(upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back to theCUBE's cover of DockerCon Mainstage, I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here with Shubha Rao, Senior Manager, Product Manager at AWS, in the container services. Shubha, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Hi, thank you very much for having me, excited to be here. >> So obviously, we're doing a lot of coverage with AWS recently, on containers, cloud native, microservices and we see you guys always at the events. But tell me about what your role is in the organization? >> Yeah, so I lead the product management and developer advocacy team, in the AWS Container Services group, where we focus on elastic containers. And what I mean by elastic containers, is that, all the AWS opinionated, out of the box solutions that we have for you, like, you know, ECS and App Runner and Elastic BeanStalk. So where we bring in our services in a way that integrates with the AWS ecosystem. And, you know, my team manages the product management and speaking to customers and developers like you all, to understand how we can improve our services for you to use it more seamlessly. >> So, I mean, I know AWS has a lot of services tha t have containers involved with them and it's a lot of integration within the cloud. Amazon's as cloud native as you're going to get at AWS. If I was a new customer, where do I start with containers if you had to give me advice? And then, where I have a nice roadmap to grow within AWS. >> Yeah, no, that's a great question a lot of customers ask us this. We recommend that the customers choose whatever is the best fit for their application needs and for their operational flexibilities. So, if you have an application which you can use, pretty abstract and like end to end managed by AWS service, we recommend that you start at the highest level of abstraction that's okay to use for your application. And that means something like App Runner, where you can bring in a web application and run it like end to end. And if there are things that you want to control and tweak, then you know, we have services like ECS, where you get control and you get flexibility to tweak it to your needs. Be it needs of like, integrations or running your own agents and running your own partner solutions or even customizing how it scales and all the, you know, characteristics related to it. And of course we have, if there are a lot of our customers also run kubernetes, so that is a requirement for you, if your apps are already packaged to run, you know, easily with the kubernetes ecosystem, then we have, yes, for you. So, like application needs, the operational, how much of the operations do you want us to handle? Or how much of it do you want to actually have control over. And with all that, like the highest level of abstraction so that we can do the work on your behalf, which is the goal of AWS. >> Yeah, well, we always hear that all that heavy lifting, undifferentiated heavy lifting, you guys handle all that. Since you're in product management, I have to ask the question 'cause you guys have a little bit longer view, as you have think about what's on the roadmap. What type of customer trends are you seeing in container services? >> We see a lot of trends about customers who want to have the plugability for their, you know, services of choice. And our EKS offerings actually help in that. And we see customers who want an opinionated, you know, give me an out of the box solution, rather than building blocks. And ECS brings you that experience. The new strengths that we are seeing is that a lot of our customer workloads are also on their data centers and in their on-prem like environments. Be it branch offices or data centers or like, you know, other areas. And so we've recently launched the, anywhere offerings for you. So, ECS anywhere, brings you an experience for letting your workloads run and management that you control, where we manage the scaling and orchestration and the whole like, you know, monitoring and troubleshooting aspects of it. Which is the new trend, which seems to be something that our customers use as a way to migrate their applications to the cloud in the long term or just to get, you know, the same experience and the same, like, constructs that they're familiar with, come onto their data centers and their environments. >> You know, Shubha, we hear a lot about containers. It's becoming standard in the enterprise now, mainstream. But customers, when we talk to them, they kind of have this evolution, they start with containers and they realize how great it is and they become container full, right. And then you start to see kind of, them trying to evolve to the next level. And then you start to see EKS come into the equation. We see that in cloud native. Is EKS a container? Or is it a service? How does that work with everything? >> So EKS is a Amazon managed service, container service, where we do the operational set up, you know, upgrades and other things for the customer on their behalf. So basically, you get the same communities APIs that you get to use for your application but we handle a little bit of the integrations and the operations selected to keeping it up and running with high availability. in a way that actually meets your needs for the applications. >> And more and more people are dipping their toe in the water, as we say, with containers. What are some of the things you've seen customers do when they jump in and start implementing that kind of phase one containers? Also, there's a lot of head room beyond that, as you mentioned. What's the first couple steps that they take? They jump in,, is it a learning process? Is it serverless? Where is the connection points all come together? >> Great, so, I want to say that, no one solution that we have, fits all needs. Like, it's not the best case, best thing for all your use cases, and not for all of your applications. So, how it all comes together is that, AWS gives you a ecosystem of tools and capabilities. Some customers want to really build the, you know, castle themselves with each of the Lego block and some customers want it to be a ready made thing. And I want, you know, one of the things that I speak to customers about is, is to rethink which of the knobs and controls do they really need to have, you know because none of the services we have is a one way door. Like, there is always flexibility and, you know ability to move from one service to the other. So, my recommendation is to always like, start with things where Amazon handles many of the heavy lifting, you know, operations for you. And that means starting with something like, serverless offerings, where, like, for example, with Lambda and Forget, we manage the host, we manage the patching, we manage the monitoring. And that would be a great place for you to use ECS offering and, you know, basically get an end to end experience in a couple of days. And over time, if you have more needs, if you have more control, you know, if you want to bring in your own agents and whatever else you have, the option to use your own EC2 Instances or to take it to other, like, you know, parts of the AWS ecosystem, where you want to, you know, tweak it to your needs. >> Well, we're seeing a lot of great traction here at DockerCon. And all the momentum around containers. And then you're starting to get into trust and security supply chain, as open source becomes more exponentially in growth, it's growing like crazy, which is a great thing. So what can we expect to see from your team in the coming months, as this rolls forward? It's not going away anytime soon. It's going to be integrated and keep on scaling. What do we expect from the team in the next month or so? Couple of months. >> Security and, you know, is our number one job. So you will continue to see more and more features, capabilities and integrations, to ensure that your workloads are secure. Availability and scaling are the things that we do, you know, as keep the lights on. So, you should expect to see all of our services growing to make it like, more user friendly, easier, you know, simpler ways to get the whole availability and scaling to your needs, better. And then like, you know, very specifically, I want to touch on a few services. So App Runner, today we have support for public facing web services. You can expect that the number of use cases that you can meet with app runner is going to increase over time. You want to invest into making it AWS end to end workflow experience for our customers because, that's the easiest journey to the cloud. And we don't want you to actually wait for months and years to actually leverage the benefits of what AWS provides. ECS, we've already launched our, like, you know, Forget and Anywhere, to bring you more flexibility in terms of easier networking capabilities, more granular controls in deployment and more controls to actually help you plug in your preferred, you know, solution ties. And in EKS, we are going to continue to keep the communities, you know, versions and, you know, bring simpler experiences for you. >> A lot of nice growth there, containers, EKS, a lot more goodness in the cloud, obviously. We have 30 seconds left. Tell us what you're most excited about personally. And what should the developers pay attention to in this conference around containers and AWS? >> I would say that AWS has a lot of offerings but, you know, speak to us, like, come to us with your questions or, you know, anything that you have, like in terms of feature requests. We are very, very eager and happy to speak to you all. You know, you can engage with us on the container store map, which is on GitHub. Or you can find, you know, many of us in events like this, AWS Summits and, you know, DockerCon and many of the other meetups. Or find us on LinkedIn, we're always happy to chat. >> Yeah, always open, open source. Open source meets cloud scale, meets commercialization. All happening, all great stuff. Shubha, thank you for coming on theCUBE. Thanks for sharing. We'll send it back now to the DockerCon Mainstage. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>mhm Yes, everyone, welcome back to the cubes coverage of dr khan 2021. I'm john for your host of the cube. Got a great segment here. One of the big supporters and open source amazon web services returning back second year. Dr khan virtual Deepak Singh, vice president of the compute services at AWS Deepak, Great to see you. Thanks for coming back on remotely again soon. We'll be in real life. Reinvent is going to be in person, we'll be there. Good to see you. >>Good to see you too, john it's always good to do these. I don't know how how often I've been at the cube now, but it's great every single time your >>legend and getting on there, a lot of important things to discuss your in one of the most important areas in the technology industry right now and that is at the confluence of cloud scale and modern development applications as they shift towards as Andy Jassy says, the new guard, right. It's been happening. You guys have been a big proponent of open source and enabling open source is a service creating business models for companies. But more importantly, you guys are powering, making it easier for folks to use software. And doctor has been a big relationship for you. Could you take a minute to first talk about the doctor, a W S relationship and your involvement and what you're doing? >>Yeah, actually it goes back a long way. Uh you know, Justin, we announced PCS had reinvented 2014 and PCS at that time was very much managed orchestration service on top of DACA at that time. I think it was the first really big one out there from a cloud provider. And since then, of course, the world has evolved quite a bit and relationship with DR has evolved a lot. The thing I'd like to talk to is something that we announced that Dr last year, I don't remember if I talked about it on the cube at that time. But last year we started working with DR on how can we go from doctor Run, which customers love or DR desktop, which customers love and make it easy for people to run containers on pcs and Fergie. Uh so most new customers running containers and AWS today start with this Yes and party or half of them and we wanted to make it very easy for them to start with where they are on the laptop which is often bucket to stop and have running services the native US. So we started working with DR and that that collaboration has been very successful. We want to keep you look forward to continuing to work on evolving that where you can use Docker compose doctor, desktop, doctor run the fuel that darker customers used and the labour grand production services on the end of your side, which is the part that we've got that on. So I think that's one area where we work really well together. Uh, the other area where I think the two companies continue to work well together. It's open source in general as some of, you know, AWS has a very strong commitment to contain a. D uh, EKS our community service is moving towards community. Forget it actually runs all on community today and uh, we collaborate dr Rhonda on the Ocr specification because, you know, the Oc I am expect is becoming the de facto packaging format idea. W S. This morning we launched yesterday, we launched a service called Opera. And the main expected input for opera is an Ocr image are being in this Atlanta as well, where those ci images now a way of packaging for lambda. And I think the last one I like to call out and it has been an amazing partnership and it's an area where most people don't pay attention is amid signing. Uh, there's a project called Notary. We do the second version of the Notary Spec for remit signing and AWS Docker and a couple of other companies have been working very closely together on bringing that uh, you know, finalizing no tv too, so that at least in our case we can start building services for our customers on top of that. You know, it's it's a great relationship and I expect to see it continue. >>Well, I think one of the themes this year is developer experience. So good. Good call out there in the new announcements on the tools you have and software because that seems to be a great developer integration with Docker question I have for you is how should the customers think about things like E C. S and versus E K. S. App, Runner lambda uh for kind of running their containers. How do they understand the difference is, what's there? What's the, what's the thought process there? What's >>that? It's a good question actually been announced after. And I think there was one of the questions I started getting on twitter. You know, let's start at the very beginning. Anyone can pick up a Docker container and run it on easy to today. You can run it on easy to, we can run a light sail, but doc around works just fine. It's the limits machine. Then people want to do more complex things. They want to run large scale orchestrated services. They won't run their entire business and containers. We have customers will do that today. Uh, you know, you have people like Vanguard who runs a significant portion of the infrastructure on pcs frg or you have to elope with the heavy user of chaos, our community service. So in general, if you're running large scale systems, you're building your platforms, you're most likely to use the csny Chaos. Um, if you come from a community's background, you're, you're running communities on prem or you want the flexibility and control the communities gives you, you're gonna end up with the chaos. That's what we see our customers doing. If you just want to run containers, you want to use AWS to its fullest extent where you want the continue a P I to be part of the W A S A P. I said then you pick is yes. And I think one of the reasons you see so many customers start with the CSN, Forget is with forget to get the significant ease of use from an operational standpoint. And we see many start ups and you know, enterprises, especially security focus enterprises leaning towards farming. But there's a class of customers that doesn't want to think about orchestration that just wants. Here's my code, here's my container image just run my service for me and that's when things like happen, I can come and that's one of the reasons we launched it. Land is a little bit different. Lambda is a unique service. You buy into an event driven architecture. If you do that, then you can figure our application into this. That's they should start its magic. Uh, the container part, there is what land announced agreement where they now support containers, packaging. So instead of zip files, you can package up your functions as containers. Then lambda will run them for you. The advantage it gives you with all the tooling that you built, that you have to build your containers now works the land as well. So I won't call and a container orchestration service in the same sense of the CSC cso Afrin are but it definitely allows the container image format as a standard packaging format. I think that's the sort of universal common theme that you find across AWS at this point of time. >>You know, one of the things that we're observing at this at this event here is a lot of developers Coop con and Lennox foundations. A lot of operators to kubernetes hits that. But here's developers. And the thing is I want to ease of use, simplicity experience, but also I want the innovation. Yeah, I want all of it. When I ask you what is amazon bring to the table for the new equation, what would you say? >>Yeah, I mean for me it's always you've probably heard me say this 100 times. Many 1000 times. It's foggy fog. It's unique to us. It takes a lot of what we have learned about operating infrastructure scale. The question we asked ourselves, you know, in many ways we talk about forget even before belong pcs but we have to learn on what it meant and what customers really wanted. But the idea was when you are running clusters of instances of machines to run containers on, you have to start thinking about a lot of things that in some ways VMS but BMS in the car were taken away capacity. What kind of infrastructure to run it on? Should have been touched. Should have not been back. You know, where is my container running? Those are things. They suddenly started having to think about those kind of backwards almost. So the idea was how can we make your containerized bundles? So TCS task or community is part of the thing that you talk to and that is the main unit that you operate on. That is the unit that you get built on and meet it on. That's where Forget comes in and it allows us to do many interesting things. We've effectively changed the engine of forget since we've launched it. Uh, we run it on ec two instances and we run it on fire cracker. Uh, we have changed the forget agent architecture. We've made a lot of underneath the hood, uh, changes that even take the take advantage of the broader innovation, the rate of us, We did a whole bunch more to launch acronym trans on top of family customers don't have to think about it. They don't have to worry about it. It happens underneath the hood. It's always your engine as as you go along and it takes away all the operational pain of managing clusters of running into picking which instances to use to getting out, trying to figure out how to bend back and get efficiency. That becomes our problem. So, you know, that is an area where you should expect to see a Stuart done more. It's becoming the fabric of so many things that eight of us now. Uh, it's, you know, in some ways we're just talking a lot more to do. >>Yeah. And it's a really good time. A lot more wave of developers coming in. One of the things that we've been reporting on on Silicon England cube with our cute videos is more developers keep on coming on, more people coming in and contributing to the open source community. Even end users, not just the normal awesome hyper scholars you're talking about like classic, I call main street enterprises. So two things I want to ask you on the customer side because you have kind of to customers, you have the community that open source community and you have enterprise customers that want to make it easier. What are you seeing and hearing from customers? I know you guys work backwards from the customer. So I got to ask you work backwards from the community and work backwards from the enterprise customer. What's going on in their environment? What's the key trends that they're riding? What's the big challenges? What's the big opportunities that they're facing and saying for the community? >>Yeah, I start with the enterprise. That's almost an easier answer. Which is, you know, we're seeing increasingly enterprises moving into the cloud wholesale. Like in some ways you could argue that the pandemic has just accelerated it, but we have started seeing that before. Uh they want to move to the cloud and adult modern best practices. Uh If you see my talk agreement last few years, I've talked about modernization and all the aspects of modernization, and that's 90% of our conversation with enterprises, I've walked into a meeting supposedly to talk about containers, whatever half a conversation is spent on. How does an organization modernize? What does an organization need to do to modernize and containers and serverless play a pretty important part in it, because it gives them an opportunity to step away from the shackles of sort of fixed infrastructure and the methods and approaches that built in. But equally, we are talking about C I C. D, you know, fully automated deployments. What does it mean for developers to run their own services? What are the child, how do you monitor and uh, instrument uh, your services? How do you do observe ability in the modern world? So those are the challenges that enterprises are going towards, and you're spending a ton of time helping them there. But many of them are still running infrastructure on premises. So, you know, we have outpost for them. Uh, you know, just last week, you're talking to a bunch of our customers and they have lots of interesting ideas and things that they want to do without both, but many of them also have their own infrastructure and that's where something like UCS anywhere came from, which is hey, you like using Pcs in the cloud, You like having the safety i that just orchestrates containers for you. It does it on on his in an AWS region. It will do it in an outpost. It'll do it on wavelength, it'll do it on local zone. How about we allow you to do it on whatever infrastructure you bring to us. Uh you want to bring a raspberry pi, you can do that. You want to bring your on premises data center infrastructure, we can do that or a point of sale device, as long as you can get the agent running and you can connect to an AWS region, even though it's okay to lose connectivity every now and then. We can orchestrate a container for you over there and, you know, the same customer that likes the ease of use of Vcs. And the simplicity really resonated with that message really resonates with them. So I think where we are today with the enterprise is we've got some really good solutions for you in eight of us and we are now allowing you to take those a. P. I. S and then launch containers wherever you want to run them, whether it's the edge or whether it's your own data center. I think that's a big part of where the enterprise is going. But by and large, I think yes, a lot of them are still making that change from running infrastructure and applications the way they used to do a modern sort of, if you want to use the word cloud native way and we're helping them a lot. We've done, the community is interesting. They want to be more participatory. Uh that's where things like co pilot comes from. God, honestly, the best thing we've ever done in my order is probably are open road maps where the community can go into the road map and engage with us over there, whether it's an open source project or just trying to tell us what the feature is and how they would like to see it. It's a great engagement and you know, it's not us a lot. It's helped us prioritize correctly and think about what we want to do next. So yeah, I think that's, that >>must be very hard to do for opening up the kimono on the road map because normally that's the crown jewels and its secretive and you know, and um, now it's all out in the open. I think that is a really interesting, um, experiment and what's your reaction to that? What's been the feedback on the road map peace? Because I mean, I definitely want to see, uh, >>we do it pretty much for every service in my organization and we've been doing it now for three years. So years forget, I think about three years and it's been great. Now we are very we are very upfront, which is security and availability. Our job 000 and you know, 100 times out of 100 at altitudes between a new feature and helping our customers be available and safe. We'll do that. And this is why we don't put dates in that we just tell you directionally where we are and what we are prioritizing Uh, there every now and then we'll put something in there that, you know, well not choose not to put a feature in there because we want to keep it secret until it launches. But for the most part, 99% of our own myself there and people engaged with it. And it's not proven to be a problem because you've also been very responsible with how we manage and be very transparent on whether we can commit to something or not. And I think that's not. >>I gotta ask you on as a leader uh threaded leader on this group. Open source is super important, as you know, and you continue to do it from under years. How are you investing in the future? What's your plan? Uh plans for your team, the industry actually very inclusive, Which is very cool. It's gonna resonate well, what's the plans? Give us some details on what you're investing in, what your priorities? What's your first principles? >>Yeah, So it goes in many ways, one when I I also have the luxury also on the amazon open source program office. So, you know, I get the chance to my team, rather not me help amazon engineers participate in open source. That that's the team that helps create the tools for them, makes it easy for them to contribute, creates, you know, manages all the licenses, etcetera. I'll give you a simple example, you know, in there, just think of the cr credential helper that was written by one of our engineers and he kind of distorted because he felt it was something that we needed to do. And we made it open source in general, in in many of our teams. The first question we asked is should something the open why is this thing not open source, especially if it's a utility or some piece of software that runs along with services. So they'll step one. But we've done some big things also, I, you know, a couple of years ago we launched Lennox operating system called bottle Rocket. And right from the beginning it was very clear to us that bottle Rocket was two things. It was both in AWS product. But first it was an open source project. We've already learned a little bit from what we've done at Firecracker. But making bottle rocket and open source operating system is very important. Anyone can take part of Rocket the open source to build tooling. You can run it whatever you want. If you want to take part of Rocket and build a version and manage it for another provider. For another provider wants to do it, go for it. There's nothing stopping you from doing that. So you'll see us do a lot there. Obviously there's multiple areas. You've seen WS investing on the open source side. But to me, the winds come from when engineers can participate in small things, released little helpers or get contributions from outside. I think that's where we're still, we can always have that. We're going to continue to strive to make it better and easier. And uh, you know, I said, I have, you know, me and my team, we have an opportunity to help their inside the company and we continue to do so. But that's what gets me excited. >>Yeah, that's great stuff. And congratulations on investing in the community, really enjoys it and I know it moves the needle for the industry. Deepak, I gotta ask you why I got you here. Dr khan obviously, developers, what's the most important story that they should be paying attention to as a developer because of what's going on shift left for security day two operations also known as a I ops getups, whatever you wanna call it, you know, ongoing, you get server lists, you got land. I mean, all kinds of great things are going on. You mentioned Fargate, >>um >>what should they be paying attention to that's going to really help their life, both innovation wise and just the quality of life. >>Yeah, I would say look at, you know, in the end it is very easy developers in particular, I want to build the buildings and it's very easy to get tempted to try and get learn everything about something. You have access to all the bells and whistles and knobs, but in reality, if you want to run things you want to, you want to focus on what's important, the business application, that and you the application. And I think a lot of what I'll tell developers and I think it's a lot of where the industry is going is we have built a really solid foundation, whether it's humanity, so you CSN forget or you know, continue industries out there. We have very solid foundation that, you know, our customers and develop a goal of the world can use to build upon. But increasingly, and you know, they are going to provide tools that sort of take that wrap them up and providing a nice package solution After another great example, our collaboration, the doctor around Dr desktop are a great example where we get all the mark focus on the application and build on top of that and you can get so much done. I think that's one trend. You'll see more and more. Those things are no longer toys, their production grade systems that you can build real world applications on, even though they're so easy to use. The second thing I would add to that is uh, get uh, it is, you know, you can give it whatever name you want. There's uh, there's nuances there, but I actually think get up is the way people should be running the infrastructure, my virus in my personal, you know, it's something that we believe a lot in homicide as hard as you go towards immutable infrastructure, infrastructure, automation, we can get off plays a significant role. I think developers naturally gravitate towards it. And if you want to live in a world where development and operations are tightly linked, I think it after the huge role to play in that it's actually a big part of how we're planning to do things like yes, anywhere, for example, a significant player and that it would be a proton. I think get up will be a significant in the future of proton as well. So I think that's the other trend. If you wanted to pick a trend that people should pay attention. That's what I believe in a lot. >>Well you're an expert. So I want to get you a quick definition. What is get Ops, how would you define it? Because that's a big trend. What does it, what does that mean? >>Electricity will probably shoot me for getting this wrong. I tell you how I think about it. Which is, you know, in many cases, um, you when you're doing deployments are pushing a deployment getups is more of a full deployment. When you are pushing code to get depository, you have a system that knows that the event has happened and then pulls from there and triggers the thing as opposed to you telling it take I have this new piece of code now go deployed everywhere. So to me, the biggest changes that Two parts one is it's more for full mechanism where you're pulling because something has changed. So it needs systems like container orchestrators to keep them, you know, to keep them in sync. And the second part of the natural natural evolution of infrastructure score, which is basically everything is called the figures code. Infrastructure as code, code is code and everything is getting stored in that software repo and the software repo becomes your store of record and drives everything. Uh So for a glass of customers, that's going to be a pretty big deal. >>Yeah, when you're checking in code, that's again, it's like a compiler for the compiler, a container for the container, you've got things for each other. Automation is ultimately what we're talking about here. And that's to me where machine learning kicks in. So again, having this open source foundational fabric, as you said, forget out the muck or the undifferentiated heavy lifting. This is what we're talking about automation, isn't it? Deepak? >>Yes. I mean I said uh one thing where we hang our hat on is there's such good stuff out there in the world which we like to contribute to, but the thing we like to hang our hat on is how do you run this? How do you do it this in ways that you can uniquely bring capabilities to customers where there's things like nitro or things are nitro open stuff. Well, the fact that we have built up this operational infrastructure over the last in a decade plus or in the container space over the last seven years where we really really know how to run these things at scale and have made all the investments to make it easy to do. So that's that's where we have hanger hard keeping people safe, helping them only available applications, their new startup, that just completely takes off in over the weekend. For whatever reason, because, you know, you're the next hot thing on twitter and our goal is to support you whether you are, you know, uh enterprise that's moving from the main train or you are the next hot startup, that's you know, growing virally and uh, you know, we've done a lot to build systems help both sides and yeah, it's >>interesting if you sing about open source where it's come from, I mean I remember that base wouldn't open source wasn't open, I would be peddling software, there's a free copy of Linux, UNIX um in college and now it's all free. But I mean just what's changed now. It used to be just free software, download software. You got it now, it's a service. Service now can be monetized quickly. And what you guys are offering with AWS and cloud scale is you've done all these things as I don't have to have a developer. I get the benefits of the scale, I can bring my open source code to the table, make it a service integrated in with other services and be the next snowflake, be the next, you know, a company that could scale. And that is that's the that's the innovation, right? That's the this is a new phenomenon. So it also changes the business model. >>Yeah, actually you're you're quite right. Actually, I I like one more thing to it. But you look at how a lot of enterprises use containers today. Most of them are using something like this year, Symphony or GS to build an internal developer platform and internal developer portal. And then the question then becomes this hard to scale this modern and development practices to an entire organization. What is your big bank that's been around as thousands and thousands of ID stuff That may not all be experts are running communities running container is when you scale it out different systems that proton come into play. That was actually the inspiration is how do you help an organization where they're building these developer Portholes and developer infrastructure, developer platforms, How do you make it easy for them to build it? Be almost use it as a way to get these modern practices into the hands of all the business units, where they may not have the time to become experts at the modern ways of running infrastructure because they're busy doing other things. And I think you'll see the a lot more happening that space that's not happening in the open source community. There's proton, there's a bunch of interesting things happening here and be interesting to see how that evolves. >>And also, you know, the communal, communal aspect of not just writing code together, but succeeding, right, building something. I mean, that's when you start to see the commercial meets open kind of ethos of communal activity of working together and sharing a big part of this year's. Dakar Con is sharing not just running and shipping code but sharing. >>Yeah, I mean if you think about it uh Dockers original value was you build run and shit right? You use the same code to build it, you use the same code to ship it, the same sort of infrastructure interface and then you run it and that, you know, the fact that the doctor images such a wonderfully shareable entity uh that can run every girl is such a powerful and it's called the Ci Image. Now I still call him Dr images because it's just easier. But that to me like that is a big deal and I think it's becoming and become an even bigger deal over the years. I came from something before, Amazon has to work in The sciences and bioinformatics and you know, the ability to share codeshare dependencies, package all of that up in a container image is a big deal. It's what got me one of the reasons I got fascinated with container 78 years ago. So it will be interesting to see where all of systems. >>It's great, great stuff. Great success. And congratulations. Deepak, Great to always talk to you got a great finger on the pulse. You lead a really important organizations at AWS and you know, doctor has such a huge success with developers, even though the company has gone through kind of a uh change over and a pivot to what they're doing now. They're back to their open source roots, but they have millions and millions of developers use Docker and new developers are coming in dot net developers are coming in. Windows developers are coming in and and so it's no longer about Lennox anymore. It's about just coding. >>Yeah. And it's it's part of this big trend towards infrastructure, automation and and you know development and deployment practices that I think everyone is going to adopt faster than we think they will. But you know, companies like Doctor and opens those projects that they involved are critical in making that a lot easier for them. And then you know, folks like us get to build on top of that orbit them and make it even easier. >>Well, great testimony the doctor that you guys based your E C. S on Docker Doctor has a critical role in developing community. I run composed in their hub with dr desktop and we'll be watching amazon and and the community activity and see what kind of experiences you guys can bring to the table and continue that momentum. Thank you Deepak for coming on the >>cube. Thank you, john. That's always a pleasure. >>Okay. Mr cubes. Dr khan 2021 virtual coverage. I'm john for your host of the cube. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's the Cube, covering VMWorld 2017. Brought to you by VMWare and its ecosystem partners. (bright music) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman with the Cube, here with my guest host, Justin Warren. Happy to have a returning Cube alum, but in a different role then we had. It's been a few years. Tal Klein, who is the author of The Punch Escrow. >> Au-tor, please. No, I'm just kidding. (laughing) Tal, thanks so much for joining us. It's great for you to be able to find time to hang out with the tech geeks rather than all the Hollywood people that you've been with recently. (laughing) >> You guys are more interesting. (laughing) >> Well thank you for saying that. So last time we interviewed you, you were working for a sizable tech company. You were talking about things like, you know, virtualization, everything like that. Your Twitter handle's VirtualTal. So how does a guy like that become not only an author but an author that's been optioned for a movie, which those of us that, you know, are geeks and everything are looking at, as a matter of fact, Pac Elsiger this morning said, "we are seeing science fiction become science fact." >> That's right. >> Stu: So tell us a little of the journey. >> Yeah, cool, I hope you read the book. (laughing) I don't know, the journey is really about marketing, right? Cause a lot of times when we talk about virtual, like, in fact last time I was on the Cube, we were talking about the idea that desktops could be virtual. Cause back then it was still this, you know, almost hypothetical notion, like could desktops be virtual, and so today, you know, so much of our life is virtual. So much of the things that we do are not actually direct. I was watching this great video by Apple's new augmented reality product, where you sit in the restaurant and you look at it with your iPad, and it's your plate, and you can just shift the menu items, and you see the menu items on your plate in the context of the restaurant and your seat and the person you're sitting across from. So I think the future is now. >> Yeah, it reminds of, you know, the movie Wall-E, the animated one. We're all going to be sitting in chairs with our devices or Ready Player One, you know, very popular sci-fi book that's being done by Speilberg, I believe. >> Yes, yeah, very exciting. >> Tell us a little bit about your book, you know, we talked, when I was younger and used to read a lot of sci-fi, it was like, what stuff had they done 50 years ago that now's reality, and what stuff had they predicted, like, you know, we're going to go away from currency and go digital currency, and it's like we're almost there. But we still don't have flying cars. >> Yeah, we're, I mean, the main problem with flying cars is that we need pilots. And I think actually we're very close to flying cars, cause once we have self-driving vehicles and we no longer need to worry about it being a person behind the joystick, then we're in really good shape. That's really the issue, you know, the problem with flying cars is that we are so incompetent at driving and or flying. That's not our core competency, so let's just put things that do understand how to make those things happen and eliminate us from the equation. >> Everything is a people problem. >> Yeah, so when I wrote the book, Punch Escrow, Punch Escrow, (laughing) when I wrote the book, I really thought about all the things that I read growing up in science fiction, you know, things like teleportation, things like nanotechnology, things like digital currency, you know, how do we make those, how do we present those in a viable way that doesn't seem too science fictiony. Like one of the things I really get when people read the book is it feels really near-future, even though it's set like 100 plus years in the future, all the concepts in it feel very pragmatic or within reach, you know? >> Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting, we look at, you know, what things happen in a couple of years and what things take a long time. So artificial intelligence, machine learning, it's not like these are new concepts, you know? I read a great book by, you know, it was Isaacson, The Innovators. You go back to like Aida Lovelace, and the idea of what a machine or computer would be able to do. So 100 years from now, what's real, what's not real? We still all have jobs or something? >> We have jobs but different. Remember, I don't know if you're a historian, but back in the industrial age, there was a whole bunch of people screaming doom and gloom. In fact, if we go way back to the age of the Luddites, who just hated machines of any kind. I think that in general, we don't like, you know, we're scared of change. So I do think a lot of the jobs that exist today are going to be done by machines or code. That doesn't mean the jobs are going away. It means jobs are changing. A lot of the jobs that people have today didn't exist in the industrial age. So I think that we have to accept that we are going to be pragmatic enough to accept the fact that humans will continue to evolve as the infrastructure powering our world evolves, you know? We talk about living in the age of the quantified self, right? There's a whole bunch that we don't understand how to do yet. For example, I can think of a whole industry that tethers my FitBit to my nutrition. You know, like there's so much opportunity that for us to say, oh that's going to be the end of jobs, or the end of innovation or the end of capitalism, is insane. I think this just ushers in a whole new age of opportunity. And that's me, I'm just an optimist that way, you know. >> So the Luddites did famously try to destroy the machines. But the thing is, the Luddites weren't wrong. They did lose their jobs. So what about the people whose jobs are replaced, as you say net new, there's a net new number of jobs. But specific individuals, like people who manufacture cars for example, lose their jobs because a robot can do that job safer and better and faster than a human can do it. So what do we do with those humans? Because how do we get people to have new jobs and retrain themselves? >> I address some of these notions in the book. For example, one of the weird things that we're suffering from is the lack of welders in society today, cause welding has become this weird thing that we don't think we need people for, so people don't really get trained up in it because, you know, machines do a lot of welding but there's actually specialty welding that machines can't do. So I think the people who are really good at the things that they do will continue to have careers. I think their careers will become more niche. Therefore they'll be able to create, to demand a higher wage for it because almost like a carpenter, you know, a specialist carpenter will be able to earn a much higher wage today by having fewer customers who want really custom carpentry versus things that can be carved up by a machine. So I think what we end up seeing is that it's not that those jobs go away. It's they become more specialized. People still want Rolls Royces. People still want McLarens. Those are not done by machines. Those are hand-made, you know? >> That's an interesting point, so the value of something being hand-made becomes, instead of it being a worse product, it's actually- >> Tal: That's a big concept in the book. >> Oh okay, right. >> A big concept in the book is that we place a lot of value on the uniqueness of an object. And that parlays in multiple ways. So one of the examples that I use in the book is the value of a Big Mac actually coming from McDonald's. Like, you can make a Big Mac. We know the recipe for a Big Mac. But there is a weird sort of nacent value to getting a Big Mac from McDonald's. It's something in our brain that clicks that tethers it to an originality. Diamonds, another really good example. Or you know, we know there's synthetic diamonds. We still want the ones that get mined in the cave. Why? We don't know. Right, they're just special. >> Because De Beers still has really good marketing. (laughing) >> So I think there's- >> That's interesting, so the concept of uniqueness, which again comes to scarcity and so on. As an author, someone who is no doubt, signed a lot of his book, that means that that book is unique because it's signed by the author, unlike something which is mass produced and there is hopefully thousands and thousands of copies that you sell. >> Going into this, I actually thought about that a lot. And that's why I've created like multiple editions of the book. So like the first 500 people who pre-ordered it, they get like a special edition of the book that's like stamped and all this kind of stuff. I even used different pens. (laughs) I appreciate that because I'm also a collector. I collect music, I collect books. And you know, so I see those aspects in myself. So I know what I value about them, you know? >> And the crossover between music and books is interesting. So as someone who has a musical background, I know that there's a lot of musicians who'll come out with special editions, and you know, because this is an age where we can download it. You can download the book. Do you think there is something, is there something that is intrinsic to having a physical object in a virtual world? >> I think to our generation, yes. I'm not so sure about millennials, when they grow up. But there are, for example, I'm going to see U2 next week, I'm very lucky to see that. But part of the U2 buying experience, to get access to the presale, you need to be part of their fan club. To be a part of their fan club, you need to get, you get like a whole bunch of limited edition posters, limited edition vinyl, and all this kind of stuff. So there's an experience. It's no longer just about going to see U2 at a concert. There's like the entire package of you being a special U2 fan. And they surround it with uniqueness. It's not necessarily limited, but there's an enhanced experience that can't just be, it's not just about you having a ticket to a single concert. >> Justin: Yeah, okay. >> I'm curious, the genre, if you'd call it, is hard science fiction. >> Yes. >> The challenge with that is, you know, what is an extension of what we're doing, and what is fiction? And people probably poke at that. Have you had any interesting experience, things like that? I mean, I've listened to a lot of stuff like Andy Weir, like let the community give feedback before he created the final The Martian. (laughing) But so yeah, what's it like, cause we can, the geeks can be really harsh. >> Yes, I've learned from my Reddit experience that, so what's really funny about it is the first draft of this novel was hard as nails. It was crazy. And my publisher read it, and it would have made all the hard science fiction guys super happy. My publisher read it, he was like, you've written a really great hard science fiction book, and all five people who read it are going to love it. (laughing) You know, but like, I came here with my buddy Danny. He couldn't even get through the first three pages of it. He's like, he wanted to read it. So part of working through the editorial process is saying, look, I care a lot about the science because one of my deep goals is to write a STEM-oriented book that gets people excited about technology and present the future as not a dystopian place. And so I wanted the science to be there and have a sort of gravity to the narrative. But yeah, it's tough. I worked with a physicist, a biologist, a geneticist, an anthropologist, and a lawyer. (laughs) Just to try to figure out, how do we carve out, you know, what does the future look like, what does the evolution of each individual sciences, we talked about the mosquitoes, right? You know, we're already doing a lot of crazy stuff with mosquitoes. We're modifying them so that the males mate with females that carry the Zika virus, you know, give birth to offspring that never reach maturity. I mean, this is just crazy, it's science fiction. And now that they're working on modifying female mosquitoes into vaccine carriers instead of disease carriers. I mean, this is science fiction, right? Like who believes this stuff? It's crazy. >> Christopher is amazing. >> Yeah, I've loved, there's been a bunch of movies recently that have kind of helped to educate on STEM some, you know, Martian got a lot of people excited, you know, Hidden Figures, the one that I could being my kids that are teenagers now into it and they get excited, oh, science is great. So the movie, how much will you be involved? You know, what can you share about that experience, too, so far? >> It's been, it's very surreal. That's the word is use to describe it, the honest, god's honest truth, I mean. I've been very lucky in that my representation in Hollywood is this rock-solid guy called Howie Sanders. And he's this bigger-than-life Hollywood agent guy. He's hooked me up, we've made a lot of business decisions that we're focused less on the money and more on the team, which is nice to be, like when you're in your 40s and you're more financially settled, you're not in the kind of situation where you might be in your 20s and just going to sign the first deal that people give you. So we really focused on hooking up with like the director, James Bovin is, you know, he's the guy who co-created Flight of the Concords. He did the Muppets movie, you know, Alice Through the Looking Glass. Really professional guy but also really understands the tone of the book, which is like humorous, you know, kind of sarcastic. It's not just about the technology. It's also about the characters. Same thing with the production team. The two producers, Mandeville Productions, I was just talking to Todd Lieberman, and we're talking about just what is augmented reality, like how does it look like on the screen? So I'm not- >> It's not going to look like Blade Runner is what I'm hearing. >> (laughs) I don't know. It's going to look real. I imagine, I don't know, they're going to make whatever movie they're going to make, but their perspective, one of the things we talked about is keeping the movie very grounded. Like you know, one of the big questions they ask first going into it is before we even had any sort of movie discussions is like is this more of like a Looper, Gattica, or District Nine, or is it more like The Fifth Element, you know, I mean, is it like, do you want it to be this sort of grounded movie that feels authentic and real and near future or do you want this to be like completely alien and weird and out of it. And the story is more grounded. So I think a lot, hopefully what we display on the screen will not feel that far away from reality. >> Okay, yeah. >> You do marketing in your day job. >> I do. >> I'm curious as you look at this, kind of the balance of educating, reaching a broad audience, you have passion for STEM, what's your thoughts around that? Is it, I worry there's so much general, like television or things like that, when I see the science stuff, it like makes me groan. Because you know, it's like I don't understand that. >> I am the worst, because I got a security background too, so that's the one I get scrambled on. The war, I mean, like. >> Wait, thank goodness I updated my firewall settings because I saved the world from terrorists. >> Hang on, we're breaking through the first firewall. Now we're through the second firewall. (laughing) Now we're going through the third firewall, like 15 firewalls. And let me upload the virus, like all that stuff. It's difficult for me. I think that, you know, hopefully, there's also a group in Hollywood called the Hollywood Science and Entertainment Exchange. And they're a group of scientists who work with film makers on, you know, reigning things in. And film makers don't usually take all their advice, i.e. Interstellar, (laughing) but you know, I think (laughing) in many cases there's some really good ideas that come to play into it that hopefully bring up, like I think Jarvis for example, in Iron Man or the Avengers is a really cool implementation of what the future of AI systems might be like. And I know they used the Hollywood Science Exchange to figure out how is that going to work? And I think the marketing aspect is, you know, the reason I came up with the idea for this book is because my CEO of a company I used to work for, he had this whole conversation about teleportation, like teleportation was impossible. And he's like, it's not because the science, yes, the science is a problem right now, but we'll get over it. The main issue is that nobody would ever step foot into a device that vaporizes them and then printed them out somewhere else. And I said, well that's great, cause that's a marketing problem. (laughing) >> Yeah, you're dead every time you do it. But it's the same you, I can't tell the difference. >> Well, you say you're dead, I'm saying you're just moving. (laughing) >> Artificial intelligence, you know, kind of a big gap between the hype to where we need to go. What's your thoughts on that space in general? >> I think that we have, it's a great question because I feel like that's a term that gets thrown around a lot, and I think as a result it's becoming watered down. So you've this sort of artificial intelligence that comes with like, you know, Google building an app that can beat the world's best Go player, which is a really, really difficult puzzle. The problem is, that app can do one thing, and that's play Go. You put in it a chess game, and it's like I don't know what's going on. >> It's a very specialized kind of intelligence, yeah. >> Now with Open AI, you know, they just had some pretty interesting implementations where they actually played video games with a real live competition and won. Again, you know, but without the smack talk, which really I think would add a lot. Now you got to get an AI to smack talk. So I think the problem is we haven't figured out a really good way of creating a general purpose AI. And there's a lot of parallels to the evolution of computing in general because if you look at how computers were before we had general purpose operating systems like Unix, every computer was built to do a very, very specific function, and that's kind of what AI is right now. So we're still waiting to have a sort of general purpose AI that can do a lot of specialized activities. >> Even most robots are still very single-purpose today. >> That's the fundamental problem. But you're seeing the Cambridge guys are working on sort of the bipedal robot that can do lots of things. And Siri's getting better, Cortana's getting better, Watson's getting better, but we're not there. We still need to find a really good way of integrating deep knowledge with general purpose conversational AI. Cause that's really what you need to like, Stu, what do you need? Here, let me give it to you, you know? >> Do you draw a distinction between AI that's able to simply sort of react as a fairly complex machine or something that can create new things and add something? >> That's in the book as well. So the fundamental thing that I don't think we get around even in the future is giving computers the ability to actually come up with new ideas. There's actually a career, the main job of the protagonist in the book, his job is a salter. And his job is to salt AI algorithms to introduce entropy so they can come up with new ideas. >> Okay, interesting. >> So based off the sort of chaos theory. >> Like chaos monkey, right? >> Yeah. And that's really what you're trying to do is like, okay, react to things that are happening because you can't just come up with them on their own. There's a whole, I don't want to bore you, but there's a whole bunch of stuff in the book about how that works. >> It's like hand-carving ideas that are then mass produced by machines. >> Yeah, I don't know if you guys are going to have Simon Crosby on here, he's kind of like an expert on that. He was the Dean of Kings College, which is where Turing came from. So he really knows a lot about that. He's got a lot of strong ideas about it. But I learned a lot from him in that regard. There's a lot of like, the snarky spirit of Simon Crosby lives on in my book somewhere. But he's just funny cause he's, coming from that field, he immediately sees a lot of BS right off the bat, whenever anybody's presenting. He's got like the ability to just cut through it. Because he understands what it would actually take to make that happen, you know? So I tried to preserve some of that in the book. >> That is refreshing in the tech industry. >> So Tal, I need to let you, you know, wrap this up. Give us a plug for the book, tell us, when are we going to be able to see this on the big screen? >> I don't know about the big screen, but the Punch Escrow is now available. You can get it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, anywhere books are sold. It's been optioned by Lionsgate. The director attached to it is James Bovin, production team is Mandeville Productions. I'm very excited about it. Go check it out. It's a pretty quick read, reads like a technothriller. It's not too hard. And it's fun for the whole family. I think one of the coolest things about it is that the feedback I've been getting has been that it really is appealing to everybody. I've got mother-in-laws reading it, you know, it's pretty cool. Initially I sold it, my initial audience is like us, but it's kind of cool, like, Stu will finish the book, he'll give it to, you know, wife, daughter, anything, and they're really digging it. So it's kind of fun. >> Justin: Thanks a lot. >> Tal Klein, really appreciate you coming. Congratulations on the book, we look forward to the movie. Maybe, you know, we'll get the Cube involved down the road. (laughing) >> And we're giving away 75 copies of it here at Lakeside booth, if you guys want to come. >> Tal Klein, author of The Punch Escrow, also CMO of Lakeside, who is here in the thing. But yeah, (laughing) a lot of stuff. Justin and I will be back with more coverage here from VMWorld 2017. You're watching the Cube. (bright music)