yeah. John, I love what you just said. I mean, we have to get away from this siloed thinking not only within a single organization, but across the enterprise. From a digital battlefield perspective, it's a joint fight, so even across these enterprise of enterprises, So I think you're spot on. We have to look horizontally. We have to integrate, we have to inter-operate, and by doing that, that's where the innovation is also going to be accelerated too, not reinventing the wheel. >> Yeah, and I think the infrastructure edge is so key. It's going to be very interesting to see how the existing incumbents can handle themselves. Obviously the towers are important. 5G obviously, that's more deployments, not as centralized in terms of the spectrum. It's more dense. It's going to create more connectivity options. How do you guys see that impacting? Because certainly more gear, like obviously not the centralized tower, from a backhaul standpoint but now the edge, the radios themselves, the wireless transit is key. That's the real edge here. How do you guys see that evolving? >> We're seeing a lot of innovations actually through small companies who are really focused on very specific niche problems. I think it's a great starting point because what they're doing is showing the art of the possible. Because again, we're in a different environment now. There's different rules. There's different capabilities. But then we're also seeing, you mentioned earlier on, some of the larger companies, the Amazons, the Microsofts, also investing as well. So I think the merge of the, you know, or the unconstrained or the possible by these small companies that are just kind of driving innovations supported by the maturity and the heft of these large companies who are building out these hardened kind of capabilities, they're going to converge at some point. And that's where I think we're going to get further innovation. >> Well, I really appreciate you guys taking the time. Final question for you guys, as people are watching this, a lot of smart executives and teams are coming together to kind of put the battle plans together for their companies as they transition from old to this new way, which is clearly cloud-scale, role of data. We hit out all the key points I think here. As they start to think about architecture and how they deploy their resources, this becomes now the new boardroom conversation that trickles down and includes everyone, including the developers. The developers are now going to be on the front lines. Mid-level managers are going to be integrated in as well. It's a group conversation. What are some of the advice that you would give to folks who are in this mode of planning architecture, trying to be positioned to come out of this pandemic with a massive growth opportunity and to be on the right side of history? What's your advice? >> It's such a great question. So I think you touched upon it. One is take the holistic approach. You mentioned architectures a couple of times, and I think that's critical. Understanding how your edge architectures will let you connect with your cloud architecture so that they're not disjointed, they're not siloed. They're interoperable, they integrate. So you're taking that enterprise approach. I think the second thing is be patient. It took us some time to really kind of, and we've been looking at this for about three years now. And we were very intentional in assessing the landscape, how people were discussing around edge and kind of pulling that all together. But it took us some time to even figure it out, hey, what are the use cases? How can we actually apply this and get some ROI and value out for our clients? So being a little bit patient in thinking through kind of how we can leverage this and potentially be a disruptor. >> John, your thoughts on advice to people watching as they try to put the right plans together to be positioned and not foreclose any future value. >> Yeah, absolutely. So in addition to the points that Ki raised, I would, number one, amplify the fact of recognize that you're going to have a hybrid environment of legacy and modern capabilities. And in addition to thinking open architectures and whatnot, think about your culture, the people, your processes, your techniques and whatnot, and your governance. How do you make decisions when it needs to be closed versus open? Where do you invest in the workforce? What decisions are you going to make in your architecture that drive that hybrid world that you're going to live in? All those recipes, patience, open, all that, that I think we often overlook the cultural people aspect of upskilling. This is a very different way of thinking on modern software delivery. How do you go through this lifecycle? How's security embedded? So making sure that's part of that boardroom conversation I think is key. >> John Pisano, Principal at Booz Allen Digital Cloud Solutions, thanks for sharing that great insight. Ki Lee, Vice President at Booz Allen Digital Business. Gentlemen, great conversation. Thanks for that insight. And I think people watching are going to probably learn a lot on how to evaluate startups to how they put their architecture together. So I really appreciate the insight and commentary. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, John. >> Okay. I'm John Furrier. This is theCUBE Conversation. Thanks for watching. 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>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of dr khan 2021. I'm john for your host of the cube. We're here with Amanda Silver, corporate vice president, product developer division at Microsoft. Amanda, Great to see you you were on last year, Dr khan. Great to see you again a full year later were remote. Thanks for coming on. I know you're super busy with build happening this week as well. Thanks for making the time to come on the cube for Dr khan. >>Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm joining you like many developers around the globe from my personal home office, >>developers really didn't skip a beat during the pandemic and again, it was not a good situation but developers, as you talked about last year on the front lines, first responders to creating value quite frankly, looking back you were pretty accurate in your prediction, developers did have an impact this year. They did create the kind of change that really changed the game for people's lives, whether it was developing solutions from a medical standpoint or even keeping systems running from call centres to making sure people got their their their goods or services and checks and and and kept sanity together. So. >>Yeah absolutely. I mean I think I think developers you know get the M. V. P. Award for this year because you know at the end of the day they are the digital first responders to the first responders and the pivot that we've had to make over the past year in terms of supporting remote telehealth, supporting you know online retail, curbside pickup. All of these things were done through developers being the ones pushing the way forward remote learning. You know my kids are learning at home right behind me right now so you might hear them during the interview that's happening because developers made that happen. >>I don't think mom please stop hogging the band with, they've got a gigabit. Stop it. Don't be streaming. My kids are all game anyway, Hey, great to have you on and you have to get the great keynote, exciting to see you guys continue the collaboration with Docker uh with GIT hub and Microsoft, A great combination, it's a 123 power punch of value. You guys are really kind of killing it. We heard from scott and dan has been on the cube. What's your thoughts on the partnership with the developer division team at Microsoft with Doctor, What's it all about this year? What's the next level? >>Well, I mean, I think, I think what's really awesome about this partnership is that we all have, we all are basically sharing a common mission. What we want to do is make sure that we're empowering developers, that we're focused on their productivity and that we're delivering value to them so they can do their job better so that they can help others. So that's really kind of what drives us day in and day out. So what we focus on is developer productivity. And I think that's a lot of what dana was talking about in her session, the developer division. Specifically, we really try to make sure that we're improving the state of the art from modern developers. So we want to make sure that every keystroke that they take, every mouse move that they make, it sounds like a song but every every one of those matter because we want to make sure that every developers writing the code that only they can write and in terms of the partnership and how that's going. You know my team and the darker team have been collaborating a ton on things like dr desktop and the Doctor Cli tool integrations. And one of the things that we do is we think about pain points and various workflows. We want to make sure that we're shaving off the edges of all of the user experience is the developers have to go through to piece all of these applications together. So one of the big pain points that we have heard from developers is that signing into the Azure cloud and especially our sovereign clouds was challenging. So we contributed back to uh back to doctor to actually make it easier to sign into these clouds. And so dr developers can now use dr desktop and the Doctor Cli to actually change the doctor context so that its Azure. So that makes it a lot easier to connect the other. Oh, sorry, go ahead. No, I was just >>going to say, I love the reference of the police song. Every breath you take, every >>mouth moving. Great, >>great line there. Uh, but I want to ask you while you're on this modern cloud um, discussion, what is I mean we have a lot of developers here at dr khan. As you know, you guys know developers in your ecosystem in core competency. From Microsoft, Kublai khan is a very operator like focus developed. This is a developer conference. You guys have build, what is the state of the art for a modern cloud developer? Could you just share your thoughts because this comes up a lot. You know, what's through the art? What's next jan new guard guard? It's his legacy. What is the state of the art for a modern cloud developer? >>Fantastic question. And extraordinarily relevant to this particular conference. You know what I think about often times it's really what is the inner loop and the outer loop look like in terms of cycle times? Because at the end of the day, what matters is the time that it takes for you to make that code change, to be able to see it in your test environment and to be able to deploy it to production and have the confidence that it's delivering the feature set that you need it to. And it's, you know, it's secure, it's reliable, it's performance, that's what a developer cares about at the end of the day. Um, at the same time, we also need to make sure that we're growing our team to meet our demand, which means we're constantly on boarding new developers. And so what I take inspiration from our, some of the tech elite who have been able to invest significant amounts in, in tuning their engineering systems, they've been able to make it so that a new developer can join a team in just a couple of minutes or less that they can actually make a code change, see that be reflected in their application in just a few seconds and deploy with confidence within hours. And so our goal is to actually be able to take that state of the art metric and democratize that actually bring it to as many of our customers as we possibly can. >>You mentioned supply chain earlier in securing that. What are you guys doing with Docker and how to make that partnership better with registries? Is there any update there in terms of the container registry on Azure? >>Yeah, I mean, you know, we, we we have definitely seen recent events and and it almost seems like a never ending attacks that that you know, increasingly are getting more and more focused on developer watering holes is how we think about it. Kind of developers being a primary target um for these malicious hackers. And so what it's more important than ever that every developer um and Microsoft especially uh really take security extraordinarily seriously. Our engineers are working around the clock to make sure that we are responding to every security incident that we hear about and partnering with our customers to make sure that we're supporting them as well. One of the things that we announced earlier this week at Microsoft build is that we've actually taken, get have actions and we've now integrated that into the Azure Security Center. And so what this means is that, you know, we can now do things like scan for vulnerabilities. Um look at things like who is logging in, where things like that and actually have that be tracked in the Azure security center so that not just your developers get that notification but also your I. T. Operations. Um In terms of the partnership with dR you know, this is actually an ongoing partnership to make sure that we can provide more guidance to developers to make sure that they are following best practices like pulling from a private registry like Docker hub or at your container registry. So I expect that as time goes on will continue to more in partnership in this space >>and that's going to give a lot of confidence. Actually, productivity wise is going to be a big help for developers. Great stuff is always good, good progress. They're moving the needle. >>Last time we >>spoke we talked about tools and setting Azure as the doctor context duty tooling updates here at dot com this year. That's notable. >>Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there's one major thing that we've been working on which has a big dependency on docker is get help. Code space is now one of the biggest pain points that developers have is setting up a new DEV box, which they often have to do when they are on boarding a new employee or when they're starting a new project or even if they're just kicking the tires on a new technology that they want to be able to evaluate and sometimes creating a developer environment can actually take hours um and especially when you're trying to create a developer environment that matches somebody else's developer environment that can take like a half a day and you can spend all of your time just debugging the differences in environment variables, for example, um, containers actually makes that much easier. So what you can do with this, this services, you can actually create death environment spun up in the cloud and you can access it in seconds and you get from there are working coding environment and a runtime environment and this is repeatable via containers. So it means that there's no inadvertent differences introduced by each DEV. And you might be interested to know that underneath this is actually using Docker files and dr composed to orchestrate the debits and the runtime bits for a whole bunch of different stacks. And so this is something that we're actually working on in collaboration with the with the doctor team to have a common the animal format. And in fact this week we actually introduced a couple of app templates so that everybody can see this all in action. So if you check out a ca dot m s forward slash app template, you can see this in action yourself. >>You guys have always had such a strong developer community and one thing I love about cloud as it brings more agility, as we always talk about. But when you start to see the enterprise grow into, the direction is going now, it's almost like the developer communities are emerging, it's no longer about all the Lennox folks here and the dot net folks there, you've got windows, you've got cloud, >>it's almost >>the the the solidification of everyone kind of coming together. Um and visual studio, for instance, last year, I think you were talking about that to having to be interrogated dr composed, et cetera. >>How do you see >>this melting pot emerging? Because at the end of the day, you pick the language you love and you got devops, which is infrastructure as code doesn't matter. So give us your take on where we are with that whole progress of of making that happen. >>Well, I mean I definitely think that, you know, developer environments and and kind of, you know, our approach to them don't need to be as dogmatic as they've been in the past. I really think that, you know, you can pick the right tool and language and stand developer stack for your team, for your experience and you can be productive and that's really our goal. And Microsoft is to make sure that we have tools for every developer and every team so that they can build any app that they want to want to create. Even if that means that they're actually going to end up ultimately deploying that not to our cloud, they're going to end up deploying it to AWS or another another competitive cloud. And so, you know, there's a lot of things that we've been doing to make that really much easier. We have integrated container tools in visual studio and visual studio code and better cli integrations like with the doctor context that we had talked about a little bit earlier. We continue to try to make it easier to build applications that are targeting containers and then once you create those containers it's much easier to take it to another environment. One of the examples of this kind of work is now that we have WsL and the Windows subsystem for Lennox. This makes it a lot easier for developers who prefer a Windows operating system as their environment and maybe some tools like Visual Studio that run on Windows, but they can still target Lennox with as their production environment without any impedance mismatch. They can actually be as productive as they would be if they had a Linux box as their Os >>I noticed on this session, I got to call this out. I want to get your reaction to it interesting. Selection of Microsoft talks, the container based development. Visual studio code is one that's where you're going to show some some some container action going on with note and Visual Studio code. And then you get the machine learning with Azure uh containers in the V. S. Code. Interesting how you got, you know, containers with V. S. And now you've got machine learning. What does that tell the world about where Microsoft's at? Because in a way you got the cutting edge container management on one side with the doctor integration. Now you get the machine learning which everyone's talking about shifting, left more automation. Why are these sessions so important? Why should people attend? And what's the what's the bottom line? >>Well, like I said, like containers basically empower developer productivity. Um that's what creates the reputable environments, that's what allows us to make sure that, you know, we're productive as soon as we possibly can be with any text act that we want to be able to target. Um and so that's kind of almost the ecosystem play. Um it's how every developer can contribute to the success of others and we can amor ties the kinds of work that we do to set up an environment. So that's what I would say about the container based development that we're doing with both visual studio and visual studio code. Um in terms of the machine learning development, uh you know, the number of machine learning developers in the world is relatively small, but it's growing and it's obviously a very important set of developers because to train a machine learning uh to train an ml model, it actually requires a significant amount of compute resources, and so that's a perfect opportunity to bring in the research that are in a public cloud. Um What's actually really interesting about that particular develop developer stack is that it commonly runs on things like python. And for those of you who have developed in python, you know, just how difficult it is to actually set up a python environment with the right interpreter, with the right run time, with the right libraries that can actually get going super quickly, um and you can be productive as a developer. And so it's actually one of the hardest, most challenging developer stacks to actually set up. And so this allows you to become a machine learning developer without having to spend all of your time just setting up the python runtime environment. >>Yeah, it's a nice, nice little call out on python, it's a double edged sword. It's easier to sling code around on one hand, when you start getting working then you gotta it gets complicated can get well. Um Well the great, great call out there on the island, but good, good, good project. Let me get your thoughts on this other tool that you guys are talking about project tie. Uh This is interesting because this is a trend that we're seeing a lot of conversations here on the cube about around more too many control planes. Too many services. You know, I no longer have that monolithic application. I got micro micro applications with microservices. What the hell is going on with my services? >>Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, containers brought an incredible amount of productivity in terms of having repeatable environments, both for dev environments, which we talked about a lot on this interview already, but also obviously in production and test environments. Super important. Um and with that a lot of times comes the microservices architecture that we're also moving to and the way that I view it is the microservices architecture is actually accompanied by businesses being more focused on the value that they can actually deliver to customers. And so they're trying to kind of create separations of concerns in terms of the different services that they're offering, so they can actually version and and kind of, you know, actually improve each of these services independently. But what happens when you start to have many microservices working together in a SAS or in some kind of aggregate um service environment or kind of application environment is it starts to get unwieldy, it's really hard to make it so that one micro service can actually address another micro service. They can pass information back and forth. And you know what used to be maybe easy if you were just building a client server application because, you know, within the server tear all of your code was basically contained in the same runtime environment. That's no longer the case when every microservices actually running inside of its own container. So the question is, how can we improve program ability by making it easier for one micro service that's being used in an application environment, be to be able to access another another service and kind of all of that context. Um and so, you know, you want to be able to access the service is the the api endpoint, the containers, the ingress is everything, make everything work together as though it felt just as easy as as um you know, server application development. Um And so what this means as well is that you also oftentimes need to get all of these different containers running at the same time and that can actually be a challenge in the developer and test loop as well. So what project tie does is it improves the program ability and it actually allows you to just write a command like thai run so that you can actually in stan she ate all of these containers and get them up and running and basically deploy and run your application in that environment and ultimately make the dev testing or loop much faster >>than productivity gain. Right. They're making it simple to stand up. Great, great stuff. Let me ask you a question as we kind of wrap down here for the folks here at Dakar Con, are >>there any >>special things you'd like to talk about the development you think are important for the developers here within this space? It's very dynamic. A lot of change happening in a good way. Um, but >>sometimes it's hard to keep >>track of all the cool stuff happening. Could you take a minute to, to share your thoughts on what you think are the most important develops developments in this space? That that might be interesting to ducker con attendees. >>I think the most important things are to recognize that developer environments are moving to containerized uh, environments themselves so that they can be repeated, they can be shared, the work, configuring them can be amortized across many developers. That's important thing. Number one important thing. Number two is it doesn't matter as much what operating system you're running as your chrome, you know, desktop. What matters is ultimately the production environment that you're targeting. And so I think now we're in a world where all of those things can be mixed and matched together. Um and then I think the next thing is how can we actually improve microservices, uh programming development together um so that it's easier to be able to target multiple micro services that are working in aggregate uh to create a single service experience or a single application. And how do we improve the program ability for that? >>You know, you guys have been great supporters of DACA and the community and open source and software developers as they transform and become quite frankly the superheroes for the transformation, which is re factoring businesses. So this has been a big thing. I'd love to get your thoughts on how this is all coming together inside Microsoft, you've got your division, you get the developer division, you got GIT hub, got Azure. Um, and then just historically, and he put this up last year army of an ecosystem. People who have been contributing encoding with Microsoft and the partners for many, many decades. >>Yes. The >>heart Microsoft now, how's it all working? What's the news? I get Lincoln, Lincoln, but there's no yet developer model there yet, but probably is soon. >>Um Yeah, I mean, I think that's a pretty broad question, but in some ways I think it's interesting to put it in the context of Microsoft's history. You know, I think when I think back to the beginning of my career, it was kind of a one stack shop, you know, we was all about dot net and you know, of course we want to dot net to be the best developer environment that it can possibly be. We still actually want that. We still want that need to be the most productive developer environment. It could we could possibly build. Um but at the same time, I think we have to recognize that not all developers or dot net developers and we want to make sure that Azure is the most productive cloud for developers and so to do that, we have to make sure that we're building fantastic tools and platforms to host java applications, javascript applications, no Js applications, python applications, all of those things, you know, all of these developers in the world, we want to make sure it can be productive on our tools and our platforms and so, you know, I think that's really kind of the key of you know what you're speaking of because you know, when I think about the partnership that I have with the GIT hub team or with the Azure team or with the Azure Machine learning team or the Lincoln team, um A lot of it actually comes down to helping empower developers, improving their productivity, helping them find new developers to collaborate with, um making sure that they can do that securely and confidently and they can basically respond to their customers as quickly as they possibly can. Um and when, when we think about partnering inside of Microsoft with folks like linkedin or office as an example, a lot of our partnership with them actually comes down to improving their colleagues efficiency. We build the developer tools that office and lengthen are built on top of and so every once in a while we will make an improvement that has, you know, 5% here, 3% there and it turns into an incredible amount of impact in terms of operations, costs for running these services. >>It's interesting. You mentioned earlier, I think there's a time now we're living in a time where you don't have to be dogmatic anymore, you can pick what you like and go with it. Also that you also mentioned just now this idea of distributed applications, distributed computing. You know, distributed applications and microservices go really well together. Especially with doctor. >>Can you share >>your thoughts on the framework that you guys released called Dapper? >>Yeah, yeah. We recently released Dapper. It's called D A P R. You can look it up on GIT hub and it's a programming model for common microservices pattern, two common microservices patterns that make it really easy and automatic to create those kinds of microservices. So you can choose to work with your favorite state stores or databases or pub sub components and get things like cloud events for free. You can choose either http or g R B C so that you can get mesh capabilities like service discovery and re tries and you can bring your own secret store and easily be able to call it from any environment variable. It's also like I was talking about earlier, multi lingual. Um so you don't need to embrace dot net, for example, as you're programming language to be able to benefit from Dapper, it actually supports many programming languages and Dapper itself is actually written and go. Um and so, you know, all developers can benefit from something like Dapper to make it easier to create microservices applications. >>I mean, always great to have you on great update. Take a minute to give an update on what's going on with your division. I know you had to build conference this week. V. S has got the new preview title. We just talked about what are the things you want to get to plug in for? Take a minute to get to plug in for what you're working on, your goals, your objectives hiring, give us the update. >>Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, we we built integrated container tools in visual studio uh and the Doctor extension and Visual Studio code and cli extensions. Uh and you know, even in this most recent release of our Visual Studio product, Visual Studio 16 10, we added some features to make it easier to use DR composed better. So one of the examples of this is that you can actually have uh Oftentimes you need to be able to use multiple doctor composed files together so that you can actually configure various different container environments for a single single application. But it's hard sometimes to create the right Yeah. My file so that you can actually invoke it and invoke the the container and the micro services that you need. And so what this allows you to do is to actually have just a menu of the different doctor composed files so that you can select the runtime and test environment that you need for the subset of the portion of the application that you're working on at the end of the day. This is always about developer productivity. You know, like I said, every keystroke matters. Um and we want to make sure that you as a developer can focus on the code that only you can Right. >>Amanda Silver, corporate vice president product development division of Microsoft. Always great to see you and chat with you remotely soon. We'll be back in in real life with real events soon as we come out of the pandemic and thanks for sharing your insight and congratulations on your success this year and and congratulations on your announcement here at Dakar Gone. >>Thank you so much for having me. >>Okay Cube coverage for Dunkirk on 2021. I'm John for your host of the Cube. Thanks for watching. Mhm