(upbeat intro music) >> Good afternoon, fellow tech nerds. My name is Savannah Peterson, coming to you from theCube's Remote Studio here in Motown, Detroit, Michigan where we are at KubeCon. John, this is our 12th interview of the day. How are you feeling? >> I'm feeling fresh as the first interview. (Savannah laughs) As always. >> That delivery really implied a level of freshness. >> Let's go! No, this is only Day 1. In three days, reinvent. We go hardcore. These are great events. We get so much great content. The conversations are amazing. The guests are awesome. They're technical, they're smart, and they're making the difference in the future. So, this next segment about Scale MySQL should be awesome. >> I am very excited to introduce our next guest who actually has a Twitter handle that I think most people, at least of my gender in this industry would love to have. She is @ATechGirl. So you can go ahead and tweet her and tell her how great this interview is while we're live. Please welcome Deepthi Sigireddi. Thank you so much for being here with us. >> Thank you for having me. >> You're feeding us in. You've got two talks you're giving while we're here. >> Yes, yes. So tomorrow we will be talking about VTR, myself and one of the other maintainers of Vitess and on Friday we have the Vitess Maintainer Talk. All graduated projects get a maintainer talk. >> Wow, so you are like KubeCon VIP celebrity. >> Well, I hope so. >> Well, you're a maintainer and technical lead, also software engineer at the PlanetScale. But talk about the graduation process where that means to the project and the people involved. >> So Vitess graduated in 2019 and there are strict criteria for graduation and you don't just have to meet the minimum, you sort of have to over perform on the graduation criteria. Some of which are like there must be at least two large production deploys and people from those companies have to go in front of the CNCF committee that approves these things and say that, "Yes, this project is critical to our business." >> A lot of peer review, a lot of deployment success. >> Yes. >> Good consistency in the code. >> Deepthi: Community diversity. >> All that. >> All those things. >> Talk about the importance of this project. What is the top story that people should know about around the project? Why it exists, why it's important, why it's relevant, why it's cool. How would you answer that? >> So MySQL is now 30 years old and yet they are still- >> Makes me feel a little sidebar. (Deepthi laughs) Yeah. >> And yet even though there are many other newer databases, it continues to be used at many of the largest internet scale companies. And some of them, for example, Slack, GitHub, Square, they have grown to a level where they could not have if they had tried to do it with Vanilla MySQL that they started with, and the only reason they are where they are is Vitess. So that is I think the number one thing people should know about Vitess. >> And the origination story on notes say "Came from YouTube." >> Yes. So the way Vitess started was that YouTube was having problems with their MySQL deployment and they got tired of dealing with the site being down. So the founders of Vitess decided that they had to do something about it and they started building Vitess which started as a pretty small, relatively code-based with limited features, and over time they built charting and all of the other things that we have today. >> Well, this is exciting Savannah because we've seen this industry. Like with Facebook, when they started, everyone built their own stuff. MySQL was a great- >> Oh gosh, and everyone wanted to build it their way, reinventing the wheel. >> And MySQL was great. And then as it kind of broke when it grew, it got retrofitted. So, it was constantly being scaled up to the point where now you guys, if I get this right, said, "Hey, we're going to work on this. We're going to make it next-gen." So it's kind of like next-gen MySQL. Almost. >> Yes, yes. I would say that's pretty accurate, yeah. So there are still large companies which run their own MySQL and they have scaled it in their own way, but Vitess happens to be an open source way of scaling MySQL that people can adopt without having to build all of their own tooling around it. >> Speaking of that and growing, you just announced a new version today. >> Yes, yes. >> Tell us about that. >> The focus in this version was to make Vitess easier to use and to deploy. So in the past, there was one glaring gap in Vitess which was that Vitess did not automatically detect and repair MySQL level failures. With this release, we've actually closed that gap. And what that means for people using Vitess is that they will actually spend less time dealing with outages manually, or less human intervention, More automated recovery is what it means. The other thing we've released today is a new web UI. Vitess had a very old web UI, ugly, hard to maintain. Nobody liked it. But it was functional, except we couldn't add anything new to it because it was so old. So, the backend functionality kept advancing but the front end was kind of frozen. Now we have a next generation UI to which in upcoming releases we can add more and more functionality. >> So, it's extensible. They add things in. >> Deepthi: Oh yes, of course. Yeah. >> Awesome. What's the biggest thing that you like about the new situation? Is it more contributors are on board the UI? What's the fresh new impact that's happening in the community? What's getting you excited about with the current project? And the UI's great 'cause usability is important. >> Deepthi: Right. >> Scalability is important. >> I think Vitess solved the scalability problem way early and only now we are really grappling with the usability problem. So the hope and the desire is to make Vitess autopilot so that you reduce human intervention to a minimum once you deploy it. Obviously, you have to go through the process of deploying it. But once you've deployed it, it should just run itself. >> Runs at scale. So, the scale's huge? >> Deepthi: Yes. >> How many contributors are involved in the project? Can you give some numbers? Do you have any handy that you can speak to? >> Right. So, CNCF actually tracks these statistics for all the projects and we consolidated some numbers for the last two full calendar years, 2020 and 2021. We had over 400 contributors and 200 plus of them contributed code and the others contributed documentation issues, website changes, and things like that. So that gives- >> How about downloads? Download's good? >> Oh, okay. So we started publishing the current official Vitess Docker Image in 2018. And by October of 2020, we had about 3.8 million downloads. And by August of 2021, we had 5.2 million. And today, we have had over 10 million downloads- >> Wow! >> Of the main image. >> Starting to see a minute of that hockey stick that we all like to see. Seems like you're very clearly a community-first leader and it seems like that's in the PlanetScale and the test's DNA. Is that how the whole company culture views it? Would you say it's community-first business? >> PlanetScale is very much committed to Vitess as an open source project and to serving the Vitess community. So as part of my role at PlanetScale, some of the things I do are helping new contributors whether they are from PlanetScale or from outside PlanetScale. A number of PlanetScale engineers who don't work full-time on Vitess still contribute bug fixes and features to Vitess. We spend a significant amount of our energy helping users in our community Slack. The releases we do are mainly for the benefit of the community and PlanetScale is making those releases because for Planet Scale... Within PlanetScale, we actually do separate releases versus the public ones. >> One of the things that's coming up here at the show is deploying on Kubernetes. How does that look like? Everyone wants ease of use. Are you guys easy to use? >> Yes, yes. So PlanetScale also open sourced a Kubernetes operator for Vitess that people outside PlanetScale are using to run their production deployments of Vitess. Prior to that, there were Vitess users who actually built their own Kubernetes deployments of Vitess and they are still running those, but new users and new adopters of Vitess tend to use the Kubernetes operator that we are publishing. >> And you guys are the managed service for Vitess for the people that that's the business model for PlanetScale. >> Correct. So PlanetScale has a serverless database on demand which is built on Vitess. So if someone's starting something new and they just need a database, you sign up. It takes 30 seconds to get a database. Connect to it and start doing things with it. Versus if you are a large enterprise and you have a huge database deployment, you can migrate to PlanetScale, import all of your existing data, cut over with minimal downtime and then go, and then PlanetScale manages that. >> And why would they do that? What's the use case for that? Save time new development team or refactoring? >> Save time not being able to hire people with the skills to run it in-house. Not wanting to invest engineering resources in what businesses think is not their core competency. They want to focus on their business value. >> So, this database is a service in their whatever they're doing without adding more costs. >> Right. >> And speed. Okay, cool. How's that going? >> It's going well. >> Any feedback from customers in terms of why that there are any benefit statements you seek popping out? What are the big... What's the big aha when they... When people realize what they have here, what's the aha moment for them? Do they go, "Wow, this is awesome. It's so easy. Push a button. Migrate." Or is it... >> All of those. And people have actually seen cost savings when they've migrated from Amazon RDS to PlanetScale and we have testimonials from people who've said that, "It was so easy to use PlanetScale. Why would we try to do it ourselves?" >> It's the best thing a customer could say, right? We're all about being painkillers and solving some sort of problem. I think that that's a great opportunity to let you show off some of your customers. So, who is receiving this benefit? 'Cause I know PlanetScale specifically is for a certain style of business. >> Hmm. We have a list of customers on the website. >> Savannah: I was going to say you have a really- >> John: She's a software engineer. She's not marketing. >> You did sexy. >> You're doing a great job as much as marketing. >> So the reason I am bringing this up is because it's clear this is a solution for companies like Square, SoundCloud, Etsy, Jordan, and other exciting brands. So when you're talking about companies at scale, these companies are very much at scale, which is awesome. >> Yeah. >> What's next? What do you guys see the future for the project? >> I think we talked about that a little bit already. So, usability is a big thing. We did the new UI. It's not complete, right? Because over the last four years we've built more features into the backend which you can't yet access from the UI. So we want to be able for people to use things like online schema changes which is a big feature of Vitess. Doing schema changes without downtime from the UI. So, schema management from the UI. Vitess has something called VReplication which is the core technology that enables charting. And right now you can from the UI monitor your charting status, but you can't actually start charting from the UI. So more of the administrative functions we want to enable from the UI. >> John: Awesome. >> Last question. What are you personally most excited about this week being here with our wonderful community? >> I always enjoy being at KubeCon. This is my fifth or sixth in-person and I've done a couple of virtual ones. >> Savannah: Awesome. >> Because of the energy, because you get to meet people in person whom previously you've only met in Slack or maybe in a monthly community Zoom calls. We always have people come to our project booth. We have a project booth here for Vitess. People come to the company booth. PlanetScale has a booth. People come to our talks, ask questions. We end up having design discussions, architecture discussions. We get feedback on what is important to the people who show up here. That always informs what we do with the project in future releases. >> Perfect answer. I already mentioned that you can get a hold and in touch with Deepthi through her wonderful Twitter handle. Is there any other website or anything you want to shout out here before I do our close? >> vitess.io. V-I-T-E-S-S dot I-O is the Vitess website and planetscale.com is the PlanetScale website. >> Deepthi Sigireddi, thank you so much for being on the show with us today. John, thanks for keeping me company as always. >> You're welcome. >> And thank all of you for tuning into theCUBE. We will be here in Detroit, Michigan all week live from KubeCon and we hope to see you there. (gentle upbeat music)

welcome back to los angeles lisa martin here with dave nicholson day three of the cube's coverage of kubecon cloud native con north america 2020 we've been having some great comp live conversations in the last three days with actual guests on set we're very pleased to welcome to for the first time to our program shimon ben david the cto of weka welcome hey nice to be here nice to be here great to be at an in-person event isn't it no it's awesome they've done a great job i think you're green you're green like we're green fully green which is fantastic actually purple and hearts wake up yeah good to know green means you're shaking hands and maybe the occasional hug so talk to us about weka what's going on we'll kind of dig into what you guys are doing with kubernetes but give us that overview of what's going on at weka io okay so weka has been around for several years already uh we actually jade our product of 2016 so it's been out there uh actually eight of the fortune 50 are using weka um for those of you that don't know weka by the way we're a fully software defined parallel file system cloud native i know it's a mouthful and it's buzzword compliant but we actually baked all of that into the product from day one because we did other storage companies in the past and we actually wanted to take the best of all worlds and put that into one storage that is is not another me too it's not another compromise so we built the the environment we built weka to actually accommodate for upcoming technologies so we identified also that cloud technology is upcoming network actually exploded in a good way one gig 10 gig 100 gig 200 gig came out so we knew that that's going to be a trend and also cloud we saw cloud being utilized more and more and we kind of like bet that being able to be a parallel file system for the cloud would be amazing and it does how are you not on me too tell me tell us that when you're talking with customers what are the like the top three things that really differentiate weka speed scale and simplicity speed skills i like how fast you said that like quicker so speed sorry you see a lot of file system a lot of storage environments that are very um throughput oriented so speed how many gigabytes can you do to be honest a lot of storage environments are saying we can do that in that many gigabytes when we designed weka actually we wanted to provide an environment that would actually be faster than your local nvme on your local server because that's what we see are actually customers using for performance they're copying the data for their local to their local nvmes and process it we created an environment that is actually throughput oriented iops oriented latency sensitive and metadata performance so it's kind of like the best of all worlds and it's just not just a claim we actually showed it in many benchmarks uh top 500s supercomputing centers can talk for hours about performance but that's performance um scalability we actually are able to scale uh and we did show that we scaled to multiple petabytes we actually uh took some projects from scale-out nas appliances that actually got to their limit of their scale out and we we just continued from there double digit triple digits petabytes upcoming um and also scale is also how many clients can you service at once so it's not only how much capacity but also how many clients can you can you work with concurrently and simplicity all of that we from the initial design points were let's make something that is usable by users and not like so my mother can really use it right and so we have a very simple intuitive user interface but it's also api driven so you can automate around it so simplicity speed and scale love it so shimon it's interesting you said that your company was founded in 2016 in that in that time period because uh before jade ga ga 2016. um but but in those in in those surrounding years uh there were a lot of companies that were coming out at sort of the tail end of the legacy storage world yeah trying to just cannibalize that business you came out looking into the future where are we in that future now because you could argue that you guys maybe started a little early you could have taken a couple of years off and waited for uh for for the wave in the world of containerization as an example to come through but this is really this is like your time to shine isn't it exactly and being fully software defined we can always um adapt and we're always adapting so we bet on new technologies networking flash environments and these keep just keep on going and improving right when we went out we were like in 10 gig environments with ssds but we already knew that we're going to go to 100 and we also designed already for nvmes so kind like hardware constantly improved uh cpus for example the new intel cpus the new amd cpus we just accommodated for them because being software defined means that we actually bypass most of their inner workings and do things ourselves so that's awesome and then the cloud environment is growing massively and containers we see containers now in everyday uh use cases where initially it was maybe vms maybe bare metal but now everything is containerized and we're actually starting to see more and more kubernetes orchestrated environment uh coming out as well i still have a feeling that this is still a bit of dev property hey i'm a developer i'm a devops engineer i'm going to do it uh and it's there is i actually saw a lot of exciting things here um taking it to the next level to the it environment so um that's where we will show benefit as well so talk about how kubernetes users are are working with weka what is what superpower does that give them so um i think if you look at the current storage solutions that you have for kubernetes um they're interesting but they're more of like the let's take what we have today and plug it in right um so what kind of has a csi uh plug-in so it's easy to integrate and work with but also when you look at it um block is still being used in in kubernetes environments that i'm familiar with block was still being used for high performance so i i used uh pvs and pvcs to manage my pods uh claims and then but then i mounted them as read write once right because i couldn't share them then if a pod failed i had to reclaim the pvc and connect it to multiple environments because i wanted block storage because it's fast and then nfs environments was were used as read write many uh to be a shared environment but low performance so by being able to say hey we now have an environment that is fully covered kubernetes integrated and it provides all the performance aspects that you need you don't need to choose just run your fleet of pods your cluster of pods read write many you don't need to to manage old reclamations just to create new pods you get the best of all words ease of use and also uh the performance additionally because there's always more right we now see more and more uh cloud environments right so weka also has the ability and i didn't focus on that but it's it's really uh amazing it has the ability to move data around between different environments so imagine and we see that imagine on-prem environments that are now using weka you're in the terabytes or petabyte scale obviously you can copy and rsync and rclone right but nobody really does it because it doesn't work for these capacities so weka has the ability to say hey i can move data around between different environments so create more copies or simply burst so we see customers that are working on-prem throwing data to the cloud we see customers working on the cloud and and then we actually now see customers starting to bridge the gap because cloud bursting is again is a very nice buzzword we see some customers exploring it we don't really see customers doing it at the moment but the customers that are exploring it are exploring uh throwing the compute out to the cloud using the kubernetes cluster and throwing the data to the cloud using the weka cluster so there's and and one last thing because that's another interesting use case weka can be run converged on the same kubernetes cluster so there is no need to have even it's so in essence it's a zero footprint storage you don't need to even add more servers so i don't need to buy a box and connect my cluster to that box i just run it on the same servers and if i want more compute nodes i add more nodes and i'll add more storage by doing that so it's that simple so i was just looking at the website and see that waka was just this was just announced last week a visionary in the gartner mq for what's the mq4 distributed file systems and object storage talk to me talk talk to us about that what does that distinction mean for the company and how does the voice of the customer validate that great so actually this is interesting this is a culmination of a lot of hard work that all of the team did writing the product and all of the customers by adopting the product because it was in order to get to that i know we don't know if anybody is familiar with the criteria but you need to have a large footprint a distinguished footprint worldwide so we worked hard on getting that and we see that and we see that in multiple markets by the way financials we see a massive amounts of aiml projects containerized kubernetes orchestrated so getting to that was a huge achievement you could see other storage devices not being there because not not every storage appliance is is a parallel file system usually i think uh when you look at parallel file systems you you you attribute complexity and i need an army of people to manage it and to tweak it so that's again one of the things that we did and that's why we really think that we're a cool vendor in that magikarp magic quarter right because you it's that simple to manage uh you don't have any uh find you you cannot you don't need to find unity in like a bazillion different ways just install it we work it works you map it to your containers simple so we're here at kubecon a lot of talk about cloud native a lot of projects a lot of integration a lot of community development you've described installing weka into a kubernetes cluster where you know are there are there integrations that are being worked on what are the is there connective tissue between essentially this parallel file system that's spanning you say you have five nodes you have weka running on those five nodes you have a kubernetes cluster spanning those five nodes um what kinds of things are happening in the community maybe that you're supporting or that you're participating in to connect those together so right now you you don't uh we only have the csi plugin we didn't invest in in anything more actually one of the reasons that i'm here is to get to know the community a bit more and to get more involved and we're definitely looking into how more can we help customers utilize kubernetes and and enjoy the worker storage uh do we need to do some sort of integration i'm actually exploring that and i think you'll see some well so we got interesting so we got you at a good time now exactly yeah because you can say with with it with an api approach um you have the you have the connectivity and you're providing this storage layer that provides all the attributes that you described but you are here live living proof green wristband and all showing that the future will be even more interesting voting on the future yeah and and seeing how we can help the community and what can we do together and actually i'm really impressed by the the conference it's been amazing we've been talking about that all week being impressed with the fact that there's we've been hearing between 2 700 and 3 100 people here which is amazing in person of course there's many more that are participating virtually but they've done a great job of these green wristbands by the way we've talked about these a minute ago um this you have a red yellow or green option to to tell others are you comfortable with contact handshakes hugs etc i love that the fact that i am i'm sandwiched by two grains but they've done a great job of making this safe and i hope that this is a message this is a big community um the cncf has 138 000 contributors i hope this is a message that shows that you can do these events we can get together in person again because there's nothing like the hallway track you can't replicate that on video exactly grabbing people in the hallway in the hotel in the lobby talking about their problems seeing what they need what we do it's amazing right so so give us a little bit in our last few minutes here about the go to market what is the the gtm strategy for weka so that's an interesting question so being fully software defined when we started we we thought do we do another me too another storage appliance even though we're storage defined could we just go to market with our own boxes and we actually uh decided to go differently because our market was actually the storage vendors sorry the server vendors we actually decided to go and enable other bare metal environments manufacturers to now create storage solutions so we now have a great partnership with hpe with supermicro with hitachi uh and and more as well with aws because again being software defined we we can run on the cloud we do have massive projects on the clouds some of the we're all familiar with some but i can't mention um so and we we chose that as our go to market because we we are fully software defined we don't need any specific hardware for we just need a server with nvmes or an instance with nvmes and that's it there's no usually when i talk about what we need is as a product i also talk about the list of what we don't need is longer we don't need j bar j buffs servers ups we don't need all of that raid arrays we just need the servers so a lot of the server vendors actually identify that and then when we approach them and say hey this is what we can do on your bare metal on your environment is that valuable of course so so that's mostly our go to market another thing is that we chose to to focus on the markets that we're going after we're not another me too we're not another storage for your home directories even though obviously we are in some cases uh by customers but we're the storage where if you could shrink your wall clock time of your pipeline from two weeks to four hours and we did that's like 84 times faster if you could do that how valuable is that that's what we do that we see that more and more in modern enterprises so when we started doing that people were saying hey so your go to market is only hpc uh no all if you look at ai email life science um financials and the list goes on right modern environments are now being what hpc was a few years ago so there's massive amounts of data so our go to market is to be very targeted toward uh these markets and then we can say that they also uh push us to to other sides of the hey i have a worker so i might put my vmware on it i might put my i'll do my distributed compilation on this it's it's growing organically so that's fun to see awesome tremendous amount of growth i love that you talked about it very clearly simplicity speed and scale i think you did a great job of articulating why waka is not a me too last question are there any upcoming webinars or events or announcements that that folks can go to learn more about weka uh great question um i didn't come with my marketing hat but we we constantly have events and uh we usually what we usually do we we talk about the markets that we go after so for example a while ago we were in bioit so we published some uh life science articles um i need to see what's in the pipeline and definitely share it with you well i know you guys are going to be at re invent we do so hopefully we'll see you re-invent we're very in super computing as well if you'll be there fantastic i see that on your website there um i don't think we're there but we will see you we're a strong believer of of these conferences of these communities of being on the ground talking with people obviously if you can do it we'll do it with zoom but this is prices yeah it is there's nothing like it shimon it's been great to have you on the program thank you so much for giving us an update on weka sharing what you guys are doing how you're helping kubernetes users and what differentiates the technology we appreciate all your insights and your energy too no it's not me it's the product ah i love it for dave nicholson i'm lisa martin coming to you live from los angeles this is kubecon cloudnativecon north america 21 coverage on the cube wrapping up three days of wall-to-wall coverage we thank you for watching we hope you stay well

(upbeat soft intro music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome back to theCube's live coverage from Los Angeles of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2021. Lisa Martin with Dave Nicholson, Dave and I are pleased to welcome our next guest remotely. Steven Huels joins us, the senior director of Cloud Services at Red Hat. Steven, welcome to the program. >> Steven: Thanks, Lisa. Good to be here with you and Dave. >> Talk to me about where you're seeing traction from an AI/ML perspective? Like where are you seeing that traction? What are you seeing? Like it. >> It's a great starter question here, right? Like AI/ML is really being employed everywhere, right? Regardless of industry. So financial services, telco, governments, manufacturing, retail. Everyone at this point is finding a use for AI/ML. They're looking for ways to better take advantage of the data that they've been collecting for these years. It really, it wasn't all that long ago when we were talking to customers about Kubernetes and containers, you know, AI/ML really wasn't a core topic where they were looking to use a Kubernetes platform to address those types of workloads. But in the last couple of years, that's really skyrocketed. We're seeing a lot of interest from existing customers that are using Red Hat open shift, which is a Kubernetes based platform to take those AI/ML workloads and take them from what they've been doing for additionally, for experimentation, and really get them into production and start getting value out of them at the end of it. >> Is there a common theme, you mentioned a number of different verticals, telco, healthcare, financial services. Is there a common theme, that you're seeing among these organizations across verticals? >> ^There is. I mean, everyone has their own approach, like the type of technique that they're going to get the most value out of. But the common theme is really that everyone seems to have a really good handle on experimentation. They have a lot of very brig data scientists, model developers that are able to take their data and out of it, but where they're all looking to get, get our help or looking for help, is to put those models into production. So ML ops, right. So how do I take what's been built on, on somebody's machine and put that into production in a repeatable way. And then once it's in production, how do I monitor it? What am I looking for as triggers to indicate that I need to retrain and how do I iterate on this sequentially and rapidly applying what would really be traditional dev ops software development, life cycle methodologies to ML and AI models. >> So Steve, we're joining you from KubeCon live at the moment. What's, what's the connection with Kubernetes and how does Kubernetes enable machine learning artificial intelligence? How does it enable it and what are some of the special considerations to in mind? >> So the immediate connection for Red Hat, is Red Hat's open shift is basically an enterprise grade Kubernetics. And so the connection there is, is really how we're working with customers and how customers in general are looking to take advantage of all the benefits that you can get from the Kubernetes platform that they've been applying to their traditional software development over the years, right? The, the agility, the ability to scale up on demand, the ability to have shared resources, to make specialized hardware available to the individual communities. And they want to start applying those foundational elements to their AI/Ml practices. A lot of data science work traditionally was done with high powered monolithic machines and systems. They weren't necessarily shared across development communities. So connecting something that was built by a data scientist, to something that then a software developer was going to put into production was challenging. There wasn't a lot of repeatability in there. There wasn't a lot of scalability, there wasn't a lot of auditability and these are all things that we know we need when talking about analytics and AI/ML. There's a lot of scrutiny put on the auditability of what you put into production, something that's making decisions that impact on whether or not somebody gets a loan or whether or not somebody is granted access to systems or decisions that are made. And so that the connection there is really around taking advantage of what has proven itself in kubernetes to be a very effective development model and applying that to AI/ML and getting the benefits in being able to put these things into production. >> Dave: So, so Red Hat has been involved in enterprises for a long time. Are you seeing most of this from a Kubernetes perspective, being net new application environments or are these extensions of what we would call legacy or traditional environments. >> They tend to be net new, I guess, you know, it's, it's sort of, it's transitioned a little bit over time. When we first started talking to customers, there was desire to try to do all of this in a single Kubernetes cluster, right? How can I take the same environment that had been doing our, our software development, beef it up a little bit and have it applied to our data science environment. And over time, like Kubernetes advanced rights. So now you can actually add labels to different nodes and target workloads based on specialized machinery and hardware accelerators. And so that has shifted now toward coming up with specialized data science environments, but still connecting the clusters in that's something that's being built on that data science environment is essentially being deployed then through, through a model pipeline, into a software artifact that then makes its way into an application that that goes live. And, and really, I think that that's sensible, right? Because we're constantly seeing a lot of evolution in, in the types of accelerators, the types of frameworks, the types of libraries that are being made available to data scientists. And so you want the ability to extend your data science cluster to take advantage of those things and to give data scientists access to that those specialized environments. So they can try things out, determine if there's a better way to, to do what they're doing. And then when they find out there is, be able to rapidly roll that into your production environment. >> You mentioned the word acceleration, and that's one of the words that we talk about when we talk about 2020, and even 2021, the acceleration in digital transformation that was necessary really a year and a half ago, for companies to survive. And now to be able to pivot and thrive. What are you seeing in terms of customers appetites for, for adopting AI/ML based solutions? Has it accelerated as the pandemic has accelerated digital transformation. >> It's definitely accelerated. And I think, you know, the pandemic probably put more of a focus for businesses on where can they start to drive more value? How can they start to do more with less? And when you look at systems that are used for customer interactions, whether they're deflecting customer cases or providing next best action type recommendations, AI/ML fits the bill there perfectly. So when they were looking to optimize, Hey, where do we put our spend? What can help us accelerate and grow? Even in this virtual world we're living in, AI/ML really floated to the top there, that's definitely a theme that we've seen. >> Lisa: Is there a customer example that you think that you could mention that really articulates the value over that? >> You know, I think a lot of it, you know, we've published one specifically around HCA health care, and this had started actually before the pandemic, but I think especially, it's applicable because of the nature of what a pandemic is, where HCA was using AI/ML to essentially accelerate diagnosis of sepsis, right. They were using it for, for disease diagnoses. That same type of, of diagnosis was being applied to looking at COVID cases as well. And so there was one that we did in Canada with, it's called 'how's your flattening', which was basically being able to track and do some predictions around COVID cases in the Canadian provinces. And so that one's particularly, I guess, kind of close to home, given the nature of the pandemic, but even within Red Hat, we started applying a lot more attention to how we could help with customer support cases, right. Knowing that if folks were going to be out with any type of illness. We needed to be able to be able to handle that case, you know, workload without negatively impacting work-life balance for, for other associates. So we looked at how can we apply AI/ML to help, you know, maintain and increase the quality of customer service we were providing. >> it's a great use case. Did you have a keynote or a session, here at KubeCon CloudNative? >> I did. I did. And it really focused specifically on that whole ML ops and model ops pipeline. It was called involving Kubernetes and bracing model ops. It was for a Kubernetes AI day. I believe it aired on Wednesday of this week. Tuesday, maybe. It all kind of condenses in the virtual world. >> Doesn't it? It does. >> So one of the questions that Lisa and I have for folks where we sit here, I don't know, was it year seven or so of the Dawn of Kubernetes, if I have that, right. Where do you think we are, in this, in this wave of adoption, coming from a Red Hat perspective, you have insight into, what's been going on in enterprises for the last 20 plus years. Where are we in this wave? >> That's a great question. Every time, like you, it's sort of that cresting wave sort of, of analogy, right? That when you get to top one wave, you notice the next wave it's even bigger. I think we've certainly gotten to the point where, where organizations have accepted that Kubernetes can, is applicable across all the workloads that they're looking to put in production. Now, the focus has shifted on optimizing those workloads, right? So what are the things that we need to run in our in-house data centers? What are things that we need, or can benefit from using commodity hardware from one of the hyperscalers, how do we connect those environments and more effectively target workloads? So if I look at where things are going to the future, right now, we see a lot of things being targeted based on cluster, right? We say, Hey, we have a data science cluster. It has characteristics because of X, Y, and Z. And we put all of our data science workloads into that cluster. In the future, I think we want to see more workload specific, type of categorization of workloads so that we're able to match available hardware with workloads rather than targeting a workload at a specific cluster. So a developer or data scientist can say, Hey, my particular algorithm here needs access to GPU acceleration and the following frameworks. And then it, the Kubernetes scheduler is able to determine of the available environments. What's the capacity, what are the available resources and match it up accordingly. So we get into a more dynamic environment where the developers and those that are actually building on top of these platforms actually have to know less and less about the clusters they're running on. It just have to know what types of resources they need access to. >> Lisa: So sort of democratizing that. Steve, thank you for joining Dave and me on the program tonight, talking about the traction that you're seeing with AI/ML, Kubernetes as an enabler, we appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> Thanks Steve. >> For Dave Nicholson. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCube live from Los Angeles KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 21. We'll be right back with our next guest. (subtle music playing) >> Lisa: I have been in the software and technology industry for over 12 years now. So I've had the opportunity as a marketer to really understand and interact with customers across the entire buyer's journey. Hi, I'm Lisa Martin and I'm a host of theCube. Being a host on the cube has been a dream of mine for the last few years. I had the opportunity to meet Jeff and Dave and John at EMC World a few years ago and got the courage up to say, Hey, I'm really interested in this. I love talking with customers...

>>Welcome to this cube conversation. I'm Dave Nicholson and we're having this conversation in advance of cube con cloud native con north America, 2021. Uh, we are going to be talking specifically about a subject near and dear to my heart, and that is security. We have a very special guest from red hat, the security lead from the office of the CTO. New kinds. Welcome. Welcome to the cube Luke. >>Oh, it's great to be here. Thank you, David. Really looking forward to this conversation. >>So you have a session, uh, at a CubeCon slash cloud native con this year. And, uh, frankly, I look at the title and based on everything that's going on in the world today, I'm going to accuse you of clickbait because the title of your session is a secure supply chain vision. Sure. What other than supply chain has is in the news today, all of these things going on, but you're talking about the software supply chain. Aren't you tell, tell us about, tell us about this vision, where it came from Phyllis in. >>Yes, very much. So I do agree. It is a bit of a buzzword at the moment, and there is a lot of attention. It is the hot topic, secure supply chains, thanks to things such as the executive order. And we're starting to see an increase in attacks as well. So there's a recent statistic came out that was 620%. I believe increase since last year of supply chain attacks involving the open source ecosystem. So things are certainly ramping up. And so there is a bit of clickbait. You got me there. And um, so supply chains, um, so it's predominantly let's consider what is a supply chain. Okay. And we'll, we'll do this within the context of cloud native technology. Okay. Cause there's many supply chains, you know, many, many different software supply chains. But if we look at a cloud native one predominantly it's a mix of people and machines. >>Okay. So you'll have your developers, uh, they will then write code. They will change code and they'll typically use our, a code revision control system, like get, okay, so they'll make their changes there. Then push those changes up to some sort of repository, typically a get Harbor or get level, something like that. Then another human will then engage and they will review the code. So somebody that's perhaps a maintain will look at the code and they'll improve that a code. And then at the same time, the machine start to get involved. So you have your build servers that run tests and integration tests and they check the code is linted correctly. Okay. And then you have this sort of chain of events that start to happen. These machines, these various actors that start to play their parts in the chain. Okay. So your build system might generate a container image is a very common thing within a cloud native supply chain. >>Okay. And then that image is typically deployed to production or it's hosted on a registry, a container registry, and then somebody else might utilize that container image because it has software that you've packaged within that container. Okay. And then this sort of prolific expansion of use of coasts where people start to rely on other software projects for their own dependencies within their code. Okay. And you've got this kind of a big spaghetti of actors that are dependent on each other and feed him from each other. Okay. And then eventually that is deployed into production. Okay. So these machines are a lot of them non open source code. Okay. Even if there is a commercial vendor that manages that as a service, it's all based on predominantly open source code. Okay. And the security aspects with the supply chain is there's many junctures where you can exploit that supply chain. >>So you can exploit the human, or you could be a net ferrous human in the first place you could steal somebody's identity. Okay. And then there's the build systems themselves where they generate these artifacts and they run jobs. Okay. And then there are the production system, which pulls these down. Okay. And then there's the element of which we touched upon around libraries and dependencies. So if you look at a lot of projects, they will have approximately around a hundred, perhaps 500 dependencies that they all pull in from. Okay. So then you have the supply chains within each one of those, they've got their own set of humans and machines. And so it's a very large spaghetti beast of, of, of sort of dependence and actors and various identities that make up. >>Yeah. You're, you're describing a nightmarish, uh, scenario here. So, uh, so, so I definitely appreciate the setup there. It's a chain of custody nightmare. Yeah. >>Yes. Yeah. But it's also a wonderful thing because it's allowed us to develop in the paradigms that we have now very fast, you know, you can, you can, you can prototype and design and build and ship very fast, thanks to these tools. So they're wonderful. It's not to say that they're, you know, that there is a gift there, but security has arguably been left as a bit of an afterthought essentially. Okay. So security is always trying to it's at the back of the race. It's always trying to catch up with you. See what I mean? So >>Well, so is there a specific reason why this is particularly timely? Um, in, you know, when we, when we talk about deployment of cloud native applications, uh, something like 75% of what we think of is it is still on premesis, but definitely moving in the direction of what we loosely call cloud. Um, is why is this particularly timely? >>I think really because of the rampant adoption that we see. So, I mean, as you rightly say, a lot of, uh, it companies are still running on a, sort of a, more of a legacy model okay. Where deployments are more monolithic and statics. I mean, we've both been around for a while when we started, you would, you know, somebody would rack a server, they plug a network cable and you'd spend a week deploying the app, getting it to run, and then you'd walk away and leave it to a degree. Whereas now obviously that's really been turned on its head. So there is a, an element of not everybody has adopted this new paradigm that we have in development, but it is increasing, there is rapid adoption here. And, and many that aren't many that rather haven't made that change yet to, to migrate to a sort of a cloud type infrastructure. >>They certainly intend to, well, they certainly wished to, I mean, there's challenges there in itself, but it, I would say it's a safe bet to say that the prolific use of cloud technologies is certainly increasing as we see in all the time. So that also means the attack vectors are increasing as we're starting to see different verticals come into this landscape that we have. So it's not just your kind of a sort of web developer that are running some sort of web two.site. We have telcos that are starting to utilize cloud technology with virtual network functions. Uh, we have, um, health banking, FinTech, all of these sort of large verticals are starting to come into cloud and to utilize the cloud infrastructure model that that can save them money, you know, and it can make them, can make their develop more agile and, you know, there's many benefits. So I guess that's the main thing is really, there's a convergence of industries coming into this space, which is starting to increase the security risks as well. Because I mean, the security risks to a telco are a very different group to somebody that's developing a web platform, for example. >>Yeah. Yeah. Now you, you, uh, you mentioned, um, the sort of obvious perspective from the open source perspective, which is that a lot of this code is open source code. Um, and then I also, I assume that it makes a lot of sense for the open source community to attack this problem, because you're talking about so many things in that chain of custody that you described where one individual private enterprise is not likely to be able to come up with something that handles all of it. So, so what's your, what's your vision for how we address this issue? I know I've seen in, um, uh, some of the content that you've produced an allusion to this idea that it's very similar to the concept of a secure HTTP. And, uh, and so, you know, imagine a world where HTTP is not secure at any time. It's something we can't imagine yet. We're living in this parallel world where, where code, which is one of the four CS and cloud security, uh, isn't secure. So what do we do about that? And, and, and as you share that with us, I want to dive in as much as we can on six store explain exactly what that is and, uh, how you came up with this. >>Yes, yes. So, so the HTTP story's incredibly apt for where we are. So around the open source ecosystem. Okay. We are at the HTTP stage. Okay. So a majority of code is pulled in on trusted. I'm not talking about so much here, somebody like a red hat or, or a large sort of distributor that has their own sign-in infrastructure, but more sort of in the, kind of the wide open source ecosystem. Okay. The, um, amount of code that's pulled in on tested is it's the majority. Okay. So, so it is like going to a website, which is HTTP. Okay. And we sort of use this as a vision related to six store and other projects that are operating in this space where what happened effectively was it was very common for sites to run on HTTP. So even the likes of Amazon and some of the e-commerce giants, they used to run on HTTP. >>Okay. And obviously they were some of the first to, to, uh, deploy TLS and to utilize TLS, but many sites got left behind. Okay. Because it was cumbersome to get the TLS certificate. I remember doing this myself, you would have to sort of, you'd have to generate some keys, the certificate signing request, you'd have to work out how to run open SSL. Okay. You would then go to an, uh, a commercial entity and you'd probably have to scan your passport and send it to them. And there'll be this kind of back and forth. Then you'll have to learn how to configure it on your machine. And it was cumbersome. Okay. So a majority just didn't bother. They just, you know, they continue to run their, their websites on protected. What effectively happened was let's encrypt came along. Okay. And they disrupted that whole paradigm okay. >>Where they made it free and easy to generate, procure, and set up TLS certificates. So what happened then was there was a, a very large change that the kind of the zeitgeists changed around TLS and the expectations of TLS. So it became common that most sites would run HTTPS. So that allowed the browsers to sort of ring fence effectively and start to have controls where if you're not running HTTPS, as it stands today, as it is today is kind of socially unacceptable to run a site on HTTP is a bit kind of, if you go to HTTP site, it feels a bit, yeah. You know, it's kind of, am I going to catch a virus here? It's kind of, it's not accepted anymore, you know, and, and it needed that disruptor to make that happen. So we want to kind of replicate that sort of change and movement and perception around software signing where a lot of software and code is, is not signed. And the reason it's not signed is because of the tools. It's the same story. Again, they're incredibly cumbersome to use. And the adoption is very poor as well. >>So SIG stores specifically, where did this, where did this come from? And, uh, and, uh, what's your vision for the future with six? >>Sure. So six door, six doors, a lockdown project. Okay. It started last year, July, 2020 approximately. And, uh, a few people have been looking at secure supply chain. Okay. Around that time, we really started to look at it. So there was various people looking at this. So it's been speaking to people, um, various people at Purdue university in Google and, and other, other sort of people trying to address this space. And I'd had this idea kicking around for quite a while about a transparency log. Okay. Now transparency logs are actually, we're going back to HTTPS again. They're heavily utilized there. Okay. So when somebody signs a HTTPS certificate as a root CA, that's captured in this thing called a transparency log. Okay. And a transparency log is effectively what we call an immutable tamper proof ledger. Okay. So it's, it's kind of like a blockchain, but it's different. >>Okay. And I had this idea of what, if we could leverage this technology okay. For secure supply chain so that we could capture the provenance of code and artifacts and containers, all of these actions, these actors that I described at the beginning in the supply chain, could we utilize that to provide a tamper resistant publicly or DePaul record of the supply chain? Okay. So I worked on a prototype wherever, uh, you know, some, uh, a week or two and got something basic happening. And it was a kind of a typical open source story there. So I wouldn't feel right to take all of the glory here. It was a bit like, kind of, you look at Linux when he created a Linux itself, Linus, Torvalds, he had an idea and he shared it out and then others started to jump in and collaborate. So it's a similar thing. >>I, um, shared it with an engineer from Google's open source security team called Dan Lawrence. Somebody that I know of been prolific in this space as well. And he said, I'd love to contribute to this, you know, so can I work this? And I was like, yeah, sure though, you know, the, the more, the better. And then there was also Santiago professor from Purdue university took an interest. So a small group of people started to work on this technology. So we built this project that's called Rico, and that was effectively the transparency log. So we started to approach projects to see if they would like to, to utilize this technology. Okay. And then we realized there was another problem. Okay. Which was, we now have a storage for signed artifacts. Okay. A signed record, a Providence record, but nobody's signing anything. So how are we going to get people to sign things so that we can then leverage this transparency log to fulfill its purpose of providing a public record? >>So then we had to look at the signing tools. Okay. So that's where we came up with this really sort of clever technology where we've managed to create something called ephemeral keys. Okay. So we're talking about a cryptographic key pair here. Okay. And what we could do we found was that we could utilize other technologies so that somebody wouldn't have to manage the private key and they could generate keys almost point and click. So it was an incredibly simple user experience. So then we realized, okay, now we've got an approach for getting people to sign things. And we've also got this immutable, publicly audited for record of people signing code and containers and artifacts. And that was the birth of six store. Then. So six store was created as this umbrella project of all of these different tools that were catering towards adoption of signing. And then being able to provide guarantees and protections by having this transparency log, this sort of blockchain type technology. So that was where we really sort of hit the killer application there. And things started to really lift off. And the adoption started to really gather steam then. >>So where are we now? And where does this go into the future? One of the, one of the wonderful things about the open source community is there's a sense of freedom in the creativity of coming up with a vision and then collaborating with others. Eventually you run headlong into expectations. So look, is this going to be available for purchase in Q1? What's the, >>Yeah, I, I will, uh, I will fill you in there. Okay. So, so with six door there's, um, there's several different models that are at play. Okay. I'll give you the, the two predominant ones. So one, we plan, we plan to run a public service. Okay. So this will be under the Linux foundation and it'll be very similar to let's encrypt. So you as a developer, if you want to sign your container, okay. And you want to use six door tooling that will be available to you. There'll be non-profit three to use. There's no specialties for anybody. It's, it's there for everybody to use. Okay. And that's to get everybody doing the right thing in signing things. Okay. The, the other model for six stories, this can be run behind a firewall as well. So an enterprise can stand up their own six store infrastructure. >>Okay. So the transparency log or code signing certificates, system, client tools, and then they can sign their own artifacts and secure, better materials, all of these sorts of things and have their own tamper-proof record of everything that's happened. So that if anything, untoward happens such as a key compromise or somebody's identity stolen, then you've got a credible source of truth because you've got that immutable record then. So we're seeing, um, adoption around both models. We've seen a lot of open source projects starting to utilize six store. So predominantly key, um, Kubernetes is a key one to mention here they are now using six store to sign and verify their release images. Okay. And, uh, there's many other open-source projects that are looking to leverage this as well. Okay. And then at the same time, various people are starting to consider six door as being a, sort of an enterprise signing solution. So within red hat, our expectations are that we're going to leverage this in open shift. So open shift customers who wish to sign their images. Okay. Uh, they want to sign their conflicts that they're using to deploy within Kubernetes and OpenShift. Rather they can start to leverage this technology as open shift customers. So we're looking to help the open source ecosystem here and also dog food, this, and make it available and useful to our own customers at red hat. >>Fantastic. You know, um, I noticed the red hat in the background and, uh, and, uh, you know, I just a little little historical note, um, red hat has been there from the beginning of cloud before, before cloud was cloud before there was anything credible from an enterprise perspective in cloud. Uh, I, I remember in the early two thousands, uh, doing work with tree AWS and, uh, there was a team of red hat folks who would work through the night to do kernel level changes for the, you know, for the Linux that was being used at the time. Uh, and so a lot of, a lot of what you and your collaborators do often falls into the category of, uh, toiling in obscurity, uh, to a certain degree. Uh, we hope to shine light on the amazing work that you're doing. And, um, and I, for one appreciate it, uh, I've uh, I've, I've suffered things like identity theft and, you know, we've all had brushes with experiences where compromise insecurity is not a good thing. So, um, this has been a very interesting conversation. And again, X for the work that you do, uh, do you have any other, do you have any other final thoughts or, or, uh, you know, points that we didn't cover on this subject that come to mind, >>There is something that you touched upon that I'd like to illustrate. Okay. You mentioned that, you know, identity theft and these things, well, the supply chain, this is critical infrastructure. Okay. So I like to think of this as you know, there's, sir, they're serving, you know, they're solving technical challenges and, you know, and the kind of that aspect of software development, but with the supply chain, we rely on these systems. When we wake up each morning, we rely on them to stay in touch with our loved ones. You know, we are our emergency services, our military, our police force, they rely on these supply chains, you know, so I sort of see this as there's a, there's a bigger vision here really in protecting the supply chain is, is for the good of our society, because, you know, a supply chain attack can go very much to the heart of our society. You know, it can, it can be an attack against our democracies. So I, you know, I see this as being something that's, there's a humanistic aspect to this as well. So that really gets me fired up to work on this technology., >>it's really important that we always keep that perspective. This isn't just about folks who will be attending CubeCon and, uh, uh, uh, cloud con uh, this is really something that's relevant to all of us. So, so with that, uh, fantastic conversation, Luke, it's been a pleasure to meet you. Pleasure to talk to you, David. I look forward to, uh, hanging out in person at some point, whatever that gets me. Uh, so with that, uh, we will sign off from this cube conversation in anticipation of cloud con cube con 2021, north America. I'm Dave Nicholson. Thanks for joining us.

>>from around the >>globe it's the cube with >>coverage of Kublai >>Khan and Cloud Native Con Europe 2020 >>one virtual >>brought to you by red hat. The cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of Kublai khan 21 cloud native gone 21 virtual. I'm john for your host of the cube. We're here with a great segment of an entrepreneur also the creator and maintainer of fluent bit Eduardo Silva who's now the founder of Palihapitiya was a startup. Going to commercialize and have an enterprise grade fluent D influence bit Eduardo. Great to have you on. Thanks for coming on the cube >>during the place for having me here. So I'm pretty happy to share the news about the crew and whenever you want, >>exciting trends, exciting trends happening with C N C f koo Kahne cloud native cloud native a lot of data, a lot of management, a lot of logging, a lot of observe ability, a lot of end user um contributions and enterprise adoption. So let's get into it first by give us a quick update on fluent D anything upcoming to highlight. >>Yeah, well fluent is actually turning two years old right now. So it's the more metric project that we have a lot of management and processing in the market. And we're really happy to see that the sides are project that was started 10 years ago, its adoption. You can see continues growing ecosystem from a planning perspective and companies adopting the technology that that is really great. So it's very overwhelming and actually really happy to take this project and continue working with companies, individuals and and right now what is the position where we are now with through And these are part of the Roma is like one of the things that people is facing not because of the tool because people have every time there has more data, more Metro services the system are scaling up is like about performance, right? And performance is critical if you're slowing down data processing actually you're not getting the data at the right time where you need it right. Nobody's people needs real time query is real time analysis. So from a security perspective we're going to focus a lot on everything that is about performance I would say for this year and maybe the other one, I would say that we won't see many new futures around fluently itself as as a project so we'll be mostly about back texting and performance improvements. >>Yeah, I definitely want to dig in with you on the data and logging challenges around kubernetes especially with and to end workflows and there's the different environments that sits in the middle of. But first before we get there, just take a minute to explain for the folks um not that savvy with fluent bit. What is fluent bit real quick, explain what it is. >>Okay, so I will start with a quick story about this, so when we started flowing the, we envision that at some point I'm talking about six years ago, right, all this IOT train or embedded or h will be available and for that you we got back to heavy right? If you have a constraint environment or you want to process data in a more faster way without all the capabilities at that time we say that he might not be suitable for that. So the thing is okay and it was not longer like a single software piece right? We want to say through in this an ecosystem, right? And as part of the ecosystem we have sck where people can connect applications fluid the but also we say we need like a flu Indie but that could be lightweight and faster. Burundi is reading ruby right? And the critical part in C. But since it's written ruby of course there's some process calls on how do you process the data and how much you can scale? Right. So we said if you're going to dig into embedded or small constrained environment, let's write a similar solution. But in C language so we can optimize a memory, can optimize scenario and all this kind of um needs will be will will be effective, right? And we started to spread called fluent bed and through a bit it's like a nowadays like a lightweight version of Wendy, it has started for the Marilyn knows, but after a few years people from the cloud space, I'm talking about containers, kubernetes, they started to ask for more futures for flowing it because they wanted they have influence, but also they wanted to have flowing better than because of it was lively and nowadays we can see that what fluent established the market and true indeed, we're getting around $2 million dollars every single day. So nowadays the attraction of the break is incredible. And it's mostly used to um want to collect logs from the files from system be and for most of coordinated environment disabled, process all this information on a pen, meta data and solve all the problem of how do I collect my data? How do I make sure that the data has the right context meta data and I'm able to deliver this data. So a central place like a job provider or any kind of storage. >>That's great. And I love the fact that's written C, which kind of gives the, I'll say it more performance on the code. Less overhead, get deeper closer um and people No, no, see it's high performance, quick, quick stats. So how old is the project through a bit, What version are you on? >>Uh, a little bit. It's, I'm not sure it is turning six or seven this year, 96. It's been around >>for a while. >>Yeah, yeah. We just released this this week, one at 73 right. We have done more than 100 releases actually really settled two and it's pretty past sometimes we have releases every 23 weeks. So the operation, the club medical system is quite fast. People once and more future more fixes and they don't want to wait for a couple of months for the next release. They wanted to have the continue image right away to test it out and actually sends away as a project. We worked with most of providers like AWS Microsoft actor google cloud platform, the demon for this fixes and improvements are in a weekly basis. >>You guys got a lot of props, I was checking around on the internet, you guys are getting strong um, reviews on logging for kubernetes with the couple releases ago, you had higher performance improvements for google AWS logged in postgres equal and other environments. Um but the question that I'm getting and I'm hearing from folks is, you know, I have end to end workflows and they've been steady. They've been strong. But as more data comes in and more services are connecting to it from network protocols, two Other cloud services, the complexity of what was once a straight straightforward workflow and to end is impacted by this new data. How do you guys address that? How would you speak to that use case? >>Well, for for us data we have taken approaches. Data for us is agnostic on the way that it comes from but that it comes from and the format that comes from for for example, if you talk about the common uses case that we have now is like data come from different formats. Every single developer use the all looking format come from different channels, TCP file system or another services. So it is very, very different. How do we get this data? And that is a big challenge. Right? How do we take data from different sources, different format and you try to unify this internal and then if you're going to talk for example to less exert let's say you Jason you're going to talk to africa, they have their own binary protocol. So we are kind of the backbone that takes all the data transfer data and try to adapt to the destination expected payload from a technical perspective. Yeah, is really challenging. Is really challenging also that Nowadays, so two years ago people was finding processing, I don't know 500,000 messages per second, But nowadays they won 10, 20 40,000. So prime architecture perspective Yeah, there are many challenges and and I think that the teamwork from the maintaining this and with companies has provided a lot of value, a lot of value. And I think that the biggest proof here is that the adoption like adoption and big adoption, you have more banks reported more enhancement requests. All right. So if I get >>this right, you got different sources of data collection issues. If you look on the front end and then you got some secret sauce with bit fluent, I mean uh inside the kubernetes clusters um and then you deliver it to multiple services and databases and cloud services. That that right. Is that the key? The key value is that is that the key value proposition? Did I get that right with fluent bit? >>Mhm. Yeah, I would say most of the technical implementation when the of the value of the technical implementation, I would say that is towards being the vendor neutral. Right? So when you come, when you go to the market and you go to the talk to bank institution hospital form and if the company right, most of them are facing this concept of bender looking right, they use a Bender database but you have to get married. So they're tooling, right? And I'm not going to mention any inventor name. Right? Actually it's very fun. Well for example, the business model, this company that start with S and ends with swung right? For example is you pay as much money so you pay as much money compared to the data that you ingested. But the default tools in just the whole data. But in reality if you go to the enterprise they say yeah. I mean just in all my data into Splunk or X provider right? But from 100 that I'm interesting, which I'm paying for, I'm just using this service to query at least 20 of the data. So why I mean just in this 80 extra I didn't get it right. That's why I want to send and this is real use case there's this language is really good for where is analyzed the data But they said yeah, 80 of my data is just a five data. I will need it maybe in a couple of months just I want to send it to Amazon history or any kind of other a archive service. So users, the value that says is that I want to have a mentor neutral pipeline which me as a user, I went to this side work went to send data, went to send it and also I can come to my bills. Right? And I think that is the biggest value. So you can go to the market. They will find maybe other tools for logging or tools for Matrix because there's a ton of them. But I think that none of them can say we are gender neutral. Not all of them can offer this flexibility to the use, right? So from a technical language performance but from an end user is being the neutrality. >>Okay. So I have to ask you then here in the C n C F projects that are going on and the community around um um fluent bit, you have to have those kinds of enhancements integrations, for instance, for not only performance improvement, but extensive bility. So enterprises there, they want everything right. They make things very >>complicated. They're very >>complicated infrastructure. So if they want some policy they want to have data ingestion policies or take advantage of no vendor lock in, how is the community responding? How did what's your vision for helping companies now? You've got your new venture and you got the open source project, How does this evolve? How do you see this evolving eduardo? Because there is a need for use cases that don't need all the data, but you need all the data to get some of the data. Right. So it's a you have a new new >>paradigm of >>coding and you want to be dynamic and relevant. What's the how do you see this evolving? >>Yeah. Actually going to give you some spoilers. Right. So some years before report. Yeah. So users has this a lot of they have a lot of problems how to collect the data processing data and send the data. We just told them right, Performance is a continuous improvement, Right? Because you have always more data, more formats, that's fine. But one critical thing that people say, hey, you say, hey, I want to put my business logic in the pipeline. So think about this if you have to embed we are the platform for data. Right? But we also provide capabilities to do data processing because you can grab the data or you can do custom modifications over the data. One thing that we did like a year two years ago is we added this kind of stream processing capabilities, can you taste equal for Kaka? But we have our own sequel engine influence them. So when the data is flowing without having any data banks, any index or anything, we can do data aggregation. You can, you can put some business logic on it and says for all the data that matches this pattern, stand it to a different destination, otherwise send it to caracas plan or elastic. So we have, this is what we have now. Extreme processing capabilities. Now what is the spoiler and what we're going next. Right now there are two major areas. One of them is distributed. Extreme processing right? The capabilities to put this intelligence on the age, on the age I'm referring to for example, a cooper needs note right or constrained environment, right? Communities on the age is something that is going on. There are many companies using that approach but they want to put some intelligence and data processing where the data is being generated. Because there is one problem when you have more data and you want to create the data, you have to wait and to centralize all the data in the database for your service. And there's a legend see right, millions sometimes hours because data needs to be in Mexico. But what about it? To have 100 of notes, but each one is already right, influenced it. Why you don't run the queries there. That is one of the features that we have. And well now talking from the challenges from spoil perspectives, people says, okay, I love this pipeline. I noticed Lambert has a political architecture but the language see it's not my thing, right? I don't want to go and see. Nobody likes see that we are honest about that. And there are many mass words about security or not just nothing, which is true, right? It's really easy to mess up things and see. Right? So, and we said, okay, so now our next level, it's like we're going to provide this year the ability to write your own plug ins in Western webassembly. So with the web is simply interface. You can run your own pregnancy goal, rust or any kind of weapon sending support language and translate that implementation to native. Wasn't that fluent that will understand. So C as a language won't be with one being longer uploaded for you as a developer. As a company that wants to put more business logic into the bike. Well that is one of the things that are coming up and really we already have some docs but they're not ready to show. So maybe we can expect something for us at the end of this year. >>Great stuff by the way, from a c standpoint us, old timers like me used to program and see, and not a lot of C courses being taught, but if you do know see it's very valuable. But again, to your point, the developers are are focused on coding the apps, not so much the underlying. So I think that's that's key. I will like to ask you one final question of water before we wrap up, how do you deploy fluid bid? What's the is it is that you're putting it inside the cluster? Is there is that scripts, What's the what's the architecture real quick? Give us a quick overview of the architecture. >>Okay, so that it's not just for a classroom, you can run it on any machine. Windows, Linux, IBM Yeah, and that doesn't need to be a kubernetes. Classic. Right? When we created to invade Copernicus was quite new at the same time. So if you talk about kubernetes deploys as a demon set at the moment is pretty much a part that runs on every note like an agent. Right? Uh, all you can run necessarily on any kind of machine. Oh and one thing before we were, I just need to mention something that from the spoil it. But because it's just getting, we're having many news these days. Is that fluently used to be mostly for logging right? And influence the specifically project. We've got many people from years ago saying, you know what? I'm losing my agent for logging to a bed but I have my agents for metrics and sometimes this is quite heavy to have multiple agents on your age. So now flowing bed is extending the capabilities to deal with native metrics. Right. The first version will be available about this week in cuba come right. We will be able to process host matrix for application metrics and send them to permit use with open matrix format in a native way. So we extended the political system to be a better citizen with open metrics and in the future also with open telemetry, which is a hot thing that is coming up on this month. >>Everyone loves metrics. That's super important. Having the data Is really, really important as day two operations and get all this stuff is happening. I wanna thank you for coming on and sharing the update and congratulations on. The new venture will keep following you and look good for the big launch but fluent bit looking good. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you so much help governments. >>Okay this is the cubes coverage of Kublai khan 21 cloud Native Con 21 virtual soon we'll be back in real life at the events extracting the signal from the noise. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

>>from around the globe. >>It's the cube with coverage of Kublai khan and cloud Native >>Con, Europe 2021 Virtual >>brought to you by >>red hat, cloud >>Native Computing foundation >>and ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of coupon 21 cloud native con 21 part of the C N C s annual event this year. It's Virtual. Again, I'm john Kerry host of the cube and we have two great guests from the C N C. F. Cheryl Hung VP of ecosystems and Katie Manji who's the ecosystem advocate for C N C F. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you. I wish we were in person soon, maybe in the fall. Cheryl Katie, thanks for coming on. >>Um, definitely hoping to be back in person again soon, but john great to see you and great to be back on the >>cube. You know, I have to say one of the things that really surprised me is the resilience of the community around what's been happening with the virtual in the covid. Actually, a lot of people have been, um, you know, disrupted by this, but you know, the consensus is that developers have used to been working remotely and virtually in a home and so not too much disruption, but a hell of a lot of productivity. You're seeing a lot more cloud native, um, projects, you're seeing a lot more mainstreaming and the enterprise, you're starting to see cloud growth, just a really kind of nice growth. And we've been saying for years, rising tide floats, all boats, Cheryl, but this year you're starting to see real mainstream adoption with cloud native and this has really been part of the work of the community you guys have done. So what's your take on this? Because we're going to be coming out of this Covid pretty soon. There's a post covid light at the end of the tunnel. What's your view? >>Yeah, definitely, fingers crossed on that. I mean, I would love Katie to give her view on this. In fact, because she came from Conde Nast and American Express, both huge companies that were adopting have adopted cloud Native successfully. And then in the middle of the pandemic, in the middle of Covid, she joined CN CF. So Katie really has a view from the trenches and Katie would love to hear your thoughts. >>Yeah, absolutely. Uh, definitely cloud native adoption when it comes to the tooling has been more permanent in the enterprises. And that has been confirmed of my role at American Express. That is the role I moved from towards C N C F. But the more surprising thing is that we see big companies, we see banks and financial organization that are looking to adopt open source. But more importantly, they're looking for ways to either contribute or actually to direct it more into these areas. So from that perspective, I've been pretty much at the nucleus of enterprise of the adoption of cloud Native is definitely moving, it's slow paced, but it's definitely forward moving as well. Um and now I think while I'm in the role with C N C F as an ecosystem advocate and leading the end user community, there has been definitely uh the community is growing um always intrigued to find out more about the cloud Native usage is one of the things that I find quite intriguing is the fact that not one cloud native usage, like usage of covering just one platform, which is going to be called, the face is going to be the same. So it's always intriguing to find new use cases, find those extremist cases as well, that it really pushes the community forward. >>I want to do is unpack. The end user aspect of this has been a hallmark of the CNC F for years, always been a staple of the organization. But this year, more than ever it's been, seems to be prominent as people are integrating in what about the growth? I mean from last year this year and the use and user ecosystem, how have you guys seen the growth? Is there any highlights because have any stats and or observations around how the ecosystem is growing around the end user piece? >>Sure, absolutely. I mean, I can talk directly about C N C F and the C N C F. End user community, much like everything else, you know, covid kind of slowed things down, so we're kind of not entirely surprised by that, But we're still going over 2020 and in fact just in the last few months have brought in some really, really big names like Peloton, Airbnb, Citibank, um, just some incredible organizations who are, who have really adopted card native, who have seen the success and the benefits of it. And now we're looking to give back to the community, as Katie said, get involved with open source and be more than just a passive consumer of the technologies, but actually become leaders in their own right, >>Katie talk about the dynamic of developers that end user organizations. I mean, you have been there, you're now you've been on both sides of the table if you will not to the sides of the table, it's more like a round table if you will, but community driven. But traditional, uh, end user organizations, not the early adopters, not the hyper scale is, but the ones now are really embedding hybrid, um, are changing how I t to how modern applications being built. That's a big theme in these mainstream organizations. What's the dynamic going on? What's your view? >>I think for any organization, the kind of the core, what moves the organization towards cloud Native is um pretty much being ahead of your competitors. And now we have this mass of different organization of the cloud native and that's why we see more kind of ice towards this area. So um definitely in this perspective when it comes to the technology aspect, companies are looking to deploy complex application in an easier manner, especially when it comes to pushing them to production system securely faster. Um and continuously as well. They're looking to have this competitive edge when it comes to how can they quickly respond to customer feedback? And as well they're looking for this um hybrid element that has been, has been talked about. Again, we're talking about enterprise is not just about public cloud, it's about how can we run the application security and getting both an element of data centers or private cloud as well. And now we see a lot of projects which are balancing around that age but more importantly there is adoption and where there's adoption, there is a feedback loop and that's how which represents the organic growth. >>That's awesome. Cheryl like you to define what you mean when you say end user driven open source, what does that mean? >>Mm This is a really interesting dynamic that I've seen over the last couple of years. So what we see is that more and more of the open source project, our end users who who are solving their own problems and creating their own projects and donating these back to the community. An early example of this was Envoy and lift and Yeager from Uber but Spotify also recently donated backstage, which is a developer portal which has really taken off. We've also got examples from Intuit Donating Argo. Um I'm sure there are some others that I've just forgotten. But the really interesting thing I see about this is that class classically right. Maybe a few years ago, if you were an end user organization, you get involved through a vendor, you'd go to a red hat or something and say, hey, you fix this on my behalf because you know that's what I'm paying you to do. Whereas what I see now is and user saying we want to keep this expertise in house and we want to be owners of our own kind of direction and our own fate when it comes to these open source projects. And that's been a big driver for this trend of open source and user driven, open source. >>It's really the open model is just such a great thing. And I think one of the interesting thing is that fits in with a lot of people who want to work from mission driven companies, but here there's actually a business benefit as you pointed out as in terms of the dynamic of bringing stuff to the community. This is interesting. I'm sure that the ability to do more collaboration, um, either hiring or contributing kind of increases when you have this end user dynamic because that's a pretty big decision to donate and bring something into the open source. What's the playbook though? If I'm sitting in an end user organization like american express Katie or a big company, say, hey, you know, we really developed this really killer use cases niche to us, but we want to bring it to the community. What do they do? Is there like a, like a manager? Do they knock on someone's door? Zara repo is, I mean, how does someone, I mean, how does an end user get this done? >>Mm. Um, I think one of the best resources out there is called the to do group, which is a organization underneath the Linux foundation. So it's kind of a sister group to C N C F, which is about open source program offices. And how do you formalize such an open source program? Because it's pretty easy to say, oh well just put something on get hub. But that's not the end of the story, right? Um, if you want to actually build a community, if you want other people to contribute, then you do actually have to do more than just drop it and get up and walk away. So I would say that if you are an end user company and you have created something which scratches your own itch and you think other people could benefit from it then definitely come. And like you could email me, you could email Chris and chick who is the ceo of C N C F and just get in touch and sort of ask around about what are the things that you could do in terms of what you have to think about the licensing, How do you develop a community governance program, um, trademark issues, all of these things. >>It's interesting how open source is growing so much now, chris has got so much action going on. New verticals are opening up, you know, so, so much action Cheryl you had posted on the internet predictions for cloud native, which I found interesting because there's so much action going on, you have to break things out into pillars, tech devops and ecosystem, each one kind of with a slew event of key trends. So take us through the mindset, why break it out like that? You got tech devops and ecosystem tradition that was all kind of bundled in one. Why? Why the pillars? And is it because there's so much action, what's, what's the basis behind the prediction? >>Um so originally this was just a giant list of things I had seen from talking to people and reading around and seeing what people are talking about on social media. Um And when, once I invested at these 10, I thought about what, what does this actually mean for the people who are going to look at this list and what should they care about? So I see tech trends as things related to tools, frameworks. Um, perhaps architects I see develops as people who are more as a combination of process, things that a combination of process and people and culture best practices and then ecosystem was kind of anything else broader than that. Things that happened across organizations. So you can definitely go to my twitter, you can go to at boy Chevelle, O I C H E R Y L and take a look at this and This is my list of 10. I would love to hear from you whether you agree with it, whether you think there are other things that I've missed or what would your >>table. I love. I love the top. Well, first of all I think this is very relevant. The one that I would ask you on is more rust and cloud native. That's the number one item. Um, I think cross cloud is definitely totally happening, I think people are really starting to think about that and so I'd love to get your comments on that. But I think the thing that jumped out at me was the devops piece because this is a trend that I've been seeing a lot more certainly even in academic institutions, for folks in school, right? Um going to college for computer science and engineering. This idea of, sorry, large scale, cloud is not so much an IT practice, it's much more of a cloud native mindset. So I think this idea of of ops so much more about scale. I use SRE only because I can't think of a better word around it and certainly the edge pieces with kubernetes, I think this is the, I think the biggest story to me that's where all the action seems to be when I talk to people around what they're working on in terms of training new people on boarding and what not Katie, you're shaking your head, you're like Yeah, what's your thoughts? Yeah, >>I have definitely been uh through all of these stages from having a team where the develops, I think it's more of a culture of like a pattern to adopt within an organization more than anything. So I've been pre develops within develops and actually during the evolution of it where we actually added an s every team as well. Um I think having these cultural changes with an organization, they are necessary, especially they want to iterate iterate quicker and actually deliver value to the customers with minimal agency because what it actually does there is the collaboration between teams which were initially segregated. And that's why I think there is a paradigm nowadays which is called deficit ops, which actually moves security more to its left. This has been very popular, especially in the, in the latest a couple of months. Lots of talks around it and even there is like a security co located event of Yukon just going to focus on that mainly. Um, but as well within the Devil's area, um, one of the models that has been quite permanent has been get ups as well, which pretty much uses the power of gIT repositories to describe the state of the applications, how it actually should be within the production system and within the cloud native ecosystem. There are two main tools that pretty much leave this area and there's going to be Argo City which has been donated by, into it, which is our end user And we have flux as well, which has been donated by we've works and both of these projects currently are within the incubation stage, which pretty much by default um showcases there is a lot of adoption from the organizations um more than 100 of for for some of them. So there is a wider adoption um, and everything I would like to mention is the get ups working group which has emerged I think between que con europe and north America last year and that again is more to define a manifest of how exactly get expert and should be adopted within organizations. So there is a lot of, I would say initiatives and this is further out they confirmed with the tooling that we have within the ecosystem. >>That's really awesome insight. I want to just, if you don't mind follow up on that, why is getups so important right now, Is it because the emphasis of security is that the emphasis of more scale, Is it just because it's pretty much kid was okay just because storing it over there, Is it because there's so much more inspections are going on around it? I mean code reviews have been going on for a long time. What's what's the big deal? Why is it so hot right now? In your opinion? >>I think there is definitely a couple of aspects that are quite important. You mentioned security, that's definitely one of them with the get ups battery. And there is a pool model rather than a push model. So you have the actual tool, for example, our great city of flux watching for repository and if any changes are identified is going to pull those changes automatically. So the first thing that we actually can see from this model is that we always will have a delta between what's within our depositors and the production system. Usually if you have a pool model, you can pull it uh can push the changes towards death staging environment but not always the production because you have the change window sometimes with the get ups model, you'll always be aware of what's the Dell. Can you have quite a nice way to visualize that especially for your city, which has the UI as well as well with the get ups pattern, there is less necessity to share the credentials with the actual pipeline tool. All of because Argo flux there are natively build around communities, all the secrets are going to be residing within the cluster. There is no need to share any extra credentials or an extra permissions with external tools as well. There are scale, there is again with kids who have historical data points which allows us to easily revert um to stable points of the applications in the past. So multiple, multiple benefits I would say, but definitely secured. I think it's one of the main one and it has been talked about quite a lot as well. >>A lot of these end user stories revolve around these dynamics and the ones you guys are promoting and from your members as well as in the community at large is I hate to use the word day two operations, but that really is the issue like okay, we're up and running. I want more automation. This is again tops kind of vibe here where it's like okay we gotta go troubleshoot all this, but it should be working as more stuff comes in. This becomes more and more the dynamic is that is that because of just more edges, more things, more devices, what's what's the what's the push behind all these stories around this automation and day to operation things? What do you guys think? >>I think, I think the expectations are getting higher and higher to be honest, a few years ago it was enough to use containers and start using the barest minimum, you know, to orchestrate those containers. But now what we see is that, you know, it's easy to choose the technology, it's easy to install it and even configure it. But as you said, john those data operations are really, really hard. For example, one of the ones that we've seen up and coming and we care about from CNCF is kubernetes on the edge. And we see this as enabling telco use cases and 5G and IOT and really, really broad, difficult use cases that just a few years ago would have been nice on impossible, Katie, your zone, Katie Katie, you also talk about edge. Right? >>Absolutely. I think I I really like to watch some of the talks that keep going, especially given by the big organizations that have to manage thousands or tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of customers. And they have to deliver a cluster to these to these teams. Now, from their point of view, they pretty much have to manage clusters at scale. There is definitely the edge out there and they really kind of pushing the technology towards how can we get closer to the physical devices within the customers? Kind of uh, let's say bubble or area in surface. So age has been definitely something which has been moving a lot when it comes to the cloud native ecosystem. We've had a lot of projects moving to towards the incubation stage, carefree as has been there, um, for for a while and again, has a lot of adoption is known for its stability. But another thing that I would like to mention is that now currently we have a lot of projects that are age focus but within some box, so there is again, a lot of potential if there's gonna be a higher demand for this, I would expect this tools move from sandbox to incubation and even graduation. So that's definitely something which, uh, it's moving and there is dynamism around it. >>Well, Cheryl kid, you guys are awesome, love the work you're doing. I gotta ask the final question since you brought it up about the expectations. Cheryl, if you guys could both end the segment with the comment around expectations as the industry and companies and developers and participants continue to grow. What, what's changed with C N C F koo Kahne cloud, native khan as the expectation has been growing and the stakes are higher too, frankly, I mean you've got security, you mentioned these things edge get up, so you start to see the maturation of this ecosystem, what's new and what's expected of you guys, What do you see and how are you guys organizing? >>I think we can definitely say the ecosystem has matured a lot compared to a few years ago. Same with CNTF, same with Cuba con, I think the very first cubic on I went to was Berlin, which was about 1800 people. Um, the kind of mind boggling to see how much, how much it's grown since then. I mean one of the things that we try and do is to expand the number of people who can reach the community. So for example, we launched kubernetes community days and we launched, that means community organized events in africa, for example, for people who couldn't come to large events in north America or europe, um we also launching things to help students. I actually love talking to students because quite often now you talk to them and they say, oh, I've never run software in anything other than a container. You're like, yeah, well this was a new thing, this is brand new a few years ago and now you can be 18 and have never tried anything else. So it's pretty amazing. But yeah, there's definitely, there's always space to go to the community. >>Yeah, once you go cloud native, it's like, you know, like you've never load Lennox on them server before. I mean, what, what's going on? Get your thoughts as expectations go higher And certainly there's more in migration, not only for young folks because they're jumping into this was that engineering meets computer science is now cross discipline. You're seeing scale, you mentioned scaling up those are huge factors, you've got younger, you got cross training, you got cybersecurity and you've got Fin tech ops that's chris is working on so much is happening. What, what, what you guys keep up with your, how you gonna raise the ball? >>Absolutely. I think there's definitely technology moving forward, but I think nowadays there is a more need for actual end user stories while at the beginning of cube cons there is a lot of focus on the technical aspects. How can you fix this particular problem of deploying between two clusters are deploying at scale. There is like a lot of technical aspects nowadays they're looking for the stories because as I mentioned before, not one platform is gonna be the same when it comes to cloud native and I think there's still, the community is still trying to look for some patterns or some standards and we actually can see like especially when it comes to the open standards, we can see this moving within um the observe abilities like that application delivery will have for example cross plane and Que Bella we have open metrics and open tracing as well, which focuses on observe ability and all of the interfaces that we had around um, Cuban directory service men and so forth. All of these pretty much try to bring a benchmark, making it easier to integrate these special use cases um when it comes to actual extreme technology kind of solutions that you need to provide and um, I was mentioning the end user stories that are there more in demand nowadays mainly because these are very, very necessary from the community like for example the six or the project maintainers, they require feedback to actually move forward. And as part of that, I would like to mention that we've recently soft launched the injuries lounge, which really focuses on this particular aspect of end user stories. We try to pretty much question our end users and really understand what really moved them to adopt, coordinative, what keeps them on this path and what like future challenges they would like to um to tackle or are they facing the moment I would like to solve in the future. So we're trying to create the speed back home between the inducers and the projects out there. So I think this is something which needs to be a bit more closely together these two spheres, which currently are segregated, but we're trying to just solve that. >>Also you guys do great work, great job. Cheryl wrap us up real, take a minute to put a plug in for the C. N. C. F. In the ecosystem. What's the fashion this year? What's hot? What's the trend? What are you guys doing? Share some quick update on what's going on the ecosystem from your perspective? >>Yeah, I mean the ecosystem, even though I just said that we're maturing, you know, the growth has not stopped now, what we're seeing is these as Casey was saying, you know, more specific use cases, even bigger, even more demanding environments, even more kind of crazy use cases. I mean I love the story from the U. S. Department of Defense about putting kubernetes on their fighter jets and putting ston fighter jets, you know, it's just absurd to think about it, but I would say definitely come and be part of the community, share your stories, share what you know, help other people um if you are end user of these technologies then go to see NCF dot io slash and user and just come and be part of our community, you know, meet your peers and hear what everybody else is doing >>well. Having kubernetes and stu on jets, that's the Air Force, I would call that technical edge Katie to you know, bring, bring back the edge carol kitty, thank you so much for sharing the inside ecosystem is robust. Rising tide is floating all the boats as we always say here in the cube, it's been great to watch and continue to watch the rise. I think it's just the beginning, we're starting to see post pandemic visibility cloud native, more standards, more visibility into the economics and value and great to see the ecosystem rising up with the end users as well. So congratulations and thanks for coming up. >>Thank you so much, john it's a pleasure, appreciate >>it. Thank you for having us, john >>Great to have you on. I'm john for with the cube here for Coop Con Cloud, Native Con 21 virtual soon we'll be back in real life. Thanks for watching. Mhm.

from around the globe it's thecube with coverage of kubecon and cloudnativecon north america 2020 virtual brought to you by red hat the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners welcome to thecube's coverage of kubecon and cloudnativecon 2020 the virtual edition i'm lisa martin i've got a couple of guests with me here today please welcome ken holtz the principal partner manager for red hat hey ken and welcome to the cube hi lisa thank you and benito lopez is also joining us senior manager of business development and the solutions provider services provider vertical excuse me f5 from f5 hi benito how are how are you i'm good you're in san francisco thank you all right yes we're all very socially distanced so guys kubecon cloudnativecon the virtual version here still the opportunity to engage with a lot of leaders in the community folks interested let's go ahead and start with you as we look at this very dynamic environment in which we are all living and working organizations are under even more pressure to deliver the information and the services and the experiences that customers demand internal customers external customers i know f5 is known for load balancing and load balancing is one of those tools that can certainly help with that but talk to us about what's kind of going on what's new in that respect from fbi's perspective we have evolved into an adaptive application services company what do i mean by adaptive application services it's the ability to scale secure and protect application applications wherever they may recite whether they're in the far edge whether in the cloud whether they're on premises and the ability to also observe the the analytics and telemetry emanating from those applications to be able to act upon what we see in that space so when we talk about service based architecture it's all about no longer being reliant on a in the on a single vendor on a monolithic application set of services or on what they call a vertical stack appliance service based architecture means you want it to be a scalable architecture whereby you can add the dock subtract um different types of network functions in 5g so the way this is going to be depend the the key enabler for a services-based architecture is going to be container based services whereby services will no longer just be applications are going to be disaggregated into micro services right in container clusters and f5's role here is to be able to scale and secure that traffic into a service provider environment more importantly our role is to turn a container-based architecture which is not service provider grade into a service provider-grade architecture which means we can actually see the services provide specific protocols into that container cluster and more importantly um scale and secure and apply the right policies within a containerized environment again containers is all about a service base is part of a service based architecture and containers today especially on kubernetes need a service provider grade platform of which we provide that market all right so kubernetes seeing a lot of activity with telco customers what are some of the challenges major we'll stick with you for another few seconds here what are some of the challenges that you're seeing that you're helping customers to work through well one is the first challenge is how do you make kubernetes telco great that's the first challenge so what f5 does is we actually um act as the ingress and egress point into kubernetes environment whereby we see telco as we were able to scale and secure telco specific protocols that kubernetes today um does not support and we work closely with red hat in that space um together with their open shift architecture to open shift platform cut we work with red hat today uh with um uh with respect to the openshift platform and that helps the service provider have a telco cloud-like platform that is um scalable that is secure and that is highly performant and low-latent all right so speaking of red hat let's bring ken into the conversation here kind of same question for you as we look at the activity uh in telco with respect to kubernetes let's talk to some of the ways that that red hat is helping customers address some of the challenges so that they can leverage that technology to to really move their businesses forward especially in such a dynamic environment right now thanks lisa so red hat has a goal of ensuring our openshift platform is ready and hardened enough to enable telco workloads for our 5g platform while we work with other partners f5 has been one of our key partners in this particular space for the first time openshift networking is natively integrating seamlessly with the commercial load balancer from f5 making it ready for telco 5g this is a co-engineered co-developed solution a new piece of software that we've implemented together oven kubernetes is enterprise and service provider ready we believe ovn will help significantly with latency overall and this is an evolution we have our first implementation of this now and we're working now on making this even more cloud-native which means making it more performant more resilient and even more capable and ready for telco grade requirements so can continuing on with you for a second in terms of how you're working together with customers to maybe customize or adapt the technologies can you talk to me a little bit about some of the customer feedback like some of those challenges that they're facing in today's environment which as we know is so dynamic and probably going to be for a while what's the customer like influence in terms of the partnership and the code development well so my focus at red hat is on partnership and the ecosystem partner management team allows red hat to meet the needs of a growing number of red hat partners the team serves as a partner's single point of contact for product questions roadmap updates engineering interlocks and general guidance for how to partner with red hat and with open source communities to achieve their business goals so uh we we're we're helping the end customers through our tight partnership imagine a lot of collaboration there so benito let's talk from your perspective from f5's perspective on the partnership and the collaboration that you have together and with your customers to help them be successful well ecosystems partnerships are going to be critical for our success as a company and more importantly as service providers today especially as i mentioned earlier around with respect to us they migrate and transform their networks from 4g to 5g um the architecture is going to horizontalize it's going to require a telcograde type of infrastructure manager a telcograde os and at the same time it's going to require a telco grade um and security platform and therefore red hat with its um them with them being what we call as a leader in open source and open and containers with their openshift platform we see them as a vital partner in working with service providers to transform their networks into a teleco great containerized environment right so as they migrate into um as they migrate from just software virtualization to containerization which is going to be critical for 5g um red hat is a key partner for us to work with to ensure that their network is their containerized network is telego-grade and highly performant and secure excellent thanks and ken back to you i know the audience would like to hear kind of some more specifics on the collaboration between you guys and also kind of beyond what they can see what's coming down the pipe in terms of open source projects or kind of beyond that yeah so some of some examples of our work together uh would include joint roadmap alignment uh we're very closely tied together on on the roadmap front early pre-pre-ga enablement early access to code and we have a goal of achieving certification here so we'd like to to achieve certification which provides assurance of compatibility and support avoids vendor lock-in and dispels any security concerns that customers may have excellent well guys anything else that you want to add here to the audience that is attending this virtual edition of kubecon cloud nativecon 2020 benito to you well i'd like to just say that as you migrate to as your network begins to transform and you are looking at the containerized architecture f5 and red hat are your best partners to have that telco grade architecture infrastructure in place i like that both statement very well put ken less thoughts from you i think benito said it best and i just wanted to say thanks a lot for having having us and this has been fun excellent guys thank you for sharing what's going on with the f5 red hat partnership how you're helping customers in telco with kubernetes the challenges there to alleviate ken bonito thanks for joining me on thecube today thank you thank you for my guests i'm lisa martin and you're watching thecube you

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with coverage of coop con and cloud native con North America, 2020 virtual brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. >>Hey, welcome back, everybody Jeffrey here with the cube coming to you from our Palo Alto studios today with our ongoing coverage of coupon cloud native con North America, 2020. It's not really North America, it's virtual like everything else, but you know that the European show earlier in the summer, and this is the, this is the late fall show. So we're excited to welcome in our very next two guests. Uh, first joining us from Madrid. Spain is Miguel Perez, Kaleena. He is a principal product manager from red hat, Miguel. Great to see you. >>Good to see you happy to be in the cube. >>Yes. Great. Well welcome. And joining us from North Carolina is rich Sharples. He is a senior director, product management of red hat. Rich. Great to see you. >>Yeah, likewise, thanks for inviting me again. >>So we're talking about Java today and before we kind of jump into it, you know, in preparing for this rich, I saw an interview that you did, I think earlier about halfway through the year, uh, celebrating the 25th anniversary of Java and talking about the 25th anniversary Java. And before we kind of get into the future, I think it's worthwhile to take a look back at, you know, kind of where Java came from and how it's lasted for 25 years of such an important enterprise, you know, kind of application framework, because we always hear jokes about people looking for COBOL programmers or, you know, all these old language programmers, because they have some old system that's that needs a little assist. What's special about Java. Why are we 25 years into it? And you guys are still excited about Java yesterday, today and in the future. >>Yeah. And I should add that, um, in terms of languages, uh, twenty-five is actually still pretty young. Java's, uh, kind of middle aged, I guess. Um, you know, things like CC plus bus rrr you're 45, 50 years old Python, I think is about the same as Java in terms of years. So, you know, the languages do tend to move at a, um, at a, they do tend to stick around, uh, uh, a bit, well what's made Java really, really important for enterprises building business critical applications is it started off with a very large ecosystem of big vendors supporting it. Um, it was open in a sense from the very start and it's remained open as in open source and an open community as well. So that's really, really helped, um, you know, keep the language innovating and moving along and attracting new developers. And, um, it's, it's still a fairly modern language in terms of some of the new features it's advancing with the industry taking on new kinds of workloads and new kinds of per program paradigms as well. So, you know, it's, it's evolved very well and has a huge base out somewhere between 11 and 13 million developers still use it as a primary development language in professional settings. Yeah. >>What struck me about what you said though in that interview was kind of the evolution and how Java has been able to continue to adapt based on kind of what the new frameworks are. So whether it was early days in a machine, like you talked about being in a set top box, or, you know, kind of really lightweight kind of almost IOT applications then to be calming, you know, this really a great application to deliver enterprise applications via a web browser and that, you know, and it continues to morph and change and adapt over time. I thought that was pretty interesting given the vast change in the way applications are delivered today versus what they were 25 years ago. >>Yeah, absolutely. It's, you know, the very early days were around embedded devices, uh, intelligent toasters and, you know, whatever. Um, and, and then where it really, really took off was, but the building supporting big backend systems, big transactional workloads, whether you're a bank or an airline you're running both the scale, but also running really, really complex transactional systems that were business critical. And that's that's for the last, you know, 15 years has been, um, where it's, it's really shown building backend, um, systems. Now, as we kind of move forward, you know, the idea of, uh, um, like server side, uh, server side application versus a front end is kind of changed. You know, now we're talking microservices, we're talking about running in containers. So really the focus of where we run Java and the kinds of applications we're building with Java as this has radically changed. And as such the language has to change as well, which is, you know, one, I'm pretty excited to talk about caucus today. >>So let's, let's jump into it and talk about corcus cause the other big trend, you know, along with, with, with obviously, uh, uh, browsers being great enterprise applications, delivery vehicles is this thing called containers, right? And, and specifically more recently Kubernetes is the one that's grabbing all the attention and grabbing all the, all the momentum. Um, so I wonder Miguel, if you could talk about, you know, kind of as, as the popularity of containerized applications and containerized to everything right, containerized storage, or you even talked about containerizing networking, troll, how that's impacted, uh, what you guys are doing and the impact of Java, uh, and making it work with kind of a containerized Kubernetes world. >>Well, what we found is that the paradigm of development has teeth. So we have this top up, uh, uh, paradigm that the people are following to be able to do the best with containers, to the best with Kubernetes on the, this has worked quite fine in Greenfield on for, for many cases has been a way to develop applications faster, to be able to obtain variably salts. And the thing is that for many, uh, users, for many companies that we work with, uh, they also want to bring some of their stuff that the applications that are currently are running into this world. And, uh, I mean, we, we walk especially a lot in helping these customers be able to adopt those obligations, but we try to do it, uh, as we say, the N pixie dust, you know, we really dig into the code, we'll review the code with modernize. The application will help their customer with that application. We provide the tools are open for anyone to be able to review it and to be able to take it. So we are moving away from Greenfield into brownfield and not a way we are evolving together to say we more precise, you know, all these Greenfield applications keep coming, but also the current applications want to be more organized. >>Right. Right. So it's pretty interesting. Cause that's always the big conversation. There's, it's, it's all fine. And good if you're just building something new, uh, to use the latest tools. But as you mentioned, there's a whole lot of conversation about application modernization and this is really an opportunity to apply some of these techniques to do that. So quirky. So I wonder if you just give, let's just jump into it. What is it at the highest level? Uh, what's it all about? What should people know? >>Yeah. So, so Corker says I'm reading an attempt by red hat to ensure Java is a first-class citizen in containerized environments, but building reactive applications, uh, cloud native applications, uh, functions, Java is an incredible piece of engineering. It does some incredible things. It sudden can self optimize. As it's running in line code, it can do some really amazing things the longer it runs, but in a containerized environment, you're likely not going to be running huge amounts of code. You'd likely be running microservices and your, your services are likely to have a kind of limited life cycle as we you're able to deploy more frequently or in a function environment where, you know, you've been bought once and then you're done, um, you know, during all those long, um, kind of, um, those optimizations over time, don't really, um, make a lot of sense. So what we can do is remove a lot of the, um, the weights of Java, a lot of the complexity of Java, and we can optimize for an environment where your code is maybe just running for a few microseconds as in the case of the function or something running in native, cause you scale up and scale down. >>So we move a lot of the op side. We move a lot of the, um, the, the efforts within the application, uh, to compile time, we pre compile all of your, of your config and initialization, so that doesn't have to happen in your, um, your, your, your runtime or your production environment. Um, and then we can optimize the code week. We can, we can remove that code. We can remove, you know, whole, uh, trees and class libraries and really slimmed down the memory footprint and radically, um, slim, the Maddie memory footprint, um, increase the startup time as well. So, you know, you have less downtime in your applications. Um, and we've recently done a S a study with ADC that shows some pretty stunning results compared to, you know, some existing frameworks. And, you know, we get, um, you know, sort of like, you know, overall cost savings of, you know, 60, 64%. >>Um, we can get eight times better density. You're running more in a, in a, in a cluster and, um, you know, reduction in memory up to 90% as well. So it's, these are significant changes now. That's all good, you know, saving, saving 60, 60% on your operational costs is significant. But what we find is that most organizations, they come for the performance and the optimizations, but what actually stay for is the speed of development. So I think, I think caucus real silver bullets is, um, the developer productivity, you know, for organizations, the cost of development is still one of the major costs. I mean, the operational costs, the hosting costs a significant, but development costs, time to market will always be top of mind for organizations that are trying to move faster than the competition. And I think that's really where, um, um, caucus special and coupled in, uh, in, uh, OpenShift or Coobernetti's environment really, really does shine. Yeah, >>It's pretty interesting. So people can go to corcus.io and see a lot of the statistics that you just referenced in terms of memory usage and speed and, and whole bunch of stuff. But what struck me when I went to the site was that was this big, uh, uh, two words that jumped out developer joy. And it's funny that you talked on that just now about really, um, the benefits that come to the developer directly to make them happier. I mean, really calling out their joy. So they're more productive and ultimately that's what you said. That's where the great value is in terms of speed of deployment, happy developers, and productive developers. You know, Miguel, you get your, you get down into the weeds of this stuff. Again, the presentations on your LinkedIn, everyone needs to go look and you talk a lot about at migration and you lot talk a lot about app modernization. So without going through all 120 some odd slides that I think you have, which is good, phenomenal information, what are some of the top things that people need to think about and consider both for app modernization as well as at migration? >>Um, that's, that's, that's an interesting question. Uh, the thing is that, um, the tolling is important on the current code is, and the thing is that normally when, when we started migration project, we tried to find architects in the applications to be able to find patterns. You know, you find parents is much easier because, uh, once you solve one part on the same part on can be solved in a very similar way. So this is one of the parts of that. We focus a lot, but before getting to that point, it's very important how you stop, you know, so the assessment phase is, is very important to be able to review well, what is the status of the applications, the context of the applications. And with that, I mean, things like, for example, the requirements that they have, there's the maintenance that they take in their resiliency and so on. >>So you have to prepare very well, the project by starting with a good assessment, you have to check which applications makes more, make more sense to start with and see which, how to group them together by similarities. And then you can start with the project that saying, okay, let's go for these set of applications that make more sense that are more likely to be containerized because of the way we are developing them because of the dependencies that they have because of the resiliency that is already embedded into them and so on. So that, that the methodology is important. And we normally, for example, when we, when we help partners do a application migration, one of the things that we stress is that this is the methodology that we follow and in the website for my vision, totally for application, you can find also, um, methodology, uh, part that, uh, could help, uh, people understand, okay, these, these are the stages that we normally follow to be successful with migrating applications. >>Yeah. Let go. You don't, we're not friends. We don't hang out a lot, but if we did, you would know I never ever recommend PowerPoint for anything. So, so the fact that I'm calling out your PowerPoint actually means something. Cause I think it's the worst application ever built, but you got some tremendous, tremendous information in there and people do need to go in and look, and again, it's all from your LinkedIn work, but I wanted to shift gears a little bit, right? We're at CubeCon cloud native con. Um, obviously it's virtual is 2020. That's the way the world today. But I just curious to get your guys' take on, on what does this, uh, event mean for you obviously really active, open source community, you know, red hat has a long open-source history. Um, what does CubeCon cloud native con mean for you guys? What do you hope to get out of it? What should people hope to, uh, to learn from red hat? >>Yeah, we, um, yeah, we're, we're buying your DNA. We're very, very collaborative. Uh, we, we love to learn from our customers, users of the technologies, um, in the communities that we support. Um, speaking as a, you know, we're both product guys, there's nothing better than getting with, um, people that actually use the products, um, in anger, in real life, whether they're products are upstream technologies, learning, learning, what they're doing, understanding where, um, some of the gaps are there's. Um, yeah, we just couldn't do our jobs without engaging with developers, users in these kind of conferences. Yeah. A lot of the, um, love interest we've seen with coworkers is, is in the community, you know, um, like I'd been part of many, many successful open source projects, um, um, over red hat. And it's great when your customers, you know, like, uh, Vodafone, Greece or Carrefour in Spain are openly publicly talking about how good your technology is, what they're using it for. And that's really good. So it's just nothing, there's no alternative that, you know, whether it be virtual virtually or physically sitting down with, uh, with users of your technology, >>How about you, Miguel? What are you hoping to get out of, uh, out of the show this year? >>Um, we are working a lot with, on Kubernetes in red hat, on, uh, as part of the community, of course. And, um, I mean, there are so many new stuff that is coming around, Kubernetes that, uh, it's mostly about it, about all the capabilities that were arming, especially for example, several lists, you know, several lessons, there is an important topic with crackers, because for example, as you make the application stopped so much faster and react so much faster, you could have known of them running and just waiting for an event to happen, which saves a lot of resources and makes us super efficient. So this is one of the topics, for example, that we wanted to cover in this edition, you know, how we are implementing serverless with Kubernetes and OpenShift and many other things like pipelines. Like, I don't know, we just had quite a visit in the, uh, uh, video, uh, life of what is coming up. I see for the six. And I recommend people to take a look at it, to get everything that's new because there's a lot. Yeah, >>Yeah. You guys are technical people. You've been doing this for a long time. Why is Kubernetes so special? W Y Y you know, there's been containers in the past, right. And we've seen other kind of branded open source projects that got a lot of momentum, but Kubernetes just seems to be blowing everybody out of the out of its path. Why, what should people know about Kubernetes that aren't necessarily developers? >>Yeah, there's really nothing interesting about a single container or a single microservice, right? That's not, that's not the kind of environment that, um, real organizations live in. They live in organizations where they're going to have hundreds of services, um, who just containers and you need a technology to orchestrate and manage that in that complex environment. And Kubernete's has just quickly become the, the district per standard. Um, yeah, folks are red hat jumped on my very, very early, um, I mean, one of the advantages around her have is where we're embedded with developers and open source communities. We often have a pretty good, it gives us a pretty good crystal ball. So we're often quick to jump on the emerging technologies that are coming out of open source. And that's exactly what happened with Cubanetis. It was clear. It was, um, you're going to be sophisticated for our, you know, most, um, most sophisticated customers running at scale. Um, but, but also, you know, great for development environments as well. So it really a good fit for, uh, where we were headed and, you know, just very, very quickly became the fact that standard. And you, you just gotta go with the de facto standard. Right, right. >>Right. Well, the another thing that you mentioned rich in that other interview that I was watching is it came up the conversation in terms of managing open source projects. And at some point, you know, they kind of start, and then, you know, I think this one, if I go to corcus and look at the bottom of the page sponsored by red hat, but you talked about, you know, at some point, do you move it over to a foundation, um, you know, and kind of what are the things that kind of drive that process, that decision, um, and, you know, I would imagine that part of it has to do with popularity and scale, is that something, you know, potentially down the road, how do you think that you said you've been in lots of open source projects, when does it move from, you know, kind of single point of origin to more of a foundational support? >>Yeah. I mean, in fact the foundation's owner was necessary. Um, you know, when you have a, yeah. If you, if you have a, an open, very open project with, um, um, clear, clear rules for collaboration and kind of the encouragement or others to collaborate and be able to, you know, um, move the project and, you know, the foundation as low as necessarily what we've seen, I've been part of the no GS world where, you know, the, the community reached Belden to keep no GS moving forward. Um, we had to go from a, what we call a benevolent dictator for life, somebody who's well-intentioned, but, um, yeah, we're on stone, the technology, so a foundation, which is much more inclusive and, um, you know, greater collaboration and you can move even quicker. So, you know, um, I think what's required is, is open governance for open source projects and where that doesn't happen. You know, maybe a foundation is, is the right way forward. Right, right now with, with caucus, um, you know, the, the non red hat developers seem pretty happy with the way they can get, uh, get engaged and contribute. Um, but if we get to a point where the community is demanding a foundation and we'll absolutely consider it, that's the best project we'll do. >>So, so we're, we're coming to the end of our time. I want to give you each the last word, really with two questions, one again, you know, just kind of a summary of, of, uh, of CubeCon cloud, native con, you know, what should people be looking for, uh, find you, and, and, and I don't know if you guys are sponsoring any sessions, I'm sure there's a lot of great content. If you want to highlight one or two things. And then most importantly, as we turn the calendars, we come to the end of 2020, uh, thankfully, um, as you look ahead to 2021, you know, what are some of your priorities, uh, as, as we get ready to turn the turn, the calendar, and Miguel let's start with you. >>So, um, I mean, we have been working very hard this year on the migration, took it for applications to help her every user that is using Java to bring the two containers. You know, whether it is data IE or these crackers, but we're putting like a lot of effort in crackers. And now we are bringing in new rules. And, uh, by the, by December, we expect to have the new version of the migration looking for applications that is going to include the, all the bulls to help developers bring their, their code to the Java code, to, to carcass. And, uh, on this, this is the main goal for us right now. We are moving forward to the next year to include more, more capabilities in that project. Everything's up on site. You can go to the conveyor, uh, project and ticket on, uh, on the up capabilities for the assessment phase. So whenever any partner, any, any of our consultants are working on, on migration or anyone that would like to go and try it themselves on adopted, would like to do these migrations to the cloud native world, uh, will feel comfortable with, with this tool. So that is our main goal in, in my, in my team. >>All right. And how about you rich? >>Yeah, I think we're going to see this, um, um, kind of syllabus solidification kind of web of, um, microservices. Um, you know, if you like hate that, I'm sorry, but I'm just going to next generation microservice. There's going to be, as Miguel mentioned, is gonna be based around, um, uh, native, um, advancing, um, serverless functions. I think that's really the, the, the ideal architecture, the building March services, um, on, on Coobernetti's and caucus plays really, really well there. Um, I think there's, there's a, there's a kind of backlog of projects, um, within organizations that, um, you know, hopefully next year, everything really does start to crank up. And I think, um, yeah, I think a lot of the migration that Miguel has talked about is going to be, is going to rise in terms of importance. So app modernization, taking those existing applications, maybe taking aspects of those and, you know, doing some kind of decomposition in some microservices using caucus and a native, I think we'll see a lot of that. So I think we'll see a real drive around both the kind of Greenfield, um, applications, uh, you know, this next generation of microservices, as well as pulling those existing applications forward into these new environments, don't give an answers. So it's going to be excellent. >>Awesome. Well, thank you both for taking a few minutes with us and sharing the story of corcus, uh, and have a great show. Great to see you and a really good the conversation. All right. He's Miguel, he's rich. I'm Jeff. You're watching the cubes ongoing coverage of CubeCon cloud native con 2020 North America. Virtual. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

from around the globe it's thecube with coverage of kubecon and cloudnativecon north america 2020 virtual brought to you by red hat the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners hey welcome back everybody jeff frick here with thecube coming to you from our palo alto studios with our ongoing coverage of kubecon cloud nativecon north america 2020 virtual it's virtual like everything else that we're doing in 2020 we're really excited by our next guest we're going to dive into a company that you probably know a little bit on the surface but probably don't know a lot of the stuff that's going on behind the surface so we're really excited to have our next guest he is jai chakrabarti he is the director of engineering for core infrastructure at spotify jai great to see you great to be here with you today so as a as a long-standing uh spotify fan and and customer and premium customer and family playing customer just so there's no question i'm a big fan the infrastructure to deliver what i want to hear basically any sound any song from the entire world it seems like i don't know what the actual uh percentage of every published song you guys have you know kind of at my fingertips searchable available now to listen to is an amazing accomplishment i can't imagine how big and significant and complicated the infrastructure you guys must be managing and and not only that but kind of the meteoric growth over the last several years so first off just talk a little bit about spotify scale how you guys think about it is there some things that you can share to help people really understand you know some of the some of the big iron that's behind giving me the songs i want to hear absolutely and thank you for the opportunity to let me talk about this so it's a as you say it's a pretty mammoth project to be able to deliver just about any song that's in the world or now any podcast that you might want to listen to to hundreds of millions of fans and also enable creators to be able to share their content with the consumers who are interested in consuming that content so some of the metrics that go behind us are we have thousands of microservices running in production we were one of the early adopters of microservices at scale and continued to build on that foundation with early entrants to dockerize services and now of course largely on kubernetes we also have thousands of data pipelines hundreds of uh websites as well as micro app features and we're doing about 20 000 deployments a day to give you kind of a scale of how fast things are changing and for us speed is a great virtue as we're testing out features doing ab tests and trying to roll out the next best thing for the audio network it's amazing and i'm and i'm curious in terms of execution on the business side i mean clearly you're in many many countries you know you're global are all the licensing agreements for the music different by country are you just like super micromanaging um you know kind of the the revenue streams and the licensing by geo or is is that just as complex as it feels like it might be or is there some some simplicity or some scale that you can bring to uh to bring a little bit of of clarification there yeah so that is an area of complexity as well um so you know licensing across the broad set of content that we have as well as the number of publishers and creators that we have to make sure that everything is well accounted for is also kind of a source of complexity in our organizational makeup and then and then the the piece that i don't think a lot of people know is you guys are huge consumers and contributors back to open source and clearly we're here at q con cloud native con you've talked already about kubernetes and containers but i wonder before we get into some of the specifics if you can talk about philosophically the role of open source and why you know you guys are such a big open source company versus kind of back in the old days when you would have a lot of proprietary technology that you would try to develop and keep in-house as part of the as part of the secret sauce yeah thank you for that question so philosophically we are big proponents of open source we believe in giving back to the community we believe that when we as a community come together to solve these problems at scale the end result is much better than if we were to try it alone if any one company were to try it alone so some of the projects that we've contributed or invested a lot of time in are envoy for example which we use to power our perimeter at spotify or kubernetes which we use for deployment purposes as many companies do but there are also a number of other open source projects that we're committing to so for example with cloud bigtable we have produced an auto scaler that's now fairly widely used to be able to manage costs better with cloud bigtable we've also invested in a open source time series database called heroic to manage millions of data points for a metrics platform and scales so those are just a few examples but philosophically we believe this isn't something that we want to do alone and we want to leverage and do this together with the community right another one that you didn't mention there but you've talked about i want to dig into is backstage and as you mentioned you have a lot of developer teams working on a lot of projects like i saw a statistic maybe in github of the number of of github projects you guys are working on it's a it's a lot so what is backstage all about give us the story there yeah so at spotify we have almost somewhere around 500 engineering teams and so you can think about backstage as kind of like a central nervous system to be able to help engineers interface across the wide landscape that is spotify's engineering ecosystems so if you're an engineer you can go into backstage and you can manage your services your data pipelines your micro features you can see what other teams are doing what the organizational structure is you can get recommendations and insights on your tech health so you can see where you might need to invest more time and get some recommendations on how to get back to the blessed stock so it's really a one-stop developer portal that engineers spend the bulk of their time in today we open sourced it uh earlier this year and we've been absolutely thrilled with the response we've gotten thus far a number of companies have already started using it and contributing back so we've seen you know a lot of contributions coming back to backstage which is of course one of the ideas to be able to get some of the great ideas uh on backstage so we're really excited about that and specifically within backstage something that my team has just released into the open is a product called cost insights so one of the problems that we were dealing with at spotify is how do we sustainably look at cloud costs but do it in a way that isn't like a compliance exercise isn't a focus on traditional top top down cost controls but really taps into developers innate desire to work on optimization because all of us who come from an engineering background know that optimization is fun at the same time premature optimization is the root of all evil as the saying goes and so what we've done within our cost insights product and backstage is really try to find a good balance between engineering love for optimization and letting people know what are the areas where cloud spend really matters so if making an investment here isn't going to move the needle for us we let people know that this isn't worth your time to worry about so let me unpack you touch on a couple things first off you talked about it gives you an assessment of your engineering health so does that mean that it's kind of uh compliance within a standard is that looking for i guess not quite red flags yet but yellow flags of things that that are known potential issues down the road is it you know tapping into maybe higher cost services or microservices versus less that maybe there's a less expensive way so so how do you define health and how do you you know keep track of people getting away from health and then you know steering them back to being more healthy yeah that's a great question so we have this concept at spotify called golden state which is a reflection of how far away are you from all of the blessed frameworks libraries that we recommend to engineers and the way we think about golden state is there ought to be clear value adds to going to a new service a new library version and so the way we try to express it is unless of course there's a kind of a direct security concern and there aren't really too many ways to get around that but we really tried to preserve engineering autonomy and say if you go to this new framework for example you're going to save this much time on average so the recommendations that you'll find there are going to be highly specific so for example if you adopt uh you know an auto scaler for bigtable you're going to save this much time and spend this much less that's in general how we phrase these things okay and then on the cost insights i mean clearly when a dev is working on a new feature or new uh you know experimenting maybe with a bunch of new features and you're you're setting up multiple a b testing this and that are they are they not really working worrying about cost at the front end of that or is really kind of the cost optimization and you mentioned you know don't optimize too early does that come kind of after the fact and after you've you know moved some new things into production they have potential and now we do maybe a second order kind of analysis of the appropriateness of that feature because i imagine if they're just if you're just trying to come up with new features and exploring and trying new things not really worrying about the you're not worrying about the cloud bill right you're just trying to get some feature functionality and make sure you don't have too many bugs and make sure you're going to get some good client value and some new customer experience yeah yeah no and and we agree with that perspective so we think about the world in terms of startup scale-ups and mature businesses at spotify so there are a lot of teams who are experimenting with new ideas that fall into the startup category and by and large they are not going to be worrying about costs that being said we as infrastructure teams have the notice on us to think about how do we provide shared services and frameworks that abstract away a lot of these questions around how do you properly manage your costs right so that that is on us as infrastructure teams but really our perspective is for startups to move as quickly as they can and really if that's an idea that's viable and you get to what we call the scale-up stage or you get to the mature business stage where it really is a core part of our business then that's where you know you might start to get some nudges or recommendations and cost insights so interesting so i'd love to you know your background you came from financial services and trading where clearly speed matters accuracy matters you know that that's i mean basically financial services is is a software game at this stage of the game and it's a speed game and i saw another interesting uh video getting ready for this i think it was with gustav soderstrom talking about the competitive advantage of the early days really being speed and speed to return a result and speed to start that stream and it just struck me very much like you know the early days of google which was that was their whole speed thing and they even told you how fast you got a return on your search when you're thinking about optimizing now with the huge suite of features and functionalities that you have how do you think about speed is it still speed number one how is kind of the priority changed and what are some of the design priorities that when things go from experiment to start to be into the scale realm and hopefully be successful in production that that need to be thought about and potentially rank ordered um in in the proper way yeah yeah that's it's a great question and so you know i'll just refer to daniel x quote around this which is we aim to fail faster than anyone else and so for us as a company and with our growth trajectory and investing in the areas that we are looking to invest into it's still absolutely critical that we move fast that we get the ideas of the startup phase out to be vetted and validated if we can go to the next phase to the scale-up phase so i see that just as important today if not more than when i first joined spotify uh you know over four years ago at this point and regarding financial services um there are certainly you know touch points in terms of the amount of data that we're processing and the scale of technology that it requires to process that kind of data but one of the things that i really love about spotify of course is that we get to move fast which is sometimes of course going to be a lot more difficult when you're talking about the financial service arena and various uh compliance bodies that are overseeing any changes that you might make yeah you guys are you guys were running a little bit ahead of the regs i think which is pretty typical uh in the music business napster was running a little bit ahead of the regs and you know then we saw the evolution with the itunes and then you know you guys really really nailing the streaming service really for the first time and and opening up this new con consumption bottle and i wonder if you could talk about you know kind of keeping the customer experience first and making sure that that's a positive thing i can't help but think of of the netflix experience where they spend so much time on people's interaction with the application to to get them to try new things a recommendation engine such an important piece of the of the puzzle and i think what you guys have really nailed is the discovery piece because it's one thing to be able to quickly access a favorite song and be able to listen to it but everyone loves discovery right and discovery is kind of an interesting and interesting process and you guys have taken a really scientific approach in terms of cataloging music and and different attributes of music and then using those to help drive the recommendation engine i wonder if you can share you know kind of your thoughts in terms of being you know kind of ultimately driven by the customer experience and their interaction with the application and these things called you know music or podcast which is such a such a a a very personal thing to interact with yeah so from the perspective of core infrastructure you know it's spotify our goal is to really enable the scale in which we are processing the amount of audio content that goes through our system and so podcast of course is a new category that wasn't there when i originally joined spotify but it's really to provide a platform so these experiments can be done seamlessly so we can have different ways of looking at discovery looking at user segmentation and being able to come up with new ways that are going to be compelling to our customers so that's very exciting and fulfilling for us to be able to provide that platform by which our sister teams can iterate very quickly knowing that they have the guard rails uh which you know in our on-premise days at times was a struggle and where we're in a very different place now yeah so last question before i let you go we're at cubecon cloudnativecon um and and it's just an interesting thing that i always think about when you're managing engineering teams that are heavily open source participants and you know it's such a big piece now of of a lot of engineers motivation to be active participants in open source and to and to show their work to others outside the company but at the same time they have to get company work done so i just wonder if you could share your perspective of how do you manage open source contributions how do you keep them you know working on company projects but also make sure you allocate time and priorities to open source contributions because that is a really important piece of the motivation for a lot of engineers it's not just working for the company and getting paid at the india at the end of every two weeks yeah it's a key motivation as you say and it's key to our recruiting strategy and also how we think about retaining engineers and spotify so there are different mechanisms that we use and there's a lot of focus that's modified on coming up with development plans for engineers that actually make sense um so you know i would say that all the way from the oft quoted 20 time is something that you might hear at spotify where you have engineers who are working on open source 20 of the time or you might see a variety of customized customized options depending on who the engineer is where they want to grow and really i think the key here is providing the right support structures so even if you have the time are you getting the mentorship are you getting the right kind of support system so you know how to connect with the community and so you have other like-minded people who are bouncing ideas and you don't feel like you're doing it yourself so that's something that i feel really excited about that we've grown those support structures over the last few years eyes have also been very intentional about giving engineers time to work on open source and you give them as much as 20 i'd never heard that before yeah in some cases some i mean if that is what where an engineer really wants to focus and grow there are a number of folks at spotify who are spending up to 20 of their time on open source wow that's amazing that that is a uh that's a it's just it's such a great commitment for the company to the engineer if that's their priority and then everyone's going to benefit from it both the engineer the company as well as the community so really a forward-looking you know point of view to take that long-term view versus the you know maybe we should only give them 10 we're losing 10 of their time working on a project so that is super super progressive and i'm sure you must be seeing great roi on it or you wouldn't continue to be such huge proponents of open source and such huge contributors back so that's that's a great story yeah terrific i mean you know we we want those contributions to be in line with where we're growing as a company and we see a lot of opportunities uh where that is happening so like envoy or kubernetes um just to name a couple of examples where folks have devoted time in those areas well thanks for uh thanks for sharing some of the the story behind the scenes you know again household name what what a tremendous success story and and and uh you know i'm a movie customer so i'm definitely a customer though no no doubt about it so uh thank you for your contributions congrats to the team and uh and really loved the story of how you guys are contributing back and and doing a lot more than just making great music available to us all and a great channel for uh for creators to get their stuff out there so thanks again thanks so much for your time i really appreciate it all right he's jai i'm jeff you're watching the cube's continuing coverage of kubecon cloud nativecon north america 2020 thanks for watching we'll see you next [Music] time you

>> Presenter: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2020 Virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're coming to you from our Palo Alto Studios with our ongoing coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2020, the digital version. It would have been the North American version but obviously everything is digital. So we're excited, we've been coming back here for years and we've got a founder of CNCF and also a practitioner, really great opportunity to get some insight from someone who's out in the field and putting this stuff into work. So we're joined in this next segment by Ken Owens. He is the Vice President of Software Development Engineering for MasterCard, and he's a founding member of the CNCF, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation. Ken, great to see you. >> Yeah, great. Thank you for having me, I have, I've enjoyed theCUBE over the years and I'm glad to be a part of it again. >> Yeah, so we're, we're psyched to have you on, and I think it's the first time I've got to talk to you. I think you might've been on in LA a couple of years ago, or I was kind of drifting around that show. I don't think I was a it was on the set that day, but before we jump into kind of what's going on now, you were a founding member of CNCF. So let's take a step back and kind of share your perspective as to kind of where we are now from where this all began and kind of this whole movement around Cloud Native. Certainly it's a good place to be. >> Yeah, yeah definitely. It's been a great ride. In our industry, we go through these sort of timeframes every decade or so, where something big kind of comes along and you get involved in and you participate in it. And it gets to be a lot of fun and it either dies or it evolves into something else, right? And with CloudNativeCon Cloud Native itself, this concept of just how difficult it was to really move with the type of agility and the type of speed that developers in the enterprise really need to move at. It was just, it was hard to get there with just traditional infrastructure, traditional ways of doing configurations of doing management of infrastructure and it really needed something different and something to kind of help, it was called orchestration of course but at the time we didn't know it was called orchestration right. We knew we needed things like service mesh, but they weren't called service meshes then. There were more like control planes. And how do you, how do you custom create all of these different pieces? And the great thing about the CNCF is that we, when we started it, we had very simple foundational principles we wanted to follow right. One was, we wanted to have end users involved. A lot of foundations as become very vendor-driven and very vendor-centric. And you kind of lose your, your core base of the practitioners as you call us right? The guys who actually need to solve problems they're trying to make a living solving problems for the industry, not just for selling products, right? And so it was important that we get those end users involved and that, and that's probably the biggest changes. It's a great technology body. We had great technologists, great engineers and the foundation but we also have a huge over 150 end users that have engaged and been very involved and contributing to the end users things of the community, contributing to the foundation now. And it's been awesome to see that come to fruition over the last three years. >> Yeah, it certainly part of the magic of open source, that's been so, so transformative. And we've seen that obviously with servers and Linux and what what that did, but we've been talking a lot lately too about kind of the anniversary of the of the Agile Manifesto and kind of the Agile Movement and really changing the prioritization around change and really making change a first class citizen as opposed to kind of a nightmare I don't want to deal with and really building systems and ways of doing things that adopt that. I want to just to pull up the Cloud Native definition 'cause I think it's interesting. We talk about Cloud Native a lot and you guys actually wrote some words down and I think it's worth reading them that Cloud Native Technologies empower organizations to build and run scalable applications in dynamic environments. Dynamic environments is such a key piece to this puzzle because it used to be, this is your infrastructure person, you've got to build something that fits into this. Now with an app-centric world has completely flipped over and the application developer doesn't have to worry about the environment anymore, right? It's spin it up and make it available to me when I need it. A really different way of thinking about things than kind of this static world. >> Definitely and then that was the big missing piece for all those years was how do you get to this dynamic environment, right, that embraces change and embraces risk to some extent. Not risk like you heard in the past with risk avoidance is so important to have, right. It's really more, how do you embrace risk and fail earlier in the process, learn earlier in the process so that when you get to production you're not failing, you're not having to worry about failure because you cut as much as you could in the earlier phases of your development life cycle. And that's been set, like you said that dynamic piece has just been such the difference. I think in why it's been taken off. >> Yeah. >> And industry this last five years now that we've been around. >> Yeah, for sure. So then the next one well, I'm just going to go through them 'cause there's three main tenants of this thing. These techniques and techniques enabled loosely coupled systems that allow engineers to make high impact changes frequently and predictably with minimum toil. I mean, those are, those are really hard challenges in a classic waterfall way with PRDs and MRDs and everything locked down in a big, giant Gantt chart that fills half of the half the office to actually be able to have loosely coupled systems. Again a really interesting concept versus hardwired, connected systems. Now you're talking about APIs and systems all connecting. Really different way to think about development and how do you build applications. >> Yeah and the interesting thing there is the very first definition we came up with five plus years ago was containers, containerized workloads, right? And being technologist, everyone focused on those words containers and containerized and then everything had to be a container, right? And to your point, that isn't what we're trying to do, right? We're trying to create services that are just big enough to support whatever is needed for that service to support and be able to scale those up and down independently of other dependent systems that may have different requirements associated with what they have to do, right. And it was more about that keeping those highly efficient type of patterns in mind of spinning up and spinning down things that don't have impact or cause impact to other larger components around them was really the key not containers or containerized. >> Right. >> Obviously that's one of the patterns you could follow to create those types of services and those patterns, but there is nothing that guarantees it has to be a container that can do that. Lots of BMS today and lots of Bare Metal Servers can have a similar function. They're just not going to be as dynamic as you may want them to be in other environments. >> Right and then the third tenant, three of three is fostering sustainable ecosystem of open source vendor neutral projects, democratizing state-of-the-art patterns to make these innovations accessible for everyone. So just the whole idea of democratization of technology, democratization of data, democratization of tools, to do something with the data to find the insight democratization of the authority to execute on those decisions once you get going on that, I mean the open source and kind of this democratization to enable a broad distribution of power to more than just mahogany row, huge fundamental shift in the way people think about things. And really even still today, as everyone's trying to move their organizations to be more data-centric in the way they operate, it is really all about the democratization and getting that information and the tools and the ability to do something with it to as broad a group of people as you can. And that's even before we talk about open source development and the power of again, as you said, bringing in this really active community who want to contribute. It's a really interesting way that open source works. It's such a fun thing to watch, and I'm not a developer from the outside, but to see people get excited about helping other people. I think that's probably the secret to the whole thing that really taps into. >> Yeah, it is. And open source, there were discussions about open source for 20 plus years trying to get more into open source contributing to open source in an enterprise mindset, right? And it could never really take off 'cause it's not really the foundation or the platforms or the capabilities needed to do that. And now to your point, open source was really the underlying engine that is making all of this possible. Without open source and some of those early days of trying to get more open source and understanding of open source in the enterprise, I think we'd still be trying to get adoption but open source had just gotten to that point where everyone wanted to do more with open source. The CNCF comes along and said, here's the set of democratized, we're not going to have kingmakers in this organization. We're going to have a lot of open solutions, a lot of good options for companies to look at, and we're not going to lock you in to anything. 'Cause that's another piece of that open source model, right. Open source still can lock you in, right. But if you have open choices within open source, there's less, lock-in potential and locking isn't really a horrible thing. It's just one of those tenants you don't want to be tied too tightly to any one solution or one hope, open source even program because that could 'cause issues of that minimal toil we talked about, right. If you have a lot of dependencies and a lot of, I always joked about OpenStack but if I have to email two guys, if I find an issue in OpenStack about security that's not really a great security model that I can tell my customers I have your security covered, right? So, you want to get away from emails and having to ask for help, if you see a big security issue you want to just address it right then and fix it fast. >> Right, right. So much to unpack there. And for those that don't follow you, you've done a ton of presentations. You've got a ton of great content out of the internet with deep technical dives, into some of this stuff and the operational challenges in your philosophies but good keeping it kind of high level here. 'Cause one of the themes that comes up over and over in some of the other stuff I saw from you is really about asking the right questions. And we hear this time and time again, that the way to get the right answer first you got to frame the question right. And you talk quite extensively about asking the why and asking the how. I wonder if you can unpack that a little bit as to why those two questions are so important and how do you ask them in a way that doesn't piss everybody off or scare them away when you're at a big company like MasterCard that has a lot of personal information, you're in the finance industry, you got ton of regulation but still you're asking how and you're asking why. >> Yeah, definitely. And those, those are two questions that I keep coming back to in the industry because they are, they're not asked enough in my opinion. I think they, for the reasons you brought up those there's too much pushback or there's, you don't want to be viewed as someone who's being difficult, right? And there maybe other reasons why you don't want to ask that but I like to ask the why first because it, you kind of have to understand what's the problem you're trying to solve. And it kind of goes back to my engineering background, I think right. I love to solve problems and one of my early days and you might have heard this on one of my, my interviews, right. But in my early days, I was trying to fix a problem that I was on an advanced engineering team. And I was tier four support in a large Telco. And for months we had this issue with one of our large oil based companies and no one could solve it. And I was on call the night that they called in. And I asked the guy a simple question, tell me which lights you see on this DHUC issue? Which is a piece of equipment that sits between a ATM network and a regular Sonnet network. So we're watching, I'm asking them as kind of find out where in this path, there's a problem. And the guy tells me where there's no lights on. And I'm like well, plug in the power and let me know when it boots up and then let's try another test. And that was the problem. So my, the cleaning crew would come through and unplugged it. And so I learned early on in my crew that if you don't ask those simple questions, you just assume that everything's working almost nine times out of 10, it's the simple, easy solution to a problem. You're just too busy thinking of all the complex things that could go wrong and trying to solve all the hard problems first. And so I really try to help people think about, ask the why questions, ask, why is this important? Why do we need to do this now? Why, what would happen if we don't do this? If we did it this other way, what's the downside of doing it this other way? Really think through your options, 'cause it may take you 20, 30 minutes to kind of do a good analysis of a problem, but then your solution you're not going to spend weeks trying to troubleshoot when it doesn't work because you put the time upfront to think about it. So that's sort of the main reason why I like to ask the why and the how, because it forces you to think outside of your normal, my job is to take this cog and put it over here and fix this, right. And you don't want to be in that, that mode when you're solving complex problems because you overlook or you miss the simple things. >> Right. So you don't like the 'cause we've always done it that way? (both laughing) >> I do not. And I hear that a lot everywhere I've been in the industry and anywhere, any company you have those, this is the way we've always done it. >> Yeah, yeah. Just like the way we've always traveled, right. And the way we've always been educated and the way we've always consumed entertainment. It's like really? I wanted to (indistinct) >> I have learned though that there's a good, I like to understand the reason behind why we've always done it that way. So I do always ask that question. >> Right. >> I don't turn around on someone and get mad at them and you say, Oh, we can't we have to do it differently. I don't have the mindset of let's throw that out the window because I realized that over time something happened. It's like when I had younger kids, I always laugh because they put these warnings on those whatever they call them at the kids stand up in them. >> Right, the little, the little (indistinct) >> Don't put them on top of the stairs right. These stupid little statements are written on there. And I always thought I was dumb. And if somebody told me, well that's because somebody put their kid near the pool and they drown. >> Right, right. >> You have to kind of point out the obvious to people and so, >> Yeah. >> I don't think it's that dangerous of a situation and in the work environment, but hopefully we're not making the same mistakes that have been prevented by not allowing just the, not because we've done it this way before modeled it to go forward. >> Right, right now we have a rule around here too. There's a reason we have every rules is because somebody blew it at some point in time. That's why we have the rule that I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about automation, right? 'Cause automation is such a big and important piece of this whole story especially as these systems scale, scale, scale. And we know that people are prone to errors. I mean, I had seen that story about the cleaner accidentally unplugging things. We all know that people fat fingers, copy and paste is not used as universally as it should be. But I wonder if you could share, how important automation is. And I know you've talked a lot about how people should think about automate automation and prioritizing automation and helping use automation to both make people more productive but also to prioritize what the people should be working on as well as lowering the error rate on stuff that they probably shouldn't be doing anyway. >> Exactly, yeah automation to me is, as you've heard me say before is it's something that is probably almost as big of a key tenet as open source should be, right? It's one of those foundational things that it really helps you to get rid of some of that churn and some of the toil that you run into in a production environment where you're trying to always figure out what went wrong and why did this system not work on this point in time and this day and this deployment, and it's almost to your point always a fat finger, someone deleted an IP address from the IPAM system. There's all kinds of errors that you can people can tell you about that have happened. But to the root of your question is automation needs to be thought about from three different primary areas in my view, in my experience. The first one is the infrastructure as code, software defined infrastructure, right. So the networking teams and the storage teams and the security teams are probably the furthest behind in adopting automation in in their jobs, right. And their jobs are probably the most critical pieces of the infrastructure, right? And so those are, those are pieces that I really highly encouraged them to think about how can they automate those areas. The second piece is I think is equally as important as the infrastructure piece is the application side. When I first joined multiple enterprises in the past, the test coverage is in the low 10's to 20%, right. And your test coverage is a direct correlation to how well your application is going to behave and production in terms of failures, right? So if you have low test coverage, you're going to have high failure rates. It's sort of over over all types of industries every study has shown that, right. So getting your test coverage up and testing the right things not just testing to have test coverage right. >> But actually. >> Right, right. >> Thinking through your user stories and acceptance criteria and having good test is really, really important. So you have those two bookends, right. And in between, I think it's important that you look at how you connect to these services, these distributed systems we talked about in the opening right. If you fully automate your infrastructure and fully automate your application development and delivery, that's great. But if in the middle you have this gooey middle that doesn't really connect well doesn't really have the automation in place to ensure that your certificates are there that your security is in place. That middle piece can become really a problem from a security and from a availability issue. And so those those are the two pieces that I say really focus on is that gooey middle and then that infrastructure piece is really the two keys. >> Right, right. You've got another group of words that you use a lot. I want you to give us a little bit more color behind it. And that's talking to people to tell them that they need to spend more time on investigation. They need to do more experimentation. And then and the one that really popped out to me was it was retro to retrospective to not necessarily a postmortem which I thought is interesting. You say retrospective versus the postmortem, because this is an ongoing process for continuous improvement. And then finally, what seems drop dead dumb obvious is to iterate and deliver. But I wonder if you can share a little bit more color on how important it is to experiment and to investigate and to have those retrospectives. >> Yeah definitely. And then it kind of goes back to that culture we want to create in a Cloud Native world, right. We want to be open to thinking about how we can solve problems better, how we can have each iteration we want, to look at, how do we have a less toil, have less issues. How do we improve the, I liked kind of delight in your experience, how do you make your developers and your customers specific, but specifically how do you make your customers so happy with your service? And when you think about those sort of areas, right. You want to spend some portion of your time dedicated to how do I look at and investigate better ways of doing things or more improvements around the way my customer experience is being delivered. Asking your customers questions, right. You'd be surprised how how many customers don't ever get asked for their opinion on how something works, right. And they want to be asked, they'd love to give you feedback. It doesn't necessarily mean you're going to go do it that next iteration, right? The old adage I like to use is if Henry Ford had listened to his customers he would have tried to breed a faster horse, right? And so you have to kind of think about what you want to try to deliver as a product and as an organization but at the same time, that input is important. And I think, I say carve it out, because if you don't, we're so busy today and there's so much going on in our lives. If you don't dedicate and carve out some of that time and protect that time, you will never get to that, right. It's always a, I'll get to that next year. Maybe our next iteration I'll try, right. And so it's important to really hold that time as sacred and spend time every week, every couple of weeks, whatever it works out in the schedule, but actually put that in your calendar and block out that time and use it to really look at what's possible, what's relevant, what kind of improvements you can have. I think those are really the key the key takeaways I can have from that piece of it. And then, the last one you asked about, which I think is so important, is the retrospective, right. Always trying to get better and better at what you do is, is an engineer's goal, right? We never liked to fail. We never liked to do something twice, right? We don't want to, we want to learn the first time we make a mistake and not make it over and over again. So that those retrospectives and improving on what you're doing iteratively. And to the point you brought up and I like to bring this up a lot, 'cause I've been part not at MasterCard, but at other companies parts of companies that would talk a great game come up with great stories, say here's our plan. And then when we get ready to go to deliver it, we go and we reinvestigate the plan and see if there's a better plan. And then we get to a point where we're ready to go execute. And then we go back and start all over again, right. And you've got to deliver iteratively, if you don't, you're the point I like to always make is you're never going to be ready, right. It's like, when are you ready to have kids? You never ready to have kids, right. You just have to go and you'll learn as you go. You know so. >> Right, right, I love that. Well again, Ken, you have so much great stuff out there for technical people that want to dive in deep? So I encourage them just to do a simple YouTube or excuse me, YouTube search or Google search but I want to give you the last word. One word, I'm going to check the transcript when this thing is over that you've used probably more than any other word while we've been talking for the last few minutes is toil. And I think it's really interesting that it brings up and really highlights your empathy towards what you're trying to help developers avoid and what you're trying to help teams avoid so that they can be more productive. You keep saying, avoid the toil, get out of the toil, get out of this kind of crap that inhibits people from getting their job done and being creative and being inventive and being innovative. Where does that come from? And I just love that you keep reinforce it and just kind of your final perspective as we wrap on 2020 and another year of CNCF and clearly containers and Kubernetes and Cloud Native is continues to be on fire and on a tear. I just wonder if you can share a little bit of your perspective as a founding member as we kind of come to the end of 2020. >> Yeah definitely. Thanks again for having me. It's been a great, great discussion. I am a developer by background, by trade today, I still develop. I still contribute to open source and I've had this mantra pretty much my entire career that you have to get into the weeds and understand what everyone's experiencing in order to figure out how to solve the problems, right. You can't be in an ivory tower and look down and say, Oh, there's a problem, I'm going to go fix that. It just doesn't work that way. And most problems you try to solve in that model will be problems that no other team has really experienced. And there not going to be help, they're not going to be thankful that you solved the problem they don't have, right? They want you to solve a problem that they have. And so I think that that's sort of a key for the reason why I spent so much time talking about that as I live it every day. I understand it. I talk with my development community and with a broader community of developers at MasterCard and understand the pains that they're going through and try to help them every day with coming up with ways to help make their lives a lot easier. So it's important to me and to to all organizations out there and in all of the, in the world. So, CNCF its been great. It's still growing. I'm always looking for end users. I'd love to talk to you. Well, you can reach out to, to the CNCF if you'd like to learn more, our website has information on how to get connected to the end user community. We community within the CNCF that is not, it's a private community. So you don't have to worry about your information being shared. If you don't want people to know you belong to the community, you don't have to list that information. If you want to list it, you're welcome to list it. There's no expectations on you to contribute to open source, but we do encourage you to contribute, and are here to support that end user community any way we can. So thanks again for having us and looking forward to, to a great show in North America. >> All right well, thank you, Ken, for sharing your information sharing the insight, sharing the knowledge really appreciate it and great to catch up. All right. He's Ken, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE with our ongoing coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2020 North America Digital. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (gentle music)

from around the globe it's thecube with coverage of kubecon and cloudnativecon north america 2020 virtual brought to you by red hat the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners hey welcome back everybody jeff frick here with thecube coming to you from our palo alto studios for the continuing coverage of kubecon cloud native con 2020 north america there was the european version earlier in the summer it's all virtual uh so the good news is we don't have to get on planes and we can get guests from all over the world and we're excited to welcome back for his return to the cube ricardo rocha he is a staff member and computing engineer at cern ricardo great to see you hello thanks for having me absolutely and you're coming in from uh from geneva so you're you already had a good thursday i bet yeah we're just finishing right now yeah right so in in getting ready for this um interview i was looking at the interview that you did i think it was two cube cons ago uh in may of 2019 and it just strikes me a lot of people know what cern is but a lot of people don't know what's cern in so i wonder if you can just give you know kind of the 101 of what cern's mission is and what is some of the work that you guys do there yeah sure uh so cern is the european organization for uh nuclear research we are the largest particle physics laboratory in the world and our main mission is uh fundamental research so we try to answer big questions about why don't we see antimatter what is dark matter or dark energy other questions about the origin of the universe and to answer these questions we build very large machines particle accelerators where we try to recreate some of [Music] the moments just after the universe was created the big bang to try to understand better what was the state of the matter at that time the result of all of this is very often a lot of data that has to be analyzed and that's why we traditionally have had a huge requirements for computing resources during the the start of cern we always had this this large large requirements right and so you have this large particle accelerators as you said large machines the one that you've got now the the latest one how long has that one been operational yeah so it started uh like maybe around 10 years ago the first launch was a bit before that uh and it's uh it's a very large uh it's the largest one ever built so it's 27 kilometers in perimeter we inject protons into different uh directions and then we we make them collide where we build these huge detectors that can can see what's happening in these collisions uh the the main the main particle accelerator is this one we do have other experiments we have a nancy meta factory that is just uh down from my office and we have other types of experiments as well going right 27 kilometers that's a big that's a big number and then and then again just so people get some type of sense of scale so then you you you speed up the particles you smash them together you see what happens they collect all the data what types of data sets are generated off off just a one you know kind of event and i don't even know if that's a relative you know if that's a valid measure how do how do you measure kind of quantities of data around event just you know kind of for orders of magnitude right so uh the way it works is as you said we accelerate the particles to very close to the speed of light and we increase the energy by by having the beams well controlled and then at specific points we make them collide we have this gigantic detectors underground all of this is 100 meters in the ground and these detectors are pretty much a very large camera that would take something like 40 million pictures a second and the result of this is a huge amount of data each of these detectors can generate up to one petabyte of second this is not something we can record so what we do is we have hardware filters that will bring this down to something we can manage which is in the order of a few tens of gigabytes per second wow so you've been you've got a very serious computing challenge ahead of you because you're the one that's on the hook for for grabbing the data recording the data making the data available for for people to use um on their experiments um so we're here at kubecon cloud native con where did containers come into the story uh and and kubernetes specifically what was the real uh challenge that you're trying to overcome yeah so uh this is a a long story of uh using distributed computing at cern and other types of computing so as i mentioned we generate a lot of data we generate something like 7 but of 70 petabytes of data every year and we accumulated something over one half an exabyte of data by now so uh traditionally we've had to build this software ourselves um which was uh because there was not so many people around that would have this kind of needs but this revolution with containers and the clouds appearing kind of allowed us to to join other other communities and benefit also from their work and not have to do everything ourselves so this is the main probe for us to start doing this the other point is more containerization we traditionally are very we have a lot of needs to share information but also share resources between physicists and engineers so this idea of containerizing the work including all the code all the data and then sharing this with our colleagues is very appealing the fact that we can also take this unit of work and just deploy it in any infrastructure that has a standardized api like kubernetes and scale that monitoring the same way it's also very appealing so all of these things kind of connect with our way of working our natural way of working i would say right so you've talked about the this upgrade is coming um to the particle accelerator in a couple four or five years whatever that timeline is relatively soon um this as you've said before is a huge step function in the data that's that that's going to come off these experiments i mean how are you keeping up on the compute side with the fundamental shift in on kind of the physics side and the data that's going to be generated to make sure that you can keep up and i think you said it in a prior interview somewhere along the way that you know you don't want to be the bottleneck when there's all this great work being done but if it's not captured and made available for people to do stuff with the data then you know it's not uh it's not the greatest experiment so how are you keeping up and and what's the relative scale to have what you got to do on the compute side to keep up with the the guys on the physics side yeah so the the the idea well we what we will have to deal with is an increase of 10 times of more data than we have today we already have a lot and very soon we'll have a lot more but this is not i would say this is not the first time this kind of uh step happens uh in our computing we always kind of found a new technology or a new way to do things that would improve in in this case uh what we do is we do what we always do which is we try to look for all sorts of new technologies or all sorts of new resources that we could make use of in this case a lot is involving improving our own software to replace what we currently use with hardware triggers to replace that with software-based using accelerators gpus and other types of accelerators this will play a big role and also making our software more efficient in this way the second thing that we are doing is trying to make our infrastructure more agile and this is where cloud native kubernetes plays a huge role so that we can benefit from external resources uh we we can always think of like expanding our in on-premises resources but it's also very good to be able to just go and fish around if there's something available externally kubernetes plays a very big role in that respect as well yeah i'd love to dig into that a little deeper because the cloud native foundation is a super active foundation obviously a ton of activity around kubernetes so what does that mean to you as an infrastructure provider you know to your own company being on the hook to have now you know kind of an open source community that's supporting you indirectly via ongoing developments and ongoing projects and having as you said kind of this broader group of brain power to pull from to help you move your own infrastructure along yeah i think this this is great we've had really good experiences in the past we've been uh heavy users of uh linux from from from for a very long time we've used openstack for our private cloud and we've been heavily involved in that community as well we not only uh contribute as end users but we also uh offer some some manpower for development and helping with the community and we are doing the same with kubernetes uh and this is uh this is really we we end up getting a lot more than we we are putting in the community we are quite involved but uh it's so large and and and with such big players that have very similar needs to ours that uh we end up having a lot a lot more back than we are putting in we try to help as much as possible but uh yeah we have limited resources as well now open source is an amazing it's just an amazing innovation uh machine and and obviously it's proved as its value over a lot of things from linux to kubernetes being one of the most recent i want to shift gears a little bit right and ask you just your your take on public cloud right one of the huge benefits of public cloud is is the flexibility to add capacity shrink capacity as you need it and you talked again in a prior thing i was looking at you know that you definitely have spikes uh in demand spikes whether there's a high frequency of experiments i don't know how frequently you run those things versus maybe a conference or something where you said people you know want to get access to the data run experiments prior to your conference do you where does public cloud play in your thoughts and maybe you're there today maybe you're not how do you think about you know kind of public cloud generically but more specifically you know that ability to add a little bit more flex in your compute horsepower or are you just going up into the right up into the right and not really flexing down very much yeah so this is this is something we've been working on for a few years now uh we it's uh it's uh it's i would say it's an ongoing work it's a situation that will will not uh be very clear for the for the next few years but again what what we try to do is just to explore as much as possible all kinds of resources that can help us what we did in the kubecon last year was this demonstration that we can actually scale we can scale out and burst for for this uh spiky workloads we have we can burst to the to the public cloud quite easily using this kind of cloud native technologies that we have today and this is extremely important because it kind of changes our mindset instead of having to to think only on investing on premises we can think that maybe we can cover for the majority of use cases but then explore and burst to the public cloud this has to be easy in terms of infrastructure and that we are at that point right now with kubernetes we also have kind of workload that is maybe easier to do these things than than a traditional i.t where services are very interconnected in our case we are more thinking of batch workloads where we can just submit jobs uh and then fetch the data back right this also has a few challenges but but it's i would say it's it's easier than the traditional ite service deployments the other aspect where the public cloud is also very interesting is uh for resources that we don't have in large quantities so we have a very large farm for with cpus we have some gpus and it's very good to be able to explore this new accelerator technologies and maybe expand our available pool of accelerators by going to the public cloud maybe to use them but also to validate to see which ones are best for our use cases and explore that option as well it's not only general capacity it's really like dedicated um hardware that we might not even have ever like we think of tpus or ipu's it's something that is very interesting that we can scale and just go go use them in the public cloud yeah that's a really interesting point because because the cloud providers are big enough now right that they're building all kind of specialized specialized server specialized uh cpu specialized gpus dpus is a new one i've heard a data processing unit as you said there's fpgas and all kinds of accelerators so it is a really rich environment for as you said to do your experiments and find what the optimal solution is for whatever that particular workload is but ricardo i want to shift gears a little bit as we come to the end of 2020 thankfully for a whole bunch of reasons as you look forward to 2021 i mean clearly anticipating and starting to plan to get ready for your upgrade as a priority i'm just curious what are your other priorities and how does you know kind of the compute infrastructure in terms of an investment within cern you know kind of rank with the investment around the physical things that you're building the big machines because without the compute those other things really don't provide much data and i know those are we always talked about how expensive the particle accelerators is it's an interesting number and it's big but you guys are a big piece of that as well so what are your priorities looking forward to 2021 yeah from from the compute side i think we are keeping the the priorities in similar to what we've been doing the last few years which is to make sure that we improve all our automation to improve efficiency as well to prepare for these upgrades we have but also there's a lot of activity in this new uh area with machine learning popping up we have a ton of services appearing where people want to to start doing machine learning in many many use cases in some cases they want to do the filtering in the detectors in other cases they want to generate simulation data a lot faster using machine learning as well so i think this will be something that will be a huge topic for next year even for the next couple of years which is to see how we can offer our users and physicists the best service so that they don't have to care about the infrastructure they don't have to know about the details of how they scale their their model training their serving of their models all of this i think this will be a very big topic um it's something that it's becoming really a big part of of the world computing for high energy physics and for cern as well that's great we see that a lot you know just applied machine learning to very specific problems you talked about you still can't even record all that information that comes off those things you have to do some compression technology and other things so real opportunities barely scratched on the surface of machine learning and ai but i'm sure you're going to be using it a ton well ricardo give you give you the last word um we're in at cncf's uh kubecon cloud native con you know what do you get out of these types of shows and why is this such again kind of why is it such an important piece of your way you get your job done yeah honestly uh with all this uh situation right now i kind of really miss this kind of conferences in person uh it's really a huge opportunity to connect with uh with the other end users but also with with the community and to talk to the developers discuss things over uh coffee beer this is something that is really something that is really useful to to have this kind of meetings every year uh i think what what uh i always try to say is uh this this wall infrastructure is is truly making a big impact in the way we do things so we can only thank the community uh it's it allows us to to kind of shift to focusing on a higher level to focus more on our use cases instead of having to focus so much on the infrastructure we kind of start giving it as a given that the infrastructure scales and we can just use it and focus on optimizing our own software so this is a huge contribution we can only thank the cncf projects and everyone involved great well thank you for that uh that summary and that that's a terrific summary so ricardo thank you so much for all your hard work answering really big helping answer really big questions and uh and for joining us today and sharing your insight thank you very much all right he's ricardo i'm jeff you're watching the cube from our palo alto studios for continuing coverage of kubecon cloud nativecon 2020. thanks for watching see you next time [Music] you

>> From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2020 virtual brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Hi, and welcome back to theCUBE. I'm Joep Piscaer, I'm covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon here remotely from the Netherlands. And I'm joined by Commvault, Mathew Pearson, he's a Senior Product Manager, as well as David Ngo, Vice President of Metallic Products and Engineering to talk about the cloud native space and data protection in the Cloud Native space. So both, welcome to the show. And I want to start off with kind of the why question, right? Why are we here obviously, but also why are we talking about data protection? I thought we had that figured out. So David, can you shed some light on how, data protection is totally different in the cloud native container space? >> Sure, absolutely, thank you. I think the thing to keep in mind is that, containers are an evolution and a revolution actually in the virtualization space in the cloud space. What we're seeing is that customers are turning more and more to SaaS based applications and infrastructure in order to modernize their data centers and their data state in their compute environments. And when they do that, they're looking for solutions that match how they deploy their applications. And SaaS for us is an important area of that space. So, Metallic is Commvault portfolio of SaaS delivered and SaaS native data protection capabilities and offerings to allow customers to take the advantage of the best SaaS that is easy to try, easy to buy, easy to deploy, no infrastructure required and combine that with the technology and experience of Commvault. It'll build over last 20 years to deliver an enterprise grade data protection solution delivered as SaaS. And so, with Kubernetes and deploying in the cloud and modernizing applications I think that's very appealing to customers to also be able to modernize their data protection. >> Yeah, so I get the SaaS part. I mean, SaaS is an important way of delivering services. It is especially in the mid-market, something customers prefer, they want to have that simplicity, that easy onboarding as well as the OPEX of paying a subscription fee instead of longer term fees. So, the delivery model makes sense that fits into, the paradigm of making it simple, getting started easily. I get that, but Metallic isn't a traditional backup solution in that sense, right? It's not backing up necessarily just physical machines or just virtual machines. It has a relevance in the cloud native space. And the way I understand it, and please, if you can shed some light on that, Matt, is how is it different? What does it do that kind of makes it stand apart? >> Yeah, look, what we've found is the application developers can be in control now. So it's not like a traditional backup, that's what's changed. At this point, the application developer is free to create the infrastructure that he or she needs. And that freedom has meant that a bunch of stateful applications, the apps that we didn't think were going to live in Kubernetes have made their way to Kubernetes and they're making their way fast. So why is Metallic different? Because it's taking its lead from the developer. So it's using things like namespaces and label selectors. So basically take input from the developer on what information is important and needs to be protected and then protecting it. So it's your easy button to keep that Kubernetes development protected while you keep pace with the innovation within the organization. >> So you raise a valid point, cloud native has many advantages. It also has an extra challenge to account for which is fragmentation, right? In the olden days, let's call it that. We had a virtual machine, maybe a couple dozen that made up an application. And it was fairly easy to pinpoint the kind of the sort of conference of an application. This is my application. But now with cloud native, applications data can basically live anywhere. In a single cloud vendor, in many different cloud accounts, across different services, even across the public clouds themselves, like in a true multi-cloud scenario and figuring out what is part of an application in that enormous fragmentation is a challenge I think is understated and underestimated in a lot of operational environments with customers, with their applications in production. And that's where I think a product needs to figure out how to make sure an application is still backed up, is still protected in the way that is necessary for that given application. So I wonder how that works with Metallic. How do you kind of figure out what part of that enormous fragmentation is part of a single application? >> Yeah, so Metallic effectively integrates and speaks natively with the kube-apiserver. So it's taking its lead from the system of truth which is the orchestrator, which is Kubernetes itself. So for example, if you say everything in your production namespace needs protection, every night or every four hours, whatever that may be, it steps out and asks Kubernetes what applications exist there. It then maps all of the associated API resources associated with that application including the persistent volumes and persistent volume claims, man throws up and grabs the data from them as well. And that allows us to then reapply or reschedule that application either back to that original cluster or to another one for application mobility, where they are. >> So how do you make sure you, it kind of, what's the central point where everything comes together for that given application? Is that something the developer does as part of their release process or as part of their CICD? How do you figure out what components are part of an application? >> That is definitely a big challenge in the industry today? So, today we use label selectors predominantly. We find developers have been educating us on what works for them. And they've said, "Our CICD system is going "to label everything associated with this app, "as namespaced, then non-named space resources. 'So just here, take my label, grab everything under that, "and you will be good." The reality is that doesn't work for every business. Some businesses drop things into a specific namespace. And then you've got the added challenge that all of your data doesn't actually just live in Kubernetes. What about your image registries? What about it HCD? What about your Source Code Control and CICD systems? So we're finding that even VMs as well are playing a part in this ecosystem right now until applications can fully migrate. >> Yeah, and then let's zoom out on that a little bit. I mean, I think it's great that developers now kind of have flipped the paradigm where backup and data protection used to be something squarely in the OPS domain. It's now made its way into the .dev domain where it's become fairly easy to tag resources as application X, application Y, and then it automatically gets pulled into the backup based on policies. I mean, that's great, but let's zoom out a little bit and figure out, why is this happening? Why are developers even being put in a position of backing up their applications? So David, do you want to shed some light on that for me? >> Sure, I think data protection is always going to be a requirement and you'll have persistent data, right? There are other elements of applications that will always need to be protected and data protection is often something that is an afterthought, but it's something that needs to be considered from the beginning. And Metallic in being able to support deployments, not just in the cloud, but on-premises as well. We support any number of certified distributions of Kubernetes, gives you the flexibility to make sure that there was apps and that data is protected no matter where it lives. Being able to do that from a single pane of glass, being able to manage your Kubernetes deployments in different environments is very important there. >> So let's dive into that a little bit. I hear you say, Certified Kubernetes Distributions. So what's kind of the common denominator we need to use Metallic in an environment? Because I hear On-Prem, I hear public cloud. So it seems to me like this is a pretty broad product in terms of what it supports in its scope. But what's the lowest common denominator for instance, in the On-Prem environment? >> Sure, so we support all CNCF certified distributions of Kubernetes today. And in the cloud, we support Azure with AKS and AWS with EKS. So you can really use the one Metallic environment, the one interface to be able to manage all of those environments. >> And so what about that storage underneath? Is that all through CSI? >> Yes. So we support CSI on the backend of the Kubernetes applications, and we can then protect all the data stored there. >> And so how does this, I mean, you acquired Hedvig about a year ago, I want to say. Not sure on the exact date, but you acquired Hedvig a little while ago. So how does that come into play in Metallic offering? >> Sure, the Hedvig distributed storage platform is a fantastic platform on which to provision and scale Kubernates's applications and clusters. And that having full integration with Kubernetes on the storage side, we support that natively and really builds on the value that Commvault can bring as a whole with all of its offerings as a platform to Kubernetes. >> All right. So, zooming out just a little more, I want to get a feel for the cover of the portfolio of Commvault, as we're ushering into this cloud native era, as we're helping customers make that move and make that transition. What's the positioning of Metallic basically in the transformation customers are going through from On-Prem kind of lift and shift cloud into the cloud native space? >> Yeah, so with today's announcements, our hybrid cloud support and our hybrid cloud initiatives really help customers manage data wherever it lives as I've mentioned earlier. Customers can start with workloads On-Prem and start protecting workloads that they either have migrated or starting to build in the cloud natively and really cover the gamut of infrastructure and hypervisors and file systems and storage locations amongst all of these locations. So from our perspective, we think that hybrid is here to stay, right? There are very few customers who are either going to be all on-premises or all in the cloud. Most customers have some requirement that keeps them in a hybrid configuration, and we see that being prevalent for quite some time. So supporting customers in their transformation, right? Where they are moving applications from on-premises to the cloud, either refactoring or lift and shift, or what have you. It's very important to them, it's very important for us to be able to support that motion. And we look forward to helping them along the way. >> Awesome, so one last question for Matt. I mean, Metallic is a set of servers, right? That means you run it, you operate it, you build it. So I wonder, is Metallic itself cloud native? How does it scale? What are kind of the big components that Metallic has made up of? >> So Metallic itself is absolutely cloud native. It is sitting inside Azure today. I won't go into all the details. In fact, David could probably provide far more detail there. But I think Metallic is cloud native with respect to the fact that it's speaking natively to your applications, your cloud instances, your Vms. And then it's giving you the agility and the ability to move them where you need them to be. And that's assisting people in that migration. So in the past, we helped people get from P to V. Now that there are virtualized, applications like Metallic can protect you wherever you are and get you to wherever you need to be, especially into your next cloud of choice. And there's always another cloud. What I'm interested to see and what I'm hoping to see out of KubeCon is how are we doing with KubeVirt and Kubernetes becoming the orchestrator of the data center. And how are we doing with some of these other projects like application CRDs and hierarchical namespaces that are truly going to build a multi-tenanted software defined, distributed application ecosystem, that Metallic I can speak natively to via Kubernetes. >> Awesome. Well, thank you both for being with me here today. I certainly learned a ton about Metallic. I learned a lot about the challenges in cloud native that'll certainly be an area of development in the next couple of years. As you know, that the CNCF will continue to support projects in this space and vendors to work with us in that space as well. So that's it for now. I'm Joep Piscaer, I'm covering for KubeCon here remotely from the Netherlands. I will see you next time, thanks. (bright upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2020, virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Joep Piscaer. Welcome to theCUBEs coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2020. So I'm joined today by Matt Kixmoeller, he's VP of strategy at Pure Storage, as well as Michael Ferranti, he's the senior director of product marketing at Portworx now acquired by Pure Storage. Fellows, welcome to the show. >> Thanks here. >> I want to start out with you know , how about the lay of the land of storage in the Cloud Native space in the Kubernetes space. You know, what's hard? what's happening? What are the trends that you see going on? Matt, if you could shed some light on that for me? >> Yeah, I think you know, from a Pure point of view obviously we just told customers will they maturing their comprehensive deployments and particularly leaning towards persistant, you know applications and so you know we noticed within our customer base that there was quite a lot of deployments of a Portworx on Pure Storage. And that inspired us to start talking to one another you know, almost six plus months ago that eventually ended in us bringing the two companies together. So it's been a great journey from the Pure point of view, bringing Portworx into the Pure family. And, you know, we're working through now with our joint customers, integration strategies and how to really broaden the use of the technology. So that's quite exciting times for us. >> And of course, it's good to hear that the match goes beyond just the marketing color, like the brand color. >> Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the fact that both companies were orange and you know, their logo looked like kind of a folded up version of ours, just started things off on the right foot >> A match made in heaven, right? So I want to talk a little bit about you know, the acquisition, what's happened there and especially, you know looking at Portworx as a company, and as a product set, it's fairly popular in the cloud community. A lot of traction with customers. So I want to zoom in on the acquisition itself and kind of the roadmap going forward merging the two companies and adding Portworx to that Pure portfolio. Matt, if you could shed some light on that as well. >> Yeah. Why don't I start and then Michael can jump in as well? So, you know, we at Pure had been really working for years now to outfit our all flash storage arrays for the container use case and shipped a piece of software that we call PSO. That was really a super CSI driver that allowed us to do intelligent placement of you know, persistent volumes on Pure arrays. But the more time we spent in the market, the more we just started to engage with customers and realized that there were a whole number of use cases that didn't really want a hardware based solution, you know. They either wanted to run completely in the cloud, hybrid between on-prem and cloud and leverage bare metal hardware. And so you know, we came to the conclusion that you know, first off, although positioning arrays for the market was the right thing to do, we wouldn't really be able to serve the broader needs restoratively for containers, if you did that. And then, you know, the second thing I think was that we heard from customers that they wanted a much richer data management stack. You know, it's not just about providing the business versus the volume for the container, but you know, all the capabilities around snapshoting and replication and mobilization and mobility between on-prem and cloud were necessary. And so, you know, Portworx we bought to bear not only a software based solution into our portfolio, but really that full data management stack platform in addition to just storage. And so as we look to integrate our product lines you know, we're looking to deliver a consistent experience for data management, for Kubernetes whatever infrastructure customer would like to, whether they want to run on all flash arrays, white box servers, bare metal, VMs or on cloud storage as well. You know, all of that can have a consistent experience with the Portworx platform. >> Yeah, and because you know, data management especially in this world of containers is you know, it's a little more difficult it's definitely more fragmented across you know, multiple clouds, multiple cloud vendors, multiple cloud services, multiple instances of a service. So the fragmentation has you know, given IT departments quite the headache in operationally managing all that. So Michael you know, what's kind of the use case for Portworx in this fragmented cloud storage space. >> Yeah. It's a great question. You know, the used cases are many and varied, you know to put it in a little bit of historical perspective you know, I've been attending coupons either (indistinct) for about five or six years now, kind of losing count. And we really started seeing Kubernetes as kind of an agile way to run CI/CD environments and other test dev environments. And there were just a handful of customers that were really running production workloads at the very, very beginning. If you fast forward to today, Kubernetes is being used to tackle some of the biggest central board level problems that enterprises face, because they need that scale and they need that agility. So you know, COVID's accelerated that. So we see customers say in the retail space, who are having to cope with a massive increase in traffic on their website. People searching for kind of you know, the products that they can't find anywhere else. Are they available? Can I buy them online? And so they're re-architecting those web services to use often open source databases in this case Elasticsearch, in order to create a great user experiences. And they're managing that across clouds and across environments using Kubernetes. Another customer that I would say kind of a very different use case but also one that matches that scale would be Esri which unfortunately the circumstances of becoming a household name are a lot of the covert tracking ArcGIS system to keep track of, tracing and outbreaks. They're running that service in the cloud using Portworx. And again, it's all about how do we reliably and agilely deploy applications that are always available and create that experience that our customers need. And so we see kind of you know, financial services doing similar things healthcare, pharmaceutical, doing similar things. Again, the theme is it's the biggest business problems that we're using now, not just the kind of the low hanging fruit as we used to talk about. >> Yeah exactly. Because you know storage, is it a lot of the times it's kind of a boiler plate functionality you know, it's there it works. And if it doesn't, you know, the problem with storage in a cloud data space is that fragmentation right? Is that enormous you know, on the one hand that you don't have a scale on the other hand, the tons of different services that can hold data that need protecting as well as data management. So I want to zoom in on a recent development in the Portworx portfolio where the PX backup product has spun out its own little product. You know, what's the strategy there, Michael? >> Yeah, so I think, you know fundamentally data protection needs to change in a Kubernetes context. The way in which we protected applications in the past was very closely related to the way in which we protected servers. Because we would run one app per server. So if we protected the server our application was protected. Kubernetes breaks that model now an individual application is made up of dozens or hundreds of components that are spread across multiple servers. And you have container images, you have configuration I mean you have data, and it's very difficult for any one person to understand where any of that is in the cluster at any given moment. And so you need to leverage automation and the ability for Kubernetes to understand where a particular set of components is deployed and use that Kubernetes native functionality to take what we call application aware backups. So what PX backup provides is data protection engineered from the ground up for this new application delivery model that we see within Kubernetes. So unlike traditional backup and recovery solutions that were very machine focused, we can allow a team to back up a single application within their Kubernetes cluster, all of the applications in a namespace or the entire cluster all at once, and do so in a self-service manner where integrated with your corporate identity systems individuals can be responsible for protecting their own applications. So we marry kind of a couple of really important concepts. One is kind of the application specific nature of Kubernetes the self service desire of DevOps teams, as well as with the page you go model, where you can have this flexible consumption model, where as you grow, you can pay more. You don't have to do an upfront payment in order to protect your Kubernetes applications. >> Yeah. I think one key thing that Michael hit on was just how this obligation is designed to fit like a glove with the Kubernetes admin. I see a lot of parallels to what happened over a decade ago in the VMware space when you know, VMware came about they needed to be backed up differently. And a little company called Veem built a tool that was purpose-built for it. And it just had a really warm embrace by the VMware community because it really felt like it was built for them, not some legacy enterprise backup application that was forced to fit into this new use case. And you know, we think that the opportunity is very similar on Kubernetes backup and perhaps the difference of the environment is even more profound than on the VMware side where you know, the Kubernetes admin really wants something that fits in their operational model, deploys within the cluster itself, backs up to object storage. Is just perfect purpose-built for this use case. And so we see a huge opportunity for that, and we believe that for a lot of customers, this might be the easiest place for them to start trying to Portworx portfolio. You know, you've got an existing competitors cluster download this, give it a shot, it'll work on any instructions you've got going with Kubernetes today. >> And especially because, you know, looking at the kind of breakdown of Kubernetes in a way data is, you know, infrastructure is provisioned. Data is placing in cloud services. It's no longer the cluster admin necessarily, that gets to decide where data goes, what application has access to it, you know, that's in the hands of the developers. And that's a pretty big shift you know, it used to be the VI admin the virtualization admin that did that, had control over where data was living, where data was accessed out, how it was accessed. But now we see developers kind of taking control over their infrastructure resources. They get to decide where it runs, how it runs what services to use, what applications to tie it into. So I'm curious, you know, how our Portworx and PX backup kind of help the developer stay in control and still have that freedom of choice. >> Yeah, we think of it in terms of data services. So I have a database and I needed to be highly available. I needed to be encrypted, backed up. I might need a DR. An off site DR schedule. And with Portworx, you can think about adding these services HA, security, backup, capacity management as really just I want to check a box and now I have this service available. My database is now highly available. It's backed up, it's encrypted. I can migrate it. I can attach a backup schedule to it. So 'cause within a Kubernetes cluster some apps are going to need that entire menu of services. And some apps might not need any of those services because we're only in Testa phage, everything is multiplexed into a single cluster. And so being able to turn off and turn on these various data services is how we empower a developer, a DevOps team to take an application all the way from test dev, into production, without having to really change anything about their Kubernetes deployments besides, you know, a flag within their YAML file. It makes it really, really easy to get the performance and the security and the availability that we were used to with VM based applications via that admin now within Kubernetes. >> So Matt, I want to spend the last couple of minutes talking about the bigger picture, right? We've talked about Portworx, PX backup. I want to take a look at the broader storage picture of cloud native and kind of look at the Pure angle on the trends on what you see happening in this space. >> Yeah absolutely. You know, a couple of high-level things I would, you know, kind of talk about, you know, the first buzz that I think, you know hybrid cloud deployments are the de facto now. And so when people are picking storage, whether they be you know, a storage for a traditional database application or next gen application, cloud native application, the thought from the beginning is how do I architect for hybrid? And so you know, within the Pure portfolio, we've really thought about how we build solutions that work with cloud native apps like Portworx, but also traditional applications. And our cloud block store allows you know, those to be mobilized to the cloud without, with minimal re-architecture. Another big trend that we see is the growth of object storage. And, you know if you look at the first generation of object storage, object storage is what? 15 plus years old and many of the first deployments were characterized by really low costs low performance, kind of the last retention layer if you will, for unimportant content. But then this web application thing happens and people started to build web apps that used object storage as their primary storage. And so now, as people try to bring those cloud native applications on-prem and build them in a multicloud way there's a real growth in the need for you know, high-performance kind of applications object storage. And so we see this real change to the needs and requirements on the object storage landscape. And it's one that in particular, we're trying to serve with our FlashBlade product that provides a unified file and object access, because many of those applications are kind of graduating from file or moving towards object, but they can't do that overnight. And so being able to provide a high-performance way to deliver unstructured data (indistinct) object files solve is very strategic right now. >> Well, that's insightful. Thanks. So I want to thank you both for being here. And, you know, I look forward to hearing about Portworx and Pure in the future as is acquisition. You know, it integrates and new products and new developments come out from the Pure side. So thanks both for being here and thank you at home for watching. I'm Joep Piscaer, thanks for watching the theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2020. Thanks. >> Yeah. Thanks too. >> Yeah. Thank you. (gentle music)

from around the globe it's thecube with coverage of kubecon and cloudnativecon north america 2020 virtual brought to you by red hat the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners hello and welcome back to the cube's coverage of kubecon plus cloud nativecon 2020 the virtual edition abinav joshi is here he's the senior product marketing manager for openshift at red hat and tom dean is the senior director of pro product management at cloudera gentlemen thanks for coming on thecube good to see you thank you very much for having us here hey guys i know you would be here it was great to have you and guys i know you're excited about the partnership and i definitely want to get in and talk about that but before we do i wonder if we could just set the tone you know what are you seeing in the market tom let's let's start with you i had a great deep dive a couple of weeks back with anupam singh and he brought me up to speed on what's new with cloudera but but one of the things we discussed was the accelerated importance of data putting data at the core of your digital business tom what are you seeing in the marketplace right now yeah absolutely so um overall we're still seeing a growing demand for uh storing and and processing massive massive amounts of data even in the past few months um where perhaps we see a little bit more variety is on by industry sector is on the propensity to adopt some of the latest and greatest uh technologies that are out there or that we we deliver to the market um so whether perhaps in the retail hospitality sector you may see a little bit more risk aversion around some of the latest tools then you you go to the healthcare industry as an example and you see we see a strong demand for our latest technologies uh with with everything that is that is going on um so overall um still a lot lots of demand around this space so abnormal i mean we just saw in ibm's earnings though the momentum of red hat you know growing in the mid teens and the explosion that we're seeing around containers and and obviously openshift is at the heart of that how the last nine months affected your customers priorities and what are you seeing yeah we've been a lot more busier like in the last few months because there's like a lot of use cases and if you look at the like a lot of the research and so on and we are seeing that from our customers as well that now the customers are actually speeding up the digital transformation right people say that okay kovac 19 has actually uh speeded up the digital transformation for a lot of our customers for the right reasons to be able to help the customers and so on so we are seeing a lot of attraction on like number of verticals and number of use cases beyond the traditional lab dev data analytics aiml messaging streaming edge and so on like lots of use cases in like a lot of different like industry verticals so there's a lot of momentum going on on openshift and the broader that portfolio as well yeah it's ironic the the timing of the pandemic but it sure underscores that this next 10 years is going to be a lot different than the last 10 years okay let's talk about some of the things that are new around data tom cloudera you guys have made a number of moves since acquiring hortonworks a little over two years ago what's new with uh with the cloudera data platform cdp sure so yes our latest therap uh platform is called cbp clara data platform last year we announced the public cloud version of cdp running on aws and then azure and what's new is just two months ago we announced the release of the version of this platform targeted at the data center and that's called cvp private cloud and really the focus of this platform this new version has been around solving some of the pain points that we see around agility or time to value and the ease of use of the platform and to give you some specific examples with our previous technology it could take a customer three months to provision a data warehouse if you include everything from obtaining the infrastructure to provisioning the warehouse loading the data setting security policies uh and fine-tuning the the software now with cbp private cloud we've been able to take those uh three months and turn it into three minutes so significant uh speed up in in that onboarding time and in time to valley and a key piece of this uh that enabled this this speed up was a revamping of the entire stack specifically the infrastructure and service services management layer and this is where the containerization of the platform comes in specifically kubernetes and red hat open shift that is a key piece of the puzzle that enables this uh order of magnitude uh improvement in time right uh now abner you think about uh red hat you think about cloudera of course hortonworks the stalwarts of of of open source you got kind of like birds of a feather how are red hat and cloudera partnering with each other you know what are the critical aspects of that relationship that people should be aware of yeah absolutely that's a very good question yeah so on the openshift side we've had a lot of momentum in the market and we have well over 2000 customers in terms of a lot of different verticals and the use cases that i talked about at the beginning of our conversation in terms of traditional and cloud native app dev databases data analytics like ai messaging and so on right and the value that you have with openshift and the containers kubernetes and devops like part of the solution being able to provide the agility flexibility scalability the cross cloud consistency like so all that that you see in a typical app dev world is directly applicable to fast track the data analytics and the ai projects as well and we've seen like a lot of customers and some of the ones that we can talk about in a public way like iix rbc bank hca healthcare boston children's bmw exxon mobil so all these organizations are being are able to leverage openshift to kind of speed up the ai projects and and help with the needs of the data engineers data scientists and uh and the app dev folks now from our perspective providing the best in class uh you say like experience for the customers at the platform level is key and we have to make sure that the tooling that the customers run on top of it uh gets the best in class the experience in terms of the day zero to day two uh management right and it's uh and and it's an ecosystem play for us and and and that's the way cloudera is the top isv in the space right when it comes to data analytics and ai and that was our key motivation to partner with cloudera in terms of bringing this joint solution to market and making sure that our customers are successful so the partnership is at all the different levels in the organization say both up and down as well as in the the engineering level the product management level the marketing level the sales level and at the support and services level as well so that way if you look at the customer journey in terms of selecting a solution uh putting it in place and then getting the value out of it so the partnership it actually spans across the entire spectrum yeah and tom you know i wonder if you could add anything there i mean it's not just about the public cloud with containers you're seeing obviously the acceleration of of cloud native principles on-prem in a hybrid you know across clouds it's sort of the linchpin containers really and kubernetes specifically linchpin to enable that what would you add to that discussion yeah as part of the partnership when we were looking for a vendor who could provide us that kubernetes layer we looked at our customer base and if you think about who clara is focused on we really go after that global the global 2000 firms out there these customers have very strict uh security requirements and they're often in these highly regulated uh industries and so when we looked at a customer's base uh we saw a lot of overlap and there was a natural good fit for us there but beyond that just our own technical evaluation of the solutions and also talking to uh to our own customers about who they do they see as a trusted platform that can provide enterprise grade uh features on on a kubernetes layer red hat had a clear leadership in in that front and that combined with our own uh long-standing relationship with our parent company ibm uh it made this partnership a natural good thing for us right and cloudera's always had a good relationship with ibm tom i want to stay with you if i can for a minute and talk about the specific joint solutions that you're providing with with red hat what are you guys bringing to customers in in terms of those solutions what's the business impact where's the value absolutely so the solution is called cbd or color data platform private cloud on red hat openshift and i'll describe three uh the three pillars that make up cbp uh first what we have is the five data analytic experiences and that is meant to cover the end to end data lifecycle in the first release we just came out two months ago we announced the availability of two of those five experiences we have data warehousing for bi analytics as well as machine learning and ai where we offer a collaborative data science data science tools for data scientists to come together do exploratory data analytics but also develop predictive models and push them to production going forward we'll be adding the remaining three uh experiences they include data engineering or transformations on uh on your data uh data flow for streaming analytics and ingest uh as well as operational database for uh real-time surveying of both structure and unstructured data so these five experiences have been re-banked right compared to our prior platform to target these specific use cases and simplify uh these data disciplines the second pillar that i'll talk about is the sdx or uh what what we call the shared data experience and what this is is the ability for these five experiences to have one global data set that they can all access with shared metadata security including fine grain permissions and a suite of governance tools that provide lineage provide auditing and business metadata so by having these shared data experiences our developers our users can build these multi-disciplinary workflows in a very straightforward way without having to create all this custom code and i can stitch you can stitch them together and the last pillar that i'll mention uh is the containerization of of the platform and because of containers because of kubernetes we're now able to offer that next level of agility isolation uh and infrastructure efficiency on the platform so give you a little bit more specific examples on the agility i mentioned going from three months to three minutes in terms of the speed up with i uh with uh containers we can now also give our users the ability to bring their own versions of their libraries and engines without colliding with another user who's sharing the platform that has been a big ask from our customers and last i'll mention infrastructure efficiency by re-architecting our services to running a microservices architecture we can now impact those servers in a much more efficient way we can also auto scale auto suspend bring all this as you mentioned bring all these cloud native concepts on premises and the end result of that is better infrastructure efficiency now our customers can do more with the same amount of hard work which overall uh reduces their their total spend on the solution so that's what we call cbp private cloud great thanks for that i mean wow we've seen really the evolution from the the wild west days of you know the early days of so-called big data ungoverned a lot of shadow data science uh maybe maybe not as efficient as as we'd like and but certainly today taking advantage of some of those capabilities dealing with the noisy neighbor problem enough i wonder if you could comment another question that i have is you know one of the things that jim whitehurst talked about when ibm acquired red hat was the scale that ibm could bring and what i always looked at in that context was ibm's deep expertise in vertical industries so i wonder what are some of the key industry verticals that you guys are targeting and succeeding in i mean yes there's the pandemic has some effects we talked about hospitality obviously airlines have to have to be careful and conserving cash but what are some of the interesting uh tailwinds that you're seeing by industry and some of the the more interesting and popular use cases yeah that's a very good question now in terms of the industry vertical so we are seeing the traction in like a number of verticals right and the top ones being the financial services like healthcare telco the automotive industry as well as the federal government are some of the key ones right and at the end of the day what what all the customers are looking at doing is be able to improve the experience of their customers with the digital services that they roll out right as part of the pandemic and so on as well and then being able to gain competitive edge right if you can have the services in your platform and make them kind of fresh and relevant and be able to update them on a regular basis that's kind of that's your differentiator these days right and then the next one is yeah if you do all this so you should be able to increase your revenue be able to save cost as well that's kind of a key one that you mentioned right that that a lot of the industries like the hospitality the airlines and so on are kind of working on saving cash right so if you can help them save the cost that's kind of key and then the last one is is being able to automate the business processes right because there's not like a lot of the manual processes so yeah if you can add in like a lot of automation that's all uh good for your business and then now if you look at the individual use cases in these different industry verticals what we're seeing that the use cases cannot vary from the industry to industry like if you look at the financial services the use cases like fraud detection being able to do the risk analysis and compliance being able to improve the customer support and so on are some of the key use cases the cyber security is coming up a lot as well because uh yeah nobody wants to be hacked and so and and so on yeah especially like in these times right and then moving on to healthcare and the life sciences right what we're seeing the use cases on being able to do the data-driven diagnostics and care and being able to do the discovery of drugs being able to say track kobit 19 and be able to tell that okay uh which of my like hospital is going to be full when and what kind of ppe am i going to need at my uh the the sites and so on so that way i can yeah and mobilize like as needed are some of the key ones that we are seeing on the healthcare side uh and then in terms of the automotive industry right that's where being able to speed up the autonomous driving initiatives uh being able to do uh the auto warranty pricing based on the history of the drivers and so on and then being able to save on the insurance cost is a big one that we are seeing as well for the insurance industries and then but more like manufacturing right being able to do the quality assurance uh at the shop floor being able to do the predictive maintenance on machinery and also be able to do the robotics process automation so like lots of use cases that customers are prioritizing but it's very verticalized it kind of varies from the vertical to a vertical but at the end of the day yeah it's all about like improving the customer experience the revenue saving cost and and being able to automate the business processes yeah that's great thank you for that i mean we we heard a lot about automation we were covering ansible fest i mean just think about fraud how much you know fraud detection has changed in the last 10 years it used to be you know so slow you'd have to go go through your financial statements to find fraud and now it's instantaneous cyber security is critical because the adversaries are very capable healthcare is a space where you know it's ripe for change and now of course with the pandemic things are changing very rapidly automotive another one an industry that really hasn't hadn't seen much disruption and now you're seeing with a number of things autonomous vehicles and you know basically software on wheels and insurance great example even manufacturing you're seeing you know a real sea change there so thank you for that description you know very often in the cube we like to look at joint engineering solutions that's a gauge of the substance of a partnership you know sometimes you see these barney deals you know there's a press release i love you you love me okay see you but but so i wonder if you guys could talk about specific engineering that you're doing tom maybe you could start sure yeah so on the on the engineering and product side um we've um for cbp private cloud we've we've changed our uh internal development and testing to run all on uh openshift uh internally uh and as part of that we we have a direct line to red hat engineering to help us solve any issues that that uh we run into so in the initial release we start with support of openshift43 we're just wrapping up uh testing of and we'll begin with openshift46 very soon on another aspect of their partnership is on being able to update our images to account for any security vulnerabilities that are coming up so with the guidance and help from red hat we've been we've standardized our docker images on ubi or the universal based image and that allows us to automatically get many of these security fixes uh into our into our software um the last point that i mentioned here is that it's not just about providing kubernetes uh red hat helps us with the end to end uh solution so there is also the for example bringing a docker registry into the picture or providing a secure vault for storing uh all the secrets so all these uh all these pieces combined make up the uh a strong complete solution actually the last thing i'll mention is is a support aspect which is critical to our customers in this model our customers can bring support tickets to cluberra but as soon as we determine that it may be an issue that uh related to red hat or openshift where we can use their help we have that direct line of communication uh and automated systems in the back end to resolve those support tickets uh quickly for our customers so those are some of the examples of what we're doing on the technical side great thank you uh enough we're out of time but i wonder if we could just close here i mean when we look at our survey data with our data partner etr we see containers container orchestration container management generally and again kubernetes specifically is the the number one area of investment for companies that has the most momentum in terms of where they're putting their efforts it's it's it's right up there and even ahead of ai and machine learning and even ahead of cloud which is obviously larger maybe more mature but i wonder if you can add anything and bring us home with this segment yeah absolutely and i think uh so uh one thing i want to add is like in terms of the engineering level right we also have like between cloudera and red hat the partnership and the sales and the go to market levels as well because once you build the uh the integration it yeah it has to be built out in the customer environments as well right so that's where we have the alignment um at the marketing level as well as the sales level so that way we can like jointly go in and do the customer workshops and make sure the solutions are getting deployed the right way right uh and also we have a partnership at the professional services level as well right where um the experts from both the orgs are kind of hand in hand to help the customers right and then at the end of the day if you need help with support and that's what tom talked about that we have the experts on the support side as well yeah and then so to wrap things up right uh so all the industry research and the customer conversation that we are having are kind of indicating that the organizations are actually increasing the focus on digital uh transformation with the data and ai being a key part of it and that's where this strategic partnership between cloudera and and red hat is going to play a big role to help our mutual customers uh through that our transition and be able to achieve the key goals that they set for their business great well guys thanks so much for taking us through the partnership and the integration work that you guys are doing with customers a great discussion really appreciate your time yeah thanks a lot dave really appreciate it really enjoyed the conversation all right keep it right there everybody you're watching thecube's coverage of cubecon plus cloud nativecon north america the virtual edition keep it right there we'll be right back